# What's the origin of your political views, and..?



## NYC Composer (Nov 26, 2014)

...have they changed over time?

I got my political views from my parents. They worked for the civil rights movement in the 60's and were (obviously) liberal. The times I grew up in influenced me as well, and though my thoughts have been modified by time and experience, i still see things largely through the lens my parents were looking through.

And you?


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## Daryl (Nov 26, 2014)

My political views are pretty much based on my life experiences. I never discussed politics with my parents, and they never spoke to each other, so can't really say that they influenced me much in that department.

However, like most people, my views have become less left wing over the years. It's easy to have a socialist viewpoint when you are not creating the wealth for other people to spend. However, that doesn't mean that I'm not a socialist at heart. Just that I am also pragmatic and understand how to run a business, which sets me apart from most musicians. :wink: 

D


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## G.R. Baumann (Nov 26, 2014)

Interesting question Larry.

My opinions on socio-economic and geo-political developments were mostly influenced by 1. reading 2. discussions with my piano professor and others. This was from the age of 11 onwards.

My core views were formed around 16-17 years and they had not changed over time, on the contrary. 

I remember well when I got my copy of Global 2000 in the 80s.

http://www.geraldbarney.com/G2000Page.html

There are too many books and authors to list here that I find essential. Of course music was equally essential to me, besides the classics, I had a lot of interest in modern music from Stockhausen to Zappa.

With reading the Global 2000, history, hence the history of economy and wars became more and more important to me to better understand in context. 

There were some key experiences and highlights as well of course, such as a personal exchange with Prof. Albert Bartlett, but my most important key experience perhaps was the first Gulf war and the way the media reported, the world had changed from that moment on.

The global bankster's heist from 2008 was another event that changed the world.

Today, with war mongerers and the military industrial complex more aggressively pushing, from a meglomaniac European leadership, to an unelected financial oligarchy dictating austerity, more and more subsequent results of the gloabl heist from 2008 are manifesting. The manufactured economical boom-bust cycles and their proportional relationship with emerging war theaters are of particular interest to understand in context. 

The way things are developing, I wonder how much more it takes, perhaps not too much but a little bit more time, and we have 1848 again.


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## Resoded (Nov 26, 2014)

Interesting question. My political views that I have today have changed quite a lot over the last 10 years, due to a long and difficult process where I've questioned my opinions and searched for facts and information.

My impression is that its easy to fall into the trap of having other peoples opinions internalized and viewed upon as if they were ones own. And more disturbingly, treasured and defended.

My rule of thumb is that all opinions must be traced back to an original thought process within, and must be possible to argue both with experiences and facts. The problem is that if one cannot trace something back to ones thought process, then that opinion isn't ones own. And if one carries opinions that aren't ones own, that can't be properly argued for, then one have been manipulated and indoctrinated. Indoctrination isn't necessarily a bad thing though, but there's a danger to it because it can be a loophole for extremist ideas to hop into the minds of potentially regular people.

Basically, this thinking guided me through a long and difficult process where I've discovered tonnes of assumptions, ideas, thoughts and opinions that _aren't mine_. This scares me. Things that I've picked up from family, friends, school, news, politicians, academics etc. And when I say opinions that aren't mine, I mean things that I can't trace back to an original thought process where experiences, facts and questions leads to a conclusion. Maybe even things that I have no basis for whatsoever. There are a lot of "truths" out there that really aren't truths at all.

Even more scary is when people equal opinion with personality. That leads the person to never question, and never learn and grow, because questioning an opinion is equal to questioning ones own being. Or when people equal other peoples opinions with their assumed personality, left wing = naive, right wing = greedy, any wing = stupid... and all that.

Now if you would allow me to get a bit philosophical, then sometimes I wonder if the lack of questioning, the lack of an intellectual process leading to the formation of opinions, is the breeding ground for totalitarian ways in whatever form. But I digress.

Sorry, a bit longer than I thought it would be!

It's important for me to note though that I'm not saying that questioning automatically makes one change opinion, it can also reinforce the current opinion.

