# Which one to start with? Dune 3 - Synthmaster 2.9 - Parawave Rapid



## Azeroc

OK. So, I'm a total noob, just started getting my hands dirty (just a tad bit) into synths. I'm looking for an all rounder synth that would keep me busy for the future. Not planning on purchasing many synths, doesn't really stick with my philosophy which is to learn one and know every insights of it. Want to use it for a more hybrid scoring but also could be for any other electronic commercial or less commercial genres.

In terms of analog, yeah, Diva and Legend sound great, Diva has far more options and more tweakable. So, I'll probably end up with Diva

For the other digital synths, so far I tried Dune 3, Synthmaster 2.9, Parawave Rapid, Hive and Zebra 2, mostly going through presents and modifying them. Demo of them of course.
- *Dune 3* - love the interface, simple, sleek, easy to get around, LOVE the sound.
- *Synthmaster 2.9* - it's something about it that doesn't makes me feel comfortable, be it the interface or the sound. I feel that from the ones I tried, it has the weakest sound quality.
- *Parawave Rapid* - same as Dune, easy to get around, great effects, good UI, good sound overall (more towards electronic digital rather than analog), plenty of tweaks, not to mention 8 layers, each with it's own controls and oscilattors.
- *Hive* - feel that the sound is somehow inferior to Dune 3 and Rapid, a bit better though compared to Synthmaster. If Dune 3 has somehow a more analog sound and Rapid more digital, then Hive is somewhere in between regarding that. Don't really like the interface, too messy for my eyes.
- *Zebra 2 - *I feel overwhelmed by it, the presets sound good, great sound quality on par with Dune 3. Don't really know if that kind of modular interface will work with me though.

These are the ones that I narrowed down my choices, so maybe guys with more vast experience with them could point them to which one could accomplish the needs I mentioned on the long run without the need to switch to another new 200 $ synth and so on.

*Serum* - don't like the sound of it, at all, too Trance/EDM, as well as *Spire*, in the same category. *Omnisphere*, too expensive, especially for a beginner.

Planning on getting NI Komplete 12 which includes few synths as well, I can get it with 250 Euros with this 50% discount, I'm not decided yet on it.


Cheers guys and thank you for taking the time reading this


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## doctoremmet

Dune3 seems like the one that really speaks to you. It is generally considered a great synthesizer. You LOVE the sound. You already answered your own question.


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## Azeroc

doctoremmet said:


> Dune3 seems like the one that really speaks to you. It is generally considered a great synthesizer. You LOVE the sound. You already answered your own question.



Yes, if it was to narrow down to 2 of them, based on what I heard and how easy are to get by + the options, would be Dune 3 and Rapid. But that's just me, a beginner, maybe on the long run I'll find out they don't offer that much compared to let's say Zebra 2 (which I'm even afraid to really dig into ))


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## doctoremmet

Azeroc said:


> Yes, if it was to narrow down to 2 of them, based on what I heard and how easy are to get by + the options, would be Dune 3 and Rapid. But that's just me, a beginner, maybe on the long run I'll find out they don't offer that much compared to let's say Zebra 2 (which I'm even afraid to really dig into ))


In my experience, it doesn’t work that way. Just look at how for instance people “just” use a Juno 60. Apparently it is way more important to really get to know a synth and be able to do stuff with it (e.g. translate certain ideas to a patch on YOUR synth that you know well) than to have a gazillion options or a HUGE modulation matrix. Does an OB-X really sound inferior to a Matrix 12? Not to my ears. Dune3 has a cool architecture, and you won’t run out of options and cool sounds for ages. If you do anyway, expand your options and get a second synthesizer. By that time, you’ll know EXACTLY that you need three additional ramps and nine LFOs or whatever.


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## Azeroc

doctoremmet said:


> In my experience, it doesn’t work that way. Just look at how for instance people “just” use a Juno 60. Apparently it is way more important to really get to know a synth and be able to do stuff with it (e.g. translate certain ideas to a patch on YOUR synth that you know well) than to have a gazillion options or a HUGE modulation matrix. Does an OB-X really sound inferior to a Matrix 12? Not to my ears. Dune3 has a cool architecture, and you won’t run out of options and cool sounds for ages. If you do anyway, expand your options and get a second synthesizer. By that time, you’ll know EXACTLY that you need three additional ramps and nine LFOs or whatever.


I completely agree. That's why I mentioned that I want to learn one, know it's insights, strengths
and weaknesses and stick with it for a long time untill as you mentioned, I'll feel the need of a new one that offers something different or new. 
Thank you


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## Sunny Schramm

Azeroc said:


> Planning on getting NI Komplete 12 which includes few synths as well, I can get it with 250 Euros with this 50% discount, I'm not decided yet on it.



NI Komplete is completely against your philosophy  And there will be a lot of stuff you will never need, use or install. Diva or/and Dune 3 should serve you well 👌 Diva is imho the best sounding "classic" analog emulation - Dune 3 is more of an software version of the "virus ti" va-synth from access. For the hybrid-sound I think I would prefer Diva plus some good specialized effect-plugins.

BTW: which DAW do you use? Maybe there is already a good synth in it...


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## Azeroc

Sunny Schramm said:


> NI Komplete is completely against your philosophy  And there will be a lot of stuff you will never need, use or install. Diva or/and Dune 3 should serve you well 👌 Diva is imho the best sounding "classic" analog emulation - Dune 3 is more of an software version of the "virus ti" va-synth from access. For the hybrid-sound I think I would prefer Diva plus some good specialized effect-plugins.
> 
> BTW: which DAW do you use? Maybe there is already a good synth in it...


Regarding Komplete 12, that's why I still haven't decided yet, so many stuff in it that probably I won't need or use. It would be more for Kontakt full version + only a few other instruments. 

I agree about Diva, it sounds great, and seen a post in here with it for sale at 110$. 
As for my DAW, for now is *Cubase Elements 10.5*. Don't know how the synths are from Artist version.


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## Sunny Schramm

retrologue 2 and padshop 2 are really good. I recommend for upgrading cubase when an upgrade sale happens. not only for the synths and effectplugins - there are a lot of helpful features for the workflow and editing also.


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## Azeroc

Sunny Schramm said:


> retrologue and padshop 2 are really good. I recommend for upgrading cubase when an upgrade sale happens. not only for the synths and effectplugins - there are a lot of helpful features for the workflow and editing also.


Yeah, that's what I'm waiting for, a sale from Cubase, I know there are lots of missing features in the Elements edition


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## richmwhitfield

I think Rapid is a pretty underrated synth. It has wavetable and sample based OSCs and very soon, this month or next, will have granular functionality added (Rapid granular demo). CPU usage is very, very good. Drag and drop modulation.

I guess one area where it does lack is extra/3rd party presets, but you are going to be learning it and creating your own so this might not be an issue.

Another issue is I think it is NFR.

If you do buy it and have issues/questions drop me a PM and I might be able to help, otherwise there is a decent Facebook group.


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## Azeroc

richmwhitfield said:


> I think Rapid is a pretty underrated synth. It has wavetable and sample based OSCs and very soon, this month or next, will have granular functionality added (Rapid granular demo). CPU usage is very, very good. Drag and drop modulation.
> 
> I guess one area where it does lack is extra/3rd party presets, but you are going to be learning it and creating your own so this might not be an issue.
> 
> Another issue is I think it is NFR.
> 
> If you do buy it and have issues/questions drop me a PM and I might be able to help, otherwise there is a decent Facebook group.



As with Dune 3, with Rapid was almost instant "chemistry". I don't really mind not having 3rd party presets, as you mentioned as well, I want to learn my synth and do my own sounds. 
Yes, noticed the sample based OSC, really cool feature. Dune 3 also has wavetable edit and import.

Thanks for the feedback, will let you know on which one I've decided


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## vitocorleone123

I thought Hive2 oscillators sounded better than Dune 3, plus I liked the UI better. But it was close. If you liked Dune3, you can’t go wrong with it.


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## Azeroc

vitocorleone123 said:


> I thought Hive2 oscillators sounded better than Dune 3, plus I liked the UI better. But it was close. If you liked Dune3, you can’t go wrong with it.


Yeah, in terms of UI it comes down to personal preferences. I don't really enjoy an overcrowded UI, I'm better having multiple tabs rather than everything stuck into a single window. 

As for the sound, listening again to Dune, Hive and Rapid, I must say that Hive falls on the 3rd place for me. Somehow it feels restrained, a bit muted and less character compared to Dune.


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## vitocorleone123

That’s ok. Don’t forget Hive 2 has a couple meta settings for oscillators.

I compared all wavetable softsynth “saw” and “triangle” shapes with no effects and made my choice based on that. Similar to how I selected the OB-6: tone and character over features.

not saying the others are lacking! I’ve almost purchased Dune 3 several times, since.


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## mgnoatto

You can demo Dune 3
+1 to Cubase update, Padshop 2 it's amazing


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## DovesGoWest

Here’s what I have available excluding everything that comes with Cubase pro

SynthMaster2 - not the best ui but it has great sounds, leads and pads

SynthMasterOne - Using this a lot lately, good sounds and capable, great pads

Nexus2 - Used to use this a lot for EDM but not as much now

VPS Avenger - Replaced nexus for me if anything too complex but sound fantastic, leads and pads

Sylenth1 - Old faithful and great for leads and plucks


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## KarlHeinz

I know you dont ask for additional recommendation but when you take something like rapid as a workstation in your shortlist (which for me is something completely different then a "real synth" even if borders are blurring more and more) you should take the tone2 stuff in your considerations, especially the new Icarus 2:



https://www.tone2.com/icarus.html



And you can be sure there will be only updates and no new synths coming . This is the culmination of decades of devellopment and I am sure you can at least stay with this for years without coming to an end. Of course you will have to try the demo version(s), tone2 sound is love or hate, but for me thats a good thing.


