# Logic 10.4.2 released



## stonzthro (Sep 27, 2018)

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203718

Lots of bug fixes!


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## resound (Sep 27, 2018)

Good news for articulation ID users:

Notes without Articulation IDs are no longer treated as having Articulation ID 1.
CC events recorded to a track with an Articulation set loaded no longer have an articulation ID unexpectedly attached.


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## prodigalson (Sep 27, 2018)

The Sound Library can be relocated to an external storage device.

FINALLY!!


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## MrZarlton (Sep 27, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> The Sound Library can be relocated to an external storage device.
> FINALLY!!


Been a long time coming!


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## babylonwaves (Sep 27, 2018)

Up to three output switch events can now be assigned per articulation.
this is great news, expect Articulation Sets for VSL libraries in the near future ...


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## Vik (Sep 27, 2018)

Imported multi-track stems can follow or define Project Tempo.
Smart Tempo now analyzes the tempo of MIDI performances recorded without a metronome.


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 27, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> The Sound Library can be relocated to an external storage device.
> FINALLY!!


THIS IS NOT A DRILL!! It's an all or nothing proposition though. You can't split the library between drives. I'll take it though. Thanks, Logic devs.



resound said:


> Good news for articulation ID users:
> 
> Notes without Articulation IDs are no longer treated as having Articulation ID 1.
> CC events recorded to a track with an Articulation set loaded no longer have an articulation ID unexpectedly attached.


Can confirm this works as advertised. Usefully, you can still place articulation ID's on CC events if you want to, post recording. Everyone's a winner.


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## stonzthro (Sep 27, 2018)

Oh man, so glad they fixed the MIDI CC articulation issue!


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## teammwrp (Sep 27, 2018)

90* automation changes! whaaat


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## WindcryMusic (Sep 27, 2018)

Yep, this update looks pretty promising. Aside from the articulation fixes, I also like the fact that they list several fixes with scrolling of the Piano Roll, in particular with a touch pad … exactly that kind of thing has been bedeviling me for several versions now, and I’m eagerly hoping they might have finally addressed it.


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## Leon Portelance (Sep 27, 2018)

How to you get it?


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## Matt Riley (Sep 27, 2018)

Leon Portelance said:


> How to you get it?


The App Store.


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## tav.one (Sep 27, 2018)

Loving the ARA bug fixes too, hoping Melodyne to finally release the long due update.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 27, 2018)

Leon Portelance said:


> How to you get it?



As Matt Riley says. But note that all updates show up under the Apple menu (next to App Store) when they're available.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 27, 2018)

stonzthro said:


> Lots of bug fixes!



And some nice features.


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## anp27 (Sep 27, 2018)

teammwrp said:


> 90* automation changes! whaaat



I have difficulty understanding what this one means, could you explain?


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## anp27 (Sep 27, 2018)

"Logic no longer sometimes starts to respond sluggishly after recalling screensets."

THIS ONE OMG. I have waited years and years and sent numerous Feedback Requests for this! 
Basically it means that now when you switch between Screensets, you no longer get that 2 second lag where you see your Desktop before switching screen sets. I can finally use the screen sets feature at long last, THANK YOU LOGIC TEAM!


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## Geoff Grace (Sep 27, 2018)

Vik said:


> Smart Tempo now analyzes the tempo of MIDI performances recorded without a metronome.


THIS is the biggest feature as far as I'm concerned—_if_ it's done well.

Best,

Geoff


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## anp27 (Sep 27, 2018)

"Fader values of -10 dB or less now display a minus sign before the number."
Cool that they fixed this one too, was kind of annoying before...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 27, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> THIS is the biggest feature as far as I'm concerned—_if_ it's done well.



Yeah, I'm really excited about that.


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## Kent (Sep 27, 2018)

anp27 said:


> I have difficulty understanding what this one means, could you explain?


I think what he (she?) meant is 90 degrees, as in instantaneous automation changes.


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## Kent (Sep 27, 2018)

anp27 said:


> "Logic no longer sometimes starts to respond sluggishly after recalling screensets."
> 
> THIS ONE OMG. I have waited years and years and sent numerous Feedback Requests for this!
> Basically it means that now when you switch between Screensets, you no longer get that 2 second lag where you see your Desktop before switching screen sets. I can finally use the screen sets feature at long last, THANK YOU LOGIC TEAM!


I thought this meant that Logic doesn’t become slower and slower the more you switch screensets? Like, not the actual switching speed, but the speed of utility afterward...

Maybe I completely misinterpreted though.


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## jonathanwright (Sep 28, 2018)

I can't get the 90 degree automation thing to work, I've also tried a few key combos while dragging as node 'over' another one, but it just deletes it as usual.


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## A.G (Sep 28, 2018)

CC Articulation sending is bad. The Controller assignment set in the Art Sets Editor is sent after the actual Note event.
That means the Vienna factory Matrice Cells will not switch properly, as well as many other instruments which need CC art mapping.


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## mc_deli (Sep 28, 2018)

"There is no longer a lag when selecting tracks in large projects."

Interesting... any MBP users with 10.4.2 wanna report on this with 100+ track projects?


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 28, 2018)

A.G said:


> CC Articulation sending is bad. The Controller assignment set in the Art Sets Editor is sent after the actual Note event.
> That means the Vienna factory Matrice Cells will not switch properly, as well as many other instruments which need CC art mapping.


Is that a new thing in 10.4.2 or has it always been the case?


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## jacobthestupendous (Sep 28, 2018)

ka00 said:


> With this update, this is the first time I've ever had Logic hang in the middle of an offline bouncing a session. This one project I've been working on won't export/bounce. I've rebooted, and tried numerous times, always hangs, but in a different spot each time.
> 
> This has never happened to me before. Highly ilLogical?
> 
> ...


Anyone else seeing this? I don't want to update if I'm going to have trouble _bouncing._


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## babylonwaves (Sep 28, 2018)

jacobthestupendous said:


> Anyone else seeing this? I don't want to update if I'm going to have trouble _bouncing._


all fine here


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## Kent (Sep 28, 2018)

I had an issue bouncing (realtime, selected loop region) when I first updated - it would keep bouncing and bouncing without end. Once I restarted my computer, however, the problem went away. Was it a bug? A one-time thing? Time will tell, but it doesn't seem repeatable.


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 28, 2018)

Just bounced a full track offline here, no issues.


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## teammwrp (Sep 28, 2018)

kmaster said:


> I think what he (she?) meant is 90 degrees, as in instantaneous automation changes.


This is what I meant.

And, he


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## jonathanwright (Sep 28, 2018)

I just read that there are now key commands to ‘select and operate’ transform presets!

I can’t test right now, but if that’s the case, it’s fantastic.


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## Begfred (Sep 28, 2018)

jonathanwright said:


> I just read that there are now key commands to ‘select and operate’ transform presets!
> 
> I can’t test right now, but if that’s the case, it’s fantastic.


Yes it works fine! 

But I tough I could create a shortcut to copy CC1 data from the track area but that's not the case. ''Copy selected events, then apply operations'' mode is selected it does not put any data in the clipboard. Still have to open midi editor or event list to copy CC data.


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## samphony (Sep 28, 2018)

Begfred said:


> Yes it works fine!
> 
> But I tough I could create a shortcut to copy CC1 data from the track area but that's not the case. ''Copy selected events, then apply operations'' mode is selected it does not put any data in the clipboard. Still have to open midi editor or event list to copy CC data.



Just show the cc parameter in the region automation in any editor including the tracks view hold down the option key while changing to a different cc.


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## Begfred (Sep 28, 2018)

samphony said:


> Just show the cc parameter in the region automation in any editor including the tracks view hold down the option key while changing to a different cc.


Yes thanks. But I mean copying CC1 From a region on a track to a region on another track


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## Matt Riley (Sep 28, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> THIS is the biggest feature as far as I'm concerned—_if_ it's done well.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff


I tested it out today and I'm impressed.


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## A.G (Sep 28, 2018)

> CC Articulation sending is bad. The Controller assignment set in the Art Sets Editor is sent after the actual Note event.
> That means the Vienna factory Matrice Cells will not switch properly, as well as many other instruments which need CC art mapping.





Alex Fraser said:


> Is that a new thing in 10.4.2 or has it always been the case?


As far as I remember it has always been the case. To be honest Apple was forced by users to implement an Articulation switching system. What we see now is a simple table UI Editor which comes with a poor "Art ID switching" concept.

The CC latency problem. I guess that Apple developers use similar Java Script programming for the MIDI FX plugins and for the Articulation Sets 10.4 switching system. For example, all Controllers born in the JS code (in the Scripter) are sent after the real Note event - you cannot control that via the JS code (as far as I know).
Some third party (Art ID developers) compensate the CC sending Logic technical limitation by adding a Note delay in the "Send MIDI event" instruction in the Scripter (Vienna Instruments for example) which delays the real music events - I outline more info HERE.

BTW. My post is based on personal technical researches. Any Logic user can try or check out these researches.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 28, 2018)

A.G said:


> As far as I remember it has always been the case. To be honest Apple was forced by users to implement an Articulation switching system. What we see now is a simple table UI Editor which comes with a poor "Art ID switching" concept.



No argument but I am happy to see they are making efforts to improve things. Several bugs I reported in the articulation were fixed and I agree their outswitch switching is generally not good enough for all the but simplest scenario but at least they are showing willingness to listen to us and improve it.



> The CC latency problem. I guess that Apple developers use similar Java Script programming for the MIDI FX plugins and for the Articulation Sets 10.4 switching system. For example, all Controllers born in the JS code (in the Scripter) are sent after the real Note event - you cannot control that via the JS code (as far as I know).



Not correct. You can have scripter absolutely determine the order.

I do not think at all they are using JavaScript for other midifx but anything is possible but why would they.

There are problems specifically with kontakt and cc events not always getting there before the notes they are switching. This problem is inside kontakt, not LPX. Most likely it has to do with kontakt processing cc events on a different thread. The problem is particularly prevalent when you have different articulations on a chord. Not sure about k6


> Some third party (Art ID developers) compensate the CC sending Logic technical limitation by adding a Note delay in the "Send MIDI event" instruction in the Scripter (Vienna Instruments for example) which delays the real music events - I outline more info HERE.
> 
> BTW. My post is based on personal technical researches. Any Logic user can try or check out these researches.



I don’t know of anyone that is doing that and it’s not necessary but see above about kontakt it may be a solution in some cases to preroll the cv switch a little early in scripter when possible. It’s not always possible.


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## A.G (Sep 28, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> No argument but I am happy to see they are making efforts to improve things.



I agree, and I give my admirations to the developers. However they must totally recore that poor Editor and Art switching concept.


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## jonnybutter (Sep 28, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> There are problems specifically with kontakt and cc events not always getting there before the notes they are switching. This problem is inside kontakt, not LPX.



Ugh, this is so irritating. I'm at least glad to know it's not LPX.


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## anp27 (Sep 28, 2018)

kmaster said:


> I think what he (she?) meant is 90 degrees, as in instantaneous automation changes.



I've found out that the way to make the feature work as intended is by holding down Option and dragging left or right to get the 90 degree automation line.



kmaster said:


> I thought this meant that Logic doesn’t become slower and slower the more you switch screensets? Like, not the actual switching speed, but the speed of utility afterward...
> Maybe I completely misinterpreted though.



Maybe... but I was merely assuming because before this update, every time you switch between them your Desktop background flashes before switching, instead of direct switching between the screen sets. Now it doesn't do that anymore.


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## ptram (Sep 29, 2018)

A.G said:


> CC Articulation sending is bad. The Controller assignment set in the Art Sets Editor is sent after the actual Note event.


Here, selecting articulations in Kontakt (I’ve tried some Spitfire libraries) and VSL's VIPRO works fine, as has since the earlier version. It works better, now, without continual resetting to the first art ID.

Paolo


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## jonathanwright (Sep 29, 2018)

Update on the 90 degree automation, it appears it only works if 'snap automation' is _inactive_. Which seems an odd way of doing it.

So happy about the transform presets though, and articulation switching (with Spitfire libraries so far) seems to be much improved.


