# Mick Gordon opens up about Doom Eternal (dire read)



## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 9, 2022)

Horrifying read for those that dare:


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## TWY (Nov 9, 2022)

How dare they! Mick Gordon is the best!


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## Nashi_VI (Nov 9, 2022)

holy......


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## dunamisstudio (Nov 9, 2022)

For those that want a short video, yeah it's a really crappy situation. I love the music for Doom.


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## ibanez1 (Nov 9, 2022)

that was a tough read. As a person who just makes music as a hobby, I hope none of you that do this professionally ever face something this bad.


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## Akoustecx (Nov 9, 2022)

Holy crap, that is one unholy shit show.
Shame, as I thought Doom 2016 was a triumphant return to form for Id and I was looking forward to Eternal at some point.
I shall definitely be boycotting Id until such time as Marty Stratton is no longer involved and a public apology issued, and in all likelyhood that will extend to anyone under the Zenimax banner, which is greatly saddening as Arkane have produced 2 of the greatest, most completely realised games of all time with the Dishonored series and Deathloop was on my 'barely game these days, but I'll definitely get that at some point' list.


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## KEM (Nov 9, 2022)

I really hate that it had to happen to Mick, he’s a musical god and you can tell how passionate he was about the franchise and the music he was able to create for it, even before this recent statement I never liked seeing the public slander surrounding the soundtrack release, Mick is a hard working guy and I know myself and pretty much everyone else was willing to wait a little longer for a much better product, so for him to get dragged through the mud like this is just really sad to see. I hope to see Mick continue to work on huge projects and make great music, the success of the recent Doom games is in large part thanks to his contributions


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## Sombreuil (Nov 9, 2022)

Reading this makes me remember what Olivier Derivière once said, which was (in substance) how amateur the video game industry can be sometime...


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## Jerner (Nov 9, 2022)

Two main take aways from this:

Bureaucracy and shitty managers kill everything they touch.
Mick Gordon really likes bullet points.


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## Akoustecx (Nov 9, 2022)

Jerner said:


> Two main take aways from this:
> 
> Bureaucracy and shitty managers kill everything they touch.
> Mick Gordon really likes bullet points.


I guess he was just trying to offload some of the bullets he took for the team over the course of the project!


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 10, 2022)




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## Brasart (Nov 10, 2022)

What also baffles me is the apparent musical incompetence of both the Audio Director and the lead audio designer on such a big franchise.



Sombreuil said:


> Reading this makes me remember what Olivier Derivière once said, which was (in substance) how amateur the video game industry can be sometime...


If you think this kind of shitty situation is somehow exclusive to the games industry you’re in for a world of discoveries…


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## Nimrod7 (Nov 10, 2022)

Being under that kind of stress for years, working with such an incompetent group of people that demotivate you in every possible way, and still need to have inspiration to write 200+ hours of music... 

Gaming industry is sickening to say at least...
And an incompetent legal system in the states on top, which doesn't give the possibility for someone to defend his legal rights against a megacorp, unless it's a millionaire. 

So sad...


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## J-M (Nov 10, 2022)

I honestly felt sick when I read this. If it's all true (at least he has proof to back up his claims) then this is one ugly case. 

But to be honest, the whole debacle felt off right from the get go, even more so when Id posted their open letter on Reddit.


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## marius_dm (Nov 10, 2022)

While that sounds like how a very “ambitious” manager would act, the way Gordon described being harassed by fans in his personal life sounds a bit suspicious. I mean I doubt people care that much.
With things like this I’ve learned that each party has their own version of the truth constantly being reinforced in a feedback loop by misunderstandings. And I wouldn’t blame Mick Gordon for trying to give the guy a taste of his own medicine. But again, this is all speculation.


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## Crowe (Nov 10, 2022)

marius_dm said:


> While that sounds like how a very “ambitious” manager would act, the way Gordon described being harassed by fans in his personal life sounds a bit suspicious. I mean I doubt people care that much.
> With things like this I’ve learned that each party has their own version of the truth constantly being reinforced in a feedback loop by misunderstandings.


I dont think you quite understand who Mick Gordon is to not only Doom fans in general, but also to his own fans. He is not so much a composer as he is a very amiable, down to earth Rockstar.

Anyway, you say you doubt people care that much, which makes me doubt you understand how rabid Doom fans can be.

It sounds pretty much in line with my expectations.


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## Nashi_VI (Nov 10, 2022)

marius_dm said:


> While that sounds like how a very “ambitious” manager would act, the way Gordon described being harassed by fans in his personal life sounds a bit suspicious. I mean I doubt people care that much.
> With things like this I’ve learned that each party has their own version of the truth constantly being reinforced in a feedback loop by misunderstandings. And I wouldn’t blame Mick Gordon for trying to give the guy a taste of his own medicine. But again, this is all speculation.


Of course he is going to get his side of the story out, so of course it is safe to assume this is not the whole story (doesn't mean he is not in the right)....but unless you are a public figure being slandered online...i don't think you can speak of what type of harassement comes from that....you can find proof of that type of harrassement everywhere now, since there are so many "influencers" out there, but i understand that it is difficult to undersand why.
I think the misconception you are having is that you cannot understand why people care so much to go to that extend against Mick, but i have another view, i personally think those people are not fans of anything, they are not fans of Doom, they are not fans of Bethesda, they are people that are in search of a reason to harrass other people, and Marty gave them one (and i personally don't believe he did it unknowingly)....that is the sad reality.


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## marius_dm (Nov 10, 2022)

I guess that’s fair, I only ever played the original games back in the 90s. The 2016 release never registered for a lot of folks I know that grew up with the original game.


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## OHjorth (Nov 10, 2022)

This should probably be a mandatory read for all aspiring composers who want to enter the gaming industry.


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## MartinH. (Nov 10, 2022)

Couldn't stomach reading more than half in one go, and it's already heartbreaking :(. I had a hunch that this may have been a nightmare job, but the full extend seems to exceed what I thought possible by quite a lot. 




Akoustecx said:


> Holy crap, that is one unholy shit show.
> Shame, as I thought Doom 2016 was a triumphant return to form for Id and I was looking forward to Eternal at some point.
> I shall definitely be boycotting Id until such time as Marty Stratton is no longer involved and a public apology issued,


Don't hold your breath, people who've done worse are still in power and never apologized. But I understand the sentiment.




Akoustecx said:


> and in all likelyhood that will extend to anyone under the Zenimax banner, which is greatly saddening as Arkane have produced 2 of the greatest, most completely realised games of all time with the Dishonored series and Deathloop was on my 'barely game these days, but I'll definitely get that at some point' list.


That's something I don't agree with. Arkane are one of the last studios that makes immersive sim games - a genre that is both notoriously difficult to make and unprofitable. And they do a damn good job too. I bought Deathloop on release to support them making these kinds of games in the future. In that game you can already feel the shrinking budgets for their projects imho. Which is a real shame! 
Punishing an already struggling studio like Arkane with boycotts based on things they neither caused nor could do anything about isn't fair to all those people working there. The games industry is an absolute shit show, it is not unheard of that people employed there (not just freelancers - regular salary workers too) face very similar things as they happened to Mick, including working for months without getting paid. 

If you wanted to boycott all studios where some kind of exploitation is going on on some level, I have doubts even a single big studio would be left. And don't think with indie games it's that much better, most of these people just exploit _themselves_, by trying to make a living in such a thankless industry. Kind of like composers actually.
While you're at it you'd have to boycott pretty much all other forms of modern media as well. I don't think that'll help shape the future in a positive way for the workers, it will just increase the financial pressures and make everything even more cutthroat than it already is. We need systemic change...
But I don't want to start a political debate here.


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## prodigalson (Nov 10, 2022)

I'm not familiar with Mick Gordon and I hope this isn't a controversial take but reading this only reinforced something that I have learned in my professional life in the entertainment industry (i don't do games...it sounds fucking brutal):

Mick Gordon seems too nice.

I acknowledge it's easy for me to say this without having been in his shoes and I certainly don't mean to victim-blame here but reading the emails he screengrabbed and his timeline of events I could only feel like dude...stop starting every email to these assholes with an apology for taking their time! Stop hoping that if you behave deferentially and respectfully they will appreciate the respect and respect you back. They won't. Sometimes you have to meet bullys where they are and that means understanding your own value and demanding respect or walking away. 

I can't help but feel like he tried so hard to be the consummate professional but these assholes smelled blood and took advantage of it.


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## Honigdachs (Nov 10, 2022)

I encourage you to actually listen to one of those edits he mentions.



That thing is a fucking mess ...


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## gamma-ut (Nov 10, 2022)

marius_dm said:


> While that sounds like how a very “ambitious” manager would act, the way Gordon described being harassed by fans in his personal life sounds a bit suspicious. I mean I doubt people care that much.
> With things like this I’ve learned that each party has their own version of the truth constantly being reinforced in a feedback loop by misunderstandings. And I wouldn’t blame Mick Gordon for trying to give the guy a taste of his own medicine. But again, this is all speculation.



Gamers can be very, very weird and obsessive.

Exhibit A: "Gamergate" (2014-2015)


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## Nashi_VI (Nov 10, 2022)

prodigalson said:


> I'm not familiar with Mick Gordon and I hope this isn't a controversial take but reading this only reinforced something that I have learned in my professional life in the entertainment industry (i don't do games...it sounds fucking brutal):
> 
> Mick Gordon seems too nice.
> 
> ...


i tought the same thing reading it...to be fair, it is easier for us to talk when we know what the outcome of it all would be in the end.


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## gamma-ut (Nov 10, 2022)

Honigdachs said:


> I encourage you to actually listen to one of those edits he mentions.
> 
> 
> 
> That thing is a fucking mess ...



You want to know what is the sound of a jar of Pro Plus and 30 minutes sleep in 72 hours? This.


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## José Herring (Nov 10, 2022)

I read the open letter as well, tough to tell what is true in these cases but the director does put forth this idea that Mr. Gordon was somehow lax in his duties and that he didn't deliver what was promised. Knowing what it takes to get a gig like this I find that really hard to believe. Hearing the score I find it even harder to believe. Mick Gordon put forth his best and came up with something that not too many could do.

So the most likely scenario is this director was trying to save his own bacon by throwing the composer under the bus over a less than smooth and disappoiting OST release. He even mentions in his open letter that his company might be legally liable for refunds over not delivering the soundtrack with the game as promised.

It does seem that he painted a very bleak picture and quoted some things that Mr. Gordon has said via social media and used it against him. 

Lesson learned is you really need to watch what you say. We need to consider what is said on social media like talking to the press in the old days. You say only positive things and give little sound bites that can't be taken out of context. 

example: 
" Will you work on the franchise in the future?"
Answer: "This project was an opportunity of a lifetime, and I'd be honored to get the opportunity again". 

What you don't say, " Doubt we'll ever work together again". This statement can be used against you in all sorts of horrid ways.

But the director paved the way for a civil suite with his "open letter" that could have only been crafted and release through legal advice.

And, that my friends, is frightening.


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## signalpath (Nov 10, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Don't hold your breath, people who've done worse are still in power and never apologized.


"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley


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## Trash Panda (Nov 10, 2022)

My ex used to work at id Software. That company is such a shit show in how it's run, how they manage to put out games that aren't all as terrible as Rage is mind blowing.


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## cedricm (Nov 10, 2022)

An utter disgrace.
Unfortunately, I'm not surprised.
The tech world is full of incompetent dishonest millionaire piece of sh.ts.


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## MarkusS (Nov 10, 2022)

I’ve worked in game music for almost 20 years and too much of this sounds familiar and deja-vu to me. I also feel it got worse over the last years. Luckily there are also other experiences.


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## prodigalson (Nov 10, 2022)

Nashi_VI said:


> i tought the same thing reading it...to be fair, it is easier for us to talk when we know what the outcome of it all would be in the end.


of course and I don't mean to blame him at all because it seems like he did the best he could and we weren't there. (and I don't know the economic fundamentals of the gaming industry or his personally). I've just learned the hard way that certain types of people will treat you how they think YOU think you deserve to be treated and it's up to you to set those terms.


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## ka00 (Nov 10, 2022)

MarkusS said:


> I’ve worked in game music for almost 20 years and too much of this sounds familiar and deja-vu to me. I also feel it got worse over the last years.


If you had to gauge how often this happens, is it like 20% of the time? 40%? Just curious what this industry is like. Thanks


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## MartinH. (Nov 10, 2022)

prodigalson said:


> Mick Gordon seems too nice.
> [...] Sometimes you have to meet bullys where they are and that means understanding your own value and demanding respect or walking away.
> 
> I can't help but feel like he tried so hard to be the consummate professional but these assholes smelled blood and took advantage of it.


Do you know cases where that actually worked and the people didn't just get fired and replaced? Not talking small scale gigs with regular clients, I mean music for high stakes multi-million dollar productions. Also Hans doesn't count because when you're at the top it's like playing a different game I'd imagine.

