# Orchestraltools are into Brass teasing



## rocking.xmas.man (Sep 9, 2016)

Hi all - some of you might miss it on facebook, but orchestraltools is teaser-ing #nextgenbrass
They also are on twitter now.

"Having control over the attacks makes it NextGen"
"Simply adding Adaptive Legato to every Articulation I want makes it NextGen"

well it feels like summer slowly is fading.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 9, 2016)

It'll be interesting to see whether the attack control is playable wizardry or whether it's just switching between soft/immediate/accented samples as in Berlin Strings. The latter is okay, but too often the soft and accent samples aren't quite right for a phrase. And while legato on any articulation is nice, again, I'm not sure it counts as "next gen" when it's been in CAPSULE for quite a while now... _unless _it's a particularly nice re-implementation of it.


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 9, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> It'll be interesting to see whether the attack control is playable wizardry or whether it's just switching between soft/immediate/accented samples as in Berlin Strings. The latter is okay, but too often the soft and accent samples aren't quite right for a phrase. And while legato on any articulation is nice, again, I'm not sure it counts as "next gen" when it's been in CAPSULE for quite a while now... _unless _it's a particularly nice re-implementation of it.


And to think I was tempted by Spitfire Symphonic Brass... My reservations paid off, NOW GET HYPED BOYS, SOON COMES THE MYTHICAL LIBRARY THAT WILL LIBERATE US FROM CINEBRASS.

No, but seriously. Pretty incredible that HWB and CineBrass came out around 2011/2012 and are still the golden standard. Looking forward to seeing what neat things Orchestral Tools is going to show off.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 9, 2016)

Isn't "NextGen" something that people say who also say "multimedia" and "cyberspace"? Anyways, looking forward to the lib


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## muziksculp (Sep 9, 2016)

Looking forward to see OT Brass released soon !


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## Zookes (Sep 9, 2016)

Chris Hein Orchestral Brass interface is flexible like this already. "Note head" feature makes a legato patch good for most things, is like realtime envelope attack tweaking.

Orchestral Tools is taking this idea and polishing it maybe???


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 9, 2016)

They've done the same teasing with their recent libraries. They started doing the teasers about a month before the Metropolis release, and about two weeks before the First Chairs release. So it might be close!!


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## Smikes77 (Sep 9, 2016)

I've been saving myself for this one, can't wait.

Well I can, but I can't. I mean I'll have to, but I'm not happy about it!


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## dcoscina (Sep 9, 2016)

This is tasty and I've been using OT MEtropolis Ark and Sphere on a ton of projects these days but Spitfire Brass update would cost me like 79 BP so it's hard not to go that route. However, I will wait to see what OT does. I love being able to change art and note length a la CineBrass infinitely more than KS or multiple tracks with various articulations.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Sep 9, 2016)

Zookes said:


> Chris Hein Orchestral Brass interface is flexible like this already.



but sounds bad


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## Silence-is-Golden (Sep 9, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Isn't "NextGen" something that people say who also say "multimedia" and "cyberspace"? Anyways, looking forward to the lib


You mean as in 'star trek, the next gen'?


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## Silence-is-Golden (Sep 9, 2016)

And don't forget Cinematic Studio series guys, als due for release in 2016.


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## muk (Sep 9, 2016)

"Simply adding adaptive legato to any articulation... "

That's no surprise. Most likely it's the same concept as in their First Chair library (where the legato, unfortunately, seems to be one of the weaker parts of the library. At least it is for me. The transitions are a bit inconsistent, as are the legato playing styles between the instruments).

"Having control over the attacks..." Again, could be the same concept as in First Chairs, where you have three types of attack (soft, immediate, accented). As ModalRealist said. And again, it,'s not a feature that I find particularly well executed there.

I'm interested to hear the sound of their brass. Tonewise I very often like what I hear from OT. But the scripting part and playability - judging only from their First Chairs! - is something that I found surprisingly underwhelming.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Sep 9, 2016)

I do agree with you Muk, for me OT first chairs, regarding the long notes at least, has been the least succesful product of OT.

All the more amazing how Adam Hochstatter has made such a high quality demo for OT's FC.
That demo, and Sascha Knorr's spiccato piece in the walkthrough is what sold me to this library.
And unfortunately their legato's and vibrato's were the weakest points in my view.
Hopefully, they will correct that in the future.


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## Zookes (Sep 9, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> but sounds bad


Exactly why OT brass is interesting to me. Maybe they will polish this idea.


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## erica-grace (Sep 9, 2016)

I cant wait for the official announcement! 

Two reasons

1) Because I want more brass, and can't see how, based on other OT releases, this would be anything less than great!

2) Because I want to see how many people are going to say it's overpriced, and I have to rethink this purchase, and if it were x, than I'd buy it, and with all the competition, you would think it would be more competitively priced, and does OT ever do any sales ....


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## Karl Feuerstake (Sep 9, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> but sounds bad



It sounds tuba-d for you?



Zookes said:


> Exactly why OT brass is interesting to me. Maybe they will polish this idea.



Naw, I'm pretty sure OT is German.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 9, 2016)

I'm very interested in this. Partly for tone/sound and also to see how they've implemented everything. No doubt it will be tempting. Though as said earlier we have Cinematic Studio release due sometime (soonish I hope), and the Spitfire intro discounted Symphonic Brass. Too many choices right now, and I picked up Adventure Brass already (which is great) but I'd like a softer, lyrical option with some solos. No doubt the OT release will sprain my wallet but it may well be worth it in the long run.


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## jamwerks (Sep 10, 2016)

Can't wait to see the articulation list. Hope it will be as exhaustive as HB!

Amazing how coincidence has it that so many devs end up coming out with similar products at the same time. Solo strings this summer, and brass this fall...


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## Lawson. (Sep 10, 2016)

Ok, I am super hyped right now.


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## Haakond (Sep 10, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> Ok, I am super hyped right now.



If this means what I think it does, I am super hyped as well


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## NoamL (Sep 10, 2016)

Divisi brass huh?

Might just have to mock up this 



If they truly have sampled 11 brass instruments and have some kind of under the hood divisi orchestrator like LASS that'll be a true game changer.

Right now there is _*no*_ library besides Sample Modeling (that I know of) that can even tackle the above excerpt, and if you listen closely SM doesn't do too great at modeling a2 and a4 unisons for obvious reasons:



On the other hand it could all be marketing hype. Wait till it comes out and then we'll see exactly what they mean by divisi


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## jamwerks (Sep 10, 2016)

Saying "divisi" when speaking of brass isn't really clear (it's not a term used in scores).
Though I doubt they've done 4 different horn solos, even having just two would be great (as well as a2 and a4 patches). And having two different trumpets would also be awesome!


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## Zookes (Sep 10, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> Can't wait to see the articulation list. Hope it will be as exhaustive as HB!


Hoping it will be more usable than exhaustive, but doing both is nice.

Do not need yet another brass library with "crescendo 2sec, crescendo 3sec, crescendo 6sec, sustain + staccato, sustain + marcato, etc." and billions of keyswitches but no flexible control for realtime play.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 10, 2016)

If they are doing it in BBR Exp C style, with 4 individual horns, you can play chords, with each horn having different articulation, that would be great to have for other brass too. I'm hyped!


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## muk (Sep 10, 2016)

What is divisi "on brass *as well*" supposed to mean? As far as I know there is no divisi in Berlin Strings.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 10, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> Though I doubt they've done 4 different horn solos,



They already did this for BBR EXP C. Because its an SFX library, the only 'core' articulation in EXP C is Sustain. But man, it's fun writing chordal parts with those horns.



muk said:


> What is divisi "on brass *as well*" supposed to mean?



I think it might just be the way they've done the adverts: <Point 1 makes it NextGen>, <Point 2 makes it NextGen>, <Point 3 makes it NextGen *as well*>. Also, BWW has 'divisi' in that it has broken-down sections.


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## jamwerks (Sep 10, 2016)

Yeah you're right they did already do this in BWW (3 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons) and BBR Exp. C. So who knows, maybe they've gone all out and sampled 11 different instruments! That would be cool !

Not sure that combining 4 solo sampled horns would give us a true a4 sound though. Maybe they'll have done also an horns a4 (or a6) patch?

Really hoping for some great multi-tongue samples !


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## Rodney Money (Sep 10, 2016)

Well, we brass players have a few sayings also. One of them being, "Don't tell people you're special, show them," and here's another, "Let your horn do the talking."


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## rottoy (Sep 10, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Well, we brass players have a few sayings also. One of them being, "Don't tell people you're special, show them," and here's another, "Let your horn do the talking."


Or the immortal "Stay horny."


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## Rodney Money (Sep 10, 2016)

rottoy said:


> Or the immortal "Stay horny."


That would explain why horn players stick their hands in their bells.


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## rottoy (Sep 10, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> That would explain why horn players stick their hands in the bells.


That would be the origin of the colloquial chestnut "getting down to brass tacks".


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 10, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Well, we brass players have a few sayings also. One of them being, "Don't tell people you're special, show them," and here's another, "Let your horn do the talking."


Sounds like a recipe for trouble. Lol


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## ModalRealist (Sep 10, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> Maybe they'll have done also an horns a4 (or a6) patch?



They did this in BWW too. For the Clarinets (two individual sets and an a2) and the Flutes (including the Piccolo, arranged 8va). I've had high hopes for their Brass for years, as a result.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 10, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> They did this in BWW too. For the Clarinets (two individual sets and an a2) and the Flutes (including the Piccolo, arranged 8va). I've had high hopes for their Brass for years, as a result.


It's definitely got the potential to be a bit of a gold standard along with BWW and BSTs. I'm getting more excited about its imminent release (falling victim to the hype perhaps). It's been such a long time coming that I'm also putting a lot of pressure on it to be bloody good.


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## Markus S (Sep 11, 2016)

muk said:


> "Simply adding adaptive legato to any articulation... "
> 
> That's no surprise. Most likely it's the same concept as in their First Chair library (where the legato, unfortunately, seems to be one of the weaker parts of the library. At least it is for me. The transitions are a bit inconsistent, as are the legato playing styles between the instruments).
> 
> ...



Agreed to this. FC was my first OT library and after all the hype I read about the company I was really surprised there was so much wrong with the library. Personally I'll refrain from any more purchases from them from now in case the other products are have similar flaws. Luckily the first chairs can be hidden in the mix so its still usable.


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## muk (Sep 11, 2016)

Indeed, for the reputation the company has I found the recording and especially programming of their First Chairs to be disappointingly sloppy. My first OT purchase as well, and, despite the gorgeous sound, not one that made me considering more OT products.


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## NoamL (Sep 11, 2016)

Well OT are definitely hyping it up with this next-gen moniker and slow drip of info.

Since they bring up the idea, the features that would make a brass lib truly next gen for me would be

actual _orchestratable_ full kit of brass, not just solos and ensembles
2D tone control, loudness should be independently controllable from brassiness
That's it honestly; apart from deep flaws in these two areas, Hollywood Brass is and remains an excellent library. 

So it's not a huge wishlist.

But those are both *massive challenges.*

You gotta watch out about the demos though. I can already guess what we will see.

*ET Horns *a6 playing soaring broad legato melodies
*Private Ryan Trumpets *playing solo, pensive soliloquies
*Inception Trombones* playing badass whole-note chords
already saw a bit of this with the Century Brass teasers.

This is not next gen!

Take the over-the-moon horns - I am grateful that this sheer magic will be at our fingertips - but technologically, we're talking about an ensemble of players playing a unison line with realistic expression and comprehensively deep-sampled legato transitions. This is what devs have been doing with strings for half a decade. It is a solved challenge. The ceiling on strings seems to me to no longer be technological, but budgetary - features like divisi, real con sord, comprehensive shorts, are axed not because they're unachievable, but because they're expensive and devs think the market will miss them least.

Great strings came before great brass, I believe this is no accident, it is because brass has extra challenges layered on top of the ones already encountered and conquered in strings.

To summarize:

the brass orchestration challenge involves the expense and difficulty of sampling *up to 2x as many independent parts* as the string orchestra and then making all these asynchronous recording sessions seem like they're actually playing music together - note the extra difficulty here that string libraries are asynchronous recordings of 5 ensembles while an ideal brass library would be asynchronous recordings of up to 11 soloists (BWW and the recent string quartet libraries could be seen as attempts to tackle these challenges)

the tone challenge is about the fact that the existing MIDI paradigm *(riding dynamics and tone together with one controlling variable) *was designed for piano, and then later adapted fairly well to strings, but is insufficient for wind instruments.


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## camelot (Sep 11, 2016)

Who knows how long it will take till release. 
Maybe they just started teasing to remember everyone that their brass is still in the pipeline after Spitfire and Adventure Brass has all the attention at the moment, with Cinematic Studio Brass to follow. Too many potential customers may lose their interest in new brass because they got already served by other available options. With more competition, their expected market share gets smaller and smaller.

All speculations.


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## amorphosynthesis (Sep 11, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> but sounds bad



realy?
does it sound bad?
i don't think so


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## Geocranium (Sep 11, 2016)

Yeah I'll probably end up passing on this, purely due to price. Remember when Berlin Strings was released it was over $1k? This looks even more deeply sampled... 

It's hard to compete with Spitfire Brass being in the $200-range after the EDU discount, at least for me personally.


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## dcoscina (Sep 11, 2016)

Geocranium said:


> Yeah I'll probably end up passing on this, purely due to price. Remember when Berlin Strings was released it was over $1k? This looks even more deeply sampled...
> 
> It's hard to compete with Spitfire Brass being in the $200-range after the EDU discount, at least for me personally.


I think it's a bit hasty to dismiss this purely on past library pricing. OT knows its competition and the market. Like you, I'm a little cash strapped and the Spitfire upgrade would only cost me $150 Canadian but I'm holding off all bets until I hear this new library. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Metropolis Ark brass and I've gotten a lot of compliments about how real they sound in the work I've produced. If this library is anything like that, it might be a good investment. I can write this expense off as a tax deduction however.


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## jamwerks (Sep 11, 2016)

Doubt they'll be 8 discret horn soloists. Not even sure I'd want that. Probably 4 soloists, and other ensemble patches.

Let's hear more about the controllable attack & multi tongueing! And knowing Hendrick is the fan he is of Ravel and Debussy, hope he's done an SfzP on muted (or stopped) horn solo.


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 11, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> Doubt they'll be 8 discret horn soloists. Not even sure I'd want that. Probably 4 soloists, and other ensemble patches.
> 
> Let's hear more about the controllable attack & multi tongueing! And knowing Hendrick is the fan he is of Ravel and Debussy, hope he's done an SfzP on muted (or stopped) horn solo.


Probably 8, 4, 2, 1. 1=1, 2=2, 3=2+1, 4=4, 5=4+1, 6=4+2, 7=4+2+1, 8=8


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## ModalRealist (Sep 11, 2016)

I hope that OT offers competitive pricing, otherwise I'd definitely reconsider a purchase, no matter how good the library. MA and BPC were reasonably priced, I felt. BST was definitely over-priced (especially given the various issues it has - and definitely considering the state it was released in...).

However, I'd be _very _surprised if BBR was priced close to BST. BST uses 28 players (8/6/5/5/4). My estimate is that BBR would use no more than around twenty players (for example, including the maximum of eight horns, four trumpets, four trombones, two bass trombones, and two[!] tubas). Brass instruments have substantially fewer weird playing techniques requiring recording (compared to strings) so this also cuts down on recording time. I'm sure I read that Teldex are quite a fan of OT, so they probably get reasonable recording rates. That means the biggest outlay on recording time is for the musicians themselves. I can't imagine that BBR's recording time would top BST's.