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 29, 2018)

A.G said:


> What we see now is a simple table UI Editor which comes with a poor "Art ID switching" concept.


Sure, the table editor is awful, but the articulation ID concept isn't poor by any stretch. YMMV etc.


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## Vik (Sep 29, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> the table editor is awful


Have you sent feedback to Apple about how you think it should be improved?


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 29, 2018)

Vik said:


> Have you sent feedback to Apple about how you think it should be improved?


No, I haven't, and I should and will. Thank-you.
The Logic devs seem to be listening, based on this recent update.


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## samphony (Sep 29, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> No, I haven't, and I should and will. Thank-you.
> The Logic devs seem to be listening, based on this recent update.


They are watching…

YOU

;o)


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 29, 2018)

samphony said:


> They are watching…
> 
> YOU
> 
> ;o)


*hides copy of Cubase*


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## Simon Ravn (Sep 29, 2018)

I like the recent Logic updates! Especially the snappier GUI etc.

However, what I DON'T like and what isn't fixed is the tempo list behaviour. When you add a tempo event - since 10.3 I believe - it sends you straight into the POSITION field instead of the tempo field. Who the hell adds a tempo event because you want to start by entering manually in numbers on which bar, beat and what tick to put it?! I really don't understand why (if) they deliberately changed this behaviour.


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## resound (Sep 29, 2018)

I'm guessing this might be a new "feature", but in the past when I would switch between tracks with my piano roll and it's automation lane open, the automation lane would always show the same CC. But now it seems to always remember the last selected CC when you click on a track, and it defaults to volume. So if I want to make edits to modulation data to a number of tracks, I have to change the focus in the automation lane to modulation every time I select a new region. Then if I want to edit expression data, I have to switch to expression again on each track rather than just once. 

I very much prefer the old behavior. I see in the updates it says "There is now an option to switch the first automation lane in a track to show the last clicked control." - I've looked all over and I don't see that setting in the preferences. Anyone know where it is?


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 29, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Sure, the table editor is awful, but the articulation ID concept isn't poor by any stretch. YMMV etc.



I actually think the current articulation set feature is half baked also. Functional yes, but there is a lot of room for improvement. It was not thought through that well. With the ability to send up to 3 switches for each id, it helps get closer, but there are still problems and shortcomings. 

In some cases, three output switches will not be enough, but that does make it somewhat more useful.

The editor is really bad honestly and I doubt they will improve it, not a priority. 

The articulation ID concept is definitely great...has been around a long time. They are moving in a good direction, hopefully they will continue moving in a positive direction towards something even better.


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## Vik (Sep 29, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> The editor is really bad honestly and I doubt they will improve it, not a priority.


In all fairness, they just released a version where articulation functions were mentioned many times - for instance here:

Logic Pro now shows a warning if an existing name is chosen when using Save As with an Articulation Set.
When the preference for MIDI Remote is set to Per Channel Strip, the Articulations switch in the Toolbar now updates its status depending on whether MIDI Remote is active for articulations on the current track.
Muted notes no longer unexpectedly send their articulations to key switches.
Notes without Articulation IDs are no longer treated as having Articulation ID 1.
Up to three output switch events can now be assigned per articulation.
The TAB key now moves the focus from cell to cell in the Articulation Editor.
Pressing Enter no longer sometimes causes the Articulation Set window to unexpectedly lose focus.
It is now possible to set a default articulation in the Score or Piano Roll in cases where all currently selected regions belong to the same track.

and...
• Key commands now work when the Articulation Editor is open.When multiple regions with different articulation sets are selected, it is no longer possible to inadvertently apply an articulation from a different region to a note.
• Articulation names for notes are now visible in MIDI editors.
• The Articulation selector in the Step Editor Inspector now correctly lists the available articulations for the track.
• CC events recorded to a track with an Articulation set loaded no longer have an articulation ID unexpectedly attached.
• Articulation Sets assigned to tracks are now included when importing the tracks into a different project.
• Changing patches no longer causes articulation buttons on the Touch Bar to stop responding.
• There is now a key command to open the Articulation Editor for the currently selected track, if there is an articulation set available for it.

Not top priority, of course - but there has never been more focus on articulations in Logic than it has been in the last few releases.


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## A.G (Sep 29, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> 3rd party solutions solve this issue by "cloning" CC events, which works, but also uses more CPU and creates more midi traffic then is really ideal or necessary.



I agree about some 3rd party solutions cloning systems which offer lots of complicated cloning plugins (they consume a lot of CPU and MIDI bandwidth resources indeed). I do not agree that AG belongs to your "3rd Party" meaning?
We developed an unique CC multiplication which clones the CC of ONLY the active Note voices (Channels) - hope you watched our latest Video demonstration.

This is an ultimate development which must be an example for the Apple devs.


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## babylonwaves (Sep 29, 2018)

A.G said:


> This is an ultimate development which must be an example for the Apple devs.


i hope not. i prefer Apple to develop non cryptical and not overly complicated software. and, again, thanks for your ongoing advertisement.


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## A.G (Sep 29, 2018)

babylonwaves said:


> i hope not.



At this moment we do not see any Apple efficient CC multiplication. Am I correct?


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## babylonwaves (Sep 29, 2018)

A.G said:


> At this moment we do not see any Apple efficient CC multiplication. Am I correct?


i'm not sure what you mean with "multiplication"


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## A.G (Sep 29, 2018)

babylonwaves said:


> i'm not sure what you mean with "multiplication"


CC cloning if this is the correct terminology. I.e you draw (or record) CC1 dynamics for example on a single track and the CC1 is sent only to the switching MIDI Channels (not to all 16 Channels which boost the CPU). It is efficient for channel switching instruments such as: LASS, EW Play, OT Berlin etc.
The smart CC cloning listens to the active Note voices and sends the CC *ONLY* to that channel during the polyphonic Voice Note ON/OFF duration.

Watch this example video.
This is the best system if you realize that?


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## babylonwaves (Sep 29, 2018)

A.G said:


> CC cloning if this is the correct terminology. I.e you draw (or record) CC1 dynamics for example on a single track and the CC1 is sent only to the switching MIDI Channels (not to all 16 Channels which boosts the CPU).
> The smart CC cloning listens to the active Note voices and sends the CC to that channel until the Voice Note OFF.


i guess we're talking about an instrument which is controlled by an articulations set. in which way is cloning needed at all? the vast majority of (kontakt) instruments can be controlled with a single channel. EW play can as well as long as you choose to use the KS instruments. so, what's left?

ps. why don't you post a reply instead of editing you post? (yes i'm doing this right now myself just to make a point)


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 29, 2018)

Let's say you're using East West and using channelizing, to put each articulation listening to a different midi channel in the PLAY software. This is common situation with PLAY. So with Articulation Set you can have different articulation id's channelized, so that they are directed to the right sound. But if you have aftertouch, pitchbend or CC messages that are on the single source track, such as say CC11... they are not also channelized to get to any channels which have sustaining notes happening. I wrote a Scripter script and shared it already a few months back that basically handles this more elegantly, it sounds like AG is also handling it the same way.... Artzid, as far as I know provides a CC cloning script which can clone all messages from one channel to any other desired channels, which works, but does introduce more midi traffic then is necessary and in some cases can result in cpu spikes because of it.

LPX articulation set needs to make sure that the source track gets all of those CC messages and channelizes them also, appropriately so that any playing notes get decorated with whatever CC, PB and CP events that are in the source track and meant for them.

Right now it does not do anything like that, if you put articulation id's in CC, PB and CP events, then they will be channelized too, but its very difficult to get all of that programmed and ends up causing a lot of problems generally, with chasing problems, etc.


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## A.G (Sep 29, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I wrote a Scripter script and shared it already a few months back that basically handles this more elegantly, it sounds like AG is also handling it the same way


Good explanation Dewdman42 .


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## samphony (Sep 29, 2018)

I really like these


There are now key commands "Store Track Header Configuration as User Default," "Apply Track Header User Default" and "Revert to Track Header Factory Default."

There is now a key command to set the Marquee selection to the currently selected regions or events.


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## procreative (Sep 30, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I wrote a Scripter script and shared it already a few months back that basically handles this more elegantly



Hey any chance you could reference the link to that script? I have the ArtzID one and it would be handy to compare? I tried searching for it but no luck!


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 30, 2018)

I will dig it up when I get back to my computer. It’s on the logic forum. It’s actually encrypted JavaScript at this point as I recall but I might release it unencrypted eventually I just want to clean up the code a bit, it’s quite a bit more complicated code then artzid and unless you have a programming background you probably won’t get much out of looking at it. There are a couple things I want to improve in it also but I have since moved on to making a more general purpose thing that includes both channelizing and switching.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 30, 2018)

Try this for now: https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=136801&hilit=Channelize

I have made some improvements to the script since then but it’s half baked and not ready to release. I haven’t looked at it in some months but I will try to see if I can get something finalized. The final version handles pitch bend and after touch in addition to cc and I can’t remeber what else.


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## Vik (Sep 30, 2018)

samphony said:


> I really like these
> 
> 
> There are now key commands "Store Track Header Configuration as User Default," "Apply Track Header User Default" and "Revert to Track Header Factory Default."


Sure, that's a good change. With some luck, we'll see more of these - meaning that we wouldn't have to deal with Logic's Project Settings and Preferences that much.


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## Vik (Oct 3, 2018)




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## Callum Hoskin (Oct 4, 2018)

Anyone else had that weird glitch where it shows 5 solo buttons???


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## ReelToLogic (Oct 6, 2018)

I understand that with this update you can now move the Logic sound library to an external drive. I'd appreciate any help with the following two questions:

1) Is there a way to tell how much disk space will be freed up if making this move?

2) If I run into any performance/streaming issues after moving to an external drive, is there a simple way to move it back?

Thanks.


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## KV626 (Oct 7, 2018)

ReelToLogic said:


> I understand that with this update you can now move the Logic sound library to an external drive. I'd appreciate any help with the following two questions:
> 
> 1) Is there a way to tell how much disk space will be freed up if making this move?
> 
> ...



1) Yes, the "Relocate Sound Library" window tells you how much disk space is used by your sound library. In my case that's roughly 67 GB taken off my startup disk...

2) Yes, just select the new location and Logic will move it back to the original place, or any drive that's selected.

FWIW, Logic simply creates a new Library>Application Support folder hierarchy on the new drive (which is why you can't choose a subfolder, only a physical drive as the new location I suppose) and adds both a Logic alias and GarageBand alias in /Library/Application Support.


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## JEPA (Oct 7, 2018)

i am in a middle of a production, should i update or wait? Normally i wait to finish the production and then i update... is it High Sierra compatible or Mojave?


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## Saxer (Oct 7, 2018)

Just moved the library today to an external SSD on High Sierra. No problem here.


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## Heinigoldstein (Oct 15, 2018)

This update really gets me into serious trouble. I did some tests and it seemed to work fine . But today I started a new project and after a few hours Logic is constantly crashing when I stop (midi)record. I deleted prefs and all the other usual thinks, no change. Anybody experienced this too or has any idea ? The deadline for this project is not that far away.

Thanks !


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## Vik (Oct 15, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> This update really gets me into serious trouble. I did some tests and it seemed to work fine . But today I started a new project and after a few hours Logic is constantly crashing when I stop (midi)record. I deleted prefs and all the other usual thinks, no change. Anybody experienced this too or has any idea ? The deadline for this project is not that far away.


Do you use a controller surface? In some cases, it helps to delete the (Logic) CS-preferences too.


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## Heinigoldstein (Oct 16, 2018)

Vik said:


> Do you use a controller surface? In some cases, it helps to delete the (Logic) CS-preferences too.



Thanks, no changes so far, but another bug. Sometimes I'm not able to send articualtion switches on a certain track. A few minutes later it's fine again. Same with cc messages.

I'm really sick of these Logic updates. They always implant new fancy things, but I would prefer they would focus on reliability and performance. I still loose screen sets, I can't see any improvents concerning graphic response, it actually seems even worse to me, I have a stumbling click here and there. I gladly would skip all the new plug ins and graphics if they would fix that !!!!


