# Gearslutz Has Decided to Change Its Name



## R. Soul

It's official.
The Gearslutz name is no more.
In an interview the founder Jules Standen mentions that they will change the name.









Gearspace.com - View Single Post - A message from Gearslutz.com


Post 15241798 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.



www.gearslutz.com


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## Mike Greene

Wow! I honestly didn't see that coming. This is certainly a worthy topic, and the other thread made its point (thank you everyone, for your patience with that,) so I do hereby officially declare this thread open to all genders. Ready … go! 

The Ladies-Only thread is still open for women who may prefer to post there. (Or of course here is fine.) I know I'm not alone in finding those posts valuable.

I do have one request for this thread. In topics like this, there are certain people who become very aggressive with their opinions. And there are those who repeat themselves a lot. I’d like to keep this thread out of the Drama Zone, so please post accordingly. Thanks!


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## davidanthony

Pleased to see it. Never particularly cared for the name myself and now I'll be able to link non-audio people to the forum without needing to explain why I'm sending them a URL with "slutz" in it.


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## styledelk

Now I can visit there with the same sheepishness I have visiting here, just feeling like an amateur amongst greats rather than a hive of villainy. Except for the Show Me Your D...esk thread. Different sheepishness there.


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## shponglefan

I'm fine with this. While the site's name was definitely memorable, it was also unprofessional. I can see changing it for that reason alone.


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## MartinH.

So will it be changed to GearStudz now? 
JUST KIDDING!


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## chrisr

My wife is more offended by the collective term "ladies" @Mike Greene. She finds it patronising, in the true sense of the word. I suspect the women who were allowed to post over on the other thread were too polite to point it out to you.

best,
Chris


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## Kevinside

Hmm, i am and ever will be a Gearslut...but ok, if its not adequate today, then change the name... It doesn´t matter... The community there will stay as i will be a part of this great community...


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## gamma-ut

They did create a logo and redirects for Gearsz.com, which continue to work so that might be the simplest option compared to a totally new name.


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## MaxOctane

Happy to hear it. The name right now is super cringey. I'm just waiting for my daughters to look over my shoulder one day and wonder why daddy has 10 *slutz* tabs open.


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## Polkasound

When I first stumbled across the GearSlutz site, the name did seem a little oddly crass for such a well-known site, but I caught on to the concept and within a few days, didn't think anything of it. But new people are discovering the site every day and some may be having the same initial reaction I did.

I think the name GearSlutz could still be perfectly fitting for a smaller or more niche site, but a site as large and popular as GearSlutz would probably do well to adopt a more universally-acceptable, innocuous name.


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## bill5

To nobody's surprise, the monster that is rampant political correctness stretches its tentacles out ever farther  Whatever - I don't go there or avoid it because of the name, least of all one that was a silly play on words. I suspect if you polled the people who go there, 99%ish aren't at all bothered by it.


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## davidson

I'm still going to refer to it as gearslutz. Fight me.


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## el-bo

bill5 said:


> To nobody's surprise, the monster that is rampant political correctness stretches its tentacles out ever farther  Whatever - I don't go there or avoid it because of the name, least of all one that was a silly play on words. I suspect if you polled the people who go there, 99%ish aren't at all bothered by it.


It's not a surprise, but not because of so-called "rampant political correctness". Jules gave a few examples that made total sense, aside from the potential offense.

I didn't read any of it over at GS and only saw it filtered through this site. However, it didn't seem that anyone was really overtly offended. The most dominant sentiment seemed to be that it was just a bit too crass and teenage-edgy; certainly not a name befitting one of the largest music-tech sites on the internet.

And if it is true that 99% aren't bothered, then it's likely just as true that the same percentage won't be upset by the change. Plenty of places on the internet for that 1% to get an edgy fix


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## chillbot

el-bo said:


> And if it is true that 99% aren't bothered, then it's likely just as true that the same percentage won't be upset by the change.


This is solid logic.


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## ism

bill5 said:


> To nobody's surprise, the monster that is rampant political correctness stretches its tentacles out ever farther  Whatever - I don't go there or avoid it because of the name, least of all one that was a silly play on words. I suspect if you polled the people who go there, 99%ish aren't at all bothered by it.


And yet, if you listen to the posts on other thread (saved from being massively overwhelmed in sheer volume of male pontification only through extremely aggressive moderation), the comments are uniformly thoughtful, nuanced, and express very personal experience. Moreover, they consistently recognize the highly contextual nature of the question, and don't pretend to be making any universal political pronouncements, merely expressing personal views.

You can personally disagree with any or all of the views expressed of course. But I don't see how you could dismiss *any* of the sentiment expressed as "rampant political correctness".

In any event, the question isn't whether 99% of people on the site aren't bothered, which may well be true. It's whether that particular community would like to have more access of these kinds of voices of people who avoided it because of the sorts of reservations and experiences we see expressed on that other thread.


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## patrick76

Mike G posts about the name Gearslutz and a few days later they change the name... 






Scary. His power knows no bounds!
Maybe get rid of Facebook next Mike... thanks!


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## Jeremy Gillam

Now it's called G Strings.


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## pawelmorytko

Nice to see the change. I'm aware of the debate whether or not it's derogatory towards women, and I do think it should be changed because of that. But for me personally, it's always been a sort of subconscious thing in my mind about the name of that site, that made me think it's a very unprofessional, casual, and crude forum/community, which I know is totally not true because I have found some great threads and posts there by searching on Google, with lots of useful information. But I do think the name of it has played a part in the reason why I tend to visit VI-Control and other places way more instead.


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## kgdrum

I understand this move but imo this is political correctness at the extreme. The term was a play on a similar term:Gear-Maniac,even with a new name I will always be a ❤️ SLUT ❤️


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## Trash Panda

I found it hard to take that forum seriously because of the name. About 10-20 years ago I’d have loved the name, but websites, like people, grow up.


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## Polkasound

bill5 said:


> To nobody's surprise, the monster that is rampant political correctness stretches its tentacles out ever farther


I have a feeling you and I share the same views on political correctness, but I am looking at this situation more from a business perspective. The name "GearSlutz" has an edge, but it's an edge that provides no advantage to a renown music forum that has grown to reach and welcome members from all over the world. It's the same reasoning why there are no national chain stores in shopping malls named BookSlutz or CoffeeSlutz.

Even though GearSlutz never had any negative intentions, the bigger the site grew, the less congruous the name became. I give Jules credit for being able to look at the site from different perspectives and approach the decision objectively.


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## CT

I think there are a lot of silly overreactions in the name of political correctness out there. This does not strike me as one of them. Somewhat childish forum name gets changed... I'll alert the media?


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## ism

Hey, also - has anyone else noticed that that other thread is, really, much more interesting that this one? It's uniformly thoughtful, nuanced, contextually engaged.

I mean, I'm sure it's just totally a coincidence. But just saying.


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## rgames

I'm one of the first to tire of political correctness in language but that's not what this is. 

"Gearslutz" is just a juvenile name and I support the change for that reason.

rgames


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## Kevinside

Its sad, cause "gearslutz" was the name for a place from newbies to pros...
Everybody could talk about their equipment from the cheapest mixer up to Neve,SSL...
No problem to talk about Avid S6 or Yamaha Nuage...
A perfect community for Post Pro to big recording setups...

Gearslutz will stay in my mind to be one of the best communities out there...
As i said before i am a gearslut...and will be in the future...

Does the change of the name CHANGE the community...No

Is this a war of political correctness... no i don´t think so....


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## Alex Fraser

I won’t be adding to the dude drone other than to say: Good. Smart move.


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## David Kudell

With the way people behave online these days, I’m definitely on the side of trying to bring more civility and more maturity to online discourse as opposed to less. I’m reminded of the phrase “Would you talk to your mother that way?”


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## Quasar

_‘Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What’s Montague? It is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call’d,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself..._


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## elliebean

bill5 said:


> To nobody's surprise, the monster that is rampant political correctness stretches its tentacles out ever farther  Whatever - I don't go there or avoid it because of the name, least of all one that was a silly play on words. I suspect if you polled the people who go there, 99%ish aren't at all bothered by it.


Yeah, of course the people who *already* go there are sufficiently unbothered by it dude. That's what we call selection bias.


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## Michael Antrum

I remember my wife coming into the room and seeing me browsing the site and wondered aloud what, exactly, had I been perusing.......

It's probably a smart move for the site in the long run. 

My teenage years were in the 80's, so I wasn't brought up in the most PC of era's, and I'm not a fan of much of the modern woke nonsense. But in this case I think it's a good idea. There are a lot of top professionals on the site, and perhaps the new name will reflect that more.

BTW - have they decided on the new name yet ?

Treating everyone respectfully and politely will never go out of style.


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## Willowtree

Take that society! This'll teach 'em not to mess with VI-C.

Or, maybe they just couldn't take themselves seriously anymore.


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## bill5

Polkasound said:


> I have a feeling you and I share the same views on political correctness, but I am looking at this situation more from a business perspective. The name "GearSlutz" has an edge, but it's an edge that provides no advantage to a renown music forum that has grown to reach and welcome members from all over the world. It's the same reasoning why there are no national chain stores in shopping malls named BookSlutz or CoffeeSlutz.
> 
> Even though GearSlutz never had any negative intentions, the bigger the site grew, the less congruous the name became. I give Jules credit for being able to look at the site from different perspectives and approach the decision objectively.


I hear you. If the owner feels changing the name would get him more business and he doesn't otherwise care much either way, I get it. I would just hope that's all it is.


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## easyrider




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## easyrider

chrisr said:


> My wife is more offended by the collective term "ladies" @Mike Greene. She finds it patronising, in the true sense of the word. I suspect the women who were allowed to post over on the other thread were too polite to point it out to you.
> 
> best,
> Chris


Tbh I saw this and it reminded me of the days in the working men clubs that allowed women in on Thursday and it was called ladies Thursday....


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## Markrs

I didn't like the name, made me feel uncomfortable so didn't use the site. When I learned that it was one of the biggest music gear sites, this surprised me given the name.


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## Henu

Remember, it's completely normal for everyone to instanly draw parallels from the word "slut" into the word "female" because only a woman can be a slut. No options!


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## easyrider

Markrs said:


> I didn't like the name, made me feel uncomfortable so didn't use the site. When I learned that it was one of the biggest music gear sites, this surprised me given the name.


I’ve been chatting to Paul McCartneys drummer on it....Ive learnt a massive amount from the forum and still an active member....


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## Markrs

easyrider said:


> I’ve been chatting to Paul McCartneys drummer on it....Ive learnt a massive amount from the forum and still an active member....


For me this shows why it is good to change the name, as it seems to be a great site but the name is a put off for some of us


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## easyrider

Markrs said:


> For me this shows why it is good to change the name, as it seems to be a great site but the name is a put off for some of us


I never judge a book by its cover....


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## Crowe

Bow, bow to the pressure of political correctness!

was my kneejerk reaction, but as a business move it's solid.

I have some issues with it being caused by a petition and the army of censorshippers that will take this as another feather in their cap, but the name-change itself isn't that big of a deal.


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## elliebean

GNP said:


> Since we're in such a fucked up climate now, I think AUDIOBRO scoring strings needs to change their name, too, huh?


Bro has literally none of the negative connotations the way that slut does... try a better argument.


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## Alex Niedt

Henu said:


> Remember, it's completely normal for everyone to instanly draw parallels from the word "slut" into the word "female" because only a woman can be a slut. No options!


Yeah, strange to make that parallel...unless you've looked the word up before.


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## Markrs

easyrider said:


> I never judge a book by its cover....


Which is good, but most of us do though. Plus capitalism tells us, if you don't like something vote with your feet, which is what we do with not buying a book because of it's cover (this is why so many companies spend so much money on branding, marketing and book cover design!). Not saying me doing that is good or bad, just my instinctive response.


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## Markrs

I should say that "slut" is not a general word for changing something regularly, it is a word irretrievably linked to female (not generally male) promiscuity. I don't use that word in general conversation, it is not a desensitized word, it still has power and meaning.


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## Crowe

Alex Niedt said:


> Yeah, strange to make that parallel...unless you've looked the word up before.


Google is wrong? Perish the thought.

I can assure you my dictionary doesn't say that.


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## easyrider

Markrs said:


> Which is good, but most of us do though. Plus capitalism tells us, if you don't like something vote with your feet, which is what we do with not buying a book because of it's cover (this is why so many companies spend so much money on branding, marketing and book cover design!). Not saying me doing that is good or bad, just my instinctive response.


Then you need to take a close hard look at yourself....Following arbitrary rules spoon fed into the masses should be challenged....to make real change....you Should question everything.....


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## Alex Niedt

Shiirai said:


> Google is wrong? Perish the thought.
> 
> I can assure you my dictionary doesn't say that.


That's nice. Google uses the Oxford dictionary.

Merriam Webster says "a promiscuous person *: *someone who has many sexual partners — *usually used of a woman*"

So we can sit here and pretend like the word hasn't classically been associated with women, or we can be realistic.


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## Markrs

easyrider said:


> Then you need to take a close hard look at yourself....Following arbitrary rules spoon fed into the masses should be challenged....to make real change....you Should question everything.....


Just being honest, these are the things we do as humans, whether we realise it or not. Not disagreeing that it is good to look beyond the "book cover" the reality of us is most of us don't. In this case, that can harm a business, as someone else pointed out, you don't see other mainstream businesses use "sluts" in their name.


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## easyrider

Language changing over time is not a new phenomenon...it’s a word ...it’s been changed on a forum 

No big deal....


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## elliebean

GNP said:


> Really! Gee, I thought we've already lost all sense of argument by now, so might as well go further and be offended even by things that are harmless!


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## easyrider

Markrs said:


> Just being honest, these are the things we do as humans, whether we realise it or not. Not disagreeing that it is good to look beyond the "book cover" the reality of us is most of us don't. In this case, that can harm a business, as someone else pointed out, you don't see other mainstream businesses use "sluts" in their name.


You do









Gearspace.com


Post 15241270 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.



www.gearslutz.com


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## Markrs

easyrider said:


> You do
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gearspace.com
> 
> 
> Post 15241270 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.
> 
> 
> 
> www.gearslutz.com


Not sure they are main stream, maybe they are in other countries. For me using that term is for shock value only.


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## easyrider

Markrs said:


> Not sure they are main stream, maybe they are in other countries. For me using that term is for shock value only.


however you anchor meaning to a word is your choice...but Accepting the rules of capitalism as a defence of how one lives is fundamentally wrong imo.


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## Richard Wilkinson

Making a relatively small change in order to make a load of people feel a bit more accepted and comfortable. Can't see why anyone would have an issue with that. 
Good on GS for taking the time to listen and consider this move.


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## Cheradenine

This "issue" in a nutshell:

Nice person: Hey, I was thinking that the name Gearslutz is probably offensive to a number of women who have had the slur hurled at them by insecure, aggressive drunken idiots throughout their lives. So it’d be a nice gesture to change the name.

Asshat 1: What? I don’t care about any of that, but as a business move, it’s solid. As long as they’re only doing it for business reasons, I’m fine with it. But if they’re doing it to be nice to people, then I will argue against it till the day I die. How dare you try to be nice?!

Asshat 2: What??!!! This is political correctness gone mad. I’ve got a strong wife! How dare you try to force your nice gesture on the rest of us poor downtrodden asshats. I demand the right to be an insensitive asshat and offend whomever I please at all times. If you try to stop me from complaining about your nice gesture, I’ll do absolutely nothing apart from whinge about it with a bunch of likeminded fedora-wearers on the internet! That’ll show ya!

Nice person: Okay cool guys, we changed the name.


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## Crowe

Alex Niedt said:


> Brilliant! Because those are *definitely* all derogatory words used to disparage women, all certainly equivalent to "slut". This is a *really* good comparison. Proud of you.


All I see in this is that some people *really* want the word 'slut' to be a derogatory term only aimed at women. If you ignore all the people who aren't assholes or don't use the word that way you'll always have the moral high ground.

Congratulations, you're a saint now.

EDIT: On an unrelated note, I scoured the GS forums yesterday in search of information about a synth I'm interested in. I can absolutely promise everyone here that changing the name of the forum is not going to make the place any less of a cesspool.

We are in dire need of a new gear-forum with better moderation.


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## VivianaSings

It's Jules. It's probably not about political correctness - all he really cares about is the money he gets from that site. If he thinks it's gonna bring more people there, he's all for it. If the site was called "gearz" and he thought "gearslutz" would bring more, he'd be changing it the other way. 

All real professionals there have left - there's really no one serious there, not like it was 15 or even 10 years ago. It's overrun with noobs and Jules is just farming them. It's also why he lets manufacturers misbehave and bans people if they call out the manufacturers. It's all about his ad revenue and getting as many noobs as possible to ask the same 3 or 4 questions in droves. I have a 15 year account but in the last few years I pop in like once a month, see the same tired, old questions, see nothing new but variations on a theme like more LA2 or pultec clones, then I close the window. All my peers have long abandoned it. It's not even relevant anymore. Not to working professionals, anyway.

Hell, didn't he even start some other half-ass site about stay at home dads or something? He was spamming everyone on PM trying to get them to go to his new site. That's when I learned unfortunately you can't block Jules and I had to keep getting his spammy PMs on Gearslutz. It's about the dollars. Or pounds I guess for him.


