# Cinematic Studio Woodwinds - SPINOFF AFTER RELEASE



## Alex W

Hi everyone, you heard it here first. 

CSW is here. No, really, it is! We’re sending out coupons to all of our customers, so please check your spam folder if it’s not in your inbox within the next couple of hours. If it’s not in either of those places, please contact us via the support button on our website.

I want to say a big thanks to the community, it really is heartening to see such a positive bunch of folks hanging out here. There have been many great memes that have made us laugh out loud, here are a few that come to mind:













And of course an honourable mention has to go to Vladimir, who caused my heart to skip a beat when he posted his alarmingly accurate rendering of the CSW GUI - you even got the font right! I honestly almost fell off my chair, so er… thanks for that. 


Thanks to everyone for your support, if you decide to get the library I hope you enjoy it! Looking forward to the percussion memes…

-Alex


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## SimonCharlesHanna

HO MY GOD


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## ChrisSiuMusic

WHAT NO WAY


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## BezO

Nice! I'm that much more dissapointed I didn't grab the strings & brass during BF.

Bundle sale please.


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## Alex W

hmm, it didn't attach Vladimir's GUI pic, I'll try again here:


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## Kony

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> HO MY GOD


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## muziksculp

I must be seeing things 

Am I dreaming ? or is this for real ?


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## Robert_G

Anyone get the email yet?


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## jonathanparham

Tinesaeriel said:


> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA




dang it. you beat me. I just saw it


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## Beans

I've listened to the MP3 demos, but I just might buy this before watching the walkthrough.


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## muziksculp




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## Robert_G

Just got the emai


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## rottoy

I literally got chills as I checked my email for something else and saw the loyalty discount out of nowhere. 
IT'S HERE AAAAAHHHH


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## Duncan Krummel

I am SO excited! Have a couple of demos ready to go here once it's downloaded. Will upload as soon as I can (though let's be honest, we know this is going to be top notch).

Edit: And a new runs mode for strings in an update soon?


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## RMH

Alex W said:


> Hi everyone, you heard it here first.
> 
> CSW is here. No, really, it is! We’re sending out coupons to all of our customers, so please check your spam folder if it’s not in your inbox within the next couple of hours. If it’s not in either of those places, please contact us via the support button on our website.
> 
> I want to say a big thanks to the community, it really is heartening to see such a positive bunch of folks hanging out here. There have been many great memes that have made us laugh out loud, here are a few that come to mind:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And of course an honourable mention has to go to Vladimir, who caused my heart to skip a beat when he posted his alarmingly accurate rendering of the CSW GUI - you even got the font right! I honestly almost fell off my chair, so er… thanks for that.
> 
> 
> Thanks to everyone for your support, if you decide to get the library I hope you enjoy it! Looking forward to the percussion memes…
> 
> -Alex


Oh!! I love you!!


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## ZeeCount

New runs patches for CSS!


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## muziksculp

THANK YOU ALEX W. & JOHN, and CONGRATULATIONS on CSW , Well Done 

Purchased !


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## zvenx

And just like that.. 

rsp


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## axb312

Sounds awesome!


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## Beans

Installer gets stuck for me on this screen, with nothing able to load.


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## SimonCharlesHanna

Beans said:


> Installer gets stuck for me on this screen, with nothing able to load.


Yes this is happening to me too :(


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## NathanTiemeyer

WOOHOO!!!


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## pawelmorytko

Alex just single handedly saved 2021 with this release!

Also can i just say that those marcato runs patches for woodwinds and upcoming css update sound fantastic!


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## rottoy

*Hmmmmm*


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## muziksculp

When is the CSS Update going to be released ?


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## Grilled Cheese

First listen...sounds like a superb standard has been achieved once again. Is anyone surprised?


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## VivianaSings

Robert_G said:


> Anyone get the email yet?


I did


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## ethormusic

I'm happy this came out but I haven't received any email with a discount code yet...


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## Kony




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## purple

And a nice mic position between "close" and "OH". I was just thinking I'd be happy to see that.


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## Kony

Give it a couple of hours until the email coupon arrives.


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## toddkreuz

Kony said:


> Give it a couple of hours until the email coupon arrives.


already got it


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## purple

And on perhaps a darker note... My condolences to all the session woodwind players out there.....


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## Kony

toddkreuz said:


> already got it


I meant for the people posting they haven't received it yet - I haven't btw


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## Kevperry777

Welp....this sounds stellar. And a CSS runs sneak peek in the video....wow.


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## Tinesaeriel

So I just looked

105 GB size for this library

PHEW

Then again, Alex always said this was gonna be the biggest library released, and he wasn't kidding! 

Looks like I'm gonna need to do some spring cleaning on my Mac's harddrive before I install this puppy!


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## MA-Simon

It's out! IT'S OUT!! IT'S REALLY FUCKING OUT!!!!!


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## purple

Alright, don't everyone download at once...


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## rottoy

Oh my god, they finally sampled a cor anglais that doesn't sound like an afterthought.  ❤️💕


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## stodesign12

God I really love the demos


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## tebling

purple said:


> Alright, don't everyone download at once...


Some of us can't :-(


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## purple

tebling said:


> Some of us can't :-(


Yep. Just came back to post this... I'll try the manual links for now I guess.


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## purple

Don't know that I've ever spend $300 that fast in my life.


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## toddkreuz

Kony said:


> I meant for the people posting they haven't received it yet - I haven't btw


yeah, i'm just waaay to excited to make any sense right now. LOL


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## VivianaSings

Tinesaeriel said:


> So I just looked
> 
> 105 GB size for this library


Damn, I didn't see that coming...I have to go make some room lol


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## Beans

VivianaSings said:


> Damn, I didn't see that coming...I have to go make some room lol


I did that a few hours ago, just in case it was coming. Good fortune!


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## Kevperry777

stodesign12 said:


> God I really love the demos


Yeah its not fair....Alex is one talented dude.


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## Peter Satera

This just blew my wang right off listening to those runs. I'm giggling away! Love it!


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## muziksculp

Tinesaeriel said:


> So I just looked
> 
> 105 GB size for this library


I was looking for this info. Where did you see it ?


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## boxheadboy50

OHMYGODIMSOEXCITED


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## Tinesaeriel

muziksculp said:


> I was looking for this info. Where did you see it ?


On this tab of the FAQ at the bottom of the page:


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## purple

If you aren't getting the code, check your spam folder and also if you use gmail you might have a "promotions" tab in your inbox (which is where it went for me)


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## Kony

The runs sound amazing!


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## muziksculp

Tinesaeriel said:


> On this tab of the FAQ at the bottom of the page:


Thanks. I looked at the same info. but missed the 105 GB part, maybe it should be printed in bold letters for some of us who can't see that great.


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## donnyluvd2bowl

hmm... idk... slightly underwhelmed by the runs but they sound nice overall especially for the price. kinda think infinite winds sounds better atm in that price range. 

but the strings runs sound a step up for sure


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## NoamL

Kony said:


>


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## Gerbil

Hold on, where's the Bartok Pizz? 

Congrats. Those playable runs are worth the price alone.


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## purple

Never heard runs I was satisfied with until this. Anyways. I'm almost done downloading. Assuming it opens up successfully, I am going to post a short mockup of a tune you've all heard I'm sure. Setting up the string accompaniment while the download continues.


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## MA-Simon

String Runs update when? Those sound faaaaaantastic!


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## NoamL

Memes aside, the walkthrough of the solos sounded stunning.

The "spiccato overlay" feature sounds like it works the best in CSW out of all their libraries so far. It was practically invisible on all these instruments except the bass clarinet and a few notes on the other instruments. Very different from the brass where unfortunately it doesn't work that well - I usually turn off that feature - and on the strings it's okay.

The ability to have so much nuance and phrasing inside of one patch without even articulation switching is kind of... a big big step forward for woodwinds even compared to the top tier libraries available today. I felt more "note to note phrasing" in these simple walkthroughs than anything I've ever heard with some very expensive competitors.

The legatos and retongues... very, very good as expected. Same with the dynamic range.

I wasn't blown away by the mix mic, I'd like to remix these to put them back a bit further. Maybe that is an aural illusion due to being used to hearing the strings in front of the wind section.

It will be interesting to see how well these take to a bit of reverb and an attempt to put them in a different space from Trackdown.

These woodwinds have a lot of attitude, personality, and soloistic verve. It's almost like a challenge. "Think you can write for winds? Okay, here are some players."


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## dbudimir

Sounds wonderful!!!! Insta buy!! Also thanks for the sneak peek at the string update!


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## coprhead6

I’m so happy with Berlin Woodwinds and the soloist EXP’s!

CSW is sounding like Berlin Woodwinds lite, and that is a great thing!

I’m just not totally blown away by the legatos compared to what I have. Woodwinds have such a pure timbre and that chorusing / cross fading is a bitch to get rid of.

However this is still a totally stunning library -especially at the price


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## Sunny Schramm

is the personal upgrade code time limited?


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## toddkreuz

downloading the manual links. Do i unzip all files together?


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## Kony

You should have a link to their download manager in the purchase email - it's fairly easy to use, download, unzip and double click the exe


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## muziksculp

Sunny Schramm said:


> is the personal upgrade code time limited?


No, I don't think so, otherwise it would have been mentioned.


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## Robert_G

The downloads started out fast, but I'm getting long pauses now....almost finished downloading...


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## Kony

The only time limit is the download link provided at time of purchase = 7 days


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## muziksculp

I'm going to wait until tomorrow to download CSW. I think I can wait another day, given I waited more than two years for CSW to be released. I'm sure the Servers are super busy now.


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## Kony

muziksculp said:


> I'm going to wait until tomorrow to download CSW. I think I can wait another day, given I waited more than two years for CSW to be released. I'm sure the Servers are super busy now.


I'm currently rocking 45 Mbps download speed


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## Gingerbread

As excited as I am, I'm gonna let a few guinea pigs go first and report back their impressions. The discount is always there, and I have no rush. But the demo video's sounding good so far!

I'm also curious about the balancing. In the video, the winds sound a bit upfront with the strings, and like @NoamL I am interested to see how well they can be pushed back a bit.


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## NoamL

Gingerbread said:


> As excited as I am, I'm gonna let a few guinea pigs go first and report back their impressions. The discount is always there, and I have no rush. But the demo video's sounding good so far!
> 
> I'm also curious about the balancing. In the video, the winds sound a bit upfront with the strings, and like @NoamL I am interested to see how well they can be pushed back a bit.


Someone else will have to be the first guinea pig! I'm getting 12MB/s.


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## Sunny Schramm

Kony said:


> I'm currently rocking 45 Mbps download speed


Only 1-2 MB/s here :-(


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## ZeeCount

My download is done, just waiting to finish extracting them.


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## purple

Gingerbread said:


> As excited as I am, I'm gonna let a few guinea pigs go first and report back their impressions. The discount is always there, and I have no rush. But the demo video's sounding good so far!
> 
> I'm also curious about the balancing. In the video, the winds sound a bit upfront with the strings, and like @NoamL I am interested to see how well they can be pushed back a bit.


They'll run out of copies!


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## purple

Starting to feel like thanos... I hope the percussion is yellow. That's what my eye needs for this to feel complete.


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## Sunny Schramm

Ah, I used downloadmanager for the CSB and got only the 1-2MB/s. 

Now I start the CSW download parallel and manually and it runs full bandwith


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## Robert_G

NoamL said:


> Someone else will have to be the first guinea pig! I'm getting 12MB/s.


I was happy to be a guinea pig. Just like the kings at the beginning of the Lord of the Rings movie, I got the email and bought without question. I could be downloading trojan horses for all I know. I just opened the wallet and started downloading.


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## Gingerbread

purple said:


> Starting to feel like thanos... I hope the percussion is yellow. That's what my eye needs for this to feel complete.


You win the Bingo!


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## Kony

Sunny Schramm said:


> Ah, I used downloadmanager for the CSB and got only the 1-2MB/s.
> 
> Now I start the CSW download parallel and manually and it runs full bandwith


I'm using the CS downloader and now up to 48 Mbps. I used the updated downloader which came with the purchase email.


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## ChickenAndARoll

Commenting to be used as a primary source document for a monumental day in the sampling world!


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## ridgero

Hey Alex, congratulations! Another milestone, another no brainer! :D Thank you and your entire team for this awesome product!

Listening to the first note you can hear how much attention to detail you have put in it. The fast runs are absolutely incredible.

In your example there are 3 clarinets that play „multi part legato”, what happens if they play one or more notes in unison? I just wonder if there can occur phasing problems.


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## Robert_G

purple said:


> Starting to feel like thanos... I hope the percussion is yellow. That's what my eye needs for this to feel complete.


Any chance you could give a snapshot of your samples folder for CSW? I did manual download and it extracted quite different than CSS and CSB


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## purple

First impressions: incredibly playable. The tone of the solo flute is one of the best I've heard and yet is has consistency even beyond CSB and CSS to my ears. Legato is great, no bumps, and the dynamic crossfades are pretty clean too. It feels very natural to phrase with this lib and is very "playable" if you want it to be. (I am using a breath controller, but if you are good with a modwheel it should be the same for you.)

So far no bugs. Runs just like CSS and CSB and CSSS. I will find out as I open more instruments though...


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## purple

Robert_G said:


> Any chance you could give a snapshot of your samples folder for CSW? I did manual download and it extracted quite different than CSS and CSB


I just selected all the zip files and hit "extract here"


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## muziksculp

OK.. So, let's hear some Woodwinds


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## rottoy

Is 105GB the size of the whole library unzipped?


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## purple

rottoy said:


> Is 105GB the size of the whole library unzipped?


Windows explorer says 98.5 GB. I hope I'm not missing any files.


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## Noc

I know Alex _says_ it’s out now, and the website page is online, and people are buying and downloading and using it, but I for one won’t truly believe it’s actually out until I see the VI-C CSW “Coming Soon” ads replaced with “Out Now” ads.


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## BassClef

Done... took about 50 minutes. Now.... how late will I stay up playing with this?


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## rottoy

Man, I really wish I could trim off some of the mic positions to get the size down.


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## Kony

markleake said:


> Hey @Kony
> 
> To help those of us who just want to know when CSW is released, I have a request... could you remove the question mark from the thread title once it is released?


Done


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## turnerofwheels

Looks like it's need a new SSD o'clock again...


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## constaneum

Alex W said:


> Hi everyone, you heard it here first.
> 
> CSW is here. No, really, it is! We’re sending out coupons to all of our customers, so please check your spam folder if it’s not in your inbox within the next couple of hours. If it’s not in either of those places, please contact us via the support button on our website.
> 
> I want to say a big thanks to the community, it really is heartening to see such a positive bunch of folks hanging out here. There have been many great memes that have made us laugh out loud, here are a few that come to mind:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And of course an honourable mention has to go to Vladimir, who caused my heart to skip a beat when he posted his alarmingly accurate rendering of the CSW GUI - you even got the font right! I honestly almost fell off my chair, so er… thanks for that.
> 
> 
> Thanks to everyone for your support, if you decide to get the library I hope you enjoy it! Looking forward to the percussion memes…
> 
> -Alex


I'm sold !!!!!!


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## Robert_G

purple said:


> I just selected all the zip files and hit "extract here"


Ask for one more small one. Click that 'samples' folder and let me see the layout. Thanks.


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## cqd

OMG!!!


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## constaneum

So CSW has additional mic. Why is that so ? Hmm..curious.


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## axb312

coprhead6 said:


> I’m so happy with Berlin Woodwinds and the soloist EXP’s!
> 
> CSW is sounding like Berlin Woodwinds lite, and that is a great thing!
> 
> I’m just not totally blown away by the legatos compared to what I have. Woodwinds have such a pure timbre and that chorusing / cross fading is a bitch to get rid of.
> 
> However this is still a totally stunning library -especially at the price


I take a bit of offense to this. BWW are good in their own right. From what I've heard (and seen - in terms of usability) so far, I like CSW more.


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## VivianaSings

constaneum said:


> So CSW has additional mic. Why is that so ? Hmm..curious.


It's explained in the youtube video. It's an addition overhead mic that's normally used on woodwinds to help bring the volume up to that of strings.


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## cqd

I've nothing to look forward to now..


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## purple

VivianaSings said:


> It's explained in the youtube video. It's an addition overhead mic that's normally used on woodwinds to help bring the volume up to that of strings.


Yes it's like something between the "main" and "close" mics as a sort of "section" mic. Wish we had something like this for brass honestly.


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## Dhruv

Tinesaeriel said:


> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA



Finally!


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## Kirk1701




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## BassClef

Help... downloaded but Native Instruments is giving me the dreaded "The library path is invalid" message. Now what?


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## Kony

BassClef said:


> Help... downloaded but Native Instruments is giving me the dreaded "The library path is invalid" message. Now what?


This should fix it.









Native Access Error Message: "Library path is not valid. Please browse again."


Symptom When you attempt to add a KONTAKT Library in Native Access, you receive the error: Library path is not valid. Please browse again. The above example shows the error occurring when attempti...




support.native-instruments.com


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## jaketanner

Has anyone combined any loyalty coupons along with the discount?


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## constaneum

VivianaSings said:


> It's explained in the youtube video. It's an addition overhead mic that's normally used on woodwinds to help bring the volume up to that of strings.


I see.


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## yiph2

jaketanner said:


> Has anyone combined any loyalty coupons along with the discount?


What discount? The discount IS is the loyalty discount


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## BassClef

Kony said:


> This should fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Native Access Error Message: "Library path is not valid. Please browse again."
> 
> 
> Symptom When you attempt to add a KONTAKT Library in Native Access, you receive the error: Library path is not valid. Please browse again. The above example shows the error occurring when attempti...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> support.native-instruments.com


Thanks for trying to help. Perhaps something is wrong with my download because (unlike all of my other CS libraries) there is no nicnt file. In fact the lonely thing downloaded was the "samples" folder. (101.56 GB)


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## toddkreuz

BassClef said:


> Thanks for trying to help. Perhaps something is wrong with my download because (unlike all of my other CS libraries) there is no nicnt file. In fact the lonely thing downloaded was the "samples" folder. (101.56 GB)


That sucks. Sorry for you trouble, i hope you get it sorted asap. 
I am hoping my download goes well. Downloading now. Ive seen
people are having issues with the DL manager hanging.


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## Kony

BassClef said:


> Thanks for trying to help. Perhaps something is wrong with my download because (unlike all of my other CS libraries) there is no nicnt file. In fact the lonely thing downloaded was the "samples" folder. (101.56 GB)


You might be missing some files - website says it should be 105Gb.


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## BassClef

Kony said:


> You might be missing some files - website says it should be 105Gb.


Thanks... I guess I'll delete the files and download it again.


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## mcalis

BassClef said:


> Thanks for trying to help. Perhaps something is wrong with my download because (unlike all of my other CS libraries) there is no nicnt file. In fact the lonely thing downloaded was the "samples" folder. (101.56 GB)


You should also have gotten an email with seperate download links for each part. I'd bet that the .nicnt and instrument files are in the first few parts, so downloading those might help?

For the HDD/storage space concerned: I've noticed that there are files for the mix mic and for separate mics, so presumably it would be possible to get rid of the separate mic .nkc and .nkx files to free up some space and just use the mix.


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## NoamL

purple said:


> Windows explorer says 98.5 GB. I hope I'm not missing any files.


You might be? I'm on Mac, my external drive says 105.78 GB.


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## drews

So uh, I don’t have any products so I don’t get a loyalty coupon so is it worth it at $399? All hype aside.


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## emasters

Purchased - quick download speed (downloaded 15-20 files concurrently). Used the manual download links without issue and batch resave worked as expected. Thanks to CS for the loyalty discount. Off to play a bit....


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## Fleer

Does anyone know about educational rebates? I found the relevant web page but not the actual pricing structure.


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## mcalis

drews said:


> So uh, I don’t have any products so I don’t get a loyalty coupon so is it worth it at $399? All hype aside.


You're not going to get a good answer to that on a 125-page+ thread of CS series customers who've been waiting for this thing for years. The best thing for you to do is probably to wait for reviews. I'm sure the likes of Cory Pelizzari will have theirs out soon, and hey, now that it's here, this library ain't going anywhere.


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## Duncan Krummel

Here are a few quick demos:











CSW Demo Audio


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





Edit: Soundcloud is blanking for me here, so here's a LINK

Edit 2: Some SoundCloud files were deleted, so added a Dropbox link with all of them.


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## drews

mcalis said:


> You're not going to get a good answer to that on a 125-page+ thread of CS series customers who've been waiting for this thing for years. The best thing for you to do is probably to wait for reviews. I'm sure the likes of Cory Pelizzari will have theirs out soon, and hey, now that it's here, this library ain't going anywhere.


It was more of a joke lol. I’ve actually been holding off on getting a woodwind library for a year or so now because I heard about this. Almost caved and got the Vienna one but glad I waited now


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## NoamL

I believe you get the 30% "loyalty" discount moving forwards regardless of which library you buy first. At least when I bought CSW there was an offer to buy CSB for $280. Alex is _extremely _fair in his marketing  I even got the loyalty discount applied to CS2 after buying CSS. (and CS2 is still well worth buying by the way).


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## Duncan Krummel

I'll have a larger contextual demo with CSS and CSB (and Hollywood Perc) sometime later this week (tomorrow if I can get to it!).


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## Scott S

Fleer said:


> Does anyone know about educational rebates? I found the relevant web page but not the actual pricing structure.


The education price is the same same as the loyalty discount, so it would be $279 for your first library from them.


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## chiefgeef

YAY! CSWW!!! i guess they came upon a windy forest filled with plenty wood, pine or cedar im sure of it.


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## markleake

Kony said:


> Done


Thanks!


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## Zhao Shen

I am absolutely floored by this library. Congrats to Alex and the team for a job well done! Your bar for quality is second to none. I can recall several times that I've tried getting a library to work in a track and ended up thinking to myself "I wish Alex could sample a ___ so I wouldn't have to be so limited in what I can write". Thanks for enabling all of our creativity.


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## tcb

GOGOGOGO


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## coprhead6

axb312 said:


> I take a bit of offense to this. BWW are good in their own right. From what I've heard (and seen - in terms of usability) so far, I like CSW more.


I don’t know why you’re offended by my opinion, but it sounds like you should buy CSW


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## tcb

CS site crashed.
So much people


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## constaneum

Duncan Krummel said:


> Here are a few quick demos:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Soundcloud is blanking for me here, so here's a LINK




curious what mic mix you use for CSSS and CSS. Do you EQ the strings?


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## Duncan Krummel

constaneum said:


> curious what mic mix you use for CSSS and CSS. Do you EQ the strings?


To keep things simple, it’s all the default mix mix. There is a small amount of EW Spaces (single instance over everything), and as little Ozone Maximizer as needed to bring things to a consistent level.

That said, I often raise the level of the close mics only to increase the edge in the sound. Especially with the strings, this adds some needed focus. Command clicking on Mac brings a mic level to 0db, so often I’ll default to that if I’m not using the Mix mic. And just for the record, my go to for brass is -3db (they default to -6db I believe).


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## Duncan Krummel

mcalis said:


> For what it's worth, here's a mic comparison for the clarinet - please forgive the abysmal, sleepy playing it's quite late over here (I will probably be deeply embarrassed by this tomorrow and replace it, but for now it will have to do):
> 
> 
> 
> For this particular sequence I couldn't get the retongued legato to play nice in all of the three minutes of effort I put into it. The attacks on the retongued legato were too harsh to fit this passage. I'm sure it could be better if I spent more time with it though.
> 
> There is some noticeable stereo ping-ponging going on, most notably on the main mics so I think I will be narrowing the stereo field quite a bit.



I think CSW implements a crossfading vibrato like CSS (someone can correct me if wrong). I found having it off removed much of the transition, and that moving through the gradient while transitioning sometimes introduced artifacts. You might try keeping CC2 maxed to see if the rearticulation improves.


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## Rex282

Me thinks this needs a new thread


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## Alex W

tcb said:


> CS site crashed.
> So much people


Hi folks, sorry that you're having trouble getting through to the website. We're trying to rectify this, it's basically because of the high volume of traffic, but we'll see what we can do. In the meantime I'd recommend waiting for an hour or so while we try to sort it out.

Thanks!


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## leon chevalier

Thanks Alex


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Will be interesting to hear comparisons with other libraries over the coming days. I've been playing with the legato MIDI in Berlin Woodwinds Legacy, Infinite Woodwinds, and CineWinds. CSW sounds very well edited and consistently programmed so far. Tonally, hard to say it is better or worse than current options though. It's certainly as good on first listen.


----------



## Simon Lee

I can’t get on the site, hopefully it’s not down.


----------



## Simon Lee

Alex W said:


> Hi folks, sorry that you're having trouble getting through to the website. We're trying to rectify this, it's basically because of the high volume of traffic, but we'll see what we can do. In the meantime I'd recommend waiting for an hour or so while we try to sort it out.
> 
> Thanks!


Sorry just saw this


----------



## NoamL

see you at midnight... gonna try a quick 40min mockup...


----------



## Trash Panda

Who will be the first to post a Star Wars mock-up with all CS libraries?


----------



## constaneum

Alex W said:


> Hi folks, sorry that you're having trouble getting through to the website. We're trying to rectify this, it's basically because of the high volume of traffic, but we'll see what we can do. In the meantime I'd recommend waiting for an hour or so while we try to sort it out.
> 
> Thanks!


that's not a problem ! it's a sign of good business !!! luckily i'm downloading the library now.


----------



## purple

Here's a short excerpt from the Jawa Sandcrawler music from Star Wars. I'm in the midst of reworking my template so I haven't gotten as deep with my mixing yet but I think the WW's here sound pretty good. That english horn solo is quite treacherous for VIs and I'm pleasantly surprised at how smooth the fast legato came out. I plan to do the whole cue with brass, strings, and percussion and I thought I'd have more time but I'm having to work faster now! I leave you with this as I take a break (and maybe stop for the night)

I will hopefully include this cue and other short excerpts in a demo video on youtube. The excerpts will be selected from film music and classical music so the instruments can't hide behind their strengths and are really tested on music that already exists. Let me know if that sounds useful to you.

There is an EQ on everything that adds some highs and scoops some low mids which is my standard CSB EQ. I want to apply EQs more surgically later on and on an instrument-by-instrument basis but for now I have just tried to de-mud it.


----------



## purple

Trash Panda said:


> Who will be the first to post a Star Wars mock-up with all CS libraries?


I guess I'm that guy. But the Marimba is not an early copy of CSP, I know people will ask!


----------



## toddkreuz

i bought Spitfire Studio woodwinds last nite. I've never face palmed
my self this hard in my life.


----------



## lettucehat

purple said:


> Here's a short excerpt from the Jawa Sandcrawler music from Star Wars. I'm in the midst of reworking my template so I haven't gotten as deep with my mixing yet but I think the WW's here sound pretty good. That english horn solo is quite treacherous for VIs and I'm pleasantly surprised at how smooth the fast legato came out. I plan to do the whole cue with brass, strings, and percussion and I thought I'd have more time but I'm having to work faster now! I leave you with this as I take a break (and maybe stop for the night)
> 
> I will hopefully include this cue and other short excerpts in a demo video on youtube. The excerpts will be selected from film music and classical music so the instruments can't hide behind their strengths and are really tested on music that already exists. Let me know if that sounds useful to you.
> 
> There is an EQ on everything that adds some highs and scoops some low mids which is my standard CSB EQ. I want to apply EQs more surgically later on and on an instrument-by-instrument basis but for now I have just tried to de-mud it.


Wow, came out way better than I was expecting, and I already have a very high opinion of how CSW sounds. Have you tried this with other libraries?


----------



## purple

lettucehat said:


> Wow, came out way better than I was expecting, and I already have a very high opinion of how CSW sounds. Have you tried this with other libraries?


The only other woodwind libs I have are BWW EXP B and composer cloud. I don't thing HWW can do it but I will give BWW EXP B a shot at the solo.


----------



## NoamL

I forgot about batch resave


----------



## axb312

Is there legato delay? How many ms?


----------



## cqd

Man, just listening to the YouTube introduction video there..it sounds unreal altogether..i set it off downloading before leaving for work..can not wait to get home..


----------



## jononotbono

It’s finally out?

so... I wonder who is going to be the first to make a rushed heartless patch walkthrough YouTube video? 😂


----------



## NoamL

jononotbono said:


> It’s finally out?
> 
> so... I wonder who is going to be the first to make a rushed heartless patch walkthrough YouTube video? 😂


"CSW compared to 16 Flagship Woodwind Libraries"


----------



## toddkreuz

A couple of patches loaded fine, then tried to batch resave. Now i'm getting missing
files. Is anybody else missing "separate mics_24nkx and separate mic_24nkc ? I guess i
must have missed a zip file somehow. I used the manual links with no download manager.
Crap!! Have to start again. :(


----------



## Saxer

NoamL said:


> "CSW compared to 16 Flagship Woodwind Libraries"


Playing block chords and Leias theme.


----------



## Kony

jononotbono said:


> It’s finally out?
> 
> so... I wonder who is going to be the first to make a rushed heartless patch walkthrough YouTube video? 😂


Only if they have a green screen


----------



## NoamL

@Alex W thank you for making this library.


----------



## jononotbono

Kony said:


> Only if they have a green screen


I’m sure a lot of heart actually goes into a video like that!


----------



## Manaberry

jononotbono said:


> It’s finally out?
> 
> so... I wonder who is going to be the first to make a rushed heartless patch walkthrough YouTube video? 😂


You just have to get an existing project with CSS and to replace the patches :D 

Still not resolving the heartless part sadly haha.


----------



## erikradbo

The demo sounds fantastic! Was there any mention of the possible change in the legato function that would carry over to css?


----------



## Drundfunk

Man, Alex really knows how to kill all the fun..... . Which thread do I read now for my daily dose of memes?

John when he doesn't receive emails about the release date of CSW anymore


----------



## jononotbono

Manaberry said:


> You just have to get an existing project with CSS and to replace the patches :D
> 
> Still not resolving the heartless part sadly haha.


😂 Cleanswap no midi tweaking!

Anyway. Who has bought this then? Talk about excitement in the VI world!


----------



## tmhuud

Drundfunk said:


> Man, Alex really knows how to kill all the fun..... . Which thread do I read now for my daily dose of memes?


this i guess...






Cinematic Studio Percussion?


Just wondering if anyone has a clue when this might be released? There is no info on the Cinematic Studio website and no announcement has been made yet.




vi-control.net


----------



## purple

Saxer said:


> Playing block chords and Leias theme.


cc1 at 127 the entire time of course


----------



## NoamL

I'm still learning the library but here is the MIDI if anyone wants to check it out. Notice no keyswitching. You can _play in_ a John Williams woodwind part with this library, more or less.

It really feels like everything in the Cinematic Studio Series came together for this library. Consistent sampling. Consistent programming. Two kinds of legato, "lyrical" with lots of transition speed options and beautiful retonguing/rebowing; "marcato" with an active, energetic feeling and the ability to accent notes fairly well within a phrase. Easy to learn keyswitching (although why is the legato G# on this library?? Because of the bassoon range?) and making the instruments interchangeable against the same MIDI input.

All of this ends up helping create an excellent woodwinds library. Let's face it, one of the reasons we don't write for woodwinds very often in the sample world is because "woodwind writing" means programming 5 or 6 parts when we could just slap on one line of some a4 horns and call it a day. This library really takes away that excuse more than anything I've played with before.


----------



## erikradbo

NoamL said:


> @Alex W thank you for making this library.



The WW sounds really warm and cosy here in the mix. Is that with the main mix?


----------



## NoamL

erikradbo said:


> The WW sounds really warm and cosy here in the mix. Is that with the main mix?


Main mix going into EW Spaces HW Stage. Then an EQ that's cutting a couple dB of low mids, and some Kramer Tape.

John Williams (and orchestrators Conrad Pope & Eddie Karam) really knew their stuff on this score. it's a brilliant score for woodwinds.

I'd still like to push it back some but that'll have to do for tonight.

As usual with the CS series it's gonna be a thing of diving into the mics, referencing some soundtracks I like and throwing up a new mix with 3x the RAM  (4x here!!)

This library will turn into a big RAM hog if you have 12 woodwind soloists AND the sections loaded up with 4 mics tuned to your custom mix. But I'm starting to think it might be worth it if this becomes the only woodwinds you need. I still like some of the very romantic legato solos from Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds. But this certainly already replaces the shorts of that library, and all of SSTW... at least IMO.


----------



## erikradbo

NoamL said:


> Main mix going into EW Spaces HW Stage. Then an EQ that's cutting a couple dB of low mids, and some Kramer Tape.


Sounds great. In the video from Alex the room sounded a bit "much" when exposed, but works v well in context.


----------



## ridgero

@Alex W 

Do you have any video footage of the recording sessions? 

I think I speak for everyone when I say we would love to see a "Behind the Scenes" video!!!


----------



## jononotbono

NoamL said:


> I'm still learning the library but here is the MIDI if anyone wants to check it out. Notice no keyswitching. You can _play in_ a John Williams woodwind part with this library, more or less.
> 
> It really feels like everything in the Cinematic Studio Series came together for this library. Consistent sampling. Consistent programming. Two kinds of legato, "lyrical" with lots of transition speed options and beautiful retonguing/rebowing; "marcato" with an active, energetic feeling and the ability to accent notes fairly well within a phrase. Easy to learn keyswitching (although why is the legato G# on this library?? Because of the bassoon range?) and making the instruments interchangeable against the same MIDI input.
> 
> All of this ends up helping create an excellent woodwinds library. Let's face it, one of the reasons we don't write for woodwinds very often in the sample world is because "woodwind writing" means programming 5 or 6 parts when we could just slap on one line of some a4 horns and call it a day. This library really takes away that excuse more than anything I've played with before.


Is this it? From you, I expect John Williams’ entire back catalogue in midi transcription.


----------



## ChickenAndARoll

Does anyone else not have the full ensemble patch? My installation was 98.5GB


----------



## Kony

ChickenAndARoll said:


> Does anyone else not have the full ensemble patch? My installation was 98.5GB


It should be 105Gbs


----------



## Kony

axb312 said:


> Is there legato delay? How many ms?


3 legato speeds - 220ms, 130ms and 90ms
Shorts are 60ms


----------



## Artemi

hello @Alex W link under youtube videos isn't working
it should be like this https://cinematicstudioseries.com/woodwinds/


----------



## NoamL

After comparing against some more excerpts from Harry Potter (my fave woodwinds score) *I have a big suggestion.* Would it be possible to add one more mic signal called "Section", which would be a mixdown of the overheads, tree and room. Then you could have all the mics represented in just two signals, "Section" and "Close" (with the ability to automate the Close amount over time using Kontakt's tools). It seems to me that mix mic that ships with the library is a good compromise but it feels too proximal for section work (i.e. I'd like to lower or remove the close mic), and yet not 100% "spotlit" enough for a solo like that English Horn line. the advantage of a Section+Close setup is it would *have half the RAM * of loading all 4 mic positions.

Don't take that as gospel just yet, I only downloaded the library an hour ago, but that's the impression.

compare -


----------



## Tremendouz

Me seeing the email: "Oh, wonder if anyone has finished downloading yet"

*Checks out VI-Control*

9 pages full of first impressions and quick demos


----------



## constaneum

For manual download, how would you guys extract the file ? I noticed some files are titled "MIX", some are "SEP".


----------



## axb312

Not my video or youtube page..


----------



## AudioLoco

axb312 said:


> Not my video or youtube page..



Flute has excellent agility, nice...


----------



## purple

Another short star wars demo to showcase how well the woodwinds perform as a "choir". First is the out of the box mix, completely dry, then EQ to cut some of the harshness and mud, and finally one with the EQ and a little 7H reverb. Maybe too much reverb. It's too late at night for me to tell. It should be noted that all these parts were 100% played in live, within a couple takes in fact for most parts. I'm going to get into mic mixing with fresh ears tomorrow.


----------



## purple

axb312 said:


> Not my video or youtube page..



Damn I was gonna do that one!


----------



## Artemi

so does it come with individual instruments?


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Quick take on Princess Leia´s theme (alongside CSS and CSB).
So far really enjoying the sound and playability.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Hibernation is over!


----------



## purple

You know what guys I might genuinely never buy another ww library.


----------



## jimjazzuk

Felt genuine elation this morning when I got the e-mail. After such a terrible 2020, this is one of the first things to look forward to in a long time. Cheers @Alex W for cheering us all up! (p.s. it sounds great!)


----------



## Nils Neumann

I want to hear the robber with CSW!


----------



## BlueStar

The legato improvisation video is really good to hear the pure library.
My personal favourites are:
Bassoon
English Horn
Oboe (especially when played fast)
Flute (fast legato)
Thanks for your hard work!


----------



## MarcHedenberg

it's happening!!!!


----------



## Bluemount Score

I'm waiting for my order confirmation mail... how long did it take you guys until you got it after purchase?


----------



## purple

Bluemount Score said:


> I'm waiting for my order confirmation mail... how long did it take you guys until you got it after purchase?


It was there before I was even able to switch tabs...


----------



## N.Caffrey

Bluemount Score said:


> I'm waiting for my order confirmation mail... how long did it take you guys until you got it after purchase?


Immediately


----------



## Bluemount Score

N.Caffrey said:


> Immediately


Well that sucks! I neither have received an order confirmation from PayPal so far, but do see the payment in my PayPal account


----------



## Pianolando

Congratulations on an amazing release! The marcato patch runs were extremely impressive and the legatos all sound great. I bought it right away.


----------



## constaneum

Bluemount Score said:


> I'm waiting for my order confirmation mail... how long did it take you guys until you got it after purchase?


pretty instant


----------



## Bluemount Score

constaneum said:


> pretty instant


Hm... gonna wait a bit more before contacting the support.


----------



## Penthagram

I want to join in the congratulations. Downloading the library right now. Those legatos and runs are fantastic. Still, my downloader has 4 hours to go.

I will play with my recorder in the meantime


----------



## Kurosawa

Thank you so much!!!!


----------



## Nils Neumann

Just little side mark, the pricing is insane!


----------



## Pablocrespo

So, anybody knows how much ram it takes to load all the soloists?


----------



## Scott S

Also wanted to check about RAM. I've only got 8 GB, but I've managed to use CSS successfully by only composing with one string section at a time and freezing all the other tracks that I'm not working on. I'm wondering if I'd be able to do the same with CSW. I only plan to use soloists rather than ensemble patches, and it would be 3-4 at most.


----------



## Steve Martin

Just found the email giving me a discount for various reasons, and just listening to the first demo, Northern lights. It's amazing! Wow, thank you Cinematic Studios.


----------



## Tinesaeriel

After staying up WAAAAY too late into this morning, I made a short demo!

...Folks, this one's It. Like, IT it. All the other Woodwinds libraries can go home now. It's gonna be a long, long, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time before another woodwinds library replaces this in my template.


----------



## Instrugramm

Ok no can do this month but at some point in the near future this will be mine, curious to compare it to BWW, BBC, Cinewinds etc.

Only a fewa hours ago I wrote a little piece and although CSS might not be the only strings library I use, there's no mock-up without that damn library, it just lifts every composition (anxious to get the runs update).


----------



## Bluemount Score

Tinesaeriel said:


> After staying up WAAAAY too late into this morning, I made a short demo!
> 
> ...Folks, this one's It. Like, IT it. All the other Woodwinds libraries can go home now. It's gonna be a long, long, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time before another woodwinds library replaces this in my template.


Sounds beautiful!


----------



## easyrider

purple said:


> You know what guys I might genuinely never buy another ww library.


So Berlin loses its top spot?


----------



## ridgero

I‘m blown away by the demos, such a wonderful and warm sonority!


----------



## jononotbono

easyrider said:


> So Berlin loses its top spot?


I was thinking that exact same thing. Berlin Winds is amazing. I’m finding it hard to believe one library comparison to a completely different type of winds library that has separate players and a huge amount of content can even be compared. But I haven’t bought CSW yet (and I do love Alex’s other libraries) so I have no idea.


----------



## Kony

Scott S said:


> Also wanted to check about RAM. I've only got 8 GB, but I've managed to use CSS successfully by only composing with one string section at a time and freezing all the other tracks that I'm not working on. I'm wondering if I'd be able to do the same with CSW. I only plan to use soloists rather than ensemble patches, and it would be 3-4 at most.


The soloists are approximately between 0.5-0.7Gbs each - it varies on which soloist - so you should be okay


----------



## Consona

I got a loyalty discount email just because I bought Cinematic Strings 2 some years ago. What a company. Saving my money for CSW as we speak!  Can't wait to have it!


----------



## mcalis

Berlin Woodwinds does things that CSW can't, like trills (measured and unmeasured) up to 4ths and 5ths, 16th and 16th triplet repetitions and 3 kinds of attack on sustained notes. Based on first impressions, CSW has a more soloistic feel and with the wonderful legato seems better positioned to take lead lines in woodwind passages with Berlin doing more of the textural background work. Still early days though!


----------



## MSutherlandComp

Alex has done it again!


----------



## Eptesicus

Woke up. Saw the news. Bought it.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Still haven't received any e-mails regarding order confirmation. I bought something else via PayPal afterwards and neither got a confirmation there. So I guess it's some sort of PayPal delay on my side... hm :( Why now?


----------



## toddkreuz

Downloaded several times now, and still coming up with missing files.

Very disappointed.


----------



## Kony

toddkreuz said:


> Downloaded several times now, and still coming up with missing files.
> 
> Very disappointed.


Is there an alert for which files are missing?


----------



## Simon Ravn

OMG I just found out NOW that this is really out. I am soooo late to the party! Listening to demos. Sounds promising!


----------



## Eptesicus

Bluemount Score said:


> Still haven't received any e-mails regarding order confirmation. I bought something else via PayPal afterwards and neither got a confirmation there. So I guess it's some sort of PayPal delay on my side... hm :( Why now?



Doesnt sound right. I got the serial email instantly.


----------



## RMH

1. I'll have to study it a little more, but the sound is better than I expected.
2. There is an error in the middle of the note that the note continues if it is played in the logic. How can this be controlled?
3. This symptom appears to be caused by multi-track use.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Eptesicus said:


> Doesnt sound right. I got the serial email instantly.


I have now received the PayPal confirmation and the confirmation from the CS website. It says another e-mail with order details (incl serial and download links I assume) coming in the next minutes. Alright, let's see!


----------



## madfloyd

Purchased and downloading!


----------



## ThomasJ.Curran

Simon Ravn said:


> OMG I just found out NOW that this is really out. I am soooo late to the party! Listening to demos. Sounds promising!


Haha same, I've been following this thread for over 2 years. Its finally out! I hope it lives up to peoples expectations, the demos sound great for sure.


----------



## NothingToHide

Has anything been changed regarding midi CC assignment and automation?

A long time ago I wrote an email at Alex that I liked the libraries a lot, but need midi control of all parameters in my template. Several of the switches and all of the mic options are not controllable via Midi CC and automation only covers the mic fader (not any other parameter at all).

So, this means you have to do all these settings on the GUI and can’t change them within the piece. It also makes it really difficult to use in VEpro where you really need to be able to control everything from your DAW otherwise it makes using the library uncomfortable. And since the CS libraries are locked, there’s not even anything you can do about it ...

Alex back then (I think it was at the time of CSB) kindly replied that my suggestion was very reasonable and he will consider doing something about that. So, to all who already downloaded? Has anything improved regarding midi control or automation?

@Alex W : Is this still something you consider or are there any reasons you decided against it? Thanks!

The library sounds great!  This is just something very important to me.


----------



## filipjonathan

RMH said:


> 1. I'll have to study it a little more, but the sound is better than I expected.
> 2. There is an error in the middle of the note that the note continues if it is played in the logic. How can this be controlled?
> 3. This symptom appears to be caused by multi-track use.



Not sure why that's happening but you can always click the exclamation mark in Kontakt to cut the sound.


----------



## RMH

filipjonathan said:


> Not sure why that's happening but you can always click the exclamation mark in Kontakt to cut the sound.


Thank you. I'll try.


----------



## manuhz

No ensemble patches this time?? Why??!!


----------



## Jaap

Bluemount Score said:


> Still haven't received any e-mails regarding order confirmation. I bought something else via PayPal afterwards and neither got a confirmation there. So I guess it's some sort of PayPal delay on my side... hm :( Why now?


Did you check the junk/spam folder? Those confirmation mails go there sometimes

Edit, missed your update you posted later


----------



## Kevperry777

RMH said:


> 1. I'll have to study it a little more, but the sound is better than I expected.
> 2. There is an error in the middle of the note that the note continues if it is played in the logic. How can this be controlled?
> 3. This symptom appears to be caused by multi-track use.



Interesting.....thats the same error that happens in CSB and CSS.


----------



## Sovereign

manuhz said:


> No ensemble patches this time?? Why??!!


Website says these will come in an update.


----------



## SoundChris

Very cool. Will the fast legato also be added to CSSS? If that is the case this would be exactly what I was missing in CSSS. So plz make it happen


----------



## manuhz

Sovereign said:


> Website says these will come in an update.


Oopps missed that info! That´s great!!


----------



## manuhz

SoundChris said:


> Very cool. Will the fast legato also be added to CSSS? If that is the case this would be exactly what I was missing in CSSS. So plz make it happen


+1


----------



## Bluemount Score

Jaap said:


> Did you check the junk/spam folder? Those confirmation mails go there sometimes
> 
> Edit, missed your update you posted later


I now received all e-mails, with a delay of about 3 hours. Shouldn't have contacted the support, but who could have known. CSW, here I come!


----------



## RMH

Kevperry777 said:


> Interesting.....thats the same error that happens in CSB and CSS.


Oh, It's sad...


----------



## Jaap

Bluemount Score said:


> I now received all e-mails, with a delay of about 3 hours. Shouldn't have contacted the support, but who could have known. CSW, here I come!


Enjoy! Looking forward to load it up as well later today.


----------



## Loïc D

Can some post here how much RAM it takes (average per instrument for 1 mic) ?
I’m limited on RAM (16Go).

TBH I’m thinking buying a ww library (either CSW or Infinite woodwinds). I currently have only Spitfire Studio WW and I lose too much time with articulations / volume / tone discrepancies along instruments.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

The banner didn't get the wake-up call haha... "Cinematic Studio Woodwinds - COMING SOON"


----------



## axb312

@Alex W Just out of interest, how many dynamic layers and RRs does this have?


----------



## Bluemount Score

DarkestShadow said:


> The banner didn't get the wake-up call haha... "Cinematic Studio Woodwinds - COMING SOON"


The banner itself doesn't believe it either


----------



## Bluemount Score

axb312 said:


> @Alex W Just out of interest, how many dynamic layers and RRs does this have?


Curious as well... CSS and CSB both had 4 I think. Winds would be fine with 3, so I guess it's 3 - 4 dynamic layers.


----------



## Ashermusic

Looking forward to trying it out.


----------



## Tremendouz

Loïc D said:


> Can some post here how much RAM it takes (average per instrument for 1 mic) ?
> I’m limited on RAM (16Go).
> 
> TBH I’m thinking buying a ww library (either CSW or Infinite woodwinds). I currently have only Spitfire Studio WW and I lose too much time with articulations / volume / tone discrepancies along instruments.


Flute takes 0.68GB, alto flute 0.56GB to me (depends on your kontakt settings?)

By the way, I'm noticing the flute tends to get a little sharp when playing loud but it adds a nice human feel to it I guess? 

EDIT: 0.68GB for flute, not 0.86. Pretty similar to the strings and brass it seems.


----------



## emilio_n

Bluemount Score said:


> Still haven't received any e-mails regarding order confirmation. I bought something else via PayPal afterwards and neither got a confirmation there. So I guess it's some sort of PayPal delay on my side... hm :( Why now?


After buying with PayPal, you need to finish the process on the page of Fastspring. If you don't have even the PayPal mail, maybe you missed the last step. I had this problem in the past.

Edit: Sorry, I read that your problem is solved now.


----------



## Bluemount Score

emilio_n said:


> After buying with PayPal, you need to finish the process on the page of Fastspring. If you don't have even the PayPal mail, maybe you missed the last step. I had this problem in the past.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, I read that your problem is solved now.


Yes, I thought so too this might have happened, but yea, the payment did show on my PayPal account, so this could not have been it. It was just some sort of delay...

nvm, download is running now. Will go on a walk in the meantime.


----------



## Loïc D

Tremendouz said:


> Flute takes 0.68GB, alto flute 0.56GB to me (depends on your kontakt settings?)
> 
> By the way, I'm noticing the flute tends to get a little sharp when playing loud but it adds a nice human feel to it I guess?
> 
> EDIT: 0.68GB for flute, not 0.86. Pretty similar to the strings and brass it seems.


Thanks!
I suppose it’s for 1 mic and all articulations loaded ?


----------



## Tremendouz

Loïc D said:


> Thanks!
> I suppose it’s for 1 mic and all articulations loaded ?


Yep!


----------



## Banquet

The demos sound brilliant. Alex is a very talented composer! I would love to hear a demo where someone has different libraries playing the same lines, so we can hear the difference. Either way, I'll be buying sooner or later (quite possibly sooner!)
Edit, if anyone does do a comparison demo, please include BBCSO (SStWW would be handy as well!)


----------



## ridgero

Bluemount Score said:


> Still haven't received any e-mails regarding order confirmation. I bought something else via PayPal afterwards and neither got a confirmation there. So I guess it's some sort of PayPal delay on my side... hm :( Why now?


Are you sure you completed the procedure, there is one last page were you have to confirm your order.


----------



## Sunny Schramm

ChickenAndARoll said:


> Does anyone else not have the full ensemble patch? My installation was 98.5GB


same here - just 98.5 after downloading it manually. but the solos and the sections are there and the batch resave were also fine.


----------



## mcalis

axb312 said:


> @Alex W Just out of interest, how many dynamic layers and RRs does this have?


It's in the manual:



> The Sustains in CSW were sampled in three dynamics, from pp to ﬀ (controlled via the mod wheel CC1), and feature a wide expressive dynamic range, perfect for adding expressive melodies and textures to any piece.



Whilst there is no mention of how many RR's there are on the shorts, I think it's 7x rr for repetitions, 4x rr for staccatissimo and staccato, and 2x for sfz. But that's just by ear.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

When I saw this thread had gained 13 pages the past X something hours, I knew something was up!


----------



## Tremendouz

I'm almost ashamed to show such a rough WIP with almost inexistent modwheel work and sloppy timings (100% my fault, not the library's) but I threw CSW into a project. Flute, alto flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoons a2, contrabassoon.

The only flaw I noticed so far is quite noticeable timbre change in the (low register of the) alto flute when crossfading between the dynamic layers but I guess that's inevitable unless you sample at least 5 or so dynamics.

The composition is not mine but from a very nice video game, but I'm making a "slightly" grander version haha


----------



## Bluemount Score

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> When I saw this thread had gained 13 pages the past X something hours, I knew something was up!


Well, could have been just another update post from Alex, you never know what makes people hyped! But you were right!


----------



## ned3000

Just downloaded and installed. Everything I've tried so far sounds outstanding. The marcato/legato runs are flawless! That will be super useful as I really don't like using prerecorded runs. If the new CSS thing works as well as the WW, that will also be huge.


----------



## ethormusic

overall I'm really happy with CSW. BUT...I might have found some minor bugs with the legato for solo oboe, solo clarinet, bass clarinet, and solo bassoon. What seems to be happening is there is an extra sustain after releasing a note on legato. But it only occurs if you play two or more notes in legato. Is anybody else experiencing this?


----------



## BassClef

OK... still not working. I have used the Cinematic Studio Installer on my iMac THREE TIMES, twice last night and once this morning. The download/install shows "successful" but each time, I only get the "Samples" folder at 101.56GB. There is no .nicnt file or instrument folder or documents folder as I have with all of the other CS libraries.

The CS email I received after purchase does have all the links for manual download, and I noticed that there are 52 zipped files listed, but during the CS Installer process, it only showed downloading 49!

So... If I download those individual zipped files, what software should I use to unpack them into the desired folder on my external SSD?

Thanks


----------



## Sunny Schramm

Tremendouz said:


> The only flaw I noticed so far is quite noticeable timbre change in the (low register of the) alto flute when crossfading between the dynamic layers but I guess that's inevitable unless you sample at least 5 or so dynamics.


thats something I experience with most of the csw instruments. very hard and very noticable dynamic blendings via modwheel. but I am still at 98.5GB maybe the missing 6.5GB are the reason for that? 🤷‍♂️


----------



## spiderfingers

So I look at this thread and see a video post with CSW on it. My first thought: "why do people post fake demos here?"

Then I see another post and I think: odd, it seems Alex gave out beta versions which he hasn't done before.

I scroll further and see more posts. Me: "no, can't be true" and open the official homepage. "OMG, it's there."


----------



## tack

Sunny Schramm said:


> but I am still at 98.5GB maybe the missing 6.5GB are the reasm for that?


You're not missing anything. It's just a units confusion.

CSW is 98.5 GiB (proper power-of-2 units that _should_ be what we call a GB if you ask me) or 105.8GB (fake marketing power-of-10 units).


----------



## quickbrownf0x

Ahwmagaawd it's here and it sounds gorgeous. 😭


----------



## muziksculp

Sovereign said:


> Website says these will come in an update.


Where in the website ? I still can't find this. 

EDIT : Oh.. OK, I see it now.Quote form the website : 

*"A Full Ensemble patch will be released as an update in the near future."*

Is there a pdf user's manual ?

For the Legato mode in this library, anyone know what the negative delay compensation value is for the legato ?


----------



## Ben Mendiola

axb312 said:


> Not my video or youtube page..



Oh hey, that would be mine. Thanks for sharing it! I definitely did not start this back in December when we all thought it was arriving then... 

I was hoping CSW could fake that run around 0:14, but instead it NAILS it. Congratulations to Alex and team for a fantastic woodwinds library.


----------



## ricoderks

muziksculp said:


> Where in the website ? I still can't find this.
> 
> Is there a pdf user's manual ?
> 
> For the Legato mode in this library, anyone know what the negative delay compensation value is for the legato ?


On the woodwinds page. 
There is an pdf when you downloaded the library.
My guess is the delay compensation is in there too.


----------



## muziksculp

ricoderks said:


> On the woodwinds page.
> There is an pdf when you downloaded the library.
> My guess is the delay compensation is in there too.


I'm guessing there is only one value for the delay compensation, not three like in CSS. I haven't downloaded the library yet, so I'm just curious to know some of these details. I'm also hoping to see a one delay comp. will be implemented for the upcoming CSS update.


----------



## ridgero

Servers seem to be not busy anymore. Downloading with 35 MB/s


----------



## Bluemount Score

Just played with it for the first time. First impression is very good.

Favorites so far:
- Solo Oboe (damn, that thing sings)
- Bass Clarinet (try some short notes on this one... fantastic body and tone)

Very happy from what I heard yet. As someone said before, in some instruments (especially low Alto Flute) you can hear a tone shift between the mf and ff layer when crossfading, but it's not too bad. The dynamic range itself is the best from any of my woodwind libraries. Depends if you like that it fades to niente when the modwheel is all the way down (I do like that).
The mix mic is somewhat too close for me, no problem though getting some distance with the room mic.
It's a consistent, clean and very lively sounding library. No "ghost" samples or weird pitches / irregular timing offsets found yet.


----------



## Sovereign

muziksculp said:


> I'm guessing there is only one value for the delay compensation, not three like in CSS. I haven't downloaded the library yet, so I'm just curious to know some of these details. I'm also hoping to see a one delay comp. will be implemented for the upcoming CSS update.


Gotta disappoint you, but there are three types of delays, identical to the strings. I'm glad they are in though, they add greatly to the realism.


----------



## muziksculp

Sovereign said:


> Gotta disappoint you, but there are three types of delays, identical to the strings. I'm glad they are in though, they add greatly to the realism.


Thanks. Not disappointed  I just wished we could get the same legato quality using one delay value.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Sovereign said:


> Gotta disappoint you, but there are three types of delays, identical to the strings. I'm glad they are in though, they add greatly to the realism.


The delay length itself is not identical though. e.g. "Slow" for strings is 330ms. For winds it's 220ms.


----------



## muziksculp

Is there a Standard, and Advanced Legato in CSW ?


----------



## Bluemount Score

muziksculp said:


> Is there a Standard, and Advanced Legato in CSW ?


No, just one legato patch that can be turned on and off


----------



## Rob Elliott

Haven't dl and tried out yet but with the walkthrough - the contrabassoon is worth the price of admission alone!!! Ballsy, present, full bodied.....


----------



## muziksculp

I'm guessing that more videos will be posted by Alex showing the library in more details.


----------



## ridgero

muziksculp said:


> I'm guessing that more videos will be posted by Alex showing the library in more details.


I'm looking forward to his Mixing tutorial


----------



## gohrev

Downloading now and SO excited!!!

Finally a replacement for my crappy Spitfire Studio WWs.


----------



## muziksculp

berlin87 said:


> Downloading now and SO excited!!!
> 
> Finally a replacement for my crappy Spitfire Studio WWs.


I know what you mean, I might even remove them to give me some more space on my SSD


----------



## cqd

Bluemount Score said:


> As someone said before, in some instruments (especially low Alto Flute) you can hear a tone shift between the mf and ff layer when crossfading,


Yeah, this kind of stuck out to me too..was going to comment, but didn't..


----------



## coprhead6

cqd said:


> Yeah, this kind of stuck out to me too..was going to comment, but didn't..



I think it’s simply the nature of sampling these very pure timbres. The Oboe especially, since it’s basically a sine wave! The most successful woodwind samples only use one dynamic layer IMO.


----------



## jaketanner

The library sounds a bit forward. Seems too bright and out front...only based off what I am hearing. Is this an accurate assumption?


----------



## Bluemount Score

jaketanner said:


> The library sounds a bit forward. Seems too bright and out front...only based off what I am hearing. Is this an accurate assumption?


The mix mic is a bit upfront imo, so I'm gonna use more main and room mic to blend it with other libraries. Too bright? Wouldn't say so.


----------



## NoamL

NothingToHide said:


> Has anything been changed regarding midi CC assignment and automation?
> 
> A long time ago I wrote an email at Alex that I liked the libraries a lot, but need midi control of all parameters in my template. Several of the switches and all of the mic options are not controllable via Midi CC and automation only covers the mic fader (not any other parameter at all).
> 
> So, this means you have to do all these settings on the GUI and can’t change them within the piece. It also makes it really difficult to use in VEpro where you really need to be able to control everything from your DAW otherwise it makes using the library uncomfortable. And since the CS libraries are locked, there’s not even anything you can do about it ...
> 
> Alex back then (I think it was at the time of CSB) kindly replied that my suggestion was very reasonable and he will consider doing something about that. So, to all who already downloaded? Has anything improved regarding midi control or automation?
> 
> @Alex W : Is this still something you consider or are there any reasons you decided against it? Thanks!
> 
> The library sounds great!  This is just something very important to me.


What parameters are you trying to control with Midi CC? Are you aware you can control all keyswitches with CC58?




Ben Mendiola said:


> Oh hey, that would be mine. Thanks for sharing it! I definitely did not start this back in December when we all thought it was arriving then...
> 
> I was hoping CSW could fake that run around 0:14, but instead it NAILS it. Congratulations to Alex and team for a fantastic woodwinds library.


Welcome Ben and great mockup!



easyrider said:


> So Berlin loses its top spot?


Berlin can sound great, but you have to switch articulations.

Here is some excerpts from my Fawkes The Phoenix mockup. The woodwinds are BWW (pre Revive) on the assistant-computer of a composer I used to assist  after hours mockup!



The issue is that took a very long time. It's based on the philosophy everyone used back in the day of stitching articulations together. There are staccatos, staccatissimos, portatos, _portatos lengthened with Time Machine_, legatos, solo legatos _switching back and forth with the a2 versions_, the whole thing is just an unreadable mess in the DAW and there's a really poor case to be made that anyone would actually write music like this using the library this way, when there is a deadline. It takes the basic problem with DAW wind writing (the need to program many soloists in parallel) and multiplies it.

Whereas with CSW I just downloaded it, loaded up a few tracks with the soloists, put on the legato or marcato articulation, and played it in.

Comparing the two libraries critically I think the above mix of Berlin (iirc it was just Tree 0 and Close -9) is closer to my ideal mix than the one that shipped with CSW.

