# Trying again with this piece



## Dear Villain (Oct 12, 2019)

Hi all,

So, I posted this piece for bass clarinet, piano, and string quartet last year to crickets. Thought I'd try again to see if there's any interest in it. I have some people in mind for a live performance (which is what the goal is for all of my music, as I write primarily orchestral/chamber music) but I was pretty pleased with how the midi version turned out, so if this is all I get, I'll be pleased.

Pianoteq piano, VSL bass clarinet, string quartet (yes, I'm a VSL guy, so feel free to click the "next" button if you're among the seemingly large group on the VI forum that doesn't appreciate their offerings...or attack me if that's your pleasure!)



Cheers,
Dave


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## jbuhler (Oct 12, 2019)

Not a VSL guy, and I thought your midi rendition was very credible. Interesting piece too, and I especially liked how you handled the ending.


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## BlackDorito (Oct 12, 2019)

Dave,

I can easily imagine a chamber performance of this with strings, a clarinetist and a piano. My immediate thought is to feature the clarinet more ("Exorcism for Bass Clarinet and Strings"). Just a thought. There are tonal figures throughout but it comes across as non-tonal (perhaps OK for an exorcism, but different from "The Exorcist") because there is no traditional melodic-harmonic movement - but of course that is your intention. On first listening, a few impressions on the rendering, not the piece itself: first, when the strings come in at [0:14] (viola?), my ears were expecting a dramatic marcato bite on every note. Secondly, the piano sounds more distant than the other instruments .. perhaps a bit more than it should. Sinister piece!

Cheers,
Chris


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## Michel Simons (Oct 12, 2019)

I agree on the piano sounding a bit too distant. Apart from that a good piece.


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## Dear Villain (Oct 13, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Not a VSL guy, and I thought your midi rendition was very credible. Interesting piece too, and I especially liked how you handled the ending.



Thanks, jbuhler! The bass clarinet serves as the subject of the exorcism, and the final chords signify a successful ritual...until the very last chord where the crescendo of the bass clarinet hints that perhaps more is to come 

Cheers!
Dave


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## Dear Villain (Oct 13, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> Dave,
> 
> I can easily imagine a chamber performance of this with strings, a clarinetist and a piano. My immediate thought is to feature the clarinet more ("Exorcism for Bass Clarinet and Strings"). Just a thought. There are tonal figures throughout but it comes across as non-tonal (perhaps OK for an exorcism, but different from "The Exorcist") because there is no traditional melodic-harmonic movement - but of course that is your intention. On first listening, a few impressions on the rendering, not the piece itself: first, when the strings come in at [0:14] (viola?), my ears were expecting a dramatic marcato bite on every note. Secondly, the piano sounds more distant than the other instruments .. perhaps a bit more than it should. Sinister piece!
> 
> ...



Hi Chris,

Thanks for sharing your detailed thoughts. As I mentioned above, you're definitely spot on thinking of the bass clarinet as the main subject, with the string quartet and piano serving as supporting characters. And yes, it leans heavily on dissonance to create the tension, with the numerous tonal figures providing moments of respite/hope that the demons are being exorcised (or maybe if they're out of shape demons, exercised...yeah, cheesy joke!)

I could see the viola coming in with a marcato attack, but I preferred the mysterious, sotto voce like approach to slowly build in intensity. It's funny you should mention the piano's distance...during the production, I vacillated between a more present sound and putting it in the background. Dense piano chords can build with overtones that quickly render the whole thing murky/muddy, and since I wanted the bass clarinet to be the focal point, I thought it best to push it back. Perhaps a little too aggressive there!

Cheers,
Dave


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## Dear Villain (Oct 13, 2019)

Michel Simons said:


> I agree on the piano sounding a bit too distant. Apart from that a good piece.



Thanks Michel. What I like one day might change the next. At the time, it felt right to have the piano in the background, but tomorrow, I might have that Steinway sit on the bass clarinet 

Cheers!
Dave


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## jbuhler (Oct 13, 2019)

Dear Villain said:


> Thanks, jbuhler! The bass clarinet serves as the subject of the exorcism, and the final chords signify a successful ritual...until the very last chord where the crescendo of the bass clarinet hints that perhaps more is to come
> 
> Cheers!
> Dave


Yes, I almost wrote that it didn’t seem liken the demon bass clarinet was quite exorcised from the piano quintet!


