# Good controller for orchestral sample libraries?



## LoungeLizard96 (Dec 15, 2014)

Hi everyone.

I'm looking for a midi controller to dial in my modulation controls for the various libraries I own.
Up until now, I've been using the mouse to draw it in.
It'd be nice to have a couple of faders that I could assign various controls to, to make the process easier.

Does anybody know of a good control panel?

By the way, i don't mean a keyboard controller. i already have my Yamaha clavinova doing everything I need in that department.
The problem with it, is that it doesn't have a mod wheel or anything of the sort.
I'm looking for a good, stand alone device, that I can just plug into my midi interface/usb computer ports as an addition to my piano.

Cheers

PS: I noticed one of the CineSample's guys uses these all the time, so it'd be something similar to those.

- LL


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## chibear (Dec 15, 2014)

While I don't use one, a couple of my acquaintances use http://global.novationmusic.com/midi-controllers/zero-sl-mkii (the Novation Zero SL Mk II) and speak quite highly of it.

For touchy stuff I have found the Vmeter provides more finesse than any normal knob or slider I have tried. Issue is it's a little quirky to program. You have to download a limited time active programmer to set its output. I just set it to output CC11 so I can use it for that or quickly automate a VSTi knob or slider to respond to CC11.


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## maestro2be (Dec 15, 2014)

What about an IPad with Lemur? You would have infinite power to control your DAW. Not to mention about every vendor today offers an IPad APP.

That's what I use.


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## ThomasL (Dec 15, 2014)

I use an Apple Touchpad and the app Touchpad FX. It's great!


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2014)

I just cannot seem to enjoy automating by sliding my fingers on an iPad. I have tried, but in the end I prefer a hardware fader.


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## mohurwitzmusic (Dec 15, 2014)

Yes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRKeT17HyHU (Composer Tools for Liine Lemur on iPad.)


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## Cowtothesky (Dec 15, 2014)

Right now I'm using a Korg M3 and Alphatrack frontier, which isn't bad. The Alphatrack does a good job and it's pretty inexpensive. What I want is a weighted 88-key board with a quality keybed, quality mod wheels, and quality powered sliders. I like things bundled to keep it simple. I would like for it to speak with my DAW, but also act as a practice board that I can switch on and in a second or 2 be playing a piano or string pad. Very few even make 88-key controllers anymore. So,I may have to make my own. :/


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## jimfurey (Dec 15, 2014)

I've been using a Novation Zero SL MkII for a few years now. Like most controllers it has its quirks. It's primarily intended to be used with Novation's Automap software, which while it works great with most of my plugins (synths, effects, etc.), it does not play nicely with Kontakt. 

For Kontakt I've had to set it up to work with cc controls instead of Automap and I've found that to be temper-mental. It keeps wanting to revert to Automap settings as I move through different parts of my workflow in Logic so I find myself having to frequently choose a CC user set whenever I pop onto a Kontakt hosted instrument/library. 

I do use it regularly with Cinesamples libraries though, with faders set for Modulation, Expression, Breath, and a couple of other library specific controls. Once it's set to communicate properly, it works great.


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## Marius Masalar (Dec 15, 2014)

I had a Novation Nocturn for this for a while but quickly got rid of it—felt cheap and AutoMap is just terrible.

Now that I use a Panorama P6 as my main controller, I have all the knobs and faders I need, but if I didn't I would strongly consider the non-keyboard P1, also from Panorama. Exact same integration and features, just no keys or pads.


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## chrysshawk (Dec 15, 2014)

I recently got a foot controller with two expression pedals (typically one is dynamics and the other is vibrato) - very happy with it.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FCB1010.aspx

CH


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## Zardoz (Dec 15, 2014)

chibear @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> While I don't use one, a couple of my acquaintances use http://global.novationmusic.com/midi-controllers/zero-sl-mkii (the Novation Zero SL Mk II) and speak quite highly of it.
> 
> For touchy stuff I have found the Vmeter provides more finesse than any normal knob or slider I have tried. Issue is it's a little quirky to program. You have to download a limited time active programmer to set its output. I just set it to output CC11 so I can use it for that or quickly automate a VSTi knob or slider to respond to CC11.



Wow thank you for mentioning the VMeter. I had no idea this thing existed and it's exactly what I'm looking for. They seem kind of hard to get though - out of stock on the manufacturer's website. That doesn't bode well.


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## rdieters (Dec 15, 2014)

Among others I use the breath controller from TEControl. It's very intuitive for woodwinds and brass VIs like samplemodeling, but not only. You can do swells very nicely and can control just about any parameter. It can be easily set up to send any CC, or even pitch bend/aftertouch. 

http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-mi ... controller

Mike Verta made a good video about it.


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## dfhagai (Dec 16, 2014)

I this: 

https://imageshack.com/a/Ld7b/1

Among other things :


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 16, 2014)

It would be remiss of me not to issue my standard post for such threads....

There's only one game in town for me, and the name of the game is the Avid Artist Mix. The catch - it will only work how we want (controlling midi CCs) in Cubase. It's small form factor, touch motorized long through quality faders and clear channel displays as you flip between modes. Of course it also handles regular volume, pans, auxes etc. Don't bother looking at the other one in the series, the Control - no oLED displays for the 4 faders it has. I know others have had issues with it and the software over the years - maybe I got lucky cos it's rock solid for me and pretty much always has been. Thought I had a problem with Cubase 8, turns out I'd been a complete idiot and set up something wrong.

I switched DAWs a few years ago primarily so I could work in this way. I resented the learning curve and harrumphed for a while, but totally worth it in the end.


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## Ozymandias (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I just cannot seem to enjoy automating by sliding my fingers on an iPad. I have tried, but in the end I prefer a hardware fader.



Is it the lack of tactility or do you find the glass grips your fingers too much?

If it's the latter, it's worth trying a matte protector. They usually allow your finger to glide much more easily.

(Of course, the screen isn't as nice to look at with a protector on, so that's the downside.)


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## Rednas (Dec 16, 2014)

http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X-TOUCH.aspx

Really curious about this one!


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 16, 2014)

Ozymandias @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I just cannot seem to enjoy automating by sliding my fingers on an iPad. I have tried, but in the end I prefer a hardware fader.
> ...



