# A(nother?) LASS/HS legato comparison



## bwherry (May 31, 2011)

Hi guys,

I saw Kung Fu Panda 2 over the weekend (_loved_ it!) and was inspired to do a LA Scoring Strings/Hollywood Strings (Diamond) legato full section comparison using one of the themes from Kung Fu Panda. Two SoundCloud links to downloadable MP3 files follow, but first a bit of information. Each clip was made using exactly five instruments (on exactly five different MIDI tracks): legato full sections of violins 1, violins 2, violas, celli, and basses. For LASS each instrument was of the "full leg L", 24-bit variety. For HS each instrument was a "leg slur LT 6" except for the basses, which was a "leg slur LT 3" (CC11 controls dynamics in the basses' "leg slur LT 7" patch, so if I had used that one I wouldn't have been able to keep identical MIDI information for both sample sets). HS instruments were using the default, "main" mics. Release triggers turned *off* for all instruments (both LASS and HS) but no other modifications to any the instruments were made (no EQ changes, nothing - just loaded directly from the lib). All instrument patches are from the latest versions available, so LASS 1.5 and HS 1.0.7 (w/ PLAY 2.1.2). LASS instruments were loaded in a standalone instance of Kontakt 4. HS instruments were loaded in a standalone instance of PLAY. Once a section starts playing all notes are connected (slightly overlapping) to make sure legato transitions are used. The only controller data used is CC1 (mod wheel) and it's all smooth ramps - there are no "jumps" in CC1. Most note velocities are set to 0 (slow attack for LASS) except for a few, for which I wanted more immediate attacks. MIDI data feeding samples is identical for LASS and HS. Oh, stereo strings is being sent to an external reverb (TL Space) for both, in the same amount. Without further ado, the clips:

Legato Panda - LA Scoring Strings (v01):
http://soundcloud.com/bwherry/legato-panda-lass-v01

Legato Panda - Hollywood Strings (v01):
http://soundcloud.com/bwherry/legato-panda-hs-v01

Additional Notes: This is not meant to be a transcription of any specific cue, and the harmonies aren't correct - I was just going from memory. Additionally, I did the initial note/controller input using LASS so understandably the balances of the sections in the LASS clip are better than those in the HS one. I obviously wouldn't deliver either of these to a client, due to the glaring problems, but I wanted to leave them "raw and unpolished" for a hopefully more illuminating out-of-the-box demo/comparison.

My observations:

LA Scoring Strings:
- Overall is more "gritty" and "thicker" sounding.
- The "second note level drop" problem can be heard throughout, most noticeably on the cello at medium velocities. Full description of this problem here: http://www.audiobro.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=380 This problem has prevented me from using LASS's legato patches for anything but louder parts ever since it came out. :( 
- Other than that ^^^^ the legato transitions are pretty natural sounding.
- No real tuning problems that I can hear.

Hollywood Strings:
- Overall is more "smooth" and "focused" sounding.
- The legato transitions are a bit more noticeable, especially in some of the quarter notes in the celli. Is this closer to how a real string section would sound, playing slur legato? Not sure.
- A few not-so-great-tuning moments, the celli flatness at around 0:12 being the most noticeable.
- Big problem at 0:27/0:28 - violins 1 and celli seem to abruptly disappear completely, then "pop" back on the next note. There's a big interval being played there (down an octave plus a third, IIRC) so I suspect there was no legato transition recorded/available for that note combination. I suspect LASS also doesn't have a legato transition recorded for "more than an octave" but at least it makes some appropriate compromise that sounds okay, whereas HS sends up a red flag.

I hope some of you find this interesting. If/when the different issues I mentioned get fixed, I'll post updates... I'll make a couple of tweaks to the harmonies and provide a MIDI file for y'all to check out. If there's any detail I left out, please ask and I'll do my best to elaborate/clarify. I'm realizing now that I should have posted "dry" versions of both as well -- oops! I will later. I should probably also make separate, "massage all the controller data as much as needed to get it to sound good" versions as well... Stay tuned.

Brian


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## Ed (May 31, 2011)

Interesting test... I liked HS a lot more... but I don't think you did LASS justice (or HS justice either). Actually somethings sounds odd in both these, for example I hear random jumps and notes cutting off for a start. You also said you used the programming of LASS with HS, not a great way to seriously test stuff but even so LASS sounds worse to me both in programming and balancing. Not sure what you did to cause any of these problems.

Note that I don't have either library.


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## José Herring (May 31, 2011)

I love the piece. I remember the first time I heard it in the theater and thought the melody was just beautiful. 

LASS is rocking the cello line. The violins are also soaring.

HS as the more full sound and your ear kind of says, "oh, yes that's what strings sound like". on the other hand, the violins want to take you to heaven only to be plunged into the depths of hell because it sounds like a broken recording. Are the legatos a user error or is Play just dropping samples in the transitions? Specifically around :26.


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## bwherry (May 31, 2011)

Ed @ Tue May 31 said:


> Interesting test... I liked HS a lot more... but I don't think you did LASS justice (or HS justice either).



I wasn't trying to do either one of them "justice" per se. I was trying to illustrate the out-of-the-box performance of each.



> Actually somethings sounds odd in both these, for example I hear random jumps and notes cutting off for a start.



Yup, not so nice, is it? Follow the link to the Audiobro forums in my original post - lots more information about that specific LASS problem (the second note level drop).



> You also said you used the programming of LASS with HS, not a great way to seriously test stuff but even so LASS sounds worse to me both in programming and balancing.



Each has their merits (to my ears). Correct, I didn't massage the controller data specific to each set of samples as I was curious about a very simple direct swap from one sample lib to the other. As I initially stated, this isn't the best way to produce great results - but it did surely highlight some shortcomings. I'll do another round of examples that will involve fine-tuning all the controller data specific to each, to produce the best possible sound from each (or as good as I can do, anyway).



> Not sure what you did to cause any of these problems.



I loaded the patches from the library and played them. :wink:

In all seriousness, both of these libraries are awesome in many ways, but neither is perfect.

Brian


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## Joe S (May 31, 2011)

There is a big jump in the melody that sounds weird in both versions. Not sure why, but neither libraries recording legato more than one octave range, I think. The Hollywood Strings version has some notes cutting out, due to performance issues. Other than that the LASS version just sounds really bumpy and out of time. I would rework the LASS version, because it sounds bad compared to the Hollywood S. version. The Hollywood Strings version would be good if you can get it to playback without cutting off notes in the middle.


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## williemyers (May 31, 2011)

Ed @ Tue May 31 said:


> .. I don't think you did LASS justice (or HS justice either).
> Note that I don't have either library.


Ed, re: your thought that he did neither library justice...just wondering how - not having either library - you would know?


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## RiffWraith (May 31, 2011)

You know what this shows? This shows that no matter what the lib, and no matter the quality of the recording, there needs to be a considerable amount of work done to get anywhere near realism. Both have very good timbre, and had I been hearing both for the first time here, would say that both have an enormous amount of potential to sound really good.

Cheers.


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## JohnG (May 31, 2011)

I have both libraries. I don't get these gaps playing the same lines in HS using the Leg Slur LT 6 Ni patch.

While I appreciate the appeal "off the shelf" demos, I think that boxing oneself in with the same midi data for both libraries gives listeners misleading information. 

LASS and HS each require some time and effort to learn. It took me a month or two before I began to get the feel of LASS, though once one has it, the feel is very good. Same with HS -- you have to get used to zeroing in on the sweet spots of the controllers to draw out the sound you want.

Listeners risk drawing all kinds of false inferences from these examples, which, while offered nobly and in the spirit of inquiry, show more about the limitations of midi programming than about the performance of either library.

It's a nice piece of music though, and I do honestly appreciate the effort of trying to be helpful to other users. Perhaps a more balanced test might be to spend the same amount of time on two different mockups? I know that may sound artificial, but ignoring the differences in programming is also a stretch.

Also, did you turn off the built-in EQ of the LASS library? Curious.


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## bwherry (May 31, 2011)

Thanks for the reply, John. I will create specialized versions for each library - hopefully by tomorrow. Same notes, but controller data custom tuned to each lib. BTW, have you experienced the LASS "second note level drop" problem? As described here: http://www.audiobro.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=380 (and heard throughout the LASS version of this example as the LAAaaaa DAAaaaaa in the softer bits of the cello line). I haven't found a fix or workaround for that yet, other than "use the sustain patches for those softer passages" - which I very well may have to do to get the LASS version of this example to sound acceptable (as I've had to do since I started using LASS). I didn't turn on or off any EQ stuff in any instruments in either library. Like I said, I just loaded the patches from the respective libraries and turned off the release triggers. No other modifications.

Brian


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## Marius Masalar (May 31, 2011)

+1 to everything John said.

I mentioned this the last time such a comparison turned up, but just to clarify my issue with it: it's my opinion that sample libraries are instruments in and of themselves — beyond simple replications of the "real" version — and that MIDI programming is the musicianship that brings them to life. So if you're trying to "play" two different instruments the exact same way, you're not really highlighting the key advantages/disadvantages as far as I'm concerned.

Using the same MIDI for two sample libraries is an odd idea and is inherently biased toward the library that the MIDI was generated with initially. They're programmed differently, they have different timbres, difference response characteristics...I mean isn't that why we buy different libraries for the same instruments to begin with?

I really appreciate the effort and the intent, but I think John's concept for an out-of-the-box comparison is very wise. It's less scientifically rigorous, sure, but makes a lot more practical sense: assuming new user skill with both libraries, how good can one get each to sound in, say, half an hour of work? Then we could say things like "HS has better tone, but takes significantly longer to tweak to perfection in terms of performance", or "working with multiple articulations is noticeably simpler with LASS because of the tricks one can play via Kontakt", etc etc.

This stuff's all subjective anyway so to me the value is in comparing them in real-world scenarios rather than faux-scientific tests.

Thank you though, for taking the time. I was a very early adopter of LASS and haven't got HS so it's nice to see how the two tackle the same arrangement.


