# All the money you invest in your DAW...



## Leandro Marcos (Nov 8, 2017)

Haven't you ever come to the point of thinking cold about how much money you are investing into a computer that will loose its value in a 2 years time?
For example, with the same money you build a superpowerful machine, you could buy a top of the line Gibson guitar USA , that will keep (if not increase) its resale value over time. Of course, this is valid for someone who plays and loves guitars.
The same money, "invested" in your DAW/computer we could say it's vanished. Yes, we all spend money in things we need and things that make us happy, like being able to work with sample libraries and have a finished top notch product as if it had been recorded in a elite studio. But still…$1500, $2000 or $3000 is a lot of money. A lot. Some will say "well, I get money back by licesing tracks that come out of that expensive PC". That's out of the subject. We are talking about goods that retain their value in time vs those that do not, like PCs. 
Haven't you have these kind of thoughts? We should open a "psychology / therapy" section in the forums. Lol!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 8, 2017)

For me, it's simple. I don't "invest" in things. I just spend money I know I can, and am ready to expend on certain things.


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## mc_deli (Nov 8, 2017)

I think this all the time. I am banking on my sample libraries still being operational long after 2019 though. The hardware... well I reckon 6 years plus is possible for Apple hardware based on my experience. The real worrier for me is the cost of transplanting the library collection to a new machine at the wrong time... and by that it is a very risky place to be being "locked" into e.g. OSX, Kontakt, Spitfire libs... it all works great now but it only takes one bad OS/SW combination at the wrong time of hardware migration to cost 000s. Of course the internet and fora exist to help mitigate this risk with useful info... but I hate it... feels like I have 20,30k probably more in HW/SW and I could easily blow it with one wrong move in 2020! And yes, sometimes this causes stress  

Also agree that buying only what's affordable is the way to go.


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## mac (Nov 8, 2017)

Buying things (especially audio related) makes me happy, so what better reason is there than that?! I don't go into debt, but if I can afford it and I want it, I get it. 

I'd send myself crazy if I tried to calculate the return on each purchase, so I ignore that side of things completely. I do like a good sale though


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## Jaap (Nov 8, 2017)

It is a worktool and it costs money, but also generates money


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## J-M (Nov 8, 2017)

Buying stuff which makes my passion (all things music) easier makes me happy. Simple as that. But as a guitar guy, I try to stay away from Gibson...


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## synthpunk (Nov 8, 2017)

Life is short. Work hard for your money and spend it on the things and people you love.


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## MarcelM (Nov 8, 2017)

well, a gibson guitar might be nice but it cannot simulate a whole orchestra playing


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## FriFlo (Nov 9, 2017)

I think it terms of DAW this is less of a problem today than it was 10-20 years ago. The reason being that the speed of PC components does not change performance these days as it used to. My audio PC from 20 years ago was pretty much obsolete 5 years later - beyond the point of upgradability! And it was a pretty powerful system when I bought it. 
Today, I am using an upgraded 2010 Mac Pro as main machine plus two slave PCs. The older PC is 6 years old the younger one 4. Both hold up extremely well and the Mac will hold at least 3 more years. I didn't even buy it for a lot of money, as I bought it used when all people jumped to the trash cans.
The only big jump happened with SSDs emerging in the mass market, but that pretty much has been it in the world of sample based production. Nowhere as much as a cataclysmic event as the jump from 32 to 64-bit, which made up to 128gb of ram available vs 3-4 before. Of course that does not mean I can expect to sell my PCs or macs for a lot of money when I finally get a new one. But today I know a new slave PC with 2000-3000€ will be good for at least 6 year, probably even 10.
What really does alter that game is companies like Apple, that continue to "reinvent" the computer once every while. Jumping to PCIe only to early, then completly abandoning it in favour of Thunderbolt 2, only to dump that in favour of USB-C ... all that within 10 years! THAT did cost you a lot, if you were following them with every new release! But in terms of audio computing, it really hasn't been necessary in my case. Let's see how their new Mac Pro (possibly 2018, maybe even later) will hold up!? I might upgrade my main machine, if they do well this time. I might also switch to Windows fully at that time, if they mess up again or cost me too much money ...


