# Replacing my Fadermaster Pro



## AlexRuger (Dec 9, 2016)

So, my beloved JL Cooper Fadermaster Pro died. The company doesn't support these things anymore (mine's too old for them to care), and even if I were to get it fixed, it'd be a pain to keep it going. It's just old.

The lack of really quality MIDI fader control surfaces is a huge bummer, but I can't afford to put money into something that will just die again. I need a product with active support from its company.

So, a replacement is needed.

The only two I've found that will _really _give me what I need are the Behringer X-Touch Compact and the Icon Platform M. Anyone have any experience with either of these?

These are both touch-sensitive and motorized--the JL Cooper was neither. I had a Behringer BCF2000 and I always had to fight the motors, so I'm a little leery of using a motorized control surface. Though, the BCF2000 wasn't touch sensitive. Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the motors disengage while writing CC data if it's touch sensitive? If so, that'll be actually be pretty cool--I won't have to guess CC levels when overwriting data.

Anyways, if anyone has any experience with these, it'd be much appreciated. Thanks!


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## Jake (Dec 9, 2016)

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/need-a-small-midi-controller-with-nice-faders.56562/

This might help.


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## Smikes77 (Dec 9, 2016)

http://www.vi-control.net/community/threads/midi-controller.53051/


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## synthpunk (Dec 9, 2016)

Love my Behringer X-touch Compact. Very good build quality smooth faders and extra knobs for soft synth and plug-in control Jeff Rona recommended it I believe mine was 369.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Dec 10, 2016)

Why not just buy another? I just bought a brand new one two months ago. If you got years of good service out of it, you could just purchase a fresh one. I didn't want motorized faders, I did want 100mm long-throw faders and not 60mm ones. The JL Cooper fit the bill perfectly.


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## AlexRuger (Dec 10, 2016)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Why not just buy another? I just bought a brand new one two months ago. If you got years of good service out of it, you could just purchase a fresh one. I didn't want motorized faders, I did want 100mm long-throw faders and not 60mm ones. The JL Cooper fit the bill perfectly.


New ones are just insanely over-priced, and they don't feel nearly as good as the old ones. The new ones have a blue diamond to the left of the faders, and the older ones have a white one. I find the faders on the new ones to be no better than most other control surfaces out there, so there's no reason to drop, like, a grand on them.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 10, 2016)

What DAW are you using? Most of the time touch sensitive and motorized faders are useless for midi CC unless you're using it as automation data. Because of that, I'd consider just getting a BCF2000 and saving a couple of hundred dollars. If you're using it for automation then I'd consider the X-touch but I don't think it can follow your track selection since it's mackie control so I'd get a single Faderport instead for that. I use a BCF2000 and a Faderport and it's great.


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## AlexRuger (Dec 10, 2016)

Cubase, and yes I'm worried about that. I've asked around and haven't gotten a clear answer as to whether the motors on the X-Touch are disengaged while using it with the piano roll. 

I used to own a BCF2000 and that thing drove me crazy. Never again, hated that unit with a passion.

I'm probably going with an Icon Platform M, but I'm considering going with an SSL Nucleus and setting it all up with the Generic Remote. Could have a few faders for MIDI CC and a few for fader riding.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 10, 2016)

As a generic remote you can't get touch sensitivity so having faders there is pretty useless for working with automation. You either need a mackie emulation or a device with it's own setup (like the Faderport) to have touch sensitivity. 

What didn't you like about the BCF2000? The X-touch will do the exact same thing if you're using it for midi cc. Aside from it not being the greatest thing to look at, I've never had issues with it.


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## AlexRuger (Dec 10, 2016)

I hated the sound of the motors, and because it wasn't touch sensitive, the motors never shut off and would constantly fight me when doing CC's.

Yeah, I know that I'll lose out on touch sensitivity if I set it up through the generic remote, but using the R and T flags I'll at least be able to specify fader movement in the faders I'll use for fader rides instead of CC's. That'd be a cool way of splitting up a control surface. That's only with the SSL Nucleus that I'd do that with, though.