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## gsilbers (May 31, 2011)

bwherry @ Tue May 31 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I saw Kung Fu Panda 2 over the weekend (_loved_ it!) and was inspired to do a LA Scoring Strings/Hollywood Strings (Diamond) legato full section comparison using one of the themes from Kung Fu Panda. Two SoundCloud links to downloadable MP3 files follow, but first a bit of information. Each clip was made using exactly five instruments (on exactly five different MIDI tracks): legato full sections of violins 1, violins 2, violas, celli, and basses. For LASS each instrument was of the "full leg L", 24-bit variety. For HS each instrument was a "leg slur LT 6" except for the basses, which was a "leg slur LT 3" (CC11 controls dynamics in the basses' "leg slur LT 7" patch, so if I had used that one I wouldn't have been able to keep identical MIDI information for both sample sets). HS instruments were using the default, "main" mics. Release triggers turned *off* for all instruments (both LASS and HS) but no other modifications to any the instruments were made (no EQ changes, nothing - just loaded directly from the lib). All instrument patches are from the latest versions available, so LASS 1.5 and HS 1.0.7 (w/ PLAY 2.1.2). LASS instruments were loaded in a standalone instance of Kontakt 4. HS instruments were loaded in a standalone instance of PLAY. Once a section starts playing all notes are connected (slightly overlapping) to make sure legato transitions are used. The only controller data used is CC1 (mod wheel) and it's all smooth ramps - there are no "jumps" in CC1. Most note velocities are set to 0 (slow attack for LASS) except for a few, for which I wanted more immediate attacks. MIDI data feeding samples is identical for LASS and HS. Oh, stereo strings is being sent to an external reverb (TL Space) for both, in the same amount. Without further ado, the clips:
> 
> ...


'


dude!! !thats one of my favorites cues ever!!!! along with time from inception. 
both from hans zimmer ... (or whoever REALLY wrote maybe was one of the interns)  

anyways... 

the mockup kinda sounds sucky... better than i would do though  
im sure others will give u more details about it. 

but it gave me the idea of both libraries. hollywood strings definitely has more "emotion" and resembles more the real version. 
some of the previous post do have a point of working out the best of each library to get a better sound so maybe with some tweaking LASS could sound better. 

for me its play and the bad programming. had a chance to try out the terapack and no way in hell ill buy HS with the crappy programming and tunning. legato transitions, velocity curves. im not that good so the better the library the better i can hide and with so many issues in the little time i tried it.. ill pass for now. 
ill wait to see if more forum posts say the programming is better and that play is better,.

HS is now part of the "used car salesman" marketing that EW pulls of every few month or so, leaving HS gold at about $300 if u buy something else. which i might. 
still waiting on a better play and better HS programing tweaking. 

PD: oh i see now. u wrote that u are going from memory on that cue. i thought it was an exact mockup of the original.


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## JohnG (May 31, 2011)

Hi Brian,

I guess here's my thought; it's fair enough to ask "how does a rank newbie with a few hours' experience operate a $1000-plus string package?" But, if you'll pardon me, I think it's the wrong question. 

Orchestral libraries have gotten more complicated. Accordingly, the only thing worse than wasting money on a library whose sound we hate after one hour is wasting six months with a library that, even with a degree of mastery, just doesn't cut it.

Accordingly, the most valuable comparison, in my view, is how each library sounds after spending a reasonable amount of time -- say two to four hours? -- on about a minute of music. But the proviso is that the user be fairly expert with each library so that the best that is there can be shown.

We spend months, even years with these libraries. How they sound in the first two hours is really pretty irrelevant. It's how they sound after the first two _months_ that I think helps one make an informed choice.

I do think that both libraries are very good. LASS has improved mightily since its very first incarnation. HS also has improved since v1.0 and further improvements have been announced that will be very welcome.

Thank you for offering to have another bash at this -- it's a lovely piece of music at least, but it's generous of you to do it in any event.

One note -- Using my own LASS setup here, I don't actually hear the problem alluded to in the (now fairly old) LASS audiobro thread. Either it has been fixed by an update since that time or it's extremely subtle, which I'm guessing from what you're saying it's not.

(Note: I recently received a free copy of QL Spaces from East West)


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## David Story (May 31, 2011)

Time and effort don't guarantee mastery of an instrument. Out of the box shows how difficult the instrument is to play. That's priceless information, and can be generalized to many potential users.


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## bwherry (May 31, 2011)

John, I don't think "How does a rank newbie with a few hours' experience operate a $1000-plus string package?" was quite the question I was looking to answer. More like "How many hoops does an experienced sample jockey need to jump through in order to make a $1000-plus string library sound acceptable?" To use a different metaphor, I set out to illustrate a simple example of driving through the countryside in two different sports cars, and found that in one you can't use the heater and the CD player at the same time, and for the other if you shift into third gear below 25mph the windshield will shatter. So it was more of a precautionary tale for potential buyers (especially less experienced users) about the potential difficulties in making these expensive string libraries sound as good as they've heard them sound in the demos. I think that has some value.

The thing is, I've had LASS long enough to know the problems I'm going to hit ahead of time, so I work around them (use the sustains here, then the legato here, make sure to double this with Symphobia, etc.) in order to get things to sound okay. But I specifically chose to NOT do that with this example, again to set expectations for new users (and for a better comparison to before-you-know-all-the-tricks with HS).

Oh, John - you really can't hear the second note level drop problem either in the LASS example in my first post in this thread or in the thread on the audiobro forum?

Brian


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## Ashermusic (May 31, 2011)

It is a simple equation: the more power, control and versatility a library gives you, the longer it takes to learn to use it effectively. 

So demonstrating either without "all the tricks" is like filming a test drive of a Ferrari with a driver who does not know how to shift. It illustrates nothing useful IMHO.


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## Lex (Jun 1, 2011)

Here's LASS cello section only. First "out of the box" then exact same stem going trough hall processing.

http://www.aleksandardimitrijevic.com/VI/PANDA1.mp3 (www.aleksandardimitrijevic.com/VI/PANDA1.mp3)

alex


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## JohnG (Jun 1, 2011)

bwherry @ 31st May 2011 said:


> Oh, John - you really can't hear the second note level drop problem either in the LASS example in my first post in this thread or in the thread on the audiobro forum?
> 
> Brian



I tried to replicate it with my rig and couldn't. I definitely heard the problems in your example. These kinds of "it works here, not there" puzzles just baffle me!


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## JohnG (Jun 1, 2011)

bwherry @ 31st May 2011 said:


> for a better comparison to before-you-know-all-the-tricks with HS



Hi Brian,

I re-read my post and I should not have said "newbie." Apologies; I didn't even mean it! What I should have written was that it's not quite a direct comparison if you know some / a lot of the LASS tricks but few / none of those with HS.

I could barely make LASS work for the first month; HS I have found equally time-consuming to troll through the patches.

So that's what I meant and did not mean to imply that you are a newbie, which I now realise I sort of did.

I think again it's best to allocate a certain amount of time to each example. Maybe if you are an expert in LASS it would even be fair to allocate some time getting to know HS first?


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## robh (Jun 1, 2011)

JohnG @ Wed Jun 01 said:


> bwherry @ 31st May 2011 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, John - you really can't hear the second note level drop problem either in the LASS example in my first post in this thread or in the thread on the audiobro forum?
> ...


I just tried too. In my test, I can subtly hear what Brian is referring to, but somehow his version seems exaggerated. 

Playing around with the legato tweak feature helped (took me about ten seconds at the most). Combining the divisi A, B, C, and FC (as opposed to using full section patches) helped even more.

UPDATE: Brian, I may have figured out what you are coming up against - I was able to replicate your example. For legato to properly work, the notes _must overlap_*. It sounds like some of your notes do not, and with a velocity of zero, you definitely are going to get the drop in volume effect.

* if you were looking at a piano roll view, the notes should look something like the legato.jpg below.

If your piano roll looked something like the non legato.jpg picture, you won't trigger the legato in LASS

Rob


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 1, 2011)

Brian, would you be willing to post the midi file so that others can load it up and see if it gives the same results?

And is this a Zimmer cue? On scores with multiple composers I'm not sure how people know which cues were written by which composer.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 1, 2011)

i second the request for the midi files. i am pretty sure i could make a much better fist of the LASS version (and the HS for that matter). i'd be willing to have a go at LASS version if someone else wants to do the HS. actually it's not a bad choice to match up on because of the legato lines in the violins and cellos.

my feeling is that HS ought to 'win' this one. in terms of character of sound i think HS is a better match. maybe that's just me making my excuses ahead of time... 

wrt the composer, my feeling is this sounds like a john powell effort....


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## bwherry (Jun 1, 2011)

Hey guys,

Good discussion. First off, robh, the notes definitely all overlap. I so wish I could solve the LASS legato second note level drop problem with more overlap, or less overlap, or note-butting-right-up-against-each-other, but no - can't get rid of it.

So I spent some time (like three hours) this morning doing my best to fine tune both the LASS and HS versions of this example (each one specific to the library being used).

LASS:

http://soundcloud.com/bwherry/legato-panda-lass-only-leg-v02
This version is using only the legato full section patches. The "second note level drop" problem can clearly be heard in the basses, celli, and violas. Ugh.

http://soundcloud.com/bwherry/legato-panda-lass-leg-and-sus
This one uses sustain patches for the basses and celli. Violins 1 and 2 are still all legato. Violas are using the sustains for the softer bits and legato for the louder/more expressive parts. Listen to this one back-to-back with the all-legato version above (this one doesn't have that jumpiness just after the note attacks that the all-legato version has). I think you'll agree that this one sounds better overall. It's still not perfect, but I'm pretty pleased with it. There are still some bits of dynamics that aren't the smoothest, which if I were working on this "for realz" I'd double some things with Symphobia, bring in some woodwinds, etc. - but this is close to as good as I can do with only the five LASS full sections and nothing else.

HS:

http://soundcloud.com/bwherry/legato-panda-hs-v02
This is as good as I could get HS to sound for this example. Again, all leg slur LT 6 patches for vlns1, vlns2, vlas, and celli. Leg slur LT 3 for basses. Tuning issue still at 0:12 - nothing I can do about that. Weird jumpiness happening a few times from 0:22 to 0:28 - no matter what I did, I couldn't get around it. (isolated example and fix attempt below) This kills me because when HS is working, it's freakin' _spectacular_ sounding. But I couldn't get around this. Another thing HS lacks is the ability to control the attack speed using note velocity, as LASS has. (HS experts please tell me otherwise, or if it's not velocity what controller it is) I made use of that feature in the LASS version to make some legato transitions pretty fast while leaving others slower. I don't know how to do that in HS. 

http://soundcloud.com/bwherry/hs-legato-level-jumps
Here's the HS level jumpiness isolated. (click the image on the SoundCloud page to see the very simple mod wheel data) I added an extra note at the end to illustrate the "abrupt release" release problem. Notice how the very last note's release is, uhh, pleasant. Not cut off. Listen to the release of the note before it - it's very abrupt. They're the same note, but one has a legato transition at the front, the other one doesn't.

http://soundcloud.com/bwherry/hs-legato-jumps-fix-attempt
Here's an attempt to work around the level jumpiness problem. I just trimmed back a couple notes to get rid of a couple of problematic legato transitions. The beginning of the phrase doesn't have the jumpiness anymore - but it also doesn't have a nice legato style, and the second note doesn't attack the way it really should. And the "abrupt release" problem is still very obvious. :(

Oh, I guess I could have tried using sustain patches for some of the problem areas in HS, as I did with LASS (for different problems) - the problem there is that PLAY doesn't have instrument banks (or something like them) so I'd have to go beyond five MIDI tracks, which seems a bit overboard for this simple example.

