# Is The EastWest Symphonic Orchestra a good first Orchestral Library?



## PolarSounds82 (Oct 20, 2019)

Hello! I have been composing for a few years in Finale, but upgraded to Logic Pro X, when I switched, I learned that the you can open the virtual instrument from Finale (The Garritan Personal Orchestra, among other Garritan Libraries) inside Logic Pro, and that has worked for a while., and I feel it is time that I upgrade to a legit library. I don't really care for Garritan instruments and, I really don't like the sound of some of the baselines Garritan-Finale Sounds.

I have read up on libraries and know all the big players, cinesamples, spitfire, 8dio, etc. But I have a few limitations, first, I am trying to stay away from Kontakt libraries at the moment. Being a high school student, I do not want to drop both the money for kontakt and an orchestral library at the same time, as it is just too much money. And I don't want to try to work with the free kontakt player when there are other alternatives.

Secondly, I do not want to go with VSL for the same reason, It would cost a lot of money to get a full orchestral experience.

Which is where EastWest comes in, and I settled on the QL Symphonic orchestra over the Hollywood Orchestra, mainly because I could get the Platinum-Plus version, with all the features for less than $700 (with my sweetwater student discount), where as with the hollywood orchestra it would cost more to get the full orchestra, as well as the solo instruments.

I have heard some not too good things about EW though, mainly that their instruments are hard to install, the play engine is a pain, and it is a resource hog.

Here are my specs, I'm using a Late 2013 Standard IMac with an intel i5 core, with 8 gb of ram (which cannot be upgraded), and using Logic Pro X. If I were to put the EWQL Orchestra on an external SSD, and stream the samples, would it still be a burden, or is it possible, because I have heard stories of people with limited setups still working wonders with it.

Again, EWQL seems like the most reasonable decision as it still seems to be (or used to be) a staple in many composer's templates, It seems pretty cost effective, and the Platinum Plus version already comes preset on an SSD.

Also, I am aware of the ComposerCloud, but I was hoping to look into something more permanent in the studio (and it wouldn't run off of an SSD)

EDIT: This edit is being made long after the thread died, but if anyone so happens to come across this dead thread looking for advice, this is a great place, lots of great comments, however, I also want to add that nearly 2 years later, I will take back a lot of these statements I made. I very much use Kontakt in my everyday life now, All the mic positions are not necessary, and some other details as well.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 20, 2019)

JRod.Simons said:


> Hello! I have been composing for quite sometime in Finale, but upgraded to Logic Pro X, when I switched, I learned that the you can open the virtual instrument from Finale (The Garritan Personal Orchestra, among other Garritan Libraries) inside Logic Pro, and that has worked for a while, but I am practicing to become a professional composer sometime in the future after high school graduation, and I feel it is time that I upgrade to a legit library. I don't really care for Garritan instruments and, I really don't like the sound of some of the baselines Garritan-Finale Sounds.
> 
> I have read up on libraries and know all the big players, cinesamples, spitfire, 8dio, etc. But I have a few limitations, first, I am trying to stay away from Kontakt libraries at the moment. Being a high school student, I do not want to drop both the money for kontakt and an orchestral library at the same time, as it is just too much money. And I don't want to try to work with the free kontakt player when there are other alternatives.
> 
> ...



I would say you probably don't need it. PLAY is absolutely a PITA for people not used to it, but a lot of people will sing the praise of the quality of East-West. Since EW has its composer cloud, down the line it's easy to get into their products whenever you're ready. I 'd it might be worth it to consider something like Red Room Audio's Palette series which is a fraction of the cost and works with the free Kontakt Player.









Palette - Symphonic Sketchpad - Red Room Audio


The flagship of the Palette line! An extensive set of orchestral instruments to bring your cinematic ideas to life. Introducing True Ensemble Recording for strings, brass and woodwinds ensembles - each recorded in 2 different sizes with up to 10 articulations. Plus womens and mens choirs...



redroomaudio.com


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## rrichard63 (Oct 20, 2019)

You will get almost as many suggestions as there are readers of this forum. On a high school student's budget, I would look at Sonic Score's Amadeus for $149. It runs in the free Kontakt Player and includes solo instruments as well as sections. One advantage of Kontakt/Kontakt Player is that there are more libraries available than for any other platform.


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## Robert_G (Oct 20, 2019)

JRod.Simons said:


> Here are my specs, I'm using a Late 2013 Standard IMac with an intel i5 core, with 8 gb of ram (which cannot be upgraded), and using Logic Pro X. If I were to put the EWQL Orchestra on an external SSD, and stream the samples, would.......



I have CC plus and I wouldnt touch EW Hollywood Orchestra with that computer. Youve been warned.....


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## Mike Fox (Oct 20, 2019)

JRod.Simons said:


> Hello! I have been composing for quite sometime in Finale, but upgraded to Logic Pro X, when I switched, I learned that the you can open the virtual instrument from Finale (The Garritan Personal Orchestra, among other Garritan Libraries) inside Logic Pro, and that has worked for a while, but I am practicing to become a professional composer sometime in the future after high school graduation, and I feel it is time that I upgrade to a legit library. I don't really care for Garritan instruments and, I really don't like the sound of some of the baselines Garritan-Finale Sounds.
> 
> I have read up on libraries and know all the big players, cinesamples, spitfire, 8dio, etc. But I have a few limitations, first, I am trying to stay away from Kontakt libraries at the moment. Being a high school student, I do not want to drop both the money for kontakt and an orchestral library at the same time, as it is just too much money. And I don't want to try to work with the free kontakt player when there are other alternatives.
> 
> ...


 Bro, do not, i repeat, DO NOT spend $700 on Platinum Plus from Sweetwater! As much as i love that Symphonic Orchestra library, it is old, and outdated. It still has some nice gems in it, but you'd be throwing your money away at that point, especially since EastWest constantly has 50% off sales. In fact, you just missed one, but there will be another sale next month for BF.

If you are set on SO, then just get the Gold version when it's on sale. But keep in mind there are lots of options out there, so please don't rush into anything!


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 20, 2019)

There's a lot of options, but for all-inclusive orchestras, here's a generalization (because there's more options than I'm listing)...

The upcoming BBC Orchestra > Nucleus > (barely, and depending on needs/skills) The Orchestra, EW Hollywood Gold > (barely) Albion One > Amadeus.

Never buy East West for full price - as mentioned, they go for at least 50% off or more if you're patient. Not only that, but you'd want to subscribe to their cloud service first before purchasing - smart money for one month to try a lot of things out so you'd know what you might want, price depending.

Honestly, your best bet is to wait until Black Friday and buy EW Hollywood Gold (not easy to use, though) or the cheapest between Nucleus or The Orchestra Complete. Amadeus is, from what I've gathered and heard, worth about what you pay for it. That is, if you can only afford Amadeus, by all means, get it. If you can wait for BF, there'll be other - much better - options.


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## NoamL (Oct 20, 2019)

*8GB of RAM is going to be the limiting ingredient *in what you can create. I've been there myself, started doing VI soundtracks on an 8GB nonupgradeable Macbook Pro. With so little RAM, I don't believe that hosting the samples externally vs internally will matter much. I've never used an iMac but if it's a 2013 model there really shouldn't be any issue making use of 8GB RAM of audio samples streamed from disk.

You won't have issues with PLAY, either. The latest, free version PLAY 6 runs very smoothly. Earlier versions were a pain in the butt.

There are other options besides EWQLSO but that library has stood the test of time & I've heard lots of decent tracks made with it. I strongly recommend you get either EWQLSO or a comparable full-orchestra library with at most 80GB or 100GB total install size. Do not get a larger library (yet) no matter how tempting the features or price are. Many of the professional libraries released since 2009, well, you just won't be able to load all the instruments you want.

I see no logic at all in paying *$700 !!* for EWQLSO. You should get Composer Cloud. At $30/month you could use EWQLSO for two years at that price. Composer Cloud will also give you access to some other EastWest instruments like RA/Silk (Asian and African instruments) and some decent cinematic percussion. Keep in mind that "Cloud" just means "subscription," you are not actually streaming the samples over the internet, they are downloaded on your computer. Even if you run out of space and need to get a cheap SSD you can get a high quality one for a couple hundred bucks. _On top of all of this,_ is the fact that if you decide to keep going with this hobby or if you start to get professional success, you won't be using EWQLSO for long. It's not a bad library, it's just not professional grade anymore. Paying $700 for it in 2019 is a real ripoff. But for a student who's just starting to get into virtual instruments, by contrast, Composer Cloud is a pretty darn good deal.


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## Fleer (Oct 20, 2019)

Don’t know if the IK Multimedia 80% off sale on Miroslav 2 is still on at $99. Could be fun to start with. Otherwise, for your budget, get Spitfire BBC SO next Thursday plus a RAM upgrade. Anyway, your student status will indeed allow you to enjoy academic pricing with most developers.


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## constaneum (Oct 20, 2019)

i'll recommend BBC SO


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## Robert_G (Oct 20, 2019)

NoamL said:


> *8GB of RAM is going to be the limiting ingredient *in what you can create. I've been there myself, started doing VI soundtracks on an 8GB nonupgradeable Macbook Pro. With so little RAM, I don't believe that hosting the samples externally vs internally will matter much. I've never used an iMac but if it's a 2013 model there really shouldn't be any issue making use of 8GB RAM of audio samples streamed from disk.
> 
> You won't have issues with PLAY, either. The latest, free version PLAY 6 runs very smoothly. Earlier versions were a pain in the butt.



I keep forgetting that I have CC plus....meaning I have the Diamond and Platinum libs which are 24bit with the extra mics. Perhaps HW Orchestra Gold might survive on 8GB or RAM, but I'd still be wary if the template is big....regardless of whether you're streaming an SSD or not.


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## I like music (Oct 21, 2019)

TRY COMPOSER CLOUD FIRST TO SEE IF IT A) WORKS TECHNICALLY, AND B) WHETHER YOU EVEN LIKE THE SOUND!!!

Composer Cloud is actually perfect for this. Please do not spend 700 on the full library. If there is a) a sale on, and b) a Gold option (can't remember with EWQLSO) then those are far far better for you than what you're looking at.

+ve is that I know at least one pro composer that gets big jobs, and he still uses EWQLSO in his work!

But, man, try Composer Cloud subscription first, and see how your computer handles it, and how much you like it. Then you can make an informed choice.


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## gh0stwrit3r (Oct 21, 2019)

I’ve tried EW libraries (composer cloud) with an iMac 2013 an it was a complete disaster. Even with more than 8GB RAM. I was very disappointed cause I loved a couple of their sounds. Not the library you mention by the way, that one is a little bit outdated in my humble opinion.

Staying away from Kontakt isn’t always necessary. The big libraries from Spitfire Audio run in the free version. So that shouldn’t be any problem.

Maybe the BBCSO is a good option now?


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## Geomir (Oct 21, 2019)

As most people mentioned here, it's not worth it to buy a library at full price! Especially EW libraries that go on sale (usually 50%) almost every second month!

I believe that EWQLSO Gold Edition is always a very good choice to start with. Gold Edition features ALL the instruments and ALL articulations from the Platinum Edition. You can buy Gold Edition at about 250$ during one of the very common EW sales! I think it's the best value for money library right now in the market!

It's a full orchestral library (strings, brass, woodwinds, percussion), including also solo strings, grand piano, a beautiful concert harp and even a harpsichord. The only drawback (that's why you see comments "it sounds a little old and outdated") is that even if there are "legato articulations" for all the instruments, this legato is "artificial/scripted", while most newer libraries include true recorded legato transitions, which sound more realistic.

Gold Edition is 16-bit, it "weights" 33GB, so it should run fine on your system. If you want, you can google search "16-bit vs 24-bit sound quality". Depending on your needs, 16-bit could be more than enough for you (unless you go very professional)! Keep in mind that Audio CDs are 16-bit sound quality, and MP3s (320kbps) even lower sound quality! And most people that use normal headphones or speakers can't even tell the difference!

It seems that you budget is bigger than your IMac! Especially the part that you clearly wrote that your RAM in not possible to be upgraded is important! Even if you can afford Spitfire's BBC Symphonic Orchestra, would it run smoothly in your IMac?


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 21, 2019)

Has anyone tried Nucleus?





Nucleus (The Orchestral Core for Kontakt Player)


NOW UPDATED TO V1.3 WITH EVEN MORE CONTENT Working on the go? Nucleus preserves system resources while packing a mighty punch, with all the essentials of modern cinematic composition and an intuitive interface. Clean, compact, and easy-to-use, Nucleus is an all-in-one package that’s hard to...




www.audioimperia.com





A lot of free kontakt player compatible libraries.


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## Sovereign (Oct 21, 2019)

Upgrading your ram is not possible? Ouch. AFAIK, you can upgrade it but would have to take it apart if it's the 21,5 inch model. And if you have 700 bucks to spend, I would suggest getting the BBC Orchestra. With a student discount you'll be paying even less.


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## BlessedFountain (Oct 21, 2019)

IMHO, considering your limited computer and financial resources, I would recommend synchronised VSL SE 1 and the free Synchron player. It is currently $220 and VSL excellent programming (which is vastly underrated) ensures it will run smoothly on your computer. You will have all the essential orchestral instruments(solo and ensembles) and the common articulations.

Then save and save and work towards getting a more powerful computer ( these are virtual samples so your computer, your virtual studio, is beyond important), get great mixing gear(monitors etc) then and only then can you then explore the bigger libraries and be in a position to even utilise them fully.


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## Jdiggity1 (Oct 21, 2019)

I still use EWQLSO gold on my 2011 MacBook Pro and easily keep it under 8gb ram. You shouldn't have problems with it.
Another good alternative would be Orchestral Essentials by Project SAM.


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## AlegorieMusic (Oct 21, 2019)

I would add a vote to the "Don't spend" too much advice. You can find loads of cheaper orchestra samples.

What I would recommend though is looking for ones with easily assignable articulations. These will make the finished work a lot more realistic.

Spitfire produce "Albion One" which has excellent articulations and samples with realism and character. It also contains some percussion as well. Think it's about £400 but if you buy that you won't need anything else orchestral until you are getting pro/semi pro level.


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## AndyP (Oct 21, 2019)

BlessedFountain said:


> IMHO, considering your limited computer and financial resources, I would recommend synchronised VSL SE 1 and the free Synchron player. It is currently $220 and VSL excellent programming (which is vastly underrated) ensures it will run smoothly on your computer. You will have all the essential orchestral instruments(solo and ensembles) and the common articulations.


Full approval! For the price, VSL SE, or Synchronized SE is the best option, especially for RAM limited computers.
EWHO/ SO is great, but with the iMac it won't be a pleasure, not even the Gold version.


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## ism (Oct 21, 2019)

A major downside to VSL starting out it that it sounds terrible without a high end reverb. Or at least, my experience was that, for all the quality of the samples, I could never get a mix that sounded nice enough that I would actually want to listen to it. Ymmv

Other options might be to pick up things piece meal. Light and sound chamber string, or spitfire studio strings are affordable and both excellent. 8dio occasionally has very good sales on their woodwinds (I think I got the piccalo for ~$8). 8dio Agitato sordino have been on sale for ~$48 if I recall (I would avoid the other 8dio strings at this stage though).

You’ll need Kontakt for some of these options of course, but with a $700 budget, research carefully, wait for BF, and you might be amazed. 

If I were doing it again, I’d hold out for Spitfire symphonic winds, the some decent strings, then maybe a nice deeply sampled euphonium ensemble or something, and of course I can’t imagine life without the Olafur Arnold’s Chamber Evo ... but of course yyym.

Also an external ssd on a 8G max is quite a good thing - it means you can purge the samples and often still be able to play most instruments.


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## BlessedFountain (Oct 21, 2019)

The Synchronised line sorts out the reverb problem.

The key point here is that this person's computer resources is limited, it is indisputable no matter what one feels about VSL that their software player and samples programming is the best in the industry(by a long mile) and will actually run given the limited computer resources available.

Most modern VI libraries are dependent on one utilising the various mic options and positions they offer, they have not really pushed the boundaries in terms of actual programming and computer resource management. They in fact rely on and need more resources not less. What would be the point of getting a library that one can't utilise the plethora of mic options available? Or whose scripting mean constant headaches which an otherwise powerful computer would have mitigated.

So from a practical point of view I would recommend just putting the funds towards getting a more powerful computer, BF is coming up and there would be hardware deals to be had(including checking out refurbished hardware).

However if a new VI library has to be purchased, IMHO it is wiser to go for one that is designed for limited resources. A library one can actually use to it's maximum potential without headaches.


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## ism (Oct 21, 2019)

BlessedFountain said:


> The Synchronised line sorts out the reverb problem.
> 
> The key point here is that this person's computer resources is limited, it is indisputable no matter what one feels about VSL that their software player and samples programming is the best in the industry(by a long mile) and will actually run given the limited computer resources available.
> 
> ...




Excellent points.


I'll quality though, that in practice, with an external SSD, and a bit of purging and freezing, I can get pretty far with 8G, even using multiple mics. Another way to say - what's stopping me from writing amazing music isn't my laptop specs. 


Moreover, there's a very different aesthetic that comes with ethos of the kinds of library that tend to be multi mic. And to my ear - and within the idiosyncrasies of what I like to write - it's indispensible, and entirely worth a bit of messing around with purging and freezing.

Lots of other ways to think about it of course.


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## MauroPantin (Oct 21, 2019)

I started with EWQLSO and I think it was great at the time. No real legato, though, so it is sub-par by today's standards. Hollywood Orchestra is better, but still, there are quirks here and there. No library will do everything, and no library will have the exact balance of control/playability you are looking for. You always have to go under the hood to get the extra 20%, and also mix and match with other libraries.

Some people like PLAY and EW. Some people don't. If I were you, I would just get Composer Cloud for a couple of months and try it out. Then if you don't like it you can look elsewhere. Say what you want about EW, but as far as I know, they are the ONLY company in the industry that allows you to test drive the samples (for a very small fee).