Also how often can you "walk away" from such a high-stakes gig before you don't get a second chance on a project of that scale? Once? Twice?


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## Nashi_VI (Nov 10, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Do you know cases where that actually worked and the people didn't just get fired and replaced? Not talking small scale gigs with regular clients, I mean music for high stakes multi-million dollar productions. Also Hans doesn't count because when you're at the top it's like playing a different game I'd imagine.
> 
> Also how often can you "walk away" from such a high-stakes gig before you don't get a second chance on a project of that scale? Once? Twice?


Do you know cases where that actually did not work and the people just got fired, not payed or slandered for it and replaced anyway? Not talking small scale gigs with regular clients, I mean music for high stakes multi-million dollar productions. Also Hans doesn't count because when you're at the top it's like playing a different game I'd imagine.


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## MarkusS (Nov 10, 2022)

ka00 said:


> If you had to gauge how often this happens, is it like 20% of the time? 40%? Just If you had to gauge how often this happens, is it like 20% of the time? 40%? Just curious what this industry is like. Thanks


Haha, sorry, can’t answer that. I can only speak from my own experience and it’s not as uncommon as one might think (or hope). I’d like to add that Mick’s narrative here sounds 100% believable to me. It can be very rough. But there are also great and respectful people out there.


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## prodigalson (Nov 10, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Do you know cases where that actually worked and the people didn't just get fired and replaced? Not talking small scale gigs with regular clients, I mean music for high stakes multi-million dollar productions. Also Hans doesn't count because when you're at the top it's like playing a different game I'd imagine.


Yes. it works all the time. I'm not talking about being an asshole or a diva. I'm talking about being professional and respectful but asserting yourself in a way that shows you think your time is just as valuable as theirs. I guarantee you Marty whatever his name is is not starting emails apologizing for taking someones time or trying to explain/justify every conversation he's had. My belief based on personal experience in the entertainment industry (not million dollar AAA games but big-budget, commercial productions regardless) is that bullys respond to power and power is about perception and how you engage with people as much as anything else. 

Again, I'm not saying he did the wrong thing, I have no idea the pressures both personally and economically this kind of project presents and this particular conversation is just one small element of what was obviously a fucking mess. But stepping back for a moment there is a broader conversation to be had about how to engage with people in power professionally but in a way that also demonstrates power and demands respect. They probably would have fucked him over anyway but he may not have had to endure 2 more years of it.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 10, 2022)

prodigalson said:


> Yes. it works all the time. I'm not talking about being an asshole or a diva. I'm talking about being professional and respectful but asserting yourself in a way that shows you think your time is just as valuable as theirs. I guarantee you Marty whatever his name is is not starting emails apologizing for taking someones time or trying to explain/justify every conversation he's had. My belief based on personal experience in the entertainment industry (not million dollar AAA games but big-budget, commercial productions regardless) is that bullys respond to power and power is about perception and how you engage with people as much as anything else.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying he did the wrong thing, I have no idea the pressures both personally and economically this kind of project presents and this particular conversation is just one small element of what was obviously a fucking mess. But stepping back for a moment there is a broader conversation to be had about how to engage with people in power professionally but in a way that also demonstrates power and demands respect. They probably would have fucked him over anyway but he may not have had to endure 2 more years of it.


I have many thoughts on the whole thing that I currently do not have the energy or time to go into, but I do completely agree with your observations (though of course there are many other factors).

I remember watching an interview with Trey Parker once and he said something along the lines of "I don't care if this deal falls through or if we're done in Hollywood, Ill go back to Colorado and open a bakery" or something to that effect, and let me tell you, in my experience being prepared to walk away is one of your strongest bargaining tools. If they smell desperation on you, you're gone.


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## tc9000 (Nov 10, 2022)

I remember playing through Doom 2016 and it's astonishing how much the music is of that game. It's a huge part of it. I haven't got round to the sequel yet, but that first game is almost a musical experience with a bit of an (albeit quite excellent) FPS bolted on.


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## wunderflo (Nov 10, 2022)

I don't know anything about the game music industry, so I'm surprised you mostly describe it as such a horrible environment. I'd have assumed that it's actually one of the friendlier corners of the music industry, as the cake should be a bit bigger and you're not dependent on streaming platforms that keep most of the revenue. I have the feeling, video games are valued more than "just music" by consumers today. Do you have any explanations why there's so much exploitation going on there? Shouldn't 80$ video games that sometimes sell a few million copies allow the people who are working on them a relatively stable, safe and decent living? I'd have imagined, working for these big software corporations makes this more of a white-collar work experience than let's say producing an album for some artist or scoring a movie...


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 10, 2022)

marius_dm said:


> I mean I doubt people care that much


You underestimate nerds


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## Sea Squared (Nov 10, 2022)

MarkusS said:


> Haha, sorry, can’t answer that. I can only speak from my own experience and it’s not as uncommon as one might think (or hope). I’d like to add that Mick’s narrative here sounds 100% believable to me. It can be very rough. But there are also great and respectful people out there.


What would your advice be for avoiding the bad situations? Literally working on my first paid game at the moment. Hopefully first of many haha


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## MarkusS (Nov 10, 2022)

Sea Squared said:


> What would your advice be for avoiding the bad situations? Literally working on my first paid game at the moment. Hopefully first of many haha


I have to say, despite my experience I really didn’t see it coming in any of the cases (and I’d add in most cases it was literally impossible to anticipate). A good agreement (and sticking to it) certainly helps to navigate these waters.


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## Crowe (Nov 10, 2022)

prodigalson said:


> I'm not familiar with Mick Gordon and I hope this isn't a controversial take but reading this only reinforced something that I have learned in my professional life in the entertainment industry (i don't do games...it sounds fucking brutal):
> 
> Mick Gordon seems too nice.
> 
> ...


I can't get over this, it's been bothering me since I read it. I despise everything in this post.
Do you think it's easy to 'meet bullies where they are'? Do you think the responsibility for being exploited lies with the exploited?

We don't *try* to be 'consummate professionals'. Peace and kindness shouldn't be ridiculous, the onus for good working conditions should not be on the person attempting to be reasonable. There's no room for sharks in a communal workplace. In fact, I make it my solemn duty as a manager to exterminate each and every one of them.

"Stop hoping that if you behave deferentially and respectfully they will appreciate the respect and respect you back. They won't."

This is fucking awful. Just because one lives in a structure where you're surrounded by filth doesn't mean that should be normal.

You make it sound like, well, if you're not an asshole you really shouldn't exist because there's no place for you. You must be assertive. You must fight. Not everyone can be like this. This shouldn't be a requirement.

Don't say you 'don't mean to victim blame' and then blame the victim.

EDIT: AnD aNotHer ThINg
Starting your email with 'apologies for taking up your time' or something of the sort is pretty normal in a pretty big stretch of the world. It's called courtesy and it's a cultural thing. What the actual fuck.

Alright. That helped a bit. #triggered
Bottom line. Courtesy is not and should not be a crime. Defending assholes because that's your 'normal' is scummy.

EDIT AGAIN: Huh. I just realized. If being surrounded by assholes is 'normal', is that also a cultural thing? Could one be right in defending it? Hmmmm... No, I don't think so.


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## TWY (Nov 11, 2022)

prodigalson said:


> I'm not familiar with Mick Gordon and I hope this isn't a controversial take but reading this only reinforced something that I have learned in my professional life in the entertainment industry (i don't do games...it sounds fucking brutal):
> 
> Mick Gordon seems too nice.
> 
> ...


I agree. In this world you have to stand your ground, otherwise, others will simply take advantage of you, and then by the time you choose to fight back at the very last minute, it's too late. I love Mick's work, but as far the man himself goes, perhaps he was too nice. *I see many nice guys always being taken advantage of, no matter how hard they try to foster an environment that treats them well. That does not create an environment of integrity - it only further fosters cheap attacks and backstabbing amongst each other like an uneffective "cat fight". If you want to get rid of a filthy, cutthroat environment, you have to be alittle bit of a cutthroat yourself.*

Gotta stand your ground and get sufficient respect for yourself.

*This does not mean that you "cannot be a nice guy" - you can be a nice guy as long as you know how to deal with disrespect from others. *

Too many nice guys think too highly of themselves, where they think they have "better things to do than having to deal with disrespect". *I'm sorry - there's no short cut no matter how much of a "Father Teresa" you think you are. You HAVE to learn how to deal with disrespect.*


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## Crowe (Nov 11, 2022)

TWY said:


> I agree. In this world you have to stand your ground, otherwise, others will simply take advantage of you, and then by the time you choose to fight back at the very last minute, it's too late. I love Mick's work, but as far the man himself goes, perhaps he was too nice. *I see many nice guys always being taken advantage of, no matter how hard they try to foster an environment that treats them well. That does not create an environment of integrity - it only further fosters cheap attacks and backstabbing amongst each other like an uneffective "cat fight". If you want to get rid of a filthy, cutthroat environment, you have to be alittle bit of a cutthroat yourself.*
> 
> Gotta stand your ground and get sufficient respect for yourself.
> 
> *This does not mean that you "cannot be a nice guy" - you can be a nice guy as long as you know how to deal with disrespect from others. *Too many nice guys think too highly of themselves, where they think they have "better things to do than having to deal with disrespect". *I'm sorry - there's no short cut. You HAVE to learn how to deal with disrespect.*


Where do you people live? This is really awful.
How on earth did we get to a point where getting stabbed in the back is the fault of the person being stabbed? You cannot fight fire with fire. That creates more fire.

It's no wonder things never change or get better if we just accept bad work culture is how it should be.



> Gotta stand your ground and get sufficient respect for yourself.
> 
> *I'm sorry - there's no short cut. You HAVE to learn how to deal with disrespect.*


What you're saying here is that if you're not this kind of person, there is no place for you. Must be nice to be able to think things are that simple.

EDIT:
Apologies if this all comes across as aggressive, I feel workspace safety is paramount and that everyone should be able to feel safe, heard and accepted on the workfloor. Not sure if that's just a European thing of something. 

I'm not at all passive myself and believe it's my duty to protect my team, workers, or any colleagues that are not able to be 'assertive' themselves. Because not everyone can be like that, but they still have a right to exist.
Basically, I'm the kind of person that at hearing the words "Meh, it's her own fault for not saying 'no' more loudly" wants to implant knives into peoples brains.


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## Honigdachs (Nov 11, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Where do you people live? This is really awful.
> How on earth did we get to a point where getting stabbed in the back is the fault of the person being stabbed? You cannot fight fire with fire. That creates more fire.
> 
> It's no wonder things never change or get better if we just accept bad work culture is how it should be.


I think you're misunderstanding a little bit. I don't think that prodigalson and TWY were trying to say that you have to learn to be as much of an asshole as possible, or tried to blame the victim. I think what they're saying is that it's better to be prepared to not allow oneself to be shamelessly taken advantage of because there's a lot of people who will try to do that without batting an eye. Some people will want to fuck you over and stab you in the back no matter how nice you are to them because they don't care, and they're not interested in playing nice. In such cases, it can be very important to set boundaries.


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## Crowe (Nov 11, 2022)

Honigdachs said:


> I think you're misunderstanding a little bit. I don't think that prodigalson and TWY were trying to say that you have to learn to be as much of an asshole as possible, or tried to blame the victim. I think what they're saying is that it's better to be prepared to not allow oneself to be shamelessly taken advantage of because there's a lot of people who will try to do that without batting an eye. Some people will want to fuck you over and backstab you no matter how nice you are to them because they don't care. In such cases, it can be very important to set boundaries.


I don't think I am.



> Some people will want to fuck you over and backstab you no matter how nice you are to them because they don't care. In such cases, it can be very important to set boundaries.


What I'm saying is that the problem here is with the people who want to fuck you over. The opinion here seems to be that it's the job of the person being fucked over, not to be. That's ridiculous. Assertiveness is not a given. Not everyone can be like that. It's really confusing to me how it seems like ya'll think you can just 'be that way'.


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## TWY (Nov 11, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Where do you people live? This is really awful.


It is awful. In case you haven't noticed.


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## gamma-ut (Nov 11, 2022)

TWY said:


> I agree. In this world you have to stand your ground, otherwise, others will simply take advantage of you, and then by the time you choose to fight back at the very last minute, it's too late. I love Mick's work, but as far the man himself goes, perhaps he was too nice.



Posts like this suggest there is some magic form of words that stops the kind of narcissistic manager that's at the centre of this debacle in their tracks. There isn't. If you read the Reddit post from Stratton, it's a masterpiece of gaslighting and deceit. The way in which he admits Mick wasn't contracted to do the OST at the point Stratton announced and then handwaves it away as "well, we didn't want to disturb in the middle of not doing his job properly" is just breathtaking. You're in a no-win situation with this kind of person. You're only real hope is that there is some bigger fish higher up who will take your side and playing them at their own game, which is a soul-destroying way to proceed. You can to some extent use excessive politeness coupled with a "I believe you agreed to this on xx-xx-20xx, and I did that" is helpful for any future paper trail. 

