# Logic and the VEP limitations



## kimarnesen (Feb 9, 2018)

I’m consering going back to Logic, but I’ve read somewhere that there are some limitations on how many ports or channels you can have with VEP? I don’t know exactly what it was so could perhaps someone here explain this issue and what it’s really about?


----------



## Sami (Feb 9, 2018)

VEPro 6 does not support AU3, thus no true multiport. There is a "multiport template" which some have reported to work but I personally strongly advise against.
VSL said AU3 implementation is "high on their priority list" but they said that a year ago and nothing has happened (which I find extremely disappointing). Until then, just stack VEPro instances, a 7700k slave with 64 GB of RAM can run over 100 VEPro instances without issues if you don't ask it to do anything else, if they are run off SSD(s).


----------



## kimarnesen (Feb 9, 2018)

Sami said:


> VEPro 6 does not support AU3, thus no true multiport. There is a "multiport template" which some have reported to work but I personally strongly advise against.
> VSL said AU3 implementation is "high on their priority list" but they said that a year ago and nothing has happened (which I find extremely disappointing). Until then, just stack VEPro instances, a 7700k slave with 64 GB of RAM can run over 100 VEPro instances without issues if you don't ask it to do anything else, if they are run off SSD(s).



Thanks, so it means one VEPro instance per instrument??


----------



## Simon Ravn (Feb 9, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> Thanks, so it means one VEPro instance per instrument??



No, it means one VEP instance per 16 instruments (one MIDI port).


----------



## IFM (Feb 9, 2018)

Multiport or not I'd still run one per instance just to have ideal CPU load distribution. My method is to have articulations on different channels on one instance.


----------



## stigc56 (Feb 9, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> I’m consering going back to Logic, but I’ve read somewhere that there are some limitations on how many ports or channels you can have with VEP? I don’t know exactly what it was so could perhaps someone here explain this issue and what it’s really about?


Go back from what?


----------



## kimarnesen (Feb 9, 2018)

stigc56 said:


> Go back from what?



Cubase. I have 3 daws (Logic, Cubase, FL Studio) and it's time to choose.


----------



## Sami (Feb 9, 2018)

I was in the same boat, Cubase vs. Logic. In the end, I went with Logic cause I love it. Cubase was more of a rational choice before the articulation system (And Peter Schwartz' systems) existed.


----------



## stigc56 (Feb 9, 2018)

Well I was tempted when 10.4 was out. But it will mean that I have to redo all my VEPro setup, because Logic can't cope with more than 16 midi channels pr. instance. I think the control room feature and the listen function in Cubase is very nice, and then of course the MIDI-editor, which is simply the best. But I still waste valuable time - from time to time- on trying out Logic again. I just don't know!


----------



## Sami (Feb 9, 2018)

oh I'm totally with you... Cubase is the objectively better choice (VW SUV), Logic is just my E-type Jaguar and I can't get over it


----------



## Ashermusic (Feb 9, 2018)

Sami said:


> oh I'm totally with you... Cubase is the objectively better choice (VW SUV), Logic is just my E-type Jaguar and I can't get over it




No, it isn't, empirically. I could make you a pros and cons list of each and it would come down to what you value most.


----------



## Sami (Feb 9, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> No, it isn't, empirically. I could make you a pros and cons list of each and it would come down to what you value most.


I'm only saying it to make Logic jealous so it becomes better and we love each other even more.
In all seriousness though, the only thing truly bothering me is the lack of AU3 support by VSL, which isn't Logic's fault


----------



## Ashermusic (Feb 9, 2018)

Sami said:


> I'm only saying it to make Logic jealous so it becomes better and we love each other even more.
> In all seriousness though, the only thing truly bothering me is the lack of AU3 support by VSL, which isn't Logic's fault




There are aspects of Cubase I wish Logic had. Ditto DP. Ditto Pro Tools. And if I used either of the others I would be writing that there were aspects of the other two.

The "better choice" is always the one you are most skilled with.


----------



## stigc56 (Feb 9, 2018)

I know we have had this discussion before. It would be nice to break down a "normal" work day in processes. I mean if you have a DAW that is VERY fast in creating tracks - like SO - it would matter how many times a day you actually create tracks.
I watched this video:  And it's of course a very skilled gent Sascha Knorr and it's inspiring to see how he works. It also illustrates the effectiveness of Cubase when it comes to midi recording & editing.


