# Course recommendations for beginner composer?



## Rudankort

Hello All!

I see many courses related to music production are on sale now. Ask.audio yearly access is 60% off, all courses on Udemy seem to be $10 (so for some courses it's 95% off), on MacProVideo course downloads are 75% off etc. etc. This looks like a big opportunity for a newbie like me, but I feel myself completely lost with so many options available.

I did some searching on the forum already, and found some recommendations (e. g. Mike Verta's courses seem to have some very good reviews), but there is no way I can do a thorough research in a few days left before the deals expire. 

So, a question to everybody. Can you name some courses which you took in the past and REALLY liked? I guess, many topics are relevant no matter what kind of music you write, but for the time being, I'm interested mostly in creating orchestral music for movies and games using my PC and sample libraries.

Thanks in advance!


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## stixman

Evenant cinematic music has just been updated worth a look when on sale


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## Rudankort

stixman said:


> Evenant cinematic music has just been updated worth a look when on sale



Well it is on sale too.  I think you get 30% off with "BLACKFRIDAY2017" coupon.


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## PaulieDC

Jason Allen's two courses on Udemy, "Film Scoring - Techniques For The Modern Composer" 1 & 2 are TEN BUCKS EACH, absolute no brainer for that price.

Groove3 has their all access pass for the year for $99, last day is TODAY I think. I have that, and the number of courses is staggering, but my favorite is one of their longest courses, Orchestral Library Toolbox. It's 11 hours long and they don't stick to one library nor do they mention what DAW to use. They use Cubase but what they teach applies to all. Another excellent Groove3 course is Creating Realistic MIDI Strings, and that one really shows how to use NI's Symphony Series, along with general composition. But these two just scratch the surface, Groove3 is LOADED with content. They even have over 2 dozen videos just on using Studio One, my personal DAW. Not many places have that.

My other favorite are David Earl's classes on MacProVideo. I bought several of his, my favorite being https://www.macprovideo.com/tutorial/eastwest-103-tools-film-tv-games, which is the best course out there IMO if you use EastWest Hollywood and/or Symphonic Strings. But even if you don't use those libraries, you learn a TON on the process, and he's such a great speaker/teacher. Again, IMO.

Best free training I've found and am currently going through, by FAR, are some put out by SpitFire Audio and Junkie XL:

Spitfire
How to Program Realistic Sounding Strings - Part 1
How to Program Realistic Sounding Strings - Part 2

JunkieXL
Composing for Strings (Part 1) - Studio Time: S2E1
Composing for Strings (Part 2) - Studio Time: S2E56

And then if you want a formal structured online course, there's always scoreclub.net

Have Fun!


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## ed buller

all of Alain's courses are fabulous . scoreclub.net

best

e


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## PaulieDC

Amen. I'm planning a time in 2018 where that becomes my online University.


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## Rudankort

Oh wow, thanks a lot *PaulieDC*! This was super useful. And I even still had time to grab this bundle: https://www.udemy.com/music-composition-bundle-composition-film-scoring/learn/v4/overview
which includes the two courses you've mentioned, plus some extra stuff on top, and everything for $12. That was no brainer. I missed the sale on scoreclub.net, but I watched free previews and was quite impressed. So, I guess at some point I'll study there too, but for now I have enough to have me started. Thanks again.


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## DavidY

Rudankort said:


> Oh wow, thanks a lot *PaulieDC*! This was super useful. And I even still had time to grab this bundle: https://www.udemy.com/music-composition-bundle-composition-film-scoring/learn/v4/overview
> which includes the two courses you've mentioned, plus some extra stuff on top, and everything for $12. That was no brainer.


Unusually for me I managed to see this *before* the offer expired (3h 27 min to go as I type this) so I've spent my £12. Which would have been Ok if I hadn't clicked on one or two (ish...) other courses at the same time. 
It will keep me busy for a while though. Thanks to you and PaulieDC.


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## ohernie

Many thanks - glad I saw this thread. Are the non-sale prices displayed on Udemy real or do they have continuous sales?


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## Sami

Can you read music and play an instrument? If yes, pick up scores from the real masters (doesnt't matter if it's John Williams or Ralph Vaughan-Williams) and transcribe them. Then consider paying money.
That said -and nothing against anyone here- Alain's courses are vastly superior to some other offerings that were brought up. 
Then again, if you want to do what someone once described as the "basic epic thing" then you can do much worse than what Evenant has on offer.


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## synthpunk

+1 Walid's course looks excellent
https://courses.evenant.com/p/cinematic-music-from-idea-to-finished-recording/

The few Udemy's I have previewed have looked cheesy.



stixman said:


> Evenant cinematic music has just been updated worth a look when on sale


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## ohernie

Sami said:


> Can you read music and play an instrument? If yes, pick up scores from the real masters (doesnt't matter if it's John Williams or Ralph Vaughan-Williams) and transcribe them. Then consider paying money.



That's how a learned a lot of my electronics. There used to be books of schematics and I read them, cover to cover. The difference is those books included explanations describing what each component did. I'm not sure that for a neophyte, i.e., me, reading and transcribing would translate to understanding the underlying concepts and thought processes. I'm thinking it's worth the price of the lessons to get the explanations.


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## DavidY

ohernie said:


> Many thanks - glad I saw this thread. Are the non-sale prices displayed on Udemy real or do they have continuous sales?


Must admit as a newcomer I'm starting to wonder the same thing. 
However I don't begrudge spending my £12 on that Udemy course mentioned above - it seems OK for what I've got from it so far.


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## Sami

ohernie said:


> That's how a learned a lot of my electronics. There used to be books of schematics and I read them, cover to cover. The difference is those books included explanations describing what each component did. I'm not sure that for a neophyte, i.e., me, reading and transcribing would translate to understanding the underlying concepts and thought processes. I'm thinking it's worth the price of the lessons to get the explanations.



I don't think that reading textbooks is comparable to transcribing scores. If you have basic musical training, eyes, ears and hands (which, assuming you can read music and play an instrument, you do) you already have all you need to teach yourself a huge amount of skills without ANY formal training in composition. 
I'm completely with @mverta on this: Learn music from the scores first, THEN read books and get formal training.


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## Username

I highly recommend reading through Fux' Gradus ad parnassum. It is easily understandable, condensed and available online for free. 

It won't teach you anything about the production process, but to avoid the trap of ostinatos and riff-like structures being the foundations of your music, some grasp of counterpoint is a necessity.


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## ohernie

Found it, downloaded it and scanned it. Thank you, thank you, thank you!


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## Rudankort

Sami said:


> I don't think that reading textbooks is comparable to transcribing scores. If you have basic musical training, eyes, ears and hands (which, assuming you can read music and play an instrument, you do) you already have all you need to teach yourself a huge amount of skills without ANY formal training in composition.
> I'm completely with @mverta on this: Learn music from the scores first, THEN read books and get formal training.