On the other hand, the marcato legato articulations of CSW have an active and lively feel that I'm missing from Berlin. Even at the loudest dynamic and fastest playing, Berlin still feels like "sustains joined by legato transitions" you know? There isn't that energy there of players _pushing_ the air. Recording two styles of legato is one of CSW's critical advantages.


----------



## Tremendouz

NoamL said:


> Whereas with CSW I just downloaded it, loaded up a few tracks with the soloists, put on the legato or marcato articulation, and played it in.


And that's why I love all the CSSeries libraries: instant gratification yet enough articulations to cover most of my needs.


----------



## Trash Panda

Now that this is out and people have had at least some first impressions of this, is there a reason to get this if you already have Infinite Woodwinds/Infinite Brass and like the tone of those AV libraries?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

NoamL said:


> The issue is that took a very long time. It's based on the philosophy everyone used back in the day of stitching articulations together. There are staccatos, staccatissimos, portatos, _portatos lengthened with Time Machine_, legatos, solo legatos _switching back and forth with the a2 versions_, the whole thing is just an unreadable mess in the DAW and there's a really poor case to be made that anyone would actually write music like this using the library this way, when there is a deadline. It takes the basic problem with DAW wind writing (the need to program many soloists in parallel) and multiplies it.
> 
> Whereas with CSW I just downloaded it, loaded up a few tracks with the soloists, put on the legato or marcato articulation, and played it in.
> 
> Comparing the two libraries critically I think the above mix of Berlin (iirc it was just Tree 0 and Close -9) is closer to my ideal mix than the one that shipped with CSW.
> 
> On the other hand, the marcato legato articulations of CSW have an active and lively feel that I'm missing from Berlin. Even at the loudest dynamic and fastest playing, Berlin still feels like "sustains joined by legato transitions" you know? There isn't that energy there of players _pushing_ the air. Recording two styles of legato is one of CSW's critical advantages.


I'm assuming you still need to switch for sfz attacks, or trills, etc. correct? Not quite as "key switch free" as something like Infinite Woodwinds but better than most? Don't you need to vary velocity for legato speed or is that automatic based on playing speed now?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Trash Panda said:


> Now that this is out and people have had at least some first impressions of this, is there a reason to get this if you already have Infinite Woodwinds/Infinite Brass and like the tone of those AV libraries?


I have those as well and I think it'll come down to tone since agility-wise, IW is a beast. Or if you want to "complete" your Cinematic Studio Series collection.


----------



## NoamL

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I'm assuming you still need to switch for sfz attacks, or trills, etc. correct? Not quite as "key switch free" as something like Infinite Woodwinds but better than most? Don't you need to vary velocity for legato speed or is that automatic based on playing speed now?


Yes you still need to keyswitch for non-sustain articulations and you probably need to go over your CC1, velocity, and note start position after playing it in just to make sure every transition and accent is what you want.

The advantage is that it's possible to have a really nice performance _on one track_, makes it easier to edit, easier to send to orchestration, easier to copy to another woodwind instrument... 

I guess that is possible now with Berlin as well using C.A.P.S.U.L.E. ... if you set it up with the exact same keyswitching on every instrument and then memorize all the keyswitches...


----------



## lucor

Bit disappointed that the legato system is still the same, but other than that this sounds just as great as I anticipated.

Still, I really hope that Alex will overhaul the legato system soon. In its current form it also stands in the way of the whole 'easy drag and drop' to other instruments philosophy, since every library has different legato delay values.

A switch that makes it so that every type of legato transition gets the value of the slowest legato (so 333ms in CSS' case) would be perfect for me (I think Genesis by Audiobro has something like this?)

Other than that I'm a very happy camper!


----------



## jaketanner

Bluemount Score said:


> The mix mic is a bit upfront imo, so I'm gonna use more main and room mic to blend it with other libraries. Too bright? Wouldn't say so.


ok cool. Just going by some demos I've heard. It just sound like the recording is very upfront...like no air to place them in the back...but you say it's a mic mix issue right?


----------



## Bluemount Score

jaketanner said:


> ok cool. Just going by some demos I've heard. It just sound like the recording is very upfront...like no air to place them in the back...but you say it's a mic mix issue right?


Yes I feel so. I have yet to try them out in context (with the other CSS instruments), but on their own the main and of course especially the room mic really put them back into position where I imagine to want them in an orchestral sitting. Also I like the idea of the new overhead mic, but that also has to be tested in context.
Just setting up my template.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Shouldn't the legato milliseconds delay times be the exact same as CSS and CSB? If not, wouldn't that break Alex's example in the video where he copies a CSS MIDI part into CSW with the implication it will just work as expected?


----------



## crubbish

lucor said:


> Bit disappointed that the legato system is still the same, but other than that this sounds just as great as I anticipated.
> 
> Still, I really hope that Alex will overhaul the legato system soon. In its current form it also stands in the way of the whole 'easy drag and drop' to other instruments philosophy, since every library has different legato delay values.
> 
> A switch that makes it so that every type of legato transition gets the value of the slowest legato (so 333ms in CSS' case) would be perfect for me (I think Genesis by Audiobro has something like this?)
> 
> Other than that I'm a very happy camper!


Something like audio imperia system would be amazing but its worth it for the sound ! 

I have a macro set up in cubase to do the offsets for each library which is really handy.


----------



## Ashermusic

lucor said:


> In its current form it also stands in the way of the whole 'easy drag and drop' to other instruments philosophy, since every library has different legato delay values.


Personally, I don't think it is incumbent on developers to design their systems in a way that facilitates "easy drag and drop" to other developers' libraries designed differently. It's to make them work in line with their own design philosophy.


----------



## tehreal

Is it me or does the legato sound really bad? What am I missing? It just doesn't measure up to his other offerings (which I own and love). I can't believe I'm saying this but I may actually pass on this one.


----------



## lucor

Ashermusic said:


> Personally, I don't think it is incumbent on developers to design their systems in a way that facilitates "easy drag and drop" to other developers' libraries designed differently.


I'm not talking about making it work with other developers.


Ashermusic said:


> It's to make them work in line with their own design philosophy.


That's my point, in its current form it doesn't work with their own libraries, because all of them (CSS, CSB, CSW) have different legato delay values:
- *CSS*: 330ms, 250ms, 100ms
- *CSB*: 180ms, 100ms for Trumpets; 230ms, 100ms for all other Brass instruments
- *CSW*: 220ms, 130ms, 90ms
It's a bit of a mess that I wish could be unified, that's all.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

rottoy said:


> No demos of the a2 instruments?


Not the most apparent or pristine demo, but here's one I linked before:









CSW Ens.wav


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





I'll have a demo showing the full range of solos and ensembles hopefully soon.

Edit: Changed dead SoundCloud links to Dropbox.


----------



## axb312

tehreal said:


> Is it me or does the legato sound really bad? What am I missing? It just doesn't measure up to his other offerings (which I own and love). I can't believe I'm saying this but I may actually pass on this one.



Legatos sound pretty good to me...


----------



## jaketanner

tehreal said:


> Is it me or does the legato sound really bad? What am I missing? It just doesn't measure up to his other offerings (which I own and love). I can't believe I'm saying this but I may actually pass on this one.



I hear weird pan movements in the solo Oboe...might be in other instruments as well, but that's the one that I listened to. Sounds like it's slightly left, then center then left again...just weird. Very apparent with headphones.


----------



## Eptesicus

tehreal said:


> Is it me


Yes. it sounds great.


----------



## Rob Elliott

jaketanner said:


> I hear weird pan movements in the solo Oboe...might be in other instruments as well, but that's the one that I listened to. Sounds like it's slightly left, then center then left again...just weird. Very apparent with headphones.


Maybe but for me on the CS series I always narrow and pan just a bit (helps create a 'wider' / detailed soundscape - IMHO.)


----------



## Uiroo

If anyone has time, I'd love to hear some demos of alternating notes (or slow trills), since that's always so hard to do right.

Really happy to see CSW is released


----------



## ned3000

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Shouldn't the legato milliseconds delay times be the exact same as CSS and CSB? If not, wouldn't that break Alex's example in the video where he copies a CSS MIDI part into CSW with the implication it will just work as expected?


I think he was using the marcato attacks when he did that. Maybe those have the same delay?


----------



## Scamper

Hot damn, all those demos just sound amazing.
I've never been that giddy to get my fingers on a library and the remaining 2 days of download are a bit of torture.


----------



## Trombking

Does anyone have problems with the batch resave of the library? I started the batch resave process 20 minutes ago and it's still in the checking for missing samples phase


----------



## Sovereign

ka00 said:


> Is there a list of the instruments that are supposed to have Measured Reps?
> 
> So far, flute and oboe solo don't have them but there's no GUI indication (the art isn't greyed out), so I'm wondering if it's some sort of issue I'm having. No samples load into memory when I enable the Measured Rep on those instruments. I have only checked Piccolo, Flute and Oboe so far...


Works for me for the flute.


----------



## Sunny Schramm

Trombking said:


> Does anyone have problems with the batch resave of the library? I started the batch resave process 20 minutes ago and it's still in the checking for missing samples phase


no problem here.


----------



## NothingToHide

NoamL said:


> What parameters are you trying to control with Midi CC? Are you aware you can control all keyswitches with CC58?


Generally, I want to be able to control ALL parameters via midi CC that I might want to change per project. As this is a question regarding this library but at the same time a general one I created a new topic with a poll for that reason.

From my point of view, it is really not comprehensible how people can live with having to open each software isntrument separately, sometimes switch to the right page and then make the desired setting. If you really change parameters often it is obviously a much quicker way to use Midi CC or automation (in Cubase it does not quite work as well with automation, so I clearly prefer CC). That is why I am always puzzled why some developers wlll not offer their users full flexibility to control all parameters via CC. If you want to discuss it, consider using the thread I created.


----------



## jim2b

Hi Folks,

I just purchased CSW and downloaded and installed them.

I used their installer and it seemed to work fine, but I am obviously missing something.


The only item in the folder is a Samples folder with 29.8G of samples.


Please help, and if I have to do it manually, how do I do that, and what downloader should I use?

Thanks,

Jim


----------



## Rob Elliott

Love that all the instruments midi cc/keyswitches are the same allowing me to create an 'ensemble' patch for quick sketching (via midi send in Cubase). Cool.

I will NEVER again use strings and brass in my projects.

(btw - i love that the wds feel a bit more present. To date I have felt most of my options had a cheesecloth draped over it (even with close mics).


----------



## EivindB

Anyone else getting 400 kBps download speed?


----------



## shponglefan

EivindB said:


> Anyone else getting 400 kBps download speed?



Mine is currently 3 MB/s.


----------



## Pianolando

shponglefan said:


> Mine is currently 3 MB/s.


And mine at 1,5 MB/s. Between 15-30 hours left


----------



## BassClef

jim2b said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I just purchased CSW and downloaded and installed them.
> 
> I used their installer and it seemed to work fine, but I am obviously missing something.
> 
> 
> The only item in the folder is a Samples folder with 29.8G of samples.
> 
> 
> Please help, and if I have to do it manually, how do I do that, and what downloader should I use?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jim


I have the same problem after three attempts. Samples folder only but with 101.56GB (on MacOS) After the "successful" download, here is no "instruments" folder or "documents" folder or .nicnt file as in all of my other CS libraries. I have already emailed CS customer support.


----------



## jim2b

Thanks! I emailed them also.

Jim


----------



## spiderfingers

tehreal said:


> Is it me or does the legato sound really bad? What am I missing? It just doesn't measure up to his other offerings (which I own and love). I can't believe I'm saying this but I may actually pass on this one.



The clarinet's releases are a bit odd, I have to admit. On the other hand, I tested every sampled clarinet I could get my hands onto and there wasn't a single one I was pleased with - unlike the other WW families. I bet the CSW clarinet is still the best one.


----------



## FireGS

Would love to hear a head to head comparison of CSW and Infinite Woodwinds.


----------



## Kevinside

They sound great in the demos, i pass for now...
BWW and SSW are better...my personal opinion


----------



## jaketanner

ka00 said:


> You know, I think I’ve noticed this once or twice on recordings of actual performances of an instrument. I wondered why and thought it possible that the different surfaces in the room were bouncing back certain frequencies more than others, giving an impression that the sound was shifting in the stereo field. Either that or it was an a2 line and one of the two instruments was louder on a certain note?


Could very well be the room bouncing...can be tested with the close mic...I don't have the library, but it is possible for certain mic positions to have that issue...


----------



## ehense

tehreal said:


> Is it me or does the legato sound really bad? What am I missing? It just doesn't measure up to his other offerings (which I own and love). I can't believe I'm saying this but I may actually pass on this one.



The sound and the expression is fantastic, but a lot of legato transitions seem to be out of phase, and make it sound 'a due', not solo. Same problem as with some instruments in BWW. Will probably buy anyway....


----------



## Daric Shire

Did a quick mockup of a cue from httyd 3 with CSW (and CSS) this morning. 

Haven't dived too deep into the library yet but the solo flute is astoundingly good. Will 100% be replacing the other flagship woodwind libraries in my template with this for sure.


----------



## muziksculp

My Kontakt Library Browser looks nicer now


----------



## Robert_G

It's unbelievable how fast my Spitfire Studio Woodwinds hit the trash. I can't imagine ever using them again....not that I used them much anyways. 
Thank goodness I bought them at a 40% off sale.


----------



## Sovereign

ehense said:


> The sound and the expression is fantastic, but a lot of legato transitions seem to be out of phase, and make it sound 'a due', not solo. Same problem as with some instruments in BWW. Will probably buy anyway....


The phasing occurs at specific crossfades between the layers. So with a little care, much of it is avoidable.


----------



## G.Poncelet

Duncan Krummel said:


> Not the most apparent or pristine demo, but here's one I linked before:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll have a demo showing the full range of solos and ensembles hopefully soon.



Beautiful music ! (and good programming in my opinion)


----------



## Rob Elliott

Hey there - for those who use logical preset for CSS offsets - what would be the 'number' I will use for CSW's offset

220 ms
130 ms
90 ms

(if fact if you wouldn't mind to double check my numbers for CSS - that would be great)

CSS

330 ms
250 ms
100 ms

The 'parameter' for 'time' in Cubase is a bit strange - SMPTE??? thanks in advance.


--if you could point me to a conversion tool - I can then double check CSB as well.


EDIT: Sorry - didn't get enough sleep last night. My numbers I had in there were factoring the '60 ms' OVERALL offset I have set. Hence the confusion of what my logical preset numbers were.


----------



## jamayo514

Robert_G said:


> It's unbelievable how fast my Spitfire Studio Woodwinds hit the trash. I can't imagine ever using them again....not that I used them much anyways.
> Thank goodness I bought them at a 40% off sale.


Same


----------



## pawelmorytko

Had a wee go at one of the tracks from Genshin Impact with CSW


----------



## muziksculp

pawelmorytko said:


> Had a wee go at one of the tracks from Genshin Impact with CSW


It sounds super good. Thanks for sharing. 

The CSW instruments have a very natural sound, nothing bothers me when I listen to this, or tells me something sounds off, or is sampled.


----------



## nickhmusic

pawelmorytko said:


> Had a wee go at one of the tracks from Genshin Impact with CSW


Great piece - is the “wetness” I’m hearing (for want of a better word I’m sorry) baked in there or is this added reverb I’m hearing? Thanks!


----------



## pawelmorytko

nickhmusic said:


> Great piece - is the “wetness” I’m hearing (for want of a better word I’m sorry) baked in there or is this added reverb I’m hearing? Thanks!


That's with reverb  I'll edit the post and add a dry version as well!


----------



## Robert_G

*POSSIBLE BROKEN ALTO FLUTE*

Hope its just me, but only the mixed mic works for all articulations. I also noticed in the instruments folder that the file size of the alto flute is quite a bit smaller than all the other instruments.

*Can someone confirm? *

Use any mic or combo of mics EXCEPT the mixed mic. Any other mic will not work. *The repetitions are silent*. *The SFZ is silent* and the Marcato isn't working properly. I really hope its just me.

Again....the mixed mic is fine.


----------



## I like music

Robert_G said:


> *POSSIBLE BROKEN ALTO FLUTE*
> 
> Hope its just me, but only the mixed mic works for all articulations. I also noticed in the instruments folder that the file size of the alto flute is quite a bit smaller than all the other instruments.
> 
> *Can someone confirm? *
> 
> Use any mic or combo of mics EXCEPT the mixed mic. Any other mic will not work. *The repetitions are silent*. *The SFZ is silent* and the Marcato isn't working properly. I really hope its just me.
> 
> Again....the mixed mic is fine.


So you're saying that technically, CSW still hasn't been released! 

Fingers crossed, just a case of a small redownload


----------



## Bluemount Score

Robert_G said:


> *POSSIBLE BROKEN ALTO FLUTE*
> 
> Hope its just me, but only the mixed mic works for all articulations. I also noticed in the instruments folder that the file size of the alto flute is quite a bit smaller than all the other instruments.
> 
> *Can someone confirm? *
> 
> Use any mic or combo of mics EXCEPT the mixed mic. Any other mic will not work. *The repetitions are silent*. *The SFZ is silent* and the Marcato isn't working properly. I really hope its just me.
> 
> Again....the mixed mic is fine.


Ah yes, can confirm this...


----------



## Robert_G

Bluemount Score said:


> Ah yes, can confirm this...


Was worried it was just me. Good to know. I was ready to redownload the whole thing again.


----------



## Eptesicus

Robert_G said:


> *POSSIBLE BROKEN ALTO FLUTE*
> 
> Hope its just me, but only the mixed mic works for all articulations. I also noticed in the instruments folder that the file size of the alto flute is quite a bit smaller than all the other instruments.
> 
> *Can someone confirm? *
> 
> Use any mic or combo of mics EXCEPT the mixed mic. Any other mic will not work. *The repetitions are silent*. *The SFZ is silent* and the Marcato isn't working properly. I really hope its just me.
> 
> Again....the mixed mic is fine.


Correct. I have this issue too. Seems like there are missing samples.


----------



## Robert_G

I like music said:


> So you're saying that technically, CSW still hasn't been released!
> 
> Fingers crossed, just a case of a small redownload


Yes, the instrument files average about 1MB each....so it's an easy fix....hopefully....


----------



## Bluemount Score

Maybe that's why the library size isn't exactly 105GB

missing Alto Flute samples


----------



## fourier

Same. I'm sure it will be ironed out soon.


----------



## Robert_G

Hopefully we already have all the samples. My guess is that the issue is in the instrument file as it's about 25% smaller than the next smallest one. It sticks out like a sore thumb.


----------



## Eptesicus

Aside from the missing alto flute samples(!)

Really impressed so far. Somehow Cinematic Studio really capture expression/lyricism and the legato is absolutely fantastic, putting a lot of other libraries efforts to shame.

The soft dynamics are a real treat. Spent ages noodling in piano using the 2 clarinet patch...beautiful.

This has the nicest and sweetest oboe i have played virtual instrument wise. I dislike the tone of a lot of them.

If i had to find a criticism i guess it would be that the crossfades are not perfect all the time, but no library has managed to do this with 100% success yet so cant really mark it down for that. The crossfades are just as good as anything else out there in my opinion.


----------



## Robert_G

The tone of these woodwinds passes expectations. For $279....you would have to be pretty selfish to ask for anything more.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Here's another snippet just because I'm having so much fun with this library...


----------



## filipjonathan

pawelmorytko said:


> Here's another snippet just because I'm having so much fun with this library...


Oh my goodness....sounds just like the recording


----------



## Bluemount Score

pawelmorytko said:


> Here's another snippet just because I'm having so much fun with this library...


What mic settings are this, if I might ask? sounds great.


----------



## gohrev

Finally downloaded, installed and activated (Native Access) the library, after downloading for about 8 hours at 120kbps.. Listening to the demos, I _love_ the sound of the oboe, my biggest pet peeve with Spitfire Studio's squeezed cat oboe.

Can't wait to try it all out tomorrow


----------



## Everratic

This probably won’t happen, but I’d love to buy individual instruments from this, especially the flute and oboe. It’s not just a matter of avoiding redundancy due to having other good woodwinds — I also don’t have enough space for the entire library and don’t want to buy a new ssd.


----------



## Bluemount Score

berlin87 said:


> Finally downloaded, installed and activated (Native Access) the library, after downloading for about 8 hours at 120kbps.. Listening to the demos, I _love_ the sound of the oboe, my biggest pet peeve with Spitfire Studio's squeezed cat oboe.
> 
> Can't wait to try it all out tomorrow


Yes the oboe is one of the best here. There is no instrument I dislike though... perhaps the alto flute, because of missing samples


----------



## Architekton

This sounds sick! Well done, Alex!


----------



## Architekton

Can someone do short SW binary suns melody mock up?


----------



## pawelmorytko

Bluemount Score said:


> What mic settings are this, if I might ask? sounds great.


Just the mix mics, with some reverbs and Precedence


----------



## Rob Elliott

pawelmorytko said:


> Just the mix mics, with some reverbs and Precedence


Yep the mix mics are quite good (I don't use mix mics on CSS/CSSS/CSB.) Having said that - given time I'll probably resort to the 4 mics in just the portion that makes my attitude cheery.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Rob Elliott said:


> Yep the mix mics are quite good (I don't use mix mics on CSS/CSSS/CSB.) Having said that - given time I'll probably resort to the 4 mics in just the portion that makes my attitude cheery.


Interesting. I think the mix mics of CSS are good (even though I prefer to have less main mic) but in my opinion, the mix mics for CSB and CSW are too close up sounding. However I somehow didn't feel so when listening to @pawelmorytko demos. Might be because of context of other samples


----------



## Gingerbread

Does anyone also have Infinite Woodwinds? Would love to hear a comparison between them and CSW.


----------



## Robert_G

The whole mixed mic thing is different from one lib to another. For most uses on CSS and CSB, the mixed mics do the job, but with a lib like 8Dio Century Strings, the mixed mic is too thin...especially the 'A' settings. The 'B' mixed mic is better, but using all the mics with a couple of adjustments and 8Dio Century Strings sound beautiful.


----------



## Trash Panda

On one hand, Infinite Brass and Woodwinds are all I need. On the other hand, CSB and CSW would complete the current CS lineup collection...


----------



## zazambor

I also finished downloading - what an amazing library! So far very happy with everything, legato is just as good (if not better) than CSS. Now I can finally get rid of the BBC SO woodwinds, which have been quite tricky to program..

Great job Alex & team, thank you for making these amazing products for such an affordable price!


----------



## muziksculp

Everratic said:


> This probably won’t happen, but I’d love to buy individual instruments from this, especially the flute and oboe. It’s not just a matter of avoiding redundancy due to having other good woodwinds — I also don’t have enough space for the entire library and don’t want to buy a new ssd.


I'm selling my CSW Solo Flute for $15,000. Let me know if you are interested


----------



## Robert_G

So it seems vibrato is 'on' or 'off'. I realize that libraries that transition to different vibrato speeds are more or less simulated. I'm interested in the developers decision to go 'on' or 'off'.

Thoughts?


----------



## Bluemount Score

Robert_G said:


> So it seems vibrato is 'on' or 'off'. I realize that libraries that transition to different vibrato speeds are more or less simulated. I'm interested in the developers decision to go 'on' or 'off'.
> 
> Thoughts?


I just heard it's very hard to get a smooth transition done right. Always sounds like 2 instruments playing at once


----------



## muziksculp

So for those who purchased CSW, is it your Go-To Woodwinds Library now ? 

And do you still like another Woodwind libraries' specific instrument/s better than the CSW version ?


----------



## JonAdamich

Only the sample folder downloads for me. I can't add it to native access either as there's no nicnt file. I saw a few people were having this issue as well. Anyone hear of an update?

Edit: They emailed me back with links for the missing files. If you are having a similar issue, throw then a message, they will fix it quick


----------



## Toecutter

Really enjoying CSW! Not going to the extreme of saying it's replacing my VSL woodwinds but it's a really really REALLY nice alternative and I'm very pleased with the loyalty discount. Thanks Alex and


----------



## ZeeCount

muziksculp said:


> So for those who purchased CSW, is it your Go-To Woodwinds Library now ?
> 
> And do you still like another Woodwind libraries' specific instrument/s better than the CSW version ?


I've been using it for about 4 hours now, and I am super impressed. As an oboist, the only other library I've found that I liked the sound of the oboe in was Berlin Woodwind Expansion B. So far the only thing it doesn't do particuarly well is super fast runs (AV wind is the only library I have that does that however), unless I'm misunderstanding how the marcato patches work.

By far the best thing about it is how consistent it is across all the instruments. It makes trying out different orchestrations a breaze.


----------



## Robert_G

zazambor said:


> . Now I can finally get rid of the BBC SO woodwinds, which have been quite tricky to program..


Seems that Spitfire is taking its lumps in this thread.....


----------



## Trash Panda

ZeeCount said:


> I've been using it for about 4 hours now, and I am super impressed. As an oboist, the only other library I've found that I liked the sound of the oboe in was Berlin Woodwind Expansion B. So far the only thing it doesn't do particuarly well is super fast runs (AV wind is the only library I have that does that however), unless I'm misunderstanding how the marcato patches work.
> 
> By far the best thing about it is how consistent it is across all the instruments. It makes trying out different orchestrations a breaze.


Any things it does better than AV?


----------



## Bluemount Score

Here is some CSW mixed with CSS in my first attempt to combine the two libraries. And now, I need some sleep.


----------



## ZeeCount

Trash Panda said:


> Any things it does better than AV?


Pretty much everything. AV's biggest issues are in the attacks and general tone of the instrumets. It's biggest strengths are that you have complete freedom to shape the expression and the legato can handle any speed (AV does struggle with longer legatos as it tends to glide between notes too noticeably).


----------



## Beans

muziksculp said:


> So for those who purchased CSW, is it your Go-To Woodwinds Library now ?
> 
> And do you still like another Woodwind libraries' specific instrument/s better than the CSW version ?


After a few hours with CSW and comparing it mostly to BWW, I'm quite happy to have quite a few of these CSW instruments but think BWW is still my best purchase for woodwinds. Once BWW is on SINE and I have Mic Merge, it'll be even better. It's possibly not a fair comparison, given the cost and size of BWW (not even taking into account CSW's loyalty pricing, BWW is almost twice the price of CSW).

This CSW oboe is freaking sweet (maybe my favorite oboe tone) and the shorts are absolutely killer, but it's not like it's truly perfect. I've found a few places in which it's not very agile compared to BWW.

There are many times, as expected, in which you have to watch your modwheel on soloists so you don't create the sound of two players. In those cases, I'm fine with having a narrow band to play with per note, and instead using expression to fake intensity. I'd actually almost rather the dynamics for solo longs work like the shorts, in which we could toggle between them instead of fading. Sort of like velocity is used in some libraries, but still using velocity here for legato speed. Or, swap it: velocity for intensity (or, uh, velocity) and modwheel for legato speed.

It's a lovely addition, especially, for the loyalty price. Holy cripes, it's a good deal. And, it's far easier to get running than BWW, given the familiar Cinematic Studio KS schema. There are also times in which the mics can feel more "present" in CSW. Almost VSL level of clarity, the lack thereof sometimes bugs me with BWW (not the expansions).

I don't have the VSL Synchron-ized Woodwinds, but my perception is that they're also still pretty damn hot. I've got the BBO woodwinds and the oboe that comes with Epic Orchestra 2, and they're all lovely. If I'm feeling dumb one day, I'll still pick those up.


----------



## Virtuoso

Robert_G said:


> Seems that Spitfire is taking its lumps in this thread.....


Spitfire: "The people have spoken and we have listened. It's clear that what they are asking for is another rehash of our existing products, ideally keeping all the bugs, but... _recorded in a different room!!_"


----------



## ZeeCount

Here's some bits that I've tried it in.


----------



## court++

Jesus you guys are talented.


----------



## daan1412

The library sounds great and I'm happy it's finally out. Congrats to Alex and the team! I'm sure I'll be getting this, especially since I have CSS and CSB. Not sure if I'll go for it now, though... I have a budget for one purchase this month and I'm torn between CSW, Vista and possibly HO Opus.


----------



## filipjonathan

Trash Panda said:


> On one hand, Infinite Brass and Woodwinds are all I need. On the other hand, CSB and CSW would complete the current CS lineup collection...


On one hand, you need CSB and CSW. On the other hand, you need CSB and CSW. Simple 😄


----------



## JonS

filipjonathan said:


> On one hand, you need CSB and CSW. On the other hand, you need CSB and CSW. Simple 😄


I love the legato of CSB, however I don’t love the tone of too many of the instruments so I rarely ever use it given the other libraries I have.


----------



## madfloyd

Yes the tone of CSB is not its strength but the scripting is. I have been hoping that the woodwinds would be more like CSS than CSB but I am happy to support Alex either way.


----------



## Trash Panda

filipjonathan said:


> On one hand, you need CSB and CSW. On the other hand, you need CSB and CSW. Simple 😄


I’d say you’re a bad influence, but I kind of asked for it.


----------



## jaketanner

zazambor said:


> I also finished downloading - what an amazing library! So far very happy with everything, legato is just as good (if not better) than CSS. Now I can finally get rid of the BBC SO woodwinds, which have been quite tricky to program..
> 
> Great job Alex & team, thank you for making these amazing products for such an affordable price!


I have BBCSO...I think the winds are pretty good. I was thinking of CSW, so are you using CSW with BBC? Let me know how they blend.


----------



## muziksculp

jaketanner said:


> I have BBCSO...I think the winds are pretty good. I was thinking of CSW, so are you using CSW with BBC? Let me know how they blend.


Just buy CSW, don't ask too many questions  140 Pages, what do you think the fuss is all about if they were so/so woodwinds.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

muziksculp said:


> Just buy CSW, don't ask too many questions  140 Pages, what do you think the fuss is all about if they were so/so woodwinds.


How many pages did bbcso before jake bought bbcso?

Personally I'm waiting a bit. 

I have CSS, CSSS, CSB so it's probably inevitable that one day I'll pick them up for fun, I do hate how upfront the mixed position is, bit I'd probably just take the hit in ram to use an extra mic or two


----------



## muziksculp

ProfoundSilence said:


> How many pages did bbcso before jake bought bbcso?
> 
> Personally I'm waiting a bit.
> 
> I have CSS, CSSS, CSB so it's probably inevitable that one day I'll pick them up for fun, I do hate how upfront the mixed position is, bit I'd probably just take the hit in ram to use an extra mic or two


So . Are you competing with Jake ?


----------



## BassClef

JonAdamich said:


> Only the sample folder downloads for me. I can't add it to native access either as there's no nicnt file. I saw a few people were having this issue as well. Anyone hear of an update?
> 
> Edit: They emailed me back with links for the missing files. If you are having a similar issue, throw then a message, they will fix it quick


Same here... got the email back with links for missing files. I copies the documents and instruments folders as well as the .nicnt file, then Kontakt was able to add the library, but now with every instrument opened I get missing files popup from Kontakt and the instrument opens but not in the CSW GUI.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

muziksculp said:


> So . Are you competing with Jake ?


No, this is my normal schedule with the cinematic series 

There isn't any intro or anything, so I just pick it up down the line when I feel like getting it under my hands.


----------



## Gmetcalfe

Tinesaeriel said:


> So I just looked
> 
> 105 GB size for this library
> 
> PHEW
> 
> Then again, Alex always said this was gonna be the biggest library released, and he wasn't kidding!
> 
> Looks like I'm gonna need to do some spring cleaning on my Mac's harddrive before I install this puppy!


Yeah, me too. I'm also a little worried about running this on my 16GB MacBook Pro (Late 2013). I use an external 2 TB SSD, but still...


----------



## purple

ProfoundSilence said:


> How many pages did bbcso before jake bought bbcso?
> 
> Personally I'm waiting a bit.
> 
> I have CSS, CSSS, CSB so it's probably inevitable that one day I'll pick them up for fun, I do hate how upfront the mixed position is, bit I'd probably just take the hit in ram to use an extra mic or two


If it helps, I find the room and main mics sound about the same as far as "space" with this one. I think the room on sounds less harsh and use only that, the OH, and the close for now. It's about half a gig per instrument fully loaded with some being more and some less. So it ends up being the same size to me as most of CSS and CSB anyways. I really wish we had the mic mixdowns of SINE in these libraries!


----------



## CT

ProfoundSilence said:


> I have CSS, CSSS, CSB so it's probably inevitable that one day I'll pick them up for fun, I do hate how upfront the mixed position is, bit I'd probably just take the hit in ram to use an extra mic or two


Agreed about the mix. Overall the thing seems great of course, but after my ritual of forcing myself to sit down with what I already have and compare it to the latest shiny release, I'm pretty confident I won't take the plunge (into the Cinematic Studio Series in general) any time before next November. And by then who knows what else may be on the horizon.

I sure hope CSW is a joy for folks to use though. There's REALLY no excuse for anyone to eschew woodwinds now....


----------



## bigcatJC

Anyone still having incomplete downloads? I've been holding off and it's killing me...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

purple said:


> I really wish we had the mic mixdowns of SINE in these libraries!


yeah, coincidently - using the mixed mic of BWW legacy and it's ALSO too close for my taste - so I'm EQ'ing it to push it back.




Mike T said:


> after my ritual of forcing myself to sit down with what I already have



last thing I bought to try to dethrone the woods I was using was the full price of BBCSO, and it just crashes too much on my system to have a chance. That said, even though the tone is absolutely gorgeous - ultimately missed a lot of things I'm used to having with what I'm already using. Even if the player was updated and ended up being more stable I'd still be having a hard time making that decision. 

From the walkthroughs though - I did also pick up on some odd stereo shifting going on with the solo instruments. That said, I swear different articulations have a diffeerent stereo image with BWW legacy - drives me nuts! but when again, even playing guitar I was never able to sit still - luckily drums prevents me from going anywhere with my ass glued to the throne!


----------



## NoamL

Today's experiment... Attempting to put CSW into Abbey Road. What do y'all think?

1. CSW remixed
2. Live
3. CSW out of the box


----------



## VivianaSings

NoamL said:


> Today's experiment... Attempting to put CSW into Abbey Road. What do y'all think?
> 
> 1. CSW remixed
> 2. Live
> 3. CSW out of the box



I'm torn. The Abbey Road obscures a bit too much detail for my liking. CSW straight out of the box sounds a lot more detailed but a bit too forward for me. The live one though has massive dimension, like I can walk through the recording. Damn.


----------



## Gmetcalfe

muziksculp said:


> My Kontakt Library Browser looks nicer now


Nice, bue don't they need to be in score order?


----------



## NoamL

VivianaSings said:


> I'm torn. The Abbey Road obscures a bit too much detail for my liking. CSW straight out of the box sounds a lot more detailed but a bit too forward for me. The live one though has massive dimension, like I can walk through the recording. Damn.


yeah it's not easy to recreate! Do you play a wind instrument? I'm a cellist so it's hard to get the right perspective on how much detail is too much.

The live recording has so much AIR while still feeling like the instruments are in the center of the room not right in front.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

NoamL said:


> Today's experiment... Attempting to put CSW into Abbey Road. What do y'all think?
> 
> 1. CSW remixed
> 2. Live
> 3. CSW out of the box



Still has a boxy feel, although your remixed is better in that regards.

in comparison to the original recording two things stick out.
1.) a lot more breath/air noises in the original.
2.) in both your remixed and the CSW out of the box - both seem to be missing the bottom end warmth.

that said, I don't think that matters much, as unless it's a woodwind only section - you probably don't want that much low end in the bassoons - that would destroy a mix faster than you can say fantasia!

as far as the breath noise, again - that's more or less just a taste thing... sometimes it's overbearing - some libraries have this sound like someone making an elongated "f" noise over the sustain and it's next to impossible to EQ out without making it sound weirder.

edit: for clarity - It's a sound to be happy with, it's just different than the recording


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Gmetcalfe said:


> Nice, bue don't they need to be in score order?


I thought I was the only one who did this. 

this is how modern composers think scores work:
Strings(clearly most important)
Brass(A close 2nd)
Percussion(just behind the other two, orchestra complete!)
Synths(this adds depth, subtle but it helps)
Woodwinds(I don't know who these guys are, they just showed up to the session so we told them to improvise quietly in another booth but we'll probably not keep anything)


----------



## Duncan Krummel

So here's CSW with CSB, CSS/CSSS, and EW Hollywood Perc Diamond. I opted for common percussion that I'm assuming will be included in CSP. Just a guess.



I've also opted for a less hyped and more 'concert' sound than may often be used. I just hadn't heard anyone post an example with this approach yet. That said, there's more close mic than may be usually used here. It was a balance. Anyways, I'm very pleased with how cohesive everything is, though getting each section to play nicely with each other is a bit of a battle occasionally. I think that's more mixing than anything, so I'm looking forward to Alex's videos on the matter.

Feedback welcome!


----------



## Trash Panda

My wife once yelled at me for not putting my project in proper score order. Never made that mistake again.


----------



## axb312

NoamL said:


> Today's experiment... Attempting to put CSW into Abbey Road. What do y'all think?
> 
> 1. CSW remixed
> 2. Live
> 3. CSW out of the box



Feel like the live version has a little less stereo width compared to CSW out of the box.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Trash Panda said:


> My wife once yelled at me for not putting my project in proper score order. Never made that mistake again.


Grateful she kept you. 

I do one thing a little 'dirty' with my layout actually.. 


Choir
Winds
Brass
Pitched Percussion
Strings
Unpitched Percussion
whatever else(including drumsets and ethnic stuff)


----------



## Gmetcalfe

ProfoundSilence said:


> I thought I was the only one who did this.
> 
> this is how modern composers think scores work:
> Strings(clearly most important)
> Brass(A close 2nd)
> Percussion(just behind the other two, orchestra complete!)
> Synths(this adds depth, subtle but it helps)
> Woodwinds(I don't know who these guys are, they just showed up to the session so we told them to improvise quietly in another booth but we'll probably not keep anything)


That's what happens when you get your BA in Music Composition in the 80's!


----------



## VivianaSings

NoamL said:


> yeah it's not easy to recreate! Do you play a wind instrument? I'm a cellist so it's hard to get the right perspective on how much detail is too much.
> 
> The live recording has so much AIR while still feeling like the instruments are in the center of the room not right in front.


That's the thing - live recordings have so much air that's always hard to recreate. Sometimes I wonder if I'd have to do it the way Jerry Goldsmith used to record synths! He'd set them up in a theater, like an orchestra, with everyone in their own space with their own speaker, and mic it like an orchestra. I'd have to set up speakers on chairs and mic it! haha

No, I'm not a wind player but I'm the worst person to ask about detail because my fiancee is a full time flutist and so I'm all too intimately familiar with her flutes. I hear them constantly during practice, concerts, testing, etc. Especially her piccolo which she comes over my place to practice since I have a house and she has a condo so she's afraid of torturing her neighbors! But I have no concept of what's good detail because I hear the flute constantly from close by to in the audience. It's all kind of jumbled in my head lol. When I think of flute, all I hear in my head is breath noise, key noise, etc. because I'm usually sitting nearby while she practices.

The upside is because she's a flutist, unlike a lot of people I've come to love writing for woodwinds since I can get a full wind quintet at my house in like 20 minutes ready to play. I've come to find that wind players love getting together to play and on top of it, since wind players are a bit "snooty" (for lack of a better word lol) as long as I provide plenty of wine and cheese, they'll come run through all my stuff for free. 

But again, listening to a wind quintet run stuff in my living room gives me a very bad baseline for what sounds like a live recording because I'm used to sitting almost next to them while they play.


----------



## Gmetcalfe

Duncan Krummel said:


> So here's CSW with CSB, CSS/CSSS, and EW Hollywood Perc Diamond. I opted for common percussion that I'm assuming will be included in CSP. Just a guess.
> 
> 
> 
> I've also opted for a less hyped and more 'concert' sound than may often be used. I just hadn't heard anyone post an example with this approach yet. That said, there's more close mic than may be usually used here. It was a balance. Anyways, I'm very pleased with how cohesive everything is, though getting each section to play nicely with each other is a bit of a battle occasionally. I think that's more mixing than anything, so I'm looking forward to Alex's videos on the matter.
> 
> Feedback welcome!



Very nice writing. Some of the brass writing reminds me of the theme music from The Outer Limits by Dominic Frontiere (showing my age). Love the dense contrapuntal WW writing.


----------



## col

Duncan Krummel said:


> Feedback welcome!


Shit Hot !


----------



## holywilly

muziksculp said:


> Just buy CSW, don't ask too many questions  140 Pages, what do you think the fuss is all about if they were so/so woodwinds.


Wondering which libraries you DIDN’T buy?


----------



## CT

Duncan Krummel said:


> So here's CSW with CSB, CSS/CSSS, and EW Hollywood Perc Diamond. I opted for common percussion that I'm assuming will be included in CSP. Just a guess.
> 
> 
> 
> I've also opted for a less hyped and more 'concert' sound than may often be used. I just hadn't heard anyone post an example with this approach yet. That said, there's more close mic than may be usually used here. It was a balance. Anyways, I'm very pleased with how cohesive everything is, though getting each section to play nicely with each other is a bit of a battle occasionally. I think that's more mixing than anything, so I'm looking forward to Alex's videos on the matter.
> 
> Feedback welcome!



This is great writing.


----------



## ned3000

NoamL said:


> Today's experiment... Attempting to put CSW into Abbey Road. What do y'all think?
> 
> 1. CSW remixed
> 2. Live
> 3. CSW out of the box



Those both sound really good, but the "remixed" version definitely sounds nicer to me. Is that just different mic positions of CSW or additional mixing?

Also, just realizing that it's weird talking about CSW in terms of being a real thing that exists.


----------



## purple

NoamL said:


> Today's experiment... Attempting to put CSW into Abbey Road. What do y'all think?
> 
> 1. CSW remixed
> 2. Live
> 3. CSW out of the box



What did you do to the mix in the first? I like the transparency.


----------



## filipjonathan

Duncan Krummel said:


> So here's CSW with CSB, CSS/CSSS, and EW Hollywood Perc Diamond. I opted for common percussion that I'm assuming will be included in CSP. Just a guess.
> 
> 
> 
> I've also opted for a less hyped and more 'concert' sound than may often be used. I just hadn't heard anyone post an example with this approach yet. That said, there's more close mic than may be usually used here. It was a balance. Anyways, I'm very pleased with how cohesive everything is, though getting each section to play nicely with each other is a bit of a battle occasionally. I think that's more mixing than anything, so I'm looking forward to Alex's videos on the matter.
> 
> Feedback welcome!



Wow


----------



## Leequalizer

Hey i downloaded via the cinematic installer and it said install successfully. Its only 84.1 GB and it does not have a Documentation, Instruments folder nor a nihct file. How do i fix that? Cant add library...


----------



## N.Caffrey

Waiting for @ricoderks to impress everybody with a shiny piece!


----------



## NoamL

purple said:


> What did you do to the mix in the first? I like the transparency.


Close mic down a lot, adding a smiley-face EQ that cuts between 200 and 5k and boosts on either side, and a stage IR.

But now reconsidering, I think maybe the EQ was doing most of the work. When I add the close mic back in .... it brings back more of that AIR that is desperately needed and that was the #1 comment about the above remix.

It's like Alex knows what he is doing  and the out of the box mix is actually good or something!

I just wasn't used to hearing so much proximity on the woodwinds and my instinct was to push them back like the trumpets and low brass. But referencing some Shawn Murphy and Simon Rhodes mixes, that fluttery woodwind air is always there and comes from the close and overheads. I do think _the whole mix_ needs to pushed back a little into a larger cinematic space (if that's what you're aiming for like me), but you _cannot_ do that by turning down the closer mics, you lose too much detail....

The smile EQ isn't gospel either, but it worked comparing to the original recording of this ensemble woodwind excerpt. I want to check the same idea with some other woodwind excerpts recorded in Abbey or AIR. If the same sort of curve pops up then my "CSW processing bus" might be as simple as an EQ and an IR. But that curve could instead come from not nailing the dynamics of all the woodwinds in this excerpt, especially the bassoons seem a bit too loud now in mine vs the real thing?


----------



## I like music

Gingerbread said:


> Does anyone also have Infinite Woodwinds? Would love to hear a comparison between them and CSW.


If someone throws up a CSW MIDI they want compared, sure, I bet a few people might do this. I'm keen on hearing it too (and have Infinite) so if you had something I could spin out, let me know. I don't have a huge amount of time this week but really want to check a comparison.

*PS did someone imply that there was a vibrato crossfade in CSW?*


----------



## Waywyn

Apologies if I don't want to read through 141 pages, but the downloader is awfully slow here so that I used the manual links and downloaded the files one by one. I unzipped them and found out that these are the mics/samples only? So how to do I get the installer? Every time I am using the downloader and point it to the directory it starts downloading again. Anyone? Thanks!

PS: Ok, stumbled upon a previous post to contact them. Leaving this post here, in case someone experiences the same problem.


----------



## ryans

NoamL said:


> But referencing some Shawn Murphy and Simon Rhodes mixes, that fluttery woodwind air is always there and comes from the close and overheads.


Absolutely. That breathy flute just sitting above the strings is a detail I love in many John Williams/Shawn Murphy mixes.

That's why I think the mix mic in this library actually sounds like it would work fairly well (in a mix!), maybe with a little eq (the proximity effect might be a bit strong).


----------



## NoamL

I like music said:


> If someone throws up a CSW MIDI they want compared, sure, I bet a few people might do this. I'm keen on hearing it too (and have Infinite) so if you had something I could spin out, let me know. I don't have a huge amount of time this week but really want to check a comparison.
> 
> *PS did someone imply that there was a vibrato crossfade in CSW?*


Here's Anakin's Theme MIDI cleaned up for anyone who wants to give it a spin


----------



## Mitch Gardner

It's so nice hearing everyone's work on the last 10 pages or so, great work everyone! The welcoming comments for each others work is just amazing to see as well. Haven't been on VI Control for long but I can tell I'll be here for a while.
Looking forward to getting on CSW when I can clear my CC.


----------



## muk

The bar has been set very high by Cinematic Studio Series former releases. And it looks like the woodwinds live up to that standard. I haven't fully tested everything. But what I have used so far is impressive. I haven't found a sampled oboe or cor anglais that I really like. These ones here I do like. They have that beautiful elegiac tone. They can sing, or blend with the other instruments as needed. Very nice. The other instruments are beautiful too.

Other random things I noticed: quality control is spot on. As the other installments of the series, this library is very consistent.

Legato is phenomenal. Just load up the clarinet and play a legato phrase. It sounds better than any sampled woodwinds I have heard so far.

Vibrato works very well for me out of the box. It builds beautifully on long notes. On shorter notes it's unobtrusive. I really like that.

Dynamic crossfades can be quite audible, for examaple when reaching the top dynamic layer in the flute. You need to program around this in exposed passages. The chords in the beginning of the piece below are a real test for crossfades. CSW does actually ok here. It's in exposed, solistic passages that you need to be the most careful.

The timbres of these sampled instruments behave like they would in reality. The flute in its low register will be buried, unless it's played quite a bit louder than the other instruments. That's true in real orchestration, but I haven't found that in other woodwind sample libraries.


Here is a short ditty I am writing to test the library. It's for flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon (all from CSW), and french horn (Cinematic Studio Brass):









Woodwinds ditty WIP.mp3 | Powered by Box







app.box.com


----------



## I like music

muk said:


> . The flute in its low register will be buried, unless it's played quite a bit louder than the other instruments. That's true in real orchestration, but I haven't found that in other woodwind sample libraries


I don't have csw but from demos, but I noticed this! And yes, that's a bug I have with other libraries. Flute low range seems to get normalised a lot it seems (with other libs)


----------



## Tremendouz

Hmm, ReaTune (and my ear) claims that the flute is often around 15-20 cents sharp when using the louder dynamic layer(s). Is this something that's inevitable in real life?


----------



## Eptesicus

muk said:


> The timbres of these sampled instruments behave like they would in reality. The flute in its low register will be buried, unless it's played quite a bit louder than the other instruments. That's true in real orchestration, but I haven't found that in other woodwind sample libraries.



The delicacy and timbre of the low dynamics is what is standing out to me as well. 

A lot of woodwind libraries i have played mostly just sounds like the volume has been turn down for the low dynamics. These really seem to capture the quiet moments properly.


----------



## I like music

Duncan Krummel said:


> So here's CSW with CSB, CSS/CSSS, and EW Hollywood Perc Diamond. I opted for common percussion that I'm assuming will be included in CSP. Just a guess.
> 
> 
> 
> I've also opted for a less hyped and more 'concert' sound than may often be used. I just hadn't heard anyone post an example with this approach yet. That said, there's more close mic than may be usually used here. It was a balance. Anyways, I'm very pleased with how cohesive everything is, though getting each section to play nicely with each other is a bit of a battle occasionally. I think that's more mixing than anything, so I'm looking forward to Alex's videos on the matter.
> 
> Feedback welcome!



Going to stop talking for CSW for a moment (GASP) and just want to say, fucking hell, that's amazing music. I'd sell all my gear if it meant having the ability to write like that.

That was refreshing.


----------



## Tremendouz

Eptesicus said:


> The delicacy and timbre of the low dynamics is what is standing out to me as well.
> 
> A lot of woodwind libraries i have played mostly just sounds like the volume has been turn down for the low dynamics. These really seem to capture the quiet moments properly.


I suppose that's a compromise the others decided to make. In CSW the timbre changes a lot but that then introduces some trouble when crossfading between the dynamic layers.


----------



## I like music

NoamL said:


> Here's Anakin's Theme MIDI cleaned up for anyone who wants to give it a spin


Ah, thank you! Started a new job this week, so I hope I get a few moments to take it for a spin.


----------



## Eptesicus

Robert_G said:


> So it seems vibrato is 'on' or 'off'. I realize that libraries that transition to different vibrato speeds are more or less simulated. I'm interested in the developers decision to go 'on' or 'off'.
> 
> Thoughts?



It isnt on or off. It is definitely crossfaded to a degree (on cc2). It requires some delicacy in using it but it works (ie you can simulate going from non vibrato into a vibrato)


----------



## Living Fossil

Tremendouz said:


> Hmm, ReaTune (and my ear) claims that the flute is often around 15-20 cents sharp when using the louder dynamic layer(s). Is this something that's inevitable in real life?


No, it's not inevitable but it happens quite regularly. 
(Indeed, quite often when i double stuff [strings or other woods] by high flutes i fine tune them a bit sharp - 15-20 cents is about that area in many cases that sounds good.)
However, in my opinion it's always the best thing to have an exact tuning as default. So the user can decide on his/her own if he likes it or if he wants some deviations.


----------



## ehense

Sovereign said:


> The phasing occurs at specific crossfades between the layers. So with a little care, much of it is avoidable.


You're right, it is mostly the layer crossfading which is phasing. Quite obvious in the legato demo video. Probably only avoidable with physical modelling or dry samples. Great to hear much is avoidable!


----------



## Simon Ravn

This is one amazing collection of instruments! Wow, I am pretty floored already. This is the benchmark of woodwinds recording, musicality, programming and scripting that all other sample developers should be measured against! Are there flaws? Sure there are. E.g. some legato intervals sound too different from the sustain samples and there is a change in image+volume (e.g. the solo flute). Hopefully some of that can be fixed and some of it can be masked/avoided. But generally I am so impressed with what I hear.

Now, I am just looking forward to the brass getting the very needed dynamics programming update, and both brass + strings getting their hanging notes fixed update!


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Waywyn said:


> Apologies if I don't want to read through 141 pages, but the downloader is awfully slow here so that I used the manual links and downloaded the files one by one. I unzipped them and found out that these are the mics/samples only? So how to do I get the installer? Every time I am using the downloader and point it to the directory it starts downloading again. Anyone? Thanks!
> 
> PS: Ok, stumbled upon a previous post to contact them. Leaving this post here, in case someone experiences the same problem.


I decided to download the files from the manual links as well. After that, all it took for me is to group select all the zips and unpack. In Native Access, I entered the serial, went to the "uninstalled products" tab and pointed the Cinematic Studio Woodwinds entry to the location of my folder that contains the previously unzipped files. Works fine.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Alex W said:


> And of course an honourable mention has to go to Vladimir, who caused my heart to skip a beat when he posted his alarmingly accurate rendering of the CSW GUI - you even got the font right! I honestly almost fell off my chair, so er… thanks for that.


No problem. It was 100% random, but a pleasant and surprising coincidence for me. And since I guessed the color of the interface, I'm entitled to a reward?! I'm kidding. I'm glad you guys from the team are not exactly copied all the details with my photoshopped pics. My green color was terrible, really too bright and saturated, and some articulations were questionable.

I sincerely congratulate Alex and his team! Excellent library and great audio demos! The Best!


----------



## PhilipJohnston

For those wondering how well CSW might blend with other libraries - quick sketch that has 100% CSW as the winds, but a mix of sampled, modelled, dry and wet libraries for the rest.


----------



## I like music

PhilipJohnston said:


> For those wondering how well CSW might blend with other libraries - quick sketch that has 100% CSW as the winds, but a mix of sampled, modelled, dry and wet libraries for the rest.



I liked the general mix here, woods sound great. What else is this being mixed with (libraries?). BTW I'm assuming you intended to only have a 20-30 second long track. There seems to be 6 minutes or so of silence following that


----------



## PhilipJohnston

I like music said:


> I liked the general mix here, woods sound great. What else is this being mixed with (libraries?). BTW I'm assuming you intended to only have a 20-30 second long track. There seems to be 6 minutes or so of silence following that


*blush* yeah, that got a bit John Cage there for a few minutes. Reuploaded.


----------



## holywilly

How is CSW compared with VSL woodwinds in terms of playability?

I’ve been using VSL woodwinds for almost a decade, thinking of getting new woodwinds.


----------



## zazambor

Living Fossil said:


> No, it's not inevitable but it happens quite regularly.
> (Indeed, quite often when i double stuff [strings or other woods] by high flutes i fine tune them a bit sharp - 15-20 cents is about that area in many cases that sounds good.)
> However, in my opinion it's always the best thing to have an exact tuning as default. So the user can decide on his/her own if he likes it or if he wants some deviations.


There is quite interesting study about this octave stretching phenomena in an orchestral context: 



https://helda.helsinki.fi//bitstream/handle/10138/314748/Jaatinen_et_al_2019_J_Acoust_Soc_Am_final_draft.pdf?sequence=1



It seems that the also orchestral tuning should follow a specific curve, based on the instrument type:






I wonder if these kind of curves are already kind of built into CSW if it's tuned by ear (like it says in the manual)?


----------



## mojamusic

NoamL said:


> Today's experiment... Attempting to put CSW into Abbey Road. What do y'all think?
> 
> 1. CSW remixed
> 2. Live
> 3. CSW out of the box



This is fantastic!!! It's interesting because the Live room sound...even the low frequency noise that fills the space, adds so much depth. When you add noise to the samples it becomes to much, but are there any convolution reverbs or space designers that can introduce that kind of "noise" to a mix buss, so you can control it?


----------



## I like music

zazambor said:


> There is quite interesting study about this octave stretching phenomena in an orchestral context:
> 
> 
> 
> https://helda.helsinki.fi//bitstream/handle/10138/314748/Jaatinen_et_al_2019_J_Acoust_Soc_Am_final_draft.pdf?sequence=1
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that the also orchestral tuning should follow a specific curve, based on the instrument type:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if these kind of curves are already kind of built into CSW if it's tuned by ear (like it says in the manual)?


Looks very interesting.

Can I ask a rather silly question here, please? Cents here refers to % of the specific frequency? If I were to manually do this using the pitchbend CC, is there a rough guide on how one might approach that?


----------



## Rufus Loacker

I like music said:


> Looks very interesting.
> 
> Can I ask a rather silly question here, please? Cents here refers to % of the specific frequency? If I were to manually do this using the pitchbend CC, is there a rough guide on how one might approach that?


A cent is the hundreth part of a semitone


----------



## I like music

Rufus Loacker said:


> A cent is the hundreth part of a semitone


AH! Great, thank you so much. This means I can (on a library by library basis) work out what the pitchbend can stretch to, and therefore I can convert the PB values to Cents (e.g. Infinite series pitch bend allows you to use PB CC to bend 3 semitones, so I can figure it backwards from there)

My next question would be ... would it be fair to assume that in a _sampled_ sustain note, they'd be playing closer to 0 than lets say in a live environment, where they're playing actual musical phrases?


----------



## Stevie

Bluemount Score said:


> Just played with it for the first time. First impression is very good.
> 
> Favorites so far:
> - Solo Oboe (damn, that thing sings)
> - Bass Clarinet (try some short notes on this one... fantastic body and tone)
> 
> Very happy from what I heard yet. As someone said before, in some instruments (especially low Alto Flute) you can hear a tone shift between the mf and ff layer when crossfading, but it's not too bad. The dynamic range itself is the best from any of my woodwind libraries. Depends if you like that it fades to niente when the modwheel is all the way down (I do like that).
> The mix mic is somewhat too close for me, no problem though getting some distance with the room mic.
> It's a consistent, clean and very lively sounding library. No "ghost" samples or weird pitches / irregular timing offsets found yet.


I think those Crossfades could be improved by using AET in Kontakt. Not sure why not many devs use it.


----------



## NothingToHide

Stevie said:


> I think those Crossfades could be improved by using AET in Kontakt. Not sure why not many devs use it.


Isn't it pretty processor intensive? I suppose, the price would be that your CPU couldn't handle more than the WWs, if you applied AET to all of them ...

Also, I have tried crossfading with AET with some samples myself. The result was not always very natural sounding. But that may be, because I didn't try hard enough with the settings.


----------



## Stevie

NothingToHide said:


> Isn't it pretty processor intensive? I suppose, the price would be that your CPU couldn't handle more than the WWs, if you applied AET to all of them ...
> 
> Also, I have tried crossfading with AET with some samples myself. The result was not always very natural sounding. But that may be, because I didn't try hard enough with the settings.


I used to be like 10 years ago, when it was introduced. I don't think the impact is as noticable nowadays anymore.


----------



## NathanTiemeyer

Anybody else still having very slow download speeds? I'm averaging around 200 kb/s on the downloader! Tried the manual links too, getting similar speeds. Anyway, I'm sure it'll be sorted out and well worth the wait


----------



## filipjonathan

NathanTiemeyer said:


> Anybody else still having very slow download speeds? I'm averaging around 200 kb/s on the downloader! Tried the manual links too, getting similar speeds. Anyway, I'm sure it'll be sorted out and well worth the wait


Around 7MB/s here, with the downloader.


----------



## Go To 11

Bluemount Score said:


> Here is some CSW mixed with CSS in my first attempt to combine the two libraries. And now, I need some sleep.


Wow this is stunning!


----------



## Go To 11

Bluemount Score said:


> Here is some CSW mixed with CSS in my first attempt to combine the two libraries. And now, I need some sleep.


Is it cheeky to ask if you'd be willing to share the MIDI on this? This sounds is amazing.


----------



## I like music

Bluemount Score said:


> Here is some CSW mixed with CSS in my first attempt to combine the two libraries. And now, I need some sleep.


Aye, this is great!


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

wait... I've only just realised... Is it 3 individual solo instruments as well a section for each instrument? I thought it'd be just solo flue and flute a2, Solo Clarinet and Clarinet a2 etc...


----------



## I like music

NeonMediaKJT said:


> wait... I've only just realised... Is it 3 individual solo instruments as well a section for each instrument? I thought it'd be just solo flue and flute a2, Solo Clarinet and Clarinet a2 etc...


Solo flute and Flute a2
Clarinet and clarinet a2

... I think?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I like music said:


> Solo flute and Flute a2
> Clarinet and clarinet a2
> 
> ... I think?


in one of the videos he's using 3 patches, Clarinet 1, Clarinet 2 and Clarinet 3? I don't know.


----------



## Living Fossil

zazambor said:


> I wonder if these kind of curves are already kind of built into CSW if it's tuned by ear (like it says in the manual)?


One thing to keep in mind is that the desirable/tolerable deviations are quite different in a harmonic context than in a melodic one. While our brain accepts these deviations in melodic lines, you usually don't want to have them in chords. In a static (non vibr.) woodwind chord that expands over three octaves (e.g. played 3/3/3) it will be usually sufficient to detune 2 notes by around +/- 5 cents in order to prevent an organ-like sound, and depending on the context quite often there's no need to detune anything at all.
That's why samples that are too high can be problematic. A deviation of 20 cents has a massive impact on how a chord sounds, and mostly it's not in a desirable way...


