# Big Templates, Multi-Mic Libraries and Reverb: How to Handle?



## dadadave (Aug 31, 2020)

I'm trying to understand how people with large orchestral template handle reverb and multi-mic libraries that have been recorded in different places to make all those different libraries sound coherent, in a spacial sense. Here's what I'm unclear and curious about:

Do you 

*a)* ignore room mics completely, use close mics all the way and handle it all with early reflections and maybe a second reverb (and eq)?

*b)* pick the room sound of the developer you like best (or use the most libraries of) and use close mics on all the libraries recorded elsewhere and try to approximate that room sound with reverb?

*c)* tweak multiple mic positions of libraries recorded in different recording spaces to match each other, because, actually, once you slap an additional master reverb on everything, they sound good enough and it glues, spacialisation-wise?

*d)* use a big template, but only ever use specific libraries together at the same time to avoid the issue?

*e)* something else entirely that I haven't thought of?


a) sounds a bit weird to me when library makers take such pains to provide a gazillion mic positions, b) seems plausible, c) seems tricky but maybe I'm overestimating the challenges of getting it to sound good, d) would raise the question why to have one big template and not multiple smaller ones in the first place.

Thanks for any pointers and tips! 

(questions are too long for a poll...)


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## JonS (Aug 31, 2020)

dadadave said:


> I'm trying to understand how people with large orchestral template handle reverb and multi-mic libraries that have been recorded in different places to make all those different libraries sound coherent, in a spacial sense. Here's what I'm unclear and curious about:
> 
> Do you
> 
> ...


I want to spend as much time as possible composing not tweaking, so I tend to stick with a specific multi mic mix then leave it alone most of the time.


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## georgewmusic (Sep 2, 2020)

a few thoughts.

I'm assuming you're talking about setting up a template and not setting this up each and every time.

I always found method A to be a lot more work than it's worth in the pursuit of a homogenous sound. Mic placement is one of the most important aspects of sampling, particularly in an orchestral context. So by sticking a close mic on every instrument you deny yourself so much of the instrument's interaction with the space which can result in a very lifeless sound. For example, I always find close mic'd brass sounds awful, no matter how much you try and put it in a new space.

I prefer to employ a combination of b and c. I mostly use libraries from the same company with a few outliers here and there. I leave the same company libraries alone and then tweak the outliers mic positions so they're in keeping with the former. Top that off with the same reverb treatment and perhaps even a bit of subtle EQ and things start to sound natural.

Of course there is the consideration of RAM too which can force your hand when messing with mic positions. By leaving a large portion of my template on the out-of-the-box mix it leaves a bit more headroom for finessing the outliers into place.


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## dadadave (Sep 2, 2020)

georgewmusic said:


> a few thoughts.
> 
> I'm assuming you're talking about setting up a template and not setting this up each and every time.
> 
> ...



Yes, large templates is what I meant. Thanks for your reply!


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## JohnG (Sep 2, 2020)

If what you are trying to do is recreate the sound of a large, recorded orchestra, don't worry about some opinion about this or that mic position; instead, just pick the sounds that you personally think are the best. Sometimes it's a blend, sometimes it might be the far-away-mic.

Whatever you do, don't get caught up in some know-it-all's opinion that "if you are a REAL composer you have to start with close mics." I have seen and heard that for decades and totally reject it. A mic placed close to an instrument can never be made to sound as though it's in a hall and you're in the audience, or that it's somewhere further away. I know people say it can; I disagree.

Choose what you think sounds good. Otherwise you end up on some theoretical wild goose chase that never ends.


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## dadadave (Sep 2, 2020)

JohnG said:


> If what you are trying to do is recreate the sound of a large, recorded orchestra, don't worry about some opinion about this or that mic position; instead, just pick the sounds that you personally think are the best. Sometimes it's a blend, sometimes it might be the far-away-mic.
> 
> Whatever you do, don't get caught up in some know-it-all's opinion that "if you are a REAL composer you have to start with close mics." I have seen and heard that for decades and totally reject it. A mic placed close to an instrument can never be made to sound as though it's in a hall and you're in the audience, or that it's somewhere further away. I know people say it can; I disagree.
> 
> Choose what you think sounds good. Otherwise you end up on some theoretical wild goose chase that never ends.



Thanks for your reply. I was hoping to get ideas for a good method that save me the time and effort of just figuring out myself via trial and error what works and what doesn't. But maybe it depends on too many factors (like the libraries involved) and personal taste for there to be a method a solid majority agree upon.


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## Kent (Sep 2, 2020)

dadadave said:


> Thanks for your reply. I was hoping to get ideas for a good method that save me the time and effort of just figuring out myself via trial and error what works and what doesn't. But maybe it depends on too many factors (like the libraries involved) and personal taste for there to be a method a solid majority agree upon.