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## I like music (Oct 21, 2019)

MauroPantin said:


> Say what you want about EW, but as far as I know, they are the ONLY company in the industry that allows you to test drive the samples (for a very small fee).



Cannot overstate this point enough. World class sound, on your computer, at $30 per month, and you can cancel the subscription with a month notice (though please be careful, one or two of the options *will lock you in for the year if you don't read it carefully*). Given that you normally have to take (a bit of) a leap of faith with libraries, and put down some absolutely serious money, this option is unbelievably good. Despite all the good products I have acquired, I would recommend this route to _anyone_ who is starting off in this.


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## rudi (Oct 21, 2019)

A few more points:

As others have said do not spend that amount on buying a full EW library yet.
I made the mistake of buying into it before I knew what I was doing.
The Composer Cloud subscription is a good way to try EW and PLAY first, and you can cancel it.

Most major libraries use the Kontakt "Player" (check the online requirement to check those only work with the full Player) so there is no extra expense.

You should also find out whether "ensemble" patches where all the various section instruments are laid out as a single patch (for instance a blend of the violins at top, with violas, celli and basses below) are your preference (e.g Albion One Strings), or the more "traditional" layout where you have to write each instrument part individually (i.e write for 1st Violins, then 2nd Violins, Violas, Celli and Basses).

Although we tend to speak of "orchestral" libraries in general, in reality depending on their section sizes, layout, location, depth of sampling, how dry or wet, microphone positions etc. they can sound and play very differently. The "ideal" orchestral sound is a very personal thing... only you can decide which it is.

Some can sound like a more traditional concert orchestra; others have a more cinematic sound; some are specialised to create a more specific sound, such as trailers, hyped or more gentle sounds... you need to decide which sound you want to go after. Some libraries _can_ be used across genres, but you need to know what to do.

Walkthroughs are a very useful tool to get a taste of how they will sound - with the proviso that there are very talented composers that could make virtually any library sound good. It is also important to know if any additional processing or mastering was applied as that can affect the end result. Out of the box walk throughs are the best.

Finally, it is a process... starting with some of the basics and gradually improving.

Welcome to VIs!!!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 21, 2019)

Jdiggity1 said:


> I still use EWQLSO gold on my 2011 MacBook Pro and easily keep it under 8gb ram. You shouldn't have problems with it.
> Another good alternative would be Orchestral Essentials by Project SAM.



+1 to this.

I actually did quite a few productions with SO Gold years ago, using only 4GB Ram, it's a very resource-friendly library. Plus, anyone who still claims PLAY is a nightmare to use is just full of balogne. 

In a addition to Orchestral Essentials, I recommend Project SAM's Symphobia.


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## Willowtree (Oct 21, 2019)

@JRod.Simons, @Geomir's post is on the whole very useful, however:


Geomir said:


> As most people mentioned here, it's not worth it to buy a library at full price! Especially EW libraries that go on sale (usually 50%) almost every second month!


I understand what you're saying Geomir, but I would like to add this depends heavily on the developer. A lot of sample developers never have sales, and some have a lot of sales because they have to in order to keep going.

Don't just buy things on sale, buy things you think are worth your money.



Geomir said:


> If you want, you can google search "16-bit vs 24-bit sound quality". Depending on your needs, 16-bit could be more than enough for you (unless you go very professional)! Keep in mind that Audio CDs are 16-bit sound quality, and MP3s (320kbps) even lower sound quality! And most people that use normal headphones or speakers can't even tell the difference!


There is no audible difference between 16-bit and 24-bit recordings if you're listening at a reasonable level (under 120 dB, which I sincerely hope you are since 120 dB causes instant permanent damage to your ears  ).

Unless you're working with a lot of gain (unlikely with sample libraries) it's also not going to matter much for mixing, so you can safely stick to 16-bit in 90% of cases.

The quality of MP3s is highly variable. The bit rate itself can vary from at low as 8 kbit/s to 320 kbit/s.

However, I'd like to add the standard bit rate for Audio CDs is 16-bit depth and 44100 Hz sample rate, which for playback purposes is effectively the same as 320 kbit/s.

Though, the lossy data encoding used by MP3s means that a lot of information is lost when you render MP3 audio files.

In other words: For most purposes, 16-bit will be fine and will save you RAM and hard drive space, never use MP3s.

(to be clear, I'm not implying what @Geomir said is wrong or misinformation in any sense of the word, his post was very good, I'm just adding to what he said)


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## Willowtree (Oct 21, 2019)

rudi said:


> Although we tend to speak of "orchestral" libraries in general, in reality depending on their section sizes, layout, location, depth of sampling, how dry or wet, microphone positions etc. they can sound and play very differently. The "ideal" orchestral sound is a very personal thing... only you can decide which it is.


Such an excellent statement often forgotten in threads like this across the internet. Orchestral layout and seating especially is a lot more variable than many seem to think.

For example, let's take strings. I've seen some argue they prefer to leave strings in their "traditional" placement, (from left to right): Violins I, Violins II, Violas, Cellos, Double Basses. However, that particular seating didn't develop until the 20th century, a European innovation by Stokowski.

And no, unlike what the internet will have you believe, there's no such thing as "American" and "European" seating, which is just plain misinformation spread by people who don't know any better.

Anyhow, you'd want the Violins I and Violins II next to each other so they can read from each other's performance. Essential in a live performance. When recording, it may not be as important, so you might opt for a different seating: Violins I, Violas, Double Bass, Cellos, Violins II. That way, you'll get a wider sound, and having the bass in the middle may be desirable in a lot of cases.

In other words, there's no such thing as an ideal orchestral sound and as @rudi says, it's all very personal.


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## Illico (Oct 21, 2019)

Welcome to VI's Control.

1- Buy and use SSD disks (you'll consume less RAM)
2- Use Composer Cloud for a couple of months and try it out
3- Wait for Spitfire BBCSO first feedback about RAM usage, etc
4- Then you'll see...do not rush.

The BBCSO (2019-20XX) seems to become the new EWQLSO library of his time (2005-2015), a new "reference".

I have EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Gold since 2016, on a I7 PC with SSD disks, first with 16 Go RAM then now with 32Go RAM (I also have some Full kontakt libs, Embertone, 8dio, etc), I'm happy with it, only need a better legato articulation.

Tips:
- Only buy libraries you REALLY need, then wait for sales (-20%, -50%, -70%)
- All libraries need a "learning curve".
- Be careful with VI forum marketing attacks


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## AndyP (Oct 21, 2019)

Illico said:


> - Be careful with VI forum marketing attacks


The most important of all points!


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## Sopranos (Oct 21, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> +1 to this.
> 
> I actually did quite a few productions with SO Gold years ago, using only 4GB Ram, it's a very resource-friendly library. Plus, anyone who still claims PLAY is a nightmare to use is just full of balogne.
> 
> In a addition to Orchestral Essentials, I recommend Project SAM's Symphobia.


In Logic? Care to share a project to see what a production looks like in this resource-friendly claim?

Cheers!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 21, 2019)

Sopranos said:


> In Logic? Care to share a project to see what a production looks like in this resource-friendly claim?
> 
> Cheers!



No, it was my pre Mac days. I was using Sonar 8 on a PC (ten+ years ago). Keep in mind, that library came out when having 8GB Ram was a big deal. I don't even recall going over 2GB with larger projects.


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## JohnG (Oct 21, 2019)

I think I paid $4,300 for EWQLSO complete -- when it first came out. It was worth it then, and it still has its charms.

Nevertheless, today, i would urge you (if you can), to get a better computer, most likely a desktop, and go for Spitfire's new BBC orchestra library.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 21, 2019)

JRod.Simons said:


> Which is where EastWest comes in, and I settled on the QL Symphonic orchestra over the Hollywood Orchestra, mainly because I could get the Platinum-Plus version, with all the features for less than $700 (with my sweetwater student discount)



You could get the student discount on BBCSO, I think the sale ends tonight. That would get you this awesome library for $600.


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## Geomir (Oct 21, 2019)

Willowtree said:


> I understand what you're saying Geomir, but I would like to add this depends heavily on the developer. A lot of sample developers never have sales, and some have a lot of sales because they have to in order to keep going.
> 
> Don't just buy things on sale, buy things you think are worth your money.


Thanks for clarifying this, actually that's what I was trying to say! *If* someone decides to buy an EW Library, and only in that case, then it's really worth it to wait a few weeks for their next sale!  

Also thanks for completing my post about 24-bit vs 16-bit vs 320 kbps. I think you covered everything in more detail! The OP should have all the information he needs!



JohnG said:


> I think I paid $4,300 for EWQLSO complete -- when it first came out. It was worth it then, and it still has its charms.


HOLY SH..!!!!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 21, 2019)

It's crazy to me how on this board BBCSO is already being touted by so many as the new standard, the best orchestral package, etc., and is wholeheartedly recommended to newcomers on several occasions. Please. That's some ridiculous brand loyalty groupthink that's going on. The damn thing is not even out yet, and even when it is, it might not be the non plus ultra for everyone and anyone.

For Christ's sake, don't pre-order something that costs 750 bucks and isn't even out yet if you're planning your first orchestral samples purchase.


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## rrichard63 (Oct 21, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> don't pre-order something that costs 750 bucks and isn't even out yet if you're planning your first orchestral samples purchase.


Absolutely, yes. But someone in the OP's situation, with up to $700 available and able to get a student discount from Spitfire, might want to wait until BBCSO has been out for a couple of weeks before buying anything else. This suggestion does assume, however, that it is likely to perform satisfactorily in 8 GB of RAM.


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## JohnG (Oct 21, 2019)

rrichard63 said:


> This suggestion does assume, however, that it is likely to perform satisfactorily in 8 GB of RAM.



Actually, no. My suggestion to the OP, regarding BBC orchestra, was predicated on his/her getting a better computer, most likely a desktop.

And @Jimmy Hellfire -- I don't think recommending Spitfire's library is "ridiculous" at all. I have many (most?) of Spitfire's orchestral libraries, including HZ strings (which incorporates their player, and which I use constantly) so I have a reasonable basis for extrapolating that this library will be solid. In my judgement, based on experience over time, Spitfire have demonstrated a devotion to quality. 

Judging by the demos, the sound of this BBC orchestra is excellent and it's quite affordable. They are offering first chairs, a surprisingly comprehensive set of articulations, and many mic positions, which makes the library flexible.

I would never suggest to someone to buy a now-14 or 15-year old library, as much as I loved EWQLSO at the time, instead of the BBC one.

*Constraints?*

If the OP doesn't have money for a new computer, then EWQLSO might make sense, especially on a subscription basis so he or she can try it. When it was originally issued, the manual recommended two PCs _per section_ to run it fully. Now it probably does run pretty well on a laptop.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 21, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Actually, no. My suggestion to the OP, regarding BBC orchestra, was predicated on his/her getting a better computer, most likely a desktop.
> 
> And @Jimmy Hellfire -- I don't think recommending Spitfire's library is "ridiculous" at all. I have many (most?) of Spitfire's orchestral libraries, including HZ strings (which incorporates their player, and which I use constantly) so I have a reasonable basis for extrapolating that this library will be solid. In my judgement, based on experience over time, Spitfire have demonstrated a devotion to quality.
> 
> ...



Not suggesting that EWQLSO would be the more sensible choice. I'd most certainly recommend BBCSO over EWQLSO - obviously.

It just strikes me as quite laughable that BBCSO is already being treated as the 2nd coming of Christ by some, which just is ridiculous, given the fact that absolutely noone was able to get their hands on the thing yet. And these are exactly the people who in a matter of 2 months will be back on the quest for the ultimate, no this time for real, must have thing that will totally elevate everything they do. No matter the pedigree and track record of any developer - they all have some duds and things can always turn out not that optimal. Many times bitten, in the meantime a bit more shy.

Not saying that this will be the case with BBCSO, mind you. In fact, to me it seems that it's gonna be more of the same. Which should be pretty great overall, but still not for everybody and not quite the magic bullet. I have a lot of SF stuff too, and it's been hit and miss, so I too have a reasonable basis for extrapolating that "wait and see" is a sensible approach.


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## Geomir (Oct 21, 2019)

@JRod.Simons 

Another laptop-friendly orchestral library (that is rarely mentioned in this forum) is UVI's Orchestral Suite. It has a modern easy-to-use interface, it's less than 5GB and it contains all the orchestral essentials (strings, brass, woodwinds, percussion), including all instruments in solo versions (but don't expect true legato of course), plus many extras, like pipe organ, choirs, classical guitar, harp and harpsichord!









UVI Orchestral Suite - The Essential Symphonic Orchestra Collection


UVI Orchestral Suite - Including over 60 instruments, Orchestral Suite delivers a stunning natural realism and exquisite playability




www.uvi.net





There are many demos, you can judge for yourself. Maybe this suites you perfectly until you get that desktop PC that will allow you to run newer and bigger libraries, like i.e. EWHO, Steinberg Iconica, OT Metropolis Ark(s) or Spitfire's BBC Orchestra (among others).


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## Jdiggity1 (Oct 21, 2019)

Sopranos said:


> In Logic? Care to share a project to see what a production looks like in this resource-friendly claim?
> 
> Cheers!


Here's a sketch from a few years ago. The whole project used 4GB of memory using Symphonic Orchestra Gold, made on a 2011 MBP. Perhaps not the best mock-up in the world but for a resource footprint like that, I was happy.






There were more strings tracks loaded than what is shown

EDIT: This project was updated and made for Logic Pro as well as Cubase. And now available here: https://www.synthestration.com/product/symphonic-explorations/


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 21, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Not suggesting that EWQLSO would be the more sensible choice. I'd most certainly recommend BBCSO over EWQLSO - obviously.
> 
> It just strikes me as quite laughable that BBCSO is already being treated as the 2nd coming of Christ by some, which just is ridiculous, given the fact that absolutely noone was able to get their hands on the thing yet. And these are exactly the people who in a matter of 2 months will be back on the quest for the ultimate, no this time for real, must have thing that will totally elevate everything they do. No matter the pedigree and track record of any developer - they all have some duds and things can always turn out not that optimal. Many times bitten, in the meantime a bit more shy.
> 
> Not saying that this will be the case with BBCSO, mind you. In fact, to me it seems that it's gonna be more of the same. Which should be pretty great overall, but still not for everybody and not quite the magic bullet. I have a lot of SF stuff too, and it's been hit and miss, so I too have a reasonable basis for extrapolating that "wait and see" is a sensible approach.



I'm buying it because it's exactly what I'm after. Like @JohnG, I also shelled out a few grand for EWQL Complete many years ago (pre PLAY), and later on Hollywood Strings and Brass, so paying the intro price for this library is a total steal IMO. It's pretty much the same price as one section from the Spitfire SSO. I love the new player, the demos, and the sounds played in the walkthrough videos. If it sucks, then it's my loss, but I'm sure it will deliver.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 21, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> It's crazy to me how on this board BBCSO is already being touted by so many as the new standard, the best orchestral package, etc., and is wholeheartedly recommended to newcomers on several occasions. Please. That's some ridiculous brand loyalty groupthink that's going on. The damn thing is not even out yet, and even when it is, it might not be the non plus ultra for everyone and anyone.
> 
> For Christ's sake, don't pre-order something that costs 750 bucks and isn't even out yet if you're planning your first orchestral samples purchase.



Yeah it’s alarming to see people recommend this without it being out yet, and without trying the player....is it a status thing?


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## Hanu_H (Oct 21, 2019)

I have also had EWQLSO for a long time, bought it before PLAY and it was my only library for years. It has some great patches(percussion and some effects mostly) but overall it's really outdated in every way. I've said it many times here as well, that I really don't think it's a good library for beginners. It's really a confusing library with a lot of different patches with difficult names to learn. If EW would update it and make it "modern" with keyswitches, etc, it would be an option, but at the moment I don't recommend it to the beginners. I did use it with 4 gigs of ram for years, but I had to do a lot of track freezing. I think you'll get a lot better and faster results with something like the VSL Synchronized SE or even with The Orchestra. You should also check out the Steinberg's Iconica if you get a student discount on it and you can try it 30 days for free.









Iconica: VST Orchestra Library


Iconica was recorded in legendary Funkhaus Berlin and brings exceptional modern orchestral expression to professional composers.




www.steinberg.net


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## José Herring (Oct 21, 2019)

It was my first major library purchase and I still use some of it to this day along with Hollywood Orchestra and CS. I'm using some of the tuned percussion right now and also the double basses are really good down bellow for weight.

But......If I were starting all over again and was in a position of getting only one library, I would get BBCSO. Not that much more money than EWQLSO is today. Certainly way less than when EWQLSO was released. But, BBCSO offers so much more.

We've entered an age where before BBCSO was released I would have said and did say EWQLSO was still a good choice, but now,nah... BBCSO is the new all in one and then you can get other more boutique specialized libraries to fill in the gaps or to add to that base.


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## Uiroo (Oct 21, 2019)

Of course BBCSO is the obvious consideration if you don't have anything at all. A full orchestra at that price, with legato, first chair's, all sections, etc. Is there anything like that?

And of course you should wait until it's released and check the reviews before spending all the money you have on it.

But unless it's not really disappointing it looks to me like it's the best choice for someone starting out.


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## SergeD (Oct 21, 2019)

Are you so in a hurry? Keep your money for a new pc laptop, download a free library like DrumMic'a (https://en-us.sennheiser.com/drummica) which will allow you to get on sale a Kontakt crossgrade version having plenty of instruments + some free libraries available from developers.

Invest your money instead of spending it


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## José Herring (Oct 21, 2019)

SergeD said:


> Are you so in a hurry? Keep your money for a new pc laptop, download a free library like DrumMic'a (https://en-us.sennheiser.com/drummica) which will allow you to get on sale a Kontakt crossgrade version having plenty of instruments + some free libraries available from developers.
> 
> Invest your money instead of spending it


Is it weird that I can understand everything he is saying in German in that video? I've watched way to many product videos at this point.

