# Pond 5 is ridiculous



## Sopris (May 22, 2022)

I just saw today I sold a track on pond 5, I had it listed at $129, I received $37. 

This is just gross, straight up. Taking a 65 percent cut is just not on, I thought 50/50 was a lot. It makes you think why doesn't someone come along and build a better website and take say....2%? Let artists have the other 98%. I'm wondering if there's a better RF site to upload to, how's everyone out there been taking this?


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## Barrel Maker (May 22, 2022)

I had the same experience and remember the feeling—I deleted my account the next day.

I don't know the percentage at which joy is sucked from a license, but I _think_ it's 65%.


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## GtrString (May 22, 2022)

Well you contracted pond5 to put it up on their website, didn’t you? Thats what they charge. Put up your own website, find out who the end users are, and market your website to the same people. That’s how you earn 65% more..


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## Crowe (May 22, 2022)

Indeed, once you sign for extortionist practices you are by law no longer allowed to commiserate about said extortionist practices!

Right?


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## timprebble (May 23, 2022)

In other news, rain is wet.


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## Vlzmusic (May 23, 2022)

Sopris said:


> I just saw today I sold a track on pond 5, I had it listed at $129, I received $37.
> 
> This is just gross, straight up. Taking a 65 percent cut is just not on, I thought 50/50 was a lot. It makes you think why doesn't someone come along and build a better website and take say....2%? Let artists have the other 98%. I'm wondering if there's a better RF site to upload to, how's everyone out there been taking this?


I agree with you in general, but its true that in this "lower" segment of stock music distribution, non-exclusive agreements won't get you good cut anyway, so its not just Pond5.


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## Mr Greg G (May 23, 2022)

Just avoid these sites altogether, really not worth it...


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## davidson (May 23, 2022)

Pond5cum, amirite?!


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## AceAudioHQ (May 23, 2022)

Sopris said:


> I just saw today I sold a track on pond 5, I had it listed at $129, I received $37


You're lucky the customer didn't use a voucher, since it doesn't discount the price from pond5's cut but from the overall price. I've sold several tracks to earn only $5 because the customer used a code


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## Sopris (May 23, 2022)

AceAudioHQ said:


> You're lucky the customer didn't use a voucher, since it doesn't discount the price from pond5's cut but from the overall price. I've sold several tracks to earn only $5 because the customer used a code


I think they may have used a code too 😂


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## Roger Newton (May 23, 2022)

Some of these companies, not just music but also for example photography have been bought out.

There's a sort of asset stripping going on with the prices. They'll sell anything for low money and work on volume. It's not strictly asset stripping.

But it's fucking close.


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## gsilbers (May 23, 2022)

You might have to look at these companies and your music almost like selling a sample library or soundset. 

I noticed the people there are gaming the system. They uplaod a lot of similar tracks, different metadata, name etc and then do the same at 40 other similar sites. 

And the music is the stuff that normally is used in social media and kids tracks. And reading up on what the spotify ceo said about artists having to release a lot more than an album every2-3 years and you start getting this picture of quantity in the world of these platofrms sucking dry everyone thanks to amount of competition between music producers. 

And Quality? 

well, thats the thing.. quality has to be good for social media in that style. Corporate tracks, ambient, kids, and neutral beats or generic trailer stuff. The quality for us sucks becuase its _that_ music. But its serving a purpose for those social media and content creators. Not to be used in the next tv show needle drop etc. 

Then... we have less quality which is basically garageband loop mashups. Which is why bigfish audio was having an issue with people using the demo track or sounding like the demo track... ehhmmm becuase thats what was happening. 


The future sucks.


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## Henu (May 24, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> The future sucks.


Nah, when the dust settles and the garagebanders have oversatured and bored everyone to death, it's our time to shine again.


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## Roger Newton (May 24, 2022)

The MO of a lot of this kind of writing is has a lot to do with being able to exist on $10 a week. My advice is not to get involved with this type of publishing. It's garbage.


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## gsilbers (May 24, 2022)

Roger Newton said:


> The MO of a lot of this kind of writing is has a lot to do with being able to exist on $10 a week. My advice is not to get involved with this type of publishing. It's garbage.


Not sure about that.

You have one track that sells for $25 that gets bought 100 times a year (at different outlets) and then make about 100 of those types of tracks.

Poeple are making those types of numbers. Which is, and I might be wrong, but a lot more than Spotify type platforms.

It’s just that it’s not part of our distribution bubble so we see it as wierd and low brow not making money. It does make some money, it’s just not broadcast, tv composer money.