I think that is true. I've heard good-sounding music from all sorts of setups, and bad-sounding music from those same setups, so as long as you're making good music, it should be fine


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## Alex Sopala (Sep 2, 2020)

JohnG said:


> If what you are trying to do is recreate the sound of a large, recorded orchestra, don't worry about some opinion about this or that mic position; instead, just pick the sounds that you personally think are the best. Sometimes it's a blend, sometimes it might be the far-away-mic.
> 
> Whatever you do, don't get caught up in some know-it-all's opinion that "if you are a REAL composer you have to start with close mics." I have seen and heard that for decades and totally reject it. A mic placed close to an instrument can never be made to sound as though it's in a hall and you're in the audience, or that it's somewhere further away. I know people say it can; I disagree.
> 
> Choose what you think sounds good. Otherwise you end up on some theoretical wild goose chase that never ends.



Just to add on to that, I don't know of any orchestral recordings that actually close-mic all the players individually when they're all together in the hall. Cause nobody I'm aware of who records orchestras for a living wants to track 100+ tracks of close-mics at the same time, let alone assuming the studio infrastructure has the ability to do so when they can just as easily use the room mics within the hall, which is usually already tuned to sound good in that scenario. Imagine the pain of mixing all that.

Soloists are another deal, but that's just one or two of them at a time.


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## dadadave (Sep 3, 2020)

Alex Sopala said:


> Just to add on to that, I don't know of any orchestral recordings that actually close-mic all the players individually when they're all together in the hall. Cause nobody I'm aware of who records orchestras for a living wants to track 100+ tracks of close-mics at the same time, let alone assuming the studio infrastructure has the ability to do so when they can just as easily use the room mics within the hall, which is usually already tuned to sound good in that scenario. Imagine the pain of mixing all that.
> 
> Soloists are another deal, but that's just one or two of them at a time.



I'm not sure the idea behind my thread and questions came across clearly. My concern is not for a mic'ing approach for things to sound particularly nice or to mic things like a real-world orchestra would be mic'ed. It's about viable approaches to mixing libraries that have been recorded in different spaces. When real players are all being recorded in one hall, that is a whole different situation with other questions and challenges.


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## Henu (Sep 3, 2020)

JohnG said:


> A mic placed close to an instrument can never be made to sound as though it's in a hall and you're in the audience, or that it's somewhere further away. I know people say it can; I disagree.



As someone who does a lot of mixing, spent a couple of years trying the abovementioned BECAUSE OF COURSE YOU CAN AND SURE IT SOUNDS GOOD and came crawling back to use primarily room mics last month, I heartily agree on that.


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## JonS (Sep 3, 2020)

JohnG said:


> If what you are trying to do is recreate the sound of a large, recorded orchestra, don't worry about some opinion about this or that mic position; instead, just pick the sounds that you personally think are the best. Sometimes it's a blend, sometimes it might be the far-away-mic.
> 
> Whatever you do, don't get caught up in some know-it-all's opinion that "if you are a REAL composer you have to start with close mics." I have seen and heard that for decades and totally reject it. A mic placed close to an instrument can never be made to sound as though it's in a hall and you're in the audience, or that it's somewhere further away. I know people say it can; I disagree.
> 
> Choose what you think sounds good. Otherwise you end up on some theoretical wild goose chase that never ends.


John’s right, trust your ears👂 Choose the sound you prefer and don’t worry about which mic mixes are on or off or at what levels, tailor the tone for you.


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## dadadave (Sep 3, 2020)

thanks everyone for sharing your opinions. It will be interesting to see where my template ends up and if I can get, say, CSS to work with Infinite Woodwinds and Century Brass all sounding like they're in the same room using room mics and a global reverb... The routing of using multiple mics AND using reverb for spacial positioning sounds like a nightmare...


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## Ashermusic (Sep 3, 2020)

JohnG said:


> If what you are trying to do is recreate the sound of a large, recorded orchestra, don't worry about some opinion about this or that mic position; instead, just pick the sounds that you personally think are the best. Sometimes it's a blend, sometimes it might be the far-away-mic.
> 
> Whatever you do, don't get caught up in some know-it-all's opinion that "if you are a REAL composer you have to start with close mics." I have seen and heard that for decades and totally reject it. A mic placed close to an instrument can never be made to sound as though it's in a hall and you're in the audience, or that it's somewhere further away. I know people say it can; I disagree.
> 
> Choose what you think sounds good. Otherwise you end up on some theoretical wild goose chase that never ends.



Spot on, John.


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## Kent (Sep 3, 2020)

Henu said:


> As someone who does a lot of mixing, spent a couple of years trying the abovementioned BECAUSE OF COURSE YOU CAN AND SURE IT SOUNDS GOOD and came crawling back to use primarily room mics last month, I heartily agree on that.


I am in that same exact boat myself


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