And why is Sennheiser using Nuewmann mics for their product? You think that they would stick exclusively to Sennheisers.


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## PaulieDC (Oct 21, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Nevertheless, today, i would urge you (if you can), to get a better computer, most likely a desktop, and go for Spitfire's new BBC orchestra library.



I second the motion.


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## PaulieDC (Oct 21, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Not suggesting that EWQLSO would be the more sensible choice. I'd most certainly recommend BBCSO over EWQLSO - obviously... No matter the pedigree and track record of any developer - they all have some duds and things can always turn out not that optimal. Many times bitten, in the meantime a bit more shy.
> 
> Not saying that this will be the case with BBCSO, mind you. In fact, to me it seems that it's gonna be more of the same. Which should be pretty great overall, but still not for everybody and not quite the magic bullet. I have a lot of SF stuff too, and it's been hit and miss, so I too have a reasonable basis for extrapolating that "wait and see" is a sensible approach.



Thing is, for a budding composer it's quite a good start regardless of what finer points are missing. It's full orchestra for under a grand that isn't recorded to be cinematic sliced bread. We already know it sounds good, certainly for an up-and-coming, and you have the whole orchestra to pick from. The goal right now is composing, not submitting a final piece to JJ Abrams.


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## PaulieDC (Oct 21, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Not suggesting that EWQLSO would be the more sensible choice. I'd most certainly recommend BBCSO over EWQLSO - obviously... No matter the pedigree and track record of any developer - they all have some duds and things can always turn out not that optimal. Many times bitten, in the meantime a bit more shy.
> 
> Not saying that this will be the case with BBCSO, mind you. In fact, to me it seems that it's gonna be more of the same. Which should be pretty great overall, but still not for everybody and not quite the magic bullet. I have a lot of SF stuff too, and it's been hit and miss, so I too have a reasonable basis for extrapolating that "wait and see" is a sensible approach.



Thing is, for a budding composer it's quite a good start regardless of what finer points are missing. It's full orchestra for under a grand that isn't recorded to be cinematic sliced bread. We already know it sounds good, certainly for an up-and-coming, and you have the whole orchestra to pick from. The goal right now is composing, not submitting a final piece to JJ Abrams.


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## José Herring (Oct 21, 2019)

Just to be clear though, I loved EWQLSO and still to this day think it's great. It has its pitfalls but you can learn what they are. I don't want my post to come across as slamming EWQLSO. Nick and Doug and when Jay was the rep, they've been nothing but kind to me over the years and the EW customer service has been nothing but friendly. 

I still use and still plan to use Hollywood Orchestra and many other EW products. 

Just that BBCSO seems like it is trying to be everything that EWQLSO was only with 15+ years of development behind it. So as ground breaking as EWQLSO was in the day, it's hard for that to compete unless they drop the price to a few hundred for the full version. But, it wouldn't make sense for EW to do that.

What I do hope they do is go back to the original recordings and not normalized the samples and not to overly srub the samples with noise reduction. If they did that I would in a heartbeat get it again even without legato samples. It's still has that big hall sound that is hard to replicate with samples recorded in studios and the engineer they used did a great job of capturing some really good recordings. 

It would be worth it to me if they just undid all the editing that they did to make it "bigger than real" and to just cut the original recordings as is without normalizing the samples.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 21, 2019)

Is it sad that many feel the peak options for this part of the market are a 15 year old product, or a product that hasn’t even been released yet? I have east EWQLSO, and really it was my first. It gave me enough to work with and learn, but still had me yearning for better in the end. I ordered BBCSO and I hope its as good as everyone here believes it to be. Maybe I’m just not as optimistic because after hoarding tons of libraries, I’ve found none are the holy grail and you’ll always end up wanting something else later.

i cant help but think that if I was coming out of school tryin to get my start, I’d focus on something that fits the current needs. I’ve heard a lot of praise for Nucleus, and Palette and Amadeus are great lightweight sketching tools to start. Surely one of those options would fit OPs immediate needs and system limitations. I mean, there are a lot of of libraries that are compatible with free Kontakt player and learning kontakt for the time being is an inevitable task.


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## paularthur (Oct 21, 2019)

I wish I could EWQLSO on Kontakt ...


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 21, 2019)

paularthur said:


> I wish I could EWQLSO on Kontakt ...



Any copies of the old kontakt version around still? Does the play edition have any major changes from the old version?


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## MauroPantin (Oct 21, 2019)

Hanu_H said:


> If EW would update it and make it "modern" with keyswitches, etc, it would be an option, but at the moment I don't recommend it to the beginners.



Just to clarify on this point, EWQLSO on Play 6 with a Composer Cloud subscription does contain patches with key switches and (simulated) legato transitions. It is still not as great by today's standards, but perfectly okay for sketching.


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## Dex (Oct 21, 2019)

OP, ignore all the people recommending the BBC orchestra. It’s not even out yet, so people have no idea how it feels, how easy it is to program, what bugs are in it, etc. People on this board hype the everloving shit out of things right before they come out and for a month or so after. 

If you’d asked last Christmas, you’d have had tons of people recommending Amadeus, not just to beginners, but to everyone. Nowadays people aren’t very enthusiastic about it, except as a beginner or sketching library. As for me though, I have it, I like it, and I would recommend it to you at this point in your career. It sounds a little “cheap,” but you can sound as good as most video game soundtracks (except the AAA ones recorded with real orchestras) with it. It’s also quite dry if you turn the built in reverb off, which can help with layering with other libraries later, or with mixing it in with other styles like pop or rock if you’re into that.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 21, 2019)

Dex said:


> OP, ignore all the people recommending the BBC orchestra. It’s not even out yet, so people have no idea how it feels, how easy it is to program, what bugs are in it, etc. People on this board hype the everloving shit out of things right before they come out and for a month or so after.
> 
> If you’d asked last Christmas, you’d have had tons of people recommending Amadeus, not just to beginners, but to everyone. Nowadays people aren’t very enthusiastic about it, except as a beginner or sketching library. As for me though, I have it, I like it, and I would recommend it to you at this point in your career. It sounds a little “cheap,” but you can sound as good as most video game soundtracks (except the AAA ones recorded with real orchestras) with it. It’s also quite dry if you turn the built in reverb off, which can help with layering with other libraries later, or with mixing it in with other styles like pop or rock if you’re into that.



I haven’t followed the BBCSO thread so I didn’t realize there was such a fever about it. This reminds me of when modern scoring brass came out and everyone was sure it was gonna be the next greatest thing...then there weren’t enough demos at release and when people got their hands on it reviews were mixed. It’s negligent to recommend BBCSO so highly when no one has even tried it yet. In my experience with The Hans zimmer player, it’s really not that great. I’m not totally convinced that spitfire has mastered their own player yet and i anticipate complaints will come from that. 

I agree with you. Amadeus didn’t blow me out of the water, but it’s a solid starting point. I prefer palette but either one has potential for a growing composer.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 21, 2019)

Dex said:


> OP, ignore all the people recommending the BBC orchestra. It’s not even out yet, so people have no idea how it feels, how easy it is to program, what bugs are in it, etc. People on this board hype the everloving shit out of things right before they come out and for a month or so after.
> 
> If you’d asked last Christmas, you’d have had tons of people recommending Amadeus, not just to beginners, but to everyone. Nowadays people aren’t very enthusiastic about it, except as a beginner or sketching library. As for me though, I have it, I like it, and I would recommend it to you at this point in your career. It sounds a little “cheap,” but you can sound as good as most video game soundtracks (except the AAA ones recorded with real orchestras) with it. It’s also quite dry if you turn the built in reverb off, which can help with layering with other libraries later, or with mixing it in with other styles like pop or rock if you’re into that.



I bought BBCSO, but I’m willing to take the risk. Spitfire is a reputable company with great products and a good track record. I agree one should wait until reviews are out there, but I’m confident this will be a gem.....and the all-in-one orchestral library I’ve personally been waiting for.


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## José Herring (Oct 21, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> Any copies of the old kontakt version around still? Does the play edition have any major changes from the old version?


I still use the Kontakt version. Never updated. I never will either. With the Kontakt version you can still get into the samples and edit them. I'm constantly surprised that many of the samples don't start right away, out of tune, ect... I've had to tighten up so many stacc patches because the sample start times were inconsistent.

I heard that they went in and re-edited all the samples for the Play version. I have yet to hear any real difference, but I noticed that all the demos are still the demos from the original version so I don't know. Maybe it got better when they switched to Play.

And, no it is no longer available as a Kontakt library. I still have to authorize my Kontakt version on the website and I have to do it by authorizing the fringin' Kompakt player, which I no longer have so my days of EWQLSO on Kontakt are numbered unless I can find and instal the original disk. 

So, I'm looking forward to BBCSO. It's time to make the switch and Spitfires other full libraries are way too expensive for me to even consider for a moment.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 22, 2019)

Two other libraries that are worth looking at:

Steinberg Iconica. I have it and I really like it. Plus if you have an e-licencer you can get a free 30 day trial. Its 150gb and I got it for sale for £ 400.00 (I'm VAT registered).

Also VSL Synchronised Special editions. I got volumes 1-4 for £ 580 when on sale from Time Space (they also sent me a voucher). I really rate this too as a start, I heard some wonderful demos and I'm getting to grips with the player. Also, lots of room to grow your orchestra. For example I can currently upgrade to synchronised Woodwinds for £ 130.00 as part of a current offer. If you buy from VSL (and get it during a sale) you get a 30 day return window, and you can also re-sell it later. (Just be aware of the dongle issues - which are not a problem for me).

However, BBCSO looks like it could be your best bet, but it's worth hanging on until its released into the wild.

It's telling that I'm not seeing anyone recommending the Spitfire Studio Series Core.


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## Marlon Brown (Oct 22, 2019)

Since you have a resource problem, I would recommend VSL. Their stuff is very resource friendly. To be honest though, you should just save your money and get a better computer. That will be your best bet.


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## I like music (Oct 22, 2019)

Geomir said:


> @JRod.Simons
> 
> Another laptop-friendly orchestral library (that is rarely mentioned in this forum) is UVI's Orchestral Suite. It has a modern easy-to-use interface, it's less than 5GB and it contains all the orchestral essentials (strings, brass, woodwinds, percussion), including all instruments in solo versions (but don't expect true legato of course), plus many extras, like pipe organ, choirs, classical guitar, harp and harpsichord!
> 
> ...



Wow! That trailer by Guillaume Roussel is amazing. How did I not know about this library? Would have saved a lot of headaches early on (on my 16gb of RAM a few years ago). Wait, as I type this I realise it also has a choir...? If OP had a better computer, I'd also throw HO into the mix, since I'm sure that Gold on one of the 50% sales can be pretty damn cheap.


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## Geomir (Oct 22, 2019)

I like music said:


> Wow! That trailer by Guillaume Roussel is amazing. How did I not know about this library? Would have saved a lot of headaches early on (on my 16gb of RAM a few years ago). Wait, as I type this I realise it also has a choir...? If OP had a better computer, I'd also throw HO into the mix, since I'm sure that Gold on one of the 50% sales can be pretty damn cheap.


I think that you have never heard about UVI Orchestral Suite mainly for 2 reasons:
1) It runs on it's own Player, made by UVI. So it's not a Kontakt or a Play library.
2) The reviews about it are OK, but not so favorable, so the general conclusion is that in the end you get what you pay for.

Still, if I had an older laptop with 8GB RAM, I would choose UVI's library over GPO 5, Amadeus, or Miroslav 2 CE. For me it sounds a little better. And yes the demos sound very impressive (too much reverb though) and the included choir sounds also nice!

But of course for the few extra bucks I would choose EWQLSO Gold over anything else over and over again!


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## I like music (Oct 22, 2019)

Geomir said:


> I think that you have never heard about UVI Orchestral Suite mainly for 2 reasons:
> 1) It runs on it's own Player, made by UVI. So it's not a Kontakt or a Play library.
> 2) The reviews about it are OK, but not so favorable, so the general conclusion is that in the end you get what you pay for.
> 
> ...



I never had any music growing up (no lessons etc) so I feel like I missed out big style, and now I'm trying to catch up in my mid-30s. This kind of stuff makes me happy for the coming generation, who are living in a comparative golden age. Libraries of a _good enough_ quality are becoming more affordable. This means many more kids will be able to learn in a whole different way.


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## Geomir (Oct 22, 2019)

I like music said:


> I never had any music growing up (no lessons etc) so I feel like I missed out big style, and now I'm trying to catch up in my mid-30s. This kind of stuff makes me happy for the coming generation, who are living in a comparative golden age. Libraries of a _good enough_ quality are becoming more affordable. This means many more kids will be able to learn in a whole different way.


So true! Notation Programs, Sample Libraries and DAWs can offer new and affordable ways for kids to discover and learn the world of music creation!


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## José Herring (Oct 22, 2019)

PaulieDC said:


> Thing is, for a budding composer it's quite a good start regardless of what finer points are missing. It's full orchestra for under a grand that isn't recorded to be cinematic sliced bread. We already know it sounds good, certainly for an up-and-coming, and you have the whole orchestra to pick from. The goal right now is composing, not submitting a final piece to JJ Abrams.



(Editor's note: Long ass rant not directed at any body in particular and wanders all over the place and I have no time to check for mistakes.)

Of course he should think that he's going to be submitting things to JJ Abrams. Why not? 


I hear what you are saying but also for a budding composer EWQSO library was created with a whole different set of standards that isn't around today. So, when he butts up against those "quirks" he'll have a hard time finding the support he needs to get over it. Not like back in the day when everybody had EWQLSO and the dry as a bone "VSL" orchestras and we developed a whole slew of techniques to get around the limitations, including scripts, legato scripts, ect. in Kontakt. All that now seems long forgotten and difficult to find. 

So, again, if I were starting out I'd go for the all in one library that is new and has built up on that past history and not the one that we've all moved on from. With EWQLSO he'll soon run into the flutes hitting 0db not even adding any other instruments. Then we'll have to go through and explain, you know everybody back then use to normalize every sample so you have to fully balance your template and you'll have to use cc11 to temper the dynamic range....yuck! For somebody who knows how an orchestra works figuring all that out was a nightmare. Seems like BBCSO already has that covered even with prefabbed templates to get you going. 

People say that we should "wait and see" but in truth even if they deliver on 1/2 of what they promised it's going to be light years ahead of just about everything in that price range and just about everything else. 

A full sampled orchestral package for under a grand was unheard of back when EWQLSO came out. That orchestra was $5000 full in and VSL when you added it all up was closer to $20,000. 

So we broke as composer are whining about $700 bucks yet we broke ass composers 15 to 20 years ago didn't think twice about dropping $2000 on one synth or $5000-$20,000 on sample libraries plus the 5 computers needed to run those dam things.

I'm not a fan boy as some suggest. I own "0" spitfire products. Not one. I met the chaps at NAMM once and boy are they really fine people. But, the price and what you get in their older packages was too prohibitive for me and just didn't seem like it was my type of sound. 

BBCSO though is a bargain. It sounds friging great. It is untried but so what. EWQLSO when I got it. I just took a chance on it and immediately started scoring films with it and used it exclusively on about 10 projects spanning about 7 years until I got HO. 

So it comes as no light thing for me, who has used nearly exclusively EW products in my main template to say, BBCSO seems like a really good buy. I almost feel like a traitor for saying that because I've been an exclusive user of EW products since 2005. Scored many films. Made some money at least enough that I'm still alive and my stuff is all paid for. 

I bought EWQLSO just based on the demos. I didn't know of any forum. I was not looped into the sample community. I took a chance and it has paid off but it was a rough learning curve with sleepless nights crying at 4am wondering why it sounded like it did. Finding the forums, posting music, getting bashed, reposting getting some praise, getting tips from guys like Craig Sharmat and many others until I finally figured it out. I wouldn't wish that on anybody since nobody is really fully using that library any more and me for one won't spend the time to gen in a new user on the quirks of EWQLSO. Would be a waste of time.

It's not being a "fanboy" to just say to an up and coming young composer to seriously consider BBCSO and to take a chance on this library and yourself by getting it and the computer needed to run it. It's just common sense. It's what we all did back in the day. Saw were the industry was heading and made that work. Lots of sleepless nights, lots of money wasted, lots of tears of sorrow and of joy, but in the end it all comes down to just taking a chance. 

That's what I kind of miss from these forums. When we had limited choices and limited options there was a huge effort to "make it all work" and make it better from the user end. Many of the pioneers of those days that did make it work and did make it better are now selling us their own libraries. 

I know I sound like a ranting old geiser. But, this idea that he shouldn't take a chance on an untested product because he's new is so ridiculous. This is when he should take a chance, bust out that credit card. Put down $700 for BBSCO and another $1200 to build his own PC and start friggin' making the best music he can. Not invest in a 15 year old product with little support and very little if any future. EWQLSO "WAS" groundbreaking. It is still very good. There's better.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 22, 2019)

josejherring said:


> I know I sound like a ranting old geiser. But, this idea that he shouldn't take a chance on an untested product because he's new is so ridiculous. This is when he should take a chance, bust out that credit card. Put down $700 for BBSCO and another $1200 to build his own PC and start friggin' making the best music he can. Not invest in a 15 year old product with little support and very little if any future. EWQLSO "WAS" groundbreaking. It is still very good. There's better.



Here here! Well said. Crap, I remember just buying the EWQL Complete Collection ten years ago, and didn't even flinch at shelling out $2000 or whatever it was. I bought based purely on the demos, that's it. There were no YouTube videos or anything, and I hadn't even heard of Kontakt yet (and it came with this microscopic GUI called Kompakt). I remember the box showed up at my house with 40+ DVD's, and it was pretty much up to me and the manuals to figure out how they worked...and they sounded EPIC. I think we just take everything for granted these days. You are right, $749 is an absolute bargain for BBCSO, especially if you get the educational discount at $600. You won't find a comparable VI anywhere. SF isn't going to release a half-assed product.


