# Thinking of ditching VEPRO....



## José Herring (Feb 26, 2020)

Because, f*&k it. Pissed that I only get one license now. And, not interested in any of the new features.

Anybody successfully using Carla? If so anybody using it with Linux or Windows 10? How stable is it and how stable is JACK driver?


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## kurtvanzo (Feb 26, 2020)

I understand, them going to one license was a bummer. Also going from 5 to 6 to 7 and paying for each step along the way for limited (although helpful) return was not great either.

But I remind myself how slow my system was without it, and I reconsider. Then last Friday I updated to the latest version of Komplete Kontrol and found out the latest version of VEP7 (VST) crashes on opening every time. Making all my templetes and projects unusable. Can't go back on versions of KK (thank you NI and Native Access) and previous versions of VE Pro also crash... terrible day.

After emailing support my crash reports they emailed back a brand new version of VE Pro within 2 hours that doesn't crash and has been stable ever since. TWO HOURS. No excuses, no "Talk to NI about KK". Instead they alerted NI themselves and came up with a fix for me. Presto.

I don't know of any other company that would do that. At least not without a lot of BS first. And then it would come a week later if at all. They ARE an exceptional company. I want a company that will take support seriously. Yet I deal with companies like NI or Apple or Avid where it feels non-existent. So I don't know the possibility of finding another host for samples that does the same job AND has support for when other companies screw up, like VSL.

Yet I still won't buy their instruments because of their policies about replacing lost licenses. :D

Bottom line is are you liking where it's going (being able to turn off channels, organize tracks, smoother operation) or is the advantage not significant enough for how you work? For me, now running on one loaded machine rather than two, it still seems to majorly improve things and be simple (and more helpful than KK) to incorporate. Also being able to save, disconnect, reconnect and have it work right has been a breeze.

For those two times (it happened on VEPro 5 too) it was a fiasco they came up with a fix quick, even thought this last time it wasn't their fault. Even with the extra steps to set it up (I use templetes and presets now) it makes things quicker in the heat of battle, and for a heavy session it's indespensible.


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## wst3 (Feb 26, 2020)

VSL is an interesting company - almost like two companies... their support is stellar, I've heard tales similar to yours, and I've had great experiences myself (fortunately only a couple). And yet they seem almost deaf to the rising chorus of complaints about some of their business practices - their policies about replacing licenses and the recent license change for VEPro to name but two.

I do keep meaning to try VEPro 7, but for now 6 is doing the trick, not sure I'd benefit from any of the new stuff in 7, but of course I won't know till I try.


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## X-Bassist (Feb 26, 2020)

wst3 said:


> not sure I'd benefit from any of the new stuff in 7, but of course I won't know till I try.


This is the issue. It’s now the center of all my templetes (along with Komplete Kontrol) so I try to keep up, since I know many of my large sessions won’t work well without it. But if you don’t need the features, I felt VEP6 was the most stable of any at the latest version.

Considering newer computers are handling things better we may come to a point where VE Pro is unnecessary for all but the largest sessions. Which means it’s user base may shrink and the price may rise before it’s demise. But I see them updating it for a while as a base for their other products - meaning VE Pro 8,9,10,11,12, 2026... ;D


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## José Herring (Feb 26, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> But I see them updating it for a while as a base for their other products - meaning VE Pro 8,9,10,11,12, 2026... ;D


This is the issue. I've been on VEPro since it first came out. What started out as a great network VST host over every subsequent update while some great new features have been introduced it became clear that VSL is mostly interested in housing their own instruments and fx, ect.. So along about VEPro 5 I stopped seeing the need to update because I'm not interested in anything else VSL I own nothing of their overpriced dated library and their new stuff is even more overpriced and not even as good as the old stuff. 

Never been much of a fan of VSL and I find that while VEPro is a great piece of software I'm no longer much interested in it either. 

Carla looks good but after 10 years of having VEPro as the center of my template, it's gonna be hard to jump onto another ship.


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## jononotbono (Feb 26, 2020)

I haven’t yet upgraded from 6 to 7. It’s on the cards but the whole upgrade to go down to 1 license from 3 annoyed me and that combined with being too busy, I haven’t really pushed to upgrade yet. I should as I’ve been asked to Beta test some software that needs 7 so maybe next month it will happen.

I don’t think I could stop using VEPro. It’s a modern day wonder. Can’t even believe it exists and works.


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## José Herring (Feb 26, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> I haven’t yet upgraded from 6 to 7. It’s on the cards but the whole upgrade to go down to 1 license from 3 annoyed me and that combined with being too busy, I haven’t really pushed to upgrade yet. I should as I’ve been asked to Beta test some software that needs 7 so maybe next month it will happen.
> 
> I don’t think I could stop using VEPro. It’s a modern day wonder. Can’t even believe it exists and works.


I'm a rebel. When I see a company gain market dominance then use that to reduce the service and up the price, it's time to send them a message. They ain't the only game in town. So from 3 licenses down to one and a price increase, no my brodda. [email protected]$k 'em. I'll find another solution.


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## jononotbono (Feb 26, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I'm a rebel. When I see a company gain market dominance then use that to reduce the service and up the price, it's time to send them a message. They ain't the only game in town. So from 3 licenses down to one and a price increase, no my brodda. [email protected]$k 'em. I'll find another solution.



But are other solutions stable? I have no idea.


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## José Herring (Feb 26, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> But are other solutions stable? I have no idea.


That is what I'm trying to find out. I do know before VEPro there were a couple of stable solutions like Audio port coupled with IP midi.


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## José Herring (Feb 26, 2020)

Carla is way over complicated. Not for me.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 26, 2020)

VEP is wondrous and amazing. MIDI and audio network connectivity over a CAT cord?? Awesome.

I’ve been more than happy to upgrade through 6, but I have to admit the 7 policy gave me pause. I’m staying with 6 for now.

I also have SE Woodwinds, a terrific bargain, but that’s it for VSL instruments other than the free Epic Orchestra, which I really like parts of. Overall, my experience with VSL has been great. Cant say I love the dongle replacement policy though.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 27, 2020)

I have upgraded VE Pro each time and 7 is great. But yes, downgrading from 3 licenses to 1 was a lousy smack in the customers’ face, and I can understand why it would breed resentment


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## José Herring (Feb 27, 2020)

I started looking into upgrading to 7 and while I'm still pissed that I only get one license and will have to give up my other 2 when I upgrade, there really is nothing better and that's where VSL has us by the balls. But, for less than $300 bucks I can cover my machines. Oh well, I can think of worse things to spend the money on.


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## jononotbono (Feb 27, 2020)

B


josejherring said:


> I started looking into upgrading to 7 and while I'm still pissed that I only get one license and will have to give up my other 2 when I upgrade, there really is nothing better and that's where VSL has us by the balls. But, for less than $300 bucks I can cover my machines. Oh well, I can think of worse things to spend the money on.



Yeah I agree although I guess it’s a bit of a bummer that I’m going to have to dip into my savings that I was planning on buying a new Blow up sex doll for. At the end of day, I have to have VEPro. I’m never going back down the road of hosting the majority of my samples inside Cubase. It’s easy to take for granted what the benefits of VEPro are in a system. So be it.


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## InLight-Tone (Feb 27, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> But are other solutions stable? I have no idea.


Disabled track templates and/or track presets. Same difference less monkeying around...


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## jononotbono (Feb 27, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> Disabled track templates and/or track presets. Same difference less monkeying around...



No. I don't know how many more times we seem to go around in this circle but I can't stand the save times of an instrument track only template. I'm glad that approach works for you. 

I'm wasn't asking for this solution. The "other solutions" I am specifically asking about, in this specific context of which this thread is about, are other solutions like VEPro, for example, Bidule or Carla. Cheers.


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## Manaberry (Feb 27, 2020)

VSL support is lovely. And like most of you, I don't like that fact the plan was downgraded from 3 to 1 license. I'm not going to pay "twice" a software that was supposed to be used on multiple machines. Even if I want to use a slave. Nope.

For Komplete Kontrol, this software is a mess. It's Kontakt wrapped in another level of something. If somehow you have a problem with KK, everything falls apart. Happened to me once. Since then, I've never used KK again in any of my projects, template or anything. Do yourself a favor, stop using it.


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## wcreed51 (Feb 27, 2020)

The new plan is less expensive for those who use VEP on a single machine, which I would guess is the majority of their customers. Those who use multiple systems are more likely to be professionals, and the cost is a tax write off. So I don' see what the fuss is about... Compared to the cost of the libraries hosted in VEP, the cost is a pittance.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Feb 27, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I'll find another solution.


Since Logic updated last summer to allow disabling tracks, that in combination with Kontakt 6 fixing CPU performance have made it possible for me to stop using VEP altogether. It's awesome.