----------



## Tremendouz

NeonMediaKJT said:


> in one of the videos he's using 3 patches, Clarinet 1, Clarinet 2 and Clarinet 3? I don't know.


That was 3 of the same solo patch as far as I know, they were playing a 3 part harmony


----------



## Casiquire

Gmetcalfe said:


> Nice, bue don't they need to be in score order?


Nah I order mine by frequency of use.


----------



## BassClef

Leequalizer said:


> Hey i downloaded via the cinematic installer and it said install successfully. Its only 84.1 GB and it does not have a Documentation, Instruments folder nor a nihct file. How do i fix that? Cant add library...I ha


I had the same problem and emailed CS tech support. In reply, Alex was aware that some people were having this problem. He connected my serial number to a different CS server and then had me re-download the library. Then it worked perfectly. GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE!


----------



## I like music

Living Fossil said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that the desirable/tolerable deviations are quite different in a harmonic context than in a melodic one. While our brain accepts these deviations in melodic lines, you usually don't want to have them in chords. In a static (non vibr.) woodwind chord that expands over three octaves (e.g. played 3/3/3) it will be usually sufficient to detune 2 notes by around +/- 5 cents in order to prevent an organ-like sound, and depending on the context quite often there's no need to detune anything at all.
> That's why samples that are too high can be problematic. A deviation of 20 cents has a massive impact on how a chord sounds, and mostly it's not in a desirable way...


I tried something with a melody-line where violins 1 and violins 2 were playing the melody in octaves. I detuned the higher violins up, and it sounded _much_ better to me. However, there may have been some confirmation bias here, because I'd heard someone say that they chatted to a pro player who said that in that specific context, the higher violins tended to play a tad sharp. I have no idea if true or not, or whether it is even supposed to sound better. But in that one specific context, my samples were twice as nice! 

I need to find and listen to that track again to see how it sounds a year on.


----------



## Tremendouz

Regarding the flute tuning issue/non-issue, it would be cool if the library actually responded to pitch wheel so you could manually compensate yourself (maybe an on/off switch in the GUI so people can avoid unwanted pitch changes when playing with a keyboard?)


----------



## CT

I like music said:


> I tried something with a melody-line where violins 1 and violins 2 were playing the melody in octaves. I detuned the higher violins up, and it sounded _much_ better to me. However, there may have been some confirmation bias here, because I'd heard someone say that they chatted to a pro player who said that in that specific context, the higher violins tended to play a tad sharp. I have no idea if true or not, or whether it is even supposed to sound better. But in that one specific context, my samples were twice as nice!
> 
> I need to find and listen to that track again to see how it sounds a year on.


With strings (and a few others), we have the added wrinkle of real players' ability and unconscious instinct to tune "naturally" with each other, which is I think a significant element missing from VI world since samples are obviously not recorded with any context. 

I really wish it were easier to implement adaptive tuning between multiple instrument tracks to bring in this additional layer of "life" to mock-ups.


----------



## Bluemount Score

I like music said:


> Aye, this is great!


Thank you!


Go To 11 said:


> Is it cheeky to ask if you'd be willing to share the MIDI on this? This sounds is amazing.


Thanks! For personal education, it's fine. I rarely export MIDI, so tell me if it works for you:









Dropbox - File Deleted


Dropbox is a free service that lets you bring your photos, docs, and videos anywhere and share them easily. Never email yourself a file again!




www.dropbox.com





Also keep in mind that I changed the mic positions quite a bit and CSS is using CSSS as first chairs. Also there is a bit of Seventh Heaven Studio A reverb applied.

I found these mic settings work well together (same as in the track):

CSSS first chairs:
-8.5dB Close
-24dB Main
-3.5dB Room

CSS:
-4.5 Close
-20dB Main
-3.5dB Room

CSW:
-12dB OH
-30dB Main
-2.5dB Room

Kontakt levels for all instruments at equally -6dB. Some slight mic adustments for individual instrument (e.g. basses pushed slightly further back). Feel free to experiment, this was just a first test on my site.


----------



## I like music

Mike T said:


> With strings (and a few others), we have the added wrinkle of real players' ability and unconscious instinct to tune "naturally" with each other, which is I think a significant element missing from VI world since samples are obviously not recorded with any context.
> 
> I really wish it were easier to implement adaptive tuning between multiple instrument tracks to bring in this additional layer of "life" to mock-ups.


Interesting. I wonder if some developer will come along, and incorporate separate analysis that someone has (surely) done in a music/university department, around some of the instinctive/contextual tuning you've described, with their own VIs.

Some sort of AI (I use that word very loosely because I don't really understand it) in this area would surely be interesting. Though I imagine it still wouldn't sound as good, since it would probably just be the developer bending the sample of the whole section and calling it something else entirely in their marketing, haha.


----------



## SirKen

purple said:


> Windows explorer says 98.5 GB. I hope I'm not missing any files.


Has this been addressed? I downloaded the files manually and Windows Explorer shows 98.5 on my end as well.


----------



## NothingToHide

NoamL said:


> Today's experiment... Attempting to put CSW into Abbey Road. What do y'all think?
> 
> 1. CSW remixed
> 2. Live
> 3. CSW out of the box





This has actually been posted here a few weeks back to show off BSS by OT. The Woodwinds intro seems to be BWW, so this is actually pretty good to compare both libraries.


----------



## CT

I like music said:


> Interesting. I wonder if some developer will come along, and incorporate separate analysis that someone has (surely) done in a music/university department, around some of the instinctive/contextual tuning you've described, with their own VIs.
> 
> Some sort of AI (I use that word very loosely because I don't really understand it) in this area would surely be interesting. Though I imagine it still wouldn't sound as good, since it would probably just be the developer bending the sample of the whole section and calling it something else entirely in their marketing, haha.


It's actually possible to a certain extent with scripts. A single instance of Kontakt for example can be told to tune whatever harmonies are played naturally. And most DAWs allow for project-wide tuning changes, whether set temperaments or adaptive natural (Hermode) tuning, but in Logic at least, this only affects the built-in Logic instruments, nothing third-party, so that's kinda useless.


----------



## Christof

I couldn't resist to rearrange an older piece of mine by adding CSW:


----------



## I like music

Mike T said:


> It's actually possible to a certain extent with scripts. A single instance of Kontakt for example can be told to tune whatever harmonies are played naturally. And most DAWs allow for project-wide tuning changes, whether set temperaments or adaptive natural (Hermode) tuning, but in Logic at least, this only affects the built-in Logic instruments, nothing third-party, so that's kinda useless.


Ohhhhh. I have Cubase. I think it has this though I never paid it any attention before today. Not sure if it can affect 3rd party plugins but certainly going to give it a shot and see what comes out of the other end. Thanks!


----------



## Symfoniq

filipjonathan said:


> Around 7MB/s here, with the downloader.


Yep, I'm getting between 7 and 12 MB/S.


----------



## I like music

Christof said:


> I couldn't resist to rearrange an older piece of mine by adding CSW:



"And old project of mine"????
It's the frickin' ROBBER, man. It is VI-Control royalty.


----------



## Symfoniq

filipjonathan said:


> On one hand, you need CSB and CSW. On the other hand, you need CSB and CSW. Simple 😄


One the one hand, you need CSS, CSSS, CSB, and CSW.

On the other hand, you have fingers. To play CSS, CSSS, CSB, and CSW.


----------



## philthevoid

SirKen said:


> Has this been addressed? I downloaded the files manually and Windows Explorer shows 98.5 on my end as well.


If you have 98.5GB you have the full thing. Read the number between the parentheses it should be something like (105 784 510 333 bytes) which is where CS take their 105GB number from.

It's the same with the other libraries. For example, it says 36.5GB for CSB on their website and sure enough, it reads this on the SSD: "33.9 GB (36 467 339 839 bytes)"


----------



## Soundbed

Anybody else not getting the legato on/off to change using keyswitch velocity?

Manual says, "Another example is the Legato key switch. Pressing it at a velocity of 0-64 switches them off, 65-127 switches them on."

For me, legato on/off does not change regardless of velocity differences when I press C0 to keyswitch to the "Sustain" articulation. If it was off it stays off, if it was on it stays on.

(I can use the keyswitch CC in the mean time.)


----------



## Pablocrespo

Christof said:


> I couldn't resist to rearrange an older piece of mine by adding CSW:



We were all waiting for this....it would be nice to hear just the woodwinds!


----------



## jim2b

BassClef said:


> I had the same problem and emailed CS tech support. In reply, Alex was aware that some people were having this problem. He connected my serial number to a different CS server and then had me re-download the library. Then it worked perfectly. GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE!


Same here. Great customer service, and a beautiful library.
Jim


----------



## rlundv

CSW:


Berlin:


Aaron Venture Infinite Woods+Brass


----------



## Soundbed

For CSW, would you recommend moving the first note of a Sustain 60 ms early? The manual only mentions shorts, which implies anything in the Staccato and Measured Rep arts.

In other words, if the track delay is already set to -60ms, would you move the first note of Sustain 60 ms "late"?

To my ear, the first note of a sustain sounds late if the midi begins exactly on the downbeat. And it sounds on time if it's also -60ms early (like the shorts). It makes me wonder why the manual and videos specify shorts only ... ?

Marcato also sounds "on time" to me when it's using the same -60 ms.

(I'm using the a2 patches to check the timing so far.)


----------



## rottoy

Is it just my faulty hearing, or were these woodwinds recorded at A442?
I had to give them a nudge of -0.06 cent to make them fit with my other wind libraries.


----------



## Christof

Pablocrespo said:


> We were all waiting for this....it would be nice to hear just the woodwinds!


Here you go, sounds a bit naked because the piece was written for strings, but you get the idea:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/41k61q5fu3hnz39/the robber_CSW.mp3?dl=0


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Soundbed said:


> For CSW, would you recommend moving the first note of a Sustain 60 ms early? The manual only mentions shorts, which implies anything in the Staccato and Measured Rep arts.
> 
> In other words, if the track delay is already set to -60ms, would you move the first note of Sustain 60 ms "late"?
> 
> To my ear, the first note of a sustain sounds late if the midi begins exactly on the downbeat. And it sounds on time if it's also -60ms early (like the shorts). It makes me wonder why the manual and videos specify shorts only ... ?
> 
> Marcato also sounds "on time" to me when it's using the same -60 ms.
> 
> (I'm using the a2 patches to check the timing so far.)



I do use a minimum of -60 ms delay correction for everything plus an extra if the articulation needs it (ie for the legatos, I use a macro in Cubase where it automatically sets the notes back by the amount specified in the manual minus 60ms as all cinematic studio tracks are already set to -60 ms in the track inspector in Cubase)
Hope that makes sense


----------



## Tremendouz

Soundbed said:


> Anybody else not getting the legato on/off to change using keyswitch velocity?
> 
> Manual says, "Another example is the Legato key switch. Pressing it at a velocity of 0-64 switches them off, 65-127 switches them on."
> 
> For me, legato on/off does not change regardless of velocity differences when I press C0 to keyswitch to the "Sustain" articulation. If it was off it stays off, if it was on it stays on.
> 
> (I can use the keyswitch CC in the mean time.)


You need to use a separate legato keyswitch (G#0? A0?) for that, not the sustain keyswitch. At least if it works similarly to the strings and brass.

Iirc the actual position of said keyswitch wasn't mentioned in the manual of the other libraries which was confusing (unless I missed something)


----------



## Soundbed

Tremendouz said:


> You need to use a separate legato keyswitch (G#0? A0?) for that, not the sustain keyswitch. At least if it works similarly to the strings and brass.
> 
> Iirc the actual position of said keyswitch wasn't mentioned in the manual of the other libraries which was confusing (unless I missed something)


Oh! I see, it's G#0 thank you!

You can see it / change it by shift clicking the Sustain articulation.


----------



## eqcollector

Slightly Off-topic:
Has anyone noticed that on the official video there are CSW Solo Clarinet 2 and CSW Solo Clarinet 3 as entirely separate patches inside Kontakt?
Am I missing something since in the download is only Clarinet Solo and 2 Clarinets patches?


Starts on 2:58


----------



## Soundbed

Giscard Rasquin said:


> I do use a minimum of -60 ms delay correction for everything plus an extra if the articulation needs it (ie for the legatos, I use a macro in Cubase where it automatically sets the notes back by the amount specified in the manual minus 60ms as all cinematic studio tracks are already set to -60 ms in the track inspector in Cubase)
> Hope that makes sense


Thanks for the confirmation, Giscard! I am working on a sort of "tutorial" type video, and want to make sure there is some consensus on this.


----------



## Kurosawa

It should be the same patch as the Solo Clarinet, just with with an added number. I think Alex did this for organisational reasons.


----------



## Simon Schrenk

eqcollector said:


> Slightly Off-topic:
> Has anyone noticed that on the official video there are CSW Solo Clarinet 2 and CSW Solo Clarinet 3 as entirely separate patches inside Kontakt?
> Am I missing something since in the download is only Clarinet Solo and 2 Clarinets patches?
> 
> 
> Starts on 2:58



I think he simply saved the instrument with a different name there...


----------



## eqcollector

Kurosawa said:


> It should be the same patch as the Solo Clarinet, just with with a added number. I think Alex did this for organisational reasons.





Simon Schrenk said:


> I think he simply saved the instrument with a different name there...


Makes sense, thank you!


----------



## shponglefan

SirKen said:


> Has this been addressed? I downloaded the files manually and Windows Explorer shows 98.5 on my end as well.



It has to do with how the file size is being represented.

In binary, a gigabyte is 1,073,741,824 bytes. But in base 10 units, a gigabyte is 1,000,000,000 bytes.

Depending on how the gigabyte is represented, the same amount of gigabytes may be presented as two different values.


----------



## Soundbed

ZeeCount said:


> I've been using it for about 4 hours now, and I am super impressed. As an oboist, the only other library I've found that I liked the sound of the oboe in was Berlin Woodwind Expansion B. So far the only thing it doesn't do particuarly well is super fast runs (AV wind is the only library I have that does that however), unless I'm misunderstanding how the marcato patches work.
> 
> By far the best thing about it is how consistent it is across all the instruments. It makes trying out different orchestrations a breaze.


If you have time, I'd be interested in hearing the very fast runs example, with AV vs CSW.


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Shouldn't the legato milliseconds delay times be the exact same as CSS and CSB? If not, wouldn't that break Alex's example in the video where he copies a CSS MIDI part into CSW with the implication it will just work as expected?


I think the section of the video you're mentioning was prefaced with a blurb that it is a "coming soon" feature for a new strings runs mode.






That said, I understand what you're saying about regular legatos across instruments, if a strings instrument has a 333ms legato transition and you want to quickly drag copy that to a ww having a 220 ms legato transition.


----------



## jamwerks

Haven't purchased yet, but listening to the Legato video, on several of the (Solo) instruments, it sounds like listening to two players, undoubtedly due to the crossfades. The Piccolo legato sounded particularly "phasey" in that sense.


----------



## Beans

jamwerks said:


> Haven't purchased yet, but listening to the Legato video, on several of the (Solo) instruments, it sounds like listening to two players, undoubtedly due to the crossfades. The Piccolo legato sounded particularly "phasey" in that sense.


Are there any sampled instrument libraries that have managed to completely avoid this for soloists?

For CSW, it's seeming easy enough to just avoid large dynamic shifts on the modwheel for a given sustain. There are some sweet spots at which you have a range that sounds as one player.

For some other libraries, I've found that it's difficult to find a *single* value at which there's not the effect of two players. As much as I love it, Jade struggles with this.

I'm willing to accept the former.


----------



## muk

Here is a track using all three installments of the Cinematic Studio Series. Strings are CSS and CSSS exclusively, Woodwinds are CSW exclusively, and Brass is 95% CSB. The percussion is bits and pieces from various libraries. I really like how the Cinematic Studio libraries come together. And they are a breeze to work with and mix:









Filmmusic Cinematic Studio Series.mp3 | Powered by Box







app.box.com


----------



## Erik

jamwerks said:


> Haven't purchased yet, but listening to the Legato video, on several of the (Solo) instruments, it sounds like listening to two players, undoubtedly due to the crossfades. The Piccolo legato sounded particularly "phasey" in that sense.


You're right


----------



## ridgero

muk said:


> Here is a track using all three installments of the Cinematic Studio Series. Strings are CSS and CSSS exclusively, Woodwinds are CSW exclusively, and Brass is 95% CSB. The percussion is bits and pieces from various libraries. I really like how the Cinematic Studio libraries come together. And they are a breeze to work with and mix:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Filmmusic Cinematic Studio Series.mp3 | Powered by Box
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> app.box.com


Brilliant work, thanks for sharing!


----------



## muk

ridgero said:


> Brilliant work, thanks for sharing!


Thanks for listening, and your kind words!


----------



## Living Fossil

Beans said:


> Are there any sampled instrument libraries that have managed to completely avoid this for soloists?


VSL Woodwinds are extraordinary in this aspect (and also in many others...). Personally i think for me it will be a great addition to VSL, but not a replacement. However, let's keep this thread about CSW...


----------



## CT

Living Fossil said:


> VSL Woodwinds are extraordinary in this aspect


Well they've only avoided it by defaulting to non-crossfading behavior. Once that's enabled, it's about as glaring as in any other libraries, though supposedly the Synchronized versions have lessened the effect.


----------



## jamwerks

For solo Woodwinds, it seem to be almost impossible to totally hide the doubled effect. CSW sounds pretty good over-all though. Definite buy!


----------



## Laddy

Soundbed said:


> I think the section of the video you're mentioning was prefaced with a blurb that it is a "coming soon" feature for a new strings runs mode.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That said, I understand what you're saying about regular legatos across instruments, if a strings instrument has a 333ms legato transition and you want to quickly drag copy that to a ww having a 220 ms legato transition.


If you deal with the delay in the track settings, that won't be a problem.


----------



## muk

The ones that avoid it are either modeled (SWAM Woodwinds, Aaron Venture). Or they have only one velocity layer, like Berlin Woodwinds Expansion Soloists. Or they are phase-aligned like Chris Hein. All of these methods have their own downsides in my opinion.


----------



## Living Fossil

Mike T said:


> Well they've only avoided it by defaulting to non-crossfading behavior. Once that's enabled, it's about as glaring as in any other libraries, though supposedly the Synchronized versions have lessened the effect.


That's only part of the story. The other part is that among VSL's excessive amounts of articulations there are lots of dynamic samples of different lenghts (1sec cresc/decresc, 2sec cresc/decresc, etc etc) which makes it usually unnecessary to crossfade in order to get dynamic movement. OTOH it's a library that comes with a learning curve. But the results can sound stellar, because a real crescendo simply sounds better than a crossfade.


----------



## jamwerks

muk said:


> The ones that avoid it are either modeled (SWAM Woodwinds, Aaron Venture). Or they have only one velocity layer, like Berlin Woodwinds Expansion Soloists. Or they are phase-aligned like Chris Hein. All of these methods have their own downsides in my opinion.


Pretty sure Aaron Venture are phase-aligned like Chris Hein. In a normal mix where the WW's aren't that exposed, the minimal phasing really isn't an issue imo.


----------



## erikradbo

Beans said:


> After a few hours with CSW and comparing it mostly to BWW, I'm quite happy to have quite a few of these CSW instruments but think BWW is still my best purchase for woodwinds. Once BWW is on SINE and I have Mic Merge, it'll be even better. It's possibly not a fair comparison, given the cost and size of BWW (not even taking into account CSW's loyalty pricing, BWW is almost twice the price of CSW).
> 
> This CSW oboe is freaking sweet (maybe my favorite oboe tone) and the shorts are absolutely killer, but it's not like it's truly perfect. I've found a few places in which it's not very agile compared to BWW.
> 
> There are many times, as expected, in which you have to watch your modwheel on soloists so you don't create the sound of two players. In those cases, I'm fine with having a narrow band to play with per note, and instead using expression to fake intensity. I'd actually almost rather the dynamics for solo longs work like the shorts, in which we could toggle between them instead of fading. Sort of like velocity is used in some libraries, but still using velocity here for legato speed. Or, swap it: velocity for intensity (or, uh, velocity) and modwheel for legato speed.
> 
> It's a lovely addition, especially, for the loyalty price. Holy cripes, it's a good deal. And, it's far easier to get running than BWW, given the familiar Cinematic Studio KS schema. There are also times in which the mics can feel more "present" in CSW. Almost VSL level of clarity, the lack thereof sometimes bugs me with BWW (not the expansions).
> 
> I don't have the VSL Synchron-ized Woodwinds, but my perception is that they're also still pretty damn hot. I've got the BBO woodwinds and the oboe that comes with Epic Orchestra 2, and they're all lovely. If I'm feeling dumb one day, I'll still pick those up.


Would you mind posting a few comparisons? I have BWW legacy which works great for ensemble work, but a little limited - obviously - in the solo parts. Have been looking at Exp B but maybe CSW would be my best bet.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

beyd770 said:


> CSW:
> 
> 
> Berlin:
> 
> 
> Aaron Venture Infinite Woods+Brass



Quite like CSW here. Infinite's demo doesn't sound great but could be due to the programming.


----------



## jamwerks

IINM, BWW has just 2 dynamic layers (3 for clarinets). CSW sounds to me like it has 3.


----------



## Bluemount Score

jamwerks said:


> CSW sounds to me like it has 3.


which it does!


----------



## stodesign12

Since lots of people already have it... Is it a good option as a primary woodwinds library? My only woodwinds right now are the ones from Abbey Road One, (just ensemble patches without legato sadly) but if I buy CSW right now I don't wanna feel that I should have bought one of the other big libraries (Berlin, Spitfire, VSL etc.) as a starting point, and also it seems that there are a few problems right now like the alto flute mics, tuning issues...? 
I need a detailed woodwind library with good playability and I think CSW is that library, I do have the loyalty discount, but I'm still not sure, any comments?


----------



## CT

stodesign12 said:


> Since lots of people already have it... Is it a good option as a primary woodwinds library? My only woodwinds right now are the ones from Abbey Road One, (just ensemble patches without legato sadly) but if I buy CSW right now I don't wanna feel that I should have bought one of the other big libraries (Berlin, Spitfire, VSL etc.) as a starting point, and also it seems that there are a few problems right now like the alto flute mics, tuning issues...?
> I need a detailed woodwind library with good playability and I think CSW is that library, I do have the loyalty discount, but I'm still not sure, any comments?


Well I don't have it, but as somebody who has too much of an encyclopedic familiarity with this crap, I'd say this is the new one to get if you're looking for a solid devoted woodwind library.


----------



## purple

SirKen said:


> Has this been addressed? I downloaded the files manually and Windows Explorer shows 98.5 on my end as well.


I haven't run into any issues with missing or broken samples yet... So maybe it's just a difference for window users? I don't know.


----------



## purple

beyd770 said:


> CSW:
> 
> 
> Berlin:
> 
> 
> Aaron Venture Infinite Woods+Brass



CSW takes the cake for me.

BWW seems to have a nice, transparent yet full tone, but the transitions between notes sound very bumpy and inconsistent compared to CSW.

IWW just sort of sounds "off". Not as transparent as BWW but the attacks and releases of notes sound very artificial and wooden.


----------



## Kurosawa

stodesign12 said:


> Since lots of people already have it... Is it a good option as a primary woodwinds library? My only woodwinds right now are the ones from Abbey Road One, (just ensemble patches without legato sadly) but if I buy CSW right now I don't wanna feel that I should have bought one of the other big libraries (Berlin, Spitfire, VSL etc.) as a starting point, and also it seems that there are a few problems right now like the alto flute mics, tuning issues...?
> I need a detailed woodwind library with good playability and I think CSW is that library, I do have the loyalty discount, but I'm still not sure, any comments?


I would suggest you to buy CSW now and buy some of the Berlin Woodwinds and its expansions a la carte, when it is available.


----------



## purple

NoamL said:


> Close mic down a lot, adding a smiley-face EQ that cuts between 200 and 5k and boosts on either side, and a stage IR.
> 
> But now reconsidering, I think maybe the EQ was doing most of the work. When I add the close mic back in .... it brings back more of that AIR that is desperately needed and that was the #1 comment about the above remix.
> 
> It's like Alex knows what he is doing  and the out of the box mix is actually good or something!
> 
> I just wasn't used to hearing so much proximity on the woodwinds and my instinct was to push them back like the trumpets and low brass. But referencing some Shawn Murphy and Simon Rhodes mixes, that fluttery woodwind air is always there and comes from the close and overheads. I do think _the whole mix_ needs to pushed back a little into a larger cinematic space (if that's what you're aiming for like me), but you _cannot_ do that by turning down the closer mics, you lose too much detail....
> 
> The smile EQ isn't gospel either, but it worked comparing to the original recording of this ensemble woodwind excerpt. I want to check the same idea with some other woodwind excerpts recorded in Abbey or AIR. If the same sort of curve pops up then my "CSW processing bus" might be as simple as an EQ and an IR. But that curve could instead come from not nailing the dynamics of all the woodwinds in this excerpt, especially the bassoons seem a bit too loud now in mine vs the real thing?


Yes, in my experimentation and listening to my mixes on various sound systems I am finding that I like more close mic and a little less OH than I originally started with. It seems that the OH builds up a lot of the mud and "in-your-face-ness" and EQ can fix this without losing that body. If I were to use these instruments as more exposed "solo" instruments I might bring the OH up more in those moments.


----------



## gohrev

Is it me or do the instruments load quite slow, when double-clicking one from the list in Kontakt?


----------



## Beans

berlin87 said:


> Is it me or do the instruments load quite slow, when double-clicking one from the list in Kontakt?


After a batch resave? They're pretty quick for me, on an external SSD.


----------



## rottoy

Now all I want for Christmas 2021/22 is a bass flute expansion to CSW. 💕


----------



## FireGS

beyd770 said:


> CSW:
> 
> 
> Berlin:
> 
> 
> Aaron Venture Infinite Woods+Brass



I dunno. IW sounds REALLY good here. I think the attacks could be better programmed, but the legatos have CSW beat - IMO. In terms on tone, CSW is pretty spot on, but IW isn't nearly as far off as people tend to make it out to be on here.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

FireGS said:


> I dunno. IW sounds REALLY good here. I think the attacks could be better programmed, but the legatos have CSW beat - IMO. In terms on tone, CSW is pretty spot on, but IW isn't nearly as far off as people tend to make it out to be on here.


It's the vibrato on the IW. It needs to be manually programmed in, imo.


----------



## FireGS

NeonMediaKJT said:


> It's the vibrato on the IW. It needs to be manually programmed in, imo.


On second listen, yeah, you're right. Both vibrato amount and rate needs to be done manually.


----------



## Pablocrespo

Christof said:


> Here you go, sounds a bit naked because the piece was written for strings, but you get the idea:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/41k61q5fu3hnz39/the robber_CSW.mp3?dl=0


Thanks, it sounds great though! great composition (not saying nothing new) and the winds alone can carry it fine!


----------



## Trash Panda

FireGS said:


> On second listen, yeah, you're right. Both vibrato amount and rate needs to be done manually.


Or you can wiggle the mod wheel to trigger the playable vibrato.


----------



## FireGS

Trash Panda said:


> Or you can wiggle the mod wheel to trigger the playable vibrato.


I've found that a little dubious with the Brass library, and I believe its still considered an experimental feature - the docs and AV still suggest to do it manually for best results, and I agree.


----------



## gohrev

Playing with the flutes and mic settings: Am I just that tonedeaf that I think the "mix" mic is perfectly fine? I do like the OH, with the lower WWs it makes them "float" a bit more, if you catch my drift.


----------



## purple

berlin87 said:


> Playing with the flutes and mic settings: Am I just that tonedeaf that I think the "mix" mic is perfectly fine? I do like the OH, with the lower WWs it makes them "float" a bit more, if you catch my drift.


It's a matter of taste. I feel the default mix sounds a bit too close and upfront for my taste.


----------



## gohrev

purple said:


> It's a matter of taste. I feel the default mix sounds a bit too close and upfront for my taste.


Yes, I think I am starting to hear what you mean. The "Room" mic, however, sounds a tad too spread out to me.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Mike T said:


> With strings (and a few others), we have the added wrinkle of real players' ability and unconscious instinct to tune "naturally" with each other, which is I think a significant element missing from VI world since samples are obviously not recorded with any context.
> 
> I really wish it were easier to implement adaptive tuning between multiple instrument tracks to bring in this additional layer of "life" to mock-ups.


100% agree. Don't understand why this hasn't been implemented by the developers.

Audiobro has a good approach with their divisi concept, but their tuning scripts are static. That's why I love the humanizing/tuning curves in Vienna Instruments Pro. In my opinion, they are very good, because they aren't static, they adapt/evolve over time, like real players do. Don't know any other sample player which does this.


----------



## Jack Weaver

I guess this isn't a good time to download. I've tried twice and it has said that it was installed - only to find out that I've got just 56GB in a Sample folder and nothing else. 

Since I haven't read a lot of this thread, are other people having a problem like this?

Thanks.

.


----------



## CT

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> 100% agree. Don't understand why this hasn't been implemented by the developers.
> 
> Audiobro has a good approach with their divisi concept, but their tuning scripts are static. That's why I love the humanizing/tuning curves in Vienna Instruments Pro. In my opinion, they are very good, because they aren't static, they adapt/evolve over time, like real players do. Don't know any other sample player which does this.


My makeshift solution has been to take advantage of static microtuning possibilities by using temperaments that are well-suited to the key(s) in question, just to get a little bit more of a sense of "pure" tuning.

But I feel like it shouldn't be radically difficult to get a DAW as a whole, or plugins on every channel which can all talk to each other, to look at the incoming MIDI, weigh the pitches against each other, and adjust the tuning knob that every sampler has accordingly. I don't really know enough about the scripting involved to be sure that it is possible, but it doesn't seem too crazy.


----------



## filipjonathan

Jack Weaver said:


> I guess this isn't a good time to download. I've tried twice and it has said that it was installed - only to find out that I've got just 56GB in a Sample folder and nothing else.
> 
> Since I haven't read a lot of this thread, are other people having a problem like this?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> .


I had zero problems. Their installer downloaded and installed everything and it works perfectly. Are you on Windows? Cause I'm on a Mac. That might have something to do with it.


----------



## jimjazzuk

Had anyone made a mega Logic Pro X template with all the Cinematic Studio Series libraries?


----------



## gohrev

-11.5db OH
-0.00db Room

seems to add enough bite without being too "in your face", but the Room mic adds a lot of Right channel to the mix.


----------



## Jack Weaver

filipjonathan said:


> I had zero problems. Their installer downloaded and installed everything and it works perfectly. Are you on Windows? Cause I'm on a Mac. That might have something to do with it.


2019 Mac Pro Catalina 

.


----------



## MA-Simon

It sounds like there are multible same note legato repetitions! ❤️


----------



## Michael Stibor

Robert_G said:


> It's unbelievable how fast my Spitfire Studio Woodwinds hit the trash. I can't imagine ever using them again....not that I used them much anyways.
> Thank goodness I bought them at a 40% off sale.


You went from the worst, to the new “best”.


----------



## filipjonathan

Jack Weaver said:


> 2019 Mac Pro Catalina
> 
> .


No idea then, sorry. I'm still on Mojave but I doubt that has anything to do with it.


----------



## Eptesicus

purple said:


> CSW takes the cake for me.
> 
> BWW seems to have a nice, transparent yet full tone, but the transitions between notes sound very bumpy and inconsistent compared to CSW.
> 
> IWW just sort of sounds "off". Not as transparent as BWW but the attacks and releases of notes sound very artificial and wooden.



The legato and lyrical expression in csw, is , as expected extremely good.

You can play it without moving the modwheel or any parameters and it will still sound good/realistic. I've yet to come across a bumpy/odd transition yet too.


----------



## Soundbed

Laddy said:


> If you deal with the delay in the track settings, that won't be a problem.


Can you explain what you mean?

I understand what you're saying about regular legatos across instruments, if a strings instrument has a 333ms legato transition and you want to quickly drag copy that to a ww having a 220 ms legato transition.

Both CSS and CSW have the same track predelay.

Yet CSS and CSW have different legato transition speeds for fast medium and slow. So, using Sustains Advanced Legato, you can not simply copy and paste the same midi timings from strings to woodwinds.

Or are you talking about "track settings" being a complex script/tool like Logical Editor or CSS Control Panel?


----------



## Laddy

Soundbed said:


> Can you explain what you mean?
> 
> I understand what you're saying about regular legatos across instruments, if a strings instrument has a 333ms legato transition and you want to quickly drag copy that to a ww having a 220 ms legato transition.
> 
> Both CSS and CSW have the same track predelay.
> 
> Yet CSS and CSW have different legato transition speeds for fast medium and slow. So, using Sustains Advanced Legato, you can not simply copy and paste the same midi timings from strings to woodwinds.
> 
> Or are you talking about "track settings" being a complex script/tool like Logical Editor or CSS Control Panel?


I use Cubase, and you can offset the timing in the track settings. So you could offset one track 220ms and another track 330ms. The midi would be programmed on the beat. But if you need different offsets on the same track, it becomes more complicated.

Hope that was clear enough, a bit late here and on my phone


----------



## Gerbil

Christof said:


> I couldn't resist to rearrange an older piece of mine by adding CSW:



I can't believe I haven't heard this piece before. Excellent. Gave me a big smile.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

FireGS said:


> I dunno. IW sounds REALLY good here. I think the attacks could be better programmed, but the legatos have CSW beat - IMO. In terms on tone, CSW is pretty spot on, but IW isn't nearly as far off as people tend to make it out to be on here.


Yeah I don't think that example does IW any favors in terms of programming.

Would be great to hear CSW's take on Rite of Spring for example and compare that to IW's demo here (MIDI file included https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-woodwinds-rite-of-spring)


----------



## Soundbed

Laddy said:


> I use Cubase, and you can offset the timing in the track settings. So you could offset one track 220ms and another track 330ms. The midi would be programmed on the beat. But if you need different offsets on the same track, it becomes more complicated.
> 
> Hope that was clear enough, a bit late here and on my phone


They both use track offset of -60ms.

The 333ms (CSS) or 220ms (CSW) values would only apply to the slowest legato transitions; meaning, only specific notes.

But actually if your track is already offset by -60, I think the slowest CSW legato notes only need -160ms (from the quantized grid, where they would have started) to sound "on time".

Then the medium legato transition notes would need not full 130 but (130-60)=70ms predelay from the grid.

And the fastest legato transition notes need (90-60)=30ms predelay from the grid.

Get some rest,
Cheers!


----------



## Soundbed

Many of you already understand most of what's in this video, so if there's any mistakes please let me know?

I'm hoping it helps those newer to the Cinematic Studio family of products.

It specifically looks at the legato timing of CSW for the Sustain and the Marcato patches.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Wait - wasn't there supposed to be a full ensemble patch? I'm missing that one, didn't even realize it before


----------



## ansthenia

Bluemount Score said:


> Wait - wasn't there supposed to be a full ensemble patch? I'm missing that one, didn't even realize it before


Coming in a later update


----------



## Gmetcalfe

rottoy said:


> Now all I want for Christmas 2021/22 is a bass flute expansion to CSW. 💕


And Contrabass Clarinet!


----------



## purple

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Yeah I don't think that example does IW any favors in terms of programming.
> 
> Would be great to hear CSW's take on Rite of Spring for example and compare that to IW's demo here (MIDI file included https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-woodwinds-rite-of-spring)


My prediction is it'd so better than IW especially on transitions. I might give it a shot. A piece like that will take some time to program though, even if many of the phrases are live playable. One of the first things I did after downloading was noodle with the bassoon and it did an OK job on the solo then. Wish I had recorded it.


----------



## toddkreuz

can anybody else confirm 2 Bassoons patch is not working? Only loads 2 megs into memory.
The trills are there, but all other articulations are not loading.


----------



## Casiquire

beyd770 said:


> CSW:
> 
> 
> Berlin:
> 
> 
> Aaron Venture Infinite Woods+Brass



IW sounds like an organ here. CSW sounds best as far as expression but i think BWW can be made to sound better too. It sounds kind of mushy here, is the best way to describe it


----------



## col

toddkreuz said:


> can anybody else confirm 2 Bassoons patch is not working?


Is working ok here - all artics.


----------



## RMH

muziksculp said:


> My Kontakt Library Browser looks nicer now


You are the true collector of the Cs series. I have a lot of products, but I haven't collected them all yet. There are piano, cs2, percussion instruments left. May it be completed in the future.


----------



## Gmetcalfe

Bluemount Score said:


> Maybe that's why the library size isn't exactly 105GB
> 
> missing Alto Flute samples


Same here although my total folder size is 105.78GB. The "mix" mic position is there but the other mic positions seem to be missing. However, I'm not getting any kind of "missing samples" warning when I go to load up the other mic positions.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jamwerks said:


> IINM, BWW has just 2 dynamic layers (3 for clarinets). CSW sounds to me like it has 3.


BWW legacy had 3 dynamic layers, it's the revive instruments that ended up being too. 

All the legacy instruments kept in revive are still the full 3 dynamic layers


----------



## toddkreuz

col said:


> Is working ok here - all artics.


Emailed support, they sent me another copy of the instruments folder, and that's got it. Thanks!


----------



## JEPA

Soundbed said:


> Many of you already understand most of what's in this video, so if there's any mistakes please let me know?
> 
> I'm hoping it helps those newer to the Cinematic Studio family of products.
> 
> It specifically looks at the legato timing of CSW for the Sustain and the Marcato patches.



I don’t have any of the CS series, but it seems these are libraries for after performing a MIDI recording and then replacing your MIDI recording with them and then doing editing... is that the way you work with them guys?


----------



## purple

JEPA said:


> I don’t have any of the CS series, but it seems these are libraries for after performing a MIDI recording and then replacing your MIDI recording with them and then doing editing... is that the way you work with them guys?


Not sure I understand the question. I mean there's always tweaking to be done, and how much tweaking depends on how realistic you want it and how much time you have/want to spend on it. But mostly I play stuff in with CS series. It's very playable once you learn the legato delay, which doesn't take long. These libraries are wayyy more playable than the hollywood series for me due to the consistency of them.


----------



## purple

JEPA said:


> I don’t have any of the CS series, but it seems these are libraries for after performing a MIDI recording and then replacing your MIDI recording with them and then doing editing... is that the way you work with them guys?


Also want to add that I think CSW is even more playable than CSS and CSB.


----------



## Christof

I just noticed that CSW have been recorded slightly higher than the other Cinematic libraries, probably 442 or 443 Hz.
The keyswitches don't react instantly as well, some tweaking is necessary to trigger the articulations, something I also noticed in CSB.
Solo oboe and solo clarinet have some phasing on some legato notes.
And the hanging note issue remains with this library as well, at least in Logic 10.
But so far this is a great product, let's hope for some fixes and improvements soon.


----------



## Sovereign

Christof said:


> I just noticed that CSW have been recorded slightly higher than the other Cinematic libraries, probably 442 or 443 Hz.
> The keyswitches don't react instantly as well, some tweaking is necessary to trigger the articulations, something I also noticed in CSB.
> Solo oboe and solo clarinet have some phasing on some legato notes.
> And the hanging note issue remains with this library as well, at least in Logic 10.
> But so far this is a great product, let's hope for some fixes and improvements soon.


Keyswitches react instantaneously here, I'm on Kontakt 6.3.1 though and haven't upgraded in a while. Hanging notes for me are rare. Also on Logic X (10.5.1).


----------



## Denkii

Christof said:


> The keyswitches don't react instantly as well, some tweaking is necessary to trigger the articulations, something I also noticed in CSB.


Can you explain what you mean?


----------



## Christof

Denkii said:


> Can you explain what you mean?


Sometimes articulations won't switch from one to another when I trigger them via keyswitches or cc1 in the piano roll.


----------



## neblix

Wrote a short little 2 hour composition playing with CSW. These are all Close mics and my own reverb. SCS is doing background chord work, and the harp is from BBC SO.


----------



## NothingToHide

Christof said:


> Sometimes articulations won't switch from one to another when I trigger them via keyswitches or cc1 in the piano roll.


Do you mean, you get the wrong short notes after switching from a sustain or legato? That might be due to CC 1 data on your track after the keyswitch that changes the articulation. For that reason, I would prefer a dedicated CC for note selection ... next to some other wishes I mentioned in a separate thread!


----------



## Christof

NothingToHide said:


> Do you mean, you get the wrong short notes after switching from a sustain or legato? That might be due to CC 1 data on your track after the keyswitch that changes the articulation. For that reason, I would prefer a dedicated CC for note selection ... next to some other wishes I mentioned in a separate thread!


This might be the issue!
CC1 controls dynamics AND the short articulations (from spiccato to sfz).
Is there a way to disable cc1 from the shorts?
So only for dynamics?
EDIT:
Just right clicked in Kontakt and removed cc1 from the shorts.


----------



## rottoy

Christof said:


> I just noticed that CSW have been recorded slightly higher than the other Cinematic libraries, probably 442 or 443 Hz.


I'm glad I'm not the only one to have noticed this.
I wrote about this some pages ago with no replies and thought my hearing was going.


----------



## Christof

Always trust your ears!


----------



## NothingToHide

Christof said:


> This might be the issue!
> CC1 controls dynamics AND the short articulations (from spiccato to sfz).
> Is there a way to disable cc1 from the shorts?
> So only for dynamics?
> EDIT:
> Just right clicked in Kontakt and removed cc1 from the shorts.


I stumbled over this several times ... and: No! There is no way of setting up a separate cc for articulations. You can just change dynamics, but then you cannot control dynamics with the modulation wheel per standard. I made a little wishlist for an updated CS engine. If you want to chime in and make your remarks:






How much do you use the GUI while writing?


I just posted kind of the same question in the CSW thread, but due to the frequency of people posting there it is probably going to be overlooked. Also, it is a very general question I am curious about. There are obviously many different workflows composing with samples and DAW. Here, I am only...




vi-control.net


----------



## NothingToHide

Christof said:


> Always trust your ears!


Exactly, I also noticed some tuning problems in the Anakin theme Noam posted in this thread. Berlin sounded better in that regard.


----------



## NothingToHide

Christof said:


> EDIT:
> Just right clicked in Kontakt and removed cc1 from the shorts.


How did you do that?


----------



## Tremendouz

rottoy said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one to have noticed this.
> I wrote about this some pages ago with no replies and thought my hearing was going.


I might have missed that but I did notice (and mention) the flute being up to 20-25 cents sharp when playing ff.

I'm actually considering using melodyne but it adds some random artifacts.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Doing a run through of CSW!!

Come join <3


----------



## purple

Christof said:


> This might be the issue!
> CC1 controls dynamics AND the short articulations (from spiccato to sfz).
> Is there a way to disable cc1 from the shorts?
> So only for dynamics?
> EDIT:
> Just right clicked in Kontakt and removed cc1 from the shorts.


Yes I changed the CC used for switching shorts and also use a separate track for shorts and for longs so that it's a lot easier to manage keyswitches.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Doing a run through of CSW!!
> 
> Come join <3



at work hoe


----------



## Christof

NothingToHide said:


> I stumbled over this several times ... and: No! There is no way of setting up a separate cc for articulations. You can just change dynamics, but then you cannot control dynamics with the modulation wheel per standard. I made a little wishlist for an updated CS engine. If you want to chime in and make your remarks:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much do you use the GUI while writing?
> 
> 
> I just posted kind of the same question in the CSW thread, but due to the frequency of people posting there it is probably going to be overlooked. Also, it is a very general question I am curious about. There are obviously many different workflows composing with samples and DAW. Here, I am only...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


I just managed to assign cc45 to the articulation wheel, so it works.
Is that what you meant?


----------



## eli0s

NothingToHide said:


> There is no way of setting up a separate cc for articulations





Christof said:


> I just managed to assign cc45 to the articulation wheel, so it works.


You can already use CC58 to change articulations. You also can change this CC within the settings of each instrument.




Also, as Christof has mentioned, when the staccato articulation is selected, right clicking on the wheel offers the option to remove the current CC1 and/or add any new CC.




Finally, if you use key-switches to change articulations, these are velocity sesitive, meaning that hitting the F0 at 0 velocity will pick the "Repetitions" articulation, hitting F0 at 127 velocity will pick the "Sfz" articulation and between those velocities (don't remember exact values) you will be able to pick the "staccatissimo" and "Staccato" articulations.


----------



## Erik

Herewith the Anakims Theme, made with the old school Sonivox woodwinds (!) . Eager to hear your findings when comparing this one with some other versions (CSW, OT, live) here, when it comes down to sound and expression of these winds. Enjoy!


----------



## rottoy

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but give that tuning knob a nudge thusly if you want CSW to fit with the rest of your libraries recorded at 440 hz.


----------



## Bluemount Score

rottoy said:


> Forgive me for stating the obvious, but give that tuning knob a nudgle thusly if you want CSW to fit with the rest of your libraries recorded at 440 hz.


Is -0.06 the right amount, you would say?


----------



## VivianaSings

rottoy said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one to have noticed this.
> I wrote about this some pages ago with no replies and thought my hearing was going.


I'm happy you just tagged yourself because I was about to dig through the pages of past posts to find it to reply to, to say that I noticed it was sharp and if I push the tuning down to -.06, it's fine and that it's probably 442hz. But I figured I'd tag you so that you wouldn't think no one noticed your post!


----------



## rottoy

Bluemount Score said:


> Is -0.06 the right amount, you would say?


To my ears, yes. I might be wrong.


----------



## Kevinside

For me, the question would be then. Why are the samples of csw at 442hz... I mean, thats strange...


----------



## Bluemount Score

rottoy said:


> To my ears, yes. I might be wrong.


Thanks. And you did notice it on all the wind instruments?


----------



## NothingToHide

Christof said:


> I just managed to assign cc45 to the articulation wheel, so it works.
> Is that what you meant?


Thanks! I missed that because some of the CCs cannot be changed by right-clicking. So, that is off the list.


----------



## rottoy

Bluemount Score said:


> Thanks. And you did notice it on all the wind instruments?


As far as I could tell.


----------



## jamwerks

Just listened to the @SimonCharlesHanna play-through, and overall it sounds like an awesome library!


----------



## Tremendouz

Bluemount Score said:


> Is -0.06 the right amount, you would say?


Weirdly enough I even needed -0.10 to make flute ff layer be in tune but alto flute didn't need any correction...


----------



## stodesign12

Cinewinds is on sale at the moment, how does it compare with CSW?


----------



## Bluemount Score

Tremendouz said:


> Weirdly enough I even needed -0.10 to make flute ff layer be in tune but alto flute didn't need any correction...


Hm, eventually I should check it out myself


----------



## Beans

stodesign12 said:


> Cinewinds is on sale at the moment, how does it compare with CSW?


While they're not comparison videos for CSW, Christopher Siu and Anne-Kathrin Dern have some helpful content on YouTube about CineWinds.

As someone who considered a CineWinds purchase a while back, it seems that even people who favor CineBrass and CinePerc don't typically reach for CineWinds as a primary library, often favoring Berlin Woodwinds. I couldn't say they're bad, just that there often seemed to be a favored alternative.

EDIT: With that said, I do recall seeing a Dirk Ehlert livestream in which he used only Cinesamples for a piece. Jeff Gibbons has a "two-hour composing challenge," too, in which he only used Cinesamples. Both on YouTube.


----------



## Scamper

I finally got my hands on CSW as well and I love it.

It sounds really amazing and sweet all around, is super musical and controls well as the rest of the Cinematic Studio Series. Feels like I've been using it for years. I especially love the marcato patch - super lively, easy to play and very flexible.
My woodwind needs are certainly covered with CSW alone, but it would be nice to have alternative solo instruments for divisi, so I can imagine other libraries would supplement it well.

I've got some hanging notes here and there (which I didn't have with CSS/CSB) and at times I wished for more than 3 dynamic layers, but it's still a huge amount of content.


I took a test drive with some Hisaishi.
There are first more exposed section duets and the woodwind tutti in the end.
A version with just the Mix mics, Mix mics + reverb and Room+OH. Mix alone sounds a tad close to me, but Room+OH is my favorite combination so far for a wider sound with both detail and room. The OH mic is a fantastic addition and sounds great on its own.

It was very well worth the wait.




stodesign12 said:


> Cinewinds is on sale at the moment, how does it compare with CSW?


I've been using VSL SE Woodwinds along with Cinewinds Core before and I think CSW is far beyond both. Cinewinds doesn't sound bad, but I'm not a fan of the Clarinet, Oboe and there are some other annoying frequencies in some instruments. While Cinewinds has also legato and multiple shorts, CSW is so much more lively and it's a lot easier to put in a dynamic performance.

Unless you REALLY prefer the sound of Cinewinds for some reason, I don't think there's much of a reason to go for it and CSW also has a lot more content (compared to Core).


----------



## rottoy

My favourites are definitely the Mix and the OH mics.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

from the little I caught of it, I would start with OH and then blend the room in to taste. 

That seemed like my ideal mixture.


----------



## Christof

rottoy said:


> Forgive me for stating the obvious, but give that tuning knob a nudge thusly if you want CSW to fit with the rest of your libraries recorded at 440 hz.


Tweaking this knob is quite painful because you have to enter numeric data, just turning the knob up or down changes half tone steps.Why can't they add a continuous knob into Kontakt?
I hope they fix the tuning issues soon, especially the solo flute.


----------



## Christof

Christof said:


> Tweaking this knob is quite painful because you have to enter numeric data, just turning the knob up or down changes half tone steps.Why can't they add a continuous knob into Kontakt?
> I hope they fix the tuning issues soon, especially the solo flute.


Found it:


----------



## rottoy

Christof said:


> Tweaking this knob is quite painful because you have to enter numeric data, just turning the knob up or down changes half tone steps.Why can't they add a continuous knob into Kontakt?
> I hope they fix the tuning issues soon, especially the solo flute.


You are correct, 
I should have mentioned putting in numeric data rather than nudging the knob. 
It's pretty much impossible to do the latter.


----------



## Tremendouz

Christof said:


> Tweaking this knob is quite painful because you have to enter numeric data, just turning the knob up or down changes half tone steps.


Hold shift while dragging


----------



## Bluemount Score

Tremendouz said:


> Hold shift while dragging


Applies for other Kontakt parameters too btw!


----------



## NoamL

If CSW can measure up to Berlin Woodwinds Revive that's pretty good.... since BWR costs 2.8 times as much.  An exposed woodwind ensemble with 3 bassoon parts played by 3 copies of the same instrument should be a pretty good test case for the idea that Berlin gives you more value by having a 2nd & 3rd chair for each instrument. Except that doesn't bug me in the CSW example compared to BWR. I do like the Berlin demo (the winds part). Berlin is one of the best woodwind VIs available.

On the other hand, a big "yep" to the tuning issue on the flute & flutes a2. They get up to 20 cents sharp as you go higher in pitch and dynamics.


----------



## Bluemount Score

NoamL said:


> On the other hand, a big "yep" to the tuning issue on the flute & flutes a2. They get up to 20 cents sharp as you go higher in pitch and dynamics.


Maybe, if Alex is aware of this, this could be fixed in a future update. I don't like the workarround either


----------



## Tremendouz

So, what do you people think of the whole crossfading between the dynamic layers approach? As much as I like CSW so far, I have to say that unlike with the strings and brass, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells when riding the modwheel because more often than not I get some phasing ("2 players effect"), a volume bump or a timbre (and even pitch) change that's quite noticeable.

Meanwhile I've been playing around with Embertone's Popelka Bassoon which seems to have two dynamic layers for the legatos (mf and ff) but if I'm not mistaken, you can't crossfade between them so if the modwheel is high enough before the legato transition, you'll get the ff sample which you can then fade to silence (depending on how you set the dynamic range knob). This approach (and the emulated vibrato) leads to practically no phasing but it also leads to a situation where the timbre remains the same while riding the modwheel.

I made a short and rough and silly legato comparison with some dynamic movement to demonstrate the difference. The tone of the instruments is quite different as well as the way they are miced so direct comparison is hard but here it is.


----------



## Michael Stibor

So you know that hoe they say a watched kettle never boils?

Well I’d been watching that kettle daily for the last two years, but decided to leave it for a few days. Then the the kettle boiled and I didn’t get the notification email since it went to an email account I rarely used! Argh!

Anyway, downloaded it yesterday. It’s amazing. I’m going to go ahead and say that CSW is on par with CSS as far as quality and musicality.

The only “Con” I can really think of is that I hear some noise buildup in some high registers. It’s to be expected of course. But it’s a jarring shift from one silent note to a much noisier note right next to it.

There is that phasing issue on a few notes that people mentioned as well. In the context of a full mix, I doubt anyone would hear it, but it is there.

But otherwise I’m extremely satisfied with it. I’ve already started replacing some stuff with VSL SE I did on my most recent piece with CSW and the difference is enormous. Not to slag VSL though. It’s still a great program. But I’ll probably never use it again.

Oh and those overheads are perfect. So far it’s all I’ve been using. For those that mentioned that it sounds too upfront, there are plenty of mix options to choose from. No need to just use the main mix.

Anyway, another great product from Cinematic studio people. Or whatever they’re called. Does this company have a name?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Michael Stibor said:


> Or whatever they’re called. Does this company have a name


Alex Wallbank and other rad aussies incorporate d


----------



## Soundbed

Are the flutes sharp in the upper register in your favorite live recordings, especially when louder?

Flutes in particular tend to go sharp in the upper register, it's a common phenomenon. I guess the question is how you'd want your samples tuned.

There's some charts online with tuning/intonation variances across the ranges of instruments... I'm trying to find one. IIRC the highest flute register tends to be the sharpest, typically.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Michael Stibor said:


> Oh and those overheads are perfect. So far it’s all I’ve been using. For those that mentioned that it sounds too upfront, there are plenty of mix options to choose from. No need to just use the main mix.
> 
> Anyway, another great product from Cinematic studio people. Or whatever they’re called. Does this company have a name?


I have just seen a few complains about the main mic, which might be perceived to close. As you say, it's easy though to get your own mix with the other options.

And yea - I've also been calling them Cinematic Studio (Series). But "CS" is already short for Cinesamples in my head. Wish they would have some proper name lol


----------



## rottoy

Bluemount Score said:


> Wish they would have some proper name lol


Crying All The Way To The Wallbank Productions?


----------



## Soundbed

The idea of being "well tempered" seems to favor tuning that gets a little sharp in the upper registers and a little flat in the lower registers, even in the piano. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221933427_Entropy-based_Tuning_of_Musical_Instruments 

This picture looks similar to the tuning shifts I've seen for orchestral instruments that play in each of these ranges.


----------



## Supremo

The download speed from CS downloader is incredibly slow for me. It's been 2 days already since I started downloading this damn thing and every morning I come to check the status to find out that the process was interrupted due to some missing files...


----------



## Bluemount Score

Supremo said:


> The download speed from CS downloader is incredibly slow for me. It's been 2 days already since I started downloading this damn thing and every morning I come to check the status to find out that the process was interrupted due to some missing files...


That's odd. I don't get why people simple loose files in the process when for most / others it just works fine


----------



## Christof

Same here, some files were missing, but Alex sent them manually.
Download speed was flawless.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Has anybody already heard anything official regarding the missing Alto Flute samples?


----------



## Robert_G

Bluemount Score said:


> Has anybody already heard anything official regarding the missing Alto Flute samples?


Yes. Alex replied to my email and said it’s an easy fix. They are just waiting a few days to see if there are other small fixes needed before releasing an update.


----------



## hsindermann

Supremo said:


> The download speed from CS downloader is incredibly slow for me. It's been 2 days already since I started downloading this damn thing and every morning I come to check the status to find out that the process was interrupted due to some missing files...


I had the same problem with download speeds - was a whopping 30kb/s for me here in Germany. I solved it by running the download through a VPN with server in the Netherlands, and was back to 6MB/s.

Also had the same problem with missing a file - the first one with the instruments in. I've downloaded that file manually from the link list sent via mail.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Robert_G said:


> Yes. Alex replied to my email and said it’s an easy fix. They are just waiting a few days to see if there are other small fixes needed before releasing an update.


Good to hear!


----------



## Symfoniq

My first impression is that these Cinematic Studio Woodwinds are quite stunning. I could just play for hours. Someone's comment that you can play these without riding the mod-wheel and they _still_ sound good is spot-on. There's a built-in lyricism that is so appealing, but doesn't get in your way, either.

I have no regrets that I pre-emptively sold my VSL woodwinds. My hat is off to Alex for maintaining this level of quality across so many instrument sections. It's quite an accomplishment.


----------



## MA-Simon

If I could have one wish for the CS Range it would be a *toggle for NV - VB above the legato toggle*.
For me it is just a bit annoying to search for a CC2 controller, when I just want to quickly load up a patch and test something. I have talked to people who did not even know that CSS had NV samples, because they are so hidden.


----------



## reddognoyz

I bit. I like the quality of the sounds quite a bit, the marcato setting feel very nimble to me. I use audio modeling quite a lot and I miss the phase free dynamics and I can feel the inherent laggyness that all sample based legato instruments have, but it has a much more orchestral sound and I see it making it's way into my template for sure!


----------



## eli0s

Can someone confirm if the clarinets (solo, solo Bass and 2) have vibrato or not?
Because I can't hear any difference when messing with CC2 and I want to make sure that I don't miss any samples or this is an actual feature in the notion of "in classical orchestras the clarinets play without vibrato".

Edit- Add the Solo Contra Bassoon to the list also!


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Loads of happy customers it seems, even if the library is not without its fault (which one isn't ?) 

Early day, but those who have both Berlin Legacy WW and CSW , do you feel there is enough "extra" to make it a must buy if you already own OT Berlin WW legacy ?


----------



## Beans

Paul Jelfs said:


> Loads of happy customers it seems, even if the library is not without its fault (which one isn't ?)
> 
> Early day, but those who have both Berlin Legacy WW and CSW , do you feel there is enough "extra" to make it a must buy if you already own OT Berlin WW legacy ?


I'm not sure any traditional woodwind library would be considered a "must" if you already have BWW, unless you need a unique patch/instrument from CSW or whatever alternative (the Cor Anglais, for example).


----------



## Bighill

eli0s said:


> Can someone confirm if the clarinets (solo, solo Bass and 2) have vibrato or not?
> Because I can't hear any difference when messing with CC2 and I want to make sure that I don't miss any samples or this is an actual feature in the notion of "in classical orchestras the clarinets play without vibrato".
> 
> Edit- Add the Solo Contra Bassoon to the list also!


The clarinets are not sampled with vibrato, because that style is not used in orchestral/classical music anymore.


----------



## Trash Panda

I must say, my ears and my credit card company love this forum. My wallet is not happy though. 

Gone from just CSS/CSSS to having the entire suite except for the legacy strings.


----------



## MA-Simon

Trash Panda said:


> I must say, my ears and my credit card company love this forum. My wallet is not happy though.
> 
> Gone from just CSS/CSSS to having the entire suite except for the legacy strings.


Tip: I did an extra 3D job this month, just so I could purchase this library. So no money lost here. Just planned extra spending.


----------



## MA-Simon

I want a Bass Flute... please?


----------



## Trash Panda

MA-Simon said:


> Tip: I did an extra 3D job this month, just so I could purchase this library. So no money lost here. Just planned extra spending.


I could have saved up since it's not intro pricing, but I'm bad at fiscal responsibility.


----------



## muziksculp

MA-Simon said:


> I want a Bass Flute... please?


Here is one :


----------



## MA-Simon

muziksculp said:


> Here is one :


But I want a CSW one D:...
Expansion C right? I do have B and D somewhere, but not C.


----------



## muziksculp

MA-Simon said:


> But I want a CSW one D:...
> Expansion C right? I do have B and D somewhere, but not C.


Hehe.. Sorry, can't help you there. 

Maybe Alex will add it in the future, and you can always email them and request it.


----------



## mcalis

Paul Jelfs said:


> Loads of happy customers it seems, even if the library is not without its fault (which one isn't ?)
> 
> Early day, but those who have both Berlin Legacy WW and CSW , do you feel there is enough "extra" to make it a must buy if you already own OT Berlin WW legacy ?