While I'm totally on board with this idea, I think that Mike's approach is a bit too extreme. I remember he said somewhere that he did not even recommend to watch his theory class before you "figured out everything yourself", and that he regretted doing it. Well, it will work, but it can take you longer to figure out certain things on your own. It's almost like learning electronics by decomposing your PC (good luck with that). I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea. Besides, Mike's own masterclass are also "theory" in the sense that you get "distilled" knowledge from him, you immediately learn certain things which work, instead of experimenting and making mistakes of your own. My personal opinion is that theory and practice should go in parallel and reinforce each other.


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## Rudankort

Username said:


> I highly recommend reading through Fux' Gradus ad parnassum. It is easily understandable, condensed and available online for free.
> 
> It won't teach you anything about the production process, but to avoid the trap of ostinatos and riff-like structures being the foundations of your music, some grasp of counterpoint is a necessity.



Thanks for recommendation. The version I've downloaded looks very ancient, both in terms of language and and music notation used. Are there newer editions out there?


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## Sami

Rudankort said:


> While I'm totally on board with this idea, I think that Mike's approach is a bit too extreme. I remember he said somewhere that he did not even recommend to watch his theory class before you "figured out everything yourself", and that he regretted doing it. Well, it will work, but it can take you longer to figure out certain things on your own. It's almost like learning electronics by decomposing your PC (good luck with that). I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea. Besides, Mike's own masterclass are also "theory" in the sense that you get "distilled" knowledge from him, you immediately learn certain things which work, instead of experimenting and making mistakes of your own. My personal opinion is that theory and practice should go in parallel and reinforce each other.



You're probably right about that. In that regard, I highly recommend Alain's Courses and what the late Peter Alexander have on offering. 

Regarding Fux, Alexander Publishing (the company run by the late Peter Alexander) offers a revised/renewed version of Gradus ad Parnassum. That said, I don't really believe in this work; I think modern music has moved so far beyond those principles that there are probably better works to ease you into today's harmonic/musical world. It's not a bad book, I don't believe it's truly helpful though, either.


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## Rudankort

Sami said:


> You're probably right about that. In that regard, I highly recommend Alain's Courses and what the late Peter Alexander have on offering.



Thanks for your advice. I keep Alain's courses in mind (I assume we are talking about https://scoreclub.net/), I watched his free samples and thought they were interesting and well presented. But I keep forgetting about Alexander Publishing stuff, although I ran across this web site more than once in the past. Will check it out in more detail.



Sami said:


> Regarding Fux, Alexander Publishing (the company run by the late Peter Alexander) offers a revised/renewed version of Gradus ad Parnassum. That said, I don't really believe in this work; I think modern music has moved so far beyond those principles that there are probably better works to ease you into today's harmonic/musical world. It's not a bad book, I don't believe it's truly helpful though, either.



You voiced the doubts I had about this book very precisely. I'm also skeptical about works which are this old. I mean, it might be great and influential, but so much happened since then, even the same ideas could probably be expressed much better using all the accumulated knowledge and experience we have today. There is a reason why we study Newton's laws, but don't read the original Newton's works instead of modern textbooks.


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## Sami

Rudankort said:


> There is a reason why we study Newton's laws, but don't read the original Newton's works instead of modern textbooks.



Couldn't have put it better myself


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## danielb

Udemy is always on sale.. If you miss one just wait some days it will be on sale again soon...


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## Sami

danielb said:


> Udemy is always on sale.. If you miss one just wait some days it will be on sale again soon...



Quality and low prices are very rarely seen holding hands.


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## danielb

Well not really true, you can find great courses on udemy at very low prices... I learned the 3d software Blender with a really great course for 15dollars...hours of videos very well explained..
But I guess it really depends on the teacher and like anyone can put courses online there it's a little bit à lottery..


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## jonathanparham

Rudankort said:


> Thanks for your advice. I keep Alain's courses in mind (I assume we are talking about https://scoreclub.net/), I watched his free samples and thought they were interesting and well presented. But I keep forgetting about Alexander Publishing stuff, although I ran across this web site more than once in the past. Will check it out in more detail.
> 
> 
> 
> You voiced the doubts I had about this book very precisely. I'm also skeptical about works which are this old. I mean, it might be great and influential, but so much happened since then, even the same ideas could probably be expressed much better using all the accumulated knowledge and experience we have today. There is a reason why we study Newton's laws, but don't read the original Newton's works instead of modern textbooks.



I have both the late Alexanders Professional Composer PDFs and have taken Three of Alain's Scoreclub's courses. Both are good BUT you're going to have to put the time and practice and study. No mircowaving or hacks, shortcuts with either one IMO. I talked to Peter Alexander a few years before he died and what I remember was he was very proud of the course and always emphasized studying the masters. I have not finished Alexanders Professional composer courses, but I'd say it's like an updated Piston book. Much more relevant than the textbooks because he even has a guide to comparing the articulations for sample libraries and IR for reverbs, and of course score examples for instrument families. Very relavent. Since Peters passing I'm not sure if the material is being updated to account for new libraries and such. It's his voice still on the recordings; Knowledgeable but sad. 

However Alain's courses are more toward writing and practice, though he has two orchestration courses that people appear to like. I love his philosophy of your mind coming to follow what you heart improvised. You mentioned Fux. For instance in Alain's counterpoint course he'll tell you, 'Here's an old rule you don't see followed today.' He won't say you have to know it or force you to know it BUT he will tell you and give you a written and playable example. I had an enjoyable counterpoint course in college but there were two species he showed that I hadn't learned. I'd say all his courses emphasize writing and more writing. Also he's always writing, playing, AND giving examples in nice bite sized chunks. I took these courses because my music classes were 25 years ago and I didn't want to do an expensive online course without some proper review. I got more than I bargained for with Scoreclub and I'm very happy with results.


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## Rudankort

Thanks Jonathan, this was really helpful. And yes, I'm not looking for any shortcuts, so that's not going to be a problem.


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## KeithAdv

(I just realized that I have been reading this forum for many months but never registered. Turns out this is my first post. I'll be darned. Hi, everyone!)

Anyway, don't forget to check out Groove3's holiday bundles. I don't think I can post the link because this is my first post, so Google "Groove3 - Limited Time Holiday Bundle Offers" and you'll get there.

They're going away pretty soon so click in quick if you want 'em. One of them--The Production Powerhouse Bundle--is absolutely a steal, in my opinion. For $48, they give you:

- Drum Replacement Explained®
- Creating Realistic MIDI Drums
- Creating Realistic MIDI Strings
- Creating Realistic MIDI Horns
- Arranging Pop Horns Explained®
- Orchestral Library Toolbox
- Singer / Songwriter Production & Arranging
- Creativity Kickstart

...works out to about $6 a course. Crazy deal.

There are some other nice ones there, too.


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## benmrx

PaulieDC said:


> Jason Allen's two courses on Udemy, "Film Scoring - Techniques For The Modern Composer" 1 & 2 are TEN BUCKS EACH, absolute no brainer for that price.



Thanks for the heads up on this! I just checked it out, and for the next few hours you can buy a bundle that includes Composition 1+2, AND Film Scoring 1 + 2 for a total of $12. That's a crazy good price.


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## AdamAlake

http://mikeverta.com

All you will ever need.


