# Chris Hein Solo Viola vs a real violist (Two pieces for viola solo)



## and- (Apr 1, 2018)

I'd like to share two caprices for viola solo that I wrote recently. Also, it was good for me to see how a real violist reinterpreted what I originally "performed" with a VST.

I used CH Solo Viola to check how the pieces sound. I like this library a lot! It's fast and easy to work with (I draw my mockups with a mouse). On the other hand, there are enough articulations to get the sound which is close to what I want. In other words, there is a perfect balance between simplicity and complexity. I'm sure though, that my mockups are far from perfect, and I'll be happy to get some advices.

These two caprices were performed by violist Alexey Bogorad. He used a very special old viola for the recording: the instrument is very small (more or less the size of a violin, really). I think the sound that he manages to draw from it is absolutely gorgeous!

Recording was done with two pairs of microphones (close and far) in an old church.

In the links below you can find both the MIDI mockups and the recordings by Alexey Bogorad.

I'll be happy to get your feedback on the composition, MIDI programming, and performance.


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## and- (Apr 1, 2018)

A bit more about the recording. For each caprice I received two stereo files: one for the close mikes and the other one for the far mikes. The body of the instrument and the hall had nearly the same resonance frequency, and the mix sounded quite muddy. I tried to preserve the timbre of the instrument as much as I could - so I EQ-ed the far mikes, weakening that resonance.

And one more important thing that I forgot to mention. It was great to see that these pieces are actually possible to play.


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## Rob (Apr 2, 2018)

These live performances are just wonderful and show how a viola in capable hands can sound... like it a lot


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## Ron Verboom (Apr 2, 2018)

Rob said:


> wonderful and show how a viola in capable hands can sound


Yes, nothing (no vi) can beat that, sounds great!


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## Erik (Apr 2, 2018)

and two wonderful pieces, thanks for sharing!


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## Rob (Apr 2, 2018)

Erik said:


> and two wonderful pieces, thanks for sharing!


indeed


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## Gerald (Apr 2, 2018)

Wonderful live performance!!


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## and- (Apr 2, 2018)

*Rob, Ron Verboom, Erik, Gerald, TGV, aaronventure, Tatu, thereus, Levitanus, Dear Villain, SBK*

Thank you for listening and for so positive responses!

Alexey Bogorad is a great violist. I feel, I was very lucky that he decided to learn these caprices and to record them. I cannot expect it to happen often, though.  I have a question to those of you who liked the pieces themselves. Do you think that you would have perceived this music as "two wonderful pieces" (thank you very much Erik!) if listening to my mockups was the only option at this point? Or would your impression be very different?

I understand that it may be difficult to answer this question with absolute certainty now. Nevertheless, I'm very interested in your opinion, since I'm trying to figure out how much I can rely on my mockups, when presenting my music.


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## Ben E (Apr 2, 2018)

I didn’t expect this to be the case, but quite honestly I couldn’t hear the _composition_ until I listened to the human performance. More precisely, with the mockup I heard the notes and processed them analytically. But with the performance the composition came to life with a soul of its own. I had an “aha!” moment when I connected the notes with the composition. If that makes sense. Oh, and BTW, fantastic work!


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## Piano Pete (Apr 2, 2018)

No comparison in my mind between the real performance and the mockup. Solo instruments, especially strings and saxophones, I feel are very hard to sell with samples. I spent some time walking up and down the halls at a few places asking people, with no musical training, to choose their favorite recording of a small mockup by a friend. In this case, option A was recorded by a cellist. The majority picked the real one, especially kids oddly enough. They may not have the vocabulary to put their finger on what was different or why they preferred one over the other, but while I was not shocked at the results, my friend was.

This is one reason why I usually sweeten a lot of what I do-- like southern iced tea sweet. I feel that recorded instruments fill in the sonic gaps that the samples are lacking, while the samples just add bulk. Even if you cannot record every section, usually I find the main melody to be a good compromise. 

I am not a big fan of CH samples, especially their strings, but I will be the first to admit that I am a string player, and I am used to listening to real musicians on a near daily basis. 