I should also note that I guess I'm a bit of a purist and that it's probably inevitable that opinions is a messy thing. Maybe it's impossible to have a clinical mind free from double standards and hypocrisy? Maybe it's impossible to not equal opinions with self?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 26, 2014)

These are thoughtful, interesting and broad ranging responses, thank you.

To clarify a bit- first, I am CONSTANTLY questioning, defending, discarding and changing nuances of my thoughts on various matters. That's one reason I post questions- I'm often interested in other people's point of view even if I vehemently disagree.

My premise and assumption though, is this- for most people there is a starting point, a voice that spoke to you. A parent, a mentor, a teacher, a friend, a sibling, a lover.

Not so?


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## G.R. Baumann (Nov 26, 2014)

Yes of course, in my case that was my piano professor and friend. I was lucky to have met him as he was broadly educated, speaking 11 languages, writing 9 of them,(not including music here :wink: ) and overall being a source of in depth knowledge on many matters. 

Staying sharp requires to have an open heart and mind, and not to be ideologically stuck.

With media "force feeding" sound bytes and ideologically motivated censorship, select set informations, this has become more difficult for current generations that perhaps are less educated in understanding how media really works.

Understanding and identifying propaganda as such should be a important part of our education systems, as well as teaching them how money/debt is created. Having a little insight in educational systems in Europe and the US, I think that not enough is being done here to achieve that, on the contrary, the influence of corporates and the privatisation tendencies of education is evident. When the german commerzbank for example "cooperates" with schools and as a result 15 years old have to go to the bank and participate in a "Anlayse of your potential" day, this is totally unacceptable in my world.


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## wst3 (Nov 26, 2014)

cool question!

My views are constantly changing, and I think they always have been... although the distance they shift seems to be shrinking.

My first views developed from my parents views. Mom leaned left, Dad leaned right, but mostly they were both pragmatic and relatively centered.

There were teachers, mentors, neighbors, local elected officials, and of course friends that helped me to form my own opinions over the years. College was especially fruitful in that respect.

And now, some 30 plus years out of school I find it increasingly difficult to find solid information on which to form opinions.

And of course I am heavily influenced now by my own experiences.

All of the these things still have some influence, but I'd have to guess that my experiences in the world are the biggest contributors.


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## chimuelo (Nov 26, 2014)

Always went with what the Business Agents at the Union Hall organized for.
Reagan/Bush/Clinton.
Since the Lewinsky affair I started reading books by Gore Vidal, Perrot and Nader.
So after educating myself more actually research who I vote for.

Haven't been right since then,...... :lol: 

I actually am more concerned with our foreign policy than domestic policy.
I don't even know how I will vote in 2016.

I definitely will never vote again for inexperienced nominees, regardless of what they claim to stand for.

No more experiments, they are too costly and way too divisive.
Leadership and a record of achievements is a good start.
Governors come to mind. 

What would be really nice is to see the best nominee from each party share the Oval Office.
Loser based on party becomes the VP.

At this point what have we got to lose..?
At least that shows our allies and adversaries we are united.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 26, 2014)

chimuelo @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> What would be really nice is to see the best nominee from each party share the Oval Office.
> Loser based on party becomes the VP.



Here's a funny scenario for your idea. Could you imagine Nick as president with a Republican VP? The poor guy would need therapy after a week, with all the abuse Nick would hurl at him.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 26, 2014)

"Abuse" implies it's inappropriate, so it's the wrong word. And it would take less than a week.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 26, 2014)

Look. The debate over the role of government doesn't have a right or wrong, just opinion. I happen to have my opinions, but I don't shout at people who simply believe xxx government programs wouldn't work and therefore we shouldn't have them.

(Of course, that doesn't mean I don't shout at idiots who are opposed to programs just because they don't like government helping people or whatever the ideology. I mean I don't shout at legitimate, intellectual positions.)

But that's not the debate we're having today. The Republican party has become a bunch of shallow, destructive lunatics who support only the short-term interests of very, very few people and the long-term interest of nobody. They're the biggest problem facing our country.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 26, 2014)

And if you think that's just hyperbole, name an issue and I'll prove my point.

***
My answer to Larry's question: reality! But I refined my opinions in some outstanding political science classes at Berklee almost 35 years ago. Paul Smith; I wonder what became of him. (Yes, the academic classes at a music college actually can be as good as any others.)

