# Who should I listen to for Vietnamese, Filipino, and Chinese composers?



## DennyB (Jun 28, 2021)

I need to write some romantic orchestral music and I would like to (tastefully) blend identifiable but not cliched or offensive aspects of Vietnamese, Filipino, Chinese, and American music (these are the racial/cultural components of the romantic protagonists). I’ve got the American/Hollywood sound in my ear, but I need some help on the Chinese sound and 100% start-from-zero help on the Vietnamese and Filipino sounds.

I want to tread lightly and tastefully- I would rather overmix the American sound that I know than make an a** out of myself by making something cliched and offensive by not doing my cultural homework.

so with all of that: any recommendations? 

thanks!


----------



## cygnusdei (Jun 28, 2021)

The Butterfly Lovers violin concerto and the Yellow River piano concerto (which in turn was adapted from the Yellow River cantata) by now are considered to be Chinese masterpieces in the concert repertoire. It's easier to refer to them by the titles because unlike in Western tradition, each piece is a work of multiple composers.


----------



## DennyB (Jun 28, 2021)

Thank you!! Off to listen!


----------



## Jorgakis (Jun 29, 2021)

I don't know if it's too cliche for you, but the soundtrack for genshin impact (liyue) does actually this (written by a chinese composer):


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic (Jun 29, 2021)

Great project Denny! I know you specified Romantic, but this is one of my favourites when it comes to Chinese-flavoured soundtracks: 

Which in turn inspired my own take on a piece:


----------



## DennyB (Jun 29, 2021)

Thanks Chris! This is super, I love the piece. I really like thematic music where you have a great melody and then sort of indulge in it and variations of it for a while (legends of the fall is one of my favorites for that). It lets you enter that space and really dwell in it instead of getting a brief taste and then off to something else.

I did a rescore (just as a hobby) of the Red Cliff trailer from like 15 years ago (John Woo). I’ll see if I can post it up here.

thanks for the tips! Love your channel, btw.


----------



## DennyB (Jun 29, 2021)

Jorgakis said:


> I don't know if it's too cliche for you, but the soundtrack for genshin impact (liyue) does actually this (written by a chinese composer):



Thank you! This is great stuff to put the sounds in my ear. I like how it does seem to blend styles - it’s clearly not anchored in pentatonic, for example.


----------



## Jorgakis (Jun 30, 2021)

DennyB said:


> Thank you! This is great stuff to put the sounds in my ear. I like how it does seem to blend styles - it’s clearly not anchored in pentatonic, for example.


Yeah it's rather jazzy, or jazz-ballad-y at times, which is found throughout modern asian music (Korea, Japan and China). I'm not sure about Vietnam and Indonesia though


----------



## thesteelydane (Jun 30, 2021)

Vietnam doesn't really have many orchestral composers, although of course there are some. If you really want to immerse yourself in a sound/style that any Vietnamese person would instantly identify as quintessential Vietnamese, I would listen to the songs of Trịnh Công Sơn. I don't think there's a Vietnamese person alive who don't know his songs.

Of course you could also get into real traditional Vietnamese music, but then you're completely leaving western tonality and tuning.

Source: I have lived in Vietnam since 2013.


----------



## Nando Florestan (Jun 30, 2021)

For Chinese music, do not miss Zhou Long's "Poems from Tang".
Here is one of them, although I prefer the version for full symphonic orchestra:


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic (Jun 30, 2021)

DennyB said:


> Thanks Chris! This is super, I love the piece. I really like thematic music where you have a great melody and then sort of indulge in it and variations of it for a while (legends of the fall is one of my favorites for that). It lets you enter that space and really dwell in it instead of getting a brief taste and then off to something else.
> 
> I did a rescore (just as a hobby) of the Red Cliff trailer from like 15 years ago (John Woo). I’ll see if I can post it up here.
> 
> thanks for the tips! Love your channel, btw.


Thank you so much! All the best with your journey.


----------



## DennyB (Jun 30, 2021)

DennyB said:


> I did a rescore (just as a hobby) of the Red Cliff trailer from like 15 years ago (John Woo). I’ll see if I can post it up here.


Here is a rescore of the trailer for John Woo's Red Cliff that I did this past year. I really enjoy the whole genre of Asian romantic battle epic and would love people's feedback. For this next project, I may go down this road but with a gentler, more romantic spin.


----------



## DennyB (Jun 30, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> For Chinese music, do not miss Zhou Long's "Poems from Tang".
> Here is one of them, although I prefer the version for full symphonic orchestra:



This is really cool. I am enjoying how much these recommendations are helping me find the shared sound but also see a much broader range than I was previously aware of. Thank you!


----------



## DennyB (Jun 30, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> Vietnam doesn't really have many orchestral composers, although of course there are some. If you really want to immerse yourself in a sound/style that any Vietnamese person would instantly identify as quintessential Vietnamese, I would listen to the songs of Trịnh Công Sơn. I don't think there's a Vietnamese person alive who don't know his songs.
> 
> Of course you could also get into real traditional Vietnamese music, but then you're completely leaving western tonality and tuning.
> 
> Source: I have lived in Vietnam since 2013.


