# Your orchestral setup.



## Tice (Jul 20, 2018)

What setup do you use for non-epic orchestral work? (Number of players per instrument, location within the orchestra, any non-standard additions to the orchestra, and so forth)
My standard setup is 1 piccolo, 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 1 cor anglais, 2 clarinets, 1 bass clarinet, 1 bassoon, 1 contra bassoon, 3 horns, 1 tuba, 3 trombones, 3 trumpets, 1 bass trombone, timpani, harp, and I add a steel-string and nylon acoustic guitar. Then the standard string section. Of note in the placement is that my guitars are right in front where the soloists would be. The harp is moved to the back left, and the woodwinds form 2 rows in the center with bassoons and clarinets behind flutes and oboes. I also have a habbit of adding medieval or exotic percussion. I reckon the lacking of a forth horn might seem odd, but I find four is usually too powerfull. Also of note, my basses are to the far right, not behind the celli, but beside them. 
How about your orchestral setup?


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## shawnsingh (Jul 20, 2018)

For "traditional orchestral" stuff, I like to consider 2 bassoons + 1 contra, 4 horns.
I also find a traditional percussion section (more than just timpani) to be very handy for colors:
bass drum/triangle/castanets/chimes/snare/cymbals/tam tams all have a role they can play

A side note, though -

when you say that four horns can become too powerful, it sounds like you're intending to only use them in unison. That's fine if you want, but don't discount the power of spreading out solo instruments to play multiple notes. Actually I think this is one of the overlooked techniques to getting power from an orchestra. Having multiple of the same instrument playing the same note has a phasing and diffusing effect (in real life) - mid frequencies become stronger relative to the high frequencies, and spatial precision of the unison gets lost. Sometimes - not always - that can have an "anti-epic" effect, because the bite, piercing quality, and immersive stereo image can get sucked away. Using less unison - it's not the only way to get power from an orchestra, but I do think it's a technique that gets overlooked a lot.

I think 4 horns is actually quite standard in orchestral music and is great for lush thick chords (think E.T. flying theme). Same for bassoons - I believe 2 is more standard, and assigning each woodwind instrument to a different note (favoring doubling across instruments rather than doubling for the same instrument) is a great way to spread the colors to create cohesive woodwind "choir" chords. Again, I feel like these are just additional techniques that are easily overlooked, not really "a better way to always do things" =) That's why I go for 4 horns and 2 bassoons.


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## Sami (Jul 21, 2018)

2 Flutes+ Piccolo
2 Oboes+ English Horn
2 Clarinets+ Bass Clarinet
2 Bassoons+ Contrabassoon

4 Horns, 3 Trumpets, 3 Trombones, Tuba

Harp, Celesta, Mallet Percussion (Usually Xylo and Glock or Vibra and Glock)

4 Timpani, Cymbals, Snare, Bass Drum, Tam-Tam (and whatever auxilliaries)

16-14-12-10-8 Strings

That is my standard setup for everything.

If I want a more chamber sound I strike one of the woods, reduce the trumpets and trombones by 1, remove the tuba and cut the strings to 8-6-6-4-3 or even smaller (Depends a bit on the sound I am looking for, I thing Violas are underrated in that they can be very flexible in a smaller section for both enlarging the cello section and the violins so you can almost have a symphonic sound if you do Vn 1+2 in unison and viola in the octave below or a smooth bass heavy sound if you do violas and celli in unison and basses below.

I only compose for live players btw, so YMMV in regards to VIs especially considering string section sizes but I find the following libraries or combos to work extremely well for mock-ups:

CineStrings and CineString Solos for a very rich, symphonic sound with the added clarity of the solo part
SSS only
SCS with the new solos (a brilliant library)
Albion ONE with additional solos (used to use CineString solos but going to use the Spitfire ones now, CineSamples and Spitfire blend quite well in general though).

For a more eclectic choice I like Light and Sound Strings very much, they can hold their own as a chamber section or you can use two of each as a small symphonic section and just double the parts with slight panning differences or use them as a divisi patch.

