# 2cAudio Precedence vs. Parallax Audio VSS2



## 98bpm (Jul 20, 2019)

I never sprung for any soundstage processors so far, but have been eyeballing Parallax Audio's VSS2 for some time now. It doesn't seem to ever go on sale and it has been pretty much abandoned from development from what I can tell. Now, I found out about 2cAudio's Precedence, which (I think) is supposed to be create soundstage simulation. From the examples I hear on 2cAudio's (without Breeze2) I mainly just hear left-right modulation effects, but wonder from those of you who own either (or both) of these titles which is preferred for sound quality, ease of use, etc. There are posts out here stating VSS2 produces phasing issues (sadly, no demonstrations or video examples) and I wonder how Precedence deals with that with the modulating imaging present in the demos. Your thoughts?


----------



## hawpri (Jul 20, 2019)

There was a very long break between Parallax Audio's first and second version of Virtual Sound Stage. I think the second was basically a totally different product. I imagine that the third version (if it is completed) will be as different from the second as the second was from the first, but I'm not holding my breath. In hindsight, both versions were overpriced and underwhelming, which was a genuine disappointment. I really wanted to like this product and use it on everything. However, I DO think that it can be very useful as a panning and volume tool for orchestral templates. The stage placement sound just wasn't up to the level it needed to be.

Moving on from my opinions, here are some messages / updates I received as a VSS customer:

"_Hi there,

as my study approaches its end, I am excited to announce that I joined a team to create a new music software in which VSS 3 is going to be integrated. To make sure that what we will create fits your needs, we want to ask you some questions. Please take five minutes to answer this short survey.

Begin Survey
Thank you!   Gabriel from parallax-audio_"

I took the survey and later that same day received this response / newsletter.

_"What is this new software ‘VSS 3 is going to be integrated in’?_
_ 
We don’t want to give away too much at the moment, because the project is still in its initial stage. But we’ll keep you up to date as the development progresses. The customer survey was so insightful and you shared so many amazing ideas that we would love to build a steady feedback loop with you guys. When we have settled all the basics I will send you an email where those of you who are interested can subscribe as alpha testers and advisors.

What about VSS 2.0?
_
_Before the new project will overwhelm me with work I will be able to release an update of VSS 2.0 with some crucial features you have requested. The version is currently in the testing phase and I hope to release it within the next two months."_

A few months later in May of 2018 there was an update, version 2.0.1:

_"__Hi there,

a new update for Virtual Sound Stage has been released. Besides some some general improvements, it includes two useful new features:

Groups
Instances can now be organized in 8 separate groups, each with its own stage and microphone setup.

Early Reflection Diffusor_
_A new optional diffusor has been added to the Early Reflections section. It's designed for very dry and percussive sounds, but can add a smoother feel to the early reflections on any input material.

Additionally, some of the parameters can now be automated._"

There may have been other updates, but during the last couple years I unsubscribed from a wide variety of audio and music related newsletters, so it's possible there has been progress and teases, but we'll see. Or maybe other people will see. I can't speak for other products that VSS competes with, but you're sure to find knowledgable users here who can fill you in, or even posts from people who have already discussed some specifics in detail.


----------



## 98bpm (Jul 20, 2019)

hawpri said:


> There was a very long break between Parallax Audio's first and second version of Virtual Sound Stage. I think the second was basically a totally different product. I imagine that the third version (if it is completed) will be as different from the second as the second was from the first, but I'm not holding my breath. In hindsight, both versions were overpriced and underwhelming, which was a genuine disappointment. I really wanted to like this product and use it on everything. However, I DO think that it can be very useful as a panning and volume tool for orchestral templates. The stage placement sound just wasn't up to the level it needed to be.
> 
> Moving on from my opinions, here are some messages / updates I received as a VSS customer:
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the feedback. I presume your position on VSS2 is even after the 2.0.1 update leaving it still subpar. May I ask, what do you currently use for stage placement of your instruments?


