# Looking for some pianist's feedback



## Vidal (May 2, 2016)

Hi,

I can't play the piano but I want to learn at least how to write for it. I composed this little piece for practice and would really appreciate some feedback. Like how's the sound? Is it too midi-like? How are the dynamics? Performance wise is it realistic enough?

Now, don't expect much, it's easy listening stuff just to get started, but please listen.

https://app.box.com/s/pg4fvgfaigpxmars05mnrfkrwv2zfe1u

Thank you.


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## chillbot (May 2, 2016)

For starters you need to take your foot off the sustain pedal....


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## Vidal (May 2, 2016)

chillbot said:


> For starters you need to take your foot off the sustain pedal....


Hi, thanks for your input. I just updated the link to a new version, in which I take my foot off the sustain pedal.

Any other comments are more than welcome.


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## Oouzha (May 2, 2016)

Yeah, piano players lift the sustain pedal just as a new chord is played, and then depress the pedal immediate afterwards, so the notes don't blur together like that. In terms of expression, the left hand is quite relentless and pounding. I'd imagine a sensitive piano player might breathe a little more. A sentimental piece like this kind of asks for rubato, I think, far less stiff, to-the-beat quantization. You can play with this in your DAW with tempo changes, but it can be time consuming to replicate well.


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## Oouzha (May 2, 2016)

It's still too heavy on the sustain pedal. Like, I'd let those flourishes up top linger but I'd lift the pedal when the melody continues, probably.


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## Smikes77 (May 2, 2016)

That arpeggiated left hand... Bass notes a little bit quieter and then the rest of the arpeggio cascading underneath with a mini crescendo from p to mp, or it demands too much attention.


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## Oouzha (May 2, 2016)

Smikes77 said:


> That arpeggiated left hand... Bass notes a little bit quieter and then the rest of the arpeggio cascading underneath with a mini crescendo from p to mp, or it demands too much attention.


^^ Yeah, that's it.


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## Smikes77 (May 2, 2016)

Just a small suggestion on any 8ves you play in the left hand...the higher of the 2 notes should be played slightly quieter too.

Ripples, again, should have a mini crecendo on them.

@29 secs, the lower note would be played quieter than that.

@48 sec, in the right hand, the lower note I'd play a bit quieter than the top note.

@56 secs it sounds like there`s a note somewhere that`s not being caught by the pedal.

I`ll come back to it - for some reason it`s stopped playing. Lovely piece though, well done.


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## Vidal (May 3, 2016)

Oouzha said:


> Yeah, piano players lift the sustain pedal just as a new chord is played, and then depress the pedal immediate afterwards, so the notes don't blur together like that. In terms of expression, the left hand is quite relentless and pounding. I'd imagine a sensitive piano player might breathe a little more. A sentimental piece like this kind of asks for rubato, I think, far less stiff, to-the-beat quantization. You can play with this in your DAW with tempo changes, but it can be time consuming to replicate well.


Hi, thanks for your input. I tried working on the tempo changes, but I'm not that confident on the result. I find it's not easy to humanize a instrument I can't play, even though I listen to a lot of piano music. About the pedal, I changed a few things again but to alter more I would need to revise the whole left hand. 

You say relentless but is it just the expression? What would you say about the writing? 



Smikes77 said:


> That arpeggiated left hand... Bass notes a little bit quieter and then the rest of the arpeggio cascading underneath with a mini crescendo from p to mp, or it demands too much attention.



Done.



Smikes77 said:


> Just a small suggestion on any 8ves you play in the left hand...the higher of the 2 notes should be played slightly quieter too.
> 
> Ripples, again, should have a mini crecendo on them.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your suggestions. The new version is up, please have another listen.


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## Baron Greuner (May 3, 2016)

Where it's going awry, is that a pianist wouldn't play it like that strictly on a tempo basis. The tempo would noticeably vary a lot more, slowing down, speeding up etc. Almost imperceptibly at times, but this partly what makes a live performance. There are other issues, but they are perhaps less important depending on your pov. The tempo here sounds a little bit uniform all the way through.

Nice track.


