# Spitfire and VSL will be the dominant developers for the next decade



## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 21, 2022)

At least, that's my prediction. In terms of sales, awareness, usage, discussion (specifically leaving out "quality" as that's very subjective).

Spitfire has Abbey Road and AIR locked up and has a great track record for putting out a lot of unique libraries (whether you like them or not, they're still unique - and unique allows them to keep selling to existing customers and to reach new customers). They also have the brand equity and marketing prowess to, I think, outsell pretty much any other developer by a large margin.

VSL has really positioned itself well with the Synchron stage libraries, moving away from eLicenser, producing a lot more content, and recently, getting into free content. Their quality bar and sample player also continue to be leading the pack. They've gotten into a good sales cadence to make their libraries more accessible to more people and Ben is a great asset as well for garnering support. They've also started branching out in terms of sample content, outside of just traditional classical stuff like in the early days. Synchron Stage is also growing in terms of high-profile scoring sessions. Still a ways to go for VSL to have Spitfire-level awareness, but they seem better positioned than any other developer to get there.

Few others that I think could have positioned themselves to take the mantle, but now I don't see it happening due to missteps. OT, Cinesamples, EastWest. Cinematic Studio Series has a lot of love, but still would consider them relatively small and with limited future growth potential given their focus / output speed.

Should be an interesting next 10 years for sample libraries and music composition!


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## SandChannel (Apr 21, 2022)

That is a pretty tame prediction. They are the biggest players in the game.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 21, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> That is a pretty tame prediction. They are the biggest players in the game.


True - at the core, not controversial given their position (well, at least Spitfire). Maybe more controversial is that I'm saying nobody else will be able to supplant them over the next 10 years.


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## Markrs (Apr 21, 2022)

I’m not convinced yet that VSL will be such a big player. I think in the pro composer market they are, but for bedroom producers, they won’t be and to be honest I still think that is where you find most buyers even if they are looking to spend less individually than pros do.

The future is music as a hobbyist marketplace including for sample libraries.

Spitfire absolutely, and to be honest I think most of their modern libraries are for that bedroom producer hobbyist market, which is why they are the biggest player. I can see Orchestral Tools moving more into that space as well.

I am sure there will also be a new player that will come into the market, probably with their own player or using something like HISE, and make serious inroads.


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## Roger Newton (Apr 21, 2022)

They've already been dominating the game for that long at least. VSL longer.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 21, 2022)

Roger Newton said:


> They've already been dominating the game for that long at least. VSL longer.


I wouldn’t say VSL has been dominating the game. They’ve been around for a long time, but I think had fallen by the wayside with the rise of Spitfire, EW, CineSamples, OT - until recently when they’ve had a resurgence.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 21, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I’m not convinced yet that VSL will be such a big player. I think in the pro composer market they are, but for bedroom producers, they won’t be and to be honest I still think that is where you find most buyers even if they are looking to spend less individually than pros do.
> 
> The future is music as a hobbyist marketplace including for sample libraries.
> 
> ...


Yeah I think you’re right in terms of the future market. I think VSL has a shot if they expand free offerings and branch out beyond their traditional classic-oriented stuff (which they’ve started to).

I think OT is desperately trying to copy Spitfire’s playbook, but executing it very poorly. They need to bring in new leadership IMO.


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## CT (Apr 21, 2022)

It'll be very interesting to see how long the "white collar hobbyist market," which I think has probably helped out a lot of developers over the last two years or so (and has led to a certain change in marketing etc., but that's another story), persists. Without that, I wonder what everyone other than the few with clear long-term plans and some measure of assured financial stability will do. 

This was a different scene ten or so years ago when there were a few developers, quite small in scale, catering pretty much only to their composer colleagues. There's a lot more competition now, and even if most still don't have massive operating costs to recoup, if a large part of the "new" market doesn't last and demand shrinks back towards a much smaller professional/semi-professional crowd only... we'll see.


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## blaggins (Apr 21, 2022)

I hope it doesn't go the way of other hobbyist markets that boom and bust. In the US market I'm thinking of one particular example: Homebrewing. It had a massive resurgence in the early 00s with a steady build starting to have momentum around the time of craft beer revival in the 80s, and swelling hugely around the time that the number of craft breweries exploded in the USA. Certainly there was immense demand around that time and lots of money getting spent. But today it seems like homebrew stores around the U.S. are closing (I know of 3 examples just in the areas I have lived, stores that I shopped at and followed on social media) or consolidating behind a couple of very large internet retailers, and on the whole it seems like fewer and fewer people are getting into the hobby.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 21, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> It'll be very interesting to see how long the "white collar hobbyist market," which I think has probably helped out a lot of developers over the last two years or so (and has led to a certain change in marketing etc., but that's another story), persists. Without that, I wonder what everyone other than the few with clear long-term plans and some measure of assured financial stability will do.
> 
> This was a different scene ten or so years ago when there were a few developers, quite small in scale, catering pretty much only to their composer colleagues. There's a lot more competition now, and even if most still don't have massive operating costs to recoup, if a large part of the "new" market doesn't last and demand shrinks back towards a much smaller professional/semi-professional crowd only... we'll see.


Do you see the hobbyist market pulling back? That would be very interesting.

I would find it surprising, personally, as making music - for those that gravitate towards it - becomes an inherent need for most. But perhaps once you have a few libraries, you have all you need. 

Also, I think the market size is much larger than the one currently being tapped into by these developers - Spitfire seems to be starting to expand their reach (via things like the Ableton or LUNA integrations). So much more to go. Then again, the only time yearly guitar sales in the past 20 years seem to have taken a big drop is around the recession - which could happen again.


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## cfodeebiedaddy (Apr 21, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Yeah I think you’re right in terms of the future market. I think VSL has a shot if they expand free offerings and branch out beyond their traditional classic-oriented stuff (which they’ve started to).


I think VSL have more than a shot. Whether by accident or design, they straddle multiple markets. I get the sense here at VI: control that they're about as reliable as it gets for knowing you're going to get a good sounding, well-scripted instrument for use in production. At the same time, over at PianoWorld, they're consistently among the instruments of choice for performers.

They also have really strong service depts and genuinely helpful forum presences, so they'd have to work really hard to lose their edge(s) IMO!


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## RSK (Apr 21, 2022)

I remember reading about VSL in the early 2000's and wishing I could afford to own it. Now here we are 20 years later and their libraries are still at the top in terms of quality, but the price has come down significantly. Technological progress is a wonderful thing.


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## Futchibon (Apr 22, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Should be an interesting next 10 years for sample libraries and music composition!


Interesting you should post this the day Cinesamples releases Musio. 

I think subscriptions will appeal to a huge market. I can't wait to try it out, only $19.99 per month and cancel anytime. Of course they're not the first, but Eastwest samples are seriously bland IMO and not worth it, but Cinebrass and Cineperc seriously rock!

Will Spitfire offer a subscription model down the track?


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## jcrosby (Apr 22, 2022)

I think OT are being underestimated. They've grown they're catalogue ridiculously fast, they have a few celebrity products under their belt, and have been carving out their own brand of unique with creative soundpacks. Their freebies are ridiculously good too. I'd easily pay for Dynamo and Gearbox if they were inexpensive commercial products priced similarly to SF Originals.

I personally think all 3 are the ones to keep an eye one - SF, VSL and OT.


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## cedricm (Apr 22, 2022)

I wouldn't be surprised if a new entrant became a major player within 10 years.
Today, sampling is ultra-basic. Sample libraries are glorified sample recordings cut into smaller pieces and corrected / massaged.
Even the recordings, mostly note by note, is primitive.

And I don't mean it in a demeaning or dismissive manner, but a realist one.

There's a huge opportunity for progress in recording techniques (e.g. recording a series of pieces optimized to get each notes realistically while minimizing the number of pieces to record. Or possibly intelligent automatic scanning of previous concerts), rendering with improved mixing of samples and modeling, spatialization, taking advantage of ML/AI progresses and so forth.

The players are also primitive. We have to do way too many preparations (track delay, leveling) and way too much work for MIDI orchestration. We are wasting so much time preparing templates. In the future, this will be automated a lot and much simplified. Lots of people will be able to produce expressive music without having to train for years to become MIDI wizards.


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## Markrs (Apr 22, 2022)

cedricm said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if a new entrant became a major player within 10 years.
> Today, sampling is ultra-basic. Sample libraries are glorified sample recordings cut into smaller pieces and corrected / massaged.
> Even the recordings, mostly note by note, is primitive.
> 
> ...


I very much agree, I think Spitfire will continue to do well as they are very business and marketing focused. That might sound like a bad thing but once you mature as a company it is how you look to grow the market you are in.

However I consider sampling as a real growth market and I think at the moment it is in its infancy when it comes to growth into the hobbyist market and that we will see new players come in and shake things up a bit. Some of those new players might already be with us, but haven’t yet had the impact.


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## sundrowned (Apr 22, 2022)

cedricm said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if a new entrant became a major player within 10 years.
> Today, sampling is ultra-basic. Sample libraries are glorified sample recordings cut into smaller pieces and corrected / massaged.
> Even the recordings, mostly note by note, is primitive.
> 
> ...


I half agree but then 20 years ago the tech wasn't very different to now. In some ways it's quite a slow market. I wouldn't be surprised if in 20 years time there isn't a huge development. Just small incremental steps.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 22, 2022)

Interesting thread.

I think we should be wary of viewing the market through the "VI-C bubble" though. Outside of our collective legato obsession, there are thousands of composers/producers who view VI's very differently.

Spitfire - absolutely - especially as they were quick to target the "hobbyist" market with laser focus. I do wonder how long they can sustain the growth and release cycle though. Perhaps they'll start "recycling" their existing, older and expensive content?

VSL? Not so sure how much reach they have. Very cool company but they've been doing their own "thing" for so long now. I think they're more of a pro composer and forum favourite TBH, rather than an all conquering market juggernaut.

Also surprised that NI isn't on the list? Only company who are doing hardware and are *very* aware where the market actually is. (Not us.) Recent mergers etc make them pretty formidable.


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## Markrs (Apr 22, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> Also surprised that NI isn't on the list? Only company who are doing hardware and are *very* aware where the market actually is. (Not us.) Recent mergers etc make them pretty formidable.


Totally agree, NI will continue to be a very large player in the market as like Spitfire they are laser focused on the hobbyist market.



Alex Fraser said:


> Spitfire - absolutely - especially as they were quick to target the "hobbyist" market with laser focus. I do wonder how long they can sustain the growth and release cycle though. Perhaps they'll start "recycling" their existing, older and expensive content?


The key with Spitfire was they were the first to give away substantial number of libraries via the LABS series. They were also one of the first to do fixed low cost libraries via the Originals series, and low cost collaboration libraries. Plus they are now recruiting even more people into sampling via Pianobook. They are a masterclass in expanding their marketplace outside of VI-C world they were born from.


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## cedricm (Apr 22, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> I think we should be wary of viewing the market through the "VI-C bubble" though. Outside of our collective legato obsession, there are thousands of composers/producers who view VI's very differently.
> 
> ...


NI yes, if they become interested again more in music than milking. 

The samples player market has suffered tremendously from Kontakt and the huge fees for developers. Which means all sample library producers have invested much of their dev time creating players just for the sake of not paying huge fees to NI. Absolutely makes sense from a business perspective, but a huge waste of man hours for no progress at all from the point of view of the customer. Typical example : the "award winning" Spitfire player. 

Even with Kontakt library sellers, why is everbody developing her own "special sauce" legato script?

Here's hoping open source could free those companies for ultimately boring, low value work, and get the resources for true innovation. Just like it did for cloud services.


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## Markrs (Apr 22, 2022)

cedricm said:


> The samples player market has suffered tremendously from Kontakt and the huge fees for developers. Which means all sample library producers have invested much of their dev time creating players just for the sake of not paying huge fees to NI. Absolutely makes sense from a business perspective, but a huge waste of man hours for no progress at all from the point of view of the customer.


I don't want to go off on too much of a tangent, but I believe piracy was the bigger issue (basically anything created for Kontakt is freely available on pirate websites) than the fees, that can probably be negotiated if you are a big enough company.


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## RonOrchComp (Apr 22, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I wouldn’t say VSL has been dominating the game.



VSL has been one of the major sample library developers since 2003.

Saying that you think VSL and Spitfire will be the dominant developers for the next decade, is like saying that you think google will be the dominant search engine for the next decade.


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 22, 2022)

I agree with those who say OT is underrated in this analysis, and even more with those who say that a technical evolution is closing in, and things may change a lot. 

Maybe I missed, but no mention of Performance Samples? I know Jasper is one man army etc. And his release strategy is a bit odd as of late - still he has done some crazy stuff since he started, and I hope all his currently announced projects will come to fruition - if it won't place him on top of the hill, I don't know what will.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 22, 2022)

cedricm said:


> The samples player market has suffered tremendously from Kontakt and the huge fees for developers. Which means all sample library producers have invested much of their dev time creating players just for the sake of not paying huge fees to NI. Absolutely makes sense from a business perspective, but a huge waste of man hours for no progress at all from the point of view of the customer. Typical example : the "award winning" Spitfire player.


If you're expanding your business, at some point you'd have to break free of using a rival company to play and distribute your product.

Also, staying Kontakt only closes opportunities for business growth and expansion: Spitfire created their own player partly for LABS and partly for technical reasons (1000 mic signals!)

OT made the Sine player to provide a different way for customers to purchase libraries.

Subscriptions aren't possible in a Kontakt-only world etc etc. Not knocking Kontakt at all, but there was a business case for moving beyond it for these companies.

Also - I wouldn't say it was a waste of time from a customer point of view. I'm not sure either where the Spitfire Player got it's award from either, but folk outside VI-C seem to like the simple form and lack of complexity. Eye of the beholder etc etc.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 22, 2022)

It seems odd to me that Spitfire should do so well with amateurs when their libraries are so un-instrument like. But then I suppose that might appeal to people who see themselves as producers and composers but have never put in, or been able to put in, the work to develop as musicians.

As a musician first and foremost, I want instruments that I can play rather than loops and evolving samples that I can assemble.

My focus on musicianship is because non-professionals are unlikely to have access to many other musicians to perform their work. So, either they perform it themselves or it remains a composition only, merely mocked up. So I would be looking to virtual instruments that are rich in performative, interpretive nuances. But, of course, not everyone is the same. And some of those who are into classical and classical-esque composing may be more comfortable stopping with a mock up rather than a performance. Composing and orchestrating may be all they were really focused on. 

Perhaps this is also the difference between hobbyists and other amateurs. Tabletop role playing games are my hobby. Music and literature are my reasons for living. (Well, love and friendship too... And doughnuts.) I want to bring the work of art to its final stage. 

Any ten-year prediction is uncertain. It doesn't take long for companies to fail or be supplanted in dominance. So it is a meaningful prediction.


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## dts_marin (Apr 22, 2022)

The most successful one will be the first to dabble into an open source sampler and samples. There are a lot of free products but those aren't open source. Cost isn't the problem. The problem is the restrictive licencing and abhorrent EULAs that are commonplace in this industry.

