# Open letter to Spitfire Audio - No Legato Update?



## Sean J (May 4, 2016)

Spitfire,

*When are we getting legato updates? I'm desperate for a more wide-ranging legato. *

The only problems I've ever had:

Legato patches which aren't practical to use at most moderate speeds. (it's at very least on the slow side)
No fast legatos outside the clarinet.
A Mural 3 "runs" patch that's well... not as high-quality as the rest from Spitfire.
Contrast that with some Spitfire history:

A historically rapid release schedule.
Promised BML releases in the air still.
Bespoke libraries have brilliant legato scripts.
Touting a better update philosophy from the start.
Promises of faster legato in future volumes.
Users paying for libraries based on BML development.
A shift from BML releases to other product lines.
Look, I've loved Spitfire from the release of Albion. I still do. I'm practically a free walking advertisement for you guys usually. But I've finally woken up to this problem. And now I'm just worried it's not actually being addressed. It's the only sore spot with Spitfire, but it's a major one IMO. The only thing you have to lose is this thread going away and you'll gain super excited customers.

Please, give us good news here!

-Sean

P.S. if BML volumes continue, I'll be happy to maintain my "walking advertisement" philosophy.


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## Sean J (May 4, 2016)

Before anyone gets defensive, I mean only to help... really.

I only publish an open letter for these reasons:
- I first gave feedback on this in tickets and emails 3 years ago
- Numerous others have in that time and prior
- Bespoke proves Spitfire is capable, but just haven't done anything about it
- Spitfire recently told me that VI Control is the best way to submit feedback to them in place of their more legacy support forum.

-Sean


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## FriFlo (May 4, 2016)

Brave! I have to say, I agree, but I have one more problem with spitfire recently, which is the price strategy and the fact that now for the second time a request I entered to the help desk vanished after a day without any reply given. Each time, I got a confirmation mail the request was received. Odd ...


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## Sean J (May 4, 2016)

lol, well I wondered if I was too bold by posting this. But I believe it is fair and should only be received as an attempt to try to help, not hurt. I'll gladly voice that Spitfire is the best sounding sample library out there IMO. Lyndhurst is a gem for the music world. I just expect people to live up to their word.

A friend of mine complains about their prices all the time. I've never had too large a complaint about it, but I've always been a bit of a Spitfire fanboy, so I've easily been prejudiced. This really is my only real complaint. The only other things I haven't liked are a lack of inner voices, full instrument ranges, and the lack of it all being free. First world problems.


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## RiffWraith (May 4, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> the fact that now for the second time a request I entered to the help desk vanished after a day without any reply given. Each time, I got a confirmation mail the request was received. Odd ...



Same here. You need to use the web_contact_form. The other way causes the tickets to disappear. I alerted them to this about nine months ago, and they have acknowledged my email about this, but they have not fixed it yet.

Evidently, they need more time.....

Cheers.


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## prodigalson (May 4, 2016)

Not that I necessarily disagree with the substance of some of your complaints, this isn't the way I would have gone about writing this "letter".

I generally find people don't respond warmly to such a sarcastic tone.


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## Sean J (May 4, 2016)

prodigalson,

I agree. I always say "composers are emotional creatures". So I'm not thrilled. But I did edit the comment to be more professional. Thanks for the input!


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## givemenoughrope (May 4, 2016)

The more tweaks and options they put into an already great library like Sable, the closer it will get to the one that rules them all. If they added EVO/8dio-like material it would just be unstoppable.


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## kitekrazy (May 4, 2016)

Could the OP please post a short audio example?


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## prodigalson (May 4, 2016)

Speaking of Sable, With the latest patches I find the legato to be some of the best around. I can do anything I want with it.


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## noxtenebrae17 (May 4, 2016)

I share several sentiments here. Some of the BML releases are fantastic, while some need some work. And I do agree that, in general, all of the libraries need "fast" legato patches. The woods do this okay, but for runs, its still a step behind another popular woodwinds library (which has its own problems as well).

I have written Spitfire telling them I'm not crazy about the re-focus on other libraries, but I do understand their position from a business sense. That said, as a composer, I'm really missing not having the updates and new libraries that were touted so highly when these products came out. I think they all got our hopes up and, while they often time delivered brilliantly, it seems the BML product line has been stuck on the back burner for a while without any sense of when it will make it back to the forefront.

I really do hope Spitfire refocus back to BML and release some updates to fix some of the current instruments. I think its especially important considering the new libraries coming soon from other developers (that may just persuade me over).


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## Sean J (May 4, 2016)

*Here* is an example. Note that I added some close mic in order to improve the results.

Flute a2
Flute Solo (this highlights the ambient problem best)
VSL Flute (just for comparison to highlight why it matters)
Bassoon a2
Bassoon Solo
Horn a2
Horn Solo
Violin I (Mural) (another good example)
Cello (Mural)
Note, it may not be the most obvious, but that ambient envelope blurring, or rather it getting "mushy" (for lack of a better way to put it) basically gets worse when you layer instruments. I'm going at 130BPM. If I tried to mock-up a Williams piece... well I wouldn't try to. 

*Update: *I once called the legato patches "unusable" on Spitfire's facebook page, which Paul Thompson promptly responded to and I have to say they were very informative and helpful. He reached out to someone to get more info and replied with what's below. I just barely remembered it, so sorry for not posting it before.

*"*So here are two things for you to consider. The first is that we're committed to updating our libraries. All of us at Spitfire are working composers so we also want them to be the best available. With every release I'm discovering new techniques for handling the ambient legato and these will be applied to the solo horn in a future update to Vol 1. 

The second is that there's always going to be a limit to how fast you'll be able to convincingly play back the Vol 1 solo horn (apart from the close mic!), even with all of the new programming ideas. That's because of what I mentioned earlier about the timbral change in the instrument when playing very fast passages. The good news is that we've discovered a way of capturing samples in the hall in such a way that allows incredibly fast play back, whilst still retaining the natural acoustic, and a fast legato solo horn is going to be included in Vol 2. It hasn't been programmed yet so I'm unfortunately not able to give you an mp3 example, but here's an early BETA test of the bespoke flute using the same capturing technique.*"*​
The flute example can be heard *here*. It's truly brilliant!

I have to say it's great to reread this. It puts me in my place a bit (which I welcome). Obviously it takes time to develop these and updates only happen with experience and time. Although hopefully that beta was successful and we'll see some new BML volumes sooner than later. As noxtenebrae17 pointed out, other libraries getting released that have versatile legato patches is likely my biggest reason for the impatience. To Spitfire's credit, they were working to address this from the beginning. It's just the non-BML focus I suppose that's the real concern now. Personally, I'd recommend future releases to come with a faster legato by default, with "slow legato" in later volumes. But I can't always have it my way. Again, first-world problems! 

Cheers,
Sean


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## prodigalson (May 4, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> Although hopefully that beta was successful and we'll see some new BML volumes sooner than later.



I dunno. That link is from 5 years ago. If this new technique hasn't made it into their commercial releases I wouldn't be hold my breath. It's possible that it didn't work out the way they wanted it to and decided to explore other techniques. I'd find it very difficult to imagine they were sitting on this mindblowing, revolutionary legato technique and only using it for their bespoke libraries.

The reality is that ambient legato is really f*cking hard as any developer will tell you and SF happens to be sampling in one of the most colored, ambient rooms in existence. They haven't perfected it yet. Some libraries they nailed it, others not so much.

I have a theory that in fact SF aren't quite as concerned with legato as other developers are. I may be completely wrong and I'm sure someone from SF would disagree but there's a video on their website where Christian says point black that he doesn't bother with legato himself and he doesnt have much time for it. Maybe Paul is the chief advocate for legato over there and I know they have Andy Blaney doing the legato programming (who i hold in high regard), but some developers are super eager to be on the forefront of legato scripting techniques and I wonder if that's just not Spitfire's passion when it comes to their sampling. Though I will say many of the 'playable legato' patches in their newer libraries are really great.

Again, I'm totally just wantonly speculating and I'm sure a rep from SF would be fuming at that suggestion.....


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## Ryan (May 4, 2016)

Hi

I agree with you scoredfilms. Spitfire Audio have been doing a lot of other stuff lately. Releasing more electro acoustical sample libraries etc. And now with the upcoming Bernard H. libraries and other stuff, I think it's way ahead to get a update to the BML range. They just have to much up their sleeves at the moment, I think  

I remember that I also got that Flute example 4 years ago, regarding questions about fast playing and upcoming releases. That was at a time I was into buying a lot of orchestral samples, and SA was definitely a winner after I got that example and hearing walkthroughs and demos. Now, I have stopped to purchase new libraries from SA until I get some serious updates to some of the BML range. There's still a lot of problems with the low brass (that I actually addressed in a email to Paul 3 years ago), tuning, ambient crazy stuff with the legato etc. same with the bones, trumpets, woods.

Anyway: No harm to Spitfire Audio. I still use their samples when working everyday and I love the tone. And for sure, I'm really glad that I invested in their libraries.

Best
Ryan


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## EvilDragon (May 5, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> *Update: *I once called the legato patches "unusable" on Spitfire's facebook page, which Paul Thompson promptly responded to and I have to say they were very informative and helpful. He reached out to someone to get more info and replied with what's below. I just barely remembered it, so sorry for not posting it before.
> 
> *"*So here are two things for you to consider. The first is that we're committed to updating our libraries. All of us at Spitfire are working composers so we also want them to be the best available. With every release I'm discovering new techniques for handling the ambient legato and these will be applied to the solo horn in a future update to Vol 1.
> 
> The second is that there's always going to be a limit to how fast you'll be able to convincingly play back the Vol 1 solo horn (apart from the close mic!), even with all of the new programming ideas. That's because of what I mentioned earlier about the timbral change in the instrument when playing very fast passages. The good news is that we've discovered a way of capturing samples in the hall in such a way that allows incredibly fast play back, whilst still retaining the natural acoustic, and a fast legato solo horn is going to be included in Vol 2. It hasn't been programmed yet so I'm unfortunately not able to give you an mp3 example, but here's an early BETA test of the bespoke flute using the same capturing technique.*"*




Paul never *promised *when updates will happen here. He just said that things will happen "in a future update". There was no timeframe ever specified. Likewise, it's not a *promise* of a faster legato (or committing to a definitive timeframe, again), unless you have a weird way of reading into things that are written. Things will happen at their own pace and when Spitfire deems it feasible. Remember how expensive it actually is to record at AIR? And right now it's not even possible to record there since there's construction work happening around it, AFAIK...

