# Question about Vi Control



## kurtvanzo (Sep 28, 2015)

Just wanted to let everyone know I posted some advice on a few solo instruments last week under Spitfire's commercial page (didn't realize that's where I was, just responding to a post asking about Albion 1 and Symphobia). Then I get an email from Fredrick stating:

"Posting competing developer's links and videos in a paid commercial thread does not follow our rules for our commercial forum and is therefore inappropriate. Please post these comparisons in SAMPLE TALK. 

Your account's access may be limited based on these actions. Please keep this in mind when posting or using our site."

Since this email my account has become super slow, even when just changing pages (sometimes going to a blank white page- making be go back and try again) and the inbox and Alerts no longer work. I returned an apology email and deleted the offending post (even before signing in and realizing the slow down), then asked how long the "limited access" might last- no reply to either email. 

I understand I made a mistake, but this came without warning. Perhaps Spitfire gave them trouble for it, but I would think this would be communicated. It's sad that after all the friendly advice I've given on this site- one faulty post and I'm booted off, no warning (Oh yes, I did post earlier where someone could get a deal on Albion, but that was explained and deleted).

Before I leave I just want to ask everyone, does that seem fair? Perhaps when a commercial client complains, fair doesn't factor in, after all, to some cash is king. Perhaps he had to act to save the client, I understand. I've had to do radical things to save clients too (like fire an arranger or assistant) but I tried to let them know why, and I kept in touch with those that reach out. Perhaps because it was the second time Spitfire complained about me specifically it was warranted, but there was no warning to this effect in the first set of emails. Regardless, I understand and hope their relationship with Spitfire was not compromised, for that I'm truly sorry.

I hope you all have better results here than I have. I've never had this problem with KVR or Gearsluts, and I've been on them a long time. I'm sure this was just a business decision. Please let Spitfire know the troublemaker is gone, I hope my past donations to the site are put to good use.

-All the best in your music creation.

My booted post is below, you decide (yes, I realize it was in the wrong forum and has been deleted). Pity it took me a while to get this to post (limited access), I doubt I'll have time to get back and wait for the page to reload. 

Your message (http://vi-control.net/community/posts/3897842/ (!! SPITFIRE - A NEW BEGINNING FULL TEASER VIDEO AND PRICING DETAILS)) contains inappropriate advertising or spam:
atw said: ↑
Wow, it seems you are very talented, I would like to see some examples...

_PS: I was talking about Symphobia 1_

Hey atw, I understand your frustration. There are so many good libraries out there it's hard to decide. Without clear research and walk through videos it can be hard to tell what your getting for the price.

I have Symphobia 1, Albion 1, Hollywood Orch Diamond, Cinesamples everything, Cinematic Strings 2, Sample Modeling and some Orchestral Tools. Purchased over years, each one has its own use and color, but some of the sweetest strings and smoothest brass reside in Albion 1- and the price can't be beat. If you can find Symphobia 1 (used?) for close to Albion's $230 then go for it, but otherwise I would grab this sale while you can. Sym1 is a great deal at that price but $600 was the best price I found.

Second I would use the money you DON'T spend on S1 or Albion One and instead suggest buying solo instruments (if you don't have them already) to lay over the sweet Albion 1 bed. If you haven't seen it already Emotional Cello plays over A1 beautifully (one of my favorites- $219 in cart at AudioDeluxe.com)...

Or Violin with OTs Nocturne Violin:

http://www.orchestraltools.com/soloists_series/libraries/nocturne_violin.php

Or Woodwinds with Exp B or C from OT...

http://www.orchestraltools.com/libraries/bww_exp_b.php

Just some ideas that would do more for you than spending extra money on something similar to Albion 1. There are also percussion and sound design patches in Albion 1 that don't exist in Symphobia 1 (no Perc). 

All the best on your search.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 28, 2015)

Now you know what/whom they really mean when they say "musicians helping musicians".


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## blougui (Sep 28, 2015)

I should be banned too then, as i gave some kind of advice to atw concerning purchasing Symphobia or Albion on the same thread ?
to avoid over-reaction on this commercial announcement forum, it should be limited to developper comments and announcements. It's a forum I don't quite get anymore : big dev leave it, at least most of them, I mean they tend not to answer questions anymore. 
But Guy has been banned a few months back on the sample forum, for starting a threadl about some issues he had with a library he had from Spitfire audio - well, it was a bit more complicated. Spitfire has stated they had nothing to do with the ban and I trust them for not being involved in your, kurtvanso, "punishment". But do not leave yet, your presence is appreciated here, you're a nice fellow and you obviously only tried to help here, not being the first one to name a competitor dev but catching up with a conversation that started pages ago.
The whole albion One thread , at least a big chunk of it, has been whinning long before your attempt at helping a fellow forumer about his purchasing (un)decision.

Erik


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## synthpunk (Sep 28, 2015)

I believe it might be best to make Commercial Announcements locked and private (to members) then and ask developers to watch Sample talk for user questions, etc.


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## Øivind (Sep 28, 2015)

I agree with aesthete.

Could even have a forum feature where you can create a new thread based on a thread in the commercial announcement part of the forum, and if one already was created, you just get re-directed to that thread and can post. That way, all discussions regarding that announcement get contained in one thread, it's easy to find for everyone, but it wont mess up the announcement thread.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 28, 2015)

There is occasionally capricious behavior by moderators here. I've mentioned it fairly mildly in the past, and received some rather extreme reactions. Of course, everyone is human and everyone makes errors in judgement, and in general the moderation here is light handed. You've experienced the other side of the coin. It's not you, it was indeed an overreaction, assuming if course that it went down the way you described it. At worst, having removed the post and expressed contrition, you should be given a clear understanding of your sentence and its length.

I would think that yes, this is about business. It's Frederick's forum and he can run it any way he chooses.

I agree with locking Commercial Announcements, which will remove the problem immediately. Of course, it will then not allow for 18 page rhapsodic and worshipful postings, which would be value lost


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## JohnG (Sep 28, 2015)

I don't see what you're complaining about. You made a mistake and the rules were enforced. No big deal. I don't think we need an ominous "warning about v.i. control" over it. That's goofy.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 28, 2015)

Adults generally don't like to be spanked. You don't think a warning might have been the more temperate response?


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## D.Salzenberg (Sep 28, 2015)

Personally I don't think this is a good state of affairs. I can understand that the forum relies on money from companies who advertise on here in order to keep running and offer a free forum for the rest of us. So obviously if clients get annoyed there is a chance they will stop advertising. So within reason members of the forum should bear this in mind. However several people on that thread were openly hostile over Spitfires marketing strategy, while others were only trying to help with pointing out competing products.
Maybe we would all be better off if the forum didn't rely on advertising revenue from developers.
I really love this forum, but the whole idea of a forum is for open debate, not censorship based on advertisers getting upset.


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## mverta (Sep 28, 2015)

The new VI-Control is based on the Xenforo platform, which I also use for a couple of my sites. One of Xenforo's more notorious...ly popular options is: user discouragement. From the user guide:

For problematic or unwanted visitors, there are various tools which can be utilized to deal with them.

*User Discouragement*
The user discouragement feature subjects users to random errors, delays, and pages, simulating failures in the system behavior, with the ultimate aim of making them eventually leave the site.

I have no dog in this race, and have absolutely no idea if this was utilized or not, but I thought people might find such a feature interesting.