Also the lack of Linux support is very sad. There are DAWs with Linux support nowadays but no usable sample libraries, especially orchestral ones. We are very dependent on Microsoft & Apple.

We are unlucky because this niche market is really small compared to others and so far nobody has disrupted the market with something free and so good that proprietary options look laughable compared to it.

I want to see devs panic a bit because they are getting really comfortable with their BS business practices. No refunds, limited machine installations, cringeworthy marketing gimmicks etc.

With so many members in this forum we could crowdfund an open source sample library and let them pound sand with 30 dynamic layers and 100 RRs.


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## Roger Newton (Apr 22, 2022)

Futchibon said:


> I think subscriptions will appeal to a huge market. I can't wait to try it out, only $19.99 per month and cancel anytime.


They'll go the way of Netflix if everyone does that. Then they will have to come up with another model just as Netflix are planning now.


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## Futchibon (Apr 22, 2022)

Roger Newton said:


> They'll go the way of Netflix if everyone does that. Then they will have to come up with another model just as Netflix are planning now.


That's their problem, not ours!


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## TomislavEP (Apr 22, 2022)

Many posts in this thread attribute SA's success to their orientation primarily toward hobbyists. That was never my impression, even today when they have several lines of affordable products that still retain their recognizable quality. Of course, their marketing approaches tend to speak differently.

Personally, I see a lot of potential in the freeware scene. Pianobook and Spitfire Labs are veritable proof that free VI's and libraries can have practically the same depth and quality as many commercial releases and be a true alternative to those. Also, many commercial developers are often giving away full-featured products these days. Of course that there is marketing and profit behind everything, but the gap between the free and commercial domains is certainly decreasing. I don't expect that some libraries, (the orchestral ones, in particular) that require a lot of resources to produce, will eventually go completely freeware, but everything else is fair game.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 22, 2022)

TomislavEP said:


> Many posts in this thread attribute SA's success to their orientation primarily toward hobbyists. That was never my impression, even today when they have several lines of affordable products that still retain their recognizable quality. Of course, their marketing approaches tend to speak differently.


Agreed. There's nothing "non-pro" about what Spitfire are doing product wise.
It's more so the marketing I think: The Academy, Composer Magazine, LABS etc. All these are designed to "hook" a wider marketplace than working composers.


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## Roger Newton (Apr 22, 2022)

TomislavEP said:


> Many posts in this thread attribute SA's success to their orientation primarily toward hobbyists.


What you notice all too often on discussions about music/libraries/etc is the word hobbyist. I'm a hobbyist. Doesn't mean I don't do it as professionally as possible and don't make any money out of it. I know a lot of so-called hobbyists that make more money from their hobby than their day job. I know a ton of musicians that throughout life have had music as their main hobby. Most of these musicians are way and above in musical level than so-called professionals. Most people that get into music (less so classical) are basically just chancers.
So this notion of appealing to hobbyists is nothing new. Making kit models, fishing rods ect. Been around for years.


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## soulofsound (Apr 22, 2022)

10 years is too long a prediction range. 5 years yes. 10 years from now, we might well not use sample libraries any longer, but hybrid sample-synth libraries or maybe full synthesis for orchestral and other instruments. The same will happen with plugins i think. Modelled plugins will gradually make (more) room for captures of real hardware. This is possible with guitar amps now (Kemper, Neural DSP), but the same technology will be available for any kind of device. So instead of many people using the same modelled plugin (like from any manufacturer like UA for instance), there will be many many models of many different types of hardware (which will be both fun and confusing given the choice). 
And further in the future it might become possible to even synthesize real acoustic instruments, like when you have a cello, you can make your own digital model of it, then exchange modelled instruments with other users, and build orchestras from many different models. It's possible this will not work well, and that the way to a real orchestral sound will remain sample-based. But i doubt it. I think we will become so good at finding all the parameters of what we hear (many more than we know now), that we will be able to synthesize anything and then be able to even tweak the parameters to come up with different timbres of the same instrument (like Synthesizer V for instance realistically changes the timbre of a voice). 

So the future of sound is only beginning. Where CG is nearing completion of its evolutionary cycle with Unreal Engine and Unity now making it possible to create realistic worlds easily and for free, the world of sound and music however goes much deeper, and we have not seen the last of it yet.

'All art constantly aspires to the condition of music', as the famous quote goes.


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## RogiervG (Apr 22, 2022)

But.. a side question..
who cares about who dominates?


it's about what IS available, that YOU like to have a use license for...
Being it from a small or bigger player, it doesn't matter imho.

If the library fits, use it.. otherwise skip it and seek elsewhere.

In other words, i don't see the use of the ongoing discussion OP has initiated with the question/thought by making this thread. (no offense though).


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## dhmusic (Apr 22, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> At least, that's my prediction. In terms of sales, awareness, usage, discussion (specifically leaving out "quality" as that's very subjective).
> 
> Spitfire has Abbey Road and AIR locked up and has a great track record for putting out a lot of unique libraries (whether you like them or not, they're still unique - and unique allows them to keep selling to existing customers and to reach new customers). They also have the brand equity and marketing prowess to, I think, outsell pretty much any other developer by a large margin.
> 
> ...


Seeing Orchestral Tools lumped in with the rest of these is like seeing a wardrobe full of tailor-made dry-clean-only garments getting thrown in a river because it was too much trouble to wash the right way


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 22, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> But.. a side question..
> who cares about who dominates?
> 
> 
> ...



I think it is all connected.


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## RogiervG (Apr 22, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I think it is all connected.


lol


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## novaburst (Apr 22, 2022)

I think collaboration is key for growth and stability, if you think about Steinberg Collaboration with Yamaha, look at how Cubase and Nuendo are still the DAW to beat even in 2022.yes some prefer other Draws but that is only because Cubase offers so much and can be a bit mind blowing.

There seems to be a collaboration building up with NI and Izotope, also indirectly VSL and ilok 

the key to sustainable could be collaboration but it does come with its pitfalls and that is bad management and difference of opinion. Can course failure or break ups.

But it does work just look at Steinberg and Yamaha., Yamaha from Japan Steinberg from Germany.but giving us such great products from software to hardware.


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## eakwarren (Apr 22, 2022)

Interesting topic! Another factor that may influence the future landscape is the advancement of computing/storage technology itself. The last decade felt stagnant, but with recent developments in ARM processors, 8TB SSDs, Thunderbolt 4/USB4 bandwidth, etc. it feels like innovation is on the rise. Perhaps software dev teams will look to utilize these advancements as they refine their proprietary _players*_.

Other interface paradigms will continue to evolve. Not everyone interested in music has or desires level 10 piano chops. (Not to detract from @Bee_Abney’s performance points above.) Staffpad comes to mind here. What they’ve achieved using newer technology (ie.tablet input) is amazing. (As my piano chops are like level 2 at best, I can’t get my DAW-based VI’s to sound as good as just writing a line in Staffpad with their OT libs.)

Software innovation that addresses workflow will also continue to evolve. Examples already include Sonuscore’s TOC ensemble engine (the genesis of OPUS‘), Action Strings 2 (also developed by Sonuscore) and tools like Divisimate and Unify. Additionally, we’re starting to see development in the acquisition and management of sample delivery. (ie. Output’s Arcade, OT’s Sine, Cinesamples Musio.) Finally, will MIDI 2.0 gain traction? Time will tell. 



*I italicized players because there doesn’t appear to be another _sampler_ on the market that compares to Kontakt. And I think that’s a bad thing. Much like Intel’s CPU dominance of the last decade, I think it’s led to innovation stagnation.


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## Getsumen (Apr 22, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Few others that I think could have positioned themselves to take the mantle, but now I don't see it happening due to missteps. OT, Cinesamples, EastWest. Cinematic Studio Series has a lot of love, but still would consider them relatively small and with limited future growth potential given their focus / output speed.


Peculiar take. OT on a staffing end is probably one of the largest developers / large ones. I mean Cinematic Studio Series is like what, 2 or 3 people? Orchestral Tools has 27 per linkedin. EastWest has 12. Cinesamples has 15 (And this is after the massive hiring spree they went on)

Granted, this isn't a fully accurate metric to go on considering that a lot of times people are contractors, not full time, the linkedIn might not be updated (not sure how utilized it is outside of the states) 

But yeah OT has is anywhere from like 2-10x the size of every other company you listed on that list. I wouldn't lump them in 



ALittleNightMusic said:


> Yeah I think you’re right in terms of the future market. I think VSL has a shot if they expand free offerings and branch out beyond their traditional classic-oriented stuff (which they’ve started to).
> 
> I think OT is desperately trying to copy Spitfire’s playbook, but executing it very poorly. They need to bring in new leadership IMO.


I don't really see how OT is copying Spitfire's playbook per se. SINE Factory is largely different than labs. Much of what LABS offers is non orchestral / processed. So far Factory is pure orchestral. What else do you see them as copying Spitfire? That's what pops into my head at first thought but I can't think of much else.

As you can see I am a diehard OT fan. 

Anyway that aside, here's my take. I agree with Alex. Native Instruments will probably continue to reign supreme as a VI dev. Now technically they don't produce half the stuff they make since it's in the forms of collaborations where the majority of the work falls on the other company, but looking at pure sales NI is probably miles ahead of everyone else. Lump in their other markets and there's no competition


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## EanS (Apr 22, 2022)

I still can't find that there's much space for Cinematic Focused libraries, is that fad already fading away, right? "Spitfire, _We make_ inspiring sounds and scoring tools for _film_". 

I think as a first that the focus on that statement (like ProjectSam, Audio Imperia) I don't think it will stay in the near future. Indeed I want to bet odds that the pandemic helped a lot to boost this "let's make movie music because we all can relate to both and now we are locked and want to give a shot" . 
So the future and the staples? Quite uncertain, I have been waiting since EW Pop Brass (which... hmmm) that a company develops a decent real horns / winds section for big bands and here we are still talking about Broadway Big Band? 

So if we see Musical Sampling for instance, they just adapted and overcame the Trailer and Adventure movie thang, and now are heading towards more intimate or with personality libraries. Straight Ahead Samples is going all that Jazz several are looking (including me). 

I play guitar, so any effort to any developer to make a guitar sample is second to none to me, although kudos on getting there today, I have PLCK but use a guitar to control and it's way different with a keyboard. I say these because OT and Spitfire are venturing on that realm since they also see that the Cinematic 100 trombones is not as exciting as it was BRAAAAAAAMSS ago. 

VSL is more OG classical oriented and might warm the hearts of many in that department, even over BBCSO and Abbey Road since Abbey Road again calls the movie set magic. 

They probably know already that but still need to milk the cow, lots are getting back on the learning curve and knowing that either is composition skills, or a good pc, or time, or creativity or mojo, but not an additional library that will solve our composing situation. 

We also know we don't need more libraries... but, shhhhhh


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## Reznov981 (Apr 22, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Do you see the hobbyist market pulling back? That would be very interesting.
> 
> I would find it surprising, personally, as making music - for those that gravitate towards it - becomes an inherent need for most. But perhaps once you have a few libraries, you have all you need.
> 
> Also, I think the market size is much larger than the one currently being tapped into by these developers - Spitfire seems to be starting to expand their reach (via things like the Ableton or LUNA integrations). So much more to go. Then again, the only time yearly guitar sales in the past 20 years seem to have taken a big drop is around the recession - which could happen again.


The one thing I think I would personally clarify here is when you said “once you have a few libraries, you have ask you need.” Firstly, have an obligatory lol for the ongoing joke here that you can have enough libraries  but also I do genuinely think even most hobbyists in western countries tend to still fit into the consumerist attitude of “there’s always more to buy… and I’m going to buy it.” 

Imo as long as Spitfire or similar brands hype up new products, even hobbyists will keep coming to buy more than they “need”. Exhibit A: me


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## Reznov981 (Apr 22, 2022)

Vlzmusic said:


> I agree with those who say OT is underrated in this analysis, and even more with those who say that a technical evolution is closing in, and things may change a lot.
> 
> Maybe I missed, but no mention of Performance Samples? I know Jasper is one man army etc. And his release strategy is a bit odd as of late - still he has done some crazy stuff since he started, and I hope all his currently announced projects will come to fruition - if it won't place him on top of the hill, I don't know what will.


I hear you about PS. I think Jasper may be at the top of the hill in terms of respect AND be very profitable. But when we talk about dominating the sampling market, we have to face facts that the range of PS products doesn’t even compare to a company like Spitfire. It feels like Spitfire put out the entire PS catalogue every 2-3 months, and all of their products sell well.
Jasper is king 👑 lol, but not at making money (which is not a criticism, it’s simply the discussion being had in this thread).


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## gsilbers (Apr 22, 2022)

Id say better wait until Soundwide shows their cards first. 
Cuz that 200 ton gorilla is panning some moves.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 22, 2022)

Lots of great discussion!

Re. folks like Aaron Venture / Jasper Blunk, I see them more as influencing the bigger players (potentially) instead of becoming big players in their own right (which I don't think is even their focus). I see Spitfire's Appassionata Strings pretty influenced (at least in concept) by VISTA for example. But with the discussion on modeling being the future, it'll be very interested to see if Spitfire or VSL dip their toes into that at some point or if they stick to "traditional" sampling (which, even JB states his stuff is mostly just traditional sampling techniques). I've got a Kemper, a Slate microphone, UA Unison preamps - fully embracing the modeling technology. But so far, I've found it lacking when it comes to instruments, specifically in tone. Will that gap close in the coming years? Will be interesting to find out.

Similarly, total agreement in the opportunity for somebody to come along and innovate on the user programming side of things. Forget all the keyswitches, even forget all the "just play it in" (which doesn't work as well as you may think with Infinite Brass / Woodwind). Who is going to make a big step forward in usability and articulation management? Here I think folks like Audiobro or Tokyo Scoring Strings have started doing interesting stuff (for example, once you get auto delay compensation in Modern Scoring Strings, it makes using Cinematic Studio Strings feel like a total PITA).

And re. OT, I own a lot of their stuff. Would love for them to get their act together, but I haven't seen it happen. If anything, it seems they've veered off in distracted directions like a new compression format. In 10 years, is mic merge really going to be what is considered a standout feature for a sampler given the advances in drive speeds, throughput bandwidth, and RAM? They seem to have hired a bunch - doesn't equate to the right people or good use of people. EastWest has half the people - but critically, the two Wolfgangs, which I think benefited them significantly with OPUS given how feature-rich that is.

And lastly, yeah agree on NI / Soundwide. Will be one to watch. They should have bought Splice instead of creating Sounds IMO.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 22, 2022)

It’s possible, but I wouldn’t bank on it.

The sample library world is fairly young, and not too long ago, Spitfire was a tiny company while EW towered over them.

Things change, especially in this game when you’ve got smaller developers doing things that Spitfire or VSL haven’t done.

I could see a scenerio where Spitfire eventually becomes like EW (not nearly as active or popular as they once were) and a developer like Audio Imperia are at the top of the game.


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## constaneum (Apr 22, 2022)

I'll say SA and OT. EW seems to be quiet for a long while.


