# Can Dorico handle hundreds of tracks?



## Orlu (Oct 26, 2022)

I plan on trying to do my orchestral mockups directly in Dorico. The basic idea I had was this:

I have a standard orchestral layout where everything is using Noteperformer. These are basically my "Sketch Tracks", which I use to quickly try out ideas.







Once I like something, I use the great new filters to unveil my sample libraries and then can start programming my midi from there. I don't want to use any keyswitching/expression maps, so every articulation will live on its own track.







The instruments would be all hosted on VEPro and disabled by default. 
My few experiments I did so far were very promising and I'm really enjoying this kind of workflow. My biggest concern is that in the end I would probably end up with at least 500-600 tracks/players and I'm not sure if Dorico will be able to deal with such a big amount?

Has anyone tried something similar? Since this is quite a big undertaking I don't want to jump in completely blind.

Thanks!


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## pefra (Oct 26, 2022)

Watching!


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## Orlu (Oct 26, 2022)

3DC said:


> Yes. Here is an example with Dorico + VEPro + Iconica workflow for anyone interested.



Thanks, but unless I've missed something in the video he is using a lot less tracks than what I would use (because he only uses a single library with keyswitch patches). 

Since I want to use single articulation patches I would end up with up to 20 articulations per instrument. My worry is that Dorico's UI will grind to a halt with so many players (even though I won't ever show them all at the same time since they are hidden through the filtering system).


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## ennbr (Oct 26, 2022)

You seem to be missing the point of notation software and that's to produce in the end sheet music to hand out to and orchestra or a band.

Are you suggesting that in the end a violin player or any player for that matter will be handed a piece of sheet music with a staff for each articulation.

Why are you considering this workflow

Even VePro is intended to have all the instruments enabled and ready when needed


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## Orlu (Oct 26, 2022)

ennbr said:


> You seem to be missing the point of notation software and that's to produce in the end sheet music to hand out to and orchestra or a band.
> 
> Are you suggesting that in the end a violin player or any player for that matter will be handed a piece of sheet music with a staff for each articulation.
> 
> ...


I don't want to use Dorico for producing sheet music, I want to use it for composing and producing mockups.


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## Ivan Duch (Oct 26, 2022)

In my opinion it's better to use Dorico for composition and orchestration purposes. For that it completely beats a DAW if you like working with notation.

It can also do rough mockups of course (ideal to get an initial approval from a client) but the workflow and tools it has are no competition for a DAW when it comes to layering libraries, working with hundreds of articulations, CCs, mixing and mastering. 

What I've been doing myself is writing with noteperformer, then switching to my custom playback template (which uses my libraries) and from there I either export the midi to a DAW or send an initial mockup directly from Dorico to clients for approval before properly producing it on DAW.


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## jamwerks (Oct 26, 2022)

You probably won't have any problem having lots (more than a hundred) tracks.


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## sinkd (Oct 26, 2022)

I think it could work to use Dorico as the note input engine for your mockups, but using it this way (without keyswitches/expression maps) is really in effect disabling a really strong feature of the software. The key editor improvements will help you to add controller expression, etc., but if notation is not the end goal I think it would still be better to do detail MIDI editing in a DAW.


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## Orlu (Oct 26, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> In my opinion it's better to use Dorico for composition and orchestration purposes. For that it completely beats a DAW if you like working with notation.
> 
> It can also do rough mockups of course (ideal to get an initial approval from a client) but the workflow and tools it has are no competition for a DAW when it comes to layering libraries, working with hundreds of articulations, CCs, mixing and mastering.
> 
> What I've been doing myself is writing with noteperformer, then switching to my custom playback template (which uses my libraries) and from there I either export the midi to a DAW or send an initial mockup directly from Dorico to clients for approval before properly producing it on DAW.


That's basically what I've been doing (orchestration in Dorico with Noteperformer, then mockup in the DAW), but I personally don't like to separate orchestration and mockup, I much prefer doing both at the same time.



sinkd said:


> I think it could work to use Dorico as the note input engine for your mockups, but using it this way (without keyswitches/expression maps) is really in effect disabling a really strong feature of the software. The key editor improvements will help you to add controller expression, etc., but if notation is not the end goal I think it would still be better to do detail MIDI editing in a DAW.


