# Project Anvil's Cinematic Studio Orchestra



## Project Anvil (Apr 13, 2021)

Hello there!


I've been on something of a quest to try to make a template centered around the Cinematic Studio Series libraries. My goal has been to create a fairly dry, studio sound that has depth and width and isn't drenched in reverb.

These are my attempts so far. Any feedback is appreciated. You can be mean, I can take it!


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## aka70 (Apr 13, 2021)

You're being very modest because this is awesome! The sound is very rich, well balanced and the positioning (panning, depth) is just great for my ears. 

Awesome work. I wish I could make CSS sound like this


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## muziksculp (Apr 13, 2021)

Sounds very nice. Thanks for sharing. 

But I don't feel they are super dry, You have a tasteful amount of acoustics/reverb. 

By the way, I don't mind having a nice medium length reverb tail on orchestral tracks, provided they are mixed properly. There is a certain quality that a high-quality reverb offers that a dry recording doesn't, and vice-versa. It all depends on the context.


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## NoamL (Apr 13, 2021)

Normally I think this amount of close micing on every instrument would be a little unpleasant & claustrophobic but you've done something here to create a very nice sound. Could you spill some more details about your process? Mics, reverb, eq, sounds like some saturation too maybe?

It sounds kinda like those Anvil Studios recordings of John Williams.. ESB... Well done...


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## Project Anvil (Apr 13, 2021)

aka70 said:


> You're being very modest because this is awesome! The sound is very rich, well balanced and the positioning (panning, depth) is just great for my ears.
> 
> Awesome work. I wish I could make CSS sound like this


Thanks  I don't mind sharing my settings actually, just not sure if I should put it in text (which would be a long read) or in video. The only thing I won't do is share the project file directly because that bypasses many things that could be learned from implementing it directly (and besides, the chances folks have the exact same plugins I have is low).



muziksculp said:


> Sounds very nice. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> But I don't feel they are super dry, You have a tasteful amount of acoustics/reverb.
> 
> By the way, I don't mind having a nice medium length reverb tail on orchestral tracks, provided they are mixed properly. There is a certain quality that a high-quality reverb offers that a dry recording doesn't, and vice-versa. It all depends on the context.


Yeah, there's certainly reverb in there, just a lot less than I used to have. I just find that in vintage William's recordings the sense of space is mostly defined by, well, the room, not by any added reverb.



I hear a ton of depth, hard-panned close section mics, but very little in the way of reverb. I'm still reading up a bit on Eric Tomlinson who recorded TESB in Anvil recording studios. Pretty interesting stuff so far, you can have a read yourself here if you're interested:



https://www.malonedigital.com/tomlinson.pdf




https://www.malonedigital.com/starwars.pdf



EDIT:


NoamL said:


> It sounds kinda like those Anvil Studios recordings of John Williams.. ESB... Well done...


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## Malo (Apr 14, 2021)

Project Anvil said:


> Thanks  I don't mind sharing my settings actually, just not sure if I should put it in text (which would be a long read) or in video. The only thing I won't do is share the project file directly because that bypasses many things that could be learned from implementing it directly (and besides, the chances folks have the exact same plugins I have is low).
> 
> 
> Yeah, there's certainly reverb in there, just a lot less than I used to have. I just find that in vintage William's recordings the sense of space is mostly defined by, well, the room, not by any added reverb.


Your great music examples and the studio sound you are referring to comes across brilliantly - listening through my tiny iphone speakers!

Well done! Very well done!

I have always liked that dryish scoring stage sound of the old Williams scores. The depth and width of E.T.! 

I would certainly appreciate learning more about how you achieve this sound with the Cinematic Studio Series.

Thank you for posting! Love it!


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## FireGS (Apr 14, 2021)

Your writing is VERY good. That definitely helps this overall.


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## Malo (Apr 14, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Your writing is VERY good. That definitely helps this overall.


Very good writing also helped Eric Tomlinson. 😁


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## Project Anvil (Apr 14, 2021)

I appreciate the kind words, though I honestly think I still have miles to go, both composition and mixing wise.

