# < $10k baby grand pianos: Thoughts?



## Andrew Aversa (Nov 9, 2018)

We're considering a piano in the house, a baby grand footprint as opposed to upright. There are some interesting used ones around our area like Baldwin model M and L, as well as Yamaha G1. Or perhaps a Yamaha/Roland digital grand...?

Anyone have thoughts on pianos in this price range?


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## chillbot (Nov 9, 2018)

Used is your friend. I know space is an issue but please please get the biggest one you can, it makes such a difference. I originally was looking at 'true' baby grand pianos in the 4' to 5' range because I thought it was all that would fit and all that I could afford in that price range. But after playing 20 or 30 of them I knew I'd never be happy. Ended up getting a used Yamaha C3 circa 1984 that I think is 6' 1" and I love it to death. And it really isn't all that much more space.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 9, 2018)

Yeah, absolutely looking at used stuff. Doesn't make sense to buy new IMO especially given that a lot of these brands have seemingly sold off to Chinese/Korean companies.


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## sostenuto (Nov 9, 2018)

Mason & Hamlin A anywhere near you ? That was my 'baby' ....... but years with Grotrian-Steinweg Concert poisoned the well ..... _in many amazing ways _

Always a time for 'tinkly' .... and you must have a specific need.


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## Bernard Duc (Nov 9, 2018)

Try them, that's really the only way to know! Different pianos of the same model can have a very different sound and feeling. Also, when buying used the condition will end up having a much bigger importance than the model. 

That being said I played on (very well prepared) Yamaha G1 that were fantastic pianos.


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## sostenuto (Nov 9, 2018)

Sooooo true !! I auditioned Kawai grands at a large dealer in Las Vegas. Kawai had a small team there doing tech training and they worked hours every evening _ for a week _ on a specific new Concert grand. It was magical to A/B it and then another new grand. 

It would be cool to experience a test of many 'unknowing' pianists and listen to their A/B impressions. 
Surely, similar would be true of Yamaha, et al.


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## wst3 (Nov 10, 2018)

There was a Yamaha C series 6' grand in the living room when we first toured the house. Gotta say, it makes an impression, and it does take up a fair bit of space.

I've always had a fondness for the Yamaha pianos. But I've played smaller (not quite baby) grand pianos from Kawai, Baldwin, and some company from Queens/Astoria. Probably others too.

Thing is, I'm a guitarist who dabbles with piano - if the current piano residing here hadn't been here I'm not sure we'd have one now, especially as things played out. But I am thrilled that it is here, and I grin ear to ear as each kid plays with it. It would be cool if they got serious, but just as cool if they don't.

As mentioned, I am not a serious pianist, so there are likely things I miss, but I like the feel of a grand piano, any brand really. And I like the sound of a grand piano (and yes, for the sound size does matter<G>!)

You said house, but did not mention if this was for the living room, the studio, or both. For the living room I can't imagine any respected brand would be a mistake, especially on the used market. For the studio you (obviously) would need to be a bit pickier.

My piano lives on the first floor, in the living room. There are tie-lines to the basement where I can record it if I choose. Oddly enough, I do not do that often.

Two more thoughts - I have no plans to sell, but I was surprised at how the value is slowly climbing for this instrument. (I was doing some insurance homework.) And do not underestimate the maintenance requirements. While Judi was sick all that stuff went by the wayside, now I am paying the price. Just plan for it and you'll be fine.

Good luck in your search!


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## danbo (Nov 10, 2018)

Baby grands are known as PSO's - Piano Shaped Objects, excepting perhaps a few like the Mason sostenuto mentioned above (probably not though, you can't win against physics). They're made for the piano furniture market rather than the serious pianist. If you actually want to play it you would do far better with a quality upright, and for less money. Look up Charles Walter uprights to see some excellent ones for a decent price.

If you want a grand action (a short one at least, of course the actions of the concert pianos are longer) then move from a baby up just a foot or two to a 5' 9", like again the Charles Walter W175. Designed by the legendary Del Fandrich these pianos are treats. I have the W190 (6' 4") which is the standard 'serious' home piano, but the W175 is truly designed as a home/chamber piano. The hammers are more 'resilient' and softer - like a 1800's forte-piano. The 190 I have has a bit more traditional hammers for a modern projecting concert kind of tone, but it's a perfect piano to live with at that. Renner actions, Kluge keys, all hard old growth maple and spruce, these are serious pianos.

Play around with some templates, you might be surprised at what you can fit. People regularly put grands in tiny NY studio apartments, the size is more psychological than actual.

