# POLL: To go with Apple M1 or not go with -- what's your choice?



## Al Maurice (Nov 1, 2021)

It's that time again, many of our working platforms are reaching EOL or are ready for an upgrade.

The industry is a buzz with shall I move to Apple Silicon, stay put and upgrade a preexisting platform or simply wait.

I thought it would be interesting to conduct a straw poll to see how everyone in the community is reacting to this.

Particularly those working in the industry who rely on these platforms on a day-to-day basis.


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## Futchibon (Nov 1, 2021)

Switched from PCs to the Mac mini M1 16GB a few months back, Logic runs great and 4K video editing is a breeze too. Great experience!


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## samphony (Nov 1, 2021)

I’ve switched to the M1 mini 16GB in December 2020 (did a lot of projects with it) and now to the M1Max fully loaded (24core gpu) 16“ MacBook Pro. 

My philosophy: have a fallback solution in place that works 100% and transition as early as possible in real world scenarios. 

The transition was “flawless” in most situations and the translation layer in combination with that new tech does wonders. 

I mean I’ve used migration assistant to migrate my 2013 vader helmet to the m1 mini and after the minis reboot I was able to continue working. 

Most of the time I left the racked up intel Mac minis turned off and had no need for vep. 

Also from a business point of view (my opinion) it only makes sense purchasing these top specced machines if it makes sense for tax return reasons. Sometimes it makes even more sense to lease that kind of tech if it is healthier for your business.


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## marius_dm (Nov 1, 2021)

I used to be a hardcore PC guy, building my own machines and all that. I was always against using laptops for music production because of heat/noise/throttling issues that I thought were unavoidable in that form factor. Everything changed with the M1 IMO. There's zero reason in my mind not to take advantage of the mobility offered by the new laptops.


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## KEM (Nov 2, 2021)

Once there’s a Mac Mini that can support 64gb of ram and a 4tb hard drive that’s what I’ll be getting


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## emilio_n (Nov 2, 2021)

Waiting for the next iMac Pro...


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## Al Maurice (Nov 2, 2021)

@KEM -- I'm kind of looking for something similar, would be great to recover some real estate on my desk.


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## cedricm (Nov 2, 2021)

Very interesting, if it's not all benchmarks and no fun for real, sustained workloads.
On the pricey side, though: 16" / M1 Max / 64 GB / 4 TB / Logic Pro = € 5,659.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 2, 2021)

Glad I kept limping along on Mac Pro cylinders x2 (Logic and ProTools HDn rigs) and i7 Mac Mini (for VideoSync) and didn't plonk down for a Mac Pro rack mount 7,1 (yet). Just got my fully-loaded m1max laptop and if they come out with a desktop AS Mac Pro in the next year or two that's what I want. Ready to kiss Intel goodbye. My 9-year-old i7 MacBook is only slightly less powerful than the room-heater 2019 i9 MacBook, and if that's all the improvement that Intel can pull off in NINE FREAKING YEARS then I'm ready to watch them ride off into the sunset.

My only worry is whether I can kludge ReWire on Apple Silicon + m1max + Monterey - to coax a few more years out of my Logic + Ableton + ReWire workflow, and I'll have the answer to that once I can spend a few hours with my new laptop. If it works, then I'm all in on Apple Silicon. 

If not, I may do a last-minute panic buy of a $35k rack Mac Pro setup.

See how stupid that sounds?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 2, 2021)

Went with a 2020 i7 iMac, it will do me for at least 5+ years....it's a beast. My peripherals work perfectly, and I've even ditched VEPro and the slave setup. When it's time to upgrade (years down the road), the M1's will have come a long way.


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## Al Maurice (Nov 3, 2021)

Hi Jeremy -- it's good to hear you managed to find an all in one solution that works for you, and potentially is usable over the medium term. 

Not all of Apple's M1 offerings are suitable for many of us right now. Perhaps they might have something more workable in the future.


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## Zedcars (Nov 3, 2021)

I’m with @KEM and I suspect a large proportion of people here will be too. I was really disappointed that they did not announce new M1 Mac Minis at the last event. I’ll definitely be poised to order a 64GB M1 Max Mini if/when it materialises next year. Hopefully in the 1st or 2nd quarter. The other issue is of course the support. Cubase is still not supported under AS and will only run under Rosetta2. Plus all the plugins I use.

But once all the pieces fall into place this has the potential to be a dream machine. Cautiously optimistic.

P.S. Max Mini sounds like an oxymoron…erm, it also sounds like a sanitary towel!!!


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## handz (Nov 3, 2021)

emilio_n said:


> Waiting for the next iMac Pro...


