# Warning, stay away from Waves



## synthetic

I knew about Waves WUP, an annual plan to keep up to date. But what I didn't realize is that they delete and ransom your old plug-ins when you buy a new one. I have a few Waves plug-ins that I used from time to time. I saw they had a sale on the SSL plug-ins, two for $50, sure why not.

When I installed them, it uninstalled all of my other Waves plug-ins. Because it updated Waveshell to version whatever, my plug-ins aren't compatible with that waveshell, so they all went bye bye. Now I need to pay $120 if I want to see my old plug-ins again. I actually think they have the sale to trap you like this, so you have to re-purchase all of your old plug-ins again. And there's no way to go back to the old version from what I can tell. 

What a scummy company. Run far away from Waves.


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## robgb

synthetic said:


> What a scummy company. Run far away from Waves.


Hmm. Since you paid for the old versions, it seems to me they are obligated to make them work. Have you spoken to anyone at the company about this? This strikes me as fraudulent business practice, so you might want to contact a government consumer advocate.

Looks to me like you can get them back:

https://www.waves.com/support/missing-plugins-after-installation


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## midi-et-quart

Did you contact their customer support?


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## rrichard63

If you take a few minutes to understand how their download manager/installer works, you can avoid this problem.

https://www.waves.com/1lib/pdf/central/waves-central.pdf

The only major obstacle I can think of is that you might end up with two Waves accounts under two different email addresses. Updating the plugins in one account might well delete everything in the other account. That said, I'm not fond of Waves's approach to installation and license control. Basically, you have double check that all your licenses are activated before installing/updating any of them. I put up with this and the WaveShell format (which defeats a few VST hosts) because I like and use a lot of their products.


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## Gerhard Westphalen

I really hope that this was just a hitch and not intentional behavior but thanks for the heads up.


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## MisteR

You know I had something similar happen a few years back. It uninstalled everything and I thought I would have to pay but when I contacted them it just turned out I needed to reinstall everything through the new installer...or something like that. Can't remember what the solve was exactly but I would double-check. Hope this is the case for you as well if you haven't already double-checked.


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## Quasar

One $9 sale plugin, a couple of minutes with an overly-domineering Waves Central and the subsequent complete uninstallation (rather than either go online or have a USB flash drive connected whenever I used the plug) is my only experience with a Waves product. The Waves experiment lasted less than 15 minutes, and didn't even involve actually trying the plug.


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## Daniel James

You can't just lock people out of things they have purchased and demand more money. It doesn't even matter if its in their terms and conditions. Contact the trade commission of where you live.

-DJ


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## chrisphan

Out of curiosity, what are some of your oldest plug-ins that are not working anymore?


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## Anders Wall

synthetic said:


> What a scummy company. Run far away from Waves.


I’m sure your licenses will be in your account.
You can find old installers here, under Legacy.
https://www.waves.com/downloads

Best of luck and please do update here if you manage to or not to resolve this.

/Anders


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## MA-Simon

Ah, that explains were those eq plugins went when I changed to another computer. 
I remember there was a wave sale arround that time and I got some single Signature Series plugins. 
Will have to check this eventually. Dang.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

I have a bunch of Waves plugins, have changed 3 machines since 2012 and re-installed Windows 7 / 10 several times in this timeframe, and never once had to re-buy anything.


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## fixxer49

synthetic said:


> And there's no way to go back to the old version from what I can tell.


you are mistaken



Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I have a bunch of Waves plugins, have changed 3 machines since 2012 and re-installed Windows 7 / 10 several times in this timeframe, and never once had to re-buy anything.


same here


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## tmhuud

Ditto...


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## jules

I recently reinstalled my whole bunch of waves plug ins without paying a cent, and many of them are out of wup, so you'd better contact their support to clear this out.


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## Shad0wLandsUK

Click-bait title. Since it appears that the OP is not 100% sure this is the case...

My experience:
I have been buying Waves plugins for more than 4 years now, since I got the Gold Bundle.
I have bought many more single plugins, upgraded to bundles and continue to do so.
Along with wiping my machines multiple times, installing on macOS and Windows... with plugins out of WUP!

So more investigation into this is certainly needed 

Perhaps an amendment of the title also.


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## dgburns

Lemme clear up something here-

I was holding off updating my rig to Sierra because I was SURE Waves needing 'wuppin' update to get me there. It turns out I was wrong.

