# UK sees sense over Syria



## AC986 (Aug 31, 2013)

But sadly David Cameron did not. And neither does Obama by the look of it.


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## jamwerks (Aug 31, 2013)

How much do you know about the subject?


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## Sounds-and-images (Aug 31, 2013)

Just remember we did nothing about Rwanda. A holocaust that could have been prevented. 

There are reasons why action should be taken. These are humanitarian.

Ignoring it would be wrong.


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## AC986 (Aug 31, 2013)

Firing missiles into a country from a ship parked off it's coast is really the most preposterous nonsense anyone could think of. Very glad that the UK is staying away from this one. 

The good thing from the UK pov is that it has proven Cameron to everyone with sense and observation already knew; he's an idiot.


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## jamwerks (Aug 31, 2013)

I got my answer


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## Sounds-and-images (Aug 31, 2013)

adriancook @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> Firing missiles into a country from a ship parked off it's coast is really the most preposterous nonsense anyone could think of. Very glad that the UK is staying away from this one.
> 
> The good thing from the UK pov is that it has proven Cameron to everyone with sense and observation already knew; he's an idiot.



I agree that is the wrong way to do it, but we do need to do something. And yes Cameron is a pollock, but no worse than the idiot that took us in to Iraq.


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## bupper (Aug 31, 2013)

Any action without a UN resolution is ILLEGAL!!!! that is the law, now the last time the US obeyed laws they helped to put in place was...........NEVER. They are again going to flaunt international law (& it is certainly not over any humanitarian reason). The UN inspectors have left Syria & their report will be published in a couple of weeks but action will have taken place before that (apparently within 3 days). Now if there is really to be a meaningful discussion about the whole subject, it would be wonderful if the politicians actually grew a pair & say that NO action could be taken without the proper authorizations!


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## bupper (Aug 31, 2013)

> And yes Cameron is a pollock, but no worse than the idiot that took us in to Iraq.


he he
the idiot that "took us into Iraq" is actually the UN ambassador to the middle east :(


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2013)

Nonsense. A country does not give up its sovereign rights when it joins the UN. Clinton used NATO to intervene in h former Yugoslavia thankfully.

The problem is, the UN will never pass a resolution condemning the action of those states in the Middle East and authorizing military response because of fear. And if the General Assembly did, the Security Council's members like Russia and China will veto it.

If Hitler and Stalin were active today and doing exactly what they did, the UN would not pass a solution condemning them and authorizing military responses.

The UN is fine for raising funds for sick people but as a "peacekeeping force". it is a farce.


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## jamwerks (Aug 31, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> Nonsense. A country does not give up its sovereign rights when it joins the UN. Clinton used NATO to intervene in h former Yugoslavia thankfully.
> 
> The problem is, the UN will never pass a resolution condemning the action of those states in the Middle East and authorizing military response because of fear. And if the General Assembly did, the Security Council's members like Russia and China will veto it.
> 
> ...



Very well said !


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## Sounds-and-images (Aug 31, 2013)

bupper @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> > And yes Cameron is a pollock, but no worse than the idiot that took us in to Iraq.
> 
> 
> he he
> the idiot that "took us into Iraq" is actually the UN ambassador to the middle east :(




Damn iPad auto spell LOL.. 

Yes that is what worries me! He ran away to spend time on a yacht somewhere.. One day we might actually get someone useful in a political position...


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## bupper (Aug 31, 2013)

> A country does not give up its sovereign rights when it joins the UN



he he, but what possible threat does Syria post to US sovereignty? a massive facepalm there. 

there is none PROVEN or even PRESUMED


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## bupper (Aug 31, 2013)

ok, I'm getting out of this because I'm a composer & I see that not all composer are open minded!


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## onebluesphere (Aug 31, 2013)

Bombing for peace is like screwing for virginity.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2013)

bupper @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> > A country does not give up its sovereign rights when it joins the UN
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If Assad gasses his own people, he will not hesitate to gas others. If other extremist elements like Hezbollah see that there is no international response for doing so, they will also do so with impunity and that very definitely potentially affects us and other allies.

When you see someone do something heinous to someone else, you should always say to yourself, "he will do it to me too, given the opportunity.


