# Trailer composers, what do you think about this?



## germancomponist (Jan 8, 2014)

I think it was a very cool idea to use only drums and percussion here:


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## rJames (Jan 8, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*

Good to know VICE is spreading around the world.

Not a trailer, percussion only in trailers is not new.


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## germancomponist (Jan 8, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*



rJames @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> Good to know VICE is spreading around the world.
> 
> Not a trailer, percussion only in trailers is not new.



Yes, it is very good to know that VICE is spreading around the world.

And yes, percussion only in trailers is not new, but to my taste it works so perfect here.


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## rJames (Jan 8, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*

Ah, I see.


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 8, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*



germancomponist @ Wed Jan 08 said:


> And yes, percussion only in trailers is not new, but to my taste it works so perfect here.



For me I think it does not work at all, it totally sucks and has no connection to the picture (well yes to the cuts in the first half, but in the later half it is just completely off).

De gustibus non est disputandum.


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## germancomponist (Jan 8, 2014)

Smile. A good example for how we think/feel different.... .


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 8, 2014)

Yes.


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## SyMTiK (Jan 8, 2014)

i only liked the percussion thing for the first few moments of the video, after a while it got boring and felt empty. i was constantly waiting for it to go somewhere, particularly at 20 seconds. they put in this rest to build tension as the man speaking tells us something important, yet it goes back into just the drums, which i felt kind of contradicts the fact that he says "i want to show you something" which pretty much cues up the music to come back in with something else, like i felt perhaps a simple guitar and bass part possibly couldve worked well. just my opinion though  i do see the idea that the composer was going for something unobtrusive that doesnt get in the way of what is going on in the video, as a video like this only really needs music to fill some of the space and doesnt need anything over the top. i still feel something simple couldve been added to improve the background music, just to follow the flow of the video.


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 8, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*

Vice = American Apparel + NYT Sunday edition
Billion Dollar Click bait. 

The music worked I guess. I hope they paid the guy.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 8, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*

Don't like it. It starts off ok, but when the change happens at :25, the drums distract from the dial. Which is never good.

And I agree that there is no connection to the picture. 

Cheers.


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## germancomponist (Jan 8, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*



RiffWraith @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> And I agree that there is no connection to the picture.



As in 80% of all that "epic" trailers?


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## RiffWraith (Jan 8, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*



germancomponist @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> RiffWraith @ Thu Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > And I agree that there is no connection to the picture.
> ...



No, Gunther - not 80% of all "epic" trailers. :roll: 

More like 85% :lol:


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## Ed (Jan 8, 2014)

Didnt really do it for me.,... and the production sounded cheap to my ears.

Im all for different approaches to trailers though. If you think 80% of trailers have music that have no connection to the picture Im confused as to why you think this does. Seems like quite an inconsistent way of seeing things to me.

What do you think of this trailer for True Grit? The beginining of the Vice video reminded me of the back end "God's Gonna Cut You Down" 's beat (they made a customised original remix if you notice)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GkAH7IUWOE

Or, if you want mostly percussion (WELL PRODUCED), there's No Country For Old Men:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnwNuG1ayno


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## rJames (Jan 8, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*

Oh, Ed. I thought you were gonna post this one. (I was hoping)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOohAwZOSGo

My cue "Stomping Behemoth," is from 2:09 to 2:20. I think this was the first trailer for the movie.


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## Ed (Jan 8, 2014)

Thats great! :D

Don't feel bad though. I posted the other one because of the frequency of percussion/sound design throughout


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## jleckie (Jan 8, 2014)

'Cheap' or 'inexpensive' . Better to be clear on that one.


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## gsilbers (Jan 8, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*

nor good or bad... it just works.


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## jleckie (Jan 8, 2014)

I have to agree.


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## Lex (Jan 8, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*

First of all this isn't a trailer, which makes the whole topic weird.

alex


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## jleckie (Jan 8, 2014)

Just lose the last word 'trailer' componista and your golden.


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## germancomponist (Jan 9, 2014)

Ed @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> Didnt really do it for me.,... and the production sounded cheap to my ears.
> 
> Im all for different approaches to trailers though. If you think 80% of trailers have music that have no connection to the picture Im confused as to why you think this does. Seems like quite an inconsistent way of seeing things to me.
> 
> ...



Your links....: Complete different stories... .
And to the 80%, look, there is a smiley..... . 

The most important thing is that the message is well conveyed. And the boys have done very well, I think. 

Not everything must sound bombastic?! o/~ o=<


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## germancomponist (Jan 9, 2014)

jleckie @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> Just lose the last word 'trailer' componista and your golden.



