# Do composers/producers need to be able to mix surround?



## Hunter123 (Jan 7, 2018)

I'm looking to write/produce trailer style music and am wondering-do the majority of these composers (who I assume mix there own music) need to mix there tracks in surround? Or do they usually get help from a specialist after they finish a stereo mix? Is 5.1 the most common or do we need to know both 5.1 and 7.1?


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## mc_deli (Jan 7, 2018)

Have you written anything yet?


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## Hunter123 (Jan 7, 2018)

Yes I have. I've been writing tracks for royalty free in a variety of genres for the past year and have been getting more into trailer music lately so I've been studying and practicing the form and approach. Just curious as to what the pros do.


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## Scoremixer (Jan 8, 2018)

The vast majority of trailer/library music is mixed in stereo. If a bespoke piece of music is commissioned for a particular trailer it's more likely that it will receive a dedicated surround mix.

The higher end trailer libraries tend to get their stuff mixed (in stereo) by specialists, but there are also composing teams that have the chops to do it themselves and get good results.

As long as you make a good set of stems alongside your full mix, you should be covered for future usage possibilities. Bear in mind that there's probably more chance of having your track used as underscore to an episode of reality TV than being selected to accompany a major film trailer, so getting a surround mix straight off the bat probably isn't a sensible use of budget!


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## Hunter123 (Jan 8, 2018)

Scoremixer said:


> The vast majority of trailer/library music is mixed in stereo. If a bespoke piece of music is commissioned for a particular trailer it's more likely that it will receive a dedicated surround mix.
> 
> The higher end trailer libraries tend to get their stuff mixed (in stereo) by specialists, but there are also composing teams that have the chops to do it themselves and get good results.
> 
> As long as you make a good set of stems alongside your full mix, you should be covered for future usage possibilities. Bear in mind that there's probably more chance of having your track used as underscore to an episode of reality TV than being selected to accompany a major film trailer, so getting a surround mix straight off the bat probably isn't a sensible use of budget!


That makes more sense and takes the pressure off from learning surround mixing techniques, I have to work on my normal stereo mixing first anyway. Thank you!


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 8, 2018)

Scoremixer said:


> As long as you make a good set of stems alongside your full mix,



What would your stems be approximately? And would they include separate tracks as dry or reverb returns? I hear/read about mixers sometimes just adding reverb to existing tracks for the surround channels as a quick and dirty approach but if you stems already have a layer of reverb...? Maybe I’m overthinking this.


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## Hunter123 (Jan 8, 2018)

givemenoughrope said:


> What would your stems be approximately? And would they include separate tracks as dry or reverb returns? I hear/read about mixers sometimes just adding reverb to existing tracks for the surround channels as a quick and dirty approach but if you stems already have a layer of reverb...? Maybe I’m overthinking this.


If you go to mostly any of the production music websites you can listen to the tracks. For example Revolt Production Music-click on an album, click on the track options and then the track details it will show the stems (alternative versions of this track). I think what they're looking for is just the separate instrument tracks or bus tracks but I'm not totally sure. Maybe Scoremixer would know?


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## Scoremixer (Jan 8, 2018)

Hunter123 said:


> If you go to mostly any of the production music websites you can listen to the tracks. For example Revolt Production Music-click on an album, click on the track options and then the track details it will show the stems (alternative versions of this track). I think what they're looking for is just the separate instrument tracks or bus tracks but I'm not totally sure. Maybe Scoremixer would know?



Delivery requirements for the library companies are different to delivery requirements for yourself! Libraries might want cut down versions, beds, drone-only etc but if you want useful stems that a dubber could use to remix your track with then you'll have to go deeper than that (full sets of stems are also very useful for creating the above deliverables for the library companies, probably easier than re-arranging in your DAW with MIDI).

