# CineBrassPRO - VIDEO Overview by Daniel James



## Daniel James (Nov 29, 2011)

Hey Guys,

I just put together a video showing Cinesamples' new library CineBrassPro and how I use it in my workflow.

I tried to make the demonstration piece very brass focused and I talk about why I decided to use the patches I did.

Overall I am extremely impressed with the library with quite a few of the patches becoming a main part of my 'go-to' folder, replacing some that I thought I would be using for a few more years at least.

Anyway here are the links 

VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKi4xC0nPXA ...might still be processing, it will eventually be 1080p

MP3: http://soundcloud.com/hybridtwo/progress-cinebrasspro

PLEASE NOTE: Due to some techinal difficulties with my screen recording software I had to record the system audio seperate from the recording software, because of which the sound may sometimes make a brief click or a slight audio distortion. KEEP IN MIND these are coming from the software and NOT the sample library. 

Let me know what you think guys 

Dan


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## Dan Mott (Nov 29, 2011)

Looking forward to it!


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## Steve Martin (Nov 29, 2011)

Hi Daniel,

this sounds great! Thanks for sharing your music with us.

I'm just curious to some of the other libraries used with these. Can you let use know?

Thanks and best,


Steve


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## RiffWraith (Nov 29, 2011)

Daniel James @ Wed Nov 30 said:


> VIDEO: ...still uploading, will update when its live



*HURRY!!!!!!*

:lol:


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## ontrackmusic (Nov 29, 2011)

F5, F5, F5...


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## Daniel James (Nov 29, 2011)

Video is now live  hope you guys find it useful 

Dan


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Nov 29, 2011)

I was the 2nd viewer!

Awesome composition!

Hey Daniel what VI are those drums at the end?


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 29, 2011)

Yay! Just started watching - just FYI the quality isn't as good as the normal Daniel James standard even at 720p, probably a function of the software problems you've been having, Dan. It sounds SoundClouded, urgh. But adjusting my ears to make allowances of course... OK, where was I...


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## Daniel James (Nov 30, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Nov 30 said:


> Yay! Just started watching - just FYI the quality isn't as good as the normal Daniel James standard even at 720p, probably a function of the software problems you've been having, Dan. It sounds SoundClouded, urgh. But adjusting my ears to make allowances of course... OK, where was I...



It should now be available to stream in 1080p...the video is a bit longer than normal AND I pumped up the quality a bit so that it can be viewed full screen for maximum fidelity. I'm guessing this combo made the processing take longer than normal.

"Hey Daniel what VI are those drums at the end?" A combo of Epic Toms/Dhol, Drums Of War, DAMAGE and Sync'd Cymbals from NineVolt Audio.

Dan


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## choc0thrax (Nov 30, 2011)

Really like those recorded chords.

What are you using for the short strings on this piece?


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## Daniel James (Nov 30, 2011)

choc0thrax @ Wed Nov 30 said:


> Really like those recorded chords.
> 
> What are you using for the short strings on this piece?



Symphobia and LASS...as usual 

Dan


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel James @ Wed Nov 30 said:


> It should now be available to stream in 1080p...the video is a bit longer than normal AND I pumped up the quality a bit so that it can be viewed full screen for maximum fidelity. I'm guessing this combo made the processing take longer than normal.



Just seen this - it doesn't really change the sound - my guess is with your software issues something got changed that compressed the audio before it got as far as YouTube. No complaints sir, just an observation....


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## Daniel James (Nov 30, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Nov 30 said:


> Daniel James @ Wed Nov 30 said:
> 
> 
> > It should now be available to stream in 1080p...the video is a bit longer than normal AND I pumped up the quality a bit so that it can be viewed full screen for maximum fidelity. I'm guessing this combo made the processing take longer than normal.
> ...



Yeah like I mentioned the audio quality sounds a bit off because of my recording issues, but it was this or nothing  I hope I made the right choice 

Dan


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel James @ Wed Nov 30 said:


> Yeah like I mentioned the audio quality sounds a bit off because of my recording issues, but it was this or nothing  I hope I made the right choice



Definitely better than nothing! It just starts me off on my soundcloud rants (I know this isn't soundcloud but it sounds like it, and it doesn't take much to set me off on the subject, frankly) - the same people who will spend $1,000 on an ssl plugin cos the eq is soooooo amazing will slap the mix up on soundcloud which buggers up the entire thing 1,000x more than any subtle eq modelling differences, but I digress. Actually Soundcloud is a great name, cos it clouds the sound. Personally I think all serious composers and developers should junk it without delay. Oh look I'm still digressing.

What? The video! Thanks a million, Dan. Overall I guess I'm left with the impression I had at the beginning. CB Pro is really nice, I want it, but for me personally doesn't quite flick the "essential" switch that Core did at its price point, even though its double the material. I'd have taken better legato transitions for 6 horns over the 12. The solo instruments are the highlight I think - they sound very good, and the polyphonic legato seems to work great with 'em - along with the low chords. Very similar to CineOrch, and that works so well. The triads etc I think are less useful, though as a fellow hack the 7th chords for InstaJazz might, ahem, _aid the composition process_ when stuck. In your video, Daniel, the low stabs sounded amazing with the percussion, but I'd be surprised if Symphobia 1 couldn't achieve the same effect.

It was great that CineSamples canvassed the community for a list of requests - I sorta wonder if RC didn't perhaps have a little more sway in the end (eg 12 horns), and it would be logical even if they did... they're the kings, and 50% of composers want to sound like them anyway. But personally I'm really sad the opportunity was lost to broaden it out a little further - just fall articulations would have been wonderful, and a shake or a doit or two the icing on the cake. It's far from uncommon to integrate a jazzier style into orchestral scores (been listening to the glorious Incredibles a lot lately....)

The bottom line is - do I need it? And it's borderline. Core gives you The Sound, Pro gives you more refinement. However, if it had even a very few big band artics, I'd have bought it on day 1, even though I have Broadway Big Band - to have the Sony sound and open up that style of playing to it would have made it an instant must-have. So for now, I'll wait... I'll probably go for it when it eventually makes the sales in Black Friday 2012, or if I really get frustrated without the solo instruments. I'll be also eager to see how the bonus patches turn out, that might sway me more actually - my dissatisfaction with the 6 horn legato could lead me to press the trigger if that was fixed. Best of all would be a 1.2 Core with more refinement on that... all the while that doesn't fulfil its potential, it is kind of joy-killer on future purchases. Don't get me wrong, it's 85% utterly incredible, but I'm still after the last 15%!

Phew. Once again thanks Daniel, a terrific resource as ever.


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## Christian Marcussen (Nov 30, 2011)

Can this stuff be played with old school keyswitches?

Thanks Dan.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 30, 2011)

Christian Marcussen @ Wed Nov 30 said:


> Can this stuff be played with old school keyswitches?
> 
> Thanks Dan.



I can answer that one - yes. Every articulation patch has an old-school option - have to say that's what I prefer still, but I should probably persevere with the new. I do like the attack on keyvelocity sustain though - that works great.


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## Resoded (Nov 30, 2011)

Great video and great composition. What did you use for the metal hits? Thats exactly the sounds I've been looking for. 

Oh, and what did you use for the drums?


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## marcotronic (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks a lot for your new video, Daniel! I´m always enjoying your stuff.

Why did you go back to Ableton Live, by the way? Didn´t you like Cubase or did you originally start that song before you got Cubase?