Ha ha, great idea. I will do this.


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## blougui (Jan 9, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*



germancomponist @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> RiffWraith @ Thu Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > And I agree that there is no connection to the picture.
> ...



Ah ah !
Exactly 

But I don't find it epic here. Wich is not something bad.


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## blougui (Jan 9, 2014)

Ed @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> Or, if you want mostly percussion (WELL PRODUCED), there's No Country For Old Men:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnwNuG1ayno



First bars sound like Cliff Martinez - can't remember wich one right now.


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## Markus S (Jan 9, 2014)

Don't think it's a good choice either to use this music here. Simply for the reason that percussion and voice fight in the same space. The guy is hammering how great his company is, and the percussions are hammering behind it. Your constantly drawn from one to the other.


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## MacQ (Jan 9, 2014)

Ed @ Wed Jan 08 said:


> Or, if you want mostly percussion (WELL PRODUCED), there's No Country For Old Men:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnwNuG1ayno



Cool trailer ... for a film almost completely devoid of music! False advertising! Haha.


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## Alex Cuervo (Jan 9, 2014)

I think it works. It may not be the sexiest production (although I think it sounds fine). I think a lot of you over think things when it comes to "functional music". It propels you forward while the guy is speaking on top of it & that's all it really needs to do. Clearly it's licensed/needle drop and not written to picture. Who would hire someone to write custom music for this kind of promo?

All that aside - I'm so pumped for a Vice news channel. What started out as a party scenester fashion & self-appointed taste-making entity has grown over the years into something really cool & smart & I applaud their new endeavors.


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## Ed (Jan 9, 2014)

MacQ @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> Ed @ Wed Jan 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Or, if you want mostly percussion (WELL PRODUCED), there's No Country For Old Men:
> ...



I felt True Grit's trailer missold it for me as well. 

I enjoyed both films, but kept expecting something else from them because of the trailers. Irritating, since this made me feel disappointment when I know if I hadn't had that set up in my brain, I'd not have had that.


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## germancomponist (Jan 9, 2014)

Alex Cuervo @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> I think it works. It may not be the sexiest production (although I think it sounds fine). I think a lot of you over think things when it comes to "functional music". It propels you forward while the guy is speaking on top of it & that's all it really needs to do. Clearly it's licensed/needle drop and not written to picture. Who would hire someone to write custom music for this kind of promo?
> 
> All that aside - I'm so pumped for a Vice news channel. What started out as a party scenester fashion & self-appointed taste-making entity has grown over the years into something really cool & smart & I applaud their new endeavors.



+1 (Yeah, I know now that many people here do not like my +1 posts, but.... .)


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## Ed (Jan 9, 2014)

Alex Cuervo @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> I think it works. It may not be the sexiest production (although I think it sounds fine). I think a lot of you over think things when it comes to "functional music". It propels you forward while the guy is speaking on top of it & that's all it really needs to do. Clearly it's licensed/needle drop and not written to picture. Who would hire someone to write custom music for this kind of promo?



I say it all the time that production music can be much better choice. 

I just don't agree with Gunther that it was at all special. But he has a thing against trailers , so we're used to it. This isnt even a trailer, so I dont really know why he specified "trailer composers", but anyway.


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## germancomponist (Jan 9, 2014)

You know, Ed, I am working in this industry for more than 25 years now. I know what works and what works not. Believe me! I made very much money here not because I do not know my job!

The most important thing when it comes to trailers or advertisements is that you have to transmit the message best!!!

The audience of such vids aren't composers....! The audience not subject to any hype in the composer industry! The most of them do not know that there is a company like "Two steps from hell" e.t.c. .... .

I regret it already that I've posted this link here!

Sorry, my bad! o/~


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## rJames (Jan 9, 2014)

germancomponist @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> You know, Ed, I am working in this industry for more than 25 years now. I know what works and what works not. Believe me! I made very much money here not because I do not know my job!
> 
> The most important thing when it comes to trailers or advertisements is that you have to transmit the message best!!!
> 
> ...



You can still post but you might assume that some people will not agree with you.


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## germancomponist (Jan 9, 2014)

rJames @ Fri Jan 10 said:


> You can still post but you might assume that some people will not agree with you.



I had it learned to swim against the current. One main reason that I have earned so much money in the past! 

Prost!


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## rJames (Jan 9, 2014)

How much money is so much money (since you brought it up)?


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## germancomponist (Jan 9, 2014)

rJames @ Fri Jan 10 said:


> How much money is so much money (since you brought it up)?