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## rrichard63 (Oct 22, 2019)

If the OP wants to put almost all his money in one place, it's worth noting that BBCSO will be available sometime late Thursday or Friday. (I just got the email from Spitfire.) The introductory price will continue until November 7, so he will have about two weeks to evaluate and decide.

I continue to think that he should also evaluate one or more less expensive alternatives, such as Amadeus or Palette. That would leave some money to put toward a more powerful computer.

Between these two options, I'm agnostic about which way he should go.


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## José Herring (Oct 23, 2019)

rrichard63 said:


> If the OP wants to put almost all his money in one place, it's worth noting that BBCSO will be available sometime late Thursday or Friday. (I just got the email from Spitfire.) The introductory price will continue until November 7, so he will have about two weeks to evaluate and decide.
> 
> I continue to think that he should also evaluate one or more less expensive alternatives, such as Amadeus or Palette. That would leave some money to put toward a more powerful computer.
> 
> Between these two options, I'm agnostic about which way he should go.


I think OP got scared off many days ago from the volume and depth of response.


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## GtrString (Oct 23, 2019)

Buy NI Kontakt instead. Much better first investment, imho. I got EWQL Gold 10 years ago, never used it, and even then it was old. Its like buying a dead race horse.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 23, 2019)

GtrString said:


> Buy NI Kontakt instead. Much better first investment, imho. I got EWQL Gold 10 years ago, never used it, and even then it was old. Its like buying a dead race horse.



Tit for tat. I’ve been using that library, still to this day, for over ten years. It was one of the best out there ten years ago.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Oct 23, 2019)

GtrString said:


> Buy NI Kontakt instead. Much better first investment, imho. I got EWQL Gold 10 years ago, never used it, and even then it was old. Its like buying a dead race horse.


Starting out by paying full price for Kontakt seems unwise when you can get it so heavily discounted just by buying basically any Kontakt Player library first, of which you're basically guaranteed to want at least a few sooner or later (or what are you even doing buying Kontakt?).


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## Robert_G (Oct 23, 2019)

With Black Friday coming up really soon...I'd put off anything until then.
Even the Free Kontakt player with some Symphobia wouldn't be a bad start. Symphobia is not a resource hog by any means.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 23, 2019)

Well. I’m glad THAT’S decided.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 23, 2019)

Review: Nucleus by Audio Imperia - Sample Library Review


Audio Imperia’s Nucleus: the new king of comprehensive Orchestral library? Jump to the Videos of Nucleus by Audio Imperia Jump to the Demos of Nucleus by Audio Imperia Review: Nucleus by Audio Imperia Nucleus is the new all-encompassing orchestral library by developer Audio Imperia. Will it...




www.samplelibraryreview.com


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## Geomir (Oct 24, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> Review: Nucleus by Audio Imperia - Sample Library Review
> 
> 
> Audio Imperia’s Nucleus: the new king of comprehensive Orchestral library? Jump to the Videos of Nucleus by Audio Imperia Jump to the Demos of Nucleus by Audio Imperia Review: Nucleus by Audio Imperia Nucleus is the new all-encompassing orchestral library by developer Audio Imperia. Will it...
> ...


Another excellent recommendation!


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## Mike Fox (Oct 25, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Not suggesting that EWQLSO would be the more sensible choice. I'd most certainly recommend BBCSO over EWQLSO - obviously.
> 
> It just strikes me as quite laughable that BBCSO is already being treated as the 2nd coming of Christ by some, which just is ridiculous, given the fact that absolutely noone was able to get their hands on the thing yet. And these are exactly the people who in a matter of 2 months will be back on the quest for the ultimate, no this time for real, must have thing that will totally elevate everything they do. No matter the pedigree and track record of any developer - they all have some duds and things can always turn out not that optimal. Many times bitten, in the meantime a bit more shy.
> 
> Not saying that this will be the case with BBCSO, mind you. In fact, to me it seems that it's gonna be more of the same. Which should be pretty great overall, but still not for everybody and not quite the magic bullet. I have a lot of SF stuff too, and it's been hit and miss, so I too have a reasonable basis for extrapolating that "wait and see" is a sensible approach.


I'm totally with you on this. Hit or miss really sums up my experience with SF libs. I've been wanting to buy the BH toolkit, but have been quite hesitant due to my inconsistent satisfaction with their libraries. Meh.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 25, 2019)

Robert_G said:


> With Black Friday coming up really soon...I'd put off anything until then.
> Even the Free Kontakt player with some Symphobia wouldn't be a bad start. Symphobia is not a resource hog by any means.


So true. ProjectSAM really knows how to program their libraries in a way that's incredibly resource friendly.


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## AndyP (Oct 25, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> I'm totally with you on this. Hit or miss really sums up my experience with SF libs. I've been wanting to buy the BH toolkit, but have been quite hesitant due to my inconsistent satisfaction with their libraries. Meh.


I just have a bigger criticism of the BHCT, and that's how the library is organized.
Extended patches, main patches in different folders and partly not all articulations are shown in the contact window.

Apart from that, BHCT is almost the best library I have in terms of basic sound and playability.


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## MarcusD (Oct 25, 2019)

Wouldnt even consider something like BBCSO with having 8Gb of RAM (if thats what you're stuck with). Even having 8GB in the machine doesn't equate to having 8GB free to use by your DAW and libraries as your OS will be using a couple gig off the bat.

TBH you'd be better off looking at Orchestral Tools Inspire series (or other libraries with a low memory footprint) Composer cloud is also fantastic! EW Hollywood Orchestra Gold is a great starter lib, offers more articulation than most other libs. No need to drop $700 on something you'll not be able to utilise due to lack of RAM.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 25, 2019)

AndyP said:


> I just have a bigger criticism of the BHCT, and that's how the library is organized.
> Extended patches, main patches in different folders and partly not all articulations are shown in the contact window.
> 
> Apart from that, BHCT is almost the best library I have in terms of basic sound and playability.


Thanks for that feedback!


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## AndyP (Oct 25, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> Thanks for that feedback!


Now that I think I know your taste, I think you'll like BHCT. S4 is of course still in the pipeline and I am very excited about it. 

Back to topic:
BBCSO seems to be a little sick right now, and my download isn't finished yet, so I can't tell the OP anything about it yet.

I stick with it, VSL Synchron SE 1 is a great starter library, especially for the sale price.


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## JohnG (Oct 25, 2019)

There is a lot of terrible advice on this thread.

The biggest investment we make in music is TIME. Wasting time on a feeble, or even "ok" library that is 15 years old is just terrible advice. You need a lot of skills to write good orchestral music with samples, but possibly the most important is knowing intimately each section of your pretend orchestra -- how to coax the most musical sounds from it so it is satisfying and, as far as possible, musically convincing.

It is bonkers to recommend to anyone a library that is 15 years old just because of computer resources. Given that a new computer is $1,200-$1,500 for quite a good PC, it makes far more sense to upgrade the computer and THEN discuss the best sounds available. That dollar / £ amount is far less than many courses in music, and even less than many libraries.

*Then*

I spent years with EWQLSO and it was great -- then. I wrote a lot of trailer music with it and movie/television music that still gets used. But I remember also its limitations, which are legion.

*Now*

Get a better computer and then re-do the conversation. If I had a son or daughter asking me this question I would tell him/her to save and replace/upgrade the computer; then, probably, buy the BBC library. The demos show that it clearly can sound great in the right hands, and it covers an enormous amount of territory for the price.

Why waste your time, and it takes sometimes years, learning the insides of a library that has been superseded in almost every respect, even by East West's own replacements? Get BBC, or Hollywood series, or something else. But for the money, BBC looks very attractive.


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## Geomir (Oct 25, 2019)

JohnG said:


> There is a lot of terrible advice on this thread.
> 
> The biggest investment we make in music is TIME. Wasting time on a feeble, or even "ok" library that is 15 years old is just terrible advice. You need a lot of skills to write good orchestral music with samples, but possibly the most important is knowing intimately each section of your pretend orchestra -- how to coax the most musical sounds from it so it is satisfying and, as far as possible, musically convincing.
> 
> ...



The OP asked a very specific question. He has his laptop, which cannot be upgraded, and is seeking a complete orchestral library that will be able to run in his laptop, so he can start composing with VIs that sound better than Finale / Garritan.

You took the easy way: you advised him to buy a new $1500 computer, and then spend another $1000 for BBCSO. Total $2500.

And all of the people that respected (maybe too much for his own good!) the OPs question, and suggested the best possible choices (always based in his question), offered - in your opinion - terrible advice!

What if the OP cannot have the money you are asking for? What if it took him 2 years to save this $700, and needs another 5 years to collect "your" $2500?

Do you have any advice (for an orchestral library that can be run in his laptop) better than the ones mentioned here? EWQLSO Gold, Berlin Series, Nucleus Core, Symphobia(s) are not bad at all (for starter libraries) and they are laptop-friendly.

These limitations you see in EWQLSO from years of experience with countless libraries and from a professional point of you, maybe they do not concern a hobbyist that likes to compose for fun or for learning! The problem with this thread is that the OP is not replying anymore, we don't know exactly what he wants, so we really don't know how to help him! Because in the end your advice is obviously the most wise one, but - believe me - if someone is a hobbyist in a low budget, it's not easy to follow it!

Hahaha if you were telling your kids to buy first a new computer and then their favorite library, I bet YOU would have to buy the computer for them!


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## BlessedFountain (Oct 25, 2019)

No offence intended, but isn't recommending a new library with no track record (it is so new that no one can make a logical assessment of its strengths or weaknesses)..........._terrible advice_?


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## Ashermusic (Oct 25, 2019)

JohnG said:


> There is a lot of terrible advice on this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Why waste your time, and it takes sometimes years, learning the insides of a library that has been superseded in almost every respect, even by East West's own replacements?



Devil's Advocate: UNLESS you disagree that the sound has been superseded by HO or others. I don't, but if someone wants a more concert hall sound, then QLSO has that. It also has a lot more articulations. Really, the only thing it is missing is "true legato" and I think that frequently is both over-employed and over-rated.


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## Geomir (Oct 25, 2019)

Ashermusic said:


> Devil's Advocate: UNLESS you disagree that the sound has been superseded by HO or others. I don't, but if someone wants a more concert hall sound, then QLSO has that. It also has a lot more articulations. Really, the only thing it is missing is "true legato" and I think that frequently is both over-employed and over-rated.


EXACTLY! Instead of people saying "it sounds old, it sounds outdated, it shows its age", wouldn't it so much more clear to just say "it lacks true legato"?

This library is not exactly 15 y.o. It has been upgraded again and again, re-engineered and re-programmed, and it runs smoothly in Play 6! EWHO is just a completely different library (which happens to be newer of course), but it's not a replacement of EWQLSO.

But why am I telling you this? You already know this!


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 25, 2019)

Just to chime in in support of EWQLSO. It was my first VI purchase as part of the CCC back in 2011 I think (aside from buying those old Jam Packs for Logic). I still use it today. Perhaps less, and in part that's from the projects I'm involved with, but it I think it still stands the test of time.

Here are the three projects I know of from past years that are almost exclusively EWQLSO. She Kills uses Stormdrum 2 heavily, both that and Nutcracker used some pads and effects native to Logic, and all three used EWQL Pianos, so there's that too. Honestly the piano included in EWQLSO is solid when not too exposed, and still pretty decent exposed as long as you don't bang on it. Few piano libraries even today capture the higher dynamic range without becoming overly harsh and synthetic, anyways. Oh and choir sounds would have been EWQL Symphonic Choirs.

Mind you these are pretty bright for my tastes now, so they sound a bit thinner than they could with proper mastering:

She Kills Monsters
The Last Nutcracker
Hamlet

So really this is more just an EWQL feature, but the Symphonic Orchestra was the backbone to ALL of the music I produced, even throughout undergrad. Like Geomir mentioned, there have been updates over the years, and Play 6 runs smoothly here (though so did 5 and 4, so not saying much for me). Is it the best beginners choice? Maybe not, but it's solid and I can vouch for the fact that it runs very well in Sibelius.

One other mention to make, however, if notation playback is all you're after, is Wallander Instruments Noteperformer. If you're just after hearing your score played back the best it can be from within a notation program, that's my recommendation. Even if not all of the sounds are the best (I'm not a fan of the choir or piano sounds personally), the playback intelligence is one of a kind, and would take a lot of heavy handed editing to recreate with VIs meant for a DAW.


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## JohnG (Oct 25, 2019)

I find the responses to my advice unpersuasive. Sorry. It's a waste of time to spend a year learning a 15-year-old library.

I appreciate that I told the OP to spend between $1800-$2500. I still think that is a far better course than to waste time learning a library that, by today's standards, is not competitive and sounds feeble by comparison to what's out there now. Time is not free; in fact it's our most precious resource.

_Especially_ if he's a hobbyist who's trying to write for the sake of the love of music (and if he's not going to hire live players to supplement), I would urge him to get a more recent product, simply because it's more satisfying and artistically fun.

Like some others here, I also made a lot of tracks and a lot of money from EWQLSO, but it always frustrated me, not as a money-maker, but as a _composer._ Its strengths are many, but its flaws and weaknesses are also very apparent. 

It is not that surprising that some of the tracks proferred as supposed examples of EWQLSO's supposed continued strengths are full of pizzicato and piano.

Don't get me wrong; the library is ok. Just nowhere near as satisfying, musically, as what's available now.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 25, 2019)

JohnG said:


> but as a _composer._ Its strengths are many, but its flaws and weaknesses are also very apparent.



You have just described every sample library I have ever owned.


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## I like music (Oct 25, 2019)

Ashermusic said:


> You have just described every sample library I have ever owned.



Except for one library. The _next_ one. Otherwise, what's the point in living?


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## germancomponist (Oct 25, 2019)

It would be cool if we would start a little competition: Let us do a short well known theme, played with EWQLSO Platinum orchestra and with the newest libraries.
Who will make a suggestion about a well known music theme for us? 
I would arrange it with my old EWQLSO Platinum - Kontakt version.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 25, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I find the responses to my advice unpersuasive. Sorry. It's a waste of time to spend a year learning a 15-year-old library.
> 
> I appreciate that I told the OP to spend between $1800-$2500. I still think that is a far better course than to waste time learning a library that, by today's standards, is not competitive and sounds feeble by comparison to what's out there now. Time is not free; in fact it's our most precious resource.
> 
> ...


I totally get what you're saying. Plain and simple, there's better options. MUCH better options. Why waste your time with something so ancient? That's a completely valid standpoint. 

However, i would hate for someone who is just starting out to spend that much money on a rig, only to discover that composing isn't their cup of tea, or doesn't compose enough to make it worth that kind of cost.

I used to teach guitar lessons, and whenever a student asked what kind of guitar they should buy, my recommendation was usually in the $200 range, mainly because a significant amount of them would quit, or not play enough to make an expensive guitar worth it.

Essentially, i believe that a beginner should start with the bare minimum, and work their way up to something more complex and high end. They will avoid potentially wasting money, and will more than likely appreciate their next big purchase even more. They might even learn a thing or two along their journey.

There's a reason your first car should never be a Lamborghini.


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## ism (Oct 25, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> I totally get what you're saying. Plain and simple, there's better options. MUCH better options. Why waste your time with something so ancient? That's a completely valid standpoint.
> 
> However, i would hate for someone who is just starting out to spend that much money on a rig, only to discover that composing isn't their cup of tea, or doesn't compose enough to make it worth that kind of cost.
> 
> ...



My Sense is that the EastWest lib here isn't really a starter model either, compared to other things that are available. 

And in this sense, if you consider the amount of time it would take to either create something interesting or discover composing isn't for you on EW vs something more beginner friendly, then maybe John's argument is really not so different for yours?



My sense is that


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## Mike Fox (Oct 25, 2019)

ism said:


> My Sense is that the EastWest lib here isn't really a starter model either, compared to other things that are available.
> 
> And in this sense, if you consider the amount of time it would take to either create something interesting or discover composing isn't for you on EW vs something more beginner friendly, then maybe John's argument is really not so different for yours?
> 
> ...


No, John's stance is very different than mine. 

For starters EWQLSO is a totally viable starting option (just not at the full price point).
I started out with Garageband JamPacks, and could only dream about one day using EWQLSO. When i got it, i vividly emember how easy and fun it was to use. For doing basic mockups, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that library, and it's actually quite easy to use (imho). Sure, it has a curve, but I learned a lot from using it too. 

Second, there are SO many other options now than just EWQLSO or BBC. This doesn't have to be an either/or scenerio. 

For a beginner who doesn't have much money, i think spending $2500 on a new rig can be a risky move. It's like recommending a luxery vehicle to someone who just got their license. 

There's nothing wrong with taking baby steps in this (usually) expensive field.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Oct 25, 2019)

It isn't full orchestra....

But LASS Lite (it's only strings) doesn't chew up a ton of CPU.
I have CC and avoid using the EW Orchestral stuff.
It just doesn't hold up to lots of other things out there.

With your computer (I JUST updated mine myself) you will be limited to only playing a few sounds (or ONE) at a time.

One other thing to look at is Steinberg's Iconica Ensembles.
More efficient, well recorded and the instruments aren't all separated.
Makes experimentation faster and easier but it is limiting of course.

Not expensive

You really do need more RAM though.


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## JohnG (Oct 25, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> i think spending $2500 on a new rig can be a risky move. It's like recommending a luxery vehicle to someone who just got their license.



I think the car comparison is a misleading, wrong-headed analogy that could hurt a beginner in at least two ways. 

