# Best singlebook for orchestration and instrumentation?



## JPQ (Nov 28, 2010)

Best singlebook for orchestration and instrumentation? when i look books in this topic in amazon.com and books have good and bad comments i think. and if book what you recommend have mistakes etc please tell about them.


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## nikolas (Nov 28, 2010)

I'd say the book by Adler!


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## synthetic (Nov 28, 2010)

What's this single book stuff?  I must have 6 books on orchestration alone, not counting the shelves of full scores. 

Adler is a safe bet though. You can get CDs with recordings of the score examples.


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## Dave Connor (Nov 28, 2010)

Adler if that's all you can get but Kent Kennan's book on instrumentation is a must have I would say. It's more compact and very easy to navigate. Also lots of very useful examples and exercises.


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## JPQ (Nov 28, 2010)

I think i cannot buy more than one book at time... and maybe more instrumentation than orchestation...


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## Dave Connor (Nov 28, 2010)

I would get the Kennan then. It's crystal clear and very easy to use and understand. I still use it more than any other book.


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## JPQ (Nov 29, 2010)

What instruments this Kennan book cover?


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## bryla (Nov 29, 2010)

JPQ you have a thread like this not that old. Lot of good advice there.


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## JPQ (Oct 19, 2013)

What is this Keenan book name ? found one bookshop one book by him:
The Technique of Orchestration
but he is not only who wrote this book.


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## TimJohnson (Oct 19, 2013)

Samuel Adler's Study of Orchestration is the bible, although some of his own ideas of how to orchestrate are somewhat bias. Best thing to do it read it with an open mind and treat it as a starting point, but after that the BEST thing you can do is talk to musicians. Talk to the tuba player and ask how high or low they can comfortably go. How long they can hold a note at FFF in their high register. It's a knowledge that gets built up over time from talking to people because books only go so far and often stay with the "safe" limits of what instruments can really do. No substitute for talking to the players!


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## AndreP (Oct 19, 2013)

I will throw in an added suggestion for the Samuel Adler book. If you can find them, purchase the workbooks that accompany them as well, as they are good exercises for orchestrating for many different scenarios and ensembles. 

If I were to try and recommend backups, I would have to pull from what I have in my library;

1. Samuel Adler's book
2. Walter Piston's book
(though, I would almost rate them both together as I read them both at the same 
time and they each have a wealth of information.)
3. Rimsky-Korsakov's book - This one is great because in 152 pages (the other half of
the book is comprises of music examples) he breaks down group combinations, 
what sound colors they create and how/when to possibly use them.
4. Kent Kennan's and Donald Grantham's book - A more compact book that still has wealth of knowledge and examples.


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## Oguz Sehiralti (Oct 19, 2013)

I think the Berlioz/Strauss book deserves an honorable mention: 

http://www.amazon.com/Treatise-Instrumentation-Dover-Books-Music/dp/0486269035/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382188461&sr=8-1&keywords=berlioz+orchestration (http://www.amazon.com/Treatise-Instrume ... hestration)

It's quite practical, and Strauss' examples and comments are great. Plus Berlioz's ideas about the gigantic orchestral sizes are worth reading.


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## JPQ (Oct 19, 2013)

I mayhe buy work books if Adler Workbook for example dont need cds. reason they dont work Intel Macs i heared. 
AndreP: what is this book name what you talk in 4. ? i mean book by Kent Kennan and Donald Grantham. i think technique of orchestration.
ps. Berlioz book is so cheap i very likely can get it same time when i buy Adlers book,and one mixing theory book...


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 19, 2013)

Dave Connor @ Sun Nov 28 said:


> I would get the Kennan then. It's crystal clear and very easy to use and understand. I still use it more than any other book.



That's the book I first learned with as well.


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## Rob (Oct 19, 2013)

I'd add Cecil Forsyth's "Orchestration"... it's a bit outdated, but unique in his genre for the abundance of information on instruments, and still a joy to read, imo. It's free on IMSLP library.


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## Leandro Gardini (Oct 19, 2013)

Traité de l'orchestration by Koechlin is the most complete one up until now. It's made of four thick volumes and cover many aspects that none of the most popular books don't cover.
Unfortunately, as far as I know, you won't find it outside france or in another language.


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## rgames (Oct 19, 2013)

The best reference for orchestration is a group of musicians.

Adler's book is good but a distant second to the knowledge you'll gain by working through a few hundred rehearsals and performances. You'll gain about 10% of your orchestration skill through the book and about 90% from the musicians and conductors who figure out how to take your music off the page.

Topics like harmony, voice leading and counterpoint can be learned from a book along with time spent sitting at a piano working through exercises. But orchestration has a much stronger "on the job training" element that you really can't get from a book.

So if you have performance experience then a textbook on orchestration is going to be a useful summary without much new information. That was my experience, anyway, and I've seen similar statements from many other composers (including John Williams).

rgames


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 19, 2013)

Not either/or. You need both. According to John's brother, percussionist Don Williams, John was diligently studying orchestration books at age 15 while practicing piano 3 hours a day.


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## JPQ (Oct 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat 19 Oct said:


> Not either/or. You need both. According to John's brother, percussionist Don Williams, John was diligently studying orchestration books at age 15 while practicing piano 3 hours a day.



You mean what ? i think you mean i need book for orchestration and another book for instrumentation. But i want know exactly...


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## JPQ (Oct 19, 2013)

I verylikely have situation my music new played by real musicans maybe expect few for special uses... but i still want wrote music which is possible play. ps. i hope i found here where i live musicans which want ansver things what some sayed here like how long someone can play with tuba high notes in fff... ps. is now hard know is Keenan or Adler my choice but maybe Keenan if you think is easy understand to me even Adler (i looked book form library) dont look hard when we talk such high level things.


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## ed buller (Oct 19, 2013)

books on orchestration tend to be divided into two sections. The first ( Usually the much bigger section )has a list off all instruments and their details. and usually examples of how they are used. 

The second section ( Usually this is the disappointing bit ) is a "how it all fit's together section". 
 
for my money ALL the orchestration books I own ( and i have about 13....) are severely lacking in this area. 

Adler, Keenan, Piston, Blatter, Forsyth and Prout all have strengths and weaknesses . 

Rimsky- Korsakov is good. As is Mancini's and Riddle's . 

Then you have books like "thinking for orchestra" which is wonderful. Also Garner Reads Books.
"Thesaurus of Orchestral Devices" and "Style and Orchestration." 

