# Transparent gain on master bus?



## Soundhound (May 19, 2018)

Maybe blasphemy to do this? Is there a good plugin for transparent gain on the master bus? I find sometimes I need to have different gain levels set depending on the file I'm delivering (w/out sonar works etc.) I'm in Logic and wondering if the on board Gain plugin is transparent enough? If not, any recommends for this? 

Maybe Ozone 8 with all models switched off, and just raising the in/outlevels in there?


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## iobaaboi (May 19, 2018)

Fabfilter Pro-L 2


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## AlexRuger (May 19, 2018)

Not blasphemy at all...in Cubase I constantly use the channel strip input gain.


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## RiffWraith (May 19, 2018)

http://www.sonalksis.com/freeg.html


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## rrichard63 (May 19, 2018)

I'm not an expert and won't venture an opinion of my own. So I'd love to hear from someone who has some background in audio software development. I have naively been assuming that gain knobs/sliders are all pretty much the same thing.


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## chrisboy (May 19, 2018)

Guys please. A gain is just a multiplication with a number and can't be "transparent". In can be wrong, but this is rarely the case and computers tend to get this right.


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## Divico (May 19, 2018)

chrisboy said:


> Guys please. A gain is just a multiplication with a number and can't be "transparent". In can be wrong, but this is rarely the case and computers tend to get this right.


Totally agree on this. Trim gain is usually totally transparent. A couple of people claim that there are rounding issues and therefor normalisation is bad stuff but imo thats not the case.

The question is why do you want to increase the gain?
If its for monitoring than turn up the volume on your interface.

Is it for rendering than throw in a limiter and bring down the threshold.
As long as it doesnt do any gain reduction and the limiter is not meant to do coloration (hardware simulations are programmed to do this) it is transparent. 

Normally when I render a track to send it to someone I use a limiter with -0,5dB ceiling and lower the threshold to see a little bit of GR on the loudest part of the track.

If you want to be tottaly safe from clipping make sure your limiter offers intersample peak detection


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## storyteller (May 19, 2018)

Blue Cat Audio has a full suite of free plugins which includes a gain plugin. https://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Bundle_FreewarePack/


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## paularthur (May 19, 2018)

when adding electronic elements Invisible Limiter is great...


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## Soundhound (May 19, 2018)

Thanks all! If all I'm wanting to do is raise or lower the volume on the master bus, and be able to switch the level just by engaging and disengaging a plugin, any reason to not use the Gain plug in Logic? Would a limiter, or some other choice be better/more transparent perhaps?


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## AlexRuger (May 19, 2018)

Just use Gain. It'll be fine.


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## fixxer49 (May 19, 2018)

Soundhound said:


> Would a limiter, or some other choice be better/more transparent perhaps?


anything but straight gain will be *less transparent*, and will be compressing the audio signal. Depending on how much gain reduction you use with a limiter, you may or may not be able to hear much of a difference, if any, in which case the sound may be acceptable to you. Listen to @AlexRuger above.


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## RiffWraith (May 19, 2018)

chrisboy said:


> A gain is just a multiplication with a number and can't be "transparent".



That statement is a contradiction 

If you are just multiplying numbers to increase or decrease the gain without otherwise affecting the audio, that IS "transparent". It's when the audio is affected in someway that it is not "transparent".

Cheers.


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## ceemusic (May 19, 2018)

You can also use a VU meter's trim such as Klanghelm's VUMT or PSP Triple Meter to gain stage. Gives you added flexibility as well.


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## Nmargiotta (May 19, 2018)

AlexRuger said:


> Just use Gain. It'll be fine.


Logic gain all the way. I use it often. It does just what is says it does without any “color”.


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## Soundhound (May 20, 2018)

Thanks again, all. It's Logic's Gain plug for me. Appreciate it!


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## Divico (May 20, 2018)

fixxer49 said:


> anything but straight gain will be *less transparent*, and will be compressing the audio signal. Depending on how much gain reduction you use with a limiter, you may or may not be able to hear much of a difference, if any, in which case the sound may be acceptable to you. Listen to @AlexRuger above.


