# Need help in mixing this orchestral track (big percussion)



## Tag (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi there,

I already asked some musician and they helped me a lot. Now I am at a point, where I'm asking myself, if this mixing is good enough. I wanted to ask this question in this forum, because here are some pro-musician. Maybe there's somebody out there, who could give me a little hint on how I could make this track a bit more "spicy":

http://www.tagirijus.de/sfx/non/big_trouble_25.mp3 ((dead link))

(Edit in 2021; this track was finished in april 2010 already and became this: https://werke.tagirijus.de/audio/2010/manuel_senfft_-_rescue_action.mp3 (Rescue Action (new link)) ... basically the same, but new link. I just recognized in my website stats that people still try to access the original link, haha ... so I felt like updating the link  )

I think it's ok, but I also think that something is missing ...

I compared this track with professional music (ok ... I'm far away of beeing a professional, hehe) and I cannot make my track as good and brilliant as the professional music. I tried many things in my mixing... EQ, compressor, a little distortion on deep hits, etc.

Moreover everybody tells me to cut below 40 Hz, what I did (ok, I've got no good EQ I think), but if I analyze professional music, my spectrum analyzer shows that this music often goes below 30 Hz. Nevertheless the music still sounds transparent and spicy.


What do you guys say? Thanks for listening and for coming responses. 


Manu


Edit:
For more information; I used in this track:
- Symphobia
- Wivi Brass 1
- True Strike
- Stormdrum(1)'s Thunder Ensemble
- some selfmade electronic percussion with Absynth


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## chimuelo (Mar 7, 2010)

Hey Junior.............
You come around here acting as if you need help and you're all insecure, etc.
Baloney...............you're just fishing for compliments.

This stuff sounds damn good, especially for an mp3.
So you think you suck ???
Good............when think you are fine and don't listen to people, that's when it's time for a career change.
I like the way you added your own unique percussion the other stuff sounds like everybosy else, but it is good.

NS is where everybody's an expert....try there too.


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## germancomponist (Mar 7, 2010)

Tag @ Sun Mar 07 said:


> ....
> 
> Moreover everybody tells me to cut below 40 Hz, what I did (ok, I've got no good EQ I think), but if I analyze professional music, my spectrum analyzer shows that this music often goes below 30 Hz. Nevertheless the music still sounds transparent and spicy.
> ...



Who told you to cut all below 40 Hz...?

I like what I hear. 

My suggestion is: Some instruments need frequencies lower than 40 Hz, this big booms for example. There I would cut them below 20 Hz and reduce the volume of only this 25 Hz sound... . 
Have you experimented with, for example, "Max Bass" from WAVES? You know, you can split a sound into 2; one for the lowest frequency and the other for the higher... .

Again, I like what I hear.

Best,

Gunther


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 7, 2010)

Gunther, do you have speakers that go as low as 20-40 Hz? I bet you don't 

Big booms are in the 50-80Hz range.

To avoid inaudible lows and thus unwanted energy I suggest to use a very strong cut-off below 35 Hz.

My 2 cents


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## germancomponist (Mar 7, 2010)

Havn`t you listend to my special 22 Hz experiment, Emanuel? 

Yeah, you maybe can`t hear it, but you can feel it! o-[][]-o


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Mar 7, 2010)

> Who told you to cut all below 40 Hz...?



This is done in pop quite a bit, so the speakers aren't overwhelmed by lower frequencies from the kick drum and bass.

EDIT: It sounds good, but I'd change two things that are kind of sticking out for me.

1. The entire track seems to be excited a bit too much. Lots of high end is reducing the overall warmth you could get.

2. The track seems a bit compressed to me, I'm noticing it a bit much for my taste.


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## chimuelo (Mar 7, 2010)

Actually Sidechaining is what is used more than cutting with most virtual engineered projects I have been involved in.
Its the combined tracks all sharing similar frequencies that causes problems in all ranges.
Some folks like using Compressors and EQ/Filtering, most people I know using vitual technology choose to keep the dynamics with out using the predictable curve draws and compression.
Sidechaining will compress the chosen frequencies slightly, leaving the source material as is while tightening the bottom end.
Quantizing will keep from having speaker flap where the speaker is stressed and before it can collapse getting hit with similar frequencies. But that is only useful on 3 tracks that have the same frequency issues.
On hardware I remember always cutting instead of boosting, especially the lows, but virtual recordings do not share the same physical acoustics as virtual so some new tricks work well.
I can sidechain a vocal over the cymbals with low ratios.
Where an Analog synth is used I always choose the Kick to be the source when dance orientated material is used. For Orchestral the Contrabass should be sidechained over the Tymps, etc.
In other words, pick the most obviously loud instrument, and use the second loudest as the sidechain source.
Strings always seem to find their way to the top of a mix, so if they needed a sidechain, which some libraries are really harsh, you pick the Cello as source to the Violins.
Try it, you might like it. I believe the VST version of this comes as a downloadable demo. Its a great DSP plug too.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... ZMmsxTDp5g


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## Tag (Mar 8, 2010)

First I want to thank every reply and I am sorry for answering late (unfortunately I got no response-mail, what a pitty ...)




chimuelo @ Sun Mar 07 said:


> Hey Junior.............
> You come around here acting as if you need help and you're all insecure, etc.
> Baloney...............you're just fishing for compliments.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this compliment; it's very motivating and made me laugh a bit, hehe! At least I'm still a very self-critical person. 




germancomponist @ Sun Mar 07 said:


> Who told you to cut all below 40 Hz...?


