# The power of cables...



## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 19, 2021)

Audiophile cables:


> Pricing:
> Another unique feature of Allnic Cables is *the very low cost *associated when longer lengths are required. Here are current prices of some Allnic ZL cables (in *USD*):
> 
> *ZL 5000 speaker cable 2M: $3200 ($300/0.5M additional length). Bi-wiring is $400 extra.*
> ...


Shared with pleasure. 


https://corbysaudio.com/whats-new%2Fblog/f/allnic-cables



Note: A "power cable" is a 110v wire that connects the amp to your wall outlet.

There are tons of similar companies around with even more expensive products so this might be a bargain.


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## MusiquedeReve (Sep 19, 2021)

If someone wants to spend money on these types of things and it makes them happy and allows them to "hear" a difference, then more power to them - they are stimulating the economy 

I am quite sure there are tons of people out there who cannot "hear" any difference in one strings library to the next but that doesn't stop us from spending money on them


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## dhmusic (Sep 19, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Audiophile cables:
> 
> Shared with pleasure.
> 
> ...


Oh dope! I've been looking to consolidate my studio space -Do these cables offer spirit healing?


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## kgdrum (Sep 19, 2021)

I can’t explain the technology behind “boutique “ power cables but from my experience and perspective some of this is quite real and from my understanding most of the benefits are related to improved shielding that stock power cables don’t provide. If anyone ever looks at my signature they will see the last item on the list is Shunyata,they are a really interesting company that makes power cords and power strips.
I worked in extreme high end Hi-Fi for 11 years and I was totally skeptical when we were first introduced to their line of products. Snake oil,fairy dust all of the descriptive terms people generally use were my general feelings, I thought this is total marketing bullshit!
The developer behind these products, *CAELIN GABRIEL *supposedly worked for the NSA many years ago and developed products to lower the noise floor for NSA surveillance and eavesdropping,whether this is true or a marketing fairytale I really don’t know but I find this really interesting nonetheless.
Well the rep left us with a ton of different power cords and their power (strip) distributors and we went to work to test this line out.
Again I thought this was total snake oil bullshit but strangely enough you can really hear differences between their different power cords and the power distributors. The difference in the noise floor and the overall sound once we would try removing the Shunyata products was undeniable.
I went from a total skeptic to fully embracing the product line.
I have 3 of their power distributors and 8 of their power cords,it’s not cheap and yes the higher tiered products can be considered obscenely expensive but the difference in sound is really amazing!
The benefits of using these power cords is immediately obvious when you use it with interfaces,dacs etc……..Anything with digital audio converters or power supply’s really improve with the shielding these power cords offer.
The late great Peter Alexander (Alexander Publishing)and I discussed this at length and he wanted to publish an article about my views on this but I declined.I don’t have the tech background to address what’s going on authoritatively and I didn’t want the pushback from most musicians like myself that thinks it’s all snake oil garbage.
I trust my ears I have literally tested hundreds of power cables and power distributors from various companies on hundreds of different systems. Some companies I agree are marketing bullshit and the stuff is bogus but there are some companies making extraordinary power oriented products that once you start using them you will never go back to using the stock power cord that comes in the box whenever possible.
If you can find a retailer that will let you try them in your system I doubt most people will not recognize the improvements these products offer.










Home - Shunyata Research


Shunyata Factory Tour with Robert Harley and The Absolute Sound! ALTAIRA Receives Product of The Year from Robert Harley, Editor-in-Chief of The Absolute Sound “Shunyata’s ALTAIRA System is a revelation, not only taking my system’s performance to the next level of sound quality, but also in...




shunyata.com


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## jbuhler (Sep 19, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> not cheap


That’s an understatement! I guess the question is even if it’s not snake oil where in the line of upgrades does something like this fall? Presumably room acoustics, monitors, and audio interface all take precedence, in that you won’t hear the difference if these parts of your system aren’t already performing very well.


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## kgdrum (Sep 19, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> That’s an understatement! I guess the question is even if it’s not snake oil where in the line of upgrades does something like this fall? Presumably room acoustics, monitors, and audio interface all take precedence, in that you won’t hear the difference if these parts of your system aren’t already performing very well.