----------



## whinecellar (Feb 9, 2018)

Happily chugging along with a ~750 track Logic/VEP template for years. Most of my VEP instances are 16-channel multis (either Kontakt or PLAY). With a little careful planning, it's a brilliant system. Even running off of a 2014 MacBook Pro (quad core i7 with just 16GB RAM), I never have CPU issues even at a 256 buffer...


----------



## Matt Riley (Feb 9, 2018)

stigc56 said:


> I know we have had this discussion before. It would be nice to break down a "normal" work day in processes. I mean if you have a DAW that is VERY fast in creating tracks - like SO - it would matter how many times a day you actually create tracks.
> I watched this video:  And it's of course a very skilled gent Sascha Knorr and it's inspiring to see how he works. It also illustrates the effectiveness of Cubase when it comes to midi recording & editing.



I haven't watched the whole video but what I've seen so far can be easily done in Logic and probably most of the others...


----------



## stigc56 (Feb 9, 2018)

I know it can be done very easy, BUT let me give just one example: When I record a MIDI-track I must admit that I often need to quantize afterwards. I like to use the iterative quantize in Cubase, this let me quantize the most "off" events the most and leave the events that are closest to the grid alone. Furthermore if I need *another* quantize I can hit "q" again and the process will repeat with and even more tighter result. In Cubase I don't have to select the events before I quantize, If I hit Q with nothing selected all midi gets quantized. If I Any events *only *these events will be quantized. I think that's a really clever way to handle this. I think it would involves quite some more in Logic right?


----------



## Matt Riley (Feb 9, 2018)

stigc56 said:


> I know it can be done very easy, BUT let me give just one example: When I record a MIDI-track I must admit that I often need to quantize afterwards. I like to use the iterative quantize in Cubase, this let me quantize the most "off" events the most and leave the events that are closest to the grid alone. Furthermore if I need *another* quantize I can hit "q" again and the process will repeat with and even more tighter result. In Cubase I don't have to select the events before I quantize, If I hit Q with nothing selected all midi gets quantized. If I Any events *only *these events will be quantized. I think that's a really clever way to handle this. I think it would involves quite some more in Logic right?


Logic can do all of that. Logic's "smart quantize" feature is pretty awesome. 

And you can control the amount of quantization you need. I often have Logic quantize the notes a bit as they are played so I don't have to do it later. It's non destructive so you can easily remove or adjust the quantization. I just realized that this is all a bit off topic.


----------



## kimarnesen (Feb 9, 2018)

If FL Studio had worked well with VEP I would definitely be using that, as the midi editing there is my favorite, no kidding! But it's just not possible. 

I don't know Logic much more than Cubase, but I've heard it works better on Mac, and some of the plugins are great, also I'm able to sell my Cubase license. So I just wanted to know more about the midi port issue.


----------



## kimarnesen (Feb 9, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> Happily chugging along with a ~750 track Logic/VEP template for years. Most of my VEP instances are 16-channel multis (either Kontakt or PLAY). With a little careful planning, it's a brilliant system. Even running off of a 2014 MacBook Pro (quad core i7 with just 16GB RAM), I never have CPU issues even at a 256 buffer...



Sounds interesting. What are the steps to create that in Logic?


----------



## bpford (Feb 9, 2018)

There's a long thread somewhere where whine cellar details his setup, but basically he creates a 16 channel multi timbral instrument that points to 16 different instruments in VEPro (i presume keyswitch patches mostly). The pros are you have less instances of VEPro and you don't run into Logic's 256 software instrument limit. Cons are you have to do most of your mixing/balancing in VEPro since it all returns on one stereo track. You could setup Aux returns for each instrument to have better control, but I think that leads to severe performance issues.

I do one instrument per instance, because I like to do a lot of processing in Logic and it keeps my head from exploding. If you'll be setting your template up and ignoring it for years and need the 1000+ tracks, you can do the multi approach.

Oh, I almost forgot...sometimes Logic has performance problems with large multis due to it not distributing processing across cores well. So take that into account as well.

