# Not liking all these new sample players...



## gsilbers (Feb 5, 2022)

My old' man rant... 






I just keep having all sort of issues with all of them.


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 5, 2022)




----------



## jamwerks (Feb 5, 2022)

If you don't like them, then don't use them (or buy them). Done!


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 5, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Feb 5, 2022)

jamwerks said:


> If you don't like them, then don't use them (or buy them). Done!


ok.. but i can i still make memes?


----------



## Wunderhorn (Feb 5, 2022)

I has been discussed here many times though it is just true, and manufacturers still have not gotten the message.

The more proprietary players you have

• the more compatibility issues you have,
• the more baby-sitting you have to do in terms of updates
• the more acrobatics you have to perform to integrate them into your workflow
• the more different licensing schemes you have to contort to
• the more accounts and passwords you have to juggle
• the more complicated it gets when you move to a new computer
• the more unnecessary complexity is being added to your house of cards that is your template
• the more crashes in your DAW are already pre-meditated.

even if you don't always feel crippled by all of the above, all in all it makes our lives harder, not easier.
It's all about ego, eco-systems, both don't add to the products that enable us to making music.


----------



## Getsumen (Feb 5, 2022)

Debatable on Kontakt easy authorization and installation sometimes.
Kontakt also just lacks the ability to do a few features that other players want to do. 

I also don't think that the cost of encoding is the main reason. Probably the fact that Kontakt does nothing to stop piracy is another large issue for devs.


----------



## szczaw (Feb 5, 2022)

Keep it solid and uncomplicated: one DAW & one plugin only.


----------



## Marcus Millfield (Feb 5, 2022)

And then we haven't even started about download and license managers yet...


----------



## rMancer (Feb 5, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> And then we haven't even start about download and license managers yet...


I was halfway through typing that but you beat me to it!


----------



## cuttime (Feb 5, 2022)




----------



## Crowe (Feb 5, 2022)

I'm simply not buying any libraries that don't work in Kontakt until library devs shape up and actually release players that don't suck ***.

Conquer your FOMO. Stick to your guns. FFS stop giving in to bullshit.


----------



## GMT (Feb 5, 2022)

At the risk of sounding like an angry old man too, I haven't bought any Orchestral Tools products because of my (limited) experience with Sine, and I won't be buying any more Spitfire player libraries after issues I have had that necessitated help from their (admittedly very good) support team. I have nothing against the products of either company, but it is frustrating beyond belief for me when a player keeps crashing, needs some kind of new authorisation or fix, or even worse, shuts down my daw. I'll just have to wait until I see excited reports from other users that all glitches are fixed.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 5, 2022)

Some killer memes here. Keep it going, peeps!


----------



## rMancer (Feb 5, 2022)

GMT said:


> At the risk of sounding like an angry old man too, I haven't bought any Orchestral Tools products because of my (limited) experience with Sine, and I won't be buying any more Spitfire player libraries after issues I have had that necessitated help from their (admittedly very good) support team. I have nothing against the products of either company, but it is frustrating beyond belief for me when a player keeps crashing, needs some kind of new authorisation or fix, or even worse, shuts down my daw. I'll just have to wait until I see excited reports from other users that all glitches are fixed.


Pretty similar situation here. I picked up a few things a la carte in Sine to test the waters, and it has been a really bad experience... besides the weird, laggy UI, it sometimes completely crashes my DAW seemingly at random. I've been in the market for a nice orchestral library, and I love the tone of their libraries, but the experience with their player has basically made me write off those test purchases as a loss and shop around elsewhere. Crash my DAW once, shame on you, etc etc


----------



## rgames (Feb 5, 2022)

Kontakt was my preference for a long time but the VSL Synchron Player is the new top dog for me.

I'd be happy to let Kontakt die. Seems NI feels the same way.

rgames


----------



## Wunderhorn (Feb 5, 2022)

rgames said:


> Kontakt was my preference for a long time but the VSL Synchron Player is the new top dog for me.
> 
> I'd be happy to let Kontakt die. Seems NI feels the same way.


This would mean for VSL to open up their Synchron player though eco-system fetischism seems to stand in the way of that.


----------



## sostenuto (Feb 5, 2022)

OTH _ appreciate many, truly capable users _ working with VSL /OT /SFA /others _ to identify notable issues; often suggesting key improvements. 🙆🏻‍♂️


----------



## Cdnalsi (Feb 5, 2022)

I'm loving the new sample players. They've worked flawlessly for me so far on Apple Silicon and with that in mind they're actually kicking old-school player's butts *cough*Kontakt*cough* to up their game and get with the times and technology.