You can't beat hardware. It's more than just vague preference too, I think the concept of non-hardware fader control is fundamentally flawed. You don't want to mix whilst having to actually look at the faders, which you more or less have to with a touchscreen to stop your finger sliding out of the magic zone. With a hardware fader you can put several fingers on at once and mix whilst watching picture, the upcoming info on the daw, anything you need to.

Some of the current iPad controllers look great and provide a lot of bang for your buck, but they'll never replace hardware for me.

The new Behringers were announced ages ago and still aren't with us, are they? For me they wouldn't be an answer - either the form factor is too big with lots of reduncant controls (eg I've never found transport controls useful, far quicker to click around the DAW) while the compact version doesn't have channel displays, rendering it not far off useless. Shame, cos otherwise they look really good.


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## G.R. Baumann (Dec 16, 2014)

just stumbled over this.... 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChEu4S7LnQinYU_l0bM0qEg


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## Ozymandias (Dec 16, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Ozymandias @ Tue Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> ...



I understand that perspective, Guy. Just offering a tip from the dark [and glossy] side. 

Though I favour touchscreens, it's only really because flexibility is my main concern. Horses for courses and all that.


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## mohurwitzmusic (Dec 16, 2014)

With Lemur, once you've tapped a fader, Lemur will "capture" the object and you can slide your finger anywhere on the screen without worrying about going out of bounds. 

Also with Lemur you could make the faders enormous, as I demonstrate here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPN2_pN_IaI#t=1202

My opinion is that "tactile feedback" is non-issue. The moment you even glance at a fader you are engaging your visual system.

Cheers.
MOH


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 16, 2014)

mohurwitzmusic @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> With Lemur, once you've tapped a fader, Lemur will "capture" the object and you can slide your finger anywhere on the screen without worrying about going out of bounds.
> 
> Also with Lemur you could make the faders enormous, as I demonstrate here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPN2_pN_IaI#t=1202
> ...



Respectfully, you've missed my point. With hardware, once you've selected the fader(s) you want, you then don't need to look at it again until you change faders etc. So no need to "even glance" once you're actually doing your mixing. Obviously if you have one fader occupying the entire screen on an iPad, you're probably safe not needing to look there either, but that would seem a tad restrictive in other ways.

I'm delighted if people are happy with non-tactile surfaces, but for me (good) real faders are an order of magnitude more useful.


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## DaddyO (Dec 16, 2014)

dfhagai @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> I this:
> 
> https://imageshack.com/a/Ld7b/1
> 
> Among other things :




I am interested in feedback from anyone who uses this Leap Motion device to control MIDI or audio parameters. It's very affordable and seemingly quite flexible, but is it mappable to CC controllers, and how has it worked for you?


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## mohurwitzmusic (Dec 16, 2014)

There is an app that allows you to assign CCs to the different axes of movement. It works great. It's *very *tiring to use, so I gave up on it, though it may be possible to tweak it. I also have limited desk space so I could never find a good place for it where I didn't accidentally trigger it.


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## dfhagai (Dec 16, 2014)

> I am interested in feedback from anyone who uses this Leap Motion device to control MIDI or audio parameters. It's very affordable and seemingly quite flexible, but is it mappable to CC controllers, and how has it worked for you?



I think Leap Motion is great, and VERY expressive.
It won't replace your keyboards and breath controllers yet, but it's another great way to interact and input natural MIDI curves.

The first half of this video is a bit more informative on the technical side:


You can get all the info you need about GECO MIDI here:
http://uwyn.com/geco/tutorials/


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

Ozymandias @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I just cannot seem to enjoy automating by sliding my fingers on an iPad. I have tried, but in the end I prefer a hardware fader.
> ...



Lack of tactility.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2014)

Marius Masalar @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I had a Novation Nocturn for this for a while but quickly got rid of it—felt cheap and AutoMap is just terrible.
> 
> Now that I use a Panorama P6 as my main controller, I have all the knobs and faders I need, but if I didn't I would strongly consider the non-keyboard P1, also from Panorama. Exact same integration and features, just no keys or pads.



I think the Panorama P1 looks like what I am looking for. Do the faders feel good?


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## Dryden.Chambers (Dec 16, 2014)

+1, just starting here and trying to figure out which way to go, But you can get used Ipad 2's on Craigslist for $150-175 right now, Lemur is 24.99. I know some prefer physical faders, and seen quite a few of the Behringers around.



maestro2be @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> What about an IPad with Lemur? You would have infinite power to control your DAW. Not to mention about every vendor today offers an IPad APP.
> 
> That's what I use.


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## Marius Masalar (Dec 16, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Marius Masalar @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I had a Novation Nocturn for this for a while but quickly got rid of it—felt cheap and AutoMap is just terrible.
> ...


They feel good, yes. 

No wiggle on my P6, and while it's not the long throw distance of a mixer fader, I feel like I can comfortably make precise adjustments. Nice and smooth sliding, with a good amount of resistance so they don't skate around on you.

The P4/6 also have one motorized fader, which is kind of neat, but ultimately the P1 gets you the brains and most of the physical controls of the boards without the keys or extra size. It's a great option for those who have keys but want more controls.

Personally I found most of Novation's hardware (including the beloved Zero series) to be extraordinarily cheap feeling and pretty ugly. I don't mind the ugly so much, but I'm not a fan of cheap.

The P1 also has a nice big screen that shows you the values of the parameters you're controlling, and it's very easy to re-assign MIDI CCs and such right from the hardware. Plus, the transport controls work seamlessly in Logic—I do all my scrolling, stopping, starting, recording, etc. right from my keyboard now. There's even a dedicated undo button and a cycle on/off button so I can quickly re-play multiple takes until I get a tricky line right.

I'm extremely pleased with my P6. Easily the best workflow upgrade I've made in years. I'm just sorry it took me so long to ditch my old keys 

EDIT: It's also worth mentioning Livid Instruments in this discussion...they're extremely expensive but built like beautiful, configurable tanks of MIDI manipulating joy:

http://lividinstruments.com


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## Marius Masalar (Dec 16, 2014)

You may also find this website handy as a quick, sortable overview of controller options:

http://controllers.cc


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## JBZeon (Dec 16, 2014)

There is a lack of quality midi controllers on the market, something simple with 8 faders with some quality .. i also hate lack of tactility on Ipad but What's in the market today?

New behringer X-Touch series, Advertised 9 month ago.... no information.