Oh, I just saw the repeated requests for the MIDI files - I'll get those up ASAP.

Brian


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## bwherry (Jun 1, 2011)

MIDI files: (can't attach .mid files to posts apparently)

LASS, all legato:
http://www.brianwherry.com/LegatoPanda/ ... Legato.mid
- Vlns1: 24-bit vlns1 full section leg L
- Vlns2: 24-bit vlns2 full section leg L
- Vlas: 24-bit violas full section leg L
- Celli: 24-bit celli full section leg L
- Basses: 24-bit basses full section leg L

HS (diamond), all legato:
http://www.brianwherry.com/LegatoPanda/ ... Legato.mid
- Vlns1: violins 1 leg slur LT 6
- Vlns2: violins 2 leg slur LT 6
- Vlas: violas leg slur LT 6
- Celli: celli leg slur LT 6
- Basses: basses leg slur LT 3

Have at 'em! I'm curious to hear what y'all can come up with, and if you can work around the problems I've encountered more successfully than I have...

Brian


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## Thonex (Jun 1, 2011)

Hi Brian,

Andrew k here from audiobro.

Thanks for posting these.... especially your midi files. This provides a great opportunity to bring up a few things... I'd wish I spend more time, but we have a website deployment that is eating up all my time.

Ok... here is what I found when looking at you midi files... and these aren't criticisms per se... just observations... and my opinion.

Your midi examples sounded robotic and... well... not ideal... so i can definitely feel your frustration. So I took a closer look at your files... (I only looked at the cello since I'm on other deadlines) and here is what I found:

• All note-ons seemed quantized -- This is not "against the law" but always makes things sound more robotic unless you also tempo shift.
• You used *only* the Leg L patch -- you didn't use portamento for a melody which in my opinion is screaming our "please let me play portamtneto" :D 
• You only used the Legato Full patch -- You own the LASS FUll library... and *you're using the most basic/reduced form of a legato patch that LASS has*.
• By using a LP speed P patch, you'd GREATLY benefit from this type of melody.
• Your Modwheel dynamics were not letting the melody react/sing appropriately
• your velocities (they were mostly a velocity of 1) lead me to believe that they were not played in... simply entered?

So... as a quick exercise, I took you cello part... re-placed the modwheel with one that I played in real time. Made a few tweaks hear and there... changed the velocities so they would trigger leg or port articulation. Finally... loaded the divisi patches with a first chair (since you have LASS FUll) and after about 10 minutes of altering your "quantized" track I had something (IMO) more melody and expressive. 

It only took me about 10 minutes. 

I bring this up because there are really no shortcuts when it comes to making good sounding midi mock-ups. Talk to any of the great midi mock-up gurus.... attention to detail is paramount. 

So my example is not to show you what a good rendition is (I would have chosen a slower tempo for this melody and played each divisi in separately if it was me -- but I wanted to go based on your midi file)... only the difference 10 minute can make if you apply the portamantos.

Ten minute cello fix rough

I hope this helps.

ok... back to "new web deployment hell"....

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## germancomponist (Jun 1, 2011)

Thonex @ Wed Jun 01 said:


> Ten minute cello fix rough
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> ...



o-[][]-o


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## robh (Jun 1, 2011)

Hi Brian,

I've played your MIDI file and now I can see what you're dealing with. I've tried messing with the cellos and even tried to perform the cello line myself but couldn't get a satisfactory result. Here's your MIDI file playing LASS A, B, C + FC divisi section.
http://www.box.net/shared/96872g624x. All I did was tweak the velocities so it wasn't triggering portamento all the time - I may have missed a few.

Much better result IMO. I strongly recommend getting the upgrade, if you don't have it already.

EDIT: I see Andrew beat me to it. And since you own LASS full - holy cow Brian, USE IT!  

Rob


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## Lex (Jun 1, 2011)

Heres me playing with it....didn't have time to play it in which is the main problem in this mockup...but I randomized the notes a bit at least..

http://www.aleksandardimitrijevic.com/VI/PANDAtest2.mp3 (www.aleksandardimitrijevic.com/VI/PANDAtest2.mp3)

alex


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 1, 2011)

Here's one thing to try - some instruments that implement multiple CCs can behave funny if some aren't set to a value. Basically it means that you can get things not working right if you don't at least wiggle the controller (or set a value in your sequencer). It sounds like you're using all modwheel, if you haven't already maybe check to make sure CC11 is set for all instruments.


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## Ed (Jun 1, 2011)

Here's a *quick *version with Cinematic Strings using the MIDI file above, tweaked it a bit... with some Kontakt Convolution Lexi verb.

tbh, I don't think I would have written the notes like this, (_i'd have probably written it "wrong", but I think it probably would sounded better I dunno_) I'm starting to think its a hard MIDI for any library to play, or maybe I just write stuff differently as normally CS sounds a lot better to me. *Edit: Robh's sounds the best to me*

But I think it holds up pretty well to most of whats been posted here. The violins sound really nice IMO, I only used the smaller 2nd violins because the 1st violins in the full mics have no release control and I always need a bit more release. You can hear just the violins after the full version.

http://www.edbradshawmusic.com/PANDA.mp3 (www.edbradshawmusic.com/PANDA.mp3)


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## Ed (Jun 1, 2011)

Here's a track with the original theme in if any one was wondering:


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## tfishbein82 (Jun 1, 2011)

If nothing else, this thread has caused one more Kung Fu Panda soundtrack sale.


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## bwherry (Jun 1, 2011)

tfishbein82 @ Wed Jun 01 said:


> If nothing else, this thread has caused one more Kung Fu Panda soundtrack sale.



Hahah, nice! Pick up Kung Fu Panda 2 as well - I like it even more than the first.


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## Lex (Jun 1, 2011)

Heres another version with more stage sound I guess?

http://www.aleksandardimitrijevic.com/VI/PANDAtest3.mp3 (www.aleksandardimitrijevic.com/VI/PANDAtest3.mp3)

alex


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## bwherry (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Andrew, thanks for looking into this, especially with your crazy schedule these days (I'm anxiously awaiting the new site and the LASS sordinos as many others are). My quantization of the note starts is a (bad?) habit that's a carryover from quantizing drums, my initial experience doing MIDI sequencing in the computer. You're absolutely right about that quantization working against the desire for an expressive/human/realistic sound - I'll have to keep that in mind in the future and update the MIDI data accordingly for updates to this example. Thanks for your version, too. Was that just using the first chair? Or divisis and first chair? Please clarify. Those big jumps definitely do sound nice with the port. One of the reasons I chose the simplest legato patches was for a better ability to compare with Hollywood Strings - I don't think my machine will even be able to load one of the HS patches that has portamento.  I also originally chose to put the simplest "legato L" full section patches into my template, as I hadn't used any real legato patches before and all the documentation of the different CC's required for the other legato/port/speed/etc. patches was a little overwhelming. And since I didn't have the best initial experience with the _simplest_ legato patches (mainly the second note level drop problem), I figured the more complicated ones would make me even more frustrated (or would have _other_ problems). But I guess I should put some effort into trying them out and experimenting with all the different CC possibilities...

All that being said, shouldn't one be able to get decent (not spectacular, but acceptable) results using only the full section, basic legato patches? If the answer is always "you've gotta use the divisi sections, 'cause the full section legato sections don't really work" why bother shipping them? I try to use full section patches partly because loading all the divisi sections and first chairs for every section would eat up a lot of memory in my template.

robh, as you seem to be more familiar with LASS's portamento and whatnot (and might have more free time than Andrew) can you try seeing what kind of results you can get with just five patches, all full sections? Be they leg only, leg+port, whatever, but all full-section mix patches, and only one patch per instrument section. I'm really curious to hear how good someone (other than me) can make that sound. Your A, B, C + FC divisi example sounds nice (albeit very loud) - but is using way more patches than "a simple example" - which was my initial intent. If you've got time, I'm all ears! 

Any Hollywood Strings users have a moment to try out the MIDI data to see if you can work around the problems I had?

Brian


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## noiseboyuk (Jun 1, 2011)

Only just dipping in to this thread (sporadic net access for a few days). Just played your leg v02 version, Brian. Nice enough LASS tone, but I have to say it does feel very mechanical, and for me far more than the quantizing, tempo-riding or full section patches it's the cc1, which seems very artificial. I'm struggling to download Andrew's version, but I can imagine how it will sound! My new favourite sample library quote is by John Powell - composer of this theme, no less - who says that in order to sound ok, the controller data from sample libs on your DAW needs to "look like the ****ing Alps". With LASS it's pretty simple - just musical application of CC1 will get you most of the way there, CC11 and 83 are almost optional for finesse. All imho, I don't claim to be an expert, but the biggest key to LASS sounding good is cc1 permanently on the left hand and ride it, baby.


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## Ed (Jun 1, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jun 01 said:


> My new favourite sample library quote is by John Powell - composer of this theme,



How do you know Powell composed it?


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## noiseboyuk (Jun 1, 2011)

Ed @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Wed Jun 01 said:
> 
> 
> > My new favourite sample library quote is by John Powell - composer of this theme,
> ...



Oh yeah, forgot it was a collaboration with Zimmer... _possible_ composer of the theme!


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## JohnG (Jun 1, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ 1st June 2011 said:


> I don't claim to be an expert, but the biggest key to LASS sounding good is cc1 permanently on the left hand and ride it, baby.



I agree, though I'd just add that riding cc11 helps too. Same with HS, but you have to ride them in different proportions. Takes some practice.


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## bwherry (Jun 1, 2011)

Hey Guy, if you or anyone else want to take my MIDI file and modify the CC1 data as you see fit, and still use only five full-section patches and nothing else, please do. Andrew's cello was quite nice, but (if I read correctly) he used multiple divisi patches. robh used all the divisi sections, plus the first chair. So that's that, but I'm really curious how good the full-section patches can be made to sound with careful finessing of CC1 or whatever other controller data one sees fit. Please, have at it! (still awaiting some HS users to try as well)

Oh, and if you are able to get a nice result using the full section patches, please post your MIDI file, as an educational tool for ME! :lol: 

Brian

ps- On which composer to attribute this particular melody/theme, I think I remember Hans taking credit for this one in an interview. I think he referred to it as the "Oogway ascends" theme or something. IIRC the interview was the recent one Hans did with Daniel Schweiger where they talked about Henry Jackman, Lorne Balfe, etc.