For more specialized applications nothing beats Albion V and LSO strings, but those are a bit off the beaten path.

Regarding placement, I do (from left to right): Violins I, violas, Celli (directly facing the audience) and violins II on the right with basses behind the Violins II. I truly like the „stereo image“ effect with the two violin lines when I do counterpoint and I think the violas can show their flexibility best between violins and celli. Also having two violin groups facing different ways makes the sound just different enough to add interest in my eyes.

A great resource on balance in orchestral sections is the late Peter Alexander‘s work, cannot recommend enough.

_S


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## Tice (Jul 21, 2018)

I love seeing other people's setups! Especially the thinking behind it is very interesting.
@shawnsingh You're right, I do often use the horns in unison. When I do use them separately I tend to add the bass trombone to make full chords. But this happens very rarely in the projects I've been involved with so far. I am often asked to write quite intimate music, and I have trouble fitting the whole brass section into that. I'd absolutely love to do a Wagnerian setup though and take the breaks off... The right project needs to come along. The anti-epic effect you mentioned is rather the point though. Since usually I try to avoid the epic effect as much as possible. (it just doesn't fit with the project)

@Sami That's almost a Wagner's Valkury string section you've got there! Those 8 basses must be quite powerful!
I love the way you place them! In my setup you kind of get a panning from high pitch to low pitch (left to right) but you have your pitch ranges distributed more evenly. 
I'll look into Peter Alexander...


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## Sami (Jul 21, 2018)

Tice said:


> I love seeing other people's setups! Especially the thinking behind it is very interesting.
> @shawnsingh You're right, I do often use the horns in unison. When I do use them separately I tend to add the bass trombone to make full chords. But this happens very rarely in the projects I've been involved with so far. I am often asked to write quite intimate music, and I have trouble fitting the whole brass section into that. I'd absolutely love to do a Wagnerian setup though and take the breaks off... The right project needs to come along. The anti-epic effect you mentioned is rather the point though. Since usually I try to avoid the epic effect as much as possible. (it just doesn't fit with the project)
> 
> @Sami That's almost a Wagner's Valkury string section you've got there! Those 8 basses must be quite powerful!
> ...



It‘s modelled after a Mahler size string section. Thing with strings is that „volume“ and „loudness“ are very different, if you know what I mean. I find the smooth sound from a large section playing softly to be valuable in some settings and the detailed sound from a smaller section playing softly valuable in others. In general though, I find more flexibility in large sections with the potential to run up against the brass. That said, I never write for more than 6 horns and the maximum I ever used was 4 trumpets.


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## Tice (Jul 21, 2018)

I think that philosophy is quite similar to what's at the core of the Hans Zimmer strings by Spitfire. (though I don't own that) I definitely agree with what you're saying though!


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## Saxer (Jul 21, 2018)

Similar setup here... 
picc, 2 flutes, 2 oboes... etc, 4 horns, 3 trumpets, 2 tenor- and 1 bass trombone, tuba, strings.
But I like to use celeste and glockenspiel, marimba and xylophone, sometimes vibes. Cymbals, triangle, toms etc if needed.

For chamber style I mostly have 4 WWs (clarinet doubling bass clarinet), 1 horn, 2 trombones.


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## TimCox (Aug 6, 2018)

3 flutes (1 doubling piccolo)
2 Oboes
1 English Horn
2 Bb Clarinets
1 Bass Clarinet
2 Bassoons (1 doubling Contrabassoon)

4 Horns
3 Trumpets
2 Trombones
1 Bass Trombone
1 Tuba

Timpani
Percussion (I try not to go any higher than 5 players necessary but I have a Suite that calls for 7)

Harp (1 to 2)
Strings (Anywhere from 16/14/12/10/8 to smaller)

