# Convolution Reverbs; All about the IR's



## gsilbers (Apr 16, 2010)

im contemplating getting altiverb but some posts suggest that what matters is the IR. 
is altiverb much better than waves IR and space designer just because it has better IRs? 
can i get a commercially available IR and the sound would be as good as altiverb?


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## midphase (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm actually very interested in this as I am in the same exact position. I've been happy with Space Designer, but Altiverb keeps popping up in discussions and I feel like I'm missing out.

I know that some have said that a good convolution reverb should not color the IR's in any way, but I do find myself wondering if this is 100% correct or not.

I don't exactly have $500 burning a hole in my pocket, so if there is no real logical reason to switch from Logic's Space Designer to Altiverb I'd like to know so that I can re-route that money elsewhere where it would make a bigger sonic difference.

I guess what I'm hoping for is that someone who has used several convolution reverbs chimes in with reason why they think Altiverb ultimately ended up being better...or not.


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## Christian Marcussen (Apr 16, 2010)

Hi. 

I'll try answer from a slightly different perspective. What is great about AV is the sheer amount of IR's. Each IR sounds extremely different, so it offers you a myriad number of ways to mix and match, and get as close to the sound you are after as possible. 

Qualitywise I'm sure you can find just as good, or betters IR's. I seem to recall someone mentioning that AVs recording equipment is a little underwhelming, compared to other IR libraries (but this is hear-say - someone who knows what they are talking about might want to chime in). But even with really well recorded IR's you could still end up not getting the sound you are after. 

So to re-cap... I find that my sections need a combination of different reverbs and settings to sound as I want them to (or close) - and for that the number of verbs AV offers is a real help. 

If I were to do things over I would seriously consider going the Vienna Suite route since I hear good things about the quality of the programming as well as IR's.


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 17, 2010)

I think Altiverb has great IRs of real spaces. Lately I've been kind of disappointed honestly with a lot of them because still need EQ tweaks - its rare to find one that doesn't drastically alter the entire Q of your mix. 

Lately on the convolution side of things I've been using Waves IR-1 with Todd AO (with EQ tweaks to eliminate mud) and like the final wash to be true stereo Bricasti M7 (Boston or Amsterdam Hall) which is what I started using and liking in Wizoo W2 before I was no longer able to use it when switching to intel Mac. The Bricasti M7 True stereo IR is really superb for orchestral. I honestly wish that Bricasti Designs would license a software algo of their famous M7 hardware - perhaps to Waves or UA. Between that and the Lexicon PCM Native Bundle along with 2cAudio Aether 1.5 and Waves IR-1, you're set imo.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Apr 17, 2010)

I used to use Altiverb a lot before - in fact all the time.

But recently I have moved to Vienna Convolution Reverb (not MIR) - it sounds much better to me and needs much less eq etc.

I have just purchased Aether. I am not sure how to use it effectively - I will have to work hard to create different instances for the orchestra.


How are you using Aether Frederick ? 


Thanks.


Tanuj.

PS: I would get the Vienna Suite - you get a lot more for the money - plus the Reverb plug in is amazing!


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## Dietz (Apr 17, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Sat Apr 17 said:


> I think Altiverb has great IRs of real spaces. Lately I've been kind of disappointed honestly with a lot of them because still need EQ tweaks [...]


Without taking the thread off-topic too much, I would like to know if you (or anybody here) really thinks that there is the "secret, hidden set of tools" somewhere on earth that magically _always_ is right out of the box ... 8-)

I mean - everybody on these pages would be horrified by the idea of using the same four-note melody over and over again in all of his/her compositions, so why should the same approach work during mixdown (... which is much like "conducting" on a different level)?

Presets are starting points at best, and yes, I created one or two of them during the last few years  ... EQ tweaking isn't something dirty. EQing (or any kind of signal processing) is as necessary as salt, water and heat for cooking: It has to be used with caution, but according to taste. Some prefer their food raw, of course.



Frederick Russ @ Sat Apr 17 said:


> [...] its rare to find one that doesn't drastically alter the entire Q of your mix. [...]



Now - that's the same thing that would happen when you take your live ensemble from one room to the other, wouldn't it? 

