# Composer Taking Students In LA



## Dave Connor (Jul 24, 2010)

Hello Everyone,

I know there are many accomplished composers here at v.i. but also that there are some others that may be looking for instruction in composition and orchestration. 

I studied with the legendary Hal Johnson and completed his four year course over about six years. I basically teach his method of creating harmony from both linear and chordal approach with an emphasis on counterpoint. Since I also orchestrate for both mainstream Hollywood and smaller films, I would make a point of allowing students to witness live orchestral sessions, meeting the players, music contractors, copyist etc.

Below is a link to a couple of my compositions done with VSL. "Turning" is probably the best one to start with since it moves right along.

http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3848/4732.vsl

My rates are pretty much standard and not pricey at all.

Please email me if interested: [email protected]

Thanks!

Dave Connor


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 24, 2010)

Just to add a third-party endorsement, Dave is a real guy - a very experienced composer, orchestrator, pianist, and so on. And he's done a lot of teaching too.


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## eschroder (Jul 24, 2010)

Although in person is ideal... would you consider over the net? I only ask cause I don't live in LA but I do make it there once a month, so just curios if you'd entertain the idea of online.

Erick


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## Dave Connor (Jul 24, 2010)

Thank you Nick! Appreciate that endorsement.

I'm open to that Erick (and anyone else.) There may be a technical hurdle on my end for that kind of communication but I would be willing to try and make it happen. If you email me we can look into it further.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 24, 2010)

Some students are going to be very lucky to study with a guy who knows all that you know. Best of luck, Dave.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 24, 2010)

Thank you Jay! Such ringing endorsements from such quality people and first rate musicians (which I was not expecting.) Very humbled and appreciative.


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## SvK (Jul 25, 2010)

Dave ,

Ever since starting lessons with you 3 years ago, my work has improved immensely. My output is no longer an approximation of the sound in my head but instead a clear representation of it.

SvK


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## Dave Connor (Jul 26, 2010)

Thank you Steven, you were doing great things musically before you ever took a lesson. I will be lucky to continue get students with your focus and dedication.


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## midphase (Aug 1, 2010)

Hello Dave,

I think that is a fine composition.

I'd like to comment on an idea that I've brought up several times in this forum and in person to many "youngsters" who from time to time ask me for some advice.

I'm not entirely sure that a college degree is a necessity in our line of work. As a matter of fact I will say that a college degree in music for me has been pretty useless as far as getting me work. This is a business which functions on word of mouth, credits, agents and proof of quality of work (ie. demos). I've never been asked by a single person hiring me for my education level, the only people who ever ask are fellow composers.

Now...just because I think a college degree in our industry is about as useful as a thick handlebar mustache...I do feel strongly that a solid knowledge of music is key to be able to function within it.

Here's where guys like you come in...I always recommend that rather than spend $200k on a Music College, young composers consider a 2 year focused private lessons plan with a qualified composer/film composer. Personally I think that after those 2 years, a young composer would have amassed way more practical and focussed knowledge (not to mention possible real world experiences) than after 4 years of college. I think it would also be a great deal cheaper. (at $150/lesson x2/week x104 weeks = $31,200 vs. at least 3 times that for a 4 year music college).

There are a few challenges to this approach, the first and foremost is parents who has always been told by the media and society that without a college degree, your kid is doomed to a lifelong employment at fast food restaurants....this is one of the most egregious lies and distortions ever perpetuated on the population (and no doubt influenced by very profitable college and universities' bottom lines). It is important that parents realize that in certain fields, a college degree is not only unnecessary, but in some ways not as good.

The second challenge concerns money...or more precisely...how to pay for a non-student loan approved educational plan? There is no easy answer to this one as student loans are not available for kids who are interested in private education. This is a shame that I hope someone will strive to change. I believe that it's important to allow education (no matter of what different form it might take) to be available to all, and for student loans to be granted to students seeking private instruction with certified private teachers.


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## Narval (Aug 1, 2010)

midphase @ Sun Aug 01 said:


> I'm not entirely sure that a college degree is a necessity in our line of work. As a matter of fact I will say that a college degree in music for me has been pretty useless as far as getting me work.


You don't enroll to a college/university musical program to get gigs. The reason for studying music at academic level should be your desire to explore music deeper and under qualified, principle-based guidance. Plus, you have the extracurricular courses and you're also getting yourself exposed to the academic way of thinking - that's some great brains training and expanding your horizons. Imo, no such thing as "too much education," only "not enough time/money." As we all know, a composer is always learning. Academia teaches you how look at the nature of things and how to learn effectively. That's invaluable, and you don't get that elsewhere.

Sorry for this slight OT. I strongly encourage learning from working pro composers outside academia. Hands-on practical tricks are invaluable as well. Dave Connor, please consider this as an endorsement and a bump.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 1, 2010)

midphase @ Sun Aug 01 said:


> Hello Dave,
> 
> I think that is a fine composition.
> 
> ...



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## midphase (Aug 1, 2010)

"So go to college to get a solid background, then study with a guy like Dave Connor for real world stuff."

