# Is $5000. for a feature film acceptable?



## MATAHARI (May 24, 2011)

Hi friends,

Is 5 grand acceptable for scoring a feature film? 

It has some well known hollywood tv actors and a big network tv show crew. But a VERY micro budget.

What should I ask for besides holding onto my Publishing. I have never worked for this low of a fee. But times are tough.. so I trying to find away to justify and do this project as it will be nice for possible future work.

any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanx

Hayley


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## midphase (May 24, 2011)

What's their definition of a VERY micro budget?


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## José Herring (May 24, 2011)

It's pretty low. But, if that's all they are offering then I wouldn't worry about the money too much. Just make sure it's a project that you really want to do. With a budget like that you'll run out of money long before the project is done, and unless it's something that your heart is really into and you think it has potential as a project, then you'll be headed for a long miserable slog.

Also, stars these days hardly matter. I just heard of a film with really big stars that is dying and miserable death on Netflix. No royaltees for the composer (who offered to do it for free, sucker!) Complete waste of time really and his mentality was that it was going to be a big hit because it had a big star in it. I guess he never noticed the fact that the film sucked. Oh, and to rub it in even worse, the next time they had a film he bid on it and was undercut by some other sucker. So they weren't even loyal.

So taking that into consideration, decide not on the money which is low, but on the potential of the project and connections to film makers. Are these guys going to work again? Are they good people? Will they hire you again when they have real money or will they be tossing you in a ditch in favor of some more established composer? You know ask yourself these questions. Is there any future in this project for you? 

But, if you're doing it only for the money. Then you'll end up pretty depressed when in a month the money has run dry and they're still asking for changes and more music. Not that I've ever experienced that or anything. No, not me. 


best,

Jose


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## MATAHARI (May 24, 2011)

their definition of Micro budget is 300 grand total.

those are good points Jose!

all good stuff to think about!

the good thing is we will only have a month to do it in, No live players, electronic score.


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## SvK (May 24, 2011)

scoring a Video Game is 1000$ a minute.

SvK


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## José Herring (May 24, 2011)

SvK @ Tue May 24 said:


> scoring a Video Game is 1000$ a minute.
> 
> SvK



True. But, the money doesn't keep on rolling in like it does in film. I'm still getting monies from work I did 10 years ago. So that's something to consider too. Does the film have a potential to play on cable, tv foreign markets, that type of thing. Though if you're living on the royalty check you'll be hurting. Sometimes it's good and sometimes you want to jump out of a window. Not that I've done that either--living check to check. Not me.


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## germancomponist (May 24, 2011)

I am with Jose.

How much money would you spend for advertisting?

If this film will make attention to you as a composer (if its worth it), then do it.


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## Peter Alexander (May 24, 2011)

Film Music Institute now has some online classes dealing some of these subjects. You should check these out.

When I got to L.A. (don't ask when), a composer for a one-hour TV episode got a composing FEE of $25,000 which could also be the fee for a made-for-tv movie, or better depending on the composer. 

So what you've been offered is 80% less and you're doing all the work.


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## Guy Bacos (May 24, 2011)

Can't you ask for a bonus fee if it brings in revenues beyond x amount? This way you won't feel so bad if it does well at the box office and the producer is cashing in with your music behind.


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## mverta (May 24, 2011)

My advice on Getting Paid.

_Mike

P.S. Found the money for the well-known TV actors and the crew and the food, didn't they? Know why the budget's $5k? Because Fuck you, that's why. Not because they don't have the money.


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## robibla (May 24, 2011)

ROFL. It sucks that music is always the thing they skimp on.


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## mverta (May 24, 2011)

'Cause we let them. No solidarity, no union, no balls?... whatever the reason, we only get what we accept, not what we deserve.

_Mike


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## robibla (May 24, 2011)

The problem is that when you're just starting out you'll do almost anything to get exposure - People tend to enjoy abusing that fact. If you try and push it there's the possibility they'll just go to the next guy who will happily do it, even though he'll have to eat baked beans for the next month.

P.S. I would try and reason with them somehow, $5000 is pretty weak :(


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## mverta (May 24, 2011)

Yeah I address that reality between that podcast and my "training vs. working" podcast. The chink in the armor there, you'll notice, is that the hiring party apparently makes no distinction between the "I'll do anything" newbie, and the seasoned veteran. And, sadly, that may be true. But if they've got well-known actors and crew budget, then you're back to the stark question of: why do they value me so little? And swallowing that is a personal choice with no "right" or "wrong," but also with stark consequences you have to live with.


_Mike


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## IFM (May 24, 2011)

This wouldn't happen to be an HBO pilot? It sounds awfully familiar and we (my partner on this project and I) told them to piss off for such a low ball offer (the company making the film not HBO). Never mind that they wanted 100% of the rights...ya sure buddy.

Chris


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## Farkle (May 24, 2011)

Dragonwind @ Tue May 24 said:


> This wouldn't happen to be an HBO pilot? It sounds awfully familiar and we (my partner on this project and I) told them to piss off for such a low ball offer (the company making the film not HBO). Never mind that they wanted 100% of the rights...ya sure buddy.
> 
> Chris



Oh, preach ON, brotha man!! Sorry to let this degenerate into a "here's my horror story" post... but, it's midnight, and I've been working on audio for 12 hours, and I'm loopy. 

So, (not a bragging thing, but an indication of "seasoned veteran"), I have an Emmy award for orchestration and MIDI orchestrations for the Nickelodeon show "the Wonderpets". I've done a feature film, and had my music placed on all three major networks. I'm not a "newbie".

I got a call (3 years ago) from A&E, who needed a replacement composer (their go-to had gotten the flu). 

1 week turnaround. 46 minutes of music (full one hour documentary). "drop in" quality (meaning, little to no mixing, production ready). 

3 thousand dollars.

I asked for publisher rights. no deal.

I asked for right of first refusal on the impending series. No deal.

I asked for a personal recommendation to the music supervisor, and a contact email. No deal.

I talked it over with my wife, and my writing partner. We asked for an additional 7 days... WHICH THEY GRANTED (lesson!! It's never as "rush" as they want you to believe)...

Then, when we called them to accept the contract, 1 day later, they had already hit up a library for music editor for tracks.

All that stress, all that "abuse" for nothing.

What can we learn from this? Mike Verta's excellent observation; you're going to walk away from a shitload of "offers"; and you need to learn how to quickly say no, and also, to understand where you are in your career, and value yourself.

My rant/advice/great story. 

Mike


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## bdr (May 24, 2011)

mverta @ Wed May 25 said:


> My advice on Getting Paid.
> 
> _Mike
> 
> P.S. Found the money for the well-known TV actors and the crew and the food, didn't they? Know why the budget's $5k? Because f#@k you, that's why. Not because they don't have the money.



Absolutely agree Mike.

As Jeff Rona once said, they have money, they just don't want to give it to you.