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## bill5

I'm really surprised at the lack of Synthmaster support. One of the best synths I've ever used and I've used plenty. So versatile, great sound, great features.


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## Keith Theodosiou

Azeroc said:


> OK. So, I'm a total noob, just started getting my hands dirty (just a tad bit) into synths. I'm looking for an all rounder synth that would keep me busy for the future. Not planning on purchasing many synths, doesn't really stick with my philosophy which is to learn one and know every insights of it. Want to use it for a more hybrid scoring but also could be for any other electronic commercial or less commercial genres.
> 
> In terms of analog, yeah, Diva and Legend sound great, Diva has far more options and more tweakable. So, I'll probably end up with Diva
> 
> For the other digital synths, so far I tried Dune 3, Synthmaster 2.9, Parawave Rapid, Hive and Zebra 2, mostly going through presents and modifying them. Demo of them of course.
> - *Dune 3* - love the interface, simple, sleek, easy to get around, LOVE the sound.
> - *Synthmaster 2.9* - it's something about it that doesn't makes me feel comfortable, be it the interface or the sound. I feel that from the ones I tried, it has the weakest sound quality.
> - *Parawave Rapid* - same as Dune, easy to get around, great effects, good UI, good sound overall (more towards electronic digital rather than analog), plenty of tweaks, not to mention 8 layers, each with it's own controls and oscilattors.
> - *Hive* - feel that the sound is somehow inferior to Dune 3 and Rapid, a bit better though compared to Synthmaster. If Dune 3 has somehow a more analog sound and Rapid more digital, then Hive is somewhere in between regarding that. Don't really like the interface, too messy for my eyes.
> - *Zebra 2 - *I feel overwhelmed by it, the presets sound good, great sound quality on par with Dune 3. Don't really know if that kind of modular interface will work with me though.
> 
> These are the ones that I narrowed down my choices, so maybe guys with more vast experience with them could point them to which one could accomplish the needs I mentioned on the long run without the need to switch to another new 200 $ synth and so on.
> 
> *Serum* - don't like the sound of it, at all, too Trance/EDM, as well as *Spire*, in the same category. *Omnisphere*, too expensive, especially for a beginner.
> 
> Planning on getting NI Komplete 12 which includes few synths as well, I can get it with 250 Euros with this 50% discount, I'm not decided yet on it.
> 
> 
> Cheers guys and thank you for taking the time reading this


I have quite a few vst synths including Dune 2 and 3 and my go to is Dune 3.


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## doctoremmet

bill5 said:


> I'm really surprised at the lack of Synthmaster support. One of the best synths I've ever used and I've used plenty. So versatile, great sound, great features.


If it is any consolation: Synthmaster 2.9 may be my favorite synth ever. I also got One recently, so I can now program on the go on my iPad and use the sounds on my PC. There’s something about the KV331 stuff that makes its sounds really stand out for me.


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## zvenx

I really like the sound of Synthmaster, but I always feel like it is is 'almost' there but not quite....Always has outstanding bugs that are not addressed for awhile..

Hopefully Bulent changes that as i do think it is a really good sounding synth.


You already x'ed out my first choice.... Omnisphere...... it is indeed relatively expensive but to me brings so much to the table.

My second choice would be Zebra which indeed can be overwhelming.... But if you plan to spend years with just one or two synths, you will conquer it. It really is a wide encompassing synth.



Dune 3 is indeed a fine sounding synth (my issue is the preset browser), but it you are mostly going to 'roll' your own this would be less a problem for you. I am not sure I would have chosen it if I had to choose only one synth (and Diva) to be in my arsenal.

I myself am hoping Rapid goes on sale soon (with 1.8 which brings the granular aspect to it) a very capable synth, with supposed very low cpu. Also, not sure I would choose it as a one synth though.

If Avenger used less Cpu, it would also have been on my recommended short list as a one synth that can do so much.


my two cents.
rsp


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## AmbientMile

zvenx said:


> ...You already x'ed out my first choice.... Omnisphere...... it is indeed relatively expensive but to me brings so much to the table...



Whenever I see someone mention the price of Omnisphere, I immediately go to the times I dropped $2000 on say, a 6 voice synth in the early 80s, or even more money when I bought the Roland Fantom, or some other piece of hardware. Then I think of the comparison of those to what Omnisphere can do, it makes me chuckle a bit! But at the same time, dropping money on a shiny new piece of hardware you can hold, versus a bunch of 1s and 0s is quite different in itself.


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## gsilbers

Azeroc said:


> OK. So, I'm a total noob, just started getting my hands dirty (just a tad bit) into synths. I'm looking for an all rounder synth that would keep me busy for the future. Not planning on purchasing many synths, doesn't really stick with my philosophy which is to learn one and know every insights of it. Want to use it for a more hybrid scoring but also could be for any other electronic commercial or less commercial genres.
> 
> In terms of analog, yeah, Diva and Legend sound great, Diva has far more options and more tweakable. So, I'll probably end up with Diva
> 
> For the other digital synths, so far I tried Dune 3, Synthmaster 2.9, Parawave Rapid, Hive and Zebra 2, mostly going through presents and modifying them. Demo of them of course.
> - *Dune 3* - love the interface, simple, sleek, easy to get around, LOVE the sound.
> - *Synthmaster 2.9* - it's something about it that doesn't makes me feel comfortable, be it the interface or the sound. I feel that from the ones I tried, it has the weakest sound quality.
> - *Parawave Rapid* - same as Dune, easy to get around, great effects, good UI, good sound overall (more towards electronic digital rather than analog), plenty of tweaks, not to mention 8 layers, each with it's own controls and oscilattors.
> - *Hive* - feel that the sound is somehow inferior to Dune 3 and Rapid, a bit better though compared to Synthmaster. If Dune 3 has somehow a more analog sound and Rapid more digital, then Hive is somewhere in between regarding that. Don't really like the interface, too messy for my eyes.
> - *Zebra 2 - *I feel overwhelmed by it, the presets sound good, great sound quality on par with Dune 3. Don't really know if that kind of modular interface will work with me though.
> 
> These are the ones that I narrowed down my choices, so maybe guys with more vast experience with them could point them to which one could accomplish the needs I mentioned on the long run without the need to switch to another new 200 $ synth and so on.
> 
> *Serum* - don't like the sound of it, at all, too Trance/EDM, as well as *Spire*, in the same category. *Omnisphere*, too expensive, especially for a beginner.
> 
> Planning on getting NI Komplete 12 which includes few synths as well, I can get it with 250 Euros with this 50% discount, I'm not decided yet on it.
> 
> 
> Cheers guys and thank you for taking the time reading this




you get Massive synth w komplete so that can work for you.


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## bill5

I can never keep their names and what "level" they're at straight. My only complaint.  So odd. Why not just call the first one "Synthmaster" and the upgrade "Synthmaster Pro" or silver/gold/diamond etc.


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## doctoremmet

bill5 said:


> I can never keep their names and what "level" they're at straight. My only complaint.  So odd. Why not just call the first one "Synthmaster" and the upgrade "Synthmaster Pro" or silver/gold/diamond etc.


Well that’s because the one is not an update of the other. Both are separate synths.


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## Azeroc

Thanks fellas for the insights. As few of you suggested, I upgraded to Cubase Artist and automatically to Pro (Steinberg latest deal till the end of the month). 
Got in touch with Parawave and they said they'll have a sale this month with the release of 1.8, don't know the exact date though. Dune 3 is still my fav in terms of sound, the guys at Synapse know what they're doing. 
Have to give it a try to Icarus 2.


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## sean8877

I prefer the sound of Synthmaster One to Synthmaster Two, as doctoremmet mentioned they are two completely different synths. SM One is also on sale for $49 right now.


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## doctoremmet

Sunny Schramm said:


> retrologue 2 and padshop 2 are really good. I recommend for upgrading cubase when an upgrade sale happens. not only for the synths and effectplugins - there are a lot of helpful features for the workflow and editing also.


Both are excellent. If you don’t have Cubase: Retrologue 2 can be had for $19 over at KnobCloud right now.


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## Azeroc

doctoremmet said:


> Both are excellent. If you don’t have Cubase: Retrologue 2 can be had for $19 over at KnobCloud right now.


Upgraded today to Cubase Artist and got free upgrade to Pro


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## bill5

doctoremmet said:


> Well that’s because the one is not an update of the other. Both are separate synths.


I'm not talking about SM 1 vs SM 2. I'm talking about something called SM "player" and then something that's simply SM which is an upgrade (and I think there's another upgrade from that but not sure). 

And if SM1 and SM 2 are totally separate synths, why give them almost exactly the same name? Just poor marketing IMO (their web site sucks as well). But if that's the worst I have to worry about...