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## agarner32

Here are two more resources to add to the list.
http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/45335-Lesson-1-GENERAL-REVIEW-Strings-amp-Woodwinds (<br />
Alan Belkin) - Lots of great information including theory, orchestration and counterpoint.
http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/45335-Lesson-1-GENERAL-REVIEW-Strings-amp-Woodwinds (<br />
Principles of Orchestration (Northernsounds))


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## Rudankort

AdamAlake said:


> http://mikeverta.com
> All you will ever need.



Mike is awesome, but his own advice (which I agree with) is to learn from different people.


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## eboats

Sami said:


> Can you read music and play an instrument? If yes, pick up scores from the real masters (doesnt't matter if it's John Williams or Ralph Vaughan-Williams) and transcribe them. Then consider paying money.
> That said -and nothing against anyone here- Alain's courses are vastly superior to some other offerings that were brought up.
> Then again, if you want to do what someone once described as the "basic epic thing" then you can do much worse than what Evenant has on offer.



Are you saying to pick up the cds and transcribe them by ear or pick up the printed scores and rewrite them (a practice that phillip glass has done to make it sink in)?


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## mverta

Rudankort said:


> Mike is awesome, but his own advice (which I agree with) is to learn from different people.



Well, more specifically my advice is to learn from people who can provide you with clear, actual skills and techniques you can put to use immediately in your own work, and whose teaching style (and hopefully music) inspires you. Hopefully this is multiple people. In practice, however...

I personally advanced the farthest when given a hands-on tool - something tangible, practical, and ideally simple - to then take to the piano and work with; kind of like being taught a great exercise and perfect form by a trainer - ultimately we have to do the actual work, but we'll develop in the best way without injury. I listened to an awful lot of people talk about music; talk about techniques - just as there are no shortage of YouTube videos of people saying, "Do [x] and [z]" without explaining exactly how, or more importantly, why! In my own study, I worked with people whom I could say at the end of every lesson, I had a real, practical skill or tool in my box to begin using, and all I had to do then was start working with it. It's what made a career possible, and it's why that's exactly how I teach my Masterclasses. Good luck!


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## Rudankort

@mverta, thanks for clarification and advice.


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## Sami

There is no resource I recommend more warmly than @mverta Masterclasses. The primary reason for that is that he preaches what I teach all my students, music is best learned from the masters. The issue today is that most people have no clue about who the real masters of orchestral music were and have no engram of that music in their head. I don't want to judge anyone of the resources named above but with a few notable exceptions (Mike, Alain, to some extent Peter), the people who teach those courses are not exactly masters of orchestral music.
There are WORLDS between proper composers and people able to produce "likeable" orchestral music. The issue nowadays is that we believe a lot of crap to be good, because our artistic taste has atrophied by having crap presented to it. It's like eating fast food instead of proper food, you eventually come to believe that it's actual food.
One can watch all of Udemy and everything else and still not have a clue about writing good music because it's not only a matter of technique, but also of taste and of artistic choice.
Mike's holy grail is Williams, mine happens to be Gustav Mahler. Pick one you like and consume their work, both with your ears and with your brain, i.e. with pen, paper and piano.




eboats said:


> Are you saying to pick up the cds and transcribe them by ear or pick up the printed scores and rewrite them (a practice that phillip glass has done to make it sink in)?



That depends on one's skillset. If you don't read music and you aren't ear-trained, it certainly helps to first learn those skills, then do one of the following:
-Listen to music while at the piano, try to find the melody you're listening to, write it down, then find the harmony, write that down and try to figure out the orchestration, then look at the score and see if you're right (That's Mike's suggestion)
-Pick up a score and read along (not very effective, but better than nothing)
-Make a condensed score or a piano reduction of the score
-Make a mockup of the score
-My personal favourite: Make a condensed score, then reorchestrate the music with different instruments and see what effect you gain. I've seen student re-orchestrations which I regard as superior to the original material (mostly because technique and instruments have evolved).


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## Sears Poncho

Sami said:


> That depends on one's skillset. If you don't read music and you aren't ear-trained, you're not a real musician,.



That might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on the internet. That's no easy feat, I've been on it for over a quarter century, yet you are probably #1. Way to go.

The Beatles, Elvis, Jimi Hendrix?? Eric Clapton? Paul Simon? Not real musicians?? BWHAAAHAHAAAHAAAAA!! How stupid! I don't think Sinatra could read music. By most accounts, Pavarotti could not read at any significant level. Geez Louise!  Blind musicians? Ray Charles?


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## Sami

Sears Poncho said:


> That might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on the internet. That's no easy feat, I've been on it for over a quarter century, yet you are probably #1. Way to go.
> 
> The Beatles, Elvis, Jimi Hendrix?? Eric Clapton? Paul Simon? Not real musicians?? BWHAAAHAHAAAHAAAAA!! How stupid! I don't think Sinatra could read music. By most accounts, Pavarotti could not read at any significant level. Geez Louise!  Blind musicians? Ray Charles?


Fair, too much whiskey. Edited for precision.


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## mverta

That is an entirely separate and divisive argument to have, but there's a common ground: if you can't read or write, it is very hard to learn from and be inspired by great literature. It is comforting to know that we can connect deeply with people on simple musical levels even without being literate. It is also true that there are levels we can't get to without being literate (Bach, Beethoven, Ravel... John Williams (there is no Star Wars, Raiders, Harry Potter, etc., without extreme literacy. Williams can also write a pop tune.)) So, ultimately, it is about freedom, choices, and control. The more we know, the more we can do; the more power we have, the more control we have over our destiny. This is a huge reward for spending couple of weeks with flashcards.


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## Paul T McGraw

AdamAlake said:


> http://mikeverta.com
> 
> All you will ever need.



I always enjoy Mike's courses. They are full of great advice and a lot of humor.


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## Sears Poncho

Sami said:


> Fair, too much whiskey. Edited for precision.


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## dzilizzi

Thanks for all these great suggestions. I recently picked up this class at Udemy. It isn't on sale now, but I'm sure it will be again. I paid $10 or $15 for it. It is pretty basic to start. But so far I'm enjoying it. She has a few classes in orchestration 
https://www.udemy.com/orchestrationcourse/


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## Rudankort

dzilizzi said:


> Thanks for all these great suggestions. I recently picked up this class at Udemy. It isn't on sale now, but I'm sure it will be again. I paid $10 or $15 for it. It is pretty basic to start. But so far I'm enjoying it. She has a few classes in orchestration
> https://www.udemy.com/orchestrationcourse/



It's on sale right now for $12, 55 more minutes according to the site.


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## Rudankort

Sami said:


> Quality and low prices are very rarely seen holding hands.



I've just realized that during the sale Udemy vs. Mike Verta is like $12 vs. $18, so the difference is not huge and probably cannot be used to judge the difference in quality.  And without any sales it's like $200 vs. $30, so even more misleading.


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## stixman

When you return to the site prices go up so use another browser to get original lower price £12 cookies bring it up to £15 per course


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## dzilizzi

And if you already own it, it seems to show only the full price.

