# Monitor Controller Question



## dijon (Oct 19, 2021)

I'm planning on upgrading my monitors to a single pair of Focal Solo6 be, which don't have volume controls. I'm wondering if it would be better to add a separate monitor controller or if it's ok to use the volume control on my audio interface (RME Babyface Pro).

With a monitor controller, I'm assuming I set the output on my interface to 0db and attenuate via the controller? 

If the answer is to get a controller, perhaps some suggestions?


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## fakemaxwell (Oct 19, 2021)

Why would you need a separate controller? Wouldn't it just be coming out of the Babyface anyway?


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## Zanshin (Oct 19, 2021)

I have Focal Shape 50s and a baby face pro. I bought a Mackie Big Knob but it's still in the box. I think you'll be fine with just the control on the baby face pro.


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## dijon (Oct 19, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> Why would you need a separate controller? Wouldn't it just be coming out of the Babyface anyway?


Exactly my question. Is digitally controlled volume via the interface ok - or, as some say, do i need to maximize the digital output bits and use a controller?


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## AudioLoco (Oct 19, 2021)

I always prefer to have a monitor controller especially for the extra tactile controls you have:
Mono button, dim, choosing between different monitor systems, sub control etc.
Also, for critical listening needs like commercial mastering and mixing, an external analog attenuation stage is surely welcome because, by lowering the volume digitally you are also lowering the resolution.
For composing, or generally non commercial use, the output from the audio interface should be just fine.

I had a Mackie Big Knob for years and liked it. I currently have and love my Avocet II which happens to have a superb DA converter too.


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## rrichard63 (Oct 19, 2021)

dijon said:


> Is digitally controlled volume via the interface ok - or, as some say, do i need to maximize the digital output bits and use a controller?


Are you sure the Babyface's output volume is digitally controlled, meaning it's before the A/D conversion? I've always thought that on most interfaces the volume knob is after the A/D conversion. The Babyface manual doesn't answer this question.


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## fakemaxwell (Oct 19, 2021)

dijon said:


> Exactly my question. Is digitally controlled volume via the interface ok - or, as some say, do i need to maximize the digital output bits and use a controller?


The only reason to use a monitor controller is for when you need additional flexibility, like sending to 4 sets of monitors and you want to flip between them quickly. For a single set the Babyface is perfect.

"Maximizing the digital output bits" sounds like gobbledygook written by somebody who doesn't understand what they're talking about (I am assuming that person is not you haha).


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## davidson (Oct 19, 2021)

dijon said:


> I'm planning on upgrading my monitors to a single pair of Focal Solo6 be, which don't have volume controls. I'm wondering if it would be better to add a separate monitor controller or if it's ok to use the volume control on my audio interface (RME Babyface Pro).
> 
> With a monitor controller, I'm assuming I set the output on my interface to 0db and attenuate via the controller?
> 
> If the answer is to get a controller, perhaps some suggestions?


If you've never experienced a full on digital noise blast from your interface, consider yourself lucky. If or when it happens, you'll wish you were using an analogue monitor controller. I went for maybe 20 years running sound straight from an interface and then a few years ago I nearly damaged my monitors and hearing. Thank god I didn't have headphones on.

A behringer monitor to usb (spl rip) is less than £100 and works perfectly. No need to go crazy, unless you need some kind of surround control type setup. The peace of mind it gives you is pretty much priceless.


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## AudioLoco (Oct 20, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> The only reason to use a monitor controller is for when you need additional flexibility, like sending to 4 sets of monitors and you want to flip between them quickly. For a single set the Babyface is perfect.
> 
> "Maximizing the digital output bits" sounds like gobbledygook written by somebody who doesn't understand what they're talking about (I am assuming that person is not you haha).


It's actually science, I'm sure you can find some useful info on the matter.

When it comes to top precision and accuracy of reproduction you need to attenuate in analog, not even one serious mastering engineer on the planet attenuates the signal to the monitors digitally.
It is always done in analog, through a controller/consolle.

