# DAW Suggestions



## aegisninja (Apr 26, 2020)

Hello everyone,

I don't mean to start any sort of DAW flame-war here, I just am probably about to make the leap on a new DAW purchase and would like some advice before I do so.

I have been using Reason as my primary for a few years now, and for the most part have been fairly happy with it as I find it extremely intuitive (I love the SSL mixer beyond all reason). I do have Pro Tools but kind of actively dislike the workflow there.

Now that the Reason rack is available as a VST, I am starting to think the future of Reason as a fully featured DAW is pretty bleak, and there are also some features that I was hoping Reason would get with the latest version that just didn't happen and don't really seem like a priority for them.

I am looking for something that is very intuitive with midi for orchestral/cinematic music, syncs well to picture, and is also fully featured in the actual audio area as I do record live instruments for a punk rock project as well.

As of now, the contenders I am looking at are Cubase, Digital Performer and Studio One, but I don't have much experience with any of them (Logic is off the table as I don't have a Mac). Any suggestions based on what I am looking for would be wonderful!

EDIT: I should also mention that I also do sound design/foley from time to time, and being able to do everything in one DAW efficiently would be great.


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## goonman (Apr 26, 2020)

Consider Reaper - its inexpensive, intuitive and may tick most of the boxes you need.


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## d.healey (Apr 26, 2020)

Reaper


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## aegisninja (Apr 26, 2020)

I did try Reaper a few years ago, and I seem to remember not being too big on using it for midi, but maybe I need to give it another shot.


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## jmauz (Apr 26, 2020)

Opcode Vision DSP.

Just kidding.

Cubase all day long. Easy to use, customizable, stable, great tech support/user community.


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## jonathanparham (Apr 26, 2020)

jmauz said:


> Opcode Vision DSP.


hey hey don't be knocking that. That's what got me in the game lol. No seriously, I had master tracks pro and then a bandmate introduced me to Opcode Vision and it seemed so intuitive to me.

Back on thread track. I'd say try the demos, some of the developers that have them.


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## purple (Apr 26, 2020)

The thing about REAPER is that the workflow can be very well specialized to you. I don't know of other DAWs that allow the same level of customization and optimization to exactly what you need. There is an extensive community with scripts and themes to let you customize it to your needs, so don't just scoff at the rather bland default theme and workflow (although I never really hated the default theme). Plus you can get a fully-featured trial for 60 days after which it's maybe the cheapest DAW out there. (And it's kind of like winrar in that a lot of people don't actually buy a license, but you should because the devs are very active and it is well-supported)


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## blinkofani (Apr 26, 2020)

Since you’re on Windows, want great MIDI for orchestral music and it syncs well with pictures DP and Cubase might be your best bet. Both have demos I think. I’d start by looking to a lot of YT videos to get an overall feel and then try the demos. 30 days is gone fast unless you have a lot of free time on your hands.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 26, 2020)

Reaper is free to try. I gave it a shot and went scurrying back to Cubase-it's very DYI, which some people love and other don't. I don't-the technical aspects of DAWS are what get in the way of my writing, because I'm not interested in them. I want an easy workflow, easy editing and a straight out of the box setup.

Years ago I worked in DP because a client used it. I thought it was pretty intuitive. I hear good things about Studio One being intuitive as well.


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## labornvain (Apr 26, 2020)

I have all of the DAWs mentioned here plus a few that weren't mentioned like Cakewalk and Fruity Loops.

In terms of features and out of the box, ready to roll, ease-of-use, Cubase is the only game in town four windows.

Reaper is cool and looks promising, but you'll notice almost every time Reaper is brought up, someone has to point out that you can "customize it to do what you want." But why the fuck would you want to? If your idea of playing with your DAW is more appealing than playing music, then maybe that's the way to go.

Digital Performer, which I have to use on occasion, is archaic at this point. I can't even believe they're still in business.

Studio One held a lot of promise, at least I was excited, but it appears their target market is dudes wanting to record their band. For Midi production it's just terrible. The last time I messed with it which was about two years ago, I counted how many steps it took just to insert a VI instrument. I think it was like six steps.

