# Trip to Los Angeles... advice please



## Zelorkq (Mar 5, 2016)

Hello everybody 

I'm standing in front of a pivot point in my life and want to follow my passion as a film and video game composer (for the last six years I've been a hobby composer and just finished my BSc in Computer Science). I'm from South Africa and currently living in Germany for the past six years and now I'm thinking of moving to Los Angeles to further my composing career for films and video games (wow doesn't that sound original ). 

My first step is to take a 2 (or 3) week trip to LA in April/May and rummage around to see what's what but sadly I don't have many contacts there, worst case 0, best case 2 at most...

Do any of you fellow musicians have any advice on meeting some people in the business, be it composers, directors, developers, etc. to see what's really going on over there? How can I possibly expand my network to include those who live in and around Hollywood? Two weeks is not a lot of time but definitely enough to grab a hold of some people, the vibe, the living style etc.

Anyone willing to meet up ? Events I should visit?

I greatly appreciate all the advice you guys & gals can give! Thank you!


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## willbedford (Mar 5, 2016)

Following this thread, as I'm also planning on visiting LA (although I do have a few contacts there already)


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## Zelorkq (Mar 5, 2016)

willbedford said:


> Following this thread, as I'm also planning on visiting LA (although I do have a few contacts there already)


Let's see if we can get this rolling, glad you're also interested


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## kfirpr (Mar 5, 2016)

Hi me to, planning getting there around may/june


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## chillbot (Mar 5, 2016)

Look for things like these:

http://www.ascap.com/expo

http://www.gdconf.com/

http://www.musexpo.net/musexpoLA16/

http://pmamusic.com/pmc-2015-keynote-speaker-announced/

I know GDC is san fran and the PMA 2016 hasn't been announced yet... but you get the point. There are a lot of these around for whatever you're into if your dates are flexible.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 5, 2016)

And if your bank account is big, haha 
425$ for ascap, 675$ for musexpo, 1600$ for GDC full, wow, I guess all of these events are so expensive, can't be saving money in this business  that's the price (or double the price) of my flight (EU->USA->EU), crazy. EDIT: The Gamescom in Cologne, Germany costs like 30Eur to attend.

Damn I thought GDC was Sep/Nov, would've loved to go there!

Thanks for the list mate, I'll definitely look into them


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## Fab (Mar 5, 2016)

I would find out where Hans lives and camp outside until he either gave me a job or called the police...but its your trip!


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## germancomponist (Mar 5, 2016)

Zelorkq, one good place is "The Daily Pint", Santa Monica.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 5, 2016)

Fab said:


> I would find out where Hans lives and camp outside until he either gave me a job or called the police...but its your trip!


Haha we're both Germans so he'd definitely invite me in for a beer


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## Zelorkq (Mar 5, 2016)

germancomponist said:


> The Daily Pint, Santa Monica.


Speaking of beer.. hahaha
A great place to chill and meet people? No idea where in LA I will be but I might say hi to that place


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## chillbot (Mar 5, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> 425$ for ascap, 675$ for musexpo, 1600$ for GDC full, wow, I guess all of these events are so expensive, can't be saving money in this business



Oops yeah that's a lot. That was a 1-minute search there are others maybe that are cheaper...? But at the same time I'm sure you're not expecting to just show up in LA and be handed work? Hanging out at a pub with other broke and out-of-work composers is not your best option either...


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## Zelorkq (Mar 5, 2016)

chillbot said:


> Oops yeah that's a lot. That was a 1-minute search there are others maybe that are cheaper...? But at the same time I'm sure you're not expecting to just show up in LA and be handed work? Hanging out at a pub with other broke and out-of-work composers is not your best option either...


Haha naw of course not. I'm sure it's way more difficult than that! I'm guessing it takes all kinds of places to meet and network, can't only be going to one type of event.


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## Rctec (Mar 5, 2016)

...and luckily for both of us, I'm going to be in Europe!
When I started out, I absolutely refused to go to L.A. Until I had a job offer. I thought I'd just drown in a sea of other would-be hopefuls. For me London was the place, and sure enough, after doing some independent films there, Barry Levinson came to visit me and offered me a film in Hollywood (that's the short version...)
But it's better to make your mark where they let you have an original voice before coming to L.A. ... Plus, I hate paying for air fares! 
-Hz-


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## germancomponist (Mar 5, 2016)

Rctec said:


> But it's better to make your mark where they let you have an original voice before coming to L.A. ... Plus, I hate paying for air fares!
> -Hz-


+100


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## Zelorkq (Mar 5, 2016)

Rctec said:


> ...and luckily for both of us, I'm going to be in Europe!
> When I started out, I absolutely refused to go to L.A. Until I had a job offer. I thought I'd just drown in a sea of other would-be hopefuls. For me London was the place, and sure enough, after doing some independent films there, Barry Levinson came to visit me and offered me a film in Hollywood (that's the short version...)
> But it's better to make your mark where they let you have an original voice before coming to L.A. ... Plus, I hate paying for air fares!
> -Hz-


Thank you Hans, you just shattered my dream to move to LA haha 
I hope your visit to Europe is one of vacation , that is, uhm, do amazing composers take vacation..?
I appreciate your answer, thank you!

Now I'm not sure what to say. I still can't imagine how over-saturated LA *really* is. I currently live in a medium-sized city in Germany where not much is happening with regards to films or games; online presence is not enough in my opinion and I want to spread out my fingers in the most efficient way possible.


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## germancomponist (Mar 5, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> Thank you Hans, you just shattered my dream to move to LA haha
> I hope your visit to Europe is one of vacation , that is, uhm, do amazing composers take vacation..?
> I appreciate your answer, thank you!
> 
> Now I'm not sure what to say. I still can't imagine how over-saturated LA *really* is. I currently live in a medium-sized city in Germany where not much is happening with regards to films or games; online presence is not enough in my opinion and I want to spread out my fingers in the most efficient way possible.


A bad story, for sure is, that it often is not the main thing how good your music e.t.c. is. Having good friends who know also good friends who work in the indusrty, this seems to be more and more important.
Yeah, our monetary system, as I so often said here and there ... . It dictates more and more ... .


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## Zelorkq (Mar 5, 2016)

germancomponist said:


> A bad story, for sure is, that it often is not the main thing how good your music e.t.c. is. Having good friends who know also good friends who work in the indusrty, this seems to be more and more important.
> Yeah, our monetary system, as I so often said here and there ... . It dictates more and more ... .


"Often" is not the correct word I'd choose there... I'd use the word "mostly" 
Now sadly I don't really have that much experience in this field, but I believe that is true. Friends and networking will get you the gig. Being really talented at your music will make people remember you!


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## germancomponist (Mar 5, 2016)

Exactly what Hans said! So you now know why I shared a link to a beer pub in SM.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 5, 2016)

germancomponist said:


> Exactly what Hans said! So you now know why I posted a link to a beer pub in SM.


I'm guessing you were there a few times before then..? 
You're in Germany though correct? Where if I might ask? How's that treating you?


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## germancomponist (Mar 5, 2016)

I have an internet connection, so I live worldwide. My home and castle is near cologne.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 5, 2016)

I'd also like a castle  - I currently live in Erlangen, Bavaria.
For a while I've been trying to establish myself online as well, but so far I'm not faring as I would have hoped to. I hope I'm not living under the impression that things will suddenly work out once I move to, wherever, and in reality everything's the same


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## germancomponist (Mar 5, 2016)

A good start is to share your music! Here at VI!


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 5, 2016)

Bring a gas mask, you can hardly see across the valley most days. Why would the rich want to Live there?


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## AlexRuger (Mar 5, 2016)

I agree with Hans. I didn't move here until I had a job, and that was the right choice. I wouldn't have survived long if I didn't hit the ground running. 

That said, it's worth coming out for a trip if you can afford it. Maybe line up a few meetings/interviews with prospective clients, or if you're looking for an assistant position, some composers?


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## gjelul (Mar 5, 2016)

A wise person once told me:
"You have already achieved 50% of your aiming success -- you are already here in L.A." I ended up working for the guy for a few years, opening the path to what I'm still doing.

This is not to say that you can't achieve success in other places... Desplat, Yared, Morricone, etc, they'e not L.A. based.


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## chillbot (Mar 5, 2016)

Do what germancomponist says, come to LA and spend a week in a pub drinking beer. Live the LA experience!


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## germancomponist (Mar 5, 2016)

chillbot said:


> Do what germancomponist says, come to LA and spend a week in a pub drinking beer. Live the LA experience!


Interestingly: I made the best friends of the industry in pubs!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Mar 5, 2016)

When I went there a couple of years ago I emailed a few composers and had the chance to meet them. Some are more receptive than others. Unfortunately I never got to visit Remote Control (and Hans was over in Europe for a premiere). Afterwards I tried getting a tech position over the summer but none of the opportunities panned out. Last summer I was able to spend time working tech with a composer but I was first and foremost visiting him as a friend as opposed to as the purpose of furthering my career.

I recommend checking out the SCL events (which you don't need to be a member of to attend). I saw the Trevor Morris tech lecture while I was there and the crowd was all composers so it could be a good networking opportunity if you're looking for assistant or tech gigs.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 6, 2016)

germancomponist said:


> A good start is to share your music! Here at VI!


I occasionally share my work here, and on Soundcloud, Youtube, but that's not really networking atm, more feedbacking haha, many big composers don't share their work that way tho..



InLight-Tone said:


> Bring a gas mask, you can hardly see across the valley most days. Why would the rich want to Live there?


I thought the smog problem was *greatly* reduced in the last decades... That's what happens when too many people get together, form communities and not care for the environment... :/


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## Zelorkq (Mar 6, 2016)

So basically it all comes down to how I get along in the 2/3 weeks in LA to see whether or not this *could* work. 


AlexRuger said:


> I agree with Hans. I didn't move here until I had a job, and that was the right choice. I wouldn't have survived long if I didn't hit the ground running.
> 
> That said, it's worth coming out for a trip if you can afford it. Maybe line up a few meetings/interviews with prospective clients, or if you're looking for an assistant position, some composers?