I have CSW and BWW revive & legacy (of which I use legacy the most). I don't think CSW is a must have, though I would say CSW's legato beats BWW. On the other hand, you're not getting anything articulation wise that you don't already have in BWW, unless you count the flutter tongues for the flutes. I generally also prefer having all separate instruments over a2 patches, and BWW gives far more options for flourishes and ornaments thanks to the extensive trills. What CSW offers is simplicity, consistency, and no endless fussing trying to balance the damn thing which BWW certainly requires. Tonally the two libraries sound surprisingly similar and I suspect they'll blend very well though I haven't tried yet.


----------



## MA-Simon

muziksculp said:


> Hehe.. Sorry, can't help you there.


Demos sound great! Very nice Bass Flute indeed. But I want those extra slow transitons CSW has. OT sounds like it only uses the Medium lenght transitions.


----------



## gohrev

Finally got around to creating an expression map, I like how consistent CS' libraries are.


----------



## jamwerks

I don't like the mic positions in BWW legacy, and Revive (with 2 dynamic layers just doesn't cut it for me. With only one mic position with VSL Woodwinds, I find difficult to mix them with other libraries for which 3 mic positions are open.

So seems CSW is the current best. We'll see how Century and other future offerings will compare.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

berlin87 said:


> Finally got around to creating an expression map, I like how consistent CS' libraries are.


Would you be willing to share here?


----------



## Trash Panda

MA-Simon said:


> I want a Bass Flute... please?


Infinite Woodwinds has a bass flute. Or potentially an infinite number of them depending on your needs.


----------



## Kevinside

you dont like Teldex? Shame on you 

Which reverb are you using with CSW...
My reverbs are Sonnox Reverb (AAX DSP), VSS3, Lexicon Total Bundle...Sometimes Valhalla or Spaces 2...

Maybe i should buy Seventhheaven to be in the club...


----------



## gohrev

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Would you be willing to share here?


As soon as I figure out why the same damn expression map won't load sustains without legato for flute! 😡


----------



## Dewdman42

Symfoniq said:


> I have no regrets that I pre-emptively sold my VSL woodwinds. My hat is off to Alex for maintaining this level of quality across so many instrument sections. It's quite an accomplishment.



Can you please comment from memory what you like about CSW in contrast to VSL woodwinds? I have all the VSL woodwinds and feel they are quite good. However I might consider picking up CSW additionally, but I'd like to understand if I really need to. Not many on this thread seem to be using VSL stuff, there seems to be a divide between people that use VSL and people that avoid VSL and use stuff like CSS and CSW instead. I'd really like to see a bit more nitty gritty comparison to to VSL woodwinds, particularly with regards to things like the dynamic layers and legato transitions.


----------



## Alex Niedt

So I played along to the solo instruments in the legato walkthrough with Berlin Woodwinds Soloists (my absolute favorite woodwinds), and while CSW didn't "beat" it by any means, it certainly sat alongside it beautifully. So I'd buy CSW if Berlin Woodwinds Soloists didn't exist and I was a heavy CSS/CSSS/CSB user. Awesome to have multiple outstanding choices like this nowadays.


----------



## Marlon Brown

Gmetcalfe said:


> Nice, bue don't they need to be in score order?


It's hilarious you put say this, because I was thinking the same things


----------



## Bluemount Score

Bluemount Score said:


> Here is some CSW mixed with CSS in my first attempt to combine the two libraries. And now, I need some sleep.


I made a little 2min track out of this sketch, using only Cinematic Studio libraries (strings, winds, brass, piano)


----------



## Argan

Bluemount Score said:


> I made a little 2min track out of this sketch, using only Cinematic Studio libraries (strings, winds, brass, piano)



Very nice! I love the full sound that the CS series creates all together.


----------



## richhickey

The release samples seem wonky/MIA to me. Here's a video of CSW oboe, then CSB Trumpet, then CSW Clarinet, same MIDI, SusLegato, MarcatoLegato (no overlay), Trill, Sfz (to demonstrate room decay). The CSW sounds like a rampdown of the loop instead of a release, and it takes forever. Super noticeable on the sus and trills, vs the trumpet. Is anyone else seeing this?



Added: It seems to differ by mic position - e.g. on the trills, the close/OH and mix have the ringout problem but the mains and room don't.


----------



## rottoy

Bluemount Score said:


> I made a little 2min track out of this sketch, using only Cinematic Studio libraries (strings, winds, brass, piano)



I love this! Wonderful harmonies with really meaty orchestration. 
You are really making the libraries shine here!


----------



## filipjonathan

Bluemount Score said:


> I made a little 2min track out of this sketch, using only Cinematic Studio libraries (strings, winds, brass, piano)



So nice!!!


----------



## richhickey

Yeah, I don't seem to be able to get any detache with CSW. Again same MIDI to CSB Trumpet, CSW Oboe, CSW Clarinet, then back to trumpet. All sus/legato (played detache), just Main mic. CSW sounds like a calliope :( Anyone else?

View attachment CSWdetache.mp3


----------



## CT

I don't think many virtual winds (or anything else) will give you a proper "detache" just by playing the notes that way and expecting the programming to suit it. You'll need to, at the least, do a lot of CC1 sculpting.


----------



## richhickey

Mike T said:


> I don't think many virtual winds (or anything else) will give you a proper "detache" just by playing the notes that way and expecting the programming to suit it. You'll need to, at the least, do a lot of CC1 sculpting.


I'm not looking for some nuanced thing here - I just don't want the notes to run all over one another in legato/mono mode on a monophonic instrument. The trumpet is ok, so they obviously know how to do this in precisely the same context. I have dozens of sample libs here that won't overlap like this. It has nothing to do with CC1, it's a matter of overlap/not and release samples. I'd love for someone who actually has the library to try it and let me know.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Mike T said:


> I don't think many virtual winds (or anything else) will give you a proper "detache" just by playing the notes that way and expecting the programming to suit it. You'll need to, at the least, do a lot of CC1 sculpting.


It's been doable in CSS/S CSB so not a crazy expectation.

It does pose quite an issue though considering CSW's lack of medium length notes/detache.

I found the release samples a bit wonky in certain places and do need some extra TLC


----------



## CT

richhickey said:


> I'm not looking for some nuanced thing here - I just don't want the notes to run all over one another in legato/mono mode on a monophonic instrument. The trumpet is ok, so they obviously know how to do this in precisely the same context. I have dozens of sample libs here that won't overlap like this. It has nothing to do with CC1, it's a matter of overlap/not and release samples. I'd love for someone who actually has the library to try it and let me know.


Oh... the trumpet sounds much better to you? Sounds to me like the same (expected and to some degree avoidable) problem, except that the direct sound of the trumpet contrasts more with the response of the room than the woodwinds' does, which are more enveloped and so their releases feel more sluggish.

At any rate, the release envelope is adjustable, is it not?


----------



## Kevinside

I am so glad...CSW does not have this awful noise and hiss of CSS and CSB...

I wonder... Did they use better mics with this library?


----------



## constaneum

Bighill said:


> The clarinets are not sampled with vibrato, because that style is not used in orchestral/classical music anymore.


Ironically, SSW's Clarinet has Vibrato.


----------



## purple

constaneum said:


> Ironically, SSW's Clarinet has Vibrato.


Yes, it's a very controversial issue in the clarinet world from what I hear.


----------



## coprhead6

purple said:


> Yes, it's a very controversial issue in the clarinet world from what I hear.


The SSW clarinet already sounds brash for an orchestral clarinet (very Gershwin), so the vibrato is quite fitting!


----------



## Denkii

Kevinside said:


> Maybe i should buy Seventhheaven to be in the club...


Do it. One of the best purchases you will have made. Ever. Get the small version to check it out if you're not someone who loves endless tweaking, it's good enough.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Bluemount Score said:


> I made a little 2min track out of this sketch, using only Cinematic Studio libraries (strings, winds, brass, piano)



Very Nice! @Bluemount Score can I ask what Mic settings you used for each Section?


----------



## mcalis

Alex Niedt said:


> So I played along to the solo instruments in the legato walkthrough with Berlin Woodwinds Soloists (my absolute favorite woodwinds), and while CSW didn't "beat" it by any means, it certainly sat alongside it beautifully. So I'd buy CSW if Berlin Woodwinds Soloists didn't exist and I was a heavy CSS/CSSS/CSB user. Awesome to have multiple outstanding choices like this nowadays.


Just to clarify since I said CSW beat BWW in terms of legato, I was comparing CSW to BWW legacy and revive, NOT to the BWW soloists expansion, I don't have those.


----------



## Manaberry

Kevinside said:


> I am so glad...CSW does not have this awful noise and hiss of CSS and CSB...
> 
> I wonder... Did they use better mics with this library?


Really?! This is one of the reasons I avoid using CSS/B.


----------



## Bighill

Dewdman42 said:


> Can you please comment from memory what you like about CSW in contrast to VSL woodwinds? I have all the VSL woodwinds and feel they are quite good. However I might consider picking up CSW additionally, but I'd like to understand if I really need to. Not many on this thread seem to be using VSL stuff, there seems to be a divide between people that use VSL and people that avoid VSL and use stuff like CSS and CSW instead. I'd really like to see a bit more nitty gritty comparison to to VSL woodwinds, particularly with regards to things like the dynamic layers and legato transitions.


I have VSL all woodwinds full extended version, (going through MIR,) and I still think the clarinets are far better than the ones in Berlin and CSW. (I have both) The rest of CSW is really nice. The clarinets, for some reason, have too long release samples, and, as they are non vibrato, the dynamic crossfading make them sound detuned at times, not the warm quality you really need from a clarinet. If we had an option to separate the layers, (like in vsl,) I think that also the clarinets could work well.


----------



## Kubler

Meanwhile I'm still waiting for my download to finish :( Anyone here had issues ? I didn't go over 750 kb/s so far, I'm 17+ hours into the download and only around half of it is completed.


----------



## Denkii

Kubler said:


> Meanwhile I'm still waiting for my download to finish :( Anyone here had issues ? I didn't go over 750 kb/s so far, I'm 17+ hours into the downlad and only around half of it is completed.


Contact Alex. He can put your downloads onto a different AWS server so your speed will be better.


----------



## gohrev

Bluemount Score said:


> I made a little 2min track out of this sketch, using only Cinematic Studio libraries (strings, winds, brass, piano)



Just wanted to say: Beautiful.

_Edit: And I would love to know what mics you used for the libraries _


----------



## Sovereign

richhickey said:


> The release samples seem wonky/MIA to me. Here's a video of CSW oboe, then CSB Trumpet, then CSW Clarinet, same MIDI, SusLegato, MarcatoLegato (no overlay), Trill, Sfz (to demonstrate room decay). The CSW sounds like a rampdown of the loop instead of a release, and it takes forever. Super noticeable on the sus and trills, vs the trumpet. Is anyone else seeing this?
> 
> 
> 
> Added: It seems to differ by mic position - e.g. on the trills, the close/OH and mix have the ringout problem but the mains and room don't.



I'm not hearing missing release samples, but rather ones that might be a bit long for your taste. Perhaps Alex can tighten these up. If you have concerns it would be best to voice those to Alex directly.


----------



## Bluemount Score

filipjonathan said:


> So nice!!!





Benjamin Duk said:


> Very Nice! @Bluemount Score can I ask what Mic settings you used for each Section?





berlin87 said:


> Just wanted to say: Beautiful.
> 
> _Edit: And I would love to know what mics you used for the libraries _





rottoy said:


> I love this! Wonderful harmonies with really meaty orchestration.
> You are really making the libraries shine here!


Thanks for the kind words!!

Here are the mic settings:

CSSS first chairs:
-8.5dB Close
-24dB Main
-3.5dB Room

CSS:
-4.5 Close
-20dB Main
-3.5dB Room

CSW:
-12dB OH
-30dB Main
-2.5dB Room

CSB (just the solo horn in this track):
-16.5dB Close
muted Main mic
-2.0dB Room

CSP:
-16.0dB Close
-10dB Main
-3.0dB Room

Additional space created with Seventh Heaven Studio A preset, adjusted individually for the sections. Panning was only done by using close mics.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Bluemount Score said:


> Thanks for the kind words!!
> 
> Here are the mic settings:
> 
> CSSS first chairs:
> -8.5dB Close
> -24dB Main
> -3.5dB Room
> 
> CSS:
> -4.5 Close
> -20dB Main
> -3.5dB Room
> 
> CSW:
> -12dB OH
> -30dB Main
> -2.5dB Room
> 
> CSB (just the solo horn in this track):
> -16.5dB Close
> -2.0dB Room
> 
> CSP:
> -16.0dB Close
> -10dB Main
> -3.0dB Room
> 
> Additional space created with Seventh Heaven Studio A preset, adjusted individually for the sections. Panning was only done by using close mics.


Thanks for sharing!

This is interesting. Surprised at how little Tree Mic is being used in this mix. Sounds great though.

If you had to go for a more traditional Mix would you have the Tree the loudest Mic and the Close mics the softest?


----------



## Bluemount Score

Benjamin Duk said:


> Thanks for sharing!
> 
> This is interesting. Surprised at how little Tree Mic is being used in this mix. Sounds great though.
> 
> If you had to go for a more traditional Mix would you have the Tree the loudest Mic and the Close mics the softest?


The thing is, especially with CSS/CSSS, I feel like the main (therefore tree) mic brings the most noise and unwanted frequency mud into the mix which I don't like. It sounds clearer to me when I lower it. Little EQ was done in this specific track.
Alex himself said that the main mic isn't really supposed to be used on it's own. So my approach here is different, but I don't really look at mic names, I (try) to listen.
With other libraries, more tree will work better, depending on the context. I'm still experimenting..


----------



## gohrev

Thanks for sharing, @Bluemount Score

Funny: for Strings, I fiddled around with the mic settings for a long time, but I kept going back to sticking with _Mix. _It just seems to offer the right amount of bite, room and lushness.

For Brass, I only use Room.

For CSW, your mic settings are identical to mine – I'm guessing many people will go that route


----------



## Bluemount Score

berlin87 said:


> Thanks for sharing, @Bluemount Score
> 
> Funny: for Strings, I fiddled around with the mic settings for a long time, but I kept going back to sticking with _Mix. _It just seems to offer the right amount of bite, room and lushness.
> 
> For Brass, I only use Room.
> 
> For CSW, your mic settings are identical to mine – I'm guessing many people will go that route


The close mic on my solo horn mostly has panning reasons - I think I even pulled it 100% to the left, while the room mic stays centered. Otherwise I would probably go for just room as well to have that brass sitting in the back.
And yes, the mix on CSS is a often a good starting point, sometimes it stays just like that for me, too.


----------



## Casiquire

Bighill said:


> I have VSL all woodwinds full extended version, (going through MIR,) and I still think the clarinets are far better than the ones in Berlin and CSW. (I have both) The rest of CSW is really nice. The clarinets, for some reason, have too long release samples, and, as they are non vibrato, the dynamic crossfading make them sound detuned at times, not the warm quality you really need from a clarinet. If we had an option to separate the layers, (like in vsl,) I think that also the clarinets could work well.


I believe BWW does give you that option


----------



## artinro

Bighill said:


> I have VSL all woodwinds full extended version, (going through MIR,) and I still think the clarinets are far better than the ones in Berlin and CSW. (I have both) The rest of CSW is really nice. The clarinets, for some reason, have too long release samples, and, as they are non vibrato, the dynamic crossfading make them sound detuned at times, not the warm quality you really need from a clarinet. If we had an option to separate the layers, (like in vsl,) I think that also the clarinets could work well.


Agreed. It’s a wonderful library as is, but I’d love to see a version of the patches where dynamics are separated into the individual layers which can’t sound at the same time.The phasing can be quite jarring. Perhaps the mod wheel could serve just as a filter of sorts between these layers without ever having two layers sounding at the same time? Maybe that’s naive? Almost like a more robust version of the BWW one-layer soloists where the mod wheel is just a filter that mimics other dynamics....this time it would just be smoothing the gaps between ACTUAL dynamics but without the crossfades. In any case. There are some very nice, instantly lovely gems in this library. Beautifully done @Alex W!


----------



## jamwerks

Yeah a little phasing is probably inevitable. I've never programmed any dynamic cross-fades, but I imagine that you probably have to manually position each layer and then tweek until the less-worst results are achieved.

I've wondering though if Alex could publish any specific CC positions where only one layer is being played. I imagine at 0 & 127, only the softest and loudest layers respectively are playing. Is there a setting in the middle, common to all instruments, where only the middle layer is playing?


----------



## N.Caffrey

artinro said:


> Agreed. It’s a wonderful library as is, but I’d love to see a version of the patches where dynamics are separated into the individual layers which can’t sound at the same time.The phasing can be quite jarring. Perhaps the mod wheel could serve just as a filter of sorts between these layers without ever having two layers sounding at the same time? Maybe that’s naive? Almost like a more robust version of the BWW one-layer soloists where the mod wheel is just a filter that mimics other dynamics....this time it would just be smoothing the gaps between ACTUAL dynamics but without the crossfades. In any case. There are some very nice, instantly lovely gems in this library. Beautifully done @Alex W!


Can’t you do it by not touching the mod wheel and just using the fader for the expression?


----------



## ag75

This has probably already been mentioned but can someone tell me how long the loyalty discount is good for?


----------



## Fry777

ag75 said:


> This has probably already been mentioned but can someone tell me how long the loyalty discount is good for?


There's no time limit, that's the beauty of it


----------



## Tremendouz

Yeah I'm finding the phasing to be pretty jarring. It doesn't happen all the time but often enough that it's impacting my programming and playing.

Example: I'm trying to do a smooth fade to silence but at the point where the 2 lowest dynamic layers meet there's actually a volume increase (I assume the effect of the 2 layers overlapping) until it abruptly switches to the softest layer only.

I talked about Embertone Popelka bassoon's approach in this thread yesterday. The dynamic layer for the next legato transition and the following note is decided with modwheel but after the note has started, modwheel only seemingly affects the volume of the note, no crossfades to the softer layer possible.

I think a similar mode/option for CSW would be nice.


----------



## richhickey

artinro said:


> Agreed. It’s a wonderful library as is, but I’d love to see a version of the patches where dynamics are separated into the individual layers which can’t sound at the same time.The phasing can be quite jarring. Perhaps the mod wheel could serve just as a filter of sorts between these layers without ever having two layers sounding at the same time? Maybe that’s naive? Almost like a more robust version of the BWW one-layer soloists where the mod wheel is just a filter that mimics other dynamics....this time it would just be smoothing the gaps between ACTUAL dynamics but without the crossfades.


I think Embertone got this right with JB violin. There are multiple dynamic layers, but once you initiate a note, it locks in that layer and and adjusts its volume for any further dynamic rides. This gives you the phasing free benefit of e.g. OT Nocturne series without the drawback of only one dynamic.

It also solves the problem of manually doing this with CC11 (expression) on top of CC1 dynamics, in that once you've ridden up a note with CC11, how to ensure the dynamic (CC1) of the next note matches, while simultaneously pulling back CC11 to nominal (and without audible artifacts). Embertone's system automates this, lets you focus on just CC1, and sounds quite pleasing. More library devs should copy it


----------



## ag75

Fry777 said:


> There's no time limit, that's the beauty of it


This is why I never hesitate to buy from this company.


----------



## Supremo

Shouldn't that read "Staccato" instead?


----------



## Bluemount Score

Supremo said:


> Shouldn't that read "Staccato" instead?


It probably should - spiccato is a bowing technique for string instruments


----------



## gohrev

Supremo said:


> Shouldn't that read "Staccato" instead?


Thank you! I was starting to doubt myself


----------



## borisb2

quick riddle: which thread-count belongs to CSW? ..


----------



## Bluemount Score

borisb2 said:


> quick riddle: which thread-count belongs to CSW? ..


Last one! (I guessed)


----------



## Collywobbles

borisb2 said:


> quick riddle: which thread-count belongs to CSW? ..


Well since it's one of those hidden gems no one ever seems to talk about, it has to be the 5th one from the top right?


----------



## Sebanimation

Absolutely loving this library so far. Never had a dedicated woodwinds library so this opens up so many possibilities. Had to try it out with one of my favorite pieces ever.  (Only CSS libraries used) Still fiddling around with the mix, right now I only used the OH mic on all woods.


----------



## VivianaSings

artinro said:


> Agreed. It’s a wonderful library as is, but I’d love to see a version of the patches where dynamics are separated into the individual layers which can’t sound at the same time.The phasing can be quite jarring. Perhaps the mod wheel could serve just as a filter of sorts between these layers without ever having two layers sounding at the same time? Maybe that’s naive? Almost like a more robust version of the BWW one-layer soloists where the mod wheel is just a filter that mimics other dynamics....this time it would just be smoothing the gaps between ACTUAL dynamics but without the crossfades. In any case. There are some very nice, instantly lovely gems in this library. Beautifully done @Alex W!


Maybe it's just me because I never got a handle on why there's two different volume controls in libraries (many libraries use both expression and mod wheel) but I've always tended to select my layer with the mod wheel depending on where I am in my score and then actually CC11 (Expression) to ride the volume. 

So for example if I'm in a softer part of my score, my mod wheel is down in the p section and all volume is done with expression. When I get to a much more climatic part, the mod wheel goes up to ff right before the line starts and again, expression is used for volume. 

So the phasing thing never bothered me with any library because I never move the mod wheel while the line is playing - moving the mod wheel is done before the line starts. All volume is either CC11 or CC2 (breath controller).

Again I never asked but I fell into doing it this way because I never understood the point of two volume controls so I just assigned different functions to each.

Besides, you're supposed to select the shorts with the mod wheel in the CS series. I never understood how that worked...how do you select different shorts without messing with the dynamic layers? I always use keyswitches so it doesn't bother me but that always confused me as well.


----------



## ridgero

Sebanimation said:


> Absolutely loving this library so far. Never had a dedicated woodwinds library so this opens up so many possibilities. Had to try it out with one of my favorite pieces ever.  (Only CSS libraries used) Still fiddling around with the mix, right now I only used the OH mic on all woods.



Raiders of the Lost Ark? :D


----------



## Tremendouz

VivianaSings said:


> Besides, you're supposed to select the shorts with the mod wheel in the CS series. I never understood how that worked...how do you select different shorts without messing with the dynamic layers?


With shorts you select the dynamic layer with note velocity while modwheel only switches between the different short articulations


----------



## VivianaSings

Tremendouz said:


> With shorts you select the dynamic layer with note velocity while modwheel only switches between the different short articulations


Ah thanks for the heads up. I've had the series forever and I'm still figuring it out lol


----------



## Robert_G

Bluemount Score said:


> Thanks for the kind words!!
> 
> Here are the mic settings:
> 
> CSSS first chairs:
> -8.5dB Close
> -24dB Main
> -3.5dB Room
> 
> CSS:
> -4.5 Close
> -20dB Main
> -3.5dB Room
> 
> CSW:
> -12dB OH
> -30dB Main
> -2.5dB Room
> 
> CSB (just the solo horn in this track):
> -16.5dB Close
> -2.0dB Room
> 
> CSP:
> -16.0dB Close
> -10dB Main
> -3.0dB Room
> 
> Additional space created with Seventh Heaven Studio A preset, adjusted individually for the sections. Panning was only done by using close mics.



Just want to say thanks for sharing the mic configuration. I tried them out and can't believe the noise reduction with lowering the main mic. Not sure I would have thought to try that. The CSS strings are cleaner, and it makes a huge difference with the woodwinds. The woodwinds come to life even more with the lowering the volume of the main mic to your setting.

I noticed you didn't do much with the Brass. Have you tried different mic configurations with them.?


----------



## Bluemount Score

Robert_G said:


> I noticed you didn't do much with the Brass. Have you tried different mic configurations with them.?


Well, I completely muted the main mic in my brass but increased the room mic by a bit, so it's quite different to the mix mic which is too up front imo (like it is with CSW). The close mic is mostly there to pan the instrument. Tone-wise I could live without it and just have the room mic. I pushed the brass back even a little further with a single instance of Seventh Heaven. That's the configuration how it is in my current template.
With so much room mic in my setup you shouldn't dislike the room tone of the series, which some people do (it's not always my favorit either), because of course a more ambient room tone is exactly what you get from that - I generally prefer to shape the signal with mic positions as far as I can, before adding any reverb effect


----------



## Robert_G

Bluemount Score said:


> Well, I completely muted the main mic in my brass but increased the room mic by a bit, so it's quite different to the mix mic which is too up front imo (like it is with CSW). The close mic is mostly there to pan the instrument. Tone-wise I could live without it and just have the room mic. I pushed the brass back even a little further with a single instance of Seventh Heaven. That's the configuration how it is in my current template.
> With so much room mic in my setup you shouldn't dislike the room tone of the series, which some people do (it's not always my favorit either), because of course a more ambient room tone is exactly what you get from that - I generally prefer to shape the signal with mic positions as far as I can, before adding any reverb effect


Ah...ok. When I saw there was no adjustment on the Brass, I assumed you left it at it's starting point. I didn't realize you turned it down to mute.

You said in your other post that you only made an adjustment on one solo brass instrument. Does that mean you left the others the same, or is that the only brass instrument you were using for the arrangement?


----------



## Bluemount Score

Robert_G said:


> Ah...ok. When I saw there was no adjustment on the Brass, I assumed you left it at it's starting point. I didn't realize you turned it down to mute.
> 
> You said in your other post that you only made an adjustment on one solo brass instrument. Does that mean you left the others the same, or is that the only brass instrument you were using for the arrangement?


I edited the previous post now so it's clear the main mic is muted.

The solo horn was the only instrument from CSB I used in that track. I also panned the other brass instruments that you don't hear in there by using the close mic. Mostly horns to the left, trumpets to the right. Mic levels / reverb are almost the same for all brass instruments in my template (horns perhaps slightly more up front than the rest, but you know, minor tweaking)


----------



## Robert_G

Bluemount Score said:


> I edited the previous post now so it's clear the main mic is muted.
> 
> The solo horn was the only instrument from CSB I used in that track. I also panned the other brass instruments that you don't hear in there by using the close mic. Mostly horns to the left, trumpets to the right. Mic levels / reverb are almost the same for all brass instruments in my template (horns perhaps slightly more up front than the rest, but you know, minor tweaking)


Makes sense. I'm surprised that I haven't heard many others here mention turning down the main mic. I keep hearing so good out of the box on mixed mic....and it is, but it is so much better with a custom mic mix like you have. Turning down the main mic really does help make each of them sound better.

Just turned down the main mic on the brass. It helps a lot with some of the complaints here that the brass is too forward. It really does move it back nicely.


----------



## kupo15

Giscard Rasquin said:


> Quick take on Princess Leia´s theme (alongside CSS and CSB).
> So far really enjoying the sound and playability.



Wow sounds fantastic! How did you get the flute to sound so clear? It sounded so close like I was onstage which is exactly what I want to learn how to do. Were you using different mics or EQing? That is something I need to learn more about. Currently I'm just doing the standard "mix" mics.

I'm really impressed with this library. I actually bought Vienna Syncron last year bc CSW wasn't around, and just when I started mocking up again this year this drops. Must be fate! I decided to buy CSW and use that, its so much easier to use than Vienna and I think it sounds better too, but I really didn't touch Vienna since I bought it to really make a fair comparison.

The legato's as always are great with CS, I mocked up Pictures at an Exhibition to learn all CS libraries at once. I'm pretty pleased for my first attempt and learned a lot from this. Any imperfections in the mock up are 100% my fault not knowing levels and how to use a DAW (was learning that also). Still I'm about 80% happy with the mockup, there are some nice moments that showcase the winds

Looking forward to working with this more!











reference recording:


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

kupo15 said:


> I decided to buy CSW and use that, its so much easier to use than Vienna


Curious to know in what way(s)? Once you set up Synchron Player to your liking, I've found it is very fast to work with (at least Synchron Strings Pro).


----------



## Jack Weaver

Several pages back I was mentioning that I had issues with the CSW install for Mac.

Apparently Alex had read my post and personally emailed me and hung with me until it was all sorted out. ...and you know how busy he is this week!

Good dude. Good developer. 

.


----------



## kupo15

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Curious to know in what way(s)? Once you set up Synchron Player to your liking, I've found it is very fast to work with (at least Synchron Strings Pro).


Yep, the setup was a pain with the servers but after that it wasn't too bad. I didn't know the best way to KS between different folders that didn't involve pressing keys. Like if I wanted to switch from legato to short staccato, I had to press 2 keys?

There probably is a way to make switching between it all CCs right? If I can set that up I think it will be easy to use as well. How would you do that?

The player itself had so many things going on I was getting overwhelmed. Even though I bought CSB/S and Vienna last year I never used it until now, so I was learning CSS,CSB,Vienna, Syncron, and Reaper all at once. I just decided to focus first on using CSW since it shared the workflow with the others. Plus, I really wanted to explore the lyrical legato stuff too. I'm pretty sure CSW does that better

Here is the same Pictures using Vienna Winds if anyone wanted a compare. Though take it with a grain of salt, I spent more time and effort into CSW, plus I touched up the other instruments more after switching over to CSW (I initially started this mockup with Vienna)


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

kupo15 said:


> Yep, the setup was a pain with the servers but after that it wasn't too bad. I didn't know the best way to KS between different folders that didn't involve pressing keys. Like if I wanted to switch from legato to short staccato, I had to press 2 keys?
> 
> There probably is a way to make switching between it all CCs right? If I can set that up I think it will be easy to use as well. How would you do that?
> 
> The player itself had so many things going on I was getting overwhelmed. Even though I bought CSB/S and Vienna last year I never used it until now, so I was learning CSS,CSB,Vienna, Syncron, and Reaper all at once. I just decided to focus first on using CSW since it shared the workflow with the others. Plus, I really wanted to explore the lyrical legato stuff too. I'm pretty sure CSW does that better
> 
> Here is the same Pictures using Vienna Winds if anyone wanted a compare. Though take it with a grain of salt, I spent more time and effort into CSW, plus I touched up the other instruments more after switching over to CSW (I initially started this mockup with Vienna)


Ah got it. Yes, CSW's interface is more straightforward, but simplicity also means it doesn't have the flexibility of Synchron Player. You can change dimensions in Synchron Player by keys, CCs, program changes, velocity, speed of playing, etc. It's incredibly powerful.

But fair to say, CSW is easier to use out of the box most probably.


----------



## Dewdman42

I'm more interested in hearing detailed comparisons and reviews of the legato transitions and dynamic layer handling. Articulation options.


----------



## cqd

Is anyone kind of pissed there isn't a classic legato patch like with the strings to just bang stuff out in time?..


----------



## pawelmorytko

cqd said:


> Is anyone kind of pissed there isn't a classic legato patch like with the strings to just bang stuff out in time?..


Would be nice I guess, but what I really would love is to be able to adjust the range of the 'slow' 'medium' and 'fast' transitions on the arc. The 'slow' one takes up half of the arc, and a lot of the time when playing stuff in live I barely reach the medium/fast transitions because I don't want to be slamming the keys on my keyboard, so I wish I could even out the range a bit more, or just make it custom


----------



## Ashermusic

There are some bugs that they are aware of, and no ensemble patch yet, but man, these just sound lovely!


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

kupo15 said:


> Wow sounds fantastic! How did you get the flute to sound so clear? It sounded so close like I was onstage which is exactly what I want to learn how to do. Were you using different mics or EQing? That is something I need to learn more about. Currently I'm just doing the standard "mix" mics.
> 
> I'm really impressed with this library. I actually bought Vienna Syncron last year bc CSW wasn't around, and just when I started mocking up again this year this drops. Must be fate! I decided to buy CSW and use that, its so much easier to use than Vienna and I think it sounds better too, but I really didn't touch Vienna since I bought it to really make a fair comparison.
> 
> The legato's as always are great with CS, I mocked up Pictures at an Exhibition to learn all CS libraries at once. I'm pretty pleased for my first attempt and learned a lot from this. Any imperfections in the mock up are 100% my fault not knowing levels and how to use a DAW (was learning that also). Still I'm about 80% happy with the mockup, there are some nice moments that showcase the winds
> 
> Looking forward to working with this more!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reference recording:



Nothing actually. Just checked my session and thought I put some Gulfoss on it, but that was turned off. Completely standard CSW flute (the way it opens up, so mix mic).
Just a very tiny tad of compression and a little bit of Cinematic Rooms reverb to blend everything together (standard Amethyst hall preset at 2.25 seconds).


----------



## kupo15

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Ah got it. Yes, CSW's interface is more straightforward, but simplicity also means it doesn't have the flexibility of Synchron Player. You can change dimensions in Synchron Player by keys, CCs, program changes, velocity, speed of playing, etc. It's incredibly powerful.
> 
> But fair to say, CSW is easier to use out of the box most probably.


Cool, I guess it makes sense you can switch dimensions with CC, I just never got that far. I'll have to look into Vsl some more later after I've explored CSW more and feel good with it. Work my way up to a more involved library

Probably a dumb question but with CSS, the legacy strings... Is that actually CS2? So we basically got both string libraries? (not solo of course) 

@Giscard Rasquin wow cool. I definitely need to learn more about adding reverb, mixing and filters. Any idea how Alex is able to get his pieces sounding so clean, open and brilliant sounding? 

His "Arrival" for example, the opening brass is so clear and the tone so pure. Leagues above the opening to my mock up. How does his sound like its in the room with you? Perhaps mic placement? And the trumpet part in the climax of the piece, sounds exquisite! Once again, compare that to my mock up and mine sounds midi like and harsh, muddy. I really want to know what I need to look into to improve the quality of the samples. Should I be using the close, dry mics only and send it to a reverb to be able to control the sound better? 

Hopefully his video this month with shed light on it


----------



## axb312

kupo15 said:


> Cool, I guess it makes sense you can switch dimensions with CC, I just never got that far. I'll have to look into Vsl some more later after I've explored CSW more and feel good with it. Work my way up to a more involved library
> 
> Probably a dumb question but with CSS, the legacy strings... Is that actually CS2? So we basically got both string libraries? (not solo of course)
> 
> @Giscard Rasquin wow cool. I definitely need to learn more about adding reverb, mixing and filters. Any idea how Alex is able to get his pieces sounding so clean, open and brilliant sounding?
> 
> His "Arrival" for example, the opening brass is so clear and the tone so pure. Leagues above the opening to my mock up. How does his sound like its in the room with you? Perhaps mic placement? And the trumpet part in the climax of the piece, sounds exquisite! Once again, compare that to my mock up and mine sounds midi like and harsh, muddy. I really want to know what I need to look into to improve the quality of the samples. Should I be using the close, dry mics only and send it to a reverb to be able to control the sound better?
> 
> Hopefully his video this month with shed light on it


How do we know the vids coming this month?


----------



## Tremendouz

kupo15 said:


> Probably a dumb question but with CSS, the legacy strings... Is that actually CS2? So we basically got both string libraries? (not solo of course)


Do you mean the classic legato patches in CSS? No, those aren't CS2, they're just differently programmed legato with less realism but also less latency (I think)


----------



## Jdiggity1

Have only had an hour or so to play with it, but am finding it to be very musical and flexible. Looking forward to putting it through its paces!

*Test #1*: Intro of 'Third Date' from HTTYD3 (J. Powell)
Solo flute, solo oboe, solo clarinet - legato only

*Conclusion*: ✅ - I like.

View attachment CSW_Third Date test.mp3


----------



## Kubler

I'm curious, anyone else for whom the alto flute lacks all the samples for repetitions, sforzando and marcatos ? Not sure whether it's a bug or those just weren't recorded, as I didn't manage to get my hand on a detailed articulation list per patch.

Aside from that and a slight tuning problem on some staccato overlays for the marcatos, it sounds really excellent. I can't wait to test it out in a piece. My only regret is that the clarinet lacks a lower dynamic layer for sustains and shorts – the current one is still a tiny bit too bright to my taste, not quite getting this round, warm and quiet feeling.


----------



## Eptesicus

Jdiggity1 said:


> Have only had an hour or so to play with it, but am finding it to be very musical and flexible. Looking forward to putting it through its paces!
> 
> *Test #1*: Intro of 'Third Date' from HTTYD3 (J. Powell)
> Solo flute, solo oboe, solo clarinet - legato only
> 
> *Conclusion*: ✅ - I like.
> 
> View attachment CSW_Third Date test.mp3



Sounds amazing/like the recording.

Alex really knows how to do legato!


----------



## Eptesicus

Kubler said:


> I'm curious, anyone else for whom the alto flute lacks all the samples for repetitions, sforzando and marcatos ? Not sure whether it's a bug or those just weren't recorded, as I didn't manage to get my hand on a detailed articulation list per patch.
> 
> Aside from that and a slight tuning problem on some staccato overlays for the marcatos, it sounds really excellent. I can't wait to test it out in a piece. My only regret is that the clarinet lacks a lower dynamic layer for sustains and shorts – the current one is still a tiny bit too bright to my taste, not quite getting this round, warm and quiet feeling.



Yes the alto flute thing is known and will reportedly be fixed very soon.


----------



## Tremendouz

Eptesicus said:


> Yes the alto flute thing is known and will reportedly be fixed very soon.


I don't seem to be missing any samples. Really weird ¯\_ (ツ) _/¯


----------



## gohrev

Robert_G said:


> Just turned down the main mic on the brass. It helps a lot with some of the complaints here that the brass is too forward. It really does move it back nicely.


Perhaps I'm missing something, but why would you activate the main mic at all?


----------



## mcalis

berlin87 said:


> Perhaps I'm missing something, but why would you activate the main mic at all?


Because you like the sound of it? xD


----------



## Bluemount Score

berlin87 said:


> Perhaps I'm missing something, but why would you activate the main mic at all?


I had the feeling the sections felt somewhat more "glued together" / in the same space when there was still a bit of main mic in the mix


----------



## Sovereign

Bluemount Score said:


> I had the feeling the sections felt somewhat more "glued together" / in the same space when there was still a bit of main mic in the mix


At -20 or -30 dB? It's a very, very little bit at that point.


----------



## Ashermusic

Kubler said:


> I'm curious, anyone else for whom the alto flute lacks all the samples for repetitions, sforzando and marcatos ? Not sure whether it's a bug or those just weren't recorded, as I didn't manage to get my hand on a detailed articulation list per patch.
> 
> Aside from that and a slight tuning problem on some staccato overlays for the marcatos, it sounds really excellent. I can't wait to test it out in a piece. My only regret is that the clarinet lacks a lower dynamic layer for sustains and shorts – the current one is still a tiny bit too bright to my taste, not quite getting this round, warm and quiet feeling.


Yes, they are aware that there are missing samples in the alto flute and will fix that in an update soon.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Sovereign said:


> At -20 or -30 dB? It's a very, very little bit at that point.


It is! I still notice a slight difference. Small enough though that I got rid of the main mic in my current brass setup. To be fair, if I had RAM issues, I wouldn't probably use it in strings or winds either... it's not _that_ important to my ears, so you might as well mute it. I encourage to try it out, I'm still experimenting myself


----------



## kupo15

axb312 said:


> How do we know the vids coming this month?


I email him about some tips and tricks to his workflow and making things sound great and he told me he planned on having a video on it end of this month. 

Other users have also mentioned about this video coming but I'm wondering how they found out about it lol


----------



## peladio

As expected it's a fantastic library..I'm very happy to support this company and buy everything they release without even listening to demos..

Pure class all around..no cheap marketing and new product every month..just dedication to quality over quantity and loyalty to their customers..

Can't wait for CSP to cement these series' place as the best orchestral package arguably ever released in the sample world..


----------



## sllared

Can I just check in and see if anyone's experienced a muffled sound through Solo Flute - Sfz/Stacc/Staccts - Main Mic? TIA


----------



## Bluemount Score

sllared said:


> Can I just check in and see if anyone's experienced a muffled sound through Solo Flute - Sfz/Stacc/Staccts - Main Mic? TIA


Hm can confirm this. Sounds weird. Issue spotted!


----------



## Rob Elliott

sllared said:


> Can I just check in and see if anyone's experienced a muffled sound through Solo Flute - Sfz/Stacc/Staccts - Main Mic? TIA


Great spotting this. I bet Alex is appreciative of all these 'finds'.  History has proven - he'll make it right.


----------



## pawelmorytko

By the way, about the missing alto flute samples, is this an issue for everyone or just some folk? Cause I didn't have any issues when downloading/installing, or find any when playing, but I'm just wondering if I just haven't found them yet and if I will need to go through with the update once it comes out


----------



## Tremendouz

pawelmorytko said:


> By the way, about the missing alto flute samples, is this an issue for everyone or just some folk? Cause I didn't have any issues when downloading/installing, or find any when playing, but I'm just wondering if I just haven't found them yet and if I will need to go through with the update once it comes out


Someone said that *all* samples are missing for certain articulations which seems to indicate it's not happening to everyone cause I haven't noticed anything unusual with the alto flute

EDIT: Seems I was mistaken, see below.


----------



## emasters

Tremendouz said:


> Someone said that *all* samples are missing for certain articulations which seems to indicate it's not happening to everyone cause I haven't noticed anything unusual with the alto flute


Alex said he would release an update that corrects this issue. If you have the Mix mic selected, you won't hear the issue. Select another mic and then select the Marcato articulation - nothing. For now, stick with the Mix mic until the update is released.


----------



## filipjonathan

pawelmorytko said:


> By the way, about the missing alto flute samples, is this an issue for everyone or just some folk? Cause I didn't have any issues when downloading/installing, or find any when playing, but I'm just wondering if I just haven't found them yet and if I will need to go through with the update once it comes out


I didn't have any issues downloading it, but some samples are not there (or just not playing) with different mics.


----------



## Tremendouz

emasters said:


> Alex said he would release an update that corrects this issue. If you have the Mix mic selected, you won't hear the issue. Select another mic and then select the Marcato articulation - nothing. For now, stick with the Mix mic until the update is released.


I had to double check and you're right, it turns out I had only used the mix mic so far for other than plain legato playing.


----------



## pawelmorytko

emasters said:


> Alex said he would release an update that corrects this issue. If you have the Mix mic selected, you won't hear the issue. Select another mic and then select the Marcato articulation - nothing. For now, stick with the Mix mic until the update is released.


Seems you're right, just tested and even on shorts Sforzando, and repetition samples are missing on all other mics, measured reps, and Marcato with or without overlay. Weirdly enough when pressing two notes at the same time on the Marcato patch you get a weird short note sample


----------



## sllared

Bluemount Score said:


> Hm can confirm this. Sounds weird. Issue spotted!


OK, thanks! I'll drop Alex an email shortly to give a heads up.


----------



## kupo15

Go back to the phasing issues between layers, some people mentioned a technique to skip the xfade and instead go full on one layer and use expression, what are they referring to? Mapping volume to expression fader to fake the intensity, dynamic changes (even though its not "proper realistic")?

I still will be using mod wheel to xfade where I can of course, just wondering if its standard practice to use both mod and volume automation? I always thought that volume should be set once for balance and output levels and not used as a tool for dynamics. Though, there are ways to get a louder, transparent sound on an instrument (to a point) in which case I don't know how else to achieve that sound other than a low mod and higher volume


----------



## gohrev

peladio said:


> As expected it's a fantastic library..I'm very happy to support this company and buy everything they release without even listening to demos..
> 
> Pure class all around..no cheap marketing and new product every month..just dedication to quality over quantity and loyalty to their customers..
> 
> Can't wait for CSP to cement these series' place as the best orchestral package arguably ever released in the sample world..



Couldn't agree more!
It's all substance, no talk - just outstanding delivery.


----------



## Jdiggity1

kupo15 said:


> Go back to the phasing issues between layers, some people mentioned a technique to skip the xfade and instead go full on one layer and use expression, what are they referring to? Mapping volume to expression fader to fake the intensity, dynamic changes (even though its not "proper realistic")?
> 
> I still will be using mod wheel to xfade where I can of course, just wondering if its standard practice to use both mod and volume automation? I always thought that volume should be set once for balance and output levels and not used as a tool for dynamics. Though, there are ways to get a louder, transparent sound on an instrument (to a point) in which case I don't know how else to achieve that sound other than a low mod and higher volume


There's an understandable tonal difference between some of the dynamic layers. Thankfully the crossover points are actually quite short, which is necessary to minimize the "2 voices" effect when crossfading.
When I was playing around with my Third Date example (on previous page), I wanted a soft oboe, but I liked the tone of the 2nd (*mf*) dynamic layer more than the natural *p *layer. So I used expression (CC11) to help 'fake' the lower dynamic and swells, instead of crossfading between *p *and *mf *with the modwheel*.*
This is just one of those "midi tricks" that I use on a lot of different libraries, and is not unique to CSW.


----------



## kupo15

Jdiggity1 said:


> There's an understandable tonal difference between some of the dynamic layers. Thankfully the crossover points are actually quite short, which is necessary to minimize the "2 voices" effect when crossfading.
> When I was playing around with my Third Date example (on previous page), I wanted a soft oboe, but I liked the tone of the 2nd (*mf*) dynamic layer more than the natural *p *layer. So I used expression (CC11) to help 'fake' the lower dynamic and swells, instead of crossfading between *p *and *mf *with the modwheel*.*
> This is just one of those "midi tricks" that I use on a lot of different libraries, and is not unique to CSW.


Yep, I understand that. But what are you referring to when you say "expression cc11"? I don't see an expression label there, just KS, velocity, vib, and volume. I'm assuming you simply assigned volume to cc11 and manipulated that or is expression another patch like vibrato?


----------



## borisb2

kupo15 said:


> Go back to the phasing issues between layers, some people mentioned a technique to skip the xfade and instead go full on one layer and use expression





Jdiggity1 said:


> I liked the tone of the 2nd (*mf*) dynamic layer more than the natural *p *layer. So I used expression (CC11) to help 'fake' the lower dynamic and swells, instead of crossfading between *p *and *mf *with the modwheel*.*


exactly.

We shouldnt forget: BWW Exp woodwinds are considered one of the best/realistic/lyrical sounding solo woodwinds. They have exactly 1 velocity layer and riding the modwheel just rides the velocity of 1 sample-layer .. sounds good to me - using it all the time. So the above trick just replicates that for other libraries


----------



## kupo15

borisb2 said:


> exactly.
> 
> We shouldnt forget: BWW Exp woodwinds are considered one of the best/realistic/lyrical sounding solo woodwinds. They have exactly 1 velocity layer and riding the modwheel just rides the velocity of 1 sample-layer .. sounds good to me - using it all the time. So the above trick just replicates that for other libraries


Oh cool, I'm not familiar with that library. That's interesting how its considered one of the best yet it only has one layer. How can you get the timbre difference between the ranges if you only have one layer? And what dynamic would you record them at...forte?

Then it stands to reason that in some regard CSW should be able to be even better sounding since it has two layers. Not only can you xfade if you choose, but you can select either of the two layers for different passages and use the same expression trick BWW does and get even more range out of the instruments, no? I'm assuming BWW simply has more patches like VSL does, baked in crescendos, more articulations at various lengths?


----------



## Jdiggity1

kupo15 said:


> Yep, I understand that. But what are you referring to when you say "expression cc11"? I don't see an expression label there, just KS, velocity, vib, and volume. I'm assuming you simply assigned volume to cc11 and manipulated that or is expression another patch like vibrato?


CC11 is the MIDI standard for "expression". In CSW it is not controlled on the interface, but you can still program midi data for CC11 in your DAW (or with a midi controller device).
In many cases, including this one, CC11 is just another volume control, but the difference is that it leaves the overall volume of the kontakt instrument in tact. ie. It does not move the instrument's volume slider in the top right corner.

Both methods are valid, mind you, and you can choose to use either one for volume automation.
However, CC7 _can _get messy, as the maximum value might actually go above where the volume was set by the developer.
Personally, I use the volume slider in kontakt as a way to set a 'ceiling' (maximum volume) then use CC11 for automation below that ceiling. This way I know I'll never go 'too loud' and distort.



borisb2 said:


> exactly.
> 
> We shouldnt forget: BWW Exp woodwinds are considered one of the best/realistic/lyrical sounding solo woodwinds. They have exactly 1 velocity layer and riding the modwheel just rides the velocity of 1 sample-layer .. sounds good to me - using it all the time. So the above trick just replicates that for other libraries


Yes, EXP B soloists are fantastic for a single dynamic layer. The combination of volume and filter/EQ modulation can get surprisingly good results when faking lower dynamics.


----------



## kupo15

Jdiggity1 said:


> CC11 is the MIDI standard for "expression". In CSW it is not controlled on the interface, but you can still program midi data for CC11 in your DAW (or with a midi controller device).
> In many cases, including this one, CC11 is just another volume control, but the difference is that it leaves the overall volume of the kontakt instrument in tact. ie. It does not move the instrument's volume slider in the top right corner.
> 
> Both methods are valid, mind you, and you can choose to use either one for volume automation.
> However, CC7 _can _get messy, as the maximum value might actually go above where the volume was set by the developer.
> Personally, I use the volume slider in kontakt as a way to set a 'ceiling' (maximum volume) then use CC11 for automation below that ceiling. This way I know I'll never go 'too loud' and distort.
> 
> 
> Yes, EXP B soloists are fantastic for a single dynamic layer. The combination of volume and filter/EQ modulation can get surprisingly good results when faking lower dynamics.


ah thanks for that clarification! Yes I've used cc7 as a dynamic in my early days of mocking things up and it did get super messy! Suddenly I have flutes in the low register that are overpowering the orchestra haha I had no idea about cc11, what it was or how it worked. This is exciting to know. Makes so much sense. When I was mocking this up using the VSL, I used cc7 because they don't have the mod wheel to control dynamic the same way CSW does. I wonder how many layers VSL uses.

The thing I perplexed one is what exactly is the Marcato patch in CS? Is it actually a stand alone patch or is it a manipulation of say, the sustain? Or is sustain a tenuation of marcato without the harsh attack? One of the biggests issues I had with the Pictures mock up was needing the marcato patch for the timbre but the attack was too violent. Even at velocity 0 it has a harsh attack, I ended up having to mod wheel out the attack on each note. There has to be a better way or perhaps I need to get more experience learning what to use when.

Similarly, the sfz patch seemed limited because you can't control the volume on it. Like, I could pretty much replicate the sfz patch with shaping the marcato patch and just had more control. Perhaps with the knowledge of the expression, I can shape the sfz and stacc patches better to produce a better result than shaping the marc


----------



## borisb2

kupo15 said:


> Oh cool, I'm not familiar with that library. That's interesting how its considered one of the best yet it only has one layer. How can you get the timbre difference between the ranges if you only have one layer? And what dynamic would you record them at...forte?


well - no library is perfect. Of course it would be nicer to have a slight timbre change when playing more forte or ff. I guess they (OT) did record more at mf or f to compensate for that. In the end at least they do sound closer to the original than hearing phasing - so it all is a compromise.


----------



## kupo15

borisb2 said:


> well - no library is perfect. Of course it would be nicer to have a slight timbre change when playing more forte or ff. I guess they (OT) did record more at mf or f to compensate for that. In the end at least they do sound closer to the original than hearing phasing - so it all is compromise.


That makes sense. Its good to learn how each library is different and put together in order to learn how to manipulate them the best way. This sticking to a layer and using expression is a great technique to have in my tool belt instead of just relying on mod wheel and xfade alone.

How do you think Alex did that insane trumpet vibrato at the climax of "Arrival" on his site? Trumpet doesn't have a vibrato xfade, so perhaps he faked it wiggling expression?


----------



## BassClef

kupo15 said:


> Yep, I understand that. But what are you referring to when you say "expression cc11"? I don't see an expression label there, just KS, velocity, vib, and volume. I'm assuming you simply assigned volume to cc11 and manipulated that or is expression another patch like vibrato?


To do this... (I use Logic) All of the instruments in this (and most) libraries respond to cc11 which is usually referred to as expression but is actually just a volume control. (different from cc7 that is usually used for the entire track volume) So if I write a midi line for a flute and then want to "lock" it into a dynamic layer to avoid crossfade... I simply draw in a straight cc1 line into the the piano roll in that region, like a value of 40. This will keep all of those notes in the lowest dynamic layer. Then I can use cc11 to increase/decrease the volume. To use this technique you must know the crossfade points for that instrument. Of course this is not ideal when you want a large volume range because you loose the instrument's changing timber as it plays from soft to loud. 

In the example below, you see the yellow line is cc1 set to 40 locking the dynamic range and the faint blue line is cc11 "expressing" the volume!


----------



## Tremendouz

Jdiggity1 said:


> The combination of volume and filter/EQ modulation can get surprisingly good results when faking lower dynamics.


Does the Berlin one do that or are you talking about linking midi CC to your own EQ or something?


----------



## kupo15

BassClef said:


> To do this... (I use Logic) All of the instruments in this (and most) libraries respond to cc11 which is usually referred to as expression but is actually just a volume control. (different from cc7 that is usually used for the entire track volume) So if I write a midi line for a flute and then want to "lock" it into a dynamic layer to avoid crossfade... I simply draw in a straight cc1 line into the the piano roll in that region, like a value of 40. This will keep all of those notes in the lowest dynamic layer. Then I can use cc11 to increase/decrease the volume. To use this technique you must know the crossfade points for that instrument. Of course this is not ideal when you want a large volume range because you loose the instrument's changing timber as it plays from soft to loud.
> 
> In the example below, you see the yellow line is cc1 set to 40 locking the dynamic range and the faint blue line is cc11 "expressing" the volume!


Great demonstration, thank you! Going to have to play around with this. Its a different way of thinking but now what all the videos of people talking about mod wheel and expression is making more sense. Now I can think more about timbre and volume independently instead of thinking they are tied together with the mod wheel without doing something hacky by manipulating the cc7


----------



## BassClef

kupo15 said:


> Great demonstration, thank you! Going to have to play around with this. Its a different way of thinking but now what all the videos of people talking about mod wheel and expression is making more sense. Now I can think more about timbre and volume independently instead of thinking they are tied together with the mod wheel without doing something hacky by manipulating the cc7


Using cc1 and cc11 together is often done. Watch some of the Spitfire videos where they all do it. It really depends on the library's design. Some libraries give you a very wide dynamic range with just cc1. With others you many want to use both simultaneously (both going up and down pretty much together) to get a wider range from softest to loudest. It comes down to your libraries and desired working style.


----------



## Scamper

I've tried myself at a bit of Tchaikovsky and Dance of the Reed Flutes.
Again, the Marcato is flexible enough, that it can almost do the whole flute track on it's own. Now in a bit of context, I still like the OH+Room mic combo the most. I just panned the three solo flutes a bit, but I'm curious how different it would be with three separate solo flutes.


By the way, does anybody have experiences with mockups being removed from Soundcloud, especially classical ones? I've never had this before, but I can't get it on Soundcloud, because it's detected as a recording.

And there's the recording, which was detected: The Nutcracker, Op. 71: VII. Allegro vivo


----------



## Bluemount Score

Scamper said:


> but I can't get it on Soundcloud, because it's detected as a recording.


Lol, I'd take this as a compliment, it sounds too realistic :D

On a serious note, sounds great!! I like the tone of the library here as well


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Scamper said:


> I've tried myself at a bit of Tchaikovsky and Dance of the Reed Flutes.
> Again, the Marcato is flexible enough, that it can almost do the whole flute track on it's own. Now in a bit of context, I still like the OH+Room mic combo the most. I just panned the three solo flutes a bit, but I'm curious how different it would be with three separate solo flutes.
> 
> 
> By the way, does anybody have experiences with mockups being removed from Soundcloud, especially classical ones? I've never had this before, but I can't get it on Soundcloud, because it's detected as a recording.


Lot of background noise (even before the music starts) - do you know where that is coming from? Nice mockup in general though!


----------



## BezO

borisb2 said:


> exactly.
> 
> We shouldnt forget: BWW Exp woodwinds are considered one of the best/realistic/lyrical sounding solo woodwinds. They have exactly 1 velocity layer and riding the modwheel just rides the velocity of 1 sample-layer .. sounds good to me - using it all the time. So the above trick just replicates that for other libraries


Does BWW use any EQ or envelope trickery along with C11 adjustments? I'm not familiar with the lib, but I imagine there'd have to be something else going on for expression rides to sound realistic, no?


----------



## borisb2

mcalis said:


> Tonally the two libraries (BWW and CSW) sound surprisingly similar





Alex Niedt said:


> So I played along to the solo instruments in the legato walkthrough with Berlin Woodwinds Soloists (my absolute favorite woodwinds), and while CSW didn't "beat" it by any means, it certainly sat alongside it beautifully



Thanks!! Thats great to hear - I was wondering about exactly that question .. I'll probably wait with purchasing CSW for a bit (having BWW and the expansions) and save the money for MSS instead 

Are there any snippets/videos already available that compares BWW and CSW?


----------



## borisb2

BezO said:


> Does BWW use any EQ or envelope trickery along with C11 adjustments?


good question .. can do a test when I'm back at the DAW


----------



## Scamper

Bluemount Score said:


> Lol, I'd take this as a compliment, it sounds too realistic :D


I think there are many better ones, but maybe I triggered it with a certain sound profile? :>



ALittleNightMusic said:


> Lot of background noise (even before the music starts) - do you know where that is coming from? Nice mockup in general though!


Yeah, I added some room noise as a background glue. Not sure, if it's a bit much then, but often I think it helps a lot with quiet and sparse orchestration.


----------



## Grizzlymv

can someone post a screenshot of the CC table for the CC58 key switch for CSW? I don't have it yet, but currently reworking my Expression Maps in Cubase and wanted to ensure the CSB, CSS and CSSS I already own are aligned properly with the arts for CSW so I can create in advance the CSW expression map for my template and be ready for when I get it.  I tried to find the manual.pdf on the CSW web site, but I guess you can only have it through the library itself. Thanks in advance.


----------



## pcohen12

Grizzlymv said:


> can someone post a screenshot of the CC table for the CC58 key switch for CSW? I don't have it yet, but currently reworking my Expression Maps in Cubase and wanted to ensure the CSB, CSS and CSSS I already own are aligned properly with the arts for CSW so I can create in advance the CSW expression map for my template and be ready for when I get it.  I tried to find the manual.pdf on the CSW web site, but I guess you can only have it through the library itself. Thanks in advance.


@Grizzlymv Here you go! http://snpy.in/gE67F8


----------



## Grizzlymv

pcohen12 said:


> @Grizzlymv Here you go! http://snpy.in/gE67F8


Thanks a lot!


----------



## Soundbed

Before CSW came out I had started collecting some of the basic "tips" for CSS and Kontakt that tend to come up over and over again (including in this thread – including the previous two posts about the CC table for CC58 ... which starts at 2:53 in the video). So here is that collection, including CSW. Like my last video, many in this group will already be familiar with much of this (some of it is even in the manual and in the official videos). But I have seen several of these questions asked here ... even in the last 20 pages of this thread (!) so it seems worth sharing them here.



0:45 Keyswitching using MIDI pitches 1:15 Saving RAM 1:54 Legato On/Off switch 2:15 Kontakt Keyboard velocity controls 2:53 Keyswitch CC 4:25 Changing controls with the mouse 5:14 Divisi "Trick" 5:53 Multiple Outputs (mic positions) 6:21 Convolution Reverb & Insert Effects 6:59 Trills and adjusting releases 7:29 Measured Repetitions 7:48 Legato & Portamento 10:45 CSW Vibrato 13:09 Outro


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Scamper said:


> I've tried myself at a bit of Tchaikovsky and Dance of the Reed Flutes.
> Again, the Marcato is flexible enough, that it can almost do the whole flute track on it's own. Now in a bit of context, I still like the OH+Room mic combo the most. I just panned the three solo flutes a bit, but I'm curious how different it would be with three separate solo flutes.
> 
> 
> By the way, does anybody have experiences with mockups being removed from Soundcloud, especially classical ones? I've never had this before, but I can't get it on Soundcloud, because it's detected as a recording.
> 
> And there's the recording, which was detected: The Nutcracker, Op. 71: VII. Allegro vivo


I had the same problem with my Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake mockup. A semitone lower or higher may bypass this system.


----------



## redlite

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I had the same problem with my Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake mockup. A semitone lower or higher may bypass this system.


One of my favorite mockups of all time, absolutely fantastic work! Made me want to buy the whole Cinematic Studio Series... Can't wait for a version feat. CSW


----------



## borisb2




----------



## Architekton

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I had the same problem with my Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake mockup. A semitone lower or higher may bypass this system.