----------



## rgames (Feb 5, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> This would mean for VSL to open up their Synchron player though eco-system fetischism seems to stand in the way of that.


Yeah seems that's not going to happen. Having VSL license their player has been discussed in various places since the VI player came out.

The Synchron Player is amazingly efficient, though, and packs a lot of really good functionality. It's vastly superior to anything else out there as far as I can tell. It took me a solid month or so to fully understand how to set up the "tree" structure and it remains quirky to set up, but once you get it set up it's a superb sample playback engine. I can now run the exact same template on my desktop and laptop - no purging necessary, no slave machines necessary, etc. Latency is a bit higher on the laptop but it's still perfectly fine, certainly a good trade for being able to work with exactly the same set of samples.

rgames


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 5, 2022)

rgames said:


> Seems NI feels the same way.


Patently false.


----------



## KEM (Feb 5, 2022)

If SINE was a stable as Kontakt I think everyone would see how good it is, hopefully that’ll come with time. Spitfire Player just sucks in every aspect


----------



## AMBi (Feb 5, 2022)

Yeah I’m indifferent to the whole “x player is better than y player” thing since I haven’t had that much issues with any plugins really. (Except Best Service Engine….screw Best Service Engine)

I just adore having everything in one place, so I’m much less likely to buy or feel tempted by libraries housed in players that aren’t Kontakt unless I consider them absolute must-haves.

So my wallet is quite fond of these new players at least.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 5, 2022)

Cdnalsi said:


> I'm loving the new sample players. They've worked flawlessly for me so far on Apple Silicon and with that in mind they're actually kicking old-school player's butts *cough*Kontakt*cough* to up their game and get with the times and technology.


Me too (2020 iMac). None of them cause me issues.


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 5, 2022)

KEM said:


> If SINE was a stable as Kontakt I think everyone would see how good it is, hopefully that’ll come with time. Spitfire Player just sucks in every aspect


It’s been my most solid player. Not much functionality and it’s GUI is rather uninspired but solid.


----------



## NoamL (Feb 5, 2022)

SF Player works fine for me, no crashes, working alongside a zillion Kontakt instances and VEPro. 

Not interested in the other custom samplers yet.. I still have EW Play in my template but only for the EWQLSO gong, cym and harp.


----------



## KEM (Feb 5, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> It’s been my most solid player. Not much functionality and it’s GUI is rather uninspired but solid.



It’s solid for me as well but I feel like it’s memory optimization could be better, I’ve had this weird issue where going to the mixer page inside of VEP causes the entire project to crash, I think it could be a ram issue but I’m not entirely sure


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 5, 2022)

KEM said:


> It’s solid for me as well but I feel like it’s memory optimization could be better, I’ve had this weird issue where going to the mixer page inside of VEP causes the entire project to crash, I think it could be a ram issue but I’m not entirely sure


The browser is what drives me nuts. But I haven’t had any issues with it. I have no preference between it and Kontakt though for SF libraries. For Sine even though it gives me more issues than the SF player, I prefer Sine for OT libraries over Kontakt by quite a lot.


----------



## Dr.Quest (Feb 5, 2022)

gsilbers said:


>


This has been discussed many times here and it doesn't seem to factor in. Mike Green says it just isn't that much as do other developers. This seems to be a myth that doesn't ever go away and it is never backed up by anything.


----------



## doctoremmet (Feb 5, 2022)




----------



## Stevie (Feb 5, 2022)

NoamL said:


> SF Player works fine for me, no crashes, working alongside a zillion Kontakt instances and VEPro.
> 
> Not interested in the other custom samplers yet.. I still have EW Play in my template but only for the EWQLSO gong, cym and harp.