Thanks
Marco


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## dinerdog (Nov 30, 2011)

First off, let me say WOW :shock: 

Second, I do have a gearhead question, and that's what are you using for a keyboard controller? Are you playing in volume and expression or do you add/draw it in later? tia


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## antoniopandrade (Nov 30, 2011)

CB Pro sounds amazing. The 12-horn patch is monstrous. But what I absolutely love the most is the sound of those staccatos. So slappy and aggressive!

Another thing that really impressed me, and suprisiginly so, was how cool those DAMAGE metal thingies sound. I mean, I've heard metal hits, and then other metal hits. These sound great!


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## germancomponist (Nov 30, 2011)

Yeah, what a great sound! 

And Dan, you did another very cool video!


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## Daniel James (Nov 30, 2011)

Hey Guys thanks for the comments 

Just to answer the few questions.

I always work with a new library in AbletonLive irst because I know what an error in AbletonLive feels like...so if I start to get issues I will know if its with the sample library or the DAW

The Metal hits are coming from Heavyocity's Damage,

My keyboard controller is an M-Audio Oxygen 61

Thanks again for the kind words guys 

Love,

The Five Tonging Wizard


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## RiffWraith (Nov 30, 2011)

Nice vid as always, DJ 

"I am not sure that trombone players can play that fast"

Yeah - me neither. Why not go here:

http://tromboneforum.org/

and find out? If you are like me, you are always up for learning something new. If you don't want to, and you give me permission to take and use that little audio snippet, I will go and find out, and post the results here.

Cheers.


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## Daniel James (Nov 30, 2011)

Haha Riff feel free, I wonder how wrong I got it 

Dan


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## RiffWraith (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel James @ Thu Dec 01 said:


> Haha Riff feel free, I wonder how wrong I got it



Let's go and find out.... :lol:

--------

:shock: 

*An Error Has Occurred! *

You did not fill in the "Your trombones: What do you play/own/hoard?" field. 

:shock:

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I put in Trombone...that worked :lol:


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## sbkp (Nov 30, 2011)

I think the positions for that run would be:

3 4 3 4 6 4 6 1 2 4 2 1

Or on with an F trigger:

3 4 3 4 6 4 6 3 4 6 4 3 (which seems a little less unreasonable)

But I doubt it would be clean in real life in either case. Either that's a positive or negative about samples. I can't decide


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## Andrew Christie (Nov 30, 2011)

'When I was writing I went for this kinda Middle Eastern thing, but I lost that vibe half way through' and 'In my head I'm like a wizard' hahahaha those bits made me laugh

Great vid as always Daniel


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## Dan Mott (Nov 30, 2011)

Cinebrass is very impressive. Great sound. Although, Knowing my self and how I like my samples, It's sounds a little too wet. Just my personal perference. I generally like to start with a dryer sound and apply my own hall and such so I have more control over the sound.

Damage sounds great! I think you layered them with DOW1 or something? Really cool.

Great vid. Thanks.


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## sbkp (Nov 30, 2011)

My favorite line was, "I don't think tubas are meant to do this."

Daniel - thanks so much for the run through. Really useful stuff!


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## Christian Marcussen (Nov 30, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Wed Nov 30 said:


> Cinebrass is very impressive. Great sound. Although, Knowing my self and how I like my samples, It's sounds a little too wet. Just my personal perference. I generally like to start with a dryer sound and apply my own hall and such so I have more control over the sound.
> 
> Damage sounds great! I think you layered them with DOW1 or something? Really cool.
> 
> Great vid. Thanks.



Do you have HB (maybe you mentioned it, I forgot)? How do they compare in terms of wetness and sound? Which would you find yourself using the most, and what if you could have only one?


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## Dan Mott (Dec 1, 2011)

Christian Marcussen @ Thu Dec 01 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Wed Nov 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Cinebrass is very impressive. Great sound. Although, Knowing my self and how I like my samples, It's sounds a little too wet. Just my personal perference. I generally like to start with a dryer sound and apply my own hall and such so I have more control over the sound.
> ...



I don't have HB, but I'd rather a library that was recorded in a big studio, rather than a big hall, flexibility wise. Just like to create my own spaces.


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## mac4d (Dec 1, 2011)

@Dan Jay: CB has close mics too. Do you not like the close mics in CB, or have you not heard them? Seems CB has 4 mic positions + the full mix option. I picked that up from watching the video, though only the full mix was demonstrated. I could be wrong.

---

Great demo Daniel James. I think I'm sold (whenever another sale happens!)


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## Dan Mott (Dec 1, 2011)

mac4d @ Thu Dec 01 said:


> @Dan Jay: CB has close mics too. Do you not like the close mics in CB, or have you not heard them? Seems CB has 4 mic positions + the full mix option. I picked that up from watching the video, though only the full mix was demonstrated. I could be wrong.
> 
> ---
> 
> Great demo Daniel James. I think I'm sold (whenever another sale happens!)



They have mic positions!!! :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: 

I think I just boiled up 

Weird. I pretty much watched the whole video and I didn't see any of that, or maybe I missed it. I'd like to hear these mic positions you speak of Sir!


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## Dan Mott (Dec 1, 2011)

I'm deleting my post. They do have mic positions haha.

I would like to hear all of them in isolation though. Still close mics in a hall is too wet for me from what libraries I have used in the past, such as EWQLSO


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## NYC Composer (Dec 1, 2011)

Nice work, Daniel.

I like the way Cinebrass Pro sounds in general, however,in certain spots it sounds a little too bright for my ears. Do you have any channel EQ or mastering EQ on the brass? Thanks!


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## khollister (Dec 1, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 01 said:


> Nice work, Daniel.
> 
> I like the way Cinebrass Pro sounds in general, however,in certain spots it sounds a little too bright for my ears. Do you have any channel EQ or mastering EQ on the brass? Thanks!



I have CB/CBP. Is it bright at higher mod wheel values (louder sample layers)? - sure, but IMHO, no more so than the instruments should be in a fairly small space recorded at fairly close distance. At lower volume levels (talking sample layers, not actual MIDI volume), the tone is nice and burnished.

If you are looking for the "back of the hall in the Concertgebouw" sound, this certainly ain't it. 

A little UAD Studer tape emulation will take that edge off


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 1, 2011)

Seems like a reasonable trombone part - the key it's in may make for odd slide positions but you can't tell that from listening to it. The only thing that's kind of a stretch is probably the low notes, doing them short, loud, and fast with a big jump from the higher notes before. Definitely doesn't matter with so much else going on in the track.

CB mic positions - I haven't seen examples with pro but there were a few examples of the same passage in each of the positions in the older threads for the original library. Have there been examples like that for HB? I know there were for HS but haven't seen them for the brass.


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## Polarity (Dec 1, 2011)

So Daniel, when Hans Zimmer or Steve Jablonsky will call you to work with them?!?  

You went Mac??
I remembered you used Ableton on a Windows PC...

Cinebrass PRO sounds great, and those 12 Horns are really wonderful for me! :D 

Thanx for the track and video tutorial, as usual.
all the best.


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## ontrackmusic (Dec 1, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Thu Dec 01 said:


> I would like to hear all of them in isolation though. Still close mics in a hall is too wet for me from what libraries I have used in the past, such as EWQLSO



Mike plays a bit of the Horn Ens patch mics individually at around 10:55 on the CB Core overview video: http://cinesamples.com/wp-content/theme ... stnum=2602. It is still pretty wet, similar to EWQLSO I think. Mike mentions in the video that he wouldn't recommend using the close mics alone, but rather in conjunction with the other mic positions.

