# Dunshield - our passive fader controller is in the works



## Dunshield (Jan 28, 2019)

Hi VI community

We will be releasing an 8-channel passive fader controller in the near future, and I thought to give you a heads up with this thread.

Our fader controller is hand made and built like a tank, with 8 long throw 100 mm faders and quality components. It has a clean design, all black aluminum casing - not slanted but flat, with USB connectivity, and a solid piece of code that runs the device.

The controller might also feature a pitchbend/modwheel assembly and 4 assignable buttons; we are still in the developing phase regarding these features and would like to hear from you if these additions would be welcome ==> see poll in this thread.

The controller can be used as a stand alone unit, and it can be fully integrated into our Dunshield Composer Desk where it will sit snug on either side of the built-in Kawai VPC-1; more on this later.

Too much for now to be shared here, I'll post more info as the design evolves.

Thanks for reading.

Cheers
Emanuel
http://www.dunshield.com (www.dunshield.com)


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## willbedford (Jan 29, 2019)

A box with 4 mod wheels and nothing else would be perfect for me. Not really a fan of using faders for dynamics+expression. I've spoken with other composers who feel the same.


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## Dunshield (Jan 29, 2019)

willbedford said:


> A box with 4 mod wheels and nothing else would be perfect for me. Not really a fan of using faders for dynamics+expression. I've spoken with other composers who feel the same.



Interesting. What would be a decent mod wheel be to you? Any synth out there with your preference of mod wheel on it? I myself am a big fan of the mod wheels that sit on a Roland A-90. I emailed Roland asking them whether or not we could purchase those exact mod wheel assemblies still in a rather large number. Answer was no. And at Syntaur and the likes these parts are expensive and rare. In the original design of our controller there actually were two A-90 mod wheels present, sitting neatly on top of the pitchbender/mod assembly. 3D printing is an option but it does not come cheap. In the end our primary goal is to build a controller that finds at least 50 clients.

At any rate your suggestion is duly noted, and we are looking into this.
Any other suggestions like this are welcome and listened to.

* I have just emailed Doepfer and inquired whether their single modulation wheel would be available in a rather large quantity. Their dual wheel is too deep to fit the box, but the single wheel should fit.


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## Dunshield (Jan 31, 2019)

We're getting a pair of Doepfer mod wheels for prototyping, and some pitchbending/modulation XY joysticks are also on order.

Thank you to all who voted on the poll so far!


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## whiskers (Jan 31, 2019)

Curiosity is getting the better of me: dare I ask a rough price range?


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## AdamKmusic (Jan 31, 2019)

Something like HZ's would be great with some extra buttons (I just realised I clicked only faders on the poll). Making it more affordable would be great too, this costs $3199.95

https://jlcooper.com/_php/product.php?prod=eclipsemxl2m


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## d.healey (Jan 31, 2019)

Dunshield said:


> and a solid piece of code that runs the device.


Tell me more...


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## munician (Jan 31, 2019)

I'm very interested! A few modwheels sounds like a great idea, in combo with a few faders. Faders seem to stay in place better than the modwheel - mine at least (Doepfer).

Now that I think about it - I'd probably use the wheels for musical performance and the faders more for the technical side.
And if you could do the routing inside Logic -

you really could be onto something here...


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jan 31, 2019)

I'd love to have a modwheel or two decoupled from the keyboard. Even more than faders. But both are important.


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## jazzmaster12345 (Jan 31, 2019)

Really glad someone is trying to build this. I've been using Palette gear which is fine but it's not the best and the faders are a little too far spread apart. However, the best part of it is the desktop app lets you create profiles very easily. It's also easy to switch the profiles with a button. So it's nice to a profile for various plugins. I assume having some kind of LED screen which can show the name of the profiles might make too expensive but the new NI keyboards does this very well. This way, you don't always have to look at the software to see what profile you currently are looking at.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 31, 2019)

I mean I'd love to have that box HZ has in the photo above...but $3200...dang...


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## stonzthro (Jan 31, 2019)

Multiple banks please!


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## Harzmusic (Feb 1, 2019)

A Modwheel would be nice, but I would buy it even if it was just faders.
I have been looking for something that just has easily assignable faders for Midi CCs and no other nonsense that just takes up desk space.


