# IZotope Neutron



## lpuser (Oct 5, 2016)

Hi folks,

now that Neutron was released, iZotope are running a very generous intro deal on the plugin, which I really appreciate a lot. It seems that for a short period of time, every owner of a plugin (>=$199) qualifies for a 99$ crossgrade offer to Neutron, which is very very nice IMO. 
On www.plugindiscounts.com this price is even further discounted to $89. Really need to look into this.

Cheers
Tom


----------



## Thorsten Meyer (Oct 5, 2016)

Take a look here, because of the brexit the price here could be even more attractive

timespace.com


----------



## zeng (Oct 5, 2016)

Did you buy and use it? If so what do you think?


----------



## Thorsten Meyer (Oct 5, 2016)

zeng said:


> Did you buy and use it? If so what do you think?


I still need to use it a bit more


----------



## Mystic (Oct 5, 2016)

I too am wondering what the opinion is on this so marking this thread so it pops up on my alerts.


----------



## Ian Dorsch (Oct 5, 2016)

I'm curious as well. Seems like a great idea for those (like me) for whom mixing is the most painful part of the process.


----------



## GdT (Oct 5, 2016)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> Take a look here, because of the brexit the price here could be even more attractive
> 
> timespace.com



Thank you Thorsten for posting this. For us in Britain that is a good deal compared with buying in US Dollars from iZotope; since the exchange rate just went the wrong way for us.


----------



## WindcryMusic (Oct 5, 2016)

I picked this up for the discount too, so thanks to the original poster (without whom I never would have thought to look in my iZotope account for an extra discount coupon). I'm very interested in trying out the dynamic masking compensation between multiple Neutron instances in particular.


----------



## GdT (Oct 5, 2016)

WindcryMusic said:


> I'm very interested in trying out the dynamic masking compensation between multiple Neutron instances in particular.


With regard to what iZotope call dynamic masking there is a similar function in a Melda plugin called MMultiAnalyzer which I have used in the past - it shows an EQ curve for different tracks all in one window using different colours for each track. However it leaves the user to work out where the overlapping masking occurs.


----------



## WindcryMusic (Oct 5, 2016)

GdT said:


> With regard to what iZotope call dynamic masking there is a similar function in a Melda plugin called MMultiAnalyzer which I have used in the past - it shows an EQ curve for different tracks all in one window using different colours for each track. However it leaves the user to work out where the overlapping masking occurs.



I just took a look at that. Looks interesting, but I have the impression that it is not as powerful, since (according to the videos) Neutron can dynamically apply EQ to a problem band at only those moments in the track where it is actively masking another channel. That seems like it would be quite difficult to accomplish otherwise, through manual automation or otherwise.


----------



## lpuser (Oct 5, 2016)

I have not yet received my license, but based on the videos on the web, the masking feature alone seems to be worth it. Especially being able to have two instances open at once (say Kick & Bass) and linking them look impressive. Based on a few reviews, the suggesting features appears to produce nice results, too. Anyway, in my opinion - thanks to the highly discounted loyalty price - it is a no-brainer.


----------



## ceemusic (Oct 5, 2016)

This is really nothing like Melda's MMultiAnalyzer except for the basic freq analysis.This is a mixing plugin & tool- Comp, Limiter, Trans shaper, exciter plus the masking & other features. I've been working with it in VEPro 6, it's a great little plugin..


----------



## Mornats (Oct 5, 2016)

Even though the most expensive product I've bought from Izotope is Nectar Elements (on sale for around £30 a couple of years ago) I qualify for a nice discount. $99 for me  I'll check out some videos first but this has put it right into my price range.

I wonder how it will fair with 18 tracks of Maschine drums, Damage, strings, brass, synths and a range of off-beat instruments...


----------



## WindcryMusic (Oct 5, 2016)

Mornats said:


> Even though the most expensive product I've bought from Izotope is Nectar Elements (on sale for around £30 a couple of years ago) I qualify for a nice discount. $99 for me  I'll check out some videos first but this has put it right into my price range.
> 
> I wonder how it will fair with 18 tracks of Maschine drums, Damage, strings, brass, synths and a range of off-beat instruments...



Yes, performance is a question I am wondering about, too. They at least describe it as being "CPU efficient", but if they mean relative to something like Ozone 7, then I worry that Neutron still may chug a bit on 18 tracks (much less the 40+ tracks that I often have in a single cue). Time will tell ... in the worst case scenario, I might just limit it to only being used on tracks where I am specifically having masking problems.


----------



## ceemusic (Oct 5, 2016)

Mornats said:


> Even though the most expensive product I've bought from Izotope is Nectar Elements (on sale for around £30 a couple of years ago) I qualify for a nice discount. $99 for me  I'll check out some videos first but this has put it right into my price range.
> 
> I wonder how it will fair with 18 tracks of Maschine drums, Damage, strings, brass, synths and a range of off-beat instruments...


Make sure you check out online webshops & there's several crossgrades- Time & Space, PluginDiscounts, AudioDeluxe. I got mine from JRR shop w/ coupon code FORUM for $88.11

I'm currently running about a dozen or so w/o problems in large Cubase projects, Vepro6 along with a few Acustica / Acqua plugins to boot.


----------



## Mornats (Oct 5, 2016)

WindcryMusic said:


> Yes, performance is a question I am wondering about, too. They at least describe it as being "CPU efficient", but if they mean relative to something like Ozone 7, then I worry that Neutron still may chug a bit on 18 tracks (much less the 40+ tracks that I often have in a single cue). Time will tell ... in the worst case scenario, I might just limit it to only being used on tracks where I am specifically having masking problems.



Hopefully no more processing power than having the usual compressor and EQ on the track. There's a review on Ask Audio here: https://ask.audio/articles/izotope-neutron-review but it seems to be based around a typical band setup with drums, bass, guitar and vocals. I'm not sure how it would detect solo strings and a synth for example and apply settings to those.



ceemusic said:


> Make sure you check out online webshops & there's several crossgrades- Time & Space, PluginDiscounts, AudioDeluxe. I got mine from JRR shop w/ coupon code FORUM for $88.11
> 
> I'm currently running about a dozen or so w/o problems in large Cubase projects, Vepro6 along with a few Acustica / Acqua plugins to boot.



Cheers, I'll shop around  I'm a Brit so the exchange rate is awful for me at the moment.


----------



## Daniel James (Oct 5, 2016)

I jumped on the loyalty pricing. $149 for the Advanced seemed like a steal. Also having I am in need of the surround capabilities right now so it makes sense. Also going to be nice to have them as separate plugins too!

I am most curious to watch and learn how it chooses to analyse certain sources. Should be a good ear training exercise like they mentioned.

-DJ


----------



## Mornats (Oct 5, 2016)

It would be brilliant if you could report back on how it works on a source other than the usual pop/rock bands that they demo it on.


----------



## WindcryMusic (Oct 5, 2016)

Mornats said:


> There's a review on Ask Audio here: https://ask.audio/articles/izotope-neutron-review but it seems to be based around a typical band setup with drums, bass, guitar and vocals. I'm not sure how it would detect solo strings and a synth for example and apply settings to those.



I agree. I have doubts that the Mix Assistant portion is going to be of much use for anything other than standard band setups ... e.g., not so much for orchestral mockups ... but the Mix Assistant is not what I bought it for anyway.


----------



## Daniel James (Oct 5, 2016)

Woah shit only just realised the EQ is an 8 band version of the Dynamic eq (essentially precise multi band compressor) This just became more than a steal for me!

-DJ


----------



## Daniel James (Oct 5, 2016)

And yup that masking feature is really good for quickly spotting where tracks are competing. I love that you can name the EQ's too (check top left) so its easy to check your current set up with the conflicting track. Also it allows you to make adjustments to the EQ on the other masked channel from inside the EQ you are on....ie in this example I am editing the brass and checking the mask against the strings, at the bottom of the brass eq its giving me control of the strings eq settings too....very clever! then you can see in the bottom right I have the dynmaic EQ switched on. I am loving this!


----------



## brett (Oct 5, 2016)

Would you see the value in the Advanced version if you weren't working in surround?


----------



## Daniel James (Oct 5, 2016)

brett said:


> Would you see the value in the Advanced version if you weren't working in surround?



You get the plugins as standalone (like I have here) which is nicer on CPU and easier to manage I feel. But yeah also having the option for surround in the future never hurts.

-DJ


----------



## Ashermusic (Oct 5, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> And yup that masking feature is really good for quickly spotting where tracks are competing. I love that you can name the EQ's too (check top left) so its easy to check your current set up with the conflicting track. Also it allows you to make adjustments to the EQ on the other masked channel from inside the EQ you are on....ie in this example I am editing the brass and checking the mask against the strings, at the bottom of the brass eq its giving me control of the strings eq settings too....very clever! then you can see in the bottom right I have the dynmaic EQ switched on. I am loving this!




Daniel, I knew that sooner or later we were bound to agree on _something_  This is a terrific tool.


----------



## brett (Oct 5, 2016)

Does that suggest that disabling the individual modules within the main plugin doesn't reduce the CPU in the same manner as using the single module plugs?

Ie, just the eq activated on the main plug vs the eq only plug?


----------



## WindcryMusic (Oct 5, 2016)

brett said:


> Does that suggest that disabling the individual modules within the main plugin doesn't reduce the CPU in the same manner as using the single module plugs?
> 
> Ie, just the eq activated on the main plug vs the eq only plug?



I don't have the Advanced version of Neutron, but if it is anything like Ozone, I'd say the performance difference in the individual plugin vs. the main plugin with only one module enabled is likely to be minimal. I think it is more a matter of the individual plugins fitting some users' workflows better (especially if they want to mix non-Neutron plugins into the effects chain).


----------



## Daniel James (Oct 5, 2016)

WindcryMusic said:


> I don't have the Advanced version of Neutron, but if it is anything like Ozone, I'd say the performance difference in the individual plugin vs. the main plugin with only one module enabled is likely to be minimal. I think it is more a matter of the individual plugins fitting some users' workflows better (especially if they want to mix non-Neutron plugins into the effects chain).


THIS is the best point. This is so true but I didn't even think of it!

-DJ


----------



## tack (Oct 5, 2016)

Discovered first bug within 5 minutes: if you set the Neutrino mode to anything other than clean (while not bypassed), setting the mode back to clean has no effect, or perhaps doesn't have the correct effect of restoring the influence of the plugin to its previous state. At that point, even when all modules are bypassed and the neutrino mode is set to clean, it is applying at least compression to the audio.

Will file a bug report with this video:



I hate finding bugs in products moments after I buy them. It always seems to happen.


----------



## catsass (Oct 5, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> And yup that masking feature is really good for quickly spotting where tracks are competing. I love that you can name the EQ's too (check top left) so its easy to check your current set up with the conflicting track. Also it allows you to make adjustments to the EQ on the other masked channel from inside the EQ you are on....ie in this example I am editing the brass and checking the mask against the strings, at the bottom of the brass eq its giving me control of the strings eq settings too....very clever! then you can see in the bottom right I have the dynmaic EQ switched on. I am loving this!


I'm looking forward to your 4 hour walkthrough video!


----------



## brett (Oct 5, 2016)

Trialling it here now. It's much hungrier than I anticipated. Also, when are few have their GUIs open it slows everything right down. Super sluggish


----------



## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Oct 5, 2016)

I have and it is all great so far but those Izotope programmers who make the installation packages in InstallShield are ignorant (not stupid, just uneducated). They did not let me choose my VST DLL installation folder. I had to search my system drive to find out where they put them so I could move them to where I keep them all and they were all over the place (bundle install). I love Izotope software though. I bought the bundle and I am very happy with it so far. Thanks to Daniel and Jay for agreeing. After free Neutrino, I was not convinced, but my own experience with other Izotope professional products and Daniel and Jay's agreement (☺) made me take the plunge and so far I love it.


----------



## ceemusic (Oct 5, 2016)

Are you on MAC? PC installer has user choices for file types & folders.


----------



## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Oct 5, 2016)

ceemusic said:


> Are you on MAC? PC installer has user choices for file types & folders.


I am on PC Win 10 Anniversary and there was only a choice for system files (Program Files), not VST DLL location. Maybe I'll uninstall and reinstall with a video, if they are interested. Again this was not just Neutron but the Audio Bundle 2 which has Ozone, Trash and way more.


----------



## ceemusic (Oct 5, 2016)

That's odd. Currently Win10 Ann x64 here. I've always had the typical installer choices from Izotope going back to XP or earlier.


----------



## ceemusic (Oct 5, 2016)

Make sure you select Custom install too.


----------



## tack (Oct 5, 2016)

_Always_ select custom install. By default. Express install is how you end up with crapware on your system, random browser addons, search engine changed, home page changed, etc.

Of course iZotope isn't doing any of _that_ but this is just good practice to get into. In the case of iZotope, as ceemusic said, it's how you specify the VST paths.


----------



## Arbee (Oct 5, 2016)

As someone who has benefitted greatly in recent times from owning Alloy (at times even just as a tutorial to see how the presets approach things), this is a must-buy for me at the discount price.


----------



## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Oct 5, 2016)

tack said:


> _Always_ select custom install. By default. Express install is how you end up with crapware on your system, random browser addons, search engine changed, home page changed, etc.
> 
> Of course iZotope isn't doing any of _that_ but this is just good practice to get into. In the case of iZotope, as ceemusic said, it's how you specify the VST paths.