I've found that using the close+room mics give me a nice compromise; the full mix is indeed pretty wet. But the Sony room is such a huge part of the sound of this library...


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## NYC Composer (Dec 1, 2011)

khollister @ Thu Dec 01 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Nice work, Daniel.
> ...



Im still stuck on two UAD-1 cards, so Studer is out til I upgrade. One of many needs (sigh).

Thanks for your feedback, however, I'd still be interested to hear if Daniel has any Eq across the brass.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 1, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Thu Dec 01 said:


> I'm deleting my post. They do have mic positions haha.
> 
> I would like to hear all of them in isolation though. Still close mics in a hall is too wet for me from what libraries I have used in the past, such as EWQLSO



Yup. I think the rule of thumb on ambient libraries is accept that they are ambient! If you need the flexibility to be dry, simply take them out of consideration. The close mics are always ambient too - their purpose is to add definition in a mix, not to sound dry, and they nearly always sound bad on their own.

If you buy CineSamples / Spitfire stuff, you're locked into their room. I'm in the camp that loves their rooms.

I've been using Core all day. Can't deny that Pro would help me out, if only for the legatos, which I do find a little frustrating in Core, though I soooo love the tone. Getting tempted again... I'll probably have bought it by morning!


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## bwherry (Dec 1, 2011)

Thanks for the great video, Dan! I was going to hold off on Cinebrass Pro for a while (or skip it) but now I don't think I can. So thanks for that. 

Brian


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## Mike Greene (Dec 1, 2011)

Really well done video, Daniel. I love that piece you wrote. 8)


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## Dan Mott (Dec 1, 2011)

Well if the close mics still sound a bit too wet, then I'd go with HB. Just personal tastes. The room sounds nice, but I wouldn't like to be stuck with it.


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## Daniel James (Dec 1, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Thu Dec 01 said:


> Well if the close mics still sound a bit too wet, then I'd go with HB. Just personal tastes. The room sounds nice, but I wouldn't like to be stuck with it.



Haha sorry about not showing the other mic positions. I Always use the stage/main/hall mic that comes with any library. Close mics just dont sound good to me. Like you say its a personal preference thing. I just like things to sound good when I push the key (lazy) xD

Dan


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## Dan Mott (Dec 1, 2011)

Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Thu Dec 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Well if the close mics still sound a bit too wet, then I'd go with HB. Just personal tastes. The room sounds nice, but I wouldn't like to be stuck with it.
> ...




:D

I see what you mean. I suppose for what you do that makes perfect sense and I'd probably do the same. Cheers.


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## mikebarry (Dec 1, 2011)

The full mix is in fact what Dennis Sands uses when mixing. Its a combination of all mics running through the Neve board bounced down to stereo. Dan this should really be suitable for any film music, from arguably the best mixer in town at the best stage in town. It's good enough for Alan Silvestri 

The close mics are more so spot mics, and sound more mono then stereo.

SONY is not a very wet stage - a tail of only.9 to 1.1. Yet it does something that words cant describe during the sound, not after. This is why it is perfect for film music - you can add your own tail.


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## dannthr (Dec 1, 2011)

I prefer the Room Mics, just my personal taste--mostly because I just love that stage's sound so damned much.


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## Christian Marcussen (Dec 1, 2011)

Just occured to me that I have mixed up Dan-Jay and Daniel James. An honest mistake I guess. :oops:


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## Dan Mott (Dec 1, 2011)

Christian Marcussen @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> Just occured to me that I have mixed up Dan-Jay and Daniel James. An honest mistake I guess. :oops:



All good haha!

I was actually curious to why you were asking me in particular.


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## Christian Marcussen (Dec 2, 2011)

But what's up with the conspiracy to confuse me?


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## Daniel James (Dec 2, 2011)

I was Daniel James 4 years before him....just sayin 

Dan


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## vlado hudec (Dec 2, 2011)

Nice video Dan,

I have one request, or prayer or (I am not shure to pick appropriate word in english  

when you play with different patches..could you also turn off your external reverb for a few seconds and play some notes? I think, this would be good for many people, who want to listen the sounds, how they are recorded out of the box.

Because when I listen your reverb, I feel like sitting in Taj Mahal (yes, I know, you like it wet, but turning off the reverb for a few seconds in every patch you play, would be very helpful - at least for me :D

Thanks

V


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## Polarity (Dec 2, 2011)

mikebarry @ Fri 02 Dec said:


> The full mix is in fact what Dennis Sands uses when mixing. Its a combination of all mics running through the Neve board bounced down to stereo. Dan this should really be suitable for any film music, from arguably the best mixer in town at the best stage in town. It's good enough for Alan Silvestri
> 
> 
> SONY is not a very wet stage - a tail of only.9 to 1.1. Yet it does something that words cant describe during the sound, not after. This is why it is perfect for film music - you can add your own tail.



I agree. 
Infact judging from the track by Daniel James I think the sound is perfect for these kind of things.
I would use the Mix mics without any regret!


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## Resoded (Dec 2, 2011)

I'd be interested to know how you mix and master your works, maybe for future videos?


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## Dan Mott (Dec 2, 2011)

Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> I was Daniel James 4 years before him....just sayin
> 
> Dan



I'm the real Daniel James :mrgreen:


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## Ed (Dec 2, 2011)

This and the 1941 demo really has sold me CB pro. 

I love the sound of the 12 horns! :D The solo stuff sounds really good too, the tuba sounds amazing. The legato sounds GREAT now, from your video anyway.

Dan-Jay, I thought you didnt like brass and woodwinds anyway?


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 2, 2011)

Any more feedback on the legatos from those with the library? Especially those who have struggled with Core, does Pro answer your prayers?


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## dedersen (Dec 2, 2011)

There's now little doubt that I'll get this next year. Thanks again to the CineMikes for extending the Core-owner discount price!


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## RiffWraith (Dec 2, 2011)

Got a response at the trombone forum.

The general consensus seems to be that playing that passage is possible, but would require an "extremely competent bass trombonist playing it."

I think all the responses were about a bass trombonist; I never mentioned a BASS T., so...

But man oh man, did I run into a real curmudgeon! Not sure what his problem is, but...


Anyway, the thread is here:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,59457.0.html


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## Resoded (Dec 2, 2011)

RiffWraith @ 2nd December 2011 said:


> Got a response at the trombone forum.
> 
> The general consensus seems to be that playing that passage is possible, but would require an "extremely competent bass trombonist playing it."
> 
> ...



Sabutins post made me laugh. To quote mr Burgundy, 

"That doesn't make sense".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLq2-uZd5LY


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## Daryl (Dec 2, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> Got a response at the trombone forum.
> 
> The general consensus seems to be that playing that passage is possible, but would require an "extremely competent bass trombonist playing it."
> 
> ...


I would imagine that you got the comments about a Bass Trombone, because the passage would be just about impossible on a Tenor trombone. The bottom note on a Tenor is E, and this passage goes down to D, so a TTbn player would have to use that rotary valve thing, and the sound down there would be pretty muddy and unclear.

D


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## jamwerks (Dec 2, 2011)

Most Tenor Trombones these days have an f-attachment that gives them even the lower C.


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## dedersen (Dec 2, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> But man oh man, did I run into a real curmudgeon! Not sure what his problem is, but...



Haha, there is one (or many...) in every forum, isn't there?


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## Daniel James (Dec 2, 2011)

Haha that response was golden 

I personally like: "it's simply about a certain kind of ignorance and self-perpetuating, self-insulating arrogance" .....that kinda sums me up 

Cheers for doing that BTW Jeff! It was all a good read!

