# Thoughts on NI/SoundIron Symphony Series Woodwinds?



## WindcryMusic (Jun 14, 2016)

Looks like this was perhaps just sprung on us today (or at least the tutorial videos were):

http://www.native-instruments.com/e...rchestral-cinematic/symphony-series-woodwind/

Pricing looks to be the same as it was for the Brass Collection ($299 crossgrade gets both the ensemble and solo libraries).

I've found the Brass Collection very useful, so I was and remain hopeful about this, but I'm not entirely convinced by what I am hearing in the demo videos thus far, particularly from some of the lower range instruments like bassoon, which sound a little bit raspy to me. I'm interested in other peoples' thoughts and reactions, though.


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## Zhao Shen (Jun 14, 2016)

Interesting section sizes again, and the sound isn't terrific. Definitely more excited for Sonokinetic's upcoming woodwinds.


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## mac (Jun 14, 2016)

I'll happily sacrifice a little sound 'quality' for their inspiring UIs


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## Ian Dorsch (Jun 14, 2016)

I was a demo composer for the lib, and I like it a lot. My demo is in the 'Solo' category on NI's page, but there's at least as much of the Ensemble lib in there too. I spent a lot of quality time with the ensemble saxes, clarinets, flutes and low winds (they are grouped into a single instrument in the Ensemble lib), and solo clarinet, sax and bassoon. Same space, and similar philosophy to the Brass (which I also like a lot), but my feeling is that the Winds are a little bit more musical and usable than the Brass out of the box. The Expression and FX instruments are very usable - lots of tasty little runs and flourishes, and the tempo synced arpeggios are great. I particularly love the aggression of the low winds stacc clusters, which are in at about -0:53 in my demo.

If you like the SI/NI Brass, I'd say it'd be pretty hard to go wrong with the Winds.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2016)

Ian Dorsch said:


> I was a demo composer for the lib, and I like it a lot. My demo is in the 'Solo' category on NI's page, but there's at least as much of the Ensemble lib in there too. I spent a lot of quality time with the ensemble saxes, clarinets, flutes and low winds (they are grouped into a single instrument in the Ensemble lib), and solo clarinet, sax and bassoon. Same space, and similar philosophy to the Brass (which I also like a lot), but my feeling is that the Winds are a little bit more musical and usable than the Brass out of the box. The Expression and FX instruments are very usable - lots of tasty little runs and flourishes, and the tempo synced arpeggios are great. I particularly love the aggression of the low winds stacc clusters, which are in at about -0:53 in my demo.
> 
> If you like the SI/NI Brass, I'd say it'd be pretty hard to go wrong with the Winds.




Hey, Ian, how is the legato?


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## cadenzajon (Jun 14, 2016)

One of my concerns about the brass ensemble was their recorded seating arrangements being "front-and-center" which is trickier to blend into an orchestral mix. Did woodwinds get similar treatment?

I'm looking to use them in more traditional orchestral mockups, so having only one solo flute and no divisi options for the ensemble is a pretty limiting factor. Too bad, because the price is a lot more appealing than the Berlin series...


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## shakuman (Jun 14, 2016)

Still VSL Woodwinds is the winner!


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## artmuz (Jun 14, 2016)

shakuman said:


> Still VSL Woodwinds is the winner!



Sure but NI/soundiron is only 149 for crossgrade...


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## WindcryMusic (Jun 14, 2016)

artmuz said:


> Sure but NI/soundiron is only 149 for crossgrade...



That price is only for the crossgrade for the Solo part of the package. The webpage is a little misleading about that for some reason, but the crossgrades appear to be as follows: solo library only = $149, ensemble library only = $199, and the combination = $299.


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## artmuz (Jun 14, 2016)

Ian Dorsch said:


> If you like the SI/NI Brass,



That is at least a problem for me, I didn't like it at all.

But for what concerns the winds and only on the base of the videos and demos I'm not sure.
The arp-engine produced nice soundings flute idiomatics phrases. I just admire all the composers for the demos, they exploits the good side of the libs and I know the works it involves


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## artmuz (Jun 14, 2016)

WindcryMusic said:


> That price is only for the crossgrade for the Solo part of the package. The webpage is a little misleading



Sure it is misleading that was not the case for the brasses. In that case I will stay out!


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## WindcryMusic (Jun 14, 2016)

artmuz said:


> Sure it is misleading that was not the case for the brasses. In that case I will stay out!



The crossgrade for the full Brass Collection (ensemble+solo) was/is also $299, FWIW.