And I've never, ever heard of anyone getting any payment on a deferred deal.


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## mverta (May 24, 2011)

Worth - That _is_ a great story. You know, for all the wrong reasons, right? So typical...

_Mike


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## Guy Bacos (May 24, 2011)

mverta @ Tue May 24 said:


> My advice on Getting Paid.
> 
> _Mike
> 
> P.S. Found the money for the well-known TV actors and the crew and the food, didn't they? Know why the budget's $5k? Because f#@k you, that's why. Not because they don't have the money.



Mike, maybe that's true, but you don't know that for a fact. Maybe the actors are also are taking a pay cut in this project to be part of it. I've had a situation like this. I mean he also don't want to loose 5K by being too demanding.


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## mverta (May 24, 2011)

Yeah, I do, actually Guy. I've been in this town 20 years; seen it all. Of which, incidentally, there are only about 3 flavors. They've got money for SAG actors, union crew, insurance rider, payroll... this is just normal in-town bullcrap.


_Mike


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## Guy Bacos (May 24, 2011)

No, I mean the details of his movie. My post was related to that.


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## Guy Bacos (May 24, 2011)

I would also think that if you don't have a track record, it's hard to be too demanding, but if you do and you feel they want you, I wouldn't hesitate to ask more. Mike, maybe you became more aggressive in negotiating once you started to have a track record, no?


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## mverta (May 24, 2011)

You don't get through these circumstances based on your track record, Guy. That's the sort of quaint, poetic notion that a lot of guys starting out bank on: that somehow, there's a system of justice and reward based on experience or talent waiting out there; that the inexperienced make little money, and the experienced get more.

There is no such system. And the sooner you realize that, the sooner you can begin actually working the system successfully. Hollywood is the physical manifestation of a principle in marketing, advertising, and economics: there is no value, there is merely perceived value. It's a sword that cuts both ways - for you, or against you. It just depends on how you wield it. In the absence of any absolute value; in a town full of posers and phonies, you are what you boldly declare you are. You are worth what you steadfastly, unflinchingly say you are. First one who blinks loses. And if you accept what some other phony says you're not; what you're not worth, then that's on you. The fuel that drives this town is insecurity. That can work to your great advantage. All power is illusory.


_Mike


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## midphase (May 24, 2011)

I just directed a very low budget short this week-end. I got actors who were in Thor, American Beauty, Deadwood, Cold Case, CSI...and dept heads from major TV shows and films. I can honestly tell you that it's really not always about "the money is there...we just don't want to give it to the composer." People work on projects for all sorts of different reasons, and if they view the film as something that will benefit in some way shape or form, they'll participate even if the money is crappy.

Having said that...there are a number of douchebags in the biz who will nickel and dime everyone for their own personal gain. In case you don't know this, a film's Producer will often contract to keep a portion of any "leftover" money. So for instance, if you're producing a film for $1mil, and you manage to bring it in for $800k, you might just have gotten yourself a $20k bonus on top of what you're making. 

I think what it really comes down to is that you have to use your own judgement and make a determination of whether or not this film will benefit your career more than the $5k they're wanting to pay you. One of the best ways that composers can protect themselves from being taken advantage of is to develop the ability to critically and realistically evaluate a film's potential. It's really not that difficult and you can compare it to other films out there to see how it stacks up.

What really kills it for us composers is when we accept crap pay to work on crap projects which are destined to go nowhere and be forgotten or made fun of...let's stop that right now!


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## mverta (May 24, 2011)

And how'd you get around SAG?


_Mike


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## Mike Greene (May 24, 2011)

mverta @ Tue May 24 said:


> And how'd you get around SAG?


My guess is: "By not telling them." :mrgreen: 

You might be surprised how much non-union work occurs in this town with union talent. Heck, I had an Oscar winning actor (supporting actor, actually) here once doing a non-union gig. It has to fairly low profile, of course, but my experience is that talent will usually play ball if they like you.


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## mverta (May 24, 2011)

Yeah, I'm aware of that, but okay, that's my point. If you're actually doing dark dates, if you're doing no/low, then you're not talking about the situation the OP is - a $300k union gig with distribution. I mean, yeah, of course some dude is making a movie on the sly with $40. Yeah, okay, then they don't have the money, no shit 


_Mike


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## Mike Greene (May 24, 2011)

mverta @ Tue May 24 said:


> Yeah, I'm aware of that, but okay, this is my point. If you're actually doing dark dates, if you're doing no/low, then you're not talking about the situation the OP is - a $300k union gig with distribution. I mean, yeah, of course some dude is making a movie on the sly with $40. Yeah, okay, then they don't have the money, no [email protected]#t


I'd be really surprised if a $300k feature is a union gig. That's a pretty low budget. It's not _"all my friends are pitching in for free,"_ but it's still a very low budget.

I'd also be very surprised if they already have distribution. This sounds like a bunch of friends (crew) who work together on some TV show getting together and making a film, hoping it flies. They have friends with decent (but not great) acting credits, so it sounds like a bigger project than it really is. Projects like these happen all the time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they can't come up with more than $5k. But I'm also not saying that they _can_ either. With a budget that low, there are already a lot of other people besides the composer who are taking below their normal rate.


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## mverta (May 24, 2011)

Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on your argument here, Mike.  You're a good Devil's advocate, but I know that you know that I know that you know that I know. :mrgreen: 300 grand and the dude is getting $5k? We've seen that bullcrap tons. And that's what it is. That's not a pay cut, that's a "we never intended on money for you to start with, bitch." I've produced plenty of stuff at that budget level, and that's an f-you no matter how you cut the numbers!


_Mike


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## midphase (May 24, 2011)

mverta @ Tue May 24 said:


> And how'd you get around SAG?
> 
> 
> _Mike



Deferred.


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## mverta (May 24, 2011)

Exactly. 


I mean, $5k is 1.6% of 300. 1.6% of the budget! For the freakin' MUSIC! Music guy doesn't show up, you might as well leave the freakin' lens cap on, and that's not an f-you?


_Mike


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## midphase (May 24, 2011)

I think on a $300k film they should be able to do about $10k for music at least...not great but it's something.

Once again, I go back to -- how good is the film?


BTW...found this today...loosely related:

http://m.deadline.com/2011/05/visual-effects-society-exec-director-eric-roth-slams-movie-industry-for-terrible-treatment/ (http://m.deadline.com/2011/05/visual-ef ... treatment/)


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## Mike Greene (May 24, 2011)

I'm not saying $5k is fair. But I'm also not saying it's not. I really don't know the full situation here, so who knows if Hayley (who I'm pretty sure is a girl, by the way) should take the gig or not.

My only point is that it's entirely possible that the principles, including the SAG and AFTRA actors, are working for free. (Hence my _"By not telling SAG"_ joke.) And it's likely that the crew is working either for free or for a low rate. It's completely possible (but again, I don't really know) that $5k is proportionate to what everyone else is getting and this is not a f-you deal at all.