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## Mystic (Sep 28, 2015)

I'm failing to see the issue here. The rule is in place to keep things on topic for companies to post about new products on that one particular forum and answer questions people might have about that product they are promoting so it's understandable they would want to keep the forum as clean as possible and prevent people from posting about other products in their thread. You were given a minor warning about doing that and no actions taken against your account. They aren't going to limit access for something like that because I'm sure it's a common mistake people make on here. All the warning was for was to let you know what happened so you don't do it in the future.

It was such a minor thing and you're really making a mountain out of a mole hill.


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## tack (Sep 28, 2015)

aesthete said:


> I believe it might be best to make Commercial announcement locked and private then and ask developers to watch Sample talk for user questions, etc.


If I were a developer, I would find that a devastatingly bad idea. Talk about the kiss of death for your commercial announcements.

What's the #1 thing user engagement in these threads -- and this even includes posts about competing products -- provides? It bumps your post. It keeps it current, keeps it on the latest posts page (which frankly is the only page I bother to look at), and keeps it on the front page of the commercial announcements forum. The _only_ reason I've been following that Spitfire thread is because it keeps showing up on the Latest Posts page. Posts about similar competing products shouldn't frighten anyone who produces a quality product. And developer participation can surely help to keep the discussion on point.

But making this optional, and the choice of the poster, is perhaps not a bad idea. Certainly this would be preferable to censoring or deleting posts from users who haven't necessarily read section 4, paragraph 2, subsection c.


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 28, 2015)

mverta said:


> The new VI-Control is based on the Xenforo platform, which I also use for a couple of my sites. One of Xenforo's more notorious...ly popular options is: user discouragement. From the user guide:
> 
> For problematic or unwanted visitors, there are various tools which can be utilized to deal with them.
> 
> ...



Thanks Mike! This is exactly what's happening (even as I type this errors pop up and pages don't load). Although at first it annoyed me, now that you explain it I think it's brilliant! Never thought a system would put in intentional errors, white pages, and slow the system to a crawl but sure enough, you describe it all so perfectly.

No problem, I'm glad to know they've built a defense for wise-acres like me, and all those people that cause trouble.


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## D.Salzenberg (Sep 28, 2015)

Well, I would think that those who initiated the question of competing products are to blame much more than someone just trying to help by answering a query.
There were other much more serious posts practically accusing Spitfire of going back on there word and basically lying about their pricing strategy. I could well understand any developer being angry with that, but I don't see where the problem is in just trying to answer someone else's query.


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## tack (Sep 28, 2015)

kurtvanzo said:


> Thanks Mike! This is exactly what's happening (even as I type this errors pop up and pages don't load).


Wow, if this is actually what the Powers That Be here did ... I don't even have words. That could be the douchiest thing I've seen on a forum in the past year -- and that includes things done by anonymous users. I'm not going to draw any conclusions about whether this happened, but I'd hope that Frederick tackles that head on.


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## synthpunk (Sep 28, 2015)

Paranoia will destroy yah
The Kinks 



tack said:


> Wow, if this is actually what the Powers That Be here did ... I don't even have words. That could be the douchiest thing I've seen on a forum in the past year -- and that includes things done by anonymous users. I'm not going to draw any conclusions about whether this happened, but I'd hope that Frederick tackles that head on.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 28, 2015)

Okay, I was the moderator who moved this for discussion with other moderators. We got a "reported post" complaint about it being bad form to post competitive links *in a commercial announcement.*

And, frankly, it is. Again: IN A COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCEMENT. But it never occurred to me that Kurt meant any harm by his post; the only question is whether it should remain there. It would be one thing if he were trying to sell his own wares, but I don't think that's what's going on here.

Right?

In the meantime I want to caution against everyone going into general decline and assuming that this forum has turned into an evil empire under corporate control. I promise you it hasn't.

At the same time, Kurt, while I personally feel that "mistakes may possibly have been made" on our end, posting the same damn post again with a warning about VI Control is probably not a great idea.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 28, 2015)

Personally, I found your posts about Symphobia annoying because I was reading the thread for info about a Spitfire project, and you were going on for more than one post. I can understand veering off in a long thread, but this was just becoming distracting. Your response, TBH, is exaggerated.

PS: If only I had a dollar for every time over the past few years that people have gone on about how this place has gone down, commercial entities have too much power, mods are too heavy-handed/too absent, etc. Give it up, already.


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## proxima (Sep 28, 2015)

JohnG said:


> I don't see what you're complaining about. You made a mistake and the rules were enforced. No big deal. I don't think we need an ominous "warning about v.i. control" over it. That's goofy.


If the "User Discouragement" feature Mike Verta described is what is being used, I think a thread is definitely warranted. I would not expect such a feature to be within the realm of "Your account's access may be limited based on these actions". We do need confirmation that this was in fact used.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 28, 2015)

Goodness- three moderators agreeing with their own decision.

Stop the presses!

You dudes are some funny mofos sometimes. 

Look. The guy isn't complaining that he was warned about something. Instead, he seems to have done a mea culpa. What he's complaining about (which you guys are not addressing) is that he was "punished" for it despite the mea culpa.

I understand the rule about Commercial Announcements. I agree with it. I just think a simple warning was what was called for here. If the behavior continued, I could certainly understand the need for a more stringent response.


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 28, 2015)

Hi guys, I checked with the hosting company because I myself have had my own share of problems accessing the site. While I'd love to say that I used this "cool feature so now I get to shoot myself in the foot by self-sabotage" but that was not the case. My own problems accessing the site has lasted for three days. There was an attack on the server over the weekend and the hosting company mentioned that some IPs were blocked that were accessing the server at the time - mine included. This has since been repaired.

I'd like to also draw attention to the fact that no opinions are being censored here in this thread. 

We separated Sample Talk and Commercial Announcements to keep the membership clear of advertisements. Clearly that isn't working because on one hand, members don't like it when developers "spam" Sample Talk but feel free to use an announcement of Spitfire to talk about ProjectSAM and Orchestral Tools (all three are advertising developers here by the way so I'm not playing favorites). If there is a better solution, I'm open to it.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 28, 2015)

Good statement. Thanks, Frederick.


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## synthpunk (Sep 28, 2015)

After you call the moderators mofo's (don't think were at the club or on a construction site), nice to suck up to Frederick 

Perhaps Frederick should poll his commercial posters and see what they want, they pay to be able to post there.




NYC Composer said:


> Good statement. Thanks, Frederick.


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## tack (Sep 28, 2015)

Frederick Russ said:


> Hi guys, I checked with the hosting company because I myself have had my own share of problems accessing the site. While I'd love to say that I used this "cool feature so now I get to shoot myself in the foot by self-sabotage" but that was not the case.


Thanks for following up, Frederick. Sorry to hear about the DoS.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 28, 2015)

It's musician talk. Sorry if it offends your, er, aesthetic sensibilities. 


As to sucking up, I gave that up years ago. I think it's usually a good idea for an owner to check in occasionally, re the status of his product. It give me a sense of comfort, like a nice blankie.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 28, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Goodness- three moderators agreeing with their own decision.



FYI: I haven't been a mod for at least 2 years. I fly my own flag now.


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## gbar (Sep 28, 2015)

kurtvanzo said:


> Just wanted to let everyone know I posted some advice



Here's some advice: this poorly thought out manipulative nonsense is annoying


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## NYC Composer (Sep 28, 2015)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> FYI: I haven't been a mod for at least 2 years. I fly my own flag now.



Noted. Let your freak flag fly.


