# I think it has to be this... moving from Mac to PC... :sad face:



## wayne_rowley (Jan 4, 2018)

Hi there,

(long post, sorry)

I've been wondering what to do about a new DAW computer for a while. I am currently on a 2011 MacBook Pro. It has served me well (and still does, in part), but it is maxed out and starting to show its age. I enjoy using Macs, and I really enjoy using Logic as a DAW, so was thinking about going for a used Mac Pro 5.1. It's still tempting, but I don't think that will serve me best in the long term. Apple and I want to go in very different directions:

Their kit is getting more expensive. Not a major problem (if it wasn't for the others below) as it is good kit, but I'm a hobbyist with a family and need to watch what I spend on this hobby.
Their kit is getting less and less upgradable! I like that I can replace the memory and drives in my MacBook Pro. But their modern kit, even a 'pro' device like the iMac Pro is not designed to be user upgradable. I want to extend the life of a machine by adding or upgrading drives and memory etc. Apple won't let me do that anymore.
Their upgrades are stupidly expensive... 
I can't see this trend changing. The new Mac Pro might change, but that is also likely to be very expensive... back to point one.

So, my new computer is going to have to be PC (despite the recent Intel fun and games). That's not so bad, I started on PCs back in the 90s. I know enough to research what I hope is a decent spec. I work mostly in the machine with VIs, but also need to keep to a budget, and consider that any new PC is going to be significantly faster than my Mac. My current thinking on spec is below:


CPU: Intel - Core i7-7700 3.6GHz Quad-Core Processor 
CPU Cooler: be quiet! - Shadow Rock Slim 67.8 CFM Rifle Bearing CPU Cooler
Motherboard: Asus - PRIME B250M-A Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2400 Memory
Storage: Samsung - 850 EVO-Series 500GB 2.5" Solid State Drive (OS & data) 
Storage: Samsung - 850 EVO-Series 500GB 2.5" Solid State Drive (Samples) 
Case: Fractal Design - Define Mini C MicroATX Mid Tower Case 
Power Supply: be quiet! - Pure Power 10 CM 400W 80+ Silver Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply 
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Home OEM 64-bit 
Wireless Network Adapter: Edimax - EW-7612PIn PCI-Express x1 802.11b/g/n Wi-Fi Adapter 
I'll be moving across Komplete, my additional Kontakt libraries and my Steinberg UR22 sound card.

Any foreseeable issues? I see worrying posts on the Steinberg forums about dropouts with the UR22 and PCs.

Any benefit in a separate graphics card? I don't play games, but do play videos and of course the built in one eats into system memory.


My biggest issue though is DAW!! I like Logic. 

Before moving to Mac I used Cakewalk and then SONAR... not an option any more. 

Based on what I know about DAWs I think it will be between Reaper, Studio One 3 and Cubase. I'd rather not spend loads of time demoing all three, and given budget considerations I really feel that I should give Reaper a chance first, though whenever I have looked at it in the past though I find it intimidating.

I have used Cubase and have a copy of Elements 7, but although I liked the tracking workflow but don't like the mixer or effects workflow.

The curveball is Studio One. Lots of supporters, but not sure how well it competes with the others for orchestral work (no tempo curve it seems, just fixed tempo changes).

I'm going to post something on the Reaper forum once my account is approved, to get advice on giving Reaper the best chance. But any thoughts in the meantime would be most welcome.

Thanks for reading this far!

Wayne


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## EvilDragon (Jan 4, 2018)

wayne_rowley said:


> PC (despite the recent Intel fun and games).



Mac runs Intel as well, sooo... :D


Ever thought about going Hackintosh?


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 4, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Ever thought about going Hackintosh?



No, it doesn't appeal to be honest. I don't think it's strictly legal either. 

I don't have anything against PCs, though when I did last have a music PC I had lots of trouble with USB devices, latency and clicks/pops. That was back in the early 2000s though...

It's time vs. money when it comes to staying with a Mac and Logic or moving to PC, and for me as a hobbyist money is going to win - especially when I specced it out and was looking at a saving of nearly £1K!


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## EvilDragon (Jan 4, 2018)

Just sayin'. If you're very used to Logic, Hackintosh probably makes sense...


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 4, 2018)

Go hackintosh.

