# There shouldn't be this much diff. in RR, should there?



## hbuus (Feb 20, 2010)

Here's a simple example using Sonivox 1st Violins Staccato Up-bow RR:
http://www.box.net/shared/a2p8a61dkj

It contains three identical sequences, allowing all 3 "Round Robins" to be played.
But notice the third time the simple sequence is being played - the first note of the sequence sounds very thin, doesn't it? It stands out, I mean.
EDIT: The note occurs at 0:03/0:04.

Is this a bug in the programming of the patch?
Or can there really be this much difference between round robin alternate takes of the same note?

Thanks.

Best,
Henrik


----------



## bryla (Feb 20, 2010)

Yes, that's just what happens in the real world. Sounds quite natural to me


----------



## Brendan (Feb 20, 2010)

There are different approaches concerning how varied RR samples should be. I had a similar sense of shock when I bought Vital Arts Plectrum. Each sample in the RR programing of that instrument is wildly different, some repetitions are even detuned. I find that when played in context with a bunch of other instruments, this kind of variation sounds very natural, but when that instrument is in the spotlight the RR cycling can create unwanted rhythms. And yes, lines will occasionally start on a weak note which can really stand out. The Plectrum library comes with a RR reset button which is handy. There have been a number of times where I've altered RR programing to avoid certain samples. 
When making my own instruments I often wonder which is the better course to take - variation or consistency? It would be interesting to know what other composers/developers think.


----------



## hbuus (Feb 21, 2010)

Ok, everything is in order then. I wasn't sure. Thanks for the replies


----------



## P.T. (Mar 17, 2010)

I know that this is a few weeks old.

NO everything is NOT in order.

It sounds natural if you are comparing to a poor musician with bad control over his instrument.

How can it sound wrong when soloed and right in a mix?

Does a good musician sound bad when soloed because of a lack of control over the instrument?

This sort of RR is a disaster.

The developers are either doing it poorly or, more likely, they are making these large differences so that they are obvious to someone trying it out. If the differences are properly subtle, many people might think, "hey, they are the same. I don't hear any RR"

It shouldn't be very obvious. The differences should be barely detectable. That is all that is needed to stop the 'machine gun' effect and to make it sound more natural.


----------



## mf (Mar 17, 2010)

Very good points.

I feel the same about RRs - a disaster. They try to "fix" a problem (the machine gun) by creating a bigger problem: 2, 3 (6, 8, etc.) DISCONNECTED machine guns.

Music playing is not done by triggering and firing notes. The notes should flow and grow from one another, meaningfully. In order to sound right and musical, the notes must connect meaningfully to each other; RRs are clearly disconnected and make for a crippled, anti-musical playing.

Developers, stop this RR nonsense.


----------



## david robinson (Mar 17, 2010)

hi,
yup.
same stuff here, all the time.
can't really say that there is an answer.
more RR's will just lead to more variations on accidentally bad rhythms.
sometime's, when i'm off the clock, i sit and listen just 4 a laff.
comedy central.
j.


----------



## synergy543 (Mar 17, 2010)

If you don't like an RR, just select an adjacent note, re-pitch it, and use that instead. Save patch.

Problem solved.

Next please.


----------



## hbuus (Mar 17, 2010)

That's a good and simple workaround, synergy.
I didn't think of that.

Best,
Henrik


----------



## mf (Mar 17, 2010)

I don't understand, where and how do you do that?


----------



## synergy543 (Mar 17, 2010)

Sonic Implants uses Kontakt. You easily do this in the Kontakt Mapping Editor by editing the RR group.

Issues such as this are why I love Kontakt over dedicated Players from both EW and VSL. Simple tasks such as this are impossible to do in the other editors.


----------



## P.T. (Mar 17, 2010)

synergy543 @ Wed Mar 17 said:


> If you don't like an RR, just select an adjacent note, re-pitch it, and use that instead. Save patch.
> 
> Problem solved.
> 
> Next please.



A Round Robin isn't just a note. It is a complete layer. If it is 4x RR it is 4 layers. Each layer could be hundreds of samples.
This is a non-solution.
Besides, the repitching of notes changes timbre.
The notes need to work with each other so that your playing will flow properly.