If i had to pick just one.....i'd be stuck. But Adler is very good in the first category . Weak in the second. Piston and Rimsky are better there.

I would also recommend Peter's Spectratone chart :http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Products/Spectrotone-Chart-Download__Spec-01-Download.aspx....

well worth the money. Also Mike Vertas Orchestration classes are great value too:http://mikeverta.com

after that it's really score studying......

good luck

ed


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## synergy543 (Oct 19, 2013)

"Thinking for Orchestra" is a great book but not really for beginners. It would be hard for a novice to extract concepts they could easily utilize. Better save it until after you can read orchestral scores better. Besides, this book is out of print and very hard to get (I've seen recent copies selling for several hundreds of dollars).

As for the "putting it all together" problem that Ed mentions, the best books I've run across are two older books that are out of print (though you can occassionally find copies through Amazon or eBay).

Orchestration by Joseph Wagner

Project Lessons in Orchestration by Heacox

These books are related, as Wagner seems to use material and the conceptual outline from Heacox, and Peter Alexander I believe owns the publishing rights to Wagner's book and has written some new books based on this material. The concept which is most interesting is how they take keyboard music and show various solutions to orchestrating it. Not that that's how you always want to write for orchestra, but its a very effective method of learning orchestration and in the process, you deal with many interesting problems that arise and solutions are discussed in detail. Its an excellent exercise but it does take some work and is well worthwhile.


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 19, 2013)

Do consider Professional Orchestration which teaches via a mentoring approach:
http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products/Professional-Orchestration-Vol-1--Basic-Study-PDFMP3-Bundle__ProOrch-BasicStudyPDF.aspx (http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products ... dyPDF.aspx)

Comes with:

1. PDF text (800 pages)
2. PDF workbook
3. audio of the complete works of a majority of the book's examples
4. MP3 timing spreadshseets
5. Spectrotone chart
6. 7 audio lectures of how to self study the material.
7. MIDI mock-up examples per instrument courtesy Jay Bacal/VSL


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 19, 2013)

Also:

http://www.professionalorchestration.co ... estration/


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 19, 2013)

JPQ @ Sat Oct 19 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat 19 Oct said:
> 
> 
> > Not either/or. You need both. According to John's brother, percussionist Don Williams, John was diligently studying orchestration books at age 15 while practicing piano 3 hours a day.
> ...



No I mean you need both books to study and experience with the orchestra.


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## JPQ (Oct 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun 20 Oct said:


> JPQ @ Sat Oct 19 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Sat 19 Oct said:
> ...



Now i try found musicans which can ansver my questons...


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## synergy543 (Oct 19, 2013)

JPQ @ Sat Oct 19 said:


> Now i try found musicans which can ansver my questons...


George Clooney - Brother Where art Thou?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6io3wj3pa_E

or Mel Gibson - Lost in translation.


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## bdr (Oct 19, 2013)

I enjoyed reading George Frederick McKays book 'Creative Orchestration'

http://www.georgefrederickmckaymusic.net/music-books/index.html (http://www.georgefrederickmckaymusic.ne ... index.html)

as it is a lot more about orchestration and less so about instrumentation


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## Jetzer (Oct 20, 2013)

I would like to recommend Professional Orchestration from Peter Alexander. I only have part 1 for now, but I love it. It is very detailed but also easy to read and understand. The score examples (+audio) are great. I never get bored reading/studying this book.


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## mducharme (Oct 20, 2013)

One of the things is that some of the books available on orchestration are not so good for beginners - they are organized more like reference manuals which tell you everything about everything all at once. They are great if you already know something, or you have a teacher to guide you through and tell you what is important etc. The Adler is very much like that.

I recommend the Kennan text that Dave Connor mentioned (The Technique of Orchestration), which is primarily an instrumentation text despite the name. The reason is that presents concepts in a very logical and digestible sequence for someone who is starting out, rather than throwing a million details at you all at once. For instance, Kennan presents a chapter on "The Strings" (an introduction to the individual instruments and how they work) followed by "The String Orchestra" (how a basic Bach passage for string orchestra can look and sound with different instrument groups carrying the melody, and common mistakes and how they affect the sound) followed by "Bowing and Special Effects" (bowing is a detailed topic which deserves its own section, and then he covers articulations in a way that moves slowly from the more commonplace ones (tremolo) to the more rare (artificial harmonics). This breakdown of the topic in which you slowly build up from basic to more advanced and expert facilitates learning of the material.

The Adler is organized in a slightly more bizarre way. It divided into four chapters for strings, however, the 3rd chapter in the Kennan ("Bowing and Special Effects") is done as the first chapter in the Adler, with a tiny bit of string orchestration thrown in as well. This leads to some issues since then you are learning about what divisi means and artificial harmonics and scordatura tuning before you know what a violin can do. I can understand why he did this - he talks about violin harmonics in the violin section, which would have been made more difficult if he had not discussed harmonics already. However, this makes for very confusing organization for the beginner orchestrator, who is suddenly learning about very advanced concepts in chapter 1 (scordatura, harmonics, playing behind the tailpiece) and then moving on to very basic things in chapter 2 (how the violin works) mixed in with very advanced things (violin artificial harmonics).

Adler's third chapter covers plucked string instruments such as Harp, Guitar, Banjo, etc. Kennan covers the Harp together with the Celesta and Piano in a later chapter, and relegates things like the guitar to a chapter on "Infrequently used instruments". The organization in the Kennan helps to discourage beginner students from trying to learn the ins and outs of banjo technique before they have learned how to orchestrate for the basic bowed string instruments, and orchestration for bowed strings is covered in chapter 4.

So overall the issues with the Adler are that he covers harmonics and scordatura tuning entirely too early for the beginner, mixing them in with basic concepts, and throws in every possible string instrument like the banjo in the instruments discussion before moving on to basic string orchestration. In contrast the Kennan teaches only the 4 core instruments (violin, viola, cello, bass) in the first chapter, then the second chapter moves onto how those four are used in the orchestra and very basic orchestration, and the third chapter deals with bowing/articulations/effects on those four. This is a much more sound pedagogical approach for the learning student than the Adler.

All that being said, I prefer the Adler for reference when I have a specific orchestration question about one of the instruments, because all the details are covered at once. The Kennan is not so good as a reference book once you get going because of the same things that make the Kennan great to learn from also make it a mediocre reference (Kennan's violin-specific information on harmonics is under chapter 3 "special effects" rather than with the information on the violin in chapter 2).