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## sp_comp (Jun 14, 2016)

Ian Dorsch said:


> I was a demo composer for the lib, and I like it a lot. My demo is in the 'Solo' category on NI's page, but there's at least as much of the Ensemble lib in there too. I spent a lot of quality time with the ensemble saxes, clarinets, flutes and low winds (they are grouped into a single instrument in the Ensemble lib), and solo clarinet, sax and bassoon. Same space, and similar philosophy to the Brass (which I also like a lot), but my feeling is that the Winds are a little bit more musical and usable than the Brass out of the box. The Expression and FX instruments are very usable - lots of tasty little runs and flourishes, and the tempo synced arpeggios are great. I particularly love the aggression of the low winds stacc clusters, which are in at about -0:53 in my demo.
> 
> If you like the SI/NI Brass, I'd say it'd be pretty hard to go wrong with the Winds.



Great track Ian! One thing that sticks out to me is the air noise, especially on the flutes and bassoons. Are they baked into the samples or is there a way to pull the noise down separately?


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## 5Lives (Jun 14, 2016)

Wonder how these compare to Berlin Woodwinds which I literally just bought yesterday...


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## Zhao Shen (Jun 14, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Wonder how these compare to Berlin Woodwinds which I literally just bought yesterday...


IMO there hasn't been a woodwind library yet that challenges BWW as king of that category. You're fine 

But yeah, getting a bit sidetracked. Ian, have these woodwinds found a spot in your template, and if so, what for? I'm having some trouble thinking of what purpose these would perform best at - in your experience with the library so far, what do you find that it excels at most?


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## Rodney Money (Jun 14, 2016)

I will be flat honest with all of you, after listening to the solo video demo it is an absolute no for me. This library cannot compare to CineWinds, BWW, or VSL. The flute has the timbre of a middle schooler, and that saxophone sounds downright awful. Alrighty, I will await my hate responses, lol.


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## Ian Dorsch (Jun 14, 2016)

sp_comp said:


> Great track Ian! One thing that sticks out to me is the air noise, especially on the flutes and bassoons. Are they baked into the samples or is there a way to pull the noise down separately?



They are pretty airy, but I also have the close mics pretty hot in my demo. The stereo mix and other mic positions are less noisy.



Zhao Shen said:


> But yeah, getting a bit sidetracked. Ian, have these woodwinds found a spot in your template, and if so, what for? I'm having some trouble thinking of what purpose these would perform best at - in your experience with the library so far, what do you find that it excels at most?



Ensemble winds have been a weak spot in my template, and the NI/SI Ensemble library will definitely find a home there. I have VSL and Fluffy solo winds, and the NI/SI Solo Winds legatos are not going to displace those, but the FX, Expression articulations (crescendos, decrescendos, sfz, etc) and tempo sync arpeggios are musical and useful, and different from anything else in my arsenal.

Jay - Legatos are decent, comparable to the brass lib. I found the ensemble legatos easier to work with than the solo legatos. If you've already got some good legato winds, the legatos are probably not really a big selling point of this library, but I'm glad they're there.

The winds are recorded front and center, like the brass. They seem a little bit more 'positioned' to me than the brass does, but that is a completely unscientific and anecdotal statement and it may be totally wrong.


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## artmuz (Jun 14, 2016)

WindcryMusic said:


> The crossgrade for the full Brass Collection (ensemble+solo) was/is also $299, FWIW.


I meant the pricing of the brass or any other lib is not misleading, my bad..


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## Rodney Money (Jun 14, 2016)

Here are the ensemble patches:


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## WindcryMusic (Jun 14, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> I will be flat honest with all of you, after listening to the solo video demo it is an absolute no for me. This library cannot compare to CineWinds, BWW, or VSL. The flute has the timbre of a middle schooler, and that saxophone sounds downright awful. Alrighty, I will await my hate responses, lol.



I'm not sure I would say it is quite as bad as that, hehe, but I can't disagree with your verdict, because the sound of it isn't grabbing me the way that the OT demos do, and I am having a hard time imagining fitting this into my orchestral efforts. If I needed woodwinds for more pop or band-style stuff, then maybe it would be closer. Alas that BWW is more than a little rich for my blood at the moment, so I'll continue with my mix of Albion and EWQLSO woods for now I guess.


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## guydoingmusic (Jun 14, 2016)

I wrote one of the demos for this as well. I used the entire Symphony Series lineup (WW, Brass, Strings). Woodwinds are both the ensemble and solo patches. Like Ian said earlier, the selling point may not be the legato portion of the library, but the FX, shorts, and arpeggios hold a spot in my template now for sure. The legatos are great... I'm not saying they are bad by any means. It's just the other patches are so useful and inspiring... as well being easy to use. 

As for panning and positioning... I used the stereo mics only with the woods. Positioning was really easy. I used the panner built into the UI. Being recorded in center position wasn't an issue for me. 