Edit: I should add that the instructor was conservative. So stick that up your...


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## chimuelo (Nov 26, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> Here's a funny scenario for your idea. Could you imagine Nick as president with a Republican VP? The poor guy would need therapy after a week, with all the abuse Nick would hurl at him.



I don't think you can have an income when you're on subsidies.

Ankyu


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## Hannes_F (Nov 26, 2014)

This forum, sometimes. Ha!



NYC Composer @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> ...have they changed over time?



Yes, constantly.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 26, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> chimuelo @ Wed Nov 26 said:
> 
> 
> > What would be really nice is to see the best nominee from each party share the Oval Office.
> ...



So Michael- to the original question?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 26, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> This forum, sometimes. Ha!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which part amuses you, Hannes?


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## rJames (Nov 26, 2014)

My father voted Republican, my mother Democrat. My brother calls himself a member of the Tea Party (he doesn't like taxes).

I've voted both ways in my lifetime. I've always considered myself a conservative but I guess that was mostly about economic policy.

The right has gone so far to the right that the center (where I live) is called liberal.

My political views are derived from observation.

Today's Republican right wing has learned that if you say something long enough and loud enough that it becomes true (to the brainless masses).

Exhibit 1: An intelligent person who lives her life as the definition of disingenuous.
http://www.amazon.com/ANN-COULTER-BOOKS/lm/R26FWXE1HGBKT6

BTW I'm not saying that there aren't brainless liberal masses as well. We live in a world of people who don't have an idea of the long run or what is going on farther than a few miles from their understanding.

But I don't see a liberal Ann Coulter who is just plain insulting all of the time. Ted Cruz; an immigrant who hates immigrants and who would shut down the government instead of working as a senator (within the system) to change it.

I know these are intelligent people and it makes me even more worried that they want control more than they want progress.

All white men at the top posts of committees because women and people of color can't handle it. Right? Or?

I look at the world and what is going on to form my political views.

Ron James


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 26, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Wed Nov 26 said:
> 
> 
> > chimuelo @ Wed Nov 26 said:
> ...



The original question - the origins of my political beliefs?

My political beliefs arise from my moral beliefs and my beliefs in the sanctity of life.


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## Hannes_F (Nov 26, 2014)

Resoded @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> My impression is that its easy to fall into the trap of having other peoples opinions internalized and viewed upon as if they were ones own. And more disturbingly, treasured and defended.
> 
> My rule of thumb is that all opinions must be traced back to an original thought process within, and must be possible to argue both with experiences and facts. The problem is that if one cannot trace something back to ones thought process, then that opinion isn't ones own. And if one carries opinions that aren't ones own, that can't be properly argued for, then one have been manipulated and indoctrinated.



Very good IMHO.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 26, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Nov 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Michael K. Bain @ Wed Nov 26 said:
> ...



Michael- and they sprang from no origin? You are completely self- created in your outlook? Like Nick, you plucked your outlook from the Tree of the Obvious, at birth? :wink:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 26, 2014)

> My political beliefs arise from my moral beliefs and my beliefs in the sanctity of life.



So do most people's, including mine. That's why I'm liberal when it comes to social and economic issues, and why I'm a dove when it comes to foreign policy.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 26, 2014)

Larry, you're such a great guy because you tolerate fools so gladly. Maybe one day I'll reach your level of wisdom.

Let's hope not.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 26, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> Larry, you're such a great guy because you tolerate fools so gladly. Maybe one day I'll reach your level of wisdom.
> 
> Let's hope not.



I'll skip the characterization and say this- maybe the world needs both of us, and some other points of view as well.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 26, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> Michael- and they sprang from no origin? You are completely self- created in your outlook? Like Nick, you plucked your outlook from the Tree of the Obvious, at birth? :wink:


Nope. The real truth is that I don't have much "political" opinion; most of my opinions are related to what I see as moral issues and issues of life.

Where do my moral beliefs comes from? 

I was raised in a Christian home. I decided to become a Christian 35 years ago. Since that time, I've tried to let myself and my opinions be formed by the Holy Spirit. I get in the way a lot, however.


