# Goldsmith's "Planet Of The Apes"...harmonic techniques or lack thereof?



## SvK (Aug 14, 2007)

Hi,

I'm studying (listening) to Goldsmith's "Planet Of The Apes".........it's amazing (it shows how truly lazy we have become in our approach to action music these days)

Questions:

I can hear 12 tone stuff going on with the low piano riffing on action cues....ok I get that!


But my question is more about all those weird, wonderful dynamic hits/ swells/ stingers.........(I get the odd timesignatures and weird world percussion)

What I don't understand is the harmonic language used to get at this stuff....sure it sounds random, but in a logical unmusical-musical way......(in other words I need to understand the disciplines he uses to establish an effective "Undisciplined" sound)


help me 

SvK


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 14, 2007)

Hi Steven,

do you have any links to the cues you referring to?


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## SvK (Aug 14, 2007)

Patrick 

Go Here for examples (click "On Apes_1.mp3" ....4th from top) i will post 5 more.....

http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=svonkampen&templatefn=FileSharing1.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.1.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en (http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/File ... US&amp;lang=en)

SvK


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## José Herring (Aug 14, 2007)

Goldsmith used mainly Bitonal techniques in Planet of the Apes. If you study Stravinsky's the Rite of Spring especially that famous marcato cello div near the beginning you'll get a better understanding of Planet of the Apes.

Also, I wouldn't judge Planet as idiomatic of Action music during any period. It's way out there for just about any subject except Planet of the Apes. I'd listen to John Williams Posidon Adveture, Black Sunday and Towering Inferno for more of a reference to what was happening in Action at the time.

Personally I think Goldsmith had a hell of a lot of guts to do that score. Back in the days before mock ups. So he shows up to the date with a far out score. I think what we lack today is guts like that.
One more thing. Goldsmith was famous for saying that he just wrote what he heard in his head. He never followed any method of tonal arrangement.

Jose


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## aeneas (Aug 14, 2007)

SvK @ Tue 14 Aug said:


> the disciplines he uses to establish an effective "Undisciplined" sound)


I think a good name for such a discipline is atonalism. Avoiding tonal relations among melodic and harmonic intervals. I doubt there is one film composer more musically knowledgeable than Goldsmith. Toru Takemitsu is another master of contemporary techniques.

I have always loved that score, I find it extremely bold musically. The use of percussions and of rhythm in general, is also very unusual yet effective in the film. The film itself looks kind of boring as plot, pacing, dialogs and all, but the music clearly stays out. A timeless score.


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## SvK (Aug 14, 2007)

I posted another 5 examples...click link above..

SvK


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## JohnnyMarks (Aug 14, 2007)

Have to think the players had fun on these dates (as when bungee jumping). I wonder if Goldsmith worked regularly with one player on these signature piano parts of his... (Sorry SvK a little off-topic this.)


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## david robinson (Aug 14, 2007)

hi steve,
saw this at the movies on first release in the late sixties.
loved it.
loved the score. made me a goldsmith fan for life.
haven't viewed it in a while, but the cues that still stand out for me now are the
opening titles music, the trek across the badlands music (with the high atonal string runs), and the gorillas culling the humans in the field, (where taylor is captured, scarey stuff).
i have studied this music, but it was in the eighties.
will listen and get back to you.
david.


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## ComposerDude (Aug 14, 2007)

According to http://www.scorereviews.com/reviews/review.aspx?id=471 it was Jerry Goldsmith's piano teacher: "The piano is much used as well, often with a very complex part, performed on the score by Goldsmith’s piano teacher, Jacob Gimpel."

-Peter


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## SvK (Aug 14, 2007)

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## SvK (Aug 14, 2007)

Just tried my hand at this....Don't laugh 

Like this? 

Click on "Apes_SvK.mp3" 

http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=svonkampen&templatefn=FileSharing1.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.1.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en (http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/File ... US&amp;lang=en) 

SvK


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## mixolydian (Aug 14, 2007)

SvK @ Tue Aug 14 said:


> Just tried my hand at this....Don't laugh
> 
> Like this?
> 
> Click on "Apes_SvK.mp3"



Can't say anything regarding the topic, but the first one I've listened was yours and I thought it was one of those originals. :D Sure, sonic quality are different animals, but at the very first listen... Whatsoever, you nailed it!


