# Dorico vs Logic Pro for making music with sample libraries and VST plugins?



## Mike Stone (Apr 19, 2022)

Hi,

I've been looking at Dorico 4 lately, and it seems like a promising semi-DAW solution. One of my biggest gripes with Logic Pro, is the lack of a proper notation functionality. I like to create symphonic and progressive rock, with contrapuntal and complex keyboard voices, and Logic's notation functionality is really dated at this point. It seems Apple is more concerned with catering to the Ableton Live-crowd in recent years.

My impression is that Dorico is becoming a good all-in-one option for classical and big band scores and mockups, but does it work for composing pop/rock using sample libraries and VST plugins (like Superior Drummer, synths, sample players) as well as effect plugins? I assume Dorico doesn't have the same automation flexibility or CPU efficiency yet, but how far along has Dorico come?

I can get the educational crossgrade offer, so I'm looking at purchasing Dorico, and see if it can at least replace Sibelius for my notation needs.

My dream would be having a notation software that can also function well as a DAW (ie. creating music using midi instruments and VST plugins). It would be very interesting to hear experiences from Dorico users here.

Thanks!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Apr 19, 2022)

Check out posts by user ed buller in here via Google like this:

"ed buller" dorico site:vi-control.net

(he’s a hardcore Dorico user)


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## Mike Stone (Apr 19, 2022)

Thanks, will do!


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## Fox (Apr 19, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> but does it [Dorico] work for composing pop/rock using sample libraries and VST plugins (like Superior Drummer, synths, sample players) as well as effect plugins? I assume Dorico doesn't have the same automation flexibility or CPU efficiency yet, but how far along has Dorico come?


I would love to hear what people have to say about this. I can't imagine Dorico would work well for this, but I say that as a Logic Pro user who has played around with Dorico 3.5, so I'm not speaking from a place of knowledge.

Anyone tried this? @ed buller


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## ennbr (Apr 19, 2022)

To answer your question yes you can use any VSTi plugin however they require Expression Maps or in the case of Superior Drummer 3 a Drum Map. Over the last few months I've put together several Expression Maps and some Drum Maps for a bunch of libs but it's very time consuming. 

With Superior Drummer 3 a drum map has to be created for each Kit you have purchased.


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## Saxer (Apr 19, 2022)

Dorico has some DAW features but is (still?) far away of a full production tool.
The mixer has sends but no group or routing function. The GUI update follows the notation window (so if you realtime record something MIDI the GUI waits until the score is updated until it reacts). You don't even have any audio tracks (at least needed as reference tracks). Quantize functions are basic (no swing etc). It's a notation app and notation is always the prime goal.

It's possible to 'make music' and even get professional results if you can live with all that. But you need to invest a lot of time to get a template that works for you and shouldn't be changed too much. 
In a DAW a new virtual instrument is just try and error a few times to get the feel for the way it reacts to mod wheel, velocity, latency, other CCs and key switches. In Dorico it's a day of setting up a new Expression Map and fine tune it to Doricos interpretation of note length, velocity, CC curves...


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## ed buller (Apr 20, 2022)

Hi

I have had some success in using DORICO instead of CUBASE to write and record Orchestral music. My goal was to replace SIBELIUS & NOTEPERFORMER. I've got pretty close and as I'm using sample libraries it sounds much better. 

However it is a steep learning curve and due to their sophistication the Expression maps are very fiddly. Percussion maps even more so. But with time you'll get great results. 

The biggest hurdle at the moments is dynamics. When sending out CC data , Dorico has many layers. FFFFFF seems to be 127. Which is a tad cumbersome. You can of course write in the CC data just like a DAW, but i am being stubborn and trying to get it to playback consistently using just markings and NO additional CC . 

As a DAW it has most of the basic features but isn't as comprehensive as CUBASE. But it's development is moving at a rapid pace now and I'm confident in a few years it will be the favoured software for people who want Notation as a front end. 

In the end it's fiddly because it's so powerful ( as software ) and has many ways of doing things and tries to be flexible. This does present a challenge when approaching it as a DAW first time but you'll get the hang of it pretty quickly. 

