# The Next Generation (?) Strings Thread



## noiseboyuk (Dec 18, 2011)

We need a non-commercial section thread to discuss this!

So 8dio's Adagio Violins are about to unleashed upon the composer's world, like a wall of horsey water outside Rivendell. I do find it supremely ironic that this is described as a passionate, emotional, next generation holy grail of a library and yet doesn''t use phrases - a notion mocked by Troels in these boards only a few months ago, seemingly. Delighted to see the turn around.

I'm particularly curious to see how the scripting and playability turns out. I'll be disappointed and surprised if we end up with an octave and a half of keyswitches - I'm hoping for some intelligent scripting based on key velocity and playing style.

Then there's the issue of needing to blend with other libraries. Until Adagio Everything Else comes along, this will need to integrate with what's already there. From the demo, tonally it sounded closest to Cinematic Strings, whose 2.0 is in the works. And of course LASS 2.0 has its new 8 timbral profiles too, so that may well be a good match. Andrew K said that NI are re-encoding the final tweaks on Monday and it will hopefully be out this coming week - perfect timing if so to evaluate the Stage and Color possibilities to go hand in hand with AV.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*

I'm available to write the "Next Generation" theme.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 18, 2011)

Think it would have been nice if Violins, Violas, Celli and basses were released at the same time. Still cool though.


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## tripit (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*

It looks to be promising for sure, but being the skeptic I am, I won't be convinced this is the Holy Grail until I see and hear more...a lot more. 

I agree, the blending is certainly becoming more of a concern, more so that many of use are now owners and users of several libraries that offer one thing or another, but have to sit well together as a whole. Personally, at this point I have VSL, Ablion, HS and LASS and I use all of them, well not so much VSL nowdays, but certainly the other three, and now I'm faced with another one. 

I think that this might be the real new frontier. How to get all these string libraries to work with each other. Maybe someone will come up with a plug in that that takes one library and makes it match with another... while you get a cup of joe. 

But, that's an issue I am happy to have. To have so many great string options is a blessing in the end.


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## tripit (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*

It looks to be promising for sure, but being the skeptic I am, I won't be convinced this is the Holy Grail until I see and hear more...a lot more. 

I agree, the blending is certainly becoming more of a concern, more so that many of use are now owners and users of several libraries that offer one thing or another, but have to sit well together as a whole. Personally, at this point I have VSL, Ablion, HS and LASS and I use all of them, well not so much VSL nowdays, but certainly the other three, and now I'm faced with another one. 

I think that this might be the real new frontier. How to get all these string libraries to work with each other. Maybe someone will come up with a plug in that that takes one library and makes it match with another... while you get a cup of joe. 

But, that's an issue I am happy to have. To have so many great string options is a blessing in the end.


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## lux (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> I'm available to write the "Next Generation" theme.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*

@ Lux-'zactly. Heh.


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## lux (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*

:mrgreen:


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 18, 2011)

Love it, Lux!

Blending is always an issue, but it's gonna be universal with Adagio Violins - there's no choice. I really like the demo, but I'm with you tripit that I'd need to hear / see a lot more before it has the must-buy status. The 10 legato / round robin legato thing IS really intriguing, so long as it's all playable. Also I wonder if they're tackling v / nv issues. I guess we'll find out more later today / tomorrow. I can only presume the library will be pretty enormous in size, btw.


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## utopia (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*

One thing I'd absolutely hate to do is use one library for slow [Adagio] legato, one for fast legato passages, another for stacc, pizz etc etc. That's why I really hope 8dio will eventually release a full bundle with all common string artics AND price it competitively. If this was to happen, I would strongly consider going this route for sure. I was still waiting for LASS 2.0 to decide between HS or LASS and this new announcement would be very interesting to me if it would offer a more or less complete solution.


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## lux (Dec 18, 2011)

To be honest once I got Lass and Cinematic strings i feel probably we're already at the next generation strings. And i havent had HS yet. Those three libs seem to cover the tone pretty well.

What i miss a bit is polyphonic legato in a single patch and a smarter approach to articulation switching. 

Problem is controllers though. I cant think of a smart approach of articulaton change for strings. Apart of the classic keyswitch. 

Wallander is what i expect most to see a new approach to strings playing.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



utopia @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> One thing I'd absolutely hate to do is use one library for slow [Adagio] legato, one for fast legato passages, another for stacc, pizz etc etc. That's why I really hope 8dio will eventually release a full bundle with all common string artics AND price it competitively. If this was to happen, I would strongly consider going this route for sure. I was still waiting for LASS 2.0 to decide between HS or LASS and this new announcement would be very interesting to me if it would offer a more or less complete solution.



Any complete 8dio solution is surely a veeery long way off. I'd imagine this depth of sampling takes many many months to record and edit. Let's say 6 months for a small company like 8dio - if they go on to do the other sections, that's 2 years away.

Meanwhile I kind of assumed it would have shorts, trills etc, but maybe it is just legatos?


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## jamwerks (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*

o=< I'll join in with my 2 cents here: o=< 

I imagine that VSL hasn't recorded anything new yet. MIR Pro is finally out, and that should give another year of sales to their current libraries. I imagine they will abandon their in-house Silent-Stage as a recording space, and move to a mid-size scoring stage. So nothing new for them probably for a while. And we'll probably see massive sales on their current stuff before anything else is offered.

In general, given costs of musician time, studios, and editing, complete libraries (articulation & size wise) don't seem to exist anymore. We'll probably always have to mix and match different products to cover all the ground that we need.

As for the samples themselves, the time stretching capabilities on the new VIP, has really opened my eyes, and I hope that la other libraries take advantage of this. With short notes, you can leave the attack and decay alone, and just time-stretch the "hold", and get 2 distinct variations of each note (shorter & longer). And this without the costly rerecording. With trills you can vary speeds, go slow to fast, etc. and with portamentos you can vary the speed of the transitions, again without rerecording.

If the new versions of Kontakt and Play, don't let us do the stretching, I hope at least, the libraries with do it for us offering all the variations.

For example, HB 1 Horn stopped has only (short) stacc, sus, and accent sus. That's something I would like to use a lot but the stacc's are too short for any slow stuff. EW could probably get a set of "stacc long" articulations with no rerecording (& also staccatissimo).


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## Daryl (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*

At the moment there is not enough information for me to have any kind of opinion. All I've head is the teaser trailer, and there is nothing new that I hear. So there is a lot to prove.

What makes it "next generation"? To me, that means something new and revolutionary. From the limited amount of information given, it just sounds like more of the same generation to me. However, as I said, there is not enough information available to make an informed opinion, so like everyone else, I'll just have to see what transpires.

D


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



Daryl @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> At the moment there is not enough information for me to have any kind of opinion. All I've head is the teaser trailer, and there is nothing new that I hear. So there is a lot to prove.
> 
> What makes it "next generation"? To me, that means something new and revolutionary. From the limited amount of information given, it just sounds like more of the same generation to me. However, as I said, there is not enough information available to make an informed opinion, so like everyone else, I'll just have to see what transpires.
> 
> D



10 different legato transitions, and RR legato, is next generation.

I agree there's much to prove, and the above doesn't even necessarily make it better, but imho its factually wrong to say "more of the same". I think the current maximum number of different legato transitions is three (four if you include VSL's "legato slow")


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## Hannes_F (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



Daryl @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> All I've head is the teaser trailer, and there is nothing new that I hear.



Daryl, you say this teaser could be done with HS or VSL?



> not enough information available to make an informed opinion



True. Too often I thought a new library would be a revolution finally and after some time owned an expensive door stop.


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## Daryl (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



Hannes_F @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> Daryl @ Sun Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > All I've head is the teaser trailer, and there is nothing new that I hear.
> ...


I don't see why not. With VSL it would be a tad more clunky, because there is no independent vibrato control in either the App Stings or Orchestral Strings, but with layering the Chamber Strings (which does have vibrato control), it would sound good, and possibly better, due to the timing/tuning opportunities with layering.



Hannes_F @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> > not enough information available to make an informed opinion
> 
> 
> 
> True. Too often I thought a new library would be a revolution finally and after some time owned an expensive door stop.