Why? next iMAC will be all you ever need for music or even video editing


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## emilio_n (Nov 3, 2021)

handz said:


> Why? next iMAC will be all you ever need for music or even video editing


iMac or iMac Pro or whatever they call it.  I mean the new big iMac that will arrive at the beginning of the next year.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 3, 2021)

Al Maurice said:


> Not all of Apple's M1 offerings are suitable for many of us right now. Perhaps they might have something more workable in the future.


That's why I went with the 2020 (final version of the *Intel iMac*). My Apogee Element wasn't yet supported with M1, along with other software, so it made sense to skip M1 if I wanted a seamless transition from my 2013 MacBook. Plus, I wanted to max out the Ram.


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## zah (Nov 3, 2021)

I'll get a Pro or MaxM1 when it's available for a mac mini. (But Apple may not have those available for a mac mini in the future).


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## KEM (Nov 3, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> I’m with @KEM and I suspect a large proportion of people here will be too. I was really disappointed that they did not announce new M1 Mac Minis at the last event. I’ll definitely be poised to order a 64GB M1 Max Mini if/when it materialises next year. Hopefully in the 1st or 2nd quarter. The other issue is of course the support. Cubase is still not supported under AS and will only run under Rosetta2. Plus all the plugins I use.
> 
> But once all the pieces fall into place this has the potential to be a dream machine. Cautiously optimistic.
> 
> P.S. Max Mini sounds like an oxymoron…erm, it also sounds like a sanitary towel!!!



I’d say it’ll be at least another 2 years before most plugins have native support for Apple Silicon, but once they all do it’ll be the best platform to make music on for sure


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## machinesworking (Nov 3, 2021)

KEM said:


> I’d say it’ll be at least another 2 years before most plugins have native support for Apple Silicon, but once they all do it’ll be the best platform to make music on for sure


I would cut that in half. Native Instruments is the major holdout IMO, they apparently are using 15+ year old graphics frameworks, which will take forever to fix. They also recently "restructured" their company along with iZotope into a "partnership", which looks a lot more like they were bought out by a third party who replaced their CEOs and thinks this is a good marketing strategy to sell people on the takeover.


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## darkinners (Nov 3, 2021)

Held out on the last year M1 13" due to the 16GB Ram limitation. Now switched to the M1 Max 64GB, couldn't be happier.


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## EgM (Nov 3, 2021)

I find the performance interesting but the idea of having a single board with everything soldered on is not something that would work for me.

Maybe as an everyday machine, web/emails/etc but not for my DAW


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 3, 2021)

EgM said:


> I find the performance interesting but the idea of having a single board with everything soldered on is not something that would work for me.
> 
> Maybe as an everyday machine, web/emails/etc but not for my DAW


I thought like that years ago....until I bought a new MacBook Pro in 2013. I can attest it has been solid ever since, and was my DAW machine, producing countless professional productions and meeting deadlines reliably. The only reasons I upgraded to the iMac recently is because I had some downtime and had the finances.


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## EgM (Nov 3, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I thought like that years ago....until I bought a new MacBook Pro in 2013. I can attest it has been solid ever since, and was my DAW machine, producing countless professional productions and meeting deadlines reliably. The only reasons I upgraded to the iMac recently is because I had some downtime and had the finances.


I bought two iMacs 27' and both failed (AMD GPUs) so I really don't want that happening again. I'm used to PCs where if my GPU dies, I buy a new one and done  Apple cost for GPU replacement out of warranty was 800$ each...

But GPU aside I think the SSD on board is what scares me the most


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## Vik (Nov 3, 2021)

EgM said:


> But GPU aside I think the SSD on board is what scares me the most


Please elaborate?


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## Nico5 (Nov 3, 2021)

EgM said:


> But GPU aside I think the SSD on board is what scares me the most





Vik said:


> Please elaborate?


It seems that Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external SSD

More context and discussion at HackerNews


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 3, 2021)

EgM said:


> I bought two iMacs 27' and both failed (AMD GPUs) so I really don't want that happening again. I'm used to PCs where if my GPU dies, I buy a new one and done  Apple cost for GPU replacement out of warranty was 800$ each...
> 
> But GPU aside I think the SSD on board is what scares me the most


I agree, that is indeed unnerving.


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## EgM (Nov 3, 2021)

Vik said:


> Please elaborate?


The Apple silicon M1(x) is an all in one chip, it contains everything, CPU, GPU, RAM and SSD. If anything fails, the machine is a doorstop. If a replacement board is available at a decent out-of-warranty price it changes things though.