Of course I have some serious issues with Cubase as well. Can't believe in the year 2020 you still have to grab little square things just to adjust the CC data on a midi track. All of these DAWs are archaic in terms of editing midi data.

But all totaled up, Cubase has by far the most features and the most ease-of-use in terms of those features.

I can pitch correct a flat vocal in less than 15 seconds. I can time align and out of sync snare drum in less than 15 seconds.

In the terms of midi, I have a template that has 2500 tracks. If I want to find a nice patch for spicatto cellos, I have logical editor presets that allow me to hide all tracks but the spicatto cellos. I had to set that up, like Reaper, but it's really cool and makes working with large templates super easy.

I could go on and on. One of my latest favorites is Cubase now allows you to organize all of your effects plugins by categories of your choosing. So if I'm looking for an 1176, I click on the insert plug in dialogue, navigate to 1176 folder, and voila. there they are.

I had to set this up but I now have all of my plug-ins organized by what they do or what they are. For example, in one folder called reverbs, I have subfolders for spring, vintage plates, convolution, rooms, Etc. I can't even imagine working without that now.

I should add that I am plugging Cubase reluctantly. I think we would all benefit if Steinberg had a lot more competition. But as it stands now, nothing else even comes close.


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## EgM (Apr 26, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Studio One held a lot of promise, at least I was excited, but it appears their target market is dudes wanting to record their band. For Midi production it's just terrible. The last time I messed with it which was about two years ago, I counted how many steps it took just to insert a VI instrument. I think it was like six steps.



That’s highly inaccurate, it only takes one drag from instrument browser to insert an instrument. Or simply right click in the track view and choose Insert instrument.

Many of us use it for midi with no issues whatsoever.


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## TheSigillite (Apr 26, 2020)

I've decided on Reaper as I wanted to keep my PC as free of extras and bloatware as possible. I've yet to make any customizations but I understand you can tinker almost anything under the hood. With the latest additions to Midi controls in version 6 I'm set it's the platform I'll be using for the foreseeable future. I've created both templates and track templates and have been able to use both very efficiently. Good luck on your search.


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## labornvain (Apr 26, 2020)

EgM said:


> That’s highly inaccurate, it only takes one drag from instrument browser to insert an instrument. Or simply right click in the track view and choose Insert instrument.
> 
> Many of us use it for midi with no issues whatsoever.


My bad. I think it was actually Reaper where I ended up counting the steps to create a VI track.


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## purple (Apr 26, 2020)

labornvain said:


> My bad. I think it was actually Reaper where I ended up counting the steps to create a VI track.


Create new virtual instrument track>Select plugin


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## purple (Apr 26, 2020)

The customization of REAPER is what appeals to me... If that's not what you want, that's up to you, but don't try to spin it like it's not good out of the box. It definitely is. But nobody can possibly know my workflow better than me, so why should I expect anyone else to make the perfect DAW for me? I'd rather get a DAW that can grow, change and adapt to my needs as a creator.


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## Lea1229 (Apr 26, 2020)

I did not find Reaper intuitive at all, though I've heard others say it's intuitive if you have some computer programming background. I also liked Reason a lot but didn't end up going with it long term because of it not supporting certain external plugins at the time. I use Cubase now and it seems like they are constantly improving, listening to user feedback, and becoming more and more widely used. I have not used it's video features though so can't speak to that. Seems like downloading trial versions and taking them for a test run would be a good first step.


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## lsabina (Apr 26, 2020)

While I didn’t switch from Vision, I recently needed to leave Metro (anybody remember that one?). I went with Studio One as its‘s cross platform. I like it so far and the learning curve isn’t steep.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 26, 2020)

Lea1229 said:


> . I have not used it's video features though so can't speak to that.


I have. It works but there are limitations including 16 bit only and the video export (finally!) creates very large files. I imagine that will improve.