IF you own V9 waves, you CAN update to the latest V9.x without WUP. But you have to update using Waves Central. Also what you DON'T get is all the new plugins for your purchased bundle that came out from the time your WUP expired.

So if you own Gold bundle and have version 9.1, you can open up Waves Central and update to V9.9 and carry on like before.

What you WON'T be able to do is update from V9 to V10 if your wup is expired. Not sure about Waveshell and individual plugs, but it seems to me that you should just go ahead and update using Waves Central first and then see it the issue persists.

my two cents


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## chrisphan

Has anyone tried to install Waves products recently? Waves Central keeps showing me an error the past 2 days, even though it worked on the same machine 2 weeks ago. Not sure if it's related to my account, or their system.


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## Shad0wLandsUK

chrisphan said:


> Has anyone tried to install Waves products recently? Waves Central keeps showing me an error the past 2 days, even though it worked on the same machine 2 weeks ago. Not sure if it's related to my account, or their system.


I have had the exact same thing.
Had to download the offline installer and run from there for now.

As I purchased Codex yesterday and could not download it.

https://www.waves.com/support/error-during-product-installation-using-waves-central

That Kb should help


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## rrichard63

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> https://www.waves.com/support/error-during-product-installation-using-waves-central


Thanks for this link. That's a lot of hoops to jump through just to install an update. They done something to Waves Central that they need to undo. Unless, that is, they want to lose customers.


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## String-for-sale

Waves Central is sometimes a mess for me, and sometimes works flawlessly. Other than that, the only WUP I had to pay over the years was 14$ to get the upgrade to Waves Elements V2. Everything else is working with current version.


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## Shad0wLandsUK

String-for-sale said:


> Waves Central is sometimes a mess for me, and sometimes works flawlessly. Other than that, the only WUP I had to pay over the years was 14$ to get the upgrade to Waves Elements V2. Everything else is working with current version.


I have not fallen into the WUP lane once yet, though there are some things that come with the Gold bundle now that I do not have

But I purchased Codex on the current offer, and Waves got me last week with BSS DPR-402 as well..
They get me a lot ugh


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## chrisphan

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> I have had the exact same thing.
> Had to download the offline installer and run from there for now.
> 
> As I purchased Codex yesterday and could not download it.
> 
> https://www.waves.com/support/error-during-product-installation-using-waves-central
> 
> That Kb should help


That must be something on their side then. Did you create an offline installer the way the link says? I tried it but still got an error


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## rrichard63

chrisphan said:


> ... Did you create an offline installer the way the link says? I tried it but still got an error.


In that situation, you might have to uninstall all of your Waves plugins and reinstall from scratch. Waves support staff once sent me detailed instructions on this -- it turns out that uninstalling in either Waves Central or Windows Control Panel can leave things behind that get in the way of a successful reinstallation. Anyone who decides to follow this path can PM me and I'll find the instructions. If I recall, they are Windows-specific.


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## chrisphan

I can install my products now! That's probably a temporary system down time


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## String-for-sale

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> I have not fallen into the WUP lane once yet, though there are some things that come with the Gold bundle now that I do not have
> 
> But I purchased Codex on the current offer, and Waves got me last week with BSS DPR-402 as well..
> They get me a lot ugh


I think most people are not aware that when you pay WUP, Waves send you a voucher for the same amount that can be used on another purchase. So, the only 14$ I ever paid for WUP allowed me to upgrade to Elements 2 and to get a discount on another product. Not so bad.


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## Shad0wLandsUK

String-for-sale said:


> I think most people are not aware that when you pay WUP, Waves send you a voucher for the same amount that can be used on another purchase. So, the only 14$ I ever paid for WUP allowed me to upgrade to Elements 2 and to get a discount on another product. Not so bad.


Yes I was not aware of this, makes me want to WUP every year now 

Weird as that may sound


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## germancomponist

Waves know very well that a lot of people use cracked plugins from their company. I bet that's why. Very clever, what they are doing!


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## Shad0wLandsUK

germancomponist said:


> Waves know very well that a lot of people use cracked plugins from their company. I bet that's why. Very clever, what they are doing!