It’s just a different ball game. It’s under the same type of business as being a store inside of Amazon.
Once you hit good reviews and “amazons choice” then sales go through the roof. I remember doing the numbers a while back and was impressed.

And like everything on life, it’s not like you will add one song and suddenly get $2000 or something. It takes a while and a lot of tracks as these platforms, just like social media, deal with constant uploads, marketing, etc.
in other words, it’s an investment on your part to develop that business. Just like any other business, even if only via PRO only music libraries or Spotify or running a mechanic shop.


I’m not at all saying this is good btw.
Just being realistic about it.


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## Mr Greg G (May 24, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> You have one track that sells for $25 that gets bought 100 times a year (at different outlets) and then make about 100 of those types of tracks.


Not really sure about those numbers. What about having one track out of 100 that sells for $25 that gets bought 10 times accross all similar platforms?

Also what about when using pond5 or similar libraries, we are accepting the fact of being ripped off 50% of income? These fees are not just ridiculous, they're outrageous. But I get what you're saying, many people would rather put their pants down for a quick buck.


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## gsilbers (May 24, 2022)

Mr Greg G said:


> Not really sure about those numbers. What about having one track out of 100 that sells for $25 that gets bought 10 times accross all similar platforms?
> 
> Also what about when using pond5 or similar libraries, we are accepting the fact of being ripped off 50% of income? These fees are not just ridiculous, they're outrageous. But I get what you're saying, many people would rather put their pants down for a quick buck.


You get one of those tracks. Then have another 250 tracks that might get more sales. Some less etc.
Im talking about making 2-4 tracks a day for a while. Again, its different type of music than you would listen here in our smal bubble of spitfire and cinesample demo tracks.

These platofrms used to have the download times but now are removed. The numbers for the top tracks where very big. Same as spotify where you see some guys making $4000 a month on spotify/apple music etc but mention thousands of tracks. Can you do 4 "Relaxing Piano" tracks a day? Sure... are there millions of these in spotify? yep. Do the algorithms favor certain artists? yep.

The fees could be good or bad depending ont he above. Same deal with being an amazon vendor. They take a lot but if you make it as the top seller of baby wipes then totally worth it. Its thousands of sales a week with 50 thousands of good reviews etc.

Its just a different type of world where everything needs to be placed in context. It will defenitly not work for many of us here at VI, but maybe it works for someone else as a side gig until they have enough tracks that itll be worth while.
But expecting that one track will generate enough for week to live from it is for example, not placing the whole thing in the proper context.

This is not mutually exclusive to the exploitation side of things. As i mentioned above, its only for those that make it with tons of tracks, game the system , pay for ads etc. So many will not make it. Which is imo, not very different than the old days of record labels or music library or composers for tv shows. There are tons of these folks who dont make it. Id say most poeple wont make it. Same here.

Also keep in mind as a sample library developer i also have to deal with 50% cut from places like loot audio, big fish audio etc. Just to place it on a "shelf" and doing jack to promote it. So i understand the sentiment. 

To me the solution would be for BMI to sue google to get youtyube to allow "PRO" style distribution where the uploader HAS to specify who the composer is so they get % of royalties. Since youtube now beats all broadcasters i feel that BMI and other PROS are dropping the ball big time.


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## Yellow Studio (May 24, 2022)

Sopris said:


> I just saw today I sold a track on pond 5, I had it listed at $129, I received $37.
> 
> This is just gross, straight up. Taking a 65 percent cut is just not on, I thought 50/50 was a lot. It makes you think why doesn't someone come along and build a better website and take say....2%? Let artists have the other 98%. I'm wondering if there's a better RF site to upload to, how's everyone out there been taking this?


50/50 is/was standard or lower everywhere what I know of, RF or not. The exception is Audiojungle exclusive where you can work your way up to 70%. Starts with 50%


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 25, 2022)

Sopris said:


> I just saw today I sold a track on pond 5, I had it listed at $129, I received $37.
> 
> This is just gross, straight up. Taking a 65 percent cut is just not on, I thought 50/50 was a lot. It makes you think why doesn't someone come along and build a better website and take say....2%? Let artists have the other 98%. I'm wondering if there's a better RF site to upload to, how's everyone out there been taking this?


I just recently pulled my catalog from Pond5, it’s highway robbery. We must also blame those who are taking advantage of the bargain bin prices. 

I’m in the process of trying Tune Bud, check it out.


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## Sopris (May 26, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I just recently pulled my catalog from Pond5, it’s highway robbery. We must also blame those who are taking advantage of the bargain bin prices.
> 
> I’m in the process of trying Tune Bud, check it out.


