# Learning piano for composition



## Scott Moran (Jul 25, 2018)

A little background: I've played guitar for a few decades (self-taught, by ear, etc). I was always frustrated because I never really had a group of friends to 'jam' with, so I had a thought one day, 'screw it, I'm going to make my own music that I can accompany myself with'. This led down the rabbit hole that is VI orchestration and I'm hooked. I quickly realized two things, 1) my knowledge of music theory is dismal at best, 2) if I want to create music on a PC I need to learn how to play piano with at least some proficiency. 

So I called my sister who has played piano for 50 years and taught for 30 years and said 'I need some lessons'. The first goal was just learning to play on a simple level, so far we have done done the following:

1) Gone through Alfred's adult level 1 book.
2) Learned all major and minor keys in the circle of fifths (2-hand 2 octave scales, I-IV-V cadences, arpeggios for each I chord in the circle, and playing the scales in octaves).

My question is this, what should I focus on next? I feel like I should work on getting a bigger chord vocabulary, e.g. chords other than I-IV-V, augmented, diminished, 7th chords, and how they are constructed within a key.


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## S.M Hassani (Jul 25, 2018)

Check out these videos and learn to play + transpose the finger positions aka voicings from videos 2 and 3. I uncovered them myself through experimentation, but then found this video series later. This is an excellent way to play your ensemble patches and synth pads.

1: Basic intro:



2: "Close" triad chords:



3: "Open" triad chords:



4: The important "Chord Melody" Concept:



Watch them several times and explore his other videos.

Hope this helps!


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## Olfirf (Jul 26, 2018)

First thing I would recommend is primarily expand on pieces you play! Scales and cadences help to improve you technical abilities and getting some basic chord in your fingers. But all of that is very boring and uninspiring, if you devote to much time to it. It is much more helpful to learn more advanced pieces. By that I don't mean virtuoso pieces like Chopin Etudes, which would bare the same problem. But as an adult (and if you are anywhere close to you sisters age, you are probably more than adult  you can try to learn more complex music. I teach piano myself and from my library experience adults often need more time to improve their ability to play directly from sheetmusic. However, given a little musical experience before, they often can grasp more complex music and manage to learn it by heart. There are a lot of pieces, which I would consider technically easy to play, but they offer a lot to learn in terms of musical content, if you also devote time to the theory behind it. Maybe you could start with Prelude 1 in C major form Bach's well-tempered piano 1. You will have to work hard to learn it as a beginner, but it is doable with proper instruction. Structure the whole piece in numbered segments and learn all parts by heart by identifying the chords (major, minor, tensions and voicing) and try to relate those chords to the given key (wich degree of the scale is the chord from and is it diatonic or altered). Then, identify things like cadences (e.g. the first 4 bars are a cadence, but not in the same way you probably play yours right now), sequences, chords over pedal tones, etc. This way, you will have fun playing a nice piece and at the same time learn a lot about theory.


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## Scott Moran (Jul 26, 2018)

Thanks for the suggestions. I agree that I've struggled with the lack of musicality in everything I've learned so far. I'm just trying to think of it as gaining tools that I'll use later. If anyone has other suggestions for easier classical pieces it would be most welcome.


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## jhughes (Jul 26, 2018)

Scott Moran said:


> \
> So I called my sister who has played piano for 50 years and taught for 30 years and said 'I need some lessons'. The first goal was just learning to play on a simple level, so far we have done done the following:
> 
> 1) Gone through Alfred's adult level 1 book.
> ...



I think the music theory is important of course. Like for instance, you need to know how to play a ii-V-I in as many keys as possible. You need to know what a II7 generally goes to, etc.

However, here is something I give my students that's very straight forward that teaches you in the context of a song, regardless of the instrument:
1)Take a very basic/simple melody, let's say a nursery rhyme, or if you are beyond that, take a 16 bar pop tune. Play that melody in at least six different keys, more preferably.
I would say TRY to do it completely by ear at first after finding the starting note. If you can't do it by ear then think scale degrees and "transpose" that way. Do this a little each week with a different song, it doesn't even have to be the whole song.
2)Now take the chords to that same song and play it in multiple keys as well. Requiring one to think I-IV-V or numerically. Once again, pick a song that's easy, 3-5 chords max.