For contrast BWW uses eleven players, and costs just over half what BST costs. So my prediction would be that BBR will come in around the price of BPC with its Timpani Expansion (580eur). Then there will probably be some kind of intro deal. Who knows... perhaps they'll even sweeten it up for those of us who've already bought into the whole Berlin project, with BWW/BST/BPC... eh, @OT_Tobias? (It was worth a try. )

*Edit: *if @Zhao Shen is right about the horn mathematics, then I'd expect the price to be lower, due to fewer players then in my calculation. Perhaps closer to the cost of BPC on its own (i.e. without the Timpani expansion).



jamwerks said:


> muted (or stopped) horn solo



Mutes are officially an expansion item. (Look on the Observatory on their site.)


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## ysnyvz (Sep 11, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Probably 8, 4, 2, 1. 1=1, 2=2, 3=2+1, 4=4, 5=4+1, 6=4+2, 7=4+2+1, 8=8


According to your calculation, they would say between 1 and 15. 
I think they have 2 solos, a2 and a4.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 11, 2016)

ysnyvz said:


> I think they have 2 solos, a2 and a4.



This is probably right. Although I confess I'd prefer 4 x individual horns, 2 x a2, and 1 x a4.


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## erica-grace (Sep 11, 2016)

Geocranium said:


> Yeah I'll probably end up passing on this, purely due to price. Remember when Berlin Strings was released it was over $1k? This looks even more deeply sampled...



See, what'd I tell you? Already it's starting....


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## erica-grace (Sep 11, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> This is probably right. Although I confess I'd prefer 4 x individual horns, 2 x a2, and 1 x a4.



Personally, i'd rather have two solos, a3 and a6....


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## dcoscina (Sep 11, 2016)

When is this due out anyhow?


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## ModalRealist (Sep 11, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> Personally, i'd rather have two solos, a3 and a6....



How would you write three or four part harmony with that?


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## NoamL (Sep 11, 2016)

Yeah that sounds like 1/1/2/4. Otherwise they'd just say "Having 4 horns is next gen" and blow our minds.

(unfortunately, 1/1/2/4 does not blow my mind.)

As to price, here's an expectations setter for ya. Let's say the trumpets are 1/1/2/3, the horns are 1/1/2/4, the trombones are 1/1/3, the tuba is 1.

That would be an improvement over HWB but not a quantum leap.

But already that is 12 tranches of recording compared to 5 for a string orchestra. Just imagine sampling the staccatos. It doesn't matter if there are fewer musicians, you are still sitting at Teldex waiting for each note to die out before sampling the next... and the next... also the horn has a *MASSIVE* range.

IMO there are two possibilities for what's gonna happen this fall -

It could be that one library is an incredible quantum leap past all the competition and everyone will be buying it.

But more likely is that they will be rather similar products and only incremental improvements on the current gen, in which case people will likely buy whatever completes their orchestra-in-a-box (Since I love CSS, I'm strongly incentivized to buy CSB). Or if you're a working pro you'll buy everything


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## Zookes (Sep 11, 2016)

ysnyvz said:


> According to your calculation, they would say between 1 and 15.
> I think they have 2 solos, a2 and a4.


Calculate for largest unison ensemble, not for largest combinations.

4+4 is believable for sampled 8-player 2-part divisi, but not for 8-player unison, meaning 8-player recording is required to simulate this size if the piece requires it.

Maybe it is possible to make 4+4+4+4 for somewhat convincing 16-player 4-part divisi, but 8+8 will not make so convincing of 16-player unison! Will need 16-player unison recording to simulate such a size convincingly. Makes sense?

Optimal size options for full 8-player divisi in _any_ combination must be 1, 2, 3, 4 and 8. Sample library developers will probably not do so many, but hoping anyway that it happens!


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## NoamL (Sep 11, 2016)

Remembering that Metropolis Ark is Hn a3 and a9, I don't reckon they would do an a8 ensemble for the Berlin series. That would be a crazy sound sitting alongside their woodwind soloists and a 28-piece string orchestra.


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## Zookes (Sep 11, 2016)

NoamL said:


> Remembering that Metropolis Ark is Hn a3 and a9, I don't reckon they would do an a8 ensemble for the Berlin series. That would be a crazy sound sitting alongside their woodwind soloists and a 28-piece string orchestra.


Maybe true. Maybe also they prefer "big brass" sound as is so popular? We will see.


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## jamwerks (Sep 11, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> How would you write three or four part harmony with that?


All we would need is 2 horn solos imo, plus some of the a2 & a4's. For 4-part writing I would use:

1 - Horn A
2 - Horn B
3 - Horn A
4 - Horn B


That would be much better than using the same soloist for all 4 parts, like we have had to with HB, CB, BML, etc.


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## Shubus (Sep 11, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> Ok, I am super hyped right now.



Yir! Those FB teasers are intoxicating. Get those credit cards ready, folks!


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 11, 2016)

NoamL said:


> Yeah that sounds like 1/1/2/4. Otherwise they'd just say "Having 4 horns is next gen" and blow our minds.
> 
> (unfortunately, 1/1/2/4 does not blow my mind.)
> 
> ...



Let's not forget that section sizes are just a detail. With their teases it's now expected that they'll give us solos, divisi, and full section sizes. The "improvement" part comes with superior sampling/scripting.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 11, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Let's not forget that section sizes are just a detail. With their teases it's now expected that they'll give us solos, divisi, and full section sizes. The "improvement" part comes with superior sampling/scripting.



True. If, for example, they can offer convincing auto-divisi scripting, that'd be pretty nice.

Honestly, there's so much 'big brass' out there, I _really _hope they stick with a matching sound to BWW and BST. My ideal instrument list is:

2 Trumpets (2 x solo, 1 x a2)
4 Horns (4 x solo, 2 x a2, 1 x a4)
2 Trombones (2 x solo, 1 x a2)
1 Bass Trombone
1 Tuba
Sampled with the following core articulations:

Adaptive Legato (slurs, tongued, runs)
Portato, Staccato, Staccatissimo
Trills HT and WT
Honestly. That'd do me just fine. If it was done properly, it could handle so much brass writing. And _really proper _brass writing. To be honest, I've always just been deeply confused as to why it hasn't been done. I guess good brass writing just isn't popular these days?

Screw that. The Proms have no problem with popularity and they feature proper brass writing all the way through!


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 11, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> When is this due out anyhow?


This is something I'd like a better idea of.

If not putting a definite release date out (I understand why that may not be easy or even possible), I'd like to hear/see some teaser demos of how it's set up and used and how it sounds. 

All of this feeds into my decision making re library acquisition which at this point in time are legion.

Does anyone think there will be cimbassi or would that be a part of an expansion or not even fit with the Berlin series?


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## ModalRealist (Sep 11, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Does anyone think there will be cimbassi or would that be a part of an expansion or not even fit with the Berlin series?



Their Observatory page has two expansions for BBR listed. One for mutes. One for "additional instruments." I'd be willing to bet that a Cimbasso would be 'additional.' (A contrabasson, for example, is in the BWW 'additional instruments' expansion.) But obviously, for the moment, there's no knowing.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 11, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> Their Observatory page has two expansions for BBR listed. One for mutes. One for "additional instruments." I'd be willing to bet that a Cimbasso would be 'additional.' (A contrabasson, for example, is in the BWW 'additional instruments' expansion.) But obviously, for the moment, there's no knowing.


Thank you. I guess that is what I'm expecting to happen.


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## Geocranium (Sep 11, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> See, what'd I tell you? Already it's starting....



Well REALLY I doubt it's going to be any less than $500 after currency conversion, and even if it WAS $500, it would still be way outside of my budget. 

I really like these teasers and have been hyped for OT to do a brass library ever since BWW was released... but I'm just too strapped for a major purchase like that right now. Again, this is only personally. 

I'm still debating getting Spitfire Brass, because it's only going to cost me ~$250, which is something I can afford. I enjoy Hollywood Brass, but I've been looking out for a complimentary library for quite a while now. I suppose if Berlin is a massive quantum leap ahead in brass libraries, I'll have to suck it up and save up.


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## Maestro1972 (Sep 11, 2016)

What would make it nextgen?

"to be able to play brass warm and smooth as well as brazen and epic." -Maestro1972 composer hobbyist and (ex) trumpet and horn player

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! Give us what we have been missing! Give us the softer side of brass. This is what I would like to see.


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 11, 2016)

What makes it NextGen?
"To be priced at a cost that does not drain Zhao Shen's wallet." - Abraham Lincoln


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## NoamL (Sep 11, 2016)

This is just a silly little example but check it out.




On the left we have "eight" horns from... some library. And on the right there are "eight" horns from... another library.  (both sides were recorded with pretty minimal effort on the MIDI/CCs and could be cleaned up further.)

What's the difference? The difference is only side actually has eight real musicians! Can you hear which?

This is why a true orchestratable ensemble would be "really next gen" for me


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## jamwerks (Sep 12, 2016)

Sounds like real on left and SampleModeling on the right!


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 12, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> What makes it NextGen?
> "To be priced at a cost that does not drain Zhao Shen's wallet." - Abraham Lincoln


Man, that Abe Lincoln was the shiz.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 12, 2016)

I'd like to ask a question that's pretty much impossible to answer but I'll ask anyway:
I'm stuck deciding on whether to wait on OT Berlin Brass or jump at Spitfire's Symphonic Brass intro pricing.
I seem to read some reviews/comments on Spitfire Brass that say it's awesome, while there are some others who indicate there might be some problems with it. I'm not sure exactly what the perceived problems are, and it may only be problems with certain instruments. I have some Spitfire libraries already so I feel like I know what to expect with this latest consolidated offering. I do not (at this point) have any OT libraries so I'm unsure about Berlin Brass. If OT decides to release some demo's/teasers/walk throughs in the very near future I will probably have a better idea of where I stand but, I don't know when to expect that.

I'm also wavering on possibly pulling the trigger soon on Berlin Woodwinds and/or WW Expansion B soloists but, again I'm expecting to see Spitfire release a consolidated BML woodwinds in the near future.

What are the opinions out there on which, if you could only choose one (BML or Berlin series)? If you really think both is worth it, can you say why? I picked up Adventure Brass on release too and I really like the easy play-ability being able to lay down a track quickly playing it in on keyboard and I also like the tone/sound. If I had to choose between sound quality and play-ability I'd probably live with key switches and multiple patches to get a lovely, accurate tone with flexibility of articulations. Your opinions appreciated.

Edit - an opinion of neither is also valid.


----------



## ysnyvz (Sep 12, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> I'm stuck deciding on whether to wait on OT Berlin Brass or jump at Spitfire's Symphonic Brass intro pricing.


They will have more info next week. Perhaps you can wait a little more and then ask "so now what?".


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## Smikes77 (Sep 12, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> See, what'd I tell you? Already it's starting....



That`s Jedi stuff, that is.


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## mc_deli (Sep 12, 2016)

Noooo.
It's the German punctuation that makes it truly NextGerm!


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## ModalRealist (Sep 12, 2016)

I've finally figured out what a _genuinely _next-gen library would be:

*"Its NextGen because you sound like Andy Blaney from just mashing your 49-key keyboard."*

~ ~ ~

@SoNowWhat? both BML and Berlin are great virtual orchestras. They have, IMO, hugely different tones. You only have to compare the demos to see that. I don't think there's any real difference in playability, overall, between the two. Both require careful setup, and continued massaging of articulations and MIDI data. (Andy Blaney apparently plays his Spitfire demos in live at the keyboard, but I can't imagine he doesn't do a fair bit of cleanup afterwards.) In short, I would suggest going with the sound you like most. Teldex and Air Lyndhurst have such distinctive tones that, whichever you go with, you better like that noise - because you'll be hearing it _a lot! _Also, FWIW, while I know that plenty of people blend libraries from all over the place, I remain unconvinced about such things (not because of room response/wetness, but because of _frequency response, _stereo field issues, etc).


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## Karl Feuerstake (Sep 12, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> True. If, for example, they can offer convincing auto-divisi scripting, that'd be pretty nice.
> 
> Honestly, there's so much 'big brass' out there, I _really _hope they stick with a matching sound to BWW and BST. My ideal instrument list is:
> 
> ...



I hope they include at least 1 Contrabass Trombone (maybe it'll be in Additional Instruments.) I mean, OT is German, and they're pretty much the only people who've made any great use of it... (not 100% true but largely accurate.) We'll need a good "Kontrabass Posaune" at some point. One tuned in F/Bb/Ab would be alright, but a 'double-slide' tuned a 5th lower in Bb/F would be incredible.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 12, 2016)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> I hope they include at least 1 Contrabass Trombone. I mean, OT is German, and they're pretty much the only ones who've made any great use of it... we'll need a good "Kontrabass Posaune" at some point. One tuned in F/Bb/Ab would be alright, but a 'double-slide' tuned a 5th lower in Bb/F would be incredible.



While I wouldn't complain, I imagine that Contrabass Trombone, Cimbasso, Piccolo Trumpet, Cornet, Alto Trombone, and perhaps Wagner Tubas would be in the Additional Instruments expansion.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 12, 2016)

ysnyvz said:


> They will have more info next week. Perhaps you can wait a little more and then ask "so now what?".


lol
You are right of course (if more soon). Nearly another month before having to make a final decision.


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## Reactor.UK (Sep 12, 2016)

Quite possibly off-topic... noticed on the spitfire website, reference of British Colliery Bands. Granted both these OT and Spitfire are Orchestral brass, but would love a cornet. Oh well.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 12, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> I've finally figured out what a _genuinely _next-gen library would be:
> 
> *"Its NextGen because you sound like Andy Blaney from just mashing your 49-key keyboard."*
> 
> ...


Thank you for the considered response (and the jokes). That helps.

Edit - Just read that back. I was being 100% genuine in case it wasn't clear. That really does help.


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## NoamL (Sep 12, 2016)

NoamL said:


>






jamwerks said:


> Sounds like real on left and SampleModeling on the right!



Right - HWB hn a2 x 4
Left - Octohorn hn a8 recorded divisi chords


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 12, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> I'd like to ask a question that's pretty much impossible to answer but I'll ask anyway:
> I'm stuck deciding on whether to wait on OT Berlin Brass or jump at Spitfire's Symphonic Brass intro pricing.
> I seem to read some reviews/comments on Spitfire Brass that say it's awesome, while there are some others who indicate there might be some problems with it. I'm not sure exactly what the perceived problems are, and it may only be problems with certain instruments. I have some Spitfire libraries already so I feel like I know what to expect with this latest consolidated offering. I do not (at this point) have any OT libraries so I'm unsure about Berlin Brass. If OT decides to release some demo's/teasers/walk throughs in the very near future I will probably have a better idea of where I stand but, I don't know when to expect that.
> 
> ...


Wait it out. I am 99% certain that at least one (and likely all) of OT Berlin Brass, Cinematic Studio Brass, and 8Dio Century Brass will be superior to Spitfire Symphonic Brass. With developers taking steps into new ultra-playable technologies like Adventure Brass, there really is a chance for these new brass libraries to be "next-gen," though the term has been thrown around much too often.

In my mind, orchestral libraries have gone through the initial "EWQLSO" phase of great samples but poor playability, then the current phase of obsession with true legato and deciding that having 3 lengths of shorts is enough for everything (usually spiccato, staccato, marcato), and soon the phase where people are starting to realize that true legato isn't the be all end all of orchestral sampling and are taking really innovative steps to make things truly next-gen.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 12, 2016)




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## Rodney Money (Sep 12, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


>


Stewie and Martin have the same expression. CC11?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 12, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> the phase where people are starting to realize that true legato isn't the be all end all of orchestral sampling



It's not the be all, end all of orchestral sampling, it's just something that a good library should absolutely have, among some other things.

Heck I don't even care if it's "true" legato as long as it sounds great, it's just that I haven't heard really good simulated legato yet.