I was reminded of a John Williams interview when he did memoirs of a geisha, that he was excited to use Japanese traditional instruments without writing Japanese music per se. I'm wondering if doing something like that would help build a cultural bridge. The trick would be to stay on this side of the cultural appropriation line.


----------



## Nando Florestan (Jul 1, 2021)

You know, if Tchaikovsky had been worried about "cultural appropriation" when he wrote his ballets, the best parts would be gone. Forget about his Capriccio Italien, and forget about Korsakov's Capricho Espagnol... Debussy couldn't have written Images pour orchestre, Ravel couldn't have written Alborada del Gracioso or Bolero...

Where does this stop? Should Jules Verne have refrained from writing Miguel Strogoff???

"Cultural appropriation" is not applicable to any of this. You are a composer. Whatever inspires you. Write. (It's hard enough without this nonsense.) Criticism should come much, much later.


----------



## DennyB (Jul 1, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> You are a composer. Whatever inspires you. Write. (It's hard enough without this nonsense.) Criticism should come much, much later.


I like this.


----------



## cygnusdei (Jul 1, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> You know, if Tchaikovsky had been worried about "cultural appropriation" when he wrote his ballets, the best parts would be gone. Forget about his Capriccio Italien, and forget about Korsakov's Capricho Espagnol... Debussy couldn't have written Images pour orchestre, Ravel couldn't have written Alborada del Gracioso or Bolero...
> 
> Where does this stop? Should Jules Verne have refrained from writing Miguel Strogoff???
> 
> "Cultural appropriation" is not applicable to any of this. You are a composer. Whatever inspires you. Write. (It's hard enough without this nonsense.) Criticism should come much, much later.


It's an interesting subject. My take is regardless of the label, it's really about whether you understand the style to the point of being able to pull off something authentic, and that is proof enough that you respect the tradition instead of exploiting it.

A more modern example would be Iggy Azalea, who was marketed as the white girl rapper but was universally panned by the hip-hop community. To them she was nothing but a poseur.


----------



## DennyB (Jul 1, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> My take is regardless of the label, it's really about whether you understand the style to the point of being able to pull off something authentic, and that is proof enough that you respect the tradition instead of exploiting it.


I agree, it’s interesting. I guess one question is ‘what is authentic’? The first person who performed on a distorted electric violin (I’m guessing, but run with the scenario) could be accused of taking something and being wholly un-authentic; maybe they did no research at all. And yet I feel like those people are heralded as pioneers. Maybe it’s more about being authentic to yourself as an artist who collaborates -directly or indirectly - with other people and cultures. If you are trying to claim your unresearched music is authentic hip-hop or authentic Vietnamese because you hope to profit somehow from that false authenticity, that seems like the artistic party foul. If you are authentic to yourself and make no claims other than to have made a musical thing - but are not claiming to *be* anything other than who you are- that seems like legit collaboration.


----------



## Daren Audio (Jul 1, 2021)

Traditional Vietnamese music is quite challenging if one is used to Western-style music.
I just bought a Vietnamese Dan Bau Vst from Bolder Sounds. I didn't think anyone would ever make a VST out of it. I'm also planning to integrate this instrument into modern-style songs.


----------



## cygnusdei (Jul 2, 2021)

DennyB said:


> I agree, it’s interesting. I guess one question is ‘what is authentic’? The first person who performed on a distorted electric violin (I’m guessing, but run with the scenario) could be accused of taking something and being wholly un-authentic; maybe they did no research at all. And yet I feel like those people are heralded as pioneers. Maybe it’s more about being authentic to yourself as an artist who collaborates -directly or indirectly - with other people and cultures. If you are trying to claim your unresearched music is authentic hip-hop or authentic Vietnamese because you hope to profit somehow from that false authenticity, that seems like the artistic party foul. If you are authentic to yourself and make no claims other than to have made a musical thing - but are not claiming to *be* anything other than who you are- that seems like legit collaboration.


Maybe each composer would have to decide for himself what authentic means. But to borrow an analogy from the world of cuisine: with ethnic restaurants, the first question asked would be, is it authentic? (same goes with first accolade). But it's a different story with fusion cuisine where the premise is combination of eclectic elements, in which case a wide latitude is afforded the chef.


----------



## DennyB (Jul 2, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> But it's a different story with fusion cuisine where the premise is combination of eclectic elements, in which case a wide latitude is afforded the chef.


I think you nailed it.


----------



## cygnusdei (Jul 3, 2021)

Just for fun, here is Busoni, an Italian composer, 'appropriating' _Greensleeves_, an English folk song, for his opera _Turandot_ which is about ancient Chinese monarchy, sung in German!


----------