You will gain a lot out of this. It not only liberates your hearing but frees up your ability to think in multiple keys.

Next, I'd say you'd get a lot out of going through a few tunes in the Great American Songbook (Somewhere Over the Rainbow/Gershwin/Kern), playing a few tunes in a "chord-melody" style, with melody in the top and chords underneath. I think they are great at teaching you how chords move from one to another. Not to mention you'd be putting in wonderful melodies.
Theory and chord drills are great but why not increase your repertoire in the process. Contextual learning if you will.


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## shawnsingh (Jul 26, 2018)

Agreed with what others are saying - especially about getting comfortable with chords/inversions/2-5-1/scales/arpeggios on all keys.

I want to add that improvisation + reverse engineering is a great way to tie all the learning together. You can work with melodies/chords/rhythms that you're familiar with, and then every time you hear a chord or melodic gimmick that you like, grab the keyboard, figure out how to imitate it, play along with the recording, try tweaking it on your own, try it in different keys, and gradually assimilate that idea you liked into your toolbox. Doing that will help you grow your improv/keyboard skills, will help you decide which kinds of theory things or performance-skill things you'd like to drill into next, and it helps grow your "musical intuition" because of the way you have to think when trying to use new ideas at improvisation speed.


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## Scott Moran (Jul 27, 2018)

Can 


shawnsingh said:


> Agreed with what others are saying - especially about getting comfortable with chords/inversions/2-5-1/scales/arpeggios on all keys.



Can you elaborate on the importance of 2-5-1? It's been mentioned by a couple of people and I'm curious about it's use. 

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 27, 2018)

Well, you obviously have an ear for music. I am self taught and did quote well with writing music for many years, I spent more time learning about the technical side of things. This was definitely an asset, but you hit a certain level and things get pretty stagnant. I began formal piano and theory lessons a year ago, and it has opened up a whole new world of inspiration. Even though I have played multiple instruments (by ear) forever, it's a whole new world. Ditch the Alfred books (they are awful, and the technique explained is just plain bad). It can be pricey, but invest in professional piano lessons. Search for the perfect teacher, it make a world of difference. I found mine at the local University conservatory. Also, choose a DAW and start learning it inside and out. The time to start writing/recording is right now!


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## shawnsingh (Jul 27, 2018)

Scott Moran said:


> Can
> Can you elaborate on the importance of 2-5-1? It's been mentioned by a couple of people and I'm curious about it's use.



Ah, I may have accidentally emphasized 2-5-1 too much compared to any other chord progressions. But since you did ask about 2-5-1... 

The way I see it, historically 2-5-1 has been an important chord progression in a lot of music, and the idea of going "down by fifths" (2 an octave above) had some good feeling that way. These days, it seems like going "down by fourths" is more prevalent in pop and epic music, like 6-4-1-5. Examples to follow.

2-5-1 is still worth getting comfortable with, especially in a jazz context. It's a gateway to exploring a large number of useful variations, and it's a good way to illustrate the "exploratory game" you can play to try new things. And even if most popular kinds of music these days don't heavily use 2-5-1, it still does come up sometimes when the music needs to make a resounding definite resolution.

Examples...

