# Solo woodwinds for orchestral music?



## Michael Stibor (Jun 11, 2019)

Before I pull the plug on Berlin Woodwinds Exp B, is there anything else I should be considering for expressive solo woodwinds? It will primarily be used for quiet orchestral passages (non 'epic') so it needs to sit well among my other programs (mostly CSS and CSB). 

I'm currently using VSL SE's winds, and while they're ok, they're not great. Especially the oboe. I also have the 8dio oboe and flute, and again, I'm just not sold on them.


Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## Robo Rivard (Jun 11, 2019)

I have Fluffy Audio Woodwinds, and they sound pretty good.
https://fluffyaudio.com/shop/solo-woodwinds-bundle/


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## dasbin (Jun 11, 2019)

From my research so far I think the Berlin expansions are likely the best-sounding solo winds, but be aware (in case you're not already) they don't have any dynamic layers. The dynamics control is just a volume knob.


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## RogiervG (Jun 11, 2019)

+1 for the berlin woodwinds expansion b and c. (the oboe and cor anglais (english horn) are so beautifully sampled and scripted... amazing. The flutes/clarinets/bassoons too, mind you!.. but these two stand out)


Some others that are considered good for solo work: the VSL woodwinds (non SE version for performance legato patches), and the 8dio claire series. Audio modeling SWAM woodwinds too

And ofcourse once it's released: the cinematic Studio Woodwinds. (can be really soon) 

Do note though, playing sampled solo woods is usually harder than brass. Because of woods being more delicate in sound character (aka more detailed/refined). So you often need to ride the CC's (dynamics, vibrato, articulations etc) more to get a realistic sounding melody out of them.

What do you not like about the woods you have exactly?


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## Ben (Jun 11, 2019)

mikefrommontreal said:


> I'm currently using VSL SE's winds, and while they're ok, they're not great. Especially the oboe. I also have the 8dio oboe and flute, and again, I'm just not sold on them.


Check out the Synchronized Special Editions! The upgrade price is really good and you will get a lot of new content on top of the remastered instruments.


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## Consona (Jun 11, 2019)

For runs I use Auddict solo winds, very fast and agile legato, very warm and pleasing sound. The dynamic range is not super wide, but it does the job totally fine most of the time. For vivacious clarinet lines I also use Embertone's Herring, it's really good.

Otherwise I have CineWinds Pro and Fluffy Flute which fill the rest of the woodwind section very well.


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 11, 2019)

dasbin said:


> From my research so far I think the Berlin expansions are likely the best-sounding solo winds, but be aware (in case you're not already) they don't have any dynamic layers. The dynamics control is just a volume knob.


How is it in real world applications? The one dynamic layer things concerns me.


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## RogiervG (Jun 11, 2019)

mikefrommontreal said:


> How is it in real world applications? The one dynamic layer things concerns me.


You can Listen to many demos/reviews on youtube to figure that out. 
Because that can only be judged by you.. Your workflow and sound character requirements are ultimately yours.
Many people like the vsl woods, you not so much e.g. That's ofcourse fine.. but it proofs, that your judgement might be different from others. (not saying theirs is better or worse, just (potentially) different)


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 11, 2019)

RogiervG said:


> +1 for the berlin woodwinds expansion b and c. (the oboe and cor anglais (english horn) are so beautifully sampled and scripted... amazing. The flutes/clarinets/bassoons too, mind you!.. but these two stand out)
> 
> 
> Some others that are considered good for solo work: the VSL woodwinds (non SE version for performance legato patches), and the 8dio claire series. Audio modeling SWAM woodwinds too
> ...



The legato transitions. They're not smooth imo. 

I would love to wait for CSW, but a) who knows when that will be release and B) there's no guarantee that it will be appropriate. I trust the cinematic stuff, but not everything works in every situation. For example, the solo trumpet in CSB to my ears is a little over the top to be a true solo instrument.


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 11, 2019)

Ben said:


> Check out the Synchronized Special Editions! The upgrade price is really good and you will get a lot of new content on top of the remastered instruments.


Did they fix the legato transitions by any chance? I find them decent for the bassoon/contrabassoon. But too "clicky" for the higher range winds.


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 11, 2019)

RogiervG said:


> You can Listen to many demos/reviews on youtube to figure that out.
> Because that can only be judged by you.. Your workflow and sound character requirements are ultimately yours.
> Many people like the vsl woods, you not so much e.g. That's ofcourse fine.. but it proofs, that your judgement might be different from others. (not saying theirs is better or worse, just (potentially) different)


For sure. Unfortunately there's not a lot of decent demos out there on them, but I was "sold" after watching Chris Siu's recent YouTube demos. Just making sure.


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## RogiervG (Jun 11, 2019)

mikefrommontreal said:


> The legato transitions. They're not smooth imo.
> 
> I would love to wait for CSW, but a) who knows when that will be release and B) there's no guarantee that it will be appropriate. I trust the cinematic stuff, but not everything works in every situation. For example, the solo trumpet in CSB to my ears is a little over the top to be a true solo instrument.



Not smooth? not sure i follow..
they sound like the real thing in terms of very realistic "smoothness". (listen to recordings of a real oboe or english horn.. they are "not smooth" either)
Unless you are after the polished modernish hollywood sound, then indeed it's not smooth.