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## dhmusic (Apr 22, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> It’s possible, but I wouldn’t bank on it.
> 
> The sample library world is fairly young, and not too long ago, Spitfire was a tiny company while EW towered over them.
> 
> ...


I find it hard enough to separate reality from Elden Ring lore and this isn't helping...


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## Mike Fox (Apr 22, 2022)

dhmusic said:


> I find it hard enough to separate reality from Elden Ring lore and this isn't helping...


I think it’s easy to take the current market for granted, and underestimate the underdog.

Like i said, the sample library world is relatively young, and things change relatively fast, especially when technology is involved.

Spitfire seems like they’re unstoppable right now, but so did EW when they first released Hollywood Strings (a time when Spitfire was the underdog and barely on the radar).

If someone were to tell you back then that Spitfire would surpass EW in terms of popularity, you’d probably reply with the exact same comment.


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## dhmusic (Apr 22, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> If someone were to tell you back then that Spitfire would surpass EW in terms of popularity, you’d probably reply with the exact same comment.


I probably would. tbh I'm waiting to see if these companies are merely the latest incarnation of the outer gods' divine will


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## tmhuud (Apr 22, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> And re. OT, I own a lot of their stuff. Would love for them to get their act together, but I haven't seen it happen.


u and me both.


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## Lee Blaske (Apr 22, 2022)

I do agree that VSL and Spitfire will be close to the top of the list. But, I also think that 8Dio/SoundPaint, Heavyocity and Native Instruments will be extremely important players. SoundPaint is really coming on strong, and I think Troels really has an ear for fresh and new sounds, and new ways to control things. I'm hoping OT hangs in there. For me, SonicCouture and UVI are two other developers that find some real sweet spots.

It will be interesting to see what the coming years bring in terms of libraries. I think it's important to note that the meat and potatoes stuff has now been covered a zillion times, and covered well. Getting people interested in new libraries of the basic instrument food-groups is going to require new technology that really sets a library apart. It will be interesting to see what role modeling plays in the future.

As far as unique, new sounds go, some developers seem to really have a knack for it. I kind of wonder if a lot of us who have been buying content at regular intervals might reach a point of overload. Where are we going to use all of this stuff??? Some of the packages out there (e.g. NI Komplete Ultimate) are MASSIVE. It's really hard to wrap your noodle around the amount of stuff you get in a package like that.

Troels's model for SoundPaint is actually quite brilliant, and might have quite an edge in the marketplace for those interesting, unique sounds people need. The libraries are very reasonably priced, very easy to purchase, and you download them immediately. Plus, the price stays the same, so you never have any hesitancy regarding "Is this a good time to buy, or should I wait for a sale down the line?" Buy it when you need it.

It also seems like a lot of developers are giving stuff away for free. That will probably continue. These days, a person could do quite a bit with just the free stuff that's out there.

Regarding EW, it does seem that they're pretty much out of the picture. Kind of surprising, considering what a force they once were.

There are some interesting smaller developers out there. I'll have to admit to having some hesitancy when it comes to buying some of those lesser-known products. I worry about support.


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## Rudianos (Apr 22, 2022)

tmhuud said:


> u and me both.


right how hard is it to do 1 patch a week and update it ... my gosh


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 22, 2022)

In my humble opinion, OT is easily the best 'big developer' overall when it comes to creating powerful tools for working composers making good mockups with powerful machines.

Spitfire can't get f-ffff dynamics or close-micing right, Teldex is superior to AIR vis a vis a rich, present and commercial sound without sounding too distant (GREAT for when you want a big wash of sound where sections blur together, NOT so great for instrument solos or being able to hear delicate sounds clearly, where quiet-level counterpoints get completely buried), and CAPSULE is immensely powerful with its crossfading capabilities if not resource-heavy and not very user-friendly.

I think OT could potentially gain a lot of market share... if they can make SINE not only stop being horrible, but good enough to give people like me a reason to move away from Kontakt, which a lot of other projects are dependent upon and I already have a solid understanding of.

But I also haven't taken the plunge with Synchron yet... the talk around here is making it very tempting though.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 22, 2022)

cedricm said:


> NI yes, if they become interested again more in music than milking.
> 
> The samples player market has suffered tremendously from Kontakt and the huge fees for developers. Which means all sample library producers have invested much of their dev time creating players just for the sake of not paying huge fees to NI. Absolutely makes sense from a business perspective, but a huge waste of man hours for no progress at all from the point of view of the customer. Typical example : the "award winning" Spitfire player.
> 
> ...


Yes Cedric, a truly open-source industry-standard sample player would be an _incredible_ leap forward for the Orchestrator in the digital domain.

The fact that N.I. not only charges these fees, but then fails to develop Kontakt in any meaningful way for over a decade, even once its codebase has become ancient, just reeks of toxic corporatism.

To those with some knowledge of programming, how sizeable a task would this actually be?

It is my belief that the lack of industry standards is killing true progress with sample libraries in addition to stifling competition, thus bringing higher prices.


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## CT (Apr 22, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> Spitfire can't get ... close-micing right


Why not?


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 22, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Why not?


I wouldn't know, I've just always felt like their close-miked samples were rather sterile.

If I had to guess, I'd say it's likely that the amount of reverb inside Lyndhurst Hall is so high that they have to use close mics with very narrow polar patterns.

But again, not being a spitfire sound engineer and all... I wouldn't know


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## CT (Apr 22, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> I wouldn't know, I've just always felt like their close-miked samples were rather sterile.
> 
> If I had to guess, I'd say it's likely that the amount of reverb inside Lyndhurst Hall is so high that they have to use close mics with very narrow polar patterns.
> 
> But again, not being a spitfire sound engineer and all... I wouldn't know


Hmm. The close mics they use tend to be pretty much the same that OT and most other developers use....


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## tmhuud (Apr 22, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> right how hard is it to do 1 patch a week and update it ... my gosh


So sarcastic and I'm so glad you know my issues with OT. Ok. Heres a little bit of a rundown. Started using SINE. Watched all of the tutorials. Found out it won't work on any of my PC's. Ok. So I'll just pop everything on my HOST (Mac Pro Mojave, 128 gigs of ram). No problem there right with the OS? Well, Instruments don't download properly, GUI crashes, Scroll bars appear and disappear (And this changes from standalone to Inside Logic Pro) I would list more but this really isn't your business.

Look I hate airing out dirty laundry on forums but folks like you leave me no choice. OT is dealing with all of this through tech support. Its coming along. So don't worry about me. I'm thrilled your one patch a week is working for you.


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## Rudianos (Apr 22, 2022)

tmhuud said:


> So sarcastic and I'm so glad you know my issues with OT. Ok. Heres a little bit of a rundown. Started using SINE. Watched all of the tutorials. Found out it won't work on any of my PC's. Ok. So I'll just pop everything on my HOST (Mac Pro Mojave, 128 gigs of ram). No problem there right with the OS? Well, Instruments don't download properly, GUI crashes, Scroll bars appear and disappear (And this changes from standalone to Inside Logic Pro) I would list more but this really isn't your business.
> 
> Look I hate airing out dirty laundry on forums but folks like you leave me no choice. OT is dealing with all of this through tech support. Its coming along. So don't worry about me. I'm thrilled your one patch a week is working for you.


Oops did not mean to sound sarcastic - I was just venting my frustration with them.

Your good to bring things up. We need to know. Others may be in same boat. That is crazy technical messups on their part.

Even for people who have a functioning SINE (Always been fine to me, PC AMD FX and then Ryzen, 128 GB)... They are not delivering updates on critical instrument failures. 6 months now - its getting crazy. By the time the get to it ... it will be replaced with something else.

To the nature of this forum ... VSL has had a glorious transition IMO. Great products too - well executed. I mean just stunning sounds and UI of every player and download agent. FAST.

Spitfire still has not fixed Abbey Road 2 - been nearly 3 months...

Maybe it is not so simple.


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## Saxer (Apr 22, 2022)

Investors just recently discovered the music making software market. Things will change.

And I think music creation will be forced more into the mass market. Like photo apps everybody will be able to produce their wedding song in any style and sound they want with a few clicks.

Spitfire is at a point of saturation. They can produce more of the stuff they already have and add some new artist names. But it's more or less a variation of the same. If everybody and his dog has access to orchestral sounds the magic will disappear rather soon. Spitfire now is like the zenith phase of MySpace. Nothing is forever.

I think the main development will still come from smaller and new companies. Things like StaffPad, Noteperformer, Celemony, Zynaptic... new and different approaches and maybe new DAW concepts that work more intelligent than a song position line passing note on and note off events. For example: it's rediculous that you still can't conduct a piece in your DAW: controlling tempo and dynamic across all instruments at once by moving yourself like any conductor does. The technology and hardware is there but we are still key switching articulations. Stone age.


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## hayvel (Apr 23, 2022)

Saxer said:


> Investors just recently developed the music making software market. Things will change.
> 
> And I think music creation will be forced more into the mass market. Like photo apps everybody will be able to produce their wedding song in any style and sound they want with a few clicks.
> 
> ...


I agree, there is so much micromanagement to be done by people who actually just want to transform musical ideas into musical pieces. It is not at all ideal for one single human being to not only write music and describe phrasing, but also execute all of this musicianship for every single instrument or section. I guess we will see that part diminish sometime as it did in other digital domains. Software will probably be able to interpret musical ideas and execute 'intelligently' and in awareness of the context and all instruments involved, leaving out the tedious midi editing, modwheel and fader juggling. Virtual performers instead of virtual instruments.

Creating something like this demands alot of resources and technological edge, probably with an amount of machine learning, next to a deep understanding of music and musical performances. I can imagine the big players hiring new tech people or buying specialized tech and hiring the existing employees, or small companies focusing on just the interpretation and performance as a bridge to VIs. But the more traditional and bigger the business, the less agile to new technology and paradigms it is. Which of the big players would fit that role? Might even be one of the DAW developers.

And we are not even talking about skipping the compositional part entirely and have software execute musical ideas based on parameters, descriptions, references or video analysis, which will probably come sometime in that 10 year time frame... Look at what Open AI Dall-E2 can do in the domain of image creation. Or have you heard of AI written novels?

So what I am trying to say is... 10 years is a very long time. Look back 10 years. And now factor in that tech advances exponentially! Yeah....


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## berto (Apr 23, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Spitfire has Abbey Road and AIR locked up and has a great track record for putting out a lot of unique libraries (whether you like them or not, they're still unique - and unique allows them to keep selling to existing customers and to reach new customers).


I think OT and Evolution are more unique than SF and VSL - at least lately they're trying something different than the usual string/WW/brass in different rooms... or even NI collaborating with other devs are doing unique stuff (playbox lately) - 
if the latest SF instrument is unique, then analog strings by Output was more unique before that, and Morphestra by SampleLogic even before that...
smaller developers are even more unique ... 
but then what does unique mean? unique ways of bowing, legato and placing strings in a room? or unique sounds, combinations of sounds, ideas? if the latter is the answer then many smaller devs are outdoing SF and VSL... think Slate+Ash, SoundDust, Audiofier and many more... my 0.5 cents


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## Mike Stone (Apr 23, 2022)

Of all the libraries I've bought recently, the technology behind Aaron Venture's Infinite Brass and Woodwinds seems like the most forward-thinking and promising to me. The playability is simply better than anything else I've tried, while being very expressive and nuance-rich. Keep improving on that concept, and bring more realism and greater tone, that will be a winner IMO. That said, I've never warmed to the sound of audio/sample modeled strings, from my cursory knowledge of them. Maybe things will improve in the future though..

There is certainly a need for more traditional sample-based libraries, but there have to be continuing improvements in the scripting and number of layers and transitions (velocity, vibrato, attack etc.). To simply keep pushing out new libraries, filled with mediocre scripting and programming won't cut it anymore (some of which have already been mentioned), because of the saturation in the market.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 24, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Hmm. The close mics they use tend to be pretty much the same that OT and most other developers use....


Fair enough, but just because they are using the same mics does not mean they are using the same miking techniques, at the same distance, axis, etc. (a lot of them have switchable polar patterns BTW)

I'm not sure what your point is exactly? It's a bit of a nonsensical question frankly, how would I know what is going on in their signal chain to make the close mics sound sterile?

I'll certainly repeat that I feel as if the enormous reverb within LH plays a role vis a vis almost undoubtedly making close-miking harder - from an engineering perspective e.g., the 'verb is massive, so you have to switch to tighter polar patterns and also bring mics in closer in order to get any kind of isolation of the section, which also has the downside of tending to wreak havoc with any stereo-imaging you have going on, but beyond that it's anyone's guess...

It's just my personal opinion, you don't have to agree!


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## CT (Apr 24, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> I'm not sure what your point is exactly?


Just that rather than Spitfire "not being able to get it right," they're probably just not doing it in the specific way you might want. Bit of a difference there.

How to approach spot mics in an orchestral context is a fairly large subject with a number of different solutions and I'm pretty sure the engineers at AIR understand what they're doing. Of course some mics have switchable patterns, though not the ubiquitous-in-this-context 84/184, for example. More than that, or differences in distance/axis etc., my guess is that their preference for a fairly narrow stereo image in the close signals is what comes across as "sterile." Maybe other developers try to present a more flattering-on-its-own close perspective. That's something that can lead to other issues if not done very carefully! So, there's always a tradeoff.

Anyway there are many fascinating session photos from Spitfire and other developers that can be studied to determine much about all this. Definitely recommend it for anyone interested!


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## dcoscina (Apr 25, 2022)

A developer that I see as becoming a formidable presence is Audio Imperia. They continue to put out libraries that I find really inspiring to use.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 25, 2022)

Just to annoy half the folk in this thread...

If we're framing "dominance" in terms of money, user share etc, then the battle will be won on marketing, social media reach and the rest of it. Having a great product won't necessarily translate into success. It needs all the other ugly stuff to go with it.

On that basis alone, the next 5 years belong to Spitfire, short of a massive implosion or costly decision somewhere along the way. Abbey Road will bring new interest at the high end and there are plenty of older products to repackage and shift into the lower market tier.

A major technical paradigm shift in how we interact with Vi's? It would need joint support from the main DAWs...and I can't see that happening any time yet.


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## GtrString (Apr 25, 2022)

Musicians discussing business 

I think Spitfire is the most entertaining company of the bunch


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## muziksculp (Apr 25, 2022)

Spitfire Audio will dominate this industry for the next decade if, and only if they release 

*Abbey Road One Modular Orchestra* this year.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Spitfire Audio will dominate this industry for the next decade if, and only if they release
> 
> *Abbey Road One Modular Orchestra* this year.


When more news on this does drop, I'm looking forward to your reaction as much as anything else.