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## easyrider (Nov 3, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Glad I kept limping along on Mac Pro cylinders x2 (Logic and ProTools HDn rigs) and i7 Mac Mini (for VideoSync) and didn't plonk down for a Mac Pro rack mount 7,1 (yet). Just got my fully-loaded m1max laptop and if they come out with a desktop AS Mac Pro in the next year or two that's what I want. Ready to kiss Intel goodbye. My 9-year-old i7 MacBook is only slightly less powerful than the room-heater 2019 i9 MacBook, and if that's all the improvement that Intel can pull off in NINE FREAKING YEARS then I'm ready to watch them ride off into the sunset.
> 
> My only worry is whether I can kludge ReWire on Apple Silicon + m1max + Monterey - to coax a few more years out of my Logic + Ableton + ReWire workflow, and I'll have the answer to that once I can spend a few hours with my new laptop. If it works, then I'm all in on Apple Silicon.
> 
> ...


Or just build a windows machine that will destroy any MAC in its path 😜


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## EgM (Nov 3, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Or just build a windows machine that will destroy any MAC in its path 😜


Charlie without EXS24.... Hmmm


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## Nico5 (Nov 3, 2021)

I'm currently running a split strategy in multiple dimensions

Win10 desktop as my music studio computer
MacBook Pro with MacOS as my daily driver
Linux (CentOS) on my servers
and I'm still undecided about my next upgrade cycle between the high level options:

Pool my money to move to a single powerful Apple Silicon MacBook Pro
Continue my split strategy
a moderately powerful MacBook Pro w. Apple Silicon
a relatively powerful Win 11 desktop for the music studio

Here's my current (obviously subjective) and continually evolving list of high level considerations:


Advantages MacOS with Apple Silicon​Advantages WinPC (desktop)​
Security and Privacy
Apple Mobile device handoff
Lower thermals (quiet) on laptops.
Less varied hardware for app developers to target
Generally a bit smoother overall experience

Repairability
Upgradability
Internal expandability
Backwards Compatibility
Easier "tinkering"
More internal port choices
Easier for future hardware migration to Linux


My decision is a little bit extra muddled because I'm also conflating inherent laptop vs desktop considerations, and I also consider maintaining experience on multiple platforms generally as positive.


Advantages
Single Powerful Laptop​Advantages​Moderate MacBook plus Powerful PC Desktop
Fewer installations and upgrades
Portability

Not all eggs in one expensive basket - especially after warranty expires
Maintain experience with multiple platforms


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## easyrider (Nov 3, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> I'm currently running a split strategy in multiple dimensions
> 
> Win10 desktop as my music studio computer
> MacBook Pro with MacOS as my daily driver
> ...


Nice post, My studio PC is water cooled and virtually silent. Ryzen 5950x 16 core 32 thread.So low noise and low thermals are absolutely doable on a windows PC. So I have added to your list.


Advantages WinPC (desktop)​
Lower thermals (quiet)
Repairability
Upgradability
Backwards Compatibility
Easier "tinkering"
Easier for future hardware migration to Linux
Superior Performance for less cost
More Native USB and USBC ports, Thunderbolt ports , add on TB card for more ports.
More internal storage capacity 4x NVME drives plus SSD
Run more Monitors Depending on GFX card choice.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 3, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> I'm currently running a split strategy in multiple dimensions
> 
> Win10 desktop as my music studio computer
> MacBook Pro with MacOS as my daily driver
> ...


If you are a Logic user who works professionally, then going all-in on a powerful Mac is the way to go. If you're not a Logic user, go the Windows route. Otherwise, there's no real advantage to continuing with Mac IMO.


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## Nico5 (Nov 3, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Nice post, My studio PC is water cooled and virtually silent. Ryzen 5950x 16 core 32 thread.So low noise and low thermals are absolutely doable on a windows PC. So I have added to your list.


thanks for the kind words - and for sharing your experience in keeping things quiet on a Windows desktop. I amended my post to lower thermals being an advantage on Apple Silicon laptops.

Just a question of curiosity - how many PCIE lanes does the 5950x support? My current (ancient) i7-4930K based setup has 40 pcie3 lanes, which is kind of nice. Side note: I built that PC back around 2013/14 as my alternative to an entry level trash can Mac and over the years upgraded a lot of parts. It turns out to have been a good call.


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## easyrider (Nov 3, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> thanks for the kind words - and for sharing your experience in keeping things quiet on a Windows desktop. I amended my post to lower thermals being an advantage on Apple Silicon laptops.
> 
> Just a question of curiosity - how many PCIE lanes does the 5950x support? My current (ancient) i7-4930K based setup has 40 pcie3 lanes, which is kind of nice. Side note: I built that PC back around 2013/14 as my alternative to an entry level trash can Mac and over the years upgraded a lot of parts. It turns out to have been a good call.