I know you guys are trying to help and I appreciate that. I write InstallShield packages and InstallAware packages as a part of my job. I have been doing it since 2002 and I am considered somewhat of an expert by my peers. A picture is worth a thousand words they say. So here is what I see during the install. Do you see something that I don't see?


----------



## ceemusic (Oct 5, 2016)

Again, you need to chose the custom install 
Notice it states *"IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO CUSTOMIZE YOUR INSTALLATION CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW TO DOWNLOAD THE INDIVIDUAL INSTALLERS"*


----------



## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Oct 5, 2016)

ceemusic said:


> Again, you need to chose the custom install
> Notice it states *"IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO CUSTOMIZE YOUR INSTALLATION CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW TO DOWNLOAD THE INDIVIDUAL INSTALLERS"*



That went by so fast that I missed it. So all I have to do is download 6 installers and then install them one at a time to be able to choose my DLL path? Not very user friendly. I could write a script to do it with the one installer faster than I can do that. I am OK. I searched my system drive and found all of the DLL files in their various locations and moved them. That was also faster than 6 downloads and 6 installs, but unnecessary in my opinion. I am using it now so I have no further complaints. Tomorrow I won't even care. I just hope that they make it easier for future buyers who may not be so computer savvy.


----------



## rocking.xmas.man (Oct 6, 2016)

oh my...


Daniel James said:


> You get the plugins as standalone (like I have here) which is nicer on CPU and easier to manage I feel. But yeah also having the option for surround in the future never hurts.
> 
> -DJ


Are the separated plugins also working in 5.1/7.1?
I can't really see why neutron has not superseded rx final mix. To me it seems as if neutron does all rx final mix does but with a few more modules and advanced metering...


----------



## Lee Blaske (Oct 6, 2016)

Just picked up Neutron. Really looking forward to it.

iZotope has been doing some amazing work. They are clearly in the lead as far as I'm concerned. While so many other companies are trying to replicate vintage gear and spending lots of time on GUI artwork, iZotope is showing the world what digital plug-in technology is capable of doing, and the results are stunning. I've acquired a ton of plug-ins over the years, but hardly use most of them. I turn to my iZotope plug-ins first, because they really deliver the results I'm looking for. They can also achieved a broad palette of sounds from subtle to dramatic, vintage to cutting edge.


----------



## jononotbono (Oct 6, 2016)

I actually don't own any Izotope plugins yet. Perhaps I should invest in the bundle now this has been released? Their tools seem pretty decent!


----------



## Kaufmanmoon (Oct 6, 2016)

Was in the market for a transient designer so just demoing the one built in here. I'm messing around with it, it's pretty bloody good yes? I've not tried many others to compare but the learn feature seems to work well.
Everyone has mentioned all the cool obvious stuff already!


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 6, 2016)

What is this and what good is it to us using say, orchestral samples etc?

Reply as if talking to your pet Golden Retriever.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Oct 6, 2016)

^I've been thinking about this as well. If you are doubling for example say a viola line with a clarinet you obviously want those to blend but maybe not in the way that samples will "blend". If the parts are unrelated and one is masking the other then I don't know. That's where the sample game differs from the real thing. You'd have to know what you're going for. I haven't tried this software but it seems like it will work well for standard rock or electronic elements in a basic way. Interested though...


----------



## pmountford (Oct 6, 2016)

"Sit, stay....there's a good lad. Here, have a biccie."


----------



## Lee Blaske (Oct 6, 2016)

givemenoughrope said:


> ^I've been thinking about this as well. If you are doubling for example say a viola line with a clarinet you obviously want those to blend but maybe not in the way that samples will "blend".



In a case like that, the frequency spectrum of a viola and clarinet playing the same line would most likely be too close to be able to separate them with the Neutron algorithms. 

But keep in mind, Neutron is really a full-functioned tool for equalization, compression, transient shaping, etc. It'll do everything you need, and in my experience with Alloy 2 (its predecessor), it's more flexible than most anything else available. It's a Swiss Army knife.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Oct 6, 2016)

I guess what I'm saying is that in a live situation the clarinet will push out slightly different timbre/dynamics in order to blend. In sampleland that is more about riding the dynamic xfade, expression and eq (or maybe automating dynamic eq) to imitate that behavior rather than trying to separate the two.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Oct 6, 2016)

I'm also curious how each element (transient designer, comp, exp, eq) stand up to others like FF or Tokyo Dawn, etc.


----------



## jononotbono (Oct 6, 2016)

Perhaps download the trial and then you will know exactly how it works with your music?


----------



## givemenoughrope (Oct 6, 2016)

I plan on it. Just want have material ready to give it a fair shake. It's definitely got me thinking about masking and sidechaining in a more serious way.


----------



## jononotbono (Oct 6, 2016)

Yeah, I'm waiting as well. I'm actually in the middle of a Sound Design course so now is not the time for me. Although I am really interested in the Izotope plugins, I'm kind of thinking saving for a bundle is the best way to go (for me)!


----------



## Uncle Jesse (Oct 6, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Yeah, I'm waiting as well. I'm actually in the middle of a Sound Design course so now is not the time for me. Although I am really interested in the Izotope plugins, I'm kind of thinking saving for a bundle is the best way to go (for me)!


Absolutely mate. Ozone has changed my life!


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 7, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> What is this and what good is it to us using say, orchestral samples etc?



That seems a little redundant as many of use work in multiple genres. Masking, and how it relates back to your orchestral tracks is totally relevant when mixing big/epic trailer cues... Plus you have orchestral hip hop, pop etc...



jononotbono said:


> I actually don't own any Izotope plugins yet. Perhaps I should invest in the bundle now this has been released? Their tools seem pretty decent!



You really can’t go wrong with Izotope. They’re standard in post and mastering for a reason… Killer plugins that are staples in some of the best mastering houses in the world…



givemenoughrope said:


> I'm also curious how each element (transient designer, comp, exp, eq) stand up to others like FF or Tokyo Dawn, etc.



They stand up to Fab Filter just fine. (Personally I wouldn’t put Tokyo Dawn in that same sandbox as either. Not that TD aren't good, but your talking about algorithms that are standards in TV, radio, broadcast, film and mastering…)



Kaufmanmoon said:


> Was in the market for a transient designer so just demoing the one built in here. I'm messing around with it, it's pretty bloody good yes? I've not tried many others to compare but the learn feature seems to work well.
> 
> Everyone has mentioned all the cool obvious stuff already!



I’ve been testing Neutron since it was in its Alpha phase. I did a lot of comparing and its transient shaper is one of my favorites. I regularly use Sonnox, Metric Halo, Alloy 2 and SPL, and generally prefer Neutron’s these days. (FF Pro-MB is a great solution too if used as a multiband upward expander.) Regarding Neutron, the multiband capability lets you shape sound more dramatically than a broadband transient shaper does. It’s incredibly useful on a lot of things people commonly overlook; synths, acoustic guitar, keys, bass guitar, dialogue etc…


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 7, 2016)

Yeah it looks good. Woof!


----------



## elpedro (Oct 7, 2016)

got the bundle, but haven't had much of a chance to play with it.Neutron? first impression...interesting..will report back when i have had some time to play with it...


----------



## elpedro (Oct 7, 2016)

SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. said:


> That went by so fast that I missed it. So all I have to do is download 6 installers and then install them one at a time to be able to choose my DLL path? Not very user friendly. I could write a script to do it with the one installer faster than I can do that. I am OK. I searched my system drive and found all of the DLL files in their various locations and moved them. That was also faster than 6 downloads and 6 installs, but unnecessary in my opinion. I am using it now so I have no further complaints. Tomorrow I won't even care. I just hope that they make it easier for future buyers who may not be so computer savvy.


I had the same problem had to copy and paste the dll's into the right folder manually


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 7, 2016)

Just tried it on a track a track that has bass and drums etc. No orchestral

For a mixing moron like me, this is really good. Really good.

However, someone tell me I'm a moron to like this and I _will_ listen to reasoning.


----------



## jononotbono (Oct 7, 2016)

jcrosby said:


> You really can’t go wrong with Izotope. They’re standard in post and mastering for a reason… Killer plugins that are staples in some of the best mastering houses in the world…



Good to know. I'm just investing in Fab Filter and then I'll be all over this stuff!


----------



## ceemusic (Oct 7, 2016)

Just a quick tip For anyone using it inside Cubase. Notice that Quick linked channels can be used to change presets & certain parameters for selected tracks all at once.

This is so handy, don't know if other daws can do this but it's another reason why I'm glad I moved over to Cubase.

Anyone else noticing certain patterns or algorithms when using the Track Asst.?


----------



## karelpsota (Oct 7, 2016)

Just want to let people know. If you are a former iZotope user you can get *%50 discount* on their website.

I've played around with the demo quite a bit, then I bought Advanced for $149.

Its basically the Ozone mastering plugins with lower CPU usage.
The interaction function is helpful for EQing two instruments at once.
The masking feature is really unique, and mostly accurate. It just doesn't differentiate short sounds from sustained ones, which means it thinks staccato strings and sustain brass "mask" each other, when they often don't.

The automatic preset detection is bit weird, it made my drums distort (although its able to visualize distortion, so I don't know why it decided to do that). Probably will never use it for my music anyways.
If you are familiar with Waves TransX Multi, the Neutron multi-band transient shaper is the next level.

The harmonic exciter module has a very neat UI that allows you to quickly try different distortion types on each band. It also displays "bad distortion" on the spectrum. Pretty cool, but not as advanced as Trash 2.
Lastly, the limiter comes with 3 flavors (called 1, 2, 3) and 3 maximizing algorithms (IRC II, IRC LL, Hard). 1 combined with IRC LL is the most transparent. 2 with Hard Clipping will destroy your mix.

My only regret is that I'm unable to set attack and release setting on the dynamic EQ. Which is not that big of deal since you also have a multi-band compressor.

EDIT: typo.


----------



## ceemusic (Oct 7, 2016)

karelpsota said:


> Just want to let people know. If you are a former iZotope user you can get *%50 discount* on their website.
> 
> I've played around with the demo quite a bit, then I bought Advanced for $149.



Even cheaper over at JRRShop - $132.61. I believe T+S has the best price point for it so far.


----------



## Rob Elliott (Oct 7, 2016)

I can see how you get the loyalty discount on the Izotope ($149 - very fair) site but how to get it on T&S? I am also curious if this is a step up on orchestral samples (over FabFilter).


----------



## Mornats (Oct 7, 2016)

Rob Elliott said:


> I can see how you get the loyalty discount on the Izotope ($149 - very fair) site but how to get it on T&S? I am also curious if this is a step up on orchestral samples (over FabFilter).



Just paste the serial number for one if your qualifying products into the comments box when you order from Time Space. I did that and got my Neutron serial the following day. (I ordered late at night so it may come earlier for you.)


----------



## Jack Weaver (Oct 7, 2016)

SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. said:


> I know you guys are trying to help and I appreciate that. I write InstallShield packages and InstallAware packages as a part of my job. I have been doing it since 2002 and I am considered somewhat of an expert by my peers. A picture is worth a thousand words they say. So here is what I see during the install. Do you see something that I don't see?




Same issue here on Mac, OSX 10.9.5
Install freezes on Music Bundle 2

.


----------



## Rob Elliott (Oct 7, 2016)

Thanks Mornats. Is everyone on W7 64 bit able to install without any issues?


----------



## Fleer (Oct 7, 2016)

Don't see the need to go Advanced on Neutron, as those separates are not more CPU-friendly than the superior ones in Ozone 7 Advanced. And there's always Alloy2 to add if necessary.
Ergo, just going for the basic version, as it has everything except surround.
Correct me if I'm wrong


----------



## Thorsten Meyer (Oct 7, 2016)

Rob Elliott said:


> I can see how you get the loyalty discount on the Izotope ($149 - very fair) site but how to get it on T&S? I am also curious if this is a step up on orchestral samples (over FabFilter).


Yep, timeandspace has currently the best price, even more after the British Pound got a bit hit today


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 7, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Good to know. I'm just investing in Fab Filter and then I'll be all over this stuff!



Good choices! Fab Filter and Izotope pair really well together. The filters are very similar in terms of transparency and clarity.... They really are in a league of their own IMO and you won't regret having either in your set of tools...


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 7, 2016)

Fleer said:


> Don't see the need to go Advanced on Neutron, as those separates are not more CPU-friendly than the superior ones in Ozone 7 Advanced. And there's always Alloy2 to add if necessary.
> Ergo, just going for the basic version, as it has everything except surround.
> Correct me if I'm wrong



You're correct. You can do everything in the basic version that than you can with advanced. Advanced just gives you the individual plugins; on their own they don't have the track assistant features. (Although the EQ does have 'learn nodes' which I like quite a lot).

That being said, some users report that the shell seems to take some adrditonal esources compared to the individual plugins, (i.e. the EQ on its own is a little more efficient as opposed to running it in the shell.) That being said I can't say for sure if there's any truth to that... I didnd't notice much, if any difference... may be an OS thing... 

The individual plugins are nice to have on their own but you can do everything in the standard version. You just don't get discreet modules...


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 7, 2016)

Jack Weaver said:


> Same issue here on Mac, OSX 10.9.5
> Install freezes on Music Bundle 2
> 
> .


