# Our stuff torrent shared illegally :-(



## soundethers (Nov 15, 2015)

So, we just started a very small lab, developing instruments for kontakt 5, began selling a bit, investing money and (a lot of) time, and after only two months... we see out there our stuff as free downloadable torrent...

I see, I'm not the first, will not be the last developer facing this, but just wanted to ask you, vi controls people, surely more experienced than me, what does this may mean for such a very small company as we are, and if there is anything we could really do (if it is useful) to stop this... Someone just said we should just forget about it and go on working harder and harder...

Any suggestions/experiences?


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 15, 2015)

I'm so sorry to hear this. Unfortunately the Internet affords people a certain level of perceived protection from consequences for illegal activities. They feel like if the likelihood of being caught is low, then it's ok to engage in that behavior. 

Some feel like those who would steal your work would not have bought it legitimately so you've not really lost anything. I think this is conjecture and I've not seen data to support it. 

I wish you luck in finding a way to proceed.


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## soundethers (Nov 15, 2015)

Hello Tone Deaf,
thanks for replying. I know (as they do) I will never meet and speak to those people...

Some says there is a kind of "promotion" I can get from illegal sharing, but I don't see it as an advantage at all, since those people looking for torrents would never spend a dime to buy any product anyway.
Hope this will not be a critical loss for us, in the future count of incomes and outcomes...


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## tack (Nov 15, 2015)

Tone Deaf said:


> Some feel like those who would steal your work would not have bought it legitimately so you've not really lost anything. I think this is conjecture and I've not seen data to support it.


But is there data to support the converse?

I can only speak for myself, and I'll do so candidly: in my "starving student" days, I pirated software, including music software, and I would not in a million years have purchased those products if pirated versions had not been available.

Fast forward a good amount of time, and now that I have some (any) degree of disposable income, I use it to buy software I want. And if I don't think a piece of software is priced properly (or I find their anti-piracy measures to be personally unpalatable), then I go without it.

Of course anecdote != data, so I wouldn't extrapolate from the above.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 15, 2015)

So was this torrent on free sites or one of those you have to pay to get in. The latter I doubt ever claims what they have.

There's two ways to go with this. You could trust the end user or spend more time locking down your product than developing it. The latter is never advised. Cakewalk and Image Line have the "I trust you" attitude and still exist.
I know it hurts but in development I think thick skin it necessary. 

Pretty sad that some music producers use cracks. See Razor Laptops and one named Karnage.


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## chimuelo (Nov 15, 2015)

The bright side is your stuff was good enough to steal.

I bought many library instruments that arent worth stealing.


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## Carles (Nov 15, 2015)

soundethers said:


> since those people looking for torrents would never spend a dime to buy any product anyway.


As I see it you're not losing sales or perhaps very few. Those won't be your customers even if you do a 99% discount anyway. And I think that's a big error many developers do, thinking that if a given software it's been downloaded N amount of times from illegal places all those downloads could be N amount of licenses sold (not at all) and they adopt measures that do no other than hurting their legitimate customers.

I think it always happened and it always will happen with all sort of software, movies, music, etc. Being mostly cases even not profitable but just for the only pleasure of "breaking the norm".
It's like trying to approve a law to stop selling knifes because some people is using them as a weapon rather than as a kitchen tool.
We cannot have full control over thieves, assassins, abusers, etc. that's why we have laws and prisons, just to try that justice will care about a (surely small) percent on that people. They will always exist in every new generation no matter what we do.
Also consider that some countries are extremely poor and a software license will cost to them the same than they could spend in a whole year feeding a family. These won't be your customers either (even if they would like to).

Your best as developer is to try to produce a good quality product, priced according to its quality and work with good ethics. Then is when you will have sales between legitimate users, the only ones that will be ever willing to pay for your product. I think that the effort and time invested on trying to wipe out piracy (inevitably already a lost war) would be better invested on the products and customer support, so raising the quality of what you offer to your legitimate users.

