# How come there is a distinct lack of saxophone libraries?



## saboo (Jun 13, 2020)

This has always puzzled me, with saxes being instruments that nearly everyone loves and have such great versatility. Although admittedly not common in orchestras, I don't see why contemporary composers wouldn't love to have them as part of their woodwinds collections. It isn't 1800s' Paris, after all. I guess by posting this I'm very prone to being contradicted, but as if anybody could ever contradict ME!!!


(please contradict me)

For the record I know about SWAM saxophones, they seem alright but the question of why sax libraries are uncommon still stands


----------



## Thysmusic.com (Jun 13, 2020)

Albion Neo has a nice saxophone ensemble instead of winds (but with a lot of reed sizzle that once heard can not be unheard)


----------



## easyrider (Jun 13, 2020)

Thysmusic.com said:


> Albion Neo has a nice saxophone ensemble instead of winds (but with a lot of reed sizzle that once heard can not be unheard)



Hmmmmmmm Bacon


----------



## redlester (Jun 13, 2020)

I think there is sax in the Kontakt factory library, but you’re right about the lack of it elsewhere. I’ve often wondered the same. Are they especially difficult to sample?

Whenever people mention sax I then have this running through my brain for the rest of the day!


----------



## mekosmowski (Jun 13, 2020)

VSL has sax.


----------



## Vin (Jun 13, 2020)

Can someone please sample this "sax"?


----------



## micrologus (Jun 13, 2020)

mekosmowski said:


> VSL has sax.


VSL Saxophones are excellent.


----------



## Rob (Jun 13, 2020)

Sax has such an enormous range of expression and dynamics... and it's so elastic when phrasing, hard to sample. That's why imo the modeling offerings have an advantage here...


----------



## MartinH. (Jun 13, 2020)

Sensual Sax for Kontakt







www.embertone.com


----------



## Bighill (Jun 13, 2020)

I think the reason is that sampled saxophones sound even worse than most other sampled instruments.


----------



## JohnG (Jun 13, 2020)

Bighill said:


> I think the reason is that sampled saxophones sound even worse than most other sampled instruments.



I agree. 

The ones in the Kontakt library are usable. Alto, tenor, baritone. I use them as a section and they work ok; never tried to create a solo as such. As @Rob said, they have "enormous range of expression and dynamics," from fairly polite to a buzzing, roaring nightmare. So it's a bit like electric guitar or solo cello -- most sample sets do a couple of things well but hard to capture the glory of the solo instrument.

Also, how often do you hear sax on a song these days? Sax was my first instrument (yes, went bad at an early age) and played many gigs in smoky (yes!) bars. I think it would be brutally difficult to sample.


----------



## YaniDee (Jun 13, 2020)

8Dio has Studio Tenor, and also the Studio Saxophone pack..There's also a whole line at vgtrumpet.com (currently has a sale) and more at www.cmusic.pro..


----------



## Ihnoc (Jun 13, 2020)

Orchestral Tools Glory Days provides 5 saxophones (2 altos, 2 tenors and a barritone). Great library in my opinion. I only have the VSL Special Edition, but the saxophones there are good fun too. Prefer Orchestral Tools' versions, but the VSL instruments are very nice.


----------



## Michael Stibor (Jun 13, 2020)

I bought an alto sax from VSL the other day. It’s to be used an orchestral context. I can’t believe how good it is (simple, but good) for the price I paid for it.


----------



## Rob (Jun 13, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I agree.
> 
> The ones in the Kontakt library are usable. Alto, tenor, baritone. I use them as a section and they work ok; never tried to create a solo as such.


I may be wrong, but they could be a subset of Chris Hein's horns


JohnG said:


> Sax was my first instrument (yes, went bad at an early age) and played many gigs in smoky (yes!) bars.


ha, didn't know that, you keep the sins of your past well hidden...


----------



## jbuhler (Jun 13, 2020)

Thysmusic.com said:


> Albion Neo has a nice saxophone ensemble instead of winds (but with a lot of reed sizzle that once heard can not be unheard)


Neo's winds are not just saxes.


----------



## Cathbad (Jun 13, 2020)

It's more to do with how saxes are used in real life, I think, and hence a reduced demand.

Saxes aren't very often used in the orchestra. I can think of maybe a couple of dozen pieces, but it's usually deployed as a special (usually jazzy) effect or a specific tone for a solo line. But saxes haven't established themselves as section members of the woodwind.

There's the Nelson Riddle and Henry Mancini stuff, I suppose, but that's quite out of fashion nowadays. Hence Michael Giacchino using that kind of orchestration for The Incredibles, to set it in the desired period.

Horn lines still feature from time to time, but they're usually simple parts and wouldn't require an extensive library to mockup adequately. Sax features have fallen right out of vogue. I can think of Talk Dirty (Jason Derulo) and Thrift Shop (Macklemore & Ryan Lewis) but apart from that you have to go back to the 80s to see much sax action. I guess the main reason is because the primary association of the saxophone is jazz, which has pretty much become music of the past perhaps since Miles Davis died in '91. There are some wonderful musicians carrying the torch but it no longer feels like a contemporary genre, but that's a WHOLE other discussion.

EDIT: How could I forget the very catchy 2010 hit Mr Saxobeat (Alexandra Stan)?


----------



## DSmolken (Jun 13, 2020)

Plus real sax players are tough competition for samples because they're pretty easy to work with, with most being used to quickly coming up with reasonable parts on the fly.


----------



## AlainTH (Jun 13, 2020)

have you heared the sax of glory days OT? i use them.


----------



## aaronnt1 (Jun 13, 2020)

I 2nd the OT Glory Days saxes, they are excellent, lots of articulations and 5 distinct performances.


----------



## Mike Greene (Jun 13, 2020)

I wanted to do a (jazz) sax library, but that's totally off the table now. (And that's saying something, because that "table" has about 20 new libraries in various stages of development. But not sax.)

As others have said, sax is a very nuanced instrument, so to do a good sax library would require a lot of work and expense. Which I would be fine with ... except ...

Realitone has nine different libraries for sale. Our worst seller ... BY FAR ... is the Wayne Bergeron Screaming Trumpet library. Is it a perfect library? Maybe, maybe not, but either way, I'm pretty sure there is no other library with that lead trumpet sound (it's freaking Wayne Bergeron!), so for anyone serious about doing big band jazz, it should be worth the 99 bucks. But we sell maybe one per week? (We sell about 5 banjos _per day_. A banjo I recorded in a single afternoon.)

So my fear is that we could spend a ton of time and money on a library which has almost no demand.

(I could be wrong, though, so I'd be really interested to know whether OT has done well with Glory Days.)


----------



## Lionel Schmitt (Jun 13, 2020)

cuz their actual name is SUCKsophone.


----------



## Stringtree (Jun 13, 2020)

A bassoon is a much sexier saxophone. Good examples abound. Polkasound's accordions are killer. The saxophone is a very personal instrument, like a solo-string instrument. MG's voices are pushing against the edge of sampled voices you can play on the keyboard. 

Isn't this a great time? Depending on the portrayal of the sax, I have found I can cheat with the Embertone or 8dio tenor one. But as a solo, these pastiches fall to pieces once the lighting level in the room is raised. Just the nature of the breath and personality of the player. Nyman, yes. Coltrane, noo.

I hate to say it, but the folks in the room pushing for SWAM do have something here. The technology is getting very good in this area.


----------



## dbudimir (Jun 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> I wanted to do a (jazz) sax library, but that's totally off the table now. (And that's saying something, because that "table" has about 20 new libraries in various stages of development. But not sax.)
> 
> As others have said, sax is a very nuanced instrument, so to do a good sax library would require a lot of work and expense. Which I would be fine with ... except ...
> 
> ...



I love the Screaming Trumpet. I can’t believe that’s all you sell. That stinks.


----------



## Bighill (Jun 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> I wanted to do a (jazz) sax library, but that's totally off the table now. (And that's saying something, because that "table" has about 20 new libraries in various stages of development. But not sax.)
> 
> As others have said, sax is a very nuanced instrument, so to do a good sax library would require a lot of work and expense. Which I would be fine with ... except ...
> 
> ...





Mike Greene said:


> I wanted to do a (jazz) sax library, but that's totally off the table now. (And that's saying something, because that "table" has about 20 new libraries in various stages of development. But not sax.)
> 
> As others have said, sax is a very nuanced instrument, so to do a good sax library would require a lot of work and expense. Which I would be fine with ... except ...
> 
> ...


I have Screaming Trumpet, and it´s awesome. It doesn´t get much use, though. That is because this kind of trumpet is rarely needed in the films I´m working on, and when I write for a jazz ensemble I usually don´t have to deliver a mockup.


----------



## Mike Greene (Jun 13, 2020)

dbudimir said:


> I love the Screaming Trumpet. I can’t believe that’s all you sell. That stinks.


Thanks! On the bright side, my costs were low, since this was a rework of samples Jeff Steinman (Warp IV) recorded and paid for. Still, it's one of many _"Ooh, I sure guessed wrong on that one!"_ experiences I've had. In fact, for every Screaming Trumpet, there's a RealiBanjo, which had no business selling as well as it did, so I won't be complaining. 



