# Am I crazy, or should this obviously be a standard DAW feature?



## CT (Nov 30, 2018)

We can choose between piano roll view or score view in our DAW's secondary windows, but in the main arrange window, every track is only represented by a stripped-down piano roll.







Why can't we also have something like this?






Is there a reason I'm missing which makes this a dumb or impractical idea? It seems like it would be extremely useful.


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## d.healey (Nov 30, 2018)

You can do that in Reaper and Ardour (piano roll though not notation)


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## CT (Nov 30, 2018)

Yeah, I need the notation.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it would resolve the difficulties I've run into with writing live at the computer rather than on paper. 

How can this not exist yet?!


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## d.healey (Nov 30, 2018)

Why not use a score writer?


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## CT (Nov 30, 2018)

They're not something I can work well with.

For me, it's either writing it by hand and then playing it in, or coming up with the music in real time at the computer, and writing it down later if need be.

I've come to prefer the latter, but I would love to be able to have a better overview of things right in the main window in the way that this would allow.


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## d.healey (Nov 30, 2018)

I've just put in a feature request on the Reaper forum for this because I think I could find it useful too.


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## Matt Riley (Nov 30, 2018)

Yes this would be great in Logic.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 30, 2018)

I think you can do this in Cakewalk. (now free) by setting it in the options.


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## Henu (Dec 1, 2018)

At least for me this would never be used while doing mockups/ finals, because I play everything in and quantize only about 50%. And don't get me even started on, e.g. moving CSS legato strings, etc. 
With that workflow, your notation will quickly turn into a dotted and legato nightmare from hell while the piano roll is still easily interpretted due to it's "resolution" (for the lack of a better word)

This would come definitely handy if you're purely orchestrating, but for what it comes to mockups, I'd never use it myself in that context. However, I'd love to get the option to Cubase for those orchestrational purposes, so I'm definitely vouching for it too!


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## Vik (Dec 1, 2018)

miket said:


> Is there a reason I'm missing which makes this a dumb or impractical idea? It seems like it would be extremely useful.


The closest you get to this in Logic is full score mode with instrument names enabled. This mode has the benefit over what you suggest that you have all the score features available in the same window - and that “track height” won’t be an issue. With your suggestion, Logic would need a way to make sure then piano tracks would be shown in full height while single clef tracks only would occupy as much space as they actually need. 
But I like your idea!


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## d.healey (Dec 1, 2018)

Henu said:


> At least for me this would never be used while doing mockups/ finals, because I play everything in and quantize only about 50%.


Reaper has a separate display quantize option for notation. So the MIDI data isn't affected it is just displayed more cleanly, I find this works very well even for my sloppy playing.


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## Henu (Dec 1, 2018)

Seriously? That's _incredibly_ clever!!!


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## SchnookyPants (Dec 1, 2018)

I seem to recall that when I questioned the new notation feature in REAPER - because it "jumped" every measure between the end of one measure, and the start of the next, there was a logical explanation for this "jump" during playback while in notation view. It's because of the fact that a small space is necessary between the vertical bar indicating the start of a measure and the first note in that measure.

So, it doesn't seem this would be conducive to doing what you suggest above.

Given the choice posited in thread title, I vote "crazy".


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## KV626 (Dec 1, 2018)

miket said:


> Is there a reason I'm missing which makes this a dumb or impractical idea? It seems like it would be extremely useful.



Dumb I'm sure not, but impractical? In my case that would be definitely and completely useless. I work with MIDI notes/events the same way I work with audio: I need to trim, move easily, cut regions, etc.... It would be a nightmare to properly place, move, cut, etc on a staff. Besides, you don't necessarily record MIDI with a specific time signature/tempo, and working with keywitches would be another nightmare. And you need to access all MIDI events not just notes. Having the whole MIDI data diplayed on a staff would be an awful experience imo. That's why DAWs are not notation programs and that's why notation programs are not DAWs.


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## samphony (Dec 1, 2018)

Here is a 3 year old feature request of mine regarding a similar track based workflow. 

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=117899

Although this request was aimed at the ability to edit notes in-line instead of the editor.


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## CT (Dec 1, 2018)

d.healey said:


> Reaper has a separate display quantize option for notation. So the MIDI data isn't affected it is just displayed more cleanly, I find this works very well even for my sloppy playing.



Logic does too, and yes, that feature would be integral to what I'm after.


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## CT (Dec 1, 2018)

KV626 said:


> Dumb I'm sure not, but impractical? In my case that would be definitely and completely useless. I work with MIDI notes/events the same way I work with audio: I need to trim, move easily, cut regions, etc.... It would be a nightmare to properly place, move, cut, etc on a staff. Besides, you don't necessarily record MIDI with a specific time signature/tempo, and working with keywitches would be another nightmare. And you need to access all MIDI events not just notes. Having the whole MIDI data diplayed on a staff would be an awful experience imo. That's why DAWs are not notation programs and that's why notation programs are not DAWs.



