# Looking for some orchestra recommendations - I've done research and feel paralyzed by analysis!



## barcslay (Jul 9, 2021)

Hi all! I have done an exhaustive amount of research, and I really didn't want to be "that guy"...but I need some advice on an orchestra VST - especially since you can't really demo anything. I've already read through dozens and dozens of posts here, have watched Guy Michelmore and other youtube reviewers, and feel even more lost. I'm mainly a guitar player, but have lots of theory and want to be able to branch into orchestral sounds. Like some posts I've seen on here, I don't quite want an old symphony sound, but not really a Zimmer sound either. Having a timbre close to the classic John Williams stuff is best, and that's the style I most similarly hear and what comes out when I write.

So far I've looked into BBC Core, Abbey Road 1, Nucleus, The Orchestra 2, and plenty of others. My budget is $200-$400 ish, preferably less expensive if I can get away with it. My main concerns are that I like the BBC and have Discover, but I really would like to work mostly with ENSEMBLES with the option of having a solo instrument here and there. The BBC situation is overwhelming because I see that it's not a "high string/low string" etc. situation. It's all single instruments and I want to be able to write and "sketch" quickly and freely but still have it sound good. This is where I looked to Abbey Road 1, which was almost perfect, but it's lacking articulations - especially legato.

TL;DR
Please advise:
Semi professional music, but playing around with orchestra sounds as a hobby
Computer specs - iMac 32 gigs of ram, i7, use Logic for my projects
What I'd like? Ensembles with decent articulations and a big John Williams sound for about $400. Single instruments are NOT totally necessary, and unless BBC Core has some type of ensemble situation, it seems overwhelming

Seriously though, you guys are awesome and I thank you for any help you can give me!


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## Marsen (Jul 9, 2021)

I'm sorry to say, but you won't get a "big John Williams sound" with ensemble libraries alone.
You're best bet in the given price range seems to be bbc core.


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## Laurin Lenschow (Jul 9, 2021)

The only comprehensive full orchestral library within your price range that includes both ensemble patches and soloists is The Orchestra 2 (I think), but I'm not sure if it has the sound you are after - it sounds rather raw and unpolished.


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## JohnG (Jul 9, 2021)

I'd lean toward Spitfire as well, probably the BBC orchestra given your having mentioned John Williams. Of course, there are many versions of John Williams, but anyway...

If you're baffled, take time off and have another listen. The main investment one makes in any orchestral library is the time to learn it, not the money. Consequently it's best to take your time and choose based on the sound that you, personally, prefer. 

I would be quite leery of others' recommendations.


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## barcslay (Jul 9, 2021)

Laurin Lenschow said:


> The only comprehensive full orchestral library within your price range that includes both ensemble patches and soloists is The Orchestra 2 (I think), but I'm not sure if it has the sound you are after - it sounds rather raw and unpolished.


If there are any that also fit that don’t include soloists that’s fine too! I edited my original post - I meant to say soloists are NOT totally necessary! But thank you just the same!


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## mikrokosmiko (Jul 9, 2021)

It’s only strings, but Intimate strings by Spitfire cost only 29€ and everyone says it’s awesome. Maybe you can try them and see if the ensemble approach is fine for you


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## barcslay (Jul 9, 2021)

mikrokosmiko said:


> It’s only strings, but Intimate strings by Spitfire cost only 29€ and everyone says it’s awesome. Maybe you can try them and see if the ensemble approach is fine for you


That’s was gonna be one of my other follow up questions. I know spitfire has a bunch of those $29 ensemble kits. I could probably piece together something for like $90-$120.

I’m willing to wait for sales, too, if that means I can get a better product.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 9, 2021)

At this point, hold off on purchases until Black Friday to maximize your budget. If you MUST have something right now, try out BBCSO Discover (free if you fill out a survey) or Composer Cloud for $30 a month.


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## barcslay (Jul 9, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> At this point, hold off on purchases until Black Friday to maximize your budget. If you MUST have something right now, try out BBCSO Discover (free if you fill out a survey) or Composer Cloud for $30 a month.


I have and like discover a lot, I just think I might get overwhelmed with having to program every instrument section when upgrading to core which is why I was looking at Abbey Road etc. 

And I have no issues waiting for sales, I just kinda want to be ready so I’m not scrambling to get information last minute, you know?


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## Fidelity (Jul 9, 2021)

As much as I love "The Orchestra" (I don't have TOC2 yet), I wouldn't recommend it as a starting point to the OP given that he mentioned he's looking for something with multiple articulations - though I really do think it's fantastic.

But why not decide for yourself? Best Service (a retailer/publisher afaik) has something called "try-sound" where you can demo plugins with some relatively massive latency inside your daw or anything that can host VSTi - if you have some time, I'd demo everything they have there and see what you like.