Not true. As long as a compressor/limiter doesnt apply GR and is not constructed to introduce signal coloration it WILL NOT be any different when pulling a fader .

Back to topic. Use whatever you want. Setting gain is a basic task and whatever tool you use will be fine, unless it is a coloration plugin.


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## fixxer49 (May 20, 2018)

Divico said:


> Not true. As long as a compressor/limiter doesnt apply GR and is not constructed to introduce signal coloration it WILL NOT be any different when pulling a fader .


fair point.

but I don't know why someone would use a limiter if they're not purposely trying to compress/GR an audio signal, however minutely and however "uncolored" that limiter may be? if you're changing the dynamics of a signal, you're changing the integrity of the original signal, no? Even if it's [generally] imperceptible.
ok... back to topic.


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## Polkasound (May 20, 2018)

Soundhound said:


> Thanks all! If all I'm wanting to do is raise or lower the volume on the master bus, and be able to switch the level just by engaging and disengagihttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_warng a plugin, any reason to not use the Gain plug in Logic? Would a limiter, or some other choice be better/more transparent perhaps?



I think your use of the term "gain" may have thrown people off, because gain and volume are not the same thing to audio engineers. If I'm not mistaken, you're simply looking for a way to adjust the volume of the music without moving the master fader so that your clients will get mixes of varying volumes, yet never exceed 0db. A mastering limiter (a limiter that's specifically designed _not_ to add color/saturation) is perfect for that application. There are a LOT of them out there, but the only two I've ever used are Waves L1 Ultramaximizer and IK Multimedia Stealth Limiter. The IK limiter is completely imperceptible to me, so I use it on 100% of my projects when mixing.



Soundhound said:


> Maybe blasphemy to do this?



Whether or not it's "blasphemous" is open to interpretation, but I think that depends more on how the limiter is used. I've had to use mastering limiters for years to compete in the loudness wars over the radio. I regard a mastering limiter as a tool of the trade.


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## Divico (May 20, 2018)

fixxer49 said:


> fair point.
> 
> but I don't know why someone would use a limiter if they're not purposely trying to compress/GR an audio signal, however minutely and however "uncolored" that limiter may be? if you're changing the dynamics of a signal, you're changing the integrity of the original signal, no? Even if it's [generally] imperceptible.
> ok... back to topic.


Totally agree. I like to put a limiter on my bus before rendering. Of cause I apply a bit of GR.
BUT, Id say that having I limiter on the master is always a good idea even if not squashing your sound.
WHY? Because it gives you safety. If your signal should go a bit to high even on a singel transient it will avoid clipping.
It is also good for over safety reasons if a plugin should go bananas and give you a loud spike a limiter and can help to protect you and your system.


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## pderbidge (May 20, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> I think your use of the term "gain" may have thrown people off, because gain and volume are not the same thing to audio engineers. If I'm not mistaken, you're simply looking for a way to adjust the volume of the music without moving the master fader so that your clients will get mixes of varying volumes, yet never exceed 0db. A mastering limiter (a limiter that's specifically designed _not_ to add color/saturation) is perfect for that application. There are a LOT of them out there, but the only two I've ever used are Waves L1 Ultramaximizer and IK Multimedia Stealth Limiter. The IK limiter is completely imperceptible to me, so I use it on 100% of my projects when mixing.
> 
> 
> 
> Whether or not it's "blasphemous" is open to interpretation, but I think that depends more on how the limiter is used. I've had to use mastering limiters for years to compete in the loudness wars over the radio. I regard a mastering limiter as a tool of the trade.


