# Power Cables



## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 14, 2016)

This summer while I was in LA I spent quite a bit of time with someone who builds studios, speakers, and cables. I think he works mostly with mastering studios where there's a lot taken from the hifi audiophile world. One of his main products are power cables which he provides for some of the best mastering studios in LA. 

I was very skeptical about these sorts of things and didn't think that cables could make any meaningful difference (why would I shell out so much money for Mogami cables when I can use a $10 cable...) until I did a blind test comparing his power cables with stock power cables on the Quested monitors I was using there. I was able to pick out the cable 4/5 times. To me that's enough for me to think that I was in fact hearing a difference (rather than it being a random coincidence that I got that many right). I was able to get a great deal on some power cables which I would have otherwise never have been able to afford so now I'm using his power cables on my Dynaudio monitors and they most certainly make a difference. I learned a bit about how the cables work to improve the sound but I'm not a liberty to disclose any trade secrets. I'm not sure how the cables I got compare to others on the market price wise and performance wise but I imagine they're similar to Vovox cables. I'm also using his cables for the line level interconnects but I've never done A/B testing so I'm not sure how much of a difference they make. There are some "lower end" mic cables I got from him which blow other cables like Mogami out of the water so I can't even imagine what a great mic cable sounds like. 

The reason I'm posting this today is that there was a Pensado's Place episode released today on power cables which goes to show that it's not just snake oil. I don't think most people on here will be interested in spending thousands of dollars on a handful of cables but for those that do a lot of mixing (or even just hifi listening) it's something worth considering. One of the scoring mixers I highly respect auditioned these power cables and found the difference to be negligible and just stuck with stock cables so they're by no means necessary. 

Here's the video:


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## CACKLAND (Oct 14, 2016)

As an audio engineer, quality cables makes a definite difference to my ears. Both for recording and playback. 

+1 for Mogami


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 14, 2016)

CACKLAND said:


> As an audio engineer, quality cables makes a definite difference to my ears. Both for recording and playback.
> 
> +1 for Mogami



I'd encourage you to try cables that are better than Mogami if you can. Something like Vovox. In my tests I found cables up to and including Mogami to smear things together. It sounds good on something like vocals but for something like a classical recording I'd want to preserve the clarity.


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## OleJoergensen (Oct 14, 2016)

Thank you for sharing.
I look forward to watch it. It is an interesting subject with cables and if more expensive/ better builds cable does a different.


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## JE Martinsen (Oct 14, 2016)

To be honest this sounds like snake oil to me. Good quality audio cables? Certainly! But also in that area I think you eventually come to a (price) point where the audible differences are more or less a product of our own imagination. If I had paid an almost unbelievable sum of money for an audio cable that is backed by all sorts of fantastic claims by the manufacturer, I know I would be all the more willing to "defend" that purchase to myself by becoming a believer even if I cannot actually hear a difference between a good quality cable and the "high end" super-expensive quality cable. But that's me.

But $199 power cables? I have the greatest respect for Mr. Pensado and to me his videos are very learningful and informative. But when they talk about a more distinct panning in the mix, difference in phase relationship, reverb tails.. Well, that sound quite exotic to me as we are indeed talking about a power cable here. But again, that's just me and I'm far from an expert in this field. Maybe if I had the possibility to experience the magic for myself in a blind test? I suspect my ears wouldn't be able to pick up any difference though. But I would certainly be willing to give it a go.

Some of ESP's claims on their website are rather over the top in my humble opinion, and that's usually what makes boring and unimaginative people like me sceptical as well.. Here's what they write about their $199 MusicChord-PRO :

"MusicCord-PRO _unleashes_ your sound! It affords a signifcant expansion of your component's overall performance envelope. Think of MusicCord-PRO as a line conditioner in a power cord, but better! MusicCord-PRO filters out phase distortions yet increases transient current delivery!"

"With MusicCord-PRO, your amplifier will be capable of playing louder yet effortless. You'll experience enhanced clarity with fuller, fatter tone. And the bass is extended and tight! Your component will more faithfully communicate the vitality and emotion of the music. In fact, musicians have commented that with MusicCord-PRO connected to their amp, they don't have to work as hard to express themselves because macro and micro dynamics are enhanced."

It's easy to forget that we're still talking about a power cable here.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Oct 14, 2016)

placebo bs


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## synthpunk (Oct 14, 2016)

YMMV

I have a $100 Harmonic Technology power cord (used) on my UAD Apollo. The difference is slight IMHO. This was leftover from a hifi system where I thought the HT Pro11 pc made more of a difference on some hi end components like cd players, preamps, etc. I now use vintage McIntosh, and DIY SE tube components that do not seem to be affected by pc's.

