# Apple employees are dumb



## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 17, 2013)

With some of the computer issues I had been having in the last week, I was fearing HDD failure. So I took my iMac into the Apple store for a free hardware diagnostic. After a couple of days the Apple employee called me to tell me that he recommended putting just my bootup OS on my SSD and moving all of my of my music libraries and software to my HDD. When I explained to him that I streamed samples off of this drive, he further went on to say that the only real benefit of an SSD is instant bootup times and he still recommended putting everything on the HDD. So yeah. 

Once I got my iMac home with no help from Apple, I did more diagnostics for several days. I went hardcore extreme diagnostic. Defragged, and when that didn't work, wiped the whole HDD clean and reinstalled OSX. Still slowness issues. Now convinced it was a hardware issue since I had wiped this thing clean of any software, come to find out there was a recall on the iMac 2010 HDD about a year ago, and my HDD qualified. HOW DID APPLE NOT TELL ME THAT WHEN THEY RAN A HARDWARE DIAGNOSTIC?!

This is where it gets frustrating. In the SSD installation I had snapped the LCD Temp cable, causing the optical drive and CPU fan to run full blast. Apple, OWC, and every forum in the world assured me that the cable wasn't causing the problem, it was something else, most likely software related. My cable came in the mail over the weekend. I installed it, and guess what, my computer is back to it's healthy speed. 

So after all last week of no writing music, I'm back in the grind. Just thought I'd share.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 17, 2013)

Not to be an apologist for this particular employee, but my experience has been the opposite with the local Geniuses.

I've been working on Macs literally all day long for the past 27 years (a frightening thought). And I can't think of a situation in which I couldn't handle a troubleshooting issue...

...except for a couple of them recently. These guys deal with certain kinds of issues every day that we don't encounter.

The first was when I discovered that Mail had been simply losing the occasional outgoing email message for a few months. God knows whether I lost work, offended people who thought I was ignoring them, or thought people were ignoring me. A disaster. Now, I had to do more than the guy suggested, but he did have the right ideas and helped me avoid having to do major invasive reconstructive surgery.

The other issue was a fairly advanced network setting. Again, they deal with this stuff every day.

So I sympathize, but it sounds like you just got the wrong person.


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## autopilot (Jun 17, 2013)

dude - please pick another word in your title - like incompetent.


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 17, 2013)

*Re: Apple employees are retarded*

Maybe I did just get the wrong person because I usually have great experiences with them. This one particular situation just happened to be bundled up with tons of troubleshooting problems. I did have the same problem as you though with the mailbox, losing inbox and outgoing messages, and I actually know I lost work because of that.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 17, 2013)

autopilot @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> dude - please pick another word in your title - like incompetent.



+1


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 17, 2013)

*Re: Apple employees are retarded*

Y'all are offended?


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## 667 (Jun 17, 2013)

*Re: Apple employees are retarded*

Yup.

http://www.r-word.org


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 17, 2013)

Weird, I guess I take for granted living in a desensitized environment. I will change it.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 17, 2013)

....


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 17, 2013)

I saw your post about your son and I in no way meant any offense. I've actually spent a fair amount of time around awesome and funny retarded children and have several friends with retarded relatives, and one of those friends openly uses the word retard around friends, just not around the relative. 

By desensitized environment I just mean more of a Sticks and Stones mentality. If someone says a word I don't like, I ignore it. To me, calling a non-retard retarded is the same thing as calling my brother gay, even when he has a girlfriend. Where I live this is normal vocabulary, especially just coming out of college I heard this kind of talk all the time. 

Maybe it's just Texas.


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## MikeH (Jun 17, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> To me, calling a non-retard retarded is the same thing as calling my brother gay, even when he has a girlfriend.




Curious. Do you have any gay friends or relatives?


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 17, 2013)

Not in my family, my family would disown them, but I don't mind gay people. I have many gay friends, especially since I'm a music major.


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## gsilbers (Jun 17, 2013)

yeah. i know those geniuses are hmm... tecnically challenged. 

thus, why i do all my research beforehand and only go there to TELL THEM what to do. 

my refurbished iphone had a battery drain issuse and bad reception. so i went and told them to give me a new phone. they checked didnt see anything wrong witht he battery so i said did you check for the recption/antenna. and they didnt. so after they found a problem and gave me a new iphone. non refurbished. 


usually the "geniuses" are there to help out the herd of apple superficial users like my wife who couldnt really know or run disk utility. then yes, those geniuses are a genius for that. 

also, there is always one hard core rep. who really knows and understandf.

most will just think i am a dumbass for askign more than 8gb of ram on my computer. "no one uses that much" sigh


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## jaredcowing (Jun 17, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> Maybe it's just Texas.



It's pretty clear you meant no harm but I wouldn't use the word in a professional setting. It is indeed a word that gets tossed around casually in many places, and people have many differing views on political correctness/how far it should go... but like lots of language used between friends, it's best to stay away when you're in professional mode (if not out of consideration, at least in the interest of not burning bridges). Not only could someone who doesn't fall under the word's definition be offended, but it's very possible someone else in the meeting room who is high-functioning with asperger's, bipolar, etc etc could hear you use the word and feel themselves singled out- not at all what you intended, but it's a good thing to be aware of.


