# Berlin Strings: First Chairs - Discussion thread



## Zhao Shen (May 30, 2016)

First teaser released!



Not too much to go off of, but I'm really liking the tone (but then again I've never disliked the tone of an OT library) and I hear some things that sound fantastic, like the violins quick slurs at 0:10 (run builder?). Not a huge fan of the scripting in OT's Nocturne series so I'm looking forward to how they approach that here.


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## lucor (May 30, 2016)

Bit disappointed that there is no bass included from the looks of it. I can see why they made that decision, but still would have been nice to have.
Nevertheless, really excited for this! The rest sounds really great so far and I'm looking forward to grow my Berlin Orchestra.


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## muziksculp (May 30, 2016)

I'm very excited to see this library almost ready for release ! 

Will be getting quite a few OT libraries next month, this one will surely be one of them.

Thanks for the heads up


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## higgs (May 30, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Not a huge fan of the scripting in OT's Nocturne series so I'm looking forward to how they approach that here.


Agreed. I'm a little bit gun-shy with OT solo instruments. There's isn't much of a nice way to say that Nocturne Cello is the purchase from which I learned a lesson.


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## C-Wave (May 30, 2016)

Hope the cost won't match a library that comes with a teaser.. A first for OT?


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## mickeyl (May 30, 2016)

higgs said:


> There's isn't much of a nice way to say that Nocturne Cello is the purchase from which I learned a lesson.


Really? It gets a lot of praise elsewhere -- what are your griefs with it?


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## Jack Weaver (May 30, 2016)

I believe ARK had a teaser and it was reasonably priced.

Patiently awaiting a walk through video of First Chairs.

.


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## rottoy (May 30, 2016)

Now that sounded JUICY! Excitedly awaiting this.


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## higgs (May 30, 2016)

mickeyl said:


> Really? It gets a lot of praise elsewhere -- what are your griefs with it?


I primarily have one grief really, and it's the vibrato.

For my use, I feel the vibrato requires an egregious amount of post facto tweaking & massaging to make it sound almost convincing. And even after that, I've still gotten better and more immediately gratifying sonic results with Emotional Cello -which too has it's own limitations. Of course some of my gripe boils down to preference (and hence subjectivity), but the sound, speed, and overall control of the vibrato is a buzzkill on the sustains. In my humble opinion, it's a deal breaker for a product built on the foundation of Capsule's being "simply playable!" One other small gripe is that the time machine tremolo patch is just not responsive - some might argue that as being a big gripe, but I would guess it being not difficult to fix.


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## C-Wave (May 30, 2016)

Jack Weaver said:


> I believe ARK had a teaser and it was reasonably priced.
> 
> Patiently awaiting a walk through video of First Chairs.
> 
> .


I stand corrected.. thanks!


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## ModalRealist (May 30, 2016)

I had had no idea at all what to make of this library up until now. But listening to it now, I instantly get the concept. Notwithstanding how great they sound alone, the thought of blending these recordings over BST is pretty awesome.

And my word, those slurred quavers in the opening... yes please.


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## C-Wave (May 30, 2016)

higgs said:


> I primarily have one grief really, and it's the vibrato.
> 
> For my use, I feel the vibrato requires an egregious amount of post facto tweaking & massaging to make it sound almost convincing. And even after that, I've still gotten better and more immediately gratifying sonic results with Emotional Cello -which too has it's own limitations. Of course some of my gripe boils down to preference (and hence subjectivity), but the sound, speed, and overall control of the vibrato is a buzzkill on the sustains. In my humble opinion, it's a deal breaker for a product built on the foundation of Capsule's being "simply playable!" One other small gripe is that the time machine tremolo patch is just not responsive - some might argue that as being a big gripe, but I would guess it being not difficult to fix.


Can't say I am a good reviewer of solo libraries based on the simple fact that this was my first ever (Nocturne violin being my second) but from the little time practicing it it left me wanting more in terms of playability. Knowing OT I am sure they'll come back to it once the dust settles on the first chairs release. Hope they learn few things from the cello over there.


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## higgs (May 30, 2016)

C-Wave said:


> Can't say I am a good reviewer of solo libraries


Can't say I'm the best at reviewing either - perhaps I haven't put enough hours into the library, but I have put hours into it.


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## cadenzajon (May 30, 2016)

Help me understand... what difference should I expect between a "first chairs" sample bundle and individual soloist samples? Obviously the recording environment is different between the two, but in terms of the instruments themselves... would particular articulations likely apply to one vs. the other? Or would they choose instruments of a particular timbre? I imagine "first chairs" would be a bit closer to Spitfire Sacconi than individual soloists (as Sacconi is a wet library recorded in situ, even though their room & positioning is not chosen for overlaying perfectly on Berlin Strings...)


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## C-Wave (May 30, 2016)

Excellent question, which I think right now only OT can answer.. Here is my take on the same idea:
As a customer who just bought the soloist series violin and cello, what will I miss when using the violin and cello in the first chairs instead? Is it the vibrato? Some other articulations, or is it different timbre/tonality..? I have seen Berlin Woodwinds get their own dry versions in Exp b and c. Can't say that the Nocturne instruments were recorded dry though. Hope Tobias can chime in..thx!


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## constaneum (May 30, 2016)

First Chair is more towards the setting of an orchestra context where by they're mostly used for layering purpose or used as a soloist in an orchestra play. They're the soloist in the orchestral setup context and most likely recorded in that staged manner. Sound wise might not be that distinctive to be used as a soloist (if you want that kind of "in front of your face" kind of sound) if you're to compare it with Cinesample's Solo Strings though. Cinesamples is recorded in a First Chair manner too but at least the sound can be really that outstanding to be used as a soloist, not just first chair.


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## JohnRosso (May 30, 2016)

Is it like Sable, right?
Which is great in layering with big 30+ piece string orchestra for some pretty amazing details?
I used to use LASS for that, it's dryer sounding library, and has not-so-smooth sound, and adds a lot of charecter to the overall sound


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## ModalRealist (May 31, 2016)

It's exactly what it says on the tin: first chairs. And on the off chance that you don't know what that means, the first chair of a section is the leader of that section, and is generally responsible for setting the way in which the section will play - e.g. how the section will bow a passage.

Why record these players in their own library? A few reasons.

1. It is the first chair who will play any solo line in an orchestral work _unless_ there is a guest soloist. (A concerto is usually a guest soloist who is billed on the adverts.)

2. There's a big difference in sound between first chairs and soloists in the usual sense (of course, players can and do swap roles, but each role calls for a different sound - and ergo different samples). First chairs spend most of their time leading a bunch of other players to produce harmonious, uniform, togetherness. Soloists spend most of their time creating a sound which can leap out above a tutti orchestra. That's nothing to do its volume, and everything to do with style. Playing together demands a different approach from being on your own distinct path.

3. From a mock-up perspective, judicious use of first chair samples will let you patch a few otherwise hard-to-patch holes. For example, the tendency of section samples to sound overly blurry during fast passages (slurred or otherwise). The solution normally is to dial in the close sectional mic - but this can alter the tone colour in an undesirable way. First chair recordings - as you can hear - are easier to get sounding right on fast phrases, but still don't produce the harshness of a sectional close mic. So one can layer the first chair recording, and restore a flash of detail to the sound that's otherwise missing.

4. If you listen to orchestral string recordings, one thing that's sometimes noticeable is the way in which the se toon can "pull apart" and come back together: you can become distinctly aware that there's lots of individual players all playing in close unison (vs. the more perfect unity which generally occurs, and which most section samples capture). By blending in first chair samples at different ratios at different points, one can simulate this kind of effect. (This is one of the things that makes Dimension Strings work so well.)


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## Saxer (May 31, 2016)

Normally a leader plays more bold and self confidental to make the others follow her/his intention. Slightly more dynamic extremes and vibrato. Sometimes even a few milliseconds ahead.
In sample world the main work will be the matching of all first chair articulations to the already existing section library without any drift. Probably an incredible amount of work!
I'm really looking forward to try the result!


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## OT_Tobias (May 31, 2016)

Hi folks,

thanks for the warm reception to our teaser!

ModalRealist hit the nail on the head.
As for the difference between the First Chairs and Nocturne Series:
The Soloists Series (Woodwinds and Nocturne) provides dedicated solo instruments intended for exposed solo passages on top and leading any musical background - like a soloists standing in front of the orchestra. All Soloists are recorded dry at the Teldex Solo Booth and have a Teldex IR for placement.

The First Chairs represent the section leaders (solo players) within the orchestra. They sit in their orchestral seating positions and are intended to serve as a "string qartet" within the orchestra as well as (primarily) enhancing definition within the section. The First Chairs are recorded in the Teldex Scoring Stage and fit great together with all other "wet" Berlin Series and Metropolis Ark collections.

Nocturne Violin and Cello also have a huge number of legato styles (14 to be exact) with a large number of sustain types with baked-in expression, etc... The First Chairs are much more bare-bones and use a single legato style plus optional portamento with three sustain styles.

First Chairs and the Nocturne Series are very different. They complement each other nicely, but neither can do what the other can. And of course they do not share a single sample.

There will be plenty more info in due course (and of course very nice demos!). We did a teaser because the collection lent itself to doing one and also because it is fun to do so  by the way the music in the teaser is 100% samples. The First Chair also do not contain any pre-recorded phrases, everything is programmable. That question popped up elsewhere and I just wanted to address it.

cheers

Tobias
OT Support


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## ModalRealist (May 31, 2016)

OT_Tobias said:


> The First Chair also do not contain any pre-recorded phrases, everything is programmable.


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## Baron Greuner (May 31, 2016)

higgs said:


> I primarily have one grief really, and it's the vibrato.
> 
> but the sound, speed, and overall control of the vibrato is a buzzkill on the sustains. In my humble opinion, it's a deal breaker for a product built on the foundation of Capsule's being "simply playable!"



Yes. Vibrato is always the deal breaker. Especially when you can hear it on Spicattos. Without vibrato control that's realistic, you just wind up with a load of mush.


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## prodigalson (May 31, 2016)

any spiccato where you can hear vibrato is surely not a spiccato.


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## rottoy (Jun 1, 2016)

Any chance you guys couldn't release this sooner than June 7th?
My wallet is aching for this.