Dan


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## NYC Composer (Dec 2, 2011)

Dan-any EQ on the brass? (he asked, again)


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## Daniel James (Dec 2, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> Dan-any EQ on the brass? (he asked, again)



Yeah I pulled some low mid using a light EQ, just removing some buildup after layering it with strings 

Dan


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## NYC Composer (Dec 2, 2011)

Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> Haha that response was golden
> 
> I personally like: "it's simply about a certain kind of ignorance and self-perpetuating, self-insulating arrogance" .....that kinda sums me up
> 
> ...



I like your piece, Dan, so don't get me wrong-but that trombone line heard in the clear is not something I would ever write for a live player. I think that's what that guy was trying to say(as part of a screed about the death of western civilization) in his particularly obnoxious way....the part is not particularly "trombone-istic". That doesn't make it wrong-it simply sounds more like what a sample would do than a player.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 2, 2011)

Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Dan-any EQ on the brass? (he asked, again)
> ...



Thanks-I sorta thought so.


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## Daniel James (Dec 2, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Haha that response was golden
> ...



Haha this wont be a popular opinion BUT I was writing for samples  and I write what sounds good to me, the trombone playing that line with its sharp attack and aggressive tone worked perfect for what I was going for. The fact it can be played live also is an awesome bonus....as to whether or not I should have written a line like that for trombone...Absolutly I should! I'm a composer, thats what I do, because others wouldn't doesnt automatically make it a wrong thing to do  of course as with everything I say, its just my opinion 

Dan


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## NYC Composer (Dec 2, 2011)

Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:
> ...



And of course whatever I say is only _my_ opinion, obviously. If you'll review my statement,you'll see I never said anything whatsoever about "wrong". I said it wasn't a particularly natural way for a trombone to play. Those are two different things, and my statement wasn't judgmental, it was an attempt to explain the point of view of a player. His attitude was, of course, unfortunate....but the content was instructive to a degree if taken that way.

I ran into session players with various attitudes over the years. Some would just do their level best to write what you wrote, some would gently suggest a change that would make a part more natural for their instrument, some would tell you in so many words that you wrote a dumb part! The latter were the guys who never worked for me again  One such fellow was a drummer who told me the part I had written for an 80's New Wave commercial was "not drumistic". I asked him to do his best to play it way I wrote it, which was deliberately kind of odd sounding. It ran for five years. His residuals probably soothed his annoyance. :wink: 

If you're only writing for samples, that's one thing. If you're fortunate enough to be writing for players, the best ones will help you optimize your writing for their instrument. You can ignore them and go your own way or learn from them and integrate their suggestions. In most cases, though not all, I tended to go with the latter.

Again, great demo. Rock on!


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## gsilbers (Dec 2, 2011)

Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:
> ...




i agree with you dan.


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## gsilbers (Dec 2, 2011)

also... 

can u do a walkthrough of DAMAGE or a song mostly featuring DAMAGE... this video was mostly showing cinebrass ... 
and thx for that too.


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## Nostradamus (Dec 2, 2011)

The whole message behind this guy's posting is this:

How dare you to use a sample of such an incredible wonderful instrument like a trombone. You could use a sampled piano (since I'm not a piano player, so I don't care) and go to a real, I mean A REAL trombone player (like me, if you find such a genius) and ask him submissively to play that line. But to use a sampled trombone is so ignorant (since I'm a trombone player) and self-this and self-that and you actually deserve to be sentenced to death immediately and without a court case. Shame on you! It's your and your disrespectful wannabe muscians fault if the western music culture goes down the drain!


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## Daniel James (Dec 2, 2011)

@NYC Composer: Sorry about that mate I did indeed misread 

The trombone player on the forum is more than welcome to think the way he does, I mean thats his world. If I was in the business of recording Live brass for myself I would listen to the people who know more about it than me...however as it stands now I am writing for samples which is all about how something sounds (realism be dammed) if I can get a better sound out of the unrealistic I will go there, regardlessD of how ignorant or self-perpetuating, self-insulating arrogant that may be 

Dan


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## jleckie (Dec 2, 2011)

Christian Marcussen @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> Just occured to me that I have mixed up Dan-Jay and Daniel James. An honest mistake I guess. :oops:



A frightening thought! 

Its easy Daniel James is the guy that does in depth videos, Dan Jay is the guy who is celebrating his 14th b-day soon.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 2, 2011)

Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> @NYC Composer: Sorry about that mate I did indeed misread
> 
> The trombone player on the forum is more than welcome to think the way he does, I mean thats his world. If I was in the business of recording Live brass for myself I would listen to the people who know more about it than me...however as it stands now I am writing for samples which is all about how something sounds (realism be dammed) if I can get a better sound out of the unrealistic I will go there, regardlessD of how ignorant or self-perpetuating, self-insulating arrogant that may be
> 
> Dan



Yep. As I said, that guy's presentation was really obnoxious....all those personal comments (about someone he didn't know!) were laughable. Cheers.


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## Daniel James (Dec 3, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:
> 
> 
> > @NYC Composer: Sorry about that mate I did indeed misread
> ...



Haha tbh his comments are not the worst I have ever recieved after a video. TBH 99% of the ones for this vid have been positive. Makes me want to do more! Once I get this workload done I will be back on it 

Dan


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## Ed (Dec 3, 2011)

I want a Daniel James fast food composer diet vlog. :D


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## Daniel James (Dec 3, 2011)

haha be careful Ed, you may get what you wish for  Was also thinking about starting up a live stream thing again. Wonder how that will go down?

Dan


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## Dan Mott (Dec 3, 2011)

Hello Ed and guys.

No, I don't like woodwinds or brass, but I like Dan's videos and also how samples are progressing. Though.... CB has changed the way I think about brass a little bit


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## gsilbers (Dec 3, 2011)

no in depth DAMAGE videos anyone?


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## Dan Mott (Dec 3, 2011)

Yes! I'd like an in depth DAMAGE video

gslibers - You should look at this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtONyQkI2Iw


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Dec 3, 2011)

Your only 21 Day Jay?


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## Daniel James (Dec 3, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Dec 03 said:


> Yes! I'd like an in depth DAMAGE video
> 
> gslibers - You should look at this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtONyQkI2Iw



Guess there is no need for me to do one now 

Dan


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## Dan Mott (Dec 3, 2011)

Jeffrey - Yeah.. I am?


No Dan! His video demo was no where near in depth, compared to how you do yours :D


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## Dan Mott (Dec 3, 2011)

I saw that - Udo


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## gsilbers (Dec 4, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Dec 03 said:


> Yes! I'd like an in depth DAMAGE video
> 
> gslibers - You should look at this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtONyQkI2Iw



yep, saw it.

thought the guy had the wrong library for while 
:mrgreen:


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## Udo (Dec 4, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Sun Dec 04 said:


> I saw that - Udo


Probably should have left it.


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## Ryan Scully (Dec 4, 2011)

Finally had a chance to sit down and watch the whole video this morning. Great job as always Dan and a very cool and powerful composition. I've had the library since day 1 and still have only had a couple opportunities to really sit down and play through it(LOVE IT THOUGH!). You did a really great job showcasing everything included in this gigantic library!




Ryan :D


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## Ed (Dec 4, 2011)

hehe that Sounds and Gear guy..... 

