# Batman Returns....Returns !!!!



## ed buller (Jul 9, 2019)




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## Henu (Jul 11, 2019)

WTFOMGBBQ!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111

Where can I buy this?


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## bryla (Jul 11, 2019)

Was excited to see the mail but simply a look at the sample pages shows the same faulty and ugly engraving.


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## FriFlo (Jul 11, 2019)

bryla said:


> Was excited to see the mail but simply a look at the sample pages shows the same faulty and ugly engraving.


I can relate to "ugly" engraving, but what do you mean by faulty? Do you see any mistakes on those sample pages? Or did you buy the Batman score and there were many mistakes in that?


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## bryla (Jul 11, 2019)

Ugly: Time signatures, bar numbers, vertical system adjustment.

Faulty: Bracket for Timpani. Braces for all instruments where it is not one player reading multiple staves (like harp, piano and synthesizer. Ties on tremolo. Instrument names not aligned with staff. Player numbering exceeding into adjacent staff. Gliss-lines not aligned with noteheads. Stem direction on multiple note harp gliss. Player instruction/technique instruction sequencing. Inconsistent font for techniques. Technique text placement. Expressive text placement.

And those are all just on the sample pages of the new release.

Granted you can still learn all the orchestrational/compositional techniques but in such endeavours it just stumps me that they don't take greater care in this.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jul 11, 2019)

Eflman stumbled his way through orchestration himself - so think of it as method-learning.


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## FriFlo (Jul 11, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Eflman stumbled his way through orchestration himself - so think of it as method-learning.


LOL ... Elfman did not orchestrate this, otherwise it wouldn't be so beautifully orchestrated! That was done by the legendary Shirley Walker.


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## FriFlo (Jul 11, 2019)

bryla said:


> Ties on tremolo.


Recently, on the Dorico Facebook-group I mentioned regarding a members scoring example, that ties where superfluous on tremolo. But (mostly referring to some notation book I never read) some say it is not and they laughed at my ignorance. 

Just a little example, that in notation there are standards, but these may greatly differ depending on who you ask ...
Not to argue about the omni publishing scores, though! I totally agree that they do not look like being edited by someone who is really good at this. Still a good learning resource regarding orchestration.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jul 11, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> LOL ... Elfman did not orchestrate this, otherwise it wouldn't be so beautifully orchestrated! That was done by the legendary Shirley Walker.


I meant in general. Elfman does have his creative input however, but I just thought it kind of funny that his cursory experience with orchestration would be reflected in printed scores of his projects XD


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## bryla (Jul 11, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> Recently, on the Dorico Facebook-group I mentioned regarding a members scoring example, that ties where superfluous on tremolo. But (mostly referring to some notation book I never read) some say it is not and they laughed at my ignorance.
> 
> Just a little example, that in notation there are standards, but these may greatly differ depending on who you ask ...
> Not to argue about the omni publishing scores, though! I totally agree that they do not look like being edited by someone who is really good at this. Still a good learning resource regarding orchestration.



As I was writing my list I thought to myself: Someone's gonna pick out 'ties on tremolos' and disregard the rest of my list  I know it's a more recent trend but I find it totally superfluous.


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## ed buller (Jul 11, 2019)

it's one guy..........on his own with a laptop !...but thank jebus we have em I say

best

ed


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## ed buller (Jul 13, 2019)

Speedy delivery too. This really is a must have if your interested in Film Music , Orchestration or Danny Elfman . It's beautifully made. Has a robust analysis of the music with a break down of each cue . it's really a one man operation out of his house in the Valley...we need people like him in this world !

Best

E


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## jbuhler (Jul 13, 2019)

ed buller said:


> Speedy delivery too. This really is a must have if your interested in Film Music , Orchestration or Danny Elfman . It's beautifully made. Has a robust analysis of the music with a break down of each cue . it's really a one man operation out of his house in the Valley...we need people like him in this world !
> 
> Best
> 
> E


I agree with this completely and they aren’t designed to be performance editions.


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## Mike Fox (Jul 13, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> LOL ... Elfman did not orchestrate this, otherwise it wouldn't be so beautifully orchestrated! That was done by the legendary Shirley Walker.


You sure about that? Looks like it was actually Steve Bartek.

https://elfman.cinemusic.net/filmography/batman_returns.html

Says the same thing in CD jacket sleeve.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jul 13, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> LOL ... Elfman did not orchestrate this, otherwise it wouldn't be so beautifully orchestrated! That was done by the legendary Shirley Walker.


