# Cubase Midi CC control by automation or as part of Midi track - Pros & Cons?



## Harry (Dec 26, 2016)

I've always controlled my Midi CC in Cubase (eg modulation, expression etc) recorded as part of the Midi track, then edited in the key editor.

Its also possible to have Midi cc recorded as automation.

What's the pros and cons of the 2 methods?


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## JohannesR (Dec 26, 2016)

A great thing about using automation data is that you can have a motorized midi controller (such as Avid artist series) chase midi automation.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 26, 2016)

I have never been crystal clear on this, as far as I understand it the key editor ccs apply to the part, and the automation ccs (which are buried under click name/ then More/MIDI channel/All MIDI Ccs) 'belong' to the track. Thus the MIDI ccs for the track don't move with the part? Whereas the Key Editor Cc info chases events - that is if you move the part (or a few notes) the cc info follows it.
I seem to remember there was a way to tranfer Key Editor ccs to automation ccs and vica-versa, though I cannot find this at the moment.

I could be wrong on both points. I should like to know

Z


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## ZeroZero (Dec 27, 2016)

Hi I have just spent all day trying to nail this issue once and for all, with the help of my long time CUbase friend and expert Victor. Here is a post I made to which he replied: https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=250&t=109426

Basically, you need to control cc values through automation lanes like you need a hole in the head. It can be done, but the whole process is obscure and difficult. Automation lanes DO show the same CC datas as are found in the Key Editor BUT if you write in the Automation lane this does *not *show up at all in the Key editor, UNLESS the read button for the track is enabled and EVEN then it does not show up as you would normally expect, but as a fient line.
Even more confusing it is possible to write cc automation AND Key Editor CC information and they will conflict. If you do this AND you have the write button enabled, you will see BOTH in the key editor - one as 'traditional' data curve and the other as a grey line. Confused? you will be...

Whether your data is written to an automation lane or to a key editor is controlled by the "MIDI Controller Automation Set up panel". Here you can adjust it for either, or customise for each individual cc seperately (you would need to be a sadist to add more complications).

It is also possible to convert one type to another. You can use the MIDI Menu>Functions>Extract MIDI Automation, to convert CC# data in a MIDI Part into an automation lane, but, for the converse, you have to use "Merge MIDI in Loop" - which ONLY merges the MIDI in the loop. I have found anomalies with this.

As you can see this is about as easy as memorizing War and Peace verbatim.

However...

There is a work around if your goal is to see MIDI CC in the Project view.

If you enable the button "edit in place" in the track control settings, then open this, you will see a mini key editor in the project window. When this opens you may or may not see the controller lanes. The way you get control over what lanes are shown here (in the project window) is to head to the very bottom of the vertical piano keyboard tool in this pane and right click. This will bring up the familiar "create controller lane" tools. Now you can view what you want. Lastly, if you want to enlarge the view of a controller lane, you have to head for the gap between the piano roll and the lane, if you mouse fiddle you can click and drag to resize. This cannot be done in the main part of the window.

So, in short, I think it is very wise to forget automating CCs, and if you want to see CCs in the project menu use the above method instead.

Zero


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 27, 2016)

Trying to merge the two is a world of pain for sure. But just going with one or the other is fine, imo, as long as you're set up to avoid conflicts. I usually use automation as that's what works for EuCon CC control, you can't use midi data for that. Given a straight choice I'd prefer it in the key editor, but it's not an especially big deal for me.


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## heisenberg (Dec 27, 2016)

I am relatively new to this DAW and have been struggling with this issue since I began. There are a few helpful things on different forums and YouTube instructional videos, however, you individuals have struck on something very important and that is the key editor and what you can do with it.

In essence what I have found is, automation in Cubase (I use Nuendo with NEK which is essentially Cubase with timecode functionality and a few other things) is straight forward if the VST has "Quick Controls" with the things you would most likely want to automate. You probably know this but if you don't, load up a VST and expose the Quick Controls at the bottom of the left-hand navbar in the arrange window. If you see the assignments you need there, you are good and controller assignment can be adjusted relatively easily through "Device Control". If the Quick Controls have NOT been assigned, then you get into the grief that's been stated in this thread.

I cross verified this finding by loading up the same VSTs in Ableton Live and found that any MIDI controllable parameter that was automatable in Cubendo (Cubase or Nuendo) on record was also automatable in Live but if it wasn't automatable in Cubase it wasn't automatable in Live, as well. So at least we know Cubase isn't so much the issue as it is VST vendors that are not making the proper hooks to allow easily automatable midi parameters in their instruments.