One other note, if anyone does try this, give the cables time for break in.


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## chillbot (Oct 14, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I was able to pick out the cable 4/5 times. To me that's enough for me to think that I was in fact hearing a difference (rather than it being a random coincidence that I got that many right).



This is a great test and I am super curious about this.... however I wish you had done it 50 times. 4/5 is perfectly within the realm of blind chance, I think it's roughly 16% or so. 48/50 would have been something.


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## tack (Oct 14, 2016)

Yes, 5 trials just isn't enough. Also the protocol used for blinding matters a great deal. Even small procedural errors can completely invalidate the results.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 14, 2016)

For the longest time, I bought very basic instrument cables for my guitar. I didn't think there would be enough of a difference to justify the extra cost. I was wrong. I can tell a huge difference between a basic instrument cable, and a Mogami cable. Clarity, accurate frequencies, and noise reduction were remarkably apparent when I made the switch. I wouldn't be surprised If the same was true for power cables. I do think you get to a certain point where the sound quality plateaus, yet the cost continues to elevates for certain cables, so It's probably wise to be very selective.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Oct 14, 2016)

synthpunk said:


> give the cables time for break in.



that's not scientific...


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## synthpunk (Oct 14, 2016)

So where is your white paper on how it is not ? 



Gabriel Oliveira said:


> that's not scientific...


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Oct 14, 2016)

synthpunk said:


> So where is your white paper on how it is not ?



www.google.com


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## synthpunk (Oct 14, 2016)

Trolling.



Gabriel Oliveira said:


> www.google.com


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Oct 14, 2016)

synthpunk said:


> Trolling.



I don't have time to educate you. Seek knowledge and do your research, I did mine


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 14, 2016)

The greatest *power* of these high end power cables, I find, is that _somehow _they are able to heal all the adverse effects of the cheapest-they-could-find electricity cables in the streets leading up to your house, and those in the walls of your house/studio leading to the sockets into which we all are plugging these beauties with so much joy.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 14, 2016)

Scrianinoff said:


> The greatest *power* of these high end power cables, I find, is that _somehow _they are able to heal all the adverse effects of the cheapest-they-could-find electricity cables in the streets leading up to your house, and those in the walls of your house/studio leading to the sockets into which we all are plugging these beauties with so much joy.



It's not about the last 6" of cable, it's about being the first 6" of cable! It essentially works to filter and steady the signal.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 14, 2016)

chillbot said:


> This is a great test and I am super curious about this.... however I wish you had done it 50 times. 4/5 is perfectly within the realm of blind chance, I think it's roughly 16% or so. 48/50 would have been something.



I spent about 2 hours repeatedly listening to 15 seconds of music in order to pick up on the differences. The blind test was just to confirm that I wasn't tricking myself into hearings something so I'm confident that it wasn't just a fluke. 

I looked again at the sheet we used for testing and remembered that it was actually 5/6 and the last one I got wrong because I thought "he's not gonna put the same one 3 times in a row.It must be the other." That does however show that the difference is very slight and easy to trick yourself into hearing something.


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 14, 2016)

Of course it is, as I said, that's why they bring us so much joy!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 14, 2016)

JE Martinsen said:


> To be honest this sounds like snake oil to me. Good quality audio cables? Certainly! But also in that area I think you eventually come to a (price) point where the audible differences are more or less a product of our own imagination. If I had paid an almost unbelievable sum of money for an audio cable that is backed by all sorts of fantastic claims by the manufacturer, I know I would be all the more willing to "defend" that purchase to myself by becoming a believer even if I cannot actually hear a difference between a good quality cable and the "high end" super-expensive quality cable. But that's me.
> 
> But $199 power cables? I have the greatest respect for Mr. Pensado and to me his videos are very learningful and informative. But when they talk about a more distinct panning in the mix, difference in phase relationship, reverb tails.. Well, that sound quite exotic to me as we are indeed talking about a power cable here. But again, that's just me and I'm far from an expert in this field. Maybe if I had the possibility to experience the magic for myself in a blind test? I suspect my ears wouldn't be able to pick up any difference though. But I would certainly be willing to give it a go.
> 
> ...



It changes how your devices operate and basically fixes phase issues introduced by bad cables as I understand it. Think about the differences between a minimum phase and a linear phase EQ. The difference is there. I'm not sure about power cables but with other cables one of the biggest factors is capacitance. Just think about it. The cable is absorbing the electricity and then later releasing it. That's gonna cause phase problems! 