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## G-Sun (Oct 20, 2013)

I'd love to see an online book, with reference audio.
So, if writing for flute, I could just check online for instrument-specifics.


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## synergy543 (Oct 20, 2013)

G-Sun @ Sun Oct 20 said:


> I'd love to see an online book, with reference audio.
> So, if writing for flute, I could just check online for instrument-specifics.


There are a few sites kind of like this (and maybe others too?)

http://www.vsl.co.at/en/70/3161/3162/3164/5543.vsl

http://andrewhugill.com/manuals/intro.html

Also possibly of interest:

http://www.orchestralibrary.com/

http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/explore/films/listening_guides (http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/explore/f ... ing_guides)


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## G-Sun (Oct 20, 2013)

synergy543 @ Sun Oct 20 said:


> G-Sun @ Sun Oct 20 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd love to see an online book, with reference audio.
> ...



Thank you very much!
This will be very helpful


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## Samulis (Oct 20, 2013)

Garritan did an interactive version of Rimsky-Korsakov where the samples would play back for you... the current existing one is broken, but I managed to find a version preserved with the Wayback Machine that has the flash examples intact:
http://web.archive.org/web/200710150513 ... y.php?f=77

(if the links on the page don't work and give you 404's, go up to the top area and click other "columns" on the time chart and try to find one near the red-highlighted one that works. Oct 2007 seems to work for me.)


Essentially they took most of the examples from the back of the book and people made mockups. The other nice thing is that they had a group of professors give commentary on everything RK says to give a more modern context. They also add some modern images and cut out anything that is out of date and replace it with more up-to-date info. It's a good read if you have time, although I don't think it's as thorough as Piston or Adler (I haven't had a chance to buy Adler yet, but I have a copy of Piston and it's an amazing resource). RK really goes more into the "how you use it" side and can get really into the meat of it (like what harmonies are common and when to use uncommon harmonies and stuff).

My favorite point from RK, paraphrased by one of the commentators:
"FRESHNESS of color is more important than exotic color. Even an oboe, silent for a few minutes, can be superbly effective, just because it is fresh."

Just to give you an idea of how deep into it he gets.

Good luck!


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## Dave Connor (Oct 20, 2013)

I remember those lessons and always appreciated they were up there.

What's interesting is {say} lesson 5 where the high 1st violin line is doubled an octave below by the 2nds to compensate for certain inadequacies of the higher strings in that register. Good advice in a fundamental way but it rules out a very common and effective device/sound that cannot be reproduced any other way (i.e. high strings alone.)

Not criticizing. Such is the nature of teaching or learning an art.


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## Samulis (Oct 20, 2013)

Dave Connor @ Sun Oct 20 said:


> I remember those lessons and always appreciated they were up there.
> 
> What's interesting is {say} lesson 5 where the high 1st violin line is doubled an octave below by the 2nds to compensate for certain inadequacies of the higher strings in that register. Good advice in a fundamental way but it rules out a very common and effective device/sound that cannot be reproduced any other way (i.e. high strings alone.)
> 
> Not criticizing. Such is the nature of teaching or learning an art.



Yeah, totally. Well that's what happens after over a hundred years of musical evolution. Things that were common then aren't common now, and things that weren't common then are common now. That's why it's hard to point to any single book as the best, because many of them are outdated and others are lacking in areas. Poor RK never did get to cover Taiko drums and Bartok Pizz... but he offers us what he knew from his time, which is definitely something interesting as you said, even if we should take it "cum grano salis". 

The web resources (philharmonia, etc.) and the suggestion of finding a mentor composer/orchestrator who has spent a long time learning about the orchestra are both great ideas. I studied with an older composer last summer and I learned tons of things even RK or Piston didn't cover, and looking online can yield some awesome resources (although it always seems the websites you find were made in 2004 and are half-broken when you start trying to research more obscure instruments).


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## G-Sun (Oct 20, 2013)

Wow, yeah, so much good info here. Thanks!


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## G-Sun (Oct 21, 2013)

Do you know any similar resources for Marching Band and Big Band?
I understand many things are common, but there are some differences, right?


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## JPQ (Oct 21, 2013)

I printed few chapters of RK by Garritan even note examples dont work and dont even show (mean flash based stuff) then but still. and currently looks very likely
I going get Adler,and Keenan ja one mixing theory book all soon i can...


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## JPQ (Oct 21, 2013)

What you think about this:
getting:
Adler
Keenan
and 
Berlioz: Treatise on Instrumentation (Dover Books on Music) 
ps. i dont now want comments about mixing book... and i dont yet know (i still thinking and depends how much i hace money in decemeber) how many books i get these what list. there is alexander publishing book but looks bit too bit collection of books for my taste at lesat this time.


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 21, 2013)

JPQ @ Mon Oct 21 said:


> ... there is alexander publishing book but looks bit too bit collection of books for my taste at lesat this time.



Then just get book 1 which is the equivalent of the other books you listed. Or get the PDF which is cheaper if you just want the book. 

http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products ... 1-PDF.aspx

The other books are reference titles. This is a mentoring title. Watch video FIRST:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ylXzgxO9VQI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... lXzgxO9VQI)


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## JPQ (Oct 22, 2013)

Peter Alexander: this your books tells basic info (playing techniques etc) about instruments ? if possible please tell what your other books cover using text not videos/audio becouse my talked englush understanding is more than bit limited... 
ps. is this book suitable reference like have queston and i want found ansver for it...


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## ed buller (Oct 22, 2013)

JPQ @ Mon Oct 21 said:


> What you think about this:
> getting:
> Adler
> Keenan
> ...



not bad...the berlioz is very old....but Bernard Herrmann loved it sooooooo..

you can also get the rimsky very cheap as a kindle download 

e


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## G-Sun (Oct 22, 2013)

ed buller @ Tue Oct 22 said:


> you can also get the rimsky very cheap as a kindle download
> 
> e


Nice tip. Thanks!


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## JPQ (Oct 22, 2013)

Kindle itself pays much and needs energy to work i think. but does it support pdf files ? (i allready found few nice looking pdf books which are slow read,and some of them are not music books at all)


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 23, 2013)

JPQ @ Tue Oct 22 said:


> Peter Alexander: this your books tells basic info (playing techniques etc) about instruments ? if possible please tell what your other books cover using text not videos/audio becouse my talked englush understanding is more than bit limited...
> ps. is this book suitable reference like have queston and i want found ansver for it...