And don’t worry about money. Spending money on a hobby stops you from doing worse things, so your family shouldn’t give you any flack about it.


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## Living Fossil (Jan 4, 2018)

@wayne_rowley : 
I would strongly recommend to take the i7 7700k instead of the 7700,
Since you will use your new computer longer than two weekends, that extra money spent on the faster CPU is basically a nobrainer.


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## LFO (Jan 6, 2018)

I recommend your OS SSD be an Evo Pro, it will stand up to the reads and writes demands of the OS much longer than and EVO.


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## EvilDragon (Jan 6, 2018)

Evo Pro doesn't exist. :D


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## Quasar (Jan 6, 2018)

If I were building a new machine today I would choose the 8700k, which isn't that much more... I agree that it's a shame what has happened to Apple, with everything glued down. Their high prices are only less than obscene if there are no other drawbacks and you're truly getting superior value for your money, and this is no longer the case. They clearly see the $$$$ in catering to the iOS tools & toys crowd.

Only if were _truly and irrevocably_ married to Logic and MacOS would I stay with the platform, and would build a Hackintosh before I'd buy an Apple computer, seeing this as the slightly better of two highly unpleasant choices. But Hackintosh IMHO is better suited for fiddlers and tweakers who enjoy diving into the tech for its own sake. It's certainly not the fast track for having a stable system up-&-running.

And Reaper is great, once you get your head around how the macros work and customize its design & features to your workflow.


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## creativeforge (Jan 6, 2018)

wayne_rowley said:


> No, it doesn't appeal to be honest. I don't think it's strictly legal either.
> 
> I don't have anything against PCs, though when I did last have a music PC I had lots of trouble with USB devices, latency and clicks/pops. That was back in the early 2000s though...
> 
> It's time vs. money when it comes to staying with a Mac and Logic or moving to PC, and for me as a hobbyist money is going to win - especially when I specced it out and was looking at a saving of nearly £1K!



I recommend you have a conversation with @Jim Roseberry at *StudioCat.com*. He's been building custom PC machines for audio and video production for over 20 years. 

I think both Reaper and Cubase are solid options too. I personally am happy with Mixcraft from Acoustica, also an affordable choice.

Good luck!


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 6, 2018)

Thanks for the encouraging replies. I thought the 7700 over the 8700 as I wondered if the slightly faster single-threaded performance would be a benefit (and also to help manage costs/budget). I could probably stretch to an 8700. 

8700 vs 8700K though - is there a real benefit that justifies the cost? I'm not interested in overclocking and wonder if the lower power consumption will mean lower temps and a quieter system. Given the age of my current computer, I'd imagine either will show a decent performance increase.

I'm also now wondering about going for a mini ITX system. I don't like big towers, and it would be more compact. Sacrificing a couple of memory slots though may not be good in the long run.


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## EvilDragon (Jan 6, 2018)

Lower power consumption indeed means lower temperatures and quieter system.


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 6, 2018)

Revised system spec:

CPU: Intel - Core i7-8700 3.2GHz 6-Core Processor 
CPU Cooler: be quiet! - Shadow Rock Slim 67.8 CFM Rifle Bearing CPU Cooler 
Motherboard: ASRock - Z370M-ITX/ac Mini ITX LGA1151 Motherboard 
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4-2666 Memory 
Storage: Samsung - 850 EVO-Series 500GB 2.5" Solid State Drive 
Storage: Samsung - 850 EVO-Series 500GB 2.5" Solid State Drive 
Case: Fractal Design - Define Nano S Mini ITX Desktop Case 
Power Supply: be quiet! - Pure Power 10 CM 400W 80+ Silver Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply 
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Home Full - 64-bit


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## JohnG (Jan 6, 2018)

Hi Wayne,

I don't know you and I don't mean to be overly presumptuous, but nevertheless I feel moved to urge you to reconsider before chucking the DAW you're accustomed to using.

Especially if you're a hobbyist, the amount of time it takes to learn a new DAW would seem time wasted. All the major ones (Logic included) will allow a composer to write virtually anything that the others do. Certainly, DAW software is not 100% uniform; each has features that are unique, or perform more easily, or are easier to use / learn. That said, the differences are marginal. 

Put another way, you can write great music with any one of them.

