# B Herrmann, Twilight Zone "Little Girl Lost"



## JohnG (Aug 12, 2018)

Hi all,

I knew that the old series, "The Twilight Zone" features early work by acting luminaries, but I actually had never seen Bernard Herrmann's name on it before.

While struggling to get a $%#& drive renamed properly I turned it on in the background but turned my head because I liked the harp and woodwinds and wondered who had done it -- lo and behold -- the might BH himself.

Episode is "Little Girl Lost" and on Netflix, obviously.

John


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Aug 12, 2018)

He scored a lot of episodes actually, even the main title


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## Dr.Quest (Aug 12, 2018)

https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/the-twilight-zone-the-complete-scores-of-bernard-herrmann/60349159


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 12, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I knew that the old series, "The Twilight Zone" features early work by acting luminaries, but I actually had never seen Bernard Herrmann's name on it before.
> 
> ...



It's one of my favorite compositions by anybody. Bernard had a way of opening doors to what could be described as fantastical places...sometimes eerie, sparkly, vicious, sardonic.

There are a couple of cool breakdown articles of that particular piece, including his originally handwritten score (I think that last is on youtube in fact), available on the web.

One of the things I love best about Bernard (especially during his time with TZ and AHH) was how he wrote for the low woodwinds. He had such a distinctive voice...irreplaceable.


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## dcoscina (Aug 13, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> It's one of my favorite compositions by anybody. Bernard had a way of opening doors to what could be described as fantastical places...sometimes eerie, sparkly, vicious, sardonic.
> 
> There are a couple of cool breakdown articles of that particular piece, including his originally handwritten score (I think that last is on youtube in fact), available on the web.
> 
> One of the things I love best about Bernard (especially during his time with TZ and AHH) was how he wrote for the low woodwinds. He had such a distinctive voice...irreplaceable.


I personally think of Herrmann as the greatest film composer of all time. He carved out a new music language and style, his music perfectly suited the films in a way that his contemporaries didn't (as Raksin said in a bio, most film composers of the time were trying to write melodic tunes for their scores while Benny took a different route). 

I also firmly believe Herrmann should occupy the same mantle of importance as Ives, Ruggles, Copland, Barber, etc).


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## Rob (Aug 13, 2018)




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## Mike Fox (Aug 13, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I knew that the old series, "The Twilight Zone" features early work by acting luminaries, but I actually had never seen Bernard Herrmann's name on it before.
> 
> ...


Kind of a weird coincidence. I started watching this series on Netflix just the other night. I believe this particular episode inspired Speilberg's Poltergeist.

The Twilight Zone was so ahead of it's time, just like BH.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 14, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> I personally think of Herrmann as the greatest film composer of all time. He carved out a new music language and style, his music perfectly suited the films in a way that his contemporaries didn't (as Raksin said in a bio, most film composers of the time were trying to write melodic tunes for their scores while Benny took a different route).
> 
> I also firmly believe Herrmann should occupy the same mantle of importance as Ives, Ruggles, Copland, Barber, etc).[/QUOTE





Mike Fox said:


> Kind of a weird coincidence. I started watching this series on Netflix just the other night. I believe this particular episode inspired Speilberg's Poltergeist.
> 
> The Twilight Zone was so ahead of it's time, just like BH.



There are also some pretty killer TZ episodes scored by the man who is at least very close to Bernard's level of amazingness, Jerry Goldsmith. It was early in JG's career, so there isn't quite a Herrmann level of distinctiveness, however if you're anything in the know concerning Golden and Silver age movie scores you know it's hella worth checking into. Goldsmith was a film score monster from day one imo, just like Bernard and Korngold, Rozsa and Newman.

I do agree that BH (and I'll be bold and throw Goldsmith in there) are more than deserving in the line up of "greatest composers since Wagner". Just like the names @dcoscina mentioned...plus, let's please not forget R. Strauss, Mahler, Scriabin, Schoenberg, Bartok.

Remembering more than a little bit of the man's concert work (not to mention the to-this-day-dominating masterpiece that is Ben Hur) I'd like to throw Rozsa on that list as well. The man was incredible imo, kind of like the Mozart of the Golden age with all of his great melodic sense.


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## dcoscina (Aug 14, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> There are also some pretty killer TZ episodes scored by the man who is at least very close to Bernard's level of amazingness, Jerry Goldsmith. It was early in JG's career, so there isn't quite a Herrmann level of distinctiveness, however if you're anything in the know concerning Golden and Silver age movie scores you know it's hella worth checking into. Goldsmith was a film score monster from day one imo, just like Bernard and Korngold, Rozsa and Newman.
> 
> I do agree that BH (and I'll be bold and throw Goldsmith in there) are more than deserving in the line up of "greatest composers since Wagner". Just like the names @dcoscina mentioned...plus, let's please not forget R. Strauss, Mahler, Scriabin, Schoenberg, Bartok.
> 
> Remembering more than a little bit of the man's concert work (not to mention the to-this-day-dominating masterpiece that is Ben Hur) I'd like to throw Rozsa on that list as well. The man was incredible imo, kind of like the Mozart of the Golden age with all of his great melodic sense.


I can't believe I forgot Mahler! Song of the Earth is my favourite piece of all time! Kindertotenlieder and Ruckert Lieder are close seconds.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 14, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> I can't believe I forgot Mahler! Song of the Earth is my favourite piece of all time! Kindertotenlieder and Ruckert Lieder are close seconds.



Great piece. Try kicking back with headphones and the 9th Symphony sometime...from what you've posted here I doubt you'd regret it. I would feel amiss not including Debussy and Stravinsky as two more terrific post-Wagner composers.

May I nominate again @Spitfire Team perhaps a* Gustav Mahler* and/or *Jerry Goldsmith* *Orchestral Toolkit*?

I doubt there'd be much hesitation in purchasing something like those, especially folks from here, most of whom already know how staggeringly great those composers were.