Hmm, I tested on a Macbook Pro running 10.9.5 and had no issues... (I'm also running 1.0 on the same machine.) Maybe email support and see if they can help?

EDIT: I didn't upgrade to the production bundle 2 as I own basically everything in it already... may be an issue with the bundle installer.


----------



## Rob Elliott (Oct 8, 2016)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> Yep, timeandspace has currently the best price, even more after the British Pound got a bit hit today


Agreed - they work well together. Having said that - I personally can't wait until FF adds the dynamic feature on their ProQ"3" (speculation).


----------



## Jack Weaver (Oct 8, 2016)

jcrosby said:


> Hmm, I tested on a Macbook Pro running 10.9.5 and had no issues... (I'm also running 1.0 on the same machine.) Maybe email support and see if they can help?
> EDIT: I didn't upgrade to the production bundle 2 as I own basically everything in it already... may be an issue with the bundle installer.



Thanks jcrosby. I did send a send a support request into iZotope on Thursday and haven't heard back yet. 

.


----------



## R. Soul (Oct 8, 2016)

I have checked out quite a few videos on YouTube. 
It seems to me the masking feature with the linking of two channels is worth the price alone.
I usually use Trackspacer for that but this looks like a step up from that - much more control.
Track assistant could be a valuable learning tool, but is probably best used as a starting point.


----------



## Mornats (Oct 8, 2016)

I've just used the masking feature on a violin and choir and with just a couple of tweaks both of them now stand out from each other more. It's made a huge difference just being able to identify the offending frequencies.


----------



## galactic orange (Oct 8, 2016)

Rob Elliott said:


> Agreed - they work well together. Having said that - I personally can't wait until FF adds the dynamic feature on their ProQ"3" (speculation).



Here's hoping they're working on something big like that. It's been pretty quiet as far as new releases go on the FabFilter front.
What was their last new release, Pro-C2? And that was over a year ago. I like what I'm seeing with Izotope's innovation so I'm thinking about adding Neutron. I think FF need to up their game a bit.


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 8, 2016)

galactic orange said:


> Here's hoping they're working on something big like that. It's been pretty quiet as far as new releases go on the FabFilter front.
> What was their last new release, Pro-C2? And that was over a year ago. I like what I'm seeing with Izotope's innovation so I'm thinking about adding Neutron. I think FF need to up their game a bit.



I can totally see this happening. FF does seem to pay attention to Izotope and borrow some influence  That being said they always put their own spin on it... I personally like their take on Match-EQing in Pro-Q2. (Not that that was Izotope's creation. Match-EQing has been around since 2000 or so... TC electronics or Stenberg had the first versions IIRC, and they sounded pretty horrible compared to what we have today lol.)


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 8, 2016)

Also it appears from the GS thread that some people are missing a few extra settings hiding in plain sight...

Before running the track assistant click the arrow on the right side of the button. You'll see a menu for three styles, (or flavors as they called it), and a menu for how intensely you want the track assistant to behave.

The three styles are called broadband clarity, warm and open and upfront midrange. The amount of the processing is in the pulldown menu below that and are pretty self explanitory...

The othee feature some might have missed is the 'learn' button on the EQ. You might want to try setting the EQ with everything at 0 and all nodes on. Then hit the learn button and it will find resonances for you. This is downright awesome when you use it in tandem with the masking meter...

Cheers


----------



## JPZ (Oct 9, 2016)

Very interesting plugin. The track assistance sounds great, but I wonder if it is good with orchestral tracks? Has anyone tried it on orchestral stuff? If it is applied to a Vln1 strings section, for instance, where you would want to cut some frequencies to reduce the bow noise, would it suggest otherwise? On what basis does it make its suggestions?
Also, in the classical sense, you want to blend two instruments together to create a new timbre effect. Say a flute and clarinet, playing at a certain register would create a nice timbre that is different than each one playing separately. So how would the masking filter work here? Or applying it to compare between a horns and cello track playing in unison? I would be interested to find out?


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 9, 2016)

I have it currently on the 10 day trial period and am testing it on old orchestral audio tracks/stems.
So say there's 7 or 8 orchestral audio stems/tracks, I'm just putting Neutron on all the tracks and trying out track assistance and then taking it from there.
Early indications are promising.

Substituting some of the TA setting/findings to your favourite EQ, such as FB, or favourite compressors for example, is interesting, bearing in mind this is a mixing tool and not really for mastering.


----------



## drumman (Oct 9, 2016)

I have the Melda Production MAutoDynamicEQ and MMultiAnalyzer. Got them not too long ago and haven't installed them yet. I bought them to do (per their advertising and description) kind of what Neutron is promoted as doing. But it seems that Neutron is perhaps better at it and does more of the actual work of fixing problem areas. Is that a correct observation?

I'm asking so I don't totally duplicate what I already have. But I'm very inclined to pick up Neutron in light of its many positive reviews and assuming/guessing that it perhaps does "better" than other similar products out there.

(Yes, I know I should install the Melda Production stuff and compare the Neutron demo, but I was hoping for some quick comments in lieu of my poor lifestyle choice of general laziness ).


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 9, 2016)

Trial it for 10 days free.


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 9, 2016)

drumman said:


> I have the Melda Production MAutoDynamicEQ and MMultiAnalyzer. Got them not too long ago and haven't installed them yet. I bought them to do (per their advertising and description) kind of what Neutron is promoted as doing. But it seems that Neutron is perhaps better at it and does more of the actual work of fixing problem areas. Is that a correct observation?
> 
> I'm asking so I don't totally duplicate what I already have. But I'm very inclined to pick up Neutron in light of its many positive reviews and assuming/guessing that it perhaps does "better" than other similar products out there.
> 
> (Yes, I know I should install the Melda Production stuff and compare the Neutron demo, but I was hoping for some quick comments in lieu of my poor lifestyle choice of general laziness ).



I have't used the Melda plugins, but from watching the Youtube videos yes. Neutron is different, it accomplishes both, but adds features that are a first as far as I know. It 'listens' to the audio you feed it and learns where the resonances, fundamentals and prominent areas of your audio are. It basically finds frequencies for you without having to sweep around... And it's amazingly accurate!

It has two major 'auto' features. The main one is called track assistant. That feature determines what instrument category it's analyzing, learns where to place EQ nodes, and sets cuts and boosts based on common EQ moves engineers are likely to make in that instrument category. It also learns where the compression thresholds are, sets them for you, and often adds some exciter. (The thing people should realize, as I've seen this come up a few times this week, is that Neutron isn't attempting to 'fix' your audio. ((Some people seem to think it's performing some kind of 'voodoo' .)) It's only suggesting a starting preset which you can tweak as you see fit, or change all together... Basically it's giving you a place to start from.) There's also three styles and three amounts of intensity you can apply in a pulldown on the button.

The other 'auto' feature, (which I find more useful), is the 'learn' button on the EQ. This will find the resonances but won't perform cuts or boosts. (Although if you've already made some it will keep them. I'd advise not doing that since the more nodes you add the more likely they are to move to some place different than where you made the cut/boost.) Using the learn nodes lets you zero in right away on areas where things are overly prominent, and if there are any clashes, there's a good chance that's a good place to start looking for separation... 

I like to zero out the EQ and then learn the EQ nodes. That way your not seduced by any suggestions that, although may be 'common' for that instrument, might not necessarily be ideal for a specific aesthetic... (If that makes any sense.) I'll turn all the nodes on, learn them, and then go through and boost each one, one at a time, seeing what's offensive and cut as I see fit, making sure to listen in the mix.. 

The other big feature is the masking meter, which works a little differently than a multi-analyzer. From what I understand it's showing you masking that occurs psychoacoustically, not just where there's generic overlap... (If it did than the meter would be lit up everywhere all the time...) it's basically looking for areas where the the clashing has the most impact... So basically you can look at a multi-analyzer until your blue in the face, you'll inevitably see tons of areas where things clash and find yourself on a hunting mission that can send you chasing your tail... This thing is aimed at showing you where clashes can specifically impact one another. It also has a sensitivity slider if you find you want to get really detailed...

But as the manual says, masking isn't always bad... It's actually pat of what makes an orchestra sound cohesive... Basically don't assume it's completely right just because it's showing you clashes... I'd say be more aggressive using the meter if working on say, a trailer or hybrid, and more forgiving on orchestral or acoustic music... 

The other thing is that the EQ can be static or dynamic, any node can be whichever you want, and it can be sidechained as well... So basically yeah, it does what both do, but quicker :-P 
Plus a ton of other DSP features...


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 9, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> I have it currently on the 10 day trial period and am testing it on old orchestral audio tracks/stems.
> So say there's 7 or 8 orchestral audio stems/tracks, I'm just putting Neutron on all the tracks and trying out track assistance and then taking it from there.
> Early indications are promising.
> 
> Substituting some of the TA setting/findings to your favourite EQ, such as FB, or favourite compressors for example, is interesting, bearing in mind this is a mixing tool and not really for mastering.



I kind of do the same thing. I use as much analog emulation as I can, console emulation, tape, vintage EQ and compression, and then use Neutron for surgery at the end. It's a pretty spectacular combination


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Oct 9, 2016)

jcrosby said:


> I have't used the Melda plugins, but from watching the Youtube videos yes. Neutron is different, it accomplishes both, but adds features that are a first as far as I know. It 'listens' to the audio you feed it and learns where the resonances, fundamentals and prominent areas of your audio are. It basically finds frequencies for you without having to sweep around... And it's amazingly accurate!
> 
> It has two major 'auto' features. The main one is called track assistant. That feature determines what instrument category it's analyzing, learns where to place EQ nodes, and sets cuts and boosts based on common EQ moves engineers are likely to make in that instrument category. It also learns where the compression thresholds are, sets them for you, and often adds some exciter. (The thing people should realize, as I've seen this come up a few times this week, is that Neutron isn't attempting to 'fix' your audio. ((Some people seem to think it's performing some kind of 'voodoo' .)) It's only suggesting a starting preset which you can tweak as you see fit, or change all together... Basically it's giving you a place to start from.) There's also three styles and three amounts of intensity you can apply in a pulldown on the button.
> 
> ...









Are you working for Izotope PR and marketing? Perhaps you should be. Thanks for the tutorial and is this part 1 of a series? Much appreciated.


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 9, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Are you working for Izotope PR and marketing? Perhaps you should be. Thanks for the tutorial and is this part 1 of a series? Much appreciated.



No, but thanks Lol. I got to test it so I know it pretty well. It's a lot to take in in one plugin. There are lots of great features that take some time to wrap your head around so just trying help anyone interested in it get a leg up...

Plus mixing usually gets bumped down on the priority list for a lot of us... (Or I should say the time to really sit down with a mix...) I'm just glad that someone finally developed something that'll make our work days a little bit easier...


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 10, 2016)

jcrosby said:


> I kind of do the same thing. I use as much analog emulation as I can, console emulation, tape, vintage EQ and compression, and then use Neutron for surgery at the end. It's a pretty spectacular combination



What you mentioned about the Learn nodes is interesting. I tried some material yesterday and concentrated on just using the Learn nodes and then transferred that to favourite EQ plugs. That's not to say the EQ of Neutron isn't as good; far as I can tell it's very good. But we all know that different EQs such as say FF, have differing characterics soundwise.

Same thing with the Compression settings in Neutron. If required, very easy to transfer to other compression plugs like anything from a Fairchild to just a native DAW compressor from say Cubase or Logic.

Bottom line is, for experts in applying EQ etc during the mixing stage of a track, this may or may not be useful, but for a lot of writers who have not spent a lot of time concentrating on EQ ect versus composing work, then for the money, it's a very good idea to check this out on the 10 day trial basis.

I forsee some really notable tech advances with these algorithms in years to come.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Oct 10, 2016)

The more I look at this (just checking out some of the vids) the more amazing it seems...damn it!
To me it looks very powerful.


----------



## jononotbono (Oct 10, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> The more I look at this (just checking out some of the vids) the more amazing it seems...damn it!
> To me it looks very powerful.



I know. I'm pretending it doesn't exist at the minute but it's not working. So, is Neutron to be used for Mixing and then Ozone to be used after for DIY Mastering? See how I'm convincing myself already that I need the bundle haha!


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Oct 10, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> I know. I'm pretending it doesn't exist at the minute but it's not working. So, is Neutron to be used for Mixing and then Ozone to be used after for DIY Mastering? See how I'm convincing myself already that I need the bundle haha!


lolz


----------



## elpedro (Oct 10, 2016)

nothing will replace your ears, but suggestions are always welcome, and i do like neutron for that!


----------



## Rob Elliott (Oct 10, 2016)

elpedro said:


> nothing will replace your ears, but suggestions are always welcome, and i do like neutron for that!


Yes for sure. I like to think of it as a 'preset for your cue/track' - great starting point but just that - starting point. The good news is tweaking and seasoning to taste is a snap (as is replacing with FF) - Have all the FF stuff and is top drawer IMHO but this plug is worthy of use in day to day work. If you barely have time to keep your client's hair from going ablaze - this is your tool.


