# What styles of music should a composer know ?



## G.E. (Jun 2, 2014)

Today I had a bad experience when discussing with a potential client.I was showing him some demos and everything was going well until he told me that he wanted a certain style of music.As I've realized that I've never composed in that style before,I politely told him that I can't give him an answer right away and I need a day to figure some things out.
I ended up not taking the job.Sure I could be winging it and study some music in that style, hoping I can recreate it on a deadline.But that wouldn't be fair to him and I would potentially ruin any future chances of working with him if I don't do a good job.

I've decided that I will never let this happen again and next time I will be prepared.
So my question is,what are common styles of music a composer would be asked to deliver ?


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## The Darris (Jun 2, 2014)

This is a slippery slope as you are starting out. Every composer out there has their own style and sound. I can only name a few who can pull off different genres and styles well though. The fact of the matter remains, do you want to be convincing in many styles or do you want to focus on a select few and be amazing at them? A lot of composers might disagree with me when I say, it is in my opinion that a composer can't be amazing at everything, there are just too many styles out there to be well educated on. Sure, a composer can go and study a specific style to help influence their score but really it tuns out being a hybrid of that sound and their typical style meshed together. 

Again, this goes back to the slippery slope. Being well educated in many styles will help you get more work when you are starting out. Once you are established, you will tend to get gigs based on previous work which is what ultimately sets your style in play. Danny Elfman is a great example of this. His early work was a particular sound that not only Burton wanted but on his non Burton films you can listen and say, "That is an Elfman score." 

With that said, I, personally, will stay clear of working on projects that involves writing music I don't like to write (especially if I am good at it). If I do this for the money, I will use a fake name because I have a particular style that I want to write for and I don't want to get pushed into creating music I hate the rest of my life, just because I did it well. 

Finally, to play the devil's advocate, it doesn't hurt to be knowledgeable on different styles of music. It helps you to grow as a composer.

I hope my ramblings are some what helpful.

Cheers,

Chris


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## G.E. (Jun 2, 2014)

Thanks Chris,that definitely makes sense.If it were up to me I would only compose epic Alan Silvestri style music all day,every day, for the rest of my life.But we all know that's not how it goes in the real world.Not that I don't like other music as well but that's the type of thing I would love doing the most.

Of course I want to do what I love mostly, but it would be nice if I could also compose a tango for example,even if I don't usually enjoy listening to that kind of stuff.


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## germancomponist (Jun 2, 2014)

ALL! Yes, no joke!

If you don't know a style say "Yes I know" and take your lesson asap!


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 2, 2014)

Isn't there just one style? Your own?

I have to do some stuff in the vein of instrumental hip hop/rare groove/afrobeat for a current project. Always liked those styles but never actually played or produced anything exactly like that (although similar stuff ages ago). I'm not really shooting for Fela Kuti, Booker T, MMW, RJD2 (except only vaguely) as much as I'm just trying to grapple with the elements of those styles and see what comes out (and it's aint easy at all!!). There are elements of those sounds that I don't like and probably won't even bother with. 

Everyone love EM's spaghetti style but really that came from his producing country albums in his own way. Learn, steal, copy, whatever but it'll probably just sound like you. I dunno...


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## olajideparis (Jun 2, 2014)

the good ones


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## NKM (Jun 2, 2014)

The most called for music for picture is that type that provides a glue but doesn't demand emotional response. 

So as much as people hate it, modern classical that tends to not have a tonal centre will provide a lexicon to do that. 

All music will add to your vocabulary but being anything that people attach the word "epic" to, not thst it had no value, but the odds that someome will call you up and ask you to score their epic picture is probably not going to happen. It is also the easier part because the intended emotional response is simple and people looking at your reel know that. 

The job goes to the person who will finish it and doesn't feel the need to insert their ego into the picture. Everyone has their style. But your dream score and a job , I think you hsve to seperate them. 

The people that are picked on style usually are not looking for scoring jobs. I think a healthy appreciation of your odds and that getting hired is about being dependable and adaptable is probably a good approach. You are doing commercial work. Your artistic goal should be nurtured but a job is a job.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 2, 2014)

The Darris @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> Every composer out there has their own style and sound.
> 
> Chris



Totally not true, only a handful do. The rest are imitators and if you are a musical chameleon, like I am, it behooves you to get familiar with as many styles as you can.

When I worked more as a pianist I would jump at any gig that was a style I was not that familiar with thinking that someday I might need those crayons in my Crayola box.


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## JohnG (Jun 2, 2014)

I try to write what I like, whatever the style. Even if it's an area that, overall, I'm not that interested in, I try to find some part that I like and lean on that. At least if you like what you've done and they hate it, you don't feel like a chump. 

The worst feeling is to pander to the audience and still be rejected. Ouch-y.

If you feel confident in your musicality, Gunther's suggestion is a good one. Take the job and then learn about the genre. Most of them are learnable in a surprisingly short period of time.

The one thing I would suggest not to do, is taking on a project with a type of music that you genuinely hold in contempt. Doesn't have good outcomes.


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## Gabriel2013 (Jun 2, 2014)

germancomponist @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> ALL! Yes, no joke!
> 
> If you don't know a style say "Yes I know" and take your lesson asap!



Exactly.

This happens all the time, but some composers react better than others to the challenge.
I could go on and on with classic examples, but will restrict to Alan Silvestri since some one mention is name here.

His first big gig was all about taking changes like he mention on several interviews.
Next he got his hands on a orchestral score, and that was the first time he wrote for that medium (according to him).

Now probably 80% of composer of that time (before samples libraries) that didn't have experience with a full symphonic orchestra would have pass that, but he din´t and become what we know today.

I actually believe that some of his best work come out of this kind of experience (same as Efman IMHO).


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## germancomponist (Jun 2, 2014)

JohnG @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> The one thing I would suggest not to do, is taking on a project with a type of music that you genuinely hold in contempt. Doesn't have good outcomes.



Absolutely!

I tried this and I have learned to hate this.... . Better never do!!!


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## Uncle Peter (Jun 2, 2014)

Whatever moves you surely.

If someone asked me to compose big band - I'd tell em to eff off with that fookin big band you big ponce.

Donkey


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 2, 2014)

Uncle Peter @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> Whatever moves you surely.
> 
> If someone asked me to compose big band - I'd tell em to eff off with that fookin big band you big ponce.
> 
> Donkey



Man, I hope you're joking.


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## Uncle Peter (Jun 2, 2014)

I amuse myself... 
yes I'm only joking.

In all seriousness - I'd be rubbish at it - so would pass. I've realised what I'm good at and what I'm not. But if you can be a jack of all trades then fair enough. I can't personally.


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## Daniel James (Jun 2, 2014)

I'm gunna go in the group with people like John and Uncle Peter (sounds like a wholesome family xD) and say do what it is you like.

But of course that totally comes down to the personal goals of your career. If you want to earn as much money as possible then of course more styles means you can do more, different gigs. However if you love a particular style then just do that, and become the best at that so that you become the call guy for that type xD

Or of course you can start by figuring out what 'your sound is' everyone has one, and I totally disagree with Jay saying that only a few do (the originals he is talking about just hide their influences really well  ). Your sound is the combination of music you personally love and which you combine together into something you love to create....THEN when you are asked to do big band, take what makes big band, big band....and write it in your own personal style that you love to do (thats what I have done so far and its working ok  ) lol just make sure not to let one influence ring out too clear (and I think this is what Jay really means, when people like Hans so they imitate Hans without mixing it up with other stuff they like)....Remember: Creativity is the art of hiding your influences.

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 2, 2014)

Err...yes and no. Of course everyone has influences but few have a discernible style in enough of their work that people will say, " I think that is so and so's work."

Elfman, Hans, Randy Newman do. JNH and Al Silvestri do not. It doesn't make them less than, just different


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## germancomponist (Jun 2, 2014)

I can tell you one thing: When a client wants this or that, in 99 percent I will make him happy. No question! o-[][]-o


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## Daryl (Jun 2, 2014)

I think that anyone who is any good has parameters of what they do well. With some people those parameters are far apart. With others they are closer together. However, the ones who have lasting careers are usually the ones who can bring something of themselves to whatever they write, and it can be from either group. Then there are the tiny, tiny minority who actually have something original to contribute. they are few and far between, IMO.

So my answer to the OP would be find out what you like and then learn to be very good at it. If you don't like it, don't waste your time.

D


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 2, 2014)

Tough to disagree with that^. 

More practically (and not during a gig), why not just trying to rip something off and when it fails just take it in another direction? Elfman milked his version of Nino Rota for years and took it over the moon. There was a recent Cliff martinez cue where he said he was somewhat consciously "ripping off" two different specific styles and seeing where they meet. I'm trying some stuff during off hours that combines some things that don't exactly go together, no idea what I'll take away from it.


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## pkm (Jun 2, 2014)

As a composer, you should be able to analyze the style of any given genre and be able to replicate it. If you have the luxury of turning down gigs because of the requested style, by all means, make yourself happy and do what you like. But if you want the gig and they ask you to do something you don't know how to do, study up and execute.


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## MichaelL (Jun 2, 2014)

Daniel James @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> I Your sound is the combination of music you personally love and which you combine together into something you love to create....THEN when you are asked to do big band, take what makes big band, big band....and write it in your own personal style that you love to do (thats what I have done so far and its working ok  )
> -DJ




Daniel...I just had a good laugh thinking of you doing epic/hybrid big band! o=< 

Made my night.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jun 2, 2014)

All good advice here. 
The more you know, the stronger you get, and the more gigs you can take on.

As long as your analytical and production skills are up to par, you should be able to take a style you've never done and deliver something convincing.
If you feel that you are not capable of it at this point: time to practice just that.

And I totally agree that you should stay away from genres that you hate.
But being content with one genre only is very limiting to your understanding of the big picture...

Personally, I hate to turn down work and I love challenges.


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## MacQ (Jun 2, 2014)

pkm @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> As a composer, you should be able to analyze the style of any given genre and be able to replicate it. If you have the luxury of turning down gigs because of the requested style, by all means, make yourself happy and do what you like. But if you want the gig and they ask you to do something you don't know how to do, study up and execute.



+100.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 2, 2014)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNel8RwSLyE


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## G.E. (Jun 2, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice guys.I find it hard to come to terms with the fact that I should pick one style and be the go to guy for that,even if it's probably true.I don't think I hate doing any kind of music, except for EDM and trance.That's why I would never be caught dead doing that. :D 
Music is music,right ? At least it should be.As long as you get to put your own spin on it,it should be enjoyable.

