# The Endless Spending



## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2017)

Is it possible that we're simply buying more and more libraries and synths just because they're new and/or purported "updates"? Is technology advancing commensurate to all of these sample libraries? Considering how often new and improved libraries come out...doesn't that last seem kind of dubious to you?

This has been weighing on my mind a lot lately, peaking when I checked out half a dozen walkthroughs for new and upcoming stuff and became hard pressed to hear anything better than (sometimes even equal _*to*_) the stuff I already have...including some stuff that's been around for well over a decade. Even some of my holiday sale items aren't really, strikingly better than my already owned libraries.

Judging by this and other, similar forums, these developers are experiencing a boom period, and I'm starting to think a lot of these libraries are, at best, negligible in terms of "improvements". The prices can be exorbitant, to say the least, and many of the most expensive libraries can't be resold. It's a dangerous rabbit hole to find yourself in imo.

Are people being duped? Without underestimating the resources of the younger composers and hobbyists, I'm worried that they (and to a good degree, myself) are buying things up because of the advertising, which does show its "new face on an old product" seams more and more to me.

Another thing I'm thinking is that some of the most championing-of-a-specific-brand members here might simply be championing something because they spent a lot of money on it, or perhaps money they didn't even have, and/or weren't supposed to spend. Shakespeare's "the lady doth protest too much" quote pops in my mind a lot when I read the more vehement champions of such and such developer/library, etc.

Curious about others' thoughts on this. Though I really like this forum (and it's far from solely guilty on this, the others do it at _least _as much), at times it seems a den of covetousness, one that I at times get pulled into.

No offense or condescension meant to anyone in the slightest, I'm just wondering. Even more interesting to me is the probability that this topic won't change, compel, or even _concern_ some people in the least. They'll either feel they have to ignore it, criticize it, do their best to contradict it...mostly because they want to stay in that womb/rabbit-hole. Perhaps it's not even about making music to some of those folks...it's about the spending. Just check my topic concerning how many here are hobbyists compared to professionals/looking-to-be professionals. You might be surprised.

What I meant with that last...perhaps some people's hobby here isn't really making music at all. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but still, food for thought.


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## dcoscina (Jan 15, 2017)

Great post and the exact same thing was on my mind. While I have huge respect for all the sample developers, when Spitfire announced their huge Symphony Orchestra this last week with its mondo price I was relieved- mostly because it's way outside my financial realm to get but more importantly, based on the walk throughs, didn't really appear to offer me anything significantly better than what I have from them (and I own a lot of their stuff!).

The same applies to Orchestral Tools Berlin Brass. Huge price tag and while it sounds nice,didn't for me offer anything much more than what I already have. I did budget and get Metropolis Ark 2 which I'm loving because it offers things that M1 doesn't have and focussed on some terrific low legato wind unisons. And I've also budgeted for the SF Herrmann library whenever it's released because that too sounds like a different approach.

But for standard orchestra stuff, I'm still using EW Hollywood series a lot as well as my Albion line from Sf, Project Sam OE 1 and 2, Cinesamples line of stuff, and loving the sound. Even VSL figures in once in a while.

I did recently graduate to Dark Zebra which I love and I've been enjoying getting back into electronic music composing as well as some jazz stuff using Swing as well as BBB.

And you know what? There's a part of me that really enjoys working in sibelius or Notion just composing and not worrying about sonic perfection but rather focussing on melody, harmony,counterpoint, rhythm and orchestration. It's comforting working in Sibelius just using NotePerformer and solely working with music and not production.

I often feel blessed that I can compose and entire symphony just on my iPad using notion if I needed to. I also feel a little tired of buying an downloading monster libraries when I could be using that time to better perfect my craft with all he amazing libraries I own.

I don't hold it against any of these fine developers- that's their job and revenue stream to keep releasing products. But I'm with Parsifal insofar as how the constant releases with more marketing hype have actually served to tune me out as opposed to generating a sale.

That said, there's a whole bunch of people who don't have the amount of stuff I own (and a lot of people who have more of course) so I'm sure these products are exciting and enthralling to these folks. Me,well lately I'm just focussing on writing small pieces and chamber works.


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## ceemusic (Jan 15, 2017)

Here's a few thoughts while my coffee is being made, not quite awake...

Any purchase should always be based on budget & need. I think that if you're getting caught up in the GAS syndrome you're most likely not looking at your craft or the music business seriously. If you're hobbyist & always are buying the latest new libraries then sucker beware, no-one to blame but yourself. If you just like new toys fine, but again it comes down to budget.

Devs need to create revenue to their sustain products & continue development. Otherwise you'll be seeing them close up shop & stop supporting their products. That's what I keep in mind, who will be around in 5 years & will their products be relevant.

You are investing in software & libraries, make wise choices with your money.

Make music with what you have. Judging by many posts here & at other forums I feel many don't even use 1/2 the libraries they already have. That's the real pity of it


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## desert (Jan 15, 2017)

I blame intro prices and the pressure to buy something before the price becomes ridiculous for a hobbyist. 

Thankfully I'm not as tempted as some but this forum certainly doesn't help with the temptation!


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2017)

ceemusic said:


> Judging by many posts here & at other forums I feel many don't even use 1/2 the libraries they already have. That's the real pity of it



Great post...but as I mentioned, it could be that those people are either hobbyists whose hobby is really just spending (whether they admit it to themselves or not) and/or those who just feel swept up by the rampant GAS-ing here and on the other audio forums. In either case, the only people they could possibly hurt are themselves and the ones they love, and there is tragedy in that imo.



dcoscina said:


> Great post and the exact same thing was on my mind. While I have huge respect for all the sample developers, when Spitfire announced their huge Symphony Orchestra this last week with its mondo price I was relieved- mostly because it's way outside my financial realm to get but more importantly, based on the walk throughs, didn't really appear to offer me anything significantly better than what I have from them (and I own a lot of their stuff!).



Terrific points, the one above hit me particularly. I don't see people _challenging_ these developers much, instead there is a lot of sycophantic rooting...even when there isn't a single walkthrough or more than a couple brief demos.

Not to mention any names, but there was recently a couple of videos from developers that simply announced they would be announcing something. And plenty of people seemed to be having orgasms over even the thought. That's when I start feeling a little sad. But hey, if it works for them and doesn't hurt anyone else (including themselves), more power to them, right?

I just know *I *need to change my_*self*_. If others can improve their situation by reading and pondering this topic, well that's just awesome, and I certainly would consider my effort worth spent for just that alone.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 15, 2017)

Get Mike Vertas course Virtuosity and he goes into detail of how getting more and more sample libraries are not the holy grail of getting paid gigs. He even offers one story of scoring a commercial for Disney using nothing but the GASP Kontakt Factory library. Sacrilege!


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## Consona (Jan 15, 2017)

The situation with some developers made me really reluctant when it comes to buying new stuff. It's really insane if you think about that. You are not allowed to try it beforehand, then you buy it, you don't like it and you cannot sell it. Baffling. It would be somewhat ok if I had surplus of money but I'm from one of these post-communist countries where salaries are several times lower than in western europe so I'm really not in "experimenting" mood when it comes to buying sample libraries. 

I'm so happy I left the 8dio and Spitfire Audio hype trains. I bought Cinematic Strings 2 in 2016, it sounds better than my 8dio and SA string libraries and I can potentially resell CS2, which I cannot do with any of 8dio or SA libraries. I've learned my lesson, I learned to dismiss the hype and be content with what I already have.

Plus the marketing campaigns are starting to get on my nerves. That's why I love Alex Wallbank's approach to this. No stupid enigmatic trailers. He released CSS out of nowhere and it was such a great product it spoke for itself, no need for this silly hype.

When I've learned that some of those fantastic pieces in World of Warcraft vanilla soundtrack were made with just samples and it was 13 years ago! I've realized I don't need any of those new expensive libraries. So I basically stopped buying new libraries. Of course some time in the future I'll buy something again, but thankfully I'm immune to this pokemon "catch them all" buying-spree mindset now. And if I buy something, it will most probably be from companies that allow reselling.


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## Syneast (Jan 15, 2017)

It's like when the ladies can't stop buying shoes or handbags. None of the products are better or worse, they all just have a slightly different character and you have to have them all. It's a collector's mindset. Nothing rational about it.

I realized I have a real problem with this when I bough the Gold upgrades for my EW Hollywood libraries. That's a lot of stuff to download and play with, but instead of downloading it I immediately started looking at walkthroughs of other similar libraries.

Rationally, I know that I am covered for orchestral sounds. I think I'm starting to become _emotionally_ convinced of this as well. Sure, Spitfire's new orchestra has a nice sound, but slap a good reverb on Hollywood Orchestra and that sounds pretty nice too.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2017)

InLight-Tone said:


> He even offers one story of scoring a commercial for Disney using nothing but the GASP Kontakt Factory library. Sacrilege!



That is SO cool! +1

And I honestly did have a Rock album put out where, besides the trad Rock instruments I used Garritan Personal...and the great majority of people who bought it thought it was a real set of symphonic instruments. It's okay if you don't believe it, and I won't provide the name (apologies in advance). The truth abides.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2017)

Consona said:


> When I've learned that some of those fantastic pieces in World of Warcraft vanilla soundtrack were made with just samples and it was 13 years ago! I've realized I don't need any of those new expensive libraries. So I basically stopped buying new libraries. Of course some time in the future I'll buy something again, but thankfully I'm immune to this pokemon "catch them all" buying-spree mindset now. And if I buy something, it will most probably be from companies that allow reselling.



That's amazing, I didn't know that! My significant other plays WOW all the time!


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## tokatila (Jan 15, 2017)

The reason I'm buying stuff is to keep me distracted from my lack of real composition skills.


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## Consona (Jan 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> That's amazing, I didn't know that! My significant other plays WOW all the time!


There's a thread about WoW sample libraries where I've found out, here: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/world-of-warcraft-which-libraries-were-used.58771/


tokatila said:


> The reason I'm buying stuff is to keep me distracted from my lack of real composition skills.


Seems we share the same diagnosis.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 15, 2017)

tokatila said:


> The reason I'm buying stuff is to keep me distracted from my lack of real composition skills.


And that's probably the Truth for a lot of us here. We think by upgrading to the latest and greatest we will succeed, but the reality is that the musicality of our pieces will trump that. Better time spent polishing our keyboard playing and composition skills. I think at a certain point after one has acquired decent libraries this holds true.

In the above mentioned course by Verta, he says it's the "feel" of the music that matters most and whether one is capturing the proper vibe for the client, as most who are contracting him don't have a clue about what is the latest sample library and don't care. He stresses that the playability of the library is important so one can capture the human emotion that comes from playing it in live. 

He also did say though, that when doing library music, which I am, you DO need to have your samples/production/reverb up to snuff as those licensing will be comparing you to others who have the latest and greatest. Makes sense to me...


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## W Ackerman (Jan 15, 2017)

I think we all benefit from a vibrant community of library/instrument developers that pushes each of them to make better and better products. Profit margins, even with massive discounts, must be pretty good for many, but I suspect we are approaching a point of diminishing returns for them with lots of redundant offerings. How many solo cellos do I need? *If I can't create beautiful music with what I already own, then I can't make beautiful music at all.* I may buy a unique sound now and again, but my days of paying big bucks are coming to an end. This thread points to a trend that could result in a shakeout of developers.


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## dcoscina (Jan 15, 2017)

ceemusic said:


> Here's a few thoughts while my coffee is being made, not quite awake...
> 
> Any purchase should always be based on budget & need. I think that if you're getting caught up in the GAS syndrome you're most likely not looking at your craft or the music business seriously. If you're hobbyist & always are buying the latest new libraries then sucker beware, no-one to blame but yourself. If you just like new toys fine, but again it comes down to budget.
> 
> ...


Spot on. I sometimes imagine the prospect of starting all over again and what core libraries I would need to produce music I'm writing lately. I always circle back to Hollywood Orchestra. Even the Silver line has plenty of stuff and the Gold series is frankly excellent. With that one library, a person with talent and skills can produce some excellent music. I know I'm not using it to its fullest which is why I sometimes only focus on composing using a single sample library. It's also why I'm now focussing on writing for chamber groups because it offers the composer the ability to build harmony rough contrapuntal writing as opposed to having so many orchestral colours at their disposal when working with a large group.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2017)

tokatila said:


> The reason I'm buying stuff is to keep me distracted from my lack of real composition skills.



+1...whether you meant that humorously or not, I think you might have echoed the sentiment of at least a few members on v.i. And hey,


dcoscina said:


> Spot on. I sometimes imagine the prospect of starting all over again and what core libraries I would need to produce music I'm writing lately. I always circle back to Hollywood Orchestra. Even the Silver line has plenty of stuff and the Gold series is frankly excellent. With that one library, a person with talent and skills can produce some excellent music. I know I'm not using it to its fullest which is why I sometimes only focus on composing using a single sample library. It's also why I'm now focussing on writing for chamber groups because it offers the composer the ability to build harmony rough contrapuntal writing as opposed to having so many orchestral colours at their disposal when working with a large group.



Sounds like you have a good strategy going on! I remember when I first started studying orchestration my instructor told me to start with string quartets, or even trios. I was chagrined to hear that at the time (I wanted instant Wagner lol!), but it was a fantastic way for me to ease into the big stuff...not just composition-wise, but as far as reaching the goal of being able to read orchestral scores.


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## dcoscina (Jan 15, 2017)

Consona said:


> The situation with some developers made me really reluctant when it comes to buying new stuff. It's really insane if you think about that. You are not allowed to try it beforehand, then you buy it, you don't like it and you cannot sell it. Baffling. It would be somewhat ok if I had surplus of money but I'm from one of these post-communist countries where salaries are several times lower than in western europe so I'm really not in "experimenting" mood when it comes to buying sample libraries.
> 
> I'm so happy I left the 8dio and Spitfire Audio hype trains. I bought Cinematic Strings 2 in 2016, it sounds better than my 8dio and SA string libraries and I can potentially resell CS2, which I cannot do with any of 8dio or SA libraries. I've learned my lesson, I learned to dismiss the hype and be content with what I already have.
> 
> ...


I still use CS2 for the more lush dramatic pieces and it sounds fine. And yeah, I like Alex's approach- just release the damn thing and let the product speak for itself.


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## dcoscina (Jan 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> +1...whether you meant that humorously or not, I think you might have echoed the sentiment of at least a few members on v.i. And hey,
> 
> 
> Sounds like you have a good strategy going on! I remember when I first started studying orchestration my instructor told me to start with string quartets, or even trios. I was chagrined to hear that at the time (I wanted instant Wagner lol!), but it was a fantastic way for me to ease into the big stuff...not just composition-wise, but as far as reaching the goal of being able to read orchestral scores.


When I heard Franz Shreker's work for chamber symphony I knew then that one didn't need huge orchestral resources to get a full sound- just good technique (gasp! I hope this yucky word doesn't brand me as an elitist! )


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Jan 15, 2017)

W Ackerman said:


> I suspect we are approaching a point of diminishing returns for them with lots of redundant offerings.



Excellent point and possibly the reason developers are reaching for more re-branding and more aggressive marketing options to keep their businesses afloat.

Most of these businesses were built during a period that to me seems like a bubble. Many of my musician friends, most of whom graduated from conservatory 5-10 years ago have either seriously considered or temporarily worked in media composition. 6-7 years ago this seemed like a very lucrative field to most people, especially as the life of a performing musician got even more difficult due to cuts to cultural budgets during the economic crisis.

The mood has definitely shifted as the market has become more over saturated with beginner composers (most of whom now come equipped with 1st class tools - courtesy of the latest discount offering). I have a feeling there are lots of people who invested into gear hoping to make this their profession that have since been disappointed by the job market and have abandoned their pursuit of a composers career. Now, as they can't even resell their tools, that money is essentially locked away in those investments permanently.

Not that the potential customer base for developers is actually shrinking, but I do believe that we've been in a bit of a bubble...


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## dcoscina (Jan 15, 2017)

A lot of money I used to allot for sample libraries has gone to buying tickets for live concerts by the Toronto Symphony and buying conductors scores to works I admire. Studying and hearing a live orchestra will teach you more about orchestration than playing sample libraries and in fact, I think it's made me better at working with the libraries I own. 

One thing I do think warrants mentioning- I know I'm not disparaging the developers nor am I reading anyone else doing so in this thread. We appreciate what they have brought to the table and will continue to. It's through their hard work and efforts that many of us can realize orchestral pieces so vividly. I'm simply agreeing that for my purposes, my rig is full up and until I hear something so markedly different or revolutionary, I'm going to abstain from getting more. I already have 5 TB with of SSD space taken up by all these wonderful libraries that I have. 

But I will unabashedly agree on the point that the marketing strategies I've seen lately have been more frustrating than interest generating.


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Is technology advancing commensurate to all of these sample libraries?
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


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## jononotbono (Jan 15, 2017)

Some people spend their money on fast cars. Some people spend it on hookers and blow. I spend mine on music (mostly). I have no problem with any of this!


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 15, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Some people spend their money on fast cars. Some people spend it on hookers and blow. I spend mine on music (mostly). I have no problem with any of this!