JLCooper, i know that Hans use one but really worth it?, something which costs about 1500 - 3000$? .. its a LOT of money.

Panorama P1 has not motorized faders and only 49mm long.


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## DaddyO (Dec 16, 2014)

dfhagai @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> > I am interested in feedback from anyone who uses this Leap Motion device to control MIDI or audio parameters. It's very affordable and seemingly quite flexible, but is it mappable to CC controllers, and how has it worked for you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for the heads up. I'm in a an either/or position with regard to either the TEC breath controller or something like this. It seems to me the breath controller would be most effective for brass and winds, while perhaps this one might be better for strings.

**edited to add
Okay, so he uses an app called GECO to map software commands. Sounds and looks great.
**


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## Soundhound (Dec 16, 2014)

Another vote for the P1 here, Jay. The faders feel smooth and solid. I've only had it a couple weeks, but I'm liking it a lot so far. I am interested in the Xtouch when it comes out but this is working nicely for me right now!



EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Marius Masalar @ Mon Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I had a Novation Nocturn for this for a while but quickly got rid of it—felt cheap and AutoMap is just terrible.
> ...


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## Soundhound (Dec 16, 2014)

:shock: That's great! I have one sitting around that my brother, who's even more of a gadget freak than I am (and that's saying something) got for me. When I get a free spell I might try that out, maybe over the holidays. Thanks for posting that!





dfhagai @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> > I am interested in feedback from anyone who uses this Leap Motion device to control MIDI or audio parameters. It's very affordable and seemingly quite flexible, but is it mappable to CC controllers, and how has it worked for you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dryden.Chambers (Dec 16, 2014)

Also worth noting, the guys at Nektar have mentioned to me they are working on a 88 note weighted version of the P series for next year. If the keys feel nice I will get one.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2014)

OK, after watching the videos the Nektar Panorama P1 is wayyyyyy more than i need. I just want 8 "feels good" faders that generate MIDI ccs.

It seems like the only choices are "cheap crappy little device" or "way more than what I need" device.

I just want the hardware equivalent of Yamaha's Faders & Pads iPad app.


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## Lawson. (Dec 27, 2014)

I use Maschine. It works very nicely.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2014)

Lawson. @ Sat Dec 27 said:


> I use Maschine. It works very nicely.



No faders, correct?


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 27, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 27 said:


> OK, after watching the videos the Nektar Panorama P1 is wayyyyyy more than i need. I just want 8 "feels good" faders that generate MIDI ccs.
> 
> It seems like the only choices are "cheap crappy little device" or "way more than what I need" device.
> 
> I just want the hardware equivalent of Yamaha's Faders & Pads iPad app.



I'm totally with you (for mixing and general CC chores). The middle Behringer would be the one, but the fools dropped off the display, making it as useful as a brick. It's kinda surprising to me that after all these years, the reason I switched to Cubase (to use the Avid Artist) is still exactly the same scenario now - the Artist is the right controller and EuCon the right protocol, but Cubase is still the only one that supports CCs. Crazy, doubly so when you consider Avid's own Pro Tools doesn't support CCs either.


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## Marius Masalar (Dec 28, 2014)

There's nothing stopping you from using the Panorama as a dumb MIDI controller, Jay. The integration stuff isn't mandatory—just don't install the software and you have yourself a class-compliant MIDI controller that doesn't feel like Fisher Price made it!


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2014)

Marius Masalar @ Sun Dec 28 said:


> There's nothing stopping you from using the Panorama as a dumb MIDI controller, Jay. The integration stuff isn't mandatory—just don't install the software and you have yourself a class-compliant MIDI controller that doesn't feel like Fisher Price made it!



Thanks Marius. i think the local Sam Ash has it in stock so I will check it out.


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## Marius Masalar (Dec 28, 2014)

Cool. If nothing else it'll give you a chance to see what you make of the hardware itself.

For what it's worth, I often use my P6 in "MIDI mode", especially when not working in Logic. 

In fact they make it easy even if you do install the software (like I have) because there's a dedicated "Internal" button that disables the integration layer and allows you to edit the MIDI assignments and otherwise operate it as a neutral MIDI device. 

And you can obviously toggle back and forth as needed, so you can use the integration to control Logic's transport and then flip to MIDI for working with plugins.

It's exactly the kind of flexibility I was after when I went hunting for a controller, and I'm very pleased to have found it.


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## SymphonicSamples (Dec 28, 2014)

Hey Jay , as Marius said the Panorama P1 is easy to setup and assign all faders , encoders and buttons to whatever you want when using the internal mode . For the internal mode I have all the faders controlling CC data , you can setup the transport buttons in internal mode to control Logic transport functions (just a simple assign keyboard shortcut to P1 buttons) , and you still have the ability to assign your own macros if you want . Great piece of gear for the price and very configurable .


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## PeterKorcek (Dec 28, 2014)

Marius Masalar @ Mon Dec 29 said:


> Cool. If nothing else it'll give you a chance to see what you make of the hardware itself.
> 
> For what it's worth, I often use my P6 in "MIDI mode", especially when not working in Logic.
> 
> ...



Hey, for owners of panorama with keyboard - how is the feel of the keyboard, can you play fast bits on it as well?


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## Marius Masalar (Dec 29, 2014)

No complaints from me. I play piano, so I'm used to playing quick stuff on heavy keys, but since the keys are only semi-weighted I think most people should be fine.

They're definitely heavier than the Alesis synth-action keys I was using before, but I don't feel any slower using them. And the velocity/aftertouch response is a lot more even, which is more important to me.

Unlike many of the others I tested before buying the P6, the keys don't have any annoying bounce or a loud clack when you play. Solid travel, and the keybed isn't super hard.


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## PeterKorcek (Dec 29, 2014)

thanks marius


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## Lawson. (Dec 29, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 27 said:


> Lawson. @ Sat Dec 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I use Maschine. It works very nicely.
> ...



No faders, yes.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 29, 2014)

Lawson. @ Mon Dec 29 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Lawson. @ Sat Dec 27 said:
> ...



Deal breaker for me.


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## dedersen (Dec 29, 2014)

It IS a bit weird that it is so difficult to find a simple box of good quality faders. I don't need fancy mapping options or dozens of knobs and transport buttons. Just give me a row of nice faders with a relatively long throw and I'd be happy. I've gone so far as too consider making one on my own using one of the MIDI controller starter kits.


