# Preview of Batman Begins!



## Niah (May 21, 2005)

10min Preview of Batman Begins with music score from Hans Zimmer and James Newton-Howard.

http://www.rustbucketbingo.com/batman.htm


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## choc0thrax (May 21, 2005)

Sounds like the usual Zimmer stuff. Can't touch Danny!


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## Aaron Sapp (May 21, 2005)

Little Jim is all grown up!







(dunno what that stuff in Japanese means...)


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## choc0thrax (May 21, 2005)

Who is that? Christian Bale?


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## Brian Ralston (May 21, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> Who is that? Christian Bale?



Christian Bale from EMPIRE OF THE SUN


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## Evan Gamble (May 22, 2005)

you should post a picture of Christian Bale Running around naked with a chain saw from "american Psycho"... :shock:


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## Niah (May 22, 2005)

http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0361862/ ... ey=0361862

Bale in "the machinist"(2004) . I don't know how he could loose so much weight and then gain them back in for batman.


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## His Frogness (May 22, 2005)

So Elfman isn't doing the score?

That's a crime. 

I could be totally wrong about this but I still think of the original Batman score as the first signature "modern" filmscore sound. All the ascending 3rds, which is also signature Elfman, seemed to pop up all over the place after that movie came out. And it seemed like it was that score that really brought back the popularity of the big orchestral sound.


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## José Herring (May 22, 2005)

I hate to burst anybody's bubble but this is a subject that just get's under my skin.

But.... all those ascending thirds (mediant relations) came from the orchestrator Scott Smalley who got it from Jerry Goldsmith who got it from a jazz technique made popular by John Coltrain who got it from a russian music theory guy named Nicolas Slominky.
http://eduweb.brandonu.ca/~students/fall-02/kristka77/jazz.html (http://eduweb.brandonu.ca/~students/fal ... /jazz.html)

I just took an orchestration class with Scott Smalley and for the Batman theme all he got was a tape with a melody(C,eflat,G,Aflat). Then Scott came up with that famous progression underneath. That goes from C minor to Aflat major. Scott then taught this technique to a few other composers that he works for. 

Remember Danny handn't done much in the way of films in those days. Though with the modern technology he's gotten a lot better at getting his ideas into a sequencer at least. 

Scott got the technique from the first Star Trek Movie which later became the theme for the Next Generation tv show. That whole theme progresses in thirds.

So it's been around for a long time.


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## His Frogness (May 22, 2005)

HEY!!!! WHERE'D MY BUBBLE GO!!!!!!?

You are indeed a wealth of information Jose. I wasn't aware of the 6 degrees of Nicolas Slominky. I guess I always thought it was Elfman's device because he uses it so much. 

Where do you learn all this stuff? Was it just a comprehensive study of music history that you happened to retain?


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## choc0thrax (May 22, 2005)

If you want to read about Scott Smalley and that Mediant Relations stuff just go to the VSL forum and look on like the third page of the orchestration section and theres a huge topic about it. Maybe I still don't understand the moving in thirds thing cause whenever I do it it sounds like crap.


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## Scott Rogers (May 22, 2005)

..........


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## His Frogness (May 22, 2005)

Well maybe Jose can expand on this, but through my own twiddling around I've found that it's more like switching keys through ascending minor thirds. And by using a raised 5th in the melody you can tie the two (or rather 4) keys together very well. 

This is what I was talking about


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 22, 2005)

Play something, repeat it up a minor third - that's the most basic shortcut there is! I don't think there's much to analyze.


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## José Herring (May 22, 2005)

Yeah, that's all I was talking about. I haven't read Slonimsky's book so I can't elaborate. It's next on my to study list.

But, it's basically a cycle of thirds rather than a cycle of 4ths or 5ths. 

I think it's fairly basic. The only thing that I do is progress all the way through. Like C, emin gmin, bmin or dim Dmaj fmaj back to C or take off in the relative min(amin) then back to C.

It's fairly basic. IMO. If there's more to it I'll let you know when I finish with the Slonimsky book.

edit: I'm still trying to get his name right. Slonimsky. Solmnski?? Oh, well, when I study it I'll give more info.

Also, the score to Basic Instinct uses a progression in thirds and forths. Hinged together by the sharp( augmented) iii chord in a harmonic minor scale. I used this technique in one of my scores and it's cool because you're constantly modulating. It's really unsettling.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 22, 2005)

My favorite scale for a lot of things is the one that goes 1, 1/2, 1, 1/2... Diminished whole tone, whatever it's called. That of course lends itself to modulation by a minor third, since the scale stays the same.

I'm in the middle of a cue like that right now, as a matter of fact, and I'm looking forward to finishing it when we get this first issue out the door!


