# Understanding the RME Product Line - PCI



## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 16, 2018)

Looking at RME for the next level.

Not looking for massive input count, but something beyond USB.

I could simply go with a Babyface Pro (USB) and call it a day.

But the PCI line is intriguing.

However, wading through their offerings is daunting.

I see an audio I/O board that works with Madi (?).

Is their a simple PCI product with 1/4" audio I/O?

Or is it a multi board affair?

Or is USB-C an option?


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## Sami (Jun 16, 2018)

I'm interested in this as well. Would like to add an RME internal card to my system but not finding one which just has a connector for monitors. I only do MIDI, no recording at all. Which product is right for me?


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## dtcomposer (Jun 16, 2018)

I have the Babyface pro and it is really good as long as you don't need a bunch of inputs. I had an internal RME card previously and I had issues with some noise that was transferring from the computer. I haven't noticed a difference in the latency. I would strongly recommend it for mostly midi setups.


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## Manaberry (Jun 16, 2018)

dtcomposer said:


> I have the Babyface pro and it is really good as long as you don't need a bunch of inputs. I had an internal RME card previously and I had issues with some noise that was transferring from the computer. I haven't noticed a difference in the latency. I would strongly recommend it for mostly midi setups.



Did you try to add tape on the metal piece of the card before to add it in the pci slot? I don't have the PCI card yet, but I've read so many comments about this problem. Seems to be related to the ground loop. (I do have a hum remover behind my audio interface for that).

I would like to go for a RME card as well, my USB Scarlett is a little bit unstable..


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 16, 2018)

dtcomposer said:


> I have the Babyface pro and it is really good as long as you don't need a bunch of inputs. I had an internal RME card previously and I had issues with some noise that was transferring from the computer. I haven't noticed a difference in the latency. I would strongly recommend it for mostly midi setups.




I record a lot of guitar, bass, and vocals.

But i don't need more inputs than the BFPro offers.

Currently using an Audient id14 which has a great JFET pre on input 1 for guitar and bass.

I've heard the instrument input on the Babyface has an impedance that isn't directly suited for guitars and requires a DI.

Yes? No?

I've read users keeping their Audients as a front end to the Babyface Pro since the Audient DI and mic preamps are pretty nice.

The ground loop/noise issue with the PCI products gives me serious pause.


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## dtcomposer (Jun 16, 2018)

Manaberry said:


> Did you try to add tape on the metal piece of the card before to add it in the pci slot? I don't have the PCI card yet, but I've read so many comments about this problem. Seems to be related to the ground loop. (I do have a hum remover behind my audio interface for that).
> 
> I would like to go for a RME card as well, my USB Scarlett is a little bit unstable..



Yeah I tried the tape thing, and I did use a hum eliminator but I think it colored the sound. I also switched to different slots, I actually built a new computer as well and tried it in there. It was my second RME card and both had issues for whatever reason. I know others have used them without issue, so I might have just been unlucky. I just wanted the peace of mind of not having to worry about it so I went with the Babyface.


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## dtcomposer (Jun 16, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> I record a lot of guitar, bass, and vocals.
> 
> But i don't need more inputs than the BFPro offers.
> 
> ...



Sorry I don't do much recording. Just a few vocals and then mostly midi so I'm not sure about the suitability for guitars.


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## Manaberry (Jun 16, 2018)

dtcomposer said:


> Yeah I tried the tape thing, and I did use a hum eliminator but I think it colored the sound. I also switched to different slots, I actually built a new computer as well and tried it in there. It was my second RME card and both had issues for whatever reason. I know others have used them without issue, so I might have just been unlucky. I just wanted the peace of mind of not having to worry about it so I went with the Babyface.



oh okay, fair enough!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 16, 2018)

Manaberry said:


> Did you try to add tape on the metal piece of the card before to add it in the pci slot? I don't have the PCI card yet, but I've read so many comments about this problem. Seems to be related to the ground loop. (I do have a hum remover behind my audio interface for that).
> 
> I would like to go for a RME card as well, my USB Scarlett is a little bit unstable..


Computers are a mess of EMI so you shouldn't put anything inside them. Some digital interfaces can be OK but will still be affected by it. I know someone who specifically did some tests and measurements to see what really goes on inside of a computer in terms of EMI that would affect PCIe cards and it was pretty bad.


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## Quasar (Jun 16, 2018)

I have the RME HDPSe AIO, and do not pretend to understand Total Mix and all of the channels etc... I have it running simply with ADAT, 2 optical cables connected to an MR816x. (I just have snapshots saved that work for me without really knowing why.)

