# Skip music school and buy a few scores?



## JohnG (Aug 23, 2021)

Hi there,

Just reading through Michael Kamen's score for "The Iron Giant" published by Chris Siddall Music [email protected] It's like an education in harmony and orchestration, just the first cue alone.

If you want to know about scoring for full orchestra you could do a lot worse than just studying this score and a few others. No doubt it would be great to study every bar, but even if you don't have the stomach for that, dipping in here and there, seeing what is clarified and what is deliberately blurred or obscured -- that, How to Train Your Dragon, maybe one or two John Williams scores -- it's like a Masters degree.


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## dcoscina (Aug 23, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Just reading through Michael Kamen's score for "The Iron Giant" published by Chris Siddall Music [email protected] It's like an education in harmony and orchestration, just the first cue alone.
> 
> If you want to know about scoring for full orchestra you could do a lot worse than just studying this score and a few others. No doubt it would be great to study every bar, but even if you don't have the stomach for that, dipping in here and there, seeing what is clarified and what is deliberately blurred or obscured -- that, How to Train Your Dragon, maybe one or two John Williams scores -- it's like a Masters degree.


very true. buying traditional scores for say Daphnis et Chloe or Le Sacre and then attending a live performance is pure gold as well. One really gets a sense of what these masters did with their resources. 

For modern scoring, Omni and Siddall offer wonderful publications that beautifully communicate what the masters were faced with when writing for film. I find the scores exceptionally helpful when studying wind writing in particular.


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## jonathanparham (Aug 23, 2021)

lol. Don't disagree with you, but aren't you baiting a bit with the thread title?


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## Stringtree (Aug 23, 2021)

I could look at a genius architectural plan and miss most, if not all, of what makes it brilliant. I love architecture, but we're not close enough friends for me to see anything deeply. 

Having access to film scores is a beautiful innovation. Knowing a little about music enables anyone who is interested, even me, to have a look and learn. Michael Kamen on paper. That's really cool. Thanks for sharing the excitement about this. I'm going to have a look.


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## dcoscina (Aug 23, 2021)

I would probably surmise even those who were schooled in universities learned a whole lot more practically by doing subsequent to their academic years. I sure did. Unless you were heading for a prof job with commissions on the side, music education in the late 80s did not prepare you on iota for media scoring.... Nowadays with so many resources available, many people can become quite proficient at composing.


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## wilifordmusic (Aug 23, 2021)

But if you don't understand what you are looking at, scores are not terribly useful.

I think some kind of education (self taught or academic) might be a pre-requisite for score study.
Basic notation, theory and harmony are still necessary.

Obvious points, but sometimes it is still necessary to spell things out for others.

And yes, I wish I had back some of the hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars from school.


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## Markrs (Aug 23, 2021)

Music is a language, one that takes time to understand. Reading a complex score with no music readings skills would be as easy as reading a foreign language you never learned.

But just like language once you start learning the basics learning through absorption or scores can become effective.


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## Rudianos (Aug 23, 2021)

There are many roads to get someone somewhere. Its been useful for me to get lots of instrumental performance experience and conducting experience. Score study is great but we also have to get a physical experience. School can be great for that ... but not an end all. And too much theory can be poison. IMO. GL


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## GNP (Aug 23, 2021)

Just skip music.


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## JohnG (Aug 23, 2021)

Well, I mean, duh. You have to be able to read notes and three clefs.

That just doesn't take that long to absorb. Certainly not as long as becoming fluent in a foreign language, and certainly not two to four years at a university; you could learn the basics of reading music in the course of a few months' piano lessons (and supplement alto clef, ok).

If you want to get fast at reading scores, that of course takes rather longer, but you can learn buckets-full even if you have to plod through four bars at a time. Using an abacus. And a quill pen. By candlelight.

If you can't read music or follow chord symbols or play an instrument or sing, that does indeed put you at something of a disadvantage, I concede. (Hopes thread doesn't devolve into "but Paul McCartney couldn't read notation")

*It's Right In Front of Us*

I was moved to post this thread because first, I love "The Iron Giant" as a score (leaving aside that it's a great kids' movie) and also because I can't help feeling I see disproportionate attention paid to libraries and gear. Some seem to spend more time parsing which CPU to buy than reading music of guys who can show you, plain as day, how to do "it."

Agree with @dcoscina particularly about the woodwinds. Dazzling.


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## JohnG (Aug 23, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> I could look at a genius architectural plan and miss most, if not all, of what makes it brilliant.


Fair enough. It is nice to have a teacher if you can actually find one who doesn't bludgeon you with his/her prejudices and predilections.


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## JohnG (Aug 23, 2021)

These scores from Siddall Publishing are less than the cost of a few piano lessons. If you want to write film scores, maybe start with How to Train Your Dragon and skip the classical antecedents.

Nevertheless, if you like the styles of yesteryear (me too), just about anything by Ravel -- the master orchestrator -- maybe some Richard Strauss / Wagner. A lot of people writing film music used to ape "The Pines of Rome," and it's still a fun listen ("Pini di Roma" -- Respighi). Debussy of course

I didn't know the scores were free, but they are in libraries.