That’s a good question without an obvious answer, everyone’s priorities and needs are different but I’ve tried this in treated and untreated rooms and the difference for me the former skeptic is totally apparent in either case.
The top tier(pricing) power cables are extremely expensive and the pricing still makes me cringe,lol but even the entry level or a couple of tiers up are really,really good.
I would never suggest buying these without being able to do a trial on your system so if I was dipping my toes into the water of power cables I recommend finding a dealer or manufacturer that will let you try before you commit,try to test the better cords that are in your budgetary comfort zone & let your ears tell you if this stuff is real.


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## el-bo (Sep 19, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> That’s an understatement! I guess the question is even if it’s not snake oil where in the line of upgrades does something like this fall? Presumably room acoustics, monitors, and audio interface all take precedence, in that you won’t hear the difference if these parts of your system aren’t already performing very well.


I'd imagine if the hum and noise is noticeably finding its way onto real world analog-to-digital recordings (and in a way that RX is unable to deal with), then that might take priority over all the above. But for 100% in-the-box, ones-and-zeros composers, perhaps not a priority at all. Unless I'm missing something


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## Dirtgrain (Sep 19, 2021)

Dang, I was going to upgrade my power cable, but I'll have to PM them to see if I can buy just one prong for the outlet, and get in a piecemeal plan to build the whole cable over the next year or so.


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## Tim_Wells (Sep 19, 2021)

I'll wait till I win the Powerball.


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## kgdrum (Sep 19, 2021)

Dirtgrain said:


> Dang, I was going to upgrade my power cable, but I'll have to PM them to see if I can buy just one prong for the outlet, and get in a piecemeal plan to build the whole cable over the next year or so.


I appreciate your valiant attempt to inject humor & deride a product or technology you’ve never used and are clearly too biased to evaluate,understand or accept objectively.
Do you often make these kind of blanket assumptions with products and technology that you obviously don’t understand and never actually used?
If so BRAVO! 👏


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## CeDur (Sep 19, 2021)

I too was skeptical, but then I bought 2000$ USB C to USB A cable to connect my audio interface to PC and suddenly, wow! What a difference in sound! It seem that when you've spent all your money on USB cable so nothing's left for food and then listen to the music while starving, it's a completely different experience. It changes the sound perception completely.



Spoiler: PS. It's true.



No, it's not.


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## kgdrum (Sep 19, 2021)

Here’s some endorsements from a few “rubes” for all of the skeptics who dismiss the technology before they actually try it out,they obviously can’t know what they are talking about.


_Shunyata Research power cables and interconnects made a remarkable difference in my reference system. These are not subtle tweaks… as unbelievable as it may seem, a greater improvement than changing the whole front end. I could not recommend them highly enough."_

*Rick Rubin 
8-Time Grammy Winning Record Producer*

_"With digital sources it was almost as if we had switched from 44.1k/16 bit to 96k/24 bit. We now run all our analogue machines, workstations and the mixing console from the Shunyata equipment." _

*Andy Jackson 
Astoria Studio UK*

_"We first put the HYDRA to test on a monitor system that had problems with noise and clarity. The result was less noise with an improvement in overall sound quality. We now use the HYDRA’s on our Model 2 converters, AES router and main monitor system consisting of B&W 802 speakers and Chord Amps."_

*Clayton Wood
Senior Engineer at Skywalker Ranch*

_"I have personally evaluated the HYDRA power conditioning system along with your PowerSnakes power cables. Especially, with my 2 track tape machines, the sound with your system was definitely more transparent and clear. I would highly recommend Shunyata Research products to any professional audio/video facility."_

*Vlado Meller
Senior Mastering Engineer, Sony Music Studios*


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## el-bo (Sep 19, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> I appreciate your valiant attempt to inject humor & deride a product or technology you’ve never used and are so clearly too biased to evaluate,understand or accept objectively.
> Do you often make these kind of blanket assumptions with products and technology that you obviously don’t understand and never actually used?
> If so BRAVO! 👏


C"mon, man! Surely you knew going into this type of thread to expect this kind of humour. It's a rite of passage for such threads on forums. Seems like nothing more than a bit of fun (As you noted in your opening sentence).