*Are.*


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## richardt4520 (Aug 14, 2018)

Oh and Bartok....I've listened to Stern's rendition of Violin Concerto #2 since I was about 15 years old. I still hear new things when I pay attention after 35 years. Just brilliant. I hear so much of Bartok's influence in soundtrack music


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 14, 2018)

richardt4520 said:


> Oh and Bartok....I've listened to Stern's rendition of Violin Concerto #2 since I was about 15 years old. I still hear new things when I pay attention after 35 years. Just brilliant. I hear so much of Bartok's influence in soundtrack music



Not to mention how cool his (and Penderecki's) music sounded in movies like the Shining...


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## re-peat (Aug 14, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> I personally think of Herrmann as the greatest film composer of all time.


A bit overrated, I always thought. Herrmann, I mean. But just a bit, I hasten to add, because he was obviously a monster of a composer. I have no difficulty acknowledging that. Even so, I never understood — using strictly musical arguments, that is — why Herrmann should be singled out as the master among masters. (At least four film composers come to mind which are, I feel, much more deserving of that epithet. And a dozen or so which are, in my view, easily as deserving.) 

If I had to make a guess, I’d say that the Herrmann-cult has as much to do with the ‘legend Herrmann’ — the principled, single-minded, uncompromising and ill-fitting enfant terrible of the industry (such a thing always gets applause, mostly from people with nowhere near a comparable amount of talent, courage, vision and commitment) — than with the actual music. Music which, in my opinion, is always good of course, often great, but only on a few occasions truly sublime. And part of a total legacy that also contains awfully long stretches of seriously boring, bland and formulaïc material (and is rarely as 'new and pioneering' as people like to say it is).

Not going to say much more on this subject because, many years ago, when a previous generation of the V.I. community populated this place, we already did visit this very topic, and it turned into a discussion of such feisty and passionate conflict — ah, good memories — that it is not too difficult to predict that, if we were to even attempt something similar today, we’d find ourselves in the Drama-area, possibly locked, long before the discussion has any chance of becoming interesting.

_


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## Mike Fox (Aug 14, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> There are also some pretty killer TZ episodes scored by the man who is at least very close to Bernard's level of amazingness, Jerry Goldsmith. It was early in JG's career, so there isn't quite a Herrmann level of distinctiveness, however if you're anything in the know concerning Golden and Silver age movie scores you know it's hella worth checking into. Goldsmith was a film score monster from day one imo, just like Bernard and Korngold, Rozsa and Newman.
> 
> I do agree that BH (and I'll be bold and throw Goldsmith in there) are more than deserving in the line up of "greatest composers since Wagner". Just like the names @dcoscina mentioned...plus, let's please not forget R. Strauss, Mahler, Scriabin, Schoenberg, Bartok.
> 
> Remembering more than a little bit of the man's concert work (not to mention the to-this-day-dominating masterpiece that is Ben Hur) I'd like to throw Rozsa on that list as well. The man was incredible imo, kind of like the Mozart of the Golden age with all of his great melodic sense.


Totally. Goldsmith was a beast!


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## Mike Fox (Aug 14, 2018)

re-peat said:


> A bit overrated, I always thought. Herrmann, I mean. But just a bit, I hasten to add, because he was obviously a monster of a composer. I have no difficulty acknowledging that. Even so, I never understood — using strictly musical arguments, that is — why Herrmann should be singled out as the master among masters. (At least four film composers come to mind which are, I feel, much more deserving of that epithet. And a dozen or so which are, in my view, easily as deserving.)
> 
> If I had to make a guess, I’d say that the Herrmann-cult has as much to do with the ‘legend Herrmann’ — the principled, single-minded, uncompromising and ill-fitting enfant terrible of the industry (such a thing always gets applause, mostly from people with nowhere near a comparable amount of talent, courage, vision and commitment) — than with the actual music. Music which, in my opinion, is always good of course, often great, but only on a few occasions truly sublime. And part of a total legacy that also contains awfully long stretches of seriously boring, bland and formulaïc material (and is rarely as 'new and pioneering' as people like to say it is).
> 
> ...


Not sure why people would crap their pants over your opinion. Music is pretty subjective to begin with.

I will say that I have a huge amount of respect for BH. Not only because of his works, but also because he greatly inspired my favorite composer.


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## re-peat (Aug 14, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Music is pretty subjective to begin with.


The appreciation of it, you mean? No, it isn’t. But that’s another topic a proper discussion of which is doomed to unfold in the Drama-area, especially if people like you participate.

_


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## Mike Fox (Aug 14, 2018)

re-peat said:


> The appreciation of it, you mean? No, it isn’t. But that’s another topic a proper discussion of which is doomed to unfold in the Drama-area, especially if people like you participate.
> 
> _


I was attempting to make the point that your personal opinion about music shouldn't upset people.

People like me? Not really sure if your stab at me was necessary. It seemed pretty random and out of place. Are you holding a grudge against me for something?


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## dcoscina (Aug 14, 2018)

re-peat said:


> A bit overrated, I always thought. Herrmann, I mean. But just a bit, I hasten to add, because he was obviously a monster of a composer. I have no difficulty acknowledging that. Even so, I never understood — using strictly musical arguments, that is — why Herrmann should be singled out as the master among masters. (At least four film composers come to mind which are, I feel, much more deserving of that epithet. And a dozen or so which are, in my view, easily as deserving.)
> 
> If I had to make a guess, I’d say that the Herrmann-cult has as much to do with the ‘legend Herrmann’ — the principled, single-minded, uncompromising and ill-fitting enfant terrible of the industry (such a thing always gets applause, mostly from people with nowhere near a comparable amount of talent, courage, vision and commitment) — than with the actual music. Music which, in my opinion, is always good of course, often great, but only on a few occasions truly sublime. And part of a total legacy that also contains awfully long stretches of seriously boring, bland and formulaïc material (and is rarely as 'new and pioneering' as people like to say it is).
> 
> ...


