# Pre-made Loops/sounds vs Making your own="real" composer



## gsilbers (Dec 10, 2011)

Bringing it from the NI Damage thread...


just to clarify on the topics at hand:


1) Using Pre-made loops does not make you a good or "real" composer
(or other composers see you as not a good enough composer.. or something along those lines) vs no one cares , its fine. 

2) Pre-made loops vs pre-made sound design (aka omnisphere/SL/heaviocity) 
there is a difference between these 2. 

3) definition of what is a loop (sounds silly but i think this is one big key in this argument.) 


please feel free to update the topic grammar or argument if i was not clear.


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## germancomponist (Dec 10, 2011)

Pre-made says it all..... . It is not you who have done it!

Pre-made loops also let the music, done by different composers, sound the same.


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## Blackster (Dec 10, 2011)

germancomponist @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> Pre-made says it all..... . It is not you who have done it!
> 
> Pre-made loops also let the music, done by different composers, sound the same.



That's one way to go and I don't disagree BUT ....

I used a lot of loops and pre-made phrases from libraries for library music. It is a fast way to create good music and therefore other people give you money. Does this give my satisfaction to be a great composer? 

NOT AT ALL! 

But it gives me freedom to spend money on orchestration courses, private lessons in composition and so on. When you have established a solid stream of income you have the freedom to build your own loops, your own patches, even to record your own samples. This all takes a lot of time and money. And all of us have to pay their bills. 

So my (personal) conclusion on this topic is:
(-) loops don't make you a good composer
(-) loops let you sound like 5 mio. other "composers" out there
(-) loops won't make you famous
(+) loops can help you to establish a solid income
(+) loops are great to save you time
(+) loops are inspiring on what you can create by yourself

I'm very sure there a plenty of more points to add (on both sides) and I leave it open right now. I believe this topic is not as easy as it seems to be. It is not good or even fair to say loops are good or bad in the first place. It is much more than that. So many people forget totally that we are working in a BUSINESS. Think of that first before complaining about why you can't pay your bills, why you don't have food in your fridge. Ok, that is a bit dramatic but it mirrors the reality to some extend. 

When you don't need to care about your income anymore the question about using loops or not disappears. Guys like HZ hire some experts to program some totally new patches in Zebra2 or Virus to get a complete new sound.

Bottom line is: loops have a great potential and you should use it. Besides, nobody told you to use the loops right of the box. There are infinite ways to alter the sound, the feeling, the expression and everything else ... even if it's still a loop it CAN sound totally unique. But this requires effort, effort, effort .... did I mention effort?

They are a starting point, not the end!


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## dpasdernick (Dec 10, 2011)

My favorite argument is when people say "I'm a pro composer and you can't believe the turnaround times I have. I have to use loops in order to get the projects done on time"

While I respect that they are telling the truth the sad thing is that it seems all "working composers" are always under tight deadlines so they need to use loops to help them out. This equates to us, the public, starting to hear less and less all original music because the guys creating the music we hear don't have time to be all original. it's a slippery slope as timelines will only get shorter and more and more loops will be introduced in order to make the deadlines.

I personally don't use loops with the exception of some percussion (like Stylus and Evolve). I can't see using musical phrases etc. It limits where you can go harmonically. 

2 cents


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## Ed (Dec 10, 2011)

Once again, using premade synth presents and soud design is exactly the same

There is a school of thought on this forum that seems to think that there is orchestral music and then there is everything else. That the everything else really doesnt matter, I know real electronic musicians that won't think of using preset sounds from Omnisphere because they create the sounds from scratch and so would be cheating. They wouldnt even want to use multisamples drums either, because they didnt engineer them. I know a guy that will spend sometimes weeks processing his drum sounds, days working on a snare sound. So using a multisample would be cheating to people like that, get it?

Creatively there is no difference using a loop from a sample library and getting in a session musician to help play over a track and get them to improv a little, only difference is that others will also have access to that performance and recording.

Personally I like to use a mix of loops, both tonal and percussive ALONG WITH MY OWN. So I'll have lots of my own percussive beats, synth rhythms and sound design. I dont ever like to use the loop in isolation for exactly the reason that it doesnt feel like my work. I also like to use preset sound design, but I also like to create my own sounds. I find a mix of both gives the best sound. Though it depends on how much of a deadline I might have, I might be more willing to let these tools help me, but then I still try and be creative in other ways. 

I find most people complaining about the use of loops dont have any place to judge. If some great electronic musician comes to me and says they feel use of loops and presets undermines my music I will gladly take and understand that criticism., what I won't abide is people that clearly have no idea what the are talking about telling me I cant do something even though I probably do it better than they do and someone that doesnt understand that sound design is a musical element. So f$%k you, and your little dog too, TBH. o=< 

And yes I am talking to you, you know who you are.

Sound design can be as much a musical element as any percussive element. sorry to disappoint your simplistic superficial understanding of music and is just as much cheating using a premade preset suspense sound design ambience as it is using a simple loop underneath a bunch of other percussion you did program.... 

Also, there are people like Fat Boy Slim, who have made AMAZINGLY creative tracks out of other peoples music (essentially "LOOPS"), but apparently that takes no skill or musicianship at all, its just lazy. Right? Wrong, you douchbag.

But Im sure we'll see a lot of special pleading going on in this thread which decide that any use of loops is bad, but other stuffs fine but saying they are different for no reason whatsoever.


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## JT3_Jon (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm also curious to the definition of "pre made loops." Is taking a high hat pattern from RMX, combined with a tabla loop, combined with some stormdrum hits, etc = pre-made loop? How about taking an RMX loop and "randomizing" it, rearranging the midi, or throwing it through different effects, delays, filters, etc = homemade? 

Maybe its because I dont use much "loops" that I dont even understand what constitutes a premade or homemade loop! The way I use "loops" is very much like a simple library, where I dig the sound or feel of the recording and thanks to all the tools we have (rex format, apple loops, audio editing, daw effects, Melodyne, etc) change them to do what I want them to do. 

Another interesting thing to think about is all the cross over libraries like 8dio, Tonehammer solo voice libraries, or even orchestral string runs. Is using pre-recorded phrases using loops, or have the same sigma?

In discussions like this I think to Jerry Goldsmith who said something along the lines when asked if he used synth presets; "yeah. I use presets. An oboe is a preset. Its how you use it that matters." (I heard this from another composer, so I have no idea if he really said it, but interesting to think about)


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## Simplesly (Dec 10, 2011)

> Personally I like to use a mix of loops, both tonal and percussive ALONG WITH MY OWN. So I'll have lots of my own percussive beats, synth rhythms and sound design. I dont ever like to use the loop in isolation for exactly the reason that it doesnt feel like my work. I also like to use preset sound design, but I also like to create my own sounds. I find a mix of both gives the best sound. Though it depends on how much of a deadline I might have, I might be more willing to let these tools help me, but then I still try and be creative in other ways.



I agree. I might also add that sometimes I might be thinking of a rhythm and I then go to my loop libraries and find something very close. Then I'll tweak it, add my own stuff, etc, but the best thing about it is that it gives me a groove base that depending on the track, I might have a hard time replicating without. Why? Not because I am a shitty composer, but because I am a shitty drummer.. :lol: 

I mean I wouldn't just go and use the loop by itself, I think that's lazy, if not lame, but I do find them valuable in certain situations.


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## ysnyvz (Dec 10, 2011)

everything (samples,loops,phrases,presets etc.) is actually pre-made in VI world
because they all recorded,played,designed,mixed.. by someone else
we are just using them to compose something in different ways
'real composer' doesn't means who creates sounds or instruments
'real composer' means who creates good music by using any sounds/instruments


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## dannthr (Dec 10, 2011)

If you're using loops, it's not composing, it's arranging or editing.

Nothing wrong with arranging or editing.

There are some very good editors out there...


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## StrangeCat (Dec 10, 2011)

I feel stupid even replying in a topic like this (o)


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## germancomponist (Dec 10, 2011)

dannthr @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> If you're using loops, it's not composing, it's arranging or editing..



Arranging pre-composed- phrases. o/~ :mrgreen:


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## Ed (Dec 10, 2011)

dannthr @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> If you're using loops, it's not composing, it's arranging or editing.
> 
> Nothing wrong with arranging or editing.
> 
> There are some very good editors out there...



Sorry dannthr but that is nonsense. 

You have clearly not heard the best "arrangers" because they are indeed composing with phrases and some of them are extremely talented at it. Exactly where do you make the distinction that they are no longer "just" LAZY arrangers and are indeed composing? There is a break called the "Amen break" which was taken from a song called "Amen, Brother", it has been since chopped up and processed tp hell. According to some people, thats not composing, thats just arranging. Bollocks. 

What happens if you're using your own sounds and some subtle loops underneath them? What happens if you get a session player in and let them improvise? 

Still "just" an arranger, no matter what you do after that?

Of course some people see "composing" as purely about notes, others arent restricted by such things. This is why they dont see sound design as music, so I'd also ask you if you think its still composing if I use a load of premade sound design over some piano notes, but if I layer in a loop under a percussion part for some texture, suddenly I am merely "arranging". Sorry, special pleading. Can't have it both ways.

Its also JUST as lazy to use premade sound design as it is a percussion part, it all depends how you use it. And some people will even find multisampled drums and synth patches lazy, because they like to process it all themselves so to them its very VERY lazy


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## JJP (Dec 10, 2011)

When I write a pop or jazz chart for a live band, I give a sense of the feel to the drummer and maybe a basic pattern and then just write rhythm slashes after the first bar. Does that make me less of a composer? I'm not writing every note. Essentially I'm telling the drummer, "Make up your own part that has this feel or is based on this pattern, because it would be too cumbersome to write out every note, and you'll probably come up with something better than I'd write anyway."

I may also do the same thing for the guitars, keyboards, bass, and percussion for much of the chart.

In a similar situation I'll grab a loop (or several so I can change things up) in a sequencer. If I'm going to rely on the player to create something for me in real life, why not rely on pre-made loops in a sequencer? 0oD


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## Resoded (Dec 10, 2011)

Frankly, I don't give a damn if people use loops or not. I don't see how that's anyones business except for the composers. I've read the damage topic and I have no idea what the creator of this debate wanted to achieve.

Personally, I'm not too keen on using loops. But reading some of the arguments here about time then yeah, I suppose I might in the future. If I have to. I like making as much as possible myself. Same thing with the chord patches in CB. I'd prefer writing it myself on each instrument so that I learn.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 10, 2011)

Much of what I do these days is songwriting. Sometimes I program drums, other times I use live drum loops for the feel-a ballad might have a brush-stir loop, a rock song might have loops of better fills than I can come up with, a dance song might have a house drum loop. This makes me less of a songwriter/arranger/producer?

Hundreds of dance hits are produced using loops-none of this is composed music? I hear film composers using percussive loops in score after score-of course, maybe they actually played every note, but I'd bet big against it. I use percussion loops in scores if they work.
I use pre-made arpeggiations from Omni. Sometimes I modify them. Sometimes not. I write plenty of my own notes around them, why shouldn't I be able to save time and use something pre-made that's appropriate? Anyone who uses Stylus and has never used a looped element from it exactly as it is has my admiration, but if you changed one emphasis in the loop or hit the chaos button, you "composed" it?

This strikes me as a nonsensical debate.


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## synergy543 (Dec 10, 2011)

Of course it depends upon what you do with the loops. 

Do you using them as building blocks and create on top of them like a montage? 

Or are you just pasting them in and calling it done? And offering your "services" as a "free film composer" on the film forums (if you search, you'll find pages and pages of these. Today, "everyone" is a composer).


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Dec 10, 2011)

germancomponist @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> dannthr @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > If you're using loops, it's not composing, it's arranging or editing..
> ...



+1



Oh hey ED hows it goin my friend. Try and use adult language in this thread this time ok? ...instead of resorting to angry insults. Your side of the argument will be takin more seriously  Clearly not everyone can think like ED. So "Shutup ED" when your thinking of being hostile.


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## JB78 (Dec 10, 2011)

If you ONLY used pre-made loops to patch together a piece of music I'd probably call that more arranging and editing as well. But as long as the loops (as is or changed somehow) are used in conjunction with your own musical material it's definitely composing IMO.
If I need something rhythmical to layer under my own percussion and I find the perfect thing in Damage/Stylus or wherever I'll use it as is, why the hell change it just for the sake of changing it? 
Also if using loops is cheating what about composers who like to start writing a piece to some sort of percussion groove just to get some ideas. Wouldn't that in the eyes and ears of the no-loop-shall-pass-camp disqualify the whole thing since the composition was inspired by someone else's work?
In a broader sense wouldn't that also rule out all the common chord progressions, since you can't really say that YOU came up with them first? Hell, why not just rule out the whole musical universe as we know it if being original is so important.
I'm sure none of this will offend the loop-detractors since in your eyes I'm not an composer anyway since I've used unedited loops in "my" music before and will likely do so again if it improves it somehow. (gasp!) >8o 

1) Good music is good music regardless if you handcrafted the instruments and revolutionized harmony and melody as we know it.