I think it's clear where you're coming from about hardware. It sounds like you're in the UK and so the premium between Apple and Windows/PC is still substantial? If you buy RAM here (US) from a third party, the prices are "more" comparable, but your points about upgrades are undeniable.

That said, I have gotten excellent value for money from my Apple computers, which seem to last indefinitely, and I've upgraded many / all the drives to SSDs, which has helped to keep performance respectable.

If it's the case that you have not invested much time into learning Logic, then the switch would probably produce negligible heartburn. But if that's not the case, if you know Logic pretty well, even £1 is not that big a premium compared with your precious time. That is even more true if you think of amortising the premium over many years.

Either way, good luck and have fun composing!

John


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## whinecellar (Jan 6, 2018)

creativeforge said:


> I recommend you have a conversation with @Jim Roseberry at *StudioCat.com*. He's been building custom PC machines for audio and video production for over 20 years.



Yep, I can vouch for Jim as well - he built me a monster PC slave 2 years ago. I'm a die hard Mac guy who still abhors windows but I needed a big slave and no Mac can touch it, sadly. With my Windows ignorance, I wanted a turnkey solution that I didn't have to think about. He made it so easy, and has helped me many times in the last 2 years - even remoting in to tweak things for me, prevent auto-updates, etc. Great guy!

Having said all that, @JohnG has words of wisdom above about learning a new DAW. But if you're OK with that, Jim is highly recommended!


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## LFO (Jan 6, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Evo Pro doesn't exist. :D


Ok, 850 Pro. You know what I meant.


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## LFO (Jan 6, 2018)

Workflow is everything. Nothing trumps it, though the ridiculous cost of Apple is a huge motivator. I briefly moved from Cubase to Logic but the cost of staying with Apple hardware compelled me to move back to PC / Cubase. I haven't looked back. My system is *rock* solid and the Cubase workflow matches how I think. I recommend you take time to demo DAWS as you need to find the right fit for your mind. Nothing is more important.


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## Craig Duke (Jan 7, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> Yep, I can vouch for Jim as well - he built me a monster PC slave 2 years ago. I'm a die hard Mac guy who still abhors windows but I needed a big slave and no Mac can touch it, sadly. With my Windows ignorance, I wanted a turnkey solution that I didn't have to think about. He made it so easy, and has helped me many times in the last 2 years - even remoting in to tweak things for me, prevent auto-updates, etc. Great guy!
> 
> Having said all that, @JohnG has words of wisdom above about learning a new DAW. But if you're OK with that, Jim is highly recommended!



I recently ordered an 8700K (4.7 GHz)-based DAW from Jim at Purrfect Audio. I was going to build my own, as I have done in the past, but instead decided to take advantage of his expertise. I'm quite excited to take delivery. It would be worthwhile to give Jim a call. He is very approachable and free with his advice. A $100 off sale now.


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## creativeforge (Jan 7, 2018)

LFO said:


> Workflow is everything. [...] I recommend you take time to demo DAWS as you need to find the right fit for your mind. Nothing is more important.



Totally agree. Workflow is so important, features can weigh on our decisions too, but if the workflow isn't there you get bugged down instead of productive.


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## EvilDragon (Jan 7, 2018)

wayne_rowley said:


> CPU Cooler: be quiet! - Shadow Rock Slim 67.8 CFM Rifle Bearing CPU Cooler



I would suggest, if you can spend a little bit extra, definitely go for Noctua fans. They are the best!


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## AdamAlake (Jan 7, 2018)

wayne_rowley said:


> My biggest issue though is DAW!! I like Logic.
> 
> Before moving to Mac I used Cakewalk and then SONAR... not an option any more.
> 
> Based on what I know about DAWs I think it will be between Reaper, Studio One 3 and Cubase. I'd rather not spend loads of time demoing all three, and given budget considerations I really feel that I should give Reaper a chance first, though whenever I have looked at it in the past though I find it intimidating.



Do not worry about that too much, at their core most DAWs are similar and learning the basics of workflow takes a short amount of time and you can learn advanced functions as you go.

I would recommend starting with the Studio One trial, it is a good DAW, easy to learn and you get to try the full version in the trial period.


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## creativeforge (Jan 7, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> I would suggest, if you can spend a little bit extra, definitely go for Noctua fans. They are the best!



Agreed! I had to check to make sure the machine was on after replacing my fan with a Noctua. Not making this up!


