# Brickwall limiter on the master bus for ear protection against unexpected loud noise ( request for help )



## darkneo57 (Dec 7, 2020)

Hi, 

being very careful with my ears and being a computer music beginner I will need your help with the brickwall limiter.

Could you please confirm that putting a brickwall limiter in insert on the master bus (e.g. the one in cubase) will block all sound above the defined threshold and thus protect me against abnormally loud sound (e.g. "crazy noise" parameter error new library) ?

If this is correct, can you please confirm that I don't need to set the release, because as long as the signal is above the threshold, the compressor is still doing its job?







As long as the signal does not exceed the threshold, the signal remains intact ?

Will this increase the latency, if and by how much?

Thank you very much, very good week to you


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## darcvision (Dec 7, 2020)

darkneo57 said:


> Could you please confirm that putting a brickwall limiter in insert on the master bus (e.g. the one in cubase) will block all sound above the defined threshold and thus protect me against abnormally loud sound (e.g. "crazy noise" parameter error new library) ?


yes, basically it will turn down the peak. but, if you're doing this for protect your ear, there's a plugin called ice9. if the peak reached 0db, your master bus will be automatically muted, and of course you can tweak the threshold.


btw, you can download the plugin here


Download Ice9 by Cerberus Audio


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## chrisr (Dec 7, 2020)

Hi,

To protect against loud sounds you ideally should have something that will quickly cut the sound dead above a threshold. That's because, depending upon how loud you're working, the solution above will have _some_ usefulness - but could still end up with you hearing a very loud, prolonged sound.

If you search for "Ice9 vst" there's a free plug-in that will do it well. Annoyingly I think it's 32bit only so won't work if you're using more recent versions of cubase, unless you jbridge it. So... you would still need to spend a small amount of money on (the incredibly useful) jbridge to create a 64bit compatible .dll, which is what I did. Jbridge has proved very useful in allowing me to keep a couple of other old vst plugins too.

Alternatively Nugen's "sig mod" product has a module that does the same thing.


To answer your questions about the limiter (as separate from the above info) - yes signal under the threshold remains intact / un-affected. Yes latency increases by approx 1ms - I just googled it and that latency info is on the steinberg website.

best,
Chris


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## chrisr (Dec 7, 2020)

** sorry to repeat @stefandy31 - posted at same time ...


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## AudioLoco (Dec 7, 2020)

It is usually better to have these kind of "protection limiters" as hardware before your speakers.
It is usually a live application thing to want to do that in order to protect monitors from frying or because of a venue dB legal maximum loudness allowed.

If you put a limiter on your DAW output you are doing all kind of things to your audio too and once you take it off for bouncing you will get a different result that doesn't reflect what you were listening to until that point. 

Having said that, I wouldn't put neither hardware or software, and just generally lower the monitoring volume.


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## darkneo57 (Dec 7, 2020)

thank you for your answer



> the solution above will have _some_ usefulness - but could still end up with you hearing a very loud, prolonged sound.



how can this happen ? I set the threshold to 0db, "I played disproportionately hard" on all the tracks in my template, everything was blocked at 0db.


Thank you for explaining this to me.


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## agon (Dec 7, 2020)

Unfortunately CerberusAudio.com no longer exists.


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## chrisr (Dec 7, 2020)

darkneo57 said:


> how can this happen ? I set the threshold to 0db, "I played disproportionately hard" on all the tracks in my template, everything was blocked at 0db.
> Thank you for explaining this to me.



A very quick explanation - you'll have to search around the forum to learn more. So - couple of things:

... you should be working with some_ headroom, _such that your music, in it's loudest sections still has a level of several db lower than zero - in _my case_, mixes in cubase peak at around -12, although you might get different advice from different people on that.

Loud things in music tend to be very brief, the transient hit of a drum for example. However, the sort of noise you're trying to protect against is not transient in nature, but prolonged. You can easily mimic it by creating an audio track in CB, adding the "TestGenerator" and selecting white noise. _With your monitors/headphones set very very low - turn the level of that noise up towards 0db (it defaults to -12 when you open the plug in I believe)._

Now stop the noise and play your cubase music. You'll very likely find that, unless you're writing slamming electro music, the level of your music is pretty low, particularly if you're leaving a good amount of headroom when working.

