# Too many salesmen on VI



## synthetic (Aug 12, 2011)

Can we please create a policy whereby people who get money from companies need to identify themselves? Look at this thread for one of many examples. I count 9 posts by EW and VSL guys so far, meaning 25% of this conversation is commercials. Guys who work for company X suggesting, wouldn't you know it, their own product. It's even worse when a thread about a library gets posts by or about the competition. That's why I stopped coming to VI a year ago and will probably quit again at this rate. 

And yes, I work for TASCAM. But I don't troll every thread about portable recorders or interfaces. And when I do mention our products I _always_ preface it by saying I work for the company. 

VI is supposed to be "musicians helping musicians." If I want the hard sell I'll go to Guitar Center. Just identifying people as working for one company or another would be a good start.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 12, 2011)

Based on your example, I see a mountain being made from a molehill. Just my opinion, not official policy. It is quite possible that Spaces is actually better than Altiverb, and Jay and Nick are just being honest.


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## lee (Aug 12, 2011)

synthetic @ Fri Aug 12 said:


> I count 9 posts by EW and VSL guys so far, meaning 25% of this conversation is commercials.



Who were the vsl guys?

/Johnny


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 12, 2011)

Dietz is the VSL guy.

But I didn't take anything he said as salesman talk.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 12, 2011)

It is tricky. I am primarily a composer but work part time for EW. What I have learned is that sadly even when I am trying to speak honestly as just a composer and not as an EW rep, the reaction is almost always "of course you think that, you work for EW".

. WHich is why I have abandoned using Ashermusic and now just post as EastWest Lurker.

I am sure that Dietz, Beat, and Nick are all trying to be as honest as they can be and they work for the companies that they do because they believe in their approach.

Anyway, as Ned said, I don't see it as a big deal. Most here are smart enough to factor that in.


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## gsilbers (Aug 12, 2011)

i definitely see the bias. 

i really do not like EW products or how the company is ran and the so called sales they have. 
still i respect other's opinions cause music is a very subjective things and its new music products as well. 
ive seen videos made by proffesionals using 
products that i think it sucks but yet they make it work. some are sponsored, others i know use the product and then get sponsored. 
i worked for one of the top producers in the world and saw how those deals get done. 
but at the same time i see everyday users love a specific product i dont like but others make it work. 
at the same time, i like having VSL , and spectrasonics folks here cause they can also state facts and do tech support type of posts.


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## synthetic (Aug 12, 2011)

lee @ Fri Aug 12 said:


> synthetic @ Fri Aug 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I count 9 posts by EW and VSL guys so far, meaning 25% of this conversation is commercials.
> ...



Thank you for making my point. 

I'm not saying that everyone on the board needs to mention when they've gotten a library or plug-in for free, I think that would make a lot of people uncomfortable. Just people who have gotten a check from the company.


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## chimuelo (Aug 12, 2011)

Just in case I have some avatars that could be useful.
Im a cackling Hen, hence the family portrait.


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## Dietz (Aug 12, 2011)

I clearly identified myself years ago:

-> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ight=#7775

... and I want to make clear that I visit this forum out of personal interest in my "copious" spare time as an active, freelancing engineer and musician. I'm not employed by VSL, but I'm honored by the fact that they like what I do and give me the chance to realize my ideas (like MIR, the Vienna Konzerthaus Organ, and quite some other crazy stuff). 

If you would read my messages here (less than 300 in 6 years), I think you would see that I'm not flooding the forum with spam. Regarding VSL-related postings, I usually just try to keep things in perspective by adding some technical background, and more often than not I offer completely VSL-unrelated information and/or opinions.

My user profile says "Vienna / Europe", too, BTW. 

_[... going back to sell billions of products now ... :roll: ]_


PS: My avatar is a photograph from a musician's tomb-stone here in Vienna, telling the progeny that he was "Tonkünstler", which would roughly translate as "sound artist".


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## Mike Greene (Aug 12, 2011)

I can see Jeff's point, but I'm not all that bothered by it, at least in that particular thread. Granted, Dietz' association with VSL isn't obvious to newcomers, but he's always cool about what he posts, so it doesn't bother me. Everybody already knows who Nick Phoenix is, so even though I don't think QL is in his signature, that doesn't bother me either. And Jay (EastWestLurker) is pretty well identified, both by name and signature, so there's nothing sneaky there.

