# E.T. Flying theme mockup



## victor_nf (Apr 17, 2021)

Hi there, hope you guys are doing ok.

I'd like to share with you my first raw mix of this orchestral mock-up based on the famous John Williams piece that I have transcribed manually from the Hal Leonard edition (04490420). It took me several weekends from Christmas until the present weekend...

It is my largest virtual orchestration ever (about 30 instruments with hardly any layering), so really I'd appreciate a lot to get your feedback as to what can be improved and potentially how - I am an amateur composer and the aim of this exercise is to really learn as much as I can.

Thanking you beforehand for your time!

Keep safe, 
Victor


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## yiph2 (Apr 17, 2021)

victor_nf said:


> Hi there, hope you guys are doing ok.
> 
> I'd like to share with you my first raw mix of this orchestral mock-up based on the famous John Williams piece that I have transcribed manually from the Hal Leonard edition (04490420). It took me several weekends from Christmas until the present weekend...
> 
> ...


Not bad, what libraries are you using? I hear that some instruments arent using the correct articulations (playing shorts instead of legato?), and some instruments sound synthy. I think layering is very important, it makes it sound much better. I actually created one myself here:


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## jaketanner (Apr 17, 2021)

I think it's a good start. Of course the better your libraries, the better the overall sound (once the performance is there). I think what throws this off most is the balance between your instruments. I would reference the original more closely to get where the instruments are placed...and MIDI tends to sound very "clean"...too separated, too pristine...I would use reverb to maybe blend this a bit so that it's not so "perfect"


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## yiph2 (Apr 17, 2021)

jaketanner said:


> I think it's a good start. Of course the better your libraries, the better the overall sound (once the performance is there). I think what throws this off most is the balance between your instruments. I would reference the original more closely to get where the instruments are placed...and MIDI tends to sound very "clean"...too separated, too pristine...I would use reverb to maybe blend this a bit so that it's not so "perfect"


I agree, some instruments can't be heard, balance is one of the most important things about mockups


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## victor_nf (Apr 17, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> what libraries are you using?


Thanks for your time yiph. I think I will prepare a video to explain but I used mainly Spitfire Chamber Strings and Symphonic Brass, then Berlin Woodwind and Cineperc.


yiph2 said:


> I hear that some instruments arent using the correct articulations (playing shorts instead of legato?), and some instruments sound synthy


I would really appreciate if you could tell me specifically which one(s) you feel more uncomfortable with.


yiph2 said:


> I agree, some instruments can't be heard


Well I admit some (piano, woodwind here and there...) are not all the time visible, however not sure that more clarity is always better ? I will take your feedback on board in any case, thank you!


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## victor_nf (Apr 17, 2021)

jaketanner said:


> balance between your instruments. I would reference the original more closely to get where the instruments are placed


Many thanks Jake, I think I take your point. I started using a conduction from JW himself as a reference, however I forgot to check at the end of the process... In fact this is the reason why I use flute in the middle part as he does in his live performance - instead of piccolo as stated in the score (and many other performances).



jaketanner said:


> I would use reverb to maybe blend this a bit so that it's not so "perfect"


Definitely, you touched another weak spot, as I have limited practice with reverbs. Yes, I will give a round of tests blending the stems in that direction. Really fruitful piece of advices Jake, thanks a lot!


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## jaketanner (Apr 17, 2021)

victor_nf said:


> Many thanks Jake, I think I take your point. I started using a conduction from JW himself as a reference, however I forgot to check at the end of the process... In fact this is the reason why I use flute in the middle part as he does in his live performance - instead of piccolo as stated in the score (and many other performances).
> 
> 
> Definitely, you touched another weak spot, as I have limited practice with reverbs. Yes, I will give a round of tests blending the stems in that direction. Really fruitful piece of advices Jake, thanks a lot!


Glad I can help


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## yiph2 (Apr 17, 2021)

As SCS is very small, you need to use the transpose trick to make it sound bigger. Also are you using the performance legato from SSB and SCS? They seem like they are way too short. You could also try to make the woodwinds blend better


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## victor_nf (Apr 17, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> you need to use the transpose trick to make it sound bigger.


