# New Spitfire Evolutions plugins



## ptram (Mar 7, 2019)

Hi,

Spitfire is continuing to move their libraries to their own plugin. This time, it is with some of the EVO Grids.

I like very much the new look, much more delicate and refined. But are still there advantages in the older Kontakt version?

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/info/faq/spitfire-evolutions/?utm_source=promo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=144-evos-1-2-4-free-order-recipients&utm_content=email-1-control

Paolo


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## Mornats (Mar 7, 2019)

Are you sure? There's been no announcement and those names in the FAQs don't seem to match any existing product names.


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## AdamKmusic (Mar 7, 2019)

Hmm looks like you stumbled on something yet to be announced! Looks like a new bunch of libraries & a collection

"
*IF I ALREADY OWN ONE OR MORE OF THESE PRODUCTS, DO I GET A DISCOUNT ON THE THEORY OF EVOLUTIONS COLLECTION?*

Yes. Log in and add the collection to your cart and the price will be automatically calculated for you. Remember, this Collection is only available until Thursday 21st March 2019.
"


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## SpitfireSupport (Mar 7, 2019)

Sorry guys, the "Evolutions" bundle should have been temporarily taken off sale. All will become clear in the next few hours.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 7, 2019)

*An Upgrade To Your Evolutions library *

*







We want to inform you of the new upgrade coming to the Evo Grid 1, Evo Grid 2 and Evo Grid 4 libraries. As you own one or more of these libraries you are eligible for the free upgrade(s).

Introducing the new libraries — Angular String Evolutions (formerly Evo Grid 1), Fragile String Evolutions (formerly Evo Grid 2) and Woodwind Evolutions (formerly Evo Grid 4). As well as the same content we all know and love, the update reimagines the evolution grid inside its own dedicated easy-to-use plugin, with the addition of an all-new selection of expertly curated presets created by our team, for instant playability and inspiration.

What do you do next? — You will receive an order confirmation email from us as we process your upgrade, and then you will receive another email informing you when your download is ready.

Can I keep using the Kontakt libraries? — Yes, you don’t have to download the new versions and even if you do, you can keep the old and new versions of the product if you like.

If you have any other questions please look at our http://mailout.www.spitfireaudio.com/t/42944401618653/777133991010260/ (FAQ here)

Thank you again for your continued support, and speak soon!

All the best,

Christian, Paul

and the Spitfire Team





*


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 7, 2019)

I own all the EVOs, and this is very cool news for me


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## reutunes (Mar 7, 2019)

Spitfire's download hosting costs must be through the roof.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 7, 2019)

poetd said:


> Well, am planning on picking these up anyway, so I'll happily cover some DL costs in exchange for a bundle intro-price.



I'm cuckoo for Evo 4 (you can get inspired for woodwinds in a big way there), plus Evos 3 and 2 are great whenever you're stuck for rhythms and pads, respectively.

Although the update for Evo 1 sounds great, I can't recommend 1 if you have 2. Just me. One of the few Spitfire purchases I regret.


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## fiestared (Mar 7, 2019)

This is a very great news, I personally like a lot the interface of this SA plug in, I use Kontakt because I have no choice, so, an alternative is very welcome. I would like to thank Spitfire Audio for this generous upgrade.


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## redlester (Mar 7, 2019)

I like both the Kontakt and the Spitfire interfaces. Ideally I’d have liked the new versions to be NKS compatible but as the Spitfire version (presumably like the other products) gives patch previews a-la Komplete Kontrol the only thing missing is the light guide, which for these libraries is not a major issue. 

Am wondering about Albions 2, 3 & 4 which are among the few “big” products not to be NKS yet. Presumably at some point they will either be upgraded or moved over to the Spitfire interface?


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## stonzthro (Mar 7, 2019)

This is great; downloading now. I wish they would reimagine Albion IV at some point - the current approach is a bit unwieldy!


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## n9n9n9 (Mar 7, 2019)

I would love this development if the Spitfire plugins supported MPE, polyphonic pressure or per channel CCs. With Kontakt I can use my ROLI to control dynamics per note with pressure, which is brilliant.


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## StillLife (Mar 7, 2019)

Mmmm, not too excited by this. I was hoping for NKS-versions of all the evo's, as I like the lightguide very much in the ones that are NKS (Tundra's Vral and OACE). When you randomize, the guide shows you which type of evo you will get for each key. Also: very easy to change parameters with the knobs of my S61. Very handy and inspirational. Think I'll stick with the evo's I already have (which are the ones I mentioned and Evo 3). I do hope Spitfire continue to offer support and updates to their NKS-libraries, as I have invested heavily in these.


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## emasters (Mar 7, 2019)

I have nothing against the Spitfire player. But after a year, I wish it would support the concept of multi-product hosting within a Single Spitfire player. Having a separate VST plugin for each instrument doesn't scale well (E.g., a defect must be fixed and re-installed in all versions of the player). And it would be much easier to mix/match across their product line within their player, it if was one VST plugin. Clearly, not the end of the world, as the current approach works. Perhaps in the future Spitfire will consider this?


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## ptram (Mar 7, 2019)

What I don't like very much in how the evolution of the Evolutions is evolving, is that you have to keep both versions in your drives until you convert every piece to the new format. And these are not light-weighted libraries!

Paolo


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 7, 2019)

Nope. Sticking with Kontakt for all the reasons stated plus simplicity.


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## thereus (Mar 7, 2019)

How does the memory management of the Spitfire player compare with Kontakt? Not that big a deal for evos perhaps, but if this is the direction...


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## playz123 (Mar 7, 2019)

I suspect the Spitfire player will evolve over time, and am not really sure what the fuss is about with these releases today. If one isn't happy with them or the updates then just stick with what you have. Seems every time something is released, even when it's for free, someone finds something negative to say about it.  As for me, today I'll just say thanks to everyone at Spitfire for the revised libraries and move on to assessing them...and hopefully working with them in the days ahead.


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## muziksculp (Mar 7, 2019)




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## muziksculp (Mar 7, 2019)

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/spitfire-evolutions/


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## MaxOctane (Mar 7, 2019)

ptram said:


> What I don't like very much in how the evolution of the Evolutions is evolving, is that you have to keep both versions in your drives until you convert every piece to the new format. And these are not light-weighted libraries!



Moving an existing track from Kontakt to new player seems very difficult. You'd have to manually select each grid cell to match the old.


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## mouse (Mar 7, 2019)

muziksculp said:


>




I feel like @christianhenson should be presenting Grand Designs or something


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## jtnyc (Mar 7, 2019)

Doesn't look like much of a change to the grid itself, and more than half of the UI is used for 2 sliders and 1 knob. I would have thought less scrolling would have been a goal. The grid should use all available space in the UI IMO. There's no need to use more than 50% of it for 3 controls. Also a way to identify the name of an evo would be helpful. I realize the names are long, so numbers make sense on the side of the grid, but it would be nice if you selected one, a proper name would appear. Identifying sounds with numbers just doesn't work as well as something that describes the sound.

Am I missing any other changes or improvements to what already exists in the Kontakt versions?


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## James Blick (Mar 7, 2019)

Have they changed the names of the EVOs to be less descriptive? That sounds like it would be detrimental to my composing. Not really a fan of this "upgrade". Shame that the only other EVO I wanted to buy (woodwinds) is no longer available in its original form


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## James Blick (Mar 7, 2019)

poetd said:


> So £50 more expensive each than the previous Kontakt Evos?
> Sorry guys, but F. no.


Did they really raise the price?


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## StillLife (Mar 7, 2019)

playz123 said:


> I suspect the Spitfire player will evolve over time, and am not really sure what the fuss is about with these releases today. If one isn't happy with them or the updates then just stick with what you have. Seems every time something is released, even when it's for free, someone finds something negative to say about it.  As for me, today I'll just say thanks to everyone at Spitfire for the revised libraries and move on to assessing them...and hopefully working with them in the days ahead.


I like Spitfire A LOT, have invested quite some euro's in their NKS-libraries over the past year or so, totally worth it, lovely company. But it is because that love (and that investment) that I am a little bit worried about the future of my libs, since the FAQ to these new libraries mention that the Kontakt versions of these three evo's will be retired. I don't like retirement - of nothing. I want to keep playing with my Spitfire libs and NKS, ad infinitum. So, not negative, just worried. The world is moving too fast.


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## n9n9n9 (Mar 7, 2019)

So... they are keeping the NI tax they were paying AND charging 50 more... AND have cut the utility of the library by locking it into their proprietary player? I’m just not sure what to say. I own all the evos and will be backing up my hard drives tonight.

The reason why I am saying negative things about this change is that it is a negative change. Spitfire is not listening to or advocating for their customers. I may be wrong but I don’t think anyone wants this: does anyone here prefer the Spitfire player plugin over Kontakt? I think Zimmer Strings and Whitacre are both worse for being non-Kontakt. I sincerely wish Spitfire would rethink this decision.


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## Zero&One (Mar 7, 2019)

So these are just EVO 1,2, and 4 but in a new plugin format? Or do they have new content


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## jbuhler (Mar 7, 2019)

James H said:


> So these are just EVO 1,2, and 4 but in a new plugin format? Or do they have new content



New presets. I don't think there are any new samples. Given this was in the works, it's a bit strange that LCOT didn't come out in the Spitfire player.



n9n9n9 said:


> So... they are keeping the NI tax they were paying AND charging 50 more... AND have cut the utility of the library by locking it into their proprietary player? I’m just not sure what to say. I own all the evos and will be backing up my hard drives tonight.



Looks like SF is thinking the Evos are not priced correctly with respect to their other products and is using this as an opportunity to change the price structure. I'm expecting an adjustment in price structure and microphone arrangement in line with—but more expensive than—the Studio Orchestra when they release the new version of the Symphony Orchestra later this year. I'm now wondering if the new version SSO is also going to involve porting the libraries to the Spitfire player.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 7, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> I'm now wondering if the new version SSO is also going to involve porting the libraries to the Spitfire player.


Good point - they've been sat on that for some time now.


n9n9n9 said:


> I may be wrong but I don’t think anyone wants this: does anyone here prefer the Spitfire player plugin over Kontakt?


I would prefer an all Kontakt Spitfire future too. I'm sure there's a logical reason for the change - and I'd love to know what that is. NI would have to be charging Spitfire a hefty license fee to offset the development $$ a new plugin must eat up. Interesting too, that Spitfire continue to release new Kontakt libraries.

Well, it's all assumption and guesswork anyway. The new VI is very pretty, regardless.


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## Michael Antrum (Mar 7, 2019)

Not sure I’m going to like the SSO in the new player. But at least I’ll get the choice to use it or not. I must be an old fart, because I’m being resistant to change. I think it’s only fair to give the new player an chance though, so I’ll wait for SSO to arrive in the new player. (If indeed that is what happening).

But new libraries only available in the Spitfire player might make me pause a little....


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## VinRice (Mar 7, 2019)

The Spitfire player is still a clusterfuck of usability issues. Why on earth can you not have all the mic faders on one page? Why an earth does the user interface collapse down to the upper half when in fact it is the lower half that you need to operate the plug in? Very silly.


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## Soundhound (Mar 7, 2019)

I don't mind the SF player, but not being able to have multiples in a single instance I do think is a problem for the way a lot of (most?) people like to work. CH/PT et al, if you're listening is this something that's possible to change/and if so maybe in the works?


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## jbuhler (Mar 7, 2019)

VinRice said:


> The Spitfire player is still a clusterfuck of usability issues. Why on earth can you not have all the mic faders on one page? Why an earth does the user interface collapse down to the upper half when in fact it is the lower half that you need to operate the plug in? Very silly.


