# Quick copyright question



## JimDiGritz (Dec 16, 2022)

I think I know the answer to this but just wanted to confirm.

I bought a pdf score from a publishing company, and have a pdf which is watermarked with my name etc.

As an exercise I have been copying this score into Musescore to a) learn Musescore, and b) have an interactive score to better analyse the piece with.

*I presume that I can NOT share this Musescore score with anyone (eg upload it to the Musescore cloud) since it's a 1:1 copy from the copyrighted pdf.*


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## Daniel S. (Dec 16, 2022)

Correct!


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## Wensleydale (Dec 16, 2022)

Daniel S. said:


> Correct!


That’s on the assumption that the music itself is subject to copyright, presumably? What if I produced and sold a new edition of Mozart, and someone copied the music from my edition into a notation app?


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## Daryl (Dec 16, 2022)

What is new about your edition?


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## d.healey (Dec 16, 2022)

Wensleydale said:


> What if I produced and sold a new edition of Mozart, and someone copied the music from my edition into a notation app?


Your edition would have its own copyright. If it was identical to the original then anyone could make a copy from it and no one would know


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 16, 2022)

Daryl said:


> What is new about your edition?


Absolutely nothing, except it's in an interactive Musescore format so I can play it and solo any instrument or section.

Plus, despite paying for the score - the engraving is pretty poor and is just a 'scan' of the original. It's a legit score of Michael Kamen's Band of Brothers Suite from www.jwpepper.com


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 16, 2022)

Wensleydale said:


> That’s on the assumption that the music itself is subject to copyright, presumably? What if I produced and sold a new edition of Mozart, and someone copied the music from my edition into a notation app?


It is and I don't want to ethically or legally break copyright law - I was really just double checking I hadn't missed something obvious!


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 16, 2022)

If nothing else copying 147 bars of 18 staffs was useful to push my ability to read notation, understand articulation marks (I had to look up a few!) and get to know Musescore.

I won't copying entire scores again in a hurry, but I can see myself copying in sections (where they are not available on Musescore or as xml) to help with score study.


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## Daryl (Dec 17, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Absolutely nothing, except it's in an interactive Musescore format so I can play it and solo any instrument or section.
> 
> Plus, despite paying for the score - the engraving is pretty poor and is just a 'scan' of the original. It's a legit score of Michael Kamen's Band of Brothers Suite from www.jwpepper.com


So the music is in copyright, so it's not yours to "sell".

However, if it was by Mozart, and you had copied it from an 18th century print, then you could do what you liked, because the music isn't in copyright, and you are creating a new copyright with your typesetting.

However, if you copied it from an Urtext edition, for example, you would have to be careful that you didn't use anything that the editor had added. There is a fine line, but it's not worth the risk. I've heard of cases where an edition owner has tried to go after someone for using their "corrected notes". As if correcting wrong notes in a score is creating a new copyright.


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## Daryl (Dec 17, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> If nothing else copying 147 bars of 18 staffs was useful to push my ability to read notation, understand articulation marks (I had to look up a few!) and get to know Musescore.
> 
> I won't copying entire scores again in a hurry, but I can see myself copying in sections (where they are not available on Musescore or as xml) to help with score study.


It's a very useful exercise, when learning a new notation program, to copy an existing score. The last thing you want to do is try t be creative, and then lose your flow, because you have to keep looking things up.


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 17, 2022)

Thanks for all the input, I appreciate there are grey areas and fine lines here. 

I'm also a little hazy on how much of a score I can share (let's say on here to ask a question about voice leading). If I upload a whole page as a jpg of a copyrighted score that feels a little grey..


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## Daryl (Dec 17, 2022)

Another useful thing to do is to re-orchestrate existing orchestral scores for a smaller orchestra. That way you really get to know what each instrument does, and the have to find a creative way round it. Sure, if you're only using samples, it doesn't matter that much, but if you get the chance to score for a small orchestra, these little "nuggets" can make a the difference.


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## Daryl (Dec 17, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Thanks for all the input, I appreciate there are grey areas and fine lines here.
> 
> I'm also a little hazy on how much of a score I can share (let's say on here to ask a question about voice leading). If I upload a whole page as a jpg of a copyrighted score that feels a little grey..


It all depends on the purpose. This is also a very complicated question, because it covers "fair use", but in multiple territories. Uploading little snips should be OK, and come under "education", but more than that can lead you into trouble.


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## benwiggy (Dec 19, 2022)

Daryl said:


> As if correcting wrong notes in a score is creating a new copyright.


It takes skill and experience to identify a note as incorrect (rather than 'unusual, but intended'), and suggest an alternative note: the latter of which is demonstrably a creative act.

It would indeed be for a court to decide whether the corrections were or were not 'obvious' in their solution, and significant (or otherwise) in number to represent a unique, creative work.


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## Daryl (Dec 19, 2022)

benwiggy said:


> It takes skill and experience to identify a note as incorrect (rather than 'unusual, but intended'), and suggest an alternative note: the latter of which is demonstrably a creative act.
> 
> It would indeed be for a court to decide whether the corrections were or were not 'obvious' in their solution, and significant (or otherwise) in number to represent a unique, creative work.


Really? You think that correcting wrong notes in Verdi operas, for example, should create new copyright? Sorry, I just see that as an abuse of copyright.


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## benwiggy (Dec 19, 2022)

You may suggest that any reasonably competent musician would come to the same conclusions; but the plaintiff presumably argues that this is not the case. Do you know how the case ended?

Some corrections may well be trivial and obvious, but others may not. Editing music is a job of work, and it's entirely fair that it should enjoy some copyright protection.


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## Daryl (Dec 19, 2022)

I disagree. Correcting notes does not create a new piece of music. It is not an arrangement.


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## Wensleydale (Dec 19, 2022)

An article about this: http://www.rbs2.com/cmusic2.pdf

Speaking as a lawyer, though not a copyright lawyer, I would be surprised if there were no possible circumstances in which corrections, however extensive, could ever attract copyright protection.


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## benwiggy (Dec 19, 2022)

That's very interesting - though while it argues that spelling errors and the like are not worthy of copyright, it does say that "editorial changes in music may be more significant than editorial changes in text."
It also talks about correcting errors from previous editions, rather than errors in the original source material.
I agree that the extent of the corrections required, and the creativity of the suggested alternative, will obviously affect the degree of originality and thus potential for copyright.

Different jurisdictions treat things differently, of course: I'm surprised that your article asserts that reconstruction of a missing part is not copyrightable in the US. UK cases, like Sawkins vs Hyperion Records, have usually sided with the editor.


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## cet34f (Dec 19, 2022)

Every country has different laws, but in the spirit of the Berne Convention, if you don't have permission from the music copyright holder, you can't upload his score, regardless of whether the publisher has published a version or not. If you have permission from the copyright holder, yes, you can upload his score.

If the copyright holder does not have the right to give you permission, for example, if he has an exclusive agreement with the publisher, that is a different matter. If you upload the publisher's version directly to the web, that's a different matter.


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