In fact, I wrote that demo at the very last minute. Literally... the day of the deadline. To put it into perspective, I had never used Symphony Series Strings or the Woods before that day. So dialing in a sound, creating a cohesive template, and writing was no problem at all. 

Instruments I used:
WW's - Symphony Series Woodwinds(Ens and Solo)
Brass - Symphony Series Brass(Ens and Solo)
Strings - Symphony Series Strings
Perc - SI Apocalypse Perc. Ens.
Timpani - Cinesamples
Harp - Spitfire Harp
Choir - SI Requiem Light


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## procreative (Jun 14, 2016)

For those that have Komplete the cross grade pricing is tempting. I already have Berlin Woodwinds, but the Ensemble version is intriguing. Not totally convinced over the sound as some of the higher register staccatos sound a bit overblown to me. Also not sure why they did not record in seating positions.

However I think a whole ensemble patch might have been useful as a RAM saver when you want that Unison blast through a melody.

I think the only thing is whether the Soundiron recording setup pays dividends. When you compare the signal chain against Spitfire or OT with their scoring spaces, large desks, premium converters, you do have to wonder if all that hardware (and premium players) makes a difference to the fundamental sound.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2016)

I honestly don't know how to make an assessment with it swimming in that much reverb.


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## guydoingmusic (Jun 14, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I honestly don't know how to make an assessment with it swimming in that much reverb.


I could post a version with MORE reverb if you like, Jay?


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2016)

Here is a crazy idea, how about a pretty dry version? 

Wacky, I know.


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## guydoingmusic (Jun 14, 2016)

@Ashermusic I'll try to bounce out a dry version in the morning for you.


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## Mundano (Jun 14, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Here are the ensemble patches:




really disappointing...


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2016)

guydoingmusic said:


> @Ashermusic I'll try to bounce out a dry version in the morning for you.



Thanks.


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## Rodney Money (Jun 14, 2016)

So they recorded 6 players for each ensemble which means 6 soprano flutes in C, 6 soprano clarinets in Bb? Ridiculous. This is what they should've recorded then in my personal opinion: flute ensemble: piccolo, 2 flutes, 2 altos, bass flute; clarinet: Eb, 2 clarinets in Bb, alto, bass, and contrabass; double reed: 2 oboes, oboe d'amore, english horn, bassoon, contrabassoon; saxophones: soprano, 2 altos, tenor, baritone, and bass.

This would've made more common sense, sounded better, and cut cost removing 2 ensembles. Then solo instruments could've been: flute, oboe, English horn, clarinet, bassoon, alto saxophone, bass clarinet, and contrabass bassoon.


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## Baron Greuner (Jun 15, 2016)

This is a weird and wonderful sounding woodwind library. Almost as if it was produced by someone who never sat in front of, or played in a real orchestra ever.

I think NI are onto a winner here.


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## passsacaglia (Jun 15, 2016)

Concur with Rodney about the solo instruments, english horn..?
And yes, Baron, weird and wonderful it is. I have no "full" wood library yet, only the VSL SE woods 1, might need a brass and wood library and these ones looks and sound nice to me, but are the other wood libraries this "noisy" in the recordings (aware of the recording noise for the realistic effect of a hall etc), or it could be my speakers enhancing those sounds for now..will have to re-listen. But I loved the ensemble and its effects!


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## chrysshawk (Jun 15, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> This is a weird and wonderful sounding woodwind library. Almost as if it was produced by someone who never sat in front of, or played in a real orchestra ever.
> 
> I think NI are onto a winner here.



Most orchestral sections have been covered, so it's a fine time in history to move onto novel section sizes. Any string library should have no more than 10 violins and no less than 20 double basses


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## procreative (Jun 15, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> So they recorded 6 players for each ensemble which means 6 soprano flutes in C, 6 soprano clarinets in Bb? Ridiculous. This is what they should've recorded then in my personal opinion: flute ensemble: piccolo, 2 flutes, 2 altos, bass flute; clarinet: Eb, 2 clarinets in Bb, alto, bass, and contrabass; double reed: 2 oboes, oboe d'amore, english horn, bassoon, contrabassoon; saxophones: soprano, 2 altos, tenor, baritone, and bass.



I agree with you on this, the product name is "Woodwinds Ensemble", they could have grouped them and created orchestrated patches a bit like Albion ONE (but with many more articulations).

Shame because the depth of articulations is good as is the recorded Arpeggiato patches. I also like the Crescendo, Decrescendo and Sforzando patches and sync capabilities. And the GUI is nice, as is the cross grade price.

As a KU9 owner I have been very tempted as its a low price of £169 (I would only have bought the Ensemble version as I have Solo covered amply and well by BWW). However not totally convinced by what I hear noise wise (not sure if its as bad as it sounds in the videos), the odd player numbers and the lack of orchestral seating.

