# Michael Giacchino to score The Batman



## zolhof

Matt Reeves' proposal to score the new Batman movie:



You might be wondering why David Arnold is dressed up as Godzilla...






Or Leia...






...






 

He and Giacchino recently faced off at the Royal Albert Hall in hope of Settling the Score.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing a fresh take on the Batman musical mythos. MG has shown interest in scoring the film before but I guess it's official now.


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## Nemoy

Can't wait for Batman: Twilight Saga. Lol!


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## Consona

to say the least

This Batman is described as a Hitchcockian noir movie, and no matter how hard I try, I can't imagine getting some Herrmannian level of music from Giacchino. Maybe I'm wrong and he'll surprise me, but after what he did in the franchises John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith and James Horner wrote for... the picture says it all.


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## I like music

Consona said:


> to say the least
> 
> This Batman is described as a Hitchcockian noir movie, and no matter how hard I try, I can't imagine getting some Herrmannian level of music from Giacchino. Maybe I'm wrong and he'll surprise me, but after what he did in the franchises John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith and James Horner wrote for... the picture says it all.



I liked Giacchino in Lost. Since then, I can't think of much that I liked (in fact, some of it downright annoyed me for some reason, especially ST). But when you get used to hearing Goldsmith flexing his muscle on Star Trek, surely anything will pale in comparison?


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## Consona

Goldsmith on Trek and Apes, Horner on Trek, Williams on Star Wars... Impossible to compete, but why? Giacchino is 52, he should be making master level music by now. His Star Trek theme was so nice, but the rest around that. Where's the grafulness of Horner's pieces? Horner was fricking 30 when he was writing for Star Trek and his skill level at that time was higher.

Not to mention Goldsmith on Rambo, which was overtaken by Brain Tyler, that's like the downgrade of the century.

Honestly I wish Mike Verta was composing for this Hitchcock-esque Batman. He'd nail it. Giacchino's _not yet there_ music will make me squirm in the theatre seat. I'm harsh but this should be the best of the best level here, hollywood can afford anybody, yet it's not. At least it won't be the MI Fallout ultra-_"epic"_-loud cringefest.


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## Abdulrahman

I've never been a fan of his work. Literally, no music he has done every captured my attention. Sorry, but that is the plain truth!


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## ProfoundSilence

composers are an interesting bunch 

"master level music by now" surely, many of the greats of different eras wrote breathtaking masterpieces when they were 19 - so I assume Consona you've got some master level works to compare? Unless ofcourse you're still in highschool, inwhich you'd be permitted to not be compared to composers of a completely different era, with a completely different experience, with completely different resources, with completely different taste. 

MG would have been in highschool in the late 80s, jamming out to tears for fears or someshit


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## dcoscina

If there is one difference I hear between today's film composers and the ones from the Silver Age era, it's that the new breed is influenced by film scores whereas Williams, Herrmann, Goldsmith, Horner, etc etc were influenced by mid 20th century composers which informed their work. You can hear Berg and Varese in Planet of the Apes, Korngold in Williams' Superman and Hook, Mahler in Barry's string work, Ravel in Goldsmith's Legend, Prokofiev & Shosty in Horner's work (debatable about HOW much you can hear since some of it is literally copied but that's another topic). Part of it is because directors are temping their movies with other scores rather than classical music. But I also think this cannibalism is due in part to the newer generation not being fluent or cognizant of the modern orchestral masters. I could be wrong but aside from guys like Powell who openly admit they don't listen to film music, it seems to be a prevalent thing.

Additionally, thanks to modern technology and samples, I wonder how many composers have had time in front of a real group of musicians or have studied orchestration at all. Conrad Pope gave a terrific interview to ScoreCast a few years back discussing the pitfalls of MIDI composing. It was right on the money. It's amazing to hear a real orchestra and see how the different sections work, and even if you aren't given the opportunity to work with one, everybody composing using orchestral samples should seek out local groups to listen to, watch their rehearsals, go to large symphony concerts if you live close to a major city. Everyone can learn more about phrasing, balance, and structure by being exposed to these masterworks. And having a good sense of overall architecture is pivotal in producing a score that is dramatically effective and satisfying. Pieces that move from one idea to the next without any kind of development or variation make it hard to connect with. And I think to a degree this is what Giacchino suffers from- he might have a good idea but it's never really fleshed out the way Williams could take that opening motive from E.T. on piccolo and recap it in the finale with full orchestra which punctuated that film (and score!).


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## zolhof

A sneak peek of the score (recording sessions)


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## JonS

Consona said:


> to say the least
> 
> This Batman is described as a Hitchcockian noir movie, and no matter how hard I try, I can't imagine getting some Herrmannian level of music from Giacchino. Maybe I'm wrong and he'll surprise me, but after what he did in the franchises John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith and James Horner wrote for... the picture says it all.


Giacchino is horrible. Perfect example of how luck has more to do with success than anything else. I can't stand his music.


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## Abdulrahman

zolhof said:


> A sneak peek of the score (recording sessions)



Why do I feel like he's trying to sound like Hans Zimmer here? I hope he won't butcher Spider-Man 2. I want to hear Danny's themes!


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## dcoscina

JonS said:


> Giacchino is horrible. Perfect example of how luck has more to do with success than anything else. I can't stand his music.



Plus, it sounds like this....without the extra notes...


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## Hans-Peter

dcoscina said:


> Plus, it sounds like this....without the extra notes...


Ever thought that this is an obvious reference to the death march and perhaps integral to the plot (as in Bruce Waynes' parents being killed with the weapon that Battinsons' bat sign on the suit is made of)?

And btw, to all the haters here, your opinion is noted, but have any of you listened to LOST by Giacchino? Still to this day one of the most innovative scores ever made (especially TV) - ok; minus the romantic and emotional stuff, but the mythical and action-related elements are unique. And then there are the Incredibles. Giacchino can do ok but in some cases crazily excel in what he is doing - especially when he is passionate about the project, which very much appears to be the case with Batman.

I'm quite happy he was chosen for The Batman (and this is coming from an extreme Batman aficionado). Of course, everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Just had to bring some balance to the bashing in the previous posts.


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## Robin Thompson

Surprised no one's mentioned his previous scores for Matt Reeves - ie the Apes movies - which were quite good and of a style that could be very fitting for B-man. No doubt why Reeves kept him on. And his Spidey scores have been excellent. I'm not MG's biggest fan either, but I see no reason to be pessimistic here.


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## Loerpert

Interesting to see how much hate there is towards Giacchino. Wonder where it all comes from. I love his scores (Star Wars, Jurassic World, Jojo)


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## Michael Antrum

I thought Giacchino's score for The Incredibles was bang on the nail for the genre, and the Married Life theme from UP! was absolutely perfect for the movie - in fact one fo the best marriages of music and film I've seen.


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## Inventio

... and remember there are directors and producers to please , that music for film is not written per se and that today films are not the films made 40-50 years ago....


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## dcoscina

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> And yet Giacchino is the one scoring major Hollywood movies & winning an Oscar along the way, while you guys have been doing…whatever it is you’ve been doing.


Oh this old chestnut again? So following your argument logic, Ariana Grande is even more legit because she’s more popular, has won countless awards, and has worked with the top people in the industry.

Additionally, this means Gia is way more successsful than that loser Alex North who never won an Oscar in his life except that bullshit token the academy gave him before he croaked. And I suppose John Powell is also at the same level as us plebs who have no right to voice an opinion since he’s never received an Oscar.

It’s a forum man, and while opposing viewpoints are welcome, don’t use nonsensical barbs like “what have we done?” To invalidate those with opinions that don’t line up with yours.

One last thing- even if we entertain your straw man argument here, why is it that composers like Tom Newman, John Powell, JN Howard or many others never receive the same negative comments here or many places? Perhaps it’s because they are universally well respected composers who actually write really solid music? Hmmm?

Damn, I’d love to hear a Thomas Newman Batman come to think of it…


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## Loerpert

dcoscina said:


> Oh this old chestnut again? So following your argument logic, Ariana Grande is even more legit because she’s more popular, has won countless awards, and has worked with the top people in the industry.
> 
> Additionally, this means Gia is way more successsful than that loser Alex North who never won an Oscar in his life except that bullshit token the academy gave him before he croaked. And I suppose John Powell is also at the same level as us plebs who have no right to voice an opinion since he’s never received an Oscar.
> 
> It’s a forum man, and while opposing viewpoints are welcome, don’t use nonsensical barbs like “what have we done?” To invalidate those with opinions that don’t line up with yours.
> 
> One last thing- even if we entertain your straw man argument here, why is it that composers like Tom Newman, John Powell, JN Howard or many others never receive the same negative comments here or many places? Perhaps it’s because they are universally well respected composers who actually write really solid music? Hmmm?
> 
> Damn, I’d love to hear a Thomas Newman Batman come to think of it…



Just interested. What did Giacchino do to deserve al the negativity? This is a genuine question since that's all new to me


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## I like music

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I can see you have edited your comment above and removed the section where you ridiculed Guacchino’s choice of chords with words like “OMG” etc. This is unfortunate as my reply to you was based in no small part on that particular outburst of yours. Oh well.
> 
> Edit: Well, it wasn’t a reply directly to you, but your original post was the final reason that prompted me to write what I did. What several people have written in this thread reminds me uncomfortably about the Spitfire Westworld competition. So many sour grapes…


Not sure it is a case of sour grapes (assuming you mean in relation to his success and not others/ours?)

I seem to really dislike his music for quite a few films. Can't put my finger on why. And then I generally move on.

That said, Lost was great, and now that I come to think of it, I also enjoyed The Incredibles. Otherwise, yeah, something grates and I can't figure out what or why. Definitely not his success. I'm almost always happy for people who have found their passion and are doing well. 

Except for this guy who took my spot on the cricket team because his dad was the coach. Which reminds me, I need to go complain on a different forum about that one!


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## dcoscina

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I can see you have edited your comment above and removed the section where you ridiculed Guacchino’s choice of chords with words like “OMG” etc. This is unfortunate as my reply to you was based in no small part on that particular outburst of yours. Oh well.
> 
> Edit: Well, it wasn’t a reply directly to you, but your original post was the final reason that prompted me to write what I did. What several people have written in this thread reminds me uncomfortably about the Spitfire Westworld competition. So many sour grapes…


It's not sour grapes. In the last decade, I've generally held my tongue about composers' music I dislike. No point in adding to the pot. Once in a while, I voice an opinion that is generally critical rather than positive ones I have written in the "In Praise of..." series of posts I've left here in the last year). I used to be a huge Giacchino fan back in his Alias days and his earlier outings. I found he had a sound that was exciting and honoured the traditions set forth by Silver Age composers. But after Ratatouille, I noticed a change towards more harmonically simple fare with much less development of musical ideas. His signature sound became noted for minimal piano chords...

Now, if he in fact is quoting the Chopin because it has some narrative contextual meaning, that's cool. I just hope his full probes this idea further to match the complexity of the Batman character. I have no doubt the film will be excellent. Matt Reeves has not produced a single dud to my knowledge. He's an excellent filmmaker. His editing in particular is deliberate and assured. So, yeah, outbursts aside, I will wait to see if there is more meat on the bones to this score. I hope there is because I know I will love the film, given who is working on it. But as a composer, I just don't dig Giacchino's evolution since his early days. 

Re: The Incredibles. Fun score. But let's be honest here. We need to credit Tim Simonec who has a long career as a big band composer and arranger. Brad Bird had originally hired John Barry because he wanted that retro-Barry 60s sound. Barry walked because he felt he'd long since evolved. Giacchino was brought in to ape (pun intended) Barry's and Lalo Schifrin's 60s style which he did quit convincingly.


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## zolhof

I must be one of the few people on the planet that never watched Lost, but having studied some of the music under Norman Ludwin - and learning a lot from it! - I have to say Giacchino is no slouch. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion though, as long as we stay civil and respectful towards each other and the composer. 

I did, however, play the bejesus out of Medal of Honor up until MoH: Airborne and LOVE the Giacchino and Lennertz scores!

Today, it's pretty much the norm to have big orchestras and renowned composers attached to AAA western games, but back in 1999? Heart of Darkness (Bruce Broughton, GOAT), The Lost World (Giacchino), Total Annihilation (Jeremy Soule), and Outcast (Lennie Moore) all had magnificent scores, but Medal of Honor delivered a cinematic experience that was unheard of, forever changing the course of video game history. We can thank Spielberg and Giacchino for that. If you are a Williams or Kamen fan, do yourself a favor and check out the MoH Collection by La-La-Land. 

And if you are a fan of awesome things, press play:




Feel free to turn this thread into a Broughton love fest. It was my plan all along, bwahaha!


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## Jish

zolhof said:


> Today, it's pretty much the norm to have big orchestras and renowned composers attached to AAA western games, but back in 1999? Heart of Darkness (Bruce Broughton, GOAT), The Lost World (Giacchino)


I think Gia's _Lost World_ score for PS1/Saturn came out in 97' but the point certainly remains- some of the scores highlighted absolutely jumped out at the time- I really loved some of those cues of his from that 'Lost World' game- certainly better than the game itself (which was, _okay_ for a movie-game back then). 

Didn't Spielberg at the time (referring to Giacchino) say something like, "I think I might have discovered the new John Williams!" Hehe. I personally think had he simply stayed focused on game scores, we would have a much more interesting catalogue of MG music by now. But it happened as it happened, and I doubt highly he regret's much of anything all that much given where his career eventually went.


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## dcoscina

zolhof said:


> I must be one of the few people on the planet that never watched Lost, but having studied some of the music under Norman Ludwin - and learning a lot from it! - I have to say Giacchino is no slouch. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion though, as long as we stay civil and respectful towards each other and the composer.
> 
> I did, however, play the bejesus out of Medal of Honor up until MoH: Airborne and LOVE the Giacchino and Lennertz scores!
> 
> Today, it's pretty much the norm to have big orchestras and renowned composers attached to AAA western games, but back in 1999? Heart of Darkness (Bruce Broughton, GOAT), The Lost World (Giacchino), Total Annihilation (Jeremy Soule), and Outcast (Lennie Moore) all had magnificent scores, but Medal of Honor delivered a cinematic experience that was unheard of, forever changing the course of video game history. We can thank Spielberg and Giacchino for that. If you are a Williams or Kamen fan, do yourself a favor and check out the MoH Collection by La-La-Land.
> 
> And if you are a fan of awesome things, press play:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to turn this thread into a Broughton love fest. It was my plan all along, bwahaha!



The world could always use more Bruce Broughton


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## José Herring

Michael Antrum said:


> I thought Giacchino's score for The Incredibles was bang on the nail for the genre, and the Married Life theme from UP! was absolutely perfect for the movie - in fact one fo the best marriages of music and film I've seen.


I won't comment on Giacchino other than it's hard to find out who is who when it comes to his scores. Incredibles is a great example. Most of the great music sequences done in that score were done by an arranger Tim Simonec. So Giacchino wrote the theme melody and some of the more non jazz underscore but the stuff that made the Incrdibles score INCROYABLE was done by somebody else. Hollywood is so weird that I honestly can't stand this practice sometimes. 

https://timsimonec.com/music/arrangements/


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## José Herring

But on a positive note I tend to really like Giacchino's productions. He generally isn't trying to sound more epic than epic by triple tracking 3 orchestras and 3 rock bands at Air Studios or something. He tends to play it close to reality which I like and that's a tough sell these days but he's doing it.


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## dcoscina

José Herring said:


> I won't comment on Giacchino other than it's hard to find out who is who when it comes to his scores. Incredibles is a great example. Most of the great music sequences done in that score were done by an arranger Tim Simonec. So Giacchino wrote the theme melody and some of the more non jazz underscore but the stuff that made the Incrdibles score INCROYABLE was done by somebody else. Hollywood is so weird that I honestly can't stand this practice sometimes.
> 
> https://timsimonec.com/music/arrangements/


Nicely put Jose. Tim is also from all accounts one of the nicest guys you could ever meet. A friend of mine was present during the MOH recordings way back and he hung out with Simonec and said he was a lovely guy- and he also was/is an avid hockey fan!


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## dcoscina

José Herring said:


> But on a positive note I tend to really like Giacchino's productions. He generally isn't trying to sound more epic than epic by triple tracking 3 orchestras and 3 rock bands at Air Studios or something. He tends to play it close to reality which I like and that's a tough sell these days but he's doing it.


While I don't listen to his stuff on its own, I do remember his underscore for the POTA series was effective within the film. I believe both films were also directed by Reeves so he clearly has a good creative rapport.


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## JonS

Loerpert said:


> Just interested. What did Giacchino do to deserve al the negativity? This is a genuine question since that's all new to me


For me, it's all about taste. I rarely ever dislike a score, but somehow every time I listen to a score that I cannot stand low and behold you know who wrote it. I don't know him personally, he may be the loveliest person, but I can't stand his writing. His music is completely forgettable. I do not wish the worse for him at all. I think it's great he has done well in the industry, but I don't like his scores at all and I cannot think of any other composer I have a problem with. Career success in life is mostly about luck, so anyone who is succeeding in any industry got incredibly lucky because there are far too many talented, hard working, determined, persistent people in the world who will never succeed. Look at how many fantastic movies, plays, musicals, books and music are made every year that do horribly in financial terms and all of the successful projects that make a ton of money but are horrible and should never have been made. Being successful is about luck not about worth and merit. And, being successful is not how I measure someone's worth either. Are they compassionate, loyal, generous, kind, emotionally intelligent, thoughtful, caring, loving, humble, that is what matters to me most not if someone is rich, powerful, or famous. I have nothing personally against this guy and wish him well, I just can't stand his music for film.


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## Arbee

Success = some talent + solid work ethic + professional attitude and empathy + *exceptional interpersonal and relationship building skills* + opportunity (or luck if you prefer). No?

I'm not a fan of his music either but I do find the "it's mostly just luck" angle to be very dismissive and unfair. Like most things in life, relationships rule.


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## Drundfunk

And here I am wondering why not more people like Hans are (openly) frequenting this forum. Guess now we know....


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## Pier

JonS said:


> His music is completely forgettable.


Everyone I know remembers his theme from The Incredibles or the BRAAAM from Lost.


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## Voider

I wish they'd get Christopher Nolan, Christian Bale and Joseph Gordon-Levitt back and just continue the legendary Dark Knight trilogy as it was planned. Joseph Gordon-Levitt as Robin so damn cool, and nobody ever before were able to catch the feeling of >Gotham< as well as Christopher Nolan imho. The cast was insanely good, the atmosphere so deep..


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## el-bo

Drundfunk said:


> And here I am wondering why not more people like Hans are (openly) frequenting this forum. Guess now we know....


Every so often a thread like this comes to remind me that I have no business being a member of this community :(


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## ed buller

dcoscina said:


> If there is one difference I hear between today's film composers and the ones from the Silver Age era, it's that the new breed is influenced by film scores whereas Williams, Herrmann, Goldsmith, Horner, etc etc were influenced by mid 20th century composers which informed their work. You can hear Berg and Varese in Planet of the Apes, Korngold in Williams' Superman and Hook, Mahler in Barry's string work, Ravel in Goldsmith's Legend, Prokofiev & Shosty in Horner's work (debatable about HOW much you can hear since some of it is literally copied but that's another topic). Part of it is because directors are temping their movies with other scores rather than classical music. But I also think this cannibalism is due in part to the newer generation not being fluent or cognizant of the modern orchestral masters. I could be wrong but aside from guys like Powell who openly admit they don't listen to film music, it seems to be a prevalent thing.
> 
> Additionally, thanks to modern technology and samples, I wonder how many composers have had time in front of a real group of musicians or have studied orchestration at all. Conrad Pope gave a terrific interview to ScoreCast a few years back discussing the pitfalls of MIDI composing. It was right on the money. It's amazing to hear a real orchestra and see how the different sections work, and even if you aren't given the opportunity to work with one, everybody composing using orchestral samples should seek out local groups to listen to, watch their rehearsals, go to large symphony concerts if you live close to a major city. Everyone can learn more about phrasing, balance, and structure by being exposed to these masterworks. And having a good sense of overall architecture is pivotal in producing a score that is dramatically effective and satisfying. Pieces that move from one idea to the next without any kind of development or variation make it hard to connect with. And I think to a degree this is what Giacchino suffers from- he might have a good idea but it's never really fleshed out the way Williams could take that opening motive from E.T. on piccolo and recap it in the finale with full orchestra which punctuated that film (and score!).


THIS !

e


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## dcoscina

Drundfunk said:


> And here I am wondering why not more people like Hans are (openly) frequenting this forum. Guess now we know....


Maybe because they are busy composing? That’s the likeliest reason. 

Let’s get one thing clear here- the idea of music criticism has been around for centuries. You will find critics bashing Composers, composers bashing composers , composers’ pets bashing other composers’ pets (ok that last one is a joke)… but there are several books and treatises containing criticism of music as far back as we can go… 

Criticism is a natural extension of the human condition for better or worse. It’s that restless desire to improve by identifying problems with what exists. Now, can it be done in a diplomatic way? Yes. But I think largely our forum here is pretty respectful in general. If you want a stark contrast, try Film Score Monthly Online. That place is nasty!


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## Living Fossil

Arbee said:


> Success = some talent + solid work ethic + professional attitude and empathy + *exceptional interpersonal and relationship building skills* + opportunity (or luck if you prefer). No?
> 
> I'm not a fan of his music either but I do find the "it's mostly just luck" angle to be very dismissive and unfair. Like most things in life, relationships rule.


The psychology of success is indeed an interesting area.

I think the points you named are valid. In my personal observation there are two other factors i would mention:

1) The art of deception in one's social appearance is crucial.
A) First, most artists are extremely vain, however some while being vain successfully manage it to be seen as modest and down to earth. And since envy also is a crucial part in the world of artists, it's much easier to accept people who are modest – or who appear to be modest.

B) Being extremely egoistic but creating the impression that one is altruistic. There is no career without support/help from others. People are more willing to help someone if they think they are part of a team (and not in support of an egomaniac). That's why lots of successful people leave a trace of desperately disappointed ex-supporters behind them, who at one point realize it was not about a team, but rather only about the person they supported)

2) when it comes to be "successful" i guess there are different categories of success.
The most intense form of success comes paired with "trendsetting".
And for an artist to become a trendsetter it's not only necessary that he has visions (like e.g. the painter Van Gogh had), but it's also necessary that these visions are compatible with the Zeitgeist of the time he lives in (i.e. opposed as in Van Gogh's case).
So, matching the taste of the time the artist lives in, is crucial too.

As for the topic: I'm wondering that Giacchino evokes so many (negative) emotions in some. 
In my eyes he's somebody, who delivers what his clients expect and therefore has a nice career.