As for non-BML progress happening now, there might be a very good and a very real reason for it. Think about it for a bit.

As for the Mural vol 3 runs patch... mr. Blaney shows in his demo that it's just as high-quality as the rest of what SFA is doing, I would say. So it's obviously possible to have it sound great...

BTW Spitfire did 17 updates in 2015, more than any other sample library developer (no disrespect to them). This is an easily verifiable fact (http://blake.so/spitfire/updates/).


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## vicontrolu (May 5, 2016)

I completely agree with the OP. The examples posted here show some major flaws. Considering the price tag of the library its really surprising one cant write convincing moderate-fast speed legato phrases. 

Anyway this isnt just happening with Spitfire, almost every dev do this in some way or another.


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## Sean J (May 5, 2016)

Ryan,

I think I know what you mean by "crazy stuff". I suspect most of it relates to the KSP script. Either way, Legato especially can be inconsistent and temperamental at times. It's probably the only patch I have any kind of issues with. Although to be fair, I haven't had to email their support in some time about it. I don't bother them over "fluke" issues that are rare. So it's not as common for me anymore.

EvilDragon,

I agree with you and appreciate the time it takes, hall availability, etc. For the record, I signed the petition and send emails! There be idiots in this world we live in!

That said, *legato is easily the most fundamental articulation in any orchestral library*. Something about playing melodic lines makes that obvious. Last I checked, that only accounted for the vast majority of orchestral music ever written.  An instrument is a tool of texture of course. But all reasons aside, this is still a tremendously consequential limitation for such a brilliant library at it's price range. And that isn't overstating it even slightly IMO. It may not be the first thing Spitfire wants to read. But objectively speaking, it's the truth. *Quite frankly, I believe a faster legato should be a free update. Innovation and expanding the instrument is one thing. But something the instrument really needed on the initial release? Their own update philosophy seems to lend to that IMO.*

And if doesn't, Spitfire has a bigger problem: other libraries.

*A friend recently let me try Berlin & Cinebrass. The legatos are great at slow, moderate, and fast speeds (even very fast in plenty of cases). What's more, they added a free new legato patch made from new recordings along with Capsule 2. They did just because they weren't happy with what was released before. So again, with Spitfire's own update philosophy, I have to say what was promised even isn't holding up to what others are doing at the moment. They may have very fair unspoken reasons. But IMHO it's still worth bringing this problem into the light of discussion.* It at very least keeps them aware. That doesn't mean I don't respect them. I do! Their work is utterly brilliant! But all of us need open and honest feedback at times. I can't tell you how many times I've needed other people to keep me in check. It truly helps, as long as it's good spirited anyway.

Bold not to emphasize but connect what I feel highlights my underlying justification of the timeliness of my post. That seemed to be the primary point you were trying to make. For the record, I'm not defensive toward you at all. Again, I agree with what you said completely. I just believe the concern here is still relevant. And btw, thanks for the link. I was't aware of it before.

vicontrolu,

I agree that other libraries face the same challenges. But given the previous paragraph, I think they've done well to address them since. I believe Spitfire has done tremendous updates as well and deserve to be recognized for it. They rock, really! Just... not with legato... yet. lol IMO, that's all great news either way. I like to see people pushing the envelope. And I'm not just talking about attack and release. That's easily my worst pun of the year.


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## rottoy (May 5, 2016)

I would really like to see what the behind-closed-doors Bespoke strings can pull off, since it was mentioned in this thread.


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## Sean J (May 5, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> I dunno. That link is from 5 years ago. If this new technique hasn't made it into their commercial releases I wouldn't be hold my breath... I'd find it very difficult to imagine they were sitting on this mindblowing, revolutionary legato technique and only using it for their bespoke libraries...
> 
> ...I have a theory that in fact SF aren't quite as concerned with legato as other developers are. I may be completely wrong and I'm sure someone from SF would disagree but there's a video on their website where Christian says point black that he doesn't bother with legato himself and he doesnt have much time for it.



And all hope is lost... lol No, I see your point. It's certainly possible. While they've said they are dedicated to their libraries, and use their libraries, there may only be one internal voice wanting and improvement here and the rest may not care. Or they may care, but not be able to do anything about it at the moment. The possibilities are endless, so speculating as to "why" would be just as endless.

I just hope they respond with some hopeful news about plans to address this. Even if I have to wait another year, I'd rather hear that and live with what I have for now, as opposed to buying other libraries and finding out a month later that Spitfire releases an update to address this. I'd be fuming.


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## Altine Jackson (May 5, 2016)

I'm not a spitfire user so I don't have a horse in this race either way, but I'd advise against using (most) Cinesamples libraries as an example for perfect legato programming at all tempos. With legato, Cinebrass and Cinestrings are at their best in slow to medium tempos. When you get to fast passages, Cinestrings in particular begins to fall apart. It doesn't have that "mushy" sound like your spitfire examples, but it certainly doesn't sound great.

I would agree that Orchestral Tools' legato generally fairs well in faster passages and if nothing else they often have decent to great sounding playable runs patches.


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## chrysshawk (May 5, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> As for non-BML progress happening now, there might be a very good and a very real reason for it. Think about it for a bit.
> 
> BTW Spitfire did 17 updates in 2015, more than any other sample library developer (no disrespect to them). This is an easily verifiable fact (http://blake.so/spitfire/updates/).



1. In general, lack of progress or mention thereof is certainly something I have thought of for a looooong time, but I do not equate that to mean that anything at all is going to happen.
2. Sure they did updates. But (a) updates were severely needed bug fixes, and (b) severe issues remain. (c) Many of these updates were in fact just the customer finally getting the full product s/he paid for (as in the case of additional mica etc)


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## Simon Ravn (May 5, 2016)

I still use the bespoke libraries from time to time, but that is mainly because of the sound of it, not because of the legato. The legato implementation is pretty basic compared to Spitfire's commercial libraries. At least for the strings, I don't own the woods or brass. So it's not like SF are "keeping the best to themselves" in this regard.


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## Sean J (May 5, 2016)

rottoy said:


> I would really like to see what the behind-closed-doors Bespoke strings can pull off, since it was mentioned in this thread.



Bespoke Strings Example: 

Not the best example for the context of this thread, but it's something. The best comparison would probably be the Bespoke flute vs the BML flute comparison I offered above.

Altine, I agree about Cinestrings. And I suppose I agree about Cinebrass too. As a brass and wood player, I certainly didn't think it was perfect. Just by comparison alone it was far more speed-friendly. Mushy just kills my soul a bit.  And I agree about Berlin. I figure Berlin and Sable together would likely be one way of getting faster strings. Although the BML range in general just needs an improvement here in order to be more generally relevant and useful. As of now, it's just not practical for even moderate usage. That applies to Mural, solo flute, and well... most of it. Close mics help a bit if that's right for what you're doing. But I tend to go with a mixture of close and tree. It just sounds better to me. But the second I do, legato suffers. And thus, a thread is born.


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## rottoy (May 5, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> Bespoke Strings Example:
> 
> Not the best example for the context of this thread, but it's something. The best comparison would probably be the Bespoke flute vs the BML flute comparison I offered above.
> 
> Altine, I agree about Cinestrings. And I suppose I agree about Cinebrass too. As a brass and wood player, I certainly didn't think it was perfect. Just by comparison alone it was far more speed-friendly. Mushy just kills my soul a bit.  And I agree about Berlin. I figure Berlin and Sable together would likely be one way of getting faster strings. Although the BML range in general just needs an improvement here in order to be more generally relevant and useful. As of now, it's just not practical for even moderate usage. That applies to Mural, solo flute, and well... most of it. Close mics help a bit if that's right for what you're doing. But I tend to go with a mixture of close and tree. It just sounds better to me. But the second I do, legato suffers. And thus, a thread is born.



I have heard that one, but I was wondering if there were any other examples of the strings.
But I would assume anyone who's part of the Bespoke program is forbidden to post any of their own demos?
Man, I wish I would've had the dough (and the talent) to have partaken in that program when it was available. 

The Bespoke stuff sound absolutely gorgeous.


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## Altine Jackson (May 5, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> Altine, I agree about Cinestrings. And I suppose I agree about Cinebrass too. As a brass and wood player, I certainly didn't think it was perfect. Just by comparison alone it was far more speed-friendly. Mushy just kills my soul a bit.



Fair enough! I would agree that Cinebrass and Cinestrings do fare better at the tempos you posted earlier in the thread. My point was more that while Cinebrass and Cinestrings are _better_ at faster tempos than many Spitfire libraries, I wouldn't like to see those libraries used as an example of the standard all others should be held to. I know more than a few other members have been frustrated by Cinestrings' legato in particular, at certain tempos.

Though for the record, when playing at a tempo that works for it, I do think Cinestrings is a bit underrated around here. (Says the hypocrite that has replaced it nearly fully with Hollywood Strings... )


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## prodigalson (May 5, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> While they've said they are dedicated to their libraries, and use their libraries, there may only be one internal voice wanting and improvement here and the rest may not care.



I never suggested that Christian or anyone over there dont care about their libraries or don't use them, thats ridiculous. I was simply suggesting that all developers are different and have different passions, priorities and goals with their libraries which is a very very good thing, I find their unique, producer portfolio and non-BML libraries as useful as the BML ones. And those different priorities are going to influence where they invest their attention and time. 

MAYBE.


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## ryanstrong (May 5, 2016)

Sable to me is the gold standard, and any update to it would be icing on the cake for me. BUT... BML Brass for me is mostly unusable. I mean it works but it's so smeary, I have to do a lot of EQing, and to what someone mentioned earlier there are weird artifacts, and some poor scripting. Thought I could count on it as my main brass library but CineBrass is still a gold standard for brass.


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## JohnG (May 5, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> legato is easily the most fundamental articulation in any orchestral library



I disagree categorically with the idea that legato is "the most fundamental" or even "fundamental." I think far too much is made of legato in sample libraries and two major developers privately agreed with me. One of them (not Spitfire) actually laughed at it. Most of the libraries try to include it now but it's often pretty unconvincing to me.

Legato is ok of course; sometimes it's nice to have in a spot or two, but most of the time I find it challenging to control and actually rather intrusive. This is true especially in fast passages where, if it's noticeable at all, it's often noticeable in a bad way.

There are other issues I'd far rather see addressed than legato. Fixing legato is at the very bottom of my list, if it's even on it at all.