*1. Learning from one library is not transferable* -- If you learn to drive on a cheap car, most of what you learn is applicable to any other car. By contrast, if you learn how to "drive" EWQLSO, a good bit of what you learn is not applicable (in some cases you have to un-learn it) to a different, better-sounding library.

*2. The new libraries are musically more satisfying* -- the surest way to giving up on composing is working hard and being rewarded with only a mediocre result. I'm not saying everything done with EWQLSO is mediocre, but I would say that it's a lot more rewarding working with the new libraries. I have abandoned many pieces / melodies / ideas that I commenced on EWQLSO merely because they didn't _sound_ that good. Now that I have better sounds, a lot of material sticks around that would otherwise have ended up in the dustbin.

Some people -- not saying you, Mike, seem to take pride in, "I learned to write with two bricks and a string, and look at me now!" I think that's rubbish. I worked with a video game composer this summer who'd never in his life had a note played by a live musician, and he went straight from midi (via some helpers) to a full orchestra and choir at Abbey Road. And why not? It's not like he's a bad composer -- why not make it sound amazing?

It did.


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## Robert_G (Oct 25, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Everything he said....



I agree with you and I don't at the same time. I'm almost a year into this. Around this day last year, I knew nothing about buying sample libraries...what the cost would be, the equipment needed...etc...etc....I knew nothing about this type of composing on a computer.

Then a friend of mine showed me his Steinberg Cubase Essentials....his free Kontakt player...a few elements level libs from Soundiron....and that's all had for libs. About 500$ in libs and he was making music. 
All he had was a basic gaming computer and a 61 key midi controller. Sounded like a plan...I'd use my computer get a midi controller keyboard and make music for less than 2k.

Here we are a year later, and I'm almost 10k into it and I haven't made a dime....although making money was never my intention. 

Started out with a brand new mid grade 88 key Roland Digital Piano. $2k...learned that the midi options on digital pianos suck so I bought a 49key midi controller as well.
My computer is pushing 3k. The Audio interface, monitor speakers, and subwoofer are 1k+. Didn't take long to realize I needed a 2nd larger computer monitor. Realized quickly 16gb of RAM was unrealistic....upgraded that.....realized that regular HDs suck....got a 2tb SSD upgrade....etc....etc..

Bought a 1 year subscription to EW CC + to get started while I waited for the stuff I wanted to go on sale.
Bought Komplete 12....upgraded to Ultimate during the spring sale. upgraded Cubase to Pro at the spring sale. $150 for decent headphones. 

Shortly after, bought Full Soundiron Olympus, Genesis, CSS, CSB, Emotional Cello, Violin, Ethera, SStW, VOR, Orange Tree Guitars, 8Dio Studio Sopranos....other 8Dio flash sales, L & S chamber strings, Realivox Blue, Rhapsody Orchestral Percussion....probably forgetting many of my libs. 

I'm the type of person that if I'm going to do something....I'm going to do it right. Trying to learn this on a 8GB RAM computer with ancient libs is just silly....but....I can afford to do this the right way. Can the OP...or is he just trying to be cheap?


My point is, even though this a hobby to me, I agree with John that trying to learn on what the OP has suggested is a bad idea. On the other hand, if the OP can't afford anything more, then we shouldn't berate him for it...and I think we have given him some good suggestions.
If he is serious about learning this, and simply doesn't want to spend the money because he is cheap...then like John is suggesting....he is just going to hurt himself. If he has no financial options and is a few years off being able to afford a nice setup and libs to go with it....it's still better to get into it now and learn what he can on his current setup until that time comes....so the suggestions given in this thread do have some merit.

Hope this helps.


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## CT (Oct 25, 2019)

I'm another person who started out with GarageBand Jam Packs, lusted after EWQLSO when that was the big thing (have I really been at this that long?), and dumped *a lot* of time into using flat out crappy virtual instruments because they were what I could afford.

Now, I wouldn't say that even in 2019, EWQLSO is as dodgy as some of the things I was using back in 2011, but from experience I can say that working with poor tools is a waste of time and money that you will absolutely regret, so in general I have to agree with JohnG that exchanging the money required for something "better" in order to save time is absolutely worthwhile.

The OP here sounds a lot like me back then, particularly the fact that they seem to be balancing learning the VI ropes with a more traditional approach to composing (and so doesn't necessarily *need* better gear right now to grow as a composer), so while "spend more money" might not be the most fashionable advice, it could be good advice.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 25, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I think the car comparison is a misleading, wrong-headed analogy that could hurt a beginner in at least two ways.
> 
> *1. Learning from one library is not transferable* -- If you learn to drive on a cheap car, most of what you learn is applicable to any other car. By contrast, if you learn how to "drive" EWQLSO, a good bit of what you learn is not applicable (in some cases you have to un-learn it) to a different, better-sounding library.
> 
> ...


I think you're reading too deep into the car analogy. It was simply a way to demonstrate that it's not a bad idea to start small when getting into a hobby that can be a rabbit hole...an expensive one at that.

I agree that it is much more rewarding working with libs that sound better and are easier to work with (i think we can all agree there). I just don't think you have to spend that much to accomplish that, especially in this day and age when both developers/libraries and sales are abundant.

Sorry, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree that a $2500 budget for a high school student who is just getting into composing is/isn't the best recommendation here.

Cheers.


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## ism (Oct 25, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I think the car comparison is a misleading, wrong-headed analogy that could hurt a beginner in at least two ways.
> 
> *1. Learning from one library is not transferable* -- If you learn to drive on a cheap car, most of what you learn is applicable to any other car. By contrast, if you learn how to "drive" EWQLSO, a good bit of what you learn is not applicable (in some cases you have to un-learn it) to a different, better-sounding library.
> 
> ...



This resonates with my (wholly amateur) experience. I think I used my GPO license twice before realizing I’m just not poor enough to have to listen to these strings. But more subtly, I remember slowly sinking into a kind of despondency from just never being able to get a mix with VSL SE that, however great the individual samples were, even came close to sounding like something I would actually want to listen to. In retrospect, if starting again, I would buy best in class libs, over a longer time period if necessary. But I just wouldn’t mess around with anything that isn’t great to save a few hundred dollars. Going from (badly mixed and reverbed) VSL SE to SSW, for instance, was like being able to suddenly breathe again.

And similarly, sample libraries aren’t like guitars, in that It’s worth learning on a cheap guitar, so you’re forced to learn to really work to make it sound good. But I think the analogy fundamentally just doesn’t transfer to many, perhaps most sample libraries. 


Can’t say I know anything about the EW library myself, but the interesting thing is whether the differences here are about the library itself or if the differences are in pedagogical strategy.


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## JonSolo (Oct 25, 2019)

The EW library is great. Not the most instantly gratifying library, but worthy as a starter. 

Still, not much beats Amadeus as a starter. I am still shocked at the number and variety of different instruments, articulations, etc. available with it. And the Symphony patch continues to knock my socks off in the instant gratification department!


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## Mike Fox (Oct 25, 2019)

JonSolo said:


> The EW library is great. Not the most instantly gratifying library, but worthy as a starter.
> 
> Still, not much beats Amadeus as a starter. I am still shocked at the number and variety of different instruments, articulations, etc. available with it. And the Symphony patch continues to knock my socks off in the instant gratification department!


It's kinda funny, even after all the thousands of dollars I've spent on libs, I've been thinking about picking up Amadeus. I just keep hearing how great it is, and it's dirt cheap to boot.


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## I like music (Oct 26, 2019)

Where is OP btw?


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 26, 2019)

I like music said:


> Where is OP btw?



probably went off to buy komplete 12 and call it a f'n day. that's what I would have done in response to such an overwhelming thread.


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## I like music (Oct 26, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> probably went off to buy komplete 12 and call it a f'n day. that's what I would have done in response to such an overwhelming thread.



Haha.

"Fuck music. I'm going to go ride Harleys." Or something.

What's weird is that this thread has some really comprehensive advice, and people are really going out of their way to help. But yes, it has become its own thing and I hope OP is in a position to pick the different positions apart and make a decision. If OP reads this, would love to know what he/she decided, or is thinking.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 26, 2019)

My first proper library was Symphobia. It is light on resources, sounds great, and gave me a basic understanding of orchestration when I learned to break down some of the patches and multis into their separate sections. For me it was a good start. Albion ONE or Berlin Inspire may be a good start too.

The great thing is that Symphobia is also re-sellable (if you purchase it new) though you'll have to pry my copy form my cold, dead hands. I still use it regularly today.

Later, when I became more experienced, I invested in my first 'section' and I bought Cinematic Strings 2. A string library that is still pretty sensational today. From there I continued to destroy my wallet. A process that continues to this day.

So I would at least consider kicking off with an ensemble type of library, with which you can make some pretty terrific music, and moving onto controlling individual orchestra sections when you have more experience.


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## José Herring (Oct 26, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> probably went off to buy komplete 12 and call it a f'n day. that's what I would have done in response to such an overwhelming thread.


Went to NI forum to ask, "is Massive a good starter synth?".


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## BlessedFountain (Oct 26, 2019)

ism said:


> Going from (badly mixed and reverbed) VSL SE to SSW, for instance



For me it is the exact opposite, I always return to VSL as going from the sophistication and complexity of VI Pro, Vienna Suite Pro, Synchron player and MIR Pro and the boat load of articulations and pristine samples that VSL offers; to the clunky buggy primitive resource hugging poorly programmed software players, noisy out of tune and poorly edited samples the so called modern libraries offer is untenable for me.
No amount of mic positions can cover for poorly edited samples or the inability to shape said samples however I please


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## Mike Fox (Oct 26, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> My first proper library was Symphobia. It is light on resources, sounds great, and gave me a basic understanding of orchestration when I learned to break down some of the patches and multis into their separate sections. For me it was a good start. Albion ONE or Berlin Inspire may be a good start too.
> 
> The great thing is that Symphobia is also re-sellable (if you purchase it new) though you'll have to pry my copy form my cold, dead hands. I still use it regularly today.
> 
> ...


Symphobia is excellent. The price is on point, and the sound quality is great.

Crazy to think that you can get both Orchestral Essentials 1 & 2 for less than $400 these days. And yeah, it's easy on resources.


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## dgburns (Oct 26, 2019)

Ashermusic said:


> You have just described every sample library I have ever owned.



You just described ME as a composer , double lol 😝


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## PaulieDC (Oct 31, 2019)

josejherring said:


> This is when he should take a chance, bust out that credit card. Put down $700 for BBSCO and another $1200 to build his own PC and start friggin' making the best music he can.


Couldn't agree more. Except that he's running a 6 year old i5 with 8GB ram. Given the environment he has, the older less CPU intensive library will run best, BBCSO will be a heavy load. And EWSO Gold is $399 right now, he doesn't need platinum.

I should note, in another thread directed at anyone starting out including myself, I said exactly what you said, assuming a "today" PC, get BBCSO, a daw of choice and start composing.


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## sphore (Nov 18, 2019)

Being new to this forum and starting out in the orchestral sample library domain again from scratch, I am pretty surprised about the kind of advise given in this forum. It tells me, that the majority seems to have a lot of libraries to choose from, so the entry level libraries of today aren't very well known by most active forum members.

Two "no brain" starting libraries are Nucleus and Amadeus. They are both friendly on ressources. No East West product is a real competition to those two based on severely lacking usability and/or huge disadvantages in ressource usage. The only reason EWHO gets recommended so much is it's very low sale price and it's availability in Composer's Cloud. And of course because it is (or has been) part of basically any seasoned composers sample library.

So in my eyes THE current starting library is Nucleus. And it apperas that it would be the main recommendation in this forum if Spitfire would have released it in the range between $600-800.

What is also in the range of BBCSO, especially if Nucleus or Amadeus are available to supplement the currently still missing elements, is Cinematic Studio Series on Black Friday sale price including the soon to be released CSW. It's comparatively light on ressources and has a great usability. Now BBCSO against CSS, CSSS, CSB and CSW for about $900??? Maybe supplemented just by Amadeus for percussion? Is BBCSO still THE current introductory library recommendation?

In my opinion it would be: 

1. Amadeus on a tight budget below $200.
2. Nucleus if the budget is a little bigger below $500.
3. If we are talking up to $1000 it would be CSS instead of BBCSO
4. If we plan with christmas and supporting parents, CSS & Nucleus
5. CSS & Nucleus & Amadeus should cover all bases, even more unique instruments. For below $1500 this should be a set up without any limitations to start composing the greatest orchestrations. Now learn those tools and don't enter this forum for the next three years, and you should be fine.

Aah, I made a mistake. No Kontakt? Then drop the price for an SSD and Amadeus, and get Kontakt and use the Legacy VSL orchestral sample library in the Kontakt Factory Library. If you want to become a professional composer, you need to use and buy Kontakt sooner or later, anyway. It will limit your choices all of the time, if the expansion of your library depends upon this limitation. I personally look especially for Kontakt compatibility. Then I know I have one headache less with this library.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 18, 2019)

sphore said:


> Two "no brain" starting libraries are Nucleus and Amadeus. They are both friendly on ressources. No East West product is a real competition to those two based on severely lacking usability and/or huge disadvantages in ressource usage. The only reason EWHO gets recommended so much is it's very low sale price and it's availability in Composer's Cloud. And of course because it is (or has been) part of basically any seasoned composers sample library.



Why should a "starter" library need to be a sacrifice in quality? I have tried Amadeus, and IMO it is not that great. Nucleus sounds pretty good, but I have not actually tried using it. With Amadeus you get exactly what you pay for. EWHO (and SO) are still excellent libraries, regardless of their price. I would put EWHO far above Amadeus...there's a reason why it's part of many composer's arsenals. And tit for tat, I would take BBSO over CSS (but that's just me). BBCSO is a complete orchestra, easy to use, and has an attractive price...especially if you get it on sale. heck, the student discount, if you watch out for the right sale, brings it to $595.


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## sphore (Nov 18, 2019)

EWHO is also a sacrifice in quality. It's time lost forever in achieving something, that Nucleus gives you basically for free.

Now BBCSO vs. CSS is a completely different discussion. But the discussion shouldn't be BBCSO vs. Nucleus. Or maybe Nucleus should have been priced according to Spitfire standards in the first place?


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## chocobitz825 (Nov 18, 2019)

sphore said:


> EWHO is also a sacrifice in quality. It's time lost forever in achieving something, that Nucleus gives you basically for free.
> 
> Now BBCSO vs. CSS is a completely different discussion. But the discussion shouldn't be BBCSO vs. Nucleus. Or maybe Nucleus should have been priced according to Spitfire standards in the first place?





sphore said:


> Being new to this forum and starting out in the orchestral sample library domain again from scratch, I am pretty surprised about the kind of advise given in this forum. It tells me, that the majority seems to have a lot of libraries to choose from, so the entry level libraries of today aren't very well known by most active forum members.
> 
> Two "no brain" starting libraries are Nucleus and Amadeus. They are both friendly on ressources. No East West product is a real competition to those two based on severely lacking usability and/or huge disadvantages in ressource usage. The only reason EWHO gets recommended so much is it's very low sale price and it's availability in Composer's Cloud. And of course because it is (or has been) part of basically any seasoned composers sample library.
> 
> ...



I agree. I would only say that nucleus and red room audio’s palette are close competition for this range. Not only does palette have more articulations, it has more instruments in the basic pack, with expansions for solo instruments if necessary. It also lets you set your Keyswitches so that you could easily match them to another library and blend together. It has a bunch of trailer effects, pianos and percussions and really is lightweight in my experience.

the only real difference between those two and Amadeus (being the subject of stance of sound quality) is that nucleus and palette seem to be more about ensemble patches, whereas Amadeus is like most of the larger libraries people are used to with different sections and instruments.


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## river angler (Nov 18, 2019)

I had been a Miroslav 1 user for decades! Then last year after a lot of deliberation I picked up Orchestral Tools Berlin Orchestra Inspire 1 & 2 in the fantastic Christmas sale on Native Instruments site. OT Inspire has been more than enough to mock up any orchestral work. Yes! you have to get Kontakt but for an overall outlay of well under £400 it was one of the best investments I've ever made!
Here's some evidence!...




__





Is this orchestra up to snuff ?


"Irresistible" is an original single movement concerto for alto sax and cello that invites you to take an intriguing 10 minute musical journey through all the senses!... but is the orchestra up to the task?




vi-control.net


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## sphore (Nov 18, 2019)

Now this sounds interesting. A comparison of Nucleus vs. Palette (SS & Melodics?) vs. Inspire (1&2?). Is one of those the complete package with the great sound, comparable to BBCSO and beyond? Or are all of those just the limited sketch libraries with small sample sizes, they are advertised at?


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## chocobitz825 (Nov 18, 2019)

sphore said:


> Now this sounds interesting. A comparison of Nucleus vs. Palette (SS & Melodics?) vs. Inspire (1&2?). Is one of those the complete package with the great sound, comparable to BBCSO and beyond? Or are all of those just the limited sketch libraries with small sample sizes, they are advertised at?



People keep forgetting the initial conditions. A computer with not a lot of resources, and a limited budget. To go out and buy BBCSO means no Kontakt and committing to the spitfire player. To get Inspire means having to buy full Kontakt (which is beneficial) plus the two inspire libraries. I think inspire are great, but I'm not sure if they fit the OP's needs. Palette and Nucleus both work with the free Kontakt player and both are very impressive for their price range. This leaves more money for the OP to spend on other libraries, FX, or saving up for a better computer.


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## river angler (Nov 18, 2019)

I think the OP needs to rethink about avoiding Kontakt. 

Kontakt is still the standard platform for so many of the best orchestral libraries out there both budget and expensive. I too battled with East Wests Player which IMO is counter productive to the quality of their samples. The full version of Kontakt comes with some very usable Vienna Orchestral instruments and a lot of other very good quality bread and butter VIs plus the player itself is comprehensively featured to organise your libraries and manipulate sounds at will. Kontakt's multi-instrument capability alone is a godsend for setting up combie custom patches made up from as many different VIs you like and even select them live on stage via program change messages if that's your thing too! Kontakt has become as standard as a sound supporting host platform as midi itself!

