# Are orchestral libraries ever used professionaly?



## thousandfold (Apr 23, 2017)

The title might be a bit abrupt right off the bat, but i've read a lot and I see some things come back a lot. One of these things is the way people use libraries like Albion, Ark, and Symphobia.

Now what i'm on the fence about them is that I always hear alot of praise, but then it's followed by, ''I use it for sketching, coming up with ideas, only use one patch from it, or very much in the background/filler.''

To me, for the price you pay for them that seems a bit steep and I wonder if there's something wrong with them to use in finished products? I understand it will require some other instruments to shape things up like a dedicated string library.

Are there really that much flaws in them that they aren't accepted as something you put more in the foreground with your other instruments?

Edit: As the topic derailed a bit and is ending up in a samples vs real instruments, or a pros and cons discussion. That's not what i'm after.

I mean the type of sample library, Orchestral Libraries. Examples like Albion series, Symphobia series, Metropolis series. Those I wanna talk about.

What I wanna know about them is that i've read a lot of people from allw alks of life in the industry talk about them, but i've got the notion that noone ever ends up using those libraries fully. Either just as sketching, getting ideas, or for just one part of it. 

e.g.: Someone who buys Symphobia for jus tthe multis. Which is all fine, but why spent that much money and not use the rest to it's full right and not just as a very expensive idea sketcher? (And yes multis are hard to make yourself)


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## Phryq (Apr 23, 2017)

I imagine big time composers have real musicians... still can't beat real musicians playing real instruments.

In the middle are the people who can afford Orchestral Tools.

And at the bottom, scroungers using demos and freebie VSTs.

At least that's how I see it.


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## lp59burst (Apr 23, 2017)

An analogy... can you paint a beautiful masterpiece with just a few colors (articulations)? Yes, you can... but, if you want to be Van Gogh you'll need more colors (an orchestra) to paint with...

So, it depends... there are just some things VI's can't do... so, if you need one/any of them then, "no"... if not, then... "maybe..."


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## thousandfold (Apr 23, 2017)

Afcourse I understand that. Though I mean the professionals that aren't big enough to hire real musicians. Yet buy an orchestral library, but never end up using it, or just very little of it in a finished product. I mean, it sounds a bit crazy to me that you're paying that much for a sketching tool or not use a big part of it. 

This might not go for everyone and perhaps the happy customers who us eit more i nthei final products aren't as active as those who feel their orchestral library lacks usefuklness beyond sketches.


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## Zhao Shen (Apr 23, 2017)

Yes. It's more prevalent in video games than films.

"Professional" is a pretty loose term to use. It just means you make a living off of it. Anyone right now can choose to go make a living off of composing and be a professional. If you're talking about the AAA project composers, then that's a different story.


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## C.R. Rivera (Apr 23, 2017)

lp59burst said:


> An analogy... can you paint a beautiful masterpiece with just a few colors (articulations)? Yes, you can... but, if you want to be Van Gogh you'll need more colors (an orchestra) to paint with...
> 
> So, it depends... there are just some things VI's can't do... so, if you need one/any of them then, "no"... if not, then... "maybe..."




However, how many VI'ers have cut off an ear to stiffle the noise/voices in their head?


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## JPQ (Apr 23, 2017)

I bet some low budget things like some documents use only sample libraries etc.


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## Joram (Apr 23, 2017)

Yes, they do.


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## MA-Simon (Apr 23, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> Check out mad max fury road


Which reminds me. Still have not seen it. Tragedy.


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## tomaslobosk (Apr 23, 2017)

James Horner's Avatar score is full of ProjectSAM True Strike


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## thousandfold (Apr 23, 2017)

Ah yes I like Junkie XL, but I don't just mean samples in general. I ment just the orchestral ones. Albion series, Symphobia series, Ark Series etc.

Afcourse plenty of samples are used professionally, but whenever i see talks about Albion or Symphobia it's usually with what I stated in my original post. 

It would be pretty silly to assume noone uses samples in finished products, because that they do, but while everyone loves putting beautiful libraries like Cinematic Strings and Spitfire's ymphonic Strings right inthe middle of attention in their songs. What happens to those that have Albion, Symphobia, Ark in their arsenal?

I never quite see a lot of, or any, about someone saying. ''Well I used most of Albion, or everything I used 90% of it is Symphobia.''

Again, I know that these orch. libraries aren't made to be everything, but i just ge tthe idea that htey're not even used that much besides demo's, sketches, or some small patches from them. 

Hmm.. it's like you bought a very expensive dinner, but you're only eating a quarter of it.


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## MA-Simon (Apr 23, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> What happens to those that have Albion, Symphobia, Ark in their arsenal?


Well most have probably moved onto newer libraries with more possibilities, like individual String Sections and deeply Sampled Instruments. If you can get by with less for a cue, why not use a albion as your tool.


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## MatFluor (Apr 23, 2017)

As far as I've read and heard - Libraries are fairly common also in high-end productions.

Mostly e.g. the VIs are overdubbed with real musicians of course, but to give a little edgyness or fill up (I mean - hiring a 80 person violins section isn't easy, so you have 50 and fill up with your VI)


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## JohnG (Apr 23, 2017)

Yes, 100%. Many movie, TV, game, and trailer pieces use orchestral samples. Many of them also have live players, but people might be surprised to know just how many all-electronic pieces (or 90%) are both successful (used in movies or advertising) and even quite popular on iTunes and elsewhere.


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## ohernie (Apr 23, 2017)

I think the correct question is whether they are used professionally, but rather whether they are used to turn out "product", as in finished pieces that clients pay for.


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## prodigalson (Apr 23, 2017)

i think there's a nuance being lost in the question. I think the OP specifically means orchestral ENSEMBLE libraries (as opposed to orchestral libraries). 

Right? You're just asking if "pros" use albion and symphobia style ENSEMBLE patches?


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## thousandfold (Apr 23, 2017)

Yes exactly, just the orchestral ensembles. Albion, Symphobia, Metropolis and the likes. These are expnsive libraries and I know people who bought them praise them, but my question is why I see so much just using it as a ''sketch'' library, or background filler. I assume not everyone who buys these has the arsenal the really big pro's have. Most smaller pro's have to use samples. 

While it's common sense that you have atleast some dedicated samples like strings and horns to double up. That is something I understand, but I just feel like paying that much money for something just to make ideas, sketches and filler which you'd fill out with other samples later on seems odd to me. I would love to get osme insight on that.