----------



## jononotbono (Oct 10, 2016)

Rob Elliott said:


> Yes for sure. I like to think of it as a 'preset for your cue/track' - great starting point but just that - starting point. The good news is tweaking and seasoning to taste is a snap (as is replacing with FF) - Have all the FF stuff and is top drawer IMHO but this plug is worthy of use in day to day work. If you barely have time to keep your client's hair from going ablaze - this is your tool.



That's what I wanted to hear. Although I'm not sure my partner did!!


----------



## Lassi Tani (Oct 10, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> I know. I'm pretending it doesn't exist at the minute but it's not working. So, is Neutron to be used for Mixing and then Ozone to be used after for DIY Mastering? See how I'm convincing myself already that I need the bundle haha!



Same. I was looking at the bundle today for the same reason, and the bundle is on sale :D. I've gone through this thread several times to find someone saying, he doesn't like the plugin, to keep my wallet closed.


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 10, 2016)

Did you get this Rob, or are you using the 10 day trial ATM?


----------



## Rob Elliott (Oct 10, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Did you get this Rob, or are you using the 10 day trial ATM?


Yes, I bought it. With the loyalty discount (I have one other isotope product) and the dealer disc at Audiodeluxe (many are providing an additional small percentage at cart) - I paid something like $257 for the production bundle 2. Great investment for a product I'll likely use EVERY day.


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 10, 2016)

I think I might join you on purchasing this one. I like that you can put it across every track in a song/cue etc and the thing kind of talks to itself. I was onto A earlier and was going to mention this plug to him, but forgot.


----------



## nordicguy (Oct 10, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> That's what I wanted to hear. Although I'm not sure my partner did!!





sekkosiki said:


> Same. I was looking at the bundle today for the same reason, and the bundle is on sale :D. I've gone through this thread several times to find someone saying, he doesn't like the plugin, to keep my wallet closed.


This thing is a piece of ...

...

Sorry guys, really would have liked to help but I couldn't.
Really tried but...well..., failed.


----------



## Rob Elliott (Oct 10, 2016)

that's why I rarely buy ANYTHING I cannot try out first (wish more sample developers would make 'trial/timed' patches of their 'bread and butter' patches). But as I think of it - it might notch into their sales.


----------



## Jaybee (Oct 10, 2016)

I'm intrigued after seeing a couple of walkthroughs and will definitely run the trial soon. Quick Q for those who have the Advanced version. 

Apart from the additional separate standalone plug-ins for compression, eq etc. is there any other functionality present in the Advanced version over Standard? If there is I must have missed it from the videos I've seen so far! Thanks.


----------



## nordicguy (Oct 10, 2016)

Jaybee said:


> I'm intrigued after seeing a couple of walkthroughs and will definitely run the trial soon. Quick Q for those who have the Advanced version.
> 
> Apart from the additional separate standalone plug-ins for compression, eq etc. is there any other functionality present in the Advanced version over Standard? If there is I must have missed it from the videos I've seen so far! Thanks.


Surround.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Oct 10, 2016)

Rob Elliott said:


> that's why I rarely buy ANYTHING I cannot try out first (wish more sample developers would make 'trial/timed' patches of their 'bread and butter' patches). But as I think of it - it might notch into their sales.


Amen brother.

I'm thinking if a dev offers demo trials then they could charge more for their product. Of course this presumes that the said product is actually decent enough to justify the price. Some would do very well. Others may struggle.


----------



## galactic orange (Oct 10, 2016)

I own RX5 Audio Editor (standard version). Do I qualify for the loyalty upgrade to the music production bundle? In my account on the iZotope site I'm only seeing the upgrade coupon for Neutron and Neutron Advanced. I already have all the FabFilter stuff but this deal looks too insane to pass up.


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 12, 2016)

galactic orange said:


> I own RX5 Audio Editor (standard version). Do I qualify for the loyalty upgrade to the music production bundle? In my account on the iZotope site I'm only seeing the upgrade coupon for Neutron and Neutron Advanced. I already have all the FabFilter stuff but this deal looks too insane to pass up.


 
You should. I believe they do loyalty offers for users that have purchased anything over 199... The best way to find out is login to your account and hit the upgrade coupons button...


----------



## studiostuff (Oct 12, 2016)

I also suggest you write to the support team with your question. While they may tell you that the answer to your question is no, I've heard that they might also knock 10% off or offer some other incentive for you to move up... I'm not promising that result. Just suggesting you write iZotope Support and plead your case there.


----------



## galactic orange (Oct 12, 2016)

Thanks for your help. RX5 is listed among the qualifying products for the bundle upgrade. There's just no coupon as there is for upgrading to the Neutron Products. No matter because I can just purchase (via 3rd party retailer) and send them my RX5 license and it should qualify (hopefully). Still on the fence about whether to go for Neutron, Neutron Advanced, or the whole bundle. Please someone convince me not to open my wallet!


----------



## Geoff Grace (Oct 12, 2016)

The trick is to try and anticipate what you're actually going to use rather than what sounds cool. For me, the answer was Neutron Advanced, even though I was sorely tempted by the whole bundle. Of course, YMMV.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Naoki Ohmori (Oct 13, 2016)

I'd like to hear the users' takes about if the Masking Meter also works for Classical/Orchestral pieces in which masking is not necessary bad.


----------



## jonnybutter (Oct 13, 2016)

Naoki Ohmori said:


> I'd like to hear the users' takes about if the Masking Meter also works for Classical/Orchestral pieces in which masking is not necessary bad.



They stress in the 'webinar' that the intelligent features can be useful for learning/ear training and also just for sparking ideas, and I buy that. I have been using it for a couple weeks, and it's brilliant for those things, esp the latter; one of the hardest parts of working mostly alone is being deprived of others' impressions as you go. It's not about necessarily going with those opinions, but you need other points of view to jar you out of your ear-blindness.

Like so many pieces of software these days, this is a ridiculously good deal, at least from my point of view (older guy who remembers racks requisite of hardware). 

Re: the masking function - it is *very* cool that the instances within your project are interactive with each other - eq and sidechaining. It's a time saver in itself, plus you can do complimentary eq with one control point.


----------



## Naoki Ohmori (Oct 13, 2016)

Hi, thank you for your feedbacks. 

I can relate to the solitary work of mixing. I tend to keep the same formulas as I get used to mixing and I thought it helpful that I could get second opinions. 

After commenting on the thread, I tried out the demo and was quite impressed. 
The masking meter seems handy indeed. Even if suggested masking frequencies are not problematic, I realized it'd be helpful to get suggestions. 
And it was a little surprise that the presets for Orchestral instruments were included. 
It could be informative and good start points.  


Also, I'm impressed the GUI and layout are arranged for the intuitive use. 
I originally like mixing but this toy would make mixing more enjoyable.  
As I own Alloy 2, I am probably going to purchase the crossgrade version. 


Just for information, I was concerned about if it worked on Studio One 2.6 but it worked with no problems and I didn't find any CPU spikes. I've heard that it is more CPU hungry than Alloy but it's more acceptable than I expected.


----------



## drawbars (Oct 13, 2016)

Bought it (advanced,) and used it on a 22-stem orchestral christmas jingle last night. I'd post an AB but I can't release the music publicly yet.

For me its a total game changer. 

I compose in a bedroom studio and generally mix in my Pelonis room at work.

I've never been able to get a good mix at home because I can't trust my room - too much acoustic distortion to precisely sweep and identify problems, etc. Plus I have a great mix room at work so I don't even bother.

After printing stems, I balanced levels and did some light automation and panning. 

Then I inserted Neutron on each stem and used "track assist" to listen to the content.

What resulted was the best 'starting point' mix I've ever gotten in my home studio. So good that I sent my demo to the client without re-mixing in my real mix room.

I usually dread mixing (it's always muddy) and this actually has me excited about getting to the mixing stage. I want to go back to old projects now and fix them.

I used the masking on a few high string parts that I had doubled with different libraries and it really opened them up.

Not a big resource hog either. I'm running a mac mini setup and had no issues at all with 22 instances running and talking to each other.

Oh, and when I checked it out in my Pelonis room today, it sounded great.


----------



## Rob Elliott (Oct 13, 2016)

drawbars said:


> Bought it (advanced,) and used it on a 22-stem orchestral christmas jingle last night. I'd post an AB but I can't release the music publicly yet.
> 
> For me its a total game changer.
> 
> ...


Excellent post - I concur on all points. Puts ya in the right ballpark - even the right 'section' - finding the 'seat' specifically is dependent on your 'ears'. Time and game changer for me. I'll have to address the 'high strings' thing you mentioned. Out of the gate I have noticed the wonderful 'suggestions' it makes from 1K down. Like you, this is where I will get into trouble (mud / boxiness, etc....)


----------



## drawbars (Oct 13, 2016)

Rob Elliott said:


> Excellent post - I concur on all points. Puts ya in the right ballpark - even the right 'section' - finding the 'seat' specifically is dependent on your 'ears'. Time and game changer for me. I'll have to address the 'high strings' thing you mentioned. Out of the gate I have noticed the wonderful 'suggestions' it makes from 1K down. Like you, this is where I will get into trouble (mud / boxiness, etc....)



Thanks Rob. By the way, I'm a big fan of your work. I checked off a bucket list item last week where the producer wanted vocal grunts over an Egyptian track. I had years of Survivor grunts in my head (me and my wife are huge fans) so I knew exactly what he was after. I always imagined those vocal sessions must be fun for you guys.


----------



## Musicam (Oct 13, 2016)

Can I use Neutron for orchestral composition? I see only drums, guitar and voice mode...


----------



## ceemusic (Oct 13, 2016)

It's a tool, you can use it for anything. There is a clean mode too if needed.


----------



## Musicam (Oct 13, 2016)

Do you know if can work perfect with reverbs like Quantum Leap Spaces or Lexicon? Thanks for the support here ccemusic.


----------



## Rob Elliott (Oct 13, 2016)

drawbars said:


> Thanks Rob. By the way, I'm a big fan of your work. I checked off a bucket list item last week where the producer wanted vocal grunts over an Egyptian track. I had years of Survivor grunts in my head (me and my wife are huge fans) so I knew exactly what he was after. I always imagined those vocal sessions must be fun for you guys.


----------



## Musicam (Oct 13, 2016)

:_) is Yes? :_)


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 14, 2016)

galactic orange said:


> Still on the fence about whether to go for Neutron, Neutron Advanced, or the whole bundle. Please someone convince me not to open my wallet!



Don't waste your money on Neutron or Trash. Both are totally useless, and Trash is most certainly not a secret favorite of mine when stem mastering. You'll hate the boatloads of saturation models to choose from. And what is the point of multiband saturation? Useless technology... Ozone 7? Pshaw! Worst limiter in the business with terrible Studer Tape and Pultec emulations...


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 14, 2016)

Musicam said:


> Can I use Neutron for orchestral composition? I see only drums, guitar and voice mode...



Yes, you can use it on anything.


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 14, 2016)

Naoki Ohmori said:


> I'd like to hear the users' takes about if the Masking Meter also works for Classical/Orchestral pieces in which masking is not necessary bad.



Even though masking is a big part of what makes an orchestra sounds so cohesive, I find that some sample libraries produce a fair amount of frequnecy buildup in the low mids... It becomes especially noticeable once you start adding big percussion ensembles.

To my ears the imprint of room is more pronounced when you sum the sections of sample libraries together. (Some less so than others...) Probably because the orchestra isn't actually playing in unison... Basically when the orchestra is playing in tandem everyone masking the ringing of the room, with sample libraries there seems to be cumulative buildup from baked in reverb... (If it's a library with a lot of natural ambience...)

Also if you mix and match libraries than I would say for sure, masking is something you should be thinking about... Unless they were recorded in the same space there's bound to be some traffic... Just be subtle and sensible...

You might want to watch this if you haven't yet:


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 14, 2016)

Musicam said:


> Can I use Neutron for orchestral composition? I see only drums, guitar and voice mode...






Baron Greuner said:


> Yes, you can use it on anything.




To add to that, they included some orchestral presets... It's very much intended to be used on anything...


----------



## Soundhound (Oct 15, 2016)

Anyone tried using Neutron on the master buss? I was thinking of two applications. 1) As a sort of auto-Ozone, getting a starting point by having it listen to the whole track. And 2) using Track Assistant for a single track listening to the whole mix (minus that track) to suggest tweaks for that single track.

What thinkest thou?


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 15, 2016)

Soundhound said:


> Anyone tried using Neutron on the master buss? I was thinking of two applications. 1) As a sort of auto-Ozone, getting a starting point by having it listen to the whole track. And 2) using Track Assistant for a single track listening to the whole mix (minus that track) to suggest tweaks for that single track.
> 
> What thinkest thou?



You can use it on the master buss, but none of the Track Assistant algorithms were designed to be applied to a mix. (Did some beta testing... this was one of those things people asked about a lot...) You'd want to set it by hand... 
Also the compression in Track Assistant is pretty heavy handed for a master buss and the limiter really isn't up to the task... (I did a lot of AB-ing with Pro-L and Ozone 7), Neutron's limiter isn't very subtle. When you're pushing the levels you do in mastering it produces audible distortion, and it's not transparent enough for anything orchestral...) Ozone 7 would be a much better choice...