Bighill said:


> I have Screaming Trumpet, and it´s awesome. It doesn´t get much use, though. That is because this kind of trumpet is rarely needed in the films I´m working on, and when I write for a jazz ensemble I usually don´t have to deliver a mockup.


Wait ... when you do jazz cues, you get to hire a real ensemble??? Color me envious!


----------



## DSmolken (Jun 13, 2020)

Really appreciate your willingness to talk about what sells and what doesn't.


----------



## Bighill (Jun 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> Thanks! On the bright side, my costs were low, since this was a rework of samples Jeff Steinman (Warp IV) recorded and paid for. Still, it's one of many _"Ooh, I sure guessed wrong on that one!"_ experiences I've had. In fact, for every Screaming Trumpet, there's a RealiBanjo, which had no business selling as well as it did, so I won't be complaining.
> 
> 
> Wait ... when you do jazz cues, you get to hire a real ensemble??? Color me envious!


Yes, I mostly work with musicians. I try to limit my use of samples (in what reaches the world,) to percussive stuff and synths. We have some excellent big bands in Norway, but I have to admit that I have not done much jazz lately.


----------



## Dietz (Jun 13, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> [...] jazz, which has pretty much become music of the past perhaps since Miles Davis died in '91. [...]


Pssssssst! Don't tell that to all those jazz cats who pay for my mixes. 8-)


----------



## mekosmowski (Jun 13, 2020)

Is sax still regularly used in wind bands? (Whether there's any overlap in wind band writers and sample library users is another story.)

For modeled winds, are keys with control surfaces preferred over an EWI-type controller?


----------



## Geoff Grace (Jun 13, 2020)

Dietz said:


> Pssssssst! Don't tell that to all those jazz cats who pay for my mixes. 8-)


Yeah, I was going to say that maybe someone should tell these young people that jazz is dead:





Best,

Geoff


----------



## purple (Jun 13, 2020)

Classical sax is pretty rare. Modern concert composers, who do use sax frequently, are not the target audience of 90% of sample libraries because they aren't the ones that need really good sample libraries as much as media composers who are, again, less likely to use them in an orchestral context.

Combine that with the fact that sampled saxophones sound like #^$& and there you go. I think sax is just one of those unsamplable instruments that won't be virtualized properly until modeled instruments get really good.

There's already more jazz-oriented ones but those also run into the second point i just made as well.


----------



## Cathbad (Jun 13, 2020)

Geoff Grace said:


> Yeah, I was going to say that maybe someone should tell these young people that jazz is dead:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Aaaand the can of worms is opened. I didn't say jazz is dead. I said it's become music of the past. 

Like any language, codifying a musical genre too much makes it static. It's preserved in amber and performances become recreations of, and homages to, the style. 

Unimaginative American University education is one culprit. But the main factor is that about 80% of what little funding remains for jazz music comes from the Kennedy Center. Spending is influenced almost exclusively by the Marsalis family, several of whom take a very prescriptive attitude to what jazz "is" or "should be." 

Anyone hoping to make a living as a jazz musician has to go along with the Marsalis Neo New Orleans idea of what jazz is, if they want access to those funds. So I have great respect - and some hope for the genre - for Snarky Puppy, Jacob Collier, Kyle Eastwood, Gwylim Simcock, Laura Jurd and others who plough their own furrow.


----------



## Dietz (Jun 13, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> Aaaand the can of worms is opened. I didn't say jazz is dead. I said it's become music of the past.


I was cracking a joke (and you know that). 

The situation seems to be a bit different here in Europe, though. There's a strong connection between modern electronica and jazz, and a considerable part of the scene is quite young, innovative, vivid and pretty diverse. Those cats won't get rich, that's for sure, but there are ways to make money from it nonetheless (... otherwise they wouldn't be able to book me, every now and then ;-D ...)

... but this takes us OT, sorry. Back to saxophones!


----------



## bbunker (Jun 13, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> I wanted to do a (jazz) sax library, but that's totally off the table now. (And that's saying something, because that "table" has about 20 new libraries in various stages of development. But not sax.)
> 
> As others have said, sax is a very nuanced instrument, so to do a good sax library would require a lot of work and expense. Which I would be fine with ... except ...
> 
> ...



You know, I read this a few times and worked around a few reactions. On the one hand I'm not surprised because it feels like something of a niche library, and a lot of people who may not know who Wayne is would not get the appeal of it, and so on and so forth.

Honestly, though - just from my own experience - the biggest detractor on the Screaming Trumpet might be that it sits by itself on the shelf. There's no "Sassy Trombone" or "Squawking Saxes" or - even better, "LA Big Band toolkit" with all of them together so that you know that they're at least intended to be used together, with a similar set of articulations and switching parameters, and with similarly recorded materials.

I know that I've recommended the Bergeron library before to people, but not nearly as often as other big band libraries. Because when people ask for recommendations, it's always for full sets - the question is always "which big band libraries do the best job on mockups for x kind of thing," not "what trumpet can i add to my other libraries."

Which is to say - if you cobbled together a big band to go along with the Bergeron, and especially if it had similar recordings (not necessarily all the articulations, because the dude in the solo chair doesn't need to play that crazy sh** up high, but just with decent LA players) for multiple trumpet and bone chairs? God dang would I be excited. Can I get an amen? Can we change Mike's complete schedule and get him into the studio and recording that whole band from this one saxophone thread? Come on, internet - do your job!!

Seriously, though, it would be danged sweet and I say "take my money" precisely never - but I might drag it out here.


----------



## Cathbad (Jun 13, 2020)

Dietz said:


> I was cracking a joke (and you know that).
> 
> The situation seems to be a bit different here in Europe, though. There's a strong connection between modern electronica and jazz, and a considerable part of the scene is quite young, innovative, vivid and pretty diverse. Those cats won't get rich, that's for sure, but there are ways to make money from it nonetheless (... otherwise they wouldn't be able to book me, every now and then ;-D ...)
> 
> ... but this takes us OT, sorry. Back to saxophones!


Yes, you're right. Down in the south east corner of Europe, there's strongly rhythmic improvised music featuring sax. Fanfare Ciocarlia is a well known example. Can we call it jazz? Branford Marsalis would say no. I'd say I don't care, it's just fun music and very good playing. 

But again, Balkan band music is another side to the sax (very oud-influenced) that a sample library would struggle to capture alongside the Debussy Rhapsody and Charlie Parker.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 13, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> Can we call it jazz? Branford Marsalis would say no.


I think you mean Wynton. Branford has a much less militant attitude about it all (or did last I heard, maybe not any more).

It seems to me there are as many sax libraries (or saxes built into other libraries) as there are for most other single instruments, but you don't hear about them much. But maybe I'm just not in the know enough. SampleModeling's The Sax Brothers and The Saxophones and LinPlug's SaxLab come to mind along with others already mentioned. I have not used so can't say if worthwhile.


----------



## Cathbad (Jun 13, 2020)

bill5 said:


> I think you mean Wynton. Branford has a much less militant attitude about it all (or did last I heard, maybe not any more).


You could be right. I've heard much more stuff like that from Wynton.

In my opinion, Branford is the clear star of the family. Absolutely brilliant musician.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 13, 2020)

I don't feel qualified to say frankly but I'd call that a draw at best.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic (Jun 13, 2020)

bbunker said:


> You know, I read this a few times and worked around a few reactions. On the one hand I'm not surprised because it feels like something of a niche library, and a lot of people who may not know who Wayne is would not get the appeal of it, and so on and so forth.
> 
> Honestly, though - just from my own experience - the biggest detractor on the Screaming Trumpet might be that it sits by itself on the shelf. There's no "Sassy Trombone" or "Squawking Saxes" or - even better, "LA Big Band toolkit" with all of them together so that you know that they're at least intended to be used together, with a similar set of articulations and switching parameters, and with similarly recorded materials.
> 
> ...


Heck yes. I'd be the first (well maybe second) to check it out!


----------



## Casiquire (Jun 13, 2020)

Am I going crazy, or did SampleModeling once have saxophones but they're no longer on the site? I was going to bring them up as an example of a company who would likely have done it right, but they're gone from the site now. I clearly recall them having about three sax libraries.


----------



## mekosmowski (Jun 13, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> Balkan band music is another side to the sax (very oud-influenced)


Sax and oud? I need to go check this out!


----------



## Cathbad (Jun 13, 2020)

mekosmowski said:


> Sax and oud? I need to go check this out!


Something to start you off.


----------



## PerryD (Jun 13, 2020)

Please sample Leo & Grace.


----------



## Virtuoso (Jun 13, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> Am I going crazy, or did SampleModeling once have saxophones but they're no longer on the site? I was going to bring them up as an example of a company who would likely have done it right, but they're gone from the site now. I clearly recall them having about three sax libraries.


A few years ago the people who developed the 'Sax Brothers' products left to start a new company, Audio Modeling. The Saxes now run under their own 'SWAM' engine rather than Kontakt.