Some areas for improvement, based on some feedback I've gotten on other forums and my own listening are:

- Trumpets sound forward compared to the rest of the brass.
- Woodwinds could be pushed back further.

I'll share the exact settings either in text or video format later on (I want to try to address the above two points before I do), but I can already offer some insight into the plugins used:

- Eventide SP2016 Reverb (can be substituted with REverence if in a pinch)
- REverence (stock cubase plugin)
- Fabfilter Pro-Q 3
- TDR Nova (free!)
- Panagement 2 (free!)
- Liquidsonics Cinematic Rooms Pro (not so free, but really you could use any other reverb here, as long as you have access to a pre-delay setting)
- Liquidsonics Seventh Heaven, non-pro version (any other decent algorithmic verb will also work)
- Mixerdelay (stock cubase plugin)

Though REverence and SP2016 are both reverbs, I use them as "Dry reverb" Michael White has a very good video on how that works (in general his videos are excellent):



EDIT:
Winds pushed back some more. On headphones it sounds much less centered than with headphones + canopener due to the lack of crossfeeding.


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## axb312 (Apr 14, 2021)

Project Anvil said:


> I appreciate the kind words, though I honestly think I still have miles to go, both composition and mixing wise.
> 
> Some areas for improvement, based on some feedback I've gotten on other forums and my own listening are:
> 
> ...



I think a video would be helpful. Thanks.


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 15, 2021)

Sounds great! Would love to learn more, so subscribing to this thread.


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## Project Anvil (Apr 16, 2021)

Sorry not sorry for the tease.



More coming soon. Stay tuned.


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## 22evan (Apr 16, 2021)

Yes please and thank you!


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## cqd (Apr 16, 2021)

Nice one..


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 16, 2021)

Sign me up!


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## Sunny Schramm (Apr 17, 2021)

I absolutely love the sound you create for the CS-Series. Cant wait for more information


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## rudi (Apr 21, 2021)

Goose bumps!!!


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## Project Anvil (Apr 21, 2021)

Sorry for the delay folks, I tried to make a video last weekend but wasn't happy with it. Ended up way too longwinded and clumsy. Instead, I've been working on writing it down as a concise, illustrated article. I think it will be clearer than a video where I'm switching between windows all the time and mumbling into the microphone.

Also, HOOPUS got in the way 

I expect the article to be done today or tomorrow and will post it here once it's up.


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## Consona (Apr 21, 2021)

We like longwinded and clumsy videos.


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## 22evan (Apr 21, 2021)

Video or article thank you for sharing


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## Project Anvil (Apr 21, 2021)

The first chapter is here! And it's all about *Horns*!



Chapter 1 – Horns – Matthias Calis Portfolio



I'm afraid it ended up kind of long winded anyway, but I hope this gives some insight into the setup. Again, I should reiterate the reason that I am not just sharing a project file... I don't think there's much to be learned from that. By implementing the setup yourself, you'll get a much better understanding of why things are there. At least, that's the idea 

I'm not a pro mixer and I welcome any feedback anyone might have. Being an optimist, I'm silently hoping that by breaking with the trend of secrecy, people will start sharing more of their own tips and tricks back.

If you've got any questions, please don't hesitate to ask here.


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## 22evan (Apr 21, 2021)

Project Anvil said:


> The first chapter is here! And it's all about *Horns*!
> 
> https://matthiascalis.nl/chapter-1-horns/
> I'm afraid it ended up kind of long winded anyway, but I hope this gives some insight into the setup. Again, I should reiterate the reason that I am not just sharing a project file... I don't think there's much to be learned from that. By implementing the setup yourself, you'll get a much better understanding of why things are there. At least, that's the idea
> ...


Knowledge is always welcome, super interesting stuff


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## darcvision (Apr 21, 2021)

Hi, i'm also trying to build a template using panagement and mono/close mic, algo reverb with no ER and bricasti reverb for tail. Sometimes i'm afraid using too much panagement because it will create a phase issues , so i'm experimenting the flip phase feature. I also check in mono too. About solo instrument, i push back it using panagement and add a lexicon verb for tail. Honestly, i'm not sure it will be sounds realistic but i just love the sounds so i guess it's ok.

