# Mouse or Trackball?



## TravB (May 14, 2015)

Your favorite and why?


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## gsilbers (May 14, 2015)

apple mouse/magic mouse since I can scroll my daw horizontally as well as vertically with one finger. 

trackball is very annoying but seems its all the rage on pro studios.


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## clisma (May 14, 2015)

Studio setup: trackpad on the right, Kensington trackball on the left with customized buttons. Shortcuts to drag and double-click. Slightly faster and easier on the hands. 

Home setup: trackpad on the right, Contour Design Shuttle Pro on the left, with tons of customizations to save time and strain. 

Started going two-handed 5 years ago and it's relieved some strain from repetitive motion in my right hand. Trackpad allows me to never use force. Paired with good ergonomics and a sitting/standing desk, I can work long hours over weeks and still not have repercussions. Very happy.


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## samphony (May 14, 2015)

Kensington Slim Blade Track Ball plus trackpad for scrolling. The Track Ball is ergonomically better against any strain.


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## Kardon (May 14, 2015)

Wacom Bamboo tablet and pen for most work. I still need the mouse for scroll wheel sometimes. I plan to upgrade to an Wacom Intous Pen and Touch soon, and hope to eliminate the mouse. 

The tablet and pen are very fast and accurate (more so than a trackball for me), and eliminated my repetitive stress problems from too much mousing.


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## Richard Wilkinson (May 14, 2015)

Magic trackpad has been brilliant for me. It also means there's no difference in control muscle memory when I switch from desktop to laptop.


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## EwigWanderer (May 14, 2015)

I've been thinking this option:

https://evoluent.com

Does anyone have any experience with vertical mouse?


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## Iostream (May 14, 2015)

Logitech trackman (the kind that uses the ball under thumb). I have been using them for years, and they last forever. I have only had to replace them when connection technology changed (ps/2 -> USB, wireless).


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## sinkd (May 14, 2015)

Trackball for about 9 years now.


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## synthic (May 14, 2015)

Logitech mice, only!


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## clisma (May 14, 2015)

EwigWanderer @ Thu May 14 said:


> I've been thinking this option:
> 
> https://evoluent.com
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with vertical mouse?



Yes. I've had almost all input devices I could get my hands on, including this one and I just could not find a way to have my elbow resting and still moving my hand enough to accomplish large movements in vertical position. Although the positioning is pretty comfortable and more natural. Also clicking sidewise felt weird. I know - very scientific critique!


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## TravB (May 14, 2015)

Thanks for the input everyone. I've personally never used a trackball, but am considering it. I also notice several of the newer mice and trackballs have additional programmable buttons... anyone finding good use for those?


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## snattack (May 14, 2015)

I only use high precision game mice, Razor preferably. It's probably in regards to what you're used to, but since I'm an old gamer, I'm very sensitive when it comes to precision and responsiveness in the mouse so that you can memorize exactly how much movement is needed for finding different stuff on the screen.


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## charlieclouser (May 14, 2015)

Kensington Expert Mouse trackball FO' LIFE! Been using them since the ADB Turbo Mouse days - more than 20 years now. No carpal tunnel problems here. I did cut a hole in my desktop so that the rear edge of the Expert Mouse is recessed by about an inch or so - now it sits flat and flush with the desk surface and is much more comfortable, like the built-in trackball on the SSL Duality console.

Scroll ring gives you navigation scrolling and zoom, and edits knob values in most plugins. Flicking the cursor across multiple 32" monitors is WAY easier on the ball than on the mouse.


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## wst3 (May 14, 2015)

I'm with Charlie - the Expert Mouse rules! Exceedingly comfortable, even for long periods of time, the four buttons can be assigned on a per-application basis, and the scroll ring works really well.

When my previous Expert Mouse finally died I replaced it with their more conventional track ball. It works, but I still prefer the Expert Mouse.

Today I picked up an Expert Mouse for CAD work at the office - and I'm sold again. Should have been using the Expert Mouse for CAD work all along!

So tonight I am ordering a new Expert Mouse for the DAW...

Well worth the price!


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## ankely (May 14, 2015)

Charlie and wst3,

What drivers are you using for the Kensington Expert Mouse?

Thanks.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 14, 2015)

> apple mouse/magic mouse since I can scroll my daw horizontally as well as vertically with one finger.
> 
> trackball is very annoying but seems its all the rage on pro studios.



