# Alternatives to Soundflower and Jack OS



## Waywyn (Jul 5, 2007)

Hi all,

I just wanted to ask around if someone just knows any other alternative to Jack OS and Soundflower?

Are there any other programs which can route back audio into the sequencer and not sharing memory with the sequencer host (like Bidule in Rewire mode e.g.)

Soundflower just starts crackling after a few minutes of use and Jack OS and Kontakt 2 harmonize like cat and mouse. K2 in Jack OSX takes up to 2-3 minutes to even start up, when Jack is activated.

Anyone?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 5, 2007)

Soundflower works well for me - no crackling at all.

But there are now three alternatives: the Apogee Symphony card, I think all the RMEs but definitely the FF44 and 800, and the just released software for the Metric Halo boxes have a loopback mode that lets you do the routing in hardware.


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## Marsdy (Jul 5, 2007)

Nick

What about the Apogee Ensemble?


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## Waywyn (Jul 5, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jul 05 said:


> Soundflower works well for me - no crackling at all.
> 
> But there are now three alternatives: the Apogee Symphony card, I think all the RMEs but definitely the FF44 and 800, and the just released software for the Metric Halo boxes have a loopback mode that lets you do the routing in hardware.



Sorry, I ment you had problems with Jack OS ...


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## Ashermusic (Jul 5, 2007)

Waywyn @ Thu Jul 05 said:


> Hmm, that's really strange, some people have it, some not.
> 
> Could you maybe describe what are your settings concering Soundflower?
> Buffersize of Soundflower and Audiocard. According to your signature, I guess you use Logic
> ...



It is indeed peculiar. I have an Echo Layla 3g (optical out to a LavryBlack DA10) and it is an Aggregate Device with Soundflower. In the Audio Midi Setup in the Aggregate Device manger the Layla is first in the list with Clock checked.

My buffer in the Logic Drivers panel is generally set to 128 while recording which I switch to 256 and sometimes even 512 when mixing.

Could it be a Cubase related issue?


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## John DeBorde (Jul 5, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jul 05 said:


> Soundflower works well for me - no crackling at all.
> 
> But there are now three alternatives: the Apogee Symphony card, I think all the RMEs but definitely the FF44 and 800, and the just released software for the Metric Halo boxes have a loopback mode that lets you do the routing in hardware.



straying OT here, but do you know a good solution for getting a bunch of lightpipe channels into a symphony system, with a fairly minimal amount of A-D-A conversion? Coagulate...er, uh aggregate it with one of those m-audio mega lightpipe boxes, perhaps?

I'd be curious if anyone has done this and if aggregating a symphony system added a hit to the apogee driver which is s'posed to be mui efficient.

dang it's hot today!

-john


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 5, 2007)

Marsdy, the Ensemble doesn't have that feature. It sounds great - I'm probably buying the one I reviewed - but the loopback mode is only on the Symphony card.


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## Waywyn (Jul 6, 2007)

Thanks all,

I also posted this problem on the cycling '74 forum (Soundflower dev) and got the following message from a guy:

"It sounds like a bug related to 32-bit floating point resolution. 
Exactly the same happens if you want to navigate within a soundfile 
which exceeds the duration of about 6 minutes...

It should give the developers enough hints to fix it..."

Hm, if that's the error hopefully the developer could fix it ... and if not, it might get fixed on 64 bit systems? ...or maybe because of 64 bit we will have this problem occur twice as fast :mrgreen:


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## JohnnyMarks (Jul 6, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jul 05 said:


> Marsdy, the Ensemble doesn't have that feature. It sounds great - I'm probably buying the one I reviewed - but the loopback mode is only on the Symphony card.


Nick, would loopback work with just the Symphony card (and Maestro) but no Rosetta 200/800 etc.?

If so, a tempting addition to the Ensemble I"m using...maybe get a Rosetta later on.

Thanks.


