# Reverb - Orchestral Clear Spacing Help!



## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 3, 2011)

Hi Everyone!!

Well, as the subject says, i need help with space, reverb, clarity headroom issues 
im In logic and i Own Altiverb and, some old an trusty waves plugins, the rest is mainly free plugins, (like origami free reverb) and Logic Plugins.
The problem is that whatever i do i hear muddy or crowded my mixes.
I tried with altiverb stems with different reverbs each and one on the master Bus.
And also early reflections (i dont know exactly how to know the right parameters for each case)
Also stage positioning.
What i Didn`t tried is to put altiverb on every track, cause they are so many and exporting every single track would be cumbersome the goal is to do it on realtime, on a not very new system.

Anyone had this problem?
Thanks!
Regards
Christian


----------



## synthetic (Aug 3, 2011)

This is my current favorite. Only $50. Stands up to Lexicon Native IMO. 

http://www.valhalladsp.com/valhallaroom

I like it much better than Altiverb, which tends to mud up for me. 

Also, try shorter decay times (1.5 - 2 seconds) especially for fast tempos.


----------



## Jean Paul (Aug 3, 2011)

It will depend on what libraries you are using. The trend with most libraries nowadays is that they come with different mic positions that you can mix, so very little reverb would be needed, if any at all. Cinebrass, Symphobia, True Strike , EW, Cinematic Strings, Tonehammer, stuff etc. LASS is an expection.

All my libraries have baked in reverb, so I don't use any Early Reflections in Altiverb. These are switched off completely. I only have 3 insances of Altiverb with Todd AO for the near, mid, and far tails that are used for the sends. Even these are used minimally and only for samples that need the extra depth. I have one Lex PCM Hall with long tail (4 sec) at the final mix bus, but this is mixed with around 3%. Any good Algorithmic reverb will do the job here.

The key to avoid the mud, is to cut the low end on your reverb busses. Also EQ the instruments themselves helps with the perception of depth. If you reduce the hi end of a trumpet for instance it will sound distant. Boost violins hi end to bring them closer. low frequencies travel larger distances than hi freq. Use damping in altiverb and EQ the low end. Check the fundamental frequency of each instrument, allow for range of harmonics below that point, and then cut any thing below that range.
hope this helps.


----------



## Nick Phoenix (Aug 4, 2011)

Try the free download of QL Spaces. It's made for You.


----------



## Danny_Owen (Aug 4, 2011)

Do try Spaces, it's quite amazing. For the kind of work you're doing it's well worth giving the demo a go.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 4, 2011)

Do try Spaces. Once I did, I retired Altiverb.


----------



## jlb (Aug 4, 2011)

I have just bought it, and I also recommend it

jlb


----------



## musicpete (Aug 4, 2011)

I am in the same situation. Always searching for a good reverb. 

Tried the demo of Spaces, but the installer did not accept the demo code and I could not bind it to my ilok account. The support ticket I wrote 5 weeks ago remains unanswered. I don't think those guys will see my money anytime soon.

Any alternatives (but please not Altiverb, those guys placed themselves out of the market a long time ago IMHO)?


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 4, 2011)

musicpete @ Thu Aug 04 said:


> I am in the same situation. Always searching for a good reverb.
> 
> Tried the demo of Spaces, but the installer did not accept the demo code and I could not bind it to my ilok account. The support ticket I wrote 5 weeks ago remains unanswered. I don't think those guys will see my money anytime soon.



Did you email this to me for help with this issue? That is what I am here for.

[email protected]


----------



## Frederick Russ (Aug 4, 2011)

Spaces takes a lot of the difficulty out of applying reverb. Before you dismiss it, you might consider giving EW another chance to respond. 

Another alternative is using Vahalla Room for individual instrument section groups and final two track glue by Aether 1.5 (or Lexicon PCM Native) which seems to work rather well here to combat mud. This particular chain still has plenty of fullness and girth yet stays distinct and focused.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 4, 2011)

Apparently musicpete is now able to get the demo of QL Spaces going and we will see what he thinks.


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Aug 4, 2011)

I have a mix of hardware (TC) and software (algo, convo and hybrid). I've been demoing Spaces recently and been very impressed with it. It has a really warm, luxuriant sound, and is very simple to operate. Great price too. 

Also really impressed with VSL Hybrid reverb (which I own). Both Spaces and VSL Hybrid obviate the necessity of using multiple reverbs to control early reflections and tails so are crazily simple to use. VSL Hybrid is more flexible and tweakble; but Spaces is slightly easier to get a great sound. 

Cheers

Stephen


----------



## a.leung (Aug 4, 2011)

musicpete @ Thu Aug 04 said:


> Tried the demo of Spaces, but the installer did not accept the demo code and I could not bind it to my ilok account.



Weird-that's exactly what happened to me.


----------



## musicpete (Aug 4, 2011)

The strange thing is this: I tried it maybe 20-30 times since April, never worked. Today, after Jay's reply I tried again.... and it worked! I don't get it.... But now I can finally try it.