I agree, and while I *can* use a trackball, I just don't get why so many people are in love with them. To me they're incredibly cumbersome.

I use an Apple Magic Mouse for pointing + Magic Trackpad for gestures. Actually both for gestures with BetterTouchTool, that magnificent free program.

I also have a Mobee Magic Numpad overlay/software that turns the Magic Trackpad into a 10-key when toggled on.


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## charlieclouser (May 14, 2015)

ankely @ Thu May 14 said:


> Charlie and wst3,
> 
> What drivers are you using for the Kensington Expert Mouse?
> 
> Thanks.



None. 

Mac OS natively supports the scroll ring, so with various combinations of shift and option keys you can use the ring to scroll L+R, Up+Down, and zoom. 

MacOS also correctly senses the left and right buttons separately, so no drivers are needed to have the left button be the "select" tool (arrow), the right button be the "fade" tool, and command-left-button be the "scissors" tool - that's how I use it. If you use the Kensington MouseWorks software (or other third-party enhancement tools) you can enable "chording" which will enact commands when two buttons are hit together, assign deeper functions to individual buttons, etc. 

Personally I never use these features, and I've never pressed the top two buttons in my entire life - the bottom two and the ring are enough for me. I've never even installed the Kensington software or any other mouse software in the past decade or so.


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## ankely (May 14, 2015)

Charlie,

That's interesting.

The OG MouseWorks software had a beautiful pointer curve, not so good scrolling.

I'm on 10.6.8 so I can continue to use MouseWorks, but the scrolling is killing my hands (I edit and chop bazillions of sound libraries. See my sig for more info).

I have since started using ControllerMate for most of my gadgets as I use Kensington Expert Mouse, Logitech TrackMan Wheel, TrackMan Marble, Wireless TrackBall M570, Apple Wireless Keyboard and Trackpad and a Targus Numeric Keypad, Contour Shuttle Pro 2, and a Logidy UMI3 depending on the workflow. I have a similar setup on a 10.8.5 drive for newer versions on Kontakt.

This is why ask about drivers. My hands, shoulders, back and knees are killing me. Still haven't found the right combination of gadgets, drivers, workareas and workflows. Seriously, the pain is almost immobilizing. Any tips appreciated.


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## charlieclouser (May 14, 2015)

The best thing I've done for ergonomic relief is to recess the Expert Mouse so that it sits flush with the desk surface - like the built-in Expert Mouse OEM mechanism on the SSL Duality console. To do this I cut a hole the size of the Expert Mouse housing and fabricated a support underneath that dropped the rear edge of the unit by about 1.5 inches. This meant that my wrist was at much less of a "cocked back" angle and helped a lot. I chop like mad all day long, but I prefer a minimalist workspace with the bare minimum of clutter. Here is a picture:


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## ankely (May 14, 2015)

Charlie,

Cool.

I have a Keyboard & Mouse wrist pad thingy that gets my hands up above the table top that has helped a bit too. It keeps the hand from being cocked at a goofy angle. I use a 3 ring binder with an old ESQ1 manual in it to prop up the keyboard and keep a fairly level angle and plane across both the keyboard and Expert Mouse.

I kinda stole that idea from a post and pic of yours elsewhere as above. LOL.

Thanks.


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## Saxer (May 14, 2015)

this is my mouse pad chair. it helps me working while sitting upright an relaxed. it removed all my pain.


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## ankely (May 14, 2015)

Saxer,

That's a cool idea !!!


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## catsass (May 15, 2015)

Logitech Performance MX for me. It's solid, heavy, and just feels good in my hand.


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## Walra48 (May 15, 2015)

Kensington Expert Mouse Trackball all the way. Had one for the last 6 years.
No more carpal tunnel. So much more intuitive. Have it all configured for my workflow.
It is a game changer when you start using one. Buh-bye mice.


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## Pietro (May 16, 2015)

I recently bought Logitech Master MX mouse. Overall very comfortable. The horizontal wheel is usefull for example for Sibelius (to do +/- 1 chromatic changes). I like it, I'll keep it, but I feel like next time, I will buy a gaming mouse with lots of buttons. Extra buttons on a mouse turned out to be the deal changer for me. 