Undertone Audio has a guitar cable with variable capacitance. You can hear the demos on their website. The only thing to keep in mind is that their claims of super low capacitance on the lowest setting is 10x more than on other cables so it can get even more towards that sound using more expensive cables like Vovox. 

http://www.undertoneaudio.com/products/vari-cap-instrument-cable


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 14, 2016)

Scrianinoff said:


> Of course it is, as I said, that's why they bring us so much joy!


 
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic about it


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 14, 2016)

All kidding aside, anytime proper "double blind tests" are set up, all effects miraculously disappear. 

You need to believe in this kind of thing in order for it to be able to bring joy. It is everyone's choice to believe or not. I always find it a pity when people start to believe in these things, I think they deserve better. Charlatans have been here since the dawn of time, once fallen for it, cognitive dissonance will lead you to buy in even more, which strengthens the cognitive dissonance. Stop it right now.


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## wst3 (Oct 14, 2016)

Wholey Cow!!!!

I can not believe I am reading about $199 power cables here, much less that people are buying them. There is so much that is wrong with the idea of a $199 power cable I don't even know where to start!

There is NO filtering going on is a well manufactured cable - quite the opposite, a well manufactured cable provides a minimal impedance (zero would be nice, but it gets awfully cold<G>) to current flow.

There is a very real, well understood benefit to twisting the conductors in ANY cable, but beyond that there are very few things that can be done to reduce noise on the power line.

The argument that the first (or last) six feet of cable is going to somehow overcome the miles of cable that bring power from your friendly neighborhood generating station is beyond belief.

The arguments about conductor size or materials are easily debunked, it is basic physics, anyone that survived high school physics can figure this out for themselves.

I have taken part in double blind ABX tests of power cables, microphone cables, line level cables, guitar cables, and loudspeaker cables. In every single one of them my friends and I (and we all came in expecting nothing) heard differences. Remarkable!

Cables for very low level signals seem to make the biggest difference. While I won't spend mega-bucks I do buy Gotham or Canare pretty much exclusively. I believe there is a difference, but truth is my personal studio is not up to the task of making those differences obvious.

Line level audio - once you get rid of the foil shield there is little difference, although I tend to use larger gauge cables than some. I doubt that there is an audible difference, but it makes me feel better, and they are more difficult to damage. And in this case the results of the test were just barely significant, I'm not sure we could have repeated them. Wish we had tried.

Loudspeaker cables - the test was rigged. I was kind of disappointed, they were comparing Monster Cable to damaged #20 AWG zip-cable. When we compared off the shelf #12AWG cables from the local hardware store there was no discernible difference. Monster cable looks cool - and if your loudspeaker cables are visible there is an argument to be made for spending a little more to make it look cool for your clients.

Power Cables - rigged again... damaged and undersized cables compared to the premium cable. And even with that advantage the difference was subtle, and only then at pretty high listening levels, and only for devices that drew significant current. In fact the 'control group' cable got hot, not just warm.

I don't need to prove the fallacy of $199 power cables - the very concept ignores the basic laws of physics.

I seldom get excited when I see "something wrong on the internet" - but when I see folks throwing away money I do get concerned. The other time I will always speak up is when someone suggests defeating safety grounding to improve signal to noise ratio in a device or system.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 14, 2016)

Power cables, that's hard to believe.

But audio cables actually can make a pretty serious difference. I've heard it, I can demonstrate it here, I've taken part in double-blind nerdfests, and after at least ten internet fights I don't care whether anyone believes me.  Furthermore, I have little interest in someone who tells someone else he/she didn't hear something he/she heard very plainly without a double-blind test. It's the same argument every time: you can fool yourself, but you can also hear things sometimes that don't make sense.

Why did five people with trained ears at a nerdfest all report hearing the same differences between files transferred out and back into an audio interface through different digital cables? We all wrote down the same things. The files even canceled audibly!

Who knows. There's more BS going around than not, but you can also hear some things that are very hard to explain - even though they make zero difference in the real world.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 14, 2016)

I don't see how people can be so closed off to the idea that a power cable can make a difference yet readily accept that a $5 mic cable is different to a $50 Mogami cable. The cables that come with all of our gear are equivalent to the $5 cable. I'm not saying that we should be getting $4000 power cables (which do exist) since there is a point where people are just seeing how much platinum they can shove into a cable and still have people buy them. If you don't think that there's any improvement to me made with a different power cable then there's no point in getting anything better than $5 cables for all of your studio. Considering that it's driving so many components it's hard to believe that it can't make a difference. There are many people who believe that using different amps and different components in things like crossovers also don't make a difference. You can't form an opinion before truly testing it.

