# Need to make a 5.1 Mix out of Stereo for Cinema-What to do?



## Markus Kohlprath (Sep 13, 2015)

Hi Folks,
I had an unexpected demand for creating a score for a documentary that will run at some local cinemas in bavaria (WW2 70th Anniversary). It´s the first time ever I even think about surround.
So I kind of enter unknown territory.
In my hometown there is no studio that has a surround setup and engineers that know something about it and there is no time any more to travel far away. So I have to make the best I can in the moment.
So far I created and mixed the cues in stereo as I´m used to. I got two additional speakers (unfortunately not alike my own) for the surrounds left and right from another studio. The mid is left to voices anyway (Have an Auratone which I use for mono check).
This is just to check it out. I know I can´t get a decent mix out of this.
So my my first question: Is there any chance to split up the stereo signal and pan across to the surround channels? Or do I have to route every stem separately?
If I just route the stereo into a surround group and print that to a surround audio track I get strong stereo signals in the front left and right and less of the same signal in the rear channels.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Sep 13, 2015)

Depending on how much you want to use the surrounds, you could just use them for reverbs on the score.


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## Anders Wall (Sep 13, 2015)

If you want to go down the surround-lane you have to have some sort of decent listening environment.
Could you mix in a cinema during off times? Ie early in the morning?

To go from stereo to surround there's some (expensive) plugins that you might want to check out.
You could read more about it here.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug07/articles/upmixingplugins.htm
It's called upmixing and personally it's a no-no, but you can get good results with plugins like these.
You mix your tracks in stereo and let the plugin do it's "magic".

Best of luck!

/Anders


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## Mishabou (Sep 13, 2015)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Hi Folks,
> I had an unexpected demand for creating a score for a documentary that will run at some local cinemas in bavaria (WW2 70th Anniversary). It´s the first time ever I even think about surround.
> So I kind of enter unknown territory.
> In my hometown there is no studio that has a surround setup and engineers that know something about it and there is no time any more to travel far away. So I have to make the best I can in the moment.
> ...



Unlike mixing for broadcast where precise guidelines in term of loudness, peak or any other measurements are given, in Cinema you achieve the above by calibrating your listening environment so that it resembles the environment of a theater.

Ideally you should mix the 5.1 version from your original session or, if you're stuck, you can always upmix your stereo mix, there are many plug-ins on the market that can do this. Personally, i'm never fond of this method.

I mix all my projects in 5.1 that includes a stereo foldown via buses. Depending on delivery requirements, i can print all my surround and stereo stems in one pass.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Sep 13, 2015)

WallofSound said:


> If you want to go down the surround-lane you have to have some sort of decent listening environment.
> Could you mix in a cinema during off times? Ie early in the morning?


Thanks for the suggestions and infos.
Yes we will have the possibility to go to the cinema before and certainly will do that. But of course I have to prepare it as good as I can. Can´t start mixing there 
If I did understand right most of you do not prefer to use dedicated plug ins. So it´s really about preparing and routing the stems properly. And it might be wise to think of that from the beginning of the project, which I didn´t do. Great idea to print surround and stereo in one path. 
Gerhard: You mean using the reverbs and delays in the surrounds exclusively?


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## Markus Kohlprath (Sep 13, 2015)

Does anybody have already experience with the Nugen Audio HALO Upmix? This might be affordable compared to other ones.


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## AR (Sep 13, 2015)

Hi there! From 2.0 to 5.1 is really hard (if not impossible). The other way round is really easy. Of course you can create artificial surroundings with a reverb like from Acon. And you can create a Sub channel at one or two certain hitpoints. Plus with a surround plugin by Waves you can make a Center channel but in the end it all doesn't cut it. Surround is all about dynamics. Having more headroom for your orchestra, having a wider spectrum, getting you into the action, putting you inside an orchestra hall instead as just sitting in front of an hifi.
BUT: some scores doesn't require that much surrounds especially when you have just dialog after dialog.


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## dimtsak (Sep 14, 2015)

The Nugen plugin you mention i see there is a 15 days full feature demo.
Why not try it?


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## Rctec (Sep 14, 2015)

If you take this project and your music seriously, you'll find a way to get it into the hands of a good, 5.1 recording engineer and start your mixes from scratch. It's amazing how, with a bit of communication and stubbornness, a bit more time can be found to make things better. 
But, as it says on the box: don't try this at home. You need a properly calibrated environment. The surround part isn't so bad - depending on the music. You don't want anything distracting to end up in the surround speakers, so just slapping a load of reverb into the rear is not ideal if it catches transients and percussion - which will make everything sound out of time.
The bigger problem is how to manage a sub properly. We never put anything pitched into the sub, just low hits. The crossover will play havoc with a bassline.
For me, the bottom line is always - yes, of course we can do it the crappy way, but this is your work and - as I've learned the hard way - its there forever, which might be a bit or a lot embarrassment to you in the future...
So sometimes it's important to go to your producers and beg for more time, admit that you should have thought about it at the start of the project, but insist on doing it right. If the music is important to the film, how can they not agree to make it better. What's the problem? Time? Money? 
At the end of the day all this rushing usually means that the one guy on minimum wage who's job it is to get the prints done doesn't go into overtime...
Which gets me back to the beginning: find a studio, find an engineer, get in your car, take the train...whatever it takes. Or, just leave it in stereo. Stanley Kubrick did just fine with mono....

-Hz-


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## Markus Kohlprath (Sep 14, 2015)

Rctec said:


> Which gets me back to the beginning: find a studio, find an engineer, get in your car, take the train...whatever it takes. Or, just leave it in stereo. Stanley Kubrick did just fine with mono....
> 
> -Hz-



Hans, you answered exactly all of my concerns. Thank you so much for this. Since the music is a bit in the direction of Morricone, Nino Rota which might not need a big surround mix maybe it's the best to leave it in stereo, although I have no problem to travel around the world to get the best results. I thought it has to be mixed somehow in surround if it runs in the cinema.
This project really turns out to be a big chain of surprises cumulating in your great post. 
The 30min I should score in three weeks turned out to be 55min, they changed the film until a few days ago, it mainly consists of interviews of old german people experiencing the last days of war and imprisonment afterwards in east germany and poland. Some of those really brought tears to my eyes. So the responsibility to make it as good as possible is not so much my embarrassment (although I hope it will not be to big) but to support the emotional impact of these stories as much as possible despite a sometimes very mediocre picture quality.
Again thank you so much
Markus


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## AR (Sep 14, 2015)

Rctec said:


> If you take this project and your music seriously, you'll find a way to get it into the hands of a good, 5.1 recording engineer and start your mixes from scratch. It's amazing how, with a bit of communication and stubbornness, a bit more time can be found to make things better.
> But, as it says on the box: don't try this at home. You need a properly calibrated environment. The surround part isn't so bad - depending on the music. You don't want anything distracting to end up in the surround speakers, so just slapping a load of reverb into the rear is not ideal if it catches transients and percussion - which will make everything sound out of time.
> The bigger problem is how to manage a sub properly. We never put anything pitched into the sub, just low hits. The crossover will play havoc with a bassline.
> For me, the bottom line is always - yes, of course we can do it the crappy way, but this is your work and - as I've learned the hard way - its there forever, which might be a bit or a lot embarrassment to you in the future...
> ...



+1 on what he says. Re-mixing is better than pseudo


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