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## dcoscina (Aug 23, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Which 5 works with free scores available tends to be the ones people most often recommend?
> 
> I’m guessing Holst “The Planets” is one; think I’ve seen that pop up many times.


There are a few greats in https://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page

I like the Bartok selection and Shostakovich ones. You can also find works by Stravinsky and Debussy and others in here. It's a terrific resource.

@JohnG Kamen's Iron Giant is lovely because it's so classically fashioned. It's not very film score sounding compared to his Die Hard or even Highlander (a personal favourite). I need to pick this one up from Siddall but I'm also holding out for the next Omni release....

I do know what you mean about our community being a touch too focussed on the tech and less about the music at times. I've continually enjoyed going over Goldsmith's Total Recall from Omni and discovered gems in his scoring approach. I wonder whether media scoring is the new gamer thing- some folks are very technologically fluent but I wonder about their music theory vernacular/understanding. Not saying that they are mutually exclusive... I'm honestly curious is all..


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## Geoff Grace (Aug 23, 2021)

I strongly agree about the value of studying scores. They allow us to learn from the best.

As for the value of a college education, a lot depends on where you attend and how you make use of it. My college education allowed me a circumstance in which I was able to conduct my own symphony orchestra. I had to convince faculty advisors to let me create an independent study class and grant me the rehearsal and performance space, and I had to find my own players to perform it; so it wasn't easy. Even so, I can't think of how I could have pulled it off otherwise (with no budget) outside of an academic environment.

I also met other students who helped me climb the ladder after school, as they advanced in their career paths as well.

There's more to a college education than that, but I thought I'd single out two highlights for the purpose of brevity.

Best,

Geoff


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## Romy Schmidt (Aug 23, 2021)

"Skip music school and buy a few scores?"

Blasphemy!


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## Markrs (Aug 23, 2021)

@JohnG please don’t take my post as criticism of the value of score study or Chris Siddalls excellent work and I agree with you point below


JohnG said:


> disproportionate attention paid to libraries and gear.



However I still thing you need a bit more than just reading the notes on the clef, such as understanding different types of scales, modes and chords. I also think an education in general functional harmony would still be important to get a decent understanding of what is in the score.

Getting a decent text book for learning and as a reference can be invaluable as well.


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## mscp (Aug 23, 2021)

The transcriptions seem nice. 



JohnG said:


> These scores from Siddall Publishing are less than the cost of a few piano lessons.


Yes. But what's the point if the customer doesn't meet all the pre-requisites required to read the score? I wouldn't advise anyone to "skip school", especially when dealing with formal sight reading.



JohnG said:


> Fair enough. It is nice to have a teacher if you can actually find one who doesn't bludgeon you with his/her prejudices and predilections.


Bias in musicianship happens to everyone in one way or the other. That's why some can score for superhero stuff really well but crash and burn with other genres, and so forth. It's not a very simple 'black and white' thing to scrutinise, John..and it doesn't invalidate the work of a teacher who follows a particular mindset.


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## Bman70 (Aug 23, 2021)

If someone would write the chord changes above the score like they do with songs.... "4 beats of A, 2 beats of B minor, two beats of E7..." Lol but that would really be amazing. I have a decent working background in harmony but mostly only for songwriting. I feel like I'd miss some chord modulations and changes just looking at the score.


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## JohnG (Aug 23, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Bias in musicianship happens to everyone in one way or the other.


yes indeed, but I like _my_ bias!


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## mscp (Aug 23, 2021)

JohnG said:


> yes indeed, but I like _my_ bias!


Because you have experience with other people's biases. See? education. lol.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 23, 2021)

I had the same realization recently too. There’s a tendency for this forum to attract (and breed) “collectors”. And kudos to developers for continuing to bring out products that are mouth-watering or spark spirited discussions or inspire new horizons. However, I came to the point where I had bought a bunch of the usual suspects, built up a comprehensive template,…and then didn’t write any music with it. Part of that was perhaps a sense of choice paralysis / being overwhelmed by the template (and the Project Colossal template or a dedicated BBCSO-only template have helped with that), but a lot of it was my lack of understanding and knowledge of some fundamentals.

So I put my money elsewhere recently and purchased a number of frequently recommended books on theory, orchestration, score analysis, etc. And I’ve recently completed Scoreclub along with some other score analysis - and I immediately find myself more interested in writing (and less on another library). I still deal with blank page anxiety / writers block, but one thing I’ve found that gets me to _use_ my libraries is mocking up the scores I want to study.

Now there is the flip side of this which is you don’t want to go from a library addiction to an analysis / theory addiction. At some point, you have to say “my knowledge is incomplete” but still start writing. That’s my next challenge - constant composing every week, putting what I’ve learned into practice. I wish I knew of some good composition books that sort of built things brick by brick via short exercises.


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## mscp (Aug 23, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I had the same realization recently too. There’s a tendency for this forum to attract (and breed) “collectors”. And kudos to developers for continuing to bring out products that are mouth-watering or spark spirited discussions or inspire new horizons. However, I came to the point where I had bought a bunch of the usual suspects, built up a comprehensive template,…and then didn’t write any music with it. Part of that was perhaps a sense of choice paralysis / being overwhelmed by the template (and the Project Colossal template or a dedicated BBCSO-only template have helped with that), but a lot of it was my lack of understanding and knowledge of some fundamentals.



