# VI Control Professionals in Film Scoring, Is abusive behavior really an industry standard?



## construer (Jun 29, 2020)

Short background:

I started an intense development of my music skills back in 1996. I was living, eating, dreaming music. Around 10 years later I got my first TV composing jobs (for short forms, like weather and horoscope shows, ads...). That led to a bigger gig for the top organization in my country, for which media production company I worked for got reward. That led to another gig for which I got the greatest compliment in my life by industry professional (not in person though): that my music is like Jean Michel Jarre's, only better.

Working with the TV producer I was working for was a blessing. I insisted on the long briefs and getting every creative information I could get. A demand he patiently met. Because of that, I have never had to recompose anything and producer was always baffled how can I integrate every single idea into a great music (his words, not mine).

However, my experience was an exception. Other artists (directors, actors, composers...) weren't that lucky. And a lot of jerky behaviors happened. As you can imagine.

Since I live in a developing country, I attributed that kind of behavior to a lack of money: when cake is small, everyone fights for crumbs.

But then an international high profile event happened for which a lot of us got very thrilled. At the end of that event shit hit the fan and a big abusive behavior from high profile industry professionals took place.


Alongside my composing skills development, another passion was growing. Psychotherapy.

Psychotherapy was my interest, hobby, good read... until I discovered constructivism. Blown away by structural thinking about human psyche I started my training in psychotherapy. That left me less time for music, but led to a practical work with people.

One type of abusive behavior that cause mental disturbance in people is double-binding or mixed messages. Imagine conversation like this:

A: Listen what I'm telling you: give me a glass of water.
B: Here is your water.
A: Why did you give me a water?!?!?!?
B: You asked for it.
A: You should've bring me a juice!!!
B: But you asked for a water.
A: Why did you listen to me?

At a smaller scale, this just pisses of people. At the largest scale this kind of behavior can cause severe damage. In between it causes anxiety.

This kind of behavior is what thousands of people got at the end of that high profile event I've mentioned earlier. People got pissed off. Felt disrespected. Raised their voices.

But then, different voices started to kick in, voices from professionals, voices like: all those snowflakes; you need to develop a thick skin; just move on; all those who complain will never get to work in the industry... Even THE Biggest Fish in the industry defended abusive behavior and abuser.

In psychology this is called internalized aggression(/aggressor) or internalized abuse(r). And is THE signal that person lives in a highly toxic environment and should be displaced if possible.

I always thought that if money and creative opportunities are no longer an issue, if artistic survival is secured, that humane treatment of another human being is unblocked and raised to a higher level.

Is top level film scoring industry really this toxic environment?


Alongside private psychotherapy practice, I work as a music teacher in a public music high school. I teach media composition. And I thought that media material that this big event provided was a godsend for motivating students, for providing them a feeling of a high profile project.

In the introductory classes I like giving insight into a cultural context in which composing happens. And I thought that when artistic survival is secured, composer's stress is about making the best creative decision and meeting a deadline.

I thought that mutual respect is a must.

Was it just my delusion? 

If acceptance of abusive behavior is not economy related, then there is some other deeper issue in film scoring industry, an issue unknown to me.

Issue that screams: RUN!!!!


----------



## Morning Coffee (Jun 30, 2020)

The behaviour you are describing 'could' be some form of narcissistic or personality disorder or just highly stressful situations affecting people. The technique you described sounds like 'gaslighting' to me, where it is used to make you feel crazy or worthless or something to that degree.


----------



## Beluga (Jun 30, 2020)

I was offered a high-end teaching job in multi-media, almost that is, it didn't happen in the end. And I was kind of relieved because it felt like leading the young and hopefuls into a war zone or a minefield, that I'm not sure how to navigate myself.

I must be the worst self-promoter ever but I somehow got by over the years and it astounds me the first one that I did. I have seen so much abusive behavior that when I tell this someone who is not in this business they widen their eyes and their jaws drop. They are in utter disbelief.

So, YES, it is standard, unfortunately. But I do feel it's gotten worse in the last 5-10 years. A lot worse. Nowadays it's just like, I pick you up and use you and then throw you to the trash at the slightest inconvenience. And this at all levels from the indy producers to the high-end ones. Maybe it's this day of the Internet when all is just a click away and rather than working with someone it's quicker to throw him/her away and get a new toy. The lack of respect is just unbelievable. And it's expected that you go with it. Even worse when established professionals preach how that's how the world goes and so on. Suck it up, be a pro. To some extent, OK, but abuse is still abuse.

I can't go into the details about the abuse (as you didn't) for obvious reasons but as I always say, somehow composers are also responsible for this because there is an utter lack of self-respect within our ranks. Respect yourself, respect your talent, your muse, your inspiration, your hard work. And if you don't no one else will.

Of course, there are exceptions and I have also worked with wonderful people over the years and this is just the most wonderful thing in the world.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 30, 2020)

No.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jun 30, 2020)

Beluga said:


> I was offered a high-end teaching job in multi-media, almost that is, it didn't happen in the end. And I was kind of relieved because it felt like leading the young and hopefuls into a war zone or a minefield, that I'm not sure how to navigate myself.
> 
> I must be the worst self-promoter ever but I somehow got by over the years and it astounds me the first one that I did. I have seen so much abusive behavior that when I tell this someone who is not in this business they widen their eyes and their jaws drop. They are in utter disbelief.
> 
> ...


I think the main problem with composers is they don’t know how much to charge because there is no union protecting composers the way there is for orchestrators, copyists, musicians, directors, actors, producers, writers, recordings, gaffers, and crew. Plus, if a composer does not have a good agent or manager, and most don’t, then it is very hard to negotiate for yourself. I have found that other composers do not want to share how much they charge so no one knows if they are asking for enough money when the community is so silent about fees.


----------



## Daryl (Jun 30, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I think the main problem with composers is they don’t know how much to charge because there is no union protecting composers the way there is for orchestrators, copyists, musicians, directors, actors, producers, writers, recordings, gaffers, and crew.


I think it's more a case of there is always someone else who will do it cheaper, or for nothing.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jun 30, 2020)

Daryl said:


> I think it's more a case of there is always someone else who will do it cheaper, or for nothing.


If there was a union for composers then most film and tv jobs would have to pay at the minimum rates for composers based on the type of project. This would prevent a lot of undercutting.


----------



## Daryl (Jun 30, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> If there was a union for composers then most film and tv jobs would have to pay at the minimum rates for composers based on the type of project. This would prevent a lot of undercutting.


Only if the composers being hired had to be union members.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jun 30, 2020)

Daryl said:


> Only if the composers being hired had to be union members.


The idea is that all the major studios only are allowed to work with unions so anything produced by the majors would be union jobs. Independent films don’t pay well anyway. But let’s realize that there is no union protecting composers. PROs like BMI and ASCAP protect songwriters but no one protects film and tv composers.


----------



## JoelS (Jun 30, 2020)

construer said:


> One type of abusive behavior that cause mental disturbance in people is double-binding or mixed messages. Imagine conversation like this:


...followed by "Every conversation I have ever had with a client or A&R rep or music supervisor, ever"

So, maybe not all have been that bad, but a whole lot of them are. It often comes down to people being unable to communicate their needs or ideas, or the language of communication having multiple possible valid interpretations.

This happens _all the time_.

I have clients to whom various instruments are 'that high sound I don't like' or 'can you remove that violin,' when it's an oboe. They pay money that still works as a financial tool, so I deal with interpreting their requests.

I have clients who want a very specific thing, then that thing they thought they wanted which was quite specific and detailed and took a lot of effort to achieve does not sit well in the context they are using it, and they completely change their mind on what they wanted.

Music is a messy subject that means different things to different people and can be discussed in ways that are simple or sophisticated, but are rarely precise and never objective.

Those sorts of conversations are very common, at all levels of the music industry! If people who entered The Contest have not otherwise participated in the 'make music for money' industry, maybe they are imagining a very tidy and efficient career full of extremely thoughtful and well-reasoned encounters with their clients/bosses. From my several decades of experience, that is very much wishful thinking and nowhere near being reality.

I'll also add that in some sectors of the industry, the conversation the OP posited ends in the middle when you hand them their water, and they say 'thanks, but this isn't what we're looking for, try again next time we ask for a water!' and that's it. You don't get an explanation of why your water was wrong, or whether they thought you would hand them a glass of milk when they asked for water, or anything. Just a note saying what they received did not meet expectations, and a 'better luck next time.'

That's how the industry works, very very often.


----------



## Daryl (Jun 30, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> The idea is that all the major studios only are allowed to work with unions so anything produced by the majors would be union jobs.


I don't think anyone has to worry about fees on a major studio picture...! However, if I was a director, I would make the argument that it was my creative right to hire a composer of my choice, and not have to use a union stooge.


NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> PROs like BMI and ASCAP protect songwriters but no one protects film and tv composers.



In what way do they protect anyone? AFAIK they just collect the Royalties and pass them on. I assume that you are talking about the rate of pay for Broadcast Royalties, in which case film and TV composers are also protected. The only exception being for theatrical release, and for some reason Americans chose not to receive any broadcast Royalties. When the films are shown on TV, they will get them though.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jun 30, 2020)

Daryl said:


> I don't think anyone has to worry about fees on a major studio picture...! However, if I was a director, I would make the argument that it was my creative right to hire a composer of my choice, and not have to use a union stooge.
> 
> 
> In what way do they protect anyone? AFAIK they just collect the Royalties and pass them on. I assume that you are talking about the rate of pay for Broadcast Royalties, in which case film and TV composers are also protected. The only exception being for theatrical release, and for some reason Americans chose not to receive any broadcast Royalties. When the films are shown on TV, they will get them though.


Composers do have to worry about fees on a major picture and a major tv show. One composer may be offered $800,000 to compose the score for a film while another composer is offered $75,000 for the same project. Don’t think for a second that major studios don’t try to take advantage of film and tv composers who are not at the top of the A-list with major representation, they do. I was offered $5,000 an episode for a tv show produced by a major studio, only to find out after the fact when it was too late that they could have paid me 5x that amount, but no one in the industry would help me with the negotiation nor would any other composer mentor me by telling me how much I should be paid. This business can be brutal if one is not very lucky.


----------



## GNP (Jun 30, 2020)

JoelS said:


> ...followed by "Every conversation I have ever had with a client or A&R rep or music supervisor, ever"
> 
> So, maybe not all have been that bad, but a whole lot of them are. It often comes down to people being unable to communicate their needs or ideas, or the language of communication having multiple possible valid interpretations.
> 
> ...



