# Oh to own a Briscati..... (CSR vs. Lexicon)



## Stephen Baysted (Feb 7, 2010)

Paul you could buy TC electronics hardware reverb; they're doing some great deals on them atm and they sound superb andn integrate it via ADAT or SPdif. Or conversely, you could get a Powercore and load it up with some reverb goodness.


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## re-peat (Feb 7, 2010)

It doesn’t really matter, I believe. Much less so anyway then some people would like you to believe. Just go with the one you feel most comfortable with and concentrate on more important issues (of which there are many). It’s not as if the success of a sample-based production is primarily dependent on the choice of reverb, is it? Solid writing, musical programming, expressive sounds and an ear for texture and balance are all FAR more important than the choice of reverb, in my opinion.

Most reverb-software that’s currently available is more than up to the job of creating some illusion of space around your samples and that’s the most you can expect from reverb in these circumstances anyway. Reverb won’t turn your dead samples into living sounds, nor is it able to disguise the thousands of (sonic) imperfections that are inevitable when mocking up an orchestra. Mock-ups are, by definition, sonically crippled from the outset anyway and there’s no processor than can do much about that, certainly not reverb, no matter how lush-sounding and sophisticated it may be said to be.

Before a sample-based production fails to convince because of the reverb — and that only happens if you really do not know what you’re supposed to be doing with reverb — there’s hundreds of other things which grab the ear’s attention much more eagerly: the writing, the choice of sounds, the quality of the samples, the dynamics, the programming, etc. ... 

Sample-based music that doesn’t convince, won’t sound any more convincing by going through, say, a Lexicon or Bricasti unit. And sample-based music that _does_ convince, always does so for _other_ reasons than the choice of reverb.

_


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## chimuelo (Feb 7, 2010)

Good Points from everyone.
One overlooked point though is the static nature of software reverbs.
They cannot be modulated, they have zippered and stepped artifacts.
This is not important unless you actually are involved in production, and are trying to do your own Foley work to save on costs.
I have found some DSP reverbs that sound great, and actually wrap their warmth around the source material.
So for static use hardware is just a luxury.
But when you want realistic re creation of acoustic spaces, and the ability to change parameters in realtime as the effect might be following a moving vehicle, etc.
The Model 7 is by far the best unit for such chores.
Every unit has its' strengths and character but the Bricasti is designed for realism, Lexicon os based on just a beautiful lush effect and very good ER's. etc.
But if you think all you will ever do is play with static samples, doing mock ups with software can be effective.
But once you step into a mastering frame of mind and leave the audition demo world such tools like a Bricasti are very important.


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 7, 2010)

I think Piet brings up a good point. If the elements of writing, orchestration, mockup, balance and mix were skipped or missed first, slapping a reverb on there won't help. I think its an important consideration to refrain from using many FX etc until the final mix stage - because it won't matter unless those other elements are dealt with first. Delayed gratification is a lost but vital art.

Personally I've gotten better, cleaner results just mixing and playing it without the high end reverbs, EQs etc and wait until the end at mix down before introducing those elements. That's not to say I don't absolutely love my gear but in the composing stage IMO less is more. Once everything is ready to be stemmed out, many of the mix elements are already handled which makes introducing new elements such as EQs and reverbs so much easier and the entire production more effective.


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## Revson (Feb 7, 2010)

Yes good points on the importance of other production values...but tangential to the OP query (and perhaps a wee tiny bit insulting)? He didn't add "so I can stop having to work so hard on my compositions and mixing."

Maybe start another thread: "Good reverb is overrated" or some such?

Continuing OT, it is easy to muck things up with over-colored IR's, or the chalky, ringy algorithmic plugins that have been replaced only recently with some good alternatives. I hear only a few mockups here that don't have "space" issues that distract me from the composition.

(My two cents, smilies, etc.)

Paul, As context, I have an M7 and previously spent many, many hours with a TC4000. Personally I can't get it up for CSR. I suppose it could get the job done, but nothing special in my book. The Lexicon plugin is probably a no-brainer if you have the funds. If not (or in addition to), I'd look at Fabric R on Powercore, which someone here mentioned was based on TC's VSS4 (which is the headline algorithm in TC's 4000 and 6000 and very good).


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## PaulWood (Feb 7, 2010)

Heh - I wasn't for a minute suggesting that a Briscati (or quality software reverb) would save me the hassle of having to actually work hard to make my mockups sound good 

But yes, as Revson said, they are all very useful points.

On the flip side, my question came about because whilst a good reverb cannot necessarily save a shoddy mockup, a bad reverb can ruin a good one.

I have heard both good and bad things about CSR, and generally good things about Lex hardware.

Rousseau - I really would like to keep things "in box" as far as possible. The benefit of that being I can load up as many instances of the plugin as I need, and therefore have more options when it comes to mixdown.

Unless I could get an M7 that it 

I jest...

I'll see if Lex have a demo and try it out. Powercore is something I was seriously considering for later in the year anyway, so that could be an option.

Cheers!