With that said, I do have one quibble with that particular thread - Christian asks about reverbs, then Nick mentions Spaces. That's cool, especially since he mentions a free demo of Spaces, so it's not just shilling, it's an actual opportunity to try it.

Then Danny chimes in with a "Do try Spaces" comment. That's cool, too, because AFAIK, Danny is one of us (a regular guy) and we want opinions from regular guys.

But then Jay chimes in with his own "Do try Spaces" comment. Now, I'm not trying to pick on Jay, but at that point, a *third* recommendation of Spaces (in only the first six posts of the topic,) this time from a guy *paid* to be an internet presence for EW, does have an appearance of stuffing the ballot box. Mind you, I have zero doubts about Jay's honesty or intentions, so I know it was an honest opinion, rather than shilling for EWQL. But the appearance is kinda unseemly.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 12, 2011)

And rightly so. Jay is completely unseemly.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 12, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 12 said:


> And rightly so. Jay is completely unseemly.



Hey, I have seams!

Seriously though, my screen name is EastWest Lurker so it is pretty obvious who I work for. If when I comment positively on an EW product people want to not take me at my word that I mean what I say and think that I am shilling, I can live with it. I appreciate that Mike believes in my honesty and appreciate anyone else who does as well.

But that said, this is not high school and I am not running for class president. So whatever conclusions they reach, is OK with me.


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## Dietz (Aug 12, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Sat Aug 13 said:


> [...] Danny is one of us (a regular guy) [...]



Hey, cool ... does this mean that I one of THEM now? :mrgreen:


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## lee (Aug 13, 2011)

synthetic @ Fri Aug 12 said:


> lee @ Fri Aug 12 said:
> 
> 
> > synthetic @ Fri Aug 12 said:
> ...



Oh I know who Dietz is! I thought you meant more than one.


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## jamwerks (Aug 13, 2011)

Unfortunate controvercy imo.

The developers present at VI Control raise the overall level of the discussions, and make for richer exchanges.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 13, 2011)

Where one might see a controversy, I see a bunch of guys with time on their hands! :wink:


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## dedersen (Aug 13, 2011)

I really don't see this as a problem at all. In cases where the sales-talk becomes too much, it seems other "regular" people are always offering counter-arguments or at least mentioning the bias.

I hope all the "sales" people stick around and continue to post as much as they do. It's a blessing for this forum. Especially because most of them seem to be here mainly because they share the interest of the rest of the forum members.


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## mverta (Aug 13, 2011)

If you work for a particular company, why would you _not_ want to indicate it in your signature, for example, as Jay does? It's the pushback in this thread which validates the OP's concern. If you aren't using threads as opportunities to push product, which is certainly _not_ the purpose of this forum (outside of dedicated areas?), then you have little reason not to identify yourself.

...Now don't you?

_Mike


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 13, 2011)

Perhaps we need to vote. I posted a poll on the first post of this thread so members can.


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## Marius Masalar (Aug 13, 2011)

This seems kind of silly, to be honest. Do we really need to label things so meticulously? Hell, one of the main reasons I love this community so much is the fact that I can interact directly with the talented developers who make everything possible! If they want to go incognito then frankly that's their prerogative. What do I care?

Developers are obviously going to recommend their own product. If they didn't feel strongly about what they made...they wouldn't have made the damn thing! Likewise, I'm likely to recommend the libraries I use regularly...because I use them and can speak to their strengths. Developers are composers too, remember, so as far as I'm concerned the "musicians helping musicians" mantra is perfectly untarnished.

I mean shall we all start listing all our equipment purchases in signatures too? Seems like a silly and slippery slope. How else can we expect valuable feedback if not from people who know and use the stuff?

Conceptually, I take issue with only one thing, and that's misrepresentation. If a developer were to come on here and tell me that my machine is perfectly capable of running their Product X, and that turned out not to be true...I would have a problem with that. Lucky for me, there are hundreds of other composers on here who gleefully jump at such misrepresentations and offer conflicting views from which I am able to draw my own conclusions. This place balances itself out very effectively and I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## schatzus (Aug 13, 2011)

Silliest discussion...ever!
We got a good thing here..."it ain't broke, don't fix it."


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## midphase (Aug 13, 2011)

We've had plenty of "silly" threads on here, but I don't think this is one of them.


