# How to fatten up epic orchestral cue without sound-design?



## dannymc (Apr 13, 2017)

hey guys when i write epic orchestral music i tend to combine electronica elements particularly Basslines with the traditional orchestral libraries. i find it really helps to drive a cue forward if i have a couple of frequency band synth Basslines going with the orchestra. 

i recently had a brief where i had to write a more traditional epic orchestral cue without any sound design stuff and just using the traditional instruments of the orchestra. i'm really struggling to make it sounds big and fat, it just sounds a bit too thin especially in the low end and mid lows. i especially feel its lacking energy when i get to the big climax section. i tried using long doublebass lines but that just makes everything muddy and drags the energy out instead. 

what techniques do you guys use with the orchestra to help the energy pump out and drive forward? thanks. 

Danny


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## Rodney Money (Apr 13, 2017)

Low brass, don't forget your darn tuba, and percussion.


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## Ollie (Apr 13, 2017)

What's a



dannymc said:


> frequency band synth


?


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## muk (Apr 13, 2017)

For the hits, your Taikos of doom, and especially a gran cassa. They have a pretty badass impact that can be felt as much as heard. For everything else, low brass, as Rodney mentioned. Contrabassoon, or even a piano pulsing at the lower octaves. Not that I am an expert on the matter.


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## Andrajas (Apr 13, 2017)

Its a lot of possibilities with a orchestra. To get a orchestra sound big and fat shouldn't be a problem. I would make sure to use the different octaves to spread things out. I remember one piece by Mozart, (can't remember the title tho), not the biggest ensemble, but damn, its sounded huge!. He used octaves in certain lines to "spread out" the pitches and it sounded awesome. 

that would be my tip, but I'm really no expert in orchestration and such.


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## Zhao Shen (Apr 13, 2017)

Brass is crucial. And though people make fun of trailer percussion, an epic cue without "oomph" often just lacks the right percussion.

After you have all the instrumentation down, that's 50%, and the mixing/mastering will take it the rest of the way. Cannot understate how important post-production is for beefy "epic" cues.


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## AdamKmusic (Apr 13, 2017)

Bass staccato, Cinematic Strings 2 are especially great


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## dannymc (Apr 13, 2017)

> Brass is crucial. And though people make fun of trailer percussion, an epic cue without "oomph" often just lacks the right percussion.



hi Zhao. the cue is to be epic and orchestral but not trailer sounding so i've tried to keep away from typical trailer big hits and dial it write back mainly only using real percussion, surdos and timps mainly.



> After you have all the instrumentation down, that's 50%, and the mixing/mastering will take it the rest of the way. Cannot understate how important post-production is for beefy "epic" cues.



yes that could be the problem alright. it could be just horrendous orchestration, arrangement and mixing. 

anyway here is a sample of the big section so you know what i'm on about. i'd welcome all tips and suggestions thanks.



Danny


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## NoamL (Apr 13, 2017)

Great start Danny! Now add *DAT BASS* 



You can doubtless do a much better job of making it sit in the mix, I just wrote a bassline next to your stereo file. If you make the bassline punchy and active it won't detract from the energy, rather add to it.


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## dannymc (Apr 13, 2017)

wow that sounds cool NoamL thanks, i've never heard bass applied that way, really effective 

what sample/library did you use for that contrabass? 

Danny


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## thesteelydane (Apr 13, 2017)

You need to feed it lots of epic dressing, that will fatten that sucker right up! It's also what I feed my little violins to turn them into fat violas. If you keep going and put them on a stick, you've got yourself some fat cellos!

Sorry, couldn't resist. 

Joking aside, I would suggest listening to lots of late romantic era classical music.


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## dannymc (Apr 13, 2017)

> I would suggest listening to lots of late romantic era classical music.



thanks man. any composers or actual pieces you could recommend? 

Danny


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## thesteelydane (Apr 13, 2017)

I'm hesitant to do that, because it's your journey and if you only listened to it in order to write trailer music, I would be sad. Go discover, not just for the sake of learning but for the sake of the music itself. That said, here are some suggestions.

 till the end. This piece is a MONUMENTAL spiritual journey, and a great human achievement in my book, and I'm not even religious, so I encourage you to listen to the whole thing from the beginning as well.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1pm-oq_XEZyT-CXy4GSb_SX7nhCXyS3S

 again you really should listen from the beginning for context

 Same thing


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## thesteelydane (Apr 13, 2017)

And of course this


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## NoamL (Apr 13, 2017)

dannymc said:


> what sample/library did you use for that contrabass?



