# Orchestral Tools: Miroire



## Casiquire (Aug 19, 2021)

Well, now that we've seen and heard it, it's time to pick apart all the info we have on it. Calling the entire force of the Legato Police and music history buffs!

In the official thread announcing Miroire, an interesting topic of discussion came up around which libraries can fill in some gaps. For example the bassoon and bass are bundled into a Basso Continuo section and are not available as individual players. I understand that the strings in Miroire are using a different style of strings and bows, but to my ears the Berlin soloists aren't different enough in timbre to stick out in a mix and they were recorded with the same room and equipment as Miroire, so i think they're the obvious choice. What about that bassoon though? VSL+MIR/Teldex, or is a baroque bassoon also similar enough in sound that you can get away with BWW? Or am i missing other obvious options?

Lastly it'll just be nice to have a place to talk openly about the library, warts and all. I find it very intriguing


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## Casiquire (Aug 19, 2021)

Whoops, someone beat me to it! Feel free to delete


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## ptram (Aug 19, 2021)

A baroque bassoon is quite different from a modern one, even if you can make the latter at least credible in a mix. The only baroque bassoon I know is Chris Hein's, that is made with the usual care, and can be placed in the Teldex with MIR. I admit I have yet to put it to use in some projects!

Paolo


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## Casiquire (Aug 19, 2021)

ptram said:


> A baroque bassoon is quite different from a modern one, even if you can make the latter at least credible in a mix. The only baroque bassoon I know if Chris Hein's, that is made with the usual care, and can be placed in the Teldex with MIR. I admit I have yet to put it to use in some projects!
> 
> Paolo


I have used that one before and it's not bad. I'm just surprised there aren't more options. I swore VSL had one but it doesn't look like it.


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## soulofsound (Aug 19, 2021)

I think OT nailed the sound. There are probably some quirks people will criticize but on the whole i think it sounds utterly convincing.


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## jbuhler (Aug 19, 2021)

Mostly, I'm just disappointed in the decision to not offer separate instruments along with the basso continuo, mostly because it severely limits the use of the strings for somewhat later historical uses, or indeed for uses in non-historical contexts where you still might want the sound of these strings.


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## CT (Aug 19, 2021)

ptram said:


> A baroque bassoon is quite different from a modern one, even if you can make the latter at least credible in a mix. The only baroque bassoon I know if Chris Hein's, that is made with the usual care, and can be placed in the Teldex with MIR. I admit I have yet to put it to use in some projects!
> 
> Paolo


If you have the old WIVI library, there are several baroque woodwinds including bassoon.


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## Evans (Aug 19, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> to my ears the Berlin soloists aren't different enough in timbre to stick out in a mix and they were recorded with the same room


Are you talking about the various soloists in the main Berlin libraries, or the actual capital S Soloists releases? Weren't the latter recorded in the solo booth and this new product in the main room?


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## Casiquire (Aug 19, 2021)

Evans said:


> Are you talking about the various soloists in the main Berlin libraries, or the actual capital S Soloists releases? Weren't the latter recorded in the solo booth and this new product in the main room?


Not their first chairs, they were recorded in the same space as Miroire and you can buy just the bass


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## Evans (Aug 19, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Not their first chairs, they were recorded in the same space as Miroire and you can buy just the bass


Got it, thanks for the clarification.


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## tonaliszt (Aug 19, 2021)

It's a super cool concept, but none of the demos are really blowing me away in terms of actually sounding like a baroque orchestra (maybe I just need to hear it with a harpsichord in the mix?). I think we just need to hear some Bach/ Vivaldi / Handel mockups with it. 

I hope they do a baroque timpani as an add-on.


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## Baronvonheadless (Aug 19, 2021)

tonaliszt said:


> It's a super cool concept, but none of the demos are really blowing me away in terms of actually sounding like a baroque orchestra (maybe I just need to hear it with a harpsichord in the mix?). I think we just need to hear some Bach/ Vivaldi / Handel mockups with it.
> 
> I hope they do a baroque timpani as an add-on.


Yeah I'm very surprised at the lack of harpsichord or an old piano etc. to round things out. I feel like the instrumentation is sliiiiiightly limited for the price. VS something like Tallin, where I feel like it's super well rounded.

Regardless, it seems cool but I also agree, not old enough sounding for an isolated concept library, at least at this point, and I'm broke anyway so not in the market.


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## fiction (Aug 19, 2021)

Cool library and could prove to be very useful. However, there's something about the upper register in the strings that I'm not enjoying very much. 

Also, I'm finding the overall tone of the demos a bit muddy.. 

Looking forward to the detailed walkthrough nonetheless.


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## muziksculp (Aug 19, 2021)

I have been wishing to see a sample developer make a Baroque Orchestral Library for over three decades. None of them bothered with it. Now .. finally .. OT does it. So I have to give them a lot of credit to be the first developer who went ahead and made such a library.

(THANK YOU ORCHESTRAL TOOLS) 

This doesn't mean they have delivered the perfect Baroque Orchestral library, no it's not perfect. That's why one of the first questions I asked was does it include a Harpsichord, well it doesn't , but you can buy their Berlin Harpsichord, which was also recorded in the Teledex Stage, and I already have it.

The Basso Continuo Instruments are not separated, so that's a bit of a compromise, but also handy to have them ready to play as one patch. Surely a Solo Baroque Bass, Cello, and Solo Bassoon would have been very nice to have. Also a Solo Violin, and Viola.

I'm very happy they included a good selection of Baroque Woodwind Instruments, Solo Oboe, Oboe D'amore, Oboe da Caccia, Alto Recorder, and Flute. Also two solo Baroque Trumpets, Trumpet1 , Trumpet 2, and Two Baroque Horns, Horn 1, Horn 2 .

I personally would have not complained if they didn't have any choirs, but that was something they felt was needed. I would have rather had the missing instruments of the BC, and some Baroque Percussion Instruments instead. But they mentioned that they were using the Bach Choral works, as a model for this library. So, I guess the vocalists were an important part of the library.

With regards to Strings, I'm obsessed with 'Timbre' of strings, as a musician I was always fascinated by the timbre of the Baroque Stringed Instruments. They sound very different to their modern counterparts, due to the design, the use of gut strings, and the Baroque Bow. I don't want to go more in detail about this, because I can, and I know quite a bit about this topic. But you can refer to many online resources, and papers that discuss and cover this in a lot of detail.

Now.. As far as using another library to emulate a Baroque Solo Instrument, i.e. The Baroque Cello, I don't know of any library that has this covered. Maybe the NI Cremona Cello, but I don't know if it was recorded using Gut Strings, and Baroque Bow. (Any one knows more about this detail ? ) If it was, then it might be a good match, with some spatial treatment to make it blend in the Teledex Stage.

I also agree that some of the audio demos do not sound very Baroque, I'm guessing that OT did not want to give the impression that this library is too focused on emulating Baroque music, but can also be used for film/TV and other media projects in many creative ways. This makes it more attractive to a wider group, rather than just Baroque Music enthusiasts. 

Funny, I still have a sizeable collection of Baroque Music CDs all using Period Instruments, that I kept, these were quite expensive to buy during the 80's, and early 90's, I used to check the sleeves of the CD's which had the info. about the makers of the Baroque Instruments used by the players, and much more, too bad these days are gone. Now I stream them on i.e. Amazon, but they have no info. to go along about the instrumentation, players, ..etc.

I will try to find a good Baroque Cello Performance on YT that could help us come close to it with our other modern Solo Cello libraries, by applying some creative sound treatments to get to a similar timbre. I know it won't be an easy task. But this should be an interesting exercise for us.

Looking forward to the Release of OT's *MIROIRE* on Sept. 2nd.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## MaxOctane (Aug 19, 2021)

All the criticisms about lack of harpsichord etc… With libs like this, I always expect that they’re more meant to expand people’s sonic palette (e.g., the slightly different sound of gut strings) and it’s not really meant for writing or mocking-up baroque pieces. I mean, are there really that many people trying to write authentic baroque, true to every instrument, tuning at 432 or 415 or whatever it was?

I see it as: baroque instruments are different, here’s a collection, write new music with them.


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## jbuhler (Aug 19, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Not their first chairs, they were recorded in the same space as Miroire and you can buy just the bass


I don't think the first chair bass will work very well for Miroire. The playing styles are so different.


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## jbuhler (Aug 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> The Basso Continuo Instruments are not separated, so that's a bit of a compromise, but also handy to have them ready to play as one patch.


Yes, I agree that having the Basso Continuo in a single patch is nice, but if I had a choice I'd have taken the separate instruments.


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## Casiquire (Aug 19, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I don't think the first chair bass will work very well for Miroire. The playing styles are so different.


I'm not so sure, though it's hard to say without owning them both. If the room and microphone sounds match, just using a non vibrato sample might go a long way


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## jbuhler (Aug 19, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I'm not so sure, though it's hard to say without owning them both. If the room and microphone sounds match, just using a non vibrato sample might go a long way



I'm not seeing that there is a non-vib setting for any of the First Chairs, at least in the Sine version. The basses from Tallinn would likely be a better match, even though it's a different space.


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## muziksculp (Aug 19, 2021)

Here is wonderful Baroque Cello Perfomance of Bach's Cello Suite. The hall he is playing in is very nice, and not over shadowing the Cello's sound with long reflections, you can hear the timbre of the Baroque Cello very clearly in this video.




And here is a performance showing the Baroque Double Bass taking playing the Cello part. To give us an idea of how the Baroque DB's timbre sounds.


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## Casiquire (Aug 19, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I'm not seeing that there is a non-vib setting for any of the First Chairs, at least in the Sine version. The basses from Tallinn would likely be a better match, even though it's a different space.


Wait i only just realized there are no non vibrato samples in there! Well that sucks. I don't think there's any such thing as a well-rounded solo strings library at this point. It's like every one has to make at least one very frustrating decision


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## muziksculp (Aug 19, 2021)

Oh... and Since we are on the topic of Period Instruments, I would also love to see a very well sampled Viola Da Gamba, that offers great performance, and playability features, plus great timbre, and sonic character. 

I know there are a few Viola Da Gamba libraries out there, but none of them convinced me enough to buy it.


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## dhmusic (Aug 19, 2021)

tonaliszt said:


> I hope they do a baroque timpani as an add-on.


Pretty sure this is in their dedicated timpani library - Berlin Percussion Exp A


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## ism (Aug 19, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Wait i only just realized there are no non vibrato samples in there! Well that sucks. I don't think there's any such thing as a well-rounded solo strings library at this point. It's like every one has to make at least one very frustrating decision


There is no single solo strings library that doesn't make you want to slam your head in a door. The miracle is that - with the best ones - sometime you don't.


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## muziksculp (Aug 19, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Pretty sure this is in their dedicated timpani library - Berlin Percussion Exp A


Yes, Thanks for reminding me.


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## tonaliszt (Aug 19, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Pretty sure this is in their dedicated timpani library - Berlin Percussion Exp A


Very cool - I didn't know that they had already done this... too many libraries to keep track of!


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 19, 2021)

I think there is a baroque timpani in the "Conservatoire Collection" from Soniccouture.

Are the strings instruments included in "Rinascimento" also recorded with gut strings and period bow?


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## Casiquire (Aug 19, 2021)

Right, i think they wanted to avoid retreading old libraries so there's no harpsichord or baroque timp included because they've all already recorded both. It kind of makes sense, like how the timpani wasn't bundled into the percussion library when the latter dropped


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## muziksculp (Aug 19, 2021)

ism said:


> There is no single solo strings library that doesn't make you want to slam your head in a door. The miracle is that - with the best ones - sometime you don't.


LOL.. They need to put a warning label on some of the so-so Solo String libraries.

Use this library at your own risk. Head slamming could result after a short period of use.


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 19, 2021)

That library sounds FANTASTIC!... But to me, it really needs a volume 2 with the following content:

- Sackbuts
- Cornetto
- Portative wooden organ
- Counter tenor
- Children chamber choir
- Pianoforte

Just sample the Concerto Palatino ensemble! I saw them live, and I had goosebumps all over me. Best live performance ever!

http://www.concertopalatino.com/


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## Soundbed (Aug 19, 2021)

I finally had a chance to listen to all the music demos on the OT site this afternoon.

I can most easily hear this library in a hybrid context for a luxury car commercial, or a promo teaser trailer for a period tv show, or a show with some sense of historical weight like The New Pope.

Also it awakened an interest in Fluffy Audio’s Rinascimento. Even though Medieval into Renaissance are earlier than Baroque, I bet someone skilled could get them to evoke a late Renaissance / early Baroque time frame.

It would take a couple months to dive into these and explore but I find the idea very attractive and peaceful. Not sure I’ll take the plunge. But the notion is quite intriguing!


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## CT (Aug 19, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Also it awakened an interest in Fluffy Audio’s Rinascimento.


I remember thinking one of the demos for that was really beautiful. Yeah I bet these would go nicely together. Soniccouture has a similar library as well.


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## YaniDee (Aug 19, 2021)

I'm not suggesting they should be included, but the lute, archlute, and theorbo were also regularly used as continuo instruments...


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## Getsumen (Aug 19, 2021)

Honestly, OT's whole expansion thing would be nice to have for non berlin stuff too. Obviously the issue there is that I presume the expansions were recorded at the same time so the mic setups were matched better, but considering that they're adding a BB layer it doesn't seem too impossible for them to consider doing this for other libs. (Although I'm not sure how economically beneficial it would be for them)


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## Soundbed (Aug 19, 2021)

fiction said:


> I'm finding the overall tone of the demos a bit muddy


I hear some undefined “muddiness” in the mid lows and lows of some of the demos but I think it could be addressed with some mixing finesse. The basso continuo has a couple mics to feature or conceal whichever instruments are necessary. And I have been using Soothe2 more and more to reduce “unwanted” instrument resonance in other libraries.


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## Soundbed (Aug 19, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Soniccouture has a similar library as well.


The Conservatoire Collection?