And yes, this is not for the big pro's who can afford live musicians to play their sampled demo's. Those are a whole lot further down the road.


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## Brendon Williams (Apr 23, 2017)

The short answer is all the time! Even projects that hire live orchestra use samples to beef up the final product, especially for percussion.


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## kurtvanzo (Apr 23, 2017)

I think the answer has been yes for a while now, but when a composer is dealing with a paying client he is reluctant to say so on any but the lowest budget projects. Why? Because it might lead the client to think he's overpaying for the composer, or that the end product is not "professional"- perception in the business is half the battle. Worse yet it can lead clients to question "Are live musicians really necessary?" Of course they are, but convincing a client that has a hard time telling the difference but has to pay the bill anyway might be difficult. So will that same composer admit to it on a public forum and risk the client or other future clients seeing it? I think you can answer that yourself.


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## thousandfold (Apr 23, 2017)

Fair point, not every client knows the difference in samples and live musicians and what the worth is of using those two types, but the topic kind of derailed from what I wanted infromation about. It certainly wasn't supposed to be a discussion of samples versus live musicians! hahaha


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## resound (Apr 23, 2017)

I recently did some orchestration for a big budget film and the composer used a lot of Symphobia multi patches. The multis were eventually recorded by live players, but the samples were mixed in as well for maximum punch. 

I often see Symphobia FX patches mixed in with the final score as well.


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## thousandfold (Apr 23, 2017)

Yeh, I did catch that the multi's are very well received by Symphobia, but you did describe one of the situations I ment exactly! 

If you're not too big yet and sample libraries don't come flying in your hands like nothing it would be a no go for me to spend hundres for just.. in this case.. multi's. As far as i know for Symphobia it seems fine and jut the legato's seem a minus for it.


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## resound (Apr 23, 2017)

It depends on what kind of music you are writing. The multi patches can come in very handy when you need to write big, bombastic action music and you are limited on time. That's what they are essentially built to do.


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## thousandfold (Apr 23, 2017)

But what about the rest? 

Thats what i wanna find out. I've read hundreds of posts of people from all walks in the industry that say they like a certain particulair part of this ensemble orchestra, and another part of that ensemble orchestra. That's not the topic I wanna start again, because there's enough already that talk about the strenghts and weaknesses of Albion, Symphobia, Metropolis and whichever else there are.

What caught my eye was that i see more people using certain parts of those ensemble libraries, but I almos tnever see someone saying they lov eto use almost all of it in their production. 

Like the multi one. Why buy Symphobia just for multi's? They're good and they're hard to make yourself for sure, but you still spend a lot for just that. Or why so many people use Albion just for sketching, but end up using other sample libraries to fill out everything used by Albion.

The way I see it is that if I were to ask: ''Who uses Albion, Symphobia, Metropolis for more than half of the composition in your tracks and use it as your go to in many of your projects IN the finished tracks?'' I wouldn't see any hands


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## pmcrockett (Apr 23, 2017)

I think you're discounting the value of a sketching library for a lot of people, though. Anything that improves or streamlines your writing process is potentially worth the money even if you don't use it in the final mix.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 23, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> But what about the rest?
> 
> Thats what i wanna find out. I've read hundreds of posts of people from all walks in the industry that say they like a certain particulair part of this ensemble orchestra, and another part of that ensemble orchestra. That's not the topic I wanna start again, because there's enough already that talk about the strenghts and weaknesses of Albion, Symphobia, Metropolis and whichever else there are.
> 
> ...



Well that's pretty specific 

I use Albions II to IV pretty baldly in final mixes, where Albion One and Legacy (though as mentioned, primarily excellent-sounding sketch libraries) I often use to layer with the East West Hollywood in the final mock up.

I'm pretty sure the only Albion One instrument I've used sans layering in final mockups is their eminently useful spiccato/staccato patch. I've gotten terrific results with that one, both for fast and lower-paced projects.


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## resound (Apr 23, 2017)

That's because there is no "one size fits all" orchestral library. Each library has its own strengths and weaknesses, and typically work well in one or two specific styles. But it would be impossible to create one library that will work for every situation, every style of music, every workflow. It seems more and more sample libraries are focusing on putting out products that are geared towards a specific thing, and does that one thing very well. I think that's actually beneficial for us as composers because we can pick and choose products based on the type of music we write, and how we like to work. If we want to be diverse as composers, we just have to have all of these different tools at our disposal. That's the reality of it.


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## thousandfold (Apr 23, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Well that's pretty specific
> 
> I use Albions II to IV pretty baldly in final mixes, where Albion One and Legacy (though as mentioned, primarily excellent-sounding sketch libraries) I often use to layer with the East West Hollywood in the final mock up.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the only Albion One instrument I've used sans layering in final mockups is their eminently useful spiccato/staccato patch. I've gotten terrific results with that one, both for fast and lower-paced projects.



Did you know this before hand that you would never end up using a lot of the library in final mockups before you bought Albion?


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## thousandfold (Apr 23, 2017)

resound said:


> That's because there is no "one size fits all" orchestral library. Each library has its own strengths and weaknesses, and typically work well in one or two specific styles. But it would be impossible to create one library that will work for every situation, every style of music, every workflow. It seems more and more sample libraries are focusing on putting out products that are geared towards a specific thing, and does that one thing very well. I think that's actually beneficial for us as composers because we can pick and choose products based on the type of music we write, and how we like to work. If we want to be diverse as composers, we just have to have all of these different tools at our disposal. That's the reality of it.



I know, that's what I said. That's not what i'm questioning. It will require other sample libraries aswell. I'm just questioning that after you bought one of those orchestral libraries and end up using so little of it or just a specific part, or not at all and it's just a sketch library. That's what i'm interested about.


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## resound (Apr 23, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> I know, that's what I said. That's not what i'm questioning. It will require other sample libraries aswell. I'm just questioning that after you bought one of those orchestral libraries and end up using so little of it or just a specific part, or not at all and it's just a sketch library. That's what i'm interested about.


I bought Symphobia knowing it would be a sketch library, but I learned that from reading posts/reviews here on the forum. For me, and many others, it is worth the price just in the time that it saves. But I think that's the value in a forum like this, it helps you to research libraries before you buy them so you know what you are getting.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 23, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> Did you know this before hand that you would never end up using a lot of the library in final mockups before you bought Albion?