Consider how many times a day you have to lift your hand off the mouse (or your left hand from the left side of your keyboard) to press the delete button. Now imagine you have the key on the mouse. Copy, Paste, or functions (in Sibelius or macros in Cubase), that you usually set Ctrl+Shift+Alt or some other uncommon keyboard "shortcuts" for. And then, everything programmable per application (which the Master MX is missing!).

What his Master MX has though, is ability to add gestures. Three of the buttons can act as gesture buttons. You can add an action to it being pressed while dragging the mouse in one of the 4 directions. Each of the 3 buttons can have their own sets of gesture actions. I have yet to incorporate these fully into my workflow, but then I've only been using it for a few days.

So for me, trackball wouldn't work, I think.

- Piotr


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## scarred bunny (May 16, 2015)

Interesting thread. I have a silly question for those using trackballs and graphics tablets instead of mice. Is this mainly for ergonomic reasons and to prevent RSI problems, or do you also find that it's faster and more accurate than using a regular mouse after adapting to it? 

I've never used anything but mice personally. As long as I have one that's appropriately sized and shaped for my hand and a smooth enough surface for it to glide on, I've never had any RSI problems at all. But since I spend most of my time clicking around in the piano roll, I'm always looking for ways to become more fast, fluid and efficient. 



TravB @ Thu May 14 said:


> Thanks for the input everyone. I've personally never used a trackball, but am considering it. I also notice several of the newer mice and trackballs have additional programmable buttons... anyone finding good use for those?



Yeah, this is a pretty good idea. I have a mouse with some assignable buttons that I set up to trigger key commands in Cubase. Still experimenting and haven't settled on what's most useful to me - right now they change tracks and grid values in the midi editor. I also have a gaming keyboard with an array of extra assignable buttons on the left-hand side that I use for similar things. Basically, anything (especially functions that would otherwise involve digging into menus or drop-down lists) that I can assign to a key/button somewhere that's always under or close to my hand is a big time saver.


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## charlieclouser (May 16, 2015)

scarred bunny @ Sat May 16 said:


> Interesting thread. I have a silly question for those using trackballs and graphics tablets instead of mice. Is this mainly for ergonomic reasons and to prevent RSI problems, or do you also find that it's faster and more accurate than using a regular mouse after adapting to it?



Well, a mouse requires MUCH more movement to accomplish the same task - your whole arm needs to move, but with a trackball it's just your fingers, and they always stay in the same place, unlike with a trackpad where you still need to move around a bit. I've used multiple big monitors for 20+ years, and as soon as I got my first three-monitor setup, using a mouse was just impractical compared to a trackball - I'd wind up "pedaling", or swiping the mouse all the way across the mousepad, then lifting it up and moving it back to the other side, then swiping it across again, just to get the cursor to move from one side of the display array to the other. 

When the Kensington Turbo Mouse first came out, it had software to adjust the tracking curve, so that it was less sensitive when moved more quickly, and more sensitive when moved slowly. This meant you could give it a hard shove and let the ball roll (like on the old Centipede arcade video game) and the cursor would race to the opposite side of the display, then you could move it slowly and precisely to zero in on the element you wanted to click.

In recent years, this type of acceleration algorithm has become built-in to the MacOS, so I don't even need to use the Kensington software anymore, but there are third-party "mouse enhancement" drivers that allow you to fine tune the response. The Kensington software also had (and may still have) the ability to use modifier keys that, when held, allowed a tiny movement of the ball to instantly jump the cursor to a pre-defined "hot zone", so that provided even quicker jumps across huge display areas.

Now I use three displays, with the center one being a 4k monitor, so that's almost 9,000 pixels across all three - with a mouse or trackpad I'd be "pedaling" all the time, but with the ball I can just give it a shove and the cursor leaps across the displays - and my hand never needs to move from its basic position. Plus, my right thumb is now located right over the 10-key pad on the Mac keyboard, and I use the enter, plus and minus, and number keys to accomplish my most-used transport and editing functions. I use modifier keys and the scroll ring to do all my scrolling and zooming, and it's been years since I had any discomfort in my wrist, shoulders, or arms resulting from 14-hour shifts behind the controls. 

The trackball is the true way of the ninja.

