# Does Melody Even Matter??



## nickmurraymusic (Feb 21, 2019)

Hey Guys, 
I wanted to open up this discussion on melody. Does it even matter? 
Check out my thoughts on it here and would love to hear what you think!


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## studiostuff (Feb 21, 2019)

Does anything even matter?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Feb 21, 2019)

nickmurraymusic said:


> Hey Guys,
> I wanted to open up this discussion on melody. Does it even matter?
> Check out my thoughts on it here and would love to hear what you think!




Hi there, 

You like your spiccato..I don´t know..what to say to that video. But maybe rename it: How to produce an epic mediocre music track with samples. I most of the time disagree with such weak assessment you present here which is very superficial and your example isn´t even showing me any little point why melody doesn´t matter. In fact it just shows me the exact opposite. I am sorry, really..you know I could have written: Oh thank you for your video, yeah your music track definitely proves your thesis, but its not for me. Sorry man, I simply can´t because I sit here and see a guy hammering some random lines in his daw without any purpose and touching anything which would tell the audience about why to reject melodic cohesive context. _Man..and there are so many great examples from repertoire which you could have featured worth a presentation, instead your example proves why we have such bad written and ineffective music out there. Its just my opinion for sure, but you asked about feedback so I give here my assessment.

And don´t get me wrong: Its nothing against you personally of course. _


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 21, 2019)

Alexander doesn't screw around 

But I agree. The role of the melody in music, and whether you need it or not, is a complex discussion. In a sense, melody is everything - but Slayer didn't need melody. 

However, the only thing that the example in this video proves is that you can full well write music without melody and have it sound like your average fare epic media fart. Not sure that was in dispute in the first place. The message seems to be: no, you don't have to think about melodies or anything. Just write some bullshit like this, somebody's gonna eat it up anyway! Not sure that was intended. So yeah, it's kind of counterproductive and seems to encourage people to just don't give a damn and confidently produce bad music - melodic or not.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Feb 21, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Alexander doesn't screw around
> 
> But I agree. The role of the melody in music, and whether you need it or not, is a complex discussion. In a sense, melody is everything - but Slayer didn't need melody.
> 
> However, the only thing that the example in this video proves is that you can full well write music without melody and have it sound like your average fare epic media fart. Not sure that was in dispute in the first place. The message seems to be: no, you don't have to think about melodies or anything. Just write some bullshit like this, somebody's gonna eat it up anyway! Not sure that was intended. So yeah, it's kind of counterproductive and seems to encourage people to just don't give a damn and confidently produce bad music - melodic or not.



And Slayer has done great songs, definitely I enjoy them. I wished he would approached that subject very different.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Feb 22, 2019)

I don't have 31min to see if you're just being provocative, but I really hope you are


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## gregh (Feb 22, 2019)

melody matters when you want a melodic piece - otherwise not. In a more global sense, melody has not been a requirement of interesting music for close on a hundred years - just one of the tools in the toolbox


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 22, 2019)

Melody isn't necessary in some cases to be fair - mainly in media applications - but try being a composer of orchestral music and not have it, at all. Most orchestral music will have a sense of line and momentum and whilst rhythm can do this, it's pretty hard to not come up with even a riff to sustain interest in extended writing generally speaking. That riff might be harmonic in nature, but is still something to hang one's hat on. Don't forget inner part writing, counterpoint, foreground/background writing etc, all needing a sense of line and musicality that a good melodic sense can impart. So maybe a cue or two can be all hands down to the keys to play footballs (semibreves), but as composers, we need more than that.

Nothing provocative at all here, if you agree with the thread title, you are not a good orchestral or instrumental composer imv, and if you want to be, you need to go back to school.


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## asherpope (Feb 22, 2019)

Yes. Except when it doesn't


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## gregh (Feb 22, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> Melody isn't necessary in some cases to be fair - mainly in media applications - but try being a composer of orchestral music and not have it, at all. Most orchestral music will have a sense of line and momentum and whilst rhythm can do this, it's pretty hard to not come up with even a riff to sustain interest in extended writing generally speaking. That riff might be harmonic in nature, but is still something to hang one's hat on. Don't forget inner part writing, counterpoint, foreground/background writing etc, all needing a sense of line and musicality that a good melodic sense can impart. So maybe a cue or two can be all hands down to the keys to play footballs (semibreves), but as composers, we need more than that.
> 
> Nothing provocative at all here, if you agree with the thread title, you are not a good orchestral or instrumental composer imv, and if you want to be, you need to go back to school.