I've also ditched using a template, since Logic allows me to call up any instrument or group of instruments with all settings and signal chain, pretty close to instantly with a few keystrokes. I can call up all violins across all libraries if I want. Or I can call up a standard CSS string section, or call up all of my spiccatos across all libraries, with all my settings in place. Or I can call things up one instrument at a time, or call up an entire template's worth, or any amount in between.


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## wst3 (Feb 27, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> The "other solutions" I am specifically asking about, in this specific context of which this thread is about, are other solutions like VEPro, for example, Bidule or Carla. Cheers.


Looking at Carla as we speak (type?), but it appears that there is no ASIO support, and that would be a deal breaker for me.

Looking at a combination of Dante or AES67 for audio and ipMIDI - a ton of work, and I'd probably still need a VST host. Maybe not?

Before I adopted VEPro (back round v5) I was using Bidule. Bidule works, and it is stable, and it is freakishly flexible, but it is also a black hole for time - and not just time to make it work, but time to try this and that and this and that... you get the idea.

I may take another look at Bidule and treat it as just a tool for hosting plugins and communicating across the network.

It would be easier if VSL would lighten up a bit.


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## Gingerbread (Feb 27, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Since Logic updated last summer to allow disabling tracks, that in combination with Kontakt 6 fixing CPU performance have made it possible for me to stop using VEP altogether. It's awesome.
> 
> I've also ditched using a template, since Logic allows me to call up any instrument or group of instruments with all settings and signal chain, pretty close to instantly with a few keystrokes. I can call up all violins across all libraries if I want. Or I can call up a standard CSS string section, or call up all of my spiccatos across all libraries, with all my settings in place. Or I can call things up one instrument at a time, or call up an entire template's worth, or any amount in between.


Wait, what? How are you able to do that (in your 2nd paragraph)? Is there a video or other description to show how that's done?


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## kitekrazy (Feb 27, 2020)

I think my 2 licenses cost less than the previous licenses of 5,6. I think they stated that some people were not able to use all of their licenses if you have like 4 machines. IMO they should discount additional licenses like most software companies. I have to wonder that some of their strange business decisions will eventually hurt them.


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 27, 2020)

I emailed them about the whole 3 down to 1 thing when 7 came out and they offered me a "special deal" for "power users." I was kind of flattered to be referred to as such but then I never responded back and just stuck with 6.


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## José Herring (Feb 27, 2020)

wst3 said:


> Looking at Carla as we speak (type?), but it appears that there is no ASIO support, and that would be a deal breaker for me.
> 
> Looking at a combination of Dante or AES67 for audio and ipMIDI - a ton of work, and I'd probably still need a VST host. Maybe not?
> 
> ...


I almost hopped on Bidule back in the day. It looks awesome. Didn't realize it now includes Network support. 

The only reason I didn't get into it is because it looked a little too close to the Logic Environment thingy which even though I never used Logic use to give me nightmares.


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## JohnG (Feb 27, 2020)

Still on VE Pro 6 here. I wasn't tempted by anything I saw in version 7.


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## jononotbono (Feb 27, 2020)

wst3 said:


> Looking at Carla as we speak (type?), but it appears that there is no ASIO support, and that would be a deal breaker for me.
> 
> Looking at a combination of Dante or AES67 for audio and ipMIDI - a ton of work, and I'd probably still need a VST host. Maybe not?
> 
> ...



Yeah I’m not moving from VEPro. What is it that these other programs do that VEPro can’t that anybody will need?


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## Land of Missing Parts (Feb 27, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> Wait, what? How are you able to do that (in your 2nd paragraph)? Is there a video or other description to show how that's done?


Sure. First set up the instrument or track stack the way you want it, and make sure it is selected. Then hit "Y", which open the "Library" window. At the bottom right, hit "Save". It'll save in a folder called "User Patches".

Now, you can recall that at anytime by doing a keyword search in the "Library" window (where it says "Search Sounds"). But it gets better. You can use multiple keywords in your instrument name. For instance, all of my Metropolis Ark patches begin with "Ark". So I can type "Ark" and call up all instruments from both of the Arks that I own. I can write "Ark1" or "Ark2" to narrow it further. I can also type "horn" and pull up all of the horns in Arks 1 and 2 (Ark2 flugelhorn will also appear), as well as all horns from all other libraries. Add an "s" to make it "horns" and the solo horns disappear, leaving just the horn ensembles.

With keywords, I can search any instrument, developer, or specific library. I can search "LABS" to call up all Spitfire LABS freebies. Or I can search "music box" to call up the Spitfire LABS music box, plus the fifteen or so other music boxes I have.

It gets better still. Because you can save any combination of instruments in any configuration into track stacks, and pull them up in the same way, keyword searchable. So you can load up all of your spiccatos, for example, then save the stack. Or nest any combination of instruments from your template--or even the entire template--into a track stack to recall it whenever you want. Oh, and it'll recall all inserts, the plugins will retain the settings you had, it'll save things like articulation sets too.

Another things that rules: none of this alters the basic folder structure of your files. It creates a separate folder structure, which can easily be edited in Finder. You can move patches into different folders, edit the names, and the changes will be reflected immediately in Logic's patch library (I think you hit a "refresh" button somewhere). And there's no broken links, nothing gets changed in the folder structure of the original library. I never get Kontakt's dreaded "content missing" window.

There's only one drawback that I can think of, and it's than Logic currently won't save a track delay or negative track delay. It's a minor annoyance, and my guess is that Logic will eventually fix it.

(Also, as a little sidenote, I still owe you an answer about CSS from a different thread .)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 27, 2020)

wst3 said:


> not sure I'd benefit from any of the new stuff in 7



The plug-ins are really great.


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## Gingerbread (Feb 27, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Sure. First set up the instrument or track stack the way you want it, and make sure it is selected. Then hit "Y", which open the "Library" window. At the bottom right, hit "Save". It'll save in a folder called "User Patches".
> 
> Now, you can recall that at anytime by doing a keyword search in the "Library" window (where it says "Search Sounds"). But it gets better. You can use different keywords in your instrument name. For instance, all of my Metropolis Ark patches begin with "Ark". So I can type "Ark" and call up all instruments from both of the Arks that I own. I can write "Ark1" or "Ark2" to narrow it further. I can also type "horn" and pull up all of the horns in Arks 1 and 2 (Ark2 flugelhorn will also appear), as well as all horns from all other libraries. With keywords, I can search any instrument, developer, or specific library. I can search "LABS" to call up all Spitfire LABS freebies. Or I can search "music box" to call up the Spitfire LABS music box, plus the fifteen or so other music boxes I have.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! Bookmarking this post, this will be so incredibly useful. Thanks again!


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## jbuhler (Feb 27, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Sure. First set up the instrument or track stack the way you want it, and make sure it is selected. Then hit "Y", which open the "Library" window. At the bottom right, hit "Save". It'll save in a folder called "User Patches".
> 
> Now, you can recall that at anytime by doing a keyword search in the "Library" window (where it says "Search Sounds"). But it gets better. You can use different keywords in your instrument name. For instance, all of my Metropolis Ark patches begin with "Ark". So I can type "Ark" and call up all instruments from both of the Arks that I own. I can write "Ark1" or "Ark2" to narrow it further. I can also type "horn" and pull up all of the horns in Arks 1 and 2 (Ark2 flugelhorn will also appear), as well as all horns from all other libraries. With keywords, I can search any instrument, developer, or specific library. I can search "LABS" to call up all Spitfire LABS freebies. Or I can search "music box" to call up the Spitfire LABS music box, plus the fifteen or so other music boxes I have.
> 
> ...


When I try this, it loads all the in instruments in the track stack and makes them active, so it can sometimes take awhile to load them into Logic if the track stack contains a lot of instruments. If you then save the file and reopen it, it only loads the active tracks as expected, but it can be a bit of time delay (and RAM filler) if the stack is large. Also this only works for me with summing stacks. Is there a setting I'm missing or something to be able to save folder (non-summing) stacks?


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## Land of Missing Parts (Feb 27, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> When I try this, it loads all the in instruments in the track stack and makes them active, so it can sometimes take awhile to load them into Logic if the track stack contains a lot of instruments. If you then save the file and reopen it, it only loads the active tracks as expected, but it can be a bit of time delay (and RAM filler) if the stack is large. Also this only works for me with summing stacks. Is there a setting I'm missing or something to be able to save folder (non-summing) stacks?


I've only done it with summing stacks. So I guess this method is limited to one level of nesting.

You make a good point about being able to load templates disabled. I haven't tried loading disabled patches with the method I described above. So templates may have that advantage over the custom patches.