Well, the forum _is_ called VI-Control. hehe. G.A.S is #1 priority over here.

That's why buying an ensemble-based library (Inspire/Albion) first has always been my #1 recommendation. Same with modular gear. Some people have laughed over the fact I told them to get a Korg Volca as their first synth..but what's the purpose of getting a, let's say, Novation Peak, if the user doesn't understand how oscillators, envelopes, filters, VCAs, ... work (well)? Solid fundamentals are everything.

In respect to VI, building a massive template just for the sake of having it - does only harm, especially in the beginning. So if there's no real intention to speed the workflow, why spend time on it? Waste of time.

That's why I praise schools such as Berklee, Julliard, ... They provide students with a curriculum that spans years, and "limits" the student to spend a significant time on a particular subject...because...

Teaching yourself [well] requires a LOT of discipline, time, and most importantly: *Patience and Focus.* There isn't any shortcut, despite several people have claimed to find "the method". 



ALittleNightMusic said:


> “my knowledge is incomplete” but still start writing.



Once you start working professionally, you will realise that you'll be constantly studying (unless you become a "typecast" writer).


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 23, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> In respect to VI, building a massive template just for the sake of having it - does only harm, especially in the beginning. So if there's no real intention to speed the workflow, why spend time on it? Waste of time.
> 
> That's why I praise schools such as Berklee, Julliard, ... They provide students with a curriculum that spans years, and "limits" the student to spend a significant time on a particular subject...because...


Limitation seems to be the key to success  Lot of people here (myself included) that have bought libraries only to not understand 90% of their power or how to get the best out of them and for which purpose. And yet we keep buying, blind to what gap we are trying to fill with our current arsenal.

I continue to say BBCSO is a great place to start because it gives you the full classic orchestra - so much to learn and explore with that.

I will also say that had I started studying scores without understanding fundamentals (beyond notation), I would not be able to takeaway many important aspects - compositional form, harmony, orchestration ideas, etc. Unfortunately for me, all these great composers are / were much smarter and more clever than me, so even the score study can be a challenge that boggles my simple mind. "How in the world do you think of that?" is often said aloud.


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## Geoff Grace (Aug 23, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Limitation seems to be the key to success


It can help at times. Keith Jarrett certainly did well with just a piano.

Best,

Geoff


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## jonathanparham (Aug 23, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Well, I mean, duh. You have to be able to read notes and three clefs.
> 
> That just doesn't take that long to absorb. Certainly not as long as becoming fluent in a foreign language, and certainly not two to four years at a university; you could learn the basics of reading music in the course of a few months' piano lessons (and supplement alto clef, ok).
> 
> ...


I cannot get my kids to watch Iron Giant. Dang it


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## Niah2 (Aug 23, 2021)

Didn't know about this score, It's so vibrant and lively. Great orchestration indeed, pretty inspiring.

I'm loving it !


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## toddkreuz (Aug 23, 2021)

I dont see Michael Kamen talked about enough around here. He's friggin brilliant.


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## rgames (Aug 23, 2021)

Markrs said:


> However I still thing you need a bit more than just reading the notes on the clef, such as understanding different types of scales, modes and chords. I also think an education in general functional harmony would still be important to get a decent understanding of what is in the score.


There are different types of understanding. I was a performing musician for decades (clarinet) before I got into writing music and I had none of that kind of *explicit* knowledge when I started writing. But I had decades of *implicit* understanding of scales, modes and chords so I could wing it until I got the book learning.

As far as the arts go, I believe the implicit understanding you get from *making* music is vastly more important than the explicit understanding you get from *explaining* music. In the sciences both are equally important. But the written rules of music are not proscriptive as in the sciences; the written rulse of music are descriptive. In other words, the laws of science can tell you what *will* happen whereas the laws of music and other arts tell you what *did* happen.

You can throw a ball to a dog and he'll catch it. Not because he understands classical physics and can explain F=ma but because he has an implicit understanding of the effects and manifestations of F=ma. Likewise with music: you don't have to be able to write down the rules to work with them on an intuitive level. Being able to do so can help but is not necessary.

rgames


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## JohnG (Aug 24, 2021)

Markrs said:


> an education in general functional harmony would still be important to get a decent understanding of what is in the score.


Well -- I don't think so. At least not if you call it "an education," unless by that you include playing guitar / piano / whatever using a grubby piece of paper with chord symbols on it that the lead singer copied down for the band.

I agree with @rgames here that performing with some seriousness or at least some consistency puts the music in your ears in a way that studying Piston or Adler or even Korsakoff doesn't.

I think people exaggerate the amount of formal training _necessary_ to understand what's going on. Sure, if you have that (I have some) it speeds score analysis and maybe you notice more. 

But I just don't think that talking about music or taking classes is as fast a way to glean _usable_ information as picking a few spots in a score you like and digging into them.