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## Ashermusic (Oct 17, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Thanks, no changes so far, but another bug. Sometimes I'm not able to send articualtion switches on a certain track. A few minutes later it's fine again. Same with cc messages.
> 
> I'm really sick of these Logic updates. They always implant new fancy things, but I would prefer they would focus on reliability and performance. I still loose screen sets, I can't see any improvents concerning graphic response, it actually seems even worse to me, I have a stumbling click here and there. I gladly would skip all the new plug ins and graphics if they would fix that !!!!



I don't know what to say except that I work in Logic daily and I don't lose screensets; Peter's ArtZ ID works flawlessly changing articulations as does his CC Cloner.


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## Heinigoldstein (Oct 17, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> I don't know what to say except that I work in Logic daily and I don't lose screensets; Peter's ArtZ ID works flawlessly changing articulations as does his CC Cloner.


I'm jealous 

I use Logic since it was called C-Lab Creator and was running on Atari (must have been short after World War II) and in all this years, I did not have that much problems like I do have with Logic 10. 
I changed computers, OS, audio..........Yes, we are much more demanding meanwhile and of course it has to grow, but it shouldn't become worse in essential things and stay solid. And I know I'm not the only one complaining.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 17, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> I'm jealous
> 
> I use Logic since it was called C-Lab Creator and was running on Atari (must have been short after World War II) and in all this years, I did not have that much problems like I do have with Logic 10.
> I changed computers, OS, audio..........Yes, we are much more demanding meanwhile and of course it has to grow, but it shouldn't become worse in essential things and stay solid. And I know I'm not the only one complaining.



Atari Notator for me.

I hear you and I am not saying that your issues are not real, just not seeing those specific ones here.


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## resound (Oct 17, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Thanks, no changes so far, but another bug. Sometimes I'm not able to send articualtion switches on a certain track. A few minutes later it's fine again. Same with cc messages.


I've encountered this bug as well. I've found that if I click on a note in the piano roll that I previously recorded with a different articulation ID, then usually the articulation switching works again.


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## resound (Oct 17, 2018)

Another annoying bug (or "feature"?) is that the automation lane in the piano roll now remembers the last edited controller on each track instead of displaying the same controller as you switch tracks. It is very inconvenient when you are trying to edit modulation data, for example, on a bunch of different tracks. You have to change the automation lane to display modulation each time you select a new track if you were previously editing a different controller.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 17, 2018)

resound said:


> I've encountered this bug as well. I've found that if I click on a note in the piano roll that I previously recorded with a different articulation ID, then usually the articulation switching works again.



At the risk of sounding like a shill, again, if you use ArtZ ID you won't have that problem.


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## resound (Oct 17, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> At the risk of sounding like a shill, again, if you use ArtZ ID you won't have that problem.


That is with ARTzID


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## PeterN (Oct 17, 2018)

I have a composition with about 50 instruments. On one track is the Logic Pro X piccolo (due to its range, I use it on this project) and thats on an external device now, thanks to the great possibility to have the Logics own sound library on external disk. Now what happens sometimes is the piccolo is not there - no sound - and I need to ”download new instruments/sounds”. It gives this suggestion sometimes when I open the project. After the download and installation its there again. Takes about 45 seconds. Whatever this is its not a huge deal, but smells like a bug of some kind.

Edit: On a second thought I think I get it. Sometimes it will find it (piccolo) on the external drive (when opening the project) sometimes it looks for the internal and cant find it. Then suggests the download of sounds.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 17, 2018)

resound said:


> That is with ARTzID



Hmmm, not seeing that here.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 17, 2018)

resound said:


> I've encountered this bug as well. I've found that if I click on a note in the piano roll that I previously recorded with a different articulation ID, then usually the articulation switching works again.



I think most likely this is expected behavior. Logic is designed to not send articulation key switches redundantly. So if I certain keyswitch was sent...it does not send it again, until a different keyswitch is sent. There could be bugs still though, but in order to understand them we need to have absolutely repeatable steps to repeat the error situation on demand and report the bug to Apple. So if you think its a bug, please try to replicate it exactly and come up with a pattern that will replicate the problem every time with exact steps. Then we can analyze it and decide if its actually a bug or not. It very well be, or it could be pilot error in assuming that a keyswitch will be sent every time when LPX is designed to reduce keyswitch traffic as much as it can.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 17, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> Hmmm, not seeing that here.



I would suggest its probably pilot error regardless of whether its Artzid or the articulation set switch sender. Artzid is also designed by default to avoid sending redundant switches. Generally that is desirable. However the user is using it, they might not see key switches when they think they should when testing and interacting. As above, please give us exactly repeatable steps to replicate the situation then we can say whether its bug or pilot error.


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## resound (Oct 17, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I would suggest its probably pilot error regardless of whether its Artzid or the articulation set switch sender. Artzid is also designed by default to avoid sending redundant switches. Generally that is desirable. However the user is using it, they might not see key switches when they think they should when testing and interacting. As above, please give us exactly repeatable steps to replicate the situation then we can say whether its bug or pilot error.


It's not "pilot error". I understand how ARTzID and articulation switching works. I use TouchOSC to send program change messages for articulation switching with ARTzID. I have experienced a bug where Logic (when stopped) randomly stops switching articulations when I send program change messages (I know Logic is receiving the messages because they display in the midi monitor). What happens is the Standby display in the Smart Controls will flash to the articulation I am trying to switch to, but then immediately switch back to whatever the previously recorded articulation was. So it appears that Logic is receiving the program change message, but immediately reverting back to the previous articulation for some reason. This is absolutely new behavior in 10.4.2.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 17, 2018)

Please give us the exact steps to replicate it and I will try to see if it happens. I do not believe you that it’s random even though it may seem like it right now.


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## resound (Oct 17, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Please give us the exact steps to replicate it and I will try to see if it happens. I do not believe you that it’s random even though it may seem like it right now.


Here are the steps:

1. Load up a key switching instrument, for example CSS Violin I, with ARTzID script.
2. Record some midi data.
3. Stop playback.
4. Switch to a different articulation (in my case via iPad with TouchOSC sending program change messages).
5. Verify that Logic has switched to the correct articulation by checking the Standby display in Smart Controls, and by playing the keyboard to audition the sound.
6. Repeat steps 2-5 until Logic no longer switches to the articulation, instead remaining on the previously recorded articulation.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 17, 2018)

how is logic switching to the different articulation step#4? Do you have something configured in the articulation set that receives program changes and switches the articulation you see in the header of the instrument plugin window? Please describe the steps to set that up or the exact configuration.


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## A.G (Oct 17, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> At the risk of sounding like a shill, again, if you use ArtZ ID you won't have that problem.


It is well known that you are a shill, but this is another story...

I agree that Apple have to fix a few technical details about the problem which is discussed here (I highly appreciate the Apple Logic team developments by the way).

If I understand correctly the issue is caused by so called "data optimization" programming. Apple Art IDs switching idea is quite different from the standard Program Change switching.
• The Program or Text Control points switching is "Monophonic". You record or draw a Program event and all other events after that are switched to that patch (CPU & MIDI Bandwidth saving).
• ArtID is a "Polyphonic" switching method. In theory it takes much CPU & MIDI Bandwidth. For that reason Apple have implemented "last ID" optimization which is simple but not well done.
Example: If the last Note KS is "Sustain = C0" and you play another note without new ArtID then Apple Art Set does not send another KS for the second or all Notes till the next ArtID change (optimization method). So far so good.

I did not have lots of time to test Logic 10.4.2 Art Sets, so I'll improvise on the fly...

• The "Last ID" optimization is a standard idea however some MIDI events such as Note and Controllers for example have a few Data bytes. If you try to add a CC99 value "X" in front of KS or CC to be able to switch the VEP Multi Ports, then CC99 will be ignored after all following events. Apple programming does not detect Data Byte 2 (VEP Port 1, 2, 3, etc assignment), i.e Apple "Data Optimization" fillers Data Byte 2 which is essential for some Instruments Art Switching. In other words the "Optimization" detects CC99 as event number and filters all other CC99 regardless the CC99 Values.
I have not tried yet, but same rule may corrupt the KS Velocity (Data Byte 2) - there are some KS Velocity switching Instruments on the market..

• Arts Sets are locked to a constant "KS Latching". This is not good. There is no chance to control Instruments such as "Sample Modeling" which need dynamic KS Latch ON/OFF.

• I noted that Logic sends quite a lot Note OFF (or CC) events during Start/Stop which are related to the "Latch KS" engine or any chasing DAW rules - this can be optimized as far as possible.


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## resound (Oct 17, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> how is logic switching to the different articulation step#4? Do you have something configured in the articulation set that receives program changes and switches the articulation you see in the header of the instrument plugin window? Please describe the steps to set that up or the exact configuration.


As I mentioned, I am using ARTzID scripts which listens for the program change messages and handles the key switching.


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## Living Fossil (Oct 17, 2018)

resound said:


> Another annoying bug (or "feature"?) is that the automation lane in the piano roll now remembers the last edited controller on each track instead of displaying the same controller as you switch tracks. It is very inconvenient when you are trying to edit modulation data, for example, on a bunch of different tracks. You have to change the automation lane to display modulation each time you select a new track if you were previously editing a different controller.



You can assign this "feature" to a key command and turn it off (or on, if you need it).


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 17, 2018)

resound said:


> As I mentioned, I am using ARTzID scripts which listens for the program change messages and handles the key switching.



Right, so the way its supposed to work is that as you send some kind of input key switches, which are configurable in Artzid, and you haven't told us how that is configured, but anyway as those come in, presumably you have it configured that program change selects articulation id to encode to midi events as you record them. The notes get recorded to the region with that, but when you play back regions...the articulation in the notes is converted to outgoing key switches, totally separate from the ones you use when recording.

The header in the top of the instrument window should show you which key switch is currently active...which will be used to encode the next incoming midi events that you play live or record to a region, but anything that is already recorded on the region will play whatever got encoded to it when you recorded it.

It sounds to me like you're getting a little confused between the input switches that are used to encode notes as you record them, vs the the output switches which are translated from articulation id. This is understandable, its a bit complicated...but that is what i think is happening to you.

Unfortunately I do not have artzid v2 to test this out any more, but I would need more information from you anyway in order to replicate it exactly. If you give me the info I will try to replicate it with the articulation set. Perhaps someone with artzidv2 can replicate it for you also or help to understand what is happening for you that causes you to get into that situation. But more information is needed.


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## resound (Oct 17, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> You can assign this "feature" to a key command and turn it off (or on, if you need it).


Hmmm...I am looking through the key commands but I don't know what I am looking for. What is the command called?


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## resound (Oct 17, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Right, so the way its supposed to work is that as you send some kind of input key switches, which are configurable in Artzid, and you haven't told us how that is configured,


Yes I did. I am using program change messages to trigger articulation switches. Articulations get recorded with the note as articulation IDs.



Dewdman42 said:


> It sounds to me like you're getting a little confused between the input switches that are used to encode notes as you record them, vs the the output switches which are translated from articulation id. This is understandable, its a bit complicated...but that is what i think is happening to you.


I understand how ARTzID works. It's not "complicated" and I don't need you to explain it to me. It seems you are confused about what I am talking about, which is fine. Peter is looking into the issue for me.


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## Living Fossil (Oct 17, 2018)

resound said:


> Hmmm...I am looking through the key commands but I don't know what I am looking for. What is the command called?



I have Logic with German language settings, however if i try to translate, it should be something like:
"automatically select automation parameter in "Read" mode".

(i hope you can find it, maybe start with "automation parameter")


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 17, 2018)

resound said:


> Yes I did. I am using program change messages to trigger articulation switches. Articulations get recorded with the note as articulation IDs.
> 
> 
> I understand how ARTzID works. It's not "complicated" and I don't need you to explain it to me. It seems you are confused about what I am talking about, which is fine. Peter is looking into the issue for me.



alright man. Good luck. If you figure out the exact bug please report it to apple.


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## resound (Oct 17, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> I have Logic with German language settings, however if i try to translate, it should be something like:
> "automatically select automation parameter in "Read" mode".
> 
> (i hope you can find it, maybe start with "automation parameter")


Oh I see, yeah I tried that and it didn't change anything on my system.