Okay, so I bought one of Mike's classes and I notice a difference in that his last for 6 hours straight whereas Udemy and Coursera classes have sections where they cover a point. I haven't tried going back to Mike's class after pausing, so not sure if it works if you can't watch it all in one sitting.


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## robgb

Sami said:


> Quality and low prices are very rarely seen holding hands.


Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Some of the best books I've ever read were cheap paperback originals. Some of the best concerts I've seen took place in mid-level venues featuring up and coming bands. Some of my favorite sample libraries are low cost libraries. And one of the best tutorial series I've ever viewed was completely free on YouTube. Price has absolutely zero to do with quality.


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## Ellest

One thing to note is that Udemy really is always on "sale." It's a common marketing tactic to have something listed with a high "original" price then offering them at a "discount."


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## Sami

robgb said:


> Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Some of the best books I've ever read were cheap paperback originals. Some of the best concerts I've seen took place in mid-level venues featuring up and coming bands. Some of my favorite sample libraries are low cost libraries. And one of the best tutorial series I've ever viewed was completely free on YouTube. Price has absolutely zero to do with quality.




Right, and your 99p hamburger is gourmet food. 
I seriously don't get how a bit of banter and provocation get people so annoyed on this forum.


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## robgb

Sami said:


> Right, and your 99p hamburger is gourmet food.
> I seriously don't get how a bit of banter and provocation get people so annoyed on this forum.


Because it was a ridiculous comment.


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## Sami

robgb said:


> Because it was a ridiculous comment.



I wouldn't say "ridiculous". It was slightly overdrawn, but that was obvious to any adult. In its core though, not completely wrong. What surprises me is that you looked over the actual, possibly even useful to the OP information I gave further below to pick out that comment, behind which I stand by the way. Udemy is a very sketchy resource. You can get something good for 10 of your dollars, in which case you were -by any metric- "lucky". You can pay tenfold for Alain or threefold for Mike and certainly get something good.
Any resource which is permanently on "sale" is suspicious to me. I might be in a minority but I *want* to pay for good content and as a creator I would feel insulted if a company offered my course at 90% off the original price 90% of the time. Make of that what you want.


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## Rudankort

robgb said:


> And one of the best tutorial series I've ever viewed was completely free on YouTube.



Perhaps you can remember what tutorial series that was?


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## DavidY

With apologies to the OP for asking questions on your thread... 



mverta said:


> It's what made a career possible, and it's why that's exactly how I teach my Masterclasses. Good luck!


I did want to ask @mverta if you could say more about how your classes are structured?
I noticed there are a couple of links in your signature (My VI-Control Mega-Thread - Online Masterclasses) but I couldn't get the links to work. Am I making a newbie error?

(Also how do you insert @mentions like the above in this forum- I copied and pasted it from one of the earlier posts but couldn't work out how to do it from the editor.)


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## Rudankort

DavidY said:


> With apologies to the OP for asking questions on your thread...



Just for the record, I don't consider it "my" thread. It's a thread about courses in Newbie forum, I'm sure many newbies are interested in this. The more information is gathered here the better.



DavidY said:


> (Also how do you insert @mentions like the above in this forum- I copied and pasted it from one of the earlier posts but couldn't work out how to do it from the editor.)



Personally I just add @ in front of user name, and forum engine does the rest: @DavidY


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## robgb

Rudankort said:


> Perhaps you can remember what tutorial series that was?


It isn't relevant to orchestration. But there is a great orchestration channel on YouTube, which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSt_ZRe_mla4tRgYC_GNElQ


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## joebaggan

robgb said:


> Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Some of the best books I've ever read were cheap paperback originals. And one of the best tutorial series I've ever viewed was completely free on YouTube. Price has absolutely zero to do with quality.



Not always true. Try Samual Adler's 4th edition "Study of Orchestration" book. It's over $100, not cheap, but likely the best book on orchestration you'll find and written by one of the most respected people in the field. And how about private lessons - one on one in-person lessons with a quality teacher are indispensable and usually not cheap.


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## agarner32

Regarding Udemy, I purchased a few just to check them out since they are so cheap. The courses I got are very good and especially for the money. I agree that the sale thing is a bit suspicious, but there are some good courses. I got the Camtasia 9 course because I'm interested in doing some music tutorials for my theory classes. The course is really quite good. I'd say as good or better than Lynda.com courses. I also got the one on video game music and so far that one is done very well in my opinion.

Regarding the orchestration class, it's basic information, but I think it is done well. I have degrees in orchestration and composition so I knew it would be basic for me, but I was curious to see how the information was presented. It was cheap enough so I went for it. I can see it being useful to a beginning composer. I actually learned a few little tips on string articulations.

Forgetting about how you feel about their sales tactics, I think there are some really good courses from Udemy. I'd be curious to hear from others who have purchased their courses.


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## Ellest

agarner32 said:


> Regarding Udemy, I purchased a few just to check them out since they are so cheap. The courses I got are very good and especially for the money. I agree that the sale thing is a bit suspicious, but there are some good courses.


As I said, there's nothing suspicious about their pricing. You just have to think of it as their face value is actually $12 or $15. It's really a common tactic to list an inflated price along with a "discounted" price to make the value seem more attractive.


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## Ellest

joebaggan said:


> Not always true. Try Samual Adler's 4th edition "Study of Orchestration" book. It's over $100, not cheap, but likely the best book on orchestration you'll find and written by one of the most respected people in the field.


I think you can get the 3rd edition as a pdf for free on the web.


----------



## agarner32

Ellest said:


> It's really a common tactic to list an inflated price along with a "discounted" price to make the value seem more attractive.


You're absolutely right, it's what outlet stores do all the time. $12, $15 or whatever the prices are, the courses I got are done well. I think the $15 (normal price $199) is smart on their part because people go for it. If the numbers they have listed are accurate, they are making a killing. Their comprehensive theory course states 9,842 students are enrolled. At $15 a course that's $146,630 just for one course. Somebody is making serious money.

Marketing strategies aside, they have some good choices for the original poster.


----------



## AdamAlake

dzilizzi said:


> And if you already own it, it seems to show only the full price.
> 
> Okay, so I bought one of Mike's classes and I notice a difference in that his last for 6 hours straight whereas Udemy and Coursera classes have sections where they cover a point. I haven't tried going back to Mike's class after pausing, so not sure if it works if you can't watch it all in one sitting.



Composing must be tough with this short attention span.


----------



## tehreal

AdamAlake said:


> Composing must be tough with this short attention span.



It's obvious that his point is that he prefers learning materials that are more organized/structured. I agree with him.


----------



## AdamAlake

tehreal said:


> It's obvious that his point is that he prefers learning materials that are more organized/structured. I agree with him.



Mike's classes are structured. How many have you taken?


----------



## Sami

AdamAlake said:


> Composing must be tough with this short attention span.


Counting the seconds until the vultures descend upon you to rend you asunder over daring to make humor


----------



## joebaggan

Ellest said:


> I think you can get the 3rd edition as a pdf for free on the web.



The 4th edition comes with an associated web site where you can hear the examples in the book. That is absolutely key. I've read other orchestration books without audio examples and they aren't nearly as useful.


----------



## agarner32

AdamAlake said:


> Mike's classes are structured. How many have you taken?


