Cinematic Studio Brass vs.Cinebrass

Consona

Senior Member
Here's another direct comparison between CSB and Cinebrass, each playing the "Raiders March" out of the box, no extra EQ or reverb. (Note: the CSB clip is the one NoamL posted in another thread, hope he doesn't mind my re-posting it here.)

First is CSB, second is Cinebrass.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders-csb-mp3.17344/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders-cb-mp3.17345/][/AUDIOPLUS]
I made a CB mock-up as well since I thought it can sound a little better with some tweaking applied. :grin:

Trombones is the solo one from Pro, since it has better dyn range, trumpets is the ensemle from Core:

I used some highpass eq and noise reduction on the solo trombone since it's noisy out of the box, otherwise no effects. Dunno about the chords at the end, it's hard to nail that sound (I used some weird combination of articulations to make it sound better than just using the standard 1/2 or 1/4 or sus or whatever).

A version with some reverb and eq:
But seems CB sounds great on its own.

I noticed the first note of the theme is shorter in the original but..... (better not to compare it to the original anyway. :laugh:)
 

kevthurman

Active Member
I made a CB mock-up as well since I thought it can sound a little better with some tweaking applied. :grin:

Trombones is the solo one from Pro, since it has better dyn range, trumpets is the ensemle from Core:

I used some highpass eq and noise reduction on the solo trombone since it's noisy out of the box, otherwise no effects. Dunno about the chords at the end, it's hard to nail that sound (I used some weird combination of articulations to make it sound better than just using the standard 1/2 or 1/4 or sus or whatever).

A version with some reverb and eq:
But seems CB sounds great on its own.

I noticed the first note of the theme is shorter in the original but..... (better not to compare it to the original anyway. :laugh:)
A valiant effort but CSB is clearly still miles ahead
 

Consona

Senior Member
I think this could sound very good with SStB also, since there's no legato involved and it has a very nice tone and time machine patches, still waiting for demos from people who own it.
 

Shad0wLandsUK

Senior Member
I own all 4 (CSB, CB, CBPro, Descant Horn) but I'll be reaching for CSB mostly from now on.

Would I still buy CB if I have CSB? No (CSB has better legato, repetition sampling and its wonderful UI). Would I still get CBPro? Maybe (has many FX and monster patches that CSB doesn't, plus 12 horn patches). Would I still get the Descant Horn? Absolutely.

They have different sounds that can factor into your decision but taking into account the price points of CSB and CB and the functionality you get in return, CSB wins out hands down.
But on that note, would you say that you can mix and blend CB with CSB?
I also have CB, CBPro and CBDescant too... so I am curious
 

tehreal

Active Member
But on that note, would you say that you can mix and blend CB with CSB?
I also have CB, CBPro and CBDescant too... so I am curious
With the different mic positions and being able to EQ them separately they can mix fine. CSB is much drier so you would to need to add more room to it.

As I said before though CSB would replace CB for the most part (better programming and lot of the patches have more punch as well as better softer samples). I'd only add in CB bundle for its breadth of specialty patches (FX, chords, etc) as well as the 12 horn sound. And of course the Descant Horn is wonderful.
 

ionian

Member
CSB solo horn compared to Cinebrass Descant solo horn. I don't own CSB so I used @JohnBMears example.

0:00 CSB solo horn
0:11 Descant Horn matching dynamics...about 70% CC1
0:23 Descant Horn with some minor modwheel action

There is also some noodling at the end to show the noise present at higher notes.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-solo-horn-vs-cbd-mp3.17369/][/AUDIOPLUS]
Just to throw a curveball from left field, and just in case anyone's interested in the comparison, here's SampleModeling's "The French Horn" dry (as it naturally comes with no reverb) and with some reverb added (Reverb Foundry's "HD Cart" on the Medium Hall preset), played on a Yamaha WX5 wind controller.

