# Difference between cc7 and cc11?



## P.T. (Feb 10, 2009)

What is the difference between cc7 and cc11?

Which do you prefer to use?
What are the practical reasons for using one or the other?

What value do you use as the baseline around which you make the volume changes?


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## JonFairhurst (Feb 10, 2009)

I adjust CC11 (or, sometimes, the mod-wheel, if that's how the instrument was programmed) to control the expression of the instrument. Often this goes hand in hand with the velocity.

I adjust CC7 to control the mix. 

I might adjust CC11 to create a complex curve within the duration of a single note. I adjust CC7 to an overall level, and might adjust it as much as once per phrase - rarely more, and often less.

A well-programmed instrument would adjust not just the volume, but the timbre of the note when CC11 (or the mod-wheel, again, if this is the chosen programming method) is varied. CC7 should NEVER affect the timbre, only the volume.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 10, 2009)

Backing up a little, any MIDI CC can be routed to control any parameter - they're all the same until you do that. However, in the MIDI spec CC7 is Volume CC11 is Expression.

So if there is a standard, it's usually what Jon says: CC11 is a performance controller and CC7 is a mix level controller. But unlike a regular mixer fader, it's normal to use CC7 just to trim the level - i.e. it would default to 127 and you'd just leave it there. In all honesty I can't remember the last time I used CC7 to mix - I use the onscreen mixer faders for mixing and sometimes the plug-in's level control to get a healthy level to the mixer.


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## Scott Cairns (Feb 11, 2009)

One way it might help to think of it is CC7 is 'Master Volume' - you can set this once for a track.

CC11 is 'volume within colume' e.g; you can create voume swells, crescendos etc without affecting the _overall_ volume of your track.

Nick is right though, if you dont mess with CC7, itll kind of stay at a default level. Dont know if its 100? Or simply 127 (max volume). Probably depends on the synth or sample library.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 11, 2009)

AFAIK, however, unfortunately there is no way to set i.e Kontakt or the EXS 24 for "Expression" to globally behave as what Jon described:" A well-programmed instrument would adjust not just the volume, but the timbre of the note when CC11 (or the mod-wheel, again, if this is the chosen programming method) is varied."

It must be done in every library individually. If I am mistaken, someone please let me know.


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## synthetic (Feb 11, 2009)

The short answer is, I use CC11 for phrasing and CC7 for volume. 

Most samplers don't let you interrupt CC11, since it's in the MIDI spec as a volume controller. The nice thing about it is that most samplers and softsynths are pre-programmed for it, so you don't need to do anything. If you're going to program your own curve (using filters, DEF, whatev) you're better off using a different controller number. I use CC11 all the time for phrasing and with my breath controller. I think the main difference between the two is how the sequencer handles them. CC7 will show up as volume automation on a Logic track.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 11, 2009)

synthetic @ Wed Feb 11 said:


> Most samplers don't let you interrupt CC11, since it's in the MIDI spec as a volume controller. The nice thing about it is that most samplers and softsynths are pre-programmed for it, so you don't need to do anything. If you're going to program your own curve (using filters, DEF, whatev) you're better off using a different controller number. I use CC11 all the time for phrasing and with my breath controller. I think the main difference between the two is how the sequencer handles them. CC7 will show up as volume automation on a Logic track.



True, but if you convert it to Hyperdraw (region based automation) then you can have both cc7 and cc11.


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## madbulk (Feb 11, 2009)

The short answer is, I don't use CC7 unless I realize toward the very end of the project that my burned out ears should lower the whole violin section.


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## synthetic (Feb 11, 2009)

Yeah? You don't use CC7 to balance the multiple samples in a section? Are you using a farm computer or is everything running on one Mac or PC? I don't have enough I/O to bring every instrument in seperatly from my Giga PCs to my Mac, so I submix down to 5 stereo pairs.


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