# Intels revenge



## novaburst (Oct 4, 2021)

Could this be Intels answer to AMD. 









Dutch Amazon begins listing Intel Core i9-12900K at 847 EUR, other Alder Lake CPUs listed as well - VideoCardz.com


Amazon confirms retail packaging design for Alder Lake CPUs Dutch Amazon has started listing 12th Gen Core Intel CPUs. The flagship 16-core CPU named Core i9-12900K is now listed at 847 EUR with 21% VAT. A Core i7-12700K model is now offered for 641 EUR while Core i5-12600K has a price tag of...




videocardz.com


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## rectiii (Oct 4, 2021)

At those prices? Absolutely not.


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## thevisi0nary (Oct 4, 2021)

rectiii said:


> At those prices? Absolutely not.


They will without a doubt be priced to match AMD. 12900k being priced near the 5950x makes complete sense if it matches or beats it in performance.


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## rectiii (Oct 4, 2021)

Hmm I had not seen the AMD price of the 5950x, blimey, things have changed!


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## thevisi0nary (Oct 4, 2021)

rectiii said:


> Hmm I had not seen the AMD price of the 5950x, blimey, things have changed!


Was just actually talking about this with someone but your money gets you much more CPU than it would have in the past. 7700k was the very top of the stack in 2017 and cost $300, now an 11600k costs like $250 and is much faster with two more cores.


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## Pictus (Oct 4, 2021)

The "Empire Strikes Back".


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## novaburst (Oct 5, 2021)

Amazon leaks European and UK prices for Intel Alder Lake-S product stack, including the Core i9-12900K


Intel has not started selling the Alder Lake-S series yet, but Amazon has revealed prices for all SKUs in multiple countries. The listings confirm a previous leak concerning retail packaging, too.




www.notebookcheck.net


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## novaburst (Oct 5, 2021)

There are some UK prices here that were leaked by Amazon they do seem to be matching AMD or just a faction higher,
I think because the public will find benefits from both Intel and AMD, I am still noticing that wattage is a little high still at 125 watts on Intel to AMD 105 watts, while this may not mean anything for one machine users it my make a huge power consumption difference if using two or more machines. 

Also I would have like Intel to be a little more efficient on the watts,


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## Justin L. Franks (Oct 5, 2021)

Competition is good. AMD caught Intel off guard; they were so far ahead of everyone else that things stagnated due to zero competition. That's why we were stuck with quad-core CPU's on the desktop for over a decade. With both Intel and AMD competing well for the mid to high end desktop, and with Apple soon joining the fray, this will drive innovation and lower costs. Before Ryzen, if you had told me that 12-16 core/24-32 thread desktop CPU's would be available for $500-$900 in just a couple of years, I would have thought you were crazy.


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## d.healey (Oct 5, 2021)

novaburst said:


> There are some UK prices here that were leaked by Amazon they do seem to be matching AMD or just a faction higher,
> I think because the public will find benefits from both Intel and AMD, I am still noticing that wattage is a little high still at 125 watts on Intel to AMD 105 watts, while this may not mean anything for one machine users it my make a huge power consumption difference if using two or more machines.
> 
> Also I would have like Intel to be a little more efficient on the watts,


Remember that the tdp is BS but also Intel chips include a GPU which will increase power consumption.


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## KEM (Oct 5, 2021)

Yeah it looks like Intel’s coming back hard with this one, I saw the leaked specs and although I can’t confirm if they’re real or not there were some insane numbers there, I’m just hoping Apple Silicon can really change things


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## easyrider (Oct 5, 2021)

3% uplift with DDR5 10nm and more power draw 12 months later?

Meh!

Will wait for actual real world data…


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## novaburst (Oct 5, 2021)

I think that also software needs to get a handle on things to really get the benefit of these latest CPUs as of now the only people that appear to be getting any good benefits are gamers, i am finding with music to see any good benefits i need to do things manually, 

Not sure if windows 10 knows what to do with multicore also DAWs and host still are behind the times and not really doing what it says on the packaged,


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## thevisi0nary (Oct 5, 2021)

novaburst said:


> I think that also software needs to get a handle on things to really get the benefit of these latest CPUs as of now the only people that appear to be getting any good benefits are gamers, i am finding with music to see any good benefits i need to do things manually,
> 
> Not sure if windows 10 knows what to do with multicore also DAWs and host still are behind the times and not really doing what it says on the packaged,


+1! Seriously, there’s a ton of software that isn’t optimized to take full advantage of hardware that already exists.

Not that it’s the same thing as processing real time audio, but some time ago I was really interested in game console hardware and cpu/gpu architecture from the 2000’s (ps2 and ps3). My takeaways from it were that there’s plenty of situations where tasks can be paralellized to greater performance benefit, but writing software to run on that type of hardware is very time consuming if the hardware developers don’t facilitate ease of use. Also just difficult in general, and in this case it wasn’t a matter of sending tasks to other cores but sending them across different modules in the hardware.