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## Stevie (Aug 13, 2011)

midphase @ 13th August 2011 said:


> We've had plenty of "silly" threads on here, but I don't think this is one of them.



oh yeah... on a daily basis


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 13, 2011)

Anyone who takes peoples' opinions on a forum as any more than peoples' opinions on a forum deserves just they get: having to live with one of several really good reverbs.

Or, as my French friends put it: je m'en fous.


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## synthetic (Aug 13, 2011)

I wasn't asking for people to leave, only to identify themselves in their signatures. Let the reader decide if there suggestion is genuine.


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## Stevie (Aug 13, 2011)

*nod*


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## rgames (Aug 13, 2011)

Maybe I'm stating the obvious:

The developers on this board are much more reserved in their "marketing" type comments than some ardent supporters who are unaffiliated with the companies (trying to avoid the term "fanboy").

So, really, I rely more on comments from developers than from some non-developer members.

rgames


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## Lex (Aug 13, 2011)

rgames @ Sat Aug 13 said:


> Maybe I'm stating the obvious:
> 
> 
> So, really, I rely more on comments from developers than from some non-developer members.
> ...



+1

Not to mention couple of those who got employed to be a "human billboard".

alex


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## germancomponist (Aug 13, 2011)

rgames @ Sat Aug 13 said:


> Maybe I'm stating the obvious:
> 
> The developers on this board are much more reserved in their "marketing" type comments than some ardent supporters who are unaffiliated with the companies (trying to avoid the term "fanboy").
> 
> ...



+2 o=<


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## Mike Greene (Aug 13, 2011)

rgames @ Sat Aug 13 said:


> The developers on this board are much more reserved in their "marketing" type comments than some ardent supporters who are unaffiliated with the companies (trying to avoid the term "fanboy").
> 
> So, really, I rely more on comments from developers than from some non-developer members.


Absolutely. Having Nick back has been great, as well as reading comments by Mike&Mike and Andrew and other developers. I wish Dietz (and Paul and other VSL guys) would post more.

Even if it's promoting their own stuff, it's great, because we get the inside scoop on why certain decisions were made or why certain features are more valuable than we thought or whatever. As you said, these can be much more valuable, and often more reserved, than the fanboy comments.

As Jeff said, the last thing we want to do is chase anyone away. But the more I think about it, a one line signature does make sense. It's not a request to post less. It's just a heads up to those members who *don't* log in every day and know every other member's company affiliations and professional resumes and political leanings.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 13, 2011)

I say their signatures should look like this:

I'M A FREAKING DEVELOPER AND I LOVE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE LITTLE GUYS YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT?


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## jamwerks (Aug 13, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Sat Aug 13 said:


> (...)Even if it's promoting their own stuff, it's great, because we get the inside scoop on why certain decisions were made or why certain features are more valuable than we thought or whatever



+ 1


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## Dietz (Aug 13, 2011)

Is this obvious enough now?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 13, 2011)

2010 Salary, credit and banking reports would be good in your sig as well...


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## Mike Greene (Aug 13, 2011)

And the black font doesn't stand out enough. Maybe a bright red. Is there a way to make it strobe?


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## gsilbers (Aug 13, 2011)

i think i care more about the crappy search functions in this forum. 
every month there is a new "what is the best sampled piano?" :|

btw, seems to me that most here are sponsored in one way or another.
still, its from products id like to have and not someone from a credit card company or diet products .


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 13, 2011)

You know what else makes me mad?

PAPER CLIPS! They're all curly and stuff.


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## gsilbers (Aug 13, 2011)

aha... come out w your true colors...

add in your avatar that u work for Staples!


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## mverta (Aug 13, 2011)

So... among the snarky and/or minimizing replies, I've yet to see a convincing argument for why those with an inherent bias or conflict of interest shouldn't reveal as much. (That's unfair, admittedly, as there isn't one.) If you're among those who don't care one way or another, then surely you don't care if such members were identified, which pleases both camps, thus a win-win.

Since the majority polled likes the idea, and the minority has no problem with the idea, I assume we will see this implemented post-haste. An idea with absolutely no downside... how rare!



_Mike


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## Dietz (Aug 13, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> And the black font doesn't stand out enough. Maybe a bright red. Is there a way to make it strobe?