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## kgdrum (Sep 19, 2021)

If someone is a real geek check out the medical and clinical use for this technology.
The video further down the page (1st link)from a MD is really interesting.









Technology - Shunyata Research


Technology “We set out to research and discover how to achieve the highest level of audio and video reproduction. It was our first goal, and it continues to be our only goal.” – Caelin Gabriel, Founder and Lead Designer Dynamic Instantaneous Current Delivery (DTCD) DTCD® Analysis is the...




shunyata.com














Case Studies – Clear Image Scientific






clearimagescientific.com


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## kgdrum (Sep 19, 2021)

el-bo said:


> C"mon, man! Surely you knew going into this type of thread to expect this kind of humour. It's a rite of passage for such threads on forums. Seems like nothing more than a bit of fun (As you noted in your opening sentence).


Of course that’s why I answered his post with sarcasm. That's also why I turned down Peter Alexander’s request to to an article for his website,I didn’t want the uninformed pushback that always develops with the biased naysayers that will dismiss all of this technology before trying.


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## dhmusic (Sep 19, 2021)

CeDur said:


> I too was skeptical, but then I bought 2000$ USB C to USB A cable to connect my audio interface to PC and suddenly, wow! What a difference in sound!


I'm in the market for a printer cable. Been looking into this for months, super stoked. Could you run some tests and get back to me?

Thx


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## el-bo (Sep 19, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Of course that’s why I turned down Peter Alexander’s request to to an article for his website,I didn’t want the uninformed pushback that always develops with the biased naysayers that will dismiss all of this technology before trying.


i think you missed my point i.e Humour is humour, don't read too much into it. 

However, there are also two aspects to this: One is whether these kinds of thing are or are not snake-oil, and the other is the absolutely ludicrous pricing. Someone using sarcasm/humour in reference to pricing does not demonstrate that they are a nay-sayer (They may, in fact, have zero issue accepting the existence of a discernible difference). Either they are passing judgment on the price, or possibly just making a joke regarding their own inability to pay for it.

Either way, perhaps just roll with the jokes. I might be wrong


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## dhmusic (Sep 19, 2021)

el-bo said:


> i think you missed my point i.e Humour is humour, don't read too much into it.
> 
> However, there are also two aspects to this: One is whether these kinds of thing are or are not snake-oil, and the other is the absolutely ludicrous pricing. Someone using sarcasm/humour in reference to pricing does not demonstrate that they are a nay-sayer (They may, in fact, have zero issue accepting the existence of a discernible difference). Either they are passing judgment on the price, or possibly just making a joke regarding their own inability to pay for it.
> 
> Either way, perhaps just roll with the jokes. I might be wrong


pssh you know you're not wrong lmao

Speaking for myself here:

The humor isn't in the quality of the product itself. I mean maybe it's vital in some sensitive applications, I can't really argue with that.

It's just hysterically tone deaf as a consumer-marketed product given the current economic landscape, wealth inequality and all that fun stuff.

The fact that someone would buy something like this purely as a luxury basically requires ridicule in order to avoid acknowledging the dreadful lack of awareness that would require.

So yeah it's like "stupid" or pitchforks for us peasants.

it is an extremely biased opinion though, no doubt about that. That's class struggle.


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## kgdrum (Sep 19, 2021)

el-bo said:


> i think you missed my point i.e Humour is humour, don't read too much into it.
> 
> However, there are also two aspects to this: One is whether these kinds of thing are or are not snake-oil, and the other is the absolutely ludicrous pricing. Someone using sarcasm/humour in reference to pricing does not demonstrate that they are a nay-sayer (They may, in fact, have zero issue accepting the existence of a discernible difference). Either they are passing judgment on the price, or possibly just making a joke regarding their own inability to pay for it.
> 
> Either way, perhaps just roll with the jokes. I might be wrong


The high end products are obviously uber expensive but the entry level & a couple of tiers above (the last time I looked) are pretty reasonable.
I find it ironic that people here will buy libraries routinely that cost thousands of dollars but if you suggest technology they haven’t used and don’t really understand that can actually improve the overall system we are using for the music we are creating & it’s instantly derided & dismissed.