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## Jaap

Very good to hear that they decided to change the name!


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## elliebean

Shiirai said:


> All I see in this is that some people *really* want the word 'slut' to be a derogatory term only aimed at women. If you ignore all the people who aren't assholes or don't use the word that way you'll always have the moral high ground.
> 
> Congratulations, you're a saint now.


Please, I beg you to stop being disingenuous.


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## Crowe

elliebean said:


> Please, I beg you to stop being disingenuous.


I can promise you I'm not.

On a not unrelated note: You seem to have made an account purely to have this argument. Don't you think that's disingenuous?

EDIT: Edited it after being proven wrong.


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## Nils Neumann

Cheradenine said:


> This "issue" in a nutshell:
> 
> Nice person: Hey, I was thinking that the name Gearslutz is probably offensive to a number of women who have had the slur hurled at them by insecure, aggressive drunken idiots throughout their lives. So it’d be a nice gesture to change the name.
> 
> Asshat 1: What? I don’t care about any of that, but as a business move, it’s solid. As long as they’re only doing it for business reasons, I’m fine with it. But if they’re doing it to be nice to people, then I will argue against it till the day I die. How dare you try to be nice?!
> 
> Asshat 2: What??!!! This is political correctness gone mad. I’ve got a strong wife! How dare you try to force your nice gesture on the rest of us poor downtrodden asshats. I demand the right to be an insensitive asshat and offend whomever I please at all times. If you try to stop me from complaining about your nice gesture, I’ll do absolutely nothing apart from whinge about it with a bunch of likeminded fedora-wearers on the internet! That’ll show ya!
> 
> Nice person: Okay cool guys, we changed the name.


Well, we can have civil discussion about both sides, or we can frame the other side so badly that it would be immoral to agree with them.

Thats what you did here.

I'm all for the change, but demeaning the other side to "Asshats" won't help either.


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## elliebean

Shiirai said:


> I can promise you I'm not.
> 
> On a not unrelated note: You made an account purely to have this argument. Don't you think that's disingenuous?


I made my account on December 12th. Nice try, though.


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## Crowe

Markrs said:


> Elliebean, has already commented on this forum before this thread. But to be honest I wouldn't have a problem if Elliebean had created an account to reply, what's wrong with that? I often create an account after lurking to reply to something.


Look, I haven't, and I've only seen her make disparaging comments towards anyone not agreeing with her views. That's troll 101 and if that's not what she's doing, that's absolutely fine. I'm just tired of being called an asshat because I don't agree with a very narrow minded view perpetuated in this thread and I fear I might've lashed out.

To get back to your question, I think Mike has banned people in the past few days who did exactly that, so at least he thinks there's something wrong with that.


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## Henu

Markrs said:


> Not sure they are main stream, maybe they are in other countries. For me using that term is for shock value only.


I'm interested to hear if that was "shock value" to you five years ago? Or ten? Or already in 2003 when the site was established? When did it become a shock value?


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## SupremeFist

"there is no sexism on the internet!" rages online crybaby man desperate to shout down women's perspectives


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## gpax

I am sad as I realize just how much I do not want to participate at VI-Control anymore - after seven years. 

For sure, it’s grown in its diverse makeup by leaps and bounds, yet when it comes to how gender and gender-related issues are discussed, things are not changing nearly fast enough for my hopes. It is a kind of inertia that I regard as being thwarted, like the saying goes: two steps forward; one step back.

I’m pondering how I got deleted from that certain “gender only” thread, because, as I interpret things, someone else determined that I am defined by anatomy, or perhaps presumed that my intellect is determined by what is between my legs. 

Not so, of course. But erased as I was from that thread, because of presumed gender identity, I absolutely do not identify with the strand of male-speak here that asserts, with self-assured certainty, what gender is, including those who scoff at so-called political correctness in a kind of self-preserving territorial stance. Yet, I respect their sense of identity insofar as it does not dominate, or is given a pass when sexist memes and/or language gets tossed about. 

But I can’t get beyond the notion of a forum that now invokes gender labels for who can post in specific threads. That does not sit well with me at all, including a sense of being grouped with some of the boys, so to speak. But this is not the battle I want to fight right now, and I’m an idiot for presuming it is my place to try and affect change. The choice I have is clear.

In parting, I do sincerely think that VI-Control would be much better served by adding moderators to the mix who speak with a more gender-diverse, and even non-gender-binding perspective. To that end, I also maintain that the standing forum guideline which argues for sexist language to be understood as sometimes being “contextual,” is the most regrettable mantel I pass under each and every time I have contributed here. 

While I don’t wish to participate anymore, I am grateful for the resources and skills I have also gleaned from the wealth of members who contribute, all of which has helped to make my music so much better these several years.


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## elliebean

I primarily came to this forum to lurk and read threads and absorb information as I'm a beginner. I'd argue that makes my input on this particular subject more valuable than it might otherwise be. I haven't participated much in other threads because I realize I don't have anything to actually contribute in more technical areas as of this time. That may change down the road. I came here because I want to learn to create music. Thankfully I have no intention to attempt to enter the industry professionally because I definitely don't want to deal with people like *this* on a daily basis. I'm glad that there are some cool people here too. For anyone with a shred of self-awareness, this thread should answer your questions as to why there aren't more female composers, more female engineers, more female programmers, and all sorts of other male-dominated fields. Thanks for treating me like an outsider though. I noticed you didn't scroll through all of the men's profile find out when they signed up and harrass them for disagreeing. Haha, well then again you didn't actually check mine either.


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## Markrs

Henu said:


> I'm interested to hear if that was "shock value" to you five years ago? Or ten? Or already in 2003 when the site was established? When did it become a shock value?


To be honest, that would be hard to know. None of my friends have ever used the term, so hard to gage how a younger me would have reacted to it. In my personal view it has always been offensive and contain negative stereotype meaning towards women.


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## el-bo

Markrs said:


> I should say that "slut" is not a general word for changing something regularly, it is a word irretrievably linked to female (not generally male) promiscuity. I don't use that word in general conversation, it is not a desensitized word, it still has power and meaning.


The word is not "irretrievably linked" to female promiscuity. Language evolves. It might not be as common (Though I'd be curious to see the statistics), but referring to men (Even them referring to themselves) as sluts already tips the balance of the original usage towards promiscuity in general. Not saying it isn't still a derogatory term, but it's still progress, in some form.

And clearly, when GS was started (A couple of decades ago?) it was already common parlance in the form that we are discussing now; that is, unless one believed that the forum was set up for the very niche crossover of sexually-promiscuous women who love music-tech gear 









Definition of slut | Dictionary.com


Slut definition, a person, especially a woman, who is sexually promiscuous. See more.




www.dictionary.com





I'm not saying that we can completely divorce the word from it's original roots, and nor do I think it's the kind of word we should be throwing around nilly-willy. Context is definitely important.
The name never offended me, because it's intention was very clear. It's sad that it had to come at the expense of some being offended, but it's been changed...which was clearly the right thing to do.


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## pondinthestream

Never liked the name, so I am glad it is being changed.


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## Alex Fraser

To those defending the term "slut". I get context/free speech etc etc, but is this really a hill you want to die on? I could think of better ones, TBH.

It'll be interesting to see what the mods do with this thread when they rise and shine in a few hours.


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## pondinthestream

easyrider said:


> You need to think harder about it....he is not speaking for anyone...he is merely stating fact...
> 
> Just because someone says they are offended doesn’t actually mean anything...
> 
> Nothing fundamentally changes about anyone’s existence by words....
> 
> Also you have automatically assumed that women and minorities disagree with his statement which is arrogance in itself....


Yeah, words do have material effect and the evidence for that is overwhelming. Even the briefest bit of thinking will show that . Id give some examples but my partner has just called out that dinner is ready.


----------



## easyrider

Alex Fraser said:


> To those defending the term "slut". I get context/free speech etc etc, but is this really a hill you want to die on? I could think of better ones, TBH.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see what the mods do with this thread when they rise and shine in a few hours.



Just to be clear I’m not defending the term slut....it’s a word that’s it....the connotations of the word depending on ones own perception are meaningless....

Change the name..call, it gearmoon, gearstar, geargirl who cares....all are meaningless...


----------



## chrisr

elliebean said:


> Thank you for your input rich white comedian who isn't affected by any if this in any meaningful way! I'm sure all of the women and minorities of the world will rest easier knowing this sage has spoken for them!


Actually Ellie, whilst there's some vile talk in this thread I'll just quickly jump in in defence of Stephen Fry, who I've had the pleasure of working and chatting with in the studio on many occasions. He definitely is someone who has faced discrimination and minority oppression in his life, and he would be amongst the first people to challenge such abuses. What he's referring to here is almost certainly the loss of meaningful discourse in society in favour of cancel culture. I think he'd be appalled that the quote is given out of context. Nature of the beast of course...


----------



## easyrider

chrisr said:


> Actually Ellie, whilst there's some vile talk in this thread I'll just quickly jump in in defence of Stephen Fry, who I've had the pleasure of working and chatting with in the studio on many occasions. He definitely is someone who has faced discrimination and minority oppression in his life, and he would be amongst the first people to challenge such abuses. What he's referring to here is almost certainly the loss of meaningful discourse in society in favour of cancel culture. I think he'd be appalled that the quote is given out of context. Nature of the beast of course...


I‘ve watched many lectures with Stephen Fry talking about free speech....this quote is not out of context....it’s just highlighting fact....

One can be offended

One can also not care if someone is offended


----------



## easyrider




----------



## chrisr

easyrider said:


> I‘ve watched many lectures with Stephen Fry talking about free speech....this quote is not out of context....it’s just highlighting fact....
> 
> One can be offended
> 
> One can also not care if someone is offended


He's prompting the person who says that they take offence to further expand upon their point. Maybe whoever created the image could add that with an asterisk at the bottom for those who don't do nuance? The last line of the quote is a question.

The context in which he say this is within the debate about cancel culture - not every scenario in which people might _reasonably_ take offence.

To be offended by something is still a entirely reasonable position to take. It's just not an end in itself.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Hmmn. To throw open the debate to encompass "wokeness" and "cancel culture" I think is missing the point - or at least throwing the net too wide.

One can take offence to one thing, but not be bothered by the other. We all have difference tolerances for different things. But if _enough people_ are bothered by a particular thing - as evidenced by the Gearslutz petition - then there's grounds for considering change. Can't see why anyone would take issue with that.

Any way, the inbox is calling. I fully expect to see the thread in a hot mess when I check back later.


----------



## VivianaSings

elliebean said:


> . For anyone with a shred of self-awareness, this thread should answer your questions as to why there aren't more female composers, more female engineers, more female programmers, and all sorts of other male-dominated fields. Thanks for treating me like an outsider though. I noticed you didn't scroll through all of the men's profile find out when they signed up and harrass them for disagreeing. Haha, well then again you didn't actually check mine either.


No, there's actually a nice amount of female engineers and composers. And musicians. I know because I work with them almost every day. The difference between them and you is that they can take a punch and give one back just as hard. 

Here's a secret you obviously don't know but this business isn't for the fragile no matter what gender you are. Anyone who makes it in this business is pretty tough and that's the difference. If you're losing it over some words on a forum, then yes, this business is definitely not for you. Because when the deadlines get insane and you're in a session for 18 or 20 hours with other musicians and everyone's stretched to the limit, no one wants to hear your woke bullshit or how offended you are by someone's joke that they told because they're trying to lighten the stress.

I had a session literally 2 weeks ago for some television soundtrack stuff. Female composer, in fact. I was on as orchestrator and musical director. 20 piece band / chamber orchestra. 7 of the musicians were women on top of it. I called in a female singer to do some spacey vocalizations. Young girl - maybe 25. Clearly just breaking in to the business. 

We did the first take reading down. She did a good job. We listened to playback and when it was over the sax player, in what was really just encouragement, kind of gave her a bump with his forearm on her shoulder and said, "You sounded great!" 

Instantly she shot back, "Don't touch me again. I don't want men touching me without my permission". Boom - everyone started shooting "oh shit" looks around the room at each other. I called a 5 minute break. The violinist pulled me aside and she told me, "I know someone who can do this stuff and have her here in 20 minutes". And that was that. Thank you, we won't be needing you anymore. The sigh of relief in the room from everyone, male and female, as soon as she left was immense. And word in this business travels fast. It'll probably be a while before someone calls her again.

Once you start spitting your racist "white man" spiel and virtue signaling for minorities, all you are is nothing more than a lawsuit waiting to happen. A liability no one can afford. A downer on the gig. As someone who's done this for decades on tours, sessions, and shows, all it takes is one bad apple to bring everyone down on the gig, male and female. 

I think of my mother who came from Italy as a kid in the early 30s. When she got older she wanted to get into business. She had to change her name because her name was too Italian and there was rampant prejudice against Italians. She didn't go home and cry that mean people oppress her. She just changed her name. Then she worked her way up the corporate ladder, fighting tooth and nail for everything in a time when there was actual sexism and NO ONE was held accountable. She took a lot of shit and gave it back twice as hard. She fought for everything she got and ended up being very successful and never once cried victim. She's in her 80s now and still tough as nails. Growing up she used to tell me, "No one owes you a thing in this world. If you want something, go and earn it. If you don't get what you want, you have no one to blame but yourself." Probably explains why I'm successful in a business people say that the odds of being successful are non-existent. It's good to have a mother who didn't cry victim. 

All this ultra woke crap you swallowed growing up having you look for boogeymen everywhere did you no favors. But it won't matter because you'll still be blaming the evil, white, misogynistic men and crying victim. 

Call it what you want but I probably just gave you the best advice to getting anywhere in this business. Toughen up, buttercup.


----------



## el-bo

Alex Fraser said:


> To those defending the term "slut". I get context/free speech etc etc, but is this really a hill you want to die on? I could think of better ones, TBH.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see what the mods do with this thread when they rise and shine in a few hours.


No one is dying on any hills. And no one is arguing that because of free-speech we should be allowed to disparage women. The point being argued is that the naming of that site came from another usage of the same word, which seems to have been obvious to the majority, for the last twenty years. 

If so many people found the term to be tasteless and perhaps coined in the pejorative sense, why did nobody (until now) take a real stand against it? So many people now claiming they felt it tasteless and disparaging, but never thought to do anything about it. Is that a better hill?

Anyway, it turns out that the name did actually keep some users away, and caused embarrassment in many situations. Good that they've changed it.


----------



## easyrider

1.6 million GS user accounts.....just under 5000 votes....

I think the majority don't really care about name...and many don’t care that some people are offended by the name.....

Its just a word...change it don’t change it....the world still rolls to its death....and people are still pouring GAS into their cars and destroying rain forests....and killing each other to defend their pots of gold.....


----------



## Alex Fraser

el-bo said:


> No one is dying on any hills. And no one is arguing that because of free-speech we should be allowed to disparage women. The point being argued is that the naming of that site came from another usage of the same word, which seems to have been obvious to the majority, for the last twenty years.
> 
> If so many people found the term to be tasteless and perhaps coined in the pejorative sense, why did nobody (until now) take a real stand against it? So many people now claiming they felt it tasteless and disparaging, but never thought to do anything about it. Is that a better hill?
> 
> Anyway, it turns out that the name did actually keep some users away, and caused embarrassment in many situations. Good that they've changed it.


I'm only referring to the discussion over the literal definition and use of the word, nothing more. And 20 years is a long time. Attitudes change, I guess.


----------



## A.Dern

ism said:


> Hey, also - has anyone else noticed that that other thread is, really, much more interesting that this one? It's uniformly thoughtful, nuanced, contextually engaged.
> 
> I mean, I'm sure it's just totally a coincidence. But just saying.


Funny that, isn't it? But please, let all the boys continue to shout into the void over here.


----------



## chrisr

A.Dern said:


> Funny that, isn't it? But please, let all the boys continue to shout into the void over here.


There are voices of reason that would love to contribute to that discussion but we're literally not allowed. I've enjoyed reading it though.


----------



## el-bo

A.Dern said:


> Funny that, isn't it? But please, let all the boys continue to shout into the void over here.


Some of us tried to contribute, but were deleted (Fair enough, I guess. We were warned). But this is a discussion, not a void, and it seems open to all VI-C members...not just us boys


----------



## AudioLoco

For the ones crying and whining "censorship!" and "political correctness exaggeration!"....

I am sure you will manage to survive this terrible terrible ordeal and suffering to the highest degree. One day you will recover from the terrible bruises provoked by this grave event that almost brought the world to collapse and rendered you victims of the highest degree....

They told you some (yes, a small percentage) find the name harmful and painful. Not only you didn't care, but you accused and insulted and further tried to degrade those opinions and people, bellitteling their feelings and experiences, in general from a privileged point of vantage, and no clue about daily degradation and abuse, in life, and especially on line.

And now you are in horrible pain and even more angry... because....
a name of an international household word leading site, making some good income from all that advertisement, will not have the term "whores that like to be whores" in it's title.

You can still use the term anywhere you want, in posts, threads, in emails.....in the grocery store, while talking to your mom...
Your precious "freedom" to say and write "slut" hasn't been touched.
I know it is of fundamental importance to you...

