# Dealing with a client who obvious didn't check your resume?



## shadoe42 (Aug 23, 2012)

Now first off I certainly am a very very small fishy  Most of my work involves the creation of tracks in exchange for a given sound library or piece of software rather than an exchange of actual money. But I still try to be as professional as possible.

When I solicit a new client I always send examples of my work and ask them what they are after in a demo track and tell them that if after listening to some of my work they feel my overall style would work for them then get in touch.

A couple of time lately it has become apparent that the client did in fact not bother to listen. Gave vague directions of "can't wait to see what you come up with" then when i deliver the track it is of course nothing like what they expected.

How far is it proper to query a client on what exactly they want or if they reviewed your examples? I am still working on the second case but in the first case I did after some question deliver a track more to the clients liking. 

for this latest round after I will be delivering a second track (two were agreed upon) that is hopefully more in his style. After some discussion he back pedaled on his stance a bit for the first track

I always try to deliver what the client wants which is why i try to get as detailed directions or at least desires as I can. But we all do have a preferred style to compose in.

Anyway I guess I am just curious as to how others deal with this sort of situation so I can hopefully better avoid it in the future.


Ed/shadoe42


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## José Herring (Aug 23, 2012)

In the initial stages give them what they want even if you know that that isn't going to work. Always try to find out what they're listening too. If they can't tell you, its usually because they don't know.

It's hit or miss sometimes. Sometimes they know and can express what they want. Sometimes you get the "we know it when we hear it". The latter is the worst.

In the past I've also tried to figure out what music they like best. That way you get a frame of reference. I've also sent youtube vids of things that I think might work with their film. Then once they like something send something like that.

If you've bothered to send music at their request then I usually insist that they at least listen. Very few people will not listen once you've contacted them a few times. It's an integrity thing with me. If you've asked for a demo then you at least should listen.

That's really 1/2 the battle. Getting them to listen. The other half is giving them what they want.

Lately, I've gotten a lot of interest by showing people first that I can compose good sounding music, then once they're interested, finding out what they are looking for and doing a demo that exactly matches that. 

My reasoning is that if they think they need it, then give that to them first, once you got the job then worry about what's going to actually work. But, if you're talking to a director and he said that he thinks, Lady Gaga is the perfect sound for his score, then give him 3 cues of lady Gaga sounding stuff. Later, once you've got his trust, then you can explain to him why lady Gaga isn't going to work. Or maybe it will? You don't know.

I've split it up into two parts, what will land the job, then once gotten what will work. The two aren't the same. Sometimes not even remotely the same.

For example I'm in talks right now for a project. The guy really wanted a very specific kind of music. that music may work only once in the film. The rest will be thriller music. But, he wouldn't be talking to me if I didn't give him music for Dobro first. Even though the Dobro will only work in one part of the film.


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## reddognoyz (Aug 23, 2012)

josejherring @ Thu Aug 23 said:


> I've split it up into two parts, what will land the job, then once gotten what will work. The two aren't the same. Sometimes not even remotely the same.



Brother ain't it the truth! The other way I see it is.

Client: "Hey composer dude, what is 2 plus 2?"

Me: "No problem client dude, I know the answer to that. what do you want it to be???"


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## Conor (Aug 23, 2012)

I no longer consider it acceptable to start work without having a fairly good idea what the client wants.

If it's a new client and they don't know what they want, then the first task is to help them figure it out. Typically I learn everything I can about their project, come up with 2-3 possible directions, and then send them examples (my previous stuff, YouTube clips, whatever).

I explain why I picked those examples, so they can understand the thought process and possibly tell me where I'm going wrong.

If they're not willing to have this conversation, that is a HUGE red flag for me, and I will probably decline the project. (Diplomatically, of course.)

Certainly at the very very small fish level, I've found that people who refuse to discuss music direction and give you the "I know it when I hear it" line are full of shit. They typically want some very specific cliched sound, and you won't find out what it is without days or weeks of wasted effort because they have absolutely zero appreciation for your time.

/rant :mrgreen:


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## Jimbo 88 (Aug 24, 2012)

New clients are always a lot of work. I don't know why, but i am always surpised by how little people know about music and how bad of "ears" they have. People who are making music desicions who have a terrible sense of music.

