# Where Have the Master Videogame/Movie Composers Gone?



## Pancakes (Jun 30, 2021)

I'm 38-39 years old. I can't remember which  - but in my day I fell in love with the master composers that could compose in several different styles in one soundtrack. Some of these masters would even take it to the next level and introduce fusion soundtracks that would combine multiple styles and genres into a single track. For me one of the most prominent examples of one of these masters going with fusion in a soundtrack would be the opening CG movie for Soul Blade on Playstation. For those of you who are too young to know what I'm talking about *here is a link to the opening*: Soul Blade Opening Movie

Listening to this music, it is obvious to me that the composer(s) are people who LOVE music and have studied music in many different forms. 

These days however... the prevailing style of music in the west particularly is less about understanding music and more about IMPLYING that something meaningful is being conveyed through a series of DRONES and CLICKS and half broken/detuned instruments. Which is fine. And fun. But it is something that has become cynically commercial these days for composers to side step musicality in favor of pre-packaged drone sets and pops and clicks and thumps that sample libraries are selling by the dozens. And I'm speaking particularly when it comes to soundtracks.

So I'm just wondering what has happened to the old school philosophy of the fusionists who actually put musicality at the forefront? 

You're welcome to disagree with me. But this is what I am thinking for a while now.


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## darkmagi250 (Jun 30, 2021)

Well, the Japanese, and the West have pretty much diverged musically by the early 2000s. The Japanese continued with the tradition which include strong melodies and harmonies. This ideal was carried over from the the 8-bit and 16-bit era of gaming (NES. SMS, Genesis, SNES). On the other hand, the West embraced the cinematic styles and trends of Hollywood.
And Soul Blade, being developed by the Japanese, is an example of this ideology.

I actually wrote a paper on this topic last semester, called "The Reapplication of Melody In The Modern Western AAA Video Game Score".

A big reason behind the importance of melody back in the 80s and 90s, was because of the limitations of the hardware the composers had to work with. The NES had only 5 channels, 3 of which were used for tones. "Limitation breeds creativity". You pretty much had to have a good soundtrack back then to get at least "decent" reviews.
Back in that day you just couldn't create "drone-like" scores, it would make the gameplay experience dull and boring.

It is not so much that musicality has disappeared from many modern scores, it has been reapplied in a way that drives the story, and/or gameplay. And to do that, sometimes you need drones, soundscapes, etc.


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## Pancakes (Jul 1, 2021)

This is the song where I first learned to appreciate the bass. *Searching For Friends Final Fantasy VI*
And then this disco beat implemented in order to celebrate a military victory was an epiphany for me. *Victory Fanfare Final Fantasy VI**.*

And what you say is true. But I think the biggest factor is the fact that composers are allowing the industry to shape their music more than their music is shaping the industry. Because the old master composers shaped the industry in their own image. Like for example, I have no proof of this but back in the day it seemed as if all the composers were having a underground battle over who could make the most amazing woodland RPG themes. 

There are some amazing composers out there today who have a style that appeals to me. I'm still playing around in Borderlands 3 and some of the tracks are very juicy. But still... going back to the two tracks I posted at the top. The fusion of styles such as wrapping a military fanfare around a disco beat. Seems to be a lost art in the industry unless I'm missing something.


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## darkmagi250 (Jul 1, 2021)

Pancakes said:


> I'm still playing around in Borderlands 3 and some of the tracks are very juicy.


That's because Jesper Kyd is awesome! He had been writing music on computers ever since the days of the C64, and he was active in the demoscene for some time. So he experiments with hardware/software and pushes it to its limits to create unique sounds.




Pancakes said:


> Seems to be a lost art in the industry unless I'm missing something.


Oh it's still around, you have to look into the Indie video game industry. It is teeming with soundtracks that practice the style that people like you and I enjoy. One off the top of my head that I enjoyed is *Risk of Rain 2.*

So I wouldn't say that it is a lost art, you just have to dig a little deeper, or dig a different hole.


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## Vlzmusic (Jul 2, 2021)

Let me disagree pretty strongly on that one. 🙃 I am a veteran player from circa 1989 or so, and while I have sweet memories throughout the years - recent decade was something of a huge step up in the AAA music soundtrack department, starting with the mouth watering *The Last of Us* back in 2013, through staggering works Austin Wintory has done in things like *Assassin Creed Syndicate*, *The Journey*, *Abzu* etc.

To the enormous epic sounds of *God of War* 2018 by Bear McCreary, which, if you ask for my personal opinion, are better than TSFH.

There are also hidden gems here and there, such as *The Vampyr*.

Now throw in Japanese works, if you are into the genre, from the legendary *Mario Galaxy* back in the day, to the likes of *Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch*, or my favorite Japanese game ever *Breath of the Wild*, you are in for a threat...