Maybe i did not understand your comment, if that's the case.. please elaborate


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## ism (Jun 11, 2019)

There’s no silver bullet here, but

- Spitfire symphonic winds - have a surprising amount of lyrical range on most instruments (with a couple of exceptions like the clarinet,). Not as lyrical as BWW Exp B - unless your notion of lyrical involves dynamic layers, which is the biggest limitation of exp B/C. So there is a sweet spot here. And i’d count SSW as probably the best ‘all round’ library imo (except for the Cl). For low instruments like the bass clarinet, cor anglais, contra bassoon, I find them wonderfully lyrical, to the point that I feel no need for Berlin exp c.

- 8dio Claire - not much good for general purpose, but sometimes they just really hit a sweet spot like nothing else can. Hard to work with, uneven, wonky stereo image, but there are moments when, provided you work with the performances baked into the dynamic arcs (a major caveat), they really shine. Dynamic layers are limited, and uneven. But sometimes nice.

If I had to do it over again, I’d have started with SWW, then augmented them with Berlin exp B, then added a few of the Claire - especially the piccolo, alto flute, and oboe (assuming a good sale).

The Fluffy clarinet is in a class of its own though. Particularly in its range of shorts, and the quality of its dynamic layers. For certain types of lines, I don’t think anything can beat it. (Basically I don’t think it’s possible to have too many clarinets)


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## RogiervG (Jun 11, 2019)

Spitfire Symphonic woodwinds is also very good indeed. Still...depending on the instruments needed.. for oboe and english horn i find the expansion b from berlin more realistic/expressive/lyrical out of the box.. even with the single dynamic layer.

But ism is right.. SSW is a good alrounder woods library. (warm sounding, even close mics) and versatile in articulations. (although it has rough edges here and there in scripting and dynamics)


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 11, 2019)

RogiervG said:


> Not smooth? not sure i follow..
> they sound like the real thing in terms of very realistic "smoothness". (listen to recordings of a real oboe or english horn.. they are "not smooth" either)
> Unless you are after the polished modernish hollywood sound, then indeed it's not smooth.
> 
> Maybe i did not understand your comment, if that's the case.. please elaborate



Maybe "smooth" isn't the right word. Perhaps unrealistic is better. And not to an incredible degree. I still use them (except for the oboe which I find very harsh), but I'm shopping for the next step up.


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## RogiervG (Jun 11, 2019)

mikefrommontreal said:


> Maybe "smooth" isn't the right word. Perhaps unrealistic is better. And not to an incredible degree. I still use them (except for the oboe which I find very harsh), but I'm shopping for the next step up.



Wait... are we talking about expansion B? or VSL se woods? or the 8dio?
Reading back i start getting confused... 

I was replying from the expansion B standpoint... i guess you did not hehe


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 11, 2019)

RogiervG said:


> Wait... are we talking about expansion B? or VSL se woods? or the 8dio?
> Reading back i start getting confused...
> 
> I was replying from the expansion B standpoint... i guess you did not hehe


Haha, no I was referring to VSL SE's winds. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Ben (Jun 11, 2019)

I can render something quick if you want. Just send me the midi file.


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 11, 2019)

Ben said:


> I can render something quick if you want. Just send me the midi file.



Perfect, thank you. I will take you up on that. 

Btw, am I understanding correctly that you need an SSD drive to install it on?


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## Ben (Jun 11, 2019)

mikefrommontreal said:


> Btw, am I understanding correctly that you need an SSD drive to install it on?


For best performance, yes. But the Synchronized instruments should work just fine if you increase the sample preload size. For the Synchron Piano and the Synchron Percussion you should use a SSD to avoid drop-outs and eternal loading times


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 11, 2019)

I also recommend the Fluffy Audio WW. I also love Spitfire Studio Woodwinds, I find them very expressive.


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## PaulieDC (Jun 11, 2019)

This is just a side thought, because I'm not even at the stage where I could play a convincing WW line, still studying string articulations. I have a course by Groove3.com called Orchestral Library Toolbox which is two German guys (w/voiceover translator) doing an 11-hour course on orchestration with Cubase. It's insanely good for new guys like me. At one point they play in some WW lines using I think VSL and/or Cinesamples woodwinds, can't remember. The WW lines were first played on a keyboard (on purpose) and they sounded good but you were still convincing yourself it was real. Then they showed what it sounds like with a breath controller where you blow in but still choose the notes on the keyboard, and THAT sounded much more realistic, using the same library. Then they pulled out the Akai EWI and handed it to someone who can play a woodwind and it was like a real instrument, off the chart. No change in library. if anything, once I get to woodwinds in my late-night study which is moving at glacier speed, I'm going to at least consider the breath controller, even THAT seems to make a huge difference over keys. Having said that I'm quite sure there are seasoned composers who have the feel of the expression slider down so well that a breath controller isn't necessary. I was just amazed what a difference it seemed to make and might be something to consider if you're in Freshman year like me.


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## ism (Jun 11, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I also recommend the Fluffy Audio WW. I also love Spitfire Studio Woodwinds, I find them very expressive.



Could you point me to any examples of the Studio woodwinds going into lyrical territory? 

My sense so far has been that SSW is better at lyrical lines that SStW.


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 11, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I also recommend the Fluffy Audio WW. I also love Spitfire Studio Woodwinds, I find them very expressive.


 I actually have Spitfire Studio woodwinds, I forgot to mention it because while it's decent for shorts and effects, I personally don't think it's very useable for lead lines. But I will definitely look into Fluffy Audio Woodwinds!


