# How does one establish a sync fee....Informations found.



## Valérie_D (May 1, 2018)

Ok, so I did not think I would have to ask here but I have spent countless hours searching for information as to how to price your music, depending on the license required (video game, youtube video, trailer, background music for film, background music for tv, theme for film, theme for tv, commercial (small and big brands).

I know that no fees are absolute but does some kind of approximation, close to a standard exist?

Thanks for sharing or pm me if you want, that would be a tremendous help!

The only thing I have is this and it seems a bit random :


Valérie


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## Desire Inspires (May 1, 2018)

That chart is a good start. I would use that as a guideline and start at the recommended prices as the floor.


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## chillbot (May 1, 2018)

Valérie_D said:


> The only thing I have is this and it seems a bit random :


That is a fairly random chart. Though I don't disagree with it, I've never in my life been paid $99, $199, $499, or $1,999 for anything. $100, $200, $500, $2,000 is a bit more common.


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## gsilbers (May 1, 2018)

that chart might also be talking abotu publishers. as in you get half those numbers and the other half your publisher if your deal is 50/50 split.


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## Valérie_D (May 1, 2018)

I know that there are no standard for the sync license but let's say I am the publisher, how does one establish their license prices..Hum..


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## gsilbers (May 1, 2018)

i guess you can start with that chart. but it also depends on what it is. a realty show might not pay that much for one track if they need 1000 for one show in deep cable.


i placed a semi joking comment in facebook composer group about zedd showing off his $16 million hollywood hills house where he barley knew where the bathroom was.. clearly over the top for him. he did a few songs that where a big hit. which is cool he got paid for that... but i said in the fb post that maybe there should be a "compressor" in salaries so some wont get the gazillion dollars and instead the ones doing less would get a little more.

right now the 1% is getting about 80% of the money. if hans is scoring tons of huge blockbuser movies then of course he should get paid a lot. but maybe instead of getting $1million in composer fees, he could get $800k and the rest would go to someone like mike verta who would get 90k instead of 30k and other composers as well .. dunno.. just day dreaming.

the point of this thread.. is that the licensing and sync fees and deals etc are just the wild west. no ne knows the real numbers and everyone is undercutting everyone else. but somehow we figure it out on the back end. bmi and ascap and other pros are the ones who negotiate w broadcasters and recently streamers to get royalties. we individually are not going after each braodcaster and demanding our fee and hustling royalties and setting up prices. 

therefore.. my view is that maybe weshould have a bmi/ascap that deals with the sync and licensing fees. they could standarize it and we all just use them for any deal .. mostly in the background like we do for royalties.
so if some show wants to use your music they will deal with this entity and you dont have to do anything. even the music libraries would give you your cut and make it that there is no upfront shadyness of keeping writers share or non exclusive retitling stuff and so on.
so muchmusic is being done nowadays and so much towards youtube and smaller mediums that it might actuallt be helpfull.

anyways... just day dreaming.


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## Valérie_D (May 2, 2018)

''we individually are not going after each braodcaster and demanding our fee and hustling royalties and setting up prices.''

It's really interesting and I have been told numerous time that the setting up prices is the wild west, although, with the number of publishers out there who started somewhere and many of them are composers, they are too part of the ''we individually''. I have been approached by the direct client and I am a little clueless as how to set up my prices, there has to be some sort of ''fair'' licensing sync fee depending on the project, if the license is exclusive or not, I might ask a lawyer in music.


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## wst3 (May 2, 2018)

*TL;DR*
(you should see the pages I just deleted!)

There is a marketplace for your talent. It is changing, but it is not shrinking.
The value associated with music production is lower than it once was. 

It remains possible to support one's self by producing music.
You will need to develop allied business skills to support your musical chops (you seem to be well on your way here.)

There are new avenues to pursue, the old ones are not gone though, don't ignore any market!

You alone will have to set your rates - there are resources that can help you get into the right ballpark.

It doesn't hurt to ask here (and elsewhere); you may receive private messages with more information.

Few are going to share their rates - not out of meanness, or anything negative, but for survival, or out of insecurity. (I could write a really long rant on why that is counter productive, but I'll spare everyone!)

A music attorney is your best bet. This has not changed.
Good luck, and please share that which you can as you learn more.


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## Valérie_D (May 2, 2018)

So I spoke with 2 successful but not ''Hollywood successful'' composers from Montreal all afternoon and here are some valuable informations, I think, in CDN dollars : 1 USD =1,28 CAD

It's more in the Composer for hire category but licensing an original track (the price will vary if it's exclusive or not) can be considered working for hire.

Pinar Toprak told me earlier today that yes, the fees greatly vary and the composer's credit will make a difference in the license, package deal, etc.

For everything, it depends of course of the budget production (You get what you accept - Mike Verta).

So here goes :

For FILMS, it's usually 1% of the total budget. This is for scoring the whole film.
In TV-FILMS and COMMERCIALS : They usually perceive the composer as the music producer as well so they will not reserve a budget for the music composer plus a composer's fee. They will give you an ''enveloppe'' and you have to compose, produce and mix.
The fee will go up if there is singing involve.

VIDEOGAMES - BUYOUT: Usually it's between 400 and 800 $/minute.
COMMERCIALS - BUYOUT : It varies greatly : it can be from 3-5k to 10k to a bigger brand, to a much bigger fee, depending on how big is the brand.
In Canada, there is a law that the composer gets a fee each time an ad will be broadcasted for 13 weeks.

TRAILER : Standard fee for a small film : 2k but 3k if the beginning is a tune with a singer.
TEASER : 45 seconds : 1200 $

TV SERIE always depending on the budget : 1000 $ by episode or for something like a CBC serie : 4k to 6k by episode.

CORPORATIVE VIDEO : Between 300-700 $ by minute.