Yes, I shall confess that at some point in the past I was one of those people.
Little did I know I could get so many industry standard plug-ins for such a good value ALL the time


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## PaulieDC

Hmmm... I have Horizon plus additional plugins (SSL, etc) on my main tower and Diamond plus additional on my laptop, all under the same account, and have used Waves for 4 years. I've done some upgrades in the past (and got the vouchers and used them), but also held off on several upgrades for stuff I now don't use. When v10 came out which is a major upgrade, I did WUP for those things on a few separate plugins, but also used a bunch to just get up to Horizon so all that would be in v10. I haven't lost anything, my older v9 are still there and usable if i want, which I usually don't. Nothing is lost.

I don't mean this to be a "hey, what are you doing wrong" reply, but I will defend Waves that they are not a scummy company looking to rip people off and therefore requiring us to seek out a trade commission, like was said at the start of the thread. They are trying to survive in a very proprietary market that doesn't exactly catch the attention of most households in the world, like food and cleaning product companies do. TBH I didn't read every reply so maybe this reply is a day late and a dollar short... if so my apologies.


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## SoNowWhat?

I’ve not had a problem yet with not WUPing and all my plugs work fine. I have several at v9.x and newer ones on v10.x
I’m sure this is due to good luck more than good management as I’ve read of some difficult experiences. I would expect contacting support should resolve the problems relatively quickly.


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## chrisphan

Can somebody give a definitive guide on how I can install new v10 plug-ins while keeping my old v9 plugs? I'm planning to take advantage of Waves current sale, but I also want to avoid potential headache. Thanks!


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## bryla

The Waves Central asks you when installing new plug-ins whether you want to upgrade your v9's. If you haven't WUP'ed then just tell it not to. Worked for me yesterday.


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## S.M Hassani

bryla said:


> The Waves Central asks you when installing new plug-ins whether you want to upgrade your v9's. If you haven't WUP'ed then just tell it not to. Worked for me yesterday.



Recently did the same to install the Abbey Road Collection. You can run V9 and V10 plugins together, unless it's the same product.

I chose to upgrade to the full collection instead of buying the new Abbey Road Chambers. (was cheaper BTW) Then I installed Chambers as a V10 plugin, leaving the others as they are in V9 form.

Hope this helps.

S.M


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## martinjuenke

I abandoned all Waves plugins because of these intransparent pricing strategies. And after I did that I discovered other developers with a far more customer friendly approach and higher quality plugins (Waves stuff seem imo often quite outdated...).


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## Josh Richman

martinjuenke said:


> I abandoned all Waves plugins because of these intransparent pricing strategies. And after I did that I discovered other developers with a far more customer friendly approach and higher quality plugins (Waves stuff seem imo often quite outdated...).


I’m almost to that point too.


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## Akarin

martinjuenke said:


> I abandoned all Waves plugins because of these intransparent pricing strategies. And after I did that I discovered other developers with a far more customer friendly approach and higher quality plugins (Waves stuff seem imo often quite outdated...).



I would but haven't found alternatives to the OneKnob series and the Maxxbass one.


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## bryla

Akarin said:


> I would but haven't found alternatives to the OneKnob series and the Maxxbass one.


Plug&Mix Perhaps?


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## Divico

Sorry for gravedigging but I have to relieve my anger. Just installed two freebies from black friday actions. To do so I had to install the central than manually download the old installer and locate it in the new one since my update plan for the earlier freebie expired. For 1 plugin I had to download almost 4 GB. Thats not a good way to handle things....


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## MikeHunt

Divico said:


> Sorry for gravedigging but I have to relieve my anger. ..


 More like trash diging pigface but whatever, your right, Waves has gotten tricky after realising they are the krack heaven like Photoshop...there are multiple scandals on their part, they fake focusrite, cheasy aximizer and lack of keeping up with AUD plugs which run on hardware like pro tools but blow waves out of the water..., you think they would alllow plugs to reach kids for free because bug rooms still pay for waves, a tax right off for them but no, waves wants to be like Avid and Digidesign..a joke


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## ProfoundSilence

I only bought a few plugins for v10 and realized I was too deep. I don't think I even managed to get all my plugins working from previous because some were v10, and installing both was so buggy that I gave up and made my peace with the other v10 plugins. 

I honestly only use 2-3 waves plugins - so it's really quite lucky on my part. I think I've considered investigating the voucher situation - but i'd want to know the stipulations. 