I'd have no hesitation in recommending it

best

ed


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## Mike Stone (Apr 20, 2022)

Thanks, that was very informative! It's great that Dorico is adapting DAW-features, and it seems like the future of notation IMO. Looking forward to trying out Dorico. Thanks.


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## Bollen (Apr 20, 2022)

I would have to say yes. I've been using it almost exclusively since version 3.5. However, there are few caveats: I don't use expression maps at all, I do everything manually. I use VE Pro, not only because of the tools and ability to mix and master, but more importantly because it makes Dorico work much faster and more responsive. For drums I use two lanes, a normal treble staff for playback and a notation one, that way I don't have to trouble myself with complex percussion maps. 

The only times I found myself going back to a DAW was when I needed to work with mixing audio files with MIDI. But even that can be bypassed by just dropping your audio into a Kontakt instance and have full control there...

Hope that helps!


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## ennbr (Apr 20, 2022)

Bollen said:


> I don't use expression maps at all, I do everything manually.


So your not using notation symbols to switch articulations in Dorico or is there another way


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## Gil (Apr 20, 2022)

Hello,
Very interesting discussion! 
You can also read this post in particular (and all the thread also, many info in it).
Perhaps an answer will come from NotePerformer 4: it will have better sounds, but no ETA yet...
Regards,
Gil.


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## Mike Stone (Apr 20, 2022)

Bollen said:


> I would have to say yes. I've been using it almost exclusively since version 3.5. However, there are few caveats: I don't use expression maps at all, I do everything manually. I use VE Pro, not only because of the tools and ability to mix and master, but more importantly because it makes Dorico work much faster and more responsive. For drums I use two lanes, a normal treble staff for playback and a notation one, that way I don't have to trouble myself with complex percussion maps.


Thanks, that's very interesting!



Gil said:


> Hello,
> Very interesting discussion!
> You can also read this post in particular (and all the thread also, many info in it).
> Perhaps an answer will come from NotePerformer 4: it will have better sounds, but no ETA yet...
> ...


I have Noteperformer, and have used it a bit in Sibelius, but the huge delay is not ideal for me (as I use midi recording as much as possible, being a pianist). I just downloaded Dorico, and my initial reaction is that the instrument sounds weren't the best, but I have to look more into it. Thanks!


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## ssnowe (Apr 20, 2022)

I am trying to move away from Logic to Dorico full time, so far not as successful as I would like. I would really like to get away from those big Logic instrument templates that need to address every possible instrument articulation and Dorico with notation seems to handle that well.

The reason for the slow transition is Dorico Expression maps - they require a substantial time commitment to make them work well. That and its challenging when you consider something like Heavyocity Damage 2, how do you or can you even put what it does into an Expression Map, haven't found a good way to do that yet.


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## youngpokie (Apr 20, 2022)

Bollen said:


> I use VE Pro, not only because of the tools and ability to mix and master, but more importantly because it makes Dorico work much faster and more responsive. For drums I use two lanes, a normal treble staff for playback and a notation one, that way I don't have to trouble myself with complex percussion maps.


I use VEPro with Dorico too (decoupled). It's all on a single machine and as close to an ideal setup as I've ever gotten. But my template is large and I use lots of modelled instruments - all of woodwinds and brass, a 4x wind size. And I'm discovering how CPU hungry VEPro is - when all is loaded my CPU is at 75% on idle!! I'm curious if you've seen similar and if so do you have a workaround?

Apologies to the OP, I hope I'm hijacking the thread. I'm more or less on the same path as @ed buller in terms of trying to get Dorico to do everything on its own from score markings. It's EXTREMELY fiddly to that with orchestral instruments in the classical context (for example I had to set dynamic ranges individually by instrument in expression maps to approximate relative FF and PPP that are more like real life). However, if you're using lots of compression then this is unlikely to be an issue for you. 

Personally I'm still more used to 3.5 and not too crazy about 4.0 interface, but I'll get there soon enough I think. The only other thing that bothers me is my graphics card - I have an Intel chip that's integrated with the CPU, not a dedicated card, and it really doesn't like following Dorico's playhead.


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## Saxer (Apr 20, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> But my template is large and I use lots of modelled instruments - all of woodwinds and brass, a 4x wind size. And I'm discovering how CPU hungry VEPro is - when all is loaded my CPU is at 75% on idle!! I'm curious if you've seen similar and if so do you have a workaround?