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 25, 2022)

I am NOT saying that I am right about all of this but I would like to provide some info and my perspective:
1. The stuff coming out of Berlin is very good and when their player improves… I use more of their stuff than Spitfire.
2. I can’t say I’m a huge fan of the throw millions of dollars and make dozens of similar libraries philosophy of Spitfire. I guess it benefits composers that they pump out all those libraries, but why not just make one drop dead one and go to Hawaii? They have financial investors and their finances are public by the way. Its not that easy these days.
3. Lots of VSL talk. VSL was financed by the government. They should have beat the competition in 2003 with all that money, but they screwed it up. And it took many years to get on a better track. They were responsible for legato intervals, though. Great job with that. And they always had great software. Great dedicated people. And it seems like their newer stuff is good. I’m still not convinced that VSL is for the mainstream working composer, though. But maybe that’s changed?
4. As far as most successful, East West Quantum Leap crushed everyone in the 2000s. We sold over 50,000 copies of EWQLSO. It was 3K in the beginning. And we sold tens of thousands of a dozen other libraries. Hollywood Orchestra is now approaching EWQLSO status. Basically EW and Spectrasonics are the only companies that made any real money in the film composer sector of virtual instruments. So the companies you see as the leaders are actually playing catch up.
5. Forums have a history of disconnect. When EWQLSO was making tens of millions and popping up in every studio, people were on Northernsounds claiming that Garritan Personal Orchestra was so much better. People on this forum were claiming that the first release of Cinesamples stuff was better than Hollywood Orchestra and it just wasn’t.
6. I and East West have other projects so I guess we won’t be leaders in this industry in the future. Unless the new projects we have going turn out to be great ones. Who knows? In my opinion, it’s quality over quantity with samples. Play frustration discouraged me from recording stuff for a while, but we have a real engine now.


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## Markrs (Apr 25, 2022)

Nick I love the honesty and perspective you bring as someone that has been in the game for such a long time but still loves to compose and use the products of others.

Personally I think HO and Opus are fantastic and EW did an amazing job!


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## muziksculp (Apr 25, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> Play frustration discouraged me from recording stuff for a while, but we have a real engine now.


So, now that you have a real engine, and it is a fantastic engine  , where is the new content for it ?


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## odod (Apr 25, 2022)

I would love to see all these library companies have the offer like IK's group buy .. so everyone can support each other  and they have the sales as well.


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## RogiervG (Apr 25, 2022)

Markrs said:


> Personally I think HO and Opus are fantastic and EW did an amazing job!


And Quantum Leap  (if i am not wrong, Nick is Quantum Leap, which is a division of East West, and Doug is East West itself?)
It's a bit complicated... i find, how things truely relate to each other. 
But if my statement is correct (@Quantum Leap can you shine a light on this), i think it's fair to acknowledge that credit to QL too.


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## nolotrippen (Apr 25, 2022)

Don't forget N!


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## ptram (Apr 25, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> 3. Lots of VSL talk. VSL was financed by the government. They should have beat the competition in 2003 with all that money, but they screwed it up.


Was there competition for VSL in 2003? They had just launched their first product, inventing everything that would have been gradually developed later. I doubt their goal, at the time, with things like the Performance and Legato Tools, was to be a 'popular' sampling company as was GPO.

Paolo


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## cqd (Apr 25, 2022)

I think spitfire may have grown too big too fast and it might come back and bite them on the ass..


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## nolotrippen (Apr 25, 2022)

cqd said:


> I think spitfire may have grown too big too fast and it might come back and bite them on the ass..


That rhymes! Set it to music.


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## cqd (Apr 25, 2022)

nolotrippen said:


> That rhymes! Set it to music.


It's the title of the 2nd movement in my third symphony..


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## RogiervG (Apr 25, 2022)

nolotrippen said:


> That rhymes! Set it to music.


how does that rhyme?  "Fast" "ass" not even close with pronunciation or writing


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## cqd (Apr 25, 2022)

I'm a poet but I wasn't aware of it!..


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## Trash Panda (Apr 25, 2022)

In 10 years, my sample library developer will beat up your sample library developer.


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## RogiervG (Apr 25, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> In 10 years, my sample library developer will beat up your sample library developer.


No! mine will beat up yours harder...


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## muziksculp (Apr 25, 2022)

A forum post 10 years from now (posted on April 25th 2032) :

Quote :

"_ Oh.. do you remember when we used traditional sample libraries 10 years ago, LOL.. developers like OT, VSL, Spitfire, Audio Imperia, CineSamples, ...etc. when we had to use key-switches to change articulations, and had to use insane amounts of SSD space to house these primitive libraries ? 

We are so lucky that we are using AI-based Hybrid Modeling technology now, I can't imagine using these dinosaur era Sample libraries in 2032._ "


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## ptram (Apr 25, 2022)

cqd said:


> I think spitfire may have grown too big too fast and it might come back and bite them on the ass..


They are very sensitive to the actual trends. If they do something wrong, I bet they are ready to fix it and invent something else.

At the moment they are getting cash flows from several very different sources: from a solid and steady orchestral library like BBCSO, to a very attractive exercise in style like the Abbey Road series, to the all-in-one Albions, to the small 'kits' tied to some composers that are probably selling, if not for the value of the tool, for the glamour of the name.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they sell sample libraries also to non-musicians.

Paolo


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 25, 2022)

ptram said:


> They are very sensitive to the actual trends. If they do something wrong, I bet they are ready to fix it and invent something else.
> 
> At the moment they are getting cash flows from several very different sources: from a solid and steady orchestral library like BBCSO, to a very actrarrive exercise in style like the Abbey Road series, to the all-in-one Albions, to the small 'kits' tied to some composers that are probably selling, if not for the value of the tool, for the glamour of the name.
> 
> ...


The overhead the company has must be eye watering by now. Yet I see they're still advertising for more staff.. Surely next step would be to snap up some smaller devs? That would make some entertaining forum threads..


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## jbuhler (Apr 25, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> The overhead the company has must be eye watering by now. Yet I see they're still advertising for more staff..


advertising for more staff suggests their cash flow continues to be positive and likely still showing healthy growth.


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## Braveheart (Apr 25, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> advertising for more staff suggests their cash flow continues to be positive and likely still showing healthy growth.


Who knows? Look what happened to Time+Space…


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 25, 2022)

Braveheart said:


> Who knows? Look what happened to Time+Space…



Yes, you can still have vacancies even if you are struggling. In fact, if the business were struggling, they might have more vacancies as people left.

Not that I'm suggesting that's the case here.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 25, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Just that rather than Spitfire "not being able to get it right," they're probably just not doing it in the specific way you might want. Bit of a difference there.
> 
> How to approach spot mics in an orchestral context is a fairly large subject with a number of different solutions and I'm pretty sure the engineers at AIR understand what they're doing. Of course some mics have switchable patterns, though not the ubiquitous-in-this-context 84/184, for example. More than that, or differences in distance/axis etc., my guess is that their preference for a fairly narrow stereo image in the close signals is what comes across as "sterile." Maybe other developers try to present a more flattering-on-its-own close perspective. That's something that can lead to other issues if not done very carefully! So, there's always a tradeoff.
> 
> Anyway there are many fascinating session photos from Spitfire and other developers that can be studied to determine much about all this. Definitely recommend it for anyone interested!


This is a fair analysis, and I actually agree with it - particularly on the point that the SF guys know their stuff.

The 'narrowness' you refer to is more or less my main beef, because as I see it that type of mixing is rarely ever used for an intimate, detailed and cinematic sound (what you generally want from close mics).

I'd actually describe most of the SF Close as 'monophonic', as opposed to just narrow, with those in the chamber strings being the worst offenders.

But to give credit where it's due, I quite like the Close mics in Tundra, and I _really_ like the way they handled it with NEO, because it gives me two signals I can mix and pan to Kontakt OUTs to get a nice stereo image going.

I would gladly take the SSD space hit from future Spitfire libraries if they would include the 2 Close mics by default.

Cheers


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 25, 2022)

ptram said:


> Was there competition for VSL in 2003? They had just launched their first product, inventing everything that would have been gradually developed later. I doubt their goal, at the time, with things like the Performance and Legato Tools, was to be a 'popular' sampling company as was GPO.
> 
> Paolo


We were around way before VSL. In 2003 VSL showed up at NAMM with the Cube silent stage. We had just completed EWQLSO. We were frankly scared that the behemoth was going to wipe us out. But it turned out the opposite. The dry sound was not popular with everyone. EWQLSO was the biggest software release in the history of orchestral virtual instruments, by a mile.


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 25, 2022)

I am recording a huge new library for OPUS that you might like. Probably out before Christmas.


muziksculp said:


> So, now that you have a real engine, and it is a fantastic engine  , where is the new content for it ?


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 25, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> And Quantum Leap  (if i am not wrong, Nick is Quantum Leap, which is a division of East West, and Doug is East West itself?)
> It's a bit complicated... i find, how things truely relate to each other.
> But if my statement is correct (@Quantum Leap can you shine a light on this), i think it's fair to acknowledge that credit to QL too.


This is the new bio page at East West. My bio explains a lot of it. We just leave out all the mistakes we made over the years.






About EastWest Sounds | #1 Producer of Virtual Instruments


With over 100 int'l awards, EastWest virtual instruments are considered to be the industry's best plugins available & used by film composers & audio engineers.




www.soundsonline.com


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 25, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> This is the new bio page at East West. My bio explains a lot of it. We just leave out all the mistakes we made over the years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Phoenix and Rogers have never been interested in rehashing old ideas. Every product has been an attempt to bring something new to the table." - I think this really captures how I feel about Hollywood Choirs. Still blown away by it from a technical standpoint. And Hollywood Strings remains one of the most deeply sampled libraries - still the only library (I believe) that allows you to change the string a note is played on for example.

Understand that you and EW have different focuses and priorities now (and no harm in that, especially after many years in the business - and already having been the most popular developer). Still, it would be interesting to see what EW could do going forward - given the general culture focused on more innovative / unique approaches to sampling and given that OPUS is a really great player (long overdue IMO - wonder how the industry would've shaken out had OPUS been launched 5 years ago).


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## Trash Panda (Apr 25, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> No! mine will beat up yours harder...


Yeah, well my sample library's dad will beat up your sample library's dad. THBBBBBBBBT!


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## Robo Rivard (Apr 25, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> We were around way before VSL. In 2003 VSL showed up at NAMM with the Cube silent stage. We had just completed EWQLSO. We were frankly scared that the behemoth was going to wipe us out. But it turned out the opposite. The dry sound was not popular with everyone. EWQLSO was the biggest software release in the history of orchestral virtual instruments, by a mile.


Haha, my first EW library was EWQLSO Gold (the basic version). I didn't know how to use it, since the sound was so much better than everything I already owned!... I had a Dell computer with 1 Gb of Ram onboard at the time, and I had to rely on MIDI tone modules (with 8 Mb of data) to get something done. I was using the first version of HALion as a sampler, with libraries in AKAI format. There was no comparison. EW ruled!  

I just added Stormdrum 3 to my template, and it sure sounds like a superior product I'll be using for a long time.


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## Spid (Apr 26, 2022)

I don't want to sound harsh, so please anyone, don't take this personally. I think a lot of people here are living in a VI-C bubble, meaning they're too focus to what they're doing and aren't really objective.

I'm a complete noob when it comes to composing, so I do consider myself as a very "lambda user"... and I doubt any of the libraries developers you're mentioning here are really become the major players in 10 years... 10 years way too long, and many things can change by then. 

High end level composing will not become mainstream, that's a very narrow market in comparison to large markets such pop charts, etc... I did use plenty of libraries and plugins in the past, but for my "urban style" use, I was perfectly fine using libraries that you would qualify as "imperfect" for composers standards (and people here).

I do believe NI Komplete is a major actor, same with IK Multimedia, or Eastwest. I know, for a lot of people here, their orchestra samples might be considered as "bad", but it's because you're not a beginner and you don't represent the mainstream market.

I hate subscription, and yet I know that's the way for the future for software developers. That's why when I wanted to start doing more "composer style" music, I did subscribe to Eastwest. And I'm pretty happy with my choice so far, except I wish the OPUS player wouldn't spike CPU on M1 Max computer. So unless VSL and Spitfire would go the all-you-can-eat subscription path, I doubt they will be the dominant developers for mass market.

It doesn't mean they won't be relevant for composers, like they already are now... like many others. I just think if we will see more high-end orchestral sample libraries become more mainstream, it might come from developers we don't except now and we don't even notice in the narrow market of composers today. That's two different markets with two different goals and therefore two different "products".

For instance, to include some "orchestral sounds" in urban music, I often used stuff such Symphobia, because they have nice "ensemble" patch like we had in old hardware workstation keyboards.

Also, let's not forget with the power we have now, it's still just a fraction to what we will get 10 years from now... and with more power we can expect to have more "modeling" to reproduce acoustic instruments... maybe even include some kind of AI like someone joked about it already, to detect all playing style to apply appropriate articulation, or have more "interpretation" of the notes like a real musician would in an orchestra situation. 

Long story short, we can't know what will happen in 10 years, and composers aren't mass market and representative to what will dominate the music industry. What will dominate the music industry will be (unfortunately) what is the most popular and the most mass market (because of revenues). So we have more chance to see DAW with AI where you can just press couple buttons to have parts of song already built for you. That the kind of stuff we see with drummers already, like in Logic. Imagine this kind of "DAW for dummies" features to be applied to other part such Bass, Guitar, Accompaniment, etc... like we see in Arranger keyboard, but times 1,000....

TL;DR: We can't know the future, but one sure thing, composers aren't mainstream and therefore won't dominate the music industry.

Sorry for the long "rant"... and please, don't take this personally, this is nothing to critic any developers, nor any users and composers... and I won't pretend to be qualified to talk in composers name, I'm just coming from a mainstream point of view.


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## ptram (Apr 26, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> We were frankly scared that the behemoth was going to wipe us out. But it turned out the opposite. The dry sound was not popular with everyone.


The way publicly funded projects work, in Europe, may seem a bit odd to an American. What is expected is not that the public money is funding something _commercially successful_, but something _innovative_.

This may seem suicidal to an American. Actually, most of the times it looks that way to us Europeans as well. Take Nokia and what happened to the their (heavily publicly subsidized) cell phone sector. On the other side, Apple has largely benefitted from publicly funded researches, and was able to transform them into a huge _commercial success_, as well as into _innovation_.

I guess the initial goal for the VSL project, from this side of the pond, was not to create a particularly successful business, but a sustainable one that could support the publicly funded innovation. For what I can see, they have been much more successful, in this goal, than most of the other publicly funded projects I know.

Paolo


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> I don't want to sound harsh, so please anyone, don't take this personally. I think a lot of people here are living in a VI-C bubble, meaning they're too focus to what they're doing and aren't really objective.
> 
> I'm a complete noob when it comes to composing, so I do consider myself as a very "lambda user"... and I doubt any of the libraries developers you're mentioning here are really become the major players in 10 years... 10 years way too long, and many things can change by then.
> 
> ...


The initial post and the ensuing conversation has never spelled out the domain in which dominance is being discussed. That's not a bad thing, since it is good to keep it fluid and up for discussion; and the shape, the sectors of the market will be changing over time. But, I take it, that most people have been thinking about dominance within some field far more specific than the music industry as a whole. At the most, this domain would be dominance within music for the composition of music. Some people may have in mind software for professionals, others for media composers, still others for orchestral composers. Who knows?!

Where a company appeals beyond the realm of 'composers' to 'beat makers', 'song writers' and so on, that may contribute to their commercial and technological influence within any subset of music. And companies may be interested in expanding into other market sectors.