*All of this information comes from the Montreal and Canadian industry.


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## dciurlizza (May 3, 2018)

Hey Valérie! Here are some things maybe worth considering along with what you've found...

*THERE'S A LOT OF MONEY IN MARKETING*

In the trailer and ad world - pretty much anything that has to do with marketing - there's going to be a lot of money involved.

A friend of mine in the game world told me there's a good chance that the marketing budget for a AAA game will match the production cost of the entire game.

And this is for good reason...

Distribution - getting a product in front of people so they're aware if it (and then enticed to buy into it) - is a huge part of making something successful.

Music fees can be extremely high for many types of projects because they're _so _important to support the success of a product. Think of your favorite trailer and how you kept replaying it in anticipation of seeing the actual movie.

*THE NUMBERS*

Regarding fees for trailers, we'll see jobs in the thousands all the way up to the hundreds of thousands (USD). Yet, if it's for a non-profit, it may be in the hundreds.

Commercials are the same in that we'll find a wide range of numbers - many in the thousands to tens of thousands range.

As others have already mentioned, that's just the way the industry goes. But there's a beauty in how it works...

*HOW TO COME UP WITH A NUMBER*

I've found that the best way to come up with a $$$ amount is to ask the person who's hiring you what they're able to work with. Everything we do in this industry is a collaboration, after all; it's worth asking what our collaborator's thoughts are.

If they come up with a number we like, we can say yes and be happy with it. If we're not quite satisfied, we can ask if there's room for a little more.

Sometimes their first number will be the limit. Other times, there'll be wiggle room.

Depending on the project, whoever we're working with might not be the people holding the money. As an example, we could be working with an ad agency that's been hired by a tech company, so the ad agency will ask the tech company if it's possible to get the composers more.

If more money isn't possible and we're still not happy about the deal, we have the option of altering the terms of usage, walking away... or just doing it anyway because music is fun! But more times than not, there's room to play.

My agent, Jordan Passman, wrote a great article about how his company negotiates licensing deals.

I'll leave it to him from here on out, but I hope this sheds some more light on what you're looking for!

Here's his post in its entirety:

*'Scoring' The Best Deal: How To Negotiate Without A Standard Price Point*

Hello! For my first share to the group I wanted to address one of the major challenges we face in the music licensing world - the fact that the same song may be worth $500 today, and $50,000 tomorrow. While it can be tricky to appraise the correct value of your music (especially for those who don't have representation to help), I have learned effective practices along the journey of starting my company and compiled a list of five tried and true tips to help you close a deal with confidence.

*1 - Pick up the phone*

With e-mail as today’s preferred form of communication, it’s important to remember the value a verbal dialog. A phone call gives you an opportunity to gain valuable insight into the full scope of a deal, and express your excitement for the project. This is where you can let your personality shine, and elevate the conversation to a position where you are working together, not against each other. Tone and energy are key to a negotiation and on the phone you can observe (and set) your client’s tone much more effectively than e-mail. In my experience, a happy and light-hearted approach is the path of least resistance to a successful deal. I make sure to start a phone call with a positive and friendly energy, which I find to be very contagious for my buyers.

*2 - Don’t say the first number*

SCORE A SCORE’s “name your price” business model has helped us succeed in an industry with inconsistent budgets. Let your buyer tell you the first number. This move will give you the best look into their comfort zone. If you have to say the number first, then you must ask all of the right questions to evaluate the deal. For us, we need to know how the song will be used, where it will live, the length of the term, and other specifics that will help determine a price point. The more aggressive the terms (all media, worldwide, perpetuity, exclusive, etc.), the more expensive the deal should be.

*3 - Be flexible*

If you aren't satisfied with the proposed fee, it can never hurt to ask for more. Much of the time, the first number on the table is a conservative bid, and you never want to walk away wondering if you left money on the table. The best way to approach this situation is from a place of honesty. Of course, first and foremost, you must make sure that the deal is fair for all parties at its base line, and there's no harm in simply asking if your buyer has flexibility to go higher. More often than not, there is. I want my buyers to know that I am flexible and that my top priority is to close the deal. I believe that to be a good and trustworthy negotiator you have to be a great listener.

*4 - Chameleon Negotiating*

Every buyer and deal requires a different approach and style. It’s important to be as perceptive as possible and to tap into your counterpart's psychology. Always consider questions like: what does my buyer want out of this deal? What do they think I want? Are they motivated to keep me satisfied? How hooked are they on the product? And, can we work together to find the best deal?

Embrace your inner chameleon, but always stay true to yourself. Compromise is key, so you must be prepared to set your own boundaries and limits. Keep in mind the numbers and terms that you are comfortable with, and especially the ones that you are not. These will protect you from an unfair deal.

*5 - Keep it transparent and keep it fun*

I fully believe in running a transparent business in every capacity. If you have nothing to hide, be open with your intentions (for us it’s getting our composers the best terms possible for their hard work). Always exhibit trust, empathy and honesty (even for brand new buyers), and they will reciprocate.

A fun and easy deal is as memorable as a painful and stressful one. Never gouge your buyer for the benefit of yourself, even if you have the opportunity to do so. A deal where you make a lot of money and your buyer never wants to work with you again is a huge loss in the long run.

Business is a marathon, not a sprint, built on a foundation of trust - your reputation is everything. Buyers that trust you will end up paying you more down the line, and everyone appreciates honest business practices. A successful deal is one where both parties feel great. Find the middle ground where the value feels fair from all angles and you’ll continue to grow your business.


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## will_m (May 4, 2018)

In the U.K PRS have a pretty in depth rate card for licensing costs. It's updated yearly, and is useful as a rough guide, especially in areas where you may not have licensed before.

https://www.prsformusic.com/licences/using-production-music

There's a download link on the right hand side.


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