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## synthpunk (Sep 28, 2015)

I guess my mother brought me up better than that 



NYC Composer said:


> It's musician talk. Sorry if it offends your, er, aesthetic sensibilities.
> 
> 
> As to sucking up, I gave that up years ago. I think it's usually a good idea for an owner to check in occasionally, re the status of his product. It give me a sense of comfort, like a nice blankie.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 28, 2015)

aesthete said:


> I guess my mother brought me up better than that



Pardon me ever so. I'm sure your mother is a fine, upstanding lady who taught you everything you needed to know on this earth. My own sainted mater would be saddened to hear that you don't feel she did a fine job by me. She might think you were implying that I was raised by wolves-thereby implying that she HERSELF was a wolf, at which point she would probably bare her fangs and become truly frightening.

Do you think, for the sake of unwitting and innnocent bystanders, that you could let this go now before your next attack of prissiness? I wasn't speaking to you in the first place, I was speaking to John, Nick and erstwhile moderator Ned, now flying under his own pirate flag. I most humbly and sincerely beg your forgiveness for my improper descent into the urban slang of my degenerate youth, spent among the savages of the rhythm and blues world where such language was commonplace and humor was recognized and given a bit of leeway in its expression.

Thank you, kind sir.


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## chimuelo (Sep 28, 2015)

Wouldn't that be cool though to make someones PC slow down to Tablet speed.
Or better yet their QWERTY disappears and they have to wait for a refresh to continue typing a few words and have it disappear again......


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## synthpunk (Sep 28, 2015)

I know a few black hats that could help Chim. Pm me lol 



chimuelo said:


> Wouldn't that be cool though to make someones PC slow down to Tablet speed.
> Or better yet their QWERTY disappears and they have to wait for a refresh to continue typing a few words and have it disappear again......


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## catsass (Sep 28, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> Wouldn't that be cool though to make someones PC slow down to Tablet speed.
> Or better yet their QWERTY disappears and they have to wait for a refresh to continue typing a few words and have it disappear again......



Or even better...


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## prodigalson (Sep 28, 2015)

that is what reading this thread felt like...


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 28, 2015)

Frederick Russ said:


> Hi guys, I checked with the hosting company because I myself have had my own share of problems accessing the site. While I'd love to say that I used this "cool feature so now I get to shoot myself in the foot by self-sabotage" but that was not the case. My own problems accessing the site has lasted for three days. There was an attack on the server over the weekend and the hosting company mentioned that some IPs were blocked that were accessing the server at the time - mine included. This has since been repaired.
> 
> I'd like to also draw attention to the fact that no opinions are being censored here in this thread.
> 
> We separated Sample Talk and Commercial Announcements to keep the membership clear of advertisements. Clearly that isn't working because on one hand, members don't like it when developers "spam" Sample Talk but feel free to use an announcement of Spitfire to talk about ProjectSAM and Orchestral Tools (all three are advertising developers here by the way so I'm not playing favorites). If there is a better solution, I'm open to it.



Thanks for replying Fredrick, but I don't believe my issue was accessing the server, since when I signed out of my account I whizzed through the pages like butter. When I signed into a friend's account, again, like butter (same ip address, same hookup) but when I went back to my account- same slow response, white pages, and errors (average error on just loading a page would be 1 out of 3). Went back and forth several times to be sure over the last 3 days (ran a bunch of tests). Clearly a switch was flipped.

But I have no problem with it. I understand having to take precautions and I now know how serious of an issue it is for VI Control, so my warning is to let others know not to cross that line, keep commercial announcements on point and do not to mention other developers. I understand also if you wanted to lock the commercial announcement page, I just don't want others to make the same mistake I did. Apologies for causing a moderator pow-wow.

But I'm a composer like the rest here, nothing to sell. I appreciate you flipping the switch back after posting (yes, it's back to normal), but I don't think there is any harm in letting people know that the switch exists or that sometimes it comes into play. It may even get people to think a bit before they post, not a bad thing.

So thank you moderators for trying to keep things on track and keeping Vi rolling, I realize it ain't easy. 

Good time for me to get back to work and keep my eyes on the ball. Thanks for the motivation!  -Kurt


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 28, 2015)

I'm proud to be a mofo. Not literally, I mean in the Larry sense.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 28, 2015)

Kurt, Frederick is not lying to you. If you'd met him you'd know right away why I say that.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 28, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm proud to be a mofo. Not literally, I mean in the Larry sense.



'zactly.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 28, 2015)

Moderator pow-wow ... what, where, did I miss something? 

Ah I see, _user discouragement_. The birth of a new urban legend. We were there, ha.


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## FriFlo (Sep 29, 2015)

My idea about commercial threads hasn't changed since the last problem of this kind: if there is a commercial announcement section in this forum, it must be only be possible for the thread creator to post there. Otherwise, it is really pointless to have it. Is the purpose of it to just have the announcement and lots of people congratulating on the release? What would that be good for in a forum? There can be as many rules as you wish, but people will start discussing that release there. It is obviously the developers intention to be discussed and by that keeping the thread up in line. And that is the reason, why you won't close the commercial threads for comments. Be honest about it and all those problems could easily be solved ...


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## NYC Composer (Sep 29, 2015)

That Mike Verta. Always makin' up stories!


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## Lode_Runner (Sep 29, 2015)

Hi Kurtvanzo, while I know it's against the rules to mention competing products in a commercial announcements thread, I think there were far more negative posts on there from a commercial announcements perspective. Not mentioning any names, but it was a different user who brought up Symphobia in the first place, and who was also repeatedly critical of Spitfire demanding more information immediately. By comparison I found your post was absolutely glowing about Albion and didn't compare it unfavourably with Symphobia except one sentence says that if Symphobia could be found at a similar price to Albion to get Symphobia. Personally, I find your posts are usually very positive, enthusiastic and keen to help people, and I hope you'll be sticking around.


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## D.Salzenberg (Sep 29, 2015)

Lode_Runner said:


> Hi Kurtvanzo, while I know it's against the rules to mention competing products in a commercial announcements thread, I think there were far more negative posts on there from a commercial announcements perspective. Not mentioning any names, but it was a different user who brought up Symphobia in the first place, and who was also repeatedly critical of Spitfire demanding more information immediately. By comparison I found your post was absolutely glowing about Albion and didn't compare it unfavourably with Symphobia except one sentence says that if Symphobia could be found at a similar price to Albion to get Symphobia. Personally, I find your posts are usually very positive, enthusiastic and keen to help people, and I hope you'll be sticking around.


Exactly!!!! 
I made the same point. It looks like it's OK to be extremely obnoxious and even call developers liars, and ask for information on competitors, but anyone who just tries to answer someone's question and posts a link gets into trouble! 
This makes absolutely no sense at all.
I would suggest the moderators need to take the time to read the whole thread and look at things in context, and then issue warnings to the right people.


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## sin(x) (Sep 29, 2015)

The unspoken rule of having to keep up the illusion of an alternate reality where other developers' products don't exist when discussing things in a specific subforum is all kinds of messed up. You're literally asking users to self-censor in order to help with your advertisers' marketing efforts, and in a rather underhanded way to boot – there's nothing about the landing page of that subforum that suggests this rule being in place, neither in the description nor the sticky posts. Maybe it's because as soon as you begin to put it into words, it's becoming clear that it's rather creepy? "Please line up to join the chorus of exaltation. Don't forget: while you're in here, your outside world does not exist"?

