# Trombone Ensemble from Berlin Brass - need help !



## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 20, 2022)

I just bought the Trombone Ensemble-patch from Berlin Brass.

Now I'm trying to program "The Imperial Suite" from Rogue One with it.

Here's a screenshot so you can see which articulations play where:






And this is what it sounds like:

1) Berlin Brass alone
View attachment 01 - Rogue One - The Imperial Suite - hbj3-norm.mp3


2) Berlin Brass on top of original audio
View attachment 02 - Rogue One - The Imperial Suite - hbj3-01-norm.mp3


To those of you who are experienced with Berlin Brass:

- Does this sound ok? I mean: Is the line passable?

- Is some other way of programming / use of the articulations better?

The MIDI is attached if you want to give it a go.

Hope you guys can help me getting started with these Trombones


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 20, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I just bought the Trombone Ensemble-patch from Berlin Brass.
> 
> Now I'm trying to program "The Imperial Suite" from Rogue One with it.
> 
> ...


Sounds good already! With Berlin Brass you have lots of ways of programming a line, that's one of the strengths of this library. Sometimes a Marcato Long released quickly will sound better than a Marcato Short, for instance. Or a Fortepiano will work better than a Marcato Short or Accented Sus. Repetition patches are a bit tricky to get right, but can be super useful as well.

Will try tomorrow


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## MarcMahler89 (Nov 20, 2022)

Aw, ive been kinda obsessed with this kind of stuff concerning the OT Brass ( not only berlin brass, but also MA brass patches ...)

Resulting, ive been frustrated at times that, for example, the ADSR of a marcato long articulation is exactly what i need, but the, hypothetical, marcato short articulation has the right amount of "bite" / fff feel for the recorded note. This differs a LOT for the different round robins as well in the OT libs, so at times it might also help to disable certain RRs. Listening closely to each RR is a really valuable thing to do here 

I even doubled a bones track just for a single note with all but one RR disabled at times, as they differ so much.

If theres no RR which fits for your needs, i guess layering a spicc/stacc art with a marc would be the next best solution

Hope this might help you out 

Concerning your particular example: Id personally love a crispier attack in the 0:03 - 0:04 part , the rest is arguably perfect


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 20, 2022)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Sounds good already! With Berlin Brass you have lots of ways of programming a line, that's one of the strengths of this library. Sometimes a Marcato Long released quickly will sound better than a Marcato Short, for instance. Or a Fortepiano will work better than a Marcato Short or Accented Sus. Repetition patches are a bit tricky to get right, but can be super useful as well.
> 
> Will try tomorrow


Thanks, sounds good  Thanks for listening and commenting too! Based on what you say here I will keep an open mind to using the various articulations. It's more fun to program lines IMO when there's more stuff to choose from, but of course also time-consuming.

Sounds great you're gonna give it a try too, looking forward to hearing it!


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## Marcus Millfield (Nov 20, 2022)

Sounds great already Henrik! If I may make some suggestions based on what I just heard on the original:

The high point in the dynamics of this little motif is on the highest note and the one that follows, both have the loudest attack and sustain. In your example, this is almost the softest note.

The second note in your example has a very apparent accent, unlike the original which has almost no accent at all. I get that you'd be tempted to play this little theme Maestoso (stately, like a grand entrance), but that's not achieved by accents in the recording, but more by the composition and unisono of horns and trombones (if my ears are not mistaking).

The triplet in the original is a lot faster and tighter than in your example. I'm no fan of quantizing, but I do thing quantizing the triplet in this case won't hurt. Also, the triplet is played a lot softer in the original than all other notes.

And to be REALLY nitpick (and I do mean really!):
To achieve a triplet at this speed, a brass player would multitongue the triplet. This means the second note would not be articulated with the tongue, but with the throat. This would slightly alter the timbre of that note. Maybe you could mimic that. Don't know Berlin libraries, so can't help you how to...

Hope it helps you a bit and if you think I've gone too far in my nitpicking, please ignore  I would be very interested in your progress. It's a great piece of music to try and mock up!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 21, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Sounds great already Henrik! If I may make some suggestions based on what I just heard on the original:
> 
> (...)
> 
> Hope it helps you a bit and if you think I've gone too far in my nitpicking, please ignore


Thank you 

No, it is absolutely perfect with the tips and specific suggestions! I was hoping to get feedback like in this thread so far. I'd really like to become good at using Berlin Brass (I have the Bass Trombone too and will buy the other ensemble patches + the Tuba later on)

I'll look into it and post again!