Obviously stems will vary massively based on what you're doing, but if you want to provide the rolls royce service on a full fat hybrid orchestral track they might look something like:

Strings Long
Strings Short
WW
Brass
Orch FX
PercLow
PercHi
PercCymbals
PercTuned
Drums
Plucked
Piano/Keys
Bass
PadsLo
PadsHi
SynthLo
SynthHi
FX
Choir
Solos

Just provide mixed stems as is, ie don't worry about separate dry/wet stems unless you've got something really crazy or controversial going on.


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## benmrx (Jan 8, 2018)

As someone whose workload is roughly 30% composing and 70% sound design/mixing for TV, Film, Ads, etc. I would absolutely NOT want the composer to send me a baked surround mix. If the project is to be done in surround, send the stems and let the mixer put it in surround. 

Not sure on deliverables for libraries. Though I assume it can be a case by case basis depending on who you're dealing with.


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## synthetic (Jan 13, 2018)

They’re going to remix the score in 7.1 on the stage? I doubt it, not well. 

Of course if you can afford a mixer then use that person for the surround mix. But surround mixing is a skill that can be learned. Every DVD ends with a suite of the film’s best music in surround. Get a surround monitoring controller (I have the old SMC), mute the LR, and listen again to what is being panned to the surrounds. It’s easy to provide a stereo mix and/or stems if they really want to remix it. But most dub mixers want to pull up (then down!) the faders on the music.


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## benmrx (Jan 13, 2018)

synthetic said:


> They’re going to remix the score in 7.1 on the stage? I doubt it, not well.
> 
> Of course if you can afford a mixer then use that person for the surround mix. But surround mixing is a skill that can be learned. Every DVD ends with a suite of the film’s best music in surround. Get a surround monitoring controller (I have the old SMC), mute the LR, and listen again to what is being panned to the surrounds. It’s easy to provide a stereo mix and/or stems if they really want to remix it. But most dub mixers want to pull up (then down!) the faders on the music.



It's not a remix, you're just providing stems as per usual. At least in my world, the mixer should be able to keep your stems at unity and have that replicate your mix. You're not sending them all the raw tracks. The last film I mixed was a challenge regarding the music because I only had a single, full mix of the music. Trying to add reverb to the strings, but only the rears, and only to create a specific transitional element that melded with SFX/backgrounds was a real PIA because I didn't want that same verb on the big/deep/epic drums or guitars. 

This is especially important (IMO) when the music is diegetic. Imagine you write a cue where a character is in the car. The music is suppose to sound like it's coming from the car stereo, but then..., after an 'important line of dialogue' the music transitions to a full spectrum mix. I would absolutely not want that cue sent to me as a single surround mix. 

Then again, I'm not working in big LA dub stages.


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## Paul Grymaud (Jan 13, 2018)

*Not necessarily*


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## Scoremixer (Jan 13, 2018)

For the avoidance of doubt to anyone who may be reading this… Errbody be wanting stems. Editorial want stems. Mixers want stems (maybe not as many as editorial, but while you’re at it you may as well stem that shit wide). Unless you’re John Williams, or intend to write exclusively orchestral music for French films, people will be expecting stems, and not providing them can hurt your chances of a) winning the work in the first place b) getting a sympathetic mix of your work vs. all the other stuff going on in a dub.

If, as a composer, you feel you can provide 12+ 5.1 mixed stems on a trailer or library music track without running into CPU, workflow, time or sheer headfuck limitations and you trust your monitoring and the calibration of said monitoring then by all means have at it and mix in surround. To my mind though, that gives a very poor cost/benefit ratio unless you’re specifically being asked to provide a 5.1 mix. The people pulling library tracks off the shelves to sync to picture would, in almost all circumstances, rather have a bunch of useable stereo stems than a single 5.1 mix, even if the final destination is a theatre (which, unless you’re an established name trailer composer, it’s unlikely to be, for now).


