# Win7 vs Win10 (again)



## chillbot (Jan 10, 2017)

Sorry for another thread I've searched and I know there are a bunch on here.

What I'm looking for is what is the best _long-term_.

I'm looking at getting a maxed-out new main rig (for Sonar) that will last me the next 4-5 years at least. VisionDAW still highly recommends Win7 Pro at this time. I will post their reasoning possibly (I asked for permission to quote emails) but basically it boils down to they don't trust the forced updates in Win10. They claim Win7 Pro is still the best for PC-based DAWs.

What I'm afraid of.... this happened many years back... there was a sample library I bought that would only work on a certain version of Kontakt. That version of Kontakt would only work in a certain version of Sonar. That version of Sonar would only work in a certain version of Windows. That version of Windows was not supported by my computer. I ended up buying a brand new computer just to run a sample library. So I hesitate to go with Win7 if a similar situation could occur a few years from now.

Win10 Enterprise sounds great... I only saw a bit of it mentioned in this thread:

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/is-there-any-way-to-prevent-windows-10-auto-update.58294/

I don't mind paying a monthly fee... is anyone actually doing this? Does it work? Any thoughts about Win7 vs Win10 long-term?


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## rgames (Jan 10, 2017)

I'd think of it like this: if you don't want to add anything new to that machine then Win7 is fine. So, for a slave that's only ever going to run what you put on it right now, sure, stick with Win7.

But for a master DAW I don't see how you can stick with Win7 much longer. So then the question becomes: when do you switch? If you're putting a new master DAW together then that's a logical time to do it. Much better than getting set up in Win7 and switching in a year or two.

I also found that Win7 performs *slightly* better but it's not enough to choose it over Win10. At least not for my setup.

I just read today that the latest beta version of Win10 allows you to disable updates for a month and prevent driver updates altogether (the main cause for concern): https://www.cnet.com/news/windows-10-will-allow-you-to-defer-updates/

I haven't found any performance problems with the updates but they are annoying because they keep resetting preferences (like what program opens what file). And when the updates are downloading and/or installing, yeah, it's a pain because your system has a tendency to freak out a bit until you reboot.

rgames


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 11, 2017)

Win 10, definitely. I'd echo everything that Richard says, and add that my son wanted Win 7 on his new i5 build, but eventually it proved simply impossible. I had clean W7 install disks with SP1 and we started with a blank SSD, but - for whatever reason - the mouse and keyboard did not work in the OS, only the BIOS. Googling confirmed that it's a thing now, for some reason. I could have persevered for another few days, but we decided to simply give up and go for Win 10. It installed simply, the rig goes like greased lightning and he's delighted.

Win 7 is already getting to be difficult to maintain, I can't imagine the ongoing problems in 5 years time. Maybe the performance for us is 2% better - it doesn't matter. It's a choice of constantly swimming with, or against the tide.

One additional bit of crystal ball gazing when considering future proofing - right now I wouldn't get a processor / mobo that doesn't support Optane. It may not prove to the the revolution that was once predicted, but my hunch says that this is the way things will go over the next few years.


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## Pietro (Jan 11, 2017)

I've never had the preferences reset issue really. But I noticed something obvious. My two desktop machines were upgraded from 7 and 8.1. They perform ok and I'd never go back, but on the one that used to be 7 some features (not really important ones, like the Spotlight, that changes your lock screen once in a while) don't always work. On my surface pro 4, I had 10 preinstalled. It's perfect.

So maybe some of the issues get carried from your previous installations, just like mine did.

I'd say, since Microsoft is planning to make it possible to disable updates for longer periods, it is best to just go with W10. It's actually a great system.

- Piotr


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## chillbot (Jan 11, 2017)

Thanks... very much appreciate the responses. Here is the stance from VisionDAW:

"Currently Windows 10 is the long term OS but in its current incarnation it is definitely not better than Windows 7. Win7 was really built for the user to have control over the OS so we are able to tweak it to make it stable and perform great for pro audio use. Win10 is exactly opposite where Microsoft controls the OS and will update when and what it deems necessary, tweaks your OS the way it thinks would be best for you, and adds services and monitor as it sees fit. All of this may be good for the general public, but for a pro audio system you depend on the system working day-in and day-out just like it did yesterday. I can tell you one of our test Win10 machines did an update (they never tell you what or when it will update) and when you go to Shutdown or Restart the ONLY option is to “Update and Shutdown” or “Update and Restart” I opted to “Update and Restart” and one of the updates/patches hosed the OS and it was no longer bootable and I couldn’t for the life of me fix it – so I had to reinstall. Anyway, we are currently not installing Windows 10 for any clients until there is a Windows 10 release we feel comfortable building a pro audio OS on. If you do want to go with Win10 we can certainly install it for you with the tweaks we think are the best, but there are certain things you can’t turn off in Win 10 (updates, report call outs, remote system mods and configs, etc.) There are a couple of things we would highly recommend if you do go Win10 - create frequent backups of your OS drive in case you need to roll back and have a backup main drive handy. We are hoping one day Microsoft will have a version of Win10 which gives the pro user more control over the OS, and when that day comes (crossing fingers) we will be all over Win10."