X570 actually includes sixteen PCIe lanes, in addition to the 24 PCIe lanes on the CPU, with a total of 4 (four) 4-lane physical interfaces (4x PCIe 4.0 x4 PHY), fully configurable in PCIe x16, x8, x4, x2, x1, and SATA modes. The X570 chipset offers 8x USB 3.2 Gen 2, 4x USB 2.0, 4x SATA and 8 separate PCI-Express 4.0 lanes. That leaves eight flexible lanes that can be used for PCI-Express and SATA.


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## Nico5 (Nov 3, 2021)

easyrider said:


> X570 actually includes sixteen PCIe lanes, in addition to the 24 PCIe lanes on the CPU


So are you saying that those 16 lanes on the mobo are talking to the CPU in parallel to the 24 CPU lanes? I have to admit, I've never found that explained quite clearly.

After much reading, I was left with the impression that the CPU lanes were the max total parallel pcie i/o the CPU was capable of - and that the chipset lanes are a configurable/sharable subset that needs to fit into the existing CPU lanes.

In other words, my interpretation was that the chipset uses 16 of the 24 available CPU lanes, leaving 8 lanes for more direct CPU i/o.


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## easyrider (Nov 3, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> So are you saying that those 16 lanes on the mobo are talking to the CPU in parallel to the 24 CPU lanes? I have to admit, I've never found that explained quite clearly.
> 
> After much reading, I was left with the impression that the CPU lanes were the max total parallel pcie i/o the CPU was capable of - and that the chipset lanes are a configurable/sharable subset that needs to fit into the existing CPU lanes.
> 
> In other words, my interpretation was that the chipset uses 16 of the 24 available CPU lanes, leaving 8 lanes for more direct CPU i/o.


4 of the 24 lanes from the CPU are used for the connection to the chipset. So, it's actually 20 usable from the CPU + 16 from the chipset for a total of 36 usable lanes


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## Nico5 (Nov 3, 2021)

easyrider said:


> 4 of the 24 lanes from the CPU are used for the connection to the chipset. So, it's actually 20 usable from the CPU + 16 from the chipset for a total of 36 usable lanes


So the bandwith available for the 16 connectable chipset lanes gets squeezed into 4 CPU lanes thus maxing out the i/o from the chipset lanes at 4 lanes worth of i/o bandwidth? So for example, connecting several 4x NVMe SSDs plus a 4x audio interface via the chipset, would all share the same 4 lanes. As a result, one really would want to stay away from the chipset lanes when needing massive parallel i/o?

I think that's where some of the workstation CPUs facilitate significantly wider parallel bandwith to the CPU.


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## easyrider (Nov 3, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> So the bandwith available for the 16 connectable chipset lanes gets squeezed into 4 CPU lanes thus maxing out the i/o from the chipset lanes at 4 lanes worth of i/o bandwidth? So for example, connecting several 4x NVMe SSDs plus a 4x audio interface via the chipset, would all share the same 4 lanes. As a result, one really would want to stay away from the chipset lanes when needing massive parallel i/o?
> 
> I think that's where some of the workstation CPUs facilitate significantly wider parallel bandwith to the CPU.


Ask @Pictus 😂


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## dunamisstudio (Nov 3, 2021)

Had an old Mac Pro, switched to Windows and built a new machine last year.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 3, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Or just build a windows machine that will destroy any MAC in its path 😜


... and take how many hours of research, tweaking bios, cleaning registry, or just plain learning about stuff that's completely unrelated to music, and which I don't care about knowing at all?

My first Microsoft OS was DOS 3.1 on an IBM PC Portable - the "luggable" sewing-machine-looking thing with the amber CRT and two 5.25" floppies in 1984. My last Microsoft OS was Win 95 on a P4 - and there won't be any more!

I don't really care how much these computers cost in terms of money, but I do care how much they cost in terms of TIME. With the Apple ecosystem my time expenditure is at an absolute minimum. 

The only time I've invested in my current rig is to install a new boot drive in one of my four Macs because I wanted more space (one screw, ten minutes), and then upgraded its MacOS from the version it came with to Mojave which was came a few years later. The OS upgrade took a little longer because I wanted to do a clean install from zero and manually assess and reinstall all the apps and plugins. 

But my ProTools machine, my VideoSlave mini, (both eight years old) and my laptop (nine years old) are all still on the OS versions they came with and have needed zero tweaking or fiddling in all that time. Add to cart, unbox, apply power, get to work. THAT'S what I'm paying for. 

Worth every penny.


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## GtrString (Nov 3, 2021)

I just got a Mac mini 2019, i7 with 64gb ram and 4tb ssd (external). I have an iPad M1, and while it's good, it doesn't hold a candle to the desktop. I will transfer to silicon when the new generation beats the 2019, but I expect 3-4 years from now.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 3, 2021)

EgM said:


> Charlie without EXS24.... Hmmm


Hahahah yeaaahhhh... NO. Not gonna happen. 