Had a look over my ensemble libraries that I have such as Albion ONE and Da Capo and they have pre-orchestrated groupings, but lack anywhere near the same depth of articulations. I can see what they tried to achieve here, but I think Soundiron's lack of orchestral sampling experience shows in both this and the Brass offering as the seating and venue choice don't make sense. Shame.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jun 15, 2016)

those trills are so sloooow


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jun 15, 2016)

Hej Folks.

I had a listen to the patch Walkthrough and I have a bit to defend the library at least at some points: I think that their targeting group is not this kind of heavy orchestral writer who eager to have control over every little section with exposed solo instruments and all that fiddling around. The sections sizes are indeed not a-typical though I always tell you something: Samples behave a bit differently when it comes to real world experiences and I think that those ensemble could blend pretty cool when you double lines. I like the tone so far, so I disagree with some opinions here. Still I am interested in a dry sound examples. Cheers.


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## rottoy (Jun 15, 2016)

I hereby demand sections featuring contrabass flutes doubled with timpani and kazoos.


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## procreative (Jun 15, 2016)

Alexander, I do not think lack of control is not the issue. In fact they are still split into instruments. Its just that the concept would have worked better as mixed instruments in sections. Unlike Brass which they also did, typical orchestral woodwind sections are smaller clusters of instruments, so having 6 flutes or 6 bassoons is a bit for the sake of it (and I have actually heard some solo libraries that sound almost as big!).

There is a brief example of the Mics in one of the videos which shows the Close only.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 15, 2016)

I am all about developers creating their concept and if they think it sounds good putting it into the marketplace rather than being slavish to some guys on a forum's ideas about "the real thing."

But I will reserve judgement until I hear a dry example. I mean, it was recorded in a church, right? So it is going to be pretty ambient without added reverb presumably.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Jun 15, 2016)

procreative said:


> but I think Soundiron's lack of orchestral sampling experience shows in both this and the Brass offering as the seating and venue choice don't make sense.


I think that statement is highly unfair. As if it were that hard to imagine that they might have done orchestral sampling before but maybe they were not selling it. As if it were that hard to imagine they actually thought about what to record before doing so... there even is the chance that they might have tried how different ensembles sound. In the end they might not have decided one single thing of all of this alone but maybe they really worked quite close with NI in the development phase? There even is the chance they really tried to do libraries that are mono-compatible and mixer friendly and thus centered and not laid out like an usual orchestral seating would dictate.
Besides they do have a very large amount of experience when it comes to sampling choirs. which might be considered symphonic sampling. that's quite close actually. Ever heard Mathews Passion from Bach or Händel's Messiah? chances are high that might have been performed in a church.

Ok, none of this has been stated somewhere. But... that's no reason to imply developers are stupid.

And as last point - there might even be some people around out there that like orchestral colors to enhance their music that is not intentional 'orchestral' but maybe pop, rnb, etc. If they want a subtle orchestral sound they reach out for solos if they want a full orchestral sound: bigger is always better


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## bbunker (Jun 15, 2016)

The problem I have with the...let's say unconventional nature of the ensembles is how the product is actually being advertised. It says "Symphony Series" right on the lid. NI's mailer says "Premium Orchestral Scoring." The disconnect between what those words actually mean, and sample sets of six wind instruments? Including most bizarrely: Tenor Saxophones? I feel kind of the same about it as if I saw a 'Premium Symphony Series Strings' that sampled orchestras of Ukuleles: could it be cool? Sure. But it doesn't have much of anything to do with what it claims to be.

I noticed in Soundiron's e-mailer that slightly different language was used in the copy writing. The word 'Massive' appears several times in that mailer, including the header with its "A massive new symphonic woodwind collection..."

I get that "massive-ness" is an important selling point in 2016. Six Horns sure do have more oomph than one does, and that makes sense. But if you walked into a room full of Orchestrators and started talking about how you demanded to have six oboes on a recording session to play lines in unison, then they'd probably lock you in the basement until whatever chemicals you'd taken had worn off and you'd ceased to be a danger to society.

I'm sure this new library could be useful to some people - I'm not saying that developers aren't allowed to experiment with this kind of thing. But at what point do you look at all of the language about Premium-Authentic-Symphonic-Orchestral-Definitive buzzwords, look at the samples recorded, and call BS and demand some truth in advertising? Is it before or after they sample six Garklein recorders in unison for the 'Expanded Symphony Series?!?'