Getting a job in LA from outside of LA could theoretically take, well, forever, if you don't know the right people... I guess the general reception is very important! Let's see what a trip will tell me of the city! You know of any boards to meet and chill with young directors/clients to plan ahead?


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## Zelorkq (Mar 6, 2016)

gjelul said:


> A wise person once told me:
> "You have already achieved 50% of your aiming success -- you are already here in L.A." I ended up working for the guy for a few years, opening the path to what I'm still doing.
> 
> This is not to say that you can't achieve success in other places... Desplat, Yared, Morricone, etc, they'e not L.A. based.


That's what I heard so often as well :D - And everyone in LA has a different story


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## Zelorkq (Mar 6, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I recommend checking out the SCL events (which you don't need to be a member of to attend). I saw the Trevor Morris tech lecture while I was there and the crowd was all composers so it could be a good networking opportunity if you're looking for assistant or tech gigs.


I forgot about SCL, thanks! Let's see if those are even scheduled for what I had in mind... But actually I don't want to work as an assistant (so basically not being the ghostwriter or uncredited person who does not control what job he gets but gets told what to do ...)
Maybe this is a utopian mindset of mine ..?


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## Sebastianmu (Mar 6, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> Getting a job in LA from outside of LA could theoretically take, well, forever, if you don't know the right people...


As I understood Rctec, he suggested to create something decent somewhere else first, in order to get noticed. Nothing wrong with doing independent films - they have some visibility through festivals. Nothing wrong with student films either, as sometimes they win an Oscar. *cough*life of the others*cough*


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## Sebastianmu (Mar 6, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> ... But actually I don't want to work as an assistant (so basically not being the ghostwriter or uncredited person who does not control what job he gets but gets told what to do ...)
> Maybe this is a utopian mindset of mine ..?


No, that's definitely the right attitude!


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## Zelorkq (Mar 6, 2016)

Sebastianmu said:


> As I understood Rctec, he suggested to create something decent somewhere else first, in order to get noticed. Nothing wrong with doing independent films - they have some visibility through festivals. Nothing wrong with student films either, as sometimes they win an Oscar. *cough*life of the others*cough*


Ay that's basically what he suggested... I'm torn between what to do. I wanted to move out anyways, finished my studies here and now it's time to leave the city. I first thought let's go to Austria, simply because of it's scenery and efficient system, but that move would have nothing to do with my job. So then I thought why not go directly to LA. Kind of two goals in one strikeLet's see


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## Ashermusic (Mar 6, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> When I went there a couple of years ago I emailed a few composers and had the chance to meet them. Some are more receptive than others. Unfortunately I never got to visit Remote Control (and Hans was over in Europe for a premiere). Afterwards I tried getting a tech position over the summer but none of the opportunities panned out. Last summer I was able to spend time working tech with a composer but I was first and foremost visiting him as a friend as opposed to as the purpose of furthering my career.
> 
> I recommend checking out the SCL events (which you don't need to be a member of to attend). I saw the Trevor Morris tech lecture while I was there and the crowd was all composers so it could be a good networking opportunity if you're looking for assistant or tech gigs.



I stopped going to the SCL because of this. Too many young composers trying to hustle gigs. I understand it, I really do, but for me, it spoiled the vibe, all that desperation in the room.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 6, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I stopped going to the SCL because of this. Too many young composers trying to hustle gigs. I understand it, I really do, but for me, it spoiled the vibe, all that desperation in the room.


I still can't imagine how over-saturated it could be..If it is *that* bad, as I've seen a few times now, are there way too many composers and way too few gigs out there..?


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## Ashermusic (Mar 6, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> I still can't imagine how over-saturated it could be..If it is *that* bad, as I've seen a few times now, are there way too many composers and way too few gigs out there..?



Yes.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 6, 2016)

Fantastic that I have chosen that as my dream... I'd say there are too few really good composers, but most directors don't really know the difference between a bad composer and a good composer (or so I would imagine, seeing that music is a different language that most don't understand).
What about game composers? Also over-saturated?


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## Pasticcio (Mar 6, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> Fantastic that I have chosen that as my dream... I'd say there are too few really good composers, but most directors don't really know the difference between a bad composer and a good composer (or so I would imagine, seeing that music is a different language that most don't understand).
> What about game composers? Also over-saturated?


When people say "relationships are the key to success in this industry!" I think they mean it. Instead of thinking "how many gigs are there today?", think "how many gigs are there tomorrow?"


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## Zelorkq (Mar 6, 2016)

Pasticcio said:


> When people say "relationships are the key to success in this industry!" I think they mean it. Instead of thinking "how many gigs are there today?", think "how many gigs are there tomorrow?"


Even less? 
... Well the higher you climb the ladder (as in the better networked you are), the less populated it gets.


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## SillyMidOn (Mar 6, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> Hello everybody
> 
> I'm standing in front of a pivot point in my life and want to follow my passion as a film and video game composer (for the last six years I've been a hobby composer and just finished my BSc in Computer Science). I'm from South Africa and currently living in Germany for the past six years and now I'm thinking of moving to Los Angeles to further my composing career for films and video games (wow doesn't that sound original ).
> 
> ...



You absolutely do not have to move to LA to have a career in writing music. I've had a quick look at your website, and you still look pretty young, so do not expect things to happen quickly - building a career in music takes a lot of time and persistence, and it also takes doing a lot of shitty (music) jobs to get there. I've had a listen to some of your tracks, and it certainly sounds to me like you have the potential to earn a good living out of music, and it also sounds like the music of a younger composer, who still needs to develop a bit, gain some experience, and that comes with time. That does not mean your music is not good, that is not at all what I am saying. If I listen to my tracks from 15 year ago, oh man, ... but anyway, your current stuff is certainly already of a level where it should/could earn you money. 

One thing I've also learnt is that the chosen career within music is not always the one you end up with. I thought I'd be a jazz pianist, and I've ended up making living mostly writing for trailers. And that industry is 99% based in LA, and I'm based in England, and have never been to LA. Isn't Alex Pfeffer based in Germany - and hasn't he made a really good career out of writing for video games, amongst other things? So it is possible in Deutschland. There is a big tv industry in Germany, as well as some game developers, plus some very strong music libraries, and more across the borders in France and England, so opportunities are on your door-step. Probably not in Erlangen (ist glaub ich nicht so gross, oder?), but in the age of Skype, internet etc, connections can be made virtually.

That does not mean you should not go, but maybe just for a fact-finding trip, but make sure you have some people out there you know so it is worth your while, otherwise you might spend two weeks just getting tanned...

If it is of any help, there are two books where Hollywood composers tell of their experiences getting into the industry, and quite often it was by complete chance. Here they are:

 

and this book has some interviews at the back. Alan Silvestri wanted to be a bebop jazz guitarist when he started out (hm, that sounds familiar), and if I recall correctly, his first big break came because someone misread the credits of a film:


Viel Glück!


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## Pasticcio (Mar 6, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> Even less?
> ... Well the higher you climb the ladder (as in the better networked you are), the less populated it gets.


Haha, well yes, maybe. I meant it more as, whereever in the music industry you look it's probably gonna feel over-saturated from the outside. What ever is on the table today is taken by the ones in the network. But if you build and invest in good relationships the opportunities might spark from there, over time.

Anyway, I don't know how the game industry looks in LA, but the game development world seems to grow healthy. More schools/courses is opening up which invites more developers


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## bbunker (Mar 6, 2016)

On the whole 'there are a zillion composers and five gigs thing' - I think it's more important than ever to know thyself. There are a lot of people with a DAW and sample libraries, sure - but each project has one person who is perfect for it. What is it about you specifically that makes you the person for the role? If you have that nailed, then it doesn't matter if literally everyone else on the planet sends in a demo tape, because you're the right fit.

I'd have that conversation with myself before I'd ever move, or even think about moving. What's your elevator pitch? If you're going to visit LA, what's the one sentence you'd say about yourself that tells that director you randomly meet in the sushi bar around the corner from your hotel exactly who you are, what you stand for, what's brought you to this stage, and why you're flying around the world to do this. "Because I really liked writing for some student films" doesn't cut it, because nobody knows why they should care. "I just love Emily Dickinson's poems, so I made a series of Screamo metal short music videos with my friends on them" has a hook - I know these videos don't exist, but I'd kind of like to watch them. And you've got 100% more of a chance of someone you bump into being interested. Maybe their third cousin is doing a Gothic Black Comedy that needs something a bit aggressive for the music. And...presto...you've got a gig.

At the end of the day, if you don't know what your 'pitch' is yet, then maybe it isn't time to fly around the world to try to convince someone of who you are yet. And think of how much awesome living you'll get to do getting that pitch together - maybe you'll even find something even more important. Or just come visit; it's a fabulous place. And a horrible one - but you won't discover that until you've lived here a decade or so. 

So, on LA, Lesson number one on 'the living style' if you've never been:

Arrange ground transportation. Rent a car. Don't depend on public transportation, especially if you're only here a limited time, or all the changes and delays will have you crying in your fancy hotel pillows faster than you can say 'Deutschebahn' three times.

On that topic, realize that southern California is a place where geography matters a lot. If you're staying down in the South Bay (maybe you get one near the Airport for some reason...I won't judge...) and want to take a little trip up the 405 to visit UCLA's library, then you'd best not make any plans for the rest of the day anywhere but Westwood.

Have you thought of doing a Master's in one of the schools around here? It's not cheap for international students, but at least you'd get a sheepskin to hang on the wall when you're done - while you're seeing what it's like to live here, and building connections if you decide to stay in the end.