that's sepcial case of orchestral you raise though - there has been a stack of orchestral music for decades where meldoy is not central. Sure in the commercial world of film or whatever it is important, and also in some aspects of the classical concert scene - but by no means is it a universal - it's justone of the aspects of music to be used, or not

I'm not hostile to melody - I love melody


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## CGR (Feb 22, 2019)

This thread reminds me of the story of the BBC2 TV series called 'The Old Grey Whistle Test' - the title of which was derived from the fact that if the Old-Grey-Coated-Cleaners at the BBC were whistling a melody they heard on a BBC2 music programme following a recent broadcast, it was almost certain to be a hit.


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## KallumS (Feb 22, 2019)

Nothing really matters
Anyone can see
Nothing really matters 
Nothing really matters to meeeeeee


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## DivingInSpace (Feb 22, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> But I agree. The role of the melody in music, and whether you need it or not, is a complex discussion. In a sense, melody is everything - but Slayer didn't need melody.



If we are talking about the thrash metal band Slayer, most, if not all, of their "hit songs" mostly became popular because of iconic melodies, the melodies being in the riff. Raining Blood has a pretty strong and iconic melody, and same goes for South of Heaven.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Feb 22, 2019)

I have to admit, after rewatching that video, I can only assume it has to serve a comedic purpose. At least I hope so.


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## muk (Feb 22, 2019)

That c-d-f-e is a _very_ unfortunate choice of an example. First of all, it is a motif, not a melody. The result you get from using that motif is simplistic. It may be polished production-wise, but there is no musical content to speak of.

And that's where the second point comes in why it is such a bad choice of an example. Because somebody has written some of the greatest music of all time with that exact same motif - c-d-f-e. It's not a fair comparison by any means - everybody's music can't do anything but pale in comparison. Hence, really poor choice of a motif.

Compare this:



to this:



The rest of the video doesn't answer the question in the title at all. In fact, it doesn't even start to consider it in my opinion.


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## Illico (Feb 22, 2019)

muk said:


> ..
> Compare this:
> ..
> with this:.


Depending to your audience... if it's VI-Control, you probably keep Mozart one. If it's Teens the first one is good. If you want to stuck a melody on mind, repeat it, repeat it, repeat it, repeat it....in different ways, it's much more cool.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 22, 2019)

DivingInSpace said:


> If we are talking about the thrash metal band Slayer, most, if not all, of their "hit songs" mostly became popular because of iconic melodies, the melodies being in the riff. Raining Blood has a pretty strong and iconic melody, and same goes for South of Heaven.



If you define any interval change as essentially melody, yes.


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 22, 2019)

gregh said:


> that's sepcial case of orchestral you raise though - there has been a stack of orchestral music for decades where meldoy is not central. Sure in the commercial world of film or whatever it is important, and also in some aspects of the classical concert scene - but by no means is it a universal - it's justone of the aspects of music to be used, or not
> 
> I'm not hostile to melody - I love melody



True enough Greg. But even in works where melody isn't part of the expression or featured, a sense of line (which one could reasonably consider a form of melody), or purpose and impetus in the individual parts (orchestral that is) is still needed if only from a practical viewpoint. This purpose could also be reasonably said to be melodic in a way. I think we should all develop a sense of line in our musical thinking and that comes about by thinking melodically too even if the line is an inner part.
Still, all said we are in agreement and I was as you say, referring to a few specific genres of music.


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## Ledwick (Feb 22, 2019)

The track still has harmonic movement... 

To summarize the video, you're basically playing an AC DC style chord progression on the guitar and saying "did I write a song?" Well yes, technically...

Rather than the click bait title, just be honest and say what your implying, "What's the least amount of work required to make something people like". The answer is none, nothing requires any work because someone, somewhere will like it. It's actually a positive message when you think about it. 

I'm looking forward to the next video... "Do notes even matter?" 

Keep up the good work!


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## DS_Joost (Feb 22, 2019)

Depends on what you are trying to create. I think melody matters absolutely, and can truly help create a sense of progression in a story where it sometimes is sorely needed.

However, I think that this video touches upon another concept that honestly, I do not understand at all, and I see it pop up all the time:

The ability of some composers to write a cue completely in a vacuum.

So, how does that relate to your question?