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## Ashermusic (Jun 15, 2016)

I don't know, bunker. If Berlioz had lived longer, he might have wanted six oboes


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## rottoy (Jun 15, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I don't know, bunker. If Berlioz had lived longer, he might have wanted six oboes


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## Mundano (Jun 15, 2016)

Sorry, i have heard the demos by NI website, and i have to say LOVELY compositions, but AWFUL woodwinds... Maybe this kind of samples (with noise airy ambient) fit very well in specific composers wishes, but imo i wouldn't use these for blending them for example with NI Symphony Series String Ensemble. The sound actually doesn't fit togegher... Sorry... Until i would have it to experiment i suppose one would have to tweak a lot in the mix process to have them together blended in the same hall...


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## airflamesred (Jun 15, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I think that their targeting group is not this kind of heavy orchestral writer who eager to have control over every little section with exposed solo instruments and all that fiddling around.


I think this is true, this is NI/NI customer driven sound. It'll sell.


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## bbunker (Jun 15, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I don't know, bunker. If Berlioz had lived longer, he might have wanted six oboes



Thank goodness he didn't live long enough to ruin his legacy then... 

I mean Mahler Two with its twenty-five brass parts still wouldn't have all four oboes at unison without at least one on Cor Anglais.

I'm intrigued though - if anyone knows a piece that actually uses six of any winds at unison I want to hear it!


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## Rodney Money (Jun 15, 2016)

bbunker said:


> Thank goodness he didn't live long enough to ruin his legacy then...
> 
> I mean Mahler Two with its twenty-five brass parts still wouldn't have all four oboes at unison without at least one on Cor Anglais.
> 
> I'm intrigued though - if anyone knows a piece that actually uses six of any winds at unison I want to hear it!


Marching band, concert band music, but it's not going to be double reeds, and in this music the composer doesn't specify 6 people, the ensembles might just have those numbers.


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## procreative (Jun 15, 2016)

rocking.xmas.man said:


> I think that statement is highly unfair. As if it were that hard to imagine that they might have done orchestral sampling before but maybe they were not selling it. As if it were that hard to imagine they actually thought about what to record before doing so... there even is the chance that they might have tried how different ensembles sound. In the end they might not have decided one single thing of all of this alone but maybe they really worked quite close with NI in the development phase? There even is the chance they really tried to do libraries that are mono-compatible and mixer friendly and thus centered and not laid out like an usual orchestral seating would dictate.



I did not say they were stupid, I just said perhaps the decision to pan centrally (which incidentally their former colleagues at 8Dio do) was at odds with a "Symphony Series". I also stand by the fact that Spitfire et al use much more sophisticated Mic setups and dummy seating with baffles to closer approximate orchestral ambience.

I actually like Soundiron and their philosophy, but I must admit if I were NI and I wanted to produce a "Symphonic Series" (a) I would have approached other developers ahead of Soundiron based on past libraries and (b) would have stuck to one developer and one venue for all titles for a consistent sound.

As it goes I like the choice of articulations, the GUI, the concept. Just not convinced of the merits of such big sections of one instrument which is what V8Ps 8th Wonder sold itself on.

As a K9U owner I can take a punt for not a lot, but should I?


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## bbunker (Jun 15, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Marching band, concert band music, but it's not going to be double reeds.



I should have been more specific that I was thinking within the confines of the 'Symphonic Series' title. Good point.


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## Mundano (Jun 15, 2016)

procreative said:


> (b) would have stuck to one developer and one venue for all titles for a consistent sound.


+1. That's what i've said. In the demos there is one with NISSSE and Woodwinds Ensemble. It doesn't fit well at all....


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## Ashermusic (Jun 15, 2016)

bbunker said:


> Thank goodness he didn't live long enough to ruin his legacy then...
> 
> I mean Mahler Two with its twenty-five brass parts still wouldn't have all four oboes at unison without at least one on Cor Anglais.
> 
> I'm intrigued though - if anyone knows a piece that actually uses six of any winds at unison I want to hear it!



You can say that, but sooner or later someone will do it and do it well.


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## Rodney Money (Jun 15, 2016)

Here's an example that could use the instrument


bbunker said:


> I should have been more specific that I was thinking within the confines of the 'Symphonic Series' title. Good point.


Here's an example of what the Symphonic Series could possibly excell at http://arrangerspublishingcompany.com/apc_media_player/playerwindow.php?item=M204
It's a marching band arrangement of Sweet Sweet Spirit. Ah, takes me back to 1994!


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## bbunker (Jun 15, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> You can say that, but sooner or later someone will do it and do it well.



Perhaps...but my point isn't that it isn't possible to find a place where six oboes are just what are needed. It's that there's a disconnect between the samples and the 'Definitive, Authentic, Symphonic, Orchestral' marketing language. If they'd called it 'Excessive, Pushing the Limit, Massive, Somewhat-stretching-the-bounds-of-reason' then I couldn't really complain.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 15, 2016)

bbunker said:


> Perhaps...but my point isn't that it isn't possible to find a place where six oboes are just what are needed. It's that there's a disconnect between the samples and the 'Definitive, Authentic, Symphonic, Orchestral' marketing language. If they'd called it 'Excessive, Pushing the Limit, Massive, Somewhat-stretching-the-bounds-of-reason' then I couldn't really complain.