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## purple (Jun 11, 2019)

Unless you're really hurrying, I'd just wait for CSW. They're hoping for a late 2019 release, so around the same time as CSB last year. As a bassoonist and saxophonist myself, I can't say that any of the woodwind libraries stand out to me as being "the one to go for" for any specific aspects. If I had the money I'd invest in the berlin series woodwinds and/or expansions, but for now I'd rather wait and see what we get from CS.


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## Bluemount Score (Jun 12, 2019)

purple said:


> but for now I'd rather wait and see what we get from CS.



So much pressure for Alex, so many people with high expectations (not excluding myself :D )

I'm currently using the NI Symphony Series Solo Woodwinds. Can I recommend them? Hm, not really when you don't own Komplete Ultimate. Full Price is too expensive imo. But you gotta work with what you own.
Also I'm missing a piccolo. Makes me sad.


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 12, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I also love Spitfire Studio Woodwinds, I find them very expressive.



I've also gotten some nice use from the Pro version of that library, including some great lead lines (I'm not entirely wild about the shorts but I've found uses for them already in four different compositions since buying the library so that says something). 

It's interesting though, when I went back and edited some of my old projects the Hein sounded and behaved quite well (so well that I really didn't have to replace them with the SStWW). 

I have noticed also that SStWW Pro are significantly easier to mix than the Hein...in fact, I've noticed more than a few members here selling their Hein woodwinds bizarrely fast, and now I understand why. The Hein wws are a library that gives what you put into it, and you have to put the time and focus into those instruments, otherwise you're going to have a way-too-up-front-and-flat sound. 

So, at this point I can no longer rec the Hein for people basically starting out. They're an excellent library I've gotten a LOT of use out of, however they're concurrently more for those whom already have good engineering chops (even moreso than the EWH series). You have to put in the work and patience to get an outstanding sound...but you'll be happy once you get there.

So, I recommend noobs (with extra bucks laying around) to pick up the Berlin woodwinds first, as they're easiest to deal with out of the box. Libs like SStWWs would be a great choice, too (any discomfort with those dry samples can be greatly eased by getting nice and acquainted with the mics). But forget going with the cheaper, Core version of the Spitfire, as that can be aggravatingly limiting and...well, just don't sound as good imo.


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## jaketanner (Jun 12, 2019)

purple said:


> As a bassoonist and saxophonist myself, I can't say that any of the woodwind libraries stand out to me as being "the one to go for" for any specific aspects.



have you checked out 8Dio's Claire woodwinds? When I compare the sound of them to the Orchestral Tools series by David Newman, the tone is quite similar.


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## purple (Jun 12, 2019)

jaketanner said:


> have you checked out 8Dio's Claire woodwinds? When I compare the sound of them to the Orchestral Tools series by David Newman, the tone is quite similar.


Yeah I think the tone of the instruments from 8dio is similar but to me it just doesn't seem to be as consistent or smooth. It's a bit disjointed mostly, and although I actually quite like their tone I don't think it can be quite as convincing. To each their own, especially with solo woodwind libraries, but that's my two cents. I don't have the 8dio libraries so I can't speak fully on them but I do remember the trailers and demos leaving a fairly positive impression on me.


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## jaketanner (Jun 12, 2019)

purple said:


> Yeah I think the tone of the instruments from 8dio is similar but to me it just doesn't seem to be as consistent or smooth. It's a bit disjointed mostly, and although I actually quite like their tone I don't think it can be quite as convincing. To each their own, especially with solo woodwind libraries, but that's my two cents. I don't have the 8dio libraries so I can't speak fully on them but I do remember the trailers and demos leaving a fairly positive impression on me.



I haven’t used them much yet, but things like this is subjective. Compared to the tone of SStW it’s a step above. I have both. What I actually like better on the Claire, is their second tone. So they have a main, then a different tone switchable by a button. What I’m really waiting for is their Century winds. Should be pretty awesome once they’re released.


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 12, 2019)

purple said:


> Unless you're really hurrying, I'd just wait for CSW. They're hoping for a late 2019 release, so around the same time as CSB last year. As a bassoonist and saxophonist myself, I can't say that any of the woodwind libraries stand out to me as being "the one to go for" for any specific aspects. If I had the money I'd invest in the berlin series woodwinds and/or expansions, but for now I'd rather wait and see what we get from CS.


Either way, I'll likely get CSW when it comes out. In the mean time, there is music to be made, and I'm not sure I can hold out for the end of the year at the earliest. I'm submitting a project this Saturday and am expecting a significant amount of cash from it, and I always like to invest some of it back into gear or libraries which is why I'm looking now. But yeah, I feel like I'm in woodwind limbo waiting for CSW.


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## Consona (Jun 12, 2019)

PaulieDC said:


> This is just a side thought, because I'm not even at the stage where I could play a convincing WW line, still studying string articulations. I have a course by Groove3.com called Orchestral Library Toolbox which is two German guys (w/voiceover translator) doing an 11-hour course on orchestration with Cubase. It's insanely good for new guys like me. At one point they play in some WW lines using I think VSL and/or Cinesamples woodwinds, can't remember. The WW lines were first played on a keyboard (on purpose) and they sounded good but you were still convincing yourself it was real. Then they showed what it sounds like with a breath controller where you blow in but still choose the notes on the keyboard, and THAT sounded much more realistic, using the same library. Then they pulled out the Akai EWI and handed it to someone who can play a woodwind and it was like a real instrument, off the chart. No change in library. if anything, once I get to woodwinds in my late-night study which is moving at glacier speed, I'm going to at least consider the breath controller, even THAT seems to make a huge difference over keys. Having said that I'm quite sure there are seasoned composers who have the feel of the expression slider down so well that a breath controller isn't necessary. I was just amazed what a difference it seemed to make and might be something to consider if you're in Freshman year like me.