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## Zhao Shen (Jan 7, 2018)

I've mentioned this before, but I use both a Mac and PC daily (for different purposes) and prefer Windows to MacOS. Yes, I'm in the minority, but moving to PC isn't objectively bad.


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## khollister (Jan 9, 2018)

The big issue here isn't hardware "bang for the buck" but changing DAW's. I made the switch to PC and Cubase over a year ago myself. In my case, however, I specifically wanted Cubase for expression maps.

As you are a hobbyist and are not trying to build a 8/10/12 core monster PC, have you considered an i7 iMac or a used Mac Pro 6.1? Still more expensive than a DIY modest PC, but you stay with Logic and what you already know.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 9, 2018)

wayne_rowley said:


> My biggest issue though is DAW!! I like Logic.



Personally, I would hold out until you can move up to a better Mac...such as a newer iMac. Windows and Cubase are going to open up a whole new world of headaches (not to mention a learning a DAW from the ground up). If you like Logic, stick with it.


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## Symfoniq (Jan 9, 2018)

Zhao Shen said:


> I've mentioned this before, but I use both a Mac and PC daily (for different purposes) and prefer Windows to MacOS. Yes, I'm in the minority, but moving to PC isn't objectively bad.



There might be more of us than you think. I use Windows, Linux, and macOS daily. I've been using a Mac since the System 6 days, but today macOS is probably my least favorite of the three major operating systems, and High Sierra is absolutely the buggiest of the three.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 9, 2018)

I am sure that they exist but I have never met a knowledgeable person who worked for years on the Mac OS and moved to Windows and said, "i actually prefer Windows to the Mac OS." But that said, rarely have I met a knowledgeable person who worked for years on the Windows OS and moved to the Mac OS and said, "i actually prefer the Mac OS to the Windows OS."


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## MarcelM (Jan 9, 2018)

well, i used to be a programmer in my day job and was developing for windows only. also i have used every version for personal use, but nowadays i prefer osx alot. i just like the look and feel, and also high sierra runs perfect here without any problems. sold my mac pro btw and build a ryzen hackintosh which works like a charm.

iam still using windows aswell if i want to play a game, but besides that my machine boots high sierra for everything else.


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## ranaprathap (Jan 9, 2018)

I would recommend going with the i7 8700k with a Noctua cooler. These Noctua coolers are supposed to be quieter, and perform better than AIO liquid coolers, and are good for overclocking.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 9, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> But that said, rarely have I met a knowledgeable person who worked for years on the Windows OS and moved to the Mac OS and said, "i actually prefer the Mac OS to the Windows OS."



Not sure if I fall into the "knowledgeable" category, but I moved to Mac OS in 2013 (after 20+ years on Windows), it was a real eye opener. I can't imagine going back to Windows. To me it was just like using a big iPhone, and everything "magically" worked without having to fart around.


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## Mornats (Jan 9, 2018)

I've used Windows since the 90s at home then in 2009 I got a job that required me to use a Mac. Coincidentally I started using OSX at the same time as Windows 7 so "worked" (on music as my hobby) at home on Windows and at work on OSX. I eventually, after 4 years, requested that I was given a PC at work due to frustrations in trying to use OSX. Now, this isn't a knock on OSX. It works brilliantly for some but for me there were things that just worked on Windows that frustrated me on OSX. Little things and big things. If I were 100% on OSX I probably would have transitioned well but using both side by side just highlighted the differences that frustrated me. 

In short, my conclusion is that the best operating system is the one you're at home with and which doesn't hinder you and that can be either OSX or Windows.


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## trumpoz (Jan 9, 2018)

Have you thought of building a PC as a slave computer?

You use the MacbookPro as the master and stay with Logic and the heavy lifting is done on the PC. The cost of a PC + VEPro and you dont have to buy/learn new DAW software.

I dont know if you have networking experience but I dont and VE Pro was easy to setup and get running.


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 12, 2018)

Thanks for all the great replies. It has been a manic week - hence my delay in getting back on the forum.

Firstly, slave machines. It's not something I'm looking at now for a few reasons. Firstly, with my MacBook being 7+ years old it is reaching the point that it needs replacing anyway. I'd rather work on one machine as I don't have a lot of space - and certainly not enough for a two computers/screens. I think a slave would be overkill for my needs, at least at the moment.