I tried to use bold red, but I can't use the forum's format tools on my mobile browser here (being on a vacation far out of town right now). 8-)


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## lux (Aug 14, 2011)

mverta @ Sat Aug 13 said:


> So... among the snarky and/or minimizing replies, I've yet to see a convincing argument for why those with an inherent bias or conflict of interest shouldn't reveal as much. (That's unfair, admittedly, as there isn't one.) If you're among those who don't care one way or another, then surely you don't care if such members were identified, which pleases both camps, thus a win-win.
> 
> Since the majority polled likes the idea, and the minority has no problem with the idea, I assume we will see this implemented post-haste. An idea with absolutely no downside... how rare!



I agree with Mike. No downsides. 

And, besides all the funny jokes, its clear that the majority of the devs here appear to post mostly when some sensible argument is raised in relation to the product they sell. Nothing wrong of course, but stating clearly where one comes from is a fair attitude imo. The least i can expect from civil people.


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 14, 2011)

I'll voice my support for this as a developer. If you're confident about your product then you shouldn't need to hide who you are. In other words, the library speaks for itself


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## Dietz (Aug 14, 2011)

zircon_st @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> I'll voice my support for this as a developer. If you're confident about your product then you shouldn't need to hide who you are. In other words, the library speaks for itself


Hmmmm .... when the Internet was young it was supposed to be offensive to put too much advertising (or actually any company talk at all) into your sig or profile ... times have changed, it seems.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 14, 2011)

Dietz @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> zircon_st @ Sun Aug 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll voice my support for this as a developer. If you're confident about your product then you shouldn't need to hide who you are. In other words, the library speaks for itself
> ...



It didn't seem to work as he's been here 6 years and I never noticed he was a developer. (o) This is why we need clear logos, I don't read people's sigs.


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## JJP (Aug 14, 2011)

All the same, I followed Dietz's lead and changed my signature just to be safe. I'm not a developer, but I have worked on some projects discussed on these boards.


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## RiffWraith (Aug 14, 2011)

LOL ^


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 14, 2011)

I changed my sig as well; I figure it's time to come clean.


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## mverta (Aug 14, 2011)

As an alternative to smartass signatures, how about an avatar icon or title - something with a little prestige? These people, after all, make VI possible... while "alerting" others of their potential conflicts, they could be honored at the same time, and rightfully so.


_Mike


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 14, 2011)

Perhaps the easiest thing would be to give them stars as well, but of different colour?


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## mverta (Aug 14, 2011)

Well, you'd want to know who exactly someone works for, I just think this could be thought of less as a scarlet letter and more as a badge of honor.

_Mike


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## wst3 (Aug 14, 2011)

Mike V - I think you hit it square on - it does not have to be a negative thing, if you have the chops (and you need a lot of chops) to run a sample library company then you should be proud of that.

An earlier comment pointed out that once upon a time it was considered rude to 'plug' your company in your signature - but commercial operations of any kind were once forbidden on the internet - we have to evolve and grow.

And Dietz - that is one funny signature! I love it, and I think it captures the real spirit of the debate! (Although Ned's is pretty darned good too - and it points out yet another possible conflict - although most of the companies for which I've been a beta tester have required that I not divulge that information.)


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## mverta (Aug 14, 2011)

I think it's the minority of companies who don't want to reveal they might have beta testers - as virtually everyone does; they just don't want any of the details of testing revealed. I work in both software development and testing for an altogether different industry, but whenever I feel compelled to defend, comment or critique software, I always let my associations be known, whether it's as a tester or as a developer. To date, that's never hurt my contributions... but then again, I don't shill even for the company I work for. When something in a release sucks, I'll say as much publicly. In fact, that sort of thing is why they hired me in the first place. I don't pull punches, and I don't blow sunshine. Keeps the onus on the producers to make good product, full stop.  You might've noticed that from me, here, though so far it hasn't generated any warm fuzzies between me and any of the producers.  

Regardless, though this was sort of a second-tier thread in the Off-Topic forum, I truly believe adopting this sort of identification would elevate the VI-C experience more than a little bit. For lots of reasons.


_Mike


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## impressions (Aug 14, 2011)

i don't get this, we have a local musicians forum in my country where the salesman have to identified by as such. 
but, we all here (should) have good ears. couldn't we determine by ourselves if what's being tossed at us is really good, or just another good attempt to what's already in the market?

usually if someone makes a hidden commercial here there is going to be some dissecting and demonstrations...so what's the big deal? 
by the way if you know someone who needs a composer....jk


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## mverta (Aug 14, 2011)

It's not a big deal, that's the point: there is no reason to hide one's biases and conflicts. Rather, it should be a point of pride. Keeping things on the level, open, and transparent is no great effort, and it has only upsides for all involved. For everyone who isn't using the forum to shill product, anyway. And if you're correct that that's a minority, then there's even less reason to resist it.



