# PMC Panel Suggstion: New PRO for Composers



## kclements (Jan 26, 2019)

Hey Gang - 

Over at the Music for Picture section at GearSlutz we have been discussing the fact that even though the PROs are reporting record profits and payouts, composers are seeing decreasing royalties. I got an email from the PMA asking for panel suggestions and I wrote in about holding the PROs accountable to media composers and the possibility of creating a new PRO specifically for composers (as opposed to grouping artists and “stars” and such all together). 

The idea is that if enough people “petition” the PMA to have this panel at the upcoming PMC, maybe they will address it, or at the very least, the PRO’s make take some notice. And we can at least start the discussion.

I invite anyone who cares to to suggest the same kind of Panel to the PMC. Here is the link to the Panel suggestion form. You don’t need to be a member of the PMA to fill it out. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd4s8yyIeUsX6JXF6AN_yy-rpDquX53OFpRRNMqfOk-hUrTug/viewform (Panel Suggestion Form)

Cheers - 
kc


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## dannymc (Jan 30, 2019)

here here, its time for composers to union up with this shit or its only gonna get worse. i cant believe full time composers accept this on a daily basis like its just how it is. crazy. 

Danny


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 30, 2019)

dannymc said:


> here here, its time for composers to union up with this shit or its only gonna get worse. i cant believe full time composers accept this on a daily basis like its just how it is. crazy.
> 
> Danny



I agree. Since composing music for film and TV is a highly specialized field, it makes sense to start a union and have collective bargaining. It’s the Wild West out here!


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## Daryl (Jan 30, 2019)

dannymc said:


> here here, its time for composers to union up with this shit or its only gonna get worse. i cant believe full time composers accept this on a daily basis like its just how it is. crazy.
> 
> Danny


There are two big issues with the idea:

1. Established, successful composers have no incentive to join, as they would probably charge well above agreed rates, so have no need of a Union.

2. There is nothing to stop employers hiring non-Union composers to undercut agreed rates. 

There was a lot of discussion about this a few years ago, mainly centred around LA, and the would-be-fledgling-Union got no support from either employers or Government. That would need to change, if there was to be any traction with this idea.


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## dannymc (Jan 30, 2019)

> 1. Established, successful composers have no incentive to join, as they would probably charge well above agreed rates, so have no need of a Union.



surely the point here is that it doesnt matter whether if you are a established successful composers earning 100k in royalties a year you're still gonna see your earnings go down as a percentage of what you once got. i mean if i was earning a 100k in royalties a year my standard of living and life style would adjust to that. then all of a sudden i'm seeing statements of 50k a year i'd be pretty pissed. its all relative and therefore composers should be clever and realise this affects us all beginner up to veteran. 

Danny


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## kclements (Jan 30, 2019)

If you read through the original thread - it isn't about forming a union (which wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion - but as Daryl said, very hard to accomplish) it is about 1) holding the PROs more accountable for how they formulate payments to composers and 2) starting a new composer specific PRO. I am all for #1 - #2 seems a bit more of a challenge. 

The entire purpose of my original post was to petition the PMA to hold a panel so we can at least _start the discussion_. Nothing is going to change over night. But at least we can start talking about it openly and asking these questions of BMI/ASCAP/SEASAC


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## kclements (Jan 30, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> I agree. Since composing music for film and TV is a highly specialized field, it makes sense to start a union and have collective bargaining. It’s the Wild West out here!



I'm not so sure it's the "Wild West". We have the PROs and cue sheets and a system in place. The question - at least in my mind - is how do they determine how the composers get paid - what is the formula and can we persuade the PROs to be more transparent in their methods and accounting.


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 30, 2019)

kclements said:


> I'm not so sure it's the "Wild West". We have the PROs and cue sheets and a system in place. The question - at least in my mind - is how do they determine how the composers get paid - what is the formula and can we persuade the PROs to be more transparent in their methods and accounting.



No, it is the Wild West.


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## kclements (Jan 30, 2019)

Okay. Whatever.


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 30, 2019)

kclements said:


> Okay. Whatever.



Trust me, I speak from experience.

I have cue sheets filed with ASCAP and I have not been paid for these placements. This is for 11 different TV series.

Cue sheets do not guarantee that payments will be made. There is always the possibility that the placement does not fall within the ASCAP survey. If this happens, there will be no royalties paid out, even with cue sheets filed.

