# Considering moving to Mac - advice wanted!



## ModalRealist (Aug 5, 2022)

Hi folks, could use some advice on this topic

Background/context: I use Macs at work (tech company). My music-making device is a ginormous PC I initially built for gaming in 2011. I've replaced pretty much every component over that time (current spec: Ryzen 5-something [which is too slow...], 64GB RAM, 1070 GPU). I increasingly cannot stand Windows. The UI, the bugs, the intrusiveness... and increasingly I am seeing stability issues, audio crackling, you name it. I've just had enough.

Preliminary question: is there any alternative to Windows other than Macs for audio production? I am assuming not as, for example, I really like using VE Pro alongside Dorico and/or a DAW (usually Cubase), and I am pretty certain VEPro doesn't support Linux.

Main question: what do people recommend in the Mac space for orchestral mockup production? I use Cubase right now but am very open to switching as long as MIDI editing is good. I don't typically max out my 64GB of RAM on the Win 11 PC. My go-to libraries are VSL (VI and Synchron), Infinite, and Spitfire's Studio series (which is the biggest RAM hog).

In your collective wisdom, what would be your suggestion? I am open to anything from "take the hit and get a studio" to "wire a Mini to the Win 11 as a slave for VE Pro" to a MacBook. Your suggestions and advice are highly appreciated!


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## jaketanner (Aug 5, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


> Hi folks, could use some advice on this topic
> 
> Background/context: I use Macs at work (tech company). My music-making device is a ginormous PC I initially built for gaming in 2011. I've replaced pretty much every component over that time (current spec: Ryzen 5-something [which is too slow...], 64GB RAM, 1070 GPU). I increasingly cannot stand Windows. The UI, the bugs, the intrusiveness... and increasingly I am seeing stability issues, audio crackling, you name it. I've just had enough.
> 
> ...


I've been using Apple computers for the last 20+ years. I am a pro engineer/mixer and composer....I have literally never once seen a PC computer in a pro studio. Not saying they don't exist somewhere, but if you want to be like the rest of the recording world, Apple is it. However, with composing and personal studio work, anything goes. It comes down to your workflow and comfort level with the OS. 

This has been a long time debate and there are pros and cons on both sides...but in my opinion, when you have hundreds or thousands of companies making their own version of a PC, and parts...something is bound to happen. Apple is Apple...very strict guidelines for releasing something that officially works with Apple...yes, it is more expensive (mostly), but things work as i expected, and if not, you can take it in to the Apple store and meet with someone that can troubleshoot it...rather than go to a local PC repair and hope for the best. Of course this is for people that don't mess with PCs. 

There are frustrating things that Apple has done over the years to really stifle the upgradability of their computers....and we are all pissed about it, but it is what it is. RAM soldered to the motherboard and drives too....some models have it where you can change the RAM, but some are not as simple, but can be done. So make sure you get what you want when you buy it, in terms of disk size. For the most part, you can change the RAM on Intel models (2018 mac mini for example), but the new M1/2 computers you are stuck with what you order. 

Sorry for the long post...but the bottom line, is that I personally believe Apple computers are better for my needs...I like the OS far better, it is straight forward and things just work. You can network with extreme ease if you have other Apple products also, which was a big plus for me. I can see on my iphone, my computer's desktop...so that if I need a file it's there...same with my ipad. So needs are different for everyone.

In terms of power..the new M1 Max/Ultra is hard to beat. The downfall of the M1 is that many developers are not yet Native, so you have to use Rosetta as a work around. This works, but can be slightly buggy for some applications. I would do research to see if what you are using now, is compatible...BUT, if you get a used 2018 mac mini, and max it out as i did...you get 6 internal cores, i7, 64 gigs of RAM...It works great!...

Lastly, look at what connections you need also. PC sometimes has different connections...most Apple computers will have maybe 1-2 USB A ports, but mainly now all USB-C and TB 3/4 connectivity. Also display ports might be limited on the older mini. Not certain about the new M1s though.

Hope this helps a bit.

In terms of VEP...you can certainly just use one computer...will work fine and also save you some performance issues. But you can also just keep your PC as a slave if you wish, and have the Apple as your master...you can mix and match..

Lastly...if you get an Intel Mac...you CAN run Windows on a partition if you want/need.


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## jbuhler (Aug 5, 2022)

Lots of folks use Cubsse on Mac so you won’t have to change DAWs. 

I think with the new architecture we’re headed for a period of hybrid systems again where the DAW is run on the Mac and PCs are used as sample servers. Maybe Apple will figure out a way to add even more memory to the architecture, but it seems to me that a good portion of the advantage of the architecture disappears the more memory that is in use so I’m not sure a single Apple computer will be capable of running a very large template under the new architecture. So then the consideration is how much memory and what kind of ports do you need for the main DAW computer? And that very much depends on your workflow and what other tasks you want it to perform. 

