# Are the Yamaha WX5, or other wind controllers, still viable?



## Alohabob (Jan 1, 2016)

I don't perform live but rather I compose. However, I don't play piano well either so I'm usually using the step editor to draw in notes.

I have an Akai EWI wind controller that I've never liked because of the fact that the keys are touch-sensitive and being a sax player I can't ever get used to playing it that way.

I'm not able to find much online about these and if they are very usable. For instance, I'm using Ableton Live 64-bit on Windows 10. Will the WX5 work? I couldn't even find that info on Yamaha's site. 

Any info?


----------



## Udo (Jan 2, 2016)

I used to have a WX5, bought to play Yamaha VL modeling synths. Although I had played a bit of tenor sax for a while, a long time ago, I never practiced enough to become really "loose" on the fingering and decided to sell it (also, in part, because I didn't like the WX5 key action much). Use a breath controller with MIDI guitar or keyboard now.

BTW, despite the fact that I was never a really good sax player, I appeared on several records, as I was good at producing those "screaming" tenor sounds, popular at the time in funk, etc.


----------



## Udo (Jan 2, 2016)

Forgot to mention above that, since you're an experienced sax player, it could be an option for you. I suggest you try one, if you can, because as I said, I didn't like the WX5 key action much. However, I'm not an experienced wind instrument player and I had the option to use a breath controller with MIDI guitar or keyboard, so there was no incentive to try and make it work for me.


----------



## rgarber (Jan 2, 2016)

Same boat here, sax player, not good at keyboards... I have a wx5 I don't use for a couple of reasons. The octave key is something I've never gotten used to and I tend to overblow something awful. I keep thinking to put mine on ebay just never did it. The problem is the resale on the things isn't as good as it used to be so you're better off keeping it and letting it collect dust. There's some who say it puts out too much information and can slow things down. I ended up buying a couple of modules for it that do some filtering but just remembering how to set all that up again I'd probably just do the step record method just to save time.


----------



## Pete N (Jan 2, 2016)

I'm another experienced sax player with a wind synth gathering dust - WX11 I think it is. Realised I was going to have to put in quite a bit of practice specifically on the synth to get anything useful out of it, and the breath control wasn't anything like I was used to with a real instrument. Now you've mentioned it, I may go back and give it another go!


----------



## rgames (Jan 2, 2016)

Timely - I was just going to put up a thread on this topic...! I just got a WX-5.

I'm a clarinetist and have been eyeing one for many years. As an aside, I think the WX/EWI series of instruments have the least info available of any MIDI-type device. The WX-5 has been around for something like 15 years but there's not a lot of info out there on it. And most of the YouTube videos that are available, well, not what I'm after...

Anyway, here are my initial impressions (again noting that I'm a clarinetist): first, it's tricky to get a natural vibrato via the reed controller. There are two ways to set up the pitch control via reed response: "loose" where you can bend pitch only upwards and "tight" where the pitch moves both up and down. In "loose" mode the pitch bend is zero when there's no pressure on the reed (hence you play with a "loose" embouchure and can only raise the pitch by tightening your embouchure). In "tight" mode the pitch bend is zero when there's some pressure on the reed, so it's more similar to a real mouthpiece/reed where you have some embouchure pressure. You can then loosen your embouchure to drop the pitch and tighten it to raise the pitch, like what you do on an actual instrument. The trick with the "tight" setting is, of course, that you have to have a good ear to know when you're playing in tune (again, like a real instrument). In practice I found it very easy to do so. You can load up a synth with a pitch bend indicator to see how well you control the pitch.

So, in "tight" mode, settling on the correct pitch is easy. The problem I'm having is that dropping pitch from that baseline is much easier than raising the pitch, so you wind up with a vibrato that is more low than high. The way the reed is set up, you get full "up" pitch when the tip of the reed is (nearly) all the way against the tip of the mouthpiece (which never happens on an actual reed instrument). But you can't tighten your embouchure enough to make that happen unless you put a *tiny* bit of the mouthpiece in your mouth - the very tip. If you use a typical clarinet/sax mouth position then you can't get full "up" pitch. You can scale the sensitivity of the pitch change response but you're stuck with this asymmetric behavior - you'll always get more down pitch than up when using "tight" mode.

Second, the practical minimum CC value from the breath control is somewhere around 20. There are controls that set this threshold - the device needs to decide what value of air pressure creates the "note on" message. If you drop it too low then it's in the noise and the controller constantly sends "note on". So you have to raise it to some minimum. But that minimum is on the analog side on the breath controller - you should be able to scale the corresponding minimum CC value all the way down to zero. I don't know why you can't. Then, you have to blow *really* hard to get max CC (127) because there's no resistance like on an actual clar/sax. Again, there are controls to set this sensitivity but increasing the sensitivity raises the sensitivity at the low end as well, so you run back into that "note on" problem. The compromise I've settled on is OK but still unnatural.