Agreed. What he said. 

It's really up to the composer to decipher what the client wants, and if the client changes his/her mind, just let it go. But if the client KEEPS changing their minds and just can't seem to decide on anything, it's time to gently but courteously let them know that time and money is at stake.


----------



## Daryl (Jun 30, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I was offered $5,000 an episode for a tv show produced by a major studio, only to find out after the fact when it was too late that they could have paid me 5x that amount


Union rates are only ever minimums. Maybe $5K is what the job pays. You want more, you have to negotiate.

Look, I'm not standing up for the studios, but a union might or might not be the answer. Certainly there are many cases of unions actually losing work for their members.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jun 30, 2020)

Daryl said:


> Union rates are only ever minimums. Maybe $5K is what the job pays. You want more, you have to negotiate.
> 
> Look, I'm not standing up for the studios, but a union might or might not be the answer. Certainly there are many cases of unions actually losing work for their members.


The problem often was that everytime I was offered work I would reach out to other composers in the biz, entertainment attorneys, film/tv composer agents and managers and ask them how much I could possibly negotiate for and no one would say a word. I couldn’t even get them to negotiate on my behalf most of the time even though they would be getting paid. I found the industry to be incredibly unhelpful. I have always tried to help people my whole life and yet that is not the case when I certainly could use help from others. When I hear other people being helped and mentored by others in this industry I have no clue what they are talking about. That is not been the world I live in. I don’t know what it’s like to get major help from anyone ever. I’m always helping others too, yet that Karma never comes back to me no matter how good a person I am.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jun 30, 2020)

Daryl said:


> I don't think anyone has to worry about fees on a major studio picture...! However, if I was a director, I would make the argument that it was my creative right to hire a composer of my choice, and not have to use a union stooge.
> 
> 
> In what way do they protect anyone? AFAIK they just collect the Royalties and pass them on. I assume that you are talking about the rate of pay for Broadcast Royalties, in which case film and TV composers are also protected. The only exception being for theatrical release, and for some reason Americans chose not to receive any broadcast Royalties. When the films are shown on TV, they will get them though.


Yes and no. TV composers are protected by the PROs if their music is for major prime time evening shows on the major networks as there can be a lot of royalties for the right time slot on a major network. But in general, there should be minimum creative fees for writing music for film and tv. Even the WGA has much better protection for tv writers than film writers. One could write a screenplay to a billion dollar box office smash hit movie and only get the $100,000 WGA minimum, that’s absurd. The WGA should secure minimum backend royalties for screenwriters not just for tv writers but they don’t. And, film and tv composers are far too at risk for being taken advantage of. The A-list is gonna get huge fees to compose, while everyone else could get easily screwed over and low balled. I would have never been taken advantage of by major studios if those in the biz simply communicated how much one can get for that kind of a project or if I simply had good representation which never happened.


----------



## Martin S (Jun 30, 2020)




----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jun 30, 2020)

Martin S said:


>



You rock, Christian, as usual I totally agree with you!! 🍾🥂 Thank God, you live in the world when I’m alive!!!
PS: I appreciate you and your marketing, don’t change for anyone and keep being you!!


----------



## GNP (Jun 30, 2020)

JoelS said:


> Those sorts of conversations are very common, at all levels of the music industry! If people who entered The Contest have not otherwise participated in the 'make music for money' industry, maybe they are imagining a very tidy and efficient career full of extremely thoughtful and well-reasoned encounters with their clients/bosses. From my several decades of experience, that is very much wishful thinking and nowhere near being reality.
> 
> That's how the industry works, very very often.



There ya go.


----------



## JJP (Jun 30, 2020)

In my experience I would not say that abusive behavior is a standard. However, it is not uncommon. Both my spouse and I work in Hollywood and we have seen and dealt with it in various forms. We have also worked with some absolutely delightful, successful people who think and care about those around them.

I think we often talk about what makes our industry unique, but many of us lack of experience outside our little niche and that often blinds us to the similarities with other industries. I should also add that most of us in this industry like to think that we are special, and we have an almost reflexive negative reaction to any suggestion that we may be similar to other industries in many ways.

The corporate world in general can be a abusive place as well. However, there are HR departments to attempt to mitigate some of the damage of that abuse -- particularly damage to the corporation, the employees are protected when it is perceived as to the corp's benefit.

We don't have HR departments in much of the film/TV music world because of outsourcing and contracting. This creates smaller businesses and compartmentalization. Some of this is by design by the larger producers/studios/networks who wish to insulate themselves from cost and responsibility for those creating their product. Thus when abuse occurs it can continue unchecked because there is no higher authority to hold perpetrators to account.

The comments about the lack of a composer union or guild are another good point. Music editors, writers, film editors, directors, all work in a similar freelance fashion and have joined together to collectively negotiate minimum standards to protect themselves in their workplaces. There is no reason why composers, or perhaps composer assistants, couldn't do the same. Residual and royalty structures can be accounted in a structure like that.

Again, we are not as different as we think.


----------



## JoelS (Jun 30, 2020)

JJP said:


> In my experience I would not say that abusive behavior is a standard.


I should probably clarify that to me, the OP's fictitious conversation is certainly depicting infuriating and frustrating behavior, but that doesn't always equate to being abusive. Using the term 'abusive' implies ill intentions, and often it is just a result of the realities of the industry.

I'll offer an example:

Part of my income is from writing library music for sync licensing. Often, libraries put out calls for cues that have tight deadlines for delivery to their clients - sometimes measured in hours rather than days.

So, a new TV series has a music editor that tells the library 'we need a hundred cues that sound like Taylor Swift meets Weird Al, but with a deep south trap beat! And NO harmonicas. Tomorrow.' (note: I would not submit to that call. I only look like Weird Al, don't sound like him. I'd never hit the right style.)

The library, who has probably worked with this client before, sends out the call to its stable of composers, maybe including a few examples. And they tell you that you have eight hours if you're going to submit. Sometimes the deadlines are looser, rarely more than a week. It depends on the library, though.

The hopeful composer then busts out their 'trap_dixie_funk_polka' template, unloads the harmonica VI in case it might accidentally slip in, and gets to work. Several hours and two cues complete later, time to send to the library.

Eventually, they get a reply saying 'thanks but no thanks, we hope to hear from you again,' or some more polite version. Were the tracks not trap enough? Weird enough? Al enough? Who knows. Well, the library knows, but they're sifting through 300 tracks an hour to deliver their client enough music to fill up their series. They do not have time to critique anything that doesn't immediately say to them 'this will work.'

In fairness, I'll also point out that there are libraries who will work a cue through a few rounds of revisions and accept it. Or through a revision or two and ultimately turn it down, for unclear reasons. They do not have time to mess around. Something in your cue did not sit well, so despite hitting all the checkboxes, it is not suitable for their client and the library has to move on. Quickly.

It sucks for the composer, who doesn't know what was wrong or if anything was really 'wrong' and it just didn't strike the right chord for the library based on their subjective (and often undisclosed) criteria. It's frustrating, but not abusive.


----------



## purple (Jun 30, 2020)

You may find actually that abusive behavior is just a standard of industry.


----------



## JJP (Jun 30, 2020)

JoelS said:


> So, a new TV series has a music editor that tells the library 'we need a hundred cues that sound like Taylor Swift meets Weird Al, but with a deep south trap beat! And NO harmonicas. Tomorrow.'



That is abusive on part of the library towards its composers. The library makes money because it doesn't have to pay for all the combined work from its composers to showcase 100 options to the editor. For the composer it becomes an absolute crap shoot as to whether your music is accepted. Instead they are being asked to use their work to bankroll the library.

Don't give me the patronizing "Well, that's just how it is." It doesn't have to be that way. The same thing was said about racism, sexism, slavery, child soldiers...


----------



## JoelS (Jun 30, 2020)

JJP said:


> That is abusive on part of the library towards its composers. The library makes money because it doesn't have to pay for all the combined work from its composers to showcase 100 options to the editor. For the composer it becomes an absolute crap shoot as to whether your music is accepted. Instead they are being asked to use their work to bankroll the library.
> 
> Don't give me the patronizing "Well, that's just how it is." It doesn't have to be that way. The same thing was said about racism, sexism, slavery, child soldiers...


I'd like it if it wasn't that way. I don't have a clue where someone would start changing that from the composer's side of things, unless it involved unionizing and a full overhaul of the way media is produced. The way media is produced _is_ changing, though not in ways that seem to favor the composer as much as they favor the producer.

I agree with you that such a system is very unfavorable towards the composer. I don't see it as abusive, though. I see it as the cost of doing business. The reward of being in a royalty system where tracks that do land can keep earning money for many years is enough to motivate me to submit to calls that fit my skills. I can find ways to re-purpose rejected tracks.

From my perspective, the whole industry is the crap shoot. There's no guarantee your music will be seen in royalty free markets, or that sync libraries will get you placements even if they accept your tracks, or that your new album will sell, or that anyone will visit your YouTube channel or pledge to your Patreon. 

I try to diversify my income streams so if one market declines, I can focus on some other aspect. I recommend everyone else do the same, especially new composers.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jun 30, 2020)

JJP said:


> That is abusive on part of the library towards its composers. The library makes money because it doesn't have to pay for all the combined work from its composers to showcase 100 options to the editor. For the composer it becomes an absolute crap shoot as to whether your music is accepted. Instead they are being asked to use their work to bankroll the library.
> 
> Don't give me the patronizing "Well, that's just how it is." It doesn't have to be that way. The same thing was said about racism, sexism, slavery, child soldiers...


I have no interest in ever composing for a music library.


----------



## JoelS (Jun 30, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I have no interest in ever composing for a music library.


I'm curious why you flatly rule it out. What are your reasons?

I am not advocating for or against it, but there are a lot of different types of libraries, different working arrangements, different things they need for their market segment. I've had frustrating experiences with them, but good ones as well, and having a BMI statement show up quarterly that lists tracks I composed ten years ago still earning me money keeps me interested in participating.

I'd say on the whole, I've had worse experiences working for clients directly than I have had with libraries, but I've also found it harder to land tracks in libraries than finding individuals to work with.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jun 30, 2020)

JoelS said:


> I'm curious why you flatly rule it out. What are your reasons?
> 
> I am not advocating for or against it, but there are a lot of different types of libraries, different working arrangements, different things they need for their market segment. I've had frustrating experiences with them, but good ones as well, and having a BMI statement show up quarterly that lists tracks I composed ten years ago still earning me money keeps me interested in participating.
> 
> I'd say on the whole, I've had worse experiences working for clients directly than I have had with libraries, but I've also found it harder to land tracks in libraries than finding individuals to work with.