That is a fair point. But I take ALL marketing from ALL developers with more than just a grain of salt


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## JohnBMears (Jun 15, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Here's an example that could use the instrument
> 
> Here's an example of what the Symphonic Series could possibly excell at http://arrangerspublishingcompany.com/apc_media_player/playerwindow.php?item=M204
> It's a marching band arrangement of Sweet Sweet Spirit. Ah, takes me back to 1994!



Hey Rodney, I actually know Jay Dawson very well! He's a great arranger and I have worked with ArrPubCo for a while. Small World!

JOHN


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## Mundano (Jun 15, 2016)

Mundano said:


> Sorry, i have heard the demos by NI website, and i have to say LOVELY compositions, but AWFUL woodwinds... Maybe this kind of samples (with noise airy ambient) fit very well in specific composers wishes, but imo i wouldn't use these for blending them for example with NI Symphony Series String Ensemble. The sound actually doesn't fit togegher... Sorry... Until i would have it to experiment i suppose one would have to tweak a lot in the mix process to have them together blended in the same hall...





Mundano said:


> +1. That's what i've said. In the demos there is one with NISSSE and Woodwinds Ensemble. It doesn't fit well at all....



very sorry for this, because i admire the guys of Native Instruments... By this example i mean Strings and Woodwind's sound/hall/ambient doesn't work together:




(time counter doesn't matter, hear easy the whole example)


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## Rodney Money (Jun 15, 2016)

JohnBMears said:


> Hey Rodney, I actually know Jay Dawson very well! He's a great arranger and I have worked with ArrPubCo for a while. Small World!
> 
> JOHN


Alright, I am about to share a little too much, but Jay is one of those people who unknownly changed my life ever since I was in high school back in the 90's. Sweet Sweet Spirit was our warm up, and the very first piece I ever played in high school. Other prominent arrangements have been Land of Make Believe and America the Beautiful. Also, Tom Wallace's Tennessee Waltz was our marching band's theme song in college, and I even did an arrangement of Victor Lopez's Salza and Chimps for one of my recitals. It has always been a dream of mine to have something published by them, but life and other comissions got in the way. I do have a piece now that I would believe would make a wonderful warm up, opener, or production piece. We can talk more in private messages, but I wouldn't even know how to contact them. Like I said, Jay is one of my heroes, and his music has truly changed my life. I also conducted his Count Every Blessing in a few concerts while in college to honor him and thank him. What pieces have you done, my friend?


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## Ian Dorsch (Jun 15, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I honestly don't know how to make an assessment with it swimming in that much reverb.



The library is pretty darn ambient with no verb at all. I'd have to go back and check to be sure, but I think I've got barely any reverb applied to the winds in my demo. I like the approach - I tend to go pretty verby with orchestral samples, and I dig the big, bright ambient sound of Soundiron's 'epic' church. But if you're looking for an intimate scoring stage vibe, this may not be the right library.

Re: unconventional sections, etc - this is a legit criticism, but I like SI's approach. Between my well-worn collection of VSL winds, EWQLSO and Albion One, I already have some pretty solid samples of conventional sections and ensembles. I've looked at BWW and decided that it didn't offer enough beyond what I already had to drop the money on it. This library, on the other hand, is completely its own thing, and I really appreciate that.


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## guydoingmusic (Jun 15, 2016)

My demo is fairly dry as well. I only added a small amount on the final mix.

@Ashermusic sent you a DM


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## tomaslobosk (Jun 15, 2016)

I really enjoyed doing a demo for the library, and man I'm picky!
There are some aspects that could be improved yeah (as in any library), but overall it's really nice


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## Ashermusic (Jun 15, 2016)

guydoingmusic said:


> My demo is fairly dry as well. I only added a small amount on the final mix.
> 
> @Ashermusic sent you a DM


Thank you, I think that I like what I am hearing. It has some attitude.


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## Mundano (Jun 16, 2016)

*"Price*: $499. " woa...


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## Vovique (Jun 16, 2016)

I like the sound,the interface and the arpeggiator, planniing to buy the ensembles crossgrade later this summer. $199 crossgrade is neat, full price not so much.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 17, 2016)

I just received this and so far, 20 minutes or so in, I am really, really loving it. If I turn of the reverb and stereo mic and load the close mic, and pan properly, I think I may have my new "go to' woodwinds.

The sound and flexibility is great and I find the legato really playable. I will be reviewing this for macProVideo.com and I can already predict it will be very positive.