I do love the sound of CSB though and I'm on the fence for a bit now and probably will take the plunge. It has a great sound.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/samplemodelnorvb-mp3.17423/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/samplemodelrvb-mp3.17424/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

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Consona

Senior Member
My current position. I love the SStB sound, but dunno about the playability (but it has time machine patches). I love CSB's playability but I like SStB sound more. I have CB, but CSB really seems to be way better programmed with a way better legato, but CineBrass at least sounds great. But Sample modeling is actually the most playable one... And there's Cinesamples' 90s trumpets also... So... I don't know.

From what I've gathered a lot of brass passages is actually not a legato playing, so for slower things SStB could be enough while for everything else the great sounding shorts with TM patches should do the job. Just thinking out loud. :) I really think Spitfire nailed the brass sound with the Studio Brass, I'm listening to the walkthroughs over and over.
 

Brian Nowak

Active Member
I've been hopping between CSB and CB (I own core and pro) playing around for the last couple of mornings before getting to composing for the day.

I like the tone of cinebrass and sometimes it's exactly the sound I want. It's got that American, punchy, Copland-esque sound. And the MGM stage sounds excellent. The tone is often very good. And there are certain places I will still use it.

But it's scripting is older and not all that great. Many things, like the legato, or the 1/4 and 1/2 shorts with "short release", tend to sound really stiff and mechanical if exposed or pushed beyond a very obvious comfort zone. Most of these issues can be passed off in a mix of other instruments where the brass is not being showcased, or in trailer tracks where you're doubling your brass with aggressive synths and it's more like sound design than anything else. But there's no hiding that legato scripting, which sounds more like 2 separate samples being taped together than actual legato. And also, the instruments in Core just simply don't have a full dynamic range. They top out before they really reach full forte.

The problem I have is that other than some of the tonal characteristics, every time I play CSB after playing CB, CSB just kind of beats the everliving shit out of CB in terms of playability, responsiveness, and overall realism. Stuff that "kind of works" when I play it in CB just flows more effortlessly when I open CSB. The only thing I like better is how CB applies it's double/triple tonguing, which is pretty cool. The CSB "double tonguing" is more like a pickup to a short-ish note than actual double tongued playing. I understand why it behaves that way - the "repetition" articulation has to be followed up by a "staccatissimo" or longer articulation or you get a weird "sucking" sound as the tail is cut off. In earnest, I hope Cinematic Studios releases an update to clean that up - it would be nice to have an actual SHORT short note.
 

Consona

Senior Member
Maybe CineSamples' 90s trumpets + horns (when released) will be the next step in playability with THE sound.
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
My current position. I love the SStB sound, but dunno about the playability (but it has time machine patches). I love CSB's playability but I like SStB sound more. I have CB, but CSB really seems to be way better programmed with a way better legato, but CineBrass at least sounds great. But Sample modeling is actually the most playable one... And there's Cinesamples' 90s trumpets also... So... I don't know.

From what I've gathered a lot of brass passages is actually not a legato playing, so for slower things SStB could be enough while for everything else the great sounding shorts with TM patches should do the job. Just thinking out loud. :) I really think Spitfire nailed the brass sound with the Studio Brass, I'm listening to the walkthroughs over and over.
Yes, it is the sound of SStB that draws me as well.
 

Go To 11

Member
Yeah there is no doubting how awesome the CineSound is. For me it is the scripting in the legato on the Horns. CineSamples said themselves in the update a few years ago that being their first library they had a learning curve. As a brass player who has spent so much time with Berlin Brass and now CSB, that envelope closing and opening on legato transitions sound pretty apparent to me. But the shorts of CineBrass and CineStrings are the some of the most precise out there. Compare it here to CSB.
That was beautifully revealing. Thanks!
 

kavinsky

misty orchard in the middle of Czechoslovakia
Cinebrass and Cinestrings are both great libraries, but I can’t disagree more on the precision of the shorts. Both of the libraries are extremely sloppy in terms of editing, attack speed of the samples.
Nowhere near CSS and CSB which are edited to perfection
 

Scamper

Sample Hooter
Thanks so much - I'm really interested in the sound of the room, without reverb on either. How 'meaty' does the brass sound, what are the early reflections like etc. Just playing the same tune on both, with the opportunity to hear the softest and the loudest, would be amazing. Comparing Horns for Horns or Trumpets for Trumpets would be a great idea, so we can hear how the instruments compare 1 to 1. (As many as you have time for). Thank you!
Sorry for the delay. I'll answer your request from the CSB thread over here.

