# Woodwind Exposition to a Fugue (Version 3)



## Rodney Money (Nov 21, 2016)

Version 3 (Update: 11/28) I took out flute noise but added some room tone, bassoon noise, and a touch of reverb on the master to glue everything in a little.

Version 11/23: I took out the heavy concert reverb trying to emulate a more intimate setting of friends instead of a performance. Added new shorter articulations, and tried to work on some dynamics toward the end bringing the bassoon out a little more to the fore throughout. For those first seeing this piece, this is basically a short exercise with me trying to edit midi for the first time since I usually play in everything live. This little short woodwind piece could be an opening exposition to a fugue if I wanted to finish it one of these days. Thank y'all so much for listening, your comments, and your concerns.


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## jonathanprice (Nov 21, 2016)

Sounds very convincing!


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## Blakus (Nov 21, 2016)

Woodwinds are the bane of my existence at the moment. The interval (and dynamic) crossfades really distract in all of the current libraries! You're doing what you can with the tools you have though, and managed it well. It starts to sound a little more convincing to me towards the end when the arrangement becomes a more dense - which I guess is true for most mockups. Using orchestration to cover the deficiencies in the samples is one of our best weapons :D

You're a brave man posting a naked woodwind demo, thanks for sharing :D


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## markleake (Nov 22, 2016)

Rodney, it wouldn't convince a WW player for sure, but it's still pretty good. Some of the instruments work better than others. The libraries are showing their limitations. Thanks for giving us WW players some lovin' though.


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 22, 2016)

It's pretty good performance-wise, but the reverb is a bit busy/muddy and clutters it... The noise (flutes? bassoon? not sure) is kinda distracting, too.



markleake said:


> it wouldn't convince a WW player for sure



Good to know. :DDD


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## muk (Nov 22, 2016)

Very nice, love the fact that you are using counterpoint (eventhough it doesn't sound like a traditional fugue throughout). The sound is quite good to my ears, if not entirely convincing. It sounds bit stiff at times in my opinion, especially the bassoon. But nothing bad, just some minor niggles.



Blakus said:


> Woodwinds are the bane of my existence at the moment.



Interesting, Blakus. I always found the woodwinds easier to program than strings. VSL works well for me for woodwinds.


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## Rodney Money (Nov 22, 2016)

jonathanprice said:


> Sounds very convincing!


Thank you for listening, my friend, I enjoyed your Taco Bell commercial by the way!


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## Rodney Money (Nov 22, 2016)

Blakus said:


> Woodwinds are the bane of my existence at the moment. The interval (and dynamic) crossfades really distract in all of the current libraries! You're doing what you can with the tools you have though, and managed it well. It starts to sound a little more convincing to me towards the end when the arrangement becomes a more dense - which I guess is true for most mockups. Using orchestration to cover the deficiencies in the samples is one of our best weapons :D
> 
> You're a brave man posting a naked woodwind demo, thanks for sharing :D


Thank you Blake for also taking the time to both listen and comment. I don't know if I was brave or simply foolish, but I definitely was asking myself as I was posting this, "Are you sure you want to share this?" Lol. Thank you for sharing your "bane of my existence." I have those as well in the virtual instrument world.


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## Rodney Money (Nov 23, 2016)

muk said:


> Very nice, love the fact that you are using counterpoint (eventhough it doesn't sound like a traditional fugue throughout). The sound is quite good to my ears, if not entirely convincing. It sounds bit stiff at times in my opinion, especially the bassoon. But nothing bad, just some minor niggles.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, Blakus. I always found the woodwinds easier to program than strings. VSL works well for me for woodwinds.


Working on an update, my friend, especially taking your comments into effect.


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## muk (Nov 23, 2016)

Looking forward to the updated version.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 23, 2016)

Nice piece, Rodney.
Somtimes it feels a bit rushed, sometimes I miss this little subtle breaks when a note holds longer just to help that note to "mean something". Technically it is a solid start. Don´t your Windplayers need any breath? Sometimes I feel they would have problems doing exactly this kind of connected legato all the time without doing a short rest. You can also get more life into your track when you try to use a bit more of different articulations. Some of the lines could need that, ecspecially when you have faster lines and short notes where it sounds like you used just one patch for most of your lines. Another point is the overall dynamics which is more or less at one level (Static dynamic is not good even if even you aim to play at a certain loudness) you could try an inject more life bringing variation with featuring quiter and louder parts at least to give a little of the impression to have a kind "of live" feeling.