@MarcMahler89 I have not forgotten you and will reply, but I was going to be "tactical" and reply in some hours thereby getting another bump to the thread instead of two right in a row, hehe! I so appreciate your help


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 21, 2022)

@Henrik B. Jensen : Here is a quick test I just did 
I did record from scratch without using your MIDI as I thought it would be a good test.

Some "interesting" points, related to my first post :
- The two first notes (G#2 and F2) are connected with legato, but using Marcato articulations in Capsule (I'm using the Kontakt version)
- The triplet on C3 is using a Repetition articulation, but for some reason the "Triplets" articulation didn't work so great. Here I'm using the 16th articulation, but with the patch tempo set to 1T so it plays in triplets. When doing Repetitions I always do this, browse through the 4 available patches (16th Phrase, 16th Continuos, Triplets Phrase, Triplets Continuous) and pick the best one
- Using a Fortepiano on the G3, to my ears it sounded better than the Marcatos when comparing to the original audio.

ORTF + Tree Mics. Probably still not perfect at all !


View attachment The Imperial Suite Emmanuel Test2.mp3


Edit : v2 with some adjustements

View attachment The Imperial Suite Emmanuel Test3.mp3


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## shawnsingh (Nov 21, 2022)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> - The triplet on C3 is using a Repetition articulation, but for some reason the "Triplets" articulation didn't work so great. Here I'm using the 16th articulation, but with the patch tempo set to 1T so it plays in triplets. When doing Repetitions I always do this, browse through the 4 available patches (16th Phrase, 16th Continuos, Triplets Phrase, Triplets Continuous) and pick the best one



This repetition sounds great, but for OP, definitely also try staccato short for those 3 C notes. Actually also try it anywhere that there are more notes to follow, even if it is a long note afterwards. I remember distinctly in the original Berlin brass video, they said they sampled tongue stopped release for the staccatissimo, exactly so that it can work as a double or triple tongued sound. For the Kontakt version I had definitely found this to be true, I assume that is what staccato short is. That should sound much better than the regular staccato, where release samples blur over the next note - that breaks the realism very quickly.

I'd also suggest more experimentation with more variation in note velocity for the short notes. I've found this to be true for shorts from nearly any library, which makes me believe it's a real property of how players perform.

Lastly, if I remember correctly, it is possible to tweak CC arcs and note release timing to get more (intended and controlled) variations out of the marcato articulations. It doesn't really feel like you need them here, but it's another point for experimentation.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 21, 2022)

I'm toggling articulations on and off in the Trombone Ensemble from Berlin Brass to try and find the magic combination that will make it sound right. Then I load up the ensemble Trombone patch from Cinebrass Core, copy/paste all the notes onto that instrument's track and immediately get this:
View attachment Rogue One - The Imperial Suite - hbj16-norm.mp3


With no adjustments whatsoever.
That's not so bad sounding, is it??

I'm wondering if I'm wasting my time with Berlin Brass and I should just stay with Cinebrass.


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## shawnsingh (Nov 21, 2022)

This Cinebrass version sounds like a substantially different mic mix (far less room, slightly more phasey), making it hard to compare. I certainly like the mic mix and room tone you got from the Berlin Brass version. I also don't feel like the quality of articulation performance is much better... I'm getting more confident (in my own humble opinion) that really all you needed to do differently was try substituting staccato for staccato short, and the BB version would be really great.

From your original example here's what I imagine would work. Bold/italic are the ones I think would be different. Sorry I'm not able to try it out myself at the moment:

(with the articulation preceding the note)
<marcato short> A-flat,
<staccato> F, 
*<staccato short> A-flat* 
<marcato> C
*<staccato short> C. C. C. *
_*<staccato or staccato short, try both> Dflat Aflat.*_
<accent attack> G
<staccato short> Eflat Enatural Eflat 
<marcato> Dflat

Some additional notes:
- the C C C triple tongue should have note velocities that ramp into the Dflat that should be slightly more accented note velocity (i.e. 120 perhaps). The first C of the triple tongue could potentially have slightly higher note velocity than the second one, for a bouncy rhythmic feel.
- the C C C triplet might need to be programmed slightly faster in MIDI. Not sure if it's lagging just because of the articulation or also because of the MIDI timing
- the Enatural, if I understand, is also on a down (or 3rd) beat, probably deserves a slight accent as well. "accent" here just means in the MIDI performance, not necessarily that it has to be glaringly accented musically. I think a performer would naturally put a subconscious emphasis on it, though.

- Another thing to experiment with, if I remember correctly, marcato short layered over a sustain is a great way to create a sculpted character emphasis attack while having an arbitrarily longer note. A good complement to marcato long.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 21, 2022)

This excerpt sounds more like French Horns in their low register, maybe with some trombones backing them up, but here is an attempt using BB Bones a3. 

