# New Gamble piece



## Evan Gamble (May 26, 2006)

Hey Ladies :razz: 

Here's one I Finally finished a couple days ago-If you like the incredibles you should enjoy this..

http://www.evangamble.com/music/Raw_Bone_Energy.mp3

( The title is an anagram of the Trumpet player that was sampled  )


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## Frederick Russ (May 26, 2006)

Interesting joust Evan - best I've heard from you! Nice turns and changes. You keep it interesting and the mix sounds cool. Keep it up!


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## ComposerDude (May 26, 2006)

Yes, I enjoyed the Incredibles and this one too.

Nice work Evan!

One item, though I love reverb, IMO this has a tad too much. What would it sound like with about 30% shorter MidRT? (i.e. if it's 1.8 seconds now, make it 1.2 seconds)

-Peter


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## Evan Gamble (May 27, 2006)

Thanks guys! 

I'lll do some experiments with the reverb soon.


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## Craig Sharmat (May 27, 2006)

Your improvement is coming along nicely. You have made great strides in a small amount of time. As Peter says nice "Incredibles" vibe. Some of the staccatos seem mistimed a little bit from the end. At about 2/3rds through when the music comes down and the flute shows, it could use a little more texture. Ending is nice.


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## KevinKauai (May 27, 2006)

Interesting and entertaining piece, Evan. Did you mean to hit the *CLIP* level quite so often? I've been told that clipping really ads nothing but "digitial distraction" to the final mix and to avoid it whenever possible. I counted 16 or 17 instances in your piece (before I stopped counting).

 KevinKauai


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## Evan Gamble (May 27, 2006)

-Thanks Craig for listening-those are all good points.

-What do you mean by clipping Kevin? I know its close to the red zone often but not too the point of popping or distortion right?(which is what I consider clipping). Thanks for listening too :smile:


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## KevinKauai (May 27, 2006)

*A Short Primer on CLIPPING*

“Clipping” is generally the result of feeding a too-strong signal into the sound file. Here’s an older (but still relevant) online article from “Ken Stone’s Final Cut Pro” which is an interest resource for the definition which popped up on the top of the GOOGLE list when I searched for “audio clipping”: http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/dv ... peaks.html

In that, Stone defines clipping in very clear terms: “The most important thing to remember when working with digital audio is that hitting 0 dB will cause digital clipping which can produce a horrific sound.” Most sequencers have a clipping indicator while you are working and when you are checking the final mix. Mine is Cubase SX3 is like this: 




(Yes, I intentionally set the output level above "0" so as to cause the clip and capture this graphic.)

Here is a snapshot of your MP3 file from SoundForge. 





I’ve marked three rectangles which indicate when the signal is “bouncing against the edges”, which correspond to some of the clips I observed. Many times, clipping doesn’t produce an audible horror on your particular equipment (perhaps because of protective circuitry which guards against it?) but, in general, it’s something your mixes should get NEAR, but not exceed. In general, you want to pack as much "signal" into your finished audio file as you can -- but packing in TOO MUCH results in compromising the quality.

At least, thems my $0.02 … i hope this helps ...  KevinKauai


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## sbkp (May 28, 2006)

That's not necessarily clipping. Clipping is *not* hitting 0db. Clipping is attempting to go past 0db and getting a squared-off waveform. You'd have to zoom in to see whether or not that's happening.


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## KevinKauai (May 28, 2006)

Uh . . Stefan --

The RED Clip indicator lit up each time. What would you call that? I just included the snapshot as a shorthand.

 KevinKauai


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## choc0thrax (May 28, 2006)

What does it matter if you can't hear any clipping.


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## Evan Gamble (May 28, 2006)

Thanks alot Kevin for the detailed explanation. 

Though I am curious too, why does it matter if it isn't audible? Or is it and its just me not hearing it?

Seriously I appreciate you taking the time to explain. :razz:


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## KevinKauai (May 28, 2006)

> What does it matter if you can't hear it.


Since this wasn't phrased in a question, this has been disqualified.


> ... I am curious, too, why does it matter if it isn't audible? Or is it and its just me not hearing it?


Perception is very subjective. It's like the hint of basil that one can taste in a lovely, yet subtle, dish and others "cannot".

I think part of the community here would be very PURIST about clipping, and, quite obviously, others aren't. Believe it or not, clipping is perceived on some level, usually as additional distortion. Inspect high-quality symphonic recordings; you will NEVER find them much about -3.0 dB. There's a reason for that.

Sorry if this side-discussion has belabored the point. It's still a nice piece, Evan!

 KevinKauai


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## choc0thrax (May 28, 2006)

KevinKauai @ Sun May 28 said:


> > What does it matter if you can't hear it.


Since this wasn't phrased in a question, this has been disqualified.


> Technically you still answered me so I guess I win.


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## JacquesMathias (May 28, 2006)

Evan,

just use a Master Limiter. There is many these days. A very popular choice would be L1 of Waves. It will avoid the clipping. You can use it just to hold a little bit. When you do your bounce your audio track always will stop at 0DB. Not just visualy.