Are you using Audiomodeling instruments? They use a massive amount of CPU all the time (also when not playing a single note). I have some string-combis that use about 20 instances of Audiomodeling Strings. Sounds good but it's really heavy on CPU (Intel 12core here).


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 20, 2022)

I put Dorico aside because of the missing editors. I think they’re all supposed to be put back in the next update. The expression maps were mind-numbingly tedious, however. I hope this improves in the future. When Dorico is finally put back together, I’m going to try using the BBCSO Pro template to see how it sounds, since the Dorico team has already done that one. For now, my best notation playback remains StaffPad by a country mile.


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## youngpokie (Apr 21, 2022)

Saxer said:


> Are you using Audiomodeling instruments? They use a massive amount of CPU all the time (also when not playing a single note). I have some string-combis that use about 20 instances of Audiomodeling Strings. Sounds good but it's really heavy on CPU (Intel 12core here).


Indeed! The trouble is I really love the purity of AM sound and the near surgical ability to shape it, so I can't imagine giving them up. But I've read multiple threads here about VEPro being CPU intensive and the recommendation by VSL folks to reduce the number of audio channels in VEPro, so I suppose I assumed VEPro is a culprit.

But it occurred to me the other day to try setting up Cubase as my instrument server instead of VEPro - with Dorico sending out MIDI only via virtual MIDI cable. If anyone has any knowledge about Cubase vs VEPro when it comes to CPU consumption I'd appreciate it!


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## Mike Stone (Apr 22, 2022)

Very interesting to hear people's experience with Dorico as a semi-DAW replacement. I'm just going from what I'm reading, but it seems the program isn't quite there yet for that type of use, it's just way too cumbersome at this point.

I'm looking forward to familiarize myself with Dorico, and hopefully transition fully from Sibelius. It almost seems like the team made an effort to make "everything" different from Sibelius, so it's going to take some time I suspect. I'm curious to see if Dorico has more advanced arranger function like "explode" or "implode/piano reduction", ie. speading chords in a piano voice over several different wind or string instruments and visa versa. Those type of functions can be huge time savers.


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## ennbr (Apr 22, 2022)

Don't forget you can always give the demo a try especially now that it no longer requires the USB key


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## Bollen (Apr 22, 2022)

ennbr said:


> So your not using notation symbols to switch articulations in Dorico or is there another way


I treat it like a DAW, so I make a secondary lane to control purely keyswitches. Unfortunately there's a bug in the current 4.0.30 that only allows one instrument/staff to be channelled to a specific VI. So despite paying for the upgrade, I'm still stuck in 3.5!

There are plenty of arguments for not using EM for controlling VI, one day I will make a video or blog to cover this thoroughly. For now, I will just say that there are tons of things instrumentalists do that are not indicated on the score, but are sampled. Music is very contextual and EM are too rigid, despite Dorico's advancements in the field. In Sibelius I used to trigger KS via hidden texts, but it was absurd and I ended up with a clutter of uneditable text objects. I find the KS lane/staff and CC drawing to be extremely faster in comparison!



youngpokie said:


> And I'm discovering how CPU hungry VEPro is - when all is loaded my CPU is at 75% on idle!! I'm curious if you've seen similar and if so do you have a workaround?


That is very strange, my VE Pro uses 0% CPU when idle. I haven't tested a full orchestra in 4.0.30, but I have in 3.5 and it works fine in Decoupled mode. I have a large combination of modelled and regular sample libraries, but my computer is pretty old by now (over ten years). It's an early i7, with around 68 GB of RAM, running Windows 10. The largest orchestra I've tested was sectioned strings (i.e. 5 VI for each section), individual woodwinds (i.e. 2 Fl, 2 Cl, 2 Ob, 2 Bsn, 1 Bcl), individual brass (i.e. 2 Tp, 2 Tb, 1 Btb, 1 tuba & 4 horns), around 8-10 percussion instruments, 3-4 keyboard instruments (Synths, piano, celesta) and a SATB choir (4 VIs).