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## Secret Soundworks

DUNE 3 and RAPID are the ones I currently use the most. DUNE to me has an amazing sound that I love, very "warm", lush. The oscillators sound amazing, the filters are still imo by far the best in any software synth (u-he also have quite nice ones) and in a league of their own, the onboard effects are also really nice (even has a shimmer reverb).
One big con about it would be the workflow for me. It's easy to learn it and the layout is pretty straightforward but the workflow isnt very intuitive or that fun. Its not that visual, and only not that long ago got a right-click-to-modulate feature. I wish it had drag and drop modulation and some more visual feedback as to what the modulation is doing at least, without having to go look in the matrix.

For VA synthesis I love it because of its amazing sound quality. It can also do some nice FM sounds, wavetable synthesis which is more of a bonus tbh (but it has a pretty comprehensive wavetable editor and lets you draw up to 200 of your own waveforms and you can the export those wavetables). So overall its pretty powerful. It also has the layer system. No sample playback or manipulation.

Recently got back to using RAPID again and going more in depth with it. This is also a beast synth. Different sound compared to DUNE. Workflow is more satisfying, can do wavetable, FM, has various cool unique oscillator effects and all kinds of cool general effects (really nice lush reverbs too), you can even use the FX as a standalone plugin and drop them on your other instruments or libraries. It has a really sick resynthesis feature, just drop in your sample and it will make a perfectly looped cool texture out of it. It's going to get a free granular synthesis update this month as well (cant wait!). I definitely prefer it to a lot of other workstation synths like Avenger - better and faster, more fun workflow and layout, much lower CPU usage, better effects and overall sound imo.

Just today I was making some patches in RAPID and got a little inspired and made a little cinematic demo out of them. You can check it out to get an idea of RAPID's sound, I'm linking it down below 

I love DUNE mainly for its sound and satisfying filters, I use it mainly for general VA subtractive synthesis and typical sounds (arps, leads, pads, etc.)

I love RAPID for its workflow and huge featureset, and if I want to make some more exotic sounds or import and manipulate samples (resynthesis and soon granular too)


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## babylonwaves

@Azeroc

There is no such thing as a synth that sounds Trancy. Presets do, not the synth by definition. There are genre defining synth and they might sound so (trancy) but that's because they've opened a door which was closed before.

Also, a UI is not messy because it's complex. Yes, Hive take a bit to get used to (and a good tutorial is 90% of that) but the UI is not messy. It's actually great but nothing you should start with. It's just not strictly as simple as a substractive synthesis synth of the olden days (like the ones DIVA imitates).

Download a shareware/freeware synth and learn how to program. It'll costs you close to nothing and _then_ you can take those decision.

Good luck!


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## Azeroc

Secret Soundworks said:


> DUNE 3 and RAPID are the ones I currently use the most. DUNE to me has an amazing sound that I love, very "warm", lush. The oscillators sound amazing, the filters are still imo by far the best in any software synth (u-he also have quite nice ones) and in a league of their own, the onboard effects are also really nice (even has a shimmer reverb).
> One big con about it would be the workflow for me. It's easy to learn it and the layout is pretty straightforward but the workflow isnt very intuitive or that fun. Its not that visual, and only not that long ago got a right-click-to-modulate feature. I wish it had drag and drop modulation and some more visual feedback as to what the modulation is doing at least, without having to go look in the matrix.
> 
> For VA synthesis I love it because of its amazing sound quality. It can also do some nice FM sounds, wavetable synthesis which is more of a bonus tbh (but it has a pretty comprehensive wavetable editor and lets you draw up to 200 of your own waveforms and you can the export those wavetables). So overall its pretty powerful. It also has the layer system. No sample playback or manipulation.
> 
> Recently got back to using RAPID again and going more in depth with it. This is also a beast synth. Different sound compared to DUNE. Workflow is more satisfying, can do wavetable, FM, has various cool unique oscillator effects and all kinds of cool general effects (really nice lush reverbs too), you can even use the FX as a standalone plugin and drop them on your other instruments or libraries. It has a really sick resynthesis feature, just drop in your sample and it will make a perfectly looped cool texture out of it. It's going to get a free granular synthesis update this month as well (cant wait!). I definitely prefer it to a lot of other workstation synths like Avenger - better and faster, more fun workflow and layout, much lower CPU usage, better effects and overall sound imo.
> 
> Just today I was making some patches in RAPID and got a little inspired and made a little cinematic demo out of them. You can check it out to get an idea of RAPID's sound, I'm linking it down below
> 
> I love DUNE mainly for its sound and satisfying filters, I use it mainly for general VA subtractive synthesis and typical sounds (arps, leads, pads, etc.)
> 
> I love RAPID for its workflow and huge featureset, and if I want to make some more exotic sounds or import and manipulate samples (resynthesis and soon granular too)



You read my mind and I couldn't have put it better. Yes, I think Dune 3 and Rapid complement each other very well and they'll sit very well one next to each other. Nice demo btw!


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## Azeroc

babylonwaves said:


> @Azeroc
> 
> There is no such thing as: a synth sound Trancy. Presets do, not the synth by definition. There are genre defining synth and they might sound so (trancy) but that's because they've opened a door which was closed before.
> 
> Also, a UI is not messy because it's complex. Yes, Hive take a bit to get used to (and a good tutorial is 90% of that) but the UI is not messy. It's actually great but nothing you should start with. It's just not strictly as simple as a substractive synthesis synth of the olden days (like the ones DIVA imitates).
> 
> Download a shareware/freeware synth and learn how to program. It'll costs you close to nothing and _then_ you can take those decision.
> 
> Good luck!


You may be right with "trancy" sound that there is no such thing and probably it more depends on how it is being used but having listened to a few VS, there are noticeable differences in how the sound is processed (this coming down to how the software was written by coders). 

In terms of UI, agree to disagree. This comes down to personal preferences and having worked for over a decade in graphics industry, I can tell immediately which one will suit me best or not. If I need to watch tutorials on how to do something that I know how to achieve it fast in another software that is also new to me, then something is wrong with that UI, hence the term "messy" which may be an exaggerated term but it shows that the software is not that straightforward compared to others. 
Yes, messy is not complex. Rapid is complex but not messy. I think that having that one window approach, sometimes is poorly implemented, for me Hive is an example of that. 

Again, this is just my personal opinion and for others is not a valid point. What the thread was and actually how many threads are, is what actually suits one best.


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## bill5

babylonwaves said:


> There is no such thing as: a synth sound Trancy.


Wow someone else gets it, thank you


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## Monkberry

bill5 said:


> I'm really surprised at the lack of Synthmaster support. One of the best synths I've ever used and I've used plenty. So versatile, great sound, great features.


Totally agree on Synthmaster 2.9, it is a great sounding synth and very capable of holding its own with the more popular names. I have narrowed my "go to" synths down to Synthmaster, Zebra 2, Omnisphere, original Alchemy, Retrologue, Spire & Sylenth. I demoed Dune 2 and thought it was pretty awesome but at that point I did not feel the need over what I already had. I will say that nothing competes (my opinion) with Omnisphere for diversity, depth and quality.


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## Jkist

As someone who was in your shoes not terribly long ago, I can make a few recommendations!

I dove hard into software synths, and now I own more than I will ever need. I've got ANA2, Sylenth1, Massive, Massive X, Omnisphere, Pigments, Serum, and SynthmasterOne. Rapid is going to be my next purchase once it goes on sale. Someone send help.

There is something I personally really value, which I will define as "real-time visual feedback" (RVF henceforth). in other words, you play something and the synth reacts visually to your inputs. Whether this is seeing LFO modulation actually animated and reflected in the GUI, or seeing wave forms when you play something, this is something I really value because it makes the synth feel more like an actual instrument. But more than this, it can give you visual queues as to how the changes you are making are affecting the sounds coming out, WHICH IS HUGE as a beginner. Especially when it comes to assigning parameters to be modulated.

Anyways here is my scoring 1-10 on how intuitive I found each synth to be.

*Massive X: 1/10*
Massive X can create some absolutely insane sounds, and it has a very hi-fi sound to my ears. But the user experience for me was horrendous. No visual feedback anywhere, and the layout and workflow seems completely alien compared to any other synth I've worked with. I am sure if you put in the time you could create some amazing stuff with it. ZERO RVF.

*Omnisphere: 6/10*
This is a bit unfair because Omnisphere is so much more than a simple synth. Because its more a ROMPLER, the interface and workflow can feel a bit foreign when coming from other synths, but its all there (oscillators, ADSR envelopes, LFOs). Its just laid out differently, but once you get the hang of it, its very straightforward. Decent RVF.

*Massive: 6/10*
Massive has a much more familiar layout and workflow, but it looks and feels incredibly dated to me when compared to other newer synths. Still has fantastic sound and capabilites, but you have better options as a beginner. Very little RVF.

*Spire: 6/10*
Spire is an amazing synth with a lot of capability, but its been around for a minute now. I found the layout and workflow a bit confusing, but overall its pretty good. However, there is basically no RVF.

*Synthmaster One: 7/10*
Synthmaster One is still fairly new to me, I haven't owned it very long at all. The interface is a bit "busy", its kind of a lot to digest. However, its all laid out very logically, and there is excellent RVF throughout. Plus its really cheap, especially right now ($50). This would be a strong place to start IMO.

*Dune 3: 7/10*
Dune 3 has a pretty standard layout and interface, but its well designed and fun to use. Its VERY reminiscent of Sylenth1. Not a bad place to start, and obviously this synth is well-regarded. Not a lot of RVF though.