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## bupper (Aug 31, 2013)

if you believe that, then do the legal thing & wait for the UN reporters findings! They would have said by now if there was proof that Assad did this. They waited for the report before attacking & killing Saddam Hussein even though there was NO proof & they did it any way. Hmm


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2013)

bupper @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> if you believe that, then do the legal thing & wait for the UN reporters findings! They would have said by now if there was proof that Assad did this. They waited for the report before attacking & killing Saddam Hussein even though there was NO proof & they did it any way. Hmm



As I have said, the UN will NEVER do that. If Hitler and Stalin were alive today and doing exactly what they did, there would be no resolution authorizing military action from the UN. 

They are good at raising money for sick people but as a "peacekeeping" body, they are a total joke.


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## bupper (Aug 31, 2013)

the whole Iraq episode with Colin Powwell & his test tube of "proof" has gone down in history as one of the biggest political lies in history. It was invented from start to finish! The rest of the world is starting to come around to the decieving politics of the white house. The world will maybe be a better pace for it!


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## mark812 (Aug 31, 2013)

jamwerks @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> How much do you know about the subject?



How much do you know about propaganda and history?


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2013)

bupper @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> the whole Iraq episode with Colin Powwell & his test tube of "proof" has gone down in history as one of the biggest political lies in history. It was invented from start to finish! The rest of the world is starting to come around to the decieving politics of the white house. The world will maybe be a better pace for it!



You are correct, it did real damage.

That is why the president was wise to send all the info out to Congress and force them to either sign on to it or not.

But if you use that as an excuse to never trust evidence presented then you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If that had happened in 1941 you would all be speaking German or Italian.


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## bupper (Aug 31, 2013)

well, on that case, the proof should be brought by the OFFICIAL UN inspectors don't you think & not invetnted on a whim & so any attack before that is.........hmmm.....rubbish


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2013)

bupper @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> well, on that case, the proof should be brought by the OFFICIAL UN inspectors don't you think & not invetnted on a whim & so any attack before that is.........hmmm.....rubbish


 The UN could not find its ass in the dark with two hands and a flashlight.


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## bupper (Aug 31, 2013)

an answer full of perspicacity & totally devoid of reasoning!


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2013)

bupper @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> an answer full of perspicacity & totally devoid of reasoning!


Give me some examples when the UN played an effective role in the last 30 years.


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## bupper (Aug 31, 2013)

In Iraq proving there were absolutely NO chemical weapons


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## chimuelo (Aug 31, 2013)

I will not send American boys to the Middle East, to fight a war, that robed and towelled Middle Eastern boys oughtta be fightin'.

LBJ 1964

I see a friend and moderate in Assad........

Hillary Clinton 2010

Assad must leave Syria, the regime must change.

Obama 2010/2011/2012/2013

I do not want to see Regime Change

Obama 2013

Now ask yourself if you were a representative, or a soldier in the UK.
Would you want to fight in a military mission that these fools are in control of....?

I'm with the UK, besides, they have been with us at every turn and Americans should respect our most honorable allies and their decisions.
The French............they're as bad as these women with mens haircuts we have in key positions.

Besides, French Tanks were designed with 5 gears.
Four for reverse, and one for forward in case of attack from the rear.


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## AC986 (Aug 31, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> bupper @ Sat Aug 31 said:
> 
> 
> > > A country does not give up its sovereign rights when it joins the UN
> ...



You know that for fact do you?

We already got talked into Iraq when there nothing. Nada. Not this time. We don't have the same interest in Israel as other countries do. GWB blew the shit out of Iraq for nothing but oil and its still going on there. Afghanistan will cave in the second everyone gets out. 
This time the UK government stopped another asshole from making a name for himself and I congratulate the conservatives and labour parties for doing that, albeit the labour leader was apparently told 8 shadow cabinet ministers would resign immediately should he back Cameron.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2013)

bupper @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> In Iraq proving there were absolutely NO chemical weapons



Yes, the Kurds found that so helpful.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2013)

adriancook @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Aug 31 said:
> 
> 
> > bupper @ Sat Aug 31 said:
> ...



If you see someone do something heinous to someone else and assume they will not also do it to you given the opportunity, as Neville Chamberlain did with Hitler, you are foolish.


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## bupper (Aug 31, 2013)

so pre-emptive strikes on everyone is that way to make a world?