But, now that I think about it, losing out on touch sensitivity with motorized faders would give me the same problem I had with the BCF2000. Sigh...


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 11, 2016)

If you were using the BCF2000 as a midi controller it wouldn't have the motors running. Midi CC's don't get sent back out in Cubase unless you're using it as automation data. It's been years since the motors on mine got any use (when I tried having it in Mackie emulation).

I'd say either use a control surface in it's native/mackie emulation mode or forget about motors or touch sensitivity as they're pretty well useless. You need to decide whether you want to use this for CC or everything else and make your decision accordingly. Unless you're going to "hack" a control surface like the Eucons similar to what Trevor Morris did, you can't get both in 1 control surface. Nothing that I know of lets you toggle between native support with touch sensitivity and midi control straight out of the box.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 11, 2016)

[QUOTE="Gerhard Westphalen, post: 4028036, member: 9286" Nothing that I know of lets you toggle between native support with touch sensitivity and midi control straight out of the box.[/QUOTE]

Sure sounds like a business opportunity for someone.


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## jononotbono (Dec 11, 2016)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Why not just buy another? I just bought a brand new one two months ago. If you got years of good service out of it, you could just purchase a fresh one. I didn't want motorized faders, I did want 100mm long-throw faders and not 60mm ones. The JL Cooper fit the bill perfectly.



Exactly how my brain is thinking. Love mine and would hate to be without it.


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## tack (Dec 11, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Unless you're going to "hack" a control surface like the Eucons similar to what Trevor Morris did, you can't get both in 1 control surface. Nothing that I know of lets you toggle between native support with touch sensitivity and midi control straight out of the box.


I have my control surface (iCON Platform M) funneling through Bome MIDI Translator Pro, and I have some of my faders that are bidirectionally synchronized (my master fader which controls RME TotalMix FX, and a track fader that controls the currently selected track in my DAW) and some that are used for CC control like modulation and expression.

Currently those CC controls aren't bidirectionally synced with my DAW but I have some ideas on how this will be possible. Probably not all DAWs would support that though.

But the basic idea is that BMT acts as a proxy between the DAW and the control surface and you can program it to do pretty much anything you can think of.


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## InLight-Tone (Dec 11, 2016)

Daniel James uses a lowly Korg nanoKontrol?!?


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 11, 2016)

tack said:


> I have my control surface (iCON Platform M) funneling through Bome MIDI Translator Pro, and I have some of my faders that are bidirectionally synchronized (my master fader which controls RME TotalMix FX, and a track fader that controls the currently selected track in my DAW) and some that are used for CC control like modulation and expression.
> 
> Currently those CC controls aren't bidirectionally synced with my DAW but I have some ideas on how this will be possible. Probably not all DAWs would support that though.
> 
> But the basic idea is that BMT acts as a proxy between the DAW and the control surface and you can program it to do pretty much anything you can think of.



That's what I meant by hack. Trevor Morris uses Bidule to do it to his S3. I did a similar thing to my Faderport in Max so that I could hit a button and have it switch between the normal fader and midi CC's. I never finished setting it all up but I think it would be great for travelling since you could do normal mixing and any CC's on a full sized fader all with a tiny footprint


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## AlexRuger (Dec 11, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Exactly how my brain is thinking. Love mine and would hate to be without it.


Again, not really an option.



tack said:


> I have my control surface (iCON Platform M) funneling through Bome MIDI Translator Pro, and I have some of my faders that are bidirectionally synchronized (my master fader which controls RME TotalMix FX, and a track fader that controls the currently selected track in my DAW) and some that are used for CC control like modulation and expression.
> 
> Currently those CC controls aren't bidirectionally synced with my DAW but I have some ideas on how this will be possible. Probably not all DAWs would support that though.
> 
> But the basic idea is that BMT acts as a proxy between the DAW and the control surface and you can program it to do pretty much anything you can think of.



I'm leaning towards the Platform M over everything else. Sounds exactly what I'm looking for.

Though, I do like the idea of having bidirectional CC's. It isn't a workflow killer at all to have to hunt for the right starting value (Cubase thankfully tells you how far off you are from the current value--very handy, thanks Steinberg), but I could see it being cool to have my CC1, 11, and 7 pop into the right place. I've currently running a few Lemur faders and I've gotten bidirectionality to work on it, and it's definitely nifty.