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## dcoscina

Giacchino spent time in PR earlier in his life. He's great at it. His demeanour is very inviting and he's probably excellent to work with. This, coupled with his enthusiasm for film and film music, helped him establish ties to very good people in Hollywood. The modern world works very much this way. Compare, say, to Elliot Goldenthal who is a very schooled composer but quieter, less extroverted. He became a commodity in Hollywood in the early 90s by the sheer originality of his music, rather than his persona. Is it any wonder he's receded back into concert works and only occasionally working with his partner Julie Taymor? Same with Don Davis. Crazy talented and skilled composer. But he withdrew from film scoring (and I dearly wish he would have scored the upcoming Matrix 4, but that's another topic). The modern landscape more than ever requires composers to be as adept at social skills if not more than musical skills. Herrmann wouldn't have had a career with his fiery temper today even with his massive compositional talents. Sad, but true. 

So, establishing relationships is perhaps the most pivotal skill one requires today, in almost any field to be honest. It's the whole, _who you know, not what you know_ .. though once you get the gig, you had better know something!


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## Abdulrahman

dcoscina said:


> Oh this old chestnut again? So following your argument logic, Ariana Grande is even more legit because she’s more popular, has won countless awards, and has worked with the top people in the industry.
> 
> Additionally, this means Gia is way more successsful than that loser Alex North who never won an Oscar in his life except that bullshit token the academy gave him before he croaked. And I suppose John Powell is also at the same level as us plebs who have no right to voice an opinion since he’s never received an Oscar.
> 
> It’s a forum man, and while opposing viewpoints are welcome, don’t use nonsensical barbs like “what have we done?” To invalidate those with opinions that don’t line up with yours.
> 
> One last thing- even if we entertain your straw man argument here, why is it that composers like Tom Newman, John Powell, JN Howard or many others never receive the same negative comments here or many places? Perhaps it’s because they are universally well respected composers who actually write really solid music? Hmmm?
> 
> Damn, I’d love to hear a Thomas Newman Batman come to think of it…


I never liked Ariana Grande's voice. I tried to listen to her music but it was impossible!


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## Kyle Preston

^ I completely agree with you on this @dcoscina

I wonder if this happened with Michael Nyman?

These days, I say no to a lot more projects for similar reasons. Getting gigs now, the nepotism has merged with this unspoken rule that we must be emotionally available 24/7, wearing a pretend extrovert face locked-and-loaded. Working like this makes me hate composing. And if that’s what the game is now, that’s cool. I don’t fault any composer for getting ahead because they thrive in these conditions, it’s just not for me.

And there’s also another unspoken rule about all this (especially here on VI Control), most of us seem obsessed with the rules of working as a _media composer_. But we're all quite unversed on the rules of working as a _recording artist_. I've always been more drawn to composers like Phillip Glass or Ryuichi Sakamoto -- they don't score (or license music) in every film, but when they do, ho boy am I excited!

They offer an alternative template for working composers today, where maintaining relationships is _not _a pivotal aspect of survival. It's a harder life for sure, I've been following their footsteps for years (as best I can) and it's paying bills, but it _is_ a grind.

I'm not really sure why I'm saying all this in a thread about Giacchino, I've got nothing against the guy and I think constructive criticism is always healthy. I just wanted to point out that there are career paths unlike Giacchino's that are still obtainable, even in 2021. And in my experience, way more creatively fulfilling.


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## dcoscina

Great post @Kyle Preston. All of the paid composing work I ever got was because I connections with someone. It's the same with jobs in general. So much supply for such little demand, and in terms of how our species is built, we go with the prospects that are less anxiety-producing and more of a sure thing. 

I don't begrudge Giacchino for doing what works for him. No one is forcing me to listen to his music. 
And whatever opinions I have about the theory and technique around his music choices, he does make them work to picture. *Let Me In* is a prime example (and another Mat Reeves film). The music works exceedingly well, and it's brilliantly executed. the material that accompanies the boy and the vampire is all of the tender piano stuff. The portent and Ligeti type music actually underscores the bullies at school who torment the boy. I love that kind of approach. Totally against expectation but also revealing who the real monsters were.

My initial reaction earlier was excessive and which I edited upon retrospect because of that. I prefer to focus on the music and films that inspire me and that I like, rather than complain about what I don't. No point really. 

As things go, I would have loved to see a Paul Thomas Anderson/Jonny Greenwood collab on Batman. That would be pretty interesting-- and have Daniel Day-Lewis come out of retirement to play an aged Dark Knight... He would be the scariest Batman....ever.


----------



## Kyle Preston

dcoscina said:


> As things go, I would have loved to see a Paul Thomas Anderson/Jonny Greenwood collab on Batman. That would be pretty interesting-- and have Daniel Day-Lewis come out of retirement to play an aged Dark Knight... He would be the scariest Batman....ever.



O man, this would really be something! I can't even fathom how interesting it would be. PTA would make one hell of a Batman film. And it's funny, I've kind of always thought of Daniel Plainview as vengeance itself. Kinda like Bruce Wayne but without the morals.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

dcoscina said:


> My initial reaction earlier was excessive and which I edited upon retrospect because of that.


Most of us probably react like this from time to time; I know I do 🙂


----------



## dcoscina

Kyle Preston said:


> O man, this would really be something! I can't even fathom how interesting it would be. PTA would make one hell of a Batman film. And it's funny, I've kind of always thought of Daniel Plainview as vengeance itself. Kinda like Bruce Wayne but without the morals.


one of the most intimidating characters in cinema history.


----------



## JonS

Pier said:


> Everyone I know remembers his theme from The Incredibles or the BRAAAM from Lost.


I have never watched The Incredibles or Lost. I don't have any issues with you loving his music, it's just not for me. Again, I have nothing personally against him, he may be a wonderful person. Just don't like his film scores.


----------



## Pier

JonS said:


> I have never watched The Incredibles or Lost. I don't have any issues with you loving his music, it's just not for me. Again, I have nothing personally against him, he may be a wonderful person. Just don't like his film scores.


I don't love his music. I'm arguing that it (at least his best stuff) is definitely not forgettable like you claimed.


----------



## cmillar

My complaint about composers like Giacchino (and there are now many like him) is that he just 'does what's needed'. Just emulate a style or temp-track the producers want, and nothing more.

OK...so that's the type of complaint that will only come from other composers who're old enough to have been really into film music for a long time (for me, that's the early '80's) and who have done some composing for film (I've done lots of independent films, documentaries, but nothing in the 'major' film leagues...but I am a composer who has listened to and been influence by Horner, Goldsmith, Williams, Morriconi, the Newmans', Elfman, Don Davis, John Corigliano, Christopher Young, and many others.

The thing is this...when you hear some music by one of these composers, you can pretty well identify the composer by their music. They have a 'sound', a 'style', some 'trademark' motifs, etc.

And, they in turn, were influenced by the heavyweight composers of the last couple of hundred years.

Many of todays 'composers du jour' are totally interchangeable with one another. Or, they all want to sound like Zimmer (who has been quite original in this own way and written some great music.)

Whatever....they know who they know and do what they do.

Nothing to get very excited about.


----------



## dcoscina

cmillar said:


> My complaint about composers like Giacchino (and there are now many like him) is that he just 'does what's needed'. Just emulate a style or temp-track the producers want, and nothing more.
> 
> OK...so that's the type of complaint that will only come from other composers who're old enough to have been really into film music for a long time (for me, that's the early '80's) and who have done some composing for film (I've done lots of independent films, documentaries, but nothing in the 'major' film leagues...but I am a composer who has listened to and been influence by Horner, Goldsmith, Williams, Morriconi, the Newmans', Elfman, Don Davis, John Corigliano, Christopher Young, and many others.
> 
> The thing is this...when you hear some music by one of these composers, you can pretty well identify the composer by their music. They have a 'sound', a 'style', some 'trademark' motifs, etc.
> 
> And, they in turn, were influenced by the heavyweight composers of the last couple of hundred years.
> 
> Many of todays 'composers du jour' are totally interchangeable with one another. Or, they all want to sound like Zimmer (who has been quite original in this own way and written some great music.)
> 
> Whatever....they know who they know and do what they do.
> 
> Nothing to get very excited about.


This ^. I was a child of the 70s and grew up with Star Wars, Star Trek, Alien, Rocky, Pelham 1,2,3, Dirty Harry, and more. Those scores all had signature sounds to them. Personally, I agree with y our sentiments. But I guess I've by and large been resigned to just keep listening and studying those scores or even older ones (and mostly mid 20th-century concert works by Bartok, Shosty, Stravinsky, Ravel, etc etc) to be inspired and learn. The modern stuff is what it is. I cannot connect with much of it emotionally and certainly not cerebrally but hey, it's a new world and the demands are different. 

There are exceptions. Powell's HTTYD series is amazing. Chris Willis' Personal History of David Copperfield was a stand-out. Much of Wallfisch's Shazam was excellent.


----------



## JonS

Pier said:


> I don't love his music. I'm arguing that it (at least his best stuff) is definitely not forgettable like you claimed.


I will check it out one day, Pier. Thanks. Wishing you the best!!


----------



## cmillar

dcoscina said:


> This ^. I was a child of the 70s and grew up with Star Wars, Star Trek, Alien, Rocky, Pelham 1,2,3, Dirty Harry, and more. Those scores all had signature sounds to them. Personally, I agree with y our sentiments. But I guess I've by and large been resigned to just keep listening and studying those scores or even older ones (and mostly mid 20th-century concert works by Bartok, Shosty, Stravinsky, Ravel, etc etc) to be inspired and learn. The modern stuff is what it is. I cannot connect with much of it emotionally and certainly not cerebrally but hey, it's a new world and the demands are different.
> 
> There are exceptions. Powell's HTTYD series is amazing. Chris Willis' Personal History of David Copperfield was a stand-out. Much of Wallfisch's Shazam was excellent.


For sure, there are exceptions!

There is some fantastic music on some TV shows, especially by the streaming networks like Netflix and Hulu. Some wonderful music!

But the major Hollywood stuff these days? Not really much to get musically excited about. 

By the nature of the business, the studios have to 'play it safe' and put out what will sell, right?

That seems to be more and more of the whole trend these days for the zillion dollar projects. Play it safe.

I can see why AI might take over these huge blockbuster projects before AI gets into the new TV/streaming productions.

I'm much more excited by what I hear on Hulu and Netflix.....creative music by very creative composers!


----------



## dcoscina

cmillar said:


> For sure, there are exceptions!
> 
> There is some fantastic music on some TV shows, especially by the streaming networks like Netflix and Hulu. Some wonderful music!
> 
> But the major Hollywood stuff these days? Not really much to get musically excited about.
> 
> By the nature of the business, the studios have to 'play it safe' and put out what will sell, right?
> 
> That seems to be more and more of the whole trend these days for the zillion dollar projects. Play it safe.
> 
> I can see why AI might take over these huge blockbuster projects before AI gets into the new TV/streaming productions.
> 
> I'm much more excited by what I hear on Hulu and Netflix.....creative music by very creative composers!


I am going to attempt to explain my own personal feelings about the current state of film music, to help clarify things. I grew up listening to music. Classical, jazz, pop, rock, but mostly film scores. At the age of 6, they just resonated with me, and I happened to be a kid at the time when Hollywood Silver Age composers were in full swing. This vast wealth of creativity and technique inspired me to write music myself, at the age of 10. It's been a lifelong passion and all those great scores motivated me to learn and improve. When I was studying composition in the late 80s at university, film music was shunned. Heaven forbid someone wanted to write something tonal... yikes! So I had to use resources like On the Track by Fred Karlin as my practical guide to learning the craft, as well as scoring student films. 

What I'm trying to get at is that great scores inspire others to strive to achieve the same. Whether they do it or not is immaterial. It's the inspiration that is the catalyst. These days, sorry to say, I rarely get that same feeling. For large projects at least, there is more focus on production and less music meat on the bones. I guess that's what is popular so far be it from me to say anything, except, like you, I just don't listen much. I focus on the scores and music that still does inspire and captivate me, though I think it's amazing that a 1912 piece like Le Sacre can still knock me out even having heard it countless times. 

So, as I have tried to do in the last decade, I will chime in only on posts of music that I enjoy and can extol its virtues. The rest, well, who cares what I think anyhow...


----------



## Henning

I first noticed Giacchino in the series "Alias". Really liked the music he made there. I also think that Ratatouille and Coco are wonderful scores with lots of local folkloristic feel embedded.


----------



## Pier

dcoscina said:


> These days, sorry to say, I rarely get that same feeling. For large projects at least, there is more focus on production and less music meat on the bones.


I think there are two reasons why music has changed towards much simpler writing:

1) Stuff like say John Williams, as great as it is on a technique level, is perceived as old fashioned. This has happened in all arts: literature, painting, etc. It's not a bad or good thing. Some people prefer Van Gogh, some Rembrandt, and it's fine.

2) Film music has gravitated towards simpler music, more based on production/sound design, because it's what fits better the modern production of film. In the old days, you recorded the orchestra, and that was it. These days there are more cues, with more versions of these cues, more fine tuning, less time, etc. Again, I don't think this is good or bad. It's just the way it is.


----------



## Aaron Sapp

Huge fan of Giachinno. Incredibles, Ratatouille (favorite), Mission Impossible III, Lost, Medal of Honor games.

I mean c'mon - this scene is so tasty:


----------



## Michael Antrum

I don't work in the film industry, but I have heard it said, many times, that film-makers are fiddling with the edit of their films virtually until the last minute. I think this is largely because, these days, it's possible to do so - the technology allows them to edit and tweak virtually until the thing is released. 

As a result I often feel a modular nature to many modern movie scores, and often also to the movies themselves. There are very few modern films that I treasure like some of the gems I fell in love with back in the day, and that goes for the scores too.

Back in my 'golden era', the 80's and before, the music was written after the picture was locked. It's almost as if movies are considered to be a product these days, rather than a piece of art.


----------



## dcoscina

Aaron Sapp said:


> Huge fan of Giachinno. Incredibles, Ratatouille (favorite), Mission Impossible III, Lost, Medal of Honor games.
> 
> I mean c'mon - this scene is so tasty:



That is a terrific movie and score. Probably the last one of Gia's that really knocked my socks off.


----------



## cmillar

dcoscina said:


> I am going to attempt to explain my own personal feelings about the current state of film music, to help clarify things. I grew up listening to music. Classical, jazz, pop, rock, but mostly film scores. At the age of 6, they just resonated with me, and I happened to be a kid at the time when Hollywood Silver Age composers were in full swing. This vast wealth of creativity and technique inspired me to write music myself, at the age of 10. It's been a lifelong passion and all those great scores motivated me to learn and improve. When I was studying composition in the late 80s at university, film music was shunned. Heaven forbid someone wanted to write something tonal... yikes! So I had to use resources like On the Track by Fred Karlin as my practical guide to learning the craft, as well as scoring student films.
> 
> What I'm trying to get at is that great scores inspire others to strive to achieve the same. Whether they do it or not is immaterial. It's the inspiration that is the catalyst. These days, sorry to say, I rarely get that same feeling. For large projects at least, there is more focus on production and less music meat on the bones. I guess that's what is popular so far be it from me to say anything, except, like you, I just don't listen much. I focus on the scores and music that still does inspire and captivate me, though I think it's amazing that a 1912 piece like Le Sacre can still knock me out even having heard it countless times.
> 
> So, as I have tried to do in the last decade, I will chime in only on posts of music that I enjoy and can extol its virtues. The rest, well, who cares what I think anyhow...


I hear you! My background is very similar, and the Fred Karlin book was my guide when I got into composing for indie film makers in the '90's (I was already composing other music by then too).

The thing I love about good film music is that it's an 'art' and a 'science' (of making the technical stuff, hit points, finding the correct overall cadence and flow for a film, having some music material to rework throughout the score in order to make it all hang together and have some kind of subliminal impact on the viewer whether they realize it or not.

To help tell the film makers story. (That's why I do like Zimmer's work and he does service to the overall art of the film)

In one of James Horner's last interviews he touches on that aspect of composing for film... in that to him, it's an 'art form'. He's an artist working in his chosen medium.

Can some of today's most requested composers honestly say that they're in the business because they're artists first and foremost? Probably not very many of them. There are some great 'cut-and-pasters' and those who can mimic whatever temp score is thrown at them. Part of their job.

Have at it.

Nowadays, I'd love to hear the opera that Don Davis wrote sometime, or John William's Cello Concerto. 

Or just revisit all the great film scores from the past that you've mentioned, and in turn, get inspired all over once again to love music.


----------



## Michael Antrum

I remember hearing lot's of comments about the Rogue One score being nothing special, but then I heard that he only had four weeks to complete the thing........


----------



## KEM

zolhof said:


> A sneak peek of the score (recording sessions)




I’ve listened to this clip a few times now and I’m just not really feeling it, Hans literally perfected the sound of Batman, Giacchino is a good composer so this isn’t even a slight towards him at all, I just can’t hear anything other than Hans Zimmer when someone talks about the music of Batman


----------



## JonS

cmillar said:


> I hear you! My background is very similar, and the Fred Karlin book was my guide when I got into composing for indie film makers in the '90's (I was already composing other music by then too).
> 
> The thing I love about good film music is that it's an 'art' and a 'science' (of making the technical stuff, hit points, finding the correct overall cadence and flow for a film, having some music material to rework throughout the score in order to make it all hang together and have some kind of subliminal impact on the viewer whether they realize it or not.
> 
> To help tell the film makers story. (That's why I do like Zimmer's work and he does service to the overall art of the film)
> 
> In one of James Horner's last interviews he touches on that aspect of composing for film... in that to him, it's an 'art form'. He's an artist working in his chosen medium.
> 
> Can some of today's most requested composers honestly say that they're in the business because they're artists first and foremost? Probably not very many of them. There are some great 'cut-and-pasters' and those who can mimic whatever temp score is thrown at them. Part of their job.
> 
> Have at it.
> 
> Nowadays, I'd love to hear the opera that Don Davis wrote sometime, or John William's Cello Concerto.
> 
> Or just revisit all the great film scores from the past that you've mentioned, and in turn, get inspired all over once again to love music.


I love James Horner's music for film but many of his scores can be heard in movie after movie after movie so though I don't know how much time he had to get some of these cues done but he has an awful lot of cut and pasting in his scores from one movie to another.


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> I’ve listened to this clip a few times now and I’m just not really feeling it, Hans literally perfected the sound of Batman, Giacchino is a good composer so this isn’t even a slight towards him at all, I just can’t hear anything other than Hans Zimmer when someone talks about the music of Batman


I think it depends on the cinematic vision of Batman. to me Elfman nailed it with his Herrmannesque score. But to each his/her/their own


----------



## Consona

zolhof said:


> A sneak peek of the score (recording sessions)


----------



## NoamL

@KEM & @Consona are there any "orchestra in a room that's it" scores that blew your socks off recently? This might be a matter of your tastes?


----------



## Consona

NoamL said:


> @KEM & @Consona are there any "orchestra in a room that's it" scores that blew your socks off recently? This might be a matter of your tastes?


Recent scores or listened to recently?


----------



## dcoscina

NoamL said:


> @KEM & @Consona are there any "orchestra in a room that's it" scores that blew your socks off recently? This might be a matter of your tastes?


I like Black Panther. Shazam by Wallfisch was quite fun. Anthony Willis' Promising Young Woman was amazing, especially how the music worked in the film. 

But I've mostly been listening to classic Goldsmith scores. I'm working on a friend's film which needs a style like LEGEND so I'm studying that. Also, ballets like Daphnes et Chloe, The Wooden Prince and Firebird. Plus Le Sacre. You cannot really top those.


----------



## KEM

Consona said:


>



This killed me


----------



## KEM

NoamL said:


> @KEM & @Consona are there any "orchestra in a room that's it" scores that blew your socks off recently? This might be a matter of your tastes?



Strictly orchestral? Definitely not


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Strictly orchestral? Definitely not


yeah I'm also going with this as well. That's why I study the mid 20th-century masterworks.


----------



## Arbee

I appreciate that this thread has voluntarily strayed a little off topic, but is "orchestra in a room that's it" a concept destined for the music museum given the contemporary sonic palette that is available? Not saying that's good or bad, but I believe the future belongs to those who can bring a similar level of artistry and craftsmanship to this new integrated hybrid sonic world.

I agree that nothing "strictly orchestral" has blown me away for quite some time, but is part of that a level of sonic fatigue with the pure orchestral palette? Once I heard The Matrix, HZ Batman etc there was no going back for me, despite my love for "unplugged" orchestral music of the masters. Going even further off track, I suspect that pure jazz mastery and rock guitar gods are heading for the museum in a similar way.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Valid point, @Arbee, but didn't this thread start with a clip of MG and an 'orchestra in the room'?


----------



## KEM

Arbee said:


> I appreciate that this thread has voluntarily strayed a little off topic, but is "orchestra in a room that's it" a concept destined for the music museum given the contemporary sonic palette that is available? Not saying that's good or bad, but I believe the future belongs to those who can bring a similar level of artistry and craftsmanship to this new integrated hybrid sonic world.
> 
> I agree that nothing "strictly orchestral" has blown me away for quite some time, but is part of that a level of sonic fatigue with the pure orchestral palette? Once I heard The Matrix, HZ Batman etc there was no going back for me, despite my love for "unplugged" orchestral music of the masters. Going even further off track, I suspect that pure jazz mastery and rock guitar gods are heading for the museum in a similar way.



Absolutely, and that’s exactly the point I was trying to make, I totally respect strictly orchestral works and that’s what I study to help make myself better at music, but when it comes to the music I personally enjoy listening to I don’t really get much out of strictly orchestral music, there’s so much great musical technology out there now and people are constantly finding new ways to innovate with them and that’s what I want to hear, that’s why I rave about the TENET score so much, it doesn’t sound like anything I’ve heard before and it’s wholly unique, but this is just an orchestra, and although it may be well written, it just doesn’t grab my attention because I know exactly what I’m hearing…


----------



## Arbee

marclawsonmusic said:


> Valid point, @Arbee, but didn't this thread start with a clip of MG and an 'orchestra in the room'?


Indeed it did, but that just made me wonder what I wasn't enjoying about it. Was it the music, or was it the sonic experience, or both? My conclusion was that if "orchestra in the room" alone is going to trigger my music pleasure centre these days, it had better be exceptional.


----------



## Pier

dcoscina said:


> I like Black Panther.


Black Panther has lots of 808 beats and African instruments.

Not sure that counts as "orchestra in a room that's it".


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> Black Panther has lots of 808 beats and African instruments.
> 
> Not sure that counts as "orchestra in a room that's it".



The 808 is the greatest instrument of all time!!


----------



## dcoscina

Pier said:


> Black Panther has lots of 808 beats and African instruments.
> 
> Not sure that counts as "orchestra in a room that's it".


I just listed recent scores that I enjoyed.


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


> I just listed recent scores that I enjoyed.