But everything you're talking about here would still be entirely possible. I'm not suggesting the notation view totally replace the other options, it would just be nice to also have, for those of us who want the lines between DAW and notation blurred further.


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## CT (Dec 1, 2018)

SchnookyPants said:


> I seem to recall that when I questioned the new notation feature in REAPER - because it "jumped" every measure between the end of one measure, and the start of the next, there was a logical explanation for this "jump" during playback while in notation view. It's because of the fact that a small space is necessary between the vertical bar indicating the start of a measure and the first note in that measure.
> 
> So, it doesn't seem this would be conducive to doing what you suggest above.
> 
> Given the choice posited in thread title, I vote "crazy".



Hmm. I can see how lining things up would be a little tricky, but I can't believe there's not a way to make it work.


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## JohnG (Dec 1, 2018)

I'm not sure if I understand your objectives 100% but Digital Performer has had extensive notation editing forever. You can see all tracks, some tracks, or one track. You can set them to scroll or not.

Is that all? I have to believe that is available in other DAWs, including Logic.


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## MatFluor (Dec 1, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I'm not sure if I understand your objectives 100% but Digital Performer has had extensive notation editing forever. You can see all tracks, some tracks, or one track. You can set them to scroll or not.
> 
> Is that all? I have to believe that is available in other DAWs, including Logic.



I think he means the identical view in normal sequencer mode, but choosing for some track to be displayed as notation instead of an approximate piano roll thing


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## SchnookyPants (Dec 1, 2018)

miket said:


> Hmm. I can see how lining things up would be a little tricky, but I can't believe there's not a way to make it work.


Well, if you have more than one track showing, and the musical parts are different... in MIDI, the visible "MIDI note" length is exactly proportional to the length of the note; whereas in standard notation, a half note takes up no more space that a sixteenth note. It would get very messy, very fast.


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## DaddyO (Dec 1, 2018)

This is actually a great idea. I use Cubase and Dorico, but I agree that this would be extremely useful for someone who likes to compose in notation.

Also, it would make it much easier to do a MIDI record by playing the notation on the keyboard. Compose in notation and then then play it into MIDI using MIDI record all on the same screen. I wouldn't need fancy notation, just good enough that I can play it accurately.

Cubase currently makes you switch to a completely different view for their less-than-ideal notation functionality. Dorico has both Write Mode (notation) and Play Mode (MIDI tracks with MIDI notes and lanes for CC, etc.). But you can't see both in the same screen.

Again, great idea.


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## CT (Dec 1, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> I think he means the identical view in normal sequencer mode, but choosing for some track to be displayed as notation instead of an approximate piano roll thing



Yes, this!


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## CT (Dec 1, 2018)

SchnookyPants said:


> Well, if you have more than one track showing, and the musical parts are different... in MIDI, the visible "MIDI note" length is exactly proportional to the length of the note; whereas in standard notation, a half note takes up no more space that a sixteenth note. It would get very messy, very fast.



But this is a potential issue in real, printed scores too, right? Typesetters seem to have overcome it. I'm sure programmers could. Each bar would just have to be set at the minimum size required to legibly display whatever part is the most dense, and the rest scaled to fit within that size. Or am I misunderstanding your point?


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## Heinigoldstein (Dec 1, 2018)

Great idea and indeed wierd, no one came up with this till now ! Would be very, very usefull to me.


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## d.healey (Dec 1, 2018)

miket said:


> Each bar would just have to be set at the minimum size required to legibly display whatever part is the most dense, and the rest scaled to fit within that size.


I'm pretty sure this for of spacing can be enabled in Reaper already.


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## Soundhound (Dec 1, 2018)

I love this idea. For the borderline illiterate, speaking of myself here, I've sometimes wondered if it would be possible to have a detailed view of the piano roll in the tracks. It would be a positive boon (to paraphrase the great Clease) to have that. If it were fully editable it would be incredible, somewhat editable would still be great, even just a detailed representation would be very helpful.


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## gregh (Dec 1, 2018)

great idea - I would love to have this as a sort of "ghost" track so that I could read the (quanitised) notation whilst editing the (true) midi


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## SchnookyPants (Dec 1, 2018)

Here's what we do... (I just invented a new way to write music). It's simple, really. We just overlay the musical staff lines onto the MIDI notes/editor. Done.


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## CT (Dec 1, 2018)

d.healey said:


> I'm pretty sure this for of spacing can be enabled in Reaper already.



Yeah, I think all software that deals with notation handles that intelligently already. It would be a total mess otherwise, as SchnookyPants said.


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## d.healey (Dec 1, 2018)

Soundhound said:


> I love this idea. For the borderline illiterate, speaking of myself here, I've sometimes wondered if it would be possible to have a detailed view of the piano roll in the tracks.


You can already do this in Reaper. Select a MIDI item and press E. In Ardour this is the only way to edit MIDI, it doesn't have a separate piano roll window.



SchnookyPants said:


> Here's what we do... (I just invented a new way to write music). It's simple, really. We just overlay the musical staff lines onto the MIDI notes/editor. Done.