But you can write "happy birthday" and someone like that will find a way to twist it in a public statement. Walk away from the job? Threaten to walk away from the job? Even at the start, that carries some element of risk given Mick's contribution to the earlier game. Fans will ask "why isn't Mick working on this job?". I'd bet real money that someone like Stratton would go on Reddit to describe him as a greedy primadonna who wanted too much money and how that disrespects loyal fans like you. 

Looking at this, I think Mick may have actually taken one of the few viable paths open to him. I'd also bet that that six-figure sum would have never materialised – or simply delayed on multiple technicalities – but they'd have his NDA. Even then, the door only really opened because of Microsoft's takeover and the possibility that they'd want to clean house, not least because there would be more scrutiny on a company of that size encouraging toxic workplace culture than an independent Bethesda.


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## Crowe (Nov 11, 2022)

TWY said:


> It is awful. In case you haven't noticed.


Indeed. Which is why we are working to make shit less awful.

Which doesn't work when the popular mindset doesn't shift away from 'well, then they shouldn't get themselves into a position where they can get fucked over.'

And people call me a doomer. ffs.

What was the saying? Evil thrives when good people do nothing?


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## tmhuud (Nov 11, 2022)

Either we are missing some of the real story or Marty is certifiable.


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## TWY (Nov 11, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Indeed. Which is why we are working to make shit less awful.
> 
> Which doesn't work when the popular mindset doesn't shift away from 'well, then they shouldn't get themselves into a position where they can get fucked over.'


I wouldn't be so naive as to depend on a mindset shift where "every individual is a very responsible human being". There will ALWAYS be a bunch of dirtbags out there, generation after generation. The key is to be prepared.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 11, 2022)

Thing is, composing for linear media like films and tv episodes is a long-established process, with various routes to a single, easily-defined goal - put one piece of music after another until the end credits roll.

But composing for non-linear media like games is not nearly as well-established, with various routes to various goals - and those goals are often not possible to define, since they can be controlled / defined by the eventual players of the finished product on the fly. You can't just write a piece of music to take a character from the airlock, down a dark hallway, and into the command center where they'll battle enemies - what if they're "campers" who want to lurk in the middle of the hallway for ten minutes while they chat to viewers on stream? (I can't believe I just typed something so stupid.) Now the music has to be able to go into a holding pattern, looping while still remaining interesting, and seamlessly shift into high gear when the player finally decides to advance to the command center. Multiply that problem times one zillion.

So while we do have a couple of decades of convention in that department, it's nothing like the 100+ years of linear cinematic scoring convention and examples that composers can refer to. And the non-linear scoring conventions, and the capabilities of the platforms, are still in massive flux. More stems, more storage capabilities, immersive audio and dynamic effects that are controlled by player actions.... it's crazy and getting crazier every year. As the developers want to implement flashy new features in the audio engine, they naturally want the score elements to take advantage of them in interesting ways. By the time a composer is halfway done with a score, the dev might come back to them requesting that previously-approved cues be re-configured to take advantage of some new capabilities that they finally managed to get working.

Not to say that any of that was at the root of Mick's problems with Marty and ID / Bethesda, but the additional logistical requirements in game scoring, combined with the non-linear aspect, all add up to a pile of potential problems that make linear scoring look like a cakewalk. Reading Mick's account, it does appear that most of his problems resulted from ham-handed actions in what would be, in film-production parlance, the "production" department. Like, if that was a film project that had so many go-backs, revisions, unsigned contracts, un-paid invoices, and unrealistic deadlines... any film composer's half-capable agent would have said, "It's a shit-show over there, let's get you off that gig asap" and crowbar-ed their guy out of there, and let the lawyers argue over the kill fee. And that kill fee (if there was one) would have been clearly delineated in a contract that would have been signed long before the composer had put in so much work that they'd be uncomfortable just walking away with nothing and dragging the project folder to the trash.

The power structure and production workflow of linear scoring for films and tv is long-established, and any deviations from those smooth-running processes are like sand in the gears. But the power structures and production workflow in the games industry is still maturing and changing, and as much as the big money-making corporations would love to believe they've got it all figured out, they don't. They just don't. Some of these companies are growing in size and revenue much faster than they're growing in experience, and many of the production staff and executives are young and plainly in wayyyy over their heads when it comes to dealing with creatives, deadlines, shifting goals, etc.

That said, I can sort of understand why Mick kept soldiering on to the bitterest of ends. His earlier Doom score was well-received, and widely perceived as a landmark accomplishment in game music. So why wouldn't he think the next installment was a chance to go even higher? It's ludicrous to anticipate that they'd use roughs and demos to flesh out un-contracted-for minutes, and have some invisible dude chop bits together in such amateurish manner, and then put himself down as a co-writer of the cues. That's ridiculous.

So the lack of long-established process and procedures, both on the composing side and also on the production side, is a recipe for situations like Mick's, although I think it's fair to say his experience is the worst-case scenario...

....so far.


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## TWY (Nov 11, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> Posts like this suggest there is some magic form of words that stops the kind of narcissistic manager that's at the centre of this debacle in their tracks. There isn't. If you read the Reddit post from Stratton, it's a masterpiece of gaslighting and deceit. The way in which he admits Mick wasn't contracted to do the OST at the point Stratton announced and then handwaves it away as "well, we didn't want to disturb in the middle of not doing his job properly" is just breathtaking. You're in a no-win situation with this kind of person. You're only real hope is that there is some bigger fish higher up who will take your side and playing them at their own game, which is a soul-destroying way to proceed. You can to some extent use excessive politeness coupled with a "I believe you agreed to this on xx-xx-20xx, and I did that" is helpful for any future paper trail.
> 
> But you can write "happy birthday" and someone like that will find a way to twist it in a public statement. Walk away from the job? Threaten to walk away from the job? Even at the start, that carries some element of risk given Mick's contribution to the earlier game. Fans will ask "why isn't Mick working on this job?". I'd bet real money that someone like Stratton would go on Reddit to describe him as a greedy primadonna who wanted too much money and how that disrespects loyal fans like you.
> 
> Looking at this, I think Mick may have actually taken one of the few viable paths open to him. I'd also bet that that six-figure sum would have never materialised – or simply delayed on multiple technicalities – but they'd have his NDA. Even then, the door only really opened because of Microsoft's takeover and the possibility that they'd want to clean house, not least because there would be more scrutiny on a company of that size encouraging toxic workplace culture than an independent Bethesda.


You've ignored everything else about my post and only highlighted a sentence to make your point.
Full of integrity, aren't ya!


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## gamma-ut (Nov 11, 2022)

TWY said:


> You've ignored everything else about my post and only highlighted a sentence to make your point.
> Full of integrity, aren't ya!



I didn't ignore it. And your response suggests you didn't actually read my post properly. Why not let me know which bit you thought I ignored: that would work better as a rebuttal if you believe there is one to be made rather than "full of integrity". But you should totally give that a go on the next person you work for.

What is also interesting is that you interpreted my post as a personal attack on you. I would caution that this is not a good kind of assumption to make given the context of this discussion.


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## TWY (Nov 11, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> I didn't ignore it. And your response suggests you didn't actually read my post properly. Why not let me know which bit you thought I ignored: that would work better as a rebuttal if you believe there is one to be made rather than "full of integrity". But you should totally give that a go on the next person you work for.


I did read it. I meant that having to deal with disrespect in the industry consists of everything you said. You talked like as if I didn't know any of such on how to deal with. Integrity is important. Which means, dealing with those who don't have it.


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## MartinH. (Nov 11, 2022)

Nashi_VI said:


> Do you know cases where that actually did not work and the people just got fired, not payed or slandered for it and replaced anyway? Not talking small scale gigs with regular clients, I mean music for high stakes multi-million dollar productions. Also Hans doesn't count because when you're at the top it's like playing a different game I'd imagine.





prodigalson said:


> Yes. it works all the time. I'm not talking about being an asshole or a diva. I'm talking about being professional and respectful but asserting yourself in a way that shows you think your time is just as valuable as theirs. I guarantee you Marty whatever his name is is not starting emails apologizing for taking someones time or trying to explain/justify every conversation he's had. My belief based on personal experience in the entertainment industry (not million dollar AAA games but big-budget, commercial productions regardless) is that bullys respond to power and power is about perception and how you engage with people as much as anything else.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying he did the wrong thing, I have no idea the pressures both personally and economically this kind of project presents and this particular conversation is just one small element of what was obviously a fucking mess. But stepping back for a moment there is a broader conversation to be had about how to engage with people in power professionally but in a way that also demonstrates power and demands respect. They probably would have fucked him over anyway but he may not have had to endure 2 more years of it.



I don't know people doing those high stakes scoring jobs. It was a genuine question, I'd be happy to learn this actually works, I'd just be surprised. I'm not a composer by the way. And the freelance gigs I do are very low stakes in comparison. Generally I pick my clients to be nice people and stay with the clients I know. I had one experience early on where I didn't get paid for months after I completed and delivered my work. On the next job for the same client I demanded to get paid before handing over the deliverables. Sounds reasonable, right? Well, they deprioritized the project in a "fine, then we don't need it now" manner, dragged their feet for almost a year, then asked again, I said "sure, send me the money and I'll send the files over", they paid, I delievered, and then I was blacklisted for _years _at that company. When later working again for them in an assistant type role for a colleague, he had to assure them he'd be the only one writing them invoices and they'd have nothing to do with any other freelancers. So my experience with making totally reasonable demands in a friendly but professional way was pretty bad personally. 
And on occasion when declining a job and suggesting other people who I think could do the work I've gotten weird hesitant questions like "Is he difficult to work with?". I sense some amount of anxiety among clients regarding friction in the work progress.

I know one story of a composer standing his ground against a bully regarding tone of feedback and that actually did work well as far as I know. But it was a low stakes gig. 

And I know a story of an art outsourcing studio working for [a big corp] which dragged their feet on contract work, so the studio had been working unpaid for months already. Then [a big corp] started making totally unreasonable demands in a rather unfriendly tone (don't remember the details but it was something ludicrous like commiting on per-asset prices for deliverables without even knowing what those assets are going to be), and the studio politely replied saying that they can't work that way and asked for future communication to be sent in a friendlier tone. Wanna guess what they got back?
"We're [a big corp], we talk to our contractors however we want." 
I'm not sure if the budget for the project was already 7 figures or still 6 figures, but it was a multiple people working for many months kind of project size. Hence my asking about (financially) high stakes jobs specifically. The people in charge for those in big corps just seem to be "cut from a different cloth".





charlieclouser said:


> The power structure and production workflow of linear scoring for films and tv is long-established, and any deviations from those smooth-running processes are like sand in the gears. But the power structures and production workflow in the games industry is still maturing and changing, and as much as the big money-making corporations would love to believe they've got it all figured out, they don't. They just don't. Some of these companies are growing in size and revenue much faster than they're growing in experience, and many of the production staff and executives are young and plainly in wayyyy over their heads when it comes to dealing with creatives, deadlines, shifting goals, etc.



Sounds about right from what I hear.





SimonCharlesHanna said:


> "I don't care if this deal falls through or if we're done in Hollywood, Ill go back to Colorado and open a bakery" or something to that effect, and let me tell you, in my experience being prepared to walk away is one of your strongest bargaining tools. If they smell desperation on you, you're gone.


This is something I actually agree with. And I'm more prepared to walk away from jobs than ever. But it's a privilege to financially be in a situation where you can afford to do that. Not everyone can. In fact the systems in many places are set up to keep people financially weak enough that they are easy to exploit.




tc9000 said:


> I remember playing through Doom 2016 and it's astonishing how much the music is of that game. It's a huge part of it. I haven't got round to the sequel yet, but that first game is almost a musical experience with a bit of an (albeit quite excellent) FPS bolted on.


No joke, I wouldn't even have finished Doom 2016 without that great soundtrack. Doom Eternal is a much better game imho.




wunderflo said:


> Do you have any explanations why there's so much exploitation going on there? Shouldn't 80$ video games that sometimes sell a few million copies allow the people who are working on them a relatively stable, safe and decent living?


They are very high risk endeavors with hundreds (sometimes even upwards of a thousand) people working on a project for years. Sometimes they pour hundreds of millions into the marketing budget, and they totally can still flop and fail to recoup that investment. Gamers are a fickle bunch and likely better informed than the average person that goes to see a marvel movie at a cinema.
For indie games it's even worse, the overwhelming majority of games does not break even.


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## TWY (Nov 11, 2022)

Once, I worked with an arthouse director together on a commercial short film project (I know, arthouse people also need to make a living). The brief stated that the client wanted a score that was like Inception.