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## Dr.Quest (Aug 14, 2007)

As always...you just get it. Keep going!
J


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## tokyojoe (Aug 15, 2007)

Hi SvK,

I've been a long time fan of your stuff - and it just keeps getting better and better. Nice to see we share a love of Hermann and Goldsmith, in particular the Planet of the Apes score. As someone else mentioned earlier, you nailed the sound of the apes score in the clip you posted. Keep posting 'em!

Philip


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## SvK (Aug 15, 2007)

Asher,

Thanx!

Will do (I love Fielding)

SvK


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## José Herring (Aug 15, 2007)

Fielding did some wonderful stuff. 

Man I have a soft spot in my heart for the work that Goldsmith, Fielding and Shifrin where doing in the '70's. To me that defines contemporary film scoring. I know that John Williams came in and torpedoed that style to oblivion with Jaws, and Star Wars. But I must admit part of me wishes that the more dissonant stuff was still around.

Also, SvK Jerry was big into Jazz harmony as part of contemporary film scoring. So that certainly plays a part in PofTA.

Also take two minor chords a tritone apart. Say gmin and c#minor. Then build a scale using only those notes from those two chords. At this point then you can build a chord structure on top of the scale. Thus all sorts of weird modulations and permutations are possible. This can even be improvised. This is one very effective way to apply bitonal techniques.

If i have time today I'll see if I can bang out a quick demo using this technique. I'll lay out the chords first then the scale then the chords on the scale. Then play around with a tune.

Jose


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## SvK (Aug 15, 2007)

Jose,

Ma7 b5 baby!!

SvK


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## SvK (Aug 15, 2007)

Guys...all of you thanx for props and help!

SvK


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## JohnnyMarks (Aug 15, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Wed Aug 15 said:


> Goldsmith was not only totally mastertful with twelve-tone techniques, he was very aware of the work of contemporary composers like Berio, Boulez, Varese, and Stockhausen and indeed turned a lot of LA studio players onto this music.
> 
> This is why I always have to laugh when I see some Bozo on some forum write either that training is unnecessary or even a hinderance to creativity.
> 
> SVK, if you want to check out another adventurous score, try to find Jerry Fielding's score for "Straw Dogs." Wonderful stuff.


Speaking as someone trained (but never housebroken):

A great deal of extraordinary work has been done by people without training, and a shitload of formulaic crap has been produced by those with it. And vice versa.

Getting trained while not having it hinder creativity is the thin line we walk. Best to get in, get out, and move on.

Cheers,
Bozo

P.S. For every Goldsmith there were a hundred composers in academia calculat--, uh, _composing_ horrendous tone row stuff for each other. All these guys did was _think_ about music. More creativity (of the musical sort) in a thimblefull of Beatles than in all of that lot.

P.P.S. (Now I'm really goin'...) And you couldn't get out of school unless you successfully mimicked what they were doing...you couldn't get _trained_ unless you wrote like everybody else. How's _that _for creativity?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 15, 2007)

Great mock-up, Steven! Love your sound, man. 

And Jose, thanks for the tip about bitonal techniques. I love that period as well, and also wish there was more adventure in today's scores. That said, Sean Callery does do some interesting things on 24. I'm not talking about the bombastic stuff, but more the psychological drama underscore, like season 5's dissonant cues that symbolized the madness engulfing the former president and his wife.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 16, 2007)

The Beatles had plenty of training in a place called Hamburg. They also modeled on their heroes and borrowed from their contemporaries such as Dylan and Brian Wilson. McCartney still talks about Cole Porter. Bach hand copied Vivaldi, Stravinsky did the same with Bach. The point being that you have to do you homework in one way or another. 

Since composition is a science as well as an art you really are going to be a rare bird to soar to it's heights without plumbing it's depths. The trained composer is going to tend to have a wider range of expressive tools than a talented guy going on his gut. There are exceptions but there's a virtual epidemic of untrained composers out there who don't have enough training to detect the weaknesses in their music. It's like building a table without any apprenticeship. How good can it be?
Artists and artisans have known this for centuries going back to Stradivarius and the myriad schools and guilds. You can't be a lawyer or doctor without serious schooling but a great composer? Extremely rare. Guys like the Beatles come around once a century so that's not a good model (yet they went to school so-to-speak.) What would be more fun or enlightening than studying those fellows?