If kurtvanzo's quote on the first page was indeed the post that triggered that response, it's an utterly bizarre reaction. He literally *encouraged* someone to go with Spitfire's products and then made some suggestions on what to do with the leftover money. Not even a tiny bit of criticism or negativity. I can very much see why he re-posted it with an explanation of what happened here, I'd have done the same thing in his position. And then probably left for greener pastures.


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## D.Salzenberg (Sep 29, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> My idea about commercial threads hasn't changed since the last problem of this kind: if there is a commercial announcement section in this forum, it must be only be possible for the thread creator to post there. Otherwise, it is really pointless to have it. Is the purpose of it to just have the announcement and lots of people congratulating on the release? What would that be good for in a forum? There can be as many rules as you wish, but people will start discussing that release there. It is obviously the developers intention to be discussed and by that keeping the thread up in line. And that is the reason, why you won't close the commercial threads for comments. Be honest about it and all those problems could easily be solved ...


Well, I think developers and users need for there to be a discussion. In Spitfires case they obviously use creative marketing tactics in order to create a buzz and get everyone talking. Some people will want to criticise stuff which is what a forum is for, if only positive comments such as all the devs friends and fanboys posting how they can't wait, and how awesome it will be are allowed it's just stupid. However there should be a line of decency and respect that keeps things civil. Sadly some people will always go way overboard.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 29, 2015)

This whole commercial thread rule seems a bit problematic. A commercial thread is essentially a marketing vehicle and that's OK ... but it's also a strange situation where it's supposed to be some "protected space" where a dev can count on the cheerleading, but also gets to object to any kind of commentary they consider unfavorable. It's like these ads that are filmed in a way to have you believe it's real people commenting and not actors. It's a great idea - community-propelled buzz that keeps the thread up and generates interest in the product.

Well that's fine I guess, but it's misleading and a bit of a pitfall for the unsuspecting forum user, because to them, it "looks" like a plain old thread, where common sense applies. They don't realize they walked onto a staged film set, they thought they were passing a real parade, if you know what I mean. The transition from being on a forum and walking into a live ad is quite invisible. Sure, technically it's covered somewhere in the fine print that probably no one reads. In practice though, it's a laid out banana peel that people who never meant any harm can slip on.

In this case, I think the slap on the wrist hit the wrong guy. As others have pointed out - his posts weren't short of praise for SF and Albion, he was just trying to help and there were other voices in that thread that were far more hostile and chronically defeatist.


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## atw (Sep 29, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> I made the same point. It looks like it's OK to be extremely obnoxious and even call developers liars, and ask for information on competitors, but anyone who just tries to answer someone's question and posts a link gets into trouble!
> This makes absolutely no sense at all.
> I would suggest the moderators need to take the time to read the whole thread and look at things in context, and then issue warnings to the right people.



D. Salzenberg, if you are pointing at me.....
Show me the complete post where i was asking for it !!!

There was never a query on my side. I never asked for other products!
I already know what is inside Albion 1 and Symphobia 1. And i never wanted a comparison.
I asked for information about ablion One (at least the articulation list).

So don't blame me. And don't put wrong words in my mouth.

When i said "The question for me is: Albion 1 OR Symphobia 1". I was talking about my decision.
And the only thing which could helped me was the articulation list (or more info) of Albion One.
Because i know the sound (and other info) of both Albion 1 and Symphobia 1.

And i called no one a liar!!

Sorry to write this but, D.Salzenberg is wrong.


And Kurt, the quote you have shown here is incomplete.
That what i said was a response to Vastman's statement.
Where he said: "I have ProjetSam OE 1&2... I can make all the multi's and track templates from Albion 1 to blow OE 1/2 away..."


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## D.Salzenberg (Sep 29, 2015)

Atw, I was referring to posts made by some people, I forget who, who were getting all hysterical over Spitfires pricing policy with the sale price, and were accusing them of going back on their word etc. 
Sorry if you thought this was aimed at you.


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## gbar (Sep 29, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> This whole commercial thread rule seems a bit problematic. A commercial thread is essentially a marketing vehicle and that's OK ... but it's also a strange situation where it's supposed to be some "protected space" where a dev can count on the cheerleading, but also gets to object to any kind of commentary they consider unfavorable..




Well, that's not exactly the whole of it, is it? I mean people have pointed out issues they have had, people have made suggestions for improvements within the context of those threads.

I think that when you get completely off the topic of the current announcement, you are missing the point of it, and that's probably why the idea of having a separate forum for sample talk evolved: so developers could make commercial announcements, maybe even get a little feedback from the community about the offerings, but not have every thread devolve into "Oh yeah, well I own blah, blah, blah and blah, blah, blah because blah, blah, blah" .


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## FriFlo (Sep 29, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> Well, I think developers and users need for there to be a discussion. In Spitfires case they obviously use creative marketing tactics in order to create a buzz and get everyone talking. Some people will want to criticise stuff which is what a forum is for, if only positive comments such as all the devs friends and fanboys posting how they can't wait, and how awesome it will be are allowed it's just stupid. However there should be a line of decency and respect that keeps things civil. Sadly some people will always go way overboard.


Yeah, but the problem is always there is no common sense on what decency is for that matter. Sure, from time to time there may be people using improper language, to describe a product or developer. But, honestly, I haven't seen that very often! Most of the time there is just somebody saying what he dislikes about a developer or his products or his attitude towards customers and that alone is reason enough for so many people to call those claims not decent. More often than not, these folks get un-decent in their choice of words themselves! This is happening anyway, may it be in sample talk or in commercial announcements. I guess you cannot do much about that! But it is completely unnecessary to have some strange rules to this section of the forum, that aren't even applied most of the time. And then suddenly by chance somebody gets hit ... Either, those rules must be applied, but then it doesn't make much sense to me to have this section be open for comments at all ... or you are open to discussion, but then it doesn't make sense to have special rules on what can be talked about in that section ... there will again and again be scenarios like this one! Who would want that?


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## Polarity (Sep 29, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> Atw, I was referring to posts made by some people, I forget who, who were getting all hysterical over Spitfires pricing policy with the sale price, and were accusing them of going back on their word etc.
> Sorry if you thought this was aimed at you.


It wasn't me either...
I expressed infact a positive comment about fair prices by SF; my only doubt was about what to do resulting from "can or can't use" my discount coupon... just my only personal case.
As for ATW, the patches-articulations list of AlbionOne would help the decision before Albion1 vanishes.
If Albion1 sale would have terminated just the day after (or the same day) AlbionOne is out... I would have not raised also my hand to ask for it and just waited the "doom" day


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## D.Salzenberg (Sep 29, 2015)

Sorry if I have misrepresented anyone or misremembered the thread. I'm having a bad week and haven't had time to reread all the discussions.


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## chimuelo (Sep 29, 2015)

Well those conflicted over pricing should go to the garage sales at the bottom of the threads page.

Used 1s and 0s are actually re sold and often for less.


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## wpc982 (Sep 29, 2015)

Love the user discouragement notion. Locking the commercial forum seemed like a good idea at first, but I suppose developers want good user feedback (and the ability to fake it, too, no doubt). I confess I never noticed the difference in "rules" ... so have probably been guilty of the same kind of contrary post. .. now I know .. and most likely, now I will very rarely vist that forum. We'll see.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 29, 2015)

Speaking not for EW but for myself as the EW Online Coordinator if I post in the Commercial Announcements that Hollywood Harp is out when it comes out and link to some demos, i will not have a problem if someone writes "I think Harp from Company X sounds better" or "I prefer the way it handles its articulations to HH" etc. I will personally have no problem, nor will Doug I believe. 