Does the WUP update 100% come with the voucher for the price of the update?? and can that be used on items that are already on sale?


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## chocobitz825

My current Waves Horror Story:

I already hated the upgrade requirements, since if you own a lot of plugins, you're paying hundreds of dollars to update them.....

Anyway, I knew I was going to regret this, but I ended up buying into their pay-to-own subscription plan, and for some reason received a notice last month that my payment failed and they would try 5 more times over the next five days, and if it did not complete payment, my subscription would be automatically canceled. I checked my card, and every other payment on that card was fine, and there was no reason for why it failed with waves. I literally paid for other services within in that 5 day period. Still, there is no option within waves' webpage to confirm payment or reattempt payment, you just have to wait. So it gets to the 5th day, and I receive an email that my subscription was canceled, and if I wanted to, I could buy it again and contact them to have my previous paid amount applied to the new one. Since I knew I was going to regret dealing with waves and it had only been three months, I thought "f$ck waves; I want nothing to do with them"...

Fast forward three days, and I notice my credit card is charged for another month of the subscription. I email support to find out why I'm still paying for a subscription they said was canceled.

Their reply:
_"Hi,
Thanks for letting us know. You can disregard our last email.
Looks like your renewal payment went through successfully today and the license is Active in your account again.
Let us know if you’ll need any further assistance.
Best regards,"_

So now I'm just...back on the plan? No explanation, no nothing. So then I start loading up my daw, and now suddenly all of my 10.0 Waveshells are failing, and are getting blacklisted by my DAW. Coincidence? I don't know, because I emailed Waves about it, and they still have not responded. So I'm paying for a subscription that was canceled and "reinstated" mysteriously, but that is now inaccessible to me because my wave shells are seemingly no longer valid no matter how many times I try to reinstall/reactivate.

f$ck you waves

I regret ever getting involved with you.


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## MartinH.

I still can't believe that drm is "worth it" when they a) pay for it directly to the drm service, and b) pay for it indirectly with people warning others to stay away from them. If they didn't do this shit I can almost guarantuee I would have picked up something from them over the years, but instead I wouldn't even want their free stuff on my system.




ProfoundSilence said:


> I honestly only use 2-3 waves plugins - so it's really quite lucky on my part.



Can't you replace those with plugins from other manufacturers that have less dumb drm and update schemes?


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## MikeHunt

chocobitz825 said:


> My current Waves Horror Story:
> 
> I already hated the upgrade requirements, since if you own a lot of plugins, you're paying hundreds of dollars to update them.....
> 
> Anyway, I knew I was going to regret this, but I ended up buying into their pay-to-own subscription plan, and for some reason received a notice last month that my payment failed and they would try 5 more times over the next five days, and if it did not complete payment, my subscription would be automatically canceled. I checked my card, and every other payment on that card was fine, and there was no reason for why it failed with waves. I literally paid for other services within in that 5 day period. Still, there is no option within waves' webpage to confirm payment or reattempt payment, you just have to wait. So it gets to the 5th day, and I receive an email that my subscription was canceled, and if I wanted to, I could buy it again and contact them to have my previous paid amount applied to the new one. Since I knew I was going to regret dealing with waves and it had only been three months, I thought "f$ck waves; I want nothing to do with them"...
> 
> Fast forward three days, and I notice my credit card is charged for another month of the subscription. I email support to find out why I'm still paying for a subscription they said was canceled.
> 
> Their reply:
> _"Hi,
> Thanks for letting us know. You can disregard our last email.
> Looks like your renewal payment went through successfully today and the license is Active in your account again.
> Let us know if you’ll need any further assistance.
> Best regards,"_
> 
> So now I'm just...back on the plan? No explanation, no nothing. So then I start loading up my daw, and now suddenly all of my 10.0 Waveshells are failing, and are getting blacklisted by my DAW. Coincidence? I don't know, because I emailed Waves about it, and they still have not responded. So I'm paying for a subscription that was canceled and "reinstated" mysteriously, but that is now inaccessible to me because my wave shells are seemingly no longer valid no matter how many times I try to reinstall/reactivate.
> 
> f$ck you waves
> 
> I regret ever getting involved with you.


no Vaseline and all too!