I might know someone who would disagree with you about Elfman's orchestration abilities.  No disagreement that Shirley Walker was legendary though.


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## ed buller (Jul 13, 2019)

Elfman is fantastic. But this was has first big blockbuster score. He had help. In the writing and themes no, but there was lot's of heavy lifting in adapting them and orchestrating them. Shirley Walker ( so underrated TBH ) and Scott Smalley helped . This is what i have heard from multiple sources but I wasn't there and can't know for sure. If I offend anyone with this slander, please except my apologies.

THIS ( Batman Begins) score however was much More Danny...and it show's. it's less corny and more refined and is along with Scissor hands one of his finest.

Danny got a lot of stick when he wrote this from the "serious" world. One particularly nasty letter prompted this response !

Originally published in *Keyboard Magazine, March 1990*

*An Open letter from Danny Elfman*

[Bodies litter the musical battleground, where the forces of innovation engage the armies of tradition time and time again. The latest skirmish pitted Danny Elfman, the self-taught author of the scores to Batman, Midnight Run, Pee Wee's Big Adventure, and Beetlejuice, against Micah D. Rubenstein, a theory and composition teacher at Ohio's Kenyon College. Elfman, in his Oct '89 Keyboard interview confessed to having had only a skimpy musical education; most of his savvy as a performer and composer stems from onstage experience as leader of a 12-piece musical/the atrical troupe, the Mystic Knights of the Oingo Boingo. This admission outraged Rubenstein, whose subsequent letter in our Jan.'90 issue accused us and Elfman of "glorifying musical ignorance. . . . In the complex world of film and orchestral music, there are no shortcuts. If you can't do it yourself, you have to have the money to hire competent, conservatory-trained people such as (orchestrator) Steve Bartek or (conductor) Shirley Walker,", whose contributions to the Batman sessions were discussed at length in our Elfman interview.

[Our special issue on film scoring was well underway when Elfman called us and asked if he could submit a response to Rubenstein's letter Though much of what he wanted to say boiled down to a refutation of Rubenstein's allegations about his background, Elfman also wanted to make broader points about the changing dynamics of the film industry and the new standards of excellence being pursued by today's soundtrack composers. His comments fit in so well with this month's focus that we decided to give him this page as his forum.]

-
_Although I'm quite used to being attacked by "knowledgeable" people in the music pmfession, and I rarely find it worth my time to take these attacks seriously, I'm compelled to respond to Micah Rubenstein's absurd and misinformed letter about my musical abilities (or lack thereof)._

_I have chosen to defend myself this time not only because of the personal viciousness and many inaccuracies of his com ments, but more importantly because of the frightening musical elitism that they represent._

_As well as offering a personal defense, I wish to speak on behalf of the many musicians, composers, and arrangers who lack formal education, yet persist in an extremely difficult craft with nothing more than some raw talent and a belief in their abil ities._

_The art of film composition is something I happen to take very seriously. While I would never refer to myself as a wun derkind or a genius of any kind, Mr. Rubestein, your comparison of a film music composer to Mozart is even more pointless._

_Film composition is a unique art with unique requirements. It is not the same as writing a symphony-something I've never professed to be able to do. Film music is written for no other reason than to accentuate the images on the screen, to underline the emotions of the characters, and hope- fully, when we're lucky, to help breathe life into a two-dimensional medium. A film score is not "pure music," and should be judged on its dramatic, emotional, and/or visually enhancing merits._

_There isn't any one "corrcct" way to score a film. Each film is a world unto itself, with its own unique strengths and weaknesses which must be addressed._

_While one film may, in fact, call for a full- blown "symphonic" approach, synthesizers may be more appropriate for another. The next may require nothing more than a banjo and accordion duet._

_It is an art that requires you to constantly invent creative and imaginative solutions to numerous restrictions and obstacles... and doing it fast._

_On the film Batman, as with many films, there were about six weeks to compose more than 70 minutes of accurately timed and often complex orchestral music. Add on top of this any number of changes and rewrites due to last-minute film cuts anu/or conceptual shifts, and the total amount of music can increase dramatically._

_Because of this, most composers in Hol lywood -yes, even the famous conservatory- trained ones - use orchestrators, music editors, and occasionally conductors to assist them in focusing their creative energy where it will do the most good. The complexity of the task on a huge, high-pressure score can be mind- boggling, I assure you._