Simply not realistic. Berklee will set you back close to $200k nowadays. And then you're looking at 5-10 years barely scraping by before you can even come close to making what I would consider a livable wage.

Do you know what $200k in student loans works out to each month? 

I'm afraid that higher education for composers has become the playground of the wealthy or the fiscally irresponsible. 

Yes, private instruction doesn't give a participant the whole "college experience", but in today's world it's the only way that makes sense!


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## Dave Connor (Aug 1, 2010)

Midphase, It's true there are many people with highly successful careers in film and TV music without any college ed., or degree. So technically speaking, obviously it's not necessary. As Jay suggests, there are major benefits to the college curriculum and environment. In my case I received numerous benefits by being immersed in such a variety of all things musical in college that I would have found no where else. I carry all those things with me today which is reflected in my versatility. Also great relationships were formed that remain to this day and have benefitted me professionally as well.

So while I basically agree with Jay I do no begrudge your point as it is not vital in the current market place to earn a degree. Writing for orchestra or other more musically involved genre's does require a certain education to be sure. Private study is what helped me the most in that regard.

EDIT: I just your your point about affording an education which is of course valid. I was in the Cal State University System which was next to nothing in the 80's. So that is a separate issue than the validly of a college ed., money aside.


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## careyford (Aug 2, 2010)

Lots of really good state school programs out there that can still be done with a part time job. Not as cheap as the old days but minimum wage has doubled too. College also teaches a lot about life with a bit more safety net than the work world which for a lot of 18 year olds is useful. :oops: 

My primary teacher in college was incredible. I don't know if I was ready for some of the teachers I've had since. Also, the immersion with other musicians who were hungry to play my music was invaluable. Often this meant I wrote something and knocked on the next practice room door and had my composition played for me. During my first couple years in NYC right out of college, willing players were harder to find. 

Studying with a working pro is invaluable. A teacher and mentor like Dave will make a huge difference.

The bottom line is that there is no one right way to do it. A lifetime of learning and growing takes a lifetime after all.

Richard


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## Ashermusic (Aug 2, 2010)

careyford @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> Lots of really good state school programs out there that can still be done with a part time job. Not as cheap as the old days but minimum wage has doubled too. College also teaches a lot about life with a bit more safety net than the work world which for a lot of 18 year olds is useful. :oops:
> 
> My primary teacher in college was incredible. I don't know if I was ready for some of the teachers I've had since. Also, the immersion with other musicians who were hungry to play my music was invaluable. Often this meant I wrote something and knocked on the next practice room door and had my composition played for me. During my first couple years in NYC right out of college, willing players were harder to find.
> 
> ...



Well stated, Richard and I concur.


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 2, 2010)

While it's not necessary to have a college degree to get composing gigs, I found that it was a great musical experience and made some great connections. Composition lessons are great, but you're still missing out on getting experience playing in ensembles, taking lessons on an instrument, actually having live musicians play what you write, conducting, and many other things.

Some of the schools are just crazy expensive, but there are cheaper options. And don't forget about scholarships, I went somewhere that was expensive but very few of the musicians I knew there were paying full tuition (if any of it). If you have some serious talent (and some academic chops don't hurt), the school should want you and be making you an offer.


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## JJP (Aug 2, 2010)

midphase @ Sun Aug 01 said:


> Yes, private instruction doesn't give a participant the whole "college experience", but in today's world it's the only way that makes sense!


At the risk of further derailing Dave's thread, I have to jump in here. I'm a little troubled by the "college is just a glorified trade school" mentality. Berklee is a unique school that often perpetuates this idea.

I work with a variety of composers and other musicians in my work. Even on big-budget Hollywood productions you can usually spot the people who have a good college education in fairly short order. Very often the people who have only studied privately have gaps in their knowledge. One big gap is often lack of an intimate understanding of how a live ensemble works. This is because without college, most of them have never played in an orchestra, big band, wind ensemble, chamber group, etc.

I could go on with various anecdotes, but the bottom line is that there is a difference in the education you get and how you use it down the road. Private lessons are wonderful, but they are by no means the equivalent of a solid, well-rounded musical education from a notable college or university. Not all college music programs are created equal. (Hint: the ones with higher audition standards often offer a better education.)

If you want the best possible education, take private lessons from a good teacher, practice your tail off, and get into the best music school you can. If you want to go one step farther, practice even harder and try to get a scholarship to cover some of the tuition! o/~ 

The degree may not help you pitch for a job, but it will give you tools for doing the job that you may not be able to acquire any other way. There are some jobs I'm doing now that would never have even considered me without a college degree. One involves years of consistent work for a big Hollywood studio, and another is for a #1 primetime TV show with a live ensemble every week. I even once had a major studio VP voice an initial concern about hiring me because my music degree wasn't specifically in composition, and this wasn't even a composing gig in the strict sense! :shock: ...never heard that before or since.

Dave's point about the value of California state schools is also well noted.