I think Kurt made an innocent newbie mistake that a simple removing of the post along with a PM telling him why and warning him not to do it again would have been sufficient. Ironic, because I am the guy who always says that the mods should do _more_ moderating


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## NYC Composer (Sep 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Speaking not for EW but for myself as the EW Online Coordinator if I post in the Commercial Announcements that Hollywood Harp is out when it comes out and link to some demos, i will not have a problem if someone writes "I think Harp from Company X sounds better" or "I prefer the way it handles its articulations to HH" etc. I will personally have no problem, nor will Doug I believe.
> 
> I think Kurt made an innocent newbie mistake that a simple removing of the post along with a PM telling him why and warning him not to do it again would have been sufficient. Ironic, because I am the guy who always says that the mods should do _more_ moderating



Right on, right on. Gentle warning, but for a second offense, beheading.


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## Øivind (Sep 29, 2015)

Maybe a note in the comment box, when commenting in commercial posts about the rules? Should help remind people before they post about what their posts can contain.


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## jacobthestupendous (Sep 29, 2015)

Seems like maybe the line that kurtvanzo crossed was that he posted _links_. It was one thing for several users to object to various aspects of the announcement and even to discuss alternatives, but they didn't _link_ to any competitors' websites in the thread. I haven't read section 2, paragraph 4, subsection c, though, so this is just a guess.


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## jacobthestupendous (Sep 29, 2015)

oivind_rosvold said:


> Maybe a note in the comment box, when commenting in commercial posts about the rules?


I like this idea a lot.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 29, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Right on, right on. Gentle warning, but for a second offense, beheading.



No beheading is too severe, castration will be sufficient I think


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## kunst91 (Sep 29, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Right on, right on. Gentle warning, but for a second offense, beheading.



We who are about to die salute you!


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## kunst91 (Sep 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> No beheading is too severe, castration will be sufficient I think



That escalated quickly...


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 29, 2015)

Just Larry and me doing our Anarchist vs Moderate dog and pony show

EDIT: This is a joke, I respect Larry. He and I have different philosophies but he is true to his code.


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## Mystic (Sep 29, 2015)

"Your account's access may be limited based on these actions" is a general script moderators use on forums.


EastWest Lurker said:


> Speaking not for EW but for myself as the EW Online Coordinator if I post in the Commercial Announcements that Hollywood Harp is out when it comes out and link to some demos, i will not have a problem if someone writes "I think Harp from Company X sounds better" or "I prefer the way it handles its articulations to HH" etc. I will personally have no problem, nor will Doug I believe.


So what you're trying to say... is that Hollywood Harp is coming out tomorrow?!? :D
j/k


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## kunst91 (Sep 29, 2015)

This thread has been a welcome distraction from trying to make a living!


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 29, 2015)

Mystic said:


> "Your account's access may be limited based on these actions" is a general script moderators use on forums.
> 
> So what you're trying to say... is that Hollywood Harp is coming out tomorrow?!? :D
> j/k



I wish, I am really looking forward to it.


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## Vastman (Sep 29, 2015)

I truly luv this forum as well as my beloved cakewalk forum...so much insight and sharing is special and unique...

However at times i note that users begin to act like my flock of chickens, going after each other in a way that makes me wince...

While they are lucky to have an amazing space within my urban farm, they still act out over senseless stuff.

We should be able to do better...

I fully understand we artists can be prissy prima donnas at times but really... This is a wonderful place and we should try to communicate with that in mind...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> No beheading is too severe, castration will be sufficient I think



At first I thought: wouldn't that be the same? But then I realized those body parts serve different functions: one is for thinking, the other one for breathing.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 29, 2015)

Hey, I thought my "I was raised by wolves" post was pretty good.
I mean, that was some of my best material. Man. Comedy is...hard.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Just Larry and me doing our Anarchist vs Moderate dog and pony show



(Am I the anarchist?)


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 29, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Hey, I thought my "I was raised by wolves" post was pretty good.
> I mean, that was some of my best material. Man. Comedy is...hard.



It WAS very funny, Larry. As Chim would say, "Ankyu."


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## tmm (Sep 29, 2015)

The internet: the only place where a discussion like this lasts for 18 hours (or starts at all).


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## kunst91 (Sep 29, 2015)

tmm said:


> The internet: the only place where a discussion like this lasts for 18 hours (or starts at all).



Thank Al Gore!


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 29, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> (Am I the anarchist?)




Absolutely


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## procreative (Sep 29, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> Atw, I was referring to posts made by some people, I forget who, who were getting all hysterical over Spitfires pricing policy with the sale price, and were accusing them of going back on their word etc.
> Sorry if you thought this was aimed at you.



I do not remember anyone getting hysterical about their pricing policy. Have we suddenly stepped in a USSR style PRAVDA where only one version of the truth is allowed? I think its perfectly fair to comment on the cross grade/pricing policy on the commercial thread as that is where the price has been announced.

I do not think pointing out disparities in pricing and changes of pricing policy are an attack on a developer and a thick skinned businessman sometimes uses this feedback as useful customer insight.

Nothing posted was either inflammatory or rude (unlike the moderator post I saw on another thread where he called the OP a "wanker" which was not very articulate).


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## Bunford (Sep 29, 2015)

aesthete said:


> I believe it might be best to make Commercial Announcements locked and private (to members) then and ask developers to watch Sample talk for user questions, etc.


I never understood why they aren't locked anyway. If developers don't want to hear the 'bad' and only want plaudits, then they either need to have a bit of a reality check (all developers) as that ain't ever gonna happen. There will always be people unhappy with developers for one reason or another. If you are going to block the negative comments, then that is no less than treating unhappy paying customers as second rate unimportant customers, which seems out of order to me as they have ultimately invested in and purchased items from that developer at the same price as the happy customers. In doing so, they should be fully entitled to express their opinions, even if that is negative or offer comparator libraries as better alternatives, even on paid commercial threads. If developers do not want this and only want the 'good', then they should lock the commercial threads as that is never going to happen and what is currently happening appears to be filtering out the 'bad' and portraying a misleading perception of their company as one that can do no wrong due to all the 'good' comments to potential future buyers.

If anything, to me, developers should be listening MORE to unhappy customers and trying to plug them holes to convert as many of them as possible to happy customers and get as much as they can onboard. Surely that is just good business sense?!

Anyway, just my tuppence worth!


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## Vin (Sep 29, 2015)

aesthete said:


> I believe it might be best to make Commercial Announcements locked and private (to members) then and ask developers to watch Sample talk for user questions, etc.



This.

And problem solved.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 29, 2015)

Hmm ... am I the only one that understands the Commercial Announcement forum differently? As I see it you _can _be critical in those threads ... as long as it is about that product. For example if developer X releases product X' and opens a thread in Commercial Announcements and you did not get your copy you can ask there (common sense says: after contacting their support and waiting a proper time). Or if you have difficulties with the installation or usage. Or asking for an update because you found a bug.

It gets difficult if you use their thread in order to discuss product Y' by developer Y. That would be more suited in Samples Talk.

To be fair a sticky with some explanation directly in Commercial Announcements wouldn't hurt I guess ...