----------



## mekosmowski (Jun 13, 2020)

So, my head has been killing me all day. If the Balkan band music helps, does that mean I'm having a stroke and not just a migraine? 

Stuff is good! The contrapuntual layering reminds me of Bach.


----------



## MSutherlandComp (Jun 13, 2020)

In my own experience trying to sample a Saxophone, it's just ... a lot of work. It's such an unbelievably nuanced instrument. +1 Sample Modeling-style libs IMO.

Though, I always just spring for an actual Saxophonist. It's just a ridiculous amount of bang for your buck. Truth be told, my current process when writing for Saxophones is just to sketch with the (now ancient) samples on my Sound Canvas, and then hash out the details in a one-on-one with the musician.

Here is a clip of a WIP (basically still in the writing session) I'm doing right now where the saxophonist is front-and-center. Very messy programming, and there's a little "blip" at the end, but you get the point: 




Best Sax lib I ever used was Glory Days, and even that just wasn't anywhere near the level of a performer. My programming chops are not the best, though.


----------



## ahorsewhocandrive (Jun 13, 2020)

if anyone need some bari sax i can record for u here is example of my work https://www.dropbox.com/s/f82qsiuonefm1vu/Casino - Bari stereo bus.wav?dl=0


----------



## ahorsewhocandrive (Jun 13, 2020)

i think theres not a lot of saxophone libraries because they cant do this


----------



## re-peat (Jun 13, 2020)

mekosmowski said:


> Sax and oud? I need to go check this out!



*Here’s a great example of a saxophone — well, two saxophones — used more like a traditional ethnic wind instrument.* This is an (interpretation of an) old Macedonian dance called “Pravo Sareshko”, from the superb album “Traditional Music From The Balkans” by Nikola Parov. Released on Harmonia Mundi.

- - -

On the subject of virtual saxophones: impossible. Unvirtualizeable. For the time being anyway. Apart from the fact that, like Rob already said, the timbre of a saxophone changes and inflects dramatically (or subtly) with every expressive nuance — making the saxophone’s also one of the most phrase- and context-sensitive timbres of any instrument (and therein lies the reason it simply can’t be sampled) —, a saxophone, at least in jazz music, also takes on, much more than most other instruments, much of the personality of who’s playing it. You’ll never mistake Art Pepper for Paul Desmond or Sony Stitt. Or Johnny Hodges for Ornette Coleman. Or Sam Rivers for Joshua Redman. Or Wayne Shorter for Joe Henderson … (And that list is almost as long as there are jazz saxophonists.)

- - -

While I don’t agree that jazz is dead — I’m still buying new albums with more or less the same frequency as I have been doing for the past 30 years, and the number of outstanding ones hasn’t really diminshed over the years, I find — I do agree with the comments about the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra. That’s not jazz. That’s risk-free, blasé, bourgeois, jazzoïd emptyness.

Curious thing, really, cause that band features mostly excellent and adventurous musicians, many of whom have done very exciting excursions on their own, and yet, as soon as they sail under the LCJO flag, things turn stale, formulaïc and pristinely uninteresting.

_


----------



## jimjazzuk (Jun 14, 2020)

I think one of the main problems with sampling (jazz) saxes is that every player has a different sound (compare Coltrane to Lester Young, Parker to Johnny Hodges... then compare them to the more modern sound people like). Pretty much every sampled saxophone I've ever heard sounds like the people making the samples have never heard those famous players. The SWAM demos are all 'smooth jazz' in style, and that is a totally different sound to those mentioned above. 

Most of the sax writing I would want to do would be big band in style, with sax voicings in block chords. This needs a different sound from 'soloing sax'. At the moment I don't think the technology is there yet to attempt any saxophone solos. If you've ever heard even a beginner saxophonist play a real instrument you'll know how fake the saxes still sound.


----------



## Cathbad (Jun 14, 2020)

re-peat said:


> Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra. That’s not jazz. That’s risk-free, blasé, bourgeois, jazzoïd emptyness.
> 
> Curious thing, really, cause that band features mostly excellent and adventurous musicians, many of whom have done very exciting excursions on their own, and yet, as soon as they sail under the LCJO flag, things turn stale, formulaïc and pristinely uninteresting.



100% agree. It's like they're providing The Jazz Experience at an arts theme park. Awesome musicians in the band, although I'm not a particular fan of Wynton.

Perhaps the problem with sampling saxes isn't the saxophone itself, but the individuality of jazz tone and phrasing: the genre most associated with the instrument. Comments above seem more satisfied with "classical" aspects - where consistency and conformity are more emphasised - of sax libraries. It would be a tough task for a trumpet library to cover Louis Armstrong, Miles, Diz AND Bubber Miley. Or a trombone library to do Jack Teagarden, Tommy Dorsey, Frank Rosolino and Carl Fontana.


----------



## DSmolken (Jun 14, 2020)

re-peat said:


> You’ll never mistake Art Pepper for Paul Desmond or Sony Stitt. Or Johnny Hodges for Ornette Coleman. Or Sam Rivers for Joshua Redman. Or Wayne Shorter for Joe Henderson …


I do wonder... has this been researched? Like, what's the accuracy of experts at telling Coltrane from Parker in a blind test? I'm sure it would be better than a coin flip, but how much better? 60, 90 or 100%?


----------



## Technostica (Jun 14, 2020)

DSmolken said:


> I do wonder... has this been researched? Like, what's the accuracy of experts at telling Coltrane from Parker in a blind test? I'm sure it would be better than a coin flip, but how much better? 60, 90 or 100%?


Coltrane played Tenor and Soprano whilst Parker played Alto. 
Even ignoring that, some players are very distinctive and that's a combination of tone and phrasing.
Coltrane is distinctive on both fronts.
I can often tell him and some others from a handful of notes alone.
The same with some guitarists with BB King being one.


----------



## re-peat (Jun 14, 2020)

DSmolken said:


> I do wonder... has this been researched? Like, what's the accuracy of experts at telling Coltrane from Parker in a blind test? I'm sure it would be better than a coin flip, but how much better? 60, 90 or 100%?



Surely, anyone with more than a passing interest in jazz can immediately tell — and yes, with 100% certainty — whether they’re listening to Cannonball Adderley or Paul Desmond? (Both altoïsts, but with a to-tal-ly different sound.) Or whether it’s Bennie Wallace or Stan Getz on tenor? (Again, utterly inconceivable to mistake one for the other.)

I’m not saying that every single jazz saxophonist has an equally individual sound, and among the less celebrated names there are indeed numerous players who are less obvious to identify (based solely on their timbre, I mean), but any name worthy of a chapter in "The Definitive History Of Jazz Saxophonists" does have a very personal and distinct sound. A sound as personal and distinct, in fact, as the timbre of their voice.

Charlie Rouse, Coleman Hawkins, Hank Mobley, Benny Golson, Dexter Gordon, Chris Potter, Paul Gonzalves, Joe Lovano, Al Cohn, Booker Ervin, Lucky Thompson, Lester Young, George Coleman, … no jazz lover will ever fail to recognize any of these players’ unique sound. And among altoists: no way that anyone who’s devoted to jazz music would ever mistake Charlie Parker for Lee Konitz, or Phil Woods for Eric Dolphy, or Benny Carter for Jackie McLean ...

If you’re interested, I can make an audio collage of some of these players, showing the huge timbral differences. You’ll immediately hear that there is no research necessary to establish that fact.

_


----------



## DSmolken (Jun 14, 2020)

re-peat said:


> If you’re interested, I can make an audio collage of some of these players, showing the huge timbral differences. You’ll immediately hear that there is no research necessary to establish that fact.


Go for it, but I'm still not convinced it'd be 100%. There's a lot of variation between the songs over which a particular player would solo, too, so they're not always completely embodying their typical style.

I mean, I'm a bassist, and I can imagine a scenario where I'm given an isolated bassline that's either Dee Dee Ramone or Lee Sklar, and I get it wrong. Sure, I'd be right most of the time. But 100%, no.

Which is getting kinda off-topic, but to bring it back, if there really are readily identifiable timbral differences, it does make it harder to sell solo sax libraries because they're doomed to either be bland or very style-specific.


----------



## Casiquire (Jun 14, 2020)

Virtuoso said:


> A few years ago the people who developed the 'Sax Brothers' products left to start a new company, Audio Modeling. The Saxes now run under their own 'SWAM' engine rather than Kontakt.


I looked at AudioModeling too thinking i was just mixed up, but I didn't see it on their product list. They don't seem to sell it individually anymore but I did find it as part of a bundle of all their products

The fact that these saxes, which the modeling concept is PERFECT for, and the company behind which produced some extremely well regarded brass among enthusiasts here, are relegated to just part of a bundle of other products and not even available on their own...I think it speaks to the demand for sax libraries, I'm afraid


----------



## Casiquire (Jun 14, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> They are available on their own:
> 
> https://audiomodeling.com/solo-woodwinds/swam-saxophones/


My bad, i clicked on brass 😆


----------



## toomanynotes (Jun 14, 2020)

Can someone tell me if there is a library that can handle the way this greased up gentleman plays sax?


