# Piano and Strings theme (LASS)



## nikolas (Dec 4, 2010)

Yup,

I put the (LASS) in there to capture some interest here, otherwise it'd get unnoticed! :D

Here's a theme I did for a computer game (yes, classical music in computer games! There's still hope). Very tonal, very classical, almost romantic in nature.

http://www.northbysound.com/Clients/wen ... office.mp3

Piano: Garritan Steinway pro
Strings: LASS

If Andrew and Gary are reading this, I just want to say that it's... inspiring to work with such tools!

The one "complain" I have from the piano is that the right hand notes to not 'ring' as long as I'd like them to... :-/ (Suddent ending due to loop, sorry...)


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## alpiner (Dec 5, 2010)

very nice composition. to push it a litle more, i would try another piano sound....


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## Ryan Scully (Dec 5, 2010)

Very nice - I really like the harmonic structure of this piece. Definitely has a post classical/romantic vibe to it.


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## RiffWraith (Dec 5, 2010)

nikolas @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Yup,
> 
> I put the (LASS) in there to capture some interest here, otherwise it'd get unnoticed! :D



LOL

Hate the title...  

This is really nice. I am envisioning so many things picture-wise that this would work well with. 

I for one like the piano sound, but that is so much a matter of opinion - there really is no right nor wrong. Tho I must say, some of the melody notes - for example, the D D# D at approx :56 - are a bit too bright for the piece. You might want to "mellow those up" a tad. The other issue I have is those chords - the bouncing chords* that play 8 times each that start @ :33 - they sound a bit too repetative. I guess here is where RRs would come in handy. Maybe dip the fader down a bit on a few of those chords, and/or use another vel layer - maybe even use another piano lib for a few of those chords. That may sound a bit odd, but if you eq the other piano lib to match closely, and use the proper vel layer, it can work. Yes, there will be a differemce, but that's basically what you want - not too much, but some.


*Learn me something - is there a musical term for those "bouncing chords"? Not sure what else to call them...ha! Would you consider that an ostinato?


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 5, 2010)

This is where you want those velocity variations. A nice virtual piano sound, in my opinion is a combination of sound and velocity variations. On this forum not many people want to believe the velocity factor, not sure why.... But I do. Especially the moment your piano part is more exposed and lengthier. And in repetition notes, you REALLY need them, it's going to make it you never have twice the same exact sound, like a real piano. I doubt any mix will solve that. 
Some of the sustained higher notes died pretty quickly but you were aware of that.

The music is nice, quite surprising to hear Nikolas doing Beethoven!


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## nikolas (Dec 5, 2010)

Thanks for the comments, everyone!

Yes, I don't think there's RR in the Garritan Steinway, but I really enjoy the sound! I also own pianoteq, which is superb (and has 127 velocity layers), but somehow I can never get that very 'classical' sound!

Some chords do seem to repeat themselves a little (although it was performed live so there isn't a quantizing issue there), but I don't think I will be changing the piano, but perhaps a velocity layer, do a few tricks to make it 'better'...

And yes it's a little Beethoven/Chopin work.

Riff: I think ostinato would work in this case, although I'm not quite sure if there's another term, more fitting!


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 5, 2010)

I doubt you're talking about 127 *real velocity* layers, more volume layers with a hint of timbre change or something like that.


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## Mr. Anxiety (Dec 5, 2010)

Nice composition Nikolas.

Suggestion........ if you want to use that piano sample, then try putting it "back into the room" a bit more and lower the dynamic a bit. This way you are not hitting the brighter notes of the melody as hard, and the more room sound will soften the tone even more.

You might need to lower the dynamic of the strings to match as well. It is a quiet piece anyway.

Hope this helps.

Mr A


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## mducharme (Dec 6, 2010)

I assume you were going for Chopin's E minor prelude (the musical texture is identical, but different chords, key and melody). I would say you have succeeded at the sound, the augmented-6th-chords-resolving-to-dominant added give it that Beethoven-feel. However I do find the similarity to the E minor prelude is distracting, personally, because I'm so familiar with that work. Have you considered perhaps a slightly different accompaniment pattern or rhythm?


