# The legitimacy of using samples for final release



## MarcusMaximus (Oct 11, 2020)

I have been wondering about this lately. I write mostly orchestral music intended for 'release' in its own right rather than for any media. Normally orchestral and other samples are used to produce mockups but can they also be used to create a final product? Is this a legitimate approach, i.e. to use samples not just for a mockup of the real thing but for the real thing itself? Are there any known artists who do this, or is it generally frowned upon? I am not in a position to afford a real orchestra to record my material plus I enjoy crafting pieces from the ground up but I have been wondering how realistic this approach is..


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## JohnG (Oct 11, 2020)

Hi Marcus,

It's not exactly "illegitimate," but I would worry you're short-changing yourself, especially if your music leans toward chamber-sized ensembles or smaller.

For "real loud" stuff, samples carry it off pretty well, but if you're trying to convey subtle ideas -- wistfulness, kindling emotions, nostalgia -- something sensitive, incorporating even one live player can be transformative.

Ten years later you won't remember $200 or even $500 for a soloist, but the tracks will sound a lot better.

If you are interested in hiring a soloist for demos or even just for your own satisfaction, plenty of players can record at home and do a very nice job.


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## mybadmemory (Oct 11, 2020)

I think people tend to overthink this? Music can be made, used, and released, by virtually anything. A tape recorder, a state of the art recording studio, an iPhone app, an orchestra, a synthesizer, or indeed a sample library. Creators like to use different things, are comfortable with different things, have different possibilities, and listeners have different tastes and opinions anyway. 

Just use what you have, what you can, what you like, and there will undoubtedly be people that are into listening to it as long as it’s actually any good. I myself love to listen to old video game-music from the 90s, both the real thing and new tracks made to sound like it. Not all crowds will accept everything, but if the question is “are there people in the world that would listen to sample-only orchestral music?” the answer is definitely yes!


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## MarcusMaximus (Oct 11, 2020)

Thanks guys.

Hi John. Yes I take your point. My material tends to be rather 'large-scale' in terms of orchestration and I feel I am learning how to convey more subtlety using samples, although of course that will always be limited depending on the libraries used, and also the level of my skills! However I have been surprised by how nuanced my latest stuff is managing to sound, to my ears anyway, which is down to careful use of modulation, vibrato, expression etc. as well as the orchestration itself. Though of course a more pro or expert listener might well disagree! My old composition teacher was pretty savage about the limitations of sample libraries. I do use guitars a lot in the recordings and given I am a guitarist, I can be the soloist in that sense! No doubt the more real musicians can be involved the better the music will sound so I will certainly think about what you suggest. I do know a rather wonderful cellist who might be willing to sprinkle some of her magic on my tracks..

What you say mybadmemory is of course very welcome. You put it very well and I agree absolutely. As long as it's 'any good' and I hope it is, there's room for anything. It's great to have that confirmed so thanks again!


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## Jetzer (Oct 11, 2020)

I have decided to let go of these thoughts. I have released some personal stuff thats just samples, because I just wanted to get it out there and just dont have a budget for a small ensemble.

I am definitely hiring a soloist for my next release though, because it features a solo cello, and I know from experience that it just soo much better when you get a real musician for these exposed parts!


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## Ashermusic (Oct 11, 2020)

If you like the music you have produced and are proud of the way it sounds, then release it and for heave’s sake, don’t let a bunch of guys on a forum change how you feel about the music.


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## col (Oct 11, 2020)

The reality is unless you have lots of cash to self fund an orchestra - samples is probably the only format the worlds going to hear your work - so I agree with above - if you are happy with it get it out there. Releasing a piece can be a way of letting it go and moving on to the next thing. If your happy enough to put it out there - it's done !...
And thank ∂ø˜† we have tools at least to put down the idea of it I say.
Just had a listen Mark - like it !


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## MarcusMaximus (Oct 11, 2020)

col said:


> The reality is unless you have lots of cash to self fund an orchestra - samples is probably the only format the worlds going to hear your work - so I agree with above - if you are happy with it get it out there. Releasing a piece can be a way of letting it go and moving on to the next thing. If your happy enough to put it out there - it's done !...
> And thank ∂ø˜† we have tools at least to put down the idea of it I say.
> Just had a listen Mark - like it !


Many thanks col, I appreciate you taking the time to listen and glad you like it. I was referring to some newer material that I’m currently working on but I am happy enough with what I did there.