I assume the only people making a good living are the ones who own the library, that’s all. If your cue for a 2 minute trailer is picked up one can get $20,000-$100,000, so why work for a $100 a cue.


----------



## JoelS (Jun 30, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I assume the only people making a good living are the ones who own the library, that’s all. If your cue for a 2 minute trailer is picked up one can get $20,000-$100,000, so why work for a $100 a cue.


I can only speak from my experience, but getting that trailer cue picked up is _hard_. Has been for me, anyway, though it's not a big focus of my work currently. That's an extremely competitive field.

There are a lot of library models. Ones that focus on sync licensing often don't pay up-front fees. You see money from royalties whenever the shows air that contain your cues, and get paid quarterly by the PRO you're in (BMI, ASCAP, others depending on your nationality). Others may do buyouts or have other pricing structures.

Maybe you're thinking of royalty free libraries? Tracks in those are often cheaply priced, but can be bought multiple times. The RF model has changed a lot in the last decade or so, imo for the worse, but if you compose in the genres that tend to sell well in that market, and have a large catalog, you can do well. You also have full creative freedom when you're putting your music in most of the 'marketplace' sites (Pond5, AJ, et al).

... but I'm dragging the thread off topic. I don't see libraries as inherently abusive.

I do think that those who have not yet participated in the music industry have misconceptions about what to expect when trying to get a foothold. I can only speak to my own perspective, which is someone who had no musical education or connections and chipped at the concrete around the industry until I made a crack big enough to slip through and (at least partially) inside. There are a lot of byzantine structures to navigate, persistent obfuscation, and gatekeeping in some areas, from what I've seen. There is also opportunity to be found, if you are diligent enough and lucky to live in a circumstance allowing you to persist.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jun 30, 2020)

JoelS said:


> I can only speak from my experience, but getting that trailer cue picked up is _hard_. Has been for me, anyway, though it's not a big focus of my work currently. That's an extremely competitive field.
> 
> There are a lot of library models. Ones that focus on sync licensing often don't pay up-front fees. You see money from royalties whenever the shows air that contain your cues, and get paid quarterly by the PRO you're in (BMI, ASCAP, others depending on your nationality). Others may do buyouts or have other pricing structures.
> 
> ...


Even if you had a music degree, this is an impossible industry to succeed in. The ones who do are luckier than they know. Most everyone else makes crumbs at best. Even if you get a break many producers and studios will try to get you for nothing or less than one deserves. I never said getting trailers is easy, it’s not. Nothing is easy in this biz. Personally I’m just not interested in writing for someone else’s music library. If u tell me I’m getting $5,000 or more in royalties each airing of an episode that’s different. But that’s rare to come by. You can bet the music libraries are making money selling or licensing your music so if you are literally getting nothing for a cue you are getting completely taken advantage of.


----------



## JoelS (Jun 30, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> if you are literally getting nothing for a cue you are getting completely taken advantage of.


The royalty payment system is weird, if you're not used to it... maybe even if you are used to it. Those tracks are definitely earning me money, and if I was really diligent I could figure out exactly how much each one of them has earned over their life. Every quarter, BMI sends a statement that shows the precise amount every track placement earned, what show it was in, and where it aired.






This is a little outtake from my most recent BMI report, showing a few tracks that were placed in History Channel shows. You can see how much they earned this quarter. Every time one of those programs airs, I get a payment, until they disappear into the aether and no longer air on TV. Placements on more popular shows will of course yield more views, and more earnings.

Most of my efforts are directed towards the videogame market, but I have a catalog of royalty free tracks and sync licensing tracks. 

Success can certainly come from the 'one big score,' if you land that trailer... but it's also achievable and more reliable if you build a large catalog of music for licensing in various ways. These little sums add up. It takes a while to get a catalog built up, and with sync licensing, a while after that to get the tracks to the shows, have the shows air, and royalties collected.

You can always sell your stuff directly, too, which can work if you build up an audience. Many composers have started their own boutique licensing libraries, too. For TV, the production houses have relationships with libraries so it's a pretty entrenched system. The benefit of listing tracks with a library that does sync licensing is that they have those existing relationships and you're more likely to get placements if you hit the right sound.

One way to make yourself less vulnerable to the abusive side of the industry is to have a number of different revenue streams, so you have the option to leave one part of the market if things are not working out, but continue earning money in other areas.


----------



## Cathbad (Jul 1, 2020)

JoelS said:


> There are a lot of byzantine structures to navigate, persistent obfuscation, and gatekeeping in some areas, from what I've seen. There is also opportunity to be found, if you are diligent enough and lucky to live in a circumstance allowing you to persist.



Excellent description.


----------



## JoelS (Jul 1, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> It is very ill-suited to every aspect of health, and to having a normal family life. The majority of permanently embedded entertainment industry people have unenviable lives, no matter their money.
> 
> The system is like an entity with no conscience.


Sadly, you could take this statement and directly apply it to the videogames industry as well. It's rife with truly abusive behavior especially perpetrated by the high-end AAA game developers. Sexual abuse, extremely unhealthy work practices, financial malfeasance. There's a reckoning going on right now, as a torrent of really awful stuff has been put into the public eye lately (and previously had been exposed in a more gradual way for years). I have some small hope it will result in systemic change.

It is possible to earn a living in music, games, creative media while avoiding abusive work conditions. It's probably not possible, though, to completely avoid conversations like the OP's invention when working in music. Individuals relate to music and communicate their ideas about music in very different ways. 

At some point, you will probably work for or with someone who doesn't know how to describe what they want, but does know what they like when they hear it. What they ask for will make perfect sense to them, and you may think you've interpreted their brief correctly, but it will turn out that is not the case.

I don't mean to suggest that I am infallible or that the composer is always right. There is a lot of subjective room for interpretation in music. Well-defined briefs will usually include several examples to illustrate what is wanted. Even that can be troublesome, though, if they just want you to copy the style.

If you want to avoid all that and still carve out a career in music, there are paths to do it.


----------



## Daryl (Jul 1, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Personally I’m just not interested in writing for someone else’s music library.


Fair enough. I agree, up to a point, which is why I started my own.

However, in the library world, I've never been abused, never had to work long hours, never had to make an impossible deadline, and it pays reasonably well, so have no reason to complain.


----------



## Cathbad (Jul 1, 2020)

JoelS said:


> Sadly, you could take this statement and directly apply it to the videogames industry as well. It's rife with truly abusive behavior especially perpetrated by the high-end AAA game developers. Sexual abuse, extremely unhealthy work practices, financial malfeasance. There's a reckoning going on right now, as a torrent of really awful stuff has been put into the public eye lately (and previously had been exposed in a more gradual way for years). I have some small hope it will result in systemic change.



Some of the scandals have concentrated on targets being gay or female or whatever. But I'm sure that plenty of people from ALL groups have been scammed and hustled in the gaming, music and movie worlds. 

I think the root cause is economic, not prejudice based on personal characteristics. There are plenty of predatory employers in all sectors, especially big companies who will screw workers in the blink of an eye over only a few hundred $$$. If they snake round their contractual obligations, or legal protections for employees, what can an exploited worker really do? A fast food or warehouse worker, or someone starting out in game dev probably can't afford to take legal action in absolute terms. But the time and effort needed to pursue redress is also a cost that's unaffordable when you gotta hit the road and find a new job.

Making public accusations and complaints on social media isn't the answer, because both sides are entitled to a fair hearing. That's why I'm in favour of unionisation for composers, and employment tribunals or other dispute resolution with easy access. Then we can sort out these issues dispassionately, within a framework of rules, with set penalties for breaches. Hopefully this will pull employers back into line with good practice, employees are happier, consumers get a better product, companies make more money. And then we'll get a virtuous cycle instead of the headlong race to the bottom we seem to have now.


----------



## JoelS (Jul 1, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> I think the root cause is economic, not prejudice based on personal characteristics. There are plenty of predatory employers in all sectors, especially big companies who will screw workers in the blink of an eye over only a few hundred $$$.


With the game industry, there's an ample supply of specifically targeted abuse based on personal characteristics, and also an equal bounty of non-specific hideousness driven by avarice. It does often punch down with greater fervor on minority groups, but overall it's an equal opportunity supplier of misery. If you're looking to have your hopes dashed, physical well-being degraded, and economic stability threatened, go work for a big game developer!

Fortunately, it's a giant market, and one doesn't have to work for the big players to make money and find some creative fulfillment at the same time. I think that applies to music, too, but it's not easy or simple to find the road to success. There is not a lot of clarity on how to get where you want to go, or security once you get there.

In my view, building up a large catalog of quality music that you can license in various ways through a variety of outlets will allow a composer to remain independent and exist outside the reach of most abusive situations.


----------



## jneebz (Jul 1, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I have no interest in ever composing for a music library.


Sweet.


----------



## construer (Jul 1, 2020)

I value so much these comments. I'm currently making curriculums for the next school year and this thread gives me a lot of ideas about teaching social skills and how to protect oneself from internalizing abusive behavior and spreading it around even if a person must work in an abusive environment. 

I agree that having a choice is a key. Being dependent of any one job is taking chances. I constantly think about leaving my teaching job and completely commit to psychotherapy and composing, but that job does provide me an opportunity to choose what I'm doing and how much. And it did save me from being dependant of abusive psychotherapy supervisor. 

It is clear to me that a lot of abuse is happening. Just the other day, an actress friend asked a producer why her fee for a theater play is late, and got an answer: "Why didn't you called earlier?! Now, money is spent." And that's the final answer. 

What was new for me was a structure of the abuse from my example. Usually, people will bully you into doing something they ask for but you don't want. Like working for free, doing work you didn't sign up for, providing favors or sexual pleasures... It was strange to encounter that someone is attacking someone for willingly doing what she/he was asked for. 

Changing mind or ditching creative solution completely is acceptable to me. I find it normal part of creative process. Once, I was doing this long ad for a business venue. Producer asked for baroque music. I suppose he associated Bach's music with grandiose spaces. It was clear to me that it won't work, but I did what he wanted. Of course he changed his mind, several times. However, he never attacked and insulted me for making what he asked for in the first place. 

Yes, my post is inspired by Spitfire/Westworld competition and how it was subsequently handled. And how most accomplished professionals were supportive of abuse. But I didn't want it to be about this particular event and about this particular people. I'm interested in underlying processes which is why my example is the underlying structure of communication that took place and not the actual conversation that happened. And I was baffled with a conclusion that it is just how media industry works. In #MeToo movement, even those whose career was made by the abuser spoke against him. 