I'm only use EQ on reverb to kill the mud and LPF for make it more warmer. i'm afraid if i use too much EQ especially on instrument, it will make sounds more worse and synthetic. i guess it will depend on the arrangement or orchestration.

This is the example of my track (no brass) using my template. Any feedback about mixing would be very appreciated. I still experimenting my template and next i want to create with a brass section too. 


Your tutorial is very interesting because you're using room mic and pan it with panagement. For creating room, i just use reverb and i think it's more than enough. Sorry for bad english.

Thanks for the tutorial.


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## Project Anvil (Apr 22, 2021)

@stefandy31 I'm not sure if I can be of much help here, and my feedback depends somewhat on what you define as the mix. If the mix is just about how things are positioned and the sense of the space, then I don't have that much to say, only that I'm not really sure where the basses are. One moment they seem somewhat left of centre, the next they seem more to the right.

One area I feel you could make gains is in the actual programming of the mockup. At the start you've got cellos playing some kind of staccatissimo with a pretty hard attack and a very short decay. Yet the piece seems to suggest that the opening is quite gentle, and so it feels to me these short notes should be played with a softer attack and more tenuto-like. 

There's a pretty hard bump at 0:31, I think the cello is still hitting another staccato that is making the transition a bit clumsy.

Are you using VSL here? To my ears it sounds very much like anechoically recorded instruments with some panning and reverb, it gives some kind of impression of depth, but it doesn't really feel like a space yet. You say you have EQ on the reverb, but do you have any EQ on the actual instruments? Because if you're using VSL stuff, you will need to cut some highs since high frequencies roll off over distance. There is no simple math equation to tell you how much or what frequencies exactly, only the principal that high frequencies lose power over distance much faster than low frequencies.

You may be better helped by some of @Beat Kaufmann's tutorials - I believe he deals with mostly dry/VSL-style instruments and can probably speak to this better.


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## Project Anvil (Apr 22, 2021)

The second chapter is here! And it's all about *Trumpets!*



Chapter II – Trumpets – Matthias Calis Portfolio



This one is a lot shorter but leans a little on what was described in the previous chapter. You may be surprised by the super, super secret effects I'm using on these...


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## Trash Panda (Apr 22, 2021)

Love the work you’re doing. Thank you for sharing the knowledge.


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## darcvision (Apr 22, 2021)

Project Anvil said:


> If the mix is just about how things are positioned and the sense of the space, then I don't have that much to say, only that I'm not really sure where the basses are


I see, maybe the basses doesn't have space or too quiet.


Project Anvil said:


> One moment they seem somewhat left of centre, the next they seem more to the right.


I'm not sure, but the next section, the violin section panned to left and cello, clarinet and bassoon are panned right.



Project Anvil said:


> One area I feel you could make gains is in the actual programming of the mockup. At the start you've got cellos playing some kind of staccatissimo with a pretty hard attack and a very short decay. Yet the piece seems to suggest that the opening is quite gentle, and so it feels to me these short notes should be played with a softer attack and more tenuto-like.


Well, actually it's viola. the first section it's staccato and the next section is spiccato. the programming is still raw, sorry if i asking too early.


Project Anvil said:


> Are you using VSL here? To my ears it sounds very much like anechoically recorded instruments with some panning and reverb, it gives some kind of impression of depth, but it doesn't really feel like a space yet. You say you have EQ on the reverb, but do you have any EQ on the actual instruments? Because if you're using VSL stuff, you will need to cut some highs since high frequencies roll off over distance. There is no simple math equation to tell you how much or what frequencies exactly, only the principal that high frequencies lose power over distance much faster than low frequencies.


