# The King's Feast BBO



## Dear Villain (Sep 27, 2019)

Imagining a Baroque composer with access to VSL's new BBO 



Cheers,
Dave


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## mediumaevum (Sep 27, 2019)

EDIT: This comment may sound like very harsh criticism and I later figured it may sound inappropriate.
This is by no means my intention, I'm only trying to help the composer by offering my perspective. 

I hope this clarify my comment.

--
Original comment:
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I miss some melody. All I hear are broken chord progressions using lots of spicc, staccatos and I'm getting bored listening to it.

Also judging from your video, it appears as if all these orchestral effects are really just pre-recorded samples?

If that's the case, that you can get all sorts of orchestral effects "for free", so to speak with little to no effort of compositional skill, I'm not impressed at all. If you did indeed compose all these string runs yourself, writing all of them yourself, I'm sorry, but I still miss melodic ideas and it seems like the entire piece is one gigantic "Orchestral Effects Piece", nothing original here in any case.


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## Dear Villain (Sep 27, 2019)

Thanks, mediumaevum. You're right. It's garbage. Should I remove the track, because I don't want to offend anyone else with this crap. Let me know.

Cheers!
Dave


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## mediumaevum (Sep 27, 2019)

Dear Villain said:


> Thanks, mediumaevum. You're right. It's garbage. Should I remove the track, because I don't want to offend anyone else with this crap. Let me know.
> 
> Cheers!
> Dave



I'm not offended, I'm simply expressing my honest opinion. I may be alone on this opinion though, and others may like your piece. 

But try and make some melodic ideas THEN combine with orchestral effects like string runs and the like.


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## Dear Villain (Sep 27, 2019)

I'm glad you're not offended. And I'll try to "make some melodic ideas" in the future. I don't know how, yet, but I'll do my best to learn. 

Thanks again, mediumaevum. You've inspired me today.


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## Thomas Kallweit (Sep 27, 2019)

Just a short feedback.
mediumaevum can be brutally honest *- *I also made this experience awhile ago, too 

Though in parts I can understand his critique.

This piece sounds very pro - no doubt. And seems to be a showcase. I never could do something like this probably. And it could be a movie score for some huge commercial hollywood movie.
But despite of that.. probably I'm not experienced enough with baroque music (which I like) and I know that you are specialised to that:

It's very fast and seems to be trying to get away - for me it is too fast. Steadily.
In other words: Everything's changing so wild and every time, so that I'm also missing some slowing down sometimes and maybe a theme, which breathes. So again, no expert at all, just the impression.
Just my humble unimportant opinion. Still having problems with lots of scores which can fit well to the pics, but are too busy for my taste, so that I wouldn't listen to them without the movie. My problem.
I know for sure that you are a very skillful composer.


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## paularthur (Sep 27, 2019)

Dear Villain said:


> Imagining a Baroque composer with access to VSL's new BBO
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I'd love to see someone create an animation to this!


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## ism (Sep 27, 2019)

Given that the BBO is a free orchestra (which I think maybe be the point that certain people are missing) this is entirely amazing. 

Very nice!


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## Zx81 (Sep 27, 2019)

Dear Villain said:


> Imagining a Baroque composer with access to VSL's new BBO
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nice piece Dave. I’m enjoying the pieces you are posting over on your YouTube channel. Very inspiring .

D


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## mediumaevum (Sep 28, 2019)

Thomas Kallweit said:


> Just a short feedback.
> mediumaevum can be brutally honest *- *I also made this experience awhile ago, too
> 
> Though in parts I can understand his critique.
> ...



I'm honest, because people expect honesty. I know, because I like honesty as well.
I'm not saying the piece is "garbage" as the OP himself suggested, by no means am I saying that.

But I still miss some melodic form or structure.

I wish I could make all such wild changes in my own pieces. I'm used to listening to "slow music" and that's probably also something worth considering when reading my critique.


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## Dear Villain (Sep 28, 2019)

Thanks to all of you that have chimed in with your comments. I appreciate the positivity, but should say, that I have no problem with some people, like mediumaevum, expressing themselves in the manner which they feel is appropriate, even if it's not how I would talk to people on the net or in person. We're all raised with certain values that in conjunction with our natural personalities, forms our standard of communication.