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## jamwerks (Jun 2, 2016)

Really looking forward to this! Eager for a detailed walkthrough.

Also, isn't it funny how three different developers all come out with a solo strings library at the exact same time! Options, options, options...


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## Neifion (Jun 2, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> Really looking forward to this! Eager for a detailed walkthrough.
> 
> Also, isn't it funny how three different developers all come out with a solo strings library at the exact same time! Options, options, options...



This and Sacconi, what is the third?


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## cadenzajon (Jun 2, 2016)

Neifion said:


> This and Sacconi, what is the third?


CineSamples Solo Strings


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## Neifion (Jun 2, 2016)

cadenzajon said:


> CineSamples Solo Strings



Ah, thanks!


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 2, 2016)

Neifion said:


> Ah, thanks!


And if you are a guy with patience, bohemian cello from virharmonic comes out soon.
They intend to also create a quartet in the course of this year.

Sacconi cello seems to have a limited higher range( if it wasn't already said)


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## rottoy (Jun 4, 2016)

Here's a new demo of the First Chairs by Craig Sharmat - posted on OT's Facebook page.


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## lucor (Jun 4, 2016)

Craig for sure always makes the musically most interesting demos. Sounds fantastic!


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## rottoy (Jun 5, 2016)

Is there going to be a walkthrough before or after release?


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## Zhao Shen (Jun 6, 2016)




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## Zhao Shen (Jun 6, 2016)

Finished the vid... Oh boy. Having major struggles because I think CineStrings SOLO has the edge in legato scripting (judging from the one legato patch we were able to hear in this screencast) but I really adore the tone here. If anyone from OT can do anything about it, I think many of us would really appreciate a look at all of the legato patches - it's the deciding factor in solo strings for me.


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## tack (Jun 6, 2016)

It does really sound great. Lack of contrabass is indeed a bit unfortunate though.

I just remembered that Mural comes with a leader mic position. Of course there will be plenty of bleed coming from the rest of the ensemble so you won't really get the same kind of definition. Still, when I get the opportunity later, I'm curious to give them a listen to see how they compare with this sound.


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## jamwerks (Jun 6, 2016)

Love it!

p.s. if you do another example, give us a listen to the "con sordino's" function.


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## ModalRealist (Jun 6, 2016)

I'll be very interested to see the pricing. Didn't see any vibrato controls, and only slurred and portamento legato; hopefully that might keep the price down a little bit. The tone is pretty damn nice, though.

I thought the very final example in the video, where you could see and hear the legato being applied fluidly between articulations, was really good.

Thorough walkthrough as well. Always nice to see.


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## JW (Jun 6, 2016)

Love the tone of this library. Good walk through. Way to go OT...sounds like another winner! Interested in pricing...keeping fingers crossed for a reasonable price!


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## kurtvanzo (Jun 6, 2016)

Great walkthrough, straight to what's there, thank you. Love the consistency, tone, functions, articulations. It even has port- which will probably be missing from Cinestrings solo (mike notoriously dislikes it)- Bravo!!


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## muziksculp (Jun 6, 2016)

The Berlin Strings First Chairs sound great ! 

Thanks for the walkthrough. 

Looking forward to buy this library. I think the official release date, price info, more details, will be available tomorrow (June 7th). 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Rodney Money (Jun 6, 2016)

kurtvanzo said:


> Great walkthrough, straight to what's there, thank you. Love the consistency, tone, functions, articulations. It even has port- which will probably be missing from Cinestrings solo (mike notoriously dislikes it)- Bravo!!


I believe if you strike the key hard in true legato mode you get the "port" in CineStrings Solo.


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## C-Wave (Jun 6, 2016)

Hope OT introduces (beside the time-limited introductory pricing) a Crossgrade policy with Nocturne series.. Makes people interested imho in a more reasonable bundle pricing.. Also avoids "First chairs" cannibalizing the Nocturne series.


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## playz123 (Jun 6, 2016)

C-Wave said:


> Hope OT introduces (beside the time-limited introductory pricing) a Crossgrade policy with Nocturne series.. Makes people interested imho in a more reasonable bundle pricing.. Also avoids "First chairs" cannibalizing the Nocturne series.


Guess it never hurts to ask/wish, but my feeling is that Nocturne and First Chair are very different libraries, so cross grades may not be considered. Actually, based on what I already have and have heard and comparing Nocturne cello for example with FC cello, I'm drawn more towards FC.


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## C-Wave (Jun 6, 2016)

playz123 said:


> ..Actually, based on what I already have and have heard and comparing Nocturne cello for example with FC cello, I'm drawn more towards FC.


Exactly! That was my point.. the technical aspects are very valid; the Nocturnes are a whole different creature and their existence is definitely justified alongside First Chairs, but from a purely marketing point of view many people, including me, will see the playability of FC violin and FC cello and be drawn to them more.


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## playz123 (Jun 6, 2016)

kurtvanzo said:


> Great walkthrough, straight to what's there, thank you. Love the consistency, tone, functions, articulations. It even has port- which will probably be missing from Cinestrings solo (mike notoriously dislikes it)- Bravo!!


I think the main problem with portamento in string libraries is not that it's not useful _sometimes_, but that once it's there, many composers seem to want to overuse it, and it quickly becomes annoying. I guess it's each developer's choice though as to whether to include it or not and, yes, I also heard that the CS team isn't going to be including it.


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## Zhao Shen (Jun 6, 2016)

playz123 said:


> I think the main problem with portamento in string libraries is not that it's not useful _sometimes_, but that once it's there, many composers seem to want to overuse it, and it quickly becomes annoying. I guess it's each developer's choice though as to whether to include it or not and, yes, I also heard that the CS team isn't going to be including it.


They will be including it. Mike Patti dislikes it because it definitely is overused, but I think they realized in the end that when used effectively, it's incredible, and that its omission would be a huge misstep. Whatever they leave out, competitors can take advantage of, and you can't justify leaving it out anyway just because it's used a lot. Are spiccato strings used a lot and often in contexts where another articulation would be better? Yes. But you can't just exclude it from a string library.


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## Lawson. (Jun 6, 2016)

I think those are quite possibly the best sounding orchestral solo strings I have ever heard, and this is coming from an orchestral string player. It actually SOUNDS like the real deal! There were a couple iffy transitions, but dang if that tone isn't spot-on.


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## lucor (Jun 7, 2016)

It's up! http://orchestraltools.com/libraries/bst_exp_d.php
Intro price 249€, rising to 299€ after that. Great price I think.


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## constaneum (Jun 7, 2016)

playz123 said:


> I think the main problem with portamento in string libraries is not that it's not useful _sometimes_, but that once it's there, many composers seem to want to overuse it, and it quickly becomes annoying. I guess it's each developer's choice though as to whether to include it or not and, yes, I also heard that the CS team isn't going to be including it.



Actually, Cinesample's Solo Strings sneak peek preview video did showcase the portamento feature. Try checking back the video again.


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## lucor (Jun 7, 2016)

On a side note, I just realized that we're still missing EXP C. Wonder what that might be? Maybe a library completely dedicated to runs including a new runs builder? Can't think of much else that's not inlcuded in the whole range besides that.


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## ModalRealist (Jun 7, 2016)

lucor said:


> On a side note, I just realized that we're still missing EXP C. Wonder what that might be? Maybe a library completely dedicated to runs including a new runs builder? Can't think of much else that's not inlcuded in the whole range besides that.



I might be wrong, but I think EXP C was entitled "Soloists" and then split off into their "Soloist" series.

Viz. the pricing, I think it's rather attractive, all things considered.


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## zeng (Jun 7, 2016)

Well I watched the screencast; First chair consists of 4 players but when you play more than one note (on keyboard) you are hearing more than one player right? @video he plays 4 players at the same time with more than 2 notes at the same time. So we are hearing more than 8 players. Is this still first players??


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## playz123 (Jun 7, 2016)

constaneum said:


> Actually, Cinesample's Solo Strings sneak peek preview video did showcase the portamento feature. Try checking back the video again.


I think the focal point of my post was overshadowed by the last comment I included.  I was mainly commenting on the use of portamento, and then briefly mentioned that I had also heard what kurtvanzo reported earlier. I should also have added that I also heard that it _will_ be included, but I didn't, and so others, rightly so, felt a 'correction' was necessary. I guess all I can really add in my own defense is that agreeing with some one about "hearing" something is not quite the same as stating it as a fact. Now, back to OT's First Chair.


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## playz123 (Jun 7, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> ... the pricing, I think it's rather attractive, all things considered.


I agree; I was pleasantly surprised.


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## tack (Jun 7, 2016)

zeng said:


> First chair consists of 4 players but when you play more than one note (on keyboard) you are hearing more than one player right? @video he plays 4 players at the same time with more than 2 notes at the same time. So we are hearing more than 8 players. Is this still first players??


It doesn't _really_ work like that with samples. But if you're concerned about that, treat them like real players and do a proper orchestration and you'll be fine. More or less -- ok, double stops would still involve multiple notes for a given chair, but as I said, samples don't really stack up like live recordings. As always, do what _sounds_ right.


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## cadenzajon (Jun 7, 2016)

Now for the litmus test... are the 4 performers for the First Chairs library the same performers in that position from Berlin Strings?


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## cadenzajon (Jun 7, 2016)

I'm interested to understand what support is there for the "rebow" of a particular note. Can this be done with a recorded transitions, or are recorded transitions only available from one note to another(i.e. legato)? Also, what intervals are legato transitions recorded up to? The drama of an FF octave-and-a-half leap falls apart when recorded transitions don't cover that distance and you end up with crossfading.


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## zeng (Jun 7, 2016)

tack said:


> It doesn't _really_ work like that with samples. But if you're concerned about that, treat them like real players and do a proper orchestration and you'll be fine. More or less -- ok, double stops would still involve multiple notes for a given chair, but as I said, samples don't really stack up like live recordings. As always, do what _sounds_ right.



Ok, but how many players are playing this section?


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## Studio E (Jun 7, 2016)

I don't own any OT libraries but have certainly thought about them many times. This might just have to be the first. These sound pretty amazing.