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## Udo (Nov 29, 2014)

My views are based on "common sense" :wink: and the knowledge, even confirmed by a study funded by the Conservative Bush govt, that: 

"CONSERVATISM IS A SET OF NEUROSES ROOTED IN FEAR AND AGGRESSION, DOGMATISM AND INTOLERANCE OF AMBIGUITY". :( 

The first 3 a bad enough, but intolerance of (and therefore inability to rationally deal with) ambiguity makes CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE MANIFESTLY UNSUITABLE FOR ANY SIGNIFICANT LEADERSHIP ROLE. :wink:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 29, 2014)

Udo, duck. Larry is going to come after you like Don Quixote for being so certain of what even he knows is blatantly true.


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## AC986 (Nov 29, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> ...have they changed over time?
> And you?



I am basically apolitical. I tend to observe rather than get involved at an organic level in any political club. I cannot cross the line and commit to any party. Rather, I tend to choose what's good and bad from them all.

This in turn makes it virtually impossible to cast a vote. I am currently looking through all the 2010 election results via the BBC website. Yes, all 650 odd of them. In 2010 I got the conservatives to 2 seats, but fucked up on the liberals because they got far less than I thought they would. I still won money, but it would have been a lot more if the liberals hadn't caved.


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## rayinstirling (Nov 29, 2014)

My politics have changed little since the late 1960's. That was when wage increases first became totally negotiated on percentages. Those on the lowest rates were suckered into getting relatively poorer every year. Now, the gap between rich and poor is wider than it has ever been in the modern industrial world. Can I fix it? No chance, because people have lost the ability to work together for a common goal. It's everyone for themselves.
Exceptions? Of course but not nearly enough.


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 29, 2014)

I was brought up in a conservative, Christian home. But have become a left-leaning atheist.

Oddly enough, however, I don't think my outlook has changed a great deal (apart from the not believing in god thing, I guess).

Not sure exactly who has influenced my outlook though. My mum, certainly (and she is probably the most religious member of my family!). But, I think, as you grow up, you become more careful about the people you spend time with and I've had the good fortune to spend a great deal of time with caring, compassionate and logical people.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Nov 29 said:


> Udo, duck. Larry is going to come after you like Don Quixote for being so certain of what even he knows is blatantly true.



It's a horrible thing to have discussions with people who could disagree with you, as it might pervert your political purity. It could also potentially (gasp!) give you a wee bit of insight about how to bridge differences, which would obviously be a bad thing. Instead, one should live in an ideological bubble and only discuss matters with those who utterly agree with you. In that way, you will always be validated and never have to deal with any political realities. Be stalwart and immutable. Cry havoc and loose the dogs of superior intellect and higher moral ground. Be sure to sneer at the benighted. 

There are multiple class wars going on in America. It's short sighted, simplistic and dangerous to view them though a narrow lens.

This dance is starting to be serious fun for me, Nick.  Do you like to dance? 
You urinated on my recently offered olive branch. Okaythen. On we go.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Sat Nov 29 said:


> I was brought up in a conservative, Christian home. But have become a left-leaning atheist.
> 
> Oddly enough, however, I don't think my outlook has changed a great deal (apart from the not believing in god thing, I guess).
> 
> Not sure exactly who has influenced my outlook though. My mum, certainly (and she is probably the most religious member of my family!). But, I think, as you grow up, you become more careful about the people you spend time with and I've had the good fortune to spend a great deal of time with caring, compassionate and logical people.



Matt, do you find it an interesting thing to look at? I'm pretty fascinated about how people's outlook ended up where it is. It's a pretty telling source of insight for me, whether it's people reacting against early influences, being influenced by them or whatever.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 29, 2014)

Okay, here's my last urination on the subject.

I haven't once had a problem with discussing something only because people disagree with me. That's what you don't seem to get.

It's when people voice idiotic opinions - usually ones that are supported by half the f-ing country - that I have a problem. There are plenty of intelligent opinions I don't share that I'm perfectly willing to discuss.