Great Jay. I appreciate the down-to-earth encouragement! You are right of course but I wanted to see what folks thought about this. A sort of ‘reality check’ in the middle of working on a big (for me) new project.

It is also good advice to let go of these thoughts as you say Jetzer. Good to hear there are others in a similar boat to myself, releasing material using the tools we have to hand, with the caveat that if you can incorporate some real players along the way then that can really enhance the final result.

This is great guys, all really helpful.


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## purple (Oct 11, 2020)

I think it is if it's written with that in mind...
Actually I think it can be even if that isn't the case.
I don't think you should consider it frowned upon or anything.


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## MarcusMaximus (Oct 11, 2020)

Ok great thanks.


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## YaniDee (Oct 11, 2020)

I'm not clear on this..Are we referring to sampled instruments or "loops"?


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## Daryl (Oct 12, 2020)

There is nothing musically wrong with using samples for the end product. What is important is that you write what your samples do well. There is no point in writing something that would sound good with real players, if you can't make it sound any good with samples.


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## mybadmemory (Oct 12, 2020)

In my head samples are just instruments with strengths and weaknesses like any other. Not all songs will work well using a sampled orchestra, but nor would all songs work well using a bassoon. Or a bass guitar. Or the human voice.

Any instrument needs to be written for, and played according to its strengths. Sampled orchestras certainly can't do it all, but other things they can do just as well or even better than the real thing.

Also worth keeping in mind is that 98% of listeners can't even tell the difference. :D


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## Patrick.K (Oct 12, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> In my head samples are just instruments with strengths and weaknesses like any other. Not all songs will work well using a sampled orchestra, but nor would all songs work well using a bassoon. Or a bass guitar. Or the human voice.
> 
> Any instrument needs to be written for, and played according to its strengths. Sampled orchestras certainly can't do it all, but other things they can do just as well or even better than the real thing.
> 
> Also worth keeping in mind is that 98% of listeners can't even tell the difference. :D


Except those who go regularly listen to a symphony orchestra live, it makes a big difference with our samples! .😏
We must Newark of our familiarity with our libraries, they make us believe that what we hear is reality, but if it makes us happy, that is the main thing.


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## J-M (Oct 12, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Also worth keeping in mind is that 98% of listeners can't even tell the difference. :D



Yep, a big part of the "regular" listeners can't tell the difference. "Wow, are those real strings?!" is something I've heard a couple of times - even with my shoddy programming skills. "Boy, I couldn't even afford 10 minutes of rec time at Lyndhurst" is what I usually say to that...


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## Ashermusic (Oct 12, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Also worth keeping in mind is that 98% of listeners can't even tell the difference. :D



Actually, that is in my view the _least_ valid reason. We should not hold ourselves to that low a standard.


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## mybadmemory (Oct 12, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Actually, that is in my view the _least_ valid reason. We should not hold ourselves to that low a standard.



I believe if anything holds people back from making and releasing music, it's a bad thing. Even if it's obsession with quality or fear of being judged too hard. Better just make things, put them out there for people to enjoy, get some feedback and gradually improve, rather than worry too much if it's considered legit?


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## Ashermusic (Oct 12, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> I believe if anything holds people back from making and releasing music, it's a bad thing. Even if it's obsession with quality or fear of being judged too hard. Better just make things, put them out there for people to enjoy, get some feedback and gradually improve, rather than worry too much if it's considered legit?



Maybe it’s because I a am a lifelong pro, but I don’t put anything out that I am not pleased with the quality. Unless it’s for a client, whose approval I have to have, I don’t factor in what others think, “average” or not.


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## MOMA (Oct 12, 2020)

J-M said:


> Yep, a big part of the "regular" listeners can't tell the difference. "Wow, are those real strings?!" is something I've heard a couple of times - even with my shoddy programming skills. "Boy, I couldn't even afford 10 minutes of rec time at Lyndhurst" is what I usually say to that...



I could stretch it a bit further. Its true most people can't tell, and to be honest, most people don't care – if its a great sounding piece of music, or an exiting score in a film, they simply like it. And that about the importance they grant you and your precious work In addition to this fact we can hear impressive film scores based on both strings and synths in a unholy alliance, with great results.

So keep up the inspiring work, no matter the machines!

MOMA


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## MarcusMaximus (Oct 12, 2020)

YaniDee said:


> I'm not clear on this..Are we referring to sampled instruments or "loops"?