*Edit: OK the real grands are out of your price range - missed that. Get a quality upright like a Walter or Yamaha Studio, way more bang for your buck. *


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## emasters (Nov 10, 2018)

Hey Andrew, I spent a year looking at used and new pianos - similar situation, with limited space in the living room. Would have really liked a Yamaha C7, but alas, budget and space didn't fly. Found a clearance Kawai baby grand with a good sounding bass register (for some reason, sounds fuller than the other baby grands I played - sound board? wood case? instrument resonance?). It does vary between pianos, so you need to spend some time playing many different models, finding what you like. After purchasing, I spent a month with a piano tech regulating it to my preferred sound (essentially treating the dampers, multiple times to refine the sound). I went for a brighter sound, which made a significant improvement in the overall sound. Very happy with it, but it does take some time and effort to find what you like.


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## EvilDragon (Nov 10, 2018)

I'm a fan of Kawais and Bösendorfers, personally.  Bösendorfer is very european and probably hard to come by in the US (not to mention $$$), but I definitely recommend checking out Kawais. And yes, it's a good advice to go with the largest possible upright instead of a baby grand. Why? Because the large upright WILL sound better in most cases than a baby grand, because it will have longer strings, hence less inharmonicity (and this you will notice especially in the lower register of the piano) - and take up less space. Yamaha U3 is a good one to check out, too.

https://www.markgoodwinpianos.co.uk/info/baby-grand-vs-upright-piano


If you really don't wanna go for an upright, absolutely don't go below 6' grand either. I haven't heard or played a baby grand that I liked sound-wise, no matter what the brand.


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## PaulBrimstone (Nov 10, 2018)

In my experience, baby grands mostly sound like toy pianos, or cheaper uprights. Look for a “proper” size at a good used price. Then throw away the furniture to make it fit. Who needs sofas, anyway?
This from someone who is afraid of his wife and settled for a good upright, dammit, and a sofa.


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## agarner32 (Nov 10, 2018)

If you're patient you can get a killer deal on a grand. Obviously you're going to get dozens of opinions because instruments are so personal. I'm a pro pianist and I've had many pianos over the last several decades. I would stay away from consumer level pianos like the lower lines from Yamaha, Kawai etc. You mentioned the Yamaha G1 - in my opinion they are terrible. When you start doing research and playing a lot of pianos, your ears will become educated.

You should be able to find a Yamaha C series in your price range. They are great if you like the Yamaha sound. I had a C5 and replaced the hammers which made it much warmer. If you upped your price a bit you might even find a C7 for around 14k if you are patient. I have seen them for that low because people either don't know the value or need the cash immediately.

I have a Mason and Hamlin BB at the moment which I bought new a few years ago. That piano is way out of your range, but the smaller ones might be close to your range if you're patient.

Lastly, if you can talk to a piano technician and if you buy used, pay them to assess the instrument. You don't want a piano that has something wrong with the soundboard that can't be fixed.

Here are two great resources to help in your decision:

Piano Buyer's Guide

Piano World Forum - it's a great community to ask questions or to search through years of piano topics.

Good luck,
Aaron


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## agarner32 (Nov 10, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> And yes, it's a good advice to go with the largest possible upright instead of a baby grand. Why? Because the large upright WILL sound better in most cases than a baby grand, because it will have longer strings, hence less inharmonicity (and this you will notice especially in the lower register of the piano) - and take up less space.



That certainly is one opinion. Although I'd much rather play on 7 - 9 ft. grands, I would take a great "Baby Grand" over an upright any day. The length of strings is only one factor in determining the sound of a piano. There are hundreds of things that make a piano sound unique - design, hammers, soundboard, materials, scaling etc. Also you can't replicate the horizontal action on an upright action and to me that is a deal breaker. An upright will never feel like a grand to a pianist. There are some great uprights out there that's for sure, but I'd go for a something around a 5'-8" over an upright any day. I've played some Mason and Hamlin Model As that are incredible. I played on a smaller Ritmuller (5'-7") that wasn't half bad. I've done gigs on Yamaha C2s and when tuned and regulated are pretty decent. I'd take a C2 over a U series any day just for feel alone.

Aaron


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 10, 2018)

I am unfortunately not a serious pianist. Many years of piano lessons, got to the harder romantic era stuff (Liszt etc) but have not practiced seriously in well over a decade. Switching to composition, production, and development took all that time away! While I can tell the difference between a crummy piano and a great one, I'll admit that at a piano sale today I found the sound of a 5'3 baby grand quite nice. And I grew up playing a 4'11 15/16 scale for 11+ years...

That being said, as we now have a little one in the house (4 months old) our plan is to start off with a high end Clavinova. If our daughter takes lessons and is interested in more seriously pursuing it, or if I do get back into practicing & playing regularly, we can always sell it and upgrade later.