And the streaming rates are insanely low at the moment. Shows that were once broadcast on cable are moving over to streaming networks. The royalty payments for streaming are fractions of a cent.

Also, on GearSlutz, there is a post about ASCAP composers having their royalty checks decrease by 50% from last quarter. Things are changing and not necessarily in a great way. So it is the Wild West for some of us.


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## kclements (Jan 30, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> ...
> 
> Also, on GearSlutz, there is a post about ASCAP composers having their royalty checks decrease by 50% from last quarter. Things are changing and not necessarily in a great way. So it is the Wild West for some of us.



1) The post I linked to above in my original post IS the very same post. 
2) I guess we have a different opinion on what constitutes the Wild West. To me that means no systems, no rules, no laws - everyone is out for only themselves. I disagree that's where we are. 

I understand what you are saying about missing cue sheets and the survey and such. BMI has it's issues as well. T_hat is what I mean by holding the PROs accountable and being more transparent._ If you go back through the GS thread, you see a lot of people talking about exactly this - and it isn't necessarily about forming a union as much as accountability and the possibility of a new PRO. BUT, it starts by bringing it out into the open and starting a discussion. hence my suggestion for the PMA panel suggestions. It has been noted that the PMA listens to those suggestions, and if enough people speak up, they may hold the panel.


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 30, 2019)

kclements said:


> 1) The post I linked to above in my original post IS the very same post.
> 2) I guess we have a different opinion on what constitutes the Wild West. To me that means no systems, no rules, no laws - everyone is out for only themselves. I disagree that's where we are.
> 
> I understand what you are saying about missing cue sheets and the survey and such. BMI has it's issues as well. T_hat is what I mean by holding the PROs accountable and being more transparent._ If you go back through the GS thread, you see a lot of people talking about exactly this - and it isn't necessarily about forming a union as much as accountability and the possibility of a new PRO. BUT, it starts by bringing it out into the open and starting a discussion. hence my suggestion for the PMA panel suggestions. It has been noted that the PMA listens to those suggestions, and if enough people speak up, they may hold the panel.



I am not against holding a panel.

But I do think more than a panel is needed to bring more short term action.

Honestly, there needs to be a class action lawsuit to force the PROs to pay composers their fair share. Too much complacency and patience has resulted in composers being cheated out of money. Even a lot of publishers are complacent and afraid to speak up.

If we do get another PRO, who is to say that they will be more transparent or honest? Maybe in the short term they will. But long term, no way!

Anyway, please hold the panel.


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## Daryl (Jan 31, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> Honestly, there needs to be a class action lawsuit to force the PROs to pay composers their fair share. Too much complacency and patience has resulted in composers being cheated out of money. Even a lot of publishers are complacent and afraid to speak up.
> 
> If we do get another PRO, who is to say that they will be more transparent or honest? Maybe in the short term they will. But long term, no way!


There is a huge assumption being made, and that is that somehow the PROs are not paying out fairly. I would like to see some evidence, before jumping on that sort of bandwagon. Have you done an audit? Has anyone? If not, there is no point in even thinking about legal action.

It would seem to me that if somehow there was a large-scale unfair split of money, the large Publishers, such as Sony/ATV and Universal would be first in line to complain. Therefore, to me, it seems that there is something more going on. One of the most important things to look out is that, even thought the "pot" may seem to be increasing in size, how does that compare with the number of composers now expecting to receive Royalties? Without knowing this, I have no reason to believe that composers are being underpaid. And we're right back to transparency. To me, this is the most important thing. As long as one knows how the money is split, one can see where the problems, if any are, and I can tell you right now that many of the perceived problems are caused by the broadcasters, and not the PROs...!


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## dannymc (Jan 31, 2019)

for me its a no brainer. if your music gets used you should be getting paid for it. i dont know about BMI but with ASCAP you can have all the cue sheets in the world on file but if it doesnt show up in their survey system you wont be paid for it. they have been well aware of this for years now and there doesnt seem to be any appetite to change this as far as i can see. therefore i cant see any benefits to why any composer writing for media would join ASCAP over BMI. i cannot comment on BMI as i do not have experience with them. 