Exactly, every mix engineer I know will use a Limiter on the Master for the purpose of rendering a mix for a client who doesn't understand why the mix sounds so quiet compared to what they hear on the radio. Once the Mix goes to Mastering Engineer though then the limiter comes off. If I were trying to give a client an example of a mix before it was mastered I would use the most transparent limiter I could find. Limiter no 6 is very good and it's free, but might be a bit intimidating at first. https://vladgsound.wordpress.com/plugins/limiter6/


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## Divico (May 20, 2018)

Limiter 6 has indeed good review, though its not that easy to use.
I like to use this guy which is free and can also manage surround if needed
Unlimited: http://sonic.supermaailma.net/plugins
By enabling true peak the limiter reacts also to inter sample peaks.
There are also other great plugins there like the transpire (transient shaper)


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## fixxer49 (May 20, 2018)

Divico said:


> Totally agree. I like to put a limiter on my bus before rendering. Of cause I apply a bit of GR.
> BUT, Id say that having I limiter on the master is always a good idea even if not squashing your sound.
> WHY? Because it gives you safety. If your signal should go a bit to high even on a singel transient it will avoid clipping.
> It is also good for over safety reasons if a plugin should go bananas and give you a loud spike a limiter and can help to protect you and your system.


I am in full agreement with all of this.


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## vintagevibe (May 20, 2018)

chrisboy said:


> Guys please. A gain is just a multiplication with a number and can't be "transparent". In can be wrong, but this is rarely the case and computers tend to get this right.



If thats all that needs to be considered then no amount of processing can ever cause a mix to sound anything other than “transparent”. This, of course, is not true. People are usually refering to overly squashed dynamics when talking about transparency with regards to limiters. I frequently hear a semantic detour like this in these types of threads.


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## pderbidge (May 20, 2018)

Divico said:


> Not true. As long as a compressor/limiter doesnt apply GR and is not constructed to introduce signal coloration it WILL NOT be any different when pulling a fader .
> 
> Back to topic. Use whatever you want. Setting gain is a basic task and whatever tool you use will be fine, unless it is a coloration plugin.



Limiters and Compressors "always" apply gain reduction unless you set it to do basically nothing to the signal so in that case it's not applying GR but then it's also doing "nothing" and there is no point to using it unless you want it to color the sound which some limiters will do by just being turned on. This is exactly what Compressors and limiters do- they apply GR by squashing the signal at where you set it. The slope and rate and way it squashes the signal is dependent on the limiter and compressor. Some give you more control than others to tailor how it reacts. If you use a Peak Limiter for example and set it to just take care of the peaks that might happen intermittently then you may not notice the effects of the limiter but it is still in fact applying gain reduction (squashing) to those peaks, but that also allows you to perhaps turn up your mix a little louder than you normally could without distorting. Pulling down the fader in your DAW or using a Gain VST like the one from Blue cat audio to do this just turns down the sound and does not squash the signal so it is not doing the same thing as a limiter.


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## Divico (May 21, 2018)

pderbidge said:


> Limiters and Compressors "always" apply gain reduction unless you set it to do basically nothing to the signal so in that case it's not applying GR but then it's also doing "nothing" and there is no point to using it unless you want it to color the sound which some limiters will do by just being turned on. This is exactly what Compressors and limiters do- they apply GR by squashing the signal at where you set it. The slope and rate and way it squashes the signal is dependent on the limiter and compressor. Some give you more control than others to tailor how it reacts. If you use a Peak Limiter for example and set it to just take care of the peaks that might happen intermittently then you may not notice the effects of the limiter but it is still in fact applying gain reduction (squashing) to those peaks, but that also allows you to perhaps turn up your mix a little louder than you normally could without distorting. Pulling down the fader in your DAW or using a Gain VST like the one from Blue cat audio to do this just turns down the sound and does not squash the signal so it is not doing the same thing as a limiter.


Thats exactly what I said


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## pderbidge (May 21, 2018)

Divico said:


> Thats exactly what I said


Lol. I was going to add the question "is that what you meant?" Instead of short and to the point I seem to have to take the long way around. As you were.


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## Divico (May 21, 2018)

pderbidge said:


> Lol. I was going to add the question "is that what you meant?" Instead of short and to the point I seem to have to take the long way around. As you were.


Yeah maybe you misunderstood. To clearify things I later added the safety aspect of placing a limiter on you masterbus without using it intentionally.


