# Bumble bee, with different libs! Join in!



## germancomponist (Jan 18, 2010)

We all know this piece, bumblebee. (Hummelflug)

Because a snippet from this piece was used to demo a new lib someone asked about a snippet arranged with LASS.

Ok. I thought: This piece is pretty fine and, arranged with samples, can show how different sample libraries (can) sound. 

So I have got an idea: I think it would be pretty fine to listen to arrangements you did with your libs. 

I would do it with HS, but because this lib is not finished yet I would do it with my other libs. Maybe later with HS.

There are LASS, VSL, EWQLSO, String Essentials2, Kirk Hunter, GPO and more libs on the market. And if you like to mix your libs, this is also fine.

So, who is interrested to join in and is willing to do an arrangement with his lib or libs and post it here?

I think this would be very cool and also show what a lib/s can do and also what you can do with your lib/s. 

Gunther


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jan 18, 2010)

*Re: Bumblebee, with different libs!*

What's the deal with Bumble Bee? I don't think Bumblebee is the best example to use, unless you do at least half the piece.


----------



## Rob (Jan 18, 2010)

*Re: Bumblebee, with different libs!*

I'd gladly do that...


----------



## nikolas (Jan 18, 2010)

Guy: HS did bumble bee so it can take part in the comparison. Plus it's a well know track and probably scores and parts (even midi files) can be easily found.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jan 18, 2010)

*Re: Bumblebee, with different libs!*

Let me try to put it this way, take a 7 note run, you cannot reconnect these notes with individual notes, they are a team, a group with it's own DNA and each note is played a certain way to achieve that group effect, and I'm not even talking about dynamics. I believe medium fast speeds are possible to do with virtual strings but not like the BumbleBee, all the lib will sound bad at that speed.

Ok Nikolas, I see why the Bumble Bee. Still bad choice for me.


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 18, 2010)

*Re: Bumblebee, with different libs!*

I wasn't impressed with teh Bumblebee example, but was with the end piece with the full orchestra setup.


----------



## david robinson (Jan 18, 2010)

tina goe.
anyone?
j.


----------



## Hannes_F (Jan 18, 2010)

The bumble bee example is useless because it is only fascinating if you feel as the audience that the player(s) are at the edge of physical ability but still running smooth (halfway). The fascination of speed - pretty stupid actually but works at places.

As soon as you can program the thing it is pointless. You could even program it to run double the speed, so what?

Play a Mozart divertimento well with samples, then then you are king.


----------



## david robinson (Jan 18, 2010)

bumblebee = showtime.
j.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 18, 2010)

Guy took it. 

Bumble bee because its fast tempo. One has to be tricky with the samples, but I think it would work. So, who will do it?

If I am not allone with this, than I do it with my customized SO in combination with SE2.


----------



## Rob (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: Bumblebee, with different libs!*

ok here's a quick rendition of the first 40 seconds of the bumblebee (I consider 2 hours quick  ) but I can do more if I find the time and it is interesting for someone... Cinematic strings plus Gtown cymbals, KH flute and bassoons, Wallander clarinets.

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/bumblecs.mp3

different instrumentatio/mix:

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/bumblemix2.mp3


----------



## Pzy-Clone (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: Bumblebee, with different libs!*



Rob @ Tue Jan 19 said:


> ok here's a quick rendition of the first 40 seconds of the bumblebee (I consider 2 hours quick  ) but I can do more if I find the time and it is interesting for someone... Cinematic strings plus Gtown cymbals, KH flute and bassoons, Wallander clarinets.
> 
> http://www.robertosoggetti.com/bumblecs.mp3



very interesting.
CS seems to pull that off much better than i would have expected.
The KH flutes are not quite up for the task imo tho, neither are the Clarinets.

The pizzicatos seem to have a slight plastic-y quality to them, but i think the Violins manage to sound pretty good...did you use the staccato patches, and if so...how much tweaking was neccessary to make it work?
I have been meaning to get this lib some some time, but have some slight reservation about the variation of short articulations included.

Well, good job in any event. o-[][]-o


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 19, 2010)

Very cool, Roberto! 

Hey, CS have a nice tone. But there are some very low frequencies, rumble noices at the trem patch...., have you forgotten to use the low cut eq? 