----------



## Rob (Jun 14, 2020)

re-peat said:


> Surely, anyone with more than passing interest in jazz can immediately tell — and yes, with 100% certainty — whether they’re listening to Cannonball Adderley or Paul Desmond? (Both altoïsts, but with a to-tal-ly different sound.) Or whether it’s Bennie Wallace or Stan Getz on tenor? (Again, utterly inconceivable to mistake one for the other.)
> 
> I’m not saying that every single jazz saxophonist has an equally individual sound, and among the less celebrated names there are indeed numerous players who are less obvious to identify (based solely on their timbre, I mean), but any name worthy of a chapter in "The Definitive History Of Jazz Saxophonists" does have a very personal and distinct sound. A sound as personal and distinct, in fact, as the timbre of their voice.
> 
> ...


absolutely agree... now, if a similar instrument was created, a virtual sax capable of every nuance, every possible technique a sax can produce, we would face another kind of problem... the performer's musical soul would be totally naked, totally exposed and reflected in the music she/he produces. (this is already partially true with modeled instruments)


----------



## ahorsewhocandrive (Jun 14, 2020)

toomanynotes said:


> Can someone tell me if there is a library that can handle the way this greased up gentleman plays sax?



swam would be good at this imo


----------



## toomanynotes (Jun 14, 2020)

audiosprite said:


> swam would be good at this imo


I applaud how you kept your professionalism and not comment on how absurd the oiled up rock god scene is. Thank you, it means a lot to me.


----------



## Technostica (Jun 14, 2020)

DSmolken said:


> ... if there really are readily identifiable timbral differences, it does make it harder to sell solo sax libraries because they're doomed to either be bland or very style-specific.


I'd say it's more like the human voice in that singers have individual timbres and people still buy solo voice libraries. No idea if that is a big market compared to choirs libraries though!


----------



## ahorsewhocandrive (Jun 14, 2020)

toomanynotes said:


> I applaud how you kept your professionalism and not comment on how absurd the oiled up rock god scene is. Thank you, it means a lot to me.


hes hot idk


----------



## Polkasound (Jun 14, 2020)

toomanynotes said:


> Can someone tell me if there is a library that can handle the way this greased up gentleman plays sax?



Skip to 2:32



I ran into that situation when I recorded an 80s-style pop tune a couple months ago, because I needed the sax to get a little dirty. I used the SWAM alto sax which has variable flutter, growl, and overblown notes. I chose not to create a video though, because I couldn't find any grease.


----------



## re-peat (Jun 14, 2020)

DSmolken said:


> Go for it, but I'm still not convinced it'd be 100%.



Here are *8 alto players* and *9 tenor players*.

Altos: Sonny Stitt / Paul Desmond / Cannonball Adderley / Eric Dolphy / Johnny Hodges / Lee Konitz / Charlie Mariano / Phil Woods

Tenors: George Coleman / Dexter Gordon / Stan Getz / Paul Gonzalves / Bennie Wallace / Charlie Rouse / Coleman Hawkins / John Coltrane / Ben Webster

_


----------



## bill5 (Jun 14, 2020)

Rob said:


> absolutely agree... now, if a similar instrument was created, a virtual sax capable of every nuance, every possible technique a sax can produce, we would face another kind of problem... the performer's musical soul would be totally naked, totally exposed and reflected in the music she/he produces. (this is already partially true with modeled instruments)


Well kinda but I think not quite, because it would be in "pieces" (notes, articulations) - a performer "baring their soul" is about the entire solo, not just a single note.

I do think sax libraries can and will get better, though of course never to the level of a live performer, but I'd say that about most if not all instruments.


----------



## Mark Schmieder (Jun 14, 2020)

Years ago, there was a complaint that there was too much Sax and Violins on TV. The string players, being sensitive folks, negotiated behind the scenes for an exemption, but the sax players just got egged on and outwore their welcome. And so here we are!


----------



## g.c. (Jun 14, 2020)

re-peat said:


> Surely, anyone with more than a passing interest in jazz can immediately tell — and yes, with 100% certainty — whether they’re listening to Cannonball Adderley or Paul Desmond? (Both altoïsts, but with a to-tal-ly different sound.) Or whether it’s Bennie Wallace or Stan Getz on tenor? (Again, utterly inconceivable to mistake one for the other.)
> 
> I’m not saying that every single jazz saxophonist has an equally individual sound, and among the less celebrated names there are indeed numerous players who are less obvious to identify (based solely on their timbre, I mean), but any name worthy of a chapter in "The Definitive History Of Jazz Saxophonists" does have a very personal and distinct sound. A sound as personal and distinct, in fact, as the timbre of their voice.
> 
> ...


----------



## g.c. (Jun 14, 2020)

It's not only sax players, to whom I'm going to add Ben Webster, Donny Mc Caslin, Michael Brecker, Gerry Mulligan, Warne Marsh, Oliver Nelson and Pepper Adams.
In jazz , the same can be said of all chairs, even of Piano players and misc percussionists, ie Airto.
Writer, arrangers, I mean I know within 2 beats of an intro whether Im hearing Bob Brookmeyer, Thad Jones, Quincy Jones, Bob Florence, Gerald Wilson or Manny Albam, not to forget bands, Ellington, Basie, Gil Evans, Michael Leonhart, off track here, but it seems that with such a singularly distinguished music that there would be a way find the tools for creating expression.
Maybe, for today, some combo of the Leap Motion, Roli, and Modelling technologies.
g.c.


----------



## robcs (Jun 14, 2020)

mekosmowski said:


> Is sax still regularly used in wind bands? (Whether there's any overlap in wind band writers and sample library users is another story.)
> 
> For modeled winds, are keys with control surfaces preferred over an EWI-type controller?



very much so - the sax choir (2 altos, tenor, and baritone) is one of the core sounds of the wind band. I guess I’m pretty much the only person in that overlap, however 

As for control, EWIs are great for woodwind players, but not every wind composer/arranger is a sax virtuoso. Personally, I’m a brass And keyboard player, and while I have an EWI, it barely gets used because I can improvise far better and more efficiently on keys. for expression, CC faders are fine up to a point, but they still don’t give a real wind feel, so I’ve got a breath controller on order from TEControl


----------



## mekosmowski (Jun 14, 2020)

I'm hoping to get a TEC 2 too after we move. I've also been given spousal approval to upgrade my 88 key controller if we do not move the Korg C3500 again. Will you use an expression pedal with the TEC? Would a ribbon controller be useful? (The Kurzweil PC4 is tempting.)


----------



## robcs (Jun 14, 2020)

mekosmowski said:


> I'm hoping to get a TEC 2 too after we move. I've also been given spousal approval to upgrade my 88 key controller if we do not move the Korg C3500 again. Will you use an expression pedal with the TEC? Would a ribbon controller be useful? (The Kurzweil PC4 is tempting.)


with the TEC BBC2 a pedal or ribbon shouldn’t be needed - it can control up to 4 CCs at the same time by tracking head movement alongside breath and bite. So, I’m hoping it’ll free up my left hand for articulation switching lol


----------



## jimjazzuk (Jun 15, 2020)

I was fairly skeptical about SM Brass.... until I bought it yesterday... and I don't think the demos on the Sample Modelling website do it justice. I'm even more skeptical about SWAM saxes... I have no intention to use them in a solo context, just in situ in a big band context (i.e. no solos, just block chords, solis etc). Any users here care to try and change my mind and blow me away with your SWAM sax big band tunes?!


----------



## Rob (Jun 15, 2020)

jimjazzuk said:


> I was fairly skeptical about SM Brass.... until I bought it yesterday... and I don't think the demos on the Sample Modelling website do it justice. I'm even more skeptical about SWAM saxes... I have no intention to use them in a solo context, just in situ in a big band context (i.e. no solos, just block chords, solis etc). Any users here care to try and change my mind and blow me away with your SWAM sax big band tunes?!


in reality I think the Swam saxes shine exactly in solo context, where they are much more flexible than others


----------



## Rob (Jun 15, 2020)

there's this old example I did time ago, of three little passages with the swam saxes:


----------



## lux (Jun 15, 2020)

its because the nineties nuked a lot of things, too often with no reason. Just because it wasnt cool enough at the time. Sax almost disappeared from pop. As much as classic metal disappeared from rock major scenes, and so on. There was like a "coolness" police at the time. I was there and probably was part of the problem like anyone else.

Actually Sax library means mostly jazz or "retro" mimicking mockups. Not exactly what moves hundreds thousands people to open their wallets. I'm personally not a fan of Jazz played with samples, unless you have really something excellent compositionally to put on the table. Although I've heard very tasty music from Roberto and Piet (just to mention two members who are posting on this thread), but, otherwise, it's often delusional.

Sax is one of those instruments who would need like a public revamping action, an act of justice, as imho its been a casualty out of an undeserved war.

I so much frequently listen to one of my favourite overall songs from the eighties, Tears for fears' The Working Hour, and that sax intro never never ceases to amaze me.