For some time, I believe that the only way to prevent abusive behaviors is by influencing broader environment. Through unions or some other organizations, or raising voice like in #MeToo movement. 

In my country, however, the only available way is some kind of self protection from such environment, since even those organizations that exists and in theory serves to protect victim are corrupted. This, I believe, will be my task for this summer: creating a series of workshops about how to recognize abusive behavior, others' and own too, how to separate it from creative stress and process, how to process it and how to react. 

All those comments are so valuable source of ideas. Thanks.


----------



## dgburns (Jul 1, 2020)

Far be it from me to offer anyone advice. That said, I’ve always done my best work when everyone else on the production had lost their collective minds and had gone insane- and I mean verifiable. I have seen things that can not be put down to words, as you would not believe me. Others here have similar stories. You must master the art of navigating shark infested waters you have no idea how treacherous they are, until you get bitten — a thousand times. Each time, you come back aware of the last attack, anticipating the potholes and setbacks. Some are big ones, like legal things, things that can kill careers if you are not up to the task.

This is what happens, this is showbiz, this is not a rational industry, there is nothing sane about it, it is high risk from every angle you look at. I’d like to offer you some chocolate and a million dollars to make it all better, but I fear that this would simply make matters worse, as the chocolate is going to melt and get all over your hands, and you may not be able to deal with it. I’m kidding of course, in a kind hearted sorta way.

The world does not want or need another film or tv show. The buying public is bombarded with content, some of it with high production values. This is the environment we now live in. You should think of this when you sit down to write your Ben Hur, as the chances that you will have an impact on the industry is minimal at best. This is the kind of thing that is circling in the minds of your abusive employers, they are hoping to make an impact, and also face this challenge, and most of them fail along with your mighty underscore, the one you will complain got turned down so low you can’t hear it under the sound effects and dialog.

I was kidding about the money, you still want the chocolate?


----------



## construer (Jul 1, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Composers do have to worry about fees on a major picture and a major tv show. One composer may be offered $800,000 to compose the score for a film while another composer is offered $75,000 for the same project. Don’t think for a second that major studios don’t try to take advantage of film and tv composers who are not at the top of the A-list with major representation, they do. I was offered $5,000 an episode for a tv show produced by a major studio, only to find out after the fact when it was too late that they could have paid me 5x that amount, but no one in the industry would help me with the negotiation nor would any other composer mentor me by telling me how much I should be paid. This business can be brutal if one is not very lucky.



Is then, having a mentor you trust a must? Could it be advisable solution to inexperienced (young) people?


----------



## construer (Jul 1, 2020)

JoelS said:


> I try to diversify my income streams so if one market declines, I can focus on some other aspect. I recommend everyone else do the same, especially new composers.



This, I believe, is very important. Diversifying income streams makes you more safe, less dependant on anything or anyone.


----------



## construer (Jul 1, 2020)

Martin S said:


>




If I understood correctly, the message of these two videos is that film scoring environment was a lot more crammed with narcissists and that now it gets better; that there are still toxic people in that environment and that a person should either learn how to deal with them, or to move away from them if she/he doesn't want to put up with that. 

I did some search but failed to verify for sure that Martin H. is really Christian. If that is true... 

This attitude 'I'm dickhead, deal with it' divides customers/audience into two categories: 

those who have self-respect and remove themselves from toxic environment; and
those whose self-esteem is low enough to put up with abusive behaviour. 

This makes me sad, because I had plans to use Labs in a classroom and to use my entry (made with Labs only) to show them that they don't have to use cracked software to achieve musically meaningful result.


----------



## construer (Jul 1, 2020)

Reading all this, I'm so grateful for my current situation. I am doing uncredited work for one international media agency. Getting briefs, delivering, getting notes, doing changes... Occasionally, I get unsatisfied because I can not use my work to build my career. But I never asked about handling clients. Now, I am actually grateful to my producer for sheltering me from toxic environment.


----------



## dzilizzi (Jul 1, 2020)

Maybe I've just worked and lived in too many abusive situations, but sometimes I think people have become too, I don't know, soft? I didn't get the backlash over the winner. I even entered and didn't win. That was fine. Suddenly an entry everyone here thought had a chance of winning was bad? Spitfire was awful for picking something that broke the rules? And the people actually making the final decision aren't even discussed? 

I see comments here about directors wanting one thing but realizing it wasn't what they wanted when they heard it. And? It wasn't abusive. But these contest commenters complaining saying there was cheating, they were entitled to have their piece heard by JJ Abrams, David is a pro and it is an inside job, etc..., is not abuse? And people responding that this is how contests like this work is abusive? 

I guess I don't get this. There is real abuse going on out there. But at some point we need to find a way to differentiate between real abuse and "my feelings were hurt". Anyway, maybe you can explain it to me.


----------



## JoelS (Jul 1, 2020)

@construer Addressing a few points:

If you can find a trusted mentor, it probably doesn't hurt, assuming that person is worth the trust and knows what they're talking about. It's not a necessity, more a luxury, and probably something of a rarity these days. With all the prospective composers around, I think the mentor supply is probably rather thin.

That said, you'll often find people on this forum who are really helpful. Case in point, @dciurlizza Daniel Ciurlizza was really helpful to me two years ago (... _two years?! _Time moves fast) and I'd never spoken to him before that, didn't know him, came into contact here on this forum. There are people willing to help, at all levels of the industry.

Just be wary of any situation where there is a power dynamic at play. Mentor-student relationships can turn problematic fast, or can be rewarding and fulfilling. Caution seems advisable.



construer said:


> I did some search but failed to verify for sure that Martin H. is really Christian. If that is true...


I don't know what you're referring to here, but Christian has done a lot to advance the world of sampled instruments, and is very generous of his time in making educational material and discussing industry issues. The amount of flak he takes for being a visible industry pro who will speak off the cuff is really just... mind boggling to me. The sheer amount of free materials he has made available to people is enormous. 

Do people want industry professionals to be bland robots who don't have an opinion and don't behave like human beings? Does success necessitate some abdication of personality for fear of offending people? 

I don't know Christian personally, I haven't ever spoken to him, but I have tremendous respect for his contributions to the art of using sampled instruments in music and educating media composers.

Look at the overall picture. This also extends to personal attacks directed at other developers which I have seen many, many times here. These people are not out to swindle you, cheat you, or otherwise harm you. It's possible to simultaneously be a businessman, artist, and regular human who reacts in ways humans do.

The VI sampling world is still pretty small (though 11k entries to that contest rewrites my perception of its size somewhat) and the people at the forefront of it are still people and not SONY or some faceless corporation.

The sentiment that seems to pit them as antagonists and/or abusers really bothers me.

I'm not saying they are above criticism, but they are also not the enemy.


----------



## Henu (Jul 1, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Maybe I've just worked and lived in too many abusive situations, but sometimes I think people have become too, I don't know, soft?



Couldn't agree more. Not talking about this topic particularly, but it seems that nowadays so many people feel so goddamn entitled to everything it makes me laugh. Or cry. Could also be a generation thing- being born in the late 70's myself has given me good dose of cynicism as a generational trait and protection against that, hah!

Besides, the first rule in "personal feelings in professionality" is that there are no personal feelings in professionality.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 1, 2020)

Henu said:


> Besides, the first rule in "personal feelings in professionality" is that there are no personal feelings in professionality.



People get pretty personal in professional environments all the time. Some of them will then call you unprofessional if you're bothered by it.


----------



## Henu (Jul 1, 2020)

That's exactly my point. Let's _not_ be those abovementioned unprofessionals ourselves.


----------



## construer (Jul 1, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Maybe I've just worked and lived in too many abusive situations, but sometimes I think people have become too, I don't know, soft? I didn't get the backlash over the winner. I even entered and didn't win. That was fine. Suddenly an entry everyone here thought had a chance of winning was bad? Spitfire was awful for picking something that broke the rules? And the people actually making the final decision aren't even discussed?
> 
> I see comments here about directors wanting one thing but realizing it wasn't what they wanted when they heard it. And? It wasn't abusive. But these contest commenters complaining saying there was cheating, they were entitled to have their piece heard by JJ Abrams, David is a pro and it is an inside job, etc..., is not abuse? And people responding that this is how contests like this work is abusive?
> 
> I guess I don't get this. There is real abuse going on out there. But at some point we need to find a way to differentiate between real abuse and "my feelings were hurt". Anyway, maybe you can explain it to me.



I would like to see this conversation going in more general fashion then arguing about specific event. There are threads for that. 

For me, if producer/director change his mind and then accuse me of being a problem, how dare I to obey his wishes, I would find it abusive. And is from a psychological viewpoint. I actually, witnessed for the first time such behavior in a music composing context, let alone in a competition context. Let alone someone accusing 10k people of being a problem. And that excuse: that is how media world works. I wondered is it really? 

Of course, in psychotherapeutic work I've heard a lot about such behavior and witnessed how damaging it is. Even on a small scale. 

I might be snowflake, being sheltered from dealing with media clients directly. Or being someone who people can't drag into a fight (their words). Are we all soft? Even people who have significant careers?


----------



## Henu (Jul 1, 2020)

The word "abusive" has suffered a great inflation lately in my books. It's a bit like at some point everyone who as an asshole was labeled instantly as "narcist" by people. It became _the_ expression for people who were pricks, even though psychologically it didn't hold water almost at all.

The faster we can just label all those people as "assholes" in our minds and move on without losing our marbles, the better. No-one's going to shelter us from them or give us a prize for tolerating their behaviour, but it is solely _our_ job to wipe these people from our lives. Not our moms', friends' (unless our friends run a motorcycle club) or colleagues' task, but ours. Also, Karma is a bitch.


----------



## construer (Jul 1, 2020)

JoelS said:


> It sucks for the composer, who doesn't know what was wrong or if anything was really 'wrong' and it just didn't strike the right chord for the library based on their subjective (and often undisclosed) criteria. It's frustrating, but not abusive.



The most "pissed off" I got when a producer asked for a 10 min piece, and then changed it to a 8 min. I was 'silently pissed off' because I had to remove the best part, full orchestral part, that was THE best part I've probably ever written up to that point. He probably picked up that I was pissed off because when he actually decided to extend video to 12 min he didn't tell me, just copied one part one more time. 

I don't find this to be abusive. Changing minds and creative solutions has to be possible until release. If he attacked me for writing 10 min piece, instead of 8 min piece without mentioning anything about final duration being open, I would for certain attack him back.


