# Headphones that are better than Sennheiser HD-series?



## 10Dman (May 4, 2017)

Hello everyone! 
I'm currently mixing on the HD650's from Sennheiser, and really enjoy their clarity and sound. Coming from Shure SRH440 which sounded like ass, switching to the HD650 was like experiencing a whole new level of sound and clarity. After a couple of years using the Sennheisers I now wish to step it up even further with a new pair of headphones to top my current ones.
Oh yeah... and my mixes go a lot better with the new headphones!

*Does anyone know if there are some headphones that are better than the HD650s for mixing?*
Price is not really a concern.

If you have some links to your mixes and what headphones you used mixing them, please post them as well 

P.S I don't have a room available for mixing with monitors/speakers so headphones have to do.

10Dman


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## muk (May 4, 2017)

If the cost is no issue try the Stax SR-009. Still very expensive, but more sensibly so than the Stax, the Sennheiser HD800 or HD800 S. They are both good for mixing as they are very good at imaging, and have an analytical sound signature. Could be a bit tiring over longer sessions though.
In the pricerange of the HD650s I don't know of any headphones that would be better. There are a few that equal it sonically, and have a different sound signature. The Beyerdynamic DT880s, and AKG K701 come to mind. As said I wouldn't qualify them as better than the 650s though. Different, and on the same - very good - level.


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## mc_deli (May 4, 2017)

My HD650s sound better for mixing (flatter response) with Sonarworks correction on. 
I know they would sound even better if I had a better headphone amp (than the Babyface).

What is powering your HD650s?


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## rvb (May 4, 2017)

I really love the HD 650 hdphns, but they, for me personally, don't translate well when I use them for mixing purposes, even with sonarworks I feel like there is a bit of crucial high end information missing. They go extremely well with the Asgard 2 btw!! I am a big Hifiman fan, but they aren't particularly flat as well. Audeze seems nice for more electronic bassy type music, but I still think it's best to try as many different ones out somewhere if you get the chance, because everyone seems to have different favorites anyway!! The Beyerdynamic T90 is in my opinion very underrated, they do have a tiny bit of harshness to them, but I like that a lot. Since I am aware of this and learned the 'weakness' I can get really good mixes with the t90! Anyway that was my opinion shared again about the 'best' hdphns , hope that helps haha.


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## mc_deli (May 4, 2017)

10Dman said:


> Hey, thanks for your reply!  They are powered by the almost the same soundcard as you, the RME Babyface Pro.


The Pro headphone amp is a better than the original BF IIRC but still not great. Is that actually the weak link and where you should spend?


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## afterlight82 (May 4, 2017)

If cost no issue, consider also the Audeze LCD-3 with custom Sonarworks correction. (open back ones)

They sound phenomenal, and flipping on and off the Grace m905 cross-feed you can really get a pretty fantastic mix going. The Stax recommended above...also killer. But none of it is cheap 

the 650's with the sonar works plugin...would be pretty darn good.


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## jtnyc (May 4, 2017)

I use HD600's and love them. Very flat. The 650's sounded bottom heavy and a bit hyped on top to me. I find the 600's translate very well for mixing and they are a pleasure to listen to


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## muk (May 5, 2017)

10Dman said:


> Have been looking at the HD800 and HD800S, but read that they have some harmonic distortion in them to boost bass frequencies a lot



That would be the HD800 S, not the HD800. It's a 'boost' compared to the HD800 which was a bit bass light. The HD 800 has a slight peak at around 6kHz, that's corrected as well on the HD800 S. If you do a direct listening comparison with your HD 650 you'll probably notice that these 'deviations from flat' on the HD 800 /800 S are much less than the colourations of the frequency spectrum in most other cans. The HD 800 are really pretty 'natural' compared to most other headphones.

Take a look at frequency response charts too. They can give a first impression of their sound signature and a re a good way to choose the headphones you want to listen to directly in stores.


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## Andreas Moisa (May 5, 2017)

I'm about to check out Audeze LCD-X and Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro.


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## ghostnote (May 5, 2017)

HD800 of course. Best mixing headphones I have ever worked with. A joy. Nothing wrong with the 600/650, but if your room acoustics aren't that great and you need your mix to be as good as it can get with headphones, then the HD800 is what you're looking for.


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## soundgeek (May 5, 2017)

You may want to take a look at ATH-R70x ...