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## midphase (Aug 2, 2010)

It seems like a private teacher like Dave might give his students (local ones) opportunities to experience working with a live ensemble. As a matter of fact, many teachers around here (J. Eric Schmidth comes to mind too http://www.jericschmidt.com/) work routinely with real orchestras and will have more real-world knowledge than academics (especially at Berklee) who haven't touched a baton in decades.

My basic point is that in some industries (Legal, Medical, Accounting, Business, etc) a college degree is vital to getting a job. In the composition (especially Film and TV work), a degree plays little to no role in getting work. I'm not arguing against an education, quite the opposite. I maintain that a college education not only has become (in most cases) unreachably expensive, especially for those without wealthy parents, but also lacks the real-world knowledge that is critical in getting a new composer to hit the ground running as quickly as possible.


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## midphase (Aug 2, 2010)

PS.

I think this is further exacerbated by the fact that less and less college graduates (in music) are going on to internships and assistant positions, and rather move straight into the work-market where they literally have to learn as they go along.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 2, 2010)

Berklee was about $3000 a semester when I was there, if I remember right!

I agree with JJP that the "glorified trade school" line isn't quite right, but actually I always described the difference between Berklee and a conservatory in a similar but positive way: it's like a trade school for music.  Its curriculum was aimed directly at what was going on in the music industry - when it existed.

But I've said it again and I'll say it before: I wouldn't trade the education I got there for anything - including the academic classes, which were as serious as in any other college. (Although to be fair I did test out of Freshman English, so maybe my memory is fonder than the reality.)


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## careyford (Aug 2, 2010)

I agree with you Kays. 

In college, I had access to a full orchestra that was good (not studio quality top to bottom but the string section leaders, wind and percussion were outstanding). In addition, I wrote for a world class choir and percussion ensemble, solid wind ensemble, pit orchestras, and some very fine soloists. I played or sung in all of the ensembles (had to take up the oboe to get into the orchestra) which I wouldn't trade for anything. 

Still when I got out of school, I sought out private teachers in New York and later LA. Also invaluable. 

Richard


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## careyford (Aug 2, 2010)

And thanks, Jay!


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## Ashermusic (Aug 2, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> Berklee was about $3000 a semester when I was there, if I remember right!
> But I've said it again and I'll say it before: I wouldn't trade the education I got there for anything



Then why aren't you a btter composer and musician? :twisted:


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## sbkp (Aug 2, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Berklee was about $3000 a semester when I was there, if I remember right!
> ...



Oh, I don't know. I think Nick is pretty bitter...


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## JJP (Aug 2, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> It seems like a private teacher like Dave might give his students (local ones) opportunities to experience working with a live ensemble.



Experience working with a live ensemble is one thing, but actually playing as part of an ensemble brings a whole different level of understanding from the performer's chair. This is why most good music schools require a significant level of proficiency on at least one instrument or voice and participation in various ensembles. Some good composition programs require lessons or classes to develop at least basic skills on one instrument in every family (strings, brass, perc, winds). The same can be said for some good conducting programs.


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## MichaelL (Aug 2, 2010)

JJP @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> midphase @ Mon Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > It seems like a private teacher like Dave might give his students (local ones) opportunities to experience working with a live ensemble.
> ...




JJP, I agree with what you are saying regarding playing in an ensemble and conducting etc. What I have issue with is the underlying assumption that there is no life outside of Hollywood and/or big budget productions. You are very fortunate to do the work that you do. However, you represent a minority of composers. 
For more on that read http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=5790, on "The Myth of the Working Composer." 

To quote Mr. Northam, "the geographical requirements and bounds of the world of score composing have dissolved with the advent of technology and the Internet, and today’s “working composers” are just as likely to find themselves living in Houston as Hollywood." 

Given the likelihood, that most composers will be working with virtual instruments in home studios, spending a lot of money to get live orchestra experience may not be the most cost effective choice. 

However, learning how to compose and orchestrate from a working pro is likely to vastly improve the electronic musician's efficiency and realism. Both of these circumstances will improve that chances of getting work, as well as making it more profitable.


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 2, 2010)

I'd say that if you are trying to do orchestral mockups with samples, it may be even more important to have experience playing an instrument and playing in an orchestra.

Reading what JJP said again, it applies just as much to midi orchestration as it does to working with live players.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 2, 2010)

> Then why aren't you a btter composer and musician?



I am!


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## MichaelL (Aug 2, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> I'd say that if you are trying to do orchestral mockups with samples, it may be even more important to have experience playing an instrument and playing in an orchestra.
> 
> Reading what JJP said again, it applies just as much to midi orchestration as it does to working with live players.




I agree. My mentor, who was brilliant composer and electronic music pioneer, told me that if you want a synthesized trumpet to sound like a real trumpet, you have to "think like a trumpet player." That still applies, no matter how good the samples are. (He btw was using a Moog and an Arp in the dark ages)

There are many ways to acquire knowledge.


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 2, 2010)

Well, I have a comp degree with Berklee and I worked with two composers one of whom dropped out of Juilliard (Henry Mancini) and the other out of high school (Jerry Goldsmith).

I also do online training. So here's some perspective from a different angle.