Thanks for the tip I'll have a look. 

This age old tale of people taking advantage of musicians must come to an end. Its a two way street too, we have to say no, if enough of us did things could change very quickly.


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## FrozenIcicle (May 29, 2022)

Someone bought a track for $129 on pond5? Damn, consider yourself lucky.


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## Zedcars (May 29, 2022)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Someone bought a track for $129 on pond5? Damn, consider yourself lucky.





Sopris said:


> I received $37.


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## FrozenIcicle (May 30, 2022)

Still, I sell my music at the lowest amount possible cause $37 is nice but it’s usually a once off


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## Alex Fraser (May 30, 2022)

It is what it is. Actually, being a composer in this field isn't as "low brow" as some think. I know the forum kind of champions music as an "art" - and it can be.

But how many of us realistically can compose at the rate that's required for this sort of work?

I promise you: Exporting a final mix and then _immediately _going File > New to compose another bit of music in the same style...four times a day..is a difficult thing to do.


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## Emanuel Fróes (Sep 4, 2022)

Sopris said:


> I just saw today I sold a track on pond 5, I had it listed at $129, I received $37.
> 
> This is just gross, straight up. Taking a 65 percent cut is just not on, I thought 50/50 was a lot. It makes you think why doesn't someone come along and build a better website and take say....2%? Let artists have the other 98%. I'm wondering if there's a better RF site to upload to, how's everyone out there been taking this?


it is meant to be for who sells frequently and passively. May I hear your track? YOu hit the right client! Well done


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## Emanuel Fróes (Sep 4, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> It is what it is. Actually, being a composer in this field isn't as "low brow" as some think. I know the forum kind of champions music as an "art" - and it can be.
> 
> But how many of us realistically can compose at the rate that's required for this sort of work?
> 
> I promise you: Exporting a final mix and then _immediately _going File > New to compose another bit of music in the same style...four times a day..is a difficult thing to do.


It has been my challenge. I am at 230 tracks, counting only few variations of files. The hardest part is loosing the sense of quality. My first uploads sound like memes for me now haha But later i got used, and tried to keep YOutube = Pond5 so much as i can. Because another stress was to see like "what is good music vs. what is Pond5 music" . Some things that misses context have to be interesting at least for instagram. BUt as one said there: maybe POnd5 is just for a few... ANd on Upwork you see: people hire many composers to do this in bulk. SO you have no competition more than doing like I try to do: just be a ACTUALLY a composer that probably sounds more exclusive, but in the style that someone needs. If you try to be to generic, the guy who pays 100 freelancers. from SOuth America at once (for 5$) wins in the search tab. But no one can for ex. fake real orchestral polyphony that has an up-to-date language and more than 3000$ in samples; and some buyers will perceive the feeling of "something there". At the end, everyone "senses" real orchestral music for example. BUt the same applies for heavy metal or something else: if you are not generic you stand out, although it may take more time to appear in the search results. *Key to this kind of practice is only this: it has to be easy for you to compose and have ideas AND finish them in a good mix (...) If you have this feeling of recording every idea you improvise before you forget, than this is for you.*

I can´t give the final word. ANd think some people on YOutube sound like fake gurus in this regard. I am there not because "i made it" (what is unfortunely not true yet....) but because selling some harpschord atonal track as a starter was more than surprising and encouraging ; ) And because it developed me a lot regarding experimenting things. I don´t do the same thing over and over again, i believe there are a lot of possibilities worthwhile being sold, principally in games.

And the horror genre will teach you the most how infinite music today is.

But who knows? ANy experienced POnd5 composer is more than welcome to share some tips. My first sell came after me changing titles...and after using templates i got stuck like forever (?!!!)


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## AceAudioHQ (Sep 5, 2022)

Pond5 is at the low end of stock music libraries, they don't pay much, they are very saturated since they more often accept your track than not. They do have the traffic though, but the money is more at subscription libraries at the moment, like Artlist and Motion Array, though, there you can only dream of the 35% Pond5 is paying, you sell by volume and might get from 10 cents to 80 cents per download. At Motion Array you start from 10% and get a bigger cut the more downloads you get, max at 40%


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## TonalDynamics (Sep 5, 2022)

Sopris said:


> Thanks for the tip I'll have a look.
> 
> This age old tale of people taking advantage of musicians must come to an end. Its a two way street too, we have to say no, if enough of us did things could change very quickly.


Hear hear.

But, I think what they are _really_ taking advantage of, is the fact that artistes (and most creatives in general) hate the business side of things so much they are willing to get abused a bit just to not have to deal with it.


