# Orchestral Composition



## Ben E (Jul 8, 2017)

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to this forum (been lurking for a few months.) Last week in the Sample Talk forum I heard about Fluid Shorts -- a staccato/repetition string library. I got it. Sounds good to my ears. I put this piece together using the violins, violas and cellos from the library, augmented by the Spitfire 150 BPM trems patch (which can be used for repetitions at 150 BPM.) I think with some more time and tweaking I could get more realism out of the Fluid Shorts but this is what I got so far. 

http://beneshbach.com/resources/music/music/150 BPM_3.mp3


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## Paul T McGraw (Jul 9, 2017)

It sounds good. I'm glad you ended when you did, as it was starting to grow monotonous, but a very commendable effort and sound.


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## handz (Jul 9, 2017)

I really like it, not got bored at all. It has some Prokofiev moments which I liked a lot. I have to check out this lib for sure


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## Dave Connor (Jul 9, 2017)

Terrific writing and fantastic quality of sound. What libraries are we hearing throughout the orchestra?


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## Ben E (Jul 10, 2017)

Hey! Thanks to you all for listening. Most everything you hear is Spitfire. Sable, Brass, Percussion, Woods and Harp. I used Berlin Woodwinds where it mattered (I can't get the Spitfire woodwind legatos to sound right most of the time, but I'm getting better.) And there are a couple of flurries from Sonokinetic's Espressivo. And, of course the Fluid Shorts thing I mentioned in the post above. No reverbs except for on the Berlin woodwinds to try and match the Air Studio sound.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 10, 2017)

Ben E said:


> Hey! Thanks to you all for listening. Most everything you hear is Spitfire. Sable, Brass, Percussion, Woods and Harp. I used Berlin Woodwinds where it mattered (I can't get the Spitfire woodwind legatos to sound right most of the time, but I'm getting better.) And there are a couple of flurries from Sonokinetic's Espressivo. And, of course the Fluid Shorts thing I mentioned in the post above. No reverbs except for on the Berlin woodwinds to try and match the Air Studio sound.



Cool Piece Ben, listened to it already the other day. I really enjoyed it!´.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 10, 2017)

Ben E said:


> Hey! Thanks to you all for listening. Most everything you hear is Spitfire. Sable, Brass, Percussion, Woods and Harp. I used Berlin Woodwinds where it mattered (I can't get the Spitfire woodwind legatos to sound right most of the time, but I'm getting better.) And there are a couple of flurries from Sonokinetic's Espressivo. And, of course the Fluid Shorts thing I mentioned in the post above. No reverbs except for on the Berlin woodwinds to try and match the Air Studio sound.


Are you using the tree mikes exclusively or do you have additional mikes in there as well? The reverb seems just right to me.


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## Ben E (Jul 10, 2017)

Dave Connor said:


> Are you using the tree mikes exclusively or do you have additional mikes in there as well? The reverb seems just right to me.



I had to check. I used the tree and ambient mics: ambient all the way up, tree about 2/3 up. Except for strings which additionally uses the close, about 1/3 up. On the 150 BPM trems (Sable) there are no trees, just close and ambient equally.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 10, 2017)

Thank you very much. I figured something like that because of the wetness and clarity at the same time. Thanks for the specifics which I will try on my spitfire libraries since I've never gotten them sounding as well as yours. I know what you mean about the legato winds being difficult to manage. I'm getting better at it too.


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## TintoL (Jul 10, 2017)

Ben E said:


> I had to check. I used the tree and ambient mics: ambient all the way up, tree about 2/3 up. Except for strings which additionally uses the close, about 1/3 up. On the 150 BPM trems (Sable) there are no trees, just close and ambient equally.



Thanks for answering this info ben e.

I liked a lot the piece, very orchestral and really nice colors. Very inspiring.

I wanted to ask you this and i am glad that dave connor did. The reason i wanted to ask is because the mix, even though is clear, the feel is that the whole orchestra starts middle stage towards the back. I feel that the ambient mic is actually inmersing the sound too much in reverb. The strings are specially in the bg loosing presence.