Many thanks Yiph, not sure though what is meant here by transpose trick? I essentially sticked to the score... few parts have CSS layered buit only on violin 1.


yiph2 said:


> are you using the performance legato from SSB and SCS


I am using the legato articulation from the general articulation patch. I think you are refering to a dedicated patch that I am not yet comfortable with. If you confirm it would be worthwhile, I will definitely invest some time exploring!



yiph2 said:


> make the woodwinds blend better


Well heard! In this pre-mix, the reverb for the woodwind stem was off.

Big thank you for your tips!


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## yiph2 (Apr 17, 2021)

victor_nf said:


> Many thanks Yiph, not sure though what is meant here by transpose trick? I essentially sticked to the score... few parts have CSS layered buit only on violin 1.
> 
> I am using the legato articulation from the general articulation patch. I think you are refering to a dedicated patch that I am not yet comfortable with. If you confirm it would be worthwhile, I will definitely invest some time exploring!
> 
> ...


You should experiment with different patches for legato and the different amount of players for the brass. SSB does not cut it as the Horns a2 patch is not good, you should use the a6 although it does not say so in the score


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## victor_nf (Apr 17, 2021)

yiph2 said:


> you should use the a6 although it does not say so in the score


I will definitely check this! Thanks Yiph!


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## yiph2 (Apr 17, 2021)

The legatos on SSB are not good except for the a6 patches, but the limitation on those is that they are insanely loud, and can't do soft stuff


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## Ivan M. (Apr 18, 2021)

Congrats on the effort! There are a few things to improve.

The notes here have attacks that are too strong, they are all marcatos: strings, oboes etc. while they shouldn't be. Transitions between notes need to be smooth, use legato patches for the top/prominent lines (for stuff that's in the background you don't have to, as their imperfections are not always audible).
These are the biggest ones. Work on this, and you'll make the biggest progress.

Then the balance between the sections as others mentioned, winds need to be a bit quiter and brass a bit louder. Also try to avoid the ff brass bite/harshness if it's not called for. 

Another thing is the space, some instruments sound a bit in-the-face, while they should be ,,pushed" back into the room and have a sense of space between the listener and the sound. Use some EQ (high shelf) + reverb (with early reflections) to simulate this, or some dedicated plugin.

Hope this helps, 
Cheers


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## victor_nf (Apr 19, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> The notes here have attacks that are too strong, they are all marcatos: strings, oboes etc. while they shouldn't be


Hi Ivan, many thanks for your detailed reply, it is really appreciated. I tried to use legato most of the time, but after your comment I have realized some mistakes here and there. Also my strings library (Spitfire Chamber Strings) has got this strong attack, so definitely something I will work on in the next loop.


Ivan M. said:


> Then the balance between the sections as others mentioned, winds need to be a bit quiter and brass a bit louder. Also try to avoid the ff brass bite/harshness if it's not called for.


Well noted. The brass has been the real thing to me this time. Very difficult for me to get a good sound as necessary and at the same time not standing out in the balance. Wrt to the "brassy" sound of the horns, it was my own flavor layering my old EWQL SO Gold 6 horns patch... your are probably right, if what we want is to mimic the original, let's leave creativity for own compositions then.


Ivan M. said:


> some instruments sound a bit in-the-face, while they should be ,,pushed" back into the room and have a sense of space between the listener and the sound. Use some EQ (high shelf) + reverb (with early reflections) to simulate this, or some dedicated plugin.


As mentioned above, never used before reverbs so you can imagine I am simply doing it by trial/error approach. I guess that the "early reflections" you mention is about short pre-decay times right?

Again, a big thank you for your pieces of advice, they are valuable to me!
Cheers
Victor


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## Ivan M. (Apr 19, 2021)

@victor_nf You're most welcome! Feel free to post updated versions, people here will always help, and me too if I'm around. Also feel free to tag me if I'm not here, I'm not an expert but I belive I can offer at least some usefull advice. Cheers!