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## Leo Badinella (Mar 7, 2016)

To the wealth of knowledge already mentioned. I would add that you should pay no attention to what anyone thinks about your trip. There will always be many reasons not to do something and guess what, those are the easiest to agree with. If I was pressed to suggest advice, -which I am not, I would suggest you: 
A) work on your identity and your "elevator pitch" like it was suggested. 
B) have some kind of way to do work right after you arrive (I mean a DAW and a keyboard). 
C) Forget about meeting Jerry Bruckheimer at a coffee shop in Santa Monica, handing in your demo and getting a job that afternoon. Your can definitely meet him and many others but your success will come from meeting new producers, directors, screen writers, actors and *assistants* who are starting up and may be even arriving to L.A, just like you. 
D) have enough money saved for a few months of frugal living. 
E) stand in hollywood blvd, open your eyes and see the double standard. Then make everything in your power to not be discouraged by what you see. People will be flaky, you will meet celebrities and their assistants, talented musicians (realize that no matter what the rest of the world thinks, everyone in L.A who is a musician and makes a living as such is very talented and most of them put in the same insane amount of hours you do, if not more). 
And F) keep in touch.

Good luck with your trip!


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## Zelorkq (Mar 7, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> You absolutely do not have to move to LA to have a career in writing music. I've had a quick look at your website, and you still look pretty young, so do not expect things to happen quickly - building a career in music takes a lot of time and persistence, and it also takes doing a lot of shitty (music) jobs to get there. I've had a listen to some of your tracks, and it certainly sounds to me like you have the potential to earn a good living out of music, and it also sounds like the music of a younger composer, who still needs to develop a bit, gain some experience, and that comes with time. That does not mean your music is not good, that is not at all what I am saying. If I listen to my tracks from 15 year ago, oh man, ... but anyway, your current stuff is certainly already of a level where it should/could earn you money.
> 
> One thing I've also learnt is that the chosen career within music is not always the one you end up with. I thought I'd be a jazz pianist, and I've ended up making living mostly writing for trailers. And that industry is 99% based in LA, and I'm based in England, and have never been to LA. Isn't Alex Pfeffer based in Germany - and hasn't he made a really good career out of writing for video games, amongst other things? So it is possible in Deutschland. There is a big tv industry in Germany, as well as some game developers, plus some very strong music libraries, and more across the borders in France and England, so opportunities are on your door-step. Probably not in Erlangen (ist glaub ich nicht so gross, oder?), but in the age of Skype, internet etc, connections can be made virtually.
> 
> ...


I find it's better to not be at the 100% level yet, learning, getting better and maturing your sound is part of the experience. Makes you eager to become better, striving for perfection but knowing you'll never reach it  Thanks a lot for your feedback on my website and music!
Correct, Erlangen has a population of 100k and most of it is varsity or Siemens, i.e. more technical.
Yeah for sure it's possible from any country, but I was thinking of moving to a different country anyways, so that's why things would come together, I hope. If, however, my trip does not look all too promising I will definitely not move!

Btw those books don't show... ?

Vielen Dank & thanks for the tips


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## Zelorkq (Mar 7, 2016)

Pasticcio said:


> Haha, well yes, maybe. I meant it more as, whereever in the music industry you look it's probably gonna feel over-saturated from the outside. What ever is on the table today is taken by the ones in the network. But if you build and invest in good relationships the opportunities might spark from there, over time.
> 
> Anyway, I don't know how the game industry looks in LA, but the game development world seems to grow healthy. More schools/courses is opening up which invites more developers


I've heard of people getting big gigs in a short amount of time, by chance meeting the right people haha! But I'm not expecting wonders, being patient is it seems very important. But never give up I s'pose 

I believe the gaming industry overtook the film industry already. LA and San Francisco have quite a gaming industry.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 7, 2016)

bbunker said:


> On the whole 'there are a zillion composers and five gigs thing' - I think it's more important than ever to know thyself. There are a lot of people with a DAW and sample libraries, sure - but each project has one person who is perfect for it. What is it about you specifically that makes you the person for the role? If you have that nailed, then it doesn't matter if literally everyone else on the planet sends in a demo tape, because you're the right fit.
> 
> I'd have that conversation with myself before I'd ever move, or even think about moving. What's your elevator pitch? If you're going to visit LA, what's the one sentence you'd say about yourself that tells that director you randomly meet in the sushi bar around the corner from your hotel exactly who you are, what you stand for, what's brought you to this stage, and why you're flying around the world to do this. "Because I really liked writing for some student films" doesn't cut it, because nobody knows why they should care. "I just love Emily Dickinson's poems, so I made a series of Screamo metal short music videos with my friends on them" has a hook - I know these videos don't exist, but I'd kind of like to watch them. And you've got 100% more of a chance of someone you bump into being interested. Maybe their third cousin is doing a Gothic Black Comedy that needs something a bit aggressive for the music. And...presto...you've got a gig.
> 
> ...


Good points you make there! Tbh I'd have to think about that for a bit, thanks 
Well, moving house is quite normal for me. I've moved 8 times in my life, within 25 years that's quite often (only within 2 countries though). I wanted to move to my third country now that I finished my studies anyways...
Rent-a-wreck is good enough for me xD
I didn't want to continue studying, tbh I find music courses are not as good as real life experience. (or, if you meant a MSc in IT... I'd rather work as a developer in LA and use my spare time for networking, that way I'd also be financially safe)

Thanks a lot for the tips, I really appreciate it


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## AlexRuger (Mar 7, 2016)

Yes, the market really is as saturated as everyone says it is. Maybe more so. I saw this first-hand at Berklee when I realized that I was just one of a few hundred kids leaving every semester (not just every _year,_ but every _semester)_ to try and go be a film composer. And that's just one school.

There are, what, nine big A list composers, plus a handful of composers _really_ making a living in TV, film, games, etc. There _is _more work out there than this board often gives credit for, but still--the composers-to-gigs ratio is pretty staggering.

That said, the vast majority of composers I've met either have severely lopsided skill sets, simply aren't good enough, have some personality deficiency that inevitably bites them in the ass, or simply don't have the right mix of personality traits to be able to deal with the quirks (like the ability to be alone for days or weeks at a time without going crazy, and then at least not being the weirdest guy in the room at the premiere).

The longer I do this, the stranger the job seems to me. It's just so odd, requires so many things that are usually at odds with each other, and is taken _so goddamn seriously _by everyone doing it. I take my work seriously, of course, but I've noticed that many young composers who want it more than anything tend to turn people off with that intensity. It comes across as desperate and strange, not devoted and admirable, especially to the unfortunately high number of people who live at the intersection of "being in power" and "having benefitted from nepotism" in Hollywood.

Anyways. If you're not interested in the assistant path, I highly suggest you get some meetings set up with some potential clients--_any _potential clients. No matter what path you choose to take, it's difficult, but completely writing off the assistant path is maybe the most difficult path of them all.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 7, 2016)

Leo Badinella said:


> To the wealth of knowledge already mentioned. I would add that you should pay no attention to what anyone thinks about your trip. There will always be many reasons not to do something and guess what, those are the easiest to agree with. If I was pressed to suggest advice, -which I am not, I would suggest you: A) work on your identity and your "elevator pitch" like it was suggested. B) have some kind of way to do work right after you arrive (I mean a DAW and a keyboard). C) Forget about meeting Jerry Bruckheimer at a coffee shop in Santa Monica, handing in your demo and getting a job that afternoon. Your can definitely meet him and many others but your success will come from meeting new producers, directors, screen writers, actors and *assistants* who are starting up and may be even arriving to L.A, just like you. D) have enough money saved for a few months of frugal living. E) stand in hollywood blvd, open your eyes and see the double standard. Then make everything in your power to not be discouraged by what you see. People will be flaky, you will meet celebrities and their assistants, talented musicians (realize that no matter what the rest of the world thinks, everyone in L.A who is a musician and makes a living as such is very talented, and most of them put in the same insane amount of hours you do, if not more). And F) keep in touch.
> 
> Good luck with your trip!


The easy way out will always be, well, easier and have less hurdles haha. But I'll never come to terms with myself if I chicken out.. If I don't like what I see then it's a different story.
Being young I was planning on connecting with the younger directors/assistants, those that will grow with me, so to speak. It's also about becoming friends and understanding each other, and, to be honest, it is easier if the other person is roughly your age, tho I have to say that most of my friends are older than me 
Haha gotta see that for myself 
You have very valid points there, thanks a lot for sharing them


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## Zelorkq (Mar 7, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> Yes, the market really is as saturated as everyone says it is. Maybe more so. I saw this first-hand at Berklee when I realized that I was just one of a few hundred kids leaving every semester (not just every _year,_ but every _semester)_ to try and go be a film composer. And that's just one school.
> 
> There are, what, nine big A list composers, plus a handful of composers _really_ making a living in TV, film, games, etc. There _is _more work out there than this board often gives credit for, but still--the composers-to-gigs ratio is pretty staggering.
> 
> ...


More and more tips, love it 

Damn.. it would be great knowing how many new directors and developers are out there every semester.

I like to see myself as a well-rounded person when it comes to personality, business aptitude, friendliness, honesty, humour etc, but I know for sure that I have lots to work at! I'm also learning from books to improve myself in various aspects. I'm never happy with myself xD

I'll definitely make sure that I won't be bored on my trip. I'll see what I can get, but I won't let pride get in the way haha. Thanks again man


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## Zelorkq (Mar 7, 2016)

My respect for this forum and its participants has increased even more! A big thank you to all for contributing so far


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## Zelorkq (Mar 7, 2016)

Jumping ahead a bit *if* I should move, would it be a good idea to start working full time in a different field (like in my case IT developer) and then connect with people & go to events in the after hours to network? Less time to connect, but a steady income which can be cancelled if/once the music rolls. Maybe other employees have contacts as well...


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## Andreas Moisa (Mar 7, 2016)

Have your breakfast at Urth Caffé and enjoy your trip!


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## SillyMidOn (Mar 7, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> Yes, the market really is as saturated as everyone says it is. Maybe more so. I saw this first-hand at Berklee when I realized that I was just one of a few hundred kids leaving every semester (not just every _year,_ but every _semester)_ to try and go be a film composer. And that's just one school.



A very good point. The same goes of violinists, cellist, flute players etc...