I certainly wouldn't want to hazard any guesses about developments within software music creation, or the companies that produce them, over the next ten years. But it is something that people who work in the business have to have some concern about if they are looking for sustainability. And the business they are in is going to be more specific than trying to appeal to every market sector within music creation, though some will want to expand.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 26, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> I am NOT saying that I am right about all of this but I would like to provide some info and my perspective:
> 1. The stuff coming out of Berlin is very good and when their player improves… I use more of their stuff than Spitfire.
> 2. I can’t say I’m a huge fan of the throw millions of dollars and make dozens of similar libraries philosophy of Spitfire. I guess it benefits composers that they pump out all those libraries, but why not just make one drop dead one and go to Hawaii? They have financial investors and their finances are public by the way. Its not that easy these days.
> 3. Lots of VSL talk. VSL was financed by the government. They should have beat the competition in 2003 with all that money, but they screwed it up. And it took many years to get on a better track. They were responsible for legato intervals, though. Great job with that. And they always had great software. Great dedicated people. And it seems like their newer stuff is good. I’m still not convinced that VSL is for the mainstream working composer, though. But maybe that’s changed?
> ...


I clearly remember when EWQLSO came out, and how blown away I was. There was nothing like it, and I really feel it has stood the test of time. Even after all the libraries I’ve acquired over the years, i still reach for SO on a regular basis (i actually mention multiple times in my most recent YouTube video how great of a library EWQLSO is).

To this day, I don’t think there has been a library as ambitious, and quality content filled as EWQLSO. Every time i open the library up, I’m instantly reminded of how vast the content is. The fact that you have brass, winds, percussion, AND multiple sized string sections (with some gorgeous articulations) as well a beautiful harp, solo instruments, and a very useable piano all in the same library is like a unicorn nowadays. Btw, that big bass sustains patch?! Easily one of my all time favorite patches of any library. Damn, i remember how earth shattering it was when i first played it. All of the fx will always be go-to’s of mine as well. 

Then HS was released and EW once again changed the game, because it was definitely ahead of its time, which is why HS still competes with a lot of modern string libs.

Unfortunately, a lot of people here weren’t around to experience those days when EW changed the game multiple times, and instead seem to be under the impression that Spitfire is eternal and invincible. Don’t get me wrong, i like Spitfire enough, but they do a lot of fancy marketing, and a lot of name dropping (Hans Zimmer, Bernard Herrmann, Eric Whitacre, Olafur Arnolds, Lyndhurst, BBC, Abbey Road, etc., etc.), yet I rarely find their libraries actually match the caliber of their presentation, unfortunately.

With the new opus engine, I’m seriously hoping for a library from EW that would once again change the game like SO and HS did. 🤞


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## Mike Greene (Apr 26, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> 3. Lots of VSL talk. VSL was financed by the government. They should have beat the competition in 2003 with all that money, but they screwed it up.


I'm not privy to their numbers, but I wonder if they really did. Bear in mind that they sold their stuff at a very high price point. I paid over 10 grand for the Symphonic Cube (or whatever they called it) and bought a bunch more add-ons after that. Contrast with $400 that I paid for EWQLSO Gold. (During the group buy, which I imagine is a big chunk of those 50,000 copies.)

No doubt their sales quantity (number of units) was lower than East West's, and I wouldn't be surprised if the total dollar amount might be lower, too. But I'm guessing not by much. A whole lot of composers bought the full packages, because that's what a real composer (even D-List ones like me) needed to do to stay relevant. Plus, as Paul told me at the time, the real volume came from all the doctors and lawyers who bought it, too. At $10k a pop, money adds up fast.

Don't get me wrong, you're totally right about EW being king. There's no denying that, and I have a ton of respect for what you and Doug accomplished.

But even in hindsight, I'm not sure VSL would change anything they did. Even the silent stage, which given how revolutionary legato was at the time, hence the controlled environment it required, especially given the bad results we saw afterwards with attempts at legato in wet settings from other companies, I don't think VSL (or their customers) regrets anything.


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## gsilbers (Apr 26, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> I am NOT saying that I am right about all of this but I would like to provide some info and my perspective:
> 1. The stuff coming out of Berlin is very good and when their player improves… I use more of their stuff than Spitfire.
> 2. I can’t say I’m a huge fan of the throw millions of dollars and make dozens of similar libraries philosophy of Spitfire. I guess it benefits composers that they pump out all those libraries, but why not just make one drop dead one and go to Hawaii? They have financial investors and their finances are public by the way. Its not that easy these days.
> 3. Lots of VSL talk. *VSL was financed by the government*. They should have beat the competition in 2003 with all that money, but they screwed it up. And it took many years to get on a better track. They were responsible for legato intervals, though. Great job with that. And they always had great software. Great dedicated people. And it seems like their newer stuff is good. I’m still not convinced that VSL is for the mainstream working composer, though. But maybe that’s changed?
> ...



Yeah, here in 'merica its private funding... 

which btw since you guys have some dough.. can you finance Pulsesetter-sounds? Hiring orchestras/players for sound design only stuff is expensive! (Or sublease the samples for processing laso works) 


And i still remeber 2004 namm (or 2005?) with DVZ strings pro and how cool it was at the time and never heard of them again. Theres always new small and cool stuff at namm, you never know what will make it or not.


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 26, 2022)

ptram said:


> The way publicly funded projects work, in Europe, may seem a bit odd to an American. What is expected is not that the public money is funding something _commercially successful_, but something _innovative_.
> 
> This may seem suicidal to an American. Actually, most of the times it looks that way to us Europeans as well. Take Nokia and what happened to the their (heavily publicly subsidized) cell phone sector. On the other side, Apple has largely benefitted from publicly funded researches, and was able to transform them into a huge _commercial success_, as well as into _innovation_.
> 
> ...


No, I’m jealous. The fact that Austria funded a great endeavor like VSL is amazing. It just scared us at the time because we had spent over a million bucks and a year of our time on the first phase of EWQLSO and on paper it sounded like we were about to get our hat handed to us.


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 26, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> I'm not privy to their numbers, but I wonder if they really did. Bear in mind that they sold their stuff at a very high price point. I paid over 10 grand for the Symphonic Cube (or whatever they called it) and bought a bunch more add-ons after that. Contrast with $400 that I paid for EWQLSO Gold. (During the group buy, which I imagine is a big chunk of those 50,000 copies.)
> 
> No doubt their sales quantity (number of units) was lower than East West's, and I wouldn't be surprised if the total dollar amount might be lower, too. But I'm guessing not by much. A whole lot of composers bought the full packages, because that's what a real composer (even D-List ones like me) needed to do to stay relevant. Plus, as Paul told me at the time, the real volume came from all the doctors and lawyers who bought it, too. At $10k a pop, money adds up fast.
> 
> ...


What I didn’t spell out is that this is not a huge industry. East West is not a big company. It’s that way on purpose so that costs are kept to a reasonable level. When new companies appear with big bank accounts, it can be intimidating. and EWQLSO was $3K in the beginning.


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## cel4145 (Apr 26, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> It'll be very interesting to see how long the "white collar hobbyist market," which I think has probably helped out a lot of developers over the last two years or so (and has led to a certain change in marketing etc., but that's another story), persists. Without that, I wonder what everyone other than the few with clear long-term plans and some measure of assured financial stability will do.


Consider the 70s, 80s, 90s and rock music, where many teenagers and 20-somethings picked up the electric guitar as their first/primary instrument for fun, or with dreams of becoming a success. And now many of them have grown up. Guitar playing is still their hobby, and many are buying more expensive custom guitars and expensive amps that they could not afford when younger.

Thanks to the DAWs, EDM, and the advancements in computer processing and storage, creating electronic music is arguably the new popular instrument among teenagers and 20-somethings of the last ten years. Not saying some of them aren't still going with guitar. But music production with a DAW is the new cool thing to do for many of them, just like playing electric guitar was. 

So more and more of them are learning to produce electronic music, either as hobby or with dreams of hitting it big on Spotify. And as they get older, some of them will continue to pursue it as a hobby and have a lot more disposable income. 

However, I don't know if that will translate into the purchase of expensive orchestral sample instruments. But I think we can expect that many of these current bedroom producers will continue to have an effect on the overall plugin and DAW market in years to come.


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## Troels Folmann (Apr 26, 2022)

And we shall all sound the same ...


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## Ben (Apr 26, 2022)

That’s an interesting discussion, and we’re happy to be a part of it!

Just thought I’d correct a misconception about the financial situation of Vienna Symphonic Library:



Quantum Leap said:


> No, I’m jealous. The fact that Austria funded a great endeavor like VSL is amazing. It just scared us at the time because we had spent over a million bucks and a year of our time on the first phase of EWQLSO and on paper it sounded like we were about to get our hat handed to us.


We are a privately funded company and were lucky to have found a great investor who always believed in Herb’s vision and who is still a shareholder of the company.
Vienna Symphonic Library has paid back the full investment with interest years ago.

Government funding would have been a dream, but it wasn’t even possible to get a loan from any bank in Austria for such a business idea, no matter how many prices it has won.

Thought this would be important to put things into perspective


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## CT (Apr 26, 2022)

cel4145 said:


> Consider the 70s, 80s, 90s and rock music, where many teenagers and 20-somethings picked up the electric guitar as their first/primary instrument for fun, or with dreams of becoming a success. And now many of them have grown up. Guitar playing is still their hobby, and many are buying more expensive custom guitars and expensive amps that they could not afford when younger.
> 
> Thanks to the DAWs, EDM, and the advancements in computer processing and storage, creating electronic music is arguably the new popular instrument among teenagers and 20-somethings of the last ten years. Not saying some of them aren't still going with guitar. But music production with a DAW is the new cool thing to do for many of them, just like playing electric guitar was.
> 
> ...


Well actually, given the comment above regarding the doctor/lawyer market even back during the early VSL days, I guess this is something that's been true from the start and may well continue to be. It's just that now maybe some developers are more specifically angling things towards those people than before, and prices in general going down means it isn't just that particularly affluent hobbyist crowd that can buy in anymore.


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## CT (Apr 26, 2022)

Troels Folmann said:


> And we shall all sound the same ...


Because of the same samples being used by a lot of people? I kind of feel like if that's _all_ that's going to set one's music apart, there are other problems to deal with....


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 26, 2022)

Edward Givens said:


> Is that like being a real boy, Pinochio? Or a real man? What a snotty thing to say. I 'll remember that next time I consider spending $200 on one of your apparently irrelevant to "real composers" products.



I think you've misinterpreted the phrase in context. He is talking about feeling pressure to buy those libraries in order to be taken seriously professionally, where he would be competing for jobs with people who had them. There were fewer libraries at the time, and bigger developments happening that was transforming what was possible.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 26, 2022)

Edward Givens said:


> Is that like being a real boy, Pinochio? Or a real man? What a snotty thing to say. I 'll remember that next time I consider spending $200 on one of your apparently irrelevant to "real composers" products.


He said that's what they _needed to do _(past tense) to remain relevant back then. You know, back when the alternatives were synthy sounding Romplers.


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 26, 2022)

Ben said:


> That’s an interesting discussion, and we’re happy to be a part of it!
> 
> Just thought I’d correct a misconception about the financial situation of Vienna Symphonic Library:
> 
> ...


?? You do realize that everybody thought you got a grant from the government? That’s all wrong? Wow. I guess never assume anything in this world. I was told this first hand from someone at Ilio in 2003 at the NAMM show. Sorry. It says that in google as well.


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 26, 2022)

About sounding the same (someone mentioned that): no matter what I do, my stuff never sounds like Thomas’ so I think it’s all about the orchestration, expression, timing, reverb and mixing. I don’t think we should ever worry about that. The tools are there for any sound you can imagine.


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## Composer 2021 (Apr 26, 2022)

Orchestral Tools has no chance of dominating unless they seriously rework their pricing structure. Being able to buy individual patches on SINE libraries is the only saving grace. Hobbyists simply do not have the money for their products. They need to reduce the price of their major libraries and have sales on _everything _multiple times a year like the other major players.

I can search for libraries from various companies and find dozens of YouTube examples of their libraries. But not OT. There a very few videos of people going through the Berlin series or showing off projects with them. I’d wager that the StaffPad versions of the libraries are more over YouTube than the full versions.

I think Spitfire will continue to prevail unless something strange happens. Cinesamples might grow from Musio. I don't have anything to do with VSL so I can’t comment on them.


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## Evans (Apr 26, 2022)

Composer 2021 said:


> Hobbyists simply do not have the money for their products.


I don't think we can make blanket statements like that.


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## Saxer (Apr 26, 2022)

Evans said:


> I don't think we can make blanket statements like that.


A lot of hobbyists are probably earning more cash than most pro composers.


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## Evans (Apr 26, 2022)

Saxer said:


> A lot of hobbyists are probably earning more cash than most pro composers.


Some hobbyists more than some pro composers, sure. And vice versa! Lots of people out there. Lots of careers.


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## Ben (Apr 26, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> ?? You do realize that everybody thought you got a grant from the government? That’s all wrong? Wow. I guess never assume anything in this world. I was told this first hand from someone at Ilio in 2003 at the NAMM show. Sorry. It says that in google as well.


I double checked before posting, there was no government money involved


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## aetherborn7 (Apr 26, 2022)

You may be right. However, what I'd honestly love to see happen is for a guy like Aaron Venture and his Infinite series to become more prevalent. If say, he could develop the super playable instruments that he is developing now and then take a page from Orchestral Tools' book with the a la carte sample selling, I'd be a willing customer forever. I simply have not seen more playable brass and woodwinds WITHOUT having tons of key-switches. We need more modelled/sampled hybrid library players in the game. No one's really putting serious investment dollars behind them, though. Just my two cents.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 26, 2022)

Wonder if we'll start seeing some market consolidation and acquisitions. For example, Spitfire aqui-hiring Aaron Venture. Depends on how much value they see in his approach and expertise.


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## Composer 2021 (Apr 26, 2022)

BREAKING: Elon Musk has just acquired Spitfire Audio, Orchestral Tools, Cinesamples, Vienna Symphonic Library, Native Instruments, Cinematic Sampling...click article to read more.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 26, 2022)

Spid said:


> I don't want to sound harsh, so please anyone, don't take this personally. I think a lot of people here are living in a VI-C bubble, meaning they're too focus to what they're doing and aren't really objective.
> 
> I'm a complete noob when it comes to composing, so I do consider myself as a very "lambda user"... and I doubt any of the libraries developers you're mentioning here are really become the major players in 10 years... 10 years way too long, and many things can change by then.
> 
> ...


Yeah kind of along the same lines as what Bee said above, I don't think the argument was specifically 'Sample developers will dominate the music industry' - bit of a strawman there, but your point is certainly well taken and is of course completely true.

The implication was certainly 'Spitfire and VSL will be the dominant devs for the next decade', _within_ the niche market of Sample libs.

You raise an interesting topic with the subscription models, though:

Has it occurred to you that perhaps the very nature of Spitfire/VSL selling such niche products, that their clientele is so limited that a subscription service might actually _lose_ money for them?