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## chocobitz825

MikeHunt said:


> no Vaseline and all too!


they should be paying me for how they're violating me. they won't get another dime. Canceled my subscription. I have more than enough equivalent options from other developers that give me fewer headaches. Well, at least most of them bring the vaseline at least..


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## ProfoundSilence

MartinH. said:


> I still can't believe that drm is "worth it" when they a) pay for it directly to the drm service, and b) pay for it indirectly with people warning others to stay away from them. If they didn't do this shit I can almost guarantuee I would have picked up something from them over the years, but instead I wouldn't even want their free stuff on my system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't you replace those with plugins from other manufacturers that have less dumb drm and update schemes?



I use LoAir(I like what it does more than the alternatives) And I like NLS (more than the alternatives) 

I also like S1 because it's simply useful and clean. This is the one most likely to be replaced. If fabfilter created a stereo tool it would like 99% replace it. However as it stands - S1 stereo has multiple useful stereo image controls visually laid out - and in 1 resource friendly place. 

Occassionally I like Kramer tape - but basically everything else is kind of fluff. Sometimes OneKnob plugins when I'm really lazy - but generally speaking if I never touched again those I'd probably never notice it. 

I use a handful of reverbs - and Fabfilter Tools.


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## MartinH.

ProfoundSilence said:


> I also like S1 because it's simply useful and clean. This is the one most likely to be replaced. If fabfilter created a stereo tool it would like 99% replace it. However as it stands - S1 stereo has multiple useful stereo image controls visually laid out - and in 1 resource friendly place.



Not quite the same, but this would be worth a try: 





Auburn Sounds - Panagement, free reverb audio plug-in







www.auburnsounds.com





I use v1 on almost every project. Haven't updated to v2 yet.


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## MikeHunt

Not sure what type of music yawl do but i certainly would like to know which waves you trust using, the UAD plugs seem to sound better, FabFilter EQs are great, Modley Delay is a goto for dub electronic and reggae type beats, anything, the eventide stuff on IOS is also very good, as good as the OSX stuff...i appreciate you sharing info abut the plugs you use and why., thanx


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## ProfoundSilence

MartinH. said:


> Not quite the same, but this would be worth a try:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Auburn Sounds - Panagement, free reverb audio plug-in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.auburnsounds.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I use v1 on almost every project. Haven't updated to v2 yet.



I have panagement, but it's not even remotely the same. I don't think it's a good idea to use panagement on anything except mono sources - and I use S1 to adjust the stereo properties of stereo sources. Panagement is more like a psychoacoustic binaural panner. 

S1 for instance, I can narrow a tree mic, or widen it. Or I can simply shift the entire signal to the left or right. Or I can adjust the left/right levels, and adjust the panning of the left and right channels. 

Typically speaking - I only really play with orchestral samples these days, hence only a need for the fabfilter stuff + a few choice reverbs + some stereo tools. Aside from that, it's just different forms of harmonic distortion/vibey stuff generally to color a signal.


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## bill5

chocobitz825 said:


> they should be paying me for how they're violating me. they won't get another dime. Canceled my subscription.


Any software which includes the word "subscription" has me not walking, but running in the other direction. I will never get why anyone would want to keep paying over and over for software (unless it's a try-it-for-cheap monthly thing). It's an app, not a house. 

Never used Waves anything but hear very mixed opinions. That also has me thinking I'm fine with what I have.


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## chocobitz825

bill5 said:


> Any software which includes the word "subscription" has me not walking, but running in the other direction. I will never get why anyone would want to keep paying over and over for software (unless it's a try-it-for-cheap monthly thing). It's an app, not a house.
> 
> Never used Waves anything but hear very mixed opinions. That also has me thinking I'm fine with what I have.



I've had no problems with standard subscription models that are not pay-to-own. To call it a subscription is dishonest anyway. What waves have is a payment plan. one that becomes automatically canceled when their system screws up. Even worse it's far more expensive than a subscription. You pay for it all, or you walk away with none of it. I knew it was a dumb idea, but oh well. Lesson learned. I have little to worry about because the Plugin Alliance subscription covers all the stuff I want from waves anyways.


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## wst3

There are a handful of Waves plugins that I still use, and I really like them. I have not yet found replacements for them. These are primarily sound design type tools, and if I had to I suppose I could get by without them (said with a huge dramatic flair<G>!)