I don't really enjoy listening to pop and hip hop in my free time for example(I did when I was a child) but that's what I'm mostly doing these days until I can get into film and game music full time.But it's still fun to do and that's the opportunity available to me at the moment.

I love the epic stuff,but let's be honest.How many Lord of the rings movies will I have the chance to score in my first 5 years as a composer ?


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## Rctec (Jun 2, 2014)

Never be afraid of having a go at any style of music...Because it's FUN! I knew nothing about Japanese music for "Last Samurai', or the blues for "Thelma and Louise". But when a director asks you, it's usually because they see something in you that you've never known about yourself - and they give you an opportunity to discover that. What do I know about swing? But it was fun to have a go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpwFsDGk-2E . It's not art, it's not something that advanced my career...it's put the good-taste barometer way into the red-zone, it's not even something I am particularly proud off or think of as "good" - but it was FUN! - And it was recorded in one take, so it's a mess... 

I always joke about that a well-rounded musical knowledge is just learning the composers who's name start with "B": Beethoven, Bach, Basie, B.B. King, Berlioz, Brahms, Beatles, Black-Eyed Peas, Bartok, Black Sabbath...You get the game


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## lux (Jun 2, 2014)

I personally think it's hard to be convincing on a style if you havent lived that style seriously. Living means buying records, producing albums (or attempt to) and understand the philosophy (and lifestyle) behind it.

So I would focus on styles you have met in your musicians life (or those you're about to). If you happened to play jazz, pop, rock, metal, whatever along with other people then you're on the root to sound indeed convincing on those styles.

Well, thats just my opinion.


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## H.R. (Jun 2, 2014)

An ultimate composer must knows it all but here is a question:

Say, a director demands a modern soundtrack with synths, now the composer is John Williams! What's going to happen next?


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## Rctec (Jun 2, 2014)

H.R., ...listen to "Munich". John Williams and a loop...


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## Jetzer (Jun 2, 2014)

Any good director won't choose him if he want synths 
He has used them, but hardly his thing or strength. But I don't know, maybe I'm contradicting myself. 

To the OP, I would not reject this opportunity. Maybe you are way better at it than you think? It might be fun, challenging & if you do well it might end up in a good relationship for future projects? But I don't know how important or big this opportunity this was for you. 

If you like epic music, maybe you could try to get into games. I think in that area of media music there is a demand for that style at an earlier stage. Even small indie games need that style now and then. Bigger chance to come across that style in early-career games than early-career movies, I think.


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## The Darris (Jun 3, 2014)

Rctec @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> H.R., ...listen to "Munich". John Williams and a loop...



+1


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## re-peat (Jun 3, 2014)

I don’t quite understand how any self-respecting musician can ask this kind of question, almost making it sound like “Teacher, do we have to learn this chapter and this addendum for the exams as well?” I mean, what sort of sad mentality is that, for a musician?
I’d have thought that, if you have music running through your veins, you’d be eager and keen to learn and explore as much music, and styles of music, as time and opportunities allow you to. And definitely grab every chance to discover something new.

If they ask me to come up with something I haven’t done before, I jump on it, all giddy and excited, and ready and overjoyed to face a new challenge. 
Sure, some styles and genres suit me better than others, but I’ve done ― and with equal pleasure and conviction ― death metal, Scottish folk, hard-driving techno, children’s tunes, jazz, easy-listening, funk, 19th century romanticism, Bonzo Dog Band-like absurdities, 20th century Prokofiev-esque complexity, blues, circus music, 1930’s-like Berlin cabaret, rockabilly, ambient synth-scapes, 80’s new wave, ragtime, alternative rock, extreme avant-garde, neo-baroque, early swing (and late swing as well, come to think of it), psychedelia, abstract electro, North-African ethnic stuff, cheesy carnival-music, … you name it. And that’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.
I don’t claim to be equally convincing in all these styles, but I make it my goal, and it's point of pride, to be at least as convincing as is expected and required, and hopefully, a bit more than that. 

The question “Should I know this too?” never-never-ever has entered my head during any of this. The day I start asking that sort of questions, is the day I know I better start wrapping things up and do something else.

_


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## Markus S (Jun 3, 2014)

Well, you cannot be prepared for everything, it's just not possible. Rather than knowing every music style, the job is more : Being able to adapt quickly, learn new stuff, be curious, and adapt your personality to different environments. Never want this to happen again? Next time, tell them you'll deliver and you'll see you find a way.


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## AlexandreSafi (Jun 3, 2014)

*Short answer:* (And i completely agree with Rctec) - Trust the music that you have absorbed in yourself up until now, you are 21, you are eloquent, intelligent and seem generally very curious about diverse topics, so i'm very sure you do have a lot for yourself already. Jump in. When it's about survival and offering the best of what you have to others you'll surprise yourself doing things you thought you weren't capable of, yes even faking jazz or americana music, to some degree...

*Other "short" answer:* this one is more a personal philosophy-- it's about how much are you inspired by the composers you are inspired by, film & classical or others, if you really want to see the most skilled G.E. you'll ever see in 20 years, and not miss out on that when you get there and look back, you'll want to learn them all, as much as possible, taking your time, allowing patiently to see yourself and your craft grow, postponing the professional warzone further away, and ... exploring them like anthropology, even if they don't necessarily fit your preconceptions of good and bad (musically that is)... 

Good luck G.E.
Let us know!


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## Stephen Rees (Jun 3, 2014)

Just another point of view….

Do you want to be a musical jack-of-all-trades or a master of one?

They are both perfectly valid choices dependent on your own goals.


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## Ozymandias (Jun 3, 2014)

H.R. @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> An ultimate composer must knows it all but here is a question:
> 
> Say, a director demands a modern soundtrack with synths, now the composer is John Williams! What's going to happen next?



Unless the director was completely mad, surely JW wouldn't get hired for that type of gig in the first place?

They'd hire Paul Leonard-Morgan or Junkie XL or Jon Hopkins or whomever.


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## G.E. (Jun 3, 2014)

Thank you re-peat for delivering your daily dose of superiority and vitriol.Very helpful as always.



> Never be afraid of having a go at any style of music...Because it's FUN! I knew nothing about Japanese music for "Last Samurai', or the blues for "Thelma and Louise". But when a director asks you, it's usually because they see something in you that you've never known about yourself - and they give you an opportunity to discover that. What do I know about swing? But it was fun to have a go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpwFsDGk-2E . It's not art, it's not something that advanced my career...it's put the good-taste barometer way into the red-zone, it's not even something I am particularly proud off or think of as "good" - but it was FUN! - And it was recorded in one take, so it's a mess...
> 
> I always joke about that a well-rounded musical knowledge is just learning the composers who's name start with "B": Beethoven, Bach, Basie, B.B. King, Berlioz, Brahms, Beatles, Black-Eyed Peas, Bartok, Black Sabbath...You get the game Smile



Well there's no point in denying the lack of confidence in my musical abilities.I consider myself a novice and I'm 100% sure that 5 years from now,with more experience under my belt, I would see a challenge as this from a different perspective.Maybe I'm a coward but at this time it doesn't feel ethical for me to venture out and experiment at the expense of a client.



> Do you want to be a musical jack-of-all-trades or a master of one?


A jack of all trades AND a master of one. :D


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## re-peat (Jun 3, 2014)

G.E. @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Thank you re-peat for delivering your daily dose of superiority and vitriol.Very helpful as always.


Always endeavouring to please, G.E., always endeavouring to please.

But seriously, what do you expect with that type of question? "What sort of music styles do I need to know about?" I mean ... It's like those people who ask: "Do I need to know about orchestration?" or "Do I need to know about music theory?", "Do I need to know about contrapunt?", etc. .... Everytime I read questions like that — and they seem to be popping up far more frequently then they used to, alas — I can' thelp but wonder: aren't you guys hungry and curious and passionate enough to want to learn about all that yourself? Even without needing any outside stimulus of some job that needs to be done? Aren't you drawn to all this fascinating knowledge like a moth is drawn to light? 

See, that is what I don't understand. That subjects like these need to be discussed in the first place.

_


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## Stephen Rees (Jun 3, 2014)

G.E. @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> A jack of all trades AND a master of one. :D



I know, but there is only so much time


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## Saxer (Jun 3, 2014)

i did a lot of style hopping for commercial spots over decades. it's always fun to discover new styles. the best way to learn about styles is getting such a job done.

and if you need help don't be afraid to ask other composers. collaboration is always a good thing!


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## G.E. (Jun 3, 2014)

> But seriously, what do you expect with that type of question? "What sort of music styles do I need to know about?" I mean ... It's like those people who ask: "Do I need to know about orchestration?" or "Do I need to know about music theory?", "Do I need to know about contrapunt?", etc. .... Everytime I read questions like that — and they seem to be popping up far more frequently then they used to, alas —


I can see where you're coming from but unfortunately,you don't see where I'm coming from with my question.In every post you act like you were never once inexperienced and looking for guidance.I can see that the presence of lesser musicians like myself on this forum annoys you but that's too bad,because I'm not going anywhere.But to answer your first question.What do I expect with this type of question ? Well,I expect either some helpful advice or to be ignored if you think the question is dumb.If Mr. Zimmer was kind enough to take time out of his busy day to offer some advice,the least you can do is ignore me.



> I can' thelp but wonder: aren't you guys hungry and curious and passionate enough to want to learn about all that yourself? Even without needing any outside stimulus of some job that needs to be done? Aren't you drawn to all this fascinating knowledge like a moth is drawn to light?


I'm not even in it for the money.If I could,I would compose music for free.But I learned the hard way that I can't be the composer I want to be and work an unrelated job at the same time.


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## re-peat (Jun 3, 2014)

G.E. @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> (...) you don't see where I'm coming from with my question (...)


No, that's true, I don't. Because I have never pondered such questions myself, not now and not when I was starting out and was completely inexperienced myself (which I feel I still am in many respects). I simply devoured anything I could lay my hands on, and still do, never ever questioning whether it is 'useful' or not.
This is not about me feeling all superior or anything, god no, this is simply me not understanding why you simply aren't diving into the Sea Of Music with all that you've got. And why you would ever want to limit your knowlegde of music by the sorts of jobs you hope or are asked to do. I really don't get that.

And I'm not annoyed by lesser musicians, I'd do anything I can to help them, but I do have a bit of problem with lazy musicians. Not daring to suggest that you are one, but questions like the one that started this thread do give cause for mild worrying, I feel.

So, even if my first reply may have struck you as you unhelpful, which is regrettable, it was, in my unpleasant way, intended as a sort of encouragement. An encouragement to put on your swimming trunks, definitely dispense with the swimming tyre or belt -- cause you don't wanna be restricted in any way --, and take the plunge.