I've spent countless hours comparing converters and clocking and didn't hear any difference between RME converters and Behringer converters. The files come nowhere near to nulling yet I can't pick them out in a blind test. Based on this alone I would conclude that converters and clocking make no difference and are equally pointless in upgrading. With power cables on monitors I was able to hear a difference which to me would mean that it makes more of a difference to me than different converters did.

Honestly I didn't want to hear a difference. I thought these cables looked ridiculous and thought it was ridiculous that my friend's studio used all of these custom cables. I thought he was being scammed by being made to believe that these cables were any better. I thought even something like Mogami would be a waste of money (although I still think Mogami isn't very good compared to other cables) since any cable is fine. Then I took the time to objectively listen. I still am very skeptical with these things and don't believe what I can't hear but I know that with these particular power cables on monitors I do notice a difference. I've never bothered to A/B them on my interface as I'm 99% sure I won't hear the difference it's making as I don't have the ears of a mastering engineer. I have no idea how expensive they normally are and how they compare to others.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 14, 2016)

wst3 said:


> Wholey Cow!!!!
> 
> I can not believe I am reading about $199 power cables here, much less that people are buying them. There is so much that is wrong with the idea of a $199 power cable I don't even know where to start!
> 
> ...



The fact that twisting makes a difference goes to show that there is a difference to be made. Bandwidth limiting a cable is a great idea. You don't want a 1GHz signal modulating your power cable. 

I'd say Monster cables aren't really all that different from cheap cables aside from looking cooler and being ridiculously expensive. Even Mogami is expensive for the performance that you get compared to cheaper cables. I suggest comparing with higher end cables from the audiophile/mastering world rather than the prosumer stuff you find on Sweetwater. I doubt I'd be able to differentiate between a Monster cable and something from the hardware store. 

These cables are expensive because people have spent decades developing their own secret techniques to improve their own designs. They're not very difficult or expensive to make (I did a lot of the work for my power cables although they aren't grounded since my Dynaudios are 2 pin so they were a lot simpler than grounded cables). I don't think someone would devote decades to developing this if they weren't making a difference.


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## tack (Oct 14, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I don't think someone would devote decades to developing this if they weren't making a difference.


Obvious counterargument: homeopathy.


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## storyteller (Oct 14, 2016)

*Pro Tip: *If you can solder, you can make your own better-than-Mogami cables for a tiny fraction of the price. Same goes for preamps... fwiw most every studio in Nashville built their own "Neve" preamps, etc. I'm sure the same goes for NY and LA.


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 14, 2016)

Gerhard, you wrote: "_I don't think someone would devote decades to developing this if they weren't making a difference._" 

That's already something we can work with, not a lost cause yet hopefully. 

First, it is better, as you write, that 'you do not think that someone would', instead of the more severe 'you think someone would not'. 

Second, of course he has been devoting decades to developing this. I genuinely think it is hard work getting better at selling this kind of product to people who are deprived of the required knowledge and sometimes logic to be able debunk this. Such _power selling_ talents need to be developed, imagine what they can do with decades of developing it. They could convert more and more of even less gullible people into lifetime converts. The better they develop themselves like this, the bigger the difference, foremost in their wallets, where it counts, for them.

Then again, is it all that bad? If you do not bankrupt yourself buying this electrical snake oil, or hamper yourself severely in buying the tools that you _do_ need to get your job done with enough required quality, then it is all irrelevant really. Well, you could have better spend the money on your loved ones, doing something nice. 

The escape argument I offer is, what if you find inspiration through it; although that whole inspiration thing is irrelevant if we have to _believe _Stravinsky. In fact be more like Stravinsky, I quote: "_I have learned throughout my life as a composer chiefly through my mistakes and pursuits of false assumptions, not by my exposure to founts of wisdom and knowledge._" On another note, Bach deeply believed in the favourite imaginary friend of so many people on this earth, he wrote countless cantatas and four passions on it, to mention a few. Would his music have been better or worse without it, his output bigger or smaller? Who knows, yet he was unmistakably inspired by his believes. And I love his music, not because of it, more despite of it. So in a few centuries people might feel blessed that the great composer Westphalen went on being inspired, writing his greatest works, and thankfully was not swayed in his beliefs of the power cable, by a lowly member of some old 21st century social discussion group, a member who interestingly went by a weird name, some crude smashing of two lesser composers still fashionable at that time.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 14, 2016)

Scrianinoff said:


> Gerhard, you wrote: "_I don't think someone would devote decades to developing this if they weren't making a difference._"
> 
> That's already something we can work with, not a lost cause yet hopefully.
> 
> ...