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## chimuelo (Feb 1, 2019)

Didn’t see the option but what made BCF2000 so popular were Continuos Controllers plus USB plus Faders.
I use a Physis K4 and quite happy but used an MC3000D for years and it was an amazing piece of gear, nobody ever sells theirs.

Nice Smooth 100mm faders like my Consoles in a box with Continuos Controllers and 3 Wheels would be totally unique and worthy of a few large.


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## fiestared (Feb 1, 2019)

Dunshield said:


> Hi VI community
> 
> We will be releasing an 8-channel passive fader controller in the near future, and I thought to give you a heads up with this thread.
> 
> ...



I'm also very interested. For myself, two Oor more mod wheels, plus faders would be great, what we are all looking for is the "Zippo" of controllers, constructed like a tank and in the same time clever and a bit wild... I hope you see what I mean


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## Dunshield (Feb 1, 2019)

whiskers said:


> Curiosity is getting the better of me: dare I ask a rough price range?



Would love to give you a price but it's too early to tell.
Will keep you posted.



AdamKmusic said:


> Something like HZ's would be great with some extra buttons (I just realised I clicked only faders on the poll). Making it more affordable would be great too, this costs $3199.95



I remember that Eclipse controller, it's expensive and seems a bit bulky. LCD buttons are pricey.

We considered implementing one small Oled screen per fader; it would read what the fader does. Price goes up really fast with tech like this, and there's a considerable amount of programming to be done. Better keep it simple and affordable. We could launch a bundle deal of the controller with a classic DYMO label maker. Instant hipster look and cool vibes.



d.healey said:


> Tell me more...



Decent software is the real challenge here isn't it!
Hang in there, I'll get back on this.



jazzmaster12345 said:


> .. However, the best part of it is the desktop app lets you create profiles very easily. It's also easy to switch the profiles with a button. So it's nice to a profile for various plugins. I assume having some kind of LED screen which can show the name of the profiles might make too expensive ..



Great idea and it crossed my mind too, having a small Oled screen that reads the active preset and a button to navigate through the presets. As you said it will up the price. Duly noted though.



stonzthro said:


> Multiple banks please!



YES! Should be covered in the software.



chimuelo said:


> Nice Smooth 100mm faders like my Consoles in a box with Continuos Controllers and 3 Wheels would be totally unique and worthy of a few large.



I agree on the combo you described. Would 2 wheels be enough though? Am trying to make it as compact as possible, and wheels take up a lot of real estate.

Eyeing the poll we could end up doing different models - that is if there's enough demand for each model. It would look something like this:

- model A = 8 ~ 10 faders
- model B = 4 faders + 2 mod wheels + pitchbend/mod joystick + 2 buttons + 2 rotary encoders

However: distilling all of this down to one single model would make it more affordable.



fiestared said:


> I'm also very interested. For myself, two Oor more mod wheels, plus faders would be great, what we are all looking for is the "Zippo" of controllers, constructed like a tank and in the same time clever and a bit wild... I hope you see what I mean



I see what you mean and I couldn't agree more.


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## Dunshield (Feb 1, 2019)

PS
Great input guys and galls, keep it coming.

On a personal note I would love to implement some Yamaha CS 50/60/80 style levers in the design. I'm a lucky owner of a CS 60 and those vintage levers work really well for musical control over sound. My expectation is that these will translate as great for musical control over CC. Still looking for this kind of potmeter though and so far no luck. I am not promising anything, this is a side quest, but I'm passionate about this. Here's a video of what I mean (click to link) and I've included a photo. Any leads on a part like this are welcome.


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## Grégory Betton (Feb 1, 2019)

To add my two cents,

the best imho would be a quick way to put faders at the last CC used value (without using motorized faders... I know, quite a challenge!).

I'd also like something with the same configurability than the Faderfox UC4 (and other models) but of course less tiny and more comfortable (the UC4 size is perfect for traveling though).

Good luck and good work!