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## Arbee (Jun 17, 2013)

In my experience the most appropriate word would be delusional rather then dumb. As they say "never believe your own publicity", cool doesn't trump substance....


.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

Sam, I've thought about what you've said in this thread and decided to respond at some length, so please pardon both the longevity and the pedantic nature of the following- it's meant without any ill will.

I think what bothers me, Sam, is that you seem to think the "de-sensitized environment" you exist in covers the entire world, and you seem sort of unapologetic when some of us have suggested it doesn't, as in " well, it should be" (though I realize you didn't outright say that). My opinion is that taking your regionality as universal is a mistake.

Your example of "cool retarded kids" is telling. Many racists assure us they can't be racist because they have a black or Latino friend. This makes them theoretically cool with the other 50 million or so non-whites, though they may well generalize widely about them.

As an example, the "n-word" has come to be used more among white kids who've adopted the language of rappers and hip hop artists they admire, but to many many older AND younger Americans, it's quite insulting, and you'd probably want to be very careful about its use whether you end it with an a or with an n . Similarly, the "r word" is offensive to many people, so it would probably be wise to drop it outside your peer group when talking about "incompetent" or "dumb" people.

One last thing- there is a vast difference between learning disabled and being mentally or developmentally challenged. Whether you educate yourself about that or not, you should be aware there's a difference. Cheers and good luck to you.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> but I don't mind gay people. I have many gay friends, especially since I'm a music major.



Gee, that's big of you :roll:


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 19, 2013)

It is coming from my family, believe me. My libertarian views are a stark contrast to my families hardcore conservative values. There's speculation that my aunt has recently gone Lesbian, and there is so much trash talk going on behind her back it's unreal. 

But @NYC Composer, by de-sensitized environment I definitely don't think it covers the entire world. While I do wish the world was more de-sensitized, I obviously know it's not hence this whole thread. I can honestly say that when I wrote the title of the thread I in no way registered saying retarded as offensive, which I guess is part of the problem. I know better than to say that kind of stuff in public around people I don't know, just like I'd never say the n-word around a black person I didn't know, but I never thought of the forum as a place for that. So my apologies. 

And my example of cool retarded kids I think was a little misunderstood. I'm not saying that because I know some I get the privilege to use the word. I'm saying that I'm not ignorant in what being retarded is, just I have a distinct separation from actually using the word in a context not associated with an actual retarded person. To me, calling a homework assignment gay or retarded is not the same thing as calling a retarded person retarded or a gay person gay. I grew up in a very un-politically correct environment, and while it's been a struggle to censor myself sometimes, I'm getting better. I love my grandma, but she still says the n-word and is very racist towards black people. But she's just a product of her upbringing, just as I'm a product of the environment I grew up in. 

So I am sorry for using the word in an offensive manner, it was not my intention, and I hope my defense didn't come off disrespectful or offensive either. Just explaining where I'm coming from.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

You say Sam "While I do wish the world was more de-sensitized,"

I don't want a world where it is OK to "call a homework assignment gay or retarded ." I want a world where it would not even occur to people to say that.


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## doctornine (Jun 19, 2013)

Jeez, I've found other posts on this forum far more offensive than this one.


To the OP.... try something like Muppet as an insult, better still find two words that make no sense and stick them together : lawn cowboy, peanut golfer, etc etc etc

:wink:


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 19, 2013)

I hear ya bud.
I've been asked to work at both the local Apple Store and The Good Guys (Aussie equivalent to Best Buy?) after teaching the sales reps a thing or two.
After my experience with HP wrecking my laptop even more than what it was, then replacing it with a different model, i troubleshoot everything myself now. iMac, Macbook Pro, custom built PC, digital piano, even mobile phone repairs.
Mind you, I'm sure lack of funds have contributed to my self-taught tech skills.

Feel free to use some of these Aussie insults too: Drongo, Galah, Boof-head.
Use the pre-fix "bloody" for bonus points.


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## nikolas (Jun 19, 2013)

I'm Greek. We don't have issues with descriptive words really... a retard is a retard (slower working mind?). That's in the Greek language. I'm not sure how else to express what I'm saying but I definitely mean no disrespect to anyone!

But, I do have a question... I'm "white" (actually I'm fairly tanned, so... :D I'm almost Arabic by nature! :D). If I meet someone 'black', or want to describe my meeting someone, who on earth do I mention him so as not to insult? The n-word is out of the question. Black and Colored seems to be out too, or not?

I'm honestly curious... Nothing else... :-/


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 19, 2013)

nikolas @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> I'm Greek. We don't have issues with descriptive words really... a retard is a retard (slower working mind?). That's in the Greek language. I'm not sure how else to express what I'm saying but I definitely mean no disrespect to anyone!



Welcome to political correctness. It's out of control.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> nikolas @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm Greek. We don't have issues with descriptive words really... a retard is a retard (slower working mind?). That's in the Greek language. I'm not sure how else to express what I'm saying but I definitely mean no disrespect to anyone!
> ...



There is a difference between mindless p.c.and sensitivity to others. Hopefully you will evolve beyond the way you say you were raised.


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## Alex Cuervo (Jun 19, 2013)

So, let's get this straight... You have a bad experience with one employee of a company, and so the obvious conclusion is that ALL of them are dumb. 