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## zeng (Jun 7, 2016)

Well, are there any other strings libraries that include portato articulation? I think only Orchestral Tools' strings libraries (Berlin Strings, Metropolis, First Chairs) have portato??


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 7, 2016)

It's a bit of a difficult thing with portato, there's kind of more than one understanding of what it means. In some libraries, the same idea is found under tenuto. VSL, EastWest and Spitfire all have them.


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## zeng (Jun 7, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> It's a bit of a difficult thing with portato, there's kind of more than one understanding of what it means. In some libraries, the same idea is found under tenuto. VSL, EastWest and Spitfire all have them.


Hey Jimmy, thanks for the answer; But I have EW Hollywood Strings and Spitfire Mural and cannot find detache or tenuto?


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## rottoy (Jun 7, 2016)

I find it disconcerting that sample libraries to this day have 
failed to include important articulations such as tortelloni, pepperoni and quattro stagioni.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 7, 2016)

zeng said:


> Hey Jimmy, thanks for the answer; But I have EW Hollywood Strings and Spitfire Mural and cannot find detache or tenuto?



You're right, there's no Tenuto in the SF string libraries - not under that name, that is. They've done it for brass. Hollywood Brass has them too. There are detache patches in Hollywood Strings, though. VSL has portato for winds mostly, and detache for strings - Appassionata has both. It's confusing.


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## prodigalson (Jun 7, 2016)

zeng said:


> Hey Jimmy, thanks for the answer; But I have EW Hollywood Strings and Spitfire Mural and cannot find detache or tenuto?



Mural labels its tenuto by time so "short 0'5" and "short 1'0" are essentially marcato and tenuto


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## zeng (Jun 7, 2016)

It is really confusing. EW HS' detache has a very harsh sound (and there is only one patch for patch for each instrument). I have only Mural 1 as it does not have tenuto or short 0'5, short 1'0. I love Metropolis' portato long and portato short sounds. So I think Orchestral Tools has the best short articulations including portato which has a very warm, smooth and realistic sound. Because of that I am considering buying first chairs.

Note: Yes I have VSL woodwinds, they include portato include, and have VSL Solo Strings and they have detache which performs not bad.


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## constaneum (Jun 7, 2016)

Base on the demos, all seem to be rather focus on using this library as First Chair (well...duh ! the library name says it all) and it's more sounding like a concerto kind of setup which is also suitable for that kind of String Quartet use. However, i wonder whether this First Chair library will be usable in the context of an stand out and prominent exposed's context as a Solo instrument in music pieces or works like Vanessa Mae, Tina Guo & etc. I know they have the Close Mic options but what do you guys personally think of using this library in such exposed context? Does it really that stand out?


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## ModalRealist (Jun 8, 2016)

constaneum said:


> Base on the demos, all seem to be rather focus on using this library as First Chair (well...duh ! the library name says it all) and it's more sounding like a concerto kind of setup which is also suitable for that kind of String Quartet use. However, i wonder whether this First Chair library will be usable in the context of an stand out and prominent exposed's context as a Solo instrument in music pieces or works like Vanessa Mae, Tina Guo & etc. I know they have the Close Mic options but what do you guys personally think of using this library in such exposed context? Does it really that stand out?



First Chairs will sound like the section leader playing a solo.

OT's Soloist series will sound like a featured guest soloist doing their virtuosic thing.

YMMV, but that's literally the playing style and recording setup in each case.


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## zeng (Jun 8, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> First Chairs will sound like the section leader playing a solo.
> 
> OT's Soloist series will sound like a featured guest soloist doing their virtuosic thing.
> 
> YMMV, but that's literally the playing style and recording setup in each case.


So if you are writing a piece with Berlin Strings, you can embed first chairs as solo players for solo parts with Berlin Strings?


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## ModalRealist (Jun 8, 2016)

zeng said:


> So if you are writing a piece with Berlin Strings, you can embed first chairs as solo players for solo parts with Berlin Strings?



Yes. The soloists in "First Chairs" are seated in the correct position within the Teldex recording hall so as to be in the first chair's position for the section recordings of BST.

In my own case [I intend to, when I buy them - I haven't yet, need paycheque] this means I can use them (a) to add detail to the BST recordings, i.e. layer them in on top of the BST lines, and (b) to use them as distinct soloists that can segue in and out of a recording with the BST strings (i.e. allowing them to play independent lines against or in response to the lines assigned to the main BST recordings).


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## jamwerks (Jun 8, 2016)

constaneum said:


> I know they have the Close Mic options but what do you guys personally think of using this library in such exposed context? Does it really that stand out?


Can be used either as exposed soloists, or layered over sections imo...


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## TintoL (Jun 8, 2016)

Does someone knows if the vibrato is build in into the samples or is it controllable? 
The tone of this library is incredible, just unlike any vst I've heard. 
I don't know how berlin strings works, I don't own it. That's why I ask the vibrato controll.

Thanks to whom might answer my question.


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## tack (Jun 8, 2016)

TintoL said:


> Does someone knows if the vibrato is build in into the samples or is it controllable?


Vibrato is baked.


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## Lawson. (Jun 8, 2016)

TintoL said:


> Does someone knows if the vibrato is build in into the samples or is it controllable?
> The tone of this library is incredible, just unlike any vst I've heard.
> I don't know how berlin strings works, I don't own it. That's why I ask the vibrato controll.
> 
> Thanks to whom might answer my question.



Vibrato is baked in the samples. However, in Berlin Strings, you can set up custom CAPSULE patches allowing you to crossfade between the different sustains, resulting in controllable vibrato. I don't think First Chairs has multiple vibrato sustain types, though.


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## TintoL (Jun 8, 2016)

tack said:


> Vibrato is baked.


Thanks Tack. I guess for the legato to be stable is better to have it baked. 

Even so, the tone is so unreal that the library is worth every coin they are asking for it.

thanks again.


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## TintoL (Jun 8, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> Vibrato is baked in the samples. However, in Berlin Strings, you can set up custom CAPSULE patches allowing you to crossfade between the different sustains, resulting in controllable vibrato. I don't think First Chairs has multiple vibrato sustain types, though.



Thanks Lawson,

It didn't cross to my mind that capsule will allowed you to connect different articulations like vsl. That is a plus. But, If I understand correctly, I think even the sustains will have vibrato baked in and with no different levels of vibrato to recreate that vibrato control.


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## zeng (Jun 8, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> Yes. The soloists in "First Chairs" are seated in the correct position within the Teldex recording hall so as to be in the first chair's position for the section recordings of BST.
> 
> In my own case [I intend to, when I buy them - I haven't yet, need paycheque] this means I can use them (a) to add detail to the BST recordings, i.e. layer them in on top of the BST lines, and (b) to use them as distinct soloists that can segue in and out of a recording with the BST strings (i.e. allowing them to play independent lines against or in response to the lines assigned to the main BST recordings).


Well, can I use this group for example with Hollywood Strings? Or do I need Berlin Strings for best mixing? What do you think?


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## Lawson. (Jun 8, 2016)

TintoL said:


> Thanks Lawson,
> 
> It didn't cross to my mind that capsule will allowed you to connect different articulations like vsl. That is a plus. But, If I understand correctly, I think even the sustains will have vibrato baked in and with no different levels of vibrato to recreate that vibrato control.



You're welcome! There are actually three different vibrato levels for the normal sustains; none, romantic, and strong. You can crossfade between all 3 to allow for a smooth transition from senza vibrato to motto vibrato.




zeng said:


> Well, can I use this group for example with Hollywood Strings? Or do I need Berlin Strings for best mixing? What do you think?



You can use it with whatever you want! Berlin Strings will of course match it the best, as it was recorded in the same place by the same people, but just by adding some reverb to HS and maybe doing a bit of panning, you should be fine.


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## procreative (Jun 8, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> You're welcome! There are actually three different vibrato levels for the normal sustains; none, romantic, and strong. You can crossfade between all 3 to allow for a smooth transition from senza vibrato to motto vibrato.



Just to be clear you are talking about Berlin Strings whereas unless I am mistaken the question was about First Chairs?

This only has one style of vibrato from what I can see, which I think is a mistake. I think Solo Strings really need a selection of vibrato styles, I can see they attempted this with their Soloist series, but maybe here it was a budget consideration to leave it at one style.

If it were up to me I would want a progressive vibrato and a motto vibrato as well as maybe a non-vibrato for the sustains. Then we could use their Capsule to add the legato transitions.


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## Lawson. (Jun 8, 2016)

procreative said:


> Just to be clear you are talking about Berlin Strings whereas unless I am mistaken the question was about First Chairs?
> 
> This only has one style of vibrato from what I can see, which I think is a mistake. I think Solo Strings really need a selection of vibrato styles, I can see they attempted this with their Soloist series, but maybe here it was a budget consideration to leave it at one style.
> 
> If it were up to me I would want a progressive vibrato and a motto vibrato as well as maybe a non-vibrato for the sustains. Then we could use their Capsule to add the legato transitions.



Yes, I was talking about Berlin Strings.

I think it would be nice to have multiple vibrato styles, but for first chair soloists, I feel like it's a bit impractical. Most orchestral solos are all mf-f playing with pretty strong vibrato.


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## FriFlo (Jun 8, 2016)

To be clear, what one could expect from a controllable non Vib to Vib:
For ensemble sounds like a violin section, you can get proper results by cross fading. Proper means acceptable, because you can never actually get the sound of the actual players doing that, as they don't cross fade(the same is true for cross fading dynamics)!  
But you will come close to the actual thing, probably, because it's a section and that blurs the transition also in a kind of similar way (sometimes less so with world class players).
But solo instruments are a different animal in that regard. Even the cross fading of those dynamics is quickly sounding like two players. You have to consider, that the library is called first chairs for a reason. The primary objective is layering with full strings to sculpt the sound. For that purpose, cross fading non Vib to Vib could possibly work (if there were non Vib sustains). But, regarding cross fades for string quartet or other chamber ensembles: forget about that! It sounds terrible! All solo instruments that offer it sound not real at all, with the exception of those following the sample modeling philosophy. There, the vibrato is artificially applied to a non Vib sample (modeled). That is the only convincing way to really blend in vibrato for solo instruments. You get the full control over vibrato at the price of not having an actual recorded sample of the players vibrato, which may sound better ... So, guys, if you ask for a feature like that, know what kind of library you are asking it from! If you are saying, a non Vib sustain would have been a nice addition, that is one thing. With capsule you could than create your cross fade patch yourself. But that would not mean, you could use that cross fade for a soloistic performance and expect that to sound anywhere like the real thing.