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## InLight-Tone (Feb 27, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Sure. First set up the instrument or track stack the way you want it, and make sure it is selected. Then hit "Y", which open the "Library" window. At the bottom right, hit "Save". It'll save in a folder called "User Patches".
> 
> Now, you can recall that at anytime by doing a keyword search in the "Library" window (where it says "Search Sounds"). But it gets better. You can use different keywords in your instrument name. For instance, all of my Metropolis Ark patches begin with "Ark". So I can type "Ark" and call up all instruments from both of the Arks that I own. I can write "Ark1" or "Ark2" to narrow it further. I can also type "horn" and pull up all of the horns in Arks 1 and 2 (Ark2 flugelhorn will also appear), as well as all horns from all other libraries. With keywords, I can search any instrument, developer, or specific library. I can search "LABS" to call up all Spitfire LABS freebies. Or I can search "music box" to call up the Spitfire LABS music box, plus the fifteen or so other music boxes I have.
> 
> ...


Thank you for spelling this out. This is how I'm doing things as well in Logic. Cubase was horrible handling presets and the MediaBay was clunky as hell. I also didn't like having all those folders cluttering my project and the Visibility agents can't hide them. 

Studio One was good but having to drag in presets I didn't like. Why no keyboard shortcut like RETURN? In Logic you can replace tracks instantly with a different one by clicking or by tapping on Logic Remote. Run through all your spiccato patches in an instant etc.

The library is so good you can manage 5000-10,000+ tracks or combinations of tracks with ease, all searchable. If you label your presets well, it's genius. Using NVMe drives loading is near instantaneous. 

Sorry Jono, (he's getting mad at me for drumming on about this)...


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## jbuhler (Feb 27, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I've only done it with summing stacks. So I guess this method is limited to one level of nesting.
> 
> You make a good point about being able to load templates disabled. I haven't tried loading disabled patches with the method I described above. So templates may have that advantage over the custom patches. (You can disable tracks without closing your project by option-clicking the blue on/off button, FYI. You probably already know this, but just in case .)


Yeah, I'm not at my rig right now, but I think you can also manually disable the stacks and save them as user patches, and then they will load in their manually disabled state.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Feb 27, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Yeah, I'm not at my rig right now, but I think you can also manually disable the stacks and save them as user patches, and then they will load in their manually disabled state.


Ah, gotcha. Wonders never cease.



InLight-Tone said:


> The library is so good you can manage 5000-10,000+ tracks or combinations of tracks with ease, all searchable. If you label your presets well, it's genius. Using NVMe drives loading is near instantaneous.


Yeah, Logic's killing it these days.


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## InLight-Tone (Feb 27, 2020)

Logic enables any saved preset unfortunately, it doesn't remember the disabled status.


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## jononotbono (Feb 27, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> Thank you for spelling this out. This is how I'm doing things as well in Logic. Cubase was horrible handling presets and the MediaBay was clunky as hell. I also didn't like having all those folders cluttering my project and the Visibility agents can't hide them.
> 
> Studio One was good but having to drag in presets I didn't like. Why no keyboard shortcut like RETURN? In Logic you can replace tracks instantly with a different one by clicking or by tapping on Logic Remote. Run through all your spiccato patches in an instant etc.
> 
> ...



😂 I’m not getting mad.

I have a 4000+ track template. Lots of it via VEPro and lots with disabled instrument tracks. I’m very aware of the pros and cons of disabled track templates. And the cons are Dogs Brown.

I’m about to build a new template so I’m going to make it using expression maps and VEPro. So... hopefully the track count will go down to at least 3900 tracks 😂


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## Sean J (Feb 27, 2020)

Future VEP Replacement --->>> Cantabile

VST hosts like Freestyle have nice features, but Brad Robinson (Cantabile) seems more open. He invited me to join a thread, on developing a vst3 for ports to Cantabile. That would preserve instruments in RAM and allow offline rendering (stems export, bouncing, etc). That's a single-machine answer, but it's the closest I've come to finding a developer who might open the door. Bug him!!! lol


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## InLight-Tone (Feb 27, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> 😂 I’m not getting mad.
> 
> I have a 4000+ track template. Lots of it via VEPro and lots with disabled instrument tracks. I’m very aware of the pros and cons of disabled track templates. And the cons are Dogs Brown.
> 
> I’m about to build a new template so I’m going to make it using expression maps and VEPro. So... hopefully the track count will go down to at least 3900 tracks 😂


I apologize for dis-railing your thread. I know it can be irritating like when Reaper fanboiz interject their undying love of Reaper in EVERY DAW discussion. That being said, having all tracks from Albion IV in a template is a perfect example where track presets shine. Really, how often will you use that? Run through presets instead of clogging up your template...


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## wst3 (Feb 28, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Yeah I’m not moving from VEPro. What is it that these other programs do that VEPro can’t that anybody will need?


Speaking only for Bidule, it is a complex audio and MIDI environment that can probably do anything you can imagine. Hosting plugins is a very small part of the puzzle, which is one of the things that puts people off I think. Which answers the second part of your question - if you are not doing research, or developing your own plugins I do not think it does anything that VEPro can't, and it makes you work more to get there!

Two commercial programs similar to Bidule that I really enjoyed are Quantum FX (db-audioware.com) and Infinity (squest.com). I'm not sure if Quantum FX is still available, it is not on their web site, and it looks like Infinity has not been updated in a while.

It's a pity, these are really cool tools! But I digress...


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## NYC Composer (Feb 28, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> 😂 I’m not getting mad.
> 
> I have a 4000+ track template. Lots of it via VEPro and lots with disabled instrument tracks. I’m very aware of the pros and cons of disabled track templates. And the cons are Dogs Brown.
> 
> I’m about to build a new template so I’m going to make it using expression maps and VEPro. So... hopefully the track count will go down to at least 3900 tracks 😂


How many instances of VEP are you using, and in which sequencer?


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## Dietz (Feb 28, 2020)

wst3 said:


> I really enjoyed [..] Quantum FX (db-audioware.com)


Yay! Big Quantum-FX fan here!  ... a real pity that Dave Brown dropped the development of this modular FX system quite some time ago. One of the reasons for me to use 32bit-wrappers in a 64bit DAW, or a 32bit-instance of VE Pro ...


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## jononotbono (Feb 28, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> How many instances of VEP are you using, and in which sequencer?



Using Cubase 10 and would have to check about number of instances.

Going to rebuild my template in Cubase 10.5 though.


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## wst3 (Feb 28, 2020)

Dietz said:


> Yay! Big Quantum-FX fan here!  ... a real pity that Dave Brown dropped the development of this modular FX system quite some time ago. One of the reasons for me to use 32bit-wrappers in a 64bit DAW, or a 32bit-instance of VE Pro ...


Knew there was a reason I liked you!!!

Yes, I was sorry to see Dave drop support for audio plugins, and especially Quantum FX. On the other hand I am quite impressed with his lighting control software. The man has chops, and apparently some business sense, or at least I hope he is doing better with the lighting side of things.

I did give up on wrapping Quantum FX, didn't think of putting it in a 32 bit VEPro instance. Now I have to go find the installer and my registration info - I probably still have them<G>!

And that means I can use Flying Haggis again - while it is not a direct copy of anything I've ever used, I was able to get some absolutely awesome Vox sounds, and even some Orange-like sounds.

I may owe you a beverage of your choosing...


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## NYC Composer (Feb 28, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Using Cubase 10 and would have to check about number of instances.
> 
> Going to rebuild my template in Cubase 10.5 though.


I’m building a disabled track (in Cubase) template in 10.5.12 on a new iMac i9 8 core. I’m thinking that my 17 instances is too many because I’m idling near 50% ASIO. Not too happy about that.


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## jononotbono (Feb 28, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> I’m building a disabled track (in Cubase) template in 10.5.12 on a new iMac i9 8 core. I’m thinking that my 17 instances is too many because I’m idling near 50% ASIO. Not too happy about that.



The big draw for me to go from 5 to 6 was the ability to automate parameters. However, to say “clunky” would be a tad of an understatement. It was hopeless.

Now, I’m hoping it’s way better in 7. The reason I bring this up is because, like you, I have many instances. Currently across 2 computers I have 33 instances. And the main reason for that is is because instance is a library and it’s simple to enable and disable whole libraries when I don’t need them. However, if the automation in 7 is better, I would use far less instances and via my touch screen, disable/enable whatever I need. Although I wouldn’t be able to instantly see which instance is what library, I would have everything listed in Google Sheets and I would (hopefully) know that when I press a specific button on my Touchscreen, it will enable/disable what I want.