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## Ashermusic (Aug 16, 2007)

JohnnyMarks @ Wed Aug 15 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Goldsmith was not only totally mastertful with twelve-tone techniques, he was very aware of the work of contemporary composers like Berio, Boulez, Varese, and Stockhausen and indeed turned a lot of LA studio players onto this music.
> ...



There are as many or more untrained people creating dreadful music. For every Beatles there are hundreds of thousands of pop/rock artists with less creativity than the majority of those teaching composition at a good school have in their work. 

Anyway, Bozo, we are talking about film composing here which is a different discipline than composing for records..
Mimicking masters is a good way to learn and then develop your own style. Early Beethoven sounds like Mozart or Haydn. Early Liszt sounded like Chopin. Picasso was trained to and capable of drawing beautifully in a representational style like Rembrandt.

While there are exceptions, over the history of film composing specifically, if you list those we generally consider to be great or to have been great, the overwhelming majority of them were well trained. It is not a coincidence.


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## JohnnyMarks (Aug 16, 2007)

Chucko:



> There are as many or more untrained people creating dreadful music. For every Beatles there are hundreds of thousands of pop/rock artists with less creativity than the majority of those teaching composition at a good school have in their work.


I guess you missed my "And vice versa."



> Anyway, Bozo, we are talking about film composing here which is a different discipline than composing for records.


Depends on the kind of score. I find Ry Cooder's score to Wim Wender's "Paris, Texas" as creatively successful as say, Goldsmith's score to Chinatown. 

Speaking of today's scores, I find nearly an inverse of creativity and training. The work requiring the most training are the blockbuster scores that regurgitate every orchestral device known to man to puncuate every gesture on the screen - to absolutely minimal emotive effect. These scores could be composed by a computer, and probably will be.



> Mimicking masters is a good way to learn and then develop your own style. Early Beethoven sounds like Mozart or Haydn. Early Liszt sounded like Chopin. Picasso was trained to and capable of drawing beautifully in a representational style like Rembrandt.


I'm tempted to respond "duh!', but won't. These folks were imitating an established music appreciated by an audience. My reference was to the avante garde shit being shoved down my throat which nobody, but nobody every willingly listened to but themselves. Haven't heard any kids whistling Schoenberg lately, have you?



> While there are exceptions, over the history of film composing specifically, if you list those we generally consider to be great or to have been great, the overwhelming majority of them were well trained. It is not a coincidence.


Yes of course.

The 20th century put the means of creation within reach of everyone. The tradition to which you refer has ended. Concert halls are museums. It's a brave new world.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 16, 2007)

JohnnyMarks @ Thu Aug 16 said:


> Chucko:
> 
> _Speaking of today's scores, I find nearly an inverse of creativity and training. The work requiring the most training are the blockbuster scores that regurgitate every orchestral device known to man to puncuate every gesture on the screen - to absolutely minimal emotive effect. These scores could be composed by a computer, and probably will be._
> 
> ...




Once again, we are discussing film music here, not concert hall music. For every Ry Cooder score (yes, I like that score also) there are 20 scores comprised of music created by some "hip" band that the producer was fond of that were not particularly good and clueless about the craft of putting music to film.

Your "brave new world" is to me an apocalyptic vision for film music and I am glad that I am too old to see exactly how low it will devolve too if people with your attitude prevail.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 16, 2007)

"Haven't heard any kids whistling Schoenberg lately, have you?"

No, but every kid (and fomer kid) surely knows the Twilight Zone theme. The music on that show is closer to Schoenberg than just about anything else. Combat had the 12 tone master Leonard Rosenmen (Beneath The Planet of The Apes) doing some of the best music ever on TV. There are guys scoring TV now that are major hacks and clueless to all things composition. There are also wonderful writers in mainstream TV working today but the phenomenen of clueless composer is relatively recent and not gone unnoticed. If you ask what is the difference between modern composers and the old school guys (going back to early film with sound) you see the absence of craft (talent being whatever it is.)

Of course I can't argue with the point about the dreadful big Hollywood score or that one can do brilliant things and have no training at all etc. The point remains that the tendancy for someone who doesn't know their way around music fundamentals (and a whole lot more) will be that it's noticed by not only the discerning musician but also the public at large.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 16, 2007)

Very well stated, Jose and I largely agree.