Some pro-musicians told me that; moreover I found this hint in the internet (searched for mixing tricks etc).



germancomponist @ Sun Mar 07 said:


> I like what I hear.
> 
> My suggestion is: Some instruments need frequencies lower than 40 Hz, this big booms for example. There I would cut them below 20 Hz and reduce the volume of only this 25 Hz sound... .
> Have you experimented with, for example, "Max Bass" from WAVES? You know, you can split a sound into 2; one for the lowest frequency and the other for the higher... .
> ...


Thanks for this compliment, too. It's still motivating.  I will try this thing with the 20 Hz and 25 Hz. Unfortunately I've got no money (and computerpower I think) for a product from Waves. But maybe sometime in the future. 




Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Mar 08 said:


> EDIT: It sounds good, but I'd change two things that are kind of sticking out for me.
> 
> 1. The entire track seems to be excited a bit too much. Lots of high end is reducing the overall warmth you could get.
> 
> 2. The track seems a bit compressed to me, I'm noticing it a bit much for my taste.


Yeah, I recognized this, too. I will see what I can reduce in compression and reducing high ends. Thanks for mentioning it.




chimuelo @ Mon Mar 08 said:


> Actually Sidechaining is what is used more than cutting with most virtual engineered projects I have been involved in. (...)


Very interesting idea. I thought this would only be used in electronic music. I will try this of corse. Thanks for the tip! 

Thanks again for all replies. I will post the new track, when I got it better.


Manu


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## chimuelo (Mar 8, 2010)

Actually its just another tool in the process.
No matter what I record these days I use the most powerful instruments as my SC sources. Its the best way to set up an 8 Band Dynamic EQ too.
Since our music is full of dynamics, to have static effects seems to be a counterproductive approach, especially with Orchestral music.
This is why I still use hardware reverbs because motion is what makes music exciting.
Also I don't see the need for these 16-22GB ECC RAM Footprints if you're not going to record 12-16 stereo tracks simulataneously.
Group recording needs extra tools, but having these powerful machines to track a stereo track, then another and another, and then reduce the fidelity with a correctional approach of excessive plugs is what I try and avoid.
That's why 8 track sections or 16 track sections SChained and controlled by a living breathing Dynamic EQ is a semi mastered approach.
Below is an 8 mono/ 4 stereo, Dual Mono/Stereo In SChaining Dynamic EQ.
I find tracking 8 mono is what I get the best results from.
Below I am using an External Analog Synth by Studio Electronics. It is the most powerful signal I have as a SideChain source.
For a section of Kicks, Bass Guitar, Tympanis and Toms this is a breeze.
My wifes vocals are very powerful and dynamic , so using the XITE-1 Mic Pres and Heil PR40, I make her sing over the cymbals, Strings, SYnths, and Brass.
Saves me hours of time and basically I end up mixing 48 Stereo channels @ 192k, but only end up mixing 6 sections of 8 tracks.
Just a thought.
These are all excellent German DSP Coders and Developers who don't advertise or dwell in the forums very much, so it's my secret weapons.
Also most refreshing is not having some lame picture of a hardware unit as if my meger 200 dollar investment could replace these 10,000 dollar pieces of kit.... =o 
Just a nice forward looking original GUI is just fine for me. Besides, I don't like paying an additional 3-400 dollars for a picture on my screen.


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## Tag (Mar 8, 2010)

Hehe, ok I think this is way beyond my actual skill and possibilities at the moment. But thanks for explaining.


Besides I tried to cut less bass and reduce compression and high ends a bit:

http://www.tagirijus.de/sfx/non/big_trouble_26.mp3

But I do not want to post every evolution-process in here (would be anoying, I think). Maybe this is the final track and I am going to make another project. Feedback on the last track would be fine, nevertheless. And thanks again for feedback and help!


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## AR (Mar 8, 2010)

Compression is good, but not really for film music.

Some might like it, others do not even touch a compressor (like Hans Zimmer).

I quote: "I barely even touch a compressor. Mostly I do things by equing and cutting off freq. that disturb the mix." (HZ)

There are plenty of plugins that don't need a compressor....like all the stuff from Spectrasonics (although they have it onboard). But it sounds already like InYourFace.

And I would never use compressors on stuff like EastWest and Symphobia. The whole beauty and depth gets lost.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my reaction of stuff I composed and it's always annoying sitting at the premiere and admitting "gosh...my mix's too much compressed."

Instead I found a better solution for myself: 
-Better Orchestrations (less unisono), 
-always killing freq., even if the solo-channel sounds crappy - the mix gets clearer 
-if I need loud music I have to write loud music (using Drums of War, Tonehammer, etc.), 
-don't put soooo much in it (even if I think "damn, that patch is great")
-work with dynamics (if there's a ff passage, some instruments might need only mf)

Greets
AR


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## Tag (Mar 9, 2010)

Thanks for this post, too. First I just used maximizer, but after your post I tried to use only a maximizer (a little bit) onthe master. Sorry guys, if I have to post a new version, but I would be pleased to hear more comments on the newest version:

http://www.tagirijus.de/sfx/non/big_trouble_29.mp3

It makes me crazy! For my ears it doesn't sound that good. :(


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Mar 9, 2010)

"Compression is good, but not really for film music. 

Some might like it, others do not even touch a compressor (like Hans Zimmer). 

I quote: "I barely even touch a compressor. Mostly I do things by equing and cutting off freq. that disturb the mix." (HZ) "

He might've been referring to compression on the main mix. Everyone uses compression on separate channels if needed. I don't use compression on the main mix, but I use a limiter instead.


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## jsaras (Mar 9, 2010)

Sounds terrific to me. It's on the dry side, but that is only a matter of taste.


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## AR (Mar 10, 2010)

No, he's not using comp at all.

I read this in a book about MIDI-Orchestration, where he said smth like "he hates 'em"


But Nathan, tell me about your approach.


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