Paul


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## jeffc (Feb 7, 2010)

I'd have to disagree that verb isn't important. Yeah, if the writing's crap it really doesn't matter - can't polish a turd - too much, but the extra sparkle that a good verb adds is pretty dramatic. And you don't really know it until you hear a good one.

I have CSR and it's great for the price, until you put it against the Lex plug. It's like going from mono to stereo. Tails that you thought were good in the CSR sound absolutely tiny and metallic when you here the better Lex ones.

I've compared a bunch, EOS is pretty damn great for the $$, the Powercore ClassicVerb was always really good for fake algo tails, Altiverb is amazing but not as much for the long fake tails - great to put it in the space but then all orch scores have lex/bricasti/ lush fake tails added after.

Anyway, I'd try the others first because once you try the Lexicon, you'll really have to convince yourself that the other ones are close enough. Just my 2 cents....


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## chimuelo (Feb 7, 2010)

Can I get the Lincoln Memorial Obama Speech 10 second Tail IR from the new Lexicon plug..?
If so I will buy that as I am so tired of my hardware reverbs loosing their tail after 5 or 6 seconds. The infinite RT on my Lexicon just isn't cutting it anymore.


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## re-peat (Feb 7, 2010)

I nowhere said that good reverb isn’t important or overrated. I said — or, at least, implied — that the difference between a decent reverb and a high-end luxury one is negligible in the context of what is — in essence and by its very nature — an inferior sonic environment that is ‘a mock-up’.

I have NEVER heard a mock-up where the reverb, all by itself, turns an average sonic experience into an outstanding one. Doesn’t exist. And I have never heard a mock-up where the reverb, on its own, is capable of dragging the sound from flat, synthetic-sounding muck into the realm of ‘organic believability’. Again: completely impossible.
And finally, I have never heard a mock-up that made me wish the composer/producer had used a better reverb. Before I ever might start to entertain the notion of perhaps contemplating the possibility of such a thought maybe being sensible enough to enter my discriminating brain, I’m invariably much more drawn to/pleasantly surprised/disappointed/put off by all the other elements of the production: orchestration, writing, sound, choice of samples, dynamics, balance, tone, timbre, expression, colour, ... Reverb wouldn’t still feature in that list, even if I made it twice as long.

If you choose to do mock-ups, you have to accept the simple fact that the result of all your hard work will be sonically mediocre at best. (Compared to truly state-of-the-art recording, that is.) And in that all too familiar territory of lifeless, cardboard make-believe where most of us dwell, it doesn’t matter whether you use a Lexicon, a Bricasti, CSR, the TC’s reverbs or the Sonnox Reverb or whatever. It just doesn’t matter. No matter how much you would like that it does and no matter how much people tell you that will, it just doesn’t.
If you do mock-ups you have — production-wise — MUCH bigger and potentially destructive fish to fry than the relatively inconsequential worry about the quality of your reverb algorithms. The simple fact that samples are samples and therefore the worst possible material to make truly living, organic sound with, has such a profound bearing on any sample-based production that no reverb — or any other processing for that matter — is powerful, clever, intelligent or capable enough to counter or disguise, let alone solve, that fundamental problem.

Which is why I say: any decent reverb will suffice.

High-end reverbs, like the Lexicons and the Bricastis, need far, far, far better audio tracks to fully come into their own than those we fabricate so clumsily — with our barely adequate software, samples and plugins — to assemble our mock-ups with.

In all seriousness: you honestly don’t think that a sample library — be it GPO, Sonivox, HS, LASS, Vienna or whatever — will, all of a sudden, sound fundamentally better or ‘more real’ (even more absurd) when it’s sent through the Lexicon instead of Aether, the CSR or the Redline Reverb, do you?

_


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## SvK (Feb 7, 2010)

what Re-Peat said.

SvK


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## Hannes_F (Feb 7, 2010)

Gear lust - AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!! :D


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## Revson (Feb 7, 2010)

re-peat @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> I nowhere said that good reverb isn’t important or overrated. I said — or, at least, implied — that the difference between a decent reverb and a high-end luxury one is negligible in the context of what is — in essence and by its very nature — an inferior sonic environment that is ‘a mock-up’.
> 
> I have NEVER heard a mock-up where the reverb, all by itself, turns an average sonic experience into an outstanding one. Doesn’t exist. And I have never heard a mock-up where the reverb, on its own, is capable of dragging the sound from flat, synthetic-sounding muck into the realm of ‘organic believability’. Again: completely impossible.
> And finally, I have never heard a mock-up that made me wish the composer/producer had used a better reverb. Before I ever might start to entertain the notion of perhaps contemplating the possibility of such a thought maybe being sensible enough to enter my discriminating brain, I’m invariably much more drawn to/pleasantly surprised/disappointed/put off by all the other elements of the production: orchestration, writing, sound, choice of samples, dynamics, balance, tone, timbre, expression, colour, ... Reverb wouldn’t still feature in that list, even if I made it twice as long.
> ...



Kinda feel you're making up both sides of an argument here Piet...

But here's an irony: the (posh, super-luxury, ostentatious and decadent) M7 marries the source so well, you really can just punch something up and go back to other things.