(Although there are many software solutions that permits you to route audio to more sets of monitors like for example Cubase's Control Room, for critical listening you still want analog attenuation, a monitor controller is not just about routing)

For most applications, quality-wise, onboard digital volume control is just fine, although I find it much less handy and immediate.


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## fakemaxwell (Oct 20, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> It's actually science, I'm sure you can find some useful info on the matter.


If you can direct me to the science that proves that RME, a well known industry standard in interface and conversion, doesn't know how to properly do D to A, I'm all ears.


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## AudioLoco (Oct 21, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> If you can direct me to the science that proves that RME, a well known industry standard in interface and conversion, doesn't know how to properly do D to A, I'm all ears.


We are not talking about actual conversion quality. We are talking about monitoring.

Like rrichard63 said, if there is a digitally controlled, or straight analog volume control/attenuation post conversion, then it is a non issue.
If the attenuation is done digitally it is a different story and some elements worth considering come into play which are worth exploring if you are interested.

PS: RME is great! I have one, I have been using RME interfaces for years now - but it is hardly the "industry standard" conversion-wise. It is in the middle of the park I would say. (As for fast and usually problem-less software drivers, then yes, they are at the top of the pile.)


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## rrichard63 (Oct 21, 2021)

Back to @dijon 's original question for a moment. In order for him to decide whether he needs a monitor controller, we need to know whether the volume knob on the Babyface is pre-conversion or post-conversion. RME's documentation doesn't say.


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## Tim_Wells (Oct 21, 2021)

I don't know the answer to the convertor question. But I've got the original Babyface and a Behringer Monitor2USB ($149) and I love the thing. It so freaking convenient to change levels, inputs, outputs, and headphones right at your fingertips. I thought about using the big wheel on the Babyface and I'm so glad I went the monitor controller route.


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## Zanshin (Oct 21, 2021)

I use the big wheel on the Babyface. I would take the big knob out of the box and use if there was a technical reason to do so though (and the jury is still out on that) ... If there is no technical reason, I personally need less on my desk not more lol.


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## dijon (Oct 21, 2021)

Well, I wrote to RME and they got back to me within the hour:



> The volume control is digital, but the "limited resolution" is a theoretical issue that doesn't cause any audible issue.



I believe I'll hold off on the monitor controller until I get another set of monitors.


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## AudioLoco (Oct 26, 2021)

dijon said:


> Well, I wrote to RME and they got back to me within the hour:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I'll hold off on the monitor controller until I get another set of monitors.


Hey I think you'll be just fine with your choice...
Unless you are doing mastering or hi end mixing the advantages are not that noticible, excluding the tactile factor, multiple outputs and immediacy (and reacting fast to computer noises of death bursts) 

*Having said that - just to point out and be a very pedantic PITA:*
- "limited resolution" is a theoretical issue that doesn't cause any audible issue." is in the eye of the beholder.
RME have no interest in saying the opposite.
"Audible" can't be proven or mis-proven and the science ("theorethical" as they call it) is not being denied.

I would like to see the same question answered by a company that deals mainly in monitor controllers, would be interesting.


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## rrichard63 (Oct 26, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> - "limited resolution" is a theoretical issue that doesn't cause any audible issue." is in the eye of the beholder.


I suspect that somebody, somewhere, has done double-blind comparisons. When I have some time on my hands, I'll do a search. My guess is that a lot depends on noise floors -- both of the digital audio being processed and of the circuitry on the analog side of the interface. It might also depend on dithering, but that's above my pay grade.


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## macmac (Oct 26, 2021)

I don't have the Babyface but do have the RME FF800 with no physical knob, where volume would have to be controlled by the TotalMix software fader. Therefore I use a physical monitor controller, the Heritage Audio Baby R.A.M, and love it. It was an upgrade from the Nano Patch and I do hear a difference. FWIW.