That's the beauty of download libraries; less doorstops to worry about. :wink: 

D


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## rayinstirling (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



Hannes_F @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> Too often I thought a new library would be a revolution finally and after some time owned an expensive door stop.



I'm using the boxes for acoustic treatment in my room :wink:


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## tommalm (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



noiseboyuk @ 18th December said:


> Daryl @ Sun Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > At the moment there is not enough information for me to have any kind of opinion. All I've head is the teaser trailer, and there is nothing new that I hear. So there is a lot to prove.
> ...



Round robin legato. If this works as I think it does, then it's the same principal as VSL's performance trills. You can go back and forth between two notes and trigger a different transition each time. So it's not "new". 
However, I'm expecting Troels to take it a few steps further. Then again, I'm hoping it sounds like shit, because I really had planned to spend less money on samples the coming year... o Oh...who am I kidding...Its gonna sound great, and I'll end up getting them all, desipte the barrage of threats coming from my wife... 0oD

O0oh..by the way, true solo?! Does this mean a fully "deep" sampled line of solo strings also!? o/~


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## utopia (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



noiseboyuk @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> Meanwhile I kind of assumed it would have shorts, trills etc, but maybe it is just legatos?


Not sure myself. Why would they call it Adagio if it would be able to play fast/short stuff just as well? Besides,their teaser shows off exactly this-the emotional slow playing. Which is great as long as they also cover the other aspects needed to write complete string parts. Again, I'd absolutely hate to switch to another string lib every time I need a faster passage or pizz and then struggle with mixing everything to sound natural. 
I do hope that they've planned to make this a complete solution for string writing because from this teaser the sound is really great. 
And we don't quite now when this project has started and how much work has already been done so guessing the possible timeline for future announcements is not really possible right now, is it? They might just as well announce the rest of the string family tomorrow :mrgreen:


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## ysnyvz (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*

may be adagio violins will solve my problem, but it's not 'next generation' to me until a strings library can sound like this:


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



utopia @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> And we don't quite now when this project has started and how much work has already been done so guessing the possible timeline for future announcements is not really possible right now, is it? They might just as well announce the rest of the string family tomorrow :mrgreen:



Oh, does look like I may have made an assumption with just the violins, since they tweeted this image:

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/399808_288533371182518_193134420722414_696133_360194629_n.jpg (http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 4629_n.jpg)

It's all vaguely annoying this drip feed of stuff. Kind of reminds me of this image:

http://www.lolhome.com/img_big/funny-pi ... 230854.jpg


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## utopia (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*

Haha, great image Guy :mrgreen:


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## Daryl (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



noiseboyuk @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> Daryl @ Sun Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > At the moment there is not enough information for me to have any kind of opinion. All I've head is the teaser trailer, and there is nothing new that I hear. So there is a lot to prove.
> ...


It all depends on how it is implemented. There are at least 6 or 7 different legato transitions in VSL, more if you include the Performance Trills, which all happen within the same patch. There are specific circumstances where RR is actually necessary for legato, but mostly they are not. RR are much more useful with short articulations, IMO. Still don't see the "next generation" tag being fulfilled so far.

D


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



Daryl @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> It all depends on how it is implemented. There are at least 6 or 7 different legato transitions in VSL, more if you include the Performance Trills, which all happen within the same patch. There are specific circumstances where RR is actually necessary for legato, but mostly they are not. RR are much more useful with short articulations, IMO. Still don't see the "next generation" tag being fulfilled so far.
> 
> D



6 or 7? I count 4 - legato, slow legato, portamento, gliss. What are the others? What did I miss?

The other side to this is how they are implemented. If the scripting is advanced and is focused on ease of use and playability - and ok we don't know that for sure yet but it would be a great surprise if it wasn't - then that makes a HUGE difference.

The holy grail is something that has a wide range of styles, sounds stunning out of the box and plays easily. 10x legato and rr legato, assuming it is well scripted, would definitely fulfil that criteria for me. Few people consider VSL to sound as good as the more modern libraries, despite their huge range of articulations.

However, I'll stick a question mark in the thread title!

EDIT - the title is also meant to refer to the other new library upgrades - CS and LASS. LASS in particular will be breaking new ground.


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## Nostradamus (Dec 18, 2011)

In my opinion it's really brave to release a new string library since the competition is really stiff. On the other hand there are always composers looking for even more realistic articulations. This seems to be an endless (and expensive) race for realism.


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## Daryl (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



noiseboyuk @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> Daryl @ Sun Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > It all depends on how it is implemented. There are at least 6 or 7 different legato transitions in VSL, more if you include the Performance Trills, which all happen within the same patch. There are specific circumstances where RR is actually necessary for legato, but mostly they are not. RR are much more useful with short articulations, IMO. Still don't see the "next generation" tag being fulfilled so far.
> ...


OK, forgive me if I miss something:

Legato, Fast Legato, Legato Trill (x4), Legato Slur, Fast legato Slur, Portamento, Zigane, Repetition legato (there are a few of these). There are also a few others that don't have the transition material attached.

So, it all depends on what these "legato" articulations are.

D


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## utopia (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*



> In my opinion it's really brave to release a new string library since the competition is really stiff. On the other hand there are always composers looking for even more realistic articulations. This seems to be an endless (and expensive) race for realism.


Well I've been trying to decide between HS and LASS for a long time now and the problem is...Neither of them seem to satisfy me 100%. I can't say that I've found my ultimate string library yet. This,though, might just be it. As I said, for me it depends on whether they chose to do a complete strings bundle with a comprehensive list of articulations or if it's more of a niche product with a very narrow focus on delivering the very best possible legato for expressive/slow melodies. I do hope they sampled everything they could o/~


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## Folmann (Dec 18, 2011)

We are receiving an overwhelming amount of questions in regards to our upcoming Adagio release. Please post your questions on our website (see link below) and we will address them in a Podcast that will go out in a couple of days. To get things rolling – here is a little glimpse into our legato articulation list, which were each recorded uniquely for the purpose of creating our favorite sound out-of-the-box:

- Extra Terrestrial Legato
- Perdition Legato
- Adagio Legato
- Schindler’s Legato
- Lost Legato
- Instinct Legato
- Village Legato

Please post here: http://8dio.com/?page_id=9667


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## George Caplan (Dec 18, 2011)

wasnt there something called cinematicstrings coming out? what happened to that?


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## Pochflyboy (Dec 18, 2011)

Playability is going to make the difference in these new string libraries. Adagio strings first demo wonderful fantastic but it's still a demo. If it took 8 hours to make that I'm out, and it certainly is not a holy Grail if that is the case.

Cinematic strings and LASS both seem to be offering new options in playability. For 8dio to be offering the holy Grail I think it will have to address that with 10 legatos.

Cheers,
Joe


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 18, 2011)

Folmann @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> We are receiving an overwhelming amount of questions in regards to our upcoming Adagio release. Please post your questions on our website (see link below) and we will address them in a Podcast that will go out in a couple of days. To get things rolling – here is a little glimpse into our legato articulation list, which were each recorded uniquely for the purpose of creating our favorite sound out-of-the-box:
> 
> - Extra Terrestrial Legato
> - Perdition Legato
> ...



Questions asked at the website...

Must admit this seems very strange at first sight. I'm sure all will be revealed. LASS 2 I can easily understand why they'd want to name a timbral response after a film, makes perfect sense. But a single type of legato transition?! Kinda implies that ET has one legato style which is synonymous with the movie which is, um, a bit odd.

Well, it's kinda intriguing I guess.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 18, 2011)

Never mind.


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## Theseus (Dec 18, 2011)

Wouldn't it be simpler if instead of asking "questions that would be addressed in a podcast in a couple of days", you would just stick to the words you put up with the killing teaser trailer yesterday ?



> Check back tomorrow for demos, specs and more information



Ok, we're tomorrow, me want demos, specs and more information. Me do no want asking questions :mrgreen:


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## Lex (Dec 18, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> This is not a shot across the bow at any developer or library but a philosophical issue for this community and the industry as a whole.



No? Really? Isn't this exactly how you turn threads like this in to a spit fest, slowly but surely?

alex


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## choc0thrax (Dec 18, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> This is not a shot across the bow at any developer.