This is very interesting. So basically, the libraries are good already, it's all about our skills to create believable lines.


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## purple (Jun 12, 2019)

PaulieDC said:


> This is just a side thought, because I'm not even at the stage where I could play a convincing WW line, still studying string articulations. I have a course by Groove3.com called Orchestral Library Toolbox which is two German guys (w/voiceover translator) doing an 11-hour course on orchestration with Cubase. It's insanely good for new guys like me. At one point they play in some WW lines using I think VSL and/or Cinesamples woodwinds, can't remember. The WW lines were first played on a keyboard (on purpose) and they sounded good but you were still convincing yourself it was real. Then they showed what it sounds like with a breath controller where you blow in but still choose the notes on the keyboard, and THAT sounded much more realistic, using the same library. Then they pulled out the Akai EWI and handed it to someone who can play a woodwind and it was like a real instrument, off the chart. No change in library. if anything, once I get to woodwinds in my late-night study which is moving at glacier speed, I'm going to at least consider the breath controller, even THAT seems to make a huge difference over keys. Having said that I'm quite sure there are seasoned composers who have the feel of the expression slider down so well that a breath controller isn't necessary. I was just amazed what a difference it seemed to make and might be something to consider if you're in Freshman year like me.


Yes breath controllers make the process a lot faster, but _no_ library is anywhere close to the real thing, at least not yet i guess.


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## Ryan Fultz (Jun 12, 2019)

I'm gonna second the claire series by 8dio with a caveat:

These are great soloists, but blending into something and not sounding like a featured instrument is asking them to perform in their weakest capacity. 

Also, you kind of have to let them guide you a bit as there are little quirks that you have to roll with if you want to get the most out of them.

If you are the type of person that could give someone some music and be excited when they add their personality to it then you'll love this collection. If the slightest inflection outside of what you envisioned bothers you then you should avoid this library, there are lots of little inflections and slides into notes that if you role with give a great performance, but if you can't go with the flow you'll find nothing but frustration.


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## Ben (Jun 17, 2019)

@mikefrommontreal I've created a mock-up with the Synchronized SE collection and posted it here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/synchron-ized-special-edition.82751/page-5#post-4402028
From ~1:15 you can hear the woodwinds. (I used a breath controller for this)


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## constaneum (Jun 17, 2019)

Meetyhtan said:


> So much pressure for Alex, so many people with high expectations (not excluding myself :D )
> 
> I'm currently using the NI Symphony Series Solo Woodwinds. Can I recommend them? Hm, not really when you don't own Komplete Ultimate. Full Price is too expensive imo. But you gotta work with what you own.
> Also I'm missing a piccolo. Makes me sad.



pressure is good.....so that it'll be a polished product. =)


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## constaneum (Jun 17, 2019)

I'll like to recommend Auddict solo Woodwinds....I particularly like the flute a lot. very beautifully sampled.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jun 17, 2019)

I love how the BWW Exp. B/C winds not only feature beautifully as soloists, but surprisingly don't have too much trouble blending in with the rest of the orchestra when needed. For me, it combines the ideal amount of passion and detail with a good ability to blend.


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## constaneum (Jun 17, 2019)

by the way, sorry about this but i'll like to ask about BWW. How many of you actually load up the individual woodwinds to create woodwinds ensemble? for example, load up flute 1, flute 2 and flute 3 to create flute ensemble a3? Do you find the sound muffled?


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jun 17, 2019)

constaneum said:


> I'll like to recommend Auddict solo Woodwinds....I particularly like the flute a lot. very beautifully sampled.


Do you still use your Berlin Expansion B for solos, or are you now using Auddict?



mikefrommontreal said:


> Either way, I'll likely get CSW when it comes out. In the mean time, there is music to be made, and I'm not sure I can hold out for the end of the year at the earliest. I'm submitting a project this Saturday and am expecting a significant amount of cash from it, and I always like to invest some of it back into gear or libraries which is why I'm looking now. But yeah, I feel like I'm in woodwind limbo waiting for CSW.


Also, I just want to male sure the OP knows Berlin Woodwinds Expansions are almost certainly going on sale this month as part of the Completion Days Sale. Hope you didn't buy it days before it went on discount!


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## constaneum (Jun 17, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Do you still use your Berlin Expansion B for solos, or are you now using Auddict?



I do use Expansion B. Expansion B i mostly use Oboe only. I really love the Oboe, not so on the Flute.


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## jaketanner (Jun 17, 2019)

constaneum said:


> by the way, sorry about this but i'll like to ask about BWW. How many of you actually load up the individual woodwinds to create woodwinds ensemble? for example, load up flute 1, flute 2 and flute 3 to create flute ensemble a3? Do you find the sound muffled?



Regardless of which library, combining solo instruments does not make for an ensemble sound. There is a certain tone that's only had when more than one is playing at a time. You might be able to fake it, but not the same. So I'd say to stick with any ensemble patch when you want them, and solos for first chairs or when you actually need a solo.