I'm not saying that's for sure the case, but assuming only 5,000 - 10,000 or so people per year buy their new releases (total guess), would they really stand to entice enough additional users with a $25/mo. sub service to cover those losses?

I'm guessing they've done the math themselves to some degree.

Also there is the peculiar fact that composers for media kind of _need_ to have ownership of the samples, for all sorts of arrangement, editing, and distribution purposes.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 26, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> But it is something that people who work in the business have to have some concern about if they are looking for sustainability. And the business they are in is going to be more specific than trying to appeal to every market sector within music creation, though some will want to expand.


Well look what happened when N.I. did exactly this, they realized almost overnight that the return of funding ongoing Kontakt development was a literal drop in the bucket compared to all the MASCHINE expacs and countless REAKTOR synth rehashes they could sell.

As a result Kontakt is not only running on dinosaur code with an engine that's over a decade old, but continues to makes modern developers pay out the _nose_ to build products on top of that dinosaur code, to the point that the big developers jump ship and make their own bug-filled, rarely updated sample players, leaving us users to pick up the pieces with an increasingly awkward (regressive?) workflow...

What we needed was _more_ industry standards, and now because of N.I.s virtual abandonment of Kontakt (while retaining their corporate asshole-ism), we have even less.

That's why I feel like it's an either/or thing regarding top-shelf sample libraries vs. loop libraries, etc.:

I can open Stylus RMX or Omnisphere and make a looped beat in about 5 minutes.
I can produce ~30 seconds of full orchestration in about 5 hours.

You can certainly incorporate some EM elements into Orchestration, and vice versa, but the tools being used on a regular basis don't overlap that much, and VSL, SF, OT etc. have carved out their market share by realizing this better than any of us.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 26, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Wonder if we'll start seeing some market consolidation and acquisitions. For example, Spitfire aqui-hiring Aaron Venture. Depends on how much value they see in his approach and expertise.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 26, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


>



I know you worry about what Spitfire will do to his libraries, but the other way to think about it is imagine Andy Blaney getting Aaron's libraries under his fingertips or Paul being very excited to showcase the playability. Could go a long way to introduce Aaron's work to more and more people. Plus, Spitfire has the pockets to keep funding new recordings / improvements of the core concept.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 26, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I know you worry about what Spitfire will do to his libraries, but the other way to think about it is imagine Andy Blaney getting Aaron's libraries under his fingertips or Paul being very excited to showcase the playability. Could go a long way to introduce Aaron's work to more and more people. Plus, Spitfire has the pockets to keep funding new recordings / improvements of the core concept.


You're a monster.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 26, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> You're a monster.


Nah - just a realist.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 26, 2022)

Developers like OT and 8Dio have already acquired libraries from other developers. Wouldn’t surprise me if Spitfire ended up doing the same in attempt to monopolize the market.

Money talks.

We’re also seeing developers team up (Chorus being the most recent example).

Could become a trend of some sort.


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## Vik (Apr 27, 2022)

Fortunetelling certainly isn't my cup of tea, but in order to try to figure out who will be the dominant sample library developer the next decade, we need to define 'dominant'. 

Most profitable? That's mainly interesting for those who work there/own these companies. Produce the largest number of sample libraries? For users, that's not so relevant either, for several reasons – one being the complaints about certain developers who keep making new libraries instead of fixing what needs to be fixed in their existing products. Best sounding samples? No, because 'sound' can't be seen in isolation – lack of articulations, bugginess or weak UI are also important parameters.

OTOH, if we look at who's making the _overall_ best orchestral libraries, the discussion becomes more interesting. My semi-blind guess is that those who will succeed in making the overall best libraries the next decade are the most hardworking among those which _try_ to succeed in making the best libraries, and that group is quite exclusive. 

QLEW, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools and others have all done great stuff, Performance Samples are working on some very ambitious libraries, and many Audiobro customers seem to be very satisfied with their libraries. IMHO the real winners among the VI companies will be those work hardest, have the highest ambitions,_ and who continue to improve their existing libraries when needed_. Making truly modular libraries also helps, just like offering resale and trial period/demo versions. 

The recipe for ending up as someone who will _not_ end up as, in a good way, 'dominating' this market is much simpler: just keep releasing new products without fixing issues with the existing ones.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 27, 2022)

Vik said:


> Fortunetelling certainly isn't my cup of tea, but in order to try to figure out who will be the dominant sample library developer the next decade, we need to define 'dominant'.
> 
> Most profitable? That's mainly interesting for those who work there/own these companies. Produce the largest number of sample libraries? For users, that's not so relevant either, for several reasons – one being the complaints about certain developers who keep making new libraries instead of fixing what needs to be fixed in their existing products. Best sounding samples? No, because 'sound' can't be seen in isolation – lack of articulations, bugginess or weak UI are also important parameters.
> 
> ...


Wait, if we define 'dominant' as making the best libraries, then the developer making the best libraries will be dominant; and the way to do that is try hard both at developing libraries and to keep improving existing libraries?

I think that you are not making a prediction so much as trying Jedi mind tricks on the developers in this forum.

Well done!


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## Vik (Apr 27, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I think that you are not making a prediction so much as trying Jedi mind tricks on the developers in this forum.
> 
> Well done!


Correct.


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## babylonwaves (Apr 27, 2022)

dts_marin said:


> With so many members in this forum we could crowdfund an open source sample library and let them pound sand with 30 dynamic layers and 100 RRs.


why don't you do it? sounds easy enough


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## dts_marin (Apr 27, 2022)

babylonwaves said:


> why don't you do it? sounds easy enough


Never said it was easy. That's a whole acre worth of strawman right there.

Believe or not risking hard earned money on products without refund policies, bad quality control and nonexistent maintenance is equally hard and devastating especially for people like me that don't live in a first world country but are forced to compete professionally with people that do so.

I can't afford a single bad purchase. This has ruined my life. It's not fun working as a composer anymore. Gambling would feel more reasonable. 

You may feel that I'm not worthy of having a career but my pocket doesn't correlate with my musical skills.

*Basic respect* towards customers is all I ask for. Apparently it's way too much.

I'm willing to pay the bandwidth cost for downloads with a markup price and even an anti-piracy fee. That still isn't enough for them. They want zero risks and maximum profit.

Imagine delivering cues to clients unfinished, with glitches in the audio. Is that excusable for a composer? Hell no. You get fired.

Whereas the company slaps a legalese EULA in your face and they are good to go.

Hard development doesn't justify greed and fraud.


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## babylonwaves (Apr 27, 2022)

dts_marin said:


> Never said it was easy. That's a whole acre worth of strawman right there.


there's a reason for the smiley I've put at the end of the paragraph. good luck!


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 27, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Nah - just a realist.


Perhaps, but like Thanos said, reality is often disappointing.

It's not that what you laid out couldn't happen, but in the vast majority of cases it doesn't.

What nearly always happens is:


_Small/indie dev. gets bought out by behemoth_
_All the innovation that made small/indie dev desirable in the first place gets lost in the 'streamlining' process (more profit, yuk yuk!) _
_Small/indie dev. begins its new life as a glorified mascot, with its shiny legacy branding ensuring continued purchasing interest without necessarily providing continued innovation_
The reasons for why this is so are legion, but just consider for the moment that humans are idiosyncratic beings, each with their own way of working at a 'peak performance' level.

It's the classic case of 'too many cooks'; rarely will two creative teams ever see eye-to-eye.

They can collaborate, sure, but that's just like having guests over for the weekend, a good time is had by all, but by the time Monday morning rolls around you're glad to have them gone and the natural order of your private world restored.

With that in mind and considering the dozens of metrics that have to align in order for those two entities _not _to clash in a spectacular way (vision for sound, aesthetics, use-case, etc.), the miracle is that anything good continues to happen at all.

Of course there are the 'match made in heaven' scenarios, but IME they are decidedly rare in the context of buyouts


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 27, 2022)

dts_marin said:


> The most successful one will be the first to dabble into an open source sampler and samples. There are a lot of free products but those aren't open source. Cost isn't the problem. The problem is the restrictive licencing and abhorrent EULAs that are commonplace in this industry.
> 
> Also the lack of Linux support is very sad. There are DAWs with Linux support nowadays but no usable sample libraries, especially orchestral ones. We are very dependent on Microsoft & Apple.
> 
> ...


Agreed - something is needed to upset the status quo, which has, as you say, become rather exploitive.

An open-source library might be a nice shove in the right direction for all the developers sitting on their laurels, but an open-source, modernized sample player/Kontakt replacement with a highly efficient sound engine would be a veritable mule kick, and spark a new age of innovation if it was worthy of becoming the new industry standard.

If I had the money I'd fund its development myself :O


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## Midihead (Apr 27, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> ?? You do realize that everybody thought you got a grant from the government? That’s all wrong? Wow. I guess never assume anything in this world. I was told this first hand from someone at Ilio in 2003 at the NAMM show. Sorry. It says that in google as well.


Hi Nick! Sorry, I had to reply since you stated that "someone at Ilio in 2003" told you private information about one of the producers, in this case VSL. It is policy (and common sense) to only discuss matters relevant to selling and promoting the products. We don't talk about other products outside our purview, and especially we would never discuss matters involving anyone's financials (none of the staff on the floor would know any of this anyway). Since I was working for ILIO in 2003 I can say, definitively, nobody would have told you what you are claiming.


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## Spid (Apr 27, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> Yeah kind of along the same lines as what Bee said above, I don't think the argument was specifically 'Sample developers will dominate the music industry' - bit of a strawman there, but your point is certainly well taken and is of course completely true.
> 
> The implication was certainly 'Spitfire and VSL will be the dominant devs for the next decade', _within_ the niche market of Sample libs.
> 
> ...


I didn’t try to strawman anything, I just understood as a whole (mainly when we comment about dominating without precising). Of course if it’s in the specific market of composer, that’s a whole different story and a lot of my comment is irrelevant.

Same thing with subscriptions. They’re generally good if you want to reach a large amount of customers I guess… and I don’t think it would work on a small scale of niche market… but yet, Avid just announced that Protools would go subscription only… so who knows? I haven’t done market researches for a long time, so I have no idea to what the current state of the market. I have no doubt, Spitfire, VSL and such do know better than us what they’re goals and market is. So it’s absolutely possible that subscription models wouldn’t fit for a very specific composer market. The point of Eastwest is that they’re not aiming specifically at this market, but they try to reach more mass market… at least that’s how I see it. 

Also, on a personal note, I have to say I’d prefer for less developers to go the subscription path, because I don’t like subs… because $20 here, $30 there, $20 here, once you add all subscriptions, you end up with $200 of subscription a month and you have nothing if you stop it and therefore you can’t re-open your old projects. So I prefer to invest this money to purchase stuff step by step…

Another solution I would love tho, would be the “rent-to-own” model. For instance, you see a $400 library, you pay $20 a month for your subscription, but as long as you keep your subscription, you collect $20 coupons every month, and once you reach the $400 amount, you can receive a lifetime license… in the way Splice website does. And of course, you only have a temporary license until you reach the $400, and if you stop the subscription at any moment, you loose the temporary license… no different from regular subscription. For people being in business, they will for sure continue their subscription, because by the time you reach the amount to pay for the first library, you will get more libraries you will want to get. However, for the end user, it won’t give the impression to waste money, and instead get “something” in return of the subscription. And for the developers, it could help to reach more users and would guarantee a constant revenue (like subscriptions do). But again, it would only work for a developers with a large catalog, aiming at mass market and not a niche market. I doubt niche market numbers would be great enough to be profitable. Roland Cloud did some stuff like “Play 4 Life” offering some lifetime keys/license for any annual subscription… they’re adding always more content, so one year later, you want to continue the subscription to get all new stuff…

I hope it makes sense…


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## SandChannel (Apr 27, 2022)

Orchestral Tools should probably implement a payment over time plan like Spitfire. Sure, you might not want to drop 1500 bucks for all those Ark libraries, but maybe you are more keen at 125 bucks a month over a year. Of course, I am probably just talking about me here.


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 27, 2022)

Midihead said:


> Hi Nick! Sorry, I had to reply since you stated that "someone at Ilio in 2003" told you private information about one of the producers, in this case VSL. It is policy (and common sense) to only discuss matters relevant to selling and promoting the products. We don't talk about other products outside our purview, and especially we would never discuss matters involving anyone's financials (none of the staff on the floor would know any of this anyway). Since I was working for ILIO in 2003 I can say, definitively, nobody would have told you what you are claiming.


oh jees. It’s public knowledge. Everyone thought this was the case. I guess we are all wrong. It still says this on google.


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 27, 2022)

More on funding: People on forums often try and support small developers because they know it’s hard to fund libraries yourself. It’s hard to go up against big companies. people root for the small guy. Sometimes a big company will prevail for no other reason than the money, staff and promotion they have access to. So if Herb, who is a great guy, secured private funding (meaning from a person or company with no relation to city, state government or programs) and built VSL from that, that’s a huge achievement. I’m sorry I brought VSL up. I didn’t want to say anything incorrect, but like I said, the internet has reflected something different for 20 years. I also bring up funding because it affects many projects that could have been better if there was a bigger budget. I am always careful about budget. I cannot figure out the Spitfire model. It doesn’t seem financially sound. But, the more I think about it, if they continue to put out libraries every few weeks, they probably will wipe out everyone else. I personally only like to do new projects that are original and needed by other composers. Not sure there will be anything left to cover by next year.


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## cqd (Apr 27, 2022)

Spitfire..The Walmart/Starbucks of Sample libraries..


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 27, 2022)

cqd said:


> Spitfire..The Walmart/Starbucks of Sample libraries..


I’m not saying that by the way. I’m just saying that the concept of putting out so much is unusual when the market is not that big.


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## Jdiggity1 (Apr 27, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Wonder if we'll start seeing some market consolidation and acquisitions. For example, Spitfire aqui-hiring Aaron Venture. Depends on how much value they see in his approach and expertise.


Well it could be argued that Pianobook - particularly with its new "you can charge for your products now" model - will encourage up-and-coming samplists to simply add to the pianobook/spitfire ecosystem instead of taking the risk and effort required to start their own small company.
No need to acquire them if they joined you from the start. <taps head>


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## colony nofi (Apr 27, 2022)

Midihead said:


> Hi Nick! Sorry, I had to reply since you stated that "someone at Ilio in 2003" told you private information about one of the producers, in this case VSL. It is policy (and common sense) to only discuss matters relevant to selling and promoting the products. We don't talk about other products outside our purview, and especially we would never discuss matters involving anyone's financials (none of the staff on the floor would know any of this anyway). Since I was working for ILIO in 2003 I can say, definitively, nobody would have told you what you are claiming.


I understand what you are saying, and where you are coming from - and the trust that you place in the people that were on the floor.)
I've been on the receiving end of tonnes of info I would never believe I would be told - from indy companies to the most mega public & private cos, from reps right up to C levels. Folk make mistakes. Folk want to make personal connections (especially in this industry). Folk want to seem more connected than sometimes they are. There's tonnes of reasons for this kind of thing to be spoken about. Even if it turns out (as in the case of VSL) it isn't true. I've made plenty of mistakes myself.