*Sylenth1: 8/10*
Sylenth1 is almost like an "analog classic", but in software synth form. Its been around forever, and its proven itself over and over. The layout is incredibly straightforward and pretty intuitive. However, I knock it because of its lack of RVF. It drives me crazy that there is no visual indication of how much things are being modulated, especially since Sylenth has this weird thing where knobs only modulate a percentage of other knobs...still though, this is an amazing choice for a beginner because its a simple synth that isn't super feature heavy, and has a TON of support as far as tutorials go. Plus with a "rent to own" plan of under $10 a month, this might just be THE gateway synth for beginners.

*Hive 2: 8/10*
Hive 2 just looks so modern and cool, but its almost overwhelming how much stuff is on screen on the main interface. But its inspiring to use and explore, and it has some awesome RVF! Its a synth that you open up and just want to play with, because the UI is so engaging.

*ANA2: 8.5/10*
ANA2 is one of my favorite synths at the moment. It is very thoughtfully designed, and the layout is logical and clean. Slate Digital has an entire masterclass course on how to use this synth, as well as synths in general, so you could really boost your synthesizer mastery if you wanted to. ANA2 also has some really incredible features, like their Chord Memory Device. Its got good RVF, but some things aren't completely animated.

*Serum: 9/10*
Serum is a household name by now. But there are reasons for that. One of them is just how intuitive the workflow is in this one. I love the tabs, and the overall layout. I think this is a good choice for beginners, partly because its well designed, and partly because of the VAST support and youtube tutorials out there for mastering literally every aspect of this synth. Also there is some really awesome RVF in this one.

*Rapid: 9/10*
I find Rapid's UI to be very easily digestable and straightforward. Plus it runs at 60FPS, IT LOOKS SO SMOOTH. I don't know why, but this one just feels like an instrument to me, rather than just a program. Its been really fun to use so far, and I am really digging the workflow. RVF is some of the best I've seen. Seems like a top contender to me.

*Pigments: 9/10*
Pigments is BEAUTIFUL and very intuitive to use. The design and layout is easy to digest, and inspiring to interact with. There is RVF literally everywhere, if something is being modulated, or affected, there is visual evidence of this, and that makes it really fun and easy to use. Its also incredibly powerful. This was my first real synth, and I still love it.


Well there you go. TLDR I think any of the synths I rated at 8 or above would be fantastic choices. Even the ones rated at 7 would be safe places to start.

Keep in mind these ratings have NOTHING to do with sound, soundwise I would have rated them very differently, but none of them would score below a 7 in my book. In other words, you should download demos of as many synths as you can, and choose the one that speaks to you the most! But maybe start with my top recommendations


----------



## Azeroc

Jkist said:


> As someone who was in your shoes not terribly long ago, I can make a few recommendations!
> 
> I dove hard into software synths, and now I own more than I will ever need. I've got ANA2, Sylenth1, Massive, Massive X, Omnisphere, Pigments, Serum, and SynthmasterOne. Rapid is going to be my next purchase once it goes on sale. Someone send help.
> 
> There is something I personally really value, which I will define as "real-time visual feedback" (RVF henceforth). in other words, you play something and the synth reacts visually to your inputs. Whether this is seeing LFO modulation actually animated and reflected in the GUI, or seeing wave forms when you play something, this is something I really value because it makes the synth feel more like an actual instrument. But more than this, it can give you visual queues as to how the changes you are making are affecting the sounds coming out, WHICH IS HUGE as a beginner. Especially when it comes to assigning parameters to be modulated.
> 
> Anyways here is my scoring 1-10 on how intuitive I found each synth to be.
> 
> *Massive X: 1/10*
> Massive X can create some absolutely insane sounds, and it has a very hi-fi sound to my ears. But the user experience for me was horrendous. No visual feedback anywhere, and the layout and workflow seems completely alien compared to any other synth I've worked with. I am sure if you put in the time you could create some amazing stuff with it. ZERO RVF.
> 
> *Omnisphere: 5/10*
> This is a bit unfair because Omnisphere is so much more than a simple synth. Because its more a ROMPLER, the interface and workflow can feel a bit foreign when coming from other synths, but its all there (oscillators, ADSR envelopes, LFOs). Its just laid out differently, but once you get the hang of it, its very straightforward. Almost no RVF.
> 
> *Massive: 6/10*
> Massive has a much more familiar layout and workflow, but it looks and feels incredibly dated to me when compared to other newer synths. Still has fantastic sound and capabilites, but you have better options as a beginner. Very little RVF.
> 
> *Spire: 6/10*
> Spire is an amazing synth with a lot of capability, but its been around for a minute now. I found the layout and workflow a bit confusing, but overall its pretty good. However, there is basically no RVF.
> 
> *Synthmaster One: 7/10*
> Synthmaster One is still fairly new to me, I haven't owned it very long at all. The interface is a bit "busy", its kind of a lot to digest. However, its all laid out very logically, and there is excellent RVF throughout. Plus its really cheap, especially right now ($50). This would be a strong place to start IMO.
> 
> *Dune 3: 7/10*
> Dune 3 has a pretty standard layout and interface, but its well designed and fun to use. Its VERY reminiscent of Sylenth1. Not a bad place to start, and obviously this synth is well-regarded. Not a lot of "live visual feedback" though, which I really like for whatever reason.
> 
> *Sylenth1: 8/10*
> Sylenth1 is almost like an "analog classic", but in software synth form. Its been around forever, and its proven itself over and over. The layout is incredibly straightforward and pretty intuitive. However, I knock it because of its lack of RVF. It drives me crazy that there is no visual indication of how much things are being modulated, especially since Sylenth has this weird thing where knobs only modulated a percentage of other knobs...still though, this is an amazing choice for a beginner because its a simple synth that isn't super feature heavy, and has a TON of support as far as tutorials go. Plus with a "rent to own" plan of under $10 a month, this might just be THE gateway synth for beginners.
> 
> *Hive 2: 8/10*
> Hive 2 just looks so modern and cool, but its almost overwhelming how much stuff is on screen on the main interface. But its inspiring to use and explore, and it has some awesome RVF! Its a synth that you open up and just want to play with, because the UI is so engaging.
> 
> *ANA2: 8.5/10*
> ANA2 is one of my favorite synths at the moment. It is very thoughtfully designed, and the layout is logical and clean. Slate Digital has an entire masterclass course on how to use this synth, as well as synths in general, so you could really boost your synthesizer mastery if you wanted to. ANA2 also has some really incredible features, like their Chord Memory Device. Its got good RVF, but some things aren't completely animated.
> 
> Rapid: 9/10
> I find Rapid's UI to be very easily digestable and straightforward. Plus it runs at 60FPS, IT LOOKS SO SMOOTH. I don't know why, but this one just feels like an instrument to me, rather than just a program. Its been really fun to use so far, and I am really digging the workflow. RVF is some of the best I've seen. Seems like a top contender to me.
> 
> *Serum: 9/10*
> Serum is a household name by now. But there are reasons for that. One of them is just how intuitive the workflow is in this one. I love the tabs, and the overall layout. I think this is a good choice for beginners, partly because its well designed, and partly because of the VAST support and youtube tutorials out there for mastering literally every aspect of this synth. Also there is some really awesome RVF in this one.
> 
> *Pigments: 9/10*
> Pigments is BEAUTIFUL and very intuitive to use. The design and layout is easy to digest, and inspiring to interact with. There is RVF literally everywhere, if something is being modulated, or affected, there is visual evidence of this, and that makes it really fun and easy to use. Its also incredibly powerful. This was my first real synth, and I still love it.
> 
> 
> Well there you go. TLDR I think any of the synths I rated at 8 or above would be fantastic choices. Even the ones rated at 7 would be safe places to start.
> 
> Keep in mind these ratings have NOTHING to do with sound, soundwise I would have rated them very differently, but none of them would score below a 7 in my book. In other words, you should download demos of as many synths as you can, and choose the one that speaks to you the most! But maybe start with my top recommendations



Thank you for de taking the time to write the entire message. I do agree with you, at least on the ones I tried and have to agree regarding the visual feedback you get from them. Yes, Dune 3 doesn't give you that much feedback as Rapid or Serum does. 

I do feel that I misjudged Serum and I think I should give it a try. Haven't tried ANA2, might give that one also a go. 