And I too have had debates with Waves Support. If you own the license for an older plugin they are on the hook to support it, and you. They can try any trick they like to persuade you to stay current, but that's all it is, a trick.

Which is a shame, because WUP in and of itself is not such a bad idea. Way back (When these plugins were much more expensive, and updated regularly) it made good sense if you were using them regularly. Now, with the constant sales I'm not sure. In fact I am pretty sure it would make more sense to purchase during a sale, and disregard WUP entirely.

But the concept of annual support is nothing new, and in many ways it makes more sense than any other plan for recurring revenue for both Waves and us. They just have to find the balance between price and benefit.

I've been using Waves since it was first ported to native processing - it was even called the Native Power Pack (I & II) and it used (I kid you not) the parallel port for the dongle, and if you had multiple licenses you needed multiple dongles! They did fix that, eventually.

They were, at the time, absolute cutting edge. They still have some fantastic tools, especially in the sound design realm.

Their conventional processors are really good too, but I hesitate to commit to them since I have others that get me there or nearly there without the hassles. I am not impressed with their emulations, but the C series compressors and Q series equalizers remain at the top of their class.

Too bad they are still struggling to find a way to support the business.


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## vitocorleone123

ProfoundSilence said:


> I use LoAir(I like what it does more than the alternatives) And I like NLS (more than the alternatives)
> 
> I also like S1 because it's simply useful and clean. This is the one most likely to be replaced. If fabfilter created a stereo tool it would like 99% replace it. However as it stands - S1 stereo has multiple useful stereo image controls visually laid out - and in 1 resource friendly place.
> 
> Occassionally I like Kramer tape - but basically everything else is kind of fluff. Sometimes OneKnob plugins when I'm really lazy - but generally speaking if I never touched again those I'd probably never notice it.
> 
> I use a handful of reverbs - and Fabfilter Tools.



Bass Enhancement vs. Subsonic Generators
https://www.denise.io/blog/2018/12/...nutes-with-pro-mixing-tips-and-audio-examples

A Loair replacement would be Refuse Software Lowender.


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## MikeHunt

bill5 said:


> Any software which includes the word "subscription" has me not walking, but running in the other direction.


 Same here! although its a good idea as an option


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## MikeHunt

vitocorleone123 said:


> Bass Enhancement vs. Subsonic Generators
> https://www.denise.io/blog/2018/12/...nutes-with-pro-mixing-tips-and-audio-examples
> 
> A Loair replacement would be Refuse Software Lowender.


no one here likes or tried bass or vocal ryder?


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## Josh Richman

vitocorleone123 said:


> Bass Enhancement vs. Subsonic Generators
> https://www.denise.io/blog/2018/12/...nutes-with-pro-mixing-tips-and-audio-examples
> 
> A Loair replacement would be Refuse Software Lowender.




This is really also the only plugin that keeps me with waves. I hate them though. I have lowender. It’s great but not the same exactly. They are the same type of process but their effects sound slightly different.


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## MartinH.

ProfoundSilence said:


> I have panagement, but it's not even remotely the same. I don't think it's a good idea to use panagement on anything except mono sources - and I use S1 to adjust the stereo properties of stereo sources. Panagement is more like a psychoacoustic binaural panner.
> 
> S1 for instance, I can narrow a tree mic, or widen it.



I'm not claiming it to be the same, but I use panagement all the time to widen or narrow stereo mics. I never use it as a binaural panner. If I recall correctly, the free ozone Imager can do that as well. The proper ozone imager can do it with multiple bands if needed, but you probably know that already. 

For the other things that you mention (panning individual stereo channels etc.) I think there are (clunky) alternatives in reaper.




Josh Richman said:


> This is really also the only plugin that keeps me with waves. I hate them though. I have lowender. It’s great but not the same exactly. They are the same type of process but their effects sound slightly different.



I don't have any real need for that, but my ghetto DIY method for that is using a send effect with a pitch shifter in reaper and using lowpass filters before and after.


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## Reid Rosefelt

I simply don't understand why I should accept the idea of WUP when every other plugin I buy does not have that limitation. Sure all my plugins still work (with a lot of hassle) but a Windows update could change that in a minute. 

They sell ALL of them (ultimately) for $29 or less, but say that the actual price is reduced from $69 or $99 or $199 or $599 or whatever. This seems ridiculous until you want to sell one of them and can't do it without losing money.

