# Contemporary Music Notation Template for Sibelius or Finale?



## Mundano

Hello,

i would like to ask the community if there is a way (software) or a template for contemporary notation (or twenty century music notation) in Sibelius of Finale Notes Editors, some how to work with non linear measures and systems, more like this:


----------



## Reactor.UK

OMG. I'm sure the question is a serious one to which somebody maybe able to answer. 

I'm just utterly bemused as I've never seen anything like it. Thankfully my poor little piano brain has yet to encounter such notation.


----------



## Daryl

Sibelius is not designed to work like this, so it is really time consuming. Finale can do this sort of thing better but is still not good.

TBH as this sort of notation has very little to do with mainstream music, you would be better off using a graphics editor.


----------



## jamwerks

For this kind of stuff, most people use Score afaik, then eventually import into a graphics program to finish. Sibelius as said above is really the least apt for this.


----------



## Maximvs

The traditional notation parts can be created with Sibelius or another notation software but all the rest of the graphics have to be created in a graphic software and then everything can be put together.


----------



## Mundano

Thank you very much for your responses. 
It seems that the state of the development of the musical notation has stopped at the doors of the twenty century, and the mainstream music at the TWENTY ONE century remains producing sounds within the traditional western scale system...... whole tempered scale, A B A form, Bass, Drums, Harmony (keys, guits., synths, strings, whatsoever), Leads (melody=>vocals, etc.). Our ears falled into a vicious circle, overcrowding of music standards, mp3...


----------



## foxby

Hi Mundano,

Actually , if you are on Mac platform, you might want to check NOTEABILITY Pro designed by UBC. Its conceptualization is pretty close to what are you describing (+ connects to MAX MSP, Antescofo and some of the IRCAM electronic music packages)
Hope it helps,


----------



## timprebble

For anyone interested there is an incredible collection of graphic scores here:
http://llllllll.co/t/experimental-music-notation-resources/149


----------



## Mundano

foxby said:


> Hi Mundano,
> 
> Actually , if you are on Mac platform, you might want to check NOTEABILITY Pro designed by UBC. Its conceptualization is pretty close to what are you describing (+ connects to MAX MSP, Antescofo and some of the IRCAM electronic music packages)
> Hope it helps,



excellent contribution!


----------



## Mundano

timprebble said:


> For anyone interested there is an incredible collection of graphic scores here:
> http://llllllll.co/t/experimental-music-notation-resources/149



excellent contribution also!


----------



## foxby

Hi again Mundano,

If you like MAX MSP, please also check BACH !

http://www.bachproject.net/examples

It's more than a score editor and requires a bit of coding, but it does amazing things in combination with MAX.

All best


----------



## ptram

This is a graphic score, whose concept is a cross between music and graphic composing. There would be little sense to make it with a pure notation program. A rapidograph would work way better, and be more in tune with the idea behind it.

Notation programs, like NoteAbility, or even Finale and Sibelius, can import graphic files, so you can create mixed traditional/graphic scores, but at a quite limited extent.

Paolo


----------



## JimmyPoppa

Mundano said:


> Thank you very much for your responses.
> It seems that the state of the development of the musical notation has stopped at the doors of the twenty century, and the mainstream music at the TWENTY ONE century remains producing sounds within the traditional western scale system...... whole tempered scale, A B A form, Bass, Drums, Harmony (keys, guits., synths, strings, whatsoever), Leads (melody=>vocals, etc.). Our ears falled into a vicious circle, overcrowding of music standards, mp3...



I disagree. Musical notation has not stopped developing, as you have shown with this score and many others have shown. Nor has the advance of using a vast range of sound and pitch options stopped. These things are growing all the time. The fact that some commercial notation programs are not designed to do this easily, or at all, has nothing to do with the development of notation itself.

If you have to draw the notation by hand, you're just doing what composers did for hundreds of years before the creation of computers. Software like these products will always be behind the evolutionary process of creative individuals doing new and different things.

In many fields, there are people who might try to develop software to allow them to do new things they have in mind but those are not commercial products. If you have something new and different you want to do, first you have to conceive it and perhaps find a way to execute some version of it, often by hand, and then find someone to develop more convenient ways to do it, such as computer software.

The same is true with 'musical' sound. Non traditional sounds are everywhere. They are in movies, games, Pop/Rap/Rock, commercials,etc. They are all around in the modern world. People are hearing, accepting and assimilating a range of soundscapes unlike any in history.

Many of these are being created directly with technology and not being 'notated' in a traditional way because there's no need for it. The purpose of written notation is as instructions to aid musicians in executing a creator's intention. In the modern world, in many cases that's simply not a requirement.

Programs like Sibelius and Finale are commercial products designed for a specific purpose and intended to meet the needs of the mainstream who write and play in a particular way. They simply are not conceived for the purpose you have in mind.

However that has nothing to do with the evolution of musical notation or the sonic options available, which, IMO, have not stopped developing at all. In fact, they are evolving every day.