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## InLight-Tone (Nov 9, 2017)

And let's not forget that back in the 90's real time synthesis and sampling was not possible. The computer DAW was for midi capture and editing only (Cakewalk on floppy disk anyone), which meant you had to buy your sound sources externally. I remember paying $2000+ for each machine like a D-50, DX7 etc. To get a full "orchestra" going meant having deep pockets and taking on some major debt. 

We have it great today, though we do have to buy boatloads of expensive samples....


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## Polkasound (Nov 9, 2017)

I never think about the resale value of my PCs because, like my cars, I use them until they become unusable and then junk 'em. I built my recording studio's PC in 2013. Because it was a top-of-the-line machine in its day, it still gets the job done today and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

My PC at home was a top-of-the-line build in 2006. Since the only thing I run on it is ancient software, it's still getting the job done.


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## Saxer (Nov 9, 2017)

Investing in a DAW is cheeper than driving your own Taxi. Today a kitchen or a bathroom at home is probably more expensive than a simple but useable studio workstation place.

Start building a studio for recording real bands or orchestras in good rooms with best microphones and a mixing desk. That's a live time investment.


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## Nils Neumann (Nov 9, 2017)

I have a huge orchestra in my computer, all components are about 4000€, that is fucking cheap? If I buy a gibson I just have one guitar sound.
And I’m still using a computer from 2010, sample libraries from 2007. I really don’t get the point of the OP?


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## charlieclouser (Nov 9, 2017)

I like to think of computers, software, libraries, and even a lot of hardware synths and outboard gear as NAILS, not HAMMERS.

NAILS get consumed in the process of doing the job.

HAMMERS are "investments" that can be used for years across multiple jobs.

Early on, I often thought, "This is the last synth I'll everrrrr neeeeed to buy! If I can just afford this, I won't need anything else!" Making the mistake of thinking that nails were hammers.

But eventually, just about every piece of gear (except guitars) has become obsolete, cranky, needed repair, or just plain became obsolete when a newer, shinier piece came along.

A good guitar, a nice piano, even some bullet-proof and dead simple guitar pedals - those are hammers...but most of the rest of it is nails. Buy 'em by the sack.

I don't get upset when I run out of nails anymore.


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## John Busby (Nov 9, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> I like to think of computers, software, libraries, and even a lot of hardware synths and outboard gear as NAILS, not HAMMERS.
> 
> NAILS get consumed in the process of doing the job.
> 
> ...


you nailed it!


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## chillbot (Nov 9, 2017)

Yeah.. nails is a nice analogy. Like nails to a carpenter, it's just overhead same as electricity/internet/utilities, studio rent and insurance, beer for the fridge. In my mind I have always "rented" my DAW at a cost of somewhere around $300/month, it's built-in to the overhead.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Nov 9, 2017)

Fortunately I do not have to worry about this.

I have a Pro-spec 32GB PC as my Slave (which will be incrementally updated)
And a 2012 Mac Pro as my Master, with which the general consensus across many sources is that Macs do not lose value as fast. And then hold at a steady value for a long time when they do.

This machine was released by Apple in 2010 and then boosted in 2012. Now since the chips I have in mine are the same speed as the 2010 model, this has the equivalent recourse power of a 2010 machine, yet here I am using it a sa Master in 2017.
I can still add double the RAM, PCI-e SSDs, Faster Graphics, bigger Drives, USB-C expansion cards....and the list goes on.

This machine is still not near the end of its life in terms of upgrades and I am sure I will get another 3 years out of the machine that is now 5 years old for me, but 7 in terms of technological capability.

So I am not seeing losses really...I guess is what I am saying


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## Quasar (Nov 9, 2017)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Fortunately I do not have to worry about this.
> 
> I have a Pro-spec 32GB PC as my Slave (which will be incrementally updated)
> And a 2012 Mac Pro as my Master, with which the general consensus across many sources is that Macs do not lose value as fast. And then hold at a steady value for a long time when they do.
> ...