Spend $200-$300 and take piano lessons! Get yourself through the Pace method through book 4, or grade level 2. At this level you now have what's called Arranger's Chops.

With the rare exception of wind controllers, everything we do is on a keyboard. So get your proficiency up there so you CAN take advantage of a teacher. From this you'll also learn to read music which IS a huge PLUS. 

You DO need to know harmony. A community college course on this can only be a benefit.

Even with only 1 semester of harmony, spending $25 on the Street Smart Guide to the Bach Chorales will only help you. Studying 2-3 chorales a week will expand your tonal palette, bass line writing, and part writing, which is all necessary for orchestral work. 

Playing, or singing, in an ensemble will teach you a lot more about blending (layering!) and "tempo mapping" (by following a live conductor) will teach you more than you can ever read from a book. 

Attending a live symphonic or band concert will teach you wondrous things that you can't get from a CD or MP3. 

RE: Mentoring/Private Lessons.

Both Mancini and Goldsmith studied with the same guys in L.A. But when they studied with them, as composers, they were already schooled in the basics and had plenty of live performance experience. There were no "gaps" in either composer's ability because they studied privately, but bear in mind, they studied with uber effective teachers who had escaped Nazi persecution and were more demanding than most students would "tolerate" today.

Many, in the absence of study scores, kept the "record player" by the piano and wrote down line for line the whole arrangement of a big band piece. Consequently, they developed serious hearing chops which also aided them in recording and mixing.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 2, 2010)

I am enjoying this everyone and getting a steady stream of responses so feel free to post your thoughts. Many valid points here that are actually helpful to me in understanding what people found most valuable in their studies and experiences.


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## JJP (Aug 2, 2010)

MichaelL @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> What I have issue with is the underlying assumption that there is no life outside of Hollywood and/or big budget productions.


I have no idea how you drew that assumption from my post. :? The value of education holds regardless of where you work. However, in this business the simplistic measure of X dollars + Y years of study = Z dollars of return on investment may not work as a computation of value.

I know Mark Northam, and I fully understand his position in that essay.

Just as a final thought, I hope that my postings are not seen as discouraging anyone from studying with a good private teacher. The benefits of private study immeasurable. A good teacher can change your life. My only point is that a few years of private study is not equivalent to a music degree from a fine college, university, or conservatory. I'm sure most good private teachers would agree.


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## careyford (Aug 2, 2010)

Is "btter" short for "better" or "bitter"? LOL


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## John DeBorde (Aug 2, 2010)

yeah, I have to say many of the things that I stumbled into randomly in college have turned out to be enormously beneficial as a professional composer - esp several of the ensembles that I played in in school - usually just because a buddy was doing it or to fill a credit. These included a Latin American Folk ensemble, Javanese Gamelan, singing in the choir and playing in jazz combos - none of which have ever been my primary interest, but I've had several gigs where I was glad that I was able to draw on my experience with these styles. 

I did all of my studies in the UC and Cal State systems too, and had many wonderful teachers...don't think you necessarily need to go the private route, tho I'm sure Berklee is a great school.

you can never know too much!

john


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## Ashermusic (Aug 2, 2010)

careyford @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> Is "btter" short for "better" or "bitter"? LOL



Damn my typing sucks. I can't even properly insult Nick. Better was what I intended as we already know he is bitter


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## MichaelL (Aug 2, 2010)

JJP @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> MichaelL @ Mon Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > What I have issue with is the underlying assumption that there is no life outside of Hollywood and/or big budget productions.
> ...




JJP, didn't mean to offend. I could parse your language to explain how I drew that conclusion, but I could be mistaken. I'm not discounting that value of formal education. I've got a few degrees, including a juris doctor. I think that part of what midphase is getting at is that there are gaps in formal education, as well. And -- that it is possible to succeed (depending upon how you define success) without going that route.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 2, 2010)

Lol Nick and Riff!


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## MichaelL (Aug 3, 2010)

Jay,

Off topic -- since we're already there.

I tried to get your new book at two Barnes and Noble locations. They couldn't find you in their system.

I'll try to order it online.

Michael


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## midphase (Aug 3, 2010)

John DeBorde @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> yeah, I have to say many of the things that I stumbled into randomly in college have turned out to be enormously beneficial as a professional composer - esp several of the ensembles that I played in in school - usually just because a buddy was doing it or to fill a credit. These included a Latin American Folk ensemble, Javanese Gamelan, singing in the choir and playing in jazz combos - none of which have ever been my primary interest, but I've had several gigs where I was glad that I was able to draw on my experience with these styles.



I think a good private teacher will make efforts to open up a student's interests to more than just the traditional compositional methods. (maybe I give way too much credit to private teachers).

I'm trying to think is there were any courses that I took while in Berklee that would have opened me to things I would have not normally gravitated towards and come in handy later in life....hmmmm....nope....can't think of one. I guess either I have a natural curiosity towards any and all types of music, or I'm really lame.

Either way, my main objection to schools like Berklee (I don't know if USC falls into the same price range) is the high cost of tuition, the generalized curriculum, and the lack of real-world advice and instruction which creates a lot of clueless, and yet competing for the same gigs are pros, new composers each semester (USC is less guilty of this since a great deal of their Film Scoring faculty is made up of working composers).