In short - you're probably working with your levels a little too loud, and noise bursts are particularly loud and dangerous to the ear, compared to music, at any given level.


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## agon (Dec 7, 2020)

stefandy31 said:


> btw, you can download the plugin here
> 
> 
> Download Ice9 by Cerberus Audio


No, you can't.


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## nordicguy (Dec 7, 2020)

Here's an option, not free though.
A plugin called SigMod from Nugen Audio.
Pretty interesting utility plugin(s).
Here's an excerpt of what they have to say about it:
"
Custom signal architecture
Instantly enhance the functionality of your plug-ins and DAW with twelve different signal modification units
"
Here's the the "signal modification unit" related to what you're looking for.
"
Protect speakers, ears & sanity
Insert the Protect unit across your output bus and this safety module will automatically cut in to prevent bursts of noise or feedback howls due to system errors, saving both your nerves and your speakers. Manual or auto reset options give you the level of protection you need - a real gift when working with headphones!
"


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## labornvain (Dec 7, 2020)

AudioLoco said:


> It is usually better to have these kind of "protection limiters" as hardware before your speakers.
> It is usually a live application thing to want to do that in order to protect monitors from frying or because of a venue dB legal maximum loudness allowed.
> 
> If you put a limiter on your DAW output you are doing all kind of things to your audio too and once you take it off for bouncing you will get a different result that doesn't reflect what you were listening to until that point.
> ...


 Putting a brick wall limiter on your master bus will do absolutely nothing to the signal unless the signal exceeds the threshold wherein the limiter will kick in and start limiting.

The only exception is dithering which you should turn off unless you're mixing down to lower bit rate.


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## AudioLoco (Dec 7, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Putting a brick wall limiter on your master bus will do absolutely nothing to the signal unless the signal exceeds the threshold wherein the limiter will kick in and start limiting.
> 
> The only exception is dithering which you should turn off.


Yes, correct, that is obvious, we are not talking about a mojo compressor. 
But if your limiter IS working (thus exceeding the threshold), even a bit, with a peak here and a peak there, then yes, your signal will change. 
And therefore the resulting export/bounce with the limiter bypassed will sound different.


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## darkneo57 (Dec 7, 2020)

thank you chrisr for your answer



> However, the sort of noise you're trying to protect against is not transient in nature, but prolonged. You can easily mimic it by creating an audio track in CB, adding the "TestGenerator" and selecting white noise.



applied your manipulation and the limiter works well, the signal does not exceed the threshold, even with a prolonged sound. So why not? It seems to work very well.

Otherwise, what you describe about my signal and the -12 db puor ke peak, I'm a beginner and I just created a thread for help with gain stagging and how to adjust the monitors and the audio interface. Currently, when I play my peaks are about -5db. When I did your manipulation, it's true that when I play, my level is low, I set the sound card level to 0, instead of the volume of the monitors.

If you can help me with this:


https://www.presonus.com/learn/technical-articles/how-do-i-calibrate-my-studio-monitors









K-System? Try the T-System! - Gearspace.com


News, Dec 2015: The entire tutorial is now available as a downloadable PDF, attached to the bottom of this post. +++ The name is just a play on Bob Kat



www.gearslutz.com





When I made the tests with my sound card at the max, I reach 80 Db on my monitors whereas they are at less than 5% of their maximum value. ( yamaha HS 7 ) Personally, and especially being very careful with my ears, it worries me a lot, I think I prefer to leave the volumes of my sound card and my monitors at 50%.

What should I do ? 

it's come frome the thread :






At what volume should I set Kontakt, the sound card and the monitors ???


hi, I am a beginner in computer music, the sound libraries I use have different volumes for the same velocity (pianos), I also have strings and brass and I'm making my first real template. In Kontak I have set the volumes in relation to the sound clipping with a midi file with high velocities...




vi-control.net





thanks a lot


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## Stringtree (Dec 7, 2020)

I agree with @AudioLoco. Hardware solution before the monitors. If the computer takes a #############!,,, the plugin might not even have control of the audio hardware. 