Below is a version using the articulations and CC data shown below. I de-synced the SINE tempo and doubled it to get the triplet repetitions to sit as desired. Only used tree mic as my focus was on the phrasing more than the mic mix.

Imperial Suite Berlin Trombones a3:
View attachment Imperial Suite BB Bones a3.mp3


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 21, 2022)

MarcMahler89 said:


> Aw, ive been kinda obsessed with this kind of stuff concerning the OT Brass ( not only berlin brass, but also MA brass patches ...)
> 
> Resulting, ive been frustrated at times that, for example, the ADSR of a marcato long articulation is exactly what i need, but the, hypothetical, marcato short articulation has the right amount of "bite" / fff feel for the recorded note. This differs a LOT for the different round robins as well in the OT libs, so at times it might also help to disable certain RRs. Listening closely to each RR is a really valuable thing to do here
> 
> ...


Thanks for listening and commenting! For detail-nerds, developers could let i.e. CC40 decide which Round Robin should be played. If CC40 = 0, it should just work as it does today.

I also noticed there is a difference between the various RRs here.

The piece has changed quite a bit since you commented - I'm not even sure it's better though!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 21, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Sounds great already Henrik! If I may make some suggestions based on what I just heard on the original:
> 
> The high point in the dynamics of this little motif is on the highest note and the one that follows, both have the loudest attack and sustain. In your example, this is almost the softest note.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this! In the last version of the piece (see here), I try to take what you say above into account - that the highest note and the one that follows are the loudest dynamics-wise. Also the beginning of the piece is played more evenly / without accents as you suggested.

The triplets should be faster and tighter now. I changed the tempo to be fixed instead of trying to follow the original recording 1-to-1. Then I can add variation in tempo later on to mimic the original recording that way. It's just easier for me in terms of inputting notes at the right rhythmic points when the tempo is fixed. I forgot to make the triplets play a lot softer than all other notes though, I think. I'll look at that 

I don't know SINE well enough to know if I can slightly alter the timbre of a note (in order to simulate it's articulated with the throat instead of the tongue, as you explained)

Thank you for showing interest in following my progress, that's very kind of you! It definitely is a good piece of music to try and mock up. It sounds great too!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 21, 2022)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> @Henrik B. Jensen : Here is a quick test I just did
> I did record from scratch without using your MIDI as I thought it would be a good test.
> 
> Some "interesting" points, related to my first post :
> ...


This is helpful, thanks  I think you're right that the two first notes should be connected with legato, I did read this post of yours earlier but completely forgot about this again so I don't use legato in the latest version from tonight. I'll add it!

That stuff about setting the tempo of a patch to 1T...I don't know SINE, so I need to look into that.

Fortepiano on G3: In the original recording the G3 is pretty aggressive sounding, but Fortepiano sounds soft. So I'm not sure it's a good match for G3.

Thanks for making the examples also


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 21, 2022)

@Emmanuel Rousseau I added legato on the first two notes now.

It's starting to sound ok this piece, I think!
View attachment Rogue One - The Imperial Suite - hbj12-norm.mp3


Edit: It's nowhere near as "brassy" as the original though. But when I try to make it more brassy at the climax point, it also sounds louder - much louder than the rest of the notes.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 21, 2022)

shawnsingh said:


> This Cinebrass version sounds like a substantially different mic mix (far less room, slightly more phasey), making it hard to compare. I certainly like the mic mix and room tone you got from the Berlin Brass version. I also don't feel like the quality of articulation performance is much better... I'm getting more confident (in my own humble opinion) that really all you needed to do differently was try substituting staccato for staccato short, and the BB version would be really great.
> 
> From your original example here's what I imagine would work. Bold/italic are the ones I think would be different. Sorry I'm not able to try it out myself at the moment:
> 
> ...


I must admit that after listening more closely, Berlin Brass has much more room depth in the recording than there is present in Cinebrass. That sounds really good! The whole Berlin-series sounds superb; I'm lucky I've been able to afford BWW Revive & Soloists as well as a few patches from Percussion and Brass.

Thanks for writing so specific advice with articulations - the part where you write stuff in bold to illustrate your point. That made it easy to understand what you meant and to try and work towards it in Cubase. In the C C C triple tongue I've attempted to make their note velocities ramp into the Dflat, and I set the first C a little higher velocity than the second one.

Tempo in the original piece was a mess so I re-did it completely. That means the C C C triplet should sound faster and tighter now.

I forgot to make the Enatural have a slight accent. I'll check up on it tomorrow.