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## Marsdy (Jul 6, 2007)

JohnnyMarks @ Fri 06 Jul said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jul 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Marsdy, the Ensemble doesn't have that feature. It sounds great - I'm probably buying the one I reviewed - but the loopback mode is only on the Symphony card.
> ...



Ditto that question, that's a nice idea.

Presumably the Symphony needs to "see" an I/O box to work though.

Why don't the likes of Apogee and Digi do cheap ADAT interfaces??? :evil:


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## JohnnyMarks (Jul 6, 2007)

Marsdy @ Fri Jul 06 said:


> JohnnyMarks @ Fri 06 Jul said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jul 05 said:
> ...


Also worth investigating this question with regards to the RME HDSPe just out...$400, half or less the price of the Symphony.


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## JohnnyMarks (Jul 6, 2007)

Just got off the phone with Apogee tech support (Jay). Loopback does work with no Rosetta etc. connected. Caveats:

Ensemble uses a different driver from Symphony; both on the same machine is a non-starter currently. So you would need to run Symphony alongside a non-Emsemble device/driver (Lightbridge perhaps) to get audio out (f you don't have a Rosetta), and...

Some applications (forgot to ask which, have a call in, sorry...) have had trouble seeing the vBus (loopback) channels.

Implementing vBus for Ensemble was considered and rejected due to concerns implementing it via Firewire.


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## Marsdy (Jul 6, 2007)

Oh well. It was worth a try.


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## JohnnyMarks (Jul 6, 2007)

Posted on the RME forum and Matthias Carstens replied a couple hours later: mixing is done on hardware in the Digi/Multiface, so no-go doing loopback with HDSPe alone.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 6, 2007)

"Implementing vBus for Ensemble was considered and rejected due to concerns implementing it via Firewire."

Hm. I'm not sure that's a decision I would have made. But you could just connect lightpipe out to in and do it that way - assuming you don't need the lightpipe for anything else. I personally have MOTU hardware for digital inputs, so that would work fine for me.


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## rob morsberger (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi Nick,
just following up on that òÚ    \=hÚ    \=iÚ    \=jÚ¡   \=kÚ¡   \=lÚ¡   \=mÚ¡   \=nÚ¡   \=oÚ¡   \=pÚ¡   \=qÚ¡   \=rÚ¡   \=sÚ¡   \=tÚ¡   \=uÚ¡   \=vÚ¡   \=wÚ¡   \=xÚ¡   \=yÚ¡   \=zÚ¡   \={Ú¡   \=|Ú¡   \=}Ú¡   \=~Ú¡   \=Ú¡   \=€Ú¡   \=Ú¡   \=‚Ú¡   \=ƒÚ¡   \=„Ú¡   \=…Ú¡   \=†Ú¡   \=‡Ú¡   \=ˆÚ¡   \=‰Ú¡   \=ŠÚ¡   \=‹Ú¡   \=ŒÚ¡   \=Ú¡   \=ŽÚ¡   \=Ú¡   \=Ú¡   \=‘Ú¡   \=’Ú¡   \=“Ú¡   \=”Ú¡   \=•Ú¡   \=–Ú¡   \=—Ú¡   \=˜Ú¡   \=™Ú¡   \=šÚ¡   \=›Ú¡   \=œÚ¡   \=Ú¡   \=žÚ¡   \=ŸÚ¡   \= Ú¡   \=¡Ú¡   \=¢Ú¡   \=£Ú¡   \=¤Ú¡   \=¥Ú¡   \=¦Ú¢   \=§Ú¢   \=¨Ú¢   \=©Ú¢   \=ªÚ¢   \=«Ú¢   \=¬Ú¢   \=­Ú¢   \=®Ú¢   \=¯Ú¢


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## José Herring (Jul 8, 2007)

Jeez guys,

I wouldn't put my trust in any unusual solutions especially on a machine that is going to be used under pressure of deadlines.

What I've seen work consistently on a Mac is having a solid audio interface then light piping in any additional machines. Of course you'll have to add a sound card to each outboard PC, but having already spent some considerable about on a top of the line Mac the additional $300 shouldn't be a problem.