On the other hand if you don’t need to go higher than the RAM that is being offered—many do fine at 64GB or 128 GB, some even less—then you will be able to work with one machine. I’m not in the new architecture yet, using a 2020 i9 iMac with 128GB and it’s perfectly adequate for my uses, though I don’t have a super large template or use lots of mic positions in libraries. And so far I’m willing to live with those constraints rather than deal with the inconvenience of networking multiple computers even though I have a 64 GB iMac sitting in the studio that I could easily put to work as a sample server.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 5, 2022)

Thanks for the thoughts, very useful!

Would people say there's not much benefit to trying to run everything inside the Mac? I.e. I could very happily keep the big fat Windows machine as a Kontakt server using VE Pro?

If so, what kind of spec of current-get Mac would I need to work with, say, a 100-track VEPro project? Could I get away with one of the M1 Mac minis? Or would I be better off getting a MacBook Pro? I realise a Studio would be "ideal", but they're bloody expensive (I am semi-pro, but cannot justify that expenditure on hardware right now given that I do have a 'working' Windows machine, _if_ I can use that as the VE Pro server...).


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## carlc (Aug 5, 2022)

If you need mobility, or if you plan for this machine to double as your personal laptop, then MacBook Pro. Otherwise, the Mac Studio is looking like a very attractive option. I am still on a 2018 Intel-based Mac Mini, but will likely move to a Mac Studio in the future.

I really don't like the iMacs with integrated display in terms of value; you can save quite a bit by purchasing your own monitor or re-using one you already have. If you are comfortable doing some upgrades, you can also save money by buying a Mac with minimally configured RAM. The 3rd party RAM is way more affordable, and there are lots of how-to videos from iFixIt and other online sources. 
EDIT: It turns out in the newer M1 Macs they have further integrated the RAM making it nearly impossible to upgrade. 

I will say that the current crop of Macs is a pain to upgrade; I miss my old Mac G4 where the side folded down and everything was fully accessible.
EDIT: Look how easy these things were to open, actually designed for service and upgradeability!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 5, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


> If so, what kind of spec of current-get Mac would I need to work with, say, a 100-track VEPro project?


Well, I'm running a 2020 i7 iMac and I run sessions well over 100 tracks....without VEPro (I actually moved away from VEPro once I got this machine). It is a beast. I think the Mac Studio is the way to go, but if you can get your hands on a 2020 iMac, you can't go wrong. I have literally not had a single issue for the past year and a half.


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## jaketanner (Aug 5, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


> Thanks for the thoughts, very useful!
> 
> Would people say there's not much benefit to trying to run everything inside the Mac? I.e. I could very happily keep the big fat Windows machine as a Kontakt server using VE Pro?
> 
> If so, what kind of spec of current-get Mac would I need to work with, say, a 100-track VEPro project? Could I get away with one of the M1 Mac minis? Or would I be better off getting a MacBook Pro? I realise a Studio would be "ideal", but they're bloody expensive (I am semi-pro, but cannot justify that expenditure on hardware right now given that I do have a 'working' Windows machine, _if_ I can use that as the VE Pro server...).


If you’re not going to get an M1 max with at least 64 gigs of ram, stay where you are. The mini with 16 gigs won’t don anything for large templates.


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## cuttime (Aug 5, 2022)

I would say get as much RAM as you can afford. When M1 Macs first came out there was a lot of talk about "Unified" RAM and other buzzwords. There is nothing magical going on in the new machines: RAM is RAM, especially in the VI world.


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 5, 2022)

I picked up the M1 Studio Max with 64GB of RAM and a 2TB SSD. I couldn't be happier. I was hesitant because I really wanted more RAM (I have the option to slave another Mac if I really need the RAM.), but I could not justify the price difference between the Max and the Ultra just for 64 additional GB of RAM. For music production, that is all you are really getting with the Ultra because all those extra cores and GPUs won't really help you.


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## HCMarkus (Aug 5, 2022)

If you are not maxing out the 64GB of RAM you now have... what size Pre-Load are you using in your VIs? If it is anything bigger than the minimum (in Kontakt, the default setting is 10 times the minimum 6kb), you will probably be very OK with 64GB RAM or less in a new Apple Silicon Mac Studio or even a Mini, in which the minimum Pre-Load should work perfectly if you use the Internal SSD or a fast Thunderbolt- or USB3-connected NVMe SSD for VI Sample Storage.