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## wst3 (Oct 26, 2021)

an analog attenuator remains the simplest solution, and arguably it does the least amount of damage to the signal. That does not mean that one should stay away from digital attenuation, it just means you need to understand the difference.

This goes hand in hand with arguments about the nominal digital level that one should work with. We can choose -12 dBFS or -18 dBFS or maybe even -24 dBFS? The further down you go the more headroom you get, but your nominal signal is now that much closer to the noise floor.

The real question, then, is how quiet is quiet? I've measured analog circuits that approach 100 dB of real world signal to noise, and that is no mean feat. It is also entirely unnecessary, since very few of us are in a position to listen to music with a 100 dB dynamic range, and for that matter few of us have monitoring environments with an NC rating below 20.

Which means that the nice folks at RME are correct, or they would have been if they had worded it slightly differently - it is LARGELY an academic question. There are differences, and I won't suggest that no one can hear them.

This isn't a $300 power cable after all<G>.


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## wsimpson (Nov 1, 2022)

davidson said:


> If you've never experienced a full on digital noise blast from your interface, consider yourself lucky. If or when it happens, you'll wish you were using an analogue monitor controller. I went for maybe 20 years running sound straight from an interface and then a few years ago I nearly damaged my monitors and hearing. Thank god I didn't have headphones on.
> 
> A behringer monitor to usb (spl rip) is less than £100 and works perfectly. No need to go crazy, unless you need some kind of surround control type setup. The peace of mind it gives you is pretty much priceless.


What would you recommend if I need a surround sound control set up?


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## davidson (Nov 2, 2022)

I'm sorry, i couldn't tell you. I bet @charlieclouser could point you in the right direction though.


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## AudioLoco (Nov 2, 2022)

wsimpson said:


> What would you recommend if I need a surround sound control set up?


If you mean monitor controller...up to 7.1:

Drawmer Mc7.1
Drawmer Cmc7
SPL SMC 2489
SPL SMC 7.1

Most of the other options available are terribly expensive


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## charlieclouser (Nov 2, 2022)

davidson said:


> I'm sorry, i couldn't tell you. I bet @charlieclouser could point you in the right direction though.


If you're connecting your speakers to your interface with analog cables (as opposed to AES digital) then using an available output level control on your interface won't do anything bad to the sound quality. And I think the BabyFace lets you use the big data wheel / knob as an output level control, right? If so, that's simple and will work just fine.

If you want more fancy features, like switching between multiple sets of speakers, extra inputs for listening to other sources, etc., then you can use lots of simple, analog monitor controllers between $100 and $500. The Audient Nero is a slick little stereo-only monitor controller with a ton of features for around $500.

When you want to move to 5.1 / 7.1, things get a little more complex (and expensive!). The SPL and Drawmer units are quite good analog surround monitor controllers, and take a look at the selection at Vintage King to get an idea of what's out there:






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When you're using speakers with digital inputs, things get even more tricky and expensive, because you don't want to attenuate the digital output right at your audio interface so you can keep the highest bit depth, but many digital-input speaker systems like Genelec don't need a separate monitor controller - they have optional volume knob / box that controls the whole system. If you do want a dedicated monitor controller that can take a digital input, attenuate it, and feed a digital speaker system, then you have fewer choices:

• Grace m908 or CraneSong Avocet ($$$$)
• Studio Technologies 780-03 ($$)

Another interesting option is the Trinnov D-Mon ($$$$$) which is actually a dedicated rack mount PC that does VERY sophisticated room analysis and correction EQ, and even though they don't really use this as a big selling point, is also a very full-featured monitor controller with talkback, listen back, and an optional remote control that's really really nice. But you mainly buy a Trinnov to tune your speakers to the room, and the monitor control stuff is just a nice bonus that simplifies integrating the Trinnov with your rig.


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## davidson (Nov 2, 2022)

Nerd.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 2, 2022)

davidson said:


> Nerd.


Totally.