----------



## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 4, 2011)

synthetic @ Thu Aug 04 said:


> This is my current favorite. Only $50. Stands up to Lexicon Native IMO.
> 
> http://www.valhalladsp.com/valhallaroom
> 
> ...


Sounds Great and 50 bucks! is a bargain!
So many options, but i think is me who is doing something wrong.
worth the try though! thanks!
--
Jean Paul! thanks for your answer, is really helpful, i will try what you say! the dry-wet samples is a tricky issue for me.

-----

Nick! Thanks for your reply! great to see you in my post!  
The demos sounded Awesome!
And the plugin has a great price! (think about it , hardware reverbs were a lot more expensive!!)
But i want to know better what im doing wrong, before another purchase
Will try the demo !
Thanks!

-----

Frederic!
Hi! thanks for answering!
Maybe with valhalla and aether, but, altiverb sucks now? :( damn im outdated:(
i see what i can do, what about your aproach with orchestral reverb spacing/mixing whatever?

-----
Thanks to everybody!
Regards
Christian


----------



## Beat Kaufmann (Aug 4, 2011)

Hi Christian
As you can see everybody swears by his reverb!
I believe that all the tools are not bad. Even Altiverb is still a good reverb though we have a lot more reverbs today which can produce good results.

Of course it depends on the music you play but let me ask: 
Do you create different depths for your mixes?
Do you "draw" a plan with the positions of all your instruments?
Do you try to transfer this plan acoustically afterwards?
Is it possible to publish here such a "bad" mix?

It could be a good attempt to take the virtual position of a listener in a concert hall who is sitting in the first row and to simulate then his situation.
Some instruments will play closer to him than others.
So the use of left, right, close and far can increase the clarity in a very positive way.

Further, make sure that each instrument get its own frequency range.
This means for example: Cut the low frequencies of all the instruments except those of the bass instruments...

And also: If you are the composer - make sure that you compose an arrangement which enhances the clarity. You will always recognize Flute when cellos and violas are playing but not so good when the 1st violins are playing forte in the high register except the are playing in a rhythmical way and the flute long notes....

All the best
_Beat Kaufmann _


----------



## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 4, 2011)

Hi Beat! Thanks for answering!, man such big composers on this thread!
Well, i have some examples here www.forgingsounds.com 
At that time some things were mixed by a friend of me others have only one general reberb with several instruments bass eq down.
But i cannot remember well.

-I compose mainly orchestral music.

-I have 4 altiverb instances with different parameters (each one for each section of the orchestra i don´t know if they are right)

-And i put a EQ then reverb, then limiter on the master bus.

-Other thing i notice that it lacks headroom, it doesn´t sound Real.Don´t know how to explain.

The thing is now i´m working with other composer making mock ups of his music so i cant mess up with the arrangements (also i´m not in my studio, had to go to my parents house to take care of the dog while they were out so hopefully this weekend have my sistem back on my studio room that sounds much much better than this boomy ugly room LOL).
so i dont know if i can post here some tunes, ill check that out and keep you informed.
I have some layouts on paper on where the instruments should be.But i´m mainly a composer/musician and never studied engineering , so im intuitive, but when having this type of issue is very difficult to track and solve the problems.
Sorry for the long post, hope is sort of, clear :cry:
Regards
Christian


----------



## newtonbach (Aug 4, 2011)

Hi Christian,

My first post here, so hopefully I'm hooking into your real question, I completely agree with the post from Beat Kaufmann, it may not be a question of reverb but proper placement and planning of ranges. Some tracks just seem to fall into the right space by virtue of the right arrangement, and others need more work. Reverb sets things farther back, and consequently also adds more mud when used incorrectly. Make full use of up, down, left right and THEN decide what is forward and what is back. Every piece is unique, so it's a constant battle.


----------



## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 4, 2011)

Thanks for your reply!
Other strange thing, is that if i put metering plugin (to check phase) instead of being on +1 is between -1 +1 , the problem is that almost every sample is stereo recorded, so if you pan maybe you are ruining the phase.
Im i Wrong?
Regards
Christian


----------



## newtonbach (Aug 4, 2011)

It all depends on the samples/instrument you are working with whether they are recorded with multiple microphones or just hyped into stereo by offsetting the phase (like a chorus effect), many times i'll split to mono and take that mono track and pan as desired - getting rid of the hyped stereo image. you can't have everything at 100/100 pan because they all eat up your real estate. hope i didn't misunderstand the question


----------



## Mahlon (Aug 4, 2011)

What are folks experience with VSL Hybrid in terms of clarity and presence? From the promotional material, it looks and sounds fantastically tweakable. I have to admit the sound from demos seems pretty good. Is anyone using it and loving it? Or not?

Pity that it only come with the full set of Vienna Plugins, but at the same time, maybe not pity, because that looks like a full and potent set of tools.