See contents tab:
http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products ... 2BPDF.aspx


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 23, 2013)

For reference only go to books.google.com and type in:

hector berlioz
cecil forsyth

The berlioz book is the second edition translated into English in the 1858. Forsyth is from 1922.

There's also Ebenezer Prout's book but it's a bit of a difficult read.


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## re-peat (Oct 23, 2013)

JPQ,

Don’t waste your money on orchestration books or courses. Simply collect whatever basic info you need (instrument ranges, and such) from the web, and you’re good to go. Seriously.

I’ll tell you why: orchestration books are the wrong cookbooks for the dishes you’ll be preparing and the ingredients you’ll be working with.
Rimsky, Adler, Berlioz, … none of those people knew about VSL or LASS, you see. Or about convolution reverbs. You won’t find any chapter on blending the BWW Oboe with the Westgate bassoon in any of those books. Nor will they teach you how to integrate the SampleModeling Horn in a Cinesamples Brass section. And Rimsky, if I’m not mistaken, is also very sparse with information on EQ’ing, stereowidth, compression, early reflections and editing Kontakt-patches.

All the traditional orchestration books are based on findings, expertise, laws and rules which were arrived at by working with real instruments, not virtual ones. Very valuable if you want to learn about writing for real instruments and orchestras, yes, but hardly of any use at all if your instrumental and spatial palette is limited to virtual sounds and spaces and “in-the-box”-production techniques. On some days of the week, I would even argue that orchestration books & courses are in fact the worst possible books you could read when studying virtual orchestration. Because their concepts, guidelines, suggestions and advice apply to a completely different sort of sonic world. Apart from a vaguely similar exterior layer of timbre, there is no overlap whatsoever between the worlds of real instruments and that of virtual ones.
If you want to learn about working with Photoshop or CorelPainter, you’re not going to first read about mixing linseed oils with pigments, which brushes are best for which type of painting technique, why there needs to be a layer of green underneath skin colour, or priming your canvas with lead-white either, are you? Same thing.

You don’t need to know how many real violas it takes to create a nice balance with three real horns, because you won’t be working with real violas and real horns. And it is very likely that your sampled instruments will behave totally differently than their real counterparts anyway. The blend of two real flutes with a real horn may produce a most enchanting timbre in the concert hall, yes, but it remains very much to be seen if your sampled flutes and your sampled horn will fuse in a similarly agreeable way inside your DAW.
Doubling the first violins with the second ones an octave higher may make for a very exciting sound in real life, but chances are that when replicating that combination with sampled instruments, you end up with something quite unpleasant sounding. It’ll depend on the library and your skill of working with that library.
Orchestration books also don’t know about the many limitations and flaws in sample libraries. These books assume living instrumental presences of the utmost sonic complexity and richness, effortlessly capable of a world of timbral finesses, which is something that libraries simply can not deliver.

If your virtual harp of choice is Spitfire’s, or if it is Vienna’s, that changes things already, right there. And quite profoundly so. There’s things (articulations, colour blends, dynamics, …) possible with either that isn’t possible with the other. Not to mention the fact that the Spitfire harp pushes different frequencies forward in the mix than the Vienna harp does (which may have implications for the writing and balancing). Lot of things like that. And Keenan won’t tell you what any those things are, I’m afraid. And that’s just the harp.
The LASS pizzicati ― other example ― need a completely different treatment/approach/mix than the HS pizzicati do. Because they’re different things: they sound differently, they behave differently, they manifest themselves differently in a mix. _They are in fact different instruments_. And again: that is a distinction (and an extremely important one it is too) you will search for in vain in any of the classic orchestration books.

All the laws of orchestration change drastically depending on which libraries you work with (and how well you can work with them). If your sound comes mainly from EastWest material, you’ll need to consider entirely different things then when your sound is primarily built on VSL instruments. 

You know what you need to do? Listen. Listen and learn. Not read and learn, but listen and learn. Listen to live orchestras. And even better: listen to recordings of orchestras (because the sound of a recorded orchestra, being a two-dimensional and 'produced' reduction of the complex thing which happens in real life, is much more closely related to the sound you’re attempting to create inside your DAW).

And, just as importantly (if not most importantly of all), listen to your sample libraries.

_


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## ed buller (Oct 23, 2013)

Have to say the above is probably the best advice yet.....with the caveat that not all orchestration literature is limited to discussing the idiosyncrasies of the instruments. If you can find good text on putting it all together it's worth having. 

But as Piet points out you learn far more from just writing music in your DAW with your library. 

e


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## mark812 (Oct 23, 2013)

You're probably looking for this: http://www.amazon.com/The-Guide-MIDI-Orchestration-4e/dp/0240814134 (http://www.amazon.com/The-Guide-MIDI-Or ... 0240814134)


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## jaeroe (Oct 23, 2013)

There is no single one, but you can aid your understanding of orchestration by looking to a few books while you listen to recordings and check out scores. best learning is by writing for and hearing your stuff performed by the real things (even in small numbers), but looking to books for a few things certainly won't' hurt - just don't get bogged down by the minutia.

there are many books that cover 'instrumentation' topics, such as range, etc. but you really want things that are more conceptual and discuss how orchestral music works. Kenan, Adler, et al are more of the former. Kenan is more concise than Adler - and on that topic, i think you want to get in and out quickly - don't get bogged down with the minutia. They are very basic on more conceptual, thinking orchestrally, topic.

for the more conceptual, 'thinking orchestrally' topic - books can be much more helpful. Wagner's "Orchestration", lovelock's "elements of orchestral arrangement", and rodgers' "the art of orchestration" are all quite good. the first 2 use mostly the act of arranging piano music for orchestra to explain what works 'orchestrally', what doesn't and why. much or ravel's orchestral output actually came from his piano music, so... not a bad way to go (especially for midi people). the rodgers is basically the composer's process - sketching a composition, then orchestrating it. it's a fantastic book. also has a lot of great topics like writing for soloist and orchestra.

so, maybe kenan or adler for references on instrumentation things, and then the wagner and rodgers for the act of actually orchestrating.