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## Simon Ravn (May 5, 2016)

I agree with John. So many great things have been done with samples way before the "legato era".


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## Christof (May 5, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> Spitfire,
> 
> *When are we getting legato updates? We need a reasonable legato!*


This might not be the most polite way to start an open letter.
What about: "Dear Spitfire team, thank you so much for you efforts in developing one of the best sample libraries on the market.Lately I have discovered some serious issues concerning your legato patches....."
Do you talk like that to your film director or producer as well?
Politeness and diplomacy are one of the most demanded goods in business.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (May 5, 2016)

JohnG said:


> There are other issues I'd far rather see addressed than legato.



like what?


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## Vischebaste (May 5, 2016)

Christof said:


> This might not be the most polite way to start an open letter.
> What about: "Dear Spitfire team, thank you so much for you efforts in developing one of the best sample libraries on the market.Lately I have discovered some serious issues concerning your legato patches....."
> Do you talk like that to your film director or producer as well?
> Politeness and diplomacy are one of the most demanded goods in business.



That example sounds closer to obsequious than to polite. Anyway, how much more polite and diplomatic do you want him to be?:

"Look, I've loved Spitfire from the release of Albion. I still do. I'm practically a free walking advertisement for you guys usually."

"I'll gladly voice that Spitfire is the best sounding sample library out there IMO. Lyndhurst is a gem for the music world."

"A friend of mine complains about their prices all the time. I've never had too large a complaint about it, but I've always been a bit of a Spitfire fanboy, so I've easily been prejudiced. This really is my only real complaint. The only other things I haven't liked are a lack of inner voices, full instrument ranges, and the lack of it all being free. First world problems"

"But I can't always have it my way. Again, first-world problems!"

"I agree with you and appreciate the time it takes, hall availability, etc. For the record, I signed the petition and send emails! There be idiots in this world we live in!"

"I think they've done well to address them since. I believe Spitfire has done tremendous updates as well and deserve to be recognized for it. They rock, really! Just... not with legato... yet. lol IMO, that's all great news either way."


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 5, 2016)

When I first read the thread, my first thought was: man, it's incredible how much people are apparently expected to tiptoe around this stuff. Ridiculous!


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## prodigalson (May 5, 2016)

Vischebaste said:


> That example sounds closer to obsequious than to polite. Anyway, how much more polite and diplomatic do you want him to be?:
> 
> "Look, I've loved Spitfire from the release of Albion. I still do. I'm practically a free walking advertisement for you guys usually."
> 
> ...



To be fair, the OP has edited the original post to remove the sarcastic and snide comments. The original was a lot different with references to "drunk cellists" and "hack job" patches etc etc.


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## Ashermusic (May 5, 2016)

I think all developers mean to meet those updates but as John Lennon said, life is what happens to you when you are busy making other plans. 

When you decide whether or not to start with a library, the wise approach is to ask yourself " if it never gets any better than this, does it bring enough to the table?" All the rest is just talk until it does or does not happen.


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## Vischebaste (May 5, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> To be fair, the OP has edited the original post to remove the sarcastic and snide comments. The original was a lot different with references to "drunk cellists" and "hack job" patches etc etc.



Ok, fair enough, I didn't see that version. The version that is currently on display looks fine though, if anything it throws in more compliments than are necessary (at least, IMO).


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## Sean J (May 5, 2016)

Christof, my attitude is to help, not offend. I don't believe the current legato isn't a justifiable vol-1 legato in context of the current sample market. My thought here is that the need for some form of update is unavoidably needed and that my needs especially align with it. So that's what I mean to express.

Each director I've worked with recommended me to the next job, and the last one has seen me get several more paid jobs and wants to work with me again on a bigger film. So honestly, I believe I strike a good balance. I'll admit I didn't always. As I said, composers are emotional creatures. But I've come to see the value in being open and honest. Most people who meet me in person (aka: not an online forum) tend to see right past my limited speaking skills and know I'm about seeing good results surface. It may take me 3 tries to say it the right way. But it used to take 5 tries.  The only defensive point I want to make is that it's hard to convey any of that online. So I'd rather find points of agreement than disagreement. That is a bit tiptoe-ish... well I guess it's completely tiptoe-ish. lol Hey, we all got to start somewhere. I'm at least not as insecure anymore. I suppose the tip-toeing comes out of wanting to show respect. I believe people ought to treat each other well and that belief has to start with my own participation in it.

I just default to communicating rather bluntly sometimes cause, well... it's easier. Now that we've all had a Kumbaya therapy session together, how about we get back to the samples? LOL


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## HaidenDvim (May 5, 2016)

JohnG said:


> I disagree categorically with the idea that legato is "the most fundamental" or even "fundamental." I think far too much is made of legato in sample libraries and two major developers privately agreed with me. One of them (not Spitfire) actually laughed at it. Most of the libraries try to include it now but it's often pretty unconvincing to me.
> 
> Legato is ok of course; sometimes it's nice to have in a spot or two, but most of the time I find it challenging to control and actually rather intrusive. This is true especially in fast passages where, if it's noticeable at all, it's often noticeable in a bad way.
> 
> There are other issues I'd far rather see addressed than legato. Fixing legato is at the very bottom of my list, if it's even on it at all.




I complete disagree with this. It is the age of sample libraries and because of that and the limitations of realism a.k.a that composition has become so dumb down over the last decade. The age of Zimmer staccato or spiccato ostinato's needs to end and get back to melody writing where strings actually soar again and are not robotic rhythmic features. I think companies that are pushing for "True Legato" actually understand this. 90% of music these days is Bombastic beasts (Though I admit I love these at times) but the scores I truly love are the scores with true melody. If you look at real scores, the slur over the notes is legato or its just marked. Staccato or Spiccato is the only thing that has been easy to replicate in samples. I want more composers to be able to create the next Close encounters of the Third Kind, or E.T or any of the Masters these days and past. 

With the ever changing market and how hard it is to actually get budget for a real orchestra our standards are dropping to meet that of the digital world. I applaud those who take a stand and look for a standard. Even more so from a company whos mantra is "The best sampling Library in the world"...well I am sure its not the mantra, but the way people talk about them, it might as well be.

That is my 2-cents.


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## Sean J (May 5, 2016)

And I'll admit prodigalson is right. I did edit the initial post.

I said "A drunk cellist in the greatest hall in the world doesn't really do the job." The *only* thing I meant by it was that "if it sounds sloppy, the rest of the quality and a beautiful hall doesn't do it much good". But again, do the words always come out right the first time around? No. And the hack job comment was about the mural 3 runs. From what I understand, it quite literally was a hack job rather than a recording of a true fast performance. So I wasn't really sure of another way of putting it. I don't mind bringing those back into light as I can now better articulate what I mean in a way that is more helpful, rather than abrasive. This is why I prefer talking to people in person. Less hassle!

Now that it's on my mind, here's some food for thought about effective collaboration and communicating:

In the end we can all be just as right as we want to be. That's why different libraries get made in the first place. Everyone has something to bring to the table. Anyone who doesn't like that can produce, direct, compose, and cast in their own films with samples they recorded and performed themselves.  Or you can just do what I do. Collaborate effectively on films and write your own music on the side just to do whatever you want sometimes. And when you pay for a company that in fact made a promise, just remind them about it sometimes if it takes a while to get there. Does any of that cause the world to stop spinning? I sure hope not! Having an opinion doesn't mean you can't collaborate. If anything, it's the only way you honestly can. Bring your ideas to the table and listen to others. Then build your own table sometimes. It's not that hard really.

And here I tried to stay on topic. *For shame!*

Cheers,
Sean


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## JohnG (May 5, 2016)

HaidenDvim said:


> get back to melody writing where strings actually soar again and are not robotic rhythmic features. I think companies that are pushing for "True Legato" actually understand this. 90% of music these days is Bombastic beasts (Though I admit I love these at times) but the scores I truly love are the scores with true melody. If you look at real scores, the slur over the notes is legato or its just marked.



Your opinion matters; if that's what you like, right on!! 

That said, I would gently point out that the Big Melody is not in line with what's in demand today for most media music and not just ostinato-based material. Most decision-makers in media seem to prefer music that is not intrusive in the way that melody, inevitably, intrudes. I don't hear directors clamouring for melody, especially "soaring" melody (though I am finishing a film in which they DID!!!) 

I see you are decrying the current taste out there, and fair enough.

Even so, even if you love Rachmaninoff or a very expressive style of playing, I don't agree that a lot of legato is what makes samples sound like the real thing, especially because that effect in samples often sounds perilously close to portamento. For full disclosure, I really can't stand portamento and tell the players not to do it 99% of the time, but naturally I acknowledge that that's again a matter of taste and opinion, not objective fact. Nevertheless, as implemented, most legato in most sample libraries is too obvious and heavy-handed for my taste.

Accordingly, I rank what we're getting as "legato" far, far down my list of what makes a sampled piece sound musical.

I started writing long before there were any good-sounding samples at all and as a result had the good fortune to become familiar with what real players sound like. Plus I get to sing every week in a choir, so live performance (thankfully) is part of my life. I don't think that legato -- at least as it has come to be in sample libraries -- is either successful or tasteful most of the time.


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## re-peat (May 5, 2016)

rottoy said:


> I have heard that one, but I was wondering if there were any other examples of the strings.
> But I would assume anyone who's part of the Bespoke program is forbidden to post any of their own demos?
> Man, I wish I would've had the dough (and the talent) to have partaken in that program when it was available.
> The Bespoke stuff sound absolutely gorgeous.



Spitfire's Bespoke Strings is not "the mythical library that sounds better than, or is superior to everything else", Rottoy. It is good, certainly, and some of it is timbrally more to my liking than Sable, the Albions and certainly Mural (a timbre that just doesn't click with me), but if they were to release the Bespokes today — which would require quite a bit of extra work, because development of the library was abandonned long before it was finished (I guess because Spitfire had meanwhile gotten its first taste, in the shape of Albion's success, of the pleasures that come with more commercially-rewarding ventures ) —, I'm 100% sure that most people would be seriously underwhelmed. As in: "Is that all it is?".

The Bespokes, when looked at today, are more of a portfolio of first, second and third drafts for things to come. A sort of laboratory if you like, which allowed the Spitfire team to master their craft, and experiment with various techniques regarding recording, implementing legato and crossfading and such.
As I said, it's a pretty good library, containing plenty of great timbres (still the best symphonic pizzicati in existence, as far as I'm concerned), but if released today, even if it were finished, no one in his/her right mind would consider the Bespokes as a library the equal of, let alone superior to, Sable or, if you like that kind of sound: Mural. (Certainly not in the legato department which, in the Bespokes, is still very much 'a feature in development'.)