I know you don't really disagree @Markrs but I keep seeing expressions like "an education" and it smacks of formality and classrooms. I found that a useful but excruciatingly slow way to learn.


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## Markrs (Aug 24, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Well -- I don't think so. At least not if you call it "an education," unless by that you include playing guitar / piano / whatever using a grubby piece of paper with chord symbols on it that the lead singer copied down for the band.
> 
> I agree with @rgames here that performing with some seriousness or at least some consistency puts the music in your ears in a way that studying Piston or Adler or even Korsakoff doesn't.
> 
> ...


I don’t disagree at all as I have no formal education, though for whatever reason I have gone down a more formal study route. I recently went though a long course (80+ hours on Udemy) in music theory which is I don’t think was worth it. Most of it was highly academic and never referred to what the intent was if the composer or what they wanted the listener to feel.

I have just finished the Art of Composing course which is also very traditional mainly referencing Mozart and Beethoven. It has been better than the Udemy course though.

I wouldn’t recommend going in the direction I have done as it is dry, academic and never talks about emotion only rules to follow. One of the most difficult things coming into Orchestral or film music, is what to study. Most of the courses tend to be traditional as that is probably how most potential teachers were taught and how they teach in schools.

I also have lots of theory books, I have Adler Orchestration 4th edition which feels like it would take a life time to learn as it is a proper tomb.

I might pick up the Iron Giant to study. I have Scoring the Screen by Andy Hill, which looks good but I am yet to get going with it.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 24, 2021)

If you want to be a composer, the thing that helps most is to compose. Write as frequently as you can, everyday ideally. And write without worrying if it is good or not. Just write. Try different things. Explore new ideas. Some days you’ll have the muse and other days it’ll be a chore, but push through because each minute spent actually composing makes you a better composer. Same goes for many creative disciplines (painter, author, etc).

The area where study has helped me is we all tend to get stuck in a comfortable box. The same types of melodies, harmonies, orchestration choices. We gravitate towards the comfortable or what our inner ear knows best. Studying has opened my mind up to new possibilities and directions - in a way just listening to music (or even playing it if you can do that) doesn’t quite provide in the same detail. For example, I could play / listen to a piece that was in Lydian or used chromatic harmony, but when it came for me to write, it’s hard to translate that into your own writing if you don’t know what’s happening. Sure, like a thousand monkeys on typewriters, you could fumble your way to discovering it on your own perhaps, but knowing something about the large amount of colors available to you makes the exploration process - and reuse in your own work - easier IMO.


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## mscp (Aug 24, 2021)

JohnG said:


> But I just don't think that talking about music or taking classes is as fast a way to glean _usable_ information as picking a few spots in a score you like and digging into them.


Music is a language. You can take shortcuts to get to what you need specifically, but I would certainly not recommend taking shortcuts if someone is in for the long run.



Markrs said:


> I don’t disagree at all as I have no formal education, though for whatever reason I have gone down a more formal study route. I recently went though a long course (80+ hours on Udemy) in music theory which is I don’t think was worth it. Most of it was highly academic and never referred to what the intent was if the composer or what they wanted the listener to feel.


The reason why you went the formal route is because you feel there's a lack of something, I'm sure. Education is a slow process, but very rewarding in the long run (if done seriously).

It's one of those conversations that would require hours upon hours of digest.


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## Markrs (Aug 24, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> The reason why you went the formal route is because you feel there's a lack of something, I'm sure. Education is a slow process, but very rewarding in the long run (if done seriously).
> 
> It's one of those conversations that would require hours upon hours of digest.


You are right but I feel I have come out the other side knowing more about how Bach, Beethoven and Mozart composed but not how to compose. I feel no more confident than I did before.

I know the knowledge will be useful, it is just that I have plenty of courses and books and it is time that feels precious. I do wonder if it would have been better spent trying a different approach.


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## mscp (Aug 24, 2021)

Markrs said:


> You are right but I feel I have come out the other side knowing more about how Bach, Beethoven and Mozart composed but not how to compose. I feel no more confident than I did before.
> 
> I know the knowledge will be useful, it is just that I have plenty of courses and books and it is time that feels precious. I do wonder if it would have been better spent trying a different approach.


Wait....in Music Theory? Which course did you take? Strange.


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## Markrs (Aug 24, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Wait....in Music Theory? Which course did you take? Strange.


I took the Jason Allen 21 part Music Theory course which covers 4 semesters of music theory (about 80+ hours) then I took Art of Composing which is well taught but very traditional. 

I should say that I do now understand period and sentence form better as well as basic pivot chord modulation, but still felt quite limited. I feel I could compose a short few bar piece using this knowledge. Of course you could argue my expectations were too high.


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## mscp (Aug 24, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I took the Jason Allen 21 part Music Theory course which covers 4 semesters of music theory (about 80+ hours) then I took Art of Composing which is well taught but very traditional.
> 
> I should say that I do now understand period and sentence form better as well as basic pivot chord modulation, but still felt quite limited. I feel I could compose a short few bar piece using this knowledge. Of course you could argue my expectations were too high.


Oh ok. 