Lots of compressors have a brick wall limiter.


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## darcvision (Dec 8, 2020)

agon said:


> No, you can't.


you can download here








Cerberus Audio - Ice9 Automute


size 11.6 MB / 13.2 MB Ice9 Automute’s soft-muting function will begin to attenuate the gain before a si




freevstplugins.net


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## darkneo57 (Dec 8, 2020)

thanks you, anyway me i'm in 64bits, apparently it only works in 32 bit


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## agon (Dec 8, 2020)

darkneo57 said:


> thanks you, anyway me i'm in 64bits, apparently it only works in 32 bit


If you are talking about the Ice9 Automute, there are 2 versions in the zip, 32 and 64bit. I just installed it and it works perfectly in 64bit. I'm talking about the Windows version for my case.
Et salutations aux Français de ce forum


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## telecode101 (Dec 8, 2020)

i would just work with lots of headroom. my default cubase templates has mix fasders at -15. i work with the volume knob a lot to compensate as needed. putting anything on your master bus will affect all the audio. not recommended.


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## AudioLoco (Dec 8, 2020)

I am reading a lot of questions and doubts about how levels should be managed on the master output and audio interface.
I suspect a lot of these doubts come from the fact many people don't have separate monitor controllers.

I strongly suggest to whoever lacks one to get even a basic monitor controller. it is a great investment, I couldn't live without mine.
(They are so handy also because of the mono button, dim button, talkback, alternate monitoring, extra headphone outputs etc, like the master section of an old school mixer)

Set your DAW master fader to 0dB as it should be, your audio interface output to 0dB and control your monitoring levels from the monitor controller. 
It saves a lot of headaches indeed.

Just my two cents


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## jcrosby (Dec 8, 2020)

AudioLoco said:


> I am reading a lot of questions and doubts about how levels should be managed on the master output and audio interface.
> I suspect a lot of these doubts come from the fact many people don't have separate monitor controllers.
> 
> I strongly suggest to whoever lacks one to get even a basic monitor controller. it is a great investment, I couldn't live without mine.
> ...


100%...


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## RonV (Dec 8, 2020)

A Mackie Big Knob Passive monitor controller is about $70 and takes up very little space on the desk. Works great.


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## telecode101 (Dec 8, 2020)

AudioLoco said:


> I am reading a lot of questions and doubts about how levels should be managed on the master output and audio interface.
> I suspect a lot of these doubts come from the fact many people don't have separate monitor controllers.
> 
> I strongly suggest to whoever lacks one to get even a basic monitor controller. it is a great investment, I couldn't live without mine.
> ...



the way i do is have mix faders set to -15 and the master at -6. you can always go up if you need to. the other thing i do is i use a little snip as a loudness reference before the track starts. usually a loud kick or snare which is used to refernece where other instruments should be maxing out at. i know an acoustic piano will (or should ) never be as loud as a kick . thats how i do it at least.


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## Illico (Dec 8, 2020)

What about a Limiter on Cubase Control Room Monitor/Phones Channel insert ?


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## MichaelVakili (Dec 8, 2020)

I used to put limiters ,when I started but in time I found that better option is just to mix and compose on low volume. If your mix and composition sounds good on low volume - you can always bump up just to see how it sounds louder. Also some limiters are really CPU heavy /TR5 Stealth, Ozone, Waves l316 etc.. /


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## AudioLoco (Dec 8, 2020)

telecode101 said:


> the way i do is have mix faders set to -15 and the master at -6. you can always go up if you need to. the other thing i do is i use a little snip as a loudness reference before the track starts. usually a loud kick or snare which is used to refernece where other instruments should be maxing out at. i know an acoustic piano will (or should ) never be as loud as a kick . thats how i do it at least.


That may work but sounds convoluted...
Monitor controller with the volume knob always set to the same reference to start with, and everything else at 0dB. 
Straight-forward piece of cake.