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## cadenzajon (Jun 8, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> To be clear, what one could expect from a controllable non Vib to Vib:
> But, regarding cross fades for string quartet or other chamber ensembles: forget about that! It sounds terrible!



How do you explain the vibrato control in Spitfire's Sacconi solo instruments? That sounds pretty natural in their walkthrough and it's certainly all sampled, not modeled.


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## FriFlo (Jun 8, 2016)

If you would own the product, you would know it is not a real cross fade, but more like switch. When the controller crosses the mid point, you get a very fast cross fade from non Vib to Vib, so, yes, in a way it is a cross fade, but it does not mean, you can simulate the vibrato of a player wth this. You can only switch on vibrato a little later without that switching being to obvious.


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## procreative (Jun 8, 2016)

I agree completely about crossfaded vibrato, however if you are to stick to recorded vibrato then surely at least 3 options are needed (like they did with the main Berlin titles).


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## DocMidi657 (Jun 8, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> If you would own the product, you would know it is not a real cross fade, but more like switch. When the controller crosses the mid point, you get a very fast cross fade from non Vib to Vib, so, yes, in a way it is a cross fade, but it does not mean, you can simulate the vibrato of a player wth this. You can only switch on vibrato a little later without that switching being to obvious.


yes it's like turning on the Leslie!


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## TintoL (Jun 8, 2016)

Well, just to be clear, it wasn't my intention to bring a point just to hijack the OT product. I think the tone of this library is second to none, even at comparing the cinesamples coming string quartet.

My intention with the vibrato control was not to crossfade at all. That, I agree with FriFlo doesn't work. My experience with VSL and Lass confirms that. In vsl you simply add a non vibrato sample to one cell then vibrato or vibrato progressive to another cell and then cross fade. You can do it, but, it simply sounds like switching abruptly between two samples. It sounds terrible. I don't use it.

But, I find having a non vibrato sample and a progressive vibrato to be important if you don't want to get your ear tired of hearing in a long passage the same vibrato. But, I guess the round robins will help a bit.

I really don't care about the crossfade. I didn't see any "non vibrato articulations" so I can interchange non vibrato notes with vibrato notes so it doesn't sound repetitive. That's my concern. Cinesamples solo strings will have the same issue, unless they are truly adding a non vibrato articulation. Spitfire is there too, but the tone is not what I see playing small parts on a full orchestral piece (which is what I am looking for)

I think I would end up getting this library, because after struggling so much with VSL, I think having this tone is more than what I could ask.


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## Lee Blaske (Jun 8, 2016)

Bought it and installed it this morning. I'm really loving the sound. The OT folks outdid themselves on this one. It's quite a different animal from the Nocturne products, which I also have and like. Lots of possibilities with CAPSULE, and I can tell I've just barely scratched the surface. Here's a little piece I put together while familiarizing myself with the library...

https://www.reverbnation.com/leeblaske/song/26074331-frolic-for-strings


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## 5Lives (Jun 8, 2016)

Lee Blaske said:


> Bought it and installed it this morning. I'm really loving the sound. The OT folks outdid themselves on this one. It's quite a different animal from the Nocturne products, which I also have and like. Lots of possibilities with CAPSULE, and I can tell I've just barely scratched the surface. Here's a little piece I put together while familiarizing myself with the library...
> 
> https://www.reverbnation.com/leeblaske/song/26074331-frolic-for-strings



Nice piece! If I may ask, how is it different from the Nocturne products?

Loving the tone of this compared to the other recent solo strings / quartet releases - and a decent price too!


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## jamwerks (Jun 9, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> ...All solo instruments that offer it sound not real at all, with the exception of those following the sample modeling philosophy...


Further on this subject (not that I'm an expert), but I believe there is also the "phase-alignment" method that Chris Hein (iinm) and maybe others use. Seems you have to take out the "noise" (attack, artifacts, etc.), align the samples, then you can crossfade without it sounding like two instruments. At some point also, the original "noise" is added back in. All that does (imo) alter slightly the sound.

Another way is to have multiple legato performances, each with more or less vibrato, and you choose which one you want, on the fly. That (imo) is probably where all the developers are headed...


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## rocking.xmas.man (Jun 9, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> Further on this subject (not that I'm an expert), but I believe there is also the "phase-alignment" method that Chris Hein (iinm) and maybe others use. Seems you have to take out the "noise" (attack, artifacts, etc.), align the samples, then you can crossfade without it sounding like two instruments. At some point also, the original "noise" is added back in. All that does (imo) alter slightly the sound.


this works well with different dynamics and everything that crossfades between two or more layers of the same pitch (chris invented that tec for dynamic crossfading without phasing). as soon as there is vibrato there are different pichtes - fading between different pitches is probably never going to work without making both pitches noticable at the same time. ...unless the fade is really short - like a switch.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 9, 2016)

I'd like non-vibrato samples. It's my only real complaint about LASS FC. They don't have to cross fade, just be there as an option.


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## procreative (Jun 9, 2016)

Here is my problem with only 1 baked in vibrato. If it is immediate vibrato, with a Legato performance it will sound very odd as no player can connect all the notes with vibrato. Thus why the libraries using a lovely lyrical vibrato sound so great playing slow romantic lines but terrible once they speed up.

A minimum 3 vibrato options for realism I think.


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## Fer (Jun 9, 2016)

Hi!, i didnt find any info on the OT site about the dynamic layers of these beutiful strings and all the demos tends to sound towards the forte side... so im wondering how the library sounds when exposed in the pianisimo territory...
Anyway in the walkthrough i can see that at least in the I violin legato patch there are p, mf and ff... anybody of you who has actually the library could confirm if im right? Also, do you know if they are real layers or if they are generated by some kind of filters? and if they are real how well they crossfade? Thanks!


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## cadenzajon (Jun 9, 2016)

I would really love to hear some examples of more lyrical melody and accompaniment lines with this library as well. The demos keep coming, which is great, but this is what I'm particularly looking for and it would be helpful to have more of a sense of what FC can offer.


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## TintoL (Jun 9, 2016)

I agree that there is a need for demos with more lyrical lines. The Benny Oschmann "investigation montage" demo sounds incredible. It has the tone and even the fast arpeggios towards the end sound great. Even thought it has only one vibrato, I don't notice any repetitive sound. But, it could be that most demos are on the fast, medium fast style. I hope there is a slow piece coming so we can judge better. But for sure, they really nailed the tone and sound.


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## tack (Jun 9, 2016)

procreative said:


> A minimum 3 vibrato options for realism I think.


Still playing with it, but at first blush, with First Chairs there seem to be two types of vibrato. There are 3 sustain types: soft, immediate, and attack. (These work with legato too of course.) The soft and immediate sustains have different attacks but sound to have the same vibrato, which is pretty average, and there is a progression from nonvib to vib.

The attack sustain type sounds molto vibrato, and it there is no progression. There's a harsh attack and straight into vibrato. Although it does gradually ease back off and resolve into about the same level of vibrato as the others.

So there is at least _some_ choice with vibrato in FC.


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## Lee Blaske (Jun 9, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Nice piece! If I may ask, how is it different from the Nocturne products?
> 
> Loving the tone of this compared to the other recent solo strings / quartet releases - and a decent price too!



Nocturne seems designed more for for solo playing. It's a bigger jigsaw puzzle of components and has a higher learning curve. FC is a lot more straightforward. I don't think it's right for everything, but it really has that wonderful, joyous, forward sound. When you need that sound, it's going to deliver the goods. If I needed something more introspective and brooding, I'd turn to other tools.


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## milesito (Jun 9, 2016)

Lee Blaske said:


> Bought it and installed it this morning. I'm really loving the sound. The OT folks outdid themselves on this one. It's quite a different animal from the Nocturne products, which I also have and like. Lots of possibilities with CAPSULE, and I can tell I've just barely scratched the surface. Here's a little piece I put together while familiarizing myself with the library...
> 
> https://www.reverbnation.com/leeblaske/song/26074331-frolic-for-strings


Nice piece. Did you have to key switch for anything other than the pizzacatos or did you simply play it directly in?


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## Lee Blaske (Jun 9, 2016)

milesito said:


> Nice piece. Did you have to key switch for anything other than the pizzacatos or did you simply play it directly in?



I did a fair amount of key switching.


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## TintoL (Jun 9, 2016)

Lee, that was a great piece. I was expecting key switching. I find almost impossible to do a line without doing it.
Tack, thanks so much for sharing your views.

I wanted to ask you both if you could please share your views on how you think it behaves playing slow lyric lines, fast lines and runs? Do you think it's flexible enough to do those well?
Tack, do you think you notice the lack of vibrato articulations? or you think that switching between the sustains and legato is enough to give life to the instruments?


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## tack (Jun 9, 2016)

TintoL said:


> Tack, do you think you notice the lack of vibrato articulations? or you think that switching between the sustains and legato is enough to give life to the instruments?


I haven't used it enough to be able to say one way or the other. In a blending context I think what's there would be fine. You might notice the lack of nonvib if you were going for a specific sound, but then this is the standard challenge with samples. I need more time to form a better opinion. At this point I only have about an hour of time clocked with FC just tinkering.

I should underline that the legato patch allows you trigger all three attack types by velocity, including portamento at the highest velocity. So you can achieve all the vibrato control that is possible from the legato patch.


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## TintoL (Jun 9, 2016)

tack said:


> I haven't used it enough to be able to say one way or the other. In a blending context I think what's there would be fine. You might notice the lack of nonvib if you were going for a specific sound, but then this is the standard challenge with samples. I need more time to form a better opinion. At this point I only have about an hour of time clocked with FC just tinkering.
> 
> I should underline that the legato patch allows you trigger all three attack types by velocity, including portamento at the highest velocity. So you can achieve all the vibrato control that is possible from the legato patch.