Not to mention that they never seem to assign anything useful to the big knob that takes up way too much real estate!


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## n9n9n9 (Mar 7, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> Not sure I’m going to like the SSO in the new player. But at least I’ll get the choice to use it or not. I must be an old fart, because I’m being resistant to change. I think it’s only fair to give the new player an chance though, so I’ll wait for SSO to arrive in the new player. (If indeed that is what hap
> But new libraries only available in the Spitfire player might make me pause a little....



HZ Strings and Eric Whatacre Choir are new player only. I have them and wish they were Kontakt.


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## sostenuto (Mar 7, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Not to mention that they never seem to assign anything useful to the big knob that takes up way too much real estate!



Hopefully these ongoing SF_ bumps-in-the-road will smooth over time. Tryin to remain calm, cool, yet cautious.
Feeling better now for waiting on SStOrch. With both Symphonic and Symphony Studio main libs in some flux …. keeping this much powder dry, against excessive GAS, …. is getting tough. 

Have only EVO(s) _ Tundra & EVO 3 now so will watch and wait.
Careful with any 'assignments to the big knob'


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## James Blick (Mar 7, 2019)

I want EVO4, but I want it for Kontakt. What do I do? Can I buy a licence from someone?


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## rrichard63 (Mar 7, 2019)

James Blick said:


> Shame that the only other EVO I wanted to buy (woodwinds) is no longer available in its original form


I have the same comment. And, the list price has gone up $50, from $249 to $299.


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## jbuhler (Mar 7, 2019)

sostenuto said:


> Hopefully these ongoing SF_ bumps-in-the-road will smooth over time. Tryin to remain calm, cool, yet cautious.
> Feeling better now for waiting on SStOrch. With both Symphonic and Symphony Studio main libs in some flux …. keeping this much powder dry, against excessive GAS, …. is getting tough.
> 
> Have only EVO(s) _ Tundra & EVO 3 now so will watch and wait.
> Careful with any 'assignments to the big knob'


I don’t know if this is what will happen, and I have no inside information. it just makes a plausible scenario given the bits of information we have. The re-release of these EVOs surprised me and caused me to reevaluate some of my thinking about how SF plans to develop its player.


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## sostenuto (Mar 7, 2019)

rrichard63 said:


> I have the same comment. And, the list price has gone up $50, from $249 to $299.



Will be spending more time with Sonokinetic Woodwind Ensembles to learn what may be possible.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Mar 7, 2019)

I didnt get their Plugins to work on Windows with the labs range. Always like evo grid 2 though...

Well no Evolutions for me then I guess.

Lets hope the Orchestraltools Player will work better for me.


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## VinRice (Mar 7, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Not to mention that they never seem to assign anything useful to the big knob that takes up way too much real estate!



It's what happens when you get web designers to design a piece of specialist technical equipment.


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## jaketanner (Mar 7, 2019)

emasters said:


> I have nothing against the Spitfire player. But after a year, I wish it would support the concept of multi-product hosting within a Single Spitfire player. Having a separate VST plugin for each instrument doesn't scale well (E.g., a defect must be fixed and re-installed in all versions of the player). And it would be much easier to mix/match across their product line within their player, it if was one VST plugin. Clearly, not the end of the world, as the current approach works. Perhaps in the future Spitfire will consider this?



Is this the same player used with the HZ strings? If so, is there a purge samples feature? Otherwise it will be useless in larger templates.


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## thereus (Mar 7, 2019)

Does anyone know what MVP stands for?


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## James Blick (Mar 7, 2019)

thereus said:


> Does anyone know what MVP stands for?


I've heard Christian Henson use it to talk about the "Minimum Viable Piano" in his pianobook series. What context are you hearing it in?


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## Mornats (Mar 7, 2019)

thereus said:


> Does anyone know what MVP stands for?


Minimal viable product. The minimum set of features you build so you can release a product to be able to get useful feedback from customers.

I'm a UX designer and I'm trying to steer product teams away from doing MVP.


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## erica-grace (Mar 7, 2019)

Has anyone been able to successfully install and use the new SF player on Windows 7?


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## AllanH (Mar 7, 2019)

The MVP term can also be used along with MVC (Model/View/Controller) to mean Model/View/Presenter. I saw it first in the early 90s, as a programming paradigm used by Microsoft's foundation classes.

In view of Spitfire's UX I'm thinking @Mornats has it right.


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## Cinebient (Mar 7, 2019)

I am maybe in a minority but i prefer the Spitfire Player compared to their terrible small Kontakt GUIs (working mainly with a notebook/laptop).
But i also must say that it could be much improved in terms of usability and workflow.
I wish there was a microtuning option via .tun files to start with...


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## CT (Mar 7, 2019)

I'm also a fan of their player. Having the choir in that format has worked very smoothly for me, but then, I'm far from what you'd call a Kontakt "power user," so maybe there are a bunch of potential workflow differences I just don't notice.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 7, 2019)

I had heard they were giving free upgrades to owners of Evo and was wondering why I didn't get an email. I have #3, the one they didn't update. That explains it. 

I only have the free labs with the new player. But I still have most of the old Kontakt versions, so I forget to use the new version. I'm guessing there will be a bunch of problems as more and more people attempt to use the new player. Part of me understands wanting control over all aspects of the instruments they make. But another part thinks about how long it took EW to get Play to a usable form. It is hard when a lot of your customers make a living with your products and need them to work without problems and you are trying a new format that doesn't work they way they expect. 

Me? I'm so used to fighting with my DAW, I'm sure having a VST that doesn't work will barely be a blip....  Oh, wait. I already have VSTs that don't work.... Sigh


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## heisenberg (Mar 7, 2019)

erica-grace said:


> Has anyone been able to successfully install and use the new SF player on Windows 7?



Yes. If you haven't tried this, treat the instrument like a VST instrument use search when you are trying to bring it in. Hopefully you will find it.


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## MillsMixx (Mar 7, 2019)

I've been trying out both _Kontakt_ and _Spitfire Player_ versions side by side for comparison and there are pros and cons for both.

Here's a few:

My own ears tell me the _Player version_ seems to be a lot richer and fuller than _Kontakt_ or maybe it's just louder, hard to really tell so far but the comparison I would use is sort of like _Albion One_ vs. _Legacy_ as far as fullness.

I've only been playing with the woodwinds so far comparing the same Evo pegs and patches but Kontakt seems much more subtle. That's not a bad thing but I really have the crank it up all the way to match the volume of the Player.

The mic levels are more flexible in the player and include the additional 'distort' mic option which is similar to the warped presets in Kontakt...but then I don't really like the distorted/warped sound and never use those presets. To me they sound like a badly over modulated mix. Ya I get it, it's a sound design tool which adds a lot more options but for me it doesn't work for orchestral...synth maybe but I like my orchestra clean.

The player version is a MUCH bigger resource hog!..one of the big set backs for me.
It's a much more beautiful GUI than kontakt but you better have a fast computer if you'll be playing around with the mic positions. Kontakt loads a hell of a lot faster. Boom! You're ready to play!

However for me new engine is a lot more fun to play...but kontakt is easier probably since I know my way around Kontakt much better when using Spitfire instruments.

Kontakt has a big advantage to where you get folders with all the nicely labeled nki's. The patch names in the individual folders help make it easy by describing the sounds and how they evolve. I really like that!

I'm still leaning more towards Kontakt but the interface in the Player is gorgeous and resizable!

Why do we have to scroll though the mics though? Seriously there's enough room on the interface.

Maybe they'll address that.

EDIT: I just compared the string evos and they are more similar in comparison than what my ears heard with the woodwinds, once I boost the volume in Kontakt.


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## thereus (Mar 8, 2019)

MillsMixx said:


> I've been trying out both _Kontakt_ and _Spitfire Player_ versions side by side for comparison and there are pros and cons for both.
> 
> Here's a few:
> 
> ...



It's the resource question that concerns me. Kontakt's approach to resource use is so sophisticated and central to it's architecture. I hope they don't start using this player for the orchestral products until that work has been undertaken. I'm baffled also by the player being integrated into the products rather than being standalone with loadable libraries. That is going to be a lot of downloading whenever they fix a bug or add a feature.


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## idematoa (Mar 8, 2019)

*We can not do that !?*


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## prodigalson (Mar 8, 2019)

if Spitfire were considering their player an MVP on release with HZ Strings (?) then I have to say that they've had no shortage of feedback from the customer base on the shortcomings of the software and so in that sense, it's working out as it should. 

Let's just hope that they are in fact considering it an MVP and not the ideal version...


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## fiestared (Mar 8, 2019)

Cinebient said:


> I am maybe in a minority but i prefer the Spitfire Player compared to their terrible small Kontakt GUIs (working mainly with a notebook/laptop).
> But i also must say that it could be much improved in terms of usability and workflow.
> I wish there was a microtuning option via .tun files to start with...


At least , we're two...


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## antonyb (Mar 8, 2019)

As a software industry veteran, I don't see any shocking thing in what Spitfire Audio is doing.

Many of us have been complaining of the tinyness of Kontakt.
Spitfire is addressing that particular point in their own Spitfire Audio-ish way. Christian and Paul have always indicated that design was important to them. So they are following that route.

There is also clearly a business decisions in there. Sorry but that's the reality. They are a business, they need to pay salaries and further development (have your bills gone down lately?). Getting away from Kontakt licensing is a natural evolution for a company that is becoming more independent.

Finally, change always rattles some cages.
Although not a fan boy of SA, I do have a few libraries that I enjoy using, I am glad they are driving the industry their own way and bringing a fresh perspective on things.


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## VinRice (Mar 8, 2019)

antonyb said:


> As a software industry veteran, I don't see any shocking thing in what Spitfire Audio is doing.
> 
> Many of us have been complaining of the tinyness of Kontakt.
> Spitfire is addressing that particular point in their own Spitfire Audio-ish way. Christian and Paul have always indicated that design was important to them. So they are following that route.
> ...



I AM an SA fan boy and fully understand the business reasoning and fully embrace the need for their own player - but that is what is so disappointing. The aesthetic design is fabulous but the HZ Strings player for instance breaks at least 20 basic UX principles. Since these principles are well known and logical I can only assume that they were sacrificed on purpose to serve some nebulous concept of 'approachability', (either that or the UX designers were basically incompetent).

This is a fundamental strategic error, in my opinion, for expensive, specialist products used by professionals and serious amateurs. Now, having gone down this path, it is politically and psychologically difficult for them to change tack but I expect that over time the UI will morph into something more logical. The pre-teen composer demographic cannot be that large surely.

I won't be buying any more of the libraries that use the player. They just make my blood boil. Spitfire are by far the largest player in this game - they don't get a free pass.


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## brenneisen (Mar 8, 2019)

antonyb said:


> Getting away from Kontakt licensing



It's not about that. It's the piracy thing.


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## Geoff Grace (Mar 8, 2019)

Best,

Geoff


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## n9n9n9 (Mar 8, 2019)

antonyb said:


> As a software industry veteran, I don't see any shocking thing in what Spitfire Audio is doing.
> 
> Many of us have been complaining of the tinyness of Kontakt.
> Spitfire is addressing that particular point in their own Spitfire Audio-ish way. Christian and Paul have always indicated that design was important to them. So they are following that route.
> ...