Thanks man!

I can do it tomorrow. 

SvK,

Guy?


----------



## mf (Jan 19, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> The bumble bee example is useless because it is only fascinating if you feel as the audience that the player(s) are at the edge of physical ability but still running smooth (halfway). The fascination of speed - pretty stupid actually but works at places.
> 
> As soon as you can program the thing it is pointless. You could even program it to run double the speed, so what?
> 
> Play a Mozart divertimento well with samples, then then you are king.


Excellent points. But, as you say, so what? Numblebee rocks!


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 19, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Tue Jan 19 said:


> The bumble bee example is useless because it is only fascinating if you feel as the audience that the player(s) are at the edge of physical ability but still running smooth (halfway). The fascination of speed - pretty stupid actually but works at places.
> 
> As soon as you can program the thing it is pointless. You could even program it to run double the speed, so what?
> 
> Play a Mozart divertimento well with samples, then then you are king.



I do not agree, Hannes.

Sure that it is not the tempo allone. I think it is a good example if you can transport this feeling with samples... .


----------



## Rob (Jan 19, 2010)

*Re: Bumblebee, with different libs!*



Pzy-Clone @ 19th January 2010 said:


> very interesting.
> CS seems to pull that off much better than i would have expected.
> The KH flutes are not quite up for the task imo tho, neither are the Clarinets.
> 
> ...



hi Pzyclone, sorry for the late reply, I've been out... agree about the woodwinds, but in the end it wasn't my intention to present them in their best light, as the attention had to be on strings. The strings tracks were done rather quickly, anyway, so there are errors, volume jumps in the violins, and so on. 
Yes I have used the staccato patches (well a simplified version really) doubled with a customized patch of the sus violins where sips are applied (God bless Robert for this gem) to provide some body. Only tweaking was finding the right sips settings for this speed. Agree about the somewhat limited offer in articulations, which you have to "build" yourself, so to speak... the plastic sound you hear in the pizz might be the snap pizz patch I have used, just because I love that effect  . Thanks for listening, Pzy


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jan 19, 2010)

germancomponist @ Tue Jan 19 said:


> Hannes_F @ Tue Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > The bumble bee example is useless because it is only fascinating if you feel as the audience that the player(s) are at the edge of physical ability but still running smooth (halfway). The fascination of speed - pretty stupid actually but works at places.
> ...



Gunther, I admire your tenacity in this, but it's like the song says: "It don't mean a thing (if it ain't got that swing)"


----------



## mf (Jan 19, 2010)

Swing it Duke! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDQpZT3GhDg


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 19, 2010)

[quote:354cf039ef="Guy Bacos @ Tue Jan 19, 2010 21:44"][quote:354cf039ef="germancomponist @ Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:13 pm"][quote:354cf039ef="Hannes_F @ Tue Jan 19, 2010 04:08"]The bumblò‚_   ÀY=‚_   ÀY>‚_   ÀY?‚_   À[email protected]‚_   ÀYA‚_   ÀYB‚_   ÀYC‚_   ÀYD‚_   ÀYE‚_   ÀYF‚_   ÀYG‚_   ÀYH‚_   ÀYI‚_   ÀYJ‚_   ÀYK‚_   ÀYL‚_   ÀYM‚_   ÀYN‚_   ÀYO‚_   ÀYP‚_   ÀYQ‚_   ÀYR‚_   ÀYS‚_   ÀYT‚_   ÀYU‚_   ÀYV‚_   ÀYW‚_   ÀYX‚_   ÀYY‚_   ÀYZ‚_   ÀY[‚_   ÀY\‚_   ÀY]‚_   ÀY^‚_   ÀY_‚_   ÀY`‚_   ÀYa‚_   ÀYb‚_   ÀYc‚_   ÀYd‚_   ÀYe‚_   ÀYf‚_   ÀYg‚_   ÀYh‚_   ÀYi‚_   ÀYj‚_   ÀYk‚_   ÀYl‚_   ÀYm‚_   ÀYn‚_   ÀYo‚_   ÀYp‚_   ÀYq‚_   ÀYr‚_   ÀYs‚_   ÀYt‚_   ÀYu‚`   ÀYˆ‚`   ÀY‰‚`   ÀYŠ‚`   ÀY‹‚`   ÀYŒ‚`   ÀY‚`   ÀYŽ‚`   ÀY‚`   ÀY‚`   ÀY‘‚`   ÀY’‚`   ÀY“‚`   ÀY”‚`   ÀY•‚`   ÀY–‚`   ÀY—‚`   ÀY˜‚`   ÀY™‚`   ÀYš‚`   ÀY›‚`   ÀYœ‚`   ÀY‚`   ÀYž‚`   ÀYŸ‚`   ÀY ‚`   ÀY¡‚`   ÀY¢‚`   ÀY£‚`   ÀY¤‚`   ÀY¥‚`   ÀY¦‚`   ÀY§‚`   ÀY¨‚`   ÀY©‚`   ÀYª‚`   ÀY«‚`   ÀY¬‚`   ÀY­‚`   ÀY®‚`   ÀY¯‚`   ÀY°‚`   ÀY±‚`   ÀY²‚`   ÀY³‚`   ÀY´‚`   ÀYµ‚`   ÀY¶‚