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## JohnnyMarks (Aug 16, 2007)

> The point being that you have to do you homework in one way or another.


 Dave, precisely. Wish I had said this, as really it is the point I'm trying to make. 

The work goes in whether it's informed by "training" or not. Creative people can create their own discipline and approach to the materials of music. And be better off for having never been trained!

Or not. 

But it isn't just one way, as Asher's original smug remark suggested.

(To be clear: done well and in the right film, I love sophisticated, "trained" sounding music. It's all good, if it's good.)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 16, 2007)

I think, though, that there are many more opportunities/working composers today than there used to be. And so, there's room for both trained and un-trained composers. I can understand how a director might want to hire someone who has a particular 'edge' or 'rawness' in their writing due to their lack of schooling. OTOH, having studied music can give you the kind of tools that will save 'inspiration' time, and make for more variety in your writing.


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## José Herring (Aug 16, 2007)

I agree with you Ned. I think we can never lose our edge. Having been one that lost it for a while then had to get it back I don't think that we as trained musicians can rely on our training to get us through. There always has to be some newness involved. That's where I've noticed that untrained guys seem to shine. They can't rely on any training so they have to do something new. But not having any training they then find something that works and do that over and over and over and over until I can't take it anymore.

Funny you should mention "24". I actually think there's more original scoring happening in TV these days than in Film. 10 years ago it was the exact opposite.

Jose


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## JohnnyMarks (Aug 16, 2007)

Dave Connor @ Thu Aug 16 said:


> "Haven't heard any kids whistling Schoenberg lately, have you?"
> 
> No, but every kid (and fomer kid) surely knows the Twilight Zone theme. The music on that show is closer to Schoenberg than just about anything else. Combat had the 12 tone master Leonard Rosenmen (Beneath The Planet of The Apes) doing some of the best music ever on TV.


I got a little off track there blowing off steam about _my_ training. I guess you had to be there; I do know things are different now. Atonality was _the music_ of our time, which we were all expected to write. A whiff of a cadence - up went their noses and down went your grades. My comment about kids in the schoolyard was of course a reference to Schoenberg's famous remark.

Couple of amusing (to me anyway) stories:

I'm at a faculty concert, one of the professors stands to introduce his piece, and explains how it was inspired by an Irish romantic poem, two lovers strolling alongside a river etc.
They fire up the piece - and it sounds like frickin' Planet of the Apes! >8o This says it all with respect to academic composing at the time. And...

My girlfriend takes a class at the Schoenberg Institute from Leonard Stein, Schoenberg's assistant of many years. Stein explains that Schoenberg invented twelve tone technique after his wife left him - and in Stein's opinion this was not a coincidence, that Schoenberg's frame of mind prompted his inventing his system to destroy tonality. :lol: 

And where did atonality find a home? In the movies: evoking anxiety, disorientation, despair etc., as in the great Planet of the Apes score that is the topic of this thread (Really, that's the topic! Go back and check! ). Apologies SvK, I'm done.


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## JohnnyMarks (Aug 16, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Aug 16 said:


> I think, though, that there are many more opportunities/working composers today than there used to be. And so, there's room for both trained and un-trained composers. I can understand how a director might want to hire someone who has a particular 'edge' or 'rawness' in their writing due to their lack of schooling. OTOH, having studied music can give you the kind of tools that will save 'inspiration' time, and make for more variety in your writing.


Yeah. Horses for courses.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 16, 2007)

JohnnyMarks @ Thu Aug 16 said:


> > The point being that you have to do you homework in one way or another.
> 
> 
> Dave, precisely. Wish I had said this, as really it is the point I'm trying to make.
> ...



Well I am sorry you perceive it as smugness as I feel anything but. I am constantly awed by the greatness of people like Goldsmith and Fielding, and even John Powell. 

Once again, I acknowledge that there are talented guys who are not well-trained who do scores but I still maintain the vast majority who turn out consistently good work are. And as hard as I am trying at the moment I cannot come up with the name of even one who fits that description who is not well trained.


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## SvK (Aug 16, 2007)

RAW talent hums a great tune....