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## labornvain (Apr 26, 2020)

purple said:


> Create new virtual instrument track>Select plugin


Yep. My critique of Reaper and Studio One were a bit out of date. I've just spent the last 2 hours re-familiarizing myself with the latest versions, and they have both improved dramatically.

Not enough though. For example, in Studio One I recorded a midi part and then opened up the midi editor to manipulate cc11. But cc11 wasn't available. I sat there scrolling through a list for 10 minutes and never found it. I finally just recorded some CC11 data, and then it appeared.

Still talking about studio one, there was weirdness on creating an instrument track as well. I right clicked, selected create instrument track and it looks like it created an empty midi track that wasn't assigned or assignable to any actual instrument plug-in.

I finally got it to work but it was ridiculously and unnecessarily unintuitive.

For people who like the drag and drop technique of adding instruments, all I can say is wait until you have a 150 VST instruments to choose from. What a mess.

In Cubase, just like effects plugins, VST instrument plugins can be organized however you like. I have folders for synths, vintage synths, drums, electronic drums, organs, pianos, electric pianos etc.

Kontact, which is what I use about 99% of the time, isn't in a folder. It sits right at the top. So I can create a new Kontact track in less than 10 seconds.

Of course this is a nitpicky example, and honestly there's nothing I would love more than to bail on Cubase. But for scoring and orchestral mock-ups, the competition just isn't there yet. And that's what the op was asking about.

I spent about an hour in Reaper, and I continue to be more and more impressed every time I use it. I really think it holds the most promise for being a replacement for Cubase.

I also don't understand so many people's objection to the user interface. I really like it.

But I'm extremely skeptical of the viability of the user-created expanded functionality model. I fear a situation may arise, as it did with Firefox, where all of these scripts start creating instability with other scripts and a nightmare ensues.

But, on the other hand, it's clear that these guys really know how to code, so I'm open to the possibility they can make it work.


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## jonathanwright (Apr 26, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Not enough though. For example, in Studio One I recorded a midi part and then opened up the midi editor to manipulate cc11. But cc11 wasn't available. I sat there scrolling through a list for 10 minutes and never found it. I finally just recorded some CC11 data, and then it appeared.
> 
> Still talking about studio one, there was weirdness on creating an instrument track as well. I right clicked, selected create instrument track and it looks like it created an empty midi track that wasn't assigned or assignable to any actual instrument plug-in.
> 
> ...



As you say, CC11 is available in the MIDI editor once recorded, or you can add it (or any other CC) using a MIDI list in the tab at the top of the CC lanes.






If you click to create a track, rather than drag, it will always be empty. From there you can either drag a VI onto the track, or assign an existing instrument to it.

I‘ve worked with huge projects in S1, and find the workflow blazingly fast. Definitely the fastest if working with a VI per track approach, and organising your presets.

I‘be written an article on it here.

https://www.jonathanwrightmusic.com/article/use-studio-one-and-instrument-presets-for-large-orchestral-projects
The Macro functionality is also worth looking in to, it’s very easy. You can use them to add inserts, insert presets, etc, with a single key command.


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## Jackdaw (Apr 27, 2020)

Regarding Studio One I'm a bit confused about the criticism in this thread. I just moved to S1 roughly a week ago with no experience with it at all and I could create stuff with it in minutes and didn't experience any of those handicaps mentioned above. Setting up VI with inserts and such takes literally just seconds and handling midi automation has so far been absolute joy compared to FLStudio where I came from. For me atleast it is very intuitive DAW.

About creating folders for instruments and effects... that's actually nice idea. I haven't got so many of them so I didn't have need for that currently. Nevertheless I had to boot up S1 and test this and _you actually can do exactly that_. If you organize your instrument view by folders (I think its organized by vendors by default), you can create new folders and subfolders, drag your instruments and effects in and out of them etc. So this thing is also handled very nicely in S1.


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## aegisninja (Apr 27, 2020)

So I think I am leaning a bit towards Cubase at the moment, but the one thing that is somewhat pushing me toward S1 is that I do also record bands. Does Cubase have an intuitive workflow for editing actual audio, such as drum tracks?