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## rrichard63 (May 21, 2018)

Soundhound said:


> Thanks all! If all I'm wanting to do is raise or lower the volume on the master bus, and be able to switch the level just by engaging and disengaging a plugin, any reason to not use the Gain plug in Logic? Would a limiter, or some other choice be better/more transparent perhaps?


As far as I can tell, Soundhound wasn't asking about gain reduction in the sense that the term is being used in this discussion of compression and limiting (as interesting as that discussion is in its own right). He was asking about what someone referred to a few posts back as level or volume adjustment.

Soundhound, am I right?


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## pderbidge (May 21, 2018)

rrichard63 said:


> As far as I can tell, Soundhound wasn't asking about gain reduction in the sense that the term is being used in this discussion of compression and limiting (as interesting as that discussion is in its own right). He was asking about what someone referred to a few posts back as level or volume adjustment.
> 
> Soundhound, am I right?



Took me a few reads but I think you're right. Sounds like he just wants to toggle between two levels. The only issue I can foresee is if the higher level causes distortion with his studio speakers. If that starts to happen then a peak limiter would be the only thing that works and should have little adverse impact if setup correctly.


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## Soundhound (May 22, 2018)

Yes, exactly, thanks! Sorry I've been in deadline hell...

I'm just trying to find a way to be able to toggle between different levels on the output bus without touching the fader. Sorry about using the term 'gain', I see that's caused a lot of confusion, my apologies!

The simplest way I thought of being able to do it was the Logic Gain plugin, but I wanted to see if there were any thoughts about that introducing color to the signal, and if so, if there might be cleaner ways to do it.





pderbidge said:


> Took me a few reads but I think you're right. Sounds like he just wants to toggle between two levels. The only issue I can foresee is if the higher level causes distortion with his studio speakers. If that starts to happen then a peak limiter would be the only thing that works and should have little adverse impact if setup correctly.


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## pderbidge (May 22, 2018)

Soundhound said:


> Yes, exactly, thanks! Sorry I've been in deadline hell...
> 
> I'm just trying to find a way to be able to toggle between different levels on the output bus without touching the fader. Sorry about using the term 'gain', I see that's caused a lot of confusion, my apologies!
> 
> The simplest way I thought of being able to do it was the Logic Gain plugin, but I wanted to see if there were any thoughts about that introducing color to the signal, and if so, if there might be cleaner ways to do it.


A gain plugin should not add color to the signal unless it's designed to emulate some analogue console. The only issue to be aware of is if you have peaks above zero db then you might distort or clip your speakers. In the digital domain there is technically headroom way above zero db but since we use digital to analogue converters(aka your soundcard) to be able to playback our music on amps and speakers (which still use analogue components) then we still have to mix to zero db or below. So if one of your gains is allowing peaks above zero db and you hear it distorting/clipping your speakers then you'll want to replace that gain plugin with a peak limiter. If the signal is going above zero db and your monitors aren't being distorted by it then I suppose you are fine as long as you aren't actually mixing to that level.Make sense?


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## Soundhound (May 22, 2018)

It does indeed, thanks. It's really just to be able to have peaks hit at -.3db (or whatever) quickly and easily, without changing processing arrangements, fader etc. 




pderbidge said:


> A gain plugin should not add color to the signal unless it's designed to emulate some analogue console. The only issue to be aware of is if you have peaks above zero db then you might distort or clip your speakers. In the digital domain there is technically headroom way above zero db but since we use digital to analogue converters(aka your soundcard) to be able to playback our music on amps and speakers (which still use analogue components) then we still have to mix to zero db or below. So if one of your gains is allowing peaks above zero db and you hear it distorting/clipping your speakers then you'll want to replace that gain plugin with a peak limiter. If the signal is going above zero db and your monitors aren't being distorted by it then I suppose you are fine as long as you aren't actually mixing to that level.Make sense?


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## pderbidge (May 22, 2018)

Soundhound said:


> It does indeed, thanks. It's really just to be able to have peaks hit at -.3db (or whatever) quickly and easily, without changing processing arrangements, fader etc.


Actually makes perfect sense. I get why you'd want to do that.


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