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## rottoy (Sep 12, 2016)

These editors spend way too much time making Peter Molyneuxesque statements and less time editing! 
Get to work, damn it!


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 12, 2016)

rottoy said:


> These editors spend way too much time making Peter Molyneuxesque statements and less time editing!
> Get to work, damn it!



I think they do spent a lot of time into that, but I know what you mean. (Black & White Hype ..long time ago..) It is a bit unexpected and strange for me that OT hypes their brass in such way also considerung how differently they presented their product marketing in the past. I mean..they seem to be very sure to put out something massive, still I prefer those things which come out from nowhere and kick major ass, like cinematic studio strings. By putting out those pictures with that "monumental" quotes they get a lot of attention but they also inject a lot of expectations in the audience which is a two edged sword for me. Let´s see when its out.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 12, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I think they do spent a lot of time into that, but I know what you mean. (Black & White Hype ..long time ago..) It is a bit unexpected and strange for me that OT hypes their brass in such way also considerung how differently they presented their product marketing in the past. I mean..they seem to be very sure to put out something massive, still I prefer those things which come out from nowhere and kick major ass, like cinematic studio strings. By putting out those pictures with that "monumental" quotes they get a lot of attention but they also inject a lot of expectations in the audience which is a two edged sword for me. Let´s see when its out.


There is a bit of brass competition right now, it's like everyone wants to get their brass out at once. I guess that explains the brass teasing and the need to have your brass in people's faces before releasing it to the world. 


...ahhhhhh that didn't come out right.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 12, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Wait it out. I am 99% certain that at least one (and likely all) of OT Berlin Brass, Cinematic Studio Brass, and 8Dio Century Brass will be superior to Spitfire Symphonic Brass. With developers taking steps into new ultra-playable technologies like Adventure Brass, there really is a chance for these new brass libraries to be "next-gen," though the term has been thrown around much too often.
> 
> In my mind, orchestral libraries have gone through the initial "EWQLSO" phase of great samples but poor playability, then the current phase of obsession with true legato and deciding that having 3 lengths of shorts is enough for everything (usually spiccato, staccato, marcato), and soon the phase where people are starting to realize that true legato isn't the be all end all of orchestral sampling and are taking really innovative steps to make things truly next-gen.


Thank you, that's also helpful. Much appreciated.


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## Zookes (Sep 12, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Edit - an opinion of neither is also valid.


Always best to wait and see if time permits.

You need a library now? Is project due and the Spitfire option can do this thing?
Maybe should purchase while the price is low.

You do _not_ need a library now? Wait some time.
Maybe patience is difficult. Do not let it be. I say buy the best of what is needed and only what is needed, but maybe instead you are a collector of libraries and the Spitfire sale will help this? I am unsure, but you know your goals and can decide, I think. 

Decide with patience tho, it is helpful.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 12, 2016)

Zookes said:


> Maybe patience is difficult. Do not let it be. I say buy the best of what is needed and only what is needed,


You are absolutely correct. I'm not normally so "dizzy", the Spitfire offer lasts til the end of the month and I do not need to make a decision today. I may start calling you Yoda or Master from here on in. Thank you.


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## Zookes (Sep 13, 2016)

Yoda has better English, I think.

I am sure there is always awareness of the practice of patience here. Could not be musicians without this! 
But the hype-marketing is very good about forcing us to sometimes forget this skill - clouds judgement and such. But to self-diagnose this? It is difficult.

Helpful to have contrarian friends for anti-hype perspective and bring us back to sanity.


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## MoteMusic (Sep 13, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> True. If, for example, they can offer convincing auto-divisi scripting, that'd be pretty nice.
> 
> Honestly, there's so much 'big brass' out there, I _really _hope they stick with a matching sound to BWW and BST. My ideal instrument list is:
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more! Next gen is being able to treat the samples like you'd treat an orchestra.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 13, 2016)

MoteMusic said:


> I couldn't agree more! Next gen is being able to treat the samples like you'd treat an orchestra.



If you choose the right set of articulations with the Hollywood Orchestra and use an articulation switcher, and set it up in VE Pro with 1 instance per instrument, as I do, you pretty much already can.


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## rottoy (Sep 13, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> If you choose the right set of articulations with the Hollywood Orchestra and use an articulation switcher, and set it up in VE Pro with 1 instance per instrument, as I do, you pretty much already can.


I find this post distinctly East West.


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## NoamL (Sep 13, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Stewie and Martin have the same expression. CC11?



Maybe he's using the "mod-hweel" 



ModalRealist said:


> Honestly. That'd do me just fine. If it was done properly, it could handle so much brass writing. And _really proper _brass writing. To be honest, I've always just been deeply confused as to why it hasn't been done. I guess good brass writing just isn't popular these days?



Been thinking about this... I think there might be a vicious circle here. Which you can hear in the comparison between Octohorn and Hollywood Brass

Sampling brass in a real and musical way (like Octohorn) adds two things:

subtle spatialization
individual nuances in parts
When you play 2hn x 4 on one track, because you're riding the modwheel the exact same way for all parts, you don't get the impression of 4 separate musical performances much less 8 musicians. Almost sounds like an organ. This is very clear in the HWB part of the track.

So why not record 2hn on 4 *separate* tracks and ride them independently? Because of the second defect; they would still feel "piled on top of each other."

These problems possibly encourage a style of writing that minimizes them. "Sustain brass" to put it politely, along with a8-a16 unison horn lines. The stuff that currently dominates VI music.

Hope "next gen" will change this... (the Octohorn doesn't count as next gen, it's just recorded chords and you totally can't control what you write)


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## jamwerks (Sep 13, 2016)

NoamL said:


> ...So why not record 2hn on 4 *separate* tracks and ride them independently? Because of the second defect; they would still feel "piled on top of each other."


But it's still 4 x the exact same instrument, panned in the same place, thus nowhere near the richness of 8 individuel players.

For the horns, hoping for 2 x soloists, 2 x a2, a4 & a8!


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## HaidenDvim (Sep 13, 2016)




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## ModalRealist (Sep 13, 2016)

HaidenDvim said:


>






For real?

...I can count the number of times I needed to play a gliss, or have seen someone need to play a gliss in an orchestral part, on the fingers of one hand...

...also how is that NextGen? The legato in Hollywood Brass basically sounds like nothing _but _damn glissandi...


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## Rodney Money (Sep 13, 2016)

HaidenDvim said:


>



Now 8DIO is going to "piss" themselves, because they said glissando is a jazz articulation, so they will not have it in their Century Brass.


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## rottoy (Sep 13, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Now 8DIO is going to "piss" themselves, because they said glissando is a jazz articulation, so they will not have it in their Century Brass.


Nobody likes jazz anyway.


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## Leeward (Sep 13, 2016)

When is this being released? Is it literally for the next generation?


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## Rodney Money (Sep 13, 2016)

Leeward said:


> When is this being released? Is it literally for the next generation?


My daughter will enjoy it!


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## NoamL (Sep 13, 2016)

I'd guess they have 7 or 10 of these daily teaser thingies and then they'll unveil the library the day after. They've released 6 so far.


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 13, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> For real?
> 
> ...I can count the number of times I needed to play a gliss, or have seen someone need to play a gliss in an orchestral part, on the fingers of one hand...



It looks like they're going all out for this release. Though I must say, that's a weak argument for exclusion. Portamento legato on strings is pretty rarely used too but when it's used well it's invaluable. Which is why people always bug Mike Patti about it despite his disdain for portamento articulations...


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## ModalRealist (Sep 13, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> It looks like they're going all out for this release. Though I must say, that's a weak argument for exclusion. Portamento legato on strings is pretty rarely used too but when it's used well it's invaluable. Which is why people always bug Mike Patti about it despite his disdain for portamento articulations...



Sure, I wasn't arguing that they shouldn't be included. I was saying that describing them as a "#NextGen" feature is ever so slightly eyebrow-raising. But don't get me wrong: I'm hugely looking forward to, hopefully, parting with my cash for a fantastic library. But as @AlexanderSchiborr said, I'm not entirely sure I dig the advertising strategy. I preferred it when they more sober.

Honestly. To begin with I thought these were parody posts - or at least lampooning other developers... But they appear to be using the style quite seriously.


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## jamwerks (Sep 13, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> ...I'm not entirely sure I dig the advertising strategy. I preferred it when they more sober.


Well, it's got the buzz going, and that's what marketing is supposed to do!


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 13, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> Sure, I wasn't arguing that they shouldn't be included. I was saying that describing them as a "#NextGen" feature is ever so slightly eyebrow-raising. But don't get me wrong: I'm hugely looking forward to, hopefully, parting with my cash for a fantastic library. But as @AlexanderSchiborr said, I'm not entirely sure I dig the advertising strategy. I preferred it when they more sober.
> 
> Honestly. To begin with I thought these were parody posts - or at least lampooning other developers... But they appear to be using the style quite seriously.


Maybe they're just trying to get 8Dio to tremble. 

Troels: "We definitely want to include different section sizes in Century Brass."
Ben: "To be able to build all section sizes between 1 and 8 French Horns makes it NextGen."
Troels: "...Shit."


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## Lawson. (Sep 13, 2016)

I have my fingers crossed for Solo Hrn x4, Hrn a2 x2, Hrn a4 x1, Solo Tpt x3, Tpt a2 x1, Tpt a3 x1, Solo Tb x2, Tb a2 x1, BTb, and Tuba, all with true tongued staccatos and legato (though it appears there are three types of legato which I'm very happy about).

I would be so so so happy if I could write brass lines that had a different person per part. So so happy.


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## NoamL (Sep 13, 2016)

If you have 4 horns separately recorded in position, what would be the advantage of having the a2 or a4 unison ensembles?


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## Lawson. (Sep 13, 2016)

NoamL said:


> If you have 4 horns separately recorded in position, what would be the advantage of having the a2 or a4 unison ensembles?



In case I want them all in unison, or two in unison!  Horns in unison have total timbre changes the more you add. It gets a lot richer, which I don't think 4 horns recorded separately could imitate as well.


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## Zookes (Sep 13, 2016)

NoamL said:


> If you have 4 horns separately recorded in position, what would be the advantage of having the a2 or a4 unison ensembles?


Samples do not coalesce so well like real instruments. 4 soloists is still 4 soloists when recorded.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 13, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> I have my fingers crossed for Solo Hrn x4, Hrn a2 x2, Hrn a4 x1, Solo Tpt x3, Tpt a2 x1, Tpt a3 x1, Solo Tb x2, Tb a2 x1, BTb, and Tuba, all with true tongued staccatos and legato (though it appears there are three types of legato which I'm very happy about).
> 
> I would be so so so happy if I could write brass lines that had a different person per part. So so happy.



This is it, basically. Now... if they could make a script that would switch between solo, a2, and a4 samples as you play, automatically, depending on the number of parts, *and with intelligent legato fading to connect even between these samples... *_now that would *really *be #NextGen. _


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## Lawson. (Sep 13, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> This is it, basically. Now... if they could make a script that would switch between solo, a2, and a4 samples as you play, automatically, depending on the number of parts, *and with intelligent legato fading to connect even between these samples... *_now that would *really *be #NextGen. _



I think I would literally soil my pants.


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## NoamL (Sep 13, 2016)

Berlin Brass will ship with a special keyswitch that calls an Uber to take a top flight horn session player to Teldex to record your part, no matter what time zone you're in

you heard it here first!


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 13, 2016)

NoamL said:


> Berlin Brass will ship with a special keyswitch that calls an Uber to take a top flight horn session player to Teldex to record your part, no matter what time zone you're in
> 
> you heard it here first!


People will still complain about the price.


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## rottoy (Sep 13, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> People will still complain about the price.


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## wpc982 (Sep 13, 2016)

responding to something way back in the comments: if the Spitfire products have locked up the instrument so no editing is possible, then that eliminates them from competition. So far, OT have been good this way -- you can modify the instruments to suit how you use them -- though with each new release they seem to go away from the great standard of the earlier libraries. Let's hope they remember that many of their buyers are techno-nerds, who like the ability to modify to suit!


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## Karl Feuerstake (Sep 13, 2016)

wpc982 said:


> responding to something way back in the comments: if the Spitfire products have locked up the instrument so no editing is possible, then that eliminates them from competition. So far, OT have been good this way -- you can modify the instruments to suit how you use them -- though with each new release they seem to go away from the great standard of the earlier libraries. Let's hope they remember that many of their buyers are techno-nerds, who like the ability to modify to suit!


The only Spitfire products I find 'locked up' to prevent editing are the Legato articulations (and often only in the newer libraries.) Otherwise editing them is possible.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 14, 2016)

Also, it's not quite possible to properly edit OT libraries because Capsule scripting handles velocity curves/crossfades and so on, which is actually adjustable with Spitfire libraries.

So much about "NextGen". LOL.


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## handz (Sep 14, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


>


That guy have a very big arms and very small screens.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 14, 2016)

Finally we get to the sound.


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## Rodney Money (Sep 14, 2016)

It would be funny if while Orchestral Tools is hyping their new brass library, Alex and the Cinematic Studio Series releases both their brass and woodwind libraries leaving us with no more money for Berlin Brass.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 14, 2016)

Also it's quite funny how nothing they say is actually "NextGen", it was all done before by other and various devs.


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## ysnyvz (Sep 14, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Also it's quite funny how nothing they say is actually "NextGen", it was all done before by other and various devs.


"Collecting good features from other devs and putting them all in one library makes it NextGen."
- Hans Müller, Coffee boy at Orchestral Tools


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## NoamL (Sep 14, 2016)

That's the 7th teaser. 

Full list of "Next Gen" Features:

"Having control over the attacks"
"Adding adaptive legato to every articulation"
"Divisi on brass"
"Build all section sizes between 1 and 8 horns"
"The most fluid legato for slurred, re-tongued and fast runs"
"Glissando legato for trombones"
"Biggest library of its kind... but in the end it's simply the sound"
Final guess at the specs -

Horns 1/1/2/4
Trumpets 1/1/3
Trombones 1/1/4
Tuba
Would be surprised if 8dio and CS strayed too far from these specs either.

edit: am I glad to be wrong or what


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## ysnyvz (Sep 14, 2016)




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## Lawson. (Sep 14, 2016)

ysnyvz said:


>




YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!! INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS!!!!!!!!! YESS YESS YES YESS YESS AHHAHHAAHHAHHAAHA


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## Anthony N.Putson (Sep 14, 2016)

Oh god yes! That sounded....MAGNIFICENT!


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## tomaslobosk (Sep 14, 2016)

This will be the bomb, instant buy here.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 14, 2016)

A tad expensive, perhaps, given the lack of a2 samples. Although, in fairness, we have yet to see the articulation list (although, frankly, the programming of those articulations is going to be more important - especially with all of the '#NextGen' nonsense.

The sound is really pretty nice though. I think whether I purchase this or Adventure Brass first will be down to how playable BBR turns out to be. I'm very happy with the playability of BWW and, after a good month or so of concerted tweaking, balancing and patch-building, with BST too. If the kind of sound in the teaser is accomplishable in a fairly natural, playable manner, then I imagine I'll be joining many of you in the queue to buy it.

EDIT: Also, guessing OT felt the pressure from Spitfire's repackaging of their Brass. Given that we've had a week of dodgy photoshop teaser images, followed by a teaser trailer that _*teases pre-ordering *in a further two weeks_ from now! Which certainly makes it sound like the release might be up to a month or more away still.


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 14, 2016)

Damn, looks and sounds incredible. Unfortunately for a poor student like myself, loyalty discount for the expected price of Cinematic Studio Brass will end up being about 1/3 the price of this. As an owner of BWW though, the full Berlin series will be something to strive for in the next years...


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## rottoy (Sep 14, 2016)

Okay, that sounded ridiculously good. Holy shit.


