# Mike Verta say’s, “Transcribe, Transcribe, Transcribe” … “Rey’s Theme”



## wbacer (Apr 30, 2016)

If you’ve ever taken an online class from Mike Verta, he always says that one of the best ways to learn composition and orchestration is to transcribe a piece by ear, then get the score and see how well you did. What started out as a transcription exercise, turned into an exercise in library selection, midi editing and mixing. The majority of what I learned, I don’t think you can get out of a book. Next steps…take what I learned and apply it to my own compositions and keep transcribing.


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## streetster (Apr 30, 2016)

wbacer said:


> If you’ve ever taken an online class from Mike Verta, he always says that one of the best ways to learn composition and orchestration is to transcribe a piece by ear, then get the score and see how well you did. What started out as a transcription exercise, turned into an exercise in library selection, midi editing and mixing. The majority of what I learned, I don’t think you can get out of a book. Next steps…take what I learned and apply it to my own compositions and keep transcribing.



Yep you can learn a hell of a lot from transcription. Theres an art in how to transcribe in itself too. The question is how often do you do it (transcription that is )?


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## InLight-Tone (Apr 30, 2016)

streetster said:


> Yep you can learn a hell of a lot from transcription. Theres an art in how to transcribe in itself too. The question is how often do you do it (transcription that is )?



Verta says everyday, I have yet to start. I used to transcribe constantly back in the 80's but not this round...


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## wbacer (Apr 30, 2016)

streetster said:


> Yep you can learn a hell of a lot from transcription. Theres an art in how to transcribe in itself too. The question is how often do you do it (transcription that is )?


Not often enough.
It's a lot of work but at least for me, its' well worth the effort.


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## tack (Apr 30, 2016)

Very passable transcription to these ears! As Mike would also say, you are being let down by your samples_ -- _but how could it be any other way with a John Williams cue. In fact, under those circumstances, the samples didn't fall apart _quite _as utterly as I might have expected.


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## Pasticcio (May 1, 2016)

Good job! Did you get the Hal Leonard deluxe score?


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## wbacer (May 1, 2016)

Pasticcio said:


> Good job! Did you get the Hal Leonard deluxe score?


Thanks, John Williams wrote an amazing piece.
Yes, the Hal Leonard deluxe score, they do a great job laying out their scores, very easy to read.


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## chrysshawk (May 1, 2016)

Nice stuff! I have the same exact task next on my list. Just need to finish my tropical house projects first


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## mwarsell (Nov 21, 2016)

Digging up this thread...by transcribing does one mean to do it _exactly_ like in notation? Or just what instruments are playing? Like in a sketch?


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## Farkle (Nov 21, 2016)

For me, when I transcribe, I do a "reduced orchestral score". Where I write what is going on, but I do it in 3-5 staves, and indicate who is playing what line. So, I guess it's a sketch? Here's one I did from To Kill a Mockingbird. You can see how I do it (or did it 10 years ago, I've improved notation since then). 

https://app.box.com/s/kr5pe1q9fnie2vxfpcqvewzv52h0qy10


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## Mike Fox (Nov 21, 2016)

This might be a really dumb question, but how well do you need to read music before you can go back and check your work?


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## jononotbono (Nov 21, 2016)

I've been wondering about this myself. Is the important thing here to learn what something is going on by ear? If so, could it be of a similar benefit to work out what instruments are actually playing and then work out the parts via a Piano and then perhaps try to mock it up with Samples? Hearing a piece of music and then writing it down via manuscript paper, well, I'm so far away from that, that I don't even know if I am ever going to be able to.

I hear of so many people claiming that they can hear music and instantly be able to write it out onto paper. This tells me a lot of people have perfect pitch and I was under the impression that not many people on Planet Earth have perfect pitch. Surely they have to have an instrument to work out the parts? I know Morricone doesn't even need a Piano when he writes but this is of the rarest of cases! 

I want to be able to analyse scores to learn what is going on but that's taking so much time as well.