I'd say that I arrived at this on my own from wanting to debunk it! The guy who made them for me never once tried to sell me them. He knows I could never afford his cables and don't have the listening skills required to actually benefit (although that's something I'm currently trying to improve). I was staying at his place because I briefly dated his step son and there were cables sitting around which I could experiment with and I had a spare set of Questeds to use. I wanted to prove how ludicrous it was but found that there was a difference. Only then did I start asking him about how it works and what not. I didn't even know power cables were a thing outside of what he makes and had no idea how much they actually go for (a questions which he always evaded). I agree that in most cases it's completely irrelevant to one's work using them in the playback chain just like buying expensive monitors or Antelope atomic clocking is. It won't improve most people's work. You can't really take advantage of that 2% difference. It does make a difference, however, for just listening and I'd like to have the best listening environment that I can afford as an audiophile. So for that, 2% does make a difference.

My point here isn't to debate whether or not it makes a difference. I'm just trying to shine some light on a component that most people have never thought about. Whether you choose to believe that it can make a difference or not is up to you. I, for one, from now on will always consider how a piece of gear may benefit from better cables (AC or otherwise).


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 14, 2016)

Oh wow! He let you _discover the difference_ by yourself. That is really good. How can one argue with oneself! Set up a _proper _double blind experiment and check again.

What I find odd, is that you apparently hear the difference 4 out 5 times on your Dynaudio monitors. Unless there is something completely wrong with their power filtering, power supply, power supply rejection ratios in the amplifiers, etc., mind you, all at the same time, the effect between a sub-standard and the million buck per meter cable should not be audible to the finest of golden ears. What is even stranger, I find, is that you hold the engineers of such cables in higher esteem than the engineers at Dynaudio. 

Probably there is some psychological effect at play here too. Some high standing but courageous mix and mastering engineers confessed that they went through sessions in which they configured some parameters of a plugin for half an hour until they had it just right, only to find out that the plugin was never active or routed in the signal chain. Still during this half hour, they were convinced they heard all kinds of differences and were glad they picked that plugin for this difference, and glad that they spend half an hour perfecting its effect, which in the end was only imaginary. Courageous to confess, I find.

Although, as I quoted, it didn't matter all that much to Stravinsky, to start acquiring knowledge and wisdom on the subject, one could study this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance and this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitance When you understand what is written there, you will also understand why a signal cable has a definitive audible effect on the signal of a high impedance guitar pickup at the high-Z input of an amplifier, and why a power cable cannot have an audible effect on the signal of any device with proper power filtering, power supply, and power supply rejection ratios in its amplification circuitry.


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 15, 2016)

As I needed 16 channels of high quality low noise recording of some classical ensembles, and I did not have a budget of 100K to buy commercial preamps and microphones with the required clarity and noise specifications, I set out to go the diy way. I have used designs like these: http://www.synaesthesia.ca/LNschematics.html This one is from a very generous engineer, who wanted a great phono preamp, but was apparently appalled by the marketeering and charlatanism rampant in the audiophile sector. He went the diy way and made something much much better. I used his designs to base my mic preamp upon, the result, incredibly low noise and distortion, for a Behringer price, and probably even more valuable: enough knowledge not to fall for any electrical charlatan's tricks for the rest of my life. So I can wholeheartedly subscribe to what Storyteller wrote above.

If you read the section on his HPS 5.1, and especially the power regulator and its analysis in detail, then you understand that the simple transformer is connected to the electricity net with all the electrical pollution coming from it. This transformed AC signal with most of this pollution still intact is then rectified, filtered by a network of capacitors and inductors, then regulated, and further actively regulated. This then supplies the power to an extremely sensitive and extremely low noise preamp. This handful of components is enough to completely eliminate any adverse effects electrical pollution might have on such an incredibly sensitive circuit. Now how does this compare to a mere power cable having an effect on a much less sensitive circuit of a monitor speaker?