I always enjoy other perspectives. I should clarify that John Williams is a personal favourite of any film composer followed closely by Jerry Goldsmith. I also admire Alex North, Korngold, Rosza, Tiomkin, Steiner, and the list goes on and on. The only reason I articulated that Herrmann is probably the greatest "film" composer is that unlike so many others who merely took from late 19th century music conventions (or 20th century) and modified them to film, Herrmann created his own music-film language, one that is immediately identifiable. Was Herrmann capable of the same stylistic breadth as say Goldsmith? Probably not. Could Herrmann compose something like Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky? Also debatable. But he did possess a drive to a higher aesthetic and his philosophy would help elevate him to the stature that I feel is well deserved.


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## re-peat (Aug 14, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Are you holding a grudge against me for something?


A grudge? Not at all, Mike. Sorry if I gave that impression. I was merely saying — or failing to say, apparently — that discussing our appreciation of music, if discussed honestly, is bound to quickly get emotional and troubled — the way it always has in the past — because the "it's all subjective anyway"-argument is where, in my view, too many people believe the discussion should not only start but also finish, and I (or someone else who sees the things the way I see them) can only counter that with insufferably pretentious and elitist arguments. So, best not to.

Again, my apologies.

_


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 14, 2018)

Hey, let's not argue, this is getting good!​


dcoscina said:


> I always enjoy other perspectives. I should clarify that John Williams is a personal favourite of any film composer followed closely by Jerry Goldsmith. I also admire Alex North, Korngold, Rosza, Tiomkin, Steiner, and the list goes on and on. The only reason I articulated that Herrmann is probably the greatest "film" composer is that unlike so many others who merely took from late 19th century music conventions (or 20th century) and modified them to film, Herrmann created his own music-film language, one that is immediately identifiable. Was Herrmann capable of the same stylistic breadth as say Goldsmith? Probably not. Could Herrmann compose something like Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky? Also debatable. But he did possess a drive to a higher aesthetic and his philosophy would help elevate him to the stature that I feel is well deserved.



Some would argue Herrmann's Psycho will never go away (and I'd agree, plus probably Fahrenheit and/or maybe Ghost and Mrs. Muir). A valid criticism of BH is aimed toward how much he recycled his past, however he actually wasn't even as repetitive as, say, Mozart and Haydn. Not that I think BH is their (freakily amazing) level; however I think what dcoscina might have meant (forgive me if I'm wrong) was that the best film composers (like BH, Goldsmith, Korngold, etc) made more than a little music that will stand the test of time.

It bears mentioning that Herrmann's Symphony is a rewarding one to listen to. It requires a little willed immersion...like great music often does.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 14, 2018)

I like Williams, but far prefer Goldsmith. The latter took far more chances, and didn't rely as much on ornament. But that's my opinion.


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## dcoscina (Aug 14, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I like Williams, but far prefer Goldsmith. The latter took far more chances, and didn't rely as much on ornament. But that's my opinion.


I love Jerry's working from the late '60s through to the early '80s. A few standouts in the '90s like Total Recall, The Edge, Mulan but as he entered his twilight composing years, he became more tonal and the stuff I think he really excelled at was modernist scoring like Planet of the Apes (one of the greatest scores EVER), Freud, Alien, things like that. He could write great themes as well but he seemed very comfortable in the realm of atonal music compared to say Williams who I feel has always been at odds with that arena (I will take Goldsmith's Concerto for Orchestra any day over Williams' Flute Concerto).

From a technical standpoint, Williams is a genius. And he's not simply recycling Strauss or Prokofiev or whatever- he's married those influences with his jazz foundations and you can clearly hear this in his seminal 70s work in his voicings for the orchestral choirs. They aren't typical of pure classical procedures.

Anyhow, as far as Herrmann goes, my favourite of his is F451. It's a gorgeous work and rather sublime. His cue "The Road" evokes the same delicate pathos that Mahler's lieder do for me. I love Vertigo as well as Mysterious Island, The Man Who Knew Too Much, Torn Curtain (rejected score), and many more. Of course my claim about Herrmann being the greatest film composer is completely subjective. I listen to some Korngold and my jaw drops at the pure virtuosity in his style. I read that he scored films like they were operas and it's easy to hear this.

In retrospect, it's rather silly to make declarations about "the best". There have been so many pivotal figures in the development of film music that it's kinda nuts to single out one composer above all else. It was just my unabashed enthusiasm towards Benny's music. I'm also a fan of his Moby Dick cantata btw.

EDIT- I actually value re-peat's views because they are borne out of the highest regard for music technique and integrity. There's absolutely nothing wrong with valuing artistic aesthetic. So much of that seems lost today in favour of popularity or commerce.


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## Mike Fox (Aug 14, 2018)

re-peat said:


> A grudge? Not at all, Mike. Sorry if I gave that impression. I was merely saying — or failing to say, apparently — that discussing our appreciation of music, if discussed honestly, is bound to quickly get emotional and troubled — the way it always has in the past — because the "it's all subjective anyway"-argument is where, in my view, too many people believe the discussion should not only start but also finish, and I (or someone else who sees the things the way I see them) can only counter that with insufferably pretentious and elitist arguments. So, best not to.
> 
> Again, my apologies.
> 
> _


No worries.


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## CT (Aug 14, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> May I nominate again @Spitfire Team perhaps a* Gustav Mahler* and/or *Jerry Goldsmith* *Orchestral Toolkit*?



I would pay stupid amounts of money for either of those.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 14, 2018)

miket said:


> I would pay stupid amounts of money for either of those.



Hokay @Spitfire Team! I think it's clear we like your Orchestral Toolkit model, more please!