TRAINING turns that tune into an hour+ of effectively scored orchestrations, that are reinvented for all the neccessary emotions (love, hate, redemption, suspense)

It took me 20 years to get over the arrogance that I don't need training....what a joke
I've heard the errors of my ways....


SvK


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## SvK (Aug 16, 2007)

You know I'm gonna make some foes now 

but here it goes.....

It's very easy to succumb to the temptation of the "BIG low-end".........ContraBass / Bassy loops / Big massive beats etc....
 
..........these are powerful devices, as they take up a huge amount of sonic space......and thereby give a misguided sense of completeness to the composer....

BUT 

If you take all the beats and the low drones out.........is there still music there? With untrained (like myself for my first 15 to 20 years) usually not. 

SvK


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## Ashermusic (Aug 16, 2007)

SvK @ Thu Aug 16 said:


> RAW talent hums a great tune....
> 
> TRAINING turns that tune into an hour+ of effectively scored orchestrations, that are reinvented for all the neccessary emotions (love, hate, redemption, suspense)
> 
> ...



Kudos! o-[][]-o


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 16, 2007)

I don't think you'll make foes here, Steven. A lot of us old-fashioned-farts members start off the compositional process with a solo instrument playing some kind of melody or melodic motif to build the harmony around. Or we start by slapping 3 or 4 loops in RMX to get the groove rocking first! o/~ =o :lol:


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## Dave Connor (Aug 16, 2007)

JohnnyMarks @ Thu Aug 16 said:


> (To be clear: done well and in the right film, I love sophisticated, "trained" sounding music. It's all good, if it's good.)



I agree. Music is like anything else in that you have a gamut of forms of expression that may require a certain expertise and may not. Rap going way back was all about a groove and that was that. You didn't have to be an expert musician in the classic sense but certainly had to have a good rhythmic sense and put together a clever rhyme. With Prince however you have someone with all kinds of roots and a real student of those roots whether it's Jimi Hendrix or James Brown or James Jamerson. 

With the art of composition you have Bach and all his sons and spirtual sons like Mozart and Beethoven. Herrman, Goldsmith, North, Bernstein, Broughton and the like have their roots down deep in these guys even if not directly but from teachers. The reason has nothing to do with acadamia: it has to do with sound. Sound must be built or constructed in some way. If you have something solid than you can adorn or ornament it it any number of ways. The more ways you learn the more the more options you have. This however is the point of departure for original thought and real creativity: going with your gut in a way. One doesn't listen to Jerry Goldsmith and say, "I wonder what school he went to?" He is the school.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 17, 2007)

Once again, this is a very different discussion if we are talking about pop music, concert hall music, or film scoring. They all have different demands even though the paths may intersect at times.

What made Goldsmith so remarkable was that he could could be bold, innovative, and most importantly, play the picture in a huge range of styles. And I simply do not believe he could have done that without a certain level of training, which he had. Hermann, Fielding, Elmer Bernstein, Hank Mancini, Thomas Newman, etc. all were well trained.

Hans Zimmer, Danny Elfman, and some other film composers are far less so and they do some nice work, no disrespect intended to them, but does anyone here really believe that they could create on the same level in so many styles as a Goldsmith or a Fielding?


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## Ashermusic (Aug 18, 2007)

I don't have a recipe. Basketball players spend hours practicing their moves so that when they step on a court it has been integrated so well that they can just create. The same is true for me for composition/orchestration. I just know what I have to do to accomplish my musical goal and I do it. Sometimes that means sticking to traditional harmony/contrapuntal principles and sometimes it means stepping outside them.

And SVK you are correct that weight is a big part of it. Ask a untrained composer who is also inexperienced, "Which will sound fuller?"
A) 6 instruments, 3 notes, 2 per note
B) 6 instruments, 2 notes, 3 per note

Many, if not most, will answer A when of course B is correct. Does that mean one should never choose A? Of course not. But does that mean that B is a fuller sound? Yes.

One does not know this intuitively. One learns this either from training or experience. Training allows you to know it without having to have made the wrong choice first and experienced it, says Jay smugly.


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## JohnnyMarks (Aug 18, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> ...says Jay smugly.


:lol: 8)


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## ComposerDude (Aug 18, 2007)

And as someone once said, "Experience enables one to recognize a mistake when one makes it again." :wink:


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## aeneas (Aug 18, 2007)

I heard someone else said something like knowledge prevents one to see the mistake _before_ it is produced.