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## wsimpson (Nov 2, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> If you're connecting your speakers to your interface with analog cables (as opposed to AES digital) then using an available output level control on your interface won't do anything bad to the sound quality. And I think the BabyFace lets you use the big data wheel / knob as an output level control, right? If so, that's simple and will work just fine.
> 
> If you want more fancy features, like switching between multiple sets of speakers, extra inputs for listening to other sources, etc., then you can use lots of simple, analog monitor controllers between $100 and $500. The Audient Nero is a slick little stereo-only monitor controller with a ton of features for around $500.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great information, I very much appreciate it! I have a PreSonus Studio 1810c currently going to 5.1 monitors, actually 5.0 with no LFE just yet. The main control knob on that unit only controls the front LR, which leaves everything else with no physical level control. Yes, I am using analog, so the simple path works for me. I guess I could get a little 4x4 controller like the Heritage Audio Baby RAM 2-channel monitoring system and feed the center and rear surround to that so I can at least control the level going into the monitors with a physical device. It would be a little inconvenient but then I would use the PreSonus main for the front LR monitors and the Heritage Audio for the surround and center. While an awkward and cheap workaround, that would actually work or am I missing something? I am just getting into all of this as a composer and sound editor for very small independent short films so I am trying to keep costs way down until I figure this out and actually do some projects to knowl/learn what I might need to improve over time.


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## wsimpson (Nov 2, 2022)

wsimpson said:


> Thanks for the great information, I very much appreciate it! I have a PreSonus Studio 1810c currently going to 5.1 monitors, actually 5.0 with no LFE just yet. The main control knob on that unit only controls the front LR, which leaves everything else with no physical level control. Yes, I am using analog, so the simple path works for me. I guess I could get a little 4x4 controller like the Heritage Audio Baby RAM 2-channel monitoring system and feed the center and rear surround to that so I can at least control the level going into the monitors with a physical device. It would be a little inconvenient but then I would use the PreSonus main for the front LR monitors and the Heritage Audio for the surround and center. While an awkward and cheap workaround, that would actually work or am I missing something? I am just getting into all of this as a composer and sound editor for very small independent short films so I am trying to keep costs way down until I figure this out and actually do some projects to knowl/learn what I might need to improve over time.


Or just do the Drawmer CMC7 COmpact Monitor Controller and take care of it all in one unit.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 2, 2022)

wsimpson said:


> Thanks for the great information, I very much appreciate it! I have a PreSonus Studio 1810c currently going to 5.1 monitors, actually 5.0 with no LFE just yet. The main control knob on that unit only controls the front LR, which leaves everything else with no physical level control. Yes, I am using analog, so the simple path works for me. I guess I could get a little 4x4 controller like the Heritage Audio Baby RAM 2-channel monitoring system and feed the center and rear surround to that so I can at least control the level going into the monitors with a physical device. It would be a little inconvenient but then I would use the PreSonus main for the front LR monitors and the Heritage Audio for the surround and center. While an awkward and cheap workaround, that would actually work or am I missing something? I am just getting into all of this as a composer and sound editor for very small independent short films so I am trying to keep costs way down until I figure this out and actually do some projects to knowl/learn what I might need to improve over time.


That might be a little cumbersome as you'll have no way to precisely keep the levels between the LR and LsRs matched as you adjust volume. But technically it would work. I agree with @wsimpson that the Drawmer CMC-7 is a great and simple way to deal with one-knob control of an analog surround speaker array, and probably about the cheapest way to do it "right".


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## Intron (Nov 5, 2022)

I would take a look at Coleman Audio for solutions. They make a great range of monitor controllers, audio switchers and routers for stereo, right up to 7.1

They are all passive (apart from power for the Mid/Side monitoring demux/mux feature on some of the monitor controllers).

Monitor control is via a 48 stepped switch, so no odd rolloff or stereo inconsistency that passive potentiometers or active electronics can have.






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I use the M3PHmk3 which has amazing build quality and works great paired with my Lynx Aurora(n) converter.


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