# Let's discuss... James Horner's The Mask of Zorro



## dcoscina (Nov 14, 2021)

I remember watching this film as a 30-year-old in 1998 (wow, that was a long time ago...) and loving the action, the story and mostly Horner's soaring score. I re-acquainted myself with it the other evening and marvelled at how well the film, and score, stand up over time. The score was recorded (partly) at Air Studios which explains the big sound. Under the list of credits, it appears that Horner did most of the orchestrating himself (along with Thomas Pastieri). 

The score balances lush Spanish romanticism with terse action and some terrific use of Flamenco dancing (percussion). It's a tour de force effort and one that impacts the film so profoundly. The cues are largely long and Horner plays through the scenes which lend dramatic cohesion and development. The orchestra performance (London Session Players) is top-notch. I always like that Horner favoured tree mics or stereo mics over close mic sound, which lent a concert hall sound to his music. 

Would love to have a look at the full conductor's score is this baby!


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## GNP (Nov 14, 2021)

Yes, it borrows from Spanish culture, but ultimately to tell the actual story itself. Horner's still a legend to me.

I'm not personally a big fan of borrowing hugely from cultural music to tell a story about that culture. It just feels rather gimmicky and in fact, concealing. I prefer not to let cultural romanticisms distract away from the story itself. Just wanna tell it like it is.


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## Jish (Nov 14, 2021)

This video discusses (some) of what has been said here regarding Horner's approach to the score, as well as the cultural elements (if one see's it that way, it's actually worse in a sense...the score musically lift's alot more from Spanish culture, when it should have been far more reflective of Mexican- Wintory makes this point as well. If JH 'get's away' with this distinction unnoticed, however, that say's alot more about the audience in x country actually doing the watching).




Saw this film in 1998 when it was released. Great memories. Banderas coming off _Desperado _and Anthony Hopkins just being a soldier with some of the fencing scenes given he was injured shortly before in a previous film , _The Edge_. Never saw Zeta-Jones in anything previous- thought she was beyond stunning in the film and had great chemistry with AB. I liked the performances of the rest of the cast, and Campbell really managed some impressive sequences in this one. More quotable than most Hollywood film's to boot "_This circle will be your world, your whole life. Until I tell you otherwise, there is nothing outside of it._"

Horner's score, was something else- I really remember it working phenomenally well in the theater, and it just had such heart. I understand what is being said above regarding the cultural aspects of the score, and there is a very interesting conversation that can be had there. However, take away the frenetic pace and timbre of dancing shoes, the trumpet's, cliche acoustic guitar touches...it just would lose so much, atleast for me.

It's also a score that kind of makes me sad when I listen to it- because it hearkens back to kind of the tail end of when you could do what Horner actually pulled off here- an unflinchingly romantic score in a time that was beginning to modernize and change much more rapidly with each passing year, in very different ways. And the part at 0:55 in the main theme until the end...that's the stuff of why someone can dream the crazy dream of wanting to write music to images. Two thumbs, way the hell up for James Horner's '_The Mask of Zorro_'.


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## handz (Nov 14, 2021)

GNP said:


> Yes, it borrows from Spanish culture, but ultimately to tell the actual story itself. Horner's still a legend to me.
> 
> I'm not personally a big fan of borrowing hugely from cultural music to tell a story about that culture. It just feels rather gimmicky and in fact, concealing. I prefer not to let cultural romanticisms distract away from the story itself. Just wanna tell it like it is.


I highly concur, I think that using folk / regional music in period films or films that are based in countries with a very distinctive music style is a must and helps with adding the right atmosphere. Unless it is some "modern take" on it where you will use punk music in 16th century France. Which I personally hate.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Nov 14, 2021)

Love the movie, love the score. It has a lot of heart, which I miss in a lot of the too-cool-for-school movies we get these days.


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## ryans (Nov 14, 2021)

One of Horner's best scores.


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## GNP (Nov 15, 2021)

handz said:


> I highly concur, I think that using folk / regional music in period films or films that are based in countries with a very distinctive music style is a must and helps with adding the right atmosphere. Unless it is some "modern take" on it where you will use punk music in 16th century France. Which I personally hate.


I'm fine with modern takes on period films, in fact I'd much rather go that way than to just "be period about it". However, no matter which approach is made, there has to be a purpose to it, in light of the how the story unfolds.


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## GNP (Nov 15, 2021)

Jish said:


> However, take away the frenetic pace and timbre of dancing shoes, the trumpet's, cliche acoustic guitar touches...it just would lose so much, atleast for me.


In today's world, however, I'd completely avoid all those cultural cliches, especially when it comes to 2-dimensional positive depictions.

If I had to approach Zorro in today's world, and if I had to use dancing shoes and flamenco, I'd use them in a completely different way. I'd probably use "romanticism" not in a hero or romantic scene, but maybe perhaps, if a character is getting executed for crimes he/she didn't commit. Imagine the juxtaposition of watching that character hang, while cliched flamenco guitars are being played. That would be a way more interesting framing and usage of the "cliches".

If I had to approach a remake of any Chinese classic, like Wong Fei Hung or Romance of The Three Kingdoms, likewise, I'd employ some period instruments, but I'd frame them in a completely different way. I might even use fucking electric guitars. I'd go more minimalistic in a "Confucian" way, where it takes more effort for the audience to pick up the meanings of human values. I'd avoid using Chinese percussion for heroic or fight scenes, but instead, might place them elsewhere unexpected, maybe in moments where characters hit a realization or a revelation in themselves. Or if they're just sitting drinking tea (where I'd fucking avoid the cliche of 'tranquil wisdom').