Einstein said this: "Imagination is more important than knowledge." And he was talking about science, about physics. He was a fine violinist too.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 18, 2007)

aeneas @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> I heard someone else said something like knowledge prevents one to see the mistake _before_ it is produced.
> .




I wonder how much experience that guy had


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## Ashermusic (Aug 18, 2007)

aeneas @ Sat Aug 18 said:


> I heard someone else said something like knowledge prevents one to see the mistake _before_ it is produced.
> 
> Einstein said this: "Imagination is more important than knowledge." And he was talking about science, about physics. He was a fine violinist too.



It is a little different for geniuses. Einstein was a genius. I am not. I am just guessing, mind you, but I doubt that many of you are either :lol:


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## midphase (Aug 19, 2007)

Steven,

If you covet that type of sound, and seek to gain insight into how to achieve what composers did 20-50 years ago with film music...you should seriously consider looking into EIS. I believe it can give you the right tools to achieve that and more.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 19, 2007)

josejherring @ Thu Aug 16 said:


> As far as film scoring is concerned there's too much money involved for it to be considered an art form any more. Art comprises risk. Art is forward looking and looks towards the future. Money doesn't like risk it's very conservative that way. Money is only concerned with what made money yesterday. People spending 100 to 200 million on a film don't want to hear the word risk or avantgarde or experimental or "trying somehting new". The only words they want to hear are, "existing market". To me if you go into any artistic medium thinking that way you'll only do what has been done before and never try anything new. That's what's happening today for the most part with rare exception. Even Thomas Newman who was very original has ended up having to repeat himself 100 times afterwards because his sound was "successful". I find that happening all over and I've found that if you treat this as an "art" then we're in trouble.Jose



Right on Jose!

Now to go back to the superimposition of tonaltities:

Check this youtube video out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_7VxmTbuWE&mode=related&search=

It show conductor Roni Porat explaining how Stravinsky superimposed a Dminor and a Eb minor triads in Rite of Spring. Very entertaining!

PS: Gb minor triad over C minor triad spells C diminished (h/w) as an obvious possibility (a very cool way to suggest diminished by assigning each triad to a different section in the orchestra!)


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 19, 2007)

Excellent thread Steven! =o 

Thanks for the great examples (and your cue is cool too!)


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## aeneas (Aug 19, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Sun 19 Aug said:


> aeneas @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I heard someone else said something like knowledge prevents one to see the mistake _before_ it is produced.
> ...


I am sorry, I don't get it. What are you suggesting here? Are you implying that experience always proves that mistakes cannot be avoided, no matter one's knowledge? Just venturing, please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 19, 2007)

aeneas @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun 19 Aug said:
> 
> 
> > aeneas @ Sat Aug 18 said:
> ...



Yes and no. If you never make a mistake you are never trying to stretch.

What I am saying is that if you have experience you have probably (hopefully) already made some of those mistakes that an inexperienced person does not see coming and therefore will not make them again.

While there are few things in life that I say "always" to I will posit the following:

The guy who has done 50 films/tv shows will make fewer mistakes on his 51st than the guy who has done 2 will make on his 3rd. 

If not, either:
1. The less experienced guy is truly remarkable.
2. The more experienced guy is a VERY slow learner.


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## aeneas (Aug 19, 2007)

Got it!  

My bad, I said it wrong, what I meant was: knowledge _enables_ one to see the mistake before it is produced.

I guess _practical_ experience (excuse the redundancy) provides _theoretical_ knowledge. But personal experience is not the only source of knowledge - we can achieve knowledge from other people's wisdom, right? So we can avoid mistakes without having to first bump into them, no? That is what I meant. 

OTOH, I really believe that, genius or not, imagination is more important than knowledge, in music even more than in physics. Imagination brings into being new things, while knowledge just helps keeping everything in balance, so that those new things don't go completely crazy.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 19, 2007)

Cool video link, Patrick. Regarding the Rite chords though, I believe the second one is Eb minor.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 19, 2007)

aeneas @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> Got it!
> 
> My bad, I said it wrong, what I meant was: knowledge _enables_ one to see the mistake before it is produced.
> 
> ...



