# Herrmann - The City - Cinematic Strings +



## Rob (Jun 21, 2010)

The well known piece from the Psycho score by Herrmann. Mostly Cinematic Strings Stage mics plus some custom solo patches... reverb is Toraverb, very suitable in my opinion for this 60s kind of sound

www.robertosoggetti.com/Herrmann_The_City.mp3

update: different Cinematic Strings mics positions


All mics: www.robertosoggetti.com/Herrmann_CS_all_micsEQ.mp3

Room mics: www.robertosoggetti.com/Herrmann_CS_room_micsEQ.mp3

Stage mics: www.robertosoggetti.com/Herrmann_CS_stage_micsEQ.mp3

Spot mics: www.robertosoggetti.com/Herrmann_CS_spot_micsEQ.mp3

midifile:

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/Herrmann_The_City.mid


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 21, 2010)

Rob, 

That sounds really good and quite realistic! And Cinematic Strings dont sound bad at all - definitely worth a look.


Good programming and great sound!



Tanuj.


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## hbuus (Jun 21, 2010)

Hey Rob,

This sounds nice!
There seems to be some background noise in the piece from time to time, though.

Best,
Henrik


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## Rob (Jun 21, 2010)

thank you, Tanuj! 



hbuus @ 21st June 2010 said:


> Hey Rob,
> 
> This sounds nice!
> There seems to be some background noise in the piece from time to time, though.
> ...



thanks Henrik, I think the noise you're referring to is the low rumble I always forget to cut in the pianissimo CS violin samples. If not, I must have done something wrong in the mix...  Sometimes my spdif input is sending noise, don't know why...


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## mixolydian (Jun 21, 2010)

Sounds good to my ears even with those rumblings. I wished Alex had a lite version in the pipeline.


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## SvK (Jun 21, 2010)

Awesome!!!

sound great!

Could you talk about EQ if any and please post post some pics of your fade curves please...

just great!!

Are you using the pitch slurring?
Also ...which mic positions? Just the stage ones?

love it...


PS: The stage noiz makes it better 
You just need to run a hint of steady stage noiz in addition so it doesn't come in and out due to string fades.....

PS: Cinematic sounds great!!

SvK


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## Rob (Jun 22, 2010)

thank you guys!



SvK @ 21st June 2010 said:


> Awesome!!!
> 
> sound great!
> 
> Could you talk about EQ if any and please post post some pics of your fade curves please...



thank you SvK! I don't know how to take a picture of Logic's fades, as my Mac doesn't have an internet connection... an actual picture of the screen maybe?





> Are you using the pitch slurring?
> Also ...which mic positions? Just the stage ones?
> 
> love it...



just the stage mics, and the slurring you hear comes from the solo patches I have edited to have a pitched release to mimic legato/portamento...




> PS: The stage noiz makes it better
> You just need to run a hint of steady stage noiz in addition so it doesn't come in and out due to string fades.....
> 
> PS: Cinematic sounds great!!
> ...



hey that's a cool idea! 8) I want to try that! Agreed on Cinematic strings sound quality...


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## Rob (Jun 22, 2010)

dexterflex @ 22nd June 2010 said:


> Sounds great. Would you be willing to post a midi file of this? Also did you use Toraverb with tail and ER?




thanks Dexter... here's the midi...

www.robertosoggetti.com/Herrmann_The_City.mid

as for Toraverb, yes, both er and tail


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## SvK (Jun 22, 2010)

Rob,

what is pleasantly suprising is that despite Cinematic's lack of divisi, the mockup still gets away very well with this cue.....

One last request, could you post a version with the solo stuff turned off?

Best,

SvK


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## Ashermusic (Jun 22, 2010)

As great as this sounds, and it does, I just did the following:

1. Assigned the parts to Kirk Hunter's Concert Strings II.

2. Doubled the parts with LASS while using Logic's Transform Humanize setting on all of them so that they would not be identical.

3. Sent them all to a Bus with Altiverb using Todd AO early reflections, a UAD EMT 250, and a UAD El Fatso, Jr.

The sound is amazing! KH CSII and LASS really blend together well. Next week I am getting Hollywood Strings and I will see how that mixes in.


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## midphase (Jun 22, 2010)

Jay, could you post the mp3 of it? I'd love to hear it.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 22, 2010)

midphase @ Tue Jun 22 said:


> Jay, could you post the mp3 of it? I'd love to hear it.