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## Jdiggity1 (Nov 21, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> I've been wondering about this myself. Is the important thing here to learn what something is going on by ear? If so, could it be of a similar benefit to work out what instruments are actually playing and then work out the parts via a Piano and then perhaps try to mock it up with Samples? Hearing a piece of music and then writing it down via manuscript paper, well, I'm so far away from that, that I don't even know if I am ever going to be able to.
> 
> I hear of so many people claiming that they can hear music and instantly be able to write it out onto paper. This tells me a lot of people have perfect pitch and I was under the impression that not many people on Planet Earth have perfect pitch. Surely they have to have an instrument to work out the parts? I know Morricone doesn't even need a Piano when he writes but this is of the rarest of cases!
> 
> I want to be able to analyse scores to learn what is going on but that's taking so much time as well.



What you describe does not require perfect pitch, but more of a 'relative pitch' skillset. If you have developed relative pitch, you can hear and identify intervals, progressions, scales, etc. based on a reference point. Sometimes you might need to guess the first note if you do not have a reference, but from there, you can tell that the melody goes up a minor third, down a semitone, mixolydian scale up to the 13th, harmonies play diminished there, etc etc. It becomes less about pitch and more about the relationship between notes.

If you can identify something by ear and translate it into a mockup, then that is still essentially transcribing, and is just as beneficial. The point of transcribing is not to figure *what* notes were used, but *how* they are used. Doesn't matter if you think it's a G, Bb, or whatever, but if you can identify that it was the raised fourth that contributed to the feeling of child-like innocence, then job done. 
The added benefit to studying via mockup is that you can work on your production at the same time. Double whammy, as it were.
Highly encouraged.


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## jononotbono (Nov 21, 2016)

I'm going to start doing this. Funnily enough, I have just started learning intervals after spending past few months of Key Sigs. I'm going to download an Ear training app because what's the point in just being able to recognise intervals on a score and not be able to hear them! 

Now I just need to find a piece to work out.


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## jononotbono (Nov 21, 2016)

Also, what are people's thought's on taking a Notated Score and mocking it up with Samples? So instead of Ear training, Mock up via reading Scores. Surely it has benefits such as, practising how to read Notation, Playing in each part, hearing each instrument work with each other as it builds etc! Also, the midi tweaking necessary to make it sound good will, as you say"production", be very beneficial!


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## Jdiggity1 (Nov 21, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Also, what are people's thought's on taking a Notated Score and mocking it up with Samples? So instead of Ear training, Mock up via reading Scores. Surely it has benefits such as, practising how to read Notation, Playing in each part, hearing each instrument work with each other as it builds etc! Also, the midi tweaking necessary to make it sound good will, as you say"production", be very beneficial!


Definitely!
More beneficial than that new sample library you've been eyeing!


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## jononotbono (Nov 21, 2016)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Definitely!
> More beneficial than that new sample library you've been eyeing!



What about doing a mock up AND with a new library (or 2)? Come on man! It's Black Friday!


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## mverta (Nov 21, 2016)

Oy...  Okay, I just made you guys a video on everything you need to know about transcribing... wonder twin powers activate!


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## mwarsell (Nov 21, 2016)

At the moment I don't have the physical space nor time to do it like Mike advises, currently my music education relies on listening to scores whilst commuting. Is following a score along while listening good? Well, I know it's good, but compared to transcribing, how beneficial is it?


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## mverta (Nov 21, 2016)

That's all fine and good and won't hurt, but when we actually sit down to do anything we'll still be at Square One. We can read about sex and watch porn all day long but until we're actually in it, it could not be said that we know what we're doing.


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## mwarsell (Nov 21, 2016)

Thank you for that video! Wow. Next, what about a clip on live transcribing? 

Edit: Mike, you seem to adore Ravel. I agree. I was absolutely awestruck when I first opened Daphne and listened to it. I had no idea some instruments could play like that.


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## jononotbono (Nov 22, 2016)

Man, thanks for this! The internet is such a wonderful thing. Certainly clears up any thoughts I had and I must start transcribing music.


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 22, 2016)

mikefox789 said:


> This might be a really dumb question, but how well do you need to read music before you can go back and check your work?



Learn to read music gents. It'll open up the world of music. I learnt to read music before I touched a musical instrument. The two go to together and yes, there are some great players and musicians that cannot read music. But being able to read music is better.