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## aaronventure (Jan 14, 2018)

Scoremixer said:


> For the avoidance of doubt to anyone who may be reading this… Errbody be wanting stems. Editorial want stems. Mixers want stems (maybe not as many as editorial, but while you’re at it you may as well stem that shit wide). Unless you’re John Williams, or intend to write exclusively orchestral music for French films, people will be expecting stems, and not providing them can hurt your chances of a) winning the work in the first place b) getting a sympathetic mix of your work vs. all the other stuff going on in a dub.
> 
> If, as a composer, you feel you can provide 12+ 5.1 mixed stems on a trailer or library music track without running into CPU, workflow, time or sheer headfuck limitations and you trust your monitoring and the calibration of said monitoring then by all means have at it and mix in surround. To my mind though, that gives a very poor cost/benefit ratio unless you’re specifically being asked to provide a 5.1 mix. The people pulling library tracks off the shelves to sync to picture would, in almost all circumstances, rather have a bunch of useable stereo stems than a single 5.1 mix, even if the final destination is a theatre (which, unless you’re an established name trailer composer, it’s unlikely to be, for now).



Is music mostly on FR FL RR RL channels, or is there stuff in the center speaker as well (maybe a mono fold-down of the entire mix)?


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## Scoremixer (Jan 15, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> Is music mostly on FR FL RR RL channels, or is there stuff in the center speaker as well (maybe a mono fold-down of the entire mix)?



If you've got real orchestra on a track, then center has the Decca tree C mic in it. Lots of engineers pan sectional spot mics across the LCR as well, so there'll be some V2/Vla, Woodwind etc spots in there too. If you've recorded other real instruments with a view to a 5.1 mix, it's common to put up LCR room mics in order to have something relevant to populate the centre channel with. 

It's a slightly different situation if you're just working with essentially stereo tracks of programmed synths/samples. Normally all that ends up in the centre in that scenario is 5.1 reverbs and maybe an extrapolated centre if you've used an upmixer on anything. Definitely not a foldown of the entire mix- that's a quick way to ensure narrowness.

Centre channel is definitely controversial, but having something meaningful in there really helps if (and when) the dubbing mixers pull the LR of the 5.1 mix rearwards in the theatre to clear out screen space for SFX etc- it helps keeps the music perceptually anchored towards the front.


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## JohnG (Jan 15, 2018)

@Scoremixer is spot on here.

For a short while, libraries were mixing in 5.1 but I understand the reason they seem to have dropped it is that their tracks get _auditioned_ in stereo, so it's the stereo mix that really matters.

As score mixer has written, you will want to stem things out in a detailed way -- that's a good list in his post above -- so that they can send whatever they want to surrounds. Some people say "never put anything in the sub, never put anything in the centre" but I've seen others (including H. Zimmer) argue differently about that.

If I have to deliver 5.1 I ask my engineer to do it. He knows what he's doing; I'm just the composer.


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## aaronventure (Jan 15, 2018)

Scoremixer said:


> If you've got real orchestra on a track, then center has the Decca tree C mic in it. Lots of engineers pan sectional spot mics across the LCR as well, so there'll be some V2/Vla, Woodwind etc spots in there too. If you've recorded other real instruments with a view to a 5.1 mix, it's common to put up LCR room mics in order to have something relevant to populate the centre channel with.
> 
> It's a slightly different situation if you're just working with essentially stereo tracks of programmed synths/samples. Normally all that ends up in the centre in that scenario is 5.1 reverbs and maybe an extrapolated centre if you've used an upmixer on anything. Definitely not a foldown of the entire mix- that's a quick way to ensure narrowness.
> 
> Centre channel is definitely controversial, but having something meaningful in there really helps if (and when) the dubbing mixers pull the LR of the 5.1 mix rearwards in the theatre to clear out screen space for SFX etc- it helps keeps the music perceptually anchored towards the front.



Thanks for the write-up, many things are clear now!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 15, 2018)

The best surround mixes I've heard only use the rear speakers for depth, i.e. they add a little of what you're hearing in front of you to the back to move certain things forward.

Well, I don't want to say they *only* use the surrounds for depth, but anything else is an occasional effect.


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