To built a house in the most desirable areas, to build a dream studio..... . Enough! 

But I do not like the subject. 

I do not like it when people write about a topic of which they have no idea... .


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## christianb (Jan 9, 2014)

germancomponist @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> rJames @ Fri Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > How much money is so much money (since you brought it up)?
> ...




ummm, who brought up the subject again?





christianb


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## germancomponist (Jan 9, 2014)

I see, this thread is nonsense. 

Mods, please delete it! 

In the future we better talk about the weather, will the sun shines tomorrow?


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## choc0thrax (Jan 9, 2014)

germancomponist @ Thu Jan 09 said:


> I see, this thread is nonsense.
> 
> Mods, please delete it!



I'm going to disagree and suggest that this thread be stickied.


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## christianb (Jan 9, 2014)

oh puppetcat, you scamp you.
miss ya



christianb


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## Ed (Jan 9, 2014)

heehe


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## Markus S (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re: Trailer composers, what do you think about this trailer?*



rJames @ Wed Jan 08 said:


> Oh, Ed. I thought you were gonna post this one. (I was hoping)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOohAwZOSGo
> 
> My cue "Stomping Behemoth," is from 2:09 to 2:20. I think this was the first trailer for the movie.



rjames, congratulations, you must be proud to have your music on this great movie trailer. It's one of the strongest from the Cohen brothers, IMO.

Still, I think there is somehow the same issue. Words and percussions in the same "area", distracts me from listening to either. Even though this here is better done, since the percussion is not so dry and further away.


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## guitarman1960 (Jan 10, 2014)

For what it's worth, I think this is a good thread, and it's a positive thing to challenge what has become a very narrow formula for trailer music.
The public don't know anything about trailer music or that it comes from production music libraries etc, but eventually even the general public will become very tired of every trailer sounding and looking the same, as if the same composer did the music for every single blockbuster trailer.
When people outside of the tiny world of trailer composers and trailer houses get tired of it, then it will change.


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## Waywyn (Jan 10, 2014)

germancomponist @ Fri Jan 10 said:


> I do not like it when people write about a topic of which they have no idea... .



... finally!


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## Lex (Jan 10, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Fri Jan 10 said:


> The public don't know anything about trailer music or that it comes from production music libraries etc, but eventually even the general public will become very tired of every trailer sounding and looking the same, as if the same composer did the music for every single blockbuster trailer.



You mean 20 years wasn't enough for them to get bored or start giving sh*t?
The music used for trailers sounds the way it does because movie studio's marketing department want's it to sound exactly like it does, and they want it to sound like that because their little charts and study groups say so, not because they have a very musical or unmusical ear...survey says...survey rules...

alex


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## guitarman1960 (Jan 10, 2014)

Lex @ Fri Jan 10 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Fri Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > The public don't know anything about trailer music or that it comes from production music libraries etc, but eventually even the general public will become very tired of every trailer sounding and looking the same, as if the same composer did the music for every single blockbuster trailer.
> ...



Totally agree with you, but thats partly the point I was making. When the public do get sick of it, then the focus groups used be the marketing departments will eventually reflect that. It's going to take a long time but eventually things will change or at least evolve a bit!

By the way I've got nothing against 'epic' trailer music as a genre, and feel it has plenty of interesting ways it can possibly evolve and move forward, but I suppose those who pay the piper to play the tune will need a lot of convincing by their marketing charts to allow it to move forward.


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## guitarman1960 (Jan 10, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Fri Jan 10 said:


> Lex @ Fri Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > guitarman1960 @ Fri Jan 10 said:
> ...



Totally agree with you, but thats partly the point I was making. When the public do get sick of it, then the focus groups used by the marketing departments will eventually reflect that. It's going to take a long time but eventually things will change or at least evolve a bit!

By the way I've got nothing against 'epic' trailer music as a genre, and feel it has plenty of interesting ways it can possibly evolve and move forward, but I suppose those who pay the piper to play the tune will need a lot of convincing by their marketing charts to allow it to move forward.


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## Waywyn (Jan 10, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Fri Jan 10 said:


> Lex @ Fri Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > guitarman1960 @ Fri Jan 10 said:
> ...




Here are a few points to think about:

- where does the public get sick of trailer music btw? Okay, few comments on this and that trailer but mostly ... did you experience many people in the theatre jump up and complain about it?

- if I hear people complain about epic trailer music it is composers itself, getting sick of the "intellectual decay of society" *rolleyes*

- there is an interesting thing which the BRAM going on. I've seen videos exclusively cutting scenes and trailers together by using the BRAM. I wonder where are all those videos about horn clusters, timpani hits, cymbal screetches and string risers are which have been extensively used for the last 20 years?!