_Mike


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 14, 2011)

I think I've finally understood that this 'coming out' of devs would greatly benefit newbies to this forum and to the craft. Just because I/we can sniff out a sales pitch disguised as a tip doesn't mean that someone else with less experience will as well.


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## mverta (Aug 14, 2011)

We should also not minimize the potential benefits developers can gain, feedback-wise, once the userbase is aware they're around, and not just the always welcome, "Thanks, great product!" I used to have a concern that once people knew I worked for the company, I'd get flooded with support requests, and hounded for info on future releases, but very little of that ever happened. What I have gotten was a lot of "since you're listening, let me tell you something I wish it did..." suggestions, many of which directly influenced future versions of the software, to its great benefit.

I think the Mikes from Cinesamples presence here is the _perfect_ model for the benefits in action. Their transparency has led to both intensive feedback from users which has directly influenced the improving of their product, and also generated a lot of goodwill and, likely, sales. I, for one, consider it a great privilege to be able to have open dialog and input with the people I'm going to be sending hard-earned money to, and have any potential say in what I'll be paying for. I think that's priceless.


_Mike


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## germancomponist (Aug 14, 2011)

mverta @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> I think the Mikes from Cinesamples presence here is the _perfect_ model for the benefits in action. Their transparency has led to both intensive feedback from users which has directly influenced the improving of their product, and also generated a lot of goodwill and, likely, sales. I, for one, consider it a great privilege to be able to have open dialog and input with the people I'm going to be sending hard-earned money to, and have any potential say in what I'll be paying for. I think that's priceless.
> 
> 
> _Mike



+1


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## MichaelL (Aug 14, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> I think I've finally understood that this 'coming out' of devs would greatly benefit newbies to this forum and to the craft. Just because I/we can sniff out a sales pitch disguised as a tip doesn't mean that someone else with less experience will as well.




To follow up...I've actually started to turn a deaf ear to the hype. The recent brass wars come to mind. I've heard some excellent mock-ups on this site, produced by guys like Mike Verta, John Graham and Alex Temple (just to name three) -- that were created BEFORE HB or CB, and in some cases before HS and LASS. 

So, before I reach for the credit card I look all the sample libraries that I already have and ask, "do I really need that?" Does it sound that much better? Will it make my life that much easier? If the answer is no, or if the differences/improvements would only be meaningful to other musicians, but not my clients or audience ... then maybe it's not so "must have." 

My 2 cents

Michael


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 14, 2011)

I think that, even though my mother tongue is French, my English is really far better than fair. So why am I having such a hard time understanding this phrase?:



MichaelL @ 14/8/2011 said:


> "do I really need that?"


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 14, 2011)

I understand that someone got under Jeff's skin in that reverb thread, so no offense...and with no snarkiness whatsoever: this is really stupid, and it does bother me.

Who here has abused his or her position to troll for sales in the seven years this forum has being going?

To me it just puts up an unnecessary barrier, when we've enjoyed free exchange between developers and normal humans without any problem whatsoever. Ned's signature sort of underlines my point; every professional gets NFR software sometimes for promotional consideration.


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## MichaelL (Aug 14, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> I think that, even though my mother tongue is French, my English is really far better than fair. So why am I having such a hard time understanding this phrase?:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sorry Ned. I mean that before I give into the hype and knee jerk into buying every new sample library I ask myself if it is something that I can do without. In other words do I really need CB or HB or will the EWQLSO Brass and Project SAM Brass that I already own be sufficient?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 14, 2011)

Oh, that was a joke! I also have trouble with the correct use of the word 'enough' when it comes to software and synths, but I'm working on that.


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## snowleopard (Aug 14, 2011)

The answer to that of course is always, "a little more".


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## MichaelL (Aug 14, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> Oh, that was a joke! I also have trouble with the correct use of the word 'enough' when it comes to software and synths, but I'm working on that.