Unless a film is two actors talking for 90 minutes in a single room, it's very easy to burn through $300k on absolute essentials. Maybe not *absolute* essentials by amateur hour standards, but assuming they want to actually *sell* this film, it needs to look good, and there are certain unavoidable costs that a film of professional standards is going to have. Locations, lights, catering, the list is long.

But again, whether $5k is worth it to Hayley is her call. Personally, I wouldn't do it for that. But I'm not hatin' if someone else would.


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## mverta (May 24, 2011)

As I've said ad infinitum, there is no "right" amount of money. But if you accept getting 1.6% of a project budget, you certainly have no right to complain, that's all. You're being under-valued. And you're the only one who can change that.


_Mike


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## MATAHARI (May 24, 2011)

_"I'd be really surprised if a $300k feature is a union gig. That's a pretty low budget. It's not "all my friends are pitching in for free," but it's still a very low budget. 

I'd also be very surprised if they already have distribution. This sounds like a bunch of friends (crew) who work together on some TV show getting together and making a film, hoping it flies. They have friends with decent (but not great) acting credits, so it sounds like a bigger project than it really is. Projects like these happen all the time. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they can't come up with more than $5k. But I'm also not saying that they can either. With a budget that low, there are already a lot of other people besides the composer who are taking below their normal rate."_

Bingo! this is what is happening.. 300k and all the friends ( Tv show crews) are pitching in for a cheap. All actors are on differed pay. Basically we are all Tv people trying to step up our game into features. Even the producers. 

5K is VERY low... but will be good exposure and a good brain exercise for my mind, that has done one too many commercials. I score mostly advertising.

I will see if I can get them higher.

this is a very interesting thread and I love the feedback.... and yes ... I am a GURL.


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## robibla (May 24, 2011)

Well it sounds like one of those projects that everybody is doing for peanuts. A bit higher would be nicer but it could be a good opportunity for you! Good luck either way!


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## MATAHARI (May 25, 2011)

midphase... great link! thanx


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## midphase (May 25, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Tue May 24 said:


> it's very easy to burn through $300k on absolute essentials.



I gotta say that if I were to open up a side business to make some cash....I'd be a rental house. Those guys always get paid, rental costs are never questioned or low balled. C-stands, lights, bounce cards...even freaking clothespins! The stuff that always gets money on a film no matter how low the budget is, are the tangible things like food, equipment rentals and media.

On a $300k film, I would guess that all actors probably got a SAG minimum of $100-250 a day, key grips and electric probably got more than that, and so did the sound mixer. Director probably pulled in about $25k, Producers probably another $25k each, sound designer is probably getting $18k to $20k, DP probably got $10k, another $10k to permits, wardrobe, make up person probably $5k each, $15k for an editor, $10k for color grading, deliverables and E&O insurance are probably a solid $30k, and the rest is food, transportation, misc crew costs, props and rentals.

Based on those figures, I'd say that $5k still feels anemic...I would push for $10k (assuming the film is worth it).


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## MATAHARI (May 25, 2011)

yea right about opening a rental house!

Thanx for that breakdown...

script is not bad...the director is a dp.. so it looks real nice. 

its not cut yet. 

But I will ask for more and see what happens.

thanx!


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## Mr. Anxiety (May 25, 2011)

Do us composers all a favor and ask for more, 10k at least. The more times people accept too little for their services, the more our fees will suffer. You are worth more than $5k!

Mr A


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## IFM (May 25, 2011)

Absolutely ask for 10K and the rights! Tell them you are worth every penny and that you are doing them a favor at that level.


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## tls (May 25, 2011)

Hehe, this sounds like a good plan!

In my world, working for less than what I think my time (and product) are worth just makes things so discouraging. For instance, why would I want to spend that extra time tweaking everything when the money doesn't cover it? Well, I won't. I ask for a sum. Too bad for the other part if they can't agree. Period.

Btw., I've only scored short films so far, but I would say that the duration of the film has much to say. I haven't seen this mentioned here at all? Wouldn't you charge almost the double for a 160 min feature with respect to a 80 min feature? I would, simply because it takes approximately 45% longer time.


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## Guy Bacos (May 25, 2011)

mverta @ Wed May 25 said:


> You don't get through these circumstances based on your track record, Guy. That's the sort of quaint, poetic notion that a lot of guys starting out bank on: that somehow, there's a system of justice and reward based on experience or talent waiting out there; that the inexperienced make little money, and the experienced get more.
> 
> There is no such system. And the sooner you realize that, the sooner you can begin actually working the system successfully. Hollywood is the physical manifestation of a principle in marketing, advertising, and economics: there is no value, there is merely perceived value. It's a sword that cuts both ways - for you, or against you. It just depends on how you wield it. In the absence of any absolute value; in a town full of posers and phonies, you are what you boldly declare you are. You are worth what you steadfastly, unflinchingly say you are. First one who blinks loses. And if you accept what some other phony says you're not; what you're not worth, then that's on you. The fuel that drives this town is insecurity. That can work to your great advantage. All power is illusory.
> 
> ...



I'm sure you know what you're talking about from experience, so I won't argue that.


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## xenno (May 25, 2011)

Good Topic. I have always been caught up in this too.
I work at a film studio, where we make low budget films that get distribution.
(Mostly overseas)

I guess the big number these days is 300k.
If you look at AFM, a lot of producers are working with this number for low budget, since they know they can actually make money off of it. i.e., if you make a movie for under 1mil, then you are most likely going to make from 400k - 600k, total. So it only makes sense to make a feature for 300k, to play it safe.

Some of our films have been shot for 200k, but yes everyone is working for less and all the gear is owned by the studio, so there isn't a lot of gear rental, other than say a fischer dolly or a crane.

What is nice is that I do all of the music for the films, no one else gets a shot unless I play music editor or pass something off. The downside is that I'm constantly busy doing music for less, until we can get some of our recent films out the door andattract better clients.

I would say, the best bet is to always push a little. It shows confidence in your music and your business skills. If anything go for 8k, but be prepared to get 5k. In a lot of producers minds, music can be done with some of the music libraries out there, very easily and sometimes sound better. Honestly, when I was in film school 10 years ago, music libraries always sucked and I was always glad about that. Now days, it is way too easy to go to a site like videocopilot.com and grab their music bundle and make your projects work, for around $100. The more bundles like this are out there, the more low budget films will be sacrificed to the same cheesy canned music. This means less opportunities for musicians to get their foot in the door, since low budgets can be easy to get into.

Think of it this way, producers of budget movies like that, know that no one is going to care about the music, since more than likely, the movie is going to be sub par, even with decent talent, so they ain't gonna care about what music is in there.

Definitely try to get a little more, but in the end, realize that, to the producer, 5k for 300k is a good deal.