And I had same problem with Satie - Gymnopedie orchestra edit. I tried lowering it for semitone and it didnt work. :(

Anyway, CSW sounds amazing, really great tone and flexibility!


----------



## I like music

Ah, given that there's a Dance of the Reeds flute comparison here between CSW + BWW, might as well link to the Infinite Woodwinds version that is on Aaron's site. You can hear it in the 3 rooms that come with the library.









Infinite Woodwinds - Tchaikovsky's "Dance of the Reed Flutes" — Aaron Venture


Listen to Tchaikovsky's "Dance of the Reed Flutes" performed with Infinite Woodwinds and Infinite Brass! Preview all the rooms, download the MIDI and learn more about the performance in general.




www.aaronventure.com


----------



## Casiquire

I like music said:


> Ah, given that there's a Dance of the Reeds flute comparison here between CSW + BWW, might as well link to the Infinite Woodwinds version that is on Aaron's site. You can hear it in the 3 rooms that come with the library.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds - Tchaikovsky's "Dance of the Reed Flutes" — Aaron Venture
> 
> 
> Listen to Tchaikovsky's "Dance of the Reed Flutes" performed with Infinite Woodwinds and Infinite Brass! Preview all the rooms, download the MIDI and learn more about the performance in general.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aaronventure.com


Where's the BWW one?


----------



## I like music

Casiquire said:


> Where's the BWW one?


I didn't hear it but someone mentioned there being one on here (lazy me, I probably skim read it and assumed one already existed)...
Do you have BWW? 😂 Cos I have a mission for you, should you choose to accept it!


----------



## OttoPilot33

Architekton said:


> And I had same problem with Satie - Gymnopedie orchestra edit. I tried lowering it for semitone and it didnt work. :(
> 
> Anyway, CSW sounds amazing, really great tone and flexibility!


Hi, I'm a newbie here and I'm not a pro at all, but just an amateur "musician" who loves to make musical mockups. I'm not sure whether you refer to this or not, but I made my own version of Gymnopédie and I used, just like in other of my renderings, a technique that let's me employ the same sampled instrument a due for unisons without phasing problems, not ideal at all, but a viable workaround in many cases.
I assign a CC to the tune knob in Kontakt (#27, for instance) and in the Automation page I go to MIDI Automation, I select CC 27 and enter 50 for From and 47.22 for To for tuning two semitones down (I use 52.78 for two semitones up). Then I transpose all the notes in the track two semitones up (only one semitone doesn't work normally because most libraries' samples are made every one whole tone). Alternatively, I transpose up the notes in the track only when playing unison with the other track and bring the CC to 127 to change the tuning one whole tone down as needed. This doesn't work perfectly well all the time because varying tuning is no instantaneous in Kontakt and it may produce a portamento effect, but if there are rests between notes it does work well. I have not tried this with CSW yet because I just downloaded it, so I don't know if this works with it.
The ideal solution would be that library producers would always include two solo instruments (at least) of each kind (Oboe I and Oboe II, for instance). I never use a2 samples because I create MIDI tracks for each instrument as per the score strictly. So I would happily trade a2 samples for another separate solo instrument. Sampled libraries producers, you can keep your ensamble samples, give me more solo instruments instead!
This is my version of Satie's "Gymnopédie" and also Frederick Delius' "On Hearing the First Cuckoo In Spring" in which I also used this technique:


----------



## Scamper

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I had the same problem with my Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake mockup. A semitone lower or higher may bypass this system.


Looks like they're really hunting down those Tchaikovsky mockups. I had to relisten to your Swan Lake mockup, it's pretty fantastic.
Good idea about changing the key of the track. Doesn't feel quite right, but I'll try it.


I like music said:


> I didn't hear it but someone mentioned there being one on here (lazy me, I probably skim read it and assumed one already existed)...


Is it maybe the one by @AlexanderSchiborr? 




__





Dance of the Reed Flutes - Tschaikowsky - Close enough to live?


Hej there, I tried to mimic a live performance and tried get as close as possible to the real thing with samples but this time I tried to limit myself only using Berlin Legacy Woodwinds and Berlin Strings. The further B - Section comes next week with the recapitulation ending part as well. Any...




vi-control.net




This one was really good, but it's not up anymore. I'd love to hear a BWW version too.


----------



## I like music

Scamper said:


> Looks like they're really hunting down those Tchaikovsky mockups. I had to relisten to your Swan Lake mockup, it's pretty fantastic.
> Good idea about changing the key of the track. Doesn't feel quite right, but I'll try it.
> 
> Is it maybe the one by @AlexanderSchiborr?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dance of the Reed Flutes - Tschaikowsky - Close enough to live?
> 
> 
> Hej there, I tried to mimic a live performance and tried get as close as possible to the real thing with samples but this time I tried to limit myself only using Berlin Legacy Woodwinds and Berlin Strings. The further B - Section comes next week with the recapitulation ending part as well. Any...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one was really good, but it's not up anymore. I'd love to hear a BWW version too.


Oh yes! Now I remember. He did a very good one. Where has he gone?


----------



## BMW_84

Has Alex indicated when an update would be released regarding some of the issues identified? Trying to decide if I should wait to purchase until then instead of redownloading later. Not in a rush or anything.

I have Cinewinds to hold me over I guess.


----------



## Scamper

I like music said:


> Oh yes! Now I remember. He did a very good one. Where has he gone?


I think he moved to RedBanned.com.


----------



## I like music

Scamper said:


> I think he moved to RedBanned.com.


Got it. I do have an account there but never used it. Might check it out.


----------



## WindcryMusic

What's the consensus (if any) at this point regarding some of the sections of CSW being tuned to 442 Hz rather than 440 Hz? My concern about that tuning issue is the most significant of three things that are thus far holding me back from completing my Cinematic Studio collection.

(The other reasons I find myself holding off on CSW are both time-based: I want to see if/when the various other reported bugs get addressed, and I also want to see if the opinions of CSW's tone quality degrade substantially once people start trying to use the library, as seemed to be the case with opinions of CSB, which initially was hailed as having a fantastic sound, whereas now there seem to be a lot of persons asserting that its tone is average or even subpar. For what little it's worth, I still think CSB sounds really good personally.)


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

WindcryMusic said:


> What's the consensus (if any) at this point regarding some of the sections of CSW being tuned to 442 Hz rather than 440 Hz? My concern about that tuning issue is the most significant of three things that are thus far holding me back from completing my Cinematic Studio collection.
> 
> (The other reasons I find myself holding off on CSW are both time-based: I want to see if/when the various other reported bugs get addressed, and I also want to see if the opinions of CSW's tone quality degrade substantially once people start trying to use the library, as seemed to be the case with opinions of CSB, which initially was hailed as having a fantastic sound, whereas now there seem to be a lot of persons asserting that its tone is average or even subpar. For what little it's worth, I still think CSB sounds really good personally.)


From what I've tried so far, the higher flute notes were a tad sharp, so I couldn't use it in a song yet. I've sent a message to support! Otherwise, the playability and tone are all lovely so far.


----------



## Pianolando

WindcryMusic said:


> What's the consensus (if any) at this point regarding some of the sections of CSW being tuned to 442 Hz rather than 440 Hz? My concern about that tuning issue is the most significant of three things that are thus far holding me back from completing my Cinematic Studio collection.
> 
> (The other reasons I find myself holding off on CSW are both time-based: I want to see if/when the various other reported bugs get addressed, and I also want to see if the opinions of CSW's tone quality degrade substantially once people start trying to use the library, as seemed to be the case with opinions of CSB, which initially was hailed as having a fantastic sound, whereas now there seem to be a lot of persons asserting that its tone is average or even subpar. For what little it's worth, I still think CSB sounds really good personally.)



In my opinion, in real life flutists are very often sharp, or really tuning more umtempered than tempered. The higher in the range the the higher relative pitch. And don’t get me started on sharp clarinets (obviously without any vibrato). 
I think if you try it in context it won’t be so bad, actually it might sound more natural than if they played 100% tempered. 
But, otherwise AT is always an option. Then it will get extremely in tune but also somewhat dead


----------



## coprhead6

My price for BWW Exp A and C is $40 less than CSW...
But I might just pick CSW up instead 

Also yeah, the Debussy Trio with flute, harp, and viola is extremely tricky for intonation. Three different methods / mechanisms of intonation all playing together


----------



## NoamL

Solo flute + oboe playing unison in the upper register ( a common doubling) is just unusable for me at the moment "out of the box". I detuned the Flute in Kontakt and then put some pitch correction as an additional guardrail. Careful comparison with the other winds & other libraries tell me the flute & flutes a2 are too sharp, while the other woodwinds in CSW don't have this problem. No matter how sharp flutes get "naturally" at the upper register, they wouldn't play out of tune with the other woodwinds in a unison!

However - bigger picture - this library is stunning and emotive. I am happy to work through the issues because the results in some cases sound as good to me as hiring a live soloist. The oboe is incredible. I'm growing to like the Mix mic more and more. CSB and CSW are really working well in my template right next to Abbey Road Orchestral Foundations. I use the Spitfire library for basic sustains and break out Alex's libraries for playing melodies and gestures.


----------



## filipjonathan

NoamL said:


> Solo flute + oboe playing unison in the upper register ( a common doubling) is just unusable for me at the moment "out of the box".


Just tried this. D5 and E5 are especially painful! Mind you, only with the mod wheel all the way up.


----------



## Noc

Finally figured out why the “coming soon” ads haven’t changed:






(j/k can’t wait to get my hands on it once my wallet allows it)


----------



## ethormusic

NoamL said:


> Solo flute + oboe playing unison in the upper register ( a common doubling) is just unusable for me at the moment "out of the box". I detuned the Flute in Kontakt and then put some pitch correction as an additional guardrail. Careful comparison with the other winds & other libraries tell me the flute & flutes a2 are too sharp, while the other woodwinds in CSW don't have this problem. No matter how sharp flutes get "naturally" at the upper register, they wouldn't play out of tune with the other woodwinds in a unison!
> 
> However - bigger picture - this library is stunning and emotive. I am happy to work through the issues because the results in some cases sound as good to me as hiring a live soloist. The oboe is incredible. I'm growing to like the Mix mic more and more. CSB and CSW are really working well in my template right next to Abbey Road Orchestral Foundations. I use the Spitfire library for basic sustains and break out Alex's libraries for playing melodies and gestures.



The tone of these instruments is incredible. I'm finishing up a piece that is more woodwind-centric but also exposes how sharp the flute and piccolo end up sounding on the marcatos. The clarinet is a tad sharp too on shorter articulations which throws off my plan to use Infinite Woodwinds as the "second chairs."


----------



## gohrev

I love the sound of the woodwinds, but the "two instruments playing" sound when crossing layers is _really_ obvious when playing solo.


----------



## Tremendouz

berlin87 said:


> I love the sound of the woodwinds, but the "two instruments playing" sound when crossing layers is _really_ obvious when playing solo.


Plus that release sample in the bassoon at 33 secs, so loud

As a workaround you could stick to one dynamic layer for one phrase and use expression for a relatively phasing-free yet still expressive performance.


----------



## gohrev

Tremendouz said:


> Plus that release sample in the bassoon at 33 secs, so loud
> 
> As a workaround you could stick to one dynamic layer for one phrase and use expression for a relatively phasing-free yet still expressive performance.


I tried that, @Tremendouz (not in the little example I posted), but it sounds _off _in a solo. I guess it wouldn't be too obvious mixed with other instruments, let alone an entire orchestra. 

That said, I am a tad surprised, given how wonderfully consistent the strings (and even brass, to a certain extent), fade out to complete _niente. _

Not that I would expect that for WWs, save flutes, but the switch from one layer to the next is a bit harsh.


----------



## Bluemount Score

berlin87 said:


> I love the sound of the woodwinds, but the "two instruments playing" sound when crossing layers is _really_ obvious when playing solo.


Hm it is indeed..

(quick side note... the link in your signature doesn't work)


----------



## ethormusic

Here's a little something that I threw together this week, still WIP in terms of some musical things I still want to touch up, and mixing. 

CSW is incredibly inspiring and because of my familiarity with the rest of the Cinematic Studio Series, I can just focus on writing rather than spending time learning how to use CSW.

Infinite Woodwinds are joining CSW as the 'second chair' players in some spots of the piece. Percussion is from BBCSO, timpani is from Cineperc). Everything else is from Cinematic Studio Series. There is some subtle reverb and some minor EQing that I put on, so it cannot be considered OOTB sound.

I'll let you figure out where the woodwinds are sharp. To me, there are specific spots where it's noticeable, but oddly enough, I'm not really bothered by it. Instruments playing sharp tend to sound... less offensive... than instruments that are flat in an ensemble.

I tried to make the CSS marcato work, but it's just not quite as convincing as the rest of the instruments, at least to my ears. The update that Alex Wallbank is working on will hopefully improve things big time for faster passages with CSS.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

ethormusic said:


> Here's a little something that I threw together this week, still WIP in terms of some musical things I still want to touch up, and mixing.
> 
> CSW is incredibly inspiring and because of my familiarity with the rest of the Cinematic Studio Series, I can just focus on writing rather than spending time learning how to use CSW.
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds are joining CSW as the 'second chair' players in some spots of the piece. Percussion is from BBCSO, timpani is from Cineperc). Everything else is from Cinematic Studio Series. There is some subtle reverb and some minor EQing that I put on, so it cannot be considered OOTB sound.
> 
> I'll let you figure out where the woodwinds are sharp. To me, there are specific spots where it's noticeable, but oddly enough, I'm not really bothered by it. Instruments playing sharp tend to sound... less offensive... than instruments that are flat in an ensemble.
> 
> I tried to make the CSS marcato work, but it's just not quite as convincing as the rest of the instruments, at least to my ears. The update that Alex Wallbank is working on will hopefully improve things big time for faster passages with CSS.



How are you liking CSW vs. Infinite Woodwinds? I have IW and have been comparing them to the CSW demos and feel that CSW’s tone is far superior. IW has good playability but it seems CSW’s legato is quite flexible?


----------



## filipjonathan

ethormusic said:


> Here's a little something that I threw together this week, still WIP in terms of some musical things I still want to touch up, and mixing.
> 
> CSW is incredibly inspiring and because of my familiarity with the rest of the Cinematic Studio Series, I can just focus on writing rather than spending time learning how to use CSW.
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds are joining CSW as the 'second chair' players in some spots of the piece. Percussion is from BBCSO, timpani is from Cineperc). Everything else is from Cinematic Studio Series. There is some subtle reverb and some minor EQing that I put on, so it cannot be considered OOTB sound.
> 
> I'll let you figure out where the woodwinds are sharp. To me, there are specific spots where it's noticeable, but oddly enough, I'm not really bothered by it. Instruments playing sharp tend to sound... less offensive... than instruments that are flat in an ensemble.
> 
> I tried to make the CSS marcato work, but it's just not quite as convincing as the rest of the instruments, at least to my ears. The update that Alex Wallbank is working on will hopefully improve things big time for faster passages with CSS.


This was so exciting to listen! I love the harmonies! Great job!!


----------



## ethormusic

ALittleNightMusic said:


> How are you liking CSW vs. Infinite Woodwinds? I have IW and have been comparing them to the CSW demos and feel that CSW’s tone is far superior. IW has good playability but it seems CSW’s legato is quite flexible?


Infinite Woodwinds sounds _decent_. But it was never going to be my #1 woodwind library. It's useful for runs and super agile stuff, as well as more of a contextual/blending library. And if you have Infinite Brass you can write concert band music.

The reason why Infinite sounds very sterile (imo) is because of the close mic'ed, bone dry recordings for the instruments. Aaron Venture explained that he did this in order to be able to phase align everything, including crossfade dynamics. The tone is hit or miss on both IW and IB, and I wouldn't use it for soloist passages.

CSW tone-wise is even better than I could have imagined. It can also handle runs much better than I thought it would.


----------



## kupo15

Are the a2 patches exactly the same as layering 2 solos? I tried comparing the two and my judgement is that they do sound a bit different. I'm in the same boat that I'd like to layer multiple solos instead of an a2 patch but might want to stick with a2 patches when its needed for the sound. Just wanted to hear what other people's thoughts are on this


----------



## Pianolando

kupo15 said:


> Are the a2 patches exactly the same as layering 2 solos? I tried comparing the two and my judgement is that they do sound a bit different. I'm in the same boat that I'd like to layer multiple solos instead of an a2 patch but might want to stick with a2 patches when its needed for the sound. Just wanted to hear what other people's thoughts are on this



a2 is not the same as layering two solos, as they are recordings of two different players, playing together. This definitely yields a different result than stacking the same samples twice.


----------



## VivianaSings

I'm not sure I ever understood the concept of a2 samples when you could have just provided a set of samples of just the second player. If you want a2, then copy the midi to both tracks. But I'd rather have a second player. 

It's not just Alex who does this, I've seen it in other libraries and it's always a head scratcher.


----------



## Bluemount Score

VivianaSings said:


> I'm not sure I ever understood the concept of a2 samples when you could have just provided a set of samples of just the second player. If you want a2, then copy the midi to both tracks. But I'd rather have a second player.
> 
> It's not just Alex who does this, I've seen it in other libraries and it's always a head scratcher.


It sounds differently. Nothing you would recognize in a dense mix with other instruments, but the audio waves of two players playing at the same time form a different audio signal than layering two seperately recorded solo players. They interact with eachother. Similar to the waves of two stones thrown on a flat water surface side by side.


----------



## ryans

Bluemount Score said:


> It sounds differently. Nothing you would recognize in a dense mix with other instruments, but the audio waves of two players playing at the same time form a different audio signal than layering two seperately recorded solo players. They interact with eachother. Similar to the waves of two stones thrown on a flat water surface side by side.


Completely true.

That said, I must admit I don't use woodwind a2 patches very often... maybe for flourishes and runs but then they're usually buried in a mix and you can't tell whether it's an a2 or a solo or even an ensemble patch (gasp)

So maybe just me.. but I don't use an exposed a2 woodwind sound in my orchestrations very often... like hardly at all.

Brass, totally different story.


----------



## Bluemount Score

ryans said:


> That said, I must admit I don't use woodwind a2 patches very often... maybe for flourishes and runs but then they're usually buried in a mix and you can't tell whether it's an a2 or a solo or even an ensemble patch (gasp)
> 
> So maybe just me.. but I don't use an exposed a2 woodwind sound in my orchestrations very often... like hardly at all.
> 
> Brass, totally different story.


It's mostly solo instruments for me, too. I feel like the true life of exposed beautiful and expressive woodwind lines lies in solos most of the time. I just like the sound way more, I came to realize. Even for layering with other instruments (strings etc., doubling the melody) I rarely use a2 / a3 patches.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

Bluemount Score said:


> It's mostly solo instruments for me, too. I feel like the true life of exposed beautiful and expressive woodwind lines lies in solos most of the time. I just like the sound way more, I came to realize. Even for layering with other instruments (strings etc., doubling the melody) I rarely use a2 / a3 patches.


Same here


----------



## Loïc D

ethormusic said:


> Infinite Woodwinds sounds _decent_. But it was never going to be my #1 woodwind library. It's useful for runs and super agile stuff, as well as more of a contextual/blending library. And if you have Infinite Brass you can write concert band music.
> 
> The reason why Infinite sounds very sterile (imo) is because of the close mic'ed, bone dry recordings for the instruments. Aaron Venture explained that he did this in order to be able to phase align everything, including crossfade dynamics. The tone is hit or miss on both IW and IB, and I wouldn't use it for soloist passages.
> 
> CSW tone-wise is even better than I could have imagined. It can also handle runs much better than I thought it would.


I don't own CSB, but as a new owner of Infinite Woodwinds, I don't define them as sterile. If you use different note lengths, velocity, attack and modulation, you can produce something lively.
To me it sounds more than decent (ok ok, I come from Spitfire Studio WW).

So I'm really curious at how good CSW sounds in exposed passage.


----------



## Tremendouz

Just found this neat demo track, could be useful for someone


----------



## ansthenia

Doubling a woodwind with another of the same type is something I rarely do in real orchestration, pretty much exclusively for accompaniment roles. You lose some of the personality and expressivity of a solo woodwind - a duller less personal sound in exchange for a tad more power. Not a worthy trade imo.

With samples especially, I would MUCH rather cheat and just turn up the volume of the solo line to give it a little more power than resort to unison patches.


----------



## rottoy

I took a crack at rendering Anakin's Theme using *Cinematic Studio Woodwinds,*
together with *CineWinds Core.
CSW* is using the "Mix" mic, *CWC* is using the "Close" mic with a bespoke IR.

The whole mix has got some EQ and some reverb to push it back a bit
(ValhallaRoom and Logic Space Designer).



EDIT:
Below is an alternative mix of the one in the video above,
where instead of the *CSW Solo Flute* and *2 Flutes* making an "*a3*" section,
I combine the *CSW Solo Flute* with the *CineWinds Core Flute* to make an "*a2*" section.


----------



## ethormusic

filipjonathan said:


> This was so exciting to listen! I love the harmonies! Great job!!


Thank you!


----------



## Marlon Brown

ethormusic said:


> Here's a little something that I threw together this week, still WIP in terms of some musical things I still want to touch up, and mixing.
> 
> CSW is incredibly inspiring and because of my familiarity with the rest of the Cinematic Studio Series, I can just focus on writing rather than spending time learning how to use CSW.
> 
> Infinite Woodwinds are joining CSW as the 'second chair' players in some spots of the piece. Percussion is from BBCSO, timpani is from Cineperc). Everything else is from Cinematic Studio Series. There is some subtle reverb and some minor EQing that I put on, so it cannot be considered OOTB sound.
> 
> I'll let you figure out where the woodwinds are sharp. To me, there are specific spots where it's noticeable, but oddly enough, I'm not really bothered by it. Instruments playing sharp tend to sound... less offensive... than instruments that are flat in an ensemble.
> 
> I tried to make the CSS marcato work, but it's just not quite as convincing as the rest of the instruments, at least to my ears. The update that Alex Wallbank is working on will hopefully improve things big time for faster passages with CSS.


Cool piece!


----------



## kupo15

Has anyone tried replicating some of the demos Alex did? I'm trying to do a simple run from *here* but can't quite get the correct blending. It seems like I can't get CSS to be strong enough and there isn't enough smear. There is too much front end pop on each note, the pic just sticks out too much. All 3 are in marcatto overlay which I'm sure Alex did as well, just doesn't have the zing and I'm not sure why


----------



## Soundbed

kupo15 said:


> Has anyone tried replicating some of the demos Alex did? I'm trying to do a simple run from *here* but can't quite get the correct blending. It seems like I can't get CSS to be strong enough and there isn't enough smear. There is too much front end pop on each note, the pic just sticks out too much. All 3 are in marcatto overlay which I'm sure Alex did as well, just doesn't have the zing and I'm not sure why


Wasn't he demonstrating an upcoming runs articulation? Or am I mistaken?


----------



## kupo15

Soundbed said:


> Wasn't he demonstrating an upcoming runs articulation? Or am I mistaken?


Nope, these runs were earlier in the video before he mentioned that. It was still showing off how the marcato patch can be used for runs and how it can be interchanged with all CSS intruments. I assume he wasn't demoing the new runs patch coming soon


----------



## Marlon Brown

Scamper said:


> I've tried myself at a bit of Tchaikovsky and Dance of the Reed Flutes.
> Again, the Marcato is flexible enough, that it can almost do the whole flute track on it's own. Now in a bit of context, I still like the OH+Room mic combo the most. I just panned the three solo flutes a bit, but I'm curious how different it would be with three separate solo flutes.
> 
> 
> By the way, does anybody have experiences with mockups being removed from Soundcloud, especially classical ones? I've never had this before, but I can't get it on Soundcloud, because it's detected as a recording.
> 
> And there's the recording, which was detected: The Nutcracker, Op. 71: VII. Allegro vivo


It's so nice to hear actual classical demos. Need more of these! Great job btw!!


----------



## AlainTH

Bluemount Score said:


> It sounds differently. Nothing you would recognize in a dense mix with other instruments, but the audio waves of two players playing at the same time form a different audio signal than layering two seperately recorded solo players. They interact with eachother. Similar to the waves of two stones thrown on a flat water surface side by side.


?? so they interact when you play the two solo tracks......


----------



## jononotbono

Now people have had CSW for a few days, what’s people’s verdict? What does this bring to the table if you already have Berlin Winds (both Legacy and Revive), Spitfire Symphonic Winds, and Cinewinds?

Is it just as consistent as CSS and CSSS?


----------



## ned3000

jononotbono said:


> Now people have had CSW for a few days, what’s people’s verdict? What does this bring to the table if you already have Berlin Winds (both Legacy and Revive), Spitfire Symphonic Winds, and Cinewinds?
> 
> Is it just as consistent as CSS and CSSS?


I have all those and suspect that CSW will be getting a lot of use moving forward. I like the sound of SSW quite a bit, but sometimes feel like it's a little clunky to use and hard to get specific parts just right.

Haven't gotten too far into CSW yet, but one thing that's extremely impressive is the runs w/ the legato/marcato setting. In the past I've resorted to using pre-recroded runs (BWW and Hollywoodwinds) from time to time and always hated doing it. To my ear, played runs in CSW sound as good or better and are of course more flexible.

Consistency seems up to the very high standard of CSS so far, but sometimes it takes working with a library for a while to stumble upon the problematic bits.


----------



## Robin

I'm not sure if this is by design and if it is, it feels a bit counter intuitive but hitting the first note in the Sustain/Legato patch with soft velocity creates a noticeably harder attack than hitting it with hard velocity. When you hit it hard, it feels almost like a small fade into the sound. Haven't tried with all patches yet, but noticed it on the double reeds (English Horn, Oboe, Bassoon). Can anyone confirm?

Having said that, I like that there is a possibility to have a softer attack, it's just that I would expect it the other way around regarding initial velocities.

Edit: Not noticeable on all notes but quite clear for instance on Ab3 on the solo Oboe in all velocity layers.


----------



## gohrev

Robin said:


> I'm not sure if this is by design and if it is, it feels a bit counter intuitive but hitting the first note in the Sustain/Legato patch with soft velocity creates a noticeably harder attack than hitting it with hard velocity. When you hit it hard, it feels almost like a small fade into the sound. Haven't tried with all patches yet, but noticed it on the double reeds (English Horn, Oboe, Bassoon). Can anyone confirm?
> 
> Having said that, I like that there is a possibility to have a softer attack, it's just that I would expect it the other way around regarding initial velocities.
> 
> Edit: Not noticeable on all notes but quite clear for instance on Ab3 on the solo Oboe in all velocity layers.


yes, I noticed that too - and even some random hard attacks in a legato passage (say third note in a legato phrase will sound as if it was starting a new phrase)


----------



## Bluemount Score

AlainTH said:


> ?? so they interact when you play the two solo tracks......


No, you missed my point. Let me repeat: "_the audio waves of two players playing at the same time form a different audio signal than layering two seperately recorded solo players. They interact with eachother. Similar to the waves of two stones thrown on a flat water surface side by side."_

I'm not talking about the players interacting with eachother when they play together (even though that's a point to a certain degree, too). I'm talking about the effect different audio sources playing simultaneously have on eachother, because of how sound diffusion works in a room. It's hard to imagine, hence the comparison with water waves. This is a hurdle that sampling has not yet overcome, and among other things, why sample music never really sounds as real as the real recording of an entire orchestra. This would, in an extreme example, become clearer if you'd layer 16 solo violin tracks to simulate a whole section. Try it or trust me, it does not sound like 16 violins recorded at once.


----------



## AlainTH

i understand, i wondered if that when you play tracks simultaneously you play the differents audio source you speak of and they 'interact' at this moment (in your daw). (you superpose the waves producted by your stones and recreate the modulations). https://www.thoughtco.com/interference-diffraction-principle-of-superposition-2699048


----------



## Bluemount Score

AlainTH said:


> i understand, i said that when you play tracks simultaneously you play the differents audio source you speak of and they 'interact' at this moment.


That's true - however a different story and not the same thing as if they are recorded at once

*EDIT - because of how the room treats the sound

The article you linked is good though.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Just now did a tuning test of the instruments myself using a tuner plugin (one that displays the pitch, not one that changes it).
For now, I will put my Kontakt Master Tune to 438Hz when using CSW. It's not perfect and could be fine tuned, but closer to the other libraries of the series / 440Hz recordings. The solo flute stood out as the instrument that is out of tune the most, others not as badly. It gets worse in the upper register and dynamics, even though that's partly natural, as I heard here. All the other libraries from the series don't have this issue, so I can confirm what folks said in this thread before.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Another smaller thing I noticed: The Solo Clarinets Measured Trems sound a little too much like single notes, the repetition is not very pronounced and sounds more like a delay (especially on high notes). The further the mic position, the less you hear a repitition, which makes sense. Close and OH are fine. With Main and Room it sounds wrong. Again, rather minor issue

EDIT: Actually it's a thing with multiple instruments, not just the clarinet. It might even be natural that way, but to me it worked / sounded better with e.g. the solo flute


----------



## constaneum

Loving CSW so far. It's my current main woodwinds library. Loving it way better than Berlin Woodwinds. Here's a piece of music done with major Cinematic Studio series products.


----------



## wst3

AlainTH said:


> i understand, i wondered if that when you play tracks simultaneously you play the differents audio source you speak of and they 'interact' at this moment (in your daw). (you superpose the waves producted by your stones and recreate the modulations). https://www.thoughtco.com/interference-diffraction-principle-of-superposition-2699048


My experience only, but no, two sampled tracks, even if they are samples of different instruments, do not interact in the same way as two instruments recorded together.

Part of that is "mixing" the two instruments acoustically instead of electronically. And I think (??) part of it is the two musicians reacting, even if subconsciously, to each other.

Regardless of why, to my ears an A2 patch sounds different than two solo patches played together.

So different? Yes! And I do love the sound.

Do I use it? Again yes, sometimes.

Do I think anyone can hear the difference once the track is mixed, and (heaven forbid) compressed into an MP3? No, not in this lifetime.

So if I use an A2 patch I am using it for me, and I realize that it has almost no value beyond whatever inspiration or excitement it brings to me.

Not unlike insisting on recording electric guitars through pedals and amplifiers and into microphones. Not unlike auditioning different guitars, pedals, amplifiers, and microphones to find "that" sound.

Does anyone else care? Unlikely. Can anyone (myself included) tell that a track used a real or virtual amplifier? Equally unlikely.

And it isn't just recording... until maybe a year ago I insisted on dragging all that gear out to gigs. I was an idiot! The Line6 Helix and an expression pedal fit in a backpack. I can walk in with a guitar in one hand and the backpack on my back! Sadly I still bring a couple guitars, but one of these days I'll probably get a Variax and put an end to that too.


----------



## Illico

constaneum said:


> Loving CSW so far. It's my currently main woodwinds library. Loving it way better than Berlin Woodwinds. Here's a piece of music done with major Cinematic Studio series products.



On first minute, seems shorts are out of tempo sync (Winds and Strings)
Nevertheless, it is a very beautiful piece.


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## constaneum

Illico said:


> On first minute, seems shorts are out of tempo sync (Winds and Strings)
> Nevertheless, it is a very beautiful piece.


Right. The shorts of cinematic studio products vs the rest. Should have adjusted the shorts to the front a bit. Gonna adjust tomorrow. It's almost 11pm here. Ahhah. Thanks for highlighting.


----------



## neblix

AlainTH said:


> i understand, i wondered if that when you play tracks simultaneously you play the differents audio source you speak of and they 'interact' at this moment (in your daw). (you superpose the waves producted by your stones and recreate the modulations). https://www.thoughtco.com/interference-diffraction-principle-of-superposition-2699048


That is not how DAW's work. DAW's do not simulate three dimensional acoustic waves crashing into each other.


----------



## Erik

Hi folks,
Some members have asked for comparison tracks. I have made one of the large walkthrough fro Alex, thank you Alex for doing that btw.

The basic sound of CSW is gorgeous, but exposed there are a.o. regularly inevitable crossfade issues. I have tried to avoid this issue with _other _libs, sample based.

*[edit - except alto flute and bass clarinet (Sofia Woodwinds) all other ww: Sonivox Orchestral Companion Woodwinds]*

It took some time to be honest, I guess more than with CSW, but I hope to have made some nice alternative examples here.

I hope you'll enjoy, all you CSW fans here!

0:00 Solo Clarinet: Normal legato
0:40 Solo Clarinet: Fast legato
1:10 Solo Oboe: Normal legato
1:51 Solo Oboe: Fast Legato
2:30 Solo Bassoon: Normal legato
3:06 Solo Bassoon: Fast legato
3:29 Solo Flute: Normal legato
4:09 Solo Flute: Fast legato
4:43 Solo Alto Flute: Normal legato
5:21 Solo Alto Flute: Fast legato
5:49 Solo Cor Anglais: Normal legato
6:38 Solo Cor Anglais: Fast legato
7:19 Solo Bass Clarinet: Normal legato
8:23 Solo Bass Clarinet: Fast legato
9:14 Solo Piccolo: Normal legato
10:08 Solo Piccolo: Fast legato
10:56 Solo Contrabassoon: Normal legato
12:01 Solo Contrabassoon: Fast legato

combine both tracks in your DAW for the correct time indication (the original was too large)


----------



## Igor Sena

constaneum said:


> Loving CSW so far. It's my current main woodwinds library. Loving it way better than Berlin Woodwinds. Here's a piece of music done with major Cinematic Studio series products.
> 
> all






constaneum said:


> Loving CSW so far. It's my current main woodwinds library. Loving it way better than Berlin Woodwinds. Here's a piece of music done with major Cinematic Studio series products.



Sweet piece right there. It would fit a videogame really well. 

Hope you don't mind me pointing out but in the beginning the shorts seem to be off timing. I don't know if it was intentional to have a more loose feeling in the following sections or if you noticed their timing being off ( it's easier for us to lose perspective when we create music since we listen to it over and over and often times what was bad ends up sounding nice and vice versa). 

If you end up finish it I would love to see the final result. Great job you did there.


----------



## Eptesicus

constaneum said:


> Loving CSW so far. It's my current main woodwinds library. Loving it way better than Berlin Woodwinds. Here's a piece of music done with major Cinematic Studio series products.




Lovely (apart from the out of time bits at the start as someone else started out).

The end with the little woodwind flurries/fast arpeggio passages really showcases CSW well. Few wind libraries could do that as convincingly in my opinion.


----------



## GingerMaestro

With Easter fast approaching...Here Comes Peter Cotton Tail.....


----------



## constaneum

Igor Sena said:


> Sweet piece right there. It would fit a videogame really well.
> 
> Hope you don't mind me pointing out but in the beginning the shorts seem to be off timing. I don't know if it was intentional to have a more loose feeling in the following sections or if you noticed their timing being off ( it's easier for us to lose perspective when we create music since we listen to it over and over and often times what was bad ends up sounding nice and vice versa).
> 
> If you end up finish it I would love to see the final result. Great job you did there.


Yea. The shorts delay. Should have adjusted the short notes to the front a bit. Will do that today. 😄


----------



## constaneum

I've corrected the delay. here's the updated.


----------



## Illico

constaneum said:


> I've corrected the delay. here's the updated.



Well done !!


----------



## constaneum

Illico said:


> Well done !!


thanks. =)


----------



## ridgero

Holymoly, did someone hear that?


----------



## kupo15

ridgero said:


> Holymoly, did someone hear that?



Holy crap that's awesome, thanks so much!


----------



## Rob Elliott

Great idea - why didn't I think of that? Thanks Cory!


----------



## Igor Sena

constaneum said:


> I've corrected the delay. here's the updated.



Funny how such a small detail makes a huge difference. Much much better.
You should send that to one of those music libraries. That is a truly sweet piece!


----------



## Tremendouz

Trying to adapt a chiptune for woodwinds for fun, it's a good test for the legato.

I actually kind of prefer using the normal legato instead of the marcato legato (unless I need a more pronounced attack), for example the flute here is just using the plain fast legato. I didn't expect it to be this agile


----------



## filipjonathan

Tremendouz said:


> Trying to adapt a chiptune for woodwinds for fun, it's a good test for the legato.
> 
> I actually kind of prefer using the normal legato instead of the marcato legato (unless I need a more pronounced attack), for example the flute here is just using the plain fast legato. I didn't expect it to be this agile


Nice!


----------



## Lisa Mueller

Great library! I like the oboes and bassoon the most. The clarintes seem to have some crossfading issues. But well worth the price and an overall good starting libray for WWs!


----------



## stfciu

I thought CSW will bring up a new standard for woodwinds. It sounds terrific I admit and have lovely arrange of instruments and genuine number of articulations. It is a benchmark library for many developers though comparing to VSL it is not that much of improvement. In my opinion it confirms woodwinds are very though to bring into sample world and all the issues especially concerning crossfading are still present. In my opinion we need to accept this is most that can be squized up from this and wait for something really groundbraking. I don't believe however it will be soon.


----------



## Rob Elliott

ridgero said:


> Holymoly, did someone hear that?



I bet setting the SINGLE velocity layer to the MID level one - all other parameters the same would --ALSO be a nice option.  For a more present / powerful option.


----------



## Tremendouz

Rob Elliott said:


> I bet setting the SINGLE velocity layer to the MID level one - all other parameters the same would --ALSO be a nice option.  For a more present / powerful option.


That's what I've been doing, only switching to the highest layer for the loudest sections where for example the flute needs to pierce through the whole orchestra. These woodwinds are so full of emotion that I hardly even notice the lack of dynamic crossfade when using expression to fade into silence instead of the modwheel.


----------



## GingerMaestro

Like everyone here, I’m really enjoying exploring this library and making music. As already mentioned the cross fading “phasing” issue, or whatever it is, is a concern at times, particularly the clarinet.

Does anyone know if this is an easy fix ? Just a programming thing ? Or would it need samples to be edited or recorded again ? It just seems a bit strange that it got overlooked as I don’t hear it on any of CSS’s other libraries, or indeed any libraries from other developers.

Many Thanks 
GM


----------



## jneebz

ridgero said:


> Holymoly, did someone hear that?



OMG those sound amazing.


----------



## jaketanner

stfciu said:


> In my opinion we need to accept this is most that can be squized up from this and wait for something really groundbraking. I don't believe however it will be soon.


Well I believe Performance Samples is working on a winds as part of their new Voyage library...so if Jasper can't get the best out of winds, then no one can...LOL Will see though.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I love the sound of the flute


----------



## Grizzlymv

I'm very happy with the overall sound of this one. Will complete the rest of the series beautifully. I didn't have any woodwinds beside some Embertone solos and those provided in Albions. So it's great to finally have something solid in that department.  I've been holding for CSW for quite some time as I preferred to keep the same workflows/sounds as what I had for strings and brass. 

That being said, fiddling around with it, I noticed something strange with the Solo Piccolo. Is it just me or the D3 and D#3 on the Solo Piccolo have a very strong blowing noise that you don't get from E3 and upward? It's like blowing in a bottle. I can get rid of it by cutting frequencies around 4.8 kHz but then it darken the whole instrument which I guess is a compromise, but would prefer not have to do it. Just wondering if it's an artefact from my download or others are having the same? I'm not a woodwind players, so maybe that's normal, but it just feels weird that it's only on those 2 notes.


----------



## constaneum

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I love the sound of the flute



yes. The flute sounds beautiful.


----------



## RMH

Hi! I wrote small demo song with Cinematic Studio Seires.
Have fun!😁


----------



## zazambor

jaketanner said:


> I have BBCSO...I think the winds are pretty good. I was thinking of CSW, so are you using CSW with BBC? Let me know how they blend.


Hi!

In my usecase, which is mainly dorico, the thing I value the most is consistency between libraries and articulations. That is the main reason why switching CSW was a very easy decision for me.

The second reason is the legato, having natural sounding (no bumping) legato transitions is very important since I can’t really do anything to fix the bumpiness in dorico. But maybe this is better in BCCSO after the update?

Third reason is the tone, I find that CSW has much clearer tone that doesn’t eat all of the space in the mix. It’s somehow very focused, which I like a lot.

Fourth reason would be that I can run CSW in kontakt multis and it feels to be less RAM -heavy.

I haven’t tried using the woodwinds of these libraries together, but I would imagine it being slightly problematic (or at least time consuming) since the tone is so different.


----------



## Bluemount Score

RMH said:


> Hi! I wrote small demo song with Cinematic Studio Seires.
> Have fun!😁



Hey that's cool! "Uplifting", as people like to say!


----------



## Tremendouz

RMH said:


> Hi! I wrote small demo song with Cinematic Studio Seires.
> Have fun!😁



Love it, reminds me of Zelda and other japanese game music!


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## RMH

Bluemount Score said:


> Hey that's cool! "Uplifting", as people like to say!


Thank you!☺️ 


Tremendouz said:


> Love it, reminds me of Zelda and other japanese game music!


Oh, some people say it's like game music. I feel SO good.😆


----------



## gohrev

RMH said:


> Hi! I wrote small demo song with Cinematic Studio Seires.
> Have fun!😁



Lovely piece that put a smile on my face!
I would like to know what the volume balance between your various sections looks like? Brass at -9db, WW at -6, Strings at -6?


----------



## RMH

berlin87 said:


> Lovely piece that put a smile on my face!
> I would like to know what the volume balance between your various sections looks like? Brass at -9db, WW at -6, Strings at -6?


I'm glad I made you smile.😄
Yes. I opened the instrument loading as default and adjusted the master volume of kontakt. But it's not absolute, and I took Bellance so that my ears could be satisfied.

I turned the volume up with a limiter when the whole song was good to listen to.


----------



## Eptesicus

Working on a project with these for the first time.

They really are brilliant.

Such a natural and realistic sound and the legato is simply the best i have used/heard woodwind sampling wise.


----------



## toddkreuz

So are we talking months for the first update? Weeks? Years?  I hope its soon.


----------



## I like music

toddkreuz said:


> So are we talking months for the first update? Weeks? Years?  I hope its soon.


i reckon quite a few months. it'll come after the strings update i _imagine_. that simply says 'early 2021'


----------



## Michael Stibor

RMH said:


> Hi! I wrote small demo song with Cinematic Studio Seires.
> Have fun!😁



I like it! I like the video even more. Is this just QuickTime screen recordings that you edited? It looks very vibrant.


----------



## kupo15

how would you go about mixing/blending different CS sections together? For example, one of the best ways I like mixing is to isolate all the instruments playing the same line, mix them until they sound perfect by themselves then do the same with the rest of the orchestra for that section. The issue I run into is that sometimes, the balance between sections isn't good, like the low winds overpower the strings for example. But I don't want to turn down the mod wheel in the winds or individually tweak them all down for balance because that will change the sound and perfect balance among themselves (mod wheel being less intense sounds)

What would your solution be for this? Buss that section out to a different channel and automate the dreaded cc7 for balance? But then, in the next section it won't be the same group of instruments, perhaps now its low brass and low strings that need to be isolated etc...which I think would require another buss and so on

Thoughts on how to handle this issue? I mean, I "guess" I could contstantly tweak the sections as new instruments are added in but that seems very efficient, not to mention that's not how orchestras rehearse. Blocking out sections, getting that to sound perfect isolated then mixing it in with other perfectly blended isolated sections seems like the ideal method for mixing and mocking up to me


----------



## Trash Panda

It’s usually a good idea to always do mixing in context of the full arrangement.

The typical recommended approach is balance volume levels > apply effects > set up automation. 

You could always use CC11 to do volume balancing during the arrangement phase.


----------



## toddkreuz

Trash Panda said:


> It’s usually a good idea to always do mixing in context of the full arrangement.
> 
> The typical recommended approach is balance volume levels > apply effects > set up automation.
> 
> You could always use CC11 to do volume balancing during the arrangement phase.


You're dead on, doing alot of eq'ing in solo usually leads to issues. 

The actual arrangement and orchestration choices also massively affect how
the mix will go and how much processing you'll need or not need.


----------



## RMH

Michael Stibor said:


> I like it! I like the video even more. Is this just QuickTime screen recordings that you edited? It looks very vibrant.


Thank you for watching!
I filmed it with the hope that these melodies could be seen in this scene with a screen flow.
And I used Photoshop and Final Cut for image editing and cut editing.


----------



## purple

kupo15 said:


> how would you go about mixing/blending different CS sections together? For example, one of the best ways I like mixing is to isolate all the instruments playing the same line, mix them until they sound perfect by themselves then do the same with the rest of the orchestra for that section. The issue I run into is that sometimes, the balance between sections isn't good, like the low winds overpower the strings for example. But I don't want to turn down the mod wheel in the winds or individually tweak them all down for balance because that will change the sound and perfect balance among themselves (mod wheel being less intense sounds)
> 
> What would your solution be for this? Buss that section out to a different channel and automate the dreaded cc7 for balance? But then, in the next section it won't be the same group of instruments, perhaps now its low brass and low strings that need to be isolated etc...which I think would require another buss and so on
> 
> Thoughts on how to handle this issue? I mean, I "guess" I could contstantly tweak the sections as new instruments are added in but that seems very efficient, not to mention that's not how orchestras rehearse. Blocking out sections, getting that to sound perfect isolated then mixing it in with other perfectly blended isolated sections seems like the ideal method for mixing and mocking up to me


Find a recording you like of something, mock that thing up, use the recording as a reference for balance.


----------



## filipjonathan

So do we know if Alex knows about all the issues with the library and if he will address them in an update?


----------



## David Kudell

kupo15 said:


> how would you go about mixing/blending different CS sections together? For example, one of the best ways I like mixing is to isolate all the instruments playing the same line, mix them until they sound perfect by themselves then do the same with the rest of the orchestra for that section. The issue I run into is that sometimes, the balance between sections isn't good, like the low winds overpower the strings for example. But I don't want to turn down the mod wheel in the winds or individually tweak them all down for balance because that will change the sound and perfect balance among themselves (mod wheel being less intense sounds)
> 
> What would your solution be for this? Buss that section out to a different channel and automate the dreaded cc7 for balance? But then, in the next section it won't be the same group of instruments, perhaps now its low brass and low strings that need to be isolated etc...which I think would require another buss and so on
> 
> Thoughts on how to handle this issue? I mean, I "guess" I could contstantly tweak the sections as new instruments are added in but that seems very efficient, not to mention that's not how orchestras rehearse. Blocking out sections, getting that to sound perfect isolated then mixing it in with other perfectly blended isolated sections seems like the ideal method for mixing and mocking up to me


Send each group of instruments (strings, winds, brass, perc, etc) to a stem/bus. It’s much easier that way if the winds are too loud or too quiet as a group to just turn that stem volume up or down.


----------



## kupo15

David Kudell said:


> Send each group of instruments (strings, winds, brass, perc, etc) to a stem/bus. It’s much easier that way if the winds are too loud or too quiet as a group to just turn that stem volume up or down.


Yes, my Kontakt tracks essentially acts like a stem for each section, I guess I can use those. Has anyone noticed how the winds volume is compared to the other sections? Just the brass needs turned down? For some reason my winds are super loud at times. The piccolo at high range sometimes seems like I can't get it soft enough even when mod and cc11 are way down. Maybe something is interfering I'll have to look. 

Also, is there an easier way to transition from say, sfz to sustain other than putting it on one track, sustain on another and cross fading the sustain in?


----------



## Piano Pete

For those who are having tuning issues with the library, the best compromise I have found is by adjusting the mater tune of Kontakt and then proceed to fine tune with the instrument's tune knob. This means that you will need to have different instances of kontakt per instrument, but a compromise is a compromise.

*THIS IS NOT A PERFECT FIX,* but it works. I tried making a multi script to trigger a CC to control the instruments tune knob; however, the midi 1.0 resolution is too coarse—thus making my attempt unsuccessful.

Part A:

For the flute, a decent starting ground I found is with the M*aster Tuning at 430.70* and the I*nstrument Tuning at .18*. You can season to taste, and you will probably need to based on the registers you are writing. *This tuning is predominantly aimed at D5 and above.*

The tuning provided above tames the overall sharp quality of the middle and upper register of the flute down to a more acceptable range. *It is still sharp!* However, it is closer to the realm of acceptable, and down to an amount that most non-musicians will not recognize. Please realize that by taking care of the upper range, you are flattening the lower portion. C3-C4 will sag a bit with the layout above. In reality, C3-C5 sag more than desirable.

Fine tune of *.28* works OK for *C3-C5*.
Fine tune of *.18 *works better form *D5+.*

Part B:

Because this is a static "fix" I would recommend loading up several instance of kontakt with slightly different Tunings. One for "low" and one for "High." If you want to add a third for that middle ground, for any licks that would cross that dividing line, that may be worth while. Probably for most phrases—however—either of the above recommendations may work. Live players are never perfect anyways, so I'd make this call based on if the phrase is going to go back into the upper register or descend and which sounds better.

Ideally, some form of offset with key follow would be ideal, to eleviate the need to have separate instances with separate tuning, but this is kind of a bazooka fix: it is not elegant.

Feel free to rinse and repeat this for any of the other instruments you find problematic. I have not found this solution to be as destructive to the tone of the library as say a pitch correction plugin. This actually resolved a lot of problems I have been having with CSW.

*EDIT*

To put my mind at ease for anyone who just scrolls through threads by title, I made a separate thread linking to this post.

*END EDIT*

Second Edit: Clarinet *Master Tuning 440*, *Instrument Tuning -.05*

Currently, I have all other instruments effectively normal. Playing in unions and close harmony is smooth as expected!


----------



## Christof

I wrote to Alex about the tuning issue, he replied that this library was recorded with a 440 tuning and during the editing process he still tried to leave as much of the natural performance intact as possible. While it is in fact much easier to run libraries through tuning plugins, he chose instead to spend a long time tuning the entire library manually, by ear. He did this after a lot of testing, and concluded that tuning things very precisely using the usual tuning software diminishes the realism and liveliness of the sound.
He will definitely continue to tweak tuning throughout the library and release updates accordingly.


----------



## filipjonathan

Christof said:


> I wrote to Alex about the tuning issue, he replied that this library was recorded with a 440 tuning and during the editing process he still tried to leave as much of the natural performance intact as possible. While it is in fact much easier to run libraries through tuning plugins, he chose instead to spend a long time tuning the entire library manually, by ear. He did this after a lot of testing, and concluded that tuning things very precisely using the usual tuning software diminishes the realism and liveliness of the sound.
> He will definitely continue to tweak tuning throughout the library and release updates accordingly.


Thanks!


----------



## gohrev

toddkreuz said:


> You're dead on, doing alot of eq'ing in solo usually leads to issues.
> 
> The actual arrangement and orchestration choices also massively affect how
> the mix will go and how much processing you'll need or not need.


I often find myself lowering the volume for, let's say, a triangle in the midi part itself (either CC11 or, if need be, CC7). Now I am wondering if this means I'm "mixing prematurely". Should I only use fader automation instead, when it comes to volumes?

Thank you, and @Trash Panda !!


----------



## kupo15

Trash Panda said:


> It’s usually a good idea to always do mixing in context of the full arrangement.
> 
> The typical recommended approach is balance volume levels > apply effects > set up automation.
> 
> You could always use CC11 to do volume balancing during the arrangement phase.


For clarity because I probably used my words too loosely, I meant to say as I'm "mocking up" instead of mixing. Is there a difference between the two and you were thinking of a different process? I think there was confusion because toddkreuz mentioned EQing which is not the realm I was talking about. I was referring to the actual mock up process


----------



## Piano Pete

Christof said:


> I wrote to Alex about the tuning issue, he replied that this library was recorded with a 440 tuning and during the editing process he still tried to leave as much of the natural performance intact as possible. While it is in fact much easier to run libraries through tuning plugins, he chose instead to spend a long time tuning the entire library manually, by ear. He did this after a lot of testing, and concluded that tuning things very precisely using the usual tuning software diminishes the realism and liveliness of the sound.
> He will definitely continue to tweak tuning throughout the library and release updates accordingly.


Ya, that's why I went with the fix I did. It still keeps the character of the samples pretty much intact—while also allowing for some slight tuning deviation.


----------



## jamayo514

kupo15 said:


> Yes, my Kontakt tracks essentially acts like a stem for each section, I guess I can use those. Has anyone noticed how the winds volume is compared to the other sections? Just the brass needs turned down? For some reason my winds are super loud at times. The piccolo at high range sometimes seems like I can't get it soft enough even when mod and cc11 are way down. Maybe something is interfering I'll have to look.
> 
> Also, is there an easier way to transition from say, sfz to sustain other than putting it on one track, sustain on another and cross fading the sustain in?


As someone who has played piccolo, when it gets in the higher range in an orchestra, you really can't hide that instrument in the texture no matter the dynamic. Playing that instrument is like a screaming baby on a roller coaster 🤣


----------



## Rob Elliott

jamayo514 said:


> As someone who has played piccolo, when it gets in the higher range in an orchestra, you really can't hide that instrument in the texture no matter the dynamic. Playing that instrument is like a screaming baby on a roller coaster 🤣


...in addition to the piccolo...Give the baby a xylophone and EVERYONE will here it!!!!!


----------



## Geocranium

kupo15 said:


> The piccolo at high range sometimes seems like I can't get it soft enough even when mod and cc11 are way down.


Isn't that pretty typical for a piccolo? The dynamic range in the upper register is very small. It's going to be shrill no matter what.


----------



## Michael Stibor

I think I was inspired by @RMH 's video to make a quick demo for Instagram using CSS, CSB, and CSW, etc. 

Here's my little 60 second two cents:


----------



## kupo15

Geocranium said:


> Isn't that pretty typical for a piccolo? The dynamic range in the upper register is very small. It's going to be shrill no matter what.





jamayo514 said:


> As someone who has played piccolo, when it gets in the higher range in an orchestra, you really can't hide that instrument in the texture no matter the dynamic. Playing that instrument is like a screaming baby on a roller coaster 🤣


Haha oh no doubt! A high piccolo can cut concrete in half it cuts that sharply! :D 

The piercing power is not the issue, I found the issue though. Apparantly my CC11 was disabled for piccolo so expression didn't work which was strange. But for some reason my mod wheel didn't seem to work either but now it is. I know the dynamic range up there is limited but for some reason I had zero control in attempting to balance the volume somewhat


----------



## Robert_G

Michael Stibor said:


> I think I was inspired by @RMH 's video to make a quick demo for Instagram using CSS, CSB, and CSW, etc.
> 
> Here's my little 60 second two cents:



How do you set up your mics for each Cinematic Studio library?


----------



## Michael Stibor

Robert_G said:


> How do you set up your mics for each Cinematic Studio library?


It varies. I kind of just mess around with it depending on the instrument, and depending on their individual needs per piece.

Here, the exposed violin line at the beginning was the mix mix, but more often than not for strings and brass, I use the Main mic with the room mic added in approximately 10db less. But for solo brass, its the opposite. For woodwinds, I've been mainly using the overheads. Overall, I prefer a more distant 'classical' sound.


----------



## jaketanner

Christof said:


> I wrote to Alex about the tuning issue, he replied that this library was recorded with a 440 tuning and during the editing process he still tried to leave as much of the natural performance intact as possible. While it is in fact much easier to run libraries through tuning plugins, he chose instead to spend a long time tuning the entire library manually, by ear. He did this after a lot of testing, and concluded that tuning things very precisely using the usual tuning software diminishes the realism and liveliness of the sound.
> He will definitely continue to tweak tuning throughout the library and release updates accordingly.


How are tuning issues not address at the time of recording? A bad take is a bad take...redo. Don't get why they have to tune anything post recording.


----------



## purple

jaketanner said:


> How are tuning issues not address at the time of recording? A bad take is a bad take...redo. Don't get why they have to tune anything post recording.


I think just about any solo instrument library needs some final tuning...


----------



## RMH

Michael Stibor said:


> I think I was inspired by @RMH 's video to make a quick demo for Instagram using CSS, CSB, and CSW, etc.
> 
> Here's my little 60 second two cents:



Nice work!!👍😎


----------



## OttoPilot33

jamayo514 said:


> As someone who has played piccolo, when it gets in the higher range in an orchestra, you really can't hide that instrument in the texture no matter the dynamic. Playing that instrument is like a screaming baby on a roller coaster 🤣


And I was torturing myself considering the option of redoing and reuploading my whole Brahms' overture because of those three pesky piccolo screaming notes! :


----------



## jason3.14

lucor said:


> I'm not talking about making it work with other developers.
> 
> That's my point, in its current form it doesn't work with their own libraries, because all of them (CSS, CSB, CSW) have different legato delay values:
> - *CSS*: 330ms, 250ms, 100ms
> - *CSB*: 180ms, 100ms for Trumpets; 230ms, 100ms for all other Brass instruments
> - *CSW*: 220ms, 130ms, 90ms
> It's a bit of a mess that I wish could be unified, that's all.


Yea... I agree feel like it would be amazing if I could expect the various legato transitions to stay in time if I input MIDI notes on the beat. The thought of needing to do a lot of tweaking to stay strictly in time makes me hesitant to commit to the Cinematic Studio Series, even though the demos sound great! @Alex W it would be great if you could weigh in on this possible feature!


----------



## gohrev

It is frustrating indeed, but the sound of the libraries make up for it to me.


----------



## Bluemount Score

lucor said:


> I'm not talking about making it work with other developers.
> 
> That's my point, in its current form it doesn't work with their own libraries, because all of them (CSS, CSB, CSW) have different legato delay values:
> - *CSS*: 330ms, 250ms, 100ms
> - *CSB*: 180ms, 100ms for Trumpets; 230ms, 100ms for all other Brass instruments
> - *CSW*: 220ms, 130ms, 90ms
> It's a bit of a mess that I wish could be unified, that's all.


I can confirm that and while I really like the workflow / consistency across the libraries, this one sticks out for me the most, too. I have all these numbers in my head by now, however something like

Slow 300ms (CSS / CSSS/ CSW)
Medium 200ms (all libraries)
and Fast 100ms (all libraries)

would be a major improvement as I thought working with them.

If interested, you can check out another track with CSS / CSSS (first chairs) / CSB and CSW here, if you aren't afraid of classical mock-up attempts like this one. Mostly legato.


----------



## rlundv

How much RAM is needed to load all instruments with Close, OH, Main and Room-mics?


----------



## OttoPilot33

Bluemount Score said:


> I can confirm that and while I really like the workflow / consistency across the libraries, this one sticks out for me the most, too. I have all these numbers in my head by now, however something like
> 
> Slow 300ms (CSS / CSSS/ CSW)
> Medium 200ms (all libraries)
> and Fast 100ms (all libraries)
> 
> would be a major improvement as I thought working with them.
> 
> If interested, you can check out another track with CSS / CSSS (first chairs) / CSB and CSW here, if you aren't afraid of classical mock-up attempts like this one. Mostly legato.



For my version of this Borodin's work, I adjusted every CSS and CSB note start by ear, which is certainly a pain. Specially the CSS parts have a lot of key switch and velocity changes that require all different offsets. The result is not very precise but in a certain way it ads a little human character (i.e. less perfection). It is true, though, that in many passages I would have desired more precision. All my works contain a *lot* *of tempo modulation*: ritardandi, accelerandi, rubati, etc., which in my opinion is indispensable to give *musicality* to mockups, together with the proper dynamic modulation. It seems to me that adjusting the note offset by the numbers doesn't work precisely with constantly varying tempo (every quarter note, for instance), at least with Logic Pro. What do you think?


----------



## Tremendouz

beyd770 said:


> How much RAM is needed to load all instruments with Close, OH, Main and Room-mics?


That depends on the preload buffer size setting in Kontakt (I heard the lowest setting works fine if you have SSD and it saves RAM) and whether you use a single kontakt instance for all or one per instruments.

I'm going to check how my 32GB fares with CSW and I'll report back

EDIT: Results in my message below


----------



## Bluemount Score

OttoPilot33 said:


> For my version of this Borodin's work, I adjusted every CSS and CSB note start by ear, which is certainly a pain. Specially the CSS parts have a lot of key switch and velocity changes that require all different offsets. The result is not very precise but in a certain way it ads a little human character (i.e. less perfection). It is true, though, that in many passages I would have desired more precision. All my works contain a *lot* *of tempo modulation*: ritardandi, accelerandi, rubati, etc., which in my opinion is indispensable to give *musicality* to mockups, together with the proper dynamic modulation. It seems to me that adjusting the note offset by the numbers doesn't work precisely with constantly varying tempo (every quarter note, for instance), at least with Logic Pro. What do you think?