The Conservatoire Collection | Baroque and Renaissance Sample library for Kontakt | Soniccouture







www.soniccouture.com


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 19, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> The Conservatoire Collection?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not a single instrument from Soniccouture is duplicated in Miroire... The closest library to cover Miroire's material is the VSL Special Edition Vol.7 "Historic Instruments"... The next one would be Fluffy Audio Rinascimento... The third one would be Tari's ERA II.


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## CT (Aug 19, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> The Conservatoire Collection?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah that one! Nice stuff. This, Miroire, and Rinascimento would make a great racket. I'm a junky for baroque and pre-baroque music so maybe I'll end up with all three eventually.


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## Marcus Millfield (Aug 20, 2021)

I own Rinascimento and are very interested in Miroire. The different lutes are great in Rinascimento, but the strings not so much. Especially the viola da gamba is hard to tame. The core sound is nice, but the programming not so much. Still, these libraries will fit nicely together, although Rinascimento's recording will need some work to fit with Miroire. Miroire sounds more close, upfront and personal in the demo's versus Rinascimento.


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## Giovanni dall Camera (Aug 20, 2021)

I think I would like to have such a library, but I am still frustrated with the bad legato transitions in Tallinn which I bought. OT said after listening to those that those were no mistakes! That means, they are not going to fix it. I don't think the transitions on Miroire are as bad as the worst in in Tallinn (mainly strings and first and foremost Violins). But in the first walkthrough by Hendrik you can hear some wonky transitions, again and timing seems to be quite off for pretty simple passages.

I bought Tallinn because I found the sound was great. I am not going to buy this release, because for the price they ask I need more than great sound. I also need great playability and versatility of the patches. 400€ + tax seems a bit steep to me for quantity and quality that I assume the library will have, judging by other experiences with OT and the demo material available at this point.


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## fiction (Aug 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I hear some undefined “muddiness” in the mid lows and lows of some of the demos but I think it could be addressed with some mixing finesse. The basso continuo has a couple mics to feature or conceal whichever instruments are necessary. And I have been using Soothe2 more and more to reduce “unwanted” instrument resonance in other libraries.


Exactly what I hear. Absolutely, there's always ways to work around it, but couldn't help to notice it.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 20, 2021)

fiction said:


> Exactly what I hear. Absolutely, there's always ways to work around it, but couldn't help to notice it.


Agreed - I bet a simple HPF would do the trick.


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## Soundbed (Aug 20, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> Agreed - I bet a simple HPF would do the trick.


I’ve been using those less and less fwiw, in favor of dynamic low shelves and dynamic eq. The “mud” I was hearing wasn’t at the very bottom / sub area. I’d want to keep some of the lowest, at most using a dynamic low shelf, with a gentle 6dB per octave crossover, that only dips during the most resonant tones. Then — if I didn’t have Soothe2 — another dynamic cut or two in the 100-300Hz range, depending.


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## soulofsound (Aug 20, 2021)

Robo Rivard said:


> That library sounds FANTASTIC!... But to me, it really needs a volume 2 with the following content:
> 
> - Sackbuts
> - Cornetto
> ...


That would be so cool. Those really are timbres not found anywhere else. Theorbo too would be nice.


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## Joulupukki (Aug 21, 2021)

I think a comparison Rinascimento and Miroire is not really appropriate because Rinascimento is specifically intended for late medieval and renaissance music which differs significantly from high and late baroque (tonality, playing technique, instruments) and I would not push the limits of the respective chamber tone too much.


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## Soundbed (Aug 21, 2021)

Robo Rivard said:


> Not a single instrument from Soniccouture is duplicated in Miroire... The closest library to cover Miroire's material is the VSL Special Edition Vol.7 "Historic Instruments"... The next one would be Fluffy Audio Rinascimento... The third one would be Tari's ERA II.



Good recommendations, thanks! fwiw, @Mike T and I weren't looking for duplications. We were looking for compliments.



Joulupukki said:


> I think a comparison Rinascimento and Miroire is not really appropriate because Rinascimento is specifically intended for late medieval and renaissance music which differs significantly from high and late baroque (tonality, playing technique, instruments) and I would not push the limits of the respective chamber tone too much.


Hi! I mentioned a similar thing in my first comment when I brought it up, but you may be right that the stretch could frustrate experienced listeners... I was hoping there might be a way to turn back the clock on the Baroque aspects by adding some earlier instruments in a "hybrid" context...:


Soundbed said:


> [...] Also it awakened an interest in Fluffy Audio’s Rinascimento. Even though Medieval into Renaissance are earlier than Baroque, I bet someone skilled could get them to evoke a late Renaissance / early Baroque time frame.


In any case we were searching for ways to expand and compliment Miroire. Do you know of other individual instruments or collections to check out?


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## rrichard63 (Aug 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Do you know of other individual instruments or collections to check out?


It addition to those already mentioned, realsamples has several 18th century pianofortes, spinets and harpsichords. https://www.lootaudio.com/category/kontakt-instruments/ben-osterhouse/viola-da-gamba-kontakt (Ben Osterhouse) and CineSamples both have viola da gambas (the Cinematique Instruments one is intended to be a more modern flavor). Bolder Sounds and Orange Tree Samples both have virginals. Some of these instruments are restored originals while others are modern replicas.


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## dzilizzi (Aug 21, 2021)

This is one of those libraries that I'm not sure about. I don't really do baroque music, but I kind of like the old instruments. So buy the presale? Or just wait and get the oboes? At full price, the whole thing is not worth it for me. But all the pieces I find interesting may add up to more than the presale price. 

Hopefully a walkthrough will come out before the end of the period.


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## CT (Aug 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Good recommendations, thanks! fwiw, @Mike T and I weren't looking for duplications. We were looking for compliments.


Yes... and the era represented by Rinascimento is hardly dissimilar from Miroire; while there are years between the musical Renaissance and Baroque, there are a number of shared instruments and I don't think it's that outlandish to consider the libraries being used in concert... particularly when it comes to soloists and alternative continuo options which some seemed to be looking for.


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## muziksculp (Aug 21, 2021)

ERA II has quite a good selection of complementing instruments for Miroire. They are not exactly Baroque period instruments, but I think they can be used creatively to add color, and flair. 

ERA II : The Instruments​
*Brass*: Cornetto, Natural Trumpet & Sackbut
*Keys*: Organetto, Spinet & Virginal
*Percussion*: Claps, Kettle Drum, Church Bells, Frame Drums, Hand Drums , Snares, Tambourines
*Bowed Strings*: Bowed Psaltery, Fidule , Nyckelharpa, Viola de Roda, Fiddle Grooves, Hurdy Gurdy Chanters & Grooves, Tromba Marina, Viola da Gamba
*Plucked Strings*: Baroque Guitar, Bass Citole, Early Renaissance Bray Harp, Early Renaissance Harp, Gittern, Gothic Harp, Langeleik, Medieval Lute, Medieval Psaltery, Psaltery (beaten), Renaissance Lute, Small Psaltery Plucked & Zither
*Voices*: Tavern Singers Shouts, Tavern Singers
*Winds*: 2 Holed Flute, Gemshorn, Traditional Soprano Recorder, Traditional Wooden Flute, Whistle, Wooden Transverse Flute, Renaissance Recorder (Alto, Bass, Soprano & Tenor)
*Reeds*: Bagpipes, Crumhorn (Alto, Bass, Soprano & Tenor), Shawms, Bombarde, Chirimia
*War Horns*: Anyafil Calls, Anyafil, Celtiberic War Horn, Shofar Calls, Shofar & War Horn


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## Toecutter (Aug 22, 2021)

For someone who already got Rinascimento, TCC and the Tari stuff, is there any real value in Miroire? Choirs instantly caught my attention but I'm not so sure about the rest?


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## muziksculp (Aug 22, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> For someone who already got Rinascimento, TCC and the Tari stuff, is there any real value in Miroire? Choirs instantly caught my attention but I'm not so sure about the rest?


Sure there is lots of value. 

Miroire offers you Authentic Baroque Strings, Baroque Woodwinds, Baroque Brass. Instruments, I don't know of that many libraries that offer these instruments, especially being recorded in Teledex stage, they should sound great.

But this depends if you are into Baroque instruments, or need them for a project, I'm a big fan of Baroque Period music. So, it was an instant buy for me. You might not view Miroire like I do. So, it might just be a luxury that you don't really need. It all depends.


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## GeorgeThatMusicGuy (Aug 22, 2021)

I actually feel Miroire is very overpriced. It only has 15 instruments after all.


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## ptram (Aug 22, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> For someone who already got Rinascimento, TCC and the Tari stuff, is there any real value in Miroire?


I'm awaiting for some walkthroughs to understand better. The audio demos say more Nyman than Baroque, but this would make sense, since baroque music mock-ups would be much less commercially attractive than a tool for a modern stylized version of baroque.

I wouldn't include Tari's libraries in the comparison, since they are not really intended for baroque or Nyman. Rinascimento seems to me to have a different aim, with a library of neutrally sampled instruments and not so heavily characterized. But, as I say, I’m awaiting for a walkthrough.

As for VSL overlapping instruments, I wonder how they sound in a virtual space, and how much they can really overlap the OT ones in actual use.

Paolo


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## muziksculp (Aug 22, 2021)

*VSL*'s VIPro based *Solo Violin 2* has a nice timbre for Baroque performance, check out some of the audio and video demos at VSL. The J.S. Bach Audio demos sound wonderful. 

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Solo_Strings_Bundle/Solo_Violin_2#!Demos


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## ptram (Aug 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> *VSL*'s VIPro based *Solo Violin 2* has a nice timbre for Baroque performance


The same for Violoncello 2. These could eventually be a complement to Miroire, with the Teldex room. Not recorded with gut strings and baroque bow, but playing with the attack might work.

I wonder how the cornetto, flute and oboe of the two libraries can work as _primo_ and _secondo_ when paired.

Paolo


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## muziksculp (Aug 22, 2021)

ptram said:


> The same for Violoncello 2. These could eventually be a complement to Miroire, with the Teldex room. Not recorded with gut strings and baroque bow, but playing with the attack might work.


Yes, For sure.  

I have been experimenting with the VSL Cello 2 as well. and It sounds very good so far, with layering and some creative programming in VI-Pro . Especially since they have no-vibrato patches which are perfect for Baroque style writing.


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## muziksculp (Aug 22, 2021)

Both VSL Solo Violin 2, and Cello 2 sound wonderful. They don't sound exactly like a Baroque Instrument, but with a bit of EQ, and editing in VI-Pro, they can be a bit more convincing that they are period instruments when used in that context. 

But, I would still love to see OT release an expansion library for Miroire that offers some of the missing solo instruments, and some additional ones in the future.


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## muziksculp (Aug 22, 2021)

Hi,

Another option for the Solo Strings are the Sample Modeling Solo Strings. 

I'm currently messing around with the Sample Modeling Solo Cello. Trying to program it as much as I can to sound close to a Baroque Cello, so far, the results are promising. But be prepared to spend a good chunk of time with it. I think timbre wise, it is quite flexible because of the Timbral-Shaping, which is unique. 

I will save the Baroque Solo Cello version, and post a short clip to get your opinions when I feel I'm ready to demo it. I will also work on programming the Solo Violin next. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 22, 2021)

In what language is the name of the library? Is it mirror in english? In french it's miroir without the e.


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 22, 2021)

I navigated thru the SINE Store, and it seems that we can't buy the Baroque Timpani all by itself.


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## muziksculp (Aug 22, 2021)

Robo Rivard said:


> I navigated thru the SINE Store, and it seems that we can't buy the Baroque Timpani all by itself.


Baroque Timpani is an expansion OT Perc. library, it is still in Kontakt format, which OT has not yet ported to SINE, I'm guessing you can buy it by itself when it is available in SINE format.

Only SINE format libraries can be purchased ala-carte. Not Kontakt format libraries.


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Baroque Timpani is an expansion OT Perc. library, it is still in Kontakt format, which OT has not yet ported to SINE, I'm guessing you can buy it by itself when it is available in SINE format.
> 
> Only SINE format libraries can be purchased ala-carte. Not Kontakt format libraries.


They shouldn't use it in their demos then, or just include it in the Miroire package as an extra instrument for free. We shouldn't have to pay for a full percussion package that we don't want just to be able to use the matching Baroque Timpani... The harpsichord at least can be purchased separately (I already own it).


----------



## Getsumen (Aug 22, 2021)

Robo Rivard said:


> They shouldn't use it in their demos then, or just include it in the Miroire package as an extra instrument for free. We shouldn't have to pay for a full percussion package that we don't want just to be able to use the matching Baroque Timpani... The harpsichord at least can be purchased separately (I already own it).


I mean OT and pretty much every other dev always have demos in context with other instruments.

Also, I'm not sure if I would call a Timpani library a full percussion package when it's just a timpani.

I'm also quite confused as to why it's being referred to as a Baroque Timpani by people in this thread. It's labeled as Baroque mallets, not Timpani in the library, although maybe it's somehow the same thing? I dunno, not a huge instrument history buff.


----------



## ptram (Aug 23, 2021)

Robo Rivard said:


> In what language is the name of the library? Is it mirror in english? In french it's miroir without the e.


Baroque French, me think.

Paolo


----------



## korruptkey (Aug 23, 2021)

I love this sound... Preordered and I'm now baroque. 🤭


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 23, 2021)

korruptkey said:


> I love this sound... Preordered and I'm now baroque. 🤭


out of Monet.


----------



## Toecutter (Aug 23, 2021)

Waiting for the walkthrough


----------



## AudioLoco (Aug 24, 2021)

I was very excited about this until I heard the demos.
Legato Police says no.


----------



## chrisav (Aug 24, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> I was very excited about this until I heard the demos.
> Legato Police says no.


Computer says no


----------



## philippebaylac (Aug 24, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I have been wishing to see a sample developer make a Baroque Orchestral Library for over three decades. None of them bothered with it. Now .. finally .. OT does it. So I have to give them a lot of credit to be the first developer who went ahead and made such a library.
> 
> (THANK YOU ORCHESTRAL TOOLS)
> 
> ...