When I tried adding divisi strings it bottomed out on me! But a simple workaround was to export the audio and then drop it into a Kontakt instance. A sort of manual freeze, which by the way I'm campaigning on the forum, so please support it:https://forums.steinberg.net/t/will-freeze-channel-ever-be-an-option/780718?u=bollen

Of course now that I have Samplemodelling strings I can just do the divisi there with the ensemble size knob.


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## pinki (Apr 24, 2022)

I'm a longtime Notion user as I love its simplicity and directness. I have a creative synergy with Notion!
However for printing scores to give to musicians, which I am about to do, it's a no go. 

So....Dorico. I looked at Dorico back in version 1 and was unimpressed but now version 4 is looking very good indeed.
I don't know what Expression Maps are (and from reading this thread I don't want to!) so my question is this: can I completely ignore Expression Maps and use Dorico to draw in CC's and automation like a DAW i.e not connect the notational markings with VI playback? If that is the case I am very interested especially as the 'Insert Mode' is part of Dorico's note input for a while now (it is the reason I get my Notion synergy- Insert mode I think of as composition mode)


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## Bollen (Apr 25, 2022)

pinki said:


> can I completely ignore Expression Maps and use Dorico to draw in CC's and automation like a DAW i.e not connect the notational markings with VI playback?


Yes, that's how I use it!


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## pinki (Apr 25, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Yes, that's how I use it!


Thanks Bollen, good to know.


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## pinki (Apr 26, 2022)

@Bollen
one more question if I may...
Some notation programmes will always alter VST velocity when they encounter a dynamic or shorten a note by a percentage when encountering a staccato dot.
In the scenario we have just discussed above (no EM, all manual cc's) can I also tell Dorico's graphical markings to do nothing to playback..or even better... to interpret the staccato dot but not the dynamic!


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## youngpokie (Apr 26, 2022)

pinki said:


> to interpret the staccato dot but not the dynamic!


If you don't create a custom map and save it in the endpoint configuration, Dorico will always apply the "Default" expression map.






The Default map is needed to define a "Natural" patch (i.e. the default playing technique) and it uses note velocity for dynamics. But it also includes options to override the program-wide dynamic range settings, humanization settings, generic lengths of staccato/legato notes, etc.

I'm also curious how Bollen approaches this - in my experience you can restrict the note velocity in the Default map to the flat range of 64 min to 64 max. AFAIR, this will result in Dorico applying the same velocity for any dynamic from ppp to fff and then you will have to manually draw curves because everything will play with exactly the same volume regardless of the markings in the score.


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## Bollen (Apr 27, 2022)

pinki said:


> @Bollen
> one more question if I may...
> Some notation programmes will always alter VST velocity when they encounter a dynamic or shorten a note by a percentage when encountering a staccato dot.
> In the scenario we have just discussed above (no EM, all manual cc's) can I also tell Dorico's graphical markings to do nothing to playback..or even better... to interpret the staccato dot but not the dynamic!


No worries, whenever you need it! To answer your question, yes! Dorico gives you absolute freedom to control whatever you want to control. The way I use it might be a bit more complicated than needed because depending on what library I'm using I let Dorico handle some of the automation e.g. in SampleModelling I let Dorico control velocity because these control attacks and they tend to match dynamics with few exceptions. I also let it control staccato values, but I remove these if I'm using VSL.

So it will depend on the case, but as @youngpokie said, you can tell Dorico to do nothing or even help a little bit. The places to configure these are under the Expression map and Playback Options.

Feel free to ask any further questions.


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## pinki (Apr 27, 2022)

Excellent, that's really clear. Thanks.


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## Saxer (Apr 27, 2022)

Bollen said:


> So it will depend on the case, but as @youngpokie said, you can tell Dorico to do nothing or even help a little bit. The places to configure these are under the Expression map and Playback Options.
> 
> Feel free to ask any further questions.


Are Playback Options instrument/library specific or are this song parameters?


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## Bollen (Apr 27, 2022)

Saxer said:


> Are Playback Options instrument/library specific or are this song parameters?


Playback options are project specific and they seem to save specifically for each piece, unfortunately not flow independent. For library specific you want the Expression Map.


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## Saxer (Apr 28, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Playback options are project specific and they seem to save specifically for each piece, unfortunately not flow independent. For library specific you want the Expression Map.


Thanks!


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