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## CeDur (Sep 19, 2021)

Many sonic parameters can be actually measured. I'm wondering why a manufacturer which sells 3000$ cables won't hire some 'independent engineers team' to perform scientific tests and publish the results, to shut the mouth of all nay-sayers and skeptics? Put some HQ mics in an noise-isolated room, record a response from the speakers, repeat in exactly the same conditions, just changing power cords or speaker cables or whatever (being careful not to even slightly adjust position of mics/speakers). Compare recordings. Publish results.


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## kgdrum (Sep 19, 2021)

CeDur said:


> Many sonic parameters can be actually measured. I'm wondering why a manufacturer which sells 3000$ cables won't hire some 'independent engineers team' to perform scientific tests and publish the results, to shut the mouth of all nay-sayers and skeptics? Put some HQ mics in an noise-isolated room, record a response from the speakers, repeat in exactly the same conditions, just changing power cords or speaker cables or whatever (being careful not to even slightly adjust position of mics/speakers). Compare recordings. Publish results.


Did you even bother looking at some of the links I posted?










Technology - Shunyata Research


Technology “We set out to research and discover how to achieve the highest level of audio and video reproduction. It was our first goal, and it continues to be our only goal.” – Caelin Gabriel, Founder and Lead Designer Dynamic Instantaneous Current Delivery (DTCD) DTCD® Analysis is the...




shunyata.com


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## CeDur (Sep 19, 2021)

Yes, actually I did. No comparison data regarding audio applications, only some graphs for those medical (still missing data like test conditions, info what was the configuration prior to Shunyata solution etc.). It's by no means scientific.


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## kgdrum (Sep 19, 2021)

CeDur said:


> Yes, actually I did. No comparison data regarding audio applications, only some graphs for those medical (still missing data like test conditions, info what was the configuration prior to Shunyata solution etc.). It's by no means scientific.


Yes and you’re obviously more informed and qualified to evaluate this than the medical community who are obviously gullible fools and you have better ears than Rick Rubin and the mastering engineers that have embraced this technology.

👍


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## CeDur (Sep 19, 2021)

We are discussing 3000$ audio cable, I'm asking for scientifical proof and you respond with a link which shows 2 graphs that are supposed to be 'the proof' (having nothing to do with music listening/production), even missing units and completely no data regarding test conditions. Then you give another 'proof' for the product being great: it is 'recommended' by some famous people. Well, that's obviously the ultimate answer to any doubts :D

When I point it out and say it's not a valid scientific argument you go for the ad personam route. Very, very mature.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 19, 2021)

Sorry for unleashing such passions everyone! 

I just found this page and was surprised to say the least by the prices mentioned.


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## dhmusic (Sep 19, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Yes and you’re obviously more informed and qualified to evaluate this than the medical community who are obviously gullible fools and you have better ears than Rick Rubin and the mastering engineers that have embraced this technology.
> 
> 👍


Hey man, some of us don't even have ears.

Some of us have to use a makeshift system of tuning forks constantly attached to our body to "hear" the music

Maybe think about those tuning fork people for a change...

Think about how crazy they are...

okay I'm scared now...


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## CeDur (Sep 19, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Sorry for unleashing such passions everyone!
> 
> I just found this page and was surprised to say the least by the prices mentioned.


No reason to be sorry. There is a reason to by surprised by those prices though


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## md11 (Sep 19, 2021)




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## kgdrum (Sep 19, 2021)

CeDur said:


> We are discussing 3000$ audio cable, I'm asking for scientifical proof and you respond with a link which shows 2 graphs that are supposed to be 'the proof' (having nothing to do with music listening/production), even missing units and completely no data regarding test conditions. Then you give another 'proof' for the product being great: it is 'recommended' by some famous people. Well, that's obviously the ultimate answer to any doubts :D
> 
> When I point it out and say it's not a valid scientific argument you go for the ad personam route. Very, very mature.