AlexRuger said:


> That said, the vast majority of composers I've met either have severely lopsided skill sets, simply aren't good enough, have some personality deficiency that inevitably bites them in the ass, or simply don't have the right mix of personality traits to be able to deal with the quirks



Haha, isn't that true of a lot of musicians in general?



AlexRuger said:


> I've noticed that many young composers who want it more than anything tend to turn people off with that intensity.



That is very true. Overeagerness is just not appreciated. It's probably true in most fields, except maybe sports.


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## SillyMidOn (Mar 7, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> Btw those books don't show... ?



Oh, sorry, they show up for me, let me try another way, links to German Amazon:


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## gsilbers (Mar 7, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> Hello everybody
> 
> I'm standing in front of a pivot point in my life and want to follow my passion as a film and video game composer (for the last six years I've been a hobby composer and just finished my BSc in Computer Science). I'm from South Africa and currently living in Germany for the past six years and now I'm thinking of moving to Los Angeles to further my composing career for films and video games (wow doesn't that sound original ).
> 
> ...



You should hit up south Africans in LA. More so in the entertainment biz


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## SillyMidOn (Mar 7, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> Jumping ahead a bit *if* I should move, would it be a good idea to start working full time in a different field (like in my case IT developer) and then connect with people & go to events in the after hours to network? Less time to connect, but a steady income which can be cancelled if/once the music rolls. Maybe other employees have contacts as well...



It may be a good idea to have a job (part-time ish, musicians don't realise how all-consuming proper full-time work can be) in music. You play an instrument, right? Probably several, well then join/start a band, doing weddings, bat/bat mitzvahs, parties, etc, and teach. That way music is supporting music, and you may meet useful people and you don't have to change gear (in your hear) so much to composing, as opposed to if you spent all day doing your IT developing work in front of a computer screen, going home to another computer screen to write music after a long day may not seem so enticing.

Work in a music store - some people have made great connections there.

There are also music libraries, studios, labels etc that are happy to hire unpaid interns, though as plenty of internets come and go, it's hard to get anywhere with that.

Don't forget the whole greencard/visa malarkey.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 7, 2016)

bbunker said:


> If you're staying down in the South Bay (maybe you get one near the Airport for some reason...I won't judge...) and want to take a little trip up the 405 to visit UCLA's library, then you'd best not make any plans for the rest of the day anywhere but Westwood.



You need a fast pass so you can bang down the 110/105 to the South Bay. I can make to just south of Manhattan Beach in 30 minutes from Eagle Rock. Even less if I bike the trails from El Segundo.

I agree with the 405 in Westwood. Worse than any hell. 

You've gotta be here a while to know the side streets/shortcuts. Willoughby, San Fernando, what lane to be in when crossing Highland on Franklin. Waze won't cut it for me. Going 50 through a residential is garbage.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 7, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> Work in a music store - some people have made great connections there.



Or work in post, licensing, editing...anything. I think a music store like GC will drive you nuts. if you can get in at a mom and pop you can keep your sanity.


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## Orchestrata (Mar 7, 2016)

Ek het nie veel om by te dra nie, maar dis lekker om nog 'n Suid Afrikaner hier te sien - voorspoed!


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## pkm (Mar 7, 2016)

givemenoughrope said:


> what lane to be in when crossing Highland on Franklin.



Haha this was literally the first thing I learned driving in LA.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 8, 2016)

Andreas Moisa said:


> Have your breakfast at Urth Caffé and enjoy your trip!


I'll notate that thanks 



SillyMidOn said:


> Oh, sorry, they show up for me, let me try another way, links to German Amazon:


Lol still not working.. Or is it just me?..



gsilbers said:


> You should hit up south Africans in LA. More so in the entertainment biz


I just saw there's a FB page for South Africans living in LA, hope I get in! Great idea thanks 



SillyMidOn said:


> as opposed to if you spent all day doing your IT developing work in front of a computer screen, going home to another computer screen to write music after a long day may not seem so enticing.


That's how it is at the moment as well. Coming home from work (IT) I often *don't* feel like sitting in front of a computer again till midnight! Doing IT as a full time job would be the easiest to get cash, but I think I'll stick to something musical, am a Pianist afterall ...



givemenoughrope said:


> You've gotta be here a while to know the side streets/shortcuts


On a short 2 week trip I think I'll go by GPS all the way 



Orchestrata said:


> Ek het nie veel om by te dra nie, maar dis lekker om nog 'n Suid Afrikaner hier te sien - voorspoed!


Sawubona, howzit man! Ja hey daar is 'n paar van ons op hierdie forum  *As* ek na LA trek moet jy besoek kom


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## sleepy hollow (Mar 8, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> Lol still not working.. Or is it just me?..


Deactivate your adblocker.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 8, 2016)

sleepy hollow said:


> Deactivate your adblocker.


Haha that's the one thanks, working now


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## babylonwaves (Mar 8, 2016)

Andreas Moisa said:


> Have your breakfast at Urth Caffé and enjoy your trip!


Urth in Santa Monica? Yup, that's a great place.


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## SillyMidOn (Mar 8, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> I'll notate that thanks
> 
> That's how it is at the moment as well. Coming home from work (IT) I often *don't* feel like sitting in front of a computer again till midnight! Doing IT as a full time job would be the easiest to get cash, but I think I'll stick to something musical, am a Pianist afterall ...



Exactly, if you do gigs or teaching instead, you have a lot more flexibility time-wise, not anything like as much money, but you also have to get enough pieces written, so it's a question of balancing time to write/developing your career, with making enough money to survive. If you are young and have no other mouths to feed you can live off thin air though so it's fine to live like that for a bit. Everything gets so much more complicated once kids are involved.


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## iaink (Mar 8, 2016)

Onverwagse om die taal hier te sien, op hierdie forum ... 

Sal jy by die "ASCAP film scoring workshop" aansoek doen? Dit's uitstekende - ondersoek dit, as jy weet nie daarvan nie. Ek dink die sperdatum binnekort is.


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## Jono (Mar 8, 2016)

Literally just fell across this thread after booking my accomodation for August if anyone is about and willing to meet up/take me to work for the day :D

J


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## Mike Greene (Mar 8, 2016)

givemenoughrope said:


> . . . what lane to be in when crossing Highland on Franklin . . .


Ha! Bonus points if you can learn to make a left onto Franklin from Las Palmas (just east of Highland.)

I'll offer a few random thoughts:

First, it's certainly true that you don't need to be in Los Angeles. However, the odds of meeting people do go up when you live here. The first record I ever played on was produced by the guy living in the apartment next door. He didn't know any other keyboard players, so he asked me. The first commercial I ever scored was a gig I got because the director was one of the players in a weekly poker game I played in. I have met countless producers and directors at my kid's schools, some of whom have hired me. Mind you, I got lucky with those, but living here does have it's advantages.

In answer to your question of whether the composing market is saturated . . . the answer is about as loud of a yes as I can give you. A very, very low percentage of people who want to be composers will ever be able to make a decent living at it. Especially today, when budgets are slashed and libraries have replaced a significant number of gigs where composers used to get hired. Couple that with the fact that nowadays, just about anybody with Garage Band can call themselves a composer, the composer "supply" has grown exponentially, while the composer "demand" has shrunk.

With that in mind, I wouldn't make too many decisions now about what you will and will not do. Right now, you say you don't want an assistant gig. It wouldn't surprise me if two years from now, you not only change your thinking on that, but you find yourself frustrated on how difficult it is to even _get_ an assistant gig. The composing world is insanely competitive.

To that end, I'll tell you my story. I didn't come to L.A. to be a composer. I came to be a rock star. I never became a rock star, of course, but other opportunities presented themselves, and my policy was to never say no. People asked if I'd like to co-write songs with them. Yes! People asked if I'd play on their demos. Yes! People asked if I'd make tracks for their rap demos. I didn't know nothin' about rap, but . . . yes! A guy asked if I'd write music for his Hot Wheels commercial. Yes! How about this TV pilot? Heck, what do I know about post scoring? Nothing. But . . . yes!

That's not to say that you should adopt my philosophy and be, as my wife puts it, a whore. In my case, I like it all, so even though it's not what I dreamed would happen, it's been fun. But that's definitely not for everyone, so I can respect that some people are more discriminating in what they really want to do. Still, it's worth thinking about, because "making it" is really, really tough, and I'd be careful about which doors you close.

In fact, that reminds me of a time where I was writing a Barbie jingle and I needed someone to sing the demo. There are two studios here, and the guy in the other studio was doing song demos of an aspiring female singer who had a great voice, so since she was already in the building, I walked over and asked if she'd like to make an easy $150 for the demo, plus union scale (which could amount to thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars in residuals) if Mattel liked her voice and kept her vocal track.

She said no. She considered herself an artist and didn't want to be, as she put it, "jingle girl." I explained that jingles are anonymous, and doing then wouldn't prevent her from getting a record deal, but she wasn't interested. And as you might guess, like 99.9% of singers doing demos hoping to make it, she never did get a record deal.

That's not to say that she'd be a successful session singer today if she had taken the opportunity, of course. But I'll bet she wishes she could be given the chance again to at least try. Something to think about.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 8, 2016)

Mike Greene said:


> Ha! Bonus points if you can learn to make a left onto Franklin from Las Palmas (just east of Highland.)



That's one of those "I could but I'll never need to do that." However, that little stretch of LP is my "secret" free parking for the Bowl.


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## prodigalson (Mar 8, 2016)

givemenoughrope said:


> However, that little stretch of LP is my "secret" free parking for the Bowl.



Not anymore it's not...


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## SillyMidOn (Mar 8, 2016)

iaink said:


> Onverwagse om die taal hier te sien, op hierdie forum ...
> 
> Sal jy by die "ASCAP film scoring workshop" aansoek doen? Dit's uitstekende - ondersoek dit, as jy weet nie daarvan nie. Ek dink die sperdatum binnekort is.



Damn, Boykie, I need to get my wife to translate...