I don’t disagree but the expectation that you can reduce function and severely cut flexibility of tools in a space like audio and composition is foolish. The new tools are worse for most use cases and they are being silent about that in the face of a good bit of criticism from their users, upon whose love and dedication to their products their business’s success rests. Frankly I’m baffled at the notion that anyone should advocate for their position. I own all the evos they make and I’m relieved that I have them as Kontakt versions as aggregating many instances of them within a single Kontakt instance (for mpe, for layering, etc) is the heart of my use case. In his new player they are (as I find HZS and EWC) much less useful.

In my mind the users that feel this way must be vocal—for the good of Spitfire. I find it pretty transparent that since Paul and Christian have taken a back seat as leaders that the company is serving its serious/professional users less well.


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## 667 (Mar 8, 2019)

I agree. I tolerate the player for LABS only. I would not (and have not) bought any of the libraries using it yet. 

I say yet because I believe they will eventually fix these things. But SFA is probably learning a lesson about how delivering software is easy but delivering good software is orders of magnitude harder. They'll get there eventually I'm sure.


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## ism (Mar 8, 2019)

n9n9n9 said:


> The new tools are worse for most use cases and they are being silent about that in the face of a good bit of criticism from their users, upon whose love and dedication to their products their business’s success rests. Frankly I’m baffled at the notion that anyone should advocate for their position



The problem is that by that argument, there would be no possibility of innovation ever. And We'd be stuck with the Kontakt monopoly forever.

True there's a lot of functionality in Kontakt that will be hard for Spitfire to catch up with. But at the same time Kontak's core audience isn't high end orchestral libraries.

So think about this in the context of innovation of high end sample libraries, say in the next 5 -10 year. What's most likely to serve the cause of significant innovation in deeply sampled orchestral sampling, Native instruments, or a collaboration of Spitfire with proprietary sample technology from Hans Zimmer?

Now, I certainly wouldn't rule out Kontakt, NI has done amazing work in the past. But at he same time, most of their customers are making electronic music (I still remember being burned by NI Kore, when they decided to put their support behind Maschine instead). 

And I'm not sure how much those investors who put massive capital into NI recently care about us. And so far as I can see (though I'd happily be proven wrong) there's not much of the innovation in Kontakt 6 that's specifically geared towards better orchestral libraries.

Spitfire + Hans' sampling developing next generation technology though, it's quite an interesting thing to imagine where this might go on the timescale of 5 - 10 years.


(Not that I'm happy with the price increase for the evos mind you, which is a drag, but I love Oliver's new In action).


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## luke_7 (Mar 8, 2019)

I love Spitfire Audio with all my heart! But this new audio player is absolutely a waste of time to work with. Bad position of mic faders ( it must be on one page ! ). Bad idea with scrolling between presets ( it must be on one big page like in Omnisphere ! ). I would love to have multi-timbral plus purge all samples on one button. 

I have HZ strings and EW choir and I barely use them cause I don't have time to manage this absolute waste of space. 

Once again and to be clear I love Spitfire Audio ! and I hope this lovely team will do something about those inconveniences.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 8, 2019)

I don't have the least problem with Kontakt. Was there even a beta for Spitfire thing? It seems like they're dropping in this player in kind of an abrupt way (I know, I know, there were obviously foreshadows...)


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## jtnyc (Mar 8, 2019)

ism said:


> or a collaboration of Spitfire with proprietary sample technology from Hans Zimmer?



What exactly is this technology your referring to here? Just curious


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## ism (Mar 8, 2019)

jtnyc said:


> What exactly is this technology your referring to here? Just curious



As I recall the spitfire player itself was based on the proprietary sampling technology that Hans has been developing in house for the last 20 years or so.

Although there’s also the deeper sense that Christian talks about the whole inspiration for the spitfire approach to sampling being inspired by the techniques developed by Hans et al (though he talks about differences if technique in places also).

So the larger point is that under the hood, there would appear to great deal of specifically orchestral sampling technology, presumably closely aligned with a body of knowledge around the techniques of sampling , whatever they may be, upon which the “spitfire sound” is based.

Or at least this is what i’ve been able to piece together of the story.

I wish they’d talk more about it actually - the best source of random details is argueably some of Han’s posts on sampling on vi-c. But I suppose those are trade secrets. And I think it’s also very possibly a conscious design choice not to distract from the function of the instruments with wonky internal details.

Anyway, my point really, is that although it’s a fledgling sample player, it isn’t technology come out of nowhere for a few libraries, and there’s every reason to hope that it might develope to rival, and ever surpass Kontakt - specifically for orchestral libraries. (Though I’m sure for EDM sample libraries Kontakt will remain king.)

Beyond being prettier, I do think the player provides a slightly better ui that Kontakt for the evos, and this is surely a (small) benefit of escaping the constraints of Kontakt. Hopefull more dramatic benefits will appear in future libs.


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## ism (Mar 8, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> I don't have the least problem with Kontakt. Was there even a beta for Spitfire thing? It seems like they're dropping in this player in kind of an abrupt way (I know, I know, there were obviously foreshadows...)



Neither do I - for existing libraries. 

The interesting question is what libraries might be possible in future with this player, that wouldn’t be possible in Kontakt? 

We have two small answers already - 

- the free spitfire labs, for people who don’t own Kontakt, and 
- the single instruments purchase from OT, which would prohibitivle expensive with Kontakt player licenses. 


So we might reasonably expect a non NI sample player to open up new business models.

(But hopefully more innovative than the Evo model of rereleasing with prettier graphics and hikeing the price)


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## thereus (Mar 8, 2019)

The Evos themselves are still very much fun, though, whatever the interface.


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## MisteR (Mar 8, 2019)

Well if you really need a "multi" workaround:

Blue Cat's Patchwork V2 Overview


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 8, 2019)

It would only make sense for me to use the SF player when it well exceeds what Kontakt can do or at least has some features that Kontakt doesn't have that are worth the effort. While chamber string evos were a must buy for me before going forward they are going to have to really be worth the effort of bouncing out audio and importing them into Kontakt.



MisteR said:


> Well if you really need a "multi" workaround:
> 
> Blue Cat's Patchwork V2 Overview



likely to choke your cpu like an mma fighter


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## sostenuto (Mar 8, 2019)

With new Theory of Evolutions Bundle, _and before March 21_, if I purchase (1) Lib @ $249. and then decide to go for Bundle, do I end up at total cost of $599. or penalty for auditioning ??


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## erica-grace (Mar 8, 2019)

MillsMixx said:


> My own ears tell me the _Player version_ seems to be a lot richer and fuller than _Kontakt_ or maybe it's just louder, hard to really tell so far but the comparison I would use is sort of like _Albion One_ vs. _Legacy_ as far as fullness.



It has to just be level, Things sound different, better, when louder.

All the player is doing is playing back the audio files on the hard disk. How could they be different?


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## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2019)

I wonder if SA is going to port the other EVO libraries to their Player ?

i.e. I have EVOs 2,3 . EVO2 has been ported, will EVO3 be ported as well to their Player ? EVO 3 is "Strings In Motion' .


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## rrichard63 (Mar 8, 2019)

muziksculp said:


> will EVO3 be ported as well to their Player ? EVO 3 is "Strings In Motion' .


According to Spitfire, "Due to some of the technology needed for https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/pp021-evo-grid-3/ (PP021 Evo Grid 3), we have not released it as a dedicated plugin yet." See

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/info/faq/spitfire-evolutions/


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 8, 2019)

n9n9n9 said:


> I would love this development if the Spitfire plugins supported MPE, polyphonic pressure or per channel CCs. With Kontakt I can use my ROLI to control dynamics per note with pressure, which is brilliant.



Finally got myself a Roli...curious how you are doing this...


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## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2019)

rrichard63 said:


> According to Spitfire, "Due to some of the technology needed for https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/pp021-evo-grid-3/ (PP021 Evo Grid 3), we have not released it as a dedicated plugin yet." See
> 
> https://www.spitfireaudio.com/info/faq/spitfire-evolutions/



Thanks. 

That's interesting. I look forward to EVO Grid3 to be released as SA New Player library.


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## n9n9n9 (Mar 8, 2019)

givemenoughrope said:


> Finally got myself a Roli...curious how you are doing this...



it takes a bit of doing. i use a multi ksp script to map pressure to dynamics then you build a multi with however many instances of the instrument you need for poly (i do 10). set them each to different midi channels starting at 2 and tweak the roli dash a bit. that gets you pressure to dynamics. if you want pitch bend or any other mods you have to modify the ensemble before you save it and load it 10x. once it is set up it is magic.


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## ka00 (Mar 9, 2019)

I like the new housing/design and will admit it sort of tricks my brain into thinking I just bought three new avantgarde sample libraries (bought the originals over a year ago). Reminds me to use them more.

It also makes me hope Grid 3, SSS Evo and LCO Textures will one day get this treatment too. I also am a fan of the reverb in the Spitfire Audio plugin instruments.

Missing NKS light guide for sure though.


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## Alex Niedt (Mar 10, 2019)

ka00 said:


> Missing NKS light guide for sure though.


This. I have every Evo library Spitfire makes, and the light guide is so beneficial when you're mixing stuff up and want to know which articulation styles you're triggering without straining at the screen. Between losing the light guide, slower loading times, no ability to purge, cumbersome navigation, and my general buggy experience with Spitfire plug-ins, I'll be uninstalling these and going back to Kontakt/Komplete Kontrol.


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## StillLife (Mar 10, 2019)

Alex Niedt said:


> This. I have every Evo library Spitfire makes, and the light guide is so beneficial when you're mixing stuff up and want to know which articulation styles you're triggering without straining at the screen. Between losing the light guide, slower loading times, no ability to purge, cumbersome navigation, and my general buggy experience with Spitfire plug-ins, I'll be uninstalling these and going back to Kontakt/Komplete Kontrol.


Exactly. The light guide was made for libraries like this.


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## Andreas Moisa (Mar 10, 2019)

Please don't leave Kontakt. It just works (from a user's point of view)


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## jbuhler (Mar 10, 2019)

Does anyone know why the SF player doesn't (or can't) use the light guide when it maps the knobs into several pages in the KK software?


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 10, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Does anyone know why the SF player doesn't (or can't) use the light guide when it maps the knobs into several pages in the KK software?



I suspect only NI software can do that...


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 10, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Does anyone know why the SF player doesn't (or can't) use the light guide when it maps the knobs into several pages in the KK software?


Could be the light guide is an NKS thing, whereas the knobs simply map to the first published host automation parameters of the plugin. Similar to how smart controls work in Logic. In otherwords, it might not be a specific feature design by Spitfire. It's something that "comes for free."


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## rrichard63 (Mar 10, 2019)

ka00 said:


> as SA keeps developing their player in general, there’s always a chance they’ll add functionality you might be missing at a later date.


To the extent that this is true, Spitfire would be wise to talk to us about it.


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## benmrx (Mar 10, 2019)

I’m guesssing the lack of a new EVO3 is because they still need to work on host/bpm sync for their new player.


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## Lee Blaske (Mar 10, 2019)

n9n9n9 said:


> So... they are keeping the NI tax they were paying AND charging 50 more... AND have cut the utility of the library by locking it into their proprietary player? I’m just not sure what to say. I own all the evos and will be backing up my hard drives tonight.
> 
> The reason why I am saying negative things about this change is that it is a negative change. Spitfire is not listening to or advocating for their customers. I may be wrong but I don’t think anyone wants this: does anyone here prefer the Spitfire player plugin over Kontakt? I think Zimmer Strings and Whitacre are both worse for being non-Kontakt. I sincerely wish Spitfire would rethink this decision.