With that being said, curious to hear thoughts on brands like Sohmer, Baldwin, Young Chang, Hobart M. Cable, Chickering?


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## sostenuto (Nov 10, 2018)

zircon_st said:


> I am unfortunately not a serious pianist. Many years of piano lessons, got to the harder romantic era stuff (Liszt etc) but have not practiced seriously in well over a decade. Switching to composition, production, and development took all that time away! While I can tell the difference between a crummy piano and a great one, I'll admit that at a piano sale today I found the sound of a 5'3 baby grand quite nice. And I grew up playing a 4'11 15/16 scale for 11+ years...
> 
> That being said, as we now have a little one in the house (4 months old) our plan is to start off with a high end Clavinova. If our daughter takes lessons and is interested in more seriously pursuing it, or if I do get back into practicing & playing regularly, we can always sell it and upgrade later.
> 
> With that being said, curious to hear thoughts on brands like Sohmer, Baldwin, Young Chang, Hobart M. Cable, Chickering?



My bad for not paying attention to your location ..... BUT ..... I am in high desert climate which is dry, hot, and fairly stable over huge portion of each year. Few periods in Summer when local monsoon season hits and everything turns to shite .... 

My tech is top Las Vegas dude, swamped by UNLV, Hotels, Casinos, top pro players. Almost 2hrs drive away, _but his Mom live nearby _.....
Please pay attention to _YOUR _ potential regulation /tuning needs and factor into this decision. This cost can be a very serious consideration.

OTH ..... after decades of training and play, NOTHING has been even close to sensory interaction with Grotrian Concert (_1950's with ivory key surfaces_). After a year or so, and hours of amazing technician artistry, it is an indescribable experience to sit down and interact. (playing is a tiny subset).

( last professional help was long ago with Howard Brubeck ) I am long-time admirer of brother Dave, and play from his printed books even now )

Homage to brothers Brubeck !


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## tmhuud (Nov 10, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> And yes, it's a good advice to go with the largest possible upright instead of a baby grand.



Absolutely. And another thumbs up for KAWAI.


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## agarner32 (Nov 10, 2018)

zircon_st said:


> That being said, as we now have a little one in the house (4 months old) our plan is to start off with a high end Clavinova.


I'm a bit confused. The title of your post is "10K baby grand pianos: Thoughts"? So you want to know about pianos in the 10k range, but you're plan is to purchase a digital piano? Sorry if I am missing something.

At any rate, there certainly are pianos in the 5'-3" range that sound very good.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 11, 2018)

Yes, in the short term we're going with a digital piano. If I get back into playing, if my daughter is interested (etc) then in the long term I'm still interested in a baby grand.


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## EvilDragon (Nov 11, 2018)

Clavinovas to me personally have a bit heavier actions than what I personally like. Probably not good for learning. I would check out something that has Roland's PHA-50 action which is absolutely blissful to play - triple sensor and all that jazz. Something like their LX or HP series, perhaps LX-17, or the most recently released Kiyola. But LX-17 does look more impressive than a Kiyola.


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## agarner32 (Nov 11, 2018)

Play as many as you can - you'll know which one does it for you. I have a college issued Clavinova in my office and think it's fine. It's one of the higher end models. Keep in mind there are many levels in the Clavinova series. I wouldn't say the actions are a hinderance to learning because of being heavy. Many young students learn on full grands with a much heavier action. Also, Clavinovas are probably the most widely used digital pianos in college classrooms for a reason.

The Rolands also are nice, but I liked the acoustic piano patches better overall. I tested just about every major digital piano made when we purchased about 25 of them for practice rooms. There a tons of factors to consider so be patient. Everyone will have their favorite but in the end you are the one who will be playing it.

Good luck.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 11, 2018)

We ended up getting a 665GP for now. After spending some time playing with it I find it has good enough action for someone to learn on, and it does sound quite nice.


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## agarner32 (Nov 11, 2018)

Congratulations - great choice.


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## Knomes (Nov 11, 2018)

It is also worth checking the Yamaha AvantGrand N1. It has the same mechanics of a grand piano and the sampling is very good to my ears.


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## agarner32 (Nov 11, 2018)

Knomes said:


> It is also worth checking the Yamaha AvantGrand N1.


I tested one for about an hour when I was recommending pianos for our practice rooms. They are indeed very nice. Even though they do have a real piano action, it still isn't quite the same because they aren't hitting real strings. I thought they were still pretty nice and as you said the sampling is nice to my ears as well. Keep in mind that just like a real piano, the action needs to be worked on like an acoustic piano - regulated etc. At that price we decided to go with acoustic uprights for just a bit more.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 11, 2018)

That was my thinking as well. I did try some higher end digitals but I figure at that point we should just keep saving for something much nicer eventually.


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