----------



## Dewdman42 (Jul 20, 2019)

I use mirpro and it is superb


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 20, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> I use mirpro and it is superb



?


----------



## hawpri (Jul 20, 2019)

98bpm said:


> Thank you very much for the feedback. I presume your position on VSS2 is even after the 2.0.1 update leaving it still subpar. May I ask, what do you currently use for stage placement of your instruments?


You're welcome. I'm not using VSS2 or 2.0.1 now. I should try it as a panning tool, though.

The way I've handled working without a stage placement plugin is with panning, EQ, impulse responses (from sample library purchases), and a tiny amount Valhalla Room (algorithmic reverb) for a more consistent reverb tail, but almost everything is from developers who recorded in position anyway. I've tried to use drier, but not close mic settings, to EQ instruments to not stand out, and have added a little algorithmic reverb on top of to help the reverb tail not seem too mismatched. It's not perfect but it's good enough.

Other forum users will probably have better insight on stage placement and reverb. There has been a lot of discussion on it here over the years.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Jul 20, 2019)

98bpm said:


> I never sprung for any soundstage processors so far, but have been eyeballing Parallax Audio's VSS2 for some time now. It doesn't seem to ever go on sale and it has been pretty much abandoned from development from what I can tell. Now, I found out about 2cAudio's Precedence, which (I think) is supposed to be create soundstage simulation. From the examples I hear on 2cAudio's (without Breeze2) I mainly just hear left-right modulation effects, but wonder from those of you who own either (or both) of these titles which is preferred for sound quality, ease of use, etc. There are posts out here stating VSS2 produces phasing issues (sadly, no demonstrations or video examples) and I wonder how Precedence deals with that with the modulating imaging present in the demos. Your thoughts?


You might want to look at EAReverb 2 as well, as it's similar in concept to VSS2, Precedence, and MIR. It's cheap, easy to use, and provides both the ER and tails (and you can toggle them on/off independently). I think I got it for around $100 on sale Black Friday. It's my go-to.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 21, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> You might want to look at EAReverb 2 as well, as it's similar in concept to VSS2, Precedence, and MIR. It's cheap, easy to use, and provides both the ER and tails (and you can toggle them on/off independently). I think I got it for around $100 on sale Black Friday. It's my go-to.




+1 for EAReverb.


----------



## 98bpm (Jul 21, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> You might want to look at EAReverb 2 as well, as it's similar in concept to VSS2, Precedence, and MIR. It's cheap, easy to use, and provides both the ER and tails (and you can toggle them on/off independently). I think I got it for around $100 on sale Black Friday. It's my go-to.


Tell me, does EAReverb have a setup where you can have a single screen for all the tracks sent to the plugin like VSS2 and control them all from there or do you have to have multiple instances for the tracks/groups? I thought that was a pretty cool feature in VSS2 but got cold feet after reading the comments about its sound and the fact that it never goes on sale.


----------



## 98bpm (Jul 21, 2019)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> +1 for EAReverb.


I just watched their trailer on YouTube and saw it required 21 instances of EAReverb2 for the trailer. That's a lot. Is there a single interface to control all those instances?


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Jul 21, 2019)

Like this?





If so, yes this is the default behavior. The blue labels I added later in Photoshop, the UI just shows the numbers. You can get more details in this post.



98bpm said:


> Is there a single interface to control all those instances?


Each instance will show the position of all instances. However it only lets you move the one you currently have open, (which is the lower left one in the picture above). So if you are in the violin 1 (as above) and you want to move the bass, you'd have to open the instance on the bass. I've not found it to be a problem.

Maybe there's a demo version you can try out?


----------



## chibear (Jul 21, 2019)

I demoed VSS1 and didn't like it at all. Demoed VSS2 and bought it right away. At the very least it's a very fast and easy to use graphical panning tool. There's been some criticism concerning the sound of the provided early reflections on a thread here in VI forums, but in the same thread someone pointed out that they (the ERs) play nice with EWQL Spaces which is the way I use it. IMO a good starting point from which you can upgrade later if you find it lacking and want to deal with the complexity of more expensive VSTs.