Could you go into more detail regarding how you're thinking of setting that up?


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## tack (Dec 11, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> Could you go into more detail regarding how you're thinking of setting that up?


I use Reaper, so I'm not sure how helpful it would be for you. But basically the idea is a custom Reaper script that, when a track is selected, sets up MIDI output on the track (exclusively) to the Platform-M so the control surface will receive current CC values during playback. And the script would remember the last CC values on that track so when the track is selected, all the current CC values will get blasted to the control surface.

I did a proof-of-concept a couple weeks ago and I think it will work nicely. But again obviously entirely specific to Reaper. Perhaps Cubase would allow a similar kind of approach.


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## AlexRuger (Dec 11, 2016)

Oh awesome. Yes, with the generic remote using the Receive and Transmit flags, I think you could achieve the same thing.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 11, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> Oh awesome. Yes, with the generic remote using the Receive and Transmit flags, I think you could achieve the same thing.



Except that you can't set midi CC's in the generic remote. I've tried a similar thing to tack's method of routing the CC data back out to the control surface on a selected track but could never get it to work in Cubase.


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## AlexRuger (Dec 11, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Except that you can't set midi CC's in the generic remote. I've tried a similar thing to tack's method of routing the CC data back out to the control surface on a selected track but could never get it to work in Cubase.



Ugh, that's right! Really wish Steinberg would implement this.


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## synthpunk (Dec 12, 2016)

The newer Behringer has a midi CC mode button so you can switch back and forth


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## muk (Dec 12, 2016)

synthpunk said:


> The newer Behringer has a midi CC mode button so you can switch back and forth



The Behringer X-Touch can record midi cc? Does the motorization work on midi as well? This device looks more interesting by the minute. Though I wonder if it would really speed up my mixing. I rarely use channel volume, after all. Most of the balancing I do is with cc1. Maybe something like the Softube Console 1 would suit me better. I like the concept of hardware control for channel eq/compressor/gate.


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## synthpunk (Dec 12, 2016)

It has a switch so you can toggle between fader mode and midi CC mode. I have only used to motorize a shin for fader moves so far.

Console 1 is designed to work with softube plugins and Rumor Has It some uad plug-ins next year. I think that's what it will be best for.



muk said:


> The Behringer X-Touch can record midi cc? Does the motorization work on midi as well? This device looks more interesting by the minute. Though I wonder if it would really speed up my mixing. I rarely use channel volume, after all. Most of the balancing I do is with cc1. Maybe something like the Softube Console 1 would suit me better. I like the concept of hardware control for channel eq/compressor/gate.


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## Amadeus (Jul 28, 2017)

AlexRuger said:


> Again, not really an option.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Alex! I know that this thread is quite old but I was wondering if you went for the ICon Platform m eventually? I am thinking about getting one as well. What I wanna do with it is control mod/expr/vibrato and the mix of the mics. If you didn't get the platform m, what else did you choose and what are your experiences? Would really appreciate your review. 

Thanks!

Best,
Amadeus


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## synthpunk (Jul 28, 2017)

Check this one out as well, the third production run is just about to begin.
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/faderctrl-order-now.58734/



Amadeus said:


> Hey Alex! I know that this thread is quite old but I was wondering if you went for the ICon Platform m eventually? I am thinking about getting one as well. What I wanna do with it is control mod/expr/vibrato and the mix of the mics. If you didn't get the platform m, what else did you choose and what are your experiences? Would really appreciate your review.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...


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## Ashermusic (Jul 28, 2017)

+1 for the FaderControl. I love it.


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## samphony (Jul 28, 2017)

+2 for Coreys @CACKLAND awesome work!


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## higgs (Jul 28, 2017)

+3 for VADERCTRL. I love that little box.