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## bwherry (Jun 1, 2011)

JohnG @ Wed Jun 01 said:


> noiseboyuk @ 1st June 2011 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't claim to be an expert, but the biggest key to LASS sounding good is cc1 permanently on the left hand and ride it, baby.
> ...



Ahh yes, I've tried using CC1 and CC11 together on LASS legato patches before (and regularly use both with other patches/instruments). Didn't work so well on LASS's full section "legato L" patches: http://www.audiobro.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=381 Hear that big "jump" at the end of the clip? I had CC1 and CC11 together on all sections and was getting those weird jumps all over the place. Happened sometimes, didn't happen other times. Good way to make someone insane.

Brian


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## noiseboyuk (Jun 1, 2011)

It'll be a few days til I'm reunited with my DAW Barry, I'm sure someone will beat me to it!


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## bwherry (Jun 1, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jun 01 said:


> It'll be a few days til I'm reunited with my DAW Barry, I'm sure someone will beat me to it!



You named your DAW Barry? I love that. :lol:


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## robh (Jun 2, 2011)

Hi Brian,

Here's my attempt at smoothing things out using Full patches only. I zipped up a MIDI file for you to examine as well.

Here's the mp3. http://www.box.net/shared/ux57lshs0i

What I had to do:
- I used the Leg LPG Speed P+G patches (LP Speed P for Cellos & Basses). You don't necessarily need to load LPG patches, cellos excepted because of the changes I made) but I found that these patches didn't have the level jump as pronounced as the straight legato patches.
- smooth out or adjust some of the CC1 swells. 
- add some CC11 dips to counteract the pumping effect on certain notes.
- change some notes to portamento with CC83 set to 127, as it seemed to work better for that particular situation.
- Legato tweak for the violas: First Note (Fade Out) set to 284ms, Second Note (Attack) set to 194.8 (default patch is FN=181ms, SN=286.5)
- Legato tweak for the cellos: First Note (Fade Out) set to 316ms, (default patch is set to 247ms.

I guess this is why I don't use the full patches anymore. There is a lot less messing around to do when using the divisi patches. I used to use them for sketching out parts when I was on a much slower computer, but thankfully, I don't need to do that anymore.

Rob


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## stevenson-again (Jun 2, 2011)

Ok here is my attempt at a LASS panda:

http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/RohanPandaLASSv1.mp3 (Rohan's Panda LASS v1)

i think i found the 'dipping' that was being referred to by the OP. yeah it was a bit annoying.

incidentally, this has my mastering on it, which slightly distorts (i think in a good way) the sound. i am thinking i should probably post a clean version as well.

i fiddled with a few of the notes to try and make it feel a little less harmonically clunky. really it needs a little extra voicing here and there but i thought for the purposes of making comparisons it wouldn't be a good idea.


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## bwherry (Jun 2, 2011)

Thanks for your contributions, Rob and Rohan.

Rohan, I hear a good deal of portamento in your example, so I know you used one of the port patches - which one(s)?

Unfortunately the second note level drop problem is audible in both (in the softer bits). :( I was hoping that some of the fancier legato/port full-section patches wouldn't have the problem and I could start using those - but maybe not.

Rob, you use the various divisi sections a lot, right? For your previous example, using the divisis + FC, did you have one MIDI track per part and all the divisis + FC being fed from the same MIDI channel? Or did you have multiple MIDI channels for each part and copied the MIDI regions amongst them (perhaps slightly offset the note starts in each, to get more of the "human" element)?

Sorry, I'm asking a lot - I'd try some things out myself, but I'm not at my studio at the moment...

Thanks,

Brian


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## robh (Jun 2, 2011)

bwherry @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Thanks for your contributions, Rob and Rohan.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately the second note level drop problem is audible in both (in the softer bits). :( I was hoping that some of the fancier legato/port full-section patches wouldn't have the problem and I could start using those - but maybe not.


 The level drop problem was unavoidable with these patches. Ultimately, I do think they'd have to have a script/ programming update to improve on them.



> Rob, you use the various divisi sections a lot, right? For your previous example, using the divisis + FC, did you have one MIDI track per part and all the divisis + FC being fed from the same MIDI channel? Or did you have multiple MIDI channels for each part and copied the MIDI regions amongst them (perhaps slightly offset the note starts in each, to get more of the "human" element)?
> 
> Sorry, I'm asking a lot - I'd try some things out myself, but I'm not at my studio at the moment...
> 
> ...


For the divisis+FC example, I loaded up my typical LASS template which includes the Legato P+G Speed P+G patches. The only thing I modified from your MIDI file was the note velocities, so they only triggered legato.
I typically have all the divisis +FC on one channel. I also have the Note delay and randomization on for the divisis (default setting), but not the FC.

Rob


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## Ashermusic (Jun 2, 2011)

OK , I spent a half hour with that MIDI file with HS using those same patches.

http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/legato-panda-hs-ja


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## Ed (Jun 2, 2011)

very nice Jay. Still a bit jumpy in places, but that sounds like controller issues just need a bit of smoothing?


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## Ashermusic (Jun 2, 2011)

Ed @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> very nice Jay. Still a bit jumpy in places, but that sounds like controller issues just need a bit of smoothing?



Absolutely Ed. And Rohan is absolutely correct in that the voicing need work. If I were to write violins that high I would certainly double them an octave lower i.e.


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## Ed (Jun 2, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Ed @ Thu Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> > very nice Jay. Still a bit jumpy in places, but that sounds like controller issues just need a bit of smoothing?
> ...



And I would have doubled stuff and had sections play more than one line, its not a string quartet, but then I dunno if you're meant to do it like this.


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## Mahlon (Jun 2, 2011)

Very nice rendition.

Mahlon


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## germancomponist (Jun 2, 2011)

What I do not understand here: 

Have you listend to Andrew`s "Ten minute cello fix rough"???


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## Mahlon (Jun 2, 2011)

Yeah, that's the one I'm talking about. The quote didn't come through. Alex's is mighty fine, too, as well as Rob's divisi one.

Mahlon


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## bwherry (Jun 2, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> OK , I spent a half hour with that MIDI file with HS using those same patches.
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/legato-panda-hs-ja



...and it's got the same problems mine had - violins disappear at one point, level jumpiness in several places, etc. Thanks for the effort, though! (I've submitted isolated examples of the problems I've found to EastWest's support, BTW)

Brian


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## bwherry (Jun 2, 2011)

robh @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> The level drop problem was unavoidable with these patches. Ultimately, I do think they'd have to have a script/ programming update to improve on them.



That's what I was hoping for, but it's been over a year since I reported it and it hasn't happened. :(



> For the divisis+FC example, I loaded up my typical LASS template which includes the Legato P+G Speed P+G patches. The only thing I modified from your MIDI file was the note velocities, so they only triggered legato.
> I typically have all the divisis +FC on one channel. I also have the Note delay and randomization on for the divisis (default setting), but not the FC.



Ahaaa! "Note delay and randomization." Maybe that's the key to masking any legato transition artifacts/level differences. Rob, would you mind posting one or two of the cello divisi sections soloed (and no reverb)? I'm curious if the second note level drop is present at all in those...

Again, many thanks!

Brian


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## Ashermusic (Jun 2, 2011)

bwherry @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Ashermusic @ Thu Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> > OK , I spent a half hour with that MIDI file with HS using those same patches.
> ...



Yes, but nowhere near to the same degree frankly IMHO.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 2, 2011)

> Rohan, I hear a good deal of portamento in your example, so I know you used one of the port patches - which one(s)?



I just used my standard full mix template with the LPG patches. some of what you are hearing is in fact glissando. i would not normally use as much as that but this particular cue lends itself to it being a bit ethnicky chinese.

it was quite a good exercise and i realize i have noticed the note dipping problem before but here it is more exposed than ever. one thing i might try tomorrow is transposing down a semitone - to see if it is a specific note related thing. in general LASS is not always smooth with such things. LASS is not perfect by any stretch but one must not forget these 2 very important things:

- i could never never do anything remotely close to what i can do now with LASS before it was developed with any tools i knew of. it has a clarity that still unmatched and incredibly valuable for a lot of situations beyond its simple functionality.

- i regard it as the gold standard for programming of a sample library. it is incredibly easy and intuitive to get to grips with (the only issue is that it is overly brash in its raw form requiring very sensitive eqing and staging).

i might have a go with *shudder and suck through teeth* HS Gold as well to see what can be made of it.


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## bwherry (Jun 2, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> bwherry @ Thu Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Thu Jun 02 said:
> ...



I hear "problems" more often in yours, but at lesser severity each time, whereas I only hear it a few times in mine, but really bad. So it's either a bunch of paper cuts or a punch in the face - neither is particularly pleasant. I also noticed that you've brought the CC1 of the first violins and cellos way down around 0:27-0:28, I'm guessing to minimize or alleviate "legato jump" problems. So the problem in the library/player/whatever isn't as apparent but the music suffers, as it sounds totally weird (they all but disappear when they should be really soaring - WTF?). I'd love to see if you can make an example using the current version of HS that doesn't compromise the artistic intent. And/or do whatever you can to expedite the HS/PLAY bug fixes for these issues... :wink: 

Brian


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## Ashermusic (Jun 2, 2011)

bwherry @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Ashermusic @ Thu Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> > bwherry @ Thu Jun 02 said:
> ...



I don't know the original piece so I just spent just a little time making it sound decent to my ears, which it now does. I ran it by one friend who is also a forum member to check out first and he also thought it sounded pretty good so I went ahead and posted it.

Bottom line is I am convinced that on my composing gigs I can use it and get a nice result with it added to my other libraries, which is all I care about.


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## bwherry (Jun 2, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> > Rohan, I hear a good deal of portamento in your example, so I know you used one of the port patches - which one(s)?
> 
> 
> 
> I just used my standard full mix template with the LPG patches. some of what you are hearing is in fact glissando. i would not normally use as much as that but this particular cue lends itself to it being a bit ethnicky chinese.



It does sound nice. I really need to look into using the L/P/G patches (and divisis)...




> it was quite a good exercise and i realize i have noticed the note dipping problem before but here it is more exposed than ever.