Why trust flaky 3rd party software and weird internal routing. Just do the tried and true.

I was all ready to hop over to a MacPro but after reading how many hoops you have to jump through to get a multiple machine setup happening......I'm having a hard time seeing the benefit.


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## rob morsberger (Jul 8, 2007)

Jose,
after I look into this a bit more I may end up agreeing with you. However there are compelling reasons to explore this a bit. For one thing, it's easier on the wallet. For another, it seems appropriate to use up all those resources sitting in my mac, outside Logic, which would easily replace what I had been using a second machine for...and then some. A one machine setup is kinder to the environment. Etc etc...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 8, 2007)

"Why trust flaky 3rd party software and weird internal routing. Just do the tried and true."

Jose, I've actually found this unusual, weird, and flakey solution to be more solid in some cases than hosting the V.I. inside Logic. Try it when you get a Mac - you'll see.

Rob - yes, that's right: an aggregate device.


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## José Herring (Jul 8, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jul 08 said:


> "Why trust flaky 3rd party software and weird internal routing. Just do the tried and true."
> 
> Jose, I've actually found this unusual, weird, and flakey solution to be more solid in some cases than hosting the V.I. inside Logic. Try it when you get a Mac - you'll see.
> 
> Rob - yes, that's right: an aggregate device.



I host VI's inside of Cubase all the time and it's smooth with no problems at all. Would it be any different on a Mac?

I'm not trying to start arguments here. I really need to change computers by October and I'm seriously considering switching back to Mac.

Is it a Logic thing or does OSX have a hard time dealing with VI plugins? I was at a friends place once doing a gig and he had Protools. We where using Kontakt2 and also using EWQLSC and protools was going down. I figured it was just him, but perhaps not.

Jose


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## rob morsberger (Jul 8, 2007)

Hey Jose...I can't speak for Pro Tools, but no problems here with OSX or Logic...both very stable and running happily. Just looking for ways to max out the machine and there has been a lot of interesting discussion about options here as well as in Nick's mag.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 8, 2007)

Jose, you're not arguing, you're discussing.

And I'm arguing....



Seriously, the main reason to run programs outside the DAW is simply that you can access a lot more RAM on a single machine. But most programs (other than GigaStudio, which of course isn't Mac) get a little sluggish as you approach their RAM limits. So running large sample libraries outside them can be a good idea.

Plus you don't have to load them again when you reload a session. But it has nothing to do with Logic being unstable. It isn't (although like all complicated programs it has quirks).

I can't comment on NI stuff inside PT - I don't know.


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## José Herring (Jul 8, 2007)

Interesting.

What about using a VST host and using two soundcards on one machine? One soundcard can be used for your DAW the other used for the VST host that get's routed back hardwired to your main sound card and back into your DAW? Is that what you guys are talking about with the Symphony card?

Also there's an app called Plog bidule (sp). Could that do midi and audio routing. I tried it and it was pretty stable.

Jose


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## re-peat (Jul 8, 2007)

Absolutely nothing wrong with, or flaky about, Soundflower on my machine (a dual 2.5, running OX 10.4.8 and Logic). In fact, it's brought a major change to the way I work now, and all for the better: like Nick says, the ability to run sampleplayers outside of the DAW can make a huge difference: songs load a million times faster, switching between songs is no longer the tedious experience it can often be and overall, the system spins much more happily. I've got to deal with a bit of latency on the incoming audio, yes, but not to a degree where it spoils the fun.
In short: I really like Soundflower (and again: thanks Nick, for suggesting I'd try it out).

_


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## Marsdy (Jul 9, 2007)

josejherring @ Mon 09 Jul said:


> Is it a Logic thing or does OSX have a hard time dealing with VI plugins? I was at a friends place once doing a gig and he had Protools. We where using Kontakt2 and also using EWQLSC and protools was going down. I figured it was just him, but perhaps not.
> 
> Jose



It's a Pro Tools thing.