Albion One, yes I expected that. I expect less of most ensemble-recorded sample libraries, because for me East West Hollywood is the one to beat. Especially for people who know something about engineering.

That said, I have used EWH extensively with Albion One and Legacy layered, and gotten what was for me very satisfying final mockups. There seems to be a somewhat complementary timbre to each library (for example, the more airy and roomy Albion One just seems to work in certain contexts over a dry EWH instrument/ensemble).

Please know this in the context of my own music and what works for my own, very personal vision.


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## thousandfold (Apr 23, 2017)

I regard everyone's opinions here as their own, but that doens't take away my curiousity. For me the reason to ask this, is because I can sink money in it, but only for a few carefully picked libraries. So, much of Albion or Symphobia for example will end up in the final mock up as I can only get so many other instruments to complement it like Cinematic Strings.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 23, 2017)

Some film composers (actually most of the famous ones) have their own customized sample libraries that are superior to the ones out in the market. My professor once invited James Newton Howard to come speak at a seminar and he said a lot of instruments he used in tracks he made for film actually weren't actually recorded


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## thousandfold (Apr 23, 2017)

Yes, JunkieXL was the first for me when he started his first composing adventures that he recorded and gotten a lot of samples he made himself or were specially crafted, but that's for another topic.


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## nulautre (Apr 23, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> WITNESS MEEEE


I live, I die. I LIVE AGAIN!


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## Ruffian Price (Apr 23, 2017)

resound said:


> I often see Symphobia FX patches mixed in with the final score as well.


Or on their own, honestly. I've heard those goddamn trombone slides from Symphobia 1 way too often in TV and game scores. There's also one sound from the full orchestral rips patch that gets used all the time in horror stuff.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 23, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> Yes, JunkieXL was the first for me when he started his first composing adventures that he recorded and gotten a lot of samples he made himself or were specially crafted, but that's for another topic.



he actually still uses cinematic strings.


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## thousandfold (Apr 23, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> he actually still uses cinematic strings.



He suses a whole damn lot. Gave me a headache just looking at all the libraries he has, haha


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## NoamL (Apr 23, 2017)

As far as I know (some experience assisting various composers):

Television scores are _*mostly*_ virtual. There are exceptions like Family Guy, and LOST back in the day. VI scores are sometimes sweetened by recording soloists in the composer's studio or remotely. There's a lot of live cello in Game Of Thrones in front of what I'm fairly confident are VI strings (except in the big setpieces, those sound like a medium sized Eastern European orchestra). But the score is generally "in the box" and the bounce out of the composer's DAW is what goes in the show.

Commercials go through multiple rounds of approvals and revisions (sometimes a surprisingly high number) and then go to recording sessions. Often the sessions are pretty small "sweetening" sessions, like 12 strings, that then get layered with the VI. Brass, percussion, winds, and choir don't get called for commercials quite as often, unless it's a really big production.

Videogames, I'm not sure as I haven't assisted any VG composers, but it seems that recording genuine sized orchestras is catching on for flagship videogames on the PS4, the One etc and the biggest PC games like Civ V.

Film has to go through presentations, which means a mockup stage. But most composers seek to re-record _as much as possible_ of the score. Custom samples sometimes stay in, but generic orchestral samples usually don't, the only exception I can think of is when the VIs are better at doing "impossible" writing. Something like Don Davis's Matrix scores where the brass samples add punch and definition to the crazy action cues. I'd be surprised if there were any VI strings at all in Junkie's final mix of Fury Road. It's all just for mockups, the real strings are a million times better.

WRT "are libraries worth it?" - any library is worth it if it helps you "win over" the director in a presentation. The director doesn't know or care if it's Symphobia or Berlin Strings. Composers go with the sounds that get close to what they have in their heads.


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## Svyato (Apr 23, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Yes, 100%. Many movie, TV, game, and trailer pieces use orchestral samples. Many of them also have live players, but people might be surprised to know just how many all-electronic pieces (or 90%) are both successful (used in movies or advertising) and even quite popular on iTunes and elsewhere.



I'd agree with you. Skyrim's score (composed by Jeremy Soule) is 95% made with VI (Jeremy Soule's statement on Fb)


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## robgb (Apr 23, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> The title might be a bit abrupt right off the bat, but i've read a lot and I see some things come back a lot. One of these things is the way people use libraries like Albion, Ark, and Symphobia.
> 
> Now what i'm on the fence about them is that I always hear alot of praise, but then it's followed by, ''I use it for sketching, coming up with ideas, only use one patch from it, or very much in the background/filler.''


Watch a dramatic television show. You'll hear plenty of string libraries at work.


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## NoamL (Apr 23, 2017)

Also it should go without saying, practically no composer is lucky enough to do it this way anymore:



They all do presentations with mockup scores. Even Hans Zimmer, Danny Elfman, Alexandre Desplat etc.

Actually scratch that, I remember Patrick Doyle said in some interview about _Brave_ that a presentation wasn't working so he just sat down at the piano and played something and it got approved then and there. And he said something like that "Small wonder, in the days of silent film that's how they did it! One guy at a piano!"

There's something magic about live music next to film


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## resound (Apr 23, 2017)

Marvel's Agents of SHIELD is another TV show that has live recorded orchestra every episode. And the newest God of War video game has live orchestra including an Icelandic choir.


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## afterlight82 (Apr 23, 2017)

There is almost certainly some of the sample strings in Mad Max, even though there is also live strings. True of many scores. One can tuck a bit of sample in for lots of reasons - extra weight, bite, for emphasis. The majority of mixers I've worked with do this. There's no rule that says you must only use the live tracks...


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## Rohann (Apr 23, 2017)

A surprising amount of AAA games don't use real orchestras (i.e. every Elder Scrolls game Jeremy Soule has worked on was almost exclusively VI scored, at least for Skyrim and earlier). There are some select exclusives that at least have a few tracks with full orchestras (i.e. Bloodborne, Legend of Zelda), but there's a good deal of VI usage. As for those particular libraries, I think the reason many probably stray from using them exclusively is that it's much easier to make something sound unique by adding basic effects or layering libraries. My professional composing experience is incredibly limited compared to many here, but simply from observation, I don't think there's anything wrong with using largely those libraries, but it would likely become a problem if instantly recognizable.
However, for TV scoring or the like, as others mentioned, whatever is fastest probably wins for a lot of shows. If you consider that some shows have 46 minutes of continuous music going through _every_ episode for one of those "20 episodes a season" shows, I doubt the VI being recognizable is the highest thing on the list of concerns.