Cellos & Trombone (Trailer Strings, Angry Trombone)
8va
Contrabasses & Low Brass (Trailer Strings, Trailer Brass)

might be overkill for your track if you want more traditional sound - Albion etc should do just fine as well.


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## dannymc (Apr 13, 2017)

> I'm hesitant to do that, because it's your journey and if you only listened to it in order to write trailer music, I would be sad. Go discover, not just for the sake of learning but for the sake of the music itself. That said, here are some suggestions.



no my goal is to write the best music i can. trailer style just happens to be simple enough form i can follow starting off but i plan to up skill to all levels of advanced composition as i continue to learn.

Danny


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## jonathanprice (Apr 13, 2017)

Low-end voicing is important too. Too many composers just hit the octaves. Try the root-fifth-third voicing: it's done a lot, but that's because it works.

[Edit: I suppose you could say the same of octaves, but I wouldn't.... ]


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## thesteelydane (Apr 13, 2017)

dannymc said:


> no my goal is to write the best music i can. trailer style just happens to be simple enough form i can follow starting off but i plan to up skill to all levels of advanced composition as i continue to learn.
> 
> Danny


 Don't we all....you're on the right path. I personally can't stand trailer music, but I can see why it's an appealing place to start. You're on the right path. On a side note, and as NoamL pointed out, having your bass line on octaves (and the low strings 8va in Albion is great for that) will help you fill out the orchestration. And remember bass lines don't have to be static. Study some basic counterpoint, Alain has a great course over on scoreclub.net - and Bach chorales, they will teach you everything you need to no about basic 4 part writing and how to make it interesting, and that is the foundation that good orchestration is built on.


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## Rodney Money (Apr 13, 2017)

Danny, another thing that you can do is record a low cc1 value tuba producing a fat, warm tone, crank up the volume and double it with high cc1 biting brass like Cinesamples Monster Low Brass or other cimbasso, bass trombones, etc. One of the warmest, fattest sounds I've heard also is mixing soft tubas and contrabass clarinets, then add the other stuff for bite.


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## Chris D (Apr 13, 2017)

Hey Danny!

Don't think it's been mentioned but if it hasn't try some subbass, medium attack, medium release, balance until its sits right, if it starts sounding muddy put a low pass filter on the subbass and use those ears  doesn't have to be loud, keep it subtle and it usually can beef up all that low end. Hope that helps.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 13, 2017)

How good is that Shostakovich symphonyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!! Ugh


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## trumpoz (Apr 13, 2017)

There was a post ages ago from Hans Zimmer explaining some the things he does to get the massive sound he does.

Timpanies and big drums recorded at lower dynamics as to retain the fullness of sound and ensure that the higher frequencies of the stick/beater hitting the skin are not as dominant. Same with low brass.

Orchestration is the biggest thing imo - mahler, Tchaikovsky et al were able produce huge orchestral sounds without sound design. Traditional orchestration also relies on making the most of the overtone series, hence why the 1, 5, 10 (3) voicing for a major chord sounds so big


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## P.N. (Apr 14, 2017)

Hi, Danny.
Good advices already. When you say "fatten up" do you also mean giving it more bass impact and dept too?
Like others said, low brass, tuba, bass bones and bass drum sparingly doubling the timpani.

This probably doesn't sound too much like what you're looking for, but maybe it helps.
It's more of a cinematic orchestra feel, Predator style.