One tip that I would have for your programming, a big thing for strings, is to go in and physically program each attack and tail manually--volume or whatever controller it is on your library. One, this is an attempt to mimic how we taper our attacks and releases: yes, this means your midi may overhang on the grid, but it is definitely worth it. It removes a majority of the insta-on/off effect that samples have. The second thing, is to try and mimic the breath of the instrument. If that is not ambiguous enough, what I mean is listen to the recording and the mockup. In the recording, he is letting the instrument breath and resonate, even on short notes. This is something that is usually a big give away to me. Heck, this is something real musicians have trouble with. For me, if I switch between the mockup and recording, I almost feel claustrophobic. Depending on the library, you may not be able to do much about that, but even I will obsessively go in and shape everything to get to about 70% of what I am aiming for--it is amazing what can be done with just volume. Anything after this point is diminishing returns for the amount of time it takes to program it. 

Lovely work.


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## and- (Apr 3, 2018)

Ben E said:


> BTW, fantastic work!


Thank you! These are very nice words.


Ben E said:


> I didn’t expect this to be the case, but quite honestly I couldn’t hear the _composition_ until I listened to the human performance.


That's bad news for me.  If the composition simply falls apart in the mockup version, then there is no point in making the mockup at all. On the other hand, I cannot expect all my new pieces to be played by musicians of this level.


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## and- (Apr 3, 2018)

Piano Pete said:


> Lovely work.


Thank you!

Also, thanks a lot for the advice. I have to admit: I already manipulated the volume on many longer notes (for example, in the middle part of the first caprice). Until I heard Alexey's recording, my mockup seemed to me perfectly musical and realistic.  And I even play viola a bit!

I guess, you described the problem very well:


Piano Pete said:


> Heck, this is something real musicians have trouble with.


Probably, I'm not a good enough performer to hear these things beforehand. Nevertheless, thank you for the suggestions regarding the attack-release and sweetening. It's good to know that I'm , at least, on the right path. The advice about letting the instrument to breath and resonate is very precise! And this bit is very useful as well:


Piano Pete said:


> it is amazing what can be done with just volume



Although, I have to say that one of my friends is strongly against "blowing bubbles" (this is how he calls a frequent use of crescendo-decrescendo in a single note). I guess, I have to figure out how to use this tastefully.


Piano Pete said:


> I am not a big fan of CH samples, especially their strings


The tone was not immediately inspiring to me, but I really like the variations his library offers: many versions of long and short notes, many versions of vibrato. And the tone could be shaped by EQ and reverb to my taste. It doesn't seem that I reached the limits of the library yet. As I already said, in isolation, the mockup seemed perfectly fine to me. I even managed to fool some musicians (but not string players).



Piano Pete said:


> No comparison in my mind between the real performance and the mockup.


Maybe I should clarify: it wasn't an attempt to compete with a real performer. I was trying to figure out whether these mockups are adequate representation of my music. It's really bad, if the music falls apart because of the mockup (see the message from Ben E). Also, dynamics in the mockup is the accurate representation of the dynamics how I imagine it. (corrected "phrasing" to "dynamics")


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## Przemek K. (Apr 3, 2018)

Nice pieces. I really dig the first one

Regarding the mockups. Piano Pete did give some great tips already, and in addition maybe I can give you some additional ones specifically for the CH Viola since
I did a fair share of mockups for Chris with his solo instruments (some were my compositions some were existing pieces) already.

Customize the settings within the instrument to suit a specific situation. Activate the speed (timemachine) feature where needed (can be automated). Great for speeding up/down vibrato, or the repetitions for example. Add additional notes to simulate either a pre attack or a release ( very short, and vary it with either short notes or even pizzicato) , draw some additional volume dropdowns specifically for the fake pre attacks ore releases.

In general don't give up. Analyze the hell out of the real performance. Experiment a lot. Think outside the box, this is a virtual instrument after all. Have fun exploring


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## Piano Pete (Apr 3, 2018)

The volume has less to do with blowing bubbles, but more of adding direction and phrasing to your lines; as in real life, you will shape each note differently depending on its context.