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## reddognoyz (Dec 29, 2014)

I use the SLK mark zero, it does all that mapping and I don't find that useful for my workflow so I turn it off and use it as simple midi faders, buttons and knobs. 

I so wish there was an automated moving fader solution, (or virtual app for ipad or the like) that supported cc's in DP. I have been begging them for years to allow ALL the cc's to enjoy the privileges afforded to cc#7, which is archaic, about as contemporary as a dx7. 

I guess I am in the minority of their customers being a score top picture guy, but I want to be able to ride the more modern versions of "volume", which is generally thought of by the developers of modern orchestral VI's as an overall set level these days. I want to ride expression and dynamics and vibrato and I'd love to have an eight automated fader mixer, (or virtual mixer as a second choice, I am a realist, it's so much cheaper to develop an app than hardware), that was assigned across all those parameters and would auto-assign to a selected track. Much the way the faderport or the Avid box does. Visual feedback and realtime manipulation, grabbing the fader at it's current position. A blind and dumb fader is no help for that, you have to rewrite the whole section of automation.


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## G.R. Baumann (Dec 30, 2014)

dedersen @ Mon Dec 29 said:


> It IS a bit weird that it is so difficult to find a simple box of good quality faders. I don't need fancy mapping options or dozens of knobs and transport buttons. Just give me a row of nice faders with a relatively long throw and I'd be happy. I've gone so far as too consider making one on my own using one of the MIDI controller starter kits.



expensive though....

http://www.jlcooper.com/_php/product.php?prod=fm4100


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## muk (Dec 30, 2014)

Yes, the faderport would be perfect if it only would allow to write cc data instead of automation data only. It would be great if somebody would make a small box with four or eight automated faders that can write cc data.


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## Polarity (Dec 30, 2014)

KORG nanoKontrol2.
it is better than what it looks.
I also assigned to its numerous buttons the keyswitches of Cinesamples Libraries.


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## dedersen (Dec 30, 2014)

Yeah, I tried the nano kontrol for a while, but the faders just felt too tacky for me. And way, way too short. Otherwise it would have been perfect. A Korg MiniKontrol would be great.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 30, 2014)

muk @ Tue Dec 30 said:


> Yes, the faderport would be perfect if it only would allow to write cc data instead of automation data only. It would be great if somebody would make a small box with four or eight automated faders that can write cc data.



Nice, but a) yes expensive and crucially b) no display, so it's yet another brick.

I tells y'all, the only solution (with a small footprint) is the Avid Artist / Cubase combo. I'd probably still be on Sonar now if this wasn't the case.


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## dedersen (Dec 30, 2014)

Guy, you keep pushing me towards the Avid Artist Mix. It's a pretty hefty price-tag, though, but you are right - it does seem to tick a lot of the boxes. How much have you felt that the motorized faders have added to your workflow? That is one of the big selling points about the Artist Mix, of course. Also, how much of a hassle is the integration in Cubase? I understand that there are a few hoops to go trough in order to get it working with CC automation_


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 30, 2014)

dedersen @ Tue Dec 30 said:


> Guy, you keep pushing me towards the Avid Artist Mix. It's a pretty hefty price-tag, though, but you are right - it does seem to tick a lot of the boxes. How much have you felt that the motorized faders have added to your workflow? That is one of the big selling points about the Artist Mix, of course. Also, how much of a hassle is the integration in Cubase? I understand that there are a few hoops to go trough in order to get it working with CC automation_



The motorized faders are pretty essential. If you have a long cc1 stretch (say) and there's just one part that needs tweaking, it's a breeze with this. Of course depending on the part you can manually draw in, but I do like doing this by feel on a fader - usually quicker too, though it depends on the circumstance.

The setup isn't really as much of a hassle as I've sometimes made out, once you're head's around how to make it work. Critically, the compromise you have to make is resign yourself to working in the project window not key editor for CC work, I can't satisfactorally combine CCs from two sources (the Artist and the modwheel say) in the Key Editor.

In terms of one-off setup, in Cubase just add the controller as a remote device, and set up the CC Automation page like so:

GLOBAL RECORD DESTINATION ON CONFLICT - Automation Track
GLOBAL AUTOMATION MERGE MODE - Replace 2 - Last Value

In day to day use, make sure the automation is set to write, assign your Quick Controls how you want them (you can copy / paste / save / load / drag / drop and have it all set up in the template) and in Artist just press and hold EQ to enter the Quick Controls mode. Then (shift) flip followed by channel to line up all 8 controls for a track in a row. As with anything, all that is 2nd nature after a while and you don't even think about it - I had to just do it now to remember what the actual buttons are cos I just do it without thinking in use.

(I'm saving this post cos people keep asking me about this!)


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## Polarity (Dec 30, 2014)

dedersen @ Tue 30 Dec said:


> Yeah, I tried the nano kontrol for a while, but the faders just felt too tacky for me. And way, way too short. Otherwise it would have been perfect. A Korg MiniKontrol would be great.



have you tried the nanoKontrol 1 or the nanoKontrol 2 ?
I'm not sure if they feel identical.


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## Resoded (Dec 30, 2014)

I use the Novation zero sl mk2. Mostly I use the sliders for cc1 and cc11 but I also use the buttons for keyswitching between articulations. Everything works great for me, except I found the automap difficult to use for programming the buttons. But it's sort of a set and forget thing, I did it once and it works the way I want it to. I would recommend it, but a bit of patience may be needed for the initial programming.


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## dedersen (Dec 30, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 30 said:


> Critically, the compromise you have to make is resign yourself to working in the project window not key editor for CC work, I can't satisfactorally combine CCs from two sources (the Artist and the modwheel say) in the Key Editor.


Ah yeah, that's the issue I keep forgetting about whenever I start eyeing the Artist Mix again. Not sure I'd be willing to give up writing CC in the piano roll.


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## mohurwitzmusic (Dec 30, 2014)

Hi All!

I don't think I've ever gone on an online rant before, but I feel like I must chime in here. Of course I have a vested interest in this topic since I make and sell a touch controller for Lemur, however I also speak as a composer who has struggled with this issue. So here goes... 