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 3, 2010)

As this thread goes on I have to wonder if the objection is to college or just Berklee?


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## JJP (Aug 3, 2010)

MichaelL @ Mon Aug 02 said:


> JJP, didn't mean to offend.



No offense taken whatsoever! o-[][]-o


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## John DeBorde (Aug 3, 2010)

midphase @ Tue Aug 03 said:


> Either way, my main objection to schools like Berklee (I don't know if USC falls into the same price range) is the high cost of tuition, the generalized curriculum, and the lack of real-world advice and instruction which creates a lot of clueless, and yet competing for the same gigs are pros, new composers each semester (USC is less guilty of this since a great deal of their Film Scoring faculty is made up of working composers).



I definitely have to concur that it seems there are plenty of schools pumping out composers for whom the paucity of work is not made entirely clear in the school's marketing materials. Like anything tho, presumably the capable and resourceful will survive, and the rest will have to find something else to do.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 3, 2010)

midphase @ Tue Aug 03 said:


> John DeBorde @ Mon Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > yeah, I have to say many of the things that I stumbled into randomly in college have turned out to be enormously beneficial as a professional composer - esp several of the ensembles that I played in in school - usually just because a buddy was doing it or to fill a credit. These included a Latin American Folk ensemble, Javanese Gamelan, singing in the choir and playing in jazz combos - none of which have ever been my primary interest, but I've had several gigs where I was glad that I was able to draw on my experience with these styles.
> ...



Speaking for myself Kays, if it had not been for Avram David at Boston Conservatory, I doubt I would have ever listened to Stockhausen, Berio, Boulez, etc. with an open mind and tried to compose in that style, which made me a better composer overall.

But studying later with Al Harris certainly taught me real world things I did not learn at the conservatory.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 3, 2010)

I think it's great to go go college no matter where it is or whether you use what you learn directly. How many people just get general liberal arts degrees and end up working in totally unrelated fields? Or study law and go into business, or study acting and become executives? And so on.

College is great. Private college is ridiculously expensive. College is not for everybody, but it's for most people.

Studying privately is also very important.


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## careyford (Aug 3, 2010)

Kays -- a lot of what was most useful for me musically came out of other disciplines, especially art, English, and theatre. My degree was a Bachelor of Music in Composition and it required a lot of non-music courses. 

Richard


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## ozmorphasis (Aug 3, 2010)

midphase @ Tue Aug 03 said:


> Ok...how about this. College in Music (not Film Scoring, not Mixing...just music like the Boston Conservatory) is good.
> 
> College in a career that requires a degree (like Law, or Accounting) with a minor in Music (to be followed by private instruction afterwards) is good.
> 
> College for Film Scoring, Mixing, Sound Design, and anything else that might be considered a specialized and technical field = useless (IMHO of course).




Kays, you have made many valid points when discussing some specifics, but it's when you make these sweeping generalizations that you lose me. I could say the same about anyone making a sweeping claim (I believe there was one earlier in this thread) about the absolute need for a college education.

College is not just an education, it is a place of work, a subculture, an entire world for a few years, etc. All of this makes it have an impact on your life that is not really one-for-one comparable to private lessons. 

This impact can have both positives:
1. Great contacts
2. private instruction with real working professionals (That's what I had)
3. A place to try ideas
4. yadayad, the list goes on forever.

...and possibly some negatives:
1. A lack of professors with real world experience (do your research first before applying)
2. Can make some personality types complacent about career choices since it is a bit of a safety net.
3. yadayad, again the list goes on.

Now, with private lessons alone: Way too many variables to even begin to discuss! See, the point is that when you take private lessons, there is the question of what you are doing with the rest of your time and attention. Perhaps some amazing things that totally supplant all of the positives AND negatives in the college experience. Perhaps not. There is very little inherent in private lessons to even begin to address some of those aspects. That's why I think it's not really worth comparing.

Lastly, I have never spent any time in a music program without there being a significant amount of private instruction from working pros. Again, do your research before you commit. 

O


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 3, 2010)

If you're going to make the argument that college is "useless" and private lessons can accomplish the same thing, couldn't the same argument be made that private lessons aren't necessary since you could just get some orchestration/arranging books and a stack of recordings and scores and teach yourself? Just for argument's sake.


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## MichaelL (Aug 3, 2010)

There are so many intangibles, like the talent an individual is born with, and the opportunities that come from circumstance. 

Jay mentioned, perhaps in another thread, something along the lines that "working composers" only know how music works with film from years of working in Hollywood. That's a generalization that doesn't apply to everyone. 

I learned how music works with film because my father was a film-maker. I grew up sitting on his lap while he was editing. I used to play on the soundstage at his studio. I was a music and sound editor, while still in my teens. 

We all come at this from a different place. Where you study and with whom you study is only part of the equation. 

I don't live and work in Hollywood, but could find lessons from someone like Dave to be beneficial for the work that I do. 

