# What do to with trumpets?



## DMarr82 (Apr 22, 2015)

Hi. I need to figure out what to do with trumpets, when it comes to writing film score type material. That part of my game is very weak. Many times I have them double horns, but that's not all they are capable of doing, of course. I am familiar with the work of Williams, and how he uses the triple-tounge technique and fast funs and passages, but I am not really writing that kind of music. 

I was hopeful that some of you can point me in the right direction. I know that there are very few film scores available on sheet music, but who knows of some film scores where you can hear the trumpets? Even if I cant see the sheet music, just hearing the trumpets and how they are used to interact with the rest of the orchestra, especially the rest of the breass, would be very helpful, I think. 

And what else can I listen to and view the sheet music of, even if it is not film score related? Thanks.


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## dgburns (Apr 22, 2015)

trumpet is one of those instruments that just cuts through everything else in the pit.I see it as the 1st violin,or oboe equivalent in the brass.You can use it to push a line above other things by tranferring the top lines over to the trumpet.or just use it to add volume to lines that are register equivalent.
For sure the trumpet has a certain quality to it,very noble in the lower dynamic ranges and very piercing in the upper dynamics.
A very expressive instrument really,and alot like the first violinist in that regard,but with more cut through power.iI can add an emotional lift if you need that extra push when the whole group is going strong.If you find the horn/bone combo not cutting through,think about adding the top line to trumpet,it's the lead guitar of the brass family.

If you think about it,we go to the top line to hear the melody first,so this is an opportunity to use any instrument that can carry that top line and have your melody come across.Even if your middle lne has the melody,that trumpet playing over top it will lure the listener to it as the melody,it's just one of those kind of imstruments.

,anyway,just some thoughts


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## jaeroe (Apr 22, 2015)

Why not get a book on orchestration and look at some better known concert works that have served as models for a lot of film scores? The Samuel Adler book is a good place to start. Later Tchaikovsky symphonies(4-6), Wagner(plenty of opera preludes), Holst (The Planets), mahler (pick a symphony, but 4 is as good as any to start with), strauss (plenty of tone poems)- that's all really big stuff. Rimsky-Korsakov's Sheherezade is pretty good re seeing what the trumpet can do in an orchestral setting. sibelius has pretty crisp orchestration that is more in keeping with the larger orchestral sound of today than a lot of earlier concert work (not the biggest fan of his music, but he could orchestrate), but an alternative to that big german sound.

a couple thoughts on scores from the last 10 or so years - ed shearmur's Sky Captain and the world of tomorrow is a great score with lots of nice big brass. that's coming out of the Kamen/Goldenthal camp. Basil Poledouris' Starship Troopers has some great brass. There are plenty of good Desplat scores - he definitely knows the orchestra - his harry potter stuff is great, godzilla, plenty. David Arnold's score for Casino Royale is fantastic - some great brass work. the list goes on forever. those are just a few things i like off the top of my head that are a little different from one another (and not john williams or jerry goldsmith)


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## trumpoz (Apr 23, 2015)

If you are looking for what the trumpet can do - find recordings of all of the following excerpts and listen to them in the full context.

New York Philharmonic Principal Trumpet

That particular position was previously held by Phillip Smith, held alongside Bud Herseth as one of the modern-day greats of orchestral trumpet playing.


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## JT (Apr 23, 2015)

You need necessarily need scores, just ears.

Trumpets are heroic. What does John Williams use when Indiana Jones springs into action? - trumpets.

Now think of Saving Private Ryan. A solo trumpet conveys loss, isolation, grief....

Go to listen to Mahler, Stravinsky, Copland, listen to the context in which they use trumpets and what emotion they convey, that's where you'll find your answer.


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## Rodney Money (Apr 23, 2015)

Trumpet is my principal instrument. I know this is Williams again, but take a listen to this first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_fJg7ncjaI


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## jamwerks (Apr 23, 2015)

Trumpets can (and do) do lots other than heroic. You can even pass on the orchestration books imo and just buy some scores that you like.


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## DMarr82 (Apr 23, 2015)

Thank you all very much for the relies! I have not yet looked at any of the examples, but will tomorrow. So, thanks for those.

Let me give everyone a quick down and dirty example of one of the main areas where I need help. What to do with the trumpets when the horns are playing a melody. So, I have my percussion moving along, my upper strings playing staccato, lower strings playing long moving lines, the lower brass playing with the lower strings, and the horns are playing a melodic figure at the f (maybe ff) dynamic that is heard clearly. Now, I am stuck with what to do with the trumpets. Have them play in unison with the horns is about the only thing I can think to do without everything getting messy. Sometimes I have the trumpets play a harmony with the horns; if the root is C and the horns are playing C, I might have the trumpets play G - as one example. But outside of that I am pretty much stuck. This is of course extremely subjective - I know there is no right nor wrong here, nor is there only one way to do this. I just need some ideas and examples that I can use to learn how to better myself here. Like I said, i will get to the examples above tomorrow. But if anyone has any ideas here for the specific example I just gave - I would love to hear them. 

Thanks again!


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## rJames (Apr 23, 2015)

Hi DMarr82, I'm not expert... by a long shot. But I can get the job done now and then. (not always)

I'd rather you ask the question, "what do I need to do that can best be done with trumpets?'

Again, please have mercy on me, those of you who have studied orchestration... but I like to think of all the instruments as colors. Flutes can do things that oboes cannot and vice versa.