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## hbuus (Dec 6, 2010)

Mr. Anxiety @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Nice composition Nikolas.
> 
> Suggestion........ if you want to use that piano sample, then try putting it "back into the room" a bit more and lower the dynamic a bit. This way you are not hitting the brighter notes of the melody as hard, and the more room sound will soften the tone even more.



+1 to that. Good suggestions, Mr. A.

Still, nice composition, Nikolas.

Best,
Henrik


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## nikolas (Dec 6, 2010)

Mr. A. and Henrik, Perhaps you're right. Although I do enjoy the sound of the piano as it stands, I'll see if taking it back further will work. Lowering the dynamics, I'll have to check the velocities a little bit, but in general the Garritan Steinway is, by default low in dynamics...

mducharme: AHA! Someone got it! Yes, this was exactly had I had in mind (pehraps in a lesser extent the Eminor Mazurka as well...). I'm not so sure I want to steer away from that exact pattern, perhaps because it's so simply that noone can really claim fatherhood (even thought you succeeded in finding out exactly where my thoughts were at the time of 'composing'). If I change that left hand ostinato, I think all will be gone (it would be 'easy' to do some variations on the left hand, but it would change the track completely).

I can't say I can claim any originality wins here, I'm afraid. 

Thanks for listening all!


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## germancomponist (Dec 6, 2010)

Hi Nikolas,

You did a nice composition. 

Beethoven, Chopin or not..... .


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## nikolas (Dec 6, 2010)

Here's the full story.

The track is composed for Harris's Office (ergo the filename), who is a phychologist and has a love for classical music, wooden furniture and some gold colours!

We agreed with the game developer(s) to go towards classical music and left it at that.

I immediately thought of some Beethoven, the slow 2nd movements. I tried a few ideas and didn't enjoy that. So I moved towards Chopin style, with the repeated chords. I did have in mind to make it more 'Chopin-esk' by adding the bass on the first beat, but never got round to it (forgot about it). So I left it as it stands now. I worked on the track for two hours and that was it... 

The smilarity to the Chopin prelude lies, not only in the repeated chords, but also in the 2nd passing of the first theme where the vln I goes G-Ab-G-Ab and so on, which is an exact replicate of the chopin prelude (the right hand, in Em, not in Cm where my track is).

Pathetique, never came in mind, but I also see the similarities. It's also in Cm, which brings things closer.

In all I'm still wondering if there's any Nikolas in there. The paycheck reads Nikolaos Sideris (with an "o" in my name... that's my full passport name), but other than that... oh well...

Still I still retain the right to enjoy this particular work (I don't share everything I do).

Given the time tomorrow, I will attempt to alter the piano, just to see what can come out of it.

Thanks all for the comments!


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## Mahlon (Dec 6, 2010)

Very nice, indeed, Nikolas.

Mahlon


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## Dave Connor (Dec 6, 2010)

Nikolas, 

If you added both tempo and dynamic fluctuations the way a pianist would I think it would breathe a lot of life into the track. If you listen to Rubenstein or Horowitz or Ashkenazy playing the Chopin prelude you will hear some different approaches which have various degrees of liberty of interpretation. Right now its a little too metronomic I think but you could easily bring it to a more natural sounding performance.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 6, 2010)

I'd go even further and say a good and expressive performance is a huge part of the credibility of the instrument.


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## nikolas (Dec 6, 2010)

Mahlon, thank you.

Dave, I think you're right, so here's my question to more experience producers than me:

I got caught uo with the tempo, since I did use a metronome. I knew I was going to be adding strings after the piano, and I did want it to be roughly 'on tempo'.

