# $$$Series Fee Range for Composers?



## Bropecia (Apr 20, 2019)

Anyone who can weigh in would be helpful. The producers of the show I am on are putting together a budget should they get a re-order. First season they just got the budget they were handed — going forward they’re going to put the pressure on network for a bit of a raise across the board. It’s basic cable, 10 eps, could extend to 13. Opinions of how much I should be making per episode so I can advise? Industry standard?

Thanks.


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## chillbot (Apr 20, 2019)

These days $2,000/episode is fairly common for basic cable. Budgets ain't what they used to be. And these questions always depend on situational context. If you can manage to keep the publishing, $2,000/episode + publishing is totally worth it. If not, I would base it on $100/minute so if you're averaging 40 minutes per episode ask for $4,000. In fact you could ask for $4k and then if they say that's too high you can counter with "well I could do it for $2k IF you let me keep the publishing..."


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## Bropecia (Apr 20, 2019)

Awesome thanks. Good call.


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## CT (Apr 20, 2019)

chillbot said:


> These days $2,000/episode is fairly common for basic cable. Budgets ain't what they used to be. And these questions always depend on situational context. If you can manage to keep the publishing, $2,000/episode + publishing is totally worth it. If not, I would base it on $100/minute so if you're averaging 40 minutes per episode ask for $4,000. In fact you could ask for $4k and then if they say that's too high you can counter with "well I could do it for $2k IF you let me keep the publishing..."



Man, I just want to say how much I appreciate when you share your insights on stuff like this. 

Sometimes I pick up bits of VI/musical knowledge on here, but it's the feeling of being more equipped to think as a business person after reading a chillbot post that I really like. If I'm ever in the position to actually do business as a composer, I think I'll be in much better shape than I might otherwise be, thanks to you.


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## Fitz (Apr 20, 2019)

miket said:


> Man, I just want to say how much I appreciate when you share your insights on stuff like this.
> 
> Sometimes I pick up bits of VI/musical knowledge on here, but it's the feeling of being more equipped to think as a business person after reading a chillbot post that I really like. If I'm ever in the position to actually do business as a composer, I think I'll be in much better shape than I might otherwise be, thanks to you.


For what it’s aorth, I currently get $3500 for a 10 min episode... so it varies.


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## Bropecia (Apr 20, 2019)

Fitz said:


> For what it’s aorth, I currently get $3500 for a 10 min episode... so it varies.


Fitz, 10 mins of music or... 10min ep?


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## Bropecia (Apr 20, 2019)

miket said:


> Man, I just want to say how much I appreciate when you share your insights on stuff like this.
> 
> Sometimes I pick up bits of VI/musical knowledge on here, but it's the feeling of being more equipped to think as a business person after reading a chillbot post that I really like. If I'm ever in the position to actually do business as a composer, I think I'll be in much better shape than I might otherwise be, thanks to you.


Totally agree.


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## Fitz (Apr 20, 2019)

Bropecia said:


> Fitz, 10 mins of music or... 10min ep?


11 min ep


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## chillbot (Apr 20, 2019)

Fitz said:


> For what it’s aorth, I currently get $3500 for a 10 min episode... so it varies.


Yes it varies. If you're a member of any number of FB groups you've seen the same question come up 100+ times. It's impossible to answer definitively, you might as well ask "what color clothes does the producer generally wear". If you have a gig writing for a series you are damn lucky, especially for basic cable which has almost entirely shifted to library music in the last 10 years. But none of that really helps answer the question so I would still go with my original answer, $2,000/episode is fairly common for basic cable. It's the best figure I can offer without knowing the context and may be completely off by a couple thousand either way.

$3,500 for 10 minutes is fantastic, congrats! I don't know what you're working on but I haven't seen any basic cable series (in the US, at least) that are 11 minutes long.