So in the end it's my choice and I guess you've convinced me to go Win10 but I'm not really thrilled about it...

I did a ton of searching on Enterprise and I guess your average consumer just can't get it? Anyone have any more info about it?


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## tokatila (Jan 11, 2017)

Well, if you want your processor to be Kaby Lake or newer there is no choice.
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/windows-7-wont-work-intels-current-next-gen-cpus/


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## wcreed51 (Jan 11, 2017)

> Microsoft controls the OS and will update when and what it deems necessary

Isn't this basically how OS X has been for years?

Anyway, if you don't want updates, don't connect your system to the net...


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 11, 2017)

Chili, as Mike said the next update of W10 pro allows you to keep more control over driver updates.


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## synthnut1 (Jan 15, 2017)

I bought a PC laptop w/win10 that had what I wanted and was able to add on later for things I wanted extra ....I figured I could get rid of Win 10 and load up Win 7 Pro ......Problem was that the processor and other items in the computer would not run at all on Win 7 Pro , and the workaround to do it was just not worth it ....Make sure you check the system and processor you want to use , and be sure you can use it with Win 7 before venturing any further ....My laptop just surfs the web for now for short periods of time , till I get more reports on Win 10 ..... I'm another one who doesn't want somebody else telling me when and how to update my computer ...I bought it , I want the say so over it .....


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## chillbot (Jan 15, 2017)

I think I may wind up going dual-boot with both Win7 and Win10...


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## JohnG (Jan 15, 2017)

wcreed51 said:


> Isn't this basically how OS X has been for years?



Not at all. You can stop OS X updates and / or choose when to update.

I don't really blame Microsoft at one level (though I have suspicions). To give them the benefit of the doubt, they end up supporting, often for free, a huge world-wide installed base. They are constantly assailed by hackers and saddled with blame for users' incompetence: failure to update security, turning off security or firewalls, and so on. So from that perspective I am sympathetic to their desire to wrest control back over updates.

That said, it is obvious that they are trying to build their databases on customers and I really detest that.


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## Covent Garden (Jan 16, 2017)

Just my 2 Cents ...
I've built a lot machines since Win 3.11  and if you do know some tricks Windows is fine. In former times MAC was much better as a DAW Machine but now it's comparable. Both systems have their stength and weakness. Well if you choose a PC with actual hardware I'd choose Win 10. Why? Win 7 Support will end in a few years. Win 10 will be developped into a better DAW Machine, because the new driver model API with extreme low latency was implemented since the first version started. BUT: It is now part of the sound devs to program their drivers (sound interfaces) with optimized code to get benefits of the new API which indeed has not happened yet.

To get rid of the "Update" problem: Google "Windows Update Mini Tool". It's a small tool (even protable - no installation required), which offers total control of updates and upgrades. BUT!(!) Win 10 Pro is required, because the Home edition is tweakable too but you have to edit registry which requires a good knowledge about system architecture (Upgrade forced in Home versions!). Then you can deactivate (!) Updates with windows onboard tool gpedit. Then run Windows Update Mini Tool and choose what updates you want to download and/or install. No automatic downloads. No automatic installations. No automatic reboots. Like Win 7. A dream comes true ... But it's always a good idea to backup your system before any installtion and to install security updates is also highly recommended ...

Cheers - Markus


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## AlexRuger (Jan 16, 2017)

Just tested out Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB on some old hardware and it's great so far. It's sooooo lean. It feels like Windows 7 with a haircut and a shave.

I think it's the best way to go from here, especially for people running multiple computers.


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2017)

AlexRuger said:


> Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB



LTSB does sound cool, Alex, but it is certainly MIGHTY lean! Not even a browser, it appears, if this post is accurate:

found it here: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...in-metro/ab8dbbe5-ef56-47c0-98a0-4a9a7d9763b8

"Your last question about when Edge will be introduced to Enterprise leads me to wonder if you are aware of how the "Long Term Servicing Branch" system for Windows 10 Enterprise is meant to work.