Tinker with both and see what you like best.


----------



## kimarnesen (Feb 9, 2018)

bpford said:


> There's a long thread somewhere where whine cellar details his setup, but basically he creates a 16 channel multi timbral instrument that points to 16 different instruments in VEPro (i presume keyswitch patches mostly). The pros are you have less instances of VEPro and you don't run into Logic's 256 software instrument limit. Cons are you have to do most of your mixing/balancing in VEPro since it all returns on one stereo track. You could setup Aux returns for each instrument to have better control, but I think that leads to severe performance issues.
> 
> I do one instrument per instance, because I like to do a lot of processing in Logic and it keeps my head from exploding. If you'll be setting your template up and ignoring it for years and need the 1000+ tracks, you can do the multi approach.
> 
> ...



Thx, so I can "only" have 256 instances of VEP (and nothing else) in Logic? I was going to ask about reverb, but understand you don't mix reverb etcetera in VEP.


----------



## whinecellar (Feb 9, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> Sounds interesting. What are the steps to create that in Logic?



Very simple. Just a bunch of 16-channel multitimbral instances of the VEP plugin, each talking to the appropriate instance on my slave machines. That's it! 

Until 10.4 came out, I used to have all my instrument groups in folders (violins, violas, celli & basses, tutti sections & FX, hi brass, lo brass, etc.) - but I've finally done away with that and now use "hide groups" to organize those instead. That way I can just hit a button for each and only see what I want.


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 9, 2018)

fyi. there is also te multi port vep template which lets you have 1000+ instruments. 
https://www.vsl.co.at/community/pos...iport-Songs-for-Logic-PRO-X-10-1?=#post237896

you send each midi to a few VEP instances that have all the instruments loaded and then you create a few audio channels return to get "stem" (mix downs) audio in logic. 

thats the classic (midi module) approach which i think its what most poeple in cubase use, if im not mistaken. 


I do like whinecellar as well. mainly becuase i can do bounce in place and continue working with audio. 
I do 16 channel groups. so short strings from different libraries would in one 16 channel kontakt instrument. or all strings articulation i like from a library in one or two instances. 

i havent tried that level which bpford is talking about. but if amount of tracks is a concern you can also do a mix of one instance per instrument and 1 instance w 16 inxtruments if it makes sense.


----------



## kimarnesen (Feb 9, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> Very simple. Just a bunch of 16-channel multitimbral instances of the VEP plugin, each talking to the appropriate instance on my slave machines. That's it!
> 
> Until 10.4 came out, I used to have all my instrument groups in folders (violins, violas, celli & basses, tutti sections & FX, hi brass, lo brass, etc.) - but I've finally done away with that and now use "hide groups" to organize those instead. That way I can just hit a button for each and only see what I want.



Thanks,

I've tested your approach and it works well. I wanted to have both the midi and audio on the same mixer channel, so I selected the Aux channels and 'created tracks'. Do you do that as well?

Edit: I regretted creating tracks of the Aux channels, as you can't enable record to them at play several tracks at once. At least not to my knowledge.


----------



## Ashermusic (Feb 9, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> fyi. there is also te multi port vep template which lets you have 1000+ instruments.
> https://www.vsl.co.at/community/pos...iport-Songs-for-Logic-PRO-X-10-1?=#post237896



Avoid it like the plague.


----------



## tav.one (Feb 10, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> now use "hide groups" to organize those instead.



I've been hearing about this in threads and am pretty interested in it. Googled it but couldn't find a tutorial.
Can you link me to anything related to Hide Groups, how to make the best use of them or use cases?


----------



## whinecellar (Feb 10, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> Avoid it like the plague.



Couldn’t agree more


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK (Feb 10, 2018)

Sami said:


> oh I'm totally with you... Cubase is the objectively better choice (VW SUV), Logic is just my E-type Jaguar and I can't get over it


I have to say extensively trying out both and trying to get to the bottom of my internal debate, I have found that Cubase overall performs better on Windows systems. But I also don't like how I have to own some third-party system to be able to have MIDI ports for Windows (something still have not figured out 100%)

I run Lemur with Composer Tools Pro and MetaGrid IO, but I cannot figure out how to get the same setup (using my iPad as my controller) in windows.