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## WilliamKersten (Oct 13, 2019)

This sounds great, a really imaginative composition, and the bass clarinet MIDI is amazingly well done. The bass clarinet has a long history as a "sinister" instrument in films and old-time radio. Probably because of its combination of a dark tone with biting attacks and sforzando. Also like other clarinets its huge dynamic range.


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## Dear Villain (Oct 14, 2019)

WilliamKersten said:


> This sounds great, a really imaginative composition, and the bass clarinet MIDI is amazingly well done. The bass clarinet has a long history as a "sinister" instrument in films and old-time radio. Probably because of its combination of a dark tone with biting attacks and sforzando. Also like other clarinets its huge dynamic range.



Thank you, William! Yes, the bass clarinet is sinister...especially when my wife, Becky's gets a preferential spot in our instrument "closet", leaving one of my poor accordions to lie in the shadows 

Cheers!
Dave
p.s. I feel heart-warming satisfaction that this time around, the piece received a few listens/comments.


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## Thomas Kallweit (Oct 15, 2019)

Cudos, I enjoyed this piece in its rich and colorful development.
A real fast journey / narration with lots of details and surprises.
Especially like the end, when it's getting more airy-fairy.


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## Dear Villain (Oct 16, 2019)

Thomas Kallweit said:


> Cudos, I enjoyed this piece in its rich and colorful development.
> A real fast journey / narration with lots of details and surprises.
> Especially like the end, when it's getting more airy-fairy.



Thanks, Thomas! Always appreciate you listening and sharing your thoughts. I got a good kick out of your last line: "when it's getting more airy-fairy." I'll have to use that to describe the piece, and a good amount of my other music that's often airy-fairy 

Cheers!
Dave


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## markleake (Nov 1, 2019)

Very enjoyable to listen to. The VSL winds do such a great job here. Like others say, the piano is too distant for my taste. But overall I found the track a bit too distant for me. I think it would have worked better with a closer atmosphere.

The usual VSL suspects, the strings in this case, are the weakest link. The parts at 2:25 and 3:05 for example are really showing the limits of the strings. It would be interesting to hear this with a string library that is capable of some more bite/presence. But enough complaining about VSL, I'm sure you've heard it all before.

It's a wonderful track. It's all there in terms of interest and orchestration, although I tend to prefer something with more melodic content that I can latch onto, even for this genre. Like others say, more of the bass clarinet would have been good to hear.


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## giwro (Nov 1, 2019)

Enjoyed the render and the writing very much. Nice to see another composer here writing more “concert/classical” music - seems a lot of this community writes more commercial/trailer/cinematic stuff (nothing wrong with that - I’ve done a bit of background music like that myself). Keep up the good work!


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## Dear Villain (Nov 2, 2019)

markleake said:


> Very enjoyable to listen to. The VSL winds do such a great job here. Like others say, the piano is too distant for my taste. But overall I found the track a bit too distant for me. I think it would have worked better with a closer atmosphere.
> 
> The usual VSL suspects, the strings in this case, are the weakest link. The parts at 2:25 and 3:05 for example are really showing the limits of the strings. It would be interesting to hear this with a string library that is capable of some more bite/presence. But enough complaining about VSL, I'm sure you've heard it all before.
> 
> It's a wonderful track. It's all there in terms of interest and orchestration, although I tend to prefer something with more melodic content that I can latch onto, even for this genre. Like others say, more of the bass clarinet would have been good to hear.



Hi Mark,

Thanks so much for your detailed comments. That "string bite" you like is completely understandable and for sure, samples aren't quite there yet. I work regularly with real performers and there is a certain raw, rough around the edges sound of actual strings that often feels lost with virtual strings. That said, the impeccable tuning can be a plus too, as I'm often distracted by live players trying to find their pitch all the time 

As for hearing more of the bass, I felt it to be the "main event" so to speak, and as such didn't want to overexpose it. It's always more impactful to be left wanting more than to overexpose something, to say nothing of the practical considerations of breath support/sustainability for a bass clarinet player.