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## dcoscina (May 22, 2005)

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but Elfman's BATMAN theme resolves from a minor I chord to a major II chord. Cmin to Dmaj. Not sure what everybody's talking about regarding cycling thirds. I always found cycling maj7th chords in a circle of 4ths was a nice '70's technique although I suppose this dates all the way back Bach if you really think about it....

Also, I always like moving to a final cadence on a min7th flat 5 chord to the tonic. Williams used to employ a lot of this, which probably accounts for why I like using it as a pivot chord myself. Oh, Shostakovich uses it to great effect in his 12th Symphony, mvmnt 1 right after the development section to bridge the recap to the theme section.

Now I'm rambling.....also suffering from inadequate sleep...


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## José Herring (May 22, 2005)

I don't know if you're wrong David. I just have the score for one paticular scene that has the theme in it. It goes from cminor to Aflat majore in the Brass and is the signature for the Batman theme at least the one that everybody recognizes.

We may be talking about different themes though.

Jose


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## dcoscina (May 22, 2005)

Hmmm. Well the central motif is (if we're in Cmin):

C, D, Eb, Ab, G, F#. thus it wouldn't sound right if the chord resolved to Abminor since the F# (aka Gb) would land on the flattened 7th degree. To my knowledge, I don't recall a part in the score like that....but then again, it's been a while since I listened to the whole thing.

Oh wait, I think you're talking about the build-up in the opening track right? Then there is a flat IV chord that Elfman (or whomever) used to build up to the expository section. My bad.


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## José Herring (May 22, 2005)

Yeah,

The C,D,Eflat are part of the Cmin harmony where D is a passing note. Then the Aflat major. Then back to Cmin with the g in the melody then Dmaj with fsharp in the melody.

So it progresses in thirds ending in a secondary dominant. 

As I see it.

Jose


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## Stephen Rees (May 22, 2005)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> My favorite scale for a lot of things is the one that goes 1, 1/2, 1, 1/2... Diminished whole tone, whatever it's called



'Octatonic' maybe (you end up with a scale with 8 notes in it)? Can anyone recommend some music written in that scale? I can't think what it sounds like. When we covered it at university, they played us some Benjamin Britten, which didn't grab me that much so I've never really bothered with it. You've piqued my interest now


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## Trev Parks (May 23, 2005)

Stephen Rees said:


> Nick Batzdorf said:
> 
> 
> > My favorite scale for a lot of things is the one that goes 1, 1/2, 1, 1/2... Diminished whole tone, whatever it's called
> ...



Shostakovitch was a fan. In fact, thinking of the 12th symphony I think you can find it in the first movement - although I don't have a recording or score to hand for reference. Mind you, that example could be the brother scale (1/2, 1, 1/2, 1 etc)! 

They're both essentially what Messiaen describes as Mode 2 from his Modes of limited transposition.


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## Stephen Rees (May 23, 2005)

Trev Parks said:


> Stephen Rees said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Batzdorf said:
> ...



Thanks Trev. I have a recording of Shostakovich 12th so will give that a listen.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 23, 2005)

Steven, you play it over a dominant 7 chord - it has b9 and #9 (which always go together) and #11. Ten billion jazz and fusion pieces use it.

I think you'll recognize it if you play it on a piano.

By the way, it starts with a half step in that context, not a whole step. Brain fart.


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## dcoscina (May 23, 2005)

I did a piano reduction of Shostakovich's 12 Symphony years ago. I think I have the full score lying around somewhere.


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## Edgen (May 24, 2005)

I don't know about you guys... But reading these posts about this music stuff, I feel like a complete moron!  Anyone else cruising in my boat of music theory 'tardness? 

btw.. that link no longer works.. anyone have an updated one? Interested in hearing a few clips from the film.

/j


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## PolarBear (May 25, 2005)

Only have PC so I can't check it but it seems Apple put on the HD-trailer on the Quicktime site (QT7 not out for PC yet):

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/hdgallery/batmanbegins.html (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/hdgaller ... egins.html)


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## José Herring (May 25, 2005)

Didn't we see already how batman began in the first Batman movie?

Seems like they're rehashing old territory.

Cheers,

Jose


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## Niah (May 25, 2005)

josejherring said:


> Didn't we see already how batman began in the first Batman movie?
> 
> Seems like they're rehashing old territory.
> 
> ...



All we see either in the comics or in the first film is bruce wayne watching his parents get killed and then...bang! - he turns into batman.
From the preview it seems that they wanted to explore more that and introduced a lot of new elements and characters. They even care to explain the reason his parents were killed.
Like in siper-man 1 and 2 this film shows a more modern batman at least by the look of Gotham and the car.


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