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## jononotbono (Mar 8, 2016)

Mike Greene said:


> Ha! Bonus points if you can learn to make a left onto Franklin from Las Palmas (just east of Highland.)
> 
> I'll offer a few random thoughts:
> 
> ...



A great post. I am ready to be a Musical whore. Not so much a Street Walking type... But never say never! haha!


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## dannthr (Mar 9, 2016)

I have been living in LA for about 5 years, it's difficult to put in words what I think the VALUE of living in LA has been for me, but I'll try. However, I believe it's fair to say that almost everyone has their own varied experiences and most certainly people are not necessarily as scattered in their goals or focus as I often am.

I didn't quite pick LA, I moved out here for a girl, things didn't work out and I stayed because I had a pretty steady gig in education. Now I don't, so what I like or don't like about LA has been front and center in my mind for a while now because it's the last real anchor as I look out to opportunities anywhere in the world.

It may seem strange to talk about weather in a thread about working and networking, but it's an easily over-estimated quality that LA is known for and one that I am not so excited by: you see, I grew up and spent most of my life in Colorado. In LA, you have fairly temperate weather and depending on where you put down stakes, you have pretty easy access to free ocean as far as the eye can see. But there was a primal stimulation that I experienced in the dynamic weather of Colorado that is missing completely from LA.

An interesting example, about a year before I moved to CA, I was working on a game, and the company asked for background music to a frozen landscape. So I created a piece to fit a snowy, blizzardy, frozen landscape and sent it off. Later that week, after reviewing the piece, they came back and said my piece sounded too much like mountains, they were hoping for icy tundra. It was remarkable, because a frozen mountain had been in my brain while writing it--thinking intimately of the snowy mountain landscape that was outside my window 4 months of the year.

I think it's worth mentioning weather because it affects our creativity--dynamic changes in weather can have a profound impact on our mental stimulation--and LA's weather is flat and featureless. Slightly windy clear blue days with no clouds in the sky for weeks on end, or slightly hazy hot days with no clouds in the sky for weeks on end, it can be mind numbing. My first year was actually spent in Irvine, CA which was precisely 70 degrees every day without much deviation for months and months on end--it was bizarre and very numbing.

When I go back to CO to visit family, I realize how much I miss the naked sky at night with so many stars shining through the cold crisp and ultra clean air. I miss the closeness to nature that was all around me and part of my daily experience and I miss how much that was an important creative element. It could be nostalgia, I'm definitely sure some of it is, I know I am wistful for the days of immense and invincible optimism for my own future.

I have yet to have a gig that had anything to do with living in LA. I've even been contracted by people who live in LA whom I have never met in real life. The Internet plays such a huge role in this business, it's almost silly.

LA is dirty, LA is too big, I have to drive too much to get anywhere, LA is too expensive, and LA is too crowded--have you ever tried recording nature, forget about it in LA, a plane flies over the mountains every 2 minutes!

My future is wide open, and my focus is on getting work, and for the most part, I don't care where in the world that might be if it's the right work. But despite all of this, there is a legitimate reluctance to leave LA.

LA is undoubtedly a creative capital in the US.

Let me clarify:

One of the things I repeatedly like about LA is how easy it is to meet creative and incredibly skilled people. People specifically working in entertainment and who are interested in talking shop. Living in CO for me was incredibly isolating, telling people I am a composer or a sound designer kind of makes people who are not in a creative field go "oh, that's interesting, did you work on Halo?" No, no, no, no I didn't work on Halo--the only video game you can call to mind.

I go to weekly figure drawing workshops where I encounter Imagineers who worked on Disney animated features that were formative and influential on my wanting to work in entertainment. I meet people that work at Pixar, who did visual effects on cheesy sci-fi 80s movies, or who work day in and day out to prepare scores or orchestrate TV shows, I've met TV producers, engineers, actors, directors, etc., etc., etc.

It's not the opportunity to network and get jobs from these people that thrills me--it's that these are MY people, these are CREATIVE people, these people UNDERSTAND the creative challenges that I face because they face them too, and we acknowledge that in each other and are interested in each other for it.

To say that there isn't opportunity lying in wait here would be false--there is an abundance of opportunity, but it's very noisy--very, very noisy. And sometimes the biggest opportunities are not anywhere near what you think they might be and they don't always come from the place you think--after all, I was personally invited by Hans Zimmer to visit RC Studios because of posts I made here, and that definitely didn't turn out to be a real opportunity despite what one might think going into that situation.

Real opportunity is everywhere now because the Internet is everywhere now.

If you want to move to LA, do it because you have to live in an 80 mile city full of creative people, not because you think you'll get a job from it. Because that isn't necessarily true--it has definitely not been true for me.


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## JohnG (Mar 9, 2016)

Mike Greene said:


> I didn't come to L.A. to be a composer. I came to be a rock star. ...as my wife puts it, a whore.



To us, Mike, you are both a rock star _and_ a whore. Best of both worlds.


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## JohnG (Mar 9, 2016)

If you do come to Los Angeles, by the way, be sure to have a beard and vape and play uke/bongos. Just to blend.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 9, 2016)

Dan makes good points, which remind me of some other points:

Location, location, location. To me, the main reason (besides weather) for being in Los Angeles is that you're more likely to meet contacts in your daily life. like with my examples of my next door neighbor record producer, or poker playing director. But it's important to be in the right parts of L.A. People who work in the "industry" (as it's called here) tend to live in pretty defined areas. I've drawn a purple boundary:






"Industry" folk almost always live on the Westside, the San Fernando Valley, and around Burbank. That's not to say there won't be directors or producers or composers outside the purple boundary, and certainly exceptions abound, but it will be *much* less frequent to find them in Orange County, South Bay, South L.A., Pasadena, or even downtown L.A..

The other thing I'm reminded of is that in order to actually meet people, you need to get out there. There aren't any "Director Expos" you can attend, where Spielberg and the gang are wandering around, wondering where they can meet composers. Instead, these people have kids in schools, and being writers and directors and producers, they tend to have flexible schedules, so they spend a lot of time at the schools. Or at the dog park, or yoga class, or the gym, or softball leagues, or wherever.

I wouldn't buy a dog (or have a kid) just for the sake of increasing my odds of meeting industry people, mind you, and in fact, the odds of meeting a potential client are minuscule in any individual example. Instead, just find things that interest you that involve not being holed up in your studio.

Also, slightly off topic, in this age of the internet, it's easy to do everything by email and ftp. It's efficient. But it's less personal, and ultimately, this business is about relationships. If a client is local, I'll make a point of hand delivering stuff from time to time. With out of town clients, I've even flown to them for no other purpose than to meet in person. A little face time goes a long way. (Especially if you're blessed with a babe-magnet face like mine!) For better or worse, composers are rarely hired based solely on who has the most talent. A larger factor is often "who would I want to work with?"


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## Ashermusic (Mar 9, 2016)

I came to LA from Boston in 1972. I was a singer-songwriter and aspiring film/tv composer and that meant LA or NYC and I got an offer to accompany a singer so I came out with a paying gig.

Staying in Boston to try to achieve my goals simply was not an option then. Nowadays, it would be because of the internet and I might have decided to stay in Boston and commute when necessary to NYC, which i would have preferred as with the exception of the weather, which is not my highest priority, Boston is a much nicer place to live unless you are an outdoorsy kind of a guy, which I am not. And LA was a hell of a lot nicer and more affordable in 1972 than now. Plus, I could pay and sing in nightclubs and get staff writing contracts with publishing companies to make a basic living, and all that is pretty much gone now.

Visit LA? Fine, but think long and hard about the totality of what your life is before you move here.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 9, 2016)

Also keep in mind that a place like LA is such a huge and varied place that everyone's experience is different...more like whatever you can make it. I loved the weather when I moved here in '04 and a couple years in it became the Twilight Zone...but now it is a bit more varied (at least for LA): hotter and more humid, cool and windy. Also, less smog than 1972 I would imagine. Less crime, more traffic(?), great food, even less of a center (a lot of filmmakers live Northeast of me in Eagle Rock proper). it's what you make it. I would visit long term if I were thinking of moving here now.


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## AlexRuger (Mar 9, 2016)

dannthr said:


> I have been living in LA for about 5 years, it's difficult to put in words what I think the VALUE of living in LA has been for me, but I'll try...



Not going to quote the whole thing, but are you me? So many similar thoughts. Let's grab a beer, man.


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## chillbot (Mar 9, 2016)

Mike Greene said:


> I've drawn a purple boundary:


Your boundary looks like either a heart... or Ohio... not sure. But you JUST caught me. I feel new life and new verification! I am just in the purple in the farthest north and east on your boundary. Win!


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## AR (Mar 9, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> I'd also like a castle  - I currently live in Erlangen, Bavaria.
> For a while I've been trying to establish myself online as well, but so far I'm not faring as I would have hoped to. I hope I'm not living under the impression that things will suddenly work out once I move to, wherever, and in reality everything's the same


Hey Zelorkq!

I live in a remote little village right in the middle of the Black Forest in Southwest Germany. It's quite, the weather is great, the air is very good AND what's very important to me, the water is so pure and tasty, you'll never going to buy any water in any supermarket. Things you won't have in L.A. (Sure, my neighbours are a Olympic Gold winner, and the others are scientific professors, and a few houses down the street is living a Michelin star cook, but that's it). 

Guess what? Out of this little village, me and my team, we're working on Hollywood films, German films, Videogames, Shortfilms/Studentfilms (as a learing project for my assistants). We've worked on projects with people like Atticuss Ross or maybe you know Eko Fresh here in Germany? And how so? We have a pretty decent internet connection of 400mbit/s. And that stuff isn't expensive. Skype is for free. What else do you need? - Talent. And being social.

Director's often visit us here (we have a guestroom with bath and pretty soon sauna) for a week or so. They're taking a break if schedule allows them not to concentrate on the filmedit. My wife is a pretty good cook and everyone who visited us here said something like "that was a good vacation combined with work".