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## d.healey (Nov 22, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> At the moment I don't have the physical space nor time to do it like Mike advises, currently my music education relies on listening to scores whilst commuting. Is following a score along while listening good? Well, I know it's good, but compared to transcribing, how beneficial is it?


Get a keyboard app on your phone, plug your headphones into your phone, now transcribe while you commute.


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## mwarsell (Nov 22, 2016)

"Get a keyboard app on your phone, plug your headphones into your phone, now transcribe while you commute"

Err....not sure how that'd work. I have an ipad and have keyboard apps on that, but not sure how I'd do that. Hmm.


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## SillyMidOn (Nov 22, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> "Get a keyboard app on your phone, plug your headphones into your phone, now transcribe while you commute"
> 
> Err....not sure how that'd work. I have an ipad and have keyboard apps on that, but not sure how I'd do that. Hmm.


You don't need a keyboard app. All you need is your ears, a pencil, rubber and some manuscript paper. Seriously. Try transcribing without an instrument near you, it is very hard, but sooooo good for you. Start with something simple. Could even be a nursery rhyme you have in your head. Can you write it down whilst on the tube/bus/tram on some manuscript paper? [Just please don't try and to if if you drive to work... ] Then go home and see if you made any mistakes by checking on an instrument. Steep learning curve - but you will improve so much. And, shock and horror, it's the sort of thing you train when you go to (a decent) music college.

OR, take a simple tune and arrange it for 4 voices/string quartet whatever, without an instrument near by. Again, great training.


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## euanatkinson (Nov 22, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> I've been wondering about this myself. Is the important thing here to learn what something is going on by ear? If so, could it be of a similar benefit to work out what instruments are actually playing and then work out the parts via a Piano and then perhaps try to mock it up with Samples? Hearing a piece of music and then writing it down via manuscript paper, well, I'm so far away from that, that I don't even know if I am ever going to be able to.
> 
> I hear of so many people claiming that they can hear music and instantly be able to write it out onto paper. This tells me a lot of people have perfect pitch and I was under the impression that not many people on Planet Earth have perfect pitch. Surely they have to have an instrument to work out the parts? I know Morricone doesn't even need a Piano when he writes but this is of the rarest of cases!
> 
> I want to be able to analyse scores to learn what is going on but that's taking so much time as well.


I think it requires good relative pitch but not perfect pitch, once you know the starting key you can base everything off that, learning intervals, recognising chord changes and learning the common doublings would then help you fill out the rest of the texture


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## jononotbono (Nov 22, 2016)

Yeah, I'm currently learning Intervals. Then I am going to learn the different types of Chords. One thing at a daunting time I guess.


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## SillyMidOn (Nov 22, 2016)

euanatkinson said:


> I think it requires good relative pitch but not perfect pitch, once you know the starting key you can base everything off that, learning intervals, recognising chord changes and learning the common doublings would then help you fill out the rest of the texture


Precisely


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## SillyMidOn (Nov 22, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Yeah, I'm currently learning Intervals. Then I am going to learn the different types of Chords. One thing at a daunting time I guess.


Good luck! It's not that daunting though.


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## jononotbono (Nov 22, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> Good luck! It's not that daunting though.



I'm at a point where I want to be able to modulate anywhere and due to my lack of knowledge I can't. Well, I can, I sit playing a Keyboard/Guitar/whatever for hours and hours and eventually find that right note I was looking for. I would like to speed this process up.


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 22, 2016)

When you're learning to play a new instrument, or any instrument from scratch, what normally happens is you reach plateaus. You can find yourself stuck on a plateau for ages sometimes and wonder if you're ever going to go forwards and upwards again.
But through formal teaching, this area of redundancy is greatly lessened.

This is why you hear about players staying the same for 20 years. It's not because they're incapable of improvement. It's because they haven't been steered into fresh waters by formal education.

I could take out your appendix with a knife and fork and you would probably die. Surgeons, on the other hand, are constantly trained, hence the expression ' surgeons practice ' and therefore never get stuck on a plateau. And you would probably live as an added bonus.

So practice playing and writing and get steeped in training is my advice.