When layering a Marcato Short over a Sustain, should I adjust the volume of the two articulations down each by -2 dB or something like that? 'Cause two notes playing at the same time increases volume, right?

Thanks again! Superb info & tips


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 21, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> This excerpt sounds more like French Horns in their low register, maybe with some trombones backing them up, but here is an attempt using BB Bones a3.
> 
> Below is a version using the articulations and CC data shown below. I de-synced the SINE tempo and doubled it to get the triplet repetitions to sit as desired. Only used tree mic as my focus was on the phrasing more than the mic mix.
> 
> ...


It could very well be FH in low register, possibly with Trombones backing it them up  I am not so good at hearing what plays when. And thanks for the example! Looking at the helpful suggestions from people in this thread, this example of yours takes it into account too, just as I've tried to do myself with the latest version I've posted. I can hear it clearly in your version of the piece.

What you mention about de-syncing SINE tempo to make triplet repetitions to sit as desired is not something I understand as I've never looked much into how SINE works  I just know the basics hehe!


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 22, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Fortepiano on G3: In the original recording the G3 is pretty aggressive sounding, but Fortepiano sounds soft. So I'm not sure it's a good match for G3.


Yes, you are right about this. Fortepiano is probably not the best choice for this note.



Henrik B. Jensen said:


> It's starting to sound ok this piece, I think!
> your_browser_is_not_able_to_play_this_audio
> 
> Edit: It's nowhere near as "brassy" as the original though. But when I try to make it more brassy at the climax point, it also sounds louder - much louder than the rest of the notes.


This one sounds great ! I think the "brassiness" is just fine  With brass libraries it is always tempting to reach for a lot of power, but it often doesn't sound very natural in context with the other instruments. In my exemple most notes are around 80 to 100 in velocity. It's probably a bit less than what you are using and I agree it could be a bit more, but not much... On a side note, my exemple is also lower in volume, but I'm using the Kontakt version. It looks like they changed the gain in the SINE version.
Anyway, have fun with Berlin Brass ! It is a wonderful library. Once you start adding the individual players etc, it is amazing.


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## Marcus Millfield (Nov 22, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> @Emmanuel Rousseau I added legato on the first two notes now.
> 
> It's starting to sound ok this piece, I think!
> View attachment Rogue One - The Imperial Suite - hbj12-norm.mp3
> ...


Sounds a lot closer to the original in this attempt, except the triplets are timed too early. The original leaves a 1/8th rest before the triplet. You are like 1/16th too early which makes the whole motif sound too rushed.

The comment from @Trash Panda about the horns is accurate I think. It's not that apparent the first time the motif is played, but the second time, the horn timbre is definately more pronounced as they play a higher register and there is a distinct articulated glissando (or rip) from the horns to heared. The horn timbre is far more distinct in the upper register. Good catch @Trash Panda !

I do want to "warn" you: it's probably tempting to just copy/paste the motif to later parts/other instruments, but there are subtle (and not so) subtle differences each time.


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## MarcMahler89 (Nov 22, 2022)

I think the recent version is actually decent enough  


> Edit: It's nowhere near as "brassy" as the original though. But when I try to make it more brassy at the climax point, it also sounds louder - much louder than the rest of the notes.


Trombones played at FFF are LOUD 
What about just handling this with a compressor? Or manually adjusting CC11 for the articulation which sticks out too much?


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## Trash Panda (Nov 22, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> What you mention about de-syncing SINE tempo to make triplet repetitions to sit as desired is not something I understand as I've never looked much into how SINE works  I just know the basics hehe!


Next to the tuning fork at the top, to the right of the SINE logo, there is the tempo setting, which is normally synced to the DAW. Since the triplets were about half the speed of what was needed, I unlocked the tempo by clicking the icon, then put the tempo in at 184 instead of 92.

This alters the timing of tempo-locked articulations like repetitions so they can be at the speed you want them. Since it's a naturally sampled triple-tongued repetition, it sits in more naturally than trying to sequence the same effect with staccatos and staccatissimos.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 22, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Next to the tuning fork at the top, to the right of the SINE logo, there is the tempo setting, which is normally synced to the DAW. Since the triplets were about half the speed of what was needed, I unlocked the tempo by clicking the icon, then put the tempo in at 184 instead of 92.
> 
> This alters the timing of tempo-locked articulations like repetitions so they can be at the speed you want them. Since it's a naturally sampled triple-tongued repetition, it sits in more naturally than trying to sequence the same effect with staccatos and staccatissimos.


That's an amazing feature! I'll try that out


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 22, 2022)

So much easier to do in Kontakt, I'm wondering why they haven't implemented this yet in SINE.


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