I do all of the above and then just basically waste the rest.


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Jan 15, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Some people spend their money on fast cars. Some people spend it on hookers and blow. I spend mine on music (mostly). I have no problem with any of this!



This message is both drug dealer and sample developer approved! 
(Never thought I'd see those two together in a sentence).


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Some people spend their money on fast cars. Some people spend it on hookers and blow. I spend mine on music (mostly). I have no problem with any of this!



Nor should anyone else imo.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 15, 2017)

This gives me the opportunity to answer a question I sometimes get asked: "Why do you never say that you are thinking about buying or have bought orchestral libraries by Spitfire, Cinesamples, OT or 8dio? Do you not like their products?"

It has nothing to do with that. They all make really fine libraries that sound great and that many users love. Also, I have met Christian, Mike P., Hendrik, and Colin and they are all nice guys and I certainly wish them success.

For years, I worked for a company that made directly competitive products, so obviously I was not going to promote them except with the rare product that was not directly competitive with an EW product.

Now that I no longer do, sure, I could but for two reasons I do not: they are expensive and I simply don't need them.
You could take away 75% of the orchestral libraries I already own and I could still easily please my clients for the kind of pieces I am being asked to write.

So please, let no one think that the fact that I do not come on and stump for any of them make you assume that I somehow think they are not nice people making great products, because that is not the case.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2017)

Mihkel Zilmer said:


> This message is both drug dealer and sample developer approved!
> (Never thought I'd see those two together in a sentence).



LOL!


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 15, 2017)

Have you stopped working for EW now Jay?


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## jononotbono (Jan 15, 2017)

Mihkel Zilmer said:


> This message is both drug dealer and sample developer approved!
> (Never thought I'd see those two together in a sentence).




Hi, I'm Jono.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 15, 2017)

Baron Greuner said:


> Have you stopped working for EW now Jay?



Yes I was told that my services were not longer required about 9 months ago.


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 15, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Yes I was told that my services were not longer required about 9 months ago.



Oh right OK. It's just that you may have written that you had left EW 492 times before but I thought would just make sure.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 15, 2017)

Baron Greuner said:


> Oh right OK. It's that you may have written that you had left EW 492 times before but I thought would just make sure.



Well I din't leave them, they left me


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 15, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Well I din't leave them, they left me



Really? What utterly ghastly people they are!


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 15, 2017)

Back on track for a second. I can understand this, but the amount of emphasis given over to orchestral writing and orchestral sample libraries these days is really overweight imho.


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## Consona (Jan 15, 2017)

dcoscina said:


> One thing I do think warrants mentioning- I know I'm not disparaging the developers nor am I reading anyone else doing so in this thread. We appreciate what they have brought to the table and will continue to. It's through their hard work and efforts that many of us can realize orchestral pieces so vividly. I'm simply agreeing that for my purposes, my rig is full up and until I hear something so markedly different or revolutionary, I'm going to abstain from getting more. I already have 5 TB with of SSD space taken up by all these wonderful libraries that I have.



Definitely. Saying impossibility of reselling sample libraries irritates me does not mean I don't appreciate their work.

And I've found that a lot of these libraries are just luxuries. I get some people love to write more "style over substance" music where you'll find a great use for things like Albion Tundra (I myself write some purely ambient music). But if you like to write with more classical approach then no amount of cool articulations and types of legato from these posh libraries will help you to compose a great melody with fitting background and expand it to a 15 minut long meaningful piece of music. Again, World of Warcraft OST is 13 years old and sample based... and it sounds magnificent (and those guys didn't even have legato patches ).


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## Lee Blaske (Jan 15, 2017)

Thinking about all of the economic activity around producing and consuming sample libraries, it would be interesting to know exactly how big the market is. Considering the rate at which products are coming out, it must be pretty big. It'll be interesting to see how the market changes over time. It seems that there's been a constant reshuffling of which developers are the most active. Right now, companies like Spitfire, 8Dio, OrchestralTools and a few others are really pouring on the coals. Other major players, like VSL and EW seem comparatively dormant (unless they're secretly working on the next revolutionary products). I wonder (and worry a bit) about companies actually leaving the market (and no continuing support of products). EW and VSL, to my knowledge, both own pretty big facilities. What's going on in all that space right now? What happens to all of the employees?


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2017)

Consona said:


> Again, World of Warcraft OST is 13 years old and sample based... and it sounds magnificent (and those guys didn't even have legato patches ).



+100


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## Ashermusic (Jan 15, 2017)

Lee Blaske said:


> Thinking about all of the economic activity around producing and consuming sample libraries, it would be interesting to know exactly how big the market is. Considering the rate at which products are coming out, it must be pretty big. It'll be interesting to see how the market changes over time. It seems that there's been a constant reshuffling of which developers are the most active. Right now, companies like Spitfire, 8Dio, OrchestralTools and a few others are really pouring on the coals. Other major players, like VSL and EW seem comparatively dormant (unless they're secretly working on the next revolutionary products). I wonder (and worry a bit) about companies actually leaving the market (and no continuing support of products). EW and VSL, to my knowledge, both own pretty big facilities. What's going on in all that space right now? What happens to all of the employees?



Well as to EW, Doug told me some time ago that when it comes to orchestral stuff he has "been there, done that," so his creative focus is no longer on those kind of libraries. But that does not mean that they are not continuing to develop products.


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## Syneast (Jan 15, 2017)

dcoscina said:


> I sometimes imagine the prospect of starting all over again and what core libraries I would need to produce music I'm writing lately. I always circle back to Hollywood Orchestra.


You and me both. In a time when EWQLSO was sort of the only option for that filmscore sound, I was happily making music knowing I had the right tools. Then ProjectSAM released their brass library, and I remember prefering the tone of it over EWQLSO brass. Suddenly there were options, and ever since then I have made less and less music as a result. This is why I fantasize about limiting myself to one library, to recreate that "EWQLSO experience", if you will. I too have recently rediscovered Hollywood Orchestra. It's the only library I can think of that is so uniformly made to my taste.

Right now I'm setting up an all VSL SE template because I fantasize about VSL being that one chameleon library that can sort of imitate every other product on the market. Next time I see a new library walkthrough I want to be encouraged to try to imitate it with what I already have instead of getting lost in the marketing hype and eventually buying it. Sample addiction might be a funny joke to a lot of people here, but to me it's a serious problem and I want to find a way to end it. 



Lee Blaske said:


> Thinking about all of the economic activity around producing and consuming sample libraries


It seems to follow the way of photography but on a smaller scale. When digital SLR cameras became affordable, everyone and their grandmother suddenly became a photographer. I think the same thing is happening here. Some sample libraries became affordable, and people with little to no previous musical background could suddenly buy them and start calling themselves composers. This created a new demand, and more developers popped up on the market, and now we are living in a world where a lot of people who call themselves composers have ended up being consumers instead of producers.


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## chibear (Jan 15, 2017)

To the OP: I've never been a huge purchaser of libs, only going shopping when I hit a roadblock with what I have. I'm consciously taking a year off from any new purchases. While I can use the libraries I have well, I have not come close to exploring their possibilities, so this year is a learning year. Next year I will begin filling any holes I discover. What may happen is a new DAW 'cause the grass is always greener. That'll kill a few months stuck in a learning curve


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## Ashermusic (Jan 15, 2017)

Syneast said:


> You and me both. In a time when EWQLSO was sort of the only option for that filmscore sound, I was happily making music knowing I had the right tools. Then ProjectSAM released their brass library, and I remember prefering the tone of it over EWQLSO brass. Suddenly there were options, and ever since then I have made less and less music as a result. This is why I fantasize about limiting myself to one library, to recreate that "EWQLSO experience", if you will. I too have recently rediscovered Hollywood Orchestra. It's the only library I can think of that is so uniformly made to my taste.
> 
> Right now I'm setting up an all VSL SE template because I fantasize about VSL being that one chameleon library that can sort of imitate every other product on the market. Next time I see a new library walkthrough I want to be encouraged to try to imitate it with what I already have instead of getting lost in the marketing hype and eventually buying it. Sample addiction might be a funny joke to a lot of people here, but to me it's a serious problem and I want to find a way to end it.
> 
> It seems to follow the way of photography but on a smaller scale. When digital SLR cameras became affordable, everyone and their grandmother suddenly became a photographer. I think the same thing is happening here. Some sample libraries became affordable, and people with little to no previous musical background could suddenly buy them and start calling themselves composers. This created a new demand, and more developers popped up on the market, and now we are living in a world where a lot of people who call themselves composers have ended up being consumers instead of producers.



Very astute analysis.


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## robgb (Jan 15, 2017)

InLight-Tone said:


> He even offers one story of scoring a commercial for Disney using nothing but the GASP Kontakt Factory library.


There is gold in that library. Especially if you look at the legacy orchestral instruments. They can be tweaked with SIPS/WIPS scripts and sound just as good as many modern libraries. I refurbished the woodwinds library and now have zero reason to buy a newer woodwind library. Don't underestimate your old libraries. You don't have to tell anyone that's what you're using...


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## novaburst (Jan 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Is it possible that we're simply buying more and more libraries and synths just because they're new and/or purported "updates"? Is technology advancing commensurate to all of these sample libraries?



This is a great forum and there are others too, but the forums can never ever even imagine the millions around the world who are using the latest library's, synths, plugins to create great music and use it to the full, and push developers to do better, we just cant know them and don't see them, all we see is this forum or maybe a few more forums then make an assumption that can not view the whole music creating industry.



Parsifal666 said:


> Considering how often new and improved libraries come out...doesn't that last seem kind of dubious to you?



I am still on Cubase 6 and still find it much more than what I need, so no need for me to update. the word dubious is certainly not needed as developers are pushing to meet the needs of the consumer, how many times do you hear "at last they put this in " or " finally they have done what we ask" yes some updates cost a few more bucks and some are free that all depends on the mind or the finance of the developer, I don't feel the need to update but some do feel the need. software must be considered as a moving and living product, it always gets better and can always be improved, it is needed.


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## muk (Jan 15, 2017)

Lee Blaske said:


> Other major players, like VSL and EW seem comparatively dormant



What makes you think so? VSL has released several new libraries in the last year, and they set up Synchron Stage which could be another stream of revenue. And it seems they have started sampling new libraries at Synchron Stage, which would provide another set of orchestral samples recorded wet.
It's just that their marketing department isn't as hyperactive as some others, and they are not on the fanboy train, so it's easier to miss what they are up to.


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## novaburst (Jan 15, 2017)

dcoscina said:


> The same applies to Orchestral Tools Berlin Brass. Huge price tag and while it sounds nice,didn't for me offer anything much more than what I already have.



Not Sure why you purchased O T , but there are composers that know exactly what they want from a library and are able to discern the great features that a library can give and are willing to pay the price, they are the ones that go very deep into a library and they know that other librarys can not do the same. but to some one that has not a lot of knowledge O T will be the same as any other library


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## lp59burst (Jan 15, 2017)

I buy samples libraries because music has been my main serious hobby all of my life. Does it make me a better composer, more marketable, sound better, more creative...? Don't know and frankly, don't care... 

I don't play golf, ride expensive bikes, own/restore extravagant/classic cars, collect art, gamble, have season tickets at the ballpark, or any of a number of other far more expensive, and arguably more financially wasteful, things. But, that being said if someone else chooses to spend their money on any of those things, well, that's up to them... I won't lose any sleep over it... 

I have the money and it's my hobby... I'm glad VI companies are making so many new and exciting products... I say keep it coming... don't slow down... 

I do it because I want to... If others don't, well... then don't...


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## novaburst (Jan 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I'm worried that they (and to a good degree, myself) are buying things up because of the adverti



This can be a big problem when we worry about things but there is no need, I am sure many of us are adults or past the age of 18 years old, do you know what else we have spent money on or how do you know we have not spent much more money on other things are you going to worry because I purchased 9 cars this month or a 100 pairs of shoes, if we want to spend a few buck and believe me it is a few bucks when matched up with other things we purchased in life.

We purchase library's out of a need to work, or to create or just for the sake of it, the only time when one needs to worry is when we are being forced by gun point to purchase them but as of now all library's are being purchased by free will and every individual has his or her own personal reason for doing so and you will not know every reason and that is that.

Developers are doing a great job and are meeting the needs of many, yes they are booming, but that's because there doing a great job.

There is to much evidence that library's are getting better, and some library's work different from others which is another selling point, tone, dynamics, feel, ease of use. there are a 1000 reasons why we have many library's
and you will not know all of them.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2017)

novaburst said:


> This can be a big problem when we worry about things but there is no need, I am sure many of us are adults or past the age of 18 years old, do you know what else we have spent money on or how do you know we have not spent much more money on other things are you going to worry because I purchased 9 cars this month or a 100 pairs of shoes, if we want to spend a few buck and believe me it is a few bucks when matched up with other things we purchased in life.
> 
> We purchase library's out of a need to work, or to create or just for the sake of it, the only time when one needs to worry is when we are being forced by gun point to purchase them but as of now all library's are being purchased by free will and every individual has his or her own personal reason for doing so and you will not know every reason and that is that.
> 
> ...



It amazes me you basically posted the same redundant, lecturing post three times already. You sound like a person who generally doesn't have much productive or of interest to say, thus you feel you must derail things. Your input has been completely devoid of value.

Try to come up with posts that further the topic, not completely obvious rants that are made simply because you don't like the o.p.

I covered everything you wrote above in my original post, anyone can read that. Read it again. You could use the education, son.

You're embarrassing yourself, or trolling. This was an interesting thread before you crawled on.

_*Everyone*_ else seems to have terrific insight into what they're doing, and I'm so glad I started this thread!

I'm out, as it seems to have run its course and started attracting the sorry (and thankfully small) portion of the troll community here. There, trollburst, I gave you the outburst you wanted. Go take a nap now, you've already done way too much thinking.

Happiest wishes to you all!


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## chillbot (Jan 15, 2017)

Taking your ball and going home, eh? Why post if you only want people to agree with you? Personally I like to see both sides of a discussion.


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## jononotbono (Jan 15, 2017)

I think I'm gonna buy the Spitfire Everything Bundle.


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## robgb (Jan 15, 2017)

lp59burst said:


> I'm glad VI companies are making so many new and exciting products...


The problem I have is that lately this doesn't seem to be true. How many string libraries can there be? How many cinematic underscore libraries? How many brass libraries? 

And now, even the big guys are mining their old libraries, putting a new shine on them and repackaging them. That's not very new and exciting.


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## DSmolken (Jan 15, 2017)

A couple of conversations I recently had with people about sampling.

One, a 16-year-old EDM producer asked me if I thougth Albion One would be worth it for him. I told him I don't have it, but from what I know and my own experience with MA1 I think it might, he probably won't use all the mic positions but most of the rest of it should be useful, and there are some alternatives he can also consider for broad-strokes orchestral sounds.

Two, the guy I recorded tuba samples with said he didn't know there was still a need to do this, because he thought everything had been sampled years ago. I told him it's always possible to make things bigger and more detailed, and there are a lot of specialized libraries. I guess I convinced him there are still niches to explore, because after recording the folk-punk tuba he also wants to do a more detailed Balkan-style helicon with more noisy/FXy articulations.

Also, I mocked up a bassline from a jazz band I was playing in using both my own free samples and a nice commercial double bass library, and sent it to some people to ask which they liked better. The split was exactly 50/50.

So, is all that really needed? As a natural-born cheapskate, I think we don't really "need" all that much. But a lot of the fancy stuff is really awesome and fun.


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## Valérie_D (Jan 15, 2017)

Great thread! My laptop's screen is cracked but I don't notice when I look straight at it so I decided to keep it. I had the sample talk with myself a year ago and have been using the piano Ivory 2 and Cubase 8.5, 32 bits (64 don't work for some reasons, tried everything with the nice people at Steinberg). Anywho; I create music with what I have and will keep doing that for a long time, no use to go into the neverending sample circle for now, I have still a lot to give with my little piano.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2017)

*novaburst*, I apologize for what I said. You had a couple of points I actually agreed with, to be honest. I have to learn never to post on a forum after having an argument with my significant other. Fights tend to make people ugly, and I brought that ugliness here.

I hope you'll forgive my ignorance.


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## lp59burst (Jan 15, 2017)

robgb said:


> The problem I have is that lately this doesn't seem to be true. How many string libraries can there be? How many cinematic underscore libraries? How many brass libraries?
> 
> And now, even the big guys are mining their old libraries, putting a new shine on them and repackaging them. That's not very new and exciting.


The answer is... as many as people are willing to buy... that's the way a free market works... should they just stop making them because you see little or no value in them? How many TVs, computers, cars, bikes, guitars, pianos, microwave ovens, etc., can there be? Any new and exciting innovations there lately?

I think the Chris Hein Solo strings are very new and innovative products. As far as repackaging goes that's only a problem if you already own them. Everything doesn't have to be groundbreaking to be worthwhile... _iirc_ all of the reworked SFA libraries have new features, enhanced usability, and some new samples as well. So for me they're brand new like a shiny penny...