The thing I see in many modern composers, and for me the reason why many cues sound so generic and lifeless, is because they are devoid of context. I cannot for the life of me understand how someone can sit down behind their computer and say 'well today I am going to write something sad and epic'.

Why I don't understand it, is that I cannot just force myself to write something like that. It needs more. It needs a reason to exist. Whether that is an emotion, or a grander idea, there needs to be context for a cue, for me at least, to exist. What am I trying to tell people, what is the story? Without a story, it's just a bunch of noise. And there is a lot of noise out there.

You play a simple string of notes and ask yourself; is this good?

Without context, I wouldn't know. Because I don't know what it's trying to say to me.

If I want to tell a story, I need a melody. A strong one, one that can be bend, twisted, manipulated. I need to be able to play with it's accompanying harmony, need to be able to transpose, modulate and turn it around. Because doing so is actually telling the story. In the simplest terms: for me, in order to tell a story, I need to be able to switch a melody from triumphant to sad, to happy, to mysterious at the drop of a hat. But without context whatsoever, I am creating a melody in a vacuum. It doesn't tell me anything. It's nothing more than a bunch of good sounding notes stringed together. Sure it's loud. And I feel... well... something. But that's it.

That is why melody matters. Because for me, it tells a story that I want to tell through the way I can manipulate it.


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## Adam Takacs (Feb 22, 2019)

In my opinion it is very sad when a composer gets into a situation where the melody doesn't matter.


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## Adam Takacs (Feb 22, 2019)

KallumS said:


> Nothing really matters
> Anyone can see
> Nothing really matters
> Nothing really matters to meeeeeee



Oh, what a beautiful melody.


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## DivingInSpace (Feb 22, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> If you define any interval change as essentially melody, yes.


I don't, but the combination of rhythm, interval changes and repeated motives with small changes definitely makes those two melodies, i really don't see how they are not


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## gamma-ut (Feb 22, 2019)

DivingInSpace said:


> I don't, but the combination of rhythm, interval changes and repeated motives with small changes definitely makes those two melodies, i really don't see how they are not



But that's more a larger-scale structure or assemblage of motives than a typical melody. One might call it a hypermelody - a term for which I apologise for making up (but have probably inadvertently ripped from David Temperley or someone like that).


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## Oliver (Feb 22, 2019)

i think meldody is almost everything.
If you cant touch the emotions with your melody or motiv, then it cant be good.
of course cool sounddesign a la Zimmer can be nice, but in the end people will always remember music by John Williams, because his melodies touched your heart.


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## Adam Takacs (Feb 22, 2019)

Oliver said:


> i think meldody is almost everything.
> If you cant touch the emotions with your melody or motiv, then it cant be good.
> of course cool sounddesign a la Zimmer can be nice, but in the end people will always remember music by John Williams, because his melodies touched your heart.



I totally agree with you.


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## WindcryMusic (Feb 22, 2019)

The one thing I feel fairly certain of, after watching the first part of this video, is that Nick is endeavoring to position himself as the anti-Verta.

Personally, I think I'm with Mike on this question.


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## rottoy (Feb 22, 2019)

WindcryMusic said:


> is that Nick is endeavoring to position himself as the anti-Verta.


The Intro-Verta vs The Extro-Verta.


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## InLight-Tone (Feb 22, 2019)

He's getting his video views, mission accomplished!


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## Paul Grymaud (Feb 22, 2019)

*Melody = spinal column
*
The arrangements/orchestration is:
Structure (Intro, development, etc.) = skeleton, all the bones
Instrumentation = all the organs 
Rythm = all the muscles
Riffs, gimmicks = repiratory and blood system
Nuances (ppp to FFF) = all the nerves

The mixdown and mastering = The outfit (clothes)

*No good music without even a simple melody*


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## Oliver (Feb 22, 2019)

+1 to that!


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 22, 2019)

The Cinderella trailer music is actually very effective for what is happening visually.

I think what is happening here is that the pop/rock idiom has come into film music and this (common) device of a repeating ostinato with underlying chord changes is something a lot of people (hint: the audience) are familiar with. Edge's guitar parts (from U2) are very similar and evoke a similar emotional response. Or something like Coldplay's Clocks.

I still think melody matters.


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## jbuhler (Feb 22, 2019)

So many people wrong on the internet, so little time...