Kind regards,


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## EnTaroAdun (Apr 17, 2010)

To answer the question:
*Yes, it's all about the IRs!*
(Some convoverbs might have nicer features than others though.)

But then I'm not sure how good the available standalone-IRs are .. I only know that "Halls of Fame" for example are really crap. You can get better IRs for free.
From what I hear the IRs of Numerical Sound should be top-notch, but since I don't have them I can't comment.

Next thing is:
I personally feel, that (nearly) all IRs generated by algoverbs (or algoverbs themselfs) lack the ER-depth of real rooms, which is important to place instruments in some distance to you "in the room".
To me algoverbs can "add room" (or add "sparkle", "glitter", "niceness", "space", etc.), but (almost) fail at putting things _into_ a room in a distance.
So I personally would not buy any IR-library, which is made of algoverbs (since there are http://www.rhythminmind.net/presetblog/category/samples/impulse-sets/ (some quite good algo-IRs available for free), which should cover anything of that area).

About EQing:
I (almost) always EQ the reverb and don't see anything bad about it.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Apr 17, 2010)

Altiverb is a good plug in - but it has been surrounded in a lot of mystery - as in the prefered way to use it.


For example - Many people including Dietz have admitted that switching on the instrument placement thing makes the sound a bit phasy - yet for 2 years I left it on - and it was even Martin Spurujit's preset in Altiverb. SVK has said the same thing.

I like how Vienna Suite has videos to explain everything in detail. For some reason - I have been unable to get the kind of results I get from Vienna Convolution Reverb from Altiverb - may be because its a simpler interface yet with all the powerful controls in there. 

Some of the IR's in Altiverb sound dead too - and as Frederick has pointed out - the sound changes dramatically in every room - as would be expected - but sometimes, its just weird - something I have not felt so drastically in a bad way in VS. 

I think it may be right to say that having both Convolution and Algo Reverbs is the way to go.


The new Aether just sounds fantastic - and I can say with little testing that it is possible to make instruments sound as if they are in a room - It does make music sound nicer. But its just a Brilliant sounding Reverb - of course has to be used correctly.


Its right in saying that you generally need EQ on most things - this I realised after I got VS - I started with the presets and then started tweaking them in my template. It just changed the sound quite a bit and I think that has helped as well. 


Managing Reverbs is also very difficult generally - if you want good results that is.



Tanuj.


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## Polarity (Apr 17, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Sat 17 Apr said:


> ... and like the final wash to be true stereo Bricasti M7 (Boston or Amsterdam Hall) which is what I started using and liking in Wizoo W2 before I was no longer able to use it when switching to intel Mac. The Bricasti M7 True stereo IR is really superb for orchestral. ...



I still use Wizoo W2 'cause I always found it a very good quality reverb plugin and enough for me (for new age and electronic things).
The hybrid approach (IRs and algos) was also a reason for my choice.
Beside that I use also the Masterverb PRO inside the digital mixer of Pulsar/Scope audiocards, but that one is algos only.

Usually in past I didn't use the IR reverbs, just algos only, but recently I got on them for the orchestral use.
After reading your post Frederick I went for the download of the Bricasti M7 IRs..
I'll try them with W2.
I found the normal stereo (Acousticas' free library) and the true stereo (another free library collection) wavs. But only Waves IR-1 or Logic presets with them.
Do you know if there are around something for W2 too for the two Halls you mentioned?
Or will be enough to import them and make my settings?

In the meanwhile thanks for the suggestion.


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 17, 2010)

Sure - I used to import the Bricasti True Stereo impulses all the time into Wizoo W2 - import the L & R channels. And honestly - if Wizoo worked with Mac Intel, I would still be using it because the entire HDIR concept used True Stereo before it became the rage these days.


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## SvK (Apr 17, 2010)

it's the IRs.......that's it.

I use SpaceDesigner. But I do NOT use SPace Designer IR's...

I use the Altiverb IR's of Todd AO in Space Designer.

You can not tell the difference.

SvK


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 17, 2010)

vibrato @ Sat Apr 17 said:


> I have just purchased Aether. I am not sure how to use it effectively - I will have to work hard to create different instances for the orchestra.
> 
> How are you using Aether Frederick ?