The timpani, the timpani! Still one of the best.
I’m even using the Kontakt version.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 5, 2022)

I must be lucky - Synchron, OPUS, Spitfire, UVI, Engine, and even SINE generally are stable on my system. SINE was the worst of the lot (well documented stability problems over the first year), but it has gotten better - though still not where it needs to be. Only Synchron and OPUS have proper purging, which is important to me (even though I have 64GB of RAM), but I imagine we'll see that for SINE and Spitfire this year. All the UIs are serviceable, though SINE has made some really poor UI choices (in my professional opinion). And Engine really needs a refresh in general. Spitfire's player looks beautiful (as evidenced by their customization per library), but I can see how the space utilization can put some people off (not me though). Synchron is very utilitarian and functional - and works really well in that regard. I think EW did a great job with OPUS overall. These players all offer the developers something that Kontakt doesn't allow for - mic merging, specialty scripting, more robust time-stretching options, etc. - not to mention the copy protection. I like Kontakt and have no particular complaints about it. But outside of purging (and SINE's general stability and UX usability), I don't really have many complaints about the custom players. Just try to get on with it.


----------



## KEM (Feb 5, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> The browser is what drives me nuts. But I haven’t had any issues with it. I have no preference between it and Kontakt though for SF libraries. For Sine even though it gives me more issues than the SF player, I prefer Sine for OT libraries over Kontakt by quite a lot.



I can’t stand the Spitfire Player, keyswitches just don’t work at all, no purge function, it just flat out sucks. Where SINE struggles in some performances areas it makes up for in good features, at least for me


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 5, 2022)

KEM said:


> I can’t stand the Spitfire Player, keyswitches just don’t work at all, no purge function, it just flat out sucks. Where SINE struggles in some performances areas it makes up for in good features, at least for me


What's wrong with Spitfire player's keyswitches? That's all I use with them through expression maps / articulation sets / sound variations.


----------



## Blakus (Feb 5, 2022)

To me it seems obvious that these new samplers are definitely not to created to benefit the end user. Less stability, worse performance, no ability to go 'under the hood' and fix/tweak things. I get that companies want to avoid paying N.I. license fees etc, but things have gone painfully backwards for users over the last few years.


----------



## rgames (Feb 5, 2022)

NoamL said:


> SF Player works fine for me, no crashes, working alongside a zillion Kontakt instances and VEPro.


Spitfire player worked OK for me as long as it didn't lose track of my licenses. All too often I would load it up and it would say I didn't have a license even though nothing changed since the day before when I shut it down.

And then you wait a few days for Spitfire to reset it... Every player I've ever used has some technical problem with streaming or memory management or other player-related issues. But losing track of a license? Never had that happen anywhere other than in the Spitfire player, and it happened regularly.

I gave up on Spitfire for that reason. I still use the Kontakt libraries occasionally because it's not a coin toss on whether I'll be able to use them on any given day.

I like the sound of Spitfire libraries. If they were in the Synchron player I'd probably use them more often.

rgames


----------



## rgames (Feb 5, 2022)

Blakus said:


> Less stability, worse performance


Even Synchron? I find it to be vastly superior to Kontakt in every way except the fact that the GUI is laggy when you switch instruments.

I could never work with an entire sampled orchestra on my laptop in Kontakt. I can do that easily in Synchron.

rgames


----------



## Blakus (Feb 5, 2022)

rgames said:


> Even Synchron? I find it to be vastly superior to Kontakt in every way except the fact that the GUI is laggy when you switch instruments.
> 
> I could never work with an entire sampled orchestra on my laptop in Kontakt. I can do that easily in Synchron.
> 
> rgames


I don't use VSL instruments, so I can't speak to that one. I'm referring to Spitfire Player and SINE mainly. Hell, I'd pay 30% more to buy Kontakt versions of these libraries.


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 5, 2022)

Blakus said:


> To me it seems obvious that these new samplers are definitely not to created to benefit the end user. Less stability, worse performance, no ability to go 'under the hood' and fix/tweak things. I get that companies want to avoid paying N.I. license fees etc, but things have gone painfully backwards for users over the last few years.


You can’t go under the hood with most new SF Kontakt libraries these days. For long it was just the legato patches but increasingly the whole library is off limits. So it’s a simple rompler either way whether Kontakt or the Player.


----------



## KEM (Feb 5, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What's wrong with Spitfire player's keyswitches? That's all I use with them through expression maps / articulation sets / sound variations.



All of the other articulation changers work except for standard keyswitches, they literally don’t do anything, I started using velocity triggers to change articulations but that only works for longs obviously, for shorts I have to open up another instance of the player and load a different articulation


----------



## NoamL (Feb 5, 2022)

Blakus said:


> To me it seems obvious that these new samplers are definitely not to created to benefit the end user. Less stability, worse performance, no ability to go 'under the hood' and fix/tweak things. I get that companies want to avoid paying N.I. license fees etc, but things have gone painfully backwards for users over the last few years.