2) If the shoe fits, wear the sucker. (even if you didn't make it)


Best regards
Jon


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## wst3 (Dec 10, 2011)

I don't use loops... two reasons:

first - I just never got the hang of it. I've heard pieces created entirely from loops that were quite good - the 'arranger' probably spent more time, not less, creating the piece than he would have if he had not used loops.

Me? I can't make a loop sound good. Didn't spend that much time trying, but a little. Not my cup of tea.

Second - well, there is that snobbishness or whatever, I like knowing that I wrote the music. Same thing with sound design - I create my own sound effects... I often use libraries as a starting point because I don't have an F-18 in the backyard that I can record. But just as often I'll use a bunch of totally unrelated sounds to create my own F-18.

It's an approach thing.

I don't look down on someone that has the skill set required to take loops and create a piece of music or sound design in not-a-lot-of-time. Nor do I wish to be them!

In fact I don't really wish to be anyone, but I wouldn't mind channeling Copland or Barber for a few days...


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## Ed (Dec 10, 2011)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> Oh hey ED hows it goin my friend. Try and use adult language in this thread this time ok? ...instead of resorting to angry insults. Your side of the argument will be takin more seriously  Clearly not everyone can think like ED. So "Shutup ED" when your thinking of being hostile.



Any reason you keep SHOUTING my name like some kind of mentally disabled child Jeff? o=? 

Also, you're the one who started insulting people. :roll:


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## madbulk (Dec 10, 2011)

For heavens sake... we have to label the use of loops and pre-recorded phrases beyond "using loops and pre-recorded phrases?"

It is what is it. Can it be composing? Of course it can. Can it be more original or less original? Sure.

You're arguing whether the threshold is high, low, or zero tolerance? This is at least as silly as the coltrane vs lil wayne "what's music?" debate.

By the way, I just got Damage. I'm psyched.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 10, 2011)

Alot of professional dance/electronically/house musicians use loops. They all use vengeance loops and it was interesting to find out. From listening to the 128BPM loops, there were so many in there that were used, even in isolation. Does anyone know DJ Tiesto? He is one of my favorite DJs/producer/composer and he has loops all over his tracks, but I love his music (old stuff) . There's always a loop or two in there tracks and I never realized this.

Everything we use is pre-made, unless you are recording your own sounds, or making a sound from scratch in Alchemy or something. I think percussion is a little more of an exception. If you are using one shot hits and making your own loop, then I think that's composing, but ofcourse with someone else's recordings. Dropping pre-made music phrases is a big no no for me because that would not be satisfying and I didn't make it. 

In the end, I don't care if loops are used, I just wanna hear some good music arrangements and good sound!


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## Kralc (Dec 10, 2011)

The way I see it, is to not use anything "premade" one must:
Part 1
1: Plant a tree
2: Harvest tree
3: Cut proper pieces for violin
4: Construct violin
Part 2
1: Go out to your goat farm (or steel mill, whichever you have available)
2: Kill goat, get it's guts
3: Dry it, make strings
4: Go to your horse farm, steal some hair
Part 3 
1: Put all this stuff together
2: Record violin.

But first you have to build your own mic. Have fun 

I think if your editing the loops in some way to personalize them, it's fine. Almost no one who's watching the tv show or movie you've composed for is gonna say, hmmmm, I hear a Damage loop in there, BLASPHEMY!!!!


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## ysnyvz (Dec 10, 2011)

Kralc @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> The way I see it, is to not use anything "premade" one must:
> Part 1
> 1: Plant a tree
> 2: Harvest tree
> ...



LOL, what a great answer :D 
part 4
create your own notation system,these scales and chords doesn't belong to you :D


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## RiffWraith (Dec 10, 2011)

Kralc @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> The way I see it, is to not use anything "premade" one must:
> Part 1
> 1: Plant a tree
> 2: Harvest tree
> ...



I started to laugh right there. Great post! o-[][]-o 



Kralc @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Almost no one who's watching the tv show or movie you've composed for is gonna say, hmmmm, I hear a Damage loop in there, BLASPHEMY!!!!



I know you said _almost no one_, but still....dont be too sure about that....I watched 'Limitless' some time ago, scored by Paul Leonard-Morgan. There were several points during the movie were I not only recognized that he used Evolve loops, but I instantly knew what instrument they were from. For ex. LPS Scorefare Menu 1, E0. :shock:


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## Udo (Dec 10, 2011)

Before you start decomposing in a cemetry, just try to be creative and compose/create something worthwhile and don't waste you're time arguing about trivialities like the issue of this thread.  

Even famous composers have been using "loops" for centuries - I consider using an existng melody (from eg an old folk song), as many composers have done, the same as using a "loop". Evolving variations from pre-existing melodies is very much part of composing.


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## Folmann (Dec 10, 2011)

Lets take Clyde Stubblefield's "Funky Drummer" - one of the most sampled loops - one might as well erase a notable amount of artists and hits made the last 25-something years - and claiming they were all unoriginal.


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## Kralc (Dec 10, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> I know you said _almost no one_, but still....dont be too sure about that....I watched 'Limitless' some time ago, scored by Paul Leonard-Morgan. There were several points during the movie were I not only recognized that he used Evolve loops, but I instantly knew what instrument they were from. For ex. LPS Scorefare Menu 1, E0. :shock:



Ha, want to watch that again now, like a musical where's wally.
I agree with you though, I tried to watch that show, The Ringer, heard Frozen Piano all over it. And the game Dead Island, when I heard the low chugging guitar loops from Mutation's 2 straight up unedited, I was I little surprised. But anyone else hearing the game/watching the show would have no idea.

Troels: I searched Clyde Stubblefield Funky Drummer on youtube, found this instead http://youtu.be/ItZyaOlrb7E?t=1m1s :lol: This guy's obviously a "real musician"


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 10, 2011)

I've used as many loops as any of you. But honestly, I feel that the only music of mine that I want to remembered by has no recognizable loops. 

Oh, but I bow to the mighty Amen!! I have drank the wine and felt the power (mid-90s, baby). IMHO, you can't replicate the grooves/feel in the classic breaks using software. That's why they're still popular. Long live loops and rolling your own, I say. /\~O


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 10, 2011)

dpasdernick @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> My favorite argument is when people say "I'm a pro composer and you can't believe the turnaround times I have. I have to use loops in order to get the projects done on time"
> 
> While I respect that they are telling the truth the sad thing is that it seems all "working composers" are always under tight deadlines so they need to use loops to help them out. This equates to us, the public, starting to hear less and less all original music because the guys creating the music we hear don't have time to be all original. it's a slippery slope as timelines will only get shorter and more and more loops will be introduced in order to make the deadlines.
> 
> ...



Hmm, I really don't think the use of loops causes the slippery slope though. Take TV for example. AFAIK, with the advent of cable, satellite, Hulu, torrents and other entertainment options, TV ads are perhaps not as profitable as they were. This is what leads to smaller budgets (hence why reality TV exploded... no writers, no special effects.) When it comes to cutting budgets + production time, of course music will get cut like anything else. I think this is a case where correlation does not mean causation. Short deadlines might correlate with using loops but using loops is not causing short deadlines...


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## dannthr (Dec 10, 2011)

You guys act like there's no artistry in editing or arranging loops.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 10, 2011)

It would be an interesting test to see if anyone can make Damage sound not like Damage. It's pretty easy to tell that it has been used in a track from a mile off IMO. That's if it was the main part, but layered under stuff could do the trick :D


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## marcotronic (Dec 11, 2011)

Kralc @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> The way I see it, is to not use anything "premade" one must:
> Part 1
> 1: Plant a tree
> 2: Harvest tree
> ...



+1


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## Arbee (Dec 11, 2011)

Kralc @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> The way I see it, is to not use anything "premade" one must:
> Part 1
> 1: Plant a tree
> 2: Harvest tree
> ...



Great answer but:

Part 0... engineer some DNA to make a tree like no-one has ever made before :lol: 

Loved this thread, best entertainment I've had for ages - composers have been "borrowing" since time began. I think of it as a kind of "layered creativity" which can be greater than the sum of its parts when done well. I don't see RMX loops selling on iTunes on their own, or perhaps they do :shock:


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## Nostradamus (Dec 11, 2011)

In my opinion it's okay to use loops. What if you need a sax line for a song, but you can't play. You also don't want to buy (and learn!!) a sampled sax just for this track. But you have this CD somewhere, containing those nice sax solos. You check it out, it sounds good, but it doesn't really fit to your scale and chord progression. Then you start Melodyne to alter some notes until everything fits and ... dang! You're done. No problem with that. In the end it's your idea, even when you don't have the possibilities to play all instruments (sampled or not) on your own.

On the other side, as a hobby musician I hesitate to buy expensive sample libraries when I think that I can do it on my own.


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## Kralc (Dec 11, 2011)

Arbee @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Part 0... engineer some DNA to make a tree like no-one has ever made before :lol:



Thanks, I'll have to add that to the instructional vhs I'm making, "How to be a real composer". It's the hotly anticipated follow up to the "How to convince other people that your taste and knowledge of music is better than theirs: Now with bonus 10 paragraph rants!!"


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## wqaxsz (Dec 11, 2011)

Kralc @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> RiffWraith @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Drummer on youtube, found this instead http://youtu.be/ItZyaOlrb7E?t=1m1s :lol: This guy's obviously a "real musician"



:mrgreen: hilarious and creative, i've never seen a musician on stage this surprising with his gesture ; 
makes the so-called famous, charismatic entertainers looks like pretentious ego-poseurs.

Kralc, thank you so much for the link.

PS: oh and i 've quoted you and edited your sentence, hope it's fine 
but i still haven't written it :wink:


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## rpaillot (Dec 11, 2011)

There's a huge problem with loops : When we work with directors or producers, they look at us playing amazing and complex rhythms with only one finger ... thats not good for us. Now , everybody think we just have to press buttons to make music :D 
I'm not joking, I see that every days...


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## Jean Paul (Dec 11, 2011)

I think one should always strive to be as creative as possible. That is the very essence of music composition. 

Using fully orchestrated and ready-made loops might give a nice end result but diminishes your own creativity substantially and does not help in learning.

However, I sometimes find very useful to use, for instance, a few ready made Duduk phrases / loops or other ethnic instruments, because it is hard to find and very expensive to get such players. But the key is that I am only using these loops out of necessity, and they only constitute 5-10% of the overall composition. The main melodies, harmony, orchestration, etc are still a creation of my mind.


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## Andrew Christie (Dec 11, 2011)

Kralc @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> It's the hotly anticipated follow up to the "How to convince other people that your taste and knowledge of music is better than theirs: Now with bonus 10 paragraph rants!!"



HAHA! Love that 

o-[][]-o

Regarding loops I have no problem with them, I used to use loops and presets a lot when I was starting out and had no idea how to build my own sounds. In the end it's the final result that counts  

Nowadays for me, personally, I get much more satisfaction knowing that I somewhat created _that_ sound or rhythm from scratch, and get much more enjoyment constructing my own rhythms and blend of sounds. 

If I do happen to use a loop, they are so chopped up and messed with that they have absolutely no aural/musical resemblance to what is was originally.


EDIT: simple loops and common rhythms like a straight forward shaker in 4/4 don't count :mrgreen:


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## Daryl (Dec 11, 2011)

Andrew, I think that you and I are probably on the same page regarding use of loops.

I don't see any problem with someone using a basic loop as a starting point and then doing something with it. The trouble comes when you use really complex loops that are almost compositions in their own right. I've found that the more complex and great the loop sounds, the less original composition that can go on. Some of the loops in RMX, for example, are fantastic sounding, but are much too complete for me to do anything original with them.

I think that there are two ends off this spectrum and a lot of grey in between. Using pre-packaged loops doesn't necessarily make someone less creative, but it can.

D


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## Andrew Christie (Dec 11, 2011)

Definitely agree with that Daryl. There's some tracks from a few years ago which I arranged that contain untouched loops (just the percussion). I just cringe when I hear them, not because it sounds bad, but the first thing I say to myself is 'damn! that wasn't at all constructed by me, and I could come up with something so much better now by myself'


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## Ed (Dec 11, 2011)

Daryl @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Some of the loops in RMX, for example, are fantastic sounding, but are much too complete for me to do anything original with them.