My issue is that I hate composing/orchestrating in the DAW, but I also don't like to separate out orchestration and production/mockup into two different steps. This is the motivation behind why I'm trying to do things this way. I think I'll just bite the bullet and try it out. At worst I've lost a few days of my time. 

The easiest solution to this would be to finally have a connection between Cubase and Dorico, but I'm not holding my breath to see that implemented any time soon.


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## Ivan Duch (Oct 26, 2022)

I think it's probably doable yes, I would love to hear how it goes. 

In my experience so far I haven't been able to avoid the DAW altogether for the type of music I write so I might as well export midi or stems from Dorico and continue there once the writing and orchestrations are done. The midi capabilities of a DAW are definitely a step ahead of Dorico when it comes to messing around with CCs and layering libraries.


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## pefra (Oct 26, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> What I've been doing myself is writing with noteperformer, then switching to my custom playback template (which uses my libraries) and from there I either export the midi to a DAW or send an initial mockup directly from Dorico to clients for approval before properly producing it on DAW.





Orlu said:


> That's basically what I've been doing (orchestration in Dorico with Noteperformer, then mockup in the DAW), but I personally don't like to separate orchestration and mockup, I much prefer doing both at the same time.
> ...
> My issue is that I hate composing/orchestrating in the DAW, but I also don't like to separate out orchestration and production/mockup into two different steps.


Hi there,
perhaps I can direct your attention to this thread where we are also talking about this point. Maybe this thread is also for you 
cheers







Is this 2022? Or still 1996?


Hi there, I learned Cubase in the last century and quickly found myself writing scores with Cubase VST 5. Back then the first VST's arrived, which have since evolved into wonderful libraries witch you can use to create almost perfect mockups of orchestral pieces. 2022 - composing (not...




vi-control.net


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## Bollen (Oct 26, 2022)

Orlu said:


> I plan on trying to do my orchestral mockups directly in Dorico. The basic idea I had was this:
> 
> I have a standard orchestral layout where everything is using Noteperformer. These are basically my "Sketch Tracks", which I use to quickly try out ideas.
> 
> ...


Well, I have never used hundreds of tracks, but nearly. Unlike you, I generally use the general staff for the full written instrument and another one below for keyswitches and other playback things that don't match notation e.g. slurs, gliss, extended techniques, etc.

In my experience Dorico has no problem with vertical numbers, but gets pretty slow with horizontal i.e. several hundred instruments on a short composition will behave much better/faster than a quarter of the instruments on a composition with a thousand bars (measures).

Also a note: I stopped using DAWs for mockups since Dorico 3 and never looked back!


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## Ivan Duch (Oct 26, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Also a note: I stopped using DAWs for mockups since Dorico 3 and never looked back!


That's promising. Do you perform CCs manually? How do you approach expression, etc, etc? Are you using VEP?


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## Bollen (Oct 26, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> That's promising. Do you perform CCs manually? How do you approach expression, etc, etc? Are you using VEP?


Yes, VEP and I write/draw everything manually. It's like sculpting for me and I treat it as if I were rehearsing with the musicians themselves! I'm so grateful that you can have these amazing renditions these days from a notation program.


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## ed buller (Oct 26, 2022)

Orlu said:


> Since I want to use single articulation patches I would end up with up to 20 articulations per instrument. My worry is that Dorico's UI will grind to a halt with so many players (even though I won't ever show them all at the same time since they are hidden through the filtering system).


so I'd recommend for instance you have one staff for 1st Violins. You then use "popovers" to change the sound. This will access whatever libraries you want. You are limited to 1 port and 16 midi channels , bust as you can use keyswitches or program changes or both you can have a lot of patches all running of one staff.