Also sometimes a piano has to sound much louder then a kick, and a whisper has to sound louder then an orchestra Tutti hit...


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## merty (Dec 8, 2020)

RonV said:


> A Mackie Big Knob Passive monitor controller is about $70 and takes up very little space on the desk. Works great.



Previous version famously sounded terrible but I didn't demo the new design.


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## darkneo57 (Dec 10, 2020)

thank you all for your answers, for ice 64bits, and for the greeting to the french haha ^^

could you please answer these two questions:

I don't understand why some people say that a brickwall on the master bus doesn't work, I'm sorry, I've just done a lot of tests playing with very high velocities with the sample libraries, I put a very strong white noise, it works perfectly even with prolonged sounds. Thank you, please explain to me if it works or not, and why, and give me an example so that I can observe it at home. Thank you in advance



> It is usually better to have these kind of "protection limiters" as hardware before your speakers.
> It is usually a live application thing to want to do that in order to protect monitors from frying or because of a venue dB legal maximum loudness allowed.



Could you please give me the name of this hardware device, its average price, and how it works, in a brief way because I am very interested

I thank you in advance and wish you a nice day.


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## telecode101 (Dec 10, 2020)

darkneo57 said:


> I don't understand why some people say that a brickwall on the master bus doesn't work,



a brickwall you normally use in mastering stage after you finished everything. putting in permanently in the chain from the beginning of the process changes everything else you are hearing.


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## darkneo57 (Dec 10, 2020)

sorry telecod101, but i think you wrong

Labornvain said


> Putting a brick wall limiter on your master bus will do absolutely nothing to the signal unless the signal exceeds the threshold wherein the limiter will kick in and start limiting.


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## rnieto (Dec 10, 2020)

My 2 cents—it's not common for a composing, editing or mixing setup to have any limiting merely to _keep loud sounds from damaging one's hearing_. I've worked as a recording engineer and sound designer at many professional studios over the last 25 years and none of them had anything like that.

In my opinion, it's much more useful to learn good practices from the start. Don't have your headphones' or speakers' volume set so loud that a sudden noise can harm your ears. The rule of thumb is, if you're unsure of what you're doing at any point, lower the volume.

The Dim button is your best friend. Keep it engaged while you're setting up your work session.

Calibrate your speakers well, keep your headphones at a reasonable, comfortable level, and only really crank up the volume for short periods of time to check your mixes at different listening levels.

If you're recording with microphones in the same room you're working in, keep your levels low while you're setting them up to avoid feedback through your speakers (again, the Dim button). Believe me, if you forget once, you'll rarely forget again 

When you're going to use any calibration tone (1 kHz, white noise, pink noise), keep your headphones' and speakers' volume very low. When you're done, bring them back to normal levels.

Again, just my 2 cents.


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## darkneo57 (Dec 10, 2020)

sorry, i'm french, what means " dim " button, decreasing the volume ?

thanks


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## telecode101 (Dec 10, 2020)

darkneo57 said:


> sorry, i'm french, what means " dim " button, decreasing the volume ?
> 
> thanks



it just means "reduce". 

there is no right or wrong way of doing it i think. whatever works for you. the only time i have heard of a crazy spike is with some plugins. there was a thread over at NI where Massive X did something where it spiked to 600db out of the blue. it's never happened in my setup. but seems to have happened to others.









Solved - +668dB spike from Massive X!!!!! (MASSIVEX-2304)


How is this possible!?!? I have seen plugins give a spike sometimes, but this is close to technically impossible. Nothing broke as far as I can tell...




www.native-instruments.com


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## rnieto (Dec 10, 2020)

darkneo57 said:


> sorry, i'm french, what means " dim " button, decreasing the volume ?
> 
> thanks



No worries  In Cubase Pro, it's this little guy here:






Many audio interfaces have a dedicated Dim button as well. It reduces the monitoring volume, usually by 10dB or so, depending on the manufacturer.