They have TOC2, VSL SE (which I think is great if you buy VI pro for the poly legato), Chris Hein stuff and more. It's kind of bad for your wallet, though...


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## Trash Panda (Jul 9, 2021)

barcslay said:


> I have and like discover a lot, I just think I might get overwhelmed with having to program every instrument section when upgrading to core which is why I was looking at Abbey Road etc.
> 
> And I have no issues waiting for sales, I just kinda want to be ready so I’m not scrambling to get information last minute, you know?


In your OP, you mentioned looking for a John Williams type sound. Abbey Road 1 is that sound straight out of the box.

If you’re trying to do John Williams STYLE writing, you’ll struggle using only AROOF because he oftentimes will have each member of the same instrument section doing something different. You might be able to pull it off with BBCSO but you’ll have to finagle it a LOT. Your best bet for that style would be something agile that has both sections and soloists, but those will be the top end of your budget for a single section in many cases.

You could potentially get some JW type sound out of Nucleus with the classic mix, and it does offer ensembles along with sections, but the soloists are a lot more limited than those in BBCSO and you’ll have to get your hands dirty mixing to get the tone you’re aiming for.

In my Star Wars mock-up in the members compositions forum here, I had to run every channel through a Neve style console plugin with the input drive driven pretty hard (+10 dB) and crank some of the upper mids in its EQ +6-9 dB to mimic that Episode 4 title theme sound. That being said, I found it easier to pull off in Nucleus than BBCSO, which I felt was fighting me every step of the way. Others have a better experience with it though.

You might want to look into East West Composer Cloud for Hollywood Orchestra, as it will get you that classic Hollywood sound out of the box and is flexible, if a bit confusing until you read the manual and play with the different patches to understand how it works. It can achieve some amazing results though. Eventually they’ll bring the price down again and you can scoop it up and cancel the subscription at that point. You’ll also get access to all their other libraries while subbed. Oh yeah, you can use the new Orchestrator to have ensemble like control too in addition to having sections and soloists. 






Star Wars Main Theme - dueling mockups V1: Nucleus vs BBCSO Core


Updated for the new purpose of this thread - practicing my mock up chops by butchering one of JW's most iconic themes. First up was Nucleus. I messed up the mixing on the original version REALLY badly and like it much better after revisiting and applying the MIDI tweaks I learned from putting...




vi-control.net


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## bill5 (Jul 9, 2021)

Laurin Lenschow said:


> The only comprehensive full orchestral library within your price range that includes both ensemble patches and soloists is The Orchestra 2 (I think)


Think again!  Amadeus has a full range of ensembles AND solos. I know some here sneer at it, but IMO it's misguided...I don't have it (yet) but from what I have heard it sounds very good. Also an easy-looking UI so not a lot of tinkering needed. Seems to me it totally fits your needs; IMO well worth consideration at least for a mere $149.


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## el-bo (Jul 9, 2021)

barcslay said:


> My main concerns are that I like the BBC and have Discover, but I really would like to work mostly with ENSEMBLES with the option of having a solo instrument here and there. The BBC situation is overwhelming because I see that it's not a "high string/low string" etc. situation. It's all single instruments and I want to be able to write and "sketch" quickly and freely but still have it sound good.


The recommendations for full 'broken-out' orchestras seem to miss the most pertinent points.


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## PaulieDC (Jul 9, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> At this point, hold off on purchases until Black Friday to maximize your budget. If you MUST have something right now, try out BBCSO Discover (free if you fill out a survey) or Composer Cloud for $30 a month.


Is an i7 iMac going to handle EWHO?

Too bad the original question wasn't asked during the recent Spitfire sale...


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## mybadmemory (Jul 9, 2021)

The most Williams sounding in that price range is probably Abbey Road, but as you say it’s missing legatos. BBCSO can also pull of the Williams sound, but no Ensembles there. I see a few ways forward.

1. You either start with BBCSO, make your own Ensembles with track stacks (very CPU intensive though), and add abbey road later.

2. You start with abbey road, and add BBCSO later. Those two together are probably what you ultimately want.

Other libraries that can pull of the williams sound are the Cinesamples stuff and the cinematic studio series. Both of which are much more expensive for the full orchestra. So none of those might be possible now.

Nucleus I’d say is probably too modern / hybrid sounding, even though it fits your other requirements.

Cinesymphony Lite is actually within your budget and quite Williams sounding, though its ONLY Ensambles. No sections and no soloists. Very sketch-friendly though!

Berlin Inspire also fits on paper, it’s Ensambles based and has some solo instruments. I wouldn’t call it as Williams sounding as abbey or cinesamples, but it could potentially fit what you want.