I never regretted buying them — absolutely not, and I've used, and still use the Bespokes more than any other Spitfire library, Sable excepted — though I have to admit struggling a bit with feelings of disappointment the moment it became clear that Spitfire had said farewell to this project and, as such, to the people who, by purchasing the library, invested soooo much in the company. Not that I ever felt entitled to be treated as a special client, but at the very least, it would have been nice to see my €5140 library finished.

And adding irritation to disappointment, is the fact that the library is locked as well. And there happen to be quite a lot of little flaws and annoying things in there — noises, ticks, clicks (most of them the result of careless sample-trimming) — which I could easily correct, if only I had access to the samples, but I haven't. And when I asked if it would be possible to open the library — a library which, after all, was no longer receiving any attention from its developer anyway — in order to correct some of the most distracting imperfections and make the library more useful to me, the answer was: "Sorry, but no can do." That was the day when some (not much, just a little) of my Spitfire-affection and -loyalty went "Poof!".

Here's *a little example of the Bespoke Celli & Basses spiccati*. No finesse in my programming here, just a quick, blunt example of how they sound. I think most people will hear why I quite like the sound: (1) it sounds like strings (not all string libraries do) and (2) it's got grit and bite but in quite a different way than most other libraries achieve those things. 
But I don't doubt you'll also hear those dozens and dozens of little, and not so little ticks and clicks all over the place. That's those poorly trimmed samples I was talking about. And the only way I can avoid those at the moment is by changing the attack of the samples, which, of course, also sacrifices plenty of what I don't want to sacrifice ...
(Or, alternatively, I could take the bounced audio file into an audio editor and manually edit all those ticks and clicks out).

_


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## rottoy (May 5, 2016)

re-peat said:


> Spitfire's Bespoke Strings is not "the mythical library that sounds better than, or is superior to everything else", Rottoy. It is good, certainly, and some of it is timbrally more to my liking than Sable, the Albions and certainly Mural (a timbre that just doesn't click with me), but if they were to release the Bespokes today — which would require quite a bit of extra work, because development of the library was abandonned long before it was finished (I guess because Spitfire had meanwhile gotten its first taste, in the shape of Albion's success, of the pleasures that come with more commercially-rewarding ventures ) —, I'm 100% sure that most people would be seriously underwhelmed. As in: "Is that all it is?".
> 
> The Bespokes, when looked at today, are more of a portfolio of first, second and third drafts for things to come. A sort of laboratory if you like, which allowed the Spitfire team to master their craft, and experiment with various techniques regarding recording, implementing legato and crossfading and such.
> As I said, it's a pretty good library, containing plenty of great timbres (still the best symphonic pizzicati in existence, as far as I'm concerned), but if released today, even if it were finished, no one in his/her right mind would consider the Bespokes as a library the equal of, let alone superior to, Sable or, if you like that kind of sound: Mural. (Certainly not in the legato department which, in the Bespokes, is still very much 'a feature in development'.)
> ...


Even though I don't like it when you infer certain things into the written word, Piet,
I do appreciate your detailed reply in regards to the Bespoke Strings and your experience of them!

You just intrigued me more by talking about the pizz - 
I have also found most symphonic pizzicato patches not timbrally to my liking (or worse, edited to death).

Could you do a quick sketch of those too?


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## re-peat (May 5, 2016)

rottoy said:


> Could you do a quick sketch of those too?



Here's *a little something with the Bespoke pizzicati*, Rottoy.
(This example is over three years old, by the way — I prepared it for some pizzicati-related thread we had at the time.)

Sorry about the inferring, by the way. Didn't intend to. It's just that there's this thing going round, today a bit less than a few years ago perhaps, that the Bespokes is some super-mega-deluxe-no-resources-spared-hyperrealistic and legendary miracle of an elite strings library. Which isn't quite the case.

_


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## Lawson. (May 5, 2016)

re-peat said:


> Here's *a little something with the Bespoke pizzicati*, Rottoy.
> (This example is over three years old, by the way — I prepared it for some pizzicati-related thread we had at the time.)
> 
> Sorry about the inferring, by the way. Didn't intend to. It's just that there's this thing going round, today a bit less than a few years ago perhaps, that the Bespokes is some super-mega-deluxe-no-resources-spared-hyperrealistic and legendary miracle of an elite strings library. Which isn't quite the case.
> ...



Wow wow wow wow I am in disbelief. I swear if I didn't know any better I'd think those were real. And I'm a string player, too!


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## rottoy (May 5, 2016)

re-peat said:


> Here's *a little something with the Bespoke pizzicati*, Rottoy.
> (This example is over three years old, by the way — I prepared it for some pizzicati-related thread we had at the time.)
> 
> Sorry about the inferring, by the way. Didn't intend to. It's just that there's this thing going round, today a bit less than a few years ago perhaps, that the Bespokes is some super-mega-deluxe-no-resources-spared-hyperrealistic and legendary miracle of an elite strings library. Which isn't quite the case.
> ...


It's quite alright. Thank you very much for your soundbites!
Getting a peek behind the curtain of these "exclusive" closed off libraries is always interesting IMO, 
perhaps especially when it's not all you've hyped it up to be.


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## cc64 (May 5, 2016)

Hi Piet,

i tried to PM you but the system won't let me so here's what i wrote:

hope you are well!

Just for fun, since i've had these issues with many other developers i bought RX4 Advanced.

Here's a link to your file that i processed through Declick. It took 30seconds, it may not be perfect because i didn't spend much times on the available parameters and different algorithms... But i can tell you that it has paid itself a long time ago ; )

Let me know what you think and if you want me to retest it with different settings or material for you.

À bientôt!

Claude

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mgarleagqynkmsk/SB_SpitBspk_ChmbrCellBass RX4 Declick.wav?dl=0


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## Rodney Money (May 5, 2016)

re-peat said:


> €5140


Goodness! What year was this?


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## HaidenDvim (May 5, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Your opinion matters; if that's what you like, right on!!
> 
> That said, I would gently point out that the Big Melody is not in line with what's in demand today for most media music and not just ostinato-based material. Most decision-makers in media seem to prefer music that is not intrusive in the way that melody, inevitably, intrudes. I don't hear directors clamouring for melody, especially "soaring" melody (though I am finishing a film in which they DID!!!)
> 
> ...




That makes sense to me and I agree, to many directors are drawing that card. Also freaking awesome that you found a director wanting more!!


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## re-peat (May 5, 2016)

cc64 said:


> Here's a link to your file that i processed through Declick. It took 30seconds, it may not be perfect because i didn't spend much times on the available parameters and different algorithms... But i can tell you that it has paid itself a long time ago. Let me know what you think (...)



*Claude*, that is a _serious_ improvement on the no-clicks-front, isn’t it? They’re almost all gone! Impressive. And much appreciated, you doing this. (There are still a couple of brusquely trimmed attacks in some of the samples though, but that is something which, I guess, Declicker can’t do much about.)

All is well, by the way. Very well. With you too, I hope?

(I wasn’t aware of the PM-problem, by the way. It does shed some light on the fact that I haven’t received *any* PM's since I was last banned. I sent out a few PM’s of my own over the past few months — at least, I assumed I did — but never got a reply either.)

_


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## jononotbono (May 5, 2016)

Those sound clips are great. The Pizzicato is amazing! Thanks for sharing them.


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## doctornine (May 5, 2016)

Sense of Humour ALERT !!!! To quote Voi Vod : 

"Why don't you believe on it
You know what we want
Go sh*t ! I'm not a fish"


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 5, 2016)

doctornine said:


> Sense of Humour ALERT !!!! To quote Voi Vod :
> 
> "Why don't you believe on it
> You know what we want
> Go sh*t ! I'm not a fish"



Didn't expect anyone here to reference that classic bit of franco-canadian poetry


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## higgs (May 5, 2016)

You have to know that Paul and Christian are paying at least _some_ attention to VI right now - this thread sort of tilts the scale a bit 
towards the opposite side of the "OMG I'm totally psyched about EVO 3!" thread for the release today.

I imagine the thoughts they might be having...."I can't wait to see if the community is excited about the new EVO - They ARE! But wait...ugh, they're also shi++ing on our legato." So you see, it's at best a break-even emotional day for them.


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## RiffWraith (May 5, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> The legacy Albion library has non-existent tails on their staccato.



What patches, specifically? I have tails in my Albion Legacy stac patches....


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## jononotbono (May 5, 2016)

I personally can't wait till I can afford to get both Sable and Mural. Love the sound of them both. One at a time I think!


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## Rodney Money (May 5, 2016)

higgs said:


> You have to know that Paul and Christian are paying at least _some_ attention to VI right now - this thread sort of tilts the scale a bit
> towards the opposite side of the "OMG I'm totally psyched about EVO 3!" thread for the release today.
> 
> I imagine the thoughts they might be having...."I can't wait to see if the community is excited about the new EVO - They ARE! But wait...ugh, they're also shi++ing on our legato." So you see, it's at best a break-even emotional day for them.


Bring balance to the force.


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## ryanstrong (May 5, 2016)

re-peat said:


> *Claude*, that is a _serious_ improvement on the no-clicks-front, isn’t it? They’re almost all gone! Impressive. And much appreciated, you doing this. (There are still a couple of brusquely trimmed attacks in some of the samples though, but that is something which, I guess, Declicker can’t do much about.)
> 
> All is well, by the way. Very well. With you too, I hope?
> 
> ...


Nice to see you around again @re-peat - didn't think you'd ever be back...


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## Sean J (May 5, 2016)

RiffWraith said:


> What patches, specifically? I have tails in my Albion Legacy stac patches....



The Brass Mid patch (Horns & Bones) staccatos, I believe just the higher velocity if memory serves me right. All but 1 RR were recorded where they played the notes too close together for the hall to really tail off. I mean, I fixed it. So no worries. I only meant that I see the type of inconsistencies. To be fair to Spitfire, every library faces such issues. We are after all, human beings.


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## Sean J (May 5, 2016)

higgs said:


> You have to know that Paul and Christian are paying at least _some_ attention to VI right now... it's at best a break-even emotional day for them.





Rodney Money said:


> Bring balance to the force.