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## NoamL (Sep 14, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!! INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS!!!!!!!!! YESS YESS YES YESS YESS AHHAHHAAHHAHHAAHA


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## HaidenDvim (Sep 14, 2016)

rottoy said:


> Okay, that sounded ridiculously good. Holy shit.


Agree, it blew my socks off...still looking for them!


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## JoeBarlow (Sep 14, 2016)

I didn't think I needed another Brass library, but hearing that clip at the end... Unf. 
Pretty eager to see how this turns out.


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## NoamL (Sep 14, 2016)

Only instead of Mace Windu being thrown out the window, it's PLAY being thrown off my computer

(I kid)


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## Fer (Sep 14, 2016)

It sounds nextgen


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Sep 14, 2016)

That sounded very impressive. Really excited for this - and for the prospect of completing my Teldex template.
Hoping for great playability, proper focus given to soft dynamics, and no blunders like the BWW English horn.


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## Zookes (Sep 14, 2016)

Want to like this library, but unsure still about playability. Very easy to make convincing brass sound given time for this.

Celebrating ONLY when GUI is demonstrated and is not pile of tweaky articulations like Hollywood.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 14, 2016)

Next gen or not. The Sound is indeed a reminisence of a brute force.

I am actually doing on headphones a/b comparisons from that teaser example with some of the examples from the spitfire symphonic brass demos which I think are sounding great as well. So I am torn back and fourth now. I am not at a point where I don´t know which one to go for. @trumpoz @Rodney Money: What do you think, guys?


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## jacobthestupendous (Sep 14, 2016)

Any chance the 599 EUR price already includes VAT?


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## Maestro1972 (Sep 14, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> @trumpoz @Rodney Money: What do you think, guys?



I am curious as to what @Rodney Money has to say as well. I know it's early in the game and they want to announce Berlin Brass with a huge fanfare, but it would have been nice if they built up to it with some "Beautiful Brass". Show me the soft and sexy side of brass and you have my money!


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 14, 2016)

Maestro1972 said:


> I am curious as to what @Rodney Money has to say as well. I know it's early in the game and they want to announce Berlin Brass with a huge fanfare, but it would have been nice if they built up to it with some "Beautiful Brass". Show me the soft and sexy side of brass and you have my money!


Agree. As a former trumpet player, I'd love to hear some sexy-ass-brass as well as brash-crash-wallop. Was said earlier by someone else (apologies, I don't remember who) that brass can also be loud without going to a forceful cuivre style. Would be nice to have that option as well.


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## jamwerks (Sep 14, 2016)

Sounds great. Definitely buy this and SF. HB just might get retired...


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 14, 2016)

Teaser sounds great and I'm sure you will have a lot more information coming to make an informed purchase.


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## Reactor.UK (Sep 14, 2016)

jacobthestupendous said:


> Any chance the 599 EUR price already includes VAT?


If you're inside the EU you will need to add VAT.


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## fgimian (Sep 14, 2016)

I'm extremely excited, but even at the intro price, it's rather expensive. Now the big question is, Spitfire or OT for Brass  .... or wait for Cinematic Series??? ... LIFE IS SO HARD!


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## muziksculp (Sep 14, 2016)

That's a Super Cool OT-Brass Teaser ! and what an Awesome Brass sound


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## Thorsten Meyer (Sep 14, 2016)

fgimian said:


> I'm extremely excited, but even at the intro price, it's rather expensive. Now the big question is, Spitfire or OT for Brass  .... or wait for Cinematic Series??? ... LIFE IS SO HARD!



I wonder about that as well, take advantage of the Spitfire intro price, wait or go for the OT brass.


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## Mundano (Sep 14, 2016)

10 years in the making?... (i mean, next-gen.)


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## fgimian (Sep 14, 2016)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> I wonder about that as well, take advantage of the Spitfire intro price, wait or go for the OT brass.



You know the only answer to this is just to buy them all right? hahaha


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## Saxer (Sep 15, 2016)

Really looking forward to the demos. OT demos are always really fun to listen to!


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 15, 2016)

Individual players is the flexibility I really love with BWW, and with brass it's going to be awesome! A bit too expensive for now, but I'll get this as a Christmas present for me later :D.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Sep 15, 2016)

After all the praise I wonder what happened to initial hype for VSL dimension brass. 
...that was nextgen already, years ago...


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## jamwerks (Sep 15, 2016)

Looks and sounds very promising. A bit surprised about the lack of a (or even maybe two different) a2 patch. Guess they were happy with the sound they were getting with two soloists. Having three discrete trumpets and trombone is really going to spoil us!


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## jamwerks (Sep 15, 2016)

rocking.xmas.man said:


> After all the praise I wonder what happened to initial hype for VSL dimension brass.
> ...that was nextgen already, years ago...


Great idea, just that Brass just doesn't sound good in their Silent-stage imo.


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## Lode_Runner (Sep 15, 2016)

Wow! Just wow!

Now here's hoping for a full Berlin orchestra bundle (just the four main libraries with the timpani) with a generous discount I can hope to afford (30+% off please please please )


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## Mr. Ha (Sep 15, 2016)

This sure is an impressive teaser! The Batman opening titles like opening was really effective and made it feel like something you could see in the movie theatre xD

I'm torn between the spitfire brass and this! Both sound great (judging by the teasers and me having BMl brass) but I'm leaning towards the spitfire library atm!


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## Stiltzkin (Sep 15, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Also, it's not quite possible to properly edit OT libraries because Capsule scripting handles velocity curves/crossfades and so on, which is actually adjustable with Spitfire libraries.
> 
> So much about "NextGen". LOL.



If you're at a stage where you're doing this, it's not hard to write a script to take care of these things manually anyway and just replace capsule. Additionally, the spitfire approach of having the curves on almost all groups tends to use more CPU from what I've tested (assuming you use the full patches rather than split). Having things handled in the script seems to be more efficient, but also orchestral tools still have dynamic range customizable within capsule anyway? The only thing that would be missing would be changing the exact curve, but there's very few situations where you wouldn't want equal power, and if you wanted to disable layers you can do that in capsule too. Seems next gen or at least ahead of the curve to me?


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## EvilDragon (Sep 15, 2016)

Stiltzkin said:


> Additionally, the spitfire approach of having the curves on almost all groups tends to use more CPU from what I've tested (assuming you use the full patches rather than split). Having things handled in the script seems to be more efficient



Nope, it's actually the other way around from my findings. Using as much internal Kontakt features is always going to be more efficient since they are more optimized than doing the same thing with scripting.


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## Stiltzkin (Sep 15, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Nope, it's actually the other way around from my findings. Using as much internal Kontakt features is always going to be more efficient since they are more optimized than doing the same thing with scripting.



Complete apposite to what I'm seeing, I assumed since it was affecting many hundreds of groups regardless of them playing and can choose ignore them via scripting ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 15, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> If you choose the right set of articulations with the Hollywood Orchestra and use an articulation switcher, and set it up in VE Pro with 1 instance per instrument, as I do, you pretty much already can.


That's a lot of "ifs" and no, HB is far from next gen...


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 15, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> For real?
> 
> ...I can count the number of times I needed to play a gliss, or have seen someone need to play a gliss in an orchestral part, on the fingers of one hand...
> 
> ...also how is that NextGen? The legato in Hollywood Brass basically sounds like nothing _but _damn glissandi...


Disagree.
If a trombone library allowed to use the slide in the same way it can physically be used with the instrument, this would be next gen for sure.
All other developers (SF included) have stayed away from the one feature that makes the trombone different from all other brass.
If we could control the speed of the gliss, that feature would be gold!


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## EvilDragon (Sep 15, 2016)

Stiltzkin said:


> Complete apposite to what I'm seeing, I assumed since it was affecting many hundreds of groups regardless of them playing and can choose ignore them via scripting ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Nope. Only groups that are actively played have their modulators applied.


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## jacobthestupendous (Sep 15, 2016)

Reactor.UK said:


> If you're inside the EU you will need to add VAT.


Damn. Well, looks like this will join Berlin Strings in my dream library.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Sep 15, 2016)

A quick challenge for the brass experts: 

Remake in any of today's library the teaser "music"


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## mac (Sep 15, 2016)

Once this is out of the way, hopefully we'll see the start of Metropolis 2


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## dreamnight92 (Sep 15, 2016)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> A quick challenge for the brass experts:
> 
> Remake in any of today's library the teaser "music"




If I have the sheet music I can try to make a make up with Hollywood Brass


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## Shubus (Sep 15, 2016)

Pre-order Sept 30th for 599€ (List Price 799€).
Glad I've been saving up for this.


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## Smikes77 (Sep 15, 2016)

Looking forward to the release and hearing what the brass guys on here think about it.


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## jamwerks (Sep 15, 2016)

Listened the the trailer again several times


Shubus said:


> Pre-order Sept 30th for 599€ (List Price 799€)


Is the start date of the preorder, or the end date?


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## Reactor.UK (Sep 15, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> Listened the the trailer again several times
> Is the start date of the preorder, or the end date?


Start date.


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## Rodney Money (Sep 15, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Next gen or not. The Sound is indeed a reminisence of a brute force.
> 
> I am actually doing on headphones a/b comparisons from that teaser example with some of the examples from the spitfire symphonic brass demos which I think are sounding great as well. So I am torn back and fourth now. I am not at a point where I don´t know which one to go for. @trumpoz @Rodney Money: What do you think, guys?


Orchestral Tools' teaser video was much more effective on a marketable scale than the Spitfire teaser for several reasons. For one thing, the Orchestral Tools' video actually featured their brass section unlike Spitfire which you heard mostly woodwinds and strings with the brass peaking "hear" and there from behind the curtain with a staccato patch... here and a sustained patch... there. The only time you actually heard something somewhat musical and not an effect is when their legato horns play the short main motif and the high tuba also at the end. Also, every time a trumpet is shown in the video you heard violins, and I wonder how many of the effects patches where used where a single key can basically trigger a live recording instead of the regular articulations, and I am wondering if any of the music was augmented with their Phalanx series? I am not judging, or speculating, just wondering, and would love to see a video that features the DAW rendering. The demo sounded great, it's just for me it doesn't feature their library that they are trying to sell. On a personal note, I honestly think it was either pure laziness or forgetfulness for Spitfire not to sample legato transitions for their new solo brass instruments: the trombone and "contrabass" tuba (tuba in Bb?) It reminds me of when Cinesamples produced the Tina Guo Artist library and carelessly forgot to sample the beautiful, expressive legato Tina is known for. Cinesamples heard the complaints and the 'cries of the people,' then literally within the next week Tina was back in the studios recording one of the most beautiful sampled cellos to date, because Cinesamples simply listened to their customers. (Although, still waiting on trombone ensemble legato though, Mike.  I know, I know, you are now working on CineStrings Pro featuring mutes? But you better come up with something soon, people needing brass samples are starting to look other places such as Berlin Brass, Spitfire, and now the future Cinematic Studio Brass coming out this year also. Just saying.)

Orchestral Tools' sets up their teaser beautifully playing to the heartstrings of the modern age DAW composer. The sounds of the clock echo both time and urgency showing their favorite hero instrument the horn first, the serious, "Are you ready?" look from the first trumpet player getting his lips ready while the third trumpet player checking his sheet music sets the tone, we feel and see detail by showing trombone releasing his spit valve and horn adjusting one of their tuning slides, then a riser leads us to the classic silent black screen right before blowing us away with what sounds like a conclusion to a much bigger composition rather than a work within itself, and concludes with someone's mom walking in during the recording session "adding realism." But no teaser is without sin or concern. The video showed the horns with bells up featured in several Mahler's symphonies. I pray that it is just for another layer such as the epic "buzzing" sound, and not added to the crossfade of the regular cc1 or you are going to have some weird stereo effects happening when you go from a lower dynamic to a higher one. Are the horns really going to sound like a horn section of 8 when you mix Horn 1,2,3,4 with Horn a4? Because most of the time with samples these doublings tend to sweeten the sound instead of making them sound bigger, example CineBrass Horn a6 mix with Horn a2 sounds warmer, not bigger.

Trumpets, so many concerns! They are not even playing the same kind of instruments. You have rotary-valved trumpets that play and sound nothing like the others, (good luck getting the legato working with pistons mixed with rotary) C piston-valve trumpets, Bb piston-valve trumpets, what looks to be an E flat trumpet, trying to blend silver brighter instruments to warmer non-sliver plated instruments, it says trumpet 1,2,3 and a3 but you have an extra 4th female trumpet player in there for what? You also see the first trumpet player playing 1920's jazz rocking valve vibrato instead of breath vibrato like modern orchestral players. I hope they are not sampling different notes on different trumpets on the same patch, or you will hear a major difference going up and down your midi controller. If I where to ever sample brass the first thing I would do is make sure they are all playing the same type of horns for a cohesive sound. Yes, each player still has their own individual personality within their own horn, but this is what the professional orchestras and groups such as Canadian Brass do.

Although the demo sounded wonderful, once again we heard nothing soft or beautiful, and also hearing nothing major that another loud brass library could not produce within their own personal library's tone. The loud velocities demo sounded more like Metropolis Ark 1's little brother with the exception of the trombone glissandi. I am actually wondering, with the exception of the trombone glissandi, if this demo could've been easily rendered with Metropolis Ark 1 but sounding even bigger? In the demo in comparison to the trumpets, the trombone glissandi sounded weak barely going to a mf+ in my humble opinion. For a piece such as this, the velocities needed to be more aggressive with an accent on the "landing note." What you do get with this demo teaser though is the sound, attack, tone, and releases of the Orchestral Tool's other libraries, but I am patiently waiting for more demos and walkthroughs to see if it is truly next generation and my new go to brass library. Remembering my earlier remark, "And concludes with someone's mom walking in during the recording session 'adding realism,'" I already hear unwanted noise. I don't mind a little here and there for color, but I so hope we won't get noise that is so blatantly noticeable like Berlin Woodwinds Main Library Piccolo where on the highest note on the highest cc1 127 you can hear the boys probably talking about getting lunch on the release of the sample. So here's the question, "How much 'realism" are we going to get with Berlin Brass? Maybe a trombone player dropping their mute?" "Wait, that's in the expansion, ain't it?"


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## Zookes (Sep 15, 2016)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> A quick challenge for the brass experts:
> 
> Remake in any of today's library the teaser "music"



It is possible, but not plausible.
So much work to imitate this sound, which is why teasers like this must mean nothing - the library creators will work very hard to make this good sound and may spend many months doing this. Such time is a luxury for us.

Only witnessing playability of this library will let me believe this "next gen" quality, if it is there.


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## jamwerks (Sep 15, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> ...The only time you actually heard something somewhat musical and not an effect is...


Nothing musical in there?  That statement says alot about you as a musician!

So you think Paul & Christian are being lazy? Ever been to a orchestral concert and seen different instrument finishes on the brass? All the time!!
Man....


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## Zookes (Sep 15, 2016)

jamwerks said:


>


The best emote !


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## Rodney Money (Sep 15, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> Nothing musical in there?  That statement says alot about you as a musician!
> 
> So you think Paul & Christian are being lazy? Even been to a orchestral concert and seen different instrument finishes on the brass? Man....


Nah, you took it wrong or maybe I said it wrong, lol, I am talking about lyrical lines not just staccato and sustains. I was talking about actual phrases not just effects.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 15, 2016)

@Rodney Money 
Thanks for the forensic analysis! 

Maybe it is too early to ask: But what would you go for? Just from the specs (and what we know so far from the teasers) where do you see the more potential? 
Actually I am bit overflowed with information for today..


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 15, 2016)

What you guys may not know is that this SF demo is using a piece that Andy wrote for one of the BML brass libraries a while back.
It's a great piece, with plenty of music in it
So yea, as far as making new music for their trailer, this doesn't have the impact that a trailer has with bings and booms.
But the music speaks for itself in terms of what tone you get with the lib.
Which is really what matters in the end, isn't it?