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## bryla (Apr 23, 2017)

As an orchestrator I'm brought in to work on how to replace samples. I get Logic files with all kinds of sample libraries, ensemble patches, fx patches, solo instruments ranging from all the big kahuna libraries to even Logics EXS library!

The great composers know their tools.

They know how to get from A to B in the fastest way. That sometimes means buying a specific library for a sketching patch or resorting to one particular way they have always tracked a specific instrument. 

The point of A is cluelessness and point B is happy director. Happy director equals relieved composer.


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## MatFluor (Apr 23, 2017)

Little offtopic: @anthraxsnax What Horns do you use in that Video?


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## ctsai89 (Apr 23, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> Sample modeling



 Obviously..


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## DSmolken (Apr 23, 2017)

With something like MA1, I wonder if even a big-budget production could replace it with real instruments. Augment it, sure, but actually recording that many cimbassi and bass trombones, which are not terribly common instruments? Would it be hard to find enough players?


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## Svyato (Apr 24, 2017)

V.I. + humans solists = orchestral realism + human emotions = greatest deal


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## Steve Martin (Apr 24, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> I get headaches when I look at all my libraries and then I do some quick math on how much I've spent, and how much more I plan to spend
> 
> you're looking at it from the wrong perspective TBH... I'm 100% a hobbyist.
> 
> ...



that looks like absolute and total fun. Love the video!


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## thousandfold (Apr 24, 2017)

Haha, but uhm.. well.. the topic is still going off-topic on my much more simple curiousity I wanted to start this. I think I should've used a more tactile title


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## Selfinflicted (Apr 24, 2017)

The orchestral libraries you seem to keep referring back to were specifically designed as ensemble libraries, for the most part. Albion One has some nice stuff like violins recorded in octaves, because being recorded that way sounds better and more realistic, generally, than layering a sampled violin 1 with sampled violin 2. Same goes for woodwind patches were the winds are recorded together at the same time versus individual patches layered in a DAW. (Albion I/One has a great celli and basses in octaves patch, by the way).

The problem is, good orchestration is seldom just layering things all the way through. So, aside from the extremely useful process of using these libraries for sketching (the advantage being having the range of the whole antiphonal section at your hands, instead of just the violins), these libraries can be very useful for specific choices. (they can also be very useful for getting an approximate sound very quickly if you need to send a mockup to someone for a general idea fast - which happens all the time). But, no - I would not generally use these libraries straight through an entire cue/piece if it is reasonably complex - maybe if it is just a bunch of pads. Limiting yourself to doubled sounds all the time is just bad orchestration and it sounds like it. Especially with the winds - I want to choose how my voicings are voiced - I don't want a Kontakt patch choosing that for me. But, if I want to send a mockup to someone and don't need all the specific detail in there, sure - they can be great because they're fast.

There are certainly examples of people going and making good sounding pieces with these libraries, or even the CineSamples CineOrch lite library. But, they clearly can't do everything. If you're going to do that you have to write to the strengths of the libraries and avoid their limitations - this is true of any library. And that is why people use a whole bunch of things. Good orchestral music has a lot of detail is incredibly hard to mimic well. If you want the be free to write what you want, then the more tools at your disposal, the merrier you will be in that regard.

And then there is the consideration of when these libraries came out. I used to use Symphobia a fair amount when it first came out. That was ages ago and there are things out now that sound better to me with greater flexibility. This technology will always be changing, so you might get use out of something now, and then something better comes along.

I've been working with this stuff for over 20 years, and man has the technology changed. I just accept that it is a major investment, and coming from a background of live music, I have certain expectations of how things should sound. Because of that quest, I've bought a lot of libraries that I didn't end up using very much.

What I've ended up using a lot of for orchestral libraries - LASS, CineWinds, and CineBrass. LASS is a bear to learn and get setup right, but then it can do things other libraries can't come close to because of the individual control of timing and tuning within a given section. CineWinds and CineBrass are just very fast to work with. If I were going to just buy 3 orchestral libraries, they would be it. They are what I use the most of. Next string library in use is Spitfire Chamber Strings and then their brass library - but, I honestly haven't done a lot of brass stuff since the revamp, so maybe Spitfire would take it now for me. Not sure.

That's my experience, anyway.


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## thousandfold (Apr 24, 2017)

Selfinflicted said:


> The orchestral libraries you seem to keep referring back to were specifically designed as ensemble libraries, for the most part. Albion One has some nice stuff like violins recorded in octaves, because being recorded that way sounds better and more realistic, generally, than layering a sampled violin 1 with sampled violin 2. Same goes for woodwind patches were the winds are recorded together at the same time versus individual patches layered in a DAW. (Albion I/One has a great celli and basses in octaves patch, by the way).
> 
> The problem is, good orchestration is seldom just layering things all the way through. So, aside from the extremely useful process of using these libraries for sketching (the advantage being having the range of the whole antiphonal section at your hands, instead of just the violins), these libraries can be very useful for specific choices. (they can also be very useful for getting an approximate sound very quickly if you need to send a mockup to someone for a general idea fast - which happens all the time). But, no - I would not generally use these libraries straight through an entire cue/piece if it is reasonably complex - maybe if it is just a bunch of pads. Limiting yourself to doubled sounds all the time is just bad orchestration and it sounds like it. Especially with the winds - I want to choose how my voicings are voiced - I don't want a Kontakt patch choosing that for me. But, if I want to send a mockup to someone and don't need all the specific detail in there, sure - they can be great because they're fast.
> 
> ...



I would say that age might not be a real issue. EWQL is very old, VSL is even older and they are still used and especially EW is still suggested to new and old professionals. Good sound samples will last alifetime and it's just the engine that needs an' update and I know that Symphobia rolls out updates each year still to update their products and so does Albion. Metropolis and other Ensembles probably do aswell, but I can't speak for them.

But.. as you said. You've got a fair amount of experience so you got your moneys worth out of Symphobia. Did you use it a lot in your final mock ups? Afcourse I will not use an orchestral library solely by itself and there's gonna be dedidcated string, bass, and wind libraries. 