Hi Musiksculp,

Despite the baroque "Champion's League" genre demonstrations, I still decided to buy this new library. Even incomplete, we can't afford to miss the first of its kind. The choir particularly caught my attention, and I think I will do a first try with a cantata by Bach. Coupled with VSL's Historic Winds and a harpsichord / organ, I think there is a way to do something!


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 24, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> Hi Musiksculp,
> 
> Despite the baroque "Champion's League" genre demonstrations, I still decided to buy this new library. Even incomplete, we can't afford to miss the first of its kind. The choir particularly caught my attention, and I think I will do a first try with a cantata by Bach. Coupled with VSL's Historic Winds and a harpsichord / organ, I think there is a way to do something!


Hi @philippebaylac ,

Nice to see you on VI-C, I love your Baroque tracks using VSL, you are a master in this genre, and I look forward to hear your demo tracks using Miroire with VSL Instruments. 

Do you have the VSL Solo Cello 2, and Solo Violin 2 I think they might be suitable as well, with a bit of EQ edits, to work with Miroire. I always wished that VSL would develop a top of the line Baroque Strings library, but sadly they didn't so far.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic (Aug 26, 2021)




----------



## Chungus (Aug 26, 2021)

What stood out to me the most in that is that BS and BWW are apparently on SINE.


----------



## dzilizzi (Aug 26, 2021)

Chungus said:


> What stood out to me the most in that is that BS and BWW are apparently on SINE.


I initially thought it was supposed to happen after the last big Kontakt sale. But maybe they were having the same problems with it and Sine as BSS had? They are big libraries. Just supposition on my part.


----------



## Casiquire (Aug 26, 2021)

Chungus said:


> What stood out to me the most in that is that BS and BWW are apparently on SINE.


What do you mean?


----------



## Evans (Aug 26, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> What do you mean?


Around 3:00 in the walkthrough (and ~3:43), there are comparisons against Berlin Strings and Berlin Woodwinds, all within SINE. Given the wording in the video, I don't think this is against BSS or Soloists. I was only listening on phone, so I didn't have much scrutiny on it.


----------



## Chungus (Aug 26, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> What do you mean?


Check the walkthrough at around 2:50, it shows a violins 2. There are no separate 2nd violins in Miroire. Furthermore, the narrator mentions comparing the violins from Miroire and BS, and you can clearly see the audio meter moving in the SINE player when the latter example plays. Same for the oboe.


dzilizzi said:


> I initially thought it was supposed to happen after the last big Kontakt sale. But maybe they were having the same problems with it and Sine as BSS had? They are big libraries. Just supposition on my part.


Indeed. But given the above, I think we're close now. :D


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 26, 2021)

Seeing BS and Berlin Woodwinds playing in SINE in the Walkthrough, is a good sign that BS and BWW will be released in SINE soon.  And I'm sure they will sound better, and more polished than the way they did in Kontakt. Super excited about this. This was a nice little teaser by OT. 

Also looking forward to play with Miroire on Sept. 2nd.


----------



## Werty (Aug 27, 2021)

Well I am speechless, it sounds amazing, and it's interesting the fact that the walkthrough sounds better than the audio demos, with the exception of the track "Miroire Trailer".


----------



## Ruffian Price (Aug 27, 2021)

Portato + LEG, baby! It's the best feature in the Amber quartet, a quasi-Active Bow baked dynamics sound.


----------



## Werty (Aug 27, 2021)

Ruffian Price said:


> Portato + LEG, baby! It's the best feature in the Amber quartet, a quasi-Active Bow baked dynamics sound.


Long gone are the days where you had to re-eq every note because one was too nasal, next one was too synthy and next one was too fake.


----------



## Ruffian Price (Aug 27, 2021)

Fixed 190ms delay on the short syllables <3 Love that this is finally catching on, would prefer to have the value instead of "(time-aligned)" in the articulation name though (especially after having to dig through Google Cache because I forgot the values for discontinued PS libs).


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 27, 2021)

i have a feeling this is one I'll kick myself for passing on.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 27, 2021)

anyone run into this when activating Sine?

sent a support message to OT.


----------



## Casiquire (Aug 27, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> anyone run into this when activating Sine?
> 
> sent a support message to OT.


Guess you won't be kicking yourself then! Congrats, once you're up and running let us know what you think


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 27, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Guess you won't be kicking yourself then! Congrats, once you're up and running let us know what you think


ha! yes, I thought this problem could save me some $$$.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 27, 2021)

@Zoot_Rollo ,

So.. I see You couldn't resist getting Miroire.  (Wise decision)

_*Congratulations ! *_


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @Zoot_Rollo ,
> 
> So.. I see You couldn't resist getting Miroire.  (Wise decision)
> 
> _*Congratulations ! *_


I didn't since I can't run Sine.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 27, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> I didn't since I can't run Sine.


OH... That's a bummer, hopefully you can sort it out. SINE has been solid on my PC. 

Are you on Mac or PC ?


----------



## Laptoprabbit (Aug 27, 2021)

Just to throw some water on the flame -- reminding everyone about the incredibly shallow sampling on Phoenix plucked instruments. My advice is not to pre-order and avoid nasty surprises, given OT's damaged reputation.


----------



## dzilizzi (Aug 27, 2021)

Laptoprabbit said:


> Just to throw some water on the flame -- reminding everyone about the incredibly shallow sampling on Phoenix plucked instruments. My advice is not to pre-order and avoid nasty surprises, given OT's damaged reputation.


Too late now.....  

Though I have to say, I did listen to the walkthrough on Phoenix and decided not to buy. None of the sounds made me sit up and take notice. I normally listened to the walkthroughs while I'm doing something else, so if the sound I'm hearing makes me stop what I'm doing and watch, it is a good thing to get. 

I always look at it this way. If there are enough single instruments that I would pay 40 euros each for to add up to 249 euros, it is worth it. Hearing the horns put it over the top for me. So I pre-ordered. I would not pay full price for this though. I'd rather buy the individual things I am interested in.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> OH... That's a bummer, hopefully you can sort it out. SINE has been solid on my PC.
> 
> Are you on Mac or PC ?


PC - I have 2 support requests sent to OT.

I have all the Arks and First Chairs running fine on Kontakt.

I was hoping to move them to Sine.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 27, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> PC - I have 2 support requests sent to OT.
> 
> I have all the Arks and First Chairs running fine on Kontakt.
> 
> I was hoping to move them to Sine.


I see. Not all the Arks have been ported to SINE yet, I think only ARK 1 & 2. 

So, you have never used SINE on your PC, you might want to un-install, and re-install SINE it to see if that helps. Hopefully OT Support will help you fix the issue.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I see. Not all the Arks have been ported to SINE yet, I think only ARK 1 & 2.
> 
> So, you have never used SINE on your PC, you might want to un-install, and re-install SINE it to see if that helps. Hopefully OT Support will help you fix the issue.


Installed, uninstalled, reinstalled -

still getting:

No response from the webservice.
Installation could not be activated
nested: Request failed.
RESTCallError - The REST call failed.

OT, to their credit, has already reached out.

I'm sure this will get resolved.

and yes, only Ark 1 and 2 so far. oh, and First Chairs.


----------



## Casiquire (Aug 27, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> I didn't since I can't run Sine.


Oh! Sorry i thought you meant you had trouble activating the library, not SINE itself. You haven't picked it up yet then?


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 27, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Oh! Sorry i thought you meant you had trouble activating the library, not SINE itself. You haven't picked it up yet then?


i have not - once i get Sine running, I'll decide.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 27, 2021)

It could be that SINE is not able to go online to check your account, and update its database.

Not sure why you have this issue, but it points to some kind of internet access problem with SINE not able go online. (Just guessing from the error message you are getting).


----------



## Getsumen (Aug 27, 2021)

Laptoprabbit said:


> Just to throw some water on the flame -- reminding everyone about the incredibly shallow sampling on Phoenix plucked instruments. My advice is not to pre-order and avoid nasty surprises, given OT's damaged reputation.


Dunno about damaged reputation, but OT has been very clear about the sampling this time around.

They've given RR amounts, dynamic layer amounts, syllable counts for the choir, etc.

So there should be no surprises for people when they purchase this lib when all the info is out there.

For those who don't want to scroll around, there are RR's this time, the one caveat is there are only 2 dynamic layers for some instruments because according to them, the Baroque style instruments don't have as much of a large range as modern instruments.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 27, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> For those who don't want to scroll around, there are RR's this time, the one caveat is there are only 2 dynamic layers for some instruments because according to them, the Baroque style instruments don't have as much of a large range as modern instruments.


i found that to be an eyebrow raiser.


----------



## Casiquire (Aug 27, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> i found that to be an eyebrow raiser.


I don't tbh. Didn't Renaissance composers not even mark dynamics, and then when they finally started in baroque times, didn't they mainly just mark p or f?


----------



## Laptoprabbit (Aug 27, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Dunno about damaged reputation, but OT has been very clear about the sampling this time around.
> 
> They've given RR amounts, dynamic layer amounts, syllable counts for the choir, etc.
> 
> ...


I would prefer the info not to be "out there," but made clear on the store page for each instrument.

OT used to release detailed sampling notes for their old stuff. They don't anymore.





Berlin Series - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Common questions and support documentation




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com





Phoenix is $589 full price and a nearly a whole section of instruments has 1 RR. We had to download it to find out. Damaged reputation to me? Absolutely. 

And this from someone who loves TIME micro, Special Bows, etc.


----------



## CT (Aug 27, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I don't tbh. Didn't Renaissance composers not even mark dynamics, and then when they finally started in baroque times, didn't they mainly just mark p or f?


That doesn't determine the practical dynamic range of an instrument though. These older instruments are certainly not as powerful as modern equivalents, but I'm pretty over 2 as a number for dynamic layers, both on grounds of timbral difference and how conspicuous crossfades tend to be with fewer layers. Same things that let me down with Tallinn. It's a shame but this library won't be for me in terms of its execution.


----------



## Casiquire (Aug 27, 2021)

Mike T said:


> That doesn't determine the practical dynamic range of an instrument though. These older instruments are certainly not as powerful as modern equivalents, but I'm pretty over 2 as a number for dynamic layers, both on grounds of timbral difference and how conspicuous crossfades tend to be with fewer layers. Same things that let me down with Tallinn. It's a shame but this library won't be for me in terms of its execution.


While i get that, I've also been surprised with libraries i thought were limited in the past. Like the LASS Sordinos which i believe also have two layers yet sound beautiful and expressive. Or SSP and VSL woodwinds, still regarded as some of the best on the market. I think it's premature to judge its execution.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 27, 2021)

switching to WIFI allowed me to activate Sine.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 27, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> switching to WIFI allowed me to activate Sine.


Cool. So, it was an Internet access problem with SINE. Did you figure out why it wasn't accessing the net without WIFI ?


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Cool. So, it was an Internet access problem with SINE. Did you figure out why it wasn't accessing the net without WIFI ?


No idea why it won't work without wifi

I had a similar situation with Wall of Sound license activation. Now with wifi, WoS activates in Reaper but still not in Studio One

Reaper always works


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 27, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> No idea why it won't work without wifi
> 
> I had a similar situation with Wall of Sound license activation. Now with wifi, WoS activates in Reaper but still not in Studio One
> 
> Reaper always works


Strange. Did you launch SINE as a standalone Application when you tried to use it without WIFI ?

I never use SINE in my DAW when I try to purchase/authorize or Install a SINE Library. The DAW should not be a factor. Use SINE as standalone to purchase/Install SINE libraries, then use it in your DAW.


----------



## jbuhler (Aug 27, 2021)

Mike T said:


> That doesn't determine the practical dynamic range of an instrument though. These older instruments are certainly not as powerful as modern equivalents, but I'm pretty over 2 as a number for dynamic layers, both on grounds of timbral difference and how conspicuous crossfades tend to be with fewer layers. Same things that let me down with Tallinn. It's a shame but this library won't be for me in terms of its execution.


The thing with Tallinn is that it doesn’t go loud, but it has very nice low dynamics and because they choose the two dynamic layers on the soft side, the crossfades between layers are not abrupt. There’s an issue that it doesn’t go loud, perhaps, but it doesn’t suffer from the missing middle of loud/soft two layer sampling. I find this method works very well for my uses for the strings and choir. I would have preferred some more shorts and more round robins on the string shorts. And the timing of the choir syllables is not good, almost unusable.

In the case of these strings I do worry that they will be using loud/soft layers that will yield a missing middle. I did notice the timed syllables for the choir so hopefully the results will be better with this choir than Tallinn’s.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Strange. Did you launch SINE as a standalone Application when you tried to use it without WIFI ?
> 
> I never use SINE in my DAW when I try to purchase/authorize or Install a SINE Library. The DAW should not be a factor. Use SINE as standalone to purchase/Install SINE libraries, then use it in your DAW.


yes, Standalone.


----------



## CT (Aug 27, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> While i get that, I've also been surprised with libraries i thought were limited in the past. Like the LASS Sordinos which i believe also have two layers yet sound beautiful and expressive. Or SSP and VSL woodwinds, still regarded as some of the best on the market. I think it's premature to judge its execution.


Much depends on the meticulousness of the programming I suppose. I'm judging based on my experience with Tallinn, which is the only OT library I own, although I've heard similar things in demos of other libraries of theirs (and most other developers too it must be said). I agree with jbuhler that the Tallinn string crossfades are fairly successful because the gap between what was sampled isn't large, but it's still one of those things that nags at me every time I use it. No matter the instrument nor the style of music, it just feels inhibiting to move a dynamic controller and have essentially nothing happen but a change of volume for wide stretches of the CC range. This is a general, growing frustration I have with samples, and I guess Miroire is just coming along at the wrong time for me to be enthusiastic about it as a result. Ah well.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 27, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Much depends on the meticulousness of the programming I suppose. I'm judging based on my experience with Tallinn, which is the only OT library I own, although I've heard similar things in demos of other libraries of theirs (and most other developers too it must be said). I agree with jbuhler that the Tallinn string crossfades are fairly successful because the gap between what was sampled isn't large, but it's still one of those things that nags at me every time I use it. No matter the instrument nor the style of music, it just feels inhibiting to move a dynamic controller and have essentially nothing happen but a change of volume for wide stretches of the CC range. This is a general, growing frustration I have with samples, and I guess Miroire is just coming along at the wrong time for me to be enthusiastic about it as a result. Ah well.