YO DAWG IM YO BOY WE GOT HEAVYOCITY COMIN UP IN YO CRIB FO'SHIZZEL

Im sure we'd all like to see a video of Damage :D Though I already have it will be interesting. 

I find Damage responds well to the stereo enhancer in Kontalkt and I use that on most of the mutisampled patches.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 4, 2011)

"Yo wassup, it's shhhboy sane Joe. Sounds and gear dot com"


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 4, 2011)

Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:


> @NYC Composer: Sorry about that mate I did indeed misread
> 
> The trombone player on the forum is more than welcome to think the way he does, I mean thats his world. If I was in the business of recording Live brass for myself I would listen to the people who know more about it than me...however as it stands now I am writing for samples which is all about how something sounds (realism be dammed) if I can get a better sound out of the unrealistic I will go there, regardlessD of how ignorant or self-perpetuating, self-insulating arrogant that may be
> 
> Dan



Actually that makes perfect sense to me. A slide trombone cannot play from the Bb a 9th below middle C to the B natural without a gliss type effect because the slide position is at opposite extremes but it would be insane to include that restriction in a sample library in the name of reality.

The only problem happens is when someone who only has written for samples then prints out a part with those notes and wonders why that is happening.


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## George Caplan (Dec 4, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 04 said:


> The only problem happens is when someone who only has written for samples then prints out a part with those notes and wonders why that is happening.



i enjoy when time allows watching this stuff that i know very little about as yet.

what strikes me after years of going to concerts as my main hobby is that a lot of people have chopped in their synthesizers for computers and samples of real instruments. its a totally different animal to an orchestral concert.


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## dannthr (Dec 4, 2011)

What about having the t-bones alternate notes between the players?

A little pointalistic arrangement...


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 4, 2011)

dannthr @ Sun Dec 04 said:


> What about having the t-bones alternate notes between the players?
> 
> A little pointalistic arrangement...



Lots of luck with that! >8o


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## Daniel James (Dec 4, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 04 said:


> Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:
> 
> 
> > @NYC Composer: Sorry about that mate I did indeed misread
> ...



Well as this wasnt written for a live player I went with what I thought sounded best, as always. Besides there are ways I could make a live player play that line the way it is, if I wanted....like recording each note separately, Would take more time, but if its what I wanted I could get it.

"but it would be insane to include that restriction in a sample library in the name of reality."
Lol and as always I take your criticisms of another company's sample library as your opinion as an employee of East West 

Dan


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 4, 2011)

Daniel James @ Sun Dec 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel James @ Fri Dec 02 said:
> ...



Whoa, I criticized NOBODY"s library here. I only made the point that there are limitations with real instruments that there is no point in sample libraries developers including.

Personally, for instance when acoustic guitar libraries include string noise as part of multis, the first thing I do is remove them. In real life yes there are string squeaks but players and engineers have always worked hard to minimize them and I don't care to add them to my compositions to satisfy somebody's idea of "real."


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## JT (Dec 4, 2011)

A valve trombone could probably play that easier than a slide bone... whatever. 

As far as the trombone players comments, they were made in a trombone forum. I assume that they mainly discuss issues that affect them directly. I used to play trumpet. I've been handed music at sessions by someone who's not an experienced orchestrator and ended up re-writing the horn charts on the spot just to make them playable. It's a frustrating situation.

Even though his comments went over the top, he might of had a similar experience and was just blowing off some steam.


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## germancomponist (Dec 4, 2011)

Smile, 

look on the front pages of magazines, the pictures with all these nice looking faces, what are all done in photoshop...... . 

We do not have to arrange music only what is playable in the real world by real musicians... ? o/~ 

So, I am with Dan here. o-[][]-o


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## mikebarry (Dec 4, 2011)

I was speaking with one of the industry's best woodwind players and he said his technique has improved dramatically having to play sampled reproductions. SO Daniel keep going.

Remember that most people considered Beethoven and Tchaikovsky unplayable so you are in good company.


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## P.T. (Dec 4, 2011)

"Personally, for instance when acoustic guitar libraries include string noise as part of multis, the first thing I do is remove them. In real life yes there are string squeaks but players and engineers have always worked hard to minimize them and I don't care to add them to my compositions to satisfy somebody's idea of "real.""
_____________________

An attempt to achieve a more 'real' sound that actually does the opposite.

Sometimes developers get unrealistic 'theories' in their heads.
Like burning noises into the samples.
A guitar makes those squeaks when you change position, and only sometimes.
A squeak every time you play that note just screams samples.

I always remove them also.
A needles waste of my time.

Squeaks as separate noises that can be added at expropriate placed at the composers discretion could be useful.


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## khollister (Dec 4, 2011)

mikebarry @ Sun Dec 04 said:


> I was speaking with one of the industry's best woodwind players and he said his technique has improved dramatically having to play sampled reproductions. SO Daniel keep going.
> 
> Remember that most people considered Beethoven and Tchaikovsky unplayable so you are in good company.



Exactly. The evolution of instrumental technique over the last 300-400 years is due mostly to composers writing stuff that no one thought was playable at the time, not because the players inspired the composers.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 4, 2011)

Are people really suggesting there's some sort of serious artistic merit in writing unrealistic parts for instruments sampled to sound like a specific instrument? Granted, it certainly can be done, and there's no reason a composer should restrict him/herself to writing idiomatic parts, but the idea that doing so is some sort of daring and meritorious groundbreaking compositional decision? To me, it seems more like unfamiliarity with the instrument in question. Again, I'm not putting a negative spin on it-but nor do I think it's necessarily positive...it's simply a sample-based compositional decision.

To reiterate from an earlier post-overall it sounds like nice work, Dan, and the library sounds great.


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## P.T. (Dec 4, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 04 said:


> Are people really suggesting there's some sort of serious artistic merit in writing unrealistic parts for instruments sampled to sound like a specific instrument? Granted, it certainly can be done, and there's no reason a composer should restrict him/herself to writing idiomatic parts, but the idea that doing so is some sort of daring and meritorious groundbreaking compositional decision? To me, it seems more like unfamiliarity with the instrument in question. Again, I'm not putting a negative spin on it-but nor do I think it's necessarily positive...it's simply a sample-based compositional decision.
> 
> To reiterate from an earlier post-overall it sounds like nice work, Dan, and the library sounds great.



It's like doing a drum track for a trap set.
Do I have to restrict myself to a maximum of 4 simultaneous hits or can I forget about that?

I am not trying to fool anyone.
I write for samples.
I do what I want, rather than restrict myself to what a real drummer can do.

Samples allow you to expand.
Unless you are trying to fool people into thinking it is a real drummer.

For those locked into old conventions, think of it as an overdubbed part, or more than one drummer in the studio.

People have been doing things in the studio that can't always be done live for decades.
If you are writing for live players then, obviously things are different.

Why shouldn't people celebrate samples and VSTi's for what they are in themselves instead of as a proxy for the real thing?


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## NYC Composer (Dec 4, 2011)

P.T. @ Sun Dec 04 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Are people really suggesting there's some sort of serious artistic merit in writing unrealistic parts for instruments sampled to sound like a specific instrument? Granted, it certainly can be done, and there's no reason a composer should restrict him/herself to writing idiomatic parts, but the idea that doing so is some sort of daring and meritorious groundbreaking compositional decision? To me, it seems more like unfamiliarity with the instrument in question. Again, I'm not putting a negative spin on it-but nor do I think it's necessarily positive...it's simply a sample-based compositional decision.
> ...



