# Getting Stuck In! Goldsmith/First Contact (pt 1.)



## fixxer49 (Apr 19, 2018)

End Credits from Star Trek: First Contact (pt 1.)

I’m kind of putting my balls on the chopping block here. Oh well. Here we go.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/end-credits-first-contact_jf_13-mp3.13030/][/AUDIOPLUS]
(revised, per comments and suggestions below)

A humbling and enlightening lesson for me. Probably not considered the most original (or challenging, some might say) piece to work out or mock up. So why even do it?

a. Because it felt good.

b. Ear training – I resisted every urge to look at a score. God help me.

c. Because it’s so well known and also probably considered _easy_ by many on this forum, there’s no way to cover things up with hybrid techniques or synths, etc… – you’re basically exposed, for better or worse.


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## patrick76 (Apr 19, 2018)

This sounds really nice! The horns at the beginning at about 5 seconds sound a bit unnatural the way they stop the note there (and maybe the trumpets at about 15 seconds), but I think the sound you got and the performance is great! Please share some info on the libraries, programming, processing, etc. I love the clarity you've achieved and that sound stage type sound. A very musical performance! Thanks for sharing.

Also, I don't think many here would consider this easy. This is highly skilled work I would say.


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## CT (Apr 19, 2018)

I agree, this sounds really nice! I think it could take a little more reverb, since by this point in his life Jerry liked his music to sound as if it was recorded from at least a few miles away, and also because I'm a reverb junkie; but that's just taste.

The opening horns could be worked on, too. Did you perform that part in real time? If not, that might help a lot.

You did this without looking at the score? Nothing sticks out to me as being obviously wrong. Not bad!


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## fixxer49 (Apr 19, 2018)

miket said:


> The opening horns could be worked on, too. Did you perform that part in real time? If not, that might help a lot.


Yes, they were played in, and then "massaged" after the fact. Guess there's still a ways to go. I'm embarrassed to say that I pretty much agonized over that opening line. Back to the drawing board... 



miket said:


> I think it could take a little more reverb


I hear you. I was on the fence with that, and decided to go dry. (I liked the sound of Jackman's recent "Jumanji" score.)



miket said:


> You did this without looking at the score? Nothing sticks out to me as being obviously wrong. Not bad!


Thanks  The _plan_ was actually to get a rough thing going by ear and THEN get detailed with the help of a score, but as i was picking through it on the piano, i really enjoyed discovering these subtle little genius moves that Jerry was doing all over the place, and getting a sense of the patterns and language he was using. At that point I was like, "[email protected]#k it, we're bare-backing this pony to the finish line!" Turned out to be the best thing I've done for my development and musical enjoyment in years.


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## fixxer49 (Apr 19, 2018)

patrick76 said:


> This sounds really nice! The horns at the beginning at about 5 seconds sound a bit unnatural the way they stop the note there (and maybe the trumpets at about 15 seconds), but I think the sound you got and the performance is great! Please share some info on the libraries, programming, processing, etc. I love the clarity you've achieved and that sound stage type sound. A very musical performance! Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Also, I don't think many here would consider this easy. This is highly skilled work I would say.


Thank you! 
But you are right - I think I'm going to have to revisit those opening lines. Now I'm really afraid to tackle the next section of this piece (the slow section)....! 

[I can update this post with a list of libraries used, etc.]


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## fixxer49 (Apr 20, 2018)

patrick76 said:


> Please share some info on the libraries, programming, processing, etc. I love the clarity you've achieved and that sound stage type sound. A very musical performance! Thanks for sharing.


Here's a list of libraries used:
*Brass: *
Samplemodeling; CineBrass Core & Pro; EW Hollywood Brass,; Adventure Brass; VSL; Waverunner Audio

*Strings:*
CSSS; CSSS; Spitfire Chamber Strings; Soaring Strings; Adventure Strings; CineStrings Runs, Orchestral Tools Runs 2; Orchestral Tools Berlin Inspire; ProjectSam Orchestral Essentials 1; Albion 2

*Winds:*
VSL, Cinesamples Hollywoodwinds; OT Berlin Inspire; ProjectSAM Orchestral Essentials 1; Albion One

*A few ensemble legatos:* Symphobia 2

*Timpani, Glock and Celesta:* True Strike
*Vibraphone:* VSL
*Chimes:* EWQLSO
*Piano:* Piano In Blue
*Harp:* OT Symphonic Sphere
*Bass Drum & Cym:* OT Berlin Inspire

*Master Bus Reverbs:* (edit) Altiverb (Teldex Berlin); Altiverb (Mechanics Hall);

*Section "Depth" Reverb (as an insert on some - not all - sections):* Eventide 2016


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## CT (Apr 21, 2018)

Wow; I would never have guessed that there were so many different libraries involved. It sounds incredibly cohesive and balanced for such a mishmash! That kind of mixing and matching just gives me a headache to think about, but clearly it can be done really well.