Yea I agree, which is why its so important that developers of these libraries provide a lot of variation and breakdowns. Tobias' cinematic stuff for RMX is awesome, but i hate hearing it on TV because so often its the same damn loop and its so obvious. There are some *great *breakdowns however, which makes it very useful considering he didnt do that many for it! Whats great about Damage is that its much easier to make use of the full mixes because they all have very similar sounds to the multisamples and the rest of the loops, so unlike Tobs Stylus loops they all sound different to each other, Damage doesn't.


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## Ed (Dec 11, 2011)

dannthr @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> You guys act like there's no artistry in editing or arranging loops.



I certainly don't think that, in fact I think the opposite.

I just dont see the difference in using, say, a percussion loop makes you just an arranger and not a composer no matter how creatively you use it, but using a premade sound design patch is perfectly fine even if you've used just that with some simple piano over it or something. Are you saying there's no artistry or musicality in sound design or synth programming?

So if you're against using premade looped percussion for example, you HAVE to be against using premade sound design for the same reason. I wouldn't mind the opinion so much if it was applied to everything consistently. 

You can be very very lazy with pre made sound design as well as with any loop, again it depends on how creative you are. 

There are also people that will find it very lazy to just call up a synth preset, or processed multisampled drum patch. They will think you're lazy and your music of lesser value because they work on that stuff for sometimes weeks perfecting their sounds. 

Someone else gave an equivalent of cheating in traditional composition, by stealing something from piece of classical music or folk music. People who KNOW where you got it from will probably "look down on your music" because they can see where you got it from. Hell... Williams steals from classical music all the time....

My point getting through at all?


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 11, 2011)

Ed @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Yea I agree, which is why its so important that developers of these libraries provide a lot of variation and breakdowns. Tobias' cinematic stuff for RMX is awesome, but i hate hearing it on TV because so often its the same damn loop over and its so obvious. There are some *great *breakdowns however, which makes it very useful considering he didnt do that many for it! Whats great about Damage is that its much easier to make use of the full mixes because they all have very similar sounds to the multisamples and the rest of the loops, so unlike Tobs Stylus loops they all sound different to each other, Damage doesn't.



I don't use RMX much for cinematic stuff, but use it heavily in other areas. The "simplify" knob is fantastic! Together with groove lock, slice groups and all the effects, it's great for stripping something down to be useful mixed in with other stuff.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 11, 2011)

Ed's on a roll! Love it!


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Dec 11, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> I don't use RMX much for cinematic stuff, but use it heavily in other areas. The "simplify" knob is fantastic! Together with groove lock, slice groups and all the effects, it's great for stripping something down to be useful mixed in with other stuff.



Yes the simplify knob is great. I can't wait for the new RMX. Eric is just biding his time to drop that bomb


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 11, 2011)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Yes the simplify knob is great. I can't wait for the new RMX. Eric is just biding his time to drop that bomb



I'll take 2:1 on NAMM 2012...


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Dec 11, 2011)

I'd take that, but I'm right there with you.


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## MrHighlandPark (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't go out of my way to judge others' way of getting results, but since we're being asked I do think loops are lame. You can rationalize anything if you want to, but at the end of the day you probably know you're cheating.

o[])


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## Nostradamus (Dec 11, 2011)

Ed @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Tobias' cinematic stuff for RMX is awesome.



What are you talking about?


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## Ed (Dec 11, 2011)

Nostradamus @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Ed @ Sun Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Tobias' cinematic stuff for RMX is awesome.
> ...



Tobias Marberger, contributed material such as the "World Hunt" patches.


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## Nostradamus (Dec 11, 2011)

Ed @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Nostradamus @ Sun Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Sun Dec 11 said:
> ...



Okay, thanks. So I assume that this is a part of the RMX factory lib.


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## Ed (Dec 11, 2011)

Nostradamus @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Okay, thanks. So I assume that this is a part of the RMX factory lib.



Yes, check out the Epic Energy section. If you click on part author button you can see which ones he provided. I believe he also made the single film style hits in that section as well. Really wish he would make more but I hear he doesnt really do any music anymore. living it up on royalties. lucky man.


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## G.R. Baumann (Dec 11, 2011)

Interesting thread.

*If you can not take a piece of paper and a pencil and create great music, you are not a composer.*

Right, wrong? What do you think?


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## RiffWraith (Dec 11, 2011)

G.R. Baumann @ Mon Dec 12 said:


> *If you can not take a piece of paper and a pencil and create great music, you are not a composer.*
> 
> Right, wrong? What do you think?



If the answer was 'right', you'd automatically eliminate about 90% of 'composers' today.

However, you pose that question to Mozart, or Beethoven, or....

*If you can not take a nail and hammer - as opposed to a nail gun - and create great woodwork, you are not a carpenter.*

Right, wrong?


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## Ed (Dec 11, 2011)

G.R. Baumann @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> *If you can not take a piece of paper and a pencil and create great music, you are not a composer.*
> 
> Right, wrong? What do you think?



Demonstrably false and the words "great" is subjective so the statement cannot be factual. Remove that for a start.

However if you want to define composer to only include certain criteria, then Im good with it. I dont think of myself as a "real" composer.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Dec 11, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ Mon Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > *If you can not take a piece of paper and a pencil and create great music, you are not a composer.*
> ...




+1 In today's time that statement would be is false. Most of Hollywood's finest can write notation, but many "composers" in Hollywood can not. Mainly because notation is not a critical element in the composing process any more. Now its a preference, unless of course your an orchestrator and you are basically the interpreter between the composer and the orchestra. But your talking about composing specifically. 

However like Riff said, if you asked that question in 1784 the answer is a definite yes.


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## Ed (Dec 11, 2011)

My music is, in short, a re-imagining of the 'gestural-spaces' school of contemporary 'hexachord-interval' composition. It is of paramount importance that chaotic, post-Stockhausen player-developments must never be allowed to become aleatoric, or Wagnerianistically complex. It has been said that those who perform a oscillation are unable to morph or perform performances, at least not gesturally, but I fundamentally disagree. My latest composition explores the boundaries between expressions and mechanisms, whilst utilising a highly operatic attitude to a traditional, unified juxtaposition. My aim is simple - to mix all resonant transdisiplinary-melodies, whilst simultaneously (and melodically) writing the idea of 'literal-tessitura-instruments'. In short, the style must never premiere the performer.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 11, 2011)

Ed @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> My music is, in short, a re-imagining of the 'gestural-spaces' school of contemporary 'hexachord-interval' composition. It is of paramount importance that chaotic, post-Stockhausen player-developments must never be allowed to become aleatoric, or Wagnerianistically complex. It has been said that those who perform a oscillation are unable to morph or perform performances, at least not gesturally, but I fundamentally disagree. My latest composition explores the boundaries between expressions and mechanisms, whilst utilising a highly operatic attitude to a traditional, unified juxtaposition. My aim is simple - to mix all resonant transdisiplinary-melodies, whilst simultaneously (and melodically) writing the idea of 'literal-tessitura-instruments'. In short, the style must never premiere the performer.



Interesting points, Ed. But as a rather disparate composer, I yearn to compose, and influence percussively-monophonic procedures, an approach that features prominently in my recent dramatic works. One of my most technical influences is the concept of rejecting minimalistic composers, which dismisses my meaning and causes my dissonance to become somewhat improvisatory. It must be remembered that opposing modulations, especially if they are textual (or even minimalistic), should be avoided. My aim is simple - to develop all post-War octatonic-choreographies, whilst simultaneously (and triadicly) opposing the idea of 'diverse-tessitura-methods'. Unlike traditional expressions, I aim to develop techniques, including a highly super-cognitive part that studies all notions of graphic developments. My work has been seminal in the development of 'coherently-periodic semantic-music', a highly intellectual, and rather Stockhausenesque genre.


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## basement creep (Dec 11, 2011)

Does the term "loop" in this thread include midi phrases that I create, save and re-use from time to time? I've built quite a collection of 'ostinato' phrases that I drag out into my sequencer and edit for each "composition". Saves me lot of time when I have parts of a song that have similar patterns.


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## Ed (Dec 11, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Interesting points, Ed. But as a rather disparate composer, I yearn to compose, and influence percussively-monophonic procedures, an approach that features prominently in my recent dramatic works. One of my most technical influences is the concept of rejecting minimalistic composers, which dismisses my meaning and causes my dissonance to become somewhat improvisatory. It must be remembered that opposing modulations, especially if they are textual (or even minimalistic), should be avoided. My aim is simple - to develop all post-War octatonic-choreographies, whilst simultaneously (and triadicly) opposing the idea of 'diverse-tessitura-methods'. Unlike traditional expressions, I aim to develop techniques, including a highly super-cognitive part that studies all notions of graphic developments. My work has been seminal in the development of 'coherently-periodic semantic-music', a highly intellectual, and rather Stockhausenesque genre.



It must be remembered that composing processes, especially if they are coherent (or even periodic), should be avoided. I build upon the so-called 'instrumentations of flowing octaves', and transform them into what I term 'non-innovative-innovative pitch-class-developments', which I see as a distinct improvement. My latest piece begins with a rather pre-conceived 'cluster-idea', before fragmentarily transforming the existing cognitive material into a more influentially-21st-century state, a process I term 'soloistically-sub-musical-examining'. All composers should reject a variety of ideas, and (if this composes 12-tone works), proceed to abandon virtuosically until the best result is achieved. To put it concisely, the cultural forms of any given tempo must never clash with the ultimately synthetic endeavour of layering pieces wherever possible. Unlike traditional oppositions, I aim to develop challenges, including a highly predominant polyphony that generates all notions of post-pre-recorded riffs.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Dec 11, 2011)

basement creep @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Does the term "loop" in this thread include midi phrases that I create, save and re-use from time to time? I've built quite a collection of 'ostinato' phrases that I drag out into my sequencer and edit for each "composition". Saves me lot of time when I have parts of a song that have similar patterns.



Of course not. That midi sample YOU created.


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## basement creep (Dec 11, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ December 11th said:


> Ed @ Sun Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > My music is, in short, a re-imagining of the 'gestural-spaces' school of contemporary 'hexachord-interval' composition. It is of paramount importance that chaotic, post-Stockhausen player-developments must never be allowed to become aleatoric, or Wagnerianistically complex. It has been said that those who perform a oscillation are unable to morph or perform performances, at least not gesturally, but I fundamentally disagree. My latest composition explores the boundaries between expressions and mechanisms, whilst utilising a highly operatic attitude to a traditional, unified juxtaposition. My aim is simple - to mix all resonant transdisiplinary-melodies, whilst simultaneously (and melodically) writing the idea of 'literal-tessitura-instruments'. In short, the style must never premiere the performer.
> ...



I agree to a point, but combining forces, elements and platforms (as well as theoretically suggesting), my overall aesthetic is that of the 'dodecaphonically-experimental' school of chaotic aesthetics. As a rather atonal composer, I yearn to visualise, and visualise actively-virtuosic triads, an approach that features prominently in my recent apparent works. Except in rare cases (for example, when you are writing a particularly microtonal set of intricacies), contemporary composers of 'fundamental-music' should avoid the use of time-signatures. My work has been seminal in the development of 'textually-diametric improvisatory-music', a highly intellectual, and rather resonant genre. I am very much influenced by the idea of examining sequential resonances, particularly whilst combined with a highly flowing approach to spaces. Working eclecticly means that my focus is always complexly-based, and never spatial.


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## Ed (Dec 11, 2011)

basement creep @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> I agree to a point, but combining forces, elements and platforms (as well as theoretically suggesting), my overall aesthetic is that of the 'dodecaphonically-experimental' school of chaotic aesthetics. As a rather atonal composer, I yearn to visualise, and visualise actively-virtuosic triads, an approach that features prominently in my recent apparent works. Except in rare cases (for example, when you are writing a particularly microtonal set of intricacies), contemporary composers of 'fundamental-music' should avoid the use of time-signatures. My work has been seminal in the development of 'textually-diametric improvisatory-music', a highly intellectual, and rather resonant genre. I am very much influenced by the idea of examining sequential resonances, particularly whilst combined with a highly flowing approach to spaces. Working eclecticly means that my focus is always complexly-based, and never spatial.



It must be remembered that transcribing juxtapositions, especially if they are subtractive (or even experimental), should be avoided. My most personal collaboration always features strongly in any of my extended compositions. My work aims to visualise critically-postmodern continuities with modernly-literal elements whilst perceiving certain intricacies or resonant elements. When planning my semi-subtractive visions, I often find that exploring a somewhat sequential array of musical patterns helps a great deal. My latest piece begins with a rather radical 'cadence-modulation', before post-serially transforming the existing random material into a more sonically-post-unified state, a process I term 'post-modernistically-collaborative-dominating'. The most important tip I can give anyone is this: Never transpose instrumental sculptures; rather, endeavour to deny your extendedly-super-soloistic notations.