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## greggybud (Apr 27, 2020)

labornvain said:


> In the terms of midi, I have a template that has 2500 tracks. If I want to find a nice patch for spicatto cellos, I have logical editor presets that allow me to hide all tracks but the spicatto cellos. I had to set that up,



Hello. Could you or anyone else direct me to a tutorial(s) or even some personal Logical Editor screen shots that achieve this? I did it once before, but with underwhelming results.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 27, 2020)

aegisninja said:


> I don't mean to start any sort of DAW flame-war here



Then where did you mean to start it?


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## JohnG (Apr 27, 2020)

Digital Performer has just added a very interesting feature called "Clips," which adds an entirely new way of working.

I still use DP and this is just one more reason to stay with it.


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## labornvain (Apr 27, 2020)

Jackdaw said:


> Regarding Studio One I'm a bit confused about the criticism in this thread. I just moved to S1 roughly a week ago with no experience with it at all and I could create stuff with it in minutes and didn't experience any of those handicaps mentioned above. Setting up VI with inserts and such takes literally just seconds and handling midi automation has so far been absolute joy compared to FLStudio where I came from. For me atleast it is very intuitive DAW.
> 
> About creating folders for instruments and effects... that's actually nice idea. I haven't got so many of them so I didn't have need for that currently. Nevertheless I had to boot up S1 and test this and _you actually can do exactly that_. If you organize your instrument view by folders (I think its organized by vendors by default), you can create new folders and subfolders, drag your instruments and effects in and out of them etc. So this thing is also handled very nicely in S1.


Yeah, my apologies for that. It appears that my critiques of both Reaper and Studio One were a bit outdated, at least in some of the examples I cited. It's actually been a few years since I really tested out either, and that's like eons in terms of software development.

I spent a couple hours yesterday with both applications and I was very impressed with how much they've improved since the last time I used them. I still stand by my general assessment though, that Cubase is still a bit more advanced in terms of features.

But I'm quite a bit more optimistic in the prospects of either of these applications surpassing Cubase and allowing me to switch.


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## labornvain (Apr 27, 2020)

greggybud said:


> Hello. Could you or anyone else direct me to a tutorial(s) or even some personal Logical Editor screen shots that achieve this? I did it once before, but with underwhelming results.


Yeah, so the trick is to first, when creating all your tracks for your template, employ a naming convention.





Then, you can set up Project Logical Editor presets that show or hide all tracks that include, for example, the text "Violas Short" in the track name. 






Once you've created all the presets for toggling the visibility of you different track types, you'll end up with a preset menu that looks something like this:






In Explorer on Windows, you can organize all your Project Logical Editor presets here:

C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\Steinberg\Cubase 10.5_64\Presets\Project Logical Editor\Visibility\

I attached the preset for "Violas Short" so you can play with it. Just copy it to the "Visibility" folder addressed above.

I also attached the entire "Visibility" folder. Just make a copy of your own before replacing it. To use these presets, you can just rename your various tracks using the naming convention I used and it should work.

You'll probably want to set up your own system though thus the backup suggestion.

To use the presets, you can open the PLE, select a preset, and hit Apply.

Faster though is the drop down you get by clicking the little house shaped "Visibility Agents" icon and then navigating to the preset you want to use.






I have these presets set to "toggle". This means that every time you select a preset, it will change the visibility state from "show" to "hide" or vice versa.


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## AmbientMile (Apr 28, 2020)

I didn't see anyone else mention it, but consider Tracktion's Waveform. At first glance it looks kind of simplistic, but its very powerful under the hood. My primary DAW is Logic, but I will use Waveform on occasion on the Mac and when I am using my Windows machine to shake things up. It is very reasonably priced and they offer a trial version so what do you have to lose?


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## Bluemount Score (Apr 28, 2020)

All DAWs are equally bad.


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## DS_Joost (Apr 28, 2020)

Bluemount Score said:


> All DAWs are equally bad.



