# Hearing harmonics



## jensos (May 19, 2014)

So I'm in the middle of my first significant attempt at ear training (using Ron Gorow's book, which I absolutely love - Thanks for the recommendation in an earlier thread!). I think I have understood the theory of the harmonic series pretty well. But what is frustrating me slightly is that I can't seem to really hear overtones, not even in a long held note of an acoustic instrument, played at a sufficiently low pitch. - At least not consciously.

A while back, in a Thinkspace video they had a string ensemble hold a note, and the question was "You can really hear the major third in there, can't you?". Well, my answer would have been No...
So my question is, is there a way to train this kind of perception? 

I am thinking of buying Samplemodelling's Trombone also for that reason, as it seems to have a built-in amplifier for individual harmonics (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcW2hrPZQpg). Any comments or additional suggestions on how to sharpen one's ear for overtones could help me greatly.

Thanks and best regards,
Jens
--


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## Hannes_F (May 19, 2014)

It is not easy or usual to hear harmonics as being disctinct from the root note. They are much more a color.

This is a video that might help to understand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q52BDqZLf3M

First you hear the note as recorded. Then the harmonics are extracted one by one and played back in isolation. At the end you hear the compound note again.

Side thought: note how weak the actual root note is in comparision to many of the harmonics - barely audible. This is because the violin body is actually shorter than the wavelength of that note and this is quite characteristical for strings, especially for the Cello.

What you heard in that ensemble video was probably something else: If two or more notes are played as an interval (or intervals) then there occur additional notes that are called sum or difference notes. Sometimes they are quite distinct, often not. But this is just a guess in order to explain what it could be that they were talking about. Hope that helps.


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## Bohrium (May 19, 2014)

jensos @ Mon May 19 said:


> A while back, in a Thinkspace video they had a string ensemble hold a note, and the question was "You can really hear the major third in there, can't you?". Well, my answer would have been No...
> So my question is, is there a way to train this kind of perception?



I'm pretty sure you would have noticed the 'minor third'.
It would have been a minor chord and that changes the sound dramatically.


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## Rob (May 19, 2014)

Bohrium @ 19th May 2014 said:


> jensos @ Mon May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > A while back, in a Thinkspace video they had a string ensemble hold a note, and the question was "You can really hear the major third in there, can't you?". Well, my answer would have been No...
> ...



not sure I understand this... the minor third isn't included in the harmonic series, at least not in the first 16 harmonics...


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## AlexandreSafi (May 19, 2014)

I approve Hannes's wonderful explanation...

Hearing harmonics is, at least to me, definitely the sort of thing you should come to appreciate over time, with training -- in harmonic, polyphonic, orchestral works especially...
That's how the brain works, no shortcuts, it always needs to build on top of the past. That's how you get to the level of effortless subconscious perceptual complexity...

The element of harmonics is a fascinating concept when it comes to ear training, relating to sounds in you and around you..
You can train yourself in hearing any sounds in nature, a car, its engine or its whooshing sound as it drives on a wet road, the subtle details of/in "it"...
Don't forget your own voice (vocal c(h?)ords!), "the 1st violin ever created..."
...And that's precisely there you can also realize, unless i'm totally mistaken, how much relevant this skill is, in today's world, as a basis for the kind of detailed sound design you can get to with synths such as Zebra... 

All sounds are beautifully musical and complex in their own apparent simplicity, as Hannes's video shows...
Don't be too hard on yourself, because it will come to you much more easily in the future, trust me...

For drumming in purposes, let me give you these--- 
a two-part 1973's explanation of the man himself, Leonard Bernstein (from "The Unanswered Question" Harvard lectures"):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n3qMB6AD_0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDTj6tBnHlA

& 

that simple technique "thing" everybody knows about that you can do with your voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGbFB91eM34

All the best!

Alexandre


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## jensos (May 19, 2014)

Rob @ Mon May 19 said:


> Bohrium @ 19th May 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > jensos @ Mon May 19 said:
> ...


 
Maybe I wasn't precise enough in what I described. In that one particular demonstration, the string group was playing one note in unison (not a chord), and the claim was that the interval of a major 3rd (between the 4th and 5th harmonic) was audible. If this is the case, I'd love to be able to hear it myself.

Btw, a church bell seems to be all different (with its missing fundamental etc.) In that sound I can hear all kinds of things ...

I'm interested in this subject out of more than just academic interest. It seems to be quite relevant for composition and orchestration. Being conscious of component tones that exist "in the background" must be very helpful. To illustrate, here is an article from popular literature that deals with this: http://io9.com/5883406/the-physics-behi ... heme-songs

Hannes, thank you very much for your reply. Were those harmonics played or somehow extracted?


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## Rob (May 19, 2014)

you can also experiment with an eq, like here:

www.robertosoggetti.com/CelloSectionHarmonics.avi

notice that the first harmonics outline a major chord, followed by the minor seventh and than the ninth, raised fourth and major seventh appear then it gets very chromatic...