Someone came up with this idea on the Reaper forum a few years ago before Reaper had a notation editor. They made some mockups too which looked pretty good but it was never implemented.


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## MatFluor (Dec 1, 2018)

SchnookyPants said:


> Here's what we do... (I just invented a new way to write music). It's simple, really. We just overlay the musical staff lines onto the MIDI notes/editor. Done.



That's a similar approach as Overture does, overlaying midi note length on the staff I'm the editor/play view (I'll do a screenshot later on)


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## SchnookyPants (Dec 1, 2018)

Cool. I didn't know that. The staff would be optionally visible in either or both the track view and MIDI editor, and just expand & contract vertically with the height of the track, as the grid lines do horizontally.


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## Soundhound (Dec 1, 2018)

I want it in Logic. And I want it now.



d.healey said:


> You can already do this in Reaper. Select a MIDI item and press E. In Ardour this is the only way to edit MIDI, it doesn't have a separate piano roll window.


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## Saxer (Dec 2, 2018)

Great idea!

The score editor is very helpful. It's not there to replace the piano roll (editing note length etc) but it's way faster to have a look at a specific part to get a harmonic overview and edit note pitches. It's a nightmare (at least for me) to try to identify a chord structure in a piano roll. So the note editor doesn't have to show polished notation in DAW work. But nothing is faster in questions like "the bass is doing a chromatic approach here... what do I have to change in the brass to avoid clashes" or "this four part harmonized melody has a mistake somewhere... let's find it".


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## GtrString (Dec 2, 2018)

Presonus Studio One has integrated Melodyne and have a good exchange with the Presonus Notation and Notation app. Im guessing Studio One 4 will get integrated notation..


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## Woodie1972 (Jan 7, 2019)

DaddyO said:


> Dorico has both Write Mode (notation) and Play Mode (MIDI tracks with MIDI notes and lanes for CC, etc.). But you can't see both in the same screen.
> 
> Again, great idea.



In fact you can check both your piano roll and your notated score at the same time in Dorico. I'm not behind my pc right now, but if I recall correctly you have to open an extra window in the view menu and drag it there.
Not sure if this is the exact routine, but it is possible.


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## robgb (Jan 7, 2019)

miket said:


> Yeah, I need the notation.


Learn to use the piano roll. Study it, understand it. People who do will benefit from the knowledge. It will make their music better and will enrich their experience. Those who can't read and use a piano roll and midi data are really doing themselves a disservice. You simply can't become a great composer without that knowledge....


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## d.healey (Jan 7, 2019)

robgb said:


> Learn to use the piano roll... You simply can't become a great composer without that knowledge....


Really.... I think we have a different understanding of the term great composer


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## CT (Jan 7, 2019)

robgb said:


> Learn to use the piano roll. Study it, understand it. People who do will benefit from the knowledge. It will make their music better and will enrich their experience. Those who can't read and use a piano roll and midi data are really doing themselves a disservice. You simply can't become a great composer without that knowledge....



No.



d.healey said:


> Really.... I think we have a different understanding of the term great composer



I'm pretty sure he's just being facetious. I find both ways of visualizing music in a DAW useful, but I prefer notation. 

Obviously, a great composer will be best served by whichever approach they're most comfortable with.


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## muk (Jan 7, 2019)

Nononoooo, don't learn anything because Hans Heiri Huggentobler earned millions and was a famous composer without ever learning anything. Best stay away from all knowledge as far as can, you'll be all the better composer for it!


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## CT (Jan 7, 2019)

muk said:


> Hans Heiri Huggentobler



Don't you think he's a bit... overrated?


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## Woodie1972 (Jan 7, 2019)

I can read a piano roll without problems, but I find myself much more comfortable with a notated score. This way you can see immediately if your instrument groups are written correctly, with correct voicings f.e., which is much more difficult with the piano roll.
Dorico is heading in a direction which seems to do justice to both ways of writing, albeit that there is room for improvement, especially in the midi department. Nevertheless I think in a year or two Dorico will be the best of two worlds for media orientated composers, because of the very good notation part and, in a few years, a powerful midi/ audio engine and editing options.


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## Craig Duke (Jan 7, 2019)

Is this what you are looking for, in one window?


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## Woodie1972 (Jan 7, 2019)

Craig Duke said:


> Is this what you are looking for, in one window?


 What program is that?


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## brenneisen (Jan 7, 2019)

Woodie1972 said:


> What program is that?



Overture


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## ghostnote (Jan 7, 2019)

Honestly, if there's a feature you miss, reaper has it probably tomorrow. It's like a beta version for all the other DAWs.


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## robgb (Jan 7, 2019)

d.healey said:


> Really.... I think we have a different understanding of the term great composer


@miket's right. I'm being facetious. I've heard many people say the same type of thing about knowing how to read and write music notation, and was just trying to point out the silliness of the idea. Granted, both skills are extremely useful in their way, but a lack of either won't make or break you as a composer.


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