# Virtual Wind Instruments



## Big Bob (Feb 20, 2011)

About 2 years ago, I wrote a set of guidelines for developing virtual wind instruments and I don't think I ever posted it.

So, if any of you are in the process, or, are thinking about developing a wind instrument library, you may find some useful (or at least thought-provoking) content in the attached pdf.

I'd also love to hear any pro or con discussion about this topic but don't beat me up too badly (I'm an old goat and I might not survive too vicious an attack). :lol: 

Rejoice,

Bob


----------



## acabreira (Feb 20, 2011)

Quite useful information, Big Bob, thanks.

It makes me remember though you had an ongoing version of SIPS for woodwind instruments, is there any chance we can see this here?

Best Regards


----------



## Big Bob (Feb 20, 2011)

WIPS was put on hold during my prolonged hiatus but I plan to get back to it soon now. But, don't hold your breath because I'm getting slower every day :lol:


----------



## andreasOL (Feb 20, 2011)

Hi Bob!

Whoaaa...that's an interesting text.

I just did something similiar with the Westgate samples. You might take a look in the pdf in the first ZIP of

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19760

where I implemented some of the principles you describe.

regards,
Andreas


----------



## Big Bob (Feb 20, 2011)

Hi Andreas,

Looks like some very interesting stuff indeed. 

So far, I've only had a chance to quickly skim through your pdf but I can easily see that you have covered a lot of the 'usually-uncovered bases' in wind instrument libraries. I sincerely hope that we see more and more library developers moving in this direction. 

I'd like to spend a little more time studying what you have done so I printed out your pdf and put it on my stack of reading material (which seems to be growing faster right now than I can plow it down :lol but, hopefully, I'll be getting caught up soon. 

I don't know if I'll be able to 'fire up' your scripts or not because I don't have any of Westgate's current offerings. I think I have some of their older Clarinet stuff (but I don't remember that there was any scripting (good or bad) connected with it. However, I probably still have the wave files somewhere, so we'll see.

However, it's easy to see that you have poured your 'heart and soul' into this project, kudos for sharing o-[][]-o 

God Bless,

Bob


----------



## andreasOL (Feb 21, 2011)

Good Morning Bob,

thanks for your words and nice to see you "back"  . Your work is also a substantial part of the scripts I did.

I am not aware of any older stuff from Westgate apart from the series of woodwinds + French Horn instruments that is common. So if you have clarinet samples from them they should work with the approriate patch from one of the zip archives I posted.

It even works now flawlessy with the Giga versions of the instruments. As far as reported to me by users the wav file names are the same, Kontakt can import them and the script uses them.

Wish you a good week,
Andreas


----------



## Big Bob (Feb 21, 2011)

Yes, my Westgate stuff is really old, just like me :lol: 

From skimming your material it sounds a lot like the Westgate instruments you are referring to have special legato transition samples among other things. If that's so, I know I don't have anything like that.

But then I'm usually a day late and a dollar short :roll: 

Rejoice,

Bob


----------



## andreasOL (Feb 22, 2011)

Big Bob @ Mon 21 Feb said:


> Yes, my Westgate stuff is really old, just like me :lol:
> 
> From skimming your material it sounds a lot like the Westgate instruments you are referring to have special legato transition samples among other things. If that's so, I know I don't have anything like that.
> 
> ...



Oh, yes, then it's too old. The Westgate Modular Series features same note repetition samples and legato transition samples within one octave.

Cheers,
Andreas


----------



## Tod (Feb 22, 2011)

> So, admittedly, my motivation is probably not too typical and I probably should qualify some of the statements I make accordingly.



Hey Big Bob, I know where your comeing from, you don't have to clarify anything and I'm sure almost everybody on this forum would agree inclueding Nick. 

When I first read your post about this I got excited and still am. This isn't about recreateing something that's been done, it's about takeing something that you have, regardless how new or old it is, and trying to make it better. That's the power and neat thing about Kontakt and all the scripting (and programing) capabilities it has. And you're one of the best.

Obviously this has been on your mind for quite a while. "Go for it!" I know I'm behind you 100% (unless I drop off the end of the earth and heh heh, I'm not to far behind you, OLD!) but I think almost everybody on this forum will agree.

Just wanted to encourage you Big Bob, over the years I've been encouraged by many on this forum and you're at the forfront. So "GO FOR IT". o-[][]-o o=< 

Tod


----------



## synergy543 (Feb 22, 2011)

+1

Hey Tod, good to see you around! And you're so right about improving what we already have. Sometimes it seems easier to seek an answers externally although often, the real potential is within.


----------



## Big Bob (Feb 22, 2011)

Hey Tod, old buddy, long time no see :D 

Thanks for all the kind thoughts but, in general, how have you been doing? Did my #1 son ever look you up in Montana? I don't hear from him too much because he's been incredibly busy with his job and some impossible deadlines all the time. Whereas all I have to do is loaf around all day :lol: 

As for WIPS, we shall see what we shall see.

You have a lovely day my friend.