while i agree with peat that if you're working with samples that is a whole skill set in and of itself (technology), i totally disagree his saying don't bother learning orchestration. i think it is a bad idea to just bury your head in the sand when it comes to learning about what it is that you're trying to sound like in the first place. if you want to write music for orchestral/chamber instruments and you're using samples - of course you should make an effort to learn about that real thing along with the technology you're using as an instrument to make your final product. for several reasons:

a) having a decent concept of writing for orchestra gives you a foundational understanding of how orchestral music works. without this, i think you will likely waste a lot of time and have a poorer understanding of why or why not something is working for you. yes, samples can certainly get in the way, but i've found it is much better to start with how it should be (if you were working with the real thing), then know the limitations of your sample libraries, and then work accordingly. otherwise, it's not being able to find the forrest through the trees.
b) the world is full of people writing sample based 'orchestral' music that sounds very synthetic and extremely generic/watered down. like bad organ music. a decent understanding of orchestration (the conceptual items) helps avoid this fate immensely. through color and function it can keep your music interesting. obviously, not using the technology well can make good stuff on paper sound like crap, but knowing what you would put on paper to have players produce interesting stuff is the best starting point.
c) look at the cinesamples guys. they write very well for the orchestra (live) and do fantastic sample based orchestral work, as well. it is a direct result of know both orchestration and the technology.

nowadays, being a 'composer' more often means being a composer, an orchestrator, arranger, performer, producer, engineer, and general all around tech guy. learn all those skills or get someone to fill in the gaps for you. but, it starts with the music, so have a good understanding of what makes for good music (and orchestration will certainly help when you're trying to write orchestral sounding music).


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm sorry, re-peat, but much of what you wrote is not very good advice.

All of the books listed in this thread: Adler, Berlioz, Forsythe, Kennan, and Piston, follow a patterm established in the 1830s by Jean Georges Kastner who wrote the model called Traite de Instrumentation. This was also the title for the Berlioz book. 

Instrumentation deals specifically with what the French called the mechanics of each instrument, and within the time period in which the book was written, some playing insights young composers should be aware of. These are simply facts, observances of some technical information and the observation of what dynamics in what range an instrument can easily play. The strings are ususually the longest section because of the number of playing techniques available.

For example, in 1863 Gevaert showed the practical range of the flute starting on D4.I n his 1885 revision, it was changed to C4. In 1922 when Rimsky-Korsakov's book came out, it was lowered to B3. 

Consequently, instrumentation has NOTHING to do with laws of orchestration. There is NO SUCH THING. The only thing coming close to a law is knowing the accurate range of an instrument from the bottom to the top and making sure that when writing for live performance, the parts are idiomatic, e.g., playable.

Forsyth, again, who is modeled on Kastner, is the model for Adler, Kennan, and Piston. 

The key figure not listed here (see the link to the article I wrote above) is Francois Auguste Gevaert, is the Father of Modern Coloristic Orchestration instruction. His book was the model for RK, Koechlin, and my own Professional Orchestration series.

These books are reference/mentor books in that the "mechanics" are illustrated in either full page scores to be condensed, or detailed mult-stave condensed scores for students to condense even further. 

THIS APPROACH teaches both instrumetation and orchestration since you're seeing the technique illustrated within a full page score.

What is genuinely unique about this approach is that if the student does the work, the student builds BOTH their musical imagination and a compositional technique list, that with imagination can be applied to samples and synths. 

Trying to get Sample Modeling Brass to blend with CineBrass, is only periphally related to instrumentation in that you must know what the instruments sound like live so that you also know what they don't sound like when hearing their sampled counterparts! This is an act of recording which would never be in an orchestration book. I mean, why would anyone even think that an orchestration book would explain how to get one library that's been recorded in an anechoic chamber to match with one recorded where the RT60 is roughly 0.98!?

For MIDI mock-ups, sure, which is what we started with Visual Orchestration 2 lectures 8-9. 

RE: the example above with 3 violas.

I don't agree at all with this and neither should BWW, LASS, Sample Modeling, and Vienna with their Dimension Series, since now we CAN begin emulating this concept called Dynamic Equivalents with these libs. Even if you only have Vienna SE and you update to the Vienna Instrument PRO with any MIRx, you can begin approximating these instrumental blends.

Instrumentation is about instruments. So pick a book as each gives a different view and picture depending upon the author.

Orchestration is the combination of instrumentation with composition. Here you can look at my book(s) which cover the language of orchestration, or our video courses, all of which can be watched in a single afternoon. After that is up to you.


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## JPQ (Oct 23, 2013)

I know instrumentation and orchestration is same thing (and often used wrong way i mean these terms and based what i understanded) but if Gilreath book tells how mix virtual orchestra even different brands of libs looks correct obok for me. for 1st book which dont really mena its my last music book very likely.


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## JimmyPoppa (Oct 23, 2013)

re-peat @ Wed Oct 23 said:


> JPQ,
> 
> Don’t waste your money on orchestration books or courses. Simply collect whatever basic info you need (instrument ranges, and such) from the web, and you’re good to go. Seriously.
> 
> ...



re-peat,

I have to, respectfully, disagree you. What you're doing is dooming a person to never be able to work with a live orchestra. It may be that the majority of people reading these forums won't have that opportunity. However, your approach means they won't be able to if the chance ever arrives. They would have to hire a 'real' orchestrator.

Your points are well taken that virtual instruments behave differently from live ones in many ways, and that, the harp, or flute, from different libraries are essentially quite different instruments. The knowledge and skills needed to use these well, have to be learned_ in addition to_, not _instead of_ traditional orchestration. The fundamentals of good orchestration, like those of composition and arranging, are universal. They apply to all musical forms and media _including sample based ones_.

*Indeed, in practically every case I can think of, the people who are considered the best at creating high quality sample-based mock-ups are, without exception, well trained in traditional orchestration.* 

As a well studied orchestrator/arranger, you know how to create almost any effect you want, you know hundreds, if not thousands of devices, you know how to study and learn new instruments, playing techniques, extended techniques, etc. And you know how to convey that information to those who actually have to play it. If you're fortunate enough to get experience with live musicians, you learn how things 'really' sound, how musicians react to certain things, how they play under various conditions, and on and on. 

Learning the techniques of sample based orchestration after having a thorough knowledge of traditional orchestration is relatively easy. You already know what's possible and the essentials of how to get what you want. Doing that with samples then becomes simply a different way of applying what you already know. 

Trying to do high - quality, somewhat 'realistic' sounding sample based orchestration and mockups without this fundamental knowledge becomes a matter of luck more than anything else. You hear this over and over. Why can't I get the sound/feel/effect I want? How did s/he create that particular mood/sound/device/effect? What's going on with the instruments in this movie or that game? Why don't my mock-ups sound 'right' no matter how much time I spend on them?