_


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## G.E. (Jun 3, 2014)

> No, That's true, I don't. Because I have never pondered such questions myself, not now and not when I was starting out and completely inexperienced (which I feel I still am in many respects). I simply devoured anything I could lay my hands on, and still do, never ever questioning whether it is 'useful' or not.
> This is not about me feeling all superior or anything, god no, this is simply me not understanding why you simply aren't diving into the Sea Of Music with all that you've got. And why you would ever want to limit your knowlegde of music by the sorts of jobs you hope or are asked to do. I really don't get that.
> And I'm not annoyed by lesser musicians, I'd do anything I can to help them, but I do have a bit of problem with lazy musicians. Not daring to suggest that you are one, but questions like the one that started this thread do give cause for mild worrying, I feel.
> 
> So, even if my first reply may have struck you as you unhelpful, which is regrettable, it was, in my unpleasant way, intended as a sort of encouragement. An encouragement to put on your swimming trunks, definitely dispense with the swimming tyre or belt -- cause you don't wanna be restricted in any way --, and take the plunge.


One question doesn't define a person.Who says I'm not diving into "the sea of music" ? I don't want to limit my knowledge at all. I just want to start with what seems like the most practical for me in the near future and go from there.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 3, 2014)

Rctec @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> I knew nothing about Japanese music for "Last Samurai', or the blues for "Thelma and Louise". But when a director asks you, it's usually because they see something in you that you've never known about yourself - and they give you an opportunity to discover that.



Thelma and Louise is one of my all time favourite movies (what a SCRIPT! From a first-timer!) The music played such and important part. But your words above seem very well chosen - Ridley Scott didn't demand an authentic blues score, he let you use those influences and do your thing with it. The result was fantastic (hope you still like it, 20 years on... I do....)

[GENERAL POINTS] I can definitely see where the OP is coming from though. If there isn't much time and money and the production has a fixed view on what they want and is just after a composer as a gun for hire - and the style is WELL out of your wheelhouse - it may not be the best move to jump on to that ship.

John Powell had good advice (that I haven't heeded enough) - when you have nothing else on, pick a style you've never done before and write something in a day. Same the next day etc. Then you can fail and learn in private, stress free.

In theory we'd all like to do everything (except stuff we hate I guess). But the real world does get in the way. Maybe you can score 10 minutes a day in one style, but another might be 30 seconds a day - it might not always be smart to jump at literally every opportunity.


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## AC986 (Jun 3, 2014)

Uncle Peter @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> Whatever moves you surely.
> 
> If someone asked me to compose big band - I'd tell em to eff off with that fookin big band you big ponce.
> 
> Donkey



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

My new hero for this week.


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## MichaelL (Jun 3, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> G.E. @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > A jack of all trades AND a master of one. :D
> ...



You need to be able to venture outside your comfort zone. If you limit yourself to "one" you may limit your time, as well. Styles and tastes change. Be flexible.


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## AC986 (Jun 3, 2014)

G.E. @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> So my question is,what are common styles of music a composer would be asked to deliver ?



Can you do 18th century music _'in the style of'_ Mozart but somehow make it sound like Black Sabbath circa. 1970 _without_ losing that late baroque flavour?

BTW Hans couldn't do Black Sabbath if his life depended on it. o=<

Edit: I've just shampooed the carpets and I think the fumes have done me in.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

Rctec @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> Never be afraid of having a go at any style of music...Because it's FUN! I knew nothing about Japanese music for "Last Samurai', or the blues for "Thelma and Louise". But when a director asks you, it's usually because they see something in you that you've never known about yourself - and they give you an opportunity to discover that. What do I know about swing? But it was fun to have a go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpwFsDGk-2E . It's not art, it's not something that advanced my career...it's put the good-taste barometer way into the red-zone, it's not even something I am particularly proud off or think of as "good" - but it was FUN! - And it was recorded in one take, so it's a mess...
> 
> I always joke about that a well-rounded musical knowledge is just learning the composers who's name start with "B": Beethoven, Bach, Basie, B.B. King, Berlioz, Brahms, Beatles, Black-Eyed Peas, Bartok, Black Sabbath...You get the game



Hans, you left out Bacharach!

And this to me punctuates the big difference between the mindset of a good film composer and a good concert hall composer. Concert hall composers think "I have this sound in my head that I must get out into the world." Film composers, think, "Wow I have been asked to do a different style of music then I have done What FUN!"


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Just another point of view….
> 
> Do you want to be a musical jack-of-all-trades or a master of one?
> 
> They are both perfectly valid choices dependent on your own goals.



They are perfectly valid choices for a musician and a concert hall composer. The second choice is not really doable for a film composer if they want to do more than just an occasional film.

Ry Cooder is a good example. He is brilliant, does what he does, and has done a few good scores, but only a handful whose total would add up to a bad few years for Thomas Newman.


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## dgburns (Jun 3, 2014)

re-peat @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> I don’t quite understand how any self-respecting musician can ask this kind of question, almost making it sound like “Teacher, do we have to learn this chapter and this addendum for the exams as well?” I mean, what sort of sad mentality is that, for a musician?
> I’d have thought that, if you have music running through your veins, you’d be eager and keen to learn and explore as much music, and styles of music, as time and opportunities allow you to. And definitely grab every chance to discover something new.
> 
> If they ask me to come up with something I haven’t done before, I jump on it, all giddy and excited, and ready and overjoyed to face a new challenge.
> ...



So,first off,my last name is BURNS,so as per Hz,maybe i've actually done something right for a change! /\~O 

but seriously,once again Re-peat is in sympathy with me.

New music styles seem to make me feel stupid and inferior,especially if i sense that there's something cool going on and i haven't the foggiest as to what to do to get there.case in point is Skrillex.not that the style is everyone's picnic,but I felt in my heart of hearts that here was a guy manipulating sound in a way i thought was cool.maybe bad example,but it applies to 60's lounge jazz as well.
End of the day,i discovered that playing and writing in new styles is either fun or not,and one doesn't know until one tries.Some styles are really fun to work in,but a bore to listen to,others are tedious to write in(comedy for me) but fun for others to listen to.
i never knew i'd like some until i tried to learn to write in them,only to discover it was a blast.same goes for different instruments,i never knew how much playing an instrument would change my view of writing music in the first place.

And BTW,was listening to "The last Samurai" just the other day,and noticed how much I liked the music,especially the peaceful scenes in the mountain village.It had a real groove to it I dug.And then i saw who did the score.Did not associate that style with the man,but was pleasantly surprised,even though I should know better by now.the power of courage to try something new is usually rewarded if one goes the distance imho.

and this coming from a guitar player.


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## Stephen Rees (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Just another point of view….
> ...



Philip Glass seems to do quite well in both the concert hall and film worlds. According to his IMDB entry he has 115 film composer credits.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

With any principal you can point to an exception. Phillip gets film scores because he had already achieved success and a fan base as a concert hall composer, something not easily replicated.


Had he tried the reverse, I doubt he would have done many films.


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## MichaelL (Jun 3, 2014)

[quote="Stephen Rees @ Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:02 am"
Philip Glass seems to do quite well in both the concert hall and film worlds. According to his IMDB entry he has 115 film composer credits.[/quote]

Not really the first name that comes to mind when you say film score. In fact, not at all, for me.

I'm in complete agreement with Jay regarding concert composer v. film composers.

Even if you're doing documentaries, or corporate/industrial films you are often faced with the task of writing in diverse styles. Many times I've been called upon to incorporate period music, or ethnic music into a score of a non-entertainment film if the content demanded it. 

That is the challenge and the fun if it.


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

Like I said. It depends what you want to do!

If you want to be super flexible and can pull any genre out of the bag then great go for it!

However if you have a goal that requires a specific set of skills then focus in on what you need to be good at so that you can invest more time into the nuance and creativity of what you need.

Like others have mentioned above, a director's first call for a hybrid synth score probably wouldn't be John Williams....why not? According to many even in this thread alone, he is objectively the best film composer in the world. That because John Williams kicks ass doing what he does, which is that very classical golden age Hollywood style. Thats not to say he couldn't take a great stab at it however there are other composers around who have more influences in that particular area of music, who havestudied the nuances more closly, who can fully satisfy the needs of the style a director is after but also has enough understanding of the culture surrounding that style to push it in new directions. And thats OK!! 

If we all focus on everything, we will have a pretty good understanding of everything but will lack the nuance of the specifics. I mean I am pretty sure many people here could pull a 'dubstep' track out for a director if asked...but it might lack the musical understanding of what makes dubstep resonate with the culture its from. Where as Knife Party or Skirllex could not only do what the director wanted but could also bring something creative to it, knowing where the limits can be pushed and where it wouldn't work as well.

Now I know alot of you think I am talking out my ass, but I know very specifically the types of projects I would enjoy working on so I focus my energy into whats happening in those particular circles and see where there is room to push creatively. Sure I may not get the next rom-com gig but thats ok with me 

I'll say it one more time, it all depends on what you want to do. The phrase: Jack of all master of none exists for a reason 

-DJ


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## MichaelL (Jun 3, 2014)

Daniel James @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Where as Knife Party or Skirllex could not only do what the director wanted but could also bring something creative to it, knowing where the limits can be pushed and where it wouldn't work as well.
> /quote]
> 
> 
> ...


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

Daniel James @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Like I said. It depends what you want to do!
> 
> If you want to be super flexible and can pull any genre out of the bag then great go for it!
> 
> ...



Please name some genre-specificcomposers who do e.g. 3 films a year.


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

MichaelL @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Daniel James @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Where as Knife Party or Skirllex could not only do what the director wanted but could also bring something creative to it, knowing where the limits can be pushed and where it wouldn't work as well.
> ...



Like I said its all about what you want to do. I have very specific projects I want to be a part of, so I see where they are heading musically and I dive headfirst into those genres. The thing is though they are all in similar genres which have their 'cliches' which are important to understand...as they are like a short hand to explain things to an audience. But then knowing where to take them.

But yes when the pendulum swings out of my direction I will not get as much work. Luckily for me I am not financially motivated. I just want to work on things I enjoy doing. Sure I could earn more money doing more genres but if I am not enjoying it whats the point. So AGAIN, its all about what you want out of life.

@Jay: What? I dont understand the point of your question. 

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

The point is if you want to be a film composer and do a fair amount of work, I don't think it is possible to be that specific and say., "Yes I want to be a film composer but only do A, or B because that is the music I like best.

I do think it is in the DNA of most film composers that we like a wide variety of styles and want to do them all.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Please name some genre-specificcomposers who do e.g. 3 films a year.