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## basement creep (Dec 11, 2011)

Ed @ December 11th said:


> It must be remembered that transcribing juxtapositions, especially if they are subtractive (or even experimental), should be avoided. My most personal collaboration always features strongly in any of my extended compositions. My work aims to visualise critically-postmodern continuities with modernly-literal elements whilst perceiving certain intricacies or resonant elements. When planning my semi-subtractive visions, I often find that exploring a somewhat sequential array of musical patterns helps a great deal. My latest piece begins with a rather radical 'cadence-modulation', before post-serially transforming the existing random material into a more sonically-post-unified state, a process I term 'post-modernistically-collaborative-dominating'. The most important tip I can give anyone is this: Never transpose instrumental sculptures; rather, endeavour to deny your extendedly-super-soloistic notations.



I see. Well that certainly makes much more sense now that I've had a chance to digest it. You've done a fantastic job of explaining it for simple-minded folk, like myself. I appreciate you taking the time.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 11, 2011)

(No one has figured out that Ed is kidding?)


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## Ed (Dec 11, 2011)

http://www.dominicirving.com/temp/cccbsg.pl (Deadly) serious.


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## Daryl (Dec 11, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> (No one has figured out that Ed is kidding?)


I think we just got the same email about a music bullsh*t generator. I've had hours of fun with it already.

D


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## NYC Composer (Dec 11, 2011)

Oh, I've seen those in other contexts. I want it!


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## re-peat (Dec 11, 2011)

__


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## G.R. Baumann (Dec 11, 2011)

There seems to be the notion that because of the existing tools like CPU and sequencers, libraries and loops, the "1784" definition of a composer is no longer valid.

I'd challenge that view.

Further, to equal an orchestrator's task with that of a composer strikes me as overly simplistic. Show me one composer that does not have a background in orchestration, but ok, we would probably argue here, because I would say that he is not a composer if he has zero background in that discipline.

Then again, perhaps it is all nothing but splitting hairs?

I am not too sure about it to be honest. I can however say with certainty that the quality of music produced is on the way down since many years, parallel with the ever increasing pre canned music bombardment that is hitting the shelves in my opinion, and to no great astonishment, in line with the decrease of CD classics sales.

Sure, the ways to create music has changed with the emergence of sequencers and ever increasing CPU power, and don't get me wrong here, musicians never had it any better. D'accord?

However, "painting with numbers" has found it's way into music as well, did it not?

There is nothing wrong with using loops in my world. SOme of the most beuatiful creations in the aspect I ever heard are from Ian Boddy or Simon Stockhausen, and it is a pure source of inspiration, and that is exactly what I find so very useful for a compositional process, the inspiration provided by such material. If it triggers additional soundscapes and melodies in my head, and it normally does, then it is a great start to a new composition, and this in essence means hard work.

If it is nothing but the puzzling of sound materials, I would question whether this could be called composition on the long run, as the creative process is clearly not existing.

When I see someone with a tool like Native Instruments Machine, hammering on buttons that play back samples, I admit that this person has good rhythmic feeling and has done some work in pre arranging the sounds that are playing back, and to a degree I can see the merit in this, but I never would call this a composition.

Just my little world of course...

Best
Georg


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## NYC Composer (Dec 11, 2011)

Awesome. Thanks for the link, Ed.

Gosh, Piet-if you thought that stuff was serious-ummm... check yourself, dude.


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## germancomponist (Dec 11, 2011)

So, Disk Jockeys are also composers, because they are also so much creativ, when they use pre recorded snippets..... .? ))))

A wide field, for sure!


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## re-peat (Dec 11, 2011)

__


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## NYC Composer (Dec 11, 2011)

re-peat @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Gosh, Piet-if you thought that stuff was serious-ummm... check yourself, dude.
> ...



Sorry I offended you, Piet-it just seemed that what Ed was posting was so over the top that it couldn't have been taken seriously.

As to dude, it was meant affectionately. I'll refrain. Cheers.


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## Ed (Dec 11, 2011)

re-peat @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Ed @ Sun Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.dominicirving.com/temp/cccbsg.pl (Deadly) serious.
> ...



Thats something like it, only if I were to do all that work it would take me all day. Im a lazy composer after all.


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## Ed (Dec 11, 2011)

germancomponist @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> So, Disk Jockeys are also composers, because they are also so much creativ, when they use pre recorded snippets..... .? ))))
> 
> A wide field, for sure!



No one is saying anything remotely like that.


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## kitekrazy (Dec 11, 2011)

germancomponist @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> So, Disk Jockeys are also composers, because they are also so much creativ, when they use pre recorded snippets..... .? ))))
> 
> A wide field, for sure!



Most of them do not use the label "composer", they usually prefer to be called a producer.


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## dannthr (Dec 11, 2011)

A lot of us would prefer to be called something other than what others might call us...


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## Resoded (Dec 12, 2011)

I want to be called Dr. Booger.


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## lux (Dec 12, 2011)

I decided to use a pencil to write loops. My self exteem just had a boost.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 12, 2011)

lux @ Mon Dec 12 said:


> I decided to use a pencil to write loops. My self exteem just had a boost.



Post of the week


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## Daniel James (Dec 12, 2011)

Just wanna say I use loops in alot of my tracks. I like what they bring to the table and if that makes me less of a composer so be it. All I care about is the end result, I'm not too bothered by how I get there.

Dan


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 12, 2011)

What about fruit loops? Seriously!!! So useful in the mix:







PS: Loops (on vinyl records from the 40s and 50s- locked grooves, printing mistakes) and the manipulation of recordings were essential in creating an entire musical genre, electroacoustic music (and more specifically, musique concrete, now called acousmatic art or music) that came to life mid-century and has survived 60+ years. Like them or not, loops have had a major impact on the artistic output of both serious and pop composers.


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## Markus S (Dec 12, 2011)

The most important tip I can give anyone is this: Never transcribe site-specific processes; rather, endeavour to transcribe your subtractively-conceptual elements. 

(http://www.dominicirving.com/temp/cccbsg.pl)


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## adg21 (Dec 12, 2011)

In a way, I think it does matter to the non-musical person if you built your tracks primarily out of pre-made loops. Not because they will say "ooo I recognise that loop from this or that library", but because the first thing a [curious] mind will ask you is "how did you do that??? Bloody hell, that sounds like a real orchestra / real whatever, or whatever".

Definitely one of the first things I might get asked. 

If it is all loops, imagine the disappointment.

Someone like Daniel James would not have this problem...he can say "watch my videos", I clearly did not do this in garageband with loops, I have talent and sophisticated and versatile tools."


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## madbulk (Dec 12, 2011)

And charisma and he's probably a snappy dresser. But he's no piano player.

I'm so freakin relieved that you guys were using premade composer [email protected]#$% tool. I was reading the first couple of posts and thinking, "I'm way out of my wise ass league here."


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 12, 2011)

Could composing a new line while having the DAW in cycle/loop mode, with say 16 bars of virtual instrument tracks playing along, be considered playing to a loop?


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## re-peat (Dec 12, 2011)

__


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## Andrew Christie (Dec 12, 2011)

I'm never totally secure about my music...probably never will be...the fact that I'm not good enough is what makes me strive to be a better composer :D


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## lux (Dec 12, 2011)

re-peat'post reflects almost perfectly my opinion as well. That luckily frees me from stating my ideas with my own english words..


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## dannthr (Dec 12, 2011)

Personally, I've just never found loops I like. I've only ever tried to use loops when I'm being lazy, so I have an opinion about other people that references my own ideas about why people use loops.

I'm always better off just creating my own percussion beds or rhythm beds or sound textures.

Which I've also reused when I'm being speedy.

I remember a while back, when I was doing VI programming on some Mardi Gras Style music, and I had to rewrite the drum kit part--I felt anxious, I'd never done that style of music and I wasn't totally confident on my programming skills for Kit (I can do cinematic/orchestral percussion fine, easy to put together rhythm beds there, but Kit, kit is special and most people can't program good kit drums). I had purchased the CineSamples ProSession drums specifically because I needed brush stirs and it had some loops, so I went rummaging around the loop library for something that I could incorporate into this track. I found some loops I thought might work, and edited them to fit into the cue.

The drums got sent back.

So I said "fuck it," rubbed my elbows in grease, and went on youtube and spent the day watching New Orleans Jazz Drummers do their thing--the whole day, just watching those guys work their magic--and came back to the cue and completely wrote a brand new drum sequence, totally from scratch with no loops.

I killed it, at least comparitively--it had character, personality.

I just have never been able to use loops in a way that feels like I'm putting in 100%.

I can see how it'd be ridiculous to not use loops for electronica (especially dance music) where the genre itself is practically founded on the rhythm loop.

But for the stuff I do?

Loops just fail me and I don't like using them.

I'm not the sort of person who is not confident in my product, but I'm definitely a perpetual student.

Nonetheless, I seriously do not consider arranging loops to be musical composition. In an original work, I would be willing to call it composition, but the loop itself was not composed, it was arranged--other things might've been composed.

But people who use loop construction kits or layer loops atop one another with nothing else--that's just editing/arranging and it's always dismaying when I recognize loops--it's a massive disappointment.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 12, 2011)

dannthr @ Tue Dec 13 said:


> Personally, I've just never found loops I like. I've only ever tried to use loops when I'm being lazy, so I have an opinion about other people that references my own ideas about why people use loops.
> 
> I'm always better off just creating my own percussion beds or rhythm beds or sound textures.
> 
> ...



You must not have had Eric Persing's great $25 loop set that he produced for Stylus RMX as a Katrina benefit! (great stuff to this day) 

It's great you taught yourself something. I've been programming drum kits for what seems like forever, and somehow I never quite match that extra little bit of grease that great drummers add in. I often go with loops.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 12, 2011)

I haven't find any loops I like either. There's always something I want to change.


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## guydoingmusic (Dec 12, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoArTZNA5F8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoArTZNA ... re=related)

enough said... It's totally cool!

/brad


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 13, 2011)

dannthr @ Tue Dec 13 said:


> I'm always better off just creating my own percussion beds or rhythm beds or sound textures.



I've kind of avoiding wading in this debate cos a) I talk too much anyway and b) I've not felt I can add anything to the party anyway, but your post did bring a couple of things to mind, Dan (quote above edited for space). So... sorry about a).

First I really admire you taking a day to study a particular style of drumming. In fact, for me high quality midi drum loops (a la Toontrack) is one of the best uses of looped information. The great thing about a good midi loop is that it was played by a real drummer, on a midi drum kit. I'm making use of resources and skills I don't and can't have. Look at that midi data and there's minute "imperfections" in the timing all over the place - which is why it sounds great and real (combined with a deep sampled kit). Often I'll swap things around / drop things out / add something, but for basic timing, I can't match that. I can well understand why it would take a day not just to analyse a particular style... for me I probably couldn't re-create that performance from an anylitical perspective. I could get the rough beats, I'd hope, but not that subtle timing - all credit to you if you're able.

But that brings me to my second point, which I know has already been harpooned in advance by one poster here - a day to research a groove? I'm needing to get as close to 10 minutes a day as I can on the current project. I don't think I'm using any loops either actually (even the small bit of drums I did program cos I knew exactly what I wanted, it was very brief and so getting the perfect groove for me wasn't quite so important). But that's the type of scoring I'm doing on this - loops just aren't so useful, on another gig they might be invaluable so it's not a value judgement. The point is - unless I'm working on my own material not for anyone else, it just wouldn't be possible for me to dedicate the resources you have in that example, Dan, and if Eric Persing has done a great job for $25, I'd be reaching for that on a deadline no mistake.


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## Resoded (Dec 13, 2011)

Maybe the real question is if anonymous (and uncredited) co-writing is okay or not.


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## Waywyn (Dec 13, 2011)

The advantages of loops:

- if you listen to them, they inspire (!!!!!). To me inspiration is the most important thing ever!

- if you analyze them, you learn how to make your own stuff. I wonder why not many people here realize that there is no other way to learn on how to create your own stuff but from loops ... and the only other way is to either have private lessons with a guy showing this or just a long long time of trial and error.

- if you vary them, you can give loops your personal sound.
There are so many musically awesome tools out there. Effectrix, StutterEdit and so on, you name 'em. Apart from the tools, every sequencer gives you lots of options starting from scratch, pitch, processing, cutting, slicing etc.

If you e.g. listen to "Session" by Linking Park you realize that the whole track is just ONE single loop. To me this is almost a masterpiece in terms of editing and processing!





The disadvantages:

Simply ONE, if you overdo it - it starts to sound shit ... as with everthing else.