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## galactic orange (Oct 17, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> I have Logic with German language settings, however if i try to translate, it should be something like:
> "automatically select automation parameter in "Read" mode".
> 
> (i hope you can find it, maybe start with "automation parameter")


I searched for "select automation" in the Key Command window and the first thing that came up under Global Commands is "Autoselect Automation Parameter in Read Mode" so it was pretty easy to find.



resound said:


> Oh I see, yeah I tried that and it didn't change anything on my system.


Is that the Key Command you were looking for?


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## resound (Oct 17, 2018)

galactic orange said:


> I searched for "select automation" in the Key Command window and the first thing that came up under Global Commands is "Autoselect Automation Parameter in Read Mode" so it was pretty easy to find.
> 
> 
> Is that the Key Command you were looking for?


Yeah I found the key command, but it didn't change the behavior I was talking about on my system.

To be clear, before updating to 10.4.2, when I have the piano roll open (linked) with the automation lane open in the piano roll, the controller (modulation, expression, etc.) displayed in the automation lane would stay the same as I selected different tracks in the main window. Now in 10.4.2, when I select different tracks in the main window, the piano roll automation lane displays the last edited controller for each track (Volume by default). "Autoselect Automation Parameter in Read Mode" has no effect on this, at least not on my system.


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## Living Fossil (Oct 17, 2018)

resound said:


> Oh I see, yeah I tried that and it didn't change anything on my system.



That's strange.
On my system it toggles between showing the actual parameter and don't.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 17, 2018)

A.G said:


> It is well known that you are a shill, but this is another story...



Actually it's well known to me that he's not a shill.


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## A.G (Oct 17, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Actually it's well known to me that he's not a shill.


You are a Moderator and you must filter the shills here. It is obvious that this topic is about Logic 10.4.2, not about any third party products OK?


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## resound (Oct 17, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> That's strange.
> On my system it toggles between showing the actual parameter and don't.


That is strange. Did you see my post above? Does that work for you?


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## Heinigoldstein (Oct 18, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> I have Logic with German language settings, however if i try to translate, it should be something like:
> "automatically select automation parameter in "Read" mode".
> 
> (i hope you can find it, maybe start with "automation parameter")


Could you tell me, how it's called in German ? Can't find it too, thanks.


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## Heinigoldstein (Oct 18, 2018)

resound said:


> It's not "pilot error". I understand how ARTzID and articulation switching works. I use TouchOSC to send program change messages for articulation switching with ARTzID. I have experienced a bug where Logic (when stopped) randomly stops switching articulations when I send program change messages (I know Logic is receiving the messages because they display in the midi monitor). What happens is the Standby display in the Smart Controls will flash to the articulation I am trying to switch to, but then immediately switch back to whatever the previously recorded articulation was. So it appears that Logic is receiving the program change message, but immediately reverting back to the previous articulation for some reason. This is absolutely new behavior in 10.4.2.


I even tried to skip TouchOSC and use a keyboard (I use notes for switching). It just doesn't work in 10.4.2. Although 10.4.1 wasn't reacting perfect either. Sometimes it was late and I had to press the button 2 or 3 times to get it. But I always though, that's a little TouchOSC problem.


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 18, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> I even tried to skip TouchOSC and use a keyboard (I use notes for switching). It just doesn't work in 10.4.2. Although 10.4.1 wasn't reacting perfect either. Sometimes it was late and I had to press the button 2 or 3 times to get it. But I always though, that's a little TouchOSC problem.



Hey HeiniG!

FWIW, everyone, the mechanism behind getting external MIDI messages to impart ID's to notes is pretty straight-forward: it occurs within the articulation set infrastructure. So if an external MIDI message is not changing the ID, requiring multiple hits on a TouchOSC button to get that change to "take", I'd say the finger points to how well Logic is intercepting those MIDI messages at the articulation set level. Any non-response in this regard would have nothing to do with Scripts/Scripter plugins. They're positioned after-the-fact.

I've received three test projects from ARTz•ID customers reporting that ID's don't reliably change in 10.4.2 in response to buttons or keyboard keys on their MIDI Remote device. In each case I have not been able to replicate the behavior. This leaves open the possibility that the behavior is system-specific, i.e., some people will experience it, some people won't. For all I know, this behavior might be exacerbated by the size of the project... For example, I'm sure you've all experienced when writing automation starts to get "stair-steppy" after a project starts to get large.

Meanwhile, I'm keeping a keen eye on the behavior of my system to see if I experience anything like it.


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## babylonwaves (Oct 18, 2018)

resound said:


> What happens is the Standby display in the Smart Controls will flash to the articulation I am trying to switch to, but then immediately switch back to whatever the previously recorded articulation was.


I've seen that too once or twice but I was never able to reproduce it. it happens with normal articulation sets and once you setup the instrument again or you load the song again, it's gone.


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## Living Fossil (Oct 18, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Could you tell me, how it's called in German ? Can't find it too, thanks.



„Automationsparameter im Modus „Read“ automatisch auswählen“


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## Living Fossil (Oct 18, 2018)

resound said:


> That is strange. Did you see my post above? Does that work for you?



Yes, i saw your post. As i wrote, i don't have this (wrong) behaviour in 10.4.2

To avoid any misunderstanding: I have assigned "Autoselect Automation Parameter in Read Mode" to a key command (it's ⌘Ä on my system).
When i press ⌘Ä it either enables the autoselection or it disables it. If you press it two times, it first changes the behaviour, then changes it back.
If you can't reproduce this, you probably have a buggy behaviour on your system.
(there were some Logic bugs that occured only on some systems...)


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 18, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> I've received three test projects from ARTz•ID customers reporting that ID's don't reliably change in 10.4.2 in response to buttons or keyboard keys on their MIDI Remote device. In each case I have not been able to replicate the behavior. This leaves open the possibility that the behavior is system-specific, i.e., some people will experience it, some people won't.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm keeping a keen eye on the behavior of my system to see if I experience anything like it.



Or users could have configurations or particular use patterns that bring their system to that confusing state. As of now it seems random but these kinds of problems are not usually random, once they are understood it will be shown that a particular configuration or particular use pattern brings things to that result. Which may or may not be an actual bug.

Are the users having this problem, for example, allowing any midi to go out over IAC? That would loop around and hit the articulation set again, for example. That’s just one example I quickly thought of, it might be something else.


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 18, 2018)

I never equated "system-specific" to random. I know the difference and I'm very good at troubleshooting this kind of thing. 

As for the possibility that an IAC bus is routing MIDI twice, that would be entirely random occurrence of one or more isolated composers choosing to process MIDI using IAC outside the scope of ARTz•ID's setup and use, and, in a way that doesn't prevent feedback loops (i.e., you'd have to know what you're doing, a/k/a "don't try this at home"). And in that case they'd likely have more problems than duplicated events hitting the articulation set.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I've got a pretty good handle on how this all works and what to look for.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 18, 2018)

Just throwing out suggestions...sheesh.. I certainly was not making ANY insinuation about what you or anyone else does or doesn't know.


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## AHM (Oct 18, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> Yes, i saw your post. As i wrote, i don't have this (wrong) behaviour in 10.4.2
> 
> To avoid any misunderstanding: I have assigned "Autoselect Automation Parameter in Read Mode" to a key command (it's ⌘Ä on my system).
> When i press ⌘Ä it either enables the autoselection or it disables it. If you press it two times, it first changes the behaviour, then changes it back.
> ...





Living Fossil said:


> Yes, i saw your post. As i wrote, i don't have this (wrong) behaviour in 10.4.2
> 
> To avoid any misunderstanding: I have assigned "Autoselect Automation Parameter in Read Mode" to a key command (it's ⌘Ä on my system).
> When i press ⌘Ä it either enables the autoselection or it disables it. If you press it two times, it first changes the behaviour, then changes it back.
> ...



Hi,
so may you check this gif? Either with Autoselect on or off, doesn't matter, it changes the automation lane. Even when i want to change the length of a note the automation in the main/arrange window changes to velocity i.e.


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## Living Fossil (Oct 18, 2018)

AHM said:


> Hi,
> so may you check this gif? Either with Autoselect on or off, doesn't matter, it changes the automation lane. Even when i want to change the length of a note the automation in the main/arrange window changes to velocity i.e.



Wow, you're right, when editing notes it changes the automation to velocity. 
However, in all other situations the behaviour of toggling "auto select" is correct.


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## resound (Oct 18, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Just throwing out suggestions...sheesh.. I certainly was not making ANY insinuation about what you or anyone else does or doesn't know.


You made a lot of insinuations about what I did or didn't know, just saying. I understand your point and I agree that it is probably not "random", and probably due to some setting or system specific. But it's not always possible to find repeatable steps to consistently recreate the problem when there are so many factors and things happening under the hood that are out of your control.


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## resound (Oct 18, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> Yes, i saw your post. As i wrote, i don't have this (wrong) behaviour in 10.4.2
> 
> To avoid any misunderstanding: I have assigned "Autoselect Automation Parameter in Read Mode" to a key command (it's ⌘Ä on my system).
> When i press ⌘Ä it either enables the autoselection or it disables it. If you press it two times, it first changes the behaviour, then changes it back.
> ...


So I just figured out what "Autoselect Automation Parameter in Read Mode" does, and it does work on my system. But the problem I was talking about has to do with the automation lane in the piano roll. This is what is happening on my system:


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 18, 2018)

resound said:


> So it appears that Logic is receiving the program change message, *but immediately reverting back to the previous articulation for some reason *. This is absolutely new behavior in 10.4.2.



Hey There Resound,

As I'm looking for clues, this piqued my interest (emoticon added for emphasis)...

By "previous articulation", do you mean the last articulation played by the track? Or, the first articulation in the entire articulation list? Here's where I'm going with this...

It's entirely possible that the articulation currently playing in your track is also the first one in the list (let's say "sustain", which is typical). So I'm curious to know if the articulation you're seeing it switch back to is consistently the first one in the list of articulation names -- as opposed to the last articulation being played back in the track.


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## resound (Oct 18, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> Hey There Resound,
> 
> As I'm looking for clues, this piqued my interest (emoticon added for emphasis)...
> 
> ...


No, it switches back to the last recorded articulation. So far I have only encountered it immediately after recording a passage (at least as far as I can remember) and it always seems to get stuck on whatever articulation I just recorded.


----------



## Peter Schwartz (Oct 18, 2018)

OK, thanks for that info. That might be a really good clue as to what might be happening...


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 18, 2018)

Kontakt has a wrench to click to view the innards of a patch. Seeing what's going on under the hood in Logic, however, requires more primitive (tho effective) tools:





The following describes the behavior of an articulation set and what kinds of MIDI events it outputs in response to external MIDI events ("MIDI Remote Events"). This post is an elaboration on what Dewdman mentioned about Logic not outputting redundant "Output" messages.

So... I just got done with another round of torturing an articulation set with extremely rapid articulation changes, and it unfailingly responded to each change. I'm viewing the output of the art.set using an external MIDI monitor, and everything looks normal. So on the surface I'm not seeing anything to suggest Logic isn't responding correctly to MIDI Remote Events. That's not to suggest it's not happening on some people's systems, but at least the MIDI seems to be correct under these specific conditions (one instrument channel undergoing a torture test).

Without going into the gory details right now, I'm seeing improvements in the way MIDI data is generated by articulation sets in 10.4.2, so that's a good thing.

But...

There is indeed a situation where an art.set will _seemingly_ not respond correctly to MIDI Remote events, with the result that you could push a button all day long and never actually get Logic to change ID's. And this would be totally normal.

Let's say you have an art.set configured as shown, with only two articulations. External MIDI notes C-2 and C#-2 on channel 16 are the MIDI Remote "Switches". When Logic receives those events it will embed notes with either ID 1 or ID 2 (respectively).

In response to notes on ID's 1 or 2, the Output section is programmed to send a CC#32 event with a value of either 1 or 2. With me so far?









So... Let's say you're using a 2nd keyboard for articulation selection. With this setup you can hit C-2 or C#-2 all day long and the art.set will respond as expected, encoding notes with ID's and sending out the relevant CC messages.

But now let's say you hit D-2, the next note up and isn't assigned as a "Switch". What would happen? The answer (and the correct one) is "nothing". Notes will continue to be encoded with the last ID you selected. The art.set will not output a redundant CC#32 message.