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 15, 2016)

The test there was on Quested V2108 and then I tested the cables which I had built on my Dynaudios when I got home. He had nothing to do with the tests. I took the cables from my friend's studio and had my friend do the swapping with me being blindfolded and having no talking apart from my A/B which he wrote down. I also put on ear muffs while switching cables for me to not be able to hear any sound from moving cables. I think since I did an initial trial for picking out which cable was which when first hearing the A and B I think technically I got 6/7. As a test just to confirm what I was hearing I think this was pretty fair. Considering that I was first presented with A and B as a reference and then the 6 more tests maybe this would have been considered and ABX? 

While there I was also present at amp comparisons and swapping capacitors on crossovers with identical specs from different brands and heard a difference. Makes just as little sense to me as AC cables. I know nothing about electronics and am not a fan of it so all I care about is what I can hear. I was taught to build a lower end type of mic cable so that I don't have to buy any inferior cables again but other than that I don't want to risk burning the house down. 

I would never get a cable from the brand that Pensado did as they have 6 different cables ($200 - $2000) so that is a gimmick since there isn't that much difference to be made and the cost of manufacturing won't have that much of a range but I think it's reasonable if a company has 1 or 2 models around $200. They also vary the lengths and from what I learned there is an optimal length so depending on which you choose you're loosing out on any benefits. Also, based on what I've been told, copper is the best that you're gonna get for this so using rare earth metals that audiophile cables have is nonsensical and detrimental. It all has to do with the geometry of the cable. The distance between the wires and the angle at which they cross each other affects how the electromagnetic fields interact. I think that's electronics 101. Is it not? (that's not meant to be a snarky question, I genuinely don't know)


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 15, 2016)

Reading your explanation of your testing procedure, in my understanding it is neither a double blind experiment nor ABX testing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_experiment

On yet another and final note, I do not really understand why people are using audiophool power cables instead of spending the money on a decent power filter if they have partly faulty equipment that cannot defeat power line pollution. Only one power filter needed compared to all those cables, the power filter does have a measurable effect on the noise at the power socket, whereas the effect of the power cable is close to unmeasurable and only if the power at the wall socket is already sub-standard; and then I mean the effect on the power signal itself, the effect on the audio signal will be drowned orders of magnitude below the noise floor. Better anyway is to repair or replace the partly faulty equipment. Same for ground loops by the way. Bye bye.

P.S. $200 for a power cable is _not_ reasonable, at least according to me.


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## Udo (Oct 15, 2016)

It's telling that none of the proponents of the impact of expensive power cables on sound quality have bothered to point to reputable research supporting their opinion .....


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## Hannes_F (Oct 15, 2016)

Most people tend to think that if they (halfway) know the scientific concepts of their time then they know everything, even what goes beyond. It has always been like that since ages.

A big + to ABX tests btw.


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## Tfis (Oct 15, 2016)

It's about electricity which can be measured, isn't it?
So there should be some numbers...


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## kgdrum (Oct 15, 2016)

I worked in the HIFi industry for 10+ years,I thought the idea of power cables making a difference in the sound of a system was total B.S.
Then we got a line of power conditioners & cables from a company named Shunyata Research.
The company is very smart they gave the store & sales staff several cables and conditioners to try in the store & at home in our own systems.
As sceptical as I was the difference when we put these power cords and conditioners into systems was astounding!
My scepticism turned into enthusiasm, I still have these power cables and conditioners in both my HIFi and my DAW rig. I know there's a real difference between better power cables and stock cables.
Would I spend the money that some of these cables cost if I was a consumer,probably not, some of these power cords do sell for $2k- $3k etc...
I have them and from my perspective they can make a profound difference in the sound of a system.
I have heard many explanations none of which I can honestly say I totally understand how they do what they do but I know I hear the difference with better power cords in both my HIFI system and DAW setup.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 15, 2016)

Hannes_F said:


> Most people tend to think that if they (halfway) know the scientific concepts of their time then they know everything, even what goes beyond. It has always been like that since ages.
> 
> A big + to ABX tests btw.



It's interesting to note that if you ask the guy who built my cables about anything other than power cables he'll tell you exactly what he's trying to achieve and the Do's and Don't's of that particular type of cable. Pretty much all which does have scientific backing. When it comes to power cables he'll tell you that he has no idea what's going on and that no one does. He has some theories but nothing that has been proven. He's basically tried varying every parameter he can and seen what makes an improvement and then whenever he has some new prototypes he goes to various studios around town to get people's opinions on how they compare to his older cables.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 15, 2016)

> I don't see how people can be so closed off to the idea that a power cable can make a difference yet readily accept that a $5 mic cable is different to a $50 Mogami cable.



The difference is that audio cables are carrying the actual audio signal. Your power cord is just supplying voltage to the equipment, and it generally goes through a transformer in the power supply before entering the audio circuitry.