You know, things differ in importance to people when they listen. Me, I hate a shite soundstage and it puts me off. It's a part of the craft, and I care about it. And yes, the tools can make a HUGE difference. I'd rather shoot myself then use, say, some of those old stock reverbs in Logic. You can't get there from here.

SvK: +1?? Geez, if there's anyone I'd bet dollars-to-donuts has spent hours experimenting and tweaking with this stuff - it'd be you. Give me a break - if Todd AO were a girl you'd marry her!


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## PaulWood (Feb 8, 2010)

Revson @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> SvK: +1?? Geez, if there's anyone I'd bet dollars-to-donuts has spent hours experimenting and tweaking with this stuff - it'd be you. Give me a break - if Todd AO were a girl you'd marry her!



:lol: 

Wow! I had no intention to start a firestorm over this!

re-peat - I absolutely do agree with you o-[][]-o , but if anywhere is a place to have a discussion about the pros and cons of certain reverb units/plugins, then surely a post-pro and mixing forum is it?

My original subject line was partly in jest (and yes it's purely gear lust! :wink: ), and you're right, the choice of reverb does not make a track. As I said though, I believe it can break it...

P


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## zareone (Feb 8, 2010)

You could give try AudioDamage EOS and D16 Toraverb. Don't be fooled by their low price, they both sound really good to my ears. They have a really different character, so more colors for your sonic palette. 

EOS can make lush long reverbs


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## hv (Feb 8, 2010)

Hopefully mock-up eventually gets you to a finished production. Been working my way through the TC line for several years. Their M3000 has some pretty musical VSS3 sounds and a boat load of spaces very useful for video dialog and stuff. And not that expensive. The TC Rev4000 is a step up with VSS4 which I really like allot. I moved up to a Bricasti only because I do allot of 88.2k audio recording which the Rev4000 could only handle one channel at a time and I couldn't come near springing for TC6000. At 1/3 the price, the M7 was almost a bargain. 

I don't have the M7's v2 firmware yet. It's supposed to add more Lexicon-like sounds. But if that's what you're after, native pcm plugin might be a better choice. And less $$$. And vst plugin easier to daw. Little expensive for a plugin, though.

Another possibility is a convolution-based software reverb. Something like Alteverb. I use Pristine Spaces on occasion and its really very good. And you can download Bricasti impulse responses for free from here: http://www.acousticas.net/World/IRs/AcousticasM7.zip 

Howard


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## dylandog (Feb 8, 2010)

Try the Lexicon PCM Native Demo here...
http://lexiconpro.com/static.php?id=55
14 day demo..that tends to go by too fast
enjoy o/~


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## Camus (Feb 9, 2010)

........ finally back to bricasti. It is wonderful for spaces. 
There is an IR Set for free made by acousticas (don´t know the site - but you can find a thread sw here) It is programmed for logic´s space designer and has the wav - Files. 
So you can use it directly in Kontakt - convolution. 
If you have LASS. The IRs that Thonnex supplied with LASS are very superb!

best Camus


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## hv (Feb 9, 2010)

The Acousticas IR's are linked in my earlier message. These are stereo IR's based on a mono, dead-centered source, btw. I suppose you could use them with mono samples, panning both the source and reverb in tandem for panned instruments. But the imaging would be sub-optimal in my opinion for anything but a dead-centered instrument or vocal.

Here's another free Bricasti IR set: 

http://www.rhythminmind.net/presetblog/2009/06/667/

These are what they call True Stereo. Meaning they swept each channel separately to it's own stereo IR which you're supposed to treat as dual sources in your convolution processor. Presumably over the entire mix. This would seem to me to be functionally identical to dual sources panned hard right and left. I used to use my TC Rev4000 exactly like that because it could only do one channel at a time at High Res. But it was meant to be used that way and wired a setting for the source position into the VSS4 presets. And yielded a rich and detailed effect when you mix the 2 stereo reverb outputs. I went for the Bricasti because it accomplishes the same thing in a single pass. The Bricasti however does not have a source position setting in its presets and I think dual-passing the channels separately might yield sub-optimal imaging for any source that's not really 100% left or right.

I suppose you could get better results using the 2 True Stereo IR's together with the mono-sourced Acoustica IR in L-C-R fashion. Certainly a richer effect.

I think a sharper imaging approach would be a Bricasti IR-set with a different stereo IR for various source positions across the stage. With perhaps 3 different pre-delay settings to simulate different sound-stage depth positions. I always thought that's the way IRs are supposed to be done. We could call it Real Stereo.

Howard


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## PaulWood (Feb 10, 2010)

Thanks very much folks! I'll look into those plugins mentioned (as well as the IR sets).

Up to now I've generally used IRs for spatial positioning (ERs) and an algorithmic tail. I'll do some tests, leave the computer for a few hours and then do a "blind listening"!

I'll also grab the Lexicon demo - although based on what's been said I've a feeling once I listen to it, I'll want it!

P


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## PaulWood (Feb 10, 2010)

(OT - has V2 been released for the M7 now? I know there were some delays with it)


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## hv (Feb 10, 2010)

Not yet. The developer seemed to say there would be more definite news in about 2 weeks:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end ... ost5083858

Howard


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