----------



## Martin S (Jul 1, 2020)

Just to clarify to OP : I'm a dirt poor (formerly professional) Conservatory educated Jazz Double bassist from Denmark, and a hobbyist composer who happens to like Mr. Henson's products a lot. I've no affiliation with Spitfire or Mr. Henson and have never met him and probably never will.

I just watched the two videos I linked to in my previous post a week ago and thought they were touching some subjects that were also addressed in your Original post. I do think, however, that Mr. Henson's video regarding 'weaponising empathy' is of great value, and I'd recommend watching it more than once.

As I've no experience with the tv/film/composer industry (and also live in a highly unionized country) I'm appalled at the apparent level of abuse/lack of tolerance/empathy/consideration etc. in this very industry that I hear about from VI members, as well as in Mr. Henson's videos. If I ever had a dream (which I don't) of entering that industry, I'm now certain that I'll stay away and continue to make music entirely for my own pleasure 

I do believe though, that this narcissistic B.S. of this (any) industry needs to be smothered to death by empathy, which is basically what I hear Mr. Henson is advocating for in the above mentioned videos (overly simplified, I know).

Alas, the narcissistic element has infiltrated every corner of the world over the last 2 - maybe 3 - decades and is flourishing like never before. I see it everywhere I go : people living with their heads deeply and firmly located in a certain part of their anatomy !! It's like a new normal.. In my naivety I still believe it's possible to reverse engineer this selfish and stupid behaviour, and make empathy the highest (and smartest) priority.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 1, 2020)

construer said:


> Is then, having a mentor you trust a must? Could it be advisable solution to inexperienced (young) people?


It’s ideal if you can get one, but figuring out how to get a top pro to be your mentor is very challenging and requires a lot of luck.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 1, 2020)

construer said:


> I value so much these comments. I'm currently making curriculums for the next school year and this thread gives me a lot of ideas about teaching social skills and how to protect oneself from internalizing abusive behavior and spreading it around even if a person must work in an abusive environment.
> 
> I agree that having a choice is a key. Being dependent of any one job is taking chances. I constantly think about leaving my teaching job and completely commit to psychotherapy and composing, but that job does provide me an opportunity to choose what I'm doing and how much. And it did save me from being dependant of abusive psychotherapy supervisor.
> 
> ...


I strongly suggest you keep your teaching job.


----------



## Cathbad (Jul 1, 2020)

Trying to see things from an apparent asshole's perspective can go a long way to clearing up unsatisfactory issues. I remember thinking this when there were stories in the news about Harvey Weinstein screaming and shouting at people on the job.

A while back, I used to run a small ensemble. Folks, you would not BELIEVE how difficult it is to get 6 people in a room at once. And this was for well-paying work. I did all the booking & marketing, wrote all the charts, even set out the stands and chairs. ALL they had to do was turn up and get paid but noooo...

That's just a sextet gigging nationally. I certainly never screamed or shouted at anyone but I can quite understand someone's frustration getting the better of them when trying to pull together a multi million $ international movie production.


----------



## dzilizzi (Jul 1, 2020)

construer said:


> I would like to see this conversation going in more general fashion then arguing about specific event. There are threads for that.
> 
> For me, if producer/director change his mind and then accuse me of being a problem, how dare I to obey his wishes, I would find it abusive. And is from a psychological viewpoint. I actually, witnessed for the first time such behavior in a music composing context, let alone in a competition context. Let alone someone accusing 10k people of being a problem. And that excuse: that is how media world works. I wondered is it really?
> 
> ...


Well I'm using this as an example because it seems the losers got abusive first. When an producer says we are not picking your entry because we liked this one better, do you really have the right to get abusive when the producer didn't say anything bad about your entry, but just I like this one better? Because it seems to me the producers were personally attacked - and the winner definitely was - for no other reason than the producer liked the product. This was what I don't understand. I'm being told these attacks are not abuse but that the response is? 

Sorry, I'm not wanting to bring this up specifically which is why I'm trying to put it in general terms. But it is the same if you put in a sample into a sample library in the hopes of getting a job and you don't get it. Is is really abusive to be told this doesn't work for the client and find they went for something different? Or would it be abusive to come here and write posts and posts about how awful this sample library company is because they had the audacity to ask you to submit and then not use it?

I really think if you can't handle a "No" with no further explanation and consider it abuse, you have a problem. Because that is what I'm hearing from all this.


----------



## construer (Jul 2, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I strongly suggest you keep your teaching job.



Public education is a toxic environment in its own right. Instead of tuning itself to a student's growth needs, it tries to forcibly squeeze her/him into the curriculum goals. And I'm so conflicted because of being an agent of such behavior. But that is offtopic.


----------



## construer (Jul 2, 2020)

(My english is hitting its limits. Some sentences might be unintelligible. I'm sorry for that.)

I agree that it is hard to speak in the general terms about any particular event. My general approach is to publicly speak about behaviors and not persons. It takes a lot of time to get to know someone, and it might be never possible. In my thought process, attaching names to behaviors helps me organize my thoughts and speaks nothing about that person per se.

It also helps understanding aggressor, which helps in doing any business with her/him. In this case, my gaze was point to environment. I know that my approach can come across as too soft, but also opposite approach can come across as too insensitive. The difference is subjective and is dependant on life experience in a particular environment.

I'm also (as a psychotherapist) trained to catch double binding elements (mixed messages) in a clients narrative, usually in a small details. That's maybe why some things look huuuge to me.

There was a couple double binding elements in this event:

"Here is what we want." - "Why did you write what we want? We didn't want that."
"We are about community." - "Fuck you our existing and potential community."

Double binding, even at a minor scale, is quite distressing. Minor double binding distress ends faster, but can be very intensive and damaging. And it always makes a mind of a person who got hit by it to go into overdrive. Which then leads to violent and out of place reactions like attacking a winner in person, to wrongly attacking for nepotism... It was made even worse by the source-of-distress choosing to go deaf, so people tried to find any channel to be heard.

The only legit attack is the one aimed at the contest for ditching its own formal rules. That is why contest was abusive first.

The difference between hurt and abuse is tricky one, and there is no consensus about definitions. I see abuse (_abnormal use_) as betrayal of a social contract person agreed to: if a person signed up for marriage, she/he didn't sign up for physical violence; if a parent sign up for sending her/his kid to school, she/he didn't sign up for a kid to be sexually violated; if a person signed up for delivering music, she/he didn't sign up for being gaslighted.

In a case of any contest, formal rules are even legally binding. I have never witnessed any competition that publicly threw its own rules into a dirt. Someone suggested a class action lawsuit. It would probably take place if entrants paid for this contest.

Social contract betrayal that this contest did is for sure not as severe as other examples I've mentioned. I was struck by a sheer volume of it: thousands and thousands of people were harmed. And I was even more struck by support this behavior received from the industry professionals. Which pointed my eyes to environment in which all this happened.

(EDIT: A few grammatical errors.)


----------



## Henu (Jul 2, 2020)

Wait....I'm a bit slow and it just hit me. Is this all about the Spitfire contest?


----------



## thesteelydane (Jul 2, 2020)

JoelS said:


> @construer Addressing a few points:
> 
> If you can find a trusted mentor, it probably doesn't hurt, assuming that person is worth the trust and knows what they're talking about. It's not a necessity, more a luxury, and probably something of a rarity these days. With all the prospective composers around, I think the mentor supply is probably rather thin.
> 
> ...



Completely agree. I once received a very abusive email because I dared give away a free instrument that required the full version of Kontakt. I know of another developer who literally received death threats for the same reason. 

Luckily I grew in the classical conservatory environment so I have pretty thick skins


----------



## construer (Jul 2, 2020)

Henu said:


> Wait....I'm a bit slow and it just hit me. Is this all about the Spitfire contest?


I thought that I wrote in some comment. This post is inspired (triggered?) by it, and by conclusion that it is just how industry works. 
Having limited experience (I've literally worked with 3 producers in 15 years, one local, two foreign) I needed the insights about this. 

Reading comments, I got an idea, a kernel of idea actually, about creating workshops for my school about dealing with toxic environment. Now I got interested in personal stories about most beautiful and most abusive behavior they experienced, and about consequences of those behaviors. 

Since I'm new on forum (registered in february), I don't know vi-control culture well. Are people willing to share personal stories (with names and brands omitted, of course)?


----------



## Jay Panikkar (Jul 2, 2020)

The 'industry standard' consists of double standards maintained by those who have no standards. The 'industry standard' consists of dupes and weasels who make big speeches about individuality and diversity while they attach themselves to the latest groupthink and hunt down anyone who has a different opinion. Eventually—and inevitably—the dupes and weasels trip over head first into their own monumental bullshit.

Much of the Western market is a big fat joke, as are the people in it. I'll be surprised if it doesn't burst into flames within the next 20 years.  I've seen the Japanese cartoon market employ better standard and culture. Heck, even markets in third-world countries try to reach for higher. Maybe it's a reflection of your current culture, because the same behaviour can be observed all over your social media and in this very forum.


----------



## construer (Jul 2, 2020)

thesteelydane said:


> Luckily I grew in the classical conservatory environment so I have pretty thick skins


Have a stories to share? 
I'm also classically educated, and my 'tough' encounters are pretty silly. And always were ground in someone's lack of interest to understand what I'm doing. 

I would like to hear what's going on in that world.


----------



## thesteelydane (Jul 2, 2020)

construer said:


> Have a stories to share?
> I'm also classically educated, and my 'tough' encounters are pretty silly. And always were ground in someone's lack of interest to understand what I'm doing.
> 
> I would like to hear what's going on in that world.



Well, it was many years ago, and I no longer play in orchestras. When studying there was the occasional bully teacher that would make you feel like shit about your playing, and by extension yourself. You definitely feel that everyone, students and teachers alike, judge your worth as a human being on how well you play - I think most music students think like that about themselves at some point, until they have enough self-esteem to realise its bullshit.

After that I worked 10 years in various orchestras, where you would get the occasional bully conductor. Some would scream abuse at the entire orchestra, some would single out people, and pick on them - like make a tutti player play a particularly difficult spot solo in front of the entire orchestra. I understand you need to have a massive ego to be a conductor in the first place, but luckily that type of conductor is a dying breed - most orchestras won't stand for it anymore. Orchestras can be pretty mean to new conductors as well - it takes all of 10 minutes on Monday morning for an orchestra to collectively decide if they like this week's conductor, and if they don't it's gonna be a long week.


----------



## Daryl (Jul 2, 2020)

thesteelydane said:


> I understand you need to have a massive ego to be a conductor in the first place....