I like Kontakt instruments, but I thoroughly understand why Spitfire wants to do this. Spitfire is now a large company with many creative employees, keeping a lot of other creators and performers around the world employed, and new, ground-breaking products keep flowing. They are now at the size where having complete control (and not Komplete Kontrol  ) of their ecosystem is important to their security and survival. They won't have to petition NI for anything they think they need in Kontakt. They won't be blindsided if NI raises rates, or changes their CP policies. Plus, I expect SA will also be releasing other non-Kontakt products (i.e. more things like Phobos). Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to see them release hardware Eurorack modules. Keep in mind that NI is also an aggressive content creator (with a lot of good products), which means SA and NI are competitors. Things seem to be going okay up to now, but for SA, why risk it? Nothing stays the same.

I wouldn't consider the SA player to be a done deal. They'll undoubtedly be adding to it. There are things I like about Kontakt, but the SA player is pretty elegant.

With regard to NKS, I kind of like it. I've got an NI S88 Mk2 as the centerpiece for my set-up. I'll have to admit, though, that a lot of the time when an NKS version of a library is available to me, I still just go with the Kontakt version. Just seems faster, unless it's a situation where I specifically think I'm going to want more control. Supposedly, using KK is less processor efficient, too. Also, all the control on the S88 Mk2 is very nice, but seriously, the keyboard action is not that great. So, that's a real limitation. I'd like to at least see it be as good as a Korg Kronos, or Yamaha Motif, but it's not even close. My S88 Mk2 sits in front of me, but I have a Kawai VPCI immediately to my left, in case I need something that feels good.

The SA library manager works really well for me. I like using it, and I like the way things are organized, and updates are handled. I like SA's approach to copy protection, too. We don't have to pay any yearly fees to make sure our licenses are secure, and there's no dongle. And, I don't have to worry about keeping my own physical back-up of any of my SA libraries. If lightning hits my house and it goes up in flames, my purchased content is safe.

Personally, I'm willing to just stand back and let Spitfire continue on the path they're on. I think it's productive for us to ask for changes in their plug-ins, but asking them to abandon writing their own software is pointless. They're pretty bright over there, and the company is run by musicians who roll up their sleeves and actually use the products themselves. Of all the major players currently in this market, I think Spitfire is the least likely to do something stupid. If there is any stumble, it won't go uncorrected for long.


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## Lee Blaske (Mar 10, 2019)

BTW, with regard to SA's software, I would not at all be surprised if there's a grand, master plan in place, and that at the moment, we're only seeing the tip of it.

Being able to sit down with a fresh sheet of paper, and design a plug-in from the ground up in 2018 (or whenever SA first started working on it) has a LOT of advantages. Kontakt is now hauling around decades of legacy. Having something be a standard is very nice, but it really restricts things, too. You can't make rapid change, because you don't want to make a whole universe of 3rd party libraries not work anymore. And for me, when I click on the little wrench in the Kontakt plug-in, it looks like I've been transported back to the nineties.

I'm looking at SA as kind of being the same situation that Dorico is in (I've switched over to Dorico for all my copying, FWIW). Daniel Spreadbury got to sit down and design a new notation application from the ground up. There are enormous advantages to not having to drag along old code. Dorico was kind of basic when it first hit the market, and lacked things. But as they've kept adding things, everything has been executed more brilliantly than anything else currently out there. When a software design project is well funded, amazing things can happen. Going back and really bringing a legacy product up to date really requires an enormous amount of funding (Apple's Logic Pro X is an example of this going right).


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## Zero&One (Mar 10, 2019)

I hope they keep this player to what I feel are their auxiliary products. Having another format/player to faff on with and potential issues isn't what I want or need. Just seems they've slapped out a premium priced product with reduced functionality without even consulting their users. 
Thankfully there's plenty other products on the market, so if they decide this is the way to go I know which way I'll go also. They've saved me a few hundred £'s with this latest move


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## wilifordmusic (Mar 10, 2019)

Just a thought, by using their own player system this does open the door for them to do individual instrument or mic options for purchase just like the free LABS are now. 
Isn't this what you guys want?


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## jbuhler (Mar 10, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Could be the light guide is an NKS thing, whereas the knobs simply map to the first published host automation parameters of the plugin. Similar to how smart controls work in Logic. In otherwords, it might not be a specific feature design by Spitfire. It's something that "comes for free."


Well, it maps quite thoroughly, 5 pages of knobs or the Eric Whitacre Choir, with parameter names and everything, so still quite useful for finding your way around an instrument when you are learning it. But it's also true that all of the non-NI plugins do that, and quickly browsing I found one that goes 16 pages in. 

Still, it's also possible to be NKS and not NI, as the Arturia synths are, and some of the Arturia synths change the color of the light guide, though there seems to be no particular reason to the lights in that case. "Ah, I guess this synth has a red light guide." Does NI charge a licensing fee for NKS?


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 10, 2019)

Whilst SA don’t owe us anything, it would be nice to hear what the company’s long term plans are for their proprietary player and Kontakt.

There doesn’t seem to be any pattern between releases. Kontakt one day, player the next..


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## Cinebient (Mar 10, 2019)

wilifordmusic said:


> Just a thought, by using their own player system this does open the door for them to do individual instrument or mic options for purchase just like the free LABS are now.
> Isn't this what you guys want?


This would be exact what i want. But i doubt it will happen anytime soon.


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## jbuhler (Mar 10, 2019)

Cinebient said:


> This would be exact what i want. But i doubt it will happen anytime soon.


Yes, I think NI now requires separate licenses for tiered products the way HZ percussion works or the Studio series. That is, as I understand it (but I might have got this wrong), companies can no longer just add mics or patches to an existing license like SF did with the Symphony series last fall. That need for different licenses in turn might be one reason SF doesn’t have an intermediate level set of mics for the Studio series. But for instruments they port to their own player they could offer the option of buying one mic set at a time (I doubt they’d offer that much granularity of choice though as managing the product and coordinating support on all those configurations could be quite challenging.)


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## VinRice (Mar 11, 2019)

Of course there is a long-term plan to all of this - it would be shocking if there wasn't - but a) It would be nice to know what that is (Orchestral Tools' press conference was cringeworthy but at least we know where they are headed now), and b) there seems to be a fundamental error in the design direction of the player - i.e. aesthetics have been given priority over functionality. I know Spitfire are fans of both Steve Jobs and Dieter Rams (as am I) but their central tenet was: 'Good design is not about how it looks but how it works'. The balance between functionally and surface design is way off at this point in time and since the player is likely to be the basis of many products going forward, this is worrying.


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## 667 (Mar 11, 2019)

Alex Niedt said:


> This. I have every Evo library Spitfire makes, and the light guide is so beneficial when you're mixing stuff up and want to know which articulation styles you're triggering without straining at the screen. Between losing the light guide, slower loading times, no ability to purge, cumbersome navigation, and my general buggy experience with Spitfire plug-ins, I'll be uninstalling these and going back to Kontakt/Komplete Kontrol.


Ohhhhhhhhhh man I didn't even realize this. I too live and die by the lightguide for the Evos and would not want to trade that away.


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## thereus (Mar 11, 2019)

VinRice said:


> Of course there is a long-term plan to all of this - it would be shocking if there wasn't - but a) It would be nice to know what that is (Orchestral Tools' press conference was cringeworthy but at least we know where they are headed now), and b) there seems to be a fundamental error in the design direction of the player - i.e. aesthetics have been given priority over functionality. I know Spitfire are fans of both Steve Jobs and Dieter Rams (as am I) but their central tenet was: 'Good design is not about how it looks but how it works'. The balance between functionally and surface design is way off at this point in time and since the player is likely to be the basis of many products going forward, this is worrying.



Design is one thing. I’m not really that fussed as long as I can find the functionality. Memory and resource management is a much more serious issue to me. If I can run as many instances as I can in Kontakt, I don’t care whether I have to manipulate a big knob or struggle with the spanner.


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## thecomposer10 (Mar 11, 2019)

These are a non-starter for me. The NKS light guide is really essential, I think, and I'm really feeling its absence with the EWC evo plugin. EWC is still a great library, but I would much prefer the evos with a light guide a la the other evo libraries like OACE and LCO Textures.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 11, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Does NI charge a licensing fee for NKS?



No.



Lee Blaske said:


> Kontakt is now hauling around decades of legacy.



And because of that legacy it's still the most efficient sampler for big libraries out there.



Lee Blaske said:


> I think Spitfire is the least likely to do something stupid.



They already did that with the UI/UX design of their sampler which is obviously created to be operated by touch rather than mouse (which is a given, considering the Ustwo team did UIs for mobile apps and not desktop programs). And how many desktop workstations are using touch proactively? :D Just a daft decision overall, and pretty bad and inefficient UIs.

I love Spitfire as much as the next guy but this is where they missteped severely. OT seemed to have done their UI research a lot better from what I saw at their presentation.


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## ism (Mar 12, 2019)

EvilDragon said:


> And because of that legacy it's still the most efficient sampler for big libraries out there.



Absolutely - Kontakt indisputably remains state of the art. But the issue with legacy code though, is how difficult and expensive it can make innovations going forward. Again, I would not rule out NI as a the next great innovator (as well as the current great innovator). But the absence of legacy code is an advantage going forward, in innovation, even if it’s also a massive disadvantage for would be competitors who need to catch up with existing Kontakt functionality. 

Similarly, in that Kontakt needs to be optimized, backwards compatibility etc with libraries across a large spectrum, the ability of a legacy-unencumbered code base to focus on specifically orchestral sampling is, potentially, another advantage.






EvilDragon said:


> Ustwo team did UIs for mobile apps and not desktop programs)



I get this sense also - that it’s bringing a web or maybe app design aesthetic to a desktop space. It not that’s the extra prettyness isn’t nice, but it does seem to blatantly sacrifice efficient use of real estate in favour of prettiness,negative space, and other pretty concepts in web design that don’t really feel I care about in my sample libraries. 

Conversely though, the rules of design for medium of the desktop that run through Kontakt, feel at times a bit antiquated. The 90s style fonts, for instance, are not there because they benefit users, but because the design decisions - seemingly haven’t been revisited since then.

And in general, I think it’s worth considering how the design language of the ‘desktop app’ medium works - it works well because most of us here are comfortable it. But not necessarily because it’s the best possible design language for the medium give the available technology and the context of users in 2019.

I think it’s interesting to imagine a world where we didn’t have these design tropes leftover from an era when monitors were smaller , second screens were rare, graphics rendering was a significant percent of your processing power, composers who dabbled in midi were techies, and new users weren’t coming from having been immersed in the world of websites and iPad apps from birth. 

If designers were to create the world of vst ux from scratch today, I doubt it would look very much like Kontakt. We’re already seeing the world of the desktop blurring with, and in some cases deferring to the web app. I haven’t used a desktop email app for years, for instance. Or consider the Noiiz plugin, which is basically their website implemented as a vst. And in not too many years from now, not too many composers even remember how amazing Kontakt was in 2005.

So I’m not saying I love all the design decisions in the Spitfire plugin, but I think it’s good that they’re willing to challenge the conventional language of desktop vst ux. (Not that a ‘power user’ layout with more aggressively efficient use of real estate wouldn’t be welcome).


There’s another dimension to this also, that Christian touches on in one of his rants. 

Implicit in the design language of Kontakt UX, is the notion that’s it’s being used by a technologist.

In 2005, for a composer to use Kontakt, they would have to at least in part put on a ‘technologyist’ hat. In the same way that for my mother to figure out how to send an email c.1998 would have required something of a deep dive into computers and technology. Whereas today, sending an email on you iPad is more like phone call - ie something that doesn’t require you do put on a technologist hat to accomplish the technical task.