JXL Brass is unique in OT's catalog in this regard - 5 dynamic layers. Hopefully more developers will move to that standard - Spitfire is already doing that for all the Abbey Road stuff.


----------



## Covent Garden (Aug 28, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> No idea why it won't work without wifi
> 
> I had a similar situation with Wall of Sound license activation. Now with wifi, WoS activates in Reaper but still not in Studio One
> 
> Reaper always works


If you have more than one network (Ethernet + WiFi f.e.) adapter Windows sometimes fails to get the right routing table to internet. The first issue could be, when you don't have specified a Standard Gateway (settings on the adpapter which provides internet). I have a Domain Network AND a Network for Internet with different permissions and f.e. Steinberg / Cubase Downloader failed and I have to cut (disabling adapter) the Domain Network to be able to get updates - even if I have set my Standard Gateway to Internet on my Internet Network Adapter correctly (Browser reaches internet without problems). Sometimes the Apps are bad programmed in case of multiple network acceleration. Funny, but I recognized, that this behavior often concerns audio tools ... (Plugins, Downloader, ...)
Hope my bad english is good enough to explain the possible problems ...
Cheers!


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 28, 2021)

Covent Garden said:


> If you have more than one network (Ethernet + WiFi f.e.) adapter Windows sometimes fails to get the right routing table to internet. The first issue could be, when you don't have specified a Standard Gateway (settings on the adpapter which provides internet). I have a Domain Network AND a Network for Internet with different permissions and f.e. Steinberg / Cubase Downloader failed and I have to cut (disabling adapter) the Domain Network to be able to get updates - even if I have set my Standard Gateway to Internet on my Internet Network Adapter correctly (Browser reaches internet without problems). Sometimes the Apps are bad programmed in case of multiple network acceleration. Funny, but I recognized, that this behavior often concerns audio tools ... (Plugins, Downloader, ...)
> Hope my bad english is good enough to explain the possible problems ...
> Cheers!


thank you for the info.


----------



## Covent Garden (Aug 28, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> thank you for the info.


You're welcome. The problem is the Network Location Awareness Tool which was implemented in Windows 7 / Server 2008 and causes a lot of weired behaviors in multiple network enviroments and I had even a lot of issues with Windows Server machines. 
But now it's time for Miroire ...


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 28, 2021)

Covent Garden said:


> You're welcome. The problem is the Network Location Awareness Tool which was implemented in Windows 7 / Server 2008 and causes a lot of weired behaviors in multiple network enviroments and I had even a lot of issues with Windows Server machines.
> But now it's time for Miroire ...


beyond my paygrade.

Sine works now, so...

but doesn't explain why the Wall of Sound license downloads in Reaper but not Studio One. 

does it?


----------



## Covent Garden (Aug 29, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> beyond my paygrade.
> 
> Sine works now, so...
> 
> ...


Not really, because there are "standard behaviors" how to deal with Network Routes and DNS resolving and now it comes to the sound developers (others too). It's like other standards like USB - not everyone comply with technical standards (f.e. USB 3.0 does not have cables longer than 1,50 m). so the PC world is a very heterogeneous environment so a USB HUB does work on a Gigabyte Board and does not on an ASUS Board f.e.. The same with software tools and programming. I've contacted the Steinberg Support and they've told me that expenditure is way too much to program their Downloader for mulitple network environments. BUT a seperate Domain Network is highly recommended for security reasons in bsuiness. So for me it feels like "Quick & Dirty" programming. Same like Website programming for different browsers - that's awful and html 5 is a standard too. So maybe a) Studio One has a bug or b) Sine Player (with shop / Download feature) has some bugs or c) take a look on your firewall (windows or another virus scanner) or d) the network adapter driver could also be an issue or e) the DNS resolver of OT. 

Some DAWs limit internet traffic, because it is able to cause pops and clicks. I prefer downloading and installing OT Sine libs standalone to avoid issues. BTW if you have installed and activated libs you can use them in Studio One without problems? Only buying/downloading licenses issue during that procedere? Or Sine does not work in Studio One?

Sorry, but to sperate possible issues is a hard job ...


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 29, 2021)

Covent Garden said:


> Some DAWs limit internet traffic, because it is able to cause pops and clicks. I prefer downloading and installing OT Sine libs standalone to avoid issues. BTW if you have installed and activated libs you can use them in Studio One without problems? Only buying/downloading licenses issue during that procedere? Or Sine does not work in Studio One?
> 
> Sorry, but to sperate possible issues is a hard job ...


Sine works fine now, as standalone and in both of my DAWs (Studio One Pro 5.3 and Reaper).

Sine is no longer an issue.

I'll start a separate thread in the DAW area about Wall of Sound.

Thank you again for the great replies!


----------



## holywilly (Aug 29, 2021)

And it’s time to pre-order Miroire.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 31, 2021)

So excited to play the Miroire Baroque Oboe


----------



## RSK (Aug 31, 2021)

Money is tight these days. I would buy Miroire, but then I'd be baroque.


----------



## MaxOctane (Aug 31, 2021)




----------



## RSK (Aug 31, 2021)

Some of the legatos aren't very smooth. I think they're baroquen.


----------



## RSK (Aug 31, 2021)

A priest and a rabbi walk into a baroque.....


----------



## RSK (Aug 31, 2021)

Sorry. I take Bach that last joke.


----------



## DSorah (Aug 31, 2021)

Ok. That’s too much for me to Handel, RSK!


----------



## RSK (Aug 31, 2021)

What's wrong with all the orchestral libraries we had before this? I mean, if it ain't baroque, don't fix it.


----------



## Baronvonheadless (Aug 31, 2021)

Aw Schütz! All the good composer jokes are taken. Whatever, I don’t leclaire. I’ll just build my broken ego back up like a skilled charpenteir


----------



## David Baran (Sep 1, 2021)

I'm going to ask a seemingly dumb question....who exactly is this aimed for? Like what type of composer and at what level is this library aimed for? I understand what it could be used for but I am more curious about who is the "ideal" customer base for this product or who is it seemingly marketed towards? It seems very niche and limited although it does something different.


----------



## Baronvonheadless (Sep 1, 2021)

David Baran said:


> I'm going to ask a seemingly dumb question....who exactly is this aimed for? Like what type of composer and at what level is this library aimed for? I understand what it could be used for but I am more curious about who is the "ideal" customer base for this product or who is it seemingly marketed towards? It seems very niche and limited although it does something different.


I would think it would be an amazing palette for RPGs and fantasy stuff. Perhaps. Or period pieces where they want original music but I guess all that stuff is free reign


----------



## Baronvonheadless (Sep 1, 2021)

btw, any release date? I am hoping it’s tomorrow since pre order ends tomorrow?


----------



## muziksculp (Sep 1, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> btw, any release date? I am hoping it’s tomorrow since pre order ends tomorrow?


Yes, Sept. 2nd is the release date.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 1, 2021)

David Baran said:


> I'm going to ask a seemingly dumb question....who exactly is this aimed for? Like what type of composer and at what level is this library aimed for? I understand what it could be used for but I am more curious about who is the "ideal" customer base for this product or who is it seemingly marketed towards? It seems very niche and limited although it does something different.


Anybody who wants to record music with period instruments lol! "But it's missing some dynamic layers and it bundled these two instruments which should have been recorded separately!" Sure, but this is the best you can get right now and the market is so niche that i kind of believe this was the absolute best cost/benefit compromise


----------



## DSorah (Sep 1, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> btw, any release date? I am hoping it’s tomorrow since pre order ends tomorrow?


Yes! I just placed my order. I have been eyeing this for a while. Excited to release my inner Bach. 😆


----------



## Baronvonheadless (Sep 1, 2021)

DSorah said:


> Yes! I just placed my order. I have been eyeing this for a while. Excited to release my inner Bach. 😆


Go nuts brah! Don't hold Bach even if you think it's too much to handle!


----------



## muziksculp (Sep 1, 2021)

Let's all BA-Rock-N-Roll, As we did last Summer


----------



## Baronvonheadless (Sep 1, 2021)

Well, it’s technically the 2nd now. Move your asses orchestral tools  😜


----------



## DSorah (Sep 2, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Well, it’s technically the 2nd now. Move your asses orchestral tools  😜


I keep refreshing my SINE player awaiting its arrival...


----------



## DSorah (Sep 2, 2021)

DSorah said:


> I keep refreshing my SINE player awaiting its arrival...


It's available. Downloading now! Time to party like it's 1699.


----------



## MaxOctane (Sep 2, 2021)

DSorah said:


> It's available. Downloading now! Time to party like it's 1699.


Damnit! I was about to go to bed…


----------



## holywilly (Sep 2, 2021)

DSorah said:


> It's available. Downloading now! Time to party like it's 1699.


Damn, I just left studio.


----------



## Futchibon (Sep 2, 2021)

A bit too niche for me to justify the whole collection, but interested in what people's fave individual instruments are as I'll probably pick up a few ala carte.

Choir and basso continuo seem to be the standout in the walkthrough?


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## Casiquire (Sep 2, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> A bit too niche for me to justify the whole collection, but interested in what people's fave individual instruments are as I'll probably pick up a few ala carte.
> 
> Choir and basso continuo seem to be the standout in the walkthrough?


The wooden flutes!


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 2, 2021)

Here is my first little sketch with it, just minimal stuff. Cineharpsichord with the miroire violins/violas, bass continuo, flute, and wind fanfare patches


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## dzilizzi (Sep 2, 2021)

I keep thinking the download is baroquen. I forget Sine doesn't continue to show downloaded products in the download window. "It's still stuck on the first one!!!"


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## Fidelity (Sep 2, 2021)

Just bought the violins alone (totally dope that they're selling this a la carte) and love how different they sound. Almost...brassy in a mix. Confusing and wonderful.


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## DSorah (Sep 2, 2021)

Here’s a very simple clip i created in around 30 minutes just to see how the library sounds. I am going to have a lot of fun with this library. It also includes Spitfire Harpsichord and Timpani (from Spitfire percussion). Some balance issues I’ll work out tomorrow as I try to add some finesse.


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## Casiquire (Sep 2, 2021)

I love the sounds I'm hearing! 

The more i think about it the more i believe they could have offered a pared down set of basic samples from the harpsichord library with a sweet crossgrade offer for the full thing. It wouldn't have cost them anything at all and might have inspired more sales for the harpsichords and would have helped the library's sense of completeness. 

All that aside though i love these first reactions.



DSorah said:


> Here’s a very simple clip i created in around 30 minutes just to see how the library sounds. I am going to have a lot of fun with this library. It also includes Spitfire Harpsichord and Timpani (from Spitfire percussion). Some balance issues I’ll work out tomorrow as I try to add some finesse.


Nice work. I notice the choir is off rhythm. Are you using the patches that use predelay? And do they really help much? Just curious!


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## DSorah (Sep 2, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I love the sounds I'm hearing!
> 
> The more i think about it the more i believe they could have offered a pared down set of basic samples from the harpsichord library with a sweet crossgrade offer for the full thing. It wouldn't have cost them anything at all and might have inspired more sales for the harpsichords and would have helped the library's sense of completeness.
> 
> ...


Agreed. A harpsichord and timpani would have been the perfect combination to complete this library. I used the aligned syllables, but still needed some pre-delay on the choir. I need to spend more time lining everything up. May take a bit of tinkering.


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## Rudianos (Sep 2, 2021)

Never thought I would be able to stick my head right into a Baroque bass. Hear that resin!??? Orchestral Tools did it!

View attachment Basso Trem.mp3


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## Dan (Sep 2, 2021)

I downloaded Miroire today and immediately tried it on some Bach. The choir legatos are simply amazing in my opinion.


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## Futchibon (Sep 2, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I love the sounds I'm hearing!
> 
> The more i think about it the more i believe they could have offered a pared down set of basic samples from the harpsichord library with a sweet crossgrade offer for the full thing. It wouldn't have cost them anything at all and might have inspired more sales for the harpsichords and would have helped the library's sense of completeness.


Agreed, it's a bit stingy not to include a harpsicord as it's such an integral part of that sound; FLuffy included a harpsicord and organ in their similar library.

Xperimenta's harpsicord is great value, only $9.90 at audioplugin deals with credits.

Downloading Basso Continuo now! Hopefully the downloado is not interupto!


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## rrichard63 (Sep 2, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> Xperimenta's harpsicord is great value ...


I like the Xperimenta harpsichord but not specifically for baroque music. To me, it sounds like a modern instrument rather than a historic one. That said, yes, it is a great value.


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## jbuhler (Sep 2, 2021)

Thanks everyone for posting examples and I hope you continue to do so, though it's not helping me keep my wallet in my pocket...


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## Getsumen (Sep 2, 2021)

Dan said:


> I downloaded Miroire today and immediately tried it on some Bach. The choir legatos are simply amazing in my opinion.



Damn that choir does sound pretty good


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## MaxOctane (Sep 2, 2021)

As a counterpoint to everyone complaining… I hate the harpsichord sound and would never use it. The instruments in this collection are great. I’m not planning to do 1600’s rendition (shrug)


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 2, 2021)

So I'm working on a commission where I am re-arranging a friends song into an instrumental, so I decided to take the opportunity and do it baroque style. Here's what I just came up with today. Thoughts? I never studied baroque so here's my botched attempt to make it sound similar to bach/handel even if it came out a little Harry Nilsson haha!

98% Miroire, with a dash of Abbey Road and BBC timpani/percussion and Joshua Bell Violin/Chris Hein Cello on a few select parts!


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## Dan (Sep 2, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Damn that choir does sound pretty good


Here is only the choir with all processing removed:


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## Rudianos (Sep 2, 2021)

Dan said:


> Here is only the choir with all processing removed:



just gorgeous choir. worth the price by itself


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## Futchibon (Sep 2, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> just gorgeous choir. worth the price by itself


Or you can buy them for €49 each!