- again, there are "hits" in trailer music. The same as there are hits by bands etc. you hear many times on the radio, you have specific trailer tracks getting features in trailers, because they simply work well and deliver the message!

- just to be sure (again), composers have no influences on the stuff getting used and featured where. It is not on us to change it, it is on the film companies to change it!


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## FriFlo (Jan 10, 2014)

[quote="Waywyn @ Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:29 

- if I hear people complain about epic trailer music it is composers itself, getting sick of the "intellectual decay of society" *rolleyes*

[/quote]

That is so not true! Normal movie goers might sometimes not spot the music as something separate from the visuals, but most people say that most trailers (or maybe even most genre films) are so similar to each other and. It is a myth, that only people doing music can hear the dullness of this forever repeating scheme.


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## bbunker (Jan 10, 2014)

I do realize this is an inflammatory cesspool to go wading into, so I better wear FRACUs, but:

I like Trailer music.

On trailers.

Because I can imagine a world where the trailers just have a random piece of classical music, and nothing will sound the same. And it'd be horrid.

I want those two minutes to tell me what kind of film it is. Don't baffle me with BS. If it's an action film, hit big brams, flash some hard cuts all over the screen, and bowl me over with the excitement. How can I tell if that Drama is more of a romantic one or a dark one? From the obvious, overused music. Are there big, soaring strings, or dark electronic swirls? It does its job to a T. It tells me what the film is about, and helps me decide whether I want to see it.

Borrowing very, very heavily from Mike Verta, if you want to take the public down the path your movie is asking them to take, and to make them feel it in two minutes? Yes, you have to grab both hands and guide them straight where you want to go.

Save the heavy stuff for...I don't know. When there's longer than 200 seconds to tell a story.


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## guitarman1960 (Jan 10, 2014)

I also like Trailer music, but it does bother me that genre films which should be exciting, such as in the Action/Sci-Fi/Superhero Hollywood blockbuster genres are starting to disappear up their own ass, with not only the Trailers but also the films themselves becoming more and more generic and interchangeable.

Don't want to be too pessimistic but it seems like we are in an era now where everything in the blockbuster genre has just been done to death.

It needs something like the cinematic equivalent of punk rock to come along and shake everything up.


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## guitarman1960 (Jan 10, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Fri Jan 10 said:


> I also like Trailer music, but it does bother me that genre films which should be exciting, such as in the Action/Sci-Fi/Superhero Hollywood blockbuster genres are starting to disappear up their own ass, with not only the Trailers but also the films themselves becoming more and more generic and interchangeable.
> 
> Don't want to be too pessimistic but it seems like we are in an era now where everything in the blockbuster genre has just been done to death.
> Chasing the dollars of brain-dead adolescents with the attention span of a goldfish seems to be the reason that everything just wants to be louder and more frantic than everythinmg else. Whats happened to mystery, suspense, atmosphere?
> ...


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## guitarman1960 (Jan 10, 2014)

I also like Trailer music, but it does bother me that genre films which should be exciting, such as in the Action/Sci-Fi/Superhero Hollywood blockbuster genres are starting to disappear up their own ass, with not only the Trailers but also the films themselves becoming more and more generic and interchangeable.

Don't want to be too pessimistic but it seems like we are in an era now where everything in the blockbuster genre has just been done to death.
Chasing the dollars of brain-dead adolescents with the attention span of a goldfish seems to be the reason that everything just wants to be louder and more frantic than everythinmg else. Whats happened to mystery, suspense, atmosphere?
Can you even imagine a world class movie with a world class soundtrack like the original Alien being released today?

It needs something like the cinematic equivalent of punk rock to come along and shake everything up.


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## Lex (Jan 10, 2014)

bbunker @ Fri Jan 10 said:


> I like Trailer music.
> 
> On trailers.


That!


and this




bbunker @ Fri Jan 10 said:


> Borrowing very, very heavily from Mike Verta, if you want to take the public down the path your movie is asking them to take, and to make them feel it in two minutes? Yes, you have to grab both hands and guide them straight where you want to go.
> 
> Save the heavy stuff for...I don't know. When there's longer than 200 seconds to tell a story.



I mean, sometimes we are asked to deliver a 15 sec TV spot tracks that need intro, dramatic middle and a huge last part...but no matter what you do those end up as a burst of noise from TV, interrupting your afternoon coffee , leaving you with a " 't fuk was that??" expression...

alex


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## danielcartisano (Jan 10, 2014)

Lex @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> bbunker @ Fri Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I like Trailer music.
> ...