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## Karma (Nov 22, 2016)

Good ol' Mike. If I ever come to LA I'll buy you a beer...

...or some Whiskey!

EDIT: And yes, learn to read music. My old piano teacher once told me that he taught himself in 2 weeks. At the time I thought "no way, that's impossible", but it turns out I ended up doing the exact same thing a few months later. If you set your mind to it you'll be pleasantly surprised.


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## mwarsell (Nov 23, 2016)

What if one studies a score, listens to the same score and makes notes, (like I used to do)? E.g. "Ok it seems that woodwinds state the melody here, flutes on top, clarinets doubling in octaves. After the initial statement bassoons and celli join to give it some bass..."

Is this still inferior to transcribing? Does the porn analogy still apply?


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## jononotbono (Nov 23, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> Does the porn analogy still apply?



I don't wanna sound like some Mike fanboy, but that is a fantastic analogy.


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## SillyMidOn (Nov 23, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> I'm at a point where I want to be able to modulate anywhere and due to my lack of knowledge I can't. Well, I can, I sit playing a Keyboard/Guitar/whatever for hours and hours and eventually find that right note I was looking for. I would like to speed this process up.


Ah, well there is a simple formula that you can use to modulate anywhere. If the keys are sonically far apart you may need to stick some chords in front of the modulation, and there might be many other ways of modulating, but it does work, and goes thus:

Whatever key you modulate to, stick a II- V(7) in front of. Let's say we are in C major and want to get to Eb major.

Actually just a quick recap on Roman numerals/chords, in case anyone is unfamiliar. Using the C major scale we get the following chords:

C D- E- F G A- Bdim
I II- III- IV V VI- VIIdim

So in Eb Major we get the following:

Eb F- G- Ab Bb C- Ddim
I II- III- IV V VI- VIIdim

So if we are on C major and want to modulate to Eb, we need to find the II- V in Eb to get there. Looking at the chart above that means F- Bb.

So the whole sequence would go

C F- Bb Eb

Jazz musician use these II- V I sequences all the time, you often get entire sequences of just II- V, and no I at all, just strung together (so as you don't get to the I, the tonic, the "home chord", there is never any proper resolution).

Hope that helps!


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## SillyMidOn (Nov 23, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> What if one studies a score, listens to the same score and makes notes, (like I used to do)? E.g. "Ok it seems that woodwinds state the melody here, flutes on top, clarinets doubling in octaves. After the initial statement bassoons and celli join to give it some bass..."
> 
> Is this still inferior to transcribing? Does the porn analogy still apply?


That would be score analysis, and is very useful. I used to keep a sketchbook, where I used to jot down bits of orchestration I really liked, in terms of how the instruments used in the piece are mapped out across the orchestra (voiced), esp if it gave you an interesting texture.


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## jononotbono (Nov 23, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> Ah, well there is a simple formula that you can use to modulate anywhere. If the keys are sonically far apart you may need to stick some chords in front of the modulation, and there might be many other ways of modulating, but it does work, and goes thus:
> 
> Whatever key you modulate to, stick a II- V(7) in front of. Let's say we are in C major and want to get to Eb major.
> 
> ...



Thanks! I'll have to try this out later! All help like this is welcome!


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## jononotbono (Nov 23, 2016)

I think I am going to try and do Mike's Galaxy quest assignment. I need to find the right video/piece and then get cracking on it over the next few weeks. Might take me a long time though.


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## SillyMidOn (Nov 23, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> I think I am going to try and do Mike's Galaxy quest assignment. I need to find the right video/piece and then get cracking on it over the next few weeks. Might take me a long time though.


It would of course be really useful to know all your chords in all major scales for a start. I've thrown this together quickly in Sibelius.

Hope it helps.

PDF in all major keys:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyembqvtcbum9jw/CHORDS - Chords.pdf?dl=0

{dang, how do you upload a pdf to vi-control?}


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## jononotbono (Nov 23, 2016)

Ok maybe I shouldn't jump the gun yet. I'll keep learning my intervals as they are always the same on any stage/staff and vital. Then it's to learn chords. Then...


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## mverta (Nov 23, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Ok maybe I shouldn't jump the gun yet. I'll keep learning my intervals as they are always the same on any stage/staff and vital. Then it's to learn chords. Then...