You can certainly go with VEP if you need to. Personally, I like having everything on one machine; I'm not running into RAM issues (64GB RAM here) and the quick boot/load times the Mac Studio provides make using it a pleasure. I sprang for the Ultra because I got power hungry, could afford it, and just couldn't resist. 

Your own degree of price sensitivity will inform your decision.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 6, 2022)

Thanks all for the input, very useful. It sounds like the consensus is that, whilst slaving the Windows machine via VEPro can work fine, working on one machine these days is considered the better approach.

I did some more testing of my current “go-to” templates and I was surprised to find the RAM usage never really got beyond around the 24GB mark. I think this is down to (1) SINE being considerably more RAM-efficient than Kontakt CAPSULE, (2) my using mixed mic positions rather than self-mixing, (3) having swapped in Infinite and SM libraries as my “secondary” libraries alongside samples, rather than running SSO and Berlin in parallel.

I guess the question I have to ask myself is: will I ever feel really constrained by being unable to run a gigantic template, if I went for the Mini? Right now my suspicion is “no”, as I just don’t have interest in running all my libraries at once. That makes a 256GB Mini with 16GB of RAM a pleasingly cheap way of getting into OSX (which is my primary reason for swapping!). That would be under half the price of even a 32GB Studio.

But then I remember my long path to RAM expansion on the Windows machine and get nervous. Bah humbug! 😁


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## khollister (Aug 6, 2022)

Without getting into the Mac vs PC thing, my advice would be "take the hit and get a Studio" unless you need mobility. I use a MBP with 64GB, but I'm not in a big template workflow with hundreds of tracks. If cost is not a show-stopper, a Studio Ultra w 128GB and as large an internal SSD as you can afford is the goal.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 6, 2022)

khollister said:


> s. If cost is not a show-stopper


The sad part is that it really is. 😔 Maybe time to look at Apple’s 0% financing…


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## khollister (Aug 6, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


> The sad part is that it really is. 😔 Maybe time to look at Apple’s 0% financing…


The only way I can see a 16GB Mac working is if you use a VEP server or you have low track count with sampled libraries. The other option is to pick up a recent Intel iMac that you can upgrade RAM on relatively cheaply.

As much of a diehard Mac user as I am, purchasing a current Mac with sufficient RAM for our purposes is not a particularly budget friendly operation. A Studio Max w 64GB/2TB at $3000US is about the entry point for something in the Apple Silicon space right now. If that is a bridge too far, a 16GB Mac with your PC as a VEP server is the only other option other than used Intel Mac's you can upgrade RAM on.


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## Wunderhorn (Aug 6, 2022)

I think it is not a good time to switch to Apple at this moment. The M series is not grown up yet. Powerful, but patronizing in its architecture and therefore it will age very fast.

Upgradable RAM and internal PCI slots would be non-negotiable to me. Something that only the Mac Pro is offering at the moment. That, or a PC.

Hopefully we will see a new Mac Pro or another Mac Studio with more abilities to upgrade and customize soon(-ish).


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## ModalRealist (Aug 6, 2022)

Thank you all - I’ve concluded that I should hold out for now. The chances of a more budget-friendly high-RAM Apple Silicon option appearing in the next 12 months seems quite high to me (though I might get unlucky with an M2 Mac mini that taps out at 24GB of RAM). The Mini is due a refresh but didn’t get the initial M2 chip. An “M2 Pro” mini with up to 32GB of RAM would almost certainly be the right price point for me.

For now, I’ll just have to look into contorting Win 11 to be less annoying to me!


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## carlc (Aug 6, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> Hopefully we will see a new Mac Pro or another Mac Studio with more abilities to upgrade and customize soon(-ish).


Unfortunately the trend seems to be in the opposite direction. Apple used to offer affordable towers with everything accessible to the user. They started to block us out with the iMac and Mac Mini designs. The latest M1 Macs are almost anti-user with everything integrated and soldered. I hope that changes by the time I need to upgrade my Mac since I can’t justify the Mac Pro prices.


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## jcrosby (Aug 6, 2022)

carlc said:


> I hope that changes by the time I need to upgrade my Mac since I can’t justify the Mac Pro prices.


Unfortunately it's not going to. The whole concept behind AS (and I'm not implying it's good or bad, just the way it is...) is the _System On a Chip_ approach where everything is integrated into a single chip. I don't see a future where Apple suddenly does a 180 and ditches the SOC approach since that is at the core of the entire Apple Silicone design.


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## JohnG (Aug 6, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


> will I ever feel really constrained by being unable to run a gigantic template, if I went for the Mini?