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## victor_nf (Apr 22, 2021)

Good morning in Spain, I am attaching a second version of the mock-up. In this one, I have

- Adjusted the tempo track tightly to the version conducted by John Williams (taken as reference for the rest)
- re-balanced the mix, leaving wood in the middle and some reverb, strings naturally distributed and with original room sound, brass carefully mixed (they tend to stand out all the time), and boosting a bit lows (celli, DB, bassons, tuba)
- adjusted a number of lines to legato patches, specially strings. For F Horns, it was really difficult as my 2H legato patchess loose the punch as yiph was saying... so left some stacatto intentionally until I find a realistic alternative
- applied tape saturation and analog emulation to most of stems, all very subtle
- for the final mix, I included Initial Audio Master Suite (I am a beginner for "mastering") as final touch, highlighting bass and treble a bit, not so much compression, analog touch and limiter at -1dB... all very subtle.

Would be great to check whether in your view there is progress or still not kind of acceptable... Many thanks before hand @Ivan M. @yiph2 @jaketanner for any help!

Cheers
Victor


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## Ivan M. (Apr 23, 2021)

@victor_nf 

Oh, it sounds much better now!  Great improvement! Better sense of space, brass is much more pleasant, less marcatos, and those strings are singing!

There is even more to improve. I don't want to discourage you here, just pushing you in the right direction, hopefully (others can jump on me if I say something stupid).

Oboes still sound odd to me, notes don't connect naturally, they really really need a legato patch.

The reverb on winds sounds a bit off, it adds the effect like flutes and oboes have some synth-like release time. Maybe high shelf the reverb a bit to reduce air.

The end sounds a bit distorted, maybe it was hitting a limiter or that saturator too hard. I would also suggest to avoid running it through mastering suites, and rather practice making a good mix on it's own.

And most importantly, something you can't fix immediatelly, but comes with time and practice, is phrasing. Play the dynamics control like an artist. No note is ever flat, especially in dynamics. I usually ease it out on each sustained note. Also a breath controller helps a lot for winds/brass.

But, overall, great improvement


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## victor_nf (Apr 23, 2021)

Hey Ivan, no discouragement at all! I am really grateful to count on your feedback, I just wish I could invite you to have a couple of beers! 🍻

May I ask, what you mean about "high shelf the reverb to reduce air"? 

As for the rest, points well taken, I think it'll be worth it to spend some more time with it. Such an enjoyable piece to work on...

Thanks again Ivan
Cheers
Victor


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## jaketanner (Apr 23, 2021)

victor_nf said:


> Good morning in Spain, I am attaching a second version of the mock-up. In this one, I have
> 
> - Adjusted the tempo track tightly to the version conducted by John Williams (taken as reference for the rest)
> - re-balanced the mix, leaving wood in the middle and some reverb, strings naturally distributed and with original room sound, brass carefully mixed (they tend to stand out all the time), and boosting a bit lows (celli, DB, bassons, tuba)
> ...


I'd say better...yes. However I think it's a mixing issue at this point IF you want it to be closer to the original. Brass is still a tad low and winds should be fuller...strings are a bit overbearing...but better than before...so that's good


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## Ivan M. (Apr 23, 2021)

victor_nf said:


> Hey Ivan, no discouragement at all! I am really grateful to count on your feedback, I just wish I could invite you to have a couple of beers! 🍻
> 
> May I ask, what you mean about "high shelf the reverb to reduce air"?
> 
> ...


You're welcome, this is what the subforum is for, and I'm happy if I can help  I also get an opportunity to play smart :D
I don't know what reverb you're using, sounded like an algorithmic one, they tend to be bright, so I usually to put an EQ on the reverb bus and reduce frequencies above 5k (and bellow 800Hz if I'm doing electronic, approximatelly). Some reverbs have these controls built in.