Yup, they all suck! Just save up for a tape machine, a mic and your own personal orchestra.😉


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## easyrider (Apr 28, 2020)

labornvain said:


> I could go on and on. One of my latest favorites is Cubase now allows you to organize all of your effects plugins by categories of your choosing. So if I'm looking for an 1176, I click on the insert plug in dialogue, navigate to 1176 folder, and voila. there they are.
> 
> I had to set this up but I now have all of my plug-ins organized by what they do or what they are. For example, in one folder called reverbs, I have subfolders for spring, vintage plates, convolution, rooms, Etc. I can't even imagine working without that now.



You can do that in S1


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## aegisninja (Apr 28, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Then where did you mean to start it?



Uhh... idk, gearslutz?


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## greggybud (Apr 28, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Yeah, so the trick is to first, when creating all your tracks for your template, employ a naming convention.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. I'll check this out.


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## zigzag (Apr 28, 2020)

Each DAW excels at some things, while lacks at some others. 

I started with Reaper and then added Cubase to my toolbox. I still use both. Cubase for midi composing and Reaper for mixing and sound effects design. 

One downside of Reaper is not that you can customize it, but that you _have to _customize it in order to be really productive with it. Out-of-the-box Reaper is lacking, but after you spend a lot of time customizing, it can be a really powerful tool. Also (off topic), Stream Deck is a perfect match for Reaper (as you'll need a way to access all those actions).

For orchestral music I find Cubase much better than Reaper. There are features in Cubase that can't be replicated with scripts in Reaper. For example you can't create a chord track and then have note colors (in MIDI editor) follow those chords (eg. chord note, scale note, non-scale note) like you can in Cubase.

Also you can't use alt-tab in Reaper to switch between main window / MIDI editor / mixer. Which can be extremely annoying. 

But to be honest, there are also a lot of weird quirks in Cubase too. For example you can't copy/paste articulations in Expression Map Setup. Or that you can't have multiple projects active at the same time (big drawback, if you need to switch between project files a lot). Also, you can't just copy/paste tracks between projects like you can in Reaper. 

There are many other differences. It's best to try a few different DAWs and try to learn about strengths and weaknesses of each.


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## greggybud (Apr 28, 2020)

zigzag said:


> Also you can't use alt-tab in Reaper to switch between main window / MIDI editor / mixer. Which can be extremely annoying.



This seems odd because I think that's a Windows function, not specific to any one program. In Cubase, other than close/open, this is the only way to navigate from one window to another.

I've never understood modifier keys very well. For example, ctr+o (I think) in most any program opens a selection window. It works in Cubase. But even thought the same shortcut is listed in MidiQuest, nothing happens.


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## zigzag (Apr 28, 2020)

greggybud said:


> This seems odd because I think that's a Windows function, not specific to any one program. In Cubase, other than close/open, this is the only way to navigate from one window to another.


Windows OS sees only one Reaper window, no matter how many editors you have open inside the program. Probably it has something to do with the way Reaper creates those windows.


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## EgM (Apr 28, 2020)

zigzag said:


> Windows OS sees only one Reaper window, no matter how many editors you have open inside the program. Probably it has something to do with the way Reaper creates those windows.



Windows that are inside one application usually use ctrl+tab to cycle through windows, maybe that works?


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## zigzag (Apr 28, 2020)

EgM said:


> Windows that are inside one application usually use ctrl+tab to cycle through windows, maybe that works?


Unfortunately, it doesn't. There is a script to cycle through windows by closing and reopening them, but it's nowhere as nice as Windows alt-tab switching which shows you a preview window.


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## DS_Joost (Apr 28, 2020)

zigzag said:


> There is a script to cycle through windows by closing and reopening them, but it's nowhere as nice as Windows alt-tab switching which shows you a preview.



And there's my always continueing problem with Reaper. It having superadvanced features whilst needing external scripts that might or might not work the next time you update the thing for the most basic things. Thus meaning more margin for error, more key commands to remember, less time making actual music.