But start here: melody and line are not the same thing. Melody is only one kind of line, and not the most important for many kinds of composition including traditional symphonic, which is based around the ensemble articulation and development of theme (and theme here need not be, indeed in its most characteristic form is not, synonymous with melody). So even if I might be convinced that the definition of line is fundamental to an act of composition, that does not mean that line need to take the form of a melody. And the line can be continuous, broken, convoluted, elliptical, broad, thin, etc. depending on the needs of expression. The line can also be formed in parameters other than pitch, such as rhythm or timbre.


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## WindcryMusic (Feb 22, 2019)

Paul Grymaud said:


> *Melody = spinal column
> *
> The arrangements/orchestration is:
> Structure (Intro, development, etc.) = skeleton, all the bones
> ...



I would amend this to say that the outfit/clothing also includes vertical development ... which seems to be mostly what Nick is championing in his video as a substitute for good melodies (and which Mr. Verta rails against regularly).


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## dzilizzi (Feb 22, 2019)

Well, melody is copyrightable. Chord progressions are not. But scoring to film will be different because sound effects are not really melody or chords, so the picture itself will be kind of the melody?


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## jbuhler (Feb 22, 2019)

WindcryMusic said:


> I would amend this to say that the outfit/clothing also includes vertical development ... which seems to be mostly what Nick is championing in his video as a substitute for good melodies (and which Mr. Verta rails against regularly).


And Verta would be wrong when he simply rails against vertical development (which to be fair he doesn't usually do). He points out its limitations and worries that it is displacing more inventive solutions to basic musical problems, and when he does that he is on solid ground. But vertical development is not by any means a recent invention—look at any passacaglia or the opening of most Bruckner symphonies, which often start creatio ex nihilo, for which the technique of vertical development is well suited. Many passages of intensification (usually transitional or developmental) in the symphonic and operatic literature are also constructed in similar fashion.


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## WindcryMusic (Feb 22, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> And Verta would be wrong when he simply rails against vertical development (which to be fair he doesn't usually do). He points out its limitations and worries that it is displacing more inventive solutions to basic musical problems, and when he does that he is on solid ground. But vertical development is not by any means a recent invention—look at any passacaglia or the opening of most Bruckner symphonies, which often start creatio ex nihilo, for which the technique of vertical development is well suited. Many passages of intensification (usually transitional or developmental) in the symphonic and operatic literature are also constructed in similar fashion.



Yes, I agree. Right after making my last post, I thought about amending it to clarify that I meant "vertical development as a substitute for musical (melodic/harmonic/rhythmic) development", which is indeed what I believe Verta is talking about when he vents about most present-day movie music.

But then other people (the real world variety) started clamoring for my attention and I had to let it stand as written.


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 22, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> So many people wrong on the internet, so little time...
> 
> But start here: melody and line are not the same thing. Melody is only one kind of line, and not the most important for many kinds of composition including traditional symphonic, which is based around the ensemble articulation and development of theme (and theme here need not be, indeed in its most characteristic form is not, synonymous with melody). So even if I might be convinced that the definition of line is fundamental to an act of composition, that does not mean that line need to take the form of a melody. And the line can be continuous, broken, convoluted, elliptical, broad, thin, etc. depending on the needs of expression. The line can also be formed in parameters other than pitch, such as rhythm or timbre.



I think you are missing the point that this is not really classical or symphonic music. It is rock music rendered with symphonic instruments. I'm not sure you can compare the two.

With that in mind, OP is right that, in a rock chord arrangement, melody isn't so important. It's the riff that matters. In his case, the riff was C-D-F-E. Same with a lot of film / trailer music these days.


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## jbuhler (Feb 22, 2019)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I think you are missing the point that this is not really classical or symphonic music. It is rock music rendered with symphonic instruments. I'm not sure you can compare the two.
> 
> With that in mind, OP is right that, in a rock chord arrangement, melody isn't so important. It's the riff that matters. In his case, the riff was C-D-F-E. Same with a lot of film / trailer music these days.


When Verta rails on vertical development, which he will occasionally do, he does not restrict the criticism to that mode. Watch any of his unleashed videos. He is usually more careful and will recognize a utility to vertical development even as he rightly points out its very real limitations, but the "railing" does slip through.


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## DerGeist (Feb 22, 2019)

My (unhelpful) opinion is that melody matters when it matters and doesn't matter when it doesn't matter.

I love the slogan for international drone day: "For too long the drone has been overshadowed by the tyrants of melody and rhythm. We call upon all drones to come together as one massive drone."