I think the first time I used the legato L full-section mix patches it was on a cue that had a lot of those "low-middle" velocities and the stepping was all over the place. Almost sounded like delayed 8th notes echoing all the note attacks. I'm understanding more and more that folks are getting much better results using the LASS divisi sections - which is on the top of my to-do list! (or "to try" list, I should say)



> one thing i might try tomorrow is transposing down a semitone - to see if it is a specific note related thing.



You're welcome to try, but in my experience, the notes don't matter - it's all over.



> in general LASS is not always smooth with such things. LASS is not perfect by any stretch but one must not forget these 2 very important things:
> 
> - i could never never do anything remotely close to what i can do now with LASS before it was developed with any tools i knew of. it has a clarity that still unmatched and incredibly valuable for a lot of situations beyond its simple functionality.
> 
> - i regard it as the gold standard for programming of a sample library. it is incredibly easy and intuitive to get to grips with (the only issue is that it is overly brash in its raw form requiring very sensitive eqing and staging).



Oh, I absolutely agree!! Since I got it (when it came out) I've used it on every project, on every cue, etc. and absolutely could not be without it! When I first had the idea to do a LASS/HS comparison using the KFP theme it was really out of curiosity more than anything else. I've only had Hollywood Strings for a little while now and figured this was a fairly simple (and pleasant) example on which I could see how the basic, full-section legato patches from the two different libraries would sound playing the same stuff. More curiosity about the tonal characteristics of each, etc. I didn't set out to bash either library or company. But problems did surface with both...

Your defense of LASS's general awesomeness (with which I wholeheartedly agree) makes me think of the interesting dynamic that exists on this board with respect to finding problems/solutions related to specific products/libraries. Since just about every library developer is represented here (Andrew K from audiobro, Mike & Mike from Cinesamples, Paul from Spitfire, Thomas and Nick from EastWest, ...) there's a more, umm, "personal connection" than with many other product-focused discussion boards (say for cars, DAWs from big companies, computers, etc.). I'm quite sure the library developers are very small companies (often times just one or two guys) and I actually do fear that any issue I may raise here with one of their products will potentially cause them a lost sale or two - which little by little ultimately affects their lives/familes/etc. I do care! It's sort of a weird position for a customer to be in. I love these products, and I want to make sure they stay around for a long time so I can keep buying them and make better-sounding music. But at the same time, I've paid thousands of dollars and I want the dang things to work properly. But if I don't post publicly I won't be able to harness the collective experience of the folks on this board, who may have workarounds. So it's a tricky balance. 



> i might have a go with *shudder and suck through teeth* HS Gold as well to see what can be made of it.



Oh, please do!

Thanks again,

Brian


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## Elektroakoustika (Jun 2, 2011)

I don't think any of the LASS people have really given it justice yet so here's mine with LASS:

http://soundcloud.com/everynewday17/kung-fu-panda-lass

-ea


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## Elektroakoustika (Jun 2, 2011)

I don't think any of the LASS people have really given it justice yet so here's mine with LASS:

http://soundcloud.com/everynewday17/kun ... ss/s-XBVtQ

-ea


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## Pzy-Clone (Jun 2, 2011)

LOL..well not that anyone needs another version of this ( I don`t really find it very good either), but i thought it would be interesting to see how a couple of those "outdated" libraries hold up against the Lasses and HS in this thread.

So here goes:

http://soundcloud.com/pzy-clone/pzy_kong_fu_panda_demo

Done with VSL Apassionata, Sonivox and String Essentials 2.

I also tweaked the midi a bit, of course.


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## Thonex (Jun 2, 2011)

Elektroakoustika @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> I don't think any of the LASS people have really given it justice yet so here's mine with LASS:
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/everynewday17/kun ... ss/s-XBVtQ
> 
> -ea



Nice one!!! As usual!!!

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## bwherry (Jun 2, 2011)

Elektroakoustika @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> I don't think any of the LASS people have really given it justice yet so here's mine with LASS:
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/everynewday17/kun ... ss/s-XBVtQ
> 
> -ea



Nice! Did you use full-section patches, or divisi combos? Which ones?

Thanks,

Brian


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## NYC Composer (Jun 2, 2011)

In listening to this comparison, two thoughts come to mind:

1. Man, what good choices we have these days.
2. Wondering-is anyone else hearing the large level differences between some of these examples?


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## EwigWanderer (Jun 3, 2011)

Thomas_J @ 6.3.2011 said:


> Disclaimer: I don't know this piece of music, so I based my version on bwherry's. I used the Hollywood Strings powerful system legato slur patches (close mics). I didn't bother with glissandi as it was just a quick attempt, but some tasteful glisses here and there could probably make it better.
> 
> http://www.thomasbergersen.com/music/Kungfu-Hollywood-Strings.mp3 (http://www.thomasbergersen.com/music/Ku ... trings.mp3)



That sounds good!

Are there any special deals coming up from EW for HS... "Buy HS and get Thomas Bergersen as a special extra feature". I have a modest studio, but the view from the window is great. :wink: 

o-[][]-o


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## stevenson-again (Jun 3, 2011)

@Elektroakoustika

that is indeed the best version so far, both in terms of programming and sound.

@ thomas_J

oi! don't cheat! that's a lovely arrangement but it's not barry's original... 

actually it sounds a touch muffled to me. i think HS can sound a bit clearer than that. if you get time could you have another go? you are obviously the man to be able to represent HS with it. never-the-less i'm going to have a go with Gold and see what can't be done with just those mid mics.

sigh. pick the guy whose between jobs and trying to find any excuse not to have to go through tax issues..... :-(


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## Pochflyboy (Jun 3, 2011)

took a stab at it...

http://ow.ly/59fYL

check it out... for the 1st Vlns and Cellos I used LPG patches. For the harmonies I just used the ens patch and just doubled it with the sord ens patch. All LASS obviously. Kept it easy and fast.


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## Pedro Camacho (Jun 3, 2011)

I am getting sick of these threads with poor demos from both libraries.

ThomasJ demo is, obviously, way far better than any other demo due to proper mix/reverb usage and mastering.

Much of a library sound comes from the user and not the library itself.

This means that LASS vs HS is quite pointless.
LASS is super amazing in its way (closer sound Medium/Small Sound Stage Sound, non multi-mic) HS is super amazing in its way too (multimic, can create a large Sound Stage hall sound easily)

Both are expressive, sound great, professionally programmed and play great.
HS perhaps had a better recording engineer which is very important in a multi mic lib, no so in a single close mic lib (LASS case).

In my opinion the only drawback is the Play/Kontakt aspect.


Any serious professional composer will own both libraries since each project may require a certain "sound".


Besides being a pianist, I also played Cello in the conservatoire for some years and you really have to understand how a string instrument works to get the most out of a library.

Above all you should know how it SHOULD sound in your head, not use the library "blindly" and think "oh this sounds cool".


LASS, for example, is extremely used in its FF and FFF region, which is unnatural. Most CC1 usage should be below 80 and CC11 should be user to get subtle sounds when CC1 wont work.

HS, has a completely different response to CC usage and you really have to know what you want and "learn" to play the library to get that sound you need.


In sum:
_Dont let the library tell you the sound you will get, make the library reproduce the sound YOU want._


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## stevenson-again (Jun 3, 2011)

> ThomasJ demo is, obviously, way far better than any other demo due to proper mix/reverb usage and mastering.



Sorry mate but I don't agree at all. I am sure Thomas can do much much better, but his version is by far not the best.

If you are sick of these threads then don't post. This is actually quite an interesting exercise and one we should do more often. By comparing our relative stabs with either library you can get a better idea of their capabillities.

I am having a wee stab with HS gold, which I'll post shortly. It is veryb interesting the relative comparisons and much more interesting than 'EW are rubbish because PLAY is awful la la la.' 

Maybe I have too much time on my hands (ho ho) but I think this quite an interesting exercise.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 3, 2011)

http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/RohanPandaHSv1.mp3 (Rohan's Panda HS Gold v1)

here is my gold version. there are some problems i have never been able to overcome with HS gold:

- it's a bit glitchy - this was my best take. i have to use the standalone which is better than using the plug-in, but still. i am using powerful patches, just one standalone instance, an SSD, 18Gb of RAM 8-core MAC. no doubt PLAY 3 will improve on this.

- if the end of one note is too close to the start of the next you get a transition no matter what. you make it shorter and shorter you get a gap. is there some remedy for this?

- it doesn't handle repeated notes brilliantly. there is probably a trick to this though - i'd love to know it.

otherwise, glorious sound. i added a bit of the hollywood reverb and a little bit of my own reverb and i did my usually mastering trick. i'm not sure that's best for this experiment though, but too late....


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## re-peat (Jun 3, 2011)

Pedro Camacho @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> ThomasJ demo is, obviously, way far better than any other demo due to proper mix/reverb usage and mastering.


Actually, Pedro, I was rather surprised to hear how poor this particular Thomas' mix sounded. So surprised in fact that I was meaning to ask him about it, because it's so uncharacteristic of his work. There's quite a bit of booming low-mids throughout, first at 0'15" (not much, but noticeable nonetheless) and then really, really bad between 0'29"-0'33" and between 0'43"-0'49", and the entire mix sounds strangely dull as well to my ears ... 

And I agree with Rohan: really quite interesting to listen to all that surfaces in this thread. Haven't heard a single thing which I really like the sound of though. But that might be something to do with the music as well. Very vulgar and tiresome bit of music, I find. 

_


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## JohnG (Jun 3, 2011)

But Piet, if I eliminate both vulgar _and_ tiresome, how am I supposed to get through the day?


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## stevenson-again (Jun 3, 2011)

John - Haha! I know I certainly coudn't.

Piet, I think the tune is fine but it is just barry's rough sketch that we have taken as the point of reference. It really could do with being properly fleshed out and re-voiced.

What make's the experiment interesting is that it has characteristic and difficult to phrase lines in the cellos and violins. They suggest juidice use of portamento as well as legato, and it is sufficiently short for us to have the time to smash together.

Maybe the mistake was to be too didactic about sticking to barry's original sketch. Perhaps if interest continues we get into improving the arrangement? What do you think?

In any case this has been a good chance for me to re-acquaint myself with HS. It is such a promising library....


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## Ashermusic (Jun 3, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> John - Haha! I know I certainly coudn't.
> 
> Piet, I think the tune is fine but it is just barry's rough sketch that we have taken as the point of reference. It really could do with being properly fleshed out and re-voiced.
> 
> ...



Well in my case, and I suspect Thomas' as well, we were simply too busy to spend a lot of time trying to re-create a piece we don't know but felt that even with a minimal amount of tweaking to the MIDI file we could make it sound better that what the original HS version sounded like. I am confident that we both did but that of course becomes a subjective assessment.