So I did a blockbuster-style score, and this director *was fine with everything for the 3 weeks I did so far*....up to the point where audio post production came in. I handed my stems over the mixer. *This ARTHOUSE director then instructed the mixer to remove almost ALL of the stems, except a minimal one. To his "artistic tastes". *The mixer also butchered my score by copying and pasting a very emotional piano cue, and the whole thing was ruined.

The producers were shocked by the final product, *and they thought they made a costly mistake with hiring the composer (me)! *

I didn't realize this went on until the official release of the project. (_with all due respect to the working process, I stupidly had trust in everyone including the audio post mixer and director_)

I immediately had to discreetly tell the producers that this wasn't MY fault - it was the director's. He could have told me UPFRONT that he wanted an arthouse score (_which would lead to the commercial producers intervening, and I think he wanted to avoid that confrontation like an arthouse p*ssy_). *But instead, he LED ME ON*.

I had them listen to my original blockbuster version - but it was too late. The project had been released.

*Sheesh, a selfish, disrespectful individual can ruin your reputation this way too.*

From then on, I swore that I will make sure I'm at the dubbing stage along with the mixer to ensure that this kind of bullshit doesn't ever happen again.


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## Nashi_VI (Nov 11, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> I don't know people doing those high stakes scoring jobs. It was a genuine question, I'd be happy to learn this actually works, I'd just be surprised. I'm not a composer by the way. And the freelance gigs I do are very low stakes in comparison. Generally I pick my clients to be nice people and stay with the clients I know. I had one experience early on where I didn't get paid for months after I completed and delivered my work. On the next job for the same client I demanded to get paid before handing over the deliverables. Sounds reasonable, right? Well, they deprioritized the project in a "fine, then we don't need it now" manner, dragged their feet for almost a year, then asked again, I said "sure, send me the money and I'll send the files over", they paid, I delievered, and then I was blacklisted for _years _at that company. When later working again for them in an assistant type role for a colleague, he had to assure them he'd be the only one writing them invoices and they'd have nothing to do with any other freelancers. So my experience with making totally reasonable demands in a friendly but professional way was pretty bad personally.
> And on occasion when declining a job and suggesting other people who I think could do the work I've gotten weird hesitant questions like "Is he difficult to work with?". I sense some amount of anxiety among clients regarding friction in the work progress.
> 
> 
> ...


Don't worry, i know yours was a genuine question, that is why i flipped it for you, because, as you sadly experienced for yourself, most of the times musicians are the nice ones (not always of course) and they tend to trust the "higher up" that are in charge of their job, and sometimes it definitely works and the friction that arise on a project can then mellow down and at the end everyone is happy...but a lot of times, especially when the red flags are so many like in this case,or like your personal case it end up very badly.
Walking aways from a job in the first place, let alone one that can set you up for years, i would imagine it is something very very hard to do, so i completely understand your point, one must always have to consider the pros and cons of the decision, it is like (not the same thing of course) when a wife has a violent husband and they have children together and she has to make the decision as to if and when to get a divorce...it is not that easy as it seems from the outside.
Also, for us consumers, whos to say that, in the end, the DOOM Eternal soundtrack didn't turn out better than it would have been without all the stress and anger that Mick experienced composing it.


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## Daryl (Nov 11, 2022)

This is a terrible story, but the crux of it is that the original contract was abusive and should never be signed. The idea that you can write as many cues as asked for, and you only get paid for what is approved, is just not acceptable. No other industry would agree to this.

In film, the slightly shitty carrot is that you get Royalties when the film is shown on TV. For games it is very rare to get any kind of back-end, so to all intents and purposes it is a buyout. So like orchestrating. Or arranging, in terms of payment.

So, if you were arranging, you'd get paid for every minute delivered, and then get paid for all revisions. None of this writing for nothing nonsense.

The 2nd issue is not having a payment plan. The idea of writing for 11 months, on a buyout project, without payment is ridiculous. 

The 3rd issue is allowing the situation to fester and keep delivering, even though the contract had been broken many times. Cutting losses is an important business decision. and composers are often too scared to do this.


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## José Herring (Nov 11, 2022)

TWY said:


> I agree. In this world you have to stand your ground, otherwise, others will simply take advantage of you, and then by the time you choose to fight back at the very last minute, it's too late. I love Mick's work, but as far the man himself goes, perhaps he was too nice. *I see many nice guys always being taken advantage of, no matter how hard they try to foster an environment that treats them well. That does not create an environment of integrity - it only further fosters cheap attacks and backstabbing amongst each other like an uneffective "cat fight". If you want to get rid of a filthy, cutthroat environment, you have to be alittle bit of a cutthroat yourself.*
> 
> Gotta stand your ground and get sufficient respect for yourself.
> 
> ...


You are missing the point. This isn't a "respect vs. disrespect" issue. Who really cares about that. 
This is a legal battle and the director deliberately and with malice outright attacked the composer. He laid grounds for a lawsuit involving a lot of money potentially. Slandered the composer publically thus potentially effecting future potential hires as this is now on the internet. If one were interested in hiring Mick Gordon and Googled his name, this is now part of permanent internet history.

It's a bad, bad situation and whether Mr. Gordon was "too nice" or not mean enough or whatever has little to no relevance in this situation. It's a potential legal suit which is alluded to, loss reputation and the idea spread that the composer didn't deliver. And, that idea being spread all around the globe.

We composers we're adjuncts in the field of media entertainment. We don't have the clout of actors, or the power of a director or make the work like producers, ect. We rely on goodwill to get hired as well as not get fired and replaced. 

If Mick comes off as a jerk and too hard to work with it will have profound impacts on his career. So you're "nice" and accommodating. That's just part of being a composer. As good as Mick Gordon is there are others that can do the same work. So you play along and you get along even if the working relationship gets abusive. It won't last forever. You stay positive and make it to the end. It's just part of the game.

It's the reason I feel that not a lot of women get involved in media music. For them a toxic relationship usually involves far more danger than just a director being a jerk.


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## Nashi_VI (Nov 11, 2022)

José Herring said:


> You are missing the point. This isn't a "respect vs. disrespect" issue. Who really cares about that.
> This is a legal battle and the director deliberately and with malice outright attacked the composer. He laid grounds for a lawsuit involving a lot of money potentially. Slandered the composer publically thus potentially effecting future potential hires as this is now on the internet. If one were interested in hiring Mick Gordon and Googled his name, this is now part of permanent internet history.
> 
> It's a bad, bad situation and whether Mr. Gordon was "too nice" or not mean enough or whatever has little to no relevance in this situation. It's a potential legal suit which is alluded to, loss reputation and the idea spread that the composer didn't deliver. And, that idea being spread all around the globe.
> ...


Would you say the same thing about an abusive relatioship between an husband and a wife with children?

"It's just part of the game" maybe...but only if you allowed it to be part of the game.....wouldn't it be better if we, as composers/musicians/artists didn't allow it to be part of the game?.


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## José Herring (Nov 11, 2022)

Nashi_VI said:


> Would you say the same thing about an abusive relatioship between an husband and a wife with children?
> 
> "It's just part of the game" maybe...but only if you allowed it to be part of the game.....wouldn't it be better if we, as composers/musicians/artists didn't allow it to be part of the game?.


Way different. You aren't married to your director, production company, it's business. As long as it doesn't get too out of hand, you'll be fine. Gotta wear your big boy pants and realize, there a some people out there that just aren't very nice. Okay big deal as long as the relationship is mutually beneficial then at the end of the project you just go your separate ways. It's not a life agreement. It's a business contract. 
Sure if it gets "too abusive" then you have the option of just not working for that person again.


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## AndrewS (Nov 11, 2022)

The only thing this has convinced me of is that there's a lot more to this story than either side will divulge. It's hard to take either Mick or Marty's word as gospel when both of them have so much invested and every reason to present their own side in the best light.


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## Uiroo (Nov 11, 2022)

AndrewS said:


> The only thing this has convinced me of is that there's a lot more to this story than either side will divulge. It's hard to take either Mick or Marty's word as gospel when both of them have so much invested and every reason to present their own side in the best light.


I'd wait for the reaction. 
Mick fired his shots, and what counts now is if they sue him over any claims he made. Because they will if they have proof, and they almost have to at this point. If they don't, they're admitting their wrongdoing as far as I'm concerned.


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## M_Helder (Nov 11, 2022)

Jesus Christ, what a trainwreck… triple AAA, my ass. Huge respect for Mick’s work ethic and pulling through this mess in the end. The amount of psychological abuse here is mind-boggling. And 400+ minutes of music? Sheesh…

One thing that really struck me though, is how can one be a Lead Audio Designer while completely disregarding basic music production fundamentals on a publicly available commercial release?


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 11, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Way different. You aren't married to your director, production company, it's business. As long as it doesn't get too out of hand, you'll be fine. Gotta wear your big boy pants and realize, there a some people out there that just aren't very nice. Okay big deal as long as the relationship is mutually beneficial then at the end of the project you just go your separate ways. It's not a life agreement. It's a business contract.
> Sure if it gets "too abusive" then you have the option of just not working for that person again.


Yes, exactly.

Another problem is that people in this business wear their abuse as a badge of honor, frankly.



M_Helder said:


> Huge respect for Mick’s work ethic and pulling through this mess in the end.


He should've told Marty to go to hell. Mick should not have put up with this shit at all.

A former teacher of mine used to work for a big Hollywood composer, a guy who has done both famous movies and video games.

My teacher was the score-coordinator for this guy. Anyway, he was telling me that he got yelled at and I believe shoes thrown at him, simply because when he booked an appointment with some producer, he said on the phone "X already has an appointment that day, but I can fit you in on this one."

Apparently, the composer wanted him to say "X is unavailable that day" but instead resorted to just violent outbursts. My teacher wore these sorts of abuses as a sort of badge; he was proud of these experiences and felt it molded him more or less.

I told him I thought it was bullshit. If the composer wanted the phones answered a certain way, he should've said so ahead of time, and I would've just punched this guy in the face if he tried it on me.

Another guy I knew, when he was younger, worked for a big Hollywood composer as an assistant. The first week he was there, he absolutely did not want to be anything other than the last person to leave. So it was already 10 at night when he was leaving, but as he did, he saw another car was still in the parking lot. So he wound up staying all the way until like 6 AM the next morning. Turns out that other car was just the night cleaning staff of the building.

Here is a hard fact most aspiring or just committed composers need to learn: You're not saving lives and changing the world here; you're composing music for consumer products that ultimately exist to make some corporation money. There is no sense in making it the pillar of your very identity and putting up with shitbags and abuse just for the "joy" of continuing to compose for said products.

Mick has a family. My guy, you can't go 11 months without pay. Tell Marty to pay you or blow a goat and if they still want to make working for them a nightmare, you are already one of the most sought-after video game composers and I have zero doubt could've walked away and straight into another, better AAA project that would actually pay.

Composers need to learn to say "no", and their inability to do so is why in video games, you basically can't even be a composer anymore. You have to be the one-stop shop for ALL things audio (Can you record voice actors too?) and they expect you to do it all for $50 and a ham sandwich because some other guys, who have made this their very identity and are desperate, just couldn't say "no" to assholes taking advantage of them.


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## M_Helder (Nov 11, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Yes, exactly.
> 
> Another problem is that people in this business wear their abuse as a badge of honor, frankly.
> 
> ...


Hey, Chris. Have you ever worked on a high budget AAA project as a sole composer tasked with a singular job of making an equally good or a better version of your previous project, already regarded as a bloody masterpiece?

If not, than I am not sure you are in a position to judge or give any advice, mate. It is easy for us on the benches here.

P.S. just realised, that i sound passive-aggressive here. Sorry, not my intent. Just that the pressure is probably so immense, especially when your name is directly associated with the project, that it is not a small feat to just walk away from it.


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## tc9000 (Nov 11, 2022)

I don't know anything about the gaming industry, or commercial music. But I have worked with a lot of different people, among whom were some very capable managers and some completely incapable managers.

One thing you see in big companies is a greater likelihood of senior people who absolutely suck at what they do. This causes a lot of problems, but they thrive because their main skill is surviving the continuous failures that they cause and contribute to. These people are artists at making sure others take the blame when the **** hits the fan (and it does, often!), and scooping up the credit when things go well despite their own failings... and the cycle continues. You will often find these folks in areas where other people are very passionate about what they do, because the passion that others have will make them tolerate that crap for longer. Once these inept survivors get the power of a legal team behind them, the scope to bully, and most importantly, _silence _their critics is massively increased.

The only thing that can protect you in these situations is rational, well-drafted and thus water-tight written agreements, and of course, those are often thin on the ground in these environments. By design.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 11, 2022)

TWY said:


> Once, I worked with an arthouse director together on a commercial short film project (I know, arthouse people also need to make a living). The brief stated that the client wanted a score that was like Inception.
> 
> So I did a blockbuster-style score, and this director *was fine with everything for the 3 weeks I did so far*....up to the point where audio post production came in. I handed my stems over the mixer. *This ARTHOUSE director then instructed the mixer to remove almost ALL of the stems, except a minimal one. To his "artistic tastes". *The mixer also butchered my score by copying and pasting a very emotional piano cue, and the whole thing was ruined.
> 
> ...