Well I’m glad you can make these informed decisions and judgment calls by utilizing the power of the internet and your flat earth theories without even actually trying the products being discussed which actually range from about $150 USD and up.
Obviously you have more knowledge,information ,expertise and most importantly the experience with these types of products that world class mixing and mastering professionals who must be total morons are embracing! I’m also assuming if you ever need a medical procedure and the hospital and specialist’s are using this technology you’ll say : no thanks, I’ll go on the internet and do it myself.

👍


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## CeDur (Sep 19, 2021)

The only person calling anyone 'moron' here is you. Also it seems you must have some kind of paranormal skills, since you've been able to remotely 'discover' that I'm a flat-earther. Maybe those are the same senses that allow you to 'feel' the benefits of that revolutionary cable technology.

It's funny even once I did not write that the product is poor. I'm stating it's overpriced and probably won't make any audible difference in audio applications compared to 100x cheaper products. By the way, nice pirouette to call a person who asks for measurements a 'flat-earther' and at the same time use the 'famous people like it!' argument to justify its price. Well, fanaticism is an interesting ailment.


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## MartinH. (Sep 20, 2021)

Unless you're doing BLIND comparison tests (meaning you don't know whether you are hearing the expensive cable or the cheap cable), you're not doing quality comparison tests, you're doing bias confirmation tests. 

Anyway, the best power cable is no doubt this one: 






It's an old meme, known as "ethernet killer".


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 21, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Unless you're doing BLIND comparison tests (meaning you don't know whether you are hearing the expensive cable or the cheap cable), you're not doing quality comparison tests, you're doing bias confirmation tests.


Scientists would argue that even a *double-blind study* is necessary in such cases, i.e. a study where neither the participants nor the researcher knows the conditions and details of the experiment, so as to avoid _any_ interference, even unintended.

Many manufacturers oppose such testing methods. Same with ABX switching boxes or similar comparators I was told. Why? I don't understand... It could prove them _right!_


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## Bernard Duc (Sep 21, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Yes and you’re obviously more informed and qualified to evaluate this than the medical community who are obviously gullible fools and you have better ears than Rick Rubin and the mastering engineers that have embraced this technology.
> 
> 👍


I trust the medical community (my whole family is part of it), but the fact that it can reduce unwanted noises on an ECG (which by the way shows that the installation was problematic to start with, I've seen many ECGs and none had that kind of issue) doesn't mean that the product will offer any audio improvement except maybe if there was obvious electrical problems to start with. If, when monitoring audio, there is for a split second a tiny noise induced by some electric disruption, it absolutely doesn't matter (it's however bad if you're doing a medical procedure). Now, I can believe that some rooms have been badly conceived and in some specific cases that kind of system (or one of the much cheaper versions that also work) will fix the problem, but as a way to generally improve the sound of a system it makes little sense. I've been to several mastering studios and I never thought "I wish the noise floor could be lower", and whichever tiny noise there was always to be expected due to electrical components after the power source. And yes, I did study physics before doing music.

Also, endorsements from mastering engineers mean very little to me. Sponsorships (getting the product for free or at a huge discount) in exchange of an endorsement is how the whole hi-fi industry works. Engineers and studio will be more than happy to comply since it expensive gear always looks good and might matter to some client.

But if they send me a free Hydra I would be happy to test it and review it honestly here! Hey, I might even ask Abbey Road studios (they are my neighbors) if we could test it on their setup.

Also, I'm reading a hifi forum on which people are complaining that their Shunyata power chord sounds worse than the stock one, but according to another user it's because power chords need to be break in and will sound the best only after 200h


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## Tim_Wells (Sep 21, 2021)

Behringer just came out with a version for $29.99!


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2021)

I got mine off of Alibaba for even less.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 21, 2021)

About Abbey Road Studios: I don't know what they use for power cables but for A/V connexions they use this (actually 2.3km of it ) :





Abbey Road Studios Case Study | Van-Damme


Having had a relationship with Abbey Studios for more than three decades, we have been at the heart of several Abbey Road studios refits. Read about the projects here.




www.van-damme.com




Oh, and you can buy their old XLR connectors for a mere US$200 too:








Introducing The Abbey Road Studios Limited Edition XLR Connector Paperweight


The Abbey Road Shop has released a limited edition of 46 unique paperweights, each featuring one of the studio’s original XLR connectors encased in resin and individually engraved with its own number.




www.abbeyroad.com


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## doctoremmet (Sep 21, 2021)

Okay. Just checking, seeing the dangerously serious direction this discussion is suddenly taking…

My Waves Abbey Road TG12345 and Mastering Suite plugins DO still make all of my tracks sound like they were recorded by Alan Parsons in 1973…. Right?