It’s most obvious in the Spitfire Labs player. As an extreme example, I’ve been encouraging a friend - who is *not* a technologist and who would *not* enjoy messing about with Kontakt, to maybe have a go at some choral work with the labs choir. She’s also recovering from an injury that appears to have affected her ability to sing, so the ability to get into writing for choir without having to putting on a technologist hat (or buy Kontakt) is significant. 

A less extreme example is Christian’s example of a (female) composer friend of his that responded to the labs player design with (roughly) “thank God, a plugin that doesn’t look like a space ship”. 

Which does tend to affirm that stated premise that the ux choices are about being more inclusive. I’m not sure quite how strong the gender dimension of this is (in that plenty of women have been flying actual spaceships, winning Nobel prizes and so on for very long time). But i think it’s certainly true the the conventional language of desktop vst ux quite blatantly asks (intpellateatively, if anyone’s interested in the French philosophy of it) the user to put on a technologist hat of one sort or another.


Of course, putting on a technologist, is something most of us here on vi-c are perfectly comfortable with (more or less by definition). But with sample libraries moving from being a specialist technology used to mock up compositions, to an increasingly everyday medium of composition, the less the technology asks composers to take off their composer’s hat and put on a technologist’s hat then the bigger the party. 

Which is about the interaction of the social location of the user with the technology, via the design langue, and the demands that design language assumes it is reasonably to make of the user. 

So while I absolutely agree with your specific critique of the Spitfire ux choices, I think there’s a more interesting process in the evolution of the design language itself, inherently linked to the changing social context of future composers (which, meaning no offence to the spectrum of our good slelves here on vi-c, I do hopefully will continue to broader).

That said - here’s my proposal for a trope in the design language of this brave new world of inclusive vst ux:

“The Power User Button”:

A button ( found in a uniform location in all Inclusive Vst Ux apps) that provides an alternately layout of the same functionality, but aggressively optimizing for efficient use of real estate over the other ux considerations.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 12, 2019)

ism said:


> blatantly sacrifice efficient use of real estate in favour of prettiness,negative space, and other pretty concepts



The thing is, those interfaces aren't pretty, and that's not negative space, that's unused space for no good reason. A plugin doesn't have to look like a spaceship, but it also shouldn't have ridiculous amounts of practically unused space.



ism said:


> Or consider the Noiiz plugin, which is basically their website implemented as a vst.



HORRIBLE. Also Positive Grid BIAS - whole GUI is a rendered web page. HORRIBLE, sluggish performance, just a ridiculous idea to do.



ism said:


> I think there’s a more interesting process in the evolution of the design language itself,



You mean deevolution


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 12, 2019)

I like the new player even less the more I deal with. Thank God the old Kontakt libraries are fine.

IMO this new player was unleashed WAAAY too fast. I understand that to a degree SA are concerned with being cutting edge, solid state...instead, this is a big step backward imo.

I'm still astonished there wasn't more beta-testing. Really bad idea from a developer who usually doesn't have many of those.


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## ism (Mar 12, 2019)

EvilDragon said:


> The thing is, those interfaces aren't pretty, and that's not negative space, that's unused space for no good reason. :D
> 
> 
> 
> HORRIBLE. Also Positive Grid BIAS - whole GUI is a rendered web page. HORRIBLE, sluggish performance, just a ridiculous idea to do.




I can agree with you that it doesn’t appear that as ‘negative space’ it’s doing anything useful.

But it’s still negative space, and ‘useful’ here encodes a value judgement, especially for people like ourselves who are comfortable being ‘close to the metal’ - ie deeply immersed in underlying mental models of the technology that make this kind of ‘decluttering’ / ‘not a spaceship’ design effect unnecessary at best, and kind of irritating on balance. (Personally, I hope the ‘One Big Button’ trope is just a passing Ux fad and that it will soon go out of style to take its rightful place in the dustbin of history)

And you’ve nailed the trouble with Noiiz. Grid bias is a limitation the the web medium, a serious lack of fluidity arising from the crappyness of the underlying technology of the web. And there a certain school of though in web design that take the often genuinely very good design work in making the best of a bad situation with these limitations, but then celebrates it as if this is the best way do design in the first place, conveniently forgetting that its started as lipstick on a pig, remains lipstick on a pig, and will never be more that lipstick on a pig



That said, this I think the Noiiz app is exciting not for the (kind of painful) ux experience of it’s current form, but for the possibilities that it suggests in bringing these two mediums of web and vst together.

True, noiiz is kind of the worst of both worlds in its initial form, but you don’t expect that first iterations of such new design territory to nail it first iteration. And to a letter extent I also think that these first iterations of spitfire’s player maybe take a little too much on board from the web design sphere.

The point is though, that we now have multiple creative teams working to create new design language(s) that are non longer constrained by the defectors Kontakt monopoly. At the very least, we can hope the competition will ignite some more urgent innovation at NI.


So again, not really disagreeing with you (except that I do think the spitfire plugin is pretty, especially for the new evos, not that I would willingly pay an extra 50 quid for the extra prettyness).

But I also think there a lot of potential for a properly critical response from users to push the process forward, aware of these possibilities (and where the existing designs don’t quite realize them yet). Which maybe means a certain critical distance for the existing design language of Kontakt.


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## ism (Mar 12, 2019)

EvilDragon said:


> You mean deevolution



You can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 12, 2019)

ism said:


> You can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs



Which they should have mixed in and finished cooking in the oven before release in my humble opinion. Because this seems to me only partly-baked.


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## iMovieShout (Mar 12, 2019)

I've just finished downloading the new EVO Grid updates. They sound great, but I really hate this amateur GUI that Spitfire insist of using. Not practical. Just looks like a piece of Tate Modern art with no practical use in a professional's workflow. Thank goodness I still have the old EVO Grids which are more than good enough for our professional workflow. 
Who on earth is insisting Spitfire stick with these awful GUIs should be seriously reprimanded. At least give professionals the choice of the old Kontakt interface (please) or this new GUI.


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## SpitfireSupport (Mar 12, 2019)

I want you all to know that we read almost all of the threads about our products with interest at Spitfire and use the feedback in them to inform the decisions we make. Part of the work we did with ustwo was to do user testing and let that inform the design of our user interface, so what you see at the moment was done consciously, in good faith and with our customers' best interests at heart.

We are, as I'm sure you'll all expect, looking to develop the design and functionality of our plugins considerably and your feedback will be a key part of our discussions as we move forward, so thank you for sharing it with us. Ben


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## rrichard63 (Mar 12, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> Thank God the old Kontakt libraries are fine.


Yes, but only for those who bought them before they disappeared. I can recall a previous Spitfire new product announcement when the old product was put on sale for a clearly stated period of time before being discontinued. I wonder how much to read into the fact that they didn't do that with Evo Grid #1, #2 and #4.


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## Geoff Grace (Mar 12, 2019)

ism said:


> That said - here’s my proposal for a trope in the design language of this brave new world of inclusive vst ux:
> 
> “The Power User Button”:
> 
> A button ( found in a uniform location in all Inclusive Vst Ux apps) that provides an alternately layout of the same functionality, but aggressively optimizing for efficient use of real estate over the other ux considerations.


Yes, as Apple similarly implemented with Logic Pro X, this seems a good way to satisfy a broader customer base.

Best,

Geoff


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 12, 2019)

Soooo...how do y'all like the_* libraries themselves*_ as presented (trying to abstract from the ridiculous gui?)..\


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## WindcryMusic (Mar 12, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> Soooo...how do y'all like the_* libraries themselves*_ as presented (trying to abstract from the ridiculous gui?)..\



Angular String Evolutions seems pretty much the same to me when compared to the Kontakt version which I had previously. Somewhat louder by default, but that's neither here nor there. I guess it is nice that the time-stretched "mic positions" are more accessible now, because I never even touched them before, and they do seem to extend (no pun intended) what the library can do by a fair bit.


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## sostenuto (Mar 12, 2019)

rrichard63 said:


> Yes, but only for those who bought them before they disappeared. I can recall a previous Spitfire new product announcement when the old product was put on sale for a clearly stated period of time before being discontinued. I wonder how much to read into the fact that they didn't do that with Evo Grid #1, #2 and #4.



Amen !! Have been very interested in EVO 4 WW and abruptly blocked from K5 version. 
May jump to OACE and Symphonic Strings EVO(s) or pass completely. 
Notable unsettled now going forward with Studio Orchestra.  What is the plan for these libs going forward ?


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## n9n9n9 (Mar 12, 2019)

HEY. The GUI is not really even the thing here, but let's talk about GUIs first. Spitfire's GUIs are OK, not great, compared to their competitors. GUI is in no way, not any way at all their selling point. Most of their competitors have better GUIs with more innovative features than they do. What makes Spitfire awesome is their samples, their process, their care.

To me, their moving away from Kontakt:

* means you can't load multiple patches in the same instance, tune them up with automation, splits, etc and save that patch and build large complex templates. (which I do a LOT)
* Means you can't run scripts (which I do a LOT)
* Means you can't use micro tuning
* Means you can't hack Spitfire into being MPE (which is my favorite thing to do... it's magic)
* Means you can't ((insert other things that I'm not smart enough to think of)
* Means sample and memory management isn't as good
* Means host automation is not as good.
* Means that you can't go in and hack up your own automation curves, filters, fx, envelopes, etc.
* Means that performance is only going to be as good as the Spitfire coders, who are more than a decade behind and not as well funded as NI.

Solving all these problems is literally years of backlog. No company can prioritize that much backlog: you have to ship new product to keep the revenue stream going. They are simply not going to cover all this ground. Most of these functions are gone from their products for good with this switch.

On the other hand, Kontakt is a truly impressive piece of software. It has amazing effects, modulators, scripting abilities, many people developing it, thousands of people using it and hacking it and it is (most importantly) already done. I'm sure there will be more features, but it is an amazing piece of well crafted code, shipped and in hand.

Spitfire Libraries are (in my mind) "Spitfire Libraries that work with Kontakt"

Without Kontakt these libraries work the way that someone at Spitfire thinks they should work, and are developed as someone at Spitfire thinks the backlog should be ordered. THIS IS A VERY DIFFERENT PRODUCT than "Spitfire Libraries that work with Kontakt."

Listen, I don't want to be a bummer, but I develop large scale software projects for my day job AND I've been a Kontakt user since v1. You can speculate all you want (this is the way to be truly innovative, etc) but that means nothing. Shipping code is all that matters. The questions are what is Spitfires velocity and what are their priorities. Let's take a look: so far as custom coding Spitfire has shipped this player and Phobos, their website and their downloader. The player's feature set has changed very little since launch (they added evos with EWC,) their bug fixes have been slow, their communication has not been to their own standards and they have innovated in no way so far as I can tell. Phobos shipped, is/was OK, has had very few bug fixes, no upgrades, is still incomplete vs their marketing. The downloader and their website are OK. Spitfire is a truly excellent sample library company. They are a fair to not-so-great software development company. They have moved outside of their competency and that is a bad idea.

Unfortunately, this exact thing happens all the time in my industry. People say "well let's just build it ourselves" for whatever reason and then it takes years for someone to realize what a bad idea that was. Usually it doesn't happen to a company that I love and think makes great art. End rant.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 12, 2019)

SF for me is about the sound which basically means Air or something close. I’m not interested in using the new player so if future evos come in the SF player I guess I’ll resample them to be used in Kontakt. And MPE is all of a sudden pretty important if available.


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## ChristopherT (Mar 12, 2019)

I'll keep my Kontakt Evo's, and therefore have multiple libraries in one instance, and extensive under the hood manipulation and editing.