Massive communication errors higher up in the decision chain, like your story, are the kind of problems that are not supposed to happen when they're all "experienced professionals". That's the kind of thing that the 100+ years of established conventions in the process should prevent, and which I described as, unfortunately, more likely in the games industry where the powers-that-be may be younger or less experienced, and did not come up through the ranks of that 100+ year established workflow structure.

I had a similar story that I think I've related elsewhere, but I will summarize here: I was brought in to a project with a slew of very experienced people at all levels, but with a handful of less-experienced creatives just above me. The high-level exec producers were super experienced, the post supervisor was very experienced and I had worked with her before on broadcast series with crushing and non-negotiable deadlines - but not everyone was that seasoned.

They had a bespoke, composed, temp score that was not right. I was brought in to get closer to the goal. I used my best communication skills to try and tease out that desired goal from the less-experienced folks, and after a few tries I still wasn't on target - which was weird to me, I can usually do some "dancing about architecture" and figure out what they want!

At the third (!!!) score review meeting, I said something like, "Sounds like you're talking about a Michael Clayton vibe, like this:" and I wound up singing / beatboxing my acapella version of the Michael Clayton score. The reply was, "EXACTLY!!! *Just like we had in the temp!*"

W.T.F.?

The only temp score that I had heard was the one that sounded totally wrong, the one that was laid down by another composer who was under instruction to deliver a score that was "modern noir". He misinterpreted that and, in a big hurry, on his first (and only) pass he wound up putting down old-school film-noir textures like echo-y trumpet and O.G. Blade Runner type stuff.

Up until that point I had never heard that original Clayton temp, and had never heard the magic words "Michael Clayton". If I had, I'd know EXACTLY what they wanted. (Not that I could have successfully aped that fantastic score, but....)

Relieved to at least finally know what they were after, the meeting ended and I walked into the post supervisor's office and flopped down on her couch. She asked, "How did it go? Did you ever figure out what they're after?" I replied, "Turns out they want the Michael Clayton vibe, and I do know exactly what that means, and apparently there's a version of the show that was temped with Michael Clayton, but I've never seen that version..."

Her jaw hung open. "What what WHAT? They never played you the original version? What versions have you seen?"

"All I've seen is the 'wrong' score with the echo-y trumpet and stuff, until now I didn't know there was a Clayton version..."

She stood up so fast her chair hit the wall. "Wait here." and stormed into the edit bays. I ate another donut.

When she came back she said, "I am so so sorry, I can't believe that happened. You should have been made aware of that original temp score before they had you going around in circles for three revisions. That Clayton temp was in place when the project got picked up! The temp score you heard was the one the higher-ups rejected, and it's why you were brought in. They should have given you the 'good' temp, the one that everyone loved! This is a huge screwup in communication and if only I'd known...."

In the end, all it took was a couple of less-seasoned people, in the mix with a whole crew of old hands, to drop the ball only slightly and neglect to give me the temp that everyone loved - and that's what had me going in circles and wind up beatboxing in the edit bay! Of course, I could've / should've been more rigorous in my questioning of whether or not such a beloved Clayton temp existed, but I foolishly assumed that they'd tell me the whole history of "We loved the edited temp, and did not like the composed temp, and here we are...." If you had a good Clayton temp, and a not-as-correct composed temp, of course you'd tell the composer, "We loved A, but can't use it. We got B, and didn't like it. Can you land us somewhere in between?" I mean, duh, right? To be fair, it was partially my bad for not digging until my shovel hit metal. But I learned my lesson that day for sure. DIG. Dig until you strike water.

By that point, I was so frustrated that I just wanted off the gig. I framed it as, "You guys deserve a composer who can give you what you want on the first or second try. If it's taking me three tries and I'm still not there, maybe I'm not the guy." - as opposed to - "I like hitting home runs, if I'm striking out then I'm outta here." So in the end I walked, and they went back to the original composer, and then, armed with the Clayton temp, my abortive attempts, and more full communication, they were able to make everyone happy. All was well, no big disaster, no deadlines missed, no enemies made. I might even have looked good for bowing out gracefully instead of clinging to a gig that I wasn't right for, who knows?

But.... dang. That's my real-world example of how a single lapse / casual attitude about communication can throw major sand in the gears.

Now, I don't think Mick's story has much to do with the story above; mine is just an example of how a single, minor, isolated stumble upstream can have the downstream folks going in circles and eventually out the door. But I can only imagine that in the less-well-established power structure in the games industry, with many more people, some of whom did not come up through the ranks of well-greased production workflows and are therefore less experienced in "how things are done", similar disasters are potentially lurking just below the surface.

Be careful out there.... and always bring your shovel!


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 11, 2022)

M_Helder said:


> Hey, Chris. Have you ever worked on a high budget AAA project as a sole composer tasked with a singular job of making an equally good or a better version of your previous project, already regarded as a bloody masterpiece?


I can tell you that if I was expected to do so, for a big corporation, and not getting paid for _a year_ by them to make a follow-up masterpiece, then they simply wouldn't be getting that follow up masterpiece.


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## JJP (Nov 11, 2022)

“I haven’t worked on a AAA game and have never met anyone who has. But, my cousin once got a lecture form a half-drunk former assistant to a woman whose brother delivered lunch to an office where they were playing a double-A mobile game while on break. So, here’s what I think Mick should have done…”


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## LostintheBardo (Nov 11, 2022)

marius_dm said:


> While that sounds like how a very “ambitious” manager would act, the way Gordon described being harassed by fans in his personal life sounds a bit suspicious. I mean I doubt people care that much.
> With things like this I’ve learned that each party has their own version of the truth constantly being reinforced in a feedback loop by misunderstandings. And I wouldn’t blame Mick Gordon for trying to give the guy a taste of his own medicine. But again, this is all speculation.


Mate I've heard of a woman who would make social media posts about the experiences of her autistic child and ended up getting endless hate from trolls. You really think they wouldn't come after Mick over this? These people don't need a valid reason to do what they do.


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## MarkusS (Nov 11, 2022)

So I actually have worked on serveral AAA games with million budgets. :D

Here is my take:

Let’s say you assert yourself, you stand your ground, bring up issues and explain your position and reasoning, refer to the agreement etc.

IF you have a respectful, seasoned professional in front of you he/she will listen to your concerns and find a solution that makes things move forward quickly (be it artistically, legally, organisationally).

IF you have an abuser in front of you *you will get fired/replaced* faster than you can say good bye. (Now that can be a good thing, I certainly would rather be fired than treated without respect).

I kind of find it funny (or not) that it was said above that the musicians are usually the nice guys and management is evil, because in many cases (I experienced) music and sound people were willingly participating in the abuse/toxicity and even initiating it. That’s even case in the situation here in Doom as described if you read carefully.

Edit: I just thought I d clarify that - I’m not referring to Mick Gordon or his behaviour here but to the guy who edited his music without his knowledge and consent and who then accepted artistic credit for it.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 11, 2022)

JJP said:


> “I haven’t worked on a AAA game and have never met anyone who has. But, my cousin once got a lecture form a half-drunk former assistant to a woman whose brother delivered lunch to an office where they were playing a double-A mobile game while on break. So, here’s what I think Mick should have done…”


you dont know the experience levels of the ppl here (never mind what experiences they have in fields outside of music) but aside from that, it's pretty clear that given the cards Mick was dealt in this situation, he didn't play it well as evidenced by his experience of deterioration in mental health/family life etc (hindsight is 20/20 of course). He likely has lost years off of his life because of this and I don't think it takes much intelligence or experience to see that.

Finally I think if you asked him if he could go back, would he make all the same choices, I'd bet good money he would say NO.


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 11, 2022)

JJP said:


> “I haven’t worked on a AAA game and have never met anyone who has. But, my cousin once got a lecture form a half-drunk former assistant to a woman whose brother delivered lunch to an office where they were playing a double-A mobile game while on break. So, here’s what I think Mick should have done…”


Never did I say that, you just assume, but oh look



MarkusS said:


> I kind of find it funny (or not) that it was said above that the musicians are usually the nice guys and management is evil, because in many cases (I experienced) music and sound people were willingly participating in the abuse/toxicity and even initiating it. That’s even case in the situation here in Doom as described if you read carefully.


One who just stated he has backs up exactly what I'm saying. What a coincidence.

You don't even need to be a composer to figure this out. You just need basic business sense and self-respect.

I understand why Mick would've felt compelled to see it through to the end, but let's stop pretending that this gets more nuanced than "pay me or I don't do the work" rather than keep holding out 11 months and saying it was totally justified because vague artistic reasons. I recently quit a job precisely because they didn't want to pay me. Guess that was the wrong move somehow? Like, what?

For all the insistence from composers online that "it's a business" they sure find every reason to treat it like something else. If you're not getting paid, the environment is this toxic, you're getting screwed, and you're in-demand — then quit the toxic job before you're in too deep. That is the correct advice in any industry.

Mick definitely kept digging his hole here out of some variant of sunk-cost fallacy. I don't hold that against him at all, he's allowed to make mistakes, but "don't put in a year's worth of work without at least getting paid by these assholes and quit them if they keep screwing you" is hard to see an argument against, and I suspect that he is wise enough that he won't allow this kind of thing to happen twice.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 11, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Never did I say that, you just assume, but oh look
> 
> 
> One who just stated he has backs up exactly what I'm saying. What a coincidence.
> ...


11 months without pay is a direct attack on him and his family - housing, food, livelihood, general quality of life could have been suffering greatly because of the situation. All for a farking video game...like nah brah.

Also I think it needs to be said, I - and I am sure many others here - are not trying to rip into Mick for fun or to gain some sense of superiority but rather look at his situation and learn from it, understand it and make sure it doesn't happen to us (us meaning all of us)


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## JJP (Nov 11, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Never did I say that, you just assume, but oh look


Never did I say you did say that. (Never did I say you didn’t say that, either.) But, if you did say that I said you said that, I’d have to say that I didn’t say you said that. However, I would be willing to confirm that you said you never said that.


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 11, 2022)

JJP said:


> Never did I say you did say that. (Never did I say you didn’t say that, either.) But, if you did say that I said you said that, I’d have to say that I didn’t say you said that. However, I would be willing to confirm that you said you never said that.


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## TWY (Nov 11, 2022)

José Herring said:


> You are missing the point. This isn't a "respect vs. disrespect" issue. Who really cares about that.
> This is a legal battle and the director deliberately and with malice outright attacked the composer. He laid grounds for a lawsuit involving a lot of money potentially. Slandered the composer publically thus potentially effecting future potential hires as this is now on the internet. If one were interested in hiring Mick Gordon and Googled his name, this is now part of permanent internet history.
> 
> It's a bad, bad situation and whether Mr. Gordon was "too nice" or not mean enough or whatever has little to no relevance in this situation. It's a potential legal suit which is alluded to, loss reputation and the idea spread that the composer didn't deliver. And, that idea being spread all around the globe.
> ...


Like I said, it's not about just "being a jerk for no good reason whatsoever". It's about being able to handle disrespect such as the one Mick is facing *when the situation calls for it (provided if you can spot a potential one a mile away in the first place)*. Such as the ones that all of us face - man or woman or whatever.

*Nope, "playing along to get along and hoping for the best at the end", is the WORST thing you can do. That's exactly how you let relationships get toxic, and your share of the respect in it disappear. Eventually, you get dumped.*

There are much better diplomatic ways to handle the situation earlier on, to prevent it from sliding into shit. That's what I've learnt from many past incidents.


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## MarkusS (Nov 11, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> One who just stated he has backs up exactly what I'm saying. What a coincidence.


I somewhat do agree with you but I also totally get why Mick stayed and put up with what happened. I mean who would not try to see through a project as I iconic and big as Doom? It’s a difficult situation and if he had stopped working (because of the withholding of feedback that allows him to reach the milestone) he would have certainly created too much delay to respect the deadlines all together. So that would have been the end.



Chris Schmidt said:


> Mick definitely kept digging his hole here



I wouldn’t say he did dig his own hole because I don’t think he’s responsible for this whole thing. As I said if you have an abusive client in front of you there is only so much you can do (and you really can’t anticipate it).

And as others have stated he also had his previous work to live up to.

I believe if he would have asserted himself earlier he would simply have been fired. He did assert himself towards the end and I applaud him for it, as a consequence now clearly they will not work with him again.


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## MarkusS (Nov 12, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Mick definitely kept digging his hole here





MarkusS said:


> I kind of find it funny (or not) that it was said above that the musicians are usually the nice guys and management is evil, because in many cases (I experienced) music and sound people were willingly participating in the abuse/toxicity and even initiating it. That’s even case in the situation here in Doom as described if you read carefully.