Would games count as well as films? I'm not up with games really, but I'd be very surprised if there weren't many, many working composers doing hybrid orchestral stuff for movies and games, and not really deviating much from that genre.

Incidentally, you mentioned Danny Elfman has a signature sound... don't want to go too far off topic, but would you still say that was true? I saw that Terminator film he did a couple of years ago, I had no idea it was Elfman.... I much preferred his 90s stuff I must admit. Maybe producers won't let him do that any more... maybe he got bored of it, dunno.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Please name some genre-specificcomposers who do e.g. 3 films a year.
> ...



No games are a different game  I would like to do them but only as a stepping stone to doing more films . I am handicapped by the fact that I despise playing them and therefore aren't really familiar with them 

And yes, Danny has expanded his palette a lot. I have no comment to make on how well or not well l I think he is doing that.


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## AC986 (Jun 3, 2014)

Daniel James @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> I mean I am pretty sure many people here could Where as Knife Party could not only do what the director wanted but could also bring something creative to it, knowing where the limits can be pushed and where it wouldn't work as well.
> Sure I may not get the next rom-com gig but thats ok with me
> 
> 
> -DJ



Wasn't Knife Party a rom-com? I thought it was.

Philip Glass has never appealed so much as a film writer. Why? Not sure. He leaves a lot of emotion out but then again he gets asked to score because he's asked to do neutral perhaps. A lot of scores when you get right down to it are in fact quite minimal in nature.

Danny Elfman did the score to a a pretty good film called A Simple Plan which was so against what you might perceive to be his norm. And that was a few years ago now.


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> The point is if you want to be a film composer and do a fair amount of work, I don't think it is possible to be that specific and say., "Yes I want to be a film composer but only do A, or B because that is the music I like best.
> 
> I do think it is in the DNA of most film composers that we like a wide variety of styles and want to do them all.



And this is exactly my point. Its all about what YOU want to do as a composer. Your entire response seems to focus around money being the driving factor for your decisions. Again nothing wrong with that, but you have to keep in mind not everyone values money over doing their own thing. I mean it also comes down to how you view success, some people would say its who made the most cash and lives in the biggest house...some might say its living life and doing exactly what they wanted to do. You can't assume just because I don't base my decisions on how much money I will earn, my view point is totally invalid. I think both are applicable and it comes down to what the original poster if this thread values in life.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> ...



You see this is another aspect to my point in this response here. You say that you despise playing games.....so why would you want to score them? You don't want to put in the time to understand what the expectations of the work are, or to understand the culture that surrounds it and what is applicable, let alone the technical requirements. You could only ever produce a pale imitation of what game music is. Which of course can be done, but it sounds like the process would not be enjoyable for you....so are you saying that you would do it just for the money?

And lol scoring them as a stepping stone to films!? that sounds a little dismissive of how creative the industry is. With a hint of disrespect for the culture and artists that work in it...as if its below the film industry and they would be lucky for you to bless them with your presence. haha and again this is where we differ, I see working in that industry for me as a greater goal than film. Thats where I want to be. Never would I claim that film is a stepping stone though lol XD

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

Daniel James @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > The point is if you want to be a film composer and do a fair amount of work, I don't think it is possible to be that specific and say., "Yes I want to be a film composer but only do A, or B because that is the music I like best.
> ...



It has little to do with money. Like Piet said, I love putting music to picture and I love the challenge of writing in different styles.

There is no genre/style of music that I could ever love so much more than all others that I would be limited to it. To me, it is like eating only 1 food group.

Once again though I am talking about composing for film/TV which if I won ten million dollars in the lottery and money was no consideration is still what I would want to do. But if I won that money, I sure would not want to do trailers


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Daniel James @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> ...



Well there you go then. You are financially motivated. Which is completely fine! I am just pointing out that it all comes down to what each person wants out of their careers. Sure it may not be an approach to the career you would take but it doesnt make the approaches of those who operate differently any less valid. And it totally comes down to what you want to do. 

Just the way I see it is if you spread yourself over every genre it will be harder to define what your voice is, if you have your thing and be the best at that your voice will be much more present and easier to use as a point of reference for directors. I have been asked to 'Daniel James' up a track by a few directors at this point, and I know what they mean by that....I can apply that verb to whatever genre I want to try. The same as Hans can do a rom com and if they said can you Zimmer that up a bit he would have an idea what they mean....the same as if they said to Hans can you John Williams that up a bit he would also know what that means.....if they said can you Jay Asher that up, it might be tricky haha. Now I am not saying I am on that kind of level yet, but there are quite a few here who would know what Daniel James-ing a track up would sound like.....I forget where I was going with this lol but it was funny to type XD

Again its just my opinion but I fully believe it 

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

You have obviously not listened to enough John Williams. The stylistic range of what he has written is dazzling. 

And you already read what Hans said about this.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 3, 2014)

To my ears, most of the big A-listers are doing variations on the sounds/styles that they're known for. They've been successful with that so they get hired for that. When they're forced to do a metal, edm, blues, spanish, etc. section they usually do the "film music" (not necessarily pastiche) version of those styles, basically enough to fool the public or reference a style. Unless you are collaborating with people that actually play that style almost all the time, you aren't doing that style. Howard Shore had Marc ribot for The Departed, etc. instead of getting a session guy to copy him wo any balls. 

The only truly stylistically diverse composer I know of out there currently is Brian Reitzell.


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## JohnG (Jun 3, 2014)

James Newton Howard has crushed a number of widely divergent styles too. Gifted and hard working.


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> You have obviously not listened to enough John Williams. The stylistic range of what he has written is dazzling.
> 
> And you already read what Hans said about this.



I never said he doesn't have range, I said if you were asked to 'John Williams' something up, you instantly get an idea of what they mean. Which is was relevant to the point I was making.

And yes I read what Hans said, but I'm not sure why you brought that up? Hans saying something doesn't instantly invalidate or change my opinion. He has his thoughts on the subject and I have mine. Both are valid. 

But hey there is no set path in life. You have to decide how you want to go about it, and how you want to go through your own career. You have to define within yourself what success is and you chase your own goals. There are many here who would consider scoring a Hollywood feature the pinnacle of composition where as others would consider it writing a symphony, for others it may be to make thousands of people dance for an hour. Its very easy for people here to get caught up in the hive mind of the message board and start to think (as Jay I think was saying) that because one successful person says something, that is the ONLY voice you should listen too. Sure if what the person is saying is at the top of where you personally want to be then listen to every word, but like I keep saying, it ultimately comes down to what YOU WANT. Only you can decide that, so when one asks the question...what styles of music should a composer know, the only person who really knows is you.

-DJ


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## G.E. (Jun 3, 2014)

> There are many here who would consider scoring a Hollywood feature the pinnacle of composition where as others would consider it writing a symphony, for others it may be to make thousands of people dance for an hour.


I agree with this 100%.To me personally,Hollywood features are an obsolete medium filled with mediocrity and cliches.(Even though that's where all the money is) My proudest achievement would be scoring a TV series or better yet,a Netflix series like House of Cards.
And video games are more and more appealing since they are starting to put a huge focus on storytelling.

But as Daniel was saying,everyone wants different things.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

Not me.I am just as likely to think of his jazzy score to "Catch Me If You Can", "JFK', etc, as Star Wars.

And here again is where I know 90% of people here disagree with me, but your view and Hans' are not equally valid because he has actually done what we are talking about and you are at the beginning of a journey.

But anyway surely we can agree that someone who self-defines as a "film composer" is NOT a film composer if he only scores a film once in a great while because he only wants to write in one or two styles that he loves. That is a composer who occasionally scores a film, not a "film composer."

The problem I guess is the broadness of the topic title. I perhaps took it to mean those who compose for a living when that may not be the full extent of what the OP was asking. If so, my bad.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 3, 2014)

> Do you want to be a musical jack-of-all-trades or a master of one?



A master of all.

Never mind anything else, is source music hard?

That aside, to me grabbing the gist of a style is the easy part (unless it's an ethnic style foreign to my Western ears, and I can think of one project in which I was guilty of extreme bullshitting - and nobody knew).

The hard part is writing good music!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 3, 2014)

And writing it quickly.


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

G.E. @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> > There are many here who would consider scoring a Hollywood feature the pinnacle of composition where as others would consider it writing a symphony, for others it may be to make thousands of people dance for an hour.
> 
> 
> I agree with this 100%.To me personally,Hollywood features are an obsolete medium filled with mediocrity and cliches.(Even though that's where all the money is) My proudest achievement would be scoring a TV series or better yet,a Netflix series like House of Cards.
> ...



There you go that narrows down the search in what styles you should look into. For you success is tv, something like house of cards. So what genres keep popping up, how are they effectively telling the story with music in your favorite shows. Learn the cliches and the musical short hand that the audience will expect from a TV series and then build on that. That way its familiar enough in the language of TV that they can follow it (because you took the time to understand what that language is) and then build your voice (supported by your influences) into that. Sure you may be asked to do a genre you are not familiar with but if you have a solid foundation in the music you like to do and is allowing you to do what it is you want to get what you want out of your career (lol) then its just a case of either learning (101 style) something as you need or bring in some collaboration to help fill you in while you apply that style to your own. 

I think putting your focus into the styles you need to get where you want (as mentioned above) you will get the type of work you want. Again, if you don't like big band music...dont do a show thats all big band xD (unless like some here you are financially motivated in which case you just suck it up and grind it out)

-DJ

-


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> And here again is where I know 90% of people here disagree with me, but your view and Hans' are not equally valid because he has actually done what we are talking about and you are at the beginning of a journey.



Yup I totally disagree with you here. Hans has 100% reached the pinnacle of his field and his word on that path is gospel. But his path isn't my path (a fact I believe he is well aware of) The world of music I choose to focus on is in a different direction to his so its like apple and oranges and its sort of irritating that you keep dragging him into this. If someone becomes the top of the game in one field their opinion doesnt then trump all other opinions for all other fields by default. If one becomes a rockstar they dont then have a more valid opinion than someone in the Filmscore world, or the dubstep world. I have nothing but respect for Hans or any other member of this forum who has a solid view on things....but just because they say something doesnt mean I will change my opinion or view, nor does it mean what I am saying has any less value....whether or not you choose to listen to his opinion over mine is up to you (which I imagine most here will lol) But I will not change who I am or what I believe based on someone elses level of success.

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

Clearly, there are two types of composer: those who are mostly only interested in what they like to listen to and those who any new challenge is a joy.

I am so glad that n I decided early on as a young ma I was the latter.


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## germancomponist (Jun 3, 2014)

Saxer @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> i did a lot of style hopping for commercial spots over decades. it's always fun to discover new styles. the best way to learn about styles is getting such a job done.
> 
> and if you need help don't be afraid to ask other composers. collaboration is always a good thing!