Got it now. :oops:


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## wst3 (Aug 14, 2011)

mverta @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> I think it's the minority of companies who don't want to reveal they might have beta testers - as virtually everyone does; they just don't want any of the details of testing revealed.<snippity>



In at least a couple of cases where I was asked to sign an NDA that included a provision that I was not to reveal my role as a beta tester (hypothetically of course<G>) it was done to prevent leaks about new releases, and to eliminate pressure on the team to reveal information. If no one knows you know, well, they don't ask pointed questions. I think it made sense, and I didn't really mind, most of the time.

I did run into one truly bizarre situation way back in the 1980s where one company developing hardware and another developing software would have almost certainly benefited if they'd known that each one was facing similar and complimentary, problems. I did my best, without violating the NDAs, to get them to talk. It was frustrating!

But I digress...

Someone here pointed out that we, the consumers, benefit greatly, and on many levels, by having this kind of discourse with the developers.  I think that Sonokinetic, Tonehammer and Cinesamples - among others, but they seem like the most obvious cases - did a lot to gain the trust of folks here by being present and answering questions, and even updating products based on feedback here.

Ironically, access to the developers is exactly why I became a beta tester for several different tools. If I used a particular program, and it didn't do everything I wanted, I'd try to get on the beta team. Then I'd have a much better chance of seeing my feature requests implemented. Beyond that one has to be pretty serious about a program to beta test - the hours spent testing usually outweigh the 'free' software!

But here, well, all I have to do is post a post I'd likely post anyway, and there's a chance it will be heard, and maybe even acted on.

I know that nothing lasts forever, but I think we have a pretty good thing here, and the founders and moderators are to be commended for not making too many changes.

Asking developers to identify themselves seems to me a win-win. Not everyone may see it that way, which is fine. Ask two members here a question you often get three answers<G>.


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## JJP (Aug 14, 2011)

Part of what I like about this forum is that it allows professionals to speak without having to be a spokesperson for their employers or their own businesses. Forcing them to display their companies would rob them of that ability. They wouldn't be able to speak their own opinion without some sort of a pathetic disclaimer like, "This is my personal opinion and not that of the company whose logo prominently identifies me on this board."

Furthermore, some people's employers may not want them using the company logo or name as an identifier because it makes them appear as spokespeople for the company. Many companies in this day and age don't want employees speaking on behalf of the company without permission. It's not always a benefit. The gaffe about the illegal score trading market in the Cineorch thread is a perfect example of how this can backfire.

Finally, do disclosures only apply to manufacturers of equipment and software? If someone wants to discuss film X or composer Y, would a person have to disclose her "bias" by identifying herself and stating that she worked with or for composer Y on films X and Z before contributing to the discussion? 

That would probably drive me from the board. I can't always disclose that information, and I usually just don't want to publicly disclose that information for a variety of professional and personal reasons. Discretion is sometimes necessary in my work. I couldn't justify my participation on this board if it required publicly disclosing my work history or current employer.


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## mverta (Aug 14, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> To me it just puts up an unnecessary barrier, when we've enjoyed free exchange between developers and normal humans without any problem whatsoever.



Interesting that you believe truth is a barrier which would prohibit free exchange; that the board cannot prosper under transparency and accountability; that simply knowing the full depth or breadth of people's affiliations would destroy the conduct here.

When you concede that a system cannot survive under the blanket of truth, you concede the system has failed.

And if your position is that such a truth is indeed destructive, I look forward to your proof of such. We have evidenced threads where failure to disclose biases has led to conflict. Where is your evidence that merely knowing someone's affiliation has prevented meaningful exchange? Absent such proof, your position is untenable, bordering on irrational. And not the majority opinion. This certainly hasn't been Cinesamples experience.






_Mike


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## autopilot (Aug 14, 2011)

And then there are threads like this - (which thankfully we don't seem to have too much of) 

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22423&highlight= (http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... highlight=)

I vote for disclosure, but I also think the people we are talking about (not the shill in that thread above) have without exception handled themselves really well and I hope they all hang around!


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## choc0thrax (Aug 14, 2011)

You guys can squabble all you want but the poll at the top of the page laughs at your opinions, it cares not what you think. Devs be gettin' logos, yo.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 14, 2011)

I'll reference the Bard: "Much Ado About Nothing"


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 14, 2011)

Okay Mike, then I'm on the border between rational and irrational. But I'm holding on even if my opinion is untenable. 

If you see Dietz' and Ned's current sigs you'll see why this is my opinion.