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 21, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> My Waves Abbey Road TG12345 and Mastering Suite plugins DO still make all of my tracks sound like they were recorded by Alan Parsons in 1973…. Right?


Yes, but only if you use the right digital cable to your DAC, Doc! 
_Only if... _


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## CeDur (Sep 21, 2021)

Regarding the main topic: the cable quality does matter. If you connect any electrical device with some el cheapo one with poor shielding and connectors you are asking for trouble sooner or later. It is worth paying extra for something solid. Is it worth paying super extra, like dozens times extra for something that's not even scientificaly proven to be superior to the 'solid' option? Well, not for me.



Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Scientists would argue that even a *double-blind study* is necessary in such cases, i.e. a study where neither the participants nor the researcher knows the conditions and details of the experiment, so as to avoid _any_ interference, even unintended.
> 
> Many manufacturers oppose such testing methods. Same with ABX switching boxes or similar comparators I was told. Why? I don't understand... It could prove them _right!_


Double blind test is better than blind test and even this is better than not-a-blind test. Still, human ears + brain combination is a terrible measuring device for such a nuance. The same source material, same speakers, same room and same chair you're sitting on - it's enough to turn your head a few degrees left, right, up or down, lean forward a bit and the sound can be noticably different. It's just physics, wave lenghts and reflections. There are other conditions as well: what do you focus on when listening (one 'perceives' a song differently when focused on eg. bassline vs strings part). How tired you are? You've just woke up or left noisy subway 15minutes ago? Also, when you listen to the same song for the 10th time you hear more things than when hearing it for the 1st. Even how audio equipment looks likes may influence the mood of listener and the same time sound perception. It all matters. So many variables.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 21, 2021)

CeDur said:


> Regarding the main topic: the cable quality does matter. If you connect any electrical device with some el cheapo one with poor shielding and connectors you are asking for trouble sooner or later. It is worth paying extra for something solid. Is it worth paying super extra, like dozens times extra for something that's not even scientificaly proven to be superior to the 'solid' option? Well, not for me.


Cannot agree more! Now how do you propose to proceed to "scientifically prove that its superior or not" to the cheaper but still well-built option?


CeDur said:


> Double blind test is better than blind test and even this is better than not-a-blind test. Still, human ears + brain combination is a terrible measuring device for such a nuance. The same source material, same speakers, same room and same chair you're sitting on - it's enough to turn your head a few degrees left, right, up or down, lean forward a bit and the sound can be noticably different. It's just physics, wave lenghts and reflections. There are other conditions as well: what do you focus on when listening (one 'perceives' a song differently when focused on eg. bassline vs strings part). How tired you are? You've just woke up or left noisy subway 15minutes ago? Also, when you listen to the same song for the 10th time you hear more things than when hearing it for the 1st. Even how audio equipment looks likes may influence the mood of listener and the same time sound perception. It all matters. So many variables.


Indeed but given that all these variables will _always_ affect listening don't you think that double-blind testing is the _least_ we can do if we're not to "blindly" accept the manufacturers' claims? What else is there? Or are we to just give up all testing since we're ourselves "unreliable" listeners from one day to another?

Anyway the shorter the test is, the more reliable it will be as our echoic memory for sound is about 3-4 seconds anyway. In that case double-blind with ABX is the best one can hope for comparing two sounds and it also takes care of your other concerns.

Added: of course power cables are a different story! One cannot _instantly_ switch them to compare without shutting off the device which, I'm sure, manufacturers will claim makes it sound different (instabilities, etc.) BUT (suggested to me) one could compare power cables A and B this way: Listen to A. Connect B in parallel to A and then remove A to listen to B. Can be done in less than 4 seconds easily, I'm being assured, without switching off the device. But again manufacturers...