----------



## 98bpm (Jul 21, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great! Thanks for that visual. Do the numbered circles represent the track numbers? I assume they can't be renamed (thus the blue label overlays).


----------



## 98bpm (Jul 21, 2019)

chibear said:


> I demoed VSS1 and didn't like it at all. Demoed VSS2 and bought it right away. At the very least it's a very fast and easy to use graphical panning tool. There's been some criticism concerning the sound of the provided early reflections on a thread here in VI forums, but in the same thread someone pointed out that they (the ERs) play nice with EWQL Spaces which is the way I use it. IMO a good starting point from which you can upgrade later if you find it lacking and want to deal with the complexity of more expensive VSTs.


Interesting. Rookie question for you, if you don't mind: why use both the early reflections from VSS2's rooms along with EWQL Spaces seeing that they're both impulse responses of actual spaces?


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Jul 21, 2019)

98bpm said:


> Do the numbered circles represent the track numbers? I assume they can't be renamed (thus the blue label overlays).


It's actually the number of instances, not the track number. So if you open your first instance on track 20 and the second on track 30, you'll still see 1 (for the first instance) and 2 (for the second). I haven't looked at the manual, so it's possible that there are options to change this. I've just not felt the need to.


----------



## ChristianM (Jul 21, 2019)

I would like liquidsonics to offer us something ...


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Jul 21, 2019)

ChristianM said:


> I would like liquidsonics to offer us something ...


I've actually used EAReverb and Seventh Heaven together and they pair nicely! I send to EAReverb for early reflections, just to put it in a room (keeping the tails disabled), then send to Seventh Heaven for tails.


----------



## chibear (Jul 21, 2019)

98bpm said:


> Interesting. Rookie question for you, if you don't mind: why use both the early reflections from VSS2's rooms along with EWQL Spaces seeing that they're both impulse responses of actual spaces?


Ha! Not much more than a rookie myself in the engineering department, but read about it on VI Control and played around with it. To my ears I get the best sound with Spaces and the ERs of VSS2 turned down about 1/2 way. Personal preference.


----------



## Montisquirrel (Jul 21, 2019)

I have VSS2 and I use it all the time. I dont know much about the details of panning and reverb and early reflections and all that stuff, I just do what sounds good to my ears. VSS2 helps me alot with the easy to use interface. If I remember correct here is a free demo which you can try.


----------



## Rob (Jul 21, 2019)

Montisquirrel said:


> I have VSS2 and I use it all the time. I dont know much about the details of panning and reverb and early reflections and all that stuff, I just do what sounds good to my ears. VSS2 helps me alot with the easy to use interface. If I remember correct here is a free demo which you can try.


+1 use it often, I find the e.r. very clean, probably algo rather than real. This is why they blend so well with impulse responses. I don't care getting very strange instrument seating, as long as it sounds good...


----------



## Shredoverdrive (Jul 21, 2019)

chibear said:


> Ha! Not much more than a rookie myself in the engineering department, but read about it on VI Control and played around with it. To my ears I get the best sound with Spaces and the ERs of VSS2 turned down about 1/2 way. Personal preference.


That's more or less what I do as well (but I leave more than 1/2 of VSS2's ERs). I use the presets for VSL for my VSL instruments (doh) but also for my Chris Hein Instruments. I'm quite pleased with the result.


----------



## Chris Richter (Jul 21, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I've actually used EAReverb and Seventh Heaven together and they pair nicely! I send to EAReverb for early reflections, just to put it in a room (keeping the tails disabled), then send to Seventh Heaven for tails.