[AUDIOPLUS=http://vi-control.net/community/attachments/take_04-mp3.8128/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## dannymc (Apr 14, 2017)

hey guys thanks for all the responses. as i said i guess the main thing is i felt my track just lacked meat in the low end and just wasn't sure of the best ways to thicken up the mix without resorting to bassline synths. i don't have a musical theory background and i still have loads if not everything to learn about orchestration so all i can go on is my ears.

here is a great example of what i mean about effective use of low meat in the orchestra. Patrick seems to be able to keep the whole orchestra sounding fat and especially the end climax section where it lifts at 1min 46secs its just fantastic. can someone breakdown orchestration and instrumentation wise whats going on here? he's definitely making good use of those timpani's at low velocity and can hear that anyway or maybe they're just orchestral bass-drum, good tip anyway. thanks.

p.s this is how i want to be able to write one day 



Danny


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## fixxer49 (Apr 14, 2017)

dannymc said:


> hey guys when i write epic orchestral music i tend to combine electronica elements particularly Basslines with the traditional orchestral libraries. i find it really helps to drive a cue forward if i have a couple of frequency band synth Basslines going with the orchestra.
> 
> i recently had a brief where i had to write a more traditional epic orchestral cue without any sound design stuff and just using the traditional instruments of the orchestra. i'm really struggling to make it sounds big and fat, it just sounds a bit too thin especially in the low end and mid lows. i especially feel its lacking energy when i get to the big climax section. i tried using long doublebass lines but that just makes everything muddy and drags the energy out instead.
> 
> ...



Try Spitfire Audio's ICENI (Albion 3?) library


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## benatural (Apr 14, 2017)

You can still use synths without making it sound synthy. When low end is lacking, I use sine and saw tooth waves to double my baselines to get that rich low end. If you mix it right you can't tell.


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## dannymc (Apr 14, 2017)

> You can still use synths without making it sound synthy. When low end is lacking, I use sine and saw tooth waves to double my baselines to get that rich low end. If you mix it right you can't tell.



yes i know that, and actually in the sample i posted i did cheat a little and do have a low sine saw bass mixed in at low volumes.  i just want to be able to do it like a classical composer would have to do it with just the instruments of the orchestra. 

Danny


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## benatural (Apr 14, 2017)

Some general orchestration considerations. When doubling instruments with instruments of the same family you get a more focused sound. When doubling with instruments of other families, you get a more transparent, less distinct sound. This applies to how you treat your low range instruments. 

Also consider frequency masking. The example you gave of low strings making things sound muddy could be a result of overtones from the basses conflicting with stuff above them. Sometimes EQ can help free space in the mix, other times a good thing to try is to leave some "space between the notes" to prevent overtone build up. Sometimes less is more when you're going for a big sound.


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## dannymc (Apr 16, 2017)

hey guys thanks for all your help. i think the track will be getting signed now which i'm happy about. for any of you interested, here is the finished track. its 90% done just need to tweak a little. couldn't resist a bit of sound design for the intro, but publishers seemed to like it in the end  hope you like it. 

Best, 



Danny


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## Flaneurette (Apr 16, 2017)

Bass. Making a very short pumping bassline with 8th, or 16th notes arpeggiating in 5ths. A clean sine wav is best for this. Any simple synth will do. High cut EQ on the bass. Then cut away all bass on the other instruments. Then limit and glue/compress the tracks together to make it cohesive and fat.

Root+5ths on itself will always work, because of it's power. Just cut out the 3rd mud. Works great on brass, double bass and cello.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 17, 2017)

trumpoz said:


> ...hence why the 1, 5, 10 (3) voicing for a major chord sounds so big



Love it when I come across little titbits of info like this...


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 17, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Low brass, don't forget your darn tuba, and percussion.



You can also reach freeked out levels of thickness by combining Braaam samples with the low brass on Hollywood Brass.

*Rodney* has already made some great posts on this subject.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 17, 2017)

Why stop there? Add some Iceni low brass to the mix too.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 17, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Why stop there? Add some Iceni low brass to the mix too.



You can bet _*I *_do!


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## novaburst (Apr 17, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Great start Danny! Now add *DAT BASS*
> 
> 
> 
> You can doubtless do a much better job of making it sit in the mix, I just wrote a bassline next to your stereo file. If you make the bassline punchy and active it won't detract from the energy, rather add to it.




This was ok but it instantly became uneven while the bottom end was doing well the top end sounded out of place,

perhaps it was only a demo so not to worry.

@dannymc herd your piece and immediately the first vibe that came to me was you need a lot more musicians, a lot more.

brass and percussion are a key, but more players and problem solved, you need to spend time with that and your library's, so of course a hell of a lot more work and tracks.