It's a good point you make.

People often forget that we are working within a medium, and that medium is sometimes 15 seconds long.

It needs to jump out of you while you look at your phone during an ad break and say... "Fucking watch me until I'm done...". What says that more? A minimalist marimba piece or the sound of massive bangs and wooshes? 

I know what I'd be able to sleep through.


Daniel


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## mverta (Jan 10, 2014)

This post is going to be obnoxious beyond words, so forgive me.

...but... 

"Back in the day," when I was writing Trailer Music, Trailer Music was... music. Good trailers had cohesive pieces of music written for them; they weren't playlist snippets and impressions - that was what the editor gave you as temp. Whether it was action or drama or whatever, it was no less a cue than anything for a feature would be. Shitty trailer music was all over the place, and cliched, yes. But those of us who worked steadily turned out... I dunno, "complete pieces."

I went looking to see if I had any of my stuff online, and all I found was my trailer for _Into the Arms of Strangers: Stories of the Kindertransport_. From 2000. That was 14 years ago. 14... God Damn am I an old fuck.

Anyway, here is trailer music from 14 years ago: Kindertransport 

I hadn't heard this since 2000, and given that it's entirely virtual, I'm kind of surprised at where the sample libraries were even back then. Still, I think today's trailer music sucks the balls, mostly because it's usually cobbled together pieces of "that sounds cool," which don't actually say anything when taken together. And you don't need to do that just to keep ADD'ers from falling asleep. Yeah, I guess if you don't really have anything to say, you need to shout a lot, but...

But everything's different, now. People now say this: "I wasn't _expecting_ it to be a good movie. For my $10 I just want mindless stupid explosions and stuff; I don't need a big, engaging story." As though one has to choose one or the other...



_Mike


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## RiffWraith (Jan 10, 2014)

mverta @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> Anyway, here is trailer music from 14 years ago: Kindertransport



Nice track 

_Still, I think today's trailer music sucks the balls, mostly because its usually cobbled together pieces of "that sounds cool," which don't actually say anything when taken together. _

And whose fault is that?


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## mverta (Jan 10, 2014)

Like a lot of the music that's in "stuff" today, I think there's a good measure of, "They do not want what they have not got." 

Give starving people a choice between eating a bowl of curd and a bowl of shit, and they'll eat the curd every time; don't mean it's good.

Anyway, who gives a shit... They're turning out billion-dollar tentpoles by the ton. The only thing people give less a fuck about than the score is the trailer music. Throw some drums down, cash in, call it day.

_Mike


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## danielcartisano (Jan 10, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> mverta @ Sat Jan 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, here is trailer music from 14 years ago: Kindertransport
> ...




This is what I was going to ask you Mike.

I love your piece, it tells a story and I see it perfectly fitted to a drama film trailer. Maybe even a fantasy/drama like Pans Labyrinth.

At the end of the day, we are supplying the demand aren't we? We don't really get to choose what goes where. We just get them what they want. I would happily spend a month writing cues like yours (probably not as good) for trailers only for the production libraries to say "No, it's not what we're after".

So is it the production libraries or the producer/editors that are to blame? One (or both) of them have obviously got a part to play. Isn't it based on proven results? I guess it's just in our day and age, people want fast, big, loud, instant eye candy.


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## mverta (Jan 10, 2014)

Michael Uslan, one of the producers of Nolan's _Batman_ movies told me that when he got into the business, the heads of the studios were usually people who had studied story, structure, literature - in college or elsewhere. If nothing else, they had a sense of dramatic arc and convention. "Nowadays," he said, "it's a bunch of 26-year-old kids who've, 'seen a lot of movies,' the oldest of which is, 'Tommy Boy.'"

It struck me, because here was this guy, who's not, like, some bitter, old, washed-up dude pining for the old days. He was saying this right as he was in the middle of working the system and making tons of money with huge successes. But the bleak picture he was painting was no less real. It's like, trickle-down disintegration. It starts at the top with the money-givers, and when they don't know what they're doing, and can't tell good from bad, it just waters everything down. And since they're the only players and they control the entire board, there becomes nothing else to choose from, and everything normalizes to whatever the new lowest common denominator is. 

DiCaprio was talking about how stupendously rare Scorcese's new film is, in every way; that it if wasn't him with his clout, it just wouldn't ever get made. That era is over. He's right; it's a fact. 