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## Double Helix (Jul 9, 2021)

Our forum colleague @Cory Pelizzari has a YouTube video that demonstrates what Amadeus Symphony Orchestra is capable of:





EDIT -- Here is the link to Sonic Scores, the developer: https://sonicscores.com/amadeus/

ANOTHER EDIT -- To be clear, I own Amadeus Symphony Orchestra, but I have not encountered any out of tune notes (as I've read in some thread somewhere). I probably have not played every note of every instrument; therefore, if someone who hears anomalies can advise, I'd sure like to check 'em out. Thanks


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## cygnusdei (Jul 10, 2021)

Here comes "that guy" of the week 
I'm as novice as it gets when it comes to orchestral libs but why do you need ensembles? Isn't it trivial to add extra channels if you want to do doubling, i.e. create your own ensembles?


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## from_theashes (Jul 10, 2021)

I know it’s quite intimidating in the beginning to write for sections rather than just slamming an ensemble patch… but in the end, you really want to have maximum control about your composition.
So I would recommend Spitfire‘s Intimate Strings and Epic Strings for sketching with ensembles (and getting your feet wet) and jumping on BBCSO Core on the next sale for more detailed writing and that classic John Williams sound.

And voicing (playing each note of a chord on a different instrument) isn’t that hard…. Just check out Christian Henson’s video about orchestral programming:


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## EgM (Jul 10, 2021)

Get EastWest Composer cloud for one month, if you're capable of reading manuals, you'll rock it.


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## el-bo (Jul 10, 2021)

from_theashes said:


> [...]but in the end, _*you really want*_ to have maximum control about your composition.


I know this is a turn of phrase, and that you really aren't literally trying to dictate what the OP wants, but they've set out what they want 

- Not too 'ye olde' symphony; not too bombastic, either (*"Having a timbre close to the classic John Williams stuff is best"*)

- Not really interested in single instruments (*"They are NOT totally necessary"*).

- Wants ensembles, but also seems to favour a "*high string/low string" etc."*, Albion-like approach.

- Feels that SA's Abbey Road One is almost perfect (*"but it's lacking articulations - especially legato."*)

------
=====

i don't know the answer. I'm also not saying that You aren't right that the best idea is to just bite-the-bullet and learn proper, from-scratch, orchestration; nor even that by the end of this thread the OP won't eventually be convinced of that option. Just think that perhaps we can avoid a situation where the OP becomes "That Guy", and this thread becomes one of 'Those threads'.

They know exactly what they want. Does it (or a combination of its) exist?


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## from_theashes (Jul 10, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I know this is a turn of phrase, and that you really aren't literally trying to dictate what the OP wants, but they've set out what they want
> 
> - Not too 'ye olde' symphony; not too bombastic, either (*"Having a timbre close to the classic John Williams stuff is best"*)
> 
> ...


I‘m just saying: I was in the same boat about a year ago. I wanted ensembles and an epic sound (more Zimmer than Williams in my case)… so I thought „Albion One is the ultimate library for me“.
In the end it’s a very good library, and I still use some of that strings patches, mostly Spiccato and Low 8taves Legato, for some „epic“ writing… but I bit the bullet and learned voicing my strings and brass parts and separate my ensemble-sketches into the different sections for more realism and flexibility.

So I would NOT recommend spending 300-400 bucks on an ensemble library (like Abby Road One), and go with the cheaper alternatives (Spitfire originals, Nucleus Lite) to see, if it still matches my expectations after a couple of months. If it does: Abby Road One on Black Friday/Christmas-sale would be the next step.
But maybe, after writing with ensembles, the OP wants more control about the sections: then BBCSO is the way to go.

Actually, while thinking and writing about it… the combination of Nucleus Lite (ensembles) and Areia Lite (sections) would be a great start too…especially on sale.


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## cygnusdei (Jul 10, 2021)

el-bo said:


> They know exactly what they want. Does it (or a combination of its) exist?


The kicker is that it has to be within budget as well. If a potential customer comes in and says I want this, this, this, for not a penny over this $, you'd be a poor salesman to say, "Sorry, you're out of luck. Next!" Of course you'd help the customer reevaluate his needs to match available products.


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## el-bo (Jul 10, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> The kicker is that it has to be within budget as well. If a potential customer comes in and says I want this, this, this, for not a penny over this $, you'd be a poor salesman to say, "Sorry, you're out of luck. Next!" Of course you'd help the customer reevaluate his needs to match available products.


It may very well turn out that the OP will have to compromise on one of their requirements.

Until all options are exhausted, it still seems like the way forward is to find the library to match the intended workflow, rather than the other way around.