LOLZ


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 2, 2020)

I fear that if you are primed (as many people increasingly seem to be) to view any interaction with another human that does not completely satisfy your prior expectations as "abusive" or "toxic", then that is indeed what you will mainly experience.


----------



## construer (Jul 2, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I fear that if you are primed (as many people increasingly seem to be) to view any interaction with another human that does not completely satisfy your prior expectations as "abusive" or "toxic", then that is indeed what you will mainly experience.


That is true. I have a really broad range of acceptable behaviors. Violent behavior, like yelling and screaming, in order for a job to be done is ok. Double-binding and gaslighting is a big NO!


----------



## dzilizzi (Jul 2, 2020)

construer said:


> That is true. I have a really broad range of acceptable behaviors. Violent behavior, like yelling and screaming, in order for a job to be done is ok. Double-binding and gaslighting is a big NO!


But what is gaslighting? I hear that term thrown around a lot, usually when someone's expectations don't match to what was actually offered. I think most of the time it is used, it is not what is actually happening. 

I took a class once where the teacher was talking about expectations and filtering. So, I perceive love as chicken soup. But you say you love me and give me tomato soup. To you absolute love is a perfect bowl of tomato soup. But I don't feel love because you haven't given me chicken soup and I hate tomato soup. You keep giving me more and more tomato soup, is this abusive when I hate it? I say you don't love me. You don't understand how I could say that. But what if I start calling you names and say what an awful person you are and you don't know how to love anyone, am I the abuser? 

I think a lot of the "abuse" and "gaslighting" people claim is happening comes from this. And it will happen a lot in any creative industry where interpretations are allowed. And? It doesn't mean your interpretation will fit the other person's interpretation.


----------



## JJP (Jul 2, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> Trying to see things from an apparent asshole's perspective can go a long way to clearing up unsatisfactory issues. I remember thinking this when there were stories in the news about Harvey Weinstein screaming and shouting at people on the job.



I have friends and colleagues who worked for and with Harvey. One had Harvey threaten to turn a desk over onto him and threaten other forms of violence. The man's behavior, even beyond the sexual assaults, is not excusable from any perspective.

There are people who are abusive until some other force is strong enough to stop their behavior. Trying to understand them can help our perspective, but among the worst offenders reasoning with them is not a solution for their victims. It also cannot change the fact that what they are doing is wrong and unacceptable in most any situation.

Some of these people do work in the film/TV industry. I've dealt with them and have been forced to stand up to them. I am not convinced they are the majority, but they do exist. It's impossible to draw conclusions about an entire industry based on anecdotes.

It's also important to differentiate between a simple outburst from a person under a lot of stress and a pattern of behavior. The former is usually isolated or at least infrequent, is usually interpreted by colleagues as out-of-character, and often involves genuine contrition and attempts to avoid that behavior in the future. The latter carries on for long periods of time across various projects and is often seen as common for the person, sometimes even involving co-workers and employees having whole procedures built around hiding, avoiding, or mitigating the effect of the negative behaviors.


----------



## José Herring (Jul 2, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> If there was a union for composers then most film and tv jobs would have to pay at the minimum rates for composers based on the type of project. This would prevent a lot of undercutting.


The union in LA has killed music production in Los Angeles. Britain seems to have a great music union. Here in the US we just don't do unions right. 

While having a composers union may seem like a great idea on paper, in real life, using the current music union as an example, it totally sucks and does more to stop people from advancing than to foster an environment of equality.


----------



## Arthur Lewis (Jul 2, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I fear that if you are primed (as many people increasingly seem to be) to view any interaction with another human that does not completely satisfy your prior expectations as "abusive" or "toxic", then that is indeed what you will mainly experience.



This also goes the other way. If you are primed to view other humans as the one at fault if they describe your behavior as “abusive” or “toxic”, you’re probably going to hear those words a lot.


----------



## JJP (Jul 2, 2020)

josejherring said:


> The union in LA has killed music production in Los Angeles. Britain seems to have a great music union.



Sorry Jose, can't let this go. That is a false opinion driven by misunderstanding of the actual issues around production and recording.

I can say this with authority as someone who works as a musician in LA, helps negotiate contracts with the major studios in the USA, and who also converses with musicians in London about the common issues we all face. The approaches are different in each location, and each has its advantages and disadvantages.


----------



## JohnG (Jul 2, 2020)

JJP said:


> I think we often talk about what makes our industry unique, but many of us lack of experience outside our little niche and that often blinds us to the similarities with other industries.



Exactly.

If you are working with a tiny, local business things aren't so competitive, whether you're a driver, delivering lunch, or a supplier. By contrast, if you want to work for UPS or any Fortune 500 company, you have to expect a ruthless environment ("merciless" might be another word, or "unforgiving") and be willing to prove yourself over and over, with every job.

*It's Not Exactly Abuse...*

So, if you're on a network show or a movie that's going to theaters, it's the same. Filming and distributing movies in theaters routinely costs over $200 million now. Theatrical distribution and marketing alone can cost over $100 million, with $20 million often cited as the bare minimum. Thousands of people, if there are CGI effects, may have worked on the film and the director / producer may have been on the film for many years.

If the film bombs, their careers are OVER quite often. And unfortunately, by the time they come to the music, there's a good chance that they know if they have a bad film and sometimes the stress / career doom they're feeling will leak out, however unfairly.

With that kind of pressure, it is not surprising that you have to perform at a superhuman level all the time, interpret / guess what they '_really_' mean when they ask for something, and deal with contradictory notes and politics from sometimes dozens of people. They may change their minds twice in three sentences. It's our job to know when to ask for clarification and when to just do something based on those contradictions.

It's the same in many businesses. Weekends? Holidays? forget it.

As Jeffrey Katzenberg supposedly said, "if you don't come in on Saturday, don't even bother coming in on Sunday."


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 2, 2020)

If you write a cue to a brief and the producer says "Why did you do that??", it is literally your job to say "oh I'm so sorry, I must have misunderstood the brief, how can we make it better?", rather than saying "omg toxic abuser".


----------



## JohnG (Jul 2, 2020)

JJP said:


> Sorry Jose, can't let this go. That is a false opinion driven by misunderstanding of the actual issues around production and recording.
> 
> I can say this with authority as someone who works as a musician in LA, helps negotiate contracts with the major studios in the USA, and who also converses with musicians in London about the common issues we all face. The approaches are different in each location, and each has its advantages and disadvantages.



I used to be in the union. For 20 years, I heard the mantra, "if they want the best, they will have to work with us here in Los Angeles."

I think the mistakes have been many, but this idea that the Local 47 musicians were irreplaceable was the biggest. They are indeed great -- not saying otherwise. Just not, as it turns out, irreplaceable.

There were six major recording stages in Los Angeles when I started and now there are two, unless I'm mistaken.


----------



## JJP (Jul 2, 2020)

There are a number of things I could answer to this, but let's stay on topic.


----------



## markwind (Jul 2, 2020)

Why would this industry be anything else but an industry? A collection of people with wide ranging backgrounds, traits, faults, and pros. Ultimately it's human. And humans have faults, and some folks bring those faults with them. There may well be trends of unacceptable behavior. But not uniquely so to our industry.

Also, identifying a trend of abuse behavior, doesn't define the industry, it defines a trend. A trend doesn't imply dominant or standard. In other words identifying a trend doesn't reflect the measure with which the trend operates in any given industry.

I'd shy away from thinking or looking for anything 'standard' for any industry when it comes to behavior. You either err on naivity or cynical bitterness.

Also if your post is informed by the westworld contest backlash? I'd argue you're not looking at industry behavior, but consumer behavior.


----------



## José Herring (Jul 2, 2020)

JJP said:


> I can say this with authority as someone who works as a musician in LA, helps negotiate contracts with the major studios in the USA, and who also converses with musicians in London about the common issues we all face. The approaches are different in each location, and each has its advantages and disadvantages.



I do have a deep understanding of at least here in Los Angeles and if you are in position to do something about it, please by all means do.

I may be fuzzy because i haven't looked into it in a while.

The idea of secondary market payments has killed all new innovation in recording a majority of film and trailer music and also of legally doing sampling sessions, ect... Most independent companies and even major ones won't sign on to that agreement. It puts composers in a weird position where we have to either go dark or we have to record overseas or just use synths and samples and not hire players.

Remote recording under union rules is forbidden, so doing recordings via internet for LA musicians is not allowed. So again if I need to hire a union member to do an overdub here in Los Angeles, I can't legally do that. So I usually hire people outside of Los Angeles which is too bad.

As a result of the necessity that all productions be union based here in Los Angeles rules out 99% of the potential work that could happen here. As a result scoring stages have shuttered and have been in danger of going totally extinct for lack of business. In a place like Hollywood were 90% of film and tv production happens, this is unacceptable.

So in the end, what has transpired is that for the few top flight studio films that get made in a year, the same players get called over and over again getting stupid wealthy on wages and secondary market payments while most musicians starve. Too afraid to get a real job because they need to be available in case they get a call which more often than not doesn't come.

I know some attempts have been made to fix the situation but in reality they've all been ineffective. The number of sessions here is way down from what it was 25 years ago by actual statistics and the union trying to hold onto old rules concerning overdubbing, secondary market payments, exclusive contracts with studios at the expense of independents, library music and other forms of music production has driven work away from LA rather than foster a progressive environment that would bring work to LA.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not trying to be really anti-union. I just want a union that helps all the talented musicians rather than just a few and revitalize recording here in LA. So far it hasn't happened.

So I'm desperate. Not because I ever aspired to be a union player but because I have so many friends that are that are truly suffering that I would love to hire but really legally can't. I don't even feel comfortable doing dark dates. Even doing demos using union musicians then prohibits me from selling that demo to a library or production company to actually get some money. So in the end, for the last 10 years I haven't even done one session in Los Angeles. That's heartbreaking. I moved here to be part of the LA scene and to see it get abandoned, while scoring stages close-- and I'm sorry but I blame antiquated union rules more than anything for the decline of music production here in Hollywood.

Slap me silly if I'm wrong. I'm not a weak little person that can't take being corrected and I don't even mind abuse if it leads to a better solution. I actually want to find a solution and want to work with the union as best I can, but as a primarily indie composer I find that I usually can't even hire one dude to do overdubs while I could hire anybody I wanted in Nashville or from Vegas or overseas. The union tends to work with people in those places to find creative solutions to modern day music production rather than hold on to old rules that are no longer valid except for in the most ideal of circumstances here in LA


----------



## JJP (Jul 2, 2020)

@josejherring There are a number of things in you post that are inaccurate, like the ban on remote recording. In fact until recently, the AFM discounted rates for remote recording because of Covid. However, this isn't the place to discuss the many complicated issues you raise.