I'm in the same boat as the OP, and on the fence now about buying a new reverb. Already have Altiverb (and waiting for AV7 -- interminable) but trying to weigh the difference twixt Spaces and VSL Hybrid. You do don't hear a lot about Hybrid on these forums; seems kind of like a dark horse. Opinions?


Mahlon


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Aug 4, 2011)

Mahlon @ Fri Aug 05 said:


> What are folks experience with VSL Hybrid in terms of clarity and presence? From the promotional material, it looks and sounds fantastically tweakable. I have to admit the sound from demos seems pretty good. Is anyone using it and loving it? Or not?
> 
> Pity that it only come with the full set of Vienna Plugins, but at the same time, maybe not pity, because that looks like a full and potent set of tools.
> 
> ...



Mahlon, 

That it comes with Vienna Suite is a very good thing - it's a top notch collection of 64bit plug ins. If you use any VSL instruments, it's even more of no brainer (if there are degrees of 'no brainerness'). 

The thing about VSL Hybrid is that it is wonderfully crystalline when you need it to be, and can be as coloured and crazy as you want since you can import impulses and the level of control is comprehensive to say the least.


----------



## devastat (Aug 5, 2011)

I'm not a very technical guy when it comes to plugins and lots of knobs - and I think that the sound and the simplicity of QL Spaces has really improved my mixes a lot.


----------



## re-peat (Aug 5, 2011)

QL Spaces is excellent, no discussion, but it’s a little bit of a shame that, judging from this strange conversation, people seem beginning to think that Altiverb might somehow be a flawed, mud-gushing appliance invariably ruining the mixes it is used in, whereas in fact, it’s a pretty powerful, versatile and sophisticated convolution reverb, capable of top-notch results, and easily the match of anything similar that has been released before or since.

If Altiverb makes your mixes muddy, there’s either something wrong with the tracks you’re feeding it, or you’re not using it correctly. Simple as that.

OK, some of the IR’s available for Altverb are a bit so-and-so (some are even quite bad), but if you’re careful about your IR-choices (there’s plenty of excellent ones too) and use Altiverb the way it was intended to be used, AND if your tracks don’t sound too bad to begin with, there’s no reason whatsoever to think that Altiverb won’t be up to the task of generating utterly convincing spaces and ambiences, of every conceivable weight, shape and size.

Having said that, me, I much prefer working with algorithmic reverbs.

_


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 5, 2011)

re-peat @ Fri Aug 05 said:


> QL Spaces is excellent, no discussion, but it’s a little bit of a shame that, judging from this strange conversation, people seem beginning to think that Altiverb might somehow be a flawed, mud-gushing appliance invariably ruining the mixes it is used in, whereas in fact, it’s a pretty powerful, versatile and sophisticated convolution reverb, capable of top-notch results, and easily the match of anything similar that has been released before or since.
> 
> If Altiverb makes your mixes muddy, there’s either something wrong with the tracks you’re feeding it, or you’re not using it correctly. Simple as that.
> 
> ...



While I agree with some of this I am not sure I agree with "easily the match of anything similar that has been released before or since." 

I have used Altiverb for years and certainly it can sound good but I have become convinced that all the stuff they have added to give you the level of control it gives you comes at a sonic cost. 

What I believe to an absolutely certainty is that if you a send to 2 buses, one with Spaces and 1 with Alitverb, each with a similar sized hall, and alternate soloing them while doing no further tweaking, Spaces just sounds better.

And to me, mixing a convolution reverb with a good algorithmic reverb, like the UAD Plate 40, is the way to go IMHO.


----------



## Dan Mott (Aug 5, 2011)

Spaces had improved my mixes too.


----------



## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks a lot for the replies! im learning a lot!
I thought that convolution reverbs (in my case altiverb , space designer, or IR) were the only way to go!


----------



## Beat Kaufmann (Aug 5, 2011)

> I thought that convolution reverbs (in my case altiverb , space designer, or IR) were the only way to go!


Hello again
Convolution Reverbs use "Room-Prints". These prints often produce nicer room impressions than algorithmic reverbs given by the first reflections of the reverb. Nevertheless, because we always get the same "acoustic-snap-shot" with convolutions we get on the otherhand a disadvantage for the tail of the reverb: It sounds "cool" and not very musically.
The idea is now to start with the ERs (Early Reflections) of a convolution reverb and to fade out the tail with an algorithmic reverb (which calculates the tail more randomly - as we have it in reality). Hybrid has the two system integrated. 
Summing up: 
Use the ERs of Altiverb without the tail (for creating different depths).
Use an algorithmic reverb in the output channel as "tail over all".
Try it out. It is an interesting possibility.


Best
Beat


----------



## Mahlon (Aug 5, 2011)

Rousseau @ Fri Aug 05 said:


> That it comes with Vienna Suite is a very good thing - it's a top notch collection of 64bit plug ins. If you use any VSL instruments, it's even more of no brainer (if there are degrees of 'no brainerness').
> 
> The thing about VSL Hybrid is that it is wonderfully crystalline when you need it to be, and can be as coloured and crazy as you want since you can import impulses and the level of control is comprehensive to say the least.