The next time Logic will send a CC#32 messages is when you change the ID to be different from the last articulation you selected. Otherwise, Logic is sticking to its story and it ain't a-gonna back down, partnah!

Now for a brief foray into ARTz•ID and those people having problems with articulation selection not working... On most Scripts there is a checkbox called "Data Reduction". Normally this is enabled, but by disabling it you will force the Script to output a new articulation-switching MIDI message with every note. I'd suggest disabling this feature for now and observe if you see any improvement in the behavior. If nothing else, disabling it will "prove" beyond a shadow of a doubt whether your MIDI Remote Events are causing a change of ID or not.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Oct 18, 2018)

Wouldn't it be amazing if Logic's Smart Control Window could always show your current instance of Kontakt?


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 19, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> Kontakt has a wrench to click to view the innards of a patch. Seeing what's going on under the hood in Logic, however, requires more primitive (tho effective) tools:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to do this, and for the timely reminder that I should put my key switches on channel 16..


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 19, 2018)

I don't know if this helps anyone debug this or not, but here is a little midi monitor script for Scripter that I made. There are lots of ways to monitor midi, but what makes this a little unique is that it can display articulation ID in the log, among other things. It will also display beatPos if LPX is playing, which can also be handy to verify that.

Basically put an instance of this script on the same channel, after the artzid scripts, Then open the script editor window to see the logging. You will be able to see with this which articulation ID is being encoded to events on the fly, as well as any switches being generated by ArtzId, if you put midimon after it on the channel strip.

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=139579






```
[ 11.0  ] Control Change   [#99]  val:0     port:-- ch:16 art:2    (Non-Reg. MSB)
[ 11.0  ] NoteOff          [D4]   vel:64    port:01 ch:16 art:2   
[ 11.0  ] Control Change   [#99]  val:1     port:-- ch:04 art:2    (Non-Reg. MSB)
[ 11.0  ] NoteOff          [D4]   vel:64    port:02 ch:04 art:2   
[ 11.0  ] Control Change   [#99]  val:0     port:-- ch:16  (Non-Reg. MSB)
[ 11.0  ] NoteOn           [C4]   vel:80    port:01 ch:16 
[ 11.0  ] Control Change   [#99]  val:1     port:-- ch:04  (Non-Reg. MSB)
[ 11.0  ] NoteOn           [C4]   vel:80    port:02 ch:04 
[ 11.480] Control Change   [#99]  val:0     port:-- ch:16  (Non-Reg. MSB)
[ 11.480] NoteOff          [C4]   vel:64    port:01 ch:16 
[ 11.480] Control Change   [#99]  val:1     port:-- ch:04  (Non-Reg. MSB)
[ 11.480] NoteOff          [C4]   vel:64    port:02 ch:04 
[ 11.480] Control Change   [#99]  val:0     port:-- ch:16 art:4    (Non-Reg. MSB)
[ 11.480] NoteOn           [B3]   vel:80    port:01 ch:16 art:4   
[ 11.480] Control Change   [#99]  val:1     port:-- ch:04 art:4    (Non-Reg. MSB)
```


_Note - this will not be helpful to debug the ArticulationSet output switching (without Artzid) because that mechanism clears out the articulation iD as it sends the switches, which is very frustrating.... Hope this helps you get to the bottom of it.

_


----------



## Heinigoldstein (Oct 19, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> Hey HeiniG!
> 
> FWIW, everyone, the mechanism behind getting external MIDI messages to impart ID's to notes is pretty straight-forward: it occurs within the articulation set infrastructure. So if an external MIDI message is not changing the ID, requiring multiple hits on a TouchOSC button to get that change to "take", I'd say the finger points to how well Logic is intercepting those MIDI messages at the articulation set level. Any non-response in this regard would have nothing to do with Scripts/Scripter plugins. They're positioned after-the-fact.
> 
> ...



Hi Peter,

I can confirm that it seems to be related to the project size. I worked a few hours on a small project today and didn't have one problem with articulation switching. 

I go back to the big ones on Monday, disable data reduction and cross fingers 

Thanks for taking care !


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 19, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I don't know if this helps anyone debug this or not, but here is a little midi monitor script for Scripter that I made...
> 
> Basically put an instance of this script on the same channel, *before or after the artzid scripts*, I don't think it matters as long as artzid leaves the articulationID intact on midi events.



Very cool! I'll check it out later today.

Regarding "before or after", definitely after.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 19, 2018)

well after if you want to see the output key switching. If you want to only see the articulation id encoding without seeing all the output switch noise, then put it before. (_EDIT, see below, only put AFTER ArtzID scripts_)

MidiMon has some other useful options:

log only during playback or always
filter which types of midi events you want logged
optionally display articulation ID
optionally display midi channel
optionally display beat position, which can be displayed either as a decimal number or as beats:ticks
Display raw midi bytes in the log
Define whether you want Roland C4 or Yamaha C3 standard for showing not pitch names
Allow midi to pass through or not (YES in this case)
Events Per Flush (set this to a lower value if for some reason you start getting the good ol' scripter error about not able to keep up with logging. This will generally keep up with logging at around 20-25, but set it a little lower if it can't keep up)
I want to add some options later to display CC99 multiport stuff in a sensible sort of way, but that is future version... open to suggestions for features.


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 19, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> well after if you want to see the output key switching.



Placing them before the ARTz•ID scripts will break the Smart Controls programming in ARTz•ID setups. "After" only, please.

To be more specific, the main ARTz•ID Script being used for an instrument must be in MIDI FX slot #1. If the setup is also using the Scripter version of the CC Cloner, that will appear by default in slot #2. Additional Scripts can be placed in-between slots #1 and #2, or after slot #2, but not before slot #1.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 19, 2018)

oh really? I guess that's because the smart control programming relies on it being the first plugin for identifying the specific controls eh? Good to know....


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 19, 2018)

Exactly.


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 19, 2018)

Something just occurred to me... 

If you're experiencing this problem with Articulation Sets not responding to MIDI Remote messages (this includes ARTz•ID V2 and BabylonWaves Art Conductor), try turning off MIDI Data Reduction in the Recording Prefs and see if that makes a difference. If you find articulation-selecting behavior returns to normal (or not), please post back and tell us about it.


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## wolf (Oct 19, 2018)

I have a question/observation about Art IDs (the built in feature. not ARTz ID or AG Toolkit but possibly affects them as well). I use it to switch VSL sounds on a multitimbral VEPro with each channel (or audio return) set up as an AUX channel (btw, I prefer this method because of offline bouncing -> handing audio tracks to the mixing engineer. If you found a better way, equally fast, circumventing the 256 tracks limit, please share it). I'm very happy that we can place an Art ID switcher on each AUX. But I found live articulation switching (Midi Remote) only works when the midi channels between AUX and Art ID editor/set match. iow, it doesn't work if I leave the midi channel unspecified. 

Once the Art IDs are recorded, playback works as expected. I suspect this has to do with a limitation of how AUX tracks handle midi data vs how an external midi instrument does it.

So I duplicated my VSL Art ID set for each midi channel - a bit clunky, but it works. 



Can you confirm this or am I doing something wrong?


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## wolf (Oct 20, 2018)

I did some more testing. Turns out it's only Program Changes (afaik currently) that are not forwarded when playing live on an AUX track and the midi channel in the Art ID editor down't match the AUX. key switches and midi CCs work. I'm guessing this is a known and popular fact about AUX tracks that I have been blissfully unaware of so far. time to rework my template...


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 20, 2018)

Thanks for reporting this. The aux track approach has some other limitations as well, for example the track delay parameter is disabled.


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## A.G (Oct 20, 2018)

wolf said:


> I have a question/observation about Art IDs (the built in feature. not ARTz ID or AG Toolkit but possibly affects them as well).
> Can you confirm this or am I doing something wrong?


Hi Wolf,
Auxes are a good alternative and they ignore the 256 Instruments limitation indeed.
You mention AG toolkit. It offers native "Save as" Logic Art Set for 10.4.2 and I have a solution about your problem. If you want to get my answer, please post your question in the AG 6.2 update topic here:
https://vi-control.net/community/th...ate-out-now-save-multiple-art-outs-etc.75901/


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 20, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Hi Peter,
> 
> I can confirm that it seems to be related to the project size. I worked a few hours on a small project today and didn't have one problem with articulation switching.
> 
> ...



Thank _you_ for posting your observations. 

When you get back to your big projects on Monday, I'd like to suggest that before you turn off Data Reduction in the Scripts, start out by turning off MIDI Data Reduction in *Logic's Prefs* (see my previous post with the big red arrow).


----------



## wolf (Oct 20, 2018)

Ivan, thank for your offer for advice. I posted my question to your thread - thanks for the quick update btw!

re 256 tracks - my terminology was unspecific. I meant the 256 AUX limit (as well as the 256 instruments and audio tracks limit). basically voicing my ongoing wish for unlimited number of AUX tracks (and or audio, instrument tracks, but that has become less crucial for me since VEPro). I wish upon a star...


----------



## samphony (Oct 21, 2018)

wolf said:


> re 256 tracks - my terminology was unspecific. I meant the 256 AUX limit (as well as the 256 instruments and audio tracks limit). basically voicing my ongoing wish for unlimited number of AUX tracks (and or audio, instrument tracks, but that has become less crucial for me since VEPro). I wish upon a star...



Someone once said to me that a developer doesn’t know what unlimited means. This way it’s probably better to voice for 9999 tracks (objects) etc


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## Heinigoldstein (Oct 21, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> „Automationsparameter im Modus „Read“ automatisch auswählen“


Thanks by the way !!


----------



## Vik (Oct 21, 2018)

samphony said:


> Someone once said to me that a developer doesn’t know what unlimited means. This way it’s probably better to voice for 9999 tracks (objects) etc


They'd probably prefer numbers like 2018 or 4096. How many tracks (etc) can Cubase have?


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## Heinigoldstein (Oct 21, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> Thank _you_ for posting your observations.
> 
> When you get back to your big projects on Monday, I'd like to suggest that before you turn off Data Reduction in the Scripts, start out by turning off MIDI Data Reduction in *Logic's Prefs* (see my previous post with the big red arrow).


Hey Peter,

unfortunately my last observation was wrong. I continued with the small project today, and...voila...articulation switching refuses to work. I disabled data reduction (prefs and script) no change.

But....it is most obvious, that it is related to recording. I can play along for hours (probably) and it works fine. But after I've recorded a couple of regions, it starts getting messy.
And since my crash issue with Logic 10.4.2 is related to recording too, I ask myselve if it both issue are some kind of retated !?!?


----------



## samphony (Oct 21, 2018)

Vik said:


> They'd probably prefer numbers like 2018 or 4096. How many tracks (etc) can Cubase have?



Here is one old ER 
https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=106226

Regarding cubase it might be 9999. 

The thing is even if logic would get an upgrade to 1024 or more of instrument/aux/audio tracks/channel strips it would need optimizations in regards to performance as well. Some of the larger projects created in logic seem to fall over quicker than smaller ones. But that is probably worth it’s own thread.


----------



## Peter Schwartz (Oct 21, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Hey Peter,
> 
> unfortunately my last observation was wrong. I continued with the small project today, and...voila...articulation switching refuses to work. I disabled data reduction (prefs and script) no change.
> 
> ...



This is all very strange... 

Here are two troubleshooting approaches you can take:

1) Go back to 10.4.1 and test things out. If everything works OK then it will help to confirm that the problem is specific to 10.4.2.

2) Create a new user account (with admin access of course) and test 10.4.2 again. If it behaves OK then it can point to a system problem with your main user account. 

BTW, are you using any control surfaces, such as a Euphonix Artist series or anything similar?

Best,

Peter


----------



## Dewdman42 (Oct 21, 2018)

samphony said:


> Here is one old ER
> https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=106226
> 
> Regarding cubase it might be 9999.
> ...