 Absolutely 10000% disagree. Totally unnecessary. Jump in on the Galaxy Quest challenge asap.

Trust me.

_Mike


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## mwarsell (Nov 23, 2016)

What is the Galaxy Quest challenge?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 23, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> What is the Galaxy Quest challenge?



It is a challenge to transcribe the Galaxy Quest Maintheme. You can do it, send Mr. Verta your rendition and you get access to the Galaxy Quest Transcribing Class.

I did transribe today a few bars from this. Probably some wrong notes and still no shakers, I don´t care. Makes fun and strengen your musical muscles


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## d.healey (Nov 23, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> What is the Galaxy Quest challenge?


http://www.vi-control.net/community...30-off-all-classes.27885/page-43#post-3819170


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## wbacer (Nov 23, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> Ah, well there is a simple formula that you can use to modulate anywhere. If the keys are sonically far apart you may need to stick some chords in front of the modulation, and there might be many other ways of modulating, but it does work, and goes thus:
> 
> Whatever key you modulate to, stick a II- V(7) in front of. Let's say we are in C major and want to get to Eb major.
> 
> ...


All of the above is correct but actually all you need is the V or V7 chord. The ii minor extends the chord sequence but it's not really necessary.


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## wbacer (Nov 23, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> I think I am going to try and do Mike's Galaxy quest assignment. I need to find the right video/piece and then get cracking on it over the next few weeks. Might take me a long time though.


Go for it, the Galaxy Quest Challenge is great. I submitted a transcription and attended the live broadcast. Learned a lot. It definitely jump started my transcription quest.


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## jononotbono (Nov 23, 2016)

mverta said:


> Absolutely 10000% disagree. Totally unnecessary. Jump in on the Galaxy Quest challenge asap.
> 
> Trust me.
> 
> _Mike



Ok. I shall report back.


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## mwarsell (Nov 23, 2016)

I think that knowing music theory at least facilitates communication. If someone says that a diminished 7 is a real gloomy chord, I think it helps to know what is talked about


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## SillyMidOn (Nov 23, 2016)

wbacer said:


> All of the above is correct but actually all you need is the V or V7 chord. The ii minor extends the chord sequence but it's not really necessary.


True, but it helps "cement it", and if you can do a II- V into a new key, you know how to do a V into a new key as well .


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 23, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> I think that knowing music theory at least facilitates communication. If someone says that a diminished 7 is a real gloomy chord, I think it helps to know what is talked about



Sure nomenclatur can help to know, sort and put things into the closet, but still beware of going by a too much "head controlled writing". In my opinion the best things happen when you leave the theory mostly out of the game and start using your instincts, which is only possible to lead to great results in case you work hard and merciless over many many many years. And a big part of gaining control in that is to transcribe music you like because it cements that process in your head because you are "doing" it by trial and error and over the time you get an understanding why things work and others not. And that´s for me at least the bottom line.


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## wbacer (Nov 23, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> True, but it helps "cement it", and if you can do a II- V into a new key, you know how to do a V into a new key as well .


Yup, both work.


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## spaunsam7 (Nov 23, 2016)

I'm a jazz drummer who crossed over to composing a few years back and during my drumming career I learned more from transcribing Vinnie Colaiuta, Dave Weckl, Jack Dejohnette etc. in a few months than years and years of private lessons and college. Don't get me wrong, learning how to read books and charts helped me understand everything that was going on better as oppose to not knowing how to read but nothing beats transcribing what you actually like than some exercise out of a book that you are gonna forget 5 mins after you play it.


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## NoamL (Nov 23, 2016)

Gonna toot my own horn a bit... I had a dream a couple nights ago about a composer education tool, and this thread is as good a place as any to ask if there would be a market for it. Since you are all interested in learning through transcription!

I do agree with Mike that the best way to learn is to teach yourself. This idea would ONLY be a supplement to that. It comes from my own frustration at doing score study, where even after reading through _lots_ of scores I still find myself with questions like "What would X + Y sound like?" and don't have an example at my fingertips that I can _*listen*_ to.

So this idea solves that problem.