I imagine they are still happy about Evo today. And they should be. It's not my thing, but bringing balance to the force is needed and I'm fine tilting it a bit. Although I've always wanted a Jedi robe... so I guess that would make Paul and Christian Sith Lords (cool ones, of course). The real question is, which one is the apprentice?


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## higgs (May 5, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> I imagine they are still happy about Evo today. And they should be. It's not my thing...



Now we're on to attacking the EVO's too? When does it end?! When will we let up?! The humanity!


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## higgs (May 5, 2016)

Sorry, I couldn't resist that one - the force is _not_ strong with me.


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## AllanH (May 5, 2016)

It does seem as if Spitfire has ed-emphasized the pure orchestral libraries. Maybe they simply need to set expectations regarding how much upgrading they intend to do and not promise to many things no matter how excited they may when releasing. I've only invested in a few Albions and some Sable and that has been "as advertised".


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 5, 2016)

higgs said:


> I imagine the thoughts they might be having...."I can't wait to see if the community is excited about the new EVO - They ARE! But wait...ugh, they're also shi++ing on our legato." So you see, it's at best a break-even emotional day for them.



Ah jeez, them poor things ... they're big boys and I'm sure they'll manage.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2016)

They ARE managing. They're staying out of non-commercial discussion threads, which was probably the smart play all along.


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## FriFlo (May 6, 2016)

NYC Composer said:


> They ARE managing. They're staying out of non-commercial discussion threads, which was probably the smart play all along.


Yes it was!


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## Rodney Money (May 6, 2016)

Is this the 2nd or 3rd "Open Letter to Spitfire" thread this year?


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## Sean J (May 6, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Is this the 2nd or 3rd "Open Letter to Spitfire" thread this year?



Ah, so I did search and look at previous threads before this one before posting. I just didn't happen to see one already on legato until you begged the question. So yes. I believe this is the 2nd request about this. Here I inquire about promises, bespoke legato scripts, as well as the future of the BML range. So the purpose here is very different.

Although if you're merely remarking on how frequent an issue it is, I've seen many more people complain about the legato on plenty of other forums. So I'd say this has been well voiced for some time now. I just didn't think it had been on here, and Spitfire suggested I post feedback here in a support ticket. I still have in tickets, but figured here would be best to make sure the right folks get it.


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## tonaliszt (May 6, 2016)

Since Berlin Strings was mentioned as having a good legato system, I feel like it is important to mention that the "agile" legato in Berlin Strings is not "true" legato, but a scripted legato. Considering the amount of time it takes to record legato transitions, I feel that putting a scripted legato in the Spitfire instruments would not be a bad thing at all.


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## Rodney Money (May 6, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> Ah, so I did search and look at previous threads before this one before posting. I just didn't happen to see one already on legato until you begged the question. So yes. I believe this is the 2nd request about this. Here I inquire about promises, bespoke legato scripts, as well as the future of the BML range. So the purpose here is very different.
> 
> Although if you're merely remarking on how frequent an issue it is, I've seen many more people complain about the legato on plenty of other forums. So I'd say this has been well voiced for some time now. I just didn't think it had been on here, and Spitfire suggested I post feedback here in a support ticket. I still have in tickets, but figured here would be best to make sure the right folks get it.


Spitfire fans are so passionate. Since I've been here I've never seen an "Open Letter to Cinesamples," for example. I even recall one fateful member temporarily getting banned, but I don't want to get into that, lol.


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## mc_deli (May 6, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Spitfire fans are so passionate. Since I've been here I've never seen an "Open Letter to Cinesamples," for example. I even recall one fateful member temporarily getting banned, but I don't want to get into that, lol.


There you go Rodders, arranged that for you:
http://vi-control.net/community/thr...ples-the-perc-upgrade-for-non-bundlers.53302/


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## chrysshawk (May 6, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Spitfire fans are so passionate. Since I've been here I've never seen an "Open Letter to Cinesamples," for example. I even recall one fateful member temporarily getting banned, but I don't want to get into that, lol.


I think that's because a mix of (a) SF library cost, (b) promised additions to the libraries people have bought, which nobody has a clue of when will be released, and (c) sometimes the sound is very close to be just what one wants, EXCPEPT that one small bug which drives the user crazy, because you can swear somebody put itnthwre just to fvk with you!


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## Rodney Money (May 6, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> There you go Rodders, arranged that for you:
> http://vi-control.net/community/thr...ples-the-perc-upgrade-for-non-bundlers.53302/


There's one!


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## higgs (May 6, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> There you go Rodders, arranged that for you:
> http://vi-control.net/community/thr...ples-the-perc-upgrade-for-non-bundlers.53302/



Woah, that nickname threw me off for a sec! A few of my closest friends call me that - I'm Rod as well, though not a "Rodney." But I do frequently go by "Rodders." This could get confusing.


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## Rodney Money (May 6, 2016)

higgs said:


> Woah, that nickname threw me off for a sec! A few of my closest friends call me that - I'm Rod as well, though not a "Rodney." But I do frequently go by "Rodders." This could get confusing.


I normally go by either Rod by my family, but in reality most people call me Money.


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## higgs (May 6, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> I normally go by either Rod by my family, but in reality most people call me Money.


Yeah, that's a no-brainer! I'd prefer to be called "Money." Or "Bond." That'd be acceptable.


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## rottoy (May 6, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> I normally go by either Rod by my family, but in reality most people call me Money.


What do you do when someone says "Show me the Money!"?


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## RiffWraith (May 6, 2016)

rottoy said:


> What do you do when someone says "Show me the Money!"?



He says:


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## Rodney Money (May 6, 2016)

rottoy said:


> What do you do when someone says "Show me the Money!"?


I tell them, "Go ask my wife."


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## mc_deli (May 6, 2016)

"Don't clap, throw money" was one of my father's favourite's, even at a ticketed show.

OT apologies


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## Sean J (May 6, 2016)

chrysshawk said:


> I think that's because a mix of (a) SF library cost, (b) promised additions to the libraries people have bought, which nobody has a clue of when will be released, and (c) sometimes the sound is very close to be just what one wants, EXCPEPT that one small bug which drives the user crazy, because you can swear somebody put itnthwre just to fvk with you!



If there was ever a way to perfectly sum up an entire thread in few sentences, it's that. lol


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## jamwerks (May 6, 2016)

Wasn't there a promised "ostinato legato" for Sable due out, about a year ago? IINM, they even announced that as a free update, which seemed excessivily nice on their part. They gave away so much free stuff on Sable, this kind of addition could easily be a paid one.

Very strange this absence of Paul and Christian here. They obviously got tired of the bickering; a small part of which was justified (imo). Strange that the Vol II's of BML were announced for 2015, and here we are mid-2016, and still nothing.

Are the stereo mixed available for all the Vol I stuff? No way to understand from their site (as far as I can tell), what the latest version is, nor what mic sets are available??

I'm still missing the hard-attack option for the Low-brass longs! Wasn't it said that the "Fanfare" articulation would be added across the board (it's available on some libraries)?

Nobody from SF wants to post about what's going on on your end, and maybe about future plans?


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## rottoy (May 6, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> Wasn't there a promised "ostinato legato" for Sable due out, about a year ago? IINM, they even announced that as a free update, which seemed excessivily nice on their part. They gave away so much free stuff on Sable, this kind of addition could easily be a paid one.
> 
> Very strange this absence of Paul and Christian here. They obviously got tired of the bickering; a small part of which was justified (imo). Strange that the Vol II's of BML were announced for 2015, and here we are mid-2016, and still nothing.
> 
> ...


The plans for any kind of additions to the BML line were probably 
postponed indefinitely with the construction work being done just outside Lyndhurst Hall.


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## Sean J (May 6, 2016)

rottoy said:


> The plans for any kind of additions to the BML line were probably
> postponed indefinitely with the construction work being done just outside Lyndhurst Hall.



Do we know that it actually went forward after the petition? I've yet to see any kind of update to that effect.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> Very strange this absence of Paul and Christian here.


As previously stated, I don't think it's strange at all. Developers have a few choices-they can spend a large amount of time defending their products in forums, or they can spend it developing. They can hire a designated representative to act as a PR person, but that's pretty costly and still requires time managing that person and preparing statements. Or- they can answer specific concerns through their support system, which IMO is the way to go. If their support system is inefficient and the product is not useable or not to someone's satisfaction, they can decide whether or not to support that company in the future. Or, I suppose, they can complain in forums, which is part of why a "Sample Talk" should exist. However, the constant airing of grievances does not, again IMO, tend to do anything but stiffen the backs of hard working creative people who feel they generally deliver great products.


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## dhlkid (May 7, 2016)

rottoy said:


> The plans for any kind of additions to the BML line were probably
> postponed indefinitely with the construction work being done just outside Lyndhurst Hall.



possible…


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## Ashermusic (May 7, 2016)

NYC Composer said:


> As previously stated, I don't think it's strange at all. Developers have a few choices-they can spend a large amount of time defending their products in forums, or they can spend it developing. They can hire a designated representative to act as a PR person, but that's pretty costly and still requires time managing that person and preparing statements. Or- they can answer specific concerns through their support system, which IMO is the way to go. If their support system is inefficient and the product is not useable or not to someone's satisfaction, they can decide whether or not to support that company in the future. Or, I suppose, they can complain in forums, which is part of why a "Sample Talk" should exist. However, the constant airing of grievances does not, again IMO, tend to do anything but stiffen the backs of hard working creative people who feel they generally deliver great products.



I sometimes think the name of the forum should be changed to Sample Kvetch.


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## rottoy (May 7, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> Do we know that it actually went forward after the petition? I've yet to see any kind of update to that effect.


I recall the petition being WAY too late in the game to have any effect. The plans were already in motion.


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## gpax (May 7, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I sometimes think the name of the forum should be changed to Sample Kvetch.


Indeed, there is a vey fine line here between a so-called open letter, and open season.


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## higgs (May 7, 2016)

gpax said:


> Indeed, there is a vey fine line here between a so-called open letter, and open season.


Nice turn of phrase!


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## tack (May 7, 2016)

In some ways, Spitfire should take all this complaining as a compliment. Nobody would complain so much if their products weren't so expensive, and nobody would buy their expensive products if they weren't so good.

I personally feel it is quite fair to criticize Spitfire for taking so long to address basic quality issues in their expensive libraries, and for not delivering on BML volume twos that they were talking about in 2014 (sometimes even using the present tense!).