A lot of that frustration is simply because the person never learned how to get there in the first place. It's not about recording techniques or tricks with samples. It's about a real, in-depth understanding of composition, arranging and orchestration. These are separate areas from all the technical magic and require a lifetime of study in themselves. The tech then just becomes a tool for expressing your creativity, knowledge and skill.

Again, I mean no disrespect to you. I understand your point of view. However, IMO, one does oneself a severe disservice by not learning traditional orchestration if the goal is to write and record well. In addition, if the goal, as with many here, is to someday write for Film, Games, etc., where there could be live musicians, then without good orchestral training you will be lost.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## G-Sun (Oct 24, 2013)

Disclaimer: Noob speaking 

Personally, it seems helpful for me to condense this to:

- Arrange for real people, real instruments, real events
Traditional orchestration knowledge and experience required. VI may be a nice tool to get there

- Arrange for VI
Traditional orchestration knowledge and experience is helpful, but in the end, if it sounds good it is good


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 24, 2013)

G-Sun @ Thu Oct 24 said:


> Disclaimer: Noob speaking
> 
> Personally, it seems helpful for me to condense this to:
> 
> ...



Excellent observation. Speaking as a non-noob:

1. Instrumentation + Composition = Orchestration. If you want a "law" without composition there is no orchestration. 

2. The more you know about instrumentation the easier it is to work with orchestral sample libs because within a few minutes you know what you do and don't have in your libraries. It also helps you know, from a buying perspective, what to get next and why. 

3. The language of orchestration is not yet completely replicable with sample libs. That's why you study the combinations and test them to see what works in the context of a midi mock-up. For example, Piet was dead-on with the combination of Violins 1 - Violins 2 in octaves as he would be if had said Violins 1 + Violins 2 in unison. The two biggest combination types in actual orchestral scoring, unisons and octaves, can often be THE most difficult to reproduce with sample libs unless you blend two different libs together - which is now a mixing problem, not an orchestration problem. 

4. Picking up on what you said, this is also true if what you're writing is going to be performed live. Much of what I write is designed to sound good/authentic with samples, and work live on stage with no alterations. But OH is it time consuming!

5. Then, as you noted, there IS the other side of the coin, which is to create with these sounds as colors only and not worry about live performance at all. This is perfectly valid, and lots do it. 

But, if you SAY you want to learn orchestration, then you need to recognize that orchestration is for the orchestra and that the process for writing for live is different than writing for sampled. 

If you write something with samples that you eventually want to be performed live, then you must accept up front that parts of what you created, no matter how much you love it, will have to be rescored to work on the stands.


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## Musicologo (Oct 24, 2013)

http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-MIDI-Orchestration-Contemporary-Composer/dp/0240520211 (http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-MIDI-Orc ... 0240520211)

Best of both worlds in only one place. Might be a good idea to begin with this. My 2 cents.


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## JPQ (Oct 24, 2013)

Musicologo @ Thu 24 Oct said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-MIDI-Orchestration-Contemporary-Composer/dp/0240520211
> 
> Best of both worlds in only one place. Might be a good idea to begin with this. My 2 cents.



I allready ordered Gilleeath book and maybe order someday also this. But very likely this year and next year i dont get more books i need so much other things which are not music related at all and still want upgrade my NI Komplete...


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## re-peat (Oct 25, 2013)

JimmyPoppa @ Thu Oct 24 said:


> (...) What you're doing is dooming a person to never be able to work with a live orchestra.


Jimmy,

I’m not dooming anyone to anything. Nor did I ever say or suggest that you don’t need to know about orchestration and/or instrumentation. You appear to have misread me there, if I may say so. (Honestly, I would have thought that no serious musician would ever need anyone of us telling him or her that a solid grounding in orchestration is of the essence if one wants to write orchestral music of whatever variety.) 
All I’m saying here is that the road to _good-sounding virtual orchestration_ isn’t mapped out in any traditional orchestration book, that’s all.

Some of the reasons why I am rather suspicious of transplanting the methods and techniques of traditional orchestration onto working with virtual instruments (and even more suspicious of people who insist that the practice makes sense), are:
*(1)* Traditional orchestration assumes the presence of an entirely different species of instruments. (Noobs and self-proclaimed non-noobs may believe all they want that virtual is getting close, the truth is that the difference between real and virtual remains as huge and unbridgeable as it ever was.)
*(2)* Likewise, traditional orchestration assumes a wealth of choices and options (with regard to articulations, dynamic differentations, contextual phrasing, organic blending, intra-orchestral resonance, precise numbers of players, unusual timbres, exploiting acoustic energy, … ) which the virtual orchestrator simply does not have.
*(3)* Traditional orchestration isn’t aware of the millions of limitations, as well as the gazillion of possibilities (seemingly ‘unrealistic’ as some of these may be) intrinsic to the virtual idiom.
*(4)* Traditional orchestration needn’t, for obvious reasons, be bothered (and is therefore never concerned with) dozens and dozens of considerations which are essential to the success of a virtual orchestration (decisions pertaining to artificial space, artificial dynamics, frequency clutter, frequency distribution, blends, uneven soundquality of sample libraries, conflicting sonic ‘stamps’ of various libraries, and so on and so on … the list is endless).
*(5)* In virtual orchestration, you are very much the slave of what you are sold by a developer. The developer ― his taste, vision, competence, attention to detail (or sloppyness) and musical insight (or lack of all these things) ― is almost as big a factor in the orchestral sound you end up with as you yourself are. Dozens and dozens of decisions, often very important ones, which are completely yours when writing for real instruments (and so they should be), aren’t yours at all when working with virtual instruments.
*(6)* A big part of the art of virtual instrumentation/orchestration is the art of illusion, deception and make-believe (assuming that a more or less believable orchestral sound is the goal of course). An aspect which is completely alien to traditional orchestration. Every single element, musical or physical, which is self-evident in a real orchestra ― and, as a consequence, obviously remains undiscussed in orchestration books ― requires a whole lot of very specific knowledge, carefully selected tools and often plenty of effort and elaborate trickery to make them a (hopefully) convincing ingredient of the sound and the performance of your virtual orchestra.

Put all the above together and I say again: the full recipe for a good virtual orchestral sound isn’t to be found in any orchestration manual.

Of course, a few syllables of what I have said thusfar go out of the window if one’s mock-ups are aural sketches for works which are to be performed live. I know that. So well in fact, that if the opening question had been specifically concerned with honing one’s orchestration skills in preparation of working with real musicians and or orchestras, I’d never have entered this discussion in the first place.