Your general lack of understanding/empathy and adherence to the "political correctness" concept is very telling.

If I may be permitted to make my own generalization/oversimplification - you seem like a typical spoiled Highland Park rich kid. 

I don't miss Dallas. Not one bit.


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## wst3 (Jun 19, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Welcome to political correctness. It's out of control.



I don't believe you will find many folks anywhere that do not believe the whole PC thing is out of control.

But what you need to understand is that the whole PC movement was a reaction to people using language as a cudgel. The pendulum has swung too far in the direction of choosing words so as to avoid offending ANYONE.

What we really need is a society that is not so sensitive that words are considered harmful, while at the same time respecting the fact that sometimes they are.

That's pretty evolved, and I'm starting to lose confidence that we are capable...

My son has mild developmental challenges, my Godson has severe development issues. And yet I can't imagine anything I care less about than how you describe Apple Store employees. I think it shows a certain ignorance about the meaning of the word - it was clearly meant to be derogatory in your context, but it is not, in fact meant to be insulting... rather it is meant to be descriptive. 

I am aware that some people care a great deal about such words, and out of respect for them I avoid using such language. In the meantime hope to raise my son to ignore such poor choices.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> nikolas @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm Greek. We don't have issues with descriptive words really... a retard is a retard (slower working mind?). That's in the Greek language. I'm not sure how else to express what I'm saying but I definitely mean no disrespect to anyone!
> ...





Sheesh, you apologize for offending anybdy, but "pc is out of control" so people should just get over it. Thank you for making my earlier point, and i guess my effort to re- sensitize you fell on deaf ears. Your parents obviously had more influence on you than you realize.

Nikolas- I've never seen you be intentionally offensive here, but yes, in America that word is used not only to describe people who are mentally challenged. Ignorant oeople expand the use of it to anyone they feel is incompetent or stupid, and it's quite offensive to a lot of people.


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 19, 2013)

Just because I'm sorry I offended you doesn't mean I can't believe pc is out of control.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2013)

> I don't believe you will find many folks anywhere that do not believe the whole PC thing is out of control.



Well, I'm one of those folks. Or I should say I'm one of those folks who find the whole "saying PC is out of control" thing out of control.

That person is typically a bigot. Not you, Bill, but it's code language.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> > I don't believe you will find many folks anywhere that do not believe the whole PC thing is out of control.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed. It is code for "please don't infringe on my ability to say something that implies the "other" is inferior without consequence."


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Just because I'm sorry I offended you doesn't mean I can't believe pc is out of control.



To translate- "just because it offended YOU doesn't make it generally offensive."

I wonder where the cutoff point is. If a word offends 1 out of 3 people outside of the insular world of DFW, would that be enough to be careful with it? 1 out of 4?

In my mind, I'm picturing you saying "Wow- being that pc is really gay. People are so retarded sometimes." I don't think you're really listening or learning, more like "get over it."

Also, btw? Your earlier premise that you ignore any insult thrown your way is ludicrous. I guarantee I could find numerous insulting things to say that you'd take personally. :wink:


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 19, 2013)

Something will always offend someone. I don't know where the cutoff is. If people were to filter what they said because it might upset someone, we'd all say very little. It's not the person's job to cater to other peoples feelings. If you're offended by something someone says, that's on you. It's not a 100% tried and true concept, we all get offended, but when I get offended I don't blame the other person, I blame myself for letting what someone said get to me.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Something will always offend someone. I don't know where the cutoff is. If people were to filter what they said because it might upset someone, we'd all say very little. It's not the person's job to cater to other peoples feelings. If you're offended by something someone says, that's on you. It's not a 100% tried and true concept, we all get offended, but when I get offended I don't blame the other person, I blame myself for letting what someone said get to me.



Nonsense, common sense dictates that certain terms are offensive to large portions of the culture as a whole, and not considering t it under the guise of not being "politically correct" is simply a childish aspect of human nature that we learn to outgrow.


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## jleckie (Jun 19, 2013)

Really? Considering its the offender who does the offending I would thing the offender is where the problem lies and not in the offendees reaction to it.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Something will always offend someone. I don't know where the cutoff is. If people were to filter what they said because it might upset someone, we'd all say very little. It's not the person's job to cater to other peoples feelings. If you're offended by something someone says, that's on you. It's not a 100% tried and true concept, we all get offended, but when I get offended I don't blame the other person, I blame myself for letting what someone said get to me.



My final advice- don't leave Texas, always have plenty of money, and don't talk to people who don't believe exactly as you do, as others might pound you into hamburger when you loose your uncensored thoughts.


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## synergy543 (Jun 19, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> My final advice- don't leave Texas, always have plenty of money, and don't talk to people who don't believe exactly as you do, as others might pound you into hamburger when you loose your uncensored thoughts.


Its interesting how those who feel offended seem to have no problem offending back.

Its so great to see musicians helping other musicians to "get it" (or "pound you into hamburger - such a sweet thought. Y'all from Texas luv hamburgers dont cha?). 

Clearly being offensive isn't the issue, but its more about how you go about it.


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## jleckie (Jun 19, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> SamGarnerStudios @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > My final advice- don't leave Texas, always have plenty of money, and don't talk to people who don't believe exactly as you do, as others might pound you into hamburger when you loose your uncensored thoughts.