----------



## Rob (Jan 19, 2010)

hey Gunther, I've given the flute part to violins, so there's more continuity in the phrasing, if you want to listen:

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/bumblemix2.mp3


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 19, 2010)

Thanks Roberto. A cool mixing (round and round) you did! Fine, very fine!

I wonder if it is such a great crime, if I post the original only for us here without any criminal background?


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 19, 2010)

Posting that here I would consider under the Fair Use act (education)


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jan 19, 2010)

mf @ Tue Jan 19 said:


> Swing it Duke! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDQpZT3GhDg



Oh yeah!

Of course nobody sings it like Ella.


----------



## juliansader (Jan 19, 2010)

This comparison is a great idea! I also think Flight of the Bumblebee is an excellent choice since it will showcase the libraries' abilities to do fast runs.

In any case, I thought it might be interesting to have two live performances of the piece as further comparisons. I found the following two on Youtube:
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9JKCoxn2wc
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QV1RGML ... re=related

It is particularly interesting to note that the two orchestras use different techniques for the fast runs: the one orchestra appears to play the runs as slurred notes, whereas the other orchestra plays fast up and down bows (does this technique have a special name?).


(P.S. I am very pleasantly surprised by how well Cinematic Strings handles the fast runs!)


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 19, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Wed Jan 20 said:


> Posting that here I would consider under the Fair Use act (education)



Today I will ask Sony music... .


----------



## Pzy-Clone (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Bumblebee, with different libs!*



Rob @ Tue Jan 19 said:


> Yes I have used the staccato patches (well a simplified version really) doubled with a customized patch of the sus violins where sips are applied (God bless Robert for this gem) to provide some body. Only tweaking was finding the right sips settings for this speed. Agree about the somewhat limited offer in articulations, which you have to "build" yourself, so to speak...



Hey Rob, and thanx for your response.
I see, yes...i could never get Sips to perform at that level without stuck notes and weird behaviour tho, altho it has been a few Kontakt updates since ...should give it another spin i guess. 

But CS does also provide recorded intervals, no ?

thanx again.


----------



## Rob (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Bumblebee, with different libs!*



Pzy-Clone @ 20th January 2010 said:


> ...
> 
> But CS does also provide recorded intervals, no ?
> 
> thanx again.



Yes it does, but my system is too weak to make use of that feature :oops: 
I have to break things down to simple patches for me to work...


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 20, 2010)

BTW I phoned with Sony music this morning and asked them to post the recording with the Philadelphia Orchestra. They asked me to tell them everything in writing, by mail. 

I did, but no answer..... . Lalala, lali.... .


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jan 20, 2010)

germancomponist @ Wed Jan 20 said:


> No LASS and VSL version posted.... . I hope someone will do it!
> 
> I think Guy will not, so maybe Jay?




I don't have time to do BumbleBee, right now, however I could donate :D this piece I did a few months ago, "Jubilation" which involves similar fast runs, using VSL. 

http://www.guybacos.com/audio/Jubilation%20Z.mp3


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 20, 2010)

Guy, give you a kick...! :-D 

Or is your girlfriend waiting for you? Then for sure it is ok not to bumblebeeeeeeeeeee.