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## germancomponist (May 3, 2016)

I agree with what the others say, but I also have to say that I like the track. As _Baron Greuner_ said: A nice track!


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## Vidal (May 3, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Where it's going awry, is that a pianist wouldn't play it like that strictly on a tempo basis. The tempo would noticeably vary a lot more, slowing down, speeding up etc. Almost imperceptibly at times, but this partly what makes a live performance. There are other issues, but they are perhaps less important depending on your pov. The tempo here sounds a little bit uniform all the way through.
> 
> Nice track.



Thanks! I actually altered the tempo slightly between 65bpm and 70bpm...it wasn't really noticeable huh...I will work on it more. I'm interested on those other issues too! If you have time please point them out.



germancomponist said:


> I agree with what the others say, but I also have to say that I like the track. As _Baron Greuner_ said: A nice track!



Hey thanks! I'm quite surprised...it's such a simple track I never thought it would be praised.


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## SillyMidOn (May 3, 2016)

Vidal said:


> Thanks! I actually altered the tempo slightly between 65bpm and 70bpm...it wasn't really noticeable huh...I will work on it more. I'm interested on those other issues too! If you have time please point them out.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey thanks! I'm quite surprised...it's such a simple track I never thought it would be praised.


Nice track. My thoughts:

You can tell it's Midi, the pedalling is too long, i.e. the gaps before you refresh the pedal are too long.
The playing is too clean on two levels: the notes are all a very similar velocity, so there is no shape.
Secondly, there is 0 change in speed. This piece is by nature a neo-romatic/classical piece. These really need to ebb and flow. When I used to teach piano, I always used to tell my students the speed needs to undulate as if you are going up and down hills, so as you get to a climax in the music the music often slows down very remarkably for a very short period, just as tough you have cycled to the top of the brow, then as you go downhill it speeds up again. Listen to some recordings of solo piano pieces, and try and tap along, you'll notice how much the speed undulates: here is a good example:



Some of the fancy bits in the right hand in thirds sound very midi, you need to accent certain parts to give them shape, or not have the thirds everywhere. 
The piece is far too long. 
The left hand is as loud as the right hand - that's wrong. This is something beginner pianists (playing live) actually do wrong all the time, as it takes some independent limb coordination to be able to strike the keys with the right hand louder than the left hand. And on the piano where the left hand plays the piano is naturally by the design louder anyway, so you have to compensate even more.

That should suffice for now.


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## Baron Greuner (May 3, 2016)

Undulating! There's a good word.

By drawing a slight tempo graph with a difference of 5 bpm isn't how it works when playing. It could very work with a full blown orchestrated piece more. But tempo changes when playing, in this case the piano, (any instrument really) can be sudden, to almost a dead stop, to getting quicker by a much bigger margin of 5 bpm and then.....suddenly slow down rapidly again. This is being a bit extreme, but is they only way to get this across IMO.

I've sent in numerous piano tracks only to have them sent back again with notes like 'can you actually play the piano?' Or 'stop being a lazy bastard and actually play the damn thing!' Or 'were you lying to us when you said you were a pianist'.
This is nearly always about tempo and farting around with quantisation.


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## SillyMidOn (May 3, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Undulating! There's a good word.
> 
> By drawing a slight tempo graph with a difference of 5 bpm isn't how it works when playing. It could very work with a full blown orchestrated piece more. But tempo changes when playing, in this case the piano, (any instrument really) can be sudden, to almost a dead stop, to getting quicker by a much bigger margin of 5 bpm and then.....suddenly slow down rapidly again. This is being a bit extreme, but is they only way to get this across IMO.



That's exactly it - very sudden, and quite extreme slowing down/speeding up, but to the ear is sounds smooth, but if you drew it onto a tempo map, it would look very extreme. Well put Baron von Richthofen!


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## Smikes77 (May 3, 2016)

Try this one too


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## Smikes77 (May 3, 2016)

Your fifths are still a touch too loud btw, and the chords @58 secs are a bit muddy in balance.

1:19 - is there a pedal mis fire there?

I have to say the biggest thing is the lack of rubato - listen to the 2 amazing piano pieces above and take note of when/where the speed changes, even slightly. This alone will take your piano piece to the next level. Good luck, I enjoyed listening to it again.