This is how far I get into your posts before I laugh. Not a complaint, though, I like to laugh!


I'll admit that when non-east west libraries are announced I too become troubled by deep philosophical issues. It's almost... like there's.... a ...question... that only -- I -- can answer for myself... Hm. Dark times. Dark times indeed... We can get through this, though. I know this to be true.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 18, 2011)

OK, I have deleted the original post because I can see from the first responses to it that this cannot be the thoughtful, respectful, and perhaps important discussion in a non-commercial announcement thread that theoretically this community is capable of having but practically is not. Too bad IMHO.


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## choc0thrax (Dec 18, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> OK, I have deleted the original post because I can see from the first responses to it that this cannot be the thoughtful, respectful, and perhaps important discussion in a non-commercial announcement thread that theoretically this community is capable of having but practically is not. Too bad IMHO.



Yeah, you should've learned long ago you can't reason with all the cavemen on here. On the plus side: with no flame war you now have a lot more free time to ponder troubling industry issues. Maybe even ruminate.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 18, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ 18/12/2011 said:


> OK, I have deleted the original post because I can see from the first responses to it that this cannot be the thoughtful, respectful, and perhaps important discussion in a non-commercial announcement thread that theoretically this community is capable of having but practically is not. Too bad IMHO.



Jay, the fact that you deleted your first post makes this one completely useless for those of us who came late (we have no idea what you wanted to say).


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## RiffWraith (Dec 18, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> Never mind.



Good idea!

Anytime you need to say "This is not a shot across the bow at any developer" - you know there is a problem. Why do you feel you need to say that? I know why - b/c you are wanting people to not take what you say the wrong way. Now, why would you be concerned with people taking what you say the wrong way, to the extent that you need to add a disclaimer to your post? Why is that?


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## Dietz (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: The Next Generation Strings Thread*

If you allow for some information from the sideline:



jamwerks @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> [...]
> I imagine that VSL hasn't recorded anything new yet.


Recordings are done more or less every day since over a decade now.




> MIR Pro is finally out, and that should give another year of sales to their current libraries.


A thorough answer regarding MIR Pro and its uses would take this thread off-topic too far.




> I imagine they will abandon their in-house Silent-Stage as a recording space, and move to a mid-size scoring stage.


No.




> So nothing new for them probably for a while. And we'll probably see massive sales on their current stuff before anything else is offered.


Not as far as I know. 



> In general, given costs of musician time, studios, and editing, complete libraries (articulation & size wise) don't seem to exist anymore. [...]



Well - last time I looked all the VSL sample data was still existing on my hard-drive. 

Kind regards,

/Dietz


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## muziksculp (Dec 18, 2011)

Looking forward to the Next Generation VSL Strings o/~ o/~ o/~ 

o-[][]-o


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## bsl (Dec 18, 2011)

A lot of technologies are being developed, and I think that 2012 will bring something new, even about the strings o/~ 
o-[][]-o


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2011)

Hey, here's a crazy notion-it's all good! (isn't it?)

Which developer would you like taken off the board? EW, who has arguably done more than anyone in pushing the envelope? VSL, who also established the high bar? 8dio and Soundiron, who have taken deep sampling to new extremes? Audiobro and their great legatos, portamento, efficiency? Cinematic strings, very rich sounding?

I do think when you speak in terms of 'Holy Grail', you invite discussion of hyperbolic marketing-on the other hand, no one can argue with Troels' accomplishments in the field, so.

Competition=good!


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 18, 2011)

Well, if the 8dio library is going the way I think it is going, a philosophical discussion is inevitable. Looks like their podcast will be sooner rather than later to explain how this all really works.


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## rgames (Dec 18, 2011)

The major shortcoming I've found in string libraries is fast legato. Takes a lot of tweaking to get it to sound decent.

rgames


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## Mahlon (Dec 18, 2011)

What does 8dio stand for? What does it come from? It's like a license plate, and I'm terrible at that stuff -- drives me mad when I get behind someone with a clever one. I'm running stoplights trying to figure it out. I'm a bit dim-witted, you see.

Soooo.... what does it stand for again?

Thanky,
Mahlon


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## Johnny42 (Dec 18, 2011)

Dio means god in Italian and was the name of a greek philosopher.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2011)

It's a tribute to the late Ronnie James Dio and his impressive measurements (considering his short stature).


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## Ed (Dec 18, 2011)

Mahlon @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> What does 8dio stand for? What does it come from? It's like a license plate, and I'm terrible at that stuff -- drives me mad when I get behind someone with a clever one. I'm running stoplights trying to figure it out. I'm a bit dim-witted, you see.
> 
> Soooo.... what does it stand for again?
> 
> ...



Im pretty sure its called 8dio because saying 8dio fast starts to sound a bit like "audio".


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## KingIdiot (Dec 18, 2011)

not really going out on a limb here, but I'd guess that Troels being Danish, 8 is pronounced owed or something like that (otte, says google), put that in front of dio and you have owed-dio, or audio.


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## Udo (Dec 18, 2011)

8dio = 8 digital inputs/outputs


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## Folmann (Dec 18, 2011)

8DIO is an abstract version of AUDIO. 8DIO is pronounced (EIGHT-DEE-OOH). 8DIO is a reference to Digital Input Output and DIO is a singular (Italian) expression for God. The 8 is made of two circles – hence the aspect of tension and release in music. The 8 is a 90′ angled symbol of infinity. It also correlates with the idea of a full octave and a number of luck in Chinese philosophy. It also ties in with our production music company, 8Dawn, which was founded on the question: “What did God do on the 8th day? We got many other obscure and pseudo-intellectual reasons, but hopefully this will suffice.

http://8dio.com/?page_id=6840#howdoes


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## KingIdiot (Dec 18, 2011)

people on a forum, go to a website for info... unheard of


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2011)

KingIdiot @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> people on a forum, go to a website for info... unheard of



That presumes that the answer is something "people on the forum" are dying to know.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 18, 2011)

Hmmmm... an octet of Ronnie's is a bloody great idea!


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## utopia (Dec 18, 2011)

Ok, the articulations list redefines confusion :D Most of it I didn't understand,but it looks like it's comprehensive and well though out. 
The missing dynamics in some of the patches kind of worry me. 
Also, does anyone have an idea of how would we be getting a second violins group with this bundle? On the page it states that they'll be making violas,cellos,basses...but what about 2nd violins? Both HS and LASS feature separate recording of 2nd violins..surely i must-have for a modern string library,no?
And of course, I'd also be very curios to know,if this library will do fast stuff -passages,fast legato melodies,runs etc etc. Or if it's only meant for Adagio o/~


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## muziksculp (Dec 18, 2011)

@Folmann,

Congratulations on your new Adagio Violins (hopefully Adagio Strings in the near future) o/~ o/~ o/~ 

Audio demos I heard sound wonderful. Looking forward to checking this one in more detail once more demos, and info. is out. Also the rest of the Strings family of instruments will be a big +

Looks like 2012 is going to be another good year for better strings, Let's see now :

Cinematic Strings (the next version/update), LASS-2, maybe VSL (New Strings), EWQL (Solo Violin), Miroslav new strings, Sample Modeling (although not sure when they will get to offer their strings), and possibly other new Strings Libraries from ambitious developers. Wish you all a Healthy, prosperous, and Happy 2012 !

Oh... and I hope soundware developers are not ignoring the good old 'Woodwind family', they need a lot of improvements, and support :mrgreen: 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 18, 2011)

utopia @ Mon Dec 19 said:


> Ok, the articulations list redefines confusion :D Most of it I didn't understand,but it looks like it's comprehensive and well though out.
> The missing dynamics in some of the patches kind of worry me.
> Also, does anyone have an idea of how would we be getting a second violins group with this bundle? On the page it states that they'll be making violas,cellos,basses...but what about 2nd violins? Both HS and LASS feature separate recording of 2nd violins..surely i must-have for a modern string library,no?
> And of course, I'd also be very curios to know,if this library will do fast stuff -passages,fast legato melodies,runs etc etc. Or if it's only meant for Adagio o/~



The more I see, the more confused I am too...