Thanks, R. They do look to be good. I just meant that it's a pity they're not available separately so I could buy Hybrid now and perhaps the Suite later. I've not had a chance to try the demo yet; will hopefully test it out this weekend. I like the interfaces and, as you say, the comprehensive control of Hybrid in particular.

Mahlon


----------



## P.T. (Aug 5, 2011)

Do most of you use sends for the reverb of each orchestral section (so that there is the dry output from the original track and the wet from the send), or do you run each section 100% wet?


----------



## José Herring (Aug 5, 2011)

Christian F. Perucchi @ Fri Aug 05 said:


> Thanks a lot for the replies! im learning a lot!
> I thought that convolution reverbs (in my case altiverb , space designer, or IR) were the only way to go!



Imo convo reverbs get cloudy as you add more and more instruments into an orchestration. Plus for some reason my ear tends to prefer algo reverbs. 

The problem with most of the algo reverbs I've tried is that they sound very light compared to hardware models. This might be advantageous because samples themselves tend to build up a lot of mud and adding a thick dense reverb tends to make it worse.

Personally I've found that with todays samples the need for a "great" reverb is becoming less and less important. On the other hand a really good reverb can add that undeniable spice.

In the end I've come to conclude that there's way too much focus on reverb and not enough focus on actually balancing out your template thus creating space and dimension naturally rather than relying on reverb to create the space which for some reason it can never really do well. All of a sudden all my reverb plugins found a way of working even the cheapo ones which I can use to get some dry samples like VSL into a room.

That being said though I tend to be in the minority here in that I tend to prefer the more musical underscore stuff to the overly hyped trailer music type stuff. Now that I'm doing more trailer type stuff I might all of a sudden find that I need more big bang boomy reverb than I currently use.

But, as of now I've found that my main go to verbs are Voxengo Prestine Space with the excellent Samplicity IRs and believe it or not the Roomworks verb in Cubase does a really great job of putting dry stuff into a small to medium sized room on individual tracks. 

Also, I'm quite embarrassed to say that it took me a long, long time to learn how to set up a reverb send properly and even longer to realize that the best way to set up dryer recordings in a room was to apply an algo verb as an insert effect. I think the last thing is considered kind of a no no but it's the only way I found to completely encapsulate a dry sound in an artificial space and then send that whole signal to a larger space via sends.

Also I should mention that I'm tending to use less and less reverb and probably only use it to enhance the space that's already present in the arrangement. So nobody really hears my reverb though back when I used gobs of reverb I use to get compliments on the verb I used. But, I'd rather people hear the music and not the reverb.


----------



## synthetic (Aug 5, 2011)

Convolution reverbs sound great if you play one instrument through. Play something complex and a) the room sound disappears b) your mix gets muddy. 

Maybe because it's a static sample that never changes. (I wonder if anyone has created a "round robin" convolution sample?) Algorithmic reverbs have chorusing to keep the sound alive. Chaos theory suggests that the sound will never bounce the same way twice in a room, maybe algorithmic reverb simulates this better? Who cares why, just try it on a mix and see if it sounds better to you. 

OR get some libraries with reverb already baked in, like Albion and Cinebrass. 

Seriously try the demo of that Valhalla Room, his stuff is killer and dirt cheap.


----------



## Jonik (Aug 5, 2011)

Tried the demo and bought it within hours. It's great! Plus he's on the ball with updates and there's a great number of user created patches on the gearslutz thread here: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/product- ... om-23.html

Definitely worth the £31.26!! Thanks for recommending it!


----------



## jsaras (Aug 6, 2011)

Just listened to the first track on your website. If I had to take a guess, your reverb is not true stereo, i.e., it sums the input signal(s) to mono and then creates a sort of "stereo" output. A true stereo reverb, like ValhallaRoom will really help to create some spaciousness.


----------



## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 10, 2011)

Thanks for listening, ive been busy these days, but soon i gonna post more details here, i should rework that track with stereo reverb, i think i used space designer with some impulses i downloaded for free on the net, maybe they were in mono?


----------



## Dietz (Aug 12, 2011)

synthetic @ Fri Aug 05 said:


> Convolution reverbs sound great if you play one instrument through. Play something complex and a) the room sound disappears [...]



... which is one of the reason why MIR was invented. Each signal source on a stage triggers a unique set of IRs for each position, depending on the chosen venue, the chosen main microphone position and its output format, the instrument type and it's rotation on stage.


----------



## jamwerks (Aug 12, 2011)

Undoubtedly the best reverb will be the real reverb.

I remember a thread in GearSlutz several years ago where a well known developer spoke about the science of reverb.