I've never taken classes after graduating from school. I did further my education by buying academic books on subjects that extended my current knowledge at the time after I received my bachelours though. I also hired mentors to constantly check my work too. 

Nowadays I just study on my own, but I'm very much appreciated by all the efforts placed on me back when I was at school.


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## rgames (Aug 24, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I do wonder if it would have been better spent trying a different approach.


Are you proficient on an instrument? If not, that’s a good place to start. If so you probably just need to trust your instincts more.

Composing is like playing an instrument in the sense that study isn’t the best way to get better. Who is the better violinist: the one who spent 10 years reading about violins or the one who spent a few years playing them?

As said above, the best way to learn composition is to compose. Learning how the product works by mastering an instrument is about as good.


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## JohnG (Aug 24, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Music is a language. You can take shortcuts to get to what you need specifically, but I would certainly not recommend taking shortcuts if someone is in for the long run.


Sorry Phil but we seem to disagree on almost everything here!

Music is not a language. It's music, an entirely separate thing.

*"Shortcuts"*

You have to take shortcuts, not only in music, but in life. There is no way to learn "all about" music because there's just too much to know. I sing in a choir and we perform music from the past 700 or 800 years. Can you imagine really knowing all those styles and approaches? you'd be dead before you finished and -- whoops -- no time to compose then!

I think it's better to honour the impulse to want to create some music and take whatever shortcuts
you personally need to do in order to write what you like. I like the orchestra, so I dart straight to the passages I find exciting or interesting, and I don't try to boil the ocean.

*Don't Give Up*

For sure, if you stop composing, you won't compose anything. If an instructor says "you have to learn [this hard boring thing you're not interested in] before you can compose" -- then find another instructor. Learn what you want, then learn more of that, and write.

Don't let someone tell you you can't write unless you learn Adler or 2 part inventions. That is nonsense. (Of course, those things help...)

Also, as Richard has said, play your instrument often. It helps.


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## jononotbono (Aug 24, 2021)

Thanks John. I would love to get better at writing for orchestra so I'll check this out at some point!


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## mscp (Aug 24, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Sorry Phil but we seem to disagree on almost everything here!
> 
> Music is not a language. It's music, an entirely separate thing.


The issue is that it's not really an opinion. Music IS a language. I wish it was my opinion. lol.

Music has a very defined written language. You can communicate through it. (etc.) = Language.

If someone can't communicate through music, then we can't call it music, but rather...just sound.

Reading music is the same as reading English. Most people can speak from the age of 1-ish, but to read, one has to go through formal education. If you can't read, or don't formally study the rules to particular scales, harmonic values, counterpoint, etc...you will NOT understand scores at all. You can try...but you won't get anywhere depending on knowledge.



JohnG said:


> *"Shortcuts"*
> 
> You have to take shortcuts, not only in music, but in life. There is no way to learn "all about" music because there's just too much to know. I sing in a choir and we perform music from the past 700 or 800 years. Can you imagine really knowing all those styles and approaches? you'd be dead before you finished and -- whoops -- no time to compose then!


I was referring to music education.

I believe you're mixing things up. Music appreciation is what you've been writing about, not music education. They are two distinct classes in an academic environment.


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## Fidelity (Aug 24, 2021)

I can't agree with you, Phil. I can say with some certainty that all the theory and rigor in exercises and practice drummed much of the creativity right out of me. As a hobbyist, the skills I've acquired through education have been just about as useful towards composition as multivariable calculus is in my daily life (though theory and practice help with the performance side of things).

Sure, there are things you miss if you don't study theory. You won't understand how to communicate the technical aspects of a score in English and will likely commit a number of faux-pas (many of which you see employed by people trained in theory anyways; "rules are meant to be broken" as they say), but the internal understanding that one needs to compose coherent music isn't the same as an external understanding that allows one to discuss things.

If your boundaries are as weak as mine and it's either or (e.g. where education impacts your creativity), it comes down to what you want to be: a creative who writes music or a performer/educator/mathematician who solves music problems.


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## JohnG (Aug 24, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> The issue is that it's not really an opinion. Music IS a language.


Not by any normal definition of the word "language," Phil. You can't write sentences in it.

This is dopey and I don't want to argue with a pedant. 

Write some music.


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## mscp (Aug 24, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Not by any normal definition of the word "language," Phil. You can't write sentences in it.


Not to sound rude or anything, but check the dictionary. Alternatively, many academic music history/theory books will tell you the same thing.



JohnG said:


> This is dopey and I don't want to argue with a pedant.


Whoa. Not dopey. Just providing and challenging invalid information. Condescending others to a degree won't change any. If you can't be 'arsed' to converse after presenting mild misinformation, then I don't know what to tell you.



JohnG said:


> Write some music.


I live off it.

As made clear by you, I'll no longer write about this matter anymore and will 'unwatch' this thread.


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## Gene Pool (Aug 24, 2021)

I and the gentle fellow who mows my yard have developed a new system of composing that we will offer to the music-composing public as soon as our KickStarter fund reaches $20, if not more.