It's not just a one time thing either. Whenever I would open up Reaper I would certainly have to open the forum too for finding the most basic things. It baffles me every time.


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## musicalweather (Apr 28, 2020)

DP! I've been using it for almost 15 years and love it! 

For a treasure trove of excellent information and comparison of DAWs, I'd head over to* Admiral Bumblebee. *


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## Franklin (Apr 29, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Yeah, so the trick is to first, when creating all your tracks for your template, employ a naming convention.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seen many tutorials on YT and got lost without actually being able to create a proper template yet for all my VSTs of mostly orchestral. Your way of doing things looks very efficient. Can you point me to a tutorial (start to finish) which shows how to do this in Cubase?


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## labornvain (Apr 29, 2020)

Franklin said:


> Seen many tutorials on YT and got lost without actually being able to create a proper template yet for all my VSTs of mostly orchestral. Your way of doing things looks very efficient. Can you point me to a tutorial (start to finish) which shows how to do this in Cubase?


I'm sorry, I cannot. I developed the system that you cited, so that's pretty much the best tutorial you're going to get. I'm not sure what you're having problems with. But I'm more than happy to answer any questions you might have about the showing hiding track methodology that I posted.


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## bosone (Apr 29, 2020)

why not trying cakewalk by bandlab? completely free, easy to use and absolutely professional with all you need (I'm a cakewalk user since 20 years)


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## greggybud (Apr 29, 2020)

zigzag said:


> Unfortunately, it doesn't. There is a script to cycle through windows by closing and reopening them, but it's nowhere as nice as Windows alt-tab switching which shows you a preview window.



While it appears Cubase is a definite advantage with this issue, one of my very long-standing feature requests is improved focus and navigation within Cubase. Yes, any windows you close and reopen will get focus. Or for example you have a key command to open the key/drum/sample editors, history window or a host of other windows inside Cubase that give focus, but once open, and you want to focus something else, the Windows modifier of ctr+tab which cycles...or ctr+w to close a particular Cubase window, is the only way I know of to do it.



bosone said:


> why not trying cakewalk by bandlab? completely free, easy to use and absolutely professional with all you need (I'm a cakewalk user since 20 years)



Actually it lacks quite a few features. No one particular DAW is going to work for everyone.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 29, 2020)

aegisninja said:


> Uhh... idk, gearslutz?


They already have a bunch there. And an annual poll.


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## aegisninja (Apr 29, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> They already have a bunch there. And an annual poll.



I was joking lol.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 29, 2020)

aegisninja said:


> I was joking lol.


I figured.  

I've read thru a number and participated in a few. They get pretty heated, especially the Reaper users. It's actually kind of funny.


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## zigzag (Apr 30, 2020)

greggybud said:


> one of my very long-standing feature requests is improved focus and navigation within Cubase. Yes, any windows you close and reopen will get focus. Or for example you have a key command to open the key/drum/sample editors, history window or a host of other windows inside Cubase that give focus, but once open, and you want to focus something else, the Windows modifier of ctr+tab which cycles...or ctr+w to close a particular Cubase window, is the only way I know of to do it.


With alt+tab you get ability to select specific window with a mouse or arrow keys. The downside is you see previews from all open applications. What's missing in Cubase is one-key command to focus the main window and shortcuts to focus a specific zone in the main window (eg focus project zone, focus lower zone).

EDIT: Advantage of alt+tab vs ctrl+tab is that alt+tab remembers last focused windows and orders them, giving you ability to quickly toggle between two windows. With ctrl+tab you have to cycle through all of Cubase's opened windows each time.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 30, 2020)

The OP should download the demos and try them out.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 30, 2020)

kitekrazy said:


> The OP should download the demos and try them out.


No, no. It is much easier to ask everyone's opinion and then complain later. Because there is something wrong with all of them and it won't show up in a test drive.  

No, really it is a good idea if the DAW offers it. 

Actually, a better question is, why shouldn't i buy XXX DAW? That way you can see if you can live with all the bad things.


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