On the point of the 2nd violins, LASS (and HS too I believe) actually use a trick here. They are not separate recordings, but use adjacent samples and EQ to create a 2nd patch that will not phase or overalap with 1st violins, and sounds subtly different (panning too is adjusted). I guess 8dio can do the same thing in future.

At this point understanding how things are controlled is so crucial much more evaluation is kinda redundant. It's apparently incredibly easy to use and is super-playable, yet has about 1,000 different styles. I think there are clues that a lot of the articulations are fixed in length... which is the kind of thing that makes for fantastic demos and a frustrating experience.

EDIT - also to note that the library is Kontakt 4, which means no Time Machine Pro, which means no usable time stretching on those fixed-length patches. Although I don't yet have K5, I think that's a serious mistake - the possibility to at least make those dynamic articulations tempo-sync within certain limits appears to be lost.


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## wesbender (Dec 19, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Dec 19 said:


> EDIT - also to note that the library is Kontakt 4, which means no Time Machine Pro, which means no usable time stretching on those fixed-length patches. Although I don't yet have K5, I think that's a serious mistake - the possibility to at least make those dynamic articulations tempo-sync within certain limits appears to be lost.



It only requires 4, but on the product page it says -

"Unique Programming for Kontakt 5 users"


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 19, 2011)

wesbender @ Mon Dec 19 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Mon Dec 19 said:
> 
> 
> > EDIT - also to note that the library is Kontakt 4, which means no Time Machine Pro, which means no usable time stretching on those fixed-length patches. Although I don't yet have K5, I think that's a serious mistake - the possibility to at least make those dynamic articulations tempo-sync within certain limits appears to be lost.
> ...



Oh, good spot. That could make a HUGE difference, potentially.


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## Mahlon (Dec 19, 2011)

Folmann @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> 8DIO is an abstract version of AUDIO. 8DIO is pronounced (EIGHT-DEE-OOH). 8DIO is a reference to Digital Input Output and DIO is a singular (Italian) expression for God. The 8 is made of two circles – hence the aspect of tension and release in music. The 8 is a 90′ angled symbol of infinity. It also correlates with the idea of a full octave and a number of luck in Chinese philosophy. It also ties in with our production music company, 8Dawn, which was founded on the question: “What did God do on the 8th day? We got many other obscure and pseudo-intellectual reasons, but hopefully this will suffice.
> 
> http://8dio.com/?page_id=6840#howdoes



Thanks. That suffices.


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 19, 2011)

Good thread Guy. Helps wade through it all. I think this and a 'walk through' from Troels and team - we'll be able to tell if this new release will help our individual causes.

My gut says that even if it 'only' does the Newman Adagio type type stuff VERY well - with GREAT tone - it will be a 'must have'.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 19, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Dec 19 said:


> On the point of the 2nd violins, LASS (and HS too I believe) actually use a trick here. They are not separate recordings, but use adjacent samples and EQ to create a 2nd patch that will not phase or overalap with 1st violins, and sounds subtly different (panning too is adjusted).



Partially incorrect. 

Per EW, Hollywood Strings 2nd Violins are recorded with different players.

Per Audiobro, LASS 2nd violins are created out of the first.


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## utopia (Dec 19, 2011)

Peter,
Any news with Miroslav strings btw? I thought I read they were going to be available in the beginning of december..any updates?


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 19, 2011)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Dec 19 said:


> Per EW, Hollywood Strings 2nd Violins are recorded with different players.
> 
> Per Audiobro, LASS 2nd violins are created out of the first.



Oooh there you go, didn't realise that. Thanks Peter.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 19, 2011)

Not sure why it hasn't been linked yet, but there's a technical demo up now here:

http://soundcloud.com/8dawn/adagio-tech-demo-ensemble

OK, I'll say it... I'm not so keen on this one. Maybe the composition is getting in the way, having to use only violins, but it actually sounds pretty messy and even synthy at times. The solo violin sounds great, but that's phrases, so there you go.

Is that a bow change at 0.02? Odd...


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## ysnyvz (Dec 19, 2011)

ensemble expressive legato doesn't sound good because of time stretching (time machine)


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## Ed (Dec 19, 2011)

Adagio Tech demo:* "Divisi Dynamic Bowing and Divisi Legato"*

http://soundcloud.com/8dawn/adagio-tech-demo-divisi


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## james7275 (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm not really feeling this one either. yes the solo violin sounds good, but like you said that's mostly using phrases.

Like others have stated the bar has already been set pretty high with what's out there. So with already owning HS and Albio,n I'm really going to have to be 'wowed' to buy this thing.


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## jamwerks (Dec 19, 2011)

I love it all so far. Don't think I could get that sound out of any other library. Would like to hear some naked samples too !


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 19, 2011)

utopia @ Mon Dec 19 said:


> Peter,
> Any news with Miroslav strings btw? I thought I read they were going to be available in the beginning of december..any updates?



Hi Utopia, I announced earlier that the library was already at duplication. According to Best Service, because of the Holidays, we'll see copies here approximately the first week of January. 

There is so much news about this library that until today I couldn't really say anything. What I can say is that you're getting two different sounding libraries.

The first is what I'd call the standard strings and the second are the Blendeds. The Blendeds are a different sound. 

I compared them last night to the standard MV strings (2.0) using Sir William Walton's film score cue The Princes In The Tower from Richard III. First 37 seconds until the flute and solo strings enter.

http://youtu.be/qVahoyOPMI8

This is five-part harmony with triads voiced down for Vls 1, Vls 2 and Violas over Cellos and Basses in octaves. 

I also compared both versions to two other libraries.

I was and am very impressed with what Miroslav has achieved with 2.0. Right now the Blendeds are only available for the Sus Legs for each string section. However, right after it ships there will be an immediate update providing the new blended articulations for Det Leg, Stac, Stacc Spiccato and Pizz. 

This will then give you two different sounding libraries in the same package at the $699 pre-order price which at this point is extended through NAMM. 

I don't know the order, but woodwinds and brass are next, and whatever other update is scheduled for the strings won't be available until after the full orch has shipped.

http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Products/Miroslav-Vitous-String-Ensembles-20---Composers-Dream__MV-String-spc-Ensembles-spc-2-prd-0.aspx (http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Prod ... prd-0.aspx)

Thanks for asking.


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## utopia (Dec 19, 2011)

Peter,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Any word on when the demos will be available? Curious to hear how it sounds.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm all for new strings, as I am looking to buy, but if there are legato transitions in The MV demos, I couldn't hear them.


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## utopia (Dec 19, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 19 said:


> I'm all for new strings, as I am looking to buy, but if there are legato transitions in The MV demos, I couldn't hear them.


I thought these are the v1 demos, NOT the v2 which is coming out. Not sure why are they even on that page if that is true as they have nothing to do with the coming up library.


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## utopia (Dec 19, 2011)

In the meantime I must admit that the last two demos of 8dio strings are far beyond anything I've heard in sample libraries. Plain awesome.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 19, 2011)

utopia @ Tue Dec 20 said:


> In the meantime I must admit that the last two demos of 8dio strings are far beyond anything I've heard in sample libraries. Plain awesome.



Really? With the exception of the solo violin - which are phrases so for me can be discounted - I have to say I was unimpressed with those. I think both the current LASS and HS could achieve better results (CS too probably) with the first technical demo. LASS could do the divisi nicely too I think.

The first 2 demos sounded really promising, so I'm far from writing off the library, but there's still much to prove I think.


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## utopia (Dec 19, 2011)

Not sure why you think the solo violin is phrases...From the specs on the website they do have a phrases toolbox but they also have multisampled solo violin,no?
Like you, I'm not at all interested in phrased based libs.


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## choc0thrax (Dec 19, 2011)

Sounds like we're gonna need comparison demos from other libs!

This could become a megathread. ^>|


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 19, 2011)

utopia @ Tue Dec 20 said:


> Not sure why you think the solo violin is phrases...From the specs on the website they do have a phrases toolbox but they also have multisampled solo violin,no?
> Like you, I'm not at all interested in phrased based libs.