If you look at the schematic symbol for a transformer, you'll see that it's isolated.

However, it's possible the more expensive power cable is filtering crap out of the line - the opposite of what you want a mic cable to do (you don't want capacitance) - but then my layman's intuition says that if you can hear that, it means there are bad filter caps in the power supply.

I'm not closed off to the idea that a power cable can make a difference, just highly skeptical.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 15, 2016)

By the way, I have an isolation transformer box that all my equipment is plugged into. That gets rid of hum and lets you life the ground safely, and it also isolates the AC from the city grid.

So no expensive power cables for me.  But I do have some tweaky mic/line cables that I bought (many years ago) because I heard a very real difference.


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## storyteller (Oct 15, 2016)

I don't have expensive power cables, but seeing as the power transformer is the biggest culprit of a device sounding good or bad (and working properly & efficiently) it stands to reason a more "pure" input would make for cleaner sound. If you think of it like gasoline in a sports car, the better the purity of its source of power, the better the engine will perform. Anecdoteally the idea vibes with me.

A real-world example is if you have 2 preamps that are identical in internal design, but one is designed to use DC (wall wart) versus one that is designed to use AC, the AC preamp will always perform better. Granted, technology has come a long way in minimizing the difference...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 15, 2016)

The only reason the AC preamp would perform better is if it has a better power supply. And given that it's less expensive to buy an off-the-shelf DC power transformer than to get UL approval for your power supply - to say nothing of having to isolate the supply inside the box - often that's going to be a cheaper unit.

...which isn't to say that everything with a DC power transformer is automatically cheap. That's not the case at all.


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## wst3 (Oct 15, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> The fact that twisting makes a difference goes to show that there is a difference to be made. Bandwidth limiting a cable is a great idea. You don't want a 1GHz signal modulating your power cable.



No!

Twisting PREVENTS magentic fields from forming around the power cables. It does NOTHING with respect to electric fields - this is basic (ok college level basic) physics. This is why you can use unshielded twisted pairs with complete immunity to 60 cycle noise pickup.

If a 1 GHz signal can modulate a 60 Hz 120V power cable then there is a pretty good chance you are dead if you in the same room. Again basic physics, with some basic electronics theory thrown in.

Any well manufactured cable will deliver power from the wall outlet to the equipment, there are no magic secrets for that part of the job.

Now getting clean power to the outlet is a whole other topic, and it too follows the laws of physics, but I will agree it is a little more complicated.

Why you ask?

I'm glad you did... this is one of the few topics where there are two opposing views (single point ground vs mesh ground) and they are both correct. I think that's incredibly cool!


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## wst3 (Oct 15, 2016)

Hannes_F said:


> Most people tend to think that if they (halfway) know the scientific concepts of their time then they know everything, even what goes beyond. It has always been like that since ages.



I would respectfully disagree... I do not know a single reputable audio engineer that thinks they, or anyone else for that matter, knows how sound works. We are all still trying to figure this out. We know little things, like critical distance matters, and why it matters, we know that Shannon and Nyquist didn't say half the things for which they are credited<G>, we know that we can take two audio devices and make lots of measurements and still have no idea why they sound the same - or sound different.

Granted I studied physics in college and then spent the last (too many to print) years studying audio, so I can't speak for any other fields, but I do find the dearth of snake oil salesmen in professional audio to be one of the better features. (That excludes hi-futility of course!)

Power Transfer may not be completely understood (it isn't) but it is a fairly mature field, especially at 60 Hz.



Hannes_F said:


> A big + to ABX tests btw.


It isn't perfect, but it is the best we have for subjective analysis.


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## wst3 (Oct 15, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> It's interesting to note that if you ask the guy who built my cables about anything other than power cables he'll tell you exactly what he's trying to achieve and the Do's and Don't's of that particular type of cable. Pretty much all which does have scientific backing. <snip>



Please point me to one peer reviewed paper describing what it is he is doing. In over 30 years I've yet to see a peer reviews study of the effects of different power cables. There has to be a reason for that!


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## wst3 (Oct 15, 2016)

storyteller said:


> A real-world example is if you have 2 preamps that are identical in internal design, but one is designed to use DC (wall wart) versus one that is designed to use AC, the AC preamp will always perform better. Granted, technology has come a long way in minimizing the difference...



There are at least a dozen factors in play here...

The AC powered device probably uses a linear power supply, and as a general rule most people prefer the sound of circuits powered by linear supplies. One immediate benefit is that linear supplies do not create a lot of RF hash.