I don't do that but I will gladly email it to you and to most people here who email me requesting it.

Oh, and of course if Roberto were playing these specific samples instead of me just assigning them, the MIDI performance probably would be a little different.


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## SvK (Jun 23, 2010)

Rob,

I must say I am very impressed with the Cinematic only version......
To take screen shots of your mod-wheel curves etc in Logic:

shift+apple+4

this gives you a crosshair which you drag over any area on screen; when you let go that crosshair square will be a pic on your desktop which you can post here.....

some questions:

Obviously in Bernie's score he only enter the pp and p's...as you are riding the modwheel in Cinematic are you only staying in the firsat 2 vel layers or occasionally going up into the 3d layer? which is now MF?

Also are you faking Sordino tone in Cinematic with EQ or is it cinematic as shipped?



thanx,

SvK


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## hbuus (Jun 24, 2010)

Here is what Rob's piece sounds like when using SISS:

http://www.box.net/shared/f4a29qxgu0

Rob, I hope you don't mind me uploading this.

Best,
Henrik


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## Rob (Jun 24, 2010)

hbuus @ 24th June 2010 said:


> Here is what Rob's piece sounds like when using SISS:
> 
> http://www.box.net/shared/f4a29qxgu0
> 
> ...



no problem Henrik, in fact I thank you for doing this... I have three observations

1) I love the sound of these strings
2) Tempo is too fast, it should be around 69 per quarter note, sounds much faster in your example
3) I hear no dynamic swells... do you have a way of assigning dynamics to cc1? In the midi that I posted that was the cc controlling the dynamics

I'd love if you find the time to redo the SISS version with the right tempo and some expression, thank you!


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## hbuus (Jun 24, 2010)

Here's SISS again with fix for tempo, but still without dynamics (sorry!):
http://www.box.net/shared/eenyqp7p9h


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## hbuus (Jun 24, 2010)

Here's a version with some quick CC edits done:
http://www.box.net/shared/4um0d3q3gj

There were some spikes that I've taken down a bit.
It's not perfect but I have no more time for this today.
Hope it will be somewhat useful anyway.


EDIT:
Had the wrong tempo dialled in at first, so I have had to replaced the link I first published above.


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## SvK (Jun 25, 2010)

Robert...

I never thanked you for putting all this stuff up here...THANX 
I will check out your curves  in the midi-file, and I just read on your post that there is no EQing

so thanx again!

SvK


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## SvK (Jun 25, 2010)

Robert...you didn't use the true legato patches huh? You used the polyphonic keywswitch.

ha...still sounds great.

QUESTION:
what is "control 3" assigned to?

SvK


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## Rob (Jun 26, 2010)

SvK @ 25th June 2010 said:


> Robert...you didn't use the true legato patches huh? You used the polyphonic keywswitch.
> 
> ha...still sounds great.
> 
> ...



you're absolutely welcome, SvK... 
as for the patches used, what I've done is create simplified single patches in Kontakt, erasing every group other than the ones I wanted to keep, so that I have a "hi position 1st violins-Stage", "low pos 1st violins-close" or "non vib violas-room"... much easier for my weak system. Unfortunately I had to do without legato transitions...
cc3 controls the bending of attacks or releases in my patches so to compensate for the lack of transitions. Hope I was clear enough


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## SvK (Jun 26, 2010)

Rob 

Thanx got it!

SvK


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## Bernard Asselin (Jun 26, 2010)

Rob @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> hbuus @ 24th June 2010 said:
> 
> 
> > Here is what Rob's piece sounds like when using SISS:
> ...



Hi Rob! 

If you're agree, I could post HS version. Cinematic Strings has a very good sound. The comparison with HS should be mainly about expression.


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## Rob (Jun 27, 2010)

Bernard Asselin @ 27th June 2010 said:


> Hi Rob!
> 
> If you're agree, I could post HS version. Cinematic Strings has a very good sound. The comparison with HS should be mainly about expression.



Bernard, please do it, it an interesting comparison...
thanks


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## wst3 (Jun 27, 2010)

Kudos on a couple of levels...

To Rob, for a lovely recording, and everyone for sharing their talent and libraries.

For some of us (pretty sure I am not alone) choosing a string library from the current crop is overwhelming. Gone are the days when one could visit the local music store and spend a few hours with contenders, so it comes down to demos.

Vendor demos are great, they show you what the library can do in the hands of the folks that created it. That is usually about as good as it will get.