I'm just doing a feature score and it's 99% EXS. The three or four instances of Kontakt I've needed to use on this project have created so much more hassle and little time delays on loading a new instance or just opening the UI on an instance that's already loaded, it's just nuts. It's like a sea anchor slowing everything down. EXS loads instantly, and calling up a 3gb piano sample map takes mayyyybeeee two seconds. Flipping through normal sample maps is so fast it's like changing patches on a hardware analog synth, just bing-boom. I scroll through those suckers so fast, just hammering on the "next preset" button. 

...and my whole EXS and raw WAVs libraries fit on the 8tb internal drive on my new m1max MacBook Pro, and any cue from my big rig loads in seconds on the laptop, with every single element in place. No slaves, no VEPro, no copy protection, no NI Access... I just did a quick test and the laptop runs the same projects with less CPU load than my Mac Pro (which is an 8-year-old 12-core Xeon to be fair).

Plus, since Logic has "Keep common samples in memory when changing projects" when I switch between cues, only the EXS patches that are different from one project to the next actually load - the rest stay in place, so it's like VEPro "Preserve" but "Disconnect" where each project has unique settings for all front-panel stuff like mod matrix, filter, ADSR, LFOs, etc. but the samples stay loaded. Switching projects with 768 instances of EXS takes five seconds max, even on my 8-year-old Mac Pro cylinder with all SATA sample SSDs. Plus, I like to adjust filters, ADSRs, sample start points, pitch-bend range, and tempo-synced LFOs on every patch, and many Kontakt orchestral libraries don't even have those controls brought out to the front panel, which is really frustrating. Going under the hood of a Kontakt instrument (when you're even "allowed" to) and fishing through the hailstorm of groups to manually add a filter and then adjust it is just stupid. But all that stuff can be tweaked on the EXS front panel and those settings will be recalled with the project but will NOT affect the saved version of the instrument file - unless you explicitly want to push those settings downward permanently. It is just so good.

THAT'S why I convert everything to EXS. So much faster, so much better, so much easier in the heat of battle.

And since EXS is not a plug-in, it can't be used in VEPro or in any other DAW except Logic. Looks like I'm stuck with the old girl.


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## easyrider (Nov 3, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> ... and take how many hours of research, tweaking bios, cleaning registry, or just plain learning about stuff that's completely unrelated to music, and which I don't care about knowing at all?



TBH it’s not really like that now with windows unless you buy into a completely new Platform in its infancy stage. Take Ryzen now 5950x. There have been 14 bios updates since it’s release. Now it’s Mature you would build it and it would be relatively hassle free.


charlieclouser said:


> My first Microsoft OS was DOS 3.1 on an IBM PC Portable - the "luggable" sewing-machine-looking thing with the amber CRT and two 5.25" floppies in 1984. My last Microsoft OS was Win 95 on a P4 - and there won't be any more!



Oh the memories !


charlieclouser said:


> I don't really care how much these computers cost in terms of money, but I do care how much they cost in terms of TIME. With the Apple ecosystem my time expenditure is at an absolute minimum.
> 
> The only time I've invested in my current rig is to install a new boot drive in one of my four Macs because I wanted more space (one screw, ten minutes), and then upgraded its MacOS from the version it came with to Mojave which was came a few years later. The OS upgrade took a little longer because I wanted to do a clean install from zero and manually assess and reinstall all the apps and plugins.
> 
> ...


Apart from waiting 60 seconds for Kontakt to load? 😜

Did you get to the bottom of it?


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## José Herring (Nov 3, 2021)

I need to be able to switch my vote. I originally voted "Interested but not Persuaded Yet", I'm sure now that I'll be switching to a Mac with an M1 chip as soon as the pro version gets into a Mac Mini or even a Mac Pro provided it's still cost effective. 

I'm rejoicing in the fact that after 15 years of building PC's because of price performance ratios, I may soon be able to put that phase of my life behind me. And, I may finally be able to switch back to my preferred DAW, DP. But still on the fence about the DAW switch because switching DAWS again, yeah...I might be gettin' too ol' for that shit.


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## BassClef (Nov 3, 2021)

I am waiting to see what desktop options (mini pro or iMac 27-32" with the MacBook Pro silicon) are coming early next year.


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## Al Maurice (Nov 3, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I need to be able to switch my vote. I originally voted "Interested but not Persuaded Yet", I'm sure now that I'll be switching to a Mac with an M1 chip as soon as the pro version gets into a Mac Mini or even a Mac Pro provided it's still cost effective.


You've persuaded me to allow switch your vote, as another potential user of DP and Mac Mini voter.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 3, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Apart from waiting 60 seconds for Kontakt to load? 😜
> 
> Did you get to the bottom of it?