I just thought I d clarify that - I’m not referring to Mick Gordon or his behaviour here but to the guy who edited his music without his knowledge and consent and who then accepted artistic credit for it.


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## MartinH. (Nov 12, 2022)




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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 12, 2022)

wunderflo said:


> ...I'd have assumed that it's actually one of the friendlier corners of the music industry...


It actually is. Game audio people are some of the coolest and most down-to-earth people I've met. It's an emerging field with lots of positive energy and creativity.

The challenge is that it's fused with the software industry, which in many cases can be notoriously sweatshop-y.


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## Henu (Nov 12, 2022)

It can also be about people being promoted beyond their capabilities.

Some people just can't handle those constant Excel sheets, schedule juggling, meetings and pressure from the management while already being responsible for too much stuff, no matter how good...say, audio designers they used to be before they got a promotion into a _completely different role_.

Generally, being a very professional audio guy doesn't make you a very professional management guy and you can still suck horrible in that role. Or worse, that promoted person can turn out to be a complete micromanaging dick and a walking asshole, which nobody knew before because the person was too tied in EQ'ing and editing in his/her room!


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 12, 2022)

MartinH. said:


>


I used to work video game retail back in the day.

I have seen manchildren that you people can scarcely begin to imagine.


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## mopsiflopsi (Nov 12, 2022)

Video game industry person here. AAA tends to bring out the worst in the industry and the fan base. Small to mid sized indie studios however can be amazing experiences for people working in and with them. Exceptions do exist of course so be wary but also don’t give up on us.


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## TonalDynamics (Nov 12, 2022)

So basically id is the devil, Mick is DOOM Slayer, and he worked on the game whilst in hell...

Truth is stranger than fiction, ladies and gentlemen.


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## TonalDynamics (Nov 12, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> I had a hunch that this may have been a nightmare job


You're not wrong; that was in fact the difficulty setting Marty chose when he signed on for this gig.

Trouble is they only learnt to fear him once it was too late...


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## Nashi_VI (Nov 13, 2022)

MartinH. said:


>


Review bombing is not gonna damage the people that already worked on Doom, but can for sure be something that Bethesda is going to notice (doesn't mean it will change anything, but that is another story),as for the personal attacks..as i said before, people just want a reason to harrass others, they are not Mick fans, they don't want justice for him, they want to spread hate (and maybe get relieved by doing so in their own personal life and that prevents them from actually hurting people close to them IRL...but that is also another story, and of course that, even if it was the case, doesn't excuse their actions at all).
The difference here is that Mick published his side of the story in response, so his intention was not to spread hate (even tho of course he knew it could happen) while Marty did it first, and on Reddit (known for being the home for that type of people that just want to spread hate to everyone and that are only searching for an excuse to do so) and i think that, at least Marty..if not also some other higher ups as well...knew that very well.


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## TonalDynamics (Nov 13, 2022)

So I read both Marty and Mick's entire posts on the matter last night and was enthralled; I couldn't take my eyes off of it, someone could (and *should*) make a movie out of this whole ordeal...

Sorry for the long-ish post, but I feel there is an _incredible _amount to be observed and learned here...



charlieclouser said:


> and have some invisible dude chop bits together in such amateurish manner, and then put himself down as a co-writer of the cues. That's ridiculous.


^This is one part that stands out as being absolutely _ludicrous_ to me... to those of you who have worked in game music, just how little control does the artist typically have over their songs? Because if the developers aren't even prevented from taking actual *credit* for songs they did not write then the answer would seem to be _zero_.

An editor literally _never_, and I mean never gets writing cred in conventional music production, unless it's part of a deal or contract that has been worked out beforehand. Absolutely mindblowing and unacceptable.



Trash Panda said:


> My ex used to work at id Software. That company is such a shit show in how it's run, how they manage to put out games that aren't all as terrible as Rage is mind blowing.


You forgot to mention Quake Champions 😂
But yeah, they have loads of legacy cred, and Quake will always be one of those 'forever games', along with DOOM; but to be fair, *that is due more to John Carmack *than to id itself IMO.



Crowe said:


> Peace and kindness shouldn't be ridiculous, the onus for good working conditions should not be on the person attempting to be reasonable. There's no room for sharks in a communal workplace



I agree with the premise, it _shouldn't_ be ridiculous, but I feel like your second sentence is perhaps a bit more hopeful idealism than a reflection of our sad reality; in the entertainment industry, the norm is that not only do the sharks exist, but the sea is in fact abundant with them, to such an extent that the workplace can hardly be 'communal' in nature when you have countless managers and project directors abusing everyone and reminding them of the established pecking order on a regular basis.



Crowe said:


> You make it sound like, well, if you're not an asshole you really shouldn't exist because there's no place for you.


Being reasonable yet firm =/= asshole behavior; between domineering prick and total pushover, there is a balance to be struck here, with the artistes generally leaning towards the latter (for various reasons, the primary historical one being less financial power)



Crowe said:


> You must be assertive. You must fight. Not everyone can be like this. This shouldn't be a requirement.


This, yes absolutely. This is honestly all I could think about when reading (all of) Mick's post. I'm much the way you describe yourself, willing to be combative to stand up for myself and my people, but I always try to lead with diplomacy and generally only react in a defensive manner once provoked or threatened to an unreasonable degree -- then the 'beast' comes out and has his say with those involved. So like you, it's not myself I fear being taken advantage of, but the vast swathes of soft-hearted/gentle creatives that are out there being abused on a routine basis.

However, in my experience with high-profile productions, for every genuine, soft-hearted, gentle artist, there are scores of 'wannabes' and also-ran pretenders, who desire the prestige and clout that high art has to offer, who behave like complete and utter social-climbing parasites, sabotaging and stepping on anyone in their way to achieve their imagined goals; *Hollywood is literally filled with and defined by these types of people (usually 'above the line' but not always), and when good things get made, it is in spite of them, not because of them; a minor miracle of sorts.*

But I think the subtext of ProdigalSon's post, was that if you _are_ a very submissive person, that _maybe_ you're less cut-out for these kinds of high-profile interactions with these toxic people and you're probably going to have a hard time of it? That's how I took it, and I wholeheartedly agree.

_In such cases, if you are one of the gentler types, please find a manager who can fight for you, or until you can afford one, at least pretend that you are more assertive than you really are; think of it as 'roleplaying' a tough guy, it's amazing how you can alter your own behavior if you just see it as some kind of game._



MarkusS said:


> I kind of find it funny (or not) that it was said above that the musicians are usually the nice guys and management is evil, because in many cases (I experienced) music and sound people were willingly participating in the abuse/toxicity and even initiating it. That’s even case in the situation here in Doom as described if you read carefully.


^Exactly the kind of ppl I'm talking about, who turn the 'gentle artist' stereotype on its head (or disembowel it, even)




Crowe said:


> Bottom line. Courtesy is not and should not be a crime. Defending assholes because that's your 'normal' is scummy.


He didn't do this though, I feel like you're kind of mischaracterizing what he said; he closed with 'he tried so hard to be the consummate professional but _these assholes smelled blood and took advantage of it_'

I'd hardly call that defending them, more like calling out the nature of the beast.

But yeah, ideally things would _never_ be like this, we can agree on that. Sadly we have and will never live in an ideal world and must contend with the 'beast' in the state in which it currently presents itself to us.



Nashi_VI said:


> Also, for us consumers, whos to say that, in the end, the DOOM Eternal soundtrack didn't turn out better than it would have been without all the stress and anger that Mick experienced composing it.


Yeah this occurred to me also, it's an interesting thought isn't it? Art imitating life and all that.
The music for the DOOM series is tense, chaotic and violent.
The working conditions for Mick were tense, chaotic and violent.
Seems very plausible that there might be some correlation there.



José Herring said:


> It's a potential legal suit which is alluded to, loss reputation and the idea spread that the composer didn't deliver. And, that idea being spread all around the globe.


I see where you're coming from here, and it's probably the angle that Marty saw it from as well, but isn't this take practically 1,000% negated by the fact that he _did_ deliver to critical acclaim with the obscene amount of music he actually made for the game?

The proof is in the pudding, as they say, and now it's all gloriously blowing up in id's face.

As either a publisher or consumer, once I read even a little about this situation there's no shot that my perception of Mick would be soiled, because I am judging the man on his _work_, instead of innuendos and insinuations.

On the contrary, his ability to function let alone continue doing productive work under these subhuman conditions are just a testament to what an *absolute unit* the guy is.



Chris Schmidt said:


> Another problem is that people in this business wear their abuse as a badge of honor, frankly.
> --
> Composers need to learn to say "no", and their inability to do so is why in video games, you basically can't even be a composer anymore. You have to be the one-stop shop for ALL things audio (Can you record voice actors too?) and they expect you to do it all for $50 and a ham sandwich because some other guys, who have made this their very identity and are desperate, just couldn't say "no" to assholes taking advantage of them.


Flawlessly stated; I wholeheartedly disown this type of self-loathing masochism (which admittedly though, is rooted in financial insecurity).
That story about the cleaning staff is priceless.


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## MartinH. (Nov 13, 2022)

I wonder how (or whether at all) ID software will react. I'm putting my money on radio silence for one or two months, then the parent company that owns ID software pays him for the unpaid music, maybe with a typical corporate statement that says essentially nothing. I don't think ID Software will reply or apologize at all. And I also don't think anyone is getting fired over this.

Just seems to me like at this point it would be cheaper to just pay him than drag this out further. What they have to lose in terms of lost sales from years of review bombing and boycotts by fans must easily outweigh the sum they owe him. And the damage to Marty's reputation has already been done, but ultimately I think this will be rather inconsequential for ID software.


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## EvilDragon (Nov 13, 2022)

AndrewS said:


> It's hard to take either Mick or Marty's word as gospel


Ermm, it's not really about any sort of "gospel", but there are actual screenshots that uncover all the lies that were spewed... This is actual facts and proof.


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## Uiroo (Nov 13, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> Ermm, it's not really about any sort of "gospel", but there are actual screenshots that uncover all the lies that were spewed... This is actual facts and proof.


I'm not really arguing against you, but the screenshots seem to primarily be of Mick's messages, and we don't know the actual words of Marty in emails and calls. So there is some "gospel" about whether he actually said the things described by Mick. 

On another note, I don't think anything there would count as proof in court, but that's probably not what you meant.


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## EvilDragon (Nov 13, 2022)

You missed the part about Chad's "edits" being started months ago, unbeknownst to Mick, all traced back through BWF metadata embedded in the audio files? All the while unapproving a bunch of takes Mick did, yet still taking it all as fodder to process in this "alternate" OST that wasn't even contracted at that point? That's not pure conjencture, that's proof they did these things with intent.

At the very least that would stand in court.


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## MartinH. (Nov 13, 2022)

Uiroo said:


> On another note, I don't think anything there would count as proof in court, but that's probably not what you meant.



There's an official signed contract that confirms timely delivery of the soundtrack and he did get paid the on-time delivery bonus. Doesn't get more official than that and this alone already solidly debunks several of Marty's lies from that Reddit post.




Uiroo said:


> I'm not really arguing against you, but the screenshots seem to primarily be of Mick's messages, and we don't know the actual words of Marty in emails and calls.


I bet Mick is trying not to violate the NDA he signed, but he knows what is in those mails and he wouldn't have published this story if he wasn't ready to deliver the receipts in court if need be.


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## Uiroo (Nov 13, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> You missed the part about Chad's "edits" being started months ago, unbeknownst to Mick, all traced back through BWF metadata embedded in the audio files? All the while unapproving a bunch of takes Mick did, yet still taking it all as fodder to process in this "alternate" OST that wasn't even contracted at that point? That's not pure conjencture, that's proof they did these things with intent.
> 
> At the very least that would stand in court.


With proof I was merely meaning the email screenshots, and how much that can count as evidence. The whole ridiculous context obviously should provide enough to make a crushing case against Marty.
Good point about the metadata, but I wonder how much that alone would play a role in court since that can probably also be faked 🤷 


MartinH. said:


> There's an official signed contract that confirms timely delivery of the soundtrack and he did get paid the on-time delivery bonus. Doesn't get more official than that and this alone already solidly debunks several of Marty's lies from that Reddit post.


Yep, as above, meant the evidence of email screenshots in isolation 


MartinH. said:


> I bet Mick is trying not to violate the NDA he signed


Most certainly. Publishing any mails he received from them would probably be a violation against the NDA, regardless of the content. 



MartinH. said:


> he knows what is in those mails and he wouldn't have published this story if he wasn't ready to deliver the receipts in court if need be.


Absolutely, which is why for me, it's not just one opinion against another. 
It's more like a "Do you dare to challenge this in court?"-situation.