Besides all that think about one little fact. I am aware that this discussion is about loops only but I wonder why it is always the discussion about premade loops? Is this really the only issue talking about. Using premade loops?

What about premade scripts or premade presets in general? Please don't get me wrong, I don't wanna get into a philosophy session, something like "in the end even a single sustained string note is a loop" but there is always a discussion about throwing in premade loops, but it is okay to use presets and premade scripts?

To be honest I get more annoyed by songwriters simply loading a single Atmosphere pad and hit two keys rather than someone using a loop but procesing it well so it sounds special!



Furthermore: MELODY IS KING! ... but rhythm is highly highly underrated!


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## NYC Composer (Dec 13, 2011)

Ok, couldn't resist-

I was reminded of those fine New Orleans loops in RMX, so here's something I threw together in 15 minutes with RMX , Trilian and VG2 piano.

http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2011/nawlins-in-15/

So-did I write the music? Or because I used the loops (two actually-and I cheated by adding cymbal crashes, does that make it "mine"?) am I not the legitimate writer?

See, to me, these kinds of loops, besides being inspirational are really like having a session guy there. If I was really wanting this to be a longer piece, sure, I'd manipulate the loop some, add fills, etc...but still, question remains.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 13, 2011)

I don't think there is such thing as cheating when it comes to making music. Though, downloading cracked software and producing stuff with that is cheating.


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## poseur (Dec 13, 2011)

it's irresponsible of me for posting, here;
i actually haven't read most of these posts.

somehow, i can't relate to the intent of the original question.

when i use loops, i primarily use my own loops,
but these can be either temporal or atemporal, rhythmic or arrhythmic,
and almost always have some compositionally-germane elements of harmonic content.

i don't have omnisphere or any program like that,
though i occasionally drop my own material into Reaktor for modifications that suit my compositional & orch purposes.
i have no problem using purchased loops, though,
so long as i see them as fit for my own (mostly extreme) modifications
in order, again, to suit my own creative intents.

i don't think that any of this makes me either a "real" or an "unreal" composer,
a "good" one or a "bad" one;
it's simply a matter of personal choice.

but:
when composers paint-by-numbers for money
--- _any_ numbers, that is ---
whether they're trained or untrained, whether they're scoring on paper for real musicians or using any other potential techniques:
i tend to think of them as "music-providers", not composers.....
unless, of course, the music is so full of heart & so skilled that it actually seems to move people, including my own little self.

as someone who once, early on, provided many "loops" for folks to use via license-purchase,
i rue the day that i decided to do so;
it's one of the very few major regrets in my musical life.


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## dannthr (Dec 13, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 13 said:


> Ok, couldn't resist-
> 
> I was reminded of those fine New Orleans loops in RMX, so here's something I threw together in 15 minutes with RMX , Trilian and VG2 piano.
> 
> ...



What's funny is that I wasn't even the composer, I just produced and arranged the music for virtual and live instrument treatment and had to rewrite the drums because the original drums were, well, let's just say lacking due to the technology of 1990:



I'm especially proud of what I like to call the "Mr. Potato-Head Tap-Dances" scene in the middle--although there is no Mr. Potato-Head in the game.

We don't all get to have the luxury of a whole day to study a groove style or to solve one problem--but I also think that it's BS that we don't always GET a day to work on a single instrument (or more)!

Loops encourage and feed the success of what is probably best charactarized as fast-food music production, but it's not totally our fault, because we're usually the only ones who can tell the difference and fast-food production is demanded by our clientelle, they're used to it and they want it and there's no way to argue against it because if you can't do it there's someone else who will.

It's a sticky situation.

And generally, I do not have a problem with the use of loops. Again, I just can't call it music composition, but writing your own music on top of a loop, well, that music is yours, you wrote it, that's composition, take away the loop and there's still music and that music is original, and I love that.

A lot of my eye rolling with music loops usually comes from when I hear some groove that is really intriguing and then I hear a MASSIVE disparation between the well produced and highly polished loop material and horribly produced and amateurly produced original material.

I don't hear it much on VI-Control, but I do hear it "on the street" as they say, and it's always massively disappointing and frustrating because the cat who is showing it off can't tell the difference between the quality and thinks they've got a golden track or even has an attitude about it.

But I do believe in the artistry of editing and arranging--people can do amazing things--and I don't think we need to call it composition to be proud of it.


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## RiffWraith (Dec 13, 2011)

Waywyn @ Tue Dec 13 said:


> The advantages of loops:
> 
> - if you listen to them, they inspire (!!!!!). To me inspiration is the most important thing ever!
> 
> ...




The groove is cool, but I am shocked at how lifeless, stale, uninspired, and just plain boring that track is. It starts off good, and I keep waiting for something to happen - something musical, something that will move me and grab me - but it never does.

Sorry, really bad track.

Cheers.


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## poseur (Dec 13, 2011)

i believe that a clear definition of "loops" is not mutually shared, here.....
..... at least, not by me.
ymmv.


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## Saxer (Dec 13, 2011)

there are some kids throwing loops out of the box into ableton slots and start/stop them. that's fun i tried it myself! after doing this for relaxing i go back to work and compose.

but there are tracks for commercial spots where i used some sample-cd-trumpet fills. and i use some shaker-loops or something like this. it's still my composition. it's also my composition when somebody plays a solo in my bigband tune. his solo, my composition. also my composition and a shaker loop. it's not me who composed the shaker playing 16th! i know that.

what i can't stand anymore are the stylus breakbeat loops... heared much too often in any kind of industrial image film and tv. yawn...


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## germancomponist (Dec 13, 2011)

...what reminds me to the "True Strike" times.... .


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## Ed (Dec 13, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Tue Dec 13 said:


> [
> The groove is cool, but I am shocked at how lifeless, stale, uninspired, and just plain boring that track is. It starts off good, and I keep waiting for something to happen - something musical, something that will move me and grab me - but it never does.
> 
> Sorry, really bad track.
> ...



Don't agree I think its great.


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## wesbender (Dec 13, 2011)

Ed @ Tue Dec 13 said:


> Don't agree I think its great.



I love it too. Hadn't heard it in years until this thread actually, completely forgot how awesome it was.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 13, 2011)

I love that Session track. It's awesome.


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## Daniel James (Dec 14, 2011)

Ok so in the spirit of the discussion. Can anyone tell where the loops in this track I just wrote are (if there are any muhahaha) and if you spot any loops, tell me if you think they are taking away from my composition at all!

http://soundcloud.com/8dawn/rhythmic-aura-2-defend-the

Dan


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## germancomponist (Dec 14, 2011)

Daniel James @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> Ok so in the spirit of the discussion. Can anyone tell where the loops in this track I just wrote are (if there are any muhahaha) and if you spot any loops, tell me if you think they are taking away from my composition at all!
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/8dawn/rhythmic-aura-2-defend-the
> 
> Dan



Dan,

don`t get me wrong and don`t take it personally! o/~ 

I never use loops, so I can`t tell you what loops are used here. But what I can tell is, that this piece sounds like 1 Million others too. We have had many discussions about this theme......, for example the discussions about trailers.... .

Using loops seems to be one reason, because so many trailers / pieces sound the same?

Again, don`t take it personally, please! o-[][]-o


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## Daniel James (Dec 14, 2011)

germancomponist @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> Daniel James @ Wed Dec 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok so in the spirit of the discussion. Can anyone tell where the loops in this track I just wrote are (if there are any muhahaha) and if you spot any loops, tell me if you think they are taking away from my composition at all!
> ...



Haha whenever someone says 'please dont take this personally' it will ofcourse be something that will be very personal and indeed it is. Which tracks does this sound like? 

I personally think this track is different from others, perhaps you are hearing the genre...like how one would say Dubstep all sounds the same, or heavy metal all sounds the same. When you actually listen to the music its different (I bet you could find lots of people who say all classical music sounds alike)

So you didnt manage to find any loops in there? i'll tell you now there are one or two, but the fact you cant point them out means that they dont detract from my musical vision....so therfor am I less of a composer for using them?

Dan


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 14, 2011)

Today, this year, our life, the galaxy, the universe *: one big loop!!

That's my definition, Poseur.





* and this thread.


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## germancomponist (Dec 14, 2011)

He he, Dan, from 1:00 on I hear a drum loop, but I see you take my words personally.... . 

In the last years I have learned to listen to tracks like listeners do, who are not composers. An be sure, they do not notice if you compose in A major or D major, nore they notice this and that little different to Han`s last composition.... . Thats the truth! Believe me!

Hey man, o-[][]-o


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## germancomponist (Dec 14, 2011)

I will try to explain what I mean:

Dan, you, Alex and many others are right what they tell us about using loops. Loops can inspire very much, and they do!

If you hear a hot drum loop, then your brain will automatically compare with all the music where this loop is already included. Very normal and human!

But , it seems that many composers who are using loops are getting nearly the same ideas about composing with other instruments arround the loops.... . This is also human! 

So, there is nothing wrong with this, but the result is that so many pieces sound the same..... .

o/~

BTW, the loop starts at 00:20 ...... .


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## Daniel James (Dec 14, 2011)

germancomponist @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> I will try to explain what I mean:
> 
> Dan, you, Alex and many others are right what they tell us about using loops. Loops can inspire very much, and they do!
> 
> ...



I think if someone is just using a loop as is without bringing anything else to the table then you run the risk of sounding the same but if its serving the purpose of the song would that be such a bad thing?

(p.s there is no loop at 0:20 or at 1:00)


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## germancomponist (Dec 14, 2011)

Daniel James @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> .... but if its serving the purpose of the song would that be such a bad thing?
> 
> (p.s there is no loop at 0:20 or at 1:00)



No, no bad thing at all! 

I think you got it, what I mean!


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## Waywyn (Dec 14, 2011)

germancomponist @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> But , it seems that many composers who are using loops are getting nearly the same ideas about composing with other instruments arround the loops.... . This is also human!



Seriously ... pardon me Gunther, but this is plain bullshit!
.. and I explain you exactly why!

What you say is like give an artist a specific palette of colors and they will most likely paint the same picture ... or give 100 workers the exact same amount of wood planks and an automatic drill and they will most likely come up with a chair or a table.

Even within 100 artists a FEW will most likely hit the same key or the same tempo, but maybe even LESS, if not just 2 or 3 out of these hundreds may have similar tracks ...

Therefore, give e.g. Evolve or a few Stormdrum 1 loops to 100 composers and they will ALL compose you different pieces of music!

Do yourself a favor and before you come up with assumptions or wild made up theories check all the demos from each loop library out there and pay attention on how similar those tracks are.

Theoretically what you say, my demo "Aim for the Head" which I composed for Evolve Mutations back then, should most likely sound like lots of other pieces made with this library - sorry, but this is simply not true!


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## Ed (Dec 14, 2011)

Daniel and Waywyn, 

You're wasting your time. 

These are people that actually believe trailer music is just "loops" and cant hear any difference between any of them. Dan had it right, its like some school kid saying classical music sounds the same or your dad saying all dub step sounds alike.

Look, this puts it fairly well.



You see? Thats all people like Gunther hear when you show them this, products like Aura to them is like taking fart sounds and people putting fart sounds in their music. Duh, so it sounds like farts. I don't get it. It sounds like eveything else. I hear delayed farts and, AMP'd farts, but it still sounds like the same old looped farts I hear everywhere.


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## germancomponist (Dec 14, 2011)

So, if I am wrong, Alex: Why do so many sound tracks sound the same? What do you think?


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## Ed (Dec 14, 2011)

germancomponist @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> So, if I am wrong, Alex: *Why do so many sound tracks sound the same? *What do you think?



Wow, thats even *broader*. :lol: 

What a crazy question Gunther, and totally outside the scope of this entire subject.


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## germancomponist (Dec 14, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> What a crazy question Gunther, and totally outside the scope of this entire subject.



)))))))))))))))))))

I see, you have understood nothing! o-[][]-o


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## Ed (Dec 14, 2011)

germancomponist @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> Ed @ Wed Dec 14 said:
> 
> 
> > What a crazy question Gunther, and totally outside the scope of this entire subject.
> ...



Unless you're not seriously blaming everything on "loops" and not just loops but PRESET loops then no, I have understood everything perfectly fine.


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## germancomponist (Dec 14, 2011)

So here we go...... . o-[][]-o


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## Waywyn (Dec 14, 2011)

germancomponist @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> So, if I am wrong, Alex: Why do so many sound tracks sound the same? What do you think?



Gunther, seriously .... again? You are either in trolling mood or you simply like to regurgitate the same piece of meat and chew on it again over and over again!