They are far less structured compared to courses that have short videos with separate links for various topics and are preplanned and edited. It's not a value judgement at all, I have several of Mike's classes and love them. People learn in different ways so one method of teaching may work better for an individual.


----------



## ism

joebaggan said:


> Not always true. Try Samual Adler's 4th edition "Study of Orchestration" book. It's over $100, not cheap, but likely the best book on orchestration you'll find and written by one of the most respected people in the field. And how about private lessons - one on one in-person lessons with a quality teacher are indispensable and usually not cheap.



I've looked at Adler - and I'd love work through this if I were taking a 4 year degree. But it looked incredibly onerous to work through on my own. I can just see my self getting buried in mountains of details of the hundreds of different nuances
of something like when you should or shouldn't double the upper register of the piccolo with the bassoons. The Cambridge companion to orchestration was even more confusing in that it starts with hundreds of pages of encyclopedic detail of instrumentation, followed by hundreds of pages of complex assignments.

Very possibly, I'm just not ready for this level of text. Or maybe I'm just allowing myself to be intimidated by the density of these texts? But in all seriously, I do suspect that implicit in working through such books is the presence of a prof to add the actual pedagogical structure.

Any advice on self study of this kind of tome?


----------



## Øivind

I would get everything from Mike Verta, that stuff is 100% gold-pressed latinum.

After that, i would recommend checking out Thinkspace Music for the Media.
vol1: https://thinkspaceeducation.com/mftm1/?v=c2f3f489a005
and
vol2: https://thinkspaceeducation.com/mftm2/?v=c2f3f489a005


----------



## Sami

ism said:


> Any advice on self study of this kind of tome?



My best advice, having had to work through both Adler and Sevsay (and two others) is to not study this kind of tome. I learned more from score-studying, transcribing and re-orchestrating than from the tomes. The key -im my eye- is to produce yourself, even if that means re-producing other peoples' music.

EDIT:
Except @mverta courses, there is one resource I recommend wholeheartedly:
https://www.digitalconcerthall.com

This and IMSLP for the open-source stuff. But money spent on scores is never badly spent.

If there is sufficient interest, I might make a video about how I learned this kinda stuff while I was at college with some VI applications etc.


----------



## ism

agarner32 said:


> They are far less structured compared to courses that have short videos with separate links for various topics and are preplanned and edited. It's not a value judgement at all, I have several of Mike's classes and love them. People learn in different ways so one method of teaching may work better for an individual.




There a point here about Mike's pedagogical approach though. I have a lot of Mike's masterclasses and love them... but ... while they do what to set out to do beautifully, and have an important role in the learning process I don't think they can entirely replace more structured material. At least not for everyone.

Where I think they are particularly brilliant and unique is in forging a link between the more structure, sometimes theoretical material and the actual practice of composition. A very hard thing to do on paper, and its the advent of web video makes this kind of presentation possible.

I do sometimes come away from think wanting a companion book though. With theory. And exercises. And well articulated critical pedagogy.

Not that I miss my days of working through endless voices leading assignments as a kind of math problem without ever really connecting with actual music.

But what I really want is Mike to team up with someone just a touch more academic and produce the "Mike Verta Masterclass Very Rigorous Companion" volume that is a heavy enough book that you actually risk injuring bystanders if you drop it.


----------



## ism

And as a corollary to that - what I'd love for someone like Adler to do is team up with some one like Mike an produce a series of companion videos entitled something like "Orchestration - What I Actually Meant when I Beat all those Theoretical details to Death"


----------



## ism

Sami said:


> ...
> If there is sufficient interest, I might make a video about how I learned this kinda stuff while I was at college with some VI applications etc.




I would love such a video.


----------



## ism

Sami said:


> My best advice, having had to work through both Adler and Sevsay (and two others) is to not study this kind of tome. I learned more from score-studying, transcribing and re-orchestrating than from the tomes. The key -im my eye- is to produce yourself, even if that means re-producing other peoples' music.
> 
> EDIT:
> Except @mverta courses, there is one resource I recommend wholeheartedly:
> https://www.digitalconcerthall.com
> 
> This and IMSLP for the open-source stuff. But money spent on scores is never badly spent.
> 
> If there is sufficient interest, I might make a video about how I learned this kinda stuff while I was at college with some VI applications etc.




If I can put of my critical-pedagogy-theorist hat for a minute, I have to say that this approach - which I'd paraphrase as "just throw yourself into the literature" - sounds just as intimidated to me as the Addler-style approach of "just throw yourself into the theory". I think I would drown either way.

Certainly some people tend more towards valuing theory and others towards practice. And I don't doubt that some people have the particular genius that lets the just absorb all the theory they need from practice, and perhaps vice-versa.

But in general I think what the really critical pedagogical question is how to blend the two.

If you're studying Adler, then I think implicitly in the text is that you're in a serious music program and immersed in music in a variety of practical ways at the same time. An assumption that breaks for people like myself scouring the internet for how to learn.

Similarly one thing I don't always buy in Mike's masterclasses is the way he sometimes (though certainly not always) downplays the role theory and formal study (what is kind of what I was dramatizing in the above post about a theoretical companion volume). I'd speculate that its easy for him to do this because he already has a such a great wealth of theory and structured study to draw on. And probably because he posses that certain kind of genius to extract theory directly from practice. (That said, I don't have his "Theory" class, though I really should pick it up sometime).

And in general theory is at its most powerful when its invisible. That is, when you've absorbed it at such a deep level that you don't need to think about it consciously anymore - and here I include the cases where it's been absorbed by osmosis - ie learn to play enough three chord pop songs as a teenager and you're can never not carry around the basic theory of the I-IV-V, even if you've never written it down formally.

But this is a completely different thing that saying you don't need theory.

I have a stack of great books on music theory. And lots of videos and scores, online course.

What I'm struggling with is a way to really stitch it all together in a pedagogically coherent way. And things like web videos, or the companion recordings of Adler begin to recognize that the assumptions imposed by the medium of paper in learning composition really don't apply.

Mike's classes are one highlight in re-thinking pedagogical structure, as are Norman Ludwin's books, and Alain's courses (his website has an explicitly theorization of his pedagogical approach, which I really appreciate). I haven't remotely got my head around the scope of their innovations yet, but I find it entirely (theoretically) fascinating, and (practically) very exciting.

Meanwhile, I'm sorry to say that a lot of Udemy style courses feel more like cynical exercises in internet monetization rather than representing any serious thought about how to use new medias to better learn music (though of course it varies with individual instructors - my experience in general though: find real, independent, composers, and avoid the corporate package courses like the plague, $15 towards any of the above is likely to be a much better spent that any 95%-for-a-limited-time discounted corporately marketed course).


But I also feel there's a lot of great things yet to be innovated ... and we're nowhere near the limit of what's possible.


And so its in this is why I'd be excited by the kind of video you describe!