That's how it worked when I did sales, anyway


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## cygnusdei (Jul 10, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Think again!  Amadeus has a full range of ensembles AND solos. I know some here sneer at it, but IMO it's misguided...I don't have it (yet) but from what I have heard it sounds very good. Also an easy-looking UI so not a lot of tinkering needed. Seems to me it totally fits your needs; IMO well worth consideration at least for a mere $149.


I'm intrigued as well, it is the same price as GPO5 so perhaps it's the same caliber, with the difference being that GPO5 is a 5 years old whereas Amadeus is a 3-year old product.
A casual search turns up not so favorable user opinion though, for example:





CLOSED - FS: Sonicscores AMADEUS Symphonic Orchestra (Sample Library)


My Sonicscores Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra (Sample Library) is up for sale; asking € 75. Please send me a p.m. if interested.




vi-control.net


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## bill5 (Jul 10, 2021)

Sounds like bad customer service experience by a few people...that doesn't invalidate the product.

Might want to read this review by a former VIer: https://www.macprovideo.com/article/review-2/review-amadeus-symphonic-orchestra

Dismiss it if you like, again just a possibility to consider.


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## cygnusdei (Jul 10, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Sounds like bad customer service experience by a few people...that doesn't invalidate the product.
> 
> Might want to read this review by a former VIer: https://www.macprovideo.com/article/review-2/review-amadeus-symphonic-orchestra
> 
> Dismiss it if you like, again just a possibility to consider.


I saw the heading of that article when searching on Google earlier. On the thread I linked scroll down a bit though, someone mentioned wrong pitches.


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## topijokinen (Jul 10, 2021)

With the new Hollywood Orchestra Opus edition included, Id go with East West Composer Cloud and learn to use the individual ensembles (CC or CCx are sufficient). Its not too difficult and sounds much better than any ensemble since you get the separation between instruments. You also get a ton of other instruments and Spaces II, which is a great reverb.

I also have Albion One, but I mostly use it on sketching or layering (in which it is great), but never on its own since the sound becomes quite synthy (at least on strings) since theres not much separation in ensemble patches.


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## Chris Harper (Jul 10, 2021)

I would recommend starting with Nucleus Lite. For $99 you get ensemble patches with classic and modern mixes. You don’t get the full range of section and solo patches or legatos, but if you like the sound you can easily upgrade to full. I have quite a few choices available to me and I use Nucleus a lot. Having adjustable pre-delays that match across articulations seems like a small detail, but it saves a lot of time. With some practice at EQing orchestral instruments and a decent reverb, you can get a lot of different sounds.

I’ve never used any EastWest products, but I would also feel comfortable recommending Composer Cloud based on everything I’ve heard. If I was starting over again, I would probably go that direction instead of chasing libraries. It would have been a lot cheaper, although not nearly as fun! I hate to think of how many months (ok… years… um… ok ok… decades) of subscription fees I could have paid with what I have spent buying libraries. LOL


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## barcslay (Jul 11, 2021)

Chris Harper said:


> I would recommend starting with Nucleus Lite. For $99 you get ensemble patches with classic and modern mixes. You don’t get the full range of section and solo patches or legatos, but if you like the sound you can easily upgrade to full. I have quite a few choices available to me and I use Nucleus a lot. Having adjustable pre-delays that match across articulations seems like a small detail, but it saves a lot of time. With some practice at EQing orchestral instruments and a decent reverb, you can get a lot of different sounds.
> 
> I’ve never used any EastWest products, but I would also feel comfortable recommending Composer Cloud based on everything I’ve heard. If I was starting over again, I would probably go that direction instead of chasing libraries. It would have been a lot cheaper, although not nearly as fun! I hate to think of how many months (ok… years… um… ok ok… decades) of subscription fees I could have paid with what I have spent buying libraries. LOL


Nucleus is feeling like it ticks more of my boxes with versatility, despite maybe not sounding as good as east west - although truthfully I have no idea since every video on YouTube makes every library sound good lol. What other libraries do you have that nucleus beats?


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## pixelcrave (Jul 11, 2021)

barcslay said:


> So far I've looked into BBC Core, Abbey Road 1, Nucleus, The Orchestra 2, and plenty of others. My budget is $200-$400 ish, preferably less expensive if I can get away with it. My main concerns are that I like the BBC and have Discover, but I really would like to work mostly with ENSEMBLES with the option of having a solo instrument here and there. The BBC situation is overwhelming because I see that it's not a "high string/low string" etc. situation. It's all single instruments and I want to be able to write and "sketch" quickly and freely but still have it sound good.