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## prodigalson (Jun 17, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I just received this and so far, 20 minutes or so in, I am really, really loving it. If I turn of the reverb and stereo mic and load the close mic, and pan properly, I think I may have my new "go to' woodwinds.
> 
> The sound and flexibility is great and I find the legato really playable. I will be reviewing this for macProVideo.com and I can already predict it will be very positive.



Looking forward to this review! can you let us know when it's available?


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## Ashermusic (Jun 17, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> Looking forward to this review! can you let us know when it's available?




Sure. I will write it first week next month and usually they post it about three weeks to a month later unless I make a point of asking them to do iso as soon as they can.


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## WindcryMusic (Jun 17, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I just received this and so far, 20 minutes or so in, I am really, really loving it. If I turn of the reverb and stereo mic and load the close mic, and pan properly, I think I may have my new "go to' woodwinds.
> 
> The sound and flexibility is great and I find the legato really playable. I will be reviewing this for macProVideo.com and I can already predict it will be very positive.



Really? That's a pleasant surprise. Maybe I ought to go back and look at this package a little more closely.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 17, 2016)

Well, as we all know though, my taste is not always in sync with the majority on forums


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## Mundano (Jun 21, 2016)

I can't believe that the mic positions were showed and exposed SO SHORTLY (at 0:48) and never again, specially the dry position....  ...and no others instruments more than the flute...


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## Mundano (Jul 12, 2016)

After hearing Sonokinetic woodwinds released videos i have a positive word for NI Woodwinds in comparison: this ensemble and instruments have sound character. what i didn't find pleasant through the demos and videos was the church ambient mics. I think this space isn't a neutral space for blending them in the mix with other libraries. After hearing Sonokinetic demos i recognize the good quality of NI Woodwinds, BUT 


Ashermusic said:


> If I turn of the reverb and stereo mic and load the close mic, and pan properly, I think I may have my new "go to' woodwinds.


Why should one has to turn off mics that are supposed to fit standards? Also that means that something is missing to work appropriately out of the box within spaces (halls) or is it a matter of taste...? And not every woodwind ensemble is supposed to play in a church. ..OT BWW, and new released Sonokinetics WW have a very decent room mics that doesn't color heavily the original sound of the instruments. IMHO


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## Ashermusic (Jul 12, 2016)

Mundano said:


> A
> Why should one has to turn off mics that are supposed to fit standards? Also that means that something is missing to work appropriately out of the box within spaces (halls) or is it a matter of taste...? And not every woodwind ensemble is supposed to play in a church. ..OT BWW, and new released Sonokinetics WW have a very decent room mics that doesn't color heavily the original sound of the instruments. IMHO



Taste. I like my libraries a little drier to blend with other libraries I use. I don't own either of those but if i did I probably would be looking for the drier mic combos.


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## galactic orange (Aug 16, 2016)

In case anyone is following this thread, I thought I'd put the link to the review thread here:

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...dwinds-by-soundiron-native-instruments.55118/

Thanks to Don, Jay, and Lawson for these long awaited reviews!


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## galactic orange (Aug 16, 2016)

The Symphony Series Woodwind bundle looks very appealing to me with the Komplete crossgrade price. I'm just a hobbyist getting started and trying to cover the basics. There are so many options for woodwinds today that I don't know which route to take. The SS Woodwinds have that church reverb, which is the same as the SS Brass (but different than the SS Strings, both of which I own). I usually do as Jay suggested by mainly using close mics. In addition, I shorten the Release setting to cut off a bit of the sample tail especially when using staccatos on horns, trumpets, etc. So I'd imagine I could pull off the same thing on woodwinds.

Another option would be going with Berlin Woodwinds, but my concern would be how to get the Teldex sound and the rest to mesh together. The only dedicated convolution reverb I have is Logic Space Designer. I don't mind tweaking and taking the time to get it sounding good IF it's possible. A different approach would be to add a few solo instruments (8DIO Claire Piccolo and English Horn) to round out and supplement the Symphony Series Woodwind collection. I might be better off just sticking with the NI/Soundiron stuff.

My current orchestral lineup:

strings: NI Symphony Series String Ensemble
brass: NI Symphony Series Brass Collection (both solo and ensemble)
choir: Soundiron Olympus Elements and Mercury Elements
percussion: Soundiron Apocalypse, Impact Soundworks Juggernaut, Heavyocity Damage 

Planning to add:

8DIO Agitato
Musical Sampling Soaring Strings
8DIO Sopranos
one more brass library for variety (Bravura, Berlin Brass, Century Brass, Sample Modeling... waiting for more options)
some traditional percussion! Impact Soundworks Rhapsody might be enough.

If you've read this far, sorry for the long-winded post.
Time to decide whether to go the piecemeal route and possibly invest in a convolution reverb, or stick with one brand for easier blending of libraries. Since my current library is still relatively small, what approach is best?