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2016)

I agree that it's perfectly fair to have open and sometimes critical discussion. What I find unrealistic is to expect them to jump into every thread and have to address everyone's issues here. If I were a developer, that would make me quite testy.


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## tack (May 7, 2016)

Oh yes, I agree, I think it would be a mistake for them to engage on threads like this.

On the subject of construction near Air studios posing a problem for recording, if that's the case, this would be a perfect time to focus on polishing up their previous products.  I understand that's not especially glamorous or profitable work, but it's necessary to maintain a reputation for quality.


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## JohnG (May 7, 2016)

"reputation for quality"

I just used their samples all over a picture that has 90 minutes of music in it. Spitfire's quality is second to none. The sonic quality, variety of mixes, and the flexibility to manipulate their samples also is second to none and quite a bit better than most.

You can always carry on editing, or adding features. There are some issues with every library I own, I guess. 

That said, if one can't figure out how to make a great sound with their libraries, then the fault is not with Spitfire.


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## gpax (May 7, 2016)

NYC Composer said:


> I agree that it's perfectly fair to have open and sometimes critical discussion. What I find unrealistic is to expect them to jump into every thread and have to address everyone's issues here. If I were a developer, that would make me quite testy.


I totally agree. Forced accountability is unrealistic.

Moreover, I think the survey speaks for itself. To me, it's the tendency to then project onto to what a developer "should" be thinking or feeling, by linking this discussion to a new product release, or the notion that one is bringing balance to what a developer does (or should be doing) whose effectiveness and motives I question.

All too often, there's an implied vindication or even vigilante mentality that begins to emerge, where the goal of gathering a survey - or having that constructive discussion - becomes obscured in an elusive quest to change a particular developer - and its culture. It's sometimes hard for me to discern agenda from sincerity in such endeavors, which I suspect holds true for any intended recipient of a public, open letter, as well.

But can it work? I don't know.

To me, there's a difference (edited) between getting someone's ear, and even being genuinely heard - as frustrating as that can be - and attempting to leverage change by consensus, or, in some instances, publicly calling someone out by name, and hence risk shaming them as well. Now we have two concurrent "open letters" being directed to developers in the forum. IMHO: not a good strategy or idea.

When you parse out the parts of a thread from its whole, particularly for a subject like this which us of interest to many, there is both legitimacy and frankness still. But even if you deleted the entire thread and left only the survey, there's a compelling case for "just the facts, M'am" that could be made.


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## jononotbono (May 7, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Spitfire's quality is second to none. The sonic quality, variety of mixes, and the flexibility to manipulate their samples also is second to none and quite a bit better than most.



Exactly why, if I could afford it, I would buy their Everything bundle as fast as I could whip the Bank Card out!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 7, 2016)

JohnG said:


> "reputation for quality"
> 
> I just used their samples all over a picture that has 90 minutes of music in it. Spitfire's quality is second to none. The sonic quality, variety of mixes, and the flexibility to manipulate their samples also is second to none and quite a bit better than most.
> 
> ...



To be fair: there's a bit of an undertone in this post that could be interpreted as a little personal dig and also as a sly detraction attempt. I don't recall the thread starter criticizing the "sonic quality" of SF libraries at all - in fact, I'm pretty sure he was full of praise for the sound. He also never stated that he couldn't make SF sound good, so ... why bring these things up as if it was about them?

The criticism was towards specific features that SF themselves apparently acknowledged as something that indeed needed some more work, otherwise they would have never presented the prospect of fixes/updates in the first place.


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## tack (May 7, 2016)

JohnG said:


> I just used their samples all over a picture that has 90 minutes of music in it. Spitfire's quality is second to none. The sonic quality, variety of mixes, and the flexibility to manipulate their samples also is second to none and quite a bit better than most.


The textural flexibility with Spitfire, especially their strings, is certainly second to none. By quality I am largely referring to simple things like poorly edited samples (clicks and pops), intonation problems, misbehaving patches (e.g. release trigger wonkiness), improper UACC bindings, etc. I don't think there is a single Spitfire library I own in which I didn't find a very basic issue like the aforementioned within 10-15 minutes of just noodling around.

Much of this can indeed be worked around. Pitch shift for intonation problems. Avoid bad patches (e.g. use stereo or alt mix patches). Write around clicky/poppy samples (use different dynamics or different notes altogether). Switch to longs to avoid a dodgy legato transition. Etc. For me, a high quality library is one in which I don't _have_ to do those things.

That makes it especially frustrating _exactly because_ the sonic quality is otherwise so inspiring.


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## gpax (May 7, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> To be fair: there's a bit of an undertone in this post that could be interpreted as a little personal dig and also as a sly detraction attempt. I don't recall the thread starter criticizing the "sonic quality" of SF libraries at all - in fact, I'm pretty sure he was full of praise for the sound. He also never stated that he couldn't make SF sound good, so ... why bring these things up as if it was about them?
> 
> The criticism was towards specific features that SF themselves apparently acknowledged as something that indeed needed some more work, otherwise they would have never presented the prospect of fixes/updates in the first place.


I certainly understand your response here as well, and would never attempt to speak for another member either. 

But not to belabor the point, the condensed version from my perspective is this: 
A survey is a survey, though there are ways to best frame questions objectively. Threads inviting honest input, and discussions about issues, are the bedrock of this forum, as contentious as they may be at times. 

But publishing an open letter, addressed to a specific party, is an editorial. It implies - and enlists - an agenda, even if motivated by the best of intentions. I'm not sure this is a strategy that fits with the aims of VI-Control itself.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2016)

I've never seen any reason why one shouldn't expect a high standard for sample libraries, some of which are priced in Maserati territory. If free discussion (that includes critical commentary) can't go on, Sample Talk should be renamed "In Praise Of" and heavily moderated.

On the other hand though, I stand by the idea that lengthy, constant screeds will rarely produce the desired result, unless the object is simple venting. Audio examples and rational presentation of obvious problems seem more effective to me.


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## tack (May 7, 2016)

NYC Composer said:


> Audio examples and rational presentation of obvious problems seem more effective to me.


There are quite some number of threads on this specific topic, so I suppose my posts on this thread are a more general criticism. I know I report all such issues to Spitfire straightaway. I always get a prompt and friendly response. I still have issues reported and acknowledged in the past 1.5 years that haven't been fixed.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2016)

Sorry, my post wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular. It is my general feeling.


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## Coincidental (May 7, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> Do we know that it actually went forward after the petition? I've yet to see any kind of update to that effect.


The last I heard (early March) is that the Neighbours From Hell had submitted a revised planning application (not revised enough to make any difference, of course), and there was a call from the petition organisers for people to submit their objections to the local council again. So I don't think it's a done deal yet, and I sincerely hope that the selfishness of a few people will not be privileged over the livelihoods of many. But then, I'm an optimist. Well, an optimistic cynic


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## jamwerks (May 7, 2016)

If BML Vol. II's were coming out, they'd have been recorded a year ago. So the underground swimming pool of the neighbors can't really be the culprit.

I wasn't thinking SF should be permanently posting here. No reason for developers to have to talk about the future. But since they openly did, and said what their plans were (and that didn't happen) they should at least (imo) give an update...


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## Neifion (May 7, 2016)

Also, their Sacconi Strings is supposedly all recorded and they're still releasing other libraries with no word on when they'll release the last volume. So it certainly seems like the Lyndhurst-area construction isn't the reason why they're delaying, but rather, they want to work on the project that interests them at the moment.


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## mc_deli (May 7, 2016)

Well, there's an awful lot of effort gone into the marketing videos. They are mostly great to watch but... yeah... back to the plot chaps.

I would find it easier to buy e.g. Sable knowing more things had been "fixed".

Focus on the core products.


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## Sean J (May 7, 2016)

I want a developer to keep its promises in a timely manner.
I reached out to that developer directly & privately.
They suggested I post on VI Control as a better place to address it.

I suppose that makes me a vigilante or a complainer in the eyes of some. But in my own eyes that is not the case. I'm a user. And users give feedback. Last I checked, unless the forum is exclusively intended for unproductive speculation... the whole point of having a forum was, well... nevermind.

Apparently to a few folks here, that is living on the edge.


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## Ryan (May 8, 2016)

I think they are more like me, in person. They have to many balls in the air at the same time.

Well, anyway. Time will show, but I feel confident that the upgrades/updates will come in the near future. They have shown in the past that they have done significant updates to their product range (read: Percussion Redux etc).

We'll have to have some patience with these guys at Spitfire Audio 

Best
Ryan


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## EvilDragon (May 8, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> I want a developer to keep its promises in a timely manner.



They never promised anything ("swear on me mum it's going to go out soon!") or committed to an exact date of release! So what would be a "timely manner" on something like that? Libraries are sold *as-is*. Don't buy into them expecting updates - it's good if they will happen, but developer is not bound by contract to make them. Sharing their plans with the public is *not* the same thing as a promise - after all, we all know that plans change as times change (how many times did any of you plan for something only for it to never happen because of various reasons?). People are reading too much into this stuff.


Also, Spitfire usually tell people their helpdesk is the best place to get support, so it seems weird to me that they told you to go off and post to VI-C instead...


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## Ashermusic (May 8, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Libraries are sold *as-is*. Don't buy into them expecting updates - it's good if they will happen, but developer is not bound by contract to make them. Sharing their plans with the public is *not* the same thing as a promise - after all, we all know that plans change as times change (how many times did any of you plan for something only for it to never happen because of various reasons?).



I totally agree.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 8, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> They never promised anything ("swear on me mum it's going to go out soon!") or committed to an exact date of release! So what would be a "timely manner" on something like that? Libraries are sold *as-is*. Don't buy into them expecting updates - it's good if they will happen, but developer is not bound by contract to make them. Sharing their plans with the public is *not* the same thing as a promise - after all, we all know that plans change as times change (how many times did any of you plan for something only for it to never happen because of various reasons?). People are reading too much into this stuff.



You really seem to think you're talking to a bunch of five-year olds here.


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## tack (May 8, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> They never promised anything ("swear on me mum it's going to go out soon!") or committed to an exact date of release! So what would be a "timely manner" on something like that?


I don't know, referring to a BML reeds volume 2 library in 2014 using the present tense is a pretty strong suggestion that expansions are coming somewhere before Q2 2016. I'm less bothered by that though than I am about easily fixable bugs in premium products languishing for double digit months. Because you're right of course in your main point that one should never make purchases based on casual discussions of future expansions or product releases.