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## constaneum (Jun 17, 2019)

jaketanner said:


> Regardless of which library, combining solo instruments does not make for an ensemble sound. There is a certain tone that's only had when more than one is playing at a time. You might be able to fake it, but not the same. So I'd say to stick with any ensemble patch when you want them, and solos for first chairs or when you actually need a solo.



So Berlin Woodwinds wont be able to create a nice ensemble patch eh. Then i'll wait for CSW.


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 17, 2019)

Ben said:


> @mikefrommontreal I've created a mock-up with the Synchronized SE collection and posted it here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/synchron-ized-special-edition.82751/page-5#post-4402028
> From ~1:15 you can hear the woodwinds. (I used a breath controller for this)


The trumpet sounds respectable for once. Sorry i never sent you the clip. I figured at that price, I'm just going to throw "caution to the wind" and buy it.


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 17, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Do you still use your Berlin Expansion B for solos, or are you now using Auddict?
> 
> 
> Also, I just want to male sure the OP knows Berlin Woodwinds Expansions are almost certainly going on sale this month as part of the Completion Days Sale. Hope you didn't buy it days before it went on discount!


Haha, thanks! that was thoughtful of you. No, I had a feeling that it might be part of it, so I'm waiting to see.


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## borisb2 (Jun 17, 2019)

Robo Rivard said:


> I have Fluffy Audio Woodwinds, and they sound pretty good.
> https://fluffyaudio.com/shop/solo-woodwinds-bundle/



just listened to their demos .. the woodwinds really sound stunning. Do you know which strings Phil Chapavich Temnitikul was using on "You Could Make Me Smile"? Venice strings? but it sounds smoother .. absolutely stunning as well (especially after 0.58)


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## hypnotize (Jun 17, 2019)

Not really for orchestral work, but pay attention to WestGate Sounds. They have such a lively and distinctive sound. It is also dry and easy to process, I often use these woodwinds in orchestral music.


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## constaneum (Jun 18, 2019)

borisb2 said:


> just listened to their demos .. the woodwinds really sound stunning. Do you know which strings Phil Chapavich Temnitikul was using on "You Could Make Me Smile"? Venice strings? but it sounds smoother .. absolutely stunning as well (especially after 0.58)



Venice strings havent even been released at that time, right ?


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## borisb2 (Jun 18, 2019)

not sure .. also, the venice strings demos sound a tiny bit more metallic/harsh .. in that mentioned ww-demo the strings really sound almost .. perfect


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## Pedro Camacho (Jun 18, 2019)

Be sure to check stuff from @Strezov / @StrezovSampling ! Fabulous woodwinds there.

https://www.strezov-sampling.com/products/16/Woodwinds.html


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## jaketanner (Jun 18, 2019)

constaneum said:


> So Berlin Woodwinds wont be able to create a nice ensemble patch eh. Then i'll wait for CSW.



My experience has been that solo instruments sound a bit separated. if you want an a3 patch, it needs to be recorded as one. But BWW are great from what I’ve heard, don’t own them. But it can be faked with reverb and perhaps BWW blend well together. But I’m general there is a difference....slight as it may be.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jun 18, 2019)

mikefrommontreal said:


> Haha, thanks! that was thoughtful of you. No, I had a feeling that it might be part of it, so I'm waiting to see.


I was wondering what @constaneum meant about the flute, and then I came across an old post with some Berlin Woodwind Expansion B audio examples.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/bww-exp-b-flute-testing-mp3.20720/][/AUDIOPLUS]

To my ear, the BWW soloist choke on some of those legato transitions, though maybe that could be finessed with the tweaking of crescendos/decrescendos, as I think it's the sudden attacks that are off. And maybe there have been updates since 2015 that address some of the issues.


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## ism (Jun 18, 2019)

And then this happened 

https://8dio.com/instrument/intimate-studio-woodwinds/


I can’t say that the 8dio intimate strings did much for me, but curious to see if this has any merit in an orchestral context.


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## purple (Jun 18, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I was wondering what @constaneum meant about the flute, and then I came across an old post with some Berlin Woodwind Expansion B audio examples.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/bww-exp-b-flute-testing-mp3.20720/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> ...


Is this really the smoothest it can be? Or is this a quick mockup? Honestly kind of shocked because I've heard some great stuff from people claiming to use BWW.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jun 18, 2019)

purple said:


> Is this really the smoothest it can be? Or is this a quick mockup? Honestly kind of shocked because I've heard some great stuff from people claiming to use BWW.


Make sure to check the original post. It was a live performance, so I think you should take it as a quick mockup. That said, it's an instrument that is made to sound good out of the box and doesn't offer much ability to tweak, as best as I can tell. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is an instrument that just has some lumps in it. Or maybe I'm being too critical? It is rather exposed after all.

EDIT: After some more close listens, I've changed my mind on this. I think the legato transitions are good and I'm generally impressed with the way Berlin WW Exp B sounds.



ism said:


> And then this happened
> https://8dio.com/instrument/intimate-studio-woodwinds/


Not a fan of the buckets of reverb they poured on it. I wish they'd just present the raw instrument in the clear. You know...intimate.


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## constaneum (Jun 18, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Make sure to check the original post. It was a live performance, so I think you should take it as a quick mockup. That said, it's an instrument that is made to sound good out of the box and doesn't offer much ability to tweak, as best as I can tell. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is an instrument that just has some lumps in it. Or maybe I'm being too critical? It is rather exposed after all.
> 
> 
> Not a fan of the buckets of reverb they poured on it. I wish they'd just present the raw instrument in the clear. You know...intimate.



it was indeed a quick mockup. The legato itself is actually quite good but the sound of the flute sampled is a bit not my taste. To me, the flute sounds a bit "depressing" at the lower notes....sound wise, i think Auddict's flute sounds nicer (a bit brighter and more cheerful).