Curious to see in terms of sound, what your scoring would be


----------



## Pier

Jkist said:


> As someone who was in your shoes not terribly long ago, I can make a few recommendations!
> 
> I dove hard into software synths, and now I own more than I will ever need. I've got ANA2, Sylenth1, Massive, Massive X, Omnisphere, Pigments, Serum, and SynthmasterOne. Rapid is going to be my next purchase once it goes on sale. Someone send help.
> 
> There is something I personally really value, which I will define as "real-time visual feedback" (RVF henceforth). in other words, you play something and the synth reacts visually to your inputs. Whether this is seeing LFO modulation actually animated and reflected in the GUI, or seeing wave forms when you play something, this is something I really value because it makes the synth feel more like an actual instrument. But more than this, it can give you visual queues as to how the changes you are making are affecting the sounds coming out, WHICH IS HUGE as a beginner. Especially when it comes to assigning parameters to be modulated.
> 
> Anyways here is my scoring 1-10 on how intuitive I found each synth to be.
> 
> *Massive X: 1/10*
> Massive X can create some absolutely insane sounds, and it has a very hi-fi sound to my ears. But the user experience for me was horrendous. No visual feedback anywhere, and the layout and workflow seems completely alien compared to any other synth I've worked with. I am sure if you put in the time you could create some amazing stuff with it. ZERO RVF.
> 
> *Omnisphere: 5/10*
> This is a bit unfair because Omnisphere is so much more than a simple synth. Because its more a ROMPLER, the interface and workflow can feel a bit foreign when coming from other synths, but its all there (oscillators, ADSR envelopes, LFOs). Its just laid out differently, but once you get the hang of it, its very straightforward. Almost no RVF.
> 
> *Massive: 6/10*
> Massive has a much more familiar layout and workflow, but it looks and feels incredibly dated to me when compared to other newer synths. Still has fantastic sound and capabilites, but you have better options as a beginner. Very little RVF.
> 
> *Spire: 6/10*
> Spire is an amazing synth with a lot of capability, but its been around for a minute now. I found the layout and workflow a bit confusing, but overall its pretty good. However, there is basically no RVF.
> 
> *Synthmaster One: 7/10*
> Synthmaster One is still fairly new to me, I haven't owned it very long at all. The interface is a bit "busy", its kind of a lot to digest. However, its all laid out very logically, and there is excellent RVF throughout. Plus its really cheap, especially right now ($50). This would be a strong place to start IMO.
> 
> *Dune 3: 7/10*
> Dune 3 has a pretty standard layout and interface, but its well designed and fun to use. Its VERY reminiscent of Sylenth1. Not a bad place to start, and obviously this synth is well-regarded. Not a lot of RVF though.
> 
> *Sylenth1: 8/10*
> Sylenth1 is almost like an "analog classic", but in software synth form. Its been around forever, and its proven itself over and over. The layout is incredibly straightforward and pretty intuitive. However, I knock it because of its lack of RVF. It drives me crazy that there is no visual indication of how much things are being modulated, especially since Sylenth has this weird thing where knobs only modulate a percentage of other knobs...still though, this is an amazing choice for a beginner because its a simple synth that isn't super feature heavy, and has a TON of support as far as tutorials go. Plus with a "rent to own" plan of under $10 a month, this might just be THE gateway synth for beginners.
> 
> *Hive 2: 8/10*
> Hive 2 just looks so modern and cool, but its almost overwhelming how much stuff is on screen on the main interface. But its inspiring to use and explore, and it has some awesome RVF! Its a synth that you open up and just want to play with, because the UI is so engaging.
> 
> *ANA2: 8.5/10*
> ANA2 is one of my favorite synths at the moment. It is very thoughtfully designed, and the layout is logical and clean. Slate Digital has an entire masterclass course on how to use this synth, as well as synths in general, so you could really boost your synthesizer mastery if you wanted to. ANA2 also has some really incredible features, like their Chord Memory Device. Its got good RVF, but some things aren't completely animated.
> 
> *Serum: 9/10*
> Serum is a household name by now. But there are reasons for that. One of them is just how intuitive the workflow is in this one. I love the tabs, and the overall layout. I think this is a good choice for beginners, partly because its well designed, and partly because of the VAST support and youtube tutorials out there for mastering literally every aspect of this synth. Also there is some really awesome RVF in this one.
> 
> *Rapid: 9/10*
> I find Rapid's UI to be very easily digestable and straightforward. Plus it runs at 60FPS, IT LOOKS SO SMOOTH. I don't know why, but this one just feels like an instrument to me, rather than just a program. Its been really fun to use so far, and I am really digging the workflow. RVF is some of the best I've seen. Seems like a top contender to me.
> 
> *Pigments: 9/10*
> Pigments is BEAUTIFUL and very intuitive to use. The design and layout is easy to digest, and inspiring to interact with. There is RVF literally everywhere, if something is being modulated, or affected, there is visual evidence of this, and that makes it really fun and easy to use. Its also incredibly powerful. This was my first real synth, and I still love it.
> 
> 
> Well there you go. TLDR I think any of the synths I rated at 8 or above would be fantastic choices. Even the ones rated at 7 would be safe places to start.
> 
> Keep in mind these ratings have NOTHING to do with sound, soundwise I would have rated them very differently, but none of them would score below a 7 in my book. In other words, you should download demos of as many synths as you can, and choose the one that speaks to you the most! But maybe start with my top recommendations



Nice comment!

I learned (or rather started learning) synthesis with Zebra. It's a very deep synth, even now a decade later I'm still learning new things with it. OTOH it's not difficult to use and the modular architecture gives you total freedom to experiment. This might be a better learning approach for some people than fixed-architecture synths. It should be noted that if you buy Zebra 2 and The Dark Zebra you will get Zebra 3 for free once it comes out.

As for the visual feedback, I don't know. I think a big part of working with synths is listening and learning to listen. I find Pigments to be too distracting although I totally understand that other people might find the animations inspirational or even helpful as a learning tool.

@Azeroc Dune 3 is a fantastic synth to learn on too. If it clicks with you and you have the budget then go for it. IMHO it's one of top virtual synths in terms of sound and it's deep enough that it should keep you occupied for years.

The thing is that if you're just starting out you might not really know what you want from a synth. You will see the internet raving about Serum, Diva, Dune, Pigments, etc, but maybe you don't agree with everyone and that's OK. You have to develop your own taste.

A good strategy would be to start with something cheaper, play with it for some time, and then decide whether you want to invest close to $200 on Serum, Dune, Zebra, or some other synth. ANA2 seems like a good starting point and it's on sale now. Another synth on sale is Continua by Audio Damage which is quite interesting.

Edit:

Something else you could consider is buying a "used" license on KVR. People get bored of synths all the time and then resell their license there. I've found some great deals, just be careful to look for feedback on the seller before sending money.


----------



## AmbientMile

Jkist said:


> As someone who was in your shoes not terribly long ago, I can make a few recommendations!
> 
> I dove hard into software synths, and now I own more than I will ever need. I've got ANA2, Sylenth1, Massive, Massive X, Omnisphere, Pigments, Serum, and SynthmasterOne. Rapid is going to be my next purchase once it goes on sale. Someone send help.
> 
> There is something I personally really value, which I will define as "real-time visual feedback" (RVF henceforth). in other words, you play something and the synth reacts visually to your inputs. Whether this is seeing LFO modulation actually animated and reflected in the GUI, or seeing wave forms when you play something, this is something I really value because it makes the synth feel more like an actual instrument. But more than this, it can give you visual queues as to how the changes you are making are affecting the sounds coming out, WHICH IS HUGE as a beginner. Especially when it comes to assigning parameters to be modulated.
> 
> Anyways here is my scoring 1-10 on how intuitive I found each synth to be.
> 
> *Massive X: 1/10*
> Massive X can create some absolutely insane sounds, and it has a very hi-fi sound to my ears. But the user experience for me was horrendous. No visual feedback anywhere, and the layout and workflow seems completely alien compared to any other synth I've worked with. I am sure if you put in the time you could create some amazing stuff with it. ZERO RVF.
> 
> *Omnisphere: 5/10*
> This is a bit unfair because Omnisphere is so much more than a simple synth. Because its more a ROMPLER, the interface and workflow can feel a bit foreign when coming from other synths, but its all there (oscillators, ADSR envelopes, LFOs). Its just laid out differently, but once you get the hang of it, its very straightforward. Almost no RVF.
> 
> *Massive: 6/10*
> Massive has a much more familiar layout and workflow, but it looks and feels incredibly dated to me when compared to other newer synths. Still has fantastic sound and capabilites, but you have better options as a beginner. Very little RVF.
> 
> *Spire: 6/10*
> Spire is an amazing synth with a lot of capability, but its been around for a minute now. I found the layout and workflow a bit confusing, but overall its pretty good. However, there is basically no RVF.
> 
> *Synthmaster One: 7/10*
> Synthmaster One is still fairly new to me, I haven't owned it very long at all. The interface is a bit "busy", its kind of a lot to digest. However, its all laid out very logically, and there is excellent RVF throughout. Plus its really cheap, especially right now ($50). This would be a strong place to start IMO.
> 
> *Dune 3: 7/10*
> Dune 3 has a pretty standard layout and interface, but its well designed and fun to use. Its VERY reminiscent of Sylenth1. Not a bad place to start, and obviously this synth is well-regarded. Not a lot of RVF though.
> 
> *Sylenth1: 8/10*
> Sylenth1 is almost like an "analog classic", but in software synth form. Its been around forever, and its proven itself over and over. The layout is incredibly straightforward and pretty intuitive. However, I knock it because of its lack of RVF. It drives me crazy that there is no visual indication of how much things are being modulated, especially since Sylenth has this weird thing where knobs only modulate a percentage of other knobs...still though, this is an amazing choice for a beginner because its a simple synth that isn't super feature heavy, and has a TON of support as far as tutorials go. Plus with a "rent to own" plan of under $10 a month, this might just be THE gateway synth for beginners.
> 
> *Hive 2: 8/10*
> Hive 2 just looks so modern and cool, but its almost overwhelming how much stuff is on screen on the main interface. But its inspiring to use and explore, and it has some awesome RVF! Its a synth that you open up and just want to play with, because the UI is so engaging.
> 
> *ANA2: 8.5/10*
> ANA2 is one of my favorite synths at the moment. It is very thoughtfully designed, and the layout is logical and clean. Slate Digital has an entire masterclass course on how to use this synth, as well as synths in general, so you could really boost your synthesizer mastery if you wanted to. ANA2 also has some really incredible features, like their Chord Memory Device. Its got good RVF, but some things aren't completely animated.
> 
> *Serum: 9/10*
> Serum is a household name by now. But there are reasons for that. One of them is just how intuitive the workflow is in this one. I love the tabs, and the overall layout. I think this is a good choice for beginners, partly because its well designed, and partly because of the VAST support and youtube tutorials out there for mastering literally every aspect of this synth. Also there is some really awesome RVF in this one.
> 
> *Rapid: 9/10*
> I find Rapid's UI to be very easily digestable and straightforward. Plus it runs at 60FPS, IT LOOKS SO SMOOTH. I don't know why, but this one just feels like an instrument to me, rather than just a program. Its been really fun to use so far, and I am really digging the workflow. RVF is some of the best I've seen. Seems like a top contender to me.
> 
> *Pigments: 9/10*
> Pigments is BEAUTIFUL and very intuitive to use. The design and layout is easy to digest, and inspiring to interact with. There is RVF literally everywhere, if something is being modulated, or affected, there is visual evidence of this, and that makes it really fun and easy to use. Its also incredibly powerful. This was my first real synth, and I still love it.
> 
> 
> Well there you go. TLDR I think any of the synths I rated at 8 or above would be fantastic choices. Even the ones rated at 7 would be safe places to start.
> 
> Keep in mind these ratings have NOTHING to do with sound, soundwise I would have rated them very differently, but none of them would score below a 7 in my book. In other words, you should download demos of as many synths as you can, and choose the one that speaks to you the most! But maybe start with my top recommendations