(Each chord is written from lowest note to highest note, left to right, and then like chord --> chord --> chord )
Simple: 
D-F-A --> D-G-B --> E-G-C
Adding 7ths:
D-F-A-C --> D-F-G-B --> C-E-G-C
Removing the bass notes reveals how 2-5-1 can be similar to 4-5-1:
F-A-C --> F-G-B --> E-G-C
flat-9 (the A flat) in the 5 chord creates some interesting sound:
D-F-A-C --> G-D-F-Aflat-B --> C-E-G-A or C-E-G-B
Dropping the bass again, reveals a diminished chord instead of the 5 that opens up some very interesting possibilities:
D-F-A-C --> D-F-Aflat-B --> E-G-A-C
... and the amazing power of diminished is the symmetry it has - everything being a minor third - it's like a door that connects to a hallway of three more doors that allow you to substitute chords and then arrive in surprising places. It's is a far cry from 2-5-1, but from a music theory point, it didn't take too much exploration to get here:
D-D-F-A-C --> E-D-F-Aflat-B --> A-E-G-A-C
multiple 2-5-1 variations can be joined together in different ways to create quite rich progressions.
D-D-F-A-C --> G-D-F-Aflat-B --> C-E-G-A-C (hold) --> G-F-Bflat-D --> C-E-Bflat-C --> F-E-A-C
or another example of joining 2-5-1 sequences:
D-F-A-C --> D-F-G-B --> C-E-G-B --> C-E-G-A --> B-D-Fsharp-A --> B-D-E-Gsharp --> A-Csharp-E-A
2-5-1 is also found in the classic "turnaround" progression:
C-E-G-C --> A-E-G-Csharp --> D-F-A-D --> G-D-F-B --> (repeat)

Another chord progression I think is even more relevant in today's music is 6(minor)-4-1-5, like a "modern day minor turnaround" or something. This kind of progression goes down by fourths, and I think somehow pop culture these days prefers that sound. You can hear this kind of thing everywhere in pop and epic music these days. For example:

C-G-C-Eflat --> Eflat-G-B-flat-Eflat --> Bflat-F-Bflat-D --> F-F-A-C

So yeah, didn't mean to over-emphasize 2-5-1, but rather the idea of gathering a toolbox of such chords and having fun improvising with them, it could be a good way to learn and stay motivated about it. =)


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## Nao Gam (Jul 27, 2018)

Best music theorist on youtube
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1302D94F247600CD

Free sheets & their music for ear training/practice
https://www.8notes.com/piano/

Scales and modes
https://www.pianoscales.org/

I'm in a very similar situation with you, except younger and also learning guitar


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## Scott Moran (Jul 31, 2018)

shawnsingh said:


> Ah, I may have accidentally emphasized 2-5-1 too much compared to any other chord progressions. But since you did ask about 2-5-1...
> 
> The way I see it, historically 2-5-1 has been an important chord progression in a lot of music, and the idea of going "down by fifths" (2 an octave above) had some good feeling that way. These days, it seems like going "down by fourths" is more prevalent in pop and epic music, like 6-4-1-5. Examples to follow.
> 
> ...



Great explanation, thanks for this.


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## jonbonjon (Jul 31, 2018)

yeh im in the same boat myself i started off with ableton and making beatz but then i kind of opened up the pandoras box when i tried adding bass and lead to chords and i didnt and dont really know how to get them all to sit together.

i've got the alfreds books finished 1 and book 2 has some cool tunes in but im still very bad with reading music as I've had no formal education at all its all been self taught from a variety of books and youtube etc. 

one thing that has been quite good is piano marvel i think it has improved my reading quite abit. but im still shockingly bad with technique i went to a teacher but they kind of have a mentality of how they teach their kids for performance so they just get you to learn by rote. my theoretical understanding is way ahead of my technique.I think there must be a fair number of composers and producers who are'nt amazingly technically gifted. 

I suppose you just have to be good enough that you arent slowing yourself down a load in production. i think alot of music teachers are all about performance so they are really hung up on technicality but i just want to be good enough so i can get my ideas down and get the music in my head into the DAW. i've realised its really just about being able to hear intervals and interval relations so i guess training your ear is really the way forward. 

But yeh i guess you can never really 'know' piano. You can get technically better at it but in reality you're always going to be a little behind these people who started lessons at 5. It doesnt really matter though for composition as its the creativity rather than performance.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 1, 2018)

jonbonjon said:


> i've got the alfreds books finished 1 and book 2 has some cool tunes



Lol! Sure, if you were born in 1928! Those tunes are just plain awful, I really wish those books would get an update. They also need to revise the technique section at the beginning of book 1. There's a diagram of a fist holding a ball...apparently this is how your supposed to position your hands above the keyboard, yikes!