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## novaburst (Jan 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Happiest wishes to you all!



To you too

Sorry you feel that way.



lp59burst said:


> I buy samples libraries because music has been my main serious hobby all off my life.



And this is just one reason why we purchase librarys,


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## novaburst (Jan 15, 2017)

@Parsifal666 every thing is cool i did not see any harm what you said on my post, and openness is forwardness.

It is a big topic your thread


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## MatFluor (Jan 15, 2017)

I'm new to the scene, so I'll try to be as objective as I can.

I have just begun in stocking up on libraries - from my side, I see the following:
- I want to achieve good sound / good music from cheap libraries (I'm using Garritan PO mainly)
- I want to invest in libraries, if I feel that the music in my head cannot be ported over right and the libraries give me the missing piece.
- I want to have libraries for a good cause, meaning, not a library per use case, but good allrounders who fit my personal style
- A lot of companies are re-packaging old libs, adding a articulation or two and sell it for the same price - I don't like that
- I like innovative products as well as solid products

So, for me, I don't need 20 libraries, I want the 2 of each section to fit my personal style. if I love and want small string sections, I won't look onto Albion or Symphobia.

It's good that we have so much choice, at the same time, one is tempted to GAS and just buy everything "because then I have it". As my father always says: "The idiot is not the one who sells it, the idiot is the one who buys it". If the "overflow" of libraries serve to make the quality of the libraries better, please go on! If it's just forcing the re-branding and re-packaging - thanks, I'll sit on my old workhorses who deliver good sound.

Greets,
Mat


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## lp59burst (Jan 15, 2017)

MatFluor said:


> I'm new to the scene, so I'll try to be as objective as I can.
> 
> I have just begun in stocking up on libraries - from my side, I see the following:
> - I want to achieve good sound / good music from cheap libraries (I'm using Garritan PO mainly)
> ...


Yes, but don't you need to have many libraries, like the 20 used in your example, to find the 2 that suit your specific needs? If other people didn't buy some of the other 18 libraries then the 2 you wanted to get may not be available for you to buy... diversity of options allows for a more selective level of choice... 

Not sure about the "buyers & sellers" idiot saying... don't we all buy something every single day of our lives...?


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## MatFluor (Jan 15, 2017)

lp59burst said:


> Yes, but don't you need to have many libraries, like the 20 used in your example, to find the 2 that suit your specific needs? If people didn't buy the other 18 you may not have the 2 you want to choose from available...
> 
> Not sure about the "buyers & sellers" idiot saying... don't we all buy something every single day of our lives...?



That's the hard part - find the two by researching and evaluating demos etc.

The byuers&sellers saying is more meant e.g. for situations like a way too high price, I just meant that the company are not responsible


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## lp59burst (Jan 15, 2017)

MatFluor said:


> That's the hard part - find the two by researching and evaluating demos etc.
> 
> The byuers&sellers saying is more meant e.g. for situations like a way too high price, I just meant that the company are not responsible


VI-C is a great place to start with that... keep in mind there are as many opinions here as there are members so you really have to dig deep to find what you're after... so, if your funds are limited, and since many purchases are irreversible... no refund - no resale... do your research... and, I almost forgot to add that if you rarely, if ever, listen to me you should be fine...
Oh, and... welcome to VI-C...


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## storyteller (Jan 15, 2017)

@Parsifal666 - This is a really good thread for discussion. One of the things I find myself doing quite often when new sample libraries debut is pulling up my current libraries and seeing if I can replicate some new "feature" I like. There is rarely a time I cannot. That is not to say that is the decision-maker when I am deciding if I need to purchase a new library. There are obviously many other considerations. And some libraries are truly unique and special. But ultimately, knowing the libraries you own inside and out is more important than having a bunch of them. A person can't paint like Bob Ross because they own a tube of Phthalo Blue, a tube of Yellow Ochre, and a two inch brush... 

*EDIT:* And Picasso didn't even have paint. He had to grind up the ingredients himself - mix in a little egg and whatever else was required. Just for perspective...


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## Syneast (Jan 15, 2017)

MatFluor said:


> I want to invest in libraries, if I feel that the music in my head cannot be ported over right and the libraries give me the missing piece.


This is arguably how sample library purchases should go down, in theory. You are working on a piece and your trumpet staccatos are too leasurely to convey the idea you have in your head. Then you go: "Hmm, I wonder what library has the short and snappy staccatos that I need for this line". You then go and watch a few walkthroughs. You eventually find the library that matches the sound you have in mind, you buy it and you apply it to your piece. Done.

This bypasses the whole emotional dopamine circus that is associated with sample library addiction. I need to learn this, and I am sure a lot of other hobbyists as well.


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## Vastman (Jan 15, 2017)

lotta good points in this thread... however, I've always looked at it a bit differently...

beer, wine, eating out, expensive trips/vacations, hot tubs, kitchen rennovations, new cars, new clothes, new tvs, blah blah blah... I could go on and on... and addictions are rampent everywhere... indeed, our neuronet gravitates to them and they're actively promoted by our rapacious capitalistic money grubbing system...

I've a modest/small income compared to many, if not all of my peers. As I do very little to none of the above and find it truly exhilarating when I hear an amazing new patch/multi Airwave has done for Skippy/Omnisphere 2 or an emotionally compelling stroke of genius like Ark1/2, I try and find the money. 

I have a truly awesome library of amazing stuff... When I sit down and call up some of what I have it triggers my creative juices and often results in a gratification I love... What I've always lacked is the time to delve into them, given the constraints and financial pressures of daily life in the bay area... I'm working to rectify that.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 15, 2017)

storyteller said:


> One of the things I find myself doing quite often when new sample libraries debut is pulling up my current libraries and seeing if I can replicate some new "feature" I like.


I do the exact same thing, my friend. When Ark 2 came out I thought to myself, "This is the soft warm brass I have been dreaming of," but then found myself exploring my samples that I currently have deeper trying to discover a way to recreate the samples from Ark 2 to avoid the purchase. For example, I created the euphonium ensemble by using Cinesamples' tuba solo+horn solo 1+horn a2+VSL Euphonium solo. I did an eq cut of 2000 Hz on the highs of the tubas and horns then added a mix of Spaces reverb, put a chorus effect on the tuba, and Teldex Stage Reverb and placement on the VSL Euphonium. I know for the flugelhorn ensemble I can either purchase Vienna Instrument Pro for more humanization features or combined it with Cinesamples horn solo/ horn a2 mixture with the flugelhorn sound more prominent. Wagner tubas are a mixture of horns and euphoniums with the horn sound being more prominent. So to me, for now, I have found some workarounds and even discoveries previously "hidden." That's one of the reasons I posted my latest experiments here which featured this euphonium ensemble sound to possibly show people that there are hidden jewels within the samples we own now. We just need to take the time to polish them. 

I have noticed for me that when I purchase libraries I absolutely need that sound. My last major purchases were last June. I needed concert band sounding saxophones, MIRx Teldex Stage Reverb, Berlin Woodwinds Expansion to compliment the main library and to fill out the sound of my woodwinds, and my first serious vocal and stringed libraries: VOXOS and CSS. Some of the newer libraries that are on my radar now are: Berlin Brass, but for what you get I feel that it is too expensive; Spitfire's Symphonic Brass, but I already have the samples that I absolutely needed which was the original Bones Volume 1 for soft trombones, the new solo instruments don't even have true Legato, the horns have some issues concerning legato, there are weird loop points in some of the newer solo instruments, and I can already get soft brass sounds out of Cinesamples. Basically I would be purchasing it just for the Air sound.


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## dcoscina (Jan 15, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Not Sure why you purchased O T , but there are composers that know exactly what they want from a library and are able to discern the great features that a library can give and are willing to pay the price, they are the ones that go very deep into a library and they know that other librarys can not do the same. but to some one that has not a lot of knowledge O T will be the same as any other library


I didn't purchase Berlin brass as I own VSL Dimension Brass which ostensibly does the same thing- divisi brass.


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## lp59burst (Jan 15, 2017)

Vastman said:


> <snip> they're actively promoted by our rapacious capitalistic money grubbing system...<snip>


You say that as if it was a negative...


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## SeattleComposer (Jan 15, 2017)

I love all the new libraries. They're great. Keep em' coming. Cheaper than hiring three hours of an actual symphony. And to those who say they can accomplish all the same sounds with their old libraries - you must be amazing. I can't. That's what makes sample libraries so fun and inspiring.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> I do the exact same thing, my friend. When Ark 2 came out I thought to myself, "This is the soft warm brass I have been dreaming of," but then found myself exploring my samples that I currently have deeper trying to discover a way to recreate the samples from Ark 2 to avoid the purchase.



I did this too, Rodney, combining Iceni and EW Hollywood (and some Ohmicide here and there). This way I was able to stave off Ark1, plus I was luckily not that interested in Ark2.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I did this too, Rodney, combining Iceni and EW Hollywood (and some Ohmicide here and there). This way I was able to stave off Ark1, plus I was luckily not that interested in Ark2.


I was (am) only interested because of the brass in Ark 2, and maybe some of the woodwind patches such as the contrabass clarinets, but it's cool to hear I am not the only one getting creative to save money.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> I was (am) only interested because of the brass in Ark 2, and maybe some of the woodwind patches such as the contrabass clarinets, but it's cool to hear I am not the only one getting creative to save money.



I checked out Ark2 after I picked up the Chris Hein Complete Brass this year. I've fallen in love with the latter, so other brass libraries are on indefinite hold (besides my beloved Hollywood).

I love all the control with the Hein, plus these are the best sounding out-of-the- box Hein instruments I've ever heard.

And apologies everyone I am completely off topic!


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## Rodney Money (Jan 15, 2017)

You know, combining instruments to sound like other libraries might be an interesting and very helpful thread if anyone wants to start one.


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## wbacer (Jan 15, 2017)

Music…it’s just amazing.

You can’t eat it, drink it, wear it, sleep with it... but for those of us that have been seduced by all its beauty, magic, and mystery, we just can’t live without it.

I must admit that I’ve also been caught up in the never-ending drama of needing to buy more guitars, hardware, software, etc. My wife says that I’m addicted and need to be committed to an institution for the musically insane and she’s probably right but…

For me it’s all a question of balance. Taking care of my family, friends and personal responsibilities comes first and then if I have some money left over to feed my passion in moderation then that’s ok.

You can’t blame the developers; they are just following the Steve Jobs / Apple paradigm of creating a product and then convincing people who had no idea that they needed it in the first place that they can now no longer live without it.

Maybe it’s just a flaw in human nature that sucks us down these kinds of rabbit holes. It seems that humans have always been looking for that special elixir that will make them happier and healthier. My hope is that discussions like this one will help to raise our level of awareness so that despite all the marketing hype we can still live happy, productive lives, be good humans and write some amazing music to celebrate the experience.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 15, 2017)

Can I mention something that JUST happened? Here I am talking about how to save money using the tools I have, and my wife just asked and got permission to purchase a $1000 pot plus a in home massage. For that I could've just purchased Berlin Brass and Symphonic Brass. Welcome to my freakn' world people! Asian persuasion!!!


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## robgb (Jan 15, 2017)

lp59burst said:


> The answer is... as many as people are willing to buy... that's the way a free market works... should they just stop making them because you see little or no value in them?


I don't recall saying I thought they should stop making them. I just said it isn't very exciting when they merely repackage old libraries.


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## Vik (Jan 15, 2017)

The endless spending dilemma reminds me about buying faster computers in the 80s/90s. Some of us kept spending a lot of money on new hard drives (which actually used to be very expensive), new computers and so on... simply because what we already has wasn't good/fast (etc) enough. 

And I think that after orch. have kept improving for a few more years, the winner will be the company which pays so much attention to details and user wishes that their users don't need to keep buying something else. 

All libraries I have have quirks and limitations, bugs and shortcomings... Not that this makes me not using them, but sometimes it's just easier to have some libraries to choose between instead of troubleshoot the one/those you have - because we want to spend our time on music and not reading manuals or waiting for bugfixes. And sometimes all one needs is to use a preset from another collection, because the preset works for the situation you are in. That's where the endless thing comes in (and easily could be overdone), but I don't think it will continue like that forever. 

The other and even more important part is of course that sometimes one really needs to tune into what a new virtual instrument actually can do, and how to get the best out of it. Ignoring that part could easily become very expensive.


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## Zhao Shen (Jan 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> when I checked out half a dozen walkthroughs for new and upcoming stuff and became hard pressed to hear anything better than (sometimes even equal _*to*_) the stuff I already have...including some stuff that's been around for well over a decade.



I had multiple paragraphs of a reply typed up to counter your statement, and was ready to pat myself on the back for a well-delivered, logical argument. Then I realized that it's now 2017 and that Hollywood Strings came out 8 years ago. Wow... time really does fly.

However, the best libraries today compared to the best libraries 10 years ago really do show that sampling has progressed quite a bit. It's a gradual process - no one's going to release a library that's head and shoulders above the rest of the pack because...well, that's not how capitalist progress works. Look at the consumer tech industry: marginal upgrades each year, but then we compare our devices today with the ones we had 10 years ago, and we see that we really have come a long way.

That said, I've certainly gotten better with my spending. Now I often hear myself saying "Do I really need this? Yeah, not really..." instead of "Oh. My. God. That. New. Legato. Oh. Wowwwwwww."



Parsifal666 said:


> Another thing I'm thinking is that some of the most championing-of-a-specific-brand members here might simply be championing something because they spent a lot of money on it, or perhaps money they didn't even have, and/or weren't supposed to spend.



As someone who owns and loves his Spitfire Audio products... Even I have to admit that the Spitfire circlejerk on this forum can get out of hand. I agree on this point completely. And I accept the consequences of these heinous words.


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## Jake (Jan 15, 2017)

An associate of mine that used to own an ISP business said "If you want to be on the cutting edge of technology you'll bleed green!".


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## rottoy (Jan 15, 2017)

Syneast said:


> This is why I fantasize about limiting myself to one library, to recreate that "EWQLSO experience"


I think this video is worth posting again.
Brilliant stuff.


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## jononotbono (Jan 15, 2017)

rottoy said:


> I think this video is worth posting again.
> Brilliant stuff.




That's great. The only EW product I own is Spaces. Are you saying I need to go out and buy more stuff? 

Surrounded by enablers in this place. It's like a Sample (not so) Anonymous Group.


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## AllanH (Jan 15, 2017)

This is a great thread: I was going through the same thought process the other day after seeing Spitfire's Symphonic Orchestra release and pondering if a I needed another expensive set of instruments (SSO just sounds fantastic).

My conclusion was that I already had far more instruments/synths/VIs than talent and that I _theoretically _should be done. 

This made me go back and revisit all the good stuff I already have and try to see if I could learn them better. I even went back and re-orchestrated a piece where I had "blamed" the VIs for the uninspired sound. 

(un)fortunately NAMM is this coming week, so I might still break down.


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## markleake (Jan 15, 2017)

Zhao Shen said:


> As someone who owns and loves his Spitfire Audio products... Even I have to admit that the Spitfire circlejerk on this forum can get out of hand. I agree on this point completely. And I accept the consequences of these heinous words.


What?? So the original post in this thread was really just a complaint about people liking SA libraries!? I'm shocked.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 15, 2017)

I've been buying a lot of guitar pedals recently, and with that came the liberation of being able to re-sale some of them. As I've been doing this, I thought that it would be pretty awesome to be able to re-sale some of the libraries I currently have, but some developers do not allow this. I find this incredibly limiting, and shallow. If we can't return our sample libraries, at least let us re-sale them. I have much more respect for developers like ProjectSAM that allow this. It's a tremendous kick to the gut when you drop $500 on a library that you end up hating, and you're stuck with it for life. With that said, I've made the decision a few months back to not make anymore large purchases. The libraries I have sound realistic enough for mockups, and thats all I need. Good riddance to the sample world.

Another great thread Parsifal.


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## Vastman (Jan 15, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> That's great. The only EW product I own is Spaces. Are you saying I need to go out and buy more stuff?
> 
> Surrounded by enablers in this place. It's like a Sample (not so) Anonymous Group.


We call it "GAS" which I think stands for gear acquisition syndrome over on the cakewalk forum...


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## prodigalson (Jan 15, 2017)

Of course all one NEEDS is a handful of good sounding articulations recorded in a good room to make great music. 

But if one can get a lifelike expressive and playable string line from one patch in a newly scripted "fancy" library in 1/64th of the time it would take to create the same line using the patchwork of patches it would take using EWQLSO or HWO then the new library is worth it. Got a unique half sordino/half sul tasto patch that sounds great? I'm in. Scripted a lovely agile legato that allows me to play the ostinatos I've struggled with? take my money. Even the great Mike Verta many of you seem to revere so much advised everyone to run out and by the new Adventure Brass when it came out because it was a new level in playability and expression. And if they choose to market these libraries in a sensational way? fine, thats business, they have bills to pay too. 

Use your brain, think critically and exercise self-control like a real adult. But also in the end, let's just worry about ourselves, eh?