----------



## construer (Jul 2, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> But what is gaslighting? I hear that term thrown around a lot, usually when someone's expectations don't match to what was actually offered. I think most of the time it is used, it is not what is actually happening.
> 
> I took a class once where the teacher was talking about expectations and filtering. So, I perceive love as chicken soup. But you say you love me and give me tomato soup. To you absolute love is a perfect bowl of tomato soup. But I don't feel love because you haven't given me chicken soup and I hate tomato soup. You keep giving me more and more tomato soup, is this abusive when I hate it? I say you don't love me. You don't understand how I could say that. But what if I start calling you names and say what an awful person you are and you don't know how to love anyone, am I the abuser?
> 
> I think a lot of the "abuse" and "gaslighting" people claim is happening comes from this. And it will happen a lot in any creative industry where interpretations are allowed. And? It doesn't mean your interpretation will fit the other person's interpretation.


You are right, thinking differently is not gaslighting or abuse. 
Gaslighting would be if you tell me that for you love is chicken soup, I hand a chicken soup to you and you throw it at me yelling 'why don't you love me'. And further: 'but you said so', ' no I didn't, you just don't listen to me 
In creative industries, where a lot of things are matter of taste and non-verbal processing that can not be communicated, it is easy to wrongly label behaviors. However, there are some technicalities that can be measured and not matter of taste. Like, duration of music for ad, or instrumentation, once I was "ordered" in which style music has to be. Those things can get to be gaslighting.


----------



## José Herring (Jul 2, 2020)

JJP said:


> @josejherring There are a number of things in you post that are inaccurate, like the ban on remote recording. In fact until recently, the AFM discounted rates for remote recording because of Covid. However, this isn't the place to discuss the many complicated issues you raise.


Why not discuss it here. Musician's helping musicians and all that. At least point me to the current rules? As far as I know in order to do a remote recording using union musicians one would still need to sign a union contract for film that would tie them to secondary market payments. Is that not correct?

Also, they were working on a buyout plan for union players for indie companies. Did that materialize?


----------



## José Herring (Jul 2, 2020)

JJP said:


> @josejherring There are a number of things in you post that are inaccurate, like the ban on remote recording. In fact until recently, the AFM discounted rates for remote recording because of Covid. However, this isn't the place to discuss the many complicated issues you raise.



On second thought I've just decided to start a dialog with the union directly. I learned my lesson 5 years ago when I first started discussing this subject that the only answer I usually get is, "it's complicated" and I'm "misinformed" so I just need to get it straight in black and white for myself to read.


----------



## JJP (Jul 2, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Why not discuss it here. Musician's helping musicians and all that. At least point me to the current rules?



We're derailing the OP's thread, that's all. <https://www.afm.org/our-musicians/recording-digital-media/>


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 2, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Exactly.
> 
> If you are working with a tiny, local business things aren't so competitive, whether you're a driver, delivering lunch, or a supplier. By contrast, if you want to work for UPS or any Fortune 500 company, you have to expect a ruthless environment ("merciless" might be another word, or "unforgiving") and be willing to prove yourself over and over, with every job.
> 
> ...



Yes, all of that makes sense but it is often used as an excuse in my opinion. 

There is an aura of insane hard work around the film industry in all parts of the world that is in my opinion misguided. There are people in many other fields who often go through extreme pressure and work countless hours but they need not be abusive. 

How about launching a rocket that costs billions into space? 

The industry is abusive. That is a fact that can no longer be denied. I am sorry but we know tons of people who work in the corporate world - they don't usually come in on weekends regularly. There is a reasonable way to work. 

All studies show that this way of working is bad and actually stifles creativity and leads to extreme lifestyles that ultimately destroy the person in the long run. We now know that working effectively and in a cool environment is better. 

I don't understand why the film industry all over the world keeps going on with the same narrative and feels threatened whenever such a conversation is started. People also start comparing to other jobs. That is not fair, nor in many cases actually true. 

I am not saying that you are saying these things, this is not directed at you but just speaking generally. I have worked on over 50 feature films and I can tell you that every film needed extreme working situations (doing it right now, recording on the 11th!). 

That is a pattern, not an exception. All of this is built into the mindset. To add insult to injury, sucessful people in film always say - well, if you can't handle it, this is not for you. While that is true to an extent, it is completely exaggerated by people who would feel sad to admit feeling bad after spending 20 years in the business. 

This is one of the reasons I have been doing much less film work. 

Of course, there are nice people too and some productions are a bit better, but it is rare and I am working in Mumbai. I have nothing to do with Hollywood. All my film work is in India. I do speak to friends all over the world and it is nearly always the same experience. 

I am not just criticizing the film industry, all I am saying is that a conversation needs to be had and working conditions have to improve (mentally).


----------



## JohnG (Jul 2, 2020)

Tanuj Tiku said:


> I am sorry but we know tons of people who work in the corporate world - they don't usually come in on weekends regularly.



Tanuj, sadly, in the USA, lots and lots of people in corporations, hospitals and law firms work on the weekends. It is common. Americans typically are allowed two weeks' holiday a year and very often they don't even take them. It is a workaholic culture.

Many people retire at 65 with months, sometimes years, of vacation they never took. It comes as a money bonus at the end.

It's less common in Continental Europe and England, but there are plenty there too. I don't know about most of Asia, but in Japan it has been traditional for workers to stay out late with bosses after work -- often until 11 o'clock at night. I have seen a little of that.

I don't think there is any chance working conditions will improve. I routinely work 18-20 hours a day when I have a project.


----------



## mscp (Jul 2, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Tanuj, sadly, in the USA, lots and lots of people in corporations, hospitals and law firms work on the weekends. It is common. Americans typically are allowed two weeks' holiday a year and very often they don't even take them. It is a workaholic culture.
> 
> Many people retire at 65 with months, sometimes years, of vacation they never took. It comes as a money bonus at the end.
> 
> ...



Spot on.


----------



## Jay Panikkar (Jul 2, 2020)

Only in Hollywood and European entertainment have I seen directors/creators/producers publicly attack their own audience with all kinds of slurs, because the audience didn't like their products. Then the access media and the mainstream media are recruited to further attack the audience. They do it over and over again with little repercussions. All the while, these same entities—heavily subsidized by taxpayers—have the audacity to mount derogatory attacks on citizens of their own nations.

This is how you know a market has hit rock-bottom. No ethics, no accountability.

And then the 'small fries' in the industry emulate this behaviour, the people trying to get into the industry emulate this behaviour and the whole thing is circling down a drain.

Utterly ridiculous.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 2, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Tanuj, sadly, in the USA, lots and lots of people in corporations, hospitals and law firms work on the weekends. It is common. Americans typically are allowed two weeks' holiday a year and very often they don't even take them. It is a workaholic culture.
> 
> Many people retire at 65 with months, sometimes years, of vacation they never took. It comes as a money bonus at the end.
> 
> ...



John, yes I am aware that the US has one of the worst records in the world. Some of my friends who live there, have the same issues. 

I work long hours too! There are two important factors:

1. Working hard is OK and even necessary to achieve something but what is the working quality like? Of course, we all try to build a nice environment for ourselves. 

2. This way of working is not good and actually corporations and others can get more work done and make more profits (since that is what they care about) by changing the system. 

I think Europe is far better with these things, as you said. 

However, in my experience we have to work ungodly hours (often in a lot of stress) for not very good reasons. Film world does not have a life of quality for most people. Of course, there are some exceptions and even I regularly put my foot down on certain things now but of course, we still have to work hard hours. 

I am not against working hard or long hours. I work on my skills (just as most of us) in any case. 

But, the undue stress and handling irrational celebrity personalities of producers, directors, actors etc is very demanding and leads to nothing more than unusually demanding client servicing. This neither helps the film, nor the music. It is a world of it's own. 

I am just saying that we have to absolutely recognize that a lot of this stuff is not good and it is relatively widespread.


----------



## JohnG (Jul 2, 2020)

You may be right, @Tanuj Tiku . But it's a bit like wishing the weather were different. The hours are rough. I do have some great people I've been working with, so I can't complain about that!

Besides, I have the sense that you, like me, are not doing this solely for money. Money is important but much of the reason I work so hard is to try to get better, to learn new techniques and, hopefully, stumble into some new ideas. Sometimes it comes in a flash, but even then, it takes hours or even days to make it sound good enough to present.

Then, you have to orchestrate, hire the orchestra, negotiate rates for studios, mixing -- it's just a lot to do, as you know.

Back to it!


----------



## dzilizzi (Jul 2, 2020)

My brother is a doctor in the US. Med school and residency are extremely abusive. They don't even make minimum wage in residency because they are paid salary and have to work crazy hours. He once figured out he was making about $2 an hour at the time. They regularly worked 36 hour shifts. One day as he was coming off one of these shifts, he got hit by a car running a light. He was so tired and out of it he wasn't injured, similar to how a drunk person isn't injured in a car crash. 

It is not just the music industry.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 3, 2020)

Martin S said:


>



CH is so on the money in these videos!!


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 3, 2020)

Daryl said:


> Union rates are only ever minimums. Maybe $5K is what the job pays. You want more, you have to negotiate.
> 
> Look, I'm not standing up for the studios, but a union might or might not be the answer. Certainly there are many cases of unions actually losing work for their members.





Daryl said:


> Union rates are only ever minimums. Maybe $5K is what the job pays. You want more, you have to negotiate.
> 
> Look, I'm not standing up for the studios, but a union might or might not be the answer. Certainly there are many cases of unions actually losing work for their members.


In the 1950s when union membership in America was 28% the average CEO salary was 40 times more than the average worker salary. In 2020 with union membership at 7% the average CEO makes 350-400 times more than the average worker. Guess unions must be the problem after all as it’s their fault CEOs can’t oppress others even more 🤪


----------



## Daryl (Jul 3, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> In the 1950s when union membership in America was 28% the average CEO salary was 40 times more than the average worker salary. In 2020 with union membership at 7% the average CEO makes 350-400 times more than the average worker. Guess unions must be the problem after all as it’s their fault CEOs can’t oppress others even more 🤪


That's a simplistic view. CEO/worker salary ratios are a moral argument, not a financial one. The big difference has been the Global nature of business.

I'm not an expert on the US, but the UK MU made some really bad decisions, by not understanding the Global nature of business, from which they've never recovered. There are many other things wrong with the Union model, but perhaps here is not the place to discuss it.