K2/Kompakt is hopeless in Pro Tools, absolutely useless junk. Same if you run Logic in TDM mode, K2/Kompakt just crash consistently.

Pro Tools is very inefficient with VIs anyway. We stopped using it for music work and just use it for audio post now.

I'm finding Logic and the AU format rock solid fingers crossed, touch wood.


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## Waywyn (Jul 9, 2007)

Marsdy @ Mon Jul 09 said:


> We stopped using it for music work and just use it for audio post now.



Without bashing at Digidesign, but I think ProTools was never good for anything else than just pure audio post or recording


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## José Herring (Jul 9, 2007)

Now I'm starting to see the picture. The problems I've seen have invovled both Protools and Logic in TDM mode. I talked to an engineer several years ago that suggested I get into a Protool system with Logic as the "frontend". So I checked it out. >8o I don't care how much money somebody has I just can't see wasting it like that. 4 or 5 crashes in one session. It was totally ridiculous.

I was checking out Plogue Bidule for routing. It looks like it may allow you to rewire K2 to a host sequencer. I'm not sure but it might be a solution.


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## Mike Greene (Jul 9, 2007)

Marsdy @ Mon Jul 09 said:


> . . . Same if you run Logic in TDM mode, K2/Kompakt just crash consistently.


I run Logic with TDM and it's about as stable as most regular Logic rigs I've seen. Maybe a crash a day on average . . . which may seem like a lot, but I make my system do some pretty complicated stuff. Kontakt never seems to be a problem for me.

The key for me was to stop using ESB (DTDM) and instead use regular Core Audio (along with TDM.) I had to buy a Core Audio interface and lightpipe it to my Digi intereface, but it works great.

Mind you, I'm not recommending anyone use TDM with Logic if you don't already have have the Digi hardware. For me, I'm already too invested in Digi (three Digi HD rigs) to turn back. But if I were starting from scratch, I'd go straight Logic (or Performer.) The extra power and practically no latency is nice, though.


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## Synesthesia (Jul 9, 2007)

K2 is ok in Tools here, but there is the occasional wierdness.

I have sessions running with various VIs, three K2s and 4 Altiverbs, and I have to restart after closing that session or the *next* session will have problems.

FWIW the reason I went tools was having HD3 you can get serious mix sessions happening with loads of incredible plugins and not worry about running out of resources.

I guess its like having three extra G5s loaded up inside your main rig as all the processing is done on the HD process cards..

and I still use Tools for my sequencing now, because I like to be able to immediately switch my head into mix mode while I'm halfway through writing, and vice versa.

Also - no other program comes close yet for quick and easy waveform editing. Now if Logic 8 has it nailed.... who knows! :mrgreen: 

Cheers

Paul


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## JohnnyMarks (Jul 9, 2007)

I've used DP and Logic, and currently Pro Tools. I'd like to know what people are doing MIDI-wise with these other programs that can't be done with Pro Tools. Any elaborate MIDI routing or processing I need is provided by Bidule (which works splendidly as a wrapped VST), though it doesn't seem I'm using Bidule any more now than in the past with these other DAWs (maybe because I'm so into Bidule and it's been my MIDI "go to" for a year and a half).

PT is a superbly designed program. The majority of the planet's post, broadcast, and studio production relies on Pro Tools, and this is evident in the product. Real user design, real QA, real platform qualification, real documentation. 

This approach extends to the MIDI implementation also. Features have been added over time with a measured approach (see above), and while PT was at one time not an able composer's platform, it certainly is now.

VI's have been another story. Given the predominance of other DAWs for MIDI use, the RTAS port is likely the last priority on developers' lists. The performance of K2 in Pro Tools a good example in my experience. You always end up with ol' snap, crackle, pop. PITA.