The title of that demo says "+ bonus phrases" - it's very clear that is certainly the majority of the solo violin, all the "wow" stuff. Makes for a terrific-sounding demo of course, but if you strip that out... hmm.

Cue phrases megathread....


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## jamwerks (Dec 19, 2011)

About those phrases, it would be awesome to have them paired with the technology of the Uberschall-Melodyne liquid stuff. Now that would be flexible !


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## utopia (Dec 19, 2011)

meh..sceptic about these phrases :/
Btw, any news on LASS 2.0? I'm not a member of audiobro forum (obviously,as I don't own LASS) so no info for me. Anyone care to share? When's the planned release?


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## vrocko (Dec 20, 2011)

utopia @ Mon Dec 19 said:


> meh..sceptic about these phrases :/
> Btw, any news on LASS 2.0? I'm not a member of audiobro forum (obviously,as I don't own LASS) so no info for me. Anyone care to share? When's the planned release?




The latest on LASS 2.0 is that its at NI getting its final encoding as of today (Monday).
Andrew said if all goes well he plans on releasing it this week...... Hopefully.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 20, 2011)

jamwerks @ Tue Dec 20 said:


> About those phrases, it would be awesome to have them paired with the technology of the Uberschall-Melodyne liquid stuff. Now that would be flexible !



2 problems with that - 1, it's still majorly fiddly to have to change a predefined line even if the rhythm and length fit and 2, the whole point of phrases is the connectivity between the notes is golden, and that would likely be wrecked if you're changing half the notes. Phrases is phrases (megathread continues...)


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 21, 2011)

utopia @ Tue Dec 20 said:


> meh..sceptic about these phrases :/
> Btw, any news on LASS 2.0? I'm not a member of audiobro forum (obviously,as I don't own LASS) so no info for me. Anyone care to share? When's the planned release?



More frustrating news I'm afraid - the new release date is now the first week of January:



> 1) The development team that helped us create the Audiobro Download Center (ADC) application will be leaving for the Holidays until the new year -- and it would be irresponsible to release it without them standing-by in case anything should go wrong
> 2) The e-commerce coder who integrated our new system (which also communicates with the ADC) will be gone until the 29th
> 3) Native Instruments have closed their doors until the New Year. If there were any Kontakt 5 issues or Service Center issues... there would be no support.
> 4) It gives us some added time to really wrap a bow around this release... in the form of some tasty Stage and Color Multis.



...all of which makes perfect sense, but of course it's still frustrating.

Andrew goes on to say (amid profuse apologies!) that between now and then they'll be uploading videos and other bits and pieces, so at least we'll be able to get our heads round the massive amount of new changes in the library, and get the first chance to hear Stage and Color I guess.


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## Resoded (Dec 21, 2011)

Even though it's frustrating, it's so nice that they use the time to improve it even more.

Can't wait to dig into 2.0!


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## zacnelson (Dec 21, 2011)

I get frustrated with sample library demos that feature so many non-advertised other instruments so prominently in the arrangement. At least with the spitfire demos you hear basically what you get out of the box. I think some libraries sound much better when music is specifically composed to highlight their strong points but as soon as you start to use the library the frustration sets in. Those phrases for example are only useful if you are commissioned to write a demo for the phrase library.


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## quantum7 (Dec 21, 2011)

+1


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## Markus S (Dec 21, 2011)

For the next generation strings, I wish there was some effort spent to not only build bigger and better libraries, but also smaller and better libraries. Using more intelligent scripting, maybe, like the Sample Modeling approach, but for orchestral stuff.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 22, 2011)

zacnelson @ Wed Dec 21 said:


> I get frustrated with sample library demos that feature so many non-advertised other instruments so prominently in the arrangement. At least with the spitfire demos you hear basically what you get out of the box. I think some libraries sound much better when music is specifically composed to highlight their strong points but as soon as you start to use the library the frustration sets in. Those phrases for example are only useful if you are commissioned to write a demo for the phrase library.



There was another new demo out today - Burn http://8dio.com/?btp_product=adagio-violins-vol-1 . Seems very popular on the facebook comments, but I'm with you I think, Zac.


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## zacnelson (Dec 22, 2011)

Well I just listened to the `Burn' demo, thanks for pointing that out. I must say at least on that demo the strings were really front and centre a lot more in the mix, and it demonstrated the strengths of the library quite well. BUT another HORRIBLE HORRIBLE piece of music I promised myself I would cuy my own head off if I ever again hear those ostinato in the style of Zimmer or TRON Legacy or (insert most films of the last few years) so I'd better go sharpen the knife....

Look I think this library will be great in spite of my reservations on the demos. I would rather a demo that sounded really dry and average and it was like just sitting at a keyboard trying the patches. I love the walk-through videos like what Mike Verta has done or some other ones on youtube


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## wesbender (Dec 22, 2011)

zacnelson @ Thu Dec 22 said:


> BUT another HORRIBLE HORRIBLE piece of music



tough crowd...


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## NYC Composer (Dec 22, 2011)

I'm sorry , I am listening avidly and hopefully, but these demos are telling me absolutely nothing. They seem purposefully obscure. The podcast amazed me...all that talk about methodology and no audio examples to illustrate?? All of the earnest talk about "what we wanted to achieve"..."deepest sampling"... it all has its place, but does nothing for me as a consumer simply wishing to hear and understand a product. I got through about 15 minutes and gave up.

Simple question-aside from the solo violin,is this an adagio violin ensemble only, or can it play fast legato passages as well?


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## Colin O'Malley (Dec 22, 2011)

Guys, 

We'll have exposed demos showing the various legato types and speeds well before the release. I look for the same when researching a library. 

Colin


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## Jack Weaver (Dec 22, 2011)

I realize you don't have the tech demos ready yet but are you willing to make some sort of characterizations of what to expect regarding the fast(er) speed articulations?

Are there artics that can do somewhat fast, a little fast, real fast, or blazing fast? Are there a just a few of them or many differing types? Otherwise, was it the main purpose of the new library to just get a specific sound without its main consideration being about high speed phrase flexibility?

I'm considering laying out a considerable amount of money for 8Dio libraries in the next couple days and have a ton of older, Tonehammer libraries of which some get regular usage and some just sit around on my drives. It'd be nice to know where this is going before purchase time. Yes, I did listen to the podcast but 90 min. of overlapping questions got a little tedious. 

Thanks. 

.


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## zacnelson (Dec 22, 2011)

Colin O'Malley @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> Guys,
> 
> We'll have exposed demos showing the various legato types and speeds well before the release. I look for the same when researching a library.
> 
> Colin



Ah excellent, thanks Colin! PS I thought your Spitfire demos were beautifully composed and mixed


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## Colin O'Malley (Dec 22, 2011)

Hi Jack, 

One of our legato variations was sampled deliberately fast. The sound of the intervals as they're really pushing is totally different than the slower cleaner variations. I guess the best way to describe the fast ones would be really expressive slurs. That's the "Extra Terrestrial" legato we've mentioned. It's good that you chimed in asking us to show you fast. I'll make it a point to do that. 

Colin


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## Colin O'Malley (Dec 22, 2011)

Thanks a lot, Zac.

Colin


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## NYC Composer (Dec 22, 2011)

Colin O'Malley @ Thu Dec 22 said:


> Hi Jack,
> 
> One of our legato variations was sampled deliberately fast. The sound of the intervals as they're really pushing is totally different than the slower cleaner variations. I guess the best way to describe the fast ones would be really expressive slurs. That's the "Extra Terrestrial" legato we've mentioned. It's good that you chimed in asking us to show you fast. I'll make it a point to do that.
> 
> Colin



Yes Jack, I'm really glad you asked that as well. :wink:


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## Udo (Dec 22, 2011)

Colin O'Malley @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> Guys,
> 
> We'll have exposed demos showing the various legato types and speeds well before the release. I look for the same when researching a library.
> 
> Colin


Colin, you and Troels should have waited with the announcements till you could demonstrate some real substance, rather than presenting some overproduced vagaries now, were practically none of this "fantastic new approach" comes through.