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## szczaw (Sep 3, 2021)

Prototyped
View attachment Miroire.mp3


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## szczaw (Sep 3, 2021)

Some plucked instruments would be nice to have in the collection.


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## babylonwaves (Sep 3, 2021)

Just in case anybody need those, the latest update released today features Expression Maps etc. for Miroire:






Art Conductor 7.6 - Available Now - Adds OT Berlin Orchestra (Berklee) and VSL Woodwinds + Historic Winds


Also, as I mentioned about the Olympus Elements > True Legato folder, the articulations are not correct. There are mappings for a bunch of syllables that the instrument doesn't have. It's seems to have been copy/pasted from a different instrument. @Elmakai thanks for pointing this out. We'll...




vi-control.net


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 3, 2021)

szczaw said:


> Some plucked instruments would be nice to have in the collection.


I was curious about (as far as the strings go) the lack of pizzicatos too...was that not a technique in early music or something? 

But yeah, a lute or early guitar or something could have been cool.


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## ism (Sep 3, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> I was curious about (as far as the strings go) the lack of pizzicatos too...was that not a technique in early music or something?
> 
> But yeah, a lute or early guitar or something could have been cool.


pizz becomes a thing only after Beethoven's String Quartet 10 - (called the "Harp" quartet, as it was kind of weird at the time to be plucking your violin all the time like it's a harp or something).

Of course that was before quartet 10, and the world after quartet 10 has never been the same.


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## Casiquire (Sep 3, 2021)

ism said:


> pizz becomes a thing only after Beethoven's String Quartet 10 - (called the "Harp" quartet, as it was kind of weird at the time to be plucking your violin all the time like it's a harp or something).
> 
> Of course that was before quartet 10, and the world after quartet 10 has never been the same.


That's fascinating actually


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 3, 2021)

ism said:


> pizz becomes a thing only after Beethoven's String Quartet 10 - (called the "Harp" quartet, as it was kind of weird at the time to be plucking your violin all the time like it's a harp or something).
> 
> Of course that was before quartet 10, and the world after quartet 10 has never been the same.


Very cool, thank you!


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## ism (Sep 3, 2021)

And so before Beethoven no one would have ever wondered why a sample library didn't include piz.


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## micrologus (Sep 3, 2021)

The first use of pizzicato is in Monteverdi's _Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda_ (1624): "Qui si lascia l'arco et si strappano le corde con due ditti". Vivaldi used pizzicato, too: Concerto _L'inverno_ RV 297 (Largo).


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## Rudianos (Sep 3, 2021)

I am sure plenty of people throughout the entire history of the instrument plucked it, slapped it, and used it for bashing things. I've got a thousand of period plucking things. 249.99 for 14 extremely under represented instruments and a legendary IR with top tier mics stuck all around in every way. Thanks Orchestral Tools for a fabulous palette!


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## ism (Sep 3, 2021)

micrologus said:


> The first use of pizzicato is in Monteverdi's _Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda_ (1624): "Qui si lascia l'arco et si strappano le corde con due ditti". Vivaldi used pizzicato, too: Concerto _L'inverno_ RV 297 (Largo).



Yes, Beethoven certainly didn't invent piz, but it had been largely a special effect. The 'Harp' quartet, as I understand it, is what transformed piz. from an occasional effect into a mainstream articulation as we understanding it today.


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## [email protected] (Sep 3, 2021)

ism said:


> pizz becomes a thing only after Beethoven's String Quartet 10 - (called the "Harp" quartet, as it was kind of weird at the time to be plucking your violin all the time like it's a harp or something).


Actually in pre-classical music there are a lot of pieces where pizzicato is used heavily. This is my favourite!



The Baroque composers were very open for experiments and alternate techniques. Just check out Heinrich Biber's _Battaglia_ where he actually used "Bartók pizzicati§ to imitate canons and asks the double bass player to put paper sheets between the strings to imitate a snare drum during the march... a lot to explore here!



And Jean-Féry Rebel (1666~1747) already used clusters in his _Elements_.


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## ism (Sep 3, 2021)

[email protected] said:


> Actually in pre-classical music there are a lot of pieces where pizzicato is used heavily. This is my favourite!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those are very cool examples. 

I don't have the musicology to debate this on a historiographical level. But I'm referencing an academic who describes the transformative effect of Beethoven's Harp quartet. And again, the argument isn't that Beethoven invented piz, just that this is a watershed in the technique moving from a special effect, or perhaps something 'experimental', towards it becoming widely accepted as a 'core' or 'mainstream', or otherwise much more popular and widespread articulation. 


In any event, I stand my my assertion that before Beethoven, very few people would have even thought to questioned a sample library not coming with piz. as a standard articulation.


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 3, 2021)

Question for Miroire users...is it just me or are the trills in the violins/violas way quieter than the sustains/legatos/tremelos etc...

is this one purpose?

Also, any favorite mic combinations on instruments? I feel like the discussion on this one is way quieter than Tallin's drop


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## Ruffian Price (Sep 3, 2021)

They don't get as loud in the middle of the notes in the highest dynamic (probably since it's just one "mf" layer instead of p/f like the sustains have), but the attack seems around the same.


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 3, 2021)

Ruffian Price said:


> They don't get as loud in the middle of the notes in the highest dynamic (probably since it's just one "mf" layer instead of p/f like the sustains have), but the attack seems around the same.


Maybe I'm getting ear fatigue (possible) they just sound pretty different to me


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## Casiquire (Sep 3, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Maybe I'm getting ear fatigue (possible) they just sound pretty different to me


Sure sounds like a dip to me


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## heisenberg (Sep 3, 2021)

Great stuff [email protected] That third piece scared the crap out of me when started it playing.

The Boccherini piece reminds me that there are a number of well known pieces he did that have pizz in them. Thanks for sharing those works.


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## DSorah (Sep 4, 2021)

After taking a bit of time to compose a piece that historically would not have survived the Baroque era due to the outstanding and numerous musical contributions of the great composers, I have come up with small musical offering. Also includes Spitfire Timpani and Harpsichord.


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## Werty (Sep 4, 2021)

Sounds so realistic that even if a chimp puts random notes, something good will come out from this software!


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## philippebaylac (Sep 4, 2021)

ism said:


> pizz becomes a thing only after Beethoven's String Quartet 10 - (called the "Harp" quartet, as it was kind of weird at the time to be plucking your violin all the time like it's a harp or something).
> 
> Of course that was before quartet 10, and the world after quartet 10 has never been the same.


You find Pizz in Bach's music ...


Baronvonheadless said:


> Very cool, thank you!


You find pizz in baroque music, Bach of course and many other composers. Here is a beautiful example :


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## ism (Sep 4, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> You find Pizz in Bach's music ...
> 
> You find pizz in baroque music, Bach of course and many other composers. Here is a beautiful example :



More cool example - thanks!

I guess it's arguable that I've overstated (and/or overdramatized) the point. And I suspect the academic I was riffing off was himself rather invested in the broader "Beethoven Changes *Everything*" narrative. Yet while this calls a certain amount of historiographical caution - it doesn't mean he's wrong 

But it's certainly true that the nature of piz changes significantly in the 19th century, and I think Beethoven's quartet no. 10 legitimately stands as as a landmark in that shift towards our modern understanding of piz as a bread and butter articulation.

And I think that's worth dramatizing a bit. Especially interesting in the context of Miroire, which is by design playing on that tension of the Baroque and modern. Which is itself a really fun dynamic in the demos people have started sharing. 

And all these counter examples of pre-Beethoven piz. are also cool. In fact - keep them coming folks! Another thread to better tease out the evolution of piz. sounds like it might be fun.


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## CT (Sep 4, 2021)

Another bit of early pizzicato... an absolutely sublime bit, actually.


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## muziksculp (Sep 4, 2021)




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## gussunkri (Sep 5, 2021)

Now that people have had a chance to play with it, what are your thoughts? From the demos, the violins, basso continuo and the choirs seem like the standouts.


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## holywilly (Sep 5, 2021)

I only spent few hours exploring Miroire, my favorite patches are the Basso Continuo, choirs and all woodwinds. My projects are mainly contemporary or hybrid, I found this patches are super useful, especially the basso continuo, it makes my low end growls!


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## MartinH. (Sep 5, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> I keep thinking the download is baroquen.


Such an underappreciated pun! :D
Good luck getting it to work!


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## soulofsound (Sep 5, 2021)

Dan said:


> I downloaded Miroire today and immediately tried it on some Bach. The choir legatos are simply amazing in my opinion.



It totally rocks. Thanks for sharing.


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## Futchibon (Sep 5, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I only spent few hours exploring Miroire, my favorite patches are the Basso Continuo, choirs and all woodwinds. My projects are mainly contemporary or hybrid, I found this patches are super useful, especially the basso continuo, it makes my low end growls!


OT seem to have mastered sampling the low end - their low strings in MA1/2 are stellar. So far I only own the basso continuo and cant stop playing with it, it's awesome! Will pick up the choirs soon, they sound amazing.

Do you have a favourite woodwind?


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## Casiquire (Sep 5, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Such an underappreciated pun! :D
> Good luck getting it to work!


Underappreciated?! Scroll up and drink every time you see it 😂

Actually please don't, i can't have that on my conscience


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 5, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> OT seem to have mastered sampling the low end - their low strings in MA1/2 are stellar. So far I only own the basso continuo and cant stop playing with it, it's awesome! Will pick up the choirs soon, they sound amazing.
> 
> Do you have a favourite woodwind?


You should check out the cello and bass in Tallin, too. They’re pretty gnarly. In a great way.


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 5, 2021)

I feel like I saw somewhere someone from orchestral tools comment about their kontakt timpani coming to Sine soon. Does anyone know when possibly? Would be great to pick up the baroque mallets a la cart.
The only timpani I have are from abbey road and bbc spitfire and they work ok enough with the close/spill mics but still sound a bit off. Don’t quite match miroire.
Cinesamples cineharpsichord sounds great with miroire however! I was tempted to get OT’s harpsichord but cineharpsichord was on sale for $50…and a lot of ppl here sang it’s praise. Can’t beat that


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## MartinH. (Sep 6, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Underappreciated?! Scroll up and drink every time you see it 😂
> 
> Actually please don't, i can't have that on my conscience



My bad, I didn't read the full thread. Just a couple posts and was surprised no one reacted to it, but you've given me a good explanation why that was the case.




Baronvonheadless said:


> I feel like I saw somewhere someone from orchestral tools comment about their kontakt timpani coming to Sine soon. Does anyone know when possibly? Would be great to pick up the baroque mallets a la cart.
> The only timpani I have are from abbey road and bbc spitfire and they work ok enough with the close/spill mics but still sound a bit off. Don’t quite match miroire.
> Cinesamples cineharpsichord sounds great with miroire however! I was tempted to get OT’s harpsichord but cineharpsichord was on sale for $50…and a lot of ppl here sang it’s praise. Can’t beat that


If you have the NI SSC Percussions, check out the timpani in there. I thought they are pretty good.


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## Futchibon (Sep 6, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> You should check out the cello and bass in Tallin, too. They’re pretty gnarly. In a great way.


Thanks, I have the celli, will probs pick up the basses soon


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## zeng (Sep 6, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I only spent few hours exploring Miroire, my favorite patches are the Basso Continuo, choirs and all woodwinds. My projects are mainly contemporary or hybrid, I found this patches are super useful, especially the basso continuo, it makes my low end growls!


What about the violins and violas?


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 6, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> My bad, I didn't read the full thread. Just a couple posts and was surprised no one reacted to it, but you've given me a good explanation why that was the case.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have the NI SSC Percussions, check out the timpani in there. I thought they are pretty good.


I’m not sure what that is? I can’t find ssc in a google search. Is it part of komplete? I don’t have any ni stuff just free kontakt player.


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## MartinH. (Sep 6, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> I’m not sure what that is? I can’t find ssc in a google search. Is it part of komplete? I don’t have any ni stuff just free kontakt player.



Native Instruments Symphony Series Collection. I don't know what exact versions of Komplete it was included it, maybe only in the Collectors Edition. But it sounds like you don't have that. Here is a video:



Imho it is not worth getting just for the Timpani (or at full price in general).


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## VSriHarsha (Sep 6, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I only spent few hours exploring Miroire, my favorite patches are the Basso Continuo, choirs and all woodwinds. My projects are mainly contemporary or hybrid, I found this patches are super useful, especially the basso continuo, it makes my low end growls!


Does it have anything that’s in EW’s Silk or RA? Wow! They have Choirs. I don’t understand the myth behind updating the Sine. They should REALLY update & do sale pretty often.


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## Casiquire (Sep 6, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> My bad, I didn't read the full thread. Just a couple posts and was surprised no one reacted to it, but you've given me a good explanation why that was the case.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have the NI SSC Percussions, check out the timpani in there. I thought they are pretty good.


I'm not going to lie though, i still laugh every time!



VSriHarsha said:


> Does it have anything that’s in EW’s Silk or RA? Wow! They have Choirs. I don’t understand the myth behind updating the Sine. They should REALLY update & do sale pretty often.


They are very different libraries with no real overlap. Silk/Ra explore different cultures, but Miroire is baroque European


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## holywilly (Sep 6, 2021)

VSriHarsha said:


> Does it have anything that’s in EW’s Silk or RA? Wow! They have Choirs. I don’t understand the myth behind updating the Sine. They should REALLY update & do sale pretty often.


All my ssd’s are EW free.


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## philippebaylac (Sep 6, 2021)

zeng said:


> What about the violins and violas?


I just started to use MIROIRE. Here is the strings parts of Bach's Cantata BWV 62, with one horn and the soprano part. To be completed with 2 oboes and all the choir.


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## muziksculp (Sep 6, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> I just started to use MIROIRE. Here is the strings parts of Bach's Cantata BWV 62, with one horn and the soprano part. To be completed with 2 oboes and all the choir.



Hi @philippebaylac ,

Sounds Awesome ! 

Thanks for your amazing Baroque Emulations. (As usual). 

The Miroire Strings, and Solo Horn, sound fantastic.

What instrument did you use for the BC in this track ?