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## Rodney Money (Jan 15, 2017)

prodigalson said:


> Even the great Mike Verta many of you seem to revere so much advised everyone to run out and by the new Adventure Brass when it came out because it was a new level in playability and expression.


I would've bought it... if it actually sounded like brass.


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## markleake (Jan 15, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> I would've bought it... if it actually sounded like brass.


+1. It might be very flexible, but from my listening to the demos, it suffers for it.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 15, 2017)

Is this the end of VI? Will the developers all pull their ads? Hmmm!
Reasons for buying new are only two fold:
1. Need for work
2. Disposable income


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## Arbee (Jan 16, 2017)

rayinstirling said:


> Is this the end of VI? Will the developers all pull their ads? Hmmm!
> Reasons for buying new are only two fold:
> 1. Need for work
> 2. Disposable income


Or 3, from which I repeatedly suffer, "if I just buy this one more thing (insert sample library, EQ or Compressor plugin name), my music will be transformed to the next level".....and other such ridiculous bs  ....


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## rayinstirling (Jan 16, 2017)

Arbee said:


> Or 3, from which I repeatedly suffer, "if I just buy this one more thing (insert sample library, EQ or Compressor plugin name), my music will be transformed to the next level".....and other such ridiculous bs  ....


You can't do 3 unless you have 2.
The alternative to that is eventual bankruptcy or finding a real job or.........................a rich partner which hopefully creates 2.


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## Arbee (Jan 16, 2017)

rayinstirling said:


> You can't do 3 unless you have 2.
> The alternative to that is eventual bankruptcy or finding a real job or.........................a rich partner which hopefully creates 2.


If you're desperate for work (1) and feeling very insecure, the word "Disposable" can be re-interpreted and 3 comes before 2.

I only know this because I've been there (thankfully a very long time ago, back in the days of "but honey, if I don't buy a Roland D-50 my studio gigs are doomed, so we eat bread this week". She's not rich but she's still here


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## NYC Composer (Jan 16, 2017)

That said, Stevie Wonder wanted to borrow my OBX-a once.  (true story)


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## Jacob Cadmus (Jan 16, 2017)

Great thread. This makes me think back to when a former co-worker of mine told me that she "needed" to get the iPhone 7. I asked her why, and her reply was "because it's new." Though my argument that new doesn't always mean better just went above her head, but I digress. 

Anyway, my frustration with wanting/buying new libraries is precisely why I recently challenged myself to write a piece using ONLY the sounds I had when I first started (EWQLSO). The lesson I learned is that having the know-how to compose, and also to sculpt your MIDI and production, are much cheaper alternatives to buying the cutting edge new stuff. It's also more rewarding that way, knowing that the nuances of tone and expression are the result of your own skills, more so than the tech.

Also in a weird way, it brought back some of that creative fire that I had lost over the years.


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 16, 2017)

Synthesisers arguably buggered Stevie Wonder up. The second he discovered them, his classic song writing days were over.

Synthesisers are a classic case in mind with regard to this thread. I started out with a 1971 Mk 1 Mini Moog (in 1971) and at that point I was a pretty accomplished keyboard player comparatively speaking. The second I got hold of it, I could see that keyboard playing may well be a thing of the past for a lot of people in the long term. I had a Hammond C3 and B3 in the late sixties and you had to actually play that to sound any good.
Putting a keyboard on a synthesizer was a stroke of genius from Bob Moog. Part of the reason pianos got put into the background, is because in those days you couldn't actually hear them on stage, unless you had a great sound and mic'ing system. They were drowned out almost immediately by guitarists and drummers.

But Bob Moog's message was clear.

It basically said, 'all ye mediocre keyboard players, come hither and I will change your life'.

Bit like Salieri in Amadeus.

You have to be careful when you're staring out with all this new gear.

Like sample libraries.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

markleake said:


> What?? So the original post in this thread was really just a complaint about people liking SA libraries!? I'm shocked.



Wait, let's not get cuckoo, *I LOVE Spitfire*! I have Albions I to IV (which, besides perhaps the Woodwinds, are all I need). I use them all!

I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone, this is the first time I think I've even mentioned a developer.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

mikefox789 said:


> I've been buying a lot of guitar pedals recently, and with that came the liberation of being able to re-sale some of them. As I've been doing this, I thought that it would be pretty awesome to be able to re-sale some of the libraries I currently have, but some developers do not allow this. I find this incredibly limiting, and shallow. If we can't return our sample libraries, at least let us re-sale them. I have much more respect for developers like ProjectSAM that allow this. It's a tremendous kick to the gut when you drop $500 on a library that you end up hating, and you're stuck with it for life. With that said, I've made the decision a few months back to not make anymore large purchases. The libraries I have sound realistic enough for mockups, and thats all I need. Good riddance to the sample world.
> 
> Another great thread Parsifal.



That's really nice of you Mike, thank you! I still have my DOD Death Metal pedal, Thrash, my Pocket Pod, Crybaby wah, my DOD Yngwie treble booster (I think it's called 303) for my 70s Strat...I won't be gettin' rid of any of them! 

Sometimes old school is super cool imo.


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## AVaudio (Jan 16, 2017)

Great thread. I had similar thoughts during the past black friday, and my conclusion was that I already had everything I needed, except a nice Brass library and a bit more RAM. I got EW Brass and also I invested in music education. Better skills to get more out of what I already have. 

It always makes me roll my eyes when I read things like "is [any library] still a viable library?"... as if sound clips degraded over time or something.

I mean, things like LASS are always going to sound good. Certain guitars, stradivarius, cellos, drumkits, etc never go out of fashion neither.

After most developers started recording legato transitions and multiple mic position, there is no excuse: It's how we use the tools.


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## Karsten Vogt (Jan 16, 2017)

To be honest, I never really understood the great hype for Spitfire Audio. Yes, they are very nice guys and girls and their products sound good (especially in demos) but considering the price, terrible payment options and the bugs they seem overpriced to me (only talking about my Chamber Strings library's bugs). I won that one here so no too hard feelings. But with the pops, clicks, wrong note playing and volume inconsistencies I'd be very disappointed after spending that amount of money.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

DSmolken said:


> So, is all that really needed? As a natural-born cheapskate, I think we don't really "need" all that much. But a lot of the fancy stuff is really awesome and fun.



Excellent post! And I must say, that last sentence pretty much explains my feelings toward "new" and "fancy" stuff. It's not just the "latest" releases from developers, it's the stuff that's new for me, like my recent love affair with some of the comparatively older instruments from Chris Hein. Getting new instruments in general can be quite a joy for me, and most definitely can inspire my writing. To me that last is a very precious thing; breaking out of a rut imo can prove more than worth a material price imo. Of course, when we start talking about thousands of dollars, I can deal with simply going deeper into what I already have 

Signed,

Broke because of holiday sales lol!


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

If certain developers started something akin to East West Composer Cloud I'd be on it in a heartbeat, and I'd bet quite a few other people would, too. In fact, I'm really hoping the Composer Cloud provides a model for other developers...Splice and its Serum rent to own model is pretty cool too imo. That doesn't mean I'm favoriting those developers, simply their business models. And again, I'm not singling out anyone in particular to change, spin what I wrote toward whatever developer you'd like to see adopt that policy.

This way the no resale policy that certain developers stand by could be easier to swallow. At least in my humble opinion.


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## DS_Joost (Jan 16, 2017)

I've hoarded libraries for the past two years, in order to expand my compositional palette. Yes, it was expensive as heck, but I don't regret my purchases one bit.

But now that I'm in a serious composition phase, I tend to visit this forum less and less. Why? Because, in my very honest opinion, this forum has changed a little bit from a place where people gathered to give each other advice to more and more what seem to be a huge marketplace, with people hyping each other up for every new product out there. It's insane how many hype threads we've had in the past few years, and how little actual technique and insights have been given. It's not that there haven't been any, but the ratio seems to be off by quite a large margin these days.

Many people are very helpful here, but there are also a lot of people whose only reaction to threads is 'this can do that' or 'what you are trying to find is much better in x library' instead of helping to get the most out of the libraries one already has. Instead of technical experts, and compositional wizards, I see a lot of future salesmen on this forum. This is not meant as an attack on this forum. I love this place. But I observed this as I myself went into the deep dark pool of neverending hypetrains and intro sales and the like.

I've quit buying now, and will not buy anything for a long time. I've realised that, with everything I've got, I've got all the ground materials covered. With this I mean that I buy sample libraries to fill different spots on a fundamental level. It's like with recording; if your recording isn't good to begin with, no amount of tweaking and mixing can save your project. I tend to view sample libraries the same way. I buy them for the groundwork to be good. The samples need to be good. The scripting I could care less about, I'm going to go in and change that anyway.

I make my own instruments, for my own use, out of different libraries. I never use a product as is, and therefore I don't fall for hype so much anymore. Most libraries I see coming out are the same old samples, or newly recorded in the same old way, just connected by some new kind of scripting. I'm not buying a library for the script.

My main orchestral library is EW's Hollywood Orchestra. Great library, and I've yet to see anything even as remotely flexible as that one, both in breath of articulations as mixing options. I've got Albion One, because it sounds different. I usually combine the two, and mix and match to my liking. I've got all the flexibility I need. I don't need the complete orchestral package by Spitfire, or the Berlin stuff. Sure, it's wonderful, but I see absolutely nothing in them that can't be done with a little creativity and some odd scripting magic here and there, with a pinch of mixing added in. My synths are Omni 2 and the Arturia V collection. I've got Komplete for band and electro stuff, APE and Stormdrum 3 for Epic and World percussion and Olympus Elements, and EW's Symphonic Choirs on the choir side. Most of my sample mangling is being done in Machfive 3. For effects, there's EW's Spaces and Waves Gold Bundle including IR-L, plus the Nomad Factory Studio Bundle.

If that can't get me where I want to go the next couple years, I propably should consider a different profession.

What I'm saying is, before spending 1800 on that shiny new collection, try and get the most out of what you already have. Once you have enough libraries to get all your needed grounds covered, only your imagination and creativity is the limit.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

chibear said:


> To the OP: I've never been a huge purchaser of libs, only going shopping when I hit a roadblock with what I have. I'm consciously taking a year off from any new purchases. While I can use the libraries I have well, I have not come close to exploring their possibilities, so this year is a learning year. Next year I will begin filling any holes I discover. What may happen is a new DAW 'cause the grass is always greener. That'll kill a few months stuck in a learning curve



There's wisdom in this year off approach imo. One of the best parts has to be that you can simply wait for the holidays each year to make the big scoop (that's pretty much what I did last year...hey, I _said _I was just as guilty as everyone else of GAS lol!)


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

DS_Joost said:


> I've hoarded libraries for the past two years, in order to expand my compositional palette. Yes, it was expensive as heck, but I don't regret my purchases one bit.
> 
> But now that I'm in a serious composition phase, I tend to visit this forum less and less. Why? Because, in my very honest opinion, this forum has changed a little bit from a place where people gathered to give each other advice to more and more what seem to be a huge marketplace, with people hyping each other up for every new product out there. It's insane how many hype threads we've had in the past few years, and how little actual technique and insights have been given. It's not that there haven't been any, but the ratio seems to be off by quite a large margin these days.
> 
> ...



It's interesting to me that many members here use East West Symphonic instruments as their center. I used to do the same, but I realized relatively recently that I actually open up the manifold Kontakt instruments just as much as Play, if not more. Part of it has to do with how much I love layering certain Kontakt libraries with East West.

And yes, as I intimated in the original post, this forum (along with the others I know of) can be guilty of seeming overly covetous. But, full disclosure: I can be _*just*_ as guilty of it as anyone else here and on the others. No pretensions.


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## ScarletJerry (Jan 16, 2017)

In addition to being an aspiring composer, I am also a writer, and that profession suffers from the same syndrome described in an earlier thread. Some writers will spend money going to writer's conferences, purchase loads of books about how to get your book published, and spend hours reading writing and publishing forums. The truth is that if most aspiring authors would take time every day to WRITE instead of looking for writing advice or purchasing another book, they would be better off.

That being said, I love to occasionally purchase a new low-moderate cost instrument if I feel inspired to do so. That's why I love developers like Indiginus and Embertone. They have offerings that are unique and usually in the "$50 or below" sweet spot.

Regarding using older libraries - I purchase Miroslav Philharmonik a few years ago for $75 during a Black Friday sale. I was really looking to use the Miro woodwinds because they still sound good, even today. I was also looking to purchase a solo oboe library to get a nice legato sound. As an experiment, I re-sampled the oboe in Miro and added the WIPS legato script with a touch of reverb. It sounded almost exactly like the solo oboe library that I wanted to purchase! There is something to be said for remixing/reworking/rethinking and even re-sampling what you already own.


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## MatFluor (Jan 16, 2017)

I am an aspiring game music composer - I want to go the full-time route as soon as I can.

But - I need libraries to have a certain quality - it's especially hard, given the vast amount of libraries available, what to purchase. I know my preferences, but concerning the "service" nature of the job, I need to be flexible. I want the best that can get the job done for me - and monthly new products won't help in deciding what to buy


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## OliverLee (Jan 16, 2017)

My hats off to this instructive thread. I think we all become to know about the exact worthy of libraries, from now on. I didn't know 5 years ago that EWQL Hollywood series would be steady seller for a long time, also didn't know that VSL orchestral stuff wouldn't fall behind for over 10 years, at that time. I think we passed a period of upheaval, infancy of VI. We became to have better judgement than 5 years ago that distinguish good and bad libraries.
Personally I bought Chris Hein's solo strings bunble last month, and IMO I don't need any more solo strings at least next 10 years, because I can make everything in mind if I just try it. VI Market place is definitely matured a lot.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

OliverLee said:


> Personally I bought Chris Hein's solo strings bunble last month, and IMO I don't need any more solo strings at least next 10 years, because I can make everything in mind if I just try it. VI Market place is definitely matured a lot.



Hein instruments were the main ones that swayed me from my years-long defaults. The dry sound and eminent malleability were what sold them for me. They work great in my music.


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## Morodiene (Jan 16, 2017)

Being relatively new to vi's, I was hesitant to buy software. I really wanted to buy one piece of software - or each section only once, and stick with that. But the price tag on buying individual sections held me back. I have no idea what's good, what's playable, what's best for my music, so I went with EWHO. So far, I'm pretty happy with that and I don't foresee needing to upgrade as I originally thought.

As another poster said (or maybe a few), it's more about your composing that matters, less about the samples. And of course, learning how to effectively use your library is good - and that's what I'm focused on for now. At some point I may find that the limitations of what I have bother me enough to need buying something else, but for now, I seem to have gotten over my initial GAS.


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## dcoscina (Jan 16, 2017)

MatFluor said:


> I am an aspiring game music composer - I want to go the full-time route as soon as I can.
> 
> But - I need libraries to have a certain quality - it's especially hard, given the vast amount of libraries available, what to purchase. I know my preferences, but concerning the "service" nature of the job, I need to be flexible. I want the best that can get the job done for me - and monthly new products won't help in deciding what to buy


This is an excellent place to solicit opinions from people who have various levels of experience in the music biz. It's a great community of professionals, semi pros and hobbyists alike.


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## jononotbono (Jan 16, 2017)

DS_Joost said:


> Instead of technical experts, and compositional wizards



I wish I was one (actually both) but I'm not yet. If I was I would contribute. I love it when people that are, do!


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> but for now, I seem to have gotten over my initial GAS.



Just ten more months before Black Friday 2017


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## Consona (Jan 16, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Just ten more months before Black Friday 2017


Yea, we shouldn't kid ourselves here... We all are saving money for the next Black Friday.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

Consona said:


> Yea, we shouldn't kid ourselves here... We all are saving money for the next Black Friday.



At first I thought I was in denial...but it's not really denial if you know you're in denial...right?


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## rottoy (Jan 16, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> At first I thought I was in denial...but it's not really denial if you know you're in denial...right?


You're in denial about being in denial.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

rottoy said:


> You're in denial about being in denial.



Arrrrgh! My life is a Catch-22!


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## Quasar (Jan 16, 2017)

Consona said:


> Yea, we shouldn't kid ourselves here... We all are saving money for the next Black Friday.



Great thread. I became much more active on forums and sales sites a few months ago, as I had been planning all year to save-up a few bucks and load up during the holiday sales season, which I did, and now I am done. Unless something truly extraordinary pops up, such as UIST at one of those outlets for $19.99 or something, I am buying _nothing_ at least until the end-of-year 2017 time.

Since around early-mid October, i have spent more time watching walkthroughs, reading specs and idling on web forums, social media music software groups and developer sites than I have spent working on music. This was fine (sort of), though now that chapter needs to end.

But GAS is a real thing, and I'm finding it difficult to turn off the tendency to look at the various sites to see what's happening, as though I'm going to _miss something important_ if I skip even one day. It's extremely easy to fall into this trap because it involves spending money, and any time one's goal is to spend money there will be _lot's of people ready to help you_, ready to remind you how cool or awesome or "no-brainer" it would be to buy x or y (but do it now, because time is running out!). I'm probably going to have to get hardcore and unsubscribe from the glut of mailing lists I'm on etc., and once again turn on, tune in & drop out, which is my usual relationship to most of the materialistic, consumer-driven world anyway.