Again! I can't recommend Orchestral Tools Inspire series more highly! I run them along side all my other libraries on a second internal SSD on a mid 2012 Macbook Pro (swapped out the DVD drive!) Inspire 1 &2 only take up 34Gb! The mere fact one can choose to use velocity or the mod wheel to control dynamics in all of Orchestral Tools libraries is one of the main reasons I use them for enjoyable quality orchestral work. Generally I find the samples blend transparently with each other and any other VIs I use which pushes that envelope even more to fooling the listener into thinking they are listening to a live orchestral performance! 

If the OP waits for the looming seasonal sales I'm sure he'll spend a lot less than he originally anticipated both for Kontakt itself and any orchestral library. Besides Kontakt isn't the expensive part of the purchase!


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## MartinH. (Nov 18, 2019)

JRod.Simons said:


> Hello! I have been composing for quite sometime in Finale, but upgraded to Logic Pro X, when I switched, I learned that the you can open the virtual instrument from Finale (The Garritan Personal Orchestra, among other Garritan Libraries) inside Logic Pro, and that has worked for a while, but I am practicing to become a professional composer sometime in the future after high school graduation, and I feel it is time that I upgrade to a legit library. I don't really care for Garritan instruments and, I really don't like the sound of some of the baselines Garritan-Finale Sounds.
> 
> I have read up on libraries and know all the big players, cinesamples, spitfire, 8dio, etc. But I have a few limitations, first, I am trying to stay away from Kontakt libraries at the moment. Being a high school student, I do not want to drop both the money for kontakt and an orchestral library at the same time, as it is just too much money. And I don't want to try to work with the free kontakt player when there are other alternatives.
> 
> ...



So what did you buy?


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## Manuel Stumpf (Nov 18, 2019)

river angler said:


> Yes! you have to get Kontakt...





chocobitz825 said:


> To get Inspire means having to buy full Kontakt



Just a slight correction:
The Inspires are Kontakt player libraries. So no. You don't have to buy Kontakt to use them.


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## river angler (Nov 18, 2019)

Ah! yes! I'd forgotten that! ...even more encouraging for the OP then!


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## bill5 (Nov 10, 2021)

JohnG said:


> There is a lot of terrible advice on this thread.
> 
> The biggest investment we make in music is TIME. Wasting time on a feeble, or even "ok" library that is 15 years old is just terrible advice.


Pardon the timing here, was researching orch libraries...

Did you miss the part where he's a HS student and, naturally, money is very tight? I think it's clear he doesn't have $2Kish to whiz away on a PC and/or library. He also doesn't really need to be "competitive" at this stage of his life or have the best, newest, shiniest gee-whiz library. 

Time is a big investment for sure, but for many of us, money is also one hell of a consideration, even a more important one. Keep in mind not everyone on this site is "in the business" or has the luxury of being able to spend truckloads of money on software. We do however have the luxury of doing this at our leisure and not chasing deadlines. And this appears to be the case here. So I think caution and erring on the side of less expensive makes perfect sense.

Second, while I don't suggest putting a ton of time into using a free/inexpensive library either, to use one just to get familiar with using one and composing with one and trying different things can be quite valuable and in fact I think far more sensible than spending a lot on a library out of the gate which in the end the user may realize was a huge mistake because he/she had no experience with such things.

And really I'd say that about ANY kind of plugin. There are soooo many freebies out there, and really good ones too...learn at least some of the general processes, techniques, terms etc first. THEN start investing. IMO

PS that all said I am not saying he should or shouldn't have bought SO. I don't have a dog in that fight. Just some general observations and opinions.


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## bill5 (Nov 10, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> There's a reason your first car should never be a Lamborghini.


And then I read this. Oh sure say what I was basically saying and take far less words to do it. How rude!


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## Geomir (Nov 10, 2021)

Right now in AudioDeluxe the final price (after you add it to your cart) for EWQLSO Gold is $145 / €125, all taxes included, which makes it cheaper i.e. than Amadeus Synphonic Orchestra, GPO 5, or UVI Orchestral Suite, or Miroslav Philharmonik 2 CE, and EWQLSO sounds so much better than all of them.

Plus the buyer gets for free the new OPUS Engine. I think it's a nice first library (and the best choice) for a budget musician with a low-end computer or laptop.


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## JohnG (Nov 10, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Did you miss the part where he's a HS student and, naturally, money is very tight? I think it's clear he doesn't have $2Kish to whiz away on a PC and/or library. He also doesn't really need to be "competitive" at this stage of his life or have the best, newest, shiniest gee-whiz library.


I disagree. And I'm surprised at the condescending tone, Bill.

First off, it doesn't cost $2k for a computer that can run BBCSO. Besides, if the ubiquity of fancy iPhones and other high-dollar accoutrements is anything to go by, even $2k is not out of the reach of plenty of HS students. Second, if he wants to run the free version of BBC, it won't be as demanding. Third, I think it sounds a lot better than most of the free libraries. Much, much better than EWQLSO -- any version. I mined that library for many years and, while good at the time, it pales by today's standards.

The "Lamborghini" analogy is just wrong-headed. Would-be composers should get the best-sounding instruments (live or virtual) that they can possibly afford. Otherwise they waste time tinkering with a frustrating, disappointing library and the knowledge is rarely fully transferrable.

Get the best you can.


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## bill5 (Nov 10, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I disagree. And I'm surprised at the condescending tone, Bill.


Not meant to be condescending or snarky, though I can see how it could be taken that way. Sincere question...it's not unheard of for someone to jump into a thread without reading the OP, or maybe missing/forgetting all of the content. Anyway...

The $2K range was your idea, not mine (not an exact number quote btw), and I agree it's quite excessive, and I feel confident saying well out of reach or at the very least highly inadvisable for most HS students (contrary to popular belief, they aren't all running around with the latest Samsung Galaxy or whatever the latest hot cell phone is). In fact that was partly my point. Cost matters for most quite a lot. 

The free version of BBC I thought sounded very nice but it's extremely limited...you're not going to learn much using it. IMO this is not all about whether X sounds better than Y, but the learning experience in general. I also disagree that SO sounds as poor as you and some others do, but it's subjective and pointless to go back and forth on. 

And while I generally agree that would-be composers should get the best-sounding instruments (live or virtual) that they can possibly afford, in this case, and in the case of anyone totally new to the game, IMO there is value in trying a freebie or cheaper one, even if it's just to get some experience with orchestral composition and playing...and again IMO some of those sound better than some of you give them credit for and frankly many (I'd say most average guys on the street) would have a hard time telling the diff in most cases, so yeah, one of those might be enough. One doesn't have to get the very "best" (pretending that also isn't subjective) library to make great-sounding music.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 10, 2021)

The irony of this pointless argument is that higher priced libs don’t always perform or sound better than the lower priced ones. Some of my all time favorite libs were the cheaper ones, and i have far too many libs that had large price tags that i REGRET buying. Facts. The notion that more expensive = better is a major fallacy.

If you’re in it for the long haul, and have the cash, then by all means, buy whatever you want. It’s your money, and VI users shouldn’t be the ones to tell you how to spend it.

But if you’re new to the game, and tight on funds, DON’T splurge (oh, the hypocrisy). Seriously, there’s too many good libs out there these days that don’t require lots of cash, especially with the ridiculous amount of sales we always see.

And perhaps the biggest gamble is that if you decide that music isn’t for you, you’re stuck with your purchase. There ain’t no re-selling in this game (generally speaking).

Just some food for thought for any newcomers who stumble across this thread.


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## bill5 (Nov 10, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> The notion that more expensive = better is a major fallacy.


So is newer = better. I've seen many posts here for ex. dismissing SO because "it's old!" That in itself is a ridiculous reason to dismiss ANY software. Yeah, generally speaking, things improve over time, but again that is only a rule of thumb and makes zero sense to automatically apply.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 10, 2021)

bill5 said:


> So is newer = better. I've seen many posts here for ex. dismissing SO because "it's old!" That in itself is a ridiculous reason to dismiss ANY software. Yeah, generally speaking, things improve over time, but again that is only a rule of thumb and makes zero sense to automatically apply.


I can’t tell you how many times I find myself reaching for SO, even to this day with all the other fancy toys i have. Some of the samples in that lib are classics, and will always be so.

Unfortunately, the consumer narrative is that newer translates to better. There’s a lot of truth to that, but in the sample world? It’s very hit or miss, not to mention subjective to an individual’s tastes and preferences.

That being said, I don’t think I’d ever dismiss a library because it’s old. A gem is a gem, and if it still works after all these years, then why the hell not?

Not to mention that we’ve kinda come to a point where sample libraries just aren’t evolving very fast in terms of sound quality and playability, so the new string library that gets released in a year probably won’t be noticeably any better than one that was released 5 years ago. There’s more to the equation than just age.

Kinda funny, i was talking to a good friend of mine today who’s also a professional musician. He was going through all of his string libs to find a certain type of sound, and you know what did the trick? A 12 year old string library: Hollywood Strings.


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## Tralen (Nov 10, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> And perhaps the biggest gamble is that if you decide that music isn’t for you, you’re stuck with your purchase. There ain’t no re-selling in this game (generally speaking).


This is a good point to warn the OP (time travelling back to 2019) that one should take a good look at the Refund/Resale list thread.


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## Johnny (Nov 10, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> I can’t tell you how many times I find myself reaching for SO, even to this day with all the other fancy toys i have. Some of the samples in that lib are classics, and will always be so.
> 
> Unfortunately, the consumer narrative is that newer translates to better. There’s a lot of truth to that, but in the sample world? It’s very hit or miss, not to mention subjective to an individual’s tastes and preferences.
> 
> ...


100% I cannot agree more! I'm working on a score right now, and EWSO is the go to for most all of my brass parts! A great recording of a sampled moment in time, is a great sample regardless of what year it was recorded in. You cannot replace a sampled moment in time. I've been looking to update my EWSO Percussion cymbal rolls and gong FX for 15 years now, and I cannot find anything that is even close to comparable... (For my own taste and use) Even the old EWSO Timpani rolls? They just work! Try the Steinway in an orchestral mix? Or the old EWSO Harp? They just work! And that was their intent! So is EWSO showing its age? Yes of course is! All products and technology age over time, but is EWSO still worth buying in 2021?? You would be gravely missing out not to own this library in 2021... Just my thoughts, but in reality, you should really consider having this library just for the accessibility to some of the greatest samples ever recorded if anything else.


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## Vlzmusic (Nov 11, 2021)

Don't forget the solo strings, there are some best sounding exp arcs hidden in there, with 3 mics to toy with, and a woody timbre to die for. The engineer's background and Grammy winning level of expertise is on the show.


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## Vlzmusic (Nov 11, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> But there’s no true legato in EWSO, is there.


Indeed, but if you pit it against the basic Abbey Road set, for example, it's like making a full circle and going back to the initial idea - to highlight the great hall, mostly by short notes, percussion etc. I would say EWQLso weakest point is not the absence of legato, is small choice of dynamics, by today's standards.


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## bill5 (Nov 11, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> But there’s no true legato in EWSO, is there.





bill5 said:


> I am not saying he should or shouldn't have bought SO. I don't have a dog in that fight. Just some general observations and opinions.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Bro, do not, i repeat, DO NOT spend $700 on Platinum Plus from Sweetwater! *As much as i love that Symphonic Orchestra library, it is old, and outdated.* It still has some nice gems in it, but you'd be throwing your money away at that point, especially since EastWest constantly has 50% off sales. In fact, you just missed one, but there will be another sale next month for BF.
> 
> If you are set on SO, then just get the Gold version when it's on sale. But keep in mind there are lots of options out there, so please don't rush into anything!





Mike Fox said:


> I can’t tell you how many times I find myself reaching for SO, even to this day with all the other fancy toys i have. Some of the samples in that lib are classics, and will always be so.
> 
> Unfortunately, the consumer narrative is that newer translates to better. There’s a lot of truth to that, but in the sample world? It’s very hit or miss, not to mention subjective to an individual’s tastes and preferences.
> 
> ...


Which Mike is right - the one from page 1, or the more recent one?


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## Mike Fox (Nov 11, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Which Mike is right - the one from page 1, or the more recent one?


I see what you did there!

Seriously, SO is old and outdated in a lot of ways, but would i ever dimiss it for just that reason? No.

Like I said, it has some gems that are absolute classics and easily hold up to this day.

However, I would dismiss it at the price point that was originally referenced: $700.


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## Henu (Nov 11, 2021)

Inspired by this topic, I dug the cymbals, gongs and timpani into my skeleton template!

That being said, I still have a soft spot for this library. I used it as my only orchestral library during 2008-2016 until I felt I need to step up with my game and check out what are those "some newer sample libraries" my boss constantly kept on raving about.

Almost exactly five years later and way too much money gone, I'm happy that I took the leap, but will always remember EWQLSO as my first love. <3


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## Petrucci (Nov 11, 2021)

Henu said:


> Inspired by this topic, I dug the cymbals, gongs and timpani into my skeleton template!
> 
> That being said, I still have a soft spot for this library. I used it as my only orchestral library during 2008-2016 until I felt I need to step up with my game and check out what are those "some newer sample libraries" my boss constantly kept on raving about.
> 
> Almost exactly five years later and way too much money gone, I'm happy that I took the leap, but will always remember EWQLSO as my first love. <3



Exactly the same thoughts and experience though I switched from EWQLSO to HO in 2020 after using it for like 7-8 years and in the end of 2020 - to VSL BBO and then Synchron, Synchronized etc))


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## RogiervG (Nov 11, 2021)

"Cheap" Alternatives to EW SO:

VSL synchron-ized SE series (vol 1 and 2 e.g. or whichever you want), or BBO volumes (depending on how detailed of writing you want to do: solo and sections vs some solo and ensembles)

HO Opus (somewhat heavy)

BBC SO Core (or Pro depending on needs and budget)

Or you could go in the more expensive segment of libraries, which often sound better or have better programming/features. (VSL synchron(ized) series, OT Berlin series, Cinesample libraries, Cinematic studio series, etc etc etc)

The choice is open... the sales are incoming.. take your pick! 

I wouldn't advice EW SO as primary library (if at all)


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## Mike Fox (Nov 11, 2021)

Just looked at the current price for SO Diamond: $199

Tough to beat for that price.


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## RogiervG (Nov 11, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Just looked at the current price for SO Diamond: $199
> 
> Tough to beat for that price.


SO diamond? there is no diamond in SO (HO did have a diamond, before it went Opus) 
There is Gold and Platinum


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## handz (Nov 11, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> "Cheap" Alternatives to EW SO:
> 
> VSL synchron-ized SE series (vol 1 and 2 e.g. or whichever you want), or BBO volumes (depending on how detailed of writing you want to do: solo and sections vs some solo and ensembles)
> 
> ...


Old VSL dry libs sound like poo, I would never want to be in a position that it would be my only library, especially now. Woodwinds are good, I would not even touch the rest now. 

EW SO is outdated, the sound is quite good but the lack of legatos sucks. OPUS is a steal for the sale price, definitely a way better option than BBCSO core now and it is not so suitable for Hollywood, bombastic music. 

but there are many other full orchestra libs out there....


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## RogiervG (Nov 11, 2021)

handz said:


> Old VSL dry libs sound like poo, I would never want to be in a position that it would be my only library, especially now. Woodwinds are good, I would not even touch the rest now.


I did not mention the VI versions of VSL
I specifically said: synchron-ized, which are out of the box roomy (by MIR tech applied).
they sound different, samples are also remastered/optimized.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 11, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> SO diamond? there is no diamond in SO (HO did have a diamond, before it went Opus)
> There is Gold and Platinum


Ah! That’s what i meant, thanks. 👍


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## handz (Nov 11, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> I did not mention the VI versions of VSL
> I specifically said: synchron-ized, which are out of the box roomy (by MIR tech applied).
> they sound different, samples are also remastered/optimized.


I heard you, these are unlike Synchron series still just old dry samples. Reverb won't make dry samples sound good, nothing great sounding. Only thing I would think about are WW. Rest is thin and lifeless.


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## RogiervG (Nov 11, 2021)

handz said:


> I heard you, these are unlike Synchron series still just old dry samples. Reverb won't make dry samples sound good, nothing great sounding. Only thing I would think about are WW. Rest is thin and lifeless.


Yes, i agree they are not the same as being actually recording in a hall (like synchron stage), and indeed convolution tricks won't make them sound the same. Still Synchron-ized versions have more room/reverb by default, than the VI's have, that's why i mentioned these as an alternative in a lower budget range. VSL has a particular sound character (even Synchron series), you like it or you don't (they record in the neutral/classical play style, not cinematic/romantic, this can be a good or not so good thing.)


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## dcoscina (Nov 11, 2021)

EWQLSO was great in its day but the Qlegato was a pale comparison to interval sampling that eventually took over as the main way of achieving fluid phrasing. I'd go for OPUS if you like EW or Spitfire BBCSO or VSL Special Edition as others have said.


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## Nimrod7 (Nov 11, 2021)

meanwhile the OP:


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 11, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> meanwhile the OP:



And the thread is two years old Lol!


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## Geomir (Nov 11, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> And the thread is two years old Lol!


A two years old thread for a 15 years old library. What's more interesting than this?


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## ryans (Nov 11, 2021)

So many great and still usable patches in EWQLSO. The brass (especially trumpets) and percussion haven't aged a day. Also some of the expressive strings patches are so useful.


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## RogiervG (Nov 12, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> And the thread is two years old Lol!


Still there are beginners in the field, and they might also stumble onto EWQL SO as an option.. this discussion might help them


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 12, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Still there are beginners in the field, and they might also stumble onto EWQL SO as an option.. this discussion might help them


Of course! My point is that hopefully the OP has decided after 2 years.