This track is crazy


----------



## Pier

dcoscina said:


> I just listed recent scores that I enjoyed.


Ah sorry I though you were answering this question.


----------



## dcoscina

Pier said:


> Ah sorry I though you were answering this question.


I can’t find an example sorry to say.


----------



## cmillar

JonS said:


> I love James Horner's music for film but many of his scores can be heard in movie after movie after movie so though I don't know how much time he had to get some of these cues done but he has an awful lot of cut and pasting in his scores from one movie to another.


Yes, but that mostly just happens on the films where he was literally called the 'night before' the deadlline to come and save the movie because the original composer wasn't delivering what they wanted. Horner has talked about that in interviews, where he was called to give some music 'like what he'd done in this other movie', and would literally have just a couple of days to provide an epic score.

For an artist like him who would really research a script, the history of the film's era, the period music of the era of the film, etc., having to 're-produce' himself must have been a real drag when he really wanted to have a few months or more to research what he wanted to do for a film. 

But, when he was just called in to save someone's ass, I'm sure the money was hard to turn down given that he was just asked to basically 'temp' himself.


----------



## Consona

Arbee said:


> I appreciate that this thread has voluntarily strayed a little off topic, but is "orchestra in a room that's it" a concept destined for the music museum given the contemporary sonic palette that is available? Not saying that's good or bad, but I believe the future belongs to those who can bring a similar level of artistry and craftsmanship to this new integrated hybrid sonic world.
> 
> I agree that nothing "strictly orchestral" has blown me away for quite some time, but is part of that a level of sonic fatigue with the pure orchestral palette? Once I heard The Matrix, HZ Batman etc there was no going back for me, despite my love for "unplugged" orchestral music of the masters. Going even further off track, I suspect that pure jazz mastery and rock guitar gods are heading for the museum in a similar way.


When I was 20 and heard Batman Begins, there was not going back.
When I was 30, I've realized fricking Goldsmith, Williams and Horner exist. Now I'm so bored with most of the modern hybrid stuff.
(Goldsmith did hybrid better anyway. He did not have Alan Meyerson, but he had mad symphonic chops. Total Recall or Rambo II > anything and everything these days.)


----------



## dcoscina

Consona said:


> When I was 20 and heard Batman Begins, there was not going back.
> When I was 30, I've realized fricking Goldsmith, Williams and Horner exist. Now I'm so bored with most of the modern hybrid stuff.
> (Goldsmith did hybrid better anyway. He did not have Alan Meyerson, but he had mad symphonic chops. Total Recall or Rambo II > anything and everything these days.)


I think there is plenty of room for both approaches. The style of Nolan's Batman was different from Tim Burton's or even Joel Schumaker (thank God, that series was a joke... poor Goldenthal). I like what Hans did with the Dark knight trilogy. It worked. And truth be told, until we all watch Reeves' new film, we cannot judge whether Giacchino delivered or didn't. It's not fair (and I hold myself here accountable for my over-the-top initial reaction) to judge the merit of an entire score from of a 20 second Twitter sound byte. So, while it doesn't necessarily have the impact on some of us that Mr Giacchino intended, we should still give him the benefit of the doubt. My guess is that the score will fit the mood and feel of the film well. He's proven that on his collaborations with Reeves before. Whether we like it as pure music is, frankly, immaterial. 

Even if that's the case, like you @Consona, I will just continue to spin my Goldsmith scores with utter delight.


----------



## JonS

cmillar said:


> Yes, but that mostly just happens on the films where he was literally called the 'night before' the deadlline to come and save the movie because the original composer wasn't delivering what they wanted. Horner has talked about that in interviews, where he was called to give some music 'like what he'd done in this other movie', and would literally have just a couple of days to provide an epic score.
> 
> For an artist like him who would really research a script, the history of the film's era, the period music of the era of the film, etc., having to 're-produce' himself must have been a real drag when he really wanted to have a few months or more to research what he wanted to do for a film.
> 
> But, when he was just called in to save someone's ass, I'm sure the money was hard to turn down given that he was just asked to basically 'temp' himself.


It's not just James, if you pay careful attention all the top composers do this too. I am sure a lot of it has to do with being given too little time to craft something new and original.

Also, Hollywood is a factory, there is not any art being created in Hollywood. It's this movie meets that movie does another movie. The whole industry rips off itself over and over again. There is nothing any film composer is doing that is art. They may think it is, but it's not.


----------



## KEM

JonS said:


> It's not just James, if you pay careful attention all the top composers do this too. I am sure a lot of it has to do with being given too little time to craft something new and original.
> 
> Also, Hollywood is a factory, there is not any art being created in Hollywood. It's this movie meets that movie does another movie. The whole industry rips off itself over and over again. There is nothing any film composer is doing that is art. They may think it is, but it's not.



TENET IS ART!!!


----------



## Arbee

Maybe we accept that the golden age of music in film is over. Not too much of a stretch to imagine film composers being replaced by music editors armed with modern one button tech tools. I already see composer credits being demoted and harder to find.


----------



## KEM

Arbee said:


> Maybe we accept that the golden age of music in film is over. Not too much of a stretch to imagine film composers being replaced by music editors armed with modern one button tech tools. I already see composer credits being demoted and harder to find.



I wouldn’t go that far, the composer is still a huge part of the film. I’ve seen a lot of worry within the past year or so of people thinking that AI will take over the job of a film composer and I wholeheartedly don’t think that’ll ever happen, the film editor won’t be taking over that job either, we have music editors for a reason, it won’t ever be just one person


----------



## Arbee

KEM said:


> I wouldn’t go that far, the composer is still a huge part of the film. I’ve seen a lot of worry within the past year or so of people thinking that AI will take over the job of a film composer and I wholeheartedly don’t think that’ll ever happen, the film editor won’t be taking over that job either, we have music editors for a reason, it won’t ever be just one person


Point taken, but I wasn't just thinking about AI. Given the amount of comments about continually shrinking timelines and last minute video changes (again aided by video tech), it follows in my mind that taking a composing step out of the process is efficient if "sonic mood effects will do".


----------



## Arbee

Consona said:


> When I was 20 and heard Batman Begins, there was not going back.
> When I was 30, I've realized fricking Goldsmith, Williams and Horner exist. Now I'm so bored with most of the modern hybrid stuff.
> (Goldsmith did hybrid better anyway. He did not have Alan Meyerson, but he had mad symphonic chops. Total Recall or Rambo II > anything and everything these days.)


I hear you, but are these just phases? When we discover mastery of any kind it's easy to become totally immersed and dismiss everything else for a while. I've rediscovered Italian baroque and Beethoven at various points in my life and couldn't tear myself away for months to the exclusion of all else. Same with Led Zeppelin, Oscar Peterson, Michel Colombier, Kiasmos, and.....and.....


----------



## dcoscina

Arbee said:


> I hear you, but are these just phases? When we discover mastery of any kind it's easy to become totally immersed and dismiss everything else for a while. I've rediscovered Italian baroque and Beethoven at various points in my life and couldn't tear myself away for months to the exclusion of all else. Same with Led Zeppelin, Oscar Peterson, Michel Colombier, Kiasmos, and.....and.....


My Goldsmith phase has lasted 40 years now.


----------



## tmhuud

NOTHING. Nothing . Beats. Jerry. Nothing.


----------



## KEM

Give me the absolute best Jerry Goldsmith pieces to check out. I know he’s not gonna be able to come close to Ludwig, but you guys are really hyping him up so I’d like to hear some of his best work


----------



## Jish

KEM said:


> Give me the absolute best Jerry Goldsmith pieces to check out. I know he’s not gonna be able to come close to Ludwig, but you guys are really hyping him up so I’d like to hear some of his best work


----------



## marclawsonmusic

KEM said:


> Give me the absolute best Jerry Goldsmith pieces to check out. I know he’s not gonna be able to come close to Ludwig, but you guys are really hyping him up so I’d like to hear some of his best work


All subjective of course, but here is one of my favorites from Jerry. More on the 'adagio' side of things, it's a nice sweeping romantic piece. The harmonies and movement through various keys / tonal centres keep it interesting as it evolves. He even weaves in the Star Trek theme at a couple of points.


I heard this was the last time an overture was played before the start of a movie in a theatre. Not sure if that is 100% true, but for sure it was a different era in film.


----------



## confusedsheep

KEM said:


> Give me the absolute best Jerry Goldsmith pieces to check out. I know he’s not gonna be able to come close to Ludwig, but you guys are really hyping him up so I’d like to hear some of his best work


i guess in a way you are right... ludwig is hard to beat at his own game...






but Goldsmith is great aswell


----------



## JonS

tmhuud said:


> NOTHING. Nothing . Beats. Jerry. Nothing.


I completely agree!!


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Give me the absolute best Jerry Goldsmith pieces to check out. I know he’s not gonna be able to come close to Ludwig, but you guys are really hyping him up so I’d like to hear some of his best work


One of Jerry’s best cues. This entire score is next level greatness.


----------



## Arbee

Obviously a lot of well deserved love for Goldsmith here. He's a composer I respect enormously while not really enjoying his music personally. The only Goldsmith score I can recall that made me sit up and need to know "who wrote that?!" was Basic Instinct.


----------



## KEM

marclawsonmusic said:


> All subjective of course, but here is one of my favorites from Jerry. More on the 'adagio' side of things, it's a nice sweeping romantic piece. The harmonies and movement through various keys / tonal centres keep it interesting as it evolves. He even weaves in the Star Trek theme at a couple of points.
> 
> 
> I heard this was the last time an overture was played before the start of a movie in a theatre. Not sure if that is 100% true, but for sure it was a different era in film.





dcoscina said:


> One of Jerry’s best cues. This entire score is next level greatness.




Good stuff, I can get down with this, sounds like it'd be great to study for the harmonies and orchestration. Definitely doesn't beat TENET though...


----------



## jeremyr




----------



## KEM

jeremyr said:


>




Is that a sample of a dog barking at 1:07??


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Good stuff, I can get down with this, sounds like it'd be great to study for the harmonies and orchestration. Definitely doesn't beat TENET though...


 as much as I like and respect Goransson, nothing he's written so far gets even close to this...



this is also pretty fantastic. Horrible film but the score... unbelievable


----------



## Robin Thompson

Let's just go for broke here shall we...



But also, this.



And this.



And don't forget this.



And I need to stop now before I clog up this whole thread.


----------



## Arbee

Just going to balance this Goldsmith love fest with this one by Michel Colombier for any young-uns unaware of this master


----------



## KEM

All good stuff, but I’m taking this every time without question!!


----------



## Pier

As much as Goldsmith is a technical genius, a master of the orchestra so to speak, it really all comes down to a subjective feeling.

We're in a different era now. I don't think Goldsmith could have done a better job at Tenet than Ludwig. To put that into perspective, I'm sure in the 70s or 80s some people were arguing that actually Bernard Herrmann was the best film composer that ever existed.

Maybe 30 years from now @KEM will keep arguing Ludwig is still the best composer that has ever existed, while the younger generation doesn't even know who he is.


----------



## prodigalson

Just wanted to throw out there what I think is one of Giacchino's most underrated scores, The Family Stone. It's just pure heart-felt Christmas warmth with a great sense of humour that flirts with, but never really overly indulges in sentimentality.


----------



## dcoscina

Pier said:


> As much as Goldsmith is a technical genius, a master of the orchestra so to speak, it really all comes down to a subjective feeling.
> 
> We're in a different era now. I don't think Goldsmith could have done a better job at Tenet than Ludwig. To put that into perspective, I'm sure in the 70s or 80s some people were arguing that actually Bernard Herrmann was the best film composer that ever existed.
> 
> Maybe 30 years from now @KEM will keep arguing Ludwig is still the best composer that has ever existed, while the younger generation doesn't even know who he is.


Well yes and no. If we are talking about what resonates with our own tastes, yes. If we are trying to establish some kind of objective baseline, so far at least, Goldsmith's body of work and the innovative scores he wrote far exceed anyone writing today, and I think most professionals in LA would concede this. 

Would I declare Goldsmith superior a composer to Stravinsky, Berg or Bartok? No, and from all accounts, we never liked fans putting him up on the mantle either. 

Anyhow back to The Batman. 

Let's see what Giacchino comes up with... when is it supposed to be coming out anyhow??


----------



## dcoscina

Robin Thompson said:


> Let's just go for broke here shall we...
> 
> 
> 
> But also, this.
> 
> 
> 
> And this.
> 
> 
> 
> And don't forget this.
> 
> 
> 
> And I need to stop now before I clog up this whole thread.



Dude the Dress Waltz is definitely one of the best marriages of music to picture. Of course, Goldsmith composed it PRIOR to production as they needed it to be choreographed to.


----------



## Pier

dcoscina said:


> Well yes and no. If we are talking about what resonates with our own tastes, yes. If we are trying to establish some kind of objective baseline, so far at least, Goldsmith's body of work and the innovative scores he wrote far exceed anyone writing today, and I think most professionals in LA would concede this.
> 
> Would I declare Goldsmith superior a composer to Stravinsky, Berg or Bartok? No, and from all accounts, we never liked fans putting him up on the mantle either.


Of course, but what I'm arguing is that ultimately what matters is the subjective experience. The writing itself is a technicality.

For example, I'm sure in the silent film era there were different composers writing at different levels of technical competence. Is this relevant 100 years later? Maybe to some musicologists... but in truth nobody cares because we don't understand that music, culturally and emotionally speaking.

Stravinsky, Bartok, Mozart, etc, are not superior composers because of their writing skills, but because at least some of their music is universal, as all art should strive to be.

It's not only about music. Van Gogh, was clearly technically inferior to his contemporaries (eg: pompier art), and yet today he is one one of the most popular painters from the 19th century.


----------



## Robin Thompson

Pier said:


> Of course, but what I'm arguing is that ultimately what matters is the subjective experience. The writing itself is a technicality.


I don't think we can say one measure inherently "matters" more than any other. It simply depends upon _what_ you're trying to measure.

I do think we should be careful about measuring too much out of context when it comes to judging composers against each other. We're talking about film composers here - their work doesn't exist in a vacuum, it was written to picture. And I maintain that the single biggest reason film music has evolved over the decades is that _movies_ have evolved. They look different, sound different, are cut and paced differently, and that requires a different musical approach.

Take Herrmann's Psycho score. Is it dated? Well, yes and no depending how you look at it. The _movie_ might be dated, but the score still fits it perfectly, and always will. If we were to take out the score and assign Ludwig Göransson to write a replacement, he wouldn't be able to do so in the style we associate him with today. It just wouldn't fit. Likewise, if Jerry Goldmsmith - who delighted in embracing new styles and technology - were still alive today, no doubt he wouldn't be writing in the same idiom as the tracks above. He'd be writing music to fit movies today.

Would a modern Goldsmith be writing better contemporary music than Göransson or Zimmer? I have a feeling that's the real question we're trying to get at here. Alas we'll never know.


----------



## dcoscina

Robin Thompson said:


> I don't think we can say one measure inherently "matters" more than any other. It simply depends upon _what_ you're trying to measure.
> 
> I do think we should be careful about measuring too much out of context when it comes to judging composers against each other. We're talking about film composers here - their work doesn't exist in a vacuum, it was written to picture. And I maintain that the single biggest reason film music has evolved over the decades is that _movies_ have evolved. They look different, sound different, are cut and paced differently, and that requires a different musical approach.
> 
> Take Herrmann's Psycho score. Is it dated? Well, yes and no depending how you look at it. The _movie_ might be dated, but the score still fits it perfectly, and always will. If we were to take out the score and assign Ludwig Göransson to write a replacement, he wouldn't be able to do so in the style we associate him with today. It just wouldn't fit. Likewise, if Jerry Goldmsmith - who delighted in embracing new styles and technology - were still alive today, no doubt he wouldn't be writing in the same idiom as the tracks above. He'd be writing music to fit movies today.
> 
> Would a modern Goldsmith be writing better contemporary music than Göransson or Zimmer? I have a feeling that's the real question we're trying to get at here. Alas we'll never know.


Jerry did streamline his approach after Total Recall because he realized there was no point in competing with 80 tracks of sound FX. I think he would have changed with the times. Some of his later era work in the 90s still shows a great mind at work. The Edge and LA Confidential were two very strong scores. In 1999 he proved that he could still score a blockbuster with The Mummy. 

But for today’s world, sure, the fundamentals of music are not as important as production skills.


----------



## Jish

Robin Thompson said:


> Would a modern Goldsmith be writing better contemporary music than Göransson or Zimmer? I have a feeling that's the real question we're trying to get at here. Alas we'll never know.


It's a very interesting question, and I also agree is perhaps the most substantive point that's really underlying much of the discussion here.

And I would just guess, probably, the answer is likely a 'no'. 

Jerry was deft at evolving and changing with the decades, but the truth is there is just some stuff that a composer of his age likely wouldn't have evolved _to_, given all that he had already done and accomplished, and more importantly possibly, the manner in which it was accomplished.

Much of his best music had a tendency to either have plenty of complex writing in action-heavy sequences, or, melodic heavy writing on any end of the spectrum. But I really don't think he would have found what we are sort of honing to be 'contemporary' film music to be particularly interesting. He was known (like Horner) to be very blunt at times as to exactly what he thought, and I just don't think he would have found alot of the more 'modern' stuff of the last 10-15 years to be all that compelling simply based on how he tended to compose (we all as creative type's carry with us 'values' of our own- these are the very thing's that often can cost us a gig we might otherwise have kept). 

It's really just a drawn out way of saying, that Jerry's musical value's based on his specific age/career-arc would have probably not adapted as well as many a generation younger composer- Austin Wintory adores him (as he should) but his sensibilities are far better suited to alot of modern scoring. I don't think Jerry would have wanted to adapt to the degrees required for most of these project's and would have instead eventually written more privately for himself.


----------



## Robin Thompson

Jish said:


> It's a very interesting question, and I also agree is perhaps the most substantive point that's really underlying much of the discussion here.
> 
> And I would just guess, probably, the answer is likely a 'no'.
> 
> Jerry was deft at evolving and changing with the decades, but the truth is there is just some stuff that a composer of his age likely wouldn't have evolved _to_, given all that he had already done and accomplished, and more importantly possibly, the manner in which it was accomplished.
> 
> Much of his best music had a tendency to either have plenty of complex writing in action-heavy sequences, or, melodic heavy writing on any end of the spectrum. But I really don't think he would have found what we are sort of honing to be 'contemporary' film music to be particularly interesting. He was known (like Horner) to be very blunt at times as to exactly what he thought, and I just don't think he would have found alot of the more 'modern' stuff of the last 10-15 years to be all that compelling simply based on how he tended to compose (we all as creative type's carry with us 'values' of our own- these are the very thing's that often can cost us a gig we might otherwise have kept).
> 
> It's really just a drawn out way of saying, that Jerry's musical value's based on his specific age/career-arc would have probably not adapted as well as many a generation younger composer- Austin Wintory adores him (as he should) but his sensibilities are far better suited to alot of modern scoring. I don't think Jerry would have wanted to adapt to the degrees required for most of these project's and would have instead eventually written more privately for himself.


Yeah you make some good points. I'm inclined to push back a bit on the basis that, as others have said, one of the hallmarks of contemporary music is that it's more textural, and one of the hallmarks of Goldsmith - compared to, say, John Williams - is that he's always been keenly interested in interesting textures. On the other hand, I recall him complaining that the final version of the Alien main title was simple and unsatisfying to write compared to his more melodic original cue. So, who knows. I suspect there would be a place for him today, but perhaps not with Chris Nolan.


----------



## KEM

Robin Thompson said:


> Yeah you make some good points. I'm inclined to push back a bit on the basis that, as others have said, one of the hallmarks of contemporary music is that it's more textural, and one of the hallmarks of Goldsmith - compared to, say, John Williams - is that he's always been keenly interested in interesting textures. On the other hand, I recall him complaining that the final version of the Alien main title was simple and unsatisfying to write compared to his more melodic original cue. So, who knows. I suspect there would be a place for him today, but perhaps not with Chris Nolan.



Definitely not with Chris Nolan, and I’ve had discussions about this with other people on here before, you couldn’t have John Williams score a Nolan film, it just wouldn’t work, does that mean John Williams sucks? Of course not, they’re just different aesthetics, and John Williams is certainly not short of work. I grew up in the era of Hans Zimmer, my favorite artists of all time are Bring Me The Horizon and Kanye West, so I’m obviously going for a much different musical aesthetic than most here


----------



## Pincel

dcoscina said:


> One of Jerry’s best cues. This entire score is next level greatness.



I absolutely adore this! Pure Goldsmith goodness. One can imediately tell it's him, there's no mistaking those rhythmic sensibilities and overall orchestral gymnastics. SO. GOOD.


----------



## dcoscina

I would say I feel badly for contributing to derailing this thread but honestly, a 20 second Twitter clip doesn’t really inspire a lot of discussion aside from speculative posts which we’ve seen here. And a whole lotta goldsmith. Lol.


----------



## dcoscina

Pincel said:


> I absolutely adore this! Pure Goldsmith goodness. One can imediately tell it's him, there's no mistaking those rhythmic sensibilities and overall orchestral gymnastics. SO. GOOD.


Love the trumpet writing in their mid-low range.


----------



## KEM




----------



## handz

Abdulrahman said:


> I've never been a fan of his work. Literally, no music he has done every captured my attention. Sorry, but that is the plain truth!


Weird. He is one of the best “new” composers. He is definitely a big Williams fan but that’s a good thing. His scores are lush and emotional and most importantly “golden hollywood” style. I cant say I dislike any of his works unlike most contemporary composers.


----------



## handz

Loerpert said:


> Interesting to see how much hate there is towards Giacchino. Wonder where it all comes from. I love his scores (Star Wars, Jurassic World, Jojo)


Same here, when I say something against Zimmers boring experimental sound designg score people want to eat me alive 🤡 Taste is changing and Its sad.


----------



## Pier

handz said:


> Taste is changing and Its sad.


Why is that sad?

Change is the only constant.


----------



## handz

Pier said:


> Why is that sad?
> 
> Change is the only constant.


Because the changes are for the worse. 
And in music taste this change is really horrible.


----------



## I like music

I'm late to this party, but what you're asking for would literally take us weeks to do.




KEM said:


> Give me the absolute best Jerry Goldsmith pieces to check out. I know he’s not gonna be able to come close to Ludwig, but you guys are really hyping him up so I’d like to hear some of his best work


----------



## Troels Folmann

Imagine if music didn't change - how colorless our world would be. We'd still be stuck in the same BACH chord progressions ... Wait ... We already are!?


----------



## Pier

handz said:


> Because the changes are for the worse.
> And in music taste this change is really horrible.


Don't worry, the same happened to the generation yours replaced.


----------



## KEM

I love the current state of music!! Music has never been better, and I’m happy to be alive to hear it!!


----------



## handz

Pier said:


> Don't worry, the same happened to the generation yours replaced.