Are you really aware how often you asked this question, how many people including me spend time with you on this topic, tried to answer your concern, you ironically agreed and understood where we were coming from ... and what for? ... only to ask it again for about the 4th or 5th time?


Yes Ed, you are definitely right. I am certainly not gonna waste anymore time on this!


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## camgoold (Dec 14, 2011)

I think Daniel said this earlier. (if not apologies)

But what difference is there in a looped synth, a looped sustain in a popular string library, a phrase or rep in a popular woodwind library. A preset in a popular synth. 
A template that comes with software, a preset in a limiter plug in. A guitar your stage hand has tuned for your. etc etc. 

These are all tools someone else has had a hand in sculpting, to make inspiration come easier for the artist, to allow the greatest amount of tools available for the creative. 

AND most importantly to allow the composer to create a piece they feel delivers to the clients and of course *projects* expectations. 

Next time I'm at the cinema watching whatever film, or watching people play whatever game, I will keep an ear out. And if any of them stand up, and question why the music contains a loop. I will happily punch myself in the head. :lol: 

It's the end result that matters, the connection between the sound and the image. Or of course the sound as it's own entity (if your into that sorta thing ).


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## germancomponist (Dec 14, 2011)

Not worth it.....


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## Ed (Dec 14, 2011)

germancomponist @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> I am trolling ?
> 
> Smile!
> 
> I am smiling over and over again over those copying artists, using loops!!! )))))))))



What makes you sound like you're trolling (or just ignorant, maybe theres another option) is that if I were to show you a few pieces of music you would say "all sound the same" I can easily find examples where there were no preset loops used at all. Therefore invalidating your argument that preset loops have anything to do with it. And then we'd get on to the real issue. Its not that you dont like preset loops, you don't like the style of production or composition. In other words, you just revealed to us that if someone makes all their own sounds and all their own loops it doesnt matter to you. Thats fine, but don't pretend its "loops" that you dont like.

If you're going to criticise use of preset loops, fine, but you just took making stupid arguments about this to a whole new level.


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## germancomponist (Dec 14, 2011)

Yeah, I am not a so called "modern composer" and I am not a friend of loops.... . 

But, am I unsympathetic, for this reason?


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## Ed (Dec 14, 2011)

germancomponist @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> Yeah, I am not a so called "modern composer" and I am not a friend of loops.... .
> 
> But, am I unsympathetic, for this reason?



I dont care if you're saying you're not a fan of the style of composition and production. My point which you're trying hard to miss is that your opinion has loops anything to do with it is nonsense. Your dislike for this music has nothing to do with loops, much less preset loops. 

Im not saying you cant have an opinion about what music you like, or that you cant have an opinion about the use of presets. Im saying your argument right *here *is simply factually incorrect.


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## poseur (Dec 14, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> Today, this year, our life, the galaxy, the universe *: one big loop!!
> 
> That's my definition, Poseur.
> 
> ...



mmsr. le dude?
right or wrong, i'll take it!


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## Freds (Dec 14, 2011)

gsilbers @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> Bringing it from the NI Damage thread...
> 
> 
> just to clarify on the topics at hand:
> ...




I think is all about *context*. 

If you are composing music where the sound design is an important part of the track, featuring a commercial loop tends to be cheap. After all, you are supposed to be creating a palette from scratch here. For example, I doubt you will ever hear a commercial available loop in a BT track since sound is part of what he is creating (not including licensing loops from other songs, which is different).

For music where sound design is not really the main point, using presets or commercial libraries is a different issue, since that's not the main focus and might be irrelevant to the composition.

It's not black and white, and it really depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the music: 
If you are creating an atmospheric piece, for example, I find it cheap when I recognize commercial presets that haven't even been altered. You are supposed to be creating an atmosphere here, yet you are just using presets. I don't really think thats composing music since anybody can do it and doesn't sound special.

In fact, if I'm in a hurry or in a tight deadline I like to use commercial loops (all the time!), but if I have more time I prefer to experiment and create something more unique.

Each composer can do whatever he wants and ultimately is him/her who has to be happy and proud about the music. But I think each of us pushes ourselves in different ways and that sometimes tends to be the difference between having a unique voice or not.


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## bsound76 (Dec 14, 2011)

I have never viewed using loops as the same as using sonic presets.

Loops involve using somebody else's notes. (A stock loop, at least)

Presets involve using somebody else's sound creation.


I figure that this distinction is what delineates a composer from sound designers- creating notes or creating sounds.


I know there is a gray area for most media composers, but I still see it this way.


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## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

A little bit older, but a good read: http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=38


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## rpaillot (Dec 15, 2011)

Maybe you think all the musics start to sound the same currently because more and more soundtracks are produced like "songs" unlike what could do jerry goldsmith or john williams.

I mean, many soundtracks nowadays are composed in 4/4 ( with the occasionnal 5/4 and 7/4 ) with their harmony changing every bar or every half note. And very little counterpoints...

Beside, even in orchestral cue we tend to use and repeat rhythmic patterns ( like those strings ostinatos ) that make most music sounding like electro... in a way we're not using more loops than before, but we're making more loops ( rhytmic patterns with strings, percussions , bass ) 

This doesnt bother me as I like this style of music. But as an ever-learning composer I would like to push my music skills and dont stick to the 4/4 composing style "4 bars of intro, 4 bars of theme, 4 bars of B theme, 4 bars of outro"

To me, music should evolve, be inpredictable, with time signatures changing as often as possible ( not too much, otherwise it's contemporary music  ) , chords not changing every bars, etc ...


Don't know if my post makes sense


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## Markus S (Dec 15, 2011)

Loops can be :

- self produced
- commercially produced
- used in creative ways
- used as is and repeated
- combined with others to create new patterns

Is any of these techniques objectively better than the other? Certainly not. If you are using loops, it is a bit as if you are "sub contracting" a part of the music. It is the same if you write for orchestra, you don't play these instruments yourself, you don't record them, it's out of your hands. If you are using commercial samples, you are sub contracting a part of the production, too.

I personally do all of it. Of course I like to produce my loops myself, when I can, but sometimes I know the client is looking for a very specific (commercial) sound. So what good is it to try and redo the work, if it is already done. If I know they want something more individual and personal I create myself.

On a personal level (for my own music) I would never use a commercially produced loop, but that is just my personal POV.


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## Waywyn (Dec 15, 2011)

rpaillot @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Maybe you think all the musics start to sound the same currently because more and more soundtracks are produced like "songs" unlike what could do jerry goldsmith or john williams.
> 
> I mean, many soundtracks nowadays are composed in 4/4 ( with the occasionnal 5/4 and 7/4 ) with their harmony changing every bar or every half note. And very little counterpoints...
> 
> ...



I agree with you on this, but you have to be aware that some people use 4/4 because they can't write in odd meters ... but it is more the fact that the "normal default" listender feels kinda off or disturbed by odd signatures. So it is not an issue of most composers, but of the mass feeling comfortable with something.

Imagine a designer who says, all clocks are the same and tries to get them designed moving the other way round or mirror inverted ... surely a great idea and fun to watch at and being irritated - twisting your mind in a way ... but I certainly wouldn't want to see such a clock at an airport or train station ...


Regarding Gunthers concerns ALL sounding the same is a little thing he is not willing to understand. Trailer guys write music for discs and these discs are at all kinds of trailers houses. So cutter start using these tracks and as there are top pop hits, there are also top trailer hits. These tracks are simply emotional and well editable .. so they end up in several trailers, sometimes at the same time ... therfore ALL tracks sound the same *rolleyes* .. now it is not only this, but as soon as several composers make use of a specific loop library they also start to sound like ALL the same.

Don't waste your time on this topic. It gets cleared out as for the 5th time now .. and a week later you find his question: "Why does all sound the same" again.

Besides, some may remind this, I already predicted this right a few months/week ago that Gunther will come up with this same question again ... I think the real problems are not sample library loops but brain loops!


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## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

Waywyn @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Regarding Gunthers concerns ALL sounding the same is a little thing he is not willing to understand. Trailer guys write music for discs and these discs are at all kinds of trailers houses. So cutter start using these tracks and as there are top pop hits, there are also top trailer hits. These tracks are simply emotional and well editable .. so they end up in several trailers, sometimes at the same time ... therfore ALL tracks sound the same *rolleyes* .. now it is not only this, but as soon as several composers make use of a specific loop library they also start to sound like ALL the same.
> 
> Don't waste your time on this topic. It gets cleared out as for the 5th time now .. and a week later you find his question: "Why does all sound the same" again.
> 
> Besides, some may remind this, I already predicted this right a few months/week ago that Gunther will come up with this same question again ... I think the real problems are not sample library loops but brain loops!



Alex,

I never said "all sound the same"

I said:


> Using loops seems to be one reason, because so many trailers / pieces sound the same?



and:


> So, there is nothing wrong with this, but the result is that so many pieces sound the same..... .



When I say "so many" this means not "all"! A little different, yes, no? o/~


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## lux (Dec 15, 2011)

hmmm


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## Waywyn (Dec 15, 2011)

lux @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> I have no idea why this all german conflict raises up every month or so



I wasn't aware that Ed is german! 

But seriously, bringing up a question and debating about it is cool, but if someone spreads his nazi point of viewing music and specific composing styles throughout a whole forum on many many posts and threads it makes me kinda sad, ... because honestly currently VI feels like a huge box of apples ... and while I am trying to grab an apple and take a bite, I see that little Gunther worm inside so many apples, telling me the same question over and over again.

Seriously Lux, I know that I should simply ignore it ... but it is not like I am explicitely searching on VI for Gunthers weekly rant on modern composers, but how is it possible to visit VI and NOT stumble upon this "back then, everything was better whining posts"


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## poseur (Dec 15, 2011)

bsound76 @ Wed Dec 14 said:


> I have never viewed using loops as the same as using sonic presets.
> 
> Loops involve using somebody else's notes. (A stock loop, at least)
> 
> ...



in the end,
i find this a useless distinction to make......
all composers are, in one very real way, also "sound designers",
whether writing for media or not.
we choose, specifically, the fields-of-sounds with which we're working,
from piece-to-piece.

the more we write from the heart while applying increasingly skilled critical mind,
the more expressive we might (progressively) become.....
and, that expression sometimes shows itself in our orchestration & arrangement of our music.....
music, which is, in fact, sound.

are giya kancheli, steve reich, arvo pärt, phillip glass, terry riley, tom jenkinson, tigran mansurian,
david bowie, ty braxton, carla kihlstedt, amon tobin, cecil taylor, ornette coleman, etc etc etc,
not composers who seem to have designed their sounds?
did harry partch, olivier messiaen, lou harrison, igor stravinsky, paul hindemith, a. schoenberg, etc etc etc not design their sounds?
???

as far as the use-of-"loops" goes:
yes, there are a gazillion composers jockeying for media/film/trailer positions who do,
sound to me very, very similar, from one to another, imo:
"this is what i do for this 'kind' of music"-folks.

but:
arguing about which tools one uses, which tools others use,
is a puerile & adolescent distraction
from actually getting-on-with-it, from writing & producing & developing _your_ music.

it's more in the domain of watchers & followers than in the domain of people who compose & produce, 
afaict.

i'm not a lofty idealist.
i'm a working composer, working in a commercial world, across a relatively broad range of idioms.
but:
enough is too much.

it might serve better, imo, to find a nice way to increase the amount of "you" that goes into your music,
no matter which tools you decide to use
--- and, certainly, no matter which tools others choose to employ ---
whether those choices prove to be temporary "experiments" or permanent fixtures in your working world.


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## Markus S (Dec 15, 2011)

poseur @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> it might serve better, imo, to find a nice way to increase the amount of "you" that goes into your music,
> no matter which tools you decide to use



I think that makes a great summary. Use whatever tools there are to write great music. Don't blame the tools for the music you write.


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## organix (Dec 15, 2011)

I can really not understand all the problems and discussion about loops.

Loops are nothing more than sounds. 

The result is what counts and it doesn't matter from which source you got the sounds. You can hire own staff for creating sounds and loops or you can buy them on market. If you have the money and budgets for more exclusive sounds, you'll hire very good sounddesigners. 
Creating sounds and loops by your own isn't the job of a composer. A real composer doesn't ask about the formation of sounds. A real composer using sounds and not making them. The trick is always, how to use them. In which combination and which variation. 
A loop will not do better sound if I make them by my own. 

I'm able to knit my own sweater, but it's really better I buy one and I have no problems to see other people with the same clothes. :D 


The problems about "same sounding trailer pieces" are not any loops or sounds. 
The problem is the client who wants exaclty this sound and if you're a real composer you will do what your client asks for. 

A composer who will not use the same sounds as others, shouldn't use any orchestral instruments. They sounding always the same and in VI world, they're often looped.  