So yes, you have to know about orchestration. You obviously have to develop some feeling and technical adroitness for translating musical content into sound, and do so in the best possible way (whatever ‘best possible’ may mean in the context of any given piece). And if a lack of knowledge gets in the way of what you’re aiming for, then yes, some form of study is obviously required. No disagreement there. (Again, I find the blatant obviousness of all of this quite embarrassing, I must say.)

But I am and remain very much of the opinion that anyone who seeks (or is somehow lured into believing that there are) solutions in traditional orchestration manuals for problems primarily related to the virtual idiom, is either deluded, duped or both.

_


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## jaeroe (Oct 25, 2013)

re-peat @ Fri Oct 25 said:


> So yes, you have to know about orchestration. You obviously have to develop some feeling and technical adroitness for translating musical content into sound, and do so in the best possible way (whatever ‘best possible’ may mean in the context of any given piece). And if a lack of knowledge gets in the way of what you’re aiming for, then yes, some form of study is obviously required. No disagreement there.
> 
> But I am and remain very much of the opinion that anyone who seeks (or is somehow lured into believing that there are) solutions in traditional orchestration manuals for problems primarily related to the virtual idiom, is either deluded, duped or both.
> 
> _



the OP said about 1/2 way down the 1st page he wants to be able to work with live musicians. he also mentions learning about instrumentation as opposed to orchestration (seems like he means technicalities of the instrument, vs how to put things together for orchestra).

But, still - sounds like a lot of people here are saying, yes, learn about the technology you're working with (samples, plugins, etc), but the starting point conceptually is traditional orchestration. If you know how a real orchestra/instrument works in a given situation, then you know when you're not getting it from your samples, etc and then you can figure out what you can or cannot do to change things to get there. Maybe that means buying a different library to do a specific thing you want. Maybe you edit a patch. Maybe you change your musical or virtual orchestration idea. It's not unlike sketching a piece, scoring it for one group, then adapting if for another. i just find thinking about the samples and technology first is a bit like the hunt a peck method for composing - very slow. 

JPQ - a single book for technical info on instrumentation could be the Kennan (technique of orchestration) or the Adler - they're both fine. Blatter is also fine. Forsyth etc are all a bit dated now, so if you want single one try one of those three.

Seeing limitations of instruments in action, you would do well to look at a piece like Rimsky-Korzekov's Scheherazade - it is pretty good study in what a lot of different instruments can do and how (how fast can a trumpet comfortably play triplets, etc; what happens to the sound of strings when you divide them in different ways). It pretty well sums up his orchestration approach, etc.


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## JimmyPoppa (Oct 25, 2013)

jaeroe @ Fri Oct 25 said:


> re-peat @ Fri Oct 25 said:
> 
> 
> > So yes, you have to know about orchestration. You obviously have to develop some feeling and technical adroitness for translating musical content into sound, and do so in the best possible way (whatever ‘best possible’ may mean in the context of any given piece). And if a lack of knowledge gets in the way of what you’re aiming for, then yes, some form of study is obviously required. No disagreement there.
> ...



The OP wrote:

_"I verylikely have situation my music new played by real musicans maybe expect few for special uses... but i still want wrote music which is possible play. ps. i hope i found here where i live musicans which want ansver things what some sayed here like how long someone can play with tuba high notes in fff... ps. is now hard know is Keenan or Adler my choice but maybe Keenan if you think is easy understand to me even Adler (i looked book form library) dont look hard when we talk such high level things."_

Virtual techniques won't help him with these goals.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## jleckie (Oct 25, 2013)

Re-Peat- you are SPOT on.


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## JPQ (Oct 25, 2013)

I very likely chocie Adler if i get single book becouse: many Finland libraries have it,and many higher end schools here uses it i understanded. IU think here where i live its almost standard. and i allread looked about 6-8years ago in in library it looked quite clear when we know is its not basic music things...


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## re-peat (Oct 25, 2013)

JimmyPoppa @ Sat Oct 26 said:


> The OP wrote ...





jaeroe @ Fri Oct 25 said:


> the OP said ...


Jimmy and Jaeroe,

Ok, if you both insist on bringing this down to the silly level of what the OP actually said and didn’t say (this discussion is quickly loosing a lot of its fascination that way, if I may say so): I very specifically referred to the opening _question_, not the opening _poster_. 
True, a few posts later, it seems that a desire on JPQ’s part, to, one day, work with real musicians, did in fact make its entry into this thread, but as I’ve known JPQ to not always be the most comprehensible of authors ― not an accusation, merely stating a completely innocent but sometimes inconvenient fact ―, please forgive me for having glanced over some of his contributions a bit too casually. In other words: that particular post, buried as it is among list after list of book recommendations, escaped my attention.




jaeroe @ Fri Oct 25 said:


> But, still - sounds like a lot of people here are saying (...)


Actually, Jaeroe, before I mentioned it, no one else did, or even hinted at it. So I don’t know about your “a lot of people are saying …” They certainly weren’t before I dropped by.



jaeroe @ Fri Oct 25 said:


> If you know how a real orchestra/instrument works in a given situation, then you know when you're not getting it from your samples, etc and then you can figure out what you can or cannot do to change things to get there.


You’d think that, wouldn’t you? However, every page of this forum and at least 70% of the posted material will prove that that is, unfortunately, far from the case. I’ll expand on this later, if you like, but I’ve gotta run now.

_


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 26, 2013)

Instrumentation is NOT Orchestration

http://www.professionalorchestration.co ... estration/


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## JimmyPoppa (Oct 26, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Fri Oct 25 said:


> Instrumentation is NOT Orchestration
> 
> http://www.professionalorchestration.co ... estration/



+1. Definitely. Neither is it Arranging (which requires Instrumentation, Composition _*and*_ Orchestration skills in multiple styles, almost always uses, at least some live instruments, and often incorporates singers, either individually, in small groups, or a full choir, yet another area of study.)

I have made my living doing this (Arranging and Orchestration for stage shows, musical theatre and recording artists) for 30+ yrs. The main thing that has changed in that world is that, now, clients expect to be able to hear a reasonable mockup of how their piece will sound. They want to be able to comment and ask for changes before you finalize the piece and copy the parts for the musicians (yet another skill, BTW). It doesn't have to be perfect but it needs to give them a good sense of the piece. They know it will be different with live musicians. 