I’ve been putting off this template rebuild for ages so it’s good to actually start thinking about it again. Maybe time to add the 3rd Mac Pro I have collecting dust in the studio closest as well.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 28, 2020)

Yeah, I have my old Mac Pro and an i7 Mini hanging around, but I was hoping to get by with the iMac with 72 GB of RAM. I’d be willing to go to 128 if necessary, but that doesn’t seem to be the bottleneck.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 29, 2020)

I'm a happy camper with VEP7. For me the single biggest difference came shortly after release, when they added automation shortcuts. I'm built round a VEP disabled template - to me its the best of every world, by far - but the slowest part was setting up the automation shortcuts. Now its massively quicker on setting up multiple midi channels in one instrument, its just drag and drop to copy a parameter and auto-increment the midi channel. That's a whole lot of my life I just got back. Also these are all really handy - Instance CPU useage; Instance midi/audio activity; Vertical instance list.

It was a funny sort of release in that the big headline features were non-events for most of us, but these smaller improvements (and especially the undocumented automation shortcuts) have made a considerable difference to me.

Like everyone, I get the resentment at the reduction of number of licenses. In the end I guess everyone just has to balance cost with hassle.


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## Jim Martin (Feb 29, 2020)

Guy Rowland said:


> especially the undocumented automation shortcuts have made a considerable difference to me.



Please explain, what is this undocumented feature?


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 29, 2020)

Jim Martin said:


> Please explain, what is this undocumented feature?



It is actually documented now in the 1.0.1 manual, but not in the general What's New stuff on the webpage as I guess it came after the initial release (and kudos to support for responding quickly and adding it).

On p75 of the 1.0.1 manual (re setting the parameters and channels in the automation pane)

Hold Alt and drag the entry to another entry: assignment copied
Hold Alt-Shift and drag the entry to another entry: assignment copied, CC incremented
Hold Alt-Cmd (Win: Alt-Ctrl) and drag the entry to another entry: assignment copied, Channel incremented

(It's the last one that made all the difference to me).


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## Ben (Feb 29, 2020)

You can find these and more information here without searching in the PDF documents: https://www.vsl.info/manuals/vep7/parameter-automation

Also very helpful shortcuts: https://www.vsl.info/manuals/vep7/shortcuts-and-special-features


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## Will Blackburn (Feb 29, 2020)

I was experiencing too many weird issues and support either didn't answer or was so slow on the forums- it kept on scanning my plugins folder every time i opened it which took forever - RAM would hang for certain instances randomly and it was a nightmare trying to locate which instances were causing it - Instances would stop working for no apparent reason and my VEP files corrupted a fair bit. Now on the Cubase only thing and disablling tracks as and when needed and it's made life alot easier.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Feb 29, 2020)

I was in the early stages of building a template in VE Pro (which I liked) when I decided to build a template of Cubase disabled tracks. My template is composed of large folders of presets for every kind of VI or sound, not just orchestral.

I just start each new project with a blank file and copy over tracks from my template as needed. My Stream Deck is also useful, as I can enable and disable groups of tracks with one button push.


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## Audio Birdi (Feb 29, 2020)

I did find Element VST host recently and tried it out. Haven't tried out ASIO support yet due to looking for a new audio interface at the moment.

I have an idea of using LoopMIDI to send MIDI from Element to a DAW and then use Synchronous Audio Router for routing audio between Element and a DAW.

Element
https://kushview.net/element/
LoopMIDI





loopMIDI | Tobias Erichsen







www.tobias-erichsen.de





Synchronous Audio Router








Releases · eiz/SynchronousAudioRouter


Low latency application audio routing for Windows. Contribute to eiz/SynchronousAudioRouter development by creating an account on GitHub.




github.com





All are free to use and could pose as a potential method for people. Since Element allows for MIDI input between each module too, so disabling and enabling plugins could be done too potentially.


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## José Herring (Mar 2, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> I’m building a disabled track (in Cubase) template in 10.5.12 on a new iMac i9 8 core. I’m thinking that my 17 instances is too many because I’m idling near 50% ASIO. Not too happy about that.


Using instruments tracks for large templates in Cubase is not the best idea. For some reason instrument tracks don't just sit there idle. They suck up CPU cycles even if unused. 


NYC Composer said:


> Yeah, I have my old Mac Pro and an i7 Mini hanging around, but I was hoping to get by with the iMac with 72 GB of RAM. I’d be willing to go to 128 if necessary, but that doesn’t seem to be the bottleneck.


Wow. Didn't realize you could get that much ram in a n imac.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 2, 2020)

Vepro is the best there is for what it is. It’s worth every penny for f you want to host instruments outside your main daw.

That being said, while it used to be somewhat mandatory to need it for big templates, that is not always the case anymore and sometimes it’s better to keep it simple.

The two biggest advantages that I think 🤔 t still has over daws-alone are the ability to have a slave loaded up in ram 24/7 ready to go at all times and also it can be very handy for setting up complex multi-instrument setups


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## NYC Composer (Mar 2, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Using instruments tracks for large templates in Cubase is not the best idea. For some reason instrument tracks don't just sit there idle. They suck up CPU cycles even if unused.
> 
> Wow. Didn't realize you could get that much ram in a n imac.


Well, I host them in VEP 6 and disable the VEP tracks in Cubase. Seemed like the way it should work but not so much. On the other hand, my ASIO meter doesn’t increase much as I record new tracks, so I dunno.

Yeah, the new iMac will go to 128.


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## jononotbono (Mar 2, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> Well, I host them in VEP 6 and disable the VEP tracks in Cubase. Seemed like the way it should work but not so much. On the other hand, my ASIO meter doesn’t increase much as I record new tracks, so I dunno.
> 
> Yeah, the new iMac will go to 128.



So you are using instrument tracks in Cubase and they are connected to VEPro where you are hosting your VI’s?

If this is the case, are the instrument tracks in Cubase enabled or disabled? You’ve said you enable and disable the instruments in VEPro but the instrument tracks in Cubase, if enabled, will be using CPU and RAM. It’s far better to use Rack instruments with VEPro.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 2, 2020)

Nope, I’m hosting them in VEP but disabling the VEP tracks in Cubase, and almost all my instruments are rack instruments.


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## José Herring (Mar 2, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> Nope, I’m hosting them in VEP but disabling the VEP tracks in Cubase, and almost all my instruments are rack instruments.


Hmmmm.... I do the very say thing but my idle is bellow 10 percent. I got it down to around 5% and nothing is disabled. 

How many VEPro instances do you have up? How many tracks total?


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## NYC Composer (Mar 2, 2020)

This stuff really challenges me because I have spatial issues that make thing harder, but anyway-I’m presently using 17 instances of VEP and maybe 150-200 tracks or so.

Just to be clear, I’m disabling the MIDI tracks associated with each instrument/VEP instance. Nothing seems to be unloaded from RAM when I disable.


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## José Herring (Mar 2, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> This stuff really challenges me because I have spatial issues that make thing harder, but anyway-I’m presently using 17 instances of VEP and maybe 150-200 tracks or so.
> 
> Just to be clear, I’m disabling the MIDI tracks associated with each instrument/VEP instance. Nothing seems to be unloaded from RAM when I disable.


This is true. You'd have to go into and purge the samples to get decreased ram. I've done that for some libraries that I don't use as much like LASSLS. You can also do that in play.

If it is any help to you I use 4 VEPro instances across 2 machines. I put all my Kontakt libraries in one instance, all my Play libraries in another on my main machine. On my 2nd machine I put another instance of all Kontakt and a separate instances of Sine Player. I then organize things within each instance by instrument. This helps reduce the amount of VEPro instances that are up and running.

I've worked flawlessly like this since VEPro1. The only time I get into trouble is if I accidentally cross players in the same instances of VEPro (like a load Play in with Kontakt in the same instance or lately Sine with Kontakt). Seems like each player likes its own VEPro instance.


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## Ben (Mar 2, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> Just to be clear, I’m disabling the MIDI tracks associated with each instrument/VEP instance. Nothing seems to be unloaded from RAM when I disable.



Disabling your MIDI-tracks in Cubase will not decrease RAM usage. Instead map the "Disable" parameter in VEP and use automation in Cubase (Use the VST3 plugin in Cubase):






Now you can enable / disable it in Cubase:











More information on parameter automation: https://www.vsl.info/manuals/vep7/parameter-automation


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## NYC Composer (Mar 2, 2020)

Thanks Ben. Is that available in VEP 6?


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## Ben (Mar 2, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> Thanks Ben. Is that available in VEP 6?