This is sage advice.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

synergy543 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Its interesting how those who feel offended seem to have no problem offending back.
> 
> Its so great to see musicians helping other musicians to "get it".
> 
> Clearly being offensive isn't the issue, but its more about how you go about it.



There is a difference in offending people by criticizing them for what they do, say, and write and offending them for demeaning people for who they are by birth.

is that _really_ not what you also believe?


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## Mike Greene (Jun 19, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> By desensitized environment I just mean more of a Sticks and Stones mentality. If someone says a word I don't like, I ignore it. To me, calling a non-retard retarded is the same thing as calling my brother gay, even when he has a girlfriend.


It might only be words, but there are (gay) kids who kill themselves because they have a sense that society rejects them. Not to be over-dramatic, but it's true.

It's easy, as a straight person, to believe they should have a thicker skin. But when a young gay kid, not only dealing with all the teen "fitting in" stuff that all teens deal with, but also struggling with his sexuality and wondering if there's something wrong with him, hears "gay" used repeatedly in rap songs, at school, on the internet, even by his family, as an insult, it's gonna take a toll. He _might_ understand that you're not talking about his gayness literally . . but given that many people *do* mean gay as an insult specifically because it's an unacceptable perversion, at minimum it's another straw on the back. It may seem that he's being over-sensitive, but the countless suicides indicate that it's very much real.

Don't get me wrong, I completely believe you that you mean no harm when you say "gay" or "retard." And truth be told, I'm not much for the PC stuff either. But . . . I'm a straight white male, so I have to understand that maaaaybe my perspective may not be the same as the person who may be hurt by my words.

So I refrain from using certain words. No big deal. I don't say "gay" as an insult, because I know people who struggled with this and told me that the word, even when meant in fun, hurt them. I don't say "retard" because I believe people like Larry who tell me it's hurtful.

And I don't say "ugly" because then Jay gets all upset.


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## synergy543 (Jun 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> There is a difference in offending people by criticizing them for what they do, say, and write and offending them for demeaning people for who they are by birth.
> 
> is that _really_ not what you also believe?


I believe that you can criticize someone without being offensive. My problem is with ayone who feels they need to be offensive for whatever reason.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

ROTFL!

(But now I will come in the middle of the night, sneak up behind you and hit you in the head with a tire iron because I am offended


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

synergy543 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > There is a difference in offending people by criticizing them for what they do, say, and write and offending them for demeaning people for who they are by birth.
> ...



Well, I called no one names or impugned them in any way other than to accuse them of insensitivity, I trust that meets that standard?


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## synergy543 (Jun 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> ROTFL!
> 
> (But now I will come in the middle of the night, sneak up behind you and hit you in the head with a tire iron because I am offended



So now its funny to offend with physical threats?

Is that really what you believe Jay? Seriously?


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

synergy543 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > My final advice- don't leave Texas, always have plenty of money, and don't talk to people who don't believe exactly as you do, as others might pound you into hamburger when you loose your uncensored thoughts.
> ...



We love hamburgers here in NYC, and my intent as to the pounded stuff was meant to try to keep him out of harm's way. Bringing regional thinking into a macrocosm and believing it's the offended's problem when they're offended is an excellent way to get hurt or killed when one crosses the wrong line in the wrong place. I've seen it happen plenty of times in places such as NYC, where cultures cross each other block by block.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

synergy543 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > ROTFL!
> ...



You KNOW I am joking with Mike, who is my friend, unless you are not as bright as I think you are.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 19, 2013)

One clarification - There's a distinction between "offending" someone and "hurting" them. I don't believe anyone has a right to never be offended. For that, absolutely some people need a thicker skin.

But "gay" or "retard" are different, because IMHO, those words actually hurt people.

For example, I refrain from saying "retard" not because I don't want to offend Larry, but rather because I believe the word hurts his son.

_<EDIT> Actually, I don't want to offend Larry either, but hopefully the distinction is clear anyway._


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## Conor (Jun 19, 2013)

Wow. I want my 10 minutes back. >_<

But, to return to the topic: http://xkcd.com/806/


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## synergy543 (Jun 19, 2013)

Well, hot damn! Now, we've got ourselves a musicians blasting musicians BBQ.

Y'all are welcome to come visit here in Ore-GUN. Just be careful stepping onto the property as we often mistake other 'critters' here for varmints.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> One clarification - There's a distinction between "offending" someone and "hurting" them. I don't believe anyone has a right to never be offended. For that, absolutely some people need a thicker skin.
> 
> But "gay" or "retard" are different, because IMHO, those words actually hurt people.
> 
> ...



I'm totally offended, but i love the NAMM reports so I won't move to Oregon, lure you there and mistake you for a critter.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

Speaking for myself, but I suspect Larry and Mike will agree, i am not saying that you are a bad guy, Sam. By your own admission you were raised in an environment where at least some close elements think Gays and Blacks are "less" because they are Gay and/or Black.