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## benmrx (Feb 1, 2019)

IMO we need something like the Palette Gear + StreamDeck merged into a single unit. Imagine a 'base unit' with say 4 sliders, 4 modwheels, 4 buttons with LED screens displaying text that tells us what each piece is controlling. Combine it with 'profiles' so we can easily switch what type of data each piece controls, and allow us to switch profiles based on certain criteria. Either through quick keys, images on the screen, pixel values, etc. 

This is one of the ways I've started using my StreamDeck in combination with Keyboard Maestro.


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## Dunshield (Feb 1, 2019)

Grégory Betton said:


> .. a quick way to put faders at the last CC used value (without using motorized faders... I know, quite a challenge!).



Not sure that I get what you mean, could you elaborate?


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## chimuelo (Feb 1, 2019)

Brotha’ Man Dunsfield,
An option for a Mod Wheel instead of having 3 would be some switches with assignable CC# assignments.
My 3rd wheel is for master volume when I go to solo sections it kicks up 10db.
Don’t have an FOH these days.
But my other wheel is assignable for filter Cutoff, detune, vibrato, Rotary Cabinet speeds.
Maybe have a few buttons, small like Bus routings on s consoles channel.
That way you can avoid using a preset just because the wheel assignment is a certain needed function.

Just a thought.
CS80 levers were definately unique.


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## Grégory Betton (Feb 1, 2019)

Dunshield said:


> Not sure that I get what you mean, could you elaborate?


With motorized faders you can follow automation and start back where you left when switching tracks. It would be awesome if you find a way to do the same with midi data... or at least help us to put the fader back in position manually.


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## brenneisen (Feb 1, 2019)

Grégory Betton said:


> It would be awesome if you find a way to do the same with midi data...



it can't be done


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## chimuelo (Feb 1, 2019)

brenneisen said:


> it can't be done



Why not?
Just curious.
I had motorized faders on my Yamaha DMP7. Then on the BCF 2000.
Always thought they’d be way more fun with MIDI.

I use a Physis K4 and all MIDI CC#s are recalled in between banks scenes and performances, but would to see my 9 faders, and 9 knobs auto relocate like that.


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## Dunshield (Feb 2, 2019)

Grégory Betton said:


> With motorized faders you can follow automation and start back where you left when switching tracks. It would be awesome if you find a way to do the same with midi data... or at least help us to put the fader back in position manually.



I agree it would be awesome. The challenge is that with Midi that there's no way to tell the faders which track they should read. Say you're on a strings track and your session also contains 25 other tracks that have some sort of Midi CC going on, and another 50 Midi tracks from software VST's that have no Midi CC; how does the Midi controller know that you're on that particular strings track so it can show you its values?

Even if we used motorized faders; how do we tell the controller that it is to read that very track? I mean, for audio track volume faders there is a protocol in place called MCU, and it's quite cumbersome to go through banks of 8 tracks to find your track - and then when you locate your track there's basically only volume to control. But for Midi there's no communication standard like that in place, plus there's often 4 or more parameters to control per track.

It would require some intelligence from the Midi CC software to know which track to read, OR it would require a standard between DAW's to somehow output the data of just the Midi channel that is selected. By my knowing none of this is in place yet. BUT it would be thrilling to find a solution to this. And motorized faders are the way to go then I'd say.

Question: are 100 mm faders absolutely necessary, or could we do with 60 mm faders, but motorized?


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## Dunshield (Feb 2, 2019)

The options are evolving in this direction:

- Model A = 8 ~ 10 faders, passive // joystick for pitch and mod might be available as an option
- Model B = joystick for pitch and mod // 2 mod wheels with toggles // 4 motorized 60 mm faders with tiny oLED screen per fader and toggles to skip between CC's // a couple of buttons and rotaries.

* motorized only if doable regarding automation, see post above
* bank switch options are in consideration for both models
* still looking for a way to unite both models into one ultimate box

The case would measure 230 x 173 x 44 mm ==> that 44 mm is height and is just the case. Add 5 mm for rubber feet, and add the height of the fader caps or wheels/joystick.


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## Dunshield (Feb 4, 2019)

Some parts have been coming in over the past week. We're starting to get a feel of where this is going and boy is it exciting. 2 more joysticks are on order, and a couple of bender assemblies will follow soon. The part on the right with the red cap is a lever coming of my CS60 btw, I'm looking into ways to getting this part remanufactured.