I have 12 channels of Just 1st Violins, That's about 60 separate articulations...all off one staff. Works great. My largest Template is Pretty Big






You will need VSL ensemble pro to do this. But it is Sooooooooooooooooooooo worth it

best

ed


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## José Herring (Oct 26, 2022)

ed buller said:


> so I'd recommend for instance you have one staff for 1st Violins. You then use "popovers" to change the sound. This will access whatever libraries you want. You are limited to 1 port and 16 midi channels , bust as you can use keyswitches or program changes or both you can have a lot of patches all running of one staff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are the man on this. It's got my inspired to try this. 

Are you able to do different midi offsets on each articulation? If not then how do you compensate for say your stacc having a different midi offset than your legatos?


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## ed buller (Oct 26, 2022)

José Herring said:


> You are the man on this. It's got my inspired to try this.
> 
> Are you able to do different midi offsets on each articulation? If not then how do you compensate for say your stacc having a different midi offset than your legatos?


I'm not sure how to do that. But so far it hasn't been a noticeable problem as I have pretty muched ditched any library that isn't in the ballpark. You can move midi data and NOT the notes if it drives you nuts on any specific section. 

Best

e


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## José Herring (Oct 26, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I'm not sure how to do that. But so far it hasn't been a noticeable problem as I have pretty muched ditched any library that isn't in the ballpark. You can move midi data and NOT the notes if it drives you nuts on any specific section.
> 
> Best
> 
> e


Thank you for your response.

I would love to hear some of the work you are doing with this setup. I know you posted that quite excellent Bernard Hermann type piece. Is there anything else you have posted?


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## ed buller (Oct 26, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Thank you for your response.
> 
> I would love to hear some of the work you are doing with this setup. I know you posted that quite excellent Bernard Hermann type piece. Is there anything else you have posted?


Hi

no I'm sorry. I'm working for a client at the moment so I can't share !


best

e


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## Ivan Duch (Oct 26, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I'd recommend for instance you have one staff for 1st Violins. You then use "popovers" to change the sound.


Do you do that with instruments like solo flutes for instance? Today I started working on adding single instruments routed to my different instruments in VEP as well, not just switching between them using playing techniques. 

The issue I encounter with the popover approach is that sometimes it gets a bit convoluted with the whole appassionata+legato for example, and I get some errors during playback when doing that.

The other issue is that when you click on the staff to play the instrument it defaults to the main one, it doesn't play the exact playing technique (at least on my end)


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## ed buller (Oct 26, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> The issue I encounter with the popover approach is that sometimes it gets a bit convoluted with the whole appassionata+legato for example, and I get some errors during playback when doing that.


Yes it can be fiddly but it does work. Legato is temperamental. You must makes sure you specify which one carefully 



Ivan Duch said:


> The other issue is that when you click on the staff to play the instrument it defaults to the main one, it doesn't play the exact playing technique (at least on my end)


Yes that always happens which IS annoying. I'm not sure how that will get fixed

best

e


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## synergy543 (Oct 27, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I'd recommend for instance you have one staff for 1st Violins. You then use "popovers" to change the sound. This will access whatever libraries you want. You are limited to 1 port and 16 midi channels , bust as you can use keyswitches or program changes or both you can have a lot of patches all running of one staff.


Ed, I get that you're using VE Pro to host several different string libraries. However, how are you using Dorico "popovers" to switch between these using a single Dorico staff? Which popover? Each lib would need to be on a different MIDI channel in VE Pro. So what instruction are you putting in a popover that would switch between VE Pro MIDI channels? Clearly I'm missing something from your description. Can you enlighten me?


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## Ivan Duch (Oct 27, 2022)

synergy543 said:


> Ed, I get that you're using VE Pro to host several different string libraries. However, how are you using Dorico "popovers" to switch between these using a single Dorico staff? Which popover? Each lib would need to be on a different MIDI channel in VE Pro. So what instruction are you putting in a popover that would switch between VE Pro MIDI channels? Clearly I'm missing something from your description. Can you enlighten me?