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## muk (Feb 22, 2019)

Just a heads up, if people who are starting out in the production music business are browsing the OP website: don't submit any music to him. The deal he offers is almost offensively bad. Paying to submit is a very bad idea. You can submit for free to hundreds of libraries that can get you placements. Among them all the top tier libraries. Just do a bit of research.

But most importantly: never ever give away any part of the writer's share to anybody who has not collaborated on a track. If Nick didn't write half of the track, don't give him 50% of the writer's share. That's a truly horrible deal for you. I'd call this offer impudent. In my opinion he is trying to take advantage of people who are inexperienced and don't know better. So stay well clear of this 'deal'. You can do a lot better than that, even if you have no experience at all and are just starting out.

And these severe words of warning are all the attention his youtube channel and website should get in my opinion.


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 22, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> So many people wrong on the internet, so little time...
> 
> But start here: melody and line are not the same thing. Melody is only one kind of line, and not the most important for many kinds of composition including traditional symphonic, which is based around the ensemble articulation and development of theme (and theme here need not be, indeed in its most characteristic form is not, synonymous with melody). So even if I might be convinced that the definition of line is fundamental to an act of composition, that does not mean that line need to take the form of a melody. And the line can be continuous, broken, convoluted, elliptical, broad, thin, etc. depending on the needs of expression. The line can also be formed in parameters other than pitch, such as rhythm or timbre.



Hey J,
I didn't say they were the same thing, but they _are_ related. A sense of line can be derived from a sense of melody. We are in agreement apart from that mis-reading. 
It seems a little harsh to say people are wrong on the internet though especially when some of us actually do know what we are talking about.


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## jbuhler (Feb 22, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> Hey J,
> I didn't say they were the same thing, but they _are_ related. A sense of line can be derived from a sense of melody. We are in agreement apart from that mis-reading.
> It seems a little harsh to say people are wrong on the internet though especially when some of us actually do know what we are talking about.


I wasn’t responding to anyone in particular, just the general drift of the conversation, which I thought was essentualizing a particular narrow conception of line as melody, so sorry if I caused offense. 

And the opening line was meant humorously, more a self-mocking comment about the inadvisability of weighing in on this topic, but this being the internet it’s sometimes hard to convey that properly.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 22, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> I don't have 31min to see if you're just being provocative, but I really hope you are



31 minutes? No way man!

Please tell me there are at least some piano playing kitten clips in there somewhere. 

Otherwise, I may have to resort to watching 31 minute piano playing kitten videos.

No offense to the OP of course.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Feb 22, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> 31 minutes? No way man!
> 
> Please tell me there are at least some piano playing kitten clips in there somewhere.
> 
> ...



"10 smart tricks to avoid using melody in your music".


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## Land of Missing Parts (Feb 22, 2019)

Does melody even matter to clients and are we still a toxic community of composers?
The answers _may surprise you_...

The latest post feed feels like tabloids at the grocery checkout.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Feb 22, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Does melody even matter to clients and are we still a toxic community of composers?
> The answers _may surprise you_...
> 
> The latest post feed feels like tabloids at the grocery checkout.



Was thinking the exact same thing, ahah. For sure, those last topics smell a bit like anxiety and depression.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Feb 22, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> Was thinking the exact same thing, ahah. For sure, those last topics smell a bit like anxiety and depression.


Seems there's a fever going around.


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 22, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> I wasn’t responding to anyone in particular, just the general drift of the conversation, which I thought was essentualizing a particular narrow conception of line as melody, so sorry if I caused offense.
> 
> And the opening line was meant humorously, more a self-mocking comment about the inadvisability of weighing in on this topic, but this being the internet it’s sometimes hard to convey that properly.



No prob J. If we where in a boozer I fancy we'd have a good conversation about theme, versus melody, versus line and development because the distinctions are relevant and important to a composing mindset and strategy as you have highlighted....it's your round...
btw the concept of line as such feels a little nebulous at times..what's your take on it? (or anybody else for that matter). It might well mean different things to different folk. For me I consider it more as an over-arching concept, not so localised as say motivic development and more of an emotional strategy over longer periods of time, based on perhaps cadential or key/ transition destinations as one example, or maybe tension/release principles......one could go on..and I normally do, but am trying to become more succinct...whatever...oh I'm failing again.