In general I agree but Jose is right that film scoring is more about craft than art so imagination is less important IMHO than to be able to look at a scene, analyze how the music can help support it, and then implement that.

Some of the best film music is unimpressive as a listening experience and some of the most impressive to listen to did not help the picture much. Ideally you do both but supporting the picture is always job number one for film music.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 19, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> Cool video link, Patrick. Regarding the Rite chords though, I believe the second one is Eb minor.



My bad Ned, thanks for correcting me!

In my haste I kept the right relationship (2 minor triads, a half step apart) but not the right key for the piece... (o)


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## aeneas (Aug 19, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Sun 19 Aug said:


> to be able to look at a scene, analyze how the music can help support it, and then implement that.


I think what you are referring to here looks to me more like imagination, less like knowledge... To do that task, one needs both of course, but in the first place one should _imagine_, project in his mind, what will work in that scene. Knowledge and previous experience surely have their big part to make things easier - but they are both more like craft, while imagination is the artistic part of it. 

Imagination and Knowledge - Yin and Yang. Which one is more important? Maybe, for once, Einstein was wrong. (did I really say that?? :shock: )

I figure Goldsmith first established the whole vision of what musical idiom will best serve that film, then he imagined what type of cues would match each scene, and then he did come up with the music. His musical knowledge made available to him many idioms, including the atonal one. So, knowledge is important. But then, it took imagination to musically accompany those visual scenes. So, imagination is important. Which one is _more_ important, that could be an endless debate. It's just safe to say that none of them is to be overlooked.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 19, 2007)

What should be kept in mind is the reality of the scoring job: temp tracks.
And in order to listen to a temp track and do a great job at emulating it and putting something personal in there, one needs both an education AND personality.
Nowadays, it is very rare to get a scoring job with a blank slate as music reference ...


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## aeneas (Aug 19, 2007)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sun 19 Aug said:


> Nowadays, it is very rare to get a scoring job with a blank slate as music reference ...


Or with Planet of the Apes as temp track...

Temp tracks - that would be an interesting topic.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 20, 2007)

aeneas @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun 19 Aug said:
> 
> 
> > to be able to look at a scene, analyze how the music can help support it, and then implement that.
> ...



Good points and well stated.


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## rgames (Sep 7, 2007)

Originality in film music will always be difficult because if it's too original, it'll get in the way of the story.

As has been stated in this thread, and elsewhere, a lot of (most?) good film music is not very interesting by itself. And a lot of very interesting and original music is not good for film.



> Maybe, for once, Einstein was wrong. (did I really say that??)


OT, I know, but I couldn't help replying. Einstein was wrong quite often, and in big ways. For example, his quote about "God not playing dice with the universe" was due to his lack of acceptance of the ideas behind quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics has since become THE most validated theory in the history of science. Doh! And then there's the cosmological constant thing, which he called his greatest error. Funny - most would agree that his unacceptance of quantum mechanics was his greatest error, so he was even wrong about what he was most wrong about...! 

Of course, he was also very right about a number of things, also in big ways.

rgames


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## mducharme (Sep 21, 2007)

SvK,

Have you considered accessing and studying the actual score as opposed to trying to figure it out by ear?


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## musicpete (Sep 28, 2007)

mducharme @ 21.9.2007 said:


> SvK,
> 
> Have you considered accessing and studying the actual score as opposed to trying to figure it out by ear?


This is possible? Whom do I have to sell my right butt cheek to get a copy of that score?


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## mducharme (Sep 28, 2007)

mducharme @ 21.9.2007 said:


> This is possible? Whom do I have to sell my right butt cheek to get a copy of that score?



Sure it's possible...

http://www.oscars.org/mhl/sc/goldsmith_jerry_sc.html

If you travel to Los Angeles or live there, you can make an appointment.. I'm traveling there next month and have an appointment to study it and a bunch of other Goldsmith scores. I suggested it to SvK b/c he lives in San Diego according to his profile, so he's not far from there.

Mike


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## musicpete (Dec 11, 2007)

Sorry, I missed your answer....

Well, travelling to the USA is out of the question for me, even less so for looking at an orchestral score for a few minutes. I guess I'm out of luck for the time being.

What I want is to get a copy of that score for home study. Too bad so much of the good stuff is not available for the interested public.


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