I find that on macOS Logic Pro X performs far better and uses my Mac Pro's resources much more efficiently.

NB: I have tested Cubase on my Mac Pro under:
macOS Sierra 10.12.6
Windows 8.1
Windows 10 1703 + 1709 Creators Updates

on my PC:
macOS Sierra 10.12.6 (Hackintosh stable using Clover setup)
Windows 10 1703 + 1709

Both with my Focusrite Pro 24 and my iPad Air 1st gen

Conclusion is that Cubase performs best on Windows with the lowest load and Logic wins on my Mac Pro 12-Core


----------



## whinecellar (Feb 10, 2018)

itstav said:


> I've been hearing about this in threads and am pretty interested in it. Googled it but couldn't find a tutorial.
> Can you link me to anything related to Hide Groups, how to make the best use of them or use cases?



See this post, and the one a few above it - I explain it there 

#413


----------



## tav.one (Feb 10, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> See this post, and the one a few above it - I explain it there
> 
> #413



Wow! large template makes much more sense with this...thanks Jim

OT: I like your signature, clean balance of font size & formatting.


----------



## Akarin (Feb 14, 2018)

Let me hijack the thread... I just posted a video tutorial that explains step-by-step how to connect a slave to your main computer, set up VEPro and connect to it from both Logic (using a multitimbral instrument and outputting each VST on a separate aux track) and Cubase:


----------



## kimarnesen (Feb 19, 2018)

whinecellar said:


> Very simple. Just a bunch of 16-channel multitimbral instances of the VEP plugin, each talking to the appropriate instance on my slave machines. That's it!
> 
> Until 10.4 came out, I used to have all my instrument groups in folders (violins, violas, celli & basses, tutti sections & FX, hi brass, lo brass, etc.) - but I've finally done away with that and now use "hide groups" to organize those instead. That way I can just hit a button for each and only see what I want.



Do you create aux channels for each track in Logic, so you can mute and solo, and adjust volume in the arrange window or inspector, and do some mixing of independent tracks in the mixer? And if so, how do you deal with the limit of 256 aux channels?


----------



## whinecellar (Feb 19, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> Do you create aux channels for each track in Logic, so you can mute and solo, and adjust volume in the arrange window or inspector, and do some mixing of independent tracks in the mixer? And if so, how do you deal with the limit of 256 aux channels?



No, never. I tried messing with auxes/multi-out VIs years ago when I first built a large template, and it just slowed everything down and made things far more complicated than they need to be.

Instead, I do all my pre-mixing, balancing, panning, etc. right in each VEP instance before it even gets to Logic. When I add a new library to my template, I take the time to do that stuff then and there. If I need to solo or mute something, I do it by region instead of channel strip. However, because of the way I build my VEP instances (by instrument type/library), I can use channel strip solo 99% of the time.

If I want to further treat a part, add discrete FX, etc., I just do a quick bounce in place (takes seconds at the most), and then do whatever I want to the resulting audio.

Working this way keeps things extremely efficient and keeps Logic much better behaved, even with a 769-track template.


----------



## Mike Marino (Feb 19, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> Avoid it like the plague.


Why? Just curious.


----------



## Ashermusic (Feb 19, 2018)

Mike Marino said:


> Why? Just curious.




Because it breaks down, with large projects (even VSL admits this) and is an inefficient way to work.


----------



## Sami (Feb 19, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> Because it breaks down, with large projects (even VSL admits this) and is an inefficient way to work.


Does anyone actually have an ETA for when they will implement AU3 support?


----------



## Ashermusic (Feb 19, 2018)

Sami said:


> Does anyone actually have an ETA for when they will implement AU3 support?



No, they said it is on their to do list but right now they are focused totally on the Syncron matters.


----------



## Sami (Feb 19, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> No, they said it is on their to do list but right now they are focused totally on the Syncron matters.


The have been saying this for, what, a year now?


----------



## Ashermusic (Feb 19, 2018)

Sami said:


> The have been saying this for, what, a year now?



They are a business. New libraries bring in money if they are good AU 3 brings them very little as it only matters to a small number. Truthfully, even I don't care much about it.


----------