Its salient + main and important features will include the following information:

–This isn't your daddy's harmony; this harmony takes place in the 21st Century, and you can do Film Movie Scoring with it. And not just any Film Movie Scoring, but the Hollywood-Pro-Advanced™ kind, otherwise known as "The Industry," and we will tell you many insider tales and trade talk, such as "Cue Sheet," and about that time we saw Renny Harlin at The Beverly Center, which is almost in Hollywood.

–Don't be stifled by the harmony of 500 years ago. That's all anyone teaches except for us. There have been new techniques developed by us since the Gregorian monks just stood around farting in stone-clad rooms playing "pull the finger" and other weird games N.S.F.W.

–Away with the old principles Ironclad Inviolable Rules™ that never did any good for every composer from Palestrina to Shostakvich, plus after that, and other such outmoded learning.

–No one will stand next to you and your Alesis workstation with a whip, punishing you for every time your are creative.

–No rulz, cuz I heard that in a TED Talk plus an online "Master Class" that I paid good money for and no creative geniuses ever said "NO RULZ" B4 now.

–You're missing stuff if you don't learn our system. Don't be left behind the competition.

–We will teach you some creativity.

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## Geoff Grace (Aug 24, 2021)

I'd like to offer a middle ground, if I may, on the notion of music as a language.

Certainly, unlike language, it would be tough to use music to communicate ideas. However, music can be readily used to communicate emotion. In fact, it's arguably a better tool to do so than words.

For example, you could take away the lyrics and this song would still communicate sadness:




And just as language is made up of words and sentences as building blocks, music is made up of building blocks like chords, melody, and rhythm. They're not exactly the same, but they're somewhat analogous.

Best,

Geoff


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## dcoscina (Aug 24, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> I and the gentle fellow who mows my yard have developed a new system of composing that we will offer to the music-composing public as soon as our KickStarter fund reaches $20, if not more.
> 
> Its salient + main and important features will include the following information:
> 
> ...


Best..post... ever...


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## dcoscina (Aug 24, 2021)

In all seriousness, it is difficult if not impossible to know whether the foundation of information acquired in university help carry through ideas or techniques that are still used today. I languished through 2nd year Harmony and Counterpoint, but did it help to inform how I write lines to this day? I don't know. Consciously I would say no but there is a certain degree of muscle memory that plays a factor. 

It's like learning martial arts for decades... then stopping. Sure, your conditioning might not be up to the task of executing some of the waza years later if you needed to, but I would guess the memory is still encoded in the brain and nervous system nonetheless. 

Like many forums, things can tend to get a touch divisive and polarized on topics like this. I think those who did study do benefit from their training in some way- but it doesn't negate or invalidate others who learned practically or outside academia.

And to get back to my martial arts analogy, some people are just born really good fighters, no matter their training.. others, not so much.


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## davidnaroth (Aug 24, 2021)

I'm a believer that you dont have to go to music school and get a degree. Although it definitely takes a lot focus, a lot of determination, and self motivation to figure out what you dont know and what you should know. 
I never went and somehow was fortunate enough to work on some pretty cool projects and score some pretty neat stuff. I've definitely felt overwhelmed here and there, but I saw what I needed to get better at or understand, and ordered some books, came on here, or did a deep dive on the web to learn it.


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## BlackDorito (Aug 24, 2021)

Whether music is a language is an interesting topic for a more theoretical thread .. but is perhaps a diversion for this thread. Leonard Bernstein addressed the idea in _The Unanswered Question_. There are obvious similarities .. and differences. You can't just pick up your electric guitar and rattle off a Jimmy Page solo in order to ask someone to pick up milk and eggs at the grocery.

On the subject of scores, for those who live near a university town, you can often go to the music library and study or copy scores you could not otherwise find. But watch out, you might become "score dependent" as I am and unable to function with Track View.


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## rgames (Aug 24, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> The issue is that it's not really an opinion. Music IS a language. I wish it was my opinion. lol.
> 
> Music has a very defined written language. You can communicate through it. (etc.) = Language.
> 
> If someone can't communicate through music, then we can't call it music, but rather...just sound.


Kind of yes but kind of no. If music is a langauage then show me an instrumental score that communicates "I want a hamburger." You can't really express that idea, on its own, in purely musical form. So, arguably, music is not a language.

However, there is something universal that music conveys - it's almost more fundamental than language. I can't really describe what that is - it is akin to language but not quite the same. Mozart's Symphony #40 doesn't have a translation but it does communicate something. So in that sense it's a type of communication but I don't think it's really a language.

Music is like math: it can be a language in some situations but, more generally, it's a means of communicating at a level deeper than language. Mathematics is the language of physics, in a sense, but there's a lot of mathematics that doesn't have any application in physics but still manages to communicate something.

rgames


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## Geoff Grace (Aug 24, 2021)

davidnaroth said:


> I'm a believer that you dont have to go to music school and get a degree.


This is certainly the case. I got my degree in music composition; but the most famous recording artist I worked for had little formal education of any kind. He became a star in the middle of his childhood, and his success and fame continued to grow throughout his adult life.

My education was helpful in many ways, but it didn't help me advance nearly as far in the music business as he did.