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## CeDur (Sep 21, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Cannot agree more! Now how do you propose to proceed to "scientifically prove that its superior or not" to the cheaper but still well-built option?


For audio cables, the method similar to what I suggested in one of previous posts. The simplified scenario: connect 'set A' of cables, record speaker response with microphones (of course connected to device independent from the one being tested) playing different types of source material (silence - to measure noise floor, some sine waves etc.), repeat multiple times, average, repeat the whole procedure for 'set B' of cables, compare data.


Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Indeed but given that all these variables will _always_ affect listening don't you think that double-blind testing is the _least_ we can do if we're not to "blindly" accept the manufacturers' claims? What else is there? Or are we to just give up all testing since we're ourselves "unreliable" listeners from one day to another?


I've used ABX tools to test myself if I can hear 128kbps vs 320kbps vs FLAC or 44.1kHz vs 96kHz. To get reliable outcome it has to be repeated more than a few times (to reduce the variance). Blind test is a great way to test whether the difference is *audible*, but not *how huge *the difference is. I don't think there is a man on this planet who would be able to summarize such a test with "oooh, I've heard the noise floor on set A was 1.53784dB lower than on set B".


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 21, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Unless you're doing BLIND comparison tests (meaning you don't know whether you are hearing the expensive cable or the cheap cable), you're not doing quality comparison tests, you're doing bias confirmation tests.


Taking banter seriously, this is one of my pet arguments - that is, I argue against it.

Double blind comparison tests are very useful, but that doesn't mean regular A/B comparisons are confirmation bias by any stretch - especially when the differences are subtle and you need help to train yourself to hear the differences.

Often there are only short periods when you can hear tiny differences, before your brain tells you everything is the same. And our acuity isn't always the same, any more than anything else we do is.

Also, some things only become obvious after you listen to them for a very long time, like over days.

Yes, it's annoying when people tell other people they didn't hear what they know perfectly well they did hear.


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## wst3 (Sep 21, 2021)

so here's the thing... power cables are almost never shielded. Why? Because a shield is 100% ineffective at power line frequencies. Middle Atlantic and a few others are now selling power cables where the hot and neutral are twisted, and the geometry with the ground is very tightly controlled. These have been shown to reduce the EMI, they do nothing for RFI, as expected.

If you have a really poorly designed power supply it is possible that it can dump RFI hash onto the power cables. Possible, but not common. That was a problem when switching power supplies were just entering the market.

I'm not saying one way or the other that this expensive power cables make a difference. I got out of that debate a long time ago. I have participated in double blind studies and I was unable to distinguish between power cables, as were the rest of the participants.

I will add that in a properly designed studio neither EMI nor RFI should be an issue. It is not that difficult to design for low noise.


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## el-bo (Sep 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> pssh you know you're not wrong lmao


"I might be wrong" is my 'ghetto' legal disclaimer


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## MartinH. (Sep 21, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Taking banter seriously, this is one of my pet arguments - that is, I argue against it.
> 
> Double blind comparison tests are very useful, but that doesn't mean regular A/B comparisons are confirmation bias by any stretch - especially when the differences are subtle and you need help to train yourself to hear the differences.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. I don't trust myself with non-blind tests. You wouldn't believe how often I tweaked a parameter on a plugin and thought "ah, much better", only to realize I still have the whole plugin bypassed.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 21, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Fair enough. I don't trust myself with non-blind tests. You wouldn't believe how often I tweaked a parameter on a plugin and thought "ah, much better", only to realize I still have the whole plugin bypassed.


Oh, sure - we've all done that.

My argument is with the whole Internet in general. And - in my best parental tone - you should trust yourself when you do hear things. The ear is amazingly sensitive, and you really can hear things that don't seem like you should be hearing.


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## MusiquedeReve (Sep 21, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> My argument is with the whole Internet in general.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 25, 2021)

Somebody sent me this link. A good deal: merely C$18000 (US$14k) for a used pair of 2.5m "mini speaker cables" (were paid C$38k new). They say "very rare on the used market". Photos.



https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649727835-zensati-seraphim-mini-speaker-cable/



Should be sold at Christie's instead


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## MusiquedeReve (Sep 25, 2021)




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## dzilizzi (Sep 25, 2021)

I find that cables that are less noisy than the noise floor of my (usually mild) tinnitus are not that expensive. 