The Expert Mouse is the most well-built, longest lasting, and smoothest operating one there is, and I've tried them all - Marble, Orbit, even a couple of industrial OEM panel-mount units designed for harsh environments, but the Expert Mouse reigns supreme. I've been using them since the 1990's when they were white ADB units called Turbo Mouse. I've bought enough to last for the rest of my life - literally - I have, I think, eighteen brand-new in boxes waiting to be deployed, and I absolutely will not work without one. I get about two to three years out of each one, and one thing I've found is that they get slicker and smoother as the years go by, as oils from your fingers lubricate the synthetic rubies (really) that the ball rests on, and friction smooths the surface of the ball. On my rigs it's hugely noticeable, and when I install a fresh unit it takes a few months until it feels as smooth as the one it's replacing. I even have a couple of well-broken-in but not entirely worn-out units that I keep on standby in case a fresh unit gets installed and I become irritated that it's not broken-in yet and feels "sandy" - I can go to one of the old favorite units if I need to work fast and want that slick, "second-year" feel.

For something that I touch literally more than any other thing in the studio, and at around $100 each, it's not something to cheap out on. Chair, desk, speakers, displays, keyboard and trackball - those are the critical items in the rig - synths, guitars, cabling and effects units come and go, but the stuff you touch all day, every day, is the stuff I don't mind spending big on.


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## samphony (May 16, 2015)

I did it mostly regarding ergonomically reasons but then my desk its height adjustable as well as I'm more creative when standing. It feels a bit like conducting your own work 
The slim blade is just awesome. the difference to Charlie's Expert mouse is that it is slimmer and the whole trackball acts as scroll wheel as well when turned. The trackpad beside the track ball is just for smoother scrolling sometimes and again for ergonomically reasons. I like to move around a lot.

I'm using another favorite DAW besides Logic which is already multi touch aware and specifically programmed with that in mind as well. So for me the next logical consequence will be a multitouch touchscreen added to the rig but only once the technology is useable on mac as well and displays are not a huge big brick on my desk or have a huge lag hen moving controls and faders.


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## wst3 (May 16, 2015)

For me it is a combination of ergonomics (hand health) and workflow - not sure the two can really be separated.

I used to switch between a mouse and a trackball regularly to avoid any sort of RSI, but the Expert Mouse is large enough that I don't need to do that anymore.

Having my hand in one place is not just healthier (for me) but also quicker.

Four buttons is usually enough I have them configured as left, middle, and right clicks, I reserve the fourth one for some feature or another depending on the application.

Charlie's comment about them aging well is spot on - I just got one for CAD work, and it is much stiffer than I remember, but then I remember that they all start out a little stiff, and quickly get smoother.

I also use acceleration so I can move from one screen to the next with minimal motion. That setting can be a little tricky to get right.

Multi-touch gestures seem to be maturing, and eventually I expect to see a device not unlike current tablets that is intended specifically to replace the mouse or trackball. Hmmm... new project???


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## dgburns (May 16, 2015)

kengsinton trackball for me too....but I also use an ipad/lemur/osculator for mouse click and scrolling. 

the right hand is on the mouse and the left on the ipad for mouse click,which is saving my right hand thumb a bit,I might be pressing the trackball click a bit too hard.

I also use the ipad for scrolling ,two faders,one for vertical and one for horizontal,which is way better then the o ring on the trackball for me when scrolling up/down in LPX in the arrange page.Way better.But it sucks balls in Cubase for some reason,all scrolling does for me not sure why.

could see using more of the ipad for mouse features going forward


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## Pietro (May 16, 2015)

[quote="dgburns @ Sat May 16, 2015 16]the right hand is on the mouse and the left on the ipad for mouse click,which is saving my right hand thumb a bit,I might be pressing the trackball click a bit too hard.[/quote]

Which leaves me with a question of how many hands do you have :D. You need to use your computer keyboard. Your two hands are already making for a substitution of a mouse. I use keyboard heavily. I would say, I use keys as much as I use the mouse buttons. Mouse mainly for selection (now also some basic functions, thanks to the Master MX). For me, and option with two hands busy pointing at stuff, moving them, selecting manually, would be impossible to work with.

- Piotr


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## scarred bunny (May 16, 2015)

Thanks for the responses everyone. Especially Charlie for the long and detailed write-up (rumor has it you did the drum programming for the classic Manson album I'm listening to when writing this - cool ). 