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## ryanstrong (Sep 29, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Hmm ... am I the only one that understands the Commercial Announcement forum differently? As I see it you _can _be critical in those threads ... as long as it is about that product. For example if developer X releases product X' and opens a thread in Commercial Announcements and you did not get your copy you can ask there (common sense says: after contacting their support and waiting a proper time). Or if you have difficulties with the installation or usage. Or asking for an update because you found a bug.
> 
> It gets difficult if you use their thread in order to discuss product Y' by developer Y. That would be more suited in Samples Talk.
> 
> To be fair a sticky with some explanation directly in Commercial Announcements wouldn't hurt I guess ...


I don't really see the commercial announcement a place for those conversations because those conversations have been had for basic "customer service" and the developer usually asks for you to go through their ticket system.

SO you can't ask customer service questions, you can't really discuss critically by referencing competing products etc. There really isn't much to converse about in those threads except pats on the backs.

I really do think Commercial Announcements should be just that. An announcement and LOCKED.


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 29, 2015)

I think having a general poll might be a good idea. That's exactly how we cleared Sample Talk of all the commercial announcements. If Sample Talk gets littered with commercial announcements, then we may have to revisit this again. 

By the way, I'm moving this thread to the off topics section. It has less to do with Samples and more to do discussion about the forum. Thread is completely intact – just placed in a section which is relevant for the discussion.


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## atw (Sep 29, 2015)

We shouldn't only protect the developers "position", we should also protect the customers/users "position".
Of course developers pay for advertising, but on the other hand it's also VI-Control's user base, in which developers are interested in. Not only but i guess mostly. There are customers/potential customers and therefore also money!


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## D.Salzenberg (Sep 29, 2015)

Yes definitely agree.
Overall I would say that in spite of some negatives Spitfire are probably pretty happy with all the discussions that have kicked off from their initial announcement.
Looking forward to some more info.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 29, 2015)

Procreative:



> Nothing posted was either inflammatory or rude (unlike the moderator post I saw on another thread where he called the OP a "wanker" which was not very articulate).



I said EW was right to ignore the wanker in the video, not that the OP was a wanker. Unlike what you're doing here, I didn't attack another forum member personally.

But you're right, I wasn't being articulate. I should have said they're right to ignore the *ridiculous* wanker in that video.


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## stixman (Sep 29, 2015)

There is another option~ Voluntary Labotomy


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

kurtvanzo said:


> Just wanted to let everyone know I posted some advice on a few solo instruments last week under Spitfire's commercial page (didn't realize that's where I was, just responding to a post asking about Albion 1 and Symphobia). Then I get an email from Fredrick stating:
> 
> "Posting competing developer's links and videos in a paid commercial thread does not follow our rules for our commercial forum and is therefore inappropriate. Please post these comparisons in SAMPLE TALK.
> 
> ...



I only read helpful advice and great respect for the product. I will be reading further but I don't think you should leave over this. As you seem to understand there are some adjustments needing to be made, so I would give it some time. I can understand the long list of justifications that could be given to explain the drastic move, however, I think there does need to be a BUFFER zone with clear and gracious parameters. 

I vote to assume the best from our members and developers at all times. This members has spent quite a bit of money supporting the products he mentions. Let us be wise...

Regards,

Andre


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## procreative (Sep 29, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Procreative:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As a moderator I would expect you to choose a slightly less inflammatory and offensive term. You are supposed to moderate which means keep the equilibrium. Its irrelevant who you were saying it to.

I am not attacking you, but perhaps I hit a nerve if you feel that way?

I am simply rather astounded at the language you used as a moderator.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 29, 2015)

procreative said:


> As a moderator I would expect you to choose a slightly less inflammatory and offensive term. You are supposed to moderate which means keep the equilibrium. Its irrelevant who you were saying it to.
> 
> I am not attacking you, but perhaps I hit a nerve if you feel that way?
> 
> I am simply rather astounded at the language you used as a moderator.



Nick is a very immoderate moderator, it is part of his charm.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 29, 2015)

You're thinking of the 1950s Word Police, procreative. I'm just a moderator - and a pretty fucking articulate one.

This is a discussion forum, not dinner with the Pope; we aren't here to censor words you don't like, we keep people from doing things like getting at each other's throats. And when livelihoods are at stake - as they are to a degree when companies announce products - things can heat up.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

I think you're overstating your intervention, Nick. We don't need to "dine with the Pope" to be courteous one with another. A well articulated and respectful response goes a long way in keeping things from boiling over. And please, if you feel the urge to explode at me in your otherwise witty way here, take a step back (like everyone else)?

Respectfully,

Andre


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 29, 2015)

In point of fact, Nick did not call anyone _here_ a wanker, he called the guy who did that video one.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> In point of fact, Nick did not call anyone _here_ a wanker, he called the guy who did that video one.



Indeed, that was very clear...


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 29, 2015)

creativeforge said:


> Indeed, that was very clear...



So unless someone here is married to that guy, IMHO, no harm, no foul.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 29, 2015)

Well, I never trust men in masks regardless of who wrote the soundtrack.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 29, 2015)

rayinstirling said:


> Well, I never trust men in masks regardless of who wrote the soundtrack.


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## synthpunk (Sep 29, 2015)

Poll on Commercial Forum is up. Please vote. Thank you.

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/making-the-commecial-forum-for-developer-posts-only.48825/


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## chimuelo (Sep 29, 2015)

I voted.
Always thought the commercial thread was great.
Saved me from having to stare at the header ads for an hour waiting for my favorites to show up.


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## atw (Sep 29, 2015)

You post it in Commercial Announcement forum only?
Would be fair to post it in SampleTalk too with a link to it


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

It would basically be a "read-only" forum, for announcements, not conversations. The rest of the forum provides ample room for that I believe. This will allow developers to share their news more normally I think, in the form of announcements - from them, to us. They just want to announce something, we will be listening. No need to have dozens of rabbit trails after that...


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## SomeGuy (Sep 29, 2015)

The rub is when a new product is released, of course you are going to compare it to previous products. In fact, most developers claim in their press releases that "this is the best X ever made" or "X is a game changer" which prompts some to not just take their hype at face value, but dig deeper, ask for opinions by users, and see if it indeed lives up to the hype - as unfortunately there is no "money back guarantee" for most sample libraries. 

So the question is are we allowed to do this sort of detective work in a commercial thread, or must we resort to seeing a bunch of "x vs y vs z" threads in sample talk? I can see the validity of both. On the one hand the developer is paying to announce their product that they put much hard work and love into producing and it could be very disappointing to have it quickly turn into a thread promoting a competitors product. Yet at the same time, I have been burned in the past buying libraries based on demos and never being able to get CLOSE to the sound that was produced with the demos, or that the product was buggy and had problems, etc. and would have been grateful to have gotten this information from other users before purchase. I dont know who wins in this situation, but once the line is crosses where paid advertisers can make false claims which cannot be refuted, the user has lost.

Note I am not talking specifics - just some general philosophy on the bigger issue this thread has brought up.


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## SomeGuy (Sep 29, 2015)

creativeforge said:


> It would basically be a "read-only" forum, for announcements, not conversations. The rest of the forum provides ample room for that I believe. This will allow developers to share their news more normally I think, in the form of announcements - from them, to us. They just want to announce something, we will be listening. No need to have dozens of rabbit trails after that...



I personally feel this does not work, as I for one would like to ask specific questions about a newly released or announced product and get feedback from the developer. Plus this is good for the developer, as if they answer the question in a public forum they are less likely to get multiples of the same questions through private support emails, etc. Plus developers have openly asked for suggestions on how to improve a product in a .1 update, etc all of which are very valuable and should not be deterred.