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## kitekrazy (Jan 16, 2017)

Sometimes what you fail to realize on a limited budget is during the holidays I've bought a lot of items under $20. I don't want to think about what the total amount I've spent. It's easy for my to ignore many libraries but it gets out of hand with sample packs offering midis, presets, and one shots. Then there's also the Waves plugins that's hard to ignore. When you are a hobbyist I think you need to be realistic and question what you bought is more for bragging rights. It's like if I bought one of those libraries over $1000 and played something for friends and acquaintances who know nothing about how music is made they probably wouldn't know the difference if I used what was bundled in Kontakt.


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## kitekrazy (Jan 16, 2017)

Consona said:


> Yea, we shouldn't kid ourselves here... We all are saving money for the next Black Friday.



Hopefully paying off our past Black Friday purchases.


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## kitekrazy (Jan 16, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Being relatively new to vi's, I was hesitant to buy software. I really wanted to buy one piece of software - or each section only once, and stick with that. But the price tag on buying individual sections held me back. I have no idea what's good, what's playable, what's best for my music, so I went with EWHO. So far, I'm pretty happy with that and I don't foresee needing to upgrade as I originally thought.
> 
> *As another poster said (or maybe a few), it's more about your composing that matters, less about the samples.* And of course, learning how to effectively use your library is good - and that's what I'm focused on for now. At some point I may find that the limitations of what I have bother me enough to need buying something else, but for now, I seem to have gotten over my initial GAS.



It's like the guitarist who thinks they'll be better by going from their Epiphone LP to a Gibson. I still believe the difference between the amateur and the pro is the pro uses less stuff and they mastered it.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> Sometimes what you fail to realize on a limited budget is during the holidays I've bought a lot of items under $20. I don't want to think about what the total amount I've spent. It's easy for my to ignore many libraries but it gets out of hand with sample packs offering midis, presets, and one shots. Then there's also the Waves plugins that's hard to ignore. When you are a hobbyist I think you need to be realistic and question what you bought is more for bragging rights. It's like if I bought one of those libraries over $1000 and played something for friends and acquaintances who know nothing about how music is made they probably wouldn't know the difference if I used what was bundled in Kontakt.



It's true...I've experienced some heated opposition on this subject, but I have met few casual music listeners who could tell the difference between sample libraries and orchestras, unless I mentioned the existence of libraries beforehand (and even then they were mostly wrong). Even when it came to often poo-poo'ed sample libraries like GPO. Really. I realize this might be hard for some to swallow.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 16, 2017)

Hey! Parsifal666, who exactly are you? How about a demo of this great work you're doing with this or that library?
You certainly talk a lot, how about us hearing something?

Rayzalaf


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

rayinstirling said:


> Hey! How about a demo of this great work you're doing with this or that library?
> You certainly talk a lot, how about us hearing something?
> 
> Rayzalaf



I never said I do great work, you made that up because you're trolling. In fact, it's exactly the opposite, I _suck_! That's why I don't put anything up.

I just like to try and help people, plus folks here have helped me a lot.

I don't respond to challenges anyway, it's too much like kindergarten. If you don't believe what I say, then ask other folks here.

By the way, looks to me as though a _heck _of a lot more people like what I have to say than you (the numbers don't lie) so there's that.

How about adding something to the topic, which is what everyone else did?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 16, 2017)

rayinstirling said:


> Hey! Parsifal666, who exactly are you? How about a demo of this great work you're doing with this or that library?
> You certainly talk a lot, how about us hearing something?
> 
> Rayzalaf



Hi Rayin, 

Not sure where Parsifal said he did some great work. Due to all respect but he didn´t or least I didn´t noticed. Yes he likes to talk about that subject and would like to know other peoples opinion. I think that is his right to do, and that is the reason why people have a discussion. Don´t you think so? What is your opinion regarding the initial topic, if I may ask?


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hi Rayin,
> 
> Not sure where Parsifal said he did some great work. Due to all respect but he didn´t or least I didn´t noticed. Yes he likes to talk about that subject and would like to know other peoples opinion. I think that is his right to do, and that is the reason why people have a discussion. Don´t you think so? What is your opinion regarding the initial topic, if I may ask?



That's super nice of you *Alexander*, and I'm very grateful. But (I could be wrong, and apologize to *Rayzalaf* in advance if so), the guy seems to be trolling anyway.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 16, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> That's super nice of you *Alexander*, and I'm very grateful. But (I could be wrong, and apologize to *Rayzalaf* in advance if so), the guy seems to be trolling anyway.



Why apologize? For what? You have an interesting topic here and people have different opinions which is normal. Sometimes I guess it is hard just to read "the given information" without starting to" interprete too much into posts". It is like that: 

Really, I did a fantastic track!! 

or:

Really, I did a fantastic Track!!

Same sentence but I am pretty sure people will take it totally different. 

So back to topic..

I need more to think about the topic, then I will chime in with another opinion..:D


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Why apologize? For what? You have an interesting topic here and people have different opinions which is normal. Sometimes I guess it is hard just to read "the given information" without starting to" interprete too much into posts". It is like that:
> 
> Really, I did a fantastic track!!
> 
> ...



 I have to give major kudos to everyone here, the responses have been insightful and at times educational. Somehow this subject really brought the best out in this board, and shows just terrific it can be.

And just think, the topic wasn't even obliquely related to "legato" LOL!

You are all amazing!


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## PeterKorcek (Jan 16, 2017)

Peter: "My name is Peter"
Other addicts: "Hello Peter"
Peter: "I have (had) GAS problem"
Others: *clap* *clap* *clap*
Peter: *sobbing like a poor and pathetic biatch*

I am just a hobbyist, in the beginning I was buying more stuff I really needed - I have always been learning also orchestration, mixing, etc, but thought that buying this and that library would make me better composer - I think it was some kind of acute psychosis to be honest as I now see things more clearly  Sold some stuff to keep just the main libraries and now I focus mainly on composition, orchestration, arrangment, mixing, etc.


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## Saxer (Jan 16, 2017)

There was a steady development in playability, workflow, diversity and detail in orchestral sampling over the last 15 years. Luckily the days of 'staccato and long sustain lines only' are gone and it's finally possible to create convincing melodic stuff with colorful articulations. Lots of libraries were musically real door openers for me. But the progress curve is leveling out.

There is a point where I have to decide if a new library is an extension or a burden. Every library wants to be paid, downloaded, installed, activated, backuped, loaded, leveled, tested, integrated into a template - and then the work starts with learning to perform it and get to know the strenght and weakness of it. And often just to recognize that the existing stuff already works better. Waste of life time.

There's a library from time to time that brings everything a step further. But we are approaching a level of saturation. I remember my first drum computer which had a shaker! Wow, a shaker! So cool! Same with dead notes of snares and swiping brushes. Meanwhile I just use those libraries and never look for anything more. Basses too. Pianos anyway. Synths: done. Yepp, Zebra3 because U-he is a congenial nerd. But anyone still looking for pads? Or whooshes and impacts? Kickdrums? My mobile phone has more kickdrums than I ever need. Ok, when popular styles change there are always new sounds needed. But that's a fast food business. What's still missing? Ok, voices.

As long as there's no serious change like physical modeling of everything or acoustic capture technique that translates audio performances from one instrument to another we are close to satisfaction and buying more libraries is a just collectors thing.


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## Arbee (Jan 16, 2017)

Saxer said:


> As long as there's no serious change like physical modeling of everything or acoustic capture technique that translates audio performances from one instrument to another we are close to satisfaction and buying more libraries is a just collectors thing.


The trend I see is that we've moved from a phase where orchestral sample libraries were intended to be flexible in use (i.e. the drier libraries that can be put in different spaces and respond well to treatment), to very boutique, niche sounding libraries where you almost need a different library for every type of track you do. Great for selling more stuff, but I'm then torn between learning one or two things well or ten things poorly (and at great expense).


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## Saxer (Jan 16, 2017)

Arbee said:


> The trend I see is that we've moved from a phase where orchestral sample libraries were intended to be flexible in use (i.e. the drier libraries that can be put in different spaces and respond well to treatment), to very boutique, niche sounding libraries where you almost need a different library for every type of track you do. Great for selling more stuff, but I'm then torn between learning one or two things well or ten things poorly (and at great expense).


Yes, that's right. Probably after the dry and room and surround and the big and the small and the vintage and the historic and the Berhard Herrmann and the loud and the soft there will be the Williams and the Mancini and the Morricone and the TV and the shellac and the vinly edition... Albino MDXXVII


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## desert (Jan 16, 2017)

DS_Joost said:


> with people hyping each other up for every new product out there. It's insane how many hype threads we've had in the past few years, and how little actual technique and insights have been given. It's not that there haven't been any, but the ratio seems to be off by quite a large margin these days.



Totally agreed. I understand these sample developers have a business to run but they are really exploiting their "no refund" policy with their various marketing stunts in this forum. 

Let the library speak for itself.


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## benmrx (Jan 16, 2017)

No one's forcing anyone to buy new libraries. Face it.., people like to get stuff. It's fun. It can be inspiring. It can be specific for a current job, or something more 'for yourself'. Relax, have fun, make music.

It's up to YOU to not fall for the marketing. We all know by now that 99% of this stuff can't be resold. No one is hiding it. At least not that I can see.


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## JFB (Jan 16, 2017)

For some perspective as to how much these tools cost nowadays, back in 1996 one Emu E4X Turbo with 128mb of ram/128 voice polyphony and the Miroslav Vitous orchestral library cost me upwards of $9,000 (the MV library was ~$3.5k of the total). You could now buy multiple libraries and a custom built hotrod PC for what that comparative horse-and-buggy cost me. Add more E4's to the rack, some romplers and other hardware and it's $$$$$. Fortunately, I made good money with it. As to the question 'why have so many libraries?' Well...why do guitar players have and use different guitars? Different amp heads and cabinets? Why do some engineers own multiple compressors/eq's/microphones? After all, the listener of the final product doesn't care what gear it was made with and there's no reason why they would. But it matters a lot to the people making it.

I write a fair bit of music for Entertainment Tonight. They're coming up on award show time and they want a new version of an award show cue I did in 2008. They've been using this cue regularly and after 8 years they want a new one. I did it on the Kontakt version of ESQLSO. If I wanted to, I could do the new one on that same library (I have it archived) because it sounded fine and it still fully captures the vibe; the ET editors would dig it. And it would be way faster because I wouldn't have to do nearly as much of the tedious key editor dickery that I do now. Will I do the new one with it? Hell, no! The production I can do now using multiple libraries within the same cue is so qualitatively different that I can't go back. Each library has it's own unique "thing" that another doesn't have. For example, the only thing Spitfire strings and CSS have in common to me is that they're sampled strings...just like the only thing a Strat and a Les Paul have in common is that they're guitars...or a Mesa Boogie vs a Marshall...or an SM58 vs a U87, ad infinitum. So I buy them all because I never know which one will have just the right tone. And if someone has a thousand kick drums and has a reason to use #245 instead of #251, then that guy needs 1000 kick drums. Me? Not so much, as a kick drum isn't enough of what I do to where my ear would be that discerning. But for orchestral samples, yeah, I need them all (except VSL - just not a fan of their aesthetic).

It's always mentioned how orchestration is what matters most. That's true to a point. However, orchestration techniques haven't changed in a hundred years in a way that matters for most work done on workstations. As long as you achieve competence in the fundamentals, adapting your skill to modern styles is trivial. I think a strong, individual compositional point of view matters much more; I've heard well orchestrated workstation productions that stand for nothing and others with a strong POV with pedestrian orchestration that are amazing. But the sample libraries have changed almost as much in 25 years as going from banging sticks together to an orchestra, though I think we're at the point where change is going to be incremental when it comes to strictly orchestral libraries.

Ultimately, GAS is only wasteful if you buy things without having a firm musical purpose in mind for why you want it. If you can do your thing with 1 String library, great! If you need 5, great! We have an embarrassment of riches a download away and compared to yesteryear, it's Walmart prices. I know that's cold comfort for those barely making ends meet, but man the price of entry for what you get is crazy these days.


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## markleake (Jan 16, 2017)

@Parsifal666, here's my 2 cents... Part 1...

This is written as a direct response to you. Apologies on the length, I am on holidays and have some free time, as you can tell! I have to post in two parts because it is too long. 

I have mixed thoughts about the topics in your original post -- sometimes I agree with you, and sometimes I don't. Refer to the end of my post for the TL;DR.

I think there has been a natural roll-off of advancements in technology as the domain has matured. This occurs in almost all technology domains. In this case I think many of the significant primary innovations have now been made already. Not to say there can't be more, or refinements to previous innovations made (we continue to see this happening), but I think we are now in a more mature development phase. I'd be cautious in putting too much weight on this though, because history shows us that very often with technology it will continue to evolve and impact in ways we don't expect. We tend to over-estimate where we've got to so far, and underestimate what is still to come.

I think we also can't diminish the roll that improvements in personal computers have made over the last 10 to 15 years. These have been significant: moving to a 64 bit architecture; large reductions in the cost of processing power and memory; large changes to technologies related to data storage, and again reductions in cost; continuing advancements in user interfaces; and the personal computer ecosystem in general having become mature and extensively commoditised. As costs have come down and the technologies and ease of access has improved, we've seen the sample library industry expand a lot, simply because they can take advantage of these improvements. Music production has effectively been going through its own digital enlightenment or revolution phase, similar to what happend with publishing and the written word which was brought on by the desktop PC. And it's now become available to the masses.

I think some of those technology changes are not done yet. For instance, you will likely see less need over time to have networked slaves when using large instrument templates.

This is all a natural evolution. As the technology and market evolves you get more sample library players in the market due to the market having expanded. These companies will carve out their own niche in the market, but they also need to go through their own growth stages. Hence why you get a lot of similar content in the market now. This is not new though, its been happening for years. Even some of the more established players now-days went through this same growth process.

To me this is a good thing, and not something to be concerned about at all. Competition between sample library development companies is good. Even the re-packaging of products to make them more consumer friendly and accessible price-wise can be healthy for the market. I've seen some people complain about this, but I've personally benefited from it greatly, and I think it's benefited others also. It's a logical marketing/saleability progressing for some of these products.

Regarding your concern around prices, as I see it they are pretty much always set at what the market can bear. I've seen many of them coming down in price significantly over the years, and there are some libraries that are fantastically produced that sell for very little, so I don't think we are poorly served by sample library creators. I think more competition will improve pricing, not confuse the market.

I think the issue of re-sale is more complex than you make out. The technology I think is not there yet in terms of allowing the process to be seamless and secure. I can understand why some companies don't allow it, so I think it's a somewhat one-eyed view to complain about the developers not allowing it. By all means partition them, but don't complain. We all buy these libraries with the knowledge that some developers don't allow re-sale, so if you are unhappy with that position, you can just buy from companies that do allow the resale -- there are plenty of them. This is just a case of being well informed when purchasing. Some people seem to put emphasis on the more expensive libraries being non-resalable (like you do), whereas I see it as a simple case of the more expensive the library, the more you should be careful that the purchasing decision is correct before pushing the buy button. This is just common sense for any large purchase, sample library or otherwise. The bottom line is the purchaser is the one responsible for making their purchase and there isn't anyone forcing them to buy; they click the buy button of their own free will. You don't need to feel responsible for that.


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## markleake (Jan 16, 2017)

@Parsifal666, my 2 cents... Part 2...

Regarding marketing and your concern about younger composers buying things they don't need. I haven't seen that happening much here. I see many people asking lots of questions, having a range of advice provided, some of which is very good advice. Usually then the purchaser reports what they bought, and the common outcome is nothing too far off-track from what they stated as their needs. Really a lot of libraries now days are hard to go wrong with, there are many that are good quality.

There are some people who have their own agendas in recommending or defending certain libraries, but probably we all do -- its hard not to. We all like to talk about the libraries we have purchased ourselves, because that is what we know and have invested in. I see you doing this a lot, for example, probably a lot more than most others in the forum. I don't think there is anything at all wrong with this, so long as the advice is given respectfully and we try and give it on the merits of the library we are advocating rather than just barracking for a team. Often different people will comment with different perspectives anyway. I do sometimes see a problem where people recommend (or worse yet, dissuade) others from certain libraries, when they don't actually have that library and don't disclose that information. I am surprised when that happens, because I don't know how people can comment with authority on something they haven't used.

I think perhaps your position comes from someone who already has a number of sample libraries, and may not need much else, and find yourself still wanting to buy. I get that. I think it affects some people that way who are not natural planners. But I also think there are people who are still building their libraries and are at various stages of doing that. They may find it hard to work out what to get sometimes, but are still very interested in the new libraries and what they offer.

