# Action scores - what makes them good or bad?



## noiseboyuk (Jul 17, 2010)

Should preface all this as just my personal opinion of course, and just because I don't like an element of a score from a brilliant composer doesn't mean I feel I'm remotely on the same level as them, let alone better than them! Just an honest reaction that makes me want to better understand the craft.

So. Just finished watching Avatar again. My personal view is that James Horner is a legend, and has composed some of the best scores of all time. However, IMHO, most of Avatar is good, but not exceptional. But it was the prolonged action sequence in the last 40 minutes or so that really got me thinking.

Honestly, I didn't like the music in the climactic battle, and I see a lot of films like this. I remember thinking exactly the same thing years ago in Cameron's True Lies (composed by Brad Fidel who did amazing work on the Terminator films) - it's very common in blockbusters. It seems relentless - the orchestra playing its collective heart out, hitting 120db which must sound amazing in the scoring stage, but it sounds strange to my ears in the film cos it's placed low in the mix to let the sound effects have impact. There's something inherently wrong with an orchestra (or band) playing very loud when it actually ends up sounding so quiet. It ends up just annoying me.

By contrast, I think of the original Star Wars, and the lengthy attack on the Death Star (I'm sure we all know it note for note!) The music - and lack of it - has always struck me even when very young as outstanding. There's a very long stretch with no score at all. Then an X wing hits the deck, and boom - it comes in with a grand, tragic fanfare. Then Williams works his magic for the rest of the scene, but it has so much light and shade, it really helps tell the story of the battle. It also seems more prominent in the mix. Just think how iconic both the score and the sound design is in Star Wars - yet there never seemed any competition in tòð÷   Ü¿ÿð÷   ÜÀ ð÷   ÜÀð÷   ÜÀð÷   ÜÀð÷   ÜÀð÷   ÜÀð÷   ÜÀð÷   ÜÀð÷   ÜÀð÷   ÜÀ	ð÷   ÜÀ
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## RiffWraith (Jul 17, 2010)

Interesting topic.

Music - whether it be for action, romance, or whatever - is there to compliment and help the scene - not _make_ the scene. Tho ironically, music can in fact make or break a scene, or sequence - or even an entire film. When it comes to action music, it depends what's going on visually and audio-wise. If there is a alot going on - say space fighters zooming around with alot of chatter, explosions, laser fire, whooshes, etc, then the music should be sparse, IMHO. But of course, most directors don't see it that way. "Just write wall to wall music - see, we have these things...they are called_ faders_...we can actually dip the volume of the music a little - but only if we need to." :roll: 

If there is a car chase in a deserted part of the country, and the camera is pulled way back, and all you hear are the engines of the two cars way off in the distance, then a lack of music can be rather disconcerting. 

I agree with your SW/William's comments. "Then Williams works his magic for the rest of the scene, but it has so much light and shade, it really helps tell the story of the battle." - and to think that was back when he was still in the beginning stages of his career! :twisted: 

Interesting you mention Horner. The mention of him, along with the subject, calls on me to post something I posted in the SO forum earlier today, which was in response to another forum member's post about Horner's 'Aliens'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-8D6j5L ... re=related

Probably the most in depth and detailed explanation by a composer on "how to score" I have seen to date, specifically fro 2:02 to 5:00 where he talks about the themes, motifs, and how the music and picture come together. Anyone interested in scoring for picture should really watch this.

Cheers.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 17, 2010)

Yeah, saw that interview with Horner - fantastic. And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAciDfxBN7U

...regarding his nightmare experience on Aliens. Funnily enough, I've always thought there was a distinct similarity between the climactic Aliens cue where Ripley blows the queen out of the airlock (written in literally hours under extreme pressure, then used in countless trailers) and Williams' cue leading up to the destruction of the Death Star in ep IV!

[Tangent - don't forget though that Williams was already a pretty well established composer by 1977 - he'd been scoring movies for well over a decade]

One more comment on mixing - I know some dubbing mixers HATE to move the faders on music, pushing and pulling sections, and I do understand why - if you can hear the sound of the music going up and down, it's totally unnatural and a world of difference between the orchestra playing loudly / quietly. For me that's part of the skill though - changing the levels without anyone noticing is the key. But often, depending on the cue, it doesn't work well at all.


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## Narval (Jul 18, 2010)

To answer your question: the film.

/\~O


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 18, 2010)

Narval @ Sun Jul 18 said:


> To answer your question: the film.
> 
> /\~O



Does that mean a composer can literally just bash anything if the film is great and it will work?!

Hmm...


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## choc0thrax (Jul 18, 2010)

Action scores usually suck... well the action parts do. They just blast away repetitively. It's utilitarian. I always skip over any tracks titled "The Battle" etc. and head right for ones titled "Reunion" or "Farewell" or the always reliable "Death and Transfiguration".

I was watching Aliens today around lunchtime which is weird because I mostly watch that movie at night...mostly. Anyways... while I was sitting there unable to stop analyzing it since it's basically a masterpiece from back when Cameron was actually a genius and I took note of the lack of music during the last fight scene between Ripley and that crabby alien queen. That was a nice lack of music there. I love that score. Easily the best of the Alien series with Goldenthal coming in second. That last shot of Ripley and Newt asleep when the music comes in is so pretty and so I turned up the volume only to be blasted back into reality by a retarded football ad and the sound of explosions. Lesson learned: don't watch movies on Spike TV. Oh and while I'm on the topic: Alien 3 sucks.

Maybe I should give Horner's Avatar a listen sometime. I heard it briefly last year but it's a chore to listen to a composer who just doesn't care anymore and who goes through the motions for a paycheck. Horner was once pretty awesome.