----------



## jimjazzuk (Jun 15, 2020)

Rob said:


> there's this old example I did time ago, of three little passages with the swam saxes:


Thanks Rob, that's very interesting.


----------



## DSmolken (Jun 15, 2020)

re-peat said:


> Here are *8 alto players* and *9 tenor players*.
> 
> Altos: Sonny Stitt / Paul Desmond / Cannonball Adderley / Eric Dolphy / Johnny Hodges / Lee Konitz / Charlie Mariano / Phil Woods
> 
> ...


Thanks. Not that I have plans to make a sax library intended for soloing anytime soon, but I just like to disassemble this kind of stuff in my mind. We're getting better at modeling instruments, I think there's a lot of potential for modeling players. Not so much note choice and timing - composers can provide that - but the details like the way pitch and dynamics change during note transitions, vibrato style and use... Sax obviously would be very interesting there.


----------



## MAA (Jun 15, 2020)

I used sax on one of the recent scores I did and at first thought about searching for a library but found a player and am so glad I did. She added so much to my original ideas and improvised a ton of stuff for me to sprinkle in places. Plus the sax was super easy to record, a simple SM57 was perfect for it, barely had to do any processesing during the mixing stage. No way I could program anything like that in the time frame I had.


----------



## mekosmowski (Jun 15, 2020)

lux said:


> I'm personally not a fan of Jazz played with samples, unless you have really something excellent compositionally to put on the table.


Do you have any advice for achieving this compositional excellence?


----------



## Mike Greene (Jun 15, 2020)

re-peat said:


> Here are *8 alto players* and *9 tenor players*.
> 
> Altos: Sonny Stitt / Paul Desmond / Cannonball Adderley / Eric Dolphy / Johnny Hodges / Lee Konitz / Charlie Mariano / Phil Woods
> 
> ...


Thank for doing this, Piet. It not only proves your point (IMO), but it's a hell of a lot of fun to listen to!


----------



## mekosmowski (Jun 15, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> Thank for doing this, Piet. It not only proves your point (IMO), but it's a hell of a lot of fun to listen to!


Listening to that last alto piece though, I wouldn't have thought the keys could move that fast! Never again will I hesitate to write 64th notes at 210 bpm, lol!


----------



## lux (Jun 15, 2020)

mekosmowski said:


> Do you have any advice for achieving this compositional excellence?



I wasnt being a smartass with that statement. What I meant is that for me listening to a nice composition sometimes helps my ears being more indulgent with samples performance. With jazz that's even more pronounced for me, probably I just can't get rid of that "old smokey club with real humans" concept.

Anyway, I'm definitely the less versed in the world to help achieving any excellence of sort, go figure compositionally.

You have a good bunch of guys on this thread which are perfect for getting that advice. Just so to speak.


----------



## g.c. (Jun 15, 2020)

Rob said:


> there's this old example I did time ago, of three little passages with the swam saxes:


----------



## g.c. (Jun 15, 2020)

Rob, have you tried any of the Super Sax-ie Parker things with Swam. I've not heard them played with great speed in any demo. It's why I haven't gone for them . I had the earlier Sam Mod saxes but the range factors in transitioning to score and when trying them out by playing fast versions of the Nelson Patterns or parts from pieces like "4 Brothers" (admittedly much faster then anything I'd heard from Hermans band, about 190bpm) I found flying through rapid key movements resulted in a "synthy" sound. I don't get this when playing runs with strings.
They were fine with Basie genre things, but also just didn't have enough "meat" on them to effectively make Thad Jones-Gerald Wilson types of INNER voices work effectively (for me)
I'm really wanting to pull the trigger on Swam, however I seem to continue hesitating.
If you don't mind, would, in your opinion Swam accomplish the Parker stuff, and secondly, are they meaty/dark enough to make altered inner voicings project?
Thanks-
g.c.


----------



## Rob (Jun 16, 2020)

g.c. said:


> Rob, have you tried any of the Super Sax-ie Parker things with Swam. I've not heard them played with great speed in any demo. It's why I haven't gone for them . I had the earlier Sam Mod saxes but the range factors in transitioning to score and when trying them out by playing fast versions of the Nelson Patterns or parts from pieces like "4 Brothers" (admittedly much faster then anything I'd heard from Hermans band, about 190bpm) I found flying through rapid key movements resulted in a "synthy" sound. I don't get this when playing runs with strings.
> They were fine with Basie genre things, but also just didn't have enough "meat" on them to effectively make Thad Jones-Gerald Wilson types of INNER voices work effectively (for me)
> I'm really wanting to pull the trigger on Swam, however I seem to continue hesitating.
> If you don't mind, would, in your opinion Swam accomplish the Parker stuff, and secondly, are they meaty/dark enough to make altered inner voicings project?
> ...


they can play at any speed, no problem there... legato and timbre are the two aspects I still find can use some improvement... but the agility is unparalleled imo

EDIT: uploaded a version with a gentler attack...


----------



## Pianolando (Jun 16, 2020)

Sampled saxes are as close to hell as you can come in the sampling world. That’s why.


----------



## jimjazzuk (Jun 16, 2020)

Rob said:


> they can play at any speed, no problem there... legato and timbre are the two aspects I still find can use some improvement... but the agility is unparalleled imo


There is just something unnatural about the legato and timbre like you say. The tone seems wrong (no matter which famous jazz saxist you compare it to). There's a hard edge to to the start of the note that sounds weird too. 

Does anyone here have Glory Days who wishes to give us some demos?


----------



## Rob (Jun 16, 2020)

jimjazzuk said:


> There is just something unnatural about the legato and timbre like you say. The tone seems wrong (no matter which famous jazz saxist you compare it to). There's a hard edge to to the start of the note that sounds weird too.
> 
> Does anyone here have Glory Days who wishes to give us some demos?


yeah... however I use "hard attack" which has this distinct snap, it helps give accents to the phrase...
if it can help I can post the midi, for others to try different saxes...


----------



## mekosmowski (Jun 16, 2020)

So, would it be completely insane to combine attack and maybe release from one library with legato phrases from another? (I'm expecting the answer to be, "Yes! And stop being such a daft newb!")


----------



## Rory (Jun 16, 2020)

Interesting discussion. I've now added saxophone to the list of virtual instruments that I won't be purchasing. Luckily, where I live there's no shortage of living, breathing sax players, although I see that some participants say that I shouldn't look for one anywhere near Lincoln Center


----------



## bill5 (Jun 16, 2020)

I think there are some quality backgrounds and section work you can do, just not much in the way of solos.


----------



## FC Rolls (Jun 16, 2020)

Rob said:


> they can play at any speed, no problem there... legato and timbre are the two aspects I still find can use some improvement... but the agility is unparalleled imo
> 
> EDIT: uploaded a version with a gentler attack...


This sounds great!
Is there any way to show the settings for people like me who
are not that good at this?
I have Swam Saxes and a breath controler +Mojo2, but can't get them to sound anything like the demos.
Thanks!


----------



## bill5 (Jun 16, 2020)

I never thought of a breath controller...I would think that would help a lot with sax


----------



## Rob (Jun 17, 2020)

FC Rolls said:


> This sounds great!
> Is there any way to show the settings for people like me who
> are not that good at this?
> I have Swam Saxes and a breath controler +Mojo2, but can't get them to sound anything like the demos.
> Thanks!


thank you! Here are three screenshots of the settings I used:
EDIT: I wonder why the microtuning is all messed up, it wasn't supposed to be that way...


----------



## FC Rolls (Jun 17, 2020)

Rob said:


> thank you! Here are three screenshots of the settings I used:
> EDIT: I wonder why the microtuning is all messed up, it wasn't supposed to be that way...


Thanks a lot. 
They take your money but don't tell amateurs how to use it
or set it up.
I'll work on this later today.


----------



## Rob (Jun 17, 2020)

and please disregard those microtuning settings, they make no sense...


----------



## lelepar (Jun 18, 2020)

Rob said:


> and please disregard those microtuning settings, they make no sense...



Hi Rob, the problem is that you have a VERY OLD version (v2.6.1 was released in 2016). We have fixed and improved MANY things since then. Please update to the latest v2.9.0 at https://my.audiomodeling.com


----------



## lelepar (Jun 18, 2020)

FC Rolls said:


> Thanks a lot.
> They take your money but don't tell amateurs how to use it
> or set it up.
> I'll work on this later today.



Have you ever contacted our support? We are always open to help, indeed.


----------



## Rob (Jun 18, 2020)

lelepar said:


> Hi Rob, the problem is that you have a VERY OLD version (v2.6.1 was released in 2016). We have fixed and improved MANY things since then. Please update to the latest v2.9.0 at https://my.audiomodeling.com


oops... sorry Lele, will do soon


----------



## ptram (Jun 18, 2020)

Everybody is asking something different from a sax, and there are many different answers to the question. Also, everybody has a different idea of what 'jazz' is, and the canon someone is trying to impose is just one of the possible faces of a seed that has germinated and hybridized so many other styles.