Cheers!
Dave


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## Dear Villain (Nov 2, 2019)

giwro said:


> Enjoyed the render and the writing very much. Nice to see another composer here writing more “concert/classical” music - seems a lot of this community writes more commercial/trailer/cinematic stuff (nothing wrong with that - I’ve done a bit of background music like that myself). Keep up the good work!



Thanks, Jonathan. Yes, I often feel like a fish out of water on the forum, because there aren't quite as many interested in this genre...and sadly, those that are, often like to put down others and be hyper-critical, leading to even fewer composers willing to post their work.​


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## markleake (Nov 2, 2019)

Dear Villain said:


> samples aren't quite there ye


This is for sure, there's nothing like hearing the bite of real strings, even if the pitch is imperfect.


Dear Villain said:


> always more impactful to be left wanting more


Completely understand this approach, yes. Hence us wanting more I guess.


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## giwro (Nov 2, 2019)

Dear Villain said:


> Thanks, Jonathan. Yes, I often feel like a fish out of water on the forum, because there aren't quite as many interested in this genre...and sadly, those that are, often like to put down others and be hyper-critical, leading to even fewer composers willing to post their work.



Yeah, it’s odd how musicians can be. I try to stick to kind suggestions (if I say anything) since at one point in my life I had a composition teacher who was nasty, critical, and condescending. I stopped composing for quite awhile...

Later, I was encouraged by a kinder person - and returned to composing. I resolved to be careful about what and how I spoke about other people’s work, since the comments made to me had such a negative effect (and I’m not a really thin-skinned person)

Keep up the good work - I’m heading over to listen to the clarinet cto. next!


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## BlackDorito (Nov 2, 2019)

giwro said:


> I try to stick to kind suggestions


I agree with you in spirit .. and I believe most people on the forum are socially savvy enough to act in that fashion (not all!). I'm coming to believe however that certain kinds of music - 'production music' in particular - have to produce their impact immediately on first listening, and thus the norm on this forum of giving a quick listen, and then saying "Hey, where's the theme?" is valid for that type of music. [I'm being a bit dramatic here, most reviewers are more sensitive] OTOH, various other types of music - chamber, longer form (e.g. symphonic), more modern, etc. - are better appreciated with multiple listenings. Don't want to hijack Dave's thread, but I think his music (that I've heard) falls into this category. As a general statement, 'art music' may not wear its emotions on its sleeve, the thematic material isn't always so blatantly melodic, and it can be much more complex. Repeat listenings can discern these things if the listener is disposed to appreciate them. Kudos to those reviewers who listen a few times before commenting. [I should probably do it more myself]


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## Dear Villain (Nov 3, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> I agree with you in spirit .. and I believe most people on the forum are socially savvy enough to act in that fashion (not all!). I'm coming to believe however that certain kinds of music - 'production music' in particular - have to produce their impact immediately on first listening, and thus the norm on this forum of giving a quick listen, and then saying "Hey, where's the theme?" is valid for that type of music. [I'm being a bit dramatic here, most reviewers are more sensitive] OTOH, various other types of music - chamber, longer form (e.g. symphonic), more modern, etc. - are better appreciated with multiple listenings. Don't want to hijack Dave's thread, but I think his music (that I've heard) falls into this category. As a general statement, 'art music' may not wear its emotions on its sleeve, the thematic material isn't always so blatantly melodic, and it can be much more complex. Repeat listenings can discern these things if the listener is disposed to appreciate them. Kudos to those reviewers who listen a few times before commenting. [I should probably do it more myself]



You raise some very good points, BlackDorito (Chris?) I'm convinced that a few "classical composers" on this forum are mean-spirited with intent, and are perfectly savvy enough to know that their words are being used to undermine others. As for the reason? Classical musicians are often highly educated, but equally insecure. In fact, it's far easier for them to show their knowledge of music through criticism at the expense of others than it is for them to simply put their energy in to their own creative work. 

As for "art music", it definitely benefits from repeated listenings in order to more deeply uncover the value in it. Most people don't have the time nor the desire to sit with a piece for a while, and then to take the time to articulate their thoughts in a post. Those that do, as one listener of my music once wrote me, do so as much to shine the spotlight on their clever comments, as they do to offer feedback/appreciation to the composer. In other words, we all want something out of the effort. Very few are so altruistic that they offer comments simply for the benefit of the composer.