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## JGRaynaud (Jul 2, 2021)

Pancakes said:


> And then this disco beat implemented in order to celebrate a military victory was an epiphany for me. *Victory Fanfare Final Fantasy VI**.*


[...]


Pancakes said:


> But still... going back to the two tracks I posted at the top. The fusion of styles such as wrapping a military fanfare around a disco beat. Seems to be a lost art in the industry unless I'm missing something.


There are still stuff like that nowadays. The latest example I have in mind is from League of Legends and it's been released two months ago : 

In my opinion it's just that way more video games are released nowadays, so it requires to search in the mass of soundtracks available to find something you'll truly enjoy.


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## GtrString (Jul 2, 2021)

I just listened to the new Boss Baby soundtrack, and found a pretty wide variety of styles there. There was hybrid orchestral, dramedy, horror, pop/rock, singer/ songwriter, musical, 80s rock and much more in a beautiful blend. A lot of the tracks had sections in completely different styles.

The style variety may be a little harder to identify now, because the productions sounds so unified and polished, but the blend of styles are definitely in contemporary releases to my ears. The composers must also be allowed to do it, though..


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## Dietz (Jul 2, 2021)

JGRaynaud said:


> [...]
> 
> There are still stuff like that nowadays. The latest example I have in mind is from League of Legends and it's been released two months ago :
> 
> In my opinion it's just that way more video games are released nowadays, so it requires to search in the mass of soundtracks available to find something you'll truly enjoy.



Great stuff!! Sounds like Jamiroquai's imaginary take on "Star Trek meets Mannix meets Magnum P.I. meets Best-Of-All-Other-Late-70ies-TV-Series like Streets Of San Francisco". :-D Fantastic production, BTW.


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## MarcusD (Jul 2, 2021)

Pancakes said:


> *here is a link to the opening*: Soul Blade Opening Movie


Now that's a blast from the past! Fantastic soundtrack and still one of the best game intro pieces.


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## Henning (Jul 2, 2021)

Been doing music for games for over 20 years. No project was alike for me. Always different challenges, always different music. I did some music lately set in a medieval fantasy world but inhabited by warrior cats and dogs. Absolute fun to do! Here's for example the title screen music:


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## mybadmemory (Jul 2, 2021)

Most of them are still around. Uematsu, Mitsuda, Kikuta, Shimomura, Kondo, and many of those who wrote the classic themes of the 90s are still active composers in the industry to this day.

I just think, as with almost all big stars with long careers, their own taste change, and after a number of years they might want to do something new for a challenge, that isn't nessecarily what the fans want. 

There are many new composers though, like Yasunori Nishiki of Octopath Traveler, who proudly carry on their legacy of melody and harmony.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 2, 2021)

Maybe the move towards more cinematic gaming experiences in the AAA space has put creative directors into a mindset of not letting the music distract from the dialogue. A few series with modern entries below that have awesome OSTs that aren’t just simple underscoring

God of War
Gears of War
Mass Effect
Last of Us
Halo
Dark Souls/Bloodborne
Elder Scrolls

That’s just from a perusal of my Apple Music library. I’m sure I could find more if I did through my game lists.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 2, 2021)

Generally I don't think that a cinematic approach is right for video games. Gameplay-wise they suck since AAA devs have started trying to make them look and feel more like movies, and the same goes for the music. It's a very mistaken and backwards approach.


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## gtrwll (Jul 2, 2021)

I think the Japanese games - especially in the JRPG genre - excel in diverse soundtracks that span different genres. It’s not unusual to hear e.g. jazz, waltzes, modern cinematic pieces, rock/metal, some electronic genre that I can’t even name and ethnic pieces - all in one game. But it’s usually a team that’s working on them, probably because of the sheer size of the games (often well over 100 hours). My personal favorites are Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (Yasunori Mitsuda, ACE, Kenji Hiramatsu & Manami Kioyta) and anything from Nihon Falcom (Falcom Sound Team jdk).


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## Pancakes (Jul 4, 2021)

JGRaynaud said:


> [...]
> 
> There are still stuff like that nowadays. The latest example I have in mind is from League of Legends and it's been released two months ago :
> 
> In my opinion it's just that way more video games are released nowadays, so it requires to search in the mass of soundtracks available to find something you'll truly enjoy.



Well yeah! I love that. And to be sure I'm not saying great music isn't out there. Of course it is! I suppose the subtext of my observation in this thread has a lot to do with how much these libraries coming out of these companies lately are pandering very hard to the drones and clicks and risers market. And randomized detuned atonal strings. Which are fun. But the coding isn't really there to support the idea of simulating what it means to play instruments in such an experimental way. So maybe I'm just irritated by all these libraries really are years away from being able to deliver what they are trying to shovel out there.