Dan, you did not respond to the substance OR the tenor of what I said. I made it quite clear there's no reason for a sample based composer to restrict himself to idiomatic writing-however, I also said there's no particular need to celebrate it either. It has no more intrinsic merit than it has failings.

So-you didn't set out to do an orchestral sounding piece when you did this demo? The general feel of it would suggest differently. If by " locked into old conventions" you mean trying to produce realistic orchestral simulations, well, people wouldn't be going on about the 'real' sounding-ness of HB, CB, LASS HS etc if they weren't interested in a 'real' sound. We celebrate good writing, sure, but we truly respect the good 'mockup' as well. Part of that is writing idiomatically for samples. The part we're discussing was buried in a mix, and was fine there, but exposed, might not have been.

We can go round and round about this forever, but I suggest you have the last word and we get back to other business. Cheers.


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## Daniel James (Dec 4, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 04 said:


> Dan, you did not respond to the substance OR the tenor of what I said



In fact I didn't respond at all, P.T did. I shall respond though.

I believe no one should be confined to writing with the restrictions of a real instrument IF it sounds good in the end result. We are composers, this should always be one of our main goals.

Did I mean for the demo to sound Orchestral? Absolutely I did. More specifically I wanted the tone that orchestral instruments provide, that does not mean a however I HAVE to write for it exactly the way you would for an orchestra....the realism of the parts was secondary to the end result as always! (the samples just happen to be very realistic also  )

I am not saying your opinion is wrong, I am saying though that my opinion on how you write with samples is a bit different to your own, but just as valid. I never look at samples as the instruments themselves, I see them as a collection of tones...all those tone arranged in the way of an orchestra is proven to sound good, so its a good starting point for me. 

Realism has NEVER been a concern in my writing. Only good sounding music. Not everyone agrees but that is me.

Dan


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## Dan Mott (Dec 4, 2011)

*"Realism has NEVER been a concern in my writing. Only good sounding music. Not everyone agrees but that is me"*

This makes perfect sense to me


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## Udo (Dec 4, 2011)

Unless requirements demand a "straight-jacket" approach for authenticity, VIs and libraries should also be used creatively as "instruments" in their own right.


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## Daniel James (Dec 5, 2011)

Udo @ Sun Dec 04 said:


> Unless requirements demand a "straight-jacket" approach for authenticity, VIs and libraries should also be used creatively as "instruments" in their own right.



Exactly my point, at the end of the day they are just sounds and as composers we craft that sound into something good...like a sculpture with clay

Dan


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## FriFlo (Dec 5, 2011)

Slightly off topic:

Daniel, as I have seen, you have switched back to Ableton Live. Previously, you had gone to Cubase ... Do you think Live gives you all necessary parameters for composing and editing with Midi and Audio?
The reason I ask this, I have a one month trial of Live running right now. I am a long time Logic user and have a little knowledge of Cubase 5. What really intrigues me is the possibility of Max for Live, as I am also familiar with Max MSP programming. However, the live approach is very different than other DAWs. So, I am having a hard time to find some workflows I am used to from logic. What is your opinion on that? Would you say, after some learning you can do anything with live, that is possible in Cubase/Logic?

Thanks,

Fritz.


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## Daryl (Dec 5, 2011)

Daniel James @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> Udo @ Sun Dec 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Unless requirements demand a "straight-jacket" approach for authenticity, VIs and libraries should also be used creatively as "instruments" in their own right.
> ...


Sorry, I just found that hilarious. :lol: 

D


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## Daniel James (Dec 5, 2011)

FriFlo @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> Slightly off topic:
> 
> Daniel, as I have seen, you have switched back to Ableton Live. Previously, you had gone to Cubase ... Do you think Live gives you all necessary parameters for composing and editing with Midi and Audio?
> The reason I ask this, I have a one month trial of Live running right now. I am a long time Logic user and have a little knowledge of Cubase 5. What really intrigues me is the possibility of Max for Live, as I am also familiar with Max MSP programming. However, the live approach is very different than other DAWs. So, I am having a hard time to find some workflows I am used to from logic. What is your opinion on that? Would you say, after some learning you can do anything with live, that is possible in Cubase/Logic?
> ...



Ableton Live's charm lies in its flexibility and with your programming skills you will find it even more so. The way I write music normally revolves around the way I manipulate audio and Live is perfect for that. The main reason I went back to it for this video is because whenever I get a new library I use it in Live first so that if I have errors I can tell the difference between a Live error and a sample error.

Dan


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 5, 2011)

[quote="Daniel James @ Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:56 pm"

Realism has NEVER been a concern in my writing. Only good sounding music. Not everyone agrees but that is me.

Dan[/quote]

I totally agree, worry about making it sound good, not so much about "real", and no, they are not always the same.


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## Daniel James (Dec 5, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> [quote="Daniel James @ Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:56 pm"
> 
> Realism has NEVER been a concern in my writing. Only good sounding music. Not everyone agrees but that is me.
> 
> Dan



I totally agree, worry about making it sound good, not so much about "real", and no, they are not always the same.[/quote]

What the fuck?!? we agree on something? hahaha jks  but yes real doesnt always equal good...nor does it always equal bad. Use what sounds best in a situation.

Dan


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## stonzthro (Dec 5, 2011)

Yeah well, just don't use that thought as an excuse to NOT learn that a piccolo can't play pp in it's upper register :wink: 

That said, thanks for the vid Daniel - I always look forward to your videos!


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## Daniel James (Dec 5, 2011)

stonzthro @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> Yeah well, just don't use that thought as an excuse to NOT learn that a piccolo can't play pp in it's upper register...



It will when I am done with it 

Dan


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## George Caplan (Dec 5, 2011)

hey daniel. did you play with synthezizers before getting samples? fun video. i managed to watch it but had trouble with the accent at times. 8)


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## reddognoyz (Dec 5, 2011)

I like my music to fool people into thinking it was live players sometimes. Sometimes not. But I'm a commercial composer and I want the shows I score to be better when I'm done scoring them by any means possible. That's all my clients want and that's what the audience deserves. 

I like my orchestral music to sound real when the film/show/commercial wants to feel grand and expensive and expansive, like there are eighty people in tuxes and gowns sawing away in Carnegie hall.

Otherwise, whatever works baby!


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 5, 2011)

Daniel James @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> stonzthro @ Mon Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah well, just don't use that thought as an excuse to NOT learn that a piccolo can't play pp in it's upper register...
> ...



...and post of the week goes to Mr Daniel James!


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## Ed (Dec 5, 2011)

reddognoyz @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> I like my orchestral music to sound real when the film/show/commercial wants to feel grand and expensive and expansive, like there are eighty people in tuxes and gowns sawing away in Carnegie hall.


#

I agree theres a time and a place for realism. If you want to write like Williams, you gotta do it properly or its not going to sound "right" which is why i can't :D


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## Nostradamus (Dec 5, 2011)

A couple of month ago Jeff Rona said in an interview that it's not realism that counts. It's more important to create emotions.


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## JT (Dec 5, 2011)

But if realism doesn't count, then why are we so concerned with real legato or having a solo violin start NV morphing into Vib?


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## Udo (Dec 5, 2011)

JT @ Tue Dec 06 said:


> But if realism doesn't count, then why are we so concerned with real legato or having a solo violin start NV morphing into Vib?


If your customer's requirements demand a "straight-jacket" approach for authenticity, you should satisfy those requirement of course.