Virharmonic's Bohemian may be an interesting case study in the context of this discussion. Expansions definitely were promised, and dates were given. Is it reasonable to have purchased that library based on the promise of free updates, or should a customer assume even there the library is sold as-is and the promised expansions would just be icing on the cake? (In my case I preordered the Bohemian just to support Virharmonic because I liked Ondrej's engagement on the forum so it doesn't particularly matter to me if there are updates, but it's an interesting example on this subject.)


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## gpax (May 8, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> I want a developer to keep its promises in a timely manner.
> I reached out to that developer directly & privately.
> They suggested I post on VI Control as a better place to address it.
> 
> ...


I appreciate what you are saying, but have to confess I'm still somewhat dubious, as my experiences communicating with developers has been very different. No, I don't always get the answers I want - or the things I am still waiting for.

But it changes the balance of objectivity for me personally - as a forum participant where developers are also invited to engage - to see letters and/or petitions leveraged specifically at someone. Developers already read these forum discussions - and see the surveys. Many actively participate.

Maybe for some it's just semantics. But for me, there is a big difference in being able to talk freely and spiritedly about these concerns here, from that which you seem to advocate: circumventing other avenues of communication, by enlisting an open-letter campaign strategy here. At least that's how I am reading it.


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## Sean J (May 8, 2016)

As far as "reading into" things... I've had people question my motives, honesty, and mental attitude on here. Why it is people feel they are qualified to discuss my thoughts and intentions as if they are a first-hand witness to what goes on in my brain... well I find it all a bit unreasonable at best. How about we leave all the personal commentary out of this and be a bit more professional and productive? Or, dare I say another word here, is that too much to ask?

I said I wanted to give feedback on the libraries and get input from other users, in order to help them see how valid wide-ranging the feedback might be. In case no one here is aware, it's helpful for companies to know whether a concern belongs to one user or several. So I was trying to help, not go on a crusade. I'd have thought how much I've said I love their products might have spoken to that. But clearly I'm only trying to attack people here.

I said I wanted to sign into Spitfire's support forum. As stated, again... this was in order to give feedback which included more opinions than my own. The reply:

"Hi Sean,

Apologies but we do not support our forums anymore.
They are still up at the moment due to some of our product manual being hosted on there but we plan to shut them down and move our manuals to a different location in the future.

We often post and communicate with our users on VI Control so I would recommend signing up if you haven't already.

Kind Regards,
Lawrence"​
As for my expectations, I believe I've spoken to this enough already. I believe arguing with anyone about that would be pointless and a waste of my energy. I will try to limit myself to replying to anyone who doesn't need to pick apart my own sentiments and instead comments to the nature of the post:

Would the BML range be served well by adding a fast legato or not?
When do YOU expect it by? 10 years? Before you die?
Offer your OWN feedback for Spitfire, in the spirit of helping them deliver products you'll be satisfied with and willing to keep buying.

And if you feel obligated to reply and point out the flawed thinking I surely must have here as well, then so be it. Post away until the internet consumes you. I'm getting back to what I love, which is creating writing music and creating something beautiful. Somehow that feels more productive and more sane than continuing a conversation with people who clearly aren't like minded at best. Perhaps I should just stay away from this forum altogether. Clearly I can't speak a word without causing contention.

-The Village Idiot


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 8, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> And if you feel obligated to reply and point out the flawed thinking I surely must have here as well, then so be it. Post away until the internet consumes you. I'm getting back to what I love, which is creating writing music and creating something beautiful. Somehow that feels more productive and more sane than continuing a conversation with people who clearly aren't like minded at best. Perhaps I should just stay away from this forum altogether. Clearly I can't speak a word without causing contention.
> 
> -The Village Idiot



Your disillusion is understandable - there's a general theme to this though. Often times, when you see these smartass comments that divert from the actual topic, but question the person's talent, user competence or general personality, you'll notice they often come from folks that a) are close with devs b) have been close with devs c) need to get close to devs. You get the picture. Obviously it's annoying and presumptuous, but I wouldn't attach too much importance to it.


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## vicontrolu (May 8, 2016)

Heh..."post away until the internet until the internet consumes you"..says your post on the internet. 

Its a trap!


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## JohnG (May 8, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> You really seem to think you're talking to a bunch of five-year olds here.



Frankly, Jimmy, I would say that of some of your posts. You impugn the motives of people who disagree with you and don't insinuate -- you state flat out -- that they have some conflict of interest about wanting "to be close to devs." That is 100% untrue. Please keep your comments to the discussion and don't attack people's character and motivation without proof -- inference is not proof.

You think you should have updates? Fine, go ahead and say so. I'd like some from many libraries, not just Spitfire. I accept that others have a different view.

What I find unfair about threads like this one is to state or imply that Spitfire has _profoundly_ let down its purchasers by not delivering updates. Personally, I disagree with that position. I regard shortcomings like the ones cited in this thread as marginal, nice-to-have, but I don't think they rise to the level that some have posted here as "fundamental" shortcomings or other catastrophic problems.

For you to denigrate people's motives with zero proof is unfair and wrong. It is also against forum rules.


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## Sean J (May 8, 2016)

Who said that Spitfire has profoundly let us down? Most everything I've read, and said, has been that "man it's great, this is just the one thing I want to see addressed still". In fact, I'd say that's been the largest sentiment on the thread so far. The only people making it seem much bigger than it is, are the folks who are trolling the thread and have been clearly denigrating the motives of myself and those who want a legato update from the start.







It was that or a "Can't we all just get along" meme. I couldn't resist.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 8, 2016)

JohnG said:


> For you to denigrate people's motives with zero proof is unfair and wrong. It is also against forum rules.



What "proof", and what for? If you wanna look at it that way, you'd have to demand "proof" for every single thing anybody says. Content submitted express the views of their author only, as they say. If someone recognizes themselves in something I said - well, what can I do about it?.. Especially since I was in no way specific about any kind of "denigration", nor have I mentioned any names or targeted anyone directly. Well.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 8, 2016)

Okay, well, as a moderator I'd like to request that this be dialed down.

And I say that as someone unabashedly in all three categories - a, b, c. Nobody should have any doubt about whether I'm a corrupt sleazebag.


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## Arbee (May 8, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Your disillusion is understandable - there's a general theme to this though. Often times, when you see these smartass comments that divert from the actual topic, but question the person's talent, user competence or general personality, you'll notice they often come from folks that a) are close with devs b) have been close with devs c) need to get close to devs. You get the picture. Obviously it's annoying and presumptuous, but I wouldn't attach too much importance to it.


Yep, this....


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## Saxer (May 9, 2016)

Library developement takes a time. A lot of time. Not only from recording to editing to releasing but also from planning to recording.
A few years ago I purchased the pre-release of SF Sable and VSL Dimension Strings. Vol1 of Sable had basic Violins1 and Cellos only and Dimension Strings consisted of Violins only. Both libraries were more or less unusable for me at that time and I was convinced that I'll never ever buy those waiting loop libraries ever again.
But at the end and more than two years later this investments showed up as the best I ever made!

So I was again one of the first who bought the pre-release of Bohemian Violin and Dimension Strings II. I know that it will take years again to get a Bohemian Quartett and a full muted Dimension section.

I'm happy that Spitire is a 'work in progress' company. Waiting is hard but there are others where everyone (including me) just gave up to hope for updates (EastWest or 8Dio come into my mind).

Use what you have and be happy if you get more.
Get used to the status of 'waiting' because it will never ever end.


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## EvilDragon (May 9, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> Remember, Andy has scripted a brilliant fast legato already. It’s just not released for BML yet.



Andy doesn't do any scripting - Blake does. Andy does NKI programming, though.


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## Sean J (May 9, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Andy doesn't do any scripting - Blake does. Andy does NKI programming, though.



Ah, gotcha. I thought the Legato KSP specifically was Andy, and the B.R. did the rest.


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## EvilDragon (May 9, 2016)

Nopes  Legato _programming _(as in patch making, crossfades between intervals, etc.) is Andy. The whole GUI and engine is Blake's doing ("Sandbox"). Well anyways, details. :D


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## gpax (May 9, 2016)

scoredfilms said:


> For the record, I may struggle to articulate sometimes and I may go back and forth a bit sometimes. This is only because I am a human being capable of being persuaded, believe it or not.  But I believe this post sums up what are now more conclusive, or matured feelings that I have about this.
> 
> With respect,
> Sean


I wish you no ill here at all. Perhaps I became stuck on the timbre and tone from the original post (before it was edited). Perhaps it’s a very different thread now, with a more benevolent intent, and I can do nothing else but allow you the benefit of the doubt on that front.

I have a personal list for BML that goes beyond faster legato wishes, and want to simply say that I am neither trolling or disassociated with the topic. It's a discussion I've definitely had before, outside of the forum as well. Regards.


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## Sean J (May 9, 2016)

gpax said:


> I... want to simply say that I am neither trolling or disassociated with the topic.



We found the troll!!! Get him!


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## Sean Beeson (May 10, 2016)

Spitfire has wowed me with a lot of their releases and updates. It may be quiet now, but I am confident they will wow us again in the near future. It is a lot of work (as others have said) to maintain consistency across so many libraries, with multiple mic positions, mixes, ect. 

I also have found myself reaching for the legato less and less. Unless I really want a string line to pop from the rest of the orchestra, I just use the sustains with a quick release and a hard attack. Mural however, isn't nearly as playable as Sable is. If everything they have could be as playable as Sable, then my mind would be blown :D


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## higgs (May 10, 2016)

Sean Beeson said:


> I also have found myself reaching for the legato less and less. Unless I really want a string line to pop from the rest of the orchestra, I just use the sustains with a quick release and a hard attack. Mural however, isn't nearly as playable as Sable is. If everything they have could be as playable as Sable, then my mind would be blown :D


+1


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## Ashermusic (May 10, 2016)

I think we should maybe have a discussion in a new topic about true legato vs simulated legato sustain patches in libraries. I do sometimes think that the former can cause more problems than it solves sometimes.


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## Sean J (May 11, 2016)

Sean Beeson said:


> If everything they have could be as playable as Sable, then my mind would be blown :D



Indeed!


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## Vik (Aug 8, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> I have a theory that in fact SF aren't quite as concerned with legato as other developers are.