In real rooms, concert halls, etc., there are literally millions of delays (reflections) going on. Convolution reverbs give us only several thousand of these, just enough to trick our ears to hear a room (but lack the richness that larger quantities of reflections create).

On of the strong points of the Bricasti M7 is the power under the hood, undoubtedly used to create more reflections/delays (I think the M7 uses something like 10X the power of a TC 6000 reverb).

In an orchestral context, the best (imo) are the samples that give you "baked-in" those millions of reflections of a real room, such as the latest generation of HB, HS & CB. No after-the-fact convolution-solution can equal that.


----------



## Dietz (Aug 12, 2011)

jamwerks @ Fri Aug 12 said:


> Undoubtedly the best reverb will be the real reverb.
> 
> I remember a thread in GearSlutz several years ago where a well known developer spoke about the science of reverb.
> 
> In real rooms, concert halls, etc., there are literally millions of delays (reflections) going on. Convolution reverbs give us only several thousand of these, just enough to trick our ears to hear a room (but lack the richness that larger quantities of reflections create).[...]



I've read this funny statement several times on these pages now. This is about as correct as saying that a photo of a room will not show its ceiling and side walls. Never. By definition. (o) 

What should happen to all those "missing delays"? If we can hear them, we can record them. If we can record them, we can use them as audio sample (i.e. as impulse responses, in that case). It's as simple as that. Everything else is urban legend.

It is true that in reality it's not easy to make _good_ IRs - but it's not easy to make good instrument samples, either.

... maybe the "well-known developer" was talking about _modulation_. Most if not all synthetic algorithmic reverbs rely on the modulation of the reverb tail. This is actually against the common nature of reverb, but our ears have been taught to accept and like this phenomenon. - As (linear) convolution can't mimic non-linear aspects of sound, you have to be inventive to overcome these idiosyncrasies, but there are different proven ways to do so (multi-sampling of IRs, hybridization of reverb tails, etc.).

Kind regards,


----------



## synthetic (Aug 12, 2011)

Last I checked, guys who mix A movies are using algorithmic reverb.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 12, 2011)

> Convolution reverbs sound great if you play one instrument through. Play something complex and a) the room sound disappears b) your mix gets muddy.



I know what you mean, but that doesn't happen if you use separate predelays and share the tail. Also, filter the sends to remove mudrange stuff - but that's with algorithmic reverbs too.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 12, 2011)

Oh - I missed the second page of this with Dietz' answers.

Jeff, the guys who mix A movies sit on the toilet just like everyone else. 

Some are better than others, but reverbs are just different colors. The ear accepts lots of them in a mix.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 12, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 12 said:


> Jeff, the guys who mix A movies sit on the toilet just like everyone else.
> 
> Some are better than others, but reverbs are just different colors. The ear accepts lots of them in a mix.



And it is frankly irrelevant what A movie engineers use. I am not aware of too many here scoring A movies and most A movie engineers are still recording and mixing some real players and not just samples, and use expensive hardware reverbs, that most here cannot afford.

This is V.I.Control, not Big Time Movie Composer Control. :mrgreen:


----------



## jamwerks (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks to Dietz for his response, I’m not really in agreement, but I’ll answer to that in the next few days.

As for the A list mixer and algo reverbs, seems to me to be a totally different mission to add space to samples, or add a modulating tail to live instruments recorded in a hall with the natural reverb already there. o-[][]-o


----------



## Dietz (Aug 12, 2011)

synthetic @ Fri Aug 12 said:


> Last I checked, guys who mix A movies are using algorithmic reverb.


Yes, for three (good) reasons:

- They are used to it, and they have to be fast.

- Quite often, they change settings on behalf of scene-wise automation, which is still an issue with a CPU-intensive task like convolution.

- The A guys mix A orchestras recorded in A rooms, and in most cases it doesn't make sense to put sampled room on top of a real one.

... and don't forget that convolution reverbs are still in their infancy, due to the restrictions computing power imposed until not so long ago.

Kind regards,


----------



## jsaras (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't use Logic Space Designer, but here's how you can check to see if you have a "true stereo" reverb or a "mono summed to pseudo stereo" reverb:

1. Create a reverb aux send, and make sure the reverb is set to 100% wet.

2. Solo the reverb output channel.

3. Send a single instrument channel to the reverb. I'm not sure how Logic works, but in my DAW, I can pan the the signal that's being sent to the aux.

If you can hear the panning, you have a true stereo reverb. If the sound stays centered, then it's not. 

Hope that all makes sense.


----------



## synthetic (Aug 12, 2011)

A-list composers aren't using samples? Hmm. 

Two reasons to use reverb are to make dry samples sound like they were recorded in a big room and to add a nice sustain/bigger room sound. The best solution to #1 is to buy sample libraries with some space on them (Cinesamples, Spitfire, Audiobro to an extent.) For #2, I'll go with the solutions used by the guys who mixed E.T., How to Train Your Dragon, Episode 1, Dark Knight, Da Vinci Code, Avatar... 