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## Quasar (Feb 22, 2019)

Melody doesn't matter at all. Neither does audio. Cage's _4'33"_ is clearly the music of the future, and this realization saved me a ton of money on studio monitors since - without audio - you obviously don't need them.


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## WindcryMusic (Feb 22, 2019)

Quasar said:


> Melody doesn't matter at all. Neither does audio. Cage's _4'33"_ is clearly the music of the future, and this realization saved me a ton of money on studio monitors since - without audio - you obviously don't need them.



One thing to say about silence ... you get a perfect mix thereof every time. It's an enticing prospect.


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## gregh (Feb 22, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> btw the concept of line as such feels a little nebulous at times..what's your take on it? (or anybody else for that matter).


Bregman's auditory scene analysis has plenty of insight into "line"

http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/Group2/abregm1/web/downloadstoc.htm


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## Greg (Feb 22, 2019)

I am sorry but your advice is pathetic. Even if you do write library music, just settling for whatever idea pops into your head first to avoid "stress" because who really knows whats good or not good is total bullshit. That's how you're really trying to inspire other composers?


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 23, 2019)

gregh said:


> Bregman's auditory scene analysis has plenty of insight into "line"
> 
> http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/Group2/abregm1/web/downloadstoc.htm



Hi Greg,

I ploughed through the first 11 chapters and intend to read the rest but just wanted to say thanks for the very interesting link.
One could easily re-imagine his work as a definitive metaphorical blueprint for orchestration and especially motivic development,. Relating it to 'line' as such was harder (but not impossible)for me because I have a different view on that. His 'segregations' feel more motif orientated whereas my view of line is that it relates to a longer line over bigger periods of time. That's just me though and perhaps there's more to read on this further in.
There is a lot of technical compositional value in his studies on separation and speed I feel and one could almost cynically manipulate development of material to maximum perception for the listener if one where inclined to, even in a sea of complexity. Mind you, all great music sort of does that anyway!! (As an aside, I learnt early on in media that in faster paced music, a slower harmonic rate of change greatly aids perception for the [non-educated] listener).

A truly fascinating read and even though I recognise a lot of what he is saying (we instinctively compose utilising similar protocols right?), I find the link highly illuminating.


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## gregh (Feb 23, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> Hi Greg,
> 
> I ploughed through the first 11 chapters and intend to read the rest but just wanted to say thanks for the very interesting link.
> One could easily re-imagine his work as a definitive metaphorical blueprint for orchestration and especially motivic development,. Relating it to 'line' as such was harder (but not impossible)for me because I have a different view on that. His 'segregations' feel more motif orientated whereas my view of line is that it relates to a longer line over bigger periods of time. That's just me though and perhaps there's more to read on this further in.
> ...


glad you got something from that Mike - perhaps line is motif (as per Bregman) plus memory. The thing then is to look at why a larger structure of motifs eg a phrase (?) gets linked - for that I would look at language development - the pitch contours of phrasing in language influence musical perception and this starts in utero with the baby hearing the mothers voice - in fact mothers have a language specific method of talking to their baby in the womb that enhances / exaggerates the pitch and amplitude contours. I have written about this http://greg-hooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/microlab-paper-1.pdf (here) (with a video of the talk as well) http://greg-hooper.com/2018/06/22/listeners-in-the-womb/

[the paper is a lot better than the talk - I never prepare my talks and it shows  ]


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## Akarin (Feb 23, 2019)

I love it when someone as prolific and successful as Nick Murray (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2357043/) comes here to post about his experience and is getting kicked in the nuts by random people I've never heard of :-p


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 23, 2019)

Akarin said:


> I love it when someone as prolific and successful as Nick Murray (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2357043/) comes here to post about his experience and is getting kicked in the nuts by random people I've never heard of :-p



Yeah. What gives man, it's the same with Nestlé or Kim Kardashian - they're so successful, why are they getting flak?


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## Akarin (Feb 23, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Yeah. What gives man, it's the same with Nestlé or Kim Kardashian - they're so successful, why are they getting flak?



Sorry, can't hear you over the sound of my snobbery meter. It's in the red and about to explode from all the elitism in this thread. 

PS. On Nick's channel, there's a video where he explains TV structure. It got me to have my first album accepted by a rather big publisher. What have You done recently for the community?


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 23, 2019)

Akarin said:


> Sorry, can't hear you over the sound of my snobbery meter. It's in the red and about to explode from all the elitism in this thread.