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## stonzthro (Jul 28, 2017)

+4


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## AlexRuger (Jul 28, 2017)

Amadeus said:


> Hey Alex! I know that this thread is quite old but I was wondering if you went for the ICon Platform m eventually? I am thinking about getting one as well. What I wanna do with it is control mod/expr/vibrato and the mix of the mics. If you didn't get the platform m, what else did you choose and what are your experiences? Would really appreciate your review.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...


Still with the JL Cooper, but I'm probably looking to pick up the FADERCTRL at some point.


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## topaz (Aug 13, 2018)

Old thread but I have no idea who this could be efficient as there is no way to see what you are controlling with no lcd display.




synthpunk said:


> Love my Behringer X-touch Compact. Very good build quality smooth faders and extra knobs for soft synth and plug-in control Jeff Rona recommended it I believe mine was 369.


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## AlexRuger (Aug 13, 2018)

I recently switched to the X-Touch Compact and it rocks. Hardly an issue to just remember which CC's it's set to like every other controller out there...


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## robgb (Aug 13, 2018)

I always liked hardware controllers, but tried TouchOSC about a year ago and haven't looked back. $5 and I have endless midi controllers via wi-fi.


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## sostenuto (Aug 13, 2018)

AlexRuger said:


> I recently switched to the X-Touch Compact and it rocks. Hardly an issue to just remember which CC's it's set to like every other controller out there...



Hmmmm …….. checking out now and Amazon has at $300. !


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## sostenuto (Aug 13, 2018)

robgb said:


> I always liked hardware controllers, but tried TouchOSC about a year ago and haven't looked back. $5 and I have endless midi controllers via wi-fi.



Ha!! Gotta be on sumpin bigger than Tablet / Smartphone for oldheimers dudes  Might try on Android phone with stylus …. assuming I can see what I'm stylin ……


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## robgb (Aug 13, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> Ha!! Gotta be on sumpin bigger than Tablet / Smartphone for oldheimers dudes  Might try on Android phone with stylus …. assuming I can see what I'm stylin ……


I use a 7-inch Amazon Fire tablet. $30 on sale. I set up an x/y pad for expression and vibrato, so all I have to do is drag my thumb or finger across the tablet for really precise control. I love that the x/y pad allows you to control two CCs at once.


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## sostenuto (Aug 13, 2018)

robgb said:


> I use a 7-inch Amazon Fire tablet. $30 on sale. I set up an x/y pad for expression and vibrato, so all I have to do is drag my thumb or finger across the tablet for really precise control. I love that the x/y pad allows you to control two CCs at once.



Appreciate this ! Fire tab is doable.  
Went for early MS Surface RT and they bailed on RT improvements (left me hanging). I should poke around for possible Apps which could work.

THX and regards


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## RoyBatty (Aug 15, 2018)

robgb said:


> I use a 7-inch Amazon Fire tablet. $30 on sale. I set up an x/y pad for expression and vibrato, so all I have to do is drag my thumb or finger across the tablet for really precise control. I love that the x/y pad allows you to control two CCs at once.




Exactly. I use the CTRLR app on a Surface Pro. I have it setup with 11 faders. XY pad, a drop down menu where I can select all of my different VSTis by name and a bit of LUA backend code that resets each fader's CC number based on the menu selection. It works great, I don't have to worry about translating incoming CC numbers in Cubase. I just select the VSTi in the menu and start pushing faders.

I also have it setup to rename each fader to the name of the parameter it is controlling the CC number and the current fader value, for clarity.

It works nice.


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## jononotbono (Aug 15, 2018)

AlexRuger said:


> I recently switched to the X-Touch Compact and it rocks. Hardly an issue to just remember which CC's it's set to like every other controller out there...



It can control CCs? Ok, that's wicked. I thought it couldn't do that. I'm gonna look into them!


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## URL (Aug 17, 2018)

X-touch Compact
Working fine- with CC/Cubase 9.530


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## MrZarlton (Aug 29, 2018)

robgb said:


> I use a 7-inch Amazon Fire tablet. $30 on sale. I set up an x/y pad for expression and vibrato, so all I have to do is drag my thumb or finger across the tablet for really precise control. I love that the x/y pad allows you to control two CCs at once.