Cheers!
Dave


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## BlackDorito (Nov 3, 2019)

Dear Villain said:


> Very few are so altruistic


We can aspire to be Mother Teresa but our human nature gets in the way. I think it is easier to be generous if you are secure, as you mention. All the same, since one of the benefits of this forum is a sense of camaraderie, I am always surprised when I see unprovoked angry words. As we say in industry - it takes years to gain a customer and seconds to lose one. - Chris


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## re-peat (Nov 3, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> We can aspire to be Mother Teresa but our human nature gets in the way.


You might want to think twice before holding up Mother Theresa as a shining beacon of human kindness, Chris. The woman caused a lot more suffering than relief and put medieval systems in place that sustained human misery rather than alleviate it. Not someone that anyone with even a smidgeon of compassion for his/her fellow human beings, would seek to aspire to, I would think.

Anyway. Off-topic, of course.

_


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## BlackDorito (Nov 4, 2019)

re-peat said:


> shining beacon of human kindness


I don't have any deeper impression of her than the average person, but a casual Google/wiki search indicates she got the Nobel Peace prize and was revered by popes. Point is that being selfless and helping people with no prospect of getting anything in return in this world is hard.


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## re-peat (Nov 4, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> (...) she got the Nobel Peace prize and was revered by popes (...)



Yes, she did, and yes, she was.

But that's not the entire story. That's the Catholic Church PR-machine's version of her story. Mother Theresa, you see, condemned the people she claimed she cared for (and was heavily funded to care for) to a life of inhumane suffering, denying them even the most basic medical attention. "Sick people should suffer like Christ on the cross", is one of hers. "Suffering is a gift from God" is another. I'm not making this up. Only when she herself needed medical treatment, did those commandments apparently not apply, and she got for herself the best treatment her gigantic fortune could buy.

Mother Theresa wasn't interested in helping the poor — she actually said so herself in an interview — she was only interested in increasing the number of Catholics on planet Earth. Religious colonization, in other words. And the price which thousands of poor, sick, vulnerable and innocent people had to pay so that she could reach her goals, was of an indescribable cruelty and humiliation. The conditions in her 'hospitals' have been described by several witnesses and survivors as horrific, and by one witness even compared to the medical camps of Nazi Germany. Many people called her an angel, and many still do, very true, but no less call her a monster. And one documentary about her is titled "Hell's Angel".

She'd rather condone rape than abortion. She had less sympathy for the victims of rape squads than for the soldiers who were part of these squads. She was against birth control. And against the self-development and empowerment of women. She stood, in fact, for a medieval type of Catholicism that thrives on the misery, deprivation, ignorance and weakness of helpless human beings.

Talking about that fortune of hers: she happily accepted money — millions and millions of dollars — from tyrants like Jean-Claude Duvalier (accused of crimes agains humanity for the horrors he inflicted on the Haitian people) and Charles Keating (more than anyone else the symbol of the dark financial machinations that led to the $150 billion savings-and-loan crisis which destroyed the lives of many thousands of people). That's the sort of people she liked to keep company with.
On top of that, she received a huge number of donations from all over the world, amounting to an immeasurably humongous pile of money only a tiny percentage of which was used for her work (when the press was visiting and the camera's were rolling) and all the rest of which is to this day largely unaccounted for.

"Mother Theresa", yes, it's a beautiful, saintly icon and a myth which has indeed inspired other people to do good — which is wonderful, of course — but ... it is a sinister fairy-tale. The human reality behind it is of a diabolical darkness too disturbing for words.

- - -

Dave, my sincere apologies for wandering off-topic so much in your thread.

__


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## BlackDorito (Nov 4, 2019)

re-peat said:


> But that's not the entire story


Oof .. the things one can learn on this forum. I have no skin in the game with Mother Teresa. A bit shocked however ... we better get back to Dave's music.


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## Dear Villain (Nov 4, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> Oof .. the things one can learn on this forum. I have no skin in the game with Mother Teresa. A bit shocked however ... we better get back to Dave's music.



Feel free to carry on! Those that would have commented on the piece have already done so, and I'm grateful for that 

The irony is not lost on me that a discussion of Mother Theresa would take place on a piece called "The Exorcism." 

Dave


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