Thanks so much tack. The fact that the legato patch allows you to switch all those is a great thing. But, having to do a portamento to get a full vibrato is something I am not sure is a good thing. 
At the other hand, after what you said about the different vibrato options, I checked again the walk through video and heard that the sustains have already a slight level or vibrato and each dynamic has a different amount of vibrato. Switching to a sustain, portato long or/ then to a legato should be enough to break that limitation with the vibrato. 
I think I am practically sold with this library. It just has a perfect tone.


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## tack (Jun 9, 2016)

TintoL said:


> But, having to do a portamento to get a full vibrato is something I am not sure is a good thing.


Sorry to have given that impression, but don't worry, that's not the case. Portamento is triggered by the highest velocity, but IIRC the vibrato level is the same as the soft attack. In the legato patch, the hard attack (which produces molto vibrato initially) is triggered by a velocity zone below the portamento zone. (For my brain this is backwards: portamento should be triggered by the softest velocity zone, not the hardest, but anyway, there it is.)


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## TintoL (Jun 9, 2016)

tack said:


> Portamento is triggered by the highest velocity, but IIRC the vibrato level is the same as the soft attack. In the legato patch, the hard attack (which produces molto vibrato initially) is triggered by a velocity zone below the portamento zone. (For my brain this is backwards: portamento should be triggered by the softest velocity zone, not the hardest, but anyway, there it is.)



That's great. That means the vibrato is separated from the portamento. I also think backwards. I am probably used to LASS. 

Thanks yet again.


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## procreative (Jun 9, 2016)

I think 3 things make this the (current) winner over Sacconi:

1. Legato transitions on any articulation
2. The 3 sustain attacks
3. The Portato articulations

For use with an orchestra or to create a divisi type effect with a larger ensemble library its a winner. Its possible Sacconi edges it for an authentic Chamber piece.

Finally the price difference. Its roughly 65% of Sacconi and for me as an occasional Solo string user that makes it less of a head scratcher. I listened again to the walkthroughs and although Sacconi has more articulations I feel for its uses they are not major losses.


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## prodigalson (Jun 9, 2016)

procreative said:


> I think 3 things make this the (current) winner over Sacconi:
> 
> 1. Legato transitions on any articulation
> 2. The 3 sustain attacks
> ...



True...

On the other hand, Sacconi has user-controllable vibrato, harmonics, bartok pizz, col legno and measured as well as unmeasured tremolo, six mic positions and two different stereo mixes.


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## prodigalson (Jun 9, 2016)

oh, and Sacconi also has a marcato attack sustain and a flautando sustain.


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## TintoL (Jun 9, 2016)

Even so sacconi has all those articulations, it doesn't have the most important thing "the tone", and this one has it. Sacconi sounds very nasal, it reminds me a lot of vsl solo strings.


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## prodigalson (Jun 9, 2016)

TintoL said:


> Even so sacconi has all those articulations, it doesn't have the most important thing "the tone", and this one has it. Sacconi sounds very nasal, it reminds me a lot of vsl solo strings.



Sure, that's a totally valid (though subjective) opinion. I was just addressing procreatives declaration of a winner.


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## zeng (Jun 9, 2016)

And here it is; Sacconi Quartet (viola and 2nd violin added): http://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/sacconi-strings-quartet/

But still no portamento! And I loved the sound of OT First Chairs' Portato which is also missing @Sacconi Quartet...

I've 1st violins + Cellos of Sacconi. If I upgrade to Quartet I've to pay *209€*

If I buy OT First Chair I have to pay *249€*

I don't want to leave Sacconi with 2 missing instruments (which will not be a Quartet), but I loved OT First Chairs' sound and portato articulation...

And I can't decide, what do you think?


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## mickeyl (Jun 9, 2016)

You want both! Can never have enough (different) solo string tones...


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## zeng (Jun 9, 2016)

mickeyl said:


> You want both! Can never have enough (different) solo string tones...



Well, yes...I agree on having alternatives & different tones of (any) library.

But why Sacconi Quartet is 560€ vs OT First Chairs 299€?? (without discounts)


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## mickeyl (Jun 10, 2016)

zeng said:


> Well, yes...I agree on having alternatives & different tones of (any) library.
> 
> But why Sacconi Quartet is 560€ vs OT First Chairs 299€?? (without discounts)



Because it's Apples vs Oranges. Pricing is a complex process, so many factors are taken into account, positioning against the competition is just a minor one among them, I guess.


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## reutunes (Jun 10, 2016)

I really enjoyed testing out this library for The Samplecast - you can see my review here (begins at 8:23). Overall I was very impressed, despite a few odd sounding samples and some tuning / noise issues. That said, I am notoriously fussy about things like that - See what you think...


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## procreative (Jun 10, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> True...
> 
> On the other hand, Sacconi has user-controllable vibrato, harmonics, bartok pizz, col legno and measured as well as unmeasured tremolo, six mic positions and two different stereo mixes.



Yes that is a valid point, I figured that Sacconi has:

Harmonics
Flautando
Measured Tremolo
Marcato
Bartok Pizzicato
Col Legno

I would only miss the first three, I am not using Bartok and Col Legno much. However the Portato attics are nice and the Sustain/Legato has an Accented version which is note far off a Marcato. Plus it has the option to add Legato transitions to each articulation.

The cost difference is not to be sniffed at either. I expect having to spread access to Wigmore Hall over a long period impacted production costs. Ultimately they are for slightly different aims and thus the tone is slightly different.


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## Dirk Ehlert (Jun 10, 2016)

For anyone interested, I fumbled through the lib in the stream immediately after the dl finished, so that's a pretty raw "hands on" ... might be good to actually see what's inside 

 

Cheers
Dirk


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 10, 2016)

de_signs said:


> For anyone interested, I fumbled through the lib in the stream immediately after the dl finished, so that's a pretty raw "hands on" ... might be good to actually see what's inside



Very useful, thanks!


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## TintoL (Jun 10, 2016)

Well, after hearing all this user's demos, I no longer know what to think. In the walk through video, the tone is totally different from the video that was created by Thorsten meyer in the sacconi string discussion thread. 
Prodigalson, I totally agree that there is no comparison regarding the amount of articulations in sacconi. For me, after owning VSL solo strings, and having a mega pletora of articulations and fighting for ever with eq to get a tone, puts the weight on my must have features "the tone". But now, I am not sure. I guess I rather wait for cinestrings solo, and if I end up liking Berlin first chairs more, then I rather pay the full price than rush it.

Another thing that Meyer's video showed is that the sound of the first chairs in lyrical slow lines is not strong enough unless you use it to double a full string part. The last version he showed doubling the lines with sacconi, first chairs and ark's strings is incredible. Sounds like the real thing. But again, isolated.... it doesn't seems to be there. And the OT guys said it, it's meant to be a body and detail magnifier for a string section.


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## zeng (Jun 10, 2016)

TintoL said:


> Well, after hearing all this user's demos, I no longer know what to think. In the walk through video, the tone is totally different from the video that was created by Thorsten meyer in the sacconi string discussion thread.
> Prodigalson, I totally agree that there is no comparison regarding the amount of articulations in sacconi. For me, after owning VSL solo strings, and having a mega pletora of articulations and fighting for ever with eq to get a tone, puts the weight on my must have features "the tone". But now, I am not sure. I guess I rather wait for cinestrings solo, and if I end up liking Berlin first chairs more, then I rather pay the full price than rush it.
> 
> Another thing that Meyer's video showed is that the sound of the first chairs in lyrical slow lines is not strong enough unless you use it to double a full string part. The last version he showed doubling the lines with sacconi, first chairs and ark's strings is incredible. Sounds like the real thing. But again, isolated.... it doesn't seems to be there. And the OT guys said it, it's meant to be a body and detail magnifier for a string section.



What do you think about Sacconi Tintol? If you were me would you buy Violin II and Viola (I have Violin 1 and Cello).


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## TintoL (Jun 10, 2016)

zeng said:


> What do you think about Sacconi Tintol? If you were me would you buy Violin II and Viola (I have Violin 1 and Cello).



Well, Zeng, that is a tough one. I have been reading all these threads of quartets vst's for a long time... months... Because I want to move away from the dry samples in strings. I find that for some reason, dry samples are good for woodwinds, but, for strings.... it just doesn't work IMHO. (At least for the ear training I have. I don't have the ear of an audio engineering and I don't want to be re-creating a tone with eq. That's the feature I want out of the box)

If I were in your position, I wouldn't buy it. My reasons:

I used to be very impulsive at buying new vsts. The reason is that you get caught up with the demos which sound great. But, when you start using it you find out that you need to do a lot of work . I know a vst is an instrument and you have to learn it, but some take more time to get to a final product or have missing stuff that you then find out you would use a lot.

Then you have the introduction discounts marketing tool. So you get in this online "AMAZON" like buying pressure.
I have quite a few vsts that I don't use and I can not sell. I don't like expending money in stuff I don't use.

The only thing I can tell you is: don't buy because it's on sell. It's going to be on sell again.

Spitfire said so much stuff about coming fixes for solo strings (the first one) and those promised things are not there yet. (By the way spitfire is probably the best one at getting fixes and updates done. The story is worst on other developers)
Now in sacconi's, is the missing portamento articulation the promised update. I know portamento is over done, but it's still one of the most important articulations. Use it in one single note on a passage and that's is enough to make a difference.

You already have the two most important instruments: the violin and cello that's enough for color, and give body to a line. Unless you want to do a quartet piece. My point is that cinestrings might be the one or better, I don't know. I will not buy anymore until I feel that I will miss it because I will be using it a lot.

By the way, I am not a proffesional on this. I don't earn my life doing this. So it's just my humble opinion.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jun 10, 2016)

I have both Spitfire's Sacconi Strings Quartet and the Berlin Strings First Chairs. I am very happy with both products and would buy them again as well recommend both.


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## zeng (Jun 10, 2016)

TintoL said:


> Well, Zeng, that is a tough one. I have been reading all these threads of quartets vst's for a long time... months... Because I want to move away from the dry samples in strings. I find that for some reason, dry samples are good for woodwinds, but, for strings.... it just doesn't work IMHO. (At least for the ear training I have. I don't have the ear of an audio engineering and I don't want to be re-creating a tone with eq. That's the feature I want out of the box)
> 
> If I were in your position, I wouldn't buy it. My reasons:
> 
> ...