I think we trade a degree of performance for compatibility (not saying that’s always a bad thing). It’s obviously easier for a ton of different developers to write code for one architecture. Apple spent over a decade developing their software ecosystem for ARM before putting them in their flagship computers.


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## mscp (Oct 5, 2021)

Mediocracy..the art of copying the other for market share.

Instead, I want to see a consumer grade CPU that can handle 256GB ram or something that consumers have not yet seen.


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## Nigel Andreola (Oct 5, 2021)

novaburst said:


> I think that also software needs to get a handle on things to really get the benefit of these latest CPUs as of now the only people that appear to be getting any good benefits are gamers, i am finding with music to see any good benefits i need to do things manually,
> 
> Not sure if windows 10 knows what to do with multicore also DAWs and host still are behind the times and not really doing what it says on the packaged,


Cubase pro 11 has good multicore performance. I remember the older versions performed poorly on my i7 4930k. When they added multicore processing, I think that was version 10, it greatly improved performance. Also forcing my CPU to maintain boost clock frequencies eliminated all my stuttering and latency issues I had in large projects with lots of automation. I'm hoping a new faster CPU will handle things even better than my 8 year old CPU!


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## thevisi0nary (Oct 5, 2021)

mscp said:


> Mediocracy..the art of copying the other for market share.
> 
> Instead, I want to see a consumer grade CPU that can handle 256GB ram or something that consumers have not yet seen.


256gb of ram isn't consumer grade lol.


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## chimuelo (Oct 5, 2021)

Hope they learned their lesson about changing sockets and chips on every new CPU.


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## Technostica (Oct 5, 2021)

mscp said:


> Instead, I want to see a consumer grade CPU that can handle 256GB ram or something that consumers have not yet seen.


DDR4 is limited to 32GB modules for desktop format sticks which is the main reason that 128GB is the maximum for mainstream systems. 
Manufacturers don't want to support beyond 4 memory modules for the mainstream. 

But DDR5 will break this limit and will eventually top out at four times the size. 
Not sure what the maximum support will be in the new Intel platform due next month.


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## mscp (Oct 5, 2021)

thevisi0nary said:


> 256gb of ram isn't consumer grade lol.


Not yet...that's why I said it: "something that consumers (not prosumers/professionals) have not yet seen." hehe.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 10, 2021)

thevisi0nary said:


> Was just actually talking about this with someone but your money gets you much more CPU than it would have in the past. 7700k was the very top of the stack in 2017 and cost $300, now an 11600k costs like $250 and is much faster with two more cores.


The 7700k was a consumer chip though

They Intel did away with having seperate lines in favor of a more convoluted system involving boards and cpus dictating feature set. 

In comparison I'm using an i7 5960x 

While the flagship i7 4790k before it was a quad core top of the stack around 330$ -
The lowest for my gen was 320$ for a 6 core 5820k and up to 1000$ for the i7 5960x. There were no i5 or i3 - and to follow up my gen the next top of the stack was 6700k, back to the faster consumer quad cores with less work station features(like ram capacity ect). 

Now the core i3-9 series is a giant blur of 2 different product lines, and even some sales voodoo with their xeon line pitching a workstation class(bringing it sort of full circle)

Similarly, AMD now has Ryzen(consumer) and Threadripper(prosumer/workstation) and that's seperate from their server line(Epyc)

Would be weird to compare the top of the i7 stack with a Threadripper pro for instance. 

Amds price for the 5950x was a combination of it being extremely dominant as well as it being during a chip shortage so the price has been a roller coaster, but for the money it absolutely crushed it's competition.


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## chimuelo (Oct 10, 2021)

I just made spares out of my last 2 i7 4790k 1U’s.
I built a 7700k for my son and it wasn’t noticeably faster than the 4000’s.

Kept waiting for Intel top tier Board makers like ASRock Rack to make a 1U board but the last one was the W480/Xeons which are still not a worthy upgrade to my 4000s.

That was due to Intel’s endless new chips/new boards strategy, then discontinuing models, leaving stock on shelves, which AMD made worse as their boards were still AM4.

I don’t see a huge jump in sales to Intel after years of catch up and miss.
This could be the beginning of Intel taking back market share, but it will need more than one batch.

I do wish them well, as we benefit from their battles.

By the time my 2 recent AMD builds become spares I hope they have faster chips and lower heat.

The 2 AMD’s I have are 5600/5700G and they are 30-35% faster then my 4790k’s, and run cooler.


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## thevisi0nary (Oct 10, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> The 7700k was a consumer chip though
> 
> They Intel did away with having seperate lines in favor of a more convoluted system involving boards and cpus dictating feature set.
> 
> ...


Incorrect, the "I" series is considered consumer through the stack regardless of what it contains, the same as the Ryzen desktop chips. The only difference now is that the top of the stack contains more cores than in the past where getting high core counts required going HEDT/Server. 