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## Fitz (Apr 22, 2019)

chillbot said:


> Yes it varies. If you're a member of any number of FB groups you've seen the same question come up 100+ times. It's impossible to answer definitively, you might as well ask "what color clothes does the producer generally wear". If you have a gig writing for a series you are damn lucky, especially for basic cable which has almost entirely shifted to library music in the last 10 years. But none of that really helps answer the question so I would still go with my original answer, $2,000/episode is fairly common for basic cable. It's the best figure I can offer without knowing the context and may be completely off by a couple thousand either way.
> 
> $3,500 for 10 minutes is fantastic, congrats! I don't know what you're working on but I haven't seen any basic cable series (in the US, at least) that are 11 minutes long.



It varies, yes. But not as blatant as your analogy makes it out to be. The most important thing for anyone getting on a cable show really isn’t the up front fee. 

It’s the PRO backend. In my experience, this is leagues more important for financial longevity of a business and could add but to much more than the initial fees.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 23, 2019)

Fitz said:


> It’s the PRO backend



Agreed. In my area, it would be insanity to ask for $2000 per episode for basic cable, the budgets just aren't there any more. For an 11 minute episode, I'm thinking something like $2000 upfront for the entire series, plus backend.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 23, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Agreed. In my area, it would be insanity to ask for $2000 per episode for basic cable, the budgets just aren't there any more. For an 11 minute episode, I'm thinking something like $2000 upfront for the entire series, plus backend.



$2K upfront?

I guess that is enough to buy a few new sample libraries and to pay for internet for a few months. No budget for food or coffee though. Gotta keep that McDonalds job for that stuff.


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## Bropecia (Apr 23, 2019)

Pardon my ignorance but what is an 11 min episode? I thought 24 mins is the shortest basic cable show.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 23, 2019)

11 minutes or 24 minutes, I still think IMHO that $2K upfront per episode on basic cable is crazy....but if you are successful in getting it, good on you.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 23, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> $2K upfront?
> 
> I guess that is enough to buy a few new sample libraries and to pay for internet for a few months. No budget for food or coffee though. Gotta keep that McDonalds job for that stuff.



Sure, but ten episodes would be $20k.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 24, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Sure, but ten episodes would be $20k.



Oh, I thought you meant $2K for music for the whole season of the show.


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## chrisr (Apr 24, 2019)

an 11 minute ep will likely be for a children's series, for those that are wondering.

best,
Chris


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 24, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> Oh, I thought you meant $2K for music for the whole season of the show.



Yes, which seems more realistic. But from what I'm reading, it's per episode.


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## chillbot (Apr 24, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I'm thinking something like $2000 upfront for the entire series





Wolfie2112 said:


> Sure, but ten episodes would be $20k


This is why you've gone and confused poor Desire Inspires.



Wolfie2112 said:


> I still think IMHO that $2K upfront per episode on basic cable is crazy


$2,000/episode is extremely low but that's what it has come to. That can be around $50/minute for an hour-long episode, but hopefully they will re-use tracks so it's not quite that bad. At least it's livable.

In your scenario, $2k upfront for an entire series, you are going to write potentially 400 minutes of music for $2k? And you think MY figures are crazy?



Fitz said:


> The most important thing for anyone getting on a cable show really isn’t the up front fee. It’s the PRO backend. In my experience, this is leagues more important for financial longevity of a business and could add but to much more than the initial fees.


Of course I agree that royalties are uber-important but I disagree that they are the "most important thing". What are you going to live on until they start rolling in... and it can be a very long wait for a slow trickle. Yes some people get fortunate and get a hit series that reruns like crazy for years. Other people score a 10-episode series where the first episode aired one time and they yanked the whole thing, never aired another episode (this happened to me). Royalties are down overall as well from 10 years ago with all the streaming services, hopefully they will catch up at some point.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 24, 2019)

chillbot said:


> $2,000/episode is extremely low but that's what it has come to.



I thought was high lol! I could be so lucky  In my experience (at least in my area) that is just not going to happen these days. Producers would rather license music for a fraction of that cost, and use it for the full series. It's obviously different in other demographics. I'm talking basic cable here.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 24, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I thought was high lol! I could be so lucky  In my experience (at least in my area) that is just not going to happen these days. Producers would rather license music for a fraction of that cost, and use it for the full series. It's obviously different in other demographics. I'm talking basic cable here.