I think it is a bit disingenuous to say that Omnisphere has "almost no RVF". The Modulation section has an animated display showing exactly what is going on with each modulation routing. If you click the magnifying glass, you go to the modulation matrix which shows you EVERY routing and is animated. The Envelopes page shows a moving indication of your envelopes. The Orb is animated. The Arpeggiator is animated, etc. To me, I get plenty of visual feedback of what is going on in my Omni patches.

On the other hand, I couldn't agree more about Massive X. NI missed an opportunity to provide ANY visual feedback to this great synth. While it makes great sound, if they could show some movement in the modulation area, it would improve the experience. Hopefully this is something that they will add.


----------



## gsilbers

not sure if it was mentioned but Dune 3 has been very aggressively copying the Virus TI. which is a synth hans zimmer promoted (or mentioned a lot) before the zebra2 batman thing. 

I have the virus TI and they do sound similar. the dual filter update sure worked out great. and it also has flexible envelopes whihc the TI doesnt. and more cinematic synth have like zebra and omni. which helps take it out of EDM territory. 

The only downsize i see w dune 3 is the way they implemented the step seq and that tiny screen. 

also the TI had a way to route the arp to be a source modulator.


----------



## Jkist

@AmbientMile My mistake, you are right! It has been a minute since I really played with Omnisphere.


----------



## Pier

gsilbers said:


> not sure if it was mentioned but Dune 3 has been very aggressively copying the Virus TI. which is a synth hans zimmer promoted (or mentioned a lot) before the zebra2 batman thing.
> 
> I have the virus TI and they do sound similar. the dual filter update sure worked out great. and it also has flexible envelopes whihc the TI doesnt. and more cinematic synth have like zebra and omni. which helps take it out of EDM territory.
> 
> The only downsize i see w dune 3 is the way they implemented the step seq and that tiny screen.
> 
> also the TI had a way to route the arp to be a source modulator.



Oh I didn't know!

Isn't that a Polar on the bottom left? 






I've been playing with the demo of Dune 3 for a couple of weeks and finally bought it today. It really sounds amazing.

I've never owned or used a Virus, but if this is what they sound like I can finally understand why they are so revered, even today.


----------



## j_kranz

+1 for Dune 3, although I haven't used Rapid yet. The MIDI file playback is a super cool feature of Dune 3 and not to be overlooked (programming the sequencer on some VST's is a chore!).


----------



## Azeroc

Pier said:


> Nice comment!
> 
> I learned (or rather started learning) synthesis with Zebra. It's a very deep synth, even now a decade later I'm still learning new things with it. OTOH it's not difficult to use and the modular architecture gives you total freedom to experiment. This might be a better learning approach for some people than fixed-architecture synths. It should be noted that if you buy Zebra 2 and The Dark Zebra you will get Zebra 3 for free once it comes out.
> 
> As for the visual feedback, I don't know. I think a big part of working with synths is listening and learning to listen. I find Pigments to be too distracting although I totally understand that other people might find the animations inspirational or even helpful as a learning tool.
> 
> @Azeroc Dune 3 is a fantastic synth to learn on too. If it clicks with you and you have the budget then go for it. IMHO it's one of top virtual synths in terms of sound and it's deep enough that it should keep you occupied for years.
> 
> The thing is that if you're just starting out you might not really know what you want from a synth. You will see the internet raving about Serum, Diva, Dune, Pigments, etc, but maybe you don't agree with everyone and that's OK. You have to develop your own taste.
> 
> A good strategy would be to start with something cheaper, play with it for some time, and then decide whether you want to invest close to $200 on Serum, Dune, Zebra, or some other synth. ANA2 seems like a good starting point and it's on sale now. Another synth on sale is Continua by Audio Damage which is quite interesting.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Something else you could consider is buying a "used" license on KVR. People get bored of synths all the time and then resell their license there. I've found some great deals, just be careful to look for feedback on the seller before sending money.


Gave Ana2 a go. I agree, it's a good starting point, very intuitive interface, a bit slow when loading presets (compared to Dune3 and Rapid), overall as you mentioned, a good starting point. 
But, the sound of it doesn't click with me, I read people posts about how much they like its sound or that it has a fatter sound compared to other virtual synths, but even comparing a base analog saw wavetable, I can tell that I like the sound of Rapid more, it's way fatter than ANA2, Retrologue 2 has a better saw sound than it. I can't compare it with Dune 3 because my demo expired :(

Even if ANA2 is on sale for 45£, I'm not sure if I'm willing to invest in it especially when Rapid sale is around the corner (they'll release 1.8 soon and with it there will be a sale). 
One thing I don't want to do is have lots of synths only because there is a sale for them and starting to stack them up and barely not using them. Poor investment overall and I'd rather wait till I can invest in the ones I'm really interested and want. 

The advice on starting on something cheaper is a very good one and I thank you for that but I think for learning purposes, I can fiddle around with Retrologue2 which I have with Cubase or even Padshop 2.


----------



## doctoremmet

Azeroc said:


> or even Padshop 2.


“even”? Padshop 2 is a pretty remarkable synth to be honest, its spectral filters can’t be found elsewhere...


----------



## Jkist

Azeroc said:


> Even if ANA2 is on sale for 45£, I'm not sure if I'm willing to invest in it especially when Rapid sale is around the corner (they'll release 1.8 soon and with it there will be a sale).
> One thing I don't want to do is have lots of synths only because there is a sale for them and starting to stack them up and barely not using them. Poor investment overall and I'd rather wait till I can invest in the ones I'm really interested and want.



Did you mess with the Chord Memory Device? This feature is insanely cool and unique to ANA2 as far as I can tell. If you pair it with the arpeggiator, you can make some insane sounding progressions and melodic leads. Also the G envelope is pretty cool and sorta unique too.


----------



## Azeroc

Jkist said:


> Did you mess with the Chord Memory Device? This feature is insanely cool and unique to ANA2 as far as I can tell. If you pair it with the arpeggiator, you can make some insane sounding progressions and melodic leads. Also the G envelope is pretty cool and sorta unique too.


Yes, tried that as well, pretty cool feature. I also like the sampler oscillators. 
There are some pretty neat features in ANA2 and I find it hard to restrain myself from purchasing it, and you're not helping mate ))
I mean yeah, it's only 50 quids....


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## Azeroc

doctoremmet said:


> “even”? Padshop 2 is a pretty remarkable synth to be honest, its spectral filters can’t be found elsewhere...


Yes, I totally agree, bad phrasing from my part.


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## doctoremmet

Azeroc said:


> Yes, I totally agree, bad phrasing from my part.


And re-reading my own quick reply, I sound like a smartass / dick. Sorry about that! I was merely trying to profess my undying love for Padshop 2. It was Simon Stockhausen who made me a convert haha. Wasn’t there supposed to be a Padshop soundbank seeing a release this summer? Polarities? His YT channel had a ton of incredibly awesome Padshop stuff for a while... Will go and have a look-see...


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## doctoremmet

Well what do you know? Polarities for Padshop 2 was released yesterday. Cool stuff. Thanks for reminding me of that cool synth.









Polarities - Padshop Expansion


Polarities for Padshop 2 by Simon Stockhausen juxtaposes electronic and acoustic sounds, exploring extreme sonic territories which clash with, oppose or complement each other.




new.steinberg.net


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## Pier

doctoremmet said:


> Padshop 2 is a pretty remarkable synth to be honest, its spectral filters can’t be found elsewhere...



Urs mentioned in KVR that Zebra filters are spectral. Not sure if all filters or only the OSC FX ones. I can't seem to find the post where he mentioned that.