It simply baffles me why someone would spend hundreds (thousands!) on a hardware controller when Lemur is available for iPad. With a hardware controller you are totally limited by what the controller can do. With Lemur, anything you imagine-- and I do literally mean anything-- can be created. I've even seen Lemur emulations of the classic Pong video game. With my iPad, I have access to an infinite variety of controllers, all in a single, elegant, compact device. If I had to do this with hardware devices I'd need thousands of dollars and a whole extra desk to store them. Plus, I get...an iPad! Not to mention that Lemur allows a generous 8 ports (128 channels!). Also, hardware breaks...All. The. Time. Maybe I am too aggressive with my controllers (I did get the nickname Lead Foot when I was a kid), but I have already been through 3 MIDI keyboards.

It reminds me of the digital/analog discussions I see popping up over and over again. Sure, tape may have a certain "magic" to it, but would any of us really give up the power of a digital workstation and go back to tape? Whatever "magic" you gain by using a hardware controller you lose absolutely everything else...and there is *a lot *else! 

For many people, this magic is the "tactile feedback" from a hardware controller. I know I have commented on this before, but let me expand because I really think this is a non-issue. There are indeed differences between hardware and a touch screen but they don't affect us:

For one, it's just not true that there is no tactile feedback on a touch screen: your finger is on the iPad. The only device that really has no tactile feedback is the Leap Motion. And anyways, do any of us really decide how much to move a fader by how it *feels*? No I think we make this decision by how our music *sounds*. The instant you glance over at your fader for even a nanosecond you have stopped relying on tactile feedback. Unless you are blind, I don't think any of us locate our faders using touch alone. Also, with Lemur, once you've touched a fader it will "capture" your finger and prevent you from going "out of bounds" so you can turn your eyes away from it.

Yes it's true that you can "pinch" a physical fader, but I don't understand why this is necessary, since ultimately the muscular movements associated with moving a virtual or hardware fader are essentially the same. If it makes you feel better, you can put your fingers in a titty-twist position before you touch the iPad. 

I think part of the resistance (pardon the pun) to MIDI touch controllers comes from the observation that it's more difficult to type on a touch screen than on a real keyboard. While this is true, the two are hardly comparable. The muscular movements involved in typing are totally different than what we need. In any case, given a large-enough touch screen, I can type plenty fast. Most of us have only ever experienced trying to type on a tiny iPhone.

I'm fully aware that Lemur has a learning curve-- like all things do, including a hardware controller. However, this is exactly why I created Composer Tools: so that you don't need to know anything about Lemur in order to have a very powerful controller. Even still, learning to do simple things in Lemur couldn't be easier. Just drag a fader into Lemur and assign it to the CC# and output port. If you wanted something custom built it surely would cost less than something like the Avid Artist Mix ($1259!!!). 

Anyhoo-- I respect that other people have different opinions/needs. For me, switching to an iPad was like opening a whole new world. I realize that many musicians have a strong positive emotional connection to physical faders: the allure of large mix consoles; the nostalgia associated with old devices. However when you compare a touch controller and any hardware controller side-by-side, the touch controller clearly wins in terms of functionality/price. I don't ever wonder "can my device do this?" because the answer is always yes. ~o)


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## dedersen (Dec 30, 2014)

That Lemur template you have DOES look very cool. I don't know, I have been trying to jump on the Lemur/TouchOSC band wagon a few times, but last I tried it was terribly convoluted to get things working with a Windows + Android combination.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 30, 2014)

mohurwitzmusic @ Tue Dec 30 said:


> For one, it's just not true that there is no tactile feedback on a touch screen: your finger is on the iPad. The only device that really has no tactile feedback is the Leap Motion. And anyways, do any of us really decide how much to move a fader by how it *feels*? No I think we make this decision by how our music *sounds*.o)



Speaking only for me:

1. Dragging my fingers up/down on a touch screen feels icky. I just don't like it. Whether an iPad or Slate's behemoth, I don't like it.

2. Those of us who came up working on consoles for 40 years still very much make decisions by how it feels as well as how it sounds.


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## Daryl (Dec 30, 2014)

I have a proper Lemur, but I still wouldn't use it in preference to a physical fader. The Lemur is great for some things, but for me a physical fader is much better when it comes to writing automation.

D


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 30, 2014)

Mohurwitz - remarkable things can be done with the iPad. But I'm afraid it really isn't the same at all, at least to me. Typically one might want to balance several things at once, while looking at picture. It's just not possible to anything like the same finesse and ease with a touchscreen. Actually the typing analogy is quite apt - I'm typing this on an iPad and it's not bad, but about half the speed I could type at on a real keyboard. Maybe less. And that's before I try to highlight, cut and paste etc. It's not dissimilar to mixing - it can be done on a touchscreen but it's slower in practical use and, well, less satisfying.

It may be partly generational of course. Some kids will probably never touch a real keyboard and be super-adept with a touchscreen. I've been using real mixers for 35 years... It's definitely hardwired into how I work.

The Slate thing will be interesting. It's something I'd never want to use myself, and I'm not aware of any dubbing facility or recording studio using it as their routine console, but perhaps it will come in time. How much of that is generational and how much practical useability, it's hard to say. But I will say this - much as I want real faders, and think the virtual equivalent is found wanting, I think other input methods are better for most other composing / producing / mixing chores. Jog/shuttles are a waste of space imo, and I'm happy to see them consigned to the history books. So I do hope I'm not a complete Luddite.


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## pkm (Dec 30, 2014)

mohurwitzmusic @ Tue Dec 30 said:


> It simply baffles me why someone would spend hundreds (thousands!) on a hardware controller when Lemur is available for iPad.



It's simple for me.

I have used an iPad with TouchOSC and physical faders. Real faders work better for me, feel better in my hand, give me more tactile feedback, and end up with better results. Is that all worth more money to me? Yes, absolutely.

The biggest differences to me are 

1) if the angle of my finger movement changes even slightly on an iPad, the length of the fader effectively changes. A 1 centimeter movement straight up and down moves the fader differently than a 1 centimeter movement at 10 degrees. This can be beneficial if you are in total control of your fingers and want more or less "fader", but I like to not have to look at my finger at all times to be sure.

2) A slight change in finger pressure or the angle of my finger on an iPad will change the position of the fader. If the tip of my finger stays in the same place but more of the pad of my finger makes contact with the touchscreen, the fader will move, and sometimes get confused and bounce between two values. Again, if you are in total control, this could potentially be a good thing, but I only want the fader to move when I want it to move and a real fader doesn't require that much attention.