Producers sound like bums.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 24, 2019)

Depending on the cable network and depending on how many airings your show gets, the upfront fee may be dwarfed by the backend performance royalties. You can call ASCAP or BMI and they can tell you exactly how much each minute per airing will pay. The number of potential reruns will just be a guess, of course, but you'll be able to get a ballpark idea of what the backend really is.

That backend might be an unpleasantly low surprise. (I remember once being told 80 cents per minute for a show I was offered on a less popular network.) If that's the case, then you can play hardball with the negotiations. Why not? Other composers aren't going to try to steal your job if the show is on the Knitting Network.

If it's on USA or Discovery, though, then be aware that clients or network execs often have friends who are composers, so I wouldn't be too aggressive in the negotiating, because even if the fee is low, the show is still worthwhile. $4k is not an unreasonable ask, but I think Chillbot is right that you'll likely end up at $2k or less, so I'd make sure you're positioned to backpedal quickly if they take it the wrong way.

On the other hand ...

There's also something to be said for playing it the other way. I'm a cocky bastard, so depending on the situation, especially if I could do this in person, I think I would ask $5k to $10k per episode. Admittedly high, but for composers of my "generation," that's not an out-of-line ask and it might even raise their view of me. I doubt they'd take it, but you never know. I'm pretty good at reading a room, so depending on the reaction, I could backpedal accordingly, and even if we do settle on $2k, the process could make them feel more like they got a pro to do their show.

I mention that because I've seen situations where friends asked for fees that I considered way over the top ... and they got them! One in particular was a guy who bid for a theme park background loop. He bid (and they accepted) $50k for a gig I would have bid under $10k. That taught me a lesson and I've been a lot bolder in my negotiations since then.

Back to the first hand, though, if the PRO royalties look good, priority one is _keep_ the gig, so use the "cocky bastard" technique with caution. 

Also FWIW, I've never been able to keep the publisher's share on a TV show, although maybe with today's lower fees, that's more of a possibility. I'd certainly try, and I like Chillbot's idea of asking $4k as leverage to get $2k and keep publishing, but it's never worked for me.


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## chrisr (Apr 25, 2019)

On a slightly different tack, back around the turn of millenium (actually probably just before - late 90's) I did a day round table record and mix for Sun Microsystems (now Oracle) - it was just a few mics recording execs in the morning, then quick edit and music top/tail in the afternoon. The studio I worked at specialised in corporate gigs and had a sales team who actively went out to sell this sort of work. The session had champagne for lunch and other nice 'exec' trimmings but was otherwise completely unremarkable - boring even. The days recording/edit, and subsequent run of a few hundred CD's was sold to them for £25k. As I recall there were several gigs like that which could best be described as the middle/exec management "using up the budget" - so that they could legitimately ask for more ££ for the next year. I suspect such days are probably long behind us now. I probably saw about £80 of that figure (I was a full time employee of the studio on a fairly low wage) - the sales guys would have seen about £2-3k I imagine, and the studio would likely have cleared £20k for the day.

Edit - should also add that back then the dollar/pound was close to 2/1 - so that would be around $45k I guess.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 25, 2019)

chrisr said:


> I suspect such days are probably long behind us now.



I think you are probably correct. And back then, you needed some expensive equipment to score to picture, you couldn't simply load up a video file in your DAW and do what we do today.


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## chrisr (Apr 25, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> you needed some expensive equipment



I would likely have been recorded to a soundscape SSHDR1 system - middling expense - absolutely cheap as chips in comparison to PT rigs back then. In fairness I can't quite remember - it may have been recorded to a fostex b16!!