Basically the idea is a *Cinematic Orchestration Lookup Online Resource (COLOR)* that takes some grunt work out of learning orchestral color, by using modern technology (databases, websites & streaming video).

basically: imagine Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov's _*Principles Of Orchestration*_, but on _meth._

The database would consist of comprehensively datamined examples of orchestral colors in traditional filmscores. The front end of *COLOR* would be a website where you can check and uncheck a bunch of dialogs to sift through the database and return musical examples that exactly fit a specified query. Like asking a librarian to get you a book. COLOR would eventually have hundreds or even thousands of specifically tagged examples at your fingertips.

That's a little hard to grasp so let me walk you through an example.

You have a melody and you are wondering how to orchestrate it:







Maybe cellos? How exactly would adding bassoons to the cellos change the tone? How about just winds, maybe bassoons in unison with horns? Would that sound muddy?

So you go to the website, which has three sets of dialog boxes.

The first dialog box is *Instruments*. You tick the boxes for "Horn" and "Bassoon."

The second dialog box is *Center Of Gravity*. This is just a way of systematizing the idea of ranges. It would look like this:






Your melody has a Tenor center of gravity so you'd check that box.

The last dialog box is *Material*, for this one you check "Melody."

You click *GO* and the COLOR does its thing and returns a bunch of citations.

One of them looks like this:

*Instruments: *2 bassoons (unison) 2 horns.
*COG:* Tenor.
*Material:* Melody.
*Dynamic:* Mezzo-piano.

That looks promising so you click it.

And - whabam! - you're listening to a piece of music:



Just by listening to an example you learn a lot:

At this range the horn predominates and absorbs the bassoon sound.

The sound combo is dark & slightly ominous. If you give the horns accent marks even at _mp_ there will be some nice edge on the sound.

It's now easier to go back to your melody at the piano and _imagine_ how it will sound with horns+bassoons. You could learn all this from a book but now you're _*listening*_ to it. Also, each of the examples can give you inspiration for what kinds of orchestration to use to accompany & contrast your melodic colors.

If I did this project it would probably start in the New Year and it would be on Patreon since I'd be doing it in my free time. Basically the more monthly subscriptions I got the more examples I'd be able to transcribe, data-tag and enter into the database each week.


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## wbacer (Nov 23, 2016)

NoamL said:


> Gonna toot my own horn a bit... I had a dream a couple nights ago about a composer education tool, and this thread is as good a place as any to ask if there would be a market for it. Since you are all interested in learning through transcription!
> 
> I do agree with Mike that the best way to learn is to teach yourself. This idea would ONLY be a supplement to that. It comes from my own frustration at doing score study, where even after reading through _lots_ of scores I still find myself with questions like "What would X + Y sound like?" and don't have an example at my fingertips that I can _*listen*_ to.
> 
> ...



I like the idea. Sounds like a lot of work but worth pursuing. I think that as technology and AI become more sophisticated, resources similar to this are going to become part of the composers toolbox.


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## douggibson (Nov 24, 2016)

@NoamL

While I think the spirit of the idea is nice, and could see it being something you make money from (a good thing !) 
I do not see any advantages for learning. If the entrepreneur passion is there for you, then by all means go for it !

I simply have a philosophical bias against things like this. A few reasons.

1) There are already so many orchestration resources out there that are similar. 
Off the top of my head: Gardner Read Thesaurus of Orchestral Devices, lists dozens of scores for any combination in the orchestra. Sam Adler's book, and others, include CD's DVD's. The spectrotone chart shows all the ranges and gravity in a single picture. 

2)It's actually better for learning to do the lifting yourself. Every composer/orchestrator should have a catalogue like you mentioned, completed by them alone. 

To give an analogy: In weight lifting, free weights are the best as they give the most resistance. The machines help with the lifting and thus produce less effective results. If you ever read (not that this is a literary masterpiece) Arnold Schwarzenegger's book he talks about his practice. One of the routines he did was: take an axe, cut down a tree and then alternate lifting the tree with lifting rocks. Pure caveman. Look at his results vs. the people I see in NYC all the time who have a latte, magazine, flipping channels on the tv, looking at their phone etc. 