I did. Turns out that the long cold-load time for Kontakt is related to the eight zillion .plist files that get created in the Preferences folder - one for each and every NKS-compatible instrument or effects plugin that is installed on the system. Even worse, some are created in the global Preferences folder and some in the User folder. On my rig, that's about 900+ files, and since I don't use NKS or Komplete Kontrol, I don't need any of those. Dragged them all out of the Preferences folder to a safe location, leaving only the ones for Kontakt itself and all the Player-compatible instruments (because these files deal with authorization somehow), and boom - cold load time down to 3 seconds for K5 and 5 seconds for K6. If I remove all the .plist files for all of my Player libraries cold load time is almost instant, but I have hundreds of Player libraries that load in demo mode unless their .plist files are in place. Hooray for copy protection!

The long scan time of these .plist files may be related to a disc permissions issue, but I've repaired and reset permissions and it made no difference. If permissions are getting wrecked, it's NI or its partners' fault.

The NI support engineer was helpful and responsive, but he was leading me down many a dusty trail before someone on here suggested taking a look at the .plist files. I haven't closed the ticket as I have work on deck but after I deliver I may revisit the issue and try to get a definitive solution. To be fair, I'm on a version of MacOS that is many years old, and I've been piling stuff onto that boot drive forever, but everything else works very quickly and the machine as a whole is snappy and responsive - except for NI stuff. Once Kontakt or any other NI instrument is instantiated, switching tracks with the chain-link icon in the plugin window enabled is almost instant (not as fast as EXS but not bad at all) - it's just that first instance that takes 3 or 5 seconds. Of course, loading a project that contains Kontakt instances adds that 3 or 5 seconds to the load time, but that's still way better than the 45 seconds it was before I cleaned the .plist files.

In my opinion it's just plain bad hygiene and poor software engineering from NI or its NKS partners, and all for something (NKS + Komplete Kontrol) that I would never use. I tried out the whole NKS+KK ecosystem and it's just the most janky, beginner-level, slow-ass clump of code that's ever been on my machines. And for what? So knobs on a keyboard I don't own will show parameter names? So I can use a keyboard I would never buy to browse presets from a tiny color display instead of a gigantic 4k monitor?

It's garbage. Ok, fine, don't use it then. Okay, I won't. But there's no way to prevent NI or its NKS partners from installing those damn .plist files.

Now that I know the .plist files are the problem, it takes 10 seconds to stash them out of the way, but it was someone on here and not NI support engineers that pointed to the solution.


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## Al Maurice (Nov 4, 2021)

I agree to some extent, who needs the fuss of messing with cables, settings and configuration. If you can make a device work for you straight out of the box. But for many since Windows 10 came out, now means most of this in the past. Since I bought my laptop, I've hardly fiddled with any settings, just some to relax the hibernation features that make music making a non-pleasurable experience.

When I specced my requirements out, I looked forward to a time when the base configuration needed energising to make it more sprightly in today's terms. Enabling me to swap out the SSD and memory for faster equivalents in terms of random access reads and writes. Hopefully giving me another year or two until either Apple Silicon or Intel Alder Lake provides another solution for next few years.

Looking at Apple's offerings now, they seem to have produced equivalents of their Intel line up.

M1 -- as an i3 equivalent, M1X Pro -- i5, and M1X Max -- i7.

With each product line aimed at a slightly different market segment, but each one is a closed box, so if you need to update or repair these, you're out of luck. Not to say the PC market is much better, as they've been going the same way for the last five years or so.


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## samphony (Nov 4, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> THAT'S why I convert everything to EXS. So much faster, so much better, so much easier in the heat of battle.



Charlie,
I think you could do tutorials about converting to EXS.



charlieclouser said:


> And since EXS is not a plug-in, it can't be used in VEPro or in any other DAW except Logic. Looks like I'm stuck with the old girl.


It’ gets constantly updated and called sampler now, no?

Logic is the only DAW i know that now has a dedicated global sampler settings tab in preferences.


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## benwiggy (Nov 4, 2021)

KEM said:


> I’d say it’ll be at least another 2 years before most plugins have native support for Apple Silicon, but once they all do it’ll be the best platform to make music on for sure


It might be an idea to start a thread listing which VSTs/AUs are M1 native, and adding to it as versions are released.

I'll start: Plogue's free Sforzando plug-in is native, and it will play all the Garritan libraries. (ARIA Player isn't, but will likely become native when Finale does.)


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## charlieclouser (Nov 4, 2021)

samphony said:


> Charlie,
> I think you could do tutorials about converting to EXS.
> 
> 
> It’ gets constantly updated and called sampler now, no?