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## fixxer49 (May 17, 2017)

10Dman said:


> Hello everyone!
> I'm currently mixing on the HD650's from Sennheiser, and really enjoy their clarity and sound. Coming from Shure SRH440 which sounded like ass, switching to the HD650 was like experiencing a whole new level of sound and clarity. After a couple of years using the Sennheisers I now wish to step it up even further with a new pair of headphones to top my current ones.
> Oh yeah... and my mixes go a lot better with the new headphones!
> 
> ...


 Beyer DT880 all the way


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## wbacer (May 17, 2017)

I love my HD 800s, huge sound field and super comfortable.


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## midiman (May 26, 2017)

I have the HD 800s. The best headphones I ever had. It is a major upgrade from the HD 650's which I owned before getting the 800's. Highly recommended. Orchestral music sounds lush and amazing with it. Clarity, lushness, spaciousness, depth and beauty are words that come to my mind when describing the experience.


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## MichaelM (May 26, 2017)

I like mixing a bit more with my Beyer DT880s. I feel they might be more neutral in that area than my HD 650s. I will also sometimes use AKG K712 when mixing. 

However when just sitting back listening to music for enjoyment I tend to lean to my 650s.


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## midiman (May 27, 2017)

MichaelM said:


> I like mixing a bit more with my Beyer DT880s. I feel they might be more neutral in that area than my HD 650s. I will also sometimes use AKG K712 when mixing.
> 
> However when just sitting back listening to music for enjoyment I tend to lean to my 650s.



I Own both Beyer DT 880, and Sennheiser HD800's. You cannot compare them. The DT's are good, but not accurate. 

I mix most of my stuff on the HD 800's which are pretty neutral. They sound rich and spacious, but they are neutral enough to mix quite accurately on. The simulate the feeling of listening to great speakers on a great sounding room. The perfect world situation is to have high end speakers on a beautifully professionally treated room. The HD 800s is about as close to that you'll get IMO for a fraction of the cost.


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## MichaelM (May 27, 2017)

midiman said:


> The simulate the feeling of listening to great speakers on a great sounding room. The perfect world situation is to have high end speakers on a beautifully professionally treated room. The HD 800s is about as close to that you'll get IMO for a fraction of the cost.


Hey @midiman, great description of the HD 800s. I've never heard them myself. If you've heard or listened to 650s, would the 800s be considered more neutral than the 650?


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## EvilDragon (May 27, 2017)

midiman said:


> The DT's are good, but not accurate.



Neither are perfectly accurate, to be honest. Look at how close they really are, and obviously Senns have more bass boost. So they're even _less_ accurate than Beyers.








Myself, I am in the DT880 camp!


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## Vik (May 27, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Neither are perfectly accurate, to be honest. Look at how close they really are, and obviously Senns have more bass boost. So they're even _less_ accurate than Beyers.


I have 650 and 880, and 650 always felt more linear to me. Looking at that picture, that's probably because the if you adjust the volume upwards on the 880, so the sound as loud enough, the peak in the high register will become very clear.


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## EvilDragon (May 28, 2017)

650 seems to be more lacking in highs, more emphasized low end:









I think everyone should be balancing their headphones with this: http://www.sonarworks.com/headphones


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## nik (May 28, 2017)

How come nobody is mentioning the akg k812?


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## Kaan Guner (May 28, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> 650 seems to be more lacking in highs, more emphasized low end:
> 
> I think everyone should be balancing their headphones with this: http://www.sonarworks.com/headphones



It sucks that neither this or the other company support my Gemini HSR-1000, Takstar Pro 80.


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## EvilDragon (May 28, 2017)

You can contact them and they can make a profile for you, for an additional fee, I think. I would say they probably want to deal with the most popular models first, dunno?


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## Phryq (May 29, 2017)

I use Oppo PM-3 and love them, but I can't use open (too much noise).


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## robgb (May 29, 2017)

KRK KNS 8400s. Great price. Flat, clear sound.


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## midiman (May 29, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Neither are perfectly accurate, to be honest. Look at how close they really are, and obviously Senns have more bass boost. So they're even _less_ accurate than Beyers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



EvilDragon, thank you for showing us this graph, however I don't believe in looking at headphones by looking at graphs... They have to be experienced - with your ears. You can show me any graph for the HD 800's, but I can tell you, from experience, that when I compare the DT880's to the HD 800's its like if a curtain is opened when listening to the same piece through the HD 800's. All of a sudden you can hear everything. The good stuff and also the bad stuff. They are so crystal clear that you can definitely mix on them, as you can hear every imperfection and take appropriate action to correct it.