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## bupper (Aug 31, 2013)

I shall leave this discussion on the grounds that there are some that will just never see reason


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2013)

bupper @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> so pre-emptive strikes on everyone is that way to make a world?



Of course not, it has to be a case by case basis, 

Clinton, with aid of NATO (not the U.N btw) intervened in Kosovo and I think most people concede it was the correct decision. He did not intervene in Rwanda and he said that it is his biggest regret.

Bush intervened in Iraq and I think most of us think it was a mistake.

In between doing everything and doing nothing is a wide swath.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2013)

bupper @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> I shall leave this discussion on the grounds that there are some that will just never see reason



In the words of Inego Montoya,"I don't think that word means what you think it means." 

reason |ˈrēzən|
noun
1 a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event: the minister resigned for personal reasons | it is hard to know for the simple reason that few records survive.
• good or obvious cause to do something: we have reason to celebrate.
• Logic a premise of an argument in support of a belief, esp. a minor premise when given after the conclusion.
2 the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic: there is a close connection between reason and emotion.
• what is right, practical, or possible; common sense: people are willing, within reason, to pay for schooling.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 31, 2013)

> I got my answer



Yet Cameron *is* an idiot - and I'm not talking about Syria, I mean in general.

******

To those of you who are so sure we should attack Syria: what do you think it's going to do?

I'm not opposed to military intervention if there's an objective, but in this case I simply haven't heard a coherent answer to my question. Of course Assad is offensive - he learned from one of the best - but that doesn't answer my question.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2013)

The Onion had an excellent piece about the lack of good options here - http://www.theonion.com/articles/so-wha ... -be,33662/ .

IMO what caused the surprise vote in the UK was the sudden rush. The moment I heard the UN inspectors were being pulled out early, before they could finish their jobs, I - and I think a great many people - thought "uh oh". Iraq has screwed foreign policy for decades, and that fact has never been more apparent than now. When Blix wasn't finding WMDs - because, as we now know, there weren't any - he was pulled out early so the bombing could commence - the presumption was that the wool was being pulled over his eyes rather than the truth. The message - if you don't find what we want you to find, we'll attack anyway. That resonance was horribly powerful this week.

If the US had waited for the inspectors to finish and then wait for full chemical analysis which revealed that the chemical weapons had indeed come from the government, I think history would have taken a different course (and yes, as I understand it, there will be some strong evidence to suggest WHO was behind the chemical attack, not just that one happened). Since Al Qaida are embedded in the Syrain Opposition, frankly all bets are off - the idea that they could make it look like the appalling government regieme is not too far fetched. This could have started WWIII ultimately, possibly exactly what Al Qaida wants. It still could.

The one thing, above all else, I don't want to see right now is anyone rushing to do anything. We need real, solid, intelligence that is open to scrutiny, not the guesswork, wishful thinking and the same agendas from the industrial military complex that dominated thinking around Iraq WMDs.

The whole situation is so dire and so complex only a fool would believe its simply a matter of bombing the country into democracy and all will be well. All right-thinking people abhor what is going on inside that country (not just the chemical attacks). What to do next is a very complex matter indeed.

EDIT - just read the news re Obama delaying. Smart move - wish he'd seen it this way a week ago though. Military intervention MAY be the best option, but we can't know yet. I feel it's less likely now because of the blundering in rushing.


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## AC986 (Aug 31, 2013)

Obama has delayed his next move. Good idea. Throws a lifeline to Cameron vis a vi his own party. Some seriously dysfunctional politicians both sides of the pond at the moment unfortunately, with some very questionable advisors.

I assume he can overrule any Congress decision but would be mad to do so, as Cameron just found out.


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## chimuelo (Aug 31, 2013)

Personally I would like to see the Iranians and their Holy warriors from Hamas and Hezbollah, along with the Russians keep spending money while wealthy Arabs fund the Jihadists, and they all kill each other. I think containment to hostilites is wise. Turkey, Jordan even Israel are more than capable of striking down any threats that come close to their borders.
As a last resort let the Persian Gulf campaign donors hire Blackwater and other private armies. I understand they aren't the fightin' kind, why fight when they have our sons and daughters protecting their flanks.
Time to step up to the Plate, or move to DC and become a Lobbyist, bringing the Planes full of Gold to deposit here.
They can leave the Yachts in Monaco and St.Tropez, rent them out to Berlesconi and other wealthy elites that swear to fight on till the last drop of your blood... /\~O


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## AC986 (Sep 10, 2013)

Now things have moved on its good to see what is now happening.