Generally I see the process as people purchasing a few initial libraries, learning more, then purchasing more libraries based on what they learnt. Often during that process they will discover what they *don't* like and refine what they *do* like and need. They may have some regrets about a purchase (who doesn't!?), but also some wins. Hopefully as they look to buy more they get better at diminishing the disappointments and increasing the wins. My best advice of anyone starting out is to start with an obvious starter library (eg. EWQL), learn that a bit, then plan out very deliberately (ie. using certain objective criteria) what they want/need and try and stick to that plan. That should minimise the pain. Sometimes you can deviate from the plan because you are doing something where you are like "oh, I have a gap in my libraries where I really need X," then you go make the relevant purchase. Otherwise, you just stick to what the plan is, making revisions as needed. Often, as others have said in this thread, you can listen to a new library and pull out patches from other libraries you already have that do the same thing, and therefore eliminate that new library as fitting your plan.

I think most people are capable of this kind of reasoned process. I tend to think you may be projecting too much purchasing angst onto other people. We are adults and can (usually) manage our purchasing. Most of the evidence in this thread points to people trying to make rational decisions about what they purchase. I know some people can spend a lot of time here or otherwise researching products, and maybe they need to not do that. But overall your post comes across as wanting to convince people to stop buying products, or at least that people are overly influenced by marketing tactics. I think the better approach really is to help educate people on *how* you and others have learnt to approach buying products in a way that maximises the purchasing benefits.

On the issue of hype. While I think this does exist to some extent, I suspect that people are mostly conflating just some general fun and 'I'm interested' posts with hype. When you look back at some of those threads, more than half are usually jokes or tongue-in-cheek statements. I don't think people take those threads too seriously. Also, most adults are capable of externalising any excitement and making some form of rational decision when purchasing a sample library. These are usually not 'impulse buy' kind of purchases. I wouldn't be too concerned over those threads... the internet will be internet.

OK, so I think I've covered all your topics. I mean these all as constructive comments to your original post, so I hope you take the areas I disagree with you as that.

I would add one thing... while I am reading through this thread, you make me feel a bit uncomfortable and hesitant to respond with how you are labelling newer members as trolls in some of your posts. I think these people deserve a bit of respect and a mature response from an active member like yourself, even if they are asking for or assuming things that you haven't really said. They seem to be me to be exactly the kind of person who the forum should be focused on educating or assisting with purchases, not dismissing or discouraging.

TL;DR: I think the industry continues to evolve; there are naturally new players who themselves need to grow; new products are not evil; I think you somewhat misconstrue the process around people's purchasing habits and their susceptibility to marketing; internet hype treads happen, because... the internet; I think newer music creators do need help and guidance; I'd encourage you (and others in the know) to educate people on how to go about making good purchases.

Edit: Some spelling fixes.


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## arta (Jan 16, 2017)

Just to add my humble two cents, I find myself yearning for all the vocal libraries I can find simply because every soloist and choir sounds different, enough for me to covet a new voice on the roster.


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## Saxer (Jan 16, 2017)

What's really annoying is all the marketing after a while... I get about ten e-mails every morning telling me to buy NOW and UNTIL TOMORROW for this price and even after all black holidays and season Fridays there's nowadays always a RARE OPPORTUNITY to get something AMAZING and REALLY GREAT but ONLY TODAY. And that's all audio plugin and library stuff. And there are more of this mails arriving over the day. And as I'm normally very interested in new stuff or updates I more and more mark this mails as spam. What really bothers me: It's the stuff I love and like to work with and it's sold like remainders of cheap car accessories.


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## jcrosby (Jan 17, 2017)

Consona said:


> It's really insane if you think about that. You are not allowed to try it beforehand, then you buy it, you don't like it and you cannot sell it. Baffling.


^
THISSSS


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## Karsten Vogt (Jan 17, 2017)

benmrx said:


> No one's forcing anyone to buy new libraries. Face it.., people like to get stuff. It's fun. It can be inspiring. It can be specific for a current job, or something more 'for yourself'. Relax, have fun, make music.
> 
> It's up to YOU to not fall for the marketing. We all know by now that 99% of this stuff can't be resold. No one is hiding it. At least not that I can see.


The problem is that you can hardly tell if a review is done because the product is really good or the developer payed/compensated the reviewer for a good review. No refund policy, no resale policy, no demo versions... this is a heaven for developers and sometimes a nightmare for users.


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## mc_deli (Jan 17, 2017)

Saxer said:


> What's really annoying is all the marketing after a while... I get about ten e-mails every morning telling me to buy NOW and UNTIL TOMORROW for this price and even after all black holidays and season Fridays there's nowadays always a RARE OPPORTUNITY to get something AMAZING and REALLY GREAT but ONLY TODAY. And that's all audio plugin and library stuff. And there are more of this mails arriving over the day. And as I'm normally very interested in new stuff or updates I more and more mark this mails as spam. What really bothers me: It's the stuff I love and like to work with and it's sold like remainders of cheap car accessories.


Unsubscribe


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## mc_deli (Jan 17, 2017)

markleake said:


> @Parsifal666, my 2 cents... Part 2...
> 
> Regarding marketing and your concern about younger composers buying things they don't need. I haven't seen that happening much here. I see many people asking lots of questions, having a range of advice provided, some of which is very good advice. Usually then the purchaser reports what they bought, and the common outcome is nothing too far off-track from what they stated as their needs. Really a lot of libraries now days are hard to go wrong with, there are many that are good quality.
> 
> ...


Your rose tinted spectacles are sparkling in the sunlight my friend.
Who knows how many "young impressionable or vulnerable" people buy software they don't need... do the devs know their user data that well... do NI? 
How many people have got a Composer Cloud sub and used the libs for less than 10 hours, less than 20?
How many people have bought a 300 quid lib and never used it?

We just don't know.
And there is a huge amount of hype. This is a commercial forum with commercial posts and threads about paid products and services so it comes with the territory.

I see loads of posts here and elsewhere that are obviously people in the process of buying things they don't need, looking for validation from strangers. That's OK. They can choose. But there is a lot of it.

...on the other point about resale - SaaS/sub models remove this question altogether and I think e.g. SA can only get away with "banning" resale because they are so successful. Personally I think software resale should be supported by legislation (fat chance of that with a hard Brexit removing regulation, eroding consumer rights etc etc but that's for another thread)


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 17, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Your rose tinted spectacles are sparkling in the sunlight my friend.
> How many people have bought a 300 quid lib and never used it?



Here. Me. Yes here. Me. I have. Hello? Here. Me. I have done that.


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 17, 2017)

And do you know what stops me from selling it (even if I could)?

Entrapment.


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## muk (Jan 17, 2017)

Erm, Parsifal, what happened to your resolve? To quote a post you made yesterday on a new bassoon sample library announcement:



Parsifal666 said:


> Oh I will get this!



And a flute:


Parsifal666 said:


> Awesome! This sale is outrageously great!



And a contrabass:


Parsifal666 said:


> MANDATORY! I've just got to save up...is there an crossover price for owners of Solo Violin?



Basically you posted on every other commercial announcement thread???


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 17, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Your rose tinted spectacles are sparkling in the sunlight my friend.
> Who knows how many "young impressionable or vulnerable" people buy software they don't need... do the devs know their user data that well... do NI?
> How many people have got a Composer Cloud sub and used the libs for less than 10 hours, less than 20?
> How many people have bought a 300 quid lib and never used it?
> ...



Excellent post, mc_deli. That covers what my feelings about what markleake wrote. As for my labelling the troll on here a troll, notice how he hasn't come back with anything? That's a troll, they come and try to upend things and leave. He had no real grounds, so he was obviously just being a dick.

You wrote these two huge posts...I don't mean this in a condescending way, but most of what you wrote has already come up and been discussed in this topic. As I mentioned above, mc_deli more than adequately handled the little that seemed pertinent out of those unnecessarily huge posts. Not a criticism, just an observation, there wasn't much to comment on. Perhaps you should go back and read the other posts if you are unsatisfied.

As far as your criticisms about how I handle myself on this forum, etc...what do you care? You have your own life, challenges. Don't worry about me.

I've never once questioned you or your actions...no offense but it's because I don't really care what you do. I have my own life. It amazes me I feel compelled to have to say that, but apparently you don't respect that in others.

If you have something interesting or helpful, I'll read it and probably thank you for your input. You haven't, really. You mentioned from the beginning of your novellas you had some kind of arbitrary problem with me and the way I treat obvious trolls. Why would I give a rodent's hindparts about your silly infatuation?

More succinctly, why care so much about me, to go to all that trouble? Don't worry about it.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 17, 2017)

muk said:


> Erm, Parsifal, what happened to your resolve? To quote a post you made yesterday on a new bassoon sample library announcement:



I never said I'm not guilty of it. No disrespect, but why do you care? Two times in a row this morning I'm reading posts that mostly take the ad hominem approach to people who don't have anything really pertinent to say concerning the topic...at least, not anymore. You two turned this topic into one about me.

Any university debate class knows that the ad hominem-based argument is the least effective, and most unnecessarily feces-disturbing. Plus, it's personally offensive.

I'm no better than anyone here, I experience GAS like anyone. But that's not your problem now, is it.

As I told Mark, mind your own business.


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## muk (Jan 17, 2017)

Because I find the hype train on this forum a bit overbearing at the moment, and this thread made for a refreshing exception. But in this light your position looks ever so slightly inconsistent. Nevermind, carry on.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 17, 2017)

Obviously this thread is deteriorating rapidly with unprovoked personal attacks, bringing very little new to the discussion. Thus I take my leave.

There were so many great comments here it would take all day to single out all the wonderful people who took the time to leave their insights into this obviously pertinent topic.

Super thanks to all of you!


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## markleake (Jan 17, 2017)

@Parsifal666. I must admit I don't really understand. I don't disrespect you at all, I always value your posts. I wrote a post that agreed with some of your points and disagreed with other points. It expounded on each of your points in mostly the same order as you presented them. I gave you a TLDR if you didn't care to read my short essay (because yeah, it's long). I have provided far fewer words than you yourself have on the topic here. I can't see where I made any ad hominem attack. I deliberately went out of my way to be respectful so I wouldn't be misinterpreted because I could see the tone of this thread. I'm not particularly looking for people to like what I say, it's just my opinion... and like I say, I'm on holidays so it doesn't worry me to write stuff here.

So I am genuinely confused by your response. Is what I have said somehow offensive or taboo to say to the audience here, or to you?


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## DS_Joost (Jan 17, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Obviously this thread is deteriorating rapidly with unprovoked personal attacks, bringing very little new to the discussion. Thus I take my leave.
> 
> There were so many great comments here it would take all day to single out all the wonderful people who took the time to leave their insights into this obviously pertinent topic.
> 
> Super thanks to all of you!



Parsifal, it would be a shame for you to leave this wonderful topic. I get you exactly. I've been there. One minute talking about a new this or that and the next minute wondering what the point of it all is. I've been guilty of this as well. Don't react to these personal attacks, it's stupid and just stating that which you've obviously are aware of yourself. It takes no intelligence, it just stifles discussion. It's the lowest form of debate.

I do however feel you've overstated markleake's response though, which in no way seemed offensive or an attack.


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## markleake (Jan 17, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Your rose tinted spectacles are sparkling in the sunlight my friend.
> Who knows how many "young impressionable or vulnerable" people buy software they don't need... do the devs know their user data that well... do NI?
> How many people have got a Composer Cloud sub and used the libs for less than 10 hours, less than 20?
> How many people have bought a 300 quid lib and never used it?
> ...


I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm aware of the power of marketing and much of the psychology behind it. I totally acknowledge that hype does happen sometimes. That is why I was making the point that people *should* be educating the newer music creators here on this forum. If you look through my post history you will see me trying to do exactly that quite often, to the point of me questioning why people want to buy a library when they can't even articulate what they need it for.

Do I wear rose coloured glasses on some of the topics discussed here? I don't think so. I have a particular view about people entering the orchestral product space which sounds like it may differ from yours, although probably not that strongly. Plus I happen to think it isn't a bad thing that companies want to sell stuff. I do have issues with how/what some companies sell, but not really in the general sense that we are discussing here.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 17, 2017)

DS_Joost said:


> Parsifal, it would be a shame for you to leave this wonderful topic. I get you exactly. I've been there. One minute talking about a new this or that and the next minute wondering what the point of it all is. I've been guilty of this as well. Don't react to these personal attacks, it's stupid and just stating that which you've obviously are aware of yourself. It takes no intelligence, it just stifles discussion. It's the lowest form of debate.
> 
> I do however feel you've overstated markleake's response though, which in no way seemed offensive or an attack.



Then I sincerely apologize to *markleake*, very sorry. Really. I didn't mean to turn your posts into something they weren't. Apparently I did. My home situation hasn't been so great, and I took it out on you and* muk*. Sorry to both.

As a side note: I like to remain anonymous, for reasons of my own. But I imagine in this day and age it wouldn't be terribly difficult to find out who I am. And you wouldn't find much of interest (just to give you forewarning).

I'm a nobody and nothing, just some fool who spends too much time on these forums because he sucks at music (and knows it). I dream of being like Gustav Mahler, Wagner, Beethoven, Richard Strauss, all the while knowing it ain't ever happening.

This next part isn't necessarily about *markleake* (actually, not at all), but far be it for me to attempt standing in the way of a anyone's personal interest; check up on me enough and you'll find out who I am. Though I doubt anyone cares that much (and rightfully so, ain't much worthwhile to know). There are TONS of far more interesting people on this forum, famous and not, and judging by this thread they're also extremely insightful.


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## muk (Jan 17, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Any university debate class knows that the ad hominem-based argument is the least effective, and most unnecessarily feces-disturbing. Plus, it's personally offensive.
> 
> I'm no better than anyone here, I experience GAS like anyone. But that's not your problem now, is it.
> 
> As I told Mark, mind your own business.



Actually, I only took seriously what you wrote here. So, I genuinely wondered about your other posts. Don't worry, I'm certainly not investigating your identity. I respect anybodys wish to remain anonymous, and I post anonymously as well. And it simply doesn't matter. But I take seriously what you write here no matter who you are and what you have done, so these other posts were a bit surprising. And now I'll go mind my own business.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 17, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Then I sincerely apologize to *markleake*, very sorry. Really. I didn't mean to turn your posts into something they weren't. Apparently I did. My home situation hasn't been so great, and I took it out on you and* muk*. Sorry to both.
> 
> As a side note: I like to remain anonymous, for reasons of my own. But I imagine in this day and age it wouldn't be terribly difficult to find out who I am. And you wouldn't find much of interest (just to give you forewarning).
> 
> ...





muk said:


> Actually, I only took seriously what you wrote here. So, I genuinely wondered about your other posts. Don't worry, I'm certainly not investigating your identity. I respect anybodys wish to remain anonymous, and I post anonymously as well. And it simply doesn't matter. But I take seriously what you write here no matter who you are and what you have done, so these other posts were a bit surprising. And now I'll go mind my own business.



I was an idiot, and I'm really sorry to you both. *Mark*, you actually had more than several valid points in your points I was just blinded too much by troubles at home. And now I'm too ashamed to redact to your points, sorry again. I keep making the same mistake of bringing my troubles here. I'm going to work on that. Promise.


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## jononotbono (Jan 17, 2017)

I'm gonna be thinking about this thread when Spitfire release their Eric Whitacre Choir. Go on, hands up. Who's in?


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 17, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> I'm gonna be thinking about this thread when Spitfire release their Eric Whitacre Choir. Go on, hands up. Who's in?



Not that one, but the latest Strezov Wotan+Freyja deal is driving me cuckoo! I'M JUST AS GUILTY AS ANYONE ELSE! lol


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## markleake (Jan 17, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I'm a nobody and nothing, just some fool who spends too much time on these forums because he sucks at music (and knows it). I dream of being like Gustav Mahler, Wagner, Beethoven, Richard Strauss, all the while knowing it ain't ever happening.


Well maybe you fade a little in the light of some of these names, but I don't believe that anyone is a nobody. I've no interest in finding out who you are though, to me anonymous means anonymous. I also don't pretend to be too great -- I'm one of those 'n00bs' the old folk mention.


Parsifal666 said:


> and I'm really sorry to you both


No hard feelings. I understand now why you posted as you did. In your defense, my posts did happen to be rather long posts, and hence none-too-easy to digest.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 17, 2017)

Look, we mostly ALL experience this I think, the desire to buy something we may not need. In the end I think it should come down to this:

1. If I buy it, is that money that a more, well, adult decision would say should go to something else? In other words, if you put off paying your electric or gas bill, buying your child something he/she needs, etc.

2. If it is a purchase for a hobby and pleasure, is it money that others may spend on golf clubs and tee fees but you prefer this?

I just favorably reviewed Steven Slate's Virtual Microphone system for Ask Audio. It retails for $999 and had I decided to keep it, they would sell it to me for $749. I was tempted and my wife even urged me to but then I thought to myself, "How often am I recording a real player or singer here, other than my own vocals? Can I not record my own vocals decently with what I have? Is it not money I should put away for when I have to pay the IRS in April?"

I sent it back.


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## jononotbono (Jan 17, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I just favorably reviewed Steven Slate's Virtual Microphone system for Ask Audio



Great! I have been waiting for a decent review. I've been borrowing Microphones from a friend's studio for a little while so this could be a perfect solution for me! I hope it's as good as my expectations! Is the review out yet?