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## Normqn (Feb 9, 2019)

Looking forward to this !
Can't find anything other than the NanoKontrol2 but faders are shit and small. 
The FaderCTRL was the best thing, if you manage to go all the way, I'll be buying this.
Thx for you work


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## jjb0737 (Feb 28, 2019)

Four 100mm non motorized midi faders, pitch wheel, a few rotary knobs, and two motorized faders with LCD: one that can follow which track is selected for track volume automation (not midi cc) and one that can stay as a master fader.

I have a JP cooper fadermaster, faderctrl, and an avid artist mix and I would easily spend 1k to have one fader box that does everything.


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## danbo (Mar 31, 2019)

AdamKmusic said:


> Something like HZ's would be great with some extra buttons (I just realised I clicked only faders on the poll). Making it more affordable would be great too, this costs $3199.95
> 
> https://jlcooper.com/_php/product.php?prod=eclipsemxl2m



Are we talking for transport/Mackie type control, or general CC's for VI expression control (typically)? That JL Cooper you show looks designed more for transport/Mackie, but for that why not just get an X Touch for a fraction of the price (I have them and they work great - built like a tank and have LCD's on each strip). For general CC the consensus seems to be you want passive not active*, for which the JL FaderMaster is the standard (I also have and works great).

This unit discussed appears to be directed at CC, so to succeed would have to be either cheaper or better than the JL FaderMaster I think. 

*it gets complicated trying to route CC's back to an active fader, for one if you jump the playhead around it doesn't know what the present CC value is, depending on your automation state


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## VinRice (Apr 1, 2019)

If you ask people what they want they will simply request more and more functionality and you'll end up with a hard to manufacture monster with an endless software cycle. Start simple. 4 and 8 fader boxes, USB and web-based configuration.


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## BradHoyt (Apr 2, 2019)

I'll throw in my 2 cents: The FaderCtrl was a pretty big hit from what I can tell, and that was a homemade unit with only 8 100mm faders. I have one. If you are using it primarily for adjusting MIDI CC info on virtual instruments, it's the absolute best. I wouldn't use shorter faders. There are a lot of cheap units out there that have little faders (korg comes to mind) - 100mm sets you apart. I'd start with 8 100mm faders, and if you want to add a joystick where you can assign the X and Y axis to different MIDI CCs, that'd be totally kick ass.


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## Dunshield (Apr 4, 2019)

VinRice said:


> If you ask people what they want they will simply request more and more functionality and you'll end up with a hard to manufacture monster with an endless software cycle. Start simple. 4 and 8 fader boxes, USB and web-based configuration.



Good call Vin, thanks for that.



BradHoyt said:


> I'll throw in my 2 cents: The FaderCtrl was a pretty big hit from what I can tell, and that was a homemade unit with only 8 100mm faders. I have one. If you are using it primarily for adjusting MIDI CC info on virtual instruments, it's the absolute best. I wouldn't use shorter faders. There are a lot of cheap units out there that have little faders (korg comes to mind) - 100mm sets you apart. I'd start with 8 100mm faders, and if you want to add a joystick where you can assign the X and Y axis to different MIDI CCs, that'd be totally kick ass.



Amen! Thanks Brad.

Shout out to everyone who contributed to this thread + vote so far. The way forward is slowly but surely being lit.


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## Grégory Betton (Apr 4, 2019)

Dunshield said:


> Good call Vin, thanks for that.
> Shout out to everyone who contributed to this thread + vote so far. The way forward is slowly but surely being lit.


Let's keep us posted. I'm very curious about what you're designing!


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## yak (May 25, 2019)

Your project is the best news I have heard in years. I have seen a number of solutions and somehow none of them are great. I am looking forward to your project coming to market. BTW, I would love to see more pictures of your progress.


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## whiskers (May 25, 2019)

I am highly intrigued by this project, but my gut tells me I can't afford it


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## whinecellar (May 25, 2019)

Another vote for a simple 4-8 (100mm) fader metal box with pitch & mod wheels, all high quality components, in as small a footprint as possible, easily programmable, bus powered, class compliant/no drivers necessary. That would allow you to use any controller you prefer and have this box be your “left hand home base.” Kinda like the Doepfer approach, but more/longer/better faders, and choose your own action! Put me down for one!