Not true. My generation still had huge variety of music styles and even the stuff that now would be considered absolutely insane and underground was a normal part of popmusic. We also listened to guys from 60-70s a lot. It was part of out culture although that music was made long before we were born. Current generation knows current hiphop and lady gaga kind of music. Only way how majority of 20 yo people know some older bands is because H&M sells T-shirts with them…There is still lot of nice music in different genres being made but they are not in the main music trend. And that’s really not a good thing. 

And well - movie music doesn’t really changed for decades except Zimmer and some of his followers who again after 70s tried to change classical orchestral scores to something new. I would assume as most scores are still traditional most fans and composers still prefer golden orchestral style - yet people seems to hate on Gia here - who without doubt is a great composer in this genre🧐


----------



## KEM

I’ve already watched the trailer about 20 times now, this will be the best Batman film since Nolan’s trilogy, March can’t come soon enough


----------



## nolotrippen

I'm a little late to this party, but I'll just come right out and say it: Michael Giacchino is one of the few current film composers I like. Sure, he cribs a bit of Barry (whether or not it's for The Incredibles), but so be it. And everyone is entitled to his opinion, but mine is right and yours is wrong. And this non-sequitur image should prove it.


----------



## Rossy

Abdulrahman said:


> I've never been a fan of his work. Literally, no music he has done every captured my attention. Sorry, but that is the plain truth!


I know I am late to the party but you didn't like the score for Super 8?


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> I’ve already watched the trailer about 20 times now, this will be the best Batman film since Nolan’s trilogy, March can’t come soon enough





Rossy said:


> I know I am late to the party but you didn't like the score for Super 8?


Heaven forbid people have different tastes in music eh?


----------



## Rossy

dcoscina said:


> Heaven forbid people have different tastes in music eh?


Not at all, I just thought it was a great score and was wondering. no malicious intent, just a question.


----------



## dcoscina

Rossy said:


> Not at all, I just thought it was a great score and was wondering. no malicious intent, just a question.


Like most Gia scores, they work in context. some of us grew up at a time when film music could live outside its cinematic source however. This is where some of us drop off in terms of Gia


----------



## Rossy

dcoscina said:


> Like most Gia scores, they work in context. some of us grew up at a time when film music could live outside its cinematic source however. This is where some of us drop off in terms of Gia


I was born in 1966 and an avid movie fan, just for reference.


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> I’ve already watched the trailer about 20 times now, this will be the best Batman film since Nolan’s trilogy, March can’t come soon enough


The trailer is fantastic!

Hopefully the movie will be just as good.


----------



## Dr.Quest

dcoscina said:


> Like most Gia scores, they work in context. some of us grew up at a time when film music could live outside its cinematic source however. This is where some of us drop off in terms of Gia


The Incredibles, Up, Ratatoulle, Rogue One, Lost... all of these and more are great listening scores. The only one I did not really like was Star Trek. That was awful. No theme. Or what passed for a theme had nothing to do with Star Trek. But neither did the movies so there's that. I rather like the young fellow and think Batman may be quite good. Too soon to say so we wait.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> The trailer is fantastic!
> 
> Hopefully the movie will be just as good.



I am very optimistic about this film, they’ve had a long time to just focus on post-production alone so the finer details and everything will really be put under the microscope and I don’t think they’ll leave any plot holes or bad edits or anything like that, the movie is also said to be a 3 hour long noir thriller which is exactly what I’ve wanted out of a Batman since Nolan’s trilogy ended


----------



## Pier

dcoscina said:


> Like most Gia scores, they work in context. some of us grew up at a time when film music could live outside its cinematic source however. This is where some of us drop off in terms of Gia


Regardless of whether this is good or bad, it makes sense that the language of music in film would become more specialized.

Film music evolved from being almost decoupled from the film in the silent era, to becoming hyper coupled these days to a point where often it doesn't make much sense on its own.


----------



## JohnG

dcoscina said:


> If we are trying to establish some kind of objective baseline, so far at least, Goldsmith's body of work and the innovative scores he wrote far exceed anyone writing today, and I think most professionals in LA would concede this.


Hi David,

While I admire JG enormously, I think James Newton Howard's breadth and technical mastery puts him on the same level as Goldsmith.

If you think about the cell/motif buildup of "Signs," his contributions to the Dark Knight movies (with HZ), his score for "Dave," and the grueling but stupendous (at points) "King Kong," I think he can claim similar breadth as JG. If you throw in "Falling Down," "Grand Canyon," "Treasure Planet," "Dinosaur" or even the "Malificent" scores (not all great movies but great scores), I think he earns an award for "technical mastery" without any doubt.

*Why Not?*

Part of the difference between something as staggering as Goldsmith's "Planet of the Apes" and what we hear today lies in the willingness of anyone to be daring -- by "anyone" I mean studios and the decision-makers on bigger budget films. I wonder if anyone is asking, as apparently JG was, for "the most avant-garde music you can think of?"

*Budgets* -- when you spend $150mm on the movie and $150mm on marketing, you can't afford to have a squib, so you take zero chances on an 'artistic' score. Budgets today for 'big' movies dwarf those of 50-60 years ago, of course.

*International Satisfaction* -- Long ago, the box office proportions from North America vs. Rest of World inverted. I keep hearing that today it's 20-80 or something close.

*Dumb sells* -- Plenty of movies that have simple, kinetic action and not much else succeed well across language and geographic barriers. As an example, think of "The Smurfs," which generated multiples (about 3x) outside the US of the US box office. That doesn't mean that audiences are less sophisticated outside the US, but it does shed light on why studios are not clamouring for art-house scores to go with esoteric movies. There are few of the latter (on the big screen).

*Watching the dailies --* Long ago, movies got made far away from the convenience of Burbank executives. Whether in the desert or an island or on a river somewhere, directors made movies (the insane "Fitzcarraldo," for example) with little or no way for some committee to ride herd on them. Today, everything can be reviewed almost in real time, which leads to caution and hedging.

*Small Screen*

I think I hear the most daring music in lower-budget fare. Not claiming some corporate predilection for avant-garde at Netflix or Amazon Studios, but I do think I hear pretty cool stuff there from time to time. "Black Mirror" alone was pretty fun.


----------



## ryans

Dr.Quest said:


> The only one I did not really like was Star Trek. That was awful. No theme.


I wasn't a huge fan of the films either, or score, but it certainly did have a main theme didn't it? I mean, enough for me to remember on one viewing, I'm humming it right now.


----------



## dcoscina

Pier said:


> Regardless of whether this is good or bad, it makes sense that the language of music in film would become more specialized.
> 
> Film music evolved from being almost decoupled from the film in the silent era, to becoming hyper coupled these days to a point where often it doesn't make much sense on its own.


I'm not indicting anyone writing today. They have different mandates.. just explaining how some of us don't relate to it the way we can with previous era scores. I think no one is saying different...

I worked on a film with a director I've done multiple projects with. She wanted a simple lullaby. I did it but I also varied it and changed instrumentation from the music box to harp and strings. I think it perfectly matched the genesis of the film. But in the end, she preferred the repetitive lullaby and since she was the director that's what ended up in the film. 

So, I get it, believe me....

p.s. I wouldn't use this film in my demo reel...


----------



## Mike Greene

dcoscina said:


> p.s. I wouldn't use this film in my demo reel...


I think we've all got plenty of those.


----------



## dcoscina

Mike Greene said:


> I think we've all got plenty of those.


Amen brother. 
It wasn't a bad film, actually a very good one, but just not to showcase my music abilities.


----------



## Dr.Quest

ryans said:


> I wasn't a huge fan of the films either, or score, but it certainly did have a main theme didn't it? I mean, enough for me to remember on one viewing, I'm humming it right now.


Yes there was a "Theme" but nothing that fit that universe. At least for me. There is nothing heroic or exploring the universe about it. It just meh.


----------



## from_theashes

Instant noticed it


----------



## dcoscina

from_theashes said:


> Instant noticed it



Gotta say there are some talented folks out there in YouTube land. 
I love the way they weave the Williams stuff with the Giacchino "theme"


----------



## KEM

I was looking through some old stuff I've uploaded and found this, I totally forgot I did it lol!! But rewatching it got me very excited for this film, one day I will score a Batman film...


----------



## KEM

This movie looks absolutely incredible


----------



## quickbrownf0x

KEM said:


> This movie looks absolutely incredible



When I saw this trailer my first reaction was 'why'd you show me the whole movie already?'. Don't get me wrong- it looks great and I'll still see it, but yeah...


----------



## quickbrownf0x

from_theashes said:


> Instant noticed it



Same here.


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> This movie looks absolutely incredible



Please don't suck. Please don't suck. Please don't suck.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> Please don't suck. Please don't suck. Please don't suck.



I have a lot of faith in this film. Will it be better than The Dark Knight? Of course not, that’s the greatest movie ever made. Will it be better than every other Marvel and DC film? It surely has the potential judging from the trailers!!


----------



## Cideboy

dcoscina said:


> If there is one difference I hear between today's film composers and the ones from the Silver Age era, it's that the new breed is influenced by film scores whereas Williams, Herrmann, Goldsmith, Horner, etc etc were influenced by mid 20th century composers which informed their work. You can hear Berg and Varese in Planet of the Apes, Korngold in Williams' Superman and Hook, Mahler in Barry's string work, Ravel in Goldsmith's Legend, Prokofiev & Shosty in Horner's work (debatable about HOW much you can hear since some of it is literally copied but that's another topic). Part of it is because directors are temping their movies with other scores rather than classical music. But I also think this cannibalism is due in part to the newer generation not being fluent or cognizant of the modern orchestral masters. I could be wrong but aside from guys like Powell who openly admit they don't listen to film music, it seems to be a prevalent thing.
> 
> Additionally, thanks to modern technology and samples, I wonder how many composers have had time in front of a real group of musicians or have studied orchestration at all. Conrad Pope gave a terrific interview to ScoreCast a few years back discussing the pitfalls of MIDI composing. It was right on the money. It's amazing to hear a real orchestra and see how the different sections work, and even if you aren't given the opportunity to work with one, everybody composing using orchestral samples should seek out local groups to listen to, watch their rehearsals, go to large symphony concerts if you live close to a major city. Everyone can learn more about phrasing, balance, and structure by being exposed to these masterworks. And having a good sense of overall architecture is pivotal in producing a score that is dramatically effective and satisfying. Pieces that move from one idea to the next without any kind of development or variation make it hard to connect with. And I think to a degree this is what Giacchino suffers from- he might have a good idea but it's never really fleshed out the way Williams could take that opening motive from E.T. on piccolo and recap it in the finale with full orchestra which punctuated that film (and score!).


Thanks for this - great advise


----------



## dcoscina

Cideboy said:


> Thanks for this - great advise


Happy to help! I just had a brass group read through some quintet pieces I composed and it was GOLD. I found things I needed to adjust to make the music more performable. Samples cannot do that for us. Yeah, they are always in tune and all that but having another human being perform one's music is a real eye-opening experience. 

A little OT but I do think that the technology can obscure some of the music content at times. It's super beneficial to have the opportunity to get one's music read by musicians whenever possible.


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> I have a lot of faith in this film. Will it be better than The Dark Knight? Of course not, that’s the greatest movie ever made. Will it be better than every other Marvel and DC film? It surely has the potential judging from the trailers!!


I'm calling it now: it will be better than anything DC has released since the Nolan films.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> I'm calling it now: it will be better than anything DC has released since the Nolan films.



Oh 100%, pretty much all the movies DC has put out post-Nolan have been terrible, and at best decent, this movie will blow them out of the water, I’m extremely excited


----------



## KEM

This is probably a “trailer edit” version but it is legit nonetheless


----------



## Pyro861

Ave Maria goes to the imperial march. Holy Batman. What is this?


----------



## KEM

Pyro861 said:


> Ave Maria goes to the imperial march. Holy Batman. What is this?



Wish I could tell ya, I hate to say it but I think the weakest part of this film could end up being the music, the main theme they’ve been playing in all the trailers isn’t bad but it’s not coming close to Zimmer’s, he perfected the sound of Batman, even Elfman’s theme is much more memorable

It might grow on me and in context it might be great but so far I haven’t been impressed


----------



## Pyro861

KEM said:


> Wish I could tell ya, I hate to say it but I think the weakest part of this film could end up being the music, the main theme they’ve been playing in all the trailers isn’t bad but it’s not coming close to Zimmer’s, he perfected the sound of Batman, even Elfman’s theme is much more memorable
> 
> It might grow on me and in context it might be great but so far I haven’t been impressed


I like Zimmer batman too but it's Elfman's theme I get in the head when I think of batman. It's just a matter of taste though. What's the hidden link between Ave maria and batman? We must be missing something...?


----------



## KEM

Pyro861 said:


> I like Zimmer batman too but it's Elfman's theme I get in the head when I think of batman. It's just a matter of taste though. What's the hidden link between Ave maria and batman? We must be missing something...?



It could be a trailer thing like I said before, who knows, it might have a deeper connection to the story but I doubt it, trailers always use pop songs or famous orchestral arrangements mixed with damage loops and pre-written string runs


----------



## Pyro861

This old trailer version had a nice hommage to Elfman's theme at 0m50s.


----------



## Consona

KEM said:


> This movie looks absolutely incredible



Fck this movie. It was supposed to be Affleck's film but WB ousted him out of it. I'm not giving them any of my money.
Jay Oliva said he read the Affleck's script and it was the best Batman story he's ever seen.

Get lost with this cheap cosplay impostor and give me the true Batman back.


----------



## KEM

Consona said:


> Fck this movie. It was supposed to be Affleck's film but WB ousted him out of it. I'm not giving them any of my money.
> Jay Oliva said he read the Affleck's script and it was the best Batman story he's ever seen.
> 
> Get lost with this cheap cosplay impostor and give me the true Batman back.



I remember the early rumors of the Batfleck movie taking place entirely inside of Arkham Asylum during one long night and I think that definitely would’ve been amazing, but I hated that Batfleck was a killer and I also wasn’t particularly a fan of his suit (I think Batman should always have long ears)

But so far this Battinson movie has me more excited than the Batfleck ideas ever did, after his amazing performances in TENET, Good Time, and The Lighthouse I’m a huge fan of Pattinson as an actor and the cinematography and visual aesthetic of this film has looked incredible so far, the Se7en inspiration that’s so heavily present also points to this movie going in the right direction as I really want a dark, detective driven Batman film. No chance it’ll be better than The Dark Knight, after all it is the greatest movie ever made, but this has a ton of amazing potential so far


----------



## Pyro861

KEM said:


> No chance it’ll be better than The Dark Knight, after all it is the greatest movie ever made, but this has a ton of amazing potential so far


I'm not even sure if it's Christopher Nolan's best movie. Memento, the prestige and inception are just as amazing. I still need to watch TENET. That Göransson score sounds super interesting. Wish I could say the same for the new Batman.


----------



## KEM

Pyro861 said:


> I'm not even sure if it's Christopher Nolan's best movie. Memento, the prestige and inception are just as amazing. I still need to watch TENET. That Göransson score sounds super interesting. Wish I could say the same for the new Batman.



The Prestige is criminally underrated, I’ve gotten about 4 or 5 of my close friends to watch it and all of them came back and said it was among the greatest movies they’ve ever seen, truly an incredible film that almost no one even knows about

And you must watch TENET, I mean, I know I’m known around these parts as the biggest TENET/Göransson fanboy ever but seriously, it really is that good, easily my favorite score of all time, that’s why I remade so much of it lol


----------



## ZenBYD

Oh man The Prestige is so brilliant. it flew under the radar, but it's just got the best twist and cast. Bowie as Tesla... c'mon. 

Soundtrack is kinda moody ambiences... very different though not that interesting away from the movie. but, i can't fault the film.. everything is first rate: sound, cinematography, script, cast, music, visual effects, dub mix, grading, editing... a masterclass in film making.


----------



## KEM

KEM said:


> Wish I could tell ya, I hate to say it but I think the weakest part of this film could end up being the music, the main theme they’ve been playing in all the trailers isn’t bad but it’s not coming close to Zimmer’s, he perfected the sound of Batman, even Elfman’s theme is much more memorable
> 
> It might grow on me and in context it might be great but so far I haven’t been impressed



It’s almost 5am and I’m still up, I was thinking about Batman (as I tend to do) and I can’t believe I totally forgot about the Goldenthal scores!! Sure, the Schumacher films are absolutely terrible, but they hold a very special place in my heart, those were such an important part of my childhood, I watched them on VHS almost everyday and I actually wore a Batman costume all year round, I was Batman obsessed back then and that’s definitely carried on into my adult life. Even though the movies themselves were terrible I actually quite like the Goldenthal scores, and I know Hans himself has said those are his favorite Batman scores actually


----------



## KEM

ZenBYD said:


> Oh man The Prestige is so brilliant. it flew under the radar, but it's just got the best twist and cast. Bowie as Tesla... c'mon.
> 
> Soundtrack is kinda moody ambiences... very different though not that interesting away from the movie. but, i can't fault the film.. everything is first rate: sound, cinematography, script, cast, music, visual effects, dub mix, grading, editing... a masterclass in film making.



100%, The Prestige really is a masterpiece

I had one of my good friends watch it not even two months ago, and as soon as he finished it he immediately called me and was like “dudeeeee…” and he had that tone of voice where I could just tell his entire mind was blown and he was questioning reality lol, my best friend was in the car with me at the time and I’d had him watch it about a year ago right around the release of TENET and when I told him our other friend was calling me to talk about The Prestige the three of us had a probably 20 minute conversation about his incredible of a movie it is, and just how kind blowing that twist/reveal is, and all the crazy plot points and threads the movie has

I could go on and on about The Prestige, it is THAT good


----------



## J-M

Eager to hear Mr. Giacchino's the score! I hope (well, don't I always) that the film will be good...I've yet to see a Batman film that hits all the right notes for me!


----------



## Consona

Anyway. #BoycottWB


----------



## KEM

Consona said:


> Anyway. #BoycottWB




WB does suck but that doesn’t mean I’m not watching The Batman


----------



## ZenBYD

I'll be curious to hear what Giacchino comes up with here... he's so known for bright, uplifting melody and themes and lots of clever detail, yet the Batman films went so dark under Nolan (in a good way). the trailer sounds super generic which gives nothing away to the final score of course... looking forward to it! I haven't seen a film in theatres for ages!!


----------



## KEM

ZenBYD said:


> I'll be curious to hear what Giacchino comes up with here... he's so known for bright, uplifting melody and themes and lots of clever detail, yet the Batman films went so dark under Nolan (in a good way). the trailer sounds super generic which gives nothing away to the final score of course... looking forward to it! I haven't seen a film in theatres for ages!!



His main theme has been showcased in all of the trailers so far, it’s not bad by any means, it is quite catchy and sounds like it can be pretty versatile as far as it sounding big and heroic or quiet and stealthy, but it just isn’t nearly as interesting as Hans’ Batman motifs


----------



## prodigalson

KEM said:


> it’s not bad by any means, it is quite catchy


John Williams thought so too...


----------



## KEM

prodigalson said:


> John Williams thought so too...



Why must I keep hearing that name?!


----------



## quickbrownf0x

KEM said:


> ...No chance it’ll be better than The Dark Knight, after all it is the greatest movie ever made...


Ehr... it's a great movie, but the _best ever_?


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Hollywood is sooooooo conservative, I’m tired of the lack of new ideas, voices.


----------



## KEM

quickbrownf0x said:


> Ehr... it's a great movie, but the _best ever_?




Easily!! Those ScreenRant videos are very funny though I will admit


----------



## Consona

KEM said:


> WB does suck but that doesn’t mean I’m not watching The Batman


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

KEM said:


> This is probably a “trailer edit” version but it is legit nonetheless



Can confirm this one has been heavily trailerized


----------



## KEM

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Can confirm this one has been heavily trailerized



I knew it…


----------



## KEM

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> I know this track and all I can say it that is never should have landed on YouTube! The mashup isn't a part of the score.



Thank god for that lol

And the track was ripped from the European Oreo website they were doing that batcave promo on, tons of people uploaded it so there’s no way it’s going away now


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

KEM said:


> Thank god for that lol
> 
> And the track was ripped from the European Oreo website they were doing that batcave promo on, tons of people uploaded it so there’s no way it’s going away now


Yes, I realized that Oreo thing afterwards, so this is finally a legit use.


----------



## KEM

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Yes, I realized that Oreo thing afterwards, so this is finally a legit use.



They probably didn’t want it uploaded to YouTube since it was supposed to be a region locked promo thing, but you know how these things go, once it’s out somewhere it’s out everywhere haha


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## KEM

muziksculp said:


>




Finally!! I’ve been waiting on an official single, I’m about to listen to it, very excited!!


----------



## Robin Thompson

muziksculp said:


>



That's... got a fair amount of Morricone in it. A Fistful of Batarangs?


----------



## KEM

Here’s the YouTube link as well:


----------



## KEM

Just finished my first listen, definitely not bad, I am becoming quite a big fan of the main motif, it’s very catchy and I find it stuck in my head all the time, the emotional parts throughout most of the track aren’t bad but I don’t know how they’ll fit the tone of this movie just from watching the trailers

That being said though, it’s not even close to Zimmer’s Batman themes


----------



## Hans-Peter

Very disappointing. I was one of the optimists reminding others that Giacchino did a great job in LOST and The Incredibles.

But this track is an atrocity. It showcases bad writing from A to Z. Just consider the chordal progressions, which are at the level of any 6 year-old toying around on the grand (if I can speak for myself, at least). The orchestration is mediocre, at best. And don't get me started on the tone. This has absolutely nothing to do with Batman. If that track is any indication for the tone of the movie, then I can write off Batman films for the next 10 years.

I'm currently teaching at two universities courses on film music. In one of them, I have students focus on the Batman franchise. Giacchino's score is certainly going to cause discussion, but an analysis does not seem warranted from what we have heard so far.

What's even worse: All this is coming from a SERIOUS Batman nerd. I feel an incredibly deep connection to the Burton-movies (well, my birth year is 1986, so no wonder) as well as Begins and The Dark Knight Rises. And then there is the great Animated Series - even Beware the Batman, which is incredibly underrated (apart from the ridiculous villains, it was a great series). I love many incarnations in the comics (my favourite being Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth) and appreciate the manifoldness of the character. So, of course, when I hear somebody truly f****** up on Batman, it hurts me even more. And this overly sentimental c*** ... oh my. Anyway, if this is any indication for the movie, I might watch it once (perhaps on streaming) but never again. Some movies are better unseen. From the sound of it, The Batman might be worse than Batman & Robin (1998), which at least features a stellar score by Goldenthal and apart from that *can* be somewhat entertaining for its campy elements and the terrible acting (*Schwarzenegger shouting when falling into the cryo pit* lol - "ööhhh ähhhh uuurrggghhh"), provided there is enough vodka in the cupboard.