As Chimuelo said, take it positively instead, that means that your stuff is good enough


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## Silence-is-Golden (Nov 15, 2015)

Also take into account that cracked software easily is full of malware, maybe even ransomware and other unwanted stuff that for those who do use this will quickly get to pay 'the price' for free software.

Hopefully that is also some consolation.


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## Takabuntu (Nov 16, 2015)

It sucks for sure and I can imagine that it undermines your trust in your customers who put it there in the first place. I hope you find a way. A lot of companies (used?) to watermark their libraries, but I'm guessing that be very expensive. Have you asked fellow developers? Perhaps there is a way to collaborate or share a solution. I find the sample library developers on this forum quite friendly to each other.


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## Guffy (Nov 16, 2015)

Takabuntu said:


> It sucks for sure and I can imagine that it undermines your trust in your customers who put it there in the first place. I hope you find a way. A lot of companies (used?) to watermark their libraries, but I'm guessing that be very expensive. Have you asked fellow developers? Perhaps there is a way to collaborate or share a solution. I find the sample library developers on this forum quite friendly to each other.


What if you SAY that the product is watermarked, but in reality, it isnt?
Is that illegal? It would probably scare away some pirates.

I'm in the process of releasing my own libraries, and ever since i started, i've known that it might get torrrented, but i like to think that people that are serious about the business will buy the product - or not.


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## soundethers (Nov 16, 2015)

Ok, guys, thanks for all replies, I read and appreciate a lot to share thoughts with this unbeatable community.
I don't believe watermarks can scare anyone who wants to have fun makiing music with a pirated product. I'll write more clearly in the site the "we trust you" kind of declaration....

I'll take the bright side of it, hoping some (really) poor people can enjoy my stuff that someone out there considered good enough to be pirated.

The dark side is that my products are priced very fairly, because of an ethic choice we made here. I am also very sorry for all customers who paid for the same products.

Cheers, Matteo


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## hirnkatheter (Nov 16, 2015)

I never understood why people steal software. The "I can't afford it now but I will buy it later" is a lame excuse IMHO. 
If you can't afford a certain software there are to options: Find a free or cheaper alternative or save money until you can afford it. If I can't afford a car I am not stealing one. If I can't afford an expensive guitar, I don't steal one. 
People don't see digital stuff as real items. So there taking away only Ones and Zeroes. 
Torrent software and/or music is killing it slowly but for sure.

I really hope that you still can make good business. I am sure there are enough people who are willing to pay what they are going to use.


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## Takabuntu (Nov 16, 2015)

soundethers said:


> I am also very sorry for all customers who paid for the same products.



I understand what you are saying, but I kindly want to suggest a different ending of your post. Your customers should be proud that they bought your product, because it is the (only) right thing to do. Illegal downloaders should be ashamed of themselves and should be the ones that feel sorry. You should feel proud for making your products and pricing your products fairly. 

Wishing you all the best!


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## Tatu (Nov 16, 2015)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Also take into account that cracked software easily is full of malware, maybe even ransomware and other unwanted stuff that for those who do use this will quickly get to pay 'the price' for free software.



If I was a developer, I'd put out illegal copies out there my self, flooded with viruses and other shit of course. That should teach them a lesson. At least for some of them.


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## D.Salzenberg (Nov 16, 2015)

hirnkatheter said:


> I never understood why people steal software. The "I can't afford it now but I will buy it later" is a lame excuse IMHO.
> If you can't afford a certain software there are to options: Find a free or cheaper alternative or save money until you can afford it. If I can't afford a car I am not stealing one. If I can't afford an expensive guitar, I don't steal one.
> People don't see digital stuff as real items. So there taking away only Ones and Zeroes.
> Torrent software and/or music is killing it slowly but for sure.
> ...