I am just kind of worried that my idea of buying an orchestral library that I use for half the mockups, while 3 or 4 other dedicated instrument libraries top it off might not be a good idea, BUT.. it could also be that I happened to read alot of information from people like you, with years of experience are already proficient with more complicated libraries. They have afcourse got the experience to leave the orchestral libraries behind and use the big guns.


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## Selfinflicted (Apr 24, 2017)

For me - some libraries have certainly aged. I have EWQL and haven't touched it in years. Sounds good, but again, you have to write to the library and there is just more flexible stuff out their that is faster to work with and also sounds great. Same goes for VSL. And those manufactures have put out new libraries as technology changes, which should tell you something.

FWIW - when you say 'orchestral libraries' to most people that is probably going to mean libraries of instruments that make up and orchestra. In your OP you seem to be specifically talking about orchestral ensemble/section libraries. These types of libraries will have limited application by design.

When I know samples are going to make their way into a final thing I will take that into account in writing. If my initial idea is something that can't be done convincingly with samples then I will adjust something so it sounds acceptable. On a budget, some live over the top of samples goes a long long way.

Personally, when I'm writing/sketching, I'm writing and I do that first, separately from mocking things up. Then I think about how I want it executed in the orchestra, and then I do a mockup. I don't start fiddling with samples while I'm trying to write. It's faster to keep the processes separate and more focused.

I still use some Symphobia and Alb One, but not that much. Symphobia - some of the strings and brass stuff is good and I'd probably still use if I didn't have some of the other things I mentioned. Like I said, really not a fan of ensemble wind patches - useless. Symphobia has a lot of extended technique stuff, clusters, microtonal effects, glissandi, etc. But, by now a ton of people have been using those same samples everywhere. The reboot of Albion One I haven't spent enough time with - some things look like nice improvements in the GUI, but I've been too busy to really delve in, to be fair to Spitfire. One thing to bare in mind is that those libraries (Symphobia and Albion One) are of the large variety. That has a specific use, but I don't use a large sized orchestra on everything orchestral - that gets old to me. Of the Albions, I was using Albion II strings more than Albion I. They are a little smaller and have better dynamics for most situations. There is just a weird volume bump/dynamic transition at a certain point. Otherwise, they sound great. Really nice for pads, etc.

You get by with what you have. I certainly don't regret getting Symphobia or Albion One. Albion One also has some nice percussion and then synth stuff, etc.


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## thousandfold (Apr 24, 2017)

Selfinflicted said:


> For me - some libraries have certainly aged. I have EWQL and haven't touched it in years. Sounds good, but again, you have to write to the library and there is just more flexible stuff out their that is faster to work with and also sounds great. Same goes for VSL. And those manufactures have put out new libraries as technology changes, which should tell you something.
> 
> FWIW - when you say 'orchestral libraries' to most people that is probably going to mean libraries of instruments that make up and orchestra. In your OP you seem to be specifically talking about orchestral ensemble/section libraries. These types of libraries will have limited application by design.
> 
> ...



Yeh, it got a bit lost in translation about the ensemble things, that's why I just made sure I added the big names like Symphobia, Albion etc there so it would be clearer what I ment.

I guess you could also see it as a good thing that the samples have been used a lot. They will sound more familiar to the ears of non-composers and there should be more knowledge on how to get the best out of the patches.

But for me they are planned to be not just for sketching, but also the groundwork for mock-ups. They are gonna play a big role and the short-comings will be filled in by other sample libraries. That the woodwinds are not the greatest is a new one for me for example. I knew that in Symphobia the legato isn't well regarded and for that I would need a string library like Cinematic Strings to fill that short-coming.

Especially Lumina and Loegria are interesting as they focus so much on the more gentle side of composing and for me I wouldn't require a lot of additional sample libraries to make either of those two work.


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## JohnG (Apr 24, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> in Symphobia the legato isn't well regarded and for that I would need a string library like Cinematic Strings to fill that short-coming.



If you really want legato. I usually find it's more hassle than it's worth. It seems to affect timing too much and it's either too loud or too quiet.

If your question is ensemble patches and libraries exclusively, the answer to your OP is still an emphatic "yes." Everyone here has heard those Symphobia FX patches 1,000 times in TV and even movies. Definitely in games. They are all over the place, sometimes not even disguised, but right out in front.


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## muziksculp (Apr 24, 2017)

Hi,

I think as the virtual orchestral libraries we have at our disposal get better, and better with time, it will be possible to produce completely professional grade orchestral scores with them, especially when we add one or more real instrument performances to the mix. i.e. Cello, Violin, Oboe, Flute, Trumpet,...etc. 

Virtual Orch. Libraries are also frequently used to enhance a real orchestral performance, which is quite an interesting aspect of how the two media (Real and Virtual) can merge and assist each other in interesting ways. 

Here is an article I came across about combining Virtual and Acoustic Instruments you might find interesting, and/or helpful.

https://www.puremix.net/blog/combin...tm_medium=email&utm_content=SonibleGiveawayNL

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## thousandfold (Apr 25, 2017)

So, touching on the age thing. Albion and Sympphobia are quite old, Metropolis i'm not quite sure, I know Ark 2 is brand new. It's not like there's a new player in the orchestral ensemble every year that does things better or improved over the existing. I kind of understand why Symphobia, Metropolis, and Albion tend to be more sketch libraries for a lot of well established composers.

While the notion that they are used to ridiculous amounts is kind of demotivating to have one of them.. then again.. there's only so much you can do with strings, right? If it really has to be different then you come out with NOVO like products.

It's still for me as a beginner a perfect way to establish some good groundwork and not necessarily as a time saver for me as i'm not at that stage yet. After that I will afcourse layer over more specific sample libraries.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 25, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> While the notion that they are used to ridiculous amounts is kind of demotivating to have one of them.. then again.. there's only so much you can do with strings, right?



There is a TON of things you can do with strings, that's why so many people argue for them being the most expressive instrument(s) of all. The potential with the instrument still amazes me, I've seen people play some of the most terrifying and beautiful things on a Violin, Viola, Cello, ensembles as well.

One of the first things you learn about strings when studying orchestration is that they're perfect for what producer's today call pads. The reason being that using a lot of strings in a composition doesn't tire the listener's ear like the vast majority of instruments inevitably due (especially, say, brass and oboes). There's a reason they're used so much.

But you might have already known this stuff so please forgive my tangent.