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## CT (Aug 14, 2018)

Maybe a John Adams Toolkit, while they're at it.


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## re-peat (Aug 14, 2018)

See, that is what I don’t get. If you guys claim to love Goldsmith so much, how can you not immediately understand that a _Goldsmith Toolkit_ — I get unwell even typing the words — is the very opposite of what Goldsmith is all about — individuality, creativity, determination, spine, courage, curiosity, all of it spiced with amazing force of musical adventure and expressed with flawless technical skill — and an insult to everything he (and every other great musician) stands for?

A Goldsmith Toolkit … Never heard of anything more ridiculous and sad in my life.

Anyway, back to Herrmann. *http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/20%20La%20R%E9demption%20de%20Fran%E7ois%20Villon_II.%20Pluie%20et%20vent.mp3 (This)* isn’t written by him. It’s Arthur Honegger. In 1951. Not implying anything, merely finding it quite interesting.

_


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## givemenoughrope (Aug 14, 2018)

JG kicking a$$ right here:


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## CT (Aug 14, 2018)

re-peat said:


> See, that is what I don’t get. If you guys claim to love Goldsmith so much, how can you not immediately understand that a _Goldsmith Toolkit_ — I get unwell even typing the words — is the very opposite of what Goldsmith is all about — individuality, creativity, determination, spine, courage, curiosity, all of it spiced with amazing force of musical adventure and expressed with flawless technical skill — and an insult to everything he (and every other great musician) stands for?
> 
> A Goldsmith Toolkit … Never heard of anything more ridiculous and sad in my life.
> 
> ...



Re-peat, I have found much value in your posts over the years, but I do think you sometimes take things a little too seriously.

I might also add, Jerry himself seemed to have no qualms about drawing from the Ravel/Stravinsky/Bartók/North Toolkit when the moment was right.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 14, 2018)

re-peat said:


> See, that is what I don’t get. If you guys claim to love Goldsmith so much, how can you not immediately understand that a _Goldsmith Toolkit_ — I get unwell even typing the words — is the very opposite of what Goldsmith is all about — individuality, creativity, determination, spine, courage, curiosity, all of it spiced with amazing force of musical adventure and expressed with flawless technical skill — and an insult to everything he (and every other great musician) stands for?
> 
> A Goldsmith Toolkit … Never heard of anything more ridiculous and sad in my life.
> 
> ...



Just curious...why do you even care? You've made it clear you're not a fan of Herrmann, and obviously know everything there is to know about film music.

How about you just start your own thread about something you _*are*_ interested in? Because otherwise this conversation was pretty interesting imo, and you're obviously far too knowledgeable to put up with us musical morons. In fact, shouldn't you have your own forum?

I find it ridiculous you'd put the time in to write several posts in a topic you are finding ridiculous. Smells a little troll-y, like you just want to argue while no one else does.

Anyhoo, thanks to the folks whom did have an interest in talking about this topic! Maybe repeat really will start a forum and let us have friendly fun next time on the topic of music. Just not on his forum.


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## JohnG (Aug 14, 2018)

At the risk of seeming to try to mediate, I don't think @re-peat finds the _thread_ "ridiculous," @Parsifal666 . I thought he was responding to David's singling Herrmann out as the greatest film composer of all time and he doesn't agree.

I like Herrmann fine but honestly some of the scores people swoon over, like Vertigo, make me chuckle, rather than gasp. I do like "Psycho" though, not so much the shower scene (though that still rocks) but the fact that he helps build tension for what -- an hour or 45 minutes or whatever _before_ we get to the hotel. And a good bit of that acreage features -- not much, visually. A fair amount of driving around.

Really I like Alban Berg a lot better.

There are some pretty good composers who've tried a hand at film music, or been quoted in it, Herrmann being one of many. At one extreme, I was surprised (though I suppose I shouldn't have been) how Beethoven's pieces as used in "Immortal Beloved" worked within a movie.


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## dcoscina (Aug 14, 2018)

JohnG said:


> At the risk of seeming to try to mediate, I don't think @re-peat finds the _thread_ "ridiculous," @Parsifal666 . I thought he was responding to David's singling Herrmann out as the greatest film composer of all time and he doesn't agree.
> 
> I like Herrmann fine but honestly some of the scores people swoon over, like Vertigo, make me chuckle, rather than gasp. Like "Psycho" though, not so much the shower scene (though that still rocks) but the fact that he helps build tension for what -- an hour or 45 minutes or whatever _before_ we get to the hotel. And a good bit of that acreage features -- not much, visually. A fair amount of driving around.
> 
> ...


Just a point of clarification since my initial post seemed to be the catalyst the began all this- I never claimed BH was the greatest composer of all time but the great FILM composer of all time. And even than, I recanted that as it's silly to single out one person when so many have contributed to its rich history. 

I couldn't single out 1 composer who is the greatest of all time. This will sound like sacrilege but Beethoven bores me, and so does Mozart. After years of studying their work in university, their music just doesn't do it for me. I'm more moved by Ravel, Mahler, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, Bartok, Ives, Barber, Prokofiev, Debussy, Berg. Maybe its my childhood being exposed to and playing jazz but my ears prick up when I hear harmonically interesting music. And Herrmann also falls into that as he was much more of a vertical composer than horizontal. Anyhow, apologies for derailing this thread. I didn't mean it to ignite like this.... :(


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## dcoscina (Aug 14, 2018)

re-peat said:


> See, that is what I don’t get. If you guys claim to love Goldsmith so much, how can you not immediately understand that a _Goldsmith Toolkit_ — I get unwell even typing the words — is the very opposite of what Goldsmith is all about — individuality, creativity, determination, spine, courage, curiosity, all of it spiced with amazing force of musical adventure and expressed with flawless technical skill — and an insult to everything he (and every other great musician) stands for?
> 
> A Goldsmith Toolkit … Never heard of anything more ridiculous and sad in my life.
> 
> ...