Since I am a pianist, I could flactuate the tempo much more while performing it, but I was stuck with the metronome. So the question:

What the way out of that?
1. Don't use the metronome and play everything with the midi controller, hoping you will have eyes to move anything gone wrong?
2. Use and change the shit on the tempo track?

I did actually change the tempo track in a few places (the two rit.) but nothing more. Should I go much more than this? Will it be more... alive like this?

Dynamics, I like it as it I think, It's all supposed to be p or mp.

EDIT: Once I get into the studio (Greek time right now: 06:33), I'll redo the piano part with pianoteq and with no metronome, to see how it fairs out...


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 6, 2010)

I stress this having done some pieces with piano and strings, but ESPECIALLY if your piece requires rubato. I should of stressed that much sooner.

When I meant practice it, don't mean the notes but the interpretation.


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## nikolas (Dec 6, 2010)

Ok, here we go. I'm not sure which one is better really, but...

http://www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/Harris_office.zip (www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/Harris_office.zip) (it contains all the following files, just for the easiness of downloading)

http://www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/Harris_office1.mp3 (www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/Harris_office1.mp3) (with strings, with altered the tempo map, and with pianoteq instead of the Garritan Steinway).
http://www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/Harris_office2.mp3 (www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/Harris_office2.mp3) (with pianoteq, newly performed version (tiny variations at a few places), nothing altered whatsoever.
http://www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/Harris_office3.mp3 (www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/Harris_office3.mp3) (the above, with the Garritan Steinway. Again unaltered, but I would alter a few velocity layers at some points, tbh).

And finally: http://www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/Harris_office2.mid (www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/Harris_office2.mid) (the midi file for No2 and No3. No tempo altering whatsoever, nothing altered in fact, as is evident).

From studying my own midi file I can deduct that:
a. I'm rather accurate to the repeated chords.
b. I don't fancy too much rubato (and I've got plenty of files to prove that! :D)
c. The velocity of the repeated chords remains the same most of the times.

Perhaps I'm that kind of the performer. I never fancied too much romantic music. I'm much more into contemporary stuff. Not sure really.

Thanks though for this fascinating discussion ALL OF YOU!


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## ricother (Dec 7, 2010)

I prefer the 3rd one. The left hand sound of the pianoteq is too tiresome on the 2nd one.
Now it would be good to see how the 3rd one sound like adding the strings, as now it sounds more expressive to me.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 7, 2010)

Nikolas, it's not a question of it you have a rubato style or not, the point is just to make it sound livelier. Having said that, you did play it more rubato in these versions, and I agree the 3rd one is a lot livelier than your original. If you add the strings now, I'm sure your piece will sound so much more expressive. 

Now that your piano sounds good, I have to say I don't like the sound of your strings, I hear too much as chords or like a pad which gives an annoying sound to my ears, rather than separate expressive and slightly more independant parts, and even though they are playing the same note values.

Hope this is helping.


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## johan25 (Dec 7, 2010)

Guy is not making it easy for you nikolas 

I like your piece, I heard similar music on the movie ''the pianist''


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## nikolas (Dec 7, 2010)

First of all thanks for all the comments.

Yes Guy is not making it easy, but I prefer that, rather than a constant "well done".

now, to address your point about the strings: The lines were a matter of choice, rather than poor orchestration or other. What I mean is that I decided to go towards almost block chords rather than having a much more moving lines. The lines where recorded individually each one, and I really wanted that very effect, and not a more 'alive' feeling in the chords. So, yes, I see what you mean but I'll stand by my choice of having very static string lines. 

Again thanks for all the comments!


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## Dave Connor (Dec 7, 2010)

Wow! Listening to the first one and I thought the feel was right on Nikolas - exactly what I was talking about so very well done! Sounded very natural to me as a piano performance. I will listen to others.


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## Dave Connor (Dec 7, 2010)

A musical question Nikolas: at the first cadence the solo cello is on the 3rd degree wile the piano is on the 4th. Was this a deliberate way of toying with convention in the way Stravinsky would perhaps? Just curious.


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