And saying I'm in an ideological bubble is a different type of idiotic opinion. I'm glad you enjoy it, because I'm a moderator in this forum and I'm about to require moderation for getting pissed off at you for thinking it's your job to scold me.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Nov 29 said:


> Okay, here's my last urination on the subject.
> 
> I haven't once had a problem with discussing something only because people disagree with me. That's what you don't seem to get.
> 
> ...



Its my job to voice my opinion in a civil manner. As it is yours...you know, or not!

And you're right- perhaps you require moderation. Saying someone's statement is idiotic is just another way to call someone an idiot. Slinging epithets around adds nothing to the logical force of anyone's position, and as an intelligent a person as you obviously are, I truly don't know what you don't get about that! It's the methodology of many who you despise- do you routinely adopt the tactics of those you find repulsive?

As to this ridiculous stylistic battle during which you've disallowed me to defuse the tension, which I tried to do with my statement that perhaps the world need different approaches (like, for example, yours and mine) - yep, then it gets fun for me because it's just so weird.  

Btw- if you find my positions or approaches so wrong- headed and my explorations idiotic- why bother participating in any thread I start? Not that your voice is ever unwelcome to me, because despite this claptrap I admire your brain, but really, why bother and why do I seem to bother you so much? I'm just another bozo on this bus, pal. We're all going to end this journey in the same place, everyone enjoys the ride in their own way. If I'm so off the mark, why not just ignore me?


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 29, 2014)

My political views are largely unchanged. They were centrist back in the '60's and centrist now. I was against the Vietnam War because it was so obviously wrong-headed and campaigned for McCarthy. but I thought the "Make Love, Not War" and "War is not the answer" sloganeering was sophomoric then and I still do. I also thought the "My country-lovei or leave it" folks were intellectually vapid and I still do.

And now I am equally appalled by the "Obama is a tyrant" and "Bush was Hitler" folks.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Nov 29 said:


> My political views are largely unchanged.



But where did they originate?


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 29, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 29 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Nov 29 said:
> 
> 
> > My political views are largely unchanged.
> ...



Hard to say. My Dad was what I would call an Eisenhower Republican and he liked Nixon until Watergate happened and he became disillusioned. He liked Clinton, hated both Bushes but really doesn't like Obama. He says that given the opportunity he would vote for Hillary. Go figure.

My mother was more of a Democrat but didn't get all that passionate about it.

I guess what I got from both of them is my deep distrust of extreme partisanship. But I think mostly I looked at the world around me as a teenager after JFK was killed and RFK was killed and MLK was killed and formed my own conclusions.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2014)

"All politics is local". Well, dunno about that, but politics tend to have origins and reasons.

In my dotage, I'm learning things I never would have been able to understand in any visceral way had the facts on the ground not changed. Example- my son joining the military, last thing I expected to happen EVAH. It has given me a little inside glimpse of military culture and thought through the lens of people I talk to on base, parent groups during deployments, generations of military families. The mindsets, the disappointments and benefits, the stoicism and pride of those who serve. The surprisingly (to me) high caliber of the young men and women in the current army, their commitment, their outlooks, the diversity of their politics.

Some of the people I've met have wildly different views than I do and some experiences that explain those views. I've found it educational, but it hasn't moved my needle much. It's certainly made me listen harder, and with a different filter.


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## Udo (Nov 29, 2014)

To USA citizens.

Do you believe that the USA in a true Democracy? I think it's a myth. You enjoy features central to democratic governance, such as regular elections, freedom of speech and association, etc. However, the essence of a True Democracy is missing.

A key example: People do not have free choice and equal opportunity to choose who represents them. You're presented with choices by wealthy political power brokers, driven by preferences of economic elites, stands of organized interest groups and lobbyists. Realistically, preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, non-significant impact on public policy, i.e. the USA should be called an Oligarchy rather than a Democracy. :wink: 

Some of those factors are present in other countries, to some extent, but their impact is severely curtailed through legislation. Unfortunately, because of the current power structure, I think it will be impossible to get the USA Congress to change the situation by amending the Constitution using Article 5.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 29, 2014)

Udo, the USA doesn't make claims to be a true democracy. The USA is by definition a Republic.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 29, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Sat Nov 29 said:


> Udo, the USA doesn't make claims to be a true democracy. The USA is by definition a Republic.