I could imagine them challenging Mick in court even though they're wrong, just to disperse the attention. People loose interest after a couple of years, and the image hit could not be as bad. 
Lots of people will remember how they claimed that Mick's accusations are false, and that it was all very complicated.


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## marius_dm (Nov 17, 2022)




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## gamma-ut (Nov 17, 2022)

It's always a bold move to claim "the situation was mischaracterised" while at the same time mischaracterising a critical posting as "incitement", especially when the author signs off explicitly saying not to start a hate campaign.


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## Justin L. Franks (Nov 17, 2022)

Hopefully Mundfish is treating him better. Atomic Heart should make excellent use of Mick's immense talent.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 17, 2022)

marius_dm said:


>



This tweet is going to age like a shrimp Caesar salad under a heat lamp.


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## gamma-ut (Nov 17, 2022)

I get the sense that Stratton is feeling lucky and (given the number of obvious clangers in the text) wrote it himself. That didn't come from a PR or at least not one that knows what they're doing: "...irreparable professional relationship"? Wat?

The upshot seems to be that Microsoft isn't getting involved and management aren't going to sanction Stratton in any way. I don't think it's even giving him enough rope: there's too much legal risk in doing so. I suspect they simply won't come to any agreement unless it goes to court.


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## Uiroo (Nov 17, 2022)

Oh no, they played the "no he is the one who's lying!"-card.


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## Justin L. Franks (Nov 17, 2022)

LOLOL Mick posted this earlier today.


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## MartinH. (Nov 17, 2022)

That bethesda post has 14k likes, wtf?


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## OHjorth (Nov 17, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> This tweet is going to age like a shrimp Caesar salad under a heat lamp.


Ye saw it... Made me so angry. Bethesda acting without knowing the history it seems. A lot of fan-boys liking at first but looks like the comment section quickly turned against them.


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## gsilbers (Nov 17, 2022)

If you guys see the old interviews of doom you can see the pattern emerging of deadlines and issues. Still He kept it profesional and didnt throw anyone under the bus. 

I still dont get why Marty decided to write that reddit post. The whole "someone somewhere wrote some bad stuff about doom" doesnt seem reason enough to air out internel dirty luandry in such a public manner AND being forceful to keeping it there.


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 18, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> That bethesda post has 14k likes, wtf?


The "fanbase" will side with Bethesda and Id in the end. Trust me on this.

Mick Gordon to most of these people is a nobody. Most gamers will tell you that they shut the in-game music off and just blast like...Lil' Wayne or some shit whilst they "game". Perhaps they will fire up "Gaming Playlist That Totally Slaps in 2022" on YouTube.

The consoomers don't care about squabbles internally in the company between the guy who makes "background music" and the people who actually make the game, neither of whom they know personally. Realistically, why would they care? The music is just totally irrelevant to 90% of people who bought DOOM, which would be a good game even if the backing music was just the Macarena and "She Bangs".

They just care about getting a "bussin'" or "dope" (if you're old) FPS where they can blow demons' heads off with a BFG like it's still 1993 but with better graphics, and many would trade family members for the next great boomer shooter by Id.

They just want to consume next product. Id makes product that they love, and Mick Gordon is being a pain in the ass of people who will give them product, as far as they are concerned.

So when it comes down to "support Mary, who makes my beloved shooter" or "support this rando who made the 0010011101 guitars I turned down in the options menu because it doesn't 'vibe' with my YouTube FPS playlist" guess who is going under the bus?


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## NoamL (Nov 18, 2022)

marius_dm said:


>



Mick Gordon brought the receipts, and Bethesda brought that coupon the cashier insists on handing you.

Mick is a true artist and may his next gig not be a nightmare like this!


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## aeliron (Nov 18, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> So I read both Marty and Mick's entire posts on the matter last night and was enthralled; I couldn't take my eyes off of it, someone could (and *should*) make a movie out of this whole ordeal...


Or a video game ...


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## NoamL (Nov 18, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> especially when the author signs off explicitly saying not to start a hate campaign.


and he was the victim of some online harassment too. They have no leg to stand on saying that MG is responsible for people getting hate mail.



Chris Schmidt said:


> Mick Gordon to most of these people is a nobody.


I think he's up there with Marty O'Donnell, Christopher Tin, and Jason Graves (among the Western videogame composers). Known and admired by people who care enough to know _any_ videogame composers.


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 18, 2022)

NoamL said:


> I think he's up there with Marty O'Donnell, Christopher Tin, and Jason Graves (among the Western videogame composers). Known and admired by people who care enough to know _any_ videogame composers.


Yeah, but that's a small fraction of people really.

Most just don't care about the music. Feels bad.


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## MartinH. (Nov 18, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> The "fanbase" will side with Bethesda and Id in the end. Trust me on this.
> 
> Mick Gordon to most of these people is a nobody. Most gamers will tell you that they shut the in-game music off and just blast like...Lil' Wayne or some shit whilst they "game". Perhaps they will fire up "Gaming Playlist That Totally Slaps in 2022" on YouTube.
> 
> ...



Hmm... I have to admit in this _specific _case I disagree with pretty much everything you said. But _in general_ I think you would be pretty spot on. So I wonder how closely you have followed Doom's reception amongs gamers? I have quite often seen comments like "The best thing about the new Doom Soundtrack is that it comes with a free game". It's actually the only game I can think of, where the average gamer seems to care so deeply about the music. This might be one of the very few games where more people liked the game because of the soundtrack, rather than people liking the soundtrack because of the game like it usually is.




NoamL said:


> I think he's up there with Marty O'Donnell, Christopher Tin, and Jason Graves (among the Western videogame composers). Known and admired by people who care enough to know _any_ videogame composers.


I think that may still be underestimating his popularity. He has 456k subscribers on youtube. That seems a lot for someone who does not actually make youtube videos. Nearly everything on his channel is just music from Doom and Killer Instinct. For comparison: Hans Zimmer has 809k subscribers on youtube. That's not the order of magnitude difference one would expect.


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 19, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Hmm... I have to admit in this _specific _case I disagree with pretty much everything you said. But _in general_ I think you would be pretty spot on. So I wonder how closely you have followed Doom's reception amongs gamers? I have quite often seen comments like "The best thing about the new Doom Soundtrack is that it comes with a free game". It's actually the only game I can think of, where the average gamer seems to care so deeply about the music. This might be one of the very few games where more people liked the game because of the soundtrack, rather than people liking the soundtrack because of the game like it usually is.


I'm not denying people liked the DOOM soundtrack more than most.

I am denying however that they care about the music equally as much as they care about DOOM, one of the most innovative, influential and popular video games of all time with this latest series kicking off a full-on boomer shooter renaissance. 

So I'm willing to bet that Id/Bethesda will not suffer in any serious way from all this and most likely, Id's next shooter or DOOM game will still sell millions of copies, to a sizeable amount of returning customers.


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## tmhuud (Nov 19, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> I am denying however that they care about the music equally as much as they care about DOOM, one of the most innovative, influential and popular video games of all time with this latest series kicking off a full-on boomer shooter renaissance.


Very true. After gamers who even liked the music, after playing the game 10,000 tiems they WILL usually /most likely turn the music off in favor of dialogue or Sound effects....


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 19, 2022)

tmhuud said:


> Very true. After gamers who even liked the music, after playing the game 10,000 tiems they WILL usually /most likely turn the music off in favor of dialogue or Sound effects....


When playing retro shooters, I just mute the game's music and blast the Benny Hill theme on loop.

It fits the action perfectly, and it's what Duke Nukem would want.


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## tmhuud (Nov 19, 2022)

Hahaha!!!! When I was a kid I used to play Sonic the Hedgehog, turn off the music and play “The Hitcher” by Marc Islam. 10 pizzas later and god knows how many soft drinks I basically passed out. Those were the days. Fast 4-ward today. Still play Dead Space 3 every now and then , turn off the music (love you Jason!) and listen to Dune or Blade Runner (I know, I’m uncultured and pathetic) oh, pizza every now and then but soft drinks replaced with JW green. I hope to live long enough to see the DS reboot. (Jan 2023)


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## TonalDynamics (Nov 19, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Most gamers will tell you that they shut the in-game music off and just blast like...Lil' Wayne or some shit whilst they "game". Perhaps they will fire up "Gaming Playlist That Totally Slaps in 2022" on YouTube.


Eh, I gotta echo Chris Schmidt's sentiments on this one, with personal experience as an additional point of perspective:

While this take on gamers is generally true (due in no small part to _*bad/no budget music* _btw), the DOOM/Quake playerbase (which I have been a member of since the age of 13) is critically and very deliberately _not_ this type of gamer; they might be the single most 'counterculture' type of gaming community that exists in the known galaxy, filled mostly with older guys (who thus have their own money to spend on DOOM games) who despise the modern 'art by committee' types of games churned out by the industry these days.

Mick's music for the game fits it near _perfectly_, and is universally appreciated to the point of being synonymous with the gameplay experience itself.

I'm in the middle of a nightmare DOOM (2016) playthrough right now, and let me tell you as a composer, when you listen to it you think 'man, writing this must have been _hard_, because the music literally doesn't stop."

Seriously, the hallmark of the IP is literally 'wall-to-wall-music', as Mick himself described it.
Very unusual and seldomly realized approach to take in the '2020s, yet by inhuman effort he made it work.

So there are many features of this case, but people 'muting the music by default in most cases anyway' (thus having the effect of trivializing Mick's work and impact) is *not *one of them; in general this holds true, granted, but this is a specific case which defies the norm.

*He's basically to DOOM what Jeremy Soule is to Skyrim -- 0 chance of downplaying how massive was the musical contribution to the IP within those fanbases (which are very real and decidedly not filled with 'normies' who will be off to another game within a week)*


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 19, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> The "fanbase" will side with Bethesda and Id in the end. Trust me on this.
> ...


I dunno.

If you were describing Marvel movie fanatics, I would get it. But gamers tend to be more intelligent than your average entertainment consumer. And gamers really like their OSTs. Maybe the FPS and e-sports aspect is what you are describing, but most gamers I know pay attention to the music. 🤷‍♂️


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## tmhuud (Nov 20, 2022)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I dunno.
> 
> If you were describing Marvel movie fanatics, I would get it. But gamers tend to be more intelligent than your average entertainment consumer. And gamers really like their OSTs. Maybe the FPS and e-sports aspect is what you are describing, but most gamers I know pay attention to the music. 🤷‍♂️


Really? We had a VERY intelligent gamer onboard. (21 years old) I mean this guy was super smart. He LOVED Halo, DOOM and tons of fantasy games I knew nothing about. And when I told him about the Neil Davidge deluxe boxed set soundtrack, (12" x 12") with really cool remixes of Halo 4 that had the making of hard cover book, a record vinyl picture disc and some 12' X 12' art he didnt even know the composer....

Anywho, anyone of you that likes the game should seek out the boxed set. Lots of behind the scenes, back history videos and great orchestral footage of the score being recorded.


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## Sombreuil (Nov 20, 2022)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I dunno.
> 
> If you were describing Marvel movie fanatics, I would get it. But gamers tend to be more intelligent than your average entertainment consumer. And gamers really like their OSTs. Maybe the FPS and e-sports aspect is what you are describing, but most gamers I know pay attention to the music. 🤷‍♂️


All my gamer friends have spent hundreds and hundreds of euros in League of Legends for ugly skins.
Intelligent is the last word I would think about.
Not trying to sound mean or anything, but gamers are like most consumers, if you give them something shiny, they will take it and thank you for that.


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## MartinH. (Nov 20, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> if you give them something shiny, they will take it and thank you for that.


Whe gotta be reeeaaaal careful in this glasshouse that we're sitting in, on top of our thrones built from piles of string libraries.


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 20, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> All my gamer friends have spent hundreds and hundreds of euros in League of Legends for ugly skins.
> Intelligent is the last word I would think about.
> Not trying to sound mean or anything, but gamers are like most consumers, if you give them something shiny, they will take it and thank you for that.


They will also line up at 5 pm for the midnight launch of product and stand in line until like 2 am to get the thing.

They also pay micro-transactions, seasons passes, pay for DLC that is actually already on the disc (capcom), have continued to pay steadily increasing prices since 2014 for a single game (even a digital copy which is priced the same as physical) and tons of them: drop out of college, quit good jobs, let their relationships (sometimes even with children) implode to play video games.







That's not a hyperbole btw. It's a pretty common occurrence and has even been the subject of numerous academic studies now.

Like I said, I saw these people daily working video game retail and personally, I know of several men who are married, with children, who are seemingly more loyal to their gaming PC than their family. My one friend of such a description, had over 1000 hours in a single steam game in less than a year, despite also having a full-time job and family and couldn't figure "what his wife's problem" was.

I've seen grown men throw tantrums because the PS4 or the game they wanted was sold out. Watched them nearly start a fist fight with a stranger because the stranger liked Call of Duty instead of Battlefield. The list goes on...