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## D.Salzenberg (Sep 29, 2015)

SomeGuy said:


> The rub is when a new product is released, of course you are going to compare it to previous products. In fact, most developers claim in their press releases that "this is the best X ever made" or "X is a game changer" which prompts some to not just take their hype at face value, but dig deeper, ask for opinions by users, and see if it indeed lives up to the hype - as unfortunately there is no "money back guarantee" for most sample libraries.
> 
> So the question is are we allowed to do this sort of detective work in a commercial thread, or must we resort to seeing a bunch of "x vs y vs z" threads in sample talk? I can see the validity of both. On the one hand the developer is paying to announce their product that they put much hard work and love into producing and it could be very disappointing to have it quickly turn into a thread promoting a competitors product. Yet at the same time, I have been burned in the past buying libraries based on demos and never being able to get CLOSE to the sound that was produced with the demos, or that the product was buggy and had problems, etc. and would have been grateful to have gotten this information from other users before purchase. I dont know who wins in this situation, but once the line is crosses where paid advertisers can make false claims which cannot be refuted, the user has lost.
> 
> Note I am not talking specifics - just some general philosophy on the bigger issue this thread has brought up.


This brings up things I'm hearing about the long overdue new Consumer Rights Act which becomes law in the UK in October this year, and for the first time ever will include digital products including downloadable products and they will have to 'perform fully and correctly as described by the manufacturer in their marketing and advertising material' and be 'fit for purpose' in just the same way as physical products. This will forever bring an end to the 'not tangible goods' loophole that has previously been used as a get out clause by sellers of digital and downloadable products.
We can only hope that other countries follow suit. This is only the first step in legislation finally catching up with technology to protect consumers and impose fairness in relation to these products.
Sorry to go off on a side issue. I may start a new thread about this.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

SomeGuy said:


> The rub is when a new product is released, of course you are going to compare it to previous products. In fact, most developers claim in their press releases that "this is the best X ever made" or "X is a game changer" which prompts some to not just take their hype at face value, but dig deeper, ask for opinions by users, and see if it indeed lives up to the hype - as unfortunately there is no "money back guarantee" for most sample libraries.
> 
> So the question is are we allowed to do this sort of detective work in a commercial thread, or must we resort to seeing a bunch of "x vs y vs z" threads in sample talk? I can see the validity of both. On the one hand the developer is paying to announce their product that they put much hard work and love into producing and it could be very disappointing to have it quickly turn into a thread promoting a competitors product. Yet at the same time, I have been burned in the past buying libraries based on demos and never being able to get CLOSE to the sound that was produced with the demos, or that the product was buggy and had problems, etc. and would have been grateful to have gotten this information from other users before purchase. I dont know who wins in this situation, but once the line is crosses where paid advertisers can make false claims which cannot be refuted, the user has lost.
> 
> Note I am not talking specifics - just some general philosophy on the bigger issue this thread has brought up.



As this has been a source of tensions and misunderstanding for quite a while, I think it's good to address it in a way that allows all positions to find something positive for their needs. After research, I found other forums also doing it this way. Making room for developers to simple make product related announcements is a separate format than one having members starting a thread to discuss openly the products. It's just a matter of not mixing or confusing purposes.

Your ability to have frank and open conversations about the products still remains (that's what VIC is also known for), but it will be done in a more productive manner.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> This brings up things I'm hearing about the long overdue new Consumer Rights Act which becomes law in the UK in October this year, and for the first time ever will include digital products including downloadable products and they will have to 'perform fully and correctly as described by the manufacturer in their marketing and advertising material' and be 'fit for purpose' in just the same way as physical products. This will forever bring an end to the 'not tangible goods' loophole that has previously been used as a get out clause by sellers of digital and downloadable products.
> We can only hope that other countries follow suit. This is only the first step in legislation finally catching up with technology to protect consumers and impose fairness in relation to these products.
> Sorry to go off on a side issue. I may start a new thread about this.



Very interesting historical move for sure. A good thread to start!


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

creativeforge said:


> Yet at the same time, I have been burned in the past buying libraries based on demos and never being able to get CLOSE to the sound that was produced with the demos, or that the product was buggy and had problems, etc. and would have been grateful to have gotten this information from other users before purchase. I dont know who wins in this situation, but once the line is crosses where paid advertisers can make false claims which cannot be refuted, the user has lost.



Your experience is not unique, many of us have found certain purchases we made didn't deliver what we expected. And VIC has tons of experienced users who are happy to share their experience, feedback, reviews, tips in order for us to get the most out of the products we buy.

In this regard, however, the Commercial Announcement forum has become just like any other thread where the banter gets so animated that the primary purpose gets lost and I understand also how it can be frustrating for developers who just need a place where they can make announcements without being taken to task about their product, marketing strategies, slogans, bugs, etc. I think it's only fair. Let's see how this works?


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## procreative (Sep 30, 2015)

Thing to remember though it cuts both ways. On the one hand yes commercial announcements often get sidetracked. But it keeps the developers announcement at the top of the pile. So that in the end benefits them.

I have seen many posts by developers that seem to offer very little and seem engineered just to keep their announcement at the top. Such as "only two weeks left on our offer" then "only one week left" etc.

If you are going to lock Commercial Announcements, then why bother at all? Just have banner adverts and be done with it. Or limit them to just one post with product release details?


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## procreative (Sep 30, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You're thinking of the 1950s Word Police, procreative. I'm just a moderator - and a pretty fucking articulate one.
> 
> This is a discussion forum, not dinner with the Pope; we aren't here to censor words you don't like, we keep people from doing things like getting at each others' throats. And when livelihoods are at stake - as they are to a degree when companies announce products - things can heat up.



You say you keep people from getting at each other's throats, but calling someone a wanker is not a good start.

I could not care less about industrial language, I am capable like anyone of using it.

Its one thing disagreeing with his video and maybe he did have a vested interest (or not) but some of the points are valid as the product was promoted as if it was completely new recordings of FX laden instruments and not instruments with plugins added in the sample player.

I seem to remember Daniel James dismissing Hollywood Strings because his computer choked when using it so he did not rate it (he did a comparison video on youtube with a couple of other libraries). Would you call him a wanker? Probably not because aside from the fact he advertises here, we all know he contributes a lot to the community.

Do you know this other guy personally? If not then how do you know he is a wanker? He might be also very knowledgable and respected.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2015)

Having been upbraided recently by a mod for my potty mouth (who, subsequently received my gentle response) this is all pretty amusing. I love it when Nick doubles down! (really, I do!)

I voted for locking Commercial threads, but I have to admit that this discussion has me thinking about it more deeply.

IF the threads are to remain open and the present restrictions on discussion are to remain, I believe careful and consistent moderation will be key, and thorough clarity regarding escalation of response past warnings is also critical for fairness and peace in the valley.


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## synthpunk (Sep 30, 2015)

Nice to see you have let it go like you said. 



NYC Composer said:


> Having been upbraided recently by a mod for my potty mouth (who, subsequently received my gentle response) this is all pretty amusing. I love it when Nick doubles down! (really, I do!)


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## Baron Greuner (Sep 30, 2015)

Nick's been caught wanking again has he?

No worries. This kind of thing is quite prevalent in older people. Work around it I say.

Baron Greuner


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2015)

I did let it go. I was speaking referentially, and as Mr. Batzdorf hasn't publicly received the words of admonition from you that you so cheerfully shared with me, I guess you're sucking up to your fellow mods, eh? Which do you prefer, "fucking articulate", "wanker" or "mofo"?