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## puremusic (May 25, 2019)

I'd be happy with 1 pitchwheel, 1 modwheel, 4 80-100mm faders in a box. Low profile and slim as possible.

Well that's my 2 cents.


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## Dewdman42 (May 25, 2019)

have any of you guys experimented with game joysticks and the like?


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## puremusic (May 25, 2019)

You must have fun with that CS60!


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## puremusic (May 25, 2019)

I saw some software for using game joysticks once. Never tried it though. I can't envision how it'd give me good fine control compared to other options.


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## Divico (May 26, 2019)

puremusic said:


> I saw some software for using game joysticks once. Never tried it though. I can't envision how it'd give me good fine control compared to other options.


As far as I remember Reaper has an option for this


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## Dunshield (May 26, 2019)

Thanks people for this new surge of comments. We've been hard at work designing other family members for our Dunshield line of studio desks and furniture, and make no mistake the MIDI controller is on that list.

Also great to see the votes are still coming in.



puremusic said:


> I'd be happy with 1 pitchwheel, 1 modwheel, 4 80-100mm faders in a box. Low profile and slim as possible.



Making the controller as low profile as possible is a goal for sure, but adding the pitchbend/mod wheels - even optionally - will make the unit 45 mm high - measured from the base of the unit to the top panel (so excl the fader caps etc.). If this was a faders only controller that height could be reduced.


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## yak (May 26, 2019)

Dunshield said:


> Making the controller as low profile as possible is a goal for sure, but adding the pitchbend/mod wheels - even optionally - will make the unit 45 mm high .



I think having a flatter device outweighs the benefit of an integrated pitchbend/mod wheel. Perhaps having a separate device that would do that make more sense.


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## yak (May 26, 2019)

puremusic said:


> I saw some software for using game joysticks once. Never tried it though. I can't envision how it'd give me good fine control compared to other options.



Don't know about using a game joystick but Roland has a low profile joystick built into their stage pianos:

See Roland RD-800 for reference.

FYI: Can't submit a link since the site interpreted my liking as spam. :-\


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## Dunshield (May 26, 2019)

yak said:


> I think having a flatter device outweighs the benefit of an integrated pitchbend/mod wheel. Perhaps having a separate device that would do that make more sense.



I hear you in regards to flatness of the device.

The poll shows that there's a big interest in a pitch/mod controller though, and I want to see that through as well. I have come across a low profile pitch/mod joystick that is used in one of those Korg mini keyboards. Have not tested it yet. I'm wary of its resolution capabilities though, but I heard they are a lot of fun - the latter is a feature we're not exactly looking for.

I'll have a look at that RD 800 part.

As you say having 2 separate devices might be the way to go and it could be possible if we have enough sales of both items.



puremusic said:


> I saw some software for using game joysticks once. Never tried it though. I can't envision how it'd give me good fine control compared to other options.



Many game joysticks are in fact simple switches on a 2 axis plane; so it's either Left position / Center / Right position / Top position / Bottom position. So zero values in between say Hard Left and Dead Center.

Needless to say that a true pitch bend or mod wheel is a continuous controller; it has a stream of values, so it is a potmeter of some kind.

There is a thread on Gearslutz on this very topic if I remember correctly.


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## puremusic (May 26, 2019)

Yeah I've seen some keyboards with joystick controllers, there was one I wanted to buy but for that it had that instead of standard mod/pitch wheels. If I could've gotten a separate mod/pitchwheel it might be still considered. 

I like the separate mod/pitchwheel device idea. 4 separate faders is good too. Another idea is instead of mod/pitchwheel, mod/pitch trackpad like on the Keystep, then 4 faders. Might be able to still be slimline that way?

I prefer wheels to the trackpad type, but the ones on my Keystep, they're not bad at all and you can do some things you can't do with wheels with them, i.e., skip around. Sometimes this works great, sometimes, a lot of kontakt instruments can't handle that big a change if it's to dynamics and get all crackly though.