Really, all the time Giacchino and Reeves had on their hands (thanks to the pandemic) and this is what they come up with? Overly sentimental, simplistic straight chords without any rhythmic intricacies and motivic development?

Apparently, COVID infections do not only affect the sense of taste in the olfactory but in the auditory modalities, too. Otherwise I cannot explain how people can like this joke.

Sorry for the rant. I'm just very disappointed.


----------



## Consona

KEM said:


> Here’s the YouTube link as well:



So Reeves stole this film from Affleck and Giacchino stole JXL's Batman v Superman's Batman theme chord progression for this theme. Wow, ok. What a bunch of losers.

Also, this is the most generic Batman theme ever. Shirley Walker's theme is so superior to this snorefest. Elfman's, Goldenthal's, Zimmer's and JXL's, all way better.


----------



## KEM

Consona said:


> So Reeves stole this film from Affleck and Giacchino stole JXL's Batman v Superman's Batman theme chord progression for this theme. Wow, ok. What a bunch of losers.
> 
> Also, this is the most generic Batman theme ever. Shirley Walker's theme is so superior to this snorefest. Elfman's, Goldenthal's, Zimmer's and JXL's, all way better.



You really hate everything about this movie huh lol


----------



## Satorious

I'll reserve judgement until I see it in the film, but I find most modern scoring only works in the film and rarely works as a standalone piece on it's own. I think that is true with both this and Zimmer's music (sorry KEM) - the older scores from Goldenthal, Elfman, Walker (and even Hefti/Riddle) are infinitely more memorable/evocative and a lot less generic - they work in the film + as standalone pieces.


----------



## jeremyr

Robin Thompson said:


> That's... got a fair amount of Morricone in it. A Fistful of Batarangs?


I was thinking more Poledouris. The harmonies kind of remind me of Farewell to the King (a track called Flare of Youth).


----------



## Robin Thompson

I guess I meant more the instrumentation. The sliding steel guitars. The tubular bells. The trumpet ornaments. Even the rhythm the whole thing is built on has a cowboyish off-kilter jauntiness. The whole thing just screams spaghetti western to me. All it needs is a bit of harmonica and I could hear the spurs jangling on Pattinson's bat-boots.

I don't think I like it. But it's certainly a choice.


----------



## KEM

I’ll reserve my judgement until the entire film is out so I can hear how it works in context, but no matter what it will NEVER be better than this


----------



## AlexRuger

I hated what I was hearing in the trailers, and was in agreement with some others in this thread that maybe the weakest part of this movie will be the score, but I'm actually really liking parts of that single. Note that I'm generally pretty critical of Giacchino (which is still very true as you will see).

The i-bVI-bIII-bVII chord progression is pretty tired, yes, actually quite reminiscent of a lot of Lord of the Rings at parts, but the piece moves and breathes and, pardon the pun, is a breath of fresh air. The straight V-i cadences are almost corny in a good way -- played as delicately as they are, I imagine those bits are touching on the Batman/Catwoman relationship. I dig the textures and the instrumentation too. I can see it adding a bit of color to what so far appears to be an otherwise pretty monochromatic film (also in a good way). I really, really like everything that isn't the actual Batman "theme" -- far and away the weakest part.

I get what he's going for, but it doesn't really work for me. It kinda just feels like Giacchino muted the melody and left the riff -- the riff works, but without a melody or any other counterpoint, the minimalism results more in annoyance than anything else. 

HZ and JNH's uber-minimalist take works beautifully because it's doing a more wandering, searching thing, and actually has a point of resolution that you're aching for (especially in Begins) when they _finally _hit that bVI chord. The execution is brilliant -- musically, mix and production-wise, to picture...the whole thing just nails it. Giacchino's minimalist riff is more about a driving thing, angry and forward-marching, and so it appears the point is to hit you over the head until you like it. Perhaps that's the point, a la Zack de la Rocha screaming "fuck you I won't do what you tell me" for 2 minutes straight -- first it's awesome, then it's annoying, then it's _really _awesome. But so far I'm not really getting that. There's no sense of resolution or anticipation. Just repetition, hoping that you glean some profundity out of it in time.

I don't know. Really rooting for this film and I genuinely want to like a Giacchino score that isn't The Incredibles. Maybe it'll work better to picture. But my sense from the trailers thus far is that this movie really seems like it'll need a _lack _of music in a lot of places so as to hit just right...both the dialogue and the action scenes seem like they could benefit from an in-your-face sense of sterility. I'm worried that this score will go the other way and just get too damn big and over-scored, music blaring. Couple that with such a (nearly literally) one-note main riff...eh. Would not be good.

I suppose I'll withhold judgement, as always, until I see the actual thing. So far it's kinda 50/50 for me.


----------



## KEM

AlexRuger said:


> I hated what I was hearing in the trailers, and was in agreement with some others in this thread that maybe the weakest part of this movie will be the score, but I'm actually really liking parts of that single. Note that I'm generally pretty critical of Giacchino (which is still very true as you will see).
> 
> The i-bVI-bIII-bVII chord progression is pretty tired, yes, actually quite reminiscent of a lot of Lord of the Rings at parts, but the piece moves and breathes and, pardon the pun, is a breath of fresh air. The straight V-i cadences are almost corny in a good way -- played as delicately as they are, I imagine those bits are touching on the Batman/Catwoman relationship. I dig the textures and the instrumentation too. I can see it adding a bit of color to what so far appears to be an otherwise pretty monochromatic film (also in a good way). I really, really like everything that isn't the actual Batman "theme" -- far and away the weakest part.
> 
> I get what he's going for, but it doesn't really work for me. It kinda just feels like Giacchino muted the melody and left the riff -- the riff works, but without a melody or any other counterpoint, the minimalism results more in annoyance than anything else.
> 
> HZ and JNH's uber-minimalist take works beautifully because it's doing a more wandering, searching thing, and actually has a point of resolution that you're aching for (especially in Begins) when they _finally _hit that bVI chord. The execution is brilliant -- musically, mix and production-wise, to picture...the whole thing just nails it. Giacchino's minimalist riff is more about a driving thing, angry and forward-marching, and so it appears the point is to hit you over the head until you like it. Perhaps that's the point, a la Zack de la Rocha screaming "fuck you I won't do what you tell me" for 2 minutes straight -- first it's awesome, then it's annoying, then it's _really _awesome. But so far I'm not really getting that. There's no sense of resolution or anticipation. Just repetition, hoping that you glean some profundity out of it in time.
> 
> I don't know. Really rooting for this film and I genuinely want to like a Giacchino score that isn't The Incredibles. Maybe it'll work better to picture. But my sense from the trailers thus far is that this movie really seems like it'll need a _lack _of music in a lot of places so as to hit just right...both the dialogue and the action scenes seem like they could benefit from an in-your-face sense of sterility. I'm worried that this score will go the other way and just get too damn big and over-scored, music blaring. Couple that with such a (nearly literally) one-note main riff...eh. Would not be good.
> 
> I suppose I'll withhold judgement, as always, until I see the actual thing. So far it's kinda 50/50 for me.



Well said, the one thing we really differ on is that I actually LOVE that main riff, it’s something that could easily translate to something like an 8 string guitar, synthesizer, orchestra, etc. and it loops very well, it’s been stuck in my head for a long time now which I think is a good sign that it’s doing it’s job right. I come from the metal world so I’ve always been a bigger fan of chuggy riffs than sweeping melodies or emotional harmonies, so it really gets me hyped up

But aside from that I totally agree with your assessment, and I’m reserving my final opinions for when I see the film, which is (finally, thank god) not that far away


----------



## AlexRuger

KEM said:


> Well said, the one thing we really differ on is that I actually LOVE that main riff, it’s something that could easily translate to something like an 8 string guitar, synthesizer, orchestra, etc. and it loops very well, it’s been stuck in my head for a long time now which I think is a good sign that it’s doing it’s job right. I come from the metal world so I’ve always been a bigger fan of chuggy riffs than sweeping melodies or emotional harmonies, so it really gets me hyped up
> 
> But aside from that I totally agree with your assessment, and I’m reserving my final opinions for when I see the film, which is (finally, thank god) not that far away


The riff is fine and is a nice first/primary element. I just think it needs some sort of melody, or even some sort of countering element -- a secondary rhythmic thing, something like that. Anything, really.


----------



## KEM

AlexRuger said:


> The riff is fine and is a nice first/primary element. I just think it needs some sort of melody, or even some sort of countering element -- a secondary rhythmic thing, something like that. Anything, really.



Fair point, I could definitely hear a horn line or string ostinato over it, it has the space for it, maybe in the film it’ll have other elements added, we’ll know soon enough


----------



## dcoscina

It would have been cool to do a retrograde version of the Dies Irae or work it into the theme. Plenty of portent and ominousness in that.... Goldenthal worked it into Demolition Man in 1993.

And I agree with the critics here. The middle section doesn't sound like a Batman theme. The chords are simple and generic- the progression is about as vanilla as can be and not at all compelling. The intro/outro which I still think is a riff on Chopin's Funeral March could have been developed into a cool theme but, like he's demonstrated time and time again, Gia does not have the technical facility to work in larger forms. Someone like Horner or Goldenthal could... I would have loved to see a bold scoring choice like John Corigliano for this project but good luck with that. His last score, the amazing 
Edge of Darkness, was chucked in favor of a bland Howard Shore replacement. Hollywood doesn't want really great music anymore... mostly just aural wallpaper that doesn't distract from the actors, sound FX and spectacle.


----------



## KEM

I wish it was Ludwig Göransson, I need an ultra dark Batman movie with a Ludwig score


----------



## KEM

First real glimpse at a full scene


----------



## dylanmixer

This is one of the most negative threads I've ever seen on VI-Control.


----------



## KEM

dylanmixer said:


> This is one of the most negative threads I've ever seen on VI-Control.



To be fair I think everyone seems to be really excited for the movie itself, but the music has left a bit to be desired, I don’t think people are being overtly negative and not giving a chance but just giving their honest criticism of it


----------



## jononotbono

I like music said:


> I liked Giacchino in Lost.


His music in LOST is amazing. I wish I could write like him. Shit, I might have to rewatch LOST again now I'm thinking about it. Love it!


----------



## tmhuud

Hollywood producers want their ancillary rights.


----------



## dcoscina

Watertower released the single today. I have to change my opinion. Listening in better quality and hearing the sonic details, I think this is quite nicely done. Yeah, the descending minor third can get a little repetitive but the way it builds is not bad. The middle section with the smaller string group is a nice touch. I like that it's mostly acoustic sounding with only a little bit of electronics for additional color.


----------



## dcoscina

jononotbono said:


> His music in LOST is amazing. I wish I could write like him. Shit, I might have to rewatch LOST again now I'm thinking about it. Love it!


For LOST, study Goldsmith's early work. There is a lot there that Gia picked up, at least as inspiration.


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


> Watertower released the single today. I have to change my opinion. Listening in better quality and hearing the sonic details, I think this is quite nicely done. Yeah, the descending minor third can get a little repetitive but the way it builds is not bad. The middle section with the smaller string group is a nice touch. I like that it's mostly acoustic sounding with only a little bit of electronics for additional color.




They released this days ago, I posted it back on Friday as soon as it came out. Also I think you mean major third


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> They released this days ago, I posted it back on Friday as soon as it came out. Also I think you mean major third


typo... yeah. it's a i-flatVI


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


> typo... yeah. it's a i-flatVI



I can’t remember if I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts in this thread but that has been a stable of almost all the Batman scores, Elfman, Zimmer, and Now Giacchino have all used it prominently, I guess that’s just the sound of Batman at this point


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> I can’t remember if I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts in this thread but that has been a stable of almost all the Batman scores, Elfman, Zimmer, and Now Giacchino have all used it prominently, I guess that’s just the sound of Batman at this point


it's a pretty standard progression, been used for eons. Goldenthal was the only one who didn't use it a lot. He did the i-vi-i which is a variation on the i-bVI-i


----------



## Dr.Quest

dcoscina said:


> Someone like Horner or Goldenthal could... I would have loved to see a bold scoring choice like John Corigliano for this project but good luck with that. His last score, the amazing
> Edge of Darkness, was chucked in favor of a bland Howard Shore replacement.


I have to agree that I was disappointed in this theme. But Reeves says it was created back before there was any footage and he loves it so there that. I'm curious about your choice of John Corigliano.I didn't know him so I listened to his score Edge of Darkness and it was good. But i don't hear him doing Batman from that. He's only done 4 movies. Why do you think he would be a good choice? Goldenthal could do one that would be killer if he was into it but he's already had a bad Bat experience. I think Nathan Johnson might be interesting. He turned in an nice noirish score for Nightmare Alley that I like.


----------



## dcoscina

Dr.Quest said:


> I have to agree that I was disappointed in this theme. But Reeves says it was created back before there was any footage and he loves it so there that. I'm curious about your choice of John Corigliano.I didn't know him so I listened to his score Edge of Darkness and it was good. But i don't hear him doing Batman from that. He's only done 4 movies. Why do you think he would be a good choice? Goldenthal could do one that would be killer if he was into it but he's already had a bad Bat experience. I think Nathan Johnson might be interesting. He turned in an nice noirish score for Nightmare Alley that I like.


I think a concert composer might bring an interesting dimension to this character. But it would have to be someone with some film acumen of course and Corigliano has that.


----------



## KEM

Concert composers are still a thing? I thought that was a dead art form…

Anyways, I’d pick Ludwig as my #1 choice for a Batman film


----------



## KEM

This new tv spot looks incredible, and even though it’s kind of generic trailer music I love that synth arp, that’s what I was hoping the actual score would be along the lines of


----------



## dylanmixer

KEM said:


> Concert composers are still a thing? I thought that was a dead art form…
> 
> Anyways, I’d pick Ludwig as my #1 choice for a Batman film


As much as I love Ludwig, I feel like he would be a bad choice on this particular take on Batman.


----------



## KEM

I’m just excited that we finally get emo Batman, I hope there’s a scene of him chasing down criminals in the batmobile with some Bring Me The Horizon playing on the radio


----------



## Consona

Man, fck this sh!t, the more I read about this, the more I hate this flick.

Affleck's film was a Bondian action film set in Arkham Asylum! WB, Reeves and Johns pushed Affleck out of this project... because their petty reasons... Man I'm mad as hell.


----------



## KEM

Consona said:


> Man, fck this sh!t, the more I read about this, the more I hate this flick.
> 
> Affleck's film was a Bondian action film set in Arkham Asylum! WB, Reeves and Johns pushed Affleck out of this project... because their petty reasons... Man I'm mad as hell.




Give it a chance, it looks amazing from the trailers, you might be very surprised by the quality of this film


----------



## Consona

KEM said:


> Give it a chance, it looks amazing from the trailers, you might be very surprised by the quality of this film


I'll probably give it a chance, but I definitely won't give any of my money to WB.

Those mofos literally took a director to do Affleck's film, who was not interested in Affleck's film. Unbelievable b!tches. Affleck himself welcomed him, not knowing the plan is to oust him out.


----------



## KEM

Consona said:


> I'll probably give it a chance, but I definitely won't give any of my money to WB.
> 
> Those mofos literally took a director to do Affleck's film, who was not interested in Affleck's film. Unbelievable b!tches. Affleck himself welcomed him, not knowing the plan is to oust him out.




Warner Bros does suck (hence why Nolan left with no hesitation), but I’ll be the first to admit that I’ll gladly pay for anything involving Batman lol


----------



## G_Erland

Ah, to be younger. I have to say I find the music quite interesting, contextually the smaller acoustics and pleasing approach is what seems new. The trailer i think sells it very differently to how that scene feels, i want to see how the string theme goes with this aestethic. Might be rather cool.


----------



## KEM

For what it’s worth pretty much everyone I know hated Batman v Superman and it left a bad enough taste in their mouths that they didn’t even care about seeing a solo Batman movie with Affleck, personally I liked it and would’ve gladly taken a solo Batfleck movie and probably loved it but oh well, too late now. I’ve actually never seen a Matt Reeves film before but I do love Robert Pattinson (TENET!!) so his casting got me excited, and the trailers and tv spots and everything have just been incredible, seriously this movie looks so good and I really don’t even care about any other movie coming out because this has just overshadowed everything


----------



## Robin Thompson

Consona said:


> I'll probably give it a chance, but I definitely won't give any of my money to WB.
> 
> Those mofos literally took a director to do Affleck's film, who was not interested in Affleck's film. Unbelievable b!tches. Affleck himself welcomed him, not knowing the plan is to oust him out.



Can I ask what your sources are for your repeated assertions that Affleck was pushed out? Literally everything I've ever read about the situation suggested Affleck left for personal reasons. Certainly I find it hard to believe Reeves is powerful enough to oust someone of his stature.


----------



## Montisquirrel

dcoscina said:


> Watertower released the single today. I have to change my opinion. Listening in better quality and hearing the sonic details, I think this is quite nicely done. Yeah, the descending minor third can get a little repetitive but the way it builds is not bad. The middle section with the smaller string group is a nice touch. I like that it's mostly acoustic sounding with only a little bit of electronics for additional color.



I like it. I can't help it but he second half reminds me alot of the Imperial March.


----------



## Consona

Robin Thompson said:


> Can I ask what your sources are for your repeated assertions that Affleck was pushed out? Literally everything I've ever read about the situation suggested Affleck left for personal reasons. Certainly I find it hard to believe Reeves is powerful enough to oust someone of his stature.


It was not just Reeves. It was mainly Warner Bros (who hate everything Snyder, and Affleck is the SnyderVerse Batman) and Geoff Johns.

Affleck wrote, according to Jay Oliva who has read it, the best Batman film script ever. After some weeks, there's news Geoff Johns is coming to "help Affleck with his screenplay". Just a total bullshit, the script was already finished and great. After some weeks, there's news Affleck is not directing anymore, Reeves will do the film. After some weeks, there's news Affleck leaves the project.

Affleck hated Justice League reshoots, made by Geoff Johns and Joss Whedon, which led to that shitty 2017 Justice League film. Which is now canon for all the new DCEU Warner Bros' films, even thought Zack Snyder's JL was WAAAY superior and people love it way more than the 2017 movie. WB are just hard-distancing themselves from SnyderVerse as much as they can (using the new Flash film to redo the whole timeline, bringing Michael Keaton as Batman back! WB are just desperate to replace Affleck by any means, doing nostalgia baits and "multiverse" and whatnot). So now they have the originally Affleck's project without Affleck and Keaton being the main Batman in DCEU instead of Affleck.

In the recent interview, Affleck said his drinking was due to his relationship with Jennifer Garner, not because of the films, like WB apologists are trying to suggest. "Affleck does not want to be Batman anymore! Leave the man alone!" Yet, Affleck, as Bruce Wayne/Batman, was the first one who returned to shoot additional scenes for Zack Snyder when he was finishing his cut of Justice League.

Warner Bros literally made a NEW facade to promote their DC films, literally using the retro Superman from 40 years old films (RIP mr. Reeve, sorry about WB using you for their abject petty goals) instead of Henry Cavill and the retro Batman from 30 years old films instead of Ben Affleck, non-SnyderVerse version of Harley Quinn, non-SnyderVerse Wonder Woman and non-SnyderVerse Aquaman images.





Affleck had a contract for one more film. So he's in the new Flash movie, most probably getting erased from the timeline, since Keaton is replacing him.
The SnyderVerse Flash director Rick Famuyiwa "left the project" and WB hired a new guy to make a new version for them with a completely different story.

Meanwhile WB are giving James Gunn, whose TSS movie lost them $200m, more and more HBO DC shows to take everything further and further from SnyderVerse. And there's a new Batgirl film (Batgirl was supposed to apprear in the Affleck's Batman film!), where the Batman will again be Keaton instead of Affleck. And just a few days ago, there was an HBO DC show, runned by Geoff Johns, who literally used parts of the Affleck's script. (He also phone called Ray Fisher, the Snyder's Cyborg actor, just to tell him he's doing his own Cyborg and he'll never be Cyborg again. Ray Fisher himself said that. Johns is a piece of sh*t guy who wants to be Kevin Feige of DC films and does everything in his power to make that happen. He brought Joss Whedon to totally redo Snyder's JL, who was later accused of abusing his power, threatening people, etc., which was confirmed by several actors like Ray Fisher, Gal Gadot, Jason Momoa, and Affleck is said to tell all these guys during the reshoots to leave the project (so it must have been vile). Affleck himself said in several interviews JL reshoots were like the worst experience he's ever had making a movie.)

WB are literally lying about Zack Snyder's Justice League and Gunn's movie's and shows results, to paint Snyder's JL as a failure (it was the most sucessful streaming film of all times) and to make their Gunn efforst look like they are breaking records (like they said the trailer for his movie made 150 million views in 2 days, which was totally fabricated, or that his DC show is more viewed than Witcher season 2, which is also factually false).

It's a piece of sh!t company that I won't support ever, until someone fires all these guys like Johns, Hamada, Emmerich, Sarnoff, etc. There's this Discovery merger soon so we'll see what happens.