We have more "ear-training" apps then ever before. We have more people with full access to orchestral libraries to try out any combination with a few clicks. Are we seeing a new heights in pitch recognition and orchestration brilliance ? Debatable most likely. 


3) Your "mistakes" can have valuable learnings. Particularly with transcribing if you are searching for a chord or texture and you play something on the piano that is "wrong" but sounds totally cool.....use it ! If you are professionally doing a take down, then of course you have to get it right. But if it is just for you and learning, your "mistakes" are just a shitty branding of the word variation. 

For my own students I give them a film cue from Vertigo. I give them only piano score, and mp3. 
The first week all they are to do is mark what they think could be a good choice. Next I give them an mp3 of the orchestral score, in which they mark up what instruments they are hearing. Finally the real score. 

No one ever gets it "right" because its Bernard hermann, and they don't think about bass flute. Totally fine. I wouldn't even care if they nailed it 100%. The whole point is that orchestration is as much an art as a science. 
Not simply "what was that" but "What could have been".


One last point, and I now have to apologize on why I am even writing this. I certainly did not mean to be negative and I do think it could make you $. 

The last point, is in partnership with transcribing the practice of singing and memorizing what you transcribe will really seal it in. I have done numerous professional transcriptions for people, and honestly I can barely recall half of them. I completed the gig, client was happy, and never thought about the shitty thing I had to notate. 

However, those passages that I really liked, used solfegge, did an analysis of, and played on the piano (when not a really complex orchestral texture that does not translate) and additionally transposed to at least 3 different keys and improvised on. Those stick. They also come back into my memory much faster. 

Ok..... no more Vi-control posting at 1 am. Rambling............ ahhh!


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## all ears (Nov 24, 2016)

Interesting thread with many good comments. I'd like to add a question to the more experienced people here:
How would you rate the value of transcribing pieces (for which no score is available), right into Sibelius? The overall goal being to learn about orchestration.

The reason why I ask is: I have started doing this a while ago, and it's among the most satisfying things I've done in ages because I get to work at great detail with some of the scores I most admire and have a chance to listen back to the transcription (using Noteperformer). I'm talking about orchestral pieces which I try to reconstruct in full detail. Of course, those scores are locked away and will never become public, or are lost. This means I cannot compare the written notes the original. But comparing the audio that comes out of Sibelius with the original recording goes a long way, I feel.

I just wonder whether this is somehow inferior in a pedagogical sense. It's so much fun, there's got to be a downside...


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## mverta (Nov 24, 2016)

For non dead-simple tunes, when your accuracy in transcribing pieces you DO have score access to surpasses 90%, then sure. Until then, you need the score, absolutely or it's (nearly) pointless.


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## SillyMidOn (Nov 24, 2016)

spaunsam7 said:


> I'm a jazz drummer who crossed over to composing a few years back and during my drumming career I learned more from transcribing Vinnie Colaiuta, Dave Weckl, Jack Dejohnette etc. in a few months than years and years of private lessons and college. Don't get me wrong, learning how to read books and charts helped me understand everything that was going on better as oppose to not knowing how to read but nothing beats transcribing what you actually like than some exercise out of a book that you are gonna forget 5 mins after you play it.


That's us jazz musicians - we *have* to transcribe as jazz is kept for posterity in recorded form (audio) being an art form of the 20 century, so in order to find out what's going on, you have to transcribe it, whereas classical music was originally of course kept for posterity in written (score) form, so you go to the score to study it. 

It is a real shame that all those many, many film music scores are neatly indexed just sitting in all those rooms in California, and no-one has access to them. I say make them available to the public!


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## Firpow (Nov 24, 2016)

Are there any good simple pieces any of you can recommend to start practicing transcribing? Preferrably something for which there is a score in the free domain of the Interwebs


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## mverta (Nov 24, 2016)

Yes take the Galaxy Quest transcription challenge noted above!


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## jononotbono (Nov 24, 2016)

d.healey said:


> http://www.vi-control.net/community...30-off-all-classes.27885/page-43#post-3819170



I'm away from home working till Saturday. Thanks for this. I'm itching to start on this assignment. Just listened to the link (Original Recording) and I thought "F**k". This is going to be a serious challenge.