User demos can be a mixed bag. A talented artist can showcase a library nicely, and it provides alternate views of the capabilities. The opposite is also true<G>!

But an apples to apples comparison, using a single MIDI file to showcase different libraries, well, that's just a gift!

It'll still be a while before I invest in a new string library, but I am learning so much from this thread.

I may even try rendering the piece with the libraries I already own<G>!


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## Bernard Asselin (Jun 27, 2010)

I've used divisi but they have close microphones only. HS has lot of dynamic layers, so I had to redraw dynamic curves. I don't have the score and I didn't heard this music before, so my apologies if it's not like it should be. Anyway, that give us a good idea of what HS divis can do on this.

http://www.horizonsymphonique.com/mp3/Herrmann_The_City.mp3 (http://www.horizonsymphonique.com/mp3/H ... e_City.mp3)
http://www.horizonsymphonique.com/mp3/Herrmann_The_City_EQ.mp3 (http://www.horizonsymphonique.com/mp3/H ... ity_EQ.mp3) (custom EQ here)

-Ben


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## SvK (Jun 28, 2010)

Bernard the HS sounds great....

POst another with the sordino switch on 


impressive!


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## Narval (Jun 28, 2010)

I don't have a printed score, only the tracks. When listening to your track, that dominant 7th makes no sense there, also the chord in the second situation sounds out of place too, so I had to check. I think, out of respect for the music and for the composer, you may want to make sure that you play the notes and the chords he wanted there. But if you think that's not so important, then never mind.


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## Rob (Jun 28, 2010)

Narval @ 28th June 2010 said:


> I don't have a printed score, only the tracks. When listening to your track, that dominant 7th makes no sense there, also the chord in the second situation sounds out of place too, so I had to check. I think, out of respect for the music and for the composer, you may want to make sure that you play the notes and the chords he wanted there. But if you
> think that's not so important, then never mind.



It was already difficult to find this score, how can I find one that I'm sure has all the correct notes? In this context anyway still I don't think it's so important


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## SvK (Jun 28, 2010)

Roberto...I sent you a Private Message.

SvK


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## SvK (Jun 28, 2010)

The City" conducted by Salonen in 1996, Disney Hall, LA Philharmonic. 

http://public.me.com/svonkampen/03_The_City.mp3 

for reference... 

PS: I also own two other versions, The McNeely is way to fast and to little expression. This is my favorite version of this cue. 

SvK


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## OB.one (Jun 28, 2010)

Bonjour Rob and Bernard and Congratulations for both of your renderings, really nice tones !

As i own HS my question is for Bernard :

Bernard could you tell us what patches from HS you've been using to make your rendering ?

Thanx a lot for the info.

Best Regards.

Olivier


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## Rob (Jun 29, 2010)

Since it has been requested, here are the separate mics from Cinematic Strings, this time with some EQ to simulate sordinos:

All mics: www.robertosoggetti.com/Herrmann_CS_all_micsEQ.mp3

Room mics: www.robertosoggetti.com/Herrmann_CS_room_micsEQ.mp3

Stage mics: www.robertosoggetti.com/Herrmann_CS_stage_micsEQ.mp3

Spot mics: www.robertosoggetti.com/Herrmann_CS_spot_micsEQ.mp3


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## JohnG (Jun 29, 2010)

these are amazingly realistic-sounding


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## Ashermusic (Jun 29, 2010)

JohnG @ Tue Jun 29 said:


> these are amazingly realistic-sounding



Not that that matters :twisted: 

But they do sound good, warm and appealing, and that matters very much.


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## JohnG (Jun 29, 2010)

I like your way of putting it, Jay. And I agree with you.


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## Bernard Asselin (Jun 29, 2010)

OB.one @ Tue Jun 29 said:


> Bonjour Rob and Bernard and Congratulations for both of your renderings, really nice tones !
> 
> As i own HS my question is for Bernard :
> 
> ...



Bonjour Olivier!

Well, the patches are "Leg slur LT 6 DIV A" and B for all sections. Then I just found they were already CON SORDINO on. They were part of a template made for an other purpose. 

-Ben


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## midphase (Jun 29, 2010)

Narval @ Mon Jun 28 said:


> I don't have a printed score, only the tracks. When listening to your track, that dominant 7th makes no sense there, also the chord in the second situation sounds out of place too, so I had to check. I think, out of respect for the music and for the composer, you may want to make sure that you play the notes and the chords he wanted there. But if you think that's not so important, then never mind.