Yeah, the new "Sampler" is quite excellent, with many improvements and really only a couple of changes that I didn't like. One great new feature is that Instruments are now dealt with as if they were normal plugin settings, as opposed to the old EXS method where there was a separate browser tab for them. You could still load/save/copy/paste plugin settings for EXS, but that settings file was just a pointer to a separate EXS Instrument file, so there was the potential for dependency issues. The new way does make things simpler and clearer. 

Somewhere in the archives of this site I did a few long-ass posts about converting Kontakt to EXS, but they're probably out of date as I was relying on Redmatica KeyMap, Chicken Translator, and Kontakt v5 instruments which Translator could convert. From Kontakt v6 onwards, the instrument cannot be read or translated by any non-NI product. Major dick move, thanks NI.

For k5 instruments I still use Chicken Translator, but for k6 I just spray out the WAVs from unlocked instruments, clean up the names using a batch renaming utility, and then use KeyMap to build EXS instruments - but with Sampler I don't need KeyMap anymore as most of what I used it for is built-in to Logic now. Sure, there's no scripting, custom UI, true-legato-transitions, or any of that fancy stuff - but I don't need any of that anyway.


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## GNP (Nov 4, 2021)

Mac or Win, I have to use Kontakt and there are many times I really hate it!


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## GNP (Nov 4, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Major dick move, thanks NI.


Another major dick move is that NI coded Kontakt 6 and above Libraries Tab to completely shut out any "improper" libraries that we used to be able to custom make for ourselves. Fuck NI.

This is why I've paid them, but I'm not using their "official" version. Fuckers.


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## easyrider (Nov 4, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I did. Turns out that the long cold-load time for Kontakt is related to the eight zillion .plist files that get created in the Preferences folder - one for each and every NKS-compatible instrument or effects plugin that is installed on the system. Even worse, some are created in the global Preferences folder and some in the User folder. On my rig, that's about 900+ files, and since I don't use NKS or Komplete Kontrol, I don't need any of those. Dragged them all out of the Preferences folder to a safe location, leaving only the ones for Kontakt itself and all the Player-compatible instruments (because these files deal with authorization somehow), and boom - cold load time down to 3 seconds for K5 and 5 seconds for K6. If I remove all the .plist files for all of my Player libraries cold load time is almost instant, but I have hundreds of Player libraries that load in demo mode unless their .plist files are in place. Hooray for copy protection!
> 
> The long scan time of these .plist files may be related to a disc permissions issue, but I've repaired and reset permissions and it made no difference. If permissions are getting wrecked, it's NI or its partners' fault.
> 
> ...


Glad You got it sorted…NI have been very lucky in the fact they have sort of become the “industry standard” on 20 year old code….bit like AVID Protools….

The fact the coders can’t upgrade the GUI in 2021 to adapt to 4K screens is a joke tbh….

In fact I don’t think the coders can’t….they just CBA, way to much work when people will continue to use it due to having no other choice.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 4, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I don't really care how much these computers cost in terms of money, but I do care how much they cost in terms of TIME. With the Apple ecosystem my time expenditure is at an absolute minimum.


This is exactly why I've been on Mac for years. My new iMac has literally been working flawlessly since taking it out of the box last April, zero issues. The first production I completed paid for the iMac within it's first month of use, so it already owes me nothing. No messing around with trying to put together a custom PC, no tweaks, no second guessing compatibility.


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## easyrider (Nov 4, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> This is exactly why I've been on Mac for years. My new iMac has literally been working flawlessly since taking it out of the box last April, zero issues. The first production I completed paid for the iMac within it's first month of use, so it already owes me nothing. No messing around with trying to put together a custom PC, no tweaks, no second guessing compatibility.


Until you upgrade your OSX





__





MacOS Monterey - what audio software works so far?


Alright crew. Having taken the latest Monterey public beta for a spin, I can give a (cautious) heads up that the following workhorses appear to work without issue: ☑️ Logic Pro (latest) ☑️ Kontakt (latest) ☑️ Spitfire Player (BBCSO, LABS, various "originals") Also, NI Native Access and the...




vi-control.net






https://vi-control.net/community/th...dio-software-works-so-far.113028/post-4947609


https://vi-control.net/community/th...dio-software-works-so-far.113028/post-4947626


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Until you upgrade your OSX
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No problemo. I always make sure my main apps and peripherals are compatible before upgrading.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Nov 4, 2021)

I am waiting for them to release the Mac mini next-gen and then I will see

But I will use a Windows machine as a server for VE Pro as well
Since I would need a Windows machine capable of running and testing VMs and for video work anyway!


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## noxtenebrae17 (Nov 4, 2021)

I'm running an M1 Mac mini 16GB Master with an x570 Ryzen 3900x 64GB PC Slave (will 64GB more when RAM prices aren't insane). Using VE Pro to network the two together.