I think the solution is decent sample sets


----------



## synergy543 (Mar 17, 2010)

When you try to help, there's always one ass that comes out to waste your time - which is why I and others usually wouldn't answer a question such as this anymore.

PT, you don't know what you're talking about. This is a common solution used by many people on this forum and is the basis for Theodore Kreuger's Machine Gun Elimination script. You will also find this is a common solution used in many commercial libraries if you open them up and have a look.

Variations in RR and slight imperfections in samples are desirable and found in the best libraries throughout the world.

VSL is your best choice if you want close to perfection.


----------



## P.T. (Mar 18, 2010)

Nice.
First be dismissive with your "problem solved. Next" line and then when you 'solution' is found wanting you offer up belligerent name calling.

"One ass that comes out to waste your time..."
Well Mr precious time, no one asked for your help and no one is beholden to your help.

Do you always get worked up when people are less than enthusiastic about your suggestions?

I have just been pointing out problems that I see in the current sample landscape. You are not expected to agree or disagree.

I was also talking in general about RR and not the specific example in the original post.
If that wasn't clear it is my fault.

As for sounding natural, especially in an orchestral library, it doesn't.
A solo instrument will have slight variations if the player is competent, not large variations , unless the player wants a large variation.

In an orchestral section, the size tends to average out all of the little variations and will tend to be very constant, again, unless the conductor is asking the section to make a point of playing differently from note to note. Then I would expect different articulations rather than RR.

Small sections like trumpets will be more like solo instruments in that the variations will be there though slight.


----------



## mf (Mar 18, 2010)

synergy543 @ Wed Mar 17 said:


> You easily do this in the Kontakt Mapping Editor by editing the RR group.


How do I remove the RR in Mapping Editor?

Opened Kontact / loaded an instrument with four RRs / opened Mapping editor / - what next?

When I play one note repeatedly I see (in the Edit All Groups window) that it alternates <filename>rr1, <filename>rr2, <filename>rr3, <filename>rr4. How can I make it to always play only <filename>rr1?


----------



## synergy543 (Mar 18, 2010)

PT, its not "my solution" you're dismissing. You're dismissing a well-known and common solution in the industry. I was simply pointing it out for the benefit of the O.P.


----------



## synergy543 (Mar 18, 2010)

mf @ Thu Mar 18 said:


> synergy543 @ Wed Mar 17 said:
> 
> 
> > You easily do this in the Kontakt Mapping Editor by editing the RR group.
> ...


1. Open the Group Editor and make sure "Edit All Groups" is selected,
2. Click on Group Start Options,
3. You'll see "Group Strart Options" is set to RR. Change to "Always",
4. Now delete the groups you don't need (it will play all by default unless you set some limiting criteria).


----------



## germancomponist (Mar 18, 2010)

Or let them all play together and move the panning from all a little bit different...! o=<


----------



## mf (Mar 18, 2010)

sinergy, thanks! Kind of tedious to do it for all the instruments, but it solves my problem. Shouldn't they implement a general "RR disable" function in Kontakt? Or maybe a script that will apply for all instruments?

germancomponist, nice tip, thanks, but for the moment I want to hear one instrument not two. It may be useful though.


----------



## synergy543 (Mar 18, 2010)

If an RR patch is available, I would almost always prefer that over a static one. However, occasionally there is an offending bad sample that I can't tolerate and for those single instances, I prefer to just fix that one note rather than eliminate the entire RR. Either way though, its a pretty simple fix and something you really come to appreciate in Kontakt after being neutered by the other specialized players that don't allow you such free license to edit.


----------



## germancomponist (Mar 18, 2010)

synergy543 @ Wed Mar 17 said:


> ...
> 
> Issues such as this are why I love Kontakt over dedicated Players from both EW and VSL. Simple tasks such as this are impossible to do in the other editors.



+1


----------



## P.T. (Mar 18, 2010)

germancomponist @ Thu Mar 18 said:


> Or let them all play together and move the panning from all a little bit different...! o=<



This is actually a good idea!

Turn a single instrument into an instant section.
It would be better to play each part separately, but this could be fun.


----------



## Ben H (Mar 18, 2010)

EDIT


----------