Convolution just doesn't sound good to me. If it sounds good to you, great. But try algorithmic reverb, that chorusy tail can be very nice.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 12, 2011)

synthetic @ Fri Aug 12 said:


> A-list composers aren't using samples? Hmm.



You need to read more carefully. I wrote: "_some real players and not just samples".
_


----------



## Dan Mott (Aug 12, 2011)

QL Spaces takes up no CPU at all.


----------



## dedersen (Aug 13, 2011)

The combination of QL Spaces and an algorithmic tail (Aether in my case) has worked wonders for my mixes. I've starting playing with the VSL Hybrib reverb lately, and this has also given quite good results, but so far I haven't been able to top the Spaces+Aether combo.


----------



## dedersen (Aug 13, 2011)

By the way, one small tip (that I assimilated up from one of Mike Verta's podcasts) is to try to focus initially on making just a single instrument line sound natural, rather than trying to adjust the reverb of a busy orchestral setting.


----------



## Mahlon (Aug 13, 2011)

dedersen @ Sat Aug 13 said:


> The combination of QL Spaces and an algorithmic tail (Aether in my case) has worked wonders for my mixes. I've starting playing with the VSL Hybrib reverb lately, and this has also given quite good results, but so far I haven't been able to top the Spaces+Aether combo.



I've been impressed with the VSL Hybrid demo (unfortunately, Sonar eats up several 'starts' so after only 4 days, I'm out of demo). But it does sound fantastic and, if you want, can sound pretty much like the "warmth/just plain good sound" of Spaces. Hybrid seems to be an all around killer reverb with extreme tweaking capability. Plus, it heads a bundle of other extremely good effects, the EQ being a great one. If I had the money right now, I'd go Hybrid over everything else I've tested, for the sheer versatility -- and stellar tail.

Mahlon


----------



## Dietz (Aug 13, 2011)

Mahlon @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> I've been impressed with the VSL Hybrid demo (unfortunately, Sonar eats up several 'starts' so after only 4 days, I'm out of demo).
> 
> Mahlon


Actually you should be able to "reload" your demo starts within the first 30 day of usage. The License Control Center is needed for that.

HTH,


----------



## dedersen (Aug 14, 2011)

Love the new signature, Dietz.


----------



## dedersen (Aug 14, 2011)

Love the new signature, Dietz.


----------



## re-peat (Aug 14, 2011)

All very interesting, but it seems to me that sharing user experiences/recommendations regarding various reverbs is not really what this thread is about (if the contents of an opening post still mean anything, that is). Christian F. Perucchi has expressed some frustration at not being able to create open-sounding, clear and spacious mixes. And yet he works with Logic (which includes the very capable SpaceDesigner) and owns Altiverb as well (which is even more capable). 
Now, I might be wrong, but someone with those excellent tools, yet unable to create decent sounding productions, doesn’t need a new reverb, no, he/she needs some help with making good sounding tracks and creating musically/sonically satisfying mixes. Telling him to switch reverbs (as if that holds the key to a solution) is really rather poor advice, I find.

Besides, in the strange world of mock-ups, reverb is MUCH less important than most people believe it is anyway. Much less. If one were to make a list of all the things that contribute to the perceived quality and listening pleasure of a mock-up, reverb — and I mean: the quality of the generated reverberations — wouldn’t even figure among the first ten entries. Seriously. Much more important and instantly ear-catching than reverb, when listening to a mock-up, are things like quality of samples, flair for the idiom, programming skills, orchestration talent, a good understanding of dynamics, a healthy pair of ears, and some mixing expertise. If any of these are wanting, you can use the best reverbs in the world all you like, it won’t help a thing. And turning it around: if all these elements are impressively present, even a fairly mediocre reverb will suffice.

Clarity and spaciousness in a mix are NOT generated by the reverb (well, certainly not by reverb alone), these characteristics have to be already present before reverb is even considered. A dull and cluttered mix can never be made to sound spacious, crisp and airy, not even with the very best reverbs. Reverb can do a lot of things, but improving, let alone curing, poor mixes certainly isn’t one of them.

I’ve never heard a mock-up that had me thinking: “Wow, this sounds great mostly thanks to the wonderful reverb” and I’ve never heard a bad-sounding mock-up which held some promise of maybe sounding good if only the reverb were changed. 
I’d even argue that a mock-up can't be made to sound _fundamentally_ better by choosing Spaces rather than, say, Logic’s built-in SpaceDesigner. Sure, there will be a difference. But an essential one (in the context of the inevitable and intrinsic sonic limitations of a mock-up, that is)? No way.

Spaces, VSL Hybrid, Altiverb, Lexicon, Spat, Aether, UAD Plate140, TC VSS3, Sonnox, …. it really doesn’t matter one bit which reverb you choose if you’re doing mock-ups, provided it isn’t a too crappy one (which none of the ones mentioned in this thread are). Pick any decent sounding reverb, apply it with taste and insight to a good sounding collection of audiotracks, and you should be fine. 