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## Rodney Money (Sep 15, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> @Rodney Money
> Thanks for the forensic analysis!
> 
> Maybe it is too early to ask: But what would you go for? Just from the specs (and what we know so far from the teasers) where do you see the more potential?
> Actually I am bit overflowed with information for today..


My pleasure, and I would choose Berlin Brass.


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## camelot (Sep 15, 2016)

I think this teaser is probably highly polished and compressed. You can't even garantee that all we hear is from the new brass collection only. Its purpose is teasing. A walkthrough and a detailed feature list would be much more informative. The price is high, so they should deliver something.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 15, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> My pleasure, and I would choose Berlin Brass.



What I like on the SF is that dark timbre, and this creemy soft touch in the sound. Hard to explain. It has something to do with the room interaction. I guess for this kind of star wars esqued sound sf is def. cool. But yeah..lets see.


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## prodigalson (Sep 15, 2016)

@Rodney Money you frequently lament the lack of softer, mellow tone in sampled brass, correct?

Check out this demo from SF. never goes above mp, I'd say.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 15, 2016)

Aoiichi said:


> Neither me nor Rodney complained that the music wasn't new though. It didn't really show off what the library could do, which is what matters in the end for a product demo.


To someone new to SF, it shows off the tonal quality of the instruments.
It is a teaser, not a walk through.
Maybe put together a bit quickly, still valuable...


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## fgimian (Sep 15, 2016)

I honestly found the Spitfire walkthroughs to demonstrate the same weakness their brass has in Albion ONE, it's not very powerful and doesn't open up in the loud register and it's soaked with the reverb from the hall. The close mic in Spitfire is mono so it doesn't really resolve the problem for the sections.

I'm way more interested in Berlin Brass even though I think the price is honestly way too high (and I don't have to pay VAT).

Can't wait to hear some walkthroughs of it to understand its capabilities and whether or not having a section of 4 horns (instead of 6) will result in a less rich tone that I am craving.

If all else fails, Symphonic Series Brass sounds fantastic


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## shnootre (Sep 15, 2016)

What's tough is having to make the decision immediately. Spitfire is generously allowing edu users to take 40% off the full price these two weeks; OT doesn't allow users to combine intro pricing and edu discounts (unlike SoundIron, as I discovered today to my delight). 

So I'm looking at $400 for Spitfire vs around $670 for Berlin. That's not exactly apples to apples.


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## fgimian (Sep 15, 2016)

shnootre said:


> What's tough is having to make the decision immediately. Spitfire is generously allowing edu users to take 40% off the full price these two weeks; OT doesn't allow users to combine intro pricing and edu discounts (unlike SoundIron, as I discovered today to my delight).
> 
> So I'm looking at $400 for Spitfire vs around $670 for Berlin. That's not exactly apples to apples.



Yeah, I hear ya. I really do wish the OT library was much more affordable as it will cost me $200 AU more than the Spitfire library as well. Meanwhile the Soundiron library is half the price of OT and that's not even on sale


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## Maestro1972 (Sep 15, 2016)

I think we are all hoping that the content within the product justifies the price.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 15, 2016)

Maestro1972 said:


> I think we are all hoping that the content within the product justifies the price.


Yup. I really hope it does. OT libraries are highly regarded for a reason. Mind you, the same could be said about SF. With the difference in price (which is not exactly tiny), I'm expecting to see some impressive feature sets on this library over and above the current standard. Having multiple soloists is wonderful, but I'm still expecting more. #nextgen.


Is that wrong?


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 15, 2016)

No library so far is the ultimate, universal solution.
SF has a beautiful sound, OT has a personality of its own and the most advanced scripting.
Like pianos...etc, having both covers more ground.


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## shnootre (Sep 15, 2016)

For me the cost differential will determine my choice, I think. Don't have the luxury of being able to pick up both. Spitfire IS missing some things that are important to me (like solo stopped and/or muted horn, and multiple mutes for the tpts), but without finding out the details of OT's brass within the window of Spitfire's 40% off edu sale, I think I'm just gonna have to gamble. (not that I really have the extra funds to spring for OT anyway...) If I get the SF I'll have a nicely balanced orchestra - Berlin woods/perc/timp, and Spitfire strings/brass.


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## Zookes (Sep 15, 2016)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> But the music speaks for itself in terms of what tone you get with the lib.
> Which is really what matters in the end, isn't it?


Maybe this is true, and explains the many piles of piano VIs collected to my hard drives.

But this does not prevent my longing for a good playable brass VI !
If it is good to play, I will write for the tone always!

Or maybe until next better-playable brass VI happens.


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## Reactor.UK (Sep 15, 2016)

I find your post unnecessarily personal.



jamwerks said:


> That statement says alot about you as a musician!



Seriously?

From that can I assume you deem yourself more qualified to determine what is musical and what a musician should appreciate.



jamwerks said:


> So you think Paul & Christian are being lazy?



Your question is sweeping, ambiguous and detached in context from what was written.

Whatever the case, I'm simply hoping this thread can remove itself from these types of posts.


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## FriFlo (Sep 16, 2016)

shnootre said:


> So I'm looking at $400 for Spitfire vs around $670 for Berlin. That's not exactly apples to apples.


Mind, that full SF Brass is £749 with the mic expansion included, more expensive then Berlin Brass. But it's really way to early to compare these libraries (price-wise)! I would suggest to first check out, what BB has to offer and then maybe draw any conclusions. BB could be a lot more detailed in articulations than SF Brass and lamenting about a higher price would be irrelevant, then. Even if you compare the reduced SF package with less mic positions ...


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## Mr Greg G (Sep 16, 2016)

I 'm under the impression that I'm the only one who doesn't really care about new strings / brass / perc / winds releases ... We already have high sounding quality tools on the market with a versatile sonic palette. I don't feel the need to have something "new" anymore and the only thing I miss is a good sounding library for solo strings. I find it way quicker and natural to just record myself playing the cello instead of spending hours tweaking a "so-so" cello sound in Cubase like on the outro of the Tron Legacy "Adagio" mockup I posted here 
What do you think you will gain from these new libraries?


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## mac (Sep 16, 2016)

Mr Pringles said:


> I 'm under the impression that I'm the only one who doesn't really care about new strings / brass / perc / winds releases ... We already have high sounding quality tools on the market with a versatile sonic palette. I don't feel the need to have something "new" anymore and the only thing I miss is a good sounding library for solo strings. I find it way quicker and natural to just record myself playing the cello instead of spending hours tweaking a "so-so" cello sound in Cubase like on the outro of the Tron Legacy "Adagio" mockup I posted here
> What do you think you will gain from these new libraries?



True. I hear pieces made 10-15 years ago with software that still blows my mind. I have no doubt that things are always improving, but those gains are progressively marginal. Also, current software libraries far outweigh my abilities anyway. It's like sitting me in a Formula 1 car. Yeah I'll be pretty quick, but I'll probably never take it anywhere near its top speed.

In saying that, I'm still a sucker for shiny new things


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 16, 2016)

And some are just building their libraries so new options matter. If you already have a comprehensive collection that serves your needs, then jolly good.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 16, 2016)

My biggest reason is: Easier to put everything into same space. I already have Berlin Strings and Woodwinds. Of course sound is important too. I'm looking forward to hear demos done both in low and high dynamics. And yes I admit it too, new shiny things are my addiction


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Sep 16, 2016)

Mr Pringles said:


> What do you think you will gain from these new libraries?


For me Berlin Brass will fulfil one thing - hopefully two.
1. It will complete my Berlin template, giving me a consistent Teldex sound across all sections, resulting in less time spent on mindless tweaking of reverbs and placement tools.
2. It will hopefully speed up my workflow. We do have great sounding libs already, only it can be tedious to sculpt convincing lines in them. It's here I hope BB excels.


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## Andy B (Sep 16, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> I wonder how many of the effects patches where used where a single key can basically trigger a live recording instead of the regular articulations, and I am wondering if any of the music was augmented with their Phalanx series?



Hi Rodney,

I wrote the demo in the Spitfire Symphonic Brass teaser which as someone's pointed out was written three years ago to showcase the BML Horns and Low Brass libraries. Just wanted to give you some info. There are no effects used, everything you hear was played in. Phalanx didn't exist when the demo was produced, though if it _had_ included elements of the Phalanx series it wouldn't matter as Phalanx is also included in the new Symphonic Brass. There are more demos on the Spitfire site if you need to do any more research.

Hope that helps,

Andy.


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## Rodney Money (Sep 16, 2016)

Andy B said:


> Hi Rodney,
> 
> I wrote the demo in the Spitfire Symphonic Brass teaser which as someone's pointed out was written three years ago to showcase the BML Horns and Low Brass libraries. Just wanted to give you some info. There are no effects used, everything you hear was played in. Phalanx didn't exist when the demo was produced, though if it _had_ included elements of the Phalanx series it wouldn't matter as Phalanx is also included in the new Symphonic Brass. There are more demos on the Spitfire site if you need to do any more research.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reassurance, my friend, the more information concerning your teaser demo, and that the Phalanx series is included in Symphonic Brass. Like I said earlier, your piece sounded great and now the confirmation of no effects were used is a great testimony to your rendering skills and the illusion of realism. Several people both on this forum and abroad have asked me if I would recommend Spitfire Symphonic Brass with your generous price offering compared to more expensive offerings, and I've told them to, "Go for it."


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## Rodney Money (Sep 16, 2016)

Mr Pringles said:


> I 'm under the impression that I'm the only one who doesn't really care about new strings / brass / perc / winds releases ... We already have high sounding quality tools on the market with a versatile sonic palette. I don't feel the need to have something "new" anymore and the only thing I miss is a good sounding library for solo strings. I find it way quicker and natural to just record myself playing the cello instead of spending hours tweaking a "so-so" cello sound in Cubase like on the outro of the Tron Legacy "Adagio" mockup I posted here
> What do you think you will gain from these new libraries?


You are a string guy, I'm a brass guy. Where you are looking for a solo string library that can express emotion as your live playing, I am looking for the same in a brass library.


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## dcoscina (Sep 16, 2016)

I have a lot of the BML brass libraries but find I seldom use them of late. The Albion series still get a lot of use however. Being a brass player myself (trombone both jazz and classical)I've always sought out these sounds. I'm totally in love with OT Ark because of its clarity. The thing that got me intrigued with the new BB teaser is how clear the low brass are. You can really hear the tuba in there. 

Have to wait it out however because of the upcoming Herrmann library from SF which is something I've been dying to get as soon as they mentioned it months ago. ✌️


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## Rodney Money (Sep 16, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> I have a lot of the BML brass libraries but find I seldom use them of late. The Albion series still get a lot of use however. Being a brass player myself (trombone both jazz and classical)I've always sought out these sounds. I'm totally in love with OT Ark because of its clarity. The thing that got me intrigued with the new BB teaser is how clear the low brass are. You can really hear the tuba in there.
> 
> Have to wait it out however because of the upcoming Herrmann library from SF which is something I've been dying to get as soon as they mentioned it months ago. ✌️


Yes, I noticed that tuba also, and clarity for me has always been a good way to describe Orchestral Tools' sound with common sense instrumentation that simply resembles a live ensemble.

(On a side note that literally just happened: my dad is retired but likes to work to keep active so he decided to work part time at the Academy that I work at. He was talking about hard work to his friends and looked at me as I just finished performing and said in a jokingly loving manner, "Here's the one who just sits on his butt all day." Then I said laughing, "Dad! I just performed in front of 500 people including students, faculty, congressmen, and the NBC news on the piano to accompany the choir singing one of my pieces." Then he said, "Yeah but I bet you did it all on your butt." )


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## dcoscina (Sep 16, 2016)

I just want to clarify that I have nothing but the utmost respect for the folks at Spitfire. Talented composers and delivering terrific products time in and time out. Symphonic Brass is tempting and their loyalty discount is super generous. For me, it's about what I'm using in my own day to day work. I'm just finding that OT gets more use for my needs just as EW Hollywood series is and Cinesamples stuff. 

At this point there really is no bad library out their because all the major developers have taken quality to the next level. It just comes down to personal preference.


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## Geocranium (Sep 16, 2016)

Mr Pringles said:


> I 'm under the impression that I'm the only one who doesn't really care about new strings / brass / perc / winds releases ... We already have high sounding quality tools on the market with a versatile sonic palette. I don't feel the need to have something "new" anymore and the only thing I miss is a good sounding library for solo strings. I find it way quicker and natural to just record myself playing the cello instead of spending hours tweaking a "so-so" cello sound in Cubase like on the outro of the Tron Legacy "Adagio" mockup I posted here
> What do you think you will gain from these new libraries?



You should also consider that many people don't have libraries yet and are looking for a first time purchase. It's easier to swallow the pill of "I don't need this" when you already own a product that can do most of its work. And how I wish I could play the cello for my compositions... I can do a mean sax riff, but I don't remember the last time I needed one of those for symphonic music


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## Rodney Money (Sep 16, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> I just want to clarify that I have nothing but the utmost respect for the folks at Spitfire. Talented composers and delivering terrific products time in and time out. Symphonic Brass is tempting and their loyalty discount is super generous. For me, it's about what I'm using in my own day to day work. I'm just finding that OT gets more use for my needs just as EW Hollywood series is and Cinesamples stuff.
> 
> At this point there really is no bad library out their because all the major developers have taken quality to the next level. It just comes down to personal preference.


Absolutely brother!


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## Saxer (Sep 16, 2016)

Geocranium said:


> ... I can do a mean sax riff, but I don't remember the last time I needed one of those for symphonic music


That sounds familiar to me


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## Shubus (Sep 16, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> My biggest reason is: Easier to put everything into same space. I already have Berlin Strings and Woodwinds. Of course sound is important too. I'm looking forward to hear demos done both in low and high dynamics. And yes I admit it too, new shiny things are my addiction


This a big issue for me also ....I also want every instrument in the same space and preferably in the correct orchestral position. If I don't have these two features, it takes up a lot of processing power to put them there. With a complete set of these Berlin libraries considerably less processing power is required and mainly for non-Berlin libraries.


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## Sebastianmu (Sep 16, 2016)

I don't understand why everyone is complaining about the price without having any proper knowledge of the content first. If their highly appreciated string library costs 800 bucks, what's wrong with having a brass library also around 800 (or 600 intro)? Of course there are cheaper libraries, but there are also cheaper string libraries and there is a reason for OT still being able to sell their stuff in spite of that. It's because of the quality of the product! Before knowing what's inside, it's way too early too presume that it's overpriced. Just my 0.02 €.


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## jacobthestupendous (Sep 16, 2016)

Sebastianmu said:


> I don't understand why everyone is complaining about the price without having any proper knowledge of the content first.


In my case, at least, the complaint isn't about the value on offer for the price; the complaint very simply is that I cannot afford it. It may well be worth ten thousand dollars, making the 600 intro an absolute bargain, but that does not change the fact that I do not have 600 to spend.


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## Zookes (Sep 16, 2016)

Would like to see more companies steal EastWest idea of Composer Cloud. Very affordable and can trial libraries before big purchases, will force such discussion to be obsolete.

Very very important for this common "no refunds" thinking in companies.
Would not so dislike Spitfire as now with opportunity to test the Albion libraries before committing irreversible (and very very regrettable) purchase.


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## NoamL (Sep 16, 2016)

When Hollywood Brass came out it was $800 for 11 deep sampled Kontakt instruments with multi mic positions. Berlin has 14.

