# No new iMac needed - let's buy a slave



## kimarnesen (Sep 10, 2017)

So at first I wanted to get a new iMac, but as a noob I didn't even know about the possibility of getting a slave PC to offload my iMac for running libraries such as Spitfire, 8dio, CSS and eventually Vienna instruments. So I'm getting Vienna Ensemble Pro to begin a very new way of working.

My plan for the slave is as following, and would be interested to hear your thoughts: 

Processor: AMD Ryzen 7 1700X, 8-core
RAM: HyperX Fury DDR4 2400MHz 32GB
Samsung PM961 SSD 256GB
Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5'' HDD SATA 6.0Gb/s, 7200RPM
Samsung 850 EVO 1TB 2.5" SSD


Price: $2900. I could go a bit higher, but this is ideal.


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## kimarnesen (Sep 10, 2017)

My alternative would be Intel Core i7-7820X Prosessor Socket-2066, 8-Core i guess. Maybe that's better?


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## Spip (Sep 10, 2017)

32G of RAM for a slave seems strange to me. I would choose a cheaper CPU and more RAM. 

Maybe a CPU/motherboard bundle that doesn't need a video card, would be even better, for a slave.


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## rgames (Sep 10, 2017)

Definitely go with 64 GB - get whatever is cheapest (RAM is really pricey these days) at 2400 MHz.

I'd also go with Intel - the i7 6700k and, presumably, its replacement the 7700k are killer for slaves. Overclock to 4.4+ GHz.

No video card necessary.

450 W power supply is more than enough.

Any $150 motherboard is as good as any other these days.

Ditch the HDD and go with all SSDs (but no need for NVMe on slaves).

I built two basically at that spec a little over a year ago and they're rock solid and generate 3000+ voices and < 6 ms latency. Total was under $1500 each but RAM prices might put you a bit over right now.

rgames


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## kimarnesen (Sep 10, 2017)

Thanks,

how much RAM do you use with those 3000+ voices?


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## FriFlo (Sep 11, 2017)

mrarnesen said:


> Thanks,
> 
> how much RAM do you use with those 3000+ voices?


Voices are not RAM related. RAM (and Kontakts Buffer Settings) just determines the amount of samples that can be loaded. This is pretty straight forward. The only thing to consider is the read speed of your HDs/SSDs, as you are able to set the buffer settings lower with faster read speed. Hence, the combination of read speed on your sample discs and the amount of RAM determines the samples that can be loaded.
Not so straight forward on the other hand is the numbers of voices which can be played simultaneously, as there are many factors, like CPU speed, numbers of cores, asio performance and real time latency. Richard did some nice videos on that topic you can find on YouTube. There, you will see that more cores or a more expensive CPU does not necessarily improve the voice count. In some cases it is also related to the efficiency of Kontakt scripts by the libraries of your choice. From what I have seen and experienced, I would only go with a system that has worked well in that regard for someone else. There is just to much potential of wasting your money on a system that underperformes. Richard did some great research on the topic, so - especially if you are not a computer nerd - you should listen to his advice.


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## kimarnesen (Sep 11, 2017)

Thank you, and that is indeed helpful videos by Richard.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 13, 2017)

What are your current iMac specs?


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## Soundhound (Sep 13, 2017)

Could anyone recommend an off the shelf, press 'buy' on the website and it shows up at your door in a few days solution? I'm starting to wonder if a pc slave isn't indeed the way forward. thanks! Something that can handle 64 gigs of ram, preferably 128 (I can add the ram myself) and dustbin 12 core level performance etc. 

Thanks!


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## jononotbono (Sep 13, 2017)

rgames said:


> Definitely go with 64 GB



Richard, I'm considering building a second slave and I'm just wondering why you recommend 64gb RAM machines? Surely if you build a machine with enough CPU cores having more than 64gb of RAM will be fine? Is there some kind of Bottle neck I need to know about? I am wondering why someone like JXL has machines with 192gb of RAM in them if you recommend no more than 64gb? Is it a bang for buck kind of thing?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 13, 2017)

What's the big hype over having all this Ram? I understand that some like to load up their templates, but with the OP's libraries, for example, is it really necessary? I have a slave with a 200+ track templates, and they barely scratch 32GB...I'm loading the stuff that I would probably have use for (including a ton of EW Hollywood stuff). It's also a good practice to create several templates, each with the stuff that you will most likely use with a certain scenario/project. JXL has thousands of instruments loaded into his templates, and a whole dedicated server room (and onsite techs).