If you like the sound of BBC but would rather work with ensembles, if you don't know already, you can technically do so with Logic Pro X by using Logic group feature. And if you download the BBC template, it's already set up that way (so when you select a group for "String Long" it will play all the strings instruments in long articulation). See Christian's video here starting at 7:04




Cheers


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## Tice (Jul 11, 2021)

Williams is fairly traditional with his orchestra. But much of the Williams sound doesn't come from deviating from the classic orchestra at all. It comes from how he uses the classic orchestral template. And it matters a lot what room it's in, and how it's mixed and mastered. Williams depends on great musicians for much of his writing. He'll often write parts that take great skill to perform and are hard to emulate with samples, especially for the strings, which is always the case. 
All told, I'd go for something like VSL, with a TON of articulations that are put into a matrix system that is very efficient to make TONS of switches. You'll need that if you want to get close to the individual instrument performances that his style relies on. You'll be micro-managing samples a LOT.
For the older Star Wars IV sound, keep in mind that it was done with a different mixing and mastering philosophy than we have today. Put SW IV and SW IX side by side and you have a very different orchestra sound. But I don't think the instrumentation is that different. It all uses the London Symphony Orchestra.
So depending on what part of Williams' oeuvre you're going for, study the mixing and mastering they used, and the room it was in. (Anvil Denham for SW IV)


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## mikrokosmiko (Jul 11, 2021)

Tice said:


> Williams is fairly traditional with his orchestra. But much of the Williams sound doesn't come from deviating from the classic orchestra at all. It comes from how he uses the classic orchestral template. And it matters a lot what room it's in, and how it's mixed and mastered. Williams depends on great musicians for much of his writing. He'll often write parts that take great skill to perform and are hard to emulate with samples, especially for the strings, which is always the case.
> All told, I'd go for something like VSL, with a TON of articulations that are put into a matrix system that is very efficient to make TONS of switches. You'll need that if you want to get close to the individual instrument performances that his style relies on. You'll be micro-managing samples a LOT.
> For the older Star Wars IV sound, keep in mind that it was done with a different mixing and mastering philosophy than we have today. Put SW IV and SW IX side by side and you have a very different orchestra sound. But I don't think the instrumentation is that different. It all uses the London Symphony Orchestra.
> So depending on what part of Williams' oeuvre you're going for, study the mixing and mastering they used, and the room it was in. (Anvil Denham for SW IV)


But has VSL ensemble libraries? I have a few instruments by them and I find they are not the easiest to work with


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## Tice (Jul 11, 2021)

mikrokosmiko said:


> But has VSL ensemble libraries? I have a few instruments by them and I find they are not the easiest to work with


You mean automatic grouping of instruments into a single set of samples? That's not a great thing for emulating Williams. Sure, it's more work to do all the grouping yourself, but you'll need that level of control. Or do you mean multiples of the same instrument?


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## barcslay (Jul 11, 2021)

Fidelity said:


> As much as I love "The Orchestra" (I don't have TOC2 yet), I wouldn't recommend it as a starting point to the OP given that he mentioned he's looking for something with multiple articulations - though I really do think it's fantastic.
> 
> But why not decide for yourself? Best Service (a retailer/publisher afaik) has something called "try-sound" where you can demo plugins with some relatively massive latency inside your daw or anything that can host VSTi - if you have some time, I'd demo everything they have there and see what you like.
> 
> They have TOC2, VSL SE (which I think is great if you buy VI pro for the poly legato), Chris Hein stuff and more. It's kind of bad for your wallet, though...


I feel like I’ve seen YouTube videos of The Orchestra 2 where there’s lots of articulations but I might be wrong?


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## barcslay (Jul 11, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Think again!  Amadeus has a full range of ensembles AND solos. I know some here sneer at it, but IMO it's misguided...I don't have it (yet) but from what I have heard it sounds very good. Also an easy-looking UI so not a lot of tinkering needed. Seems to me it totally fits your needs; IMO well worth consideration at least for a mere $149.


I saw this too but I wasn’t sure about Amadeus since so many posts trash it on here. The amount offered by it looks really good, I guess I’ll need to listen to some more YouTube samples and see if anyone has user experience with it!


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## barcslay (Jul 11, 2021)

Tice said:


> Williams is fairly traditional with his orchestra. But much of the Williams sound doesn't come from deviating from the classic orchestra at all. It comes from how he uses the classic orchestral template. And it matters a lot what room it's in, and how it's mixed and mastered. Williams depends on great musicians for much of his writing. He'll often write parts that take great skill to perform and are hard to emulate with samples, especially for the strings, which is always the case.
> All told, I'd go for something like VSL, with a TON of articulations that are put into a matrix system that is very efficient to make TONS of switches. You'll need that if you want to get close to the individual instrument performances that his style relies on. You'll be micro-managing samples a LOT.
> For the older Star Wars IV sound, keep in mind that it was done with a different mixing and mastering philosophy than we have today. Put SW IV and SW IX side by side and you have a very different orchestra sound. But I don't think the instrumentation is that different. It all uses the London Symphony Orchestra.
> So depending on what part of Williams' oeuvre you're going for, study the mixing and mastering they used, and the room it was in. (Anvil Denham for SW IV)


What VSL product would you recommend? I like the idea of having so many articulations, especially as key switches. I see some that have different tracks as different articulations and splitting the part and that just seems cumbersome.