I also tried EAReverb because I wanted to really place instruments into a room. Actually I can't find the mail but I went back and forth with the support (which is awesome) and it turned out the placing doesnt really do "much" besides regular pan and EQ if you like. It actually doesn't create new ERs for every position which is why I don't use it. And in my book those ERs are the important part of the reverb. Its a great verb for sure but the placing is a way to easily pan instruments, not to really "place" them. At least that's my conclusion.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Jul 21, 2019)

CQrity said:


> I also tried EAReverb because I wanted to really place instruments into a room. Actually I can't find the mail but I went back and forth with the support (which is awesome) and it turned out the placing doesnt really do "much" besides regular pan and EQ if you like. It actually doesn't create new ERs for every position which is why I don't use it. And in my book those ERs are the important part of the reverb. Its a great verb for sure but the placing is a way to easily pan instruments, not to really "place" them. At least that's my conclusion.


Thanks, I'll have to look into this further when I get a chance.


----------



## Velcro (Jul 21, 2019)

I think I tried them all...VSS2, Earreverb, SPAT, Altiverb's kludgy spatializing tool, Precedence...
I liked MIR the best by far, for ease of use, quality of results, and even fun factor of the interface.

Sorry OP to be answering a question you never asked. But FWIW you can demo MIR for 30 days free, and if you wait around it comes up in the classified section every now and then. There's also the cheaper MIR 24 version which gives you the same quality, just less channels.


----------



## Chris Richter (Jul 21, 2019)

Does MIR actually provide different ERs for each position?


----------



## Velcro (Jul 21, 2019)

CQrity said:


> Does MIR actually provide different ERs for each position?



Here's their explanation:
_Vienna MIR PRO / MIR PRO 24_ is based on multi-samples with up to 5,000 individual impulse responses (IRs) per room.


Let’s look at what happens when you place a sound source, e.g., a solo horn, on _Vienna MIR PRO’s_ virtual stage of a given concert hall. First of all, the position on stage triggers the selection of one or more sets of 8 impulses (6 for horizontal directions, 2 for upward and downward directions). Equally important, the directivity characteristics of each instrument are applied before the convolution of impulses, making the result dependent on the frequency distribution and the volume an instrument is emitting in various directions. The software engine calculates all of this in real-time, and what you get is what you hear – a solo horn that sounds exactly as if it were playing on that very spot on stage. But you are not limited to those spots that were used for impulse recording in the first place. The Ambisonics format allows for seamless interpolation of each and every point within the available areas of the room.


I assume that means each position has different ER's? I'm no expert. I just know it sounds dope, and that it is fun to move around instruments like little chessmen and hear the results.


----------



## Go To 11 (Nov 2, 2019)

Just adding to this helpful thread to say that for my tastes (which are for drier, clean sounds), I just demoed VSS2, Earverb and MIR and I rate them in that order. VSS2 was the cleanest, most realistic sound without adding too much extra colour IMO. Earverb came second but added too much midtone body to the sound, which introduces EQ problems I don't want, and MIR just added so much to the sound that it muddied the whole thing. But others might disagree. All three are available to demo, thankfully!


----------



## Dewdman42 (Nov 2, 2019)

How much time did you spend with MirPro? Its not an easy tool to master. I'm quite confident you can get better results then you are reporting now and you say it "added so much". I'd encourage you to spend more time with it before giving up on it.


----------



## jon wayne (Nov 2, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> How much time did you spend with MirPro? Its not an easy tool to master. I'm quite confident you can get better results then you are reporting now and you say it "added so much". I'd encourage you to spend more time with it before giving up on it.


If you want a product to get rave reviews, you shouldn't have to tweak it to get good results.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Nov 2, 2019)

jon wayne said:


> If you want a product to get rave reviews, you shouldn't have to tweak it to get good results.



Shouldn't have to tweak it? So are you saying you think you should put a reverb on the track and never turn a knob and should automatically sound brilliant? Good luck with that.

MirPro is an extremely powerful, flexible, detailed product with incredible ability, but yes....it's not going to automatically adjust the settings for you and it does require some time to learn how to adjust the settings, and it isn't actually that hard once you get into it for a bit.