Danny


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 31, 2019)

dannymc said:


> for me its a no brainer. if your music gets used you should be getting paid for it. i dont know about BMI but with ASCAP you can have all the cue sheets in the world on file but if it doesnt show up in their survey system you wont be paid for it. they have been well aware of this for years now and there doesnt seem to be any appetite to change this as far as i can see. therefore i cant see any benefits to why any composer writing for media would join ASCAP over BMI. i cannot comment on BMI as i do not have experience with them.
> 
> Danny



This is exactly my experience. That is why I resigned from ASCAP.

I can’t speak for others, only for myself. I stand by my statements that at least ASCAP is not paying out fairly and should be sued.


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## ghostnote (Jan 31, 2019)

Well, you probably can't do anything about decreasing royalties, but you can do something to get your PRO chase your unreported TV placements.


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## dannymc (Jan 31, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> This is exactly my experience. That is why I resigned from ASCAP.
> 
> I can’t speak for others, only for myself. I stand by my statements that at least ASCAP is not paying out fairly and should be sued.



ditto. only way to get thru is vote with your feet. i also resigned. i'm sure they wont lose any sleep though over a few media composers leaving as long as the big stars dont leave. 

Danny


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 31, 2019)

ghostnote said:


> Well, you probably can't do anything about decreasing royalties, but you can do something to get your PRO chase your unreported TV placements.



I have filed a number of inquiries regarding missing royalties. I sent 11 right after Christmas. 

Unfortunately, I don’t expect a response. I still have inquiries from 2017 that haven’t been resolved. I follow up every few months, but get some canned response and no action. To hell with it.


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## Daryl (Jan 31, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> I have filed a number of inquiries regarding missing royalties. I sent 11 right after Christmas.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don’t expect a response. I still have inquiries from 2017 that haven’t been resolved. I follow up every few months, but get some canned response and no action. To hell with it.


What did they say when you rang them about it?


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 31, 2019)

Daryl said:


> What did they say when you rang them about it?



For the incidents from 2017, ASCAP said they would look into it. They told me other people were working on resolving the issues. They told me new cue sheets would be filed. After a few calls and emails, nothing was done. The inquires with ASCAP are still open.

I am urged to call them and ask about the 11 new inquiries I filed around Christmas last year. But what’s the point? I’ll be given the runaround again. Thankfully I resigned. I can’t do jack shit about the past. I can only move forward.

I have no idea why it takes this much work from a composer to get paid. The job of the PROs is to collect money from broadcasters and pay out that money to publishers and composers when their music is used.

How in the world is a composer supposed to have time to compose if he has to constantly chase down money? No one would work at a day job where they worked and always had to chase down people to get their paycheck. It is sad and maddening.


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## kclements (Jan 31, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> ...
> I have no idea why it takes this much work from a composer to get paid. The job of the PROs is to collect money from broadcasters and pay out that money to publishers and composers when their music is used.
> 
> How in the world is a composer supposed to have time to compose if he has to constantly chase down money? No one would work at a day job where they worked and always had to chase down people to get their paycheck. It is sad and maddening.



I can tell you from experience as a graphic designer - you always have to chase down money. I had a couple clients that paid on time - but any big corporation would either deny my invoice or fight me on every single line item. One well known Corp had a 90 day payout policy. Then, on the 80th day or so, would dispute the invoice and start the process over again.... Being a small player is a pain in the ass for many indy workers. I've heard very similar stories from a number of friends who run consulting businesses.

kc


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## gsilbers (Feb 1, 2019)

im like a broken reord wiht this... but here it goes one more time..

broadcast and streaming tv shows are about the same viewerwise... or at least in value. 
yet composers get less roaylties from streaming giants with the notion of a formula they pay per stream. which imo is very low. 

why i know. well.. lets say that i know as a fact that fox, disney and warner license their shows to netflix and amazon for the same price as they do to bbc, starz and skynetworks. so imo, its apple to apples nowadays.. not apples vs some time of of hidden cyber orange that noe one knows how money they have. 
so if the sales poeple at this studios can get out this much money from streaming companies why cant composer royoalties follow. 

here are some info about viewership. 
https://www.recode.net/2017/10/18/16495130/netflix-the-defenders-6-1-million-viewers-season-premiere

so imo a tv show in amazon should be paying about the same in the same period. 
i think bmi and ascap go by nielsen ratings based on what some poeple see in netflix but netflxi is saying.. nope its way more... whcih backfires for them in terms of composer royalties. great otherwise into getting more high end directors.


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