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## micrologus (Sep 6, 2021)

Philippe, le magicien de la musique baroque … bravo!


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## Casiquire (Sep 6, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> I just started to use MIROIRE. Here is the strings parts of Bach's Cantata BWV 62, with one horn and the soprano part. To be completed with 2 oboes and all the choir.



That's fantastic. This might be turning into an unexpected must-buy. It just nails the sound.

I do expect the brass to be a little more ambient but this seems like a rather large gap. Are you using the same mic mixes for the brass as for the strings?


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## muziksculp (Sep 6, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> This might be turning into an unexpected must-buy


 I'm curious how long you will be able to resist picking up Miroire.


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## Casiquire (Sep 6, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I'm curious how long you will be able to resist picking up Miroire.


Probably for a very long time, to be honest! I'm not an impulsive buyer and don't suffer from GAS much, and there are other more important gaps to fill in my collection. I may pick up a handful of individual instruments but i could easily see a year going by before i even start


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## muziksculp (Sep 6, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Probably for a very long time, to be honest! I'm not an impulsive buyer and don't suffer from GAS much, and there are other more important gaps to fill in my collection. I may pick up a handful of individual instruments but i could easily see a year going by before i even start


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## philippebaylac (Sep 6, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @philippebaylac ,
> 
> Sounds Awesome !
> 
> ...


I use the Continuo of Miroire only


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## philippebaylac (Sep 6, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> That's fantastic. This might be turning into an unexpected must-buy. It just nails the sound.
> 
> I do expect the brass to be a little more ambient but this seems like a rather large gap. Are you using the same mic mixes for the brass as for the strings?


No, it's slightly different, but when the horn at right blend with the sopranos at left, it makes a blur sound. I must make the horns more brassy


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## Dan (Sep 6, 2021)

After playing around with Bach I now tried to write something on my own with Miroire. 
It's very incoherent and basically just a test of different moods and styles to see how it would sound.




Percussion + harpsichord is from Fluffy Audio Rinascimento.
The timpani are from Spitfire BBCSO since I sadly don't own baroque timpani.
I used Gullfoss to brighten the choir quite a bit to give it a more aggressive sound.


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## muziksculp (Sep 6, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> I use the Continuo of Miroire only


Hi, and Thanks @philippebaylac .

I see, so you just turned OFF the Bassoon, and used the D.Bass, and Cello for the BC . I initially thought that you used a different library's Solo Strings for the BC.

I haven't installed Miroire yet, but will do so shortly.

Have you had a chance to test the solo woodwinds ? 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Futchibon (Sep 6, 2021)

Dan said:


> After playing around with Bach I now tried to write something on my own with Miroire.
> It's very incoherent and basically just a test of different moods and styles to see how it would sound.
> 
> 
> ...



Beautiful! If that's 'incoherent', I'd love to hear a 'coherent' piece from you  

How do you find Miroire compared to Rinascimento? I almost picked R up in the recent Fluffy sale but now it's gone back to full price it's on the backburner again. Do you have a favourite of the two?

Have been looking at Gulfoss too - are you using it much?


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## Dan (Sep 7, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> Beautiful! If that's 'incoherent', I'd love to hear a 'coherent' piece from you
> 
> How do you find Miroire compared to Rinascimento? I almost picked R up in the recent Fluffy sale but now it's gone back to full price it's on the backburner again. Do you have a favourite of the two?
> 
> Have been looking at Gulfoss too - are you using it much?


Thank you! I just meant it it switches rapidly between moods and stuff, so not really something that works all too well as a whole composition I think.

Rinascimento naturally has more of a renaissance vibe than a real baroque sound... I love Händel, Bach etc. so Miroire is more to my taste.

When it comes to playability, I find the legatos in Rinascimento are often not quite as smooth as those in Miroire, which are for the most part really well done.
So for example, the legatos of the various bowed Rinascimento instruments don't work very well for faster passages. Personally I love fast stuff and prefer more flexible instruments, so that's one more reason why I would prefer Miroire over Rinascimento. But it really is a matter of personal taste since the two libraries cover somewhat different styles and ages.

Rinascimento on its own of course has a very pleasant and often just gorgeous sound and a whole lot of instruments that all work beautifully together, so I would recommend it if you want to go for something earlier than baroque music. It does what it does quite well if the musical material is not too extreme. I especially like the lutes and percussion.


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## Petrucci (Sep 8, 2021)

This is some awesome release by OT, I think..! Is Sine player stable now? I've heard different stories about it, are there people here using it on Mac OS 10.13?


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## Gene Pool (Sep 8, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Would be great to pick up the baroque mallets a la cart.


If their labeling is correct then I think they just mean baroque mallets on modern timpani. Maybe someone who has the relevant timpani library can confirm.


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## Gene Pool (Sep 8, 2021)

Dan said:


> The choir legatos are simply amazing in my opinion.


Which dynamic layer is that? The melismas are great but a little subdued.


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## Dan (Sep 9, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Which dynamic layer is that? The melismas are great but a little subdued.


Loud dynamics only. CC1 is always in the upper half in this example. 

In general I find the choir not to be super loud or mighty but instead rather mellow sounding, that's why I brightened it up to bring out the harshness in the voices a bit more and give the impression of louder singing.


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## muziksculp (Sep 9, 2021)




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## philippebaylac (Sep 11, 2021)

Here is the finalized version of the overture to cantata BWV 62. I am not convinced by Miroire's choir. A lot of noise. Has anyone encountered the same problem? Not having much time to see how to fix this problem, I made this version with Dominus Pro.


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## Werty (Sep 11, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> Here is the finalized version of the overture to cantata BWV 62. I am not convinced by Miroire's choir. A lot of noise. Has anyone encountered the same problem? Not having much time to see how to fix this problem, I made this version with Dominus Pro.



pure perfection. The choir is good, maybe the attck of the note is too loud sometimes, but you can adjust that.


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## ism (Sep 11, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> Here is the finalized version of the overture to cantata BWV 62. I am not convinced by Miroire's choir. A lot of noise. Has anyone encountered the same problem? Not having much time to see how to fix this problem, I made this version with Dominus Pro.





Endemic limitations of samples aside, that really is extraordinary, and unimaginable with samples in a world before Miroire.


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## benwiggy (Sep 12, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> Here is the finalized version of the overture to cantata BWV 62. I am not convinced by Miroire's choir. A lot of noise. Has anyone encountered the same problem? Not having much time to see how to fix this problem, I made this version with Dominus Pro.


Hello. First time poster! I've recently bought the Miroire library, and I have mixed feelings about it. I'm trying to use it in Dorico notation software, which may be part of the problem, though it has basic DAW-like capabilities: automation lanes, piano roll and expression mapping.

I find Miroire to be much quieter than other sample libraries I have. I've had to turn up the Volume to +12 to get it to match! The attack is also very slow, making it sound late if used with other libraries. OT said _"We deliberately cut our sustains to preserve the full attack, not to the transient." _

I'm also disappointed about the lack of separate Cello and Bassoon. I agree there's a lot of noise in the choir, mostly in the syllables. The choir is also painfully late. OT says _"you might need to start them a bit early relative to the grid"_, which would be tedious to do all the time.

The documentation is a little sparse. I've no idea what the "Alternative Transition" CC does, for example.

I've tried to match your output of BWV 62, but got nowhere near it. There's much more clarity and 'space' in yours.
I see you've adjusted the default mic volumes. Any other alterations? I've tried messing with the envelopes to make the release shorter, but to no improvement.


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## Casiquire (Sep 12, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> Hello. First time poster! I've recently bought the Miroire library, and I have mixed feelings about it. I'm trying to use it in Dorico notation software, which may be part of the problem, though it has basic DAW-like capabilities: automation lanes, piano roll and expression mapping.
> 
> I find Miroire to be much quieter than other sample libraries I have. I've had to turn up the Volume to +12 to get it to match! The attack is also very slow, making it sound late if used with other libraries. OT said _"We deliberately cut our sustains to preserve the full attack, not to the transient." _
> 
> ...


I don't own the library so i can't be too specific, but i can help a little! OT tries to leave a natural balance and that means a lot of libraries have to be pretty quiet, particularly woodwinds. It's easy enough to just turn it up the DAW. 

Choirs with syllables are always hard to get to sound in time. I believe Miroire's choirs have an option to play back a consistent 120ms (or so). This is extremely helpful because then you can set a predelay or negative track delay on the track at -120ms and everything will sound perfectly in time. That's really a killer feature that all choirs should have


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## holywilly (Sep 12, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> Hello. First time poster! I've recently bought the Miroire library, and I have mixed feelings about it. I'm trying to use it in Dorico notation software, which may be part of the problem, though it has basic DAW-like capabilities: automation lanes, piano roll and expression mapping.
> 
> I find Miroire to be much quieter than other sample libraries I have. I've had to turn up the Volume to +12 to get it to match! The attack is also very slow, making it sound late if used with other libraries. OT said _"We deliberately cut our sustains to preserve the full attack, not to the transient." _
> 
> ...


Try enabling the spot mics, it boots clarity of instruments.


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## szczaw (Sep 12, 2021)

I'm not really going for baroque sound (as there are no longer baroque women to be found). I got the library for folkish sequencing experiments, in order to pick up some folk women.
View attachment Miroire2.mp3


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## benwiggy (Sep 13, 2021)

Thanks all.



Casiquire said:


> It's easy enough to just turn it up the DAW.
> 
> I believe Miroire's choirs have an option to play back a consistent 120ms (or so).



In Logic, I've had to have all the sliders up to the top to get the same level as anything else! Any idea where that choir option is?




holywilly said:


> Try enabling the spot mics, it boots clarity of instruments.


I downloaded the "basic kit", which is Tree and Spot AB. I think I've managed to improve the space by using the Roomworks VST instead of REVerence.

But I still find that the samples are out of time with each other! Unless I've done that by fiddling with the Envelopes inconsistently...

Other disappointments are the lack of muted samples. It does seem like they've made this not for people who are producing Baroque music, but for people who want a 'Baroque-y' sound in their film score. (Meow.)




szczaw said:


> I'm not really going for baroque sound (as there are no longer baroque women to be found).


Plenty of women on the Early Music scene. I married one!


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## VSriHarsha (Sep 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> All my ssd’s are EW free.


Lol! Cool!


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## holywilly (Sep 13, 2021)

VSriHarsha said:


> Lol! Cool!


Orchestral Tools really know how to sample good choirs.


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## Ruffian Price (Sep 13, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Choirs with syllables are always hard to get to sound in time. I believe Miroire's choirs have an option to play back a consistent 120ms (or so). This is extremely helpful because then you can set a predelay or negative track delay on the track at -120ms and everything will sound perfectly in time. That's really a killer feature that all choirs should have


Bafflingly, only one set of marcatos has this, so if you want to mix and match (and they all duplicate the same 19-syllable sequence, which is fantastic) there is still some hand-correcting involved


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## Casiquire (Sep 13, 2021)

Ruffian Price said:


> Bafflingly, only one set of marcatos has this, so if you want to mix and match (and they all duplicate the same 19-syllable sequence, which is fantastic) there is still some hand-correcting involved


An unfortunate oversight. I dream of a day when every library will just list a single delay number


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## jbuhler (Sep 13, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> An unfortunate oversight. I dream of a day when every library will just list a single delay number


Yes, I find it very strange that it’s not the norm for libraries to have a consistent delay across the articulations so you can just drop a negative delay on the track and be done with it. It really doesn’t seem like it should be that difficult, and you could make it an option if you wanted to retain responsiveness for playability.


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## Casiquire (Sep 13, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Yes, I find it very strange that it’s not the norm for libraries to have a consistent delay across the articulations so you can just drop a negative delay on the track and be done with it. It really doesn’t seem like it should be that difficult, and you could make it an option if you wanted to retain responsiveness for playability.


You could even still trim the samples wherever you want as a developer. The Spitfire excuse of hand-trimmed samples doesn't really..."cut it"...because you can just add enough silence before the transient to get all the samples consistent


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## jbuhler (Sep 13, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> You could even still trim the samples wherever you want as a developer. The Spitfire excuse of hand-trimmed samples doesn't really..."cut it"...because you can just add enough silence before the transient to get all the samples consistent


Agreed. And you can maintain backwards compatibility by not replacing the old patches but adding new ones with the consistent delay. (You’d probably want the old patches without delay for playing in any case.) I would think you could just script the delay so it wouldn’t even require touching the samples. And it seems straightforward to script so it’s hard to fathom the resistance to doing it.


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## Casiquire (Sep 13, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Agreed. And you can maintain backwards compatibility by not replacing the old patches but adding new ones with the consistent delay. (You’d probably want the old patches without delay for playing in any case.) I would think you could just script the delay so it wouldn’t even require touching the samples. And it seems straightforward to script so it’s hard to fathom the resistance to doing it.


Exactly, it could be scripted, so you wouldn't need any new samples at all and backwards compatibility isn't an issue. I think we're going in that direction at least. But dang that little delay can make a huge difference


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 13, 2021)

I'm honestly pretty surprised they haven't went back and updated Tallin's choir with this timed short feature. I wonder if they had to record the samples differently so there's no going back for Tallin? But that was one of the choirs biggest downfalls and section a lot struggled with. Weird times staccatos


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## jbuhler (Sep 13, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> I'm honestly pretty surprised they haven't went back and updated Tallin's choir with this timed short feature. I wonder if they had to record the samples differently so there's no going back for Tallin? But that was one of the choirs biggest downfalls and section a lot struggled with. Weird times staccatos


Yes, the syllables are almost unusable in Tallinn due to timing issues. It's hard to say what the difficulty is given that the syllables in Arks 1 and 2 work as expected.


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## philippebaylac (Sep 14, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> Hello. First time poster! I've recently bought the Miroire library, and I have mixed feelings about it. I'm trying to use it in Dorico notation software, which may be part of the problem, though it has basic DAW-like capabilities: automation lanes, piano roll and expression mapping.
> 
> I find Miroire to be much quieter than other sample libraries I have. I've had to turn up the Volume to +12 to get it to match! The attack is also very slow, making it sound late if used with other libraries. OT said _"We deliberately cut our sustains to preserve the full attack, not to the transient." _
> 
> ...


