# Using percussion samples from a trapset (drumkit) in orchestral scores



## alphabetgreen (Aug 17, 2010)

In Paul Gilreath's "The Guide to MIDI Orchestration", he says thus:

_"Though this may be stating the obvious, when you are striving for a traditional orchestral sound, you should only use orchestral percussion samples and not pop percussion samples...... the actual instruments themselves are very different"_ *page 191 - 3rd edition.
*
and....

_"The novice MIDI orchestrator often makes mistakes in the treatment of cymbals. As mentioned, there are major differences between cymbals used in orchestra and cymbals used in a trap set"_ *page 195 - 3rd edition*

I'm not a particularly good MIDI orchestrator by any means, but I don't think I'm a novice (or not much of one anyway). However, there are times when my music has needed certain percussive elements that can only be found in a drumkit. For instance, a lot of times, I use a ride cymbal to keep a quiet pulse generating through music. I also find that the snare drum in a drumkit has a lot more depth and power than the military style side drum of an orchestra.

I've actually renamed one of my works because of these statements by Paul Gilreath (I'm not dissing the guy at all. I get a lot out of his book) from:

"Concerto for Orchestra, Piano & Percussion" to:

"Concerto for Orchestra, Piano & Drumkit"

Unfortunately, I'm having trouble uploading examples to my box.net (I can't imagine why), so I can only give you a whole movement as a example, rather than a short snatch of it. It's the slow movement of the above piece. It's also a very old rendition when my mock-up skills left a lot to be desired (they still do to be honest, but not as much as in the example below).

http://www.box.net/shared/16bpoxib3g

All I ask is this. Is it really that much of a crime to include instruments from a trap-set (drumkit) in one's orchestral works?


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## David Story (Aug 17, 2010)

Normal orchestration, keep writing what sounds good to you.

Everything, including the drumkit, could be larger and more open. That's the mockup.
What the guy probably meant is: don't confuse orchestral percussion with a kit. You can use anything you can get to work.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 17, 2010)

Of course it's not a crime, alpha! The point is just to be aware of the different sounds.

In practice the biggest difference with samples is that orchestral perc is likely to be recorded from a greater distance (or given more reverb and less direct sound).


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## alphabetgreen (Aug 17, 2010)

David Story @ Wed 18 Aug said:


> Normal orchestration, keep writing what sounds good to you.
> 
> Everything, including the drumkit, could be larger and more open. That's the mockup.
> What the guy probably meant is: don't confuse orchestral percussion with a kit. You can use anything you can get to work.



Thanks David. I agree about the mock up. I just wish I could upload my later mixes.

Nick, as the drumkit features in the concerto, it could well be that it would be stationed in front of the conductor next to the piano (also featured).


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## JPQ (Aug 18, 2010)

i know is maybe offtopic little but where is correct place in score for drumkit. my idea use raltime pitchs like all other percussions but problem is drumkit is played by one people only which makes this idea odd. second best idea is timpani,drumkit,after that all other percussions...


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## alphabetgreen (Aug 18, 2010)

JPQ @ Wed 18 Aug said:


> i know is maybe offtopic little but where is correct place in score for drumkit. my idea use raltime pitchs like all other percussions but problem is drumkit is played by one people only which makes this idea odd. second best idea is timpani,drumkit,after that all other percussions...



I guess that would make sense if the drumkit were part of the orchestra and situated at the back. In the case of the music I posted, the drumkit is a significant element of the concerto, so I guess it would be written on the score just below the piano.


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## José Herring (Aug 18, 2010)

The amount of successful film and concert music that utilize non orchestral percussion are so numerous that it would be a mistake to give the author's opinion in this regard too much weight. Also the amount of percussion instruments that are considered "orchestral" percussion are too few to limit yourself or your music to just "orchestral" percussion. 

I keep in mind a excellent viewpoint expressed by Troels Fomann. That being as you grow in composing anything can be your orchestra. That opinion is also expressed rather well in Rimsky-Korsakov's orchestration book were he states that any sonorous body can be considered an instrument. The trick is in how and when to use the instruments at your disposal towards some sort of pleasing aesthetic effect.

So, the question isn't "is it a crime to use a trapset in orchestral music" but rather how and when to use a trapset in orchestral music.


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## PoppaJimmy (Aug 18, 2010)

JPQ @ Wed Aug 18 said:


> i know is maybe offtopic little but where is correct place in score for drumkit. my idea use raltime pitchs like all other percussions but problem is drumkit is played by one people only which makes this idea odd. second best idea is timpani,drumkit,after that all other percussions...



