# Why is it said that pro tools is weak when it comes to midi?



## Dbchops (Oct 31, 2015)

I've heard it said over and over that pro tools is one of the best DAWS for recording and editing audio, but that when it comes to midi programming and composing, although it's capable in this aspect it's not nearly as strong as some of the other big name DAWS out there, in the midi realm. Why is this? 

I got pro tools 11(PC) in a student deal not too long ago, and I'm learning it pretty well, but I'm now realizing that the majority of the stuff i want to be working on will be using virtual instruments and midi, rather than recording audio. I want to start making more film-score type compositions. Would something like cubase be more up my alley. Or should i just stick with pro tools and do midi in there? 

Thanks


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 31, 2015)

The weakness has to do with the tools and techniques they provide for MIDI editing, and the ease with which you can perform MIDI editing as compared to other DAWs. Coming from a long Logic background, I find it downright painful to edit note velocities, note lengths, and CC's on PT. Also, when CC's and other kinds of continuous control data are recorded, PT records that kind of stuff like traditional track automation. I know some people like that, but I find that it only gets in the way. Example: if I record modwheel movements (CC1) starting with the wheel at a mid-way position and moving it up, PT insists on inserting a CC1 value of zero at the very top of the track. This isn't exactly "weak" behavior, but for me it's highly undesirable.

Anyway, it's not like PT records MIDI any less successfully or accurately than on any other DAW. The weaknesses are all about the editing and how easy it is compared to other DAWs like Logic or Cubase, etc.


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## Arbee (Oct 31, 2015)

Dbchops said:


> I've heard it said over and over that pro tools is one of the best DAWS for recording and editing audio, but that when it comes to midi programming and composing, although it's capable in this aspect it's not nearly as strong as some of the other big name DAWS out there, in the midi realm. Why is this?
> 
> I got pro tools 11(PC) in a student deal not too long ago, and I'm learning it pretty well, but I'm now realizing that the majority of the stuff i want to be working on will be using virtual instruments and midi, rather than recording audio. I want to start making more film-score type compositions. Would something like cubase be more up my alley. Or should i just stick with pro tools and do midi in there?
> 
> Thanks


I came back to music around the time of Pro Tools 9 and have experienced no shortcomings with its MIDI for how I use it (I tend to play most things in and tweak here and there). I suspect some of the criticism may be historical because, as I understand it, Pro Tools was very slow to develop its MIDI capability compared to Cubase etc. And now that PT is 64 bit I see no reason to change, but that's just my view of the universe.


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## Daryl (Nov 1, 2015)

If you are not used to using the more advanced MIDI features that are available in Cubase or Logic, Pro Tools will be fine. However, if you are used to using those features, Pro Tools will be a PITA to use.

For me, as a mock-up is only ever a demo, I need the most advanced features possible that will give me a very quick result for the least amount of effort. Pro Tools can't do this. Nuendo can.

D


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## DHousden (Nov 1, 2015)

Peter Schwartz said:


> The weakness has to do with the tools and techniques they provide for MIDI editing, and the ease with which you can perform MIDI editing as compared to other DAWs. Coming from a long Logic background, I find it downright painful to edit note velocities, note lengths, and CC's on PT. Also, when CC's and other kinds of continuous control data are recorded, PT records that kind of stuff like traditional track automation. I know some people like that, but I find that it only gets in the way. Example: if I record modwheel movements (CC1) starting with the wheel at a mid-way position and moving it up, PT insists on inserting a CC1 value of zero at the very top of the track. This isn't exactly "weak" behavior, but for me it's highly undesirable.
> 
> Anyway, it's not like PT records MIDI any less successfully or accurately than on any other DAW. The weaknesses are all about the editing and how easy it is compared to other DAWs like Logic or Cubase, etc.


I was taught on Pro-Tools at university and didn't move to Logic until a couple of years ago when Avid made the switch to RTAS and rendered the majority of my libraries unusable for a period. I probably prefer Logic now for MIDI, (Pro-Tools is still untouchable for audio editing IMO) but I was doing exactly the same kind of work in Pro-Tools at roughly the same speed beforehand. I haven't found editing note velocities, lengths and CC information after the fact, to be any different between the two, so I'm either missing a trick in Logic or Pro-Tools is getting a bad rap there! 

Fair comment on the zero value though. As was also said, Pro-Tools does suffer when it comes to advanced MIDI editing, but in terms of basic functionality I genuinely believe that it will serve you just fine. At the end of the day, you'll get the best results out of whichever program you feel most comfortable on. Best of luck!


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## Vik (Nov 1, 2015)

DHousden said:


> I haven't found editing note velocities, lengths and CC information after the fact, to be any different between the two, so I'm either missing a trick in Logic or Pro-Tools is getting a bad rap there!


When it comes to editing note lengths and CC information, there's *a lot* of room for improvement in Logic.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 1, 2015)

Vik said:


> When it comes to editing note lengths and CC information, there's *a lot* of room for improvement in Logic.