It is in fact a specific kind of Republic called a Representative Democracy.

https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Representative_democracy.html (https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve ... cracy.html)


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## NYC Composer (Nov 29, 2014)

Udo @ Sun Nov 30 said:


> To USA citizens.
> 
> Do you believe that the USA in a true Democracy? I think it's a myth. You enjoy features central to democratic governance, such as regular elections, freedom of speech and association, etc. However, the essence of a True Democracy is missing.
> 
> ...



That might make for an interesting thread of its own, but it's way O.T. In this one. Where did your political views originate, Udo, and how have they evolved?

Edit- i think this idea that politics come from nothing but the common sense and inherent wisdom that fortunate children are imbued with at birth is either complete fantasy, obvious logical fallacy or simple avoidance. I wonder why people post in threads where a question is asked that they prefer not to address.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 29, 2014)

Okay, now I'm posting as a moderator.

Larry, no I'm not calling you an idiot, nor am I insulting any individual personally. Insulting the entire Republican party is quite different. What you are doing is getting in my face to hassle me, and that is over.

If you feel the need to reply, or if you don't understand the distinction between heated argument and personal attacks like you're directing at me, send me a PM.

Do not continue this in this thread.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 30, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Nov 30 said:


> Okay, now I'm posting as a moderator.
> 
> Larry, no I'm not calling you an idiot, nor am I insulting any individual personally. Insulting the entire Republican party is quite different. What you are doing is getting in my face to hassle me, and that is over.
> 
> ...



Nick-I've been civil to you. If you wish to misuse your power as a moderator to quell my dissent in what is clearly a personal issue, please do what you feel you have to do. Otherwise, I'm completely open if you'd like to PM me.


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## AC986 (Nov 30, 2014)

Will you two 58 year olds stop acting like you're 12? There are young people here. What an example you're setting. Cheesus! :lol:


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## NYC Composer (Nov 30, 2014)

I'll have you know I'm WELL over 100 years old (sniff).


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## AC986 (Nov 30, 2014)

Now listen to an even older guy than you two boys. You're good boys and you have good ideas and what I admire most is how you stick to your political principles even when no other agrees or even cares. That shows a firm commitment. Something I have a lot of trouble with alas.

However, it also shows something else. Stubbornness. Hahaha!

This is an edict from the Holy Church of Rome!!!! o=< 

Oh hang on though! Hahahahah. You guys don't subscribe. Sorry about that. :oops:


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 30, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 29 said:


> TheUnfinished @ Sat Nov 29 said:
> 
> 
> > I was brought up in a conservative, Christian home. But have become a left-leaning atheist.
> ...


Apparently not. As I haven't often been introspective about where my 'moral compass' comes from.

I've always just striven to do the kind/compassionate thing. To give people the benefit of the doubt. To seek out a solution that helps the most people, and often the most vulnerable/put upon.

Life has, as it does for most people, given me good cause to not be kind, to be selfish, to do harm (and I'm sue their have been moments where I've been weak and succumbed). But, generally, I believe I have not waivered too much in my determination to be a 'good guy' and I see the rewards of trying to take that path in the closeness of my family, the delightful good friends I have, and the incredibly wonderful wife I have the great fortune to spend the rest of my life with.

Perhaps I have taken onboard the Christian values I was imbued with as a child, without the burden of having to believe in the religious aspect of it. There was certainly a community, both from the church and the council house area I gre up in, that seemed full of laughter, of people doing favours and rallying round.

I feel no political affiliation. I lean to the left, yes, but does politics anymore? I don't think so. I often find myself looking at the politics of the Scandinavian/Nordic countries and wondering how they're able to be grown up about it and we're not. Although a glimpse of Prime Minister's Questions should answer that rather quickly, I suppose.

Ultimately though, whatever your convictions, they should be about feeling better about yourself, and not be about feeling better than others.

And I've waffled on aimlessly for quite a while now.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 30, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Nov 30 said:


> Okay, now I'm posting as a moderator.
> 
> Larry, no I'm not calling you an idiot, nor am I insulting any individual personally. Insulting the entire Republican party is quite different. What you are doing is getting in my face to hassle me, and that is over.
> 
> ...