Right now the performance may be worse than Kontakt in things like sample purging but they know what users want, I feel confident they're working on it as they've clearly bet the business on this new platform...



Blakus said:


> Hell, I'd pay 30% more to buy Kontakt versions of these libraries.


So would I but they couldn't develop them for a Kontakt release... too much piracy. The whole reason we're getting AR1 I reckon is because SFP was ready. Actually they're releasing this when SFP could in fairness be called "not quite ready" for either Appassionata or AR1



KEM said:


> All of the other articulation changers work except for standard keyswitches, they literally don’t do anything, I started using velocity triggers to change articulations but that only works for longs obviously, for shorts I have to open up another instance of the player and load a different articulation


bizarre problem - make sure you're using the right octave? The C-1 is actually C-2 for me in Logic?


----------



## Pedro Camacho (Feb 5, 2022)

Blakus said:


> I don't use VSL instruments, so I can't speak to that one. I'm referring to Spitfire Player and SINE mainly. Hell, I'd pay 30% more to buy Kontakt versions of these libraries.


Just AMEN. I would pay more 100%.


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 5, 2022)

KEM said:


> All of the other articulation changers work except for standard keyswitches, they literally don’t do anything, I started using velocity triggers to change articulations but that only works for longs obviously, for shorts I have to open up another instance of the player and load a different articulation


Are you sure you are triggering the correct octave. The SF player uses c-1 for the bottom of the keyboard where Kontakt uses c-2. But other than that everything works normally.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 5, 2022)

KEM said:


> All of the other articulation changers work except for standard keyswitches, they literally don’t do anything, I started using velocity triggers to change articulations but that only works for longs obviously, for shorts I have to open up another instance of the player and load a different articulation


Peculiar - I only use standard keyswitches with the Spitfire player. Never has given me an issue. Maybe support can help you out.


----------



## KEM (Feb 5, 2022)

NoamL said:


> bizarre problem - make sure you're using the right octave? The C-1 is actually C-2 for me in Logic?



If that’s the issue I’m gonna look like a total idiot but then again that’d also be Spitfire’s fault, I’ll try it out and see if it that’s the problem, I wouldn’t put it past them to have their keyswitches register on the wrong notes though…


----------



## KEM (Feb 5, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Are you sure you are triggering the correct octave. The SF player uses c-1 for the bottom of the keyboard where Kontakt uses c-2. But other than that everything works normally.





ALittleNightMusic said:


> Peculiar - I only use standard keyswitches with the Spitfire player. Never has given me an issue. Maybe support can help you out.



I’ll check as soon as I’m home, that could be the issue


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 5, 2022)

KEM said:


> If that’s the issue I’m gonna look like a total idiot but then again that’d also be Spitfire’s fault, I’ll try it out and see if it that’s the problem, I wouldn’t put it past them to have their keyswitches register on the wrong notes though…


Not the wrong notes just a different designation system.


----------



## Blakus (Feb 5, 2022)

NoamL said:


> So would I but they couldn't develop them for a Kontakt release... too much piracy. The whole reason we're getting AR1 I reckon is because SFP was ready. Actually they're releasing this when SFP could in fairness be called "not quite ready" for either Appassionata or AR1


That's an interesting point, and makes sense to me. The frustration is real in the meantime


----------



## KEM (Feb 5, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Not the wrong notes just a different designation system.



A stupid one!!


----------



## KEM (Feb 5, 2022)

Or maybe I’m just stupid…


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 5, 2022)

KEM said:


> Or maybe I’m just stupid…


Don't worry - I noticed it happened with me too that I was an octave off in my expression maps at first in Cubase. I never know how the DAW and these players line up - so usually just try a few octaves until I find the one that works.


----------



## NoamL (Feb 5, 2022)

KEM said:


> If that’s the issue I’m gonna look like a total idiot but then again that’d also be Spitfire’s fault, I’ll try it out and see if it that’s the problem, I wouldn’t put it past them to have their keyswitches register on the wrong notes though…


From my understanding, it stems back from some disagreement back in the 1980s about which octave is actually the zeroth octave, that never got permanently resolved?... that would be par for the course for MIDI wouldn't it.