Hey Akarin, seeing you gave no clear context to this remark, I'd love to think you are not referring to my comments here.
I'm just having a knowledgable conversation with peers is all and one relevant to the OP.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 23, 2019)

Akarin said:


> Sorry, can't hear you over the sound of my snobbery meter. It's in the red and about to explode from all the elitism in this thread.
> 
> PS. On Nick's channel, there's a video where he explains TV structure. It got me to have my first album accepted by a rather big publisher. What have You done recently for the community?



Oh, so it's a pissing contest now? My great contribution to the "community" this week was to raise awareness regarding false musical complacence and lack of creative rigor. You should check it out. What are your grand samaritan merits as of late, while we're at it? And why are you arguing, anyway? Too many people only around for the fun of trolling lately.


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## Akarin (Feb 23, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Oh, so it's a pissing contest now? My great contribution to the "community" this week was to raise awareness regarding false musical complacence and lack of creative rigor. You should check it out. What are your grand samaritan merits as of late, while we're at it? And why are you arguing, anyway? Too many people only around for the fun of trolling lately.



I'm not fully awake yet, so you'll have to excuse the lack of filter in my words but here it goes. I was having a conversation with a composer in another group, on another forum the other day. He shown me a theory trick that I didn't know of and then pointed me to a video he made. I thought it was great and definitely applicable to what I was doing. I told him that he should share it on VI C and the answer went something like that:

"What? To get slammed by these elitist jerks? The Slash-lookalike and the other bunch? I'd rather start a new thread on reverb on Gearslutz."

See, people constantly bashing others in here is the reason many don't have the strength to participate. Even if they have something sensible to say.


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## gregh (Feb 23, 2019)

my web experience has been enormously improved through far too quickly using ignore and block functions (twitter is great if you heavily censor people)


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 23, 2019)

nickmurraymusic said:


> Hey Guys,
> I wanted to open up this discussion on melody. Does it even matter?
> Check out my thoughts on it here and would love to hear what you think!



I think what you're talking about almost exclusively applies to scoring for film or video. With concert music you cannot write generic music and simply say "who's to say if this is good or not?" 
It needs to hold an audience and be engaging or compelling, in essence stand on its own. 
However, I think there still needs to be a qualitative approach to the melody when writing scoring music. There is worst, worse, mediocre, better, best, etc. I would rather write some unique and interesting that can also work as a background than simply say it doesn't matter. 
While I don't really like a lot of Scheonberg's music, I tend to agree with him that melody is paramount. 
I am not saying that melodies can't be simple. 
Of course context does matter. But I think melody is the most communicative aspect of music, so when you ARE writing a melody (and not just doing a generic background) it is essential. And if you're scoring for a film, then the various melodies may develop throughout the film - recapitulate in different ways, morph into something new, contrast with something else, etc.


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 23, 2019)

Akarin said:


> See, people constantly bashing others in here is the reason many don't have the strength to participate. Even if they have something sensible to say.



Well I'll take the lack of response to my last post to you as in the affirmative and consider myself being bashed. The quote above ironically says it all. I for one wont be cowed or embarrassed by prejudice against a lifetimes knowledge, study and hard work.
yeah you're right Greg. (I'll get to your video soon)


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 23, 2019)

I think a good case study on how simple melodies can be profound and develop throughout a piece is Sibelius' 7th symphony.


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 23, 2019)

DS_Joost said:


> Depends on what you are trying to create. I think melody matters absolutely, and can truly help create a sense of progression in a story where it sometimes is sorely needed.
> 
> However, I think that this video touches upon another concept that honestly, I do not understand at all, and I see it pop up all the time:
> 
> ...


But you can say something with melody, without context. You can create the landscape, story, or context with the melody itself. I think that's why it matters what genre or purpose there is. If it's for film, then it will depend on if it's under talking, or if it's supposed to be a dramatic musical moment, or whatsoever. For concert music, it almost needs to create its own context.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 23, 2019)

Akarin said:


> I was having a conversation with a composer in another group, on another forum the other day. He shown me a theory trick that I didn't know of and then pointed me to a video he made. I thought it was great and definitely applicable to what I was doing. I told him that he should share it on VI C and the answer went something like that:
> 
> "What? To get slammed by these elitist jerks? The Slash-lookalike and the other bunch? I'd rather start a new thread on reverb on Gearslutz."