----------



## Naoki Ohmori (Oct 15, 2016)

jcrosby said:


> You can use it on the master buss, but none of the Track Assistant algorithms were designed to be applied to a mix. (Did some beta testing... this was one of those things people asked about a lot...) You'd want to set it by hand...
> Also the compression in Track Assistant is pretty heavy handed for a master buss and the limiter really isn't up to the task... (I did a lot of AB-ing with Pro-L and Ozone 7), Neutron's limiter isn't very subtle. When you're pushing the levels you do in mastering it produces audible distortion, and it's not transparent enough for anything orchestral...) Ozone 7 would be a much better choice...



Thanks for the info. I wanted to know if one of the limiter types of Neutron is the same algorithm as that of Ozone.


----------



## Soundhound (Oct 15, 2016)

Thanks. So far the track assistant and masking functions look really promising, and that's quite a lot for the $. I wonder if they could apply these kind of algorithms/whatever the hell it is to a product that would let you compare indiv tracks to the mix as a whole? Or would that not be something most people would be interested in?



jcrosby said:


> You can use it on the master buss, but none of the Track Assistant algorithms were designed to be applied to a mix. (Did some beta testing... this was one of those things people asked about a lot...) You'd want to set it by hand...
> Also the compression in Track Assistant is pretty heavy handed for a master buss and the limiter really isn't up to the task... (I did a lot of AB-ing with Pro-L and Ozone 7), Neutron's limiter isn't very subtle. When you're pushing the levels you do in mastering it produces audible distortion, and it's not transparent enough for anything orchestral...) Ozone 7 would be a much better choice...


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 16, 2016)

Naoki Ohmori said:


> Thanks for the info. I wanted to know if one of the limiter types of Neutron is the same algorithm as that of Ozone.



Sort of... IRC LL is the Low latency version of IRC I. It's low latency, and although it should sound the same, I find it distorts a lot quicker. (To me it's like how an L1 sounds compared to an L2 if that makes sesne?) 

And to be clear, as a tester you know basically nothing about technical details like this.. you just get the software, hunt for problems and offer ways to make it better... 

IRC II should be the same but I don't know if they've changed anything... I do notice it runs more efficiently than in Ozone, so I'm guessing they did something like reduce oversampling, or something... So I don't know if it's identical, but to me the limiters in Neutron don't quite stand up to Ozone when you start pushing the levels you do when mastering.

As someone who does a fair amount of mastering outside of composing my philosophy is unless your machine is physically limited to where it can't run the software, don't make concessions, EVER. A limiter takes no time to set and its your final decision maker... Don't skimp on the easiest to set and most important part of your final chain...


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 16, 2016)

Soundhound said:


> Thanks. So far the track assistant and masking functions look really promising, and that's quite a lot for the $. I wonder if they could apply these kind of algorithms/whatever the hell it is to a product that would let you compare indiv tracks to the mix as a whole? Or would that not be something most people would be interested in?



As I mentioned above I have no idea where they plan on Taking Neutron... So far the masking meter is the closest thing I've seen to this. Lets hope they have a longer term vision where they're already thinking about stuff like this!


----------



## Naoki Ohmori (Oct 16, 2016)

jcrosby said:


> Sort of... IRC LL is the Low latency version of IRC I. It's low latency, and although it should sound the same, I find it distorts a lot quicker. (To me it's like how an L1 sounds compared to an L2 if that makes sesne?)
> 
> And to be clear, as a tester you know basically nothing about technical details like this.. you just get the software, hunt for problems and offer ways to make it better...
> 
> ...



Thanks for your explanations.
I see. You're not one of the developers but a tester. I expected it to some extent because no one would buy Ozone if Neutron's limiter was as good as Ozone's.
Neutron is made mainly for a mixing tool and I will use it for the purpose.

Btw, what do you think about the Neutron's parallel EQ(EQ Mix)?
I found it interesting and sounds less artificial especially when employing a high shelf; gives subtle tweaks but I'm not a seasoned engineer. I just wanted to ask about it.


----------



## ceemusic (Oct 16, 2016)

Wondering if anyone here is noticing DC Offset on any rendered tracks? (using around 15 or more instances )

Not sure if it's Neutron causing it but only started noticing it since I started using it about a week ago.


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 16, 2016)

I wouldn't worry about limiters with regard to Neutron personally. A limiter is more of a mastering tool and they can get a bit specialist for a lot of people.


----------



## Baron Greuner (Oct 16, 2016)

Wrong thread. Carry on.


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 16, 2016)

Naoki Ohmori said:


> I expected it to some extent because no one would buy Ozone if Neutron's limiter was as good as Ozone's.
> Neutron is made mainly for a mixing tool and I will use it for the purpose.
> 
> Btw, what do you think about the Neutron's parallel EQ(EQ Mix)?
> I found it interesting and sounds less artificial especially when employing a high shelf; gives subtle tweaks but I'm not a seasoned engineer. I just wanted to ask about it.



Yeah Neutron is intended to be a mix tool. They were pretty clear bout that in the webinar they last week... (if you haven't seen it yet it's here:  )

You could certainly use it in mastering though, I don't think they designed it without considering that some people will inevitably try to fit it in... The dynamic EQ for example I like quite a lot. I've used it on the master buss and it does a nice job of smoothing out areas where there might be a little congestion... (Ozone'd dynamic EQ does have significantly more control though. I tend to use that unless my machine is running low on resources, as it's pretty CPU heavy as dynamic EQs go...) 

if you do, approach it as tool to sweeten things a little before you go into your main effects chain and use something like Ozone, Fab Filter, UAD etc to do the heavy lifting... I'd suggest trying it first in the chain and leaving a few dB headroom going into and coming out of it... basically leave your best tools ample headroom... (As redundant as that sounds I know many develop who develop bad headroom practices early on, and like any habit it can be a hard one to break.) 

Anyway, I've tried the mix slider on the EQ a bit. It's nice. I think they designed it that way so you can go back and fine tune how things fit together as the mix starts getting more dense. Definitely useful... And if you find the default analogue shelf kind of artificial try the Baxandall shelf. It's much smoother and a common EQ type used in mastering...


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 16, 2016)

ceemusic said:


> Wondering if anyone here is noticing DC Offset on any rendered tracks? (using around 15 or more instances )
> 
> Not sure if it's Neutron causing it but only started noticing it since I started using it about a week ago.


Huh, haven't noticed this but will definitely check it out. If there is an issue that's a huge bug they need to fix...


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 18, 2016)

ceemusic said:


> Wondering if anyone here is noticing DC Offset on any rendered tracks? (using around 15 or more instances )
> 
> Not sure if it's Neutron causing it but only started noticing it since I started using it about a week ago.



Hey Ceemusic,

I did some looking into this... I checked in Logic using the wave editor. I took a few drum stems and checked them for DC offset. (a few of them actually had tiny amounts acoording to Logic, like .001-.03%.) I removed DC in Logic before bouncing in place, then rendered Neutron on each stem.
(I also tried each of the three track assistant profiles and each of the three intensity amounts.)

I found this:

In some files there was no additional DC offset, some there were tiny extra amounts (.001-.03-ish), and some had less DC offset.

So I think Logic's wave editor isn't calculating DC Offset correctly and Neutron is actually causing any DC Offset. (Many wave editors miscalculate DC offset according to the thread below.)

Check this thread on Gearslutz. The guy who wrote most of the Izotope algorithms breaks down miscalculations. (Not sure if we're allowed to post other forum links?? https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mas...not-remove-dc-offset.html?highlight=dc+offset ) Look for any replies by Alexey Lukin in that thread. He's the guy you really want to listen to in terms of calculating it...

Anyway... I haven't noticed it, I would imagine Izotope would have caught it as well, they're not known for making shoddy software that would induce DC, if anything they have amazing tools to fix this kind of stuff... It's something that typically wouldn't slip by them...

Are you seeing the waveform sit above the 0 crossing line or is your wave editor saying there's offset? If it's your wave editor zoom in see if it's consistently above the zero line, or on average sits on the it. If it looks centered than it's most likely a miscalculation...
​


----------



## ceemusic (Oct 18, 2016)

I first noticed the DC values in Studio One on my source mixes. I use Cubase for mixing down tracks to stems. Since then I use Stats in Cubase to check DC & use the dedicated preset to remove it from the stem.
As I said it could be other plugins I but only started noticing DC after I started using Neutron in the projects I've been working on for a few months. It's not a major issue just curious if anyone else was having similar results.


----------



## Hywel (Oct 18, 2016)

Sorry folks, bird brain question... What's DC offset? This plug in looks really useful for me (a mixing imbecile) but I'm worried about these last few posts and what they mean.


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 18, 2016)

ceemusic said:


> I first noticed the DC values in Studio One on my source mixes. I use Cubase for mixing down tracks to stems. Since then I use Stats in Cubase to check DC & use the dedicated preset to remove it from the stem.
> As I said it could be other plugins I but only started noticing DC after I started using Neutron in the projects I've been working on for a few months. It's not a major issue just curious if anyone else was having similar results.



The timing does seem suspicious, but no one reported this during testing. Someone would have caught it, and I can't imagine that getting by them as they make some of the best tools available to fix things like DC Offset... Seems like something else is probably the the culprit.. 

I have found DC issues in sample libraries though, maybe check there fist. Synths are totally capable of generating it as well... Could try saving a preset with the same settings you used and rendering it to a sample or instrument that you know doesn't have any?

I'd be interested to see if you find it...


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 18, 2016)

Hywel said:


> Sorry folks, bird brain question... What's DC offset? This plug in looks really useful for me (a mixing imbecile) but I'm worried about these last few posts and what they mean.



Without getting too complicated it's basically ultra low noise near 0 hz. You can spot if if your waveform looks like it's sitting above or below the center line in an audio file... It's inaudible but causes all kinds of issues, the most annoying being that it steals headroom from your mix... It's basically an audio engineers nemesis 
The top waveform in this image has DC Offset


----------



## Hywel (Oct 18, 2016)

Thanks @jcrosby for that concise and understandable explanation. I now feel confident that this issue will not concern me personally in using this software.

Best wishes
Hywel


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 19, 2016)

Thanks Hywel. I think you're fine... Hoping Cee replies back confirming things seem ok... And Cee, if you do still see issues let me know, I can file bug reports, the beta forum is still open and being reviewed...


----------



## drumman (Oct 19, 2016)

Hywel said:


> Thanks @jcrosby for that concise and understandable explanation. I now feel confident that this issue will not concern me personally in using this software.
> 
> Best wishes
> Hywel



I think you'll be quite happy with it. I've had it about a week. I don't regret buying it one bit. Some common advice that folks give is that it's a good starting point for mixing. Heck, it's better than most of what I can come up with on my own! I've been content so far just to let it do its thing and leave the result alone. I suppose I'll tweak it in the future, but it's a fine plugin on its own.


----------



## lpuser (Oct 19, 2016)

drumman said:


> Heck, it's better than most of what I can come up with on my own!



I think so, too. IMO the track assistant is fantastic - and on quite some occasions it has already been very helpful, especially when you sum a bunch of keyboards to one bus and put Neutron on. In my opinion, the term "starting point" gives a false impression, because there really is not much to be done regarding the EQ (of course, maybe turning off another compressor or the transient shaper is okay).


----------



## studiostuff (Oct 19, 2016)

I took advantage of the offer to buy the Music Prod Bundle 2 for $200 when i got a coupon for owning the Post Production Bundle. Spent several hours with Neutron; it definitely gives one a bunch of ideas and different ways to go. Ozone, Nectar, Trash... it's all very deep. I'm an iZotope fanboy. Mixes will definitely take more time for a while...


----------



## Harry (Oct 19, 2016)

The compression Neutron adds always seems to give a gain reduction of around 5db or more. I even added a compressor before Neutron and compressed with a gain reduction of 10db - Neutron still suggested a further 5db. Is it ignoring any other FX in the channel prior to it? I tried adding my own severe EQ high pass at 10 000Hz - and Neutron was still suggesting things way down at 200Hz. It actualy suggested the same EQ changes even if I bypassed my own EQ ...


----------



## kavinsky (Oct 19, 2016)

Harry said:


> Is it ignoring any other FX in the channel prior to it?


Highly unlikely.
I'm actually a bit pissed off about this. I mean, its none of its business what plugins you use before the input! haha


----------



## 5Lives (Oct 19, 2016)

Has anybody run track assistant and then run another track assistant after that with another instance? In theory, the second one shouldn't be suggesting much right?


----------



## Jaybee (Oct 20, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Has anybody run track assistant and then run another track assistant after that with another instance? In theory, the second one shouldn't be suggesting much right?



In theory, once you've corrected a track then there should be nothing left to correct if it's applying the same 'rules' when listening. I've finally got some time free to download and play with the demo today so will be testing & testing. I've been watching many YT reviews over the last week and they all seem to do the same thing, separate kick from bass. OK.

I want to see how it deals with piano, string lines, synths, guitars etc. In fact I came across one YT vid last night where the Track Assistant suggestions were quite awry (in the opinion of the mixer) on a number of tracks (especially the guitar with resonance issues). Worth a watch:  I think it's simply another tool to be used and definitely not a panacea.



Harry said:


> The compression Neutron adds always seems to give a gain reduction of around 5db or more. I even added a compressor before Neutron and compressed with a gain reduction of 10db - Neutron still suggested a further 5db. Is it ignoring any other FX in the channel prior to it? I tried adding my own severe EQ high pass at 10 000Hz - and Neutron was still suggesting things way down at 200Hz. It actualy suggested the same EQ changes even if I bypassed my own EQ ...