I wish you a swift recovery....

You can not be happy about it, but to be so upset and desperate... In history, language changes and evolves with the times... Many offending words have been rightly so eliminated from everyday or casual use throughout history.
I just find it absurd that people are so offended by inclusivity ...
Who are the real snowflakes?!


----------



## AudioLoco

VivianaSings said:


> No, there's actually a nice amount of female engineers and composers. And musicians. I know because I work with them almost every day. The difference between them and you is that they can take a punch and give one back just as hard.
> 
> Here's a secret you obviously don't know but this business isn't for the fragile no matter what gender you are. Anyone who makes it in this business is pretty tough and that's the difference. If you're losing it over some words on a forum, then yes, this business is definitely not for you. Because when the deadlines get insane and you're in a session for 18 or 20 hours with other musicians and everyone's stretched to the limit, no one wants to hear your woke bullshit or how offended you are by someone's joke that they told because they're trying to lighten the stress.
> 
> I had a session literally 2 weeks ago for some television soundtrack stuff. Female composer, in fact. I was on as orchestrator and musical director. 20 piece band / chamber orchestra. 7 of the musicians were women on top of it. I called in a female singer to do some spacey vocalizations. Young girl - maybe 25. Clearly just breaking in to the business.
> 
> We did the first take reading down. She did a good job. We listened to playback and when it was over the sax player, in what was really just encouragement, kind of gave her a bump with his forearm on her shoulder and said, "You sounded great!"
> 
> Instantly she shot back, "Don't touch me again. I don't want men touching me without my permission". Boom - everyone started shooting "oh shit" looks around the room at each other. I called a 5 minute break. The violinist pulled me aside and she told me, "I know someone who can do this stuff and have her here in 20 minutes". And that was that. Thank you, we won't be needing you anymore. The sigh of relief in the room from everyone, male and female, as soon as she left was immense. And word in this business travels fast. It'll probably be a while before someone calls her again.
> 
> Once you start spitting your racist "white man" spiel and virtue signaling for minorities, all you are is nothing more than a lawsuit waiting to happen. A liability no one can afford. A downer on the gig. As someone who's done this for decades on tours, sessions, and shows, all it takes is one bad apple to bring everyone down on the gig, male and female.
> 
> I think of my mother who came from Italy as a kid in the early 30s. When she got older she wanted to get into business. She had to change her name because her name was too Italian and there was rampant prejudice against Italians. She didn't go home and cry that mean people oppress her. She just changed her name. Then she worked her way up the corporate ladder, fighting tooth and nail for everything in a time when there was actual sexism and NO ONE was held accountable. She took a lot of shit and gave it back twice as hard. She fought for everything she got and ended up being very successful and never once cried victim. She's in her 80s now and still tough as nails. Growing up she used to tell me, "No one owes you a thing in this world. If you want something, go and earn it. If you don't get what you want, you have no one to blame but yourself." Probably explains why I'm successful in a business people say that the odds of being successful are non-existent. It's good to have a mother who didn't cry victim.
> 
> All this ultra woke crap you swallowed growing up having you look for boogeymen everywhere did you no favors. But it won't matter because you'll still be blaming the evil, white, misogynistic men and crying victim.
> 
> Call it what you want but I probably just gave you the best advice to getting anywhere in this business. Toughen up, buttercup.


So to sum up this amazing post:

You have to get punched
Get punched more
Get punched
Shut up
Give up to abusive language
shut up about it
shut up
get punched
not get offended or hurt
Bow to racism
shut up about it
get punched
you will sue me one day if we work together
this business is not for you


----------



## asherpope

GNP said:


> I know you're rooting for censorship without discourse, but I guess that makes you a better person, aye.


A person changing the name of their own website is not censorship


----------



## asherpope

GNP said:


> I was referring to your insinuation of what the moderators are gonna do to this thread, genius...


Well as long as you get to play the victim one way or another


----------



## A.Dern

VivianaSings said:


> No, there's actually a nice amount of female engineers and composers. And musicians. I know because I work with them almost every day. The difference between them and you is that they can take a punch and give one back just as hard.
> 
> Here's a secret you obviously don't know but this business isn't for the fragile no matter what gender you are. Anyone who makes it in this business is pretty tough and that's the difference. If you're losing it over some words on a forum, then yes, this business is definitely not for you. Because when the deadlines get insane and you're in a session for 18 or 20 hours with other musicians and everyone's stretched to the limit, no one wants to hear your woke bullshit or how offended you are by someone's joke that they told because they're trying to lighten the stress.
> 
> I had a session literally 2 weeks ago for some television soundtrack stuff. Female composer, in fact. I was on as orchestrator and musical director. 20 piece band / chamber orchestra. 7 of the musicians were women on top of it. I called in a female singer to do some spacey vocalizations. Young girl - maybe 25. Clearly just breaking in to the business.
> 
> We did the first take reading down. She did a good job. We listened to playback and when it was over the sax player, in what was really just encouragement, kind of gave her a bump with his forearm on her shoulder and said, "You sounded great!"
> 
> Instantly she shot back, "Don't touch me again. I don't want men touching me without my permission". Boom - everyone started shooting "oh shit" looks around the room at each other. I called a 5 minute break. The violinist pulled me aside and she told me, "I know someone who can do this stuff and have her here in 20 minutes". And that was that. Thank you, we won't be needing you anymore. The sigh of relief in the room from everyone, male and female, as soon as she left was immense. And word in this business travels fast. It'll probably be a while before someone calls her again.
> 
> Once you start spitting your racist "white man" spiel and virtue signaling for minorities, all you are is nothing more than a lawsuit waiting to happen. A liability no one can afford. A downer on the gig. As someone who's done this for decades on tours, sessions, and shows, all it takes is one bad apple to bring everyone down on the gig, male and female.
> 
> I think of my mother who came from Italy as a kid in the early 30s. When she got older she wanted to get into business. She had to change her name because her name was too Italian and there was rampant prejudice against Italians. She didn't go home and cry that mean people oppress her. She just changed her name. Then she worked her way up the corporate ladder, fighting tooth and nail for everything in a time when there was actual sexism and NO ONE was held accountable. She took a lot of shit and gave it back twice as hard. She fought for everything she got and ended up being very successful and never once cried victim. She's in her 80s now and still tough as nails. Growing up she used to tell me, "No one owes you a thing in this world. If you want something, go and earn it. If you don't get what you want, you have no one to blame but yourself." Probably explains why I'm successful in a business people say that the odds of being successful are non-existent. It's good to have a mother who didn't cry victim.
> 
> All this ultra woke crap you swallowed growing up having you look for boogeymen everywhere did you no favors. But it won't matter because you'll still be blaming the evil, white, misogynistic men and crying victim.
> 
> Call it what you want but I probably just gave you the best advice to getting anywhere in this business. Toughen up, buttercup.


I am really quite disgusted by this comment I must say (and quite a few others on here as well).

1. There's a nice amount of female composers? Over the past few years we've been ranging between 3%-6% on all commercial productions. So 94%-97% of all commercial film scoring gigs go to one gender and usually one color. If that's an okay balance to some, then yeah I don't know how to argue against that I suppose.

2. I've taken many a punch over my past 8 years in Hollywood. By that I mean sexual harassment in the workplace, demeaning comments, inappropriate jokes, even more inappropriate proposals, straight-up sexism to my face, you name it. The worst (illegal) ones I've reported and guess what - I had to bear the consequences every single time. The dudes in power got a slap on the wrist while I had to either endure their behavior or leave, risk my livelihood, my immigration status, and had to fear I'd be labeled "difficult" or "too emotional". Every young woman has had that "casual hand on the shoulder" experience at a studio which is not only uncomfortable but often leads to the guy taking more and more liberties as the day progresses if you don't shut it down right away. So for the musician in the story to pretty much get fired for not wanting to be touched by a stranger and you thinking this is the right way to handle such a "downer" is quite alarming. I'm not touching my anyone at my sessions unless I'm friends with them. I also expect to not be touched by anyone I don't know without my permission. It's common decency and simply professional behavior.

3. If someone starts to forget their manners in an 18 hour session of mine, they will be shown the door. There are plenty of professionals who can act the part and if someone can't they have no place on my team, no matter how long and hard the days get. Luckily that hasn't ever happened in any of my sessions so clearly there are plenty of men out there who have no such troubles and don't need excuses made for them.

4. I could tell so many more stories of myself and my colleagues where these types of situations are normalized and how women are generally silenced. A common example was just described above: Fire the woman who speaks up when she's uncomfortable because she's such a buzzkill and then spread the story about how difficult she is so she won't be hired again anytime soon. Good job. You have now created an environment for the Harvey Weinstein's of the world to thrive where every woman is too afraid to say something because the guy gets away with it while her life and career are ruined for speaking up. It still happens every day and is very rampant in Hollywood.

I genuinely don't know why in this day and age we still expect women to "take a punch" and know how to gracefully deal with disgraceful situations we're put in regularly. What is the advice here? Suck it up and take it? We've been doing that and it doesn't work. It protects the wrong people from consequences and silences those who need a voice. Why should women have to deal with these extra hurdles in the first place? I'd have so many hundreds of stories to tell but I know on this forum at least half of you wouldn't listen but just discount everything I say. And so... many women will stay quiet instead of having this discussion at 4:14AM.


----------



## A.Dern

GNP said:


> Funny you said that. Men have been doing that and it doesn't seem to work, even amongst each other!
> 
> It's just the nature of working in the real world. We all have to suck it up one way or another. Welcome to the "club", for it's not some exclusive society of being coddled. We all have had to suck it up.


You completely missed the point, didn't you? Of course it's a tough business for which one needs a thick skin but women are expected to take a lot more punches here than everyone else. Speaking from experience.


----------



## A.Dern

pawelmorytko said:


> Or maybe.... just maybe, this was aimed at all of the derogatory, and dismissive comments on the issue, and not about ALL of the men on here, hence why the "boys".
> 
> Anyway, I really thought VI-Control was better than this. Looking through this thread, it's sad to see that even in 2021, people still haven't learned how to be a decent human being.


Thankfully some here get it. I suppose us "ladies" are supposed to take misplaced jokes and disrespectful comments and take a punch but then some guys here get their tails in a twist the moment a woman makes a tongue-in-cheek comment about the "boys". Guess a thicker skin needs to be grown there too? Anyway, thank you for understanding nuance - a seemingly rare gift on the internet these days.


----------



## Minsky

The guys at Gearslutz have made the right decision, kudos to them for it.


----------



## pawelmorytko

GNP said:


> Funny you said that. Men have been doing that and it doesn't seem to work, even amongst each other!
> 
> It's just the nature of working in the real world. We all have to suck it up one way or another. Welcome to the "club", for it's not some exclusive society of being coddled, with mere mortals waiting to get in the gate. We all have had to suck it up.


This seems very relevant right now.





_Yes both genders have it tough in this industry, and we all have to suck it up at times. But we're focused on the women that have it tough right now, because it is very apparent that they go through these struggles way more often.

Plus, if you can't see why we're trying to create a better place for the women here, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM._


----------



## Zero&One

I wish there were more Women Only threads. 80% of this thread proves Mikes decision on that.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Zero&One said:


> I wish there were more Women Only threads. 80% of this thread proves Mikes decision on that.


Yep totally agree, Mando.
I was torn on the idea at first but that decision was a good one. (Watching the mods play whack-a-mole with it was like that scene in World War Z when the zombies try to scale the wall.)


----------



## ism

Alex Fraser said:


> Yep totally agree, Mando.
> I was torn on the idea at first but that decision was a good one. (Watching the mods play whack-a-mole with it was like that scene in World War Z when the zombies try to scale the wall.)



That’s a great image. I wonder what a soundtrack to this epic struggle against the metaphorical zombie hordes of endless waves of male pontification would sound like?

Not your typical epic zombie bombast full of ffff trombones I’m thinking. But maybe something with more subtlety and nuance, more like an Anne Kathrin-Dern score, to just pick a random example.


----------



## Dan

As a (apparently not very clever) german, when I first saw the site some years ago, I read the name as GearsLutz at first, Lutz being a common, but slightly old-fashioned german name. "Must be founded by a guy named Lutz then", I thought, until it made 'click'. 
Glad they are changing the name to save other slow germans the embarrassment.


----------



## Brasart

ism said:


> That’s a great image. I wonder what a soundtrack to this epic struggle against the metaphorical zombie hordes of endless waves of male pontification would sound like?
> 
> Not your typical epic zombie bombast full of ffff trombones I’m thinking. But maybe something with more subtlety and nuance, more like an Anne Kathrin-Dern score, to just pick a random example.


I can provide the cue of them writing and posting


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

I was going to say a couple of people in this thread really should talk to women more, but that's part of the problem - they should *listen* to women. Not just talk. 
Who would have thought removing the word 'slut' from a music forum's name would receive such a crybaby response from some (only some, but they aren't half loud) men. Bizarre.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Some perspective, to reduce the bad-world/Vi-C-syndrom.

VivianaSings






A.Dern


----------



## el-bo

A.Dern said:


> 1. There's a nice amount of female composers? Over the past few years we've been ranging between 3%-6% on all commercial productions. So 94%-97% of all commercial film scoring gigs go to one gender and usually one color. If that's an okay balance to some, then yeah I don't know how to argue against that I suppose.


Evidently, for various reasons, the pool of female and ethnic-minority composers is disproportionately smaller. While it would be great to see a much wider representation of people, it's not currently going to be a possibility; at least not if hiring is based on merit/talent. Or are you suggesting that people are not being hired based on talent and merit?



A.Dern said:


> 2. I've taken many a punch over my past 8 years in Hollywood. By that I mean sexual harassment in the workplace, demeaning comments, inappropriate jokes, even more inappropriate proposals, straight-up sexism to my face, you name it. The worst (illegal) ones I've reported and guess what - I had to bear the consequences every single time. The dudes in power got a slap on the wrist while I had to either endure their behavior or leave, risk my livelihood, my immigration status, and had to fear I'd be labeled "difficult" or "too emotional". Every young woman has had that "casual hand on the shoulder" experience at a studio which is not only uncomfortable but often leads to the guy taking more and more liberties as the day progresses if you don't shut it down right away. So for the musician in the story to pretty much get fired for not wanting to be touched by a stranger and you thinking this is the right way to handle such a "downer" is quite alarming. I'm not touching my anyone at my sessions unless I'm friends with them. I also expect to not be touched by anyone I don't know without my permission. It's common decency and simply professional behavior.



Not going to address most of this comment, because it's clear that nobody should have to go through this kind of experience. It's truly unfortunate.

However, I wanted to address your take on the story that had been related. My initial reaction was that it was just an elbow nudging a shoulder, delivered in a completely platonic manner. And I still believe that. Of course, I also believe that people have the right to draw their own personal boundaries, or just try to hold onto those dictated by he culture in which they were raised. All good.

The problem here, I believe, is the way in which this woman communicated her boundaries. If it is accepted by most of a specific population that an elbow-nudge to an upper-arm or shoulder is just a friendly way of getting someone's attention and communicating a kind of 'knowing/agreement' (Sorry, I'm finding it hard to communicate what this common action is actually supposed to communicate), then perhaps it's not ideal to lambast somebody in front of an entire room. It's that knee-jerk reaction (And we all fall prey to them, at some points) that I think was at the root of the reaction she received from everyone else. And I got no feeling from the story that it would have been any different if it had been a male reacting to another male's nudge. The idea that she maintained a reputation that she was difficult to work with didn't seem to have anything to do with her being a woman. I might be wrong.

In hindsight (Hers, possibly), perhaps she might have thought to take the man aside to tell him that she found it inappropriate.




A.Dern said:


> 4. I could tell so many more stories of myself and my colleagues where these types of situations are normalized and how women are generally silenced. A common example was just described above: Fire the woman who speaks up when she's uncomfortable because she's such a buzzkill and then spread the story about how difficult she is so she won't be hired again anytime soon. Good job. You have now created an environment for the Harvey Weinstein's of the world to thrive where every woman is too afraid to say something because the guy gets away with it while her life and career are ruined for speaking up. It still happens every day and is very rampant in Hollywood.



How have we gone from elbow nudge to Harvey Weinstein? Again, it saddens me that anyone should have to have the kind of experience you and other women have had, but that seems like a loss of perspective. Are you suggesting that men haven't been fired and subsequently not-hired for being difficult?



A.Dern said:


> I genuinely don't know why in this day and age we still expect women to "take a punch" and know how to gracefully deal with disgraceful situations we're put in regularly. What is the advice here? Suck it up and take it? We've been doing that and it doesn't work. It protects the wrong people from consequences and silences those who need a voice. Why should women have to deal with these extra hurdles in the first place?


I don't think women should have to take punches, just as i don't think men should have to. And no, I don't think that just because many of us men have a ton of experience taking punches (And having to silence ourselves, for our own personal good) means that women should have to just accept it. Nobody should have to take punches, especially when speaking out would lose them their livelihood. This is not just a female issue.



A.Dern said:


> I'd have so many hundreds of stories to tell but *I know on this forum at least half of you wouldn't listen but just discount everything I say.* And so... many women will stay quiet instead of having this discussion at 4:14AM.