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jun 18, 2019)

PaulieDC said:


> This is just a side thought, because I'm not even at the stage where I could play a convincing WW line, still studying string articulations. I have a course by Groove3.com called Orchestral Library Toolbox which is two German guys (w/voiceover translator) doing an 11-hour course on orchestration with Cubase. It's insanely good for new guys like me. At one point they play in some WW lines using I think VSL and/or Cinesamples woodwinds, can't remember. The WW lines were first played on a keyboard (on purpose) and they sounded good but you were still convincing yourself it was real. Then they showed what it sounds like with a breath controller where you blow in but still choose the notes on the keyboard, and THAT sounded much more realistic, using the same library. Then they pulled out the Akai EWI and handed it to someone who can play a woodwind and it was like a real instrument, off the chart. No change in library. if anything, once I get to woodwinds in my late-night study which is moving at glacier speed, I'm going to at least consider the breath controller, even THAT seems to make a huge difference over keys. Having said that I'm quite sure there are seasoned composers who have the feel of the expression slider down so well that a breath controller isn't necessary. I was just amazed what a difference it seemed to make and might be something to consider if you're in Freshman year like me.



Got your Toolbox set, but it also gave me the Orchestral Bundle deal.. so got that too :D
Was a steal... then another few vids too!


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jun 19, 2019)

constaneum said:


> it was indeed a quick mockup. The legato itself is actually quite good but the sound of the flute sampled is a bit not my taste. To me, the flute sounds a bit "depressing" at the lower notes....sound wise, i think Auddict's flute sounds nicer (a bit brighter and more cheerful).


Thanks, I understand what you mean now. If Auddict were to offer their flute as a standalone product, I would have my eye on that.


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## Go To 11 (Jun 19, 2019)

Orchestral Tools Solo Woodwinds now on sale!


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## constaneum (Jun 19, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Thanks, I understand what you mean now. If Auddict were to offer their flute as a standalone product, I would have my eye on that.



It started as standalone initially. Once they've released the rest, they became as a bundle.


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## Brian Nowak (Jun 19, 2019)

constaneum said:


> So Berlin Woodwinds wont be able to create a nice ensemble patch eh. Then i'll wait for CSW.



I am currently using BWW Revive. I don't create an ensemble patch by loading up the different instruments together. I load up the instruments on individual tracks and program them individually. This way I can program humanization into them (sometimes you have to make quite a bit of difference between the parts to get them to sound less robotic), EQ, and position them in a way that suits my needs. 

But I do a lot of a2/3 orchestration as I'm currently writing action music and the volume/sound I'm looking for demands it. I think people overthink this stuff way too much. It works fine. Nobody, including my publisher or working professionals who have heard my mockups, have complained about my woodwinds not sounding like a real ensemble patch. 

I'm totally going to buy CSW when it comes out, though. Because ensemble patches, and also just different woodwinds in general. If you aren't in dire need of woodwinds, I wouldn't get BWW until they inevitably do their next sale, which I would think is almost guaranteed. I definitely felt the pang of overspending when it suddenly went 40% off...


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 19, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> I am currently using BWW Revive. I don't create an ensemble patch by loading up the different instruments together. I load up the instruments on individual tracks and program them individually. This way I can program humanization into them (sometimes you have to make quite a bit of difference between the parts to get them to sound less robotic), EQ, and position them in a way that suits my needs.
> 
> But I do a lot of a2/3 orchestration as I'm currently writing action music and the volume/sound I'm looking for demands it. I think people overthink this stuff way too much. It works fine. Nobody, including my publisher or working professionals who have heard my mockups, have complained about my woodwinds not sounding like a real ensemble patch.
> 
> I'm totally going to buy CSW when it comes out, though. Because ensemble patches, and also just different woodwinds in general. If you aren't in dire need of woodwinds, I wouldn't get BWW until they inevitably do their next sale, which I would think is almost guaranteed. I definitely felt the pang of overspending when it suddenly went 40% off...



Bww are the only woodwind libraries I would still buy, and I already have EWHW, Hein, and SStW. I'd love to hear how great they go with the Arks.


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## Brian Nowak (Jun 19, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> Bww are the only woodwind libraries I would still buy, and I already have EWHW, Hein, and SStW. I'd love to hear how great they go with the Arks.



This piece was one of the first things I wrote after picking up a few libraries. It is a combination of BWW Revive, Ark 1 brass, Berlin Percussion and Ark 3 Percussion (mostly Ark 3 percussion), Spitfire concert grand, and CSS.


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## NeonMediaKJT (Jun 19, 2019)

Do the Berlin expansions require a base library? Can someone who owns no Berlin libraries just buy the EXP A and B and they'll work fine?


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## Brian Nowak (Jun 19, 2019)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Do the Berlin expansions require a base library? Can someone who owns no Berlin libraries just buy the EXP A and B and they'll work fine?



None of the expansions are housed within bww. They're all separate instruments with separate folders. You are good to go.


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## NeonMediaKJT (Jun 19, 2019)

Do you know how long the woodwind sale will last?