Built the PC about a year ago for just about $1000 and glad I did because I can run my entire 200+ track Logic orchestral template with ease and the Mac mini runs great without having to have anything internally loaded except for effect plugins and a few local VI's.

I replaced an ancient 2010 Mac Pro that I was using before. While that computer ran mostly great, it also didn't support latest versions of macOS/Logic so it was becoming ancient. Plus the M1 chip runs everything way faster for day to day tasks.


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## easyrider (Nov 4, 2021)

noxtenebrae17 said:


> I'm running an M1 Mac mini 16GB Master with an x570 Ryzen 3900x 64GB PC Slave (will 64GB more when RAM prices aren't insane). Using VE Pro to network the two together.
> 
> Built the PC about a year ago for just about $1000 and glad I did because I can run my entire 200+ track Logic orchestral template with ease and the Mac mini runs great without having to have anything internally loaded except for effect plugins and a few local VI's.
> 
> I replaced an ancient 2010 Mac Pro that I was using before. While that computer ran mostly great, it also didn't support latest versions of macOS/Logic so it was becoming ancient. Plus the M1 chip runs everything way faster for day to day tasks.


Are all you samples stored on the 3900x PC?


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## noxtenebrae17 (Nov 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Are all you samples stored on the 3900x PC?


Yes, but I can also load them on the M1 Mac Mini as I have an external SSD drive that I can load the same samples if I need to add a single instrument to a project that isn't in my template.

The only thing I don't load on the PC is synths, those are all on the Mac mini (as my synths change from project to project).


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## easyrider (Nov 4, 2021)

noxtenebrae17 said:


> Yes, but I can also load them on the M1 Mac Mini as I have an external SSD drive that I can load the same samples if I need to add a single instrument to a project that isn't in my template.
> 
> The only thing I don't load on the PC is synths, those are all on the Mac mini (as my synths change from project to project).


I’m interested in this just to try Logic….maybe get a Mac Mini Refurb….


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## Al Maurice (Nov 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I’m interested in this just to try Logic….maybe get a Mac Mini Refurb….


That's a great choice, it might work out cheaper. This is something I might consider later on.


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## Vik (Nov 4, 2021)

When working with large orchestral libraries: 

In a setup with a master computer and a slave, wouldn't it make most sense to let the computer with fastest processor (since most single core and multi core performance is important for VI users), best memory bandwidth etc handle the samples (given that it has enough RAM)?


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## Al Maurice (Nov 4, 2021)

For all those waiting for Mac Mini Pro or Max, here's a possible taster; although it might just be rumour gate once again!


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## Vik (Nov 4, 2021)

Al Maurice said:


> it might just be rumour gate once again


It probably is – some of these Mac rumour youtubers are rather shameless when it comes to knowing release date and price of Apple products.


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## BassClef (Nov 5, 2021)

Vik said:


> It probably is – some of these Mac rumour youtubers are rather shameless when it comes to knowing release date and price of Apple products.


His guess is no better than mine or my plumber's!


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## LamaRose (Nov 5, 2021)

The M1 architecture is a game changer... whatever you decide, build around this chipset and you won't look back. Within 12 to 18 months, CPU/GPU performance will be a non-issue regardless of your midi/sample/video needs.


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## Vik (Nov 5, 2021)

LamaRose said:


> Within 12 to 18 months, CPU/GPU performance will be a non-issue regardless of your midi/sample/video needs


True, if you buy a Mac Pro or a Mac Pro mini the performance will be no issue, but the price of those machines could be an issue, especially for Europeans with higher sales tax, bad dollar rate and generally higher prices.


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## Randolph (Nov 5, 2021)

I'm a hobbyist and don't need bleeding edge for my projects. I bought an M1 Mac Mini a couple of weeks ago. My Macbook Pro dates back to 2014, and still runs great, but can struggle with newer apps. 

I wanted to wait for a second or third generation Mini with more ports and an even faster architecture, but needed the performance upgrades now.

I picked up an Apple refurb 512gb/8gb after seeing how little difference the extra ram was registering on speed tests (No option for an 8GB model in the poll). Also, I didn't want to lose too much resale value if Apple releases a must have upgrade in the next year or two.

The downside is the same for any upgrade. Downloading and installing 240+ plugins and apps, de-authorizing and deleting them on the old Mac, authorizing them on the new one. Redesigning my backup drives structures for two Macs, adding new backup drives. 

Fortunately most of my libraries on external drives were easily recognized. Unfortunately Logic and a few other apps required a full re-install and wouldn't recognize anything already there. Not to mention the, "How in the heck did I miss that?" moments when transferring data to the new Mini. 

It's all done now and the workflow is much better. Most of my plugins are M1 compatible which is nice since I put off this purchase until I could use the full power of the M1. I hope the Mini is as reliable as my Macbook has been.


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