# Williams-esque flute runs/arpeggios



## wmctavishmusic (May 6, 2014)

Hey all,

Just wondering if any one could share some insight as to the technical/composition side of those big ascending flute runs that are often found in action scenes - I've linked an example below.

Are these typically strict arpeggios, or more loose melodic ideas? Has anyone had any luck making faithful representations of this using samples? So far I've gotten closest using some form of staccato patch, but I would attribute that to the fast attack and short duration of those samples. I'm can't play the flute in any capacity, but I have doubts that this technique would actually be played as anything that resembles the feeling of staccato.. Seems like it would be fluid and nimble.

There's a nice big ascending-descending example at approximately the 0:26 mark, however they're littered through the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9SyrFaVsvU

Many thanks!


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## brunodegazio (May 6, 2014)

Sounds like a fast scale run, up and down, doubled with piccolo. Crescendo on the upward part of the run. 

I think the piccolo doubling is the distinctive part of the sound.


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## Simplesly (May 6, 2014)

Scale runs like that are usually written as some kind of tuplet. I have the best luck using legato patches and connecting all of the notes. Think about it, if those were played staccato, the real life player would be double or triple tounging while fingering each note rather than slurring, which would be much easier.


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## Leandro Gardini (May 6, 2014)

Keep in mind that those "flute runs" are not made by flutes and pic only. There's all the high woods playing usually in octaves and sometimes two octaves.
Sample Modeling woods can easily simulate any kind of fast run with great realism.


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## Rob (May 6, 2014)

Usually scales, but arpeggios can be used too, or a combination of the two... it's more or less the woodwind equivalent of harp glissandos. If runs are very extended they can get divided between different instruments... I'd use legato with a fast attack, rather than staccato patches. For a reference, see Wagner, somethinglike the "Ride of the valkyries"... It would work perfectly for Star Wars


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## Guy Rowland (May 6, 2014)

That sounds like the very thing Cinesamples' HollyWoodWinds was made for.


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## autopilot (May 6, 2014)

BWW has the same run builder as OSR - it's tops. I use it heaps.


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## ed buller (May 6, 2014)

BWW is very good. especially if you load up all the relevant instruments on separate tracks. very lifelike. But JW's runs are a thing of beauty and many times are not the obvious choice of notes either. You will have to get creative with the BWW runs ( picking modes and so forth )but it does sound marvellous 

e


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## gsilbers (May 6, 2014)

wmctavishmusic @ Tue May 06 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Just wondering if any one could share some insight as to the technical/composition side of those big ascending flute runs that are often found in action scenes - I've linked an example below.
> 
> ...




http://mikeverta.com/wordpress/podcasts ... es-johnny/


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## RiffWraith (May 6, 2014)

leogardini @ Tue May 06 said:


> Keep in mind that those "flute runs" are not made by flutes and pic only. There's all the high woods playing usually in octaves and sometimes two octaves.



True.

I don't know what the JW ex. is, but runs like that are usually flutes, picc, oboes, clarinet, and many times eng. horn.



leogardini @ Tue May 06 said:


> Sample Modeling woods can easily simulate any kind of fast run with great realism.



Have an ex.? All of the SM exs of this I have heard fail miserably at this.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 6, 2014)

These type of Runs, you can do pretty proper with the Hollywood Woodwinds library from CS. I bought them back in 2011 and I am still using this library for runs like that. Another library which is doing that are the Hollywood orchestral Woodwinds from Eastwest. For that you should load in Flute 1,2, the oboe, english, horn and clarinette. What kind of scales are used depends really on what you want to achieve, so lets say what context there is? Do you want to use them as a dynamic device or as a decorational colouring device? well, but one thing: Use these types of runs wisely, give them a context, and when you use, praise the moment. Runs are very often used completey wrong, and so I just say. ..


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## Goosewinkle (May 6, 2014)

Simplesly @ Tue May 06 said:


> Scale runs like that are usually written as some kind of tuplet.



Yeah, is there some reason for that? I've always wondered.


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## Simplesly (May 7, 2014)

Goosewinkle @ Tue May 06 said:


> Simplesly @ Tue May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Scale runs like that are usually written as some kind of tuplet.
> ...



Not really, I guess, except for when one needs note an odd number of notes in an even number of beats... Like a seven note scale run on beat 4, where the final note falls on beat 1 of the next measure. That could be a 7-note tuplet starting on beat 4.