I've made a couple of comparisons for Cinematic Studio Brass and Cinebrass Core. I don't have CineBrass Pro, so it might be a bit of a different story, if you add it to the mix. It's all without reverb, pretty much out of the box.

Instrument Comparisons
First there are a bunch of comparison for single instruments of both libraries. They all cover the full dynamic range in the sustains. It's always Cinebrass first and CSB second.

For the horn ensembles, Cinebrass has horns a2 and a6, which you will hear in this order. Keep in mind, that the 2 horns only have the 1/8 shorts, the shortest ones, so it's not as versatile.
Also for the Tuba and Bass Trombone with CSB, I first put them together to compare to the Tuba+BassTrombone patch of Cinebrass and then they're also spearate for comparison.
I didn't want to compare the Solo Trombone of CSB against the Trombone ensemble of CineBrass so far, so I left this out.

Ensemble Comparison
To compare the sound of the whole ensemble playing together, I made a little brass track, again with both libraries, starting with Cinematic Studio Brass this time.
Here, I didn't try to max out the dynamics, but tried to keep them somewhat even mostly. CSB certainly has more room to go louder and more quiet.


My Conclusion
Generally I prefer Cinematic Studio Brass over CineBrass Core.

CSB sounds great, has full dynamic range p-ff(f) for every instrument, nice legatos, various shorts and other articulations. For me the solo tuba and solo bass trombone sounds great and were alone worth it, which I was missing with CineBrass and there's also the solo trombone.
It's also very consistent for every patch and it's all very flexible. Still, it cost me more time to deal with the articulations, dynamics and timings, but I think it's worth it.

Having both, I still don't find CineBrass Core redundant. The sound is great, especially in the solo trumpet and horn, but those are also more limited in dynamic range and tonal range. It's generally not that consistent and the dynamic range is a bit narrower, so it might not suit the low dynamics well.
I find it easy to program and for live playing using the sustain pedal and velocity based articulation switches, but this probably works mostly with this limited amount of articulations, but it's a bit leaner on the RAM. The legatos are also nice and there are lots of controls for legato speed, dynamic range and more.

Hope that helps.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cb-csb-solos-horntrumpet-mp3.17591/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cb-csb-trumpets-mp3.17592/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cb-csb-horns-2cb-6cb-4csb-mp3.17593/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cb-csb-trombones-mp3.17594/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cb-csb-tuba-basstrombone-mp3.17595/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

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Go To 11

Member
Sorry for the delay. I'll answer your request from the CSB thread over here.

I've made a couple of comparisons for Cinematic Studio Brass and Cinebrass Core. I don't have CineBrass Pro, so it might be a bit of a different story, if you add it to the mix. It's all without reverb, pretty much out of the box.

Instrument Comparisons
First there are a bunch of comparison for single instruments of both libraries. They all cover the full dynamic range in the sustains. It's always Cinebrass first and CSB second.

For the horn ensembles, Cinebrass has horns a2 and a6, which you will hear in this order. Keep in mind, that the 2 horns only have the 1/8 shorts, the shortest ones, so it's not as versatile.
Also for the Tuba and Bass Trombone with CSB, I first put them together to compare to the Tuba+BassTrombone patch of Cinebrass and then they're also spearate for comparison.
I didn't want to compare the Solo Trombone of CSB against the Trombone ensemble of CineBrass so far, so I left this out.

Ensemble Comparison
To compare the sound of the whole ensemble playing together, I made a little brass track, again with both libraries, starting with Cinematic Studio Brass.
Here, I didn't try to max out the dynamics, but tried to keep them somewhat even mostly. CSB certainly has more room to go louder and more quiet. I didn't go too far with further editing beyond the instruments, but there's a CC11 fade out for CineBrass at the end, otherwise it wouldn't be quiet enough, which you can hear throughout the piece.