The problem that people don't see digital goods as real items is only fed by some companies using legal loopholes to avoid basic consumer rights because they say they are not 'tangible goods'. Companies that promote the stance that you are not actually buying a 'product', in order to forbid a second hand market etc etc because it suits them, want it both ways, and are only further fostering the belief that digital products are not real products. Consumer laws at least in the UK are finally catching up with this.


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## Guffy (Nov 16, 2015)

soundethers said:


> I don't believe watermarks can scare anyone who wants to have fun makiing music with a pirated product. I'll write more clearly in the site the "we trust you" kind of declaration....



In my view, watermarks arent there to scare people from downloading said torrent. It's there to prevent people from RELEASING it to the pirates. As a tactic to scare them from doing it, because the person who bought it will have his name integrated somehow in the product. But all this becomes worthless when they buy the product with a stolen credit card, or something similar.


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## murrthecat (Nov 16, 2015)

I speak of the situation I see from Italy.
Sadly, I have always seen a tendency to grab sample libraries from the internet by any means, as if there is no work behind the production of them, as if there are no businesses nor companies behind them, as if they are just free products, mere means for the 'real' business, that is being composers/producers/songwriters, writer of music...

I have heard many people saying to me: 'oh, I use that instrument, I love that synth, those pizzicatos are awesome, I use this and this' and I fear, sometimes I feel, sometimes I know...that no license was paid at all.

I don't have the possibility and don't want to buy libraries or plugins every month and I 'squeeze' every drop from what I have and save money over time to get what I want. So I get a little upset if I think about this tendency, given the fact that 'staying current' with new technology and sound can be an important aspect of our jobs and these guys are not respecting the rule of the game.


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## gsilbers (Nov 16, 2015)

Tatu said:


> If I was a developer, I'd put out illegal copies out there my self, flooded with viruses and other shit of course. That should teach them a lesson. At least for some of them.




This is something I also was thinking about but instead of viruses ( viruses can probably get you into trouble) just upload broken copies of your product.
you create random torrent accounts and upload your instrument but with an iso that doesn't work. or with missing or corrupt samples.
you have to follow up and be active on those forums and lie saying the good copy has viruses and the ones your other self uploaded is good. after 2 times a kid downloads it and doesn't work they will move on to another product.

also, I think watermark will work in developed countries. if you download the illegal copy and see who bought it you can look up their address and real name. maybe ask the guy from spectrasonics or 8dio what are they doing.
8dio I know is close to san Francisco so they might be the most up to date on security stuff.
you can probably sue the person who uploaded it and get some money back?


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## Tatu (Nov 16, 2015)

gsilbers said:


> after 2 times a kid downloads it and doesn't work they will move on to another product


This is why I also think this would be effective. My other options for viruses would've been ear popping squeeks and fart noises instead of original samples, but that might lead the angry pirating mob to suspect the dev and lead to further problems. :D


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## JohnG (Nov 16, 2015)

I think it's a crime and I am sorry for you (and for the other developers as well).


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## kgdrum (Nov 16, 2015)

You might want to read some threads on KVR about this subject, Urs Heckmann who is the founder of U-HE has imo probably the best approach on ways to deal with this.
Stealing peoples products really sucks!Good luck.
KG


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## d.healey (Nov 16, 2015)

With Kontakt there is nothing you can do except block those who pirate your libraries from purchasing others - finding out who they are is the tricky part. Send me a PM I might be able to help


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## GULL (Nov 16, 2015)

soundethers said:


> So, we just started a very small lab, developing instruments for kontakt 5, began selling a bit, investing money and (a lot of) time, and after only two months... we see out there our stuff as free downloadable torrent...
> 
> I see, I'm not the first, will not be the last developer facing this, but just wanted to ask you, vi controls people, surely more experienced than me, what does this may mean for such a very small company as we are, and if there is anything we could really do (if it is useful) to stop this... Someone just said we should just forget about it and go on working harder and harder...
> 
> Any suggestions/experiences?



I understand the kind of pain it creates. I started my career as a developer (not music related stuff). I am not a developer any more but I can speak from my experience.