What I have gleaned (and most users of Cubase know) is there are several ways of controlling / altering midi communication. There are the device controls where you can remap midi communication through (1) Mackie Controls, (2) Generic Controls, (3) Quick Controls, (4) the Midi Transformer and finally there is the (5) Midi Key Control area that you have outlined here.

If the software vendor has mapped the controls you want to affect to what amount to Cubase Quick Controls, automation is easy capture, if not, things get way more difficult.

There is a thread on the Steinberg forum that goes over using the Midi Transformer in the context being talked about in this thread but it is opaque to me. Some others here might have luck with it...

https://japan.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=83384

I am heartened by the mention here that you can edit and control midi CCs in the Key Editor which worked for me. What this verifies is that you CAN control midi CCs through Cubase. There HAS to be a way to properly automate this without doing handstands. There are too many people who use Cubase and Nuendo in film score work for this not to be the case.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 28, 2016)

Hi, if your new to Cubase it pays to get to know the key editor well. Regarding controller lanes, you can save preset 'views' with different lanes showing. You can also use Note expression to control Cc's values on a note by note basis - which is often important.

Zero


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## Niles (Dec 29, 2016)

Harry said:


> Its also possible to have Midi cc recorded as automation.
> 
> What's the pros and cons of the 2 methods?


Automation is ASIO buffer size dependent and regular MIDI CC's aren't. In other words controller data recorded as automation will sound different when using an ASIO buffer size of 128 compared to an ASIO buffer size of 512 samples.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 29, 2016)

Niles said:


> Automation is ASIO buffer size dependent and regular MIDI CC's aren't. In other words controller data recorded as automation will sound different when using an ASIO buffer size of 128 compared to an ASIO buffer size of 512 samples.



How will they sound different and why? Curious. 

Z


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## Whatisvalis (Dec 29, 2016)

ZeroZero said:


> How will they sound different and why? Curious.
> 
> Z



I would imagine it changes the playback resolution?


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## ZeroZero (Dec 29, 2016)

This would be a serious flaw if true. I am skeptical


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## Whatisvalis (Dec 29, 2016)

Heisenberg - if a VSTi / VST has parameters that can be MIDI learned then you can control them from the MIDI track CC lane in Cubase. Some VSTi require you to enable host automation (Omnisphere being one). 

Quick Controls are a fast way to map a control, and handy for setting up instrument / audio ch control templates.


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## Whatisvalis (Dec 29, 2016)

ZeroZero said:


> This would be a serious flaw if true. I am skeptical


https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=75577


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## ZeroZero (Dec 29, 2016)

Ok, So I may be wrong. I glazed over.


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## Niles (Dec 29, 2016)

ZeroZero said:


> This would be a serious flaw if true. I am skeptical


Of course you don't have to take my word for it. You can easily test it yourself by automating a parameter and bounce/render/export the result on 128 and 1024 for example. After that you can also do the same with MIDI CC's and compare all bounces/exports/renders.

For me this is one of the reasons to use Cubase over Studio One when working with virtual instruments. Because no matter how brilliant Studio One's Control Link system is, the Part Automation (Studio One's continuous controller data equivalent for VST instruments) is just like Cubase's automation, buffer size dependent. Unlike Cubase, Studio One does not have the option to use traditional CC data for virtual instruments.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 29, 2016)

I am convinced now you are right. I have already decided not to use MIDI cc automation - ever - because it is such a faff and conflicts with Key Editor cc's. I use expression maps, so use the key editor. Also I found a way to show controller data in the project window - without automation lanes

Z


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## heisenberg (Dec 29, 2016)

Whatisvalis said:


> Heisenberg - if a VSTi / VST has parameters that can be MIDI learned then you can control them from the MIDI track CC lane in Cubase. Some VSTi require you to enable host automation (Omnisphere being one). Quick Controls are a fast way to map a control...



Appreciate yours and Zero's assistance. I finally cracked the problem I was having. The issue was with getting the CC assignment from parameters in a Kontakt Library to adhere to a quick control. The solution was in Kontakt under the "Automation" Folder tab in the left hand side of the fully exposed Kontakt instance. Once in there you expose the "Host Automation" sub-folder tab and then drag your unassigned quick control parameters to the item in the Kontakt Instance GUI that you want to automate. Rinse & repeat the rest of the Quick Control items that you want to automate.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 29, 2016)

Well, that's not working here, I get red no entry signs. What exactly do you mean? Where do you find your "unassigned quick control parameter" Are you talking of dragging from a knob in the rack or from an empty slot in the instrument inspector? Both dont seem to work here...?
Z


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## ZeroZero (Dec 29, 2016)

I wonder about this way: Go to your quick controls, ensure learn is off. Click on a slot, the drop down list appears with Kontakt in it. Go to the entry marked Kontakt, open - various instrument specific parameters found here, select one. I am using instrument tracks in Cubase.