My Conclusion
Generally I prefer Cinematic Studio Brass over CineBrass Core.

CSB sounds great, has full dynamic range p-ff(f) for every instrument, nice legatos, various shorts and other articulations. For me the solo tuba and solo bass trombone sounds great and was alone worth it, which I was missing with CineBrass and there's also the solo trombone.
It's also very consistent for every patch and it's all very flexible. Still, it cost me more time to deal with the articulations, dynamics and timings, but I think it's worth it.

Having both, I still don't find CineBrass Core redundant. The sound is great, especially in the solo trumpet and horn, but those are also more limited in dynamic range and tonal range. It's generally not that consistent and the dynamic range is a bit narrower, so it might not suit the low dynamics well.
I find it easy to program and for live playing using the sustain pedal and velocity based articulation switches, but this probably works mostly with this limited amount of articulations, but it's a bit leaner on the RAM. The legatos are also nice and there are lots of controls for legato speed, dynamic range and more.

Hope that helps.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cb-csb-solos-horntrumpet-mp3.17591/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cb-csb-trumpets-mp3.17592/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cb-csb-horns-2cb-6cb-4csb-mp3.17593/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cb-csb-trombones-mp3.17594/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cb-csb-tuba-basstrombone-mp3.17595/][/AUDIOPLUS]
Wow, thank you very very much. This was more comprehensive and industrious than I could have hoped for, and I really appreciate your time. It's amazing how similar the rooms sound and they would blend very nicely. If I had to pick one I think I would go with the slightly smoother legatos and better dynamics of CSB. In isolation, I think the MGM stage is the nicer of the two in that it's slightly denser and warmer, whereas the Sydney stage is a touch brighter. That being said, once you play a piece as a whole (and yours was lovely!), CSB seems more lively and realistic, and the brightness of the room has an extra sparkle to it that may well be lacking in the Cinebrass. This is not what I expected given how muted I find the Cinematic Studio Strings, but that is another story. Thank you so much, again, and happy composing!
 

Hanu_H

Senior Member
Yeah, I think the legatos and dynamics of the sustains sound better in CSB, but sometimes the shorts in CB are better. Still a good library after a many years, I wish they would bring back the old dynamics... :(

-Hannes
 

JohnBMears

Senior Member
Great information everyone! I now know what my custom brass library would be...

1) Legato scripting, dynamic crossfades and GUI of CSB
2) Articulation list and individual-sampled-player aspect of Berlin Brass
3) Recorded in the Sony room (for that CineSamples Tone) + the trumpet ensemble patch & mix mic position
4) As an alternative to the 4Horn patch, I'd also invite the 6Horns patch from Hollywood Brass with the 2Horns patch for chording purposes.
 
OP
ChrisSiuMusic

ChrisSiuMusic

Senior Member
Great information everyone! I now know what my custom brass library would be...

1) Legato scripting, dynamic crossfades and GUI of CSB
2) Articulation list and individual-sampled-player aspect of Berlin Brass
3) Recorded in the Sony room (for that CineSamples Tone) + the trumpet ensemble patch & mix mic position
4) As an alternative to the 4Horn patch, I'd also invite the 6Horns patch from Hollywood Brass with the 2Horns patch for chording purposes.
I’d pick that up before you could say horn.
 

Consona

Senior Member
The playability of CSB is very nice, things feel smoother than with CB, but I love the openness of CB's sound, CSB is not as dark as CSS, but it still feels like there's a blanket over the sound sometimes.
The libraries sound quite similar here, but when the piece comes to the fanfarish part, CB has that nice brassiness while CSB sound is more restrainted. But CSB legatos are way better.

I think I'll wait for how 90s Retro Horns turn out.

@Scamper Thx for the demos!
 
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Gerbil

Active Member
Very interesting. CB can be a bit of a trick to tame at times and it doesn't have a wide dynamic range without resorting to filters and trickery but I did slightly prefer it to CSB in scamper's demo. I can respect that CSB is faster and better programmed though and, judging by this example, there's really not much between the two here. The workflow factor and smoothness of operation is what makes CSB enticing for me.