Since you appear to be a young fellow I, perhaps we, are not trying to grind you into the dirt but to perhaps educate you to the fact that it is not just a matter of political correctness. The use of those terms can cause real harm to people's psyches and it costs us nothing to raise our consciousness a little and simply be aware of it and act accordingly.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

synergy543 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Well, hot damn! Now, we've got ourselves a musicians blasting musicians BBQ.
> 
> Y'all are welcome to come visit here in Ore-GUN. Just be careful stepping onto the property as we often mistake other 'critters' here for varmints.



I'm not understanding your point of view. Is it your feeling, like Sam's, that it is ok to express one's self in the ways one has learned within one's culture even after learning it is offensive to people outside that culture? And the idea that the "world is too pc" justifies that? That if people are offended by something, it's "on them?" Wouldn't the better part of getting along with people societally be to try NOT to offend if possible?

I don't see how it qualifies as bashing when you try to tell a fellow musician something you've learned over the 37 years he hasn't been on the planet. I hope there are things I can learn from him as well, things I'm too old and set in my ways to have considered. This one, however, I've considered, written about and acted on for a very long time.

No one has made any physical threats here- what I said was a general warning about how the world works, and what Jay said was joking with Mike. Personally, I haven't had a physical altercation for 40 years.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Speaking for myself, but I suspect Larry and Mike will agree, i am not saying that you are a bad guy, Sam. By your own admission you were raised in an environment where at least some close elements think Gays and Blacks are "less" because they are Gay and/or Black.
> 
> Since you appear to be a young fellow I, perhaps we, are not trying to grind you into the dirt but to perhaps educate you to the fact that it is not just a matter of political correctness. The use of those terms can cause real harm to people's psyches and it costs us nothing to raise our consciousness a little and simply be aware of it and act accordingly.



+1. No bashing intended, no " you're a bad guy" intended, just an invitation to consider a different outlook, an out of the box viewpoint.


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## synergy543 (Jun 19, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> I'm not understanding your point of view. Is it your feeling, like Sam's, that it is ok to express one's self in the ways one has learned within one's culture even after learning it is offensive to people outside that culture? And the idea that the "world is too pc" justifies that? That if people are offended by something, it's "on them?" Wouldn't the better part of getting along with people societally be to try NOT to offend if possible?
> 
> I don't see how it qualifies as bashing when you try to tell a fellow musician something you've learned over the 37 years he hasn't been on the planet. I hope there are things I can learn from him as well, things I'm too old and set in my ways to have considered. This one, however, I've considered, written about and acted on for a very long time.
> 
> No one has made any physical threats here- what I said was a general warning about how the world works, and what Jay said was joking with Mike. Personally, I haven't had a physical altercation for 40 years.


Larry, you don't get it huh? OK, let me try to explain. Reading this thread, I see that some were offended and made that clear. And then more came onboard with the same points...although the rhetoric started getting hotter and hotter, to the point that those who were initially offended seemed to become the offenders themselves (Don't leave Texas or you'll be pummeled into hamburger, then jokes about bashing with tire iron?) The rush to jump on the bandwagon and attack the initial offender seemed to be getting out of hand, not unlike a witch hunt.

Hypocrisy don't you think?

I simply came on board to suggest we might be able to critique each other in a more friendly way. And now the pitch forks are aimed my way. Go figure.

Have a nice day.

All the opinions expressed in this message belong solely to the poster and do not represet the opinions of vi-control or its representative. No animals or pixels were offended or harmed in the creation of this post.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

synergy543 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not understanding your point of view. Is it your feeling, like Sam's, that it is ok to express one's self in the ways one has learned within one's culture even after learning it is offensive to people outside that culture? And the idea that the "world is too pc" justifies that? That if people are offended by something, it's "on them?" Wouldn't the better part of getting along with people societally be to try NOT to offend if possible?
> ...



Do you really want me to have a nice day, or are you being insulting?  

No witch hunt, no pitchforks, logical debate about the nature of offense in a civil society. You feel i made my point in an offensive way. I can see that. I probably let a little frustration show with Sam's pov that the offended are at fault. I'm sure i could have put it in a less caustic way, but I repeat- it's a world class misunderstanding of how people work, and it is a dangerous one when traveling the world. The thrust of my intent was to protect Sam, as he is young and (hopefully) still learning the ways of the world.

Yes, sometimes the world is too pc, but when you learn about something that offends a good deal of people, you should avoid it. It's simple good manners.


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## wst3 (Jun 19, 2013)

While I find myself agreeing with Larry, Jay, and others in this thread, I think it's a whole lot simpler...

sometimes words are used in a derogatory fashion. After a while, the words become derogatory in and of themselves... which is unfortunate, but I can't change that.

so it seems to me that it's pretty simple - if a word can be used to be descriptive (black and retarded are both descriptions of conditions, one refers to a person's skin color, one refers to a broad spectrum of developmental disorders) then use it when it is being used as a factual description.

But in the original post the term 'retarded' was used to denigrate an employee at a retail store, and by extension all employers of this retailer.

I think most will agree that this is not a good use of the word. And where or how you grew up really does not excuse using the work incorrectly...


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## synergy543 (Jun 19, 2013)

Larry, I get where you're coming from, I really do. My observation wasn't just directed at you but at the "group think" that was appearing in the entire thread - the "lets all gang up on this Texas boy and straight'n im up." My apologies for quoting only you, but as a matter of practicality, I couldn't easily quote everyone. No offense intended.