When I write, I try to keep nearly all the reverb off completely so its like starting off with a super dry template. Then I add in ambience like rooms and halls (Todd AO with tweak Q) on many of the instruments that need them (and completely leaving alone others that don't). Special attention is placed on Vienna Instruments so its a matter of choice - sometimes you can place short room spaces of Aether or Lexicon PCM Native on the bus of the solo woodwinds (which is what I use most from VSL) or use convolution IR to push them back. In the end, its a choice of using a final wash that is clean and enhances instead of takes away from the mix. Trial and error. I found that some IRs really shine in the end, then other instances where the final mix sounded best with Aether and occasionally Lexicon PCM (Lexi is a dense reverb which probably would serve better on instrument bus in orchestral settings if at all because of the light chorusing effect - which you can actually turn off too). 



Dietz @ Sat Apr 17 said:


> Without taking the thread off-topic too much, I would like to know if you (or anybody here) really thinks that there is the "secret, hidden set of tools" somewhere on earth that magically _always_ is right out of the box ... 8-)



Perhaps not "always" in terms of sounding great out of the box, but my short list of things that lean to sounding great out of the box would include Wizoo W2, Project SAM Symphobia and Project SAM True Strike 1.

Regarding Q, I found one of the better ways to shoot for a more transparent Q against your mix is to match EQ the actual IR with pink noise. You can find wave files to compare against here:

http://www.burninwave.com/ 

That said, there are no absolutes as you know.



SvK @ Sat Apr 17 said:


> it's the IRs.......that's it.
> 
> I use SpaceDesigner. But I do NOT use SPace Designer IR's...
> 
> ...



Absolutely agree. I think there is a way to have Space Designer output to two channels (L&R) by creative routing in Logic. I've really appreciated the tutorials you've given in the past regarding getting the most out of Logic overall.

One of the recommended true stereo convolution engines (free by the way - considered "charity ware" for donations) for both Mac & PC is reverberate:

http://www.liquidsonics.com/software_reverberate.htm

Its a very powerful convolution engine that actually sounds nice out of the box. Fairly straightforward to point to your favorite IR directory to import your halls.


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## gsilbers (Apr 17, 2010)

interesting info. i thought the thread was going to go completely opposite of this and everyone praising altiverb the plugin. of course the features are really cool.


so are the TODD AO u refering to this ones http://www.acoustics.net/ir/ir_samp.asp ... spacesize=
SKV?

i also found a few other sites;


http://www.numericalsound.com/sound-products.html


http://noisevault.com/nv/


http://www.rhythminmind.net/presetblog/category/samples/impulse-sets/ (http://www.rhythminmind.net/presetblog/ ... ulse-sets/)



im intrigued by numericalsound. each library is about 200 bucks!! that way steeper than any other one. anyone have them? 

im not convinced by their demos. nothing special and the altiverb demos sounded a lot better. heck imo the EOS sounded better! 

thats the thing id want to compare altiverb side by side with other good IRs and see the difference on the IRs. specially the TODD AO one. 
maybe in gearslutz, they are more into shoot outs and stuff.


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## Polarity (Apr 18, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Sat 17 Apr said:


> Sure - I used to import the Bricasti True Stereo impulses all the time into Wizoo W2 - import the L & R channels. And honestly - if Wizoo worked with Mac Intel, I would still be using it because the entire HDIR concept used True Stereo before it became the rage these days.



Yes, it was ahead of the times.
Thanks. 
I will try them for sure.


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## PasiP (May 10, 2010)

How many of you EQ your IR's and do you have any general tips for EQ:ing IR's? Where to cut and how much etc..


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## raweber (May 14, 2010)

Kind of careening back to the original topic... 0oD 

Does any other convo reverb have Altiverb's stage positioning function? I know a ton of users who swear by it! I saw earlier that some users here may not like it much, but more seem to love it than not. If no oother program else has it, that seems like a huge advantage to Altiverb.

Of course, if you don't use stage position, then go grab Reverberate and save yourself some dough...

And, for the record, I EQ my reverbs all the time.


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