However, the AIR thing turns this upside down. You couldn't crash the Structure beta 2, and the CPU meters barely whimper. Strike, Velvet, Xpand, Hybrid...fantastic. I'd worry about being locked in but these are all world class...best in class probably in the case of Structure and Strike. And the flip-side of "locked in" is that AIR has the luxury of a single format, RTAS, and the people writing all the DAW code are next door - result being these products are integrated and work very, very well. With Pro Tools on the cusp of growth as a MIDI platform, other developers will up their RTAS game also.

Pro Tools, Structure, Bidule, Redmatica - The Future. Mine, anyway. :D

P.S. Flame away! 

P.P.S. Not really. Please?


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## José Herring (Jul 9, 2007)

No flame. Just honest discussion about the pro's and cons of all systems.

Having worked on PT7 I can say that the instability of K2 was a big issue. Especially during a time crunch. Personally I use K2 for all my samples. I know it well (or well enough) and the thought of spending any more time learning an other sampler when this one works so well is out of the question.

So handling of VI's is a major issue as far as a DAW is concerned. So far PT's in my experience fell way short.

Sure most audio post and most recording studios use PT. But they also don't do extensive sequencing. For composers it's completely different. We do little recording and sequence tons.

PT has it's place for sure. And I need to get into it if for anything else the ease of transfer of files to that system. But to be quite honest as a composer I never saw the appeal of the program. Even with its enhanced midi handling it still feels like you're working in a audio app that has midi capabilities rather than a DAW built around the idea of ease of creation of original music. 

All these things are subjective of course and anything that anybody is doing to create works of musical art are all valid.

Jose


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## JohnnyMarks (Jul 9, 2007)

josejherring @ Mon Jul 09 said:


> Even with its enhanced midi handling it still feels like you're working in a audio app that has midi capabilities rather than a DAW built around the idea of ease of creation of original music. Jose



Pretty clear they don't want new features to disturb their interface model - which historically began as audio only. So as you say, it's always going to feel like...Pro Tools. But really, I haven't found it less capable for writing because of it - just blessedly consistent.

DP, for example, has lots of nice features for scoring and MIDI, but I was always chasing around that program getting things done. If I had more patience I'd no doubt get more out of these other programs.


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## Mike Greene (Jul 9, 2007)

JohnnyMarks @ Mon Jul 09 said:


> . . . I'd like to know what people are doing MIDI-wise with these other programs that can't be done with Pro Tools.
> . . .
> 
> PT is a superbly designed program.
> ...


You're an idiot! Only a moron would have those opinions!

:mrgreen: 

There are a few things about ProTools that are still deal-breakers for me. Possibly some have been fixed, so please let me know!

1. Track names can't be very long, especially when you make the tracks small. Sounds trivial, but this bugs the heck out of me.

2. I don't think you can copy and paste MIDI "chunks" or "regions" (defined blocks) like in all the other sequencers. You can copy a bunch of notes, but not those big blobs that keep all the notes on the right beats. Whenever I copy and pste MIDI in ProTools, notes end up on the wrong beats.

3. If I double click on a MIDI track, I don't get a separate piano roll editor window. I understand that I can just make the track "Jumbo" sized, but it's not the same thing.

4. There are indeed some great new RTAS instruments, especially the Digi ones you named. But I still MUST have some of my old favorites. Stylus RMX, for instance, took a long time before it was stable with ProTools. EWQL Play doesn't work at all yet. (GòÛo   \iÖÛo   \i×Ûo   \iØÛo   \iÙÛo   \iÚÛo   \iÛÛo   \iÜÛo   \iÝÛo   \iÞÛo   \ißÛo   \iàÛo   \iáÛo   \iâÛo   \iãÛo   \iäÛo   \iåÛo   \iæÛo   \içÛo   \ièÛo   \iéÛo   \iêÛo   \iëÛo   \iìÛo   \iíÛo   \iîÛo   \iïÛo   \iðÛo   \iñÛo   \iòÛo   \ióÛo   \iôÛo   \iõÛo   \iöÛo   \i÷Ûo   \iøÛo   \iùÛo   \iúÛo   \iûÛo   \iüÛo   \iýÛo   \iþÛo   \iÿÛo   \j Ûo   \jÛo   \jÛo   \jÛo   \jÛo   \jÛo   \jÛo   \jÛo   \jÛo   \j	Ûo   \j
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## rob morsberger (Jul 9, 2007)

thanks...
feeling encouraged...
tinkering...now I can get lights to go on in kontakt player promptly...I even got nice sound coming out....but in the wrong channel...very confusing...still...progess....feverishly leaves message on Batzdorf's cell....tinkering some more....this could be so cool....