Actually Nick, you did insult someone personally. Me.
Right after NYC replied to my post, you wrote to him:
"Larry, you're such a great guy because you tolerate fools so gladly."

And in reference to other times, when you insult the entire Republican party and conservatives by calling them "stupid, greedy, etc.", do you really think that is not insulting Republicans and conservatives personally? You know there are Republicans and conservatives on this board, and you know who we are (all 3 of us). 

You can't hide behind the flimsy defense of "Oh, it's OK because I didn't insult anyone personally". It doesn't hold water.

What if I found out that you are white, then I said "All whites are dumb idiotic crackers" - are you telling me that I did not insult you personally?


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 30, 2014)

I must stand up for NYC and say that he has indeed been civil to Nick. He has simply been trying to get Nick to tone down his ranting.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 30, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Sun Nov 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 29 said:
> 
> 
> > TheUnfinished @ Sat Nov 29 said:
> ...


I'm glad to read this post of yours, because I misunderstood part of your first post, big time. 
I like it that you strive to maintain the compassion and kindness you found in your early Christian-based communities. There's not enough kindness and compassion in the world. And that my friend, is under-statement of the year
I don't understand why you consider believing in God a "burden". I find it my biggest freedom - it is a burden off my shoulders. But I guess that's for another topic!


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 30, 2014)

One's political views has _nothing_ to do with how we treat others. Progressives (Liberals), Centrists, and Conservatives ALL have a moral obligation to treat others as they wish to be treated and I have seen no evidence in my 66 years on this earth that any of those political philosophies has more or fewer subscribers who try to do precisely that.


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## JonFairhurst (Nov 30, 2014)

I still remember my first election. There were propositions related to funding roads and schools. I voted for both of them because they made sense. I had just entered university and would not have been able to without financial aid (matched with income from part time jobs.) And I liked driving, recognizing that one needs good roads to drive. It seemed like common sense back then and it still does.

Based on that, I have no sympathy for the anti-tax crowd. Anti-tax is anti-investment.

Socially, I've always been an inclusive sort. I don't like bullying. The social (and militaristic) conservative movement feels so "Jack Merridew" (Lord of the Flies) to me.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 30, 2014)

JonFairhurst @ Sun Nov 30 said:


> Socially, I've always been an inclusive sort. I don't like bullying. The social (and militaristic) conservative movement feels so "Jack Merridew" (Lord of the Flies) to me.


It's funny how people can have such opposite perspectives on things.


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 30, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Sun Nov 30 said:


> I'm glad to read this post of yours, because I misunderstood part of your first post, big time.
> I like it that you strive to maintain the compassion and kindness you found in your early Christian-based communities. There's not enough kindness and compassion in the world. And that my friend, is under-statement of the year
> I don't understand why you consider believing in God a "burden". I find it my biggest freedom - it is a burden off my shoulders. But I guess that's for another topic!


Well, perhaps not 'belief in a god' as a burden (aside from the fact that obviously I don't believe any such deity exists), more the imposition and inflexibility some seek (for themselves or to put upon others) in religion, organised or otherwise.

For me, what I have learned about my Christian upbringing is mainly that I was brought up by, and around, nice people. They weren't nice because they were Christian, but because they were nice people, they took a firm grip of the nice stuff they saw in Christianity.

Good people of religion almost always believe in a good god, or gods. Horrible people tend to believe in a fairly horrible version of god. Personally, this tells me a lot, about both people and 'god'.

The moral compass I find myself reasonably content with will not have been influenced by the religiousness of those people, but the goodness of them. That the goodness was expressed through a particular religious belief is neither here nor there to me. If it worked for them, great. 

I don't trust or mistrust anyone for holding religious beliefs any more or less than those without such beliefs, I merely disagree with those beliefs. They are rarely the whole of the person anyway, in my experience.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 30, 2014)

I knew I was opening up a can of worms, so let me say this.

Accusing a forum member (me) pointedly and repeatedly of refusing to listen to all opposing points of view, then repeating that some more for good measure...that's a personal attack. It doesn't matter what anyone's position is and it doesn't matter how politely he puts it; the point is that it's just belligerent.