I know what everyone is saying about workflow and the benefits of staying with what I know - Logic! That is my dilemma. But I'm thinking of not just now but the future. I could buy another three years of Logic time just be getting a 5.1. But since I bought my Mac, Apple have:

- Made Macs less upgradable and repairable
- Made them more expensive to buy as all upgrades must be bought at time of purchase (at Apple prices)

Sadly I don't see that changing in the near future.

I don't want an iMac as I already have a screen, and I prefer anti-glare screens. Yet the current range of MacBook Pros only go up to 16GB. I could pay £2500K for a 15inch with 1TB SSD (probably refurb at that price) and with the RAM limitation I may only get 2-3 years before I max it (when I bought my 2011 model it had 4GB of RAM - now has 16GB).

So I am thinking that PCs may be a better long-term option for me. Unless I can get a 2013 Pro for a good price (after Christmas John Lewis were flogging them for £1200... ) 

I'll take the advice on the Noctua coolers. I'm still pondering 7700 vs 8700 and other options, and especially DAWs. I think Studio One 3 might be the nearest to Logic though, but I would want to demo it to be sure.

Thanks again,
Wayne


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## MarcelM (Jan 12, 2018)

wayne_rowley said:


> Thanks for all the great replies. It has been a manic week - hence my delay in getting back on the forum.
> 
> Firstly, slave machines. It's not something I'm looking at now for a few reasons. Firstly, with my MacBook being 7+ years old it is reaching the point that it needs replacing anyway. I'd rather work on one machine as I don't have a lot of space - and certainly not enough for a two computers/screens. I think a slave would be overkill for my needs, at least at the moment.
> 
> ...



i have an noctua dh 14 in one of my machines (i5 6600), and its super quiet. in general you cannot go wrong with noctua. sure, there are cheaper solutions but noctua is the best brand regarding cpu coolers.


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## lpuser (Jan 12, 2018)

wayne_rowley said:


> So I am thinking that PCs may be a better long-term option for me. Unless I can get a 2013 Pro for a good price (after Christmas John Lewis were flogging them for £1200... )



As someone who comes from Logic Audio on PC years ago, I absolutely understand you point. But while the PC may look like a cheaper option, don´t forget to add the price of a new DAW, probably plugin updates/changes etc. Not to speak of the fact that all major Logic and OS updates so far have been free, while that´s a different story for PC software and operating systems. All that sums up and if you are going for a really professional PC, it won´t be that much cheaper in terms of TCO in a few years from now.

I once tried to switch my sequencer and ended up not doing it. When Emagic was bought by Apple, I wanted to stay on the PC. So I tried moving to another DAW, purchased Cubase SX but after much frustration ended up getting a Mac instead in order to keep working in Logic and being able to access all my older songs.

If you do not need to really buy something new tomorrow, then why not at least wait until Apple unveils more infos on the upcoming Mac Pro? They promised that it will be expandable again, which is why I am waiting myself ...

Cheers
Tom


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## MarcelM (Jan 12, 2018)

there would be always the hackintosh. if you cannot build/setup yourself maybe you can finde someone near you to do it for you.

iam using hackintosh and it runs very stable for me. if you choose the right hardware its really pretty easy to setup.


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## Britpack50 (Jan 13, 2018)

Apologies if this is a little cathartic but I've just come out of a long journey...

I made the move to PC 15 months ago. I'm on pro tools, hobbyist. Running on a cheese grater Mac Pro.

Firstly, why did I move? 3 reasons. Firstly I wanted a PC at least as powerful as the latest mac with multiple onboard SSDs, increased memory and PCIE cards on board, not via a multitude of external boxes. I also wanted it upgradable. I also frankly dont like Apple's screw you approach to the Darth Vader Mac Pro.

Had a PC built specially by a music of provider here in the U.K. carillon. I76950x 10 core...super powerful without going to a dual Xeon set up.