Your current choices include:

Wait to hear the competition and eventually buy Berlin Brass at *$900*
Pre-order Berlin Brass between Sep. 30 and ???, and get a "Didn't wait discount" (  ) to *$675*
Wait to hear the competition and eventually get Spitfire Symphonic Brass at *$660*
Get Spitfire Symphonic Brass before October 1 and get a "Didn't wait discount" to *$530 *
Buy 8dio Century Brass at an unknown release date, *unknown price*
Buy Cinematic Studio Brass sometime in late 2016, price is *perhaps near $400?*
Get Chris Hein Orchestral Brass now at *$330*
Get Adventure Brass now at *$300*
Stick with your current libraries for *$0 *
We are really starting to see the competition heat up. Both Spitfire and Orchestral Tools are using classic pressure-selling tactics to get you to part with your money NOW instead of comparison shopping. And you know what? I don't blame them.

*Developing these libraries must be like making a fighter jet. *There's a huge up front cost; the development cycle is so long that the battlefield is full of unanticipated tech by the time you deploy; your product is basically made of trade secrets; your competition only finds out about your spec and features when you start blowing them out of the sky; and the vast majority of customers will only procure you or the competition, not both.

Right now, from my perspective, it comes down to *Berlin Brass vs Cinematic Studio Brass.*

Berlin is the most expensive but it's also the only library that has announced *discrete per player sampling* for the entire brass lineup. That was one of my two holy grails (the other being mellow loud brass).

Spitfire and 8Dio have announced they are taking the same 1/2/Tutti route as EastWest. Specifically, Spitfire Symphonic Brass has 1/2/6 on all sections (merging their "Corps" and "Phalanx" lines), while 8DIo has 1/2/3/6/12 Horns, and 1/2/3/4 Trumpets; they haven't said much about trombones yet but they did announce Cimbasso and Flugelhorn.

Chris Hein also has per-player sampling (in trios) for what it's worth.
*
Cinematic Studio Brass remains the big wild card, especially vis a vis Berlin. *They're the only remaining orchestral range that could announce they have leapt into the "*discrete per player* sampling" pool with Orchestral Tools. Yet if OT's announcement was a surprise, it would be even more of a surprise coming from a library that has established itself in the midrange (or even "no frills") price/features category. So right now, it really feels like a strong bet that Orchestral Tools have established a unique feature for their library. 

So why have any second thoughts about buying Berlin? Well, because CSS was less than half the price of BST and had fewer articulations, yet the sound captured in CSS is so magnificent that I think it's very competitive with BST on a whole range of fronts. 

So right now the agony is "wait to hear BBR vs CSB or pre-order BBR?"


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## jononotbono (Sep 16, 2016)

Geocranium said:


> You should also consider that many people don't have libraries yet and are looking for a first time purchase.



Spot on. I'm slowly building my Jono not Bonophonic orchestra and for me, what an exciting time to enter the Sample world properly. Incredible tools and man, they've come a long way since the days of Edirol Orchestral!


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## rap_ferr (Sep 16, 2016)

The pre-order starts on September 30th, but it goes up to when? Does anybody know?

I'll be travelling in this period and won't be able to buy, but I'd like to take advantage of the discount.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 16, 2016)

NoamL said:


> When Hollywood Brass came out it was $800 for 11 deep sampled Kontakt instruments with multi mic positions. Berlin has 14.
> 
> Your current choices include:
> 
> ...


I'm expecting (however, I don't know and I don't think that anyone who actually knows can say publicly) that cinematic studio brass will be ensemble playing like cinematic studio strings. Wonderful if it has soloists but then the solo strings is a separate Cinematic Studio product.


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## erica-grace (Sep 16, 2016)

NoamL said:


> When Hollywood Brass came out it was $800 for 11 deep sampled Kontakt instruments with multi mic positions.



<clears throat> deep sampled PLAY instruments


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## Rodney Money (Sep 16, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> What I like on the SF is that dark timbre, and this creemy soft touch in the sound. Hard to explain. It has something to do with the room interaction. I guess for this kind of star wars esqued sound sf is def. cool. But yeah..lets see.


I like the dark timbre also, that's why I picked up Spitfire Bones Volume 1 in the first place. If Spitfire had this sell during early July I would've purchased their brass instead of VOXOS. I am looking foward to hearing the lower dynamics of Berlin Brass though, and that will be my real deciding factor.

It's not really hard to explain why you like the room interaction of the brass. In my humble opinion, of all instruments excluding pipe organs, the room in which brass players perform totally effects the sound. I've felt that I've played in about every type of room possible, and to this day my favorite "rooms" are old large churches with wood floors, stone walls, and some wood on the ceilings. The stone helps with reflection and the wood simply puts a warmth to your sound. I've even played at venues that I could almost play chords with myself. Certain instruments such as piccolo trumpet almost beg for that type of acoustics. The worst places I've played have been some dry concert halls that also puts a harsh brightness to your sound, and churches with carpet... Yuck. One of the best places I've ever played in was actually a small recital hall on the campus of NC School of the Arts where on the stage there was simply clarity and definition, but then as the sound traveled throughout the hall it magically blended together into one sound when several people were performing. I wish I could play flugel there again one day.


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## Rodney Money (Sep 16, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> @Rodney Money you frequently lament the lack of softer, mellow tone in sampled brass, correct?
> 
> Check out this demo from SF. never goes above mp, I'd say.



Almost, my friend. I frequently lament the lack of expressive (and I'm not talking about cc11) mellow, darker, fuller, open, rounder tones in sampled brass across the entire dynamic range such as William's "Hymn to the Fallen."


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## Smikes77 (Sep 17, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Almost, my friend. I frequently lament the lack of expressive (and I'm not talking about cc11) mellow, darker, fuller, open, rounder tones in sampled brass. I really love hearing the personalities of the performers in samples, and some of the best "personality filled" samples out there at this moment in brass belong to Cinesamples and even in their other libraries such as Piano in Blue and the Tina Guo Legato Cello. Cinesamples might not have all the articulations in the world, but gosh darn it you can hear that their players are not just recording notes but actually trying to record beautiful performances. Another shout out goes to the VSL Flugelhorn which does include "all the articulations in the world," lol.
> 
> So far to me, the most beautiful mellow trumpet solo tone out there is CineBrass Core's trumpet legato solo. It's the only sample out there that has actually made me try to sound like the tone of the sample! You can be quite expressive in softer dynamics also with this solo if you learn to go back to cc1 for the light, tasteful vibrato on sustained notes. The horn solo in Core, which has personality very Princess Leah-like is also very mellow, as well as the horn a2 which blends beautifully with samples such as Berlin Woodwinds Clarinet Ensemble. The trombone solo in Pro is very mellow in the lower cc's and possesses light portimento in the legato. And then the tuba in Pro is absolutely beautiful, I just wish I had a tad bit more control in vibrato like you can in the lowest cc of trumpet solo in Core. A very beautiful sound I discovered was tuba solo in the lowest dynamics playing a melody in 4ths and 5ths. Though with the exception of the trumpets, as soon as CineBrass reaches mf it starts to turn into a different beast reaching for that darn thin lazar marching band/ drum and bugle corps tone. You do have mellow in CineBrass, but as long as you don't move the modwheel above 25%. I am looking for a brass library that can go ff but still keep a full, rich, warm, noble, "Hymn to the Fallen" sound and not buzz, buzz, buzz, or distorted electric guitar sounding trombone ensemble chords. Is that when CineBrass turns into SinningBrass? Lol.
> 
> ...



Just as a "side salad", what do you make of the embertone trumpet?


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## dcoscina (Sep 17, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Almost, my friend. I frequently lament the lack of expressive (and I'm not talking about cc11) mellow, darker, fuller, open, rounder tones in sampled brass across the entire dynamic range such as William's "Hymn to the Fallen."


You know even though the technology is older, I still find value in Project Sam Orchestral Brass Classic. Some of the sustained patches have a lot of expression to them.


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## dcoscina (Sep 17, 2016)

jacobthestupendous said:


> Any chance the 599 EUR price already includes VAT?


The Canadian dollar sucks so bad that even the intro pricing is going to run me $800+ so I'm out. I can only hope they do another Ark with lower dynamics to get some of these sounds.


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## Rodney Money (Sep 17, 2016)

Smikes77 said:


> Just as a "side salad", what do you make of the embertone trumpet?


Oh yeah, it's very nice and for $30 everyone should own it.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 17, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Oh yeah, it's very nice and for $30 everyone should own it.



+1. Love that VI. First ever purchase (apart from K5 Full itself) and still one of the best purchases.


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 17, 2016)

See... I know that we here at the forum love and appreciate straightforward product releases like that of Cinematic Studio Strings. That being said, Alex if you're reading this, it might be a good idea to have some sort of teaser for Cinematic Studio Brass in this extremely competitive time just to keep people aware that it's an option - and if it's as good as CSS, then no doubt many people will hold off on Berlin and Spitfire.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 17, 2016)

If CSB is anywhere as good as CSS, I'm not even wasting anoher thought on anything else.


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## Rodney Money (Sep 17, 2016)

And if you are looking for a brighter sounding trumpet with dynamics at fff producing a unique timbre at another great price, this might be of interest: http://www.strezov-sampling.com/products/view/Rogue solo trumpet.html


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 17, 2016)

Short info because I remember somebody asked: The introductory price will start at the 30th of september and not end there. And there will be coming some patch walkthrough also.


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## galactic orange (Sep 17, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> And if you are looking for a brighter sounding trumpet with dynamics at fff producing a unique timbre at another great price, this might be of interest: http://www.strezov-sampling.com/products/view/Rogue solo trumpet.html


I was suprised by how good this trumpet sounds for the price. Although limited to "that sound" it's very nice for what it does. I'm thinking of pairing this with the horns. In fact, the Strezov brass bundle might be my next brass purchase even considering all the new libraries coming out. Have you tried the bones?


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## Rodney Money (Sep 17, 2016)

galactic orange said:


> I was suprised by how good this trumpet sounds for the price. Although limited to "that sound" it's very nice for what it does. I'm thinking of pairing this with the horns. In fact, the Strezov brass bundle might be my next brass purchase even considering all the new libraries coming out. Have you tried the bones?


I have not personally tried out any of the brass including the trumpet, but it was one of those libraries I remembered that had a particular sound that could possibly be of some use to others and even me in the future.


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## NoamL (Sep 17, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> If CSB is anywhere as good as CSS, I'm not even wasting anoher thought on anything else.


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## Zookes (Sep 17, 2016)

NoamL said:


>



ominous


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## Pixelee (Sep 17, 2016)

After getting Ark, I really want to take advantage of the preorder, but it's just too expensive for me. Guess I'm going to save for Berlin strings and if the brass is to my liking in the future.


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## dcoscina (Sep 17, 2016)

the sound on this demo still floors me. I might have to look into my finances more to see if I can get this somehow. The clarity and sonoroties are just amazing


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## markleake (Sep 17, 2016)

I think I'm going to pass on buying this. The one short demo they have provided actually sounds very good and realistic. But the price, even at the intro price, just seems a lot for what you get. Personally I can't justify it.

I already have HW Brass, but I'll be looking at buying the SF Symphonic Brass (which sounds very good also, and seems as though it has more useful content for my needs) and probably also the Cinematic Studio Brass when it comes out - depending on contents & sound of course.


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## dcoscina (Sep 18, 2016)

I just got Berlin Brass exp C and its freakin phenomenal. The auto divisi is stellar. Horns sound frankly amazing. I might not be able to afford the full Berlin Brass but ive not doubt it will be a game changer


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## JohnBMears (Sep 20, 2016)

Super Excited To See The Walkthrough for Berlin Brass! 

I assume it will arrive by the 30th since that is when pre-ordering begins?


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## Lawson. (Sep 20, 2016)

JohnBMears said:


> Super Excited To See The Walkthrough for Berlin Brass!
> 
> I assume it will arrive by the 30th since that is when pre-ordering begins?



Oh my gosh I misread that and thought you meant the that walkthrough was released!! I don't know how much more of this emotional rollercoaster my poor heart can take!


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## JohnBMears (Sep 20, 2016)

HAHAHAHAHAH! Sorry Lawson- I'm right there with you! The ups and downs of sample drama!


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 20, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> Oh my gosh I misread that and thought you meant the that walkthrough was released!! I don't know how much more of this emotional rollercoaster my poor heart can take!


Rest assured you are not alone, there are many travelling the road with you. Stay strong. Not sure if that helps at all but, there you go. Does anyone have an idea of how long the pre-order period is likely to be (from past experience)? It could easily be another month or more before this thing is ready to ship.


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## muziksculp (Sep 20, 2016)

It looks like we are entering the Brass Period of Sample Libraries 

We just had Spitfire Symph. Brass released, and now OT Berlin Brass, and possibly Cinmatic Studio Brass will follow soon. WOW ! So many great options for Brass.

Enthusiastically waiting to hear, and watch the OT-Brass Demos, more Teasers, and Walkthrough.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 21, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> I just got Berlin Brass exp C and its freakin phenomenal. The auto divisi is stellar. Horns sound frankly amazing. I might not be able to afford the full Berlin Brass but ive not doubt it will be a game changer


Hey, I'd like to ask a question about the cluster builder patch auto-divisi? Is there a way to separately control dynamics on each horn or would you need to record each horn on a separate track (and is that possible)? Thanks. I think I know the answer from watching, listening and reading but, thought I might ask.

Oh, and does the divisi script only work on the cluster patch or does it also work with the ensemble patches. Can't quite tell that.

One more thing, the falls/risers/doppler/gliss etc patches that have a slow and fast option switch, is/can this be tempo matched in any way? Sorry for all the questions. If you have time to answer, that'd be great.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Sep 21, 2016)

With all this next gen stuff talking and individual player sampling, VSL did already their Dimension Brass.....
they were pre next-gen?


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Sep 21, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> With all this next gen stuff talking and individual player sampling, VSL did already their Dimension Brass.....
> they were pre next-gen?



They had the right idea. Now OT is taking a stab at it, hopefully making it sound good this time.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 21, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> With all this next gen stuff talking and individual player sampling, VSL did already their Dimension Brass.....
> they were pre next-gen?



Isn't it like Nokia and Apple? Nokia had touch screen phones before Apple, but Apple marketed iPhone as a revolutionary phone. There's always a new nextgen solution, which packs best pieces of each previous solutions to an easy to use interface and developes them further, and is marketed as nextgen, which is not always a bad thing, is it?


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## Silence-is-Golden (Sep 21, 2016)

Although Dimension strings seems more widely used (and indeed it sounds very good in my view) Dimension Brass seems to not be used so much, and this is because of the sound as I read from you?

I once owned Dim Strings but it was too demanding on my then iMac, mainly if I wanted to use the separate desks/players from all sections it starts to become more demanding.
And indeed I don't hear many members here speaking of their use of Dim Brass.

Well, back to OT, it does sound all appealing, and with the upcoming Brass libs from various sources\developers (as NoamL gave a nice overview of ) 
we need to be careful not to dry up our wallets and credit cards to the point that we need to eat dry bread and drink water for months to come.


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## FriFlo (Sep 21, 2016)

The big difference with Dimension Brass is, that it is recorded in the silent stage vs Teldex. While I am not totally against it, the silent stage is not the best choice for ensemble brass IMO. I like the dimension strings a lot, but the Dimension Brass I did not like so much, especially with the mutes you hear the missing room, that no reverb (also not MIR) can quite replace. These days, VSL is still useful for its richness of available instruments and articulations, mostly for strings, woodwinds and other solos. But I wouldn't try to accomplish a full orchestral body with VSL alone anymore, as you get better results easier when mixing with libraries recorded on stage. The same goes for Samplemodeling, by the way. I love both VSL and Samplemodeling, especially the later does make things possible, that no other library can achieve. 
The Berlin series does A very good job at providing a well rounded stage sound and at the same time a detailed set of articulations I miss in most other libraries. I am very much looking forward to this release and the (hopefully soon) following brass mutes!