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## victor_nf (Apr 23, 2021)

jaketanner said:


> I'd say better...yes. However I think it's a mixing issue at this point IF you want it to be closer to the original. Brass is still a tad low and winds should be fuller...strings are a bit overbearing...but better than before...so that's good


Hi Jake, thanks a lot. Yes, I do not expect to reach the original, or any level kind of close to a pro, but definitely take any chance to improve getting closer to the original sound.

I have checked your few "Middle east" tracks in your site, and they sound really stunning, flawless mix and bakance....Congrats Jake. And thanks again for your tips.


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## victor_nf (Apr 23, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> You're welcome, this is what the subforum is for, and I'm happy if I can help  I also get an opportunity to play smart :D
> I don't know what reverb you're using, sounded like an algorithmic one, they tend to be bright, so I usually to put an EQ on the reverb bus and reduce frequencies above 5k (and bellow 800Hz if I'm doing electronic, approximatelly). Some reverbs have these controls built in.


Ok, I get it now I think. Thanks Ivan! Next weekend I'll go for the final attempt!


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## jaketanner (Apr 23, 2021)

victor_nf said:


> Hi Jake, thanks a lot. Yes, I do not expect to reach the original, or any level kind of close to a pro, but definitely take any chance to improve getting closer to the original sound.
> 
> I have checked your few "Middle east" tracks in your site, and they sound really stunning, flawless mix and bakance....Congrats Jake. And thanks again for your tips.


Thank you . Trying out some libraries. Next one is BBC pro mostly.


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## victor_nf (Apr 30, 2021)

Hi there... "final results". I give up for now, otherwise it'll become an obsession 

Hope you guys like it, really many thanks for your pieces of advice! I treasure them!

Cheers and see you around!
Victor


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## victor_nf (May 12, 2021)

Hi there... sorry I bring a "final" mix.... it took me a number of attempts 





I incorporated all comments received up to my own limits - i am far from being pro.

In some domestic speakers I get a little distortion in the last strong passages of the cue, do you think this is someting to get corrected or it just natural stuff?

Thanks a lot for your help already @jaketanner @Ivan M. and stay safe!
Victor


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## jaketanner (May 12, 2021)

victor_nf said:


> Hi there... sorry I bring a "final" mix.... it took me a number of attempts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Victor...I think you've gone as far as you can go based off your experience. I mean it will never be like the real thing no matter how hard you try anyway...I think some of the balances are still off and too separated/clean sounding, but there is no sense in beating a dead horse...I think continuing to work on this will be counterproductive...don't lose sight of your end goal here...is it to sound realistic like the original, or are you trying to show off your programming chops, or did you do this as a learning experience for orchestration? Each comes with a set of critiques. I think if you are happy with it, then leave it and move on to something else before this consumes your life.. LOL

The best piece of advice I can offer at this point if you are still looking for that "perfection", is to simply keep A/B'ing yours to the original. So you would import the original into a track on top of your MIDI mockup. Group all MIDI tracks together...then use the solo button to toggle between the two in real time. You would need to be in solo cancel mode within your DAW...where one solo cancels the other, rather than they both stay on. Put small sections on a loop, and go back and forth this way so that you can make small changes. Think of it as you're painting a picture from a photo...you look at the photo side by side with your painting (if you are going for realism)...same thing here.

Best of luck.


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## victor_nf (May 12, 2021)

jaketanner said:


> Hey Victor...I think you've gone as far as you can go based off your experience. I mean it will never be like the real thing no matter how hard you try anyway...I think some of the balances are still off and too separated/clean sounding, but there is no sense in beating a dead horse...I think continuing to work on this will be counterproductive...don't lose sight of your end goal here...is it to sound realistic like the original, or are you trying to show off your programming chops, or did you do this as a learning experience for orchestration? Each comes with a set of critiques. I think if you are happy with it, then leave it and move on to something else before this consumes your life.. LOL
> 
> The best piece of advice I can offer at this point if you are still looking for that "perfection", is to simply keep A/B'ing yours to the original. So you would import the original into a track on top of your MIDI mockup. Group all MIDI tracks together...then use the solo button to toggle between the two in real time. You would need to be in solo cancel mode within your DAW...where one solo cancels the other, rather than they both stay on. Put small sections on a loop, and go back and forth this way so that you can make small changes. Think of it as you're painting a picture from a photo...you look at the photo side by side with your painting (if you are going for realism)...same thing here.
> 
> Best of luck.