Forwards - not backwards.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 12, 2019)

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## Lee Blaske (Mar 12, 2019)

Geoff Grace said:


> Yes, as Apple similarly implemented with Logic Pro X, this seems a good way to satisfy a broader customer base.



I think a "power user" option is the way to go. As it is, with the current Spitfire plug-in, there are things that are more easy to access than they are in Kontakt. When you click on the spanner in Kontakt, you're suddenly into some pretty deep science (and a UI that's not particularly friendly). I've always been able to do what I've needed to do on that level, but it's not particularly fun. FWIW, I also have a backlog of older Kontakt libraries that are messed up in the current version of Kontakt (and will probably not be fixed).

I've got all the Spitfire EVOs that were ported to the new player. Used one today, for the first time. No problems, and very intuitive. I still have the Kontakt versions to go back to, if I need to. We'll see if I ever do.

I'm thoroughly willing to accept that a number of you folks are power users, doing amazing things that I haven't found the need for, yet. I'm looking forward to seeing the Spitfire plug-in continue to develop, but it's working fine for me, now.

I am attracted to the idea that the content is developed and updated in tandem with the player, under the new system. Hopefully, this creates a situation where things will never be broken. For the same reason, I like that the Mac OS and Logic Pro X are developed together. I like not having big surprises. It's very different from when I used to use PT more, and any new release of Apple hardware and operating systems could generate incompatibility and chaos with Avid hardware and software.


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## Lee Blaske (Mar 12, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> If it ain't broke, don't fix it.



Ha. We'd still be using punch cards, and 64k of memory would be all anyone ever needed.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 12, 2019)

Lee Blaske said:


> Ha. We'd still be using punch cards, and 64k of memory would be all anyone ever needed.



You mean we _*don't*_ still use punch cards and 64k?


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## thereus (Mar 13, 2019)

SpitfireSupport said:


> I want you all to know that we read almost all of the threads about our products with interest at Spitfire and use the feedback in them to inform the decisions we make. Part of the work we did with ustwo was to do user testing and let that inform the design of our user interface, so what you see at the moment was done consciously, in good faith and with our customers' best interests at heart.
> 
> We are, as I'm sure you'll all expect, looking to develop the design and functionality of our plugins considerably and your feedback will be a key part of our discussions as we move forward, so thank you for sharing it with us. Ben



Ben,

What is the plan for memory and resource mangaement?

Are you planning to port all your libraries including the orchestras?

Thanks,

Michael


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## SpitfireSupport (Mar 13, 2019)

thereus said:


> What is the plan for memory and resource mangaement?



We plan to continue to develop our platform and that will naturally include making improvements to memory and resource management where needed and where we can.



thereus said:


> Are you planning to port all your libraries including the orchestras?



I can't answer that question for a couple of reasons - 

1. Plans are not set in stone, especially over the long term and when there's a changing landscape (such as feedback from the community, how your internal testing goes as you develop, what other music technology companies are doing, company finances, product ideas, external influences etc etc)

2. As is the case for almost any technology company on the planet, we have to keep our plans largely to ourselves. We try to be open with our community but if nothing else - if you say you're going to do something, or not do something and that ends up not being true (for the reasons stated in 1.) it comes off very badly.

Ben


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## ccarreira (Mar 13, 2019)

My question is, does the reverb sound the same? The delay? The chorus? And so on.
I think the main issue here is SF wanting to have a better control over the copy protection scheme. Because the Kontakt way is very weak, original evos are not even copy protected, these new ones are. I can.understand SF here.


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## Zero&One (Mar 13, 2019)

I hope they do a site sale soon, so I can buy the remaining libraries I want before they go to this GUI thing.


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## jbuhler (Mar 13, 2019)

SpitfireSupport said:


> We plan to continue to develop our platform and that will naturally include making improvements to memory and resource management where needed and where we can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some things I would like to see going forward: 

a stand-alone player
the ability to create multis in the same instance of the player
more consideration of ergonomics for use of the big knob with a mouse
better thought to what should go on the big knob (reverb? really, you need to dial reverb in on the big knob? that's the best you could come up with?)
A better layout of the mics (all on one page)
A better layout of the key switches (all on one page)
More thought on how to best navigate patches
ability to extend the range of the instruments by stretching the sample range (this may be currently possible but I have not been able to figure out how to do it)
ability to add pitch bend on all patches (this may be currently possible but I have not been able to figure out how to do it)
ability to be able to tune to different (user defined) scales (this may be currently possible but I have not been able to figure out how to do it)
Development of a simplified view and an advanced view, perhaps the latter with some degree of user customization of what options will appear on main page.


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## SpitfireSupport (Mar 13, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Some things I would like to see going forward:
> 
> a stand-alone player
> the ability to create multis in the same instance of the player
> ...



Thanks, very useful. A few points and questions:

3. Can you be more specific? Are you referring to the fact that you need to follow the knob round as opposed to an up/down motion?
4. You don't _have_ to use the big knob for reverb, it is available in the effects section below
7. I'd love to hear your (and others') opinions on this
9. We often don't allow pitch bend in kontakt libraries either since it doesn't play well with natural reverb

Ben


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## jbuhler (Mar 13, 2019)

SpitfireSupport said:


> Thanks, very useful. A few points and questions:
> 
> 3. Can you be more specific? Are you referring to the fact that you need to follow the knob round as opposed to an up/down motion?


I'm not quite sure how it works, but yes, I think so. All I know is that whenever I use it with the mouse, I end up all contorted to get it to go where I want. So of course I end up mapping it to a knob or slider. But there are times when I just want to be able tweak it in the GUI.



> You don't _have_ to use the big knob for reverb, it is available in the effects section below


Yes, I know. But it's such a big knob. And if SF is choosing to assign reverb to it that suggests to me that the instrument doesn't need the big knob. So in those cases the big knob is just a very big piece of GUI junk, taking up way too much space for minimal functionality. So many other things in most instruments could better use that real estate (though I appreciate the tradeoff of standardization).



> 7. I'd love to hear your (and others') opinions on this


me too!



> 9. We often don't allow pitch bend in kontakt libraries either since it doesn't play well with natural reverb


Yes, I know, but I still often implement it in the Kontakt versions of your instruments when the patch isn't locked. It would be nice to give users the option with an explicitly stated caveat that it might not work so well because of the natural reverb.


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## prodigalson (Mar 13, 2019)

SpitfireSupport said:


> Thanks, very useful. A few points and questions:
> 
> 3. Can you be more specific? Are you referring to the fact that you need to follow the knob round as opposed to an up/down motion?
> 4. You don't _have_ to use the big knob for reverb, it is available in the effects section below
> ...



I would also like to add my whole-hearted support for two major improvements:

1) being able to create multis within one instance. (I simply can't implement the player in my template in any meaningful way until this happens).

2) All articulations on one page, all mic positions on one page. The scrolling is death, not least because you just don't ever go for the mic positions or articulations that are 1 or 2 pages deep. 

If just those two things were addressed, I think a lot of people would be a lot of happier with the player. 

Then, less importantly, can you please SWAP the expression and modulation sliders? so modulation is on the left? Am I the only who orders his sliders 1) modulation, 2) expression and gets thrown off when moving the 1st physical slider and seeing the 2nd slider on the GUI move? Especially when there are only abstract symbols to denote what each slider does? Or maybe just allow the user to define what the sliders do like you do with the knob.


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## Zero&One (Mar 13, 2019)

SpitfireSupport said:


> 7. I'd love to hear your (and others') opinions on this



If the legacy products had been made available for even a limited time I probably would have bought a few. I feel (and read) this is an early version of "what's to come" and don't feel comfortable paying premium price for what I feel is beta testing.
Sadly, I'm more interested in hoovering up the current offerings before they go down this route.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 13, 2019)

SpitfireSupport said:


> Thanks, very useful. A few points and questions:
> 
> 3. Can you be more specific? Are you referring to the fact that you need to follow the knob round as opposed to an up/down motion?
> 4. You don't _have_ to use the big knob for reverb, it is available in the effects section below
> ...


Oh no, Ben. What did you just do? Now we know you're listening, you're going to receive a whole bunch of "expert" opinions. 

FWIW, and to stroke my ego, here are a few GUI "easy win/low hanging fruit" improvements:

Replace the icons with text. That small, classy Spitfire font would do nicely.
I like the big knob. It gives the plugin a clear identity. But make it a standard up/down mouse drag.
Have the functions assigned to the "big knob" (like reverb etc) always on display. Have the current function highlighted.
I reckon these would be (comparatively) trivial to do and help massively.



SpitfireSupport said:


> 7. I'd love to hear your (and others') opinions on thisBen



For patch browsing, make the drop down fill the plugin space, like Omnisphere.
And anywhere you can enable keyboard use, please do!! Good luck!


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## jbuhler (Mar 13, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Have the functions assigned to the "big knob" (like reverb etc) always on display. Have the current function highlighted.


I think a simple thing like this might solve part of the "problem" with the big knob, which is that you expect too much from it given its size, and that expectation is compounded when you don't know what the knob does because it's not labeled. 

Given the space available on the GUI, I do think SF might offer the user an option of 2-6 sliders and make all the sliders and the big knob user assignable to whatever parameter the user sees fit (though of course, it could still come in the default format of two sliders and big knob, with the SF assignments). All the sliders and the big knob should also carry labels or at least have the option of carrying labels.


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## SpitfireSupport (Mar 13, 2019)

Great, thanks for everything so far. I am of course interested in hearing more, so please feel free to keep posting on here everyone.

Ben


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## Mornats (Mar 13, 2019)

+1 for replacing the icons with text. I had to watch a 2 min video to find out what the two sliders did when the first labs plugins came out. I understand that the design agency and Spitfire wanted to make the plugins accessible to all, including removing language constraints. Whilst this is actually a very admirable stance and in theory I applaud it, in practice, a label in English would help the majority of users by removing ambiguity. The rest of the language in the plugin is in English - the plugin name and the presets - so it wouldn't be non-inclusive to include an English label.


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## The Darris (Mar 13, 2019)

SpitfireSupport said:


> We plan to continue to develop our platform and that will naturally include making improvements to memory and resource management where needed and where we can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some thoughts I've had about the standalone plugin engine.

1. Ability to Route Microphones to different outputs.
2. If 1 is accomplished: Single Mixing Page where mics can be routed to within the plugin. Sort of like it's own Bus channels. From here, allowing users to route those busses externally to their own DAW channels would give us the ability to work in a 5.1 environment. Libraries like the HZ Strings have so many mics, being able to pre-mix them within the plugin and route them to their own internal bus (ie; Close 1, 2 > Bus 1. Tree 1, 2 > Bus 2, etc. This will allow us to mix all those mics together more efficiently versus having to control 300 mics. 
3. Please get rid of the mic and articulations pages. Everything should just be visible. 
4. Optimize your plugin to work more effectively for mouse users. Right now, this plugin feels more like a phone app where touch screens thrive. Consider adding scroll wheel capabilities on the faders. If you do this, have it be a feature that can be turned on or off. 
5. Please consult accessibility resources to help with your designs. HZ Strings is too dark with very little definition in the font size which is very troublesome for the visual impaired. I have corrected vision and I still struggle with your products. Scaling isn't the issue, it's coloring/lighting of the designs. These issues aren't exclusive to Spitfire as the entire sampling industry is struggling with right now. 

Cheers,

Chris


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## emasters (Mar 13, 2019)

The one enhancement that would be great from my perspective, is Multi's across different instruments that use the Spitfire player. Not having to load individual VST's per Spitfire instrument, but rather one VST player that hosts all Spitfire instruments, would be great. Thanks for listening, Ben.