I find myself shying away from overly large brass sections as I think you lose definition in the sound and they honestly begin to sound "synthy" for lack of a better word. I'll occasionally go 6/4/2/1/1 with the brass if I need/want more powerful chordal work. Being able to make a triad where the horns can double each note to lay in with the trumpets can be nice. Overall I like the sound of 4 horns breaking off from each other better because they have definition and won't take over when they need to fill in the background


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## JJP (Aug 6, 2018)

I like to have the following ready, but I usually don't use all of it:

3 Fl
Afl
Picc

2 Ob
1 EH

3 Cl
B Cl

3 Bsn
1 Cbn

4 Hn
4 Tpt
3 Tbn
1 Bs Tbn
1 Tuba

Perc
Perc Keys (bells, xlyo, chimes, etc)
Timp

Hrp
Piano

String section
Having the 3rd Fl, Cl and Bsn in the template gives the option to write full chords on one instrument. Sometimes that can be handy, especially for moody material. Sometimes I'll add more alto flutes as well. Alto flutes can be a great texture when written in chords for certain situations.

Having the 4th trumpet can be handy for jazz/pop type voicings, 4-way close, drop 2, that sort of thing, and they work well for interlocking voicings with the lower brass. Oh, I also like to have flugels handy too, but I didn't list them because they are often only loaded up if I think I may need them.

3 tenor bones means you can do a full 3-note voicing up in the range where they really sing. Then you still have the independent bass bone to sometimes double the tuba when you want that big round tuba tone but still need that bass tbn edge.

I think you'll notice that I'm not basing the extra instruments on making things sound bigger. It's more to have them in the template if I want them for harmonic or textural considerations.

Probably a big part of my thinking comes from working with smaller TV studio orchestras which often mimic a big band with strings and perc. That lineup gives you a huge amount of variety in colors and style. When the winds can each cover 4-5 (or more!) different instruments, you have a lot of options in a small package. In a DAW that ends up being a lot of tracks for something that is pretty simple live.

The Oscars uses a versatile lineup like this to cover everything from film scores to funk.


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## CT (Aug 6, 2018)

2 flutes + alto flute
2 oboes + cor anglais (sometimes just 2 oboes with the second doubling on the cor anglais)
2 clarinets + bass clarinet (sometimes with the 2nd doubling bass clarinet and the bass clarinet doubling contrabass)
2 bassoons + contrabassoon

4 - 6 horns
1 - 3 trumpets (sometimes flugelhorns instead)
3 trombones (2 tenor + bass)
tuba

Not much percussion. Timpani, bass drum, suspended cymbal, a tam-tam or several in different sizes, vibraphone, the occasional tubular bells, triangle, mark tree....

Piano. Maybe a harp, celesta, organ. Probably at least one more keyboard player to do live synth parts.

A choir would be nice. Who doesn't love choral music?

The usual strings, 16/14/12/10/8.

Given the chance to work with real players, I prefer clarinets in A, and trumpets in Bb with piccolo trumpets for any high stuff.

As far as string positions go, I usually will just go for the regular high = left, low = right thing, but sometimes splitting the violins left and right sounds great. In that setup, having the cellos projecting straight out by putting them mid-right, and giving the F-holes on the violas a rare chance to speak directly out to the audience/microphones at mid-left also sounds pretty great. I think which sounds best depends on the music being played.


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## Saxer (Aug 6, 2018)

JJP said:


> Probably a big part of my thinking comes from working with smaller TV studio orchestras which often mimic a big band with strings and perc. That lineup gives you a huge amount of variety in colors and style. When the winds can each cover 4-5 (or more!) different instruments, you have a lot of options in a small package. In a DAW that ends up being a lot of tracks for something that is pretty simple live.


I love that good old TV orchestra style! I like to watch old stupid 80s series like Matlock or Scarecrow and Mrs. King just because of the beautiful underscoring


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## Gerbil (Aug 6, 2018)

Noteperformer 3 if I'm writing for real players and want to play it to someone first. Often a simple classical double woodwind sized orchestra.

For sample libraries I'll chuck anything and everything in and pay zero attention to numbers and sizes; whatever sounds best.