I've no problem with your message and I'm not even entering into that territory. My problem was the way the message was being delivered by an angry crowd with pitchforks ("why string 'em up and lash him when we can have some fun with him (he he..")

And yes, I sincerely wish you a nice day. The way each of us acts does have an effect upon the world we live in. Having tolerance for everyone (not just special interest groups) makes the world a better place.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2013)

All Apple employees are gay.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2013)

(Not true, of course. I just wanted to stir up some controversy here. Nobody seems to get excited enough.)


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

I am only intolerant of peope with the last name "Batzdorf". Thankfully, it's not exactly Smith or Jones.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

synergy543 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Larry, I get where you're coming from, I really do. My observation wasn't just directed at you but at the "group think" that was appearing in the entire thread - the "lets all gang up on this Texas boy and straight'n im up." My apologies for quoting only you, but as a matter of practicality, I couldn't easily quote everyone. No offense intended.
> 
> I've no problem with your message and I'm not even entering into that territory. My problem was the way the message was being delivered by an angry crowd with pitchforks (why string 'em up and lash him when we can have some fun with him (he he..)"
> 
> And yes, I sincerely wish you a nice day. The way each of us acts does have an effect upon the world we live in. Having tolerance for everyone (not just special interest groups) makes the world a better place.



Cool, mate, and on we go on this life's voyage, eh?  Cheers.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

Oh, back on topic sorta, i recently took my Mac Pro to a local fixit place that's close to my studio. My general advice- get a Mini. The Mac Pro weighs more than my mother in law.

Mostly, the Geniuses have been ok for me, but truthfully, i hate taking anything in anywhere, as i usually know twice as much about my machine as anybody i give it to.


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## Arbee (Jun 19, 2013)

We take our local selves and attempt to communicate globally in forums like this. We are inevitably going to put both feet in our mouth on occasion, but hopefully we become wiser and more "world-savvy" as a result.

One of my most glaring examples of this was taking my irreverent Aussie humour to a family dinner in Wales (UK). I made a flippant humorous comment about the Welsh and English, which all but one person thought was very funny. Unknown to me, one of the guests was a staunch Welsh national who literally flew across the room at me in an attempt to land a punch :shock: Kind of spoiled the nice family dinner mood  

Sorry for digressing, back to Apple.....


.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 19, 2013)

synergy543 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> . . . then jokes about bashing with tire iron?


Just to reiterate, the tire iron joke was Jay responding to my post, not yours. No nastiness intended. Your post came a minute before his, so the timing kinda made things confusing. But here's what it was all about:

Me - _bunch of stuff ending with . . . "And I don't say "ugly" because then Jay gets all upset."_

Jay - _"ROTFL! 
(But now I will come in the middle of the night, sneak up behind you and hit you in the head with a tire iron because I am offended.  "_


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 19, 2013)

synergy543 @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> .


 then jokes about bashing with tire iron?) Tsize][/quote]

Did you read the post right before mine where Mike kidded me about being ugly? If you did not, ignore what I say next. If you DID and you did not know I was joking, then you are,...screw it, fill it in for yourself.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 19, 2013)

What do all of you have against Jewish people?


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 19, 2013)

Come back from my gig to see this thread exploded. I just want to set the record straight because I'm getting the feeling that everyone is thinking this about me. I don't actually go around saying whatever I want. I'm very sensitive towards people's feeling, regardless of how thick skinned I people should be, I'm not a jerk IRL. I'm not the dude that calls the bride fat on her wedding day. When I first made the title "Apple employees are retarded", I didn't for a split second even think about that being offensive. I never set out to intentionally harm someone, and I never would insult someone that was born with a condition. 

But I actually am moving to Miami to get my Graduate degree at University of Miami in a month, so I've already got plans to get out of Texas, even though I'll miss it dearly.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> When I first made the title "Apple employees are retarded", I didn't for a split second even think about that being offensive.



I absolutely believe you, which is why your subsequent comments about pc-ness and all were so puzzling. When it was made clear to you that you HAD unintentionally offended some people, you simultaneously apologized and went into "I don't see why it should be this way" mode. Had it been only the first, I wouldn't have said a thing except 'thanks for understanding and changing the thread title".


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## Mike Greene (Jun 19, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> I'm not the dude that calls the bride fat on her wedding day.


No, that would be me.

I'd only say this to the guests, though. And maybe the groom. But never to the bride directly, of course. That would be rude. 

:mrgreen:


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## NYC Composer (Jun 19, 2013)

Does this dress make me look fat?


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## LFO (Jun 20, 2013)

Aren't the internets interesting? A young kid makes an insensitive post and is immediately judged as being a spoiled rich kid, told he should never leave his state, treated like he went out and bullied someone instead of just putting his foot in his mouth and finally `given sage advice' that he better watch out in big, bad NY because he might get pounded into hamburger meat if he dare says anything that someone might take offense to.

At least he's a kid who is has the excuse of youth for his slight misstep.

The OP has every right to apologize for his choice of words and still maintain that the world is too PC. Mainly, because he is right. (Juan Williams anyone?) We all see the ridiculous stories of how one person somehow offends another. PC is certainly out of control. The OP was not hypocritical in the least, he acknowledged what he said was insensitive, but still feels that PC is out of control there is no conflict there.