The use of volume to tame your tails and attacks is not really about riding it or even large-idea phrasing, but more of making sure that you do not have a sudden stop to the sample--even if it has a release tail. Think of it like micro-phrasing your attacks and releases, because this is what happens in real life-- although we do it in the midst of everything else, so it is something that we usually do not think about. I would not think that this practice would fall into the "musical sausages" or camel humps that occur when people do not think about phrasing (especially choirs), so I would not concern yourself with that--in this scenario. Perhaps that is what your friend was talking about? This is the sort of thing that a lot of pianists do: playing to the barlines versus the phrase.

Regarding your comment about your music and its representation with samples: do not worry about it. Unless you are writing to the samples, good luck trying to compete against real instruments for certain types of music: especially solos. Samples are great, they can even do impossible things, but oddly enough, they cannot (as of now) pull off some of the stuff we love about the real deal. If I can reach 60-70% of the musical impact with samples, I count it as a success. The average population will not really miss the final 40-30% that real musicians bring, unless you A-B it. They only hear the composition in its presented form, they do not know of all the great ideas or timbres that you left out during the composition process. Now, if you present some of the stuff that you left out, maybe they'll yell at you for not adding it . The blessing and curse of having instruments in the box!

While these are my opinions on samples, that is how I feel about them. I cannot comment on the number of times that samples did not adequately reflect my music in its final form. I have yet to mock-up a modern chamber work that even came close the final recording. There have also been plenty of times where I have sat back and told the director, "Wait till you hear it live." Samples have also backed me into the corner on a few occasions. In my experience, very few non-musicians can truly hear the music through a mockup. Even fewer can hear the music, let alone the orchestration, through a piano sketch, so I would not lose sleep over it. Just try to get it as close as possible, and when the opportunities arise, put your stuff in front of real musicians or individuals with experience to evaluate where your composition, not programming, skills are at. Unless doing sound design, I do not consider these to be the same thing. Sides of a coin, yes.

One of my first experiences with mockups to recording session was horrible. Now, I feel that I am pretty decent at programming with the samples I have, but this piece just was not sounding anything like the way I had it in my head when I finished programming it. Mind you, I had written traditionally before this quite successfully; however, based on what was in my head, I was determined that the notes in this case were the correct ones. Of course, the anxiety came from the mockup disagreeing with my musical intuition. The powers at be were happy with how it sounded and ok'd a session, but I was sweating bullets. From the first downbeat, I kicked myself in the rear for all the anxiety that I had created for myself, and from that point on, I listen to my mockups with mental blinders on. I will be the first one to admit that I have a lot of room to improve my programming, but my advice: try not to let it get to you too much. There are enough what-if questions floating around our minds when we are composing, don't try to add more based on the programming .


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## Paul T McGraw (Apr 4, 2018)

and- said:


> Thank you! These are very nice words.
> 
> That's bad news for me.  If the composition simply falls apart in the mockup version, then there is no point in making the mockup at all. On the other hand, I cannot expect all my new pieces to be played by musicians of this level.



I preferred the live performance, but I also enjoyed your midi-performance. In my opinion, creating the midi version does have value. You will have a better chance of attracting a live performer, I believe, if you have a good midi-performance. You will achieve a greater connection with your own music in the process of creating the midi-performance, and might make changes as a result. This happens to me frequently. And finally there will be pieces that do not immediately attract a live performance, and you can at least get some satisfaction as a composer from hearing your music in midi. This will enable you to get feedback about your music, and also encourage you to keep at it and not give up.

Both of the pieces are very attractive. I enjoyed them.


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## and- (Apr 5, 2018)

Przemek K. said:


> Nice pieces. I really dig the first one


 Thank you!


Przemek K. said:


> ...I did a fair share of mockups for Chris with his solo instruments (some were my compositions some were existing pieces) already.


I know!!! I really liked your music for solo violin and solo viola, and I was extremely impressed with your mockups. They are incredible! It was, actually, your work that convinced me to buy these libraries.