The external supply is almost certainly a switching supply, it may be undersized, it may be poorly filtered, it may be ok, but that's the first place I'd look for a difference.

If you are really curious you can rule out the power supply easily - bypass the internal supply and power that device from the external supply. I'd be very curious to hear the results.

I am curious - which manufacturer makes the same preamplifier with different power options?


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## wst3 (Oct 15, 2016)

probably my last couple thoughts on this - and I hope I don't come off as mean spirited here, I mean no disrespect, I just hate to see people spend needlessly!

Audio is a combination of science and art and technology - I think that is one of the bigger factors that attracted me. And it is inexact. How inexact?

About 20 years or so ago a bunch of folks (some very well known designers included) all started installing big copper buss-bars in our consoles (yup, I did it too!) The improvement was dramatic, almost without exception. Nearly every console benefited. We all thought we were so cool<G>!

Then Neil Muncy wrote a landmark paper in 1996 - identifying, introducing really, the "Pin 1 Problem". AHA! Our big, beautiful, and stupid-expensive copper bars did solve a problem, just not the problem we thought we were solving. We thought we were providing a super low impedance path to ground (the idea came from the lighting protection industry, oddly enough). And we were, but that wasn't solving the noise problem! All we really needed to do was connect the shields outside the enclosure. I removed my copper bar (and sold it for a small profit because copper prices had gone up - the only good news in this otherwise somewhat embarrassing adventure) and connected the shields to the chassis. The result was nearly the same. Certainly the small difference between connecting to the buss-bar and the chassis was not worth the cost of a 12 foot long copper buss-bar!

The ultimate irony - Neil wasn't reporting something new and startling - he was simply pointing out that once upon a time we knew how to build a proper audio device, and somehow we forgot! I don't write about this to demonstrate that I'm an idiot (although one could draw that conclusion), but to point out that sometimes the ancients do steal our ideas - there is a lot to learn from the Bell System, BBC, and other telephony handbooks from the 1950s and early 1960s!

Also want to point out that Nick has taken a very common sense approach to power in his studio. Anyone wanting a good technical power system should start with a good isolation transformer!

Which brings up another controversial topic - symmetrical power distribution. It is used in hospitals to power really sensitive equipment. It can be used in audio facilities to further reduce the noise floor of a complex audio system. However, it is really a "last 10%" kind of solution, so I wouldn't recommend it to anyone that hasn't already implemented all the other generally accepted practices (isolated panel, isolation transformer, isolated ground outlets, star or mesh grounding, etc.) And keep in mind that those hospital devices are designed specifically to be powered from symmetrical power, most of our gear is not. Also note that symmetrical power is included in the US National Electrical Code, it may not be the case elsewhere (or necessary for that matter.)


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 15, 2016)

wst3 said:


> Please point me to one peer reviewed paper describing what it is he is doing. In over 30 years I've yet to see a peer reviews study of the effects of different power cables. There has to be a reason for that!



I think you misread what I said. He'll explain what he's doing in anything other than power cables. He has no idea what's going on in the power cables and just develops them empirically.


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## storyteller (Oct 15, 2016)

wst3 said:


> There are at least a dozen factors in play here...
> 
> The AC powered device probably uses a linear power supply, and as a general rule most people prefer the sound of circuits powered by linear supplies. One immediate benefit is that linear supplies do not create a lot of RF hash.
> 
> ...


Agreed. No arguments here.  My analogy was intended to remove most of the tech-speak variables from the equation and just give a somewhat blanket rule of thumb since most people here are composers first. Technically-speaking, you are right that with all things being even, voltage should be voltage regardless of how it got from point A to point B. But, the reality is, all things aren't usually even, hence the generalities.

As for the manufacturers... just off the top of my head, the engineers at Grace Designs told me the DC powered Lunatec v3 (their now-retired 2 channel field preamp) was identical to their most expensive AC preamps in circuitry design with the only exception being the use of a silver plated contact 5db stop knob (for field use) versus the gold plated contact free-flowing knob for studio use. There was a huge price difference per channel as well. There was also a noiticeable variance in sound for me. And, while I have not compared the engineering specs of Apogee's Duet/Quartet preamps versus their Symphony line of preamps, I'd suspect it may only be DC vs AC related changes. And, honestly, the Duet/Quartet sounds stunning even though Symphony is noticeably better. (AD/DA conversion is also a factor here too even though they both use the same Sabre chips).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 15, 2016)

Interesting posts, Mr. Bill.

It's about time!


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