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## Grégory Betton (May 27, 2019)

You mean like the joysticks of the https://www.studiologic-music.com/products/sl-grand/ (SL Studio 88 Grand)?


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## babylonwaves (May 27, 2019)

Slimline is more important to me than additional controls such as a pitch/modwheel section. to me, it's important that the heel of the hand can rest on something. if you look for instance at a Presonus Faderport this works better than a FaderCTRL which is a bit high. A joystick I personally find totally useless. never liked it in the Prophet VS or the Yamaha SY22 for instance. If I want a 2d control, I prefer an iPad for instance. Maybe that's all a bit different when you produce surround format (which I don't do).


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## Dewdman42 (May 27, 2019)

Grégory Betton said:


> You mean like the joysticks of the https://www.studiologic-music.com/products/sl-grand/ (SL Studio 88 Grand)?



No. A gaming joystick. I was thinking something much bigger, but I'm just curious if anyone has tried anything. it would involved setting something up to convert it to midi.


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## Grégory Betton (May 27, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> No. A gaming joystick. I was thinking something much bigger, but I'm just curious if anyone has tried anything. it would involved setting something up to convert it to midi.


Could be easily done with some code indeed. If you have programming skill, you should have a look to libraries such as :https://github.com/carldanley/node-gamepad and https://github.com/mudcube/MIDI.js/


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## Dewdman42 (May 27, 2019)

There are some products already existing to handle it. I'm just wondering if anyone here has actually TRIED it and how it worked out compared to say 100mm faders, which are so hard to come by these days


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## burp182 (May 27, 2019)

It would seem that an inexpensive properly sized trackpad might be a good solution to the joystick issue. A simple and adjustable “return to center” bit of software could prove useful. All this could seemingly be done either as an integrated option or a small standalone add on very quite cost effectively.


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## jonnybutter (Jun 16, 2019)

Just my 2p. I see pitch/mod wheel spoken of together so much in this thread, but pitch bend and mod wheel are so different! As far as I know, there is no pitch bend add on device on the market. Mod wheel functions can be handled in other ways - fader, track pad - but the center detent spring action return to zero pitch bend is unique, physically. I'd love to have one I can plug into my hub. I suppose because of depth, if you add one you may as well add the other, but...eh, I don't care that much about a mod _wheel_, even though I'm fairly used to using one. 

I have a fadercntrl, and it's working just fine, but I'd certainly consider getting a box with pitch bend and faders too. Those yamaha levers are cool too...


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## Ryan Fultz (Jun 20, 2019)

So cool to see you doing this and I'm very intrigued to see what you do and what you prioritize. I'm a little late to the party, but I think I'll add my thoughts in maybe a slightly different way than I've seen from most of the posts. Here is my setup and here is what I wish I could improve on it:

My keyboard is a digital piano with great hammer action, but no modwheel/pitchbend etc.

For the pitch bend I have to draw it in. It sucks, absolutely sucks to not have a pitchbend for the virtual instruments that can sound more realistic with it like guitars. I'm not aware of any external device I could add that has it and doesn't have a keyboard attached that will take up valuable real estate on my desk/piano area. That would make me look heavily at something cheap with small footprint that solved it. The quick snap back to zero is so important that any other device just doesn't cut it. X/Y as part of that device would mean less accurate bending, but I'd probably accept that compromise. 

For the majority of my instruments I use the pallete gear setup and the things I love are :
- modular (least important)
- solid construction 
- those arcade style buttons are the most satisfying things to tap for simple commands
-super well-designed interface for assigning the pieces to CC, midi notes, or keyboard commands and the ability to change profiles from the device itself is amazing. 
- the color assigning to pieces works just fine for me to identify instantly what I'm looking at
- endless turn with knobs makes certain things like play head movements great.
-being able to push in the knob gives them an additional function that creates more control without increased footprint on the desk

What is less great:
- Faders are a bit wide apart
- the shape makes going up and down more difficult when using multiple with one hand
- knobs are a bit slow to respond and require too much movement to make them enter a CC making them hard to use as knobs on a synth filter for example
- endless spin makes entering 1-127 cc data less precise and easy

For a few samples like embertone' strings an x/y axis works best. I have a tablet with touch osc on it that I use.
The good:

- Great dual control, much more intuitive to playing and entering data than faders

The bad:
Hard to tell the outer bounds of the x/y space, keyswitching live on it is impossible and some silly joke, if I were a virtuoso pianist I bet I could actually really like and prefer the tablet setup, but with my current piano skills it's an impossibility to keep all of that in my mind at once. 6 or so SMALL buttons that could be assigned to keycommands or notes would be amazing right above a physical joystick to make using it and still have articulations available.