We are accustomed to samples of instruments coming from the classical Western art music, where playing clean is a merit. A. Sax invented a classical instrument that had to be louder than others, then the Americans transformed it into something not only loud, but also 'crazy'.

So, we had to wait for the craze of contemporary art music to rediscover it. And, in the meantime, all kinds of 'popular' music continued to use it, as the best and loudest heir of all reed wind instruments from the tradition, down to the remote antiquity.

Balkan music has it as the heir of instruments like the zurna. Central European Jews (and the New York ones) have the soprano sax as the heir of the ancient trumpet and the tenor sax of the shofar. Italians love soprano sax as a replacement of ciaramella and launeddas, in the 'Mediterranean' jazz or the latest decades.

There is no way to capture the craze of these sounds, so far from the elegant, composed sound of classical music instruments. It's the last acoustic instrument we really have to learn.

Paolo


----------



## Rob (Jun 18, 2020)

ptram said:


> Everybody is asking something different from a sax, and there are many different answers to the question. Also, everybody has a different idea of what 'jazz' is, and the canon someone is trying to impose is just one of the possible faces of a seed that has germinated and hybridized so many other styles.
> ...


not for those that perform jazz music... to them it's very clear what a jazz saxophone sounds like.


----------



## jimjazzuk (Jun 18, 2020)

@lelepar It would be great if you have any big band/jazz sectional samples you can post?


----------



## richhickey (Jun 18, 2020)

Rob said:


> yeah... however I use "hard attack" which has this distinct snap, it helps give accents to the phrase...
> if it can help I can post the midi, for others to try different saxes...



That (MIDI for scrapple example) would be great, Rob, thanks!


----------



## lelepar (Jun 18, 2020)

jimjazzuk said:


> @lelepar It would be great if you have any big band/jazz sectional samples you can post?



Here is an example performed by composer Bruce Miller. It shows both SWAM Saxophones and SWAM Solo Brass in a big band.


----------



## Zedcars (Jun 18, 2020)

I should wear my glasses next time I visit this site...thought this was about a lack of something else...


----------



## Rob (Jun 18, 2020)

So here's the midi of the sax track, and an updated version with most recent release of the Swams... don't hate me Lele, I've now rendered the track to mono and equed to resemble the original track from the 40s. So the alto sounds muffled in comparison to the out of the box sound. But I think it works great, and in general it sounds better, smoother legato and better timbre. Kudos to the Swam team:


----------



## lelepar (Jun 18, 2020)

Rob said:


> So here's the midi of the sax track, and an updated version with most recent release of the Swams... don't hate me Lele, I've now rendered the track to mono and equed to resemble the original track from the 40s. So the alto sounds muffled in comparison to the out of the box sound. But I think it works great, and in general it sounds better, smoother legato and better timbre. Kudos to the Swam team:



Rob, you know that I do not hate you at all. All AM team loves you!  
SWAM were born to be tweaked and to find the sound and behavior that most suits the user needs. It's impossible to set an out-to-the-box sound that is ok for everybody.
What we will do with SWAM v3, as we are doing with SWAM Solo Brass, is to offer a few presets as a starting point.


----------



## richhickey (Jun 18, 2020)

Rob said:


> So here's the midi of the sax track, and an updated version with most recent release of the Swams... don't hate me Lele, I've now rendered the track to mono and equed to resemble the original track from the 40s. So the alto sounds muffled in comparison to the out of the box sound. But I think it works great, and in general it sounds better, smoother legato and better timbre. Kudos to the Swam team:



Thanks Rob!

Here's a version with VSL's sax. I did not edit the notes, didn't use the velocities, didn't edit the expression CCs! Just picked articulations and toggled velocity XF.

And if anyone is interested here's a screen capture so you can see DP and VI Pro in action:



The VSL sax has many legatos - vib/non-vib/grace notes/fast/trill/marcato etc. I mostly selected between them mechanically in accordance with the melody. I don't use velocities but I have a script which turns expression into velocity. Then I can just toggle velocity XF on and off depending on whether a note is held. Otherwise leaving it off yields the most articulate sound.


----------



## FC Rolls (Jun 18, 2020)

Rob said:


> So here's the midi of the sax track, and an updated version with most recent release of the Swams... don't hate me Lele, I've now rendered the track to mono and equed to resemble the original track from the 40s. So the alto sounds muffled in comparison to the out of the box sound. But I think it works great, and in general it sounds better, smoother legato and better timbre. Kudos to the Swam team:


WOW!
I put this in my logic with the default alto and it sounded great.
I'm noway near as good as the people on this site, you all are amazing.
I do this for fun.
It's nice having presets if you don't know what your doing.

Thanks Again


----------



## Rob (Jun 18, 2020)

richhickey said:


> Thanks Rob!
> 
> Here's a version with VSL's sax. I did not edit the notes, didn't use the velocities, didn't edit the expression CCs! Just picked articulations and toggled velocity XF.


Thank you Rich for this example... timbre is nice, connections between notes though don't work very well. Every now and then I hear a doubled sound. And, and this is an effect of legato transitions I believe, the sound of the room pops out in between notes giving a distracting effect. I wouldn't use this in a production...


----------



## richhickey (Jun 18, 2020)

Rob said:


> Thank you Rich for this example... timbre is nice, connections between notes though don't work very well. Every now and then I hear a doubled sound. And, and this is an effect of legato transitions I believe, the sound of the room pops out in between notes giving a distracting effect. I wouldn't use this in a production...



Well, there's no backing track  I think it sounds pretty decent for not customizing the performance whatsoever - was about 1/2 hour of work. Those few remaining overlaps could be ironed out by adjusting the note durations, which I avoided.

I also have the SWAM saxes and there are definite tradeoffs in both directions. SWAM is great for live playing and riding dynamics. But the legatos (for all of their winds) never capture the diversity of what happens as keys are pressed and released while notes are sustaining. Also they do not have a sufficient diversity of attacks, IMO. So I go back and forth between them and VSL. 

Anyway, I think it's clear there _are_ viable options for sax, as difficult an instrument as it is. Thanks again for the MIDI.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 18, 2020)

Rob said:


> not for those that perform jazz music... to them it's very clear what a jazz saxophone sounds like.


It's clear to some who don't even perform jazz.  

I also disagree with " There is no way to capture the craze of these sounds," (I think, i.e. if I understood how the word "craze" is being used there), but I agree it is one of the most challenging.


----------



## ReelToLogic (Jun 18, 2020)

Does anyone have any experience with 8Dio's newest Sax library? I've been tempted by the demo's but would like to hear from someone who has purchased it and used it. 

https://8dio.com/instrument/studio-tenor-saxophone/


----------



## Noeticus (Jun 18, 2020)

ReelToLogic said:


> Does anyone have any experience with 8Dio's newest Sax library? I've been tempted by the demo's but would like to hear from someone who has purchased it and used it.
> 
> https://8dio.com/instrument/studio-tenor-saxophone/



This is impressive.

I have always wanted a "Blade Runner" sax sort of sound and this is close.


----------



## agarner32 (Jun 18, 2020)

I messed around with the SWAM tenor and VG flugelhorn. I might as well throw mine out there. The usual thing people always say, "I just threw this together quickly." Actually I did this as a play-along for my college combo class last semester, but I added the two solos this afternoon.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 18, 2020)

Noeticus said:


> This is impressive.
> 
> I have always wanted a "Blade Runner" sax sort of sound and this is close.


I wouldn't say impressive, but it is very good IMO. Course notice the sample tracks aren't overly expressive, kind of "playing it safe." Which isn't all bad just an observation.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 18, 2020)

agarner32 said:


> I messed around with the SWAM tenor and VG flugelhorn. I might as well throw mine out there. The usual thing people always say, "I just threw this together quickly." Actually I did this as a play-along for my college combo class last semester, but I added the two solos this afternoon.



Really well done. The sax sounds more realistic then the flugelhorn IMO (i.e. the sound itself; your playing was great on both...didn't sound like a keyboard player using a patch). Man horns are just hard!


----------



## agarner32 (Jun 18, 2020)

bill5 said:


> The sax sounds more realistic then the flugelhorn IMO


Thanks Bill5. Yeah,I agree about the flugelhorn not as good. I think if I took more care in how I played it the sound could have been a little better. I also could have done some editing in places that may have overlapped a little which always makes wind instruments sound fake - or strings for that matter. I just got the VG flugelhorn, but I think the Sample Modeling is better.

And thanks for saying I didn't play it like a pianist. I try to be aware of breathing although I'm not always successful.


----------



## bill5 (Jun 19, 2020)

Re the flugel, it might just be the patch  Can't say, but it does seem horns in general seem to be the hardest to get right re plugins. And you're welcome on the playing - for most of us I think it is not an easy thing to learn or "get!" One thing that helps me is when I listen to an actual sax or guitar player or whatever, I imagine myself playing those notes on a keyboard - helped me to visualize how to play.


----------



## agarner32 (Jun 19, 2020)

Bill5, you are probably right about it being the patch, but I’m going to try again to see if I can make it sound better. Thanks for the input.