Two main points in response to this question:

*1. Constraint is a fiction *— if you ever get a tv show or other regular gig that requires a bigger template and significantly more RAM, you can readily incorporate a second (or third) computer, link them all with VE Pro, and carry on. It’s just not that hard.

*2. What you write determines what you need * — if you are writing pop songs, even with lots o’ plugins and overdubbing stacks of live audio, you still might be able to get by with a “modest” computer, given how powerful the new Macs are. If, by contrast, you want a pre-loaded, always-on full orchestra with numerous alternative sections (lots of string and brass libraries, hundreds of percussion tracks) plus synths, vocals, guitars — the entire arsenal — you will at some point want a second computer if not day one.

It’s impossible to know beforehand, alas. My main Mac has a kooky amount of RAM and I still use PC satellites for orchestral samples, but I don’t hear many people working like that these days except those who have truly insane deadlines.

Good luck! Have fun!

John


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 6, 2022)

If you're not willing to spring for the Mac Studio, waiting is the best strategy. The updated Mini will surely feature more RAM--surely. And it doesn't cost anything to wait and see. @JohnG is dead on the money, though; it is not that big of deal to harness a slave. You already have one that will work.


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## mat1 (Aug 6, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


> An “M2 Pro” mini with up to 32GB of RAM would almost certainly be the right price point for me.


That machine will make a lot of people happy!


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## JSTube (Aug 6, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


> (current spec: Ryzen 5-something [which is too slow...], 64GB RAM, 1070 GPU). I increasingly cannot stand Windows. The UI, the bugs, the intrusiveness... and increasingly I am seeing stability issues, audio crackling, you name it. I've just had enough.


Sorry, but you're doing something wrong if this system is giving you issues. _I have a Chromebook running Windows 10 and Kontakt without any of the issues you describe. _Do you try changing your buffer size?

UI, whatever. I personally think snow-leopard was the prettiest OS from a time when I wasn't even an Apple user, and now I'm pissed that I can't get that dock/aesthetic even though I have an Apple computer.

Bugs? Guess what, Apple's got a ton of them. When I first bought my M1, I had to power-cycle the machine every time the screensaver came on because there was a bug where if a non-admin user account existed on a system, the screensaver would just not go away.

Stability? It's just another cheek on another proprietary body's a**. The grass isn't greener. Just a different shade. Why don't you check the apple forums after an OS update to see what kind of mayhem sometimes ensues and just how far-ranging the kinds of software can be that will suddenly stop working upon the latest apple release! _I'm sorry, but Windows NEVER does that, EVER. _

Intrusiveness? You're obviously not looking into some of the other disturbing things Apple's doing with their extensive, un-opt-outable levels of telemetry. Why don't you do that?

I just use both.



mat1 said:


> That machine will make a lot of people happy!


So would OP's current machine.



ModalRealist said:


> Preliminary question: is there any alternative to Windows other than Macs for audio production? I am assuming not as, for example, I really like using VE Pro alongside Dorico and/or a DAW (usually Cubase), and I am pretty certain VEPro doesn't support Linux.


Don't even try Linux. Seriously. I am a recovering *NIX addict and the only real reason I use Apple now more than PC is because I learned far too much shell scripting and bash to go to waste, and zsh is a sweet default shell for Apple that gives me most/all that transferable skills.

But Linux doesn't even have a mature audio stack. lol. That alone should be a red flag.

I spent damn near 3 years not making music and doing NOTHING but trying to build the best possible enterprise-grade system to try and virtualize my music production setup with everything from PCI-passthrough, using things like Proxmox and Xen hypervisor, even native implementations of KVM/QEMU ... IT'S A TRAP. 
**The radical free software extremists are so far down the rabbit hole with their delusions and biases about the usability and functionality of their software that they really shouldn't be seriously acknowledged and I will always urge caution whenever somebody even hints at embracing that whole ecosystem and mindset, because of HOW MUCH DAMAGE and TIME LOST to my personal life that damaging philosophical way of using computers was for me. Linux is BRICKING M1 computers right now. I'm on some Linux mailing lists still, that's how I got that information. Let that sink in.*

Switching to Mac isn't gonna radically change your world. Most of your software will work the same. Some better, some worse. I know my preferred daw works better on Windows, unfortunately (suffering bad UI lag even though they claim METAL integration...)

But it will be good at any rate to have a newer computer with all the latest advancement in I/O and the expandability enabled by such. Apple's latest machines are kicka** at every price range, so if there's any reason you're going to use to justify a new machine, use that, rather than some false delusions and setting yourself up to me _mostly undewhelmed_ about how radically different and better it's going to be.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 7, 2022)

@JSTube you’re quite right it will be no panacaea! I use Macs at my other job and just find them much more pleasant to use.