It is almost unfair to compare the DT 880 to the Sennheiser 800. They are on different categories IMO. It is like comparing a an average Lexus, to a high end Porsche.


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## midiman (May 29, 2017)

MichaelM said:


> Hey @midiman, great description of the HD 800s. I've never heard them myself. If you've heard or listened to 650s, would the 800s be considered more neutral than the 650?



MichaelM, the HD800 are more clear then any other headphones I've tried. They were the best investment I did because they sound way better then my very good and more expensive speakers. So yeah, the 800's are way more clear then and I'd say neutral. They sound great on all kinds of music, especially orchestral, but they surely do not hide mistakes or weaknesses in your mix. I recommend them strongly.


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## EvilDragon (May 30, 2017)

midiman said:


> EvilDragon, thank you for showing us this graph, however I don't believe in looking at headphones by looking at graphs...



Alright, so it's better to "believe" in one's personal biases (HD800 is more expensive than DT880 so it JUST HAS TO BE BETTER - cognition bias right there) than in science. Got it. 

Guess what, both of them are inaccurate and not flat. This is why they both need to be fixed with tools like Sonarworks. You have an audio demo on their page, try it, and see how not neutral and unbalanced your HD800 really are.


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## Kaan Guner (May 30, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Alright, so it's better to "believe" in one's personal biases (HD800 is more expensive than DT880 so it JUST HAS TO BE BETTER - cognition bias right there) than in science. Got it.
> 
> Guess what, both of them are inaccurate and not flat. This is why they both need to be fixed with tools like Sonarworks. You have an audio demo on their page, try it, and see how not neutral and unbalanced your HD800 really are.


A headphone being good isn't just about frequency response though. As that is different with every human because of their physical characteristics.


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## cmillar (May 30, 2017)

Try buying and using Sonarworks software with good headphones (I use Beyerdynamic DT-770 Professional).

You'll end up saving a ton of money and have an excellent headphone monitoring system for when needing to use headphones.

Plus, you can use the Sonarworks software with you real playback monitors as well if you use their calibration software. Excellent stuff!


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## midiman (May 30, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Alright, so it's better to "believe" in one's personal biases (HD800 is more expensive than DT880 so it JUST HAS TO BE BETTER - cognition bias right there) than in science. Got it.
> 
> Guess what, both of them are inaccurate and not flat. This is why they both need to be fixed with tools like Sonarworks. You have an audio demo on their page, try it, and see how not neutral and unbalanced your HD800 really are.



Evildragon, I did not say that because a pair of headphones is more expensive that it is consequently better. I would never say that. I said that one should not judge headphones based on graphs. You should experience them by listening to them and comparing them to others. I trust nothing more than one's ears. There are many things that influence the sound quality of headphones - ear-cup size, materials, how they fit to a particular head, etc. Often a high price point will be also indicative of higher quality materials which most probably affect the quality. 

So a graph only is not enough. I appreciate you posting the graph. That is good information, but not enough, certainly not enough to make final judgments of a pair of headphones. Also the suggestion about Sonarworks is a good one. I will certainly check that out. I did not know about that software and sounds very useful. Thank you for that suggestion. 

But please lets keep it friendly in here. I meant well. I always do. When I see an all caps response it feels like someone is shouting back to me, and I don't find that appropriate. 
I appreciate your opinion, and other's opinions, and hope you appreciate mine. This is a healthy forum to exchange ideas and experiences. 

Peace.


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## Øivind (May 30, 2017)

There is a nice (tho a bit ageing) flagship headphones review here: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared.634201/ Which contains most of the usual suspects 

It seems like they have changed the forum layout since last time i read it, so things are a bit weirdly placed, but it contains lots of great info. Just make the browser less wide, should make it easier to read.


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## EvilDragon (May 30, 2017)

midiman said:


> I trust nothing more than one's ears.



Well, honestly, since I know that ears can be fooled in a myriad of ways (let's just mention the McGurk effect for starters), I trust no one's ears, not even my own very often. So yes, graphs are most helpful. IMHO.


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