People who pirate a music library can not be genuine users. Composers who are professionals, and who are serious about what they do won't do that. It is a psychology that if you can steal something, you have to do it. No matter if it is useful or not. It happens. I see many great products which are not under strict licensing protection gets pirated, but I don't think it considerably affects sales revenue for above said reasons.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 16, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> The bright side is your stuff was good enough to steal.



Unfortunately, I don't even think that's really true in many cases. The way it seems to me is that the act of pirating software and media is more something like a twisted hoarding behavior. As GULL already said: it seems that if you _can_ pirate something, you shouldn't miss the opportunity. I remember my time at the university: of course, there were hard drives circulating, and you knew the "go-to guys" who had everything ready that could somehow turn out useful during the studies and the future career.

Obviously I noticed that everyone had their Photoshops, Mayas, Unity's, Final Cuts, Kompletes, Omnispheres, Symphobias, Cubase 5 (the last one they could pirate), Ableton, etc., but you also had the guys who would just hoard anything, large or small, just because it's seemingly cool to have it. I swear that the majority of the people only used a fraction of the sample libraries and plug-ins they "owned". The other thing is that you could hear very quickly that the typical "warez" user had only a very superficial competence and skill in using the stuff. I sometimes feel you can often detect the warez user just by the lumpy quality of music and programming/production.


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## mc_deli (Nov 16, 2015)

I'm with Tatu. If I was a dev and had mad skillz - or even just some skillz - I would propagate the obvious sites with a load of spamidiotwarez. Maybe not even anything malicious beyond some messed up audio. But lots of user comments that would make downloading a real pain/minefield for the casual warezcollecta.


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## D.Salzenberg (Nov 16, 2015)

If I was a Dev I would certainly be very tempted to post fake pirate copies stuffed full of really nasty viruses.
I kind of agree though with those who have said that people who download pirate stuff in most cases are not potential customers anyway so you really aren't losing sales to these people.
What is annoying is that there is a whole ecosystem out there based on people who post pirated and cracked software, music and films etc in order to profit from affiliate schemes and click through ads.
Some Seo guys I work with keep an eye on the Blackhat forums and places such as those are full of money making scheme tutorials based on posting either fake or pirated shit and then making the downloaders click through ads or competitions or sign ups etc to get to the links, and then the uploader gets a rakeback everytime.
These people easily know how to cover their tracks with fake email addresses, random credit card accounts they've bought from the dark net with bitcoins etc etc.
I think it's probably best to try and ignore it and just concentrate on your real customers.


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## mc_deli (Nov 16, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> What is annoying is that there is a whole ecosystem out there based on people who post pirated and cracked software, music and films etc in order to profit from affiliate schemes and click through ads.
> .


And then make hideous profits and not pay tax... Google *cough cough* ahem...


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## Jaap (Nov 16, 2015)

Really a pitty to hear and I agree that there is no justification for it. I have been walking around with some ideas in the past to start producing some libraries, but the whole pirate scene scared me away to be honest. I admire all the people who are still continue creating great libraries while knowing that your product will end up as torrent sooner or later.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 16, 2015)

mc_deli said:


> I'm with Tatu. If I was a dev and had mad skillz - or even just some skillz - I would propagate the obvious sites with a load of spamidiotwarez. Maybe not even anything malicious beyond some messed up audio. But lots of user comments that would make downloading a real pain/minefield for the casual warezcollecta.



Unfortunately that may get y


Tatu said:


> If I was a developer, I'd put out illegal copies out there my self, flooded with viruses and other shit of course. That should teach them a lesson. At least for some of them.



Unfortunately that will get you into trouble. Your reputation would be tarnished. Plus for most of those illegal sites you would have to join them for a fee. Once again your reputation is tarnished. You are not fixing the problem but adding more to it with malware. If I'm a legit enduser how do I know if my download wont contain the same.


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## catsass (Nov 16, 2015)

"Retinal scan, DNA profile, and stool sample testing complete, Mr. Zimmer. You may now load your virtual instrument."