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## kavinsky (Mar 13, 2019)

Sorry if this was covered already, but is there a way to move the sample start point forward?
If not there would be absolutely no use for these upgrades for me personally,
it’s easy to do in kontakt atm
I’m worried that its more like HZS which is a bit limiting for me


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## benmrx (Mar 13, 2019)

Mornats said:


> +1 for replacing the icons with text. I had to watch a 2 min video to find out what the two sliders did when the first labs plugins came out. I understand that the design agency and Spitfire wanted to make the plugins accessible to all, including removing language constraints. Whilst this is actually a very admirable stance and in theory I applaud it, in practice, a label in English would help the majority of users by removing ambiguity. The rest of the language in the plugin is in English - the plugin name and the presets - so it wouldn't be non-inclusive to include an English label.


This seems to be the current design trend for most software and web sites. Icons, icons, icons, everywhere. I've heard the term 'shadow design' now more than a few times. It's the absolute worst. I get it when it comes to web design where the basic goal is to get people clicking around on your site and keep them there as long as possible. But for software it's a total nightmare. If all the text in the GUI is in english, just stick with that. We should never have to guess what a button/slider does.

All in all, I'm excited that SF is going the route of their own player. It really does open doors to lots of possibilities. However, my personal rule with software (and pretty much anything) is to never buy something based on what it 'might' become, but to make purchases based on how the product stands in it's current state. IMO, the SF player is still missing too many features, and the workflow is too cumbersome to move forward with it at the moment. It really does feel like the aesthetic design of the plugin is _so far tilted_ towards 'fashion over function'. Which was a very odd choice IMO given the nature of the products/libraries, and how different people have their own workflows. 

I don't think anyone would claim that Kontakt is perfect, or that there aren't things we would love to change, but the SF player removes too much functionality at the moment for me personally.

I'm bummed I didn't get EVO 2 when I still could in Kontakt form.

P.S., please, please, *PLEASE* *stop trying to keep us away from using a 'tune' knob*. This is a perfect example of the fact that regardless of how Spitfire thinks we should use their products, we can use them however we want with Kontakt.


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## Mornats (Mar 13, 2019)

benmrx said:


> This seems to be the current design trend for most software and web sites. Icons, icons, icons, everywhere. I've heard the term 'shadow design' now more than a few times. It's the absolute worst. I get it when it comes to web design where the basic goal is to get people clicking around on your site and keep them there as long as possible. But for software it's a total nightmare. If all the text in the GUI is in english, just stick with that. We should never have to guess what a button/slider does.



I'm a User Experience Designer (and only a hobbyist composer) so I do a lot of user testing. One of the things I find is that for an icon to be understood unambiguously it has to be universally used and recognised. Floppy disk icons for save etc. Outside of a fairly small standard set of icons most can be interpreted in different ways and the current context, combined with the context you're used to seeing the icon in, or the context you first encountered it in opens most icons up to misinterpretation. I see this so many times. A short label next to the icon just works in pretty much every scenario.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Mar 13, 2019)

does the spitfire player actually work with the sample set being installed on a single external ssd that is used both on mac and windows? only got the labs to work with mac.


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## SpitfireSupport (Mar 14, 2019)

The Darris said:


> Some thoughts I've had about the standalone plugin engine.
> 
> 1. Ability to Route Microphones to different outputs.
> 2. If 1 is accomplished: Single Mixing Page where mics can be routed to within the plugin. Sort of like it's own Bus channels. From here, allowing users to route those busses externally to their own DAW channels would give us the ability to work in a 5.1 environment. Libraries like the HZ Strings have so many mics, being able to pre-mix them within the plugin and route them to their own internal bus (ie; Close 1, 2 > Bus 1. Tree 1, 2 > Bus 2, etc. This will allow us to mix all those mics together more efficiently versus having to control 300 mics.
> ...



Thanks for this Chris. One note - if you hover over controls with your mouse and scroll, it should move those controls. Contact support if this isn't working for you.


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## n9n9n9 (Mar 14, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Some things I would like to see going forward:ability to add pitch bend on all patches (this may be currently possible but I have not been able to figure out how to do it)




How to enable pitch bend on a Spitfire Kontakt library:

* open lib.
* click the wrench.
* click on button "Group Editor"
* click on red "Edit All Groups" button
* below the list of groups in the area labelled "sources" click on the tab labelled "mod"
* in the popup that appears titled "add modulator..." choose external sources->pitch bend
* pitch bend is now enabled with a +/- 2 semitone range.
* Adjust this with the slider, add lag if you'd like, remap the range and values of the control or... there's a lot you can do here. Inside Kontakt is a lot like a modular synth.

MY POINT BEING that the library working inside the Kontakt allows enormous flexibility. In a proprietary player you get what you get. In this case you don't get to see what pitch bend will do for you. FWIW I find pitch bending *down* only and less than a semitone usually to work quite well. The reverb baked into things does sound weird with pitch bend, but it could be an interesting effect. But pretty much all the libs have a close mic and some libs are dry.

Give me flexibility over simplicity, please. I'm an artist, which means that I prefer to make my own decisions about how to use my tools.


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## jbuhler (Mar 14, 2019)

n9n9n9 said:


> How to enable pitch bend on a Spitfire Kontakt library:
> 
> * open lib.
> * click the wrench.
> ...


Yes, I too do this all the time in Kontakt. When I wrote that I didn’t think you could do it in the Spitfire player but I wasn’t completely sure. Subsequent comments have made it clear the SF player doesn’t currently support pitch bend. I would also like to see the capability in the SF player.


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## n9n9n9 (Mar 14, 2019)

Agree -- was laying that out more as an illustration as to how much flexibility is lost in a proprietary player.

*I continue to hope that Spitfire will reconsider their decision to go to a proprietary instrument.* I wonder if they know that there are people who purchase their libs (in my case all the Albions, all the EVOs, all the Swarms and a half dozen others, along with EWC and HZS) who engage with their products in creative ways that cannot be supported by a proprietary player. I recognize that I am not the "normal" user, but I cannot be alone in finding this development to seemingly mean that I will not longer be able to do what I want to do with this stuff, thus will not be buying their products in the future.

As it is I've been having to resample EWC so that I can use it, which is just silly. I can't get the loop points right, it is enormously labor intensive, etc. If the library were in Kontakt like the Albions I wouldn't need to do any of it.

But I have entered beating a dead horse territory. Spitfire has not responded to the concerns of the members of their user community regarding this issue. Again.


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## benmrx (Mar 14, 2019)

Here's a short video showing a track preset I created using the tune knob in Kontakt to control various patches for creating 'playable' clusters out of standard patches. I use this trick ALL THE TIME. Does it sound absolutely perfect...., maybe not. Does it get the emotion/vibe across when wanting to 'go there'..., IMO, yes.


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## n9n9n9 (Mar 14, 2019)

Here's a peek at what I have been doing with Kontakt, Spitfire libs and my ROLI MPE controller, in an interestingly similar vein to what benmrx is doing. Benmrx! I love these things that you are making and am very inspired by what you showed there, thanks!

Worth noting that these configs are complex and hard to get right. Keeping things in Kontakt also means that you can save these setups so easily and cleanly, you can version them, etc. Breaking things out into the DAW makes that impossible. If I had to build these configs from scratch every time... I just wouldn't do it.


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## idematoa (Mar 19, 2019)

Downloading... Woodwind Evolutions


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## idematoa (Mar 19, 2019)

My first contact with

*Spitfire Audio - Woodwind Evolutions - 01 Preset : A Single Start ** 
* _" A good place to begin, a selection of the calmers evolutions, spread evenly across the reads and wood " _- dixit Spitfire Audio


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## idematoa (Mar 20, 2019)

*01 - Spitfire Audio - Woodwind Evolutions : Shimmering Ensemble
02 - Spitfire Audio - Woodwind Evolutions : Harmonic Woodwinds*
*











*


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## Headlands (Mar 21, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> Soooo...how do y'all like the_* libraries themselves*_ as presented (trying to abstract from the ridiculous gui?)..\



Yes, I would like to hear this as well!


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## Headlands (Mar 21, 2019)

Do their intro prices typically cost more than what they offer at sale prices?


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## Soundhound (Mar 21, 2019)

How does one like a post more than once?



emasters said:


> The one enhancement that would be great from my perspective, is Multi's across different instruments that use the Spitfire player. Not having to load individual VST's per Spitfire instrument, but rather one VST player that hosts all Spitfire instruments, would be great. Thanks for listening, Ben.


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## Soundhound (Mar 21, 2019)

Multiple instruments per track.

Purge unused samples.

Design is post Steve Jobs, pretty but not functional. Just wind back that design clock for better form/function ratio. Which is, neither takes a back seat.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 21, 2019)

Soundhound said:


> How does one like a post more than once?



"Well I don't know, how long is a ball of string?"

-Captain Spaulding


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## Soundhound (Mar 21, 2019)

My question is just, "can you sleep on your stomach with such big buttons on your pajamas?" (15 bonus points for the first to deliver source of reference!)



Parsifal666 said:


> "Well I don't know, how long is a ball of string?"
> 
> -Captain Spaulding


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## jbuhler (Mar 21, 2019)

Headlands said:


> Do their intro prices typically cost more than what they offer at sale prices?


Intro prices at SF are usually 20-25% off. Bundles usually offer about at 20% discount. Their wishlist sales are usually 40% off individual libraries and 30% off bundles.


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## Headlands (Mar 21, 2019)

I've checked the samples out and like what I hear but I'd like to hear from people who also own Tundra and Orchestral Swarm and see if you feel like Evolutions would give me a _lot_ more than what I already have.


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## idematoa (Mar 22, 2019)

With 3 presets of Woodwind Evolutions : https://vi-control.net/community/th...ge-light-and-shadow.80036/page-3#post-4367352


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## idematoa (Mar 23, 2019)

*01 - Spitfire Audio - Woodwind Evolutions - Personal Preset
02 - UVI - BeatBox Anthology 2*
*








*


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## idematoa (Mar 24, 2019)

*Spitfire Audio - Woodwind Evolutions - Personnal Preset*
*





*


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## lp59burst (Mar 24, 2019)

Lee Blaske said:


> Ha. We'd still be using punch cards, and 64k of memory would be all anyone ever needed.


We put a man on the moon with punch cards and 64k...


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## lp59burst (Mar 24, 2019)

Soundhound said:


> My question is just, "can you sleep on your stomach with such big buttons on your pajamas?" (15 bonus points for the first to deliver source of reference!)


Otis P. Driftwood (Groucho Marx) in "A _Night at the Opera_" 1935


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## Soundhound (Mar 25, 2019)

Bonus points logged and available in your account. 15% extra for correct citation format. 




lp59burst said:


> Otis P. Driftwood (Groucho Marx) in "A _Night at the Opera_" 1935


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## idematoa (Mar 30, 2019)

*01 - UVI - KeySuite - Italian F278 - IT Romantic
02 - Spitfire Audio - Woodwind Evolution - Personnal Preset*
*







*


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## idematoa (Apr 8, 2019)

*01 - NI - Reaktor - Mikro Prism
02 - SA - Woodwind Evolutions*


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## Sarah Mancuso (Apr 9, 2019)

These libraries sound as appetizing as ever, though the new plugin is a real shame. I don't understand why most of its screen space is occupied with a giant knob that can't be hidden, or why it's no longer possible to download the Kontakt versions of libraries that have been rereleased like this or the Labs series.