Funny enough I composed a short work using Berlin Orchestra Inspire 2 in the idiom of Herrmann, then I tried on the BH Toolkit and I prefer the BOI 2 version better! Ha! Just goes to show that it's not the tools but the imagination I guess.


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## Iskra (Aug 14, 2018)

JohnG said:


> At the risk of seeming to try to mediate


Please do mediate. 
A good carnival of opinions in a friendly manner over the thing we love most is ALWAYS interesting to read, hopefully we're grown up enough to keep this nice thread far away from drama.
I also enjoyed re-peat's post over here at VIC, and I almost fully agree with him on that appreciation of music is not subjective, although that's a point of view not much in vogue. Let's just say we can all have different opinions, but also able to listen to others' so we can -maybe- think twice about something we have a strong view on, thanks to a different point of view, explanation, technicalities (is that even a word in English?) and so on and so forth.
Surely a nice exchange can happen without people getting mad every 4 or 5 posts.  
I personally do enjoy this threads very much, even with controversies, given we all behave as gentleman to navigate them.


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## dcoscina (Aug 14, 2018)

I don't mind opposing view points. It keeps things interesting. I too like re-peat and his posts.


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## Iskra (Aug 14, 2018)

re-peat said:


> why Herrmann should be singled out as the master among masters. (At least four film composers come to mind which are, I feel, much more deserving of that epithet. And a dozen or so which are, in my view, easily as deserving.)


By the way @re-peat, I would love to check those film composers you mention, please. Not being ironic or something, I really would like to read your list.


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## Mike Fox (Aug 14, 2018)

Iskra said:


> Please do mediate.
> A good carnival of opinions in a friendly manner over the thing we love most is ALWAYS interesting to read, hopefully we're grown up enough to keep this nice thread far away from drama.
> I also enjoyed re-peat's post over here at VIC, and I almost fully agree with him on that appreciation of music is not subjective, although that's a point of view not much in vogue. Let's just say we can all have different opinions, but also able to listen to others' so we can -maybe- think twice about something we have a strong view on, thanks to a different point of view, explanation, technicalities (is that even a word in English?) and so on and so forth.
> Surely a nice exchange can happen without people getting mad every 4 or 5 posts.
> I personally do enjoy this threads very much, even with controversies, given we all behave as gentleman to navigate them.


Can you please define "appreciation of music", and how it is not subjective?

I wanted to discuss this with repeat, but I respected his wishes to withdraw.


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## re-peat (Aug 15, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Can you please define "appreciation of music", and how it is not subjective?



Taste (not to be confused with appreciation) is subjective, yes, but recognizing that human imagination/expression/creativity can, when we're in the presence of an exceptional talent, reach a level far above the limited demarcation abilities of our personal preferences, and having the faculty to recognize it when it does, has nothing subjective about it, in my view.

People who insist that evaluation is subjective, confuse, I believe, subjectivity with the inability to recognize that great art eludes the narrowmindedness of subjective evaluation and that it exists, _to a subjectively unknown degree_, well outside of it.

The trouble is, and this is what caused such fracas the previous time I brought it up: I’m of the opinion that one needs to be blessed with antennae receptive enough to understand this, as well as be humble enough to be able to subtract one’s subjective perception, as much as possible, from any encounter with art that 'happens', to whatever extent, beyond one’s scope. And not everyone is blessed or humble enough in that way. And that makes the whole thing immediately rather elitist. I know. But that is how it is, I honestly believe.

Also: if subjectivity ('taste') is all that the scaffolding of one’s musical appreciation is made of, the _effective_ value of such appreciation is going to be inevitably restricted to affirming that subjectivity. Which, granted, can be a perfectly enjoyable and even profound experience, but it comes at the expense of preventing a deepening of one’s immersion in the music under consideration, as well as gravely impeding any openness, honesty and curiosity towards other, less familiar music.

- - -

*Iskra*, effortlessly preceding Herrmann on my list of great film composers are *Nino Rota, Jerry Goldsmith, Franz Waxman, pre-'95 John Williams* and, last but certainly not least, the indescribable musical phenomenon that is *Alberto Iglesias*. Can't decide on how these five should be ordered. And just to be clear: we’re talking _‘preceding by a huge margin’_ here.

By a more narrow one, but still comfortably in front, come people like Thomas Newman, E.W. Korngold, Jerry Fielding, Bruce Broughton and Ennio Morricone. And while I’m not sure if I rate the following bunch significantly higher than Herrmann, they certainly get a lot more airplay at my place: Michael Small, Jon Brion, Philippe Sarde, John Barry, early Elfman and David Shire (that last one based on one score only, “Return To Oz”, to give you an idea of how good I think that is).

(My thus far great but sometimes wavering enthusiasm for James Newton Howard has also taken huge leaps skywards with the release of “Red Sparrow”, which hit me, when I first heard it, like very few scores of recent years have. Its ‘Ouverture’ alone, in my opinion, entitles Howard to several lifetimes of our gratitude and respect.)

And only then do we slowly begin to see, on my list anyway, the flickering whites of Herrmann’s eyes.
(To be completely honest: the only music of Herrmann which I love unreservedly and passionately are a handful of cues from “Citizen Kane” — true musical genius at work there, I find — and a few bits from “The Snows of Kilimanjaro” and "The Devil and Daniel Webster". I think I do recognize and certainly appreciate the many fine qualities in much of his other music, but none of it baffles me, or even speaks to me, quite the way “Kane” does. And like I said before: the desolate, barely moving, repetitive barrenness of many a Herrmann musical landscape is also largely wasted on me.)

_


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## Iskra (Aug 15, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Can you please define "appreciation of music", and how it is not subjective?