_On Batman, as on many films, there was a team effort to pull it all together on time, and I'm fortunate to have very talented people on my team. Yes, my orchestrator, Steve Bartek, is very gifted, and did a great job, as did my conductor, Shirley Walker, and the music editor, Bob Badami. Their help was invaluable to me, especially on a difficult job like Batman._

_Whether I achieved good, bad, or mediocre results with the music is not the issue here. As with any art, that's a subjective point which will always be up for lively debate and scrutiny. But, having worked my ass off for 12 to 14 hours a day, seven days a week, for a month and a half to write that score and yes, you dumb fuck, I actually wrote it down-I will not sit back passively and allow myself to be discredited for the work I did by an idiot who mistakenly thinks that I lazily hire people to do it for me, or that only a conservatory can produce a real film composer._

_I am self-taught, and although that's not something I'm proud of, neither am I ashamed of it. While you, Mr. Rubenstein are incorrect in stating that I studied with Christopher Young or anyone else, you are absolutely presumptuous in assuming that Mr. Bartek and Ms. Walker are conservatory-trained. In fact, Mr. Bartek never attended a conservatory, and Ms. Walker, who in addition to being a great conductor and orchestrator is a fine composer in her own right, never finished college, and considers herself to be primarily self-taught as well._

_Furthermore, and more to the point, composers, like writers, painters, or film directors, are able to create their art from their instincts, their into ition-their "soul," for lack of a better word something that has never been easily taught. Imagination, our most valuable tool, is not, unfortunately, conferred by a degree._

_A musical education, although I never had one, is something for which I have great respect. It can, I'm sure, be a wonderful thing, and provide all kinds of invaluable tools with which to work. It is not, however, the only way to acquire tools, or to learn._

_I would guess that it wouldn't surprise you terribly to find out that a respected author may not have had six years of formal English literature, but learned by doing-that is, by sit ting down at a typewriter and writing, day after day._

_Certainly, you must be aware that there are many film directors -Batman's Tim Burton, for one example -who never attended any film school. Why, then, is it so hard to accept the possibility that someone who works hard can learn to write film music from hands-on experience?_

_In the past five years, I've had the good fortune of being able to write, and have performed, more than 600 minutes of orchestra music. This probably involved writing some where in the neighborhood of 20,000 bars of music. I know I'm not the greatest film composer in the land--something that I couldn't care less about--and I'm more than aware of my many shortcomings. But after all this, I have learned just a few little things --perhaps even a thing or two not taught in your illustrious music class._

_I will admit to getting tongue twisted and saying some pretty incomprehensible things more than once in my Keyboard interview. But I feel that my work, of which I'm proud, speaks for me much better than I can._

_Finally, I hope there are others out there who can benefit from my experience -- other compulsive self-taught artists who feel driven to test their abilities beyond what anal, closed- minded, self-protective "teachers" like yourself try to convince them they cannot do without their degrees._

_ -Danny Elfman _
_ Graduate, with honors American College of Hard Knocks_

_ Post-graduate studies, Nose to the Grindstone University_


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## Mike Fox (Jul 14, 2019)

What i find fascinating is that Burton knew that he wanted Elfman doing his scores after seeing him perform in Oingo Boingo. He took the biggest gamble on Elfman, someone who had never done any film compososing. Call it director's intuition. Call it fate. Call it whatever. We got some of the best film music ever to be written because of it.


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## kriskrause (Jul 14, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> What i find fascinating is that Burton knew that he wanted Elfman doing his scores after seeing him perform in Oingo Boingo. He took the biggest gamble on Elfman, someone who had never done any film compososing. Call it director's intuition. Call it fate. Call it whatever. We got some of the best film music ever to be written because of it.


I call it weird science.


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## Mike Fox (Jul 14, 2019)

kriskrause said:


> I call it weird science.


Love it.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jul 14, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> someone who had never done any film compososing


Except Forbidden Zone! But yeah...it was a crazy leap of faith.


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## Mike Fox (Jul 14, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Except Forbidden Zone! But yeah...it was a crazy leap of faith.


Exactly. I was gonna mention that, but meh. 

Loved Elfman as the devil in that.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 15, 2019)

ed buller said:


> _Furthermore, and more to the point, composers, like writers, painters, or film directors, are able to create their art from their instincts, their into ition-their "soul," for lack of a better word something that has never been easily taught. Imagination, our most valuable tool, is not, unfortunately, conferred by a degree.
> 
> A musical education, although I never had one, is something for which I have great respect. It can, I'm sure, be a wonderful thing, and provide all kinds of invaluable tools with which to work. It is not, however, the only way to acquire tools, or to learn._



This quote from Elfman's letter is so true, and has always been my argument.