No, this is one of the main new features of VEP7. 
If you want to take a look at VEP7 and test it yourself you can download the demo version here (limitation: saving is not available): https://www.vsl.co.at/Vienna_Ensemble_Pro


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## NYC Composer (Mar 2, 2020)

So, you’re saying that unless I’m using VEP7, I might as well just make templates within Cubase.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 2, 2020)

josejherring said:


> This is true. You'd have to go into and purge the samples to get decreased ram. I've done that for some libraries that I don't use as much like LASSLS. You can also do that in play.
> 
> If it is any help to you I use 4 VEPro instances across 2 machines. I put all my Kontakt libraries in one instance, all my Play libraries in another on my main machine. On my 2nd machine I put another instance of all Kontakt and a separate instances of Sine Player. I then organize things within each instance by instrument. This helps reduce the amount of VEPro instances that are up and running.
> 
> I've worked flawlessly like this since VEPro1. The only time I get into trouble is if I accidentally cross players in the same instances of VEPro (like a load Play in with Kontakt in the same instance or lately Sine with Kontakt). Seems like each player likes its own VEPro instance.



When you say “go into”, I assume you mean go into every instance of Kontakt and purge?


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## Ben (Mar 2, 2020)

I can't remember the feature set of VEP6, and at the moment I have not the time to look everything up. But I have build my initial orchestra template with Cubase and VEP6, and I remember prefering it over hosting the instruments directly in Cubase (if not I would have not used VEP in the first place; back then I was not part of the VSL team yet and just started university).

Personally I can highly recommend the upgrade to VEP7. The advanced automation features makes working with large templates so much easier, the included high quality FX (that also have many parameters that can be automated) shifted my sub-group mixing process from the DAW to VEP, so I can return just a few audio channels without loosing control but gaining comfort and performance.


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## José Herring (Mar 2, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> When you say “go into”, I assume you mean go into every instance of Kontakt and purge?


Yes, I purged the samples at the instrument level with in each instance of Kontakt. I only did it though on patches that were taking up a lot of Ram. Makes no sense to do it on patches that are 2 megs like the old EW marimba.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 2, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Yes, I purged the samples at the instrument level with in each instance of Kontakt. I only did it though on patches that were taking up a lot of Ram. Makes no sense to do it on patches that are 2 megs like the old EW marimba.


(I still have the xylophone in my template)


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## José Herring (Mar 2, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> (I still have the xylophone in my template)


An oldie but a goodie.


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## DS_Joost (Mar 4, 2020)

josejherring said:


> An oldie but a goodie.



Yup, also, people have to pull the old EW Celesta from my cold dead body before I give it up!😤

Sorry, off topic, I know. Great thread though!


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## d.healey (Mar 4, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Because, f*&k it. Pissed that I only get one license now. And, not interested in any of the new features.
> 
> Anybody successfully using Carla? If so anybody using it with Linux or Windows 10? How stable is it and how stable is JACK driver?


I use Carla on Linux Mint. I haven't had any stability issues, although I haven't used it for a large template. I'm using the 2.1 release candidate which is missing a few useful features from older versions that have yet to be reimplemented but it adds some newer stuff (like a much improved plugin browser).

There's also Bidule from Plogue, similar to Carla but not free software, I used it years ago.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 4, 2020)

Just on the CPU use in Cubase, I think each instance adds a bit when connected, it doesn't much matter what instruments are loaded or playing within VE Pro itself. So to reclaim CPU in Cubase, you have to switch off the rack instrument, not the channel disable. Higher CPU use if you lower each instance's buffer settings.

My whole template, disabled in VE Pro, takes up around 35% average Asio load when empty (AG2 on low), of which about 10% is VE Pro instances (around 10) and the rest are FX plugins in Cubase.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 4, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Since Logic updated last summer to allow disabling tracks, that in combination with Kontakt 6 fixing CPU performance have made it possible for me to stop using VEP altogether. It's awesome.
> 
> I've also ditched using a template, since Logic allows me to call up any instrument or group of instruments with all settings and signal chain, pretty close to instantly with a few keystrokes. I can call up all violins across all libraries if I want. Or I can call up a standard CSS string section, or call up all of my spiccatos across all libraries, with all my settings in place. Or I can call things up one instrument at a time, or call up an entire template's worth, or any amount in between.



All true, but I came up in a world where you walked into a studio and the players were seated, and that is just my mindset. And typicall in a film or TV score, multiple cues use the same orchestra and so you would have to load them multiple times instead of just once.


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## José Herring (Mar 4, 2020)

d.healey said:


> I use Carla on Linux Mint. I haven't had any stability issues, although I haven't used it for a large template. I'm using the 2.1 release candidate which is missing a few useful features from older versions that have yet to be reimplemented but it adds some newer stuff (like a much improved plugin browser).
> 
> There's also Bidule from Plogue, similar to Carla but not free software, I used it years ago.


As I was looking into it it wasn't clear if Carla could do Audio over Ethernet. Do you know if Carla uses Jack1 or Jack2. As I understand it Jack 1 or 2 can do audio over internet. Carla relies on JacK, but it doesn't say if it uses Jack, Jack 1 or Jack 2. If it can do audio over Ethernet then I'm willing to give it a shot. But, I'm either not reading it right or it really doesn't say on the website.


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## d.healey (Mar 4, 2020)

josejherring said:


> As I was looking into it it wasn't clear if Carla could do Audio over Ethernet. Do you know if Carla uses Jack1 or Jack2. As I understand it Jack 1 or 2 can do audio over internet. Carla relies on JacK, but it doesn't say if it uses Jack, Jack 1 or Jack 2. If it can do audio over Ethernet then I'm willing to give it a shot. But, I'm either not reading it right or it really doesn't say on the website.


I use JACK2 but I haven't tried using it over Ethernet, I figure it should be possible though.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Mar 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> All true, but I come up in a world where you walked into a studio and the players were seated, and that is jut my mindset. And typicall in a film or TV score, multiple cues use the same orchestra and so you would have to load them multiple times instead of just once.


Good points, Jay. Thinking back about it, I do tend to get a configuration I like, and replicate it across projects. I just like the feeling of freedom I have these days; like I can go in whatever direction I want.


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## d.healey (Mar 4, 2020)

I forgot to mention another alternative. Use a DAW. For a long time I used two instances of Reaper, one as a plugin host, the other as my DAW.


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## x-dfo (Mar 15, 2020)

d.healey said:


> I forgot to mention another alternative. Use a DAW. For a long time I used two instances of Reaper, one as a plugin host, the other as my DAW.


Interesting! Was this something stable for you?


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## TonalDynamics (Dec 14, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I started looking into upgrading to 7 and while I'm still pissed that I only get one license and will have to give up my other 2 when I upgrade, there really is nothing better and that's where VSL has us by the balls. But, for less than $300 bucks I can cover my machines. Oh well, I can think of worse things to spend the money on.


Just came across this thread.

I'm looking to incorporate VEPro into my templates with a master/slave setup - just about to download the demo in fact.

I have a very powerful main machine, and a 'fairly' powerful 2nd computer - my previous build.

Am I to understand by this that I would have to buy two separate licenses of this product just to use a single slave PC? Isn't that the whole point of the software? 🤯

When you say 1 license down from 3, do you mean you can only use 1 _slave_ license down from 3 in addition to the master license, or you only have a license for the master machine, and have to buy more just to use a single slave?

Thanks


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## Ben (Dec 14, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> Just came across this thread.
> 
> I'm looking to incorporate VEPro into my templates with a master/slave setup - just about to download the demo in fact.
> 
> ...


You need one license for each machine that is running one or more VEP instances (not counting the connector plugin in your DAW). So if you plan to use VEP only on the secondary machine you need one license; if you want to also host instances on the DAW machine you need two licenses.
You can buy as many additional licenses as you want, and each additional license is much cheaper then the first one.


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## Soundbed (Dec 14, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> Just came across this thread.
> 
> I'm looking to incorporate VEPro into my templates with a master/slave setup - just about to download the demo in fact.
> 
> ...


I have used it on the host machine (only) with 1 license.

I bought a second license, and key, to use it on a separate "slave" machine. 


Ben said:


> So if you plan to use VEP only on the secondary machine you need one license


argh, I guess I did it wrong. :/

I have yet to actually set up the 2nd machine, a couple years later. Could never fully decide on a way to route things that made sense, for me.


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## José Herring (Dec 14, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> Just came across this thread.
> 
> I'm looking to incorporate VEPro into my templates with a master/slave setup - just about to download the demo in fact.
> 
> ...


VSL use to give you the ability to use one license across 3 machines. They changed that so now you need a separate license for each machine you want to use it on. I have a few choice words on that practice and how it relates to monopolies and price gouging but I just leave it at, the decision has made me rather unhappy. And, I did upgrade to VEPro 7 and the time it takes to save and exit the program is ridiculous compared to VEPro 5 which I upgraded from. But, I have to admit that the work flow for VEPro 7 is a lot better than it was back then. 