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## Rob (May 7, 2014)

Goosewinkle @ 7th May 2014 said:


> Simplesly @ Tue May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Scale runs like that are usually written as some kind of tuplet.
> ...



I guess the reason is that you want to get a blurred effect, not a measured run... maybe superimposing different tuplets too.


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## Leandro Gardini (May 7, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Tue May 06 said:


> leogardini @ Tue May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Keep in mind that those "flute runs" are not made by flutes and pic only. There's all the high woods playing usually in octaves and sometimes two octaves.
> ...


SM woods are great for any kind of writing. I think all the early demos of the SM flute don't show its full potential.
Here is a piece I'm working on where I replaced most of the old woods for SM.

https://soundcloud.com/leandro-gardini/creatures-book


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## Mahlon (May 7, 2014)

leogardini @ Wed May 07 said:


> SM woods are great for any kind of writing. I think all the early demos of the SM flute don't show its full potential.
> Here is a piece I'm working on where I replaced most of the old woods for SM.
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/leandro-gardini/creatures-book[



That is EXCELLENT!

Mahlon


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## Rob (May 7, 2014)

Great job Leandro!


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## rayinstirling (May 7, 2014)

Yes superb use of these instruments


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## RiffWraith (May 7, 2014)

leogardini @ Wed May 07 said:


> SM woods are great for any kind of writing. I think all the early demos of the SM flute don't show its full potential.
> Here is a piece I'm working on where I replaced most of the old woods for SM.
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/leandro-gardini/creatures-book



Yeah - see, I don't think those runs sound good. Sorry, I just don't. I wouldn't say that they_ fail miserably _here, but good? No.

The cue itself, on the other hand, is a dandy piece of work.

Cheers.


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## synergy543 (May 7, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Wed May 07 said:


> The cue itself, on the other hand, is a dandy piece of work.
> 
> Cheers.



Hey dude, like, you really use the words "dandy" and "cheers" in LA? :lol: 

I say its frickin amazing Leandro!


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## Leandro Gardini (May 7, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Wed May 07 said:


> leogardini @ Wed May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > SM woods are great for any kind of writing. I think all the early demos of the SM flute don't show its full potential.
> ...


Not a problem if you don't like them, but I'm sure those runs sound like the best real players you can find. We just don't have any real orchestra recording for comparing them.

Thank you everybody for the kind comments.


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## brunodegazio (May 7, 2014)

leogardini @ Tue May 06 said:


> SM woods are great for any kind of writing. I think all the early demos of the SM flute don't show its full potential.
> Here is a piece I'm working on where I replaced most of the old woods for SM.
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/leandro-gardini/creatures-book




Amazing work, Leandro!


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## Farkle (May 7, 2014)

What a great cue, Leandro! Nice work!! 

Mike


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## iaink (May 7, 2014)

wmctavishmusic @ Tue May 06 said:


> There's a nice big ascending-descending example at approximately the 0:26 mark, however they're littered through the video.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9SyrFaVsvU
> 
> Many thanks!



Also, in your example the ww run is coloured by a harp gliss - that's very common.


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## renegade (May 7, 2014)

leogardini @ Wed 07 May said:


> SM woods are great for any kind of writing. I think all the early demos of the SM flute don't show its full potential.
> Here is a piece I'm working on where I replaced most of the old woods for SM.
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/leandro-gardini/creatures-book



Great writing and I think you get a great sense of what the SM woodwinds can do. To my taste the mix seems to lack a bit of clarity...like, even though you get the sense of room, you are not quite sure where precise the instruments are in that room. Maybe you've done too much "spatial work"? That's how I hear it anyway


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## impressions (May 7, 2014)

so, HWW is outdated? if only runs are required, most of them are covered perfectly in there.

I wouldn't use HWW if I needed a certain phrase, not just a run.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 8, 2014)

I don´t think that they are outdated. They still sound for certain things better than any other library, I have heard so far. The Hollywood Woodwinds by CS have this very specific rich and realistic thick Sound, because so far I know CS recorded the whole WW Ensemble together. The negative side (when there is one) is, that you can´t really make some very intimate stuff with it. By the way..for runs you can also use the Sus Patches in that library. The work pretty well, escpecially when you use the Staccato Patch on the highest note of the run. But to get back to the Topic: For that kind of runs like in the YT link, the HWW are very good for. At least my opinion.


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## bcarwell (May 8, 2014)

Re use of tuplets to make things come out rhythmically, I also recall several mocker-uppers who use the "octatonic" scale (there are two flavors as I recall) for runs and I think for the same reason but there may be other reasons.


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