I tend to believe that each event be judged on it's own 'merits', even if historically things seem to work out as they always have. So while you might have had many previous experiences of having not being listened to, that doesn't mean there won't be times when you have a majority of people interested in what you have to say.

Mike did the right thing when he gave the female members priority to share their thoughts. And as some have mentioned, it did lead to some nuanced arguments that probably helped inform some changes in opinion. But of all the forums you could try to make the claim the you wouldn't be listened to (by 50% of the members), I don't think this is the one. I think you have a great chance of a safe space here, just within the normal workings of the forums. In general, arguments seem pretty nuanced across the board. I have no doubt that there are many of us who'd be interested to hear the stories. Perhaps try doing so, without condemning us first.


----------



## Dietz

Dan said:


> As a (apparently not very clever) german, when I first saw the site some years ago, I read the name as GearsLutz at first, Lutz being a common, but slightly old-fashioned german name. "Must be founded by a guy named Lutz then", I thought, until it made 'click'.
> Glad they are changing the name to save other slow germans the embarrassment.


Funny you say that, because reading this whole discussion I had a lurking doubt about the whole thing being mostly a native-speakers' issue. For those whose first language isn't English the embarrassment of that other forum's original name is negligible, by comparison.


----------



## Tim_Wells

It was absolutely the right thing to do for a myriad of reasons.

When I first saw the name many years ago, I thought it was kind of funny and kitschy. I know it was meant as self-deprecating. 

But I've learned that things I thought were harmless fun, can be threatening and demeaning to some. I mean, what if it was called 'gear-retards' or worse? What's the point of potentially hurting someone? Anyone? Especially those who already face obstacles. That's a bizarre twist on freedom of speech. 

To top it off, the name was unprofessional and juvenile. The world changes. Time to move on!


----------



## ism

poetd said:


> Wow.
> 
> A man who struggled with his homosexuality for most of his life, so depressed over it he attempted suicide.
> 
> You just lost a lot of stock with that dismissive comment.





elliebean said:


> Thank you for your input rich white comedian who isn't affected by any if this in any meaningful way! I'm sure all of the women and minorities of the world will rest easier knowing this sage has spoken for them!


While I'm sure it's completely obvious to most people, but you're absolutely right to call this out @elliebean . 

The issue isn't whether Fry himself might be ok, it's the way this quote has been smugly deployed against you for your efforts to brings nuance and perspective to the debate. 


I don't know the context of the original Fry quote, but the point here is the context and silencing intent in which it's deployed. 


And I have no doubt Fry himself - *because* he understand the nuances of struggle again insidious ambient discursive forces - would himself agree with you completely. 


(Incidentally, anyone interested in nuance and discourse might like check out Fry's documentary on Wagner. Being Jewish himself, he navigates a lot of difficult context and nuance around the meaning associated with Wagner, who's music he loves. )


----------



## easyrider

ism said:


> While I'm sure it's completely obvious to most people, but you're absolutely right to call this out @elliebean .
> 
> The issue isn't whether Fry himself might be ok, it's the way this quote has been smugly deployed against you for your efforts to brings nuance and perspective to the debate.
> 
> 
> I don't know the context of the original Fry quote, but the point here is the context and silencing intent in which it's deployed.
> 
> 
> And I have no doubt Fry himself - *because* he understand the nuances of struggle again insidious ambient discursive forces - would himself agree with you completely.
> 
> 
> (Incidentally, anyone interested in nuance and discourse might like check out Fry's documentary on Wagner. Being Jewish himself, he navigates a lot of difficult context and nuance around the meaning associated with Wagner, who's music he loves. )


One has the right to be offended....

One has the right to not care if you are offended or not....

Its pretty basic stuff.....


----------



## el-bo

NothingToHide said:


> have heard men call other men a cunt, today.
> Maybe the native speakers could shed some light on how the word is used in different social environments today. But somehow I have a feeling, this won’t be a unanimous answer ...


I'm sure it's the same as in most languages, i.e context-dependent. Calling your mates c****, in the context of joking around, is just fun and games. Calling a stranger a ****, in the wrong kind of pub might result in a broken bottle inserted into your face.


----------



## A.Dern

The numbers question has been discussed to death for years now and yet there still seems to be confusion about this. So here it goes:

1. Yes, there are fewer women and people of color in this field. We should be asking ourselves why that is. The many nuanced socio-economic reasons can be found in countless essays online by smarter people than myself.

2. Take this story from Trevor Noah. He once told the story of how he took over the Daily Show and wanted to specifically have diverse writers and comedians on the show. But when it came to applications and selections, he was only presented with a pool of white men. So he went down to the comedy clubs where more diverse talent was performing and spoke to his colleagues, asking why they hadn't applied. Their reply was simple: You can't apply for a job you didn't know about. You see when studios send out opportunities, they send them to agencies. Up until recently composer agencies were filled almost 100% with people of one gender and one color. So naturally, executives would only ever get submissions from one gender and one color. The one that's traditionally hired. The one that doesn't suffer from a pay gap. The one that is most likely to be allowed to succeed. This creates the impression that there are no women or people of color doing this when there are many qualified people to choose from. But there is a chain of gatekeepers that first need to break their habits on a regular basis for opportunities to go out to a diverse talent-pool.

3. Equal rights does not mean equal opportunity. We are looking for equity. Erasing a history of lack of equity requires awareness and work. Gatekeepers have to be made aware of issues and have to be persuaded to do the many years of work it takes to rectify a problem that was hundreds of years in the making. There are so many systems and biases in place still that make it that much harder for women and people of color to succeed in certain areas - so many extra hurdles to jump. My colleagues and I have encountered many of them but the glass ceiling is very much still present. If you don't believe that, just look at the history of orchestras - how their gender balance shifted all of a sudden once blind auditions became mandatory.

And to be clear about one thing: I have NEVER heard a single woman say that diverse talent should be hired for the sake of diversity. That would be an insult to any of us and the greatest disrespect to our professionalism. It's just about getting the same shot as everyone else which currently is not the case in many places.


----------



## ism

VivianaSings said:


> Sounds more like you have really shitty luck when it comes to working with people. I've never seen any woman mistreated on my sessions and a "great job" and a bump with a forearm doesn't lead to any kind of sexual harassment. Not that I've ever seen.


Yes, I'm sure it's all just shitty luck. Nothing systemic about it.

Also unlucky is that that - to a one - all of my female friends have these same kinds of horrible experiences, in different ways, varying by industry, but uniform in the shittyness of these experiences.
What terrible no good very bad luck they all have had.

And here's another data point - *all* the women posting here - to a one, or very nearly if I'm not mistaken - at least allude to these kinds of experience in working in these kinds traditional context. More terrible, no good very bad luck it seems.

Seriously though, we can at least all agree on the "shitty" part. And that at least might be a common starting point, in listening to the accounts of experience being shared. And the sheer volume and ubiquity of these accounts.


----------



## Mike Greene

I've deleted a number of posts here. Some may have been in error, and some were deleted so people wouldn't be confused by a posts responding to deleted posts. My apologies if you're amongst them.

I've also given timeouts to GNP, NothingtoHide, and VivianaSings for various combinations of disrespect, combativeness and/or over-posting (as I asked people not to do in this thread.)

Much of the remaining discussion is very good IMO, so I'm hoping everyone can keep a respectful tone.


----------



## dzilizzi

easyrider said:


> You do
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gearspace.com
> 
> 
> Post 15241270 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.
> 
> 
> 
> www.gearslutz.com


I kind of wonder if this is like the C U Next Tuesday word that is a very insulting word in the U.S. describing women only, but is a normal curse word used to describe both men and women in Britain and Australia (and maybe other countries?) It kind of shocked me the first time I heard a bunch of British guys calling each other that. 

When you think about that people from all over come here (and to Gearslutz and other online forums), it is hard to say what is really insulting and what is just not polite, like using a regular swear word. 

I've also noticed that what is "politically correct" changes over time and what people liked or didn't mind being called (i.e. girls vs gals vs ladies vs women) also changes. Also, what people will call themselves versus what they will allow others to call them can be different. It can be hard to keep up. And the tone of voice that might determine if it is intended to be an insult or not gets lost a lot online. 

I'm glad they are changing their name. It didn't bother me because I took it in the sense it was meant - people who are crazy about gear. Frankly, it is slightly better than GearHoaderz, which is really what I think they mean. But it was a little hard to recommend to others seriously.


----------



## el-bo

A.Dern said:


> The numbers question has been discussed to death for years now and yet there still seems to be confusion about this. So here it goes:
> 
> 1. Yes, there are fewer women and people of color in this field. We should be asking ourselves why that is. The many nuanced socio-economic reasons can be found in countless essays online by smarter people than myself.
> 
> 2. Take this story from Trevor Noah. He once told the story of how he took over the Daily Show and wanted to specifically have diverse writers and comedians on the show. But when it came to applications and selections, he was only presented with a pool of white men. So he went down to the comedy clubs where more diverse talent was performing and spoke to his colleagues, asking why they hadn't applied. Their reply was simple: You can't apply for a job you didn't know about. You see when studios send out opportunities, they send them to agencies. Up until recently composer agencies were filled almost 100% with people of one gender and one color. So naturally, executives would only ever get submissions from one gender and one color. The one that's traditionally hired. The one that doesn't suffer from a pay gap. The one that is most likely to be allowed to succeed. This creates the impression that there are no women or people of color doing this when there are many qualified people to choose from. But there is a chain of gatekeepers that first need to break their habits on a regular basis for opportunities to go out to a diverse talent-pool.
> 
> 3. Equal rights does not mean equal opportunity. We are looking for equity. Erasing a history of lack of equity requires awareness and work. Gatekeepers have to be made aware of issues and have to be persuaded to do the many years of work it takes to rectify a problem that was hundreds of years in the making. There are so many systems and biases in place still that make it that much harder for women and people of color to succeed in certain areas - so many extra hurdles to jump. My colleagues and I have encountered many of them but the glass ceiling is very much still present. If you don't believe that, just look at the history of orchestras - how their gender balance shifted all of a sudden once blind auditions became mandatory.
> 
> And to be clear about one thing: I have NEVER heard a single woman say that diverse talent should be hired for the sake of diversity. That would be an insult to any of us and the greatest disrespect to our professionalism. It's just about getting the same shot as everyone else which currently is not the case in many places.


The numbers question may have been discussed to death, but some of us are new to this sector and not privy to all of these previous discussions. And while I don't think you were necessarily addressing me in particular, this response does clear up some pre/mis-conceptions I have had and will inform how I think about the issue in future.

Also, to clarify: I don't think I asserted that you would prioritise diversity over merit. I believe I asked you if you thought that people were being hired for reasons other than merit.

Anyway, my lack of experience in this area would seem to suggest I shouldn't be talking about it. So I won't. And as much as I'd have been interested in your replies to the other points i raised, there's no obligation.


----------



## el-bo

dzilizzi said:


> it is hard to say what is really insulting and what is just not polite, like using a regular swear word.
> 
> I've also noticed that what is "politically correct" changes over time and what people liked or didn't mind being called (i.e. girls vs gals vs ladies vs women) also changes. Also, what people will call themselves versus what they will allow others to call them can be different. It can be hard to keep up. And the tone of voice that might determine if it is intended to be an insult or not gets lost a lot online.


It's a minefield, f'sure. However, within the context of an open and generally friendly forum such faux-pas (plural?) are normally easily clarified.


----------



## Trash Panda

A lot of people in this thread defending bad behavior and telling others to suck it up could benefit a lot from learning some empathy. For those who confuse that word with sympathy, it's about putting yourself into someone else's shoes and trying to understand their experiences.

It's very easy to dismiss "just words" when you haven't been on the receiving end of constant prejudice, both explicit and implicit, every single day of your life. The phrase "death by a thousand paper cuts comes to mind" as a very apt way to describe it.

One derogatory word said in an "inoffensive" context, a touch on the shoulder from a stranger, these seem like little things in a vacuum. Add in a lifetime of experiences with these little offenses combined with more overt ones and sometimes that "harmless" gesture or comment is the straw the breaks the camel's back.


----------



## Alex Fraser

dzilizzi said:


> I kind of wonder if this is like the C U Next Tuesday word that is a very insulting word in the U.S. describing women only, but is a normal curse word used to describe both men and women in Britain and Australia (and maybe other countries?) It kind of shocked me the first time I heard a bunch of British guys calling each other that.


In the UK, it's used as an insult saved for when nothing else will suffice. Like pressing the nuclear button, if you will. But a bunch of guys calling each other that is a bunch you probably want to avoid, regardless of one's gender. 👍

My wife will only allow me to use it in extreme, justified circumstances. Like when Boris is on the TV. 😏

Edit: I should also add - given the context of this thread - in the UK it's an insult usually given _to a man_, paradoxically.


----------



## alexen2916

kgdrum said:


> I understand this move but imo this is political correctness at the extreme. The term was a play on a similar term:Gear-Maniac,even with a new name I will always be a ❤️ SLUT ❤️





Trash Panda said:


> A lot of people in this thread defending bad behavior and telling others to suck it up could benefit a lot from learning some empathy. For those who confuse that word with sympathy, it's about putting yourself into someone else's shoes and trying to understand their experiences.
> 
> It's very easy to dismiss "just words" when you haven't been on the receiving end of constant prejudice, both explicit and implicit, every single day of your life. The phrase "death by a thousand paper cuts comes to mind" as a very apt way to describe it.
> 
> One derogatory word said in an "inoffensive" context, a touch on the shoulder from a stranger, these seem like little things in a vacuum. Add in a lifetime of experiences with these little offenses combined with more overt ones and sometimes that "harmless" gesture or comment is the straw the breaks the camel's back.


It says a lot that dismissive comments elsewhere in this thread have garnered some support and this apparently less so. Either way I concur.

'Gearslutz' was a tacky name 10 years ago, and it remains so today.


----------



## Zero&One

Alex Fraser said:


> In the UK, it's used as an insult saved for when nothing else will suffice. Like pressing the nuclear button, if you will. But a bunch of guys calling each other that is a bunch you probably want to avoid, regardless of one's gender. 👍
> 
> My wife will only allow me to use it in extreme, justified circumstances. Like when Boris is on the TV. 😏


Yes, the nuclear button is a great example. It's still very very insulting here isn't it?
In my UK home town, once that button is pressed... you'd better be a great fighter or have the ability to run fast for several miles.


----------



## Daniel James

Just remember lads this doesn't take away from your ability to refer to yourself as a gear slut. It simply means people who visit that forum now have a choice as to whether or not they want to.

I want to see way more women in our industry of course, I just think our time would be better served building up something new that highlighted their unique voices more prominently than trying to tell something called gearslutz what to be 😂

-DJ


----------



## jononotbono

dzilizzi said:


> that is a very insulting word in the U.S. describing women only,


Sorry man, but this is just not true. I've just been living in NY and they laughed at how much, as an English person, I apparently swear. Sorry, "curse". They said that word is one of the most offensive words to anyone. It is absolutely not to describe women only. It's a fantastical all encompassing gender neutral piece that is guaranteed to give best results no matter what genitalia someone has. What is true though, is that it's hard to beat an English sense of humour. So, Gearslutz is changing it's name. If it offends some people and makes people feel uncomfortable then how can changing it be a bad thing? It personally makes no difference to me as I'm quite a desensitised soul and stopped going to Gearslutz about 15 years ago. Man, talk about going round and round in circles trying to have a conversation in that place. Are there still top professionals there? If so, then it's worth being there but I felt like it was just full of argumentative beginners that all argue about nothing and have no experience on anything they are all arguing about. Hopefully it's not like that anymore and I would definitely start visiting again if so. 

Also, this thread has been horrendous and embarrassing. But truly eye opening. I really wish all the comments weren't deleted. If people want to immortalise themselves in this way, so many of us can instantly see who we never want to work with and avoid at all costs, then why not let them do that! It's a free public service. 😂


----------



## leonardo

A.Dern said:


> I'm not touching my anyone at my sessions unless I'm friends with them. I also expect to not be touched by anyone I don't know without my permission. It's common decency and simply professional behavior.


Just a quick observation on this: it's very much a cultural thing, in latin countries it's very common to touch each other, in Italy people touch other people they have just met all the time, also women do this. In fact this is perceived as expression of spontaneity, vivacity and empathy. Judging from how this "incident" above has been narrated I'm sure that man didn't want to be rude but just spontaneous and enthusiastic. But in a ever more globalized world where the anglo-saxon culture seems to take precedence over everything else I guess these misunderstandings are now inevitable. Clash of cultures...


----------



## el-bo

Alex Fraser said:


> In the UK, it's used as an insult saved for when nothing else will suffice. Like pressing the nuclear button, if you will.


In some contexts is the worse swear-word. It has an interesting etymology and history; one that is till very much in the making i.e the feminist reclamation and owning C***! 

I should probably walk back my previous comment about context, however. The truth is that in the wrong pub you need only look at someone to expect a beating.
Context is definitely important. If a good mate recounts a story of how he'd spent 20 minutes massaging an eq, before realising it had been bypassed, I'd call him a "daft c***", and we'd both have a giggle. If someone on this forum recounted the same story, i wouldn't.