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## dannymc (Apr 17, 2017)

> brass and percussion are a key, but more players and problem solved, you need to spend time with that and your library's, so of course a hell of a lot more work and tracks.



hey Novaburst thanks. do you mean layering in more string libraries, more brass more percussion etc doing the same lines as whats already there?

Danny


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 17, 2017)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> How good is that Shostakovich symphonyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!! Ugh



That pretty much sums up how I feel about both the Symphony and Shostakovich. Go listen to the Mahler symphonies...besides the fact that Shosty basically worshipped his music, you'll just plain get a lot more out of them.

But that's just my opinion.


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## thesteelydane (Apr 17, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> That pretty much sums up how I feel about both the Symphony and Shostakovich. Go listen to the Mahler symphonies...besides the fact that Shosty basically worshipped his music, you'll just plain get a lot more out of them.
> 
> But that's just my opinion.


Let's not forget neither of these guys wrote music to get "placements" or gigs. Despite their significant personal struggles, they wrote music for the betterment of mankind. I don't think any of us in this thread are doing that, but who knows. Just a thought...


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 17, 2017)

thesteelydane said:


> Let's not forget neither of these guys wrote music to get "placements" or gigs. Despite their significant personal struggles, they wrote music for the betterment of mankind. I don't think any of us in this thread are doing that, but who knows. Just a thought...



They wrote music because they loved it and made money at it, something a lot of people here do. As far as imagining it helps better mankind...well I would hope we *all* want that, correct? No disrespect, but your post seems kind of redundant. That's not a criticism, by the way, just an observation.

I do it because I love music and I do get paid (about enough to pay my rent) for it. And if my music does better mankind, heck I'd be the happiest person alive!* *


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## Rodney Money (Apr 17, 2017)

thesteelydane said:


> Let's not forget neither of these guys wrote music to get "placements" or gigs. Despite their significant personal struggles, they wrote music for the betterment of mankind. I don't think any of us in this thread are doing that, but who knows. Just a thought...


Big assumption...


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 17, 2017)

I think the majority of muscicans wrote because they enjoy it. I would imagine the vast majority of musicians both alive and dead, were unpaid "amateurs" and therefore only a tiny fraction were paid for their work (or at least paid enough and regularly to be a professional musician/composer). 

I mean, where do you think Spitfire or East West or NI make most of there money from? Working producers/composers? Or bedroom producers/hobbyists?

Everyone would like to be paid for their art, but very few are (in any meaningful way).


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## novaburst (Apr 17, 2017)

dannymc said:


> hey Novaburst thanks. do you mean layering in more string libraries, more brass more percussion etc doing the same lines as whats already there?
> 
> Danny



Not so much layering but more string sections and brass sections. so in place of maybe a 16 violin section do a 26 to 30, then pan them out, first you can do you largest ensemble you have, then grab your solos and do a few tracks lanes with it to build the ensemble up weather it be string, and string bass, and cellos and brass, its a lot of work but very effective


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## NoamL (Apr 18, 2017)

novaburst said:


> This was ok but it instantly became uneven while the bottom end was doing well the top end sounded out of place,
> 
> perhaps it was only a demo so not to worry.



Yes, it's not a particularly great bassline either. Just demonstrating the concept of ottava bass.


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## thesteelydane (Apr 19, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> They wrote music because they loved it and made money at it, something a lot of people here do. As far as imagining it helps better mankind...well I would hope we *all* want that, correct? No disrespect, but your post seems kind of redundant. That's not a criticism, by the way, just an observation.
> 
> I do it because I love music and I do get paid (about enough to pay my rent) for it. And if my music does better mankind, heck I'd be the happiest person alive!* *



Yeah you're right, and it wasn't directed at you in particular. My point was more that they wrote the music they NEEDED to write from a personal commitment to the art, they weren't concerned with writing music that was sellable or marketable, although Shostakovich certainly had to walk a knife-edge in regards to to Stalin. There's a big difference between writing a piece of library music in the hopes of selling it, and writing a piece of music that will get you killed if it pisses off the wrong guy - and then chosing to not just write it, but to push the envelope as far as he did. And Mahler certainly didn't write music for money, he was one of the most succesful conductors of his time. He had many other problems to deal with, but he wasn't relying on his symphonies to put bread on the table. 