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## Scott Moran (Aug 1, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Lol! Sure, if you were born in 1928! Those tunes are just plain awful, I really wish those books would get an update. They also need to revise the technique section at the beginning of book 1. There's a diagram of a fist holding a ball...apparently this is how your supposed to position your hands above the keyboard, yikes!



Ha...I told my sister that if I went to play the Alfred songs at a nursing home everyone would be putting in their dentures to sing along.


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## Phillip996 (Aug 1, 2018)

Hey, wanted to answer because I have been in the exact position you have. Getting your profiency in PLAYING the piano at first is the key to success.

If you are looking for music to play. I can't reccommend this book enough: https://www.bookdepository.com/Jour...k0N0rhrgfhJhTAUdqADU-FlxyeM6VMDhoCIuwQAvD_BwE

It is four books in one. The pieces go from beginner to intermediate pieces and gradually adds difficulty.

I can also reccommend:
abrsm romantic sketchbook book 1-5

For expanding on your theory knowledge...

I found this book on basic music theory to be a gem, and it is a free pdf:
http://www.608dukes.com/uploads/8/5/5/1/8551447/ccp_166_-_cadet_music_theory_programme.pdf
It teaches musical terminology, how to read notation and rhythm. Basic harmony. Cadences. Transposition etc.
Comes with plenty of exercises.

You should get a book on chords:
https://www.bookdepository.com/The-...d6zuw3buB5nE1aIiXlnMk1yzcosV0ZLBoCvugQAvD_BwE
This book contains all scales/cadences/arpeggios you need

Another thing I want to ask you. What kind of music do you want to compose?
Is it for a orchestra like many of us here? Rock/pop music? Jazz?
The genre and what instrument you are writing for is important to what kind of theory you need to know.

Also I-IV-V is a chord progression, not a cadence.
Learn what a cadence is and the different kind of cadences and their functions.

After getting through basic theory. You should get a book on harmony and counterpoint.
Although expensive, it is the best and one of the most comprehensive books on harmony. Has a companion website with audio examples and exercises:

https://www.bookdepository.com/Harmony-Voice-Leading-Carl-Schachter/9781337560573


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## Scott Moran (Aug 1, 2018)

Phillip996 said:


> Hey, wanted to answer because I have been in the exact position you have. Getting your profiency in PLAYING the piano at first is the key to success.
> 
> If you are looking for music to play. I can't reccommend this book enough: https://www.bookdepository.com/Jour...k0N0rhrgfhJhTAUdqADU-FlxyeM6VMDhoCIuwQAvD_BwE
> 
> ...



Thanks for the links, I'll add them to my shopping list. Orchestral/cinematic music is what I'm looking into composing. I've done a few pieces already but it's painfully slow due to not having the piano proficiency and theory. I could only hang around A-minor for so long until I said 'these black keys sound more interesting'.


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## Scott Moran (Feb 14, 2019)

Alexandre said:


> So almost 6 months have past and I wondered if you had any feedback on your learning? What path did you choose in the end?



I'm still working through Alfred's for piano lessons, but we have started working through some other pieces to keep things interesting. I'm currently polishing Arabesque by Bergmuller, an arranged version of Claire de Lune (which drives me nuts, because I know what it's supposed to really sound like), and an easy'ish version of Burning Bush (from Prince of Egypt). My teacher (who is also my sister) is teaching from a performance perspective, e.g. she doesn't have formal composition training, so I feel like this is a weak spot in what I'm learning. It would be really awkward to 'fire' my teacher, but I may have to seek out someone with more formal compositional/theory training in the future. 

I'm also going through Alain Mayrand's 'Essential Composer Training' course at scoreclub.net. Absolutely love this course, it's opened my eyes in quite a few ways. I'm going through it pretty slowly and doing all the homework. I've tasked myself with writing something in every key from the circle of fifths, which is also taking quite a while. 

My only complaint about the course I'm on is there's really not much time left to sit down at the computer and make music with all of those expensive sample libraries I've accrued. I'm trying to take a long view of things and remember that I have to walk before I run.


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