Third, the keys don't always respond as quickly as on a sax/clar. I'd say they're quick enough for most applications but definitely not as responsive as a clar/sax. For example, the instrument often misses notes in trills.

Finally, Yamaha needs to update it and add wireless MIDI. The cable is a pain.

Overall I'd say it's "OK". It definitely takes some commitment to get anything that sounds decent (probably why it's not very popular). I can say for certain that it opens up some different creative possibilities - you won't play anything that sounds like it came from a keyboard. So it's neat in that regard.

For me, the jury is still out. However, I rarely adopt anything very quickly (hardware or software), so ask me again in a year. Just note that a lot of places won't let you return it because you put your mouth on it (stupid...).

rgames


----------



## rgarber (Jan 2, 2016)

BTW, there's a really good site for breath control users: http://www.patchmanmusic.com/index.html

I bought some stuff for my wx5 like their oil/grease to keep the unit in tip-top shape. There's a lot of info and they cover most of the breath controllers out there.

Rich


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 2, 2016)

Hell yeah it's viable!

I come from a recorder background (it was my first instrument and I kept taking lessons), and I love the EWI to pieces. It took at most two days to feel more comfortable on it than on recorder, because the breath control is so much easier. And if you don't practice a wind instrument - in my experience - your fingers don't lose a step, but your breath control is what goes.

Since I don't play an Boehm instrument, I can't do much on a WX. But you can play EWI with a simplified recorder fingering, and as on recorder there's no particular embouchure. It's totally intuitive for me, but of course you read Richard's post about how it's not as easy for clarinet and sax players.

While I'm at it, a self-promoting plug: please check out Blowfinger, which turns your iPad into a breath or wind controller.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 2, 2016)

Reading Richard's post again - the EWI keys don't have any lag at all, and you can play trills all day long. There's a key delay setting to avoid false triggers, and even with that set to the default value of 30 (whatever that means), you don't notice a delay. You can tongue notes really quickly too - "ticka ticka ticka ticka" etc.

But the big difference on the EWI is that they're not keys, they're capacitance-sensitive touch buttons. I forgot to mention that, and it's one of the main reasons there's no adjustment for a recorder player but there is for someone used to playing clarinet or sax. On recorder your fingers rest in the air when you're not covering a hole, and that's a common complaint from sax players.


----------



## Saxer (Jan 2, 2016)

I play the good old WX7 - I bought it when it came out in the 80s and meanwhile it's the oldest instrument I own. I use it for all brass and woodwind sounds - in former times it was more a synth instrument and I controlled a Matrix1000 and a Yamaha VL1-m with it. But since Wallander instruments and later Samplemodeling came out it's incredible useful for me. I often do complete pop brass sections for final productions (mostly 2Trumps, 2Trombs, Alto-, Tenor- Barisax) and it works for orchestral brass and woods too. Sometimes I play the real saxes but for mixed sextions it's ok with the SM saxes too. For very fast parts I have to program midi events and blow the CC data in a second go... there's always more latency than an acoustic instrument so it's impossible to play over a certain speed without very clunky timing issues. But for normal stuff (also funky parts etc) it's possible to get used to the latency.

I use the tight lip mode, as rgames described and I do vibrato with it like on a sax. Especially on Samplemodeling sax and clarinet that sounds better than the built in vibrato because it modulates pitch and not volume. It's a main reason why I don't like the EWI with it's pacifier mouthpiece where you can't control the pitch at all (it only creates some non controlable pitchmodulation when biting on it).

Recording the WX7 midi can be tricky because when not playing the instrument is always out of tune. I get it in tune when I play by embochure but when I stop playing it get's out of tune again (loose lips - pitch down). This is not audible but it creates pitch bend midi data. So when overlaping regions (clips) there's often some midi pitch bend salad. I'm used to cut everything clean before doing additional recordings. A simple overdub is not possible. And you can't quantize it because it quantizes the notes against their controller curves.
A pro of this pitch bend data is the permanent light detuning like on real instruments. Especially for doubling instruments like four big band trumpets it sounds very natural.

Meanwhile I bought a few WX7 and a WX5 on ebay to have backup instruments. It's not easy to calibrate them. There are some very little screws which work very interactive to control pitch zero, pitch amplitude, trigger point and lip zero etc. One of my backup WX7 is already calibrated. The WX5 I bought is some kind of different and I couldn't get it to work up to now. Have to spend more time with it... or maybe it's broken...