This wasn't needed even 10 yrs ago. Now, it's a normal expectation. Not only that, since you know you're writing for a live band/orchestra, and you usually know the size, venue, and, often, who the musicians will be (especially on recordings because you often get to hire them), and certainly, the skill level of the players, etc., you have to write for the musicians, not for the samples. You have to give the client what they want/need knowing that, with top level players, you can ask for practically anything and, if they understand what you want, and if it's possible on their instrument, they can usually do it. You then have to somehow (I haven't got it yet) get your samples to do some sort of facsimile of what you will be asking the musicians to play. 

The need for these arranging and orchestration skills has not gone away. Indeed, the need has increased because fewer and fewer people really know how to do them well. I recently read somewhere (wish I could find it), that the one area where musical fees have not gone down in recent years is in orchestration, particularly for media like Film, TV and Games. I don't know for sure whether that's absolutely accurate.

I do know that, as a pro performer (singer/actor/pianist) for 20 yrs, then an arranger/orchestrator for 30 (there was some overlap - I'm 59), I have never had to have a non-music job. This is not because of any awesome talent. It's because I've worked very hard (still do) to be rock solid and dependable at these crafts.

You _*can* _make a real, actual living at this. It takes some luck, and some who-you-know, but, once your opportunities come, it takes real skills. 

I know there are people out there who make their living just the opposite way - using sample based work as their final product. I understand that this is a different skill set and readily admit that I don't have that level of mockup ability. That's not what I use these materials for.

However, my interpretation of what the OP was asking about was that it was intended primarily as a question about orchestration for live musicians. Of course, I could be completely wrong about that.


*JPQ - a previous poster mentioned the free online resources below:*


http://web.archive.org/web/200710150513 ... y.php?f=77

http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/explore/films/listening_guides (http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/explore/f ... ing_guides)

http://www.orchestralibrary.com/ 


I second these. There is a lot of very usable information there if you're beginning and don't have a lot of resources. I think they might be very helpful to you.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## JPQ (Oct 26, 2013)

Using real musicans to me is very unlikely i think is 1:100 or even less. I must say funny fact players which sounds to my taste very nice way are very rare when i talk for example accordion. funny example i know but to me there is not much really good fiinish playes which can play music without lmiting itself one genre only. btw i happy if i can get good results (like many users here) i dont need go much more real good sample based (maybe also wivi etc synths for "real" instruments) is suitable for needs. i trying learn book what i sayed i ordered when it arrives. verylikely i dont have money pay for musicans never. ps. look these free links one has such small text is hard read but i hope i found something useful form it.


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## synergy543 (Oct 26, 2013)

JPQ @ Sat Oct 26 said:


> ps. look these free links one has such small text is hard read but i hope i found something useful form it.


Have a look through archive.org You can download the pdf versions and expand text to any size.

Here for example, you can find Rimsky Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration
https://archive.org/details/principlesoforch00rims


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## JimmyPoppa (Oct 27, 2013)

JPQ @ Sat Oct 26 said:


> Using real musicans to me is very unlikely i think is 1:100 or even less. I must say funny fact players which sounds to my taste very nice way are very rare when i talk for example accordion. funny example i know but to me there is not much really good fiinish playes which can play music without lmiting itself one genre only. btw i happy if i can get good results (like many users here) i dont need go much more real good sample based (maybe also wivi etc synths for "real" instruments) is suitable for needs. i trying learn book what i sayed i ordered when it arrives. verylikely i dont have money pay for musicans never. ps. look these free links one has such small text is hard read but i hope i found something useful form it.



This makes re-peat quite correct that you will likely do better to focus most of your time on understanding how to make your mockups better. This is a very large area of knowledge, skills, training your ears in a certain way, etc. 

I wouldn't go so far as to say you don't need traditional knowledge at all. I believe traditional instrumentation and orchestration is still valuable for creating the most realistic mockups. However, his comments about the various aspects of sample based instruments and how to work with them are likely the most useful for you. 

The Gilreath book you ordered is probably a good start. It has some basics of instrumentation then focuses on sample based usage. I don't know how up to date it is now because I only have the first edition.

Bottom line: Re-peat is right.

Be well,

Jimmy


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## ed buller (Oct 27, 2013)

one of the quickest and easiest ways to learn is to copy something. Find a big brash orchestral cue that has ton's of moods ( action's the best ) and slip it into your DAW as an audio file. Then tackle each 4 bars. Try and copy it exactly so that when you switch between the recording and your midi there is no difference. You'll learn heaps....anf have fun too

e


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## JPQ (Oct 27, 2013)

4th edition is current one in this Gilreath book. i maybe get someday also Adler i think both are fine for my needs. Adler becouse is standard in here where i live i think.
ps. i like big orchestral soundtracks i like smaller british tv series style more... .


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## synergy543 (Oct 27, 2013)

JPQ, given all that's been said (and interpreted), I think your best bet is to simply choose a score from IMSLP that you like and start to mock it up.

You'll have many questions which you can then ask and get answers to as you go through the mockup process. The experience will be far more rewarding than any book - I promise.


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## JPQ (Oct 28, 2013)

What i learn such way ? and my sample libs dont have velocity layers for all tunes i found one what i can imagine. Only pboelm is which i want solve itself without help all of time what heck some words mean they i bet are italy and i talk Vivaldi Spring for example (four seasons are one my all time favorites)...


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## JPQ (Oct 28, 2013)

this link dont cover these what i mean:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_It ... in_English


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## JPQ (Oct 29, 2013)

Its seems it other text which is not playing instructions...


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## korgscrew (Oct 29, 2013)

Having looked into this myself, i have to say...

Get some scores and study them. Follow the score whilst you listen, try to mock it up.

I have learnt so much by studying a couple of scores and mocking them up. It really does show the spotlight on how that sound is created.

One in particular was a Mr Scissorhands que. I love Danny elfman and am gutted i couldn't get hold of the engraved copy that was released earlier this year, with every que from the film, scored in minute detail. I will get my hands on it some day. I do have a copy of the original handwritten one, but it is pretty much un-readable.

Anway, I found an edward que arranged by some guy and its pretty close. All orchestration on there with a few errors.

I was surprised after mocking it up how little instrumentation there was in the que, but it sounded amazing. Something I thought I would never learn. I noticed it was all in the minor detail. I was forever doubling up strings etc, but it always sounded 2D. 

So, get some scores and follow them with the audio. The planets is a great example and can me picked up for peanuts, especially on eBay. The whole score for around $20. Also, The planets gives you it all. Epic, lyrical, melodic & minimal, all in one score!

If anything, it showed I lacked in composition, rather than orchestration.


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