NVM June 27. I'm blind haha


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## Wally Garten (Jun 19, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Thanks, I understand what you mean now. If Auddict were to offer their flute as a standalone product, I would have my eye on that.





constaneum said:


> It started as standalone initially. Once they've released the rest, they became as a bundle.



Technically, you can still get the flute standalone, but it's quite expensive for a single instrument (100 GBP or 127 USD):

https://www.kontakthub.com/product/MSW-Solo-Flute/

For roughly the same amount of dough you can get one of the Berlin solo packages on sale now or 8dio's new product on intro offer. So... tough sell, to me, unless you just love the sound of it. (In which case, follow your bliss!)


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## constaneum (Jun 19, 2019)

Wally Garten said:


> Technically, you can still get the flute standalone, but it's quite expensive for a single instrument (100 GBP or 127 USD):
> 
> https://www.kontakthub.com/product/MSW-Solo-Flute/
> 
> For roughly the same amount of dough you can get one of the Berlin solo packages on sale now or 8dio's new product on intro offer. So... tough sell, to me, unless you just love the sound of it. (In which case, follow your bliss!)



oh wow. I didn't know about it !! I asked Auddict and they said only bundle. That's why i bought the bundle. Oboe isn't that nicely sampled though. Piccolo certain mic would need to be handled with extra care. Flute, Clarinet and Bassoon seems better in terms of consistency.


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## I like music (Jun 25, 2019)

Infinite Woodwinds is out so worth checking it out for a number of posters here. You might find it does the trick nicely.


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 25, 2019)

I like music said:


> Infinite Woodwinds is out so worth checking it out for a number of posters here. You might find it does the trick nicely.


I listened to the demos. I don't think it's for me.


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## I like music (Jun 25, 2019)

mikefrommontreal said:


> I listened to the demos. I don't think it's for me.



Fair play. Good luck with the search!


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## purple (Jun 25, 2019)

I like music said:


> Infinite Woodwinds is out so worth checking it out for a number of posters here. You might find it does the trick nicely.


To be completely blunt and honest, most of the instruments in those demos sounded like cheap synth patches to me. I think I'll hold out for CSW on this one.


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 25, 2019)

purple said:


> To be completely blunt and honest, most of the instruments in those demos sounded like cheap synth patches to me. I think I'll hold out for CSW on this one.


I felt that a bit too. The opening of Rite of Spring sounded more like a harmonica to me than a bassoon. I didn't continue after that.

I wish we had more of an indication when CSW was coming out. It's hard to hold out for an undetermined amount of time.


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## purple (Jun 25, 2019)

mikefrommontreal said:


> I felt that a bit too. The opening of Rite of Spring sounded more like a harmonica to me than a bassoon. I didn't continue after that.
> 
> I wish we had more of an indication when CSW was coming out. It's hard to hold out for an undetermined amount of time.


I've been assuming Q4 this year, same time as CSB, because I read somewhere that the actual samples for CSB and CSW were recorded around the same time. If that is the case, then we should expect an announcement around November as that's when CSB was announced last year.


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## constaneum (Jun 25, 2019)

purple said:


> I've been assuming Q4 this year, same time as CSB, because I read somewhere that the actual samples for CSB and CSW were recorded around the same time. If that is the case, then we should expect an announcement around November as that's when CSB was announced last year.



Time flies. July is coming. So wait and then decide which suites you. Infinite woodwinds synthy ??? I think it sounds quite good and the function which allows you to position your instruments is pretty neat too if you dont have those positioning plugins.


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## borisb2 (Jun 25, 2019)

just listened to this:



I purchased already the clarinet (and love it) .. now I instantly had to hit the purchase button to buy that oboe . what a wonderful sound

ok, Ennio Morricone helped as well in that decision


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## NeonMediaKJT (Jun 26, 2019)

Do you guys think CSW will include Bass Clarinet and English Horn? Debating whether or not to buy the Berlin Woodwind Expansions A+B while on sale, but not sure if I should just wait for CSW.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jun 26, 2019)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Do you guys think CSW will include Bass Clarinet and English Horn? Debating whether or not to buy the Berlin Woodwind Expansions A+B while on sale, but not sure if I should just wait for CSW.


I don't know what instruments CSW will include so I can't speak to BWW Exp A, but I am guessing that BWW Exp B will not overlap too much with CSW because it is meant for exposed solo writing and CSW is meant to blend, so they will complement each other rather than overlap.


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## NeonMediaKJT (Jun 26, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I don't know what instruments CSW will include so I can't speak to BWW Exp A, but I am guessing that BWW Exp B will not overlap too much with CSW because it is meant for exposed solo writing and CSW is meant to blend, so they will complement each other rather than overlap.



Yeah, I think that's why I'm on the fence right now. Basically, I have Cinewinds Core that covers my basic Woodwind needs. But I have no English Horn or Bass Clarinet and figured that maybe Berlin Expansions would be a nice addition to Cinewinds. Not sure, though.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jun 26, 2019)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Yeah, I think that's why I'm on the fence right now. Basically, I have Cinewinds Core that covers my basic Woodwind needs. But I have no English Horn or Bass Clarinet and figured that maybe Berlin Expansions would be a nice addition to Cinewinds. Not sure, though.


I believe you can purchase individual winds from VSL and sometime by the end of 2019 you'll be able to do the same for Orchestral Tools, so you could wait and see. That is if you want english horn and bass clarinet for general blending-with-the-orchestra use. You'd probably want the english horn from Revive, not from Exp B.