Alex Fraser said:


> But a bunch of guys calling each other that is a bunch you probably want to avoid, regardless of one's gender. 👍


You're probably right. I wouldn't be friends with a c*** like me if you paid me.

I'm out


----------



## Trash Panda

jononotbono said:


> Sorry man, but this is just not true. I've just been living in NY and they laughed at how much, as an English person, I apparently swear. Sorry, "curse".


I wouldn’t use NYC as a barometer for the entire US. That would be like using London as your basis for the entire UK.


----------



## Daniel James

Alex Fraser said:


> In the UK, it's used as an insult saved for when nothing else will suffice. Like pressing the nuclear button, if you will. But a bunch of guys calling each other that is a bunch you probably want to avoid, regardless of one's gender. 👍
> 
> My wife will only allow me to use it in extreme, justified circumstances. Like when Boris is on the TV. 😏
> 
> Edit: I should also add - given the context of this thread - in the UK it's an insult usually given _to a man_, paradoxically.


Oh shut up, You definitely don't speak for the UK on this one mate. Perhaps you grew up in a more protected environment than I, but where I grew up the stronger the insult, the closer you were with that person. That was our culture, its a shame you feel a need to look down upon us, as people to be avoided. Just because we curse a lot, doesnt make us lesser people, we're just not as sensitive to it and can understand the context or intent of words. Grow up.

-DJ

p.s worth pointing out that we never intend to offend anyone when we curse at each other, we come from a culture that assumes you are grown up enough to handle naughty words.


----------



## jononotbono

Trash Panda said:


> I wouldn’t use NYC as a barometer for the entire US. That would be like using London as your basis for the entire UK.


I wasn't living in NYC. 

I was living upstate. Some of it looks like when time stood still. People with their American values and many of which live in their own worlds disconnected from the hustle and bustle of multicultural city life. Such as NYC. I've also lived in the South in the early 90s (my mum still lives down there actually). Same thing there. Sorry, but it's just simply not true that it's only to describe women. I was just pointing that out as from personal experience that I know it's not true. But hey, people can believe anything they want. 

Anyway, I'd love to go through the history of swearing but as an Englishman, why would I bother! 😂


----------



## dzilizzi

jononotbono said:


> Sorry man, but this is just not true. I've just been living in NY and they laughed at how much, as an English person, I apparently swear. Sorry, "curse". They said that word is one of the most offensive words to anyone. It is absolutely not to describe women only. It's a fantastical all encompassing gender neutral piece that is guaranteed to give best results no matter what genitalia someone has. What is true though, is that it's hard to beat an English sense of humour. So, Gearslutz is changing it's name. If it offends some people and makes people feel uncomfortable then how can changing it be a bad thing? It personally makes no difference to me as I'm quite a desensitised soul and stopped going to Gearslutz about 15 years ago. Man, talk about going round and round in circles trying to have a conversation in that place. Are there still top professionals there? If so, then it's worth being there but I felt like it was just full of argumentative beginners that all argue about nothing and have no experience on anything they are all arguing about. Hopefully it's not like that anymore and I would definitely start visiting again if so.
> 
> Also, this thread has been horrendous and embarrassing. But truly eye opening. I really wish all the comments weren't deleted. If people want to immortalise themselves in this way, so many of us can instantly see who we never want to work with and avoid at all costs, then why not let them do that! It's a free public service. 😂


Female here. Yes, the C-word in the U.S. has for years (I heard it back in the 70's) referred to women and was usually said by men who didn't get their way. Usually combined with the B-word. I have never heard it refer to a man until the last few years. 

I grew up with 3 brothers, played with Hotwheels along with my Barbies, worked in a lot of male dominated fields as well as female dominated fields. They are both pretty nasty at times. I learnt very young to ignore all the BS otherwise you waste your life worrying about what others think which is something you can't control. 

I do agree that they make it very hard to break into these fields. And it is not just music. I am in a field were the upper management is primarily white male. And most of the recent promotions have been men. Not sure how much of that was because primarily men applied? I was on a recent selection committee, and there were no women in the pool. It is hard to believe no qualified women applied. But now I'm getting way off topic.


----------



## Loïc D

leonardo said:


> Just a quick observation on this: it's very much a cultural thing, in latin countries it's very common to touch each other, in Italy people touch other people they have just met all the time, also women do this. In fact this is perceived as expression of spontaneity, vivacity and empathy. Judging from how this "incident" above has been narrated I'm sure that man didn't want to be rude but just spontaneous and enthusiastic. But in a ever more globalized world where the anglo-saxon culture seems to take precedence over everything else I guess these misunderstandings are now inevitable. Clash of cultures...



In France it depends on the region. People are more tactile in the South but we don’t touch ourselves so much.
Save the bise, which is just the normal way to say hello, totally non sexual.

I have a very respectful education regarding the genres and minorities, I’ve always had managers/colleagues/friends or foes of any genre or colour. In fact, I don’t care at all, I don’t even consider it.

Of course, as a white middle aged male, I live the “comfortable” situation. 

Thus, I’m utterly shocked and disgussed when I read testimonials of women being harassed in daily working situations - it’s now notorious in the art industry but not only here.

What kind of education some men had is totally beyond my understanding...


----------



## Alex Fraser

Daniel James said:


> Oh shut up, You definitely don't speak for the UK on this one mate. Perhaps you grew up in a more protected environment than I, but where I grew up the stronger the insult, the closer you were with that person. That was our culture, its a shame you feel a need to look down upon us, as people to be avoided. Just because we curse a lot, doesnt make us lesser people, we're just not as sensitive to it and can understand the context or intent of words. Grow up.
> 
> -DJ
> 
> p.s worth pointing out that we never intend to offend anyone when we curse at each other, we come from a culture that assumes you are grown up enough to handle naughty words.


Are...you joking?

I’m quite happy to insult my own mates using that term in the right context and situation. 

I think you might have misread me there, DJ. Let’s put it down to “internet tone.”
A


----------



## Trash Panda

jononotbono said:


> I wasn't living in NYC.
> 
> I was living upstate. Some of it looks like when time stood still. People with their American values and many of which live in their own worlds disconnected from the hustle and bustle of multicultural city life. Such as NYC. I've also lived in the South in the early 90s (my mum still lives down there actually). Same thing there. Sorry, but it's just simply not true that it's only to describe women. I was just pointing that out as from personal experience that I know it's not true. But hey, people can believe anything they want.
> 
> Anyway, I'd love to go through the history of swearing but as an Englishman, why would I bother! 😂


Your relatively limited experience does not nullify and void the experiences of others. I grew up in the South. You're very much incorrect in your assertions here.


----------



## Daniel James

Alex Fraser said:


> Are...you joking?
> 
> I’m quite happy to insult my own mates using that term in the right context and situation.
> 
> I think you might have misread me there, DJ. Let’s put it down to “internet tone.”
> A


"But a bunch of guys calling each other that is a bunch you probably want to avoid, regardless of one's gender." - seemed pretty straightforward.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Daniel James said:


> "But a bunch of guys calling each other that is a bunch you probably want to avoid, regardless of one's gender." - seemed pretty straightforward.


Yeah, but I wasn’t referring to a group of mates or family engaging in friendly banter. Perhaps I should have been clear. I get where you’re coming from but that wasn’t where I was trying to go with it. 

It does tickle me though, that your internal image of me is some sort of Rees Mogg on Vi Control. 🧐😉

Let’s move on.


----------



## jononotbono

dzilizzi said:


> Female here. Yes, the C-word in the U.S. has for years (I heard it back in the 70's) referred to women and was usually said by men who didn't get their way. Usually combined with the B-word. I have never heard it refer to a man until the last few years.
> 
> I grew up with 3 brothers, played with Hotwheels along with my Barbies, worked in a lot of male dominated fields as well as female dominated fields. They are both pretty nasty at times. I learnt very young to ignore all the BS otherwise you waste your life worrying about what others think which is something you can't control.
> 
> I do agree that they make it very hard to break into these fields. And it is not just music. I am in a field were the upper management is primarily white male. And most of the recent promotions have been men. Not sure how much of that was because primarily men applied? I was on a recent selection committee, and there were no women in the pool. It is hard to believe no qualified women applied. But now I'm getting way off topic.


In my experiences whilst living in the US, I have had many Americans tell me that both men and women are completely insulted by it. Walk into the wrong bar and get into serious fight situations to it kind of offence. People I have worked with were telling me this when laughing at how flippantly I have said it and not evening knowing I have so they warned me to avoid it. In England it is so different. The English can literally use it as a term of endearment or as a serious insult. It's a very versatile system we have got going on over here. 😂

What always angers me is when I hear that men usually get paid more than women for doing the SAME job! And I just can't comprehend it. Everyone in my life and everyone I meet is completely equal. How the fuck can people not be! However, I do live in the real world (at times) and it's depressing knowing that things are always so imbalanced and unfair. It's disgraceful. Anyway...

I wasn't starting some kind of online fight with you by the way. It's just have experienced something opposite to what you have said and I felt like piping up about. Fuck knows why. I usually just stick with music posts as that's why I come here... And now I'm going off topic. 

Right I need to get back to some music. Making drum beats out of sail boat rope sounds. 😂


----------



## jononotbono

Trash Panda said:


> Your relatively limited experience does not nullify and void the experiences of others. I grew up in the South. You're very much incorrect in your assertions here.


Hey man, you have different experiences to me. Cool.


----------



## chrisr

A very good mate of mine, who until last year had the awesome job of "automation globetrotter" for Cirque do Soleil uses the word "Custard" thus combining one bad curse word with one tame one. This seemed like the right time to share this with the outside world.


----------



## Denkii

GearSimps.
GASlight.
So many options...

I really don't care what they are called and I can see why they change the name.
I can also see why someone would feel offended by it - which is anyone's right to feel whatever they feel.
I also believe that it should not be anyone's business what their name is except their own.
Like... I could start a company or a forum or whatever and for as long as I don't do something illegal with the name, I can call it [enter random insult or demeaning word here] and after that it's anyone else's right to avoid my business if they don't want to support someone who names their business like that. No one should feel entitled to demand that they change their name only because they feel offended - that's ridiculous.

Is it virtue signaling? Is it coming from an honest opinion about the topic?
I won't ever know for sure but can absolutely respect the move and Jules' statement felt honest and modest enough for me.

Depending on the depth of rebranding, they lose a lot of their identity regardless of whether or not this name is silly or insulting to anyone. It could also grant them more respect-points and trust than before.

Nice and bold move.

I could live without a lot of pseudo SJW feeling insulted by proxy talk around it though.


----------



## chrisr

Also reminded of a relative who met someone at a garden party. She knew that they had met before and that his name was a "rude word" with an "L" in it...

She gambled: "so nice to meet you again Mr Flucker.." she said.

"It's Mr Klunt." he replied, awkwardly. True story.


----------



## bbunker

Alex Fraser said:


> Yeah, but I wasn’t referring to a group of mates or family engaging in friendly banter. Perhaps I should have been clear. I get where you’re coming from but that wasn’t where I was trying to go with it.
> 
> It does tickle me though, that your internal image of me is some sort of Rees Mogg on Vi Control. 🧐😉
> 
> Let’s move on.


I don't have anything to contribute - but if you don't change your profile pic right quick to Rees-Mogg in a top hat playing synthesizers you've failed the internet


----------



## Alex Fraser

bbunker said:


> I don't have anything to contribute - but if you don't change your profile pic right quick to Rees-Mogg in a top hat playing synthesizers you've failed the internet


If i wasn’t currently making dinner for three hungry kids, I’d be on that immediately. 😅


----------



## Daniel James

Alex Fraser said:


> Yeah, but I wasn’t referring to a group of mates or family engaging in friendly banter. Perhaps I should have been clear. I get where you’re coming from but that wasn’t where I was trying to go with it.
> 
> It does tickle me though, that your internal image of me is some sort of Rees Mogg on Vi Control. 🧐😉
> 
> Let’s move on.


Oh no mate, thats my bad then. I apologise. I call out things I see as inconsistent with my own beliefs, and the way that was worded looked like you said you should avoid groups that talk to each other like that.

My bad, i'll delete that comment if you want, although I know I annoy Mike a bit when I do that so ill leave it be until told otherwise.

-DJ

p.s my bad you c.... nevermind 😂


----------



## Gerbil

bbunker said:


> I don't have anything to contribute - but if you don't change your profile pic right quick to Rees-Mogg in a top hat playing synthesizers you've failed the internet


Do you know that Rees-Mogg is younger than Kylie Minogue? That's absolutely crazy.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Daniel James said:


> Oh shut up, You definitely don't speak for the UK on this one mate. Perhaps you grew up in a more protected environment than I, but where I grew up the stronger the insult, the closer you were with that person. That was our culture, its a shame you feel a need to look down upon us, as people to be avoided. Just because we curse a lot, doesnt make us lesser people, we're just not as sensitive to it and can understand the context or intent of words. Grow up.
> 
> -DJ
> 
> p.s worth pointing out that we never intend to offend anyone when we curse at each other, we come from a culture that assumes you are grown up enough to handle naughty words.


Here in Scotland it's used as a greeting  

Seriously though we do swear and insult each other a lot here - I think a lot of it comes from the culture here of "winding people up" where you can just have good banter insulting each other, being able to give it and take it without any offence actually being taken from either side, to the point where it's so casual you start using swear words to supplement... 

But we're actually also a great bunch of polite people with manners, who just happen to squeeze a swear word in every few words.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Daniel James said:


> Oh no mate, thats my bad then. I apologise. I call out things I see as inconsistent with my own beliefs, and the way that was worded looked like you said you should avoid groups that talk to each other like that.
> 
> My bad, i'll delete that comment if you want, although I know I annoy Mike a bit when I do that so ill leave it be until told otherwise.
> 
> -DJ
> 
> p.s my bad you c.... nevermind 😂


Nah mate, it’s all good. Leave it in place. I could have been clearer too.
I stand by my comment about BJ though. 😉


----------



## Daniel James

Alex Fraser said:


> Nah mate, it’s all good. Leave it in place. I could have been clearer too.
> I stand by my comment about BJ though. 😉


.......Boris Johnson!!. For a second I though you had made me a proposition I overlooked 😂

-DJ


----------



## bbunker

Gerbil said:


> Do you know that Rees-Mogg is younger than Kylie Minogue? That's absolutely crazy.


I mean officially he's younger, but it depends on whether you count just the years since he slinked out of his coffin this time to emerge from his crypt of desolation or if you count all of them, in which case he's marginally younger than chalk.


----------



## dzilizzi

jononotbono said:


> In my experiences whilst living in the US, I have had many Americans tell me that both men and women are completely insulted by it. Walk into the wrong bar and get into serious fight situations to it kind of offence. People I have worked with were telling me this when laughing at how flippantly I have said it and not evening knowing I have so they warned me to avoid it. In England it is so different. The English can literally use it as a term of endearment or as a serious insult. It's a very versatile system we have got going on over here. 😂
> 
> What always angers me is when I hear that men usually get paid more than women for doing the SAME job! And I just can't comprehend it. Everyone in my life and everyone I meet is completely equal. How the fuck can people not be! However, I do live in the real world (at times) and it's depressing knowing that things are always so imbalanced and unfair. It's disgraceful. Anyway...
> 
> I wasn't starting some kind of online fight with you by the way. It's just have experienced something opposite to what you have said and I felt like piping up about. Fuck knows why. I usually just stick with music posts as that's why I come here... And now I'm going off topic.
> 
> Right I need to get back to some music. Making drum beats out of sail boat rope sounds. 😂


I misunderstood what you meant as in they didn't see it as insulting at all when you meant just the opposite. I apologize for going off on you. I'm an old married lady now, so I haven't been called it in a long time. And I don't really hang out in places where it would be used on men. It was generally directed at women, and maybe gay men, when I was in the dating scene. I think things have changed as it was usually men using the term, but now I see women use it as well on other women, which is sad. 

Equal pay for equal work is a whole other topic..... It is better than it was, but still no where near equal.


----------



## rottoy

There's some mighty impressive circular discourse in here!
Instead of dishing out moral reprimands amongst friends and colleagues, 
why not get back to the pressing issue of whether or not *true legato* ultimately matters?


----------



## bbunker

Daniel James said:


> Heh you said you didn't get what I was saying and then summed it up perfectly at the end.
> 
> Thats my point. I will always just be me and act in accordance to my culture, who I am as a human being. But I will never _impose_ that on others. With friends, my youtube, my stream are all places where I will be myself and people can decide if that for them. I would not however randomly go up to someone for the first time and call them a c...and expect them to get it, then be mad if they got offended. Thats my fault for imposing my ways onto someone without their implicit consent. As you said if someone is offended by me as a human being, on my platforms, that is on them.
> 
> I think I understand what you are getting at now, at its definitely more the last paragraph than the first few.
> 
> And as I keep saying, context is king here. I might call my mates a c.... but if my nan is in the room I wouldn't obviously......not saying my nan is a c there 😂 I just mean I wouldnt use that word in front of her because it offends her. Im not a monster!
> 
> -DJ


Daniel James in the heat of an epic game of poker with his mates calls one of them a c.... in front of his nan: deleted scene #27 from "A bit of Fry and Laurie - the Greatest Hits"

Stephen Fry's playing his nan.