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## dcoscina (Sep 21, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Hey, I'd like to ask a question about the cluster builder patch auto-divisi? Is there a way to separately control dynamics on each horn or would you need to record each horn on a separate track (and is that possible)? Thanks. I think I know the answer from watching, listening and reading but, thought I might ask.
> 
> Oh, and does the divisi script only work on the cluster patch or does it also work with the ensemble patches. Can't quite tell that.
> 
> One more thing, the falls/risers/doppler/gliss etc patches that have a slow and fast option switch, is/can this be tempo matched in any way? Sorry for all the questions. If you have time to answer, that'd be great.


great questions. I haven't had a lot of time to explore but here is what I gather so far:

1. the cluster builder/auto divisi script only seems applicable on the non-ensemble patches
2. the dynamics from the mod wheel affect all 4 horns in the same range- not sure you can create different dynamic ranges within each of the 4 horns
3. I think there is a tempo mapped option but I haven't really dug into it yet

* sorry for not being too specific but I've had a few re-writes to do on a very short time line for a commercial I'm scoring and have been busy with that the past few days. I plan to dig into this library once I'm done.


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## dcoscina (Sep 21, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Although Dimension strings seems more widely used (and indeed it sounds very good in my view) Dimension Brass seems to not be used so much, and this is because of the sound as I read from you?
> 
> I once owned Dim Strings but it was too demanding on my then iMac, mainly if I wanted to use the separate desks/players from all sections it starts to become more demanding.
> And indeed I don't hear many members here speaking of their use of Dim Brass.
> ...



I own Dimension Brass. like eveything VSL, it's a smart VI but takes a bit of work. And the sound is dry. I love OT stuff because of the room space and how it was recorded- very detailed. It's like a marriage of VSL and Spitfire. To my ears, it sounds the best. I was stuck playing trombone in a brass section for a decade in my younger days and so I'm very picky about brass and a bit of a brass library whore- I will buy almost any horn library out there (does that make me "horny"?). 

I could get a terrific rebate on Spitfire Symphonic Brass because I own quite a few of their BLM libs but I want to wait to hear what Berlin Brass sound like in full. They would be a very expensive library only because the Canadian currency is atrocious. Otherwise, an intro price of $599 Euros isn't really very expensive for the size and quality that the library purports.


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## Zookes (Sep 21, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> but the Dimension Brass I did not like so much, especially with the mutes you hear the missing room, that no reverb (also not MIR) can quite replace.


Would maybe think VSL has good research for room simulations correcting this.

Lacking in this area does not seem so good for business for them.


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## jamwerks (Sep 21, 2016)

Zookes said:


> Would maybe think VSL has good research for room simulations correcting this.
> 
> Lacking in this area does not seem so good for business for them.


That's undoubted why they recently spent millions of dollars on a new scoring stage. There's no better room emulation than the real thing!


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## FriFlo (Sep 21, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> That's undoubted why they recently spent millions of dollars on a new scoring stage. There's no better room emulation than the real thing!


Exactly! It is not doable with current technology reasonable computer power. Neither convolution reverb (MIR) nor the best of algorithmic reverbs, nor any other processing combination can really replace the recording of instruments in a great sounding room. Legato scripting seems to work better with dryer samples, on the other hand! So, it seems you always loose or gain somewhere, regardless of which library you choose. Hence, the combination of different ones is still the way to achieve the very best.


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## jamwerks (Sep 21, 2016)

And it's not so much imo about technology being able to add things. It's about what is there that you can't get rid of. The old VSL Silent Stage is quite small, and actually not that dry (reverb time around 1 second, I've forgotten the exact time that VSL has themselves published). So the samples come with backed-in ER's, or rather very-early ER's (kind of a closet effect), at a relatively high level.

To my ears that less of a problem with WW's (I still use VSL WW's with MirX), but more so of a problem with louder instruments (brass, percussion).

I hoping that VSL will have some new brass soon, recorded in their new stage!


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 21, 2016)

I think and hope so..In the recent few months I have seen a lot of people trying to get rid of their VSL Products regardless if that is strings, brass or even Woodwinds. I own a bit of VSL Products but I never found their string and brass libraries somehow convincing sounding, too sterile for my own taste.

I believe the guys at VSL do great stuff but it doesn´t suit for my kind of "philosophy" how orchestral brass and strings should sound like. I don´t think that recorded dry instruments ecpsecially brass / strings and then putting them with alg. Reverbs and spatial placement gets the same sound like a library recorded in the right scoring stage with the recorded seating.

CS Brass is in development, but the release date is not totally clear, hopefully end of the year, how I understand that (also support).

Anyways this thread is about OT Brass teasing: OT is working on a walkthrough hopefully released soon (I know that from their support). I am really looking forward to this while sitting on the coach and eating popcorn and getting an aural erection.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 21, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> And it's not so much imo about technology being able to add things. It's about what is there that you can't get rid of. The old VSL Silent Stage is quite small, and actually not that dry (reverb time around 1 second, I've forgotten the exact time that VSL has themselves published). So the samples come with backed-in ER's, or rather very-early ER's (kind of a closet effect), at a relatively high level.
> 
> To my ears that less of a problem with WW's (I still use VSL WW's with MirX), but more so of a problem with louder instruments (brass, percussion).
> 
> I hoping that VSL will have some new brass soon, recorded in their new stage!



Jamwerks has it absolutely right here. That's the crux of the issue. Until VSL deals with this it will reflect heavily on the sales of their sample libraries. Things have moved on since 2003. 

Having agreed with this, I still use VSL WW first - with MIR as with Jamwerks. 

However, VSL Brass still has the best legato of any out there. The cornet (sounds more like a good trumpet than almost anything out there) and the piccolo trumpet are most notable and unique. Note: I have all the Spitfire, HB, CineBrass, OT Ark and Exp C, 8Dio Cage and Black, Sample Modeling, etc. I just fill in with a limited amount of VSL Brass here and there. 

VSL Dimension Brass got re-sold early on. VSL missed on that one. 

We'll see what OT can come up with. No one brass lib is going to do it all. If they have some uniquely good voices here and there it'll be sufficient. Just being a stable mate to their strings isn't a good enough reason for me. I've been making do with libs recorded in diverse rooms for years. I've learned enough to handle it. 

.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 21, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> great questions. I haven't had a lot of time to explore but here is what I gather so far:
> 
> 1. the cluster builder/auto divisi script only seems applicable on the non-ensemble patches
> 2. the dynamics from the mod wheel affect all 4 horns in the same range- not sure you can create different dynamic ranges within each of the 4 horns
> ...


Cheers. That's much appreciated.


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## Zookes (Sep 22, 2016)

Jack Weaver said:


> No one brass lib is going to do it all.


Outside of limitations of budgets and labor, must ponder why this is so.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 22, 2016)

Zookes said:


> Outside of limitations of budgets and labor, must ponder why this is so.


in short:
- quality of players and their tone in each individual section
- sound of room, number of mics
- concept and realization of editing samples

each one of these topics deserve a much, much longer explanation. no time now. hope this suffices temporarily.

.


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## NoamL (Sep 22, 2016)

@Zookes I've thought about this, it's a *graph problem. *

An articulation repeating itself is pretty simple, but transitioning between articulations with different characters is hard. This is where the dreaded "articulation mosaic" or "patchwork quilt" effect comes in if your articulations don't work with each other.

e.g. you're playing some pattern of alternating staccatos and staccatissimos, which works fine, and you want to end the phrase with a sfzp-cresc sample. Great. The problem is the sfzp-crec sample just doesn't work in that spot musically, it was recorded with a different musical character or use in mind. If you use it, it sticks out like a sore thumb. So although the library has 3 articulations, you find out that you can't actually use all three together.

This problem grows exponentially, as follows -

Suppose you are a developer and you are creating a library with three articulations A B C. There are six possible "articulation transitions":

AB AC
BA BC
CA CB

So if you have the following musical phrase:

A A A B B A A C C C C B B C C A

then all of the underlined transitions have to work musically -

A A *A B* *B A* *A C* C C* C B* *B C C A
*
Already a tall order.

But let's say the consumer demands 6 articulations - A B C D E F. Now you have:

AB AC AD AE AF
BA BC BD BE BF
CA CB CD CE CF
DA DB DC DE DF
EA EB EC ED EF
FA FB FC FD FE

_thirty_ articulation switches. So by doubling your sample pool you _*quintupled*_ the number of switches between articulations that have to work musically or they stick out as fake.

It's infeasible for developers to get _all_ of these mosaic patterns to work for _all _musical characters. And that's why different libraries excel at different kinds of musical phrases. 

BTW I believe this is a big reason why we got great string libraries before great brass libraries. For strings the articulations are really different playing modes or techniques, for brass they are different ways of articulating or shaping notes in a phrase.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 22, 2016)

NoamL said:


> @Zookes I've thought about this, it's a *graph problem. *
> 
> An articulation repeating itself is pretty simple, but transitioning between articulations with different characters is hard. This is where the dreaded "articulation mosaic" or "patchwork quilt" effect comes in if your articulations don't work with each other.
> 
> ...



Adventure brass does a good job of dealing with that problem (if I understand you correctly). The result is a very playable vi. Its possible weaknesses are:
1.it may not cover the full gamut of styles, though it can do quite a lot and
2.it is only ensemble patches. No solos.


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## NoamL (Sep 24, 2016)

So no more news on this, huh? the preorder starts in a few days, I wonder when we will hear demos...


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## rap_ferr (Sep 24, 2016)

NoamL said:


> So no more news on this, huh? the preorder starts in a few days, I wonder when we will hear demos...


The worst thing is that I have to decide to buy Spitfire Brass or hold and buy Berlin Brass until Monday because I'll be out of town. To wait for Berlin Brass with no further info is really a shot in the dark.

Unfortunately I can't afford both.


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## Zookes (Sep 24, 2016)

rap_ferr said:


> The worst thing is that I have to decide to buy Spitfire Brass or hold and buy Berlin Brass until Monday because I'll be out of town. To wait for Berlin Brass with no further info is really a shot in the dark.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't afford both.


I say this depends most on familiarity and preference with developers.

You like the Spitfire way of things? You will have no disappointment from such purchase. You like OT Berlin? Same also. Choose one you most like.

Now you are maybe not concerned with stylistic preference? Flexibility is most important and you are confident with mixing abilities for merging any libraries together? Maybe OT can deliver this better, I think.

But thinking if I owned already many Spitfire libraries, and did not own OT, I maybe would purchase Spitfire for cohesive completeness anyway.


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## rap_ferr (Sep 24, 2016)

Zookes said:


> I say this depends most on familiarity and preference with developers.
> 
> You like the Spitfire way of things? You will have no disappointment from such purchase. You like OT Berlin? Same also. Choose one you most like.
> 
> ...


Thanks!

From Spitfire I only own Chamber syrings, Albion one, iceni and hz01. No regrets so far!

From orchestra tools, only metropolis Ark 1. No regerts either. I was plannig though to buy Berlin strings.


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## Lawson. (Sep 25, 2016)

rap_ferr said:


> Thanks!
> 
> From Spitfire I only own Chamber syrings, Albion one, iceni and hz01. No regrets so far!
> 
> From orchestra tools, only metropolis Ark 1. No regerts either. I was plannig though to buy Berlin strings.



Berlin Strings is awesome. You won't regret it!

[Note: I have received free products from OT]


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## Batrawi (Sep 25, 2016)

Sorry guys, a nooby off-topic question.. What are the "a2", " a4" etc.. instruments/patches that everyone is talking about in this thread? How they are meant to be used in a mix?


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## ModalRealist (Sep 25, 2016)

Batrawi said:


> Sorry guys, a nooby off-topic question.. What are the "a2", " a4" etc.. instruments/patches that everyone is talking about in this thread? How they are meant to be used in a mix?



It means multiple players recorded together in unison. a2 = 2 players; a4 = 4 players; etc.


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## jamwerks (Sep 25, 2016)

Cool that OT has gone the multiple soloists route, where others haven't. Gives us even more sonic options!


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## JohnBMears (Sep 27, 2016)

Any new updates? Walkthroughs? Preorder starts Friday?


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Sep 28, 2016)

I assume a walk-through video - and hopefully some demos - will be ready for when the preorder starts. Still pretty excited for this one, so I really hope the preorder period will not be a month or more.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 28, 2016)

Rasmus Hartvig said:


> I assume a walk-through video - and hopefully some demos - will be ready for when the preorder starts. Still pretty excited for this one, so I really hope the preorder period will not be a month or more.


Agreed. I feel your pain.
I definitely want some more demos or a walk through. If that's on 1st September then so be it.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Sep 28, 2016)

I got mail today from 
*ORCHESTRAL TOOLS*


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## Thorsten Meyer (Sep 28, 2016)

Orchestral Tools has been sending out letters to announce their new brass libraries. Look for the postman and a letter for you.


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Sep 28, 2016)

Ohhhh. Shiny!

So it looks like the release date is october 19th or 20th. I can wait that long (he furiously tried to convince himself).


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## Thorsten Meyer (Sep 28, 2016)

Rasmus Hartvig said:


> Ohhhh. Shiny!
> 
> So it looks like the release date is october 19th or 20th. I can wait that long (he furiously tried to convince himself).



Yes, letter says "you are welcome to preorder ".... between Sep 30 and Oct 19


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 28, 2016)

Hells horses, OT's gone OTT.
Not sure this was needed. Was it? Really?
Would rather just see the "money".

(not you Rodney, sorry).


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## Rodney Money (Sep 28, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Hells horses, OT's gone OTT.
> Not sure this was needed. Was it? Really?
> Would rather just see the "money".
> 
> (not you Rodney, sorry).


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## NoamL (Sep 28, 2016)

Waste of money (not you, Rodney!). BB is on my radar because BWW is excellent. CSB is on my radar because CSS is excellent. In the end that's all that matters. I'll be eagerly anticipating both libraries regardless of how much or little marketing they do. In other words, to be blunt - OT should take a page from CS and just drop the thing when it's ready.


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## Rodney Money (Sep 28, 2016)

NoamL said:


> Waste of money (not you, Rodney!). BB is on my radar because BWW is excellent. CSB is on my radar because CSS is excellent. In the end that's all that matters. I'll be eagerly anticipating both libraries regardless of how much or little marketing they do. In other words, to be blunt - OT should take a page from CS and just drop the thing when it's ready.


Yeah, drop it and make it go boom.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 28, 2016)

Perhaps they could have not engaged in such a pointless paper-wasting exercise, and deducted the cost of designing, printing and posting this waste of dead tree from the somewhat exorbitant cost of the library. /cynicism


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## Saxer (Sep 28, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> Perhaps they could have not engaged in such a pointless paper-wasting exercise, and deducted the cost of designing, printing and posting this waste of dead tree from the somewhat exorbitant cost of the library. /cynicism


Too much modal and realistic approach... wasting is the nature of art!


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## dcoscina (Sep 28, 2016)

I think it's a cool idea. Wonder if I will get one? Not sure how many Canadians are here but I think we get to corner the market on bitching about the price because of our weak Canadian dollar- but I'm not going to. I honestly think 599 Euros is probably fair pricing for what this library purports. If you cannot afford it, oh well. I probably cannot unless I finally get paid for a few ads I did a month back.... 

Then again, I remember when great sounding sample libraries went for above $1000.....


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## markleake (Sep 29, 2016)

Aoiichi said:


> Well, it's the 30th now, so I presume we'll see a torrent of information and pre-orders opening within the next 12 hours or so. Hopefully. Spitfire's promo ends in about... 30 hours now, and I'd like to be able to weigh both against each other.


Too late for me, Spitfire Brass is go!