Interesting to hear another MIDI version of this piece! I trusted the numbers and think they work fine, even with changing tempo. My version varies between 65 - 81 BPM (I think). So I always pushed the transition notes back at more or less the exact recommended amount


----------



## Tremendouz

beyd770 said:


> How much RAM is needed to load all instruments with Close, OH, Main and Room-mics?


Alright, so I tried minimum preload buffer size, all CSW instruments within one Kontakt instance and Kontakt is reporting 10.48GB, Reaper's Performance meter 17.3GB and Windows 10 task manager 15.3GB for Reaper's total usage. Not sure which to believe...


----------



## rlundv

Tremendouz said:


> Alright, so I tried minimum preload buffer size, all CSW instruments within one Kontakt instance and Kontakt is reporting 10.48GB, Reaper's Performance meter 17.3GB and Windows 10 task manager 15.3GB for Reaper's total usage. Not sure which to believe...


Great thanks! What about default setting for preload buffer size? Would it increase drastically if you loaded each instrument in a separate Kontakt?


----------



## Tremendouz

beyd770 said:


> Great thanks! What about default setting for preload buffer size? Would it increase drastically if you loaded each instrument in a separate Kontakt?


Default preload buffer size (60kb) is apparently designed for old and very slow hard drives so with a modern 7200 rpm HDD you'd probably be fine with 24 kb or even less but I tested 60 kb out of curiosity and I maxed out my 32GB RAM while still having 2 instruments missing when using all mic positions and that was within one Kontakt instance.

So, I tested a more sensible 24kb which seemed to work fine even when having some kontakt libraries on my 5400 rpm HDD:
- Separate Kontakt instances: Task Manager reports *22.3GB* for Reaper itself, *24.6GB* system total. Reaper's performance meter reports the same *24.6GB*.
- Single Kontakt instance: *21.3GB*, *23.5GB*, *23.6GB* for the equivalents of above. So, 1GB less than above, probably not worth it if you prefer to keep your routing simple by using separate kontakt instances.

Remember that with 6kb buffer the numbers were around 15.3GB (DAW only) and 17.3GB (total)

So, it seems like you're gonna need a system with 24GB or preferably 32GB RAM to load all the CSW instruments with all mics at the same time (you should NOT stick to the default 60 kb buffer since it uses a crapton of RAM). That said, I've been mostly using just the main mic or then Close + OH so I will probably never use all 4 mics at once.


----------



## filipjonathan

Tremendouz said:


> Default preload buffer size (60kb) is apparently designed for old and very slow hard drives so with a modern 7200 rpm HDD you'd probably be fine with 24 kb or even less but I tested 60 kb out of curiosity and I maxed out my 32GB RAM while still having 2 instruments missing when using all mic positions and that was within one Kontakt instance.
> 
> So, I tested a more sensible 24kb which seemed to work fine even when having some kontakt libraries on my 5400 rpm HDD:
> - Separate Kontakt instances: Task Manager reports *22.3GB* for Reaper itself, *24.6GB* system total. Reaper's performance meter reports the same *24.6GB*.
> - Single Kontakt instance: *21.3GB*, *23.5GB*, *23.6GB* for the equivalents of above. So, 1GB less than above, probably not worth it if you prefer to keep your routing simple by using separate kontakt instances.
> 
> Remember that with 6kb buffer the numbers were around 15.3GB (DAW only) and 17.3GB (total)
> 
> So, it seems like you're gonna need a system with 24GB or preferably 32GB RAM to load all the CSW instruments with all mics at the same time (you should NOT stick to the default 60 kb buffer since it uses a crapton of RAM). That said, I've been mostly using just the main mic or then Close + OH so I will probably never use all 4 mics at once.







This little box needs to be white for it to become active, right?


----------



## Tremendouz

filipjonathan said:


> This little box needs to be white for it to become active, right?


Yes. What's memory server though? I don't have that in mine.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Tremendouz said:


> Yes. What's memory server though? I don't have that in mine.


Gets unlocked after purchasing $10.000+ worth of Kontakt libraries


EDIT: Don't have it either


----------



## Robert_G

Tremendouz said:


> Yes. What's memory server though? I don't have that in mine.


What is a good instrument preload buffer size for large templates using instruments like Cinematic Studios with full mics and such?


----------



## Tremendouz

Robert_G said:


> What is a good instrument preload buffer size for large templates using instruments like Cinematic Studios with full mics and such?


I don't have enough RAM for a full mic template but 24kb seems to have worked fine to me in full orchestra projects that take 20-25GB RAM. My samples were scattered across one NVMe SSD, a SATA SSD and a 5400 rpm HDD and my main string and brass libraries were from Cinematic Studio series with some supplements from 8dio, Cinesamples, NI Symphony Series.


----------



## Robert_G

Tremendouz said:


> I don't have enough RAM for a full mic template but 24kb seems to have worked fine to me in full orchestra projects that take 20-25GB RAM. My samples were scattered across one NVMe SSD, a SATA SSD and a 5400 rpm HDD and my main string and brass libraries were from Cinematic Studio series with some supplements from 8dio, Cinesamples, NI Symphony Series.


Yeah, my main larger orchestra libs are all NVME and the rest are on regular SSD. 24kb seems to work well for me but I also have 128GB RAM.

It seems that if I use the default of 64kb, that the samples initially load slower into my DAW. Am I seeing things?


----------



## filipjonathan

Bluemount Score said:


> Gets unlocked after purchasing $10.000+ worth of Kontakt libraries


Very true @Tremendouz


----------



## Tremendouz

Robert_G said:


> It seems that if I use the default of 64kb, that the samples initially load slower into my DAW. Am I seeing things?


If you mean the white progress bar within Kontakt filling slower, that's kinda understandable because you'll be loading let's say 0.8GB into RAM instead of 0.4GB (lower buffer size). The smaller the buffer, the less gets loaded into RAM and the more is streamed directly from disk on demand if I'm understanding right.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Tremendouz said:


> The smaller the buffer, the less gets loaded into RAM and the more is streamed directly from disk on demand if I'm understanding right.


Yes, that's how I understood it, too


----------



## Robert_G

Tremendouz said:


> If you mean the white progress bar within Kontakt filling slower, that's kinda understandable because you'll be loading let's say 0.8GB into RAM instead of 0.4GB (lower buffer size). The smaller the buffer, the less gets loaded into RAM and the more is streamed directly from disk on demand if I'm understanding right.


That makes sense. I wonder where the fine line is where the sound starts to cut out on me. None of my samples are on regular hard drive....only NVME and SSD. Some guys say you can go down to 12kb, but that seems pretty low.


----------



## Tremendouz

Robert_G said:


> That makes sense. I wonder where the fine line is where the sound starts to cut out on me. None of my samples are on regular hard drive....only NVME and SSD. Some guys say you can go down to 12kb, but that seems pretty low.


I'm currently using 6kb with 2 NVMe SSDs and one SATA SSD, seems to work fine with moderately sized (30-40 instrument tracks) projects.


----------



## kupo15

Tremendouz said:


> Default preload buffer size (60kb) is apparently designed for old and very slow hard drives so with a modern 7200 rpm HDD you'd probably be fine with 24 kb or even less but I tested 60 kb out of curiosity and I maxed out my 32GB RAM while still having 2 instruments missing when using all mic positions and that was within one Kontakt instance.
> 
> So, I tested a more sensible 24kb which seemed to work fine even when having some kontakt libraries on my 5400 rpm HDD:
> - Separate Kontakt instances: Task Manager reports *22.3GB* for Reaper itself, *24.6GB* system total. Reaper's performance meter reports the same *24.6GB*.
> - Single Kontakt instance: *21.3GB*, *23.5GB*, *23.6GB* for the equivalents of above. So, 1GB less than above, probably not worth it if you prefer to keep your routing simple by using separate kontakt instances.
> 
> Remember that with 6kb buffer the numbers were around 15.3GB (DAW only) and 17.3GB (total)
> 
> So, it seems like you're gonna need a system with 24GB or preferably 32GB RAM to load all the CSW instruments with all mics at the same time (you should NOT stick to the default 60 kb buffer since it uses a crapton of RAM). That said, I've been mostly using just the main mic or then Close + OH so I will probably never use all 4 mics at once.


What happens if you have multiple copies of the same intrument within Kontakt? Does it share all the same ram with the mics and the patches? For example if you want two horns playing a legato passage together, you need two instances in Kontakt and you'll need to have the same mics turned on for each

Also I have Normal ssd and 6kb buffer is not running into issues yet for my orchestra where I use 4 Kontakt tracks and double copies of each intruments


----------



## Tremendouz

kupo15 said:


> What happens if you have multiple copies of the same intrument within Kontakt? Does it share all the same ram with the mics and the patches?


I'm pretty sure the RAM is shared. For example, when you have all the cinematic studio strings individual sections loaded and you then add the full ensemble patch, the RAM usage won't go up because the samples used in the ensemble patch are the same ones that are already loaded. Now, I'm not sure if the actual RAM usage stays the same but at least the number reported by Kontakt itself doesn't go up.


----------



## kupo15

Tremendouz said:


> I'm pretty sure the RAM is shared. For example, when you have all the cinematic studio strings individual sections loaded and you then add the full ensemble patch, the RAM usage won't go up because the samples used in the ensemble patch are the same ones that are already loaded. Now, I'm not sure if the actual RAM usage stays the same but at least the number reported by Kontakt itself doesn't go up.


That's what I was thinking. I also find it that subsequent instruments get loaded in much faster once the first one was loaded in. And I didn't think that we are essentially sharing this ram with the mix mic so it shouldn't be different for the other mics too. That would be silly if all copies had their own mic patches that don't share


----------



## MA-Simon

Bluemount Score said:


> I can confirm that and while I really like the workflow / consistency across the libraries, this one sticks out for me the most, too. I have all these numbers in my head by now, however something like
> 
> Slow 300ms (CSS / CSSS/ CSW)
> Medium 200ms (all libraries)
> and Fast 100ms (all libraries)
> 
> would be a major improvement as I thought working with them.
> 
> If interested, you can check out another track with CSS / CSSS (first chairs) / CSB and CSW here, if you aren't afraid of classical mock-up attempts like this one. Mostly legato.



That is not playable like that by real players. You can keep the melody but you have to add 1-2 short breathing spots during parts. Edit: Even if the Notation is from a real pice, Players still would add little breaks by themselfes. There does not need to be a legato transition on each note. I noticed some brass passages would be better with note separation.

Edit2: Just to say, still an amazing mockup! I would be way to lazy...


----------



## Bluemount Score

MA-Simon said:


> That is not playable like that by real players. You can keep the melody but you have to add 1-2 short breathing spots during parts. Edit: Even if the Notation is from a real pice, Players still would add little breaks by themselfes. There does not need to be a legato transition on each note. I noticed some brass passages would be better with note separation.
> 
> Edit2: Just to say, still an amazing mockup! I would be way to lazy...


Thanks for the feedback, this is actually something I struggled with a little. For "the sake of sound", I perhaps made too little / short breathing breaks, however they are there.
I in fact compared it to two live recordings all the time when making this and was surprised by how little some players need to breath in between long melodic lines*.
I will try to pay attention to this in future pieces - most important to me is the learning expererience

*e.g. I was quite impressed by the cor anglais player at 1:07


----------



## constaneum

Here's another piece of music featuring CSW. Didn't focus on heavy woodwinds writings this time.


----------



## Pianolando

I tried this in a project fir the first time yesterday and holy crap it’s hard to play live with this library! 

The delay is so huge that I cannot for the life of me play in time, and I thought I was good at compensating for some latency. I then tried to quantize everything (which I really hate and usually never do) and then move the notes left but then the non legato notes were totally out of time. How do you guys do it with CSS and CSW?

The library does sound beautiful though, as other have reported the flute quite is a bit too sharp in the high register and there is some phase issues (as in all ww sample libraries I think) but the oboe and cor anglais are really beautiful.


----------



## Eptesicus

Pianolando said:


> I tried this in a project fir the first time yesterday and holy crap it’s hard to play live with this library!
> 
> The delay is so huge that I cannot for the life of me play in time, and I thought I was good at compensating for some latency. I then tried to quantize everything (which I really hate and usually never do) and then move the notes left but then the non legato notes were totally out of time. How do you guys do it with CSS and CSW?



Play part in.

Shift it to the left of the grid.

Put click track on and listen through passage and tweak each note as i go till it sounds on time.

Yes it is a bit time consuming, but the end result is worth it


----------



## Grizzlymv

Pianolando said:


> I tried this in a project fir the first time yesterday and holy crap it’s hard to play live with this library!
> 
> The delay is so huge that I cannot for the life of me play in time, and I thought I was good at compensating for some latency. I then tried to quantize everything (which I really hate and usually never do) and then move the notes left but then the non legato notes were totally out of time. How do you guys do it with CSS and CSW?
> 
> The library does sound beautiful though, as other have reported the flute quite is a bit too sharp in the high register and there is some phase issues (as in all ww sample libraries I think) but the oboe and cor anglais are really beautiful.


an "easy" way that I'm using is to record my line live (obviously sounds crap due to delays). then I quantize it. then I select all the notes, but the first one. Then I use a macro based on the technique described in this video I found in a older thread () and it puts everything in place with great sounding. I can then adjust the velocity on some notes to get a different legato transition and slightly move the note to match the new legato, but overall, it's still quite fast. Unless someone as a smoother workflow, but I haven't found one so far.


----------



## constaneum

Pianolando said:


> I tried this in a project fir the first time yesterday and holy crap it’s hard to play live with this library!
> 
> The delay is so huge that I cannot for the life of me play in time, and I thought I was good at compensating for some latency. I then tried to quantize everything (which I really hate and usually never do) and then move the notes left but then the non legato notes were totally out of time. How do you guys do it with CSS and CSW?
> 
> The library does sound beautiful though, as other have reported the flute quite is a bit too sharp in the high register and there is some phase issues (as in all ww sample libraries I think) but the oboe and cor anglais are really beautiful.


Just get used to it, don't complain and write. At the end of the day, it's the consistency across instruments and end result that matter. Haha.


----------



## xanderscores

Pianolando said:


> I tried this in a project fir the first time yesterday and holy crap it’s hard to play live with this library!
> 
> The delay is so huge ...


I totally relate to that. I've ditched CSSS for this very reason (and because it drowns out notes every now and then for some reason). Nevertheless I got myself CSS and CSW for their beautiful sound and I work around the latency by not using the legato, but the sustains for recording. I activate the legato afterwards when I'm done recording.
I have to say, CS is not my primary library, which is Berlin. CS samples make a great addition though, especially legato-wise.


----------



## gohrev

I usually play in using shorts, e.g. pizzicato


----------



## xanderscores

berlin87 said:


> I usually play in using shorts, e.g. pizzicato


That saves lot of RAM too. You just got to have a little imagination. It takes only a few year's practice to work that way. 

I'm kidding.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

pawelmorytko said:


> Just the mix mics, with some reverbs and Precedence


For those of you using Precedence with CSW (and other pre-panned wet libraries), why do you use this tool instead of simple stereo pan (and mic positions for depth)? 

It seems like a bit of overkill when you are just trying to pan something? But I bet I am missing something...


----------



## pawelmorytko

marclawsonmusic said:


> For those of you using Precedence with CSW (and other pre-panned wet libraries), why do you use this tool instead of simple stereo pan (and mic positions for depth)?
> 
> It seems like a bit of overkill when you are just trying to pan something? But I bet I am missing something...


I actually don't use it to pan at all because like you said they're already pre-panned, but I use it a lot for depth and to push things back. And using precedence instead of a selection of mic positions saves me a lot of ram, and I guess I could just use the room mic but I much prefer the sound of the mix mic than just having to use any one of the other mics.


----------



## Jdiggity1

marclawsonmusic said:


> For those of you using Precedence with CSW (and other pre-panned wet libraries), why do you use this tool instead of simple stereo pan (and mic positions for depth)?
> 
> It seems like a bit of overkill when you are just trying to pan something? But I bet I am missing something...


Since a standard panner will work by simply lowering one channel (either the left or right), it risks messing with the natural width and stereo field of the recording. This is particularly the case when panning a wide perspective (such as room/ambient mics). It can be like squashing and moving a whole room over to one side. Plugins like precedence that use fancy algorithms and delays/reflections are better at emulating the positioning, depth and reflections, in a more natural way, retaining or recreating the depth/width that might have been lost by using pan.
Standard panning is still often perfectly fine when making small adjustments, but there's less control in the case of problems arising.


----------



## Kony

You can narrow the stereo field with Panagement btw.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Jdiggity1 said:


> Since a standard panner will work by simply lowering one channel (either the left or right), it risks messing with the natural width and stereo field of the recording. This is particularly the case when panning a wide perspective (such as room/ambient mics). It can be like squashing and moving a whole room over to one side. Plugins like precedence that use fancy algorithms and delays/reflections are better at emulating the positioning, depth and reflections, in a more natural way, retaining or recreating the depth/width that might have been lost by using pan.
> Standard panning is still often perfectly fine when making small adjustments, but there's less control in the case of problems arising.


Thanks, @Jdiggity1. But are you referring to traditional panning (pan pots)? Versus stereo pan - like in ProTools and Logic Direction Mixer? I was asking about stereo panning.

My understanding is that stereo panning is better for this sort of thing - in other words it's not a simple L/R volume adjustment... but I could be wrong?

I understand using Precedence for pushing something back (thanks @pawelmorytko). But I have heard others say they use it for panning too.


----------



## Jdiggity1

marclawsonmusic said:


> Thanks, @Jdiggity1. But are you referring to traditional panning (pan pots)? Versus stereo pan - like in ProTools and Logic Direction Mixer? I was asking about stereo panning.
> 
> My understanding is that stereo panning is better for this sort of thing - in other words it's not a simple L/R volume adjustment... but I could be wrong?
> 
> I understand using Precedence for pushing something back (thanks @pawelmorytko). But I have heard others say they use it for panning too.


Well I think the most common method of panning in software is balance panning. This is what's used in Kontakt and Cubase by default. Most daws will have options or a preference to choose which method to use, though. 
My response was mostly addressing both methods though.
Personally, I use balance panning sometimes, stereo (or stereo combined) panning other times, and precedence on others. Precedence doesn't necessarily mean that you'll never touch a pan knob again.


----------



## gohrev

Just a quick check to make sure my ears aren't fooling me: When overlapping the notes ever so slightly (less than /128 seems to do the trick), I notice that the legato sounds even more legato?


----------



## Tremendouz

berlin87 said:


> Just a quick check to make sure my ears aren't fooling me: When overlapping the notes ever so slightly (less than /128 seems to do the trick), I notice that the legato sounds even more legato?


Pretty sure you need to overlap the notes to trigger the legato in the first place, unless other DAWs handle things differently than Reaper.


----------



## Eptesicus

I have to say I really enjoyed using this library in my latest competition ( the spring scoring competition). Had a whole woodwind section used in it , and it just sounded so natural and realistic straight "out of the box".

I find with many libraries there is always something like certain transitions or notes that stick out and ruin a passage meaning endless time trying to mask/tweak it. With this i had no such trouble which made it really easy to work with. It is remarkably consistent and refined.

I really appreciate this as you can concentrate on the music and not on excessive fiddling around (which i find dampens the inspiration).


----------



## pawelmorytko

Eptesicus said:


> I have to say I really enjoyed using this library in my latest competition ( the spring scoring competition). Had a whole woodwind section used in it , and it just sounded so natural and realistic straight "out of the box".
> 
> I find with many libraries there is always something like certain transitions or notes that stick out and ruin a passage meaning endless time trying to mask/tweak it. With this i had no such trouble which made it really easy to work with. It is remarkably consistent and refined.
> 
> I really appreciate this as you can concentrate on the music and not on excessive fiddling around (which i find dampens the inspiration).


Same here, used it in my entry and I just loved how it blended with the rest of the orchestra. Even if it's used in the background, blending in with some harmonies that don't necessarily stick out or do anything fancy, it still just feels way more complete and full with the woodwinds in there.


----------



## ricoderks

marclawsonmusic said:


> For those of you using Precedence with CSW (and other pre-panned wet libraries), why do you use this tool instead of simple stereo pan (and mic positions for depth)?
> 
> It seems like a bit of overkill when you are just trying to pan something? But I bet I am missing something...


It just adds another proximity effect as if the players were actually sitting further away from the mics. Even with 1 mic its a magical plugin to me at least.


----------



## jamwerks

Just put in template, and it's really an awesome library. Hands down the best WW's currently out.

I do wish though that the Main's had a little less room, maybe a tighter cardioid pattern. As some have said, the Mix mic might be a little too "close".


----------



## Eptesicus

ricoderks said:


> It just adds another proximity effect as if the players were actually sitting further away from the mics. Even with 1 mic its a magical plugin to me at least.



Yeh, it sort of works like a glue to get everything sounding a bit more cohesive (especially if using different libraries from different rooms together).


----------



## I like music

Eptesicus said:


> I have to say I really enjoyed using this library in my latest competition ( the spring scoring competition). Had a whole woodwind section used in it , and it just sounded so natural and realistic straight "out of the box".
> 
> I find with many libraries there is always something like certain transitions or notes that stick out and ruin a passage meaning endless time trying to mask/tweak it. With this i had no such trouble which made it really easy to work with. It is remarkably consistent and refined.
> 
> I really appreciate this as you can concentrate on the music and not on excessive fiddling around (which i find dampens the inspiration).


Where can I hear your entry (and what competition?!)


----------



## Eptesicus

I like music said:


> Where can I hear your entry (and what competition?!)


Here you go -







Thread about it is here -






Scorerelief 2021 competition


THE FILM SCORING COMPETITION WITH A HEART Score Relief is a free-to-enter film scoring competition. We have amazing prizes for composers, thanks to the generosity of Allen & Heath, ThinkSpace Education, Aston Microphones and Triune Digital, along with our partners at Northern Film Orchestra. We...




vi-control.net


----------



## I like music

Eptesicus said:


> Here you go -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thread about it is here -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scorerelief 2021 competition
> 
> 
> THE FILM SCORING COMPETITION WITH A HEART Score Relief is a free-to-enter film scoring competition. We have amazing prizes for composers, thanks to the generosity of Allen & Heath, ThinkSpace Education, Aston Microphones and Triune Digital, along with our partners at Northern Film Orchestra. We...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net



Absolutely fantastic! Great music right there. And your orchestra sounded very gelled together on top, to add to the quality of the composition itself. So CSW here? What else did you use to get that cohesive sound?


----------



## xanderscores

I like music said:


> Absolutely fantastic! Great music right there. And your orchestra sounded very gelled together on top, to add to the quality of the composition itself. So CSW here? What else did you use to get that cohesive sound?


Wow! Yes, fantastic indeed. Very modern sounding, strong theme, rich orchestration with lots of detail. I noticed that the instruments are panned quite extremely which adds to the modern "studio sound".

Great work! You can be very proud of this, @Eptesicus !! Thanks for sharing!


----------



## kupo15

berlin87 said:


> Just a quick check to make sure my ears aren't fooling me: When overlapping the notes ever so slightly (less than /128 seems to do the trick), I notice that the legato sounds even more legato?



overlapping any amount triggers the legato, but the velocity of that overlap note triggers the different speed legatos. Is that what you mean or did you already know that and there is something else you are referring to?


----------



## Eptesicus

I like music said:


> Absolutely fantastic! Great music right there. And your orchestra sounded very gelled together on top, to add to the quality of the composition itself. So CSW here? What else did you use to get that cohesive sound?





xanderscores said:


> Wow! Yes, fantastic indeed. Very modern sounding, strong theme, rich orchestration with lots of detail. I noticed that the instruments are panned quite extremely which adds to the modern "studio sound".
> 
> Great work! You can be very proud of this, @Eptesicus !! Thanks for sharing!



Thank you both!

@I like music - Yes woodwind section is just CSW (piccolo,flutes,oboes,clarinets,bassoons,contra).

Tried to keep it as traditionally orchestral as possible (so no synths or sound design in it at all). The main bulk of the rest is:
Strings are CSS 
Brass is JXL + SM trumpets.
Genesis children's choir
True strike
+ Best Service Era tin whistle, and added a smattering of Spitfire Orch Swarm high strings and woods for some of the textural bits at the start (and mainly because i bought it in the black Friday sale so felt i should put it to use  )

Soundstage wise it is precedence and breeze (but various tweaking of mics due to obviously some stuff having more room than others)


CSW really was a breeze to work with and just sounds so instantly natural and expressive I thought.


----------



## filipjonathan

Eptesicus said:


> Here you go -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thread about it is here -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scorerelief 2021 competition
> 
> 
> THE FILM SCORING COMPETITION WITH A HEART Score Relief is a free-to-enter film scoring competition. We have amazing prizes for composers, thanks to the generosity of Allen & Heath, ThinkSpace Education, Aston Microphones and Triune Digital, along with our partners at Northern Film Orchestra. We...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net



Damn


----------



## I like music

filipjonathan said:


> Damn


Yep. What I said when I heard it.


----------



## I like music

Eptesicus said:


> Thank you both!
> 
> @I like music - Yes woodwind section is just CSW (piccolo,flutes,oboes,clarinets,bassoons,contra).
> 
> Tried to keep it as traditionally orchestral as possible (so no synths or sound design in it at all). The main bulk of the rest is:
> Strings are CSS
> Brass is JXL + SM trumpets.
> Genesis children's choir
> True strike
> + Best Service Era tin whistle, and added a smattering of Spitfire Orch Swarm high strings and woods for some of the textural bits at the start (and mainly because i bought it in the black Friday sale so felt i should put it to use  )
> 
> Soundstage wise it is precedence and breeze (but various tweaking of mics due to obviously some stuff having more room than others)
> 
> 
> CSW really was a breeze to work with and just sounds so instantly natural and expressive I thought.


Very cool. You got a good thing going here. I'm angling for truestrike and also SM trumpet to supplement my IB. congrats in any case. Keep writing more good stuff


----------



## gohrev

@Tremendouz @kupo15 Thank you both … all clear now


----------



## Agarn

Anyone else run into an issue where the flute flutter tongue articulations aren't saving changes (either unloading them from RAM or changing the keyswitch) in projects or Kontakt snapshots? Happened to me in both Cubase and VEPro.


----------



## gohrev

The oboe is so beautiful.. I finally got a chance to really put this library to work for the ScoreRelief2021 contest. Here's a little part where the oboe really gets to shine


----------



## Ashermusic

I am, as is well known, a massive Hollywood Orchestra guy and looking forward to HO Opus, but I find it hard to believe that I will like the woodwinds a la carte as much as I like these. They are just gorgeous and I can probably write 90% of what I want just using the marcato legato, triggering the spiccato overlay on and off as desired.

It is, of course, like the rest of the series more wet than dry, but I can adapt.


----------



## Tremendouz

Ashermusic said:


> It is, of course, like the rest of the series more wet than dry, but I can adapt.


Give the combination of close mic and a bit of OH a try, that gets you a pretty close sound that still isn't totally mono like the close mic alone is.


----------



## Ashermusic

Tremendouz said:


> Give the combination of close mic and a bit of OH a try, that gets you a pretty close sound that still isn't totally mono like the close mic alone is.


I did, kills the magic for me.


----------



## Tremendouz

Ashermusic said:


> I did, kills the magic for me.


Fair enough. I do think the close mic sound isn't the best in CSSeries in general but for the woodwinds it works in certain contexts


----------



## Ashermusic

Tremendouz said:


> Fair enough. I do think the close mic sound isn't the best in CSSeries in general but for the woodwinds it works in certain contexts


So far, I think just lowering the Room mic level a bit is working well, but its early days yet.


----------



## GingerMaestro

Hi,

has anyone else had any issues with any of these instruments crashing your DAW ? I’m playing a fast passage on the Flutes a2 staccatissimo patch and it keeps jamming up Logic and then crashing ? Any thoughts ? thank you


----------



## constaneum

GingerMaestro said:


> Hi,
> 
> has anyone else had any issues with any of these instruments crashing your DAW ? I’m playing a fast passage on the Flutes a2 staccatissimo patch and it keeps jamming up Logic and then crashing ? Any thoughts ? thank you



no problem with me on FL studio. very smooth


----------



## Bluemount Score

constaneum said:


> no problem with me on FL studio. very smooth


Another rare FL Studio user appeared! Greetings!


----------



## constaneum

Bluemount Score said:


> Another rare FL Studio user appeared! Greetings!


Greetings human.


----------



## yiph2

Repost but I used CSW for the lyrical passages in my Scorerelief entry:


----------



## cqd

Man, the cross-fading with the top dynamic layer is really starting to get to me with this library..I'd nearly call it a flaw, in an otherwise flawless series.. I hope something is done to address it in the update..


----------



## Tremendouz

cqd said:


> I'd nearly call it a flaw


I'd definitely call it a flaw. It makes me not want to do any crossfading mid-phrase (especially doing smooth fade-outs is difficult due to the volume bump in the lowest dynamic) but instead use expression.

I know woodwinds are extremely tricky to sample and program in this regard but still, not something I expected after the strings and brass.


----------



## gohrev

cqd said:


> Man, the cross-fading with the top dynamic layer is really starting to get to me with this library..I'd nearly call it a flaw, in an otherwise flawless series.. I hope something is done to address it in the update..


Yes, I agree. It's extremely noticeable in the otherwise beautiful clarinet and bassoon. Oboe is pretty much flawless.


----------



## GingerMaestro

berlin87 said:


> Yes, I agree. It's extremely noticeable in the otherwise beautiful clarinet and bassoon. Oboe is pretty much flawless.


Does anybody know if this is a relative easy fix ? I agree the clarinet is particularly noticeable ? Has anyone had a correspondence with Alex regarding this ? I assume they are aware...The oversight seems a bit weird considering everything else is so on the money....hopefully it will get fixed soon enough...


----------



## Lyonforever

borisb2 said:


> exactly.
> 
> We shouldnt forget: BWW Exp woodwinds are considered one of the best/realistic/lyrical sounding solo woodwinds. They have exactly 1 velocity layer and riding the modwheel just rides the velocity of 1 sample-layer .. sounds good to me - using it all the time. So the above trick just replicates that for other libraries


I agree. The tone of berlin woodwind expansion is awesome but I’m disappointed about the fact that there is no vibrato control. Especially for oboe and english horn. It sounds less realistic 😕.


----------



## Fitz

Does anyone else have MASSIVE tuning issues with this library? Sort of a deal breaker on several instruments.

What do you do to remedy this?


----------



## rlundv

Here is a combination of CSW and BWW Solo Expansion among other libraries. Wonderful workflow now that the Cinematic Studio-series is (almost) complete. Not encountered issues regarding tuning yet, but some samples in the Alto Flute are missing in some of the mics (as previously stated in this thread).

How do you guys find the mix?


----------



## Bluemount Score

Fitz said:


> Does anyone else have MASSIVE tuning issues with this library? Sort of a deal breaker on several instruments.
> 
> What do you do to remedy this?


If that's what you mean by "massive", the library tends to go sharp. Especially on flutes, especially when playing higher register / dynamics. To some part people say that's natural. However in my Kontakt with all the CSW instruments loaded, I set the Master tuning to 438Hz instead of 440. Not perfect, but generally somewhat more in tune than out of the box.


----------



## Bluemount Score

beyd770 said:


> Here is a combination of CSW and BWW Solo Expansion among other libraries. Wonderful workflow now that the Cinematic Studio-series is (almost) complete. Not encountered issues regarding tuning yet, but some samples in the Alto Flute are missing in some of the mics (as previously stated in this thread).
> 
> How do you guys find the mix?



Starting from about 0:36, there is some repetitve white-noise coming in and out. Where does that come from? I feel like the cymbal is a little to present and there are some mid-rangy build ups here and there, but overall it's a cool track and the instruments blend quite well together


----------



## rlundv

Bluemount Score said:


> Starting from about 0:36, there is some repetitve white-noise coming in and out. Where does that come from? I feel like the cymbal is a little to present and there are some mid-rangy build ups here and there, but overall it's a cool track and the instruments blend quite well together


Thanks man! I've located the noise, it's from the bass-pizz-samples, and once I replaced them, the noise went away. Cymbal-placement and mid-range is noted.


----------



## OttoPilot33

I just finished my first mockup featuring the new Cinematic Studio Woodwinds and I'm quite pleased with the result. I must say, though, that the process was not totally smooth and free of getting used to. The consistency between CSW and the other two Cinematic Studio releases in terms of functionality is admirable and it facilitates things very much, but there is at least one thing that demanded more attention than I expected: not all instruments maintain color consistency between sustain samples and marcado and short notes as velocity varies, especially noticeable it is in the case of clarinet whose marcato and short notes sound too much brighter than sustain samples for the same MIDI velocity. With flute, oboe and bassoon I had no big problem keyswitching from sustain to marcato to shorts back and forth maintaining a pretty consistent color in the samples played with any given velocity, but with clarinet I had to lower velocity with respect to sustain so marcato and short notes didn't sound too much brighter. I managed to learn to compensate (to lower velocity from 96 to 80 in forte passages, for instance) but it would be nice if there was more consistency in this aspect. I don't know if you have experienced the same thing.
This is the mockup in which I used *only* Cinematic Studio instruments:


----------



## I like music

OttoPilot33 said:


> I just finished my first mockup featuring the new Cinematic Studio Woodwinds and I'm quite pleased with the result. I must say, though, that the process was not totally smooth and free of getting used to. The consistency between CSW and the other two Cinematic Studio releases in terms of functionality is admirable and it facilitates things very much, but there is at least one thing that demanded more attention than I expected: not all instruments maintain color consistency between sustain samples and marcado and short notes as velocity varies, especially noticeable it is in the case of clarinet whose marcato and short notes sound too much brighter than sustain samples for the same MIDI velocity. With flute, oboe and bassoon I had no big problem keyswitching from sustain to marcato to shorts back and forth maintaining a pretty consistent color in the samples played with any given velocity, but with clarinet I had to lower velocity with respect to sustain so marcato and short notes didn't sound too much brighter. I managed to learn to compensate (to lower velocity from 96 to 80 in forte passages, for instance) but it would be nice if there was more consistency in this aspect. I don't know if you have experienced the same thing.
> This is the mockup in which I used *only* Cinematic Studio instruments:



I've only started listening to this, so can't comment fully but the winds do sound very nice (as does the rest). I liked before I even listened, because I noticed that you mocked nearly 9 minutes of this up. LOL, that's some dedication and effort.


----------



## constaneum

I like music said:


> I've only started listening to this, so can't comment fully but the winds do sound very nice (as does the rest). I liked before I even listened, because I noticed that you mocked nearly 9 minutes of this up. LOL, that's some dedication and effort.


when there's a will, there's a way. =)


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## I like music

constaneum said:


> when there's a will, there's a way. =)


I mocked up a 10 minute piece one. Copied it note for note from score (when I can't even really read music). So painful, yet so worth it.


----------



## constaneum

I like music said:


> I mocked up a 10 minute piece one. Copied it note for note from score (when I can't even really read music). So painful, yet so worth it.


most importantly, the end result is pleasing to the ears. hehe


----------



## OttoPilot33

constaneum said:


> when there's a will, there's a way. =)





I like music said:


> I mocked up a 10 minute piece one. Copied it note for note from score (when I can't even really read music). So painful, yet so worth it.


 I have an old version of Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet that's almost 20 minute long and Mozart's full serenade No. 13 with more than 17 minutes. I have the privilege of doing this just for fun, so time invested in it is time spent having fun.
Inputing notes can be facilitated a lot by using music OCR applications, but with long and complex scores it can be a lot of work anyway.
And yes, if the result is pleasing, it is very rewarding.


----------



## I like music

OttoPilot33 said:


> I have an old version of Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet that's almost 20 minute long and Mozart's full serenade No. 13 with more than 17 minutes. I have the privilege of doing this just for fun, so time invested in it is time spent having fun.
> Inputing notes can be facilitated a lot by using music OCR applications, but with long and complex scores it can be a lot of work anyway.
> And yes, if the result is pleasing, it is very rewarding.


Wow, you're on a different level if you mocked those up! Anyhow, nice work, and congrats.


----------



## kupo15

Anyone notices that sometimes patches stop working for some reason? Particularly trills come to mind they just stop working and I have to redrag the instrument in kontakt to reload it up for them to work. Reloading all samples simply doesn't work


----------



## constaneum

kupo15 said:


> Anyone notices that sometimes patches stop working for some reason? Particularly trills come to mind they just stop working and I have to redrag the instrument in kontakt to reload it up for them to work. Reloading all samples simply doesn't work


Nope. Don't have that issue.


----------



## Tremendouz

kupo15 said:


> Anyone notices that sometimes patches stop working for some reason? Particularly trills come to mind they just stop working and I have to redrag the instrument in kontakt to reload it up for them to work. Reloading all samples simply doesn't work


I don't have that but I have an issue where I'm drawing notes in the piano roll but suddenly the instrument stops making any sound as if the modwheel was all the way down and I have to start playback for a moment for the sound to come back. That with the whole CSSeries.

Mildly annoying at worst but I'm wondering it it happens for everyone and what causes it.


----------



## jonathanwright

kupo15 said:


> Anyone notices that sometimes patches stop working for some reason? Particularly trills come to mind they just stop working and I have to redrag the instrument in kontakt to reload it up for them to work. Reloading all samples simply doesn't work



Yes, I have had this happen a couple of times.


----------



## kupo15

Tremendouz said:


> I don't have that but I have an issue where I'm drawing notes in the piano roll but suddenly the instrument stops making any sound as if the modwheel was all the way down and I have to start playback for a moment for the sound to come back. That with the whole CSSeries.
> 
> Mildly annoying at worst but I'm wondering it it happens for everyone and what causes it.


that's happened to me at times too. I think it might be a daw quirk. I see the SP people mentioning needing to giggle things all the time in their videos. It is a minor annoyance for sure


----------



## gohrev

The less I fiddle with CC1, the better this library sounds. CC11 has taken a more prominent role in making things sound lovely. I’m riding the fader constantly as I play in my parts.

The little bits that require some CC1 can easily be drawn in, as you’ll really only need a handful of “dots” per phrase.

In Cubase11, you can now make very pretty parabola lines in the midi lanes.


----------



## clisma

I don’t normally post music, but I’ve been working with CSW quite a bit on orchestral pieces lately and have come to appreciate so much about it. Lovely tone, easy to use, and that marcato patch with the superimposed short articulation works really well. 

It has some kinks to work out, but I’m more than happy to use them as my main winds. Oh, and the tuning issue, in context, doesn’t bother me. I hear it, but kinda like it when doubling the low end. Weird.


----------



## Kony

clisma said:


> I don’t normally post music, but I’ve been working with CSW quite a bit on orchestral pieces lately and have come to appreciate so much about it. Lovely tone, easy to use, and that marcato patch with the superimposed short articulation works really well.
> 
> It has some kinks to work out, but I’m more than happy to use them as my main winds. Oh, and the tuning issue, in context, doesn’t bother me. I hear it, but kinda like it when doubling the low end. Weird.


Really like the piece - thanks for sharing


----------



## marclawsonmusic

clisma said:


> I don’t normally post music, but I’ve been working with CSW quite a bit on orchestral pieces lately and have come to appreciate so much about it. Lovely tone, easy to use, and that marcato patch with the superimposed short articulation works really well.
> 
> It has some kinks to work out, but I’m more than happy to use them as my main winds. Oh, and the tuning issue, in context, doesn’t bother me. I hear it, but kinda like it when doubling the low end. Weird.


Wow this is fantastic! Thanks for sharing


----------



## Buz

Great use of percussion. Is that the beta?


----------



## clisma

Buz said:


> Great use of percussion. Is that the beta?


Thank you. I think on that session it’s mostly True Strike 1 and bits of Hollywood Percussion.

Edit - I checked and it's all TS1. Only the tambourine and Xylophone are from HP.


----------



## kupo15

If you are going to be using the separate mics instead of the mix and adding a reverb plugin, what should be sending to reverb? My thought is that the close mics should not be sending to reverb but the other ones should be. Is that accurate?


----------



## Robert_G

Any news on when the update is coming?


----------



## NoamL

Just dropping a little note here... I think this library has been great so far. I have been going through some sessions of a project I have to deliver soon and replacing some emotional SSW solos with CSW, as with all CS libraries it's pretty quick to get nice, emotive results.


----------



## clisma

NoamL said:


> Just dropping a little note here... I think this library has been great so far. I have been going through some sessions of a project I have to deliver soon and replacing some emotional SSW solos with CSW, as with all CS libraries it's pretty quick to get nice, emotive results.


Agreed to the fullest. I'm in danger of neglecting HO for this wonderfully and easily interchangeable orchestra. It's quite easy and powerful to be able to get most of your emotion into MIDI like this. The biggest challenge for me is to make it sound less like itself.


----------



## chiefgeef

chiefgeef said:


> YAY! CSWW!!! i guess they came upon a windy forest filled with plenty wood, pine or cedar im sure of it.


cmon someone has to appreciate the immense corniness of this Magnitude 9 stupidly - type of joke I made. CMON !>!>!> 
First person to understand it gets a virtual "Mini-Twix" (Party-size) that I have in my pocket....MMMM yummmmyy. It is their rare peanut butter flavor only found in certain USA stores....ehhh? 
Hurry before it melts or if I sit on it by accident.


----------



## Kony

NoamL said:


> Just dropping a little note here... I think this library has been great so far. I have been going through some sessions of a project I have to deliver soon and replacing some emotional SSW solos with CSW, as with all CS libraries it's pretty quick to get nice, emotive results.


While I absolutely love CSW, I'm having problems with some release tails in the oboe sustain legato interfering with the start of the next sample note, with the result that the next unconnected note will sound muted (for want of a better word). Any tips/suggestions?


----------



## gohrev

kupo15 said:


> If you are going to be using the separate mics instead of the mix and adding a reverb plugin, what should be sending to reverb? My thought is that the close mics should not be sending to reverb but the other ones should be. Is that accurate?


This is a very interesting question, something I never thought about. 
I like to use close + room for CSS and CSB — the whole bunch gets sent to my reverb (Spaces II) bus.


----------



## kupo15

Here's my contribution to the Woodwind library. Just finished a major piece for my fighting game using all the CS libraries. You can even hear the wind tuning issue in the middle there haha kinda sounds...charming and adds some reaslism...right?


----------



## Zhao Shen

Spent a day slapping together a quick homage to Stardew Valley - thought it could be useful for folks here since the woodwinds are relatively exposed. All the woods are CSW with virtually no processing. Didn't spend much time on MIDI programming either.


----------



## constaneum

kupo15 said:


> Here's my contribution to the Woodwind library. Just finished a major piece for my fighting game using all the CS libraries. You can even hear the wind tuning issue in the middle there haha kinda sounds...charming and adds some reaslism...right?



since you use all CS libraries, care to highlight what mic you use for strings, brass and woodwinds? curious. haha


----------



## kupo15

constaneum said:


> since you use all CS libraries, care to highlight what mic you use for strings, brass and woodwinds? curious. haha


absolutely! Hopefully it won't be too disappointing as I just started messing around with the mics, but I mostly used the mix mics. Well more specifically, I did route each mic to a channel at 0db (except the room mic, kept that to default and bundled it in with the main mics) but I reshifted the close mics within the DAW back down to their normal default settings to mimic the mix settings.

But then at certain times, I boosted the close mics to highlight certain things, mainly the first horn line, the lowbrass part after, some on the low strings during their fast low stacc notes, and the trumpets/horn in the coda. Woodwinds I surprisingly did not touch at all lol Lots of the magic came from a friend of mine who mastered the track yesterday. I have my version which included my own reverb but compared to this final one, mine sounded much more muddy and unclear. So some EQ, compression and other master magic that I don't know about on the stereo track elevated the quality quite significantly.


----------



## rottoy

Did a quick transcription of the oboe part in this unused theme from
Wojciech Kilar's score to Francis Ford Coppola's adaptation of "Bram Stoker's Dracula",
showcasing the softest dynamic layer.

Mix mic with external reverb (Space Designer and ValhallaRoom)


----------



## Kony

rottoy said:


> Did a quick transcription of the oboe part in this unused theme from
> Wojciech Kilar's score to Francis Ford Coppola's adaptation of "Bram Stoker's Dracula",
> showcasing the softest dynamic layer.
> 
> Mix mic with external reverb (Space Designer and ValhallaRoom)


Sounds great - I appear to be having a unique problem with legato release tails affecting the next unconnected note. I noticed you're not affected by that in this piece so I may have to re-download the library. Unless there's something I'm missing. Can you shed any light on whether you had any issues with legato release tails?


----------



## kupo15

sounds really lovely!


rottoy said:


> Did a quick transcription of the oboe part in this unused theme from
> Wojciech Kilar's score to Francis Ford Coppola's adaptation of "Bram Stoker's Dracula",
> showcasing the softest dynamic layer.
> 
> Mix mic with external reverb (Space Designer and ValhallaRoom)


----------



## rottoy

Kony said:


> Can you shed any light on whether you had any issues with legato release tails?


I can't say I have. I would probably give it a re-download as well.


----------



## Eptesicus

NoamL said:


> Just dropping a little note here... I think this library has been great so far. I have been going through some sessions of a project I have to deliver soon and replacing some emotional SSW solos with CSW, as with all CS libraries it's pretty quick to get nice, emotive results.



Yep. Just like their strings, these are just so naturally expressive and lyrical.

Cinematic Studio really know how to make their samples sound musical.


----------



## Kony

rottoy said:


> I can't say I have. I would probably give it a re-download as well.


Thanks for the update. I'll check in with Alex and probably do that.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Managed to get a bit more done on the Rey's Theme mock-up, with CSW ofcourse - which I'm loving how easy they are to work with.


----------



## ahorsewhocandrive

did some CSW practice with this johnny williams tune


----------



## filipjonathan

ahorsewhocandrive said:


> did some CSW practice with this johnny williams tune



This sounds so lovely! Great job!


----------



## Scamper

Well, let's continue with the John Williams mockups then. I made a minute of Hedwig's Theme with (mostly) the Cinematic Studio Series. CSS+CSSS, CSW, CSB, SF Percussion and a few supplements.




I wanted to see how I can integrate CSW in the template and I think I settled on a combination of mics for the Cinematic Studio libraries.

Also, on my quest to find the right balance in workflow between getting some realism and fiddling around too much with MIDI notes, my goal was to play in all lines with marcato articulations as a sort of performance legato without doing much editing afterwards. Well surprise, I did need a whole bunch of editing, especially to match the dynamics better. Still, the marcato works fine and I barely used other articulations.

Using the whole Cinematic Studio Series, I find CSW is the easiest to work with, but that may also be because of the nature of the woodwinds. Especiallly with this mockup, I'm not super happy about the CSS runs and they don't really get loud. So, I'm really looking forward towards the CSS update with runs.

Otherwise, I find the woodwind part in the tutti section is really fun. So, for the sake of this thread, I'll also post it on its own.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Scamper said:


> Well, let's continue with the John Williams mockups then. I made a minute of Hedwig's Theme with (mostly) the Cinematic Studio Series. CSS+CSSS, CSW, CSB, SF Percussion and a few supplements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to see how I can integrate CSW in the template and I think I settled on a combination of mics for the Cinematic Studio libraries.
> 
> Also, on my quest to find the right balance in workflow between getting some realism and fiddling around too much with MIDI notes, my goal was to play in all lines with marcato articulations as a sort of performance legato without doing much editing afterwards. Well surprise, I did need a whole bunch of editing, especially to match the dynamics better. Still, the marcato works fine and I barely used other articulations.
> 
> Using the whole Cinematic Studio Series, I find CSW is the easiest to work with, but that may also be because of the nature of the woodwinds. Especiallly with this mockup, I'm not super happy about the CSS runs and they don't really get loud. So, I'm really looking forward towards the CSS update with runs.
> 
> Otherwise, I find the woodwind part in the tutti section is really fun. So, for the sake of this thread, I'll also post it on its own.



How did you create such realistic sounding string runs? I've never managed it before. That mock-up is legendary!


----------



## Scamper

NeonMediaKJT said:


> How did you create such realistic sounding string runs? I've never managed it before. That mock-up is legendary!


Glad you like it.

There is actually not that much to the runs with CSS.
Generally, I just the Marcato without spiccato overlay and follow the dynamics with CC1. I keep the velocity even, but since it's changing volume a bit, that could help even more.
The layering with the second violins and their counterparts from CSSS also gives more blur, but it sounds fine with a single CSS violins 1 track as well (demo example attached with just CSS violins 1).

The additional reverb probably also helps to blur it some more and to take off some definition.






There are some parts, where the marcato runs are too undefined and washy, especially in the basses, so I use staccato there (demo attached).






The only problem is, that it's always pretty quiet compared to other articulations, even with maxed dynamics. Hopefully the new runs in CSS will fix that. In the tutti of the Hedwig's Theme mockup, there should also be violin runs, but you can't hear much of them because they're so quiet.

Hope this helps.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Scamper said:


> Glad you like it.
> 
> There is actually not that much to the runs with CSS.
> Generally, I just the Marcato without spiccato overlay and follow the dynamics with CC1. I keep the velocity even, but since it's changing volume a bit, that could help even more.
> The layering with the second violins and their counterparts from CSSS also gives more blur, but it sounds fine with a single CSS violins 1 track as well (demo example attached with just CSS violins 1).
> 
> The additional reverb probably also helps to blur it some more and to take off some definition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are some parts, where the marcato runs are too undefined and washy, especially in the basses, so I use staccato there (demo attached).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only problem is, that it's always pretty quiet compared to other articulations, even with maxed dynamics. Hopefully the new runs in CSS will fix that. In the tutti of the Hedwig's Theme mockup, there should also be violin runs, but you can't hear much of them because they're so quiet.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thanks! I have tried using the Marcato patch before but it's exactly how you described, too quiet. Your demo sounded much better though


----------



## pawelmorytko

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Thanks! I have tried using the Marcato patch before but it's exactly how you described, too quiet. Your demo sounded much better though


CS2 can do those hedwig runs really well by the way, but I would just wait until the CSS gets the runs mode update, which will work pretty much the same way as the CS2 ones I believe (with trills overlay)


----------



## kupo15

Scamper said:


> The layering with the second violins and their counterparts from CSSS also gives more blur, but it sounds fine with a single CSS violins 1 track as well (demo example attached with just CSS violins 1).


Would you say getting the CSSS is worth getting to add them alongside the section patches and have them lead like a actual first chair would? I'm considering getting them.

Thanks so much for sharing those runs, they do sound quite fantastic and like the recording. I'm finding that its a matter of knowing what patches work well in creating certain sounds and its just trial an error at first. Like I would probably figure to turn on the spicc overlay. Are those the marcato not legato?

Glad to know I'm not the only one experiencing marcato patches being rather quiet. I feel like I can get a bigger volume from the legato patches for some reason especially the lower strings. Perhaps you will have to balance the track around those or create another kontakt instrument just for marcatos and boost the gain on them


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

kupo15 said:


> Would you say getting the CSSS is worth getting to add them alongside the section patches and have them lead like a actual first chair would? I'm considering getting them.
> 
> Thanks so much for sharing those runs, they do sound quite fantastic and like the recording. I'm finding that its a matter of knowing what patches work well in creating certain sounds and its just trial an error at first. Like I would probably figure to turn on the spicc overlay. Are those the marcato not legato?
> 
> Glad to know I'm not the only one experiencing marcato patches being rather quiet. I feel like I can get a bigger volume from the legato patches for some reason especially the lower strings. Perhaps you will have to balance the track around those or create another kontakt instrument just for marcatos and boost the gain on them


I find CSSS makes the CSS strings sound more detailed. They go together perfectly.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

pawelmorytko said:


> CS2 can do those hedwig runs really well by the way, but I would just wait until the CSS gets the runs mode update, which will work pretty much the same way as the CS2 ones I believe (with trills overlay)


was there any hint at when this CSS run patch will be added?


----------



## gohrev

Soon®


----------



## pawelmorytko

NeonMediaKJT said:


> was there any hint at when this CSS run patch will be added?


Early 2021 im sure he said in the CSW video


----------



## Scamper

kupo15 said:


> Would you say getting the CSSS is worth getting to add them alongside the section patches and have them lead like a actual first chair would? I'm considering getting them.
> 
> Thanks so much for sharing those runs, they do sound quite fantastic and like the recording. I'm finding that its a matter of knowing what patches work well in creating certain sounds and its just trial an error at first. Like I would probably figure to turn on the spicc overlay. Are those the marcato not legato?


I don't have much experience with CSSS yet, but as was said, CSSS layered together with CSS gives more detail, definition and it brightens the sound as well, which is just what CSS needs. Then you can also use them as first chair solos. If you haven't yet, you should check out the official first chair video for CSSS, which shows the possibilities quite well.

True, at first I also thought to use the spiccato overlay, but it's too much definition. I haven't really tried it without legato, but I'm using the marcato patch with legato. 

It would be so great, if you could set the volume for different articulations differently. I think the pizzicatos could be quieter too. Splitting it into multiple tracks will work, but it's a bit annoying, if you can't keep everything tidy on one track.


----------



## constaneum

gohrev said:


> Soon®


We can start a CSS run thread if you want. 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Tinesaeriel

I posted the finished re-score video for this piece a while, but I thought it'd be fun to post the score only piece for my entry for Scoring Relief. The woodwinds in this library were really something else - super realistic. Not perfect - the shorts sound a little wonky exposed, but I figure that's more so on me for not programming them as thoroughly, but they're still amazing to work with, and they sound cohesive in a way that most woodwinds libraries before haven't, outside of woodwind tutti instruments in libraries like Albion ONE, Symphobia, or Hollywoodwinds. 

Also posted is the woodwinds stem, which is entirely CSW; it only has Section Send reverb and panning applied, but no EQ. Mics used were the Room at +6dB and OH at +0.6dB.


----------



## Soundbed

Everyone is still tuning the flutes and piccolos manually?

I didn’t think it was going to be such an issue at first.

But now that I’ve tried to use CSW in a few pieces, it’s pretty frustrating trying to tune different parts of the ranges for solo flute, a2 and piccolo. Even within a section of the range, the notes don’t sound “well tempered” relative to my other libraries. 

I hadn’t realized the extent to which just intonation now pervades my sensibilities. 

That Berlin Woodwinds Soloists ad is beckoning. Because spending money solves sample woes.

Right?


----------



## constaneum

i didn't do any tuning at all though. hmm


----------



## Soundbed

constaneum said:


> i didn't do any tuning at all though. hmm


The two pieces you posted since page 41 avoided the most troublesome areas of the flute and piccolo ranges, and you cleverly did not feature the tuning issues. This is what I expected would happen to me ... until I started writing parts that made me consider switching to another sampled woodwinds product, or trying this:





__





Cinematic Studio Woodwinds - SPINOFF AFTER RELEASE


I like it! I like the video even more. Is this just QuickTime screen recordings that you edited? It looks very vibrant. Thank you for watching! I filmed it with the hope that these melodies could be seen in this scene with a screen flow. And I used Photoshop and Final Cut for image editing and...




vi-control.net


----------



## pawelmorytko

Finally finished with Rey's Theme! What started as a wee test for CSW ended up being a full blown mockup...


----------



## muziksculp

pawelmorytko said:


> Finally finished with Rey's Theme! What started as a wee test for CSW ended up being a full blown mockup...



This Sounds Great ! Thanks for sharing. 

I noticed you used Albion-One as well for the Strings, I'm curious to know, what patch/s you added to your strings from Albion-One that you felt was necessary or helpful to have in this track, given all the other Strings you had used ? 

Besides the very nice sounding CSW woods, I also like JXL-Brass in this track, wonderful Horns ! I don't have OT-JXL Brass, but I'm looking forward to buy some of its instruments ala-carte. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## pawelmorytko

muziksculp said:


> This Sounds Great ! Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I noticed you used Albion-One as well for the Strings, I'm curious to know, what patch/s you added to your strings from Albion-One that you felt was necessary or helpful to have in this track, given all the other Strings you had used ?
> 
> Besides the very nice sounding CSW woods, I also like JXL-Brass in this track, wonderful Horns ! I don't have OT-JXL Brass, but I'm looking forward to buy some of its instruments ala-carte.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


Thank you! Albion and SCS are pretty much all of the pizzicato strings and SCS also a subtle layer for some violins/violas. The lead melody horns are actually mostly CSB ones, the softer stuff is JXL though as it worked better with the soft articulation.


----------



## muziksculp

pawelmorytko said:


> Thank you! Albion and SCS are pretty much all of the pizzicato strings and SCS also a subtle layer for some violins/violas. The lead melody horns are actually mostly CSB ones, the softer stuff is JXL though as it worked better with the soft articulation.


Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## filipjonathan

pawelmorytko said:


> Finally finished with Rey's Theme! What started as a wee test for CSW ended up being a full blown mockup...



Amazing!


----------



## yiph2

Speaking of mockups, here's the ET Flying Theme which uses both SSW and CSW


----------



## gohrev

yiph2 said:


> Speaking of mockups, here's the ET Flying Theme which uses both SSW and CSW



<3 More, more!!!


----------



## stigc56

Just fired up under CSWW today in a project to replace (maybe) my Infinite WW. Must say I'm really disappointed. The sound is wonderful, but the programming is not good. The release time of many of the instruments are really long, and I can't see where this can be adjusted. Even with only close mics on I can't have a tone that stops without this ringing. Using the CC1 to adjust velxfade, gives some really annoying artifacts, phasing I assume. I have been through many of the 59 pages in this thread and I can even hear the problems in the demo some of you have presented.
Anyone with similar experience?


----------



## Evans

stigc56 said:


> Just fired up under CSWW today in a project to replace (maybe) my Infinite WW. Must say I'm really disappointed. The sound is wonderful, but the programming is not good. The release time of many of the instruments are really long, and I can't see where this can be adjusted. Even with only close mics on I can't have a tone that stops without this ringing. Using the CC1 to adjust velxfade, gives some really annoying artifacts, phasing I assume. I have been through many of the 59 pages in this thread and I can even hear the problems in the demo some of you have presented.
> Anyone with similar experience?


You are not alone. I've set CSW aside to a backup drive (I was moving things around for a new VEPro split across servers, and am not going to bother finding it a home for the time being).

Inconsistent attacks, inconsistent releases, tuning issues, and _extremely _poor crossfading for solo patches (I recall having difficulty for some instruments in finding a _single _CC1 value that didn't sound like two players at once).

People can make lovely music with it; Alex's demos prove that. But my personal skills, patience, and use cases don't line up well with its current state. I'm excited to revisit after an update, because some of its recordings are exactly the tone I've been looking for.


----------



## stigc56

Evans said:


> You are not alone. I've set CSW aside to a backup drive (I was moving things around for a new VEPro split across servers, and am not going to bother finding it a home for the time being).
> 
> Inconsistent attacks, inconsistent releases, tuning issues, and _extremely _poor crossfading for solo patches (I recall having difficulty for some instruments in finding a _single _CC1 value that didn't sound like two players at once).
> 
> People can make lovely music with it; Alex's demos prove that. But my personal skills, patience, and use cases don't line up well with its current state. I'm excited to revisit after an update, because some of its recordings are exactly the tone I've been looking for.


Oh thank you! Sometimes I think I'm the only one hearing lots of funny "things" from all my libs. I will turn to my Berlin Woodwinds!


----------



## cqd

Leave CC1 stationary and use cc11 for expression..


----------



## Evans

cqd said:


> Leave CC1 stationary and use cc11 for expression..


Obviously, that's the general guidance for CSW. But there are cases in which dialing into a specific CC1 value - and keeping it there - does not result in a true "solo" across the entire instrument's range.

I recall having trouble with the clarinet. I'd find a value that sounded clean until I hit a certain note. Okay, let's adjust a bit. Nope, now that puts a different note into a bad situation.

Sure, I can adjust CC1 note-by-note to get rid of of the bad bits. Perhaps CC1 = 60, for example, works for everything except, I dunno, E4 or something. Then, I could tweak just that note to 61 or whatever. Maybe there are specific values per patch that are the perfect inflection points between layers, and I simply didn't find them all.

Or, I can use another library.