I am not VSL user, but my library mostly dry and i think it might blend well with another library without using EQ too much. I mostly using EQ for HPF to kill the unwanted frequency. Honestly, I'm not very sure with my statement since blending different library, positioning and reverb are very complex stuff. In the end, i don't think too much and i just trust my ears. I guess building a perfect template would be a long journey.



Project Anvil said:


> You may be better helped by some of @Beat Kaufmann's tutorials - I believe he deals with mostly dry/VSL-style instruments and can probably speak to this better.


His tutorial are amazing, i learned a lot. i also learn from matthias weslund article, Joel Elle, Dan Worrall, Mix with the master and many more...

Thank you very much for your feedback, It's very helpful and sorry for asking that silly stuff, i will delete it later.


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## purple (Apr 23, 2021)

I like these articles so far. I didn't even know about panagment. What a neat plugin at the best possible price! I will be using that a lot going forward. Also the "dry reverb" trick is something I tried to figure out a while ago but could never get right. Now I have it down. It's totally needed for the horn close mics cause other wise they get so "quacky" on the shorts.


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## Project Anvil (Apr 24, 2021)

purple said:


> I like these articles so far. I didn't even know about panagment. What a neat plugin at the best possible price! I will be using that a lot going forward. Also the "dry reverb" trick is something I tried to figure out a while ago but could never get right. Now I have it down. It's totally needed for the horn close mics cause other wise they get so "quacky" on the shorts.


Panagement is great. I almost feel bad about just using the free version because I've gotten so much mileage out of it. In my view it's actually a bit nicer than Precedence.


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## Project Anvil (Apr 24, 2021)

I was aiming to get the third and final brass chapter (about trombones and the tuba) up today, but didn't quite manage to. I expect to put it up tomorrow, and then I'll start working on an explanation of the reverb setup.

I should note however that the reverb very much is icing on the cake so frankly, no one really needs to follow my exact setup or expect it to change the overall sound in some big way.

In the meantime, I wanted to share this brief excerpt of the horns, bones and tuba having a _blast_ together because, I won't lie, I did make a last-minute change to the bones as I was writing the article that I rather liked.


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## ricoderks (May 4, 2021)

Woah! It seems i've totally missed this thread! Sounds promising!


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## Project Anvil (May 8, 2021)

No cigar yet for those waiting on Trombones & Tuba. Article has been nearly done for a while, but I decided in the meantime I'd have another go at recording videos.

A lot of takes and edits later, I've posted a video-format explanation on the horns here:

Please forgive any ramblings, I'm still finding my flooting with this format.


Goal is to get Trumpets and Trombones & Tuba out in video format this weekend too, but no promises!


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## Trash Panda (May 22, 2021)

Is this project still going?


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## Project Anvil (May 22, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Is this project still going?


Yes, I'm just very slow! Sorry!


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## Trash Panda (May 22, 2021)

Take your time. Just wanted to make sure you hadn't lost motivation, because I'm really liking what you're sharing.


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## axb312 (Jul 2, 2021)

Waiting for the next vid/ article here


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## sathyva (Jul 2, 2021)

Can’t wait for the strings articles !


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## constaneum (Jul 3, 2021)

sathyva said:


> Can’t wait for the strings articles !


i'm more interested in hearing the strings too. haha


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## Project Anvil (Jul 4, 2021)

Thanks for the continued interest, it definitely helps motivate me to get back to this. I hit a bit of a creative drought recently and had some RL on-goings that required my attention. I am slowly getting back into things, though I have to admit the most recent track I've started uses a completely different approach and doesn't have any CSS/CSW/CSB in it (save for bass pizzes, I think).

Which is to say, as much as I love the cinematic studio series, it's no silver bullet and for the kind of layering insanity I've gotten into recently, it's actually unsuitable because of the built-in delays (not just on the legatos) which makes it hard to play in on time. 

Because I don't want to show up empty-handed I can at least share how I process *CSW*, because I use the same basic settings across all instruments.

CSW:


I _only_ use the Mix microphone position. It gives the most balanced sound and has the least amount of stereo ping-ponging going on. However, by itself it's a little too forward and in-your-face, so the processing below helps address that.