Anyway, which one would you all recommend for someone who's only intending to purchase one of these evolutions libraries? I'm currently leaning toward either Fragile String Evolutions or Olafur Chamber Evolutions, as Fragile seems pretty well-rounded for both delicate and more eerie/unsettling uses, and it seems like either that or Olafur should combine nicely with Chamber Strings (and Olafur for the moment still runs in Kontakt, which is a plus...)


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## ccarreira (Apr 9, 2019)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> These libraries sound as appetizing as ever, though the new plugin is a real shame. I don't understand why most of its screen space is occupied with a giant knob that can't be hidden, or why it's no longer possible to download the Kontakt versions of libraries that have been rereleased like this or the Labs series.
> 
> Anyway, which one would you all recommend for someone who's only intending to purchase one of these evolutions libraries? I'm currently leaning toward either Fragile String Evolutions or Olafur Chamber Evolutions, as Fragile seems pretty well-rounded for both delicate and more eerie/unsettling uses, and it seems like either that or Olafur should combine nicely with Chamber Strings (and Olafur for the moment still runs in Kontakt, which is a plus...)



The first olafur evo, is the best IMHO. Because sound is very raw and textural. However evo 2 (Fragile) is also very beautiful. It depends on the kind of sound you want. Fragile is more smooth and velvet, and beauty. Olafur evo is more raw, tense, and penetrating.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Apr 9, 2019)

ccarreira said:


> The first olafur evo, is the best IMHO.


I'll take that into consideration, thanks! Would you say Olafur Evolutions is more versatile than Olafur Chamber Evolutions for capturing a range of moods?


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## ccarreira (Apr 9, 2019)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> I'll take that into consideration, thanks! Would you say Olafur Evolutions is more versatile than Olafur Chamber Evolutions for capturing a range of moods?



The first is about the material Olafur made with Broadchurch OST, it's more specific, dramatic, tense, and raw. It's crispy.


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## ccarreira (Apr 9, 2019)

For all around maybe Fragile, or the symphonic evolutions.


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## avocado89 (Apr 12, 2019)

Okay. I know this has probably been asked. As someone who has the original 4 evos in kontakt form I hesitate updating and frankly I don't want to waste time downloading and sacrificing my hard drive space for the player version of these. Is there any noticeable difference? I know there are new presets, but anything else? Any difference in play-ability? Sound quality? Overall quality? Just want an answer from someone who has both and was able to compare the two. I basically just want to know if it's pretty much still the same product (s). Thanks in advance!


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## idematoa (May 4, 2019)

*01 - Spitfire Audio - Woodwind Evolutions
02 - Spitfire Audio - Labs - Choir*
*








*


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## idematoa (May 5, 2019)

... Darker ...


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## idematoa (May 7, 2019)

My first contact with this plug-in ... *Spitfire Audio - Fragile String Evolutions*
*





*


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## unclecheeks (May 7, 2019)

From a UI perspective, I have to agree with a lot of the other comments - the design is just... not good. From an aesthetic perspective, the weird color swirling and grid background is pretty distracting and unattractive, kinda makes me feel like I'm making music inside a cage actually. They would've been better off with flat background, with some subtle gradient maybe. From a functional perspective, the one area that you'll interact with the most by far - the grid and sliders - are so so tiny... My hands already ache just looking at them. Why dedicate half the UI to three controls that will most likely be driven by MIDI anyway? 

It's good to know that Spitfire team is at least listening to feedback, hopefully they actually take it on board and make some improvements.


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## geronimo (May 7, 2019)

Except that if they have paid a designer for this, it must be difficult to return to these points.


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## Mornats (May 7, 2019)

geronimo said:


> Except that if they have paid a designer for this, it must be difficult to return to these points.


Any good designer would relish any feedback so they could improve on their designs (my day job is a UX designer).


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## idematoa (May 8, 2019)

*SA - Fragile String Evolutions - Pure Tone 01*
*





*


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## ism (May 8, 2019)

idematoa said:


> *SA - Fragile String Evolutions - Pure Tone 01
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really like this, there's a gorgeous purity to it where you can just really take in the textures.

I like the heavy, reverb but I wonder if the textures might be even more potent with just a little less?


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## idematoa (May 8, 2019)

ism said:


> I really like this, there a gorgeous purity to it where you can just really take in the textures.
> 
> I like the heavy, reverb but I wonder if the textures might be even more potent with just a little less?



Thx 

You're completely right for the reverb, I pushed the button too high !


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## ism (May 8, 2019)

idematoa said:


> Thx
> 
> You're completely right for the reverb, I pushed the button too high !



I'd be interest to hear the dryer version if you'd care to post it. 

(And dammit, now I want this library too).


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## idematoa (May 8, 2019)

ism said:


> I'd be interest to hear the dryer version if you'd care to post it.
> 
> (And dammit, now I want this library too).



My Dryer Version :


NB : I lowered the sustain level


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## ism (May 8, 2019)

I Like this also - and you do get slightly sharper sense of the textures. But - and i’m Kind of surprised by this - comparing them, it hilights how much I love the bloom of the reverb tail on the first version original.

I wonder what it is about the way the texture of the evo interacts with the reverb tail?

Which is interesting, normally I just use the default tree on evos because the sound so good right out of the box. This makes me think it’s worth experimenting more.

now that I think of it, there’s notion effect of balancing definition of a particularly textural timbre with reverb is something I’ve been trying to get my head around with a number of other instruments, LCO for one, where the challenge I that it so dry.

But also in my last silly little noodle with the solo strings, I had been (among other things) working to find a mix that ... had some kind of quality to it, that I think your above example sheds light on. so in this, after an awful lot of messing around, I came up with a mix:



I kept 100% close ~40% tree, and then quite a lot of a Valhalla Room reverb, but without the the early reflections.

Even a small increased to the close mic can overwhelm the gorgeous textures of the close mics. But then even small decreases to the close mics can cause it to loose ...I actually tahat the tree mics are essential for, what I think might be better termed.‘dimension’ or ‘presence’ than the echoey tail I usually think about when I think about douse something in reverb or tree mics. So the breakthrough was putting the big reverb tail back in via Cathedral reverb, sans the early reflections, and with reigned in tree mics, Which I think gives us the best of all worlds - the sharpness of textual definition, the warmth of a big echoey hall, and the presence of whatever it is that the tree mics are doing. (And i’m not really sure what exactly it is the tree mics are doing, but what ever it is, they should keep doing it).

So just speculating here.

Again, lovely track, thanks for posting!


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## idematoa (May 12, 2019)

*01 - SA - Fragile String Evolutions - Pure Tone 01
02 - Arturia - Jup-8 - Machine Lead*
*
*


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## idematoa (Jun 9, 2019)

Buy today : first contact

*Plucked Tension - Angular Strings Evolutions*
*
*


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## idematoa (Jun 10, 2019)

*01 - SA - ASE - A Rather Nice Start
02 - SA - BDT - Ensembles - Viola - Clarinet - Bass Clarinet
03 - SA - SSS - Celli Tremolo
04 - SA - KO - Mimas
05 - NI - Noire Pure _Emotional*


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## idematoa (Jun 16, 2019)

*01 - SA - Woodwind Evolutions - Pulsing Presence
02 - SA - Angular String Evolutions - Subtle Dirt
03 - NI - STRAYLIGHT - Worm Hole - Chapter IV*


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## idematoa (Aug 5, 2019)

==> Angular String Evolutions
*01 - SA - ASE - Moderate Reflex*
*02 - UVI - FALCON - Baby Quassar - Valley Of Deer [Atmospherics Soundtrack - FALCON EXPANSION PACK]
03 - BS - Era 2 - Vocal Codex - Temple Of Silence *
*04 - BS - Era 2 - Dream Guittern

*


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## idematoa (Aug 9, 2019)

100% SA, I really appreciate "Angular String Evo"  

*01 - SA - ASE - Angular Beauty [Grid]
02 - SA - OACE - 3 Chamber - Wow Effect - Sul Tasto Pulse - Sul Tasto Pulse [Tune -12]
03 - SA - LCOT - Ethereal - Cosmic Refraction - Aurora Borealis
04 - SA - HCT - Purity Seal [Grid]*


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## styledelk (Aug 9, 2019)

idematoa said:


> 100% SA, I really appreciate "Angular String Evo"
> 
> *01 - SA - ASE - Angular Beauty [Grid]
> 02 - SA - OACE - 3 Chamber - Wow Effect - Sul Tasto Pulse - Sul Tasto Pulse [Tune -12]
> ...




You may have just sold me on getting the ASE and LCOT.


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## idematoa (Aug 9, 2019)

styledelk said:


> You may have just sold me on getting the ASE and LCOT.



I spent more time setting these VST than to play these few chords of music ... Other times, it's different ... No rule in this matter


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## benatural (Aug 9, 2019)

Just a sidebar conversation to this nice announcement, and certainly not to derail it. I own the first Evo library, and have tried to figure out where to use it in my work and it just hasn't clicked for me. Whenever try to use them I feel they're unpredictable. What do these libraries do best at?


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## idematoa (Aug 21, 2019)

*01 - SA - FSE - Ricochet Flickers
02 - SA - HCT - In The Light [Grid]
03 - SA - Earth eDNA - Slow To Choral MW_Output - Analog Strings - Pluckhairs
04 - SA - ASE - A Good Start *


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## idematoa (Oct 24, 2019)

*01 - Heavyocity - Ascend modern Grand - Muted Upward Momentum Arp*
*02 - SA - Albion One - Whitechapel From Space MW - The very End Of Days MW Panic
03 - SA - ORBIS - Loops Playable - Tiberan Ball 1A - Crunch*
*04 - SA - WE - Ensemble Swamp*
*05 - Sonuscore - The Orchestra Complete - Icy Lake






 *


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## idematoa (Nov 1, 2019)

01 - SA - Woodwind Evolutions - A Simple Start
02 - Sonuscore - Elysion - Felt Piano
03 - Sonuscore - The Orchestra Complete - Flute Staccato - Clarinet Staccato - Violin 1 Staccato - Cello Staccato - Horn Staccato


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## idematoa (Nov 12, 2019)

The 3 Evolutions of Spitfire associated here [Angular String, Fragile String, & Woodwind Evolutions]


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## idematoa (Dec 6, 2019)

*2 Spitfire Evolutions used : SA - Woodwind Evolutions & SA - Fragile String Evolutions :*

*Standing*


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## AdamKmusic (Dec 27, 2019)

Fragile Evolutions worth picking up even if I have OACE?


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## idematoa (Dec 28, 2019)

AdamKmusic said:


> Fragile Evolutions worth picking up even if I have OACE?


 
Complementary ... not good for the budget 

OACE, BDT, WE, ASE & FE are for me the 4 VST that I use frequently.
If I had to own one, it would be BDT.


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## filipjonathan (Oct 23, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Is this the same player used with the HZ strings? If so, is there a purge samples feature? Otherwise it will be useless in larger templates.


Sorry for going all the way back. Did you find out in the end if there's a purge option? And also, is there an option to layer different patches? I'm thinking of the Spitfire Player by the way.


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## jaketanner (Oct 23, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> Sorry for going all the way back. Did you find out in the end if there's a purge option? And also, is there an option to layer different patches? I'm thinking of the Spitfire Player by the way.


No worries...I got BBC Pro...don't think there is a purge option, but I can unload articulations. Haven't had a chance to really dive in yet. Can't layer patches either...not yet.


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## filipjonathan (Oct 23, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> No worries...I got BBC Pro...don't think there is a purge option, but I can unload articulations. Haven't had a chance to really dive in yet. Can't layer patches either...not yet.


Thanks. I'm hesitant to get anything that uses SF player because of these two things which are essential in Kontakt.


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