Nevertheless, you could still demonstrate a non-authentic approach. If it expresses the required mood better or in a more interesting way, they may change their mind. :wink:


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## NYC Composer (Dec 5, 2011)

Thomas_J @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> Who cares what's playable and not. That's not what music is about. Embrace technology and break all the rules you want Daniel, its your music and your decision to make. In the end all that matters is freedom of expression, and samples are giving you more and more freedom as a composer. Of course there will always be people stuck in the conventional approach to orchestral music composition but these people are uninteresting to the truly liberated creative minds. Realism is a meaningless word and a pointless goal to strive for. Expression is everything IMO. Fun piece btw



Power to the People! Right on! Off the Establishment! Kill the Pigs, spill their bloo.....oh, sorry. Lord of the Flies moment :wink: 

(Errr...don't you write for realism when you are mocking up pieces that sound Williams-esque, one of your specialties? As a matter of fact, isn't that why you're celebrated on this forum, the excellence of your writing/production to make things sound orchestral and cinematic? Weren't you a developer of Hollywood Brass, highly touted for its "realism"? Aren't you a brass player? Do you try to make your trumpet sound like a bicycle spoke? These and so many other questions come to mind, but that's probably sufficient for this installment.


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## George Caplan (Dec 5, 2011)

JT @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> But if realism doesn't count, then why are we so concerned with real legato or having a solo violin start NV morphing into Vib?



thats why i asked about synthesizers. if youre doing what is basically to my untrained ears rock music to fairly loud percussive sounds what is the point of manufacturers making more and more realistic tools that allow for samples to sound like the real deal? if youre going to swathe legato string sections in loud drumming sounds and huge brass i dont get it. but i get the idea that samples are just another form of synthesizer that can either sound very realistic or not dependent on the style required.

when you go to a concert you notice that real orchestras are a lot quieter than samples.

I would like to hear daniels piece done with synthesizers too as an experiment.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 5, 2011)

George Caplan @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> JT @ Mon Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > But if realism doesn't count, then why are we so concerned with real legato or having a solo violin start NV morphing into Vib?
> ...



Synthesizers or ROMPlers? The lines have been blurred for a while.


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## Ed (Dec 5, 2011)

JT @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> But if realism doesn't count, then why are we so concerned with real legato or having a solo violin start NV morphing into Vib?



Because it sounds better with that. You can make a more expressive line if you can control vibrato and if it has real legato

But if I have it play slightly below its playable range, but still sounds good, you dont see how thats different? Maybe you hear OMG FAKE but no one else will.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 5, 2011)

I was playing around with the sustain patches and legato patches in HS. I was doing some basic notation to hear how these patches differ from eachother. Legato intervals makes a big difference IMO. It really expressive. Then I played back the same line (adjusting notes) and it just wasn't the same with the sus patch changing intevals which was more acting like a synth. Just an interesting test. Just love the natural interval changes between notes which adds to the expressiveness on the instruments. Doesn't matter if it's realistic.


----------



## JT (Dec 5, 2011)

Ed @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> JT @ Mon Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > But if realism doesn't count, then why are we so concerned with real legato or having a solo violin start NV morphing into Vib?
> ...


Yes, that's my point. It does sound better with that? Why does it sound better? It sounds better because it more closely emulates the sound of a real instrument. That's what our ears are used to hearing, so we perceive that as sounding better. 

We can certainly use VI's in new creative ways to create emotion, tension, etc.... There are times when reality might need to be suspended and using an instrument in an unconventional way might do that. But I think these instances are the exception, not the rule. Anyone saying realism doesn't matter is kidding themselves.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 5, 2011)

JT @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> Ed @ Mon Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > JT @ Mon Dec 05 said:
> ...



Actually, most of the arguments against 'realism' are provably specious. How many threads about how realistic a particular sample set sounds would you like me to dig up and post? 100? 1000? 

My original comment on all of this was quite mild (check it out) but I'll just stick to my guns here:

1. As a community, we generally put a high value on samples that sound true to the acoustic instrument that was sampled and are very happy when they include realistic performance parameters to work with.

2. Of COURSE no composer is limited to ANY inability of the player of the acoustic instrument when using samples of that instrument. That's obvious-the composer can use a violin to sound like a a kazoo if it fits his artistic vision, and no one (except perhaps critics) can say squat about it that matters.

3. There is nothing intrinsically _positive_ about using a sample in an orchestral context that isn't particularly playable or idiomatic. It is neither a positive nor a negative. It is simply a compositional decision. It certainly doesn't deserve the head-shaking hyperbole of comparisons to Tchaikovsky et al. Nor, by the way, is it inherently positive to not know as much about stuff in general as possible-and this from a composer who attended music college for 4 months before dropping out and going on the road for seven years.

4. I think Dan is a fine young writer who makes excellent and helpful videos, and I'm happy to learn from them.

Now, back to Cinebrass....


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## quantum7 (Dec 5, 2011)

I also am a believer that if it sounds good then I don't give a darn if it is technically correct....unless I'm writing for real instruments of course.


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## quantum7 (Dec 5, 2011)

George Caplan @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> fun video. i managed to watch it but had trouble with the accent at times. 8)



Hah, my wife loved his accent and insists on watching Daniels videos with me now. She wants to know when your next video will be out, BTW. :lol:


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## Daniel James (Dec 5, 2011)

quantum7 @ Mon Dec 05 said:


> George Caplan @ Mon Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > fun video. i managed to watch it but had trouble with the accent at times. 8)
> ...



I am hoping very soon, although I currently have a rather large workload to crack through first. After that though I'm golden. I'll ham up the accent a bit for you too xD

Dan


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## Udo (Dec 5, 2011)

Daniel James @ Tue Dec 06 said:


> I am hoping very soon, although I currently have a rather large workload to crack through first. After that though I'm golden. I'll ham up the accent a bit for you too xD
> 
> Dan


Oh, was that just an accent. I was a bit concerned, because I thought it was a speech impediment.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 6, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 06 said:


> 1. As a community, we generally put a high value on samples that sound true to the acoustic instrument that was sampled and are very happy when they include realistic performance parameters to work with.
> 
> 2. Of COURSE no composer is limited to ANY inability of the player of the acoustic instrument when using samples of that instrument. That's obvious-the composer can use a violin to sound like a a kazoo if it fits his artistic vision, and no one (except perhaps critics) can say squat about it that matters.
> 
> ...



All sounds more than fair to me.

I'll probably fail at this, but here goes. I think a kind of realism is usually really important, but there are different kinds of realism, and it's hard to define them. If you have a sampled violin and it sounds like its meant to be a real violin and just doesn't, that can be a big problem for an audience. However, if your realistic violin line went down to a lower F#, that would technically be impossible for a real instrument, but very few people would realise. I think that example would SOUND real, even if it is physically impossible to play on a conventional instrument with conventional tuning.

I think the kind of rules the Daniel is happily breaking here are those kinds of rules (indeed there's a rich history of composers who were frustrated by those very constraints and tried everything they could to break them). I think Dan wants his French Horns to sound like French Horns, but not necessarily be limited by all the real-world constraints that would apply.

It's really hard to pin down the specifics. If you have a 4 trombone patch and play 4 note chords - blimey crikey, Charlie, that's 16 trombones, what a silly musical faux pas! Probably it sounds fine to most people's ears though, it's a detail that will get overlooked. But on the other hand, if you have an auto-arrange true divisi 4 trombone patch, it might add a something that WILL translate to something more affecting. I find this with LASS's auto arranger divisi sometimes. I play a few 3 note chords - sounds ok - then play it with the AA and suddenly it comes more alive, the emotional content begins to be teased out. The added realism of divisi arranging makes a tangible difference.