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## xenno (May 25, 2011)

BTW, I'm not disagreeing with Mike or anyone else on here. My main point is that, sometimes you have to use gigs as ways to move up the ladder. For me, I've been doing music for a while, but I'm really at the beginning of my career; so it's important to make wise choices and try to get as much decent work as possible, but for more seasoned folks, it is a lot easier to ask for more.

On the flip side, I seriously doubt it is a SAG film. Even in Colorado, the last SAG film I was on went upwards of 800k, they even used all of our gear and got in really cheap rates. I do know that some actors prefer to work more consistently than be on a SAG film every once in a while; so it's not rare to see some, just below the line types to end up in low budgets.

All the same, it depends on your worth. For me, it is only to build my career, create connections and help build up our studio name; but for others, it depends on what you have going on.


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## Mike Greene (May 25, 2011)

midphase @ Tue May 24 said:


> On a $300k film, I would guess that all actors probably got a SAG minimum of $100-250 a day, key grips and electric probably got more than that, and so did the sound mixer. Director probably pulled in about $25k, Producers probably another $25k each, sound designer is probably getting $18k to $20k, DP probably got $10k, another $10k to permits, wardrobe, make up person probably $5k each, $15k for an editor, $10k for color grading, deliverables and E&O insurance are probably a solid $30k, and the rest is food, transportation, misc crew costs, props and rentals.


That breakdown makes sense if this a typical _"Crank it out cheap and make a small profit"_ flick. But I get the impression that this is a stepping stone project for a bunch of TV people who want to get into film. My guess is that the director, producers and actors are all working for free. In fact, I'm willing to bet that _they're_ the ones who ponied up the $300k.

Since this is a showcase kind of situation, where TV people are trying to prove they can do films, then most of the $300k probably went into the film, rather than personal salaries. I'll bet they did extra dolly and crane shots and all sorts of other pricey things to make their film *not* look like a bunch of TV people did it. Otherwise, what's the point? Their film would look like all the other micro-budget flicks, in which case they've wasted their time. (Although I suppose they could still make a tidy profit *if* they can sell it. But I don't think that's the motivation here.)

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree that Hayley should try to get at least $10k. I'm just saying that she has to be prepared for the possibility that they truly can't go that high. In which case she's in the same boat as the other principles in that this isn't a "gig" so much as it's a stepping stone.


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## Mike Greene (May 25, 2011)

One other thing: If you do take this gig, then make sure you absolutely dazzle them. If anything is at all mediocre with the music, then all you've done is proved to them that if they get a "real" film later, then you're not the one to hire.

I had a friend make this mistake. He got hired for a golden opportunity gig, but it was low budget, so he didn't go the extra mile with hiring real players or anything like that. And that's exactly how the score sounded. Good . . . not great. Which means he basically wasted his time, since he blew his opportunity to show them he could compose with the big boys.


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## midphase (May 25, 2011)

I kinda disagree on the whole music library dark cloud for films. Have you ever tried to score an entire film with nothing but music library tracks? It's a bitch and consumes an enormous amount of editorial time which needs to be accounted for somewhat. It's an additional problem for production to sort out, and not unlike trying to make an entire movie out of stock footage.

I have done a score like that (i.e. editing pre-existing tracks), it was all my personal library which meant all the tracks were derived from the same instruments/sample libraries, generally in the same key, and sounding fairly cohesive since it was from the same composer...and yet it turned into a bloody mess, I wish I could erase that credit from my IMDB list!


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## Mike Greene (May 25, 2011)

Funny, I've done the same thing you describe in your second paragraph (although fortunately not for an entire film. Yikes!) It was surprisingly difficult, _even with my own stuff!_

I think most of my clients are fully aware of music libraries, and even though there's some great stuff on them, these clients don't want to go that route because (A) it's WAY more work than you think to search and then edit to fit, and (B) there are always a few things that just aren't quite right.


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## mverta (May 25, 2011)

You guys are missing the point, because you're hung up on the numbers, instead of the value. The problem with being a composer isn't the money, it's the valuation. Dedicating 1.6% of the budget to the aspect of production which essentially carries the heart of the film is absurd. Music gets top-of-show credit, but bottom-of-the-list valuation.

There was never such a thing as silent film. There was always someone playing organ or piano. As long as you had the music, dialog and sound were not necessary to convey the emotion to the audience, and the experience was powerful enough to catapult film into what is still a primary form of storytelling entertainment more than 100 years later.


Directors and producers will spend money in places which make little appreciable impact on the quality of the drama and impact on the film, when music's ROI is far greater. I can't even count the number of vfx shots I've been asked to do on shows, with upwards of $100k per shot, where a good cue could've said it all, and more effectively. Lots of money is blown in a multitude of places because they are valued more. The money itself is not the issue.

My recommendation to producers has always been: the lower the budget, the more you should spend on music. It can create sweeping grandness in shots where you might otherwise splurge on a crane. It can create epic gravitas in an intimate frame.

The "Binary Sunset" shot from Star Wars encapsulates an entire character's motivation, a central theme for the movie, and is one of the most iconic images in film history. It's a guy looking at a sunset. That's the value of music. Watch a Spielberg film and realize why they're never close to the most expensive films - discover why he deliberately limits his fx shot count; why he lingers on edit moments... he values the music.



Part of our job is to demand valuation, because if you wait for it, you'll wait forever. It is easier to sell that when what you're selling is the real deal, but either way, you must acknowledge that there is a completely criminal mismatch in valuation you're facing. The lead actor gets $20 million, but if the music doesn't do it's job, he just looks like a guy playing dress-up making mean faces in a Batman costume. 


1.6% for music's contribution is a fuck-you whether the budget is $3 or $3mil., and if you decide to accept that sort of disrespect, you will A) have nothing to complain about and B) still have to demand it later, anyway, putting you back at square one. Nobody is just going to magically give you what you're "worth" on a bigger show, just because, like, you're "so good." 

You never get what you deserve, only what you accept. I'm not trying to brag, but I live a comfortable life and don't have to work another day in my life if I don't want to, and it's for that reason, and that reason alone. I started out broke-ass poor like anyone else, with no friends, family, or contacts in the business. But I realized right away that the whole town was completely full of shit; a shell game of illusory valuation.

Get great at what you do, tell them your price, and stand by it. Those who value you - who are the only ones worth an f in the first place - will find it. The rest who don't value you; who would just as soon replace your ass with a freakin' library track?! Who wants to work for people like that? For the credit? The credit doesn't raise your money! Only YOU do!


The surest sign of slavery is to have a price and be bought for it.




_Mike


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## Mike Greene (May 25, 2011)

I see the conversation going something like this:

*Mike Verta - * "1.6%???? That's an outrage . . . I'm no slave . . . emotional value of music . . . epic gravitas . . . Steven Spielberg . . . "

*Producer - * "Okaaayyyy . . . so do you want the five thousand bucks or not?"