BTW Guy, have you listend to the version from the Ph-Orchestra. Isn`t it cool?


----------



## Rob (Jan 22, 2010)

Gunther, what a disappointment! As I suspected, I'm alone once again... I'm the only one to have provided an example, where is yours?


----------



## Imzadi (Jan 22, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Wed Jan 20 said:


> germancomponist @ Wed Jan 20 said:
> 
> 
> > No LASS and VSL version posted.... . I hope someone will do it!
> ...



Nice! I didn't know VSL could play such a good runs.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Jan 22, 2010)

Gunther, If you're going to do Bumble Bee, you should maybe create a bigger BUZZZZZZZZZZZZ!


----------



## theheresy (Jan 23, 2010)

it's funny how much people under estimate VSL strings. I remember a lot of people putting them in 3rd place behind EWQL SO and Sonivox but in reality it blows both those libraries away. Lass and HS are the next generation and they are a bit above VSL but the sound is still comparable and VSL strings are king of the last generation.

If you want to hear bumblebee with vsl strings just paste it from the other thread where I posted bumblebee exerpt with VSL and one with Symphobia


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 23, 2010)

Oops, whats the name of the thread where you have posted it?

Edit: I have listend to your versions..... . You mean them on the EW thread. I thought you there was joking.... . o=< 

Do you think that it would sound the same as yours when someone who knows to use libraries best would do arrange this piece with VSL? /\~O

I am now editing the SE2 lib a little bit to come more near to the real thing. Stay tuned, it is worth a listen!


----------



## synthetic (Jan 23, 2010)

Does someone have a MIDI file?


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 23, 2010)

Oops,

the Peter Siedlaczek`s String Essentials2 library is programmed very good and the scripts are also very fine. 

Very hard for me to edit, but it works in the way I want it, because the samples there are recorded very good.

I am now in the middle of only the violines...., and I have promised to my wife to spend this Sunday only with her and my two children. 

What a dilemma. 0oD


----------



## juliansader (Feb 4, 2010)

If anyone wants to hear Kirk Hunter's Concert Strings II doing fast runs, listen to the demo of Vivaldi's Summer at http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/audiodemos.html - pretty impressive!


----------



## germancomponist (Feb 4, 2010)

Do a bumble bee version with it!

I am so sorry but my dayly work needs 100%.

Next week, I hope, I can post mine.


----------



## jsaras (Mar 1, 2010)

Here's a refreshing original arrangement of Bumble-bee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxTOwXEy ... 70&index=3


----------



## KingIdiot (Mar 1, 2010)

no library as is will be able to do bumblebee.

there's to much inconsistency in bow noise between samples. even with legato transitions.

The only wa this is gonna happen is if sample modeling does a string section instrument, or there's some serious resynthesis tricks that come around.

you can try drowning it in reverb to hide that, but... well.. its drowning the piece in reverb. Whats the use of writing a fast line? might as well use accending/decending gliss samples..


----------



## germancomponist (Mar 1, 2010)

KingIdiot @ Mon Mar 01 said:


> no library as is will be able to do bumblebee.
> 
> there's to much inconsistency in bow noise between samples. even with legato transitions.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I did a lot of experiments and the best results I got with timestretched stackato- and spiccato samples, some tricky repetition programmings and much better results with the Gary Garritan`s Stradivari Violin and Gofriller Cello. I hope Samplemodeling are working on new string instruments. :wink: 

I am 70& ready with my version but always have to work so much in these days, so please excuse my delay. And: I hate it to do such mockups; :mrgreen:


----------



## KingIdiot (Mar 1, 2010)

don't kill yourself, you're basically doing something that will never sound "good enough".

There will only be nitpicking about the negatives, rather than discussions about the cool things you're doing like time stretching short samples 

I'd rather you start a discussion on the benefits of doing the time stretching and giving examples of what kind of results you're getting with different settings and usage.

Something fucking productive in the forum again, instead of another "hey look how much samples are getting close to the real thing!"... with the inevitable response of

"THAT'S NOT CLOSE AT ALL NOOB!!!"

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of having a goal in terms of recreation and giving an opportunity for comparison to the real thing... but picking something so unachievable...

you might as well try to get Voices of Passion to sing an Evanescence song...