In that vein, you see people all over this thread blaming the samplers for stability problems, fair enough that is their responsibility, but at least the sample library companies are moving things forward. And yes I do regard these new players as a step forward not backwards insofar as they enable the new generation of deep sampled libraries to be possible as a business. By contrast what have the DAW companies done for us in the past 5 years? People have been talking about playback lookahead for years, what about working with all developers to do a common protocol for that? How about really nailing down a sampler-AGNOSTIC protocol for contextual tuning? Basically anything to make DAWs more than a dumbplayback system for libraries? How much bigger does Spitfire have to get before Steinberg and Apple notice its existence? I use Logic so I can use Spitfire I sure as heck don't use Spitfire so I can use Logic.


----------



## NoamL (Feb 5, 2022)

Blakus said:


> That's an interesting point, and makes sense to me. The frustration is real in the meantime


how many years have we all lost collectively waiting for PLAY to load....


----------



## Blakus (Feb 5, 2022)

NoamL said:


> how many years have we all lost collectively waiting for PLAY to load....


For me, I find SF player tends to struggle with many instances - not friendly for non-keyswitch users like myself. I have to load them in VE Pro otherwise it's unusable in Cubase with High ASIO Guard. I'll live... maybe. 

Oh, and SINE just flat out crashes Cubase for me after a few minutes. :D


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 5, 2022)

KEM said:


> A stupid one!!


Like Noam I’ve heard It goes back to hardware synths and keyboards. Roland chose one, Yamaha the other. The sample world seems to work mostly with middle C=C3 though middle C = C4 is generally more common.


----------



## KEM (Feb 5, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Like Noam I’ve heard It goes back to hardware synths and keyboards. Roland chose one, Yamaha the other. The sample world seems to work mostly with middle C=C3 though middle C = C4 is generally more common.



Yeah I have noticed some synths and sample libraries I have label middle C as either C3 or C4 so I was always confused by that, I’ve always considered it to be C3, if Spitfire’s keyswitches are indeed in a different octave than I thought I’ll be a little frustrated but better to know than not, SINE uses exactly what I set it at (I start my keyswitches at C6 and they aren’t off an octave)


----------



## lumcas (Feb 5, 2022)

While I somewhat agree with the basic premise, I have to give it to EW OPUS, they really have outdone themselves this time. Nevertheless, I'm patiently waiting for Play Pro release, any minute now is what I've heard...


----------



## Robert_G (Feb 5, 2022)

I'm not a fan of multiple sample players either. The Spitfire player and SINE seem to be nightmares....one of the main reasons I don't buy from Spitfire or OT.
I'll give VSL a pass though because the Synchron Player is just plain awesome.


----------



## Batwaffel (Feb 6, 2022)

I've been saying for years that NI needs some actual competition for Kontakt. They have gotten very lazy with it for quite some time.

Needs proper scaling for modern resolutions. Yes, this would break old libraries. New libraries should have to cater to this change or NI should figure a way to scale the photos despite the larger the scaling, the more distorted the photo becomes.

Search... is pretty much non-existent in Kontakt. The whole tagging system needs to be redone.

The library tab is stupid. Get rid of it. It was fine when we had 20 libraries. Now with several hundred, it's just a pointless pain in the ass. Don't even get me started on trying to organise that thing.

Overall, the user end experience has not aged well and what is worse is that Kontakt 6 was an absolute joke of an update that they had the nerve to charge users for. Years of development and that is what we ended up with.

So yes, it's no wonder that many companies want to bail. The difference is that they are all coming out with brand new products. These things take years of hashing out issues and figuring things out. It took EastWest4 versions of Play and quite a few years to become something I felt okay using. All these new players are in their infancy and it's going to take these companies a lot of time and work to hash them out properly to be something that can compare to use for the end user. I really had hoped that Falcon would become a possible competitor but UVI pretty much flushed those hopes down the toilet by doing practically nothing with it.

I am still holding on to hope that Best Service will knock it out of the park with Engine 3. It's been in development for quite a few years now and if they have managed to create a good product with a completely revamped GUI that is more user friendly and convince a few major developers to take a chance with it, then it could be that NI would feel some actual pressure and be forced to make some long needed changes lest more developers bail on their player.


----------



## AudioLoco (Feb 6, 2022)

Sine is a bit unstable on my system, which is pretty uncrushable with Kontakt only.

Also, why do articulations have to be giant buttons on different scrollable pages instead of all concentrated where I could see them???

The SF player works OK for me, apart from a couple of authorization issues I had, it works. 

Kontakt is rock solid and it is a time saver when installing stuff to have one thingy to rule them all.