3) The amount of natural oil on your fingers (and on different parts of your fingers) and on the iPad screen changes the resistance of your finger movement. While a well constructed physical fader is smooth throughout, I find my finger bumping and slipping unevenly on an iPad screen.

Oh, and if I want to create something and not be constricted by the limitations of my real faders, I do have an iPad too with TouchOSC and Lemur (but I have never felt the need to do that in the years I've had an iPad). I mainly use it for keyswitches. My TouchOSC template is almost all buttons.

So there you go, hopefully you are less baffled now.


EDIT: The other thing is - sure, there are more features of a Lemur template, and some of them are probably very nice to have. But I'd rather have the core features (simple faders and knobs) that I would use 95% of the time of the topmost quality, instead of sacrificing it for extras. I could buy some fancy guitar with a Kaoss pad, "robot" tuners, sustainer pickups, an Evertune bridge, built-in fuzz and delay, and whatever other fancy guitar things are out there, but if a regular ol' strat played better, I'd buy it.


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## dedersen (Dec 30, 2014)

Absolutely agree with Paul's points above, especially regarding the "bumpiness" of using touch screen faders.


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## mohurwitzmusic (Dec 30, 2014)

Cool thanks for your responses. I'm very interested in what people have to say about these things.

I won't make a point of disagreeing with anyone when it comes to personal feelings.

My comments are:

Guy:

- Balancing many things at once is really no different on an iPad and just as fast and just as elegant (at least to me). I mean, what are we really talking about here? It seems to me all we are talking about is putting your finger down and moving your wrist along an axis. I have no problems simultaneously mixing multiple channels with Lemur faders without looking--- especially since the faders capture my fingers (I really can't stress this "capturing" feature enough). Truthfully, I never look down at my iPad except once my finger has grabbed the fader. From there it's all "feel" and "sound". The Lemur faders are capable of extremely fine detail.

- I have to disagree that virtual instrument control is at all similar to typing. If anything, typing is similar to piano playing: typing has many rapid lunging movements of individual fingers to buttons; there are many horizontal and vertical movements that occur rapidly in succession in all directions from all fingers. I mean, I'm just now sitting in front of my computer keyboard with my iPad above it and I'm trying to imagine what kind of musical data I might be entering if I mapped my keystrokes onto the iPad. I can't think of what that musical data might be. It would almost be nonsensical from a musical perspective; like dozens of keyswitches being fired off rapidly in succession. Virtual Instrument control requires mostly linear movements of the wrist/arm/fingers in a plane parallel to the floor, with the occasional button press. 


PKM: 
-I don't experience my finger slipping off the iPad. But then again, my wife has great hand cream. 

-While it is true if you rotate your finger outwardly you geometrically restrict its vertical movement, I just don't see how this limitation suddenly goes away once you are on a real fader. The impinging factor is in your finger joint, not the mechanics of the fader. Personally, I use mostly my wrist/arm and so my hand always stays in a fixed angle. 

- About jumping values. Yes, I agree and I hadn't considered this. It is true, it is difficult to land exactly on the spot where the fader head currently is located. I see that on average my finger lands with an error of 1/127th and 5/127th. It is worth mentioning, however, that this same "problem" turns into a feature if you want the ability to jump to a value-- something a physical fader cannot do. 

You actually have given me a great idea. Knowing this, I could write a code that would mitigate this error. Given that on average I'm off by max 5/127ths I could make it so that the initial pad press compensates for this. Or I could make it so that initial pad presses near the fader head use the starting value. 

Thanks all for your comments. I enjoy hearing your opinions! Happy new year, btw!
Best
MOH


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## mohurwitzmusic (Dec 30, 2014)

EDIT: So I just quickly checked out something in Lemur 5 that I had not tried before. The faders now have a cursor mode called "Relative" which eliminates this jumping problem completely. 

Looks like I need to seriously consider switching all the sliders in Composer Tools into Faders with Relative cursor mode! The downside is you lose the ability to jump to a value. 

FYI...There is another cursor mode called "Cap Only" which reduces the error consistently down to 1/127th because you can't change the fader unless your finger is in the cap. Again, though you lose the ability to jump to values.

So...thanks!
MOH


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## pkm (Dec 30, 2014)

mohurwitzmusic @ Tue Dec 30 said:


> Cool thanks for your responses. I'm very interested in what people have to say about these things.
> 
> I won't make a point of disagreeing with anyone when it comes to personal feelings.
> 
> ...



Happy new year to you too!

What I mean is, on a fader, it has only two directions of movement - up and down. You can physically feel the fader's speed under your fingers. The length of the fader is always consistent. On an iPad screen, you can move your finger in any direction, so if there is any diagonal slant to your up and down movement, the length of the fader changes, because the fader only recognizes the movement on the Y axis while I might also be moving on the X axis. And I don't have all the tactile feedback of the speed of the fader because all I can feel is the movement of my finger, which does not directly correspond to the touchscreen fader. With a physical fader, I know I'm only on the Y axis, and I know exactly how much and how fast it is moving.


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## mohurwitzmusic (Dec 30, 2014)

Ah OK. Yes it is true that sometimes wide x-axis movements of the fingers do cause the fader to move up and down. This is mostly because it's very hard to move your hand in a horizontal plane without some subtlle movement along the vertical plane.

If I put my finger on the fader cap and simply wiggle it back and forth horizontally I still move the fader vertically on average of 1/127th. Mind you, I'm shaking it in a rather Parkinsonian way in order to produce this error.

I'm afraid I can't see a way to change this. 

My technique is to not use the finger tips. I actually extend my distal and middle phalanges (I had to look that up) and use more of the pad of the finger. This doesn't cause any confusion in Lemur. I suppose it has a mechanism of calculating the average area of a pad press. In fact I can put my whole finger on the fader and it still only recognizes one point--the first point that was pressed.

Best
MOH


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## Cowtothesky (Dec 30, 2014)

If someone hasn't already mentioned it, you might want to check out the Presonus Faderport. It is only 1 fader, but it is a nice long motorized fader. I'm not spending $1,000 bucks on a fader only box (although it does look very nice). No way, jose.  But, this is about $120 - $130, and works as a compromise. 

I am amazed that there isn't a more saturated controller market. The choices are sad. I really want an all in one box, including a full 88-key weighted keyboard that is thin for desktop use, at least 4 - 8 long motorized faders, and ultra-high quality mod wheels, all fully designed for the VI engineer. Nothing fancy. Just the basics in good quality. Companies like Korg, Roland, and Yamaha, are totally missing the boat on this market IMO.