Cheers,

Michael


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## linzjones (Aug 3, 2010)

Hi, I see that this discussion has kinda wandered away from the original post a little bit, but I just wanted to say that I recently had my first lesson with Dave, and it was incredibly helpful and insightful. I highly recommend him!


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## mverta (Aug 4, 2010)

I'm a huge advocate of 1-on-1 training.

I began self-teaching my composition and orchestration chops when I was very young, so when I headed out to Los Angeles at 18 to study at USC, I was academically ahead of the curve. That said, I actually failed my freshman theory class; I never went because the professor was a total douchebag, and I much preferred staying up late banging sorority chicks to getting up at 8 and deconstructing Bach chorales. Further, the head of the department - after hearing I wanted to make a living as a composer in the vein of my idols Williams and Goldsmith - told me, verbatim, that the idea of "using music as a form of self-advancement," "made him sick." I mentally checked-out at that point, retook the first class with an A+ just as an F-you, and bailed...

...but not before I was to meet the man who was to become my 1-on-1 teacher, my conductor, and the best man at my wedding. So it's all good. But I'd just as soon have skipped the college thing. So far, it's never come up.


_Mike


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## Ashermusic (Aug 4, 2010)

MichaelL @ Tue Aug 03 said:


> There are so many intangibles, like the talent an individual is born with, and the opportunities that come from circumstance.
> 
> Jay mentioned, perhaps in another thread, something along the lines that "working composers" only know how music works with film from years of working in Hollywood. That's a generalization that doesn't apply to everyone.
> 
> ...



Very valid point Michael but I think you will grant that most potential film composers do not grow up with filmmaker fathers so it is certainly an atypical example.


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## Narval (Aug 4, 2010)

Anyone mentioned Oscar yet? 

"Education is an admirable thing, but it is worth noting that there is nothing worth knowing that can be taught" - Oscar Wilde


o/~


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## MichaelL (Aug 4, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Wed Aug 04 said:


> MichaelL @ Tue Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> > There are so many intangibles, like the talent an individual is born with, and the opportunities that come from circumstance.
> ...



Absolutely. I was very fortunate. 

I think the unfortunate circumstance right now is that music schools are setting "film composer" as the "default" option for how to make a living writing music. 

Your point and my point -- there's a lot more to it than that.

Cheers,

Michael


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## midphase (Aug 4, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Aug 03 said:


> I'm a huge advocate of 1-on-1 training.
> 
> I began self-teaching my composition and orchestration chops when I was very young, so when I headed out to Los Angeles at 18 to study at USC, I was academically ahead of the curve. That said, I actually failed my freshman theory class; I never went because the professor was a total douchebag, and I much preferred staying up late banging sorority chicks to getting up at 8 and deconstructing Bach chorales. Further, the head of the department - after hearing I wanted to make a living as a composer in the vein of my idols Williams and Goldsmith - told me, verbatim, that the idea of "using music as a form of self-advancement," "made him sick." I mentally checked-out at that point, retook the first class with an A+ just as an F-you, and bailed...
> 
> ...




Thank you for sharing Mike. I guess the truth is that if someone had a positive college experience then they're likely to feel that college is indispensable, while someone who had a negative experience will feel that college can be bypassed without negative consequences.

My college experience was neither good nor bad, it just was...so although I should be fairly neutral about the subject, I still side with the idea that in certain fields college is absolutely an unnecessary financial burden with no other benefits to one's future career other than appeasing parents with a useless piece of paper mounted on a nice frame.

The other issue that I have is that certain individuals seem to think that college is the only way to be exposed to a variety of musical styles, gaining exposure to other non-musical studies, networking with other musicians and artists, be exposed to working with ensembles and on and on....and quite honestly I find this to be complete and utter nonsense (to use a "nice" word).


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## midphase (Aug 4, 2010)

P.S.

I get the feeling that the invitation to give a lecture at Berklee isn't coming any time soon.


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## midphase (Aug 4, 2010)

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/07/ ... nvestment/


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## Ashermusic (Aug 4, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Aug 04 said:


> mverta @ Tue Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm a huge advocate of 1-on-1 training.
> ...



I am guessing that I am one of those "certain individuals."

The fact of the matter is that for most young musicians who maybe will someday aspire to be film composers they will never turn on a radio station and hear Varese or Boulez; they will never wander through the bookshelves of their local public library and see a copy of Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain" and say, "gee that looks interesting; they will rarely bump into a group of people with similar goals and stay up all night talking g about their dreams and the best way to realize it; they will not have access to a steady series of free or cheap concerts with all kinds of music performed at a relatively high level; etc.

We are not talking about whether college is the only way to get a career and make money, we are talking about the best way to develop and grow as artists with the _potential_ to have a career and make money.

For most, not all, college is a great first step.


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## midphase (Aug 4, 2010)

Jay, I think we'll have to simply disagree on this one. Further, I will say that those who have no self-motivation to explore music and need a college course to "force" them into doing it...probably have no business being a composer in the first place!