If someone wants to tear into any political issue, party, or whatever...that's perfectly fine. Anyone is welcome to say all Democrats are abortion-loving socialists who want to take money away from hard working people and give it to lazy people. If I want to say the Republican party is ruining the country and its base is stupid people, that's my right too.

Heated discussion, yes. Hassling an individual, no.

And to clarify, there's a big difference between using "tolerate fools gladly" as a generic argument and calling Michael personally a fool (which I didn't and I apologize if it sounded like I did).

I'd appreciate it if people would not reply, call me childish or anything similarly provocative, and just let this go.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 30, 2014)

The equating of politics, religion and general morality probably IS another discussion, but it seems to have spiced this one. As an agnostic, I can definitely say that the perception of the moral burden to "do the right thing" certainly crosses the line between the secular and the non- secular.

Psychological studies suggest that personalities are formed betwwen the ages of two and five. Apparently, the consensus is that politics take longer to form. Yet how many here (of an age) have really had any radical shifting of views since, say, their early 20s? Not I, said the apostate Jew and socio- capitalist liberal....but my tolerance level has gone up dramatically.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 30, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 30 said:


> Yet how many here (of an age) have realky had any rafical shifting of views since, say, their early 20s? Not I, said the apostate Jew and socio- capitalist liberal....but my tolerance level has gone up dramatically.



I'm 47, and since my early 20s, I have changed my views on the following:

(1) I have become anti-death penalty
(2) I no longer trust the government (I am not an anarchist, but I do believe that the majority of politicians only have their own best interests at heart, not the interests of those they serve, and there for, I do not trust the government)


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 30, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 30 said:


> The equating of politics, religion and general morality probably IS another discussion, but it seems to have spiced this one. As an agnostic, I can definitely say that the perception of the moral burden to "do the right thing" certainly crosses the line between the secular and the non- secular.
> 
> Psychological studies suggest that personalities are formed betwwen the ages of two and five. Apparently, the consensus is that politics take longer and take linger to form. Yet how many here (of an age) have realky had any rafical shifting of views since, say, their early 20s? Not I, said the apostate Jew and socio- capitalist liberal....but my tolerance level has gone up dramatically.



Well there are certainly high profile guys who went from Liberal to Conservative, Dennis Prager, Ronald Reagan, and David Horowitz just to mention a few but I cannot think of any that went from Conservative to Liberal. Can anyone else?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 30, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Nov 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 30 said:
> 
> 
> > The equating of politics, religion and general morality probably IS another discussion, but it seems to have spiced this one. As an agnostic, I can definitely say that the perception of the moral burden to "do the right thing" certainly crosses the line between the secular and the non- secular.
> ...



David Frum and Andrew Sullivan have not changed their entire philosophies but have leaned much farther left, and that's just from watching Bill Maher's show.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 30, 2014)

> Well there are certainly high profile guys who went from Liberal to Conservative, Dennis Prager, Ronald Reagan, and David Horowitz just to mention a few but I cannot think of any that went from Conservative to Liberal. Can anyone else?



Ariana Huffington


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## NYC Composer (Nov 30, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Sun Nov 30 said:


> JonFairhurst @ Sun Nov 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Socially, I've always been an inclusive sort. I don't like bullying. The social (and militaristic) conservative movement feels so "Jack Merridew" (Lord of the Flies) to me.
> ...



Yet even within those opposing views there is usually SOME sort of common ground...which is why exploring why people feel the way they feel is illuminating and occasionally productive for me.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 30, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 30 said:


> Michael K. Bain @ Sun Nov 30 said:
> 
> 
> > JonFairhurst @ Sun Nov 30 said:
> ...



Well, I do find that many, of if not most, liberals are anti-death penalty, like I am.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 30, 2014)

Michael K. Bain @ Sun Nov 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Michael K. Bain @ Sun Nov 30 said:
> ...



Most people are also against "government waste"-however their views vary wildly on what exactly is wasteful and which parts of government as it stands would be better administered by private industry-but that too is a whole 'nother thread.


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