While it's true that Macs tend to retain their value (we'll see if this holds true in the new "glued-down" era - I am skeptical) better than PCs in the marketplace, it's also true that if you build your own PC with good parts, it's not necessarily the total loss that an $500 off-the-rack PC would be. I assembled the workstation I have now in 2012, have since swapped/added drives, and upgraded the PSU, added memory... Eventually (not yet) I will get a new CPU/MB/RAM combo and put this into the same nice Lian Li case, keeping the drives, the GPU etc... It can just sort of incrementally morph into a more modern PC over time. 

Some ongoing expense, sure, but nothing like people who spend money keeping an automobile on the road, traveling on vacations, buying trendy clothes, eating in restaurants and all of that.


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## VinRice (Nov 9, 2017)

Leandro Marcos said:


> Haven't you ever come to the point of thinking cold about how much money you are investing into a computer that will loose its value in a 2 years time?
> For example, with the same money you build a superpowerful machine, you could buy a top of the line Gibson guitar USA , that will keep (if not increase) its resale value over time. Of course, this is valid for someone who plays and loves guitars.
> The same money, "invested" in your DAW/computer we could say it's vanished. Yes, we all spend money in things we need and things that make us happy, like being able to work with sample libraries and have a finished top notch product as if it had been recorded in a elite studio. But still…$1500, $2000 or $3000 is a lot of money. A lot. Some will say "well, I get money back by licesing tracks that come out of that expensive PC". That's out of the subject. We are talking about goods that retain their value in time vs those that do not, like PCs.
> Haven't you have these kind of thoughts? We should open a "psychology / therapy" section in the forums. Lol!



It's a false equivalence. If you want a guitar, buy a guitar. If you want to compose with 1000's of instruments (and design a house, watch videos, do your taxes, read your emails, edit a film etc...) buy the best computer you can afford. Now if you want to think of it in terms of wealth management then why the hell are you buying a guitar? It will certainly keep it's value better than the computer but it will it still lose until until it reaches 'vintage' status in 40 years time (assuming you have bought the 'right' guitar - and who knows what that will be?)

With a computer and software you are investing in yourself and your potential to create and earn with it. Whether it's a good investment or not is entirely up to you.


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## NoamL (Nov 9, 2017)

The only way your DAW will ever be a wasted investment is if you are lucky enough to work with a director who skips the mock-up and trusts you all the way to the scoring stage. Well, only one composer, and arguably only one director, works that way anymore.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 9, 2017)

The nice thing with DAW development there is always a push to be resource efficient. The gaming industry is the opposite.


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## Vik (Nov 9, 2017)

I bought my last Mac in 2008 - an 8-core MacPro which now has 32gb RAM and a dew SSDs installed. It's still going strong. I can't use Sierra on it, but so be it. AFAIK there isn't much Sierra offer that I would need.

Logic Pro is $199, and that includes years of updates. So I'm not bothered at all by these investments. The only thing which bothers me is that Apple has slowed down the development in pretty much all Logic areas that interest me for 5-10 years now, and that they also seem to be very slow at delivering the kind of Macs people like us need: modular MacPros, MacBook Pros with 32bg RAM or more... they have also downgraded the MacMini. That kind of stuff bothers me, and in many ways I don't see Apple, as I remember it...





...as Apple anymore.

What they do with iPhones and composers is also very ugly: the list a lot of facts about every song you play - except info about who wrote it.

Maybe some new company one day will catch up where Apple left before they went all $$$? A company which isn't mainly about market share, phones, cars, watches, payment solutions, TVs and a silly Music app, but which is run by some kind of idealism (combined with the ability to have a heathy economy).


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 10, 2017)

Jaap said:


> It is a worktool and it costs money, but also generates money


Pfft. Speak for yourself Jaap!


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## kunst91 (Nov 10, 2017)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Fortunately I do not have to worry about this.
> 
> I have a Pro-spec 32GB PC as my Slave (which will be incrementally updated)
> And a 2012 Mac Pro as my Master, with which the general consensus across many sources is that Macs do not lose value as fast. And then hold at a steady value for a long time when they do.
> ...



Even with your machine being built in 2010, you're still speaking in the short term. Plus you even mentioned a "boosting" in 2012 to keep it up to par. Sure, my system could last me another 10 years. Still just a very durable (and expensive) nail. 