My favorite was a client who'd give me instructions like " I want it atmospheric", then complained that my music had notes that where "too long".

New clients are hard work. just the nature of the beast.

My suggestion is to be a good listener, ask questions. Find out what kind of music they like before you proceed.


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## midphase (Aug 24, 2012)

CobraTrumpet @ Thu Aug 23 said:


> I no longer consider it acceptable to start work without having a fairly good idea what the client wants.



Yup...life's way too short and the money way too tight nowadays to become someone's personal whim realization tool.

I've gone as far as limiting the number of revisions that I'm contractually obligated to do on any cue, editors and writers do this ALL THE TIME!!!

There is a wealth of soundtracks out there to be able to refer to with a client and have a very clear line of communication even with someone who doesn't have a good musical vocabulary. 

I fall into the camp that actually likes temp scores. They provide an invaluable peek into the director's brain even if the final score will sound quite different from the temp.


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## shadoe42 (Aug 24, 2012)

Thanks for the responses. Lots of good info in there.


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## JJP (Aug 24, 2012)

midphase @ Fri Aug 24 said:


> Yup...life's way too short and the money way too tight nowadays to become someone's personal whim realization tool.


A sublime statement, Kays. o-[][]-o


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## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 26, 2012)

I have had a similar experience like josejherring.

I am in the middle of scoring my first feature film. When they were still finalizing a composer, they listened to my music, asked me to write some new material (according to their brief) and then finally, it was a combination of:

1. I got recommended by a top composer
2. Cheaper to hire a new composer
3. The demo sounds good
4. About 15 other additional composer credits on feature films and lots of commercials.

On the day of the first sort of WIP presentation of Reel 1, the director started saying things that she really wanted out of the score (as had been discussed before but mostly about feeling not so much genre-wise). 

I immediately realised, what I had done was not at all in line with what she was thinking. So, I was hesitant to play some of that stuff. I even told her honestly that in that case, I would like to give the opening credits another shot. The rest of the stuff was fine and she liked it with some minor IN and OUT cue changes.

However, the director was curious to hear what I had done. So, I finally played it to her and she loved it! So much that she changed her mind and even called me back a few times after playing it to her colleagues who also seemed to have liked it a lot.

So, sometimes you can change the directors mind with something you think might work better. Of course, largely speaking it helps to be on the same page - emotion wise. But what music to put is a bit tricky. 


Tanuj.


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## Rctec (Aug 26, 2012)

...just a few random thoughts (I'm sitting in a sampling session, watching paint dry...)
Nothing's changed in the 30 years I've been doing this. Budgets where always terrible at the start of anyone's career.
But what's wrong with doing revisions? I like exploring new possibilities. All thats happening is, you are being given another chance to invent, to have fun writing music, to get better at it.
Music is indefensible. You can't talk anyone into liking a piece of music. Its so hard to be specific in words about music, even for the best director, so there's nothing to really talk about until something is written, thrown up to picture, that the director and the composer can discuss.
I've never written for "the client". I try to do what I think is right for the project, the movie, the story, the vibe. It either resonates with the director or not. When I started out, I had to do lots more revisions. I just wasn't any good at it yet, (i know, some of you think I'm still no good) my picture sense wasn't that developed, and that just takes time and practice. I've never come across a director who told me what to write. I always saw it as my job to help the director find the right tone for the film. I come at things with a concept, an idea and a point of view. That doesn't mean that I'm right, it just means I have a personal starting point. I've chucked whole scores out, even though they where signed of by the director and the studio, because by working my way through the movie, I started to really understand it, and realized I was barking up the wrong tree. But, so what. It's writing music, and if you don't feel passionately about that, why bother getting up in the morning.
Remember too, the director is on your side! He wants you to help him make his movie better, so it's all about you succeeding with your vision.
Budget doesn't come into it. "Driving Miss Daisy" is one Korg M1 and a shitty sampler. All those "Working Title" pictures I started on where an adventure of how to write a score with a cardboard box, a rubber band and a reckless sense of adventure.
The movie, more than any person chattering away in your ear, should dictate the style of music. Always reach for the impossible. Be scared and humbled before the task. Have a laugh. And remember, you are all in this together...
Best,
H


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## José Herring (Aug 26, 2012)

Rctec @ Sun Aug 26 said:


> ...just a few random thoughts (I'm sitting in a sampling session, watching paint dry...)
> Nothing's changed in the 30 years I've been doing this. Budgets where always terrible at the start of anyone's career.
> But what's wrong with doing revisions? I like exploring new possibilities. All thats happening is, you are being given another chance to invent, to have fun writing music, to get better at it.
> Music is indefensible. You can't talk anyone into liking a piece of music. Its so hard to be specific in words about music, even for the best director, so there's nothing to really talk about until something is written, thrown up to picture, that the director and the composer can discuss.
> ...