And so what? This is how it is, and nobody really knows how it's going to play out. Personally, I notice ever so slightly there's a world-wide consciousness about things like non-processed food and health slowly returning to the fore, so maybe there's reason to believe things will return in some way other than as nostalgia. Personally, I've shifted gears. I spend my energy scouring the Earth for _my_ audience - people who like what I do, want me to do what I do, and will pay me to do what I do, versus trying to make an audience out of people who won't.

_Mike


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## Lex (Jan 11, 2014)

Yeah yeah. All trailers sound the same, boring epic music and bunch of unimaginative sound design. Well, here is six released in just last 4 weeks that don't. Do you guys watch trailers at all?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG9uFX3uYq4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hK-gQb9pUk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXRztrOK47I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WzHXI5HizQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKduCZbW4t4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tWrq0YusyM

alex


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm with Mike really. Most trailer music is dull cos most trailers are dull cos most movies are dull.

Battle Los Angeles is the perfect test case. Hugely original trailer music, really arresting, the visuals looked terrific too. In the end, the movie was another poor 2nd rate also-ran. So even if the trailer is something really special... it doesn't really matter.

Trailers are just adverts. We're selling something and trying to make it look good even if it isn't. Sometimes I just get to wonder why everyone gets so worked up over them... I get far more bothered about the generic movies themselves than the adverts for them.

But on a more positive note, folks have been saying for years that its not possible to make good studio movies any more, and that the system precludes it. Happily this isn't the case, and somehow good movies make it through. 12 Years A Slave, American Hustle, Gravity, Zero Dark Thirdy, Silver Linings Playbook, Captain Philips, Nebraska, The Wolf On Wall Street, Hunger Games, Argo, Life Of Pi, Les Miserables, all off the top of my head, and I've missed a boat load of other good movies (including many, many smaller more lower budget ones, not to mention foreign language). I've moaned publicly for a long time about the state of the modern Blockbuster and still will, but even there this year Gravity and Hunger Games have both shown some independent thought is still possible. It might be rarer than it was, but on sober reflection, I haven't entirely given up on Hollywood yet.

PS - I'm allowed this tangent cos the OP wasn't even a trailer in the first place, so I say all bets are off.


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## Lex (Jan 11, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> Sometimes I just get to wonder why everyone gets so worked up over them...



Not only that, but we make the same thread over and over at least twice a year. I did my bit, Gunther his, Verta his, you had your classic "the state of modern blockbuster" bit, what follows is that we say how Zimmer's Dark Knight Rises and Man Of Steel trailers were awesome, someone should mention TJ and 2Steps, and to finish it off we should have Mr. Asher mention his "Queen Of The Damned" tv spot he did 20 years ago, and we'r done with trailer music talk for next few months.


alex


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## germancomponist (Jan 11, 2014)

Lex @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Sat Jan 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes I just get to wonder why everyone gets so worked up over them...
> ...


But Alex, please have in mind: I opened this thread not to bash trailers! 

I was thrilled by this commercial spot (called it a trailer, ...oops, again-sorry for this) and posted it here. And you know that I like many trailers.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 11, 2014)

Lex @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Sat Jan 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes I just get to wonder why everyone gets so worked up over them...
> ...



I kinda blew it by slightly modifying my position, didn't I?

Still, as you say we really we should be able to just auto-generate these threads by now to save us all the bother.


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## rJames (Jan 11, 2014)

mverta @ Fri Jan 10 said:


> Anyway, here is trailer music from 14 years ago: Kindertransport
> _Mike



Agreed, this is really nice. But if I recall correctly, you worked as an in-house composer, music sup, audio guy... something like that anyway. 

I think you'll still get the occasional trailer that is scored to picture. But not often and not a blockbuster. I can't remember the movie, "Kindertransport," so I guess it falls into that category.

And that is not to denigrate the composition, which is very nice, just to state the change in the way its done today.

AS Lex has said about regurgitating previous trailer threads, I get to add my usual, "trailer composers are composing music to a picture that they have not seen, that has to work for as many pictures as possible, and have all the right hits, transitions, whooshes and stops so that there is a snowball's chance in hell for licensing.

I shouldn't have posted my own self-serving link here but I seldom get a chance to show that I've done anything in the movie business because I sometimes wonder if I really work in it (although I compose every day).

That piece is nothing to be proud of except that it shows my philosophy of composition which is "it is the idea that sells." Truth be told; that cue is nothing more than a series of car crashes held together by reversing metallic ambiences. But it was nice to tell my wife that I got a license. (and to live to compose another day)


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## mverta (Jan 11, 2014)

I certainly don't think they all sound alike, but every link you posted reinforces my point, Alex. Exactly one of them had an inherently compelling concept, and it ran out of steam at :54. Instellar's "epic" build actually had to repeat twice, not knowing what else to do. The Don-whatever movie was a cluster of grooves. 