There is another program though that holds some promise of replacing VEPro and so far it's opensource and free. It's still in the early stages though so I don't know if it is as stable yet. VEPro as far as stability is rock solid. That's another plus point on VEPro's side. 





__





AudioGridder – DSP servers using general purpose computers and networks







audiogridder.com


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 14, 2021)

Well this is news to me. I was planning to slave my old 5,1 Mac Pro as soon as the new iMac or Mac Mini Pro was released. I just assumed that I would have to buy an additional license, but it sounds like I can run VePro on my old machine and just use Logic on the master. Anyone know where you get the plugins for the master? And I assume that I won't need an elicenser on the master?


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## Ben (Dec 14, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> Anyone know where you get the plugins for the master? And I assume that I won't need an elicenser on the master?


No, no eLicenser required for the DAW machine. just install VEP - the plugin does not need a license or an eLicenser.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 14, 2021)

Ben said:


> No, no eLicenser required for the DAW machine. just install VEP - the plugin does not need a license or an eLicenser.


Thanks Ben. This saved me $100 that I would have just paid because I thought I needed it.


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## TonalDynamics (Dec 14, 2021)

José Herring said:


> And, I did upgrade to VEPro 7 and the time it takes to save and exit the program is ridiculous compared to VEPro 5 which I upgraded from. But, I have to admit that the work flow for VEPro 7 is a lot better than it was back then.


Out of curiousity, what improvements exactly did they make to the program which makes the workflow superior to v5 for example? How much time is it saving you all things considered (7.0)?

I've seen mention of 'audioGridder' before - would be amazing if an open source project would provide a compute-farm/server-networking resource for the DAW world.


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## TonalDynamics (Dec 14, 2021)

Ben said:


> No, no eLicenser required for the DAW machine. just install VEP - the plugin does not need a license or an eLicenser.


As Jett said, thanks for clearing this up Ben - from reading the language on the site it makes it seem as though I would need _two _licenses just to run a single server along with my Master machine.

Starting to look more attractive to me now.

Cheers
🍻


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 14, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> Out of curiousity, what improvements exactly did they make to the program which makes the workflow superior to v5 for example? How much time is it saving you all things considered (7.0)?


It has been a long while since I upgraded to 7, and I think I came from 5. What sold me on it were radically faster load times as I recall. It is all a bit hazy because I haven't used it in a long time. On the Mac, I found it necessary when running Cubase just for stability. That's not really an issue with Logic.


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## TonalDynamics (Dec 14, 2021)

Ben said:


> You need one license for each machine that is running one or more VEP instances (not counting the connector plugin in your DAW). So if you plan to use VEP only on the secondary machine you need one license; if you want to also host instances on the DAW machine you need two licenses.
> You can buy as many additional licenses as you want, and each additional license is much cheaper then the first one.


So let me see if I've got this straight:

With a single license, and using the program (with Teamviewer) from my 2nd machine, I will be able to access the processing power of my 2nd machine (CPU/RAM, sharing no resources with my primary machine) with the loaded plugins and instruments, and the primary machine will still be handling all processing with the loaded plugins - ie., both machines are compartmentalized and don't share resources whatsoever.

But, with the program running on both machines (2 licenses), do the two programs _speak_ to each other and decide which way to best allocate resources?

I was under the impression that VEPro had the ability to see and access _all_ the resources from each machine on the entire network, across instances, and determine how best to allocate them (thus increasing throughput in a linear fashion), but that's not how it works is it?

Since my 2nd machine is weaker, I would have to be cautious about which instruments/templates I load from it, rather than just keeping it inside my DAW - is this correct?


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## Ben (Dec 14, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> But, with the program running on both machines (2 licenses), do the two programs _speak_ to each other and decide which way to best allocate resources?


No. This is simply not possible from a techical point (unless you have enough money to get a multi-million dollers supercomputer, but then you won't be able to run Windows or MacOS on it 

You simply decide where you want to host what sample player instance (and it needs to be installed on that machine, of course). You can run the plugins on an additional computer and VEP handles MIDI and Audio transfer in your network, as well as hosting these plugins + all the latency compensation stuff.


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## José Herring (Dec 14, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> Out of curiousity, what improvements exactly did they make to the program which makes the workflow superior to v5 for example? How much time is it saving you all things considered (7.0)?
> 
> I've seen mention of 'audioGridder' before - would be amazing if an open source project would provide a compute-farm/server-networking resource for the DAW world.


Each instance of VEPro use to have its own page. Now it host all instances in one page. Also what they called the metaframe was it's own little container where it would show all your instances in text form. Now it's all in one making it easier to navigate to an instance if that makes sense. It's a little hard to explain verbally though.


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## José Herring (Dec 14, 2021)

I tried audiogridder today and it's more like the old FXteleport but less flexible. Right now it seems to be a good alternative if you have a few plugins you want to host on another machine but not yet seeing it working for larger orchestral templates.


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## TonalDynamics (Dec 14, 2021)

Ben said:


> No. This is simply not possible from a techical point (unless you have enough money to get a multi-million dollers supercomputer, but then you won't be able to run Windows or MacOS on it
> 
> You simply decide where you want to host what sample player instance (and it needs to be installed on that machine, of course). You can run the plugins on an additional computer and VEP handles MIDI and Audio transfer in your network, as well as hosting these plugins + all the latency compensation stuff.


I see, this is what I suspected was the case once I thought about it more.

The value would certainly still be there for me, because I could simply allocate my 'less' intensive Kontakt Multis to my secondary (weaker) machine, while keeping the resource-hungry multis within my DAW computer...

But you mentioned that the plugins have to be installed on the VEPro/licensed machine, and then go on to say you can run the plugins on another computer - what do you mean, exactly? In short it's impossible to load plugins from the DAW computer onto the VEPro instance on the 2nd PC, right?

I'm assuming this process could, in theory, be virtualized to some degree, thus allowing one to load VST resources/licenses from one network machine onto the VEPro machine, but likely isn't technically feasible due especially to the additional latecy this would introduce?

I have a massive plugin collection, many without additional licenses. Having to reinstall them all onto the slave machine just to utilize them in a VEPro instance would seriously limit the possibilities available to me, although I could certainly at the very least get Kontakt and some choice libraries transferred over.

Thank you again for your time!


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## TonalDynamics (Dec 14, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Each instance of VEPro use to have its own page. Now it host all instances in one page. Also what they called the metaframe was it's own little container where it would show all your instances in text form. Now it's all in one making it easier to navigate to an instance if that makes sense. It's a little hard to explain verbally though.


No I can imagine that quite well, does sound like it might be worth it speed-wise.


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## Ben (Dec 14, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> I see, this is what I suspected was the case once I thought about it more.
> 
> The value would certainly still be there for me, because I could simply allocate my 'less' intensive Kontakt Multis to my secondary (weaker) machine, while keeping the resource-hungry multis within my DAW computer...
> 
> ...


I don't think we would make many friends, if we would offer a feature that allows for easy use of plugins on as many machines as you like, without having proper licensing - even if this would be technically possible 

Think about VEP as a remote instance of your DAW - the instance has access and sees all plugins available on the machine it is running on. Your DAW sends MIDI data to the VEP instance, and gets Audio data back.


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## David Kudell (Dec 14, 2021)

I started using VEpro a couple months ago and I love it. It’s really sped up my workflow.

My only beef with it is occasionally, like once every day or two, sound just stops coming out of it, and I have to reboot everything, host and remote Mac. I need to reach out to VSL to see what’s going on there.


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## Ben (Dec 14, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> My only beef with it is occasionally, like once every day or two, sound just stops coming out of it, and I have to reboot everything, host and remote Mac. I need to reach out to VSL to see what’s going on there.


i had this issue as well 1-2 years ago. In my case it was some automation data from one of my MIDI controllers messing with some faders in VEP, or something like that (can't remember the details anymore).
It took me quite some time to troubleshoot, but once I've found what controller was causing this it was an easy fix.
It might be something similar in your case. You can try to troubleshoot it by using the on-screen keyboard in the sample players, and following the routing chain's volume display. It might also be caused by something messing with the VEP audio output in the DAW.

And in case you are using Cubase, make sure to disable ASIO Guard for all VEP plugins.


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## David Kudell (Dec 14, 2021)

Ben said:


> i had this issue as well 1-2 years ago. In my case it was some automation data from one of my MIDI controllers messing with some faders in VEP, or something like that (can't remember the details anymore).
> It took me quite some time to troubleshoot, but once I've found what controller was causing this it was an easy fix.
> It might be something similar in your case. You can try to troubleshoot it by using the on-screen keyboard in the sample players, and following the routing chain's volume display. It might also be caused by something messing with the VEP audio output in the DAW.
> 
> And in case you are using Cubase, make sure to disable ASIO Guard for all VEP plugins.