I needed thunderbolt and I added a raven slate touch screen. ASUS x99 mobo. A year and a half later I have a stable system, but:

1. I have found cubase more stable than pro tools so now use it for VST rich composition. May consider full switch to cubase and ditch pro tools over time, but love the latency free monitoring, HDX and general approach/facilities for audio mixing in PT.
2. Thunderbolt and USB were a nightmare. Ultimately I had to switch to a TB 3 card, and found a you tube video which provided the only way I could get it to be recognised. Part of this issues was TB on PC and ASUS boards. Part was Windows updates...
3. Windows updates are a pain. Every other one seems to knock some part of my system out of joint. However, I was finding some issues with apple updates too. But you can stop apple updates.
4. The USB in ASUS x99 boards is terrible, but solved it by using new USB 3 hubs and...
5. After a Windows update, my MOTU midi express XTs stopped my USB keyboards from being recognised! Having lost my keyboards with no way to fix it, I was about to sell the PC, but as a last ditch just deleted every bit of software I didn't need to see if something was interfering. By complete accident, I deleted the motu midi driver and bingo everything worked again! Contacted MOTU and told them their PC driver was close to 5 years old. They did nothing. So I switched to iconnectivity m10 interfaces (never knew they existed and only found them at the eleventh hour by accident, as I couldn't find an interface that did what the express XT did, except for this one).
6. The slate Rave MTi2 has never been comfortable. I got it to work once the MOTU issue was sorted but now after an Windows update, somethign else went out and I have deleted all the raven UPDD stuff and got my system working again. I now just have a very expensive monitor and dont want tot try to get it working as a touch screen again.

So multiple drivers, windows updates....a nightmare. But right now. It's working and its an incredibly powerful PC that I can update and modify. The fact soft synths, particularly the U-He ones can run so well with all that power has basically got me thinking I will abandon my hardware synths. I have yet to build my final template to test the limits of sample based orchestral composition but suspect it will cope just fine.

Pros and Cons. I came close to going back to mac a few times. I also bought a 2015 iMAC for another location, obviously much less powerful, and far less stuff connected to it than my main PC, so not fair to compare, but it runs pro tools and cubase perfectly. Also got me thinking. So what to the future?

Given the pricing of the new iMac Pros, the new Mac Pros are going to be monumentally expensive, so I am not holding out for the opportunity to spend 10K on a Mac Pro. I am glad I have a super flexible powerful PC and will stick with it.

But be prepared. I think with a different mother board, even a year and a half later things have moved on.


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 13, 2018)

The best computer I ever bought is my 2009 Mac Pro Cheesegrater. I bought it new in 2009, and today it is still a very decent machine. Its a Dual Xeon Nehalem, and I 'upgraded' it to a 5,1 with a firmware flash. I can up the CPU's to if I want to.

I bought some RAM pulled from HP servers on Ebay and packed it to 64gb for under £ 200.
I bought a couple of SATA 3 PCI cards from eBay (new) for around £ 30 and have four internal SSD's on those cards, plus three internal mechanical drives. Also put in USB 3 cards. 
I put in a better GPU for under £ 100

This machine is nearly ten years old and still gives more than enough performance - though I also have a new iMac 5k - so I often use it as a slave for which is out great.

I've been very disappointed in Apple recently - there was no way I was ever going to buy a coffee grinder. I would not like to be in a position where I need to buy a new Mac just now. I am hoping for a new Mac Pro that sets the standard like the cheesegrater did - so I really don't envy you needing to make a change now.

If Apple do make a really epic new MacPro I think they will do very well sales wise - and that might well focus their attention on this section of the market they have neglected for so long. 

If they drop the ball with the new Mac Pro - then I can see a more final and dramatic migration of power users to the PC platform - and that would be very sad.....


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## khollister (Jan 13, 2018)

I agree with Britpack. I went PC/Cubase from a 6 core cheese grater & LPX about a year ago. I love the performance of the machine, have mixed feelings about LPX vs Cubase but am frustrated with the "under the hood" fiddling, especially in light of the Win10 update process and now the latest patches (SW, BIOS, drivers, etc).

In spite of the cost, I am seriously looking at a 10 core iMac Pro w 64GB and the Vega56 graphics card ($6600 - $800 less if I stick with the 8 core). On top of that I need a BlackMagic dock for SSD's and I have to figure out what to do about my UAD Octo and plugin library (get a PCIe->TB chassis, sell and buy a TB Satellite or sell everything and go native). The fact I'm considering spending at least $7000 to replace a $1700 PC (I would be getting a 5K display in the process) is indicative of my discomfort. The issue isn't using Windows 10, it is the maintenance and management of a Windows PC.