----------



## jonathanwright

stigc56 said:


> Just fired up under CSWW today in a project to replace (maybe) my Infinite WW. Must say I'm really disappointed. The sound is wonderful, but the programming is not good. The release time of many of the instruments are really long, and I can't see where this can be adjusted. Even with only close mics on I can't have a tone that stops without this ringing. Using the CC1 to adjust velxfade, gives some really annoying artifacts, phasing I assume. I have been through many of the 59 pages in this thread and I can even hear the problems in the demo some of you have presented.
> Anyone with similar experience?


Same here, I bought it a couple of weeks ago and am quite disappointed. I've only used it in one project, and the tuning/crossfading issues were a complete pain.


----------



## stigc56

Can I sell it, do you think?
I have run a revision over my WW libraries! 
VSL WW, Berlin WW, Infinite WW, BBSCO WW and CSWW. And then SWAM and all the others. I have to block my PayPal account.


----------



## Eptesicus

I'm surprised that some of you think this. I think its one of the best sounding and easy to use woodwind libraries available.

All the demos i have heard of it knock spots of most libraries, and its so easy to get an expressive performance out of it and very easy to use.

You guys make it sound as though crossfading isnt an issue in loads of other libraries as well. I havent heard a single demo of this yet that has made me think "oh that doesnt sound as good as library X". I cant say that for most other libraries.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Definitely sounds a hell of a lot better than Infinite Woodwinds... (I own both).


----------



## N.Caffrey

I agree that the tuning can be a bit a pain sometimes.. will they fix it or that would require new recordings?


----------



## stigc56

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Definitely sounds a hell of a lot better than Infinite Woodwinds... (I own both).


No crossfading in Infinite Woodwinds, of course. I just bought Berlin Woodwinds Soloist 1 & 2, found out that I could get a reduction, because I already had some of the old ones. They definitely sounds better.
I think the issue I have with CSW can be heard in the run through here at 0:16


The clarinet has a strange release.
Phasing issue: 0:38
Also the Bassoon at 3:06
And remember that this is the presentation and one could expect that it is edited with that in mind.

I find that instruments from this library has a more natural tone - bear in mind that the reverb is NOT part of the sample:

Right now I'm trying to match the sound of my template to the sound here:

I know it's ambitious but I'll give it a try.


----------



## Eptesicus

stigc56 said:


> No crossfading in Infinite Woodwinds, of course. I just bought Berlin Woodwinds Soloist 1 & 2, found out that I could get a reduction, because I already had some of the old ones. They definitely sounds better.
> I think the issue I have with CSW can be heard in the run through here at 0:16
> 
> 
> The clarinet has a strange release.
> Phasing issue: 0:38
> Also the Bassoon at 3:06
> And remember that this is the presentation and one could expect that it is edited with that in mind.
> 
> I find that instruments from this library has a more natural tone - bear in mind that the reverb is NOT part of the sample:
> 
> Right now I'm trying to match the sound of my template to the sound here:
> 
> I know it's ambitious but I'll give it a try.




I dont know man. Seems extra picky here. I mean i can nitpick at a million things in the Berlin video as well if i wanted to (losing ambience/changing perceived space between transitions/notes for one!).


----------



## jneebz

N.Caffrey said:


> I agree that the tuning can be a bit a pain sometimes.. will they fix it or that would require new recordings?


I'm interested in this answer also...


----------



## stigc56

Eptesicus said:


> I dont know man. Seems extra picky here. I mean i can nitpick at a million things in the Berlin video as well if i wanted to (losing ambience/changing perceived space between transitions/notes for one!).


Well it's your opinion. I think it's very important to have precision in these matters. In the end it will influence the sound. And you are right about, errors with pans, volume and amount of reverb, but I have found that to be the case with some of the Spitfire libraries I have. I just want the best. The new OT soloist is in my opinion the best ww I've heard.


----------



## Tremendouz

There's definitely a lot to improve. The releases are sometimes louder than the note itself, and the tails are quite long. Also, the clarinet's legato is quite wonky, it feels like the sample release times are too long and as the result the previous note bleeds into the next one. No such issue with the flute for example so I'm hoping it's something that can be fixed without re-recording.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

stigc56 said:


> No crossfading in Infinite Woodwinds, of course.


True - but then again, I don't think their woodwinds tonally sound like woodwinds...especially that oboe.


----------



## kupo15

pawelmorytko said:


> Finally finished with Rey's Theme! What started as a wee test for CSW ended up being a full blown mockup...



That sounds fricken amazing man! Excellent job, just wow! Did you master it yourself afterwards too? Got a really nice clean and rounded sound there!


----------



## constaneum

ALittleNightMusic said:


> True - but then again, I don't think their woodwinds tonally sound like woodwinds...especially that oboe.



yea. I think their sax and brass sounds better. the other woodwinds not as good. i'm quite interested in the brass even though i have CSB.


----------



## gohrev

Just thought I'd share this..

- For CSS and CSW I created 3 Logical Editor presets, each to be triggered at/between certain velocity levels. CSB only requires 2 presets, as it features 2 legato speeds.
- The screenshot shows the preset for CSW: When the velocity is 101 or more, the legato delay is 90ms
- With Key Commands you can trigger all 2 or 3 presets with one keystroke while you are working in the Key Editor for said instrument. I opted for Ctrl+F1 for CSS, Ctrl+F2 for CSB, Ctrl+F3 for CSW.

(The legato offset values can be found in the manuals)

*In the second screenshot you'll see the following:*
- Different velocity levels to trigger certain legato speeds
- After playing in the notes, and dragging / quantizing them to their 'normal' locations, I will noodle around with the velocities until it sounds just right
- Once I am satisfied, I will select all notes _except_ for the first note of a phrase: That one will always be played _on_ the beat.

_Last but not least: Playing in your phrases using shorts (e.g. staccato) makes life a lot easier _


----------



## cqd

Still waiting patiently for the CSS and CSB updates..


----------



## pawelmorytko

kupo15 said:


> That sounds fricken amazing man! Excellent job, just wow! Did you master it yourself afterwards too? Got a really nice clean and rounded sound there!


Cheers, there's honestly not much to the mastering, it's just an instance of Izotope Ozone with slight eq, compression and limiter, just playing around with the settings and going with what my ears think sounds good!


----------



## Robert_G

2 months later and we still have a broken alto flute.....anyone know anything?


----------



## Rob Elliott

Having worked with CSW now a few months - notwithstanding the outstanding issues - I really love how it sounds with CSS/CSB. The flutes tuning is gnawing at me though. I'd love to see that tuned up just a bit (especially higher it goes.) 

In the middle of a 'big score' ROMCOM right now so of course I'd love to see the update soon.


----------



## Soundbed

Rob Elliott said:


> Having worked with CSW now a few months - notwithstanding the outstanding issues - I really love how it sounds with CSS/CSB. The flutes tuning is gnawing at me though. I'd love to see that tuned up just a bit (especially higher it goes.)
> 
> In the middle of a 'big score' ROMCOM right now so of course I'd love to see the update soon.


Are you using a "system" like the one mentioned some pages earlier in this thread to tune them, get them close? I am sort of avoiding them until the tuning can be addressed because ... I was too lazy to keep trying to get them more in tune across the range.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Rob Elliott said:


> The flutes tuning is gnawing at me though.


Same here... Sometimes it's okay and blends well enough, but sometimes it really sticks out like a sore thumb


----------



## Rob Elliott

Rob Elliott said:


> Having worked with CSW now a few months - notwithstanding the outstanding issues - I really love how it sounds with CSS/CSB. The flutes tuning is gnawing at me though. I'd love to see that tuned up just a bit (especially higher it goes.)
> 
> In the middle of a 'big score' ROMCOM right now so of course I'd love to see the update soon.


I probably missed the system mentioned earlier. It is 'ok' in most situations. When it is not I simply bring it back in the mix just a tad. I know that's lazy but with 'this' score I have my hands full just keeping '60' players busy.  With that I am not making huge sacrifices BUT I would like it improved (I don't want to 'overcorrected - sap the LIFE out of the samples though)


----------



## Soundbed

Piano Pete said:


> For those who are having tuning issues with the library, the best compromise I have found is by adjusting the mater tune of Kontakt and then proceed to fine tune with the instrument's tune knob. This means that you will need to have different instances of kontakt per instrument, but a compromise is a compromise.
> 
> *THIS IS NOT A PERFECT FIX,* but it works. I tried making a multi script to trigger a CC to control the instruments tune knob; however, the midi 1.0 resolution is too coarse—thus making my attempt unsuccessful.
> 
> Part A:
> 
> For the flute, a decent starting ground I found is with the M*aster Tuning at 430.70* and the I*nstrument Tuning at .18*. You can season to taste, and you will probably need to based on the registers you are writing. *This tuning is predominantly aimed at D5 and above.*
> 
> The tuning provided above tames the overall sharp quality of the middle and upper register of the flute down to a more acceptable range. *It is still sharp!* However, it is closer to the realm of acceptable, and down to an amount that most non-musicians will not recognize. Please realize that by taking care of the upper range, you are flattening the lower portion. C3-C4 will sag a bit with the layout above. In reality, C3-C5 sag more than desirable.
> 
> Fine tune of *.28* works OK for *C3-C5*.
> Fine tune of *.18 *works better form *D5+.*
> 
> Part B:
> 
> Because this is a static "fix" I would recommend loading up several instance of kontakt with slightly different Tunings. One for "low" and one for "High." If you want to add a third for that middle ground, for any licks that would cross that dividing line, that may be worth while. Probably for most phrases—however—either of the above recommendations may work. Live players are never perfect anyways, so I'd make this call based on if the phrase is going to go back into the upper register or descend and which sounds better.
> 
> Ideally, some form of offset with key follow would be ideal, to eleviate the need to have separate instances with separate tuning, but this is kind of a bazooka fix: it is not elegant.
> 
> Feel free to rinse and repeat this for any of the other instruments you find problematic. I have not found this solution to be as destructive to the tone of the library as say a pitch correction plugin. This actually resolved a lot of problems I have been having with CSW.
> 
> *EDIT*
> 
> To put my mind at ease for anyone who just scrolls through threads by title, I made a separate thread linking to this post.
> 
> *END EDIT*
> 
> Second Edit: Clarinet *Master Tuning 440*, *Instrument Tuning -.05*
> 
> Currently, I have all other instruments effectively normal. Playing in unions and close harmony is smooth as expected!







__





Cinematic Studio Woodwinds - SPINOFF AFTER RELEASE


I like it! I like the video even more. Is this just QuickTime screen recordings that you edited? It looks very vibrant. Thank you for watching! I filmed it with the hope that these melodies could be seen in this scene with a screen flow. And I used Photoshop and Final Cut for image editing and...




vi-control.net





Bringing this post to the most recent part of the the thread, because I still don't understand how "forums" work.


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

In the project, I'm currently working on, I accidentally "bumped" the CC1 curve for the CSW harmony multi, and then I spent about half an hour combing through all instances of Kontakt, thinking I must've messed with the "Tune" slider somewhere, because everything sounded woefully out of tune.
Turned out, it was a bass clarinet at it's higher dynamic (and maybe also a bassoon).


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

I wonder if this is all CSW? I can hear the flute player breathing and these audio demos were uploaded recently on the official website.

In the CSS section, too, replenishment. The same author is Arnaud Derhan.


----------



## Scamper

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I wonder if this is all CSW? I can hear the flute player breathing and these audio demos were uploaded recently on the official website.
> 
> In the CSS section, too, replenishment. The same author is Arnaud Derhan.



Interesting find, these classical CSS/CSW mockups. I'm also curious about the breathing, but maybe it's just such a thorough and detailed mockup, that breathing noises were manually added to make it even more realistic.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Scamper said:


> Interesting find, these classical CSS/CSW mockups. I'm also curious about the breathing, but maybe it's just such a thorough and detailed mockup, that breathing noises were manually added to make it even more realistic.


I’m highly skeptical of the sample authenticity— his Rachmaninov concerto piano sounds subpar to put it kindly, and then there are human breaths taking place in this. 🧐

Though, the VI version of VSL Dimension Strings feature samples of chairs creaking, coughing, papers shuffling, sniffing, page turns, finger noises, and all kinds of “imperfect” stuff!


----------



## RMH

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I wonder if this is all CSW? I can hear the flute player breathing and these audio demos were uploaded recently on the official website.
> 
> In the CSS section, too, replenishment. The same author is Arnaud Derhan.



Amzing!


----------



## John Longley

The winds sound authentic until about 1:10, then something in the shorts sounds too perfect. Interested to learn how wrong I am. RE: MSND


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Scamper said:


> Interesting find, these classical CSS/CSW mockups. I'm also curious about the breathing, but maybe it's just such a thorough and detailed mockup, that breathing noises were manually added to make it even more realistic.


I am hearing a lot of 'wind' in the +5K range. Is it possible this is just EQ'd to highlight those breaths?

I don't have the library so don't know if those sounds are in the samples or not... maybe they added it after the fact...still adds a nice realism until about 0:50 when I hear too much 'wind' overall. Still pretty cool!


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

At 19seconds into the Bizet, there is absolutely a breath... but it sounds like a breath from the chest instead of the diaphragm. Hmm.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> At 19seconds into the Bizet, there is absolutely a breath... but it sounds like a breath from the chest instead of the diaphragm. Hmm.


Sampled breaths! There is a 'chest' articulation, and a 'diaphragm' articulation. Now, which keyswitch should I use?


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Spitfire uses chest... VSL and OT use diaphragm. You be the judge!


----------



## Paul Cardon

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> I’m highly skeptical of the sample authenticity— his Rachmaninov concerto piano sounds subpar to put it kindly, and then there are human breaths taking place in this. 🧐
> 
> Though, the VI version of VSL Dimension Strings feature samples of chairs creaking, coughing, papers shuffling, sniffing, page turns, finger noises, and all kinds of “imperfect” stuff!


It sounds like I know CSW sounds. Been using it extensively lately, and yeah, the breaths are definitely added. They don't sound quite right to me, but I love the thoroughness. Makes sense if he's closely referencing other recordings.

Also, I think it's fair to say he was using different libraries and different techniques on those others as they're over half a year old now.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

@Paul Cardon Makes sense. I like how the flute sounded a whole lot, but not necessarily the double reeds... and so with those breaths and the end of the first phrase dropped, the first thought was that it could have been an average or student player recorded live.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Paul Cardon said:


> It sounds like I know CSW sounds. Been using it extensively lately, and yeah, the breaths are definitely added. They don't sound quite right to me, but I love the thoroughness. Makes sense if he's closely referencing other recordings.
> 
> Also, I think it's fair to say he was using different libraries and different techniques on those others as they're over half a year old now.


Hi Paul, did you have any trouble with the tuning on CSW? I heard about some tuning issues early on and that made me hesitate buying them. Thanks.


----------



## Paul Cardon

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hi Paul, did you have any trouble with the tuning on CSW? I heard about some tuning issues early on and that made me hesitate buying them. Thanks.


Yes.

I don't regret buying it because I'm getting so much use out of it, but some of it is gnarlier than it should've ever been. High notes bending away from center mostly. Pretty sure it'll get fixed (on the usual sort of CS Series schedule)


----------



## Eptesicus

pawelmorytko said:


> Finally finished with Rey's Theme! What started as a wee test for CSW ended up being a full blown mockup...




This is really good. It sounds remarkably authentic in most places.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Eptesicus said:


> This is really good. It sounds remarkably authentic in most places.


Cheers, that's great to hear!


----------



## rottoy

I revisited the "Anakin's Theme" mockup I did with Cinematic Studio Woodwinds and Cinewinds Core some months ago. You can see the layout of the arrangement below.

CSW = Cinematic Studio Woodwinds
CW = CineWinds Core
View attachment Anakin's Theme CSW & CWC Alternative.mp3





"Mix" mic is used on Cinematic Studio Woodwinds, "Close" mic used on CineWinds Core.
Sweetened with some EQ and ValhallaRoom.


----------



## Robert_G

5 months and still no update with the promised fixes. Great company for sound and quality, but slow as freaking molasses. The updates were supposed to be a few weeks after the release in January.


----------



## Odum Abekah

Robert_G said:


> 5 months and still no update with the promised fixes. Great company for sound and quality, but slow as freaking molasses. The updates were supposed to be a few weeks after the release in January.



I wanted to check in on this as well. A bit disappointing but I do have other libraries I can sketch with while waiting.


----------



## ethormusic

Robert_G said:


> 5 months and still no update with the promised fixes. Great company for sound and quality, but slow as freaking molasses. The updates were supposed to be a few weeks after the release in January.


It is what it is. They're a small team of devs in Australia in the midst of a pandemic on lockdown. I will assume the updates will be released when Cinematic Studio Percussion is released. There is not as much of a need for percussion with true legatos so I'm not necessarily in a huge rush to get Cinematic Studio Perc either. If the updates for CSS and CSW come sooner than that all the better.


----------



## Sovereign

Woohoo, update...



> What's in it?​Firstly, both Solo Flute and Solo Alto Flute articulations are now working correctly across all microphones. In addition we've added a powerful new feature, the "Low Latency" legato mode. With all the realism, and none of the delay, this mode can dramatically cut down on sequencing time and editing, allowing you to create more expressive, agile and playful melodies with ease.
> 
> The regular delayed legato is still there however, and has also been improved, making it more realistic and easy to achieve flowing, human-sounding phrases than ever before. We have renamed this legato mode to "Expressive", which you will see on the main GUI. Both of these modes can be selected with the velocity-sensitive functionality of the keyswitch, which is C0 by default. Press it at a velocity of 0-64 to select Low Latency mode, or 65-127 for Expressive.
> 
> We have also refined the tuning on a number of instruments, particularly the upper register of the solo flute. This makes doubling with other instruments like the oboe sound tighter and more polished all round. Additional tuning tweaks will be included in subsequent updates on an ongoing basis.
> 
> Other improvements have been made to the x-fading between non-vibrato and vibrato samples, and to the dynamic x-fading - especially on Marcato; there is better volume matching of the release samples to the sustains; and we also added a subtle accent to isolated sustains notes and legato repetitions played above a velocity of 64.
> 
> *How do you get it?*
> 
> Due to the complexity of the update itself, it was necessary for us to "repackage" the library, which unfortunately means you'll need to re-download the entire library again. Prior to downloading, you'll need to delete your current "Cinematic Studio Woodwinds" folder entirely, and then replace it with the new one, in the same location. By downloading it to the same location, that will mean you will be able to continue using the library without issue.
> 
> If you are currently in the middle of a project, we recommend NOT updating immediately. The easiest option would be to wait until you've finished any existing projects containing CSW. The reason for this is that Kontakt patches are saved within a DAW's project file - this means that any projects saved prior to updating will contain the old patches. Therefore after updating, if you wish to continue working on any projects saved prior to installing the update, please make sure you reload any CSW patches used. If you do delay updating and your links expire please drop us a note via the Support button and we'll happily reactivate your links.
> 
> Please be advised that we are expecting a bit of traffic with this release so if you could please wait a few days you may get better download speeds. Apologies for the inconvenience, please reach out to us via a support ticket on our website if you need further information or assistance.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Nice!!


----------



## mybadmemory

So, the low latency mode is added but the old legato mode is still using multiple different delay times as before? I would have really hoped for a low latency mode with zero delay, and a high latency mode with *one consistent* maximum delay for everything. Or did I misunderstand?


----------



## Sovereign

Zero delay is impossible if you want to have any sort of proper legato transition remaining. The low latency mode should work fine.


----------



## mybadmemory

Sovereign said:


> Zero delay is impossible if you want to have any sort of proper legato transition remaining. The low latency mode should work fine.


Yes I understand, I was just a little surprised to hear that the non-low-latency mode / regular legato still has the multiple different delay times, rather than having made them all one and the same.

I wish developers had a simple switch between no delay for recording, and maximum *but consistent* delay for playback, where you get the full transitions for everything. I having a hard time understanding the multiple different delay times which makes it impossible to use track delay and forces you to move individual notes one by one. Why not just make them all the same (the largest value needed)?


----------



## Sovereign

Just fired up a couple of patches, legato and crossfading is much improved. Thanks Alex!


----------



## galactic orange

Sovereign said:


> Woohoo, update...


Did I miss this? I don’t see an email, a post, or anything on the update page on their site. Is there a link?


----------



## Bluemount Score

Legato was great before, now I'm curious to try this out after work


----------



## Bluemount Score

galactic orange said:


> Did I miss this? I don’t see an email, a post, or anything on the update page on their site. Is there a link?


Don't see anything myself either so far


----------



## axb312

Sovereign said:


> Just fired up a couple of patches, legato and crossfading is much improved. Thanks Alex!


Post some examples/ comparison if you have the time pls. Didn't get the mail yet here..


----------



## Rob Elliott

Is this ONLY CSW (or have the legato/crossfading improvements been applied to CSS/CSSS as well)?


----------



## MA-Simon

I want that CSS runs update, please. It will probably be delayed until next year.


----------



## Pablocrespo

Don´t have CSS, and I hope the new legato gets ported, but I think we´ll still have to nudge the notes to have them played in time with the grid, with the three legato speeds?

I hope Alex makes a quick video showing the new workflow.

I had hoped for a lookahead function like the new MSS update


----------



## Soundbed

mybadmemory said:


> I wish developers had a simple switch between no delay for recording, and maximum *but consistent* delay for playback


Like AudioBro MSS :D


----------



## Robert_G

Guess I'll ask too. Where do you find the update?


----------



## Rob Elliott

Robert_G said:


> Guess I'll ask too. Where do you find the update?


I bet so his servers don't fry - Alex is dishing these (links) out - staggered.


----------



## Rob Elliott

Having said that - I haven't gotten one yet. I knew I should have sent a Christmas card. Karma.


----------



## muziksculp

Sovereign said:


> Woohoo, update...


Thanks for the heads up on the CSW Update 

Looking forward to the CSS and CSB updates, and CSP Release.


----------



## muziksculp

Do you think Alex W. will post a video showing the improvements of this CSW Update ?


----------



## muziksculp

So the update downloads are sent via email ? 

The update requires a full install of the library, I wonder why it wasn't done via Native Access ?


----------



## Rob Elliott

I agree on Native Instruments having the responsibility to get this out to users. I think with the 'per each fee' Alex pays them - they could manage this.


----------



## thesteelydane

Sorry if I'm stupid, but how do you get this update? No email so far...


----------



## Symfoniq

thesteelydane said:


> Sorry if I'm stupid, but how do you get this update? No email so far...


Me neither. I suspect notifications are being batched.


----------



## axb312

thesteelydane said:


> Sorry if I'm stupid, but how do you get this update? No email so far...


We're all waiting


----------



## tcb

I think you can re-download csw then get new edition automatically


----------



## Rob Elliott

tcb said:


> I think you can re-download csw then get new edition automatically


How? Checked site out and no 'options' to do so. :(


----------



## muziksculp

tcb said:


> I think you can re-download csw then get new edition automatically


That's what I'm guessing. Re-Downloading it from Native Access. But how do we know that the update is available at NA ? I checked my NA account, and it doesn't show any CSW Update.


----------



## Denkii

Soundbed said:


> Like AudioBro MSS :D


Someone's going strong...second similar post I've read in the last 5 minutes.


----------



## Denkii

muziksculp said:


> That's what I'm guessing. Re-Downloading it from Native Access. But how do we know that the update is available at NA ? I checked my NA account, and it doesn't show any CSW Update.


Arent CS libraries downloaded via continuata or something similar? Iirc I had to ask them to give me a new link because I constantly had 20 kbps download speed or something like that.

Edit: forget what I said...I'm stupid and forgot that they are Kontakt player libraries.
I was so sure that it was CSS back then where I had that problem...ah well I'll never know.


----------



## Rob Elliott

Denkii said:


> Arent CS libraries downloaded via continuata or something similar? Iirc I had to ask them to give me a new link because I constantly had 20 kbps download speed or something like that.


Probably - NI logged in (their website) - no options. Native Access - shows 1.0. I must be patient grasshopper.


----------



## muziksculp

I wonder how @Sovereign found out about the update ? email maybe ?

They also mention :

Quote "Please be advised that we are expecting a bit of traffic with this release so if you could please wait a few days you may get better download speeds. Apologies for the inconvenience, please reach out to us via a support ticket on our website if you need further information or assistance."


----------



## Sovereign

muziksculp said:


> I wonder how @Sovereign found out about the update ? email maybe ?


Email, surely I'm not the only one who received it? 🤷‍♂️


----------



## muziksculp

Sovereign said:


> Email, surely I'm not the only one who received it? 🤷‍♂️


OK. Thanks , That's what I though, but Just wanted to confirm.


----------



## rlundv

I got an email with the text someone cited in a previous post, with a link to the Cinematic Studio-downloader. Download it, paste the original code and re-downloaded. Good speed and everything working great.


----------



## Bluemount Score

beyd770 said:


> I got an email with the text someone cited in a previous post, with a link to the Cinematic Studio-downloader. Download it, paste the original code and re-downloaded. Good speed and everything working great.


So I assume they are sending these over a larger timespan on purpose to not cause the next australian bush fire in the server rooms


----------



## NoamL

Excellent news about the tuning. Thank you Alex!


----------



## Nimrod7

Hey an update is out, any chance for a promo or they just do BF?


----------



## NoamL

They've done 25% on past Black Fridays, but there is alternately a 30% (iirc?) loyalty discount on all libraries after the 1st one you buy, which doesn't expire.


----------



## Nimrod7

NoamL said:


> They've done 25% on past Black Fridays, but there is alternately a 30% (iirc?) loyalty discount on all libraries after the 1st one you buy, which doesn't expire.


I read about the loyalty discount, and I own CSS, so I am qualifying. 
I am assuming their discounts don't stack right? So higher percentage wins == wasting my time waiting for a deal.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Nimrod7 said:


> I am assuming their discounts don't stack right?


You are right


----------



## ka00

Sovereign said:


> Email, surely I'm not the only one who received it? 🤷‍♂️


Officers of the Legato Police Force get early access.😉


----------



## Ian Dorsch

ka00 said:


> Officers of the Legato Police Force get early access.😉


If only that were true


----------



## muziksculp

ka00 said:


> Officers of the Legato Police Force get early access.😉


LOL.. Yes, one of the privileges of being a member of the VI-C Legato Police force.


----------



## ZeeCount

I didn't get an email, but I used their downloader to redownload the library and it has the new legato in it.


----------



## Rob Elliott

ZeeCount said:


> I didn't get an email, but I used their downloader to redownload the library and it has the new legato in it.


dang it - now I wish I kept the utility and download codes at purchase.


----------



## RonV

Rob Elliott said:


> dang it - now I wish I kept the utility and download codes at purchase.


Mac: https://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/ADM/Cinematic_Series_Installer_MAC.zip
PC: https://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/ADM/Cinematic_Series_Installer_PC.zip

The downloader utility is freely downloadable from CS and your code is simply your Native Access serial number for CSW which you can look up in NA. It seems to download fine (52 files in progress).


----------



## AEF

Soundbed said:


> Like AudioBro MSS :D


Yes, except without a wretched unusable sound and terrible shorts.


----------



## muziksculp

RonV said:


> Mac: https://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/ADM/Cinematic_Series_Installer_MAC.zip
> PC: https://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/ADM/Cinematic_Series_Installer_PC.zip
> 
> The downloader utility is freely downloadable from CS and your code is simply your Native Access serial number for CSW which you can look up in NA. It seems to download fine (52 files in progress).


So does this mean the CSW update is currently available for all CSW owners, and the updated library can be downloaded via the CS-Installer Application, We don't need to wait for update emails from Cinematic Studio Series ?


----------



## Getsumen

Wait what? Low Latency legato doesn't have a consistent delay still? (per earlier posts)
What exactly is it then? Lower delays for all the speeds?


----------



## muziksculp

ZeeCount said:


> I didn't get an email, but I used their downloader to redownload the library and it has the new legato in it.


So, that means we don't need an email to download the new updated version. 

I wonder what the wait for email was all about ?


----------



## Wedge

Getsumen said:


> Wait what? Low Latency legato doesn't have a consistent delay still? (per earlier posts)
> What exactly is it then? Lower delays for all the speeds?


It's a new legato option (the previous legato with 3 speeds still exists and the two legato options are switchable through the velocity of a key switch.) The lower latency legato has 2 speeds and if I remember correctly the delay is 70ms and 90ms.


----------



## Getsumen

Judd said:


> It's a new legato option (the previous legato with 3 speeds still exists and the two legato options are switchable through the velocity of a key switch.) The lower latency legato has 2 speeds and if I remember correctly the delay is 70ms and 90ms.


Oh interesting. Guess that makes sense. Probably just gonna end up slapping it at a constant 70 then worrying about configuring advanced legato afterward


----------



## RonV

muziksculp said:


> So does this mean the CSW update is currently available for all CSW owners, and the updated library can be downloaded via the CS-Installer Application, We don't need to wait for update emails from Cinematic Studio Series ?


Yes. I downloaded the latest version using the CS downloader and my Native Access s/n. The new version of CSW shows as v1.3 in Native Access now. Original version was v1.0.


----------



## muziksculp

RonV said:


> Yes. I downloaded the latest version using the CS downloader and my Native Access s/n. The new version of CSW shows as v1.3 in Native Access now. Original version was v1.0.


Great. Thanks for the helpful feedback.


----------



## constaneum

I'm downloading it at the moment. One of the downloaded files shows " dated 4th July 2021". so i believe that's the latest update. i wonder whether they'll include any ensemble patch in this update as promised previously.


----------



## emasters

RonV said:


> Yes. I downloaded the latest version using the CS downloader and my Native Access s/n. The new version of CSW shows as v1.3 in Native Access now. Original version was v1.0.


That's interesting - I downloaded the update without issue. The instrument files are date stamped for the updated version. Yet, in Native Access it shows v1.0.0, not 1.3.0. Though I know the version I just downloaded is the updated version. Wonder where Native Access get's the version number from? I did notice the size of the Samples folder in the updated version, is a few GB smaller versus the first release.


----------



## RonV

emasters said:


> That's interesting - I downloaded the update without issue. The instrument files are date stamped for the updated version. Yet, in Native Access it shows v1.0.0, not 1.3.0. Though I know the version I just downloaded is the updated version. Wonder where Native Access get's the version number from? I did notice the size of the Samples folder in the updated version, is a few GB smaller versus the first release.


Alex W just announced it in a new post and he called it v1.3 also.


----------



## Soundbed

…from the commercial thread…

@Jdiggity1 


1) having a consistent delay for all transitions is simply a convenience, to achieve maximum human-ness in transitions.
2) CSW last I checked had different predelay times versus strings. So to make things consistent they’d set a consistent predelay for each / all libraries. Having multiple predelay settings for different legato transitions … and having the values different across libraries … is not consistent, as I see it.

Not that I’m complaining. I do support the idea of a truly consistent (and large) predelay buffer that works for the whole library all the time though.


----------



## Robert_G

Why is the new package 8GB less.
It's 90.5 GB and the older one is 98.5 GB.

Thoughts?


----------



## Symfoniq

My download of CSW 1.3 is clocking in about 8 GB smaller, too, and with 121 items instead of 123. Hope it's right!


----------



## Dex

What is this “SPINOFF AFTER RELEASE” business? I don’t see anything about any spinoffs in the OP or in the last couple of pages.


----------



## Soundbed

Dex said:


> What is this “SPINOFF AFTER RELEASE” business? I don’t see anything about any spinoffs in the OP or in the last couple of pages.


I think it was because there was a million post thread before release. So someone spun off a new thread after release.


----------



## constaneum

Robert_G said:


> Why is the new package 8GB less.
> It's 90.5 GB and the older one is 98.5 GB.
> 
> Thoughts?


missing samples for 2 Flutes !!! Appears when i'm checking out the instruments one by one. Mix mic has no issue but when you switch to just using OH and etc, lots of audio drop outs due to missing files. next legato notes has no sound. hope for a fix instead of re-downloading the entire library again. i've timed. instead of 6-7 hours download...ended up 13 hours of downloading and installing process. gosh.


----------



## constaneum

Symfoniq said:


> My download of CSW 1.3 is clocking in about 8 GB smaller, too, and with 121 items instead of 123. Hope it's right!


nope it's not.


----------



## ansthenia

constaneum said:


> missing samples for 2 Flutes !!! Appears when i'm checking out the instruments one by one. Mix mic has no issue but when you switch to just using OH and etc, lots of audio drop outs due to missing files. next legato notes has no sound. hope for a fix instead of re-downloading the entire library again. i've timed. instead of 6-7 hours download...ended up 13 hours of downloading and installing process. gosh.


Wait, you're telling me that this update provides some samples that were missing from the original release, only to now have some different missing samples that we originally had?

That's pretty bad...


----------



## constaneum

ansthenia said:


> Wait, you're telling me that this update provides some samples that were missing from the original release, only to now have some different missing samples that we originally had?
> 
> That's pretty bad...


the original release has those files . They were missing in the V1.3 re-download . Some forum members just copied the missing filesfrom the V1 folder and understood it works. I decided not to copy the files over in case V1.3 may have some fine tuning of the sample tweaks like the Solo Flute. hmm....Kontakt would have prompted the missing files. There are about 3000+ files.


----------



## Sovereign

There are or should be no missing files. If you get the Kontakt message box saying otherwise, the solution is to remove the loaded instrument from Kontakt in your template and just reload it from the instrument list. Seems it keeps the older instrument files in memory if you had the instrument loaded before, which references files which are no longer needed. The 2 flutes v1.3 loads just fine on my system, nothing missing.


----------



## rlundv

Sovereign said:


> There are or should be no missing files. If you get the Kontakt message box saying otherwise, the solution is to remove the loaded instrument from Kontakt in your template and just reload it from the instrument list. Seems it keeps the older instrument files in memory if you had the instrument loaded before, which references files which are no longer needed. The 2 flutes v1.3 loads just fine on my system, nothing missing.


Same here - no missing files. Size is 90.5GB


----------



## constaneum

Sovereign said:


> There are or should be no missing files. If you get the Kontakt message box saying otherwise, the solution is to remove the loaded instrument from Kontakt in your template and just reload it from the instrument list. Seems it keeps the older instrument files in memory if you had the instrument loaded before, which references files which are no longer needed. The 2 flutes v1.3 loads just fine on my system, nothing missing.


I didn't even open my template. I open and load using native Kontakt


----------



## Sovereign

constaneum said:


> I didn't even open my template. I open and load using native Kontakt


My guess is you are loading the wrong, old instrument files for some reason. Assuming your download was not incomplete. Check the file dates perhaps?


----------



## constaneum

The new files are July 2021 though. Hmm


----------



## Jack Weaver

I downloaded the new update yesterday and it was 110GB. They sent me an email this morning asking me to download it again. It's now 97 GB. 

I don't think I understand what's going on. Do I have all the files?

.


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

I just finished downloading a new version. Old folder (1.0) takes 98.5 Gb, the new one - (1.3) 90.5 Gb.
Doesn't seem right at all.


----------



## toddkreuz

i'm always pretty anxious when downloading things like this, hoping all the files
come through, and i dont have to sit and trouble shoot. Its the bane of my existence.
I just want to PLAY!!


----------



## Robo Rivard

90.5 Gb here and everything is fine. Could Alex reassure us that things are as they should be? Different compression algorithm on the samples?


----------



## philthevoid

@Robo Rivard @ScrltPumpernickel @Jack Weaver @constaneum
@Robert_G @Symfoniq 

Hi guys! I was in contact with Alex this weekend for missing samples in the new update (the whole tone trills of the piccolo flute when using any mic other than the mix mic). He says he will release a fix for that but more importantly for a lot of you who are a bit insecure about the download size, here is a quote from him:

"Sizewise, yes 90.5GB is the right size, I was able to shave off a few GB without impacting on the quality of the library, and figured people would appreciate the extra space."

Hope that helps. 🙃


----------



## constaneum

I've also taken a video of my CSW folder with the updated files as well as Kontakt end when opening up all other instruments which no issue but only 2 Flutes patch having the issue as per Alex's request for troubleshooting. Alex is very helpful. Kudos to the fast support response.

When i check my Native Access, it's showing V1.0 instead of V1.3. It's suppose to be a very simple removal of old CSW libraries from the hard drive and then replace it with the new V1.3 download right ? Anything need to do at Kontakt / Native Access end ?


----------



## IdealSequenceG

Cinematic Studio Woodwinds - 2 Flutes, Solo Flute Test




View attachment CSWFlutesTest.mp3


----------



## constaneum

just an update. my issues with 2 Flute fixed. Apparently, my 90GB download left out the Separate Mic 7 file. after patched in based on what's given by Alex, the library size in total is 92GB+


----------



## constaneum

IdealSequenceG said:


> Cinematic Studio Woodwinds - 2 Flutes, Solo Flute Test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment CSWFlutesTest.mp3



sounds like using either purely close mic or close might with a bit of OH ?


----------



## Scamper

Finally managed to download the update as well.
It's great how playable the low latency mode is and often this might be all you need. Still, I think there's a noticeable difference to the expressive legatos, which shows that the delays are worth it for the extra details.
As others have said though, I think a way to get a more uniform latency, would be still easier to use - maybe similar to the sample start control in other libraries.

For the future, I'd still like to see an ensemble patch in CSW.
But now, I'm very curious about the CSS updates and it's new legato.



constaneum said:


> When i check my Native Access, it's showing V1.0 instead of V1.3. It's suppose to be a very simple removal of old CSW libraries from the hard drive and then replace it with the new V1.3 download right ? Anything need to do at Kontakt / Native Access end ?


Right, I think it's just about replacing the folders.
About Native Access, I'd guess, that since the version management and download doesn't happen through it, it just registered your Serial and won't check for any versions and will stay at 1.0.0 forever. Looks like this is the case with about every library, that isn't handeled by Native Access.


----------



## manuhz

No, no ensemble patch this time either. Still waiting for it since release


----------



## IdealSequenceG

constaneum said:


> sounds like using either purely close mic or close might with a bit of OH ?


Yep, it's a pure close mic sound add a reverb.


----------



## filipjonathan

constaneum said:


> I've also taken a video of my CSW folder with the updated files as well as Kontakt end when opening up all other instruments which no issue but only 2 Flutes patch having the issue as per Alex's request for troubleshooting. Alex is very helpful. Kudos to the fast support response.
> 
> When i check my Native Access, it's showing V1.0 instead of V1.3. It's suppose to be a very simple removal of old CSW libraries from the hard drive and then replace it with the new V1.3 download right ? Anything need to do at Kontakt / Native Access end ?


Yeah, I just deleted the old CSW folder and replaced it with the new one. Native Access also says 1.0 for me. I think we need to 'uninstall' it from NA and then reinstall it. But at the same time, it IS the new version so it doesn't really matter what NA says.


----------



## constaneum

IdealSequenceG said:


> Yep, it's a pure close mic sound add a reverb.


Its close mic sounds beautiful isn't it? Hehe


----------



## GingerMaestro

manuhz said:


> No, no ensemble patch this time either. Still waiting for it since release


I never quite understood the uses of an ensemble patch for woodwind as all the instruments have such a distinctive tone. I guess it's useful for sketching and maybe some short note chords. It makes sense for strings and brass as the section has a more unified sound. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to make up an ensemble patch with some splits that would work for you. I think @Cory Pelizzari has done this a bit in the past.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

I haven't downloaded CSW 1.3 yet, I can wait a few more days to make sure Alex has fixed all content of the library. 

So, is the current 1.3 download version all good, no issues, or should I wait a few more days ? 

Thanks.


----------



## Tom Ferguson

Generally the update seems really good. Not sure if this was mentioned earlier, but I still have a problem with Meas. Rep not working unless staccato is enabled as well:






Also trills doesn't work properly without flutter enabled (the trills stop being performed with two notes a semi or whole-tone away from each other and instead only semitone trills can be performed with just single notes):





Far from big issues though ofc.

(PS. is the solo picc. meant to only have semitone trills as I can't get the WT trills to work if not)


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

Piccolo w/s trills don't work for me with any mics but "Mix" (ver. 1.3).


----------



## Tom Ferguson

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> Piccolo w/s trills don't work for me with any mics but "Mix" (ver. 1.3).


Ah yes, it works like the others (need to enable flutter for WT trills) with mix mic. Cheers


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

Tom Ferguson said:


> Ah yes, it works like the others (need to enable flutter for WT trills) with mix mic. Cheers


I have flutter enabled (trills selected) - doesn't work.
If I switch to flutter, it plays two flutter notes w/s apart.

EDIT: I'm testing with other mics than "Mix"


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

Those who updated to CSW 1.3 and have issues with some of the instruments, are you reporting these issues to Alex W. ?


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

Not yet?

EDIT: I reported the bug with the w/s trills.


----------



## Tom Ferguson

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> I have flutter enabled (trills selected) - doesn't work.
> If I switch to flutter, it plays two flutter notes w/s apart.


No I meant you have to have it enabled in the background (as opposed to grayed out and purged, like I showed in the 2nd pic of my original post) for the trills to work properly.


----------



## muziksculp

Tom Ferguson said:


> No I meant you have to have it enabled in the background (as opposed to grayed out and purged, like I showed in the 2nd pic of my original post) for the trills to work properly.


That looks like a bug, please report it to Alex W.


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

Tom Ferguson said:


> No I meant you have to have it enabled in the background (as opposed to grayed out and purged, like I showed in the 2nd pic of my original post) for the trills to work properly.


Funny thing, w/s trills do indeed work (outside of "Mix") with articulations set up, like you have it in your picture (just trills+flutter), but it doesn't work if all articulations are enabled (trills selected).


----------



## Tom Ferguson

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> Funny thing, w/s trills do indeed work (outside of "Mix") with articulations set up, like you have it in your picture (just trills+flutter), but it doesn't work if all articulations are enabled (trills selected).



Honestly I'm kind of amazed that these things still haven't been noticed or fixed in all this time. I noticed these issues within the first few mins of using CSW. Did they really have no-one do the most basic of tests to make sure that the instruments were working right with single articulation per instance users or multi-out mic users in all this time?


----------



## Tom Ferguson

muziksculp said:


> That looks like a bug, please report it to Alex W.


Well I've send support a message linking them to my comments. Hopefully they'll sort them pronto!


----------



## Symfoniq

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I haven't downloaded CSW 1.3 yet, I can wait a few more days to make sure Alex has fixed all content of the library.
> 
> So, is the current 1.3 download version all good, no issues, or should I wait a few more days ?
> 
> Thanks.


Seems fine to me, though I did have to forcibly relocate the path to CSW in Native Access for it to show up as version 1.3 in Kontakt.


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

Symfoniq said:


> Seems fine to me, though I did have to forcibly relocate the path to CSW in Native Access for it to show up as version 1.3 in Kontakt.


How did you do it? I wasn't able to figure this out.

EDIT: I had to rename the CSW folder twice.


----------



## Symfoniq

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> How did you do it? I wasn't able to figure this out.
> 
> EDIT: I had to rename the CSW folder twice.


Yep, that's the way I did it.


----------



## axb312

What are legato trills and how do you use them?


----------



## manuhz

GingerMaestro said:


> I never quite understood the uses of an ensemble patch for woodwind as all the instruments have such a distinctive tone. I guess it's useful for sketching and maybe some short note chords. It makes sense for strings and brass as the section has a more unified sound. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to make up an ensemble patch with some splits that would work for you. I think @Cory Pelizzari has done this a bit in the past.


Sorry, I disagree with these arguments.

The Albions, MArks and Inspire Woodwind ensemble patches are extremely well balanced and very usefull... for thoose who make use of them! I´m expecting something similar from CSW


----------



## Toecutter

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> Piccolo w/s trills don't work for me with any mics but "Mix" (ver. 1.3).


yep whole tone trills do not work with any mics but Mix. Did you receive an answer?

edit with answer https://vi-control.net/community/th...nds-spinoff-after-release.104531/post-4867956


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> How did you do it? I wasn't able to figure this out.


I did. They promised to fix it ASAP.


----------



## muziksculp

OK. Looks like CSW 1.3 still got some bugs they need to fix.

So I will wait for them to fix them. Then download.

Oh.. why do you have to rename the folder so it shows up as CSW ver. 1.3 in Native Access ? and what do you rename it ? i.e. Cinematic Studio Woodwinds v 1.3 ?

Thanks.


----------



## RonV

muziksculp said:


> OK. Looks like CSW 1.3 still got some bugs they need to fix.
> 
> So I will wait for them to fix them. Then download.
> 
> Oh.. why do you have to rename the folder so it shows up as CSW ver. 1.3 in Native Access ? and what do you rename it ? i.e. Cinematic Studio Woodwinds v 1.3 ?
> 
> Thanks.


You only have to rename the folder so that Native Access "loses track" of the location. Rename folder - Open Native Access - It will say REPAIR next to the library. Close NA, then name the folder back to the original name. Then open NA and REPAIR by telling it where the folder is located. then it will "rediscover" the library with the current version number.


----------



## muziksculp

RonV said:


> You only have to rename the folder so that Native Access "loses track" of the location. Rename folder - Open Native Access - It will say REPAIR next to the library. Close NA, then name the folder back to the original name. Then open NA and REPAIR by telling it where the folder is located. then it will "rediscover" the library with the current version number.


Oh.. OK. I get it. 

Thank You so much.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

A few more minor comments.
There are no release samples on all microphones except Mix for the following instruments.
Solo Alto Flute-Marcato at a high dynamic range(Forte).
2 Clarinets-Sustain (Legato) the middle dynamic range.
----
2 Bassoons-Sustain (Legato) something is wrong with Vibrato on/off on the forte (it works on Mix)
And as mentioned earlier, Solo Piccolo-Thrills does not work the whole tone of the trill as well on all microphones except Mix.


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

Please, report this to the developer, if you didn't do it already.


----------



## Toecutter

Can confirm @Vladimir Bulaev bug report (I can't quote you for some reason) thanks for doing this. I didn't have time to check thoroughly the update yet, appreciate the heads up and will report.


----------



## SonicBunny

Let's just hope these issues get resolved soon. How they missed the missing samples is a mystery to me.


----------



## Soundbed

I haven't downloaded yet ... are we waiting for another round of fixes or is it good to start downloading today?


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

Personally, I'd wait.


----------



## muziksculp

Soundbed said:


> I haven't downloaded yet ... are we waiting for another round of fixes or is it good to start downloading today?


I decided to not download CSW 1.3 until all the reported bugs are fixed. Not sure how long it will take them to issue the next update version with the fixes.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

It sounds like the update fixed a lot of things that people had issues with. Is anyone planning on releasing a video of how the Xfades and Tuning issues etc compare before and after, as well as any other feature that has been improved?

Hopefully Cinematic Studio are in the process of doing one themselves.


----------



## gohrev

muziksculp said:


> I decided to not download CSW 1.3 until all the reported bugs are fixed. Not sure how long it will take them to issue the next update version with the fixes.


Same.


----------



## muziksculp

Any feedback regarding the status of CSW ver 1.3 update would be appreciated. 

Are we expected to get another update soon that fixes the issues being reported ? 

Thanks.


----------



## Robert_G

muziksculp said:


> Any feedback regarding the status of CSW ver 1.3 update would be appreciated.
> 
> Are we expected to get another update soon that fixes the issues being reported ?
> 
> Thanks.


it was 5 months for the first fix...so start looking around Christmas for the next one.


----------



## Rob Elliott

Honestly my suggestion would be to grab THIS update as released. It fixes a TON of things - then make the 'incremental' update later whenever that is released. You should get a LOT of good use out of it until then. IMHO, well worth any hassle to 'update' twice.


----------



## Bluemount Score

muziksculp said:


> I decided to not download CSW 1.3 until all the reported bugs are fixed. Not sure how long it will take them to issue the next update version with the fixes.


You could keep a back-up of 1.0 in case 1.3 breaks anything for you


----------



## muziksculp

Rob Elliott said:


> Honestly my suggestion would be to grab THIS update as released. It fixes a TON of things - then make the 'incremental' update later whenever that is released. You should get a LOT of good use out of it until then. IMHO, well worth any hassle to 'update' twice.


Thanks.  

That's exactly what I wanted to know.


----------



## Soundbed

Rob Elliott said:


> Honestly my suggestion would be to grab THIS update as released. It fixes a TON of things - then make the 'incremental' update later whenever that is released. You should get a LOT of good use out of it until then. IMHO, well worth any hassle to 'update' twice.


If you insist.


----------



## muziksculp

Soundbed said:


> If you insist.


So, did you test 1.3 yet ? is it a good improvement over 1.0 ? 

I'm downloading it now. 

Thanks.


----------



## constaneum

muziksculp said:


> So, did you test 1.3 yet ? is it a good improvement over 1.0 ?
> 
> I'm downloading it now.
> 
> Thanks.


1.3 improves lots of things. tunings, better legato, better marcato patches (in terms of dynamic transition and less wonky sounding, especially the clarinet)


----------



## muziksculp

OK. Done ! 

Will test it tomorrow.


----------



## gohrev

well alright, if you guys insist…


----------



## ethormusic

I downloaded the 1.3 update last night and tried out the mix position of some of the woodwinds. Legato is definitely improved. 
I would like to see more tightness with the Marcato patch for the clarinets. Right now when I move the mod wheel all the way up on Marcato w/ overlay the clarinet still plays at fff for no good reason. Also there is still way too much of a release sound with the Marcato patch. Being a clarinet player myself, I'm incredibly picky when it comes to this sort of thing especially when the Flute section has a significantly 'tighter' way of controlling Marcato.

With the flutes, going up and down on CC1 is much smoother. Not so much of a dynamics transition and more of an articulation transition. Lower CC1 values trigger short notes while moving CC1 up triggers more of a tongue legato, which I find incredibly playable. The oboes also do a pretty good job at this.


----------



## Rob Elliott

ethormusic said:


> I downloaded the 1.3 update last night and tried out the mix position of some of the woodwinds. Legato is definitely improved.
> I would like to see more tightness with the Marcato patch for the clarinets. Right now when I move the mod wheel all the way up on Marcato w/ overlay the clarinet still plays at fff for no good reason. Also there is still way too much of a release sound with the Marcato patch. Being a clarinet player myself, I'm incredibly picky when it comes to this sort of thing especially when the Flute section has a significantly 'tighter' way of controlling Marcato.
> 
> With the flutes, going up and down on CC1 is much smoother. Not so much of a dynamics transition and more of an articulation transition. Lower CC1 values trigger short notes while moving CC1 up triggers more of a tongue legato, which I find incredibly playable. The oboes also do a pretty good job at this.


nice notes - please submit to them directly.


----------



## muziksculp

Played around with CSW 1.3 today, and I'm very satisfied, and happy with the improvements it offers.

Especially the Low-Latency Legato mode, it made playing a bit faster legato phrases possible, I tried the Expressive legato to play a bit faster phrases, well.. forget it. That didn't go well. 

All of the instruments sound very good to my ears. The only one that could have a bit more character, that I found a bit dull is the English Horn. It's still pretty good, but lacks something in its timbral characteristic, maybe I'm just being too picky. Love the Contra Bassoon, and Bassoon. The Flute, and Piccolo. are wonderful, and so is the Alto Flute. The playability using the Marcato with the overlay is very rewarding, and it is also very responsive to the key-velocity, I find that sometimes I have to hit the keys quite hard to trigger the ff-fff range.

Overall, very glad that I upgraded CSW to ver 1.3 , Now I'm really looking forward to see the Low-Latency Legato option in the rest of the Cinematic Studio libraries, especially the Strings.


----------



## constaneum

muziksculp said:


> Played around with CSW 1.3 today, and I'm very satisfied, and happy with the improvements it offers.
> 
> Especially the Low-Latency Legato mode, it made playing a bit faster legato phrases possible, I tried the Expressive legato to play a bit faster phrases, well.. forget it. That didn't go well.
> 
> All of the instruments sound very good to my ears. The only one that could have a bit more character, that I found a bit dull is the English Horn. It's still pretty good, but lacks something in its timbral characteristic, maybe I'm just being too picky. Love the Contra Bassoon, and Bassoon. The Flute, and Piccolo. are wonderful, and so is the Alto Flute. The playability using the Marcato with the overlay is very rewarding, and it is also very responsive to the key-velocity, I find that sometimes I have to hit the keys quite hard to trigger the ff-fff range.
> 
> Overall, very glad that I upgraded CSW to ver 1.3 , Now I'm really looking forward to see the Low-Latency Legato option in the rest of the Cinematic Studio libraries, especially the Strings.


Expressive Legato is basically the V1.0 legato. yea. looking forward to the low latency legato options for the strings.


----------



## SwordComposer

Are there still issues and kinks that need to be worked out with this update or should we go ahead and download it?


----------



## Soundbed

SwordComposer said:


> Are there still issues and kinks that need to be worked out with this update or should we go ahead and download it?


There are minor issues listed in the previous 5 or so pages of this thread but the net takeaway indicates that the benefits probably far outweigh the “costs” of these minor issues.

If you can keep both versions (if you have enough disk space) you might need to add some files from the previous version to the newest update. Because apparently they are missing from it.

I’m on mobile so not in a good position to collect all the minor issues reported. I thought I saw it somewhere in a single post but cannot find it now.


----------



## muziksculp

SwordComposer said:


> Are there still issues and kinks that need to be worked out with this update or should we go ahead and download it?


I updated to 1.3, and I'm very happy with what it offers. I highly recommend going forward with the 1.3 update. The Low-Latency Legato mode alone is worth it, but there are various other improvements.


----------



## Wedge

Soundbed said:


> There are minor issues listed in the previous 5 or so pages of this thread but the net takeaway indicates that the benefits probably far outweigh the “costs” of these minor issues.
> 
> If you can keep both versions (if you have enough disk space) you might need to add some files from the previous version to the newest update. Because apparently they are missing from it.
> 
> I’m on mobile so not in a good position to collect all the minor issues reported. I thought I saw it somewhere in a single post but cannot find it now.


Alex confirmed that no files are missing. It's 5 or so gig smaller, I don't remember. But that's why it's an entire library download as opposed to a small update. If you're in the middle of a project, Kontakt will have missing samples for a couple instruments. But if you start a fresh instance of the patch then nothing is missing, at least from my my experience.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

do you guys leave spiccato overlay on when playing runs?


----------



## Tremendouz

NeonMediaKJT said:


> do you guys leave spiccato overlay on when playing runs?


I do but I use low enough velocity that the overlay is only barely hearable. Also with the flute I'm often actually just using the normal fast legato (this is my experience pre-update)


----------



## SwordComposer

Soundbed said:


> There are minor issues listed in the previous 5 or so pages of this thread but the net takeaway indicates that the benefits probably far outweigh the “costs” of these minor issues.
> 
> If you can keep both versions (if you have enough disk space) you might need to add some files from the previous version to the newest update. Because apparently they are missing from it.
> 
> I’m on mobile so not in a good position to collect all the minor issues reported. I thought I saw it somewhere in a single post but cannot find it now.





muziksculp said:


> I updated to 1.3, and I'm very happy with what it offers. I highly recommend going forward with the 1.3 update. The Low-Latency Legato mode alone is worth it, but there are various other improvements.


Thanks, I'll go ahead and download the update then. I'm going to try to keep the old CSW for compatibility with current projects though.


----------



## Frogs Can Talk

Hi there,

A quick question, not related to the latest update!

Have you experienced any problem using their payment platform FastSpring?

Today, I was finally ready to pull the trigger and join the Cinematic Studio club... Tried a couple of times to buy CSW + CSS, but at the end of the payment, instead of being redirected to my bank so I can validate the purchase (like it always does), I got a message saying the order was cancelled.

Everything is in order on my side, I triple-checked all usual suspects (amount of money on the account, spending limit, etc.).

A bit of a turn-off, I must admit!


----------



## Soundbed

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> Piccolo w/s trills don't work for me with any mics but "Mix" (ver. 1.3).





ScrltPumpernickel said:


> Funny thing, w/s trills do indeed work (outside of "Mix") with articulations set up, like you have it in your picture (just trills+flutter), but it doesn't work if all articulations are enabled (trills selected).





philthevoid said:


> @Robo Rivard @ScrltPumpernickel @Jack Weaver @constaneum
> @Robert_G @Symfoniq
> 
> Hi guys! I was in contact with Alex this weekend for missing samples in the new update (the whole tone trills of the piccolo flute when using any mic other than the mix mic). He says he will release a fix for that but more importantly for a lot of you who are a bit insecure about the download size, here is a quote from him:
> 
> "Sizewise, yes 90.5GB is the right size, I was able to shave off a few GB without impacting on the quality of the library, and figured people would appreciate the extra space."
> 
> Hope that helps. 🙃





constaneum said:


> missing samples for 2 Flutes !!! Appears when i'm checking out the instruments one by one. Mix mic has no issue but when you switch to just using OH and etc, lots of audio drop outs due to missing files. next legato notes has no sound. hope for a fix instead of re-downloading the entire library again. i've timed. instead of 6-7 hours download...ended up 13 hours of downloading and installing process. gosh.





constaneum said:


> just an update. my issues with 2 Flute fixed. Apparently, my 90GB download left out the Separate Mic 7 file. after patched in based on what's given by Alex, the library size in total is 92GB+





Tom Ferguson said:


> Also trills doesn't work properly without flutter enabled (the trills stop being performed with two notes a semi or whole-tone away from each other and instead only semitone trills can be performed with just single notes):





Tom Ferguson said:


> (PS. is the solo picc. meant to only have semitone trills as I can't get the WT trills to work if not)





Tom Ferguson said:


> I still have a problem with Meas. Rep not working unless staccato is enabled as well:





Vladimir Bulaev said:


> A few more minor comments.
> There are no release samples on all microphones except Mix for the following instruments.
> Solo Alto Flute-Marcato at a high dynamic range(Forte).
> 2 Clarinets-Sustain (Legato) the middle dynamic range.
> ----
> 2 Bassoons-Sustain (Legato) something is wrong with Vibrato on/off on the forte (it works on Mix)
> And as mentioned earlier, Solo Piccolo-Thrills does not work the whole tone of the trill as well on all microphones except Mix.





Toecutter said:


> Can confirm @Vladimir Bulaev bug report





Judd said:


> if you start a fresh instance of the patch then nothing is missing, at least from my my experience


All in all, a little confusing, but a couple minor niggles, i guess.


----------



## gohrev

Playing solo flute with legato (both "Low Latency" and "Expressive") is a bit buggy, with some samples only loading seconds after I pressed a key. This is particularly evident when playing a run.


----------



## Soundbed

gohrev said:


> Playing solo flute with legato (both "Low Latency" and "Expressive") is a bit buggy, with some samples only loading seconds after I pressed a key. This is particularly evident when playing a run.


That’s ‘usually’ a drive speed / buss speed issue in Kontakt … I assume you’ve ruled that out?


----------



## philthevoid

Frogs Can Talk said:


> Hi there,
> 
> A quick question, not related to the latest update!
> 
> Have you experienced any problem using their payment platform FastSpring?
> 
> Today, I was finally ready to pull the trigger and join the Cinematic Studio club... Tried a couple of times to buy CSW + CSS, but at the end of the payment, instead of being redirected to my bank so I can validate the purchase (like it always does), I got a message saying the order was cancelled.
> 
> Everything is in order on my side, I triple-checked all usual suspects (amount of money on the account, spending limit, etc.).
> 
> A bit of a turn-off, I must admit!


Never had an issue but I would contact the CSS support. They're really quick to answer and very helpful.
And maybe check with your bank. They can sometimes tell what's happened with a transaction. That could give you a clue.


----------



## gohrev

Soundbed said:


> That’s ‘usually’ a drive speed / buss speed issue in Kontakt … I assume you’ve ruled that out?


Thank you for your comment! To be honest, I wouldn't know how to go about checking that


----------



## Soundbed

gohrev said:


> Thank you for your comment! To be honest, I wouldn't know how to go about checking that


On Mac: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/blackmagic-disk-speed-test/id425264550


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I just got CSW. I'm experiencing a lot of weirdness. 

1) sometimes the legato just decides to not trigger for some notes during a phrase in the solo bassoon.
2) I'm getting occasional notes just cutting out.
3) I'm also not sure if I'm hearing a difference between the legato transitions. Are they very similar for everyone else?
I'm wondering if my install is a bit of a dud...