Insert 1: SP2016 Eventide Reverb
Input: 0db.
Output 0db.
Mix: 100%.
Predelay: 4ms.
Decay: 200ms.
Position: 10%. (<-- this is the setting you want to vary, between 0-30% works, I find).
Diffusion: 73%.
Freq-Low: 300hz.
Low-Gain: 0db.
Freq-High 3.5khz.
High-Gain: -8db.

 Insert 2: "Stereo Enhancer" (any plugin allowing for widening/narrowing will do)
 Use the stereo enhancer to _narrow_ the sound. This serves two purposes: it pushes the instrument further back into the space and helps center the sound image. Especially with CSW there's some stereo ping-ponging going on (very noticeable on the overheads) which this helps counter). I usually end up around 70% width. Sometimes I add a bit of the "color" control too if I find it helps push the instrument back.


If you want to push the woodwinds even further back you can load a second instance, enable the Room mic and have this instrument listen to the same MIDI input as the instance with the mix mic loaded. Unfortunately you can't load both the mix and room mics at once in a single instance, so this is the only workaround for that.

Personally, I prefer to keep woodwinds pretty much dead center. Adding the Room mic as described above does already add some positional info which I find to be more than sufficient. That said, you can of course pan the processed mix mic to taste.

If you don't have the eventide SP2016 reverb, you can try to use another algorithmic reverb with a very short decay. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7QSLrc61Kk (this video) by Michael White for a more detailed explanation.






sathyva said:


> Can’t wait for the strings articles !



Don't be too excited, I don't process them that much. My adventure with CSS started in this thread by @Horacio so that should give you a starting off point at least.

While you're waiting for strings... (this is not CSS, I should add):


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## Kurosawa (Jul 4, 2021)

Project Anvil said:


> While you're waiting for strings... (this is not CSS, I should add):



Oh! Is this Berlin Strings and Vista?


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## Project Anvil (Jul 4, 2021)

Kurosawa said:


> Oh! Is this Berlin Strings and Vista?


It's Hollywood Strings, Symphobia, Kontakt Factory VSL strings, Metropolis Ark 4, Cinematic Strings 2, Abbey Road One and Sonic Implants (sonivox) strings all layered together.

All of this sh*&t


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## cqd (Jul 4, 2021)

Seems excessive..


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## Project Anvil (Jul 4, 2021)

cqd said:


> Seems excessive..


It's definitely not a fast way of working, I'll grant you that 

That said, I'm thoroughly convinced it's possible to get much more lively sounding performances out of layered libraries than any one library by itself. I for one wouldn't be able to do the kind of runs in the soundcloud snippet I posted with just one library, not unless it was a pre recorded run.

EDIT:
I would be remiss not to link to the video that started this madness, which is Farkle's video on layering:


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## gst98 (Jul 4, 2021)

cqd said:


> Seems excessive..


go on then, show us the same results without layering then


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## constaneum (Jul 7, 2021)

Project Anvil said:


> It's Hollywood Strings, Symphobia, Kontakt Factory VSL strings, Metropolis Ark 4, Cinematic Strings 2, Abbey Road One and Sonic Implants (sonivox) strings all layered together.
> 
> All of this sh*&t


That's indeed one hell of crazy layering !!!!! OMG!!


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## scoringdreams (Nov 17, 2021)

Next chapter please! (and thanks for sharing)

Project Anvil has been immensely helpful as I sort out my rather poorly routed template at the moment.


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## Project Anvil (Nov 20, 2021)

scoringdreams said:


> Next chapter please! (and thanks for sharing)
> 
> Project Anvil has been immensely helpful as I sort out my rather poorly routed template at the moment.


I'll get around to it eventually. It doesn't help that I've stumbled onto some new ideas and basically re-did the whole thing for the umpteenth time (only with HOOPUS as a basis for a change).


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## Gil (Apr 23, 2022)

Hello,
Any news on a possible HOOPUS-only project (with perhaps a bit of Spaces II to stay in the same EWQL family)? 
Regards,
Gil.


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