You pick a base library so to speak, for example, BBCSO Strings, let's say that one is in port 1 channel 1. You can switch between articulations of BBCSO with key switches, but when you want to access articulations from another library, say Appassionata, you just switch to another midi channel. All of that is done from the expression maps you can create within Dorico. 
The key is to keep everything within the same midi port, the expression maps can't switch ports, only channels (as far as I know)


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## synergy543 (Oct 27, 2022)

Thanks Ivan. I "kinda" get what you're saying but not enough to replicate it. I think I don't know enough yet about creating Expression Maps within Dorico so I need to study and digest this. Maybe we can convince John Barron to do a step-by-step walkthrough of tips like this for dummy's like me.


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## ed buller (Oct 28, 2022)

synergy543 said:


> Ed, I get that you're using VE Pro to host several different string libraries. However, how are you using Dorico "popovers" to switch between these using a single Dorico staff? Which popover? Each lib would need to be on a different MIDI channel in VE Pro. So what instruction are you putting in a popover that would switch between VE Pro MIDI channels? Clearly I'm missing something from your description. Can you enlighten me?





synergy543 said:


> Thanks Ivan. I "kinda" get what you're saying but not enough to replicate it. I think I don't know enough yet about creating Expression Maps within Dorico so I need to study and digest this. Maybe we can convince John Barron to do a step-by-step walkthrough of tips like this for dummy's like me.


*How to make an expression map:*

This is a multi stage process.

The goal is to be able to use a Symbol or text above Notes to change a patch in your sampler.

Depending on your computer chops and general mood you might need to set aside some time to do this. Maybe get some groceries in and take the phone off the hook. Plan on it taking anywhere from 5 mins to five months !

Before we start please repeat after me:

*IT DOES NOT WORK BECAUSE I MADE A MISTAKE !*

As annoying as it is to admit it's also rather useful to acknowledge this. You can proceed safe in the certainty that if you do this correctly IT WILL WORK !

stage1


Go to WRITE/Library/Playing Techniques :

this should appear: If it doesn't you have already gone wrong !





Top left is category . Select string. At the bottom left click on the plus button . It will say "new playing technique" . Fill this in. Let's go for "jete".....fast bowing. Read through the various dialog boxes. Basically you are making either a text or graphic to put over either one note or several and linking it to a playback technique. All on this page.

Lets go for text

Fill in Type Text. Write "jete" in the next box . Pick the font in the next drop down
fill in "popover text".

Select playback technique !

Now you haven't made this yet. This is Dorico being thorough . It imagines a situation where in the score you might want to boast about having all these fancy techniques but in your meagre sample library they will all be using "short strings" . But that's not us.

So Click on "edit" Next to "playback Technique" 

and now we see this:






Again ...if you don't ......you HAVE made a mistake.

Now we do the same

Technique ( top left ) will be "length"

bottom left , click on the plus and make a new technique called Jete. This is what talks to the samples and you will need it. If you didn't have more than one sample it's here that you'd use "short string"

Now save and go back to "playing techniques to make sure they are connected.

It should look like this. Again..if it doesn't you have made a mistake:






So Now we have created a popover and linked it to a playing technique .

Have a rest:

Now Clik on the PLAY tab at the top and move over to the midi window.


We are now going to link this to a sample .

Library/Expression maps






Now make sure on the left hand side we are on the right instrument . Violins 1.


Same stuff.Click on the plus "add base switch"

Select jete from the list. If It's not there something has gone wrong and you need to find out what !

Once selected : Assign it to the right sound:






Also here you can add the CC data. If ( like me ) it's coming from a different library specify what midi channel. ( remember that if you do this for one you MUST do it for all) . And select key switch or program .

Now the last and VITAL part. Once saved this "expresion map data" must be loaded in the correct midi slot.






select the "cog" under the correct VST

e


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## ed buller (Oct 28, 2022)

and insert your expression map in the correct port . At that point this should all work. You need to save The endpoint and it will always be there. I can't lie. This is fiddly but it does work and it's so worth it. The realism you get from freeing up all your samples and doing your best to balance them is soooooooo liberating . As once it's done....it's done and you can just write

best

ed


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