Excellent points for sure.

When I wrote my first film score I had an "us against them attitude". The score came out horribly. Not as horribly as the film but pretty bad. That's when I realized that you really have to work with the film makers. Also, once you've built that bond, the film makers are far more likely to consider you "part of the team".


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## Matt Christensen (Aug 26, 2012)

> But what's wrong with doing revisions? I like exploring new possibilities. All thats happening is, you are being given another chance to invent, to have fun writing music, to get better at it.



As someone just starting out composing I definitely feel this way. I am loving doing lots of small projects in incredibly diverse styles and learning how to speak authentically in that musical language - especially ones out of my comfort zone.

It is great to hear highly experienced professionals still feeling that way about it.

Cheers
Matt


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## Mike Marino (Aug 26, 2012)

Excellent points from Hans and Jose.


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## musophrenic (Aug 27, 2012)

Rctec @ Mon Aug 27 said:


> ...just a few random thoughts (I'm sitting in a sampling session, watching paint dry...)
> Nothing's changed in the 30 years I've been doing this. Budgets where always terrible at the start of anyone's career.
> But what's wrong with doing revisions? I like exploring new possibilities. All thats happening is, you are being given another chance to invent, to have fun writing music, to get better at it.
> Music is indefensible. You can't talk anyone into liking a piece of music. Its so hard to be specific in words about music, even for the best director, so there's nothing to really talk about until something is written, thrown up to picture, that the director and the composer can discuss.
> ...



Lol, after all the intense TDKR work, a sampling session would count as a bit of a vacation, I guess. Just chilling in the studio, hanging out at VI Control 

Great points, :D I especially agree with 'the director is on your side' ... It's great that after so many years of doing this with your fair share of directors, you can still see things very positively.

And I for one think you're exquisitely good, I still can't get the TDKR score out of my head


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## shadoe42 (Aug 27, 2012)

Nothing is wrong with doing revisions. I have done them in the past and even delivered entirely new tracks when they results were not pleasing to a client. Oddly enough in this case I offered and he said no lets just move to the next track. He decided after the fact and some discussion it seems that he liked the track after all. 

Its also a case of basically no direction given just handed me a soundset and told "can't wait to see what you come up with" 

And part of it is my own fault for not querying further at the start. I am not denying that  

Again just trying to get a feel for how others deal with these situations.


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## José Herring (Aug 27, 2012)

Well Hans has some points, ones that I've never considered before. Which is mainly that you can't really talk about music without examples. Which I think is the problem I'm having a lot. I think a lot of composers do.

I know that Hans does lengthy suites of music not to picture and passes them to the film makers ( I also hate the word "clients", I didn't become a lawyer for a reason. I don't want "clients" music is so much more personal than that.).

It has me thinking of new ways to approach scoring and to not take it so personally when film makers want changes.

One thing that's helped me a lot though lately is to have enough integrity to be happy with your own work rather than just trying to please everybody else. My thinking is that I'm way harder on myself and have way higher musical standards than the people I work for. And, in experience if I'm happy with the work then that usually shows. Also, for some reason the film makers I work for want to know if I'm happy with the work I'm doing. Made me look at the work I was doing and I got way hyper critical, but at least production wise my work has gotten more professional sounding. At any rate I've gotten more excited lately to continue on.


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## soundslikejoe (Aug 28, 2012)

Can I just say.... 

I had a recent opportunity crop up and I'm dealing with all these same decisions and thoughts.... and this forum rocks. 

THANK YOU ALL. I started writing for film in 2007 and am still learning my craft (and how to work with directors). It's threads like this that make me feel less alone in my quest. I'm not in a big film town.... there are few like us here.... reading these discussions is fascinating and helpful. 


Cheers!... 
o-[][]-o


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