----------



## KEM

Consona said:


> It was not just Reeves. It was mainly Warner Bros (who hate everything Snyder, and Affleck is the SnyderVerse Batman) and Geoff Johns.
> 
> Affleck wrote, according to Jay Oliva who has read it, the best Batman film script ever. After some weeks, there's news Geoff Johns is coming to "help Affleck with his screenplay". Just a total bullshit, the script was already finished and great. After some weeks, there's news Affleck is not directing anymore, Reeves will do the film. After some weeks, there's news Affleck leaves the project.
> 
> Affleck hated Justice League reshoots, made by Geoff Johns and Joss Whedon, which led to that shitty 2017 Justice League film. Which is now canon for all the new DCEU Warner Bros' films, even thought Zack Snyder's JL was WAAAY superior and people love it way more than the 2017 movie. WB are just hard-distancing themselves from SnyderVerse as much as they can (using the new Flash film to redo the whole timeline, bringing Michael Keaton as Batman back! WB are just desperate to replace Affleck by any means, doing nostalgia baits and "multiverse" and whatnot). So now they have the originally Affleck's project without Affleck and Keaton being the main Batman in DCEU instead of Affleck.
> 
> In the recent interview, Affleck said his drinking was due to his relationship with Jennifer Garner, not because of the films, like WB apologists are trying to suggest. "Affleck does not want to be Batman anymore! Leave the man alone!" Yet, Affleck, as Bruce Wayne/Batman, was the first one who returned to shoot additional scenes for Zack Snyder when he was finishing his cut of Justice League.
> 
> Warner Bros literally made a NEW facade to promote their DC films, literally using the retro Superman from 40 years old films (RIP mr. Reeve, sorry about WB using you for their abject petty goals) instead of Henry Cavill and the retro Batman from 30 years old films instead of Ben Affleck, non-SnyderVerse version of Harley Quinn, non-SnyderVerse Wonder Woman and non-SnyderVerse Aquaman images.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Affleck had a contract for one more film. So he's in the new Flash movie, most probably getting erased from the timeline, since Keaton is replacing him.
> The SnyderVerse Flash director Rick Famuyiwa "left the project" and WB hired a new guy to make a new version for them with a completely different story.
> 
> Meanwhile WB are giving James Gunn, whose TSS movie lost them $200m, more and more HBO DC shows to take everything further and further from SnyderVerse. And there's a new Batgirl film (Batgirl was supposed to apprear in the Affleck's Batman film!), where the Batman will again be Keaton instead of Affleck. And just a few days ago, there was an HBO DC show, runned by Geoff Johns, who literally used parts of the Affleck's script. (He also phone called Ray Fisher, the Snyder's Cyborg actor, just to tell him he's doing his own Cyborg and he'll never be Cyborg again. Ray Fisher himself said that. Johns is a piece of sh*t guy who wants to be Kevin Feige of DC films and does everything in his power to make that happen. He brought Joss Whedon to totally redo Snyder's JL, who was later accused of abusing his power, threatening people, etc., which was confirmed by several actors like Ray Fisher, Gal Gadot, Jason Momoa, and Affleck is said to tell all these guys during the reshoots to leave the project (so it must have been vile). Affleck himself said in several interviews JL reshoots were like the worst experience he's ever had making a movie.)
> 
> WB are literally lying about Zack Snyder's Justice League and Gunn's movie's and shows results, to paint Snyder's JL as a failure (it was the most sucessful streaming film of all times) and to make their Gunn efforst look like they are breaking records (like they said the trailer for his movie made 150 million views in 2 days, which was totally fabricated, or that his DC show is more viewed than Witcher season 2, which is also factually false).
> 
> It's a piece of sh!t company that I won't support ever, until someone fires all these guys like Johns, Hamada, Emmerich, Sarnoff, etc. There's this Discovery merger soon so we'll see what happens.



John Campea has been saying all those guys will probably lose their jobs once Discovery takes over, which will hopefully get them back on track. Nobody is denying Warner Bros sucks right now, they completely screwed over everyone with the day and date HBO Max debacle and as a result lost the biggest director on the planet who’s now going to be making hundreds of millions for Universal instead

But I think they were doomed from the start trying to have a cinematic universe, and that’s coming from someone who liked all the Snyder movies, DC never should’ve tried to play catch-up with the MCU, their strength is in their standalone movies, Joker proved that, The Dark Knight trilogy proved that, all they need to do is make solo Batman movies and they’ve already won that war. Do I think the Batfleck movie would’ve been awesome? Yeah probably. Will the Batinson move be awesome? Judging from the trailers, absolutely!! And that’s my point, this single Batman movie will be better than the entire MCU, no doubt about it, so they should just keep doing what they do best and keep making standalone Batman movies


----------



## KEM




----------



## tmhuud

Oh, history is full of this....


----------



## KEM

tmhuud said:


> Oh, history is full of this....



Really good Batman movies?? It sure is!!


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

KEM said:


>



The movie itself looks great - the colors, camera angles etc.
Sure, this clip may look like something that's been seen several times before, but then again, it's a Batman movie; everything's been done many times before


----------



## KEM

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> The movie itself looks great - the colors, camera angles etc.
> Sure, this clip may look like something that's been seen several times before, but then again, it's a Batman movie; everything's been done many times before



I will take as many Batman movies as I can get, that’ll never be a complaint from me!!


----------



## KEM

Would’ve loved a sonic landscape like this as well


----------



## Consona

KEM said:


> Would’ve loved a sonic landscape like this as well



Reeves said he wants to do like a Hitchcockian atmosphere in the film. Then he hires Giacchino... Which is still way better than hiring Guðnadóttir for a Hitchcockian Joker film, not gonna lie. If Giacchino wanted I think he could study the scores and improve his chops, but I don't think this will be the case. Guðnadóttir's soundscapes bullshit in a film emulating 70s/80s crimi dramas was really killing me inside.

So, in the end, you are not getting the modern insane Zimmer/JXL/Meyerson stuff and I'm not getting anything Herrmann-esque.


----------



## KEM

Consona said:


> Reeves said he wants to do like a Hitchcockian atmosphere in the film. Then he hires Giacchino... Which is still way better than hiring Guðnadóttir for a Hitchcockian Joker film, not gonna lie. If Giacchino wanted I think he could study the scores and improve his chops, but I don't think this will be the case. Guðnadóttir's soundscapes bullshit in a film emulating 70s/80s crimi dramas was really killing me inside.
> 
> So, in the end, you are not getting the modern insane Zimmer/JXL/Meyerson stuff and I'm not getting anything Herrmann-esque.



They needed Ludwig, everybody needs a Ludwig score


----------



## KEM

Official Riddler theme


----------



## Consona

Man, Giacchino’s compositions are so stiff. Send him to some good music school, please.


----------



## dcoscina

Consona said:


> Man, Giacchino’s compositions are so stiff. Send him to some good music school, please.


The recording sounds pretty terrific... was it recorded at Abbey Road One? Sounds amazing. Musically... well, I've said my piece on Gia... no need to recapping it like an 8th note figure arpeggiation in any Philip Glass piece.


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> but I’ll be the first to admit that I’ll gladly pay for anything involving Batman lol


Oh no you wouldn't!

You're probably too young to remember the Batman films before Nolan.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> Oh no you wouldn't!
> 
> You're probably too young to remember the Batman films before Nolan.



Jokes on you because I was born the year Batman & Robin came out and I grew on the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies!

Are they good movies? No, absolutely not (Burton’s are alright, Schumacher’s are terrible). But I used to watch them on VHS everyday as a kid so I have a soft spot for them and I love them, I love every single Batman movie I’ve ever seen if I’m being honest, but Nolan’s are far and away the best and I think Matt Reeves will continue the trend of making great Batman films


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> Jokes on you because I was born the year Batman & Robin came out and I grew on the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies!
> 
> Are they good movies? No, absolutely not (Burton’s are alright, Schumacher’s are terrible). But I used to watch them on VHS everyday as a kid so I have a soft spot for them and I love them, I love every single Batman movie I’ve ever seen if I’m being honest, but Nolan’s are far and away the best and I think Matt Reeves will continue the trend of making great Batman films


I get the nostalgia, but what I meant is that you wouldn't pay to watch a new Batman film as terrible as Batman & Robin was back then!


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> I get the nostalgia, but what I meant is that you wouldn't pay to watch a new Batman film as terrible as Batman & Robin was back then!



Well, sadly, I definitely would  


Now would I have seen it in theaters more than once? No, probably not…


Ok that’s a lie I probably would lol, I just love Batman alright cut me some slack old man!!


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Jokes on you because I was born the year Batman & Robin came out and I grew on the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies!
> 
> Are they good movies? No, absolutely not (Burton’s are alright, Schumacher’s are terrible). But I used to watch them on VHS everyday as a kid so I have a soft spot for them and I love them, I love every single Batman movie I’ve ever seen if I’m being honest, but Nolan’s are far and away the best and I think Matt Reeves will continue the trend of making great Batman films


Jesus... I have socks older than you kid!


----------



## Consona

The Bulbous-head-man. I'd fricking burst into laughter encountering him in an alley.

How can people with next to none aesthetic sensibilities be directors and costume designers?!






I hope the film is good, but making Batman look dumb is quite a failure.



Speaking of Batman & Robin, at least that film had awesome and impressive visuals and was stylish as fck!









I like B&R for what it is, the '60s campiness on steroids with flamboyant uber-stylish art deco neon gothic fever dream aesthetics. Pure sensation.
Also, the scene where Ivy kills Freeze's wife is darker than anything Disney's doing these days.


----------



## dcoscina

Consona said:


> The Bulbous-head-man. I'd fricking burst into laughter encountering him in an alley.
> 
> How can people with next to none aesthetic sensibilities be directors and costume designers?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope the film is good, but making Batman look dumb is quite a failure.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of Batman & Robin, at least that film had awesome and impressive visuals and was stylish as fck!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like B&R for what it is, the '60s campiness on steroids with flamboyant uber-stylish art deco neon gothic fever dream aesthetics. Pure sensation.
> Also, the scene where Ivy kills Freeze's wife is darker than anything Disney's doing these days.


I think they are going for function over form. The helmet allows for greater movement of the head. No one wants to be restricted when involved in hand to hand combat


----------



## KEM

Consona said:


> The Bulbous-head-man. I'd fricking burst into laughter encountering him in an alley.
> 
> How can people with next to none aesthetic sensibilities be directors and costume designers?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope the film is good, but making Batman look dumb is quite a failure.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of Batman & Robin, at least that film had awesome and impressive visuals and was stylish as fck!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like B&R for what it is, the '60s campiness on steroids with flamboyant uber-stylish art deco neon gothic fever dream aesthetics. Pure sensation.
> Also, the scene where Ivy kills Freeze's wife is darker than anything Disney's doing these days.



Personally I love this new Batsuit besides the stitched together cowl, but it’s also a year two Batman so from a story perspective I can understand why he doesn’t have a high tech suit yet, it’ll most likely get upgraded later to something much cooler

But that being said nothing is beating this batsuit, ever


----------



## Consona

Batfleck > the rest


----------



## Consona

A friend of mine did an edit. Making a WAY better job than the director and his costume designers...




..


----------



## KEM

Consona said:


> Batfleck > the rest



Ehhhh I disagree, I know they were going for a comic accurate portrayal of the suit from The Dark Knight Returns but I don’t think it translated to real life that well, I don’t hate the suit by any means but I’ve always thought Batman looks better with longer ears, and the neck was a bit too big, overall it still looks good but the Nolan suit looks the best to me


----------



## KEM

Make the cowl look high tech instead of homemade and it’d be an almost perfect Batsuit


----------



## dcoscina

Consona said:


> A friend of mine did an edit. Making a WAY better job than the director and his costume designers...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..


Affleck is one of the few actors who is the proper height and stature of Batman. Most other actors have been too short. It's a pity he didn't remain on the project as I would have liked to have seen a grittier version of this character.


----------



## KEM

They really had Batfleck out here looking like wide neck


----------



## Robin Thompson

KEM said:


> Official Riddler theme



I'm down with this music. It's better than the main theme I think.

I'm still decidedly NOT down with this awful Riddler design. I mean for one thing I thought we'd finally grown past the point where superhero films feel like they have to apologize for being superhero films by making everything grungy and "realistic." But even beyond that... even the Nolan films - which defined the grounded/realistic superhero aesthetic - still did it in a way that respected the core qualities that made each character who they were. If anything, recontextualizing them brought renewed focus and value to those qualities.

But this isn't simply a reinterpretation of Riddler as he might appear in our world. This is a different character entirely, almost his diametric opposite in fact. I would buy this as a pretty good Hush (and hey, I'd love to see Hush or some other 2nd shelf Batman villains get a chance on the big screen - there's plenty good ones to choose from). Which is a shame, because I thought Paul Dano was a great choice to play Riddler as I know him.

And also, the Zodiac inspiration is stupid. Personally I also consider it crass - Zodiac after all was a real killer with real victims. But it's definitely stupid. Because the thing is Zodiac was a *terrible* cryptographer. His messages weren't tricky because we was a genius but because he was bad at it. Using him as inspiration for Riddler suggests they just wanted to make an edgy reference without actually knowing much about it.


----------



## Satorious

Undecided on the main theme - think it might work in a "Jaws" like way if utilized well. This Riddler Theme seems decent but it does feel a little derivative of Giacchino's own Jurassic World scores.


----------



## grabauf

THIS is Batman!


----------



## Consona

Me making memes of HamadaBurgers:






Warner Bros' marketing campaign one year later:






I still can't believe it's fricking true.


----------



## tonio_

I quite liked his Rogue One score... The Hope, Imperial and Whills Suites are quite nice. Some beautiful melodies in there IMHO. I really like Up and The Incredibles too.

The Batman theme feels quite strange to me though. Sounds slightly "emo" for lack of a better work, but I don't know how else to describe it lol


----------



## Consona

KEM said:


> They really had Batfleck out here looking like wide neck


Stop the embarrassment. Everything WB is doing now is such a downgrade it hurts.


----------



## Robin Thompson

Consona said:


> Me making memes of HamadaBurgers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Warner Bros' marketing campaign one year later:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still can't believe it's fricking true.


"Can I persuade you to take a sandwich with you sir?"

"I'll get drive-thru."


----------



## KEM

Robin Thompson said:


> "Can I persuade you to take a sandwich with you sir?"
> 
> "I'll get drive-thru."



Just landed in LA and that was the movie my best friend and I watched on our flight lol


----------



## Consona

The new clip is 🔥.

View attachment batlol0SIjkEPKEX1xg09d.mp4


----------



## Grizzlymv

Consona said:


> The new clip is 🔥.
> 
> View attachment batlol0SIjkEPKEX1xg09d.mp4


For someone who grew with the 1966 era, it's missing some Paf! Kapow!! and Bam! to be a true Batman movie though, but overall, I'm quite excited to see this one!!


----------



## KEM

Consona said:


> The new clip is 🔥.
> 
> View attachment batlol0SIjkEPKEX1xg09d.mp4



Wait is this clip legit? Does he actually punch Gordon in the face?


----------



## KEM

Nevermind I found it


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Wait is this clip legit? Does he actually punch Gordon in the face?


I hope they have the Scooby Doo carton running sound intact in the theatrical version. I've read this is the Director's Edit. LMAO


----------



## KEM

Actual clip is from this video at 7:30


----------



## KEM

How’s everyone feeling about the music in this scene?


----------



## Satorious

Another track - this time for Catwoman, liking the smooth retro jazz tone of this one - reminds me a bit of John Barry.


----------



## KEM

Satorious said:


> Another track - this time for Catwoman, liking the smooth retro jazz tone of this one - reminds me a bit of John Barry.




You beat me to it, I was just about to post it


----------



## KEM

Just finished listening to the Catwoman theme and I have to be honest, they should’ve hired Ludwig or Lorne to do this movie


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> How’s everyone feeling about the music in this scene?



Pretty bland...


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> Pretty bland...



Very, so far the only thing I’ve liked has been the main Batman motif, everything else has been pretty boring and uninspired. I’d have taken anyone at RCP at this point


----------



## Satorious

KEM said:


> Just finished listening to the Catwoman theme and I have to be honest, they should’ve hired Ludwig or Lorne to do this movie


If you want that then you always have the Lego Batman movie!  I actually prefer the retro/noir/sultry vibe of this one (more so than anything I've heard so far).


----------



## KEM

Why couldn’t it have been this…


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Very, so far the only thing I’ve liked has been the main Batman motif, everything else has been pretty boring and uninspired. I’d have taken anyone at RCP at this point


I wish Göransson had worked on it.

I like the Catwoman theme but given Giacchino has never shown an ability for this kind of jazz harmony, I'm going with a co-writer/arranger/assistant as the author of this. Sorry but it just doesn't sound like anything in his style up to now.


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


> I wish Göransson had worked on it.
> 
> I like the Catwoman theme but given Giacchino has never shown an ability for this kind of jazz harmony, I'm going with a co-writer/arranger/assistant as the author of this. Sorry but it just doesn't sound like anything in his style up to now.



Göransson would’ve crushed this film, I know I’m a fanboy but his score for Venom is what I imagine the music in this sounding like, and he would’ve blown those expectations away too


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Göransson would’ve crushed this film, I know I’m a fanboy but his score for Venom is what I imagine the music in this sounding like, and he would’ve blown those expectations away too


Venom was quite tasty. His Prokofiev-on-steroids styled theme for Venom was perfect.

Black Panther was a terrific superhero score. It was very well developed which is something of a rarity in Marvel scores. He actually had signature themes and motives for different characters. Killmonger's cross between urban/hip-hop and Rachmaninoff portent was inspired.

I don't love everything he's done (Deathwish was kinda uninspired) but when he's firing on all cylinders, he's indeed very impressive


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


> Venom was quite tasty. His Prokofiev-on-steroids styled theme for Venom was perfect.



Exactly, it was awesome, he could’ve done something incredible for this!! Post that Prokofiev piece I’d love to give it a listen, I love that Venom score so much so I’d be cool to hear the inspiration


----------



## KEM

Post the Rachmaninoff piece too, I don’t really ever listen to classical music but I’d love to hear what Ludwig is drawing from


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Exactly, it was awesome, he could’ve done something incredible for this!! Post that Prokofiev piece I’d love to give it a listen, I love that Venom score so much so I’d be cool to hear the inspiration


Oh sorry, it's not really any piece of Prokofiev but more his harmonic idiom that Goransson evoked. Which is why I respect it. He came up with an original theme but it has its inspiration in Prokofiev. At least that's what I hear in it. 

for bombastic Prokofiev though, check out Scythian Suite, Alexander Nevsky (Crusaders in Pskov), his Symphony 3 (my favorite- it's based on his Fiery Angel opera about a girl who has demonic visions).


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Post the Rachmaninoff piece too, I don’t really ever listen to classical music but I’d love to hear what Ludwig is drawing from


The figure that Goransson uses, to my ears, is very similar to the opening motive of Rachmaninoff's 1st Symphony (a figure Horner used ad nauseum throughout the course of his career to the point where people nicknamed it the Danger Motif). Goransson at least changed the figure to a 3:2 tuplet feel and slowed it down to make it more foreboding. Note-wise, it shares the same intervals in the same order. But it can be seen as a superficial similarity.


----------



## NoamL

dcoscina said:


> I wish Göransson had worked on it.
> 
> I like the Catwoman theme but given Giacchino has never shown an ability for this kind of jazz harmony, I'm going with a co-writer/arranger/assistant as the author of this. Sorry but it just doesn't sound like anything in his style up to now.


He did something a little similar in the Star Trek Beyond score. Also, there's The Incredibles right?


----------



## NoamL

The photos of Baleman and Pattman side by side are surprising. Wikipedia says Robert Pattison was 33 during filming this movie as was Bale during TDK. But Bale looks a decade older than Pattison (in a good way, for the character). IMO a rule of Batman should be, if you can't imagine the actor playing Commissioner Gordon or a Gotham mob boss, then he probably shouldn't be Batman either.


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


> Oh sorry, it's not really any piece of Prokofiev but more his harmonic idiom that Goransson evoked. Which is why I respect it. He came up with an original theme but it has its inspiration in Prokofiev. At least that's what I hear in it.
> 
> for bombastic Prokofiev though, check out Scythian Suite, Alexander Nevsky (Crusaders in Pskov), his Symphony 3 (my favorite- it's based on his Fiery Angel opera about a girl who has demonic visions).





dcoscina said:


> The figure that Goransson uses, to my ears, is very similar to the opening motive of Rachmaninoff's 1st Symphony (a figure Horner used ad nauseum throughout the course of his career to the point where people nicknamed it the Danger Motif). Goransson at least changed the figure to a 3:2 tuplet feel and slowed it down to make it more foreboding. Note-wise, it shares the same intervals in the same order. But it can be seen as a superficial similarity.




Thanks I’ll check all these out!!


----------



## KEM

Soundtrack is available for pre-order on iTunes


----------



## MauroPantin

Just browsed through this entire thread in a break from work. I have to say, if anything, the harmonic material of this entire movie has been very consistent for the entirety of the marketing material. 

Giacchino's first posted video on twitter, the original teaser trailer and full trailer underscored by Nirvana's "Something in the way" AND the final theatrical trailer and Main Theme single, every single one of those musical moments is, harmonically speaking:

Bbm -> Gb5

so in other words:

i - bVI5

It's pretty clever to leave the second chord without the 3rd. That way you get flexibility for both the more sinister "Imperial March" sound that uses a bVI minor chord, but also for the borrowed bVI major chord that outlines both Hans's and Danny Elfman's themes. 

I would have love some continuation of the Affleck aesthetic, I really like the Frank Miller vibe. But anyway, it's Batman, so I'll be watching.


----------



## KEM




----------



## KEM

@Pier sad react?!


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> @Pier sad react?!


Yeah... the more I see the more I'm thinking it will be bad.

I don't know... it could all work out really well in the end.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> Yeah... the more I see the more I'm thinking it will be bad.
> 
> I don't know... it could all work out really well in the end.



Nothing is touching The Dark Knight, but this movie is looking pretty good


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> Nothing is touching The Dark Knight, but this movie is looking pretty good


Aesthetically, it looks great, but there's so much wrong in the two videos you've shared.

I'm not liking the music but also the fighting in the catwoman video is just so lame. Or how the camera is used seems so... amateurish in a way.

I initially was also very excited about Pattison after having liked him on a number of films (Tenet, The Lighthouse, The King, etc). But now... I don't know. I'm not convinced.


----------



## tmhuud

I think the visuals are going to carry this one folks. (I certainly hope I am wrong!)


----------



## dcoscina

Pier said:


> Aesthetically, it looks great, but there's so much wrong in the two videos you've shared.
> 
> I'm not liking the music but also the fighting in the catwoman video is just so lame. Or how the camera is used seems so... amateurish in a way.
> 
> I initially was also very excited about Pattison after having liked him on a number of films (Tenet, The Lighthouse, The King, etc). But now... I don't know. I'm not convinced.


Fight choreography and how action scenes are framed/edited in Hollywood have been a joke in the last 2 decades. Shaky camera and close shots make those sequences unintelligible. The Wachowskis had it right. They hired one of Hong Kong’s greatest fight choreographers for The Matrix. And their shots were wide and let the beauty of the fight take centre stage.


----------



## aeliron

dcoscina said:


> Fight choreography and how action scenes are framed/edited in Hollywood have been a joke in the last 2 decades. Shaky camera and close shots make those sequences unintelligible. The Wachowskis had it right. They hired one of Hong Kong’s greatest fight choreographers for The Matrix. And their shots were wide and let the beauty of the fight take centre stage.


So sad how (I'm sure) the actors spent hours rehearing those fight scenes, and then you get the jerky-cam idiocy.


----------



## dcoscina

aeliron said:


> So sad how (I'm sure) the actors spent hours rehearing those fight scenes, and then you get the jerky-cam idiocy.


Yup. Less the choreography and more the filming that really sucks these days


----------



## dcoscina

Just imagine playing this opening scene for a Gen YYZ () and see how long they keep their attention.... people from my era loved this drawn out tension.


----------



## KEM

The warehouse fight from Batman v Superman remains the greatest fight scene ever (in my opinion), but this wasn’t bad by any means, I don’t even think it was supposed to be a fight scene really, Catwoman obviously doesn’t really pose any sort of physical threat to Batman and this fight scene shows that, it’s supposed to be an unequal power balance. The fight scenes shown in the trailers look much more like legit fight scenes and they look awesome!!