I actually don't know any composers here in Germany, although I shared some credits with few on German films. I'm a true underdog here (did not attend any film school) and still I'm working like Desplat, Mechaly, Yared, out of my home and getting job requests.
My wife and me we always talk about moving to LA, but as long as it is possible for us to stay connected over internet we're going to stay here. 

The key to the point where I am now was an advice some set-runner who worked on "The Life of the Others" has said to me: "First, you're going to score every possible stupid studentfilm you'll get. And you do it for free. Maybe a few years later, you will make your first C-movie. And luckily you'll get paid a little bit. Not much. But after that, you'll see. Either you are good and the projects getting better and better or you will quit the job and do something serious."

Zelorkq. That's pretty much old skool. I think many great composers went through this path. Whether you're living in LA or Timbuktu, I think none of the composers is born with a golden spoon as it happens to be his/her father is someone like Jerry Bruckheimer.


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## ryst (Mar 9, 2016)

I've lived in LA for nearly 6 years now. First 6 months in NoHo, and the rest of the time in WeHo. It's been pretty awesome so far for my wife and myself. I could go on and on about what I love about this town but I know if I didn't move here, I'd miss out on so much. The networking has been incredible for me. Even my crossfit gym is filled with directors and producers and I'm actually one of the few musicians that work out there so it's been great to say the least.

My only advice is to value your money because if you don't, it will go to someone who values it more. LA may be expensive but if you're smart, you can do more than just survive here. Good luck with your trip!


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## dannthr (Mar 10, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> Not going to quote the whole thing, but are you me? So many similar thoughts. Let's grab a beer, man.


Definitely, man! You going to be at GDC?

On that topic, since the OP mentioned video games, no better place to make your stake in games than the Game Developers Conference every year in San Francisco--a week long conference with opportunities to Network, Inspire, and Learn (if the ads are to be believed).

@Mike Greene Dude, location is real, I'm just outside of your lasso, but a lot of the places INSIDE the lasso are either complete dumps or frackin' expensive! (One or the other)

I remember an ad for an apartment renting $600/mo on the West Side if you're willing to share a bedroom with 3 people.


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## karelpsota (Mar 10, 2016)

Also, its important to point out the LA cost of living.
This was quite a surprise when I moved from France three years ago.
Be prepared to spend at least $2K/month (rent, car insurance, health insurance).

Like other people mentioned, you ideally want a solid gig before making the move.

For me, I did a two month internship assisting a score mixing engineer. This allowed me to dip the toe in the water - feel what LA was about.
After this internship I went back to France to finish my education and think really hard about my career. I worked religiously on my mixing/software/people skill, then bought a one-way ticket to Composer-Land.

Note that composing was my goal, but I entered the realm through a more technical job: score mixing.
I think the scientific jobs are easier to get than artistic ones.


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## ghostnote (Mar 14, 2016)

Very good read guys.



AR said:


> I live in a remote little village right in the middle of the Black Forest in Southwest Germany. It's quite, the weather is great, the air is very good AND what's very important to me, the water is so pure and tasty, you'll never going to buy any water in any supermarket.



Gotta love the Black Forest, I grew up in the north. Living up there for quite some time definetely changes the way you see nature. As a kid I always had this deep respect towards nature, knowing that I'm just a guest.. What a joy visiting those lovely places by Bike during summer.

HOWEVER, to stay ontopic: I would lie if I would say I never thought of moving to L.A. The thing that bothers me is this voice saying "you're not good enough to compete". On top of that there is all this other stuff like money, part time job, visa, studio equipment, appartement/flat-sharing that has to be sorted out. All things to consider before going there and getting work as an assistant without pay and/or work on the first 10 short films for free.

I hope you have a plan Michail! I whish you all the best.


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## AR (Mar 14, 2016)

Dude, which town? I'm seated in Dobel.


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## ghostnote (Mar 14, 2016)

AR said:


> Dude, which town? I'm seated in Dobel.


Freudenstadt. But I moved to Karlsruhe.


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## AR (Mar 14, 2016)

See...the world is sooo small. But I never thought that a "neighbour" ought to be a fellow composer. Doesn't have to live in LA


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## ghostnote (Mar 14, 2016)

Haha. Yes, the world is small.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 23, 2016)

... So another week goes by and I'm finally answering again. Thanks a lot for all contributions and the invaluable information so far! I've learned a ton!

I have decided not to visit or move to LA for now. Various reasons, private & business alike. But eish you people have really opened my eyes, thank you 




SillyMidOn said:


> Exactly, if you do gigs or teaching instead, you have a lot more flexibility time-wise, not anything like as much money, but you also have to get enough pieces written, so it's a question of balancing time to write/developing your career, with making enough money to survive. If you are young and have no other mouths to feed you can live off thin air though so it's fine to live like that for a bit. Everything gets so much more complicated once kids are involved.


I hear you. I'm not much of a performer or Piano teacher tho haha but I'll get by. I'm still young, so I only have one mouth to feed, tho this one is always hungry 




iaink said:


> Sal jy by die "ASCAP film scoring workshop" aansoek doen? Dit's uitstekende - ondersoek dit, as jy weet nie daarvan nie. Ek dink die sperdatum binnekort is.


Haha let's stick to English then so others can read as well  I already had a look at those workshops online and they do seem like a great place to learn-by-doing. But as I mentioned I'll be staying in Europe for now, thanks boet 




Mike Greene said:


> First, it's certainly true that you don't need to be in Los Angeles. However, the odds of meeting people do go up when you live here. The first record I ever played on was produced by the guy living in the apartment next door. He didn't know any other keyboard players, so he asked me. The first commercial I ever scored was a gig I got because the director was one of the players in a weekly poker game I played in. I have met countless producers and directors at my kid's schools, some of whom have hired me. Mind you, I got lucky with those, but living here does have it's advantages.
> 
> In answer to your question of whether the composing market is saturated . . . the answer is about as loud of a yes as I can give you. A very, very low percentage of people who want to be composers will ever be able to make a decent living at it. Especially today, when budgets are slashed and libraries have replaced a significant number of gigs where composers used to get hired. Couple that with the fact that nowadays, just about anybody with Garage Band can call themselves a composer, the composer "supply" has grown exponentially, while the composer "demand" has shrunk.
> 
> ...


Very insightful Mike, thanks a lot!! I have already made up my mind what to do, roughly, kind of :D
For me it's all about finding a balance. Taking EVERY job might work for some people, but I guess I'm too picky, but you still have to look at things realistically. Experience is something that will tell you what is realistic, and at a young age you're often blinded by inexperience, passion, not knowing what the real world is like etc. Gotta focus , thanks a lot for your insight!


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## Zelorkq (Mar 23, 2016)

dannthr said:


> I have been living in LA for about 5 years, it's difficult to put in words what I think the VALUE of living in LA has been for me, but I'll try. However, I believe it's fair to say that almost everyone has their own varied experiences and most certainly people are not necessarily as scattered in their goals or focus as I often am.
> 
> I didn't quite pick LA, I moved out here for a girl, things didn't work out and I stayed because I had a pretty steady gig in education. Now I don't, so what I like or don't like about LA has been front and center in my mind for a while now because it's the last real anchor as I look out to opportunities anywhere in the world.
> 
> ...


Another great post, thanks a lot for your input!! I see myself as a very balanced person, that's just who I am. Yes I do have a dream, but I always look at things realistically, I prefer smaller cities/towns over metropolises, I don't want to work my a$$ off every day just to live off of breadcrumbs, I am not a crazy musician that can delve into this field for EVER, day in and day out, I want a balanced family life, etc. Your words were very insightful, thanks for taking your time, I'm sure you've helped many others here as well 




JohnG said:


> If you do come to Los Angeles, by the way, be sure to have a beard and vape and play uke/bongos. Just to blend.


Hahaha! Damn, I don't have much of a beard or play the uke/bongos. You just figured out why I won't be moving to LA :D


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## Zelorkq (Mar 23, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I came to LA from Boston in 1972. I was a singer-songwriter and aspiring film/tv composer and that meant LA or NYC and I got an offer to accompany a singer so I came out with a paying gig.
> 
> Staying in Boston to try to achieve my goals simply was not an option then. Nowadays, it would be because of the internet and I might have decided to stay in Boston and commute when necessary to NYC, which i would have preferred as with the exception of the weather, which is not my highest priority, Boston is a much nicer place to live unless you are an outdoorsy kind of a guy, which I am not. And LA was a hell of a lot nicer and more affordable in 1972 than now. Plus, I could pay and sing in nightclubs and get staff writing contracts with publishing companies to make a basic living, and all that is pretty much gone now.
> 
> Visit LA? Fine, but think long and hard about the totality of what your life is before you move here.


Thank you Jay  Indeed things have changed a lot in recent decades (tho I can't tell personally as I'm still young haha). Gotta go with the times. The "moving to LA" aspect slipped quickly for me... and the "visiting LA" slipped slowly after. Not to say that's a bad thing, I had a few interesting sessions




givemenoughrope said:


> Also keep in mind that a place like LA is such a huge and varied place that everyone's experience is different...more like whatever you can make it. I loved the weather when I moved here in '04 and a couple years in it became the Twilight Zone...but now it is a bit more varied (at least for LA): hotter and more humid, cool and windy. Also, less smog than 1972 I would imagine. Less crime, more traffic(?), great food, even less of a center (a lot of filmmakers live Northeast of me in Eagle Rock proper). it's what you make it. I would visit long term if I were thinking of moving here now.


I guess you can get accustomed to any living environment. But if it's really "you" (or "me" in my case) is another question. I've experienced living in a remote little mining-town in the desert where I grew up, to living in a crime-metropolis, to now being in a bicycle-city in the green Germany. All good  - Let's see where we'll end up 




AR said:


> Hey Zelorkq!
> 
> I live in a remote little village right in the middle of the Black Forest in Southwest Germany. It's quite, the weather is great, the air is very good AND what's very important to me, the water is so pure and tasty, you'll never going to buy any water in any supermarket. Things you won't have in L.A. (Sure, my neighbours are a Olympic Gold winner, and the others are scientific professors, and a few houses down the street is living a Michelin star cook, but that's it).
> 
> ...