I was certainly referring to sampled instruments, not loops. I never use loops or pre-recorded orchestral phrases or whatever. Well I did once but that was a long time ago. I've never really seen the point in not writing everything myself. However as mybadmemory pointed out, everything can be considered a valid 'instrument' if it is used well and that must also apply to loops.

Writing to the strength of the samples is not something I've particularly taken on either, though I can see the sense in it. Personally I'd rather write the music I want to and do my best to find ways to make the tools sound as good as possible. Sure this will sometimes be a compromise but I've also heard several stories of composers, including Debussy, at times being deeply dissatisfied with how an orchestra or some particular players rendered their material. And with the sort of budget most of us have available you'd only get one short chance for a real orchestra to record a piece and you'd have to live with the results. At least with samples there is plenty of room to modify or re-do the performances and recordings we make with them.

I think the key here is to strive for as good a result as possible using whatever tools are available and if you're happy with the way it sounds, then trust that and be willing to stand over it. The idea that most people can't tell the difference between sampled and real instruments isn't necessarily a lowering of standards or an excuse to do sloppy work, it is more a statement of fact that we can use to our advantage by being less critical of our work and allowing it to be what it is. It also means that there will more likely be an audience who will listen to and enjoy what we produce.

I'd love to hear about any reasonably well-known composers/artists who have used sampled orchestral instruments in their recordings, if anyone would be prepared to share that. Doesn't have to be well-known actually, just anyone who has released stuff using orchestral samples in particular.


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## Zanshin (Oct 12, 2020)

MarcusMaximus said:


> I'd love to hear about any reasonably well-known composers/artists who have used sampled orchestral instruments in their recordings, if anyone would be prepared to share that.



Partial samples is more common of course. Danny Elfman in the VSL interview said he sometimes leaves percussion samples in (this interview is old I think? are there newer videos on his process... please and thank you). JXL in his vids on different projects has said he leaves some stuff sampled (Lacrimosa choir is one instance I remember).


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 12, 2020)

If it truly is "frowned upon", that might be a very good reason to start doing it more.


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## MarcusMaximus (Oct 12, 2020)

Zanshin said:


> Partial samples is more common of course. Danny Elfman in the VSL interview said he sometimes leaves percussion samples in (this interview is old I think? are there newer videos on his process... please and thank you). JXL in his vids on different projects has said he leaves some stuff sampled (Lacrimosa choir is one instance I remember).


Yes I am sure there are plenty of examples of people using samples partially, especially in movie or TV music, or music for other media. What I'm most interested in is whether there are people who use them more fully when releasing say an album, whatever the genre.


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## Zanshin (Oct 12, 2020)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Yes I am sure there are plenty of examples of people using samples partially, especially in movie or TV music, or music for other media. What I'm most interested in is whether there are people who use them more fully when releasing say an album, whatever the genre.



Oh I misunderstood. I'm interested too


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## jononotbono (Oct 12, 2020)

So much incredible music by incredible artists, bands, composers etc over decades and decades have used and continue to use samples in their music. This isn't a new thing. There is nothing wrong with it. Don't worry about it.


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## Zanshin (Oct 12, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> So much incredible music by incredible artists, bands, composers etc over decades and decades have used and continue to use samples in their music. This isn't a new thing. There is nothing wrong with it. Don't worry about it.



He's looking for examples of standalone orchestral music, using samples, made by reasonably well-known composers/artists. Pretty specific - so not DJ Shadow for example (who I adore haha).

But I agree, if the music is good it'll stand on it's own


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## Bear Market (Oct 12, 2020)

I believe our own @Blakus has said that his work on the Star Wars trailers were all samples. And the results were quite fab (my words not his).


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## jononotbono (Oct 12, 2020)

Zanshin said:


> He's looking for examples of standalone orchestral music, using samples, made by reasonably well-known composers/artists. Pretty specific - so not DJ Shadow for example (who I adore haha).
> 
> But I agree, if the music is good it'll stand on it's own



I didn't see the Orchestral part.

Man, I haven't listened to DJ Shadow for quite some time. Loved Endtroducing. Legendary!


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## MarcusMaximus (Oct 12, 2020)

Yes, more specifically orchestral samples as that's what I am trying to do. But good to be reminded that there are plenty of artists who have used samples in the broader sense. I grew up on the old prog rock of the 70's which made extensive use of the mellotron which was in effect a kind of orchestral sampler. However I am asking about it more in the sense that Zanshin described.


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