I am wondering how it would sound with just the tree mic and a tad of close.

Awesome composition.


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## Ben E (Jul 11, 2017)

TintoL said:


> I am wondering how it would sound with just the tree mic and a tad of close.



Okay, I tried this. And I like it! All I did was turn off all the ambient mics, trees all the way up and added a little close. I think I'd have to massage the mix a little with this new mic setup, but what I'm posting here is just with the mics changed. What do you think?

http://beneshbach.com/resources/music/music/150 BPM Trees and Close.mp3

Occasionally I deliberately go for a wet, "mics too far away" sound because I'm fond of this Les Baxter recording.

Topage (From "Master of the World") - YouTube


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## TintoL (Jul 11, 2017)

Wao man. Holy crap, the difference is huge. I like it a lot better. It feels in a room. With such instrument definition.

Thank you so much for doing this. I am going to start adding this close mics to my template.

I also wanted to ask you two questions:
How did you change the mics in all instances of the spitfire instrumemts in kontakt? Everytime i want to turn on some mics i have go to each instrument in kontakt. How do you do it?

Also, did you played all woodwind runs featuring in the piece (towards the end, around 1.40. i am not sure if they are fast repetitions notes after note or simple runs)?

Thanks so much again for both the mic change version and your answers.

It sounds great...

All the best.


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## Ben E (Jul 11, 2017)

TintoL said:


> How did you change the mics in all instances of the spitfire instrumemts in kontakt? Everytime i want to turn on some mics i have go to each instrument in kontakt. How do you do it?
> 
> Also, did you played all woodwind runs featuring in the piece (towards the end, around 1.40. i am not sure if they are fast repetitions notes after note or simple runs)?



I opened every instance of Kontakt (one instrument per instance) and adjusted the mics.
Those wild flute noises you're hearing are the "flurries" I mention in the post above. They're from Sonokinetic's Espressivo.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jul 11, 2017)

In case you don't know. The mics in spitfire (I'm using the albions and I think it might be the same with all of there libraries) are controlled by default from cc22 upwards. So if you have an assigned controller you can change all the mics at once and check balances very fast.


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## Ben E (Jul 11, 2017)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> In case you don't know. The mics in spitfire (I'm using the albions and I think it might be the same with all of there libraries) are controlled by default from cc22 upwards. So if you have an assigned controller you can change all the mics at once and check balances very fast.



Wow! Thanks!


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## TintoL (Jul 11, 2017)

Yeah, thanks a lot. I was so eaguer to know how to do it that i chated with spitfire. They told me you can not control all of the mics from kontakt except from the midi controls. That was a good thing to know.

The problem is that unless you have a motorized fader, the values will change everytime you switch tracks because of the not motorized fader.

But then i thought of lemur. I own it and i think i can set up a fader for each mic, and thouse fader give feed back and adjust to each channel.

The spitfire guys told me that i could also set up a single mic set up i liked and then copy midi cc values on a cc lane. But i rather have the flexibility of a fader.

Sorry that i missed the sonokinetics expressivo info.i am going to check it out.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 11, 2017)

TintoL said:


> Thanks for answering this info ben e.
> 
> I liked a lot the piece, very orchestral and really nice colors. Very inspiring.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I must confess that I listened only on my computer speakers and not studio monitors. I was struck by the wetness which I liked (and lack in my mixes.) The fact is that I use Tree only on Spitfire Sable and Winds (my Hollywood Strings are what dry things up actually.) A little close miking on some low winds to get more bite. So basically Ben's gone to tree only with a little close which is what I do but not on Strings.


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## TintoL (Jul 12, 2017)

Dave Connor said:


> Interesting. I must confess that I listened only on my computer speakers and not studio monitors. I was struck by the wetness which I liked (and lack in my mixes.) The fact is that I use Tree only on Spitfire Sable and Winds (my Hollywood Strings are what dry things up actually.) A little close miking on some low winds to get more bite. So basically Ben's gone to tree only with a little close which is what I do but not on Strings.


Nice, it's good to compared other peoples setup and mix.