But yeah the music I’ll agree with, it’s nothing special and pretty lackluster, the short cluster strings are cool and that little piano motif is nice, but there’s nothing built up around it, there’s only a light cymbal to give some rhythm and that’s really it, some ambient soundscapes and synth stuff could’ve made this feel much more lively and fleshed out. Ughhhhhh they should’ve just hired Ludwig!!!


----------



## MauroPantin

KEM said:


> Catwoman obviously doesn’t really pose any sort of physical threat to Batman and this fight scene shows that, it’s supposed to be an unequal power balance.


I don't know about the movie but at least in the source material Catwoman can pose a very real threat to Batman if she's inclined... You're right in that she's not Batman's equal in a fight, but she's sneaky and very resourceful, she can be pretty dangerous. 

There's even one comic where Catwoman stops Prometheus (with a crack of the whip to the groin... ouch!) and saves the day after he steamrolled the entire JLA, including Batman.


----------



## KEM

MauroPantin said:


> I don't know about the movie but at least in the source material Catwoman can pose a very real threat to Batman if she's inclined... You're right in that she's not Batman's equal in a fight, but she's sneaky and very resourceful, she can be pretty dangerous.
> 
> There's even one comic where Catwoman stops Prometheus (with a crack of the whip to the groin... ouch!) and saves the day after he steamrolled the entire JLA, including Batman.



Yeah in the comics for sure, this portrayal seems to show Catwoman as more of an emotional threat to Batman which I like, and Zoë Kravitz even said her Catwoman poses no physical threat to Battinson in a fight, but she can definitely get in his head


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> The warehouse fight from Batman v Superman remains the greatest fight scene ever (in my opinion), but this wasn’t bad by any means, I don’t even think it was supposed to be a fight scene really, Catwoman obviously doesn’t really pose any sort of physical threat to Batman and this fight scene shows that, it’s supposed to be an unequal power balance. The fight scenes shown in the trailers look much more like legit fight scenes and they look awesome!!
> 
> But yeah the music I’ll agree with, it’s nothing special and pretty lackluster, the short cluster strings are cool and that little piano motif is nice, but there’s nothing built up around it, there’s only a light cymbal to give some rhythm and that’s really it, some ambient soundscapes and synth stuff could’ve made this feel much more lively and fleshed out. Ughhhhhh they should’ve just hired Ludwig!!!


uhhhh, yeah no. Look at hand to hand combat from Enter the Dragon, Drunken Master 2, Ip Man (the part where he fights 10 black belts), Way of the Dragon, Five Deadly Venoms, Once Upon a Time in China, Hero (Jet Li)... even Jack Reacher (the first one)...maybe the first John Wick. North American filmmakers rarely know how to frame and edit a coherent fight scene

disclaimer- this is coming from both a MA film enthusiast and someone who has trained in various styles for the last 40 years...


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


> uhhhh, yeah no. Look at hand to hand combat from Enter the Dragon, Drunken Master 2, Ip Man (the part where he fights 10 black belts), Way of the Dragon, Five Deadly Venoms, Once Upon a Time in China, Hero (Jet Li)... even Jack Reacher (the first one)...maybe the first John Wick. North American filmmakers rarely know how to frame and edit a coherent fight scene
> 
> disclaimer- this is coming from both a MA film enthusiast and someone who has trained in various styles for the last 40 years...



I don’t remember any of those movies having Batman  

Nothing will ever beat Batman fight scenes, just the fact that it’s Batman makes it better by default


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> I don’t remember any of those movies having Batman
> 
> Nothing will ever beat Batman fight scenes, just the fact that it’s Batman makes it better by default


I think Black Panther could take Batman.. Cap America too! And I prefer the fights in Winter Soldier to anything in the DK series. Which is a shame. Batman _should_ kick butt.


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


> I think Black Panther could take Batman.. Cap America too! And I prefer the fights in Winter Soldier to anything in the DK series. Which is a shame. Batman _should_ kick butt.



Yeah but those characters just aren’t Batman. Batman is cool, he has swag, he’s dark, he’s iconic, Batman is the greatest fictional character ever created


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Yeah but those characters just aren’t Batman. Batman is cool, he has swag, he’s dark, he’s iconic, Batman is the greatest fictional character ever created


Definitely one of the greatest for sure. No argument there. I just wish they would treat him the way he should be cinematically. First, like Jack Reacher in the book, he's massive. Affleck was probably the closest in stature to the character. Hard to know if he could have commanded the screen better because the scripts for the movies he was featured in were pretty bad. I liked Bale to a point. The Nolan films were very well made however and thus far, the best representation of The Dark Knight universe. We will have to see how Matt Reeves' take on it plays out in March.


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


> Definitely one of the greatest for sure. No argument there. I just wish they would treat him the way he should be cinematically. First, like Jack Reacher in the book, he's massive. Affleck was probably the closest in stature to the character. Hard to know if he could have commanded the screen better because the scripts for the movies he was featured in were pretty bad. I liked Bale to a point. The Nolan films were very well made however and thus far, the best representation of The Dark Knight universe. We will have to see how Matt Reeves' take on it plays out in March.



I’ve seen both Jack Reacher films and I quite enjoyed both, and the John Wick movies were awesome, my point was mainly that if you took the fight scenes in those franchises and replaced their respective protagonists with Batman they would instantly be way cooler just because of the fact that it’s Batman!! Nolan’s films are easily the best Batman movies in terms of overall filmmaking but the fight choreography was a weak point, the Batfleck stuff was basically the opposite, from the trailers it looks like Battinson will have some well choreographed fight scenes. Either way I still remain highly optimistic


----------



## aeliron

dcoscina said:


> Definitely one of the greatest for sure. No argument there. I just wish they would treat him the way he should be cinematically. First, like Jack Reacher in the book, he's massive. Affleck was probably the closest in stature to the character. Hard to know if he could have commanded the screen better because the scripts for the movies he was featured in were pretty bad. I liked Bale to a point. The Nolan films were very well made however and thus far, the best representation of The Dark Knight universe. We will have to see how Matt Reeves' take on it plays out in March.


I hated the idea of an Affleck Batman, but I actually liked him as Batman in the movies. I think he did bring enough maturity and gravitas to the character.


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> I’ve seen both Jack Reacher films and I quite enjoyed both, and the John Wick movies were awesome, my point was mainly that if you took the fight scenes in those franchises and replaced their respective protagonists with Batman they would instantly be way cooler just because of the fact that it’s Batman!! Nolan’s films are easily the best Batman movies in terms of overall filmmaking but the fight choreography was a weak point, the Batfleck stuff was basically the opposite, from the trailers it looks like Battinson will have some well choreographed fight scenes. Either way I still remain highly optimistic


I will remain cautiously optimistic. I've never seen a bad Matt Reeve's film yet.


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


> I will remain cautiously optimistic. I've never seen a bad Matt Reeve's film yet.



I’ve actually never seen a Matt Reeves film ever!!


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> I’ve actually never seen a Matt Reeves film ever!!


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


>



Sadly I’ve never seen any of those…


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Sadly I’ve never seen any of those…


Well, I'd pedal down to the local Blockbuster and rent 'em! '

Sorry wrong era... 

Netflix anyone?


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


> Well, I'd pedal down to the local Blockbuster and rent 'em! '
> 
> Sorry wrong era...
> 
> Netflix anyone?



Apple TV!! I’ll get on it soon


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Apple TV!! I’ll get on it soon


I would recommend Let Me In and the POTA films. Both are very deliberately paced and edited. Reeves' clearly respects Giacchino so he gives his music space to shine.


----------



## Pier




----------



## Pier

dcoscina said:


> I would recommend Let Me In


Have you seen the original Swedish film?

The Reeves' remake had a bigger budget but it felt a bit bland in comparison.


----------



## aeliron

Pier said:


> Have you seen the original Swedish film?
> 
> The Reeves' remake had a bigger budget but it felt a bit bland in comparison.


Yep, saw it before the remake. Very nicely done. Especially the cat attack!


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


>




Thank god it’s hi-res lossless too


----------



## AlexRuger

dcoscina said:


> I will remain cautiously optimistic. I've never seen a bad Matt Reeve's film yet.


I hadn't either so I recently watched the Apes trilogy. Of course he didn't do the first film, but the latter two are Reeves/Giacchino.

...and I just...didn't like them. Reeves consistently dropped the ball in terms of pacing, tension/release, etc. There were some obvious directions for the story to go (at least to me), and the films felt as if they went out of their way to avoid anything truly compelling or cohesive.

And Giacchino's score, especially in the third film, was just straight _nonsense. _Again I hate to be so critical of the guy because he seems like a really nice dude, but it was as if he was scoring an entirely different film. As usual, he has one theme (which didn't even work for the movie -- it's this weird Dorian thing that feels like it belongs in a 60s Bond film), and he harps on it _over and over and over _with little to no development. The word that comes to mind is "plodding." Which is precisely what an action/blockbuster/etc score should _never _be.

Maybe I'm just not their audience, but so far the Reeves/Giacchino team-up just isn't my thing.


----------



## dcoscina

AlexRuger said:


> I hadn't either so I recently watched the Apes trilogy. Of course he didn't do the first film, but the latter two are Reeves/Giacchino.
> 
> ...and I just...didn't like them. Reeves consistently dropped the ball in terms of pacing, tension/release, etc. There were some obvious directions for the story to go (at least to me), and the films felt as if they went out of their way to avoid anything truly compelling or cohesive.
> 
> And Giacchino's score, especially in the third film, was just straight _nonsense. _Again I hate to be so critical of the guy because he seems like a really nice dude, but it was as if he was scoring an entirely different film. As usual, he has one theme (which didn't even work for the movie -- it's this weird Dorian thing that feels like it belongs in a 60s Bond film), and he harps on it _over and over and over _with little to no development. The word that comes to mind is "plodding." Which is precisely what an action/blockbuster/etc score should _never _be.
> 
> Maybe I'm just not their audience, but so far the Reeves/Giacchino team-up just isn't my thing.


It's ok Alex. I am trying to be more "glass half full" moving forward. I did think the music worked with the films at the time I saw them. I do not listen to them apart from the film and oddly enough, even though I really like the last POTA, I have not watched it since the theatre experience. Whereas, I play and watch the original POTA (1968) all the time. Goldsmith's music continues to amaze me. I'm glad he left such a rich and diverse body of work behind for us all to enjoy.

EDIT- I did try to listen to the full Batman soundtrack on Spotify today... couldn't make it through. Just too redundant and not engaging. Almost 2 hours of music is too much for any soundtrack... this could have been edited down to 45 minutes and it would have been a better listen... 

Composers capable of sustaining this kind of interest for 2 hours are long since dead... Like Wagner... Mahler, Bruckner... those dudes.


----------



## KEM

I’m a little more than halfway through the soundtrack right now and so far nothing has really grabbed my attention, the main Batman motif is awesome, and whenever it comes up I get excited, but everything else around it is just bland and uninteresting. The score feels safe and I don’t like safe music


----------



## AlexRuger

dcoscina said:


> It's ok Alex. I am trying to be more "glass half full" moving forward. I did think the music worked with the films at the time I saw them. I do not listen to them apart from the film and oddly enough, even though I really like the last POTA, I have not watched it since the theatre experience. Whereas, I play and watch the original POTA (1968) all the time. Goldsmith's music continues to amaze me. I'm glad he left such a rich and diverse body of work behind for us all to enjoy.
> 
> EDIT- I did try to listen to the full Batman soundtrack on Spotify today... couldn't make it through. Just too redundant and not engaging. Almost 2 hours of music is too much for any soundtrack... this could have been edited down to 45 minutes and it would have been a better listen...
> 
> Composers capable of sustaining this kind of interest for 2 hours are long since dead... Like Wagner... Mahler, Bruckner... those dudes.


I wouldn't judge a score outside of the context of the film. If it's a good listen as a standalone experience, great, but its primary function is to work with the film. Giacchino's Apes scores achieve neither for me.

Goldsmith's...yes dude. That score is absolutely unbelievable, a classic among classics.


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> I’m a little more than halfway through the soundtrack right now and so far nothing has really grabbed my attention, the main Batman motif is awesome, and whenever it comes up I get excited, but everything else around it is just bland and uninteresting. The score feels safe and I don’t like safe music


I'm liking it a lot more now listening to the whole thing than the previews.

I wouldn't say "safe" but rather "classic". It seems inspired by noir films and the Bernard Herrmann stuff. I think it's a nice blend of 50s suspense/thriller with hard boiled detective.


----------



## dcoscina

AlexRuger said:


> I wouldn't judge a score outside of the context of the film. If it's a good listen as a standalone experience, great, but its primary function is to work with the film. Giacchino's Apes scores achieve neither for me.
> 
> Goldsmith's...yes dude. That score is absolutely unbelievable, a classic among classics.


I keep begging Tim from Omni to release POTA by Goldsmith. Of any full score, I think that would be one of the holy grails to study because it's just so damned original. And take downs from that score are....... challenging. Ok, they are impossible. 

in the meantime there is this


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> I'm liking it a lot more now listening to the whole thing than the previews.
> 
> I wouldn't say "safe" but rather "classic". It seems inspired by noir films and the Bernard Herrmann stuff. I think it's a nice blend of 50s suspense/thriller with hard boiled detective.



To me classic is safe, there isn’t really any experimentation in this score, which is something I value greatly


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> To me classic is safe, there isn’t really any experimentation in this score, which is something I value greatly


And now you're going to tell me that Ludwig makes experimental music, right? 😂


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> And now you're going to tell me that Ludwig makes experimental music, right? 😂



Nobody else in Hollywood is making music like this…


----------



## Zanshin

I listened to about a 1/2 hour of it while driving. I agree the tracks could have been edited down - I found myself losing interest as a track went on. 

It might be a good fit for the movie, we’ll see.

I personally wish they had gone more left field and got someone like Bobby Krlic (Midsommar) to do it.


----------



## KEM

Zanshin said:


> I listened to about a 1/2 hour of it while driving. I agree the tracks could have been edited down - I found myself losing interest as a track went on.
> 
> It might be a good fit for the movie, we’ll see.
> 
> I personally wish they had gone more left field and got someone like Bobby Krlic (Midsommar) to do it.



The Haxan Cloak is awesome, been listening to him since his work with Björk


----------



## AdamKmusic

I’m gonna hold out until ive heard it in context, I wasn’t overly blown away by the main theme but maybe it works better to picture


----------



## KEM

I am extremely excited to see this film though, I’m going to Branson with a group of friends to see it in IMAX two days in a row


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> Nobody else in Hollywood is making music like this…



Eh maybe, but that doesn't make it experimental.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> Eh maybe, but that doesn't make it experimental.



It’s certainly not “experimental” in the way we think of stuff like Arca, but for film music its definitely pushing the boundaries. Hip-hop drums, 8 string djent guitars, EDM synths, and Zimmer style orchestral arrangements all in one, you know you haven’t heard anyone else doing that besides KEM


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> It’s certainly not “experimental” in the way we think of stuff like Arca, but for film music its definitely pushing the boundaries. Hip-hop drums, 8 string djent guitars, EDM synths, and Zimmer style orchestral arrangements all in one, you know you haven’t heard anyone else doing that besides KEM


Listen to the Matrix soundtracks from 20 years ago.

EDM synths (of that era), techno drums, Indian instruments, top notch amazing orchestral stuff, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I really respect Ludwig and love the Tenet soundtrack, but it's not very experimental nor revolutionary.


----------



## dcoscina

Pier said:


> Have you seen the original Swedish film?
> 
> The Reeves' remake had a bigger budget but it felt a bit bland in comparison.


Yes indeed. I like both for different reasons.


----------



## Satorious

Guess I'm listening to a different soundtrack to some folks on here. Sure the soundtrack isn't revolutionary (doesn't really need to be), yes - it could be edited down as a soundtrack experience - but I really like that the characters each get an identifiable theme, I like that it's largely orchestral which gives it a timeless quality, I like the haunting mix of broody darkness with shards of light. We aren't experiencing it in a film context yet. If I'm being perfectly honest, it took me a while to warm to some of Zimmer's Bat themes (would still rate any of his Bat scores - including Batman vs Superman - beneath Elfman, Goldenthal or even Riddle), they feel pretty generic as standalone pieces - but work well in the films themselves. Have to say I already prefer this - er - off the bat... (Holy bad pun Batman!)


----------



## Dr.Quest

Satorious said:


> Guess I'm listening to a different soundtrack to some folks on here. Sure the soundtrack isn't revolutionary (doesn't really need to be), yes - it could be edited down as a soundtrack experience - but I really like that the characters each get an identifiable theme, I like that it's largely orchestral which gives it a timeless quality, I like the haunting mix of broody darkness with shards of light. We aren't experiencing it in a film context yet. If I'm being perfectly honest, it took me a while to warm to some of Zimmer's Bat themes (would still rate any of his Bat scores - including Batman vs Superman - beneath Elfman, Goldenthal or even Riddle), they feel pretty generic as standalone pieces - but work well in the films themselves. Have to say I already prefer this - er - off the bat... (Holy bad pun Batman!)


I agree with you. The other thing I liked the most is that the score is not BOMBASTIC! It's noir-like and moody. And it has space.


----------



## dcoscina

Elfman is still tops for me. By a large margin


----------



## KEM

Zimmer


----------



## aeliron

Pier said:


> Eh maybe, but that doesn't make it experimental.


I'm halfway through and still waiting for the music to kick in ...


----------



## KEM

aeliron said:


> I'm halfway through and still waiting for the music to kick in ...



You talking about TENET?


----------



## aeliron

KEM said:


> You talking about TENET?


The YouTube video … 😂


----------



## tmhuud

dcoscina said:


> I keep begging Tim from Omni to release POTA by Goldsmith. Of any full score, I think that would be one of the holy grails to study because it's just so damned original. And take downs from that score are....... challenging. Ok, they are impossible.
> 
> in the meantime there is this


great read!


----------



## Satorious

Dr.Quest said:


> I agree with you. The other thing I liked the most is that the score is not BOMBASTIC! It's noir-like and moody. And it has space.


Yes, agree with all of that and absolutely *love* the noir aspect. Sounds like this film is more of a detective story (Batman of the comics) than a non-stop action superhero/Marvel film, so I approve. Catwoman's theme in particular has a very femme-fatale feel about it.


----------



## KEM

It’s getting rave reviews so far









The Batman


The Batman movie reviews & Metacritic score: Batman ventures into Gotham City's underworld when a sadistic killer leaves behind a trail of cryptic clues. As the evidence begins to lead closer to home and t...




www.metacritic.com


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> It’s getting rave reviews so far
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Batman
> 
> 
> The Batman movie reviews & Metacritic score: Batman ventures into Gotham City's underworld when a sadistic killer leaves behind a trail of cryptic clues. As the evidence begins to lead closer to home and t...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.metacritic.com


Same on Rotten Tomatoes


----------



## muziksculp

I was listening to the first few tracks of this soundtrack, my reaction, I wonder what happened ?


----------



## Montisquirrel

KEM said:


> Nobody else in Hollywood is making music like this…



Not sure about Hollywood, but it sounds like music I listened to back in the 90s here in Europe (ok, maybe without the strings sounds)

And the new Batman main theme...am I still the only one who cant stop but hearing the Imperial March in this new theme? C'mon guys, I can't be the only one. 

Anyway, I dont care so much about all these Marvel Super Hero films, but I am really looking forward to watch this new Batman film.


----------



## Pier

Montisquirrel said:


> And the new Batman main theme...am I still the only one who cant stop but hearing the Imperial March in this new theme? C'mon guys, I can't be the only one.


Same 😂


----------



## KEM

I don’t hear the Imperial March at all


----------



## dcoscina

muziksculp said:


> I was listening to the first few tracks of this soundtrack, my reaction, I wonder what happened ?


Yeah, his Sonata in Darkness is a prophetic title. While it bears no association with the music form of sonata, it does induce a sleep state that gives way to darkness. LMAO. 

Seriously though, there is no development of his key themes. All restatements with no harmonic, melodic or rhythmic variation... just adding instruments on top of one another and volume. This creates a monotonous listening experience. I'd rather listen to Arvo Part or Gorecki if I want something hypnotic and moving... and so I shall!


----------



## muziksculp

I'm having much more fun, and excitement listening to the Batwoman Soundtrack. Love the Synth sounds used.

By Blake Neely, and Sherri Chung.


----------



## KEM

muziksculp said:


> I'm having much more fun, and excitement listening to the Batwoman Soundtrack. Love the Synth sounds used.
> 
> By Blake Neely, and Sherri Chung.




I’m having much more fun listening to The Dark Knight still…


----------



## muziksculp

KEM said:


> I’m having much more fun listening to The Dark Knight still…


Is the Dark Knight a BatHero ? 

Only Bats allowed here. Oh.. OK, he is a batHero. Allowed to be here.


----------



## KEM

I’ve watched pretty much every review that’s been posted on YouTube today and every single person has raved about the score. Now of course none of these people are composers, but I guess it’s a good sign if general audiences are loving the music. I still think everything I heard in the soundtrack is something Lorne Balfe could’ve written during his lunch break, but maybe in the context in the movie I’ll end up loving it


----------



## Dr.Quest

KEM said:


> I’ve watched pretty much every review that’s been posted on YouTube today and every single person has raved about the score. Now of course none of these people are composers, but I guess it’s a good sign if general audiences are loving the music. I still think everything I heard in the soundtrack is something Lorne Balfe could’ve written during his lunch break, but maybe in the context in the movie I’ll end up loving it


You do realize that Michael didn't just do this score on his own, hand it in and that was it? The producers and directors had to sign off on it. He had to make the director and producers happy for a multimillion dollar film. Reeves himself said the theme was everything he wanted.
I personally like what I hear.


----------



## KEM

Dr.Quest said:


> You do realize that Michael didn't just do this score on his own, hand it in and that was it? The producers and directors had to sign off on it. He had to make the director and producers happy for a multimillion dollar film. Reeves himself said the theme was everything he wanted.
> I personally like what I hear.



Well yeah I’m not dumb, I know how the industry works, doesn’t mean I enjoy the music lol, I like the main Batman motif but nothing actually goes anywhere


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

From Sight and Sound's lukewarm review:

*The latest iteration of the Bat-franchise mutes the colour (and emotional) palette of the film even more than Christopher Nolan’s Dark Knight trilogy or Zack Snyder’s cut of Justice League. Set almost entirely at night in a drab, perpetually rain-washed Gotham City, Matt Reeves’ The Batman offers a charcoal bat-suit without a yellow shield for the bat-symbol and presents a young Bruce Wayne not yet confident enough to leaven grimness with humour or compassion. Michael Giacchino’s outstanding score is pared down too, sometimes just to an ominous solo piano. Even the bat-signal barely glimmers against the perpetual cloud.*


----------



## KEM

There’s glimpses of really cool musical moments, but they’re short lived and underdeveloped


----------



## Dr.Quest

KEM said:


> Well yeah I’m not dumb, I know how the industry works, doesn’t mean I enjoy the music lol, I like the main Batman motif but nothing actually goes anywhere


Ha! Of course you're not dumb. The comment was in general. Ludwig still would have had to go through the same briefs and all. What if Lugwig had done it and you were still disappointed?  Better this way so you can be disappointed in someone else.