There are many threads from the past years where re-peat, dcoscina and John participated in - among others- that discusses this greatly. Just search for them, as I can't possibly give better arguments as those put forward in those threads by these guys.
If I may add a small thing, I always have this kind of conversations regarding music with all my 'magels' - aka non musicians- friends, and they all turn to the same principle many guys in this forum use to hang on to: that taste and personal subjective preference is everything, and thus there's no such thing as 'good' or 'bad' art. "I like it and that's all", as a way to end any discussion sometimes. That's fine, but is simply not true, and in my humble opinion is just a reflection of our time, where individual 'likes' and 'dislikes' turned into the precise measure of things.

I might have a specific preference or musical taste because of my memories, personal history, training, or whatever, and I enjoy listening to modern jazz, or salsa, or classical. In every case I feel more compelled to the sorts of well crafted music, at least. I think we can all agree that music have a craft factor (in harmony, melody, rhythm or whatever), that make it more polished and enjoyable for us musicians. That craft factor is probably less important, if at all, for non musicians.
But besides the sentimentality (note I don't use the word emotional), personal history, craft, and other things that appeared in this thread and others, there's something else that constitutes a true work of art in music, and the other fine arts too. It goes beyond the 'I like it'. I don't really know if it's a sum of it's parts, but gives that undefinable aesthetic joy, the awe that re-peat mentioned, that you don't find in a just well crafted piece of music. You don't really have to _like_ that music, and I agree with Piet in that any sentimentality drawn by it just moves you away from the joy of the aesthetic pleasure (for lack of a better word). Maybe it's why Brahms used the word unassailable to define his goal in his own music, or what Bernstein called inevitability when talking about Beethoven. I can't be more specific in English, could explain myself better in my mother tongue (maybe not) 
The thing is that we sometimes, for the sake of the argument, paint this issue as two opposed poles, and in reality is probably a continuum, as re-peat said, where most of the people lives in the middle. I like a lot of film music and enjoy it deeply, but I must also recognize that it drawns most of its impact from sentimentality and craft borrowed from other composers. This makes it not less enjoyable, but I can't honestly put Bernard Herrmann or any other of the great film composers, no matter how much I _like_ their music, on the same step as Copland, Britten or Stravinsky. I know this opinion is also not in vogue.
It is difficult to try to find analogies, as any analogy will step into somebody's toe, but I remember one made by Nadia Bolanger (when asked if it's possible to rank composers). She replied it would be very difficult, and the interviewer insisted by saying that Beethoven and Max Bruch could not possibly be on the same level. Her response: that's like comparing the Himalayas with the Montmartre hill, they're uncomparable, but I almost never think of Max Bruch's music, and I think about Beethoven's music almost every day. Nadia Boulanger was probably the biggest musical expert and teacher of the XXth century, so I think her opinion really counts.
I would indulge myself to add to her comment, both the Himalayas and the Montmartre hill are nice walks, different but both enjoyable, but the sense of awe the Himalayas can provide you, Montmartre hill cannot. Also if I remember correctly, she even said that 5 or 6 works will guide you over the XXth century music: Pelleas and Melisande, Les Noces, Bluebeard's Castle, Wozzeck and Symphony of Psalms (add your own favorites to the list) whether you like them or not, those are milestones and should keep us busy probably for our lifetime. And no matter how much I like and enjoy BH or John Williams, the level of artistry on many works by Bartok, Stravinsky or Debussy compared to them, would be comparing Himalayas with Montmartre hill.
Sorry for the long read and the many mistakes that are probably there.

Edit: I found a video in YT with part of the interview to Mme. Boulanger (from 9,50" on, approx). Amazing listen, even if you do not agree with everything she say:


Edit 2: re-peat put it into better words than myself above this post. Plus, many thanks to reveal your list!


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## dcoscina (Aug 15, 2018)

Iskra said:


> There are many threads from the past years where re-peat, dcoscina and John participated in - among others- that discusses this greatly. Just search for them, as I can't possibly give better arguments as those put forward in those threads by these guys.
> If I may add a small thing, I always have this kind of conversations regarding music with all my 'magels' - aka non musicians- friends, and they all turn to the same principle many guys in this forum use to hang on to: that taste and personal subjective preference is everything, and thus there's no such thing as 'good' or 'bad' art. "I like it and that's all", as a way to end any discussion sometimes. That's fine, but is simply not true, and in my humble opinion is just a reflection of our time, where individual 'likes' and 'dislikes' turned into the precise measure of things.
> 
> I might have a specific preference or musical taste because of my memories, personal history, training, or whatever, and I enjoy listening to modern jazz, or salsa, or classical. In every case I feel more compelled to the sorts of well crafted music, at least. I think we can all agree that music have a craft factor (in harmony, melody, rhythm or whatever), that make it more polished and enjoyable for us musicians. That craft factor is probably less important, if at all, for non musicians.
> ...



Great post! But once again I really feel compelled to correct the misunderstanding of my original post. I never said that Herrmann was ever the greatest composer ever but felt he was the greatest FILM composer. Those are two very different worlds, mich like your mountain analogy. And even then, there are far too many pivotal film composers who have made their mark on that medium so I retract my initial statement.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 15, 2018)

I shouldn't have written the things I did, and I apologize, @re-peat


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## Iskra (Aug 15, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> But once again I really feel compelled to correct the misunderstanding of my original post. I never said that Herrmann was ever the greatest composer ever but felt he was the greatest FILM composer.


Yep, I understood you fine from the beginning, all the meandering of my post was not to refute any misunderstanding from your posts, just to elaborate a little on Mike's question.


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## Mike Fox (Aug 15, 2018)

re-peat said:


> Taste (not to be confused with appreciation) is subjective, yes, but recognizing that human imagination/expression/creativity can, when we're in the presence of an exceptional talent, reach a level far above the limited demarcation abilities of our personal preferences, and having the faculty to recognize it when it does, has nothing subjective about it, in my view.
> 
> People who insist that evaluation is subjective, confuse, I believe, subjectivity with the inability to recognize that great art eludes the narrowmindedness of subjective evaluation and that it exists, _to a subjectively unknown degree_, well outside of it.
> 
> ...