Be Well,

Jimmy


----------



## Rodney Money

My music notation needs are pretty standard, but I did have to write this for my mallet players last year:


----------



## Mundano

JimmyPoppa said:


> I disagree. Musical notation has not stopped developing, as you have shown with this score and many others have shown. Nor has the advance of using a vast range of sound and pitch options stopped. These things are growing all the time. The fact that some commercial notation programs are not designed to do this easily, or at all, has nothing to do with the development of notation itself.
> 
> If you have to draw the notation by hand, you're just doing what composers did for hundreds of years before the creation of computers. Software like these products will always be behind the evolutionary process of creative individuals doing new and different things.
> 
> In many fields, there are people who might try to develop software to allow them to do new things they have in mind but those are not commercial products. If you have something new and different you want to do, first you have to conceive it and perhaps find a way to execute some version of it, often by hand, and then find someone to develop more convenient ways to do it, such as computer software.
> 
> The same is true with 'musical' sound. Non traditional sounds are everywhere. They are in movies, games, Pop/Rap/Rock, commercials,etc. They are all around in the modern world. People are hearing, accepting and assimilating a range of soundscapes unlike any in history.
> 
> Many of these are being created directly with technology and not being 'notated' in a traditional way because there's no need for it. The purpose of written notation is as instructions to aid musicians in executing a creator's intention. In the modern world, in many cases that's simply not a requirement.
> 
> Programs like Sibelius and Finale are commercial products designed for a specific purpose and intended to meet the needs of the mainstream who write and play in a particular way. They simply are not conceived for the purpose you have in mind.
> 
> However that has nothing to do with the evolution of musical notation or the sonic options available, which, IMO, have not stopped developing at all. In fact, they are evolving every day.
> 
> Be Well,
> 
> Jimmy



In the way you argument it i agree with you.. maybe i was complaining about the limitations of a software that doesn't recognize other notation possibilities already used in 20th century..


----------



## JimmyPoppa

Mundano said:


> In the way you argument it i agree with you.. maybe i was complaining about the limitations of a software that doesn't recognize other notation possibilities already used in 20th century..



Yes, I understand what you're saying. 

For software developers though, realistically, how would they do it? The graphic possibilities are practically infinite. Theoretically, you could do 3D, multi-color, infinite angles, directions, shades of light and dark, changes with time, and on and on forever.

I can't think of a reasonable way for a developer even to get started. No matter what they did, someone would feel left out. And, unless there is a potential for a commercial payoff, how could any company spend the time, energy and money to come up with a truly satisfying program.

It would be really cool if something were possible but... It's certainly beyond anything I can see.

Be Well,

Jimmy


----------



## JJP

There's also the issue of this type of notation being nonstandard. It is used by some contemporary composers, but there is no one who can sight read it. It requires careful study and is not practical for most situations to clearly convey a musical idea in an instantly performable way.

There are plenty of artistic reasons to notate in unconventional ways, but in business pragmatism rules the day. Developers need to be able to sell a certain amount notation product to justify the cost of development. There just isn't enough demand or usefulness in this type of notation for one of the major developers to spend the time to implement it.

Even then, there are the issues JimmyPoppa described.


----------



## Mundano

JimmyPoppa said:


> how could any company spend the time, energy and money to come up with a truly satisfying program.





JJP said:


> There just isn't enough demand or usefulness in this type of notation for one of the major developers to spend the time to implement it.



yes and yes guys. I understand this very well, .... but at the end products are being developed always because of the needs of the artists putting their demands on the very breaking the rules everyday. For example look at @Sonokinetic "tutti vox" interface or GUI.



Spoiler: Tutti Vox



*TUTTI VOX CORE*
*Interface*
Below is the main interface for Tutti Vox Core. The different coloured banks can be loaded with different types of vocal effects. From top to bottom: *Glissandi & Clusters*, *Vocal Effects*, *Atonal Beds* and *Tonal Beds*. At the top of the interface there are settings for *Microphone Position*. At the bottom of the interface are FX: *Filter*, *EQ*, *Reverb* and *Delay*.









*Banks & Fields*
The interface for Tutti Vox Core has 4 differently coloured banks: Glissandi, Vocal FX, Beds Atonal and Beds Tonal.There are 13 fields within these banks, each of which can be loaded with one phrase. These are assigned key triggers, indicated at the bottom of each field. Each field also displays a number of icons which depict different characteristics of the chosen phrase. These include a visual representation of the sound, length, looping and gender (depending on phrase chosen). The 4 different banks have different icons, depending on what type of sounds they play. At the bottom of each field is shown the MIDI trigger key for that field / phrase.















Tanken Xenakis with his granular theory or what other composers have made at the 20th century with the serial music, we could say this influences had helped, for example, the piano roll interface of sequencers and sequencers at all to take form (in general - i don't want to discuss it deeply here).
What i want to say is all that you have already said, if there were a remarkable necessity of a new notation, someone would be surely developing it... But now my question: If like in "2001 Odyssey" someone TODAY would want to write a score _á la_ Ligeti?? It would be necessary to have a writing team for this work or to have a nice program


----------