Anyway, we can only speculate, and time will tell — but my money is still on that most DOOM guys (heh) care most about Doom and much less about the guy doing the soundtrack.

Reason: The expansion for Doom eternal was, by my understanding, well recieved and sold very well — and Mick didn't do the soundtrack for the expansion.


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## Tice (Nov 20, 2022)

My takeaway from all this: To tell a devastating lie takes less than a minute. To expose that lie takes the moving of mountains. That Gordon had the energy and ability to write all that after everything that happened is astounding. He shouldn't have had to, but we don't live in a fair world where people treat accusations with care and scrutiny. Most people read the TLDR at best. An opinion that was easy to form isn't as valuable as we seem to make them out to be in our global culture. The quick condemnation is glorified, at the cost of getting it right.
And not everyone has the ability to move those mountains to set it right.


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## Henu (Nov 21, 2022)

My gamer friends are intelligent, educated and many of them have families. If someone has gamer friends who are generally mouth-breathing irresponsible dimwits, I wouldn't necessarily blame _games_ for that.


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## PebbleStream (Nov 21, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> ...have spent hundreds and hundreds of euros...


Now where have I heard of this before relating to software... 🤔


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## Sombreuil (Nov 21, 2022)

PebbleStream said:


> Now where have I heard of this before relating to software... 🤔


I hear you and you are not wrong, but I also believe that you're underestimating the state of the video game industry regarding the average consumer. Gamers have been educated to accept pretty much everything. For example, have you ever checked how many Street Fighter II titles there are?
I have yet to see Spitfire asking you to pay in order to unlock key switches or glissandi. There are games that you can't finish unless you pay an additional amount of money to unlock the final part.

To give you an example, when playing a free to play game, a friend of mine calculates the amount of money he'll spend based on the hours he'll play. As long as he doesn't exceed 1 euro per hour played, he will accept to buy things he doesn't need and won't ever use because he'll stop playing the game before even having the time to try them out.

Gamers have been educated to accept everything and I think MartinH. is right when he says that people doesn't and won't care about Mick Gordon.
We all know that Bethesda is one of the worst companies, we all know the saying "Bethesda make a game, gamers debug it", and yet, I can guarantee you that people will keep buying the next IP blindly and will ask for more.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 21, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> I have yet to see Spitfire asking you to pay in order to unlock key switches or glissandi.


_AR2 Strings Core has entered the chat._


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## MartinH. (Nov 21, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> Gamers have been educated to accept everything and I think MartinH. is right when he says that people doesn't and won't care about Mick Gordon.


I got a notification that you quoted me, I see no actual quote though. This however is the opposite of what I said, I think you are confusing me with Chris Schmidt. I do think Mick Gordon is one of the most beloved game composers out there and people do care and take his side. However...




Sombreuil said:


> We all know that Bethesda is one of the worst companies, we all know the saying "Bethesda make a game, gamers debug it", and yet, I can guarantee you that people will keep buying the next IP blindly and will ask for more.


Isn't that exactly the same with Spitfire and Orchestral tools? Except we can't always debug their stuff (although in unlocked Kontakt patches some people do make their own fixes I've heard).

I think it is perfectly reconcilable to believe Mick, take his side, and still buy and enjoy Bethesda games because these games are the work of hundreds of people and Mick explicitely asked people not to take actions against their games that would harm all the other people that work on them and have nothing to do with how Mick got treated.




Sombreuil said:


> To give you an example, when playing a free to play game, a friend of mine calculates the amount of money he'll spend based on the hours he'll play. As long as he doesn't exceed 1 euro per hour played, he will accept to buy things he doesn't need and won't ever use because he'll stop playing the game before even having the time to try them out.


Again, careful in that glasshouse! I still haven't used some libraries I bought on last years black friday (or the year before, I don't even remember anymore) and possibly never will. And I _wish _I'd get my music making fun for anywhere close to as cheap as 1$/hour. I can guarantuee that I haven't used a single one of my ~300$ libraries for ~300 hours.

The peak predatory microtransaction bullshit like Diablo Immortal is generally slammed by all "gamers", those money sinks are imho primarily aimed at gambling addicts and other vulnerable groups that can be exploited, like children. I - just like my friends that play games - hate that shit with a passion because that monetization model is ruining games in many ways and even ruining some people financially.


If you _just _look at the facts and numbers, and the social isolation that usually comes with making music alone in your studio vs. socializing with your friends on discord while playing a game together... _we _have the crazy hobby that makes no sense, not the gamers.


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## Chris Schmidt (Nov 21, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> I have yet to see Spitfire asking you to pay in order to unlock key switches or glissandi.


Don't give them any fcking ideas, man.



Sombreuil said:


> Gamers have been educated to accept everything and I think MartinH. is right when he says that people doesn't and won't care about Mick Gordon





Sombreuil said:


> For example, have you ever checked how many Street Fighter II titles there are?


Not only that, all of the DLC that came out for SFIV was confirmed to be on the physical disc at launch. They just staggered release of it and all you got was a key to unlock content already on your disc.

SFIV still went on to sell millions of copies and counted among various "Greatest Games of All Time" lists.

Their Darkstalkers games actually have more re-releases of the 2nd and 3rd entries than there are _total entries in the series_. Gamers still bought most of the relaunches. Then, when they finally didn't give in when "Darkstalkers: Resurrection", yet another re-release of the 3rd game, came out around 2011 and didn't sell that well, they took it as "proof" a 4th Darkstalkers game wouldn't do well and never made it.

The last game, Darkstalkers 3, came out in 1997. They milked that one game almost as long as SF II. This summer, yet another fighting game compilation with DS III is on it...They're not called "Crapcom" for nothing.

I also remember back when, people pre-ordering "seasons passes". Which was just paying for the _promise _of more content at some later, undefined time and quantity. So you could pay 60 bucks and 6 months later they just release a couple skins.

Then in the 2010s, "Early Access" games were big. Where you pay potentially full price plus micro-transactions to play an unfinished game. 9/10 of these games, after turning a profit, got scrapped before ever being completed. Gamerz bitched, but early-access games kept getting thousands of players...


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## Varishnipu (Nov 22, 2022)

the top composer do the business and the assistant intern and servant do the composing...this guy is not top composer because he did the work of the assistant...I let the workers do the work so I can do the business...I keep the assistants and interns to do the job


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## NeonMediaKJT (Nov 22, 2022)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Horrifying read for those that dare:



Wow. This Marty guy sounds like the worst


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## Akoustecx (Nov 22, 2022)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Wow. This Marty guy sounds like the worst


I will not have that said!!!
He's just a big, cuddly, Cacodemon!
Best regards,
Bethesdaddy.


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## robgb (Nov 23, 2022)

I can't really comment on this particular case, but in any labor dispute it's wise to side with the artist and the people in the trenches. Management rarely knows or cares what their employees actually do and their attitude far too often reflects this.

Unrealistic expectations are nothing new in any industry, and management are rarely the ones pulling all-nighters because of some arbitrary deadline.

Artists have been shit on and bullied for centuries, and the system is rigged to make that possible.


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## signalpath (Nov 26, 2022)

robgb said:


> the system is rigged to make that possible.


There you go.


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## Tice (Nov 29, 2022)

I do wonder, now that the dust is slowly settling, after posting the document has anything changed for Gordon? Did the document have the intended effect for him? Obviously the company has chosen to dig their heels in, but I imagine some positive effect was had on other companies' willingness to work with him? Is he still getting blamed for the state of the soundtrack in the way he was before?
Did his mental state improve?


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 29, 2022)

Tice said:


> I do wonder, now that the dust is slowly settling, after posting the document has anything changed for Gordon? Did the document have the intended effect for him? Obviously the company has chosen to dig their heels in, but I imagine some positive effect was had on other companies' willingness to work with him? Is he still getting blamed for the state of the soundtrack in the way he was before?
> Did his mental state improve?


More than anything I think he was worried about his reputation. He had to set the record straight for that reason alone.

This is just my guess but in business word of mouth is everything. So if they declared war, he had to fight back. Tough spot!


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## Tice (Nov 29, 2022)

marclawsonmusic said:


> More than anything I think he was worried about his reputation. He had to set the record straight for that reason alone.
> 
> This is just my guess but in business word of mouth is everything. So if they declared war, he had to fight back. Tough spot!


That does sound about right. I'm glad he got good visibility on his document. Had he been lesser known, just getting people to read your story in the first place is tough!


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## Daniel James (Nov 29, 2022)

I have worked with Mick a few times over the past 10 years or so, and he has always been one of the most dedicated and professional people I know.

Mick's version of events sounds precisely like the Mick I know and have interacted with many times in real life and I genuinely don't recognize the description presented by Marty at all. 

As others have mentioned, in this industry reputation is incredibly important, and nothing about Marty's statement rang true. It sounded spiteful. I have seen first hand how stressful these kinds of big projects can get. As I read Marty's account it felt more like he had more going behind the scenes but Mick somehow became the outlet for his frustration. Perhaps to save his own ass, perhaps its just easier to blame an outsider for your failures as its harder to defend oneself. Whatever possessed Marty to do what he did, he got it very, very wrong.

Mick has a focus I can only dream of, as I think the novella response is a good indicator of. He is incredibly methodical and treats things with the attention and care they deserve. To portray him as anything but is simply not true (or even worse as someone who drags his heels like was seemingly implied). And I imagine anyone else who has worked with Mick can probably share similar sentiments.

What a horrible situation to be in. Hope it all works out somehow!

-DJ


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## dannthr (Nov 30, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> I have worked with Mick a few times over the past 10 years or so, and he has always been one of the most dedicated and professional people I know.
> 
> Mick's version of events sounds precisely like the Mick I know and have interacted with many times in real life and I genuinely don't recognize the description presented by Marty at all.
> 
> ...


That's a really apt description for Mick. Focus and attention is a huge part of how he engages with both work and people. It's one of the most charming aspects of socializing with Mick, especially at conferences. You feel like he cares about what you have to say when you talk about yourself and he will ask questions like he wants to actually get to know you. At GDC, talking with Mick brings to stark relief how superficial all of the other social interactions you've had with people are--always who are you, what have you done, etc.

I know I'm biased weighing in here, but I've worked for Mick and my temptation is to say he's a hard worker, but I think you articulated it well, Daniel, in saying he's focused and dedicated. Just like with his social engagement, he brings to bear his whole focus and attention to his work. He has also successfully worked with one of the most notoriously demanding and abusive audio directors. So I don't doubt his capability in turning out quality revisions. He is also quite fast.

I'm inclined to be skeptical of Marty in general; partly because of my own biases. But also in game development, a Reddit post laying blame on a contractor is probably one of the most unstable and (legally) dangerous things to do. Half the reason we go to GDC is because we can't put in writing all the things we want to say and name the individuals we can't do anything about who make productions or our lives harder. NDAs are taken pretty seriously in this industry and having an executive go rogue on social media is a bad look on the company--I'm sure Bathesda was pissed at him. 

But more than that, laying blame on a contractor is literally NO EXCUSE. Saddling your Lead Sound Designer at the tail end of the project when they have the most work to do, with arranging and mastering a soundtrack is completely bonkers and speaks volumes about how little management understands or cares about soundtracks (and probably audio overall). Despite almost no interactions with Chad, I can't help but feel sorry for him getting caught in the middle of this. My guess is he acquiesced because there's no assuaging abusive executives and he was probably doing what executives probably saw as the same work implementing the soundtrack in the game (speculation).


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 30, 2022)

dannthr said:


> That's a really apt description for Mick. Focus and attention is a huge part of how he engages with both work and people. It's one of the most charming aspects of socializing with Mick, especially at conferences. You feel like he cares about what you have to say when you talk about yourself and he will ask questions like he wants to actually get to know you. At GDC, talking with Mick brings to stark relief how superficial all of the other social interactions you've had with people are--always who are you, what have you done, etc.
> 
> I know I'm biased weighing in here, but I've worked for Mick and my temptation is to say he's a hard worker, but I think you articulated it well, Daniel, in saying he's focused and dedicated. Just like with his social engagement, he brings to bear his whole focus and attention to his work. He has also successfully worked with one of the most notoriously demanding and abusive audio directors. So I don't doubt his capability in turning out quality revisions. He is also quite fast.
> 
> ...


it seems like the best skill high level management have is taking the credit for success and placing blame for failures.

I am being slightly facetious but I've certainly encountered the type


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## Epic Wonder (Dec 3, 2022)

Sad to hear so much drama surrounding music for a video game.

The only game series I would want to compose for is Super Mario Bros. I just love the music the old Nintendo games, especially Super Mario Bros. 3. Simple, but catchy!


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Dec 3, 2022)

Epic Wonder said:


> Sad to hear so much drama surrounding music for a video game.
> 
> The only game series I would want to compose for is Super Mario Bros. I just love the music the old Nintendo games, especially Super Mario Bros. 3. Simple, but catchy!



Yup :D


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