Thanks a lot Jake! Yes, it was a learning and mimicing type of experience, and definitely I'm bringing it to an end, otherwise these cadences of chords will influence my compositions for life (lol). This one was my reference track - tempo track tightly adjusted.

​

What you say in the second parragraph is essentially what I did - after finding this option in cubase, key for this purpose. I just feared to overwhelm the mix with reverbs... I opted eventually for the natural VST room mic + hall reverb ad hoc for each stem. Subtly for sure, as I was risking the definition of key instruments. I guess this balance will get better overtime, or not. But I will try.

As said, I owe you a beer or two.
Cheers
Victor

PS By the way no mention to the little "domestic speakers" distortion at the end of the track, good signal I guess.


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## jaketanner (May 12, 2021)

victor_nf said:


> Thanks a lot Jake! Yes, it was a learning and mimicing type of experience, and definitely I'm bringing it to an end, otherwise these cadences of chords will influence my compositions for life (lol). This one was my reference track - tempo track tightly adjusted.
> 
> ​
> 
> ...



Glad to help. For next time...do not use a live track as your reference unless you are referencing it for a very specific reason. Reference the original OST...this will be more to how the world has come to recognize the music. Many things in the live performances will be off from the original..and a mock up will almost NEVER ever sound live...(even though it was live in the studio)...a truly live performance should not even be attempted to be mocked up...LOL Anyway...try importing the original OST into your session and then try the a/b again. Just for your own reference and learning...then reference the OST against the live performance...also for your learning experience.


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## victor_nf (May 12, 2021)

jaketanner said:


> Glad to help. For next time...do not use a live track as your reference unless you are referencing it for a very specific reason. Reference the original OST...this will be more to how the world has come to recognize the music. Many things in the live performances will be off from the original..and a mock up will almost NEVER ever sound live...(even though it was live in the studio)...a truly live performance should not even be attempted to be mocked up...LOL Anyway...try importing the original OST into your session and then try the a/b again. Just for your own reference and learning...then reference the OST against the live performance...also for your learning experience.


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## Ivan M. (May 12, 2021)

victor_nf said:


> Hi there... sorry I bring a "final" mix.... it took me a number of attempts
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really love how you did those strings! They sing! 
And it's balanced much better now, definitelly.

I won't go into what I would do differently anymore. As Jake said, leave it at that. The more you work on something, the less you hear. Our perception gets adjusted to the sound, and we simply can't hear it properly anymore. Listen to it after a month or two, and see what you notice then 

There are a lot of notes in this one, so it takes extra effort to do right. Why not pick something with less instruments, so that you can focus more on individual ones? A bit hypocritical advice from my side, as I mock up what I like, not what's simple haha. If we're gonna mock up these monstrosities of scores we might as well enjoy it :D


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## victor_nf (May 13, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> I really love how you did those strings! They sing!
> And it's balanced much better now, definitelly.
> 
> I won't go into what I would do differently anymore. As Jake said, leave it at that. The more you work on something, the less you hear. Our perception gets adjusted to the sound, and we simply can't hear it properly anymore. Listen to it after a month or two, and see what you notice then
> ...


Many thanks for your empathy dude! Yes, the boys and I had a terrific time scoring that small lightened-finger monster  if on top of lots of fun, I also can take on board some learning... awesome then!

Let's move on. 
Thanks a lot Ivan
Victor


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## victor_nf (May 20, 2021)

Final result... many thanks to @jaketanner and @Ivan M. for your help. I am getting positive feedback from everywhere, and this is to a large extent due to your constructive challenge. I know there was still a large room for improvement, and I leave this for the next complex mock-up. Again thank you guys.


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