I used to use the MR816x as the audio interface, but the firewire was finicky, had recurring dropouts, and you had to configure a so-called legacy driver in Windows to make it work. Since changing its use to a breakout box only and configuring the routing so that the 8 I/O, headphone. vol knobs etc. all work with the RME card, I can pretty much do anything with any number of instances at <10ms latency.

Because of the ADAT setup, I'm not using RME's own breakout cables, but get the benefit of the PCIe bandwidth and RME drivers. It works great. No ground loop issues and a very low noise floor here.


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## wst3 (Jun 16, 2018)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Computers are a mess of EMI so you shouldn't put anything inside them. Some digital interfaces can be OK but will still be affected by it. I know someone who specifically did some tests and measurements to see what really goes on inside of a computer in terms of EMI that would affect PCIe cards and it was pretty bad.


As one who has designed and measured performance of PCI audio cards I have to take issue with that - or rather request specifics.

Way back when, our choices were:
1) all-in-one card inside the computer - this was prone to noise problems as the analog sections, especially the input sections, would pick up some EMI. Not to suggest it couldn't work, but it required a great deal of work after the card was assembled to verify that noise immunity was sufficient. And sometime (say it isn't so) it wasn't, which meant rework.
2) digital card inside connected to external A/D and D/A - the connection was typically lightpipe or what we called AES/EBU (dang I'm old!) - this worked brilliantly every time. It was the lazy, surefire solution!
3) all-in-one outside the box - as mentioned, this was a while ago, Firewire was a possibility, USB was becoming an option, and proprietary solutions were a possibility, but in general it was not really in the cards (pun could have been avoided) yet. For low channel counts it was realistic, but for larger counts it wasn't. This was even easier - in terms of noise immunity - than #2 above. It just wasn't practical.

At the time, and I still kick myself, we gave Ethernet (not IP over Ethernet) a lot of thought. We knew it could be done, and latency could be managed, but 100BaseT was the limit, so it really couldn't outperform even USB. Wish we'd stuck with it, since now it is almost easy to build a large channel count, low latency interface that speaks either Ethernet or even IP.

So if you've got some measurements that suggest otherwise I really would love to see them. It means either we were doing something right (it could happen) or we completely screwed up our measurements (also, sadly, possible).

Thanks!


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 16, 2018)

i think i'll stick with my id14 for a while longer.

<hides feathers>


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## EvilDragon (Jun 16, 2018)

Babyface should be great for you. Don't worry about USB vs PCI, RME has the best drivers with lowest latency over USB, bar none!


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 16, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Babyface should be great for you. Don't worry about USB vs PCI, RME has the best drivers with lowest latency over USB, bar none!



any thoughts in the 470k ohm impedance on the input being a limiting aspect for guitar?


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## jamwerks (Jun 16, 2018)

ADI - 2 Pro + Raydat card, and Bob's your uncle!


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## EvilDragon (Jun 16, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> any thoughts in the 470k ohm impedance on the input being a limiting aspect for guitar?



Should mostly be fine I think. But if it doesn't, easy to get a DI box.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 16, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> ADI - 2 Pro + Raydat card, and Bob's your uncle!



the ADI-2 looks phenomenal.

no mic preamps - but i could audio out from my id14.

id14 has ADAT, but IN only.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 16, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Should mostly be fine I think. But if it doesn't, easy to get a DI box.



back to the Radial site.

JDI.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 16, 2018)

wst3 said:


> As one who has designed and measured performance of PCI audio cards I have to take issue with that - or rather request specifics.
> 
> Way back when, our choices were:
> 1) all-in-one card inside the computer - this was prone to noise problems as the analog sections, especially the input sections, would pick up some EMI. Not to suggest it couldn't work, but it required a great deal of work after the card was assembled to verify that noise immunity was sufficient. And sometime (say it isn't so) it wasn't, which meant rework.
> ...


The tests and measurements were of the EMI, not the audio performance of the cards but like you said, analog cards can easily be affected by it. I don't think the tests were specific for PCIe slots but rather they were analyzing different power supplies with different power cables. I think they were done ~20 years ago so maybe things have changed in the design of computer power supplies and PCIe cards.

Digital interfaces can still be affected by jitter and things such as that caused by interference from the computer.

On a computer with an external interface, the power cord on the computer doesn't make any difference (unless you're maybe running USB powered devices) but with an internal interface it does make a difference and I've heard it for myself on both an RME madi interface and a Lynx AES interface. My only guess is that different levels of EMI cause different levels of jitter in those cards.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jun 16, 2018)




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