Bob


----------



## Big Bob (Feb 23, 2011)

> But a breath controller is simply another way - a great way - to add expression, so that's different. Breath controllers work very well with samples.



Hi Again Nick,

I agree wholeheartedly, but, the degree to which a BC can, if you'll pardon the pun, 'breath life into' a sampled instrument depends on how that sampled instrument is put together. Often times only 'lip service' (aha, another pun, I'm just full of them this morning :lol: ) is paid to BCs. Or sometimes only a lame 'after the fact' consideration is given to their use.

I posted this guide to stimulate developers to think about these issues from the ground up. For a virtual wind instrument, the inclusion of breath control should be thought about from the very beginning and should even influence heavily the way the samples are constructed and put together.



> This is all just my opinion, of course.



Ditto for everything I say. However, I think that the free expression of our opinions, whether popular or not, is a stimulating way to advance the state of the art. Let's keep 'em coming 8) 

Rejoice,

Bob


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 23, 2011)

Yup yup yup.


----------



## kotori (Feb 23, 2011)

I kind of wondered whether this earlier pun of yours was intended or not:


Big Bob @ Sun Feb 20 said:


> WIPS was put on hold during my prolonged hiatus but I plan to get back to it soon now. But, _don't hold your breath_ because I'm getting slower every day :lol:





Big Bob @ Wed Feb 23 said:


> the degree to which a BC can, if you'll pardon the pun, 'breath life into' a sampled instrument depends on how that sampled instrument is put together. Often times only 'lip service' (aha, another pun, I'm just full of them this morning :lol: ) is paid to BCs. Or sometimes only a lame 'after the fact' consideration is given to their use.


Now I realize that you were just warming up (getting a second breath perhaps). I should have guessed that something like that was in the wind


----------



## Big Bob (Feb 23, 2011)

You made my day Nils, in fact I'm still laughing after reading your post :lol: 

Well, as I've said many times in the past, you do have a way with words my friend :D 

God Bless,

Bob


----------



## Udo (Feb 23, 2011)

Nick,

What happened to that mysterious new breath controller design you mentioned a long time ago??

BTW, I was following the progress of the Multiwind project by Chris Graham (started in 2006, I think). It was a customizable design with breath controller and various wind controller configurations. However, his website and flickr.com archive have disappeared. There's still some info at multiwind.wordpress.com

There hasn't been any news since May/June last year.

Does anyone know what happened?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 23, 2011)

Udo, it's in beta +, in fact I showed people a working proto at NAMM.

We're tweaking the response, building molds for the hand-molded mouthpiece, and are really close to going into production.


----------



## Udo (Feb 23, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Feb 24 said:


> Udo, it's in beta +, in fact I showed people a working proto at NAMM.
> 
> We're tweaking the response, building molds for the hand-molded mouthpiece, and are really close to going into production.



Do you have pictures, specs and indication of price?


----------



## Tod (Feb 24, 2011)

> Hey Tod, good to see you around! And you're so right about improving what we already have. Sometimes it seems easier to seek an answers externally although often, the real potential is within.



Hi synergy, 

Yeah, I kind of got away from the studio for a couple of years but I'm slowly trying to get back. It's so amazeing how fast things can change. I miss the old VIP days, seeing your avatar put a big smile on my face and brought back a lot of fond memories. It was great to see you here again too, it made my day.  :D 




> Thanks for all the kind thoughts but, in general, how have you been doing? Did my #1 son ever look you up in Montana? I don't hear from him too much because he's been incredibly busy with his job and some impossible deadlines all the time. Whereas all I have to do is loaf around all day



No Bob, I haven't heard from him, is he still in Big Arm? I go by there every once in a while and it allways brings you and your son to mind.  




> http://www.windsynth.net/
> 
> That's a good link.



Hey Nick, thanks for the link, it was interesting. I vaguely remember haveing a breath controller (I think that was what it was called) back in the late 80s. With this old brain of mine I don't remember much about it or even which keyboard I used it with. I think it was just a mouthpiece that you blew into and only put out "aftertouch" that basically controled vibrato but I don't remember for sure. Obviously they've come a long ways which one would expect.

Tod


----------



## Big Bob (Feb 24, 2011)

> No Bob, I haven't heard from him, is he still in Big Arm? I go by there every once in a while and it allways brings you and your son to mind.



No Tod, He actually got an apartment in Kalispell but he's been so buried under work and it was so long ago that he may have lost your phone #. Next time I hear from him, I'll ask him why he hasn't contacted you.

Take care my friend,

Bob


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 24, 2011)

Tod, you're probably talking about the Yamaha BC-1, which came with the DX-7. I like the overall feel better than the current BC-3a (which I don't care for at all), but it required too much pressure and hurt your salivary glands.

Ours - the CC2 Breath Controller - is the same idea, except that it has a much better feel above all (that was the reason we developed it), plus it puts out MIDI (you don't need a separate MIDI Solutions box), has a choice of response curves, and you can choose the controller it sends. My guess is that most people will use it to control dynamics rather than vibrato, but you can route any MIDI CC to any other one.