Trailer music today is every bit as "effective" as film scores today. At any given moment, what you hear for a scene works, is appropriate, and sounds cool. It's a collection of really cool, really appropriate moments... which don't together tell a long-form, cohesive story. That's the difference. Not the sound, the structure. That's a structural, musical fact. But because any given moment is cool, nobody's complaining. My contributions to this thread represent exactly 100% of all the trailer bashing I've ever done on this forum, and as usual, I'm not bashing as much as encouraging composers to level up, which they can, and which I do my best to help with.

_Mike


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## mverta (Jan 11, 2014)

rJames @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> mverta @ Fri Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, here is trailer music from 14 years ago: Kindertransport
> ...



No, they just came to me a lot. 



rJames @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> I think you'll still get the occasional trailer that is scored to picture. But not often and not a blockbuster. I can't remember the movie, "Kindertransport," so I guess it falls into that category.



What a fuckin' tragedy, and further evidence of the watering-down effect. I had locked picture whenever I did trailers, for every kind of film in every genre, lots of blockbusters.





rJames @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> AS Lex has said about regurgitating previous trailer threads, I get to add my usual, "trailer composers are composing music to a picture that they have not seen, that has to work for as many pictures as possible, and have all the right hits, transitions, whooshes and stops so that there is a snowball's chance in hell for licensing.



Right, so it should be no surprise when generic cues don't have the specific structure of more compelling cues. That said, I still believe these pre-generated cues can, and should, have more compelling structure. But all of this is academic. We know WHY things are the way they are, but that doesn't erase what the final product actually ends up being. But then again, we weren't "trailer composers," back then; we were "composers."

And you should be proud of selling your work, always. That isn't easy. We strive to keep an objective eye on what we do, and improve ourselves and our craft as well, that's all.


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## Mike Greene (Jan 11, 2014)

rJames @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> I shouldn't have posted my own self-serving link here but I seldom get a chance to show that I've done anything in the movie business because I sometimes wonder if I really work in it (although I compose every day).


I *liked* that you posted the link, self-serving or otherwise. 8)


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## rJames (Jan 11, 2014)

Well, I think there are "composers" today who they, "come to a lot." But there were also "trailer composers," 14 years ago. Not so much pre 25 years ago though.

I've heard stories even though I wasn't in the business back then.

14 years ago mverta was "composing" to blockbusters? Love to see the link to those. I have to assume that they come very close to copyright infringement, not because that is his MO but because it was VERY MUCH the MO of the studios 14 years ago. (and still is)

And FWIW I am mostly agreeing with mverta about the state of the art.

I think the rub with studios is that they want music that is at the same level as viewers will find in their movie. Not necessarily the exact same style (although we see HZ getting into the business a little bit to help with that aspect) but at the same level or higher in terms of attention grabbing.

I assume that all of Lex's examples were choices of music supervisors who's task it is to look though tons and tons and tons of library music and find something, "new."

I doubt any of them were scored to picture, which is why they run out of steam at :54 or whatever.

I don't know how "sad" it is. It is advertising not art. I want it to be art. But it is advertising driven by a different motivation.

What is "sad," at least for me is the realization that if I want to "compose original music," then I should have worked harder at meeting directors.

In my defense, I got a very late start in the music business. And in the words of the guy who scoops up the elephant poop in the parade who was asked about why he doesn't find a new job, "what and quit show business?"

And thanks Mike. I'm going to go and check my Facebook page. Whoops, I don't have a Facebook page.


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## germancomponist (Jan 11, 2014)

mverta @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> Anyway, here is trailer music from 14 years ago: Kindertransport
> _Mike



Shit!

I wanted to post one or more of my work what I did at this time but my dat-recorder refuses to work. It seems that it is broken... . :-(

Edit:

I have found a link to old radio spots what I did at this time. The most what you hear are samples from the EMU samplers and me, guitar playing. 

https://app.box.com/shared/xg0lx32qgh


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## mverta (Jan 11, 2014)

rJames @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> 14 years ago mverta was "composing" to blockbusters? Love to see the link to those. I have to assume that they come very close to copyright infringement, not because that is his MO but because it was VERY MUCH the MO of the studios 14 years ago. (and still is)



I don't know what the quotes are for, but I'm not going to take it personally in case you have, like, a typing palsy or something. 