I am not an engineer. I can get everything I need to mix from companies like Fabfilter, Sonible, iZotope, IK Multimedia, Eventide, Soundtoys, Melda, NI, Melodyne, etc. 

Somehow I will find a way to live my life without being able to mix my recordings exactly the way they would sound at Abbey Road. I say this fully understanding that this means my music won't sound like The Beatles.


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## ceemusic

TigerTheFrog said:


> I simply don't understand why I should accept the idea of WUP when every other plugin I buy does not have that limitation.



Don't all the plugins you mention (sans Sonible & Melda) have similar upgrade fees when a new version is released? I think so.

Anyway no-one forces you to purchase the WUP, you still own the plugin & they will continue to work after the upgrade subscription is over (unlike other subscription models where you are renting the plugin/ license & they stop working after they run out)


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## wst3

To each their own!

There are quite a few Waves plug-ins that I use frequently - more than I expected in fact. These are all effects, not processors, but I really would not like to try to replace them!

Brauer Motion
Doppler
Doubler
Enigma
MetaFilter
MetaFlanger
MondoMod
Morphoder
S1 Stereo Imager
SoundShifter
SuperTap
UltraPitch
I also use the Durrough meters on every project, perhaps the only Waves emulation I count on.

I also use C1, C4, Q10, and even L1 from time to time. They are, for the most part, a different take on the processes. These could be replaced, I've tried demos from FabFilter and others, but really, for my purposes, it would be a replacement, not a step up/forward, so why bother?

Q-Clone and F6 are both interesting plug-ins. I suspect that if I took the time I'd find the to be unique, and quite useful. I have not done so yet.

A dozen plugins I use frequently, and when it is time to upgrade I'll have to pay the WUP. I'm ok with that.


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## sostenuto

Helpful post !! C1, C4, Q10, L1, Q-Clone, F6, Dorrough Stereo, + J37 Tape which I want, cost only $254.14.
Appreciate your experience with these, as FF / UAD / others are far more.
Will now compare with my NI_K12U and Plugin Alliance content to see what are key missing pieces.

Regards


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## Dietz

So much refusal ... 8-/ 

Waves' plug-ins are simply the "lingua franca" for someone like me who jumps back and forth between studios and DAWs all the time. Every professional place has them, they run on more or less all known platforms and hosts, and while there might be better contenders in specialised areas, their overall usefulness is still surprising.

Personally I couldn't work without classics like C1/4/6, L1/2/3, S1 and Q10, and I can't remember a single pop album I worked on during last decade where I didn't use Renaissance Vox, Renaissance Axe and/or Renaissance DeEsser. Lo-Air is on one of my parallel mix buses all the time. The IR-collection for IR1 is incredible. Reel ADT is so good. X-restauration series are easy to handle and very effective. F6 is just great, the API EQs are good enough when there is not enough 500-hardware around. ;-D And for a long time there were almost no alternatives anyway for Waves' 360-bundle when working in surround. ... I could go on like that for quite some time.

Admittedly, I'm not so fond of most of their so-called Signature bundles (trying to be jack-of-all-trades), but at least Mr. Manny Marroqin seems to be a brother-in-mind as I use "his" plugs pretty often.


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## Akarin

ProfoundSilence said:


> I have panagement, but it's not even remotely the same. I don't think it's a good idea to use panagement on anything except mono sources - and I use S1 to adjust the stereo properties of stereo sources. Panagement is more like a psychoacoustic binaural panner.
> 
> S1 for instance, I can narrow a tree mic, or widen it. Or I can simply shift the entire signal to the left or right. Or I can adjust the left/right levels, and adjust the panning of the left and right channels.
> 
> Typically speaking - I only really play with orchestral samples these days, hence only a need for the fabfilter stuff + a few choice reverbs + some stereo tools. Aside from that, it's just different forms of harmonic distortion/vibey stuff generally to color a signal.



Try ReCenter from Boom. It's quite awesome.


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## sinkd

I thought this was about the movie. Seriously, change the name of this thread.


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## PN99

I boght the VU meter and installed the free plugin yesterday. Snap....all my V9 plugins disappeared. Never once was I asked or informed installing the two new plugins will disable or rob me of some of my other plugins bought 2016-2018. I contacted Waves chat support, but they could only provide a link to a very complicated page, and suggested I email support. Now, Im in middle of finishing mastering, and just like that, 7 plugins were gone, and whole project worth zero. Imagine if Apple in next update would disable your C drive and you would have to pay 240 USD to get it back. 