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## telecode101 (Dec 10, 2020)

rnieto said:


> No worries  In Cubase Pro, it's this little guy here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i am an idiot. i have been manually turning down faders. never saw this before. :-(


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## AudioLoco (Dec 10, 2020)

darkneo57 said:


> sorry, i'm french, what means " dim " button, decreasing the volume ?
> 
> thanks



Yes it is a feature of every single studio mixer known to man. (and of the decent monitor controllers out there)
It is a button that lowers the volume by a certain amount. Usually it is used when a band member is trying to talk to you and you are trying to understand what they are saying (or pretend to, hahahah!) without stopping playback.... or you just want to rest your ears, or listen to something really low so you can figure out balancing of vocals for example, etc etc....

As for a limiter on the master, this is just not how it is supposes to be used, it serves other purposes which is not "hearing protection". There is plenty of info about how and why to use a brickwall limiter.

The protection limiters I was talking about are something like this: https://www.thomann.de/it/the_tracks_limit_2_2.htm?glp=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInpSPjPXD7QIVFuJ3Ch1bbAe4EAQYASABEgIElfD_BwE (limiter for venues)

But I have never seen one in a studio before, and I couldn't advice you as I haven't been live engineering for more then 15 years, so I don't know what is out there.

They are not made for studio use, just follow the great advice by Rnieto up here and you'll be fine.


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## darkneo57 (Dec 14, 2020)

thank you for your answer

I am aware that I am a beginner, and that this is not the way to use it, but no matter, does it work or not? Something can work without being designed for one thing. ( no offense )

As far as I'm concerned, I only use virtual instruments, I set up my first template, and I explore my libraries, adjust the volumes, waiting to have a hardware limiter before the monitors (if I understood correctly), my limiter on the master bus suits me very well because I don't go over the threshold.

Thank you for all the information 

Could you please confirm to me that the hardware device that protects against "jumping sounds and very loud crazy noise" is a hardware limiter, and that I place the one if after the exit of the donation card and in front of the monitors.

Thank you very much.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 14, 2020)

I think you will be fine using a limiter on your master bus for novice use and yes that should prevent it from getting any louder past a point you set. It’s fine, it’s safe. Some have latency and some don’t. Use a very lightweight one that ideally is passing the sound through untouched 99% of the time and only kicking rarely when it has to. 

What they are trying to explain though is that when you do that you are also hiding problems in the gain staging of your mix and probably establishing bad habits. If some particular instrument is too loud the limiter will be hiding that from you and squashing it’s dynamic range at the same time.

You need to get in the habit of pulling up an instrument and adjusting its levels straight away so that the meter is not coming even close to zero, on every channel of every instrument do that step. You should get in the habit of doing that even if you place ice9 or a limiter on the master bus just in case you forget.

The good thing about ice9 is that it will annoy you by cutting out the audio. Whenever they happens go find the offending channel and turn it down until ice9 stops annoying you.

With a limiter it will not annoy you, you will probably not even notice there is a problem. But if you make a mix, it will be compromised because of that.

I know for me, way more then half the time I’m not even making a mix I’m just playing instruments, composing, etc...and frankly don’t care during that time whether my mix gainstagjng is wrong I just want to play with no fuss and protect my ears while doing it, in that case a limiter on the master bus is totally fine and won’t annoy at all by cutting out like ice9 or sigmod


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 14, 2020)

I personally do not see any difference between controlling the master volume on the master bus vs controlling it with an external device. The only difference I see is that you have a dedicated knob you can reach for to turn it down, without touching your actual mix. The external knob will have no effect on mix bounces because it’s totally outside of cubase. But unless that external controller also has either a limiter or ear protection circuit like ice9, then you still have the same issue where you need to take personal responsibility for the gain staging of your channels so that no offending instrument will blast you.

I actually try really hard to set my master fader to a level such that most of my instruments sound about right at unity gain. That way it is unlikely that any rogue inst will blast through higher. It still every once in a while there will be something that is loud or a plug-in not behaving well or whatever. I prefer ice9 because it protects my ears in a annoying way where it cuts out the audio until I go figure out where the problem is and fix it.