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## Ashermusic (Aug 4, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Aug 04 said:


> Jay, I think we'll have to simply disagree on this one. Further, I will say that those who have no self-motivation to explore music and need a college course to "force" them into doing it...probably have no business being a composer in the first place!



Kays, you don't understand, it wasn't that I wasn't motivated, I simply didn't know that stuff existed!

Maybe you grew up in a more cosmopolitan area and a musically educated background but I grew up in a small working class town north of Boston where the primary use of music was for a marching band for football games and my parents taste ran only the gamut from musical theater to Mario Lanza to Sarah Vaughn. 

For me, going to Boston Conservatory was a window to a world I simply never knew existed. And in those days Berklee was right next door and I was exposed to Coltrane, Coleman, etc., once again, stuff I did not know existed.

I am not saying it is the "right" way or the only way, but for most, it is still the most viable.


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## mverta (Aug 4, 2010)

Without damning college completely, I still feel it's best to have academia help one organize one's experiences, versus being burdened with providing them. If you have desire to be a composer, start composing, all the time, incessantly. Have initial failures and successes on your own; learn to find patterns in music and harmony on your own first. That way, when you get to college and you're presented with all those bullshit, useless "rules" of tonal harmony, you'll at least have a context within which to place them. They actually can help you organize some thoughts, even generate some "aha, so THAT'S why that works" moments, without having to slavishly adhere to the rules and write the same uninspired, academically sterile crap most of the teachers do. Best of both worlds.


_Mike


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## Narval (Aug 4, 2010)

I'd put it this way: most people, when they see the sea, they see: tons of water, waves. If you have a special interest for the sea, you can start and google for info. You can even submerge a couple of meters under the sea and get your skin wet. For some, that is not enough. So they go to academic institutes that study the oceans in some more depth. Then, when they look at the sea, they have a different view of it than the average shallow-waters swimmers.

When I listen to La mer, I know why certain things are there in those specific ways, and what makes them work. Same about Verklärte Nacht. And Turangalîla. And pretty much everything else. Unless you are a genius, you can't figure all those things out alone. Or, maybe you can, but it will take like forever. That's where principled based guidance comes handy - and that's basically what academia offers. That is, besides the horizons-expanding environment, outside the financial and time pressures of the money making world.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 4, 2010)

mverta @ Wed Aug 04 said:


> Without damning college completely, I still feel it's best to have academia help one organize one's experiences, versus being burdened with providing them. If you have desire to be a composer, start composing, all the time, incessantly. Have initial failures and successes on your own; learn to find patterns in music and harmony on your own first. That way, when you get to college and you're presented with all those [email protected]#t, useless "rules" of tonal harmony, you'll at least have a context within which to place them. They actually can help you organize some thoughts, even generate some "aha, so THAT'S why that works" moments, without having to slavishly adhere to the rules and write the same uninspired, academically sterile crap most of the teachers do. Best of both worlds.
> 
> 
> _Mike



While I agree with composing early, composing often, I think one makes better decisions about breaking rules when they have mastered the rules first.

I never write in strict 5th species counterpoint but when I (co) scored my first TV series, while I was conducting some of my cues, the contractor remarked to my co-composer, "For an experienced composer, his inner line writing is very good."

I think the fact that I "slavishly" learned those rules while not having to adhere to them any longer led to that comment.


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## mverta (Aug 4, 2010)

My point is more that in trying to figure things out on your own, first, you often attain a more comprehensive understanding of the discipline, because you have so much field experience in trial and error, and you're already thinking "outside the box," because there is no box. 

Certainly, I felt immeasurable benefit from writing pieces of all types, for tons of configurations, and just putting them on stands day after day in high school. I had learned orchestrational principles simply by doing, and already had a number of tricks under my belt. By the time I heard about the "rules," I already knew which to ignore, and the deeper understanding I gained, academically, about WHY things I already knew worked, worked, allowed me to grow quickly in confidence using those tools.

So again, it's not that traditional academia has nothing to offer, it's just that I think the world it presents is an extremely limited one, not an expansive one, in terms of what really matters. I know no shortage of academically flawless composers and orchestrators, whose works are neither inspiring nor enjoyable. Yet they understand the material with profound academic depth.


A encyclopedic knowledge, academically, of sex, will not in any way make you a good lover. You gotta get in there, make your mistakes, have some successes and THEN compare notes with your older brother.

_Mike


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## MichaelL (Aug 4, 2010)

I never write in strict 5th species counterpoint but when I (co) scored my first TV series, while I was conducting some of my cues, the contractor remarked to my co-composer, "For an experienced composer, his inner line writing is very good."


Uh oh Jay, you just opened the door to another diversion from the thread. Isn't 5th species counterpoint likely to be lost on today's audience? 

Michael


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## Ashermusic (Aug 4, 2010)

mverta @ Wed Aug 04 said:


> I know no shortage of academically flawless composers and orchestrators, whose works are neither inspiring nor enjoyable. Yet they understand the material with profound academic depth.
> 
> 
> _Mike



I know no shortage of creative yet academically flawed composers and orchestrators, whose works are neither inspiring nor enjoyable because they break rules without a clear understanding. Which is why the level of craft, as Dave rightly pointed out, has been diminished.

