# Second paid job - advice needed



## Vin (Jul 25, 2014)

Hey guys,

I need some advice on getting paid and some other stuff. I just got my 2nd paid job, series that will air on national TV, I will score the complete first season. 

I was offered 100€ (after tax) per episode after asking what budget they had in mind for music, which is very low, even compared to my first paid gig for which I got around €400 (short film, duration around 25 min). They mentioned that they want original music for the first episode, and then re-use it with some variation for other episodes (it's a documentary)...not completely clear about this yet. I'm pretty sure that their budget is around 10k-15k per episode.

I was brought by a director for which I scored some student shorts for free and I wouldn't want to compromise a potentially long-term good business relationship. On the other hand, since I'm a beginner, I suppose that I'm not in position to choose or say no. Should I negotiate (how to even start)? Any other tips?

Thank you very much in advance, all advice is welcome!


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## Valérie_D (Jul 25, 2014)

Hi Vin,

A couple years ago, I would have told you "Just take it, it will give you visibility and you will have a long term relationship with that director".

After I myself scored lots of projects for free and my biggest was also a serie for 100 $ by episode and I did put my physical and mental health at risk doing this project because odly, the director who paid the least were the ones who did not offered any written contract and who asked me the most, lots of changes and unrealistic demands and completely insane deadline with no feedback and unclear musical direction. 

Also, I stopped accepting projects from these directors in the long run because the expectations and view of my collaboration were quite clear : I would slave away for free and I should have been thankful that a director considered my talent and put it on display in their serie.

In other great and more respectful collaborations, the budget were small but made more sense and there was mutual respect from both sides and a great creative flow has run ever since.

I know it has been mentionned probably many times here but I realised just how much I contributed to that culture that artists should just work for free by saying yes to a crazy amount of work with too much in the balance.

Of course, a show airing on TV is great too and maybe you don't want to turn it down, that was just my experience and my 2 cents.

Bests,


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## cortlandcomp (Jul 25, 2014)

Only your 2nd paid gig, and it's a national TV series????

Only 100€ per episode???

WTF????


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## muk (Jul 26, 2014)

100€ is not a realistic budget for music, and certainly not for tailor made music for each episode. Unless each episode is only one minute long, that is.
Even if they have good intentions, what they are asking for is professional quality, tailor made music for each epsiode, and that basically for free. That simply should not happen, and I frankly don't know why so many film makers seem to think they can have professional music for free. Even worse that it seems to be a somewhat professional production, airing on national tv. As such they should have a professional budget for music.
As Valérie said, small budgets are understandable. The difference is how much value, respect and appreciation they show for the music. And here, it seems very little. I mean, that's 1% of their total budget they are willing to invest into music. That says it all.


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## KEnK (Jul 26, 2014)

Even 1000€ is low by many pro standards.

You're being offered a crap situation.

Like others are saying in this thread-
People who want you to work for free (100€ is free) don't value 
either what you're doing or even music itself.

Another thing I've learned from doing the freebie route myself-
Doing freebies only leads to more freebies.

It's a no win situation for you

k


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## Vin (Jul 26, 2014)

Thank you for your replies. Any advice on what should I do? Try to negotiate? I don't want to come off as rude, since I don't have any experience in such talks.


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## clarkus (Jul 26, 2014)

You're already getting the right answer. I would like to add that there is a way to say no. Throwing a fit and saying you're being ripped-off is not a good way to sustain a good reputation.

There are various choices. 

"I would love to work on this, and with you. Unfortunately I just can't afford to put the time and energy in for that rate of return."

More blunt would be: "This is so far below the industry standard that I can't consider it, even though, of course, I'd like to work with you," is a bit more blunt, but still leaves the door open.

You can also suggest a percentage of the budget (which means opening the book on what the budget is, which he may be reluctant to do).

Negotiating fees is what agents do. I would recommend my agent but he is so slammed I know you wouldn't be happy with that solution. He's also in NY. I can say if you go to a British agency and tell them you have paying work, that's the best way to get representation. Agencies like artists who are getting work & show signs of being up & coming in the world. 

Good luck!


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## Stiltzkin (Jul 26, 2014)

Keep it civil and professional I guess - say you're thankful for the offer but your rate is X


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## muk (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, offering 100€ if they have a budget of 10k-15k is rude. What to do is up to you of course. I guess I would ask them why they intend to spend only 1% of the budget on music. Try and find out whether they attach as much importance to the music as this figure suggests. From the little info we have it seems that it could be a frustrating experience.

edit: just seen the two posts above. That seems to be very good advice.


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## Mike Marino (Jul 26, 2014)

I think Mike Verta's The Business masterclass covers this extremely well. It's worth FAR more than the $30 you'll pay!

- Mike


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## milesito (Jul 26, 2014)

Mike Marino @ Sat Jul 26 said:


> I think Mike Verta's The Business masterclass covers this extremely well. It's worth FAR more than the $30 you'll pay!
> 
> - Mike




+1 I totally agree. He presents and articulates a great perspective on this entire topic for hours (along the lines of the feedback and experience others have given you hear) and he also gives some clever verbiage and ways to put it into perspective for your producer or director.


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## clarkus (Jul 26, 2014)

Just to reiterate - as I think it is worth reiterating - agents negotiate fees. That's what they do. That and make contracts. And be bastards, when necessary. A quick Google search will reveal a number of agencies in London who represent composers, among others. I think you might try your luck there. 

If you think you need to work this out one-on-one, to keep the personal touch intact, I still think in the long-term that's where your answer lies.


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## José Herring (Jul 26, 2014)

clarkus @ Sat Jul 26 said:


> Just to reiterate - as I think it is worth reiterating - agents negotiate fees. That's what they do. That and make contracts. And be bastards, when necessary. A quick Google search will reveal a number of agencies in London who represent composers, among others. I think you might try your luck there.
> 
> If you think you need to work this out one-on-one, to keep the personal touch intact, I still think in the long-term that's where your answer lies.



If London agents are anything like LA agents nobody in their right mind would negotiate this one. They'd be working for slave wages.

Personally I would walk on this. But, I understand you're starting out and wanting to get credits and connections. 

If you stay realize a few things, that's the budget that they have in mind. They probably went to some library and they realized they can get a 2 hour CD of royalty free music for $100 or something. If they've offered that much then they aren't thinking much about music.

So realize that if you do take it, you'll be in a world of hurt for a long time. I don't envy the position you're in. I've been there, but it's been with film, so there's an end in sight. But for TV scoring, what if they get picked up for another season? >8o 

I would do a limited number of episodes. Just get the credit, then leave it for some other poor sod. And I wouldn't let them use the music in perpetuity unless they're willing to pay a per use fee per cue.


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## Markus S (Jul 26, 2014)

I also think it's nowhere near an acceptable music budget for a TV show. Remember how much you had to invest to be able to produce professional audio quality in various styles and genres. How much did your setup cost, audio gear, maybe acoustic treatment, software samples, plug-ins? How much time did you invest to get it all up and running? Royalties may come, but it will be far down the road.


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## bdr (Jul 30, 2014)

I agree with everyone...say something like 'Unfortunately I just won't be able to do the great job your wonderful show deserves at that rate, I simply can't afford to give up that much time for minimal payment.


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