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## Mike Fox (Jul 15, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> This quote from Elfman's letter is so true, and has always been my argument.


There's just no disputing it. 

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution." -Einstein

To me, knowledge and imagination go hand in hand when it comes to writing music, and compliment eachother perfectly. If i had choose one of the two for the composing process, i would take imagination every time. That's what started music in the first place.


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## FranchisedYouth (Jul 17, 2019)

The person releasing this has done music prep on quite a few Hollywood scores so he does indeed take great care (he's a good friend of mine.) Not that there won't be mistakes here and there, but unless you plan on the painstaking process of doing it yourself (which will include the way you personally like things laid out which will undoubtedly have detractors), I'd chill out on the criticism saying he doesn't care or take time. Couldn't be further from the truth


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## eph221 (Jul 19, 2019)

There's always a tension between academic art and those who are naturally gifted. Look at 19th century French painting! Nothing new under the sun. There's no such thing as bad press anymore. 😀


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## FGBR (Jul 19, 2019)

Personally I think it's brilliant that these scores are being made available. Got the Matrix score a while back, which I had been looking for for a while. One of my all time favourites. 

Interesting experience watching the movie while following the score. I enjoyed reading the included analysis as well, which at least in part seemed to match my own thoughts on the score. (No wonder i enjoyed it ).


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## ProfoundSilence (Jul 20, 2019)

here's the moral of the story

learn from the music you like, who wrote it is just a question of ego. If you follow shirley Walker's works and they have a similar appeal, follow your nose. 

that said, I can't help but feel like Elfman has a very specific set of directions for his orchestrations here. Maybe his orchestrators fixed them, but he has a very specific sound that even without the melody sounds like elfman.


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## Mike Fox (Aug 28, 2019)

As a side note, does anyone here actually know where the original Nightmare Before Christmas soundtrack was recorded?


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## South Thames (Oct 9, 2019)

Just discovered this had been released and will certainly be ordering it. I actually prefer the original Batman score but this one was by far the more inventive, and more uniquely Elfman-esque, and the string writing in particular is magnificent.

The original Batman scores are available on line - Steve Bartek did the vast majority of the orchestration, as he has done on every Elfman project that I know of. Walker and Smalley have a few cues each. My feeling is their contributions have been overstated over the years. Elfman's association with them was brief, and he continued to produce superior work throughout the 90s.

I am a great admirer of Omni editions and the idea of getting more film music available in manuscript form, but it's a pity they don't credit the orchestrators on the cues. There's no secret to the fact they've been used so this seems a curious decision. Additionally, they make editorial transcriptions without announcing them as such -- the original Batman scores show that parts indicated only with a 'tape' stave are transcribed as percussion parts in the Omni editions. The Total Recall synth parts are also transcriptions I believe.

Anyway, it's easy to nit pick. Hard to believe that one guy alone has taken the initiative to actually formally publish full scores of film music -- nobody else has done this, after all this time. So hats off to him.


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## FranchisedYouth (Oct 9, 2019)

Hello All,

For those that are a fan of OMNI's scores I bring some sad news. Tim Rodier (a dear friend of mine) is struggling with serious health issues. Tim started Omni as a passion project and it has grown to be beloved by a lot of us composers. 

Tim's family has a Fundraiser page up. Let's all wish Tim a Speedy Recovery as I know he has big plans for future Omni Publishing releases. 









Tim Rodier's journey to recovery, organized by Kimberly Rodier Mignault


Three years ago, our world was shaken when we received news that our beloved… Kimberly Rodier Mignault needs your support for Tim Rodier's journey to recovery



www.gofundme.com


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## ed buller (Oct 9, 2019)

That's awful. He's a lovely guy. Thanks for the link. Best wishes to him and his family

ed


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## patrick76 (Oct 9, 2019)

FranchisedYouth said:


> Hello All,
> 
> For those that are a fan of OMNI's scores I bring some sad news. Tim Rodier (a dear friend of mine) is struggling with serious health issues. Tim started Omni as a passion project and it has grown to be beloved by a lot of us composers.
> 
> ...


Thanks for making us aware of this. What a terrible thing. Hopefully everything goes well and he heals quickly.


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