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## Chris Harper (Jul 12, 2021)

barcslay said:


> Nucleus is feeling like it ticks more of my boxes with versatility, despite maybe not sounding as good as east west - although truthfully I have no idea since every video on YouTube makes every library sound good lol. What other libraries do you have that nucleus beats?


I wouldn’t say Nucleus “beats” the others in terms of being better. They all have a place, of course, and I like each of them for different things. The reasons I reach for Nucleus a lot are because it has a flexible sound that’s a bit towards the modern side but not overly so, it doesn’t have excessive reverb or hall sound baked in so you can easily EQ it and use different reverbs for blending, the samples are really consistent in timing and volume, and it has just the right amount of articulations to cover most basic things. 

I know that if I dial in -125ms sample start then shift the track forward by the same amount, everything will always line up, regardless of which articulation or instrument I’m using. There are quite a few libraries that have inconsistent sample starts between instruments, between different articulations on the same instrument, and even between velocity layers on a single articulation in some cases. To me, there isn’t any point of using keyswitches if the notes don’t go where I put them. You either have to route to different patches for each articulation, or you have up manually move notes around. Since I rarely write a phrase using a single articulation, moving single notes around one by one would quickly become tedious. Of course, many people prefer not to use keyswitches at all, but having 40 channels just for strings on every song would drive me nuts. Different strokes. 

I have VSL Special Editions 1+/2+, Symphobias 1-3, BBCSO Core, Cinebrass Core/Pro, Trailer Strings/Brass, 8Dio Anthology and Century Brass, and a few others that I haven’t delved deeply enough into to give an opinion on.

Nucleus is kind of my default complete orchestra. I use it as a workhorse. I write pretty fast, and I value its consistency. Unless I have something else specific in mind, I will usually use an lot of it for large orchestra pieces. If I know I’m looking for something specific like intimate chamber sizes or detailed articulations, I’ll start with something else. Later on I’ll end up replacing or layering parts where I want to in order to maximize time efficiency, but I have written quite a few pieces using only Nucleus. It’s not the best at any one thing, but it’s really good all around for the price.

I love the sound of BBCSO, but I find it to be a bit finicky with consistency, and the room sound (which albeit is lovely) makes it more difficult to blend with other libraries. No matter which way you go, I would at least get Discovery, even if you plan on getting something with only ensemble patches.

Speaking of consistency and ease of use, I do love VSL. Synchron player is great. Another great alternative to look into would be getting a couple of modules from Big Bang Orchestra or their other product lines to cover what you need. I’m not sure which modules you would need just to cover ensemble patches. Andromeda has full orchestra patches, but I don’t believe they are broken out into different ensemble families (I could be wrong). The nice thing about the VSL approach is that you can add exactly what you need whenever you need it. And, you can demo them before you buy them. I have the special editions, but I wouldn’t go that direction if I could start over. I would go with modules from the flagship product lines. You get less scaled-down products and better paths for upgrading later.

There are so many great options really. I just think the Lite version of Nucleus can go really far for its price point for someone who prefers ensemble packages to get started.


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## Tice (Jul 12, 2021)

barcslay said:


> What VSL product would you recommend? I like the idea of having so many articulations, especially as key switches. I see some that have different tracks as different articulations and splitting the part and that just seems cumbersome.


Well, since budget is a factor, a great way to get started is the special editions. I have the ones from before they 'Synchronized' everything, so I'm working with their older articulation matrix, which I quite like. But from what I can tell, you can still do everything with the new interface.
I also never tried their Big Bang Orchestra, which may be the cheapest option, but from what I've seen that also offers less control (?)
Once you have the entire special edition range you'll be able to re-create the entire London Symphony Orchestra setup, which should give you everything you need to orchestrate like Williams. After that you still need to think about the room itself (convolution reverbs) and then mixing and mastering.


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## Chris Harper (Jul 12, 2021)

Tice said:


> Well, since budget is a factor, a great way to get started is the special editions. I have the ones from before they 'Synchronized' everything, so I'm working with their older articulation matrix, which I quite like. But from what I can tell, you can still do everything with the new interface.
> I also never tried their Big Bang Orchestra, which may be the cheapest option, but from what I've seen that also offers less control (?)
> Once you have the entire special edition range you'll be able to re-create the entire London Symphony Orchestra setup, which should give you everything you need to orchestrate like Williams. After that you still need to think about the room itself (convolution reverbs) and then mixing and mastering.