Here's where a slippery slope begins: as a professional composer, with (fill in the blanks on education, experience, etc.) I'm in a no-win situation if I try to "defend my work." As soon as I try to demonstrate how the piece has "X" motives which are developed here, here, and here...or if I talk about how the pizzicato section offers a longer, breathing theme, etc. etc. people will either get defensive because they don't want to feel like their opinion is "wrong", or they'll start the name calling with stuff like, "here's another classical composer that's arrogant or thinks he's better than us." And so, what can one do?

I choose to post music on this forum that is understood to be stylistically different than what most prefer. What I guess always surprises me, is I'm frequently criticized by those with very little formal musical training, and while everyone, with or without a formal background is entitled to their opinion (and their opinion is just as valid as someone who can dissect theme groups, tell the difference between French and Italian augmented sixth chords, and recognize when the recapitulation in to the coda is occurring) I can't imagine myself dismissing someone's "EDM" music, because I'm not familiar with its stylistic idiosyncrasies. I wouldn't have the confidence to critique it the way mediumaevum did with my piece.

So, while I don't want to turn my thread in to a justification for why I wrote what I wrote, I will offer a few bullet points of explanation: (for those still reading!)

-I wrote it on request of VSL to demo the new Big Bang Orchestra. I don't believe there's any logic in suggesting I could have found other orchestral effects libraries for free.
-There is lots of motivic development (the opening melody at 11 secs. is developed throughout, modulated to different keys, truncated, quoted, and reiterated ad nauseum)
-That melody along with a secondary theme (with the pizz low string section that starts at 35 secs.) form the basis for the piece, wrapped around virtuosic runs and swells, to showcase the BBO. So, again, mediumaevum suggests I come up with melody before using the runs...I felt both melody and BBO effects were well-integrated.
-The BBO is a free (and very nice!) effects-based library...purposely choosing to showcase it in a piece that's more "formal/classical" in nature was my desire, as I knew other composers would showcase it in a more conventional/expected way.
-The rapid shifting of ideas is for impact: it's the scurrying of the castle servants scrambling to prepare a feast for the king. It's also because in a short demo piece, I can't needlessly draw things out with expanded slow/lyrical sections. The chord changes/melodic continuity is there, but this kind of music does bear listening to multiple times to connect the dots. It's not as straightforward as a pop tune.
-Overall, I'll say this to mediumaevum's criticism: the piece is as formal/structured as a wedding cake. The fact that you don't hear that is your deal, not mine. I'm not trying to dismiss your musical ability, because I'm sure you're awesome at the style of music you enjoy, but it's pretty hard for me to converse about this, when I feel like we're in two alternate realities. To use an analogy: if a chef walked up to the McDonald's chef that invented the Big Mac and said, "I'm not impressed...you used a third bun piece and all that sauce but I don't see a burger patty." What is the Big Mac chef to say? "Um, there are two burger patties there...you don't see them?" 

Damn, I'm wordy! Apologies to those I've bored 

Cheers!
Dave


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## mediumaevum (Sep 28, 2019)

Well said, @Dear Villain. I would also add to that I'm sorry if any of my criticism was taken as an offence. That's by no means my intention as I'm actually trying to be polite and appropriate, but I do have some communication difficulties, so please bear with me.

I wish you all the good with further compositing, and also to listen to any future compositions from you. I hope you could use my critique anyway.

My comment was only meant to help, not hurt anyone.


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## Dear Villain (Sep 28, 2019)

mediumaevum said:


> Well said, @Dear Villain. I would also add to that I'm sorry if any of my criticism was taken as an offence. That's by no means my intention as I'm actually trying to be polite and appropriate, but I do have some communication difficulties, so please bear with me.
> 
> I wish you all the good with further compositing, and also to listen to any future compositions from you. I hope you could use my critique anyway.
> 
> My comment was only meant to help, not hurt anyone.



Thank you, mediumaevum. No need to apologize, but I appreciate you doing so. From my perspective, criticism is perfectly acceptable, but I always try to think how my words will sound to someone reading them for the first time, especially when artists share their work, which one would assume they are proud of (and they're making themselves vulnerable by sharing it). I think on the internet, behind a computer, we're all comfortable expressing ideas that we'd try to be a little more tactful with in real life (one would hope, anyway!) It's the nature of the beast. In any case, I appreciate your comments, and thank you for giving my piece your attention and sharing your thoughts.