Almost all of the film composers we all profess to admire are academically trained. I submit to you it is not a coincidence.

Of course, Mike, you are free to disagree and I very much respect your opinion.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 4, 2010)

MichaelL @ Wed Aug 04 said:


> Uh oh Jay, you just opened the door to another diversion from the thread. Isn't 5th species counterpoint likely to be lost on today's audience?
> 
> Michael



Of course, the audience does not nor does it need to understand the details of our craft, but as craftsmen, we must. They may not know they are listening to contrapuntal writing but they will sense the movement and excitement it can bring.


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## mverta (Aug 4, 2010)

I've said several times now that I don't dismiss academia; it's the order of operations I disagree with. I have a complete knowledge, academically, of what I do when I write, but if I'd relied upon that knowledge to write, I wouldn't write what I write. We learn by doing. You can't beat experience. So I'm just saying dig in, actually do it, and then let the teachers organize your knowledge. 

My bias, of course, is because that's how I learned. But I also realized that the majority of stuff I was being presented with, academically, didn't actually GIVE me much; it organized it. I realized if I'd been dependent upon it to know what was possible, what to do, I'd have been lost. I consider it a dodged bullet. 

We can at least all agree that mastery of craft is essential. I just think you get it mostly in the field, not in some classroom. But that's just me agreeing with the age-old adage, isn't it? Those who can, do, those who can't...


_Mike


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## Ashermusic (Aug 4, 2010)

mverta @ Wed Aug 04 said:


> Ah.
> 
> Well, were these more than exceptions to the legions of examples which prove the adage, I would surely have to agree with you.
> 
> ...



Sure, but there are as many bad composers who did not 
go the university route as did, don't you think?

You betcha, mastery of craft is the name of the game. And BTW, I think you are an accomplished guy, so clearly what you did worked for you.


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## JohnG (Aug 4, 2010)

I think studying poetry and literature in college contributed more to my film composing than studying music.

Also, experiencing disappointment, love, taking care of someone -- all that.


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## MichaelL (Aug 4, 2010)

JohnG @ Wed Aug 04 said:


> I think studying poetry and literature in college contributed more to my film composing than studying music.
> 
> Also, experiencing disappointment, love, taking care of someone -- all that.




And those things obviously contributed a lot. Really nice work.


Regards,

Michael


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## Narval (Aug 4, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Aug 04 said:


> But nowadays the sky's the limit. Just a couple of clicks on YouTube will expose anyone to all sorts of experimental music. Hell...iTunes and Amazon will make suggestions for you. The idea that one needs college to help him expand his mind in today's ultra connected and informed times seems like a very anachronistic way of looking at things.


Expanding one's horizons doesn't mean access to more information. It's more of an inward process. Quantity means nothing when you can't tell quality from junk. Besides, too much information is confusing. You first need to build a principle-based value system. Even before that, you need to learn how to think correctly and how to evaluate objectively. Academia teaches that. It also teaches you how to look at the nature of things without being distracted by meaningless details. And that's just the beginning. Academia is in fact a sort of a kindergarten. You can make it alright even without it. But academia helps building something well-structured inside, something that you can't get from elsewhere.

Letting Amazon and iTunes to make suggestions for you?? You're joking, right?


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## Narval (Aug 5, 2010)

It's like learning to draw. You first learn to draw straight lines; you practice that. Then you learn to draw curved lines; you practice that too. Then you combine them so that they look like something that makes sense. Like in kindergarten. Or in Karate Kid. Right, sensei Connor? :D


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## Dave Connor (Aug 5, 2010)

Sorry I haven't had time to comment here but I have been thoroughly enjoying this thread and not because it's keeping it going but because musical education is a very important subject. 

I will say that it is a combination of my education and real-world experience that makes me viable in the professional film world. So you really need both. You may get your entire education from professional experience but I don't know if you're going to come up with the goods of a Goldsmith or Williams (with detailed writing that obeys the laws of traditional composition.) You may do something great on your own but certain textures and sounds will probably elude you.

Right Narval ; )


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## Dave Connor (Aug 16, 2010)

I thought I would let everyone here know how things are going. I've had a very good response and now have a number of new students both online and at my home. So I am very grateful to Frederick and all my supportive friends here a v.i. for taking such an interest in my undertaking with particular thanks to Nick Batzdorf and Craig Sharmat for being so helpful. 

I have actually had to create some of my own learning materials (and will continue) which I think are excellent tools for anyone hoping to expand their horizons in compositional technique. The lessons are tailored to be highly useful in real world application. So if you are feeling at all stuck or would like a greater insight in how to achieve the sounds you are attracted to and even create your own unique sound this may be for you.

I mention this because I only have about 10-15 slots left for students and am going to advertise much wider very soon so I imagine things will fill up rather quickly. The best most energetic people have contacted me from v.i. so it would be great to get more people of that quality on board. Shoot me an email even if you just want to inquire further.

Thanks! (and Cheers to v.i. control!)

Dave

[email protected]


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