Yeah, the same here. And working together with other composers can also give you very much fun.
o-[][]-o


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Clearly, there are two types of composer: those who are mostly only interested in what they like to listen to and those who any new challenge is a joy.
> 
> I am so glad that n I decided early on as a young ma I was the latter.



No Jay. Thats bullshit. You are phrasing it like one is superior to the other. There is plenty of challenge in being selective about what you do. You can bring in any influence you want, you can learn what you want. You are simply not learning everything for the sake of learning it...if it isnt particularly a style you enjoy. I mean you even said you hate epic trailer music, do you invest the same amount of time in that style as you do for one you love? because by your reckoning, even though you don't like it, it would be equally as fun to write?

It should have been more like there are two types of composers. Those who are financially motivated and those who are more selective about what they want to do.

Both have challenges and plenty of creative opportunity, but dont try to pass it off like one is far superior.

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

Daniel James @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Clearly, there are two types of composer: those who are mostly only interested in what they like to listen to and those who any new challenge is a joy.
> ...



Sorry but in my mind one IS superior. I respect your right to disagree. And yes I dislike most epic trailer music but I could do it if called upon and would and would probably have fun in the process.

I never liked Country music but I had a great time when I took a gig for a month and played for Bobbi Gentry and Jim Stafford and I learned how to play piano in the style of Floyd Cramer.

To make a play on the old song, when I'm not with the one I love, I love the one I'm with.


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## Stephen Rees (Jun 3, 2014)

FWIW my thinking is very much in accord with yours DJ.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 3, 2014)

I did an ad pitch last year in which they wanted dubstep (it was an energy drink). I'm not into that style at all (don't mind some drum n bass, hip hop or actual dub though). I did my research and I did my best. I was amazed that I even through a few rounds of revisions before getting the ax. They liked it at least that much but it sounded like someone who doesn't make dubstep making dubstep for an ad. It may have fooled them but whatever.

I've found that for me that if I don't like a style or what is going on musically then I have no idea what decisions to make. I don't know when something is good and when it's silly or just bad. Also if it's no fun then I won't do very well. That's just me maybe.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

I did this really terrible Lionsgate film called "Hittin' It". The title tells you all you need to know. I am a middle aged Jewish composer but I got the gig because of politics. 

It was a hip-hoppish/R & B type score that they really liked and I had a ball doing it because it was a broad comedy that needed some help from the music.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 3, 2014)

Jay, how are you going to be able to do your take epic symphonic glitch house blackened technical microtonal death k-pop if someone doesn't step out and make that style first? Isn't that why film music is a genre now bc it's eating it's own tail and reusing the same cliches? 

I mean enjoy yourself all you want but we aren't doing music or the styles we mimic any favors. There's a reason why so many pop stars, edm artists and rock bands are doing film scores now. Why get some composer guy to fake it when you can get the real thing and have a composer do all the heavy lifting? And that's a real sore spot for composers which explains why they are always insisting that they can do any style.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

givemenoughrope @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Jay, how are you going to be able to do your take epic symphonic glitch house blackened technical microtonal death k-pop if someone doesn't step out and make that style first? Isn't that why film music is a genre now bc it's eating it's own tail and reusing the same cliches?



You mean you missed my seminal score that basically defined that aesthetic?


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 3, 2014)

I did but don't think it's not giving me nightmares. ha.


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Daniel James @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> ...



I respect your right to have an opinion like that, even though I totally disagree with the way you stated it like fact. But thats your call.

And this I think brings me round to my point of jack of all: You hate trailer music, but if called upon you believe you could do it (and I'm skeptical you would actually have fun doing it other than to use it as a point to strengthen your argument lol) BUT could you do it on the caliber to a specialist trailer composer like Thomas Bergesen or an Ivan Torrent, two composers who have real strengths in that style of music. Who have really worked in that field and understand what makes that music work inside and out. Most likely not, and that's, I believe, because you are either spreading your net too wide and only taking the basics of that type of music instead of really understanding its nuance or you are not putting in the time to understand it to its full...and of course why should you, its not the kinda thing you want to do...if someone wants a trailer cue are they gunna goto you who doesnt really know it or are they gunna look at the work of people who love that kind of music and really focus on and put their full effort behind it. 

I think the only time you would get asked to write something out of your own voice is either part of a project you were hired for your voice on has a cue that steps outside of your normal sound ie a TV show has a party scene in a swing club (random example) or you are already connected with a director who wants to keep working with you and believes you can learn a style or pull in the collaborators in the required time to make it work. At the end of the day there are specialists in every genre who will pull out a more authentic and real score which was composed with a passion for the medium that will get the work over a composer who knows a little bit of everything or is trying something for the first time or is even worse, grinding through a genre they hate. No director is going to approach John Williams and ask him to do a death metal score, I'm sure he could pull it off somehow but thats not why you hire John Williams. You hire him because he does John Williams. You hire Hans Zimmer because he does the best Hans Zimmer. Sure they can easily branch into other generes but they have their own voice which was developed over the years in their own influences. Of course these are extract examples, I am not speaking directly for John or Hans, I can't say how much they would enjoy a death metal score but the principle I think stands.

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

Of course not, but if I had fun doing it and the client liked it, then i don't care if it is as good as a specialists.

In LA we often hire woodwind players who double on sessions. When a part is critical, let's say a flute, we generally do not hire a doubler but someone who exclusively plays flute.

If they need and can afford a T. J. they will hire him. If they cannot and I have a connection, they may hire me and i will do my best to do a decent job.

When Allan Silvestri did "Romancing The Stone" he was doing a John Williams type score. Could he do it as well? He himself will tell you, as he told me, absolutely not, but it was his first step in a longtime collaboration with the director, Zemeckis, because he was was happy with the score, loved Allan personally, and the film was a hit.


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Of course not, but if I had fun doing it and the client liked it, then i don't care if it is as good as a specialists.
> 
> In LA we often hire woodwind players who double on sessions. When a part is critical, let's say a flute, we generally do not hire a doubler but someone who exclusively plays flute.
> 
> ...



Exactly so if they want a certain type of music they will go for the people who do that thing first. Which is sort of my whole point. What styles of music should a composer know? the type of music they love to do and are interested in. Get good at that and people will come to you. Unless you are financially motivated in which case you spread your net wide and pick up any gig you can, which are more than likely the ones that couldn't get a specialist. But again if its not a genre you enjoy writing for why would you want to take that route, other than for money of course. And of course just focusing on the things you want to do may not get you as MANY gigs but when it comes to that type of music you will be higher up on the call sheet of gigs you want to do. And sure if you are a guy who wants to do everything, go crazy, have fun...just keep in mind its rare to be a master of all. Like I said its all about what you want out of your life.

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

Here is where our discussion breaks down: you cannot conceive of loving to write music in a style you do not love and I know that I can.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Here is where our discussion breaks down: you cannot conceive of loving to write music in a style you do not love and I know that I can.



This is not true for me. I love 70s Jamaican Dub, 90s Gothenburg Death metal, Drum n Bass, Rembetika, Tuvan throat music. I'm never going to write in those styles ever. I'm likely to borrow from them in any way but my actual take on those styles would be barely recognizable to it's progenitors. It's more like...I don't want to try to write anything within stylistic constraints where I already know the outcome. If the idea is to authentically recreate (insert name) then I'm buggered.


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Here is where our discussion breaks down: you cannot conceive of loving to write music in a style you do not love and I know that I can.



Lol good on you....but this topic isn't about you or me. Its about what music should a composer know. And I believe its all about what you want out of your life and career. If you genuinely love to write music in genres you hate then go crazy. If you love gritty tv shows, then dive into that world. If you love Fantasy RPG games go full force there. Just do what you want to do and be the best at it. Define musically who you are and get hired to do the things you love to do. Thats my view on it. I guess you were right to a point, I can't get my head around people who do things they dont enjoy.

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

Once again, are we talking about ALL composers or film composers?

If we restrict it to the latter, look at any list of those considered the best in every era and you will see the overwhelming majority fit the "got comfortable writing in many styles" paradigm.

If we are talking about composers in general, then yes, it may be less true.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

givemenoughrope @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Here is where our discussion breaks down: you cannot conceive of loving to write music in a style you do not love and I know that I can.
> ...



Authenticity is sometimes required and sometimes is not. Look at Bill Conti's much admired scores for "The Karate Kid" films. Were they anywhere close to authentic Okinawan music for the Miyagi character? Or even Japanese? Or even Asian? It was "Rocky"with a pan flute, but it worked great!

if someone calls me and says "Jay, I need a really authentic score for Genre X" then I will be candid and tell them, "I cannot do that but I can do a score that is Genre X-ish and will work well with the film."

it is up to them at that point.


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## germancomponist (Jun 3, 2014)

Guys, I'll buy you a Six-Pack!


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## Daryl (Jun 3, 2014)

If someone is truly writing music in a genre they don't even like, and want it to sound authentic (whatever that means) chances are they will do a bad job. However, if they are using flavours from that genre and write something that appeals to them, something good can come from it. Of course if the client really does want that genre, and can actually tell the difference, then said composer is a bad choice for the gig.

There are genres of music that I don't understand and therefore am not able to write something good in these genres. I could write something, but as it all sounds sh*t to me, I would have no idea whether or not what I was writing was good.  :lol: 

D


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## germancomponist (Jun 3, 2014)

Daryl @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> If someone is truly writing music in a genre they don't even like, and want it to sound authentic (whatever that means) chances are they will do a bad job. However, if they are using flavours from that genre and write something that appeals to them, something good can come from it. Of course if the client really does want that genre, and can actually tell the difference, then said composer is a bad choice for the gig.
> 
> There are genres of music that I don't understand and therefore am not able to write something good in these genres. I could write something, but as it all sounds sh*t to me, I would have no idea whether or not what I was writing was good. :lol:
> 
> D



Experiment with a good red-wine before you start composing. Sometimes it can help!


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2014)

germancomponist @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > If someone is truly writing music in a genre they don't even like, and want it to sound authentic (whatever that means) chances are they will do a bad job. However, if they are using flavours from that genre and write something that appeals to them, something good can come from it. Of course if the client really does want that genre, and can actually tell the difference, then said composer is a bad choice for the gig.
> ...



Gunther you are so beautifully German. I love it xD

-DJ


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## AC986 (Jun 3, 2014)

He's a marvel of Teutonic engineering. o-[][]-o


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## germancomponist (Jun 3, 2014)

Thks Daniel! o-[][]-o 

I invite you all to watch this vid: 

You got it?