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## mc_deli (Nov 17, 2015)

Would be very interesting to hear from mr valhalla on this.


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## Cowtothesky (Nov 17, 2015)

hirnkatheter said:


> I never understood why people steal software. The "I can't afford it now but I will buy it later" is a lame excuse IMHO.
> If you can't afford a certain software there are to options: Find a free or cheaper alternative or save money until you can afford it. If I can't afford a car I am not stealing one. If I can't afford an expensive guitar, I don't steal one.
> People don't see digital stuff as real items. So there taking away only Ones and Zeroes.
> Torrent software and/or music is killing it slowly but for sure.
> ...



I think you are right about people's perception on theft of digital things. Until we start getting police raids on people who illegally download, this perception will not change. 

I remember one of my first feature films and waiting for it to be released. I did an internet search before it was released and found it on a number of illegal websites. However, I found out later, it was just a scam. They put up the movie picture and the actual movie was something else. But after it was released, it was plastered all over the internet, including youtube. I wrote youtube several times to notify them of copyright infringement. They took it down, but as soon as they did, 3 more would pop up. I finally gave up as I just didn't have the time to notify youtube every time someone uploaded it. It is extremely aggravating. 

I wish you much success in this. I think that the 'fake watermark' idea is a good one. Sure, it won't prevent people just playing around in their home studios, but if they ever release anything, they will, at least, be worried about it. That's about all you can do right now until the feds take it more seriously.


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## GULL (Nov 17, 2015)

Another point. The same people complain about hardware dongles like iLok. Security against piracy can only be implemented at the cost of convenience of end user. We have to live with that.


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## Patrick (Nov 17, 2015)

kitekrazy said:


> Unfortunately that may get y
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that will get you into trouble. Your reputation would be tarnished. Plus for most of those illegal sites you would have to join them for a fee. Once again your reputation is tarnished. You are not fixing the problem but adding more to it with malware. If I'm a legit enduser how do I know if my download wont contain the same.


I am currently working on a videogame where the player manages a mercenary band in a low fantasy/medieval setting (kind of like jagged alliance in the middle ages, for anybody into games).
Obviously the illegal torrents are everywhere so the devs started spreading around a version where, an hour or so into the game, the only recruits that spawn for you to hire are *thieves*. This makes for hilarious posts in the official forums complaining about that _"bug" _, plus this pirated version works like a demo teaser for the game. We had a good laugh and I think the dev's approach is a clever way to do something in a situation where nothing can be done.

@soundethets: I wish you all the best for your endevour and hope you don't lose heart. I agree with the notion that many (I feel like most, but as has been pointed out, we lack data) of the pirates do not represent lost sales, at least that is something.


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## D.Salzenberg (Nov 17, 2015)

Police raids on downloaders is definitely not the answer, and is never going to happen anyway.
Shutting down torrent sites etc is not the answer either because another appears just as fast.
As far as I know the East West libraries and Cubase since version 5 have not been cracked or pirated. Not sure if this is mainly due to ilok or something else but it shows that some security measures do actually work.
Anyone releasing stuff based on Kontakt though is going to get pirated due to unlocked versions of Kontakt being easily available. It's up to developers to make their products secure.


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## C.R. Rivera (Nov 17, 2015)

"I think you are right about people's perception on theft of digital things. Until we start getting police raids on people who illegally download, this perception will not change."

While we can all lament the issue and costs of digital piracy, I might mention that we in the US have fought a 40 year war on drugs....and the results speak for themselves. I wonder if in 40 years we might have the same discussion. What is an actual solution that will work, as we have the largest prison population of the western world?


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## Guffy (Nov 17, 2015)

There should be something like Steam for every single plugin and samples.


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## tack (Nov 17, 2015)

Fugdup said:


> There should be something like Steam for every single plugin and samples.


+1. Make it so damn easy and painless to buy and install stuff that piracy is pushed to the remotest of fringes.