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## re-peat (Jun 3, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> Maybe the mistake was to be too didactic about sticking to barry's original sketch. Perhaps if interest continues we get into improving the arrangement? What do you think?


Rohan,

I'm thoroughly fascinated whichever way this develops, mainly for the reason you've already mentioned yourself: there are indeed a couple of very difficult to model celli- and violins 'expressions' in this piece, and it is very illuminating to hear how different people (and two excellent stringlibraries) address this most daunting of challenges.

As for the melody: not with you, I'm afraid. Even with the most supportive voicing or an inspired (re)harmonization, it'll always remain a terribly cheap, saccharine and banal melodic idea which, as far as I'm concerned, invariably outstays its welcome long before it finishes.

_


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## Pedro Camacho (Jun 3, 2011)

@stevenson-again
Well, yes my topic from some days ago was even worse than this, agreed. 

However I respect EW and I love their work. I just have dream/hope to see EW on Kontakt again...someday!! That's all.


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## JohnG (Jun 3, 2011)

re-peat @ 3rd June 2011 said:


> As for the melody: not with you, I'm afraid. Even with the most supportive voicing or an inspired (re)harmonization, it'll always remain a terribly cheap, saccharine and banal melodic idea which, as far as I'm concerned, invariably outstays its welcome long before it finishes.
> 
> _



Is nothing sacred?

First it's vulgar and tiresome, now you're going after cheap, saccharine and banal.

What's left? I'm clinging to repetitious, derivative, childish and obvious.


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## madbulk (Jun 3, 2011)

Piet doesn't actually _like_ music. He's just kinda invested in it at this point.


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## bwherry (Jun 3, 2011)

I had another go at this:

http://soundcloud.com/bwherry/legato-panda-lass-leg-lpg

This time I used the LASS divisi patches, with the "LPG" patches in the violins and violas, and the "LP" patches in the celli and basses. Release triggers off, everything else "stock". Still only five MIDI tracks, but each MIDI track is feeding three LASS patches (divisis A, B, and C). I think it's a bit better than I had done before. Still by no means perfect, but has much less noticeable "second note level drop" (to my ears) and using some normal legato, some portamento, and some gliss does give it more of a human element... I also used a little more reverb.

Yes, this has strayed from my original intent of using only full-section patches from both libraries for a more direct comparison, but whatevs.

I still need to check out Rohan's Panda HS Gold v1...

I'm sorry my original arrangement is so painful/disastrous/simple/whatever for some people to bear to listen to (paraphrasing). If you've got a different short example for which you'd like to see a LASS-vs-HS comparison with just the five sections playing, by all means share it. Or shut it. :wink: 

BTW, who's this Barry guy? 

Brian


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## bwherry (Jun 3, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/RohanPandaHSv1.mp3 (Rohan's Panda HS Gold v1)
> 
> here is my gold version. there are some problems i have never been able to overcome with HS gold:
> 
> ...



Yeah, this was similar to my experience: the sound is glorious, but the glitches are excruciating. :cry: Please submit isolated examples of whatever problems you find to EastWest support. The more they know the better/faster they can make fixes.


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## David Story (Jun 3, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/RohanPandaHSv1.mp3 (Rohan's Panda HS Gold v1)



Rohan gives us the best performance so far, and I would say it's close to the best you can get from a mockup.
It's not the best audio(TJ) or the cleanest. It simply works as music. And yes it's saccharine, that was what the film called for, it's Jack Black playing a Panda.


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## Joe S (Jun 3, 2011)

Pedro Camacho @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> I am getting sick of these threads with poor demos from both libraries.
> 
> ThomasJ demo is, obviously, way far better than any other demo due to proper mix/reverb usage and mastering.
> 
> ...




Thomas's demo is by far the best because for this type of piece, HS is by far the best library you can use. Period. But yes Thomas knows what good film music should sound like. I doubt that Thomas did any fancy mixing or mastering. But I could be wrong. Someone made a boomy comment. I think that person needs to check their room/speakers.


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## Pochflyboy (Jun 3, 2011)

Joe S @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> HS is by far the best library you can use. Period.



Not really period... there are many composers who would disagree with this.....  



Joe S @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> Someone made a boomy comment. I think that person needs to check their room/speakers.



I actually agree with them. There is a lot goin on in the low freqs in his. Depending on the project though it could be perfect though... really depends. Just a matter of interpretation of the piece.


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## Joe S (Jun 3, 2011)

Pochflyboy @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> Joe S @ Fri Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > HS is by far the best library you can use. Period.
> ...




---------------------------------

Yes I am sure that all the composers that are deaf as doorknobs will disagree. The Thomas HS version is very full sounding in the same exact way that any big Hollywood piece is. You could back off the basses a couple db maybe and add a touch of 12k, if you like the thinner 70s and 80s film sound. But the point here is that if you are a reasonably experienced film composer, have a good set of speakers and were on national TV and had to explain to the world which version was best, almost everyone would pick the same version. Give me a break.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 3, 2011)

Since there seem to be some glitches in both libraries, it would be great if those who have been able to create renditions without those glitches (or ones that were well received, or heck, anyone who's willing) to put up midi files along with the audio. Aside from differences in interpretation there are problems to be solved and idiosyncrasies to be worked around - it's great to hear versions that overcome those but it would be even better to be able to see specifically how that was done.

Thanks for doing this thread, it's been fascinating to hear all the examples and get insights about the tricks used to make them better. I'd love to see more like this with different source material.


Also, now that it's released, anyone want to try this example with the new Sordinos for comparison?


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## Pochflyboy (Jun 3, 2011)

Joe S @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> Give me a break.



LOL okay I will give you a break 


I am pretty deaf... no wonder this industry is such a challenge for me.


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## JohnG (Jun 3, 2011)

However, now that you mention it, the industrious output from many deaf composers would explain a lot.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 3, 2011)

JohnG @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> However, now that you mention it, the industrious output from many deaf composers would explain a lot.



Sorry...could you repeat that, please?


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## germancomponist (Jun 3, 2011)

Some cool demos here. 

I think, the best way to do comparisons between sample libraries "playing the same music", is to post the example on paper and not to post a midifile.

But yeah, this would mean that the testers would have much more work for doing their examples..... . o/~


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## stevenson-again (Jun 3, 2011)

> Re: A(nother?) LASS/HS legato comparison
> Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:48 pm
> JohnG @ Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:43 pm wrote:
> However, now that you mention it, the industrious output from many deaf composers would explain a lot.
> ...



I think he said:

"how heavy, now that you bludgeon it, the nefarious cockpit from moneyed decomposers would explode a mop."


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## José Herring (Jun 6, 2011)

Sorry to bring this back. But, I didn't get a chance to get to this until today.

I wanted to see if this could be done with older libraries using non-legato patches. I kind of felt that in all the examples the legato was actually getting in the way of the music and not contributing to it. 

So I did one with older libraries. How do you think it stacks up?

http://soundcloud.com/jherringmusic


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## Hicks (Jun 7, 2011)

Pedro Camacho @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> I am getting sick of these threads with poor demos from both libraries.
> 
> ThomasJ demo is, obviously, way far better than any other demo due to proper mix/reverb usage and mastering.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with you!
On VSL forum, a guy tries all libraries with the same music excerpt. He put a lot of sweat on each examples, and I think that's a pretty good comparison.

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/28808.aspx

I would add that CC1 should be used carrefuly. With LASS I prefer to set up the CC1 to the dynmaic I want (for example mezzopiano around 60) and then move just a little the wheel or use CC11. But big rides on CC1 (like heard on a lot of examples) sounds fake quite instantly.


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## JohnG (Jun 7, 2011)

stevenson-again @ 3rd June 2011 said:


> > Re: A(nother?) LASS/HS legato comparison
> > Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:48 pm
> > JohnG @ Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:43 pm wrote:
> > However, now that you mention it, the industrious output from many deaf composers would explain a lot.
> ...



I'm pretty sure you must have translated my printer manual.


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## Ed (Jun 7, 2011)

re-peat @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> Pedro Camacho @ Fri Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > ThomasJ demo is, obviously, way far better than any other demo due to proper mix/reverb usage and mastering.
> ...



I think TJ's the mix was strange, the main problem was how bloody loud the cellos were at the start, but I agree with the other poster that it sounded the best in that none of the others I listened to more than twice, most once. TJ's actually sounded pleasant enough to want to listen to over and over. I think he also rewrote some of it though, so I think that also helped a great deal. Would be nice to get him to literally copy the *actual *recording :D I bet he could do it better then


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## José Herring (Jun 7, 2011)

Ed @ Tue Jun 07 said:


> re-peat @ Fri Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Pedro Camacho @ Fri Jun 03 said:
> ...



In all honesty I don't think he spent any time on it. Nobody did. That's the problem with these "HS/LASS" comparison threads. It's not like anybody is getting paid to do this, so it's just one half ass attempt after another. Plus directly comparing samples to something that was recorded with real people....never a good idea.


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## Mahlon (Jun 7, 2011)

Jose,
I don't see it on your soundcloud. Which one is it?

Mahlon


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## José Herring (Jun 7, 2011)

Mahlon @ Tue Jun 07 said:


> Jose,
> I don't see it on your soundcloud. Which one is it?
> 
> Mahlon



Sorry I took it down. Didn't really see the point in keeping it around. 

One person commented that it sounded really good but not as good as LASS and HS. True, but I was just trying to see if I could get a good sound on the piece without the use of legato patches. I believe I did. If you want it, PM me your email address and I can send it to you. But, I didn't see any point in keeping it up on soundcloud as I didn't write, arrange this piece .

best,

Jose


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 9, 2011)

I'd still love to hear the new LASS sordinos on this for comparison if someone who has it is willing to give it a shot.


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## José Herring (Jun 9, 2011)

Mike Connelly @ Thu Jun 09 said:


> I'd still love to hear the new LASS sordinos on this for comparison if someone who has it is willing to give it a shot.



In a day or so I could do that. Just got it, but it will take me a while get command of it. Though I'm surprised at how playable LASS-LS is. Also, there's some pretty expressive individual samples and good connection between the notes. It should handle this pretty well.


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## José Herring (Jun 9, 2011)

Mike Connelly @ Thu Jun 09 said:


> I'd still love to hear the new LASS sordinos on this for comparison if someone who has it is willing to give it a shot.



I put KFP with LASS-LS up. Keep in mind that I've never used LASS of any kind before and I've only had LASS-LS on my computer for about 2hrs now.