Przemek K. said:


> Customize the settings within the instrument to suit a specific situation. Activate the speed (timemachine) feature where needed (can be automated). Great for speeding up/down vibrato, or the repetitions for example. Add additional notes to simulate either a pre attack or a release ( very short, and vary it with either short notes or even pizzicato) , draw some additional volume dropdowns specifically for the fake pre attacks ore releases.


This is great! Thank you!


Przemek K. said:


> Analyze the hell out of the real performance. Experiment a lot.


In your excellent mockups you were replicating performances that already happened. Do you feel that you can do replicate similar level of details in your mockup when you don't have a real performance as the reference?


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## and- (Apr 5, 2018)

Piano Pete said:


> The volume has less to do with blowing bubbles, but more of adding direction and phrasing to your lines; as in real life, you will shape each note differently depending on its context.
> 
> The use of volume to tame your tails and attacks is not really about riding it or even large-idea phrasing, but more of making sure that you do not have a sudden stop to the sample--even if it has a release tail. Think of it like micro-phrasing your attacks and releases, because this is what happens in real life-- although we do it in the midst of everything else, so it is something that we usually do not think about.


This is very clear, thanks.


Piano Pete said:


> I will be the first one to admit that I have a lot of room to improve my programming, but my advice: try not to let it get to you too much. There are enough what-if questions floating around our minds when we are composing, don't try to add more based on the programming


Hahaha, well said! I'll remember this next time.


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## Rob (Apr 6, 2018)

Actually I find your virtual versions quite good. They give a fair representation of what there caprices are... Some of the things that don't work so well are indeed inherent limitations of the library I think. If you are interested I could render them with the audio modeling viola, if you post the midi or a score...


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## Ben E (Apr 6, 2018)

and- said:


> That's bad news for me.  If the composition simply falls apart in the mockup version, then there is no point in making the mockup at all. On the other hand, I cannot expect all my new pieces to be played by musicians of this level.



I don't want you to think that my comment was criticizing your programming. It was more of a "philosophical" observation about how the two different recordings affected me personally. I'm not sure it would affect everyone the same way. I also think that if I were a string player I would have a better sense of what was going on compositionally when I heard your mockup. When I program solo string parts I have a hard time knowing what the violin is supposed to "do" exactly. I'll spend hours massaging a passage until it sounds dead-on to my ears, but when someone else hears it they give me advice on how to make it sound more real. "What?" I think, "Doesn't it _already_ sound real?"


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## Tatu (Apr 6, 2018)

These are really great, @and- !

Live versions put the mockups to shame, though.. I wonder which solo viola library each here would choose to mockup a good/complex solo performance?


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## Rob (Apr 6, 2018)

Tatu said:


> These are really great, @and- !
> 
> Live versions put the mockups to shame, though.. I wonder which solo viola library each here would choose to mockup a good/complex solo performance?


personally, as far as instrument's behavior goes I have no doubt the audiomodeling viola would perform better than the others...


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## Rob (Apr 6, 2018)

so, for the sake of comparison, here's how the AM viola would sound...

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/violafridmancaprice-mp3.12744/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 6, 2018)

and- said:


> Thank you! These are very nice words.
> 
> That's bad news for me.  If the composition simply falls apart in the mockup version, then there is no point in making the mockup at all. On the other hand, I cannot expect all my new pieces to be played by musicians of this level.



For me mockups are just for sketching out what you want done in a performance. Period.


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## Tatu (Apr 6, 2018)

Rob said:


> so, for the sake of comparison, here's how the AM viola would sound...


Oh hell that sounds good! Will check their stuff for sure, thanks!