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## lux (Jul 18, 2010)

I think it changed a lot in most recent years. Actually there's a very limited scheme for action sequences. 

I was recently watchin Solomon Kane, and the very first 4-5 mins i almost had a headache at how lazy that action scene sounded to me, same one chord boring hits and staccato strings i hear on everything. I have to admit the music gets muuuch better during the whole movie (i'm often positively surprised by Badelt on that matter). But those 5 mins of opening sequences are the exact reason why recent action music is what it is. At least thats my feeling of it.

Probably my favourite guy when it comes to action music is David Arnold, which i feel keeps a nice musicality within a good pathos. ID4 is one of my favourite examples for that. Goldenthal and Don Davis being another two pretty nice guys for the scope.

i would say > alien 3 suck. Alien 4 was unwatchable, it was like "Delicatessen" with a fuckin monster on it. I loved Delicatessen but...

Agree, Aliens is out of Cameron's best period, fantastic movie.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 18, 2010)

lux @ Sun Jul 18 said:


> I think it changed a lot in most recent years. Actually there's a very limited scheme for action sequences.



Yeah, think you're right. Lord of the Rings felt like a sea change, a move to huge ethnic percussion which works brilliantly in that trilogy, but is perhaps not so suited to other films. We've all got SD2, True Strike 2, Tonehammer, Cinesamples stuff etc, but it's pretty recent that this style of percussion as been dominant, it seems to me. Listening to the older John Williams or Alan Silvestri scores, the percussion was just standard orchestral fare. Musically it felt far more complex than most modern scores as well... I was gobsmacked listening to some of the Back to the Future stuff recently, some sections were so far out of my compositional abilities it isn't true! Yet alongside that really complex stuff he also wrote fantastic memorable themes and simple motifs, a brilliant combination. Sounds absolutely fantastic.

I do find myself pining for that slightly earlier style in big blockbusters now. I think it sounds more exciting and is more involving... because it more melodic than percussive perhaps, it helps tell a story within an action scene better. FAR harder to write though.

Incidentally, one movie that had a slightly older vibe in the score recently was Powell's How To Train Your Dragon. Loved that movie and score, felt part of a more classic era.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 18, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Sun Jul 18 said:


> Interesting you mention Horner. The mention of him, along with the subject, calls on me to post something I posted in the SO forum earlier today, which was in response to another forum member's post about Horner's 'Aliens'.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-8D6...eature=related
> 
> Probably the most in depth and detailed explanation by a composer on "how to score" I have seen to date, specifically fro 2:02 to 5:00 where he talks about the themes, motifs, and how the music and picture come together. Anyone interested in scoring for picture should really watch this.



Riff, this link does not work here, any hints?


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## RiffWraith (Jul 18, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Sun Jul 18 said:


> RiffWraith @ Sun Jul 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting you mention Horner. The mention of him, along with the subject, calls on me to post something I posted in the SO forum earlier today, which was in response to another forum member's post about Horner's 'Aliens'.
> ...



Oops - my bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-8D6j5L ... re=related


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## Narval (Jul 18, 2010)

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## choc0thrax (Jul 18, 2010)

Speaking of Horner I think he's done some pretty good music for The Horsemen.

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/travel/ ... tique.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o78bETmrUVY

It's pretty nice despite the cue starting off sounding like a Star Wars film that just went to credits.


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## dp_audio (Jul 18, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Jul 18 said:


> We've all got SD2, True Strike 2, Tonehammer, Cinesamples stuff etc, but it's pretty recent that this style of percussion as been dominant, it seems to me. Listening to the older John Williams or Alan Silvestri scores, the percussion was just standard orchestral fare. Musically it felt far more complex than most modern scores as well... I was gobsmacked listening to some of the Back to the Future stuff recently, some sections were so far out of my compositional abilities it isn't true! Yet alongside that really complex stuff he also wrote fantastic memorable themes and simple motifs, a brilliant combination. Sounds absolutely fantastic.



This made me smile very big, as Back to the Future is my favorite score, and I couldn't agree more!


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 19, 2010)

I do like to hear the score on the louder side in sequences that are more action and less dialogue. Done right, I have no problem with the music being just as loud as the SFX. Silence is extremely important to use effectively, but I wouldn't agree that in a busy sequence with lots of SFX that the music needs to be sparse. If anything, there are times where I'd rather have the SFX be a bit more sparse and let the music carry things.

And I totally agree about missing real old school orchestral scoring. The percussion stuff can be great, but it has become a cliché and makes so much stuff sound the same. Back in the day, you'd hear great action cues without much percussion, even great action cues with just strings.

And love the BTTF scores, even his cowboy stuff in the third one is cool.


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## Narval (Jul 19, 2010)

Percussive sounds call for attention, they are here, present, in your face, almost visual, so to speak. In action scenes, sfx are part of what happens onscreen and they are percussive. That's why I find percussion-driven scoring in such sequences ineffective, interfering, intrusive, even when they are not plainly competing with the sfx. The score is supposed to address a different, psychological reality, not the onscreen action-reality. If I am to feel "danger" when watching a chase scene, percussion is the worst instrument choice to my ears. Suddenly everything sounds like MTV to me, so the adrenaline level drops. The voice speaking to my inner feelings needs not to use short hits in rhythmical patters. That's for dancing. If I am to feel "danger," a well designed harmonic texture of low strings and medium brass (or vice versa) does it best for me.

Otoh, cymbal swells and timpani rolls are two exceptions. Probably because they don't really sound like percussion but more like doublebass tremolos and fast violins gliss./runs. Soft mallets hits work well too sometimes.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 19, 2010)

Agree with all that, Mike. It's crossing threads, but loved the mix of Inception - the music is deafening in places, and it should be - but it never conflicts with anything else.


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