This episode has shown a few things. That not only are Cameron and Kerry total fucking buffoons, and indeed Kerry is nothing more than a cheap jack salesman that lies through his teeth, the same as Cameron, it also shows Obama as a total loser with no clue whatsoever as to foreign policy and what is happening in the world today.

Almost as bad as the twats that run the BBC.


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 10, 2013)

adriancook @ Tue Sep 10 said:


> Now things have moved on its good to see what is now happening.
> 
> This episode has shown a few things. That not only are Cameron and Kerry total fucking buffoons, and indeed Kerry is nothing more than a cheap jack salesman that lies through his teeth, the same as Cameron, it also shows Obama as a total loser with no clue whatsoever as to foreign policy and what is happening in the world today.
> 
> Almost as bad as the twats that run the BBC.



Ah, the calm clear voice of reason.


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## AC986 (Sep 10, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Sep 10 said:


> adriancook @ Tue Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Now things have moved on its good to see what is now happening.
> ...



What you mean the BBC? Don't think so mate.

And I don't recall aiming my comments at you. I can if you want me to though. No problem with that at all. OK?


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## Ellywu2 (Sep 10, 2013)

There's a deal on the table for disarmament of chemical weapons. Good.

That strips away any reason for the West to go in, barring realpolitik of course. I'm glad people haven't fallen for Cameron's bullshit.


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## AC986 (Sep 10, 2013)

Ellywu2 @ Tue Sep 10 said:


> There's a deal on the table for disarmament of chemical weapons. Good.
> 
> That strips away any reason for the West to go in, barring realpolitik of course. I'm glad people haven't fallen for Cameron's bullshit.



Cameron and the BBC bullshit. But he isn't going to give up just like that unfortunately. He hasn't finished yet. But Kerry made a blunder and can't really get out of it.

Perhaps Assad should just use napalm or uranium tipped shells in future. :roll:


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## NYC Composer (Sep 11, 2013)

adriancook @ Tue Sep 10 said:


> Ellywu2 @ Tue Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> > There's a deal on the table for disarmament of chemical weapons. Good.
> ...



There are a lot of players in this shell game, and thinking you have the inside scoop on the various scenarios is most likely incorrect.


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## chimuelo (Sep 11, 2013)

Glad to see Hillary has recovered from her concussion and flu to return and bring us fresh scripts from her sponsors.

Sadly my bros in the Mariachi Band that play at her fundraisers had to reschedule as the Green Red & White stage with Styrofoam Pillars was moved to the next fundraising location.

2016 will be hilarious as the GOP will offer free GPS loaded Samsung watches to all illegals that make it across the border to vote since Americans don't seem to want to participate in the shell games.

I' m afraid that Hillary/Soros will win this time as free services and other peoples money will win the day.

As usual, the Conservative Capo's pick the wrong times to be Conservative.


btw Larry I am pretty sure you didn't allow the wealthy Liberal freak show of Spitzer and Weiner to have a chance at taking your money to pay off blackmailers from their predatory desires to take advantage of womens rights.
Thanks for that, and hopefully the return of real democrats might be back in style when this freak show ends in 2014.


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## AC986 (Sep 11, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 11 said:


> adriancook @ Tue Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Ellywu2 @ Tue Sep 10 said:
> ...



I'll tell you what I think. I think Obama just got butt fucked by the Russians on worldwide television. And rightly so too.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2013)

You know, I'd allow mine to be as well if it would prevent a war.

And no, in case you were wondering, I'm not into that kind of thing.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2013)

Okay, okay, maybe a little bit...


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## NYC Composer (Sep 11, 2013)

Yep. I am a great fan of dithering if it prevents wars, and as to loss of face, i'd rather my Pres lost some face than 1000 Syrians lost theirs in missile attacks. If Putin and Assad are full of crap, as I sadly suspect they are, we'll be back here again. We got missiles and time.

Re Chim- i'm not a Dem so I don't vote in primaries, but to see the political concoction of WeinerSpitzer AND Christine Quinn lose made my day.