Just saw this comment and set this up myself on my iPad. I was on the hunt for a fader controller, but no more - love the XY to control 2 cc's at once!


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## MrZarlton (Aug 30, 2018)

Just created a custom set of pages for my iPad with various useful controls. Key switches are just for CSS at the moment. Loving this workflow much more than my Korg nanoKontrol. So far I have a couple of XY pages; Modulation with Expression (expression only between values 50-127 so it can give just an extra push if required) and Expression and Vibrato. I can see this getting addictive!


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## j3tman (Nov 23, 2018)

Wow, I was just about to buy a Fadermaster Pro too, but it just felt a little like I wasn't getting much bang for the buck these days. Maybe i'll look into this touch OSC thing too...


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## whiskers (Jan 2, 2019)

robgb said:


> I use a 7-inch Amazon Fire tablet. $30 on sale. I set up an x/y pad for expression and vibrato, so all I have to do is drag my thumb or finger across the tablet for really precise control. I love that the x/y pad allows you to control two CCs at once.


What app do you use to get the XY pad? Does it work over Wi-Fi or Bluetooth? Thanks


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## robgb (Jan 3, 2019)

whiskers said:


> What app do you use to get the XY pad? Does it work over Wi-Fi or Bluetooth? Thanks


TouchOSC. Wifi.


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## whiskers (Jan 3, 2019)

robgb said:


> TouchOSC


Huh. Thought that was iOS only. Will have to look into that! Over Wi-Fi? Any lag?


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## robgb (Jan 3, 2019)

whiskers said:


> Huh. Thought that was iOS only. Will have to look into that! Over Wi-Fi? Any lag?


WiFi. No lag.


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## whiskers (Jan 3, 2019)

robgb said:


> WiFi. No lag.


Nice, hoping this would work with stuff like NI Thrill with the xy pad.

Reviews seem to indicate little support or upstair but we'll see


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## whiskers (Jan 3, 2019)

robgb said:


> WiFi. No lag.


Looks very intriguing. Reviews seem dicey though. Anyone else care to share their experience on android?


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## Havoc911 (Jan 4, 2019)

whiskers said:


> Anyone else care to share their experience on android?


I can't speak for TouchOSC, but it's cousin Lemur is very similar. I didn't have any issues with android, but the support is lacking.

With things like Metagrid (iOS) there's not much reason for anyone to stick with Lemur or TouchOSC. For me it was more economical to get a 27" touchscreen and 3rd party software. There's Dtouch, which I use, and a VST plugin from 14bitmidi.com that both give you access to macros and faders for MIDI CC manipulation. Having the ability to have an entire 27" screen filled with faders and macro buttons, and then switch to a more specific workspace, has really improved my workflow.


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## whiskers (Jan 4, 2019)

Havoc911 said:


> I can't speak for TouchOSC, but it's cousin Lemur is very similar. I didn't have any issues with android, but the support is lacking.
> 
> With things like Metagrid (iOS) there's not much reason for anyone to stick with Lemur or TouchOSC. For me it was more economical to get a 27" touchscreen and 3rd party software. There's Dtouch, which I use, and a VST plugin from 14bitmidi.com that both give you access to macros and faders for MIDI CC manipulation. Having the ability to have an entire 27" screen filled with faders and macro buttons, and then switch to a more specific workspace, has really improved my workflow.


Thanks. I wanted to avoid iOS products as I have an all PC/android setup  Just figured getting a cheap tablet would be an economical way to get an XY pad and some faders.

What did you use for your giant touchscreen? Also, can Metagrid work just fine with Cubase on PC? (I know it's an iOS app)


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## Havoc911 (Jan 4, 2019)

whiskers said:


> What did you use for your giant touchscreen? Also, can Metagrid work just fine with Cubase on PC? (I know it's an iOS app)



Yes, I believe Metagrid is fully compatible with Cubase on PC.

I used the Acer T272HL (the 1080p model), although there is an alternative method of converting any TV into a touchscreen with an IR overlay. This lets you affordably do ridiculous sizes. I almost did a 40" monitor, but as this was my first step into touchscreen solutions, I went with a smaller screen to try it out first.