Best,

Geoff


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## dcoscina (Aug 27, 2021)

Went over Total Recall from Omni again last night. Pure Gold(smith). Amazing score


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## SupremeFist (Aug 27, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> I and the gentle fellow who mows my yard have developed a new system of composing that we will offer to the music-composing public as soon as our KickStarter fund reaches $20, if not more.
> 
> Its salient + main and important features will include the following information:
> 
> ...


This amazing post made me laugh out loud, slap my head, and pour a beer. Job done, Mr. Pool.


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## robh (Sep 7, 2021)

rgames said:


> If music is a langauage then show me an instrumental score that communicates "I want a hamburger."
> 
> rgames









Rob


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## el-bo (Sep 7, 2021)

rgames said:


> If music is a langauage...


Music isn't language. Music is the conversation.


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## Ivan M. (Sep 7, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> I could look at a genius architectural plan and miss most, if not all, of what makes it brilliant.


Indeed, you could look at the score and just not see everything in it. That's why, to avoid reinventing the wheel, you need someone (a teacher) give you that "Aha!" moment. To show you a pattern you just didn't see.



rgames said:


> As far as the arts go, I believe the implicit understanding you get from *making* music is vastly more important than the explicit understanding you get from *explaining* music.


However, you might encounter new knowledge you didn't come up with yourself, and expand your knowledge beyond inherent capabilities / musical intelligence. Why didn't Mozzart, being such a genius, discover jazz? It just didn't occur to him to think like that. He built him self on top of knowledge that came previously. Again, avoiding reinventing the wheel.



rgames said:


> Are you proficient on an instrument? If not, that’s a good place to start. If so you probably just need to trust your instincts more.


To start, yes, but an instrument can make your fingers compose, rather than your head.


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## mscp (Sep 7, 2021)

Geoff Grace said:


> This is certainly the case. I got my degree in music composition; but the most famous recording artist I worked for had little formal education of any kind. He became a star in the middle of his childhood, and his success and fame continued to grow throughout his adult life.
> 
> My education was helpful in many ways, but it didn't help me advance nearly as far in the music business as he did.
> 
> ...


I thought I have unwatched this thread. ha.

Being famous has to do with trends (sometimes luck) rather than deep knowledge. Anyone can be shallow and still do well in any field. But, I bet that if someone gave you a *very specific* job to do, you'd be able to perform much better than him.

The business side is also part of the education a lot of people seem to oversee.


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## rgames (Sep 7, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> However, you might encounter new knowledge you didn't come up with yourself, and expand your knowledge beyond inherent capabilities / musical intelligence. Why didn't Mozzart, being such a genius, discover jazz? It just didn't occur to him to think like that. He built him self on top of knowledge that came previously. Again, avoiding reinventing the wheel.


It seems you're implying that you can't encounter new ideas through performance. I don't agree on that point. Your example of jazz is a good one - I think that is a tradition/style born (mostly) of discovery during performance. I don't think anyone sat down with paper and pencil and said "Hmmm... let's try this."

And the reason Mozart didn't come up with jazz is because no single person comes up with a new style of music. New styles emerge through the efforts of dozens or hundreds of musicians. Then a select group of adherents refines it to some sort of finished product. That's what Mozart did: he didn't create the classical style, he brought it to its logical conclusion.

And based on the historical record he was an accomplished performer 

rgames


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## Ivan M. (Sep 7, 2021)

rgames said:


> It seems you're implying that you can't encounter new ideas through performance. I don't agree on that point. Your example of jazz is a good one - I think that is a tradition/style born (mostly) of discovery during performance. I don't think anyone sat down with paper and pencil and said "Hmmm... let's try this."
> 
> And the reason Mozart didn't come up with jazz is because no single person comes up with a new style of music. New styles emerge through the efforts of dozens or hundreds of musicians. Then a select group of adherents refines it to some sort of finished product. That's what Mozart did: he didn't create the classical style, he brought it to its logical conclusion.
> 
> ...



Yes, but the point is not to rediscover stuff. Just by studying scores or improvising one cannot rediscover all the accumulated knowledge. Someone has to teach it. You'll learn something for sure, but having a teacher or reading books is probably the most efficient way. You don't always know what you don't know.

Mozart was taught classical style, and that's what he was good at. He couldn't see beyond its bounds. Just as you said, it's an evolutive process, one does not simply discover stuff, even a genius has to be taught.

But we're getting too abstract here. Simply put: I don't believe just reading the scores can give you the same insights as a teacher can. "Orchestration online" is a great resource, and in his analysis Thomas points out stuff I would never think of.

I completely agree with you on the intuition and performing an instrument.


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## Geoff Grace (Sep 7, 2021)

mscp said:


> I thought I have unwatched this thread. ha.
> 
> Being famous has to do with trends (sometimes luck) rather than deep knowledge. Anyone can be shallow and still do well in any field. But, I bet that if someone gave you a *very specific* job to do, you'd be able to perform much better than him.
> 
> The business side is also part of the education a lot of people seem to oversee.


I guess it would depend on the specific job. He was a master singer and dancer. I'm more of a jack-of-all-trades in the music field (although I've mastered some trades more than others).