Not saying the I series or it's branding is cohesive but it is definitely distinct from HEDT/Server. Xeon still exists and is a separate ecosystem and socket. The 5950x could have words like "workstation" or "server" in its branding but it would still be part of the same family as the 5600x, same for 10900k and 10400. Whether that type of branding is ethical is a different argument lol.

The original point though was only about how much cpu you get for your $ now compared to then, not that i7's or i5's are equivalent across generations.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 10, 2021)

There is a very significant point to be made though, there was a prosumer chipset and it was marketed that way. 






Intel X99 - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





My issue is that to call a 300$ chip top of the line is a mischaracterization when trying to compare to the current and/Intel lineups. 

At the time 7700k was relevant there were 3 clear segments in intel's product stack - now there isn't. 

In reality 300$ gets you a strong CPU, and there are a few more options since both companies are competitive - but that's mostly a product of time due to technology improving. 

7700k vs 11700k is about the same kind of leap as 3770k vs 7700k, both about the same amoint of generations apart. 

Not to sound pessimistic, technology is outpacing the demand sampling has - so it's becoming much more affordable to have a capable machine because sampling is limited by the cost/man hours/impracticality of deep sampling.


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## Nigel Andreola (Oct 10, 2021)

The only real difference I can see between similarly priced Professional and Consumer CPUs are that "Professional" chips support EEC memory and more PCIE lanes for connecting more stuff and using more add in cards. The idea is most consumers will not need those features and only professionals will. This does not mean that a consumer chip, is not the best choice for professional work. The vast majority of i9 and Ryzen9 chips are likely being used for professional media production with entertainment as a side focus. They are the best options for a lot of professional applications. For some applications, a "consumer" chip is faster than a professional chip and the "consumer" chipset may have features that the "professional" chipset lacks. Running duel Epyc or Xeon chips would make a lot of professional tasks run much slower than a single higher frequency Ryzen 9 or Core i9 chip. A consumer Intel chip will almost always perform better in Adobe software than its similarly priced Xeon counterpart. The Core series tends to boost to a higher frequency than the Xeon counterpart and the "K" series supports overclocking.


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## thevisi0nary (Oct 10, 2021)

Nigel Andreola said:


> The only real difference I can see between similarly priced Professional and Consumer CPUs are that "Professional" chips support EEC memory and more PCIE lanes for connecting more stuff and using more add in cards. The idea is most consumers will not need those features and only professionals will. This does not mean that a consumer chip, is not the best choice for professional work. The vast majority of i9 and Ryzen9 chips are likely being used for professional media production with entertainment as a side focus. They are the best options for a lot of professional applications. For some applications, a "consumer" chip is faster than a professional chip and the "consumer" chipset may have features that the "professional" chipset lacks. Running duel Epyc or Xeon chips would make a lot of professional tasks run much slower than a single higher frequency Ryzen 9 or Core i9 chip. A consumer Intel chip will almost always perform better in Adobe software than its similarly priced Xeon counterpart. The Core series tends to boost to a higher frequency than the Xeon counterpart and the "K" series supports overclocking.


+1. It also happens to be that now the top chips in the I series (and Ryzen Desktop especially) have core counts we previously only saw in HEDT/Server.


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## Hendrixon (Oct 13, 2021)

Regarding prices, I think in the week Intel will ship the 12s to stores, then AMD will drop/match prices to close any gaps of price<>performance, not a second before.

As for the BigLittle architecture, it remains to be seen how it will handle heavy DAW multi track usage, because DAWs, for all sorts of latency issues, split multi thread work as core per track.

8 performance cores and 8 "efficient" cores?
Lets say I'm not holding my breath


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## Pictus (Oct 13, 2021)

AMD Zen 3 processors with 3D V-Cache in early 2022, then Zen 4 later that year with PCIe 5.0 and DDR5.


It's been five years that the first Ryzen processors have been released. AMD posted an interview containing some nice details, AMD confirms that the first Zen 3 CPUs with stacked 3D V-Cache will be ...




www.guru3d.com


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## novaburst (Oct 13, 2021)

I think one thing that Intel has going for them are DDR 5 ram this may be very appealing to users


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## Technostica (Oct 13, 2021)

novaburst said:


> I think one thing that Intel has going for them are DDR 5 ram this may be very appealing to users


It's going to be horribly expensive at first and a new RAM standard starts out at fairly low speeds compared to where it ends up.
So early adopters lose out twice over or maybe three times if you include potential teething problems with a new standard.
Best to avoid if you can and even more so if you require a large amount.


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## novaburst (Oct 23, 2021)

You can now download AMD's fix for Windows 11 performance, Microsoft's fix is also available


Windows 11 is off to a rocky start, but Microsoft and its hardware partners have been quick to work on solving the biggest problems with the launch...




www.techspot.com


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