One thing is really clear. This discussion about pro and cons of loops isn't the last one. Still waiting for the next thread about sounding of different daw software. :D 

Markus


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## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

Waywyn @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> But seriously, bringing up a question and debating about it is cool, but if someone spreads his nazi point of viewing music and specific composing styles throughout a whole forum on many many posts and threads it makes me kinda sad, ... because honestly currently VI feels like a huge box of apples ... and while I am trying to grab an apple and take a bite, I see that little Gunther worm inside so many apples, telling me the same question over and over again.
> 
> Seriously Lux, I know that I should simply ignore it ... but it is not like I am explicitely searching on VI for Gunthers weekly rant on modern composers, but how is it possible to visit VI and NOT stumble upon this "back then, everything was better whining posts"



Alex, read the headline on this thread: *Pre-made Loops/sounds vs Making your own="real" composer*

Was it I who started this thread? *No!*

Someone else did it and I think I am allowed to post my opinion in this thread, because it is a discussion about the same theme what we had discussed earlier. I think there is nothing wrong to do so!

BTW: Thanks for that "nazi......" What a standard! :roll: For using nearly the same words, in another forum you got banned, if I remember correctly...... .

Stop trying to insult me! You never can, so it is not worth it!


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 15, 2011)

poseur @ 14/12/2011 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Dec 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Today, this year, our life, the galaxy, the universe *: one big loop!!
> ...



Original, actually. :mrgreen:


----------



## Ed (Dec 15, 2011)

germancomponist @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Alex, read the headline on this thread: *Pre-made Loops/sounds vs Making your own="real" composer*
> 
> Was it I who started this thread? *No!*
> 
> ...



Gunther,

Up until your latest point the argument about the use of loops has actually made sense and is relevant, even if I think the "other side" is wrong. 

What you decided to do is claim the following.

1. Trailer music is loop based.
2. Thats why it all sounds the same.
3. Thats why so much music - in general - sounds the same, because everyone's using the same loops. 

All 3 are wrong but the first is demonstrably false while the second is a subjective opinion.

The first point can be disproven easily, even using my own tracks. 

What loops can you hear in this track?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO1xK8CX-Sw

*HINT*: I didnt use *any *preset loops at all in this track,* not even cut up* loops. I made it all myself and the rhythmic elements. What I didnt do is make all my own sounds and most of then come from Heavyocity's Mutations kits. 

How about this one?
http://soundcloud.com/edwardbradshawmus ... a-conquest

*HINT*: I didnt use any loops in this track and its all samples of only *acoustic *instruments. 

Thats just two examples from ME alone. You'd still Im sure say they sound like eveything else. So don't you understand? You disliking this style of music has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "loops". 

Why cant you just admit that you dont like this style of composition and production instead of trying to find ridiculous factually false reasons like claiming that all trailer music is loops or something retarded like that? Or the reason why you think it all sounds similar is DUE to everyone using the same loops? Its simply not true and objectively false.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 15, 2011)

Entschuldigen bitte! Let's keep the Brownshirts out of this!


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 15, 2011)

Ed, you ROCK. Vehhhrrrry Niiiiiice cue! _-)


----------



## poseur (Dec 15, 2011)

organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Loops are nothing more than sounds.


actually, there's both a musical art & a craft to making personally-useable loops.



organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> The result is what counts and it doesn't matter from which source you got the sounds.



it does matters, qualitatively.

and, it matters if you're stealing samples or abusing license-agreements.




organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Creating sounds and loops by your own isn't the job of a composer.



thanks for the new rule, mr. composer!
i'll continue ignoring it, and likely continue getting paid to do so, it seems.



organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> A real composer doesn't ask about the formation of sounds. A real composer using sounds and not making them.



wow!
more hardcore & groovy rules to ignore; fantastic!



organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> The trick is always, how to use them. In which combination and which variation.



ok, then:
here's my new rule; i just made it up!

*there are no tricks* that fool those who want to be substantially moved by music.

feel free to ignore my new rule;
i will.




organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> A loop will not do better sound if I make them by my own.



well, maybe that's because:
a) you're not interested in either the art or the craft of it, or
b) you simply are incapable of making quality, original sounds for yourself.



organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> I'm able to knit my own sweater, but it's really better I buy one and I have no problems to see other people with the same clothes. :D



a sweater is not a piece of music, nor does it make for a meaningful analogy, methinks.
then, again?
there are sweaters, and there are _sweaters_.....




organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> The problem is the client who wants exaclty this sound and if you're a real composer you will do what your client asks for.



hmmm.
a) you can always choose not to take-on those kinds of music-provision jobs, and
b) if you're a real composer (for money), you'll both develop your own voice & 
c) find (w/difficulty, maybe) some way to deliver to the client what they actually need,
which's not necessarily the same thing as what they might have specifically asked-for.




organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> A composer who will not use the same sounds as others, shouldn't use any orchestral instruments. They sounding always the same and in VI world, they're often looped.



very logical.
and:
yay!
another new rule!
i phreaking love this game, now.


----------



## Ed (Dec 15, 2011)

poseur @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Loops are nothing more than sounds.
> ...



Just in case it gets lost, i dont agree that "loops are nothing more than sounds". There is an art to making them, I just dont understand why the people who are so against percussive loops for example, don't think theres any creative or musical aspect of creative sound design. Even the best synth guys wouldnt want to use a preset from Omnisphere or a processed drum for the same reason you wouldnt want to use a percussive loop from Damage. Someone on this forum said they didnt want Hybrid Tools because while it sounds good, would take the fun out of making it themselves. Once again it all comes down to how much creativity you;re putting into your music, if that also includes a loop you added to taste then does it really matter? if you're a traditional orchestral guy,. you can steal loads from old classical works, does that make you a better composer? Why? It can be just as lazy. But if you're someone like Williams, when he steals he usually steals in really interesting ways. /broken record.

@Ned: Cheers


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## poseur (Dec 15, 2011)

Ed @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> But if you're someone like Williams, when he steals he usually steals in really interesting ways. /broken record.



well, he (they) used one (or more) of my "atemporal", harmonically textural loops in (oops! edit) "A.I.".....
so, i suppose i'm obliged to applaud his (their) taste, in that regard.
ha!


----------



## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

Ed @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Why cant you just admit that you dont like this style of composition and production instead of trying to find ridiculous factually false reasons like claiming that all trailer music is loops or something retarded like that? Or the reason why you think it all sounds similar is DUE to everyone using the same loops? Its simply not true and objectively false.



Edward,

I never said that I don`t like trailer music. I like a lot of them very much! 

What I said ist that loops maybe are the reason why so many trailers sound the same. 

So many, not all!!! 

BTW: Great stuff what you posted!

Gunther


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## Ed (Dec 15, 2011)

germancomponist @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> I never said that I don`t like trailer music. I like a lot of them very much!



What you have said over and over in different ways and agreed with people like Hans, Guy B and Jay Asher etc, is that you are "not a modern composer" and don't like people like Zimmer and trailer music. You like classical orchestrated tracks and bemoan the state of scoring right now precisely because a lot of it is in this style. If thats not what you really think I suggest you check what you're saying because thats how it comes across, Im not sure how you thought it could be interpreted any other way. 



> What I said ist that loops maybe are the reason why so many trailers sound the same.



Which as I said is nonsense. I hope you realise that now. 

So you think my tracks do not "sound like lots of other tracks"? because I can find loads of other tracks that are just as "unique" and better than my tracks, thus proving that everything clearly does not sound the same according to your *own *taste! So while I thank you for saying you liked my tracks, it makes NO sense for you to say that.


----------



## Udo (Dec 15, 2011)

I have nothing against using loops per se (assuming they're used creatively).

However, a lot of "compositions" I hear sound very generic, with a boring "sameness", even when no loops are used. I'm not talking about same "style" or "genre" here and yes, I do hear all the nuances and variations, but overall, it often sounds unimagintive. Unfortunately, that also applies to some well regarded composers, occasionally (although I'm sure its probably imposed by a director, at times).

A major cause of the "sameness" is of course a result of the copycat factor; if something becomes popular (regardless of wherther it's good or not  ), people start doing similar things and that includes experienced "composers".

The title "composer' is used far to loosely now. In many cases constructor, assembler, (re)mixer, etc. is a more appropriate term. Some of the stuff produced by those pseudo composers is interestig and original and I hear an impressive piece, occasionally.


----------



## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

Ed @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> What you have said over and over in different ways and agreed with people like Hans, Guy B and Jay Ashes etc, is that you are "not a modern composer" and don't like people like Zimmer and trailer music.



Ha ha, I like Han`s work very much and nowhere you will find only one word, saying that I don`t like his music!


> You like classical orchestrated tracks and bemoan the state of scoring right now precisely because a lot of it is in this style. If thats not what you really think I suggest you check what you're saying because thats how it comes across, Im not sure how you thought it could be interpreted any other way.



Hm, maybe my bad english/american?


> > What I said ist that loops maybe are the reason why so many trailers sound the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Which as I said is nonsense. I hope you realise that now.



As you said, but I am allowed to have my own opinion. 

And, when you listen to TV tracks and only after 2 seconds you identify a loop, heared in another score one week before........? 


> So you think my tracks do not "sound like lots of other tracks"? because I can find loads of other tracks that are just as "unique" as my ones, thus proving that everything clearly does not sound the same according to your *own *taste! So while I thank you for saying you liked my tracks, it makes NO sense for you to say that.



They sound like many others, but they are great to my ears. When I say that many cues sound the same,, this means not that I do not like them all! o-[][]-o


----------



## TheUnfinished (Dec 15, 2011)

If I may have the pleasure of adding yet more irrelevance to the world...

Last year I undertook a little project to write a bunch of tracks for a holiday me and my brother went on. We were driving from the UK, through France, across the Swiss Alps and then into northern Italy to watch the Italian Grand Prix.

I decided to write a bunch of driving game style tracks, most with a 'world' twist. I didn't have much time to do it, so decided I'd try and make all the tracks by arranging loops - just so we would have something fun to listen to.

Well, it was bloody hard work. Writing with loops and making something that sounds half decent is really not that easy. It took me twice as long as writing original stuf would have. 

In the end I made a happy compromise between using some vocal and instrument loops, but doing pretty much everything else from scratch.

Anyway... what I'm trying to say is "Blah blah blah".

Now, for both your amusement and boredom, here is one of those tracks made with some loops and some original drums and synths.

Stolen Sunset, a slice of orchestral Indian breakbeat.


----------



## Ed (Dec 15, 2011)

germancomponist @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Ha ha, I like Han`s work very much and nowhere you will find only one word, saying that I don`t like his music!



Why all the agreement with people like Hans and Guy and Jay (and to a lesser extent Dave) then? You do realise that when they say they dont like modern music they are specifically talking about people like Zimmer. They do not like anything about his music and the composers that have a similar style. 

Some quotes from you in a recent thread....



> "The knowledge about harmonies e.t.c. seems to be nowadays not so important as the poor sound, big and bigger sound.....
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



This has nothing to do with poor English. I dont know how you can rationalise such contradictory stances, but I recommend you think about what you're saying. 



> > > What I said ist that loops maybe are the reason why so many trailers sound the same.
> >
> >
> >
> ...



You're allowed to be wrong, but just so you know this isn't something subjective here its objectively factually demonstrably _wrong_. If you want to keep saying loops have anything to do with this, you're free to keep doing that. People believe a lot of wrong things. 



> And, when you listen to TV tracks and only after 2 seconds you identify a loop, heared in another score one week before........?



Except I can show you tons of tracks in trailers that dont contain any preset loops. yet you have said that 90% of trailers all sound the same. Thats my point, loops have nothing to do with it. You just dont like some other aspect, it has nothing to do with loops.


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## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

I said, "it seems that it has something to do with using loops,..... ." If I am wrong with this, fine.

So what?


----------



## Ed (Dec 15, 2011)

germancomponist @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> I said, "it seems that it has something to do with using loops,..... ." If I am wrong with this, fine.
> 
> So what?



It shows how you see the music you're criticising. Thats all.


----------



## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

I see much more, but I think it is better to not tell it.

Anyone who enjoys working with loops should do so. I have no problem with it.


----------



## Nostradamus (Dec 15, 2011)

Where's my popcorn again?


----------



## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

poseur @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Loops are nothing more than sounds.
> ...



+1

Interesting to see how a "modern composer" is thinking about composing and all arround it....


----------



## Ed (Dec 15, 2011)

germancomponist @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> +1
> 
> Interesting to see how a "modern composer" is thinking about composing and all arround it....



There you go again, what the hell is wrong with you? Do you have a reset button that gets pressed every half an hour?