Trust is a massive thing. And it is broken more than any of us would like to believe. :(. Often in the name of someone else wanting others to trust them. Humans are complicated.

That a rumour regarding VSL govt investment would last so long (hey, I'd heard it LONG ago) is kind of nuts.


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## Zanshin (Apr 27, 2022)

The actual wiki article that has the part about funding is specific to MIR Pro:

_"Vienna MIR PRO", a mixing and room simulation software for macOS and Microsoft Windows-based on the revolutionary "Multi Impulse Response" (MIR) convolution reverb technology, caused a sensation. It was presented at the Musikmesse Frankfurt on April 6, 2005, for the first time. In 2002 already, the concept for the development was awarded the 1st prize at the "Creative Industries Awards Vienna" and was funded by the Vienna Business Promotion Fund.__[30]_


Here's what it says about the initial funding the company recieved:

_The company was founded in Vienna in October 2000 by Herbert "Herb" Tucmandl.[2] In the 1990s, Tucmandl, a former cellist (as a substitute member with the Vienna Philharmonic, amongst others), later cameraman, director and composer used some of the available first-generation sample libraries for the creation of his own film scores. Because the sounds available at the time did not meet his requirements, he developed his own concept for an authentic-sounding sample library for orchestral music. His idea stood out for his approach of recording not only single notes but also tone combinations (e.g. legato) and tone repetitions. Through their combination, they allowed users lively interpretations for the first time. He tested his concept with the cello himself and convinced the investor Markus Kopf with the tonal results.[3]__[4]_


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## holywilly (Apr 27, 2022)

Two developers that I’d like to fully support are Performance Sample and Audio Ollie.

Spitfire and VSL are strong enough to continually developing prestige products, but PS and AO are truly capturing the human performance into their samples, and the composing realm need that.


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 27, 2022)

Forget I said anything about VSL. It was not my intention to further rumors which are incorrect. It was always viewed in a positive light anyway. I thought that it was brilliant that the government would have that foresight.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 27, 2022)

What’s the average cost to record, edit, etc a sample library? As Nick said, Spitfire is churning them out and while certainly production costs will vary, I know they’ve mentioned they do a lot of experimental sessions too (even if the recordings never see the light of day), which can cost upwards of $50k just for the session at Air / Abbey Road. Stack development / editing / marketing costs on top of that and some of these libraries certainly become pretty expensive to produce. Think I read somewhere on here somebody say one particular library cost $1m to produce (seems rather high)? I imagine this is where VSL’s ownership of Synchron Stage can be really beneficial in the long run.


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## Ben (Apr 28, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What’s the average cost to record, edit, etc a sample library? As Nick said, Spitfire is churning them out and while certainly production costs will vary, I know they’ve mentioned they do a lot of experimental sessions too (even if the recordings never see the light of day), which can cost upwards of $50k just for the session at Air / Abbey Road. Stack development / editing / marketing costs on top of that and some of these libraries certainly become pretty expensive to produce. Think I read somewhere on here somebody say one particular library cost $1m to produce (seems rather high)? I imagine this is where VSL’s ownership of Synchron Stage can be really beneficial in the long run.


It's highly dependent on many factors like:
- the instrument or section you are sampling
- the room
- the equipment rental and/or upkeep
- the number of sessions
- how detailed the sampled instrument should be / how many cut corners you are ok with
- the editing of the material
- QA testing, demo composition, promotion
- the level of support you want to provide
- ... 

For example our Synchron Pianos are sampled with such detail, that it can take over a month to finish recording of it. In this time you can't move the piano or the mics to stay perfectly in phase. A piano tuner has to be there and listen to each note in stage.
After that you have so much material, a team of editors needs weeks to months to work through it and do their magic.

All this adds up quickly to huge numbers, and still, this only covers room, recording and editing. Each library is an investment and you hope the users like and buy it, so you not only can pay personal, but you also have funds for new projects.


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## Spid (Apr 28, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> Forget I said anything about VSL. It was not my intention to further rumors which are incorrect. It was always viewed in a positive light anyway. I thought that it was brilliant that the government would have that foresight.


No harm done nick… we all make mistake from time to time. Surely I know I do 

Also, it’s good to clarify it if it’s some rumors that went for decades. So it was a good opportunity in the discussion here, thanks Ben for the info too.


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 28, 2022)

mistake. Yes I make lots of those, but I was told something and lots of others were told the same thing. It was literally “Vienna got a 4 million Euro grant from the Austrian government”. I didn’t make that up. Some idiot started that rumor, but it wasn’t me.


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## Spid (Apr 28, 2022)

Yeah, by mistake I include repeating things we take for true from the internet… but we can’t always double check and verify absolutely EVERY statement and facts we find on the internet… even fact checker often get their check wrong. That’s probably the most downside of internet… we have a way to communicate and get information, but we also receive so much information we can’t dissociate it from disinformation, or just pure simple rumors. That’s why I don’t hesitate to ask, and stay pretty skeptical for everything… and yet I’m still doing plenty of errors and mistakes… but hey, at least I know I’m human


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## SandChannel (Apr 28, 2022)

I'm barely human and make loads of mistakes.


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## robgb (Apr 28, 2022)

A decade is a VERY long time in terms of sample development. I wouldn't make any predictions. I remember, even less than a decade ago, composer friends and podcasts singing the praises of Cinesamples and Audiobro, and Spitfire was "that British sounding" developer. One composer friend even warned me away from them. So a lot can happen in 10 years.


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## Spid (Apr 28, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> I'm barely human and make loads of mistakes.


Yes, “barely human”, you’re right, that’s the appropriate term I should have used too


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## robgb (Apr 28, 2022)

Markrs said:


> basically anything created for Kontakt is freely available on pirate websites


It seems to me that since you can be sued into oblivion for using pirated samples (ask Crowded House about it—EDIT: DON'T ASK THEM, I CAN'T CONFIRM. IT WAS LIKELY ANOTHER BAND), anyone using them for their productions is pretty foolish. The only benefit I could see is the ability to audition a library before you buy it, which is something that could be remedied fairly easily by sample developers. But even most of the developers with their own players won't do it.


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## JDK88 (Apr 28, 2022)

Orchestral Tools would be rising if they weren't overcharging for their individual instruments. It discourages library completion.


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## robgb (Apr 28, 2022)

novaburst said:


> Cubase and Nuendo are still the DAW to beat even in 2022.yes some prefer other Draws but that is only because Cubase offers so much and can be a bit mind blowing.


Having used both extensively, I'll have to disagree about the mind-blowing part. They are excellent DAWs, no doubt about it, but they don't really offer anything you can't get from other major DAWs.


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## Spid (Apr 28, 2022)

robgb said:


> It seems to me that since you can be sued into oblivion for using pirated samples (ask Crowded House about it), anyone using them for their productions is pretty foolish.


I don’t use any, and I don’t have any production either, I’m just a noob, but can you give more details about Crowded House (what is it, who is it? What have they done)? 

Do you mean they did a score with pirated sample and it was detected and they got sued?


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## robgb (Apr 28, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> The tools are there for any sound you can imagine.


Thank you. I think a lot of people are actually pretty hung up on sounding like someone else, actually striving for it, and they forget that with sample libraries all bets are off. You don't have to conform to any standards other than your own.


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## SandChannel (Apr 28, 2022)

robgb said:


> It seems to me that since you can be sued into oblivion for using pirated samples (ask Crowded House about it), anyone using them for their productions is pretty foolish. The only benefit I could see is the ability to audition a library before you buy it, which is something that could be remedied fairly easily by sample developers. But even most of the developers with their own players won't do it.


I don't know Neil well enough to ask him about it... so what was the story?


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## robgb (Apr 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> Crowded House (what is it, who is it? What have they done)?


My apologies to Crowded House. I just realized I may have the wrong band. Someone please correct me. But there was a band back in the day who used samples (sampled someone else's music) and was sued over it, ultimately losing ALL royalties to the song that had the samples. A cursory search of the web, however, has not produced any stories about this in regard to Crowded House, so it may well have been a different band. Again, my apologies.


SandChannel said:


> I don't know Neil well enough to ask him about it... so what was the story?


See above.


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## SandChannel (Apr 28, 2022)

robgb said:


> My apologies to Crowded House. I just realized I may have the wrong band. Someone please correct me. But there was a band back in the day who used samples (sampled someone else's music) and was sued over it, ultimately losing ALL royalties to the song that had the samples. A cursory search of the web, however, has not produced any stories about this in regard to Crowded House, so it may well have been a different band. Again, my apologies.
> 
> See above.



I am wondering if you were thinking about The Verve's Bittersweet Symphony. They took a sample from a symphonic Rolling Stones cover album and flipped it backwards as the core for their song. I guess they thought no one would notice - until someone noticed. Mick and Keef ended up getting credits on that one.


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## Spid (Apr 28, 2022)

Oh ok… I was just wondering how devs would know some music is done with legit or pirated libraries… I always thinking about audio watermark with inaudible marks in samples… My mind just gets out of rails easily sometimes


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## robgb (Apr 28, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> I am wondering if you were thinking about The Verve's Bittersweet Symphony. They took a sample from a symphonic Rolling Stones cover album and flipped it backwards as the core for their song. I guess they thought no one would notice - until someone noticed. Mick and Keef ended up getting credits on that one.


No, it was someone else for sure. It kills me that I can't remember. Actually The Verve asked for and was given permission to use that sample in exchange for royalties, but the Stones manager at the time claimed they used too much of it and sued. They lost their royalties, but apparently the Stones recently gave them back. At least that's what I remember reading recently. You can't believe everything you read on the Internet.


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## robgb (Apr 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> Oh ok… I was just wondering how devs would know some music is done with legit or pirated libraries… I always thinking about audio watermark with inaudible marks in samples… My mind just gets out of rails easily sometimes


I honestly don't know how developers would know. Seems like an impossible task. But I wouldn't take the risk of them finding out.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 28, 2022)

robgb said:


> I honestly don't know how developers would know. Seems like an impossible task. But I wouldn't take the risk of them finding out.


Well….I wonder how many producers used cracked Waves plugins over the past twenty years. Like pirated sample libraries, I’m sure it’s more than we’d like to think. Investigating would be a monumental task for sure.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 28, 2022)

It's a risk on anything high profile; and a very bad career move if doing work for hire.

I think that the people making use of pirated libraries are almost all amateurs - whether trying to make money or not. So the problem of getting sued for earnings doesn't really loom large.

I know that many people have commented about getting copyright strikes against them on YouTube. The first thing I ever downloaded was an atmosphere making use of a number of samples from a sample pack. This included quite a long one (background town noises). At the very point of uploading, I was told it would be under review for plagiarism. I submitted my license information to YouTube and never heard anything again. While I waited, the video/audio stayed up.

So, there is some automated way of spotting samples. But it may not work very well if they are tiny, individual notes.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 28, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Well….I wonder how many producers used cracked Waves plugins over the past twenty years. Like pirated sample libraries, I’m sure it’s more than we’d like to think. Investigating would be a monumental task for sure.


Yes, that's where I've thought that piracy might actually pay. Not that I was tempted; but I can see how it would be extraordinarily difficult to spot when a product was made with an unlicensed copy of a plugin - be it a synth or a reverb.


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## Spid (Apr 28, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Well….I wonder how many producers used cracked Waves plugins over the past twenty years. Like pirated sample libraries, I’m sure it’s more than we’d like to think. Investigating would be a monumental task for sure.


I don’t know for sample libraries amongst composers… this is not a domain I know. However, I know quite a lot about Producers, and believe me or not, but the highest profile you can think are the worst. People like Timbaland and such, that have their computers full of cracks. I know it for fact, I’ve seen it, I had Timbaland’s system in my hands and I went through his files (it was part of my job). I found it quite repulsive to be honest, because he could clearly afford everything he had and used. That’s also why I have no problem to disclose his name now… he should be ashamed.

Also I want to mention, that I’m not a hypocrite, I will admit in the past I also used cracks stuff, I actually tested plenty of things I didn’t knew that way. But I never used anything cracked on a commercial project I did, and now I have no cracks on my system and I’m slowly buying all the stuff I liked and tried in the past… Komplete, Arturia, IK Multimedia, you name it.

Now, I’ve learned that “too much” stuff isn’t always better anyway, so I won’t recommend cracks to anyone. Instead I would recommend to focus on what you have, and what you can afford; I’m sure that’s already a good start, and then save up to get the next big thing that makes you dream. One will appreciate way more the stuff s/he will save up for a long time and pay for… when you use cracks, you don’t appreciate the value of it (since it was “free”) and most of the time, you’ll use it once and move to the “next big thing”… instead of digging into the marvelous plugins or libraries you just got. So in the end, paying for your gear/soft is better, not just for the morality, but also for the creativity.


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## RogiervG (Apr 28, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> mistake. Yes I make lots of those, but I was told something and lots of others were told the same thing. It was literally “Vienna got a 4 million Euro grant from the Austrian government”. I didn’t make that up. Some idiot started that rumor, but it wasn’t me.


Don't worry about that. 
You just repeated what you've heard/read back then in all honesty (not knowing it was an untrue rumor). You are not to blame, nobody blames you. So a mistake it is not.


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## Composer 2021 (Apr 28, 2022)

JDK88 said:


> Orchestral Tools would be rising if they weren't overcharging for their individual instruments. It discourages library completion.


In my opinion, they are overcharging for everything by not having frequent sales and not even putting most of their products on sale. It's not a smart way to compete IMO.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 28, 2022)

robgb said:


> No, it was someone else for sure. It kills me that I can't remember. Actually The Verve asked for and was given permission to use that sample in exchange for royalties, but the Stones manager at the time claimed they used too much of it and sued. They lost their royalties, but apparently the Stones recently gave them back. At least that's what I remember reading recently. You can't believe everything you read on the Internet.


That's also a classic song in its own right, a real alternative anthem of the '90s which bears no resemblance to anything else that I know of as a whole, so that manager must have been a real asshole.

The thing is... when someone's manager does something, important not to forget that person answers to _the band_, not the label/studio... so the Stones could have stopped it, and as I see it he would have had virtually no reason to pursue litigation without their involvement on some level.

May have been some bad blood there... who knows.

Either way to sue them _after_ they got permission for some semantic reason is douchebaggey cubed.

It never ceases to amaze me just how many pricks there are in the music biz' who are champing at the bit to take a bite out of somebody else's pie.

It's that little violin melody that persists throughout the song, right?
Even more absurd if the sample was taken from a cover and not even an original... shouldn't the original writer get a piece of the action in that case?

Copyright nuances make my head hurt.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 28, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> That's also a classic song in its own right, a real alternative anthem of the '90s which bears no resemblance to anything else that I know of as a whole, so that manager must have been a real asshole.
> 
> The thing is... when someone's manager does something, important not to forget that person answers to _the band_, not the label/studio... so the Stones could have stopped it, and as I see it he would have had virtually no reason to pursue litigation without their involvement on some level.
> 
> ...


Not that it makes much difference, but as I heard it, the Stones were the writers, the string arrangement was the cover.


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## novaburst (Apr 28, 2022)

robgb said:


> Having used both extensively, I'll have to disagree about the mind-blowing part. They are excellent DAWs, no doubt about it, but they don't really offer anything you can't get from other major DAWs.