I'm glad you decided to share your perspective!

I'm not sure If I'm following you on your main point though. What's the difference between recognizing an excelled musician with great talent from a novice, and being "blessed" with a special antennae? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like all this antennae does is allow you to recognize talent independent of one's preferences and subjectivity. Or am I missing something?

@JohnG I hope you don't mind me pursing this topic in your thread. I'm more than happy to discuss this elsewhere.


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## Mike Fox (Aug 15, 2018)

Iskra said:


> There are many threads from the past years where re-peat, dcoscina and John participated in - among others- that discusses this greatly. Just search for them, as I can't possibly give better arguments as those put forward in those threads by these guys.
> If I may add a small thing, I always have this kind of conversations regarding music with all my 'magels' - aka non musicians- friends, and they all turn to the same principle many guys in this forum use to hang on to: that taste and personal subjective preference is everything, and thus there's no such thing as 'good' or 'bad' art. "I like it and that's all", as a way to end any discussion sometimes. That's fine, but is simply not true, and in my humble opinion is just a reflection of our time, where individual 'likes' and 'dislikes' turned into the precise measure of things.
> 
> I might have a specific preference or musical taste because of my memories, personal history, training, or whatever, and I enjoy listening to modern jazz, or salsa, or classical. In every case I feel more compelled to the sorts of well crafted music, at least. I think we can all agree that music have a craft factor (in harmony, melody, rhythm or whatever), that make it more polished and enjoyable for us musicians. That craft factor is probably less important, if at all, for non musicians.
> ...



Thanks for your explanation! I wouldn't have guessed English is your second language.


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## dcoscina (Aug 15, 2018)

To be honest, I rarely listen to film music any more unless it’s Silver or Golden Age era stuff. Modern scoring on a musical level doesn’t engage my ears the way it used to because of how the current system dictates it’s demands to composers (and lets be honest, some composers don’t have the same level of technical acumen that they used to thanks to the technology crutch). 

I’m more interested in discovering pieces by concert composers of the 20th century As I feel listening and studying their music helps me become a better composer. Composers like Zemlinsky and Franz Shreker, Rautavaara, Ifukube, Penderecki, more Shostakovich, Bartok and Ravel, Prokofiev, guys like that. Oh I discovered Lili Boulanger’s music a few years ago and think it’s fantastic- had she lived past her 24 years I don’t doubt she’d occupy the same mantle as Debussy and Ravel. What she did compose was astounding.


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## Mike Fox (Aug 15, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> To be honest, I rarely listen to film music any more unless it’s Silver or Golden Age era stuff. Modern scoring on a musical level doesn’t engage my ears the way it used to because of how the current system dictates it’s demands to composers (and lets be honest, some composers don’t have the same level of technical acumen that they used to thanks to the technology crutch).
> 
> I’m more interested in discovering pieces by concert composers of the 20th century As I feel listening and studying their music helps me become a better composer. Composers like Zemlinsky and Franz Shreker, Rautavaara, Ifukube, Penderecki, more Shostakovich, Bartok and Ravel, Prokofiev, guys like that. Oh I discovered Lili Boulanger’s music a few years ago and think it’s fantastic- had she lived past her 24 years I don’t doubt she’d occupy the same mantle as Debussy and Ravel. What she did compose was astounding.


Penderecki


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 15, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Penderecki



One of my favorites from the (more) modern era. I have liked what I've heard by Lutoslawski as well. I have to be perfectly fair and admit that I am a fan of Hans Zimmer scores like Interstellar, Man of Steel, and Dark Knight Rises, but I love the old stuff best too (heck, could you all have guessed? Most of those Golden and Silver age heavyweights were nuts about Wagner's music, R. Strauss too). To Kill a Mockingbird, Ben Hur, the Sea Hawk, Vertigo, Adventures of Robin Hood, Peyton Place...that's my music, there.

Besides the super heavies  \m/



dcoscina said:


> I’m more interested in discovering pieces by concert composers of the 20th century As I feel listening and studying their music helps me become a better composer. Composers like Zemlinsky and Franz Shreker, Rautavaara, Ifukube, Penderecki, more Shostakovich, Bartok and Ravel, Prokofiev, guys like that. Oh I discovered Lili Boulanger’s music a few years ago and think it’s fantastic- had she lived past her 24 years I don’t doubt she’d occupy the same mantle as Debussy and Ravel. What she did compose was astounding.​



You might like Sibelius. His 6th Symphony is more than worth listening to, at times very emotion-provoking composition and orchestration there. Really excellent composer imo. ​


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## dcoscina (Aug 15, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> One of my favorites from the (more) modern era. I have liked what I've heard by Lutoslawski as well. I have to be perfectly fair and admit that I am a fan of Hans Zimmer scores like Interstellar, Man of Steel, and Dark Knight Rises, but I love the old stuff best too (heck, could you all have guessed? Most of those Golden and Silver age heavyweights were nuts about Wagner's music, R. Strauss too). To Kill a Mockingbird, Ben Hur, the Sea Hawk, Vertigo, Adventures of Robin Hood, Peyton Place...that's my music, there.
> 
> Besides the super heavies  \m/
> 
> ...


I dig Sibelius and saw the TSO perform all of his symphonies a few years back. I love his Third and of course the last movement of his Fifth.

I should mentioned that all the composers I listed I am quite familiar with their work. And many more. I'm going through more of a renaissance as far as re-visiting their work in addition to listening to their lesser know works. While I won't profess to having the most diverse listening tastes, I know my 20th century repertoire pretty well as I studied with James Tenney who himself was a student of Varese. So I became very well versed on music of Ligeti, Crumb, Xenakis, Boulez, those dudes. It's probably why I adore Goldsmith's more modernist scores compared to the simpler material he put out later in his life.