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## Rodney Money (Nov 23, 2016)

WhiteNoiz said:


> It's pretty good performance-wise, but the reverb is a bit busy/muddy and clutters it... The noise (flutes? bassoon? not sure) is kinda distracting, too.
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know. :DDD


I tried to incorporate all of your concerns, my friend. I believe the noise you were hearing might have been the Teldex room tone but not totally sure. Here's my update:


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## Rodney Money (Nov 23, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Nice piece, Rodney.
> Somtimes it feels a bit rushed, sometimes I miss this little subtle breaks when a note holds longer just to help that note to "mean something". Technically it is a solid start. Don´t your Windplayers need any breath? Sometimes I feel they would have problems doing exactly this kind of connected legato all the time without doing a short rest. You can also get more life into your track when you try to use a bit more of different articulations. Some of the lines could need that, ecspecially when you have faster lines and short notes where it sounds like you used just one patch for most of your lines. Another point is the overall dynamics which is more or less at one level (Static dynamic is not good even if even you aim to play at a certain loudness) you could try an inject more life bringing variation with featuring quiter and louder parts at least to give a little of the impression to have a kind "of live" feeling.


Thank you so much for your ears, comments, and suggestions, my friend. I normally play everything in live, but this was my first time trying to edit the midi after bouncing it in from Finale. I tried to incorporate your suggestions in the new update that I just posted. Thanks again.


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## Rodney Money (Nov 23, 2016)

muk said:


> Looking forward to the updated version.


Posted!


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## Rodney Money (Nov 23, 2016)

markleake said:


> Rodney, it wouldn't convince a WW player for sure, but it's still pretty good. Some of the instruments work better than others. The libraries are showing their limitations. Thanks for giving us WW players some lovin' though.


It doesn't even convince me either, lol, and for me brass libraries don't even convince me. Thank you for your ears, and I always love writing for woodwinds, so colorful!


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## Rodney Money (Nov 23, 2016)

muk said:


> Very nice, love the fact that you are using counterpoint (eventhough it doesn't sound like a traditional fugue throughout). The sound is quite good to my ears, if not entirely convincing. It sounds bit stiff at times in my opinion, especially the bassoon. But nothing bad, just some minor niggles.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, Blakus. I always found the woodwinds easier to program than strings. VSL works well for me for woodwinds.


Thank you for your response! Yes, I love using counterpoint being that it's a great way to make sure everyone gets a "fun part." Nothing I ever do is ever traditional including sticking to traditional forms or processes concerning fugues. The subject here starts in the alto voice, then the answer in the tenor, then the bass, and lastly the soprano voice when the flute comes in. The countermelody would be in the clarinet as soon as the bassoon first comes in, but when the oboe comes in I took out the countermelody letting you hear what I would use as one of the episodes if I decided to finish the fugue. Also I know that fugues are predominantly polyphony, but I can't help myself adding some homophonic textures in there also, for example when the clarinet comes underneath the oboe. Thank you for listening and your comments! I always enjoy your music.


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## muk (Nov 24, 2016)

Nice improvement, the bassoonist played much more musically in your second take. Well done.


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## Rodney Money (Nov 24, 2016)

muk said:


> Nice improvement, the bassoonist played much more musically in your second take. Well done.


Thank you for taking the time to both listen and comment again. I had to have a talk with that bassoon player telling him to put some heart in it, man! Lol.


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 25, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> I tried to incorporate all of your concerns, my friend. I believe the noise you were hearing might have been the Teldex room tone but not totally sure. Here's my update:



It seems to be better this time around, but I think it's air blowing noises in the samples. Guess you can't do much about it. It's not bad, it's just a bit pronounced.

I like your philosophy about the parts. I try to follow it myself. I think a happy player with an interesting part is one of the best things one can do. <3

I love woodwinds, too. :3 (Here's a short one of mine with quite a few of them, if you're interested: https://clyp.it/1p4tp2js?token=45ec46bed1036ffa085f48849cae7b81 )


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## Rodney Money (Nov 25, 2016)

WhiteNoiz said:


> It seems to be better this time around, but I think it's air blowing noises in the samples. Guess you can't do much about it. It's not bad, it's just a bit pronounced.
> 
> I like your philosophy about the parts. I try to follow it myself. I think a happy player with an interesting part is one of the best things one can do. <3
> 
> I love woodwinds, too. :3 (Here's a short one of mine with quite a few of them, if you're interested: https://clyp.it/1p4tp2js?token=45ec46bed1036ffa085f48849cae7b81 )


Thank you so much, my friend, for listening and commenting a second time. It really means a lot. Could you tell me what instrument, if possible, that you are hearing the blowing noise? Because if it's the clarinet, oboe, and especially the flute something can be done about that. On the fast short flute articulations, for example, I can take out the air tonguing sounds.

Yes, even when I am writing for samples I am always thinking about the live player. "Will viola like their part and how about 3rd clarinet, or bass trombone?" That's what goes into my head.

I can't wait to listen to your piece on Monday in my studio. My phone would not do it justice.


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 25, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Could you tell me what instrument, if possible, that you are hearing the blowing noise?



I think it's the flute, maybe the oboe (or it's probably just empowering that quality of the flute at that part). It's from 0:41 to 0:50.


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## Rodney Money (Nov 25, 2016)

WhiteNoiz said:


> I think it's the flute, maybe the oboe (or it's probably just empowering that quality of the flute at that part). It's from 0:41 to 0:50.


I think I know what you are hearing now. The flute has a noise option that is basically the sound of tonguing air. I am wondering if I turn it off then the sound will be more pleasing?