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## Jkist

Rapid is officially on sale!


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## Azeroc

Jkist said:


> Rapid is officially on sale!


You ninja'd me


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## Azeroc

Time to finally grab it  busy weekend ahead


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## paulmatthew

If you are just starting out Dune 3 or Rapid are great choices. Dune will be easier to learn all the basics and then some for creating your own sounds easily. Rapid can be as complicated as you make but can do more in the sound design realm with the different forms of sy thesis it offers and have just added granular synthesis. Dune has a "bigger" more aggressive sound compared to Rapid. If you are looking to learn first and create later , you could save some money and just download the free synth Helm which will help you grasp what synths do and how to operate them before spending a big chunk of money to get one or 2.


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## Secret Soundworks

Yes, finally! The granular update to RAPID!


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## bill5

I give up: "RVF?" 

Really Very Fine?
Recent Version F*cked?
Rockin Via Fornication?
Rascals Venting Farts?

what??


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## Pier

@bill5 "realtime visual feedback".

It's just something that @Jkist came up with in a previous post.


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## Jkist

bill5 said:


> I give up: "RVF?"
> 
> Really Very Fine?
> Recent Version F*cked?
> Rockin Via Fornication?
> Rascals Venting Farts?
> 
> what??



Yeah, sorry it was just something I made up for the context of this conversation, didnt mean to confuse anyone


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## bill5

Dammit man speak English; I'm a doctor, not a linguist


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## Minko

I like VPS Avenger and it would be good for you to test / demo this. 
Do note I don't like the licensing of this VST. So look into that also.

What I like about it is that it is very versatile, has great modulation options and is simple (just like me). You can also get a lot of different sounds from it. Try it out.


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## ALittleNightMusic

Rapid doesn't have MSEGs yet, which limits the flexibility IMO (allegedly coming in 1.9, but no idea when that will be). Avenger is pretty complete and amazing - though you need to be able to handle the CPU and also not be opposed to their CodeMeter licensing scheme. ANA2 is definitely worth a look, especially with the price.


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## antret

For what it’s worth .... I’m a relative new comer to the synth master family and absolutely love it! I am thinking about getting synth master 1 as well (for the times I don’t really want to ‘geek out’). That plus the TAL synths have retired a lot of stuff from my folder. Don’t hate, but I really dig ascension by WA Production too. 

Rapid looks totally sweet! It’s just a bit out of my price point these days.


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## Azeroc

antret said:


> For what it’s worth .... I’m a relative new comer to the synth master family and absolutely love it! I am thinking about getting synth master 1 as well (for the times I don’t really want to ‘geek out’). That plus the TAL synths have retired a lot of stuff from my folder. Don’t hate, but I really dig ascension by WA Production too.
> 
> Rapid looks totally sweet! It’s just a bit out of my price point these days.



Purchased Rapid when it was on sale (don't know if it still is). Amazing piece of software, endless possibilities, I don't regret one bit acquiring it.


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## bytemapper

I downsized a ton of stuff moving to Dune and Rapid. Snagged Falcon for a little more diversity to go with Diva. Can't go wrong with Synapse though.


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## Azeroc

I kind of feel that Rapid is a downsized production environment, ofc limited but when you look through some of the presets, you really understand how powerful this piece of software is. Multi sample import with round robins basically allows you to create some unique and interesting instruments. Really enjoying it.


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## bytemapper

It was my sleeper surprise. I bought it on a whim after doing a coin toss between it and Viper, and couldn't be happier with the end result.


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## antret

You folks aren’t helping me keep my wallet closed and not buying Rapid.


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## Twal

I'll add this here so if someone searches for what synths to start out with this may help. I have been using presets 99% of the time, but have been trying to get into sound design a little by little because it can be very overwhelming; and learning can be a bit dry. Every time I fire up ANA 2, Synthmaster 2, Spire, or Zebra I just get confused and have to search out information or quit. But, when I start to use Dune 3 it just makes sense to me. The layout is so easy to understand, and everything is in places that are easy to identify. Some people like workflows that move in single direction, or have similar looks to other controls, or one have one a page visual and what not; but this doesn't work for me; whereas Dune 3 has all the areas of control that appear different, the GUI is far easier to comprehend for me, and plus it is easy to find things. I would have to recommend Dune 3 (Or 2) as a beginners synth to start design on if you are similar in thinking as me.


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## vitocorleone123

Twal said:


> I'll add this here so if someone searches for what synths to start out with this may help. I have been using presets 99% of the time, but have been trying to get into sound design a little by little because it can be very overwhelming; and learning can be a bit dry. Every time I fire up ANA 2, Synthmaster 2, Spire, or Zebra I just get confused and have to search out information or quit. But, when I start to use Dune 3 it just makes sense to me. The layout is so easy to understand, and everything is in places that are easy to identify. Some people like workflows that move in single direction, or have similar looks to other controls, or one have one a page visual and what not; but this doesn't work for me; whereas Dune 3 has all the areas of control that appear different, the GUI is far easier to comprehend for me, and plus it is easy to find things. I would have to recommend Dune 3 (Or 2) as a beginners synth to start design on if you are similar in thinking as me.


Nice!

I'd also highly recommend the (free) Vital synth, as it's UI is designed in a way that helps show you what's happening, similar to Pigments, but somewhat more straightforward (doesn't have granular, additive, etc. to worry about).

Subtractive synthesis is easiest to learn on something like The Legend, Repro, or an actual subtractive hardware analog synth (highly recommended - the knobs make a HUGE difference for learning and exploration). I started there, and definitely think it's the best place to start learning to make your own patches. Then you can leverage that into wavetable synthesis. And then go from there to additive and granular. Off to the side lurks FM (the Digitone is helping me learn a bit of FM, helping by also including subtractive synthesis tools) and sampling/sample mangling/chopping.

I tried wavetable and some other things and was just lost until I literally bought a couple of analog hardware subtractive synths.


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## Pier

Twal said:


> I'll add this here so if someone searches for what synths to start out with this may help. I have been using presets 99% of the time, but have been trying to get into sound design a little by little because it can be very overwhelming; and learning can be a bit dry. Every time I fire up ANA 2, Synthmaster 2, Spire, or Zebra I just get confused and have to search out information or quit. But, when I start to use Dune 3 it just makes sense to me. The layout is so easy to understand, and everything is in places that are easy to identify. Some people like workflows that move in single direction, or have similar looks to other controls, or one have one a page visual and what not; but this doesn't work for me; whereas Dune 3 has all the areas of control that appear different, the GUI is far easier to comprehend for me, and plus it is easy to find things. I would have to recommend Dune 3 (Or 2) as a beginners synth to start design on if you are similar in thinking as me.


Yeah everyone is different.

For me it was the opposite. I tried getting into sound design with fixed architecture synths like Massive from NI but I just couldn't and kept using presets and tweaking.

Years later I started using Zebra and it all made sense. The fact that I could decide the flow of the signal is what finally clicked for me and kept me going.


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## Pier

vitocorleone123 said:


> I'd also highly recommend the (free) Vital synth, as it's UI is designed in a way that helps show you what's happening, similar to Pigments, but somewhat more straightforward (doesn't have granular, additive, etc. to worry about).


Vital is fucking awesome.

The UI is super informative and I love how it sounds. It would be a fantastic first synth IMO.


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## Twal

vitocorleone123 said:


> Nice!
> 
> I'd also highly recommend the (free) Vital synth, as it's UI is designed in a way that helps show you what's happening, similar to Pigments, but somewhat more straightforward (doesn't have granular, additive, etc. to worry about).
> 
> Subtractive synthesis is easiest to learn on something like The Legend, Repro, or an actual subtractive hardware analog synth (highly recommended - the knobs make a HUGE difference for learning and exploration). I started there, and definitely think it's the best place to start learning to make your own patches. Then you can leverage that into wavetable synthesis. And then go from there to additive and granular. Off to the side lurks FM (the Digitone is helping me learn a bit of FM, helping by also including subtractive synthesis tools) and sampling/sample mangling/chopping.
> 
> I tried wavetable and some other things and was just lost until I literally bought a couple of analog hardware subtractive synths.


Hey, I'll take this into consideration. I do really like Vital as I did dl it and tried it. The problem is, is that I am on Windows 7 and my computer started to be a little glitchy so I uninstalled it. I may go back to it because I did really like the workflow on it. I only tried it on Windows 7 because others have done so and had no issues even though the system requirements say Windows 8 I believe and up. Maybe there is a fix or I can simply try again; and perhaps it was a coincidence and the slow down on CPU was a different issue.


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## Twal

Pier said:


> Yeah everyone is different.
> 
> For me it was the opposite. I tried getting into sound design with fixed architecture synths like Massive from NI but I just couldn't and kept using presets and tweaking.
> 
> Years later I started using Zebra and it all made sense. The fact that I could decide the flow of the signal is what finally clicked for me and kept me going.


Zebra made more sense to me than the others I have mentioned even though many claim it is difficult as a first synth. I think there are some menus that are small for me, but the semi-modular aspect is easier to understand than say Synthmaster's interface. After awhile I got burnt out on Zebra but will pick it back up as I believe it is one of the best in character sound/ability.


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## Pier

Twal said:


> I think there are some menus that are small for me


You can scale Zebra's UI up to 200%.

Either open the settings and set a default UI scaling, or right click on the header and select a scaling.