----------



## Sami

ism said:


> If I can put of my critical-pedagogy-theorist hat for a minute, I have to say that this approach - which I'd paraphrase as "just throw yourself into the literature" - sounds just as intimidated to me as the Addler-style approach of "just throw yourself into the theory". I think I would drown either way.
> 
> Certainly some people tend more towards valuing theory and others towards practice. And I don't doubt that some people have the particular genius that lets the just absorb all the theory they need from practice, and perhaps vice-versa.
> 
> But in general I think what the really critical pedagogical question is how to blend the two.
> 
> If you're studying Adler, then I think implicitly in the text is that you're in a serious music program and immersed in music in a variety of practical ways at the same time. An assumption that breaks for people like myself scouring the internet for how to learn.
> 
> Similarly one thing I don't always buy in Mike's masterclasses is the way he sometimes (though certainly not always) downplays the role theory and formal study (what is kind of what I was dramatizing in the above post about a theoretical companion volume). I'd speculate that its easy for him to do this because he already has a such a great wealth of theory and structured study to draw on. And probably because he posses that certain kind of genius to extract theory directly from practice. (That said, I don't have his "Theory" class, though I really should pick it up sometime).
> 
> And in general theory is at its most powerful when its invisible. That is, when you've absorbed it at such a deep level that you don't need to think about it consciously anymore - and here I include the cases where it's been absorbed by osmosis - ie learn to play enough three chord pop songs as a teenager and you're can never not carry around the basic theory of the I-IV-V, even if you've never written it down formally.
> 
> But this is a completely different thing that saying you don't need theory.
> 
> I have a stack of great books on music theory. And lots of videos and scores, online course.
> 
> What I'm struggling with is a way to really stitch it all together in a pedagogically coherent way. And things like web videos, or the companion recordings of Adler begin to recognize that the assumptions imposed by the medium of paper in learning composition really don't apply.
> 
> Mike's classes are one highlight in re-thinking pedagogical structure, as are Norman Ludwin's books, and Alain's courses (his website has an explicitly theorization of his pedagogical approach, which I really appreciate). I haven't remotely got my head around the scope of their innovations yet, but I find it entirely (theoretically) fascinating, and (practically) very exciting.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm sorry to say that a lot of Udemy style courses feel more like cynical exercises in internet monetization rather than representing any serious thought about how to use new medias to better learn music (though of course it varies with individual instructors - my experience in general though: find real, independent, composers, and avoid the corporate package courses like the plague, $15 towards any of the above is likely to be a much better spent that any 95%-for-a-limited-time discounted corporately marketed course).
> 
> 
> But I also feel there's a lot of great things yet to be innovated ... and we're nowhere near the limit of what's possible.
> 
> 
> And so its in this is why I'd be excited by the kind of video you describe!



I see what you mean and I also know where you're coming from seeing as I felt the same way when I was studying. You're right in assuming I'm formally trained, I studied composition and conducting at a conservatory and I teach orchestration and composition at a university alongside composing and conducting concert music for a living. I'm just a bit scared that this might make me a less-than-optimal teacher for what you are looking for since I am not myself trained in teaching media composers and I'm not particularly great at virtual instruments, I just dabble in them occasionally when work demands it. My main line of work is working with live players in a concert environment. 
In any case, I can give it a try and maybe someone will find my insights useful, I'm more than happy to try and pass along everything I know for you guys, I just sincerely hope it's what you are looking for.
The other issue is time, since I'm actually drowning in obligations, but I'll do my best.


----------



## ism

Sami said:


> I see what you mean and I also know where you're coming from seeing as I felt the same way when I was studying. You're right in assuming I'm formally trained, I studied composition and conducting at a conservatory and I teach orchestration and composition at a university alongside composing and conducting concert music for a living. I'm just a bit scared that this might make me a less-than-optimal teacher for what you are looking for since I am not myself trained in teaching media composers and I'm not particularly great at virtual instruments, I just dabble in them occasionally when work demands it. My main line of work is working with live players in a concert environment.
> In any case, I can give it a try and maybe someone will find my insights useful, I'm more than happy to try and pass along everything I know for you guys, I just sincerely hope it's what you are looking for.
> The other issue is time, since I'm actually drowning in obligations, but I'll do my best.




One of the exciting (and difficult) things about learning composition in the internet era is cobbling together influences and ideas from people from such a wealth of different background. So I don't think you background being "less-that-optimal" is at all less that optimal in the broader picture of the pedagogical context.

(That said, the last course I taught myself involved quite a lot quantum field theory and exactly no music (though a lot of the mathematics is strikingly similar between the disciplines) so I'm certainly a less that optimal person to theorize music pedagogy.)


But look forward to your videos should you ever have time!


----------



## Sami

ism said:


> One of the exciting (and difficult) things about learning composition in the internet era is cobbling together influences and ideas from people from such a wealth of different background. So I don't think you background being "less-that-optimal" is at all less that optimal in the broader picture of the pedagogical context.
> 
> (That said, the last course I taught myself involved quite a lot quantum field theory and exactly no music (though a lot of the mathematics is strikingly similar between the disciplines) so I'm certainly a less that optimal person to theorize music pedagogy.)
> 
> 
> But look forward to your videos should you ever have time!


If you can grasp quantum field theory, music theory isn’t difficult. In fact we can talk about discrete energy levels (or discrete chord degrees) and probabilities of transition (or probability of resolution) and we'll soon find ourselves on common ground.


----------



## dzilizzi

AdamAlake said:


> Composing must be tough with this short attention span.


Not so much short attention span as unable to find that big of a free chunk of time. Also different teaching styles. It is nice to stop and try stuff as you learn it. 

And, though I am a bit ADHD, if I'm interested, it is not hard to pay attention.


----------



## robgb

Sami said:


> Counting the seconds until the vultures descend upon you to rend you asunder over daring to make humor


But you see, THAT was funny.


----------



## DavidY

ism said:


> (That said, the last course I taught myself involved quite a lot quantum field theory and exactly no music (though a lot of the mathematics is strikingly similar between the disciplines) so I'm certainly a less that optimal person to theorize music pedagogy.)


There's quite a mathematical approach to music in this paper (which I found when wandering from link to link on Youtube and Google). The author is mentioned by Alan Belkin who was himself mentioned earlier in this thread.
http://dmitri.mycpanel.princeton.edu/voiceleading.pdf
http://dmitri.mycpanel.princeton.edu/voiceleading.pdf
For instance (and apologies the symbols haven't pasted correctly):



> Musically, the chroma of a note is often more important than its octave. It is therefore useful to identify all pitches p and p + 12. The result is a circular quotient space (pitch-class space) that mathematicians call R/12Z (Fig. S3).



I have a nagging feeling that I have come across the idea of a quotient space before (when I was a student) and either didn't understand it at the time or have forgotten what it meant.

The author (Dmitri Tymoczko) also has a book (A Geometry of Music) which I'm guessing might be a little more accessible.


----------



## Sami

DavidY said:


> There's quite a mathematical approach to music in this paper (which I found when wandering from link to link on Youtube and Google). The author is mentioned by Alan Belkin who was himself mentioned earlier in this thread.
> http://dmitri.mycpanel.princeton.edu/voiceleading.pdf
> For instance (and apologies the symbols haven't pasted correctly):
> 
> 
> 
> I have a nagging feeling that I have come across the idea of a quotient space before (when I was a student) and either didn't understand it at the time or have forgotten what it meant.
> 
> The author (Dmitri Tymoczko) also has a book (A Geometry of Music) which I'm guessing might be a little more accessible.