Logic can handle a lot of tracks and its just as efficient at using the CPU as anything else. But.. In actual practice the normal modes of operation are limited and give everyone grief. It has several limiting factors that could be easily rectified to enable larger track counts:


Needs more than 256 instrument channels and more than 256 aux channels. 1024? Sure. Each one of those can be a multi, so do the math. But wait...multi's are a pain...so I dunno, 4096 instrument channels and AUX's? Sure why not. 
Handle AU3 multiport modes for using VEP with multi midi ports.
Increase the size of the buffer used to process midi events on each instrument channel, or change the architecture so that multis are handled as separate instrument channels somehow.
With the VEP multi port macro it is definitely possible to handle thousands of tracks even right now...with hundreds playing at the same time. LPX can handle it. But what LPX can't handle is pushing too many midi events simultaneously through any one given instrument channel. So it is not possible, for example to use a single VEP instance for hundreds of tracks playing at the same time. LPX chokes on the midi funneling through a single instrument channel to get there. But you can certainly have templates with thousands of tracks that you can audition any one off them at any time, and playback hundreds at the same time, but only if you use VEP to host the thousands of instrument channels, since LPX can only really support 255 instrument channels and 256 aux channels max..some of which you need for other purposes, so let's just say right now LPX maxes out at 500ish instruments it can playback at the same time and have in a template...without using VEP and multiport to beef it up.

I have an improved version of VEP multi port templates available for anyone interested to try: https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=137085


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## wolf (Oct 22, 2018)

All good points. I'll send a request for 4096 channels each - maybe we'll get to 512 then. After all the number of Busses also increased not too long ago. 
And like most, I don't need hundreds of tracks playing simultaneously. It's all about the big template and having the sounds ready to play instantly.

D42: thanks for creating and the link to the updated multi port template.


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## resound (Oct 22, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> Something just occurred to me...
> 
> If you're experiencing this problem with Articulation Sets not responding to MIDI Remote messages (this includes ARTz•ID V2 and BabylonWaves Art Conductor), try turning off MIDI Data Reduction in the Recording Prefs and see if that makes a difference. If you find articulation-selecting behavior returns to normal (or not), please post back and tell us about it.


I tried turning off MIDI Data Reduction as you suggested but that didn't help. It just happened again on a small project with 13 tracks.


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks to you and HeiniG. for your feedback. It was a shot in the dark...


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 22, 2018)

@resound 

Troubleshooting...

1) delete that 13th track. Does the behavior continue with 12 tracks?
2) if not, continue to delete tracks and see if the behavior reverts to normal at some point.

If you want, send me a copy of this new project and let me see if I get the same behavior on my system.


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## Heinigoldstein (Oct 23, 2018)

resound said:


> I tried turning off MIDI Data Reduction as you suggested but that didn't help. It just happened again on a small project with 13 tracks.


It is mysterious.

I have a big project, which didn´t react to switching (but just on some tracks) for days. But last time I worked on it, I had no problems for several hours.
Than I opened a small project (4 tracks ) and after a while the issue appeared again.

Today I opened the small project again and worked for more than two hours without any problem.

I still try to find a pattern, when the issue begins, but I really don´t get it. The only thing that seems to be sure, is that it is related to recording. As long as I just play around without recording it seems to work fine. But when, what and how much I have to record to force it to appear.......I don´t no !?!?!


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## resound (Oct 23, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> It is mysterious.
> 
> I have a big project, which didn´t react to switching (but just on some tracks) for days. But last time I worked on it, I had no problems for several hours.
> Than I opened a small project (4 tracks ) and after a while the issue appeared again.
> ...


It actually appears to have something to do with notes being selected in one of the editors while trying to switch articulations. Thanks to @Peter Schwartz for helping figure this out! Try this out and see if it helps:

The following behavior occurs irrespective of any 3rd party articulation-switching systems. It appears to be a Logic bug introduced in 10.4.2 and will affect Logic-only articulation set-based switching as well as any 3rd party systems that utilize articulation sets in any fashion.

1) Record a MIDI region with one note.

2) Open any editor (piano roll, score, or event list)

3) Select that note and then try switching articulations... *Logic will not respond to the change of articulation from your MIDI Remote device.*
The best place to monitor this behavior is in a Smart Control programmed to display "Articulation" (non-automatable) so that it displays the articulation names contained in the articulation set. 

Once you do make this assignment you may see either of the following behaviors reflected in the Smart Control:

• The Smart Control doesn't respond, and in addition, you won't be able to switch articulations live from your MIDI remote. Articulation assignment will be whatever the last-selected articulation was.
(This behavior can be remedied by resetting the _scaling_ function for the assigned Smart Control. Uncheck "stepped" and click Reset).

=OR=

• The Smart Control display will switch to a different ID, but then snaps back to the last-selected ID almost immediately.

4) De-select the note and try switching articulations again... Normal operation.

Additionally, you will find that selecting notes on a track will change the live articulation selection -- as if you pressed a button or key on your MIDI Remote.

INTERIM SOLUTION: Ensure that no notes are selected when performing live articulation on that track.


----------



## Heinigoldstein (Oct 23, 2018)

resound said:


> It actually appears to have something to do with notes being selected in one of the editors while trying to switch articulations. Thanks to @Peter Schwartz for helping figure this out! Try this out and see if it helps:
> 
> The following behavior occurs irrespective of any 3rd party articulation-switching systems. It appears to be a Logic bug introduced in 10.4.2 and will affect Logic-only articulation set-based switching as well as any 3rd party systems that utilize articulation sets in any fashion.
> 
> ...


Great observation !!! That would explain all that behavior.......not on every track, it comes and goes and all others. Can't try now, but will do first tomorrow morning....thanks a lot for sharing.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Oct 23, 2018)

great job tracking it down!!!


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## Billy Palmer (Oct 23, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> The Sound Library can be relocated to an external storage device.
> FINALLY!!


Life changing


----------



## wolf (Oct 24, 2018)

I tried what Resound describes (great sleuthing!) and see the same behavior. I figured the "Permanent (Retrigger)" switch mode should override this behavior, but it doesn't. So it looks like a bug to me also - although it could be intended behavior (if so, I'd vote against this intention).
Another curious thing I noticed - still experimenting with live remote switching using program changes: It works when the midi channel in Output is set to 1 higher than the program change number. even though the midi channel should have nothing to do with this. also looks like a bug to me.
Furthermore, working in the Art ID set editor reliably spikes my CPU drastically, which is strange for simple menu selections and data entry.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Oct 24, 2018)

My view on the current articulation set feature set is that it has some very complicated implicit behavior possible through the input switches and the little control at the top of plugin windows. I think that little control was put there mainly for some behavior related to logic’s own instruments especially the new strings and brass instruments they introduced.

Logic has to do some tricky stuff under the covers to respond to that little control in the plugin window and have it reflect it back to the midi signal chain before recording midi to regions. I think something related to that is at play here.

Then you have a lot of modes for the articulation set input switches, some latching, some not... I still don’t understand that section entirely and have no idea if it all works correctly or even how all of those modes of input switching are supposed to work.

Then you have the output switches which the articulation set editor is not really sufficient to correctly specify different aspects in terms of whether to channelize midi events or not in addition to sending switches. Some of the controls are overloaded for slightly different results depending on other factors. It’s very poor ui design. I personally have not found that section to be working correctly in a few tests i did. And i rather suspect the input switch section is also not working entirely correctly, either that or the 9 different modes of input switching are so confusing as to render what seems like non sensical results. And then that little control on the plugin window i think is also wreaking some havoc. And I think some of this is related to the way Apple tried to design the articulation switching in their new string and brass instruments along with a very poor editor that is trying to cram many different modes of operation into one simple list editor.


----------



## Peter Schwartz (Oct 24, 2018)

wolf said:


> Another curious thing I noticed - still experimenting with live remote switching using program changes: It works when the midi channel in Output is set to 1 higher than the program change number. even though the midi channel should have nothing to do with this. also looks like a bug to me.



This is not a bug. The lowest value for a Program Change (PC) message is 0, while the lowest MIDI channel is 1. Thus:
*
PC*__*MIDI ch.*
0_____1
1_____2
_...etc..._
15___16


----------



## wolf (Oct 24, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> This is not a bug. ...



This is not the curious thing I wanted to report; just a side note for those who'd try to verify what I did. I am aware of the PC numbering and understand why it's +1. the bug is that when I enter these numbers in the Midi Channel column, PC life switching works - and only then. 
Here's a more detailed description: Articulation Set Editor - Output tab. I set articulations to send a PC. I enter the PC# in the Value column - life switching does not work (but playback of recorded switching does). when I add a midi channel assignment according to the PC#s (so PC# 2 gets midi channel 3 (depending on how the receiving instrument is set up (1st = 0 or 1)), life switching works. even though the midid channel should have nothing to do with the PC# being sent (because the receiving instrument uses just 1 midi chanel for all aritculations - like Vienna Instruments Player)


----------



## Peter Schwartz (Oct 24, 2018)

Yes, I see the behavior you're talking about.

However, Logic is outputting the correct MIDI data when each of the Output entry's channels are set to be the same (here, ch1). In the MIDI Monitor shown below, the C3's are test notes, and each one is correctly preceded by a PC message.





Why your plugin (Vienna) isn't responding correctly to this data is a mystery. It's definitely not a Logic bug, because when this data is output to an external MIDI synth in my rig, the synth switches perfectly to the program change messages generated by the Articulation Set.

_to be continued..._


----------



## Peter Schwartz (Oct 24, 2018)

Now let's take a look at Logic's MIDI output with the setup you described, where each PC message outputs on a different channel. Here, Logic generates unnecessary, potentially troublesome data. Explanation below...





As in the previous example, the MIDI monitor shows the MIDI generated by the Articulation Set as well as my C3 test notes.

Before I played the first note I selected articulation #3 on my switching device. Then I selected articulation #1, cleared the MIDI monitor, and played a note. Notice that the note message is preceded by _two_ PC messages (red box). The first of these is on ch3 with a value of zero. It's completely erroneous and should never be transmitted. Only the PC message on ch1 with a value of zero is needed.

Now to the second note... I switched to articulation #2 and played another C3. The green box outlines how Logic generated a PC message on channel 1 with a value of zero (again, completely unnecessary) before sending the only needed PC event on channel 2 (value of 1).

After switching to articulation #3 (yellow box) we see exactly the same behavior as before.

In this situation, Logic is behaving the same way as it does when the Output section is programmed to generate MIDI notes ("keyswitch notes"). I'll explain what I mean by this in a separate post.


----------



## Peter Schwartz (Oct 24, 2018)

> In this situation, Logic is behaving the same way as it does when the Output section is programmed to generate MIDI notes ("keyswitch notes").



In the following example, ignore the data in the red box for the time being...

When an Articulation Set outputs MIDI notes (keyswitch notes) Logic generates the keyswitch Note and transmits it immediately before the actual musical note (E3 in this example). This is shown in the green and yellow boxes as C#-2 and D-2 with velocity values of 1. That's all 100% correct stuff.






But Logic doesn't send the corresponding Note OFF message for a generated keyswitch until a musical note with a different ID is encountered. Only then does Logic generate the Note OFF for the previous ID, followed by the Note ON for the new ID.

Thus, in the green box you see the results of switching from ID#1 to ID#2. The Note OFF for the previous keyswitch (C-2, value 0) was sent before the new keyswitch note was sent (C#-2, value 1).

I don't condone this approach myself. I would be far better for a generated keyswitch's Note Off message to be sent anywhere from 1 - 25 ms after the keyswitch Note On is generated. But be that as it may, here's the point:

When generating PC events with the above setup, Logic exhibits a very similar behavior to the keyswitch setup, where it's outputting the equivalent of an "off" message for the previous PC event when it detects a new ID. There is no such thing as a "turn the program change off" message in MIDI, and there doesn't need to be for any conceivable reason. In fact, it's the most undesirable behavior there could be for articulation switching.

As for why Vienna doesn't respond correctly to the correct MIDI data, but responds correctly to the incorrect MIDI data, is truly strange.

*CONCLUSION*: The only "bug" I can see with respect to generating Program Change messages from an articulation set is how Logic generates "off" messages for pc events when a new ID is detected. But my gut feeling is that this a design oversight as opposed to an actual bug (there is a difference ).