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## rob morsberger (Jul 10, 2007)

hey thanks a mill...I'll fuss with this a bit more in a while. Great info abt the external instrument object..brilliance...but I was really having probs with the IAC midi...setup just as you described. Worked fine if I set KP to receive on a unitor channel directly.
And routing in PCI424 was wonky, even though I have used this for years and thought I knew what I was doing (thought being the operative word!).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 10, 2007)

Rob, the MIDI problem is almost certainly a loop. You have to go into the click and ports Environment layer and replace the Sum cable from the Input object with individual cables from your physical MIDI interface - in other words you're disconnecting the IAC MIDI cables, since you don't want the MIDI you're sending K2 coming back into Logic.


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## re-peat (Jul 10, 2007)

Rob,

I'm not sure if this applies to your particular setup/situation, but BBB-users have got to make sure that the IAC Bus 1 (in the 'Physical Input'-object) is DISCONNECTED from the 'To Sequencer'-object (we're in the Logic Environment, as you might have quessed) in order to avoid midi-loops and other nasty problems.
By default, the Physical Input-object is summed into the sequencer. To disconnect the IAC Bus, you have to delete the cable which starts from the 'SUM'-triangle (the uppermost one) and then manually re-cable all the inputs which you *do* use (in my example below, that's the first port of my midi-interface and the three Edirol-ports). Very important this.








_


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## rob morsberger (Jul 10, 2007)

you guys are the best...THANKS...I'm sure that's the prob and I would never have figured it out without help. Great!


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## rob morsberger (Jul 24, 2007)

Been too busy to work on this but just tinkered a bit more and here's my rather lame 
progress report. 
The midi thing is solved thanks to Nick and repeat. Brilliance.
However, I am still not able to route audio back into Logic correctly. I have two MOTU boxes, want to set up loopbacks with lightpipe. I can do this fine with outputs in Logic, but with KP as a standalone I can only get it to come into bank A (outputs 1-8). KP SEES all the other outputs, I can configure them, but audio isn't making it into the box.
I'm sure this is a simple thing but for now that's where I'm at.

Again, many thanks.


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## rob morsberger (Jul 24, 2007)

Just to be tiresome...still having this problem. It has to be a simple thing. I SO want
to get this to work!
Let's say I have 32 outputs configured in my MOTU setup. I can access all of them from within Logic. But in the standalone Kontakt Player I can only successfully route outputs 1-8. If I configure higher outputs, Kontakt looks happy and is lighting up happily...but no audio is getting routed through the MOTU box.
What is missing here??!


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## rob morsberger (Jul 24, 2007)

ha! you'll never get rid of me now...
so it's a Kontakt Player thing...got routing working fine with other standalones eg
Stormdrum Intakt. Can anyone tell me what I'm failing to do with KP?


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## rob morsberger (Jul 29, 2007)

So I just installed Kontakt and everything is working great. I'm running it as a standalone outside Logic. It's receiving midi no probs, and sending back into Logic on any of 16 stereo channels using the lightpipe loopback on my 2 Motu boxes. I'm really stoked. Thank you again, Nick and repeat, for all the help. (the routing problem I was having with the Kontakt Player was something particular to that app I never did figure out, but who cares?)
What's great about this is that I will be able to have a very full orchestra pallet on one machine. With Kontakt running outside Logic, I can say goodbye to my ailing gigaPC.
Indeed, this setup is equivalent to several gigaPCs, all on one machine.
No disrepect to giga, which I loved and which served me well.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 29, 2007)

Kyule.


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