Best,

Geoff


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## proggermusic (Sep 7, 2021)

Interesting thread. I've contemplated going back to school for more composition (PhD or DMA, I have Bachelor's and Masters in music) and I decided not to since IMSLP has every classic 19th century score I could ever want and the great orchestras of the world have those pieces recorded. I can study them visually and aurally all I want, and my background makes it so I can make sense of it.

However... for me, music school was extremely valuable. I was always a precocious, self-taught musician and composer, and I thought I was hot **** in high school. I went to a competitive program (jazz at North Texas) and that environment humbled me tremendously and forced me to REALLY understand what's necessary to work on the level I wanted to. Patience, discipline, methodology, etc. A program like that isn't for everybody, but it was perfect for me personally, and I owe much of my career to the skills I developed and to my community of peers, many of whom have gone on to be industry leaders.

Not only that, but my first two years of school in particular filled in so many gaps in my fundamentals that it set me up to be a much more effective self-teacher in the long run. Dan Haerle's theory and piano books dramatically improved my understanding of music, more than I could have thought possible!

In the end, there's no right or wrong way to do it, but for some students a college or conservatory music program can be ideal. We have many resources these days thanks to the internet, and community college music programs can be extremely good too.


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## Geoff Grace (Sep 7, 2021)

proggermusic said:


> Dan Haerle's theory and piano books dramatically improved my understanding of music, more than I could have thought possible!


Small world! Dan Haerle was one of my teachers when he was at ASU. Well done, getting into North Texas, *proggermusic*. Great jazz school.

Best,

Geoff


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## proggermusic (Sep 8, 2021)

Geoff Grace said:


> Small world! Dan Haerle was one of my teachers when he was at ASU.


No kidding! Dan is such a wonderful musician, teacher, and person. I was very lucky to have had him for his last year of teaching at North Texas before he retired, and I got to work with him a little bit after he'd retired as well. I use his books with my own college students every day.

Funny enough, North Texas is a pretty easy school to get into – a bit like Berklee in that regard – but very challenging to complete. The attrition rate for jazz majors was something like 75% when I was there. Maybe more. Some people call it Bebop boot camp...


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## TonalDynamics (Nov 11, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> I could look at a genius architectural plan and miss most, if not all, of what makes it brilliant. I love architecture, but we're not close enough friends for me to see anything deeply.
> 
> Having access to film scores is a beautiful innovation. Knowing a little about music enables anyone who is interested, even me, to have a look and learn. Michael Kamen on paper. That's really cool. Thanks for sharing the excitement about this. I'm going to have a look.


Unless you were the "Good Will Hunting" of architecture


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## mikeh-375 (Nov 11, 2021)

proggermusic said:


> ..............In the end, there's no right or wrong way to do it, but for some students a college or conservatory music program can be ideal. We have many resources these days thanks to the internet, and community college music programs can be extremely good too.


True, there is no right or wrong way to compose. Improving technical skill does have many advantages though. Not least the possibility that once acquired, a skilled composer is able to compose accurately _and/or_ liberally and also perhaps in a unique way that combines the two which is more refined.


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## KEM (Nov 11, 2021)

Even better (and cheaper) than that would be to just skip music school and watch YouTube videos!!


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## mikeh-375 (Nov 12, 2021)

^^ well remember to practise too then.....
I have major doubts as to whether YT is the sole answer though.


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## jsg (Nov 20, 2021)

I've studied with numerous wonderful teachers. I am glad I went to music school, also glad I studied privately with numerous composers and happy I went to the trouble to study classical theory, score analysis and, of course, composition. I highly recommend studying scores by composers like Mahler, Nielsen, Barber, Shostakovitch, Ravel, Bach, Stravinsky, Brahms, Mozart and many others who can help you learn how to understand music that has _skillful transitions_, _thematic and motivic development_ and other properties you won't find in film scores or film cues. But be aware that it's hardly useful to study scores _before_ you've studied harmony and counterpoint in depth because you'll just get a superficial overview of orchestration and miss the deep connection between voice-leading, harmony and timbral decisions. Better also to be able to read 4 clefs, not 3, as bassoon, trombone and cello are sometimes written in tenor clef. _There are no short-cuts_ in becoming a composer, as the OP asserts. Finally, even excellent and fair-minded teachers have their preferences as to what kind of music they believe in. The OP seems to suggest that teachers just want to ram down their student's throat their own agenda and biases. Maybe he just wasn't fortunate enough to ever have a really good teacher.


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## jsg (Nov 20, 2021)

mikeh-375 said:


> ^^ well remember to practise too then.....
> I have major doubts as to whether YT is the sole answer though.


What is YT? You Tube? Your Technology? Young Turks?


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## TonalDynamics (May 31, 2022)

Gene Pool said:


> I and the gentle fellow who mows my yard have developed a new system of composing that we will offer to the music-composing public as soon as our KickStarter fund reaches $20, if not more.
> 
> Its salient + main and important features will include the following information:
> 
> ...


Screenplay WHEN?!

One of the greatest posts ever written, anywhere. 
Easily in the top ten.


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