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## Dr.Quest (Dec 30, 2014)

mohurwitzmusic @ Tue Dec 30 said:


> Hi All!
> 
> I don't think I've ever gone on an online rant before, but I feel like I must chime in here. Of course I have a vested interest in this topic since I make and sell a touch controller for Lemur, however I also speak as a composer who has struggled with this issue. So here goes...
> 
> It simply baffles me why someone would spend hundreds (thousands!) on a hardware controller when Lemur is available for iPad. With a hardware controller you are totally limited by what the controller can do. With Lemur, anything you imagine-- and I do literally mean anything-- can be created. I've even seen Lemur emulations of the classic Pong video game. With my iPad, I have access to an infinite variety of controllers, all in a single, elegant, compact device. If I had to do this with hardware devices I'd need thousands of dollars and a whole extra desk to store them. Plus, I get...



I just started using Composer Tools in Lemur on an iMac. I can say it is brilliant and Michael is a great guy. Once I started using it I wanted to incorporate the Spitfire UACC switching. CT had some utility buttons that I easily programmed inside the app for my most useD UACC switches. After talking to Michael, it sounds like he is looking into incorporating them and that would really wrap it up. I can understand the fader issue but keyswitches and buttons of any sort are a treat in Lemur and CT. And if you are doing any Hybrid stuff, the metaball controllers are just genius.
Can't recommend it enough if you are into really good tech and hybrid orchestrations.


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## ch4rles (Dec 31, 2014)

rdieters @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> Among others I use the breath controller from TEControl. It's very intuitive for woodwinds and brass VIs like samplemodeling, but not only. You can do swells very nicely and can control just about any parameter. It can be easily set up to send any CC, or even pitch bend/aftertouch.
> 
> http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-mi ... controller



Yes I have the TEControl too and it's really excellent. Leap motion looks also interesting, may get one.


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## muk (Dec 31, 2014)

Cowtothesky @ Tue Dec 30 said:


> If someone hasn't already mentioned it, you might want to check out the Presonus Faderport. It is only 1 fader, but it is a nice long motorized fader. I'm not spending $1,000 bucks on a fader only box (although it does look very nice). No way, jose.  But, this is about $120 - $130, and works as a compromise.



It has been mentioned. Two problems with it: it doesn't have a channel strip, and it doesn't send cc data! You can only use it to send automation data. That makes it unuseable for me. Otherwise it would have been great.


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## Cowtothesky (Dec 31, 2014)

muk @ Wed Dec 31 said:


> Cowtothesky @ Tue Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > If someone hasn't already mentioned it, you might want to check out the Presonus Faderport. It is only 1 fader, but it is a nice long motorized fader. I'm not spending $1,000 bucks on a fader only box (although it does look very nice). No way, jose.  But, this is about $120 - $130, and works as a compromise.
> ...



Yea, that's correct. Can't use it to send cc data, which is a bummer. Forgot about that.


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## mohurwitzmusic (Dec 31, 2014)

Thanks for the kind words! 

Indeed UACC support is coming for Composer Tools as soon as I get back from holiday--- thanks for bringing it to my attention. 

I will add the ability to send discrete values of CCs from the keyboard.

Thanks!
MOH


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## Polarity (Dec 31, 2014)

@mohurwitzmusic
as others replied to you, with whom in general I agree, touchpad for CC controllers made me not feel at home.
It's not my thing.
25 years of physical knobs and faders are hard to forget..
I just feel confortable with physical controllers...
yep, to be able also to move more than one knob/fader without having to watch them is fundamental. They can work even with closed eyes .

One only thing I found great and unsurpassable on ipad: the Omnisphere Orb controller,
but you have its visual exact counterpart on the computer screen.


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## mohurwitzmusic (Dec 31, 2014)

Oh I totally am aware that people (myself included) have a strong positive emotional response to physical hardware! Gear nostalgia is a powerful force, indeed.

I just don't want people who are on the fence to get the wrong idea about what is possible/not possible. Maybe I will do a video showing people how I can control multiple faders at once on the iPad without looking, and control the parameters to minute detail, within 1/127th, and also discuss some of these ergonomic issues.

Thanks!
MOH


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 31, 2014)

mohurwitzmusic @ Wed Dec 31 said:


> Oh I totally am aware that people (myself included) have a strong positive emotional response to physical hardware! Gear nostalgia is a powerful force, indeed.
> 
> I just don't want people who are on the fence to get the wrong idea about what is possible/not possible. Maybe I will do a video showing people how I can control multiple faders at once on the iPad without looking, and control the parameters to minute detail, within 1/127th, and also discuss some of these ergonomic issues.
> 
> ...



It is not nostalgia. It is feel. It is like asking a trained pianist to be happy trying to play Chopin expressively on an unweighted keyboard.


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## Polarity (Dec 31, 2014)

exactly


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## JonFairhurst (Dec 31, 2014)

Controllers are like sex.

Some prefer the variety available on a connected tablet. For others, it's all about about the feel and interaction of the real thing.

Keep in mind that there's no rule that says you have to choose one approach exclusively over the other.


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## chimuelo (Dec 31, 2014)

Actually I am happier playing Fantasie Impromptu by Chopin on s semi weighted controller.
I can last 3-4 times longer.
I had to do a Grand Piano gig a few years ago doing classical and standards and was horrified by how weak my hands became from doing years of BOOV-BOOV-BOOV ticka-ticka-ticka-chicka-Chaa...stuff.


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## minimidi (Dec 31, 2014)

JonFairhurst @ Wed Dec 31 said:


> Controllers are like sex.



My girlfriend's performances have been greatly enhanced after practicing with the breath controller...


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 31, 2014)

minimidi @ Wed Dec 31 said:


> JonFairhurst @ Wed Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > Controllers are like sex.
> ...



And we wonder why there are so few females here :(


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## synthetic (Dec 31, 2014)

I picked up a used Peavey 1600x fader controller on Craigslist a few months back. It had a bad battery so I think I paid $60 for it. I really like it, very flexible and tons of options. I was worried that the faders were too short – I've bought many "mini" controllers that just sit in the garage. But the Peavey feels nice.