What I do on my mouse is adjust the sensitivity and acceleration curves so I don't have to move a lot; it's mostly subtle finger motions, my hand moves less than an inch when going from one side of the screen to the other. I can see why that wouldn't be enough for a multi-monitor setup though, and - come to think of it - might be part of the reason why I wasn't entirely sold on multiple screens when I tried it. Using the trackball-hand thumb to maneuver the keypad sounds like a brilliant idea. 

My interest certainly has been piqued. Since I spend almost all day every day in front of the computer I figure it's worth spending some time experimenting. I went to my local electronics store today but couldn't find any trackballs. I did pick up a Wacom tablet though, and while it's cool and all, my first impression is I don't see it becoming a viable mouse replacement for me anytime soon. Pretty cool for drawing CC/automation curves though. And it's always fun to doodle stick figures in Gimp and whatnot, especially when I should be working.  

So I went and mail ordered a Kensington Expert Mouse. Should be here sometime next week. It'll be an interesting experiment. 

Thanks guys. 



> I did it mostly regarding ergonomically reasons but then my desk its height adjustable as well as I'm more creative when standing. It feels a bit like conducting your own work



Standing desks are pretty cool. I tried that for a while but ultimately decided I didn't fancy standing all the time, so I went back to my regular desk. I guess having one that you can adjust from standing to sitting height easily would be the ideal - gonna have to look into that.


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## samphony (May 16, 2015)

Yes my Desk is adjustable so I can't stand and work or while sitting. It's mor dynamic for me and makes it easier to work long hours. So workout is already included


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## dgburns (May 16, 2015)

Pietro @ Sat May 16 said:


> [quote="dgburns @ Sat May 16, 2015 16]the right hand is on the mouse and the left on the ipad for mouse click,which is saving my right hand thumb a bit,I might be pressing the trackball click a bit too hard.



Which leaves me with a question of how many hands do you have :D. You need to use your computer keyboard. Your two hands are already making for a substitution of a mouse. I use keyboard heavily. I would say, I use keys as much as I use the mouse buttons. Mouse mainly for selection (now also some basic functions, thanks to the Master MX). For me, and option with two hands busy pointing at stuff, moving them, selecting manually, would be impossible to work with.

- Piotr[/quote][/quote]

heavy use of shortcut keys on lemur results in less keyboard gymnastics for me.The right hand prefers the keyboard(musical not computer) and the left is usually either ipad doing fader cc11 or cc1 while recording lines with the right hand playing.
Or just moving swiftly between keyboards and ipads fairly fluidly. I'm constantly assessing the shortest path to many tasks that I(and assuming "we") do hundreds of times a day and try to bring those down to the shortest amount of arm,finger and hand movement.
I've studied many guys sitting in their chairs doing the work,and basically we all end up writing music,but after awhile,you tend to predict what keystrokes you will use,and try to create the shortest way to achieve them.I don't find the mouse to be the fastest way,just the most appropriate when doing a new task or one that is not used very often.
anyway,just my two cents.analyze your activity during a writing session and try to see what keystrokes you end up using alot.I imagine it might be very different for us all,but you might gravitate to certain ones based on your preferred working style and the music you create.if so,why is it that the control/alt/shift plus a key is the way to go.Not so in my books,I'd prefer a pad on the lemur stating the specific function to the finger dance across the keyboard.
my thoughts anyway.


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## Wunderhorn (May 16, 2015)

TravB @ Thu May 14 said:


> Thanks for the input everyone. I've personally never used a trackball, but am considering it. I also notice several of the newer mice and trackballs have additional programmable buttons... anyone finding good use for those?



Despite its (for our purpose) misleading name, "gaming mice" are very useful. I am using a Mad Catz R.A.T.5 - it looks futuristic, but it is precise and has a second scroll wheel to be used with the thumb that allows for sideways scrolling. Very handy and not many mice have that!

Also, there is a another thing: Griffin PowerMate which is essentially one big round button with multiple programmable actions. It is really good for scrolling through endless MIDI data ans scores!


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## Hawkes (May 17, 2015)

Saxer @ Thu May 14 said:


> this is my mouse pad chair. it helps me working while sitting upright an relaxed. it removed all my pain.



I have a similar setup... customized chair with an armrest platform for the mouse. I covered the platform with black pleather to match the chair. It really helped me have less back pain not having to reach/hunch forward.

I use the logitech wireless trackman. I think I've been on trackballs for 15 yrs or so.


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