I'd buy that DVD.


----------



## dzilizzi

rottoy said:


> There's some mighty impressive circular discourse in here!
> Instead of dishing out moral reprimands amongst friends and colleagues,
> why not get back to the pressing issue of whether or not *true legato* ultimately matters?


Only if it is also POWER LEGATO!


----------



## Daniel James

bbunker said:


> Daniel James in the heat of an epic game of poker with his mates calls one of them a c.... in front of his nan: deleted scene #27 from "A bit of Fry and Laurie - the Greatest Hits"
> 
> Stephen Fry's playing his nan.
> 
> I'd buy that DVD.


Shes getting on a bit, but she would still kick seven shades of shit out of me if I said C infront of her. She knows I say it, but so long as its not infront of her she is content enough with life 😂

-DJ


----------



## Alex Fraser

Daniel James said:


> Shes getting on a bit, but she would still kick seven shades of shit out of me if I said C infront of her. She knows I say it, but so long as its not infront of her she is content enough with life 😂
> 
> -DJ


I think I speak for everyone in requesting your Nan makes a Zoom appearance in your next video.


----------



## asherpope

el-bo said:


> I'm sure it's the same as in most languages, i.e context-dependent. Calling your mates c****, in the context of joking around, is just fun and games. Calling a stranger a ****, in the wrong kind of pub might result in a broken bottle inserted into your face.


Nah the rule is -
Call your mates C**t and call someone you're trying to pick a fight with 'mate'


----------



## Daniel James

asherpope said:


> Nah the rule is -
> Call your mates C**t and call someone you're trying to pick a fight with 'mate'


Depends on the inflection of the way you say mate. It is quite the versatile word!

-DJ


----------



## jononotbono

dzilizzi said:


> I misunderstood what you meant as in they didn't see it as insulting at all when you meant just the opposite. I apologize for going off on you. I'm an old married lady now, so I haven't been called it in a long time. And I don't really hang out in places where it would be used on men. It was generally directed at women, and maybe gay men, when I was in the dating scene. I think things have changed as it was usually men using the term, but now I see women use it as well on other women, which is sad.
> 
> Equal pay for equal work is a whole other topic..... It is better than it was, but still no where near equal.


No need to apologise! It’s all good! 

So... whose gonna make a petition to get the name of VI-C changed to Gearslutz? Looks like that names up for grabs! 😂


----------



## CT

jononotbono said:


> No need to apologise! It’s all good!
> 
> So... whose gonna make a petition to get the name of VI-C changed to Gearslutz? Looks like that names up for grabs! 😂


I do think we're due for a name change. Nobody here is remotely in control of their VIs.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Mike T said:


> I do think we're due for a name change. Nobody here is remotely in control of their VIs.


What if it's actually the opposite? What if it's the VI's that are in control of us? They control our minds and make us buy every shiny new release.


----------



## Virtuoso

Daniel James said:


> Depends on the inflection of the way you say mate. It is quite the versatile word!


- How do you get an old lady to say C*nt?
- Shout 'Bingo!'


----------



## chocobitz825

i imagine the previous name was always acceptable for an audience who could jokingly refer to themselves as sl*ts at their leisure. though the title never sat well with me, i cannot accurately imagine what it feels like to be called that word maliciously during my lifetime, and then be underrepresented and under appreciated in an industry and have to participate in a site named like that. 

I respect their proactive choice. No doubt its been a less than perfect brand name for all involved, even if you remove it from the derogatory issues.


----------



## el-bo

Alex Fraser said:


> Are...you joking?
> 
> I’m quite happy to insult my own mates using that term in the right context and situation.
> 
> I think you might have misread me there, DJ. Let’s put it down to “internet tone.”
> A


Are you sure he/we misread you? You seemed pretty clear.


----------



## el-bo

asherpope said:


> Nah the rule is -
> Call your mates C**t and call someone you're trying to pick a fight with 'mate'


Now we're cooking


----------



## el-bo

The marriage of two off-topic themes of this thread:


----------



## darkogav

Probably a good idea by GS to change that name. You did not want to be caught browsing that site with that logo clearly visible at top on your screen by someone who has no idea it's a site for music.


----------



## Alex Fraser

el-bo said:


> Are you sure he/we misread you? You seemed pretty clear.


All cleared up now, mate. I've no desire to tread over it again.

I don't know about you, but I feel the time I spent yesterday chewing over the finer points of using the _C U Next Tuesday_ word instead of actually working...well...it's not what they recommend in productivity books is it? 😉

Quite happy to bow out of the conversation now.
A


----------



## Collywobbles

Alex Fraser said:


> All cleared up now, _*mate.*_


Uh oh, _now _you've put your foot in it, them's fightin words!


----------



## el-bo

Alex Fraser said:


> All cleared up now, mate. I've no desire to tread over it again.
> 
> I don't know about you, but I feel the time I spent yesterday chewing over the finer points of using the _C U Next Tuesday_ word instead of actually working...well...it's not what they recommend in productivity books is it? 😉
> 
> Quite happy to bow out of the conversation now.
> A


ok.


----------



## Jeast

If this still is the kind of stuff that we are bothered with as a people, even during this pandemic, we are either very bored or very prosperous (yes the answer is both ) If some of use got a real-life delete button, the world would be empty of everything.


----------



## el-bo

Jeast said:


> If this still is the kind of stuff that we are bothered with as a people, even during this pandemic, we are either very bored or very prosperous (yes the answer is both ).


"The ticking of the clock inexorably goes on" ~ _David Sylvian_. 

Pandemic or not, life will prevail; and with it, all the mundanity and minutia that help glue the bigger pieces together. If you find it to be beneath you, there are certainly more worthwhile things with which to pass the time


----------



## Hadrondrift

Collywobbles said:


> Uh oh, _now _you've put your foot in it, them's fightin words!


----------



## kgdrum

chrisr said:


> Also reminded of a relative who met someone at a garden party. She knew that they had met before and that his name was a "rude word" with an "L" in it...
> 
> She gambled: "so nice to meet you again Mr Flucker.." she said.
> 
> "It's Mr Klunt." he replied, awkwardly. True story.


I have an old friend who is an amazing salesman that also has a wicked sense of humor that’s not always appropriate for everyone.
One day a gentleman comes into his office for a sales presentation and the gentleman’s name is Mr.Kuntz...........
Eddie could not this opportunity go unaddressed,lol
Repeatedly Eddie would pronounce the “potential client’s” name without the z.
Continually talking in an extremely deferential tone while repeatedly addressing the gentleman by mispronouncing poor Mr. Kuntz name.
The gentleman kept on trying to correct Eddie on the correct pronunciation of his name getting more exasperated each time Eddie would address him incorrectly.
Eddie kept mispronouncing his name acting totally oblivious to the subtle difference between Mr.Kuntz and Mr. Kunt,needless to say Eddie actually made the sale that day,lol
But not until Eddie had the joy of addressing poor Mr.Kuntz incorrectly at least 20-30 times.
True story.


----------



## JohnG

In situations like this, it's pretty hard for those not subjected to prejudice, exclusion, or even just discomfort to really understand the issue. That goes for race, gender, preference, education, wealth -- all the caste markers that we know affect others and don't, or rarely, affect us.

Accordingly, I think those of us who haven't been called names should listen to and learn from the class of people that have been / could be called those names.


----------



## Mike Greene

gpax said:


> I am sad as I realize just how much I do not want to participate at VI-Control anymore - after seven years.
> 
> For sure, it’s grown in its diverse makeup by leaps and bounds, yet when it comes to how gender and gender-related issues are discussed, things are not changing nearly fast enough for my hopes. It is a kind of inertia that I regard as being thwarted, like the saying goes: two steps forward; one step back.
> 
> I’m pondering how I got deleted from that certain “gender only” thread, because, as I interpret things, someone else determined that I am defined by anatomy, or perhaps presumed that my intellect is determined by what is between my legs.
> 
> Not so, of course. But erased as I was from that thread, because of presumed gender identity, I absolutely do not identify with the strand of male-speak here that asserts, with self-assured certainty, what gender is, including those who scoff at so-called political correctness in a kind of self-preserving territorial stance. Yet, I respect their sense of identity insofar as it does not dominate, or is given a pass when sexist memes and/or language gets tossed about.
> 
> But I can’t get beyond the notion of a forum that now invokes gender labels for who can post in specific threads. That does not sit well with me at all, including a sense of being grouped with some of the boys, so to speak. But this is not the battle I want to fight right now, and I’m an idiot for presuming it is my place to try and affect change. The choice I have is clear.
> 
> In parting, I do sincerely think that VI-Control would be much better served by adding moderators to the mix who speak with a more gender-diverse, and even non-gender-binding perspective. To that end, I also maintain that the standing forum guideline which argues for sexist language to be understood as sometimes being “contextual,” is the most regrettable mantel I pass under each and every time I have contributed here.
> 
> While I don’t wish to participate anymore, I am grateful for the resources and skills I have also gleaned from the wealth of members who contribute, all of which has helped to make my music so much better these several years.


I'm sorry to see you go. I stand by my choice to make the other thread Women-Only, though. I dare say this thread (especially before I made the mass-deletions of posts yesterday) bears out why.

No doubt many people were angry (in some cases, justifiably angry) that their voices were squelched in the Women-Only thread, but I believe that resulted in a far more useful resource than having women's posts buried on page 5 or 10 or 20 of a sausage fest. (Assuming they would have posted _at all_ if that thread were a free-for-all like this one was.)

To your point - I do understand that there are gender-binary issues (LGBT Center is my next door neighbor, by the way, and they're here in my studio all the time,) but the bottom line is that having met you in person, I'm reasonably sure that being called a "slut" has not been an issue for you, so I removed your post, along with dozens of others. Maybe I'm wrong, in which case I apologize for the error, but regarding the topic at hand (the Gearslutz name), there is indeed a category of person for whom the word slut is more personal, and I don't think you're in that group.

That's not to say their voices are the only ones that count, of course, but we had a unique opportunity here to create a more welcoming space for those voices to be heard, so I took it. Was I too harsh, or should I have allowed certain other related issues? Maybe. But given my limited imagination and intellectual resources, I'm doing the best I can. 

Consider the big picture here - I made a Women-Only thread. You gotta admit, that's a total lib/cuck/SJW/PC move, right? Even my wife thought, for once, that I'm not the ass that I usually am. So I fully expected the Rush Limbaugh crowd to pounce on this. But what baffles me is that I'm getting way more heat from the people whose side I'm actually on. Intent be damned, it's perfection or nothing.

Again, I'm sorry to see you go, but trying to please everyone is a game I'll never win. If someone thinks the forum is so intolerable that they have to leave, then sure, I'll listen. But that should be a 2-way street.


----------



## Toecutter

Dumb disrespectful name, glad it's gone. Women deserve better!

And the singer that got blacklisted has every right to react the way she reacted. Stop touching women without their permission, no matter how friendly and innocent you think it may be. Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins.


----------



## dzilizzi

Toecutter said:


> Dumb disrespectful name, glad it's gone. Women deserve better!
> 
> And the singer that got blacklisted has every right to react the way she reacted. Stop touching women without their permission, no matter how friendly and innocent you think it may be. Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins.


I kind of get why she was kicked out. But someone should have talked to her before they blacklisted her. 

The first time someone touches you in a manner that would be considered polite (a tap on the shoulder, a slight nudge to your arm to get your attention), you say quietly "please don't touch me, I don't like to be touched" and that should be it. No more touching.  Now if it happens again? Her reaction would have been perfectly acceptable with the added "I already asked you not to touch me!" Very loudly. Then he looks like the bad guy and not her. Until you let them know that normal touch is not wanted, you can't be offended. 

But I also get that in the past, she may have had to put up with a lot of unwanted touching that may not have been "polite" and she is reacting to more than what happened there. I personally don't like a lot of touching but have had family and friends of both sexes that are "huggers". Sometimes you have to either learn to be comfortable with it or get new friends and family.


----------



## Toecutter

dzilizzi said:


> I kind of get why she was kicked out. But someone should have talked to her before they blacklisted her.
> 
> The first time someone touches you in a manner that would be considered polite (a tap on the shoulder, a slight nudge to your arm to get your attention), you say quietly "please don't touch me, I don't like to be touched" and that should be it. No more touching. Now if it happens again? Her reaction would have been perfectly acceptable with the added "I already asked you not to touch me!" Very loudly. Then he looks like the bad guy and not her. Until you let them know that normal touch is not wanted, you can't be offended.
> 
> But I also get that in the past, she may have had to put up with a lot of unwanted touching that may not have been "polite" and she is reacting to more than what happened there. I personally don't like a lot of touching but have had family and friends of both sexes that are "huggers". Sometimes you have to either learn to be comfortable with it or get new friends and family.


I totally agree that in a perfect world that would be the expected (??) way to react. But this world is far from perfect so we never know. I have no idea what that woman went through, we heard a one-sided account of what happened, and maybe the "nice sax player" wasn't that nice after all? Even if that was a genuinely friendly innocent tap on her shoulder, ask first. Better be safe than sorry, show some respect and don't touch people without their permission, especially in a professional environment.

Sorry it just pisses me off when people (not talking about you btw!!) try to normalize creepy behavior and put the blame on the victim. That's basically what women go through on a daily basis since the beginning of time. I'm not a woman so I have no idea what you actually feel but I have a mother, a wife and a daughter and what I hear is not pretty... the fact that "VivianSings" didn't take her time to actually talk to the singer and ask "hey, are you alright? Did something happen? Sax player didn't mean to violate your personal space, it was just a misunderstanding" just shows how women are still pretty much meaningless in the grand scheme of things. 

"Call it what you want but I probably just gave you the best advice to getting anywhere in this business. Toughen up, buttercup." This advice is flawed, not everyone is a heartless schmuk in his business!


----------



## chocobitz825

I get the feeling that if GS had changed their name without saying why, there'd be far less conversation about it. Somehow the idea that its done to potentially serve the interests of one group and their "agenda" has caused a surprisingly large group of people to be offended by the offended.... 

What's weird is, I cant seem to find any particularly offended party that caused the name to change. It sounds like GS made this decision on their own, so I cant see how this was some sign of pressure to conform to snowflake progressives. How is it that so many people have such a heated response when someone says "I'm changing my name".....isn't that the most ridiculous part?


----------



## chrisr

I was initially a bit miffed at your decision @Mike Greene but with the benefit of hindsight that's become less so, simply because the post itself ended up being pretty good. I think there were a couple of people who were encouraged to post that might not have done otherwise... but then we lose someone who is one of the more eloquent contributors here.

I do sympathise that for some people the right to declare their own gender, regardless of what you decide they are, is an absolute fundamental right. It would be pretty galling if you identify as a woman to be excluded because a third party who's met you has decided you're a man. Perhaps a future policy of "people who identify as... " might be better - harder to police though i realise. There's also a really questionable issue about assuming/assigning ownership of words. It sets a precedent. And yes of course you're in a fairly impossible situation which ever way you look at it - it's clear you're really trying your best though - which is appreciated. Must have been a v busy couple of days for you.

@gpax - I'd be interested to hear before you go, what it was that you wanted to say in the other thread that was deleted?


----------



## Digivolt

chocobitz825 said:


> I get the feeling that if GS had changed their name without saying why, there'd be far less conversation about it. Somehow the idea that its done to potentially serve the interests of one group and their "agenda" has caused a surprisingly large group of people to be offended by the offended....
> 
> What's weird is, I cant seem to find any particularly offended party that caused the name to change. It sounds like GS made this decision on their own, so I cant see how this was some sign of pressure to conform to snowflake progressives. How is it that so many people have such a heated response when someone says "I'm changing my name".....isn't that the most ridiculous part?


Didn't it stem from this - https://www.change.org/p/gearslutz-gearslutz-please-change-your-name/u/28382012

They seemed happy to keep the name despite it not being professional for over a decade so the decision to suddenly change now just seems forced


----------



## chrisr

chocobitz825 said:


> What's weird is, I cant seem to find any particularly offended party that caused the name to change. It sounds like GS made this decision on their own



My deleted contribution to the women only thread would have helped you there. It was literally just a hyperlink to the petition that Mike was referring to without further comment. I should have asked my wife or one of my two daughters to post it.


----------



## Paul Grymaud

Will You still analyse "hybrid products" ?


----------



## chocobitz825

Digivolt said:


> Didn't it stem from this - https://www.change.org/p/gearslutz-gearslutz-please-change-your-name/u/28382012
> 
> They seemed happy to keep the name despite it not being professional for over a decade so the decision to suddenly change now just seems forced


I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Happy to see that name changed.


----------



## Mike Greene

chrisr said:


> I do sympathise that for some people the right to declare their own gender, regardless of what you decide they are, is an absolute fundamental right. It would be pretty galling if you identify as a woman to be excluded because a third party who's met you has decided you're a man.


I didn't decide he's a man, and I'm fine with however (s)he, or anyone else, wants to identify. Believe me, I'm an ally. (Although this experience is teaching me why the right wing hates us so much. Even with people who should know me, I'm walking on fucking eggshells for fear I might offend someone.)