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## Ashermusic (Jan 17, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Great! I have been waiting for a decent review. I've been borrowing Microphones from a friend's studio for a little while so this could be a perfect solution for me! I hope it's as good as my expectations! Is the review out yet?



Not yet.


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## mc_deli (Jan 17, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Great! I have been waiting for a decent review. I've been borrowing Microphones from a friend's studio for a little while so this could be a perfect solution for me! I hope it's as good as my expectations! Is the review out yet?


LOL
/thread


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## jononotbono (Jan 17, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> LOL
> /thread


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 17, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> LOL
> /thread



I think mc_deli is pointing out the irony...it's good for the blood


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## jononotbono (Jan 17, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> pointing out the irony



There is no Irony here regarding me. I'm never gonna stop buying stuff. Ever. Even when I've died I'm going to get a mate to sample my Bones being hit with a selection of soft and hard Mallets and then put them into a Keyboard Controller. And then make him buy them in my name.


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## Quasar (Jan 17, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> There is no Irony here regarding me. I'm never gonna stop buying stuff. Ever. Even when I've died I'm going to get a mate to sample my Bones being hit with a selection of soft and hard Mallets and then put them into a Keyboard Controller. And then make him buy them in my name.



Make sure you get your calcium. When playing your virtual bones in Kontakt, I don't want the thin, brittle sound that results from having an osteoporotic density deficiency.


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## prodigalson (Jan 17, 2017)

I have a good system where if there's something that is released that appeals to me I will wait a month before purchasing (or at the very least until the very last day of any intro period) and if I still feel like I need it I buy. And very often, I end up not.

This is true for any large purchase I wish to make.


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## rottoy (Jan 17, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> There is no Irony here regarding me. I'm never gonna stop buying stuff. Ever. Even when I've died I'm going to get a mate to sample my Bones being hit with a selection of soft and hard Mallets and then put them into a Keyboard Controller. And then make him buy them in my name.


Don't forget the round robins or you'll be turning in your grave.


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## Zhao Shen (Jan 17, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> I'm gonna be thinking about this thread when Spitfire release their Eric Whitacre Choir. Go on, hands up. Who's in?



See the thing is, if that choir is anywhere near as good as it should be, then it won't be a mindless, useless "ooooo buy buy buy" expense. Let's face it, there aren't any choir libraries that can claim to have the realism (or comprehensiveness) that we've been able to achieve with string, brass, and woodwind libraries. Strezov Sampling's newest choirs probably come the closest.


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## Zhao Shen (Jan 17, 2017)

rottoy said:


> Don't forget the round robins or you'll be turning in your grave.



Literally. They will turn you over in your grave so that they can sample more round robins.


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## novaburst (Jan 17, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> You know, combining instruments to sound like other libraries might be an interesting and very helpful thread if anyone wants to start one.


This is at least another reason why at least more than one library is needed for each instrument.

Not so much to sound like another library but to layer and make usage of different dynamics, kind of like putting a puzzle together, so your main library may be great but for certain parts of your piece you prefer the sound and tone from a different library.

I am sure this is a common practice by many.

I have come to the point where I just can't allow one library to hold it down, to me it sounds to thin, and lonely if that makes sense, I like to use other librarys to build up the voice as opposed to eq even if eq does have its part to play .


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## novaburst (Jan 17, 2017)

dcoscina said:


> I didn't purchase Berlin brass as I own VSL Dimension Brass which ostensibly does the same thing- divisi brass.



Oh, I see............ my bet.......


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 17, 2017)

novaburst said:


> This is at least another reason why at least more than one library is needed for each instrument.
> 
> Not so much to sound like another library but to layer and make usage of different dynamics, kind of like putting a puzzle together, so your main library may be great but for certain parts of your piece you prefer the sound and tone from a different library.
> 
> ...



Not that my opinion means much, but this does happen to me. The Albion and East West Hollywood products can work marvelously imo. I've blended them trying to make Eine Alpensinfonie-sized monster orchestras, and gotten very good results, especially when I get the reverb just right. I thoroughly EQ'd the final mix, looking out for any harmonic masking between the instruments and ensemble.

What I wrote with this sound ended up sucking so bad I won't post it here lol!


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## danielb (Jan 17, 2017)

Real point here, I had the same though recently ... for sure it's very exiting to get new stuff that looks better, but it distracts us from the main object. making the best with what we already have... 
Stop looking around and focus on making music !


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 17, 2017)

danielb said:


> Real point here, I had the same though recently ... for sure it's very exiting to get new stuff that looks better, but it distracts us from the main object. making the best with what we already have...
> Stop looking around and focus on making music !



I had to reread my Albion One user manual last month due to a problem I'd come across and actually stumbled on a couple tips about the articulations that I must have missed the first time. Said tips were humongously helpful. So this time, I worked between reading the manual and using the library. This last approach has been the source of a lot of great learning in the past years. I ended up having all kinds of new inspirations for expressiveness in the track I was working on.

I guess my kind of drawn out point is, going back into your user manuals and video walkthroughs can make you feel like you just bought the library anew, it can be really refreshing. In libraries like that, you could learn things for time on end, there's that deeper side to them.


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## dpasdernick (Jan 17, 2017)

Syneast said:


> It's like when the ladies can't stop buying shoes or handbags. None of the products are better or worse, they all just have a slightly different character and you have to have them all. It's a collector's mindset. Nothing rational about it.
> 
> I realized I have a real problem with this when I bough the Gold upgrades for my EW Hollywood libraries. That's a lot of stuff to download and play with, but instead of downloading it I immediately started looking at walkthroughs of other similar libraries.
> 
> Rationally, I know that I am covered for orchestral sounds. I think I'm starting to become _emotionally_ convinced of this as well. Sure, Spitfire's new orchestra has a nice sound, but slap a good reverb on Hollywood Orchestra and that sounds pretty nice too.



Bingo...

When I feel the urge to buy new libraries I go back and listen to Thomas Bergersen's Itineris Spiritus and say to my self _"if you're writing above this level then maybe you can treat your self to something new" _
*
BUT...*

Thank God I never listen to myself and still go out and blow wads of cash on the latest and greatest thinking it will levitate me magically to that level... Who needs talent when you've got the latest shiny library?

I honestly think if I could transfer my sample addiction to something less additive like heroin or crystal meth i'd be a happier camper...


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## Quasar (Jan 17, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> ...going back into your user manuals and video walkthroughs can make you feel like you just bought the library anew, it can be really refreshing. In libraries like that, you could learn things for time on end, there's that deeper side to them.



This is true, but I'm even more pathetic than that. Reaktor, Melodyne 4 Editor and MDrummer Large are all products I purchased some time ago on sale (or with Komplete) that I've never learned how to use hardly at all... If I took the time to learn them I'd essentially have three new tools without spending another dime.

Not to mention that my skill with effects in general: EQ, etc. is clumsy and amateurish at best. This is another reason (besides lack of money) that I'm done buying for the time being. At least with my instrument libraries I've spent enough time with them to where I have a general clue. But the focus needs to be on both creating and learning, not on shopping and spending, fun though it might be.


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## Niah2 (Jan 17, 2017)

Many years ago I remember we were only presented with demos that sometimes were done mostly with fx, ornaments or phrase patches, making it really hard for costumers to evaluate a product.
Now there are walkthrough videos that go in depth over every feature and every patch.

Not saying that you guys are wrong but things have improved quite a bit over the years.


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## novaburst (Jan 17, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> What I wrote with this sound ended up sucking so bad I won't post it here lol!




It can be a little difficult to tame so many strings clustered together, but nothing beats a beautiful wave of strings.

I often wonder if the orchestral conductor places certain groups of string players up front because he or she loves the sound and tone of certain cellos or violins that player own, they may get shuffled round to where the tone can be heard at its best.

one thing is a skill full player another is a beautiful collective tone.


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## novaburst (Jan 17, 2017)

Tugboat said:


> Not to mention that my skill with effects in general: EQ, etc. is clumsy and amateurish at best



Ha ha........ but that GUI looks so nice ........I just got to have it all those pretty colours how can any one turn it down


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 18, 2017)

Kota said:


> Post a 15-20 second clip from one of the tracks. I would love to hear this!



Nah, the GPO might have fooled them, but what couldn't fool them was the fact that the album _*really*_ sucked. I'm sure someone much more talented could provide way better examples, sorry.


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## Syneast (Jan 18, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> There is no Irony here regarding me. I'm never gonna stop buying stuff. Ever. Even when I've died I'm going to get a mate to sample my Bones being hit with a selection of soft and hard Mallets and then put them into a Keyboard Controller. And then make him buy them in my name.


Hahaha. Just... actual LOL at work, scaring my work mates. Make sure to have at least one of the round robins cracking your skull.


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## Jaap (Jan 18, 2017)

dpasdernick said:


> Bingo...
> 
> When I feel the urge to buy new libraries I go back and listen to Thomas Bergersen's Itineris Spiritus and say to my self _"if you're writing above this level then maybe you can treat your self to something new" _



Bit off-topic, but thank you for pointing me towards this piece again. Still after almost 12 years it sounds amazing.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 18, 2017)

dpasdernick said:


> Bingo...
> 
> When I feel the urge to buy new libraries I go back and listen to Thomas Bergersen's Itineris Spiritus and say to my self _"if you're writing above this level then maybe you can treat your self to something new" _



Actually that would work for me if I'd just go listen to _anything_ by Gustav Mahler. Gee, ain't no way in HECK I'll buy anything ever again lol!


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## camelot (Jan 19, 2017)

For me it feels like we are in the same situation like the CGI/3D animation scene about 15 yeas ago, when professional tools for animation as Alias Maya started to became available for ordinary PCs.
The prices dropped and suddenly the community was swept over by zillions of hobbyists dreaming the dream of becoming the next ToyStory maker. The forums exploded and a lot of hype was going one. However, the wave has declined now and many communities (forums) closed.

With dropping prices for noble sample libs and ordinary PCs being able to handle those, the doors are open wide for everyone, which is actually a good thing. The prices had to drop to accomodate for this market.

Never before I found so many poeple on general music forums stating the idea to become a composer for game and film. We are om the top of the wave now.

Since I follow some other interests that include the use of gear that is not cheap, I am already quite aware of this addiction phenomenon. Therefore, I am usually more careful. But still, after evaluating walkthroughs, listening to demos and really identifying some potential gain for me, I found myself disappointed to some extend. We set too much hope into new products, believing that we are hold back by what we have and this new thing will finally deliberate us, salving our conscience, that this will surely be the last purchase for a long while.

As one practical example, I got BerlinBrass though I already use Cinebrass Core+Pro for years. Of cause, I thought this “new gen” library would change things noticeably and that I really need this divisi brass. However, as mentioned by others, there is not so much groundbraking new in these “new gen” libs anymore. The biggest change for me was the tremendous need of disc space as well as RAM usage forcing me to do extensive changes on my hardware setup. And in the end I am really wondering what is now the resulting gain for me of BB over Cinebrass and was it woth it. Lately, buying new libs for me turned out to be more a burden without bringing something potential to the table.

The hype for new gear (music gear or other) is apparent in every forum. But the hype here is really extreme sometimes. A good example as mentioned before, is the hype about an announcement of an announcement of an upcoming product. Ridiculous to a point.


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## novaburst (Jan 19, 2017)

camelot said:


> , there is not so much groundbraking new in these “new gen” libs anymore. The biggest change for me was the tremendous need of disc space as well as RAM usage forcing me to do extensive changes on my hardware setup. And in the end I am really wondering what is now the resulting gain for me of BB over Cinebrass and was it woth it. Lately, buying new libs for me turned out to be more a burden without bringing something potential to the table.



Well I am sure you would have got a ground breaking cost to purchase Berlin Brass if any thing.

I have heard some demos and mock ups of it and it really does sound nice, if I had the funds to purchase it I would not give it a second thought I would get it to use in my compositions.

It does bring me to say who are these library's, strings, brass, percussion, woodwinds and so on, just who are they aiming at what is there market.

Are they aiming at professionals who earn a considerable amount money from there compositions, musicians who play live, are they aiming at composers who need something life like to mock up for the real orchestra and again they are doing very well and earning quite a bit of cash if you like.

You see if these library's are aiming at the pro who makes a living from there music that's ok because a pro will always be searching for the next best thing just to be ahead of his or her rival.... yes

It just so happens there is not a do not purchase if you are not a pro... sign on the box (maybe they should be)
a bit like you can not drive unless you have a license, but believe me people still drive with out a license.. is that true, yes it is.

I can not see or do not expect any developer to put a purchase restriction on there products, but I can understand they will not stop a hobbyist or wanna be or dreamer, or unprofessional, or unlearned, or un understanding about orchestral, the developer is just not going to say no when some one is going to buy there product it just wont happen.

in fact it is easy to say if any one is going to purchase there product they must be in the music industry or they must be earning quite a bit of money so they probably feel they are making a lot of pros very happy.

You see if you have the cash you are going to go for it.

It just so happens these library's also attract so many different types of unprofessional people who don't know how to use the library, they cant be bothered to put the time or effort to learn the library, they become un happy with the library they don't know how to use, they moan and groan its not fair because they spent so much money on the library and they still are not playing like John Williams.

But to the pro thought is I cant wait to use this library, cant wait to learn it, cant wait to perform with it, cant wait to show others what I can do with it,

So you have a number of different attitudes.

If you are not doing much with your music you will complain you will always moan and groan and you will always find negatives with a product you cant be bothered with , if you are productive you have not got time to complain you will always find good things to say on how the library helped you do this or that you will just get on with it make music ......make music ..make music compose with it. produce with it, use it to its full not part way, accommodate for it, if it don't work then make it work.

There are no restrictions on how many librarys you want even if your unprofessional

But my guess is that the library is for the pro and not for the unlearned

There is to much information to be getting rubbish library's, if you have a library in your position take responsibility for it, .....it is you that purchased it, we should know and understand that hype is just hype we are living in a very informative world there is no need to purchase anything without some form of understanding, there is to much help in this area.

If we have the library its our responsibility not the developers.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 19, 2017)

It has nothing to do with pro or non pro. It has everything to do with how much instant gratification one requires. 

The only reason, not acumen or brilliance, that I became what I am was my patience, perseverance, and willingness to delay gratification.


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## bigcat1969 (Jan 19, 2017)

Very interesting thread. Thanks.
At what point do you hit diminishing returns? This seems to be at the heart of this thread and the heart of the industry. When do music producers as a group say I don't need a twelfth string library and sales start to fall? Is there even such a point? 

Since I'm a freebie dev guy it doesn't really effect me in the same way. Still I wonder after I get VSCO2 and Sontina out as Romplers the way I want them is there any point in doing any more free VSTi orchestral stuff as between the two of them they cover about every orchestral instrument. The next step up might be for folks to move up to pro instruments and come here or possibly hear and read all the advise. When do you say been there done that and move on? Sorry to go off topic, just happened to be on my mind and sort of related.


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## Lotias (Jan 19, 2017)

bigcat1969 said:


> Very interesting thread. Thanks.
> Still I wonder after I get VSCO2 and Sontina out as Romplers the way I want them is there any point in doing any more free VSTi orchestral stuff as between the two of them they cover about every orchestral instrument.


Absolutely, Sonatina is drowned in a reverb I don't really like unless I'm trying to get a vintage sound, and both could definitely do a little better with say, more round robins and articulation choices, not to mention velocity layers. They're also not really programmed to perform out of the box, either (no keyswitches even though the SFZ format can do it and no programming to use CC for dynamics, Sonatina doesn't use faux legato or portamento, etc.)

Of course I don't expect that they'll ever match commercial libraries because of financial and time constraints, but there are definitely ways for them to improve greatly, assuming it was even possible to get the recordings and someone dedicated enough to program them in the first place.

EDIT: Unless you meant from a "putting them together" perspective rather than a sampling perspective.


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## DSmolken (Jan 20, 2017)

Yeah, I took Meatbass and our cello and upgraded the sfz versions with opcodes for mod wheel dynamics and portamento last year, that was definitely worth it. Those could be borrowed (or turned into Kontakt scripts by someone, the principles are not complicated) and applied to Sonatina strings, to see how well that works. The EQ bands would probably need to be tweaked for the higher strings, but it might be useful. There's a ton to do in the free samples world.

I got a huge list of stuff I want to do. I quit producing music last September so I could spend more time on samples, because there's more demand for them.


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## Consona (Jan 20, 2017)

Guys, help me!!! I have some Agitato and Adagio libraries in my shopping cart.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 20, 2017)

Consona said:


> Guys, help me!!! I have some Agitato and Adagio libraries in my shopping cart.



I feel your pain. The Agitato is sooo tempting. And I* LOVE* my Viola and Bass, they're my default solos.


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## Consona (Jan 21, 2017)

Resisted. 