It looks like the sole reason for announcing it now was to take the gloss of some just released or about to be released competitors' products. :wink:


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## Colin O'Malley (Dec 22, 2011)

Udo, 

I understand it can appear that way in this small community we're in, but we've been planning the announcement for a while. It carries us into NAMM next month with the actual release following shortly thereafter. 

Colin


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## Mike Marino (Dec 22, 2011)

> tough crowd...



Indeed.


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## Jack Weaver (Dec 22, 2011)

Thanks for the timely response, Colin. Looking forward to a spritely demo or two!


.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 22, 2011)

Mike Marino @ Thu Dec 22 said:


> > tough crowd...
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed.



Perhaps so, but when marketing is presented to start a buzz about a product, it's certainly fair to ask specific questions when the presentations are somewhat vague or obscure.


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## Udo (Dec 22, 2011)

Colin O'Malley @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> Udo,
> 
> I understand it can appear that way in this small community we're in, but we've been planning the announcement for a while. It carries us into NAMM next month with the actual release following shortly thereafter.
> 
> Colin


Colin, my last sentence (the one I think you responded to) was tongue-in-cheek (forgot :wink:, now corrected), but, as I said, why make an announcment when you have no demos ready to present the real substance, or worse, deliberately presenting us with "fluff" as teasers, at a time of the year when there's already so much fluff around. :roll:


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## Colin O'Malley (Dec 22, 2011)

Udo, 

I gotcha. Yeah there's certainly plenty of fluff out there! I understand where you're coming from. Anyway, more non-fluff soon  
Best, 

Colin


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 22, 2011)

Zac's post made me laugh out loud! I must admit I wasn't a (musical) fan of Burn either, and there must have been other strings in there too 'cos of the other sections so... all round I was kinda confused.

Really appreciate your input here though Colin, do stick around... I think Jack echoed my own thoughts very well, so from your response I'm sure you guys will have it all covered in good time.


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## Vision (Dec 23, 2011)

Hmm.. Yeah.. Sorta disagree on the fluff statements. Colin's piece "Air" isn't fluff. I haven't heard too many other string libraries pulling off that kind of sheer expressive, playable, tonal quality, whilst using minimal cpu resources.. and without using a lot of cc editing. I'm just curious, what are some of you guys expecting, and what are you actually listening for? 

Not trying to start anything. I'm just curious. Personally, I was very very impressed with "Air" and "Sorrow". I consider myself to be very discerning when it comes to samples. And these guys (imho), have achieved something special.

I'm looking forward to the naked demo's as well. But, my ears told me everything I needed to know with the "Air" teaser. I'm not trying to take anything away from the other libraries. Each of them have a unique flavor. I have most of them.. and use them. But personally, my ears tell me that this new library has raised the bar.


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## Resoded (Dec 23, 2011)

zacnelson @ 23rd December 2011 said:


> BUT another HORRIBLE HORRIBLE piece of music I promised myself I would cuy my own head off if I ever again hear those ostinato in the style of Zimmer or TRON Legacy or (insert most films of the last few years) so I'd better go sharpen the knife....



Wow. I've never been to a musicians forum where people are so keen on trashing others work. Funny though, thinking about the average age on this forum I'd thought it would be the other way around. At least in the ones I've been to people show a lot more respect.

There hardly seem to be even a single topic without someone spewing bitter hatred over something. 

I guess it's charming once you get used to it.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 23, 2011)

Fair points, Erik - official demos I guess do get treated much more critically than members compositions of course.

Just listened to Colin's new demo which sounds better to me, though it's still pretty busy for those of us looking for more exposed stuff (appreciate that these are being rolled out not according to our whim of course). I think part of the problem is that a lot of the bigger demos you just end up thinking "well, any good library can do that".

VI-C is a notoriously tough crowd, and that can be a blessing and a curse. When 8dio announce a "next generation library", breaking new ground etc, it's inevitable that people will be listening very critically here to see if it justifies the hype. 

I agree with Peter that so far that to date the Air and Sorrow demos have shown us most clearly what the new library brings to the table, and I guess there's a sense of disappointment for me that I haven't heard anything beyond that yet, especially in the tech demos that didn't deliver for me. I'm thinking purely about the library here, not the quality of the music in the demos. But on the subject of the music itself, those Newman chords @1m in Sorrow are absolutely sublime. And therein lies the rub... there must be some lower strings there too, combined with the excellent composition, that add to the effect.

Let's get naked...


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## Resoded (Dec 23, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ 23rd December 2011 said:


> Fair points, Erik - official demos I guess do get treated much more critically than members compositions of course.
> 
> Just listened to Colin's new demo which sounds better to me, though it's still pretty busy for those of us looking for more exposed stuff (appreciate that these are being rolled out not according to our whim of course). I think part of the problem is that a lot of the bigger demos you just end up thinking "well, any good library can do that".
> 
> ...



Well yeah, I can somewhat understand harsher criticism against demos because they probably aren't heartfelt expressions by the creator. However, these bitter comments often trash tracks that aren't demos. 

It's true though, thankfully, that this hatred isn't directed to member compositions. But after reading a couple "I hate this, as long as it hasn't been done by someone here" comments, I get tired. I try to avoid the most bitter topics but this spills in all over the place.

I guess I'm just surprised.

Sorry for the OT btw. Maybe I should create another topic instead.

As for the topic, I think the demos sound great but as you say, they are really buried in the mix and some naked tracks are needed to get a proper impression. Personally, the price tag is also kinda hefty. 400 usd for violins, and I assume then that violas and cellos will have the same price which adds up to 1200 usd (+ VAT for some). Imho, at that price it really has to kick some HS and LASS ass.


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## Daryl (Dec 23, 2011)

Resoded @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> zacnelson @ 23rd December 2011 said:
> 
> 
> > BUT another HORRIBLE HORRIBLE piece of music I promised myself I would cuy my own head off if I ever again hear those ostinato in the style of Zimmer or TRON Legacy or (insert most films of the last few years) so I'd better go sharpen the knife....
> ...


Actually I don't think that there is any bitter hatred here. Developers are asking for our money, so like any other purchase, be it a used car or stocks and shares, we are entitled to be skeptical and bullish. If the developers were giving their product away and we only had to pay for it if we liked it, then it might be a different matter, but AFAIK very few developers of any software related product give refunds just because it wasn't suitable for the purposes for which it was purchased. If you look at the Members' Compositions forum you will see that nobody "trashes" anyone else's work. Then again, none of the composers are trying to get money out of us. :wink: 

I also think that anyone who is involved with a business should not take these things personally, and most don't (with a few notable exceptions). After all, as composers we don't treat our clients with disdain, no matter what we might sometimes think privately, particularly when it comes to budgets.

D


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 23, 2011)

Resoded @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> As for the topic, I think the demos sound great but as you say, they are really buried in the mix and some naked tracks are needed to get a proper impression. Personally, the price tag is also kinda hefty. 400 usd for violins, and I assume then that violas and cellos will have the same price which adds up to 1200 usd (+ VAT for some). Imho, at that price it really has to kick some HS and LASS ass.



I agree with all that. I find myself thinking LASS 2 is going to have to be a serious disappointment to seriously consider Adagio. I asked about a 16 bit 1 mic version which I'd personally be much more interested in, and Colin said "never say never" but it wouldn't be part of the initial plans at least. I take that to mean that all 4 sections, and probably the 2 volumes, will be out before they look at that issue. See, if that product were $199 with the introductory discount, it would be a different ball game for me, but there we go (am more than happy to not have the bonues phrases and ambiances too fwiw). Of course others will feel differently - all cool.

BTW, I forgot to say in the last post that the Burn demo there is a Soundcloud tag to say that the cellos at the start which I assumed were from another library are, in fact, violins pitched down -12. Works amazingly well!


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## NYC Composer (Dec 23, 2011)

@Daryl-it's interesting to read your point of view, because I think the opposite-I think many developers here take things WAY too personally. Either that, or they are extremely defensive about their creations from a business standpoint. It tends to look personal to me. I could quote chapter and verse on this matter, but that's probably better spun off into its own megathread 

I have the utmost respect for the incredibly talented developers who post and answer questions here. Requests for clarity from their clients should not be considered critiques, rather they should be looked as as what they are-expressions of interest in purchasing their work and a desire for more information (the occasional childish comment or ill-tempered expression notwithstanding, of course-no forum is without civility-challenged members.)