----------



## Guy Bacos (Mar 1, 2010)

Gunther, have you seen Tina Guo's rendition of Bumble Bee?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIEdzaAcW-c


----------



## Dynamitec (Mar 1, 2010)

You'll find a version with pretty cool hair here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kng1oTF9img


----------



## jsaras (Mar 1, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Mar 01 said:


> have you seen Tina Guo's rendition of Bumble Bee?



Well...there's no way anything could compete with Tina Guo coming out of the hive. Sheesh, I've been bitten!


----------



## germancomponist (Mar 2, 2010)

Cool videos. 

@ King, your idea maybe the best. I thought of it too.


----------



## Waywyn (Mar 2, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Mar 01 said:


> Gunther, have you seen Tina Guo's rendition of Bumble Bee?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIEdzaAcW-c



Now, THAT kicks ass!!! =o


----------



## germancomponist (Apr 9, 2010)

as always, I have a lot of work here and so not so much time for the forums. But, I do not like it, to be called as an "only promiser". (My friend Roberto wrote in onother thread :mrgreen: ) 

So, here is a first result of what I am doing. I think you can guess how my result will sound like, when you listen to this examples. There are always 2 versions: The first is sounding more clean, the second one is more humanized, but both are far away from my end result. 

Link: http://www.box.net/shared/08qsz4nob7 

Please listen and tell me what do you think. 

Gunther

PS I can do this with any string library in Kontakt, and I did this in Kontakt 3.5, so without the new morphing tool in Kontakt 4. o/~


----------



## synergy543 (Apr 9, 2010)

LEVEL WARNING - There is no actual Air Raid...this is just a test on your local vi broadcasting network. Damn, that's a lot of comb filtering.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...


----------



## Guy Bacos (Apr 9, 2010)

synergy543 @ Fri Apr 09 said:


> LEVEL WARNING - There is no actual Air Raid...this is just a test on your local vi broadcasting network. Damn, that's a lot of comb filtering.
> 
> And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...



lol


----------



## Hannes_F (Apr 9, 2010)

I can imitate an american police patrol siren on the cello, does that count, too? :roll:


----------



## synergy543 (Apr 9, 2010)

With the doppler effect? On the cello, isn't it easier to do European sirens with the doppler?

Funny no one's stooped low enough to use one in an orchestral composition yet....'cept maybe in Adam's City Noir? FX were a regular back in the days of Respighi, Groffe, and Copland.


----------



## Waywyn (Apr 10, 2010)

Ouch


----------



## germancomponist (Apr 10, 2010)

As I can see, noone got it. :mrgreen: 

So here comes another example. Here you can listen at first to a snippet from a real orchestra, then to a snippet from the HS Slur Run Demo, and then mine. o/~ 

Please note: I did this editings with a very old library where only mf samples are used. But I think you will now get the idea how it will sound when I do this with, for examlpe, with LASS or PS-SE2 or onother lib. 


Link: http://www.box.net/shared/ceg3lkvzah

o-[][]-o


----------



## JBacal (Apr 10, 2010)

Hi Gunther. This is a much better demo and shows that your technique has lots of promise.

Best,
Jay


----------



## Guy Bacos (Apr 10, 2010)

It's a good thing you didn't market right away the first version Gunther. Glad to see the 2nd is going better.


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 10, 2010)

I think what's missing is the attacks in that though. HS actually seems to do that fairly well.


----------



## Waywyn (Apr 11, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sun Apr 11 said:


> I think what's missing is the attacks in that though. HS actually seems to do that fairly well.



+1 on that. If you also listen to the real runs example, you always hear a certain attack level going on.


----------



## germancomponist (Apr 11, 2010)

You not always hear a certain attack level going on. Listen to the youtube video link what is posted on the first page on this thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9JKCoxn2wc

But, mostly you can hear more attck, that`s right. o/~ 

*So here we go to example No.3:* http://www.box.net/shared/7b2fioju2e

Here you can listen to 3 new experiments, from slurrrrrred to attack notes. I also have exchanged the library and use now a 12 / 12 one with 5 round rubins. (But only one layer at the moment, because there is so much to edit..)

Please listen and tell me how do you like this?


Thanks

Gunther


----------