I would cite Planet of the Apes as one of these most pivotal scores ever composed as it was a stark contrast to was popular in the late '60s. It is very much a collision of Berg and Varese to my ears (the flute tone rows and the percussion that recalls Octandre)


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 15, 2018)

douggibson said:


> I believe David Raskin called the music at the end of Vertigo "Our lady of perpetual sequences"
> 
> T



Well, Raskin was outrageously disrespected by Herrmann in front of a large Hollywood party. So he _would_ have a dim view, but to be honest there must be a large congregation at the church Raskin mentioned...including himself and about fifty percent (I'm being wildly conservative) of composers, period. Repetition is the hallmark of all but a portion of the avante garde. Even Bach and moreso Haydn and Mozart were at times frustratingly repetitive...then there are the minimalists of today whom endlessly sequence...aw heck, you probably know all this stuff. Nevermind.

I believe Vertigo pops up in the top ten of the overwhelming majority of critics' and scholars' lists. Moreso today than ever. However you value that.


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## JohnG (Aug 15, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> To be honest, I rarely listen to film music any more unless it’s Silver or Golden Age era stuff. Modern scoring on a musical level doesn’t engage my ears the way it used to because of how the current system dictates it’s demands to composers (and lets be honest, some composers don’t have the same level of technical acumen that they used to thanks to the technology crutch).



I understand your perspective, but check out James Newton Howard's "Red Sparrow."

The overture alone is pretty nice and displays some old school chops that, as you suggest, most film scores can't accommodate. Pity the movie itself was so poorly reviewed, as a lot of talent (acting, costume, music and all that) went into it. I like the score so much I'm tempted to watch it. Or at least the first half!


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## dcoscina (Aug 15, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I understand your perspective, but check out James Newton Howard's "Red Sparrow."
> 
> The overture alone is pretty nice and displays some old school chops that, as you suggest, most film scores can't accommodate. Pity the movie itself was so poorly reviewed, as a lot of talent (acting, costume, music and all that) went into it. I like the score so much I'm tempted to watch it. Or at least the first half!


Thanks John. I had a brief listen but will give it another go and dedicate more time towards it


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## JohnG (Aug 15, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> Thanks John. I had a brief listen but will give it another go and dedicate more time towards it



It's worth it. Listening to it a couple of times and will some more.


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## dcoscina (Aug 15, 2018)

JohnG said:


> It's worth it. Listening to it a couple of times and will some more.


I was a huge fan of Howard and love his Unbreakable, Wyatt Earp, Falling Down, Flatliners, Grand Canyon, Sign, The Village, and a few more that escape me st the moment


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## JohnG (Aug 15, 2018)

Well, if you've fallen off the JNH wagon a bit, "Red Sparrow" might get you back on, especially given your admiration for the Russians. 

I think he's amazing, even when hampered by less-than-stellar movies, he elevates the situation. Just to append to your list, "Dave, "King Kong," "Dinosaur" (animated but what a score), "Atlantis" (ditto), and "Peter Pan" all have amazing work in them. Disney uses cues from "Peter Pan" in a number of theme park locations.


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## madfloyd (Aug 15, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> To be honest, I rarely listen to film music any more unless it’s Silver or Golden Age era stuff. Modern scoring on a musical level doesn’t engage my ears the way it used to because of how the current system dictates it’s demands to composers (and lets be honest, some composers don’t have the same level of technical acumen that they used to thanks to the technology crutch).
> 
> I’m more interested in discovering pieces by concert composers of the 20th century As I feel listening and studying their music helps me become a better composer. Composers like Zemlinsky and Franz Shreker, Rautavaara, Ifukube, Penderecki, more Shostakovich, Bartok and Ravel, Prokofiev, guys like that. Oh I discovered Lili Boulanger’s music a few years ago and think it’s fantastic- had she lived past her 24 years I don’t doubt she’d occupy the same mantle as Debussy and Ravel. What she did compose was astounding.



I'm really enjoying this thread, especially your posts since I seem to have a similar taste in music as you but am unfamiliar with several composers you mention. I'm going to have to investigate many of these!


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## artomatic (Aug 15, 2018)

It truly amazes me how much music/work went in on composing tracks per episode of Twilight Zone, etc., by these early composers. And without having the tools that composers have now. 
Much respect to these geniuses!


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## JohnG (Aug 15, 2018)

artomatic said:


> It truly amazes me how much music/work went in on composing tracks per episode of Twilight Zone, etc., by these early composers. And without having the tools that composers have now.
> Much respect to these geniuses!



It's quite interesting, I agree. You'll notice that they often used harp and mallet instruments, for obvious reasons (range, not quite as domesticated as a piano). Typically, they substituted winds and brass for strings, no doubt for the cost; a single trumpet or clarinet can cover an entire part that you'd need multiple strings to cover adequately.

And to increase the colour palette they didn't use three-note chords that much either. Some cool dissonance in a lot of the scores. We used to parody them, I'm afraid, with Warner Brothers cartoons, but they were of course innovative.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 15, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Some cool dissonance in a lot of the scores. We used to parody them, I'm afraid, with Warner Brothers cartoons, but they were of course innovative.



I always thought the music to those toons was pretty darn cool, and loved that it didn't take itself seriously. I also thought they were well written.


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## JohnG (Aug 15, 2018)

whoops -- I meant that the Twilight Zone dissonance was innovative. We were really just parodying it with WB. Not that parody doesn't require some insight, but the TZ composers had done it all.

That's one reason it's so difficult to come up with something that is good and hasn't been done before for horror -- some of the best film composers have already done it over and over. Same with cop shows and action sequences.

It's one reason we have to rely now so much on "sounds and pulses." Because otherwise it sounds like Twilight Zone or Mannix.


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