Regarding Adagio, I certainly have high hopes for another great violin library as I am looking to buy strings, but I find the demos and the podcast to be uninformative insofar as my concerns-how comprehensive are these violins from a multi-speed standpoint? The name certainly doesn't indicate multi-speeds. The demos up til now would be consistent with a product named Adagio. So....?

Hopefully, more information will be forthcoming after the holidays. I look forward to that.


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## Daryl (Dec 23, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> @Daryl-it's interesting to read your point of view, because I think the opposite-I think many developers here take things WAY too personally. Either that, or they are extremely defensive about their creations from a business standpoint. It tends to look personal to me. I could quote chapter and verse on this matter, but that's probably better spun off into its own megathread


I was trying to be tactful. Obviously I'm not very good at it. :oops: 

D


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## NYC Composer (Dec 23, 2011)

Daryl @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > @Daryl-it's interesting to read your point of view, because I think the opposite-I think many developers here take things WAY too personally. Either that, or they are extremely defensive about their creations from a business standpoint. It tends to look personal to me. I could quote chapter and verse on this matter, but that's probably better spun off into its own megathread
> ...



Perhaps I'm the one who's tact-challenged.  

I try to be polite and fair, but after all, I'm just another bozo on this bus.


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## Daryl (Dec 23, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> Daryl @ Fri Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 23 said:
> ...


LOL. I think that most of us fall into that category.

D


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## zacnelson (Dec 23, 2011)

Resoded @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> Wow. I've never been to a musicians forum where people are so keen on trashing others work. Funny though, thinking about the average age on this forum I'd thought it would be the other way around. At least in the ones I've been to people show a lot more respect.
> 
> There hardly seem to be even a single topic without someone spewing bitter hatred over something.
> 
> I guess it's charming once you get used to it.



Hi there, I just want to comment that I am very active in offering feedback on the member's compositions forum and I am NEVER rude or openly critical there. I make a point of listening to every thing that is posted there, if I am away for a few weeks I find some time to listen through sometimes a whole page worth of threads to catch up. If I hate a track I won't say anything. If I think I have something constructive to comment on a track which comes across as helpful rather than critical, I am happy to write comments that are not gushing with praise. I have also appreciated people making comments on my music which were not just praising me. And of course I am generous in my praise when I like something.

In the example in this thread where I criticised one of the demos, I would hardly see that as trashing a composer. It was merely a perfunctory piece of music put together to demonstrate the library and it is obvious that whoever composed it is merely proving that this library (very excellently I might add) can achieve a certain sound which is currently over-used in soundtracks. Of course it makes sense that they would want to demonstrate this; and no doubt there are many composers who are requested to imitate this style in their soundtracks because the director demands it, and they may sometimes have to do it in spite of their personal desire to compose more original music.

I personally am tired of hearing repeated cliches so I was just venting my frustration at hearing a tired cliche again; but of course if I had heard the same track in the member's compositions forum I would have politely said nothing.

I also commented that in spite of the music not appealing to me, I actually thought this new library sounded very promising in this demo. So really that is all the developer should want to hear. At least this was a demo where the new strings were not hidden behind pianos and woodwind etc. We have all heard `string library demos' where you hear more percussion or choir or brass etc instead of strings and of course we are all frustrated by that. Which is why I love the spitfire demos, they are quite naked. And I am confident that this new library WILL be excellent when it is naked and I sincerely don't think Colin would be involved in anything that wasn't excellent because he has great pedigree.

Really I have nothing against this new library at all and I wish it to succeed, however like many others I am particularly tired of demos that don't show more of the naked quality.

Sorry for the long post


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## Daryl (Dec 23, 2011)

Zac, I don't think you have anything to apologise for. I agree that offering up a composition for comment as a member of the forum, is totally different from offering up a composition designed to make you part with your hard earned money.

In any case, I think you should start a new thread and members should post their own music based on the Dark Knight Chugga-Chugga that you love so much, and then nobody will have to post it in any other thread ever again...! :lol: 

D


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## George Caplan (Dec 23, 2011)

i keep reading this chugga chugga. what the hell is it?


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## organix (Dec 23, 2011)

can someone explain a german guy like me what I have to meant by deep, deeper and deepest sampling?  
Is that any special sampling technique that is different from the other traditional audio sampling?


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## zacnelson (Dec 23, 2011)

It would be interesting to document the genesis of chugga chugga, and to note all the movies and tv shows that have employed it.

I remember Zimmer used it in the soundtrack to The Ring back around 2002 or 2003.

Any earlier examples?


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## Daryl (Dec 23, 2011)

zacnelson @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> It would be interesting to document the genesis of chugga chugga, and to note all the movies and tv shows that have employed it.
> 
> I remember Zimmer used it in the soundtrack to The Ring back around 2002 or 2003.
> 
> Any earlier examples?


Schubert's Unfinished Symphony?

D


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 23, 2011)

organix @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> can someone explain a german guy like me what I have to meant by deep, deeper and deepest sampling?
> Is that any special sampling technique that is different from the other traditional audio sampling?



I don't know who coined the term first (maybe it is Troels?), but I guess it just means "in depth". So if you deep sample a drum, you'll have loads of velocity layers, round robin, different strikes, unusual sounds etc - you capture the full essence of an instrument, not just the superficial main sound.

Personally I think it's time some of the cheaper libraries started boasting about their amazing Shallow Sampling techniques.


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## Resoded (Dec 23, 2011)

zacnelson @ 23rd December 2011 said:


> Resoded @ Fri Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow. I've never been to a musicians forum where people are so keen on trashing others work. Funny though, thinking about the average age on this forum I'd thought it would be the other way around. At least in the ones I've been to people show a lot more respect.
> ...



In all fairness this was the first time I heard you write any comments like that. I ought to have saved my statement for a more appropriate time. To clarify though, this was directed towards everyone even though I quoted you Zac. I've been annoyed by this several times and chose the wrong time to bring up the subject. 

I do agree that it's perfectly okay to vent occasionally.


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## zacnelson (Dec 23, 2011)

That's cool! Thanks for reading


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## Resoded (Dec 23, 2011)

Daryl @ 23rd December 2011 said:


> Zac, I don't think you have anything to apologise for. I agree that offering up a composition for comment as a member of the forum, is totally different from offering up a composition designed to make you part with your hard earned money.
> 
> In any case, I think you should start a new thread and members should post their own music based on the Dark Knight Chugga-Chugga that you love so much, and then nobody will have to post it in any other thread ever again...! :lol:
> 
> D



This was not what I said though.

I'm just surprised by the absence of respect in some posts. Being a member of this forum should not be the defining factor of a respectful tone or not.

To clarify though, I have never seen a single disrespectful comment in member compositions so that's not at all what I'm talking about.


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 23, 2011)

Daryl @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> zacnelson @ Fri Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > It would be interesting to document the genesis of chugga chugga, and to note all the movies and tv shows that have employed it.
> ...



Mozart Symphony No.40?


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## Dan Mott (Dec 23, 2011)

I think it's time for Troels to start undressing those strings so we can see them naked :mrgreen:


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## Erik (Dec 23, 2011)

I do agree, why hiding in demo's the qualities (whatever they are) of a string section by disturbingly using other sections (woodwinds, brass) and even choir (why o why)?

Just present a decent overview of all legato patches, short notes, runs etc.. So then and only then we are able to make a better judgement instead of of being distracted by a level (whatever this may be for individual forum members) of compositional skills.

So far I have been not well informed by the demo's, shortly.


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## Colin O'Malley (Dec 23, 2011)

Just to reiterate, we will have naked demos and detailed demonstrations well before the release. 

Colin


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## Daryl (Dec 23, 2011)

Resoded @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> Daryl @ 23rd December 2011 said:
> 
> 
> > Zac, I don't think you have anything to apologise for. I agree that offering up a composition for comment as a member of the forum, is totally different from offering up a composition designed to make you part with your hard earned money.
> ...