----------



## teammwrp (Oct 24, 2018)

@Peter Schwartz, why would you prefer keyswitch A's *Note Off* message be generated _after _keyswitch B's *Note On*?

Not disagreeing, just curious.


----------



## Peter Schwartz (Oct 24, 2018)

Hi teammwrp,

Several reasons...

1• *Timing *(in the spirit of getting actual musical notes to their destination as quickly as possible)...

It would be ideal if MIDI note messages were "monolithic" -- a single message containing pitch, velocity, and articulation-switching (or articulation-defining) information.

But that's not what we have to work with. Each MIDI note -- regardless of whether it's an On or Off message for a keyswitch note or a "musical note" -- is a package of 3 discreet messages that are sent serially:

• Note Message Header (which includes the channel number)
• Pitch
• Velocity

It doesn't take long to fully transmit a package of data for either a Note On or Note Off message (approx. 1 ms) but those start to add up when you play chords, or send quantized notes to a drum plugin playing a lot of sounds at once. See, all MIDI data is sent serially, even to plugins within DAWs; so a 4 note chord of quantized MIDI notes is actually an arpeggio of MIDI notes that takes 4 ms to "spread".

4 ms may not seem like a long time, but once you start introducing CC's into the mix for controlling dynamics, volume, etc., the amount of "time spread" between the first and last note of that chord starts to increase. A 6 note chord (or quantized drum part) with CC's streaming in-between them may take as long as 12 or more milliseconds to sound. And that equates to slop.

Thus, anything that can be done to improve the tightness of timing between notes is desirable, and introducing the Note Off for the previous articulation's keyswitch into the MIDI stream falls afoul of that approach.

Now... it's not like having 1 MIDI message (like a keyswitch note) preceding an actual musical note is going to _always_ make difference (create a delay) in timing. In fact, I've repeated tests over the years to see what kind of impact there might be on timing when keyswitch+musical note are generated by my Scripts, and in most cases there is essentially zero delay (the max delay might be a few samples). But that aside, any MIDI programmer worth their salt will always seek to write code that ensures that the timing of notes is as tight as possible. And sending the Note Off message soon after the Note On goes a long way towards achieving accurate timing.

In essence (and ideally, in my book) the Note Off should be sent during "down time" -- while the note is currently sounding.

Now are you ready for a short reason? LOL! 

*2• Plugin GUI Graphics & Patch Performance*

It's always disconcerting (for me anyway) to see the keyboard graphics on plugins look like this:





This keyswitch appears to be "stuck" on. Keyswitches aren't implemented as needing to be long events. When not using articulation sets or 3rd party switchers it's normal operation to see them flash momentarily when a new sound is selected.

But with Logic's current keyswitch-generating scheme, the plugin is going to display the last-selected keyswitch in perpetuity until a new articulation is selected.

I also believe that some patches won't switch correctly if an articulation selector is "stuck on", which it actually is per Logic's way of doing things.


----------



## teammwrp (Oct 24, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> Hi teammwrp,
> 
> Several reasons...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the very thorough response!

So, in your opinion, is this why some libraries notoriously have difficulties with, e.g., Note Off events/stuck/hanging notes in Logic (CineBrass comes to mind)? Poorly-implemented Note Off handling on one or perhaps both ends?


----------



## Peter Schwartz (Oct 24, 2018)

teammwrp said:


> So, in your opinion, is this why some libraries notoriously have difficulties with, e.g., Note Off events/stuck/hanging notes in Logic (CineBrass comes to mind)? Poorly-implemented Note Off handling on one or perhaps both ends?



I've heard that CineBrass have difficulties like you described, but I don't have that library so I really can't say. But myself and other composers I know have routinely experienced exactly what you described with Cinematic Studio Strings & Cinematic Strings 2. I believe the cause has something to with the way their Kontakt scripting handles MIDI, but to be fair I really can't say for certain.


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## wolf (Oct 24, 2018)

Peter, thank for your effort to help and figure this out. I'm happy that things work with your external synth. Does it work with live switching on AUX channels though?
Vienna Instruments correctly receives the PCs if they are in fact forwarded by LPX. your monitors show the output upon playback, not live switching on AUX tracks. Playback works fine - even with the extra PCs; and with Vienna Instruments. 

However, the increasing values of midi CHs are indeed unnecessary, as I just found in further testing: seems like live switching works on AUX when any Midi channel other than none ( - ) or 1 is selected in the Output tab. And if it's the same channel for all articulations, the extra CH 0 PC is not being sent on playback either.

so that seems to be the workaround that works for me currently: when using Articulation Sets on AUX channels for live switching, set the Channel in the Output tab to 2 or higher. AND make sure no note is selected on that track (thanks again Resound).


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 24, 2018)

*Peter, thank for your effort to help and figure this out. *

You're very welcome! 
*
I'm happy that things work with your external synth. *

Me too! And of course, the point of that test was to see if Logic is generating correctly-formed MIDI messages that work as you'd expect them to, but with a different test subject.

_*your monitors show the output upon playback, not live switching on AUX tracks.*_

No... The MIDI monitors are showing the actual MIDI messages generated by an Articulation Set in response to live articulation switching, plus the live-played notes on my controller keyboard. There was no playback involved.

*...if it's the same channel for all articulations, the extra CH 0 PC is not being sent on playback either.
*
Correct. If the channel is the same, the extras are not sent.

*aux channels...*

I didn't test the behavior on Aux channels. My analysis details the fundamental behavior of an Articulation Set on an normal instrument channel. I'll check out the finer points of working with Aux channels later this evening.

Cheers,

Peter


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 24, 2018)

One clarification.

DAW plugins do NOT process midi events serially the same way external devices do. For external devices, midi events are sent over a real time electrical circuit and as Peter explained it takes time to do it, so a complete sequence of midi events and articulation key switches representing a chord, for example, could take a few milliseconds.

Conversely, In a DAW plugin it is not handled completely real time. DAW’s process midi and audio in a buffer in non-realtime and send the whole buffer in larger chunks to the sound card. That’s why there is always some latency, but a chord full of midi events will be scheduled in the audio buffer at exactly the same time, they will not be strung out over milliseconds like is the case with external midi devices.

When playing back from regions into a plugin all midi events will be sample accurate! The serial nature is still relevant in that midi events will be sitting in an ordered queue and processed in that order. That is why you can schedule an event in logic scripter on certain beatpos and a second event on the same exact beatpos and the plugin will process each event in that order but still the sounds produced by the plugin will all be sample accurate exactly on the beatpos they are scheduled for.

Plugins don’t do their dsp magic in true real time. They do operate on the queue in the order the events are given to it, but the dsp that takes place to process one audio buffer worth of real time is handled as quickly as possible and time sharing with other processes on the computer etc... the plugins fill up the audio buffer with the resulting audio at whatever pace they can do it, rendering sound into the buffer completely sample accurately. Ideally they finish well before the time is up to send the buffer to the soundcard or else you’d get drop outs.

Anyway the point is, the serial scheduling of events is definitely relevant and important particularly when trying to insert keyswitches in front of events. But in daw plugins these will NOT create delays to the sounding notes at all! You can have 10 keyswitches and it would not matter! But the plugin still needs to be able to process all the midi events during one audio buffer in time to avoid dropouts. LPX also has a midi buffer limitation in terms of how many midi events per buffer it can handle on any single channel. So you have to worry about that too, but having too many would literally cause dropped events (including noteoff) or audio dropouts.....not delays


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 24, 2018)

further to the above, regarding when to send the note off for key switches. In my view it makes no difference at all unless the instrument plugin requires the key switch to be held down in order to be in effect, in which case it would matter a lot. Most key switches do not work that way though, they are momentary switches which effect things and the plugin is probably ignoring the noteOff. In that light it makes no difference functionally when the NoteOff happens. I've been scheduling them in my own scripts immediately after the key switch NoteOn and it works fine. Doesn't need to be after the sounding note, like I said, unless the instrument plugin requires the key switch to be held down while other notes are effected by it. In some ways that is a possibility which Apple's approach is basically covering that contingency.

The other possibility would be to do some kind of super smart stuff where you hold off on sending the key switch NoteOff's until there is a quiet time with less midi traffic, then send a bunch of them during that quiet time when there are not sound note's to be handled. But that would be kind of complicated and probably not worth the hassle.

Scheduling the NoteOff of the key switch after the NoteOn of the sounding Note will have no effect on the midi timing whatsoever... And there is no guarantee that doing it later will be at a time when there is less midi traffic either. I think Apple's approach probably makes sense.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 24, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> This keyswitch appears to be "stuck" on. Keyswitches aren't implemented as needing to be long events. When not using articulation sets or 3rd party switchers it's normal operation to see them flash momentarily when a new sound is selected.
> 
> But with Logic's current keyswitch-generating scheme, the plugin is going to display the last-selected keyswitch in perpetuity until a new articulation is selected.



This is the thing that is a little interesting. The plugin window control that shows the "current" articulation...is that showing the input switch or the output switch? I do not think it shows the output switch. It think it shows an internal state that is related to the incoming key switches on the input side...and it puts the TRACK into a state where there is a current articulationID that has been selected, either via that plugin window control or via an input key switch. the output switches should have no effect on that whatsoever. Rather, the output switches may appear to reflect what that control is showing in some way, by virtue of the fact that as a track is playing and reading the articulation ID out of events, it may be updating that plugin window control in some way. That control has the ability to change the input state of how new incoming events will be encoded with articulation id too...which is I think why some people are having this problem where it seems to flip back somehow..probably from other events on the track maybe I don't know...but I personally think there is something screwy happening with that control and the internal state it shows..which is read from more than one place and then used to encode incoming notes. In other words, its a race condition.

someone said earlier this happens when they have a note selected in the piano roll. Somehow having a note selected must be putting that internal state to the articulationID of that selected note. incoming key switches temporarily change that state, but the selected note still wins the race condition for controlling that internal state that is reflected in the plugin window control.


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## wolf (Oct 24, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> *aux channels...*
> 
> I didn't test the behavior on Aux channels.



well, that was my whole point! I know it works on instrument and midi channels.

hmpf!


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 24, 2018)

The thing about aux tracks is that there is some hidden mojo going on in the first place to even let that happen. Logic looks at the associated AUX channel and then figures out that the aux channel is expanded from a base instrument channel and routes the midi to that instrument channel using the midi channel defined on the aux track.

However, notice that track delay cannot be set? It uses the track delay of the base instrument channel.

This tells me that this is not a completely independent midi track, as is the case of the other multi approaches. Now...how does that relate to articulation handling? No idea..aux tracks seem to be able to have their own articulation set for each one...but sooner or later it merges with the instrument channel, separated only by midi channel...and under the covers that aforementioned articulation control on the plugin window also has some internal state that is related to the instrument channel...so... dunno... If it doesn't work it doesn't work, but let's just say it doesn't surprise me, especially with regards to the input key switches, that plugin window control and the internal state of how incoming events will be encoded. Under the covers LPX is somehow taking that internal state and using it to encode midi events way back before they hit the sequencer, even though the plugin window is way after the sequencer. So does it go out to all the associated AUX tracks when using this trick? 

The aux track trick is kind of a hidden trick that happens to work in some cases, but its not really the official way to handle multi's, so to speak... report it as a bug, maybe they'll fix it, if you can explain the problem well to them.


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 24, 2018)

wolf said:


> well, that was my whole point! I know it works on instrument and midi channels.
> 
> hmpf!



I'm not sure if that was meant in jest or not, but it took me upwards of an hour to get THAT far in the analysis. Considering you're getting the benefit of my expertise for free, I don't see how "hmpf!" is appropriate.

And please keep in mind that this thread is not just about your specific situation. My study of what's being output by Articulation Sets had to start _somewhere_, and an examination of the MIDI events it generates has bigger implications than your singular scenario. It's pretty clear that Logic is outputting unnecessary events under certain circumstances, and I think it's important information to be aware of for anyone using Articulation Sets to drive their patches.


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 24, 2018)

@Dewdman42 

Much to reply to, working backwards...

• Selecting a MIDI note in an editor should not feed back its ID to the Articulation Set as if it were an external MIDI event "switch". There is definitely something screwy in 10.4.2 in that regard. BTW, it's not the only thing in Logic that's "feeding back" with respect to MIDI, but I won't elaborate at this time. The good thing, though, is that playback always seems fine though, so I don't think anyone has to worry about that.