Ok I’ll look into those things and see if it’s something like that. If not I’ll reach out. Thanks Ben.


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## TonalDynamics (Dec 14, 2021)

Ben said:


> I don't think we would make many friends, if we would offer a feature that allows for easy use of plugins on as many machines as you like, without having proper licensing - even if this would be technically possible
> 
> Think about VEP as a remote instance of your DAW - the instance has access and sees all plugins available on the machine it is running on. Your DAW sends MIDI data to the VEP instance, and gets Audio data back.


Well when I said virtualized, I meant more or less the whole process, like validating license files as well.

But yes... too ambitious perhaps  (if there is such a thing?)


David Kudell said:


> I started using VEpro a couple months ago and I love it. It’s really sped up my workflow.


Yeah I'm at that stage you were at then probably, just made another massive template for Studio One, got wind of this application and suddenly imagining all that was possible...

How did you go about handling the reauthorization/reinstallation of your plugins, just mainly using it for samplers/template multis or did you go the whole 9 yards and spend loads of time getting a lot of CPU heavy plugins installed on an additional machine?

At this point it looks like I will mainly just be using it for the latter (plugin library is huge)


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## David Kudell (Dec 14, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> Well when I said virtualized, I meant more or less the whole process, like validating license files as well.
> 
> But yes... too ambitious perhaps  (if there is such a thing?)
> 
> ...


I only run sample instruments in vepro…so plugins, synths, and FX are handled in the daw itself.

I have it on an additional machine and my local machine. The other machine is a 128gb trash can Mac Pro and does strings, brass, and winds. My local machine is an iMac with 128gb as well and does choirs, perc, keys, and ensembles. I’d like to eventually move that to its own server so I don’t need to run vepro locally.


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## Henning (Dec 14, 2021)

Purchased and used VEPro since the first version when it came out about 10 years ago. Bought a new PC machine last year. Setup a completely new and much leaner template (inspired by the one Trevor Morris uses nowadays). Got rid of VEPro finally. One program less to keep updated and some sorrows less. All in Nuendo now. All good.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 15, 2021)

I tried VEPro on a single machine but found a disabled Cubase template was much easier to manage - and consumed way less CPU. Maybe if you really limit the VEP instances (like one per section - strings, brass, etc), it would consume less. Even the oft-mentioned “having samples loaded once across different projects” didn’t really apply to me because my instances were all disabled and purged so when I worked on one project, I’d still need to reload the VEP project to start a new project from a clean slate. Up for trying it again if folks have found other benefits on a single machine (maybe with a less efficient DAW like S1 it is helpful).


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## labornvain (Dec 15, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> Just came across this thread.
> 
> I'm looking to incorporate VEPro into my templates with a master/slave setup - just about to download the demo in fact.
> 
> ...


No. You just need one license to run the server on your slave machine.


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## ModalRealist (Dec 15, 2021)

I just upgraded my machine to 64GB of RAM and bought VE Pro to work with Cubase.

Wow!

What a game changer. Being able to just preserve the template is amazing. Both cubase and VE Pro/Kontakt seem to have waaaaay better performance on my 6-core/12-thread Ryzen. Way fewer pops and crackles and dropouts.

I used to regularly find Cubase would crash/seize up when handling large projects (and don’t get me started on the save time!). That’s all fine: saves happen in the blink of an eye.

For a shy over £100 this might be the best money I’ve ever spent in the VI world…!


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## cet34f (Dec 15, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I tried VEPro on a single machine but found a disabled Cubase template was much easier to manage - and consumed way less CPU. Maybe if you really limit the VEP instances (like one per section - strings, brass, etc), it would consume less. Even the oft-mentioned “having samples loaded once across different projects” didn’t really apply to me because my instances were all disabled and purged so when I worked on one project, I’d still need to reload the VEP project to start a new project from a clean slate. Up for trying it again if folks have found other benefits on a single machine (maybe with a less efficient DAW like S1 it is helpful).


Oh dear god no. People are not doing it to “have samples loaded once across different projects”. People are doing it so they don't have to put up with the ridiculous file size of the cubase project. All the autosave time combined was enough for me to find a cure for cancer.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 15, 2021)

cet34f said:


> Oh dear god no. People are not doing it to “have samples loaded once across different projects”. People are doing it so they don't have to put up with the ridiculous file size of the cubase project. All the autosave time combined was enough for me to find a cure for cancer.


Uh…my disabled track template file size is the same / lower than the VEP one (could be due to too many instances?). Autosave is instant for me. And plenty of people have said it is because they don’t need to reload their samples (works better on slave machines).


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## TonalDynamics (Dec 15, 2021)

ModalRealist said:


> I just upgraded my machine to 64GB of RAM and bought VE Pro to work with Cubase.
> 
> Wow!
> 
> ...


Hmmm, so you are using it on just a single machine, then.

I also have 64GB of RAM and that's why I was looking into running a VEP on my secondary machine, in order to access it's additional 64GB of RAM (Berlin templates with TM patches are a memory HOG)

So you're saying it allows you to keep the template open, but doesn't it still consume the exact same amount of RAM (fully-purged template I assume) ?

You're just talking about the benefits of being able to close/reopen/change to a different song while keeping the template loaded, correct?

As for the enhanced CPU performance, fascinating...

I'd be using it with Studio One, not Cubase. S1 does seem to have fairly good multi-CPU load-spreading for VST multis, but I wonder if it could help me in this regard as well.

Have you noticed any different behaviors on your CPU meter/resource monitor type software when using certain patches/multis from VEP compared to Cubase?

Cheers


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 15, 2021)

When I was running Cubase on my Mac Pro 5,1 12 core, I found it necessary to run VePro for sanity. Large templates would crash Cubase a lot. Switching to VePro really sped up my load times, and Cubase stopped crashing as frequently. Note I did not say "Cubase stopped crashing." Finally, I switched to Logic, and I no longer found it necessary to use VePro. However, now that I have started running the Berlin Mains, I am starting to use it again. It just seems to make better use of the cores. If ever the new iMac or Mac Mini Pro comes out, perhaps I can return to running everything in Logic, or I can just slave the old 5,1.


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## José Herring (Dec 15, 2021)

Henning said:


> Purchased and used VEPro since the first version when it came out about 10 years ago. Bought a new PC machine last year. Setup a completely new and much leaner template (inspired by the one Trevor Morris uses nowadays). Got rid of VEPro finally. One program less to keep updated and some sorrows less. All in Nuendo now. All good.


Did Trevor post his specs somewhere? I'd like to look it over.


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## Henning (Dec 15, 2021)

In reply to José. There's these videos (part of a series). I found all very appealing to me and I used lots of his ideas in how I setup my new template.

I don't have everything loaded into one template anymore. Only the really basic stuff I use all the time plus things that are a pain to setup everytime again (like orchestral instrument libs). The rest I load in depending on the project. I found it liberating to start a project with a basic template with every track routed to the right busses and fx. And then just to add the instruments I really like to use for the project. Here's the videos that might be of interest to you:

VEPro or Cubase:


Template:




Routing, FX, Busses


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## ModalRealist (Dec 15, 2021)

@TonalDynamics I’ve not looked at any objective measurements on the CPU load: I’ve just noticed that I don’t get pops and crackles anymore since pushing everything into VEP.

There’s not a RAM saving (or not a noticeable one). I’ve not seen an increase in RAM use either though. I’ve upgraded from 32 to 64GB because I wanted the extra legroom. I don’t personally use TMPro patches.

The killer for me is that I can boot my PC, load VEPro up while I make coffee, and then use as many Cubase projects as I want. No loading wait times.


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## José Herring (Dec 15, 2021)

Henning said:


> In reply to José. There's these videos (part of a series). I found all very appealing to me and I used lots of his ideas in how I setup my new template.
> 
> I don't have everything loaded into one template anymore. Only the really basic stuff I use all the time plus things that are a pain to setup everytime again (like orchestral instrument libs). The rest I load in depending on the project. I found it liberating to start a project with a basic template with every track routed to the right busses and fx. And then just to add the instruments I really like to use for the project. Here's the videos that might be of interest to you:
> 
> ...



Thank you. 

Very fascinating. First that he switched to PC from Mac is interesting. 

I see that he developed a hatred for PC back in the XP days running gigastudio racks which I can understand. XP was stable but it wasn't set up for audio and then putting giga on one was a nightmare. 

I think he'll find working on a PC now a much different experience. 

I'm not totally sold on his reasoning just yet but I see why he does what he does. 

I've always run two machines. For me though having to wait to load a track in Cbase would be a bit too much. 

I think I might prefer having VEPro on the same machine for orchestral samples and using the loop back network protocol. 

I do enjoy though how techie minded he is and how that relates to his musicianship. He's an extraordinary person for sure.