I do think that there is probably some truth to better cables equals less noise, I've actually noticed less hiss/buzz with something like Mogami vs the cheap stuff I started with when plugging in a mic.

But when your home studio is in a street side room near a busy street, are you really going to notice it? Spending more than my mortgage payment on a single cable is ridiculous. You are still going to have some base hum coming from the computer, house sounds, etc... This stuff is more useful in a studio with soundproofing and other noise reduction options.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 25, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> I find that cables that are less noisy than the noise floor of my (usually mild) tinnitus are not that expensive.


Since you mention "noise floor" (or "floor noise" as others would say, same difference) I think that you are in dire and urgent need of some of these:








DF-SS Cable Elevator - Shunyata Research







shunyata.com




Preferably many of them. 

Added: I wouldn't want to seem to be promoting one particular brand of cable elevators so here are a few more choices available.


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## dzilizzi (Sep 25, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Since you mention "noise floor" (or "floor noise" as others would say, same difference) I think that you are in dire and urgent need of some of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I find the carpet keeps some of the floor noise down. Doesn't help with the loose boards under the carpet though.   

Then we have the chair noise.....


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## Quasar (Sep 25, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Oh dope! I've been looking to consolidate my studio space -Do these cables offer spirit healing?


Yes, they do indeed offer spirit healing, but only if you use the 432Hz tuning reference when playing through them.


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## jmauz (Sep 25, 2021)

Glad to see this conversation slowly morphing back to the OP's original intention - giving us all a good laugh.

Unfortunately it seems 'karens' lurk in the online forums as well, seeking to ruin lighthearted and innocently fun conversations with injections of their dark existence marred by extreme insecurities and overall miserableness.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 25, 2021)

jmauz said:


> Glad to see this conversation slowly morphing back to the OP's original intention - giving us all a good laugh.


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## jmauz (Sep 25, 2021)

By the way, if your avatar is a picture of you - has anyone ever said you bear a striking resemblance to Amiee Mann?


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## LatinXCombo (Sep 25, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Sorry for unleashing such passions everyone!
> 
> I just found this page and was surprised to say the least by the prices mentioned.


"Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it." -Publilius Syrus


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 25, 2021)

jmauz said:


> By the way, if your avatar is a picture of you - has anyone ever said you bear a striking resemblance to Amiee Mann?


Haha! Of course it's me  I don't know her. But very often people have confused me with Sharon Stone, in Russia and also in Canada, even asking me autographs in restaurants, stopping me on the street, etc.!  And I thought that it was all about my music!


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 26, 2021)

Are these "*anaconda oil*" speaker cables ??  You'll be the judge...




I'm sure that their price is as disgusting as their look ! 

For other audio herpetologists, especially _power cables_ enthusiasts, there's *this prehistoric beauty *that my husband baptised *Titanoboa*  
It sure can squeeze the life out of your wallet 




Just make sure to use them _inside_ your studio walls too, up to the street pole transformer and to ask your power company to retrofit their system all the way back to the power station for full effect!


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## Martin S (Sep 26, 2021)

That’s just insane !!! - paying a fortune to have giant coprolites and prehistoric slugs laying around…


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## Stringtree (Sep 26, 2021)

Power cables need to have an adequate gauge (thickness) appropriate to the current draw. Beyond this, good connectors and proper wiring. If the power cable is serving as an antenna, there are other problems beyond the quality of the cable. Electrical supply, grounding, external forces.

Line-level signals are stiff, and I've seldom had issues with even average patchbay cables. 

Those eensy microphone signals, though, like those produced by medical equipment transducers. Those are susceptible to all kinds of evil. Oscilloscope probes are expensive. Good mic cables. In my work experience (museum, university, live production) this is where the snake oil should be applied, if at all. 

In radio, when the frequency goes up (UHF+), the cables and their combined losses become seriously degrading to power and efficiency. 

Probably diminishing returns, but who doesn't like returns?


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## CeDur (Sep 29, 2021)

I think those audiofile cable manufacturers took the "thickness matters more than length" rule too seriously.


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