Jay is right - which is unusual.

To quote David Mamet...I'd better not.


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## José Herring (Aug 15, 2011)

This whole thread reminds me of The Scarlet Letter. 

I voted yes, but I'd like to change my vote now. I was originally thinking that it would check Guy Bacos and make him behave better, but I'd rather put up with him than to single out or ostracize any member here, developer or not.


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## mverta (Aug 15, 2011)

Dietz' and Ned's sarcastic signatures are borderline hysterical absurdities where no such exaggeration was necessary. But usually that's what takes the place of a cogent argument when there is none, which I notice you've also bypassed on.

And despite Jay's curiously contradictory opinion that it's "much ado," (he fully discloses his associations) I again stress that what we're talking about requires next to zero effort on anyone's part and provides nothing but upsides for everyone. If that constitutes a hardship, we've hit a new low. And Jose, you, too, would have to demonstrate a time when simply knowing someone worked for a company caused them to be ostracized, if you plan on opposing the idea.



So at this point we have a majority in favor on the poll, a minority who isn't bothered one way or another, and the opposed who say this will negatively impact discourse, yet can't provide a single example of such. We have precedent in multiple instances demonstrating the positive effects of the idea, no examples to the contrary, and a feature which takes next to no effort to implement.


I rarely get to witness a total shutout in a debate. But I like it! 



_Mike


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## lux (Aug 15, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> I understand that someone got under Jeff's skin in that reverb thread, so no offense...and with no snarkiness whatsoever: this is really stupid, and it does bother me.
> 
> Who here has abused his or her position to troll for sales in the seven years this forum has being going?



hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaha

....ha?


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## lux (Aug 15, 2011)

choc0thrax @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> You guys can squabble all you want but the poll at the top of the page laughs at your opinions, it cares not what you think. Devs be gettin' logos, yo.



...and this is the definitive quote. Ditto.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 15, 2011)

Since I'm leaving this thread, and changing my signature, I thought I would quote it here so future readers know what some of you are referring to:



> I get free software from Spectrasonics, U-He and Sonic Charge in exchange for finding the odd bug or two. I'd love to do the same for East West, VSL, Cinesamples, etc, but nooooooooo, not good enough... not smart enough? Cute enough? Whatever! :roll: :evil:



FWIW, I'm changing my sig in part because it was never meant to last more than a day or two anyways, and also because I'm actually on the fence on the issue being discussed, and I don't want my joke to be thought of as my definitive position. In fact, I will go with whatever the majority decides.


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## Daryl (Aug 15, 2011)

So Jeff can be trusted to own up as to who his employers are as and when he deems it's appropriate, but all other developers can't be trusted and should announce who their employers are via their sig, even though there may be no conflict of interest? Surely there should be one rule for everyone?

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 15, 2011)

mverta @ Sun Aug 14 said:


> And despite Jay's curiously contradictory opinion that it's "much ado," (he fully discloses his associations)
> 
> _Mike



That was at Doug's direction when he hired me.


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## chimuelo (Aug 15, 2011)

I get free hardware from manufacturers to use, and have dozens of different names and come here and make fun of the nullfiers, scientists and worshippers of emulations of the emulations, and assistants, to the assistants..
Eventually they'll go out of business and I can start using consumer software and tell everyone how hardware sucks in comparison.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2011)

Okay Lux, you're on. Who has abused his or her position?

Or what I really mean is Who has abused his or her position and got away with it?


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't think the issue is spamming or abusing a position at all (although I think the topic "Too many salesmen" probably put an antagonistic spin on the discussion). It's just context. When comments are made about a product, it's useful to know if those comments are coming from the developer of that product or a competing one. Sure, some affiliations are common knowledge, but others aren't, and new readers may be unaware.

I'm kind of surprised that there's any objection at all. I would think if someone works for a sample library developer they would want people to be aware of that when they post.

In the case of beta testers with NDA situations that's understandable and doesn't bother me.



Daryl @ Mon Aug 15 said:


> So Jeff can be trusted to own up as to who his employers are as and when he deems it's appropriate, but all other developers can't be trusted and should announce who their employers are via their sig, even though there may be no conflict of interest? Surely there should be one rule for everyone



Jeff works for Tascam. On a website about virtual instruments, tascam products aren't going to be discussed very much (probably rarely if at all outside of the hardware section). In such a case, putting it in a sig doesn't seem necessary especially if he does make clear his affiliation when the topic is tascam products or competing ones. And in general I don't think it matters whether devs put that info in a sig or mention it when posting about applicable topics, although I would think that many devs would prefer the former simply for convenience.