Hey man, thanks a lot for taking your time to comment as well! Your post is most insightful! As I mentioned above I'll be staying here for now. Well it's seems like you people have a great balance of fun & work, kudos to you  I believe the internet connection with people will increase even more in the years to come, so theoretically there wouldn't be any reason to move to LA for you (or me). Haha is there a way of getting in contact with your folks?? Or just saying hi to your studio, grabbing a beer..?


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## Zelorkq (Mar 23, 2016)

ryst said:


> I've lived in LA for nearly 6 years now. First 6 months in NoHo, and the rest of the time in WeHo. It's been pretty awesome so far for my wife and myself. I could go on and on about what I love about this town but I know if I didn't move here, I'd miss out on so much. The networking has been incredible for me. Even my crossfit gym is filled with directors and producers and I'm actually one of the few musicians that work out there so it's been great to say the least.
> 
> My only advice is to value your money because if you don't, it will go to someone who values it more. LA may be expensive but if you're smart, you can do more than just survive here. Good luck with your trip!


Money makes the world go round, sadly  - Heck one of the reasons I'm not going to visit for now is money haha.




karelpsota said:


> Also, its important to point out the LA cost of living.
> This was quite a surprise when I moved from France three years ago.
> Be prepared to spend at least $2K/month (rent, car insurance, health insurance).
> 
> ...


Ay LA is deemed one of the most expensive cities in the world. Maybe I'll think about another trip at a later stage, but for the time being I'll stay here. If I'm not mistaken many would-be-composers don't actually compose much once they live in LA... 




Michael Chrostek said:


> Gotta love the Black Forest, I grew up in the north. Living up there for quite some time definetely changes the way you see nature. As a kid I always had this deep respect towards nature, knowing that I'm just a guest.. What a joy visiting those lovely places by Bike during summer.
> 
> HOWEVER, to stay ontopic: I would lie if I would say I never thought of moving to L.A. The thing that bothers me is this voice saying "you're not good enough to compete". On top of that there is all this other stuff like money, part time job, visa, studio equipment, appartement/flat-sharing that has to be sorted out. All things to consider before going there and getting work as an assistant without pay and/or work on the first 10 short films for free.
> 
> I hope you have a plan Michail! I whish you all the best.


I think there are way more voices that secretly say "no" than "yes"  But you are right those issues were also on my list, amongst other things. My plan was way too short-sighted, and after all of these great posts I've got more of a realistic plan what I'll do, sort of anyways, thanks


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## AR (Mar 23, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> Thank you Jay  Indeed things have changed a lot in recent decades (tho I can't tell personally as I'm still young haha). Gotta go with the times. The "moving to LA" aspect slipped quickly for me... and the "visiting LA" slipped slowly after. Not to say that's a bad thing, I had a few interesting sessions
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, sure, you can step by and visit us if you can come by car otherwise that would be a world trip  Are you on Facebook?


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## Trombking (Mar 24, 2016)

> Freudenstadt. But I moved to Karlsruhe.


Komme aus Karlsbad bei Karlsruhe. Wohne allerdings jetzt in Mannheim.


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## Sebastianmu (Mar 25, 2016)

Trombking said:


> Komme aus Karlsbad bei Karlsruhe. Wohne allerdings jetzt in Mannheim.


Free sprekken... schtonk!


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## sleepy hollow (Mar 25, 2016)

Sebastianmu said:


> Free sprekken... schtonk!


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## gjelul (Mar 25, 2016)

Just bite the bullet, go to L.A., explore it, see it for yourself and make a decision. At the end of the day each one has a very personal experience as a basis for a decision.


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## Zelorkq (Mar 28, 2016)

AR said:


> Yes, sure, you can step by and visit us if you can come by car otherwise that would be a world trip  Are you on Facebook?


I don't own a car.. It'll take a while with my bicycle haha, I just had a look on maps. If I'm in the region I'll see if I can summon up a transportation device, thanks bro!
Why yes indeed I am on Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/michail.nowak


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## Zelorkq (Mar 28, 2016)

Trombking said:


> Komme aus Karlsbad bei Karlsruhe. Wohne allerdings jetzt in Mannheim.


Not many people living in Bavaria I see haha


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## Zelorkq (Mar 28, 2016)

gjelul said:


> Just bite the bullet, go to L.A., explore it, see it for yourself and make a decision. At the end of the day each one has a very personal experience as a basis for a decision.


Already made up my mind for now  but visiting LA is still on my agenda in the future..


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## AR (Mar 28, 2016)

Trombking said:


> Komme aus Karlsbad bei Karlsruhe. Wohne allerdings jetzt in Mannheim.


That's so funny, how many of you guys live in Southern Germany. And I thought, I'm just a lone wolf here


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## AlexRuger (Apr 20, 2016)

Zelorkq said:


> Yes I do have a dream, but...I don't want to work my a$$ off every day just to live off of breadcrumbs, I am not a crazy musician that can delve into this field for EVER, day in and day out, I want a balanced family life, etc.



Then I seriously suggest you think twice about doing this for a living. As time goes on, the reality for at least the foreseeable future (the next few decades) of both the music and film industries is that unless you're _incredibly _lucky, independently wealthy, or benefit from nepotism, you will work your ass off every day just to live off of breadcrumbs. And balancing a family life with the demands of being a composer...jeez. No way. Just thinking about it exhausts me. I've met a few who do it but it takes superhuman writing speed.


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## gsilbers (Apr 20, 2016)

chillbot said:


> Your boundary looks like either a heart... or Ohio... not sure. But you JUST caught me. I feel new life and new verification! I am just in the purple in the farthest north and east on your boundary. Win!



he left me out cold in pasadena :(


btw- seems like mar vista area is the new hot spot. thats were all those streaming companies are setting shop. 
amazon, yahoo, google, etc. 
housing prices went through the roof. 
well, they went up everywere but there is specially steep.


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## gsilbers (Apr 20, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> Then I seriously suggest you think twice about doing this for a living. As time goes on, the reality for at least the foreseeable future (the next few decades) of both the music and film industries is that unless you're _incredibly _lucky, independently wealthy, or benefit from nepotism, you will work your ass off every day just to live off of breadcrumbs. And balancing a family life with the demands of being a composer...jeez. No way. Just thinking about it exhausts me. I've met a few who do it but it takes superhuman writing speed.



or not paying for housing.


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## olajideparis (Apr 20, 2016)

As somebody who was born and raised in LA and moved away after 30 years, I will tell you that LA is an amazing place that has a very unique and particular social structure and protocol. What I mean by that is that it takes a very refined set of social skills (and a tough skin) to reap the benefits of life in LA networking wise. Be prepared to put yourself out there and play the long game. I would recommend having a specific list of people with whom you want to connect; research and reach out to them and take the time to develop relationships naturally. Of course that means you will have to have some way of supporting yourself while you do that, but get creative the US still is the land of opportunity and if you are crafty enough you will find a way to make money (in or out of music). All that being said, I have a number of colleagues who live outside of the US and do very well working for American clients though not necessarily in film, but plenty in trailers and videogame music so I can say that it is quite possible to develop many of those relationships without actually ever living in the US if you are strategic. In my case I already had a decent amount of relationships and clients before leaving LA, though if I had it to do again I would have developed a deeper and stronger network before leaving.

Read Richard Bellis' book "The Emerging Composer," he has some great practical advice in there on composers moving to LA and the realities of doing that. I think Deane Ogden has also written an article about this on Scorecast Online, check that out as well. 

Good Luck!

Best,
O.P.


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## Zelorkq (Apr 20, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> Then I seriously suggest you think twice about doing this for a living. As time goes on, the reality for at least the foreseeable future (the next few decades) of both the music and film industries is that unless you're _incredibly _lucky, independently wealthy, or benefit from nepotism, you will work your ass off every day just to live off of breadcrumbs. And balancing a family life with the demands of being a composer...jeez. No way. Just thinking about it exhausts me. I've met a few who do it but it takes superhuman writing speed.


I guess that depends; there are other ways of earning a decent living from music... But I hear you, things are getting tougher, as if they weren't tough enough already in the business... I always have a fallback strategy -> I have a BSc and some working experience and I'm still young, so I can continue that route and compose only as a hobby if things really don't work out for me.



olajideparis said:


> As somebody who was born and raised in LA and moved away after 30 years, I will tell you that LA is an amazing place that has a very unique and particular social structure and protocol. What I mean by that is that it takes a very refined set of social skills (and a tough skin) to reap the benefits of life in LA networking wise. Be prepared to put yourself out there and play the long game. I would recommend having a specific list of people with whom you want to connect; research and reach out to them and take the time to develop relationships naturally. Of course that means you will have to have some way of supporting yourself while you do that, but get creative the US still is the land of opportunity and if you are crafty enough you will find a way to make money (in or out of music). All that being said, I have a number of colleagues who live outside of the US and do very well working for American clients though not necessarily in film, but plenty in trailers and videogame music so I can say that it is quite possible to develop many of those relationships without actually ever living in the US if you are strategic. In my case I already had a decent amount of relationships and clients before leaving LA, though if I had it to do again I would have developed a deeper and stronger network before leaving.
> 
> Read Richard Bellis' book "The Emerging Composer," he has some great practical advice in there on composers moving to LA and the realities of doing that. I think Deane Ogden has also written an article about this on Scorecast Online, check that out as well.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot for your insightful story! Tbh I'm not *only* interested in film music, heck, I actually prefer game music. I'm sure I'll find my way eventually, be it in Europe only or intercontinental.
I'll have a look, thanks man


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## Waywyn (Apr 21, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> Isn't Alex Pfeffer based in Germany - and hasn't he made a really good career out of writing for video games, amongst other things? So it is possible in Deutschland. There is a big tv industry in Germany, as well as some game developers, plus some very strong music libraries, and more across the borders in France and England, so opportunities are on your door-step.