----------



## Markrs (Feb 6, 2022)

I've not had that many issues with the various company sample players. Personal favourite is Opus, which is incredibly well done. I think Soundpaint is very nice too, though a bit different, and waiting on elements like legato to be released. 

I never liked the idea of there being just one main sampler that is used. I would have been happier to see more independent Samplers rather than those developed by sample, but I feel these companies need more control over a core technology they use. I also think Security/pirarcy is a reason they have developed their own players.


----------



## StefanoM (Feb 6, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I've not had that many issues with the various company sample players. Personal favourite is Opus, which is incredibly well done. I think Soundpaint is very nice too, though a bit different, and waiting on elements like legato to be released.
> 
> I never liked the idea of there being just one main sampler that is used. I would have been happier to see more independent Samplers rather than those developed by sample, but I feel these companies need more control over a core technology they use. I also think Security/pirarcy is a reason they have developed their own players.


Yeah,

I think that is the only "main" reason., indeed.

Then there are other reasons...like Features, Control on the entire project, etc.

But Piracy is the BIG reason.


----------



## MusicIstheBest (Feb 6, 2022)

Hi, I'm just here for the memes.


----------



## RobbertZH (Feb 6, 2022)

I have Kontakt, UVI Falcon, BestService Engine, Spitfire, in since today also Sine.

The problem with all these different players is that you need to learn how they work.
I know how to operate Kontakt. But today I bought two solo woodwinds from Orchestral Tools and so have to spend some time learning reading the manual, watching videos about Sine. Time I could spend to more usefull activities, like actually making music.

And as these different players often stream samples from your harddisk, if you have two or more different players running, maybe they could cause a priority conflict (which player gets the most CPU and harddisk cycles to stream samples).

I don't understand those that praise propietary players that will only support libraries from those companies only. For example Spitfire, Sine, etc. Because of this, they will never replace players that support libraries from third parties (like Kontakt, UVI, etc). And for people like me that have many Kontakt libraries (from Native Instruments and from third parties), I still want to use them in the far future, so I hope that Native Instruments also stays in existance for a very long time.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Feb 6, 2022)

The issue isn’t the move to new players, per se.

The issue is that the players are being tasked with taking on roles outside music making. Integrated download managers, stores. It’s very much building castles on sand and reams of gaffer tape.


----------



## Casiquire (Feb 6, 2022)

A lot of times what gets lost in this conversation is that going proprietary isn't always a choice but a necessity. We knew this from way back in the days of Play 1.0. Kontakt is limited. EW wouldn't have been able to do everything they wanted with Hollywood Strings in Kontakt. Spitfire wouldn't have been able to offer all their BBCSO mics in one patch. Also guys, kontakt isn't that great either. We're just more used to it


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 6, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> The issue isn’t the move to new players, per se.
> 
> The issue is that the players are being tasked with taking on roles outside music making. Integrated download managers, stores. It’s very much building castles on sand and reams of gaffer tape.


As far as I know only Sine does that, and I wish they’d restrict it to the standalone and not include it in the plugin version.


----------



## TomislavEP (Feb 6, 2022)

Personally, I prefer working with as few different players as possible. A long-time Komplete user, I rarely venture outside the Kontakt ecosystem, occasionally with Reaktor and Guitar Rig. Most of my 3rd party libraries are made for Kontakt but I make an exception with Spitfire Player for certain gems, the Originals and Labs in particular. These series are (IMO) too good to be missed despite the shortcomings of the player itself.

As a strong supporter of freeware, I welcome the initiative of Decent Sampler developer that aims to unlock the world of Pianobook to those without a full version of Kontakt. To be honest, if I were starting today, I would probably try to get as most out of various free or affordable quality resources that are available these days while filling out any irreplaceable gaps with the libraries that work in Kontakt Player. So far I haven't really ventured into making my own instruments, so I tend to look at these various platforms mostly as playback engines. And I still find Kontakt to be the most flexible one and also very stable and reliable.


----------



## dunamisstudio (Feb 6, 2022)

Besides Kontakt, Synchron Player has been my favorite. I can use Spitfire Player without issue. I have only the free stuff on Sine. I would prefer everything in one place but I'll just deal with it now.


----------



## Kent (Feb 6, 2022)

As a dev…

1. Kontakt itself is a proprietary player.
2. It is naïve to assume that ‘other’ proprietary players are not made with UX as a _primary_ concern.
3. If Kontakt were better at doing x, y, or z (despite being better at a, b, and c) we’d see a lot less ‘competition’ that addresses those x/y/z issues. That the average VI-Controller tends to prioritize abc over xyz does not mean that those latter issues are not worth devs’ time and attention. 