Just to clarify: Windows 10 Home users get updates continuously. Windows 10 Pro customers have the ability to choose between Windows Update or Windows Update for Businesses as well as delay updates.

Windows 10 Enterprise for larger volume licence customers and (probably) Windows Intune subscribers can choose as they prefer for different devices. On installation/deployment time, Enterprise customers can _choose between two deployments _of Windows 10 Enterprise edition to handle updates:


CB (Current Branch) is just referred to as Windows 10 Enterprise and is available on MSDN and on the TechNet eval center. This version has Edge, modern apps and the ability to have rapid updates or slower updates determined by the Enterprise IT department or policy settings. Can use Windows Update, Windows Update for business or WSUS. Can delay updates. 
LTSB (Long Term Servicing Branch) *is a different ISO file*, referred to as Windows 10 Enterprise 2015 LTSB. This is a different deployment almost altogether, where you at the moment do not get either the Edge browser or Modern apps because you need Windows to be as stable in feature-set and updates as possible for mission critical applications. The LTSB edition will have its feature set be updated semi-annually and ONLY receive critical updates or security fixes in the interim. Updated as Windows 7/8 was, using tools like Config Manager or WSUS. Can block updates. 
Update: cleaned up terminology a bit, added info about updates for editions."


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2017)

is that correct^^

??


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## AlexRuger (Jan 17, 2017)

It includes Internet Explorer, but not Edge. Doesn't matter what I use to download Chrome 

As long as you have a business, which Chillbot I'm sure you do, you can get Windows Enterprise. The process is a bit dense, I think by design to keep those who aren't "in the know" (ie IT professionals) on Home or Pro, but long story short...

You can download a copy of LTSB to evaluate for 90 days here. You might have to sign up with a bunch of stuff, FYI. If you decide to evaluate, download that ISO and use the instructions here to make an installer on a flash drive. Last night it took me about an hour to complete the whole process.

If you decide to use it full time, you have to buy it through what Microsoft calls a partner. Doesn't matter which one. I was recommended to buy it here and don't see a reason to do any more research (I've done a lot), so when I'm ready to dive in I'll be buying it there.


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2017)

Thanks Alex!


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## EvilDragon (Jan 17, 2017)

I have absolutely no issues with W10 Pro here, after the initial spat with iLok (figures)... Anyways Anniversary update patched that up and I'm one terribly happy camper. Best Windows ever!


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2017)

Ok -- I'm going to pester you some more!

Here are my questions:

1. Pretty sure you said you have to perform a clean install -- can you confirm?

2. How much does this "get you?" Is it mostly recovered RAM, or CPU, or is it more a sense of far fewer services and overall less clutter running?

3. What other motivations do you have for doing it? 

I like less clutter etc. and of course most of us like fewer unexpected (and even unobserved) updates. My issue is that I have four PC slave computers right now working pretty well with Windows 10 and, naturally, don't relish reinstalling Kontakt, VE Pro, iLok etc. etc. etc.

So I'm kind of wondering whether this is something to do when replacing the older PCs or to actively take arms and by opposing, end them. As they say.


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## AlexRuger (Jan 17, 2017)

1. Clean install, yes. Think of it as a separate version of Windows.
2. For me, it all comes down to the ability to turn off updates, and that the only updates it receives are security patches. The fact that it's cleaner is nice, but I can get Pro pretty lean too so that aspect isn't a huge deal, just a minor plus. 
3. None. It all comes down to updates. My biggest concern with my rig is stability. Issues tend to crop up at the worst possible times, so in addition to having backups and contingency plans in place, I like to remove the possibility for issues from the source. 

If your rig is good for you, then it's good for you. I've personally been heavily looking into it because I'm planning a new PC build and would also like to update my VEPro machine to Win 10 when I do that. The fact that I can license up to 5 machines with LTSB makes it perfect for me. I'll just do a week of big installs and then I'm set until I want to fuss with it again.

If you replace a machine or two at once, then yeah that might be a good time to adopt LTSB. But if it's working, it's working, so don't worry about it.


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2017)

Thanks again, Alex. Super helpful.

John


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## Gunvor (Jan 17, 2017)

Interesting, I just ordered a new machine but choose to have it delivered with a downgrade to win 7 pro. Not having any control over the updates that are being released is mainly why I chose win 7 atm.

But can always install win 10 pro later down the road.

Has anyone here chosen to upgrade to win 10 recently, if yes what was the motivation to do so?