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## Yellow Studio (Sep 6, 2022)

Everyone can do what they want, but this is what I have done regarding Pond5. I deleted over 100 tracks in my catalog a week after they introduced the subscription model and haven't uploaded anything since the beginning of May. I hope that when they analyze their business after a year, they will come to the conclusion that they are losing both money and composers on this subscription model.


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## Baktus (Sep 6, 2022)

0.88 $ is what you get from pond5 for a sold licence, no matter what price you have listed. Its the 35% from 2,50$, since they sell now 10 songs for 25$. 
I also took all my tracks off.


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## AceAudioHQ (Sep 6, 2022)

Baktus said:


> 0.88 $ is what you get from pond5 for a sold licence, no matter what price you have listed. Its the 35% from 2,50$, since they sell now 10 songs for 25$.


But that’s way better compared to what most subscription libraries pay, pond5 has a 10 track limit per month, most others are unlimited so you can download a million tracks for the same price if you wish, for example depositphotos paid me 1c per download for three tracks, and 5c for one track, my last year’s total was 8 cents.


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## mscp (Sep 6, 2022)

first mistake: giving stock libraries your time and effort.
value yourself.


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## tsk (Sep 7, 2022)

AceAudioHQ said:


> Pond5 is at the low end of stock music libraries, they don't pay much, they are very saturated since they more often accept your track than not. They do have the traffic though, but the money is more at subscription libraries at the moment, like Artlist and Motion Array, though, there you can only dream of the 35% Pond5 is paying, you sell by volume and might get from 10 cents to 80 cents per download. At Motion Array you start from 10% and get a bigger cut the more downloads you get, max at 40%


This isn't meant as an attack on you, but I wanted to say:

The simple fact that a composer says, "the money is more at subscription libraries at the moment", reflects just how far this industry of production music has fallen.

I remember the days when subscription models didn't exist, then the days when libraries said they wouldn't do that and suggested those doing so should stop devaluing music, then the days when some libraries started doing it and taking advantage of naive composers, and now here we are...

If you're getting 10 cents for a license download, and that license goes on a platform where you never see any broadcast royalties or just a few cents, then I guess my question is, why even bother? Why not just make music you really like and release it for people to listen to while you keep all the rights?

Why spend thousands on equipment and virtual libraries to make 10 cents a download?


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## dohm (Sep 7, 2022)

The first time I sold a license on AJ many years ago, it was exciting and it motivated me to write more music. After some time, it felt better to just share a song with friends on soundcloud rather than get 35% of $8 minus additional fees. It was not even worth the effort/time to add the watermark audio into the logic session. Now, I only focus on exclusive libraries or music for enjoyment.

As a society we have nurtured a business culture that only seeks optimal efficiency at extracting money from people in order to achieve the singular goal of maximum profits/returns. Unfortunately, that goal does not provide enough meaning for humans to be satisfied and happy.


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## TonalDynamics (Sep 8, 2022)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Still, I sell my music at the lowest amount possible cause $37 is nice but it’s usually a once off


This seems... counterproductive.


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## AceAudioHQ (Sep 8, 2022)

tsk said:


> If you're getting 10 cents for a license download, and that license goes on a platform where you never see any broadcast royalties or just a few cents, then I guess my question is, why even bother?


Usually, if it's not played on the radio or tv where you'd get performance royalties, there is content id where I will get my money from


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## Mr Greg G (Sep 8, 2022)

AceAudioHQ said:


> Usually, if it's not played on the radio or tv where you'd get performance royalties, there is content id where I will get my money from


But there should not be Content ID in use if your customers bought a license?!


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## AceAudioHQ (Sep 8, 2022)

Mr Greg G said:


> But there should not be Content ID in use if your customers bought a license?!


Lots of people don't report their license and just let the ads run, also most people don't even have the numbers to monetize their videos. also many people use tracks illegally without a license


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## FrozenIcicle (Sep 8, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> This seems... counterproductive.


10 sales at $5 = $50
1 sale at $37 = $37


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## tsk (Sep 8, 2022)

FrozenIcicle said:


> 10 sales at $5 = $50
> 1 sale at $37 = $37


1,000,000 sales at $0.01 = $10,000
1 sale at $37 = $37

Hey you should tell Microsoft to sell Halo at $0.01 because they can make so much more money. I mean it's a digital product after all so who cares, right? And there's an unlimited amount of customers, right?

Race to the bottom?