"Mofo" was, btw, said affectionately. I been dancing with these dudes for a while now- who the hell are you? In a new guise, I assume?

I'm game. You wanna play, volley to you!


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I did let it go. I was speaking referentially, and as Mr. Batzdorf hasn't publicly received the words of admonition from you that you so cheerfully shared with me, I guess you're sucking up to your fellow mods, eh? Which do you prefer, "fucking articulate", "wanker" or "mofo"?
> 
> "Mofo" was, btw, said affectionately. I been dancing with these dudes for a while now- who the hell are you? In a new guise, I assume?
> 
> I'm game. You wanna play, volley to you!



Orrrrr! Instead of dealing with our little spat, maybe you could address the actual opinion expressed in my post- you know, like substance as opposed to style. Jeez Louise.


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## synthpunk (Sep 30, 2015)

Quite a little temper you have there. Good luck with that. I'm a man, how about you nyccomposer?

I'm letting go now, I swear 

Hoorah



NYC Composer said:


> I did let it go. I was speaking referentially, and as Mr. Batzdorf hasn't publicly received the words of admonition from you that you so cheerfully shared with me, I guess you're sucking up to your fellow mods, eh? Which do you prefer, "fucking articulate", "wanker" or "mofo"?
> 
> "Mofo" was, btw, said affectionately. I been dancing with these dudes for a while now- who the hell are you? In a new guise, I assume?
> 
> I'm game. You wanna play, volley to you!


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2015)

All bones, no meat. Pity.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2015)

Holy cannolli- vanished posts!


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## synthpunk (Sep 30, 2015)

Ok , Larry and I are friends now and I am a jr. mofo!, time to move on to the issue, which is not gotten any easier tbh.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2015)

Never mind. Ok, AE and I have kissed and made up, so y'all can go back to discussing actual stuff  Ain't we got fun!

(A good dust up here and there is good for the blood-especially when you're well over 100 years old.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 30, 2015)

Wanking is sex with someone I love. Don't knock it until you've tried it.


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 30, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Moderator pow-wow ... what, where, did I miss something?
> 
> Ah I see, _user discouragement_. The birth of a new urban legend. We were there, ha.



Hannes and NY Composer, I respect you both, but this is no urban legend or Mike making up stories. Read the page for yourself:
https://xenforo.com/help/discouraging-banning/

I don't mind that it was used, and I'm glad that people are discussing what they would like to see happen with CA. But don't whiz on my head and tell me it's raining. It's fine that this happens but let's strive to be truthful and check our facts before accusing people of making stuff up.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 30, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Never mind. Ok, AE and I have kissed and made up, so y'all can go back to discussing actual stuff  Ain't we got fun!
> 
> (A good dust up here and there is good for the blood-especially when you're well over 100 years old.)




Larry, I can honestly say that you do not look a day over 92.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 30, 2015)

Kurt, it's raining and nobody pissed on your head.


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 30, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Kurt, it's raining and nobody pissed on your head.



Nick, apologies is you thought the analogy was out of line, but when your connection is slowed to a waiting game, and you get errors loading every other page, and white pages come up for 4 days straight (never happened before or since) then disappear, it smells a bit like urine. But then again, if you haven't experienced it personally (as a moderator, why would you) and no one is communicated to you what really happened, then I can understand your position. For the record- no one lied about this, it's just never been confirmed OR denied. Fredrick never said if a switch was flipped or not (or a box checked, or whatever), he just mentioned he had problems getting on the server over the weekend and perhaps that was my problem. Thanks to Fredrick for chiming in. If I hadn't spent the weekend testing my internet connection with other accounts and logging out (which all ran perfectly smooth) then perhaps I could agree with him.

But I'll step out on this. I really didn't want to start anything except to ask what is happening and to find how others felt- I got my answer to both, believe what you will. I will say this is the first time I've ever read someone claiming use of the "Wanker" toward someone was a good thing (So you were saying the video poster is having sex with someone he loves- how beautiful!).  Cheers.


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## synthpunk (Sep 30, 2015)

Are we taking all are pills this week Kurt ?



kurtvanzo said:


> Hannes and NY Composer, I respect you both, but this is no urban legend or Mike making up stories. Read the page for yourself:
> https://xenforo.com/help/discouraging-banning/
> 
> I don't mind that it was used, and I'm glad that people are discussing what they would like to see happen with CA. But don't whiz on my head and tell me it's raining. It's fine that this happens but let's strive to be truthful and check our facts before accusing people of making stuff up.


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 30, 2015)

Again, apologies to anyone taking this harshly, I'm not intending to be so, I just couldn't think of another analogy that is more civil and speaks to this. But I'm fine, thanks Aesthete.


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## Vastman (Sep 30, 2015)

kurtvanzo said:


> Again, apologies to anyone taking this harshly, I'm not intending to be so, I just couldn't think of another analogy that is more civil and speaks to this. But I'm fine, thanks Aesthete.


Maybe redo the title of your post, Kurt... it is kinda yucky... and as this thread has evolved, maybe flowed from a lack of info and confusion, with a sprinkle of ego and human proclivities to go insane at times... I do all of those things... but what's important is that we integrate these experiences and make it better...

Zoro and the Picard would agree, me thinks...


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## Hannes_F (Sep 30, 2015)

kurtvanzo said:


> Hannes and NY Composer, I respect you both, but this is no urban legend or Mike making up stories. Read the page for yourself:
> https://xenforo.com/help/discouraging-banning/
> 
> I don't mind that it was used, and I'm glad that people are discussing what they would like to see happen with CA. But don't whiz on my head and tell me it's raining. It's fine that this happens but let's strive to be truthful and check our facts before accusing people of making stuff up.



kurtvanzo, my remark was just me goofing around. I did not know until now that this feature even existed, thanks for letting me know.

Actually there was a time before summer holidays when I was sitting here and deleting like 100 posts per minute because of spam, and that a whole night long. I then suggested that we need a sandbox or something but it was said then we couldn't easily; good to know that we can have this if needed.

Weird situation now, isn't it.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Larry, I can honestly say that you do not look a day over 92.



You're holding up rather well for a 99 year old yourownself!


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2015)

Kurt, I wasn't saying it didn't happen or it didn't exist- I was totally just screwing around.


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## Diffusor (Oct 1, 2015)

Bunford said:


> I never understood why they aren't locked anyway. If developers don't want to hear the 'bad' and only want plaudits, then they either need to have a bit of a reality check (all developers) as that ain't ever gonna happen. There will always be people unhappy with developers for one reason or another. If you are going to block the negative comments, then that is no less than treating unhappy paying customers as second rate unimportant customers, which seems out of order to me as they have ultimately invested in and purchased items from that developer at the same price as the happy customers. In doing so, they should be fully entitled to express their opinions, even if that is negative or offer comparator libraries as better alternatives, even on paid commercial threads. If developers do not want this and only want the 'good', then they should lock the commercial threads as that is never going to happen and what is currently happening appears to be filtering out the 'bad' and portraying a misleading perception of their company as one that can do no wrong due to all the 'good' comments to potential future buyers.
> 
> If anything, to me, developers should be listening MORE to unhappy customers and trying to plug them holes to convert as many of them as possible to happy customers and get as much as they can onboard. Surely that is just good business sense?!
> 
> Anyway, just my tuppence worth!



It doesn't surprise me this is Spitfire. In the past they have kind of whigged out at any criticism or if things didn't go their way. At one point I believe they even boycotted the forum for awhile over similar type stuff.


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