I deal with this a lot because I do Symphony Pops, Musical Theatre and live Vegas stage shows for a living. I've tried a whole bunch of different ways and have ended up going with a 'rhythm section' at the bottom of the score. From the bottom up this is Drums, Bass, Guitar, Piano, then the rest of the score is standard orchestra format (with extras, e.g. Saxes) as needed. 

Of course, this is different from a true concert piece where the Traps kit is more a part of the percussion section. In a case like that, you can make an argument for a lot of configurations. I would probably put it at the bottom of the percussion section, with the Timpani at the top. Since the drum kit can have almost the whole range of the rest of the percussion and plays so many different instruments, it's easier for me to read it at the bottom of the section with the rest of the percussion above it. It makes sense to my brain that way.

Be Well,


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## alphabetgreen (Aug 18, 2010)

I am sooooo pleased that I raised this issue, and have been thoroughly satisfied with the replies given here.

It's reassuring to know that I will not have to replace my trapset with orchestral percussion. I have used certain orchestral percussive elements but they are tucked away at the back with the timps. The trapset will remain to the fore as planned.


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## EthanStoller (Aug 18, 2010)

Not that anyone asked, but two of my favorite recorded examples of a trap set playing with a full orchestra are Duke Ellington's "Night Creature" (2nd movement especially) and Michael Giacchino's score for _Speed Racer._


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## alphabetgreen (Aug 18, 2010)

I take it that there are drummers that can read music for a trap set? I'd like to know how to score their parts.


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## Zei (Aug 18, 2010)

There's always Drumkit Notation.


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## alphabetgreen (Aug 18, 2010)

Zei @ Wed 18 Aug said:


> There's always Drumkit Notation.



Ha ha! Bingo! Thanks Zei!!


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## JPQ (Aug 18, 2010)

If i write odd tune which drum kit and symphonic orchestra what is correct place in score for drumkit ?


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## JPQ (Aug 18, 2010)

i ask i dont know what genre one composers make which mixes band instruments,strings,brass,woodwindws,percussion etc. i think is someway progessive rock.


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## alphabetgreen (Aug 18, 2010)

JPQ @ Wed 18 Aug said:


> If i write odd tune which drum kit and symphonic orchestra what is correct place in score for drumkit ?



I think has already been discussed. Just below the timps if part of orchestra.


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## PoppaJimmy (Aug 18, 2010)

alphabetgreen @ Wed Aug 18 said:


> I take it that there are drummers that can read music for a trap set? I'd like to know how to score their parts.



There are many, many drummers who read full-on drumset notation. Virtually all studio players do as do most Musical Theatre and Stage show drummers as well as those who play in Symphony Pops orchestras. You can literally write out anything you hear in your mind or can think of and they will play it directly from your part with no trouble.

This free guide:

http://web.mit.edu/merolish/Public/drums.pdf

Is based on this book which is well worth the price:

http://www.amazon.com/Standardized-Drumset-Notation-Norman-Weinberg/dp/0966492811 (http://www.amazon.com/Standardized-Drum ... 0966492811)

These drummers are also very comfortable with non-standard forms of notation because there is no absolute standard in percussion notation. Of course, some tend to specialize but session players are very versatile. As long as you create a clear legend for your parts, make the parts clear and easy to read and are consistent throughout the piece, they can play whatever you write.

Be Well,


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## alphabetgreen (Aug 18, 2010)

Thanks Poppa. That's not only reassuring, but quite interesting.

As far as I knew, your average pub rock drummer was self taught and had learnt various beats and rolls from listening to their favourite influences. This is in absolutely no way a bad thing of course. I'm sure that there are some immensely talented drummers out there that have learnt their trade this way. But it is still good to know that a lot of them can read music.


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## PoppaJimmy (Aug 19, 2010)

alphabetgreen,

I honestly don't know about 'your average pub rock drummer.' Like you, I certainly respect self-taught musicians and I think we all know there are genuises out there who can't read a note. 

However, if you're writing for orchestra or stage show, reading is not really an issue. The people who get these gigs are almost always good readers. When it comes to recording studio session players, they are all super readers or they wouldn't get the steady gigs. So, the composer arranger doesn't have to worry about this.

There are some practical considerations and in many cases, if you know who your players are you can make certain choices because of that or even intentionally hire certain players because of their particular abilities. Also, if you are writing some things that are really unusual or difficult, you can usually contact the player in advance and send h/him the part (this is not just for drummers). Other than that though, you write what you want and they play it. And if you want a 'pub rock drummer' :D in your orchestra piece, or a digeridoo, or Caribbean steel drums or Bulgarian mountain singers or anything at all, you put it there. It's all about actualizing your conception and making it 'work' musically - whatever that means.

Be Well,


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