How so? It seems to me that with the Event List and MIDI Transform sets in addition to the Piano Roll, Step Editor and Score Editors, it is pretty darned easy.


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## Rctec (Nov 1, 2015)

I


DHousden said:


> I was taught on Pro-Tools at university and didn't move to Logic until a couple of years ago when Avid made the switch to RTAS and rendered the majority of my libraries unusable for a period. I probably prefer Logic now for MIDI, (Pro-Tools is still untouchable for audio editing IMO) but I was doing exactly the same kind of work in Pro-Tools at roughly the same speed beforehand. I haven't found editing note velocities, lengths and CC information after the fact, to be any different between the two, so I'm either missing a trick in Logic or Pro-Tools is getting a bad rap there!
> 
> Fair comment on the zero value though. As was also said, Pro-Tools does suffer when it comes to advanced MIDI editing, but in terms of basic functionality I genuinely believe that it will serve you just fine. At the end of the day, you'll get the best results out of whichever program you feel most comfortable on. Best of luck!


I use both Protools and Cubase (and at RCP we literally have dozens of protools and other DAWs). But for real serious midi programming you can't beat a DAW like Cubase or Logic - just like for audio reliability you can't really beat a dsp based protools rig. But they do have a slightly different emphasis. While Digi/Avid was focused on the Broadcast/Postproduction market - with the occasional attention paid to composers - they are only now coming back to take a serious look at the needs of musicians. Cubase and Logic (I'm not really familiar with the other ones...) always had the musician - and therefore midi - as its target market, and the developments have been truly amazing in the last few years.


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## Vik (Nov 1, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> How so? It seems to me that with the Event List and MIDI Transform sets in addition to the Piano Roll, Step Editor and Score Editors, it is pretty darned easy.


This may be topic for another thread, since it's a PT thread. But even if many things can be done easily by people like you (and me) who have used Logic "forever", there are tons of things which can (and should) be doable with one click which not only requires many clicks on Logic. Btw, I think there's a thread here on VI-C somewhere where missing key commands in Logic are being discussed, including some key commands which are related to length. 

IMO, one should be able to define a note eg as a 1/16 note in an as simple way as possible, because length is such an essential part of music (along with timing and dynamics):
One could, for instance, redefine the length of a note by selecting it and clicking on a 1/16 note in the part box.
Or one could have a Key Command for each of the standard lengths. 
Ideally, it should also be possible to simply right click on the note and select "1/16" from a length submenu.

And talking about submenus, one of the simplest ways to choose a new articulation for a note is probably also to simply right click on it and select eg. "Marcato" from an articulation submenu.

If you want a hundred other suggestions about how Logic could have been simplified and modernise for compositional purposes, I'll write more if you want - but again, in another thread.


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## zvenx (Nov 1, 2015)

Why I find this 'surprising', in the sense that it isn't no news but surprised that it is so, was that I came from Studio Vision Pro from Opcode. To this day there are several things midiwise I like/preferred in Studio Vision Pro to Cubendo even 15 years later, but after Opcode was disbanded, I know Dave Oppenheim went to work for ProTools, specifically to work on their midi stuff. I am just surprised more didn't come out of that employment. Have no idea if he is still there however.

rsp


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## samphony (Nov 1, 2015)

I find that all major DAWs make a lot of progress right now. Even Avid is adding new "long overdue" features to pro tools like commit (equivalent of render in place/bounce in place)

@Dbchops
Why not keep on going with what you have until you reach a threshold that will eventually lead to creative workarounds or to the desire to add another DAW to your toolbox?

Don't fall into the trap of searching for the perfect DAW.


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## Peter Schwartz (Nov 1, 2015)

samphony said:


> Why not keep on going with what you have until you reach a threshold that will eventually lead to creative workarounds or to the desire to add another DAW to your toolbox?
> 
> Don't fall into the trap of searching for the perfect DAW.



_*THIS*_.... is wisdom.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 1, 2015)

Peter Schwartz said:


> _*THIS*_.... is wisdom.



+1


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## gsilbers (Nov 2, 2015)

Dbchops said:


> I've heard it said over and over that pro tools is one of the best DAWS for recording and editing audio, but that when it comes to midi programming and composing, although it's capable in this aspect it's not nearly as strong as some of the other big name DAWS out there, in the midi realm. Why is this?
> 
> I got pro tools 11(PC) in a student deal not too long ago, and I'm learning it pretty well, but I'm now realizing that the majority of the stuff i want to be working on will be using virtual instruments and midi, rather than recording audio. I want to start making more film-score type compositions. Would something like cubase be more up my alley. Or should i just stick with pro tools and do midi in there?
> 
> Thanks



Pro tools does midi ok. It does virtual instruments and I think you can do vst to rtas/axx wrappers so you get many instruments and effects. so in technical terms it works. many famous composers use it.

with that said, I would stir you away from pro tools for other reasons. mainly price vs performance. also, avid has been struggling and it keeps having random changes that doesn't make it as stable as a company/tech changes in my opinion.

If I could go back in time with what I know now... I would go for Cubase. (and an archival betting book of course!)


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