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Nov 17, 2015)

I released some complex nuclear software in 2003. Here is how I dealt with the pirates. I released it as freeware. Now I am thinking of going with a subscription plan......$0.00 per year. Do you think my users will go for that?


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## Lannister (Nov 17, 2015)

Fugdup said:


> There should be something like Steam for every single plugin and samples.



There is: it's called Steam 

There's quite a bit of software for sale through steam now, including Cakewalk and their synths etc.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 17, 2015)

Fugdup said:


> There should be something like Steam for every single plugin and samples.



There's plenty of developers who still make money with the "I trust you" attitude. Steam=absurd idea.


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## gsilbers (Nov 17, 2015)

maybe im just a paranoid cook but....

the winners on all of this are the big tech companies. Apple/microsoft hardware makers isp etc. every company that is enabling not only illigal software but sharing movies, music etc.
If you download an illigal product you need to: pay internet bill. pay for the computer and OS.
If its movie/music that gets uploaded to youtube then those companies are getting ad money and the uploaders pay for all those prevously mentioned things.
the point is that the tech companies are talking away the money from content creators/developers and no one is giving a shit.
of course goverment want to promote innovation so they hide from really defending copyright/internet laws because that would mean not getting money from those big tech corporations.

So going after the 14 yr old who is discovering making beats is not the solution but going after the person hosting the torrent site, or the torrent application and the person with the watermark'ed product should be the norm.
Same as youtube videos. what?! you mean that there is no way of monitoring that much content???? who's fukin problem is that?!?! not the content creator.. thats for sure. if a broadcaster showed a clip of star wars without permission/license or used a music w/o permission or paying for it... shit goes down hard. these file sharing sites - being youtube, facebook and illigaltorrent software have a lot of money. enough to pay up and pay us good. or pay up for better security or help goverment target in real life the guys doing the wrong thing. with 80billion dollars in cash reserves.. apple could do a better job at protecting from illigal content. Facebook/google/netflix/etc could do better at giving royalties and so on. The big tech companies have become a mafia prying on the work of content creators.
anyways.. i keep giving this rant so hopefully someone can start seeing it as well. or seeing part of this point view.


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## D.Salzenberg (Nov 18, 2015)

Well the big tech corporations are probably the greediest, most unethical and biggest violators of privacy that the world has ever seen.
When it comes to piracy they couldn't care less because there's no money in it for them to help prevent it.
I think we just have to accept that the genie is out of the bottle and isn't ever going back.
In the UK isp's are required by law to block torrent sites, but even every schoolkid knows how to use proxies to get to what they want, so it's a ridiculous measure anyway.
It really is up to developers to either make their products secure which Steinberg and East West have managed to do, or just concentrate on your legitimate customers because as has been said earlier you aren't really losing sales to people who would never be your customers in the first place.


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## gsilbers (Nov 18, 2015)




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## soundethers (Nov 27, 2015)

To say my word about it: I do not look for any kind of revenge. Anything can stop pirates, they simply laugh about serials or watermarks (those who crack stuff do not risk personally, maybe someone else, too stupid to understand he might be tracked). I do not look for the money I loose too. I simply think it's an important ethic and moral question: the world will never be the better world many of us want it to be, until we will not acknowledge the value of the effort and hard work of each other.
Murrthecat said a lot of what I think. I still spare my money to buy new stuff to create more, new product, doing my best and feeling good about it. Someone else can only steal from others. There is an immense gap between us, a moral gap. BTW, all my products have very fair prices...


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## soundethers (Nov 27, 2015)

d.healey said:


> With Kontakt there is nothing you can do except block those who pirate your libraries from purchasing others - finding out who they are is the tricky part. Send me a PM I might be able to help


Thanks for your reply, I know your work and respect what you do a lot. Let me think a while about it... It's not only me here. Thank you for proposing to help us. I'll be back (I am touring at the moment). Cheers, Matteo


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