I started to search in the forum and all over about Andy Blaney's mixes. I eventually found out that on intimate pieces for chamber strings he used outriggers and close. And for big ensambles he used outriggers and ambient. Crap he is just so good.

My setup right now is only tree because I have all spitfire symphony with all articulations loaded in my slave. And that alone takes a lot of ram. But, I am going to start testing 2 mics with the outriggers as the main ones. I will probably end up having to unload instruments in vep to be able to get 2 mics ready all the time.

I find that the only way to discern the status of your mix is by adding a piece you want to emulate in the daw and compare constantly between yours and the piece to see where you are going, if not, I know I will be doing everything wrong. Is easier to listen to a piece for the first time like I did here with Ben and have an inmediate feel than playing your piece every second. Eventually you don't know where you are. At least that's how it is for me.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 12, 2017)

TintoL said:


> My setup right now is only tree because I have all spitfire symphony with all articulations loaded in my slave. And that alone takes a lot of ram. But, I am going to start testing 2 mics with the outriggers as the main ones. I will probably end up having to unload instruments in vep to be able to get 2 mics ready all the time.


So outriggers and close mics are the 2 mics you will use?

Are you purging samples to lower your ram footprint? That has been a lifesaver for me. Otherwise crackles galore. Sounds like you basically want to lower ram use but are not having performance issues (clicks and pops.)


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## TintoL (Jul 12, 2017)

Dave Connor said:


> So outriggers and close mics are the 2 mics you will use?
> 
> Are you purging samples to lower your ram footprint? That has been a lifesaver for me. Otherwise crackles galore. Sounds like you basically want to lower ram use but are not having performance issues (clicks and pops.)


No, I do not have any performance issues what so ever. AS LONG AS I STAY IN WIN 7 IN MY MAIN DAW. As soon as I try streaming from cubase in win 10, all is a disaster.

I have not been purging to tell you the truth. My idea has been to simply load all the orchestra in the slave and not to even go to vep except for mixing. I do all mixing in vep. I only use cubase for composing in piano roll and programming. Cubase is just such an unstable software compared to vep that I don't want to put anything there. 

I only want to lower the ram. I think that instead of purging I rather unload instruments I am sure I am not going to use for that piece from the start. In the worst of the cases, I would have to split my spitfire template into my daw and the slave to have all mics loaded. But I will try to do whatever I can to avoid doing that. 

In terms of using outriggers. Yes, I think that for what I have been exploring it seems that the outriggers are the best sound for me. The reason I like so much the spitfire sound is because of andy's mixing results in his pieces. So, if he does it like that, I will follow the master.

The only problem is that I updated my template to the latest spitfire engine for each instrument and currently only sable and brass have the extended mics. I have the old version with all mics, but the file structure is different. So I will have to wait until they release the extended mics for mural and woodwinds.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 12, 2017)

Are you able to automate your mixes in VE Pro?? How are you doing so if that's the case? I do everything I can in midi and then create stems and mix the audio (in Digital Performer.)


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## TintoL (Jul 12, 2017)

Dave Connor said:


> Are you able to automate your mixes in VE Pro?? How are you doing so if that's the case? I do everything I can in midi and then create stems and mix the audio (in Digital Performer.)


Nop, I can not automate the mixing. And I don't really want to. I leave the mix balancing the orchestra as a starting standard point. Which, in spitfire library you barely have to do anything. 

I simply work with cc7 volume. after that. And automate cc7 instead. But only after I am done with all.


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## E.Heart (Jul 13, 2017)

Ben E said:


> Hey! Thanks to you all for listening. Most everything you hear is Spitfire. Sable, Brass, Percussion, Woods and Harp. I used Berlin Woodwinds where it mattered (I can't get the Spitfire woodwind legatos to sound right most of the time, but I'm getting better.) And there are a couple of flurries from Sonokinetic's Espressivo. And, of course the Fluid Shorts thing I mentioned in the post above. No reverbs except for on the Berlin woodwinds to try and match the Air Studio sound.




Hi Ben,

Nice piece, very dynamic and alive. Thanks for the info on the tools you used...


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