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2017)

Gunvor said:


> Has anyone here chosen to upgrade to win 10 recently, if yes what was the motivation to do so?



Fair question; for me, there were problems I had so I pulled the trigger.

Otherwise, the motivation would be future-proofing. That said, the "future" may not be so far away. I thought I read a post by somebody around here who had trouble installing a purchase on 7. But it could have been on some other forum.


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## Gunvor (Jan 18, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Fair question; for me, there were problems I had so I pulled the trigger.
> 
> Otherwise, the motivation would be future-proofing. That said, the "future" may not be so far away. I thought I read a post by somebody around here who had trouble installing a purchase on 7. But it could have been on some other forum.



Thanks for your reply John, I will go with 7 for now. Upgrade is on the horizon though.


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## chillbot (Dec 20, 2017)

So I went with Win10. And all was good.

And then last night I got hit with the creators update and all is no longer good.

Just as a start had to reinstall drivers for my midi interfaces, reinstall drivers for my transport controls on my mixers, had to re-authorize both stylus and omnisphere, and sound forge is no longer working. And Sonar crashed today for the first time in months and months. And who knows what else I will find as I continue to work.

This may be a bigger problem than I originally thought for me, now that Sonar is not going to be supported and I was kind a hoping to use Sonar for another 2-3 years to be honest.

Is there still not any workaround or a way to turn off auto-updates in Win10??


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## chillbot (Dec 20, 2017)

https://gadgets.ndtv.com/laptops/features/how-to-disable-windows-10-automatic-updates-728049

Think any of this looks safe to try? VisionDAW told me there was no way to disable auto-updates in Win10 and I believe them over some random internet article... but still it looks legit... or am I too naive?


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## chimuelo (Dec 20, 2017)

I recently upgraded my Live DAW with Windows 10.
Mostly because I’ve got time off and my new Scope 7 drivers were completed.
I hated 10 when I first tried it but had the developers send a list of tweaks with the new drivers and it’s really nice and lean.
Windows 10 is only 14 bucks on eBay so probably get a few more and do all my PCs.
I like being behind the curve, but due to new optimized drivers the time seemed appropriate.
Got my ancient DSP Sampler working, and even the Moog, ARP, Roland, CAT and Prophet DSP Synths are really nice. Don’t need them but what a sweet Christmas.

I can actually disable more in Win 10 than I could in 7/8.1 rigs.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Dec 21, 2017)

AlexRuger said:


> Just tested out Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB on some old hardware and it's great so far. It's sooooo lean. It feels like Windows 7 with a haircut and a shave.
> 
> I think it's the best way to go from here, especially for people running multiple computers.


LTSB Does look like a serious system build having played with it myself


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Dec 21, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> I recently upgraded my Live DAW with Windows 10.
> Mostly because I’ve got time off and my new Scope 7 drivers were completed.
> I hated 10 when I first tried it but had the developers send a list of tweaks with the new drivers and it’s really nice and lean.
> Windows 10 is only 14 bucks on eBay so probably get a few more and do all my PCs.
> ...


This is also true 
I do like how tweakable it is...


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Dec 21, 2017)

chillbot said:


> https://gadgets.ndtv.com/laptops/features/how-to-disable-windows-10-automatic-updates-728049
> 
> Think any of this looks safe to try? VisionDAW told me there was no way to disable auto-updates in Win10 and I believe them over some random internet article... but still it looks legit... or am I too naive?


You can defer feature updates as for 365 days and there are ways to stop Windows updates

I have used gpedit to make plenty of changes and if you really got into Windows you can use powershell to do almost everything to your system

I use gpedit and Services for turning off things like Cortana (which I passionately hate) to the same degree I cannot stand Siri


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Dec 21, 2017)

chillbot said:


> https://gadgets.ndtv.com/laptops/features/how-to-disable-windows-10-automatic-updates-728049
> 
> Think any of this looks safe to try? VisionDAW told me there was no way to disable auto-updates in Win10 and I believe them over some random internet article... but still it looks legit... or am I too naive?


What you are talking about here is not Windows Updates (security and fixes), but Feature updates and those can be deferred

You need to go into *Settings > Updates and Security > Windows Updates > Advanced > Defer updates* and choose the number of days...the longest being 365

http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-tip-temporarily-delay-the-fall-creators-update/

https://superuser.com/questions/119...ndows-10-creators-update-version-1703/1199780

Let me know if you have any issues


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## synthnut1 (Dec 21, 2017)

All this hoop jumping just makes me want to go back to Apple when my W7 machine is kaput..... I’ve really been happy with W7......


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