Since I was mentioned, I thought I jump in on this! To be honest in my entire life there was ONE situation that I was rejected to cowrite on a Hollywood movie because the director wanted someone living in L.A. and being able to quickly meet and personally talk about the work and edits! Anyway, I am fine with it, since on the long run I don't want to work in the movie industry anyway! I mean I would do it, but more project wise and not constantly! Don't get me wrong, I love music and it is my absolute passion, I also know that success isn't possible without blood, sweat and tears, ... but the more I look at it, I am happy with what I do (which is video games and also trailer/license music - ironically for a L.A. based company) and I really don't want to exchange the happy life I am living with a stressy career which results in 18+ hours work days and literally no time for my daughter/friends or party life!

... so to make it short, yes it is possible to have a decent living/career outside of L.A. (working for L.A.)!


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## Greg (Apr 21, 2016)

LA has so much more to offer than being a pawn in the industry. My favorite part about this place is how much amazing nature surrounds it. The incredible national parks that California / American Southwest have are all an easy road trip away. The city life is FULL of creatives and people doing awesome things with their lives, much different than the midwest where I am from. I find it very inspiring. I Would honestly say that the nature and non-industry experiences around here have positively impacted my work a lot more than I imagined.


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## Rctec (Apr 21, 2016)

... I haven't read all the 6 pages of posts, but I just found this provocative piece by my friend (and no, he's not my agent) Richard Kraft:

AN EMPLOYEE EXPECTS TO BE PAID. 

AN ENTREPRENEUR EXPECTS TO INVEST. 

I believe there is a fundamental and primarily difference in perspectives that divides film composers into two distinct camps: 

Employees vs. Entrepreneurs. 

Of course someone with the Employee mindset is most likely to focus on the compensation they are receiving for their labors. It makes sense that they would complain about low wages, insulting offers, stressful working conditions, being asked to work for free, ungracious bosses, and sometimes even faced with requests to "invest" in a project (by losing money to cover expenses). 

Someone with the Entrepreneurial mindset would view things through the extremely different filter of "potential opportunity."

They would be weighing the risks, gambles and outlay of resources (time, energy, and money) against the potential upsides and downsides of those speculative bets. 

An employee expects to be paid. An entrepreneur expects to invest. 

Employees tend to reap the benefit of guaranteed income for their labors. 

Entrepreneurs run the risks of losing time and money in exchange for a potentially larger jackpot (of money, power and control). 

In my opinion, film composing is now a fairly horrible career path for most possessing the Employee mindset. 

Entree-level jobs tend to pay little or nothing. 

And, there is a dearth of decent paying film jobs for those who have not established a name for themselves in the industry (which tend to be the Entrepreneurs whose gambles paid off). 

With so few movies being made in proportion to the number of composers seeking to score them, the film industry tends to play into the strengths of risk-taking, long-viewed, gambling Entrepreneurs. 

And the film industry tends to work heavily against those composers with more of an Employee outlook who aren't gamblers, investors or risk-takers. 

Examples of composers and musicians with entrepreneurial mindsets are Penka D Kouneva who crowd funded an orchestral recording of her music. Brilliant.

Bear McCreary is a master at creating content for social media as well as composing, recording and producing compelling demos that land him new work.

John Debney used his entrepreneurial spirt to invest in sales materials to help land him the critical and commercial success of THE JUNGLE BOOK. His investment and gamble in a demo lead to his Oscar-nominated score to THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST.

Composers like Rob Simonsen and Joe Trapanese work tirelessly in creating and producing The Echo Society concerts to premiere new works by themselves and others. 

Jeff Beal built HOUSE OF CARDS IN CONCERT to extend reach and focus of his music.

Brian Tyler has built his brand through promotional videos and a strong social media presence. He is now about to premiere a concert of his works at Royal Albert Hall.

Elmer Bernstein started the first label devoted to the re-recordings of classic film music.

Violinist and contractor Mark Robertson and musician Noah Gladstone created the Hollywood Chamber Orchestra providing a new resource for shows like the upcoming BLACKFISH LIVE IN CONCERT.

Alan Silvestri invested in equipment and demoed his way into getting to work with Robert Zemeckis on ROMANCING THE STONE which lead to BACK TO THE FUTURE and FOREST GUMP. Silvestri continued with that entrepreneurial mindset founding his own successful winery.

Composers Miriam Mayer and Adonis Aletras created and run this very forum.

And Hans Zimmer has used his brilliant business acumen to redefine so much in our industry

Would love to hear about others whose entrepreneurial spirt has served them.


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## dgburns (Apr 21, 2016)

Rctec said:


> ... I haven't read all the 6 pages of posts, but I just found this provocative piece by my friend (and no, he's not my agent) Richard Kraft:
> 
> AN EMPLOYEE EXPECTS TO BE PAID.
> 
> ...



I'm gonna have to bite.

My first trip to LA was last year-fully paid for by the studio so I could meet the team and get some face time.I've avoided going there hearing so many horror stories(and falsely believing the horror).What I found was a place where media is a mature industry,part based on historical structures (distribution,production know-how etc) and part greed/fear.
I was pressured into exploring LA by my colleagues many times.I've thought long and hard about the risk/reward.I decided on a philosophy that I learned from my gigging/band days.One member was always trying to get us to open for a big act.I was always trying to make us the big act.I said to my colleagues here at the studio that if and when I went to LA it would be by "walking in the front door,not by way of the back door"as I always thought being a warmup act was just that-skulking in through the back door.
I have been proven right by my reckoning so far.

I live in a secondary media market in Canada,so for the last twenty years have found myself often living in the "Wild West" so to speak.We had to create everything because no industry existed here,except for some animation scene that we never really interfaced with as we didn't draw(we are audio ppl after all).

We created our own standards and workflow and had to hunt down work by way of mouth,repeat clients and any means we felt would be worth the risk.Our first major investor was a man by the name of Jim Mackie,who made his fortune in the telephony business,literally out of the garage of one the founders by the name of Terry Matthews.Terry is a billionaire who founded Mitel and March Networks out of nothing.I actually worked at Mitel as a student for a few months.

We succeeded not knowing any better.We always had the feeling we lived "without a net" so to speak,no one was going to give us anything unless we went out after it.

Jim Mackie had retired from telephony,and his motto was " I helped build the pipe,now I want to shove something through it!"

We were a startup company in the downtown core,just about living on fumes when he decided to do a five movie indie deal.That got us to an animation company in town that saw our work and hired us for a show.Unfortunately,Jim died suddenly of cancer three movies in,and we found ourselves floating in the ocean with no lifeboat.We did a lot of corporate work to keep the lights on,and risked doing demos and such on promising tv shows for budding people in our area.Somehow I believe that when people keep their feet moving,good things happen.

At last count,I've scored music in over 800 episodes of tv,some film,and don't know where the time flew.Always open to a new idea,always open to throw my efforts behind any new venture,provided I can see the way to the finish line.I am a careful investor,and still we have been burnt many times when a risk did not pan out.I don't ever regret ever going out on a limb for an opportunity.

I am now in search of my next big adventure.I am not sure what it is going to be.This is not a money thing-it is a life thing.I need to feel alive.Risk does that to you.However for the right person in the right way,LA can be a place where I could take my career to the next level.

Proper Risk for a real reward-no guarantees,count me in.


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## Zelorkq (Apr 22, 2016)

Wow, so much to think about with these new posts. Wisdom overflow 

Sadly I cannot share any wise stories, but this thread has turned out to be extremely helpful! Interested to see what others say.


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## AllanH (Apr 24, 2016)

Rctec said:


> ... I haven't read all the 6 pages of posts, but I just found this provocative piece by my friend (and no, he's not my agent) Richard Kraft:
> 
> AN EMPLOYEE EXPECTS TO BE PAID.
> 
> ...



Having founded and operated a few startups, my perspective is this:

I really agree with the “entrepreneurial” vs “employee” mentality. Being an employee is easy – do what’s expected and hope that you’re not let go at some point.

The biggest challenge with the entrepreneurial path is to continually evolve. While it sounds easy to focus on “opportunity” and “the long term”, it’s exceeding difficult to do so in the shorter term. Specifically, to survive as an entrepreneur one has to innovate as matter of doing business. Otherwise, one becomes stale and yesterday’s news. In a highly creative business like composing, that has to be incredibly difficult. I can think of only a few (e.g. Hans Zimmer) who constantly changes and out-performs his prior work.

One benefit of an entrepreneurial approach is the ability to scale. If one can generate enough business to get others involved, the team becomes an accelerant that quickly can many-double the money made. It does come with the risk of taking on a team and managing that.

I think it starts with being good at some aspect of the creative process and working hard to get an opportunity to show-case it.

My (at times expensively earned) two cents.

Allan


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## dannthr (May 7, 2016)

Savvy entrepreneurs also evaluate RoI with some scrutiny--their ability to evaluate the potential in an opportunity is skewed by their own experience for better AND worse.

LA is simply ONE venue for opportunity--there are many.


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## dgburns (May 9, 2016)

AllanH said:


> Having founded and operated a few startups, my perspective is this:
> 
> I really agree with the “entrepreneurial” vs “employee” mentality. Being an employee is easy – do what’s expected and hope that you’re not let go at some point.
> 
> ...



You've got the entrepreneur mindset.People are what drives a business imho.Such an x factor to the whole equation.
You know,as to the hardship of creation ,one thought strikes me.It seems to me the hardest adjustments I've had to make were jumping from differing media types,not so much from working within one ,say film.Obviously working on film is no picnic,but there is this tendency of ours to create workflows,and put people/procedures in place to help.It might not help with the creative,but you certainly aren't starting from zero.You've got the experience of past projects to draw upon.Even if the music is nothing like what you worked on previously.Add to that,you might in fact be itching to break out of the music style you were deep into for the last year.It strikes me as harder to switch from tv to film,where the boundaries of how the media is created can be vastely different and schedules for example are totally different.


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