I’m with you in the special editions. I own 1/1+ & 2/2+ also. I do like the new player, but I had no attachment to the old, so it’s all I know. It’s very simple to use. VSL can certainly get pricy. I think it’s probably overkill for what the OP is looking for unless it is on a big sale. Volume 1 by itself is at the top of the price range, and it includes a lot more than just ensemble patches. But Albion and Abbey Road are certainly very pricy too for being solely ensemble libraries.

I haven’t used any EastWest products, but a couple of months of Composer Cloud doesn’t require a lot of up front investment and would help the OP get past the analysis paralysis phase and into writing music, which is ultimately the only way to figure out what they really need. I remember trying to pick my first full library, and it can be a lot of money to spend on what feels like a leap of faith. I also remember being totally overwhelmed. Once I got past that and started using a library to compose, I figured out pretty quickly what I really needed. Going month to month seems like the option that would feel lowest risk to someone who is overwhelmed with the decision.


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## Tice (Jul 12, 2021)

Chris Harper said:


> I’m with you in the special editions. I own 1/1+ & 2/2+ also. I do like the new player, but I had no attachment to the old, so it’s all I know. It’s very simple to use. VSL can certainly get pricy. I think it’s probably overkill for what the OP is looking for unless it is on a big sale. Volume 1 by itself is at the top of the price range, and it includes a lot more than just ensemble patches. But Albion and Abbey Road are certainly very pricy too for being solely ensemble libraries.
> 
> I haven’t used any EastWest products, but a couple of months of Composer Cloud doesn’t require a lot of up front investment and would help the OP get past the analysis paralysis phase and into writing music, which is ultimately the only way to figure out what they really need. I remember trying to pick my first full library, and it can be a lot of money to spend on what feels like a leap of faith. I also remember being totally overwhelmed. Once I got past that and started using a library to compose, I figured out pretty quickly what I really needed. Going month to month seems like the option that would feel lowest risk to someone who is overwhelmed with the decision.


You bring up really good points. In the end, whatever gets you to write music and become better at your craft is where it's at. In that case the free/entry options Spitfire and VSL offer are great to remove the obstacle of money and feeling the choice is too big and important to make. Lowest threshold possible there. Then at least you can get a feel for it and learn what you need from experience.


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## MartinH. (Jul 12, 2021)

barcslay said:


> I've done research and feel paralyzed by analysis!​


Did asking here help?


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## barcslay (Jul 12, 2021)

Chris Harper said:


> I’m with you in the special editions. I own 1/1+ & 2/2+ also. I do like the new player, but I had no attachment to the old, so it’s all I know. It’s very simple to use. VSL can certainly get pricy. I think it’s probably overkill for what the OP is looking for unless it is on a big sale. Volume 1 by itself is at the top of the price range, and it includes a lot more than just ensemble patches. But Albion and Abbey Road are certainly very pricy too for being solely ensemble libraries.
> 
> I haven’t used any EastWest products, but a couple of months of Composer Cloud doesn’t require a lot of up front investment and would help the OP get past the analysis paralysis phase and into writing music, which is ultimately the only way to figure out what they really need. I remember trying to pick my first full library, and it can be a lot of money to spend on what feels like a leap of faith. I also remember being totally overwhelmed. Once I got past that and started using a library to compose, I figured out pretty quickly what I really needed. Going month to month seems like the option that would feel lowest risk to someone who is overwhelmed with the decision.


The special editions do seem great and they are now in consideration. It's also worth noting, I know that the best way to start is "just to start", but having been a musician for a long time I also know that having the right tools are important so you can bring things to life and not feel held back or like you wasted money (GAS is real). I've played a lot with the Garageband/Logic virtual instruments and it just feels like an appropriate time to invest in something that's a little better, but not $1k since I'm not gigging with it the way I do with my guitars. Especially since there's no resale value on most of these libraries, I'd love to buy once/cry once (but keep it in budget) 

I also think part of the reason for the ensembles is that I like playing chords and using leading notes to get to the next chord shape when I'm playing the keys, and the ensembles would allow me to do that and they're most likely set up the way an orchestra would assemble them already, taking some of the complication regarding "how many horns/violins/cellos/etc" are in a section that generally play the same parts in unison. I watched the Spitfire video comparing AR1, Albion 1, and BBC Core, and he was saying that AR1 and Albion 1 suit keyboard players better vs BBC Core being better for hardcore orchestrators since you have to play each instruments part separately.


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## barcslay (Jul 12, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Did asking here help?