In my version of cantata BWX 62, I almost exclusively use short notes for the strings. the "ta-ta-ti" motif found in oboes and strings is stacatissimo- stacatissimo-stacatto, where you end with a longer note. Long notes are unfortunately not really controllable, which greatly limits the possibilities. The same goes for the "ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ti" patterns of the violins. The staccato being less loud than the staccatissimo, it may be necessary to accentuate the velocity of the note. For now, I'm desperately trying to get a decent sound out of the long notes, and all I can get is mush. It is quite frustrating. I managed to do better with the VSL, but we must admit that SINE is not VIPRO, far from it ... Could someone manage to make a listenable version of "vergnugte ruh", cantata BWV 170? I'll take it !I join my VSL version here :



I forgot to precise that i added a little of VSL Hybrid reverb.


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## benwiggy (Sep 14, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> In my version of cantata BWX 62, I almost exclusively use short notes for the strings. the "ta-ta-ti" motif found in oboes and strings is stacatissimo- stacatissimo-stacatto, where you end with a longer note. Long notes are unfortunately not really controllable, which greatly limits the possibilities. The same goes for the "ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ti" patterns of the violins. The staccato being less loud than the staccatissimo, it may be necessary to accentuate the velocity of the note. For now, I'm desperately trying to get a decent sound out of the long notes, and all I can get is mush. It is quite frustrating.


Yes, I noticed that you were using shorter notes than the written values at the very start. Another annoyance is that the Oboes have Staccatissimo articulations, but not Staccato. Again, OT say "This is deliberate".

Miroire is very good if you just want all sustains, or just all short notes, but once you start to mix them, it does get a bit messy. 

If you have a MusicXML or MIDI file of Cantata 170, I'll give it a go!


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## philippebaylac (Sep 14, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> Yes, I noticed that you were using shorter notes than the written values at the very start. Another annoyance is that the Oboes have Staccatissimo articulations, but not Staccato. Again, OT say "This is deliberate".
> 
> Miroire is very good if you just want all sustains, or just all short notes, but once you start to mix them, it does get a bit messy.
> 
> If you have a MusicXML or MIDI file of Cantata 170, I'll give it a go!


Here is the midi file


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## soulofsound (Sep 14, 2021)

Anyone care to comment whether Miroire handles ostinato well like here?


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## VSriHarsha (Sep 14, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Orchestral Tools really know how to sample good choirs.


Yea I have heard those. You meant Talinn, right? I kinda like them. The tone is rather different I would use for some kinda mythical score.


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## holywilly (Sep 15, 2021)

VSriHarsha said:


> Yea I have heard those. You meant Talinn, right? I kinda like them. The tone is rather different I would use for some kinda mythical score.


Choirs from Metropolis I, II, IV, Tallinn, Miroire are all great!


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## benwiggy (Sep 15, 2021)

I think I've had a breakthrough. To get any kind of accuracy from Miroire, I'm disabling the Release samples, and massively bringing in the envelope's release from 2.7 seconds to c. 300 ms. Then I stay away from their 'special' Legato patches, except for very slow passages.

It might be a bit crude, but it seems to give a more reliable and consistent result than anything else I've tried.


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## Dan (Sep 15, 2021)

soulofsound said:


> Anyone care to comment whether Miroire handles ostinato well like here?



Here are the violins playing some random ostinato line four times with different combinations: 

1. Portato + bowed legato
2. Portato + fingered legato
3. Marcato short + bowed legato
4. Marcato short + fingered legato


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## benwiggy (Sep 15, 2021)

Dan said:


> Here are the violins playing some random ostinato line four times with different combinations:
> 
> 1. Portato + bowed legato
> 2. Portato + fingered legato
> ...


The trouble comes when you want to mix short notes with long ones.


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## dhmusic (Sep 15, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> The trouble comes when you want to mix short notes with long ones.


Do you have an example phrase where this problem might come up?


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## hispaniconumen (Sep 15, 2021)

Not easy to use, its necesary to do little tricks...its a pity cellos and bass are together with basoon too...too bad...
View attachment INTRO.mp3


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## Werty (Sep 15, 2021)

hispaniconumen said:


> Not easy to use, its necesary to do little tricks...its a pity cellos and bass are together with basoon too...too bad...
> View attachment INTRO.mp3


yet it sounds mind blowing, we never heard such good thing before.


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## hispaniconumen (Sep 15, 2021)

Werty said:


> yet it sounds mind blowing, we never heard such good thing before.


Thanks!, its only time and tricks....its C.Ph.E.Bach...intro from one of his cello concerts....


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## Werty (Sep 15, 2021)

hispaniconumen said:


> Thanks!, its only time and tricks....its C.Ph.E.Bach...intro from one of his cello concerts....


I need to pinch myself to remind myself this software is real.


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## Dan (Sep 15, 2021)

hispaniconumen said:


> Not easy to use, its necesary to do little tricks...its a pity cellos and bass are together with basoon too...too bad...
> View attachment INTRO.mp3


This is incredible! I gave it a like after a few seconds and then retracted it after continuing to listen because I thought "this can't be miroire, it has to be something else". But it really is.... Outstanding!


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## hispaniconumen (Sep 15, 2021)

Dan said:


> This is incredible! I gave it a like after a few seconds and then retracted it after continuing to listen because I thought "this can't be miroire, it has to be something else". But it really is.... Outstanding!


Yes, the library has good vibe...can sound much better ,but as always need to work in details, i will do a Heandel Concerto Grosso working in deep to see how far its posible to imitate real thing...thanks.


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## Soundbed (Sep 15, 2021)

If you're recently joining this thread here are some cool user demos of Miroire from the previous five pages:



hispaniconumen said:


> View attachment INTRO.mp3





Dan said:


>






DSorah said:


> Also includes Spitfire Timpani and Harpsichord.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Dan said:


> a test of different moods and styles to see how it would sound.
> 
> Percussion + harpsichord is from Fluffy Audio Rinascimento.
> The timpani are from Spitfire BBCSO
> I used Gullfoss to brighten the choir quite a bit to give it a more aggressive sound.






philippebaylac said:


> Here is the strings parts of Bach's Cantata BWV 62, with one horn and the soprano part. To be completed with 2 oboes and all the choir.






philippebaylac said:


> Here is the finalized version of the overture to cantata BWV 62.






Dan said:


> Here are the violins playing some random ostinato line four times with different combinations:
> 
> 1. Portato + bowed legato
> 2. Portato + fingered legato
> ...


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## zeng (Sep 15, 2021)

Well I am buying at least the strings!  great demo...I also have tallinn which is very good at choirs.


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## philippebaylac (Sep 15, 2021)

hispaniconumen said:


> Not easy to use, its necesary to do little tricks...its a pity cellos and bass are together with basoon too...too bad...
> View attachment INTRO.mp3


I love this concerto of CPE. I did 7 years ago the flute version (WQ 166) with the VSL. Unfortunately, a massive short circuit in my computer's power supply simultaneously burned out 3 hard drives, destroying years of work in a cloud of smoke, including this unfinished concerto (basso continuo).I was initially planning to recreate it with MIROIRE, but anyway, no pizz, so ...


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## muziksculp (Sep 15, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> I love this concerto of CPE. I did 7 years ago the flute version (WQ 166) with the VSL. Unfortunately, a massive short circuit in my computer's power supply simultaneously burned out 3 hard drives, destroying years of work in a cloud of smoke, including this unfinished concerto (basso continuo).I was initially planning to recreate it with MIROIRE, but anyway, no pizz, so ...



Hi @philippebaylac ,

Awesome CPE Flute Concerto emulation. Thanks for sharing. 

Sorry to hear about the loss of your 3 drives with valuable work. That is such a bummer. 

Which Strings Library/s did you use for this CPE track ?


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## dhmusic (Sep 15, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> I was initially planning to recreate it with MIROIRE, but anyway, no pizz, so ...


What do baroque pizzicatos sound like?


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## philippebaylac (Sep 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @philippebaylac ,
> 
> Awesome CPE Flute Concerto emulation. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> ...


I used all the libraries available at the time with no vibrato articulations : Solo strings, Chamber strings and Dimension strings.


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## muziksculp (Sep 15, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> I used all the libraries available at the time with no vibrato articulations : Solo strings, Chamber strings and Dimension strings.


Thanks for the feedback.


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## philippebaylac (Sep 15, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> What do baroque pizzicatos sound like?


It's not a question of baroque or not, it's a question of strings : gut vs metal. The same kind of difference you can find beetwin nylon and metal for a guitar (softer and deeper sound). Listen to the post at the beginning of page 10 of this thread . In fine, it's a matter of sound consistency


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## dhmusic (Sep 15, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> It's not a question of baroque or not, it's a question of strings : gut vs metal. The same kind of difference you can find beetwin nylon and metal for a guitar (softer and deeper sound). Listen to the post at the beginning of page 10 of this thread . In fine, it's a matter of sound consistency


I promise I won't tell Hendrik Schwarzer if you use pizz from another library on the track


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## DSorah (Sep 15, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> If you're recently joining this thread here are some cool user demos of Miroire from the previous five pages:


Thank you for compiling these and including my demo. I have since revised it a bit and posted it to my SoundCloud. You can find the new edition here: https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/vNKt2Sm1CTnfJKg6A


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## Soundbed (Sep 15, 2021)

DSorah said:


> Thank you for compiling these and including my demo. I have since revised it a bit and posted it to my SoundCloud. You can find the new edition here: https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/vNKt2Sm1CTnfJKg6A


updated my post:






Orchestral Tools: Miroire


Orchestral Tools really know how to sample good choirs. Yea I have heard those. You meant Talinn, right? I kinda like them. The tone is rather different I would use for some kinda mythical score.




vi-control.net


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## Futchibon (Sep 15, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> I love this concerto of CPE. I did 7 years ago the flute version (WQ 166) with the VSL. Unfortunately, a massive short circuit in my computer's power supply simultaneously burned out 3 hard drives, destroying years of work in a cloud of smoke, including this unfinished concerto (basso continuo).I was initially planning to recreate it with MIROIRE, but anyway, no pizz, so ...



Thanks for sharing, I have a lot to look forward to exploring your soundcloud tracks!


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## Werty (Sep 16, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> I love this concerto of CPE. I did 7 years ago the flute version (WQ 166) with the VSL. Unfortunately, a massive short circuit in my computer's power supply simultaneously burned out 3 hard drives, destroying years of work in a cloud of smoke, including this unfinished concerto (basso continuo).I was initially planning to recreate it with MIROIRE, but anyway, no pizz, so ...



if you did it 7 yers go it still sounds great, remarkable old libraries, whatever you used.


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## dko22 (Sep 16, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> Hello. First time poster! I've recently bought the Miroire library, and I have mixed feelings about it. I'm trying to use it in Dorico notation software, which may be part of the problem, though it has basic DAW-like capabilities: automation lanes, piano roll and expression mapping.
> 
> I find Miroire to be much quieter than other sample libraries I have. I've had to turn up the Volume to +12 to get it to match! The attack is also very slow, making it sound late if used with other libraries. OT said _"We deliberately cut our sustains to preserve the full attack, not to the transient." _
> 
> ...


the sale finishes today and I haven't managed to persuade myself to take the plunge on the whole library although I've really enjoyed some of these demos here and yours is definitely coming along as well -- just a little punch still lacking perhaps.


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## benwiggy (Sep 17, 2021)

Here's what I've managed so far. This is in Dorico notation software: just using Bach's score, with Expression Mapping of the dynamics, note lengths and techniques e.g. legato. 

No manual adjustments, no mixing, panning, reverb, etc. 

The ending is a bit fierce, and the Basso legato needs more oomph.


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## Werty (Sep 17, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> Here's what I've managed so far. This is in Dorico notation software: just using Bach's score, with Expression Mapping of the dynamics, note lengths and techniques e.g. legato.
> 
> No manual adjustments, no mixing, panning, reverb, etc.
> 
> The ending is a bit fierce, and the Basso legato needs more oomph.


Guys, I'll be stuck here every day just for great demos that was terrific thank you!


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## philippebaylac (Sep 19, 2021)

New mockup performed with OT MIROIRE Strings, Berlin Harpsichord and the VSL recorders. The Miroire recorder is not bad, but definitively too noisy ans some "windy" notes. The VSL one is very good and easy to use... Enjoy !


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## benwiggy (Sep 20, 2021)

Yet another problem I've just discovered with Miroire: the Sustains don't loop. They only last for 5 seconds. 

Again, I queried this, and again the reply is that it is 'intentional' that you can't play long notes.

This could have been an amazing library, with just a few slight changes. Instead, it's 'quite good under limited circumstances'.


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 20, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> Yet another problem I've just discovered with Miroire: the Sustains don't loop. They only last for 5 seconds.
> 
> Again, I queried this, and again the reply is that it is 'intentional' that you can't play long notes.
> 
> This could have been an amazing library, with just a few slight changes. Instead, it's 'quite good under limited circumstances'.


I actually like this feature


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## muziksculp (Sep 20, 2021)




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## benwiggy (Sep 20, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> I actually like this feature


Why? For €400, I'd expect something that can do semibreves.


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 20, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> For €400, I'd expect something that can do semibreves.


Yes I suppose, I mean it is a lot of money although I got it on the pre-order price. Your point stands. I wonder, however, why they chose this? Were semibreves a common thing back in those days? 

I've not studied the baroque era, but from what I've heard it sort of seems to match the length of notes I've heard in pieces?


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## benwiggy (Sep 20, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> I've not studied the baroque era, but from what I've heard it sort of seems to match the length of notes I've heard in pieces?


There are plenty of long, sustained notes in Baroque music. Particularly in the Basso Continuo line. (I have a piece at hand with one tied note for 23 bars!) Lots of fugues have a 'pedal note' towards the end that can be held for several bars.

OT have said that when they did the recording, the players requested to play a set length, so they could play more musically, without having to worry about loop points.

Sounds like the tail wagging the dog!

Of course, as the name 'breve' implies, it was once a short note (in medieval music), and it gradually got longer and longer as notation got shorter and shorter.