I have a nephew and niece, twins, with severe down syndrome. They are great! But when I hear someone exclaim (or title a thread on a single forum on the Internet) `That's retarded!' I don't, and should not get my panties in a wad about it. In this case wouldn't the PC reaction to the thread title be a PM that says something like, `Hey, you might want to rethink your title, using the word retard like that probably isn't a good idea' instead of dog piling him publicly?


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## NYC Composer (Jun 20, 2013)

LFO @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> Aren't the internets interesting? A young kid makes an insensitive post and is immediately judged as being a spoiled rich kid, told he should never leave his state, treated like he went out and bullied someone instead of just putting his foot in his mouth and finally `given sage advice' that he better watch out in big, bad NY because he might get pounded into hamburger meat if he dare says anything that someone might take offense to.
> 
> At least he's a kid who is has the excuse of youth for his slight misstep.
> 
> ...



I'm sure you're right. Cheers.


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## George Caplan (Jun 20, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> When I first made the title "Apple employees are retarded", I didn't for a split second even think about that being offensive.



you never said all apple employees are retarded. you never specifically named a single apple employee. so im here to tell you that you can say whatever you like when you like to whom you like unless it litigious and what you said is not. because its non specific.

the second you give way to people on the internet you are doa. so dont do it. the way these assholes on this thread went for you is a form of bullying. if you give way to internet assholes you will have to give to to real people before you know it.

good luck with your studies. nice to see at least two of here have at least managed to do that! :wink:


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## gdoubleyou (Jun 20, 2013)

>8o ~o)


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 20, 2013)

LFO @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> Aren't the internets interesting? A young kid makes an insensitive post and is immediately judged as being a spoiled rich kid, told he should never leave his state, treated like he went out and bullied someone instead of just putting his foot in his mouth and finally `given sage advice' that he better watch out in big, bad NY because he might get pounded into hamburger meat if he dare says anything that someone might take offense to.
> 
> At least he's a kid who is has the excuse of youth for his slight misstep.
> 
> ...



Speaking for myself, I did none of that except to try to educate him.

As for your nephew and niece, you OWE it to them IMHO to educate people like Sam who use the term "retarded" in an unthinking way. You are either part of the solution or you are part of the problem.


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## Greg (Jun 20, 2013)

This topic should have never been created in the first place. 

Get real. If you can't put up with people not being able to instantly solve your problems then go live in a cave.


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## MarkS_Comp (Jun 20, 2013)

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with "retarded", but that's just me. If you think it shouldn't be used, that's cool.

But what I fail to understand is why people (like the OP) *MUST* take to a public forum and post like this, and give people the sense of something that just is not true. 

*Apple employees are dumb*

According to your OP, you had one bad experience with someone who was not suited to help you and your problem. So you say *Apple employees are dumb* as a result. Talk about unprofessional, immature and irresponsible behaviour! How old are you? If someone from this forum goes on another forum, states he is a memeber here, and acts like a jerk while over there, can someone from that forum start a thread there with a thread topic of *VI Control members are jerks*? Well, he _can_, but he too would be a jerk for doing so.

So, according to reports I have seen, Apple employs about 50,000 people. So, I take it you are saying that ALL 50,000 of these people are dumb? Because that's what you are absically saying with your thread title. Do us all a favor, and don't lump everyone in to one basket, k? How about a thread title of* Had a bad experience with Apple support *- or - *Apple tech guy seems to be clueless*.

Couldnt do that could you?


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## Alex Cuervo (Jun 20, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> Personally, I don't see anything wrong with "retarded", but that's just me. If you think it shouldn't be used, that's cool.
> 
> But what I fail to understand is why people (like the OP) *MUST* take to a public forum and post like this, and give people the sense of something that just is not true.
> 
> ...



This was precisely my point - independent of the whole "PC" debate.

But regarding this notion of PC as some kind of social oppression - I call BS on that.

Bottom line is - it's a free country. People can say whatever they want - but the price of that is that other people might call you out if you're being a jerk. This whole "PC police" notion is just a shield to deflect embarrassment.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 20, 2013)

Exactly, Alex. Freedom to say what you like does not come with an accompanying right to be free from criticism for doing so.

Lord knows, I have learned to understand that here


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 20, 2013)

Obviously not every Apple employee is dumb. But after several weeks of several issues, I made a slight sarcastic/general statement. I could have posted "Had a bad experience with Apple support - or - Apple tech guy seems to be clueless" but I guess that's my fault for forgetting some people might react like you. And the fact that I initially used the word retarded (before I changed it) even more highlights the fact that I don't actually think everyone at Apple is mentally impaired.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 20, 2013)

George Caplan @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> SamGarnerStudios @ Wed Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > When I first made the title "Apple employees are retarded", I didn't for a split second even think about that being offensive.
> ...



George-first let me compliment you on your spirited defense of the First Amendment. I heartily concur, it's a free country, and people can say what they like.

That said, however, we ALSO agree that the "internet" gives people freedom to be "assholes" (charming choice, by the way). I say we should remove the silly and unnecessary barrier of a computer screen and just speak man to man, where you can repeat the epithet you used to my face, perhaps over a beverage? This will give me the opportunity to prove to you that I'm also an asshole in real life, and give us an opportunity to candidly discuss the wonders and inherent responsibilities that free speech holds in a civil society.