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## Bohrium (May 19, 2014)

jensos @ Mon May 19 said:


> Rob @ Mon May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Bohrium @ 19th May 2014 said:
> ...



OK, I misunderstood.
I haven't seen that particular video. I just thought the question would have been about a chord.

Sorry for the noise ...


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## chibear (May 19, 2014)

> What you heard in that ensemble video was probably something else: If two or more notes are played as an interval (or intervals) then there occur additional notes that are called sum or difference notes. Sometimes they are quite distinct, often not. But this is just a guess in order to explain what it could be that they were talking about.


+1
From my experience in performances, the the resultant harmonics you are speaking of occur only on VERY rare occasions where intonation and balance are absolutely perfect. It takes no ear training to hear it, It is there and you can feel it in your instrument too...one of those 'OH WOW' moments you practiced for years to experience. This will not carry much farther from the stage unless the hall is also sympathetic to that resonance (which to say is almost never).

I really doubt you will be able to duplicate this using samples, and adjusting individual harmonics as referenced in your comment about SM's trombone would make my head explode. TMI.


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## Rob (May 19, 2014)

I guess the OP was simply asking for a way of being able to hear the harmonic series that is in every sound, samples included... I can hear them pretty well in every sampled instrument, unless it's a pure sine wave... they are just multiples of the fundamental frequency... or am I misunderstanding the original question?
Have you seen the little video I posted, Jens?


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## Bohrium (May 19, 2014)

Rob @ Mon May 19 said:


> not sure I understand this... the minor third isn't included in the harmonic series, at least not in the first 16 harmonics...



Sorry to hijack this, but isn't it the 6th? 
Even though that wasn't the question ... just trying to make sense of Robs answer.


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## Rob (May 19, 2014)

Bohrium @ 19th May 2014 said:


> Rob @ Mon May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > not sure I understand this... the minor third isn't included in the harmonic series, at least not in the first 16 harmonics...
> ...



no, the series is: root, octave, fifth, octave, major third, fifth, minor 7th, octave, ninth, major third, augmented fourth, fifth, minor 6th, minor 7th, major 7th, octave etc.


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## Patrick de Caumette (May 19, 2014)

to train your ear to hear the major third, or other overtones, try this:
go to an acoustic piano, press down the third of any low pitch, located two octaves + a third above the low pitch (where the third partial is located in the overtone series) while you are pressing down on that third, make sure the piano's left pedal is pressed down. wait until that third is no longer vibrating, and while the left pedal is still pressed and you are still pressing down on the third's key, briefly hit your low root and release the root's key, not the third.
The root tone should fade away quickly, but the third should remain, so that you can practice hearing it.
You can apply the same trick to other overtones also...

ps: this doesn't work using samples :mrgreen:


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## Hannes_F (May 19, 2014)

jensos @ Mon May 19 said:


> Hannes, thank you very much for your reply. Were those harmonics played or somehow extracted?



They were extracted one by one.

BTW the respective volumes were not adjusted, so what you hear is the original loudness of the overtones contained in that violin note.


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## Rob (May 19, 2014)

Patrick de Caumette @ 19th May 2014 said:


> to train your ear to hear the major third, or other overtones, try this:
> go to an acoustic piano, press down the third of any low pitch, located two octaves + a third above the low pitch (where the third partial is located in the overtone series) while you are pressing down on that third, make sure the piano's left pedal is pressed down. wait until that third is no longer vibrating, and while the left pedal is still pressed and you are still pressing down on the third's key, briefly hit your low root and release the root's key, not the third.
> The root tone should fade away quickly, but the third should remain, so that you can practice hearing it.
> You can apply the same trick to other overtones also...
> ...



right, and it also works the other way around, quickly play and release the third, while keeping the root depressed, you'll hear the major third, ringing inside the root's sound


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## Rob (May 19, 2014)

jensos @ 19th May 2014 said:


> ...and the claim was that the interval of a major 3rd (between the 4th and 5th harmonic) was audible. If this is the case, I'd love to be able to hear it myself.
> 
> ...



Jens, I think you might have misunderstood what they were saying... they probably meant: "can you hear the major third of the fundamental tone (2 octaves above) hidden in the sound?" Say they were playing an "A", you'd be able to hear a high "C#". And that isn't the distance between the 4th and 5th harmonic... the major third IS the 5th harmonic...


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## clarkus (May 19, 2014)

I understand the question, and there are already several good "answers," even though the question is asking for a strategy, really, and not an answer.

What I'm surprised at is that no one has mentioned a sine wave, which has no harmonics. 

If you listen to a sine wave (and most any synth, analog or digital, should be able to generate one for you) you will hear what a note sounds like if has no upper partials, i.e. harmonics.

I can guarantee you will hear the ABSENCE of harmonics. It's a quite distinctive - and naked - sound.

The sound of any OTHER instrument (violin, harmonica, banjo, electric guitar, tuba ...) is made distinctive by a combination of the unique array of harmonics that it sprays out when it is played, and one other equally important factor, which is its attack.