Thank you Tintol. Nice points. I'll think on Sacconi, Berlin and Cine Solos...


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## 5Lives (Jun 10, 2016)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> I have both Spitfire's Sacconi Strings Quartet and the Berlin Strings First Chairs. I am very happy with both products and would buy them again as well recommend both.



Any particular pros / cons to each of them that you've found? Both of them seem to have very nice tones. Sacconi has more articulations, but is also much more expensive (and I personally don't use some of the more exotic articulations). For First Chairs, on some of the examples here, it seems like some of the sustains have a rebow baked in? The vibrato is less controllable it seems as well?


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jun 12, 2016)

As requested a combination with 8Dio Agitato

8Dio Agitato
ProjectSam Lumina
Berlin Strings: First Chairs
Spitfire Sacconi
Metropolis Ark 1

I did use the midi file that was shared by 8Dio (http://8dio.com/#blog/orchestrating-with-agitato/) and mixed in the Berlin Strings: First Chairs as well as Spitfire Sacconi in combination with 8Dio Agitato, ProjectSam Lumina and Metropolis Ark 1.

Please keep in mind that the midi which was careful done for 8Dio Agitato and used key switching which I removed or the other libraries. This means that the other strings could sound better if more time is spend.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jun 13, 2016)

Got some request to blend in LASS.

Berlin Strings First Chairs AND SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET in combination with LASS, 8Dio agitato




Berlin Strings First Chairs
SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET
LASS Lite 2
8dio agitato
8Dio AGE
Berlin Strings Metropolis Ark 1

First run through with out additional reverb, second run through I used Altiverb . No other EQ or compressor applied in the box (cubase)


Patches used:
*8Dio Grandiose Violins Ens
8Dio Grandiose Violins Div
8Dio Grandiose Violas Ens
8Dio Grandiose Cellos Ens*
LASS Basses
8Dio AGE Piano
8Dio Harp
Berlin Strings Metropolis Ark 1 French Horns
8Dio Chimes
8Dio Cymbals
*Spitfire SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET Violin 1
Spitfire SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET Violin 2
Spitfire SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET Viola
Spitfire SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET Cello
Berlin Strings First Chairs FC Violin 1
Berlin Strings First Chairs FC Violin 2
Berlin Strings First Chairs FC Viola
Berlin Strings First Chairs FC Celle
LASS Vlns Full Leg Sus
LASS Vlns II Full Leg Sus 
LASS Vlas Full Leg Sus 
LASS Cellos Full Leg Sus
LASS Basses Full Leg *

Part One:
*8Dio Grandiose Violins Ens
8Dio Grandiose Violins Div
8Dio Grandiose Violas Ens
8Dio Grandiose Cellos Ens*
LASS Basses
8Dio AGE Piano
8Dio Harp
Berlin Strings Metropolis Ark 1 French Horns
8Dio Chimes
8Dio Cymbals
*Spitfire SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET Violin 1
Spitfire SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET Violin 2
Spitfire SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET Viola
Spitfire SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET Cello*

Part Two:
*8Dio Grandiose Violins Ens
8Dio Grandiose Violins Div
8Dio Grandiose Violas Ens
8Dio Grandiose Cellos Ens*
LASS Basses
8Dio AGE Piano
8Dio Harp
Berlin Strings Metropolis Ark 1 French Horns
8Dio Chimes
8Dio Cymbals
*Berlin Strings First Chairs FC Violin 1
Berlin Strings First Chairs FC Violin 2
Berlin Strings First Chairs FC Viola
Berlin Strings First Chairs FC Celle*


Part Three:
8Dio AGE Piano
8Dio Harp
Berlin Strings Metropolis Ark 1 French Horns
8Dio Chimes
8Dio Cymbals
*Berlin Strings First Chairs FC Violin 1
Berlin Strings First Chairs FC Violin 2
Berlin Strings First Chairs FC Viola
Berlin Strings First Chairs FC Celle
LASS Vlns Full Leg Sus
LASS Vlns II Full Leg Sus 
LASS Vlas Full Leg Sus 
LASS Cellos Full Leg Sus
LASS Basses Full Leg *

Part four:
8Dio AGE Piano
8Dio Harp
Berlin Strings Metropolis Ark 1 French Horns
8Dio Chimes
8Dio Cymbals
*Spitfire SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET Violin 1
Spitfire SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET Violin 2
Spitfire SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET Viola
Spitfire SACCONI STRINGS - QUARTET Cello
LASS Vlns Full Leg Sus
LASS Vlns II Full Leg Sus 
LASS Vlas Full Leg Sus 
LASS Cellos Full Leg Sus
LASS Basses Full Leg*


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## danielb (Jun 13, 2016)

HEllo all, i just bought first chair, and i have a loading time problem:
even if i did a batch resave the multi are loading in not less then 3 minutes !!! loading projects with multiple instruments is a pain, almost 10 minutes !!! 
i have a ssd only laptop so no slow harddrive & it's surprising since i have also metropolis ark and it loads in 1sec max !

Do you guys know what i should do, some tricks on kontakt ? thanks in advance...


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jun 13, 2016)

danielb said:


> HEllo all, i just bought first chair, and i have a loading time problem:
> even if i did a batch resave the multi are loading in not less then 3 minutes !!! loading projects with multiple instruments is a pain, almost 10 minutes !!!
> i have a ssd only laptop so no slow harddrive & it's surprising since i have also metropolis ark and it loads in 1sec max !
> 
> Do you guys know what i should do, some tricks on kontakt ? thanks in advance...



Try first a batch re-save which you find at the top of Kontakt under "Files". Click on "Batch re-save" and select the folder where FC is installed.


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## danielb (Jun 13, 2016)

Hello & thanks Thorsten ! the support answerd me :
re-extract the instruments zip file (there is only one) and do another batch resave.
Make sure you do the Batch Resave in the standalone version of Kontakt, not the plugin

when i did the batch resave in the plug in it didn't work bu the batch resave in the standalone version of kontakt solved the problem !!! thanks & hope that helps other people...


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## constaneum (Jun 13, 2016)

ahhh !! Never knew that batch resave needs to be done on the standalone version of kontakt and not in the plugin. No wonder my Nocturne series still load up pretty damn slow. Thanks for the tips !


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jun 13, 2016)

I always batch re-save every Kontakt Library I add. Of course to be on the save side in stand alone Kontakt player.


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## danielb (Jun 13, 2016)

did it work also for you ? great


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## OT_Tobias (Jun 13, 2016)

It is indeed best to do a Batch Resave in standalone Kontakt. I will add this to our documentation next week with the next Helpdesk update.


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## muk (Jun 13, 2016)

Could somebody please check if the close mics on violin 1 are roughly 3db to 3.5db quieter than on violin 2? I assume it is on my setup only, but I went through all Kontakt and Cubase settings and couldn't find a culprit. Also, the volume of the ambient mics are at approximately the same volume for violin 1 and 2. Odd.


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## fratveno (Jun 13, 2016)

OT_Tobias said:


> It is indeed best to do a Batch Resave in standalone Kontakt. I will add this to our documentation next week with the next Helpdesk update.



Also, on Windows, BR may not have any effect until you disable real-time protection (or explicitly allow relevant file extensions) in Windows Defender ...


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## muk (Jun 14, 2016)

Sorry to ask again. Could somebody please check quickly whether the sound level of the close mics is 3db less on Vl 1 than Vl 2?


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jun 14, 2016)

muk said:


> Sorry to ask again. Could somebody please check quickly whether the sound level of the close mics is 3db less on Vl 1 than Vl 2?


Will do that, I have time in 2 hours or so


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## muk (Jun 14, 2016)

Thank you Thorsten.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jun 14, 2016)

ok here you go muk


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## playz123 (Jun 14, 2016)

OT_Tobias said:


> It is indeed best to do a Batch Resave in standalone Kontakt. I will add this to our documentation next week with the next Helpdesk update.


I think doing the batch resave in the standalone of Kontakt is probably the safest and best approach, but it should also be noted it doesn't seem to be as important now as it once was.....depending on the DAW one is using. At one point a few years ago, when batch resaving became SOP, there were libraries from some major developers that simply would not resave properly with Kontakt inside a DAW (Cubase for example). But then I found they did resave in the standalone version. I also assisted one developer to determine why, and after trial and error tests, it was discovered some coding in their libraries needed to changed. Since those days, I've found that at least 95% of the Kontakt-based libraries I have purchased can be batch resaved correctly and safely within my DAW. But then there's always one that comes along every now and then where it ends up requiring the standalone version of Kontakt for the process. So my own suggestion is: if you want to always be sure and avoid any concerns, use standalone. But if you prefer to resave within your DAW most times it should work fine. If something doesn't go as expected, then definitely try standalone next. In summary: it's not always necessary anymore to resave outside your DAW, but standalone still provides the best results overall.


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## muk (Jun 14, 2016)

Thank you Thorsten. So Violin 2 is indeed 3.5db louder??


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## jamwerks (Jun 14, 2016)

fratveno said:


> Also, on Windows, BR may not have any effect until you disable real-time protection (or explicitly allow relevant file extensions) in Windows Defender ...


Can you point to where to find these parameters?


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 14, 2016)

playz123 said:


> I think doing the batch resave in the standalone of Kontakt is probably the safest and best approach, but it should also be noted it doesn't seem to be as important now as it once was.....depending on the DAW one is using. At one point a few years ago, when batch resaving became SOP, there were libraries from some major developers that simply would not resave properly with Kontakt inside a DAW (Cubase for example). But then I found they did resave in the standalone version. I also assisted one developer to determine why, and after trial and error tests, it was discovered some coding in their libraries needed to changed. Since those days, I've found that at least 95% of the Kontakt-based libraries I have purchased can be batch resaved correctly and safely within my DAW. But then there's always one that comes along every now and then where it ends up requiring the standalone version of Kontakt for the process. So my own suggestion is: if you want to always be sure and avoid any concerns, use standalone. But if you prefer to resave within your DAW most times it should work fine. If something doesn't go as expected, then definitely try standalone next. In summary: it's not always necessary anymore to resave outside your DAW, but standalone still provides the best results overall.