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## heisenberg (Dec 29, 2016)

Here is a screenshot.






Everything before the drag and drop to the controls in the Cello Instrument GUI on the left hand side was showing as "#001 not assigned, #002 not assigned and so on". I would drag each item in the Host Automation folder tab to the items I wanted to Automate. As you can see, I assigned Dynamics, Vibrato, Legato Type and Expression and they show up in the Quick Controls drop down area in the left hand navbar in the Cubase/Nuendo Arrange Window.

I did not engage "Learn" in the Quick Controls and the items were hooked right into the controller.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 29, 2016)

heisenberg said:


> Here is a screenshot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I cannot get that working here. When you say you drag an item from the host Cubase, what are you dragging all there is is an empty slot. 
Also did you try my method, does that work?


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## Whatisvalis (Dec 30, 2016)

heisenberg said:


> Appreciate yours and Zero's assistance. I finally cracked the problem I was having. The issue was with getting the CC assignment from parameters in a Kontakt Library to adhere to a quick control. The solution was in Kontakt under the "Automation" Folder tab in the left hand side of the fully exposed Kontakt instance. Once in there you expose the "Host Automation" sub-folder tab and then drag your unassigned quick control parameters to the item in the Kontakt Instance GUI that you want to automate. Rinse & repeat the rest of the Quick Control items that you want to automate.



I should have mentioned Kontakt as being one of the instruments you have to enable host automation on for QC to show up.


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## Whatisvalis (Dec 30, 2016)

ZeroZero said:


> Well I cannot get that working here. When you say you drag an item from the host Cubase, what are you dragging all there is is an empty slot.
> Also did you try my method, does that work?



You drag a control from the kontKt instrument to the unassigned bar on the left - after you have done that you should be able to learn it to a QC.


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## JaikumarS (Jun 20, 2017)

Hello All,

I have been trying to create a Generic Remote on Cubase Pro 9 using my Korg nanoKontrol(2010) for writing my midi cc data.

I had used the learn function and assigned the Faders to Cubase; but I am not sure what needs to be selected in the Device, Channel/Category, Value/Action for my nanoKontrol faders to control them as below

Fader 1 - cc1 -Modulation
Fader 2 - cc2 -Breath Control
Fader 3 - cc11-Expression
Fader 4 - cc7-Main Volume
Fader 5 - cc21-Dynamics (Spitfire Instruments)
It would be great if you could help me on this.

Thank you.
PS: I am using Cubase Pro 9 on my Mac mini


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## T.j. (Jun 20, 2017)

JaikumarS said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I have been trying to create a Generic Remote on Cubase Pro 9 using my Korg nanoKontrol(2010) for writing my midi cc data.
> 
> ...



Hi Jaikumar,
there is no need to set them up in the generic remote, actually you can't!
They will work as long as you have a midi track enabled and selected the correct input(s), eg. Cubase should recognize the nanocontrol. Probably best to set it to 'all midi inputs' (if it's not listed check device setup > midi port setup)

Try to record something on a midi track while moving the modwheel, you should see the data appear underneath the notes in the midi editor, if not: rightclick under the 'key' area and choose new controller lane. 
You can set your lanes to whatever you like, basic cc's are already listed.

Hope that helps


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## JaikumarS (Jun 20, 2017)

T.j. said:


> Hi Jaikumar,
> there is no need to set them up in the generic remote, actually you can't!
> They will work as long as you have a midi track enabled and selected the correct input(s), eg. Cubase should recognize the nanocontrol. Probably best to set it to 'all midi inputs' (if it's not listed check device setup > midi port setup)
> 
> ...


Thank you T.J 
It worked. Except CC7 - Main Volume, I was able to write all other CC data with my nanoKontrol.


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## T.j. (Jun 20, 2017)

JaikumarS said:


> Thank you T.J
> It worked. Except CC7 - Main Volume, I was able to write all other CC data with my nanoKontrol.



nice!

Are you sure it's actually sending out cc7?
You can check in the program for the nano i'm sure, or use cubase to check:
somewhere in the keycommands window is an option to 'show used controllers'.
Assign it to something on your keyboard > wiggle the controller while recording > use the key command.
It should show you what channel you just recorded

P.s. i had a post on the generic remote not long ago, on how to set it up to do basic stuff (play etc.)
Let me find it..
Edit: http://vi-control.net/community/thr...base-9-for-dummies-please.62637/#post-4097744


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## JaikumarS (Jun 20, 2017)

T.j. said:


> nice!
> 
> Are you sure it's actually sending out cc7?
> You can check in the program for the nano i'm sure, or use cubase to check:
> ...


Thank you so much... Its working now


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