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## AC986 (Sep 11, 2013)

So the Prez says to Dave, Dave come and help us like you always do to blow the living shit out of Syria.

And Dave says yes! Of he does because he's an ever bigger shithead than Obama.
But then someone says to Dave, Dave we have to have a meeting about this. And sheepish Dave, after the meeting says, sorry but mummy and daddy have said I have to go home now.

So the Prez says to France, hey come and help us blow the shit out of Syria. And France says yes, but do you have a plan?

End of story.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 11, 2013)

adriancook @ Wed Sep 11 said:


> So the Prez says to Dave, Dave come and help us like you always do to blow the living [email protected]#t out of Syria.
> 
> And Dave says yes! Of he does because he's an ever bigger shithead than Obama.
> But then someone says to Dave, Dave we have to have a meeting about this. And sheepish Dave, after the meeting says, sorry but mummy and daddy have said I have to go home now.
> ...



That's one view. I can't argue with your negative opinion ( in fact I share it to a degree) but I guarantee you Obama has no taste for another Middle East war on his watch, so I'm equally sure that regardless of how he's viewed on the world stage, he's vastly relieved for the moment.

I do disagree with "end of story". This story has chapters and chapters to go.


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## AC986 (Sep 11, 2013)

Christian factions in Syria understandably are asking Obama NOT to randomly bomb and help rebels (so called). The USA have backed the wrong side before. Stay out if it. The play on gas weaponry is bullshit.


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## chimuelo (Sep 12, 2013)

Have no fear, I just woke up from another lengthy boring Liberal drivel from a billionaire, using the strike that won't occur, as a negotiating position.

I am happily embarrassed by our wealthy redistributors and their flurry of different positions based on 8 hour polling periods.
It's their weakness and inexperience that allowed another world leader to step in and show these rookies how it's done on the big jobs.
We only need Kerry holding up documents telling us that "Peace is at hand."

Doesn't matter who showed leadership here, we have avoided a senseless use of force in a flacid attempt to remain relevant. Maybe the Syrian Christians can live long enough for Assad to beat Al Queda before more Liberals like Jane Fonda show up over there dressed in Muslim garb, posing with shoulder fired Stinger anti aircraft missiles that we gave them.

:mrgreen:


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## NYC Composer (Sep 12, 2013)

chimuelo @ Thu Sep 12 said:


> Have no fear, I just woke up from another lengthy boring Liberal drivel from a billionaire, using the strike that won't occur, as a negotiating position.
> 
> I am happily embarrassed by our wealthy redistributors and their flurry of different positions based on 8 hour polling periods.
> It's their weakness and inexperience that allowed another world leader to step in and show these rookies how it's done on the big jobs.
> ...



"Remain relevant". Ah, the good old days.

Eisenhower allowing MacArthur to underestimate the strength of Korean forces and bring China into it, kicking our military's ass, causing horrible casualties and setting up an even more fractious relationship with China. CIA in Latin America, removing elected leaders and replacing them with U.S. friendly butchers. Helping the French get slaughtered in Indochina and establishing our own beachhead.

Kennedy- brinksmanship in Cuba, ridiculous failed attempt to destabilize Castro's government with a crappy CIA plot, still the closest we've come to global nuclear war.
Increasing the amount of "advisors" in Vietnam.

Johnson- going whole hog into Vietnam, expanding and expanding. Destroyed his Presidency and probably killed him.

Nixon, expanding (illegally) into Laos and Cambodia. Joins with Kissinger to play the brinksmanship game. Loses spectacularly.

On and on and on, Saddam, Pinochet, Pahlavi of Iran, Trujillo, Batista, assassination of Allende, support of the Taliban and Bin Laden (back when they trying to kick Russian ass), Iran- contra, the Iraq mess, including torture and rendition, the Afghanistan mess, etc etc etc.

Ah, for the good old days of relevance, where men from Skull and Bones had free reign to kick third world ass and drink cheap Mai-Tais on the government's dime.


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## AC986 (Sep 13, 2013)

chimuelo @ Thu Sep 12 said:


> Maybe the Syrian Christians can live long enough for Assad to beat Al Queda before more Liberals like Jane Fonda show up over there dressed in Muslim garb, posing with shoulder fired Stinger anti aircraft missiles that we gave them.
> 
> :mrgreen:



You could give Obama another Nobel Peace Prize. Can you have two?