----------



## WarpIV (Sep 16, 2020)

I do almost NO marketing of my libraries since I am swamped with work from my software company, but I produced an awesome sax library a few years ago with Eric Marienthal. I had originally released the Contemporary Sax (soprano, alto, tenor, baritone), Jazz Flute, and Jazz Clarinet libraries a long time ago, but I went back to the studio with Eric and recorded a TON more articulations for the new release. One of the big things I did was greatly expand true legato with all kinds of ways to transition between notes. I don't use SIPS anymore (like I did in the original libraries), but wrote my own scripts to support all the features I wanted, and to do it with minimal CPU overheads. The new library has SO many articulations that you would run out of keys to implement them all on a keyboard, so it uses a two-key system to select articulations within a bank of related articulations. You can still use one key to select the primary articulation, but a second key can give you the variations. The 6 instruments are mapped identically, which lets you easily copy parts.

I have a video on YouTube that describes the features of the woodwinds for anyone interested. Here is the link.



Also, I've attached to this post a demo that I put together that highlights the woodwinds, my WarpIV PRO Trumpets and Trombones (Wayne Bergeron and Andy Martin) and especially the Jazz Flute. It's kind of a Pink Panther vibe. If you listen to the demo, note that all of the smooth runs between notes are using the true legato.

Here is the link to my website, if you want more information about the libraries.





__





WarpIV Music Production






www.warpivmusic.com





In case anyone is interested, I am developing a new (and totally unique) 3D Monster Drum Kit library. It will hopefully be released next year around Thanksgiving. Everything about this library is different from what you are probably used to. Each snare drum has, for example, 35 articulations... If there is interest, I can start a new thread to give more details. I will be wrapping up recording by the end off the year. Most of the software is already in place and I've even produced a couple of demos that I've shared with a few friends.


----------



## Bollen (Sep 16, 2020)

WarpIV said:


> I do almost NO marketing of my libraries since I am swamped with work from my software company, but I produced an awesome sax library a few years ago with Eric Marienthal. I had originally released the Contemporary Sax (soprano, alto, tenor, baritone), Jazz Flute, and Jazz Clarinet libraries a long time ago, but I went back to the studio with Eric and recorded a TON more articulations for the new release. One of the big things I did was greatly expand true legato with all kinds of ways to transition between notes. I don't use SIPS anymore (like I did in the original libraries), but wrote my own scripts to support all the features I wanted, and to do it with minimal CPU overheads. The new library has SO many articulations that you would run out of keys to implement them all on a keyboard, so it uses a two-key system to select articulations within a bank of related articulations. You can still use one key to select the primary articulation, but a second key can give you the variations. The 6 instruments are mapped identically, which lets you easily copy parts.
> 
> I have a video on YouTube that describes the features of the woodwinds for anyone interested. Here is the link.
> 
> ...



Hey Jeff! Nice to see you've updated the instruments, they look great! I wish you would have told your old beloved customers of this new version, any upgrade path?

In case you don't remember me I'm the guy who did the UI for you back in the day:


----------



## WarpIV (Sep 16, 2020)

Bollen said:


> Hey Jeff! Nice to see you've updated the instruments, they look great! I wish you would have told your old beloved customers of this new version, any upgrade path?
> 
> In case you don't remember me I'm the guy who did the UI for you back in the day:


I think I did send out an email to all my customers when the new version was released, but I probably missed some. Go to my website and you will see an upgrade. It kind of depends on what instruments you bought. I was going to upgrade the trumpets and trombones, and probably still will, but right now my focus is the drums. I have been recording for more than a year, so you can imagine how enormous the library is. For example, I have 9 toms (all Pearl Masterworks or Reference Series, which are the top of the line) ranging from 6, 8, 10, 12, two 14s, 16, 18, and a 20 inch gong tom. Each has different tunings, dampening, and with/without bottom heads. All of the cymbals are the top of the line brands and series within the brands, etc. The three very different hi hats I recorded (Zildjian, Meinl, Paiste) have 56 articulations each, and each articulation has something like 96 samples from 4 Earthworks omnidirectional mics (note, the top mic has a near-perfectly flat frequency response of 3-50KH, it's unbelievable). The various snare hits, by the way, have 224 samples each. If anybody requests, I will start a new thread to discuss how it all works with the different mics, etc.


----------



## NYC Composer (Sep 16, 2020)

Jeff,

My good friend Marshall Such, who has since passed, loved your libraries. I think he communicated with you around 5 years ago or so. He demo’d them for me, having written a few stellar tracks with Warp IV, and I was very impressed. I had two concerns at the time...

1. the usability (LOTS of key switches)
2. The price (which didn’t seem that competitive at the time.)

I’m always in the market for great jazz horns and winds, so I’ll be intrigued to see what the next phase of Warp IV brings. Cheers!


----------



## Bollen (Sep 16, 2020)

WarpIV said:


> I think I did send out an email to all my customers when the new version was released, but I probably missed some. Go to my website and you will see an upgrade. It kind of depends on what instruments you bought. I was going to upgrade the trumpets and trombones, and probably still will, but right now my focus is the drums. I have been recording for more than a year, so you can imagine how enormous the library is. For example, I have 9 toms (all Pearl Masterworks or Reference Series, which are the top of the line) ranging from 6, 8, 10, 12, two 14s, 16, 18, and a 20 inch gong tom. Each has different tunings, dampening, and with/without bottom heads. All of the cymbals are the top of the line brands and series within the brands, etc. The three very different hi hats I recorded (Zildjian, Meinl, Paiste) have 56 articulations each, and each articulation has something like 96 samples from 4 Earthworks omnidirectional mics (note, the top mic has a near-perfectly flat frequency response of 3-50KH, it's unbelievable). The various snare hits, by the way, have 224 samples each. If anybody requests, I will start a new thread to discuss how it all works with the different mics, etc.


$200 for the upgrade ouch...! I bought everything you had at the time (i.e. trumpets, trombones, clarinet, flute, all the saxes.) and have loved them ever since! The question however is, is it worth the upgrade? I notice there's quite a bit of improvement in the legato, but is there anything else new? Controllable dynamics for example?


----------



## WarpIV (Sep 16, 2020)

It’s totally worth the upgrade. I had Eric in the studio for close to 20 additional hours for the upgrade. There are lots of new articulations and really cool features... For example, you can create stereo ensembles that play in unison using the voice shifting feature. There is a filter that brightens up tones when you use the volume controller to get better dynamics. The library also supports aftertouch and electronic wind instruments. The simulated legato has much better control and many of the articulations are optimized to work with legato (e.g., breathy, trills, etc.). I also wrote some really cool software to automatically tune the samples. There is a new snap back feature that makes it easier to play the instrument on a keyboard (fewer key switches). Also, release triggers automatically snap back to the previous articulation, which really simplifies the use of release triggers. You have full control of release trigger volumes using the velocity of the release triggers key switch. If you want, you can also use release triggers manually, which gives you even more control on how they are played (i.e., their volumn and duration). You can unload articulations that you don’t need to save space. There are really cool editing features that let you control your parts after you’ve played them without using controllers. How key switches are mapped to keys is shown on the interface. You can audition the articulations, which is nice when editing parts. And, lots more...


----------



## WarpIV (Sep 16, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> Jeff,
> 
> My good friend Marshall Such, who has since passed, loved your libraries. I think he communicated with you around 5 years ago or so. He demo’d them for me, having written a few stellar tracks with Warp IV, and I was very impressed. I had two concerns at the time...
> 
> ...


Well, lots of articulations means lots of key switches... But, I did greatly simplify the interface. The new woodwinds (saxes, flute, clarinet) are WAY more playable than the older version, which was pretty basic using the SIPS scripts. As you might imagine, hiring the top people in the world to record my libraries, Wayne Bergeron (trumpet), Andy Martin (trombone), and Eric Marienthal (woodwinds) wasn’t cheap. When I find the time, I’m going to upgrade all of the brass instruments to work exactly like the woodwinds. The trumpets include fully articulated mutes, flugelhorn horn, and piccolo trumpet. The trombone also has all of the mutes and bass trombone. The brass libraries are huge...


----------



## ag75 (Sep 16, 2020)

Has anyone mentioned Broadway Big Band yet? I own that library and have used the saxes in ensemble writing with much success. Never for solos. I don‘t think they would work for that.


----------



## Woodie1972 (Sep 17, 2020)

ag75 said:


> Has anyone mentioned Broadway Big Band yet? I own that library and have used the saxes in ensemble writing with much success. Never for solos. I don‘t think they would work for that.


I think no one has mentioned it, because it's incredibly expensive. The demos sound very convincing to me, but I will never pay over $2200 for a library.


----------



## DSmolken (Sep 17, 2020)

Plenty of people around here paid that much for a library, but it was probably 15-25 years ago.


----------



## Woodie1972 (Sep 17, 2020)

Personally I like the Swam saxophones a lot, except the alto sax, which doesn't sound as good (mid to high region, low is very nice) as the other IMO. The rest of the saxes in this library are great, especially soprano and baritone.