• The plugin window control is supposed to show the live (current) articulation selection. It's the equivalent of setting up a Smart Control to display "Articulation (non-automatable)". It should never change in response to clicking on recorded MIDI notes. It should only respond to MIDI Remote "switch" definitions.

• I don't believe your description of MIDI data hitting plugins in a non-serial fashion is possible. MIDI data, by way of the limited number of MIDI tick subdivisions we are locked into slotting MIDI events into -- the spacing of which changes depending on the tempo -- won't always fall neatly within the clocking scheme at every sample rate. This is probably a topic for a separate thread. But I'll say this... regardless of how the DAW is handling things, MIDI has to be treated as serial when programming Scripts (as you know) and also when considering the order of events generated from an Articulation Set. So even if it's not (somehow) treated handled within a DAW, there's little reason to consider it anything other than serial in nature. I think we can agree on this point.

• As for whether it makes sense to send a note off for a previous keyswitch sooner than later (or later than sooner), as I mentioned previously, I think it only makes sense to send it during "down time" as I characterized above. If nothing else, taking this approach removes a variable from troubleshooting efforts undertaken to overcome perceived "MIDI delays". Still I can't think of a single good reason to send it at the onset of a new articulation. There's no benefit. If nothing else, it's potentially a liability. A minuscule one, but still one to be avoided.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 24, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> And please keep in mind that this thread is not just about your specific situation. My study of what's being output by Articulation Sets had to start _somewhere_, and an examination of the MIDI events it generates has bigger implications than your singular scenario. It's pretty clear that Logic is outputting unnecessary events under certain circumstances, and I think it's important information to be aware of for anyone using Articulation Sets to drive their patches.



Yes definitely. We need to get a wiki or something to document all the behavior precisely.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 24, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> @Dewdman42
> 
> • Selecting a MIDI note in an editor should not feed back its ID to the Articulation Set as if it were an external MIDI event "switch". There is definitely something screwy in 10.4.2 in that regard.


Could be. I’m only responding to what others have observed above. Obviously they internal state is getting confused by a race condition of some kind.



> • The plugin window control is supposed to show the live (current) articulation selection. It's the equivalent of setting up a Smart Control to display "Articulation (non-automatable)". It should never change in response to clicking on recorded MIDI notes. It should only respond to MIDI Remote "switch" definitions.


Its not only a display. That's part of the problem I see here. It can function as a display of what the input switches are doing but it can also be used to actually control how incoming events will be encoded. Input key switches change an internal state...and changing that control also changes that internal state...that state being...how to encode the following incoming midi events. True, kind of like a smart control. Something else is changing it also, apparently the midi notes on the track or selected notes are also impacting it. And I agree that seems like a bug.



> • I don't believe your description of MIDI data hitting plugins in a non-serial fashion is possible. MIDI data, by way of the limited number of MIDI tick subdivisions we are locked into slotting MIDI events into -- the spacing of which changes depending on the tempo -- won't always fall neatly within the clocking scheme at every sample rate. This is probably a topic for a separate thread. But I'll say this... regardless of how the DAW is handling things, MIDI has to be treated as serial when programming Scripts (as you know) and also when considering the order of events generated from an Articulation Set. So even if it's not (somehow) treated handled within a DAW, there's little reason to consider it anything other than serial in nature. I think we can agree on this point.


Please read my post again and ponder it over night, as I feel it will help you in your product development. As I stated, midi is serial in so much that the events are processed one at a time, in the same order they are enqueued. However, plugins do not operate in real time, so the rendered audio will not be strung out over time like it would if you were sending those midi events over a cable. No delay will be introduced at all!! period. Midi regions are always rendered sample accurately that is one of the beautiful things about DAW technology compared to external synths. So if you have 3 keyswitches in front of a note that makes sound...the plugin will process those 3 key switches before processing the note that sounds, but the note that sounds will still render sound into the audio buffer exactly on the beat position it was intended for. No delay.



> • As for whether it makes sense to send a note off for a previous keyswitch sooner than later (or later than sooner), as I mentioned previously, I think it only makes sense to send it during "down time" as I characterized above. If nothing else, taking this approach removes a variable from troubleshooting efforts undertaken to overcome perceived "MIDI delays". Still I can't think of a single good reason to send it at the onset of a new articulation. There's no benefit. If nothing else, it's potentially a liability. A minuscule one, but still one to be avoided.



Apple is probably taking the safest approach because their approach handles the case where the plugin might expect a key switch to be held down while the subsequent sounding-notes are rendered. Their approach handles it either way and I don't see any downside. It keeps a key switch in effect until a new one comes in.. Which is probably what most people want and probably how most instruments respond as well.

Beyond that, there is no advantage whatsoever to delaying the key switch NoteOff because you have no way to determine ahead of time whether there will be more midi traffic in the buffer at the time the KS noteOn is sent or 25ms later. If there is more midi traffic 25ms later, then it would have been better to send the key switch NoteOff right away. The concern isn't about creating delays (see above), its more about maxing out the midi buffer for a given process block on a channel with too many midi events during any one processing block.


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## Peter Schwartz (Oct 24, 2018)

Maybe we're talking about two different controls (displays?) I'm talking about the "Articulation" display that appears on 3rd party plugins that shows the currently selected articulation. I've never ventured a look into Logic's string/brass stuff. This one (on Play) behaves exactly as I described it in my posts.








> Please read my post again and ponder it over night, as I feel it will help you in your product development.



That's quite condescending, don't you think? My products (and those I consult on) all work very nicely, thank you. My understanding of MIDI has never been called into question, and it's not about to start with you. You may not regard me as a peer, and that's fine. But I don't have to indulge your smug approach to 'discussion' either.

I think I've contributed enough to this now lengthy thread, so I'll make my exit before this gets any uglier.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 24, 2018)

offering information that I consider to be true when other information that is false, its not condescending nor "smug" my friend. Its just the facts as I see them. Sorry to hear you are not willing to take that information in. No ugliness is intended from my end, my friend...just honest help. The area for clarity here is about timing of midi events processed in a DAW plugin. The information you posted earlier is not correct. Sorry if this offends you to hear it, but I am not meaning to offend you, only to clarify; not only for you but for anyone else reading this thread in years to come. And I truly do hope you will try to read it some more and take it in and consider it for your own benefit...

The control you show above is on all plugin windows where the track has an articulation set activated. It will show up on the Logic instruments I mentioned and it will show up on other instruments as well..it shows up the minute you activate an articulation set.

Now turn off all input key switches and see what happens when you set that control to something and record some midi. Actually the state of the midi remote button may matter here too, not sure.


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## wolf (Oct 25, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> I'm not sure if that was meant in jest or not, but it took me upwards of an hour to get THAT far in the analysis. Considering you're getting the benefit of my expertise for free, I don't see how "hmpf!" is appropriate.
> 
> And please keep in mind that this thread is not just about your specific situation. My study of what's being output by Articulation Sets had to start _somewhere_, and an examination of the MIDI events it generates has bigger implications than your singular scenario. It's pretty clear that Logic is outputting unnecessary events under certain circumstances, and I think it's important information to be aware of for anyone using Articulation Sets to drive their patches.



Peter, thank you for the attempt at a lecture. not needed though. I was reporting my observations and quest to find a solution in the same spirit you jumped on your investigation - sharing experiences in hopes that others benefit also and can find relevant information that helps me (Resound did and I thanked him too). You simply overlooked my initial post (# 133) and several posts later where I multiple times specifically state that my issue concerns live switching on AUX tracks. (there were 2 posts where I didn't describe the full setup again because that seemed dull to me.)
No need to get defensive or imply the monetary worth of your expertise as if I owe you compensation. If that's your spirit, please don't comment on my questions any more. I thank everybody for their effort to help, including you (see post 166). Unfortunately your expertise was confusing (even within post 167 you at first ignored the AUX track reference.) and cost me extra time because you explained a different scenario while replying specifically to my posts.

All is good though since I (with the help of some info on this thread) found a workaround (see post 166) which you seem to have overlooked. But my hunch is this would be useful for your products as well.

And don't make me explain it again, because my expertise is expensive too, ya know


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## wolf (Oct 25, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> The thing about aux tracks is that there is some hidden mojo going
> ... report it as a bug, maybe they'll fix it, if you can explain the problem well to them.



thank you for your thoughts. definitely lots of hidden mojo in the AUX  And it keeps getting better. I'm thrilled that we can use Articulation sets on AUX tracks. Now if only we could see them as an automation lane... (like some of the 3rd party solutions offer)
and yes, I shall make a valiant attempt to explain this situation to the magical mojo makers at Apple.


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## samphony (Oct 25, 2018)

wolf said:


> I shall make a valiant attempt to explain this situation to the magical mojo makers at Apple.


It gets interesting how the AUv3 multi midi channel spec will be implemented!


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## teammwrp (Oct 25, 2018)

Peter Schwartz said:


> I've heard that CineBrass have difficulties like you described, but I don't have that library so I really can't say. But myself and other composers I know have routinely experienced exactly what you described with Cinematic Studio Strings & Cinematic Strings 2. I believe the cause has something to with the way their Kontakt scripting handles MIDI, but to be fair I really can't say for certain.


Yes, those were some of the other ones I had had in mind. Glad to know we aren't at fault...!


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## ReelToLogic (Oct 25, 2018)

I updated Logic to 10.4.2 so that I could re-locate my Logic Library to an external drive, but now I have what appears to be a serious bug that's driving me crazy. Whenever I edit any notes in the piano-roll view, the automation lane for that track in the main view switches from "Volume" to "Note Velocity". I do NOT have "Autoselect Automation Parameters in Read Mode" turned on, but it's behaving a bit like that option is stuck "on". It's not quite like that because even if I'm editing modulation data in piano-roll view, the main views' automation lane switches to "Note Velocity"!

I use a lot of volume automation in the main view and now I have to constantly switch each tracks' automation back to "Volume" from "Note Velocity" after any editing in the piano-roll view.

I've attached a short movie which shows this behavior. Have I inadvertently done something to change a setting? Does anyone else have this problem after the 10.4.2 update? Any ideas how to keep my main window automation set to "Volume"? This is why I'm always hesitant to do updates...


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## Soundhound (Oct 28, 2018)

Forgive me if this has already been asked and answered. I have my Logic sounds and Apple loops on an external, using symbolic links. I'm wondering if it would be good to invoke the built in relocate function somehow, rather than using the links I created myself? Or no reason to bother doing that?


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## AHM (Oct 30, 2018)

ReelToLogic said:


> I updated Logic to 10.4.2 so that I could re-locate my Logic Library to an external drive, but now I have what appears to be a serious bug that's driving me crazy. Whenever I edit any notes in the piano-roll view, the automation lane for that track in the main view switches from "Volume" to "Note Velocity". I do NOT have "Autoselect Automation Parameters in Read Mode" turned on, but it's behaving a bit like that option is stuck "on". It's not quite like that because even if I'm editing modulation data in piano-roll view, the main views' automation lane switches to "Note Velocity"!
> 
> I use a lot of volume automation in the main view and now I have to constantly switch each tracks' automation back to "Volume" from "Note Velocity" after any editing in the piano-roll view.
> 
> I've attached a short movie which shows this behavior. Have I inadvertently done something to change a setting? Does anyone else have this problem after the 10.4.2 update? Any ideas how to keep my main window automation set to "Volume"? This is why I'm always hesitant to do updates...



Hi,
look at my post in this thread. It's an annoying bug.
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/logic-10-4-2-released.75307/page-6#post-4293119


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## ReelToLogic (Oct 31, 2018)

AHM said:


> Hi,
> look at my post in this thread. It's an annoying bug.
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/logic-10-4-2-released.75307/page-6#post-4293119



AHM - Thanks for confirming this bug. I posted about this on the Apple support forum and was told to submit a bug report at the link below. I did so, but I'm guessing the bugs that affect more users get more attention from the developers so please submit one too - if you haven't already.
https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html


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## AHM (Nov 1, 2018)

Did it on the first day of release


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