 Isn't he the guy who did the tonal harmony book as well?


----------



## mc_deli

As an Adler owner with a creaking basket full of MV masterclasses I would like to remind that...

Today is the last day of Mike Verta's sale.


----------



## gamma-ut

Sami said:


> Isn't he the guy who did the tonal harmony book as well?



He has just the Geometry book out for the moment though I think he's working on one about tonal harmony.

I have the Geometry book and I think it's interesting but I think going down the road of finding mathematical truth in music is a fool's errand (though it's an area that's attracted very highly skilled fools - Kepler, Newton etc). For one, the studies focus on subclasses of western music. Second, we're dealing with an area where enculturation is vital to appreciation. Babies don't pop out of the womb screaming "I have a fever and the only cure is more Bach!"

Tymoczko has done sterling work finding geometric patterns in music - but are these patterns fundamental or the result of centuries of voiceleading practice that was initially governed by religious proscription of any sense of licentiousness from music and then allowing it back in bit by bit?


----------



## mverta

Go with the teacher who teaches the skill you want to have in the way you like to learn it. My classes are probably best for people who like straightforward, hands-on tools designed to give one control over their music so they can hopefully make a commercial living with it. I teach what I do; what I've done; what's kept the lights on for 30 years, and I try my best to teach it in a relaxed, conversational, but comprehensive way. Some people really like formal structure and tables and things like that, maybe because it gives the illusion that music can be learned that way - who knows. All I know is the idea of that makes me want to open a vein. I've learned the most from masters I've sat with having drinks trading ideas over a piano, so that's what I do. Believe me, if the critique my classes get is that they're 6+ solid hours of material per topic instead of handful of YouTube-sized infobites, I'd say mission accomplished.  In the end, if you're hitting your artistic, financial and life goals with books and university, stay on it; the last thing you need is to listen to me babble on for hours.

Have a Happy New Year everybody!

_Mike


----------



## Sami

mverta said:


> Go with the teacher who teaches the skill you want to have in the way you like to learn it. My classes are probably best for people who like straightforward, hands-on tools designed to give one control over their music so they can hopefully make a commercial living with it. I teach what I do; what I've done; what's kept the lights on for 30 years, and I try my best to teach it in a relaxed, conversational, but comprehensive way. Some people really like formal structure and tables and things like that, maybe because it gives the illusion that music can be learned that way - who knows. All I know is the idea of that makes me want to open a vein. I've learned the most from masters I've sat with having drinks trading ideas over a piano, so that's what I do. Believe me, if the critique my classes get is that they're 6+ solid hours of material per topic instead of handful of YouTube-sized infobites, I'd say mission accomplished.  In the end, if you're hitting your artistic, financial and life goals with books and university, stay on it; the last thing you need is to listen to me babble on for hours.
> 
> Have a Happy New Year everybody!
> 
> _Mike


I make my money with books an university yet I own all your classes except theory just because I like to listen to you babble for hours


----------



## Paul Grymaud

Today's lesson


----------



## DavidY

Paul Grymaud said:


> Today's lesson


I could never read music in what I was taught to call 'sol-fa' notation (I imagine the name varies for folk who actually use it). 
I'd not come across the 7th being 'si' before.


----------



## tehreal

mverta said:


> Go with the teacher who teaches the skill you want to have in the way you like to learn it. My classes are probably best for people who like straightforward, hands-on tools designed to give one control over their music so they can hopefully make a commercial living with it. I teach what I do; what I've done; what's kept the lights on for 30 years, and I try my best to teach it in a relaxed, conversational, but comprehensive way. Some people really like formal structure and tables and things like that, maybe because it gives the illusion that music can be learned that way - who knows. All I know is the idea of that makes me want to open a vein. I've learned the most from masters I've sat with having drinks trading ideas over a piano, so that's what I do. Believe me, if the critique my classes get is that they're 6+ solid hours of material per topic instead of handful of YouTube-sized infobites, I'd say mission accomplished.  In the end, if you're hitting your artistic, financial and life goals with books and university, stay on it; the last thing you need is to listen to me babble on for hours.
> 
> Have a Happy New Year everybody!
> 
> _Mike



Mike's classes: "to give one control over their music so they can hopefully make a commercial living with it"

More structured materials: "gives the illusion that music can be learned that way"

Real subtle, Mike 

Despite my illusory university experience I actually enjoy your videos. Always walk away with nuggets of real-world wisdom and your personality is fun and progressively dark (which I enjoy a lot).


----------



## mverta

tehreal said:


> Real subtle, Mike


 I guess that sounded more black and white than intended, but I think you can no more learn to be in control of music by reading books on it than you can learn to be good in bed by watching 1000 pornos. You gotta get in there, log some road miles, take your best guesses, try some stuff, fail, succeed. You figure out pretty quickly what generally works and what doesn't - if you tried to copy porn you'd be disappointed and suck, mostly. But after that, after some real-world experience it's useful to organize and quantify what you've learned. So I think academia is useful - for discussing on common ground; for having a shared language; for organizing and clarifying - like you would a closet. But you have to have a context first. I had already been working professionally the first time a teacher handed me a book with the "rule" about parallel 5ths. If I didn't already know this was bullshit, I guess I would've taken it at face-value, because... how would I know? But I knew. Road-miles. Again, go with what works; we're all trying to get to the same place and there are many roads to get there!


----------



## erica-grace

mverta said:


> ... than you can learn to be good in bed by watching 1000 pornos. You gotta get in there...



Ok, now THAT is subtlety!


----------



## Lassi Tani

I recently bought and watched the Counterpoint 1 by Mike Verta, and I enjoyed it a lot. It's not as structured as other courses on the subject might be, (they are live sessions), but I learned a lot from his course. Even though he doesn't have slides or such to support what he is saying, he brings out the most important rules (sometimes shouting). I was taking notes, while listening to him, and got many mind opening ideas from him. But! You should take notes and practise.

I watched the course in 5 parts, and I could easily come back to where I left.

He's courses are like a breath of fresh air, which nurtures your musical soul.


----------



## Akarin

ohernie said:


> Many thanks - glad I saw this thread. Are the non-sale prices displayed on Udemy real or do they have continuous sales?



Udemy is a bit dodgy in the way that you are never expected to pay the full price of a course. To check what I mean, launch a different browser in incognito mode (so it doesn't read your history/cookies) and check the price of a course on Udemy. Then check the price with your regular browser... and you'll most likely notice they are different.


----------



## Kinetic

Mike Verta's courses look interesting.

Has anyone ever thought about or used the Berklee Online programs (certificate or individual courses)? I know they are substantially more expensive, but thought it would be worth mentioning/asking.

Also would like to ask about the courses through Cinematic Composing.

Any info/experience with either of those?
Thanks.