I'm pretty sure Herrmann would have thought they all sound like shit anyway...correct score or not.

Just to add my $.02, I think HS takes the cake on this one.


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## OB.one (Jun 29, 2010)

Bonjour Bernard ! (and Rob and John )

Merci for your reply.

Now who's doing the LASS version ? o/~ 

Take Care

Olivier


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## Hannes_F (Jun 30, 2010)

OB.one @ Wed Jun 30 said:


> Now who's doing the LASS version ? o/~



I am having a deja vue in this thread:

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14749

I feel some of my comments on page 2 are still in order. Cheers o-[][]-o


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## Rob (Jun 30, 2010)

George Caplan @ 30th June 2010 said:


> the cinematic strings are the best sounding to me. i think you did a great job there rob and it sounds fantastic.



thank you George!


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## SvK (Jun 30, 2010)

For slow moving "noir" material you just can't beat Cinematic Strings. 

The only drawback of Cinematic is the absence of effective, legato slurs which I hope they will address in future library.

SvK


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## Rob (Jun 30, 2010)

SvK @ 30th June 2010 said:


> For slow moving "noir" material you just can't beat Cinematic Strings.
> 
> The only drawback of Cinematic is the absence of effective, legato slurs which I hope they will address in future library.
> 
> SvK



yes, and some different kinds of attacks, like detaches, spiccato, balzato etc


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## SvK (Jun 30, 2010)

Rob

especially Detache...

Should be 3 lengths shrt, med, long
4 vel layers 
at least 3 RRs

Also

SFZ 
SFFZ


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## rayinstirling (Jul 1, 2010)

Rob,

Your CS versions sound very musical indeed but, having listened to a recording of the great man conducting the BBC Concert Orchestra, I find little similarity.

ok I know we should never compare vsti to real.


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## Rob (Jul 1, 2010)

rayinstirling @ 1st July 2010 said:


> Rob,
> 
> Your CS versions sound very musical indeed but, having listened to a recording of the great man conducting the BBC Concert Orchestra, I find little similarity.
> 
> ok I know we should never compare vsti to real.



Ray, every recording has its own sound... I have the original directed by Hermann himself in the 60s, and it sounds very harsh and fast, and almost no stereo image at all. I'm for comparing vsti to real btw...


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## Ashermusic (Jul 1, 2010)

Rob @ Thu Jul 01 said:


> rayinstirling @ 1st July 2010 said:
> 
> 
> > Rob,
> ...



There is no comparison, even in your skilled hands Roberto.


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## rayinstirling (Jul 1, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Thu Jul 01 said:


> Rob @ Thu Jul 01 said:
> 
> 
> > rayinstirling @ 1st July 2010 said:
> ...



Strange ???

I'm being misquoted why?


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## Rob (Jul 1, 2010)

Ashermusic @ 1st July 2010 said:


> There is no comparison, even in your skilled hands Roberto.



One thing is saying there's no comparison, another is saying we should not compare... I believe the real thing still is our reference point, the beauty we aim at.


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## Rob (Jul 1, 2010)

It seems there's a problem with quotes...


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## rayinstirling (Jul 1, 2010)

I hear what you're saying Rob,

When he conducted the one reference recording I refered to, the direction he gave the orchestra was unlikely to be exactly as that given when recording for the film.
We all as musicians do this. We often change our minds on the exact sound, tempo, etc. from one day to the next never mind months and years.

Anyway the main thing is, I like CS and I especially like your use of them.


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## SvK (Jul 9, 2010)

http://public.me.com/svonkampen/03_The_City.mp3 

This is "The City" LA Phil conducted by Salonen in 1996.

It is a beautiful recording and not unlike the CS mockups...

SvK


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## RiffWraith (Jul 10, 2010)

Very nice, all! Thanks for doing this.

Personally, the CS version sounds MUCH better than the HS version - at least for this piece. It has a more haunting, darker sound, which again, is fitting. The HS vers sounds good - actually, the "custom eq" version sounds a bit better than the stock vers - but if I had to pick one over the other for this particulat cue, CS definitely gets the vote.

That said, I would still like to hear the full ensemble HS version.

Cheers.


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## RiffWraith (Jul 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Tue Jun 22 said:


> midphase @ Tue Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay, could you post the mp3 of it? I'd love to hear it.
> ...



Why not?


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## Gary Eskow (Aug 28, 2010)

Fabulous! Where did you get the score?


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