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

gohrev said:


> Playing solo flute with legato (both "Low Latency" and "Expressive") is a bit buggy, with some samples only loading seconds after I pressed a key. This is particularly evident when playing a run.


i am experiencing this


----------



## gohrev

NeonMediaKJT said:


> i am experiencing this


Thank you, glad I'm not the only one. I asked Alex if I can downgrade to v1 for the time being


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

gohrev said:


> Thank you, glad I'm not the only one. I asked Alex if I can downgrade to v1 for the time being


hmmm i wonder if I could do that for now having only just purchased the library 😅


----------



## Wedge

Soundbed said:


> Al in all, a little confusing, but a couple minor niggles, i guess.


If I'm the odd one out. I'm probably wrong.


----------



## Frogs Can Talk

philthevoid said:


> Never had an issue but I would contact the CSS support. They're really quick to answer and very helpful.
> And maybe check with your bank. They can sometimes tell what's happened with a transaction. That could give you a clue.


Hey, thanks for your reply.

I wrote one message after each purchase attempt (there's a special form you can fill), but got no answer. They're probably gone for the week-end.

Since there was no transaction, I doubt my bank will be able to tell me anything. Only FastSpring could IMO.

Unfortunately, since Cinematic Studio is outsourcing the payment, I'm not sure there's anything they can do...


----------



## gohrev

NeonMediaKJT said:


> hmmm i wonder if I could do that for now having only just purchased the library 😅


I contacted Alex, sent him a video of what transpires (I got "lucky", in the sense that the third note of my phrase suffered from a 2-second delay, it's all very random..) -- let's see if he can solve this riddle.

Downgrading back to v1 wasn't an option according to Alex.
I'll keep you posted


----------



## OttoPilot33

As an exercise to test the upgrade, I ported the woodwind section of these two pieces to CSW v1.3 and it worked smoothly, without any problem, there was no need to tweak anything, except that I felt compelled to increase the volume of the whole woodwind section by 1 dB in the mix, but I'm not really sure it was necessary at all.
I noticed that the tone was smoother, with less strident oboes and clarinets at f and above.


----------



## Casiquire

Sounds like there will be another CSW update, which means it'll be longer for the CSS update lol aww


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Sounds like there will be another CSW update, which means it'll be longer for the CSS update lol aww


Maybe, but I haven't noticed anything odd, or broken in CSW 1.3, so I wonder what an update will be fixing, or improving ? 

CSS update was going to take more time regardless of CSW's update status, Alex W. mentioned that it will have some more goodies in the update, not sure what they are, but surely a Low-Latency Legato Mode will be in the upcoming CSS update. When will it be released is the million $ question, my guess not before September.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Maybe, but I haven't noticed anything odd, or broken in CSW 1.3, so I wonder what an update will be fixing, or improving ?
> 
> CSS update was going to take more time regardless of CSW's update status, Alex W. mentioned that it will have some more goodies in the update, not sure what they are, but surely a Low-Latency Legato Mode will be in the upcoming CSS update. When will it be released is the million $ question, my guess not before September.


Just scroll up, seems like there are a bunch of issues. Enough that people are redownloading the old version and sending support emails trying to roll it back


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Just scroll up, seems like there are a bunch of issues. Enough that people are redownloading the old version and sending support emails trying to roll it back


I saw some of these bug reports, I don't plan to roll back to the 1.0 version, very happy with 1.3, I will see if I can duplicate some of the issues reported on this thread. But from my limited experience with 1.3, I like it better than the previous version. I will post some feedback once I have some time to test 1.3 with the reported issues.


----------



## muziksculp

OK.

Yes, the Piccolo Semi-Tone Trills work on all the mics for me, but they are also quite low in volume. I guess they might be missing their release samples.

The Piccolo Whole-Tone Trills only work with the mix mic, but not with the other mic options, so this is surely a broken functionality in ver. 1.3

I will check the other reported issues and post again here.

Measured Reps works fine, without the need to enable Staccato, which someone reported they need to do to make it work. It works just as it should, no issues, just select meas. Reps and play, and sync. to DAW tempo works fine as well.

I'm also confirming these issues (reported earlier on this thread):

There are no release samples on all microphones except Mix for the following instruments.

Solo Alto Flute-Marcato at a high dynamic range(Forte).
2 Clarinets-Sustain (Legato) the middle dynamic range.

I guess Alex W. will have to work on a fix for these issues, I wonder how they slipped through his QA process/testing. Hopefully he will issue another CSW Update fix soon. I will also email him to get some direct feedback on these issues, and when he expects to have the next CSW Update completed.

*UPDATE:* I contacted their support asking when we can expect the next CSW update that fixes the issues in ver. 1.3 , I will post any info. once I get some feedback on the next update.


----------



## Frogs Can Talk

Hi,

A quick update about my failed purchase attempt. For the record, it was not my bank, but VISA blocking the transaction. Looks like I'll have to use Paypal on this website. That sucks, but not the end of the world.

So I bought CSW and CSS, finally! Any tips or recommandations for a smooth start with these libraries? 

Do you guys use this control panel, and should I use it right from the start? Looks interesting to handle the various delays, but maybe I should experience them before trying to fix anything?


----------



## Casiquire

Frogs Can Talk said:


> Hi,
> 
> A quick update about my failed purchase attempt. For the record, it was not my bank, but VISA blocking the transaction. Looks like I'll have to use Paypal on this website. That sucks, but not the end of the world.
> 
> So I bought CSW and CSS, finally! Any tips or recommandations for a smooth start with these libraries?
> 
> Do you guys use this control panel, and should I use it right from the start? Looks interesting to handle the various delays, but maybe I should experience them before trying to fix anything?


The standard and advanced legatos aren't what I'd call "playable" at all, so start with the marcato or the "classic" patches to hone in on your sound and get used to the sound of the library. Otherwise it's a very straightforward product.

That control panel looks extremely useful but i can't get it to work properly here, so your mileage may vary. On my end it just doesn't do for me what it seems to do for everyone else. It's just never a consistent 330ms delay, no matter what i do. In any event the control panel is mainly intended for consistent playback and recording. 330ms is way too much delay for just playing, so maybe start to explore the panel when you start to come up against the library's limitations and inconsistencies


----------



## Frogs Can Talk

Casiquire said:


> The standard and advanced legatos aren't what I'd call "playable" at all, so start with the marcato or the "classic" patches to hone in on your sound and get used to the sound of the library. Otherwise it's a very straightforward product.
> 
> That control panel looks extremely useful but i can't get it to work properly here, so your mileage may vary. On my end it just doesn't do for me what it seems to do for everyone else. It's just never a consistent 330ms delay, no matter what i do. In any event the control panel is mainly intended for consistent playback and recording. 330ms is way too much delay for just playing, so maybe start to explore the panel when you start to come up against the library's limitations and inconsistencies


Hey, thanks for the advice! 

The marcato does seem to be an excellent start to get my bearings. And you're right, 330ms would kill the pleasure to discover these instruments by playing them. For some reason, it did not cross my mind...


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

I emailed Alex W. , asking about when we can expect the next CSW update that fixes the issues with ver 1.3, he replied that he is aware of all the issues reported, and most of the fixes are easy to do, except one, but he is working very hard to release the next CSW soon. 

I'm not sure what soon means, but I'm hoping it would mean during August. or early Sept.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I emailed Alex W. , asking about when we can expect the next CSW update that fixes the issues with ver 1.3, he replied that he is aware of all the issues reported, and most of the fixes are easy to do, except one, but he is working very hard to release the next CSW soon.
> 
> I'm not sure what soon means, but I'm hoping it would mean during August. or early Sept.


I don't think i just speak for myself when i say thanks for keeping us updated on things!


----------



## Bluemount Score

muziksculp said:


> I'm not sure what soon means


back to that...


----------



## Frogs Can Talk

Hi,

I'm having an issue with CSW that is probably on my end, but I can't find the culprit.

On sustain patches with legato mode, when played "live", the medium speed of expressive mode and the fast speed of low latency don't work properly. Every few notes, it's like the note is buffered and suddenly played along with the one that follows.

What drives me crazy is that I don't have the problem on playback. If I write down simple scales going up for all 3 legato speeds (expressive mode, using velocities 40, 80 and 120), the instrument behave as intended. Now if I play the same thing on the keyboard, I have the glitches I mentioned, but only on the medium speed (slow and fast work fine) in expressive mode, and fast speed in low latency mode.

The problem seems to happen on all instruments. The instruments are fully loaded (samples have not been purged). I tried to purge them but the glitch is still there, so it doesn't seem to be sample related.

I'm using Cubase Pro 11.0.30 and Kontakt 6.6.0.

Any idea what I'm doing wrong?


----------



## gohrev

Frogs Can Talk said:


> I'm having an issue with CSW that is probably on my end, but I can't find the culprit.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Any idea what I'm doing wrong?


No, but this sounds similar to the issue I've been experiencing: _(...) some samples only loading seconds after I pressed a key._


----------



## Frogs Can Talk

gohrev said:


> No, but this sounds similar to the issue I've been experiencing: _(...) some samples only loading seconds after I pressed a key._


I ran additional tests, and I could not reproduce the issue in Kontakt standalone. Unfortunately (for me), the issue is very consistent and easy to reproduce when I'm in Cubase (as described in my previous message).


----------



## filipjonathan

I was just playing the solo clarinet patch, marcato, mix mic only, and I can confirm that some samples take a second to load. Cubase 11, Mojave.


----------



## gohrev

filipjonathan said:


> I was just playing the solo clarinet patch, marcato, mix mic only, and I can confirm that some samples take a second to load. Cubase 11, Mojave.


Do me a favour and report it to the CS team


----------



## filipjonathan

gohrev said:


> Do me a favour and report it to the CS team


Just did it.


----------



## Tremendouz

Clarinet releases are still louder than the note itself sometimes.


----------



## Frogs Can Talk

Edit: the issue is probably in my project, so I moved the post to the tech support section : https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cubase-kontakt-hanging-notes.112722/


----------



## ricoderks

Frogs Can Talk said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm having an issue with CSW that is probably on my end, but I can't find the culprit.
> 
> On sustain patches with legato mode, when played "live", the medium speed of expressive mode and the fast speed of low latency don't work properly. Every few notes, it's like the note is buffered and suddenly played along with the one that follows.
> 
> What drives me crazy is that I don't have the problem on playback. If I write down simple scales going up for all 3 legato speeds (expressive mode, using velocities 40, 80 and 120), the instrument behave as intended. Now if I play the same thing on the keyboard, I have the glitches I mentioned, but only on the medium speed (slow and fast work fine) in expressive mode, and fast speed in low latency mode.
> 
> The problem seems to happen on all instruments. The instruments are fully loaded (samples have not been purged). I tried to purge them but the glitch is still there, so it doesn't seem to be sample related.
> 
> I'm using Cubase Pro 11.0.30 and Kontakt 6.6.0.
> 
> Any idea what I'm doing wrong?


Maybe, just in case, batch resave the library.
See what happens from there.

R


----------



## Frogs Can Talk

Hey, thanks for the reply!

Yup, already done that. I have a couple of 8Dio libraries, so I know how important batch resaving can be!


----------



## kupo15

Wedge said:


> Alex confirmed that no files are missing. It's 5 or so gig smaller, I don't remember. But that's why it's an entire library download as opposed to a small update. If you're in the middle of a project, Kontakt will have missing samples for a couple instruments. But if you start a fresh instance of the patch then nothing is missing, at least from my my experience.


Im having this issue right now. I downloaded the update when it came out but haven't touched my daw since and am now trying to compose again. I'm getting a lot of missing WW files now with kontakt and when I try to locate the folder for that dialogue, it just loads and takes forever. I waited at least 5 mins before I decided to cancel it. This is also on a new project as well as my old ones. This issue mainly happens in reaper as the standalone kontakt player seems to be okay

Anyone have this issue or know what I can do to fix this? thanks

EDIT: Got it to work on a new project but the pop up still exists with existing projects


----------



## philthevoid

kupo15 said:


> Im having this issue right now. I downloaded the update when it came out but haven't touched my daw since and am now trying to compose again. I'm getting a lot of missing WW files now with kontakt and when I try to locate the folder for that dialogue, it just loads and takes forever. I waited at least 5 mins before I decided to cancel it. This is also on a new project as well as my old ones. This issue mainly happens in reaper as the standalone kontakt player seems to be okay
> 
> Anyone have this issue or know what I can do to fix this? thanks
> 
> EDIT: Got it to work on a new project but the pop up still exists with existing projects


Did you follow this tip from the update email?

"[...] Kontakt patches are saved within a DAW's project file - this means that any projects saved prior to updating will contain the old patches. Therefore after updating, if you wish to continue working on any projects saved prior to installing the update, please make sure you reload any CSW patches used."


----------



## kupo15

philthevoid said:


> Did you follow this tip from the update email?
> 
> "[...] Kontakt patches are saved within a DAW's project file - this means that any projects saved prior to updating will contain the old patches. Therefore after updating, if you wish to continue working on any projects saved prior to installing the update, please make sure you reload any CSW patches used."


hmm, I somehow missed that. Reloading as in replacing each instrument individually via drag and drop? Then that will overwrite all my routing and mic stuff within Kontakt. Though I can simply save the kontakt config, replace all the instruments then load all those settings again?


----------



## philthevoid

kupo15 said:


> hmm, I somehow missed that. Reloading as in replacing each instrument individually via drag and drop? Then that will overwrite all my routing and mic stuff within Kontakt. Though I can simply save the kontakt config, replace all the instruments then load all those settings again?


Yeah, it means replacing each instrument individually like you said. You'll lose your settings. I'm not sure if saving the Kontakt config will work as I have not tried myself. The interface is so simple that I just edited everything again by hand and it didn't take that long. But saving/loading config is certainly worth a try!


----------



## kupo15

philthevoid said:


> Yeah, it means replacing each instrument individually like you said. You'll lose your settings. I'm not sure if saving the Kontakt config will work as I have not tried myself. The interface is so simple that I just edited everything again by hand and it didn't take that long. But saving/loading config is certainly worth a try!


uhg that's a pain. I just found the snapshot feature and tested it and that does the job with saving my configs at least! I have all my instruments routing all of their mics and not using the mix so it would take a lot longer for me to do. Thanks for the help, finally getting things working again!


----------



## NoamL

Can anyone else confirm the Piccolo,* Sustains, Room Mic only*, causes notes to freeze and crash Kontakt/VEP? Just noodling around in the instrument's lower 2 octaves will trigger the crash. Seems like it must be sample based because the other mics don't cause a crash? I didn't test all the other articulations but the staccatos don't seem to crash either.

EDIT: the crash sounds like the instrument is being pushed through a granular synth. You hear the note but it becomes staticy & choppy and then VEP goes beachball mode.


----------



## muziksculp

NoamL said:


> Can anyone else confirm the Piccolo,* Sustains, Room Mic only*, causes notes to freeze and crash Kontakt/VEP? Just noodling around in the instrument's lower 2 octaves will trigger the crash. Seems like it must be sample based because the other mics don't cause a crash? I didn't test all the other articulations but the staccatos don't seem to crash either.
> 
> EDIT: the crash sounds like the instrument is being pushed through a granular synth. You hear the note but it becomes staticy & choppy and then VEP goes beachball mode.


Strange. Does it crash Kontakt when not using VEP ?


----------



## Robert_G

Any thoughts or insights to when this is finally going to fixed (finished)?


----------



## muziksculp

Robert_G said:


> Any thoughts or insights to when this is finally going to fixed (finished)?


No Insight, or thoughts, but surely getting tired of waiting


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

NoamL said:


> Can anyone else confirm the Piccolo,* Sustains, Room Mic only*, causes notes to freeze and crash Kontakt/VEP? Just noodling around in the instrument's lower 2 octaves will trigger the crash. Seems like it must be sample based because the other mics don't cause a crash? I didn't test all the other articulations but the staccatos don't seem to crash either.
> 
> EDIT: the crash sounds like the instrument is being pushed through a granular synth. You hear the note but it becomes staticy & choppy and then VEP goes beachball mode.


I hasn't been able to reproduce this on Win10 (20H2) Reaper 6.36. I tried it with both VST and VST3 versions of Kontakt.


----------



## jeremiahpena

NoamL said:


> Can anyone else confirm the Piccolo,* Sustains, Room Mic only*, causes notes to freeze and crash Kontakt/VEP? Just noodling around in the instrument's lower 2 octaves will trigger the crash. Seems like it must be sample based because the other mics don't cause a crash? I didn't test all the other articulations but the staccatos don't seem to crash either.
> 
> EDIT: the crash sounds like the instrument is being pushed through a granular synth. You hear the note but it becomes staticy & choppy and then VEP goes beachball mode.


Yes, I have this same bug (although with standalone Kontakt/hosted in Cubase). Certain legato transitions with the piccolo room mic do it for me, instant crash. Reported it to Alex who hadn't seen it before.


----------



## muziksculp

jeremiahpena said:


> Yes, I have this same bug (although with standalone Kontakt/hosted in Cubase). Certain legato transitions with the piccolo room mic do it for me, instant crash. Reported it to Alex who hadn't seen it before.



You are using Kontakt 5 ? Don't you need to use Kontakt 6 for CSW ?

EDIT : Oh they require Kontakt 5.8.1 and higher. So, maybe it's a newer bug they need to fix, meaning it will take even longer for the next CSW update.


----------



## jeremiahpena

muziksculp said:


> You are using Kontakt 5 ? Don't you need to use Kontakt 6 for CSW ?


Kontakt 5.8.1 is listed on the system requirement on the website. And if it was created with Kontakt 6, it wouldn't open at all in Kontakt 5.


----------



## muziksculp

jeremiahpena said:


> Kontakt 5.8.1 is listed on the system requirement on the website. And if it was created with Kontakt 6, it wouldn't open at all in Kontakt 5.


Yes, that's true. 

I hope it's not a complex issue to fix for Alex and crew.


----------



## muziksculp

jeremiahpena said:


> Yes, I have this same bug (although with standalone Kontakt/hosted in Cubase). Certain legato transitions with the piccolo room mic do it for me, instant crash. Reported it to Alex who hadn't seen it before.


I tested the Piccolo Legato, didn't have any crashing issues, or odd audio artifacts.

But I did notice that when I play C5 followed by B4, the red light next to the yellow one in the GUI lights up, as if the B4 sample was automatically purged, this is not normal, this also happens when playing C5 to D5. This shouldn't happen. So something is funky. I'm using Kontakt 6 (latest version on Windows 10) . The crashing you are having could be an issue with Kontakt 5.


----------



## Illico

muziksculp said:


> I tested the Piccolo Legato, didn't have any crashing issues, or odd audio artifacts.
> 
> But I did notice that when I play C5 followed by B4, the red light next to the yellow one in the GUI lights up, as if the B4 sample was automatically purged, this is not normal, this also happens when playing C5 to D5...


+1
Same glitch on red light in my Kontakt 6.6.0 with the Piccolo Legato sustain with some midi notes.


----------



## NoamL

I'm on Kontakt 5 as well. So yeah the crash seems to have something to do with how the different versions handle whatever the script is doing wrong there.


----------



## muziksculp

NoamL said:


> I'm on Kontakt 5 as well. So yeah the crash seems to have something to do with how the different versions handle whatever the script is doing wrong there.


Yes, that's my first guess. It's always safer to use the latest version of Kontakt, since it's most likely that Alex is using Kontakt 6 to develop his libraries, not Kontakt 5.


----------



## OttoPilot33

Man, I love this library! I just finished this:


----------



## aka70

So much work for this, incredible! Any chance sharing the midi?


----------



## OttoPilot33

Thank you!


aka70 said:


> So much work for this, incredible! Any chance sharing the midi?


Check your conversations.


----------



## Jdiggity1

muziksculp said:


> Yes, that's my first guess. It's always safer to use the latest version of Kontakt, since it's most likely that Alex is using Kontakt 6 to develop his libraries, not Kontakt 5.


An instrument can only load in the version it was created for, or higher.
So if it loads in Kontakt 5 (it does), then it was made for Kontakt 5. (5.6.8 to be precise)


----------



## muziksculp

Jdiggity1 said:


> An instrument can only load in the version it was created for, or higher.
> So if it loads in Kontakt 5 (it does), then it was made for Kontakt 5. (5.6.8 to be precise)


Yes, but it could be that the developer is using Kontakt 6 for the updates, which could be the reason for the crashes Kontakt 5 users are experiencing. I'm just speculating on this. Since I do not experience any crashes, I'm using Kontakt 6. But it could also be something else.


----------



## gohrev

OttoPilot33 said:


> Man, I love this library! I just finished this:


Christ almighty — that is truly impressive. You must've spent 100s of hours on this.


----------



## OttoPilot33

gohrev said:


> Christ almighty — that is truly impressive. You must've spent 100s of hours on this.


 Yes, it took many hours, but for me it's a hobby, so the process of working on a piece like this is just part of the enjoyment, no productivity pressure, so I don't work every day, in fact, sometimes several days in between, and just one hour or even less every time, just when I feel like it. It's very rewarding when the result is credible enough.


----------



## Kalli

OttoPilot33 said:


> Man, I love this library! I just finished this:



Wow! Just wow! Amazing job with all aspects of this mockup. If at any point you’d feel like doing a video walkthrough of your workflow I’m sure many here would be interested.

May I ask what mic positions you used in the Cinematic Studio libraries to achieve this sound?


----------



## OttoPilot33

Hello.
Thank you very much.


Kalli said:


> If at any point you’d feel like doing a video walkthrough of your workflow I’m sure many here would be interested.


Take a look at my answer to Tom Ferguson in the YT comment section.



Kalli said:


> May I ask what mic positions you used in the Cinematic Studio libraries to achieve this sound?


All instruments were left at their default mic position ("mix", in the case of Cinematic Studio Series).


----------



## Rob Elliott

OttoPilot33 said:


> Hello.
> Thank you very much.
> 
> Take a look at my answer to Tom Ferguson in the YT comment section.
> 
> 
> All instruments were left at their default mic position ("mix", in the case of Cinematic Studio Series).


Yep for me - I better have a good reason NOT just to use the 'mix' mic setting. Just sounds good in 90% of the uses (and I don't think that is true for their strings and brass.)


----------



## gohrev

Rob Elliott said:


> Yep for me - I better have a good reason NOT just to use the 'mix' mic setting. Just sounds good in 90% of the uses (and I don't think that is true for their strings and brass.)


Funny, I didn't like the mix at all and decided to go with roughly 30% Close and 70% Overhead (OH)


----------



## OttoPilot33

One important reason for using mostly just the "mix" mic position is RAM constraint. I only have 36 GB available and sample instruments consume a lot of it and I don't want to give up in using solo instruments whenever posible. I have no problem with CPU power, but RAM is a factor. As far as it sounds good, I leave it at "mix".
I have also used OH only (I think it was on "Clair de l'une").


----------



## Rob Elliott

gohrev said:


> Funny, I didn't like the mix at all and decided to go with roughly 30% Close and 70% Overhead (OH)


For me when the 'mix' doesn't work - I use something really close to this (my second favorite mic setup). But honestly I have the 'mix' in my template and often forget because it just gets the job done but I will make a note to 'test' this more often on final mixes .


----------



## Kalli

OttoPilot33 said:


> Hello.
> Thank you very much.
> 
> Take a look at my answer to Tom Ferguson in the YT comment section.
> 
> 
> All instruments were left at their default mic position ("mix", in the case of Cinematic Studio Series).


I just read your YT comment. Thanks for your detailed explanation! I'm amazed how you achieve such a great sound with such simple means. That's really inspiring!

I'm 100% with you about the primacy of musicality and performance. If you don't mind me asking: 

Did you work with both expression (CC11) and dynamics (CC1) in this piece, or just dynamics?


What's your method for working with the tempo track? Do you record to a straight tempo and adjust manually after the fact? Or do you set up the tempo track before recording most of the parts?


----------



## I like music

OttoPilot33 said:


> Man, I love this library! I just finished this:



Wow...


----------



## OttoPilot33

Kalli said:


> Did you work with both expression (CC11) and dynamics (CC1) in this piece, or just dynamics?


Yes, both, except for the harps that work differently. I primarily used CC1 with a touch of CC11 when needed, specially to refine the decay of phrase ending notes when CC1 would give too abrupt endings —like with the strings or the horns, for instance— and things like that, but otherwise CC1 is my primary tool.



Kalli said:


> What's your method for working with the tempo track? Do you record to a straight tempo and adjust manually after the fact? Or do you set up the tempo track before recording most of the parts?


As I explain in that answer to Tom Ferguson, I'm just an amateur musician with no formal education in music and a terrible keyboard player, so I use any means that is practical for the particular job to enter notes in the DAW as well as creating the tempo track, but recording MIDI while playing is no practical option for me. I've become very creative in that respect, believe me .
You will probably find it too convoluted and laugh with pity, but it works for me, and since I have no deadlines to comply with I can take all the time I need. This piece is a good example of what I normally do.

I normally begin by creating a score with all the parts in MuseScore, directly or by processing a scanned sheet with SmartScore, for instance. MuseScore (like any other notation program) is great too because it helps with easily getting the correct notes of transposing instruments without too much effort and calculations on my part and saves time. This is also a good time to study the composition and learn all its intricacies. Then I export the notes to Logic as MIDI or musicXML to have one track per score part, or more if I need divisi tracks.

I have previously listened many times to a couple of versions I like best of the music in question and maybe selected one as model (in this case it was a recording by Orchestre symphonique de Montréal conducted by Charles Dutoit) and taken notes of the performances in general, including the tempo. I annotate everything on the score itself.

Then, using a simple synth plugin in Logic, like Klopfgeist, while reading the score and reproducing the music in my mind (I imagine myself conducting), I record a metronome-like general audio track. This can be easily done a few measures at a time, which is good for me , and it doesn't need to be strictly beat to beat.
I use that clicking audio track to create a beat map (Beat Mapping function in Logic) to snap the beats of the MIDI to it. Then I further edit the resulting general tempo track with broad tempo modulations to refine it with all the necessary accelerandi, ritardandi, rubatos and everything until I'm happy. This can continue during all the process of creating the mockup, I'm never really satisfied!.
Well, call it clumsy and awkward, but that's how I normally do it 🤷🏽‍♂️.


----------



## Kalli

OttoPilot33 said:


> Yes, both, except for the harps that work differently. I primarily used CC1 with a touch of CC11 when needed, specially to refine the decay of phrase ending notes when CC1 would give too abrupt endings —like with the strings or the horns, for instance— and things like that, but otherwise CC1 is my primary tool.
> 
> 
> As I explain in that answer to Tom Ferguson, I'm just an amateur musician with no formal education in music and a terrible keyboard player, so I use any means that is practical for the particular job to enter notes in the DAW as well as creating the tempo track, but recording MIDI while playing is no practical option for me. I've become very creative in that respect, believe me .
> You will probably find it too convoluted and laugh with pity, but it works for me, and since I have no deadlines to comply with I can take all the time I need. This piece is a good example of what I normally do.
> 
> I normally begin by creating a score with all the parts in MuseScore, directly or by processing a scanned sheet with SmartScore, for instance. MuseScore (like any other notation program) is great too because it helps with easily getting the correct notes of transposing instruments without too much effort and calculations on my part and saves time. This is also a good time to study the composition and learn all its intricacies. Then I export the notes to Logic as MIDI or musicXML to have one track per score part, or more if I need divisi tracks.
> 
> I have previously listened many times to a couple of versions I like best of the music in question and maybe selected one as model (in this case it was a recording by Orchestre symphonique de Montréal conducted by Charles Dutoit) and taken notes of the performances in general, including the tempo. I annotate everything on the score itself.
> 
> Then, using a simple synth plugin in Logic, like Klopfgeist, while reading the score and reproducing the music in my mind (I imagine myself conducting), I record a metronome-like general audio track. This can be easily done a few measures at a time, which is good for me , and it doesn't need to be strictly beat to beat.
> I use that clicking audio track to create a beat map (Beat Mapping function in Logic) to snap the beats of the MIDI to it. Then I further edit the resulting general tempo track with broad tempo modulations to refine it with all the necessary accelerandi, ritardandi, rubatos and everything until I'm happy. This can continue during all the process of creating the mockup, I'm never really satisfied!.
> Well, call it clumsy and awkward, but that's how I normally do it 🤷🏽‍♂️.


Nothing clumsy or awkward at all about that process. Instead, I’d call it thorough and dedicated. And, obviously, it gives you fantastic results. Your mock-up is one of very few out there that feels like a genuinely expressive and artistic performance. What you may lack in keyboard skills you certainly make up for by your musical talent. Keep up the great work!

Thanks again for generously sharing your workflow! I find it very inspiring.


----------



## OttoPilot33

You all have been too generous with your comments about my humble work, specially considering that many of them come from people I suppose are professional musicians but if there is something I can share as a relevant tip for many of you is something that came up from conversations with friends of mine in relation to this work in particular and that they suggested to bring up in this forum: Let your players breath!
I have heard too many mockups in which brass or woodwind parts are played as if there was no need for those virtual players to breath. One thing that contributes to realism in a virtual performance is pauses where real musicians would usually breath. In my opinion, there is no hard rule why a melody line, regardless how it is written on the score, cannot be played without pauses for letting musicians to get the oxygen their brains need to continue to delight us with their art.
If you careful listen to my rendition of this work and others, you will probably notice pauses where I imagine real human players would need to breath.
This is something many of you, accomplished musicians, already know, but given the fact that I can still hear mockups in which this is neglected, I decided to bring up here.
Pardon me if I'm being too obvious.


----------



## BassClef

OttoPilot33 said:


> You all have been too generous with your comments about my humble work, specially considering that many of them come from people I suppose are professional musicians but if there is something I can share as a relevant tip for many of you is something that came up from conversations with friends of mine in relation to this work in particular and that they suggested to bring up in this forum: Let your players breath!
> I have heard too many mockups in which brass or woodwind parts are played as if there was no need for those virtual players to breath. One thing that contributes to realism in a virtual performance is pauses where real musicians would usually breath. In my opinion, there is no hard rule why a melody line, regardless how it is written on the score, cannot be played without pauses for letting musicians to get the oxygen their brains need to continue to delight us with their art.
> If you careful listen to my rendition of this work and others, you will probably notice pauses where I imagine real human players would need to breath.
> This is something many of you, accomplished musicians, already know, but given the fact that I can still hear mockups in which this is neglected, I decided to bring up here.
> Pardon me if I'm being too obvious.


Excellent point. As a French Horn player I can assure you that there is a limit to the duration of my sustains!


----------



## DDK

BassClef said:


> Excellent point. As a French Horn player I can assure you that there is a limit to the duration of my sustains!


Are you using track delay


OttoPilot33 said:


> You all have been too generous with your comments about my humble work, specially considering that many of them come from people I suppose are professional musicians but if there is something I can share as a relevant tip for many of you is something that came up from conversations with friends of mine in relation to this work in particular and that they suggested to bring up in this forum: Let your players breath!
> I have heard too many mockups in which brass or woodwind parts are played as if there was no need for those virtual players to breath. One thing that contributes to realism in a virtual performance is pauses where real musicians would usually breath. In my opinion, there is no hard rule why a melody line, regardless how it is written on the score, cannot be played without pauses for letting musicians to get the oxygen their brains need to continue to delight us with their art.
> If you careful listen to my rendition of this work and others, you will probably notice pauses where I imagine real human players would need to breath.
> This is something many of you, accomplished musicians, already know, but given the fact that I can still hear mockups in which this is neglected, I decided to bring up here.
> Pardon me if I'm being too obvious.


Are you using track delays?


----------



## BassClef

DDK said:


> Are you using track delay
> 
> Are you using track delays?


I do use track delays, but the recent discussion on this thread was about phrase/sustain length and how wind players must actually breath. So again, I do use track delays on all Cinematic Studio instruments (as well as many others) to keep the instruments on the beat.


----------



## Toecutter

OttoPilot33 said:


> Man, I love this library! I just finished this:


----------



## tim727

I don't have time to read this whole thread so forgive me if this has been brought up ... but is it a known issue that the panning in the solo flute differs depending on articulation? I noticed for instance that the repetitions are panned differently from the other shorts ... as is the marcato. Haven't yet tested all the other instruments to see if this same issue comes up in other spots.


----------



## ahorsewhocandrive

IDK if it's been addressed but I've had the same issue yeah


----------



## tim727

ahorsewhocandrive said:


> IDK if it's been addressed but I've had the same issue yeah


Ok so at least it's not just me. Does anyone know if Alex has commented on this at some point? It feels like a pretty bad issue. What kind of workarounds are people using?


----------



## ethormusic

tim727 said:


> I don't have time to read this whole thread so forgive me if this has been brought up ... but is it a known issue that the panning in the solo flute differs depending on articulation? I noticed for instance that the repetitions are panned differently from the other shorts ... as is the marcato. Haven't yet tested all the other instruments to see if this same issue comes up in other spots.


Out of curiosity how are you panning the flute? Through the instrument itself in Kontakt or some other means?


----------



## N.Caffrey

The legato of the instruments is broken with the normal mix, works if I select another microphone.


----------



## Soundbed

N.Caffrey said:


> The legato of the instruments is broken with the normal mix, works if I select another microphone.


----------



## muziksculp

Still waiting for updates for CSS, CSSS, CSW, CSB. What's the status of these updates ?

Any feedback from Alex W. of Cinematic Studio Series would be appreciated.


----------



## N.Caffrey

Soundbed said:


>


This made me laugh out loud 😆


----------



## filipjonathan

muziksculp said:


> CSS, CSSS, CSW, CSB.


I just realized I have all of these lol Am I a CS fan boy?


----------



## Trash Panda

filipjonathan said:


> I just realized I have all of these lol Am I a CS fan boy?


That depends on how rabidly you attack anyone who questions the divinity of Alex W's work.


----------



## Trash Panda

muziksculp said:


> Still waiting for updates for CSS, CSSS, CSW, CSB. What's the status of these updates ?
> 
> Any feedback from Alex W. of Cinematic Studio Series would be appreciated.


Based on past history, the only feedback will be a thread announcing when any updates are ready for download.


----------



## Evans

filipjonathan said:


> I just realized I have all of these lol Am I a CS fan boy?


You don't have CS2 and CSP?


----------



## ethormusic

muziksculp said:


> Still waiting for updates for CSS, CSSS, CSW, CSB. What's the status of these updates ?
> 
> Any feedback from Alex W. of Cinematic Studio Series would be appreciated.


I would welcome an update for CSW out of all of these. The clarinet sounds kinda meh but still better than most other libraries. As a clarinet player, it must be pretty difficult to sample the clarinet. Amazingly enough Cinesamples managed have their sample clarinet go below a low concert D (one octave below middle D) which is an amazing feat since my Bb clarinet cannot go below that note.


----------



## filipjonathan

Evans said:


> You don't have CS2 and CSP?


Actually I do own CSP. No CS2 though.


----------



## muziksculp

Trash Panda said:


> Based on past history, the only feedback will be a thread announcing when any updates are ready for download.


And since we have two weeks remaining in 2021, will it happen this year ?


----------



## N.Caffrey

muziksculp said:


> And since we have two weeks remaining in 2021, will it happen this year ?


I wouldn't hold my breath. I start to feel surprised and disappointed by this delay.


----------



## tim727

ethormusic said:


> Out of curiosity how are you panning the flute? Through the instrument itself in Kontakt or some other means?


I didn't explicitly change the panning of anything, so it's panned however it is out of the box. I did notice recently though that the issue appears to only be on the mix mic, so a simple workaround is to just not use the mix mic, which is fine for me as I've turned off close mics for the lib anyway to push it further back and get it to sit a bit better with OT stuff.


----------



## Soundbed

ethormusic said:


> I would welcome an update for CSW out of all of these. The clarinet sounds kinda meh but still better than most other libraries. As a clarinet player, it must be pretty difficult to sample the clarinet. Amazingly enough Cinesamples managed have their sample clarinet go below a low concert D (one octave below middle D) which is an amazing feat since my Bb clarinet cannot go below that note.


The main (only?) reason I'm interested in VSL Synchron Woodwinds is that Bb Clarinet... wow.


----------



## Robert_G

Soundbed said:


> The main (only?) reason I'm interested in VSL Synchron Woodwinds is that Bb Clarinet... wow.


I only got to play around with it for about 15 mins so far and I don't really like using sampled Clarinets. Synchron Clarinet Bb has changed that for me.


----------



## Rob Elliott

The original VSL clarinet from ages ago is that Library's best. I still use it on some projects.


----------



## andyhy

N.Caffrey said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath. I start to feel surprised and disappointed by this delay.


I think it will be worth the wait.


----------



## Trash Panda

muziksculp said:


> And since we have two weeks remaining in 2021, will it happen this year ?


----------



## muziksculp

Trash Panda said:


>


@Trash Panda,

I didn't know you joined the Cinematic Studio team, and are also a spokesman for them.


----------



## SwordComposer

ethormusic said:


> I would welcome an update for CSW out of all of these. The clarinet sounds kinda meh but still better than most other libraries. As a clarinet player, it must be pretty difficult to sample the clarinet. Amazingly enough Cinesamples managed have their sample clarinet go below a low concert D (one octave below middle D) which is an amazing feat since my Bb clarinet cannot go below that note.


I thought the clarinets were quite good in CSW from what I've used of them for so far. 

I'm not sure how well other libraries would handle this legato passage in the attachments of this post.

Also what do you think of Embertone's Herring Clarinet? By far the most agile clarinet out there, my other go to besides CSW's.


----------



## Aitcpiano

Really liking CSW. I'm wondering if their is any planned improvements for the crossfades and phasing coming? I've ended up at some points needing to set the mod wheel at a static position and then riding CC11 down/up for the dynamics but this is quite a pain and I'd rather just use Dynamics CC1 rather than messing with CC11 all the time. When mocking up a piece I have also been tending to move CC1 less than I normally would with CSW to avoid some of these obvious crossfading issues and phasing. I know this is often an issue with woodwind libraries but it would be nice if their was some improvements in this area or any ways to easily work around this beyond using a static dynamic layer and using CC11.


----------



## muziksculp

Given CSW, and many other sample libraries are not phase aligned, you will hear a little phasing when you Xfade through the multiple velocities. There is always a price to pay. If you get a phase-aligned library like Chris Hein Woodwinds, you won't hear any phasing, but then you have to work on putting them in a virtual space. I don't think the phasing in CSW can be fixed.


----------



## Soundbed

Aitcpiano said:


> Really liking CSW. I'm wondering if their is any planned improvements for the crossfades and phasing coming? I've ended up at some points needing to set the mod wheel at a static position and then riding CC11 down/up for the dynamics but this is quite a pain and I'd rather just use Dynamics CC1 rather than messing with CC11 all the time. When mocking up a piece I have also been tending to move CC1 less than I normally would with CSW to avoid some of these obvious crossfading issues and phasing. I know this is often an issue with woodwind libraries but it would be nice if their was some improvements in this area or any ways to easily work around this beyond using a static dynamic layer and using CC11.


I was playing with CSSS tonight and the crossfades are differently distracting, so I’d also want to set them and ride expression. I sort of accept that CSSS and CSW don’t necessarily crossfade dynamic layers and vibrato satisfactorily.


----------



## Aitcpiano

muziksculp said:


> Given CSW, and many other sample libraries are not phase aligned, you will hear a little phasing when you Xfade through the multiple velocities. There is always a price to pay. If you get a phase-aligned library like Chris Hein Woodwinds, you won't hear any phasing, but then you have to work on putting them in a virtual space. I don't think the phasing in CSW can be fixed.


Yeah I agree not so much fixed, probably used the wrong wording there but improved upon or any kind of easier workout arounds.


----------



## muziksculp

Aitcpiano said:


> Yeah I agree not so much fixed, probably used the wrong wording there but improved upon or any kind of easier workout arounds.


Improvement is only possible by workarounds, i.e. just using expression, and keep the dynamics constant. but they can't be technically improved because they are not phase-aligned. So, a real fix is impossible.


----------



## Aitcpiano

muziksculp said:


> Improvement is only possible by workarounds, i.e. just using expression, and keep the dynamics constant. but they can't be technically improved because they are not phase-aligned. So, a real fix is impossible.


True, I suppose this is just one of the limitations of none phase aligned woodwinds. I'm wondering the best way to use the library or if I should just set a dynamic level between the 3 layers and then use CC11 instead of using CC1 or primarily still use CC1 and just make less movements between the obvious crossfade points and then use CC11 when really needed. Something like VSL Synchron Woods timbre setting would be useful in CSW.


----------



## gohrev

Aitcpiano said:


> True, I suppose this is just one of the limitations of none phase aligned woodwinds. I'm wondering the best way to use the library or if I should use just set a dynamic level between the 3 layers and then use CC11 instead of using CC1 or primarily still use CC1 and just make less movements between the obvious crossfade points and then use CC11 when really needed. Something like VSL Synchron Woods timbre setting would be useful in CSW.


I agree. It's especially noticeable with the Clarinet and the Bassoon. Even though they both sound absolutely wonderful, that phasing really gets to me!

Flute and Oboe both sound, well, clean as whistle…


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## Trash Panda

muziksculp said:


> @Trash Panda,
> 
> I didn't know you joined the Cinematic Studio team, and are also a spokesman for them.


You’re right, I have not done so. I’m just selfish and don’t want to have to update my damn template for another update quite yet. 😂


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## ethormusic

SwordComposer said:


> I thought the clarinets were quite good in CSW from what I've used of them for so far.
> 
> I'm not sure how well other libraries would handle this legato passage in the attachments of this post.
> 
> Also what do you think of Embertone's Herring Clarinet? By far the most agile clarinet out there, my other go to besides CSW's.


Again, I play the clarinet, so my ears are way more sensitive to the realism of a sampled clarinet. CSW's clarinet is probably among the best of sampled libraries for what it does, but it still sounds meh to me at times because of some things that Alex is hopefully fixing.

I haven't tried Herring Clarinet... almost bought it during Embertone's last sale. They make good stuff... I absolutely love their 1955 Walker D piano. Based on the demos, Herring Clarinet sounds good, but I can't justify spending money on it when I can record my clarinet live.


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## Robert_G

Bluemount Score said:


> Thanks for the kind words!!
> 
> Here are the mic settings:
> 
> CSSS first chairs:
> -8.5dB Close
> -24dB Main
> -3.5dB Room
> 
> CSS:
> -4.5 Close
> -20dB Main
> -3.5dB Room
> 
> CSW:
> -12dB OH
> -30dB Main
> -2.5dB Room
> 
> CSB (just the solo horn in this track):
> -16.5dB Close
> muted Main mic
> -2.0dB Room
> 
> CSP:
> -16.0dB Close
> -10dB Main
> -3.0dB Room
> 
> Additional space created with Seventh Heaven Studio A preset, adjusted individually for the sections. Panning was only done by using close mics.


I've tried your settings a few times and I'm pretty close to liking them with a few small adjustments. Are you still using these mic settings for the most part?


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## Bluemount Score

Robert_G said:


> I've tried your settings a few times and I'm pretty close to liking them with a few small adjustments. Are you still using these mic settings for the most part?


Yes they are still the settings in my Cinematic Studio Series Template!
However it has been a while since I last used it... not sure if I might do some slight adjustments myself by now.


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## gohrev

Reviving this thread to ask you all a question:


When you load a CSW instrument, say the Oboe, its default mic is the Mix. 
Now, say I want to use the Room mic only. The Mix mic gets deselected.
I notice the volume dips by 5 to 10db, depending on the instrument.

*My question:* Do you compensate the drop in volume by raising the output volume for the instrument? E.g. by moving the Room mic all the way up to 6db? Or do you simply accept that the instrument is quieter?


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## Kalli

gohrev said:


> *My question:* Do you compensate the drop in volume by raising the output volume for the instrument? E.g. by moving the Room mic all the way up to 6db? Or do you simply accept that the instrument is quieter?


In that case, I would keep the mic slider at 0 dB and adjust the volume using a gain plugin on the track. I tend to do all of my gain staging that way. The only exception is if I want to temporarily bring a certain instrument into focus, e.g., for a solo passage. Then I would bring up the close mic using automation, which will also increase the overall volume of the instrument.


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## gohrev

Kalli said:


> In that case, I would keep the mic slider at 0 dB and adjust the volume using a gain plugin on the track. I tend to do all of my gain staging that way. The only exception is if I want to temporarily bring a certain instrument into focus, e.g., for a solo passage. Then I would bring up the close mic using automation, which will also increase the overall volume of the instrument.


Thank you for responding, Kalli. I think what I am trying to ask is more: Given that the output of the other mics are by default quieter than the Mix mic, do you compensate for the 'loss' in volume or not?


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## gohrev

Oh, and another question if you don't mind: Why would you rather adjust the volume using a gain plugin, rather than moving the mic slider in Kontakt?


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## Kalli

gohrev said:


> Thank you for responding, Kalli. I think what I am trying to ask is more: Given that the output of the other mics are by default quieter than the Mix mic, do you compensate for the 'loss' in volume or not?


If it's necessary to get a proper balance between instruments, then yes I would make up for the loss in volume by adding gain. I tend to use similar mic mixes across all instruments in a section, however. So if I were to use only the room mic for all woodwinds, I would add a constant amount of gain to all WW tracks to bring them back to a natural balance with the other sections. Unless I'm going for a certain effect, say a distant instrument in the back of the room. Then it makes sense for the instrument to be quieter.



gohrev said:


> Oh, and another question if you don't mind: Why would you rather adjust the volume using a gain plugin, rather than moving the mic slider in Kontakt?


This is mostly a matter of personal preference and workflow, I guess. I like to have a gain plugin on all instrument tracks so that I can quickly overview the settings and easily tweak levels without going into Kontakt. I also keep a gain plugin on my CSW bus, so that I can quickly change the volume of the whole section using a single knob. I prefer this to using the DAW mixer faders for gain staging. I'd rather keep the faders at 0 dB and save them for any volume automation I might want to do at a later stage. Also, I'm allergic to faders going above 0 dB...


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## Illico

Kalli said:


> If it's necessary to get a proper balance between instruments, then yes I would make up for the loss in volume by adding gain. I tend to use similar mic mixes across all instruments in a section, however. So if I were to use only the room mic for all woodwinds, I would add a constant amount of gain to all WW tracks to bring them back to a natural balance with the other sections. Unless I'm going for a certain effect, say a distant instrument in the back of the room. Then it makes sense for the instrument to be quieter.
> 
> 
> This is mostly a matter of personal preference and workflow, I guess. I like to have a gain plugin on all instrument tracks so that I can quickly overview the settings and easily tweak levels without going into Kontakt. I also keep a gain plugin on my CSW bus, so that I can quickly change the volume of the whole section using a single knob. I prefer this to using the DAW mixer faders for gain staging. I'd rather keep the faders at 0 dB and save them for any volume automation I might want to do at a later stage. Also, I'm allergic to faders going above 0 dB...


At the opposite, my process is:

- On each Kontakt instrument instance, in the GUI, I set all mics to 0dB with multi outputs, then choose which mics I enabled.

- On DAW Group track (Cubase), on my template, I made the gain staging by setting mics faders to my default settings (only mix for RAM usage optimization or a combination of Close/OH/Main for better sound)

For a specific project, I could change the mixing directly on my DAW (No additional plugins needed)


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## gohrev

Kalli said:


> If it's necessary to get a proper balance between instruments, then yes I would make up for the loss in volume by adding gain. I tend to use similar mic mixes across all instruments in a section, however. So if I were to use only the room mic for all woodwinds, I would add a constant amount of gain to all WW tracks to bring them back to a natural balance with the other sections. Unless I'm going for a certain effect, say a distant instrument in the back of the room. Then it makes sense for the instrument to be quieter.


Thank you. I agree re: similar mic mixes across all instruments, but I find that the Main mic tends to be a bit "boomy" for some of the instruments, opting for the more airy Room mic instead. 



Kalli said:


> This is mostly a matter of personal preference and workflow, I guess. I like to have a gain plugin on all instrument tracks so that I can quickly overview the settings and easily tweak levels without going into Kontakt. I also keep a gain plugin on my CSW bus, so that I can quickly change the volume of the whole section using a single knob. I prefer this to using the DAW mixer faders for gain staging. I'd rather keep the faders at 0 dB and save them for any volume automation I might want to do at a later stage. Also, I'm allergic to faders going above 0 dB...


Many thanks for explaining, I learnt something today.


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## Casiquire

gohrev said:


> Oh, and another question if you don't mind: Why would you rather adjust the volume using a gain plugin, rather than moving the mic slider in Kontakt?


My reason for using a gain plugin is A, i can get clearer metering. If I'm using hardware emulation plugins especially, the gain level is important to get the best sound out of effects (I'll be more detailed in a second). And B, it makes everything consistent. If i just use the knob in kontakt, then I have to use the knob in every other instrument too. Then i have to go looking for it in Omnisphere, SINE, Synchron etc one by one which is a nightmare and wastes time. Plus gain staging plugins are just so handy. Kontakt can't bring the level up before one effect, then back down again right after it

Gain staging is really important and i bring it up any time i see the words "kontakt volume knob" used a little too close together. Check the manuals on your plugins and make sure you're feeding the right amount of dB into your effects. This is important because many of them are designed to work best within a sweet spot, but there are also physics at play. When you have more sound to work with, the quality is better, just like when you try to take a picture at night and realize that it's way easier during the day when there's more light to work with. It took me a long, long time to learn this. I wish I knew about it early on

But if you just bump the volume up in Kontakt to get up to the right level for a lot of effects, your mix can get awfully loud, and nobody wants to start a mix with all their faders down 15dB. I'll often have a plugin at the end of an effects chain just bringing the volume down to a reasonable place to start mixing, especially for effects that don't volume match and come out pretty hot


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## BassClef

Casiquire said:


> My reason for using a gain plugin is A, i can get clearer metering. If I'm using hardware emulation plugins especially, the gain level is important to get the best sound out of effects (I'll be more detailed in a second). And B, it makes everything consistent. If i just use the knob in kontakt, then I have to use the knob in every other instrument too. Then i have to go looking for it in Omnisphere, SINE, Synchron etc one by one which is a nightmare and wastes time. Plus gain staging plugins are just so handy. Kontakt can't bring the level up before one effect, then back down again right after it
> 
> Gain staging is really important and i bring it up any time i see the words "kontakt volume knob" used a little too close together. Check the manuals on your plugins and make sure you're feeding the right amount of dB into your effects. This is important because many of them are designed to with best within a sweet spot, but there are also physics at play. When you have more sound to work with, the quality is better, just like when you try to take a picture at night and realize that it's way easier during the day when there's more light to work with. It took me a long, long time to learn this. I wish I knew about it early on
> 
> But if you just bump the volume up in Kontakt to get up to the right level for a lot of effects, your mix can get awfully loud, and nobody wants to start a mix with all their faders down 15dB. I'll often have a plugin at the end of an effects chain just bringing the volume down to a reasonable place to start mixing, especially for effects that don't volume match and come out pretty hot


Thanks... very good explanation. I'm a hobbyist and user of the "Kontakt volume knob" for track level adjustments, but I am now rethinking that workflow. Do you have a gain plugin preloaded on all tracks in your templates?


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## I like music

Casiquire said:


> My reason for using a gain plugin is A, i can get clearer metering. If I'm using hardware emulation plugins especially, the gain level is important to get the best sound out of effects (I'll be more detailed in a second). And B, it makes everything consistent. If i just use the knob in kontakt, then I have to use the knob in every other instrument too. Then i have to go looking for it in Omnisphere, SINE, Synchron etc one by one which is a nightmare and wastes time. Plus gain staging plugins are just so handy. Kontakt can't bring the level up before one effect, then back down again right after it
> 
> Gain staging is really important and i bring it up any time i see the words "kontakt volume knob" used a little too close together. Check the manuals on your plugins and make sure you're feeding the right amount of dB into your effects. This is important because many of them are designed to with best within a sweet spot, but there are also physics at play. When you have more sound to work with, the quality is better, just like when you try to take a picture at night and realize that it's way easier during the day when there's more light to work with. It took me a long, long time to learn this. I wish I knew about it early on
> 
> But if you just bump the volume up in Kontakt to get up to the right level for a lot of effects, your mix can get awfully loud, and nobody wants to start a mix with all their faders down 15dB. I'll often have a plugin at the end of an effects chain just bringing the volume down to a reasonable place to start mixing, especially for effects that don't volume match and come out pretty hot


Interesting. Never even considered any of this. Explains some issues I've had. Are there free gain plugins out there? Do any exist within Cubase for example?


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## BassClef

I use the free gain plugin that comes inside Logic.


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## Illico

I like music said:


> Do any exist within Cubase for example?


The *Pre rack* for audio-related channels features a high-cut and a low-cut filter as well as *gain *and phase settings.





Channel Racks


The Channel Racks section contains specific MixConsole functions, such as routing, insert, or send handling. These are organized in racks.




steinberg.help


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## Casiquire

BassClef said:


> Thanks... very good explanation. I'm a hobbyist and user of the "Kontakt volume knob" for track level adjustments, but I am now rethinking that workflow. Do you have a gain plugin preloaded on all tracks in your templates?


No, but now that you mention it i might reconsider? I don't have one on every single track every single time but i do think i use a plugin roughly half the time. 

I also don't think it's something you necessarily need to obsess over. Maybe more experienced mixers will correct me here but I see it just the same as reverb or EQ or anything else. Use it when there's a need. If you don't see a need, don't even waste time thinking about it. But it's helpful to know what it can do for you.



I like music said:


> Interesting. Never even considered any of this. Explains some issues I've had. Are there free gain plugins out there? Do any exist within Cubase for example?




I don't know much about Cubase unfortunately, but plenty of free ones exist! I like mvmeter and one or two others whose names escape me.


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## gohrev

Casiquire said:


> My reason for using a gain plugin is (...)


Many thanks for your thorough explanation, Casiquire


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## Kony

I agree with everything @Casiquire said - I use the pre-gain in Cubase though, and some gain plugins where necessary.


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## Pooley

Sorry to maybe change the subject - But since there has been an update of CSS released today - has there every been an update of CSW? I am not sure if I have the latest version and can't seem to find any info on their website about it - I thought here may be the best place to ask?
Maybe a similar question for CSB or CSP?


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## gohrev

An update was released a few months after CSW got released, if memory serves me correctly. Your current version in Native Access should be 1.3.0


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## Kony

Pooley said:


> Maybe a similar question for CSB or CSP?


I think Alex indicated in the CSS 1.7 thread that he is working on similar updates for CSW and CSB.


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## Bluemount Score

I like music said:


> Are there free gain plugins out there?


GGain can get you up to +12dB






GVST - GGain


GVST GGain is a free gain effect (Windows VST)




www.gvst.co.uk


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## I like music

Bluemount Score said:


> GGain can get you up to +12dB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GVST - GGain
> 
> 
> GVST GGain is a free gain effect (Windows VST)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gvst.co.uk


Superb thank you! Will try it later.


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## Bluemount Score

Kony said:


> I think Alex indicated in the CSS 1.7 thread that he is working on similar updates for CSW and CSB.


Probably rather CSSS and CSB at first as CSW at 1.3 is still pretty much up to date (including the low latency legato and such)


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## BassClef

Bluemount Score said:


> Probably rather CSSS and CSB at first as CSW at 1.3 is still pretty much up to date (including the low latency legato and such)


I think you are right. Alex did mention in one of his videos that some of the brass was from CSB 1.7 "in progress".


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## philthevoid

Bluemount Score said:


> Probably rather CSSS and CSB at first as CSW at 1.3 is still pretty much up to date (including the low latency legato and such)


Yeah but he also mentionned another update to CSW. It might not be as big an update as CSS 1.7 but it will fix the trills on the piccolo (for all mics except 'mix') which are missing entirely and I believe he was also working on some inconsistencies and polish.

This recent post confirms a *1.7 version is indeed coming for all libraries* including CSW:
"_Hi there, low-latency legato is basically just the same concept as what's already there, except with less delay. I first introduced this in CSW, except I've improved the realism since then, and all of the other libraries (including CSW) will see the same improvements when they get their own "v1.7" release._"
SOURCE:





Cinematic Studio Strings v1.7 - Available August 30!


Thank you for this fantastic update! The improvements sound really great and the marcato seems especially fun - can't wait to play around with that. And I would also pay for an update like that...




vi-control.net


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## TomaeusD

I'm surprised the missing piccolo WT trills haven't been fixed yet. It's been over a year since they were reported and acknowledged, right?


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## Robo Rivard

gohrev said:


> An update was released a few months after CSW got released, if memory serves me correctly. Your current version in Native Access should be 1.3.0


In Native Access, it says CSW 1.0.0... I don't see any option to update. Within Kontakt, it says V 1.043.


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## Tremendouz

Robo Rivard said:


> In Native Access, it says CSW 1.0.0... I don't see any option to update. Within Kontakt, it says V 1.043.


As far as I remember anything before CSS 1.7 update had to be downloaded using their own downloader application, not via Native Access. When in doubt, contact support.


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## philthevoid

TomaeusD said:


> I'm surprised the missing piccolo WT trills haven't been fixed yet. It's been over a year since they were reported and acknowledged, right?


True but he said it was minor enough that he would not release a quickfix/patch just for this. Hence we'll probably get the fix with the 1.7 update.

Also yeah, there is much confusion with the version numbers displayed on Native Access but that should not be an issue anymore from v1.7 and on. That also means easier/clearer version checks and updates (...and maybe the potential for quickfixes when needed? ).


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## Robo Rivard

Tremendouz said:


> As far as I remember anything before CSS 1.7 update had to be downloaded using their own downloader application, not via Native Access. When in doubt, contact support.


I think I will just wait for the 1.7 updates of CSW and CSB. The new CSS 1.7 is great!


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## cqd

Aren't we due an ensemble patch at some stage too?..


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## Bluemount Score

cqd said:


> Aren't we due an ensemble patch at some stage too?..


Well I could use one!


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## Pooley

gohrev said:


> An update was released a few months after CSW got released, if memory serves me correctly. Your current version in Native Access should be 1.3.0


Thanks mate, I just checked and I have 1.0 instead of the newer 1.30! Redownloading as we speak!


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## Baronvonheadless

I’ve been a bad boy. Bought css ad csb in the same day. Now I have all 3! 

Really digging csb under my fingers. I always liked the sound of cb but this is like junkie xl meets cb meets BBCSO. Except the smoothest mod wheel between dynamic layers I’ve ever heard (csb). 

Psyched to have another fully balanced orchestra like BBCSO except now it’s super tight with editing and it will make composing way easier. I’ve already made a bunch of expression maps and love that work flow. Can just hammer thru most ideas with the Marcato patch and then highlight what I want to change 😍


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## muziksculp

Baronvonheadless said:


> I’ve been a bad boy. Bought css ad csb in the same day. Now I have all 3!
> 
> Really digging csb under my fingers. I always liked the sound of cb but this is like junkie xl meets cb meets BBCSO. Except the smoothest mod wheel between dynamic layers I’ve ever heard (csb).
> 
> Psyched to have another fully balanced orchestra like BBCSO except now it’s super tight with editing and it will make composing way easier. I’ve already made a bunch of expression maps and love that work flow. Can just hammer thru most ideas with the Marcato patch and then highlight what I want to change 😍


 Cool ! 

Also CSB, and CSW will just get better with the next update. Do you also have CSW ?


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## Baronvonheadless

muziksculp said:


> Cool !
> 
> Also CSB, and CSW will just get better with the next update. Do you also have CSW ?


Yeah.

I'm getting up there with you with my collection of sample libraries now haha!


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## axb312

Any tips on mixing CSW? I'm struggling a bit with the solo Oboe.On the solo Flute I found the main mic does well do give a sense of depth while maintaining clarity. The same mic on the oboe sounds a little washy. 

Suggestions (not just for the oboe) greatly appreciated.


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## I like music

axb312 said:


> Any tips on mixing CSW? I'm struggling a bit with the solo Oboe.On the solo Flute I found the main mic does well do give a sense of depth while maintaining clarity. The same mic on the oboe sounds a little washy.
> 
> Suggestions (not just for the oboe) greatly appreciated.


Sorry I can't help, as i don't have the library. But I'd love to hear an example? Surprised that this would happen in the CS.


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## ethormusic

axb312 said:


> Any tips on mixing CSW? I'm struggling a bit with the solo Oboe.On the solo Flute I found the main mic does well do give a sense of depth while maintaining clarity. The same mic on the oboe sounds a little washy.
> 
> Suggestions (not just for the oboe) greatly appreciated.


Try the Overhead mics. Those will give you more detail while still being distant enough to get the full timbre of the instruments.


----------