I was so impressed after watching this!

o[])


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

That's the way to do it if you have the opportunity. I love the fact that Mr. Zimmer has not become jaded and maintains that enthusiam. It is a beautiful thing.


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## Daryl (Jun 3, 2014)

germancomponist @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Experiment with a good red-wine before you start composing. Sometimes it can help!


As I don't drink alcohol, I would have to squirt it up my arse to have any effect, and then how would I talk to people? :wink: 

D


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## germancomponist (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> That's the way to do it if you have the opportunity. I love the fact that Mr. Zimmer has not become jaded and maintains that enthusiam. It is a beautiful thing.



+1


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

A life without single malt scotch? Too scary to contemplate: )


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## germancomponist (Jun 3, 2014)

Daryl @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> germancomponist @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Experiment with a good red-wine before you start composing. Sometimes it can help!
> ...



Lol, you are missing something very special! 

You never drink a good red-wine?


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## Allegro (Jun 3, 2014)

Write for all the styles you like listening to. Sounds simple but being a multi-genre producer (who isn't?) it has helped me a lot. I always try to capture the essence (for the lack of a better word) of a genre completely before I even think about composing it.


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## AlexandreSafi (Jun 3, 2014)

James Newton Howard in one of his most recent interview said (13th min):
Contemporary scoring as in the case of "Her", which he loved, isn't something he feels particularly comfortable with, so just know, the fear never ends... 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3-nfpz7tqQ


Again in the end, G.E., you ask yourself the question... 
What does being a "G.E. composer" mean to you?

I happen to exactly fit in Jay & Piet's definition of what being a composer and making music mean to me... I'll add a little thing to that: i'm a *"I-love-what-i-don't-understand type of composer"*... I want my voice, but i both don't care about "style", and care about "all of them", actually the better i get at internalizing the fundamentals, which are to me, hearing analytically, reading, etc.. the more pleasure i get in deconstructing first the music i love, [which of course never really stops] and then want to explore all the rest which exists afar...(so what does that make me...--a "child" to me) 
---I don't like dubstep, but why do i really want to learn how to make it? Because i love the idea that it's a musical skill, that it needs respect, because other people have developed it as an artform, and i truly believe that if i learn it, i can turn it on its head and bring it into my world, a world that never stops getting discovered! Just look at Amazing Sp2's fantastic transgenre result...
---I used to love trailer music, i still remember how crazy i got over the initial 2004 Spider-man 2 "Immediate music" Trailer, but i don't like any of that trailer genre anymore, however i'm dead envious to learn how to make it like the trailer composers heroes, why? because i believe it's still challenging, and needs training to make it good, and i love that...
---I like jazz, but god knows, i love the idea even more that i will one day understand it enough to make me feel like i'm seeing the world with new composer's eyes and that nobody could ever take that away from me... 
---I don't really like rap anymore either, but how would i love the idea of facing that challenge in a story with a character i would care about! 

Music is the only thing in my life where i roughly feel i can't accept the idea that "it's ok not to understand something". That... pushes me patiently further every day...

I want to be the best musician i can be first, but i just realized that doesn't mean to me going after what i just love, ironically this idea bores me, i simply do not want to think about it and want to erase the illusion of style in my head...

The composer should know the good music from the bad, whether he finds it good or bad, and still see the potential and then make it good according to himself!...

But in the end, styles matter less, your problem is in how to "problem-solve" a musical maze... The solution is more about the hours you spend, and the brain making new connections while writing, writing & more writing music everyday, regardless of a movie or any project...


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## Daryl (Jun 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> A life without single malt scotch? Too scary to contemplate: )


I have other ways to get a fix....

D


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## Daryl (Jun 3, 2014)

germancomponist @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> You never drink a good red-wine?


No such thing.

D


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## germancomponist (Jun 3, 2014)

Daryl @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> germancomponist @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > You never drink a good red-wine?
> ...



I accept your choice, sure, but.... hm.... . o=<


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 3, 2014)

Gunther, let Daryl wallow in his ignorance of the beauty of a fine glass of wine and a good single malt scotch. We can only pity the poor sod


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## AC986 (Jun 3, 2014)

Too much tannin. Makes me shit an outside shit brick house if I drink that stuff. Rehab.


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## re-peat (Jun 4, 2014)

Daryl @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> If someone is truly writing music in a genre they don't even like, and want it to sound authentic (whatever that means) chances are they will do a bad job.


I believe that very much depends on one’s talent (not just general musical talent, but also, more specifically, talent for assimilation), for starters, and one’s willingness to really get inside a certain style, i.o.w not merely be satisfied with learning and trying to copy the superficialities (which indeed would result in ersatz sillyness that never sounds authentic), but really trying to grasp, in the tiniest of detail, which musical elements make up a certain style or idiom.

Last year I did a series for which the director (first collaboration) expected ‘ambient, soundscapish electronics in the Scandinavian mould’ (think “The Killing”, “The Bridge”, “Wallander”, …). Now, that sort of music used to be as alien to me as Gunther’s dipsomaniac tendencies are. I didn’t particularly like it, I certainly had never attempted to make this kind of music before this job arrived, and my studio/DAW was in no way set up with that type of music in mind. 

But the re-peats recognize a challenge when they see one, so step-by-step, and getting increasingly excited as I made progress, I conquered this strange musical territory. Also learning a few things in the process, chief among them being: 
(a) sounddesign-ish music is actually a hell of lot more difficult to make than it is all too often considered to be. If you want to do it good, that is. 
(b) ‘orchestrating’ synths and abstract sound is every bit as difficult as orchestrating traditional instruments (possibly requiring even a finer ear, cause you can’t rely on the established and instantly recognizeable beauty of real instruments and the sounds you work with have no standardized ‘emotional referencing quality’ which real instruments have).
(c) what an immense relief it was, and is, not to have to mess about with fake strings, fake brass, mock-up this, artificial that, tiresome make-believe this, clumsy almost-sounding-real-but-never-quite that, … it was like breathing fresh air, it really was.
Anyway, job turned out well. So well in fact, that we teamed up again this year.

Move forward up until a few months ago: same director, new tv-series and this time the musical code-word was “Mogwai”. Never had listened to Mogwai before, didn’t particularly enjoy my first encounters with the music of the band all that much, but … again fully determined to get to the bottom of it, beginning by buying a handful of Mogwai albums and studying their music long and hard. (Gradually beginning to like what I discovered.)
If you’re vaguely familiar with the band, you might think they do ‘simple’ music, but it’s actually surprisingly un-simple underneath. Deceptively simple, would be a fitting description. And production-wise, which is an aspect of that music that is very important to get right, it really is quite difficult actually, especially when having to simulate those textures, that feel, and those moods “in the box”.

Quickly realized that, if I was ever going to do this convincingly, I was going to need something ‘real’ and ‘organic’ alongside my samples, so I bought a bassguitar and learned to play it. Well, enough for contributing a few effective parts. (Turned out to be a great idea, and I’m really pleased with that purchase and my new-found love for playing real instruments. See the ‘fresh air’ experience above ― same thing.)
Equally importantly, I also learned about the stark and static harmonic language of the band ― which is the complete opposite of what my own harmonic instincts usually make me do ―, the odd and shifting time-signatures, the warm-and-veering-towards-lo-fi type of sounds, the attention for timbral detail, … and eventually, after a few frustrating weeks of failure and half-successes (but always finding new determination in that frustration), I got there.
And again: discovered loads of things I didn’t know about before, I also have come to appreciate a type of music-making I wasn’t into before, and the whole experience, just like the ‘abstract sounddesign’ experience of last year, has been one of enrichment and rewarding musical discovery.

It requires effort and perseverance, yes, and you sometimes feel totally lost, frustrated and quite often, you even consider yourself a complete hack and failure, but then one day, suddenly, things begin to click, everything starts falling into place, your newly-grown musical wings begin to flap ever more anxiously and confidently … and then you know you’re ready to fly. And fly you do. And that’s a great moment.

_


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 4, 2014)

Well, if you want to get to the bottom of Mogwai you'd have to listen to Slint, Tortoise and maybe even Godflesh or Neurosis. To me, Mogwai is really the Monkees to their Hendrix or worse. Nothing they've done that hasn't been done much better. Neither here nor there to a director or music sup though. Honestly, re-peat doing Mogwai sounds like it could be awesome. No way it isn't better than the band itself.

I'd love to hear your work from this series. I agree that dealing with synths (also granular stuff, found sounds) is pretty liberating from the sample realism thing. And quickly one tries to figure out a methodology. Not sure if you've seen or read about the score for the series Hannibal. Similar territory.


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## Daryl (Jun 4, 2014)

re-peat @ Wed Jun 04 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > If someone is truly writing music in a genre they don't even like, and want it to sound authentic (whatever that means) chances are they will do a bad job.
> ...


Agreed, and that's why I say "chances are" because nearly everyone involved in commercial music doesn't have this ability, or even cares enough to try. As an example, many people on this forum would say that they write orchestral music, but to those of us who actually work with orchestras on a regular basis, these pieces sound nothing like orchestral music.

D


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## Lex (Jun 4, 2014)

givemenoughrope @ Wed Jun 04 said:


> I agree that dealing with synths (also granular stuff, found sounds) is pretty liberating from the sample realism thing. And quickly one tries to figure out a methodology. Not sure if you've seen or read about the score for the series Hannibal. Similar territory.



Yes but only somewhat, Brian Reitzell's Hannibal is a genius beast of it's own, predominantly acoustic score with very little synth work, if at all. Certainly the best score on TV at the moment 

alex


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 4, 2014)

It's my fav as well. He is using his share of analog synths though. No vi's and played live through hardware delays and reverbs. Some cello and great clarinet in spots as well.


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## germancomponist (Jun 4, 2014)

re-peat @ Wed Jun 04 said:


> Now, that sort of music used to be as alien to me as Gunther’s dipsomaniac tendencies are.



>8o 

Now this is interesting! Can u tell us more?


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## markwind (Jun 4, 2014)

re-peat @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> I don’t quite understand how any self-respecting musician can ask this kind of question, almost making it sound like “Teacher, do we have to learn this chapter and this addendum for the exams as well?” I mean, what sort of sad mentality is that, for a musician?
> I’d have thought that, if you have music running through your veins, you’d be eager and keen to learn and explore as much music, and styles of music, as time and opportunities allow you to. And definitely grab every chance to discover something new.
> 
> If they ask me to come up with something I haven’t done before, I jump on it, all giddy and excited, and ready and overjoyed to face a new challenge.
> ...


I hate to say it G.E. but, my first thoughts were quite similar to re-peats. Which doesn't happen often on a first-post-in-topic basis.. He worded exactly how I approach my own little journey through it all.