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## thousandfold (Apr 25, 2017)

Strings are wonderful and limitless, but when touching specifically on orchestral ensmeble libraries it's hard to say, ''No I don't want Albion, Ark, or Symphobia etc.'' as there aren't a lot of other options that do what I want from those. Once we are talking about endles spossibilieties with strings then it will require other libraries that are focuses on just strings as an orch. ensemble can only do so much.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 25, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> Strings are wonderful and limitless, but when touching specifically on orchestral ensmeble libraries it's hard to say, ''No I don't want Albion, Ark, or Symphobia etc.'' as there aren't a lot of other options that do what I want from those. Once we are talking about endles spossibilieties with strings then it will require other libraries that are focuses on just strings as an orch. ensemble can only do so much.



Good points, but I honestly think if just one, go for the East West Hollywood. It's hard to go wrong, unless you simply want instant gratification with less flexibility. It's my desert island string ensemble (I would hope I could bring my QL Spaces reverb with me on the desert island, as I make amazing string symphony sounds when combined with my Hollywood Strings!  ).

Too bad my actual music sucks lol!


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## Voider (Apr 25, 2017)

I were at the cinema two weeks ago to see Ghost in the shell, and it showed all those big hollywood movie trailers for upcoming films before. In one those name I don't remember, but some middle age fantasy setting, I am pretty sure to have recognized the $99 vocalize library by heavyocity. So nothing is impossible :D I think that there are lot of films that have orchestra library soundtracks, Junkie XL does for example. (If he doesn't just compose on the computer to give it to a real orchestra afterwards, but I don't think so)


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## Selfinflicted (Apr 25, 2017)

@thousandfold - I should note that I do not have Lumina, just Symphob 1&2. Nothing against Lumina - It just didn't interest me at the time when it came out because of what I already had (a ton of stuff). But, it does have a much better list of solo instruments, etc and it seems to be a more recent approach to the orchestral sample game (re my comment about I and II having been out of a long time).

If you're just starting out, know that you'll be adding tools as you go. There are lots of decent tools out there to get you started, and you'll come to use them less as you add more things to you arsenal. But, don't let that deter you from diving in. The Symphobias do sound good and are incredibly quick and easy to work with (which is a great plus). Just don't expect them to do everything under the sun - nothing can. I have probably gotten more use out of the symphobias than Albion One (narrowly), but you can't go wrong with either to start out. That is a tough call, as they're both good and useful.

My earlier comments were more addressing your specific question of why people don't use them for 80% of a piece in final product. I think that is just the ensemble approach. I have certainly done entire cues/pieces with both/either of them independently. It's just that as I've added more libraries I've found betters ways of doing things to my liking. You work with what you have and you want to learn what it does and doesn't do well.

EW composer cloud is just a different animal, as that is more of the usual/non-ensemble type of orchestral library (individual instruments or groups). Personally, I hate their software. Others are fine with it. If I were just starting out I would probably be willing to overlook it at those prices. I did use a lot of EW products on projects when I was more willing to put up with their software. There are just better things these days in my book.

Regarding the wind patches for ensemble libraries - that's a personal thing for me, but winds are the most individual of instruments. They're pretty much all different. It isn't like the strings where they just have variations of range and size. The winds all have different dynamic contours, different sound production techniques, different overtones - doubling them all the time sounds like an organ. That said, Lumina looks to have a nice list of better options for winds and solo instruments.

In short - ensemble orchestral libraries aren't the only approach, but Symphobia and Albion One are well worth getting if you want to go that route (and it is a good place to get started, for sure), and also for getting started in general.


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## nulautre (Apr 25, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


>




Sidenote: checked out your youtube channel... Guitar/WoW/Virtual Orchestrations... We should be friends


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## Anders Bru (Apr 25, 2017)

Voider said:


> I were at the cinema two weeks ago to see Ghost in the shell, and it showed all those big hollywood movie trailers for upcoming films before. In one those name I don't remember, but some middle age fantasy setting, I am pretty sure to have recognized the $99 vocalize library by heavyocity. So nothing is impossible :D I think that there are lot of films that have orchestra library soundtracks, Junkie XL does for example. (If he doesn't just compose on the computer to give it to a real orchestra afterwards, but I don't think so)


The Wonder Woman trailer is filled with Vocalise


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 25, 2017)

Anders Bru said:


> The Wonder Woman trailer is filled with Vocalise




CAN'T WAIT! She was the only part of Batman vs Superman I even liked.


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## Voider (Apr 25, 2017)

Anders Bru said:


> The Wonder Woman trailer is filled with Vocalise





Was probably that movie, even if I don't remember this trailer. Or there are already two movies about to release that make use of it :D


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## Niklas (Apr 25, 2017)

Trailer music is an excellent example where the vast majority are exclusively made by VIs. It's more or less expected by the companies nowadays. I write and sell trailer music myself and 90% of the orchestral stuff is Ark 1 til the very end.


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## neblix (Apr 25, 2017)

If it sounds good, a composer will use it.

Not much more to it.


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## bosone (Apr 25, 2017)

you are fogetting all the symphonic metal bands that cannot afford an orchestra!


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## Niklas (Apr 26, 2017)

bosone said:


> you are fogetting all the symphonic metal bands that cannot afford an orchestra!



Haha guilty to this one aswell..


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 26, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> Check out mad max fury road
> 
> He actually started making videos about how he made it, yes - software



Is that a finished score, or a mockup for later recording by an orchestra?


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## thousandfold (Apr 26, 2017)

So, the answer to my original question as I accidently created a Virtual versus Real discussion which is partly my fault due wording basicly is. Albion, Symphobia, Metropolis and other orchestral ensembles are useful, but since they've been around a long time they're not that interesting for a lot of use to seasoned composers, but for beginning composers it's something worth to put your money in if you don't have a whole lot yet and to get your use out of it until you are moving on to more complicated libraries.

And aslong as you can stand that some of them have been used a million times. Although I think that's something composers will hear, but your average listeener doesn't.


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## jononotbono (Apr 26, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> Metropolis



M Ark 1 only came out last year and the Albion One reboot (with completely newly recorded samples) also came out last year. They are brand new libraries.


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## thousandfold (Apr 26, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> M Ark 1 only came out last year and the Albion One reboot (with completely newly recorded samples) also came out last year. They are brand new libraries.