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## Synesthesia (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't have any problem with this. My sig lists my own website and Spitfire's website, so I hope its obvious........!

I'll try and make my Avatar change now.


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## synthetic (Aug 15, 2011)

I changed my "location" to "TASCAM Guy, CA" in the interest of fairness. I'll add a sig too if that's what we decide.

Hell, I have a badge for my _zodiac sign_ for some reason.


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## Mike Greene (Aug 15, 2011)

To the casual reader in the thread Jeff linked, where three of the first six posts (!) were raves for Spaces, this reader should have the right to know that one of those raves was from the creator of Spaces, and another of those raves was from a guy who's paid to troll this board and bang the company drum whenever possible. Shouldn't he?


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 15, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Mon Aug 15 said:


> another of those raves was from a guy who's paid to troll this board and bang the company drum whenever possible.



I trust you don't mean me, because I am not paid to help sell products. I am only paid to get people help when they need it and give people info EW wants them to know. Also, to challenge statements about EW and its products that I believe to be unfair or inaccurate, which I actually did before I was hired by them.

I have raved about Spaces because of how good I think it is and I would do so even if I did not work for EW. 

Kirk Hunter's libraries, which I have praised repeatedly, are not EW. Sonivox Orchestral library, which I have praised, is not EW, All 3 Spectrasonics libraries, which I have praised, are not EW. UAD plugins, which I have praised, are not EW.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 15, 2011)

kb123 @ Mon Aug 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Greene @ Mon Aug 15 said:
> ...



I hardly ever have made a negative comment about _anyone's_ library. You can count the ones I have made here in 4 or so years on one hand and most were made before I took the gig.

And_ of course_, I am not going to come on a forum and make a negative comments on an EW product.


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## midphase (Aug 15, 2011)

Just wanted to chime in and say that I'm all for developers and their employees identifying themselves as such in a clear way on this forum. It makes sense and as Mike Verta pointed out, there is no downside to that.

I do want to say that this does not solve the issue of bias towards a particular product or against another. I'm good friends with several developers, so is Jay and so are many around here. Many of us have done and continue to do demos (and get free NFR's) for many products around here. 

We all try to be fair when we post a comment in a thread relating to a particular product, but it's very difficult to be 100% impartial when you just received a $1500 sample library in the mail for free or even got paid for your demo which is now moving thousands of units. The right approach would really be to censor ourselves, and many do so (I don't believe I've ever read for instance an opinion post from someone like Colin O'Malley who does many of the demos for many sample libraries...a very wise choice on his part).

All I can say is that everyone around here should exercise their own judgment on how to perceive someone's endorsement or not of a particular product. All is not as it seems and some of the time, there are other reasons behind some of the posts regardless of who they came from or what they say. The best way to evaluate a product still remains to listen carefully to the demos, read closely specs, read reviews when they come out from legitimate sources, and ideally try to get a demo of the product (which is why I LOVE the idea behind the Terapack, I wish more developers would do that).


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 15, 2011)

midphase @ Mon Aug 15 said:


> Just wanted to chime in and say that I'm all for developers and their employees identifying themselves as such in a clear way on this forum. It makes sense and as Mike Verta pointed out, there is no downside to that.
> 
> I do want to say that this does not solve the issue of bias towards a particular product or against another. I'm good friends with several developers, so is Jay and so are many around here. Many of us have done and continue to do demos (and get free NFR's) for many products around here.
> 
> ...



If I get a non-EW library for free and do not like it, I delete it from my drive and say nothing positive or negative about it. People here can trust that if I say I like a library, I like it and use it.

And actually Kays, just a few days ago Colin said something to the effect of HB was one of the best libraries he has ever used.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2011)

If I say I like something I don't like it's because I want it given to me.

Hey wait a minute...


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## midphase (Aug 15, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Aug 15 said:


> And actually Kays, just a few days ago Colin said something to the effect of HB was one of the best libraries he has ever used.



HA...shows you how much I actually read this forum. Honestly the Off Topics and the Working in the Industry sections are the only two I frequent on a regular basis!

I would argue though that if Colin had done demos for both HB and CB, he would have probably taken the 5th!


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