But you know - on another piece in another way it won't matter. Depends what the intent is. Dan can of course speak for himself with his now famous accent, but the basic mantra of "if it sounds good, do it" is probably actually taking on a certain base line of realism anyway - the man-on-the-street kind that doesn't know that you can't have 12 trombones in a classical orchestra or that a violin can't go below a G or the top range of a piccolo can't play pp, but would still know if a crappy artificial pitch bend was applied to a cello it would sound "wrong".


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## Danny_Owen (Dec 6, 2011)

Great post TJ - very interesting to hear your perspective on this, it's not quite what I would have expected as most of your pieces that I've heard are the HS/HB demos.

On a side note I heard the RPO play 'the might of Rome' from Gladiator within the suite at a film music gala, and that was simply fantastic. The other pieces didn't hold up as well probably for the exact reasons you listed.


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 6, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Dec 06 said:


> I think that example would SOUND real, even if it is physically impossible to play on a conventional instrument with conventional tuning.



That's the key right there, there's a difference between something that sounds unplayable and something that doesn't but actually is. Looking at the actual notes on trombone, it would be a very difficult part to play (and would require bass bone and use of the triggers) but I suspect a top session player could work it up and play it. Worst case, multiple takes edited together, or the parts could be covered by valved instruments (or split over multiple players a beat each). I've recorded myself playing live trumpet where the parts were borderline unplayable and cheated it with editing (in some cases parts I wrote myself and didn't realize the impracticality until the horn came out). I'd be hesitant to write that part with the intention of eventually handing it to a live player but at least in theory it's playable and I don't think it sounds unplayable, at least outside of trombone players and a tiny group of people with amazing ears and knowledge of orchestral instruments.


Daniel, your track sounds excellent but as you went through and soloed up various parts I was struck by how great some parts sounded on their own that were kind of lost in the full track with all the percussion and other stuff going on. I don't mean this as a criticism or telling you how to write, but I'd love to hear more material that's more exposed and sparse. You have the writing chops for it and as these newer libraries come out there's much more that can be done without having to try and mask weaknesses in the samples.


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## reddognoyz (Dec 6, 2011)

funny Daniel has talked in the past about parts that go basically unheard, but would be missed if they weren't there. The third layer behind forground/background parts. that semisubliminal layer. 

I've also posted about that subject as used in percussive parts. It's what makes the kick1 and 3/snare 2 and 4 sound great. 

I agree that Daniel could do sparse exposed stuff great as well. 

Daniel likes it loud and fast and huge! ha ha 

Also:

regarding the unplayable parts Scott Smalley was once poo-pooing the idea of giving the wind players rests to breath saying they can sneak en in in a big ensemble passage, so I'm taking his word on that.


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## Andrew Christie (Dec 6, 2011)

Thomas_J @ Tue Dec 06 said:


> Larry, it may be a case of semantics, but the point is it's not about realism as in what sounds "more real". It's about expression. The more parameters for expression you have, the better you're equipped for a musical result. People like legato intervals, wide dynamic ranges and lots of articulations because it gives greater expressive freedom and musical results. "Realism" within this context is meaningless because it simply means "familiarity". Familiarity of sound. It's a curse in a way as demonstrated by that one guy on the trombone forum, who fails to see the potential of musicality with samples.
> 
> The way things are headed, sampled orchestral music is taking over everywhere. In 20 years from now when all you hear on TV (assuming we still have TVs) is orchestral music written with samples (and people have embraced technology, stopped trying to mimic a real orchestra and are writing music without those limitations in mind) then THAT will be the standard of familiarity. In fact it's already happening to a certain extent. Have you ever heard a recording of an orchestra attempting to play one of Hans Zimmer's suites? It's always a train wreck because Hans writes without regard for instrument limitations, dynamic balance and embraces sound design, synths, tools etc. and make them integral parts of his compositions. Yet, by and large, people perceive his music as "orchestral and cinematic" and definitely expressive. That is to those who haven't fallen too deeply into the black hole of purism, and regard any music outside of their familiarity/comfort zone as inferior.
> It's like old farts ranting about how everything used to be better. Lack of the familiar tends to do certain things to people... just like the trombone player who is living in his own little world of elitist purism, oblivious to the technological advances and the musical and creative potential that follows it.
> ...





Thomas_J @ Tue Dec 06 said:


> And to further illustrate my point, if someone who has worked with orchestras for 30 years hears Daniel's piece, he will surely not think it sounds anyhing like a real orchestra, but if that person truly knows what music is about he will see beyond his familiarity with orchestras and see it as something of equal musical value, and enjoy it regardless.



This just made my day. Right on brother!! :D :D 

o-[][]-o


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## Dan Mott (Dec 6, 2011)

*Thomas_J @ Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:40 pm wrote:*

*"And to further illustrate my point, if someone who has worked with orchestras for 30 years hears Daniel's piece, he will surely not think it sounds anyhing like a real orchestra, but if that person truly knows what music is about he will see beyond his familiarity with orchestras and see it as something of equal musical value, and enjoy it regardless"*

Love that. Thanks.


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## Ed (Dec 6, 2011)

EDIT:

Deleted post. TJ said it better


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## Ed (Dec 6, 2011)

Daniel James @ Tue Dec 06 said:


> I am hoping very soon, although I currently have a rather large workload to crack through first. After that though I'm golden. I'll ham up the accent a bit for you too xD
> 
> Dan



BY JOVE its Daniel James WHAT WHAT! 

or..

EH OP MATE, Its Daniel Jaaaames! Got a right CRAKIN good video n'tut here.!


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## oxo (Dec 7, 2011)

still waiting for "LASS Vs Hollywood Strings Part2" :wink:


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## Daniel James (Dec 7, 2011)

oxo @ Wed Dec 07 said:


> still waiting for "LASS Vs Hollywood Strings Part2" :wink:



Haha yeah still need to do that. I am waiting until I have a slave machine to do the next one...so that I dont get so many nasty youtube comments  In all fairness I have found a nice place for all my libraries now!

Dan


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## quantum7 (Dec 8, 2011)

I waiting for your do do a review of Fanfare now. I'm assuming you'll do it since you seem to purchase every new library that comes out.......lucky! :D


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 9, 2011)

quantum7 @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> I waiting for your do do a review of Fanfare now. I'm assuming you'll do it since you seem to purchase every new library that comes out.......lucky! :D



Actually I keep asking Dan about whether he's interested in such and such a new library and he keeps saying "meh"!

I'm doing another trawl for general comments on Pro, from those who have Core. I like Core very much and I'm glad I have it, but I still have significant issues with it, especially the legatos (also got a glitchy Trombone artics patch right now). It really is stopping me pulling the trigger on Pro. Dan, do you see a big difference between the two with regard to how the legatos perform? Do you get frustrated with Core sometimes or are you not fussed?


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## Daniel James (Dec 9, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> quantum7 @ Fri Dec 09 said:
> 
> 
> > I waiting for your do do a review of Fanfare now. I'm assuming you'll do it since you seem to purchase every new library that comes out.......lucky! :D
> ...



Haha well the thing is I didnt have many issues with the way core was working so I may not be able to tell if its fixed in pro. Although the legato on the 12 horns patch feels perfect 

Dan


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 9, 2011)

Daniel James @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> Haha well the thing is I didnt have many issues with the way core was working so I may not be able to tell if its fixed in pro. Although the legato on the 12 horns patch feels perfect
> 
> Dan



Good to hear, thanks Dan.


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