But you know, funny enough I was only ever asked to do something similar to another composer one time. I mean, other than that, nobody ever even once made an adjustment to any trailer I ever composed. The trailer was for Scooby-Doo, and the whole gag was a Batman misdirect, where you thought it was a Batman movie, but it was actually the Scooby-Doo movie, and they kept asking me to make it more and more like Elfman's Batman. They had this sort of idea that since both properties were WB, it would somehow work out. Finally, I got so close I think they ended up licensing the original. But like a lot of those trailers back then, I wasn't only writing the music, I was directing it, editing it, doing all the CG, motion graphics and sound design, and mixing it, so I had more to do than fight that battle, and just ended up doing something so close to Batman it might as well have been Batman. Here it is: Scooby Trailer

_Mike


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## rJames (Jan 11, 2014)

mverta @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> But then again, we weren't "trailer composers," back then; we were "composers."


Typing palsy. It happens to the best of us. Sometimes we don't even notice the symptoms until it is too late.


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## rJames (Jan 11, 2014)

mverta @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> But like a lot of those trailers back then, I wasn't only writing the music, I was directing it, editing it, doing all the CG, motion graphics and sound design, and mixing it, so I had more to do than fight that battle, and just ended up doing something so close to Batman it might as well have been Batman. Here it is: Scooby Trailer
> 
> _Mike



Look, props to you Mike! Seriously. But that is exactly what I was alluding to when I said you were in-house, "or something."

You said, "no, they just came to me a lot."

My point is that you almost have to be in-house to get the opportunity to score a trailer. And if doing CG, motion graphics,sound design and mixing doesn't fit that description, then I have typing palsy or something.

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. I was just trying to clarify a discussion.


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## mverta (Jan 11, 2014)

I think we're talking about different things...

I concede the environment is totally different, now, and most stuff is sourced from library, whereas 15 years ago, library music was the temp/crap music the editor went to, which we were hired to replace. And it's true that if you're writing music to be purchased by a library company, it has to be generic, not specific to a trailer, to get used - I've done a ton of library stuff myself over the years. All of this being true, and whether it's fair or not, is what leads me to the point that no matter _how_ or _why_ things are the way they are, the result on screen is less compelling music. It would almost be an act of sheer chance for it to be otherwise. The best bet is if an editor cuts the entire trailer to a single cohesive piece of music and that piece of music _itself_ has strong throughline and story, but even that in and of itself is stupefyingly rare these days.

_Mike


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## germancomponist (Jan 11, 2014)

mverta @ Sun Jan 12 said:


> I think we're talking about different things...
> 
> I concede the environment is totally different, now, and most stuff is sourced from library, whereas 15 years ago, library music was the temp/crap music the editor went to, which we were hired to replace. And it's true that if you're writing music to be purchased by a library company, it has to be generic, not specific to a trailer, to get used - I've done a ton of library stuff myself over the years. All of this being true, and whether it's fair or not, is what leads me to the point that no matter _how_ or _why_ things are the way they are, the result on screen is less compelling music. It would almost be an act of sheer chance for it to be otherwise. The best bet is if an editor cuts the entire trailer to a single cohesive piece of music and that piece of music _itself_ has strong throughline and story, but even that in and of itself is stupefyingly rare these days.
> 
> _Mike



To shorten it: Without these _parasites_ it would be financially better for the composers and the trailers would be much better! o-[][]-o 

When you listen to my spots, all what you hear is done by myself. I have the spot idea, I write the script, I hire the speakers, I do sfx, compose the music e.t.c. .


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## germancomponist (Jan 13, 2014)

Now listen to this one: 


And compare it now to my earlier posted vid: 


Interesting for the people who know _something_ about the "Bilderberger"?

A very interesting coincidence?


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## germancomponist (Jan 13, 2014)

The Bilderbergs:


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## Ciaran Birch (Jan 13, 2014)

Lex @ Sat Jan 11 said:


> Yeah yeah. All trailers sound the same, boring epic music and bunch of unimaginative sound design. Well, here is six released in just last 4 weeks that don't. Do you guys watch trailers at all?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG9uFX3uYq4
> 
> ...



They were a fantastic watch.  o-[][]-o


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## Greg (Jan 13, 2014)

germancomponist @ Mon Jan 13 said:


> A very interesting coincidence?




What an amazing new & fresh technique! I wonder if film trailers will try it someday? :roll:


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## germancomponist (Jan 14, 2014)

Greg @ Tue Jan 14 said:


> germancomponist @ Mon Jan 13 said:
> 
> 
> > A very interesting coincidence?
> ...





But my question was about the Bilderbergers on the one side and a news agency on the other side. Is there perhaps a connection? o/~


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