But, what I did like about LASS LS is that it has a really nice tone for the most part. I found that a quick port kind of connects up in a slur better than the Legato patches and that the legato patches can be used as kind of a soft bowing articulation. Not much in the way of EQ is needed. I ended up turning off the auto EQ in the patches. 

Overall pretty smooth, if I wanted to spend more time on it I'd probably fix a few of the cuttoffs, but I've about had it with this "arrangement" :lol: 

http://soundcloud.com/jherringmusic/kng ... s-theme-by


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## germancomponist (Jun 9, 2011)

josejherring @ Thu Jun 09 said:


> Overall pretty smooth, if I wanted to spend more time on it I'd probably fix a few of the cuttoffs, but I've about had it with this "arrangement" :lol:
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/jherringmusic/kng ... s-theme-by



Very nice!


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## nicoroy123 (Jun 9, 2011)

Thomas_J @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> Disclaimer: I don't know this piece of music, so I based my version on bwherry's. I used the Hollywood Strings powerful system legato slur patches (close mics). I didn't bother with glissandi as it was just a quick attempt, but some tasteful glisses here and there could probably make it better.
> 
> http://www.thomasbergersen.com/music/Kungfu-Hollywood-Strings.mp3 (http://www.thomasbergersen.com/music/Ku ... trings.mp3)



This is the richest and deepest version of all IMO. But I agree with some that the mix needs corrections in the low end.


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## Revson (Jun 11, 2011)

I started doodling with some strings I've been programming just after seeing the original post...not too faithful to what else has been posted here, but I think the sound holds up.

http://idisk.mac.com/revson//Public/Panda-esque_revson.aif (http://idisk.mac.com/revson//Public/Pan ... revson.aif)


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## José Herring (Jun 11, 2011)

The strings have a nice tone. But, they don't connect up well at all.

Other than that, interesting interpretation. Though I think the voice leading is a little jumpy and there's too much hocketing of the parts going on.

What strings are these? Is this a private library?


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## Revson (Jun 11, 2011)

josejherring @ Sun Jun 12 said:


> The strings have a nice tone. But, they don't connect up well at all.
> 
> Other than that, interesting interpretation. Though I think the voice leading is a little jumpy and there's too much hocketing of the parts going on.
> 
> What strings are these? Is this a private library?



Jose, thank you for your comments, much appreciated.

I'll have to do some critical listening on the note connections; I'm too close to them to know how the hell they sound right now. Obviously there are no recorded transitions, but I have some ideas for improvement nonetheless.

And yes, the arrangement is a bit, ahem...idiosyncratic, in the voice leading especially. I had to look up "hocketing," and yes that applies.

Thanks again. These samples are out of Notion 2. I'm trying to squeeze all the life out of them I can with programming, as their sound is my favorite of the sampled strings I've heard. Sampled every third semitone and just two dynamic layers (three for violins), it is a challenge, and I'm using a couple techniques in the programming I'm unaware of having been done before.

Oh...the bass line is from Symphobia, haven't got to the basses yet. 

Here's another snippet, a different sequence, this without a bass line:

http://idisk.mac.com/revson//Public/sketch_revson.aif


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## bwherry (Jun 11, 2011)

josejherring @ Thu Jun 09 said:


> <snip>
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/jherringmusic/kng ... s-theme-by



^^^^ link no workey for me. Was it updated?


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## José Herring (Jun 11, 2011)

bwherry @ Sat Jun 11 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Jun 09 said:
> 
> 
> > <snip>
> ...



I took it down. I'm not a remake kind of a guy and didn't want to keep it up for too long.

best,

Jose


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jun 17, 2011)

I don't understand why all HS versions have no portamento or "tie" up to the really high notes.
Isn't HS able to do that.

All the LASS versions "tie" the low notes up to the highest notes of the piece to make it sound realistic. 

On the highest notes HS sounds like a sample just started instead of sounding like its live or connected.

Thomas B. obviously knows what he is doing, so is it just a preference thing or can HS not sound fluid. Other than this they both sound amazing, just different.


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## JohnG (Jun 17, 2011)

Both HS and LASS have patches that feature legato transitions. Depending on the patch and the person creating the demo, including how the notes are played and all that, these are more or less apparent.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jun 17, 2011)

Well can someone post the cue showing off that aspect of HS. Because it sounds like its not even there on the HS version. I'm close to buying HS but LASS's legato/portamento just sounds real. HS sounds as if they don't even have any intervals between samples.

If you go up a Perfect 5th(A to E)LASS triggers a legato or portamento interval right?

Does HS do this?

If it does; which I'm sure you'll say is so, then why does the high notes of the cue sound "dis-attached" from the prior note?


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## JohnG (Jun 17, 2011)

Hi Jeffrey,

I use HS all the time and bought LASS the day it came out. They both have legato. The amount and speed of the legato are user-controllable in HS, depending on which patches one selects. 

You might consider listening to isolated, single-line demos at Soundsonline. There are individual phrases and motifs that allow one to audition a number of patches that are playing alone, without accompaniment. You can really hear how it sounds because there are both wet and dry versions.

Go to this page http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-Strings

Select "DEMOS" and look at the middle one "Diamond Articulations / Legato." 

I don't know what patches people making demos were using, how they used them, etc. Accordingly, whether or not you hear it on user demos depends on the user's choices and, to some extent, willingness to customise his demo for each library, which not everyone takes the time to do. They respond differently to the way you play -- overlapping notes, cc1 and cc11, and velocity.

You can hear some of the sound here -- track is called "Leaving." 

http://www.soundclick.com/johngrahammusic

This was with version 1.0 of HS on the high violins. Had it a week before I had to deliver the score and wasn't able to replace everything, nor was it necessary anyway -- the ostinato line that enters at 1'38" is LASS, but the highest notes are HS.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jun 18, 2011)

That track sounded great John. Very professional. I actually thought the LASS strings in there sounded a tad fake. But the HS strings sounded great.

But overall wonderful stuff. Thanks for the help. Even though even on the HS site I heard little portamento.


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## Max Castillo (Jul 3, 2011)

No offense to anyone but there's still no demo here that does LASS justice.

So here's something I did that I think can stand up to TJ's demo. It's an almost exact copy of it, except done with LASS.

http://www.box.net/shared/zpkjfy0f7tul3kf5fu79


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## ozmorphasis (Jul 3, 2011)

Max Castillo @ Sun Jul 03 said:


> No offense to anyone but there's still no demo here that does LASS justice.
> 
> So here's something I did that I think can stand up to TJ's demo. It's an almost exact copy of it, except done with LASS.
> 
> http://www.box.net/shared/zpkjfy0f7tul3kf5fu79



Wow, that was beautifully done Max! I need to take some Lassons from you!


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jul 3, 2011)

Yes very nice.


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## organix (Jul 4, 2011)

Very nice examples here of both libraries. It's really interesting how different the libs are sounding under different hands. You all do a great work on this small piece of music.

My favorite is Thomas example on HS, but not because of the library. Thomas made some minor changes in the arrangement, that brings a more dreamy and rich string sound.His version shows what you can do with HS, when you can do.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 4, 2011)

Is it fair to summarise that excellent results can be achieved with both, and it comes down to which library you prefer to work with?

Well I suppose a caveat to my own proposal is that its easier to get an instant classic lush Hollywood sound out of HS, whereas LASS can get more intimate sounds. And of course LASS has first chair, which I find pretty indespensible. But HS has runs. Ach, you pays your money and you makes your choice!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 5, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Jul 04 said:


> Is it fair to summarise that excellent results can be achieved with both, and it comes down to which library you prefer to work with?
> 
> Well I suppose a caveat to my own proposal is that its easier to get an instant classic lush Hollywood sound out of HS, whereas LASS can get more intimate sounds. And of course LASS has first chair, which I find pretty indespensible. But HS has runs. Ach, you pays your money and you makes your choice!



I think Organix put it quite well. There is a dreaminess and richness that HS can produce better than any other strings library. But Max did a great job with his LASS version. I just prefer the HS sound but it is a subjective thing.


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## Max Castillo (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks, everyone. If I had to choose between LASS and HS I'd choose HS in a heartbeat. I just can't afford it AND a machine that could run it properly right now.


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## Max Castillo (Jul 8, 2011)

Sorry to bump this again but I think I've found some tricks to make LASS sound more realistic and more "Hollywood." 

http://www.box.net/shared/zpkjfy0f7tul3kf5fu79


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## Mahlon (Jul 8, 2011)

Your Violins 1 _do_ sound silky smooth.


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 8, 2011)

Max, that sounds great. I'd be curious what "tricks" you applied to the second version.

And I assume you're using just the original LASS? I'd be curious what you'd be able to do with the sordinos as an option as well.


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## Rob Elliott (Jul 8, 2011)

Max Castillo @ Fri Jul 08 said:


> Sorry to bump this again but I think I've found some tricks to make LASS sound more realistic and more "Hollywood."
> 
> http://www.box.net/shared/zpkjfy0f7tul3kf5fu79




Max - please share your tricks. I really love both the silkiness and detail you were able to achieve. Very nice.


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## Max Castillo (Jul 9, 2011)

You don't always need to use all the A, B and C sections they recorded. And the high strings need more reverb.


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## Jack Weaver (Jul 9, 2011)

Max,

First of all welcome to the forum! (and all that this portends).

Typically, when people post music claiming it stands up to this or that high standard (and in fact, it does sound quite good) then people will naturally want to know what process created it. 

So let me understand. All you did to those Vln1's is use less than the 3 combined sections and add a lot of reverb?


Jack


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## Mr. Anxiety (Jul 9, 2011)

Nice work Max........ I am with Jack, would love to hear/see what you're using to accomplish this rendering. Which LASS groups, at what balance? What reverb(s)....... ERs and tail? Separate ER and Tail sends/levels/balance,etc. that sort thing.

Looking forward to it.

Mr A


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## Thonex (Jul 10, 2011)

Max Castillo @ Fri Jul 08 said:


> Sorry to bump this again but I think I've found some tricks to make LASS sound more realistic and more "Hollywood."
> 
> http://www.box.net/shared/zpkjfy0f7tul3kf5fu79



Nicely done Max... especially the second half!!

Colin O'Malley also has a similar approach where he often opts to not use all divisis and it still sounds very "Hollywood".

He also discusses his reverb settings more in a thread in our Tips & Tricks forum:

http://audiobro.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=838

Thanks for posting this... truly great attention to detail!