If you take the attack away from the note on an acoustic piano, people can be easily fooled & will think they are hearing a violin. Just to illustrate this last point. 

None of this makes you - or me - any better at hearing the upper partials. The more remote ones (like the major 7) are so faint that I'm not sure anyone picks them out other than as the generalized quality of the sound, meaning if they were not there the instrument would not sound the same.

Sorry for the long response, but this is a really interesting topic, and I wanted to also say that there's been a whole movement in the last generation of classical composers & this is the group of composers who call themselves "Spectral" composers. This is their special interest. They have been known to use (and not infrequently) oscilloscopes to understand in detail what an assemblage of intervals and instruments is generating in the air, and they will then bring out those harmonics in the composition as they proceed. Not all this music is marvelous, but its marvelously colorful. And it's worth pointing out that they clearly have the same issue that you do: they can't hear everything that;s going on: if they could they wouldn't need the technology.

Here's a device that someone makes that does what an oscilloscope does, but will give you a visual representation of harmonics. Pretty cool. I don;t own it, but now I want one ...

http://www.creativeapplications.net/pro ... l-harmony/


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## Rob (May 19, 2014)

Rob @ 19th May 2014 said:


> I guess the OP was simply asking for a way of being able to hear the harmonic series that is in every sound, samples included... I can hear them pretty well in every sampled instrument, *unless it's a pure sine wave*... they are just multiples of the fundamental frequency... or am I misunderstanding the original question?
> Have you seen the little video I posted, Jens?



:D


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## clarkus (May 19, 2014)

Well, I listened to it, and it's very useful. What a great sonic illustration!

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/CelloSec ... monics.avi

From where I stand this is a profound topic, not a simple one, though the question originally asked may be simple ("How can I get better at hearing theses intervals")

Start by asking if anyone can pick out the last set of harmonics that sound in Robert's audio file. They are hard to even pick out on the recording, despite being brought out in the performance. So there an aspect to timbre that we'd have to say is almost subliminal. It's not that that part of the sound doesn't matter. But it brings up some interesting questions about sensitivity to sound, and how complex sound really is.

Then consider that each note that sounds in "the real world" generates its own harmonics. So if you play (for example) C and any other note - or two notes, or three - on the piano, you are hearing not only what's generated by C but also what's generated by the additional tones in the chord. There is a multiplication of complexity. This is part of what has made it so difficult over the years to make a digital recreation of a piano sound as rich as its acoustic brother.


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## jensos (May 19, 2014)

Dear Rob and anyone else who replied,

Thank you so much for your comments!! I just checked out the video with the cello section harmonics (by Rob). This is really close to what I'm looking for: a good impression what the upper harmonics of a naturally produced tone sound like, so as to experience what to listen for.

Also, the Bernstein lectures are great. Episode 2 of those mentioned above also shows the trick with the resonating "open" strings on an acoustic piano (which I just tried). So thank you for this information, as well!!

Unfortunately I cannot provide a link to the Thinkspace video because it's part of the Cinematic Orchestration course, which is not free. In there, one can watch orchestrator Nic Raine work on a string arrangement, and he repeatedly makes reference to certain harmonics being present at specific point in a piece of music. From that he concludes that therefore certain voices having that pitch may not need to be played by any section.

I also find the topic fascinating and will continue exploring it - even though my original effort was mainly targeted at improving relative pitch. 

Again, thank you everyone!!

Best,
Jens


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## jensos (May 19, 2014)

Rob @ Mon May 19 said:


> jensos @ 19th May 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > ...and the claim was that the interval of a major 3rd (between the 4th and 5th harmonic) was audible. If this is the case, I'd love to be able to hear it myself.
> ...



Yes Rob, you're right. Bad wording on my part. Again


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## Patrick de Caumette (May 19, 2014)

jensos @ Mon May 19 said:


> I also find the topic fascinating and will continue exploring it - even though my original effort was mainly targeted at improving relative pitch.
> 
> Again, thank you everyone!!
> 
> ...



It is a fascinating topic!
And a key to the understanding of a balanced orchestration, from a traditional perspective. Apply those principles of spacing voices within your work and your a step closer to well balanced orchestration.
More space in the lower part of the orchestra and more and more opportunities for dissonance at the top! 

Of course, rules are made to be broken, but still, the OT series has the secret of the universe within it!


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## clarkus (May 19, 2014)

Just a quick sidebar: 2 related matters.

When I took Stephen Scott Smalley's weekend seminar, he pointed out that you can write tightly packed notes for trombones in the lower register that would sound like mud if done with other inst's. It has to do (or so he says, and I believe him) with the harmonics they produce. That doesn't mean you have to write tightly for bones @ the bottom. It just means you can, and people do, and it's a good trick, a special sound.

Secondly, in more chromatic music (translation: "Modern" music, not strictly triadic) the tight intervals are often placed in the middle, and in the low middle, even low. Those sonorities work because of the harmonics they generate, which can be quite beautiful, strange or both.

Stravinsky. Bartok. Ligeti. Copland.


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