Best :smile:


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## Alex W (May 28, 2006)

cool writing Evan


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## sbkp (May 28, 2006)

KevinKauai @ Sun May 28 said:


> Uh . . Stefan --
> 
> The RED Clip indicator lit up each time. What would you call that? I just included the snapshot as a shorthand.
> 
> KevinKauai



Well, Evan and Choco asked the correct question: What does it matter if you can't hear any distortion?

But since you asked... I actually don't know (and couldn't find in the help file) at what point Cubase lights up the meter. But from my experience, I think it lights at -0.1db, which is technically a clip warning. Well, no... I take that back. I listened to the file in Cubase SX3 and didn't see the clip light come on. The levels are definitely pushed to the max, as the meter peak reads 0.0. But no clip light for me.

At any rate, a red light doesn't necessarily mean anything is clipping. If you really want to be pure about it, then you could zoom in on the wave and see if you have any flat tops or bottoms. _That_ is what clipping looks like. Observe:

http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C

Now that I've brought this into Cubase, I zoom in, and I don't see any clipping in the waveform, either.

If it sounds good, it _is_ good.

Ciao,
Stefan

P.S. I like the piece, Evan. It reminds me of "Lizzy." Do they come from the same lineage?


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## Evan Gamble (May 28, 2006)

thanks Jacques, Alex, and Stefan. 

Should look into a limiter as I don't have one. I don't remember exactly what I did when mastering but Im pretty sure that I compressed it a bit since i wanted to get it pretty ballsy. I knew the wave was peaking-but guess Im not a purist, as long as it sounds Ok. 

You think this sounds like "Lizzy" Stefan? Interesting-i wouldn't have thought that. Definitely wasn't thinking of it when writing this.


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## sbkp (May 28, 2006)

The eighth-note rhythm and the harp glisses mostly. It doesn't sound like the same piece, just part of the same vibe as the first section of "Lizzy".


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## ComposerDude (May 29, 2006)

Two points:

1) Since digital audio cannot represent values in excess of 0.0 dBFS, to analyze a piece outside the original studio that produced it (i.e. without access to the source audio and the digital mixer's clip indicators) clipping must be *defined* as a certain run of consecutive 0.0 dBFS samples.

If you have one fullscale sample, it probably just touched 0.0 dBFS. If you have two fullscale samples, the peak still could be within the amplitude resolution of 0.0 dBFS. Usually clipping is identified with THREE or more consecutive 0.0 dBFS samples, inferring that in all probability the waveform was not originally flat-topped at that point and therefore clipping must have occurred.

2) Apparently the digital-to-analog converter designs in some players "overshoot" on the analog side such that a 0.0dBFS peak is not the limit for the ANALOG peak reproduced on playback; as a result, in a playback system that does not allow additional headroom on the analog side beyond the steady-state maximum output level of the DAC, a perfectly valid fullscale peak can cause the analog circuitry to clip because the signal actually overshoots the peak a little.


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## Waywyn (Jun 8, 2006)

Hey Evan,

really cool stuff  enjoyed that piece ...

as for the limiting clipping thing. even if it clips or not, i would ALWAYS suggest to use a limiter, even if the limiter is just there and placed in the insert.

some people say they never use a limiter or a multiband compressor but to me these are essential things, because you can make a good mix without compressing and limiting too much.

if you have a glass which can hold like half a litre, you won't fill it up until the edge everytime, right? think you got me


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## Niah (Jun 8, 2006)

Nice job Evan !

No clipping here either.


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## Evan Gamble (Jun 8, 2006)

Thanks Guys

-Could you suggest a limiter Alex? I know your a plug-in whore and prolly know almost all that's out there :razz:


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## Waywyn (Jun 8, 2006)

naaah ... i just care a bit :mrgreen:

i know it is mostly 90% about composing and the arrangement itself, but what is all compositional knowledge if the waveforms don't get their attention


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## Evan Gamble (Jun 9, 2006)

Waywyn @ Fri Jun 09 said:


> naaah ... i just care a bit :mrgreen:
> 
> i know it is mostly 90% about composing and the arrangement itself, but what is all compositional knowledge if the waveforms don't get their attention



Oh I agree! But could you recommend a limiter?


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## Waywyn (Jun 9, 2006)

yeh sure, but depends on how much money you want to spend:

there is one for free which is called TL maximizer: http://hem.bredband.net/tbtaudio/

also there are some more free plugs, i remember there is also a free one from kjaerhus.

the next thing would the voxengo elephant 2.
i think for this price it is the best limiter out there. (around 70 bucks or so)

if you want to spend much more you might want to check out waves l2, ozone ... 

if you want to spend hellovalotmore get a powercore and the MD3 mastering suite


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## Evan Gamble (Jun 9, 2006)

Thanks Alex! I'll be trying some of these out :razz:


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