It definitely isn't hurting! The problem I was running into is that a lot of reviews and review videos are like an hour long and it was kind of initial thoughts vs somebody who has been using saying "this is my workhorse, and this is what's great about it". Guy Michelmore almost had me sold on AR1, but then once I was reading about the lack of articulations, I nixed it. If we could just demo the dang things we newbies wouldn't have to post the same question so much lol!


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## barcslay (Jul 12, 2021)

from_theashes said:


> I‘m just saying: I was in the same boat about a year ago. I wanted ensembles and an epic sound (more Zimmer than Williams in my case)… so I thought „Albion One is the ultimate library for me“.
> In the end it’s a very good library, and I still use some of that strings patches, mostly Spiccato and Low 8taves Legato, for some „epic“ writing… but I bit the bullet and learned voicing my strings and brass parts and separate my ensemble-sketches into the different sections for more realism and flexibility.
> 
> So I would NOT recommend spending 300-400 bucks on an ensemble library (like Abby Road One), and go with the cheaper alternatives (Spitfire originals, Nucleus Lite) to see, if it still matches my expectations after a couple of months. If it does: Abby Road One on Black Friday/Christmas-sale would be the next step.
> ...


This kind of idea appeals to me too. I think I'm just so new to orchestral writing that some of the verbage gets me a little messed up. I'm watching "10 rules of orchestral programming" as we speak. How often would I realistically need solo instruments vs sections? Maybe in my listening I haven't realized that what I perceive to be a powerful/deep sound is actually a section of trumpets, or a section of violins, etc. Again, I'm still new with this stuff and have a huge appreciation for it, I was just never a "band" kid so I don't understand arrangements as well as you vets!


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## barcslay (Jul 12, 2021)

pixelcrave said:


> If you like the sound of BBC but would rather work with ensembles, if you don't know already, you can technically do so with Logic Pro X by using Logic group feature. And if you download the BBC template, it's already set up that way (so when you select a group for "String Long" it will play all the strings instruments in long articulation). See Christian's video here starting at 7:04
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Will playing like this fry the RAM on my computer? I've read that BBC is kind of intensive.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 12, 2021)

I mean, you CAN demo the entire East West catalog for a month and you’re only out $30 if you don’t jive with it.

As mentioned before, you can use The Orchestrator that comes with Hollywood Orchestra to play via the keyboard.


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## PuerAzaelis (Jul 12, 2021)

barcslay said:


> It definitely isn't hurting! The problem I was running into is that a lot of reviews and review videos are like an hour long and it was kind of initial thoughts vs somebody who has been using saying "this is my workhorse, and this is what's great about it". Guy Michelmore almost had me sold on AR1, but then once I was reading about the lack of articulations, I nixed it. If we could just demo the dang things we newbies wouldn't have to post the same question so much lol!


Well there's always Composer Cloud - for a small monthly amount you can "demo" (i.e. use) any EW library you want.


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## Tice (Jul 12, 2021)

Btw, just for full disclosure: I avoid using the keyboard to write. You can tell when someone is keyboard orchestrating and composing, it leads to doing what your hands know how to do, vs what your head is capable of. And I'd bet you that Williams doesn't compose using a keyboard. You want to sound like him, then free your brain from the limitations of your fingers.


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## Tice (Jul 12, 2021)

Tice said:


> Btw, just for full disclosure: I avoid using the keyboard to write. You can tell when someone is keyboard orchestrating and composing, it leads to doing what your hands know how to do, vs what your head is capable of. And I'd bet you that Williams doesn't compose using a keyboard. You want to sound like him, then free your brain from the limitations of your fingers.


(yeah, he's a good pianist, and can demo his work with that fairly well. But I'd wager that's not where his compositions or ochestrations were 'born')


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## pixelcrave (Jul 12, 2021)

barcslay said:


> Will playing like this fry the RAM on my computer? I've read that BBC is kind of intensive.


Your spec is similar to mine. I have a Macbook with 32GB RAM and i7. Yes, it took a few seconds to load all the 4-5 instruments together (in the case of strings long for example) — BBC tends to load a little longer than my other libraries, but I personally have gotten used to it cause I like the sound a lot (it's still within my threshold). It's your comfort level really, I'm just sharing that you do have the option to play "ensemble" in Logic even when the libraries don't have ones — try it with your Discover just to give it a whirl!


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## bill5 (Jul 20, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> I mean, you CAN demo the entire East West catalog for a month and you’re only out $30 if you don’t jive with it.


Yeah but it takes at least that long just to figure out how to use it and what the hell all those articulations are.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 20, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Yeah but it takes at least that long just to figure out how to use it and what the hell all those articulations are.


Only if you’re a fast learner and not a nitwit like me.


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## bill5 (Jul 20, 2021)

True I'm looking at it from my nitwit perspective...kids these days pick up things quicker no doubt


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