Cheers!
Dave


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## Reid Rosefelt (Sep 28, 2019)

I love this. Bravo!

For me, it sounded like some of the overtures they used to play before some Broadway shows. Quickly shifting back and forth from one tonal mood or melody to another. Bernstein's "Candide" overture has super-hummable melodies (and I'm not comparing this quick demo of a tutti library to one of my favorite Bernsteins), but it does work in a similar way--radical musical shifts. Both are great fun.

I like the description of the movie we'd be seeing while listening to this: "the scurrying of the castle servants scrambling to prepare a feast for the king." 

Thanks for posting this.


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## mediumaevum (Sep 28, 2019)

One more advice:

Can you make a slow section as well? Some chord progressions, developed with a simple melodic idea, ie. a flute or violins?

Are you familiar with AABB-form? You have a melodic theme repeated, then a B-section (this could be all your string runs and orchestral effects). Or perhaps even this:

ABAA-form? Eventually combined with a third theme ending soft/quiet with a flute with only soft legato violins creating the simple harmony/drone?

This would make your entire piece really interesting, because you get to tell a story then.


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## Dear Villain (Sep 28, 2019)

mediumaevum said:


> One more advice:
> 
> Can you make a slow section as well? Some chord progressions, developed with a simple melodic idea, ie. a flute or violins?
> 
> ...



Mediumaevum, I do appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to share your knowledge with me. I think your expectations for this demo, and the expanded form you seek are not congruent with my intention, and as such, the piece in its current form will not satisfy you. I do understand form...I learned about it while completing my Royal Conservatory of Music theory, my Honours Bachelor of Music, and Master of Music degrees from the University of Toronto, as well as from 20 years of experience composing and performing internationally as part of a duo. I'm not going to recite my bio/cv here, but it's on both of my websites, and at the very least shows that I should have an understanding of basic music theory.

What you're suggesting COULD be where the piece goes, but again to use an analogy: if I present you with a pizza that has pepperoni and cheese, and you suggest I add green peppers and mushrooms to suit your taste, that's a perfectly acceptable request...only, in this case, the pizza is done, served, and I've long moved on to my next "pizza." In other words, let's just say that the piece I presented did not meet with your desires/expectations. Please don't feel you have to show off your knowledge to me. I'm quite an experienced professional, which of course doesn't automatically mean I know more than you, but it does mean that I have had some success with my music to feel confident that what I presented here is at least a viable piece of music for those that might enjoy it. I'm going to bow out now. Thanks again for your suggestions 

Cheers,
Dave


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## Zero&One (Sep 28, 2019)

Nice work! Listened to it a few times as there’s a lot to digest. 
How long did that take roughly? I only ask as I’ve been on hours with something, only to complete a 1/10th of this beast
BBO sounds fantastic.

If I got even 5 negative replies I think I’d hit the big time. Call Top of the Pops I would!


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## Dear Villain (Sep 28, 2019)

Hi James,

Thanks for checking it out. The piece took about half a day to write, and another half a day to do the midi, learning as I went because the BBO and Synchron player were new to me. 

As for your work, we all do things in our own time and at our experience/skill level. Just keep plugging away and I'm sure you'll have something to be proud of! I don't know if I share your philosophy on negative replies though  lol

Cheers!
Dave


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## Reid Rosefelt (Sep 28, 2019)

@Dear Villain I am in awe of your talent and the speed with which you created this piece. You also did your job well in making me excited to download and take this library for a spin. 

Still, I must admit that your metaphors have made me very hungry.


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## Dear Villain (Sep 28, 2019)

TigerTheFrog said:


> @Dear Villain I am in awe of your talent and the speed with which you created this piece. You also did your job well in making me excited to download and take this library for a spin.
> 
> Still, I must admit that your metaphors have made me very hungry.



I appreciate your kind words, TigerTheFrog (and love your tag line!) What can I say, music and food are my two passions  Now, don't go telling me that you're hungry for...bugs?!

Dave


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