I just get a little miffed when we start comparing media music to the likes of Mahler and Shostakovich. It's just not of equal value, and if that makes me a musical snob, then I'm ok with that. 

I'm not criticising anyone here, we're all in the same boat and my own biggest dream is to make my living solely from writing, even if it means writing stock library music - it's still a more satisfying job than almost anything else I can think of. If then - someday - I get secure enough financially to devote time to write music that I WANT to write for my own enjoyment, rather than what the client wants, then I'll be a happy camper. I also know that I could study for 100 years and never be able to touch someone like Mahler, and I'm ok with that - that's not why I do it.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 19, 2017)

thesteelydane said:


> I'm not criticising anyone here, we're all in the same boat and my own biggest dream is to make my living solely from writing, even if it means writing stock library music - it's still a more satisfying job than almost anything else I can think of. If then - someday - I get secure enough financially to devote time to write music that I WANT to write for my own enjoyment, rather than what the client wants, then I'll be a happy camper.



Sounds to me like you've got it together. I wish you happiness and success.


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## Rodney Money (Apr 25, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> ive definitely been thinking more about this lately... and I feel like the volume knob has gotten lazy... that said - I've been trying match my instrument levels to recordings as I build my first real template - and I have definitely paid more attention to what instruments work well together for enforcement... even now, I'm arming the bassoon + contrabassoon + bass flute + bass clarinet...


I have found that bassoon works great with bass clarinet since they share the same register while contrabassoon works great with contrabass clarinet since they share the same register. Then you can mix tuba with the contrabass mix for additional warmth and fullness or even euphonium with the bassoon/ bass clarinet mix. So thick and chocolatey you may never need a double bass again, lol. I tend to use for my personal use concerning the bass flute as simply an unique solo instrument or to fill out a flute choir.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 25, 2017)

Big-ass reverb (in addition to all the other suggestions here). Not muddy-ass, big-ass.


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## dannymc (Aug 1, 2017)

fixxer49 said:


> Try Spitfire Audio's ICENI (Albion 3?) library



actually i'm in the market for a new library that has more aggressive sounding low end from strings & brass particularly. especially is the short articulations staccs/spics.

Iceni was one i'm looking at closely, the other is Metropolis Ark 1. now i watched demo's on both and i still cant make up my mind. i don't like the guitar or choir section (not enough control over the phrases) in MK1 so i would be mainly buying for the brass and strings which do sound great. on the other hand Iceni looks like it doesn't have as much range or content in the brass or maybe i'm wrong. what are peoples thoughts on these two libraries?

i particularly would be curious to hear from composers who have both and use for epic & trailer music.

lastly i already have albion one which might mean better blending of the albion libraries.

Danny


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## benatural (Aug 1, 2017)

Ark's brass can be huge sounding and the quality is very easy to dial in. Try doubling all brass and be sure to add in the cimbasso. The fact that you can turn down the cimbasso is pretty unrealistic considering how a loud those things are, but hey we're dealing with samples
I reaIly like their strings, not just for a bug sound, but their legato is easy to control and it's easy to get it to sound good. 

I also have Icini and tbh I haven't quit found a place for it yet in my writing. I suspect I just need to go back to the walkthrough to check out it's strengths.


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## dannymc (Aug 1, 2017)

benatural said:


> Ark's brass can be huge sounding and the quality is very easy to dial in. Try doubling all brass and be sure to add in the cimbasso. The fact that you can turn down the cimbasso is pretty unrealistic considering how a loud those things are, but hey we're dealing with samples
> I reaIly like their strings, not just for a bug sound, but their legato is easy to control and it's easy to get it to sound good.
> 
> I also have Icini and tbh I haven't quit found a place for it yet in my writing. I suspect I just need to go back to the walkthrough to check out it's strengths.



hey man thanks for this, that's very useful. 

Danny


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## NoamL (Aug 1, 2017)

I agree, as an Iceni owner who has played with Ark on my boss's rig. Get MA1. You have epic sections covering the entire orchestra. Iceni is more limited. There are some cool things about it like two full cello sections panned left and right. And it has the AIR hall sound, and I really like the low woodwind sounds... Iceni IS a good library  but MA1 is just killer.


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