I knew Ark 2 was very recent, but I didn't know Ark 1 was that recent aswell. For Albion wasn't it more of a software/interface revamp and better programming? Aswell as something Symphobia does (which also rolls out updates) for their stuff, but less widescale.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 26, 2017)

All new recordings according to Spitfire. That's why there are legacy patches in the Library. 

In regards to usage, even if you move on to more detailed libraries you can still use the ensemble libraries for layering (especially the sound of Air studios with the Albion range).


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 26, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> M the Albion One reboot (with completely newly recorded samples) also came out last year. They are brand new libraries.



Wait...really? I thought I bought Albion One when it came out back in late 2015. I could be wrong...?


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## jononotbono (Apr 26, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> I knew Ark 2 was very recent, but I didn't know Ark 1 was that recent aswell. For Albion wasn't it more of a software/interface revamp and better programming? Aswell as something Symphobia does (which also rolls out updates) for their stuff, but less widescale.



I think M Ark 1 is actually just over a year but it's a very new library. It's not like comparing the age of EWQLSO or something. Albion One was completely re recorded with the exception of some of the legacy patches that are labelled in a Legacy folder.


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## Mars (Apr 26, 2017)

I'm pretty sure there was some True Strike samples in the latest Silvestri soundtrack, Allied. 
It was a bit disturbing and sounded as it was added by someone else, though.


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## jononotbono (Apr 26, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Wait...really? I thought I bought Albion One when it came out back in late 2015. I could be wrong...?



Maybe I have lost track of time but to say Albion One and M ark 1 are old libraries is preposterous really.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 26, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Maybe I have lost track of time but to say Albion One and M ark 1 are old libraries is preposterous really.



I agree, but I don't remember saying anything like that, my friend. Or maybe the quote threw me off. Am I really that dense this morning? To me anything that came out in the last two or three years is basically new.


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## jononotbono (Apr 26, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I agree, but I don't remember saying anything like that, my friend. Or maybe the quote threw me off. Am I really that dense this morning? To me anything that came out in the last two or three years is basically new.



You didn't say it. I was just speaking out loud. Edirol Orchestral is an old library. EWQLSO is an old library (and still sounds decent actually). That was me speaking out loud again.

I need to get out more. How have 2 years gone by without my brain realising.


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## Selfinflicted (Apr 26, 2017)

I had said that the Symphobias were relatively old tech now (specifically 1 and 2) in reference to the OP's question of why people don't use something like Symphobia for 80% of a track (that was one part of the answer).

To OP - yes, if you don't have a lot of libraries, you should get good use out of Symphobia or Albion One. The more libraries you have the more you'll probably use others as well to carry the load.


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## Niklas (Apr 26, 2017)

Ark 1 and Albion One along with Majestica are the latest among the "all in one" orchestral libs, if I haven't slept under a rock all year. Top of the line samples. Comparing them to Symphobia is unfair, a whole different era.

(Though the strings in Symphobia still kicks everyones ass in some situationes imo)


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## JohnG (Apr 26, 2017)

Age alone doesn't disqualify a library, if it's an orchestral library recorded naturally. However, even the best producers (Nick Phoenix, the Spitfire team etc.) clearly learn as they go, and their more recent libraries have _more_ excellent patches in them than their first efforts.

Moreover, the newer libraries offer far more "stuff you can do." By that I mean that there are maybe 100 things you might do musically with a violin, and the earliest libraries had, maybe 3. Newer libraries have a lot of tiresome complexity in some cases, but in return for that, you get, maybe 10 or 20 musical things you can do with a given instrument.



Niklas said:


> the strings in Symphobia still kicks everyones ass in some situationes imo)



very true @Niklas ^^^

If there are FX built in -- gated snares? -- maybe that can go out of date. And there are individual orchestral effects, which are really like recorded bits of score, that have been used many times. Used all alone, those effects will be recognizable, but not to a lot of people -- maybe 0.0001% of the audience? Though possibly over-used, they can still be very effective.

I use Hollywood Strings in every production, and I think it's at least six years old. Mind you, I have lots of libraries, but there is good stuff everywhere.

[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## Mike Fox (Apr 26, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> I get headaches when I look at all my libraries and then I do some quick math on how much I've spent, and how much more I plan to spend
> 
> you're looking at it from the wrong perspective TBH... I'm 100% a hobbyist.
> 
> ...



Cool video! Sounds great! What brass is being used here?


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## thousandfold (Apr 26, 2017)

I wasn't specifically going about sampled sounds that get old, but the engine and interface can ge told pretty fast, especially if you look at how fast Kontakt is going.

But even Albion isn't that old, it's just a weird feeling that feels like it's been around forever, haha. I guess that's a good sign.


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## jaminjamesp (May 3, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> I wasn't specifically going about sampled sounds that get old, but the engine and interface can ge told pretty fast, especially if you look at how fast Kontakt is going.
> 
> But even Albion isn't that old, it's just a weird feeling that feels like it's been around forever, haha. I guess that's a good sign.



I believe I remember reading/watching an interview with Hans Zimmer where he mentioned using string samples to augment orchestras when it wasn't feasible to record sections as large as the sound that was needed.


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## Smikes77 (May 3, 2017)

I really am trying to find that interview where Danny Elfmann said he kept most samples but replaced them with a real choir, and I`m sure it was Alice. Could be wrong, but I don`t think so.


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## Anders Bru (May 3, 2017)

Smikes77 said:


> I really am trying to find that interview where Danny Elfmann said he kept most samples but replaced them with a real choir, and I`m sure it was Alice. Could be wrong, but I don`t think so.


I believe you mean this interview with VSL:


At 6:10 he goes through what parts of a mock-up would stay in the final mix, and mentions he would leave the "fake" pizzicatos in order to get a fuller sound out of a string section. He also says that synths and his own percussion stays in the final mix.


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## Smikes77 (May 3, 2017)

Anders Bru said:


> I believe you mean this interview with VSL:
> 
> 
> At 6:10 he goes through what parts of a mock-up would stay in the final mix, and mentions he would leave the "fake" pizzicatos in order to get a fuller sound out of a string section. He also says that synths and his own percussion stays in the final mix.




Thank you!