I think what is the plus mark for Cubase is how they have managed to change the feel and approach, through the years of development making you feel like anything is possible, they develop some small additions that you take no notice of but later on it plays a major part in your project and you cant do with out it.

I do not have all the DAWs only 4 but never seem to open them, its quite possible you can do similar things with them but Cubase's presentation and execution is very good and has a way to draw you in and experiment. 

Of course every one will not agree with the blowing your mind statement but Cubase just gets better on top of already better if that makes sense, not a fan boy i just appreciate that


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 28, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Not that it makes much difference, but as I heard it, the Stones were the writers, the string arrangement was the cover.


Ahh ok, that does change things actually...

But I looked into it and it gets even weirder, because the orchestral cover is a _verrrryyy _liberal interpretation of the original:




From what I can tell the original is just Emaj7 > D > A for the main verse, with a unique chorus that isn't featured in the Verve song, and the Andrew Oldham orchestral version goes Emaj > D6sus2 (or something) > Asus4 > Amaj - actually I think the cover was in the same key, the tape is probably just making it sound transposed.

So the Verve basically did copy that arrangement verbatim, which sounds nothing like the original, but afaik you can't copyright harmony, only melody... yet they got permission for the melody... yet they got sued for using more than the 'few notes' from the melody they were given permission for... yet the entire melody IS only a few notes...

So it's actually quite simple. To someone, somewhere.


🍻


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 28, 2022)

Spid said:


> Yeah, by mistake I include repeating things we take for true from the internet… but we can’t always double check and verify absolutely EVERY statement and facts we find on the internet… even fact checker often get their check wrong. That’s probably the most downside of internet… we have a way to communicate and get information, but we also receive so much information we can’t dissociate it from disinformation, or just pure simple rumors. That’s why I don’t hesitate to ask, and stay pretty skeptical for everything… and yet I’m still doing plenty of errors and mistakes… but hey, at least I know I’m human


I was clear. I was told this directly at the NAMM show in 2003 from the horses mouth. This untrue rumor was common knowledge and it seems everyone has thought that was the case for 20 years. I was recording this week with an engineer and he is familiar with and uses some virtual instruments. I asked him whether he had heard this rumor. He said he had. I kid you not. Hopefully it didn’t originate from me.


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## Spid (Apr 29, 2022)

I never said it was originated from you. I just said we can’t always believe what we’re told to…


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## RogiervG (Apr 29, 2022)

people, no to be harsh or anything.
I really think this discussion is after 10 pages, ready to stop. Most agruments on why they will or won't dominate in the fure are already given.

In the end:
We don't know what the future brings, which companies will "dominate" the sample library world by then.

and...
What does Dominate mean, context wise? The amount of sales (how would we know)? the amount of libraries available? the amount of employees (how would we know)? the amount of discussion count on their products (who will count that)? etc etc...


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## dts_marin (Apr 29, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> What does Dominate mean, context wise


I don't know what it means exactly but it certainly involves Power Legato


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## Trash Panda (Apr 29, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> people, no to be harsh or anything.
> I really think this discussion is after 10 pages, ready to stop. Most agruments on why they will or won't dominate in the fure are already given.
> 
> In the end:
> ...


We could always start a new TV show: Sample Library Developer Death Match. MTV might pick it up.


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## Denkii (Apr 29, 2022)

Technoviking DSmolken would obviously win that.
Bare handed. Highest kill count.


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## RogiervG (Apr 29, 2022)

Denkii said:


> Technoviking DSmolken would obviously win that.
> Bare handed. Highest kill count.


Does he do orchestral libs?


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## Denkii (Apr 29, 2022)

Doesn't matter. Once he is done with everyone else, his libraries will be all that are left and we *will* love them.

I mean come on, who would voluntarily bet against that guy?


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## RogiervG (Apr 29, 2022)

Denkii said:


> I mean come on, who would voluntarily bet against that guy?



Not into EDM and macho vikings dancing on it


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## Jdiggity1 (Apr 29, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> Does he do orchestral libs?


*Orcestral 
(https://shop.karoryfer.com/products/orcophony)


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 29, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> people, no to be harsh or anything.
> I really think this discussion is after 10 pages, ready to stop. Most agruments on why they will or won't dominate in the fure are already given.
> 
> In the end:
> ...


In the end, I don't have a great deal of confidence in any of them tbh.

I kind of feel like COVID halted nearly all momentum development wise, during which time they released a lot of products they still had in the pipeline, but now it's finally caught up with us and we are experiencing a sort of dearth of new ideas until such time as production can catch up with demand.

So it's almost a battle of who can 'pick up the pieces' better post-COVID, and past successes aren't necessarily a guarantee that will happen (I could be wrong here, but it's just the sense I get)

All the 'proprietary' players are quite worrisome, because no one is handling them particularly well (haven't tried Synchron but I hear it's an exception) and none of them seem worthy of being a replacement for Kontakt feature wise.

Also, does anyone know how COVID affected sample sales overall? One would assume it drove them higher, but it would be nice to have some actual numbers.


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## novaburst (Apr 29, 2022)

We are still in the middle or some where in Covid, at this very moment China is in a very fears lockdown.

Will it ever go away or is it here to stay like the common cold that also takes people's life.

I think it's a matter of adapting to this new age or time or every thing will just stand still,

I think the only down side for development during this Covid was staff catching it and taking an incredible amount of time off due to its systems of sickness, that would have been very frustrating.

On the other hand it will be a good time for developers in terms of sales as many left there common jobs also there was a lot of people who stayed home rethinking Thier future I noticed a lot more new faces on utube that have taken up sample music and composition, 

I think developers and all of us must push and move through with our life's and hold on to our future and not let the virus defeat our goals,. All this of course are subject to leaders as you can see the China people are in a bad way not so much because of Covid but because of how the leaders are handling the situation.

None the less we have something that can inspire and that is our music that is our weapon


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 29, 2022)

novaburst said:


> I think the only down side for development during this Covid was staff catching it and taking an incredible amount of time off due to its systems of sickness, that would have been very frustrating.


Yes you might be right, I was kind of assuming that it kept session musicians out of the studio in a major way - I know I've seen several of the big devs doing masked recordings, but for about a year or so during the harshest regulations it would have surely made booking live orchestral sessions quite difficult?

But yeah I don't have actual data for this, just assuming.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 29, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> Yes you might be right, I was kind of assuming that it kept session musicians out of the studio in a major way - I know I've seen several of the big devs doing masked recordings, but for about a year or so during the harshest regulations it would have surely made booking live orchestral sessions quite difficult?
> 
> But yeah I don't have actual data for this, just assuming.


It's a good assumption. In our case, we had sessions scheduled, but they were cancelled since the town (Los Angeles) shut down. After a while, some L.A. recording resumed, but they were very tight. Mostly big films that had to be completed and would accept the tight (and expensive) protocols. Even now, it's not 100% back to normal, although it's close.

Film dates are being scheduled, but I still won't schedule sampling sessions, because unlike film dates, I need the exact same players to show up each day. (For consistency.) They do covid testing at sessions, and it's not uncommon that players are fine for day 1, but they test positive and get pulled on day 2 or 3 or 4. Film dates can simply sub, because the cues are different each day, but for sampling, unless the section is huge, it's surprisingly easy to hear a difference if a player is swapped. I can't take that chance, especially with an instrument like Sunset Strings, where the mod wheel crossfades makes any differences even more obvious.

Regarding sales, 2020 was a very good year (financially) for music software companies, since lots of people suddenly had time to start new hobbies. Personally, I felt kinda guilty about that, because we have friends and neighbors who are professional session musicians, and they were hit really hard.

The boom ended (for us, at least) and 2021 and this year are more normal, since anyone who was suddenly at home for lockdown in 2020 already made their purchases that year.


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## blaggins (Apr 29, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> The boom ended (for us, at least) and 2021 and this year are more normal, since anyone who was suddenly at home for lockdown in 2020 already made their purchases that year.


I can attest to the fact that I bought more plugins and VSTs in 2020 than all previous years in the hobby combined. I really dedicated a lot of time to music in 2020, it felt great, and so far my focus on it is continuing. But I doubt I will spend anywhere near as much this year. First off it wouldn't be sustainable, and second off I can't think of anything I really need, aside from more time to work on music of course.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 29, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> Regarding sales, 2020 was a very good year (financially) for music software companies, since lots of people suddenly had time to start new hobbies. Personally, I felt kinda guilty about that, because we have friends and neighbors who are professional session musicians, and they were hit really hard.
> 
> The boom ended (for us, at least) and 2021 and this year are more normal, since anyone who was suddenly at home for lockdown in 2020 already made their purchases that year.


Thanks for this perspective Mike, gives quite a bit of clarity.



Mike Greene said:


> Film dates can simply sub, because the cues are different each day, but for sampling, unless the section is huge, it's surprisingly easy to hear a difference if a player is swapped


It's remarkable how true this is.

Explains for instance why I absolutely _adore_ the Tpt. 1 in Glory Days Horns (OT), but find the Solo Trumpets in BB and even the additional trumpets in GDH unsuitable for solo phrases.

I also chalk it up to being the reason that JBV sounds so good, because _he_ is that good of a player (Embertone are mad geniuses with sample scripting as well, ofc)

Tracking the samples themselves is truly a performance in its own right, and the virtuosity of each musician shines through.


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## NoamL (Apr 30, 2022)

I'm rooting for *CineSamples *to compete at a high level with Spitfire.

Spitfire have always prioritized authenticity (think of HZ01, same players, same drums, same stage, same recording) and AROOF is flabbergasting if you load up the sounds next to, for instance, the end titles of _Return Of The Sith. _I don't think that's possible with libraries recorded at Teldex, Synchron or Zlin., with German or Central European players behind the mouthpieces instead of UK folks - and in some cases different makes of instruments too.

Spitfire are making strides with usability as well, enabling more complex and idiomatic string passages with _Appassionata_ not just staccato ostinatos and slow legatos.

But for right now, the Cinematic Studio libraries by Alex Wallbank, are irreplaceable in my template for performing VI-challenging passages with aplomb. Even though I sometimes tear my hair out mixing them. I also love the Musical Sampling libraries (for very narrow applications). They rock.

That gets to the key point. I need instruments that are either high authenticity or very high usability. There's lots of developers that are only middle of the peloton for usability and have no authenticity selling point. At least not for me. If the composer always _intended_ to get the Teldex sound (like Alexander Temple's recent score for Arcane) then OT libraries are precisely what they want. And I think some of the stuff OT released recently that is NOT for core orchestral scoring is really interesting, like Miroire. Just talking about core orch libraries here.

If Spitfire locks down the "London" sound then the natural role for a competitor is to deliver great "LA" sounds. That's where CineSamples comes in with their longstanding relationship with LA stages and personnel. They have a ways to go with the programming of their libraries - and they know it, it's a great thing that they are going back to the woodshed with CineStrings and their other older libraries. The drier and somewhat... brighter? harsher? sound of SONY and FOX - for those who love the scores recorded there, as I do - is a great contrast to the sound of the British stages.

I think sampling is ready for the *REAL* "next generation" of deep-sampling a whole orchestra. Spitfire sees it and has announced an amazing roadmap. If CineSamples can build their own similar project, I'd be all ears.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 30, 2022)

NoamL said:


> I'm rooting for *CineSamples *to compete at a high level with Spitfire.
> 
> Spitfire have always prioritized authenticity (think of HZ01, same players, same drums, same stage, same recording) and AROOF is flabbergasting if you load up the sounds next to, for instance, the end titles of _Return Of The Sith. _I don't think that's possible with libraries recorded at Teldex, Synchron or Zlin.
> 
> ...


I really hope CineSamples makes a strong comeback - and represents the LA sound as you said (nobody else is recording at those stages). However, I worry that they are going to get distracted and sidetracked with their Musio thing, which requires a different focus and cadence of new samples to keep a subscription user hooked (think Output Arcade). If they could channel their energies into doing what Spitfire has done at AIR and is doing for Abbey Road for the LA scoring stages, that would be amazing. I have my doubts though.


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## CT (Apr 30, 2022)

Cinesamples....


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## JGRaynaud (May 2, 2022)

NoamL said:


> I'm rooting for *CineSamples *to compete at a high level with Spitfire.
> 
> Spitfire have always prioritized authenticity (think of HZ01, same players, same drums, same stage, same recording) and AROOF is flabbergasting if you load up the sounds next to, for instance, the end titles of _Return Of The Sith. _I don't think that's possible with libraries recorded at Teldex, Synchron or Zlin., with German or Central European players behind the mouthpieces instead of UK folks - and in some cases different makes of instruments too.


I kind of disagree about that. The London or LA sound are famous yes and I get that people want to capture both sounds, but Teldex or the Synchron Stage are now venues that are competing with London or LA. Especially Synchron that sounds kinda in between of the London halls and the LA halls (Teldex has a bit more "its own sound") and is getting tons or recordings sessions from Hollywood. They all have authenticity as their recordings are usually based on recordings sessions seatings (and settings) they previously had.

The whole point of London or LA is that we have pristine recordings with a nostalgia in the sound. But when it comes to pristine recordings ,we have that in other places too to be fair. 

Regarding the sound of AROOF and Star Wars 3. Yes it sounds great, and is a library that I use every day, but tI have to say that Synchron stuff can sound like SW3 too if you don't go for the premixed microphones positions. And if I'm being honest lastly for a Star Wars sound I loaded Synchron Brass way more than AROOF.

Just as an example, here is the demo I made for Chorus by Audio Imperia. https://www.dropbox.com/s/j9lz9o6yds7qe7s/JGR_EchoesOfTheStars_ChorusDemo.wav?dl=0

I aimed for a Star Wars 1-Star Wars 3 sound there. I started to use mainly AROOF but ended up replacing almost all the brass of AROOF with Synchron Brass in the end. Why ? Because AROOF performances were more static so the result was less convincing even if it had the right tone more easily out of the box. The final product here is 95% Synchron Brass and 5% AROOF just to give you an idea. 

So yes, having the right recording venue is great but other venues are rising up in the game. And when it comes to sample libraries, it is as important to capture a great performance than having a great hall. I heard way too many sample libraries sampled in great halls (and probably very authentic in the way it's been planned) with lazy performances or not driven well these last 5-10 years.


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## Evans (May 2, 2022)

Dang, @JGRaynaud that's lovely. Is the melodic percussion also Synchron?


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## Zanshin (May 2, 2022)

Evans said:


> Dang, @JGRaynaud that's lovely. Is the melodic percussion also Synchron?


Agreed. Fantastic. I have to admit I didn't really listen to the demos for Chorus, I didn't need much convincing before purchasing. Like @Evans I would love to know more details.


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## JGRaynaud (May 2, 2022)

Evans said:


> Dang, @JGRaynaud that's lovely. Is the melodic percussion also Synchron?


No it's not as I didn't have Synchron Percussion when I made this track. A good part of the percs was AROOF (the percs are my favorite patches of the entire library) with some complements from other libraries. I remember I used a bit of LADD too (like for the tubular bells)


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