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## chrysshawk (Nov 25, 2016)

Just do it, then you figure out how to do it afterwards. Speculating how to do it beforehand is just like Mike refers to in his metaphor...!


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## mverta (Nov 25, 2016)

Do your best; do what you can and send it to me and don't worry or over think it!


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## Scamper (Nov 27, 2016)

mverta said:


> Until then, you need the score, absolutely or it's (nearly) pointless.



That's really my main hurdle so far. I want to transcribe more, but either there aren't any scores available for music I'd like to get into or scores that are available are getting expensive quickly.

But sure, there are still the classics to get back to.


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## all ears (Nov 28, 2016)

Not sure if this is of interest, but here's a video of someone doing some form of transcription work (minus the "scription" part) from a James Newton Howard piece. Granted, this is not very detailed and the music is not terribly complex, but still quite impressive imho. 
Point is, a fair amount of analysis can be done without the score, but of course there's no doubt that having the original score to compare against is the ideal situation one should seek in the beginning.


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## Ashley Kampta (Nov 28, 2016)

@mverta This Galaxy Quest challenge looks interesting! If we do it, do we send you our transcribed score and the mock-up, or just the mock-up?


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## tack (Nov 28, 2016)

You know I fell down the Youtube rabbit hole on Rick Beato's videos. Has anyone seen this kid?



Mind completely blown. Imagine how fast you'd be able to transcribe with his ability. The value of training from birth I suppose.


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## wbacer (Nov 28, 2016)

tack said:


> You know I fell down the Youtube rabbit hole on Rick Beato's videos. Has anyone seen this kid?
> 
> 
> 
> Mind completely blown. Imagine how fast you'd be able to transcribe with his ability. The value of training from birth I suppose.



Amazing, if I could only roll back the clock...
The rest of Rick's videos are quiet amazing. Lots of good tips on Williams and other composer's styles. He has a pretty good ear himself. Ok, back down the Beato rabbit hole. So much for Black Friday...


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## mwarsell (Nov 30, 2016)

I finally began transcribing. While I commute by bus to work. Luckily, the bus is often rather empty. Printed and photocopied a ton of blank orchestral sheet paper, got a lot of pencils and eraser. Lately, I've been in awe of Mendelssohn's music. Decided to do this with his 4th symphony. It will take ages to do this...but I'm so motivated now that I finally began. I knew that the work goes in A-major and starts with 6/8. Actually, I would have looked it up beforehand to get even some help. First 1,5 bars done now. It's so hard but rewarding. For example I totally misheard the very first string chord which was actually a pizz. I thought I heard a quietly played, short arco. And I had no idea that the two horns also played with the woods.


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## SillyMidOn (Nov 30, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> I finally began transcribing. While I commute by bus to work. Luckily, the bus is often rather empty. Printed and photocopied a ton of blank orchestral sheet paper, got a lot of pencils and eraser. Lately, I've been in awe of Mendelssohn's music. Decided to do this with his 4th symphony. It will take ages to do this...but I'm so motivated now that I finally began. I knew that the work goes in A-major and starts with 6/8. Actually, I would have looked it up beforehand to get even some help. First 1,5 bars done now. It's so hard but rewarding. For example I totally misheard the very first string chord which was actually a pizz. I thought I heard a quietly played, short arco. And I had no idea that the two horns also played with the woods.


Well done !


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## Sekkle (Dec 1, 2016)

Thanks for the video Mike, awesome as always.

I was wondering if it's better to transcribe in the studio with my midi keyboard and a notation program like sibelius/dorico, or at the piano with paper. I have never actually used any notation program and it's something I really want to get some basic skills at as I find myself recording more live players. I also find writing anything on paper to be really difficult as I haven't written anything by hand properly since I was in school and have really lost the art. Whenever I try writing text notes for example it just becomes such a mess probably because I have been using a word processor for so long, and the thought of writing music on paper is kind of daunting.

I want to go about this in the best possible way and if doing it on paper would be considered a better way to imprint the process in my mind then I'm willing to give it a shot, however if I can also use the process to get my chops up on a notation program then I'll go that way.


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