Does gpax have history with the word "slut" to the extent that their contribution to that thread would be relevant? I'm guessing not. In fact, gpax's post in the original thread (I can repost it here if (s)he's cool with that) had nothing to do with experiences being called slut or anything of the sort.

The post (like so many others that I deleted) was mostly an argument about why I shouldn't be limiting the thread to only women. And why this forum has sexism problems of its own. Certainly valid arguments, but as I've said time and time again, each of those posts pushes the women's posts (the posts we care about) further and further back onto page 4, page 9, page 15 ... (I seriously can't believe I have to keep explaining this.)



chrisr said:


> My deleted contribution to the women only thread would have helped you there. It was literally just a hyperlink to the petition that Mike was referring to without further comment.


My decision to not post a link in the first thread was intentional (otherwise I would have done it myself,) because I wanted as little outside influence as possible. The petition obviously makes a case, without rebuttal, for changing the name, so obviously anyone who reads it would be influenced by that. Polling 101.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

...none of which is to say that there aren't terms that really are offensive. And that English guy in the video going on about why the name should be changed does make a fair point: if a term offends people, why use it.

So if someone really is offended by gearslutz, okay. Now, you'd hope that people would be able to modulate their outrage and focus it more meaningfully, and also have a little perspective (given all that's going on in the world right now, such as 250 covid deaths a day in Los Angeles County alone).

But whatevvah.


----------



## chocobitz825

Nick Batzdorf said:


> ...none of which is to say that there aren't terms that really are offensive. And that English guy in the video going on about why the name should be changed does make a fair point: if a term offends people, why use it.
> 
> So if someone really is offended by gearslutz, okay. Now, you'd hope that people would be able to modulate their outrage and focus it more meaningfully, and also have a little perspective (given all that's going on in the world right now, such as 250 covid deaths a day in Los Angeles County alone).
> 
> But whatevvah.


I find myself asking why anyone fights so hard for that word. How is it so important to anyone's daily life that they would feel a massive loss from no longer using it? the damage it does in malicious use is no doubt far more important than any benefits people feel they have from using it. Changing the words we use is such a common thing anyway, why is this such a massive problem? I don't go around saying things are groovy and out of sight. If I said they were cool and gnarly, it'd also be out of date. I'm not even sure if people still say things are "lit". let's just consider that word out of date and move on.


----------



## Proteinshake

kgdrum said:


> I understand this move but imo this is political correctness at the extreme.


Lead by a bunch of Slutz. Either way .. whatever the new name will be, it will be forgotten soon. If nobody is talking about you anymore, you might as well be dead.


----------



## rgames

Nick Batzdorf said:


> if a term offends people, why use it.


There's some nuance there. The truth is that just about everything offends somebody. People decide whom they're OK offending and adapt their behaviors appropriately.

The way out of that mess is to get away from the "right to not be offended" syndrome. Unless it's something that has *hugely* negative connotations and measureable impact (like the N word) then everyone just needs to accept that there are some things in the world that bug them and sure, you have every right to make your preferences known but we need to get away from a world where we're publicly and continually berating people for doing something that clearly has no harmful consequences (note I said consequences and not intent).

Some relevant examples from my personal experience: I (a white male) have twice been publicly accused of sexist behavior. Once for holding a door open for a woman and once for telling a good female friend, in a group setting, that I thought her hair looked nice. The former incurred a tirade about how I view women as helpless and the latter incurred a tirade about "gender-neutral" conversations and sexual predation.

Of course, neither accusation had any impact on me but the fact remains that we've created a society where these kinds of accusations are now considered OK. In fact, it appears they are encouraged. Such norms create needless tension and, therefore, create a dangerous precedent.

To Mike's point, that's part of the reason why there is such a right-left divide in the country.

I still hold the door open for women (and men) and I still tell someone if think her (or his) hair looks especially nice. At present, I just have to accept that there is a small percentage of people who are offended by that language and behavior. But there are more people who appreciate it, so I will continue using that language and behavior even though it offends some people.

rgames


----------



## easyrider

My post was deleted...I thought I was travelling back to the early 80s as a kid when my dad took me to the Ex Service mans club to play snooker with him....I asked him where are all the women? He said the committee only allow women in on a Thursday...

I thought it was odd then and I certainly think it is odd now to exclude any discourse of human beings both intellectual and social based on gender regardless of the intent....

Never thought I’d see that in a forum in the year 2021....


----------



## easyrider

Mike Greene said:


> Does gpax have history with the word "slut" to the extent that their contribution to that thread would be relevant? I'm guessing not. In fact, gpax's post in the original thread (I can repost it here if (s)he's cool with that) had nothing to do with experiences being called slut or anything of the sort.


Did every women in that thread have experience of being called a slut? As I thought the requisite was being a women, not being a women and having direct experience of being called a slut?


----------



## gpax

Mike Greene said:


> I didn't decide he's a man, and I'm fine with however (s)he, or anyone else, wants to identify. Believe me, I'm an ally. (Although this experience is teaching me why the right wing hates us so much. Even with people who should know me, I'm walking on fucking eggshells for fear I might offend someone.)
> 
> Does gpax have history with the word "slut" to the extent that their contribution to that thread would be relevant? I'm guessing not. In fact, gpax's post in the original thread (I can repost it here if (s)he's cool with that) had nothing to do with experiences being called slut or anything of the sort.
> 
> The post (like so many others that I deleted) was mostly an argument about why I shouldn't be limiting the thread to only women. And why this forum has sexism problems of its own. Certainly valid arguments, but as I've said time and time again, each of those posts pushes the women's posts (the posts we care about) further and further back onto page 4, page 9, page 15 ... (I seriously can't believe I have to keep explaining this.)
> 
> 
> My decision to not post a link in the first thread was intentional (otherwise I would have done it myself,) because I wanted as little outside influence as possible. The petition obviously makes a case, without rebuttal, for changing the name, so obviously anyone who reads it would be influenced by that. Polling 101.


Mike, it bears mentioning publicly that you were very outspoken in dealing with a member who I regarded as gay bashing, and you took a position on this a few months back that I so appreciate. Your sincerity about diversity and inclusion is not in doubt, though I stumble, majorly, over your means and modes of speech where gender discussions are concerned.

I feel a bit taken out of context here, though perhaps because of lack of clarity on my part. Allow me, also, to be self-indulgent with some parting thoughts.

My initial point was to implore you not to be dismissive of, or presume that opinions are informed from a sense of what _you_ determine to be gender appropriate spaces and/or roles.

In this thread, I am not pretending to be something other than what I am, but rather, I’m simply saying I’m far more comfortable sharing thoughts and experiences (and identifying) with my closest women friends. I don’t need to explain this, except to say I also define what makes me male in a way that belongs uniquely to me, not somebody else’s designation or projection of it. I did not mean to cast doubt about my gender or gender identity (as we have met), but was questioning why a perspective on a given topic had to necessarily fit into one side of the binary mold you laid out.

In the two progressive schools where I taught for twenty years, it’s a fundamental developmental no-no to group activities by gender. At play, kids are free to form whatever groups they wish, and identify with whatever gender they choose. In my other adult worlds outside this forum, the only gender-specific spaces where I might venture, are restrooms, those too becoming a relic where I live. In fact, it’s been well over twenty-five years since I’ve been in a community or organization that parsed out an activity by gender. This whole episode here has felt both antiquated and alienating to me. Your defense only adds an exclamation mark, I hate to say.

You are correct that I did not register an opinion about the name of that other forum, and this was intentional. Relative to the discussion, however. I was arguing for more advocacy in asking how VI-Control might clean it’s own house, so long as gender-biased memes and quips still go uncontested in various posts. I said as much in that thread, before it disappeared. Then it was the classic wondering: “was it something I said?”

It never occurred to me I was erased, de facto, “because I was male,” until after another member pointed this out when I asked. It never occurred to me at the time of posting that I was speaking specifically “as a male,” or even necessarily with a so-called male perspective. All of that determination was made by someone else. To be clear, I’m not troubled by a deleted post, per se, and agree with someone who pointed out the insightful discussion that then emerged, all things said and done. One positive take away I had reading the comments, was wondering why some of these members were not moderators, instead of...

The remnants of old Northern Sounds sexism was still lingering here when I joined seven years ago. Shards of it still remain, though so much has changed in the recent years. I’ve stayed because I believe this forum to be capable of being so much better, and still believe this. My point being, diverse gender representation has been thriving and well represented in many places these past few years, with notable features at sites like Ableton, or artists profiled by Native Instruments which immediately come to mind. Incidentally, a Eurorack conference I attended recently online for three days, featured groundbreaking panels and performances by women and non gender-binding persons affecting cultural and social change through electronic music. The event was capped off by Suzanne Ciani as the final keynote. Awesome.

My existential crisis here still stems from the posted forum rule invoking female body slang, where you argue that it is acceptable to use such language so long as it is “contextual.” Then along comes this thread discussing changing the name of another forum, and I find myself unable to reconcile your duality. I feel as passionately about you removing the language of that rule, as I’m sure you do about renaming of Gearslutz. In fact, I see the problematic rationale that justifies both of these things in the first place, as stemming from a similar cultural place, though you may disagree.

These other discussions are a bit of a trigger for me, I confess, with respect to who controls the narrative here, each and every time gender issues are discussed. I personally can’t see some of these things through the lens, or defenses you offer, and hence the crisis of continued participation stems from being told to simply deal with it. I’ve exhausted that exercise of dealing with it, and so it’s time to move on.

It’s a great community, for sure, and one which can be so much better in terms of how diversity is being realized.


----------



## kgdrum

I’m a bit conflicted with all of the members complaining about a request for a thread directed towards women asking for their unfiltered responses.
I also understand Mike wanting to hear directly from women to get their honest perspective and feedback.
Mike made the request for a women only thread and I respected the request & refrained from posting in it. I also found the thread enlightening and have to agree if it had been a free for all it would have been 20 pages long and the women’s feedback would have been buried.
While I personally have no problem with the Gearslutz name or the impending name change,I actually consider myself a SLUT! 
There are thousands of threads here if a special request is made for one thread is it that hard to respect the request and let the thread develop as intended?
Adding insult to injury subsequently male VI-C members are now bent out of shape that vitriolic posts that they posted were deleted in a thread that they were asked not to participate in.


Suppose someone starts a thread about Omnisphere workflow tips and the OP makes a request please only actual Omnisphere users participation welcome.
Than all sorts of people that don’t have or use Omnisphere flood the thread with why they prefer and use Falcon.
If the inappropriate posts are deleted to cleanup the thread and get it back to the OP’s original premise would people be this bent out of shape?

These are forum threads,discussions nothing here is really that important on a life altering scale when we are actually living in a time when misguided decisions can have some very serious consequences.

I like the name Gearslutz and yes I identify as a Slut will I lose sleep because the name is going to be changed? NO!

So the OP who happens to be the Forum owner makes a request to hear directly from the users he’s asking the question to without unnecessary noise in one thread is it that difficult to respect this request?


----------



## chrisr

Mike Greene said:


> I'm walking on fucking eggshells for fear I might offend someone.


Yeah I'm sorry about that, I know it's not a pleasant position to be in. Rest assured that as far as I can tell nobody remotely doubts your integrity or your good intentions. I do seriously doubt your sanity for taking this place on but that's another matter. Hope you can get back to just enjoying being around here yourself - I think we're at 'peak grump' on the planet everywhere globally at the moment. Right-o, with that I'm off to kick the dog and brew a coffee.


----------



## chocobitz825

Whatever happened to the days where when you made a mistake or offended someone, you would just apologize and we’d all move on? How did the prospect of potentially offending someone result in people being afraid to offend, and even more committed to doubling down on the offense when called out? None of this should be such a big deal.

I appreciate the chance for open conversation on this forum, even if the reality was more disappointing than rewarding. Much thanks to the moderators for trying.


----------



## Trash Panda

kgdrum said:


> There are thousands of threads here if a special request is made for one thread is it that hard to respect the request and let the thread develop as intended?
> Adding insult to injury subsequently male VI-C members are now bent out of shape that vitriolic posts that they posted were deleted in a thread that they were asked not to participate in.


Privileged entitlement is a hell of a drug.


----------



## KallumS

An easier solution would have been to change the name to Gear’s Lutz


----------



## Tfis

New name announced


----------



## easyrider

*Someone is not happy









Signez la pétition


Partition to NOT change the name of gearslutz




www.change.org




*


----------



## chocobitz825

easyrider said:


> *Someone is not happy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Signez la pétition
> 
> 
> Partition to NOT change the name of gearslutz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.change.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Pathetic...


----------



## easyrider

chocobitz825 said:


> Pathetic...


Yep


----------



## NYC Composer

Omfg. I skipped to the tenth page of this nonsense.

TEN PAGES?? ??!!! 

WRITE SOME FUCKING MUSIC!!!!


----------



## chocobitz825

NYC Composer said:


> Omfg. I skipped to the tenth page of this nonsense.
> 
> TEN PAGES?? ??!!!
> 
> WRITE SOME FUCKING MUSIC!!!!


what was that? i can't hear you over all this music I'm making


----------



## DoubleTap

I don't get this. Peter Hitchens and other right wing commentators have been going on for years about the debasement of language. Mary Whitehouse is still famous in the UK decades after she died for her campaigns to get sex, violence and bad language off TV. 

And when Janet Jackson flashed a nipple at the Superbowl whenever it was, there was total uproar from the right.

But somehow dropping a word that would get nowhere near Sesame Street is political correctness? 

This is political incorrectness gone mad.


----------



## h.s.j.e

@Mike Greene I appreciate your work to engage thoughtfully and manage conversation as well as possible, while being open to criticism. It's something that we've talked about a lot at my place of employment this past year as we've found ourselves in positions to have to take a position on controversial topics - damned if we do, damned if we don't, angry constituents becomes the cost of doing business. Most of all, I appreciate that you're continuing to work at it, thus far undeterred.

As far as GS: I wouldn't name it that; it strikes me as needlessly alienating. Makes a ton of sense to change it.


----------



## JonS

This kind of political correctness is insincere as are most micro triggers. The problem is there is no substantive or meaningful change in how society operates, it's more like stampede lip service, which has about as much value as junior high school petty gossip. Changing the name will not stop the behavior. There will always be people who either love or are addicted to buying gear, and you can't stop the men and women from behaving like sluts if they want to no matter what you do. I thought the name had comedic value, or is comedy the new evil too now?

People need to do something with their lives as this strikes me as what can someone complain about next when they are bored by their life and have way too much time on their hands or perhaps someone feels a lack of fulfillment or power in their own life and wants to project their anger towards some micro trigger cause, like that will change anything...It won't.

On a similar note, imagine if none of the sports teams ever had Native American Indian names and Native American Indians protested sports teams that they were being ignored, excommunicated, left out and neglected by main stream entertainment and demanded that major sports teams honor Native Americans by recognizing their heritage in the new Native American Indians Lives Matter movement that sweeps the country. The Green Bay Packers becomes the Green Bay Redskins, the Denver Broncos becomes the Denver Braves, the Las Vegas Raiders become the Las Vegas Indians. You can turn these micro triggers upside down and inside out so that whoever wants to be offended can somehow justify their indignation. In the end this is all wordplay. I am not saying words don't matter, but it's not like there is substantive improvement in the lives of Native American Indians if we as a culture remove or add the nicknames of our sports teams to gain the approval of people who are upset in the moment of now. Changing a sports teams moniker does not bring back the 55 million Native American Indians who died from smallpox, measles and the flu when European colonists arrived in America.


----------



## widescreen

JonS said:


> I thought the name had comedic value, or is comedy the new evil too now?


It has to be the "right" comedy. In opposite to the "wrong" comedy. That some Twitter-groups define.

If all comedy that could possibly harm anyone's feelings (or any animal's) would be cancelled, there would not be much left.

Example:
Idiots feel ashamed if a comedian played an idiot. As such a large citizen group (one of the fastest growing right now!) is affected by comedians playing them, idiot jokes are now banned! All books or films containing the word "idiot" or where someone behaves like one must be burned and completely rewritten.
-> Sorry Monthy Python, as you are the root of evil now, you are the first on the stake.

Our world is becoming a place with less humour and more bricks to be dropped than a long time before, maybe ever.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Well, it's official:







www.gearspace.com


----------



## yiph2

ChromeCrescendo said:


> Well, it's official:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.gearsapce.com (www.gearspace.com)


FYI your link is wrong


----------



## MusiquedeReve

yiph2 said:


> FYI your link is wrong


Thanks - fixed it


----------



## heisenberg

I am really glad they decided to stick to the same tried & true design ethos.


----------



## SupremeFist

I like the new name. It's like MySpace for gear!


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

It's a good name, and they kept the logo unmistakenly recognizable. Good move, and now they can finally carry on without that slight aura of idiocy around the former name.


----------



## alexen2916

Very very smart move. Well done you.

(FWIW not in love with the logo, never was, but hey ho).


----------



## el-bo

Gotta have been the smoothest transition they could've gone with


----------



## alexen2916

Linda


el-bo said:


> Gotta have been the smoothest transition they could've gone with


Kinda was thinking the same thing myself.


----------



## R. Soul

I like the fact that you can still abbreviate it as GS.