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## benwiggy (Sep 22, 2021)

Here's some of the choir (which _can_ do long notes). There's a bit of phasing between the men's voices when on the same note, despite some panning. (I've added a little pipe organ accompaniment, too.)

The trouble with choirs is that you want to re-articulate repeated notes at the same pitch, but you want to phrase notes of a different pitch more smoothly.

Also a bit of a Bach Harpsichord Concerto. The strings are generally OK, (though again, some long notes are cut short) but they are late, compared to the percussive keyboard. TBH, the star is the the Harpsichord (50 pence to whoever guesses which library it's from).


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## hispaniconumen (Sep 27, 2021)

I was working a little more in the library..one update with harpsichord added, dinamics, tempo line and more layers of articulations..its comming real...


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 27, 2021)

hispaniconumen said:


> I was working a little more in the library..one update with harpsichord added, dinamics, tempo line and more layers of articulations..its comming real...



Awesome! In the very fast section around 32 seconds in are you using very fast spiccatos or tremolo at all to achieve that?


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## hispaniconumen (Sep 27, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Awesome! In the very fast section around 32 seconds in are you using very fast spiccatos or tremolo at all to achieve that?


Its all spiccatisimo, i layered another dry track only with 1 "spot micrphone" and also making acents each 2 notes....In general, One track per instruments all spiccatisimo drawing the dinamic of the notes with velocity and one extra track for each instruments, in these extra trak changing betwin portato+les, marcato short and marcato long....mixing that 3 tracks per instrument. in the bass sections was more complicated because its dificult to isolate bass and cellos, but playing with microphones its more or less posible...bass more ease to isolate in separate track....sorry for the paleolithic english....


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## Baronvonheadless (Sep 27, 2021)

hispaniconumen said:


> Its all spiccatisimo, i layered another dry track only with 1 "spot micrphone" and also making acents each 2 notes....In general, One track per instruments all spiccatisimo drawing the dinamic of the notes with velocity and one extra track for each instruments, in these extra trak changing betwin portato+les, marcato short and marcato long....mixing that 3 tracks per instrument. in the bass sections was more complicated because its dificult to isolate bass and cellos, but playing with microphones its more or less posible...bass more ease to isolate in separate track....sorry for the paleolithic english....


Nice work, it sounds great! That’s smart about adding an extra dry layer to give it faster agility/bite


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## muziksculp (Sep 27, 2021)

hispaniconumen said:


> I was working a little more in the library..one update with harpsichord added, dinamics, tempo line and more layers of articulations..its comming real...



Very well done.  

Thanks for sharing. 

Which Harpsichord did you use in this piece ?


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## hispaniconumen (Sep 27, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Very well done.
> 
> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Which Harpsichord did you use in this piece ?


thanks...its Berlin Harpsichord....same sound space, easy to mix....


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## muziksculp (Sep 27, 2021)

hispaniconumen said:


> thanks...its Berlin Harpsichord....same sound space, easy to mix....


That was my first guess, because it blended very nicely with Miroire Strings. 

But wanted to confirm with you. 

Thanks


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## Baronvonheadless (Oct 1, 2021)

Today’s work! (I wanted to use miroire in a non traditional way)

This is an experimental, textural piece that ends in an odd baroque hybrid score.


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## muziksculp (Oct 1, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Today’s work! (I wanted to use miroire in a non traditional way)
> 
> This is an experimental, textural piece that ends in an odd baroque hybrid score.



@Baronvonheadless 

Brilliant ! Thanks for sharing. 

I Love the textures you used in the video, they work so well with the imagery. Which are also very nicely done. The ending was a nice touch. Not very baroque I would say, but has a nice Baroque bounce to it.


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## Baronvonheadless (Oct 1, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @Baronvonheadless
> 
> Brilliant ! Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I Love the textures you used in the video, they work so well with the imagery. Which are also very nicely done. The ending was a nice touch. Not very baroque I would say, but has a nice Baroque bounce to it.


Thank you brother!! I suppose baroque in instrumentation only haha. I’ve never fully studied the genre really, so musically I don’t know the rules haha.


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## heisenberg (Oct 1, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @Baronvonheadless
> 
> Brilliant ! Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I Love the textures you used in the video, they work so well with the imagery. Which are also very nicely done. The ending was a nice touch. Not very baroque I would say, but has a nice Baroque bounce to it.


Agreed on all counts. Really well done BVH. Bravo!


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## Werty (Oct 2, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Today’s work! (I wanted to use miroire in a non traditional way)
> 
> This is an experimental, textural piece that ends in an odd baroque hybrid score.



hehe, nice ending, but those cheap toyish drums sounds ruin everything.


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## Baronvonheadless (Oct 2, 2021)

Werty said:


> hehe, nice ending, but those cheap toyish drums sounds ruin everything.


To each their own I suppose. They’re just hip hop style electronic drums. Thought it was more fitting than actual sampled drums or hammers, wanted it to feel different.


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## dhmusic (Oct 2, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> To each their own I suppose. They’re just hip hop style electronic drums. Thought it was more fitting than actual sampled drums or hammers, wanted it to feel different.


I think it sounds dope man. Sounds like the sort of thing Bradford Cox would do.


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## Baronvonheadless (Oct 2, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> I think it sounds dope man. Sounds like the sort of thing Bradford Cox would do.


Shit thanks man, I take that as a big compliment. It’s funny I’ve only been composing with midi for about a year now but for the past 14 years I’ve been writing and performing psychedelic rock music!

Btw speaking of Bradford have u heard the Deerhunter album that cate le bon and Tim Presley contributed to? Or are u familiar with white fence or Drinks? Great great music!


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## Werty (Oct 2, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> To each their own I suppose. They’re just hip hop style electronic drums. Thought it was more fitting than actual sampled drums or hammers, wanted it to feel different.


Yes, I know, that's why I don't like it, it's like replacing a snare drum with a frisbee, that's the same sound. As a drummer I wouldn't like to play with plastic.


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## Baronvonheadless (Oct 2, 2021)

Werty said:


> Yes, I know, that's why I don't like it, it's like replacing a snare drum with a frisbee, that's the same sound. As a drummer I wouldn't like to play with plastic.


Yea it’s exactly like replacing a snare drum with a frisbee.


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## Seizh Avel (Oct 28, 2021)

After a few weeks of use, although I still haven't used all the instruments (especially the vocals), I have to admit that I really like this library and its wonderful sounds.

Some limitations require you to make compromise or use tricks to obtain the desired renderings. (limited number of articulations, sustains which do not always last long enough, ornamentations which are difficult to integrate into a piece, ...) but the whole Library is coherent and allows to give a « baroque » tone to the pieces

Here are some tests (that still need a few work)

Miroire (Violins, Oboe, Altos, Oboe da Caccia, Basso Continuo), Berlin Harpsichord, Berlin Percussion



Miroire (Violins 1 & 2, Oboe 1 & 2, Alto, Oboe da Caccia, Basso Continuo), Pipe Organ (Organteq)


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## Baronvonheadless (Oct 29, 2021)

Dove back into Miroire after taking a break. Used mainly Miroire throughout this rescore (80%, like 20 tracks), except a bit of vista and solo of the sea B, as well as a bit of Junkie xl at the end and some MNTRA patches for vibe.


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## benwiggy (Oct 31, 2021)

Seizh Avel said:


> Here are some tests (that still need a few work)


That's really lovely. Can I ask how you made this? Do you manually add all the key switch changes and CC data to an existing MIDI file of the music? Or are there shortcuts or automatic processes?


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## Seizh Avel (Oct 31, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> That's really lovely. Can I ask how you made this? Do you manually add all the key switch changes and CC data to an existing MIDI file of the music? Or are there shortcuts or automatic processes?


Thank you. I'm afraid I'm a bit old school... I record on the piano, or reuse old midi recordings or files made a few years ago, I apply the articulations managed by my DAW (I created the articulation tables for Orchestral Tools libraries), and I tune the velocities and the CCs manually, either with the mouse or with midi controllers.


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## benwiggy (Oct 31, 2021)

I use Dorico (notation software), where you can configure an Expression Map, defining which KSes and CCs are triggered by each notation element - note lengths, slurs, accent markings, beats of the bar, dynamics, trills etc).

Once you've set up the map for the sample library, then 'the music plays itself'. You can draw additional CC automation tracks for more detail.

So it's not as much work, but not as good. You can export the MIDI, with all the CCs and KSes in, for refining in a DAW.


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## Seizh Avel (Nov 15, 2021)

OK, yes I love the sounds of this library... here are two last quick examples before doing something else. Using the flute in slow and fast pieces.

Miroire (Flute, Violins 1 & 2, Altos, Basso Continuo), Berlin Harpsichord


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## tim727 (Nov 18, 2021)

I'm strongly considering purchasing the Miroire choirs but can someone just please confirm that they sound good paired with the Arks? For further context I don't plan to be using these choirs for faithful baroque music per se, but rather for the type of orchestral music generally found in the Ark demos (especially Ark 2). 

I imagine they would pair well but just about all the demos in the thread seemed to be almost exclusively Miroire (except for perc/harpsichord) so I figured I should ask. Thanks!


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## dhmusic (Nov 18, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I'm strongly considering purchasing the Miroire choirs but can someone just please confirm that they sound good paired with the Arks? For further context I don't plan to be using these choirs for faithful baroque music per se, but rather for the type of orchestral music generally found in the Ark demos (especially Ark 2).
> 
> I imagine they would pair well but just about all the demos in the thread seemed to be almost exclusively Miroire (except for perc/harpsichord) so I figured I should ask. Thanks!


They sound really good together but you do have to be mindful of some of the syllables in Miroire conflicting since it's meant to be more idiomatic. There are many more syllables/RRs in Miroire so you can turn a few off and it will still take a while for it to cycle back around. 

It broadens the Teldex choir palette immensely.


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## tim727 (Nov 18, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> They sound really good together but you do have to be mindful of some of the syllables in Miroire conflicting since it's meant to be more idiomatic. There are many more syllables/RRs in Miroire so you can turn a few off and it will still take a while for it to cycle back around.
> 
> It broadens the Teldex choir palette immensely.


That sounds convincing enough for me. Thank you! I'll purchase tomorrow.


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## Getsumen (Nov 18, 2021)

tim727 said:


> That sounds convincing enough for me. Thank you! I'll purchase tomorrow.


Because every GAS advice post needs balance, I'm here to taper down that excitement a little. The legatos were recorded in a certain way (I forget the exact musical style, it's mentioned in the walkthroughs) so it may sound a little different compared to what you normally expect. Give them a listen (Either through the walkthrough or the individual instrument demos on the site) and consider if that impacts your decision.


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## dhmusic (Nov 18, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Because every GAS advice post needs balance, I'm here to taper down that excitement a little. The legatos were recorded in a certain way (I forget the exact musical style, it's mentioned in the walkthroughs) so it may sound a little different compared to what you normally expect. Give them a listen (Either through the walkthrough or the individual instrument demos on the site) and consider if that impacts your decision.


The main difference is Ark II peaks at mf on an "ooh" syllable while Miroire goes to f with an "ooh" on the lower layer and a vibrato "ah" on the highest. Not sure what the style for the legato is but I really like it.


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## tim727 (Nov 19, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Because every GAS advice post needs balance, I'm here to taper down that excitement a little. The legatos were recorded in a certain way (I forget the exact musical style, it's mentioned in the walkthroughs) so it may sound a little different compared to what you normally expect. Give them a listen (Either through the walkthrough or the individual instrument demos on the site) and consider if that impacts your decision.


Yes I know what you're referring to. It's definitely distinct, but personally I find the Miroire choirs to be incredibly beautiful. My question wasn't about whether or not the choirs sound nice but rather whether they would go well with the Arks (the libraries as a whole, not just their choirs). Thank you for your input though. My GAS typically knows no bounds so I always welcome something to settle it down a bit


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## Ruffian Price (Nov 19, 2021)

Also, only the short marcatos have a time aligned version, the others can get wildly out of sync between syllables and it's not fun trying to move notes around with so many RRs in the default queue (and once you start disabling specific syllables you'll notice it doesn't change the sequence like you expected, there's some logic to it but it's usually trial and error for me). Still, there being so many RRs at all might be a selling point in itself. Really like how connected lines done with the long syllables sound and there's enough of them to construct a whole "verse".


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## philippebaylac (Dec 19, 2021)

philippebaylac said:


> I just started to use MIROIRE. Here is the strings parts of Bach's Cantata BWV 62, with one horn and the soprano part. To be completed with 2 oboes and all the choir.



Hi, i have made some work on this piece to denoise, rebalance and repan the whole thing. Here is the version without choir. I will add the miroire choir later.


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## muziksculp (Dec 19, 2021)

@philippebaylac ,

Thanks for sharing this new version.

It Sound Wonderful  

What are you using for the BC in this version ? 

Did you really feel you needed to renoise it, would it have been ok without renoising ? what about the re-panning, can you elaborate on these details ? 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## tim727 (Jan 3, 2022)

Has anyone noticed that for the tremolo patch, on the lowest D and the lowest E flat the cello on the right only starts up like a second after the one on the left? It makes it problematic to use the tremolo down at those lowest registers.


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## Rudianos (Jan 3, 2022)

tim727 said:


> Has anyone noticed that for the tremolo patch, on the lowest D and the lowest E flat the cello on the right only starts up like a second after the one on the left? It makes it problematic to use the tremolo down at those lowest registers.


interesting yes I hear that. It starts on time with my close listening, but the arc of crescendo is different than the others... and the other notes


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## philippebaylac (May 15, 2022)

Another Bach with Miroire, Berlin harpsichord and VSL recorders. Enjoy !


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## GeorgeThatMusicGuy (May 15, 2022)

Amazing


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## philippebaylac (Oct 10, 2022)

Hi everybody,
Another small one, from vivaldi. Baroque rocks !


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## benwiggy (Oct 11, 2022)

I'd love to know how you do this. What software are you using? Does it require lots of manual adjustments? I've pretty much given up on Miroire (and everything I've purchased from OT....)


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