I have no velocity sensitive pads to play in percussion parts and having like 4 of those (as someone coming from a drumming background originally) that I could assign to midi note values to would be a freaking godsend and speed up all my percussion writing to the point of just playing a pass one time and being done. (Currently looking at e-kits or a roland brain and a couple pads to fulfill this, but just thought I'd give you more to think about in terms of who you would market to.)

So there's my long breakdown.


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## Dunshield (Jun 21, 2019)

jonnybutter said:


> Just my 2p. I see pitch/mod wheel spoken of together so much in this thread, but pitch bend and mod wheel are so different! As far as I know, there is no pitch bend add on device on the market. Mod wheel functions can be handled in other ways - fader, track pad - but the center detent spring action return to zero pitch bend is unique, physically. I'd love to have one I can plug into my hub. I suppose because of depth, if you add one you may as well add the other, but...eh, I don't care that much about a mod _wheel_, even though I'm fairly used to using one.
> 
> I have a fadercntrl, and it's working just fine, but I'd certainly consider getting a box with pitch bend and faders too. Those yamaha levers are cool too...



Thanks Jonny, that's a very helpful comment and insight.

Separate mod wheels or pitch benders seem not to be commercially available - except for the Doepfer (Fatar?) part, which we purchased and tested and found not te be satisfactory.

Any regular pitch bender will also require a certain build-in depth, which does not comply with our aim to keep the controller as low profile as possible.

We did find a hi-quality joystick with center return, that is super precise and renders high resolution data to work with. It is a "joy" to work with as a pitchbend/mod combo. It can also be ordered without the center return, so it is a great allrounder and it fits the design beautifully. Also the depth of the part is rather shallow, in fact it is half as deep compared to other wheels or benders. so we can keep the case low profile with this part.

==> Most benders will require a bulky +42 mm of depth, and that is without the feet or lids, so this would render a 50 mm high desktop case.

So lots of things to consider here, and we feel the Joystick we found checks all the right boxes: high quality, precision, shallow built-in depth, optional center return - and a dead center return at that, great feel, nimble .. It is not the cheapest part though, but it is a quality piece so it will serve the user for many, many years.


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## Dunshield (Jun 21, 2019)

Ryan Fultz said:


> So cool to see you doing this and I'm very intrigued to see what you do and what you prioritize.



Many thanks Ryan for that breakdown and taking the time to write it all up.

See my reply to Jonny in the post above regarding the pitchbend X/Y challenge.

Velocity sensitive pads! Excellent suggestion.

Question: Palette Gear has the faders spaced at 45 mm, correct? Could you live with 25 ~ 30 mm? That would make it a bit wider than FaderCtrl, which has the faders spaced at 20 mm.


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## Ryan Fultz (Jun 21, 2019)

Dunshield said:


> Question: Palette Gear has the faders spaced at 45 mm, correct? Could you live with 25 ~ 30 mm? That would make it a bit wider than FaderCtrl, which has the faders spaced at 20 mm.



If they had the normal console shape instead of the shape pallete gear uses it would be a huge improvement. 

The pallete gear faders look great, but the shape makes them far harder to control in a musical situation.


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## Dunshield (Nov 14, 2019)

Hi guys


Time for a long awaited update.

First of: THANK YOU for all of the 134 votes so far.
And keep them coming, you will not be ignored.

The voting shows an interesting diversification: the options are evenly spread out over what everybody wants or needs. It looks like a pathway towards a modular system.

Besides MIDI, I am also very much interested in other types of controllers: DAW control, plugin control, synth control, VSTi control, even Photoshop / Da Vinci Resolve / Premiere .. and my personal favorite: Studio monitor control. So the *modular* aspect wins again. Glad to have that confirmed.