Respect for what though? If a car salesman tries to sell me a car, and I think it's rubbish, I'll tell him so. That's not a lack of respect. I think it is actually more respectful to tell the truth, and expect him to take the criticism as only my opinion, than to lie, which is much more disrespectful in my book.

D


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## Daryl (Dec 23, 2011)

Stephen Rees @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> Daryl @ Fri Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > zacnelson @ Fri Dec 23 said:
> ...


Yes, good one.

D


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## Resoded (Dec 23, 2011)

Daryl @ 23rd December 2011 said:


> Resoded @ Fri Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ 23rd December 2011 said:
> ...



I agree. This assuming that 8-dio wrote the demos. However, it's one thing to criticize the sound of and quality of the strings. It's another to criticize the writing of the demo.

If it's written by 8-dio then, okay sure, they probably haven't put their heart and soul into it.

If it's written by someone hired by them, then we can't tell how important this is for them. They might love what they do, and personally, since it's all based on opinions, I find it disrespectful to claim that what they do is horrible.

There's a reason why people don't say these things in the member compositions area, and I don't see why that reason doesn't apply to all works. Even those outside of this forum.


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## Ed (Dec 23, 2011)

Resoded @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> It's another to criticize the writing of the demo.



Its amazing the mental gymnastics people here are going to defend such impolite and disrespectful comments about peoples music. 

If you are saying that the strings dont sound good, thats different. If you are saying the demo isnt good because you cant hear enough of the strings, thats different. If your main comment is that you don't like the style, then this has no bearing on the product. 

You say that it would be disrespectful if these demos weren't written by Colin and Troels. They were, of course. Flow is Colin and Burn is Troels. You say that it would be disrespectful because "_ we can't tell how important this is for them. They might love what they do_". Why wouldn't this apply to Troels or Colin? Why are we perfectly justified to look at the same demo and say its horrible, but if it was written by someone else, it would not be? Again, this is talking about the style not how well it shows off the library. If THAT is your complaint, then by all means criticise away. 

Not to pick on you personally Resoded I just happen to have quoted you here. I also find it *incredibly *arrogant that Zac would have the balls to suggest that no one writes this kind of music because they like it, rather than because they have to because directors want to see it. I happen to love the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1Xe6zV_jdU&hd=1 (short stuff in Tron) and on the other thread asked Troels to make a demo showing that kind of sound because in the Podcast he mentioned it while talking about the short notes.


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## Theseus (Dec 23, 2011)

I understand why everybody would love to hear naked demos. I'm onboard. But...

1/ I understand that 8dio wants to show firstly demos that happen to be great pieces of music (no pun intended, I like what I heard, especially Colin's demo Air). Let's be honest, that's what mots companies do when they release something new.
2/ On the other hand me think it's way too soon for exposed naked demos from what I've heard. Even Colin's piece has some quirks that obviously need to be ironed-out before release. Listen to the round-robin legato at 0,15min in his Air demo and imagine a whole demo exposed with those wierd sounding quirky noises !
Troels and Colin said it's an Alpha-beta.


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## Resoded (Dec 23, 2011)

Ed @ 23rd December 2011 said:


> Resoded @ Fri Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > It's another to criticize the writing of the demo.
> ...



Wait, what?

I'm the one saying it's disrespectful. If I interpret your post correctly, this means we agree, no?

I still think it's disrespectful to claim their writing to be horrible. No matter who wrote it. I just think there are some cases worse than others.


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## wesbender (Dec 23, 2011)

Ed @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> Its amazing the mental gymnastics people here are going to defend such impolite and disrespectful comments about peoples music.



Yep, it is rather surprising.




> I also find it incredibly arrogant that Zac would have the balls to suggest that no one writes this kind of music because they like it, rather than because they have to because directors want to see it. I happen to love the short stuff in Tron and on the other thread asked Troels to make a demo showing that kind of sound because in the Podcast he mentioned it while talking about the short notes.



You mustn't forget that repetitive spiccato patterns are the mark of the beast around here and are only used by uneducated, musically-illiterate simpletons.


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## Ed (Dec 23, 2011)

wesbender @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> You mustn't forget that repetitive spiccato patterns are the mark of the beast around here and are only used by uneducated, musically-illiterate simpletons.



:lol: Its funny because that is _exactly _the opinion you'd have to take away from reading certain peoples comments on this forum.



Resoded @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> I'm the one saying it's disrespectful. If I interpret your post correctly, this means we agree, no?
> 
> I still think it's disrespectful to claim their writing to be horrible. No matter who wrote it. I just think there are some cases worse than others.



If I misunderstood you fair enough, but what you did say is ... _"I agree. This assuming that 8-dio wrote the demos_.".... which suggests that its fine to say the track is "crap", so long as its written by the demo creator rather than someone they hired to write a demo for them. You seem to say its disrespectful ONLY if the demo is not from Troels and Colin. You also said... "_If it's written by 8-dio then, okay sure, they probably haven't put their heart and soul into it._ "... and then also go right on to say ..."_If it's written by someone hired by them, then we can't tell how important this is for them." _... Why do you think that this would be any different for Colin or Troels? And why would someone hired by 8dio necessarily put any more effort into creating a demo? It also suggests to me a similar opinion as Zac, that people don't like writing music like this and only do it because they have to, which is why you said they..._ "probably haven't put their heart and soul into it_... as if to say that if they did they would not write in this style, again an amazingly arrogant sounding presumption to me. Don't get me wrong, you're not the person I should be picking on. There are far worse people here


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## NYC Composer (Dec 23, 2011)

To summarize-"but another HORRIBLE HORRIBLE piece of music"" could use a shovelful of tact dumped on it, imo. There are so many ways to say things.


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## Resoded (Dec 24, 2011)

Ed @ 24th December 2011 said:


> wesbender @ Fri Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > You mustn't forget that repetitive spiccato patterns are the mark of the beast around here and are only used by uneducated, musically-illiterate simpletons.
> ...



Ah okay, yeah I was trying to be gentle and not go too hard on Zac. If he meant his comment towards the company selling a product, then ok sure. I still don't think it's okay but I guess it's not as bad as directing it towards individuals. I could have been more clear in what I wrote though.

So I still think we're on the same page here.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 24, 2011)

Well... I'll be honest, Zac's post made me laugh, I saw it has an explosion of frustration. Zac is a really good guy, he is brilliant in Member's Compositions, I've been really grateful to his feedback - he really takes his time to give constructive and informed feedback.

Of course you're quite right Ed in that the style of music shouldn't make any difference when evaluating stuff, but it is inevitable that it does - we're all human. (chooses words very carefully) there is a perception here that trailer music is looked down upon by some. Oddly I see it as almost the other way. I've noticed that some of the biggest, loudest trailer-type cues get the most positive feedback and attention, regardless of their relative merit, and I suspect that maybe behind Zac's frustration. Doing trailer music well is a real skill of course, so not wanting to denigrate it, but I guess I think it gets harder and harder to stand out because it is so ubiquitous. Often I hear really great subtle stuff in member's compositions that gets all-but ignored. I don't want to embarrass Matt (The Unfinished), for example, but I noticed his reworked Christmas piece hadn't had a comment for days after his initial posting, which seemed mad... it was really terrific. Glad to see many others have chipped in now as well, and its much deserved, but it's not always the case.

This is totally irrelevant to the evaluation of the library, of course, but I personally didn't care for Burn, the disparate elements really didn't work for me at all, especially the choppy solo violin phrases. In these cases it - personally - is a barrier for me to evaluate the library. But its popularity generally is testament to the the fact that mine is a minority view, and if it helps demonstrate it can do a certain style its absolutely done its job of course.

Peace, harmony, goodwill to all men and women etc etc


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## tripit (Dec 24, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sat Dec 24 said:


> This is totally irrelevant to the evaluation of the library, of course, but I personally didn't care for Burn, the disparate elements really didn't work for me at all, especially the choppy solo violin phrases. In these cases it - personally - is a barrier for me to evaluate the library. But its popularity generally is testament to the the fact that mine is a minority view, and if it helps demonstrate it can do a certain style its absolutely done its job of course.
> 
> Peace, harmony, goodwill to all men and women etc etc



I'm in agreement.


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