The huge amounts of compression (most often suggesting double compression) has been a feature of the videos I've watched so far. The Ozone video talks about using Neutron at the start of the chain to get a base to work from, or at the end to tweak what you've got set up so it should be listening to whatever comes before it in the signal chain and enhancing that. I hope! The ears will be the final judge


----------



## bryla (Oct 20, 2016)

Jaybee said:


> Worth a watch:


If you - like me - use Neutron to start off your processing, you miss out on a lot if you don't use the Track Assistant settings. In the case with the guitar resonance I would have liked to see him use a stronger setting.


----------



## Kaufmanmoon (Oct 20, 2016)

Just tried 3 instances on a drum loop and I would say it's not listening to the previous plugins in the chain as it keeps adding similar eq movements and compression each time.
I'd use it at the start of the chain.


----------



## Jaybee (Oct 20, 2016)

Kaufmanmoon said:


> Just tried 3 instances on a drum loop and I would say it's not listening to the previous plugins in the chain as it keeps adding similar eq movements and compression each time.
> I'd use it at the start of the chain.



That's strange. The audio into Neutron will surely be fed directly by the previous plugin. Why would it ignore the audio fed directly to it and somehow return to the track base audio? Added to my testing list!



bryla said:


> If you - like me - use Neutron to start off your processing, you miss out on a lot if you don't use the Track Assistant settings. In the case with the guitar resonance I would have liked to see him use a stronger setting.



In the case of the resonant guitar above, he turns off all previous plugins so in effect Neutron is first in the chain. Good point re the strength of the Neutron suggestions though. Could well have been the case that the stronger setting would pick up the nastiness.


----------



## Harry (Oct 20, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Has anybody run track assistant and then run another track assistant after that with another instance? In theory, the second one shouldn't be suggesting much right?


Interesting suggestion. If there is one instance of Neutron, using Track Assistant, then its followed by another instance on the same track, logically then the Track Assistant would not suggest any further chnages?

I tested it. It just suggested some more eq changes (in different places), and another set of 5db+ of compression.

So, what's going on there?


----------



## 5Lives (Oct 20, 2016)

The question I posed was mentioned on Gearslutz, where the reception has been less than stellar it seems. Some folks are indicating that Neutron just detects the material type and then imposes a preset vs. actually determining problems. Who knows for sure. I feel if you have Fabfilter, UAD, etc., those will be superior quality and things like masking can be done by bringing up two analyzer windows.


----------



## bryla (Oct 20, 2016)

I was gonna do a video about the works of Track Assistant but Screenflow hasn't been woking. I pulled up Logic Drummer and inserted an EQ with a resonant peak at around 3k and a 96db/oct low cut. This did not affect the way Neutron set its EQ.


----------



## Jaybee (Oct 20, 2016)

5Lives said:


> The question I posed was mentioned on Gearslutz, where the reception has been less than stellar it seems. Some folks are indicating that Neutron just detects the material type and then imposes a preset vs. actually determining problems. Who knows for sure. I feel if you have Fabfilter, UAD, etc., those will be superior quality and things like masking can be done by bringing up two analyzer windows.



This! 

I downloaded and installed this morning and I have to say that is exactly what I'm seeing here. The Track Assistant 'listening' seems to detect whether it's bass, drums, vocals etc then it simply applies a stock preset EQ, a smorgasbord of Compression and normally an Exciter. I've been playing with this solid for the past six hours on all sorts of material and I've seen the same EQ Curve and Compression settings appear countless times just shifted up or down a few hz. On one occasion I put it on a track with a very low synth bass that was around 50-60hz fundamental and it was suggesting a series of cuts and boosts up at 300hz...hmm. 

Overall impression is that it likes to thin everything out, add bottom end, stick a high shelf at 2-3db on most things plus a boost from the Exciter. Sometimes the reverse, an inexplicable low shelf 2-3db cut right on a fundamental bass frequency. Sometimes, with mid range frequencies it gets in the ballpark, but low & high is hit and miss. I had a snare that was fairly OK raw, but had a ring to it. Neutron couldn't find it (I tried aggressive). The resulting settings turned it into a brittle thwack (with the ring intact). The alternative 'warm and open' & 'upfront midrange' Track Assistant modes seem to do even more extreme moves which I didn't care for. I stuck to the default standard 'broadband clarity' instead. That seems to be the best so far. 

As above, a "fixed" track which then has another instance of Neutron applied makes almost exactly the same EQ/Compression/Exciter moves to the already "corrected" audio. A few hz either way each time but the same curves come up time and again. That's got to be the evidence of a blind preset. Because if this really was an automated portal to the soul of Chris Lord Alge, he wouldn't boost 4k *again* surely? 

Finally, I think this is a great tool if you've never mixed, have only a few stock plugins or are generally not monitoring in a good environment. The component parts are all very good quality fx. I'm guessing it's aimed at the majority of musicians, bedroom producers working on laptops and less than stellar headphones. It does suggest moves that sometimes are very good, but today they've been mostly "so-so" and I think I'd rather use my ears and get the job done with the plugs I know well already. That would seem quicker than working to correct Neutron's suggestions or even working within the small GUI, which is very small on a large monitor (you 4k guys are going to need a magnifier). I found precision moves in the EQ window to be a poor experience after using something like Fabfilter for example and I couldn't find any way to "sweep". You can hold (Alt on a PC) over the EQ point to solo it but I couldn't move it around solo'ed (like ProQ2). 

I moved onto the Masking feature. Again, the display is so very very tiny it's hard to get really precise. Every single video I 've seen shows moving kick & bass apart. There's probably a good reason for this. It's a quick win. I tried two similar rhythm guitars. They were in a frequency range that no matter what I did, would not come apart according to the Masking meter, yet sounded perfectly OK (especially panned L&R). To get them apart with EQ meant EQ moves that mangled the timbre of one or the other. The starting blend was actually better. This is a lesson to me to not go chasing my tail round graphical displays saying "something's up" when my ears tell me otherwise! 

Jury is still out but I don't think my wallet is likely to open for this one.


----------



## Kaufmanmoon (Oct 21, 2016)

I actually bought this for the transient designer as I needed one. I looked at everything else as a bonus. The EQ picking out resonances as a starting point and the masking is worth it I feel to help my ears. I need all the help I can get. Having said that, fabfilter is still my go to.


----------



## muk (Oct 21, 2016)

If Jaybee's finding are accurate that would be somewhat underwhelming. Neutron recognizes a track as drums, and then simply applies a generic preset created for drums? Well, it would probably be just as quick selecting that preset yourself. Some time ago a company called 'Sonible' released an eq that was quite a bit smarter than that. 'Freiraum' actually analyzes a sample of your track, and then comes up with an eq curve that is specifically tailored to that particular track. In the test I did it worked surprisingly well. Downsides are the cost, and it eats cpu cycles like no other eq.


----------



## Jaybee (Oct 21, 2016)

muk said:


> If Jaybee's finding are accurate that would be somewhat underwhelming. Neutron recognizes a track as drums, and then simply applies a generic preset created for drums? Well, it would probably be just as quick selecting that preset yourself. Some time ago a company called 'Sonible' released an eq that was quite a bit smarter than that. 'Freiraum' actually analyzes a sample of your track, and then comes up with an eq curve that is specifically tailored to that particular track. In the test I did it worked surprisingly well. Downsides are the cost, and it eats cpu cycles like no other eq.



As far as I can tell it's detecting what type of sound it thinks it is and then it's applying a set of pre-determined curves (i.e. there's always a low shelf at Xdb, a cut at Xdb then two boosts at Xdb then a high shelf at Xdb) for Y type instrument. The 'curve' looks the same on one guitar track as it does on another, except the frequencies are changing slightly. So it's not a generic preset but rather "oh it's a guitar, that needs shelf/cut/boost/boost/shelf" regardless of if it actually does. The Compressor settings are similar, baked in ratios and amounts. Threshold will be different obviously. 

What makes me raise an eyebrow is this. If it's truly 'listening' for resonances and other areas where work is needed why does it apply _almost _exactly the same suggestions for cut/boost/comp/exciter on a track that it's already "corrected" via a previous instance some moments ago?


----------



## Sekkle (Oct 21, 2016)

Just wanted to give you guys a heads up on a major issue i've encountered with the VST3 version of this plugin in Cubase 8.5 on Win7. (I'm using Nuetron Advanced)

Here's basically what I just wrote to Izotope support..

I was using the full plugin VST3 version of Nuetron Advanced on a Cubase project with 13 instances running while sidechaining a number of these to eachother to trigger dynamic EQ bands.

My Cubase performance meter (asio meter) was sitting about 60% when I first loaded up the project. However once I started to work the meter slowly rose until after about 20 minutes my performance meter was at 100%, hitting red with Cubase breaking up and crackling the audio playback. When I restarted the project the performance meter started back at 60% again and the same events unfolded. This happened a number of times.

I then deleted all of the Nuetron Advanced full version plugins from the project and left the project on a loop overnight and the performance meter didn't change. It's definitely Nuetron Advanced VST3 that is causing this problem.

In this same project I was also running 49 instances of Nuetron Advanced standalone EQ in VST2 format which I didn't delete in this overnight test and they were fine.

I then replaced all of the VST3 versions of the full Nuetron plugin with the VST2 versions with the exact same settings except for the sidechaining (as I can only sidechain with VST3 in cubase). The first thing I noticed was about 20% less usage on the performance/asio meter in Cubase with the exact same settings as I had with the VST3 versions of the plugin. I then left the project on loop and the performance meter stayed in the same place.

It appears as though there is a major issue with the full version of the plugin in VST3 format. It requires about 20% more CPU than the VST2 version and it slowly creates a 'CPU leak' that renders the project unuseable after a period of time.

The whole reason why I bought Nuetron was to use the sidechain feature along with the masking meter to replace Trackspacer and now I can't use this function as VST3 is broken and therefore I can't use the sidechain in Cubase. 

Once I hear anything back from support I'll update any progress on this.


----------



## muk (Oct 22, 2016)

Jaybee said:


> What makes me raise an eyebrow is this. If it's truly 'listening' for resonances and other areas where work is needed why does it apply _almost _exactly the same suggestions for cut/boost/comp/exciter on a track that it's already "corrected" via a previous instance some moments ago?



That's not a reassuring behavior indeed. It looks like Sonible has a much more refined solution, if only for eq.


----------



## R. Soul (Oct 22, 2016)

Sekkleman said:


> The whole reason why I bought Nuetron was to use the sidechain feature along with the masking meter to replace Trackspacer and now I can't use this function as VST3 is broken and therefore I can't use the sidechain in Cubase.


I hope you get the issues sorted. 
I also use Cubase 8 artist, Win 10 and VST3 and I haven't had such issues. 
I was using Neutron standard though, and only a handful of instances.

But the reason why I quoted this above is, this is the exact reason why I'd get Neutron.
I don't get why there's all this talk about Assistant. It's purely a starting point, and I skip Assistant completely. I've also yet to try any presets. Presets are probably good for guitar and violin, but synth leads can vary so much in frequency content, that a preset becomes pointless.

I see Neutron as the best dynamic EQ out there, with the ability to learn all the resonances and set nodes.
The Masking feature is great, with the histogram that shows you were the overlapping frequencies are.

I'd be perfectly happy if they sold the EQ section by itself, but that's probably not going to happen.

Anyway, I think it's a very helpful tool for improving your mixes, but seriously, if you go into it expecting it to do your mixes for you, I think you'll be disappointed.


----------



## bryla (Oct 22, 2016)

Jaybee said:


> What makes me raise an eyebrow is this. If it's truly 'listening' for resonances and other areas where work is needed why does it apply _almost _exactly the same suggestions for cut/boost/comp/exciter on a track that it's already "corrected" via a previous instance some moments ago?


It is not listening for resonances. I opened Neutron on the master bus that was only receiving a drum loop with a 9dB resonant boost of some 3.5k. Neutron didn't do anything to address this.


----------



## gtrwll (Oct 23, 2016)

Trying out the trial, and while I like its functions, the plugin itself seems to be a huge cpu hog. Yeah, my PC is next to ancient but it has never seen anything like this.

Oh well, another reason to upgrade.


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 23, 2016)

Jaybee said:


> As far as I can tell it's detecting what type of sound it thinks it is and then it's applying a set of pre-determined curves (i.e. there's always a low shelf at Xdb, a cut at Xdb then two boosts at Xdb then a high shelf at Xdb) for Y type instrument. The 'curve' looks the same on one guitar track as it does on another, except the frequencies are changing slightly. So it's not a generic preset but rather "oh it's a guitar, that needs shelf/cut/boost/boost/shelf" regardless of if it actually does. The Compressor settings are similar, baked in ratios and amounts. Threshold will be different obviously.
> 
> What makes me raise an eyebrow is this. If it's truly 'listening' for resonances and other areas where work is needed why does it apply _almost _exactly the same suggestions for cut/boost/comp/exciter on a track that it's already "corrected" via a previous instance some moments ago?



Yeah, this is a common misunderstanding about how Neutron works. It doesn't "fix" or "correct" anything. (I had the same initial reaction when I first tested it. I assumed it would do something like analyze the dynamic range and apply an "optimal" amount.)