For strings I use the TEControl breath controller. It uses less air and doesn't modulate pitch. Sounds more natural for strings.


----------



## Alohabob (Jan 2, 2016)

Wow, I didn't get any email notifications so I had no idea there were this many replies! 

I ended up getting the WX5 today and I have to say that so far I LOVE it way more than the ewi.

Nick, you come from a recorder background where you don't cover the holes or even really touch the instrument with your fingers unless you're going to play a certain note. That was a huge issue for me. Not touching the keys is were I was struggling as I always had my fingers touching the sax keys. The WX5 allows me to do that so it's more more intuitive.

I also hated the octave rollers and the Yamaha has buttons.

So basically I was just getting unwanted notes all over the scale.

Unlike a sax, I find you have much better control with your lips on the very edge of the mouthpiece and I used to play with a plastic (or maybe it was plastic coated) reed so this is very natural for me.

Rgames, thanks for that info. I looked into what I talked about and will be looking for my little screwdriver tomorrow to make those adjustments 

I haven't played it long but I'm definitely enjoying it a lot more than I did the EWI. A lot of people loved the EWI and claim it's better, but it just wasn't for me. 

If anyone wants my EWI-USB, feel free to make me an offer as I'll probably be putting it on craigslist or something very soon.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 2, 2016)

Yup, all those are common complaints.

The rollers are totally intuitive for a recorder player too, because we're used to shifting octaves by pinching (half-covering) the thumb hole. You move your thumb down to go up on the recorder but up to go up on EWI, but that doesn't require a brain shift.


----------



## rgames (Jan 2, 2016)

Alohabob said:


> Rgames, thanks for that info. I looked into what I talked about and will be looking for my little screwdriver tomorrow to make those adjustments



Here's a trick I use to calibrate the reed sensitivity on the WX-5 if you use the "tight" setting: load up a MIDI monitor (e.g. insert the Monitor plug-in on a MIDI channel in Cubase) and put the tip of your thumb on the "Lip Zero" knob. Now put the mouthpiece in your mouth and set a comfortable embouchure. Spin the knob until you see the pitch bend value go to 63 (i.e. zero offset). That'll set zero pitch bend at your natural embouchure pressure.

I'm not sure why but it seems that knob needs adjustment every now and then. That's a quick way to do it.

rgames


----------



## ptram (Jul 8, 2022)

rgames said:


> Finally, Yamaha needs to update it and add wireless MIDI. The cable is a pain.


Found this message after some years, when looking around for an opportunity to restart using my WX-5.

So, maybe you already know that Yamaha has a wireless adapter for any MIDI devices, called the MD-BT01. Maybe it can work.

Paolo


----------



## Nico5 (Jul 8, 2022)

ptram said:


> So, maybe you already know that Yamaha has a wireless adapter for any MIDI devices, called the MD-BT01. Maybe it can work.


I have that MIDI adapter, but I believe it needs devices that supply power to their midi output port. 

Not all of the midi devices I have seem to do that.

I don't have a WX-5, so unfortunately I can't test that.


----------



## robcs (Jul 8, 2022)

ptram said:


> Found this message after some years, when looking around for an opportunity to restart using my WX-5.
> 
> So, maybe you already know that Yamaha has a wireless adapter for any MIDI devices, called the MD-BT01. Maybe it can work.
> 
> Paolo


Get the UD-BT01 instead. That’s what I use and it works fine. 

I also have a small usb power bank velcroed to the WX5 and connected via a 6” cable (they sell them for Arduinos) so the setup is truly wireless.


----------



## ptram (Jul 9, 2022)

robcs said:


> Get the UD-BT01 instead. That’s what I use and it works fine.


But it's USB and not MIDI. How do you connect it to a WX5?

Paolo


----------



## robcs (Jul 9, 2022)

ptram said:


> But it's USB and not MIDI. How do you connect it to a WX5?
> 
> Paolo


D’oh you’re right. I switched from an EWI USB to the WX5 last year and I forgot I’d had to give up on “wirelessness”. I’ve updated my post


----------



## HeliaVox (Jul 9, 2022)

I was thinking of dusting off my WX5 and relearning it. Then this forum post pops up. It’s a message from beyond? I really hate the octave buttons though. Maybe I’ll have more patience this time to actually use them properly


----------



## jvsax (Jul 9, 2022)

I use my WX-5 for live gigs and recording. All the guitar and organ solos on my website were played on it. I bought a 2nd one once I found out that they were discontinued, although I read that the Roland Pro AE-30 is a suitable replacement. I found that the best way to deal with the octave key issues is to practice the alternate fingerings to cross the break, and after a few months these fingerings feel natural. I didn’t expect that, but it really did work.


----------