----------



## toomanynotes (Jul 3, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I don't think there is any chance working conditions will improve. I routinely work 18-20 hours a day when I have a project.


Bernard Herrmann would get up at 3/4am early in the morning just to get his massive hollywood 'work' chunk done with a pencil and paper by 9am, the rest of the day he would read the newspaper and take the dog for a walk. I don't expect any less from a good composer.


----------



## toomanynotes (Jul 3, 2020)

A friend of mine was once propositioned in a lift by a dwarf. He greeted him and said there are 2 ways you can get to the top of this building.
1. Press the button up
2. Or share the bed with me.
He refused and failed.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 3, 2020)

Daryl said:


> That's a simplistic view. CEO/worker salary ratios are a moral argument, not a financial one. The big difference has been the Global nature of business.
> 
> I'm not an expert on the US, but the UK MU made some really bad decisions, by not understanding the Global nature of business, from which they've never recovered. There are many other things wrong with the Union model, but perhaps here is not the place to discuss it.


Realize that being in a union like SAG does not prevent you for negotiating for significantly more money than minimum rates, which is exactly what the A-list of actors do every day. That being said, if composers had a union it would have protected me throughout my entire career because I’ve had too many less than honorable people to deal with at major studios and lead producers of a project. The WGA makes a lot of money for their tv writers because of the strength of the union, without it and most tv writers would be working for peanuts 🥜 The same thing would happen to musicians in AFM, without their union they would get constantly screwed over. Actor’s Equity, IATSE and AFM do a phenomenal job protecting actors, crew and musicians on Broadway, without these unions these people would make nothing compared to what they get. There is no end to how many CEOs, studios and producers would take advantage of everyone they could without unions. Superstars don’t need unions as their success gives them all the leverage they need, but those trying to make it need protection.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 3, 2020)

Daryl said:


> the UK MU made some really bad decisions, by not understanding the Global nature of business, from which they've never recovered.


Yeah, no one wants to record in London any more.


----------



## Daryl (Jul 3, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Yeah, no one wants to record in London any more.


As the number of big orchestral studios has shrunk to only 2, there is obviously a lot of work going elsewhere(leaving aside the sample use issue). My point was that the MU lost a lot of work at the end of the 90s, and that work has never come back.


----------



## Dave Connor (Jul 3, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> The problem often was that everytime I was offered work I would reach out to other composers in the biz, entertainment attorneys, film/tv composer agents and managers and ask them how much I could possibly negotiate for and no one would say a word.


That seems odd. Most working musicians are willing to talk money with each other at the drop of a hat. And certainly advise what someone could get for a particular job. As people have said, it can be a wide range and often one is worried they can lose the gig if they ask for too much. Particularly someone without a lot of credits since if they ask for a higher number the producers might think that for the same money they can get someone with more experience.


----------



## JJP (Jul 3, 2020)

To address the flip side of the long hours issue, my wife and I have run music prep for a number of large productions. As many of you know, music preparation (engraving and printing sheet music) is usually the last element before a recording or performance and often the place where timetables get squeezed.

We recently coordinated music prep on the Oscars for three years in a row and then ran the entire music prep operation for two more. This is a production that takes well over a month to prepare for a single night of music, and the last Oscars we did in 2019 had over 6000 scores and parts. (That's full, multi-page parts and scores, not a count of individual pages.)

We resolved that we would not ask anyone to work beyond 8 hours in a day without being paid overtime as is laid out in the union contract and state labor law. We also made a priority of being in good communication with the producers and music director to keep them aware of where we were with the budget, what needed to be done when, and warn them immediately if we were heading into overtime situations or foresaw other issues that could cause budget or logistical problems.

The result was that people worked overtime only when absolutely necessary, morale was high, people's work was of very high quality. People above us were able to push back against difficult situations because they could say, "Our people tell us this needs to be done now or we'll go over budget." We were able to get everything done on time on budget every time.

Our people worked very hard, and they did have to put in some long hours in the final few days; but they were happy to do it because they felt they were not being exploited. We were also able to consistently do the work with about half the number people other teams usually have. That's because we avoided a lot of the irrational last-minute requests that arise when everyone is afraid to say "No".

We did have to do the uncomfortable thing of pushing back at times by saying, "We can do that, but it will require more people and time, and I can't make any guarantee of the cost. The cost will be whatever it takes to get it done, and you'll have to pay it." But the upside was that the production respected that we were being completely transparent about how their money was being used. They also knew that we were watching out to make sure they didn't do something that violated their union agreement and cause more headaches or trigger excessive payments or penalties. Anytime that happened the production had been informed, and it was their decision to accept the cost. That also meant we could get the necessary resources in those situations to not have to kill our team.

My point is that hard work on very complicated musical projects can be done in a reasonable way that doesn't abuse or exploit people. The idea that there is no solution to this problem is incorrect and stems largely from an unwillingness to tackle the dirty job of figuring things out. It's a hard, uncomfortable discussion. To be honest, many producers and some within our own musical camp don't want the discussion to happen because it may remove some of their ability to get whatever they want without having to pay the proper cost. It means they will have to plan and they will have to stand up to the bullies or people who refuse to consider others in their workflow. That unwillingness is what allows the problems to continue.


Edit: I should add that someone who handled the budget from the production came up to me during the Oscars pre-records and quietly said, "It's always smooth as butter. I don't know how you folks do it, but I know that I never have to worry." That was a proud moment for me because I knew our work was making someone else's life better by removing their worries.


----------



## JohnG (Jul 3, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Yeah, no one wants to record in London any more.



really? I love recording in London. My favourite


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 3, 2020)

JohnG said:


> really? I love recording in London. My favourite


I was being a little sarcastic.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 3, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> That seems odd. Most working musicians are willing to talk money with each other at the drop of a hat. And certainly advise what someone could get for a particular job. As people have said, it can be a wide range and often one is worried they can lose the gig if they ask for too much. Particularly someone without a lot of credits since if they ask for a higher number the producers might think that for the same money they can get someone with more experience.


I could never get another composer, agent or manager to say a word.


----------



## Dave Connor (Jul 3, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I could never get another composer, agent or manager to say a word.


That will change. You will keep meeting people and find out who’s really on your side. Some people are scared to death to get involved in any way - to play it safe with their own career. It’s a shame but insecurity is all too common among the ambitious. In the future you could ask here. There’s a fair number of informed pros who would be happy to advise.


----------



## classified_the_x (Jul 3, 2020)

In a way, the music business has some glamour, much more than say, working for Dundler Miffin co. or most regular day jobs. Even if you're not Justin Bieber, Kanye or one of the major film composers, there's an aura in it. Remember everyone wants to be a DJ? It slowly became everyone wants to be a producer or composer, and since no one buys music, there are few opportunities and more ppl willing to do the jobs.

You may all be tired from the tons of work you get, but isn't that better than getting no work at all? Think how many good professional soccer players or young prospects never made it. Or how many beautiful to die for girls never made into the model business. Life is not easy or fair, and is ruled by market demand, participants and opportunities.

But, yea, maybe somewhere in Europe or Japan, professional musicians have better work conditions, and it's fair to fight for that. Just saying that it's a competitive glamour profession and you should be glad that you made into it.


----------



## JJP (Jul 3, 2020)

classified_the_x said:


> Just saying that it's a competitive glamour profession and you should be glad that you made into it.



That is never an excuse for tolerating abuse or exploitation. I am where I am in this business because I am one of the best in the world at my job, and I help productions make millions of dollars. I treat others as professionals and I expect to be treated that way as well.

It is a privilege to do what we do, but that does not mean that anyone must sacrifice their dignity, health, or well being for someone else's profit.


----------



## classified_the_x (Jul 3, 2020)

JJP said:


> That is never an excuse for tolerating abuse or exploitation. I am where I am in this business because I am one of the best in the world at my job, and I help productions make millions of dollars. I treat others as professionals and I expect to be treated that way as well.
> 
> It is a privilege to do what we do, but that does not mean that anyone must sacrifice their dignity, health, or well being for someone else's profit.



I was more focused on the long hours than on the abuse, but the OP was talking more about abusive behaviour indeed. Weinstein was jailed, Twitter banned some "divisive" words today so hopefully we'll see progress in the human side of the music/film business.


----------



## Dave Connor (Jul 3, 2020)

As far as Hans Zimmer endorsing or participating in toxic behavior, that would be the kind of thing to filter down in the Hollywood community. For example, it was quite common to hear what a nasty piece of work Harvey Weinstein was to deal with. I’ve never heard a single Zimmer story where it was suggested he was at all uncivil toward people. When you will hire people you meet working at a car wash, you are hardly taking a superior attitude toward anyone.

Hans may have got pissed off at some people’s reaction to the Spitfire Contest but I wouldn’t form a psychological profile based on that anymore than I would on any of us here that are bothered by this or that on the forum.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 3, 2020)

jneebz said:


> Sweet.


You can never go wrong quoting Yogi !!


----------



## Karl Feuerstake (Jul 7, 2020)

construer said:


> Short background:
> 
> I started an intense development of my music skills back in 1996. I was living, eating, dreaming music. Around 10 years later I got my first TV composing jobs (for short forms, like weather and horoscope shows, ads...). That led to a bigger gig for the top organization in my country, for which media production company I worked for got reward. That led to another gig for which I got the greatest compliment in my life by industry professional (not in person though): that my music is like Jean Michel Jarre's, only better.
> 
> ...



If your goal is to take away the prize, you will find the odds of that sorely disappointing.

Everything is about strategy, and this was, after all, a competition in name. Strategy at its core is about achieving a goal through refinement. Having a very clear goal will get you started.

Consequentially I would try to take away everything positive that I could, regardless of the outcome. Losing the prize doesn't mean you can't be a winner.

Edit: I do not think this issue has to do with the behaviour of a few high-profile individuals, as I've seen how many of the people who you are vaguely referring to have acted over many years, and seen how they have acted afterwards as well.

If you are trying to study behavioural patterns, then a single incident born out of frustration is bad data. This frustration is tied to the reaction of some of the participants of the contest, which was frankly unacceptable - to insult and even threaten the winners; which I believe is related to these participants' goals as I mentioned above.


----------



## Rtomproductions (Jul 7, 2020)

Phew! Looks like I've had a relatively sheltered career thus far. I've yet to be in an "abusive" relationship with anyone higher up on the totem pole (although I have fired a client before, but I never allowed the relationship to become abusive). I've had a few projects that had me working 12 hour days for a few weeks, but I knew what I was getting into and the pay was commensurate to the time.

Nothing I would ever call "abusive."


----------