You’re right that there’s something wrong with the Windows machine, as the spec is great. But I can’t figure out what it is that’s wrong. My last hurrah is going to be wiping the system drive and installing Win 11 fresh onto a different SSD (one that’s had less use - the OS is still sat in the original 2011 SSD).


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 7, 2022)

A couple of thoughts. I've been a Mac user for some time, and very recently upgraded to a Mac Studio Max/64gb/2tb after retiring my trusty 2009 Mac Pro, which had been upgraded to within an inch of it's life over the years.

The Studio is a great machine but I learnt a long time ago that large templates did not work for me - I spent far more time configuring and tweaking templates than I did writing music. Plus, since I regularly added a new library here and there, I was constantly having to add it in, and then make it fit logically with the libraries I already had.

In short I spent lots of time re-arranging the sun loungers around the pool, and very little time actually sunbathing.

When I bought the Mac Studio, I, like many others, couldn't justify the extra expense of internal storage and RAM. I think it would have cost me about £ 2k more to get that extra 64GB. I decided that, as a Cubase user, I would be perhaps developing a closer relationship with the track freeze feature. And I still had my trusty cheese grater 2009 for VEPro duties if required.

I am more than happy with the Mac Studio. I have a bare bones template and drop additional libraries as I need them, and as a result, I also spend a lot less time 'navigating' in Cubase. Also, it helps to avoid the paralysis of too much choice.

So if you are looking for a recommendation to go ahead, you've got it.

One thing I don't agree with is those recommending you to wait. The Mac Studio was only released in March this year. Technology will always roll on, and if you re not happy with your current system you will get the benefits much quicker. Yes there's an M2, so you could wait for that, but then there will be the M3. Whenever you buy, there will be something newer coming along. When the new Mac Studio M2 eventually appears, my M1 will still be a very powerful and capable machine. I used my 2009 machine for 13 years, and it was the best computer I have ever bought !

As for the upcoming Mac Pro - Apple aren't going to cannibalise their range by putting out a new inexpensive Mac Pro. It is going to be eye wateringly expensive and extremely desirable. There will be a lot of people waiting for the Mac Pro to be announced, and when the pricing is announced, most will quietly order a Studio and wished they hadn't waited. At least that's been my experience of Apple.


If you do decide to wait, one thing might help. There are specialist audio computer dealerships whose expertise is in building music workstations. They will have extensively tested different configurations and components to build reliable workstations. It might be worth talking to one of these companies to see if they might 'service' your PC, even possibly switching out some of the components to transform it into something more reliable. For example, they might suggest changing the motherboard to one which they know plays more nicely with audio applications.


Personally, I'd be ordering the same machine I have now, but whatever you decide to do, best of luck.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 7, 2022)

Thanks @Michael Antrum! I entirely agree, my only thought in waiting is for a Mac Mini with a bit more RAM capacity. The mini is due a refresh so I should find out sooner rather than later!


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## JSTube (Aug 7, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


> @JSTube you’re quite right it will be no panacaea! I use Macs at my other job and just find them much more pleasant to use.
> 
> You’re right that there’s something wrong with the Windows machine, as the spec is great. But I can’t figure out what it is that’s wrong. My last hurrah is going to be wiping the system drive and installing Win 11 fresh onto a different SSD (one that’s had less use - the OS is still sat in the original 2011 SSD).


A couple things:

SSDs can become severely slow once over 70% capacity. From there on it gets progressively worse as it get closer to 100% full and the system can start to feel slower than an HDD! So if your drive is very close to full, I'd recommend reinstalling and upgrading your size so you have 50%+ or ideally lower.

Another: 

If you haven't reinstalled Windows in a long time, that's always a good idea.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 7, 2022)

I have an OWC Thunderbolt box with 4 x 4tb SSD's inside. Two of them are 99% full and run at the same speed as the other two. When using SSD's for sample storage there is no speed penalty reading samples when they are full.

A system drive is another matter - you should always leave plenty of room, and this equally applies to spinning drives too.


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## JSTube (Aug 7, 2022)

Michael Antrum said:


> I have an OWC Thunderbolt box with 4 x 4tb SSD's inside. Two of them are 99% full and run at the same speed as the other two. When using SSD's for sample storage there is no speed penalty reading samples when they are full.
> 
> A system drive is another matter - you should always leave plenty of room, and this equally applies to spinning drives too.


My comment particularly applies mainly to cheaper SSDs, it's not so much an issue in the high-quality kind of flash you'll get from OWC. Cheaper flash memory is a very different story, and it's a very real issue. (You'll experience it on mobile phones, for example)


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