:mrgreen: 

Don't get me wrong, it's a great "ivory tower" argument. But color me skeptical that you've really made so much money in composing using this "decide what I'm worth and settle for nothing less" philosophy that you can really retire.


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## whinecellar (May 25, 2011)

Once again, a Mike Verta post I'm adding to my collection. If you don't write a book Mike, I'm gonna find the time someday to compile your posts and do it for you


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## mverta (May 25, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Wed May 25 said:


> Don't get me wrong, it's a great "ivory tower" argument. But color me skeptical that you've really made so much money in composing using this "decide what I'm worth and settle for nothing less" philosophy that you can really retire.



Technically it's a "I was sick of eating ketchup packets, and inherently skeptical of the people I met in the business, so I called bullshit," argument, but I'll take your skepticism as a compliment. 

You might want to consider, though: what if it's true? What if I'm right? What if it isn't the impossible pipe dream you suggest? 


_Mike

P.S. Whine: You flatter me  As long as somebody finds this stuff useful, I'm good.


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## MATAHARI (May 25, 2011)

I think everyone here is making sense.

I think the big problem is the devaluation of music across the board. I have been scoring advertising for the past 10 years and Ive watched my budgets go from 80 grand for a 4 spot package to 2 grand??!! WTF?!!!!

The fact that the music industry has tanked has put every musician and band, big and small, starving for work, is another factor. The ad agency and producer can get free music from people trying to become film and tv composers. I have lost jobs to Dj's who are messing around with garage band!

I have also taken some of those beyond low budget jobs out of desperation and needing to pay bills... and have been utterly surprised when i later on made 50 grand in Bmi royaltys.

its a crazy world for us composers....but one thing I do know is that money is not always the valuation of our worth. I know Im good. My clients no im good. these producers on this film know they cant afford me.

Im looking to have a good time making music and keep a roof over my head... its not easy as a woman composer either!

just my 3 cents


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## Ed (May 25, 2011)

MATAHARI @ Wed May 25 said:


> and have been utterly surprised when i later on made 50 grand in Bmi royaltys.



Lets just hope royalties doesn't disappear too!


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## midphase (May 25, 2011)

I don't want to sound pompous...but I do have to say that directing even a small project like mine has given me some really useful perspective of what it's like on the "other side" of the table.

I often compare composer to cinematographers, we both work in subtle ways and if we've done our jobs right, the audience doesn't notice our work but definitely "feels" it.

As I was putting together my team, there was a DP who I wanted who was considerably more expensive and to top it off, lived out of town which would require travel costs. I really struggled with the decision but ultimately decided against him for several reasons, but the primary one was not his fee (as it turns out, we ended up spending more in a roundabout way with the DP that we went with...long story).

So yeah, I'm with Mike V on many things that he says, including the fact that if the production wants you bad enough, they'll figure out a way to make it work money-wise. On the other hand, I do think there's a breaking point where the money is simply not there. I'm not saying it's fair, but as (technically) an executive producer of my short, I have to draw the spending line somewhere and decide against spending more money on someone simply because we can't afford it.

It's becoming more and more weirdly obvious to me that working in this industry (especially in certain capacities) is becoming more of a luxury than a viable career choice. Essentially if your household doesn't have additional revenue streams, or if you're not born wealthy...you're simply not going to survive doing this very long.

Like most pros around here, I've had great financial years, and I've had very crappy ones. Since the market crash things have been picking up a bit, but I don't see them going back to pre-2008 levels.

What Mike V advises is only feasible if one is ready to walk out of the deal. That is the ONLY way that it works! 

Let me repeat that once again:

YOU'RE IN YOUR BEST POSITION TO NEGOTIATE FOR MORE MONEY WHEN YOU REALLY DON'T NEED MORE MONEY!

Ironic isn't it?

To be a tough negotiator in any other financial situation requires balls of steel and a poker face that Lady GaGa would slobber all over...some people can do it, but they're few and far between (and frankly they would be better off becoming agents).

To me it's really coming down to filtering out the crap projects that pay crap and only getting on board with really well crafted films. I think it's the only way to increase perceived valuation like Mike V. is talking about. There is a sense that if you're involved in prestigious and critically acclaimed films, you must posses some sort of supernatural gift and that's when people are willing to pay the big bucks! It's not always true, but my guess is that the guy who did the music for Monsters probably for very little money is getting more industry valuation than the guy who did Alien Raiders for a hefty chunk of change!


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## David Story (May 25, 2011)

midphase @ Wed May 25 said:


> YOU'RE IN YOUR BEST POSITION TO NEGOTIATE FOR MORE MONEY WHEN YOU REALLY DON'T NEED MORE MONEY!
> 
> Ironic isn't it?



True, and how most every business in the world works. Hollywood also has a lot of trust funders, and always has. Unfair, and nepotic. But there are a few good people, the right crowd.
Unions are the traditional way of dealing with unfair or strongarm tactics. But composers are known for not sticking together, and producers exploit this. I have hope for our getting together, but until then, luck and salesmanship rule, for the less fortunate. And I prefer Mike V's brand of sales to the dominate one, who remains nameless.






I think you'll knock it out of the park Malibu MataHari!


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## Guy Bacos (May 25, 2011)

midphase @ Wed May 25 said:


> YOU'RE IN YOUR BEST POSITION TO NEGOTIATE FOR MORE MONEY WHEN YOU REALLY DON'T NEED MORE MONEY!
> 
> Ironic isn't it?



I think that's pretty realistic, and the extra confidence you have of not needing the money is enough to impress the producer, psychological edge.

Unless you are bluffing, I have done that a few times and it has worked, but had it not worked I would of regretted it. It's a gamble too.


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## Lex (May 25, 2011)

mverta @ Wed May 25 said:


> You never get what you deserve, only what you accept. I'm not trying to brag, but I live a comfortable life and don't have to work another day in my life if I don't want to, and it's for that reason, and that reason alone. I started out broke-ass poor like anyone else, with no friends, family, or contacts in the business. But I realized right away that the whole town was completely full of [email protected]#t; a shell game of illusory valuation.
> 
> 
> _Mike



Wow! Is your IMDB not up to date? Or you managed to get set for life by scoring 7 Movies, all TV or straight to DVD. If so would you be willing to elaborate how does one do something like this? Good fee + worldwide royalties pile up? 

Or you use Dr. Evil strategies?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk4n0SvG0-Y

alex


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## Guy Bacos (May 25, 2011)

Lex @ Wed May 25 said:


> Or you use Dr. Evil strategies?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk4n0SvG0-Y
> 
> alex



lol


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## choc0thrax (May 25, 2011)

o[])


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## midphase (May 25, 2011)

Guys....Mike has stated more than a few times that a lot of his bread and butter comes from VFX work...anyone paying attention?