I'm considering adding either a 2nd 27" Acer or moving to a single large (40-50") touch screen.


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## whiskers (Jan 4, 2019)

Havoc911 said:


> Yes, I believe Metagrid is fully compatible with Cubase on PC.
> 
> I used the Acer T272HL (the 1080p model), although there is an alternative method of converting any TV into a touchscreen with an IR overlay. This lets you affordably do ridiculous sizes. I almost did a 40" monitor, but as this was my first step into touchscreen solutions, I went with a smaller screen to try it out first.
> 
> I'm considering adding either a 2nd 27" Acer or moving to a single large (40-50") touch screen.


Nice. I'll probably go the Android app route as I was hoping to not spend too much, (android tablet or Chromebook should be cheaper than iPad) but nice setup.


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## Havoc911 (Jan 4, 2019)

Yeah I guess. It's more expensive, but not that much more expensive. Especially when you consider that the tablet is another (small at 10-12") peripheral device that needs to be charged as the battery drains fast from having the screen on for hours. It can't always be placed in an ergonomic position and to use it, you have to take your eyes off the screen.

You're going to pay $200-$300 for a tablet and then whatever software/template you end up buying. Whereas the touch screen is $450 + software. If you don't like the android Lemur/OSC solution, you've just wasted $300, whereas the touch screen still works as a touch screen even if you don't like a specific software product. You might even be able to use an android emulator to run lemur or touchosc from your PC.

Just some things to think about since the price points are relatively close.


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 4, 2019)




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## whiskers (Jan 4, 2019)

Havoc911 said:


> Yeah I guess. It's more expensive, but not that much more expensive. Especially when you consider that the tablet is another (small at 10-12") peripheral device that needs to be charged as the battery drains fast from having the screen on for hours. It can't always be placed in an ergonomic position and to use it, you have to take your eyes off the screen.
> 
> You're going to pay $200-$300 for a tablet and then whatever software/template you end up buying. Whereas the touch screen is $450 + software. If you don't like the android Lemur/OSC solution, you've just wasted $300, whereas the touch screen still works as a touch screen even if you don't like a specific software product. You might even be able to use an android emulator to run lemur or touchosc from your PC.
> 
> Just some things to think about since the price points are relatively close.



yeah, just seems like a pricey solution for a simple solution (for me) seeing as I mainly jut wanted an XY pad. There's other options though, like a Korg NanoPad2, I guess


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## sostenuto (Jan 4, 2019)

whiskers said:


> Thanks. I wanted to avoid iOS products as I have an all PC/android setup  Just figured getting a cheap tablet would be an economical way to get an XY pad and some faders.
> 
> What did you use for your giant touchscreen? Also, can Metagrid work just fine with Cubase on PC? (I know it's an iOS app)



I use Wacom Intuos tablet for Corel Paint stuff and need to see if it will do the X/Y work in Win10 Pro /Reaper. Not sure what software works and is best ...


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## whiskers (Jan 4, 2019)

sostenuto said:


> I use Wacom Intuos tablet for Corel Paint stuff and need to see if it will do the X/Y work in Win10 Pro /Reaper. Not sure what software works and is best ...


touchDAW seems maybe more promising than touchOSC, but IDK. I'll have to look more into it.


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## ed buller (Jan 4, 2019)

AlexRuger said:


> New ones are just insanely over-priced, and they don't feel nearly as good as the old ones. The new ones have a blue diamond to the left of the faders, and the older ones have a white one. I find the faders on the new ones to be no better than most other control surfaces out there, so there's no reason to drop, like, a grand on them.


They are easy faders to replace. Just did mine. 

best

e


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## Havoc911 (Jan 5, 2019)

whiskers said:


> yeah, just seems like a pricey solution for a simple solution (for me) seeing as I mainly jut wanted an XY pad. There's other options though, like a Korg NanoPad2, I guess


Sorry man, I was thinking you wanted more than just an XY pad for some reason.

I have used TouchDaw, but not so much the XY pad. I used it as a mix controller. There's also a selection of free lemur templates, one of which is dedicated to 4 XY pads. https://liine.net/en/community/user-library/


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