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## Przemek K. (Apr 6, 2018)

and- said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I know!!! I really liked your music for solo violin and solo viola, and I was extremely impressed with your mockups. They are incredible! It was, actually, your work that convinced me to buy these libraries.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your kind words Now,regarding your other question: I'd say yes, but only because I did so many mockups already. But still, having a reference/live performance is always of great help.
There are just an incredible amount of nuances a good musician can pull out of his/her instrument, and if you try to simulate them with a VI you learn a LOT. Even analyzing a short performance of 2 notes can give you ideas on how to accomplish it with a VI, yeah and also lots of headaches as well.
Doing mockups is a great way to learn the strengths and especially weaknesses of a virtual instrument. Especially failing is a very important step.
If you only could see the different stages of my mockups...You would grow grey hair


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## Przemek K. (Apr 6, 2018)

Rob said:


> so, for the sake of comparison, here's how the AM viola would sound...
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/violafridmancaprice-mp3.12744/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Great example Rob. I like how the notes connect to each other. Thanks for sharing.


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## and- (Apr 6, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I preferred the live performance, but I also enjoyed your midi-performance.
> ...
> Both of the pieces are very attractive. I enjoyed them.


Thank you!


Paul T McGraw said:


> You will achieve a greater connection with your own music in the process of creating the midi-performance, and might make changes as a result. This happens to me frequently.


You are right, the same here. I cannot rely on my internal hearing/imagination 100%, and actually hearing the notes and the timbres helps me to compose better.

What I meant was that I put a lot of effort into this mockup, a lot _more_ effort than I need for completing the composition. The purpose was to have an audio file that I could use for presenting my music to others. If the composition cannot be heard from the mockup, then I have to do better.


Paul T McGraw said:


> And finally there will be pieces that do not immediately attract a live performance, and you can at least get some satisfaction as a composer from hearing your music in midi.


Very valid point! Mockups definitely help here!


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## and- (Apr 6, 2018)

Rob said:


> Actually I find your virtual versions quite good. They give a fair representation of what there caprices are...


Thank you. I've heard some of your mockups, and, coming from you, these words mean a lot! What I'm worried about is that, due to the limitations of my mockup, the impression from a "wow" piece will be "meh", and the piece will not be performed because of this.


Rob said:


> If you are interested I could render them with the audio modeling viola, if you post the midi or a score...


I couldn't really ask for it, because such job would probably take a lot of time and effort, but, of course, that would be fantastic! The sheet music can be downloaded here:
https://afridman.musicaneo.com/sheetmusic/sm-308384_caprice_no_1_for_viola_solo.html
https://afridman.musicaneo.com/sheetmusic/sm-301578_caprice_no_2_for_viola_solo.html



Rob said:


> so, for the sake of comparison, here's how the AM viola would sound...


By ear?! I'm impressed! And it does sound good!

Here is another performance of the first caprice. This one is, actually, a lot closer to how I imagined it would sound (in terms of articulations and dynamics).

This is a home recording and a cheap instrument, but this retired violist got some skill!!!  Also, notice *the vibrato on the open C string* (2:32 on the video), I never knew this was possible!!!


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## and- (Apr 6, 2018)

Piano Pete said:


> In my experience, very few non-musicians can truly hear the music through a mockup. Even fewer can hear the music, let alone the orchestration, through a piano sketch, so I would not lose sleep over it. Just try to get it as close as possible, and when the opportunities arise, put your stuff in front of real musicians or individuals with experience to evaluate where your composition, not programming, skills are at. Unless doing sound design, I do not consider these to be the same thing.


Another good point! You are probably right. Recently, I wrote a gigue for viola solo. Fortunately, it was performed and recorded very fast - so fast, that I never bothered to finish the mockup.  It has only happened once. I can only wish this was the norm.


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## and- (Apr 6, 2018)

Ben E said:


> I don't want you to think that my comment was criticizing your programming. It was more of a "philosophical" observation about how the two different recordings affected me personally.


Thank you for this clarification. Don't worry, I understood that you honestly described your emotional response to both versions. And it's very good for me to know what emotions my midi "performances" create. Also, you were extremely positive to the music itself - this was very nice for me to read (I'd rather be a good composer with poor MIDI programming skills than the other way around , so I perceived you comment as very positive). The reason I got worried is that, in your case, only the real performance created that very positive response I was hoping for when I was writing the music. In the mockup the notes didn't add app to something emotionally significant for you. I guess, I was extremely lucky that Alexey Bogorad decided to perform this music.