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## germancomponist (May 25, 2011)

whinecellar @ Wed May 25 said:


> Once again, a Mike Verta post I'm adding to my collection. If you don't write a book Mike, I'm gonna find the time someday to compile your posts and do it for you



+1 o-[][]-o


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## mverta (May 25, 2011)

First of all, everybody's always bluffing. That's the key. You guys need to watch The Big Picture again to honestly and truly learn everything you need to know about how Hollywood works. You're always talking as though producers are people with authority, when the truth is they're desperate creatures who can't revv their weekend Harleys loud enough to drown out the sound of their insecurity, and whom are constantly trying to fuck each other over because there are only so many vanity parking spaces on the lot. When you walk away from Producer A's film because there isn't enough money, you give Producer B a chance to give a big f-you to Producer A when he hires you, because his project is more "high profile" and can afford the better people. Walk into the room with zero credentials and state your fee and dare them to say no thanks. They might. That's what you want; let them spread the word that you're expensive. At the moment, they and everyone else will paint you as unreasonable (Who does he/she think she is?) but in a town full of white-knuckled insecure people, the fact that you might dare might mean you really ARE the gold/the opportunity/the goods, and they might be passing it up. And what if that stops them from getting the vanity parking space? That's all it takes. Let that roll a few innings and watch what happens. There is no reality. There is merely perceived reality, and you can shape it as well as anyone. It's a positive spin on the propagandists' idea that if you tell a big enough lie often enough, people will believe it. The caveat is that if you actually AREN'T the goods, then your ruse will only last a few innings. But when the skeptic goes to hunt you, and finds you're good to your word, you're solid in a way no marketing can by you.


Now...



Lex @ Wed May 25 said:


> Wow! Is your IMDB not up to date? Or you managed to get set for life by scoring 7 Movies, all TV or straight to DVD. If so would you be willing to elaborate how does one do something like this? Good fee + worldwide royalties pile up?
> 
> alex



I've already covered this from multiple angles in my podcasts, but, why not:

Early in my career I flooded music libraries with royalty-generating music. Soon after that, my VFX hobby became a second career and I realized the pitfalls in doing two types of work very quickly: There is a fine line between people thinking you're a "genius who does everything" and being considered a "jack-of-all-trades/king of none." Since I realized I was not only doing equal parts music and vfx, but a lot of editing, directing of commercials, sound design, mixing, consulting, creative supervision, software development, and Domestic Violence counseling, it was a fair bet that pretty much nobody would believe me. So I decided to treat "Mike Verta" like a brand; a brand with a very specific focus and sound, and skillset. It's carefully honed and protected; if you know the work on this site, then you know what that brand is. To accommodate all the rest of the revenue stream without defocusing or confusing the brand, I've used a lot of aliases, or made contractual agreements specifically not taking credit for work, or I've done a lot of advertising (no credits, generally), all of which generate money without putting unnecessary light on the brand. Gives me freedom to experiment, too. On top of that, the VFX work (as I've said countless times) generates income which is essentially music plus about two zeros. Do that for enough years and you can build up a pretty good nest egg. Especially if you do it like I did, which is basically not sleep for 7 years, burn through a marriage, weigh 140 pounds, and have chronic kidney stones. But then I took that big pile of cash and gave it to rich people, who know exactly what to do with that sort of thing, to make more of it.


There's no magic to any of this, save the one piece of alchemy I've tried to impart: There is only the illusion of a "way it is," of a "system." That is an illusion fostered by those who benefit from your not challenging such. But they are insecure entities, and once you are emboldened by the confidence of knowing you are the real deal (assuming you are) you can de-throne the naked Emperor at will. Begin by believing you can, because you can. Nobody gives you anything; you gotta take it. Give back through your art. 

"Mike Verta" doesn't have much in the way of IMDB credits, for sure. Not much of a film career, either. But he's no genius just because he found ways to buy himself breathing room while he's working on it. All it really took was an instinct of suspicion that people were full of shit, and just enough balls to call them on it. I'm trying to save you the trouble of doubting that, so you can get to the prospering part. 

I may never have a film career; who knows. But I know that if I do, the only way I want one is by doing the best work I can, and that requires me to practice constantly, and that takes time, and that means money. The money's out there. Go get it! 




_Mike


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## whinecellar (May 25, 2011)

OK, at the risk of sounding like a Mike Verta fan club member, he's dead-on right about this stuff, at least in my experience. I come at it from a different angle but the net result is the same. Here's the short version:

I moved to Nashville in 1995 with a dream of working with some artists I grew up listening to. Having been politely tenacious about it and having enough guts to think I could handle it, I managed to get a meeting with the tour manager. Keep in mind nobody knew me from Adam at the time, and this artist was prepping a major international tour with 15,000/night average crowds - they weren't about to hire some rookie kid with no resume. I guess they could tell I knew my stuff, and I suppose I projected enough confidence to reassure them I could handle the gig. So 5 months after moving to town, I landed a lifetime opportunity.

Anyway, the two main audio guys (FOH & monitor mixer) were two of the top guys in the game at that point - they had both mixed Madonna, Michael Jackson, Barbra Streisand, you name it. So here I am, this new kid in town with a lot to learn. These guys kinda took me under their wings and had the courtesy to pull me aside one day and lay out the unspoken rules of that world - and their advice was almost word-for-word what Mike says above: decide what you're worth, be willing to walk, and people WILL respect you. I've struggled with it over the years, but every time I've lived by those principles & valued myself, it's paid me back in spades. And yes, the caveat applies - it only works if you can deliver the goods 

I'd add this, which probably goes without saying: BE A NICE GUY - i.e. someone a client would like to work with! There's a way to be confident & sell people on the value of hiring you (you're not just selling your work - you're selling a relationship) - while being a genuinely likable & approachable person. It's a service industry, but it's as much about relationships as anything else.

Anyway, the 'value of music' topic has so many angles we could go on forever... in the meantime, back to work!

Cheers,

Jim


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## mverta (May 25, 2011)

You know, Jim, that's a good point about being nice about the whole thing. A lot of people can't envision a way in which walking away from a gig actually makes the person you're rejecting like you even MORE, but it's possible. It just depends how you say it. If you tell them, essentially, that it kills you to have to say no, but that you can't give them the product they deserve, and you won't do that to them, that goes a long way. Especially if you mean it. I always walk out of those meetings with open offers to help in any way if they need a sounding board or help verbalizing wants/needs with whomever they end up hiring, and a few have taken me up on that. The goal of those rejection meetings is for them to be saying, "I really appreciate your candor and your integrity, and I totally understand. We'll get 'em next time." This is where good people skills become critical, but when somebody truly feels that you care about their project as much as they do, such that you'd actually walk away from a paycheck rather than do substandard work at their expense, that can pay huge dividends for the future, and for your reputation. Integrity is a rare commodity, but one you can have exactly as much of as you wish.