----------



## KEM

Dr.Quest said:


> Ha! Of course you're not dumb. The comment was in general. Ludwig still would have had to go through the same briefs and all. What if Lugwig had done it and you were still disappointed?  Better this way so you can be disappointed in someone else.



Well yeah that’s a fair point lol, but then again I don’t think Ludwig would’ve wrote something like this, it would’ve been much more inventive, you could even give Ludwig that main Batman motif and he would’ve developed it into something much more visceral and exciting


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> There’s glimpses of really cool musical moments, but they’re short lived and underdeveloped


Well said KEM.


----------



## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Well yeah that’s a fair point lol, but then again I don’t think Ludwig would’ve wrote something like this, it would’ve been much more inventive, you could even give Ludwig that main Batman motif and he would’ve developed it into something much more visceral and exciting


I'm inclined to agree. Whether it's his background, training, whatever... Black Panther is a great score because it's got thematic development and consistency. I would dare say the best Marvel score out there... musical signatures are so crucial in creating an emotional bond with the characters in a film. Without it, their exploits seem a lot less heroic/harrowing/triumphant/dramatic. My 2 cents.


----------



## Dr.Quest

dcoscina said:


> I'm inclined to agree. Whether it's his background, training, whatever... Black Panther is a great score because it's got thematic development and consistency. I would dare say the best Marvel score out there... musical signatures are so crucial in creating an emotional bond with the characters in a film. Without it, their exploits seem a lot less heroic/harrowing/triumphant/dramatic. My 2 cents.


I loved his Black Panther score! It was brilliant and probably the best Marvel score. I like his Mandalorian stuff as well although sometimes it's just too on the nose Spagetti Western. I did not like the Tenet score. Way too much and way too loud.


----------



## JohnG

KEM said:


> There’s glimpses of really cool musical moments, but they’re short lived and underdeveloped


I know what you're saying, but nevertheless I found things to like about it. I thought the bass clarinet figure was pretty funny for one thing. In fact, for such a dark score and (reputedly) dark movie, I found it almost oddly playful, or at least ironic.

Kept wondering whether he wrote that dirge / march thing and then after the editors temp'd it all over the place he had to just use that.


----------



## KEM

dcoscina said:


> I'm inclined to agree. Whether it's his background, training, whatever... Black Panther is a great score because it's got thematic development and consistency. I would dare say the best Marvel score out there... musical signatures are so crucial in creating an emotional bond with the characters in a film. Without it, their exploits seem a lot less heroic/harrowing/triumphant/dramatic. My 2 cents.





Dr.Quest said:


> I loved his Black Panther score! It was brilliant and probably the best Marvel score. I like his Mandalorian stuff as well although sometimes it's just too on the nose Spagetti Western. I did not like the Tenet score. Way too much and way too loud.



Black Panther and Mando both have incredible music, Black Panther winning best score at the Oscars was well deserved and I don’t think there’s any doubt that it’s Marvel’s crown jewel when it comes to music. I will say @Dr.Quest that TENET is my favorite film score of all time, but I’m sure you were already well aware of that lol


----------



## babylonwaves

It sounds like Giacchino used a lot of orchestral FX libraries (Runs, bends, aleatoric FX) and botched it together. Yes, the mix and orchestra sounds good but the melody work is horrible. He can do so much better, I don't know the reason why his performance on this soundtrack is so subpar.

"Meow and You and Everyone We Know" has a nice vibe.

Yes, there are moments but not enough to keep me interested. I'm halfway through and it starts to get on my nerves. Time to delete it.


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> you could even give Ludwig that main Batman motif and he would’ve developed it into something much more visceral and exciting


Maybe the director didn't really want that. We know Giacchino can perfectly well write exciting stuff (eg: The Incredibles, Up).

It's like you could say "the new batman movie has no colors! it's so boring!" and well the fact that the movie is shot in mostly dark and low saturated colors is the whole point of its look.

Likewise, the point of the Giacchino score is this claustrophobic and dark mood inspired by noir and detective stuff from the 50s and 60s. Any composer would have had to write within those boundaries which make perfect sense for the kind of movie it appears to be.

Personally I don't love the motif/main theme but I think the dark mood is very well achieved. I actually like how the musical ideas are sparse and minimalistic (what I'm guessing you see as underdeveloped). No idea how it'll work with the film itself though.


----------



## Dr.Quest

KEM said:


> Black Panther and Mando both have incredible music, Black Panther winning best score at the Oscars was well deserved and I don’t think there’s any doubt that it’s Marvel’s crown jewel when it comes to music. I will say @Dr.Quest that TENET is my favorite film score of all time, but I’m sure you were already well aware of that lol


Some great production ideas in Tenet. The experiment to make the score louder then the dialog was a big miss in my view. I've listened to the Tenet score several times on my daily walks and except for a handful of pieces most of it I find irritating and not enjoyable outside of the movie, which is fine. He's in demand so I'm sure Ludwig will pop up in another big movie. Looking forward to that.


----------



## KEM

Dr.Quest said:


> Some great production ideas in Tenet. The experiment to make the score louder then the dialog was a big miss in my view. I've listened to the Tenet score several times on my daily walks and except for a handful of pieces most of it I find irritating and not enjoyable outside of the movie, which is fine. He's in demand so I'm sure Ludwig will pop up in another big movie. Looking forward to that.



He scored the new Pixar movie Turning Red that comes out in a few weeks, and he’s also scoring Nolan’s next movie Oppenheimer that releases next year, if they do Mando Season 3 anytime soon he’ll for sure be returning for that, so we will absolutely be hearing more from him soon


----------



## Dr.Quest

KEM said:


> He scored the new Pixar movie Turning Red that comes out in a few weeks, and he’s also scoring Nolan’s next movie Oppenheimer that releases next year, if they do Mando Season 3 anytime soon he’ll for sure be returning for that, so we will absolutely be hearing more from him soon


Definitely excited to see what he’ll do with a Pixar movie!


----------



## KEM

Dr.Quest said:


> Definitely excited to see what he’ll do with a Pixar movie!



We won’t have to wait too much longer, the film and soundtrack will be out on March 11th!!


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> He scored the new Pixar movie Turning Red that comes out in a few weeks, and he’s also scoring Nolan’s next movie Oppenheimer that releases next year, if they do Mando Season 3 anytime soon he’ll for sure be returning for that, so we will absolutely be hearing more from him soon


He's doing amazing. Hopefully he won't burn out. I feel he's just getting started and his best stuff is ahead of him.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> He's doing amazing. Hopefully he won't burn out. I feel he's just getting started and his best stuff is ahead of him.



Ludwig is showing no signs of stopping!! He just needs to hire me as an assistant


----------



## KEM

My best friend went to the fan screening and he said he loved the movie, he’s also mixes and masters all of my music so I trust his opinions on music and he said the music was very weak and took him out of the film in some parts


----------



## JohnG

I just read something quite interesting, about the process for the score. Apparently, a significant suite was recorded with full orchestra before shooting started:

from: https://comicbook.com/movies/news/the-batman-soundtrack-michael-giacchino-score-helped-robert-pattinson-become-batman-matt-reeves/

Michael Giacchino's music for https://comicbook.com/category/the-batman-comicmovie/ (The Batman) helped https://comicbook.com/category/robert-pattinson/ (Robert Pattinson) "become Batman," according to director https://comicbook.com/category/matt-reeves/ (Matt Reeves). The score, which is https://comicbook.com/dc/news/the-batman-full-soundtrack-released/ (now available to stream or download) ahead of the March 4 opening of The Batman in theaters, features https://comicbook.com/dc/news/the-batman-catwoman-theme-matt-reeves-michael-giacchino/ (previously released themes) for Pattinson's Dark Knight and rogues Catwoman (Zoe Kravitz) and Riddler (Paul Dano). It marks the fifth collaboration between Reeves and the Academy Award-winning composer, who scored Cloverfield, Let Me In, Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, and War for the Planet of the Apes. 


"I love working with https://comicbook.com/category/michael-giacchino/ (Michael Giacchino), he's one of my favorite people," Reeves said in a press release accompanying Friday's soundtrack reveal. "So, when I got The Batman, I went to him knowing he has the same kind of love and connection to Batman that I do. He told me he wanted to do what we'd never been able to — to record before I ever shot a frame. He said, 'I want us to record a suite, as if it was the unknown Beethoven Sonata of Batman that was found, and we use that to score the entire movie.' I was excited about it, so he started writing while I was still writing, and he would send me little sample recordings of pieces he was doing on the piano." 

The night before Pattinson's https://comicbook.com/movies/news/the-batman-robert-pattinson-screen-test-val-kilmer-batsuit-matt-reeves-dc-fandome-2021/ (first screen test) in the cape and cowl, Reeves recalled, "Michael sent me this incredible suite which contained the Batman theme — he had put it together with an orchestra — and I was blown away! It was so emotional. I drove to the set, and [The Batman producer] Dylan Clark was there, and I said to him, 'You have to get in the car.' He sat in the passenger seat, and I turned up the music. The two of us literally cried. He, too, felt it was amazing."


----------



## MauroPantin

Hopefully it works in the context of the film. That's what film scores are for, anyway.

I am also hoping this iteration of an even darker Batman film does not end up becoming comically dark. There is a line there, somewhere...


----------



## KEM




----------



## Hans-Peter

MauroPantin said:


> Hopefully it works in the context of the film. That's what film scores are for, anyway.
> 
> I am also hoping this iteration of an even darker Batman film does not end up becoming comically dark. There is a line there, somewhere...


Well, I was in a private screening today and can tell you that especially towards the end stuff turns into a rather comical farce. This overly sentimental tone of the score that not even remotely fits to Batman, destroys the ending by all accounts. Not to mention that no psychiatric ward has cells that allow patients/inmates to converse with each other.

Apart from that, while being basically ok, and the detective part enjoyable, the movie is incredibly overrated; likely due to the hype. Way too long, flat characters, no character development, no engaging dramaturgic arc (a weakness of Reeves as of POTA3, it seems), no depth, no social commentary and no philosophical reflections/musings as we got used to in the Animated Series as well as The Dark Knight trilogy. Selina serves as an amsel in distress, the complete opposite of what her character is supposed to be. Bruce and Alfred get almost no screen time. To waste Pattinson on playing Batman almost exclusively and not Bruce is almost a crime. His acting is top notch; despite his boyish appearance but the next 10 years will fix that, hopefully. Overall, the movie wasn’t terrible but not more than a 6.5 out of 10 points.

Btw, this is coming from a serious Batman fan. So, I understand and enjoy the comic references. Also, I appreciate the lack of monsters and other fantastic elements (aka Doomsday in Batman v Superman *godzilla-facepalm*). I was … very… looking forward to this new iteration and left the screening somewhat disappointed. My benchmark to everything Batman are the Burtons and The Dark Knight Rises. This new Batman doesn’t even come remotely close to these, unfortunately. The same must be stated for the music. IMO, Giacchino, Reeves and the producers messed up on the score. My 2 cents.


----------



## KEM

At the theater right now, you’ll get my thoughts by the end of the night…


----------



## MauroPantin




----------



## KEM

It was amazing, but all the Nolan movies are still better


----------



## chillbot

MauroPantin said:


>


Off by a few years (for me) but this is amazing.


----------



## jbuhler

I’m from the zanier, campier Batman generation.


----------



## KEM

The music is much better in the context of the film, the detective/noir stuff fit very well but the action scene music was a bit distracting to me, felt like a cheap John Williams ripoff and it didn’t fit


----------



## KEM

Alex Niedt said:


> This honestly sums up my feelings about most film soundtracks nowadays. Tried listening to some of _The Batman_ and turned it off after about 15 minutes. Feels like I've basically heard that main theme on forums about 1000 times over the years...an amalgam of very well-worn clichés at this point.



Totally. Having a short, catchy motif is great for setting a tone and giving the audience something memorable to latch onto, but a lot of them never go anywhere and I think it’s a disservice to the film as the character it’s representing has an arc and when your character grows but the music doesn’t it just feels disjointed


----------



## Satorious

The "not going anywhere" aspect probably works in the film's favour - not that much is resolved by the end - but a few arcs/events are set in motion. I get the sense this film is not going to be for everyone - anyone expecting a Dark Knight clone might be in for a pretty rude awakening - this is a very different beast - a slow-burn detective noir. Action is definitely not the main spectacle here, tonally this film sits more with The Joker. Interestingly the musical theme that I thought that worked the best in the film itself was The Riddler's theme + really liked the use of Ave Maria.


----------



## KEM

I will say this: this is definitely the best *Batman* movie that’s ever been made, it really feels like the Arkham games and the classic Batman stories brought to life, but the Nolan films are all better movies overall

There was one plot point that I absolutely hated so *SPOILERS AHEAD*


Spoiler



They basically made The Riddler into a vlogger, it’s almost an exact copy of the Black Ops 2 villain and I hate social media based villains, they feel so gimmicky and I don’t think they’ll age well at all. The Riddler starts out as this very dark, Jigsaw/Se7en-esque serial killer and he was truly terrifying and in the last act they turn him into a social media figure with a bunch of copycat followers that end up being the henchmen Batman has to fight while the actual Riddler is locked up in Arkham, it’s literally the exact same final act from the Todd Philips Joker film from 3 years ago and it really drops the ball on all the mystery and horror they build up for The Riddler in the first 2 acts


----------



## zvenx

I haven't seen it but now hearing the music for the first time () and quite enjoying it.

rsp


----------



## aeliron

zvenx said:


> I haven't seen it but now hearing the music for the first time () and quite enjoying it.
> 
> rsp



Wait. Is that Realivox Blue at 4:16? 😀


----------



## Macrawn

Really great movie. It delivered. It was long but kept moving and developing so the length was justified. 

Very relevant in terms of the statement it was making. The rich, the corruption, and the revolutionaries and fanatics that rise when the winners take all. The theme of Vengeance worked well too ie managing the philanthropy, or focusing on vengeance. And it wasn't lost to me how even the "good" powerful people inevitably get caught up in something. In a way it was similar to Joker in theme. 

Really well done. Score seemed fine but when I watch I let myself be taken in to the movie so I don't objectively listen to the music. I didn't notice the music as much as I noticed it in Dune. But me noticing it more in Dune was actually a good thing because it really meshed with the movie. It was like a hammer in Dune, but few people can pull that off or have the guts to try.


----------



## PeterBaumann

Just seen this. Huge fan of the Nolan Batmans, and pleased to say I thought this one was great too! As others have said, it is very similar in mood to the Joker film (which I also thought was fantastic).

It felt quite 'old school' in some respects (not a bad thing), and I thought the score worked well within the context of the movie. The only bit that was a bit jarring for me was the Batman/Catwoman theme, which felt OTT, better suited in a Bond movie than this dark, gothic Batman film. Overall, really great film though.


----------



## aeliron

PeterBaumann said:


> Just seen this. Huge fan of the Nolan Batmans, and pleased to say I thought this one was great too! As others have said, it is very similar in mood to the Joker film (which I also thought was fantastic).
> 
> It felt quite 'old school' in some respects (not a bad thing), and I thought the score worked well within the context of the movie. The only bit that was a bit jarring for me was the Batman/Catwoman theme, which felt OTT, better suited in a Bond movie than this dark, gothic Batman film. Overall, really great film though.


I dunno. I caught some melody and chords and even some orchestra. Not sure that’s allowed any more 😂


----------



## Dr.Quest

I'll just leave this right here.


----------



## MauroPantin

Lol, even "Duel of the Fates" makes a cameo. We've reached peak derivative.


----------



## AdamKmusic

Saw the film yesterday & loved it! MGs score is great too, serves the picture very well although I was always hoping the build up of Batman's theme would always just resolve similar to how HZs theme does. But maybe this was intentional as this Batman has only been in the game for 2 years.


----------



## Pier

Dr.Quest said:


> I'll just leave this right here.



Exactly!


----------



## TimCox

zvenx said:


> I haven't seen it but now hearing the music for the first time () and quite enjoying it.
> 
> rsp



Soniccouture's Xtended Piano making an appearance in track 2, right out the gate!


----------



## Pier

TimCox said:


> Soniccouture's Xtended Piano making an appearance in track 2, right out the gate!


I don't know but I'd be surprised if everything we hear on the score hadn't been live recorded.



> At 2 hours, 55 minutes, “The Batman” is by far the longest film Giacchino has ever scored. He recorded with a 70-piece London orchestra and six-member boys choir over 12 days in October 2021. The orchestra — primarily strings, brass and percussion, with almost no woodwinds (just three clarinets) — was divided between Abbey Road’s Studio 1 and Studio 2, recording simultaneously with two conductors under COVID protocols.











The Music of ‘The Batman’: How Michael Giacchino Used Dread and Darkness to Score the Box Office Smash


Michael Giacchino’s dark symphony for “The Batman” — from his brooding theme for Bruce Wayne to children’s choir for the Riddler and noirish stylings for Catwoman &#82…




variety.com


----------



## TimCox

Pier said:


> I don't know but I'd be surprised if everything we hear on the score hadn't been live recorded.


I don't doubt the authenticity of the recording and I love Michael Giacchino but I suspect they just stuck with the vst for that little bit. I played the specific patch right along with the intro to the track at 4:04 and it's identical with another layer of piano FX at the same time.

Here it is in isolation:


----------



## KEM

TimCox said:


> I don't doubt the authenticity of the recording and I love Michael Giacchino but I suspect they just stuck with the vst for that little bit. I played the specific patch right along with the intro to the track at 4:04 and it's identical with another layer of piano FX at the same time.
> 
> Here it is in isolation:




It does sound pretty cool though…


----------



## TimCox

KEM said:


> It does sound pretty cool though…


I never said it wasn't. I love that library and use it all the time


----------



## KEM

TimCox said:


> I never said it wasn't. I love that library and use it all the time



I might have to pick it up!!


----------



## Valérie_D

I was not expecting the tragic/tender feel of the theme, very beautiful music.


----------



## Pier

TimCox said:


> it's identical with another layer of piano FX at the same time


Could be. It's pretty close!


----------



## KEM

Just got out of my second viewing, I really love this movie!!


----------



## zolhof

KEM said:


> Just got out of my second viewing, I really love this movie!!


I haven't yet had a chance to watch the movie, so I'm avoiding this thread like the plague hehe Glad you are feeling it KEM! In other news:









Composer Michael Giacchino to Direct Marvel’s Halloween Special


Gael Garcia Bernal and Laura Donnelly are starring in the one-hour special that will shoot later this month.




www.hollywoodreporter.com





Time to start a petition to have Ludwig do the music?


----------



## KEM

zolhof said:


> I haven't yet had a chance to watch the movie, so I'm avoiding this thread like the plague hehe Glad you are feeling it KEM! In other news:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Composer Michael Giacchino to Direct Marvel’s Halloween Special
> 
> 
> Gael Garcia Bernal and Laura Donnelly are starring in the one-hour special that will shoot later this month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hollywoodreporter.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Time to start a petition to have Ludwig do the music?



He’d be smart to have Ludwig do it!!


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

KEM said:


> Nobody else in Hollywood is making music like this…



Hans Zimmer, since the 90's. If you want more electronic stuff then the last Da Vinci Code movie was in that space. 

However, this is not a dig at Ludwig who did a fantastic job with Tenet. It can be easy to get lost with no character when you are doing an electronic score but Ludwig's score has a ton of personality and stands out.


----------



## KEM

Jotto said:


> I once asked if J Wiliams had written anything original and i was banned. But this is ok?



Williams is regarded as god around here, questioning anything he does is playing with fire, trust me I’ve crossed that line a few times myself…


----------



## Zanshin

@KEM I think your comments about Williams are fine.

However, what you’ve said regarding compression and limiting warrants a life time ban


----------



## KEM

Zanshin said:


> @KEM I think your comments about Williams are fine.
> 
> However, what you’ve said regarding compression and limiting warrants a life time ban



Compression and limiting belong on everything!!  


Oh and you forgot about the soft clipping


----------



## KEM

Ok now THIS is awesome!!


----------



## tmhuud

Hey. Are ya all lovin the 2 disc cd? No liner notes.


----------



## dcoscina

Finally had a chance to see the film. Some of it is outstanding with moments that could be the best of any Batman film (his entrance is the best I’ve seen). The pacing is fine but the movie is overly long and story driven rather than character driven. It’s not a crime but it’s harder to understand the motivation without some decent character exposition. Zoe Kravitz was wasted imo. 

Now for the score. Given the repeated use of the Nirvana song, it seems obvious that Giaccbino’s foreboding figure representing “vengeance” is derived from the song. I really wish he’d done more with it because it honestly comes off as too obvious too many times and ruins the carefully established tone Matt Reeves was going for. The most effective underscore is the textural modernist stuff which suits the film. The secondary melodic theme is good and is used well however. 

I stand by my assertion that Giacchino just cannot seem to develop or vary his ideas effectivel enough to generate really emotional resonance to punctuate scenes as a film progresses. Shame because I was wanting the score to be as good as some of the incredible sequences Reeves achieved.


----------



## aeliron

hag01 said:


> I'd love to see a film industry where the older film music styles live aside the newer.


Anyone else uncomfortable with the Aliens reference, or is it just me?


----------



## I like music

aeliron said:


> Anyone else uncomfortable with the Aliens reference, or is it just me?


Not sure I follow? I don't see any Aliens reference in the previous post?
Or are you saying there was an Aliens reference in the film? As in, Horner's Aliens?


----------



## aeliron

I like music said:


> Not sure I follow? I don't see any Aliens reference in the previous post?
> Or are you saying there was an Aliens reference in the film? As in, Horner's Aliens?


Actually, come to think of it, the reference is backwards: in Aliens, it's the new living inside the old!


----------



## aeliron

hag01 said:


> I rephrased the sentence. Was a bit awkward, OK you can make fun of me.


Oh, I'm kidding. I loved Aliens!


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## from_theashes

Man... finally watched it on iTunes. The force is strong with this one^^
Kidding aside: great movie! But that main theme... Can't imagine nobody in the production was saying that this theme so much sounds like the imperial march! no way! How can you NOT hear that?!? xD
Being inspired is one thing... but you have to recognize when you are straight copying stuff


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## tmhuud

I have become a complete convert. I absolutely LOVE the score. Love the male low voices, very unique. And of course Michael always gets some Chinese instruments into his score like in Star Trek. The Erhu was very present but in Batman its very subtle but SO well placed for emotional impact.


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## Trash Panda

After watching the movie, the only issues I have are with the plot contrivances. The soundtrack was fine on initial viewing.


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