@Soundhound you are on PC already I assume? There must be something "off the shelf" out there, I have seen a few, but they always skimp out on critical components like the power supply. I'd be curious to see if you find anything, as I've wondered the same thing.


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## jononotbono (Sep 13, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> What's the big hype over having all this Ram?



I wasn't aware off any Hype. VIs use RAM and I need more RAM.


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## kimarnesen (Sep 13, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> What are your current iMac specs?



Not much to brag about:

16GB ram, 2,8 Ghz Intel COre i7 and 2 TB SATA-disk.

But I'm gonna upgrade it to 32GB ram and an SSD for the OS.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 13, 2017)

Yeah, I don't mean "hype", I just wonder how many "think" they need 128GB Ram for example. Maybe I'm dead wrong, but it's more than the average composer will ever utilize. I realize many do (like Luke), but if you're already getting by well enough with 16 or 32GB, you probably don't need it. Plus, Ram is fartin' expensive right now.

mrarnesen, just a thought, but if you upgraded the iMac Ram first and tried running your libs from an external SSD, you may find that's all you needed.


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## Soundhound (Sep 13, 2017)

No I'm on Mac, all Mac all the time. But I'm starting to wonder about having the front end (DAW etc) be Mac and have all libraries/instruments served up by a monster PC. I'd rather have everything in one box and not have to deal with VEP, but the new imac/Mac Pros look like they'll set you back the equivalent of a used Tesla. 

I'll let you know if I find anything for sure. 



Wolfie2112 said:


> @Soundhound you are on PC already I assume? There must be something "off the shelf" out there, I have seen a few, but they always skimp out on critical components like the power supply. I'd be curious to see if you find anything, as I've wondered the same thing.


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## kimarnesen (Sep 13, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Yeah, I don't mean "hype", I just wonder how many "think" they need 128GB Ram for example. Maybe I'm dead wrong, but it's more than the average composer will ever utilize. I realize many do (like Luke), but if you're already getting by well enough with 16 or 32GB, you probably don't need it. Plus, Ram is fartin' expensive right now.
> 
> mrarnesen, just a thought, but if you upgraded the iMac Ram first and tried running your libs from an external SSD, you may find that's all you needed.



Maybe for a while, but I'm investing for the future, and will need more power as things proceed.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 13, 2017)

Soundhound said:


> I'd rather have everything in one box and not have to deal with VEP, but the new imac/Mac Pros look like they'll set you back the equivalent of a used Tesla.
> 
> I'll let you know if I find anything for sure.



Ha ha!! That is so true. I'm really hoping the new Mac Pro's are little cheaper than the used Tesla (if they ever surface).


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## Soundhound (Sep 13, 2017)

Maybe a Tesla with vinyl interior instead of leather...


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## chimuelo (Sep 13, 2017)

Soundhound said:


> Could anyone recommend an off the shelf, press 'buy' on the website and it shows up at your door in a few days solution? I'm starting to wonder if a pc slave isn't indeed the way forward. thanks! Something that can handle 64 gigs of ram, preferably 128 (I can add the ram myself) and dustbin 12 core level performance etc.
> 
> Thanks!



SHound, I built 3 x Slaves recently and could give you a list of parts. Take them to a local Tech shop and that runs another 120-160 USD.
They install everything and it's almost fool proof to build anymore.

i7-7700k CPU w/ Samsung 850 EVO x 2 (1TB), 64GBs DDR4 for 1600 bucks.
All top shelf parts except for RAM. I don't waste money on RAM that glows in the dark or changes colors like a Christmas Tree.


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## Soundhound (Sep 13, 2017)

Thanks man, appreciate it! For heavy sample library, some synth use do you think an i7 slave could do it all? I don't have a gigantic template, (often no template at all), but I often wind up with a lot of tracks of spitfire, orchestral tools, cinesamples, and omni, toontrack etc etc. 

If right in Logic it doesn't take much to make my iMac (2012 i7 3.4ghz) cough up blood. In VEP it can take way more. But I'd love to have a ton of headroom and just not have to think about it for a change, ya know? So I've been wondering about the new 12, 18 core chips in a pc slave? What thinkest thou?



chimuelo said:


> SHound, I built 3 x Slaves recently and could give you a list of parts. Take them to a local Tech shop and that runs another 120-160 USD.
> They install everything and it's almost fool proof to build anymore.
> 
> i7-7700k CPU w/ Samsung 850 EVO x 2 (1TB), 64GBs DDR4 for 1600 bucks.
> All top shelf parts except for RAM. I don't waste money on RAM that glows in the dark or changes colors like a Christmas Tree.