_Mike


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## Ashermusic (May 25, 2011)

mverta @ Wed May 25 said:


> You know, Jim, that's a good point about being nice about the whole thing. A lot of people can't envision a way in which walking away from a gig actually makes the person you're rejecting like you even MORE, but it's possible. It just depends how you say it. If you tell them, essentially, that it kills you to have to say no, but that you can't give them the product they deserve, and you won't do that to them, that goes a long way. Especially if you mean it. I always walk out of those meetings with open offers to help in any way if they need a sounding board or help verbalizing wants/needs with whomever they end up hiring, and a few have taken me up on that. The goal of those rejection meetings is for them to be saying, "I really appreciate your candor and your integrity, and I totally understand. We'll get 'em next time." This is where good people skills become critical, but when somebody truly feels that you care about their project as much as they do, such that you'd actually walk away from a paycheck rather than do substandard work at their expense, that can pay huge dividends for the future, and for your reputation. Integrity is a rare commodity, but one you can have exactly as much of as you wish.
> 
> 
> _Mike



Yep. The only film I have done that I regret is the one I did NOT walk away from when I knew it was not working.


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## whinecellar (May 25, 2011)

mverta @ Wed May 25 said:


> If you tell them, essentially, that it kills you to have to say no, but that you can't give them the product they deserve, and you won't do that to them...



Bingo. I've had that EXACT conversation many times over the years and both parties have always walked away with mutual respect. Yes, I "lost" some gigs because of it in the short term, but guess what? Every one of those people ended up recommending me to someone else, or they ended up calling me for another project when they did have the resources! When you respect your time and your work shows you mean business, word can't help but spread that you're worth your salt.

This could all come across as being arrogant or whatever, but it's all in the delivery. In some ways it's a psychological chess match, but it ALWAYS conveys respect when you can say "you know what, your project is worth investing in, and I'd love to be able to give it the attention it deserves." Everybody wins when you do that - and mean it


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## Markus S (May 26, 2011)

Apart from the "connection side of things", something you generally have to consider when fixing your budget is, how much time you will have to invest : What style is asked? How much music will there be? If you are producing 30 minutes a day for minimalistic guitar improvisation, and the film needs 60 minutes of music, it's great. If you have to write 90 minutes of John Williams style of music and you are producing 30 seconds (of approved) music a day, well, then it's not so great. You will be working almost six months 7/7 for about 30 dollars a day.. But maybe the film just needs a few minutes, and some themes can be reused? It all comes down to how much time it will take you. Hard to judge without the details..


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## gsilbers (May 26, 2011)

MATAHARI @ Tue May 24 said:


> Hi friends,
> 
> Is 5 grand acceptable for scoring a feature film?
> 
> ...




damn,, take it! 

u are in malibu, well known hollywood tv actors... damnn man!!! 

thats 100 times better than ... a documentary, or a student film or a film that might go to a festival. 
that gig spells connections.
do u have much experience? 
if its so so then take it unless u have a "real job"  that wouldnt permit the time for it. 


just license the music so the music is all yours but they can use it any time all the time. (maybe set a date for relicensing like 5 years, that way if the movie happens to be some sort of 
then u can use that music again in libraries and such. 

also, tell them.. you are really thinking hard about it and at that price only this once 
 

i would totally do that gig if i where u.


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## MATAHARI (May 26, 2011)

This is all very interesting! It raises another question. 

Can we survive as composers in the way the world is working now?

I have been doing this for along time now. Its always a struggle to keep a roof over my head. I only do music... have not had a day job in over 20 years. AND I am a woman... that factor alone has been a hard road.... It is very much a boys world.

That aside... how do we do this with out having to take on other Jobs Like In Mike V 's case having a Vfx company.. which I think is a brilliant idea... and something I have considered myself, as I know how much money they make and I love vfx.

As you know I live in Malibu... next to the A list guys.. who i know. They even shake their heads at what is going on with budgets and the system being so corrupt.

Even the A list actors on hit tv shows are being asked to take pay decreases or they are fired. while the networks and producers become billionaires!

I dont blame charlie sheen for telling them all to Fck off! lol!

How do we do this??!!


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## David Story (May 26, 2011)

Stand together, show some collective backbone, make it unacceptable to undercut your brothers and sisters. Promote our skills and value.
It's happened before.


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## Lex (May 26, 2011)

mverta @ Wed May 25 said:


> I've already covered this from multiple angles in my podcasts, but, why not:
> 
> Early in my career I flooded music libraries with royalty-generating music. Soon after that, my VFX hobby became a second career and I realized the pitfalls in doing two types of work very quickly: There is a fine line between people thinking you're a "genius who does everything" and being considered a "jack-of-all-trades/king of none." Since I realized I was not only doing equal parts music and vfx, but a lot of editing, directing of commercials, sound design, mixing, consulting, creative supervision, software development, and Domestic Violence counseling, it was a fair bet that pretty much nobody would believe me. So I decided to treat "Mike Verta" like a brand; a brand with a very specific focus and sound, and skillset. It's carefully honed and protected; if you know the work on this site, then you know what that brand is. To accommodate all the rest of the revenue stream without defocusing or confusing the brand, I've used a lot of aliases, or made contractual agreements specifically not taking credit for work, or I've done a lot of advertising (no credits, generally), all of which generate money without putting unnecessary light on the brand. Gives me freedom to experiment, too. On top of that, the VFX work (as I've said countless times) generates income which is essentially music plus about two zeros. Do that for enough years and you can build up a pretty good nest egg. Especially if you do it like I did, which is basically not sleep for 7 years, burn through a marriage, weigh 140 pounds, and have chronic kidney stones. But then I took that big pile of cash and gave it to rich people, who know exactly what to do with that sort of thing, to make more of it.
> 
> ...



Thanks Mike. I haven't listened to your podcast so I didn't know this story. Although I don't see it connected to the topic at hand much, but I think it's a great story about one of the possibilities that one can do to make a decent living while he tries to make it as a composer. Glad it's working out for you.

As far as the whole you as a brand thing goes, I guess it's one way of looking at things, but certainly not the only way and not my way. 

cheers

alex


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## whinecellar (May 26, 2011)

Lex @ Thu May 26 said:


> As far as the whole you as a brand thing goes, I guess it's one way of looking at things, but certainly not the only way and not my way.



Hey Alex, would you mind expounding on that a little? I'd be curious as to what possible downside you see to that, if any - or what you see as an alternative.

Personally, I totally buy the idea and always have. In any service-oriented business, your name IS your brand. I know I want mine to be synonymous with excellence, integrity, attention to detail, etc. - just curious to hear your take since you mentioned you see it differently.

Cheers!


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## José Herring (May 26, 2011)

MATAHARI @ Thu May 26 said:


> This is all very interesting! It raises another question.
> 
> Can we survive as composers in the way the world is working now?
> 
> ...