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## G.E. (Jun 4, 2014)

> I hate to say it G.E. but, my first thoughts were quite similar to re-peats. Which doesn't happen often on a first-post-in-topic basis.. He worded exactly how I approach my own little journey through it all.


Fair enough.When you have over 30 years of experience(probably), like re-peat, it's easy to think like that and it's easier to adapt to any style.But you and I are more or less in the same boat when it comes to experience.Are you telling me that it would be ethical to jump on a project which you know nothing about and make experiments at the expense of a client's time and resources ?
It's only natural to be excited about doing something new but you have to be honest with yourself first and think of the greater good instead of just your selfish desire to get a gig.
It's not even about being bold or afraid.It's about realizing that you can't skip a whole chapter in a book and still understand what's going on.Experience is the keyword here.

As for this:


> I don’t quite understand how any self-respecting musician can ask this kind of question, almost making it sound like “Teacher, do we have to learn this chapter and this addendum for the exams as well?” I mean, what sort of sad mentality is that, for a musician?


When you learn music theory,don't you first need to learn the scales and intervals in order to move on any further? The same in this case.I want to learn the most common styles first before venturing out into others.
But it's hard to ask a question these days without people reading something else into it.


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## Peter Costa (Jun 4, 2014)

Make a lot of friends who are going to help you out. You don't have to have the mentality of thinking you have to do everything on your own (remembering those "No I in Team" posters I'd see in school). There are plenty of people I rely on to ask questions about what I'm doing right or wrong. I've read about plenty of people who started in rock bands, knew nothing about music theory and sooner than they probably felt comfortable with were writing for orchestras. Ultimately I think the attitude and willingness to explore will be a reflection on where you might end up down the road.

Also, when it comes down to it, we (those who have not established themselves)can't be too picky on the specifics. Heck, I could be doing kids shows in the end, but who knows where that will take me. An opportunity is an opportunity, and if you don't take it, someone else will. I don't have a lot of experience in the film scoring world, but that's what I've seen in the music industry in general. Of course this is all my own observations, and I'm definitely not as experienced as many are out there. Great thread though, much insight on all these posts.

-Pete


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## JimmyPoppa (Jun 5, 2014)

Uncle Peter @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> Whatever moves you surely.
> 
> If someone asked me to compose big band - I'd tell em to eff off with that fookin big band you big ponce.
> 
> Donkey



ROTFLMAO o-[][]-o 

I'm not so good at lots of styles but know a bit about Big Band:

https://soundcloud.com/jimmy-lockett/ji ... rangements

It's not as hard as... Cinema Epic, Modern Orchestral, 16th Century counterpoint, Baroque, Modal, Atonal, Serial... Damn! I'm screwed.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## G.E. (Jun 5, 2014)

Peter Costa @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> Make a lot of friends who are going to help you out. You don't have to have the mentality of thinking you have to do everything on your own (remembering those "No I in Team" posters I'd see in school). There are plenty of people I rely on to ask questions about what I'm doing right or wrong. I've read about plenty of people who started in rock bands, knew nothing about music theory and sooner than they probably felt comfortable with were writing for orchestras. Ultimately I think the attitude and willingness to explore will be a reflection on where you might end up down the road.
> 
> Also, when it comes down to it, we (those who have not established themselves)can't be too picky on the specifics. Heck, I could be doing kids shows in the end, but who knows where that will take me. An opportunity is an opportunity, and if you don't take it, someone else will. I don't have a lot of experience in the film scoring world, but that's what I've seen in the music industry in general. Of course this is all my own observations, and I'm definitely not as experienced as many are out there. Great thread though, much insight on all these posts.
> 
> -Pete



Teamwork can be a beautiful thing but I think the problem in the world today is that people don't bother to do as much as they can on their own.And they learn to rely on others for everything.Then plans get derailed and things aren't going as they should because too many things were out of their control.

From your friend who just refuses to spend 30 minutes to research how to troubleshoot his own computer,to the composer who doesn't bother to be the best he can be at orchestration and always relies on orchestrators.If you can get someone better than you to do it,that's great.But why not have the skill yourself just in case ?


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## markwind (Jun 5, 2014)

G.E. @ Wed Jun 04 said:


> > I hate to say it G.E. but, my first thoughts were quite similar to re-peats. Which doesn't happen often on a first-post-in-topic basis.. He worded exactly how I approach my own little journey through it all.
> 
> 
> Fair enough.When you have over 30 years of experience(probably), like re-peat, it's easy to think like that and it's easier to adapt to any style.But you and I are more or less in the same boat when it comes to experience.Are you telling me that it would be ethical to jump on a project which you know nothing about and make experiments at the expense of a client's time and resources ?
> ...


I Don't think there will ever come a point where you think your experience ensures your ability to take a certain style and run with it. Or perhaps let me rephrase that, I don't think there should be a point where it feels like it does. New things are new, experience merely tells you that you are good at picking up new things or not. 

Right now i'm working on a horror feature, that I am thrilled about doing and the director likes what I have done so far - himself a musician. I have never composed anything Eerie before nor in the specific style I'm going for. The choice to do something new is for me not at all based on my experience with something similar (ie. knowing a style), but my trust in my abilities as a composer to bridge the lacking of experience and come out with something we can be more then proud of. 

It might be false belief, or it might not - time will tell but I do not approach it as rational as you do. I will decide on taking on a project based on my trust in myself, my ability to learn on the job, and the project dangling in front of me. It might well be that I find myself lacking too much.. and I wouldn't trust myself to do a good job on it. But again - that is really not based on 'styles I know'.

And lets get one thing straight; you mention 'experience' in your reply.. While the topic is about "how many styles should I know?". These are overlapping, but still distinct domains. I do not.. not.. base my choices on that. While degrees of experience only influences my measure of confidence in myself (one way or another). which determines my choice on a possible new gig.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 5, 2014)

Perfectly stated IMHO.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 5, 2014)

What are you going to write for source music in the scene with a bagpiper and an accordion player and a guy with a really loud DJ rig all chasing each other around in a circle?

*nose in air* I only write atonal waltzes, so hire someone else.


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## G.E. (Jun 5, 2014)

Mark,I value our friendship so I really hope you don't take this the wrong way.But you can't possibly back up what you are saying after 2 or 3 years of composing experience.I don't care who you are,but you can't possibly be good enough to take on any unfamiliar style after such a short time.We're talking on a deadline of course.I'm sure you can learn any style if you have time to do your research.I admire your confidence and I'm certain it will get you far in your career along with your musical talent but if you tell me otherwise I have to call bullshit.



> And lets get one thing straight; you mention 'experience' in your reply.. While the topic is about "how many styles should I know?". These are overlapping, but still distinct domains. I do not.. not.. base my choices on that. While degrees of experience only influences my measure of confidence in myself (one way or another). which determines my choice on a possible new gig.


They are not at all distinct,at least when concerning this conversation.It's all about experience.Hans Zimmer knowing nothing about Japanese music before scoring The Last Samurai is not even in the same ballpark as you and I not knowing anything about Japanese music.His years of experience as a composer gave him the necessary tools to take on such a challenge.And I realize I may be overstepping by putting you in the same boat as me.I apologize if you think my assumptions regarding that are wrong.


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## AC986 (Jun 5, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> What are you going to write for source music in the scene with a bagpiper and an accordion player and a guy with a really loud DJ rig all chasing each other around in a circle?



That's a tough one. I would probably write bagpipe and accordion music intermingled with loud DJ music and record it through a Leslie cabinet set to tremolo.


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## José Herring (Jun 5, 2014)

G.E. @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> Today I had a bad experience when discussing with a potential client.I was showing him some demos and everything was going well until he told me that he wanted a certain style of music.As I've realized that I've never composed in that style before,I politely told him that I can't give him an answer right away and I need a day to figure some things out.
> I ended up not taking the job.Sure I could be winging it and study some music in that style, hoping I can recreate it on a deadline.But that wouldn't be fair to him and I would potentially ruin any future chances of working with him if I don't do a good job.
> 
> I've decided that I will never let this happen again and next time I will be prepared.
> So my question is,what are common styles of music a composer would be asked to deliver ?



I haven't read the 4 pages of responses so I may be repeating the thread, though I will give my 2 cents.

If you're doing work for hire, which it seems that you are, then the response is, all styles. You'll be called upon to do just about everything, sometimes even within a specific gig. I just did a film gig where I had to do traditional dobro music like "Winter's Bone", Horror monster music, Clearance Clearwater Revival type music and on top of it, dramatic tender music about a father's love for his daughter. It was musical schizophrenia but yet needed to sound like it was coming from a place that was consistent and sincere.

The idea that some music is more holy than other types of music may make for great philosophical pandering, but in truth is just not a reality beyond what people's fixed opinions are. Realistically speaking I find that it's best to find something good in all styles of music from Taylor Swift to Stravinsky. That little idea almost got my kicked out of my conservatory o/~ 

I had the horrid job of doing some hip/hop music one day. Talk about not my style, it's a style that I don't even listen to. If I hear it it's usually blaring out of somebody's car. But, ya' know, I needed the dough. So I took it.

I took this hip hop gig and did some studying of the genre, after I got through all the B.S. misogynistic, nigga this nigaa that bullshit, I actually found something profound. The genre believe it or not is based on empowerment. It took a while to get at it, but it was there once I got past the surface. The sounds are powerful, epic and the strings are meant to add dramatic weight and emotion. At the very least it's an expression on how to get out of the victim mentality and take control of your life from a pretty downtrodden perspective. Young black men that having grown up in the roughest possible places found a way to get out, so money to them is power, having women is power, having cars and houses and such. So, I approached my hip hop tune from the perspective of empowerment. Made the job easier and more personal. 

Do I have my style, yes. Is that style something that anybody else wants, not really. I'm not known. And my real style doesn't really lend itself to commercial music. Perhaps someday it will be, but for now I keep all my concert style music to myself. And, the few people that have bothered to play it.

In the end, I think when you're starting out, you do everything you can. It's too early to tell what you're good at. After studying classical music for years when I first started shockingly I found that I was good at writing pop songs. I don't even like pop music :lol: But, I had a talent for it, I went with it and landed gigs arranging for the likes of Toni Braxton, going on tour with rock bands, and a few other platinum selling artist at the time. Then, I started to think about it, and I lost the knack. As one producer told me, "I know my audience and they don't like anything too complicated". :roll: So I was sidelined as an arranger, too bad it happened before I made my millions. 