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## Soundhound (Apr 26, 2019)

This also sounds like a dotcom era thing. So many young companies and startups then were flooded with cash and didn’t know what to do with it all. It was kind of a hilarious time, one place i worked had a raft of automatic espresso/late/whatever the hell you want machines that we all got to use for free. I drank so much coffee i got paranoid driving around marina del rey thinking i was being followed.



chrisr said:


> On a slightly different tack, back around the turn of millenium (actually probably just before - late 90's) I did a day round table record and mix for Sun Microsystems (now Oracle) - it was just a few mics recording execs in the morning, then quick edit and music top/tail in the afternoon. The studio I worked at specialised in corporate gigs and had a sales team who actively went out to sell this sort of work. The session had champagne for lunch and other nice 'exec' trimmings but was otherwise completely unremarkable - boring even. The days recording/edit, and subsequent run of a few hundred CD's was sold to them for £25k. As I recall there were several gigs like that which could best be described as the middle/exec management "using up the budget" - so that they could legitimately ask for more ££ for the next year. I suspect such days are probably long behind us now. I probably saw about £80 of that figure (I was a full time employee of the studio on a fairly low wage) - the sales guys would have seen about £2-3k I imagine, and the studio would likely have cleared £20k for the day.
> 
> Edit - should also add that back then the dollar/pound was close to 2/1 - so that would be around $45k I guess.


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## Bropecia (Apr 27, 2019)

thanks everybody, appreciate all the feedback. very helpful.


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## Iswhatitis (Feb 6, 2020)

Bropecia said:


> thanks everybody, appreciate all the feedback. very helpful.


Thought you may find this interesting and anyone who stumbles on this post.






How Much Money Do Film Scorers Get Paid?


How Much Money Do Film Scorers Get Paid?. Music has long been a source of emotion in movies. Take your average horror film. By the music alone, you probably know that the killer is lurking just around the corner. Dramas, on the other hand, use scores to expose inner feelings or heighten the...




work.chron.com





“Music has long been a source of emotion in movies. Take your average horror film. By the music alone, you probably know that the killer is lurking just around the corner. Dramas, on the other hand, use scores to expose inner feelings or heighten the tension between characters. Regardless of their use, scores are almost always written by a composer, and the rates will vary from project to project.

*Salary Overview*
In 2011, music directors and composers averaged $53,760 a year, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, or BLS. Because high salaries can sometimes skew the average, median wage is often used to predict a music director’s or composer’s true earnings. Half of all people in either of these occupations earned less than $47,410 a year. Neither figure, however, differentiates the salary of a music director from that of a composer. The two are rarely paid the same wage.

*Scoring Fees*
A survey conducted by “Film Music Magazine” found that rates vary greatly by type of project, as well as the film budget. If the composer is hired to simply score the film, she’s paid a “creative fee” of $150,000 to $450,000 for a medium budget film, and $35,000 to $2 million for a high budget film.

*Package Deals*
Not all composers are paid creative fees. In fact, this is becoming less frequent in the film industry. Instead, studios are now opting for a “package deal,” where the composer actually pays for all productions costs and the studio is given a finished product. For a studio feature, composers are paid $60,000 to $250,000 for a low budget film, $250,000 to $350,000 for a medium budget film and $400,000 to $2 million for a high budget film. With a studio indie, deals are much lower, averaging $35,000 to $60,000 for a low budget film, $75,000 to $150,000 for a medium budget film and $200,000 for a high budget film. Straight up indies pay composers $2,500 to $15,000 for low budget productions, $25,000 to $75,000 for medium budget productions and over $75,000 for high budget productions, according to Film Music Magazine.

*Orchestration Rates*
Many composers rely on orchestrators to orchestrate their music. The orchestrator arranges the score for orchestral performance, giving each instrument sheet music to perform the piece. The American Federation of Musicians Union has set the rate at $26 to $65 per page for orchestration. Orchestrators with a proven track record, however, tend to earn more, getting an average of $75 to $110 per page.

*2016 Salary Information for Music Directors and Composers*
Music directors and composers earned a median annual salary of $50,110 in 2016, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. On the low end, music directors and composers earned a 25th percentile salary of $35,020, meaning 75 percent earned more than this amount. The 75th percentile salary is $70,510, meaning 25 percent earn more. In 2016, 74,800 people were employed in the U.S. as music directors and composers.”


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