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 26, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> I am wondering if I turn it off then the sound will be more pleasing?



Probably.  But it's your piece, so do whatever sounds better to you.


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## Rodney Money (Nov 28, 2016)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Probably.  But it's your piece, so do whatever sounds better to you.


Thank you for the response again and the reassurance. I truly do love hearing people's opinions.


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## Saxer (Nov 28, 2016)

Do you have a breath controller?


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## Rodney Money (Nov 28, 2016)

Saxer said:


> Do you have a breath controller?



Man, I wish especially being a wind player myself. I am adding some "noises" and cutting some out also. I also decided to add just a touch of reverb.


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## Rodney Money (Nov 28, 2016)

Saxer said:


> Do you have a breath controller?


New version just updated:


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## Saxer (Nov 28, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Man, I wish especially being a wind player myself. I am adding some "noises" and cutting some out also. I also decided to add just a touch of reverb.


I don't mean a windcontroller... just the little TEControl. As a brass player you know how to breathe. I think that would be your tool!
http://tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller


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## Rodney Money (Nov 28, 2016)

Saxer said:


> I don't mean a windcontroller... just the little TEControl. As a brass player you know how to breathe. I think that would be your tool!
> http://tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller


Thank you so much for the link, my friend.


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## Morodiene (Nov 28, 2016)

I think you're on the right track, the beginning clarinet sounds much better/more realistic. Not sure what you did, but the end result is that I was able to focus more on the composition - which is super cute! (hopefully that's what you were going for LOL)! You should finish it. :D


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 29, 2016)

Still quite noisy for me and it's quite static and has some timing issues (not necessarily a problem, depending on how swingy you want it) overall. With one phrase, I'd say it sounds like a rehearsal. Not sure what you could do with the articulations you have though, so I'll say it's fine.  (Mine is a bit like that too, so I shouldn't say _too_ much, haha)


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## Rodney Money (Nov 29, 2016)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Still quite noisy for me and it's quite static and has some timing issues (not necessarily a problem, depending on how swingy you want it) overall. With one phrase, I'd say it sounds like a rehearsal. Not sure what you could do with the articulations you have though, so I'll say it's fine.  (Mine is a bit like that too, so I shouldn't say _too_ much, haha)


Just for fun and curiosity, here is a version with no room tone, no key or tongue noises, and BPM= a precise 92.
https://app.box.com/s/2z8zp4pyk9ideq78uhdkoqj5cnbkdl5i


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## Morodiene (Nov 29, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Just for fun and curiosity, here is a version with no room tone, no key or tongue noises, and BPM= a precise 92.
> https://app.box.com/s/2z8zp4pyk9ideq78uhdkoqj5cnbkdl5i


I can't speak to the noise because I didn't really pick up on that to begin with, but I do hear what others are saying about the timing. It happens in the clarinet first around 0:06 (just one note is late I think) and then around 0:14-0:16. You may want to push some notes a little to the left to start them earlier. It almost sounds as though the clarinet is starting a new phrase rather than continuing from the previous note. I think if there's a slight overlap in the notes that can help mask this, but you'll have to experiment a bit.


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 29, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> https://app.box.com/s/2z8zp4pyk9ideq78uhdkoqj5cnbkdl5i



Overall, it's better (for me)... But now it needs some kind of humanising. Just a touch. :DDDD Maybe vary the tempo at different points and less (and phrasing). Some _rit._ at the end would help it methinks. Something like this. I feel like I'm torturing you, sorry. But... No pain, no gain.  (It's also useful to me to focus on things from a different perspective) There's also something weird going on with the legato at around 0:14.

Hopefully this helps...


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## Rodney Money (Nov 29, 2016)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Overall, it's better (for me)... But now it needs some kind of humanising. Just a touch. :DDDD Maybe vary the tempo at different points and less (and phrasing). Some _rit._ at the end would help it methinks. Something like this. I feel like I'm torturing you, sorry. But... No pain, no gain.  (It's also useful to me to focus on things from a different perspective) There's also something weird going on with the legato at around 0:14.
> 
> Hopefully this helps...


Oh I am having fun too, buddy. That one was to basically mess with you, lol. I wished that I had more time to work on it, but my darn trumpet player is probably wondering where his concerto is and here I am messing with woodwinds. The one posted in the first post in the Soundcloud does have tempo changes everywhere. Normally I play everything in live like this example:

But this was the first time I tried to program midi notes. I know what I need to do now, go back and with every legato transition move up the midi a little. I think that will greatly help with the swinging drunkardness of the clarinet player especially. Man, I wish she could sight-read better, lol. Thanks again, dude. You cannot torture me, I have a 3 year-old.


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 29, 2016)

Yeah, I'd listened to that track. I think it was from a live performance? It's good.

I meant tempo changes on the steady tempo one.  If you played it in it'd probably be better. Anyway, I don't think I have anything to add.



Rodney Money said:


> You cannot torture me, I have a 3 year-old.


Hehe.


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