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## Baron Greuner (May 3, 2016)

Haha! 

The Red Baron!


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## Vidal (May 3, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> Nice track. My thoughts:
> 
> You can tell it's Midi, the pedalling is too long, i.e. the gaps before you refresh the pedal are too long.
> The playing is too clean on two levels: the notes are all a very similar velocity, so there is no shape.
> Secondly, there is 0 change in speed.



Hi, thanks for your input. Lots of good advice here. 

Will work on the pedalling. Now, I understand I need to work on the flow, but velocity wise if you look at the piano roll it's not similar at all. I really don't know what to do there...



SillyMidOn said:


> Some of the fancy bits in the right hand in thirds sound very midi, you need to accent certain parts to give them shape, or not have the thirds everywhere.



Will give special attention to those little notes.



SillyMidOn said:


> The piece is far too long.



Well there are some variations on the second half. I could just scratch that first half but I feel it's needed...I'll see what I can do about the length.



SillyMidOn said:


> The left hand is as loud as the right hand - that's wrong. This is something beginner pianists (playing live) actually do wrong all the time, as it takes some independent limb coordination to be able to strike the keys with the right hand louder than the left hand. And on the piano where the left hand plays the piano is naturally by the design louder anyway, so you have to compensate even more.
> 
> That should suffice for now.



I see. I didn't know about that. Thanks a lot, I have a lot to work on.


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## Vidal (May 3, 2016)

Smikes77 said:


> I have to say the biggest thing is the lack of rubato - listen to the 2 amazing piano pieces above and take note of when/where the speed changes, even slightly. This alone will take your piano piece to the next level. Good luck, I enjoyed listening to it again.



Will do. Thanks again.



Smikes77 said:


> 1:19 - is there a pedal mis fire there?



There's are pedal misfires all over the place...


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## SillyMidOn (May 3, 2016)

One more thing, when you play chords or even just two notes together, on the midi, they should not line up perfectly (well just occasionally, maybe), if you listen to the good Chopin example above, there is a really marked separation of the notes that are playing at the same time (on the same beat) - this could be regarded as sloppiness, but it's not, it's deliberate. Getting a realistic piano performance out of Midi is tough, though.


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## Baron Greuner (May 3, 2016)

I would say it's almost impossible.


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## Vidal (May 3, 2016)

Especially if you are not a pianist....


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## Smikes77 (May 3, 2016)

Vidal said:


> Especially if you are not a pianist....



You`re doing well though. Every single bit of advice above is spot on, nail half of it and you`ll be far closer. That rubato is going to be the toughest part (and the most valuable).


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## Vidal (May 3, 2016)

Smikes77 said:


> You`re doing well though. Every single bit of advice above is spot on, nail half of it and you`ll be far closer. That rubato is going to be the toughest part (and the most valuable).



I hear you.


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## Baron Greuner (May 3, 2016)

Vidal said:


> Especially if you are not a pianist....



Ive been playing some form of keyboard for quite a while and they will tell you over and over again that sample pianos are anywhere between crap and fantastic. Don't believe a word of any of it.
_None_ of them are any good when compared to a real piano. They all sound basically like shit. I know because I have to use them all the time.
The touch and feel and response you get from a real piano is just another ball game. Learning to play keyboards on a Midi keyboard should be against the law. There should be legislation against it.

Then when you combine a sampled piano played through a midi keyboard. Hahahahah!
Double Whammy!


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## Vidal (May 3, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Ive been playing some form of keyboard for quite a while and they will tell you over and over again that sample pianos are anywhere between crap and fantastic. Don't believe a word of any of it.
> _None_ of them are any good when compared to a real piano. They all sound basically like shit. I know because I have to use them all the time.
> The touch and feel and response you get from a real piano is just another ball game. Learning to play keyboards on a Midi keyboard should be against the law. There should be legislation against it.
> 
> ...



I can only imagine...for now a piano is nothing but a dream to me. A very expensive one.