----------



## Mike Greene (Dec 15, 2011)

Gunther, I'm not a big fan of "+1" posts, especially in debate posts. In this context, it just amounts to taking sides.

But if you *must* post a "+1," then please don't quote the entire things when they're long like this. It makes it very cumbersome for the rest of to scroll down through two screens of text, all for the purpose of seeing a "+1."

Maybe just say, "Poseur makes some good points."


----------



## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

Ed, every 2 minutes. )))

Sorry, but I hadn`t read this post earlier and I thought it was worth it to comment. 

Also wrong?! Ok, this was my last post in this thread, promised!


----------



## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Gunther, I'm not a big fan of "+1" posts, especially in debate posts. In this context, it just amounts to taking sides.
> 
> But if you *must* post a "+1," then please don't quote the entire things when they're long like this. It makes it very cumbersome for the rest of to scroll down through two screens of text, all for the purpose of seeing a "+1."
> 
> Maybe just say, "Poseur makes some good points."



Ah yes, you are right, Mike!

And yes, Poseur makes some good points!


----------



## Ed (Dec 15, 2011)

germancomponist @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Ed, every 2 minutes. )))
> 
> Sorry, but I hadn`t read this post earlier and I thought it was worth it to comment.
> 
> Also wrong?! Ok, this was my last post in this thread, promised!



I was referring to your ridiculous sweeping generalisation of the "modern composer" in such a negative context - AGAIN. Then when someone calls you out on it, you deny you really meant it, then a little later say the same thing.


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## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

Ed, what is a modern composer? Let us define it.

When I talk about "so called modern composers", I mean those people who have bought a big computer, tons of loop libraries, but have no idea to compose a great melody or do a good orchestra arrangement.... .


----------



## Ed (Dec 15, 2011)

germancomponist @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Ed, what is a modern composer? Let us define it.
> 
> When I talk about "so called modern composers", I mean those people who have bought a big computer, tons of loop libraries, but have no idea to compose a great melody or do a good orchestra arrangement.... .



So whats opposite of modern composer? Classical composer. So you would have to define someome like Zimmer as a modern composer yet you said you liked him a lot. Stop using term "modern composer" if the way you use it makes* zero sense. * How about "bad composer"? That fits your description.At least people like Guy Bacos is consistent, he doesnt like any of it.


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## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

"Bad composer" is for sure right, but there are so many "bad composers" who get jobs now.... . So their clients are "bad clients".....?

A wide field?!


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## poseur (Dec 15, 2011)

germancomponist @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Ed, what is a modern composer? Let us define it.
> 
> When I talk about "so called modern composers", I mean those people who have bought a big computer, tons of loop libraries, but have no idea to compose a great melody or do a good orchestra arrangement.... .



ah, then, günther!
maybe i've misunderstood you, here.
but,
if i'm one of your so-called "modern composers":

1) i have at least 2 big computers,
2) i've never puirchased nor stolen any "loop library" --- i make my own, per project, and,
3) apparently i can both compose, arrange & orchestrate for orchestra & write a "great melody"
4) amongst other things.

just fwiw.


----------



## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

poseur @ Fri Dec 16 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed, what is a modern composer? Let us define it.
> ...



It seems that something is getting out of control?!

I never would call you as a "Modern composer", as I described........ .


----------



## noiseboyuk (Dec 15, 2011)

TheUnfinished @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> If I may have the pleasure of adding yet more irrelevance to the world...
> 
> Last year I undertook a little project to write a bunch of tracks for a holiday me and my brother went on. We were driving from the UK, through France, across the Swiss Alps and then into northern Italy to watch the Italian Grand Prix.
> 
> ...



Noiseboyuk likes this.


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## germancomponist (Dec 15, 2011)

Me too..... . 

A well known composer and also a good friend of mine told me some years ago: "When you work with loops, you are a slave and have to compose for this little stupid loops!" ..... .


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## RiffWraith (Dec 15, 2011)

LOL @ the direction this thread took.


----------



## poseur (Dec 15, 2011)

germancomponist @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> It seems that something is getting out of control?!
> 
> I never would call you as a "Modern composer", as I described........ .



no, not out-of-control.....
there's so much inexplicable (to me) bad-feeling in this thread.

i feel as if i've missed a few pieces of this puzzle, here,
where the subject of the thread is not really the subject of the thread.
¿?¿


and,
as i thought might have been a possibility, i simply misunderstood your post;
thanks much for the clarification.


----------



## organix (Dec 15, 2011)

somehow this is a ridiculous discussion.

no none is a better composer if he can make his own loops and no one is more real than others because of his opinon on loops.

I know some composers working for film and tv, they're all "real" and they're all using loops if they fit in their composing work. 

@poseur
it wasn't my intention for give any rules to you. maybe you misunderstood my last post. 
But I agree to you, I'm not able to do very good looped sounds. There are many specialzed people can make this better. But I'm lucky, I know how to use my credit card to buy some loops and sounds for using them. 
Maybe this can be a reaon for you to call me a bad or unreal composer. It's not necessary to call me mr. composer.  

@gunther 
wow, quoting half a page and write a "+1" to annoy me is a really great thing. 
And btw, a well known composer and a friend of mine told me some months ago: "Using loops is no disgrace when they fit well in your arrangement." .... .

o=?


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## KingIdiot (Dec 15, 2011)

Damn, most times I miss all the fun....

o[]) 


BTW, recently I've been re-asessng my thoughts on loops and phrases, and I was wrong in how far you can push them...

In the past, I've said that you can take them really, really far with today's tools

recently I've realized you can take them even further.  It will always be about how you approach their usage. using them doesn't mean just loading them up and hitting a key, nor does it mean just tossing it into melodyne and making adjustments, it means understanding what you want to create and knowing your assets and how to manipulate them into what you want to create.

That, my friends, is the core of what we do in composing with samples anyway. Load up the right articulation and compose, hit the right keyswitch, and play, play the right dynamics and hope the script follows correctly, make MIDI adjustments.. whatever

we know our assets there. Same goes with loops and phrases and manipulating them. There is much that can be done these days with deconstructing phrases and loops. I've been finally applying some new tricks I've done experiments within my head over the past year or so, and I am getting some really cool results.

We live in some amazing times, with our tools. Don't let a preconception hold you back from pushing envelopes.

o-[][]-o


----------



## poseur (Dec 15, 2011)

organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> somehow this is a ridiculous discussion.


like i said --- there seems to be pre-existing "bad vibe", in this thread.



organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> no none is a better composer if he can make his own loops and no one is more real than others because of his opinon on loops.


well, thank you.




organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> I know some composers working for film and tv, they're all "real" and they're all using loops if they fit in their composing work.


me, too.
quite a few.
in fact, i'm very often one of them,
but it seems that i don't quite use "loops" as most folks here seem to define "loops", usually.



organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> it wasn't my intention for give any rules to you. maybe you misunderstood my last post.



i guess so!
sure sounded like authoritative rule-making to me ---
but i do believe you, now.
not that it matters too much, really.



organix @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> But I agree to you, I'm not able to do very good looped sounds. There are many specialzed people can make this better. But I'm lucky, I know how to use my credit card to buy some loops and sounds for using them.
> Maybe this can be a reaon for you to call me a bad or unreal composer. It's not necessary to call me mr. composer.



i would not say that you are a bad or unreal composer for what you seemed to say;
that's silly.
i'd never do that.
and,
since i've never heard any of your work --- why would i say something like that?
i wouldn't.

words are words;
ideas are ideas; a social consensus is social;
but, music is music.

i try to please myself & find the heart of whatever project i'm working on,
and go nuts attempting to do the best work i can do;
that's all i have.
i don't worry about what other folks do or do not do.
it makes my life a bit simpler, maybe.

i've been making my versions of "loops" since the early 1970's,
originally inspired & guided by the work of terry riley, then jon hassell.
i use these "loops" in my scores, often.
it's enjoyable & edifying for me and, to some degree,
these "loops" mark nearly every score i've written.....
big, medium and small:
band, solo & either fully- or partially-orchestral.


----------



## jleckie (Dec 15, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Mon Dec 12 said:


> I haven't find any loops I like either. There's always something I want to change.



Day JAy- U Rule baby.

And German Componista dude. I see your +1 and I raise you 1. (hows that for vague)


----------



## Dan Mott (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks Leckie!! :D


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## Strange (Dec 16, 2011)

I think using pre-made is creative and can result in something interesting when it enhances one's own work and using it demonstrates and contributes to original ideas. If there's something that fits, then ok. Although, technically anything can be rarely well fitted into a mix or a composition without modifying it in some way. High-quality samples of real instruments / musicians also make an expection, because those are hard to substitute with anything else. And since libraries for those exist, most computer music makers probably shouldn't be spending their time reinventing the wheel but rather on something else.

But using pre-made to substitute realizing original ideas, the lack of doing and *practicing* the craft i.e. composing and music production and making something that's interesting and new to listen to. What is it that you are you doing then and why should any composer/producer not strive for realizing their own new ideas rather than copy someone else's that's been heard dozens of times before...?


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## Folmann (Dec 16, 2011)

KingIdiot @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Damn, most times I miss all the fun....
> 
> o[])
> 
> ...



The King has spoken ... the truth.

This thread reminds me a bit about some of the indigenous cultures afraid of seeing mirror or having pictures taken of them - cause it would suck their soul out. 

The reality is that anything recorded becomes "pre-made" once it get's played back. We can debate our subjective stance on this for eternity.

My viewpoint ... Remove Clyde Stubblefield's magical four bars on "Funky Drummer from the universe and see how much music would disappear ... or the Shakuhachi intro of Peter Gabriel's "Sledgehammer" for that matter ... Well ... It was actually a sample triggered from an EMU sampler, so don't know if that counts ...

Cheers!


----------



## jb (Dec 16, 2011)

I am really only concerned with the end result. 

If it sounds good when you are done and you haven't done anything illegal, it is all kosher.

Letting an average listener (you know those people you write the music for) hear your tune and if they enjoy it, telling them you did or did not use a loop will have no effect on what they get out of the song.

I can't imagine finding a looped sound that adds something positive to your song and not using it out of some sort of inner turmoil that makes you feel like less of a composer. Perhaps it is a confidence thing.


----------



## Nostradamus (Dec 17, 2011)

jb @ Fri Dec 16 said:


> If it sounds good when you are done and you haven't done anything illegal, it is all kosher.



Yes. When it fits then it fits. Period.


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## poseur (Dec 17, 2011)

maybe what folks might focus on isn't whether or not you're using pre-made loops and or presets,
but whether or not you've put yourself into your composition & its process,
and
--- from a truly self-critical p.o.v. ---
whether or not the result really sounds & feels that way, to you (and, maybe, to others),
both on its own & in relation to a broad swath of other music, or other scores.

this, of course,
presumes that we might agree that the heart & soul of music is actually self-expression
--- something ephemeral, & truly personal ---
not simply pleasing a client by providing only what _just_ fulfills their expectations;
those expectations often appearing (to me, anyways) as pre-made, pre-formed presets on their own,
in a very particular way.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 17, 2011)

Hear, hear!

'Tis a work day for yours truly (if one can really call it working...), so your post is particularly fitting for my preparation. Merci!


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Dec 17, 2011)

Ed wrote:
"What you have said over and over in different ways and agreed with people like Hans, Guy B and Jay Asher etc, is that you are "not a modern composer" and don't like people like Zimmer and trailer music."

I was going to stay out of this but that is a total misrepresentation of what I believe.

What I believe is the following:

1. Loops and pre-recorded phrases are indeed a useful tool in the toolbox of a modern composer. When I use them, and I DO use them at times, I don't find it emotionally as satisfying as composing without them. When I change them somewhat, it becomes more emotionally satisfying for me.

2. Hans Zimmer does some great scores, some not so great scores, like most composers.

3. Much trailer music is formulaic but there are of course lots of exceptions. The current taste for "epic" with lots of whooshes and booms is not to to my taste and many times does not help sell me on the picture IMHO.

4. If using loops and phrases is a tool in your toolbox that you use you are NOT less of a composer then someone who does not use them. If however, you rely on them almost exclusively because without them you cannot produce a decent composition, then you may be a very good and creative loop based creator but you are not much of a composer.


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## Ed (Dec 17, 2011)

Ok then, sorry Jay if I have misunderstood you


----------



## poseur (Dec 17, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Dec 17 said:


> Hear, hear!
> 
> 'Tis a work day for yours truly (if one can really call it working...), so your post is particularly fitting for my preparation. Merci!



..... working here, too, ned..... fighting daily wee battles w/another score,
both internal & external.....
but, light visibly increasing at end of current tunnel.
yay!
bonne chance, dude.


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