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## JJP (Aug 7, 2018)

miket said:


> I prefer clarinets in A


May I ask why? Do you like writing in particular keys that make A clarinet preferable?


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## CT (Aug 7, 2018)

No. Just prefer the seemingly darker timbre. It's purely psychological, I'm sure.

Now that I think about it, I don't actually mind except in those few moments when you have two clarinets in unison. Especially in high registers, the Bb's sound a little "accordion-esque" to me, while the A's maintain a more mellow quality.


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## JJP (Aug 7, 2018)

miket said:


> Just prefer the seemingly darker timbre. It's purely psychological, I'm sure.


You a clarinetist? In most cases people can't tell the difference between an A or a Bb clarinet unless one is playing something written for the other. Usually the change is just for ease of performance in certain keys.


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## CT (Aug 7, 2018)

I'm not, no, I just have obsessive (delusional?) ears. 

One of my friends is a fantastic clarinetist/saxophonist, though. I asked him if players would hate me if I requested A's even when Bb's would be easier. His thinking was that any players worth their salt aren't going to get even remotely twisted up by something like that, but then, this is a laid back jazz guy we're talking about.


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## JJP (Aug 7, 2018)

miket said:


> I asked him if players would hate me if I requested A's even when Bb's would be easier. His thinking was that any players worth their salt aren't going to get even remotely twisted up by something like that



That also makes it much more difficult for the player to give a good performance. Any gains in tone could easily be offset by the awkwardness of the instrument. (Not to mention that certain keys are exactly where the difference in tone becomes apparent.) That's the whole reason for having A and Bb clarinets. Some simple things get pretty wonky when played on the other instrument.

Though, I come from the studio world where there are often no rehearsals and we're trying to do everything we can to make things as simple as possible for the performers who are under a lot of pressure to sight-read perfectly.

That said, there is a sad number of composers and orchestrators out there who don't even think about A clarinet and would just write everything for Bb anyway regardless of the key... which is why we end up with stuntmen and women in the studios in LA. 


Edit: If we want to consider this discussion we should probably move to a new thread. We're hijacking now. Sorry, OP!


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## CT (Aug 7, 2018)

Oh yeah, if we were talking about a scoring session with a high degree of time-is-money tension in the air, I'd do my best to avoid anything that would make things harder than necessary.


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## Jazzaria (Aug 7, 2018)

Re: A versus Bb clarinet - imo any color difference is overwhelmed by setup (mouthpiece, ligature, reed). Any diverse clarinetist will have several setups, e.g. an open bright mouthpiece and a closed dark mouthpiece, and tend to use the open for jazz and closed for classical. That's a bit of a simplification, but the point is it matters more than the slightly longer length of the A.

So yes it really is mostly about mechanics (making certain things easier to play), and yes most decent players can transpose most things (though e.g. 3rd movement of Shostakovich's 9th Symphony is for example a bear on Bb - it's doable, but just won't sound as smooth as the same player on A as it involves constant side keys with Bb). And there are also occasions where the A going a half step lower is critical - for example, the "cat" solo in Peter and the Wolf goes to the bottom note on A (which is below the bottom range of Bb unless you have a full Boehm model, which is quite rare).

EDIT - aforementioned symphonic excerpt:


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## Mr. Ha (Aug 11, 2018)

My setup is usually something like this:
3 flutes, 1 doubling picc
2 oboes
1 english horn
2 clarinets
1 bass clarinet
2 bassoons
1 contrabassoon

4 horns
3 trumpets
2 trombones
1 bass trombone
1 tuba

Various orchestral percussion like timpani, bass drum, gong, Tamtam, cymbals, woodblocks etc

Harp, celesta, marimba, piano

Strings 16/14/12/10/8


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## Tice (Aug 11, 2018)

Chiming in from my vacation spot in Lithuania: I love seeing all these setups and the discussions on why to use what. It's exactly what I was hoping for. So if you want to discuss why to use an A clarinet over a Bb one, by all means! The difference in brass sections is also fascinating to me!


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