Ben E said:


> When I program solo string parts I have a hard time knowing what the violin is supposed to "do" exactly. I'll spend hours massaging a passage until it sounds dead-on to my ears, but when someone else hears it they give me advice on how to make it sound more real. "What?" I think, "Doesn't it _already_ sound real?"


Yes, we can only fix what we hear. For me, part of the problem is that I don't know how exactly a string player is going to perform the piece: where he will jump over a string, where he will change position, etc. Knowing these things would allow me to plant some imperfections into the mockup, but I'm too lazy (and not competent enough) to think about it: I just do fairy general playability check of the text (range, timbre, double stops, chords etc.)


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## and- (Apr 6, 2018)

Tatu said:


> These are really great, @and- !
> 
> Live versions put the mockups to shame, though.. I wonder which solo viola library each here would choose to mockup a good/complex solo performance?


Thank you! I think Chris Hein viola is very good (the mockups by *Przemek K* sound incredibly good to my ears), I'm just not using all its capabilities yet. What I like very much about this library is the fact that there are many versions of each note, and I can simply pick the one that is close enough. For me this is a simple and quick way to create the audio which is close enough to what I hear. On the other hand, what *Rob* shows with the audio modelling viola is impressive.


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## and- (Apr 7, 2018)

Przemek K. said:


> There are just an incredible amount of nuances a good musician can pull out of his/her instrument, and if you try to simulate them with a VI you learn a LOT.


I think , at this stage, the biggest limitation for me is the fact that I don't know how a real musician is going to play this: changing positions, jumping over a string, "landing" the bow from spiccato to detache/legato - in general, what imperfections are going to be present. Also, there is articulation (dynamics, vibrato) within a single note - I'm not so good at it. I'm listening to a sample, thinking: "Oh, this sounds pretty!" - and using it as is, or, at best, choosing another sample. This is why I asked whether you can program so well when you don't have the real performance to copy from. It's reassuring for me to know that you can.

Thank you very much for the tip about the time stretching and, in general, for the mindset recommendations, when programming performance with Chris Hein Solo Viola. I love the recorded vibrato there, and it's great for me to learn now how to vary it.


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## Przemek K. (Apr 9, 2018)

and- said:


> I think , at this stage, the biggest limitation for me is the fact that I don't know how a real musician is going to play this: changing positions, jumping over a string, "landing" the bow from spiccato to detache/legato - in general, what imperfections are going to be present. Also, there is articulation (dynamics, vibrato) within a single note - I'm not so good at it. I'm listening to a sample, thinking: "Oh, this sounds pretty!" - and using it as is, or, at best, choosing another sample. This is why I asked whether you can program so well when you don't have the real performance to copy from. It's reassuring for me to know that you can.
> 
> Thank you very much for the tip about the time stretching and, in general, for the mindset recommendations, when programming performance with Chris Hein Solo Viola. I love the recorded vibrato there, and it's great for me to learn now how to vary it.



Although it is important to know certain things regarding how a real musician would perform a certain passage for example, I think that with sample libraries one does not necessarily have to overthink things. Just take a piece of music (solo) at youtube and see if you can find different versions of it. You will see and hear that every musician performs it differently. Be it different tempo, mood, articulation... and so on. Having said that, have a blast doing mockups, and you will see improving yourself in no time... well almost no time

Here are three pieces I did for Chris last year for the solo violin, solo viola and solo cello which are my own compositions and were not performed by a violinist/violist/cellist.
What you hear is mostly out of the box, with way less tweaks compared to my mockups, and still can get decent results. Maybe these will give you some ideas. Enjoy.


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## and- (Apr 11, 2018)

*Przemek K.*

Thank you for the examples. Very helpful! Yes, you are right: they are less complex than your copies of the real performances, but nevertheless good and believable. After your suggestions, I can notice myself, what makes your mockup more realistic than mine.

As usual, very nice music! I really like your style.


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## Przemek K. (Apr 12, 2018)

Glad you like them and that I could be of some help at the very least.


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