Udo, those are pretty much the specs, and I'll post pix as soon as we get to the production version. The mouthpiece I was carrying around at NAMM was just the native yellowy white color of the resin, rather than the rich blue we're making them now...in other words, I don't want to show the world something that doesn't look like the real version.

The exact price hasn't been determined, so it would be a Marketing 101 mistake to say anything now.


----------



## tfishbein82 (Feb 24, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Feb 24 said:


> Tod, you're probably talking about the Yamaha BC-1, which came with the DX-7. I like the overall feel better than the current BC-3a (which I don't care for at all), but it required too much pressure and hurt your salivary glands.
> 
> Ours - the CC2 Breath Controller - is the same idea, except that it has a much better feel above all (that was the reason we developed it), plus it puts out MIDI (you don't need a separate MIDI Solutions box), has a choice of response curves, and you can choose the controller it sends. My guess is that most people will use it to control dynamics rather than vibrato, but you can route any MIDI CC to any other one.
> 
> ...


So this is actually happening? I share your distaste for the BC-3a but it's really the only option. I've been looking at wind controllers (USB-EWI in particular), but as a pianist, a breath controller suits me better.


----------



## Tod (Feb 24, 2011)

> Tod, you're probably talking about the Yamaha BC-1, which came with the DX-7. I like the overall feel better than the current BC-3a (which I don't care for at all), but it required too much pressure and hurt your salivary glands.



Yeah Nick, I'm pretty sure it was a Yamaha. Not sure about the DX-7, it could have been, it took a lot of keyboards back then to get all the various sounds. At that time I was stripeing tape with SMPTE to lock my computer sequencer and I used the BC to add "aftertouch" after the fact which was hard to do with a keyboard in those days. Heh heh your right, it took a pretty good set of lungs and I remember getting dizzy sometimes.  But it did work better than trying to do it with the keyboard while I played the notes.


----------



## Tod (Feb 24, 2011)

> Ours - the CC2 Breath Controller - is the same idea, except that it has a much better feel above all (that was the reason we developed it), plus it puts out MIDI (you don't need a separate MIDI Solutions box), has a choice of response curves, and you can choose the controller it sends. My guess is that most people will use it to control dynamics rather than vibrato, but you can route any MIDI CC to any other one.



Hi Nick,

I'm sorry but you got me thinking about all this so I have some questions. Excuse me if these are dumb questions, just keep in mind I'm a pretty old fart. 



> except that it has a much better feel above all (that was the reason we developed it),


So heh heh, I wont get dizzy useing it? In all honesty over the years, that's the one of the main reasons I haven't really looked for them or searched them out even though I really liked it back then. 



> plus it puts out MIDI (you don't need a separate MIDI Solutions box),


How are you streaming the midi, through a regular midi chord? 



> has a choice of response curves, and you can choose the controller it sends.


This is the one that kind of stymies me. I undertand "has a choice of response curves" but only if you can control more than one contoller at at a time. But then you say "you can choose the controller it sends" which leads me to the conclusion that it only puts out one controller at a time. Is this true or didn't you quite explain it far enough or maybe I'm misinterpreting it or, heh heh, maybe I just don't understand which could easily be the case?

Forgive me Nick but these questions have been on my mind all day and I just had to ask. :D


----------



## greenfrog (Mar 18, 2011)

*Kontakt 4 scripting (for Project SAM OBC)*

Andreas -

I LOVE your Westgate scripts for Kontakt 4

I just picked up ProjectSAM Orchestral Brass Classic.

I'm wondering if you might have done similar programming for those instruments?
If not, any suggestions about learning how to do that myself??

Thanks again!


----------



## andreasOL (Mar 20, 2011)

Hi greenfrog  

thank you very much. Glad you enjoy the patches.

I also have OBC, they have dynamics crossfading only in some patches.

The big "Key s" patches do not, unfortunately.

What would be your desired patch? A version of the "Key s" patch which
contains almost all articulations with dyn crossfading? That would be a great
deal of work. Perhaps too much and Project SAM are still doing present work
so actually they should do it IMO.

Perhaps we should discuss this in another thread or by PM in order
not to hitchhike a virtual winds thread  

regards,
Andreas


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 20, 2011)

Tod, I missed your questions in this thread.

Will you get dizzy? I don't think so! But then it's never occurred to me that anyone would get dizzy from playing a BC.

MIDI out - yes, through an old-fashioned cord.

CC curves adjust the breath input/CC output level mapping throughout the range. The following link shows a velocity curve, but if you substitute breath pressure for keyboard velocity you'll get the idea. It only sends one CC, but if you want more you can set that up in most sequencers.

http://www.m-audio.com/?do=support.faq& ... 8477de082c

By the way, you could also adjust the curve inside most sequencers too. For example in Logic this is called a Transformer, and you can set one up that multiplies or divides incoming values exponentially, or adds or deletes a percentage, etc. It's not as complicated as it probably sounds.


----------