But yeah as far as my personal favorite soundtracks of the era I would put Etrian Odyssey (which has some Saitama level compositions imo), Griftlands (has some very subtle and amazing tracks), Borderlands 3 pretty high up on the list. But I will say I haven't been playing that wide of a variety of games in the past few years. But mostly I guess what has been getting to me is all these what do we call them contemporary/modern libraries that are coming out. You know the ones where they put so much effort into the visuals of the advertisement. Then you buy it and you realize the entire product is a repackaging of old samples wrapped up inside of a visual gimmick? It's been annoying me lately. That's probably what triggered me to make this thread. 

But yeah some Etrian Odyssey and Griftlands:


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## MA-Simon (Jul 9, 2021)

Personally, I was a huge fan of the early Final Fantasy soundtracks UNTIL 13. It went downhill from there, just epic epic epic epic for epic music sake. There was a weird divide between the picture, the story and the music. It does no longer go together at all. Just pumping melodies and beats. It's to much. It made me dislike jrpgs and electric guitars. (Which have never, ever fit in rpg settings.)

So for me The Last of US / God of War was a way better experience.


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## Jay Panikkar (Jul 9, 2021)

This is Fake News.

Videogame music is thriving like never before, with many great composers and great music spanning a wide variety of genres. If you are only looking at AAA studios, you're missing out on a lot. AAA studios have been eclipsed by AA / Indie studios at this point, both in terms of creativity and popularity.

Here are some AA / Indie titles that are not exclusively Japanese, and have nice music: Abzu, Bastion, The Binding of Isaac, Celeste, Divinity Original Sin 2, GRIS, Hades, The Journey, Katana Zero, Kingdom, Narita Boy, RimWorld, Risk of Rain, RUINER, Terraria, Transistor, Undertale, Warhammer Vermintide, etc.

The only AAA videogame music that matters is DOOM & DOOM Eternal. We can safely ignore everything else :


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## darcvision (Jul 9, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> Personally, I was a huge fan of the early Final Fantasy soundtracks UNTIL 13. It went downhill from there, just epic epic epic epic for epic music sake. There was a weird divide between the picture, the story and the music. It does no longer go together at all. Just pumping melodies and beats. It's to much. It made me dislike jrpgs and electric guitars. (Which have never, ever fit in rpg settings.)
> 
> So for me The Last of US / God of War was a way better experience.


i think final fantasy 13 ost is very great because masashi hamauzu is unique composer imo, similiar like hitoshi sakimoto (final fantasy tactic). not sure about final fantasy 14, but about final fantasy 15, i really love the ost, and it's composed by yoko shimamura. i would say final fantasy 15 ost is catchy, epic, wonderful and very fantasy.


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## MA-Simon (Jul 9, 2021)

stefandy31 said:


> i think final fantasy 13 ost is very great because masashi hamauzu is unique composer imo, similiar like hitoshi sakimoto (final fantasy tactic). not sure about final fantasy 14, but about final fantasy 15, i really love the ost, and it's composed by yoko shimamura. i would say final fantasy 15 ost is catchy, epic, wonderful and very fantasy.


If you listen to them without the picture, it is nice music. But it absolutely destroyed any feel of immersion while playing in the game. It feels like visiting a medieval fare, but they only play k-pop beats. It's awfull.
"catchy, epic, wonderful" <- This is exactly why I dislike it.


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## MartinH. (Jul 9, 2021)

Jay Panikkar said:


> RUINER


Didn't they just use existing music, like Hotline Miami did? It was a great selection though, very unique and fitting.




Jay Panikkar said:


> The only AAA videogame music that matters is DOOM & DOOM Eternal. We can safely ignore everything else :


Those were brilliant indeed! If you are looking for more "Doomcore" you can go on youtube and search for "doom soundtrack tribute" or "in the style of Mick Gordon" to find a couple more tracks. Or go straight to "Doom Radio" (although for my taste they sometimes cast the net a little too wide on what they include):


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## Jay Panikkar (Jul 9, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Didn't they just use existing music, like Hotline Miami did? It was a great selection though, very unique and fitting.


It's not unusual for Indie games to use a combination of in-house tracks, commissioned tracks (songs / album from a band, but not exactly BGM for the game itself) and licensed tracks from existing albums.