A snare drum is great at adding impact to a staccato string section because it adds attack (not that you always want that extra "umph.")

Strings have that thick warm sound (a lot of other sounds as well but I'm generalizing) and they don't ever need to breath.

What can the instruments of the orchestra do to render your piece?

Trumpets can add rhythm as a chord or monophonically. So, can trombones; or any instrument for that matter. Rhythm is key. You are playing a rhythm whether you like it or not.. it may be everybody plays the same note for a bar and them we move on to the next chord, but thats a rhythm. Get a bit creative with the rhythm in various sections always keeping in mind your goal for what you want to hear.

Trumpets can just come in when you need to crescendo the orchestra... maybe when you are pushing up to a new section.

All of the instruments have a function to help realize your piece.

Don't be boring and let the low brass play the same thing as low strings....well at least let them add some movement even if it is a slow movement or a rhythm.

Think of the orchestra as a way to emulate the timbres in the big fat sound of a great synth patch. :D There are amazing pitches, overtones, wind noise, percussive elements.. in all of the instruments but each adds a flavor. With orchestral instruments you can emulate a pulsing waveform, a rising pitch wheel, an opening Low pass filter.

Treat your virtual orchestra as a live orchestra. Don't bore the heck out of the trombone players or of the string players...give them something to play. (they don't have to all play, all of the time; just make it interesting for them)


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## Hannes_F (Apr 24, 2015)

DMarr82 @ Fri Apr 24 said:


> Let me give everyone a quick down and dirty example of one of the main areas where I need help. What to do with the trumpets when the horns are playing a melody. So, I have my percussion moving along, my upper strings playing staccato, lower strings playing long moving lines, the lower brass playing with the lower strings, and the horns are playing a melodic figure at the f (maybe ff) dynamic that is heard clearly. Now, I am stuck with what to do with the trumpets. Have them play in unison with the horns is about the only thing I can think to do without everything getting messy.



If you think it makes things messy then why not leave them away? 

Seriously, why does everybody need to play all the time?

For example after a while of going on like you described, you could stop everybody and have the trumpets alone. 

Then, you could have all the brass except horns with the trumpets as melody.

And the like ....


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## jamwerks (Apr 24, 2015)

DMarr82 @ Fri Apr 24 said:


> Let me give everyone a quick down and dirty example...


What are the woodwinds doing in this example, anything?


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## cmillar (Apr 24, 2015)

Just because you have all the instruments at your disposal, that doesn't meant they need to play all the time.

Being a brass player (trombone) myself, and having spent many years sitting in all kinds of ensembles and listening to everything, there's nothing worse than having all the brass play when you don't really need all the brass.

And to get realism, brass players have to breath (even in sample library music!)

So, write your sample instruments so they have some 'breathing space'... that'll be much more realistic.

FYI: brass players can always tell when an inexperienced, usually keyboard-only musician, has composed or arranged the music they're playing. There's usually nowhere to breath.... or a definite lack of concept of the fact that humans are behind the instruments... not 10 fingers that don't need to breath!


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## Rodney Money (Apr 24, 2015)

Here's what the trumpets (and woodwinds) do when everyone else is playing in "epic" mode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpngMjN6fmQ


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## Stradibaldi (May 2, 2015)

Studying JW scores has transformed the way I think about trumpets. o=< 

The trumpet is by far the loudest instrument and can cut through the whole rest of the orchestra. So JW often gives completely independent material to the trumpets. By independent I mean:

a) nobody is doubling them

b) they are following different rhythmic patterns from the entire rest of the orchestra

c) their parts often "interject" or "comment" on what everyone else is playing

He does this even while grouping all the other instruments into large unisons (like having all the high woodwinds playing flourishes in unison).

Here's a good example, listen to 6:44-7:15 of this track.



The key is he doesn't overuse the trumpets. It's short, sharp bursts to add color and excitement.

There is no need to combine tpts and hns, they fulfill different roles. The Raider's March from Indiana Jones doesn't need horns to back up the trumpets, and the friendship theme / Harry's Wondrous World from Harry Potter doesn't need trumpets to augment the horns.


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## skyy38 (Feb 3, 2016)

DMarr82 said:


> Hi. I need to figure out what to do with trumpets, when it comes to writing film score type material. That part of my game is very weak. Many times I have them double horns, but that's not all they are capable of doing, of course. I am familiar with the work of Williams, and how he uses the triple-tounge technique and fast funs and passages, but I am not really writing that kind of music.
> 
> I was hopeful that some of you can point me in the right direction. I know that there are very few film scores available on sheet music, but who knows of some film scores where you can hear the trumpets? Even if I cant see the sheet music, just hearing the trumpets and how they are used to interact with the rest of the orchestra, especially the rest of the breass, would be very helpful, I think.
> 
> And what else can I listen to and view the sheet music of, even if it is not film score related? Thanks.




A trumpet can be used softly as a single voice:



Of course it can be used, as octaves along with the rest of the brass to sound very heraldic:



Here's a nice layer of trumpets and flutes (or piccolos maybe?) ( starting @ 1:42 )



Used just for accents:



Trumpets, like any other instrument don't have to be used all the time, because they won't fit all the time.
A trumpet would not work well for the following:


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## Rodney Money (Feb 16, 2016)

skyy38 said:


> Trumpets, like any other instrument don't have to be used all the time, because they won't fit all the time.
> A trumpet would not work well for the following:



You poor soul, let me help you, lol, Harmon mute, stem halfway... Boom.


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