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## NYC Composer (Sep 13, 2013)

adriancook @ Fri Sep 13 said:


> chimuelo @ Thu Sep 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe the Syrian Christians can live long enough for Assad to beat Al Queda before more Liberals like Jane Fonda show up over there dressed in Muslim garb, posing with shoulder fired Stinger anti aircraft missiles that we gave them.
> ...



Arafat got one. Why not Obama?


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 13, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Fri Sep 13 said:


> "Remain relevant". Ah, the good old days.
> 
> Eisenhower allowing MacArthur to underestimate the strength of Korean forces and bring China into it, kicking our military's ass, causing horrible casualties and setting up an even more fractious relationship with China. CIA in Latin America, removing elected leaders and replacing them with U.S. friendly butchers. Helping the French get slaughtered in Indochina and establishing our own beachhead.
> 
> ...



Quite.

The inability to look at the past foreign policy record (funding Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan etc) and still further connect it with the present never ceases to amaze me. I guess history books must be for liberal pinko scum or something. Apparently, real men shoot, bomb and arm first, and then don't bother to ask any questions later.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 13, 2013)

I love my country. We've done a lot of good as well. I love it enough not to be a party to cheap jingoistic nonsense, to try to help it improve and grow morally and ethically, to hope it evolves into a better place.

To say that I'm highly uncertain about Mr Putin's initiative is to put it mildly. His history is not one of democracy and peace, more of power mongering and repression. I'm certainly willing to welcome him to the world stage as a statesman, but we shall see. His vested interests in Syria do not encourage me to think of him in that vein.

There will always be a Big Dog in the world, militarily and economically. The players will change over time, but I suggest that being left to the tender mercies of China or Russia would probably not improve things for the citizens of the planet.

The British Empire had its time, as did the empires of other European countries. I am sometimes amused by the moral high ground that Europe takes, seemingly, as its birthright. It was involved in the greatest human slaughters of the 20th century. There was also India.And French Indochina. Algeria. Europe has its own long, long list. These things go in cycles of power.

We Americans own no exclusivity when it comes to cultural conflict-and I'm always interested when other nations ignore the fractious divides between us. We have a huge country with vastly differing views. Many deplored Iraq. Many deplored Vietnam. I know many Brits were not happy with Tony Blair when he signed on to Iraq, yet there the government took them. Vested self interest goes a long way in bad decision making.

I should delete all this, but the hell with it.

(none of this is aimed at you, Guy, I'm just rambling and grumbling.)


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## Ellywu2 (Sep 13, 2013)

It could be argued that Europe takes the moral high ground simply because it was involved in the greatest human slaughter in _history_, let alone the 20th century. I too would be pretty apprehensive towards warfare if I'd seen half my country burn under the heels of a foreign invader. Something like WWII has left a stain on the psyche of many European nations - never again.

Obviously, this doesn't account for the UK. We're perfectly happy to ignore the wishes of our populace, blunder into any old war to feebly try and convince ourselves that we are still a relevant global power and generally be aloof to the concerns of those BLERDY EUROPEONS.


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 13, 2013)

The bottom line to me is, it seems, that world in general hasn't really come to terms with complexity. We wish to see everything in terms of good guys / bad guys, and it's rarely as simple as that. It's possible to feel an odd sort of nostalgia for WWII, cos that's what it looks like (well until you factor in Stalin in the equation anyway).

It's pretty frustrating to hear our Western leaders say "it's the right thing to do, we cannot sit on our hands", telling the world what the correct moral response is. I share deep scepticism of Putin, Larry, but he makes a vaild point re Al Qaida... doing "the right thing" might very well wind up with America supporting Al Qaida, little more than a decade after 9/11. How is that the right thing to do, I wonder? History is indeed littered with the legacy of unholy alliances.

The proposed Russian plan looks full of holes and pitfalls to me - never mind chemical weapons, millions have died in Syria from other means... is that OK now? There are vested interests on all sides. Nevertheless, in a sea of very bad options, it could be that this is the least bad.


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## AC986 (Sep 13, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Fri Sep 13 said:


> adriancook @ Fri Sep 13 said:
> 
> 
> > chimuelo @ Thu Sep 12 said:
> ...



I thought he already had one.


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