It ultimately depends on which demographic target the film itself is aiming for. If it's for the Lowest Common Denominator, everything gets rather boring. If it's for a more intelligent audience, that would allow me to dabble in stuff like the above mentioned.

Alot of people often forget that a film composer's approach to scoring anything really depends on the intended target demographic, and the nature of the film itself. A commercial thing has to be commercial, an arthouse has to be arthouse. Morons squabbling over each others' tastes without being aware of what the intended demographic is for, is just plain tragic.


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## dcoscina (Nov 15, 2021)

Zorro arrived at the twilight of what I would ascribe as Silver Age scoring. Its mandate was still overt melodicism, rich harmonies and motives or themes associated with characters. There was little if no ambience or sound tapestries employed. As a child of the 70s, and someone who was inspired to study music, it was film scores such as this and of course the seminal work of Herrmann, Goldsmith, Williams, Barry, Schifrin, etc etc that garnered enthusiasm. 

I know today's film scene in general poo-poos this approach, but I think we are far poorer for it... my opinion only.


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## GNP (Nov 15, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Zorro arrived at the twilight of what I would ascribe as Silver Age scoring. Its mandate was still overt melodicism, rich harmonies and motives or themes associated with characters. There was little if no ambience or sound tapestries employed. As a child of the 70s, and someone who was inspired to study music, it was film scores such as this and of course the seminal work of Herrmann, Goldsmith, Williams, Barry, Schifrin, etc etc that garnered enthusiasm.
> 
> I know today's film scene in general poo-poos this approach, but I think we are far poorer for it... my opinion only.


I think there's still room for such today, except you'll have to reframe your melodies, harmonies and motifs in more interesting ways. 

This is filmscoring - dramatic effect hinges on a very delicate sense of how much you want to spoonfeed the audience. It's more psychology than just music. Sorry, but this takes precedence over just musical concerns.


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## dcoscina (Nov 15, 2021)

GNP said:


> I think there's still room for such today, except you'll have to reframe your melodies, harmonies and motifs in more interesting ways.
> 
> This is filmscoring - dramatic effect hinges on a very delicate sense of how much you want to spoonfeed the audience. It's more psychology than just music. Sorry, but this takes precedence over just musical concerns.


The few media projects I take are independent with already established relationships with directors who prefer traditional scoring techniques.


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## Robin Thompson (Nov 15, 2021)

GNP said:


> I'm fine with modern takes on period films, in fact I'd much rather go that way than to just "be period about it". However, no matter which approach is made, there has to be a purpose to it, in light of the how the story unfolds.


Agree. I think it might help to imagine if the scene you're working on were set in an American context (or whatever cultural context you're most familiar with). Would you be using ethnically/culturally specific music to establish the atmosphere of a specific place or time? You very well might be - it could be a context analogous to using western music or New Orleans jazz or 70s disco to establish a particular mood. But if you wouldn't be doing that, then you shouldn't start just because the action happens to be taking place in another country.

As for Zorro, it's a wonderfully luscious and thrilling score. But it can't touch Wrath of Khan.


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## dcoscina (Nov 15, 2021)

Robin Thompson said:


> Agree. I think it might help to imagine if the scene you're working on were set in an American context (or whatever cultural context you're most familiar with). Would you be using ethnically/culturally specific music to establish the atmosphere of a specific place or time? You very well might be - it could be a context analogous to using western music or New Orleans jazz or 70s disco to establish a particular mood. But if you wouldn't be doing that, then you shouldn't start just because the action happens to be taking place in another country.
> 
> As for Zorro, it's a wonderfully luscious and thrilling score. But it can't touch Wrath of Khan.


I will take Rocketeer over WoK personally. Horner's triumph deluxe.


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## GNP (Nov 15, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> The few media projects I take are independent with already established relationships with directors who prefer traditional scoring techniques.


That's great. Although I do suggest you make more connections who expect you to do other kinds of things as well. In my last 20 years, I'm pushed out of my comfort zone, not by my own discipline, but by getting jobs that simply need me to *deliver* other kinds of ways of writing. I used to be extremely anxious everytime that happens, but I've learned to adapt and realized I can still get away with it. I just had to implement my own voice in a different way.  Sounds lame but I eventually got much better at handling things out of my zones over the years.

It was necessity that did that for me, not flamboyant, edgy ambition.

*The problem with ambition alone, is that you have all the freedom to just walk it back whenever you conveniently feel like it.** In other words, it's as good as having none at all.*

*Necessity is what will throw you into the boiling pot itself, and you are FORCED to either swim, or die.*


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## dcoscina (Nov 16, 2021)

GNP said:


> That's great. Although I do suggest you make more connections who expect you to do other kinds of things as well. In my last 20 years, I'm pushed out of my comfort zone, not by my own discipline, but by getting jobs that simply need me to *deliver* other kinds of ways of writing. I used to be extremely anxious everytime that happens, but I've learned to adapt and realized I can still get away with it. I just had to implement my own voice in a different way.  Sounds lame but I eventually got much better at handling things out of my zones over the years.
> 
> It was necessity that did that for me, not flamboyant, edgy ambition.
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstand. I’m in my mid 50s. I stopped working in film a while ago and moved to concert composing. I’m not aiming to be the next Hans Zimmer or John Williams or whoever… that ship sailed long ago. The few commercial projects I take are for people I’ve worked with in the past.


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## MP (Mar 25, 2022)

Actions cues are exquisite in that score (as often with Mr Horner !)


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