_


----------



## Mahlon (Aug 14, 2011)

Dietz @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> Mahlon @ Sun Aug 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I've been impressed with the VSL Hybrid demo (unfortunately, Sonar eats up several 'starts' so after only 4 days, I'm out of demo).
> ...



Thanks for that info! I'll try it.

Mahlon


----------



## Mahlon (Aug 14, 2011)

re-peat @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> All very interesting, but it seems to me that sharing user experiences/recommendations regarding various reverbs is not really what this thread is about....



Quite right; quite right.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 14, 2011)

re-peat @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> All very interesting, but it seems to me that sharing user experiences/recommendations regarding various reverbs is not really what this thread is about (if the contents of an opening post still mean anything, that is). Christian F. Perucchi has expressed some frustration at not being able to create open-sounding, clear and spacious mixes. And yet he works with Logic (which includes the very capable SpaceDesigner) and owns Altiverb as well (which is even more capable).
> Now, I might be wrong, but someone with those excellent tools, yet unable to create decent sounding productions, doesn’t need a new reverb, no, he/she needs some help with making good sounding tracks and creating musically/sonically satisfying mixes. Telling him to switch reverbs (as if that holds the key to a solution) is really rather poor advice, I find.
> 
> Besides, in the strange world of mock-ups, reverb is MUCH less important than most people believe it is anyway. Much less. If one were to make a list of all the things that contribute to the perceived quality and listening pleasure of a mock-up, reverb — and I mean: the quality of the generated reverberations — wouldn’t even figure among the first ten entries. Seriously. Much more important and instantly ear-catching than reverb, when listening to a mock-up, are things like quality of samples, flair for the idiom, programming skills, orchestration talent, a good understanding of dynamics, a healthy pair of ears, and some mixing expertise. If any of these are wanting, you can use the best reverbs in the world all you like, it won’t help a thing. And turning it around: if all these elements are impressively present, even a fairly mediocre reverb will suffice.
> ...



Mostly I agree with this, good reverb will not save a bad arrangement or composition or mix but as someone who has mixed over the years with Space Designer, Altiverb, and Spaces, I can tell you that Spaces makes it easier. It is certainly not impossible with the others, just harder. So to say your reverb choice "really doesn’t matter one bit " is wrong IMHO. Is it the most important factor? No. Is it even in the top 5? No. But does it matter? Sure.


----------



## Simon Ravn (Aug 14, 2011)

I am with Jose and others regarding algo reverbs. Actually, I prefer not to add any reverb except the Bricasti M7 to the whole mix. Of course, if I use instruments like Vienna, LASS and Samplemodelling, I might need to run them through Altiverb to place them in a bigger room to begin with, to not make them stand out too much in a mix. But the M7 simply just feels right. It doesn't have a lot of those delay-ish, rining sounds that Altiverb, Spaces etc. have.

Personally I gave Spaces a go, but I immediately didn't like what I heard - I thought all the impulses I tried added a very pronounced delay slap-back effect to the sound. I think Altiverb does the same thing, probably to the same degree, although some of their impulses might be smoother....? So I just use Altiverb sparingly if really needed and then generally stick to adding a hall reverb on the M7 at the end of the chain. I think that helps to prevent clutter and to retain the clarity of the samples. 

Of course, if you are not happy with how your MIDI sounds, you can always drown it in reverb to disguise it... 8)


----------



## re-peat (Aug 14, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> (...) but as someone who has mixed over the years with Space Designer, Altiverb, and Spaces, I can tell you that Spaces makes it easier. It is certainly not impossible with the others, just harder. So to say your reverb choice "really doesn’t matter one bit " is wrong IMHO. Is it the most important factor? No. Is it even in the top 5? No. But does it matter? Sure.


And as someone who has mixed over the years with all the reverbs mentioned in this thread and then some (except for Aether), allow me to say (with complete conviction): _no, it doesn’t._ I haven't noticed even the slightest rise in the audioquality or the illusion of realism of mock-ups (good ones and/or bad ones) ever since Spaces got released, for instance.
Besides, anyone with properly functioning ears just knows that mock-ups are, by nature, sonically too one-dimensional and lifeless, for reverbs to matter much anyhow. Sure, there may be subtle differences depending on one's choice of reverb, and sure, some reverbs cope better than others with the artificialty of a mock-up, but I've never known a reverb, any reverb, by itself, being able to pull a mock-up out of the swamps of sonic mediocrity, which is the natural habitat for most of them, and turn it into a truly impressive and convincing audio experience.

And as for Spaces "making things easier" or sounding better: possibly (I don't agree in the least, but I understand why you persist claiming it), but that is, I believe, not the point of this discussion.

_


----------



## jamwerks (Aug 14, 2011)

re-peat @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> to pull a mock-up out of the swamps of sonic mediocrity


 :mrgreen:


----------



## José Herring (Aug 14, 2011)

Simon Ravn @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> Personally I gave Spaces a go, but I immediately didn't like what I heard - I thought all the impulses I tried added a very pronounced delay slap-back effect to the sound.