Realistically speaking: just going for MIDI control can not end successfully from an economical point of view. And even if it would work out, and we could put out that simple 8 channel fader controller with optional joystick .. Support would eventually decline given the low overhead a product like this, on this small a scale, would provide. IF there is an overhead, that is. And there would be yet another non-standard box on our desktop .. that requires yet another USB connection .. and another piece of custom software .. No, let's think big and solve this once and for all.

Thinking big means that the project is no longer doable with a small team btw. So I am on the lookout for the talent and funding to realize this.

Enough words; I have embedded an early prototype design of the modular controller in my Dunshield Superdesk, some pictures attached. The rendition of the controller IS JUST A DRAFT, it serves as an illustration of concept.

What you are seeing is 2 fader modules - 4 long throw faders each, complete with display (YES) - and a CS 80 inspired module. The levers on the latter work just like on a Yamaha CS 80; it is refreshing to control data with levers like this, and they have a musical feel. The colors of the fader caps and buttons are just a random pick, ideally these should be of your own choice.

I am putting together a video of the CONTROLLER STANDARD that I have been working on. It is to be an open standard, anyone can join .. all for free .. so this would be like what the Eurorack standard is for synthesizers, or the 500 series standard for audio processing gear. The standard uses Eurorack rails as horizontal unit, and 5 rackunits as vertical measure. Stay tuned for the details.


Emanuel
/Dunshield

http://www.dunshield.com (www.dunshield.com)


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## brenneisen (Nov 14, 2019)

not feeling those CS faders, they don't travel much do they? 

they'd be useful only for on/off switches if distance/resolution is low


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## DerGeist (Nov 14, 2019)

willbedford said:


> A box with 4 mod wheels and nothing else would be perfect for me. Not really a fan of using faders for dynamics+expression. I've spoken with other composers who feel the same.


Yes, this.


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## Dunshield (Nov 14, 2019)

willbedford said:


> A box with 4 mod wheels and nothing else would be perfect for me. Not really a fan of using faders for dynamics+expression. I've spoken with other composers who feel the same.





DerGeist said:


> Yes, this.




You mean something like the pictures attached?

This sort of stuff should be relatively easy with the modular standard that I'll be proposing - provided that a certain amount of units would need to be produced and sold.

I haven't found a decent Mod wheel part yet. I have the Doepfer part here - forgive me for saying that it is of low build quality. So that would have to be developed as well. Not a problem on its own, but enough of them will have to be produced to make it affordable. Crowdfunding could do the trick.

The build-in depth of a part like this will require the enclosure to be at least 45 mm high, making a desktop box rather bulky - some people took issue with this. None of that is an issue when you flush mount the modules on Eurorack rails - as long as there's enough room under your desktop.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Sep 16, 2020)

@Dunshield did you end up making this?


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## Dunshield (Sep 16, 2020)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> @Dunshield did you end up making this?



Hey there - well believe it or not, it is still in the making. Got postponed due to other projects. I have a big vision with this, a clear goal. It requires $$$$$$$ and I am working on that funding. Next step is to assemble a dream team. The vision is there, fingers crossed this will be realized.


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## whinecellar (Sep 16, 2020)

Dunshield said:


> You mean something like the pictures attached?
> 
> This sort of stuff should be relatively easy with the modular standard that I'll be proposing - provided that a certain amount of units would need to be produced and sold.
> 
> ...



Oh my word - I've been dreaming for AGES that someone would make exactly this, with high quality parts. MAKE IT SO!!!


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## Kent (Sep 16, 2020)

website broken, @Dunshield ?


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## Dunshield (Sep 16, 2020)

kmaster said:


> website broken, @Dunshield ?



Yeah I took it offline to protect the intellectual property and designs etc.


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## colony nofi (Jun 3, 2021)

Any further development?


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## Dunshield (Jun 4, 2021)

colony nofi said:


> Any further development?


Hi there Colony Nofi, thanks for your message.

I have been working on the funding of Dunshield for the past year. And urging to get more hands-on again after 1+ year of growing capital.

One other product is in the works as well.

All of this is in the early stages still, so it will take time .. If you can be patient with me, who knows where this will go.

Cheers everyone


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