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## RogiervG (Nov 12, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Of course! My point is that hopefully the OP has decided after 2 years.


Ah!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 12, 2021)

Geomir said:


> A two years old thread for a 15 years old library. What's more interesting than this?


Just goes to show it doesn't matter if you have the "latest and greatest". I find that EW was way ahead of their time when all those classic libraries were released. I'm still using Stormdrum 1&2, Goliath (the morphs are priceless), RA, and Percussive Adventures. I've actually been using Symphonic Orchestra since it was previously called Gold XP!


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## mekosmowski (Nov 21, 2021)

This thread is helping me realize VSL would be a viable choice for me. (Right now I'm writing for small chamber sized ensembles and haven't tackled a full orchestra yet.) Thanks for reanimating the thread.


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## sayanchik (Dec 27, 2021)

Johnny said:


> Try the Steinway in an orchestral mix?


Does EWSO include piano? I have EWSO Gold and it seems there's no piano in it.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 27, 2021)

sayanchik said:


> Does EWSO include piano? I have EWSO Gold and it seems there's no piano in it.


It's there, it's the Steinway B. Under Percussion > Wood


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## Manuel Stumpf (Dec 27, 2021)

sayanchik said:


> Does EWSO include piano? I have EWSO Gold and it seems there's no piano in it.


It is in Percussion->Wood section.


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## Johnny (Dec 29, 2021)

sayanchik said:


> Does EWSO include piano? I have EWSO Gold and it seems there's no piano in it.


It does, should contain a piano in your EWSO percussion>>woods (percussion) folder. The Steinway B


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## JohnS (Apr 30, 2022)

Hi all,
Let me introduce myself, as this is my first post here: newbie playing as hobby with free DAW (Cakewalk) and instruments (soundfonts under sforzando, freebies from OT, SA, Heavyocity). My setup includes laptop PC (Intel i7, 16G DRAM, 1T SSD), Yamaha PSR-E373 as MIDI keyboard (I won't call it controller) and Audio interface. Considering adding small MIDI controller with Mod Wheel and some sliders/dials.
Want to dip my toe into learning orchestration beyond BBCSO Discover. Looking for a complete orchestral library (including solo instruments), which will not kill my system and allow for multiple mic positions.

As for my musical directions: As much as I'd like to use it for simple orchestral arrangements, I would also like to use it in more intimate chamber/solo use cases. Not necessarily into Hollywood/Epic style.

Wondering if EastWest Symphonic Orchestra Platinum (199$ at sales price now) would be good fit for my needs and system. I know "it's old" etc. but was hoping that the new OPUS engine might have cured some of its weaknesses. Please advise.


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## Robert_G (Apr 30, 2022)

JohnS said:


> Hi all,
> Let me introduce myself, as this is my first post here: newbie playing as hobby with free DAW (Cakewalk) and instruments (soundfonts under sforzando, freebies from OT, SA, Heavyocity). My setup includes laptop PC (Intel i7, 16G DRAM, 1T SSD), Yamaha PSR-E373 as MIDI keyboard (I won't call it controller) and Audio interface. Considering adding small MIDI controller with Mod Wheel and some sliders/dials.
> Want to dip my toe into learning orchestration beyond BBCSO Discover. Looking for a complete orchestral library (including solo instruments), which will not kill my system and allow for multiple mic positions.
> 
> ...


Orchestration with multiple mic options is not realistic with 16GB RAM. You'll be using mostly mixed mics. Welcome to VI


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## JohnS (Apr 30, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> Orchestration with multiple mic options is not realistic with 16GB RAM. You'll be using mostly mixed mics. Welcome to VI


Thank you Robert for a prompt reply.

I was hoping it would suffice bearing in mind that:
a) I'm not going to use lots of tracks for start.
b) The size of the library on disk, much smaller than HO (which has the same minimum requirement of 16GB DRAM) should mean that the samples are much lighter also for DRAM. EW SO Platinum has only 3 mic positions, not as many as EW HO Opus.
c) OPUS engine should allow to stream samples direct from SSD and purge unused notes, right?

I also thought that it's better to have 3 mic positions if only for chamber arrangements, even if I couldn't use all 3 in more dense orchestral pieces.


----------



## Robert_G (Apr 30, 2022)

JohnS said:


> Thank you Robert for a prompt reply.
> 
> I was hoping it would suffice bearing in mind that:
> a) I'm not going to use lots of tracks for start.
> ...


One of the issues with HO and even OPus is the lack of key switches. You have to use multiple instances of PLAY (therefore loading lots of samples) to get the articulations you need....even the simplest arrangement with multiple mics is going to tax your RAM no matter how you do it.



JohnS said:


> I also thought that it's better to have 3 mic positions if only for chamber arrangements, even if I couldn't use all 3 in more dense orchestral pieces.


Multiple mic positions usually sound better in any situation....not just chamber.

I have 128GB RAM. It's very comfortable, but I'm constantly in the 40-80GB range. 16GB of RAM is archaic for DAW composing nowadays. Just being honest with you.


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## Jdiggity1 (Apr 30, 2022)

JohnS said:


> Hi all,
> Let me introduce myself, as this is my first post here: newbie playing as hobby with free DAW (Cakewalk) and instruments (soundfonts under sforzando, freebies from OT, SA, Heavyocity). My setup includes laptop PC (Intel i7, 16G DRAM, 1T SSD), Yamaha PSR-E373 as MIDI keyboard (I won't call it controller) and Audio interface. Considering adding small MIDI controller with Mod Wheel and some sliders/dials.
> Want to dip my toe into learning orchestration beyond BBCSO Discover. Looking for a complete orchestral library (including solo instruments), which will not kill my system and allow for multiple mic positions.
> 
> ...


Even when in the older PLAY engine, you can get a lot out of EWQLSO with only a small amount of ram. I think it's a good choice for your needs.
You might not be able to have all mic positions loaded at once, but you'll at least have options to pick and choose which ones you need for the project at hand.


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## JohnS (Apr 30, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> One of the issues with HO and even OPus is the lack of key switches. You have to use multiple instances of PLAY (therefore loading lots of samples) to get the articulations you need....even the simplest arrangement with multiple mics is going to tax your RAM no matter how you do it.
> 
> 
> Multiple mic positions usually sound better in any situation....not just chamber.
> ...


Although that wouldn't save on RAM, I thought I could use ZONES tab in OPUS for layering and switch between layers using keyswitches, modwheel or velocity, even using originally non-KS-ed instruments from EWQLSO as layers.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 30, 2022)

EW Symphonic Orchestra will run fine on your system. When it first came out, 16GB RAM was pretty much as high as you could go. Even with multiple mic’s it’s not very taxing (I used the regular version with only 4GB). I even ran Hollywood Strings/Brass on a 2013 MacBook for years. The Gold version mind you, but it’s still possible if you’re okay with using the mid mic’s.

I’d just sign up for one month to CC and do a test run.


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## JohnS (Apr 30, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Even when in the older PLAY engine, you can get a lot out of EWQLSO with only a small amount of ram. I think it's a good choice for your needs.
> You might not be able to have all mic positions loaded at once, but you'll at least have options to pick and choose which ones you need for the project at hand.


Thanks for the input Jdiggity1.
Yes, options. That's the point. I didn't find anything else in similar budget with that range of solo instruments, not to mention multi-miked. Admittedly, not sure though, how playable those instruments are.
I hoped that someone still using SO could share some insight how it behaves under OPUS engine. I thought it might help conserve some RAM (Purge, Quick Load features) and build layered instruments (KS or velocity based) to make more playable patches.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 30, 2022)

Keep in mind……SO has no legato instruments and they are quite wet.


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## JohnS (Apr 30, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Keep in mind……SO has no legato instruments and they are quite wet.


1. Would you trade legato for multiple mics? Is there a symphonic library with true legatos and separate instrument sections (not - Full/Low/Hidh Brass/Strings/Woods) that would fit better to my system and needs?
2. Are they so wet, that cannot be used in chamber pieces? I like the sound in official examples also heard in *MicroQuartet* by Antongiulio Frulio.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 30, 2022)

JohnS said:


> 1. Would you trade legato for multiple mics? Is there a symphonic library with true legatos and separate instrument sections (not - Full/Low/Hidh Brass/Strings/Woods) that would fit better to my system and needs?
> 2. Are they so wet, that cannot be used in chamber pieces? I like the sound in official examples also heard in *MicroQuartet* by Antongiulio Frulio.


Chamber stuff won’t sound right with SO, it just doesn’t have the proper articulations for that (unless you’re not concerned about realism, etc). In the days when SO was my primary library (Gold XP actually, before Play), I didn’t know any different because legato was not even a thing yet in the VI world. Hollywood Strings changed everything. I still use SO for things like FX, percussion, harp, etc, but would never again use it as a main string library. 

Have you checked out the Orchestra Tools Arks that are currently on sale? I’d also look at Nucleus, VSL or even BBCSO Pro (which would run fine if you trash unused patches from each instance). With BBCSO you could probably do chamber stuff with the leaders.


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## JohnS (Apr 30, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Chamber stuff won’t sound right with SO, it just doesn’t have the proper articulations for that (unless you’re not concerned about realism, etc). In the days when SO was my primary library (Gold XP actually, before Play), I didn’t know any different because legato was not even a thing yet in the VI world. Hollywood Strings changed everything. I still use SO for things like FX, percussion, harp, etc, but would never again use it as a main string library.


oopsss, at first sight it doesn't look like so, looking at the manual and instrument/articulation list :-(


Jeremy Spencer said:


> Have you checked out the Orchestra Tools Arks that are currently on sale?


I haven't found much solos in the Ark series. Which modules you mean?
Did you mean Berlin Inspire 1/2 instead? Yes I also consider those, and Berlin Orchestra (1 mic only) if other options fail.


Jeremy Spencer said:


> I’d also look at Nucleus, VSL or even BBCSO Pro (which would run fine if you trash unused patches from each instance). With BBCSO you could probably do chamber stuff with the leaders.


The problem with BBCSO Pro is the size of the library, which would require external SSD, that would lead to external USB hub, cables and possibly other problems (I've already had problem with ASIO through hub).
If I were to use external SSD I might as well consider EW HO Opus (399$ at current discount) which includes Hollywood Solos and Orchestrator. Then I could have 1-mic version (Gold) on internal SSD and full Diamond on external one.


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## Geomir (Apr 30, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> The Gold version mind you, but it’s still possible if you’re okay with using the mid mic’s.


EastWest surprise! There is NO Gold Version anymore! In one evening, it was disappeared from the face of the Earth, exactly as it happened with EWHO Opus Gold Edition several months ago!

I tried to load it at my Play 6, and I got the message that the Platinum Edition is missing. I had just lost access to my EWQLSO Gold Edition. I thought "wtf has happened? I own the Gold, not the Platinum. Why Play 6 is searching for the wrong library"?

It didn't take me too long to realize what has happened: During this last (still running) EW Easter Sale, there is no Gold Edition to be found anymore.

Classic EastWest. No I am not sending anything to their support. I am too tired for that! I will just spend my money elsewhere.

P.S. Yes it still loads in my Opus Plugin, but who knows for how long? Impossible to trust EW after that. And as you mentioned in many of your posts, many EW libraries run better on Play 6 than Opus (not faster, with less automation options, but at least without bugs, crashes and freezes, or missing samples, etc).


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 30, 2022)

Geomir said:


> EastWest surprise! There is NO Gold Version anymore! In one evening, it was disappeared from the face of the Earth, exactly as it happened with EWHO Opus Gold Edition several months ago!
> 
> I tried to load it at my Play 6, and I got the message that the Platinum Edition is missing. I had just lost access to my EWQLSO Gold Edition. I thought "wtf has happened? I own the Gold, not the Platinum. Why Play 6 is searching for the wrong library"?
> 
> ...


What? I can’t even load HS Gold in Play again? That is stupid.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 30, 2022)

JohnS said:


> oopsss, at first sight it doesn't look like so, looking at the manual and instrument/articulation list :-(
> 
> I haven't found much solos in the Ark series. Which modules you mean?
> Did you mean Berlin Inspire 1/2 instead? Yes I also consider those, and Berlin Orchestra (1 mic only) if other options fail.
> ...


No matter which library you choose, always best practice to keep in an external drive anyways.


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## Geomir (Apr 30, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> What? I can’t even load HS Gold in Play again? That is stupid.


There is no Gold Edition anymore. That's why you can't load it. You can thank EastWest for that.


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## Geomir (Apr 30, 2022)

JohnS said:


> Hi all,
> Let me introduce myself, as this is my first post here: newbie playing as hobby with free DAW (Cakewalk) and instruments (soundfonts under sforzando, freebies from OT, SA, Heavyocity). My setup includes laptop PC (Intel i7, 16G DRAM, 1T SSD), Yamaha PSR-E373 as MIDI keyboard (I won't call it controller) and Audio interface. Considering adding small MIDI controller with Mod Wheel and some sliders/dials.
> Want to dip my toe into learning orchestration beyond BBCSO Discover. Looking for a complete orchestral library (including solo instruments), which will not kill my system and allow for multiple mic positions.
> 
> ...


Hello and welcome to the Forum! 

After reading your "needs" through your posts, I think that you should definitely check the following two libraries, their combination gives you almost everything you are going to need:
- VSL Synchron-ized Special Edition Volume 1
- VSL Synchron-ized Special Edition Volume 2

You get ALL of the solo strings and strings separate sections (including chamber sections), ALL the orchestral solo woodwinds and separate sections, ALL of the solo brass instruments and separate sections (incudling muted brass), and ALL the possible melodic percussion / untuned percussion instruments. Plus a great grand piano, a majestic pipe organ, and many more instruments.

All of the strings / brass / woodwinds solo instruments and sections include true legato samples (even portamento for the all the strings), and all the basic long and short articulations. There are from very dry up to very wet presets, and the total size of the 2 libraries is less than 150GB.

The Synchron Player that is included for free with VSL libraries is one of the best in the market (if not THE best). And the 2 libraries will run fine on your system, since they are not very heavy on system resources.

For less than $450 (until the 2nd of May!) it's not easy to find something like that (I mean that suits you so much). Take your time and check the official walkthroughs, the demos and the reviews (there are several on YT), and judge for yourself.


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## pinki (Apr 30, 2022)

I agree with Geomir on this ….VSL 1 and 2 all the way.


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## RogiervG (May 1, 2022)

Geomir said:


> It didn't take me too long to realize what has happened: During this last (still running) EW Easter Sale, there is no Gold Edition to be found anymore.
> 
> Classic EastWest. No I am not sending anything to their support. I am too tired for that! I will just spend my money elsewhere.
> 
> P.S. Yes it still loads in my Opus Plugin, but who knows for how long? Impossible to trust EW after that. And as you mentioned in many of your posts, many EW libraries run better on Play 6 than Opus (not faster, with less automation options, but at least without bugs, crashes and freezes, or missing samples, etc).



With due respect...

i think you use strongs words, and also don't give EW an oppertunity to resolve the manner in a reasonable way. 
First of all, you don't inform them, you just choose go along with the result. However you start to claim it's on purposely done by EW, taking away your ability to use the mentioned product. You have no idea about that.. why? read on:

Look, You have the right to complain IF and ONLY IF, you have given EW the mentioned reasonable way to resolve it.
Since you don't ask for support (tired and all) for clarification and a resolution to the issue (which ever that might be: heck maybe even a free upgrade to premium? but most likely there is an unforseen issue with the Ilok part, and they will issue you a new license to activate on your account).

I mean, i find it very weak, to spray claims and complaints on a company, while you did not do YOUR part in the first place: ask for help/support via a ticket or two and see how that goes (within reasonable constraints) first,if that doesn't happen or work out in a reasonable way.. sure.. you have the right to complain.. 

The way you've posted it, it can give the wrong message to potential customers and alike, which in the end might even be a false conclusion: it's very likely they will provide you reasonable proper support on the matter, but YOU have, as mentioned before, do the initiative first by asking them. But if you are (for a simple mail) too tired for those things.. then stop complaining in the first place.

And let me be clear, just in case.. i am not angry at you, i respect you.. but this specific post, just rubs my hairs the wrong way.. so i respond to it.


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## Geomir (May 1, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> With due respect...
> 
> i think you use strongs words, and also don't give EW an oppertunity to resolve the manner in a reasonable way.
> First of all, you don't inform them, you just choose go along with the result. However you start to claim it's on purposely done by EW, taking away your ability to use the mentioned product. You have no idea about that.. why? read on:
> ...


It seems that everyone "can be grumpy" sometimes!  

About EW, it has happened again, that's why I know it is pointless to try anything. As they cancelled without any warning the Gold Edition of EWHO Opus, the same way they cancelled the Gold Edition of EWQLSO.

The moment all other companies produce libraries with one mic mix and light footprints, EW is cancelling this type of libraries. They have the right to do it, I don't like it, but I accept it and go on (i.e. to other companies that - for me - respect so much more their exisitng customers).

No I am not going to ask them any help, or to ask them to enable the Gold Edition for me only, a product that stopped exisiting. It still works in Opus, but I wonder what if you don't have Opus? Still, I am really lazy to ask them all these things.

P.S. I was already very irritated that the upgrade price of EWHO Opus is the same with the "purchase new" price, and then this happened. Sorry but my opinion about EW is very low anyomre.

P.S.2. Hey I don't try to scare other people away! If you see another recent post of mine, I mention that there can be no better purchase than EWHO Opus if you don't have it, nothing can compare to it in terms of value-for-money. But if you are an existing customer of EW, then things are a little different...