Thinking of it like this helped me understand the reasoning behind some of the choices they probably made...
What point of reference does Neutron have for something being correct vs wrong? 

We live in an era where music is filtered for effect, sampled from vinyl, autotuned, glitched, distorted on purpose, bitrate reduced, etc etc... How could Neutron correct something when so much music now is made to deliberately challenge the aesthetics of "good" mixing practices? Also imagine how much longer track assistant would take to run if it had to check in with every other Neutron to see if something was already 'corrected'... 

There's all kinds of other reasons why that's a bad approach.
For example if you wanted to go for a Big 1176 crushed sounding drum room, or barely hit it and glue it together, Neutron has no way of understanding which dynamic approach you prefer... (But you can influence its choices. If you haven't discovered it yet or just found this thread the TLDR is: There's a pulldown in the Track Assistant button. Select the 'arrow' where it says 'Track Assistant' and you'll see two pulldowns how you define its choices.... Since pretty much all of us here are working with orchestral material I recommend setting it to subtle unless you're doing a hybrid. trailer ...) 

The best it can do currently is guess by choosing what's typical for the instrument it 'discovers' based on the aesthetics you define... You usually do have to fine tune it a little for sure, but it gets you close enough where those few tweaks are painless... Plus tweaking a static preset usually takes a lot more work... I've found it handy for building template presets quickly that I can recall once saved...

The short version is it doesn't "Fix bad audio". And I totally get the reasoning behind that after spending several months testing it... What's good vs what's bad is subjective.. Whether you're going for a lofi vibe or a deliberately distorted mix there's no science on how to 'fix' that... Imagine Neutron trying to 'correct' a Nine inch Nails or Velvet Underground record. Even Radiohead for that matter...

Basically Neutron is just giving you an 'intelligent' preset to start from based on what it analyzes in your audio. It does detect and find fundamentals, harmonics, resonances & mud, and it does learn the compression threshold. The rest are starting places, based on common approaches, and you will probably want to tailor them a little... That being said, a static menu preset has no idea what key you're in and no idea how hot your signal is... 

It's not perfect that's for sure, and there are things I think need a lot of improvement... But I do think they made some smart overall choices in the sense that they found a way to make something that adapts to you, does it quickly, and is pretty damn CPU friendly considering what it pulls off... 

I'm sure in an ideal world Izotope would take more time to perfect Neutron but that's not how it goes in technology... Someone will put it out there if you don't do it first... They've been really good at setting a new bar with a lot of their products... I think they're way ahead of the curve and probably got it about as good as anyone else could when breaking ground like this... 

Hopefully they find ways of letting the us refine its behavior and be more precise... Knowing them they're already on it...


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 23, 2016)

bryla said:


> It is not listening for resonances. I opened Neutron on the master bus that was only receiving a drum loop with a 9dB resonant boost of some 3.5k. Neutron didn't do anything to address this.



Yes it is. Track assistant is aimed more at painting with a broad brush and is only going to make fairly transparent and safe tonal choices. (But its EQ choices are based on resonance and/or harmonic content it analyzes.)

I have a hunch what's happening is that people are trying the demo and only trying the track assistant. Since the assistant feature is aimed more at making broad strokes people are assuming it doesn't find resonance without understanding how assistant works; and more important why you'd use learn over track assistant.... Like any plugin you have to take time to learn it, and there's a lo to learn...

It does find fundamentals, harmonics and resonance. If you want Neutron to be more surgical, i.e. look for as much resonance as it can find, you should use the learn function in the EQ. This was the first thing I checked, and I checked it on a good 15 to 20 different sources... (Everything from bad dialogue to orchestral instruments to guitars and drums in various genres.) I also rechecked this all throughout testing...

Why would a well respected company risk their reputation by developing a plugin and then claiming it does something it doesn't? It doesn't make sense and most of these claims seem to come from people who either want to dislike Neutron or assume it's a one click operation...

Anyway, I've made some screen captures clearly showing it does. I'll post them sometime today when I have a moment...


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 24, 2016)

If anyone's curious here are a few tests I did on Neutron's EQ detection accuracy... Hopefully it provides a little more info for anyone considering it, and clarifies some misconceptions that people seem to be throwing around...

Anyway hope you find it interesting if nothing else, and I'd appreciate people refraining from sharing this thread (or the clips) on G.S... (I'm not a huge fan of the egos over there and they don't take kindly when you call bullshit...)


Testing Track Assistant on a drum mix to see why it places EQ nodes where it does...


Seeing how well Neutron detects room resonance on a drum mix...


Seeing if Neutron's EQ learning feature can detect a resonant EQ boost placed before it...


Seeing if I can pull a fast one on Track Assistant by placing a resonant EQ boost before it...


Testing how well the EQ learning feature can detect fundamentals & harmonics on a string ostinato.
(Don't judge! lol.. It's crap...)


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 24, 2016)

There's a cap on videos per post... So here's the last one I did seeing how well Neutron detects mud & boxiness in a dialogue clip.


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 28, 2016)

ceemusic said:


> I first noticed the DC values in Studio One on my source mixes. I use Cubase for mixing down tracks to stems. Since then I use Stats in Cubase to check DC & use the dedicated preset to remove it from the stem.
> As I said it could be other plugins I but only started noticing DC after I started using Neutron in the projects I've been working on for a few months. It's not a major issue just curious if anyone else was having similar results.



Hey Cee looks like Neutron does use a DC offset filter. It shouldn't be introducing any offset at all... This is from the email they sent out earlier explaining how spectral shaping works...

_"To ensure Neutrino does not clip the signal at the output, a DC offset filter and brickwall limiter are the final stages of Neutrino’s processing."_


----------



## ceemusic (Oct 28, 2016)

Great & thanks for the info. If I pin down the culprit I'll let you know.


----------



## jacobthestupendous (Oct 28, 2016)

We're down to final days on intro discount. I'm on the fence about grabbing the Music Production Bundle. Worth it?


----------



## Living Fossil (Oct 28, 2016)

jacobthestupendous said:


> We're down to final days on intro discount. I'm on the fence about grabbing the Music Production Bundle. Worth it?



In my opinion it's a very clear "yes".


----------



## JT3_Jon (Oct 28, 2016)

Thanks for the videos jcrosby. To clarify, the only time Neutron is listening to your track and analyzing it is when its in "eq learn" mode, and not in "track assistant" mode, correct? And when its in EQ Learn mode, is it only looking for resonances (which you would probably cut), or does it also place nodes on areas it thinks are lacking in the source and should be boosted?

How well does it find these resonance nodes in instruments that are changing pitches? I see it used on drums, which is good because they dont change pitches, but wouldn't the resonances in say a double bass, change depending on what notes are played, or even what chord you are on? Anyone have experiences they would like to share?

The technology seems very interesting. I'm going to have to try it out. I must say I'm skeptical that it will add enough value for those who already own so many mixing tools. I for sure do not need another compressor, EQ, saturator, etc; I need to learn how to use the ones I already own, lol! But maybe its a case of the sum is greater than the parts?


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 29, 2016)

jacobthestupendous said:


> We're down to final days on intro discount. I'm on the fence about grabbing the Music Production Bundle. Worth it?


IMO it's a steal. Ozone alone is $499. Pretty much everything else in there I use regularly too and Trash is a lot more useful than you'd imagine... I'd say at least demo Neutron, Ozone and Trash. Those 3 alone are a steal and if you do any vocal or voice work Nectar is too...


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 29, 2016)

JT3_Jon said:


> Thanks for the videos jcrosby. To clarify, the only time Neutron is listening to your track and analyzing it is when its in "eq learn" mode, and not in "track assistant" mode, correct?



Track Assistant does place its nodes based on frequency content. If you watch the video I put up called "Track Assistant EQ Boost Detection Test" you'll see it finds the 15 dB EQ boost I made with another EQ inserted before Neutron. (Maybe that wasn't clear from the video. My bad if it was...) I was basically trying to "trick" T.A., but it actually finds the boost I made and puts a cut there. It also picks some of the same frequencies EQ learn does if you watch the 1st video and 2nd video back to back.

What I was trying to show is that Track Assistant does not just pick arbitrary frequencies, and it's not just picking a static preset from the preset list despite some people thinking it does. (I already knew this from testing it for 3 months but wanted it to be clear for anyone who read people claiming it does over at G.S....) Both modes find resonant frequencies, and do it really well...

The main difference is that T.A. has a preset-like template it applies. This template behavior seems to be why some people think it's just picking a preset from the preset list. The template basically is a preset, but it's a preset that adapts to the audio you feed it by listening for resonant frequencies and determining the compression thresholds based on the level of the incoming audio... (It's also Neutron's most basic feature in my opinion.) T.A. is great for people who need to mix quickly or are still learning how to get better at EQ and compression. EQ learn is more of a power-user feature for people who already have an idea of where they want to cut or boost and have a solid understanding of how to create separation using EQ...



JT3_Jon said:


> And when its in EQ Learn mode, is it only looking for resonances (which you would probably cut), or does it also place nodes on areas it thinks are lacking in the source and should be boosted?



EQ learn only finds resonant hot spots. It isn't suggesting what's good or bad, (or as you put it "areas it thinks are lacking"), it's just finding prominent areas of the frequency spectrum... That being said these are often areas you might want to pay attention to... It's kind of the opposite of track Assistant in the sense that you decide what is aesthetically tasteful instead of letting it make suggestions for you...

That's why I described it as a power-user feature; what you do with them is your choice, and is better suited to people who already have a good understanding where problems often build up in mixes... It's basically giving you a place to start looking to make space, but, just because it places a node there doesn't mean you need to do anything with it...

The best way to use EQ learn is in context of the mix. You'd learn the nodes and then start boosting each band with the whole mix playing... Once you start hearing that boost step on other instruments or clog up the mix you probably have a spot where a small cut will help make space... If you want to get fancy you can sidechain that band to a conflicting instrument.



JT3_Jon said:


> How well does it find these resonance nodes in instruments that are changing pitches? I see it used on drums, which is good because they dont change pitches, but wouldn't the resonances in say a double bass, change depending on what notes are played, or even what chord you are on? Anyone have experiences they would like to share?



That's a complex issue. It finds pitches fine, but I don't know how well it deals with complex harmony or polyphonic material. Even though I know Neutron pretty darn well, I'm still trying to understand things like this myself since it's new technology... Plus track assistant only runs for around 7-10 seconds, so if you have a long progression then that's probably where you need to start using your ears, and where the masking meter comes into play.

The thing to keep in mind is the musical frequencies are EQ frequencies. Cutting a harmonic in one section might be reducing a fundamental in another... So I only tend to EQ key specific bands if I'm trying to emphasize an instrument. Most of the time I'm more concerned about figuring out where things are trying to occupy the same space and decide which instrument should take priority...

That being said it does often find room resonance, and if you had something like a string section there might be some muddy resonance that you might want to be more concerned about... And again musical frequencies and EQ frequencies are one in the same... so you really should be thinking in terms of how do these things fit together...



JT3_Jon said:


> I for sure do not need another compressor, EQ, saturator, etc; I need to learn how to use the ones I already own, lol! But maybe its a case of the sum is greater than the parts?


Amen to that! Learn the tools you have before buying new ones. A really good EQ and compressor work well on anything, it's learning how to use them that matters  That being said, Neutron is a really good tool for ear training, (in terms of EQ). It certainly would help you identify problem areas quickly and develop a better ear for it.

EQ is by far the most powerful, and most destructive tool in the audio toolbox... If it's something you struggle with I would try and see the value in it as being a tool that can help you make better mix decisions quickly and training your ear on what to listen for... If you read through this thread you you see a lot of people who already o that. they'll run Neutron to find areas quickly, or see what T.A. suggests and then apply those settings to Pro-Q2 and Pro-C2, or some other plugin...


----------



## Inceptic (Oct 29, 2016)

jacobthestupendous said:


> We're down to final days on intro discount. I'm on the fence about grabbing the Music Production Bundle. Worth it?



If you shop around, there are even greater discounts than the official intro price. You can also buy the RX Plugin Pack, and then qualify for the Neutron cross-grade price. Which basically lets you get the RX plugs for free! Pretty nice option if you don't need everything in MPB2.


----------



## galactic orange (Oct 30, 2016)

jcrosby said:


> Don't waste your money on Neutron or Trash. Both are totally useless, and Trash is most certainly not a secret favorite of mine when stem mastering. You'll hate the boatloads of saturation models to choose from. And what is the point of multiband saturation? Useless technology... Ozone 7? Pshaw! Worst limiter in the business with terrible Studer Tape and Pultec emulations...



Just pulled the trigger on the Music Production Bundle 2! (crossgrade from RX5) Your attempt to keep me away was unsuccessful. The deal was too good to resist. 
I'm looking forward to ruining otherwise acceptable tracks with these terrible, unusable plug-ins.


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 31, 2016)

galactic orange said:


> Just pulled the trigger on the Music Production Bundle 2! (crossgrade from RX5) Your attempt to keep me away was unsuccessful. The deal was too good to resist.
> I'm looking forward to ruining otherwise acceptable tracks with these terrible, unusable plug-ins.



Foiled Again!