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## Lawson. (Aug 16, 2016)

galactic orange said:


> If you've read this far, sorry for the long-winded post.
> Time to decide whether to go the piecemeal route and possibly invest in a convolution reverb, or stick with one brand for easier blending of libraries. Since my current library is still relatively small, what approach is best?



I personally think Berlin Woodwinds one of the best complete woodwind library on the market (VSL ranks high as well, though I don't have it to compare). You really can't go wrong with it. It's definitely possible to get it to blend; in fact BWW is one of the easiest libraries to blend with things IMO. Teldex is not too wet but not too dry, and the variety of mics makes it easy to push them out or pull them back in. Space Designer is good enough to just add a little bit of extra wetness to blend with your brass, but since you said you use close mics, you may not actually need any verb at all to get it fitting. 

I don't think it's a good idea to stick with one brand for easier blending of libraries, as I'm of the opinion of "if it sounds good, fit it in!". That being said, I am eagerly awaiting Berlin Brass so I can finally have all four orchestra sections in the same room from the same developer. 

[Note: I have received free products from Orchestral Tools]


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## Rodney Money (Aug 16, 2016)

Let me put it this way, out of all the libraries I own if I was forced to get rid of all of them save one, I would keep BWW.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Aug 17, 2016)

Comparing some wood instruments, including Bass, ContraBassoons, Bassoons, Clarinets, Oboe, different Flutes. Solo and in an Ensemble from SoundIron, 8Dio, Orchestra Tools, Spitfire Audio, Fluffy, Cinesamples, and Project SAM.

This small comparison may help in finding the right tune when you compose and wonder if the gras is greener in that other library. 

The whole session starts with one Piano and ends with a Piano (both from 8Dio)


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## Rodney Money (Aug 17, 2016)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> Comparing some wood instruments, including Bass, ContraBassoons, Bassoons, Clarinets, Oboe, different Flutes. Solo and in an Ensemble from SoundIron, 8Dio, Orchestra Tools, Spitfire Audio, Fluffy, Cinesamples, and Project SAM.
> 
> This small comparison may help in finding the right tune when you compose and wonder if the gras is greener in that other library.
> 
> The whole session starts with one Piano and ends with a Piano (both from 8Dio)



With all do respect, my friend, and thank you for taking the time to demo your woodwind libraries, perhaps a comparison of single legato lines with some added short articulations would be better suited when comparing Woodwinds rather than a part featuring the idiomatic writing of the piano?


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## Thorsten Meyer (Aug 17, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> With all do respect, my friend, and thank you for taking the time to demo your woodwind libraries, perhaps a comparison of single legato lines with some added short articulations would be better suited when comparing Woodwinds rather than a part featuring the idiomatic writing of the piano?


Rodney, you are the man, let me see what I do tomorrow)


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## Rodney Money (Aug 17, 2016)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> Rodney, you are the man, let me see what I do tomorrow)


Looking forward to it!


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## markleake (Aug 17, 2016)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> Rodney, you are the man, let me see what I do tomorrow)


+1 for Rodney's comment. Chords don't really come into play much for these kind of libraries. Thanks for the efforts with the demo though.

If you wanted to go a bit further in any redo, try to match the volume levels, and send the samples which are dry through a reverb.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Aug 18, 2016)

For each library one short articulation and one long articulation.

Comparing woodwind instruments, including Bass, ContraBassoons, Bassoons, Oboe, Flutes. Solo and in an Ensemble. Instruments are made by SoundIron, 8Dio, Orchestra Tools, Spitfire Audio, Cinesamples, Kirk Hunter Studios, and Project SAM.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Aug 18, 2016)

markleake said:


> If you wanted to go a bit further in any redo, try to match the volume levels, and send the samples which are dry through a reverb.



I did not have time to add reverb as I getting everything wrapped up.


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## Arviwan (Aug 23, 2016)

Hi everyone, this is my first contribution on VI forum, even if i read it a lot; and i want to precise i'm french, so ...forgive my english (i know it's usually the other way around 
I own Berlin WoodWinds, NI/SI ww, 8Dio Majestica and Hollywood Orchestra ww.
I'm sorry to say this, but soundwise SI/NI arrives last, and by far !
Their Brass library is ok and interesting, (even if -IMHO- lacking some punch on high velocity/dynamics), and i'm using it.
But their ww lib ... i'm actually re-selling it (along with ISW Bravura with which I had the same kind of disapointment) , if someone is interested (i hope i'm not breaking any rules by writing this here). 
It's true that all the articulations, phrases ... found in NI/SI ww are interesting, but it just doesn't sound good enough !
I don't mean to be rude to anyone, and it's only my opinion, but i was willing to share my experience.


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