----------



## Go To 11 (Nov 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Shouldn't have to tweak it? So are you saying you think you should put a reverb on the track and never turn a knob and should automatically sound brilliant? Good luck with that.
> 
> MirPro is an extremely powerful, flexible, detailed product with incredible ability, but yes....it's not going to automatically adjust the settings for you and it does require some time to learn how to adjust the settings, and it isn't actually that hard once you get into it for a bit.


Got any pointers? I played around with some stuff in MIR but for my ears, I got a better sound of VSS2, and with much less headache. So even if MIR can equal the sound I've already got, I'd still get VSS2 due to the more intuitive interface. Only if MIR can do better would it be worth all that extra headache. Simply, VSS2 doesn't colour the sound, it just places it further back with realistic ERs, and that's exactly what I wanted. I'm of course happy to be persuaded otherwise, but I felt like I gave MIR a good go!


----------



## Dewdman42 (Jan 3, 2020)

what exactly do you think is more intuitive? I have played around with VSS and never got a single good sound out of it while MIRPro sounds brilliant. But I do have all the room packs. You are right that VSS kind of sounds uncolored, but it also doesn't sound like a real room to me...while MirPro definitely does. Rooms color sounds! 

Perhaps VSS would be an interesting choice for someone that doesn't really want to use real room, but wants to mimic spatialization manually, using a hodge podge of convolution reverbs, etc.. Then VSS might be interesting to add the Early reflection parts, and you can use something like EW Spaces for the tails, etc.. Could be interesting and you can build a synthetic room to whatever sound you like that way. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## jonvog (Jan 15, 2020)

And how do you guys think VSS2, EARverb and MIR compare to precedence/breeze?


----------



## Nyran (Jan 15, 2020)

I haven't used the rest mentioned here but I have VSS1 and VSS2. I didn't like the first version too much and I had some weird phasing issues with some libraries so I dropped it. 
I bought VSS2 which I found a lot better in most respects and I use it on very dry instruments (i.e. SM brass) in conjunction with Spaces II and I like it even though you can't remove the ER on spaces.. I don't really use it on wet libraries.
I have also used it with close mic'd live strings when trying to position them with the rest of the midi orchestra as first chairs.


----------



## jonvog (Jan 15, 2020)

I was giving VSS2 a brief try and I kinda like it. I dig, that you can choose different mic setups. There's a huge difference in the sound of XY or AB for example. So this is nice!


----------



## rrichard63 (Jan 15, 2020)

The deciding factors for me turned out to be support from the developer, and cost. I thought Mir Pro was too expensive for me. On support, see this thread about VSS2:






Has Virtual Sound Stage Become Abandonware?


I was looking into buying VSS and emailed the dev to ask if the license is resellable, but haven't heard back for weeks. Does anyone know if he still does support or has it lapsed into abandonware?




vi-control.net





I ended up with Precedence + Breeze and am quite satisfied so far.


----------



## Jerry Growl (Jan 16, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> I ended up with Precedence + Breeze and am quite satisfied so far.


+1
Same for me. Precedence & Breeze in their latest update prooves to be a powerful, flexibel and greatly adaptable combo imo. Not too pricey either. And very light on cpu.


----------



## Nyran (Jan 17, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> The deciding factors for me turned out to be support from the developer, and cost. I thought Mir Pro was too expensive for me. On support, see this thread about VSS2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unfortunately this is very true of VSS2.


----------



## stfciu (Nov 29, 2020)

Very interested in Precedence now. Not many answers to main topic here though  Maybe someone could elaborate on this more. 
I am wondering however is it capable enough to do some stage placement tweaking for orchestral stuff or is it better to save some money and buy MIR PRO 24.


----------



## 98bpm (Nov 29, 2020)

To my ears, there’s still something odd about Precedence and the way I hear the sounds modulate between left and right. It’s subtle, but still it’s off putting because that’s just not the way I hear sounds naturally. The drum mix and vocal demos on the website really showcase this modulation when listening on headphones. I find it a bit strange. Personal opinion.


----------