Can you explain why a batch resave is needed at all? I.o.w. what is the purpose of it?


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## Zhao Shen (Jun 14, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Can you explain why a batch resave is needed at all? I.o.w. what is the purpose of it?


Basically? Faster instrument load times. It's actually insanely useful - that and Quick Load are the two Kontakt features I discovered much later that made me think "where have these been all my life??"

But you should batch re-save again if the library is updated with new samples/files.


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## cadenzajon (Jun 14, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Basically? Faster instrument load times. It's actually insanely useful - that and Quick Load are the two Kontakt features I discovered much later that made me think "where have these been all my life??"



Methinks these features are needed in EWQL Play.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Jun 14, 2016)

cadenzajon said:


> Methinks these features are needed in EWQL Play.


Play needs Kontakt


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## Zhao Shen (Jun 14, 2016)

cadenzajon said:


> Methinks these features are needed in EWQL Play.


EastWest used to run off of Kontakt. Then they went off to make PLAY. I don't understand, I feel like they would boost profits a LOT if they just gave up on PLAY and went back to relying on Kontakt. Imagine Hollywood Orchestra in Kontakt...


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> EastWest used to run off of Kontakt. Then they went off to make PLAY. I don't understand, I feel like they would boost profits a LOT if they just gave up on PLAY and went back to relying on Kontakt. Imagine Hollywood Orchestra in Kontakt...




Not going to happen.

1. Doug doesn't like being ripped off the way Kontakt developers are, nor does he like paying a lot of money to Native Instruments and not having feature requests implemented. Also, he believes that since it is free, people who love the libraries will live with Play, even though they will complain and apparently, the sales figures have proven him correct in that assessment.

2. As someone who no longer works for EW and therefore has no dog in the fight, I will say flat out that while there is much I like about Kontakt there are areas, like the mixer, output assignment, consistency and sizing of GUI, and sample linking, where Play is clearly superior IMHO.

3. I never, ever, ever again want to see one engine become as universal as Gigastudio used to be, for the obvious lessons we should have all learned from that. That is why I use libraries that use Play, Kontakt, Engine, UVI, and EXS24 and will never, ever, ever commit or advocate committing to just one.


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## procreative (Jun 14, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Not going to happen.
> 
> 1. Doug doesn't like being ripped off the way Kontakt developers are, nor does he like paying a lot of money to Native Instruments and not having feature requests implemented. Also, he believes that since it is free, people who love the libraries will live with Play, even though they will complain and apparently, the sales figures have proven him correct in that assessment.



Jay, while I do like and use Play based instruments and can completely understand the logic behind owning your own player from a piracy and licensing fees perspective there are many things that possibly argue against the idea:

1. Yes Play is free, but really its more akin to Kontakt Player which is also free. 

2. You cannot edit instruments and the GUIs in most instruments do not allow you to make keyswitch patches using your choice of articulations. 

3. Doug does not like not having feature requests implemented? What about the feature requests us users have asked for? Whatever happened to Play Pro announced 1, 2, 3, 4 ... years ago?

I would love to see the accounts to see the costs developing and supporting the player and the loss of reputation over its earlier buggy versions vs the potential savings on lost sales/piracy? I bet Doug's ego aside there is not much in it?


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2016)

1. Yes. 
2. Yes. 
3. Two different issues that you are conflating. 

No idea but I know Doug well enough to know that if he did the math and it cost more than it has saved or he estimates it will save over the long haul, he would bail on it. 

I don't want to tell tales out of school but a couple of Kontakt based developers have shared some stories in confidence that explains why some of them are transitioning or considering transitioning to UVI. 

That's all I can and will say.


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## procreative (Jun 14, 2016)

Okay, I agree nothing stays the market leader forever witness Quark XPress v InDesign, Netscape Navigator v Internet Explorer, Yahoo v Google etc.

However currently maybe most developers choose Kontakt because it has the largest user base and hence the largest potential market to sell to. I seem to remember Cinesamples did a couple of UVI titles, but none since. I wonder why?

I have libraries in UVI, Engine, Play and Kontakt, they all work. But Kontakt is the one I have had the least issues with regarding playback, memory, crashing. 

Play on the other hand needed a dedicated slave PC and lots of RAM/SSDs and many updates to get there. 

Maybe its not Play but the lack of sample compression or scripting deficiencies in EW libraries? After all we now have fairly comparable libraries to HW Strings with fairly similar dynamic levels, legato, mic mixes etc.


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## tack (Jun 14, 2016)

Lord knows the last thing we want is a monopoly like Gigastudio had. And Kontakt really does need to be knocked down a peg or two, because the abomination that is KSP really is shocking to inflict on well-meaning developers.

But from what I can tell, it's not as if the competition is technically superior and is struggling to compete due to non-technical reasons.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 14, 2016)

YAY! Just what we need... another PvK thread!


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## muk (Jun 15, 2016)

By the way, Berlin Strings First Chairs is quite a nice library, and it runs in Kontakt...


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## NYC Composer (Jun 15, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> 1. Yes.
> 2. Yes.
> 3. Two different issues that you are conflating.
> 
> ...


I totally get why Doug would want to break free from N.I. and have his own player, just as Eric did, SM did, etc etc.
What I DON'T get and have never gotten is why he didn't invest much more in improving it dramatically.

Re your earlier comment, I completely agree that Kontakt's output assignment is often a headscratching mess.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 15, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Basically? Faster instrument load times. It's actually insanely useful - that and Quick Load are the two Kontakt features I discovered much later that made me think "where have these been all my life??"
> 
> But you should batch re-save again if the library is updated with new samples/files.


Thank you Zhao, useful to know.
Quick Load I recently discovered and proves indeed very handy. 

Batch resave is now added in the toolbox.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 15, 2016)

muk said:


> By the way, Berlin Strings First Chairs is quite a nice library, and it runs in Kontakt...


Glad someone is bringing the topic back again!

I still need to get to like it because I have a few (undeniable) hiccups with the lib that I am in contact with at OT support.
The list of sample improvements, which most likely they will address with an update is addressed by several I read.
Without naming all of them here I will send it to OT.

So hopefully once my other hiccups are dealt with I am able to get some milage with this library which I can enjoy.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 15, 2016)

Anyway, these first chairs sound really good based on what I am hearing.


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## Levon (Jun 15, 2016)

Hello,

I'm looking to buy my first orchestra VI library. I want to start small with a quartet sound and see how things progress from there. I've been impressed with both the Berlin First Chairs and Spitfire Audio's Sacconi Strings from what I've heard so far in the various demos and videos. As it stands I'm undecided which one to go for. Can anyone with more experience of orchestra VIs provide any pros and cons about each of them?

Cheers,
Levon


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## playz123 (Jun 15, 2016)

Levon said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm looking to buy my first orchestra VI library. I want to start small with a quartet sound and see how things progress from there. I've been impressed with both the Berlin First Chairs and Spitfire Audio's Sacconi Strings from what I've heard so far in the various demos and videos. As it stands I'm undecided which one to go for. Can anyone with more experience of orchestra VIs provide any pros and cons about each of them?
> 
> ...


Not to over simplify, Levon, but if you want to do string quartet work then I suggest Sacconi should be considered. If you want to do first chair work and combine them with other strings then First Chairs are ideal. The two libraries really are intended for slightly different purposes.


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## constaneum (Jun 18, 2016)

Regarding the batch resave thing, I batch resave my orchestral tool libraries on standalone Kontakt. It loads like a miracle after the batch resave. However, when i rebooted my Windows PC and reload one of the libraries, it took me ages to load. Took me 1 min 53s to load Nocturne Cello's Legato 2 Bar patch. What's wrong? Batch resave doesnt work after reboot? Any idea what's wrong? I didn't have any security thing like Bit Defender installed / On. What could be the cause/problem?


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## Light and Sound (Jun 18, 2016)

constaneum said:


> Regarding the batch resave thing, I batch resave my orchestral tool libraries on standalone Kontakt. It loads like a miracle after the batch resave. However, when i rebooted my Windows PC and reload one of the libraries, it took me ages to load. Took me 1 min 53s to load Nocturne Cello's Legato 2 Bar patch. What's wrong? Batch resave doesnt work after reboot? Any idea what's wrong? I didn't have any security thing like Bit Defender installed / On. What could be the cause/problem?



As it is a windows pc, consider disabling windows defender on the sample drive - normally speeds up all sample loading times a tonne.


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## tack (Jun 18, 2016)

constaneum said:


> However, when i rebooted my Windows PC and reload one of the libraries, it took me ages to load.


First load after a reboot means the filesystem cache is cold. After it warms up, subsequent loads are faster. This probably explains what you saw (because batch resave does survive a reboot).

Windows IO performance is curiously poor in my experience. Loading samples cold, I've never been able to approach the IO throughput I know my hardware is capable of (because I've benchmarked it in Linux reading those samples back from the same partition).


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## fratveno (Jun 18, 2016)

tack said:


> First load after a reboot means the filesystem cache is cold. After it warms up, subsequent loads are faster. This probably explains what you saw (because batch resave does survive a reboot).
> 
> Windows IO performance is curiously poor in my experience. Loading samples cold, I've never been able to approach the IO throughput I know my hardware is capable of (because I've benchmarked it in Linux reading those samples back from the same partition).



In Windows defender (control panel), white listing relevant file types (e.g. "*.nki" ) will work (you don't need to disable WD itself)


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## Fer (Jun 18, 2016)

Hi! i really like how they sound.. here is something i wrotte to test them in a more lyrical way. i think they are very flexible.


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## zeng (Jun 19, 2016)

And here is a short Sacconi try (only 1st Violin & Cello for now);


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 19, 2016)

zeng said:


> And here is a short Sacconi try (only 1st Violin & Cello for now);



Quite nice Zeng.
You could make a full piece out of it( not saying you should)
Enjoyable music.


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## tack (Jun 19, 2016)

fratveno said:


> In Windows defender (control panel), white listing relevant file types (e.g. "*.nki" ) will work (you don't need to disable WD itself)


It's not that. I don't have Defender or any other antimalware enabled or running. It truly is just that Windows IO sucks. 