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## fixxer49 (Apr 21, 2018)

patrick76 said:


> The horns at the beginning at about 5 seconds sound a bit unnatural the way they stop the note there (and maybe the trumpets at about 15 seconds),


thanks for pointing these out. i didn't hear it myself at first - but once you mentioned it, it was the ONLY thing i heard! I went back in and finessed the expression programming and timing of the transitions and note endings. hopefully it's more natural now.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/end-credits-first-contact_jf_13-mp3.13030/][/AUDIOPLUS]
_(revised)_


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## fixxer49 (Apr 21, 2018)

miket said:


> Wow; I would never have guessed that there were so many different libraries involved. It sounds incredibly cohesive and balanced for such a mishmash! That kind of mixing and matching just gives me a headache to think about, but clearly it can be done really well.


hehe. yes, I'm a bit of a sample slut. (And you can add one more to the list: Waverunner Audio french horns.)
btw, I updated the track based on yours and @patrick76 's comments/suggestions. Pls see above. I even goosed the reverb a bit for you  (and placed the overall soundstage in a more "live" room IR). Thanks very much for the ears and suggestions. Really helped!


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## ryans (Apr 22, 2018)

Well done.. musical and nicely balanced. Love the dry sound..

Ryan


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## fixxer49 (Apr 23, 2018)

ryans said:


> Well done.. musical and nicely balanced. Love the dry sound..
> 
> Ryan


Thanks, Ryan! I think I initially overdid the dry thing on the first pass, so I put _some_ apparent ambience back in on a couple other members' suggestions. Even so, there's quite a lot of reverb going on in the background, but the intention is to be felt rather than heard. I'm no mix engineer. If i was going to have someone mix this professionally, I'd ask them to use what I've posted as a jumping off point. Anyway, here's what I did:

Most of the section busses have the *Eventide 2016 Room* as an insert, to give some depth and air.
The main room IR send from the mix buss was 20th Century Fox stage (Altiverb), and I then changed it to *Teldex IR*, which is a little more "live" sounding.
There is also a secondary send to the *Mechanics Hall IR* which is way, way down in the mix.


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## ryans (Apr 23, 2018)

Yes your IR's are working really well.. In this case when I said 'dry sound' I meant less reverb tail... at least compared to the first contact recording. Your mix actually sounds closer to the original motion picture recording...

Ryan


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## patrick76 (Apr 23, 2018)

The new version is great! I love those string runs.


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## fixxer49 (Apr 24, 2018)

patrick76 said:


> The new version is great! I love those string runs.


Thanks again, Patrick. This has been a team effort  V.I.C. : together we're going to drag ourselves up from the Uncanny Gutter, er I mean Valley. Oh yes, those runs - the very first thing I worked on, and they were basically the go/no-go factor. Saved by Orchestral Tools and CineSamples!


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## fixxer49 (Apr 24, 2018)

ryans said:


> Yes your IR's are working really well.. In this case when I said 'dry sound' I meant less reverb tail... at least compared to the first contact recording. Your mix actually sounds closer to the original motion picture recording...
> 
> Ryan


oh this makes me feel good! I am looking forward to taking these lessons and applying them to some original work moving forward. Also, I really want to finish the rest of _this_ piece...


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## markleake (Apr 24, 2018)

This sounds fantastic. Much better than some Star Trek mockups I've heard before. I also can't believe how many libraries you used to do this. The brass stands out to me as sounding fantastic - do you think it was Samplemodeling that got you closest to the sound you wanted, or the other brass libraries contributed equally as much? The only brass libraries in your list I have are Hollywood and Waverunner, so I'm curious to see what you think mostly made the brass sound this good. Or was it just tweaking and mixing/doubling that got you there?


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## fixxer49 (Apr 24, 2018)

markleake said:


> This sounds fantastic. Much better than some Star Trek mockups I've heard before. I also can't believe how many libraries you used to do this. The brass stands out to me as sounding fantastic - do you think it was Samplemodeling that got you closest to the sound you wanted, or the other brass libraries contributed equally as much? The only brass libraries in your list I have are Hollywood and Waverunner, so I'm curious to see what you think mostly made the brass sound this good. Or was it just tweaking and mixing/doubling that got you there?


Thanks, Mark. A bit of everything you mentioned above. But, as just an inspiring jump-off point, it was Cinebrass. Particularly the *Fr. Horn chords* patch. That gave a huge amount of realism to start with.
I will try to provide a more complete answer shortly. But, basically this was a "use every part of the buffalo" kinda deal.


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## I like music (Apr 24, 2018)

fixxer49 said:


> End Credits from Star Trek: First Contact (pt 1.)
> 
> I’m kind of putting my balls on the chopping block here. Oh well. Here we go.
> 
> ...



Excellent! Doing one myself, but won't share. Long way to go.

For the middle bit/ FC theme, you going to use the SM french horns? Please do!


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## fixxer49 (Apr 24, 2018)

I like music said:


> or the middle bit/ FC theme, you going to use the SM french horns? Please do!


oh yeah! the SM horn is the main thing holding up the sketch at the moment, so it's more than likely to be in the final. (alas this section is only in sketch form currently...)