MartinH. said:


> Those were brilliant indeed! If you are looking for more "Doomcore" you can go on youtube and search for "doom soundtrack tribute" or "in the style of Mick Gordon" to find a couple more tracks. Or go straight to "Doom Radio" (although for my taste they sometimes cast the net a little too wide on what they include):



Iirc, Sascha Dikiciyan (a.k.a Sonic Mayhem) and Frank Klepacki popularised this genre in video games well before Mick Gordon came along, but Gordon has developed his own style from it. I think this kind of OST started with grunge metal / thrash metal combined with grungy synth sounds and techy sound effects, and then took off in different directions from there.

I find most of what is played on 'Doom Radio' is little more than metal with some processed drums and an edgy bassline thrown in.

Then there's the orchestral counterpart to this genre. But the grungy synths are replaced with clusters, aleatorics, edgy choirs and super duper fortissimo dynamics. God of War (Gerard Marino, Mike Reagan, Ron Fish & Cris Velasco) comes to mind, and the music of the Souls series (Yuka Kitamura & Motoi Sakuraba).


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## dohm (Jul 9, 2021)

Henning said:


> Been doing music for games for over 20 years. No project was alike for me. Always different challenges, always different music. I did some music lately set in a medieval fantasy world but inhabited by warrior cats and dogs. Absolute fun to do! Here's for example the title screen music:



Henning - Thanks so much for sharing that. Very nice work! Although I understand the need by many for differentiated commentary and praise/criticism of who/what they admire or don't admire, it is really great to see a post from a professional game composer. That knowledge sharing is what made this forum so useful over the past decade or more. Thanks!


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## Project Anvil (Jul 9, 2021)

This is more tangentially related because I honestly can't say much about "fusionists", _but_ I do have some thoughts on the topic title.

I'm in agreement with @Jay Panikkar - video game music is thriving. Whereas I've pretty much lost all hope about movie blockbuster soundtracks I think video games show not only great diversity of music, but skill too. Austin Wintory, Bear McCreary, Joe Hisaishi and Gordy Haab immediately come to mind, but there are many others.

So, to answer the title directly my feeling is that the most skillful media composers today are all in video games (though not necessarily AAA games). Film is a wasteland by comparison.

Since everyone is posting tracks:


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## Henning (Jul 9, 2021)

dohm said:


> Henning - Thanks so much for sharing that. Very nice work! Although I understand the need by many for differentiated commentary and praise/criticism of who/what they admire or don't admire, it is really great to see a post from a professional game composer. That knowledge sharing is what made this forum so useful over the past decade or more. Thanks!


Thanks a lot! One of the reasons why I love writing music for games is that you get to know so many talented people who pour their heart blood into their production. Game designers, graphic artists, programmers, it's really amazing what imagination and vision these - often very young - people bring to the table. I found this scene quite open to new musical concepts and experimental ideas. It's motivating and inspiring and every game has new challenges. Never gets boring for me


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## Jay Panikkar (Jul 9, 2021)

Henning said:


> Been doing music for games for over 20 years. No project was alike for me. Always different challenges, always different music. I did some music lately set in a medieval fantasy world but inhabited by warrior cats and dogs. Absolute fun to do! Here's for example the title screen music:



Cool. SMITE has a folk / ethnic flavour that can be tapped into, different from all the other MOBAs. Even with their long list of characters and lore, most other MOBAs seem to just go for the typical epic heroic themes.



Henning said:


> One of the reasons why I love writing music for games is that you get to know so many talented people who pour their heart blood into their production. Game designers, graphic artists, programmers, it's really amazing what imagination and vision these - often very young - people bring to the table. I found this scene quite open to new musical concepts and experimental ideas. It's motivating and inspiring and every game has new challenges. Never gets boring for me


I completely agree with your description of the videogame industry as a whole.

The videogame industry is more meritocratic than any other entertainment media, and due to the nature of the medium itself, the freedom and range of creative expression I don't think is even possible in other media. Imagination, passion and perseverance are rewarded. All of the individuals / departments involved try to give it their best. No need for the latest technologies, and multi-million dollar budgets. Games with pixel art graphics and chiptune music remain as popular as ever, and many of them achieve success and popularity that big AAA studios can't touch even in their dreams. 

Speaking of AAA studios, most of them have adopted the bland corporate culture where the "suits" in charge--who are completely oblivious to the artistry and the technologies involved--frequently interfere with creative direction and try to dumb it all down. And AAA studios usually outsource work to third-parties who have no stake / passion in the project itself. The end result is a "safe," generic IP that get "refreshed" every year or two. This is definitely reflected in the many of the soundtracks also being bland and generic, which I think ties back to what @Pancakes is seeing.


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## Chaosmod (Jul 9, 2021)

Martin O'Donnell and Michael Salvatori's Halo OST was one of the main reasons I got into this racket  Nothing better than game music, to me.


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## KEM (Jul 12, 2021)

Ludwig Göransson

That’s all I need to say


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