This is underlined by the fact that it's much faster when the cache is warm. If some intermediate process like a virus scanner was the bottleneck, that would exist whether the filesystem cache was warmed up or not.

So it's not the VFS layer itself, it's something to do with IO scheduling or even maybe AHCI drivers. I've spent a lot of time trying to optimize this, but Windows has always substantially fallen short of what I know the hardware can deliver, on all my systems, over the past decade and more.


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## Fer (Jun 19, 2016)

One problem here; the regular legato patch has portamento in the hightest velocities. But when i load the legato articulation inside a capsule multi instance there is no portamento in the hightest velocities. Are you experiencing this?


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## OT_Tobias (Jun 19, 2016)

Fer: In the multi, portamento is triggered as the "Alternative Transition" (assignable to a CC in the Controller Table); this (and the process to assign it) is described in the User Guide.


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## Fer (Jun 19, 2016)

OT_Tobias said:


> Fer: In the multi, portamento is triggered as the "Alternative Transition" (assignable to a CC in the Controller Table); this (and the process to assign it) is described in the User Guide.


Hi Tobias, thanks!


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## fratveno (Jun 20, 2016)

tack said:


> It's not that. I don't have Defender or any other antimalware enabled or running. It truly is just that Windows IO sucks.



There may indeed be other issues, I'm no Windows expert, but for me, this procedure cut the time waiting for the load dlg to appear from like 2 minutes to a couple of seconds... both on my Win7 Pro main and my Win8.1 Pro slaves. Go figure...


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jun 21, 2016)

Hey Guys, 
Here is my first Chairs Short Demo. Got them today. All close micings.


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## danielb (Jun 22, 2016)

@constaneum i had the same problem, i contacted the support again who told me:
"an antivirus application is blocking the loading.
Make sure to set exceptions for all sample drives, as well as Kontakt's file formats (nki, nkm, nka, nkc, nkr).
This is especially important if you are using Windows Defender."

i did that & everything is fine now   

hope that helps


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## danielb (Jun 22, 2016)

Here is a little song i made with berlin first chair...


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 28, 2016)

Since the demo's sounded so good, especially those from Sasha Knorr, I made the choice for the OT FC.
After playing around I have very mixed feelings regarding this library. The short notes have less problems, but the portato's and long notes, especially the legato patches have many issues in my ears.

it concerns mainly:
- the attacks in the violins I and II, and some of them in Viola. When playing around all the notes have this sharpness even after a legato transition. As is after the transition the note is played with a new bowing.
- several of the notes seem to have "tuning" issues. Different intervals with legato produce various odd tunings. Something a real violins will (as I understand it) all do by ear, but within this library it seems so irregular.
- legato transitions seem sometimes very pronounced (volume) and then lesser pronounced in one patch.
- the cello seems to play with more "swells" then the other strings.

The demand on the system seems also an issue at times. I had to put the buffer size to 512 in order to get rid of big CPU spikes when loading the multimode patches.

When playing more "lyrical" style which I like to do a lot, this library seems less able for that. And yes, it doesn't claim to be a solo quartet but a FC library. Nonetheless I hope some of these things get fixed in the near future, although I think that unfortunately new samples will not be part of that.

All in all, these are what make me have mixed feelings about this potentially good library. But for now it feels like a not so good investment unfortunately. Especially because I like OT products. I have Symphonic Sphere and BWW, which are happy contributors in my music.

Any of you have similar experiences or are you more enthusiastic about this product?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jun 28, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Since the demo's sounded so good, especially those from Sasha Knorr, I made the choice for the OT FC.
> After playing around I have very mixed feelings regarding this library. The short notes have less problems, but the portato's and long notes, especially the legato patches have many issues in my ears.
> 
> it concerns mainly:
> ...



I got the library too, but didn´t had so much time to look into detail. My first impressions were really good about the first chairs, but this sounds not that good though. Maybe you can submit a ticket to the OT support, so that they know about those issues?..


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 28, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I got the library too, but didn´t had so much time to look into detail. My first impressions were really good about the first chairs, but this sounds not that good though. Maybe you can submit a ticket to the OT support, so that they know about those issues?..


Hi Alexander,

I am already in contact with Tobias, who is always willing to help. Thanks.

Maybe I need to live with it that this may not be the fc library I hoped for.

But all the tuning and transitions I hope will actually get adressed in an update.

Thinking further on it, although fc is not a solo quartet, I can think of many examples where first chairs in orchestral setting have a quite exposed performance.
Like in Scheherezade from Rimsky-Korzakov you hear the violin quite "solo".

Probably the idea with samples is 'defenition' and not actually as if it can he used as solo as well. But then with the " in place" setting.


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## C-Wave (Jun 28, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Hi Alexander,
> 
> I am already in contact with Tobias, who is always willing to help. Thanks.
> 
> ...


Thank you for reporting this to Tobias.. I have the library too, but I am not proud to say that I also didn't play with much since I bought it. But where do you find these mistuning? In v1 and v2 only?and when you say "I hope will actually get....." Do you mean you got a confirmation from Tobias that they will be addressed or not?
Thanks


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 28, 2016)

C-Wave said:


> Thank you for reporting this to Tobias.. I have the library too, but I am not proud to say that I also didn't play with much since I bought it. But where do you find these mistuning? In v1 and v2 only?and when you say "I hope will actually get....." Do you mean you got a confirmation from Tobias that they will be addressed or not?
> Thanks


Hi C-Wave,

I have a skype session option with Tobias coming friday evening. So far he is first of all going to solve some of the issue I encountered. I do hope to aks him as well for what we may expect from the needed improvements of this library.


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## Lawson. (Jul 1, 2016)

New overview video out!


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## Vik (Jul 29, 2016)

Three weeks later... what kind of impression do you guys have after having had this library for a little while?


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## constaneum (Jul 29, 2016)

After looking at the latest review video, I have to say i'm not liking the Legato and Portamento. Other articulations sounded great though. No wonder they didn't showcase much of the legato and portamento features in the official demos.


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## re-peat (Jul 29, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> New overview video out!


Bizarre video in that the ConSordino-switch seems to be enabled throughout, showing the library perhaps not in a bad, but certainly in a somewhat artificially filtered light.


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## rottoy (Sep 15, 2016)

re-peat said:


> Bizarre video in that the ConSordino-switch seems to be enabled throughout, showing the library perhaps not in a bad, but certainly in a somewhat artificially filtered light.


It's not enabled, though.


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## Vik (Dec 30, 2016)

I have been downloading the OT First Chairs now, but they didn't install properly, so it seems that I need to unpack each of the .rar-files manually. Is there a way to avoid this, to save time? I have circa 16 .rar files, and each of them are 2+ gb large, so waiting for each of them to finish unpacking seems like a tedious job. I'm sure there is a better solution.... anyone? Thanks in advance.


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## Joe_D (Dec 30, 2016)

I'm not sure that I'm following you (especially since I don't have OT First Chairs and haven't therefore unpacked its .rar files), but usually, you just download all of the files first, then unpack the first .rar file and your unpacking software will sequentially unpack all of the files for you and place them in the proper folder structure. Just download all files, then unpack #1, wait a good while, and they should all be unpacked and ready to go.

You may have to use a different .rar utility if this is not happening for you.


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## tack (Dec 30, 2016)

Vik said:


> I have circa 16 .rar files, and each of them are 2+ gb large, so waiting for each of them to finish unpacking seems like a tedious job.


Isn't it a multipart archive? Like something.part1.rar, something.part2.rar, ..., something.part16.rar? You just need to extract the first part and it will automatically pull in the other parts.


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## Vik (Dec 30, 2016)

Joe_D, the unpacking process started automatically, but just stopped happening. I have to continue manually, I just wonder if there's any way to unrar all of them in one go (Tack, what you describe doesn't seem to happen...)


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## tack (Dec 30, 2016)

Vik said:


> Tack, what you describe doesn't seem to happen...


Not sure what OS or tool you're using. On Windows, I use 7zip which supports multipart archives.


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## Joe_D (Dec 30, 2016)

If you are on Mac, you can try UnRarX, and if that doesn't work, try The Unarchiver.

I guess I'll ask the obvious question: Do you have enough free hard disk space for the complete unarchiving? (I've made that mistake before....)


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## eddiemellencamp (Dec 30, 2016)

Something could have downloaded incomplete. Do an md5 check, or look for a logfile / try decompress again to see where it stops, or just have a quick once over of the file sizes. Then grab the one that is incomplete, assuming you have the option.


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## Vik (Dec 30, 2016)

Thanks, guys - I'm on OS X 10.11.6 and have UnRarX.... it seems that I need a proper cleanup in the OT folder, because something seems to have gone wrong. OT confirmed that the Connect app doesn't always extract what it should, and that manual extraction is the best remedy for that, but I'll diver deeper into this tomorrow. (And yes, Joe, I do have enough free space. What's an md5 check, Eddie?


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## eddiemellencamp (Dec 30, 2016)

A lot of times, with something big or important, you will be provided with a string that you can reference against what you downloaded to know that it got everything correctly. I would imagine it is a multipart thing, and if you extract the first part it will do everything. Open with 7zip or whatever else and try to extract, if it stops it will tell you where it happened. If that happens then that part is probably incomplete and just redownload that one part and try again.


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## Saxer (Dec 30, 2016)

If the unrar process stopps at a certain file it seems that this file is incomplete and you have to relaod it. I had same issues before (but with other libraries).


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## Vik (Dec 31, 2016)

Thanks for the replies, guys. So far, it seems that I have been able to download and unpack what I need, for both Nocturne and First Chairs. But the whole file/folder thing still confuses me...

Am I supposed to - in addition to having several automatically created folders with samples in them - have many files in at the root of my Samples folder, with names like e.g. Berlin_Strings_2_004.nkc, Berlin_Strings_150U004.nkx and so on? 


In other words: Shouldn’t all the samples reside in folder with name like "01. Violins I”, "01. Violin I” etc? And yes, I have both these folders, which actually is confusing as well... Should I actually have two folders with as similar names as I mentioned above?


I really have loads of .nkx and .nkc files (in addition to .rar files, and in addition to samples inside ), and since they are not inside dedicated folders with names that make sense, but at the root of the Samples folder, I can't help but wonder if this is expected behaviour?


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