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## jaddne (Dec 31, 2014)

Michael,

I downloaded Composer Tools yesterday and is its absolutely fantastic! It's well thought out, very powerful, & a breeze to set up custom presets... Congrats!

I for one am very comfortable w/ touch control. This discussion reminds me of the smartphone pre & post iPhone... & physical keyboard limitations vs touch... Where are all those built in keyboard smartphones now?

Happy New Year,
Joe


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## pkm (Dec 31, 2014)

jaddne @ Wed Dec 31 said:


> This discussion reminds me of the smartphone pre & post iPhone... & physical keyboard limitations vs touch... Where are all those built in keyboard smartphones now?



If I had to fit my MIDI controller in my pocket every day, I'd use a touchscreen too, but luckily I don't  Portability and size aren't a concern to me.


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## Eric George (Dec 31, 2014)

jaddne @ Wed Dec 31 said:


> Michael,
> 
> I downloaded Composer Tools yesterday and is its absolutely fantastic! It's well thought out, very powerful, & a breeze to set up custom presets... Congrats!



+1

I also grabbed this last night and think you did an excellent job on it.


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## Dr.Quest (Dec 31, 2014)

jaddne @ Wed Dec 31 said:


> Michael,
> 
> I downloaded Composer Tools yesterday and is its absolutely fantastic! It's well thought out, very powerful, & a breeze to set up custom presets... Congrats!
> 
> ...



It is good, isn't it? I was concerned with the price at first but once I got it I find it amazing. It's so easy to program and at least on my set up, Lemur works flawlessly.
Once we get some UACC in there for theSpitfire users, it will be top notch!
Have a great New Year everyone!


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## Dspec1 (Dec 31, 2014)

Speaking of Composer Tools, does it play well with Yosemite? Anyone have any issues?


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## Dr.Quest (Jan 1, 2015)

No issues what so ever! Fast and efficient.


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## kclements (Jan 1, 2015)

Dr.Quest @ Thu Jan 01 said:


> No issues what so ever! Fast and efficient.



Hi Dr. Q

Are you using you ipad setup via wireless midi or do you have it hard wired in? I haven't had a lot of good luck with ad hok networks. But if I use my local network, it seems to work fine.

Cheers
kc


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## dedersen (Jan 3, 2015)

I am curious, for those of you using a tablet as a MIDI controller, how are you actually positioning your tablet appropriately? Having it flat on the table really doesn't seem to work for me. Any tricks for perhaps attaching it on top of a MIDI keyboard at an angle?


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## mohurwitzmusic (Jan 3, 2015)

Since my iPad replaced all my hardware controllers, I created a simple piano cover out of foam which I wrapped in a cheapish leathery material. I used a spray adhesive to adhere the material onto the foam, and then used an X-ACTO knife to carve out spaces on the underside of the foam to make room for the knobs/sliders so that the cover would sit flush on the piano.

Looks great!!! I think it cost 40 bucks to make. Took about an hour to do.

I went here for the materials: http://www.foammart.com/


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## kurtvanzo (Jan 3, 2015)

I have hardware controllers and ipad controllers, but I actually prefer foot pedals for CC's- keeps my hands free for playing. Using a pedal to USB adapter ANY pedal can be used-even cheap ones. They just came out with a quad version for 4 pedals! 

http://www.midiexpression.com

Comes with small app with separate control for each pedal (pedals are auto detected but can be changed) with midi channel, CC number and a curve adjuster (for those funky pedals you love) for each pedal.They all come in as one device over multiple midi channels! Brilliant. I have one yamaha FC-7, a Line 6 expression pedal, even a sustain pedal works... All to trigger Individual CC's (that can also be changed on the fly) it's been working great. 

Best part is the adapter is $49 (and you can find pedals for under $20). The quad version is $119- but four pedals for control is ideal (volume, expression, vibrato, lo-pass filter!). I use them much more than my mod wheel.

And I do own a Avid artist mix ($1000) but it does better mixing protools than trying to grab it as I'm playing with 2 hands. Pedals are more intuitive once you set it up. =o


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## JBZeon (Jan 3, 2015)

dedersen @ Sat Jan 03 said:


> I am curious, for those of you using a tablet as a MIDI controller, how are you actually positioning your tablet appropriately? Having it flat on the table really doesn't seem to work for me. Any tricks for perhaps attaching it on top of a MIDI keyboard at an angle?



On desktop, to the left of the TS/Keyboard, mounted on a Alesis IO Dock II, midi wired, without the ***** of wifi latency, ipad is always charged in use.


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## wbacer (Jun 24, 2015)

Has anyone tried using Avid's S3 or SSL's Nucleus with Logic X?


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## jononotbono (Aug 4, 2015)

I have just bought the MK Transport and C_Brains for Lemur. I love it. My iPad is now useful. I will buy Composers Tools soon (there are a few libraries on offer at the minute that I want to buy first) and can't wait to use it (if what I have just bought is anything to go by). I am, however, going to eventually save for a JLCooper MasterFader. I'm actually sick of buying cheap hardware that doesn't really work very well and now would rather buy quality gear that will last for a long time. I don't think you can beat physical faders (and believe me, I'm loving the iPad as a Touch controller with Cubase Pro 8 at the minute) and for me, when controlling Midi Dynamics, Expression, Volume etc I want some really good faders, that aren't tiny, are built to last and give me tactile control. You get what you pay for. The same goes for Keyboard controllers. Most of the ones I have owned have felt like Dogs Brown so I'd rather just pay out and buy something decent.

The iPad with Lemur for use as a touch controller works like a charm with C Pro 8. I would just rather have physical faders for CCs.

Jono


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## samphony (Aug 5, 2015)

I personally use a Peavey PC1600x since years. If it dies one day I would go with the JL Cooper ES4 or ES8.


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## mushanga (Aug 5, 2015)

jononotbono said:


> I would just rather have physical faders for CCs


I just bought an iCon iControls Pro for this very reason.

http://www.icon-global.com/Controllers_midi+recording+controllers_icontrols+Pro.htm


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## chimuelo (Aug 5, 2015)

Love to hear from someone using the Quad USB Pedal device mentioned above from

http://www.midiexpression.com/

I have a Physis K4 and it is really the ultimate controller for any attached devices.
If the USB device from these guys has software that allows settings such as 0-127, where start and destination targets have different values, i.e. 45-110 rather than 0-127, I will get one just for general purposes and back up.


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