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## Rohann (May 3, 2017)

Selfinflicted said:


> The problem is, good orchestration is seldom just layering things all the way through. So, aside from the extremely useful process of using these libraries for sketching (the advantage being having the range of the whole antiphonal section at your hands, instead of just the violins), these libraries can be very useful for specific choices. (they can also be very useful for getting an approximate sound very quickly if you need to send a mockup to someone for a general idea fast - which happens all the time). But, no - I would not generally use these libraries straight through an entire cue/piece if it is reasonably complex - maybe if it is just a bunch of pads. * Limiting yourself to doubled sounds all the time is just bad orchestration and it sounds like it. Especially with the winds - I want to choose how my voicings are voiced - I don't want a Kontakt patch choosing that for me.* But, if I want to send a mockup to someone and don't need all the specific detail in there, sure - they can be great because they're fast.


Do you mind expanding on this a bit? Doubled sounds in what sense? Just not sure how Kontakt is choosing this.


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## NoamL (May 3, 2017)

@Rohann The idea is these ensemble libraries have samples recorded from multiple instruments playing simultaneously. For example 1 Flute + 1 Clarinet. So you cannot play a flute solo with this patch, because it will always be the combined sound. 

Another example is the low strings legato patch in most ensemble libraries, is a blend of cellos, violas and basses. But the viola "drops out" when you go from MIDI C2 to B1, naturally because C2 is its lowest note. So if you play a scale or arpeggio in that range, it sounds like the violas are coming in and out randomly, when a real orchestrator likely wouldn't double the cellos with violas if the part wasn't fully playable for violas.

These libraries sound great as long as you're writing exactly the sort of material that _*would have*_ been orchestrated in the way that these samples were arranged. But you have to write around the sharp edges...


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## Rohann (May 3, 2017)

NoamL said:


> @Rohann The idea is these ensemble libraries have samples recorded from multiple instruments playing simultaneously. For example 1 Flute + 1 Clarinet. So you cannot play a flute solo with this patch, because it will always be the combined sound.
> 
> Another example is the low strings legato patch in most ensemble libraries, is a blend of cellos, violas and basses. But the viola "drops out" when you go from MIDI C2 to B1, naturally because C2 is its lowest note. So if you play a scale or arpeggio in that range, it sounds like the violas are coming in and out randomly, when a real orchestrator likely wouldn't double the cellos with violas if the part wasn't fully playable for violas.
> 
> These libraries sound great as long as you're writing exactly the sort of material that _*would have*_ been orchestrated in the way that these samples were arranged. But you have to write around the sharp edges...


Oh right, ok that makes sense. I suppose libraries that offer a good deal more flexibility are handy then. It's probably where buying a good solo flute would come into play and using that instead.

I know that daunting feeling of "everything is so expensive", but it's a process of using what you have til you need something new and then going from there.


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## Johnny (May 3, 2017)

jaminjamesp said:


> I believe I remember reading/watching an interview with Hans Zimmer where he mentioned using string samples to augment orchestras when it wasn't feasible to record sections as large as the sound that was needed.


You are correct! I remember seeing somewhere, a PhD student dissected a Hans Zimmer mockup and found his original bed tracks of orchestral libraries that were used to beef up his (live) instrumental over-dubs. You would never notice the virtual instruments in the final mix but sure as hell they are there!


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## Selfinflicted (May 4, 2017)

thousandfold said:


> I wasn't specifically going about sampled sounds that get old, but the engine and interface can ge told pretty fast, especially if you look at how fast Kontakt is going.
> 
> But even Albion isn't that old, it's just a weird feeling that feels like it's been around forever, haha. I guess that's a good sign.



There was a bit of shift around the time when SSDs came out and legato transitions started becoming part of the equation. Around the same time independent mic controls started to becoming more prevalent. So while things like Symphobia 1 have been revamped to combine the individual mic patches into one patch with control over the mic (and or course processors and SSDs can now handle the heavier work load much better), Symphobia 1 does not have legato patches. Some people hate legato patches, so take if for whatever. But, you can see advances in approach in Symphobia 2 and Symphobia 3 as that technology (on the hardware side and software side) became more accessible.

Same goes for EWQL Symphonic Orchestra. All good sounding stuff, but the approach of Hollywood Strings was clearly superior. That doesn't mean EWQLSO is unusable, it just means there are other things out there that will get you where you want to go easier, faster, or more convincingly - depending on what it is you're doing.

Even Albion 1 (the original) was already onto this new approach (mic controls, legato, etc). But, it is an ensemble library, and the original had some unfortunate range restrictions. Some commonly used higher/lower ranges weren't included for cost savings measures. The reboot has addressed that (as far as I remember). I think Symphobia 2 had a limited amount of dynamic layers in the legatos.

(trying to get this things back onto your original topic of the ensemble libraries specifically!)


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## thousandfold (May 4, 2017)

Selfinflicted said:


> There was a bit of shift around the time when SSDs came out and legato transitions started becoming part of the equation. Around the same time independent mic controls started to becoming more prevalent. So while things like Symphobia 1 have been revamped to combine the individual mic patches into one patch with control over the mic (and or course processors and SSDs can now handle the heavier work load much better), Symphobia 1 does not have legato patches. Some people hate legato patches, so take if for whatever. But, you can see advances in approach in Symphobia 2 and Symphobia 3 as that technology (on the hardware side and software side) became more accessible.
> 
> Same goes for EWQL Symphonic Orchestra. All good sounding stuff, but the approach of Hollywood Strings was clearly superior. That doesn't mean EWQLSO is unusable, it just means there are other things out there that will get you where you want to go easier, faster, or more convincingly - depending on what it is you're doing.
> 
> ...



Awesome! Much appreciated! That's some good insight. 

I would say that while I now know Sympphobia is used a lot by people who probably don't ever read here. it still doens't feel like something I don't wanna have. For gamed esign work atleast it has all kinds of usefulness and I don't ''need'' something like Hollywood Strings yet.

That said I would say there's a vast difference in usability in the Symphobia's. I woulda argue that Symphobia 3 and maybe 2 are more usable as they are more outside the box orchestral ensembles libraries. It jus tmade me think with the recent release of Ancient ERA Persia and Ethno World 6 that especially Lumina falls more in that kind of category. A useful addon *to* an orchestral ensemble of your choice. 

Afcourse Albions offer something unique too if you don't require your standard orchestral ensemble like Albion 1. The other Albions offer something of great use too even if you can do many things with LASS for example.

While I believe that there's better things to find than getting it all in one. I do wonder if time wise, money wise, and the added frustration of managing, learning, and findng all the things Lumina 3 has to offer on seperate sample libraries, or on an ever grander skill some of Best Service sample collections is worth it.


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