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 29, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> I think it's a cool idea. Wonder if I will get one? Not sure how many Canadians are here but I think we get to corner the market on bitching about the price because of our weak Canadian dollar- but I'm not going to. I honestly think 599 Euros is probably fair pricing for what this library purports. If you cannot afford it, oh well. I probably cannot unless I finally get paid for a few ads I did a month back....
> 
> Then again, I remember when great sounding sample libraries went for above $1000.....


Australia not so good on currency cross rates either. As you say, no point complaining though. I'm expecting this to be an impressive library.


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Sep 30, 2016)

[tapping fingers on table impatiently]


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 30, 2016)

Rasmus Hartvig said:


> [tapping fingers on table impatiently]



F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5...


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 30, 2016)

gooood evening OT guys, wake up... naaa? Late to bed today? It's 30th September and 18:45 in Germany. (sneaking into the OT studio and and playing a french horn marcato note at vel 127... ok, they're awake. Thank me later.)


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 30, 2016)

Wow, they did it! My waking action was worth it!


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## dcoscina (Sep 30, 2016)

That chorale at the beginning of the video was incredible. Pardon me as I skip out to rob a local bank to buy this..


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 30, 2016)

180 GB compressed, 330 GB uncompressed. Though if any library had a reason to take up that much space, it'd be this one. Looks like they smashed it out of the park. Though I'll probably have to wait until Christmas to buy it because my college campus only allows me to use 150GB of up/down per month


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## dcoscina (Sep 30, 2016)

Yeah I love Sascha's music. Terrific sense of harmony and phrasing.


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## Andrajas (Sep 30, 2016)

Wow, sounds so good!


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## Saxer (Sep 30, 2016)

Really fun stuff and excellent sound.


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## Shubus (Sep 30, 2016)

Sascha's intro video is absolutely stunning. That we hearing those samples raw and unprocessed with such clarity is mind blowing and will clearly give us massive flexibility. My SSD's are hungry for this.


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## NoamL (Sep 30, 2016)

Incredible. I'm listening at the airport on little headphones and I can still hear this is nuts.

here is what leaps out at me as a longtime HWB user -

*PARTWRITING! *Even just copying midi data, the difference is so clear between 1Hn x4 and 4 Hns. This is a breakthrough. Writing out 4 parts will be worth it! Goodbye "EPIC" brass pads, hello partwriting!
When the horn chorale went from unisons to separate parts seamlessly while maintaining the same richness and width - my heart fluttered! Good luck doing that with any other VI!
The variety of microphone positions & the fact that the Deccas alone sound great, but then my mind was blown again by the intimacy and tight control of the spot mics. With HWB Gold the single mic means you're often at the mercy of EastWest sound.
The philosophy of giving us unprocessed and clear samples and letting us color them. It's always been weird to me that other developers advertise the absence of this as a feature.
The horns sound great, but so do the trumpets, this is an area where I always struggle with HWB.
"It's not enough to record a variety of short articulations, they have to work with each other musically, and at all different dynamics." This is the biggest pitfall of HWB for me. The very small example we heard sounds promising.
*RE-tongued legato!!!* I raised an eyebrow at that unrealistic "all slurs" horn passage but then as he started throwing in re-tongued legato and breaths, the realism level shot through the roof.
FLEXIBILITY! (within reason) The musical example to demonstrate the mic positions was far from orchestral writing. Still worked!
Potential downsides of the library / areas where I'm still curious

*Fast repetitions and varieties of note starts & short articulation-matching. *We saw one small example, I'd like to see more.
Dynamics. The very low and high ends were shown off throughout the video but I'd like to hear some transitions (not using the swell patches).
Trombones - we heard very little of them, would love to hear more.

And of course I want to hear everything @Rodney Money @trumpoz and others have to say!!


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## jacobthestupendous (Sep 30, 2016)

Looks like Sascha hasn't updated Kontakt yet.


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Sep 30, 2016)

Just... wow...


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## cadenzajon (Sep 30, 2016)

In the list of patches for each instrument, it looks like the "effects" include:
- Repetitions 16th Short
- Repetitions 16th Long
- Repetitions Triplets Short
- Repetitions Triplets Long
- Crescendo Short
- Crescendo Long
- Fortepiano
- Swell Short
- Swell Long
- Trills

Are the repetitions likely to be host-synced to tempo, or pre-recorded tempi? Is there anything like this to compare in BWW or BST?


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## benmrx (Sep 30, 2016)

YES!!!!! This seems to be exactly what I was hoping for! To this day, Berlin Woodwinds is my favorite orchestral library because it simply allows me to build up the sections as I see fit for a particular project. This is an instant buy for me. The brass sounds absolutely amazing to my ears, it has (IMO) the best scripting shell of any orchestral library (capsule), and the ability to create my own sections. 

The only thing that bums me out about the entire Berlin series is that the strings didn't follow the same concept as the woodwinds and brass regarding section sizes.


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## fgimian (Sep 30, 2016)

My mind is officially blown and bravo!!!! for capturing full sounding close stereo mics. Spitfire, are you listening?


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## dreamnight92 (Sep 30, 2016)

Ohi ohi, this one killed the previous brass libraries, really stunning!


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## Zookes (Sep 30, 2016)

Oh wow.
OK. I like this now very much.

Must be cautious tho. Need more info.

EDIT:
No workflow innovation. Sigh.
It makes good sound, but this I thought also of HB. So much tweaking still to get that good sound, it seems.


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## HaidenDvim (Sep 30, 2016)

Zookes said:


> Oh wow.
> OK. I like this now very much.
> 
> Must be cautious tho. Need more info.
> ...




You do realize that everything you heard was out of the box with no setup. OT always demos everything you hear with no tweaking and no effects. This is how it is played out of the box.


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## Hat_Tricky (Sep 30, 2016)

That video actually surpassed my almost unrealistic hype levels. Absolutely incredible. Instant buy (as soon as I can get the funds)

Glad I waited it out for a Brass Library (only have the brass from Albion ONE, Albion 1 legacy, and 8dio's Majestica). That opening piece and the re-tongued legato blew my mind. The clarity, the close mics, the range....the DEPTH of the 4 horns in particular. This is how it SHOULD sound!!! Amazing!

The ONLY downside - with all the amazing sound, I half expected some crazy "breath" scripting that would put in every players (different samples) breath sample when Sascha put gaps in the horn line showcasing the legatos LOL!!!

This, of course, is a joke (kind of haha) but seeing how incredible this library is - it was like expecting Sidney Crosby to break Wayne Gretzky's hockey records...impossible. But in the back of your mind you almost think it could happen, based on how good what you're currently seeing is. THATS how amazing this library looks to me.

Bravo, congrats, and I hope the whole Orchestral Tools team gets some much needed rest. I can picture them working to the bone to get this done, pre-orderable, and then Sascha and whoever else helped making this video for the 30th.

I am officially on could 9 with how great this sounds!!!!!


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## Hat_Tricky (Sep 30, 2016)

Oh and, fingers crossed for a Euphonium in a future expansion!!!


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## tack (Sep 30, 2016)

NoamL said:


> When the horn chorale went from unisons to separate parts seamlessly while maintaining the same richness and width - my heart fluttered! Good luck doing that with any other VI!


Well, I share your enthusiasm and it truly did sound great, but this isn't exactly unheard of. Sample Modelling gives you four separate horn patches. Sure, they are shaped through IRs, but the point is you can do mockups this way even today.


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## Zookes (Sep 30, 2016)

HaidenDvim said:


> You do realize that everything you heard was out of the box with no setup. OT always demos everything you hear with no tweaking and no effects. This is how it is played out of the box.


It is not played there, it is sequenced.
In this video I see some 5 patches loaded creating one line for one instrument. Keyswitching and expression maps only, nothing intelligently scripted or controllable using CC.

Very very good sound is here, but is not so playable.
Waiting still for this holy grail of playability and good sound. But maybe I must think more.

Maybe I will rest assured these articulations are consistent, maybe not so much to repair in post like HB?
Must further measure potential time savings, it is maybe a worthwhile investment like this.

Still very disappointed it is not so playable as I wish, but is not bad by any standard.


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Sep 30, 2016)

Zookes said:


> Still very disappointed it is not so playable as I wish, but is not bad by any standard.



Have you actually played the thing?


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## BachN4th (Sep 30, 2016)

Really pleased to see the option of extending the range of each instrument. A lot of sample developers will not sample the full standard range of some instruments, particularly in their legato patches - flutes and piccolos that top before high C, etc. I understand why it's done, the highest and lowest ranges can be more difficult to play (and thus sample) with consistent results, but sometimes the these sample developers really truncate the standard used upper range of some instruments (Mostly, I've found this in flute, piccolo, and clarinets). Would like to see this feature extended to Berlin woodwinds, and I'm sure it will be. (Or could possibly already be there?)

For the brass, bring able to bring the tubas down to some of the pedal tones is very useful. So bravo, OT... and this library sounds great, but is completely out of my meager budget right now.


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## SymphonicSamples (Sep 30, 2016)

Indeed it sounds incredible and superbly thought out. Certainly the next level Brass library clearly created by musicians for musicians with a powerful yet simple to use interface holding this beast together. Finally part writing without shortcuts. The only issue I have is the choice to either swim in the beautiful ocean of Brass or not eat for a month or 2. The Berlin Diet


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## Jorgakis (Sep 30, 2016)

The sections is the thing. I really try to orchestrate as realistic as possible , having 4 horns , 3 trombones , is something I waited for.
Too bad I just managed how to make HB sound pretty good as well. I don't think it's that far behind soundwise. But the real sections is really the big deal.... how do I gather the money now


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## mac (Oct 1, 2016)

Zookes said:


> It is not played there, it is sequenced.
> In this video I see some 5 patches loaded creating one line for one instrument.



Which means that if we wanted true 4x horn unison for that part, we'd have to load up 20 articulations! My machine is sweating just thinking about it 

It does sound brilliant though.


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## Zookes (Oct 1, 2016)

Rasmus Hartvig said:


> Have you actually played the thing?


No, this design you can see is obvious by the video.

Many articulations. Keyswitches. Many lanes.

This does not say to me "playable".
I have already this workflow. It is tiresome like my complaining of it.

Only where I am using SampleModeling is this trouble alleviated.


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Oct 1, 2016)

Many lanes is one way of working that some prefer. You could do one lane with keyswitches instead - like so many other libraries.

No, it won't be as playable as Sample Modeling, but if the adaptive legato works like in Berlin Strings, you'll do a lot less keyswitching.

In any case, we haven't seen a demo of its playability, so I think it's a bit premature to pass judgment on that aspect of the library. It seems there will be more walkthrough videos, so I'm hoping for a more live demonstration next time.


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## ModalRealist (Oct 1, 2016)

I always use one artic per track, because often careful layering creates the right sound. I built something close to a "playable/performance" patch with BST using this method. At some point maybe I'll post up the method I used (it's not revolutionary or anything).


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## tabulius (Oct 3, 2016)

I agree all the praise and criticism. Sound is really great and I like the solo players idea. The amount of keyswitches and controller automation worries me a bit. On Orchestral Tool's defense the capsule is really nice tool to customize the workflow so we should be able to layer for example some shorts to legato patches to make those "one patch performance tracks". Still we need to edit controllers to get the retongued legato activated.

I like how they didn't process the recordings that much, but that means there are some mixing to be done. I also feel that my old computer can't handle this library with few mic positions AND all the solo instruments so I might have to get a new slave for this. The voice count must rise pretty quickly.

I'm really tempted. Would like to hear more demos and walkthroughs.


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## SoNowWhat? (Oct 3, 2016)

tabulius said:


> I agree all the praise and criticism. Sound is really great and I like the solo players idea. The amount of keyswitches and controller automation worries me a bit. On Orchestral Tool's defense the capsule is really nice tool to customize the workflow so we should be able to layer for example some shorts to legato patches to make those "one patch performance tracks". Still we need to edit controllers to get the retongued legato activated.
> 
> I like how they didn't process the recordings that much, but that means there are some mixing to be done. I also feel that my old computer can't handle this library with few mic positions AND all the solo instruments so I might have to get a new slave for this. The voice count must rise pretty quickly.
> 
> I'm really tempted. Would like to hear more demos and walkthroughs.


Yup. I'd be lying if I said I'm not excited by this, just listened (again) to Sasha's overview video. However, I'd also like to see a little more of what's in the box. There's a few artics that Sasha didn't demonstrate (though they were in some of the midi samples), and I'm expecting they'll demonstrate them some time before the pre-order period is finished.


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## tabulius (Oct 3, 2016)

It would be nice to hear more realtime playing with the patches. I thought I saw an "auto divisi, #nextgenbrass" hype somewhere but I must have imagined it - that would be cool tho. Maybe a future update? It would be great to have one horn track with all the four solos playing unison and split automatically.


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## SoNowWhat? (Oct 3, 2016)

tabulius said:


> It would be nice to hear more realtime playing with the patches. I thought I saw an "auto divisi, #nextgenbrass" hype somewhere but I must have imagined it - that would be cool tho. Maybe a future update? It would be great to have one horn track with all the four solos playing unison and split automatically.


Nope, that's just what I was expecting too (auto-divisi). So maybe we're both mistaken. However, it's possible that the promotion meant the separate recording of instruments means you can create your own divisi.

You can obviously do what you want to in your last comment with the new library, but playing it in might be easier with auto-divisi.


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## Zookes (Oct 3, 2016)

Have investigated more of this Berlin Capsule thinger, and seems very very flexible using even so many articulations!

I will trial this from Berlin Brass, I think. Maybe a New Year gift to myself.


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## HaidenDvim (Oct 4, 2016)

Zookes said:


> It is not played there, it is sequenced.
> In this video I see some 5 patches loaded creating one line for one instrument. Keyswitching and expression maps only, nothing intelligently scripted or controllable using CC.
> 
> Very very good sound is here, but is not so playable.
> ...




I own a lot of Orchestral Tools Libraries including their full string and woodwinds collection...And they are more playable then any library I own, and that encludes Spitfire and....cough (EastWest). I would not expect anything outside of that with the Brass Library. As a matter of fact, normally if it is Sequenced like this, i.e., written in MIDI notes it sounds very fake, and requires dragging notes over and all this other editing to get a more realistic performance. Anyone here knows what I am talking about. If I could just plop in notes to whatever quantize value and have it sounds like....without having to play it in to get a more realistic preference is freaking unreal. Just saying.


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## Zookes (Oct 4, 2016)

HaidenDvim said:


> If I could just plop in notes to whatever quantize value and have it sounds like....without having to play it in to get a more realistic preference is freaking unreal. Just saying.


Templates I build using even the EWQL libraries, I am able to specify delays by specific articulations. Problems from the samples and idiosyncrasies, I am able to correct by scripts and such and pulling from this palette of compensations. The sequencing is not the difficulty for me.

I am in the search for playable libraries. Ones to sound as I play them so I do not spend so much time drawing notes.
Maybe also it will be fun to play live such things as full realistic strings sections?


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## HaidenDvim (Oct 4, 2016)

Zookes said:


> Templates I build using even the EWQL libraries, I am able to specify delays by specific articulations. Problems from the samples and idiosyncrasies, I am able to correct by scripts and such and pulling from this palette of compensations. The sequencing is not the difficulty for me.
> 
> I am in the search for playable libraries. Ones to sound as I play them so I do not spend so much time drawing notes.
> Maybe also it will be fun to play live such things as full realistic strings sections?



Then you are just like me, and it is the reason I bought Berlin Strings and Woodwinds. They are the first sampling company that I can sit and just explore ideas. The Strings alone are just amazing. I own Spitfire Strings as well as Hollywood strings (Bought them on first day of release), and they do not hold a candle IMO, to Berlin Strings. That being said, I have high hopes that their Brass will be the same as everything else I have experienced with their other libraries. Who knows, they could prove me wrong....but I actually think they will prove me right.


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