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## tsk (Sep 8, 2022)

AceAudioHQ said:


> Lots of people don't report their license and just let the ads run, also most people don't even have the numbers to monetize their videos. also many people use tracks illegally without a license


So you're earning Adrev on videos where the creator properly licensed your music? And they're ok with ads being shown on their video for you to earn money?


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## FrozenIcicle (Sep 8, 2022)

tsk said:


> 1,000,000 sales at $0.01 = $10,000
> 1 sale at $37 = $37
> 
> Hey you should tell Microsoft to sell Halo at $0.01 because they can make so much more money. I mean it's a digital product after all so who cares, right? And there's an unlimited amount of customers, right?
> ...


How much money have you made mate? What's your business strategy on a website that is flooded with shit "halo" games and you want a customer to find your "halo"?


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## AceAudioHQ (Sep 8, 2022)

tsk said:


> So you're earning Adrev on videos where the creator properly licensed your music? And they're ok with ads being shown on their video for you to earn money?


Some people act pretty slow on copyright notices so I might get monetization for some weeks and then the video disappears from next month’s stats on Identifyy. Some people who can’t monetize their own videos don’t seem to mind or notice that there’s an ad. But also there are lots of people using music illegally


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## AceAudioHQ (Sep 8, 2022)

I’m personally interested in the paycheck at the end of the month, I don’t care if the same money comes from 1 or 500 tracks sold/downloaded. there are always more customers to download it 500 times next month, and my music is used more, the more exposure bucks and content id money I get, also when more people hear the music, they might want to use it also, and it’s more likely to happen if it’s on 500 youtube videos instead of 1


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## TonalDynamics (Sep 8, 2022)

tsk said:


> 1,000,000 sales at $0.01 = $10,000
> 1 sale at $37 = $37
> 
> Hey you should tell Microsoft to sell Halo at $0.01 because they can make so much more money. I mean it's a digital product after all so who cares, right? And there's an unlimited amount of customers, right?
> ...


Math is hard for some of these guys... or maybe they heard someone say 'less is more!' one time, and took it literally? 😬

But in all seriousness, this platform sounds like it's hopeless regardless of what you're charging for the tracks, sounds like the devs are just scoundrels angling for hapless musicians to exploit.


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## tsk (Sep 8, 2022)

FrozenIcicle said:


> How much money have you made mate? What's your business strategy on a website that is flooded with shit "halo" games and you want a customer to find your "halo"?


My strategy is to not be on the website in the first place. Don't feed these exploitative websites where the owners get rich and you get nothing.


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## tsk (Sep 8, 2022)

AceAudioHQ said:


> Some people act pretty slow on copyright notices so I might get monetization for some weeks and then the video disappears from next month’s stats on Identifyy. Some people who can’t monetize their own videos don’t seem to mind or notice that there’s an ad. But also there are lots of people using music illegally


So I guess the answer to the first question is "yes", you are earning Adrev from videos where the video creator has licensed your music correctly. That is interesting and slightly strange to me. Feels like eventually they won't be too happy about an ad playing before their video, but who knows.


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## WhiteNoiz (Sep 9, 2022)

tsk said:


> That is interesting and slightly strange to me. Feels like eventually they won't be too happy about an ad playing before their video, but who knows.


I think it's more that it's just a pita to deal with, along with things like:
- Having to dox yourself to fight claims (as mentioned, it's a hassle to go through the process, along with YT clearly giving the upper hand to copyright holders; or supposed copyrighted holders, lol)
- in a lot of cases there's not much money involved (or the channel doesn't really rely on the ads or have the size to make big sums)
- AdBlock 
- people just not giving a fuck (unless they sense there might be serious money involved, I guess)

So, in a sense and to a degree, you can fly under the radar as a claimant.


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## AceAudioHQ (Sep 9, 2022)

tsk said:


> So I guess the answer to the first question is "yes", you are earning Adrev from videos where the video creator has licensed your music correctly. That is interesting and slightly strange to me. Feels like eventually they won't be too happy about an ad playing before their video, but who knows.


It’s out of my hands though, and only depends on how fast they can stop lazing and do something about it, I don’t mind if it takes a while. It’s usually not a lot of money unless the video gets lots of views, those people usually contact the library pretty fast since it’s their livelyhood and not just a hobby.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 12, 2022)

Oh boy! Pond5 is really not worth it. Sales are very slow, peanuts collected at the end of each year and finally closed my account 2 yrs ago when they started to take high cut.


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## dohm (Oct 4, 2022)

I have completely removed all my tracks from AJ and the Pond. Feels good. However, I'm sure entropy will quickly fill the tiny void I left on those platforms.


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