When I wrote this one I was planning on making an album of piano pieces to pitch to libraries. Think it would be worthy to actually record this before pitching? Like, pay a real pianist to play a real piano? Or should I just pitch my best mockup? Obviously I'll still work a lot on the mockup, but I can't see myself getting very close to sounding realistic.


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## Baron Greuner (May 3, 2016)

You could certainly pitch an album of piano pieces to a music library. It's always a good idea to do a genre (piano music in this case), and some of them might take it up.

Getting a real pianist to record an album/track is a good idea, especially if you can't play, but based on stats, that could wind up expensive in the short term, unless you get lucky with one or two tracks quickly, which of course is possible.
I have a few piano tracks that were done on sampled pianos on a midi keyboard but I should have recorded them on a real piano in a studio.


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## Oouzha (May 5, 2016)

Vidal said:


> "You say relentless but is it just the expression? What would you say about the writing?"
> 
> ***
> 
> ...


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## Oouzha (May 5, 2016)

oops, I screwed up the quote script. Sorry!


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## Vidal (May 5, 2016)

Oouzha said:


> oops, I screwed up the quote script. Sorry!


Thanks again for the tips. I've just uploaded a new version. I think I did a few things right this time so I'd love to know what you think! https://app.box.com/s/pg4fvgfaigpxmars05mnrfkrwv2zfe1u


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## Vidal (May 5, 2016)

So I've uploaded a new version with lots of undulations! Please have a listen and tell me what you think.

Thanks.


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## col (May 6, 2016)

Had a listen. 
Sounds really nice.
A real piano is great and all that ( If in tune, good tone etc etc ) - but for those of us that don't have space or budget for an actual one the sampled ones available can be inspirational while you develop your piano compositional chops.

Which one do you use ?
Cheers
Col


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## Vidal (May 6, 2016)

col said:


> Had a listen.
> Sounds really nice.
> A real piano is great and all that ( If in tune, good tone etc etc ) - but for those of us that don't have space or budget for an actual one the sampled ones available can be inspirational while you develop your piano compositional chops.
> 
> ...



Hi, thanks for your comments.

For this piece I used the Pearl Concert Grand from Impact Soundworks. Other people can probably make it sound better though.


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## Alatar (May 6, 2016)

I just listened to the new version.
It sound nice 
But as far as a realistic piano rendition goes: The pedal ist still down for too long and the dynamic is too flat.


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## Vidal (May 6, 2016)

Alatar said:


> I just listened to the new version.
> It sound nice
> But as far as a realistic piano rendition goes: The pedal ist still down for too long and the dynamic is too flat.



Hi, thank you for comments.

I hear you. I'll revise it again at a later time. I do hope I got the rubato right this time though.


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## Alatar (May 7, 2016)

Vidal said:


> Hi, thank you for comments.
> 
> I hear you. I'll revise it again at a later time. I do hope I got the rubato right this time though.



Yes, the timing is good. Sounded fine to me.


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## Smikes77 (May 10, 2016)

Here`s an example of the arpeggio dynamics for you. Slightly louder than yours but you`ll get the idea. Plus some more rubato ideas for you.


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## Vidal (May 14, 2016)

Smikes77 said:


> Here`s an example of the arpeggio dynamics for you. Slightly louder than yours but you`ll get the idea. Plus some more rubato ideas for you.



Wow, now I see why my piece sounds flat. I now understand I was only seeing the dynamics of the whole piece, but piano solo should be like, ever-changing dynamics for each and every measure. So much to work on...

This is amazing stuff, makes me want to learn how to play the beast.

By the way, thanks for sticking around. Really appreciate all the advice.


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## Smikes77 (May 14, 2016)

Vidal said:


> Wow, now I see why my piece sounds flat. I now understand I was only seeing the dynamics of the whole piece, but piano solo should be like, ever-changing dynamics for each and every measure. So much to work on...
> 
> This is amazing stuff, makes me want to learn how to play the beast.
> 
> By the way, thanks for sticking around. Really appreciate all the advice.




Glad we can help. Don't think of changing things in measures, it'll sound like dynamics by numbers, think of it in phrases. I admire your tenacity, keep at it. We'll all help you where we can I'm sure.


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