What is the right consumer protection organization to contact, can anyone give directions, both European and USA. Thanks ahead.


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## chocobitz825

PN99 said:


> I boght the VU meter and installed the free plugin yesterday. Snap....all my V9 plugins disappeared. Never once was I asked or informed installing the two new plugins will disable or rob me of some of my other plugins bought 2016-2018. I contacted Waves chat support, but they could only provide a link to a very complicated page, and suggested I email support. Now, Im in middle of finishing mastering, and just like that, 7 plugins were gone, and whole project worth zero. Imagine if Apple in next update would disable your C drive and you would have to pay 240 USD to get it back.
> 
> What is the right consumer protection organization to contact, can anyone give directions, both European and USA. Thanks ahead.



Best I can tell, for my mac system at least, is that when I installed v10 plugins, it erased the v9 plugins and bundles and replaced them with a v10 bundle. The problem is, the v10 bundle only counts v10 plugins. I think there is probably a way to download and reinstall your v9 stuff again, but its a massive pain in the ass, and even though I had both versions on my computer, it caused havoc for my DAW. Its just a terrible system.


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## PN99

When I installed V10 plugins, at least it asked and informed about ‘updating’ the other v9 plugins, if I wanted. Therefore I deliberately didnt update them, thats about 1.5 years ago or so. All was fine.

This time they didnt even inform or ask about updating. The new Waves central just scanned what was on the hard drive and robbed them away.

Imagine you buy a car and take it to the store where you are a good customer, to install a new brake system. The store rips off 10 parts of the car - two wheels included - and says you need to pay 10.000$ to get them back.


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## chrisr

PN99 said:


> I boght the VU meter and installed the free plugin yesterday. Snap....all my V9 plugins disappeared. Never once was I asked or informed installing the two new plugins will disable or rob me of some of my other plugins bought 2016-2018. I contacted Waves chat support, but they could only provide a link to a very complicated page, and suggested I email support. Now, Im in middle of finishing mastering, and just like that, 7 plugins were gone, and whole project worth zero. Imagine if Apple in next update would disable your C drive and you would have to pay 240 USD to get it back.
> 
> What is the right consumer protection organization to contact, can anyone give directions, both European and USA. Thanks ahead.



I was slagging Waves off for a similar but different thing a couple of weeks ago, but in fairness to them getting the v9 versions back is not tooo painful (but still probably more complicated than it might be with most other devs...)

There's a link to a zip file that contains the installers for ALL the v9 plugs on their website. Download it and in waves central select to install the legacy (v9) versions from a local installer - and they will all come back.

Pain in the arse but it only takes 5 mins or so. No extra £££ required, at least not in my case, and I've never purchased WUP or similar.

best,
Chris


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## PN99

Even the guy in chat said its a complicated issue. This was a deliberate hack. I was coerced to pay 240$, yea, if I was not in middle of mastering I might have time to download a 3.2GB (!!) zip file, wait for their support to reply to email, and try to find the old plugins somehow.

Saying its a five minute thing is not true.

This was a deliberate hack, meticulously planned. How dare they.


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## PN99

And I have asked for directions to consumer protection organizations. The question is still open.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

It's absolutely easy to install older versions of the plugins and it doesn't take more than a few minutes. I have no idea why so many people are making this such a scandalous issue.

Stick it to the maaaan, dude.


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## PN99

I was asking for consumer protection organization directions. Not some random guys answer how ‘easy’ it is, when you been ripped of your plugins, and when it was not an ‘easy’ thing to get them back. Even chat suggested contacting support by email as its complicated. Seems the installation is deliberately made complicated, also via support, and how can a zip fie be 3.2 GB.

Furthermore I will also raise this as an internal complaint within Waves, once I have their answer I will take it further. The installer should not rob your plugins like that.


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## chrisr

PN99 said:


> And I have asked for directions to consumer protection organizations. The question is still open.





PN99 said:


> I was asking for consumer protection organization directions. Not some random guys answer how ‘easy’ it is



Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_consumer_organizations

Found it using an amazing internet search tool I discovered back in '99!

Was really just trying to help.

best,
some random guy


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