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## vitocorleone123

Twal said:


> Hey, I'll take this into consideration. I do really like Vital as I did dl it and tried it. The problem is, is that I am on Windows 7 and my computer started to be a little glitchy so I uninstalled it. I may go back to it because I did really like the workflow on it. I only tried it on Windows 7 because others have done so and had no issues even though the system requirements say Windows 8 I believe and up. Maybe there is a fix or I can simply try again; and perhaps it was a coincidence and the slow down on CPU was a different issue.


Not sure if it’ll help an older computer/OS, but if Audiogridder works on Win7, you can run the server and plugin on the same computer. It really helps spread the cpu load of synths and effects if you have multiple cores. Or running it on a second, hardwired computer works great, too.


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## Voider

Pier said:


> Years later I started using Zebra and it all made sense. The fact that I could decide the flow of the signal is what finally clicked for me and kept me going.


You can also control the flow of the signal in any subtrative synth that comes with a modulation matrix, which is basically like connecting cables on hardware synths / modules from A to B to make A affect B in the way you want. 

@Thread
I can strongly recommend Dune 2 (_now 3 but they're almost the same_), I absolutely love it. It's my one and only main synth since 2017 and I can only think of very few things that I couldn't do with it.



My second choice would be Pigments, for beginners probably even my first choice because of the visual representation of the envelopes, filters and so on, this will probably help to understand what's happening under the hood. That being said, it's a bit harder to make it sound really good, the oscillators and filters - to me - don't sound as "_good_" as those from Dune in their raw form. I still loved to work with Pigments and once you get used to it, it's a lot of fun.


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## vitocorleone123

Voider said:


> You can also control the flow of the signal in any subtrative synth that comes with a modulation matrix, which is basically like connecting cables on hardware synths / modules from A to B to make A affect B in the way you want.
> 
> @Thread
> I can strongly recommend Dune 2 (_now 3 but they're almost the same_), I absolutely love it. It's my one and only main synth since 2017 and I can only think of very few things that I couldn't do with it.
> 
> 
> 
> My second choice would be Pigments, for beginners probably even my first choice because of the visual representation of the envelopes, filters and so on, this will probably help to understand what's happening under the hood. That being said, it's a bit harder to make it sound really good, the oscillators and filters - to me - don't sound as "_good_" as those from Dune in their raw form. I still loved to work with Pigments and once you get used to it, it's a lot of fun.



Vital is easier to use than Pigments if getting started. And free. And, arguably, sounds better (to me, anyway).

Hard to go wrong with a good VA like Dune or Hive. I think Hive sounds better, so I went that route. But it was a very, very close and hard decision. I’d easily say everyone should have one or the other.


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## Pier

Voider said:


> You can also control the flow of the signal in any subtrative synth that comes with a modulation matrix, which is basically like connecting cables on hardware synths / modules from A to B to make A affect B in the way you want.


The modulation matrix is about controlling the modulation, not the audio signal.

Maybe you're referring to something else?

Some synths like Massive X allow you to control the audio routing, which is what Zebra does:


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## Voider

Pier said:


> The modulation matrix is about controlling the modulation, not the audio signal.
> 
> Maybe you're referring to something else?
> 
> Some synths like Massive X allow you to control the audio routing, which is what Zebra does:


Can you make an example of an audio signal chain that you'd set up in Zebra? If you'd like to.

Because to me it just looks like another way of displaying it, I have yet no experience with additive synthesis but I'm pretty deep into sound design and as far as I know, additive synthesis is just a different approach for the same things. I've yet not heard things by Zebra that Dune or any other well equipped subtractive synth couldn't do, including Hans Zimmers' very nice _Dark Knight_ soundset.

For instance I see on the screen that Oscillator 2 is being send into an FM module, in Dune I would just choose Oscillator 2 and set it to FM mode. I also see Oscillator 1 affecting pulse modulation if that's what PM stands for here, if I'd want to do that in Dune I would head into the mod matrix, choose Osc 1 as source, set the amount from 0-100 and pick pulse modulation as destination. That would route Osc 1 into the pulse modulation of another Osc and modulate it depending on the signal that Osc 1 creates.

But I am curious if there's something cool one can do with additive synthesis that I don't know about, that's why I am asking


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## Pier

Voider said:


> Can you make an example of an audio signal chain that you'd set up in Zebra? If you'd like to.
> 
> Because to me it just looks like another way of displaying it, I have yet no experience with additive synthesis but I'm pretty deep into sound design and as far as I know, additive synthesis is just a different approach for the same things. I've yet not heard things by Zebra that Dune or any other well equipped subtractive synth couldn't do, including Hans Zimmers' very nice _Dark Knight_ soundset.
> 
> For instance I see on the screen that Oscillator 2 is being send into an FM module, in Dune I would just choose Oscillator 2 and set it to FM mode. I also see Oscillator 1 affecting pulse modulation if that's what PM stands for here, if I'd want to do that in Dune I would head into the mod matrix, choose Osc 1 as source, set the amount from 0-100 and pick pulse modulation as destination. That would route Osc 1 into the pulse modulation of another Osc and modulate it depending on the signal that Osc 1 creates.
> 
> But I am curious if there's something cool one can do with additive synthesis that I don't know about, that's why I am asking


So for example you can split audio at any point (even modulate how much you want to split) and then apply anything to just a part of the audio. Even split it again, and then apply filters, effects, to just 1/4 of the signal.

With Dune you can have parallel filters with distortions, but it's more limited. You simply don't have the same freedom.

Don't get me wrong, I think Dune is fantastic. If you check my post history you will see I've recommended it a few times on this forum.

That said, I don't think Zebra 2 is perfect either. For the most part, it doesn't have audio rate modulation that Dune has. Many parameters can't be modulated (they can but it produces a zipping noise due to the modulation being low res). Etc.

Zebra 3 will *probably* be perfect though


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## Voider

Pier said:


> So for example you can split audio at any point (even modulate how much you want to split) and then apply anything to just a part of the audio. Even split it again, and then apply filters, effects, to just 1/4 of the signal.
> 
> With Dune you can have parallel filters with distortions, but it's more limited. You simply don't have the same freedom.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think Dune is fantastic. If you check my post history you will see I've recommended it a few times on this forum.


I see what you mean! I don't know if you already know about that feature in Dune and if what you describe here takes it even further or not, but Dune has on the right side those "voices" ranging from 1-8.

Those are different instances (duplicates) of the synth, they enable you to make 8 different full patches basically, which can be used to split your audio signal into 8 parts to get things done like you've mentioned above.






You could have a patch consisting of 8 oscillators that you all split over the 8 voices. Then you could say you take the first 1/4 (voices 1+2) and route their acid filter through a specific envelope that you've set up instead of the filter ADSR. Then you can take the next 1/4 of the signal, (voices 3+4) run them through a completely different filter - let's say bandpass -, and let the filter ADSR control its behaviour. Ultimatively you could make use of the two seperate SFX chains and only give the first voices 1+2 distortion and delay, and give reverb and chorus only to 4+5 and you could even change the order of the SFX plugins if you want to run a wet reverb signal through a distortion module or do something else more creative.

But that's not common for most synths and something special on Dune and Zebra so you're probably right with that a modulation matrix alone doesn't cut it, and I assume you have still more freedom in Zebra than in Dune, if you can pick things more individually and move them more in a surgical way. For instance, as cool as the SFX thing is that I've just described, I am always limited to either the whole Mix bus 1 or 2. I can't run 3 parts of the signals through 3 different single modules that none of the other have because it's either bus one or two.

Cool to know, thanks!


----------



## Pier

Voider said:


> I see what you mean! I don't know if you already know about that feature in Dune and if what you describe here takes it even further or not, but Dune has on the right side those "voices" ranging from 1-8.
> 
> Those are different instances (duplicates) of the synth, they enable you to make 8 different full patches basically, which can be used to split your audio signal into 8 parts to get things done like you've mentioned above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You could have a patch consisting of 8 oscillators that you all split over the 8 voices. Then you could say you take the first 1/4 (voices 1+2) and route their acid filter through a specific envelope that you've set up instead of the filter ADSR. Then you can take the next 1/4 of the signal, (voices 3+4) run them through a completely different filter - let's say bandpass -, and let the filter ADSR control its behaviour. Ultimatively you could make use of the two seperate SFX chains and only give the first voices 1+2 distortion and delay, and give reverb and chorus only to 4+5 and you could even change the order of the SFX plugins if you want to run a wet reverb signal through a distortion module or do something else more creative.
> 
> But that's not common for most synths and something special on Dune and Zebra so you're probably right with that a modulation matrix alone doesn't cut it, and I assume you have still more freedom in Zebra than in Dune, if you can pick things more individually and move them more in a surgical way. For instance, as cool as the SFX thing is that I've just described, I am always limited to either the whole Mix bus 1 or 2. I can't run 3 parts of the signals through 3 different single modules that none of the other have because it's either bus one or two.
> 
> Cool to know, thanks!


Yeah I'm aware of the voices (or layers) that Dune has but, like I mentioned, it's much more limited and kinda of a pain to use for that kind of thing.

OTOH I will say that for layering stuff (not splitting audio) Dune is better than Zebra as it has a separate FX chain per layer. Zebra has "only" 3 FX channels and a limited number of effect instances which can be limiting sometimes for the more complex things.


----------