----------



## Syncopator (Sep 17, 2020)

saboo said:


> This has always puzzled me, with saxes being instruments that nearly everyone loves and have such great versatility. Although admittedly not common in orchestras, I don't see why contemporary composers wouldn't love to have them as part of their woodwinds collections. It isn't 1800s' Paris, after all. I guess by posting this I'm very prone to being contradicted, but as if anybody could ever contradict ME!!!
> 
> 
> (please contradict me)
> ...



It seems like most people replying are inadvertently overlooking your main question: "How come there is a distinct lack of saxophone libraries"?

1. Actually the question has a (slightly) false premise: There isn't technically a "lack" of saxophone libraries. It's just that most of them are terrible, and therefore they don't get talked about much.

2. One reason that most of them are terrible is that the saxophone is a profoundly expressive instrument with a very wide range of timbres, making it especially difficult to sample. We're all familiar with loading up a saxophone patch, playing a few notes, and thinking, "Yuck." Intrepid developers have tried, but the results have almost always been mediocre at best.

3. The ONLY saxophone libraries worth any discussion are the SWAM saxophones. Period. End of discussion.

But you need a way to manipulate multiple CCs. It's OK to add them after the fact. In fact, you'll get better results that way, rather than trying to manipulate them all in real time.

(I'm not affiliated with the company in any way. I purchased the libraries years ago and have never even considered another saxophone library. They are PHENOMENAL.)


----------



## Nate Johnson (Sep 17, 2020)

spoiler alert - I didn't read all 7 pages - but gimme a sax library that sounds like this:


----------



## ahorsewhocandrive (Sep 17, 2020)

Syncopator said:


> It seems like most people replying are inadvertently overlooking your main question: "How come there is a distinct lack of saxophone libraries"?
> 
> 1. Actually the question has a (slightly) false premise: There isn't technically a "lack" of saxophone libraries. It's just that most of them are terrible, and therefore they don't get talked about much.
> 
> ...


working on a duke/basie-like for an animation the past couple days has reinforced this for me, i tested using glory days and it's so flat in comparison. a passage like this would be impossible with samples


----------



## Bollen (Sep 17, 2020)

WarpIV said:


> It’s totally worth the upgrade. I had Eric in the studio for close to 20 additional hours for the upgrade. There are lots of new articulations and really cool features... For example, you can create stereo ensembles that play in unison using the voice shifting feature. There is a filter that brightens up tones when you use the volume controller to get better dynamics. The library also supports aftertouch and electronic wind instruments. The simulated legato has much better control and many of the articulations are optimized to work with legato (e.g., breathy, trills, etc.). I also wrote some really cool software to automatically tune the samples. There is a new snap back feature that makes it easier to play the instrument on a keyboard (fewer key switches). Also, release triggers automatically snap back to the previous articulation, which really simplifies the use of release triggers. You have full control of release trigger volumes using the velocity of the release triggers key switch. If you want, you can also use release triggers manually, which gives you even more control on how they are played (i.e., their volumn and duration). You can unload articulations that you don’t need to save space. There are really cool editing features that let you control your parts after you’ve played them without using controllers. How key switches are mapped to keys is shown on the interface. You can audition the articulations, which is nice when editing parts. And, lots more...


Wonderful! Let me know when you have an upgrade path for the full woodwind and brass collection. At the moment it would cost me $400 to update both and I believe the trombone isn't included. Looking forward to it....


----------



## Bollen (Sep 17, 2020)

Syncopator said:


> The ONLY saxophone libraries worth any discussion are the SWAM saxophones. Period. End of discussion.


I must disagree... Between WarpIV and VSL you can get super realistic effects if you're willing to program like a madman and I say this as a professional saxophonist. You won't be able to do everything, but most things are possible. AM is as expressive as the real thing, but it always betrays that it's a synth so it will depend what you need i.e. realism Vs showcasing how you want something performed.


----------



## Drjay (Oct 16, 2020)

Has someone experience with the VSL saxes? I can find only limited information in the internet about their sax libs. Given the current special offer, one can get one full sax lib for ~45 Eur per instrument, wich seems sensible compared to other libs. I currently own Session Horns Pro and I‘d like to complement these saxes with more (expressive?) articulations. I am attracted more by realism than playability. Stylewise I‘m looking for something between Nyman and Bebop


----------



## Bollen (Oct 16, 2020)

Drjay said:


> Has someone experience with the VSL saxes? I can find only limited information in the internet about their sax libs. Given the current special offer, one can get one full sax lib for ~45 Eur per instrument, wich seems sensible compared to other libs. I currently own Session Horns Pro and I‘d like to complement these saxes with more (expressive?) articulations. I am attracted more by realism than playability. Stylewise I‘m looking for something between Nyman and Bebop


Yup, I do! I don't know what Nyman is, but I love Bebop with a passion. I'm not sure the VSL will cut it for that. Although it's packed with all sorts of articulations and gestures, it's quite tricky to program, the patches are really uneven and it's really meant for classical. However, I did use it for a big band solo once... If I can find it I'll upload it here on its own so can judge for yourself...


----------



## Drjay (Oct 16, 2020)

Bollen said:


> Yup, I do! I don't know what Nyman is, but I love Bebop with a passion. I'm not sure the VSL will cut it for that. Although it's packed with all sorts of articulations and gestures, it's quite tricky to program, the patches are really uneven and it's really meant for classical. However, I did use it for a big band solo once... If I can find it I'll upload it here on its own so can judge for yourself...


Cool. That would be great  Although some probably want to beat me for this statement: Michael Nyman got famous for his music for Peter Greenaway movies. Indeed, I‘m a child of the 80s


----------



## kitekrazy (Oct 16, 2020)

How are VSL saxes? Usually they get more things right.


----------



## Rob (Oct 17, 2020)

Nate Johnson said:


> spoiler alert - I didn't read all 7 pages - but gimme a sax library that sounds like this:



Swam saxophones would be your best bet


----------



## Bollen (Oct 19, 2020)

Drjay said:


> Cool. That would be great  Although some probably want to beat me for this statement: Michael Nyman got famous for his music for Peter Greenaway movies. Indeed, I‘m a child of the 80s


Ah Greenaway of course, know it well! So here's that sample I promised, however it's a duel with another tenor (WARPIV). The aforementioned is to the left channel and VSL's is to the right. Hope you find it useful...


----------



## Rob (Oct 19, 2020)

Rob said:


> Swam saxophones would be your best bet


Nate, here's an example with the swam saxes... what I'm missing most is the purity of the attacks, the "t" sound, which is there, but not precise and clean enough imo


----------



## Drjay (Oct 20, 2020)

Bollen said:


> Ah Greenaway of course, know it well! So here's that sample I promised, however it's a duel with another tenor (WARPIV). The aforementioned is to the left channel and VSL's is to the right. Hope you find it useful...


Thanks for you demo. Hard to decide...


----------



## Bollen (Oct 20, 2020)

Drjay said:


> Thanks for you demo. Hard to decide...


If you can wait, there's a revolutionary saxophone coming out in the next 6 months....


----------



## Rtomproductions (Oct 21, 2020)

saboo said:


> This has always puzzled me, with saxes being instruments that nearly everyone loves and have such great versatility. Although admittedly not common in orchestras, I don't see why contemporary composers wouldn't love to have them as part of their woodwinds collections. It isn't 1800s' Paris, after all. I guess by posting this I'm very prone to being contradicted, but as if anybody could ever contradict ME!!!
> 
> 
> (please contradict me)
> ...



Because sax is a terrible sounding instrument that no one actually wants to hear 

^^professional sax player before I got into composing


----------



## Drjay (Oct 21, 2020)

Bollen said:


> If you can wait, there's a revolutionary saxophone coming out in the next 6 months....


Makes me curious.  But apart from those prospects, I‘m not sure about the VSL Saxes anyway. Judging from the demos on the VSL site, I like the alto and sophrano saxes best. But I probably won‘t get them. As you mentioned, it appears to me they need a lot of programming.


----------



## purple (Oct 21, 2020)

because they sound awful


----------



## Bollen (Oct 21, 2020)

Drjay said:


> As you mentioned, it appears to me they need a lot of programming.


Unbelievably so... 🙄


----------



## Bollen (Oct 21, 2020)

purple said:


> because they sound awful


I will prove you wrong...😜


----------



## purple (Oct 21, 2020)

Bollen said:


> I will prove you wrong...😜


They always say that!


----------



## Vovique (Oct 23, 2020)

richhickey said:


> Thanks Rob!
> 
> Here's a version with VSL's sax. I did not edit the notes, didn't use the velocities, didn't edit the expression CCs! Just picked articulations and toggled velocity XF.
> 
> ...



This is one of the best virtual saxes tones I've heard, I will now buy VSL Tenor sax!


----------



## Drjay (Oct 23, 2020)

Vovique said:


> This is one of the best virtual saxes tones I've heard, I will now buy VSL Tenor sax!


I also like the tone, but to me the notes sound somehow ‚unconnected‘. Don‘t get me wrong, I certainly could not do any better, but that‘s what I meant with programming work. It‘s the similar effect, I heard in the VSL tenor sax demos.


----------