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## darkneo57 (Dec 15, 2020)

Hi,

thank you Dewdman42 for your answer, you understood my case perfectly. For me, this protection is individual gain stagging protection, I just feel better in complete safety, whether it is with ice9, limit on the master bus.

I have understood and I wish to do the gain stagging correctly. As far as I'm concerned, for the moment the sound does not exceed -5db, (I should do it so as not to exceed -18db), I will make sure that the sound arrives well before the -4 -5 db before removing the limiter.
Because when I set up my monitors and set my audio interface to max (unity gain), I get to 80 db while my monitors are at about 5% of the maximum value and I have to tell you that I'm very worried about this, I won't set my motu m4 audio interface to max as long as I don't have a hardware limiter between the audio interface and the monitors.

Could you please confirm to me that the external limiter, placed after the audio interface and in front of the monitors is the device that allows to block the sound volume (or deform by compression whatever) at a certain sound level set by the user (e;g 85db) and that even if I have a problem with my audio interface, it is the ultimate protection to not exceed a certain sound level in his studio.


Thank you very much


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 15, 2020)

An external device can limit the sound two different ways. One way is as an attenuator, basically a fader, that turns down the signal on its way to the speakers. This is not much different then using the software master bus fader to turn it down, except that it’s outside the computer and you don’t have to remember to do it every time you start a new project.

Alternatively you can use an external compressor limiter which will squash the peaks of sound. This is safer then attenuator but it also changes your mix so it’s not a good idea to have it on while mixing. It’s pretty much exactly the same as if you use a software limiter on the master bus of your daw, except you don’t have to remember to turn it on.

All motu modern interfaces have the ability to adjust the level going to your speakers directly in the hardware and even apply limiting if you want. I personally would not advise you to use a hardware limiter because you want to be in the habit of turning it off frequently.


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## jbuhler (Dec 15, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> I think you will be fine using a limiter on your master bus for novice use and yes that should prevent it from getting any louder past a point you set. It’s fine, it’s safe. Some have latency and some don’t. Use a very lightweight one that ideally is passing the sound through untouched 99% of the time and only kicking rarely when it has to.
> 
> What they are trying to explain though is that when you do that you are also hiding problems in the gain staging of your mix and probably establishing bad habits. If some particular instrument is too loud the limiter will be hiding that from you and squashing it’s dynamic range at the same time.
> 
> ...


Where do you find a copy of ice9 now?


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 15, 2020)

Here's one place: https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145531&hilit=dewdman42+ice9#p757888


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## jbuhler (Dec 15, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> Here's one place: https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145531&hilit=dewdman42+ice9#p757888


Thank you!


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## jbuhler (Dec 15, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> Here's one place: https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145531&hilit=dewdman42+ice9#p757888


So is this a 32bit plugin? In any case, Logic evidently won't scan it and other programs won't scan the AU plugin even though the vst shows up. It's in the component folder after installation.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 15, 2020)

no its not 32bit. Make sure the log off and back on again... works fine for me on both Mojave and catalina


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 15, 2020)

ps - Apple started doing some funny stuff where you have to log off and on again in order for newly installed AU plugins to be picked up by LogicPro. But there is a work around to force it through, go to the command line and do this:


```
killall -9 AudioComponentRegistrar
```

Then restart LogicPro, no log off needed


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## nordicguy (Dec 16, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> ps - Apple started doing some funny stuff where you have to log off and on again in order for newly installed AU plugins to be picked up by LogicPro. But there is a work around to force it through, go to the command line and do this:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


Thank you for the tip Dewman42.
Just for my info, this command will tell Logic to check for newly installed/uninstalled plugins but won't erase the "com.apple.audiounits.cache" file, isn't?
It will in fact update it.


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## darkneo57 (Dec 16, 2020)

thanks again for your answer, I'll have to change my nickname to "thankyouman".

take care


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 16, 2020)

nordicguy said:


> Just for my info, this command will tell Logic to check for newly installed/uninstalled plugins but won't erase the "com.apple.audiounits.cache" file, isn't?



No, that command kills the daemon that is responsible for the registration of AUs. Restarting Logic also restarts that daemon.


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