----------



## PeterN

Just finished watching Mike Vertas Composition 1 & 2. These were great - they provide a sort of an intellectual base, for what is music composing. They touch the ground that is beyond the "cue", "epic" and "chord progression", (shall we call them) schools, which has polluted music and music composing. Recommended for anyone just starting out.

(That being said, sometimes it seems John Williams shadow is too heavily in the prescence of Verta. Nothing wrong with that, but, but...maybe thats to connect with the audience, as everyone knows Williams. But, but, ...when theres too much Williams theres too much Williams - anyway, anyway...maybe good for classes, ...maybe.)


----------



## WindcryMusic

PeterN said:


> Just finished watching Mike Vertas Composition 1 & 2. These were great ...



I agree completely. He managed to distill it down to a small number of guidelines which are deceptively simple, but which have led me to a largely demystified and hence more practical understanding of the fundamentals of composition, and one which has been easy to apply to my own efforts. Well worth my time.



PeterN said:


> (That being said, sometimes it seems John Williams shadow is too heavily in the prescence of Verta. Nothing wrong with that, but, but...maybe thats to connect with the audience, as everyone knows Williams. But, but, ...when theres too much Williams theres too much Williams - anyway, anyway...maybe good for classes, ...maybe.)



I recall that Mike has characterized it in several of his masterclasses as "horizontal vs. vertical development", e.g., the old school approach of which Williams was the master vs. the new school approach of which Zimmer is the master, and has said that if you only want to compose using the wholly vertical style of development that is currently in fashion (and which I also enjoy, BTW ... some of Zimmer's cues are amongst my favorites in the cinematic genre), you should probably skip Mike's classes as not being applicable.

I also happen to personally believe that everyone would benefit from learning more about horizontal (which encompasses harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic) development, so no one should skip Mike's classes.


----------



## jononotbono

So, has anyone looked at Norman Ludwin's books and courses? The guy seems to be hugely reputable in the Film world and offers many things including private tuition.


----------



## synergy543

jononotbono said:


> So, has anyone looked at Norman Ludwin's books and courses? The guy seems to be hugely reputable in the Film world and offers many things including private tuition.


Luke, what's very interesting to me about Norman's books are the notated score examples. He points out all sorts of interesting points within a score to listen for. I've found this very useful. Aside from that, he focuses on many compositional tools with specific examples such as development, use of hexacords, and both orchestral and film score examples. Great learning resources if you put in the time to study them.


----------



## jononotbono

synergy543 said:


> Luke, what's very interesting to me about Norman's books are the notated score examples. He points out all sorts of interesting points within a score to listen for. I've found this very useful. Aside from that, he focuses on many compositional tools with specific examples such as development, use of hexacords, and both orchestral and film score examples. Great learning resources if you put in the time to study them.



Thanks man. I'm very interested. I feel like I need to reset everything I've learned so far and start from the beginning with basics in Composition, understand Harmony, modulation, all of it. Then progress into Orchestration and I'm thinking some private tuition may be the way to go for me at this point in my life. Definitely up for seeing how that goes. Has anyone here had private tuition from Norman?


----------



## ism

jononotbono said:


> So, has anyone looked at Norman Ludwin's books and courses? The guy seems to be hugely reputable in the Film world and offers many things including private tuition.




Lots of good material, entirely worth picking up. Developing Variation is probably my favourite -lots of stuff you can find elsewhere, but very clearly presented, very focused, and with audio examples.


In general I'd say they're really not books - they're powerpoint from his seminars. So they're no substitute for more pedagogically substantive texts - Alain Belkin's book, for instance, would be a great companion. But they do what the do extremely well.

Again, the wealth of scores, analysis and audio is really key to how these books work.


----------



## davidson

ism said:


> Lots of good material, entirely worth picking up. Developing Variation is probably my favourite -lots of stuff you can find elsewhere, but very clearly presented, very focused, and with audio examples.
> 
> 
> In general I'd say they're really not books - they're powerpoint from his seminars. So they're no substitute for more pedagogically substantive texts - Alain Belkin's book, for instance, would be a great companion. But they do what the do extremely well.
> 
> Again, the wealth of scores, analysis and audio is really key to how these books work.



Are the audio examples clickable directly from the pdf versions of the books?


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## ism

davidson said:


> Are the audio examples clickable directly from the pdf versions of the books?


They're accompanying mp3 downloads. I just import them into iTunes and they're easy enough to access.


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## davidson

ism said:


> They're accompanying mp3 downloads. I just import them into iTunes and they're easy enough to access.



Ok, thanks.


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## Jim Martin

jononotbono said:


> So, has anyone looked at Norman Ludwin's books and courses? The guy seems to be hugely reputable in the Film world and offers many things including private tuition.



I just ordered a couple of his books from amazon and also some ebook versions. I actually think the PDF versions are the way to go because I no longer have DVD players on my PCs to get at the audio files 

Has anyone bought his videos?


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## jononotbono

I just bought Norman's Modern Harmony e-Book just to try it out before I go any further on this quest.


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## RAdkins

@mverta which masterclasses would you recommend to begin with? It would be great if you had a recommended viewing order for newbies


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## RAdkins

Here is another thread talking about the best order.

Thread 'Where to start with Mike Verta's Masterclasses?'
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/where-to-start-with-mike-vertas-masterclasses.68256/


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## tehreal

RAdkins said:


> @mverta which masterclasses would you recommend to begin with? It would be great if you had a recommended viewing order for newbies



Would definitely avoid these courses if you're looking for structured learning. Hour+ long vids but really only a small percentage contain anything useful (and barely useful unfortunately).

Do a little more research on good books. Norman Ludwin's "Developing Variations" and "Composer's Handbook" are good (I'd avoid his bundle offerings and just go for the standalone books). But beyond that, 90% of your time should involve listening and analyzing recordings and scores, asking questions and of course composing every day.


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## rmak

RAdkins said:


> @mverta which masterclasses would you recommend to begin with? It would be great if you had a recommended viewing order for newbies


I bought two of the courses, and I have a hard time following. Just FYI. He takes questions from people like a live stream as he teaches the topic, and he goes off topic and tangents quite often. Some of the viewers like it, but it doesn't get to the topics very succinctly. So be prepared.

I just started scoreclub, and so far, things are pretty good. We will see.


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## RAdkins

thank you for the extra information. There is a wealth of info on this forum, I have been lurking for years.

I bought “How To Write Music” from thinkspace and the “*The Orchestral Production Bundle*“ from groove3. That will keep me busy for awhile.


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## Leo Brennauer

I think @mverta s classes are great supplemental courses. Especially if you are already into music, they really take you places. They open up new ways of thinking, simplifying and understanding music from a different standpoint. I'm currently studying Composition for Film, Theatre and Media at the University of Zurich and take his courses almost every day as a supplement.

One of the things I appreciate the most about them; mike is authentic and honest - all times.

And yes, maybe they are a little long, but you should just have the right setting, and you're good to go: Open up a glass of bourbon (or water, if you're nonalcoholic), chill down at the couch, and enjoy. Don't expect them to be "classes" like you would go to in school - then they'll become fun! I'm enjoying, consuming and most importantly transcribing music differently since I started watching his videos.

-LB


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