But I still need some more string libraries. Yesterday I did a mock-up of this piece which was recorded with live orchestra:

For those strings at 0:12 I've tried Leogria, Adagio Violins and Cinematic Strings 2 and Oh my god!, the CS2 staccatissimos sounded exactly like the piece, I was amazed, Loegria and Adagio shorts sounded rather bad I have to say, even Loegria shorts in time machine patches and tighter Adagio short articulations, they were just not able to keep up, CS2 sounded perfect right out of the box. But there's a hiccup and not a little one. As you can hear the arrangement is not so busy at the start so you can hear the instruments very clearly and CS2 shorts has some really bad clicks and hisses in the samples which are multiplied by the reverb and I was not able to switch off the round robins or anything like that, so while the sound itself was perfect, those clicks sounded bad. And on the other hand, of course, there I have Leogria and Adagio which have really clean samples but the libraries don't sound the way I'd prefer.

So there you have it, so much $/€/£ spend yet I still need a new string library. I've checked the Cinestrings and they might sound closest to CS2 yet their samples sounded really really clean from what I've heard in YT videos. So I'll wait until the next sale and buy them. I've checked the CSS too, but they don't sound as airy which is something I like about CS2 samples, they are silky with nice high end (yea, it's sometimes a little noisy but nothing an EQ would not solve).


edit: Ok, I could not believe Leogria was not able to make some nice shorts pattern so I tweaked the time machine patches and MIDI notes some more and it sounds much better now. CS2 is still the winner though. At least by doubling I was able to hide some of those noisy CS2 patches. Now I'll try to improve the Adagio take on those short notes.


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## PeterKorcek (Jan 21, 2017)

Consona said:


> Resisted.
> 
> But I still need some more string libraries. Yesterday I did a mock-up of this piece which was recorded with live orchestra:



Nice! HOMAM III is legendary game, although I did not like Fortress that much, the mockup is excellent!


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## Consona (Jan 21, 2017)

PeterKorcek said:


> the mockup is excellent!



The video is the original version from the game!  Sorry for confusion.


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## PeterKorcek (Jan 21, 2017)

Consona said:


> The video is the original version from the game!  Sorry for confusion.



:-D


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## SamplesSlave (Jan 22, 2017)

HOMM III. Argh. Bringing me back to my childhood!


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## camelot (Jan 22, 2017)

Consona said:


> But I still need some more string libraries. Yesterday I did a mock-up of this piece


With respect to the topic of the thread, why do you need to sound exactly like something else? Why would it be necessary to be able to exactly copy any sound that can be found somewhere? You should find your own sound. Unless you are totally unhappy with the sound you already got (but then I wonder why you got it in the first place), you have everything you need soundwise. You will find so many different sounds in the world. No need to cover them all. Free yourself from that burden!

When I go on concerts hearing excerpts from Star Wars or Lord of the Rings being performed, it sounds fantastic. Though in a one on one comparison with the soundtrack, they will not sound identical. But the live performance still sounds fantastic. 

This is not an attack on you and what you do in any way. For me this thread is not about attacking or condemning anyone. For me it is more about reflection and awareness. It is about ourselves.
Like sitting together in a group of sample addicts, where everyone is guilty and some are still denying it. 
I just want to init a thinking process and a bit of awareness.


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## Consona (Jan 22, 2017)

camelot said:


> With respect to the topic of the thread, why do you need to sound exactly like something else? Why would it be necessary to be able to exactly copy any sound that can be found somewhere? You should find your own sound. Unless you are totally unhappy with the sound you already got (but then I wonder why you got it in the first place), you have everything you need soundwise. You will find so many different sounds in the world. No need to cover them all. Free yourself from that burden!
> 
> When I go on concerts hearing excerpts from Star Wars or Lord of the Rings being performed, it sounds fantastic. Though in a one on one comparison with the soundtrack, they will not sound identical. But the live performance still sounds fantastic.
> 
> ...


Funny thing is that when I needed to overcome those noisy samples I decided to try Leogria time machime shorts again, was able to make them sound good and then after layering CS2 with those Loegria shorts I liked the final result much more even though it did not sound like the original, so yea, I agree with you.


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## robgb (Jan 25, 2017)

Consona said:


> Funny thing is that when I needed to overcome those noisy samples I decided to try Leogria time machime shorts again, was able to make them sound good and then after layering CS2 with those Loegria shorts I liked the final result much more even though it did not sound like the original, so yea, I agree with you.


Noisy samples, depending on the severity, can be fixed (I've done it with every string library I own). You simply have to be willing to go under the hood, find the offending samples, and use various methods to correct them. Sometimes the noise is coming from a single sample played at a specific velocity. It's easy enough to edit that sample out and stretch an adjacent sample to cover that note at that particular velocity. And your ears will never know the difference.


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## ghandizilla (Jan 25, 2017)

There are too much topics about "which sample library do I need" and not enough about "how can I get that sound with what I already have?" The former question is pertinent when you're a beginner, but not so much afterwards. For example, I realized that my MA2 investment was not that wise, because even if the instruments are quite "exotic", there are not sonically so alien: I feel I could have gotten similar resultats by working seriously on what I already have (which is : CineBrass). So I really enjoyed Rodney's post about emulating euphoniums with Cinesamples and VSL, and having read the whole discussion, I'm seriously considering buying Mike Verta's Virtuosity 1 class. I concur with the feeling that there has been no huge leap in "realism" for years, and I do believe sometimes a good scripting is better than a poorly programmed true legato (see SAM Brass). Which is why the first question when investing in a new library has not to be: does it sound more realistic? The good question is: how would it contribute to my workflow? I believe Adventure Brass and Sample Modeling stuff are excellent when you play live with a breath controller, but not if you work in a click-and-point manner. I guess Kirk Hunter Virtuoso (or Cinesamples ensemble patches) are excellent when you're a keyboardist wanting to accompany a band live and beforehand select which instrument goes to which range, so you can avoid overlapping, but are very limited for a more detailed work. I guess the Berlin series is great when you have time to be pointy and do the whole orchestrator job voicing the divisis. I guess Albion is great when you just want a broad orchestra sound for hybrid stuff, without filling the details, or for layering. As a matter of fact, getting a new library should be a question of workflow or filling a real void.


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## Consona (Jan 25, 2017)

robgb said:


> Noisy samples, depending on the severity, can be fixed (I've done it with every string library I own). You simply have to be willing to go under the hood, find the offending samples, and use various methods to correct them. Sometimes the noise is coming from a single sample played at a specific velocity. It's easy enough to edit that sample out and stretch an adjacent sample to cover that note at that particular velocity. And your ears will never know the difference.


I've tried to switch off the clicky staccatissimo samples but no matter what I did in Group Start Options all the round robins were played and the CS script editing is disabled.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 25, 2017)

ghandizilla said:


> So I really enjoyed Rodney's post about emulating euphoniums with Cinesamples and VSL, and having read the whole discussion,


Thank you, my friend! You made my day.


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## robgb (Jan 25, 2017)

Consona said:


> I've tried to switch off the clicky staccatissimo samples but no matter what I did in Group Start Options all the round robins were played and the CS script editing is disabled.


Look in the mapping editor for the notes that are clicking and replace them with notes that aren't. If they're all clicking, maybe that's simply part of the sound?


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## Consona (Jan 25, 2017)

robgb said:


> Look in the mapping editor for the notes that are clicking and replace them with notes that aren't. If they're all clicking, maybe that's simply part of the sound?


No, they are definitely unwanted artifacts. I'll try to look into the mapping editor, thx for suggestion.


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## robgb (Jan 25, 2017)

This is in CS2, right? I have CS2. Let me see if it happens in mine.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 26, 2017)

ghandizilla said:


> There are too much topics about "which sample library do I need" and not enough about "how can I get that sound with what I already have?" The former question is pertinent when you're a beginner, but not so much afterwards. For example, I realized that my MA2 investment was not that wise, because even if the instruments are quite "exotic", there are not sonically so alien: I feel I could have gotten similar resultats by working seriously on what I already have (which is : CineBrass). So I really enjoyed Rodney's post about emulating euphoniums with Cinesamples and VSL, and having read the whole discussion, I'm seriously considering buying Mike Verta's Virtuosity 1 class. I concur with the feeling that there has been no huge leap in "realism" for years, and I do believe sometimes a good scripting is better than a poorly programmed true legato (see SAM Brass). Which is why the first question when investing in a new library has not to be: does it sound more realistic? The good question is: how would it contribute to my workflow? I believe Adventure Brass and Sample Modeling stuff are excellent when you play live with a breath controller, but not if you work in a click-and-point manner. I guess Kirk Hunter Virtuoso (or Cinesamples ensemble patches) are excellent when you're a keyboardist wanting to accompany a band live and beforehand select which instrument goes to which range, so you can avoid overlapping, but are very limited for a more detailed work. I guess the Berlin series is great when you have time to be pointy and do the whole orchestrator job voicing the divisis. I guess Albion is great when you just want a broad orchestra sound for hybrid stuff, without filling the details, or for layering. As a matter of fact, getting a new library should be a question of workflow or filling a real void.


For those interested, I will post what @ghandizilla was referring to. This "euphonium ensemble" was a mixture of CineBrass Tuba Solo, Horn a2, and VSL Euphonium Solo and starts around the last minute:


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## robgb (Jan 26, 2017)

Consona said:


> I've tried to switch off the clicky staccatissimo samples but no matter what I did in Group Start Options all the round robins were played and the CS script editing is disabled.


Again, is this CS2 you're talking about? Because I just went through all my staccatissimo samples and found no clicks whatsoever. They sound pretty amazing, as a matter of fact. Maybe you need an update? Or to redownload the samples? An email to Alex?


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## Consona (Jan 26, 2017)

robgb said:


> Again, is this CS2 you're talking about? Because I just went through all my staccatissimo samples and found no clicks whatsoever. They sound pretty amazing, as a matter of fact. Maybe you need an update? Or to redownload the samples? An email to Alex?





Consona said:


> For example:
> 1nd violin, staccatissimo D#3, E3, rr 4, some clicky sound
> 2nd violin, staccatissimo nearly whole octave from C3 to C4, rr 2, rr3, some hissy sound
> celli, sustain, sustain D3, D#3, very noisy click
> ...


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## robgb (Jan 26, 2017)

Consona said:


> 1nd violin, staccatissimo D#3, E3, rr 4, some clicky sound
> 2nd violin, staccatissimo nearly whole octave from C3 to C4, rr 2, rr3, some hissy sound
> celli, sustain, sustain D3, D#3, very noisy click


Checked again, not hearing any clicks at all. I do hear some room sound on the 2nd violins at the tail end of the notes, but unless you're blasting it (my headphones are turned way up) it's very quiet. I've seen this to a much greater degree in other libraries (Auddict brass), so I simply put a gate/expander on it to shorten the release. But in a mix, it can't really be heard anyway.

Not sure what issue you're having, but you should contact CS to tell them about it.


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## Consona (Jan 27, 2017)

robgb said:


> Checked again, not hearing any clicks at all. I do hear some room sound on the 2nd violins at the tail end of the notes, but unless you're blasting it (my headphones are turned way up) it's very quiet. I've seen this to a much greater degree in other libraries (Auddict brass), so I simply put a gate/expander on it to shorten the release. But in a mix, it can't really be heard anyway.
> 
> Not sure what issue you're having, but you should contact CS to tell them about it.


This is weird since some other people confirmed clicks in those samples too.

Here's a demonstration:


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## robgb (Jan 27, 2017)

Consona said:


> This is weird since some other people confirmed clicks in those samples too.
> 
> Here's a demonstration:



Maybe I'm deaf after years of headphone abuse but I don't hear any clicks, assuming they're very high frequency. As for the longer notes, I do hear some room sound, but that would likely be lost in a mix and can be gated/expanded out. I honestly don't see the problem here, so feel free to ignore my advice.


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## DSmolken (Jan 27, 2017)

I hear some bow-wood-smacking-into-strings noises, not digital clicks.


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## Consona (Jan 27, 2017)

robgb said:


> Maybe I'm deaf after years of headphone abuse but I don't hear any clicks, assuming they're very high frequency. As for the longer notes, I do hear some room sound, but that would likely be lost in a mix and can be gated/expanded out. I honestly don't see the problem here, so feel free to ignore my advice.


You really don't hear those clicks in legato samples from 0:12? They are louder than actual samples. Or the motif at the start. You can hear obvious click in the last note of the motif.


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## robgb (Jan 27, 2017)

DSmolken said:


> I hear some bow-wood-smacking-into-strings noises, not digital clicks.


Yes. That's all I hear as well.


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## robgb (Jan 27, 2017)

Consona said:


> You really don't hear those clicks in legato samples from 0:12? They are louder than actual samples. Or the motif at the start. You can hear obvious click in the last note of the motif.


Tried it again with my monitoring headphones. No clicks. The only thing I've ever noticed in CS2 is that in some notes you can hear the faint sound of a stray string being accidentally hit. It's the kind of thing that can be left in for realism or edited out.


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## storyteller (Jan 27, 2017)

Consona said:


> This is weird since some other people confirmed clicks in those samples too.
> 
> Here's a demonstration:




I'm using HD650s. I can certainly hear the clicks... Though they are more pronounced on my Blue Sky monitors... especially the excessive noise in the middle section. But I had to know specifically what I was listening for to hear it in the first and last sections in my headphones. They were more apparent in the monitors (especially the attack click in a few of the last example notes). I can't imagine it would affect the outcome of a project though. Maybe it is more like Chinese water torture on the mind of the person who hears it every day. I don't use CS2 so I can't say for sure. But I do have different libraries that I dread playing specific notes because I can hear clicks and imperfections. Will anyone else hear it? Probably not. Will it affect the person who hears it intimately every day? I would definitely think so...


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## JohnG (Jan 27, 2017)

I don't know if a moderator could split this thread, since it's devolved into a narrow examination of a single library?

Useful to some but also a lot easier to find for those interested if it were split off with an appropriate title.


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## storyteller (Jan 27, 2017)

JohnG said:


> I don't know if a moderator could split this thread, since it's devolved into a narrow examination of a single library?
> 
> Useful to some but also a lot easier to find for those interested if it were split off with an appropriate title.


Haha.  Your post just made me notice the title of the thread. I didn't even realize how far it had shifted when I just replied. But I concur...


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## ghostnote (Jan 27, 2017)

Late to the party and didn't read the whole thread. Use what you have, samples are overrated. Soule and the Zimm-man (yes they are fighting crime, it's a new show) made samples look good ten years ago. Stop the spending, get the basics and learn to use it, mixing, programming, reverb. Don't use the sample libraries as an excuse. I'm out.


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## Consona (Jan 27, 2017)

JohnG said:


> I don't know if a moderator could split this thread, since it's devolved into a narrow examination of a single library?
> 
> Useful to some but also a lot easier to find for those interested if it were split off with an appropriate title.


Here's the original thread: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-strings-2-noises.59228/



robgb said:


> Tried it again with my monitoring headphones. No clicks.


I really don't know what to say, the legato clicks are loud as hell. But ok, no need to examite the problem further.


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## JohnG (Jan 27, 2017)

Consona said:


> Here's the original thread: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-strings-2-noises.59228/



the point is that this is no place for this discussion. A moderator should split the thread.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 27, 2017)

I'd split the thread if I knew how, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way to do that. Maybe people could just start a separate thread without moderator intervention?

In any case, my sense of the world is that in addition to the bar being raised all the time, people are also discovering that a lot of instruments from decades ago are still great!

Actually, it's not just instruments. Vinyl is making a comeback, for example, and to me it doesn't seem like it's just a fad.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 28, 2017)

Michael Chrostek said:


> Late to the party and didn't read the whole thread. Use what you have, samples are overrated. Soule and the Zimm-man (yes they are fighting crime, it's a new show) made samples look good ten years ago. Stop the spending, get the basics and learn to use it, mixing, programming, reverb. Don't use the sample libraries as an excuse. I'm out.


What, no mic drop??


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## Consona (Jan 28, 2017)

JohnG said:


> the point is that this is no place for this discussion. A moderator should split the thread.


That's why I put the link here.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 28, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> What, no mic drop??



Yo *YO* yo!


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## jononotbono (Jan 29, 2017)

4mins 11Secs


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## airflamesred (Jan 29, 2017)

If you folks aren't careful Donald is going to put a halt to all new sample libraries coming into the market place for 120 days until he can figure out what the hell is going on!


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Jan 29, 2017)

airflamesred said:


> If you folks aren't careful Donald is going to put a halt to all new sample libraries coming into the market place for 120 days until he can figure out what the hell is going on!



You better have a really good explanation ready for when CIA finds that Middle-Eastern ethnic library on your computer...


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## rottoy (Jan 29, 2017)

Mihkel Zilmer said:


> You better have a really good explanation ready for when CIA finds that Middle-Eastern ethnic library on your computer...


The more deeply sampled, the more severe the punishment.


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## Consona (Feb 19, 2017)

Just bought Adagio Cellos. 

It's quite funny. I bought Adagio Violins, did not use them for years, criticized them for various issues I had with them, today I layered them with CS2 violins and a few hours later bought Adagio Cellos.  It sounds fantastic, CS2 bring that silk and warmth and Adagio the definition. It sounds so alive and vivid, really happy with the sound.

Now I have to finally write my first symphony.


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