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## Jdiggity1 (May 1, 2022)

Geomir said:


> It seems that everyone "can be grumpy" sometimes!
> 
> About EW, it has happened again, that's why I know it is pointless to try anything. As they cancelled without any warning the Gold Edition of EWHO Opus, the same way they cancelled the Gold Edition of EWQLSO.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what went wrong with your system, but I still use my Gold products in PLAY without issue. I have all of my Hollywood Orch Gold libraries still available to download and install from the EW installation manager, too.
It might be possible that installing opus messed up some of your installations, and your gold installation was overwritten. I've had similar issues, but they've been fixable with a bit of troubleshooting.


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## RogiervG (May 1, 2022)

Geomir said:


> It seems that everyone "can be grumpy" sometimes!



 Yes, anyone will be grumpy at times.. that's fine, no worries  



Geomir said:


> About EW, it has happened again, that's why I know it is pointless to try anything. As they cancelled without any warning the Gold Edition of EWHO Opus, the same way they cancelled the Gold Edition of EWQLSO.
> 
> The moment all other companies produce libraries with one mic mix and light footprints, EW is cancelling this type of libraries. They have the right to do it, I don't like it, but I accept it and go on (i.e. to other companies that - for me - respect so much more their exisitng customers).



I too find it odd, they suddenly pull the plug on a lighter version of a product without upfront notice (and explaining).
Maybe there is a good reason, that we don't know yet.. or partitially know (e.g. the cloud types have changed too.. there is not a "+" version out of sudden, containing the diamond or premium versions of all products.)



Geomir said:


> No I am not going to ask them any help, or to ask them to enable the Gold Edition for me only, a product that stopped exisiting. It still works in Opus, but I wonder what if you don't have Opus? Still, I am really lazy to ask them all these things.



I think you have a shot/chance here, that you haven't tried yet (or i don't read you have in the past). 
See, there is a difference for not being able to purchase a license for a certain product anymore (new), because they withdrawn it from the store. 
OR when those who already own the license and somehow cannot use it anymore (without notice upfront). You seem to be in the latter situation, which to me sounds like there is (as i've mentioned) a problem with the ilok license (withdrawn too, not on purpose). They are likely to fix it for you. Just as the other issue recently where subscriptions went wrong (multiple reports on this forum about that).. They also fix that, if you notify them about it.
Their support is mostly very good.




Geomir said:


> P.S. I was already very irritated that the upgrade price of EWHO Opus is the same with the "purchase new" price, and then this happened. Sorry but my opinion about EW is very low anyomre.



Yes the upgrade pricing of products are always an eyebrow raising thing with EW. Like they don't do loyalty to their customers. Only like new customers with the discounts.



Geomir said:


> P.S.2. Hey I don't try to scare other people away! If you see another recent post of mine, I mention that there can be no better purchase than EWHO Opus if you don't have it, nothing can compare to it in terms of value-for-money. But if you are an existing customer of EW, then things are a little different...



I know, and that's why i specifically mentioned your post (not the others) that rubs my hairs the wrong way.. also because your tone was completely different than before..


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## Geomir (May 1, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> I'm not sure what went wrong with your system, but I still use my Gold products in PLAY without issue. I have all of my Hollywood Orch Gold libraries still available to download and install from the EW installation manager, too.
> It might be possible that installing opus messed up some of your installations, and your gold installation was overwritten. I've had similar issues, but they've been fixable with a bit of troubleshooting.


This is true for me also. My "legacy" EWHO Gold is listed under the "Older Libraries" tab, since they work only with Play. It works fine.

Also my EW Gypsy, Ra, Silk, Stormdrum 3 and VotE work perfectly fine. That's where I started researching "outside" of my PC. That's where I thought "so something changed only for my EWQLSO Gold Edition". I was proud that it took me less than 5 mins to find it out. Some "EW cancels plugins without any heads-up" alarm came to my mind, and after cheking their site and all other popular resellers, voila, no Gold edition anymore!

I didn't do any changes to my PC last days. All of my EW programs and Plugins are up to date. I also uninstalled and intalled Play 6 again, and I made sure that EW Isntallation Center is fully updated to the last version, the same for Play, Opus and EW Support.

I also removed (not deleted) my EWQLSO library and added it again, several times, I restarted my PC, I confirmed the path many times, without any result. Play 6 is searching for the Platinum Version!

OK, for the greater good of this Forum, and if I am not lazy, I will completely delete EWQLSO Gold from my PC, and then download it and add it again, to see what happens. It's only 33GB anyway (not a huge number for 2022)!


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## Geomir (May 1, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> Yes, anyone will be grumpy at times.. that's fine, no worries
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is to be praised for sure! Their support is excellent, very helpful, and they do their best to help you as fast as possible! 

If after I delete it and redonwload it anew from EW Installation Center, I still get no result, I might open a support ticket. Although after they are abandoning their Gold Editions one by one, I am really losing my interest on them.


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## Kent (May 1, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> Orchestration with multiple mic options is not realistic with 16GB RAM. You'll be using mostly mixed mics. Welcome to VI


but for QLSO? I think that's totally feasible.


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## Kent (May 1, 2022)

@JohnS

FWIW, QLSO was my very first (and for a long time, only [besides the stock Logic sounds]) virtual instrument.

It certainly does have its limitations—it is like 18 years old!—but it's still an incredibly beautiful and capable library.

It was one of the 'only games in town' for quite a while, so you'll hear it all over the place, especially in media from a certain era. When used poorly, it has a very distinctive sound (think: the 2000s version of 'this sounds like MIDI').

When used well, however...stuff like this is possible:











Symphonic Explorations (EWQLSO Demo) | Jayden Lawrence | Composer for Film & Video Games


“Symphonic Explorations” from Synthestration.com by Jayden Lawrence. Released: 2016. Track 1. Genre: Orchestral.




jaydenlawrence.com







Point being: if you can figure out how to make this work for you, then it's a good choice. Especially given your system constraints, this is now considered very lightweight and punches far above its weightclass in that regard.

But... it's still pretty old-school, and there have been at least a couple mid-sized paradigm shifts in general market expectations for virtual instruments since then (true legato being one of them).

I'd advise subscribing to Composer Cloud first (I can't tell if you have yet or not—apologies), to see if you even jive with EastWest's way of doing things, as well as this library in particular. Likewise, check out Musio.

IMO no need to spend money to own a license until you know why you're doing so. Different libraries provide different pros and cons, and dipping your toes in a number of pools is a lot easier in the long run, at the beginning, than cannonballing into a system you may not ultimately prefer.


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## Duncan Krummel (May 1, 2022)

Kent said:


> but for QLSO? I think that's totally feasible.


Oh heck yeah it is! I used EWQLSO for years on a beat up Core 2 Duo with 8Gb of RAM. Wasn’t an issue, other than occasionally needing to freeze tracks when the track count got too large. If you can put up with a bit of an antiquated scripting system, it’s probably the very best lightweight, full package still available.


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## aeliron (May 1, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> One of the issues with HO and even OPus is the lack of key switches. You have to use multiple instances of PLAY (therefore loading lots of samples) to get the articulations you need....even the simplest arrangement with multiple mics is going to tax your RAM no matter how you do it.
> 
> 
> Multiple mic positions usually sound better in any situation....not just chamber.
> ...





JohnS said:


> Thank you Robert for a prompt reply.
> 
> I was hoping it would suffice bearing in mind that:
> a) I'm not going to use lots of tracks for start.
> ...


Opus does have key switches but not all are active, you have to click to enable them. Or use ArtConductor. 

Plus, Opus has three presets, for intimate to epic sound. 

And global purge. 

So it depends on your use.


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## Mike Fox (May 1, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Oh heck yeah it is! I used EWQLSO for years on a beat up Core 2 Duo with 8Gb of RAM. Wasn’t an issue, other than occasionally needing to freeze tracks when the track count got too large. If you can put up with a bit of an antiquated scripting system, it’s probably the very best lightweight, full package still available.


I did it with 2gb. It wasn’t easy, but i made it work.

16gb should be just fine.


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## chopin4525 (May 1, 2022)

Kent said:


> @JohnS
> 
> FWIW, QLSO was my very first (and for a long time, only [besides the stock Logic sounds]) virtual instrument.
> 
> ...



Every note of that harp seems to be coated in honey.


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## Kent (May 1, 2022)

chopin4525 said:


> Every note of that harp seems to be coated in honey.


The marimba too!


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## Geomir (May 1, 2022)

Kent said:


> The marimba too!


My favorite EWQLSO instrument!


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## Geomir (May 1, 2022)

@RogiervG and @Jdiggity1 

I solved it myself! I had to exhaust all the possibilities before I become a burden to EW technical support personnel.

It was the last think I had to try. I was thinking "maybe I am losing my memory, maybe I own the Platinum edition and I don't remember"? "Why EW is pushing me to use the Platinum version"?

Well, I realized that I am a CC subscriber (for this month only, so I can try myself EWHO Opus Edition), so EW somehow refused to accept that I wanted to use something worse than the one that I own (at least for now)! So the moment I deactivated from my PC the EW CC subscription, EWQLSO Gold runs properly again.


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## Robert_G (May 1, 2022)

Kent said:


> but for QLSO? I think that's totally feasible.


True, but who uses it as their main workhorse in this day and age?


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## NYC Composer (May 2, 2022)

chopin4525 said:


> Every note of that harp seems to be coated in honey.


I still use the harp and the perc from EWQLSO.


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## Kent (May 2, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> True, but who uses it as their main workhorse in this day and age?


how many workhorses do hobbyist newbies with limited RAM expect to use?


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## JohnS (May 2, 2022)

Geomir,
Sorry for late response, I'm busy installing all VSL freebies and exploring the options available in Synchron Player. Indeed the VSL Synchron-ized Special Edition series seems to tick most the right boxes for me (apart form ugly interface colors )!

Dry samples, lots of instruments, well organized KS-ed patches, lots of customization possibilities, clear upgrade path. I like the acoustics of the venue. And hearing all the legatos and portamentos in all the walkthroughs made me realize what Jeremy ( too subtly) pointed at by saying "SO has no legato instruments"  (I told you I'm newbie). @Jeremy: Yes, I noticed that you vere the first to suggest looking at VSL, but their web page is so offputting for me and the names of the series is so "sterile" not musical, that up to now I stayed away from it, thinking they only sell high-end (read: $$$expensive$$$) stuff. 

I understand that the samples themselves in this library are dry but only single-miked (close-miked? Decca Tree-miked?) and to get the instruments properly panned and "3D-ed", they are treated by convolution reverb of the venue. I assume each instrument has corresponding version of that venue impulse response measured for the place of the instrument/section, right? At least that's what I observed applying "Boesendorfer distant" response of Synchron Stage Vienna available in free Soft Imperial piano (which pans the piano far left on the stage and ads venue response). And that is great for pure orchestral arrangements and greatly helps to keep the low footprint, both on disk and in RAM.

Now the question is:
How are the mix presets made in this library? Do I get alternative venues' responses or only one (Synchron Stage Vienna)? Or, in order to achieve more chamber instrument placement (like for string quartet), I shall turn off the Synchron Stage Vienna impulse response (do I get centered samples?) and then arbitrally pan the instruments and treat them either with generic internal or some external reverb/delay? In the other freebie (BBO) the mix is using multiple mics and built-in generic reverb, not the IRs.

Thank you Geomir and everyone that responded! 
I do appreciate your help.

John


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## JohnS (May 2, 2022)

Kent said:


> @JohnS
> 
> FWIW, QLSO was my very first (and for a long time, only [besides the stock Logic sounds]) virtual instrument.
> 
> ...



Totally agree, Kent.
Thank you for sharing the great examples of that is possible with old library.
I understand that buying any first commercial orchestral library might be one-off purchase (followed by long practice or quick dissapointment) but it can also be start of the journey. I'm also well aware of GAS threat, so far limitting myself to public domain instuments and freebies available to learn different library suppliers' ecosystems. I also understand, that library alone makes no music, it's the user's hard work and determination. I try to avoid being cheap and then endure myself using wrong tools from the start. Point being, I'm not limitted by 200$ budget for the library, just by HW limits of my system I do not intend to replace in the near future.

Wishing all the best,
John


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## Robert_G (May 2, 2022)

Kent said:


> how many workhorses do hobbyist newbies with limited RAM expect to use?


True enough


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## Geomir (May 2, 2022)

JohnS said:


> Geomir,
> Sorry for late response, I'm busy installing all VSL freebies and exploring the options available in Synchron Player. Indeed the VSL Synchron-ized Special Edition series seems to tick most the right boxes for me (apart form ugly interface colors )!
> 
> Dry samples, lots of instruments, well organized KS-ed patches, lots of customization possibilities, clear upgrade path. I like the acoustics of the venue. And hearing all the legatos and portamentos in all the walkthroughs made me realize what Jeremy ( too subtly) pointed at by saying "SO has no legato instruments"  (I told you I'm newbie). @Jeremy: Yes, I noticed that you vere the first to suggest looking at VSL, but their web page is so offputting for me and the names of the series is so "sterile" not musical, that up to now I stayed away from it, thinking they only sell high-end (read: $$$expensive$$$) stuff.
> ...


Hi there,

All the instruments of VSL Synchron-ized Special Editions Vol. 1 and 2 have been recorded with close stereo mics in Vienna Silent Stage, so they have a natural dry sound. VSL then placed them at their "correct" orchestral potisions into their Syncrhon Stage Vienna, after balancing all the volume levels between them.

But there is more than that. Each instrument has a custom IR (positioning) inside the virtual stage, and things like position, rotation, width of the instrument/section, and even sound frequency characteristics of the instrument/section were taken into account, since many instruments don't sound the same when listened from the front, right side, left side and behind of it.

So it's not like they took the original dry recordings and just applied some panning and some reverb to them. There is an expert work behind this, made by VSL's Synchron Stage sound engineers.

The Steinway Grand piano (in Vol.1) and the Synchron Timpani, Synchon Drums, and Synchron Cymbals & Gongs (in Vol.2) are the grand exceptions from the above rule, since they were recorded in Synchron Stage Vienna and already contain the natural ambience of the stage.

The basic mix presets are Close, Classic and Distant, but you can edit anything you like and experiment with in-between options.

You don't get any alternative venues of course, Syncron Player (and all the Synchron and Syncrhon-ized products) are about Synchron Stage Vienna. But if you disable both the convolution and room reverb included in the Sychron Player, then you can use your dry intruments/sections with any other reverb you like in any different mix.

Hope I helped a little bit! 

P.S. Even the Starter Editions of VSL, that are not super-expensive, have a pro quality about them. The reason is simple: the samples are taken from their pro libraries, but they include less velocity layers, vibrato layers, articulations, etc.

P.S. @Ben from VSL can confirm all of the above, or correct me if I am wrong with something that I wrote.


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## Ben (May 2, 2022)

Sounds good @Geomir. One small thing:



Geomir said:


> All the instruments of VSL Synchron-ized Special Editions Vol. 1 and 2 have been recorded with close stereo mics in Vienna Silent Stage


Yes, recorded in Silent Stage, but as far as I know the mik'ing was decided depending on the instrument, so it's not captured super close, but with enough space so the instrument can breathe and you get some early reflections as well.
The Silent Stage was purpose-built to capture all these samples.


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## Geomir (May 2, 2022)

Ben said:


> Sounds good @Geomir. One small thing:
> 
> 
> Yes, recorded in Silent Stage, but as far as I know the mik'ing was decided depending on the instrument, so it's not captured super close, but with enough space so the instrument can breathe and you get some early reflections as well.
> The Silent Stage was purpose-built to capture all these samples.


But they are always stereo, right? No mono recordings there?


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## Geomir (May 2, 2022)

Ben said:


> Sounds good @Geomir.


Where is my coupon?


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## Ben (May 2, 2022)

Geomir said:


> But they are always stereo, right? No mono recordings there?


Yes, with the exeption of the Dimension instruments (Vol 5+6) all samples are available in stereo.


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## Geomir (May 2, 2022)

Ben said:


> Yes, with the exeption of the Dimension instruments (Vol 5+6) all samples are available in stereo.


Great! Good to know this from an official source.


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## Zanshin (May 2, 2022)

I agree with @Geomir the Synchronized SEs are a great bang for buck, especially on sale like they are right now (today is the last day?).


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## Geomir (May 2, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I agree with @Geomir the Synchronized SEs are amazing bang for buck, especially on sale like they are right now (today is the last day?).


Yes they are! And yes it's the last day!


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## JohnS (May 2, 2022)

Geomir said:


> All the instruments of VSL Synchron-ized Special Editions Vol. 1 and 2 have been recorded with close stereo mics in Vienna Silent Stage, so they have a natural dry sound. VSL then placed them at their "correct" orchestral potisions into their Syncrhon Stage Vienna, after balancing all the volume levels between them.
> 
> But there is more than that. Each instrument has a custom IR (positioning) inside the virtual stage, and things like position, rotation, width of the instrument/section, and even sound frequency characteristics of the instrument/section were taken into account, since many instruments don't sound the same when listened from the front, right side, left side and behind of it.


So in order to move Cello1, Violin1 or Harp to the middle of the stage (to play the solo part from there) and still keep the cohesive venue response, I would have to use IR from Viola1? Or are there any additional IRs for other spots on the stage? How many IRs are there available? Can I use them interchangeably between the instruments/sections to change their virtual positions? Just paning the instrument would unnecessarily also pan the room response.

Asking you here to get you the coupon


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## Geomir (May 2, 2022)

JohnS said:


> So in order to move Cello1, Violin1 or Harp to the middle of the stage (to play the solo part from there) and still keep the cohesive venue response, I would have to use IR from Viola1? Or are there any additional IRs for other spots on the stage? How many IRs are there available? Can I use them interchangeably between the instruments/sections to change their virtual positions? Just paning the instrument would unnecessarily also pan the room response.
> 
> Asking you here to get you the coupon


I don't know if you can do it like that. I know that if you disable the IR reverb and select a preset that brings you the original dry recording, then the instrument is centered, dry, without any external processing. But I really don't know if you can take the IR from an instrument and put it to another.

I just lost my coupon...


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