If you want something to stand out for an exposed solo rather than blend, get BWW Exp B (and C for bass clarinet), as that is something I'm guessing Cinematic Studio Winds won't be designed to excel at.


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 26, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> If you want something to stand out for an exposed solo rather than blend, get BWW Exp B (and C for bass clarinet), *as that is something I'm guessing Cinematic Studio Winds won't be designed to excel at.*



I know that this post wasn't intended for me, but_ that_ is a really good point I had not considered. Crap, what to do, and the clock is ticking on Exp B.

Also was considering 8DIO's Intimate Woodwinds which sound more than decent. My issue with Exp B is that it seems like they're a one trick pony (even if they are exceptionally good at that one trick!) and expensive imo (even at the sale price) for just that.

Intimate Woodwinds sound great, and very versatile, and seem to do a good job of straddling the line between lyrical and utilitarian. I'm just weary of purchasing them based on their excellent demo videos, as I've been unimpressed with previous 8DIO woodwind purchases. What to do, what to do...


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## NeonMediaKJT (Jun 26, 2019)

mikefrommontreal said:


> I know that this post wasn't intended for me, but_ that_ is a really good point I had not considered. Crap, what to do, and the clock is ticking on Exp B.
> 
> Also was considering 8DIO's Intimate Woodwinds which sound more than decent. My issue with Exp B is that it seems like they're a one trick pony (even if they are exceptionally good at that one trick!) and expensive imo (even at the sale price) for just that.
> 
> Intimate Woodwinds sound great, and very versatile, and seem to do a good job of straddling the line between lyrical and utilitarian. I'm just weary of purchasing them based on their excellent demo videos, as I've been unimpressed with previous 8DIO woodwind purchases. What to do, what to do...



I'm in this predicament. Knowing that if I avoid Berlin EXP stuff, I'll likely regret it immediately, whereas if I do buy them and find they aren't exactly what I need, I'll regret that too, haha


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## NeonMediaKJT (Jun 26, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I believe you can purchase individual winds from VSL and sometime by the end of 2019 you'll be able to do the same for Orchestral Tools, so you could wait and see. That is if you want english horn and bass clarinet for general blending-with-the-orchestra use. You'd probably want the english horn from Revive, not from Exp B.
> 
> If you want something to stand out for an exposed solo rather than blend, get BWW Exp B (and C for bass clarinet), as that is something I'm guessing Cinematic Studio Winds won't be designed to excel at.



I've been playing around with the VSL stuff from Best Service, but I'm just not a fan of the player. 

When you say they sell individual Berlin woodwinds, is that from the Expansions or everything including the Revive stuff? 

I'd go with Revive right now if I could afford it which is why I'm considering the expansion stuff. I like the sound of the flute, oboe and english horn from EXP B and was hoping that EXP A+B would be a nice little LITE version of Berlin Woodwinds. But with it being only solo woodwinds and it being designed specifically for solo lyrical stuff, I'm just not too sure if it'll do what I want it to do.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jun 26, 2019)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> When you say they sell individual Berlin woodwinds, is that from the Expansions or everything including the Revive stuff?


Yes, I mean both Revive and Expansions. Sometime before 2019 ends, they will launch an online store that sells individual instruments. I have no info on what that will cost. In this video you can see Berlin Strings for sale as five individual instruments.


I think of BWW Expansions B & C the way I think of Cinesamples Tina Guo Cello. You don't really want that to be your whole cello section.


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## NeonMediaKJT (Jun 26, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Yes, I mean both Revive and Expansions. Sometime before 2019 ends, they will launch an online store that sells individual instruments. I have no info on what that will cost. In this video you can see Berlin Strings for sale as five individual instruments.
> 
> 
> I think of BWW Expansions B & C the way I think of Cinesamples Tina Guo Cello. You don't really want that to be your whole cello section.




ohhh yeah that's going to be part of their player launch, right? I remember seeing this on Facebook a few months ago. Now the decision becomes harder xD


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 26, 2019)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I'm in this predicament. Knowing that if I avoid Berlin EXP stuff, I'll likely regret it immediately, whereas if I do buy them and find they aren't exactly what I need, I'll regret that too, haha


Exactly. Personally, I think I'm going to wait. I'm a bit put off by the lack of key switching. I'm sure it's a great product, but it's something that's important to me, so my search continues...


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## borisb2 (Jun 26, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I believe you can purchase individual winds from VSL


purchased VSL SE Woodwinds for 52.- yesterday !!! (first VSL purchase for me) .. stellar deal and great sounding instruments with basic articulations (very good legato, staccato and sfz)


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## NeonMediaKJT (Jun 26, 2019)

mikefrommontreal said:


> Exactly. Personally, I think I'm going to wait. I'm a bit put off by the lack of key switching. I'm sure it's a great product, but it's something that's important to me, so my search continues...


I think I'm going to do the same. I need to start resisting the urge to purchase libraries just because they're on sale haha. I like the sound of the individual Orchestral Tool products when they finally arrive. Might wait for those to hold me out until CSW comes out.


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## I like music (Jun 26, 2019)

borisb2 said:


> purchased VSL SE Woodwinds for 52.- yesterday !!! (first VSL purchase for me) .. stellar deal and great sounding instruments with basic articulations (very good legato, staccato and sfz)


I still think they are one of the best sounding woods VIs out there (a friend uses them and I've had the chance to mess around with them). For that price, a no-brainer. But I have BWW and IW, so I can't go spending more money on things, even though this would be a very worthwhile investment.


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