Find out what you like about something and proceed from that viewpoint. Try not to waste time with what's better and what's not, what's art and what isn't. It's a fool's journey professionally, but it can yield some satisfaction intellectually. But it's not very practical and certainly won't lead to any meaningful music production beyond writing a few pieces for amusement. Which is unfortunately the fate of too many people that I went to school with who had all the talent in the world besides writing something that is relevant to an audience. They teach now to poison the minds of another generation of young adults who may of been successful.

It's a big subject and that's my very superficial take on it. But, I find that having a view that there's certain things you wont do because it's not you, or you're too good for it is a fatalistic and selfish approach and it robs a potential audience of being at least entertained if not moved by music. Walking out on stage to 50,000 screaming fans and being a part of that, I didn't care what music I was doing, it was just a lot of fun and people really appreciated it. Did I have a personal stake in doing rock music arrangements that appealed to baby boomer white Americans. Nah.... But they enjoyed what I did so I just took myself out of it and wrote everything from another's point of view. I think if you can't do that as an artist, write from other points of view, might as well quit, imo. Because a single point of view is just pretty boring unless you're magically gifted which is bestowed upon maybe 4 or 5 people each century. I don't like those odds. I'm not that special.

All that being said, I can be the most fatalistic snob when it comes to music. I have very little use for "art for art sake" after I suffered through playing hours of music by Milton Babbitt. And, tend to ricochet between a selfish, "I'm going to do what I want to do" attitude and the more practical attitude of "I don't want to get fired". So don't listen to anything I have to say and chose your own path :mrgreen:


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## markwind (Jun 5, 2014)

G.E. @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> I don't care who you are,but you can't possibly be good enough to take on *any *unfamiliar style after such a short time.


Can't say I care whatever anyone thinks on what's not possible.


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## Rctec (Jun 5, 2014)

Big lesson I learned on "Last Samurai" (thanks, Adrian for reminding me):
I spend months researching and learning about Japanese music - and every day I realized it was impossible to learn, even if I had a life-time to immerse myself in it. So I finally figured out that the specifics weren't going to help me, I had to embrace the minimal aesthetics more than the notes. Curiously, I learned more by looking at architecture and paintings than listening to music.
Style is so much about the context and history it's created in. You can get lost - and just sound like a cheap parody - if you are too specific about the source.
-Hz-


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## Jaap (Jun 5, 2014)

I always take the challenge to learn and adopt a new style, but the most important thing I try to master is to make it sound like me. I understand to some extend why G.E is saying you need experience. I do not think that is per se true for learning a new style in general, but experience comes in handy if you want to make it sound like yourself and it will take some years (if not a lifetime) to figure out what your sound is.


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## G.E. (Jun 5, 2014)

markwind @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> G.E. @ Thu Jun 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't care who you are,but you can't possibly be good enough to take on *any *unfamiliar style after such a short time.
> ...



Well,based on your response I have a feeling that you took offense to what I've said.But you have to realize that those weren't words of discouragement or doubt towards you or anyone else.It's just an universal truth that a novice martial artist can't fight in the UFC at the beginning of his career without expecting a trip to the emergency room.But that's not to say he won't be the undefeated champion some day.


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## markwind (Jun 5, 2014)

G.E. @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> markwind @ Thu Jun 05 said:
> 
> 
> > G.E. @ Thu Jun 05 said:
> ...


You really read to much into what people say.

I say 'i dont care whatever anyone thinks on whats impossible'.. That means that I make up my own mind on what I consider to be impossible for me. Nothing more.


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## José Herring (Jun 5, 2014)

Rctec @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> Big lesson I learned on "Last Samurai" (thanks, Adrian for reminding me):
> I spend months researching and learning about Japanese music - and every day I realized it was impossible to learn, even if I had a life-time to immerse myself in it. So I finally figured out that the specifics weren't going to help me, I had to embrace the minimal aesthetics more than the notes. Curiously, I learned more by looking at architecture and paintings than listening to music.
> Style is so much about the context and history it's created in. You can get lost - and just sound like a cheap parody - if you are too specific about the source.
> -Hz-



Interesting, good approach.


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## re-peat (Jun 5, 2014)

G.E. @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> (...) It's all about experience. (...)


Yes, it is. Which is why I am rather puzzled that you, positioning yourself in the market as ‘a professional’, don’t seem to have any. Or so very little anyway.

Before I arrived at the decision that I felt confident enough about my abilities to start asking money for my services, and do so without embarrassement or shame, I had already gone through many, many years of chaotic musical experiences doing all sorts of musical stuff. For free, or for a pint and a sandwich at best. Most of those musical adventures, if one were to look back on them, without much intrinsic value I suppose, but it all added up to “being ready” for just about any kind of request the moment I decided to become a catapult for hire. (I still haven’t reached the gun stage, I feel, hence the friendlier, more modest choice of weaponry metaphor.)

Which is also why I still don’t understand, and have little understanding for, your predicament. You’re struggling with a problem ― crippling inexperience ― that should have been seen to _before_ you turned professional, not _after_. I’m not implying that you have to start with a similar experience that a 40-year or 50-year old composer has under his or her belt ― that is obviously impossible ―, but you should, I think, at least be well past the stage where you have to ask the question: “What should I know?” (if that is a question that needs to be asked _at all_, which, as I mentioned earlier, is something I don't quite understand either).

_


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## AC986 (Jun 5, 2014)

Jaap @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> I always take the challenge to learn and adopt a new style, but the most important thing I try to master is to make it sound like me.



That's interesting Jaap. And of course we should always be looking to take up the challenge and issues of new styles. But how do any of us know what me sounds like? I have no idea of what me sounds like. I would bet that most writers think they sound like someone else 99% of the time.
How anyone gets over this is a mystery to me, but it's not necessarily a monster problem. I'm not saying that, but true originality is a knotty issue.


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## G.E. (Jun 5, 2014)

re-peat @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> G.E. @ Thu Jun 05 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) It's all about experience. (...)
> ...



I bet you weren't expecting this but I don't entirely disagree with you here.I've always had the belief that if you get something in life,you should deserve it.And there are things which I have no problem admitting that I don't deserve yet.I'm only working with up-and-comers like myself who happen to be happy with what I do at this stage.I just want to collaborate with others on projects and have fun.I'm not sending demo reels to Steven Spielberg.

And I don't really have a "predicament". This thread was just fishing for ideas that could help me better my future self.


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## AC986 (Jun 5, 2014)

You're quite level headed for a 21 year old. How's your improvisation going?


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## Jaap (Jun 5, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> Jaap @ Thu Jun 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I always take the challenge to learn and adopt a new style, but the most important thing I try to master is to make it sound like me.
> ...



For me it is not always about originality, but I know from my own music that I always prefer certain instrumentations or some typical melodic or rhythmic stuff that I know that is me (and what I like) and I try to transfer them to other styles and make them fit and that it gives me the same satisfaction as if it would be in a style that I really love to write and fits me.
I don't know if people would really think, "hey, that must be Jaap!", but on the other hand if I find myself back in a different style, then at least I know I hitted for myself the right spot and I can stand with full confidence behind a composition, no matter if it's neo-Mongolian Death Metal or a true authentic Maori Dubstep


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## Daniel James (Jun 5, 2014)

Rctec @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> Big lesson I learned on "Last Samurai" (thanks, Adrian for reminding me):
> I spend months researching and learning about Japanese music - and every day I realized it was impossible to learn, even if I had a life-time to immerse myself in it. So I finally figured out that the specifics weren't going to help me, I had to embrace the minimal aesthetics more than the notes. Curiously, I learned more by looking at architecture and paintings than listening to music.
> Style is so much about the context and history it's created in. You can get lost - and just sound like a cheap parody - if you are too specific about the source.
> -Hz-



This is a pretty good example of what I am talking about I think. Before you were hired on that project you hadn't already taken the time to learn Japanese music in the event you may one day have to write a Japanese score. You took time building up who you are musically and the people who made the hiring decision would have known what you were about. I don't think they would have come to you for a purely authentic Japanese score, they wanted a taste of Japan through the musical eyes of Hans Zimmer, which for that film was perfect, because you have a deep understanding of how to make a film work musically and thats what I think the director probably wanted more than authenticity.

And that goes back to what I have been saying: "What styles should a composer know" The ones that you enjoy to help you develop your own musical voice. And like in Han's example, when needed you can just do what ever genre you have never done before in your own musical voice.

-DJ


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## emid (Jun 5, 2014)

Well a simple question turned out to be a mess.

G.E, just learn new things with fun if you really need to as stated by Mr. Hans. No need to tense yourself, just play your part. If you are satisfied by yourself, go ahead. If not learn more.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 5, 2014)

I also suspect that unless you're a Rctec, almost all filmmakers who want authentic Japanese music are very likely to hire an authentic Japanese musician.


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## H.R. (Jun 5, 2014)

Rctec @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> Big lesson I learned on "Last Samurai" (thanks, Adrian for reminding me):
> I spend months researching and learning about Japanese music - and every day I realized it was impossible to learn, even if I had a life-time to immerse myself in it. So I finally figured out that the specifics weren't going to help me, I had to embrace the minimal aesthetics more than the notes. Curiously, I learned more by looking at architecture and paintings than listening to music.
> Style is so much about the context and history it's created in. You can get lost - *and just sound like a cheap parody* - if you are too specific about the source.
> -Hz-



This reminded me of something. I live in Iran and I know the style of middle eastern music, but most of the soundtracks I listen to, which have eastern settings doesn't sound like Middle East at all. It's like a western guitarist doing the same thing for instance with Sitar. many western people may not notice it but It's completely fake to natives. 

Now lets look at Black Hawk Dawn, It happens in Somalia but the music is completely close to the eastern and Muslim culture. I remember I was listening to it for the first time and I was like "Wow! is this really Hans Zimmer or Abdollah Zimmer?" :D I think bringing on people from target country can help a lot to understand and ultimately making a loyal music, and at the end, you know every style that exist out there.


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## DenisT (Jun 8, 2014)

Personally, I like to work with people who want my sound, my approach, my style, the one you can't get anywhere else because this is ME, and not an other talented composer with another approach and sound.

As an artist, this is much more rewarding! Someone doesn't call you because they need a soundtrack. They call you because they need YOUR soundtrack. This is totally different! But if you want this to happen, you need to get you own style, and we all know how difficult this is 

Writing music is not my main job, so when I write music I just want to write the stuff I really like, because music is much more than "work" to me. If someone asks me to write music I'm not confortable with, I won't do it. But if I was a full time composer, things might be different 

Music is all about emotions. And if you can't put emotions in your music just because you don't believe in it, maybe you should be honnest with your client and tell him you're not the right guy for this mission.

But this is just MY opinion of course, I know some of you won't agree with me :wink:


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