Seriously though, Try Trash on different busses or groups using some of the flavors in the saturation menu and some wet/dry mix... It can warm up a stale mix and is anything but trashy


----------



## Naoki Ohmori (Oct 31, 2016)

jcrosby said:


> Don't waste your money on Neutron or Trash. Both are totally useless, and Trash is most certainly not a secret favorite of mine when stem mastering. You'll hate the boatloads of saturation models to choose from. And what is the point of multiband saturation? Useless technology... Ozone 7? Pshaw! Worst limiter in the business with terrible Studer Tape and Pultec emulations...



Hi jcrosby,

It seems to me the comment was opposite to the recent remarks of yours.
It was just a joke or your alter ego said that? 
English is not my mother language.


----------



## HiEnergy (Oct 31, 2016)

Just bought the Music Production Bundle 2 crossgrade from Iris 2 for 240 Euro at Pluginboutique. Hope it will be of good use for me.


----------



## Fleer (Oct 31, 2016)

Got that non-advanced Neutron upgrade for $63. Fun to be had!


----------



## gtrwll (Oct 31, 2016)

Fleer said:


> Got that non-advanced Neutron upgrade for $63. Fun to be had!



What site had that low prices?


----------



## John Busby (Oct 31, 2016)

just purchased the production bundle, can't wait to play around with this stuff


----------



## Fleer (Oct 31, 2016)

gtrwll said:


> What site had that low prices?


Best Service with their Halloween coupon.


----------



## jcrosby (Nov 1, 2016)

Naoki Ohmori said:


> Hi jcrosby,
> 
> It seems to me the comment was opposite to the recent remarks of yours.
> It was just a joke or your alter ego said that?
> English is not my mother language.



Yes I was just kidding


----------



## Naoki Ohmori (Nov 1, 2016)

jcrosby said:


> Yes I was just kidding



I almost took the comment literally at the moment.
I'm happy with the purchase of Neutron Advanced and thank you for your informative videos.


----------



## jcrosby (Nov 1, 2016)

Naoki Ohmori said:


> I almost took the comment literally at the moment.
> I'm happy with the purchase of Neutron Advanced and thank you for your informative videos.


Sorry! I forget sometimes that sarcasm doesn't translate well! 
Glad you like Neutron  It's one of my favorite new plugins as well.


----------



## jacobthestupendous (Nov 1, 2016)

Bought in at the last minute last night as usual. Good thing I did too; today the production bundle crossgrade price went up from £182.50 to £195.83.


----------



## jacobthestupendous (Nov 3, 2016)

Also, after the hassle that it was installing Iris 2 and the related samples, I expected the music production bundle install to be an involved process, but it was surprisingly fast and painless.


----------



## StatKsn (Nov 4, 2016)

I was not super impressed with Neutrino (too subtle and difficult to control) but recently played with Neutron. Wow!

As a heavy user of dynamic EQ/multiband comp, I must say that I really love the gentle and subtleness of Neutron's dynEQ. And most importantly it is light on CPU and GPU!


----------



## jcrosby (Nov 4, 2016)

StatKsn said:


> I was not super impressed with Neutrino (too subtle and difficult to control) but recently played with Neutron. Wow!
> 
> As a heavy user of dynamic EQ/multiband comp, I must say that I really love the gentle and subtleness of Neutron's dynEQ. And most importantly it is light on CPU and GPU!


Even with Neutrino across a whole mix? I find it pretty noticeable in a mix with many tracks or busses, and less subtle than Slate VCC. The combination of the two is really nice, everything gels together in a way that I really like.


----------



## Naoki Ohmori (Nov 4, 2016)

I haven't tried Neutrino yet and just watched some of the tutorial videos.
Yes, the effect is subtle but it was more noticeable than I expected.
I thought it would be handy if Neutrino had a universal control which enables users to bypass on/off several channels at the same time for A/B comparisons.

Or maybe do I miss the function?


----------



## ceemusic (Nov 4, 2016)

It doesn't have that feature & would benefit from assignable groups.


----------



## bryla (Nov 5, 2016)

Naoki Ohmori said:


> I haven't tried Neutrino yet and just watched some of the tutorial videos.
> Yes, the effect is subtle but it was more noticeable than I expected.
> I thought it would be handy if Neutrino had a universal control which enables users to bypass on/off several channels at the same time for A/B comparisons.
> 
> Or maybe do I miss the function?


You can do that in logic if every neutrino plugin is in the same slot on every channel. Select all tracks and hit the power button on one of the plugins.


----------



## Naoki Ohmori (Nov 5, 2016)

bryla said:


> You can do that in logic if every neutrino plugin is in the same slot on every channel. Select all tracks and hit the power button on one of the plugins.



Wow, It must be useful. Unfortunately I'm a Windows and Studio One user. I'm not sure if Studio One has the same feature. But apparently Reaper has the feature.


----------



## Mornats (Nov 10, 2016)

I've got a problem with the limiter in Neutron that could be completely down to me and my utter lack of ability but I thought I'd ask.

I've got Neutron on the master channel of my mix with an EQ and compressor on. On the limiter (which is on) I've got the ceiling set to -0.1db yet regardless of the limiter mode or the algorithm selected the audio will still hit (on my current track) +1.4db on the master channel in Reaper. This shouldn't happen with a limiter on should it? I usually use Reaper's js limiter set to -0.1db and nothing gets past it so I'm not sure if I'm just being a total noob and there's a key fundamental I need to know about how to use this limiter or whether there's something wrong with it. I highly suspect the former


----------



## Tysmall (Nov 10, 2016)

Mornats said:


> I've got a problem with the limiter in Neutron


the only thing I can think of is that the compressor is after the limiter in your chain and it's bringing the levels up. I would say check to make sure it's not in some soft limiting mode or "vintage" as a lot of companies call it, but you said it happens with every algorithm. I can't offer much because i'm not at my studio to open neutron and I don't use the limiter enough to know off the top of my head - but i've never had any re-callable problems so it's most likely a setting or external factor. Try turning off the compressor & eq and see what happens.


----------



## jcrosby (Nov 11, 2016)

Neutron's limiter is the last in chain and its order can't be changed. All of its algorithms are brickwall limiters and the ceiling is just that, a ceiling. You must either have left it turned off or turned it off accidentally, are following it with another processor, or have 'detect true peaks' turned on. (Even then that's pretty high.) I've been using it for 4 months and have never seen it clip with the limiter on unless I was looking at true peaks. (Which should still show up as 0 or under in your DAW.) Any chance you can upload a screen shot of your master buss and a screen shot of Neutron?


----------



## Mornats (Nov 11, 2016)

I had a good old tweak last night to see what could be causing it. My master buss had a volume envelope on that increased the volume of one half of the track by +2.7db. Once I took that off and swapped the compressor in Neutron for Solid Bus Comp I managed to tame the peaks. They'd still peak if I wasn't careful though. Still, I'd have thought that the limiter would still limit the peaks. Looking back at Neutron's compressor I did indeed have detect true peaks on in vintage mode.

I've moved some setting back round to get these screenshots so you can see what was going on.


----------



## RyanMcQuinn (Nov 11, 2016)

Hey I already own ozone 7 and alloy 2. Can anyone tell me if the track assistant (i think that's what it's called) and the eq masking feature are really making their mixes better and FASTER? Who is using this all the time now?


----------



## jcrosby (Nov 11, 2016)

Hmm, well Neutron's input is clipping but its output isn't. You can see the orange "-0.1" that it has .1 dB of headroom.
Are you sure that there still isn't a volume envelope or the fader or you might have been nudged accidentally? (Or are you saying all is good now and the automation sorted it?)


----------



## Living Fossil (Nov 12, 2016)

RyanMcQuinn said:


> Hey I already own ozone 7 and alloy 2. Can anyone tell me if the track assistant (i think that's what it's called) and the eq masking feature are really making their mixes better and FASTER? Who is using this all the time now?



I'm actually not using these features too much, however, i love Neutron's EQ section. 
The EQ masking feature for sure is nice.


----------



## Mornats (Nov 12, 2016)

jcrosby said:


> Hmm, well Neutron's input is clipping but its output isn't. You can see the orange "-0.1" that it has .1 dB of headroom.
> Are you sure that there still isn't a volume envelope or the fader or you might have been nudged accidentally? (Or are you saying all is good now and the automation sorted it?)



If you take a look at the volume envelope on the master channel I'd added just under 3db of volume to it so it's this that's causing the input the clip. I thought that a limiter would limit and peaks and make everything come out the other end at a max of 0.1db. I think the problem is that I don't really understand limiters, true peaks or anything about what I'm doing with it! I need to go and find a dummies guide to limiters and read up a bit  I did get it all sorted by addressing that +3db gain on the master buss and evening out the volume of the two sections using faders and velocity controls on the midi.


----------



## jcrosby (Nov 12, 2016)

Automation is usually post insert, in other words happens after Neutron's limiter. So it seems like you're clipping Neutron's input before the plugin, and it sounds like you think automating the master fader is adjusting Neutron's input volume. Does that sound that right?

Signal flow typically happens in the is order: Audio/instrument->insert effects->fader. So the automation causes volume changes to happen after Neutron. Your master fader is the final volume leaving your DAW. Turning that up over 0 will always clip... (Channel faders typically work like this too.)

What you want is to send everything to a buss before you send to the master fader and turn the buss down and send that top the master out... (VCA faders work too but that's a little more complicated if you don't normally use them. I don't know Reaper at all so don't know how or if they use these...)

Ture Peaks are a little complex. I'll write back later tonight explaining what they are and why they change whether you see clipping or not...


----------



## jcrosby (Nov 13, 2016)

@Mornats So 'True Peaks' are complicated. Theoretically they're not actually peaks (or clipping as we might normally call it). They're not peaks as far as your DAW or audio editing program is concerned, and they won't show up on your audio program's level meters as a result... They only show up on a plugin with True Peak metering...

So what in hell are they then?

True peaks (also commonly referred to as "Inter-Sample Peaks") are a byproduct of converting audio from a digtial signal into an analog signal, or converting audio between formats. So for example, every time you play a digital file from your computer on speakers there's the off chance you might hear clipping.

Why would that matter? The classic example is if you bought a CD that was mastered professionally. All should be well... it was produced to commercial standards after all.... But for some weird reason when you listened to it at home you heard occasional digital clicks or clipping.... Rare, but possible... Either way, whoever mastered this CD obviously had their head up their ass... You'd think, but it's more complicated...

The problem is as audio gets converted from digital 1s and 0s it has to be turned back into an analog waveform, using your soundcard or stereo's DAC converters. Unless played back with the same components playback system there's no guarantee that they won't interpolate the audio differently. Since you don't have the same signal path as that mastering engineer there's a TINY chance you'd experience this, but 99% time no one does... (IT'S RARE.)

So then why the hell does it matter if virtually no one ever experiences this? it's all theory right?

You would think so, and for a long time that was the scoop... But here's the catch... We live in the age of streaming audio... An example of this we have all heard, but may not have understood, would be listening to a youtube video and hearing clicks. Or listening to a soundcloud track and heard clipping... It shows up regularly now that we compress file sizes...

99% of the time CD/DVD or home entertainment playback are fine... The conversions work well and you don't hear it... When converting to a compressed format however, (like MP3 or AAC) that's a whole other beast... All of those theoretical 'True Peaks' rear their ugly head in a very audible way...

Converting audio to a lesser format means less dynamic range. The short version is as you throw away information you collapase dynamic range, and errors show up that we've all heard at some point listening online... So when you enable 'True Peak' limiting, or 'show true peaks' with an anlyzer you're looking at theoretical (but pretty accurate) peaks that will show up when compressing down to lower fidelity...

Showing true peaks is desigend to help you slide the output down to where you don't see Inter-Sample Peaks anymore... Limiting true peaks is designed to prevent them from happening in the first place...

So that's what Neutron's True Peak option is for. With it off you won't see peaks, and this generally alright for CDs... With it on you will see peaks, and this is important considering all audio winds up compressed online at some point....

As I said it's complex 

Best practice is to use Ozone 7 if you have it. If you don't, don't get freaked out... Use sensible headroom and bounced a few compressed files until it sounds good...

If you do have Ozone 7 and want some help post back or give me a holler....


----------



## Mornats (Nov 13, 2016)

Thank you so much for your awesome replies and taking the time to write some really good explanations. Your explanation of the signal chain answers the question of why my track was clipping perfectly.

All of my tracks get uploaded to Soundcloud although I actually listen to the 24 bit/44.1khz wavs on my Sony Xperia so I'd rarely hear any clicks from the compression on there. Good to know I can get around that now 

I don't have Ozone but I'm looking at Ozone Elements when it comes out on Tuesday (got a heads-up about it from the Time+Space newsletter but nothing else online yet). I'm building up a library of reference tracks that I can use to master against.

Thanks again!


----------



## jcrosby (Nov 14, 2016)

Mornats said:


> Thank you so much for your awesome replies and taking the time to write some really good explanations. Your explanation of the signal chain answers the question of why my track was clipping perfectly.
> 
> All of my tracks get uploaded to Soundcloud although I actually listen to the 24 bit/44.1khz wavs on my Sony Xperia so I'd rarely hear any clicks from the compression on there. Good to know I can get around that now
> 
> ...



You bet! 

There are also a number of other great limiters that catch true peaks. The most popular option to Ozone being FabFilter Pro-L...

Didn't know about them releasing elements. Looking it up now seems like a good option at a great price... 

Best of luck and enjoy the holidays!


----------