There's no secret why you walk into any great studio and see computers from the 2010's and guitars from the 1950's. Nails and hammers.


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## Arbee (Nov 10, 2017)

Leandro Marcos said:


> Haven't you ever come to the point of thinking cold about how much money you are investing into a computer that will loose its value in a 2 years time?


When I left music professionally around 1992, I left with the reality that to own what I wanted, in order to produce the music I wanted to produce, would cost somewhere around $1million in instruments and studio gear (or thousands per week in studio charges). Totally beyond hope. When I came back to music a few years ago, what I could achieve with around $20K in hardware and software totally blew my mind. In that context, a few grand for a DAW?  Heaven


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## elpedro (Nov 11, 2017)

maybe i spent 75 grand or more (probably much more!) over the last twenty years, could have spent it on something useless like a sports car....


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## Per Boysen (Nov 12, 2017)

As a tool that you need to do what you want to do, I think the DAW is a kind of investment. Personally, I usually stay away from buying things that don't positively affect my productivity/income. But it is a delicate balance where your possible working hours also plays a part. Gear that will let me work faster is favored


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Nov 12, 2017)

kunst91 said:


> Even with your machine being built in 2010, you're still speaking in the short term. Plus you even mentioned a "boosting" in 2012 to keep it up to par. Sure, my system could last me another 10 years. Still just a very durable (and expensive) nail.
> 
> There's no secret why you walk into any great studio and see computers from the 2010's and guitars from the 1950's. Nails and hammers.


I mentioned that the PC was the one I would be boosting, but yes there is more I can do with the lovely cheese grater still


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## JohnG (Nov 12, 2017)

I think the continued existence of artists, poets, composers, set designers, dressmakers -- you name it -- proves conclusively that humans are not (solely) profit-maximizing creatures.

Economics talks about maximising utility, but "utility" in that context often seems conflated with profit or another financially-measured concept.

Either way, we composers / sound fiddlers also seek to maximise our utility; we just get more utility out of doing something that fascinates us and if money comes along that's an artifact of the first thing.

Put another way, the "expected value" of practicing your instrument or learning to write music is probably somewhere south of zero, especially if you take into account the opportunity cost of instead becoming a banker or plumber, or something else that generates a predictably large income.

So if the original question includes, "does it drive you crazy that we buy a lot of stuff whose value depreciates quickly and radically?" I guess my answer is that, if it _does_ drive you crazy, you're more rational, but you might be in the wrong business.


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## Prockamanisc (Nov 12, 2017)

Arbee said:


> When I came back to music a few years ago, what I could achieve with around $20K in hardware and software totally blew my mind.


Well now I have to know what it is that you got!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 12, 2017)

It's not like it was when computers were 2-1/2-year investments. I bought my previous computer new in 2008 for about $2500 and used it all day long until this January, when I put it on ebay (which was a mistake - I should just have kept it as a backup). The used machine I bought this year was $1350.

Storage is another matter, but computers have reached a plateau.


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## Prockamanisc (Nov 12, 2017)

I think my computer is past the tipping point where I won't need to replace it until basically technology has a paradigm shift. My OS drive is super fast, my storage is super fast, there's nothing more that I need. However, if developers start coming out with libraries that are like 2TB large and require 300GB of RAM to operate, then I'll need to upgrade. 

On a side note, I'm excited for the day when developers start releasing libraries that are like 2TB large and require 300GB of RAM to operate, and would happily build a new computer to support it.


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## Arbee (Nov 13, 2017)

Prockamanisc said:


> Well now I have to know what it is that you got!


Ha, well..... there was the Kawai digital piano and Axiom Pro for keyboards, the high end gaming PC as a DAW, the Maton acoustic and more recently Telecaster electric, Pro Tools, some VSL libraries and software/effects, Addictive Drums, Omnisphere/Trilian, Zebra and a sprinkling of 8dio and Soundiron libs, Ozone, Sibelius etc. When I departed music the first time around, a 24 track digital tape machine alone was around the half million dollar mark


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## Prockamanisc (Nov 13, 2017)

Oh wow, I can imagine how different things must be, then. I had to carry a tape machine up some stairs the other day....that really sucked. I'll never complain about a dongle again.


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