Get as good as you can get. There' s obviously a lot of money out there. At least for the best ones. 

Honestly, I use to think that it was all about luck and connections. Then I met with a few big wig composers and realized that it's about being really good. Believe it or not they (producers and directors can tell). It's funny how a lot of composers that disagree with a particular style of music or composer automatically think it's bad. Thus the confusion that you don't have to be that good to make it big. But in truth, just because one doesn't agree with a particular style of composer doesn't mean they're bad. All one has to do is try to copy what somebody else is doing and you'll see that if they're successful they're hinging their success on the fact that they're stellar at some aspect of modern music creation.

Honestly I think the term "composer" these days is misleading and quite outdated. There's so much more to being a composer than composing music. Every aspect of modern music production can be creative. I find a lot of older composers and even some younger ones that don't really understand this. I was talking to a composer once and we talked about recording. He said, "oh, I'll let the engineer handle all that". That's so old fashion of a way of thinking to me. I mean how the hell is he(engineer) really going to know what you're after. Or if you're after a particular sound how do you even know which guy to hire unless you know how the sound you're after is created.

It's funny that HZ gets knocked so much around here. I guess when you meet him or talk to him it's different. He's really, really knowledgeable. There's this perception that he's got tons of minions doing all his work for him. Nothing could be farther from the truth. He's got people doing what he's trained them to do, because it would be impossible for him to do it all himself. If you've even spent 10 minutes in the room with him you'll immediately see that he's some sort of genius. And, the funny thing of it all is that he doesn't even really think so. But he is. I see a sampler and I think, sampler. He sees a sampler and he sees a musical instrument with all it's possibilities. He talks about envelopes like a violinist talks about bow strokes. I don't think that in his mind there's much of a difference.

What I try to do, is to take a look at what the guy who isn't anything like me, what is he doing. I use to pan sound design and synthesis like it was the devil killing music. Then I took a small job, mostly schlepping cables in the middle of the night with a sound designer just to see what the heck he was doing. He didn't know much about music in the traditional sense but I didn't care. After about 2 weeks of doing this I found that there is an incredible amount of thought and musicality behind it all and it totally changed me. It's not easy. Takes a lot of time. Just pulling up an omnisphere patch won't really cut it. You really have to know what you're doing.

So I think that if anybody of us at the near bottom, want to ascend to the near top, then we really have to take a look at the world we live in. Not with a critical eye, but with an observing eye and try to find our own contemporary sound. It's at least what I've been trying to do for two years now. I let you know if I ever "make it". :lol: But I have this theory that if you can really find a sound that's effective then you stand a chance as an outside composer. With so many people doing Williams, or Zimmer or Goldsmith or what have you, then at least you can represent an alternative to all that. What's hard though is that your skills have to be top notch and I think you have to be honest with yourself. It also means that you can't really listen much to what other people think about your stuff. But if you're really honest with yourself then others opinion won't really matter any way.

Sorry for the longish post. I hurt my back today for the fist time in my life and I don't know what to do with myself. Does the pain ever go away? I hate growing old! :evil:


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## Lex (May 26, 2011)

whinecellar @ Thu May 26 said:


> Lex @ Thu May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > As far as the whole you as a brand thing goes, I guess it's one way of looking at things, but certainly not the only way and not my way.
> ...



Sure...I have no interest in becoming purely a service provider in a service oriented business. I have no interest in my music having only entertainment value. I have no interest in my name becoming a brand for anything. If i did, I would have worked on becoming a pop music entertainer.

You need confidence and guts to get even a slight chance to show what you can do as a composer, but once that happens only what you created can make your name synonymous with attributes. You mentioned excellence, integrity, attention to detail, I would much rather have "makes music that makes me feel/think/remember.....", able to express his emotions, able to connect with the story and so on...Just shows different composers go for different attributes. 

Now, they way I see it, if you got your chances and your work is not getting you the "name attributes" you wanted, it simply means your work is not good enough for the medium you chose to work in...it could be it's because your "craft" is still too green, or because the medium you chose to work in is wrong for your artistic affinities, or you simply don't have it. If this happens, no amount of self branding will help globally and on a long run. It can work within a limited circle of people and clients that like your "brand", but does this really make your name a well known globally recognized brand?

I even find it silly a bit, without offence, but if you think about it except for Hans Zimmer which other composer in our world you see that can be seen as anything remotely resembling a world wide recognized brand name? And even him got there by being exceptional and unique at what he does, before he started being a "brand" (if he is one at all)..

You know...as I'm writing this I'm listening to "Signs", and soaking in every emotion, every note, every clever orchestration of this exceptional music, and I don't connect JNH name with brilliance because he "branded" him self as "*James Newton Howard MAX - maximum flavor no sugar*", but because of how he writes music.

Now, if you have a company of any sort that offers a service there is no question that you HAVE to try to make it in to a well known brand. But being a working composer and a being a service providing music related company are two different things.


alex


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## whinecellar (May 26, 2011)

Lex @ Thu May 26 said:


> You mentioned excellence, integrity, attention to detail, I would much rather have "makes music that makes me feel/think/remember.....", able to express his emotions, able to connect with the story and so on...



Cool - thanks for clarifying. I don't think those are mutually exclusive though. When I do my job well ("make music that makes them feel/think/remember.....", connect with the story, etc.), excellence, integrity & attention to detail should be evident as part of whatever I bring to the table 

At the end of the day I think we're barking up the same tree - we're just dealing in semantics when we say "brand."

Good stuff though Alex...


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## David Story (May 26, 2011)

Music is more. Sound design isn't music. Engineering isn't music. Yes, it's creative sound. There's a mystery to music that only those who learn from the masters can reach. If you don't hear it, open your mind and heart. Rap is entertainment, rarely art. Beethoven is art and entertainment all the time. And so are the best film scores. 

Integrity for a composer means music that expresses timeless truth, not pandering to a crowd. Respecting and adding to the craft. Long form.

Easy to see why the value of music is down. Some of the people who make it are faking it. Choose integrity.


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## midphase (May 26, 2011)

MATAHARI @ Thu May 26 said:


> This is all very interesting! It raises another question.
> 
> Can we survive as composers in the way the world is working now?



I already mentioned my thoughts on this...but IMHO the answer is increasingly a big fat "NO"

I think those lucky enough to have caught the last seat on the train are probably in good shape for the time being, but just about everyone in the new generational wave of composers is in serious trouble right about now.


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## MATAHARI (May 27, 2011)

... Jose.....yes I agree get as good as you can get be different, special. I know Hz for years ...old friend from way back.

I watch his rise to the top. The thing he was great at was electronics... synths.. programing them and such. he had a niche if you could call it that. And the ability to communicate with witty humor and some intellegence.

So yes its important to have a style that stands out and the ability to have directors trust and enjoy the process with their composer.


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