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## rgames (Sep 13, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Richard, I'm considering building a second slave and I'm just wondering why you recommend 64gb RAM machines? Surely if you build a machine with enough CPU cores having more than 64gb of RAM will be fine? Is there some kind of Bottle neck I need to know about? I am wondering why someone like JXL has machines with 192gb of RAM in them if you recommend no more than 64gb? Is it a bang for buck kind of thing?


More than 64 GB won't hurt anything but I'm not sure you can make use of all that RAM, so why spend money on it? Presumably if you're loading up that much RAM with samples then you have dense orchestrations / multi mic positions that generate high voice counts that likely exceed what any one machine can deliver. Depending on the library you probably can't get more than 1500 - 3000 voices from any single machine, a number that is independent of RAM.

If you just like to have samples sitting in RAM so you can marvel at them then yeah, no worries 

I have three 64 GB slaves with 20-40 GB worth of samples loaded in each. I could replace them with a single 128 GB machine but I'd exceed the voice count capabilty of that one machine. I need three slaves not because of RAM but because of voice counts. My experience is that's the limiting factor for most VI composers.

rgames


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## chimuelo (Sep 13, 2017)

RGames always provides the details most appreciated that aren't from benchmarks, which have their specific uses, but real world examples using specific apps for music.

BTW I built 3 x Slaves that follows your train of thought on fast lean Quads.
I can play an incredible amount of tracks without bouncing and with a 4 Port KVM Switcher/QWERTY.




Soundhound said:


> Thanks man, appreciate it! For heavy sample library, some synth use do you think an i7 slave could do it all? I don't have a gigantic template, (often no template at all), but I often wind up with a lot of tracks of spitfire, orchestral tools, cinesamples, and omni, toontrack etc etc.
> 
> If right in Logic it doesn't take much to make my iMac (2012 i7 3.4ghz) cough up blood. In VEP it can take way more. But I'd love to have a ton of headroom and just not have to think about it for a change, ya know? So I've been wondering about the new 12, 18 core chips in a pc slave? What thinkest thou?



I prefer quads for Slaves.
The more the better.
Just finished my 3rd 1U Slave with Server quality older NOS/NIB Boards from ASRock.
I would buy 1 on the cheap, and add more as you need.
A 64GB Slave can do a lot of work.


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## jononotbono (Sep 14, 2017)

rgames said:


> More than 64 GB won't hurt anything but I'm not sure you can make use of all that RAM, so why spend money on it? Presumably if you're loading up that much RAM with samples then you have dense orchestrations / multi mic positions that generate high voice counts that likely exceed what any one machine can deliver. Depending on the library you probably can't get more than 1500 - 3000 voices from any single machine, a number that is independent of RAM.



Ok thanks for the detailed answer. I really like your YouTube Videos so understand you know what you are talking about but I still have questions about all of this. What can you do to increase the capability of a computer to deliver higher Voice Counts? I'm guessing more CPU Cores/faster CPU cores. And therefore if you put more CPU cores into your system you will increase the capacity of more RAM, which will then in turn lead to using a Higher Voice count because you are using more VIs loaded into said extra RAM?

I like the idea of having Quad machines and 64gb of RAM but I have a PC slave that has an i7 2600k (Quadcore) but can only support 32gb of RAM. I'm just wondering how a Quadcore can support 64gb? I'm also concerned about my electricity bill and heat because my Lab is already as hot as dirty Strip Club.



rgames said:


> If you just like to have samples sitting in RAM so you can marvel at them then yeah, no worries



Haha! Well, I don't sit there marvelling at them but having so much stuff ready to play for any circumstance is quite valuable to me. A couple of weeks a go I wrote 2 fully finished and produced Library tracks, a 10 minute short, and some Sound Design stuff for a feature film in 4 days. I could never have done that without a template and a lot of things ready to go and routed. It's more about efficiency and speed of access to meet deadlines. None of my music has got dense orchestrations (I'll come back to this conversation in 10 years and see where I'm at with that) utilising hundreds of live midi tracks but that, for me at least, is not the point in a template as I'm not some kind of Classical Composer. Just an aspiring media composer living in a world of Sound Design with occasional Orchestration flirting (something I hope over time to learn much more about).

I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions man.


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