What say, old chap? Your place or mine? Please PM me your address or a meeting place, or if you ever leave Glastonbury for some cultural expedition, I'd be happy to host or suggest a place to meet. Cheers!


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## MarkS_Comp (Jun 20, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> ....but I guess that's my fault for forgetting some people might react like you....



Uhh, there is nothing wrong with the way I reacted. There is, however, something wrong with your thread title. I am not saying you are a bad person, just that your choice of words in this instance was pretty stupid.

And yes, we have FOS in this country. The same laws that allow Sam to post the way he did, allow others to bash him for it.


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## Dan Mott (Jun 20, 2013)

we have to end apartheid, for one, 

slow down the nuclear arms race, stop terrorism and world hunger. 

We have to provide food and shelter for the homeless... 

and oppose racial discrimination and promote civil rights, 

while also promoting equal rights for women. 

We have to encourage a return... 

to traditional moral values. 

Most importantly, 

we have to promote general social concern... 

and less materialism in young people.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 20, 2013)

I say, isn't it absolutely smashing when a pair of landed gentry have it off with a spot of fisticuffs. Tally ho, gents.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 20, 2013)

Fisticuffs?? Heaven forfend. I'm suggesting a meeting of the minds. At close range.


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## yellowstudio (Jun 20, 2013)

Can we please have this thread closed? Nothig good has been coming from it for the past two and a half pages.

The rest of my post I just deleted, as I realized I'm part of the problem also. The problem of endless arguing in threads where people won't change their opinions, mind you, not the perceived "hatecrime" problem.

So long
Andreas


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## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2013)

yellowstudio @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> Can we please have this thread closed? Nothig good has been coming from it for the past two and a half pages.
> 
> The rest of my post I just deleted, as I realized I'm part of the problem also. The problem of endless arguing in threads where people won't change their opinions, mind you, not the perceived "hatecrime" problem.
> 
> ...



"Hatecrime"? I haven't seen any of that, just a discussion about sensitivities and how to get along with each other, which people have varying views on. Is the world too pc? Is not pc enough? Here in America, there's a pretty vast divide about how people address each other and what's ok, but one thing is for certain, The InterWeb does allow for a certain freedom of expression the likes of which I rarely see in day to day life when people are looking at each other.

I don't think Sam, for example, has "changed his mind" about anything, but he's obviously learned a new thing, that some people can be offended by a word he used before with no clue about its ability to offend. Now, of course, he can do what he will with that information, but going forward, he can't say he didn't know.

This thread, like all, will peter out soon enough, Andreas-may I respectfully suggest that you just not read it? Deleting has always felt like censorship to me, and though I have no particular interest in continuing an argument, I do like a more organic approach.


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## kitekrazy (Jun 21, 2013)

Greg @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> This topic should have never been created in the first place.
> 
> Get real. * If you can't put up with people not being able to instantly solve your problems then go live in a cave.*



You've never worked in a service related industry then. I've had people get upset with me who made purchases from a competitor and want me to fix that problem. People think "the customer is always right" is some universal law. So they have this entitlement mentality towards those providing a service.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 21, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> Fisticuffs?? Heaven forfend. I'm suggesting a meeting of the minds. At close range.



I prefer a baseball bat 

For the clueless among you, and you know who you are, that is a joke.


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## kitekrazy (Jun 21, 2013)

gsilbers @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> yeah. i know those geniuses are hmm... tecnically challenged.
> 
> *thus, why i do all my research beforehand and only go there to TELL THEM what to do. *
> 
> ...



That is the way to do it. You save those from helping you give out the 20 questions. How annoying is it when some posts "My soundcard isn't working" and leave it at that.

I tend not to be rough on people trying to provide service. Walk in those shoes and see what it's like. Most of them are not experts and given the minimum training to do their job. They are definitely not reimbursed like an expert.

I use to see post on other forums about how stupid Guitar Center employees are. Basically some people will go in an give a sale person a quiz on something very trivial and then go complain on a forum. Oh my they don't know every feature on the 22 different amps they sell. It is not a good place to work nor does it pay well.

I tend to be a little more sympathetic towards people in a brick and mortar service industry.


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## kitekrazy (Jun 21, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> I say, isn't it absolutely smashing when a pair of landed gentry have it off with a spot of fisticuffs. Tally ho, gents.



I bet some have done a great job of intimidating the OP from posting here again. "KVR here I come." Referrals-negative.

He needed to put on his flame retardant suit. Oops, I meant flame resistant suit.


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 21, 2013)

Nah, I'm not going anywhere lol. This forum is too resourceful


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## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2013)

kitekrazy @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jun 20 said:
> 
> 
> > I say, isn't it absolutely smashing when a pair of landed gentry have it off with a spot of fisticuffs. Tally ho, gents.
> ...



You lost your bet. Pay up. Sincerely, some. :wink:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2013)

Oy.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2013)

kitekrazy @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> Greg @ Thu Jun 20 said:
> 
> 
> > This topic should have never been created in the first place.
> ...



Are you suggesting the OP has an "entitlement mentality"? Aren't you worried that, given that critique, he might never post here again?


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