Frankly, I don't think that's the problem - at least if the Sable/SCS legatos are as great as I think they are. But maybe they aren't as concerned with Mural legatos as they are/were with Sable legatos?


tack said:


> Much of this can indeed be worked around. Pitch shift for intonation problems. Avoid bad patches (e.g. use stereo or alt mix patches). Write around clicky/poppy samples (use different dynamics or different notes altogether). Switch to longs to avoid a dodgy legato transition. Etc. For me, a high quality library is one in which I don't _have_ to do those things.
> 
> That makes it especially frustrating _exactly because_ the sonic quality is otherwise so inspiring.


Sure. After so much waiting for a fix for the many problems with Mural's legato, I now actually regret having bought the product. It's not only about getting a faster legato (maybe in addition to having a slow legato), it's about artifacts and lack of playability.


scoredfilms said:


> ...as a user I can’t ignore a sour taste every time I try to use the legato the way I want to, especially when a potential solution from Spitfire already exists and solutions from other companies exist via means that I believe to be more fair given the context I outlined above.


+1
It's really frustrating. And I say this as a user who really likes Spitfire as a company.

ETA: But of course there may be some hope, because even if Mural 3 has been out for circa a year, there's still not Legato Con Sord, Legato Con Sord Portamento, Legato Flautando Portamento. IIRR, Sable got these as an addition to the Sable 3 release. OTOH, considering all the issues in the Mural legato, I guess they won't just release the CS and Flaut legatos based on the same scripting they have used for the eaarlier Mural legatos.

Unfortunately, I bought Berlin Strings since my legatos with Mural 1 and 2 often were unusable... not "unfortunately" because I don't like Berlin Strings (I do), but because I had hoped to be able to stay with Mural. And Mural does have some great stuff which Berlin doesn't have, so I'd like to keep using Mural. Crossing my finger for getting an update which lets me use Mural 1 and 2 with great legatos without having to invest in Mural 3/4 or a rebranded version a la Spitfire Chamber Strings.


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## prodigalson (Aug 8, 2016)

Vik said:


> Frankly, I don't think that's the problem - at least if the Sable/SCS legatos are as great as I think they are. But maybe they aren't as concerned with Mural legatos as they are/were with Sable legatos?
> 
> Sure. After so much waiting for a fix for the many problems with Mural's legato, I now actually regret having bought the product. It's not only about getting a faster legato (maybe in addition to having a slow legato), it's about artifacts and lack of playability.
> 
> ...



Considering the recent repackaging of Sable into SCS, I fully expect them to do the same thing for Mural (they've already stopped calling it that in videos and are referring to it as "symphonic strings".) and I wouldn't be surprised if they offered updated legato patches at the same time.


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## Vik (Aug 8, 2016)

True, but IMO it's strange that they still haven't released some preliminary fixes for the problems with the Mural legatos - for instance those related to the sliders which are supposed to control the speed/intensity of the legato transitions.

It's more than three years since Mural was launched, and I have never come across any product which needs more than three years of waiting before becoming usable for what I consider normal work. Or; it is usable for some kind of "normal" work, but (in a lot of cases) not for the kind of string lines which require legato.

And I agree with whoever wrote that legato in a way is the most essential feature in any string library, so this doesn't make sense at all. As you can see in this an other threads - many Mural users are frustrated with the legatos.


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## scoringdreams (Aug 8, 2016)

It was exactly because of this reason where I chose to invest my efforts into learning CSS and their releases to come.

But Mural is a library with good potential, just that it is too slow. Perhaps a post Brexit phenomena?


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## Vik (Aug 17, 2016)

scoringdreams said:


> It was exactly because of this reason where I chose to invest my efforts into learning CSS and their releases to come.
> 
> But Mural is a library with good potential, just that it is too slow.


Yes, and often too loud. Things just dont "work as advertised".



I tried five different settings for these three legato/portamento settings in Mural.




All on full. All on zero. Then three variations with two of the settings on full, and one on zero. The result can be heard in the attached file, and there's almost no difference. That's one of my main problems with these legato portamentos, another is that I often find two of these modes...





... are by mistake activated at the same time, and that whatever I play, two modes keep being active.

I have these situations a lot. Could something be wrong with my specific system (this has never worked properly), or happen due to some user error on my side?



[AUDIOPLUS=http://vi-control.net/community/attachments/five-different_1-mp3.6050/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## mickeyl (Aug 17, 2016)

Mural really needs an update with the playable patches magic introduced in the scripting first for Sacconi, then for SCS.


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## higgs (Aug 17, 2016)

mickeyl said:


> Mural really needs an update with the playable patches magic introduced in the scripting first for Sacconi, then for SCS.


I would like that too. It seems imminent considering all they've been up to since June.


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## heliosequence (Aug 17, 2016)

There was a Bass Clarinet picture on their Instagram feed a week ago and a flute a week before that. Seems that maybe a third to half of the pictures have been related to upcoming releases. Perhaps we'll see a SCS type repackaging for Woodwinds first?


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## jamwerks (Aug 17, 2016)

Was always wondering why the delay in the BML vol. II's for WW & Brass. Maybe they want to nail the "playable" patch we saw recently for Sacconi. Can't see that not happening!


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## TeamLeader (Aug 17, 2016)

I would certainly be happy with a finished Mural.  But I would be ecstatic if they just fixed all the broken UACC links in a lot of the BML libs that have existed for many many moons.


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## Vik (Nov 26, 2017)

Are there any Spitfire users in this thread who can tell me if Spitfire Chamber Strings have vibrato crossfading? And - if the answer is no: Are the Sable presets which allow vibrato crossfades included with SCS?
Thanks in advance!


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## Michael Antrum (Nov 26, 2017)

I am currently downloading it, but I am pretty sure that it is shown in the product walkthrough on the product page....


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## tack (Nov 26, 2017)

Vik said:


> Are there any Spitfire users in this thread who can tell me if Spitfire Chamber Strings have vibrato crossfading?


Yes. Two vibrato layers in the ensembles patch, and 3 for the individual section patches (except for Cb which is just two).


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## Vik (Nov 26, 2017)

Thanks. What about the new performance patches?


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## tack (Nov 26, 2017)

Vik said:


> Thanks. What about the new performance patches?


Yep though it looks like only the two vibrato layers though (senza and molto). In contrast, the legacy legato patches have three layers like the other palettes.


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## Vik (Nov 26, 2017)

Thanks, tack. That may explain why a user in another thread wrote about a missing layer. But are they crossfadable - or only crosswitchable?


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## tack (Nov 26, 2017)

Vik said:


> But are they crossfadable - or only crosswitchable?


Crossfadable via CC21.


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## markleake (Nov 26, 2017)

As we said in the other thread, they aren't crossfadable in the Performance Legato patch, it's just a switch (the switch is on CC21 as tack says). The legacy legato patches also are just cross-switches. The longs are the only patch with the the true vibrato crossfade.


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## Vik (Nov 26, 2017)

Thanks, markleake... Yes, I remember you wrote that, I just wanted to double check here since there seemed to be opposing info/views about this. 

So there are longs in the old Sable presets, with x-fade vibrato, and the new performance presets in SCS, with x-switch vibrato. Then there are old Longs in Sable with x-fade vib. But the dedicated Sable legato patches also have x-fade vib, don't they? 

And what about the newer SCS presets - are there any smart legato patches (as opposed to the individual legato patches with eg only fingered vibrato) which has x-fade vib? Or are the old 'smart' (which automatically switches between different kinds of legato/portamento) Sable presets good enough?

I also wonder how the x-switchable vib presets work. In Berlin Strings, there's no x-fade vibrato unless you set it up a manually using two different presets, and you can't x-switch on the fly: if you change the vib slider, it will only affect the next note. From what I think I've read, the x-switch in Spitfire strings may happen on-the fly - right?


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## markleake (Nov 27, 2017)

No worries Vik. I think you are getting confused and over-complicating it all.

Here's the breakdown for vibrato layers/control in the various SCS patches:

New Performance Legato (this is what didn't exist in the old Sable) - 2 layers, cross-*switch*.
All other legatos (incl. the Sable legacy & the legato in the main articulations patch, but excl. the decorative legatos as they have no vibrato controls) - 3 layers except I think basses, cross-*switch*.
Longs patches (normal longs, not the decorative longs) - 3 layers except I think basses again, cross-*fade*.

The new performance legato is Spitfire's 'smart' legato and shorts patch.

The cross-switch in both SCS and SSS happens on-the-fly. It's not exactly a super-smooth transition, but not too noticeable if occurs in a mix either.


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## Vik (Nov 27, 2017)

Thanks for the details, marklake. That means the preset I'll probably be using the most (the new Performance Legato) if I'll buy SCS is the one with the least favourable legato solution. Maybe there are technical reasons for this limitation, because - especially in a preset which uses x-switch instead of x-fade, why would someone want to have only two vib options? Anyway, I'm less confused now!


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## Chris Richter (Nov 27, 2017)

What's the current status on those Symphonic Orchestra Samples? Are the issues fixed with the re-release?


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## markleake (Nov 27, 2017)

Vik said:


> Thanks for the details, marklake. That means the preset I'll probably be using the most (the new Performance Legato) if I'll buy SCS is the one with the least favourable legato solution. Maybe there are technical reasons for this limitation, because - especially in a preset which uses x-switch instead of x-fade, why would someone want to have only two vib options? Anyway, I'm less confused now!


Well one way to manage it is to load the patch twice, set one to vib, one to non-vib, and crossfade yourself between the two.


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## Vik (Nov 27, 2017)

markleake said:


> Well one way to manage it is to load the patch twice, set one to vib, one to non-vib, and crossfade yourself between the two.


I knew there is a built in way to do that with two different instances of Berlin Strings (and that's unfortunately the only way to get vibrato crossfade in that library), but is there a built in way to do that with SF libraries as well (or all Kontakt libraries) besides the obvious and cumbersome way to do it (set up two faders in the mixer, and fade one up + the other down)?


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## Vik (Nov 27, 2017)

Regarding what this thread actually is about - the legato intensity in SF libraries, I'm also curious about the new SCS and SSS performance presets, which should much smarter than the legato presets. But since they seem to have no dedicated legato speed and intensity control (unless I'm mistaken, maybe that's only true for SSS), one needs to rely on their default settings. This leads to another question to existing SCS owners:
Do you ever experience the kind of exaggerated (too loud, to long/slow portamento) which many of were frustrated with in the Mural libraries? If I go for SCS, I certainly don't want to have situations like the those we have discussed in eg this thread: https://vi-control.net/community/th...to-intensity-in-mural-sss.65929/#post-4143230


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