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## J-M (Apr 24, 2018)

Just dropped in to say that this sounds really, really good!


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## robgb (Apr 24, 2018)

fixxer49 said:


> *Brass: *
> Samplemodeling; CineBrass Core & Pro; EW Hollywood Brass,; Adventure Brass; VSL; Waverunner Audio


I remember a well-known composer saying you can't layer/mix brass sample libraries. I guess this proves him wrong. NICE work.


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## ghandizilla (Apr 24, 2018)

Impressed by how many libraries seem to stand in the same room, and in the same time, how dry it is. When I mix different rooms together, I tend to get very wet just to "hide" the inconsistencies. Regarding control of virtual instruments, it is a masterpiece.


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## fixxer49 (Apr 24, 2018)

robgb said:


> I remember a well-known composer saying you can't layer/mix brass sample libraries. I guess this proves him wrong. NICE work.


Really? Who said that? (Is it possible to mention who without condemning this to the new “drama” sub-forum?) Personally, I stopped thinking of them as _librarieS_ (plural) and just see my overall collection as one library: MY LIBRARY. Which was the original point of even tackling this piece of music – to help me balance the whole thing out.

If there’s an interest on this forum - and if I can figure out how to capture it - I’d be more than happy to demonstrate in a “DAW-cast” how they’re all working together.


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## markleake (Apr 24, 2018)

If you can spare the time and effort, I'd be interested in a walk through of what you did. I'm very curious about the brass. I've been thinking about getting CineBrass, and am curious to see how you worked all the brass out for this track.


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## Henu (Apr 24, 2018)

fixxer49 said:


> overall collection as one library....to help me balance the whole thing out.



As a blatantly derailing sidenote,

It's basically only about the space they are in and the general EQ. The rest is just details, playability, articulations and flexibility. I'm doing a test- purpose "raw" template as we speak, and many who haven't tried it out would be completely baffled about how little differencies most of the libraries have when stripped from the room mics and replaced the space with plugins instead.

The excerpt below was a test to quickly test out the balance of the string sections together using just long sustains (no CC riding at all), but I ended up trying out two different libraries and match them sound alike. And I think these two different libraries sound quite the same at the end with maybe one minute of work! Granted, the brass _is_ trickier. But then again, WW libraries are even more easier to match together than the strings.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/asdasd-mp3.13083/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## fixxer49 (Apr 25, 2018)

markleake said:


> If you can spare the time and effort, I'd be interested in a walk through of what you did. I'm very curious about the brass. I've been thinking about getting CineBrass, and am curious to see how you worked all the brass out for this track.


sure! I'll try to get something up today.

*Spoiler Alert: it's less complex/sophisticated than you might think


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## fixxer49 (Apr 25, 2018)

markleake said:


> If you can spare the time and effort, I'd be interested in a walk through of what you did. I'm very curious about the brass. I've been thinking about getting CineBrass, and am curious to see how you worked all the brass out for this track.



Hey Mark, here you go (brass section only)...


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## markleake (Apr 26, 2018)

Awesome, thanks fixxer49, that was very helpful. You were right in saying it was fairly straight forward. You are basically layering the trumpets a bit, the rest is just some EQ and reverb. This showed me exactly what I needed, and with humour. Thanks again!


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## Loïc D (Apr 26, 2018)

Excellent, congratulations !
Lots of grit in the bass, love it :D


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## fixxer49 (Apr 26, 2018)

Henu said:


> But then again, WW libraries are even more easier to match together than the strings.


well yeah. ESPECIALLY when they're being absolutely f-ing _mauled_ by the brass!


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## PeterN (Apr 26, 2018)

Maybe worth mentioning, got mail from Mike Vertas mail list that Goldsmith class coming up. Even on his Website, date and all.

With Best Regards,
Mike Verta Fan Club


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## fixxer49 (Apr 28, 2018)

markleake said:


> Awesome, thanks fixxer49, that was very helpful. You were right in saying it was fairly straight forward. You are basically layering the trumpets a bit, the rest is just some EQ and reverb. This showed me exactly what I needed, and with humour. Thanks again!





Henu said:


> WW libraries are even more easier to match together than the strings.



@markleake , @Henu and anyone else who's interested, I put together a very quick n dirty woodwinds walkthrough. nothing too mindblowing.

Honestly, I can BARELY make out the woodwind parts during the loud, brass-dominated sections in the original recording, so I’m guessing a little here. (But they are educated guesses, at least.)


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## Alex Maslov (Jul 10, 2018)

Amazing work, fixxer49!
Thank you for sharing!!!))


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## mike829 (Aug 28, 2018)

This is excellent! Could you do a video on the strings? Very impressed with them.


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## brenneisen (Oct 29, 2019)

mike829 said:


> Could you do a video on the strings?



+1


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## fixxer49 (Nov 4, 2019)

mike829 said:


> This is excellent! Could you do a video on the strings? Very impressed with them.





brenneisen said:


> +1


thnx. yes - i'll make it my holiday project. 
(and i should actually just finish the track...)


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