That might be due to the predelay bug in Spaces whereby after a few minutes the predelay automatically jumps up into the 200ms range upon which you have to reload the impulse in order to get it back to your normal setting. I was going to buy Spaces when I put in my HB order but until they fix this I have no idea why anybody at all is even talking about Spaces being a great reverb.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 14, 2011)

re-peat @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> And as for Spaces "making things easier" or sounding better: possibly (I don't agree in the least, but I understand why you persist claiming it), but that is, I believe, not the point of this discussion.
> 
> _



Well, I never think much in terms of "realism" with sample based compositions because samples are not the real thing. Spaces just sounds better to my ears, clearer and with more life.

I do not say this because I work for EW, it is simply a fact that since having it I have stopped using Alitverb and Space Designer. I do however still use my UAD Plate 140 and the new UA Lexicon 224 on some things as well.

As you all know, even since taking this gig I have recommended some non-EW libraries so if I felt Altiverb and Space Designer sounded as good, I would simply say "try the Spaces demo" and let it go at that but I think 90% who load up a bunch of audio tracks, pick similar IRs (difficult, I know), and A>B>Cs those 3 will reach the conclusion I reached.


----------



## JJP (Aug 14, 2011)

Simon Ravn @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> Actually, I prefer not to add any reverb except the Bricasti M7 to the whole mix. Of course, if I use instruments like Vienna, LASS and Samplemodelling, I might need to run them through Altiverb to place them in a bigger room to begin with, to not make them stand out too much in a mix. But the M7 simply just feels right. It doesn't have a lot of those delay-ish, rining sounds that Altiverb, Spaces etc. have.


I work the same way but use a tc Reverb4000 (8+ years old, outlived two computers, only needed one free software update, still sounds great). I just picked up a second one on eBay to use much the same way you use Altiverb.

It makes mixing much simpler than running ridiculous amounts of reverbs on various busses. My mixing skills are far inferior to many here. I like just having the typical send to a single reverb or an occasional second reverb. Choose a preset, maybe fiddle with the pre-delay, and then just adjust send levels. Done!

People still want to know what reverb I use. I tell them, and sometimes they are skeptical. They think I don't want to reveal my secret. :roll: My only secret is that I have no engineering skills. ...Did I say that out loud? :oops:


----------



## Mike Connelly (Aug 15, 2011)

jsaras @ Fri Aug 12 said:


> I don't use Logic Space Designer, but here's how you can check to see if you have a "true stereo" reverb or a "mono summed to pseudo stereo" reverb...



Good tip. In Space designer, it also shows in the waveform window whether it's stereo or true stereo (listed as Discrete Circle).

And for anyone with SD or another verb that can import IRs, make sure you're aware of the free IRs that are available online. The bricasti ones in particular are very nice.

http://www.samplicity.com/bricasti-m7-i ... responses/


----------



## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 15, 2011)

re-peat @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> All very interesting, but it seems to me that sharing user experiences/recommendations regarding various reverbs is not really what this thread is about (if the contents of an opening post still mean anything, that is). Christian F. Perucchi has expressed some frustration at not being able to create open-sounding, clear and spacious mixes. And yet he works with Logic (which includes the very capable SpaceDesigner) and owns Altiverb as well (which is even more capable).
> Now, I might be wrong, but someone with those excellent tools, yet unable to create decent sounding productions, doesn’t need a new reverb, no, he/she needs some help with making good sounding tracks and creating musically/sonically satisfying mixes. Telling him to switch reverbs (as if that holds the key to a solution) is really rather poor advice, I find.
> 
> Besides, in the strange world of mock-ups, reverb is MUCH less important than most people believe it is anyway. Much less. If one were to make a list of all the things that contribute to the perceived quality and listening pleasure of a mock-up, reverb — and I mean: the quality of the generated reverberations — wouldn’t even figure among the first ten entries. Seriously. Much more important and instantly ear-catching than reverb, when listening to a mock-up, are things like quality of samples, flair for the idiom, programming skills, orchestration talent, a good understanding of dynamics, a healthy pair of ears, and some mixing expertise. If any of these are wanting, you can use the best reverbs in the world all you like, it won’t help a thing. And turning it around: if all these elements are impressively present, even a fairly mediocre reverb will suffice.
> ...


As you said if it sound good without reverb it should sound great whit it but, the problem is that im working sampling other composer right now, and came across with this issue i havnt had on my own, i don`t want to judge other people work, but when i write my own stuff, i never had this issue, sometimes to get an old 40s sound i put almost no reverb at all and the mockup sounds great.
but on this gig i took, i hear all too crowded on the midrange and harsh ( cause of the writing i think) and want to know if also reverb has anything to do,
going back to work, i will keep posting,
bye and thanks!
Christian


----------