----------



## jamwerks

Yeah he was probably able to do that renaming all by himself!


----------



## el-bo

R. Soul said:


> I like the fact that you can still abbreviate it as GS.


That's what I meant. Same short-hand, same amount of letters and therefore almost exactly the same logo


----------



## Thundercat

It's amazing there's 11 pages of discussion on the change of the name of a website.

As Jon S stated above, this is almost a farce - people getting worked up over a name. Homelessness. People out of work due to lockdowns. Not getting to hug your gramma...these are worth filling 11 pages with solutions over.

In any case, I'll add my $.02 to this pile of poo of a thread. I like the new name.


----------



## el-bo

Thundercat said:


> It's amazing there's 11 pages of discussion on the change of the name of a website.
> 
> As Jon S stated above, this is almost a farce - people getting worked up over a name. Homelessness. People out of work due to lockdowns. Not getting to hug your gramma...these are worth filling 11 pages with solutions over.
> 
> In any case, I'll add my $.02 to this pile of poo of a thread. I like the new name.


Not sure why it should amaze you that there's so many pages. Even someone such as yourself, who seemingly has the weight of the worlds problems on your shoulders, can make time to comment how pointless commenting is. It's amazing we're not into the hundreds of pages


----------



## Jotto

Can Someone else use the name Gearslutz now?


----------



## Thundercat

el-bo said:


> Not sure why it should amaze you that there's so many pages. Even someone such as yourself, who seemingly has the weight of the worlds problems on your shoulders, can make time to comment how pointless commenting is. It's amazing we're not into the hundreds of pages


Yes, someone above it all such as myself LOL!! Point taken. I should know better...


----------



## el-bo

Thundercat said:


> Yes, someone above it all such as myself LOL!! Point taken. I should know better...


----------



## easyrider

Looks like they have branched out into Cargo Carriers








GearSpace Slideout Cargo Carrier -Light Gray


Our 34 c.f. enclosed hitch cargo carrier meets real life capacity needs from luggage to bikes with convenient slide out rear vehicle access. Ideal for RVs and SUV.




letsgoaero.com


----------



## Stringtree

Wow, looks like a cheerfully innocuous site. Reading a few posts will clear that up right quick! 

Nice clean transition, tho, have to say.


----------



## chocobitz825

ChromeCrescendo said:


> Well, it's official:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gearspace.com


who doesnt want more space for their gear? bravo.


----------



## Polkasound

SupremeFist said:


> I like the new name. It's like MySpace for gear!


Yep! And Gearspace is projected to be the hottest music forum on the planet for the next three years until everyone starts migrating to Spacebook.


----------



## JohnG

Polkasound said:


> Yep! And Gearspace is projected to be the hottest music forum on the planet for the next three years until everyone starts migrating to Spacebook.


Or PolkaBook™


----------



## el-bo

JohnG said:


> Or PolkaBook™


As long as they play this constantly while browsing, I'll be there 





And yes, this is the best thing on the internet


----------



## Trash Panda

Now we just need someone to spin off an OnlyGears website where vendors can show teases of their transistors and algorithms for those willing to pay to see under the hood of their favorites boxes and plugins.


----------



## Stringtree

Trash Panda said:


> Now we just need someone to spin off an OnlyGears website where vendors can show teases of their transistors and algorithms for those willing to pay to see under the hood of their favorites boxes and plugins.


I'd be down for that. A lot of manufacturers cloak their piecesparts. 

The Chandler TG-2 has hefty transistors with their identifying marks ground out. And the Klon Centaur guitar pedal board was encapsulated in black goop. (Not the Gwineth Paltrow type! 🤮 )

Aww, custard. I'm posting too much.


----------



## chocobitz825

Stringtree said:


> I'd be down for that. A lot of manufacturers cloak their piecesparts.
> 
> The Chandler TG-2 has hefty transistors with their identifying marks ground out. And the Klon Centaur guitar pedal board was encapsulated in black goop. (Not the Gwineth Paltrow type! 🤮 )
> 
> Aww, custard. I'm posting too much.


No keep going ☺️


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Trash Panda said:


> Now we just need someone to spin off an OnlyGears website where vendors can show teases of their transistors and algorithms for those willing to pay to see under the hood of their favorites boxes and plugins.


It's getting hot in here


----------



## Stringtree

Heeeheee.. What more to say? It's gonna be better without the 'slutz, people who aren't in a class sensitive to that word have no idea how it hurts, other groups have claimed it and wield it carelessly, the world is a bonfire. The majority have no feckin' clue what all the fuss is about.

The U87 is the best mic. The U87 Ai is trash. 
What kind of acoustic foam should I buy at Guitar Center?
I want to start reading audiobooks. How can I make my closet or bathroom sound better?
Should I buy a Blue Yeti or a Snowball?
I got (N) and it doesn't sound good. What am I doing wrong? I'm not sounding epic.
You need to stop purchasing gear and meditate.
Meditation is stupid; it'll do nothing for your signal chain. 
I don't read music or play any instruments. How do I break into this business?
Free sample libraries will never sound good. You need N.

If I could trade all the "snake oil" for qualified instruction, I wouldn't. Or would I? Not sure. It's about the journey, isn't it? Moooore than a feeeeeelinggggg... Every supermarket and restaurant bathroom.

An electret capacitor mic is flat. Modern integrated circuit preamplifiers are a few dollars, and electronically-balanced inputs are easy to implement. Why the fuss? Flat, like a pancake. Add harmonic distortion in post. It's still a game, and I like to play. 

Gearspace. A nice place to hang out and chew buckets of time.


----------



## Trash Panda

Stringtree said:


> I'd be down for that. A lot of manufacturers cloak their piecesparts.
> 
> The Chandler TG-2 has hefty transistors with their identifying marks ground out. And the Klon Centaur guitar pedal board was encapsulated in black goop. (Not the Gwineth Paltrow type! 🤮 )
> 
> Aww, custard. I'm posting too much.


----------



## Loïc D

Stringtree said:


> I got (N) and it doesn't sound good.


No way. As someone quoted earlier, you don’t choose N, N chooses you. It can’t sound bad.


----------



## Polkasound

el-bo said:


> As long as they play this constantly while browsing, I'll be there


Not to change the subject of the thread, but if you like that kind of thing, I gotta put this music sample up. The Alanis Morissette songs I recorded 25 years ago, and the others 7 years ago. (This music is not licensed for digital distribution, so I'll be yanking the audio clip down shortly.)


----------



## Stringtree

Polkasound said:


> Not to change the subject of the thread, but if you like that kind of thing, I gotta put this music sample up. The Alanis Morissette songs I recorded 25 years ago, and the others 7 years ago. (This music is not licensed for digital distribution, so I'll be yanking the audio clip down shortly.)


Okay, that's freaking awesome.


----------



## Stringtree

For all the fun that's made of accordion, in the 90s, our little acoustic act opened for these guys. We weren't any good, and I broke a string.

Hearing this again has sort of changed the tenor of the evening. I like the accordion.


----------



## el-bo

Polkasound said:


> Not to change the subject of the thread, but if you like that kind of thing, I gotta put this music sample up. The Alanis Morissette songs I recorded 25 years ago, and the others 7 years ago. (This music is not licensed for digital distribution, so I'll be yanking the audio clip down shortly.)



Polka tends to lend itself so well to comedy, which I guess could be unfortunate; that is, unless one embraces it head-on, as in these examples. There were some real LOL moments in this little demo-reel, but also some really inventive ideas. 

What was your involvement in these, if that's ok to ask?


----------



## Polkasound

el-bo said:


> Polka tends to lend itself so well to comedy, which I guess could be unfortunate; that is, unless one embraces it head-on, as in these examples.


You're absolutely right. The biggest problem that has always plagued polka music is that the general public only knows it as hokey (i.e. Schmenge Brothers) because that's the only form in which it is ever presented in mainstream media. One needs to get away from mainstream media and actually dive into the genre to find the other 99% of it.

Because I actually come from the polka music circuit and market my music to polka fans, my humor is harmlessly self-deprecating and satirical. My lyrics don't polka fun at polka music from the perspective of a comedian or outsider musician like Weird Al, but as bona fide polka musician.




el-bo said:


> What was your involvement in these, if that's ok to ask?


Everything you hear except for the vocals (Nichal Kelsch, Matt Newton) and the accordion accompaniment in the second half of the clip (David Austin).


----------



## el-bo

Polkasound said:


> You're absolutely right. The biggest problem that has always plagued polka music is that the general public only knows it as hokey (i.e. Schmenge Brothers) because that's the only form in which it is ever presented in mainstream media. One needs to get away from mainstream media and actually dive into the genre to find the other 99% of it.
> 
> Because I actually come from the polka music circuit and market my music to polka fans, my humor is harmlessly self-deprecating and satirical. _*My lyrics don't polka fun at polka music*_ from the perspective of a comedian or outsider musician like Weird Al, but as bona fide polka musician.




It's not that i can't appreciate it for what it is. Perhaps I've been to too many Bar Mitzvahs (A similar music tradition, no?). It certainlu works well when flinging people around the dance-floor to 'Hava Nagila'. But I still have a little bit of an instinctive recoil from the 'oompah-ness' of it all. No offence intended.

No doubt you could point me to a better curated entry-point, but I reckon i'd still have to proceed with at least a little caution 

*Edited*, to add: I bet it's an absolute riot to play it live.



Polkasound said:


> Everything you hear except for the vocals (Nichal Kelsch, Matt Newton) and the accordion accompaniment in the second half of the clip (David Austin).


Really good, man


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## Polkasound

el-bo said:


> But I still have a little bit of an instinctive recoil from the 'oompah-ness' of it all. No offence intended.


No offence taken. Very few people discover polka music at a later age and begin following it. It just doesn't work that way. You have to be born into the music to have the oompah in your blood.



el-bo said:


> *Edited*, to add: I bet it's an absolute riot to play it live.


It can be. It's a common misconception, though, that polka music prioritizes fun over finesse. That's because of the schtick stigma attached to it. There are some polka bands out there that push the schtick, because the schtick is what sells to the general public. But when catering to true polka aficionados like those you'd find attending a polka fest, schtick doesn't get a lot of love. Finesse does. So in that respect, playing polka music live is very enjoyable, but no more or less enjoyable than when blues, rock, or country musicians get together to play.



el-bo said:


> Really good, man


Thank you! 


I feel bad that this thread got hi-jacked (my fault) so if anyone wants a little more polka music insight, feel free to PM me.

Congratulations to GearSpace for coming up with an innocuous yet perfectly appropriate new name.


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## ism

The sudden and unexpected shift towards polka has much improved this thread.


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## dzilizzi

Polkasound said:


> No offence taken. Very few people discover polka music at a later age and begin following it. It just doesn't work that way. You have to be born into the music to have the oompah in your blood.
> 
> 
> It can be. It's a common misconception, though, that polka music prioritizes fun over finesse. That's because of the schtick stigma attached to it. There are some polka bands out there that push the schtick, because the schtick is what sells to the general public. But when catering to true polka aficionados like those you'd find attending a polka fest, schtick doesn't get a lot of love. Finesse does. So in that respect, playing polka music live is very enjoyable, but no more or less enjoyable than when blues, rock, or country musicians get together to play.
> 
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> 
> I feel bad that this thread got hi-jacked (my fault) so if anyone wants a little more polka music insight, feel free to PM me.
> 
> Congratulations to GearSpace for coming up with an innocuous yet perfectly appropriate new name.


It's okay with me. I was kind of over the whole Gearslutz/space discussion a long time ago.


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## NYC Composer

Weird Al is an accordion rock star.

Stay weird, my friends.


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## Mark Evans

Since my posting this update on Meg Lee Chin's story got taken down from the other thread here and I have also been "removed" from all discussions over at Gearslutz for merely quoting a poster querying why all mentions of her story had been disappeared - even though it is on Wikipedia and is a matter of court record, I'm just posting this here to see how long it lasts.





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Update: Recent Silencing. | Gear Warz






gearwarz.megleechin.com


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## chocobitz825

Mark Evans said:


> Since my posting this update on Meg Lee Chin's story got taken down from the other thread here and I have also been "removed" from all discussions over at Gearslutz for merely quoting a poster querying why all mentions of her story had been disappeared - even though it is on Wikipedia and is a matter of court record, I'm just posting this here to see how long it lasts.
> 
> 
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> 
> __
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> Update: Recent Silencing. | Gear Warz
> 
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> gearwarz.megleechin.com


I'm kind of confused over the whole thing. What is the point of bringing up this case? I mean, shitty business practices are valid, and maybe they were motivated by a lack of respect for women at the time...and she seems to imply she thought the name was shitty then...but their lawsuit is 10 years old(?) what are we supposed to gather from this? Is it meant to imply that the current change of name is lacking in sincerity? meant to tarnish the name of the current owner? I mean...I don't care if that is the case, but it'd be nice to have a clearer idea of what we're supposed to do with this information.


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## Mark Evans

chocobitz825 said:


> I'm kind of confused over the whole thing. What is the point of bringing up this case? I mean, shitty business practices are valid, and maybe they were motivated by a lack of respect for women at the time...and she seems to imply she thought the name was shitty then...but their lawsuit is 10 years old(?) what are we supposed to gather from this? Is it meant to imply that the current change of name is lacking in sincerity? meant to tarnish the name of the current owner? I mean...I don't care if that is the case, but it'd be nice to have a clearer idea of what we're supposed to do with this information.


It's not that I disagree with you. But given that her information is a matter of public record and given that Gearslutz is happy to host 3 very long threads of people chuntering over the name change, I am truly puzzled at the way in which merely referring to the case leads, in her case on Muffwiggler, in my case (and my single post on GS didn't directly refer to it) there and here to get 'disappeared' .
I do find the systematic silencing odd and I don't feel it reflects well on the transparency of the British music industry and the inclusivity that the name change is supposed to give.


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## chocobitz825

Mark Evans said:


> It's not that I disagree with you. But given that her information is a matter of public record and given that Gearslutz is happy to host 3 very long threads of people chuntering over the name change, I am truly puzzled at the way in which merely referring to the case leads, in her case on Muffwiggler, in my case (and my single post on GS didn't directly refer to it) there and here do get 'disappeared'.
> I have no vested interests but I do find the systematic silencing odd and it does not reflect well on the transparency of the British music industry and the inclusivity that the name change is supposed to give.


ah ok, so this is more about the business on the whole? I honestly don't know. Her posts seems to imply that there are factors that cant be discussed openly. It's a very common and shitty part of the music business. I can only imagine that if there are matters that cant be talked about openly by both parties, it would be not in the interest of gearspace to encourage discussion of that matter on their forum. I'm not sure why it would be removed from VI-control thought


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## timprebble

Similarly great to see Muffwiggler modular synth forum has changed its name to Modwiggler





__





MOD WIGGLER - Index page






www.modwiggler.com







How Muffwiggler got its tone deaf name:
https://bluestockingsmag.com/2014/04/17/muff-wiggler-sexism-in-audio-cultures/


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## Mike Greene

Mark Evans said:


> Since my posting this update on Meg Lee Chin's story got taken down from the other thread here ...





Mark Evans said:


> I am truly puzzled at the way in which merely referring to the case leads, in her case on Muffwiggler, in my case (and my single post on GS didn't directly refer to it) there and here to get 'disappeared' .


It shouldn't be that much of a mystery why your post got "disappeared" here. You posted it in a thread where I clearly prefaced the title with: "Women Only."


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## CT

Missed opportunity to change to GearShitz.


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## Mark Evans

Mike Greene said:


> It shouldn't be that much of a mystery why your post got "disappeared" here. You posted it in a thread where I clearly prefaced the title with: "Women Only."


Other male posts not deleted; I added no editorial, linked to follow up post by woman already cited.


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## el-bo

Mark Evans said:


> Other male posts not deleted; I added no editorial, linked to follow up post by woman already cited.


I'm a male and I got deleted from that thread, so there's that


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## el-bo

timprebble said:


> Similarly great to see Muffwiggler modular synth forum has changed its name to Modwiggler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> MOD WIGGLER - Index page
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.modwiggler.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Muffwiggler got its tone deaf name:
> https://bluestockingsmag.com/2014/04/17/muff-wiggler-sexism-in-audio-cultures/


May I be the first to exclaim, "ZOMG!!! ITZ POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GAWN MAAAAD!!!".


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## Mike Greene

Mark Evans said:


> Other male posts not deleted; I added no editorial, linked to follow up post by woman already cited.


And you'll see several posts from me in that same thread explaining the situation, including why I deleted over a hundred other men's posts, not just yours.

This post is simply too whiny to tolerate, so I'm giving Mark a timeout for a few days.


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## chocobitz825

so i we’re post name change...and the world hasn’t burned to the ground....at least no more than usual....can we agree that ultimately this was not a big deal for us?


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## fakemaxwell

Mike Greene said:


> And you'll see several posts from me in that same thread explaining the situation, including why I deleted over a hundred other men's posts, not just yours.


But Mike, I'm a man on the internet. Where are all the spaces for me to yell my opinions???


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## Trash Panda

Look at that! A big red button that says “DO NOT PUSH!” I wonder what happens if I just give it a little-...


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