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 10, 2011)

They look like great tips, Andrew, I missed them til now. I know I'm nowhere near Colin's league, but I too tend to work at the lower end of the CC range for the vast majority of the time. It's funny... LASS defaults to CC 127 on launch (I know you can change this) and so often I press a first key and go "yikes!" (the first chairs especially so). The moment it's dialed back it sounds like the terrific instrument we know it is. In context the ff works fine for the big swells, but context is all.


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## Max Castillo (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks again, guys! In this mockup I used only the B and C divisi sections for the violins and violas, only the C for the cellos and the A and C for the basses. All of them are at equal balance except for the cellos which are about 1dB louder because they're only one divisi section. I chose these sections because they had the best tone to my ears (though those C cellos are almost unplayable). This doesn't mean you should always use this config, other types of music might benefit more from the other divisi sections. 

I use the reverb configuration Thomas posted here. I just added one more Altiverb with the far Todd-AO mics on the violins and violas.

Also my LASS is quite heavily EQ'ed. But the less divisi sections you use the less EQ'ing you need to do.

Hope this helps.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jul 14, 2011)

Max can you bounce the midi file you used to make that sample? I'll pay for it.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 15, 2011)

I've posted this someplace, but with LASS, the A players to my ears are a little more aggressive. The C + B are the "smoother" sound. 

I also tested C Cellos and I don't concur that they're unusable. 

When you put together all the C+Bs in LASS, you create what's called the "standard" symphonic string section with 12, 12, 9, 7, 6 which is a very solid and lyrical sound. 

SEE:
http://soniccontrol.tv/2009/07/31/lass-part-1/


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jul 16, 2011)

Is this a bad question to ask or something?

Can anyone bounce down a midi file of their panda clip and send it to me?


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## chimuelo (Jul 16, 2011)

By any chance are you the Jeff Peteresen that worked with the Dae Han Sisters 17 years ago...?
Sorry I had to ask.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jul 20, 2011)

No I'm not that Jeff Peterson. Was born in El Paso though.

Do you need quicktime pro to download?


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 1, 2011)

Hi! Great Sounding Mockups! i tend to Roll off the 2k area in lass and a little 400hz in violins so they sound a little less edgy, generally speaking, i dont use divisi couse of time constrains, i will try to make this mockup so sum up the thread
Bye! :mrgreen:


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Aug 1, 2011)

Max Castillo....give me your midi file


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Aug 1, 2011)

...or somebody that made a good mockup. I just want to see what your doing with sustain...expression...mod wheel...positioning etc.


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## Max Castillo (Aug 2, 2011)

Dude stop it already. Learn to figure stuff out yourself. That's how I did it.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Aug 2, 2011)

Whats the big secret? You didn't give me an answer Max so I asked again. Now I have an answer, I understand. I just want to compare what others do with what I do. I think I have figured out quite a bit, but obviously I'm looking to improve as everyone is. No problem if everyone does not want to share, didn't understand it was such a personal thing. 

If someone is nice enough to provide a midi track so I can compare I would be grateful.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Aug 2, 2011)

Thonex @ Wed Jun 01 said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> Andrew k here from audiobro.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry for taking over this thread but Andrew...why would you play each divisi section separately instead of just playing the full sample. Doesn't the full sample have all the divisi sections anyway? So why record 4 times when you can just record once? 

"...and played each divisi in separately if it was me".

I do not own LASS, but am planning to buy either LASS or HS, and am just educating myself as to the possibilities, and try to get to know each one. I read that auto arranger is buggy so if I did get LASS I'd rather not have 4 samples loaded when I can just have one that sounds the same as all four, but if loading 4 samples(all divisi) sounds better I would like to know why. 

Thank you for any thoughts.

Again I apologize for monopolizing this thread. Anyone feel free to jump in.


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 2, 2011)

Here is my Humble rendition, i took the last midi file posted, and used Lass B+C dvisis plus my old and trusty opus 1 exs24 from VSL (have to put logic in 32 bit mode to get legato and portamento working) a little EQ and reverb and Todd AO impulse on the master Bus , little compression and set to Go! :D 
I liked a lot also TJ arrangement, i will make a mockup on that one too ! o/~ 
Regards!
Christian

Link:http://www.box.net/shared/7o7et33z1o2iy8nsrqae


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## johnhamilton (Aug 2, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Wed 01 Jun said:


> You know what this shows? This shows that no matter what the lib, and no matter the quality of the recording, there needs to be a considerable amount of work done to get anywhere near realism. Both have very good timbre, and had I been hearing both for the first time here, would say that both have an enormous amount of potential to sound really good.
> 
> Cheers.




+1


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2011)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Tue Aug 02 said:


> I'm sorry for taking over this thread but Andrew...why would you play each divisi section separately instead of just playing the full sample. Doesn't the full sample have all the divisi sections anyway? So why record 4 times when you can just record once?



Well think about it, if you play it 4 times you get different modwheel information each time and you get slightly different timing with each divisi section you play which means it sounds less "perfect."


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 2, 2011)

Have you heard my rendition?
What do you think?
Regards,
christian


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 3, 2011)

Jeffrey, there are lots of midi versions in this thread, just go back and find them.

It's great when people are willing to post the midi, but you can't demand that someone do it.


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 3, 2011)

http://www.box.net/shared/7o7et33z1o2iy8nsrqaeDoes my link work?
if don´t please tell me and i´ll upload it to soundcloud or something else!
Regards!
Christian


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Aug 3, 2011)

Christian I think it sounds good. A little rushed I would say, give it time be breath and come to life. Mess with the tempo a little. 

Mike, the only midi file on this thread is from the OP and while I think he's a great guy its not the best IMO. Plus even when I click on it, it starts playing in quicktime and I can't download it.

I understand people don't have to give the midi file but I also don't see what the big deal is. Its not like they are giving away their talent. If they have any talent it will be in the music they write not the ability to make fake strings sound real, no?


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## Mahlon (Aug 3, 2011)

Hi Christian,

Your link is working. I like your rendition. The only small critiques I have are that the portamento may be too pronounced on the celli line. Your celli sound very forceful and intense in volume, especially when they are reaching the top notes of each phrase. There's one or two notes that stick out amplitude-wise. I see the celli in this piece being more relaxed and effortless and smooth -- but that's just a matter of opinion. I'd keep about 50% of the portamento in the celli. Another thing, is that overall the notes sound quantized. Did you use a straight midi track? Or play the notes individually. Also the beginning entry of the very first note sounds a little abrupt.

But you've certainly got a lot of emotion in those lines and the sound is lush and beautiful. Was this LASS, I can't remember?

Mahlon


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 3, 2011)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Thu Aug 04 said:


> Christian I think it sounds good. A little rushed I would say, give it time be breath and come to life. Mess with the tempo a little.
> 
> You are right JEffrey, Thanks for taking the time to listening, yes, y rushed, i forgot to edit tempo map, and work out note by note, but i was looking to improve my EQ Skills and mixing Skills, that i think i´m lacking , i made a thread about reverb muddines here in the forum if anyone want to pass by.Thanks Again, i will keep working on it.
> 
> ...



Mahlon, Thanks for listening and review it, i will try out the portamento and volume issue, you are right, yes i used a midi from this topic and edited a bit, but almost nothing (cc1 and some velocities)
Yes! i´ve used Lass, with Exs24 Vsl layered under it, then logic EQ to smooth out lass 
and Altiverb Todd Impulse.
Whenever i get the other versions im planning, i will post them here!

Thanks both of you you are very helpful!

Regards
Christian


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## Consona (Apr 11, 2012)

Thomas_J @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> Disclaimer: I don't know this piece of music, so I based my version on bwherry's. I used the Hollywood Strings powerful system legato slur patches (close mics). I didn't bother with glissandi as it was just a quick attempt, but some tasteful glisses here and there could probably make it better.
> 
> http://www.thomasbergersen.com/music/Kungfu-Hollywood-Strings.mp3 (http://www.thomasbergersen.com/music/Ku ... trings.mp3)


The link is not working anymore. :( Is there any chance to hear it somewhere else?


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## 667 (Apr 11, 2012)

Has anyone else found the HS Cello BC heavy patches quite broken? The legato connectedness is quite terrible in my opinion. You can hear clearly when the key is pressed and PLAY plays the "legato-BC" sample. It's very loud and unrealistic. But comparing with violins, they sound fine. It's really only the cello patches that have this problem for me.

I'm frankly surprised at this because it sounds so bad-- am I the only one experiencing this? I bought HS when it was released and really expected this to be addressed by now. But no one else is complaining so maybe something wrong with my install..?


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## Inductance (Apr 11, 2012)

667, Did you reset your CC controllers before playing the patch? Give it a try. Load the patch, then wiggle your CC1 and CC11 controllers to reset them, then try playing. Hopefully this fixes your problem.


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## 667 (Apr 11, 2012)

Yes, cc1 and cc11 are fully engaged.  Maybe the BC patches are just supposed to be for fast passages/runs?


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## 667 (Apr 11, 2012)

I've found the problem: bug in the patch programming. Cell Leg BC Slower Ni and Cello BC Slower SM Ni both sound like they are missing the legato/transition samples. Are these two patches playable for everyone else? Is it my install or are they EW bugs?

The rest of the "BC" cello patches are ok. Just the "slower" ones affected.


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## Inductance (Apr 11, 2012)

Wow, good catch! I can't believe I've missed this. I guess people don't use these patches too often, otherwise someone would have spotted this sooner!

I'll report this bug to EW right away (I did some beta testing for them last year, and the beta testing team can still report these kinds of bugs). Hopefully they can release a fix soon...


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## 667 (Apr 15, 2012)

Inductance @ Wed Apr 11 said:


> Wow, good catch! I can't believe I've missed this. I guess people don't use these patches too often, otherwise someone would have spotted this sooner!
> 
> I'll report this bug to EW right away (I did some beta testing for them last year, and the beta testing team can still report these kinds of bugs). Hopefully they can release a fix soon...


I found another one today. "Celli -> 08 Legato Bow change -> Celli Marc Legato BC RR Lt 6". The sustain samples are missing-- so after the legato transition the note just dies when it should sustain (you can compare to the non RR version for reference).

Unfortunately there are still a lot of HS instrument programming bugs. For a while I was writing them down but no one from EW really seemed to care much (emails ignored, forum posts ignored, etc.) so eventually I just gave up and threw out my notes on what was broken on what patch. I was hoping to help contribute and get them fixed-- it's a product I do use, so it would be nice to have al the patches working, and so I was wiling to put in the time to provide accurate bug reports and such-- but in the end EW made it clear to me they had zero interest in addressing their HS bugs so I just gave up. But perhaps you have some contacts that will actually listen and / or give a damn!


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