That being said, have you found that you can get your latencies further down by hosting everything in Cbase?


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## JohnG (Dec 15, 2021)

Hi José,

I am finding version 7 of VE Pro is much leaner, loads faster, and has a few improvements that, while not earth-shaking, make it easier to stumble through.

If, like me, you view reading manuals as a mark of failure, I like VE Pro as a program that I can set up and forget about for the most part.

You do need to remember (for multi-computer setups) to set a static IP address and all that, but once that's done, it 'just works.'

No doubt there are wonderful features I'm not using, but the basics of hosting samples -- VE Pro is magic.


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## José Herring (Dec 15, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Hi José,
> 
> I am finding version 7 of VE Pro is much leaner, loads faster, and has a few improvements that, while not earth-shaking, make it easier to stumble through.
> 
> ...


Thx John,

Yes I have it working well as well. My only complaint now is that quitting and saving VEPro takes me now 15 minutes. It works fine for me as well and my complaining is more of a personal thing in that I have to pay double for it than I use to. So I was looking for alternatives. Unfortunately haven't found any real viable solutions other than just hosting everything in Cbase which I'm not 100% sold on but actually might be a solution as I upgrade my main machine. Or just bring VEPro down to 1 license and host it on my DAW machine only.

Audiogridder in the future might be a good solution but right now I wouldn't trust it with big templates.


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## JohnG (Dec 15, 2021)

José Herring said:


> quitting and saving VEPro takes me now 15 minutes.


That's interesting. I am using it on three PCs and a Mac Pro and -- ironically -- it saves and loads much faster than I remember even v6.

I'm probably using it all wrong but I decouple (I think it's that) so that the autosave feature in DP doesn't constantly save everything. But it's possible to close everything and, if I fail to re-couple it seems I lose data from VE Pro

IDK if decoupling or something else would help or not. Probably depends on a host of attributes (get it? "host?")


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## Henning (Dec 15, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Very fascinating. First that he switched to PC from Mac is interesting.
> 
> ...


Yes, with VEP I was running with 256 ms on the main machine but that was basically 512 ms in the end. Which was a pain sometimes. I'm now on 256 ms for real which feels nice. I had this two (way back three) workstations setup with VEP for a very long time. Now I do everything on one fast 256 gb ram machine. Never looked back


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## José Herring (Dec 15, 2021)

JohnG said:


> That's interesting. I am using it on three PCs and a Mac Pro and -- ironically -- it saves and loads much faster than I remember even v6.
> 
> I'm probably using it all wrong but I decouple (I think it's that) so that the autosave feature in DP doesn't constantly save everything. But it's possible to close everything and, if I fail to re-couple it seems I lose data from VE Pro
> 
> IDK if decoupling or something else would help or not. Probably depends on a host of attributes (get it? "host?")


Yes decoupled for sure. 

I noticed that the saving and the quitting hangs for sometime before it finally finishes. I do have just one sample slave to rule them all with about 15 instances going. On my main machines i sometimes just put a few instances of VEPro on it and it saves and quits without a problem. 

Others have reported this problem too so the fact that you aren't having the same problem is interesting and I'm wondering if there is a way to improve the save times in VEPro by maybe lightening the load.


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## José Herring (Dec 15, 2021)

Henning said:


> Yes, with VEP I was running with 256 ms on the main machine but that was basically 512 ms in the end. Which was a pain sometimes. I'm now on 256 ms for real which feels nice. I had this two (way back three) workstations setup with VEP for a very long time. Now I do everything on one fast 256 gb ram machine. Never looked back


Hmmmmm..... now you have my attention. Thx. Considering this. Perhaps this year I'll finally get down to one machine. That would be fantastic.


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## JohnG (Dec 15, 2021)

José Herring said:


> with about 15 instances going


I use only a single instance on each PC. They are pretty full, but very speedy.


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## José Herring (Dec 15, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I use only a single instance on each PC. They are pretty full, but very speedy.


Yes I think that's the ticket. The unloading of some of the instances on my machine takes a long time. I could start by just reducing the number of instances and combining. I think I could get it down to just 3 or 4 instances. I'll see if that helps. Thx.


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## arafaratanran (Dec 15, 2021)

Henning said:


> Yes, with VEP I was running with 256 ms on the main machine but that was basically 512 ms in the end. Which was a pain sometimes. I'm now on 256 ms for real which feels nice. I had this two (way back three) workstations setup with VEP for a very long time. Now I do everything on one fast 256 gb ram machine. Never looked back


This all sounds very apealing! However, last time I checked, the bigger your template of disabled instrument grows, the longer your will wait for your session to save - which is something I habitually do about every two minutes. 

Which then brought me to check out a solution where only a very basic template is loaded disabled and the rest is saved as track presets. It takes a bit longer to load some tracks presets, but it is still convenient. However, the pitty is, Cubase does not remember any routings with sends and track routing (like routing to stems, instrument submixes, etc). So, you will have to set all of that up per isntrument. And - if I remember correctly - routings are not even recalled properly with disabled tracks.

All of that made me return to using VEpro. Did I miss any groundbreaking news? Are these problems of the past?


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## Henning (Dec 15, 2021)

arafaratanran said:


> This all sounds very apealing! However, last time I checked, the bigger your template of disabled instrument grows, the longer your will wait for your session to save - which is something I habitually do about every two minutes.
> 
> Which then brought me to check out a solution where only a very basic template is loaded disabled and the rest is saved as track presets. It takes a bit longer to load some tracks presets, but it is still convenient. However, the pitty is, Cubase does not remember any routings with sends and track routing (like routing to stems, instrument submixes, etc). So, you will have to set all of that up per isntrument. And - if I remember correctly - routings are not even recalled properly with disabled tracks.
> 
> All of that made me return to using VEpro. Did I miss any groundbreaking news? Are these problems of the past?


Well, I don't use track templates either. You can import single or multiple tracks from any project in Cubendo. If you have the same busses, routing, etc, going on then the tracks will be even connected the right way. I also got rid of a lot of stuff that cluttered my template and got seldom used. Save times with a completely disabled template are fractions of seconds only. Sure, when stuff gets loaded it takes a bit longer. But I had the same save times with VEP as I never used it discoupled. It's so many little clicks here and there that I'm happy to be rid of. Anyway, that's just me. Your mileage may vary.


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## arafaratanran (Dec 16, 2021)

Henning said:


> Well, I don't use track templates either. You can import single or multiple tracks from any project in Cubendo. If you have the same busses, routing, etc, going on then the tracks will be even connected the right way.


Well, that is an interesting idea! 

Just to understand what you are doing 100%: You have kind of different templates saved as separate projects - all with the same routing system of sends and stem busses. Then you just pick and import any desired channels into your project as needed (all disabled, I suppose?). Is that about right?

And with this technique you do not loose any routings? Supposing you have the FX-bus "Reverb 1" in your template project and also in your new project, the loaded instruments are all recalled with that routing? Or do you rather have to import them together with the sends they are routed to?

And regarding the time to save your project: can you make an example? I often load a ton of libraries for complex orchestral pieces. Could you give me an estimate of how many seconds it takes to save with X GB of RAM used? With my main machine, I would certainly load the 128Gb of my Mac fully in some cases. How much time would that take?


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## Henning (Dec 16, 2021)

It's basically as you say. But I'm not that organized  It's more like I have a basic template with all the busses and Fx channels I need setup that's the same for a every project. I do game music so there's loads of different styles that I have covered over the years. Let's say I have to do some medieval fantasy music. I pull up the basic project template and then add some additional sample lib stuff in that I think would be cool to have in the project. At some point I remember perhaps that I had this really nice percussion sound in another project that could fit with the new one. I click on "import track from project file" in Cubendo. It takes a while depending on the project. But then I get the nice screen with all the options of importing tracks. As the routing of my projects are the same these import with all the settings and routings intact.

It's really a mixture of a basic template, adding new tracks and importing tracks. For me it always pays off to spend some hours in giving my template the right fit for a project. It helps create "the" sound for the gig. Again, this is just how I work, your mileage may vary 

Regarding save times. I have not measured it. Perhaps 5-6 seconds in a bigger arrangement. It so depends on project length and active track count. It does not bother me. But I don't do automatic saves. With the new machine I have never had a crash, so I save every half an hour perhaps? That being said the machine has all stuff disabled I don't need. Firewall, Defender, etc. I only activate these things when I do updates for Win or libs. The machine is basically of the net 99% of the time. It's only used for music work. No video, no games, no office, etc. I have a seperate PC for all that. All this brings a certain resilience against crashes and problems.


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## Home Studio 87 (Dec 16, 2021)

No VEP came with one license for the server and after you buy other licence needed for other "sever"


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