# Are Midi-Orchestras blending and mixing realistically?



## PhilipeZ (Jul 30, 2013)

Hey

I'm currently going further into orchestration and found that it is much about dynamic levels, blending of instruments and how instruments stick out of the background texture.

I'm wondering whether that principles work for a midi Orchestra as well.

When finalizing the mix, I often find that the trumpet sounds unnaturally quiet and I have to raise the output level. Is the problem definitively that I set the trumpet volume initially to low or may the midi orchestra not mix realistically?
Concerning the instrument blending, one often reads that one trumpet balances with two horns. Assumed I have both the trumpet and one horn set to an output level perfectly according to reality, would two horns (with pitch shifting and transposing back by a semitone and some intonation inaccuracy I could achieve quite realistic results with two instances of the same instrument - in my eyes) balance with one trumpet in the sequencer in the same way they would do in reality.
And assumed, a sampled english horn as well as a sampled clarinet would sound exactly as in reality, would a sampled english horn together with a sampled clarinet sound exactly as a real clarinet would together with a real english horn?

When creating Midi-Mockups, my approach has always been to mix the output levels of the different instruments at the very beginning. When balance problem arise that cannot be solved by controllers, I usually change the orchestration instead of chancing output levels. However, I'm in doubt whether that method is feasible as I'm getting more and more the impression that the midi orchestra wouldn't mix realistically even if all output levels were set correctly.

Many thanks for you help


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## Beat Kaufmann (Aug 2, 2013)

Hi Philipe
I produced a lot with Midi (from 1975 - 2002). When I compose a piece today I still use my Roland Midi Modul SC88 and the Roland String-Ensemble M-SE-1. 
Example (Midi-Playback + Sopran Sax):
http://www.musik-produktion-createc.ch/downloads/d_cre_earthday.mp3

Then in 2002 I started to use samples and suddenly I had to do something what I've never done before with midi: I had to learn the mixing of all the sampled instruments to a real orchestra sound.
Listen to the Midi-Example above once more. I panned the violins to the left, the Cellos to the right, brass instruments more to center, used the built in reverb by chosing CC91 25 et voilà... But one can not speak of "doing an orchestra mix".
Listen tothis Track, done with samples. The main difference is: We now also have a 3rd dimension: "Depth". Instruments are not onle mixed from the left to the right but also from close to far. 
I believe Midi mixes could be extremely improved by using different depths as well.

So try the following things:
1. produce an audio file from each instrument you have (no reverb, no pan, no effect)
2. Import all these audio tracks into a DAW and mix them how you would use samples.
3. So create for example three depths (within group tracks) and route the brass instruments through the depth which simulates the farthest distance, the woodwinds a bit closer and the strings through depth 1 (closest).
4. Of course, panning instruments from left to the right is still necessary here as well.
But do it with the audio mix and not within Midi (see Image some orchestra instruments on a virtual stage)...

Mixing Midi this way could improve the Orchestra feeling. I also believe that clarinets will no more cover EHs and trumpets the flutes. 
No, I'm sure you will get a transparent mix from left to the right and from the front to the back.

BTW using convolution reverbs can help you easy to create different depth.

All the best
_Beat_


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2013)

Beat Kaufmann @ Fri Aug 02 said:


> Hi Philipe
> I produced a lot with Midi (from 1975 - 2002). When I compose a piece today I still use my Roland Midi Modul SC88 and the Roland String-Ensemble M-SE-1.
> Example (Midi-Playback + Sopran Sax):
> http://www.musik-produktion-createc.ch/downloads/d_cre_earthday.mp3
> ...



Beat, I think that is terrific advice =o . 

My mixes took a step up when I started converting MIDI to audio before final mixing.

I think it would be helpful to a lot of people if you expand on your approach to creating depth with convolution reverbs.


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## PhilipeZ (Aug 2, 2013)

Hey Beat,

many thanks for your reply.
I currently always try to create depth by using EQ, but it's not really successful, so I will try the convolution reverb.

I will try the audio exporting as well now and look whether it can improve transparency

Philipe


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## PhilipeZ (Aug 2, 2013)

Hm... I'm wondering whether it's really necessary to export all instruments and import them again. I'm using Vienna Ensemble and I'm routing the instruments to different audio tracks (one for the strings, for each brass and woodwind section one and some for the percussion). Usually, I use the in-built panner from Vienna Ensemble, all other effects are assigned to the audio tracks.
Now, I've created a completely dry mix (no effects, no panning) with all that audio tracks together and to me, it sounds the same as when I export each single instrument dry and mixed those single audio files together in another project.
I'm also wondering whether it makes a difference having one track for each single instrument compared to having one track for each section of similar placed and similar sounding instruments of one family... as for me, both sound the same.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Aug 2, 2013)

PhilipeZ
I thought you are working as I've done: With an external Midi-Modul which offers all sounds at one stereo output. 
Important is that you are able to treat each instrument for itself and that you are able to route it to a bus or group track you want. 
So in your case you don't need to create an audio track first, that's correct.

Here is a copy from the topic "Adding Space..." about depths.
Maybe it helps as well:

Convolution-Reverbs with their IRs can produce nice and natural distances. So using such IRs (Impuls Responses) from real rooms are great for creating different depths.
It is not necessary to use the whole IR (incl. the tail). Most time it is enough only to use the first ms (0 - 100ms or 0 - 300ms) for getting the depth.

So *one concept could be* to create 3 different depths within the DAW with groupe-channels. Route then each instrument through its certain depth. Within the output channel you can use a final reverb for giving some tail:
See the following Image. It shows you a possible routing (as I explained above)





Hope you can see the routings because of the max 480pixels :( 
Othertwise here as Download: Reverb Concept 1280 pixels

Here is an example how nice you can get depth without a lot of muddy convolution tail in the mean time. Such results you can't really get with just an "algo-" or just a convolution-reverb.
Listen to the Result different depths by changing the ER and the Dry signal
(For ERs I used the Schumann-Saal of the convolution Reverb VSL-SUITE (first 30ms), for the Tail I used the Roomworks-Reverb of Cubase (Church-Preset) with a constant level within the output channel (as tail over all so to say) 

Different depths can really help to get very transparent mixes (overdoing it is allowed).
Example1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMAkPT9ggtg

Best 
Beat


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## PhilipeZ (Aug 2, 2013)

Hey Beat,

many thanks for your advices. I have some of the waves plugins available and will try to use them (Early Reflections can be disabled in the algo verb and if offers a convolution verb as well.
That example is quite useful as well. Thanks

Philipe


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## PhilipeZ (Aug 6, 2013)

Has worked perfectly... my mixing really took a step forward with that method. Thanks!


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## Beat Kaufmann (Aug 13, 2013)

:D :D :D 
_Beat_


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