That sucks of course. I do understand how sometimes people can get turned off by the shenanigans (see also: Spitfire threads/Christian Henson). But still, there's nuance. It should always be OK to disagree with a particular opinion or approach, even if it's coming from a more or less "succesful" person. I think in this particular thread, I've seen some legitimate objections (Nick did ask for people's opinions after all) - along with some business observations, which, by the way, didn't necessarily come from "bums" who never did anything notable either.

That's not automatically bashing - although there's definitely some of that happening on this forum as well and I'm sure it turns people off.


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 23, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That sucks of course. I do understand how sometimes people can get turned off by the shenanigans (see also: Spitfire threads/Christian Henson). But still, there's nuance. It should always be OK to disagree with a particular opinion or approach, even if it's coming from a more or less "succesful" person. I think in this particular thread, I've seen some legitimate objections (Nick did ask for people's opinions after all) - along with some business observations, which, by the way, didn't necessarily come from "bums" who never did anything notable either.
> 
> That's not automatically bashing - although there's definitely some of that happening on this forum as well and I'm sure it turns people off.


I never understand why people are so afraid of criticism. If you're confident in what you're doing, and you're doing your best, then opinions should only help you. We can sift through the opinions (and even bashing) and apply it if we choose, or ignore it. As you said, he asked for opinions.


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 23, 2019)

cheers @ka00 , but I haven't blocked anyone. Actually can't see the ignored posts button anyway!!


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 23, 2019)

Don't know the show but get you. This started with a remark at the bottom of page 3 by Akarin. I'm not bothered by it. Thanks anyway....


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 23, 2019)

Akarin said:


> I'm not fully awake yet, so you'll have to excuse the lack of filter in my words but here it goes. I was having a conversation with a composer in another group, on another forum the other day. He shown me a theory trick that I didn't know of and then pointed me to a video he made. I thought it was great and definitely applicable to what I was doing. I told him that he should share it on VI C and the answer went something like that:
> 
> "What? To get slammed by these elitist jerks? The Slash-lookalike and the other bunch? I'd rather start a new thread on reverb on Gearslutz."
> 
> See, people constantly bashing others in here is the reason many don't have the strength to participate. Even if they have something sensible to say.


sweet...we're infamous around the world. 

I like that.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 23, 2019)

I wonder who's the Slash lookalike. @jononotbono ?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Feb 23, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I wonder who's the Slash lookalike. @jononotbono ?



Think about the hat and sunglasses, and I bet you'll find out soon


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## Akarin (Feb 23, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I wonder who's the Slash lookalike. @jononotbono ?



Ha come on... Jono is the sweetest guy ever!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 23, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> Think about the hat and sunglasses, and I bet you'll find out soon



Haha! I get it. But Luke is curly. He looks more like Slash. Alex is more like ... Gary Oldman in Bram Stoker's Dracula.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 23, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Too many people only around for the fun of trolling lately.



Is that a bad thing?


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## brenneisen (Feb 23, 2019)

does this thread even matter?


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 23, 2019)

*What A Full Orchestration WITHOUT MELODIES Sounds Like*


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 28, 2019)

muk said:


> Just a heads up, if people who are starting out in the production music business are browsing the OP website: don't submit any music to him. The deal he offers is almost offensively bad. Paying to submit is a very bad idea. You can submit for free to hundreds of libraries that can get you placements. Among them all the top tier libraries. Just do a bit of research.
> 
> But most importantly: never ever give away any part of the writer's share to anybody who has not collaborated on a track. If Nick didn't write half of the track, don't give him 50% of the writer's share. That's a truly horrible deal for you. I'd call this offer impudent. In my opinion he is trying to take advantage of people who are inexperienced and don't know better. So stay well clear of this 'deal'. You can do a lot better than that, even if you have no experience at all and are just starting out.
> 
> And these severe words of warning are all the attention his youtube channel and website should get in my opinion.



This may sound insane, but I think I will try the pay-to-play scheme and see what the results are. I have some music sitting around waiting for a home.

I am not suggesting that everyone try this. But I do want to try to see if I succeed or fail. The worst to happen is to get a “no”.


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## Akarin (Feb 28, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> This may sound insane, but I think I will try the pay-to-play scheme and see what the results are. I have some music sitting around waiting for a home.
> 
> I am not suggesting that everyone try this. But I do want to try to see if I succeed or fail. The worst to happen is to get a “no”.



Definitely share your experience! $5 for the feedback of someone with as much experience in production music sounds like an awesome deal!


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