Fortunately the market is on afterburners this past year, so maybe I'll treat myself 

My slave is a Haswell 6 core on a pre-Creator version of Win10 with the updates disabled successfully. I'm OK taking the Meltdown/Spectre risk on the slave (no web browsing or sensitive credentials). It's the Cubase DAW machine that has me wrapped around the axle.

I guess Plan B (really should be Plan A) is replace the MB and CPU on the X99 DAW with Z370 & 8700K (reuse RAM) and reinstall and patch everything, and hope for minimal performance issues. Still stuck with update hell, though.



Britpack50 said:


> Apologies if this is a little cathartic but I've just come out of a long journey...
> 
> I made the move to PC 15 months ago. I'm on pro tools, hobbyist. Running on a cheese grater Mac Pro.
> 
> ...snip...


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## mystic merlin (Jan 13, 2018)

Hi, I know you’re not keen on a hackintosh but with a golden build on tonymac you really can’t go wrong. I tried windows but the main problems were Antivirus software compulsory, No Core Audio i.e not multi client Audio driver can’t listen to sounds in the finder, and most of all no spotlight indexing (the windows indexing never worked well enough) . Also Protools worked better under OS X . Also if you’re used to Logic it’s a pain to switch. When you build a hack from a golden build you can still dual boot for the price of a small SSD so really there’s nothing to lose . A few years back it might have been a bit geeky but these days it’s just too easy . The 8700k cpu really seems the best option. I find in the long term spending a bit more gives you a couple more years out of a Daw and when you factor in the hassle it is to change it seems worth it .


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## khollister (Jan 14, 2018)

mystic merlin said:


> Hi, I know you’re not keen on a hackintosh but with a golden build on tonymac you really can’t go wrong. I tried windows but the main problems were Antivirus software compulsory, No Core Audio i.e not multi client Audio driver can’t listen to sounds in the finder, and most of all no spotlight indexing (the windows indexing never worked well enough) . Also Protools worked better under OS X . Also if you’re used to Logic it’s a pain to switch. When you build a hack from a golden build you can still dual boot for the price of a small SSD so really there’s nothing to lose . A few years back it might have been a bit geeky but these days it’s just too easy . The 8700k cpu really seems the best option. I find in the long term spending a bit more gives you a couple more years out of a Daw and when you factor in the hassle it is to change it seems worth it .



I just cruised Tonymacx86 and while there are people running 8700K's, the official recommendation for minimum problems is still 7700K.

I'm sort of interested though. Random questions/thoughts below for the experienced hack users:

Do the PCIe UAD cards work OK? I assume they would since the Mac drivers support the cheesegrater MP's
Don't really need BT or WiFi (have it disabled on my Win10 DAW)
Would like to use integrated graphics - I saw mentions of it working on 8700K's but sleep is broken. I have sleep turned off on my PC's so ...
My biggest concern is future OS X updates, especially when firmware updates are involved. The Spectre/Meltdown patches are an example - is a hack really patched? 
I could recycle my RAM, case, PS, etc and just get a MB + CPU and go this route.


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## mystic merlin (Jan 14, 2018)

8700k just as stable as 7700k. If you see a golden build it means an expert has ironed out the really finicky details that can sometimes be a nightmare for the regular user. usb, Ethernet sleep, iMessage can be hellish on certain systems . 
PCIe is not a problem , I run two aggregated raydats and an UAD Octo in one 
WiFi not necessary.
Intel graphics work fine up to two screens. 
Updates are usually not a problem. Best to wait for the tonymac green light and always have a carbon cloner copy when doing any type of upgrade. 
When I have a really stable system I tend to not upgrade unless absolutely necessary. At the moment Sierra 10.12.6 is very good and I won’t be moving up to high Sierra anytime soon


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## mystic merlin (Jan 14, 2018)

Once the clover boot loader is installed your OS X install is vanilla so any patches are identical. The few bugs I had were identical on my cheese grater Mac pros. Indeed you could easily recycle a psu, a case and some hard drives . Memory is cpu dependent.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 18, 2018)

Regulus said:


> Connect your mac peripherals and you'll feel like home.



Hmmm, not really. I had a Windows slave for many years and it was fine. Indeed, I consistently recommended that Mac based composers who wanted to run demanding libraries get one and I still do. But Windows never made me feel "at home."


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