All told, in fact, this forum represents a very visible but incredibly small sliver of the virtual instrument market. We are lucky and privileged to be able to interact with these products and these developers in the manner that we do.

I would advocate for having compassion on those who do not, and seek to meet them where they are, rather than gatekeep access to digital music creation based on (frankly) mostly-hypothetical concerns. Alternatives do not arise when the accepted standard is sufficient (see the last 40 years of MIDI 1.0 as an example—only now do we have the consumer-accessible computational power to attempt/require a new standard, which is also officially ‘MIDI’).

I love Kontakt for what it does well. Other players do other things well, and that is okay too!


----------



## Alex Fraser (Feb 6, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Also guys, kontakt isn't that great either. We're just more used to it


😅 Imagine if it was released today. I can see the 50 page thread already..


----------



## Scripter (Feb 6, 2022)

gsilbers said:


>


Absolutely but yeah Kontakt is just nice besides that and the fact that they still have no easier possibility to design a interface - it's tedious af.


----------



## Robo Rivard (Feb 6, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


>


This all I ask. The developers who listen will get my money.


----------



## Mike Greene (Feb 6, 2022)

gsilbers said:


>





Dr.Quest said:


> This has been discussed many times here and it doesn't seem to factor in. Mike Greene says it just isn't that much as do other developers. This seems to be a myth that doesn't ever go away and it is never backed up by anything.


To clarify, the pricing is reasonable IMO, although others may have their own opinion on what's "reasonable."

Pricing aside, _"Make it easier for small developers"_ is a real thing, though. The encoding process is insane now. You have to submit artwork in a million sizes and specifications, you have to submit audio demos in ogg format (never heard of ogg? Me neither) at specific lengths and levels, and the MIDI associated with that ogg file is limited to certain specifications. And of course, you have to incorporate their NKS knobs ... using Maschine software. Yes, Maschine, not Kontakt or even Komplete Kontrol! And you have to incorporate these knobs to _their_ specifications, where they often disagree with you on how they should be implemented.

I finally got all of that figured out and feel comfortable with it now, but it's still at least a week of extra work. _Extra_ work, that has nothing to do with the instrument itself. And after that, at least a month waiting for encoding and passing "inspection."

The first time I did this NKS process, it took about a _month_ of extra work. Yes, a month! For starters, Maschine (not just Maschine, but the developer mode for it) is not at all intuitive for someone coming from the Kontakt world, and there are a lot of little gotchas you have to figure out.

For instance, the basic act of saving my work (in the developer version of Machine) took me a long time to figure out. Such a long time that on my first NKS instrument (Fingerpick), I actually gave up. I simply couldn't figure out how to save the instrument, but ... I could save presets, so I turned it in that way and asked Rembert (the guy who handles the encoding) to transfer the preset data to the nki for me. To his credit, he helped me out with that. (The staff is totally cool. The _process_ is not.) Another example - if you want to encode for a specific version of Kontakt, then it's a process in and of itself just to figure that out, and not wind up with your instrument inadvertently bumped to K6.6.

A developer with a large staff can simply assign this to someone (and pay that guy, of course), and if they're cranking out multiple libraries every year, it becomes easy and it's worth it. But for a smaller developer (to the point of Gmo's meme), this is a huge extra burden, and I still resent it.


----------



## jonathanwright (Feb 6, 2022)

I don’t mind using different players, but I’m finding Spitfire’s method of releasing a separate player for almost every release a bit much. The differing plugins start to mount up quickly.

The unified approach such as in SINE is far easier to manage.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 6, 2022)

KEM said:


> A stupid one!!


There are three different octave designation systems used by various software. Germans tend to use C3 = middle C, USA tends to use C4 = middle C, and then there are weird outliers who say "negative octaves shouldn't exist" (Cakewalk and FL Studio), so C5 = middle C.



Batwaffel said:


> They have gotten very lazy with it for quite some time.


Again this is patently false, and this is speaking from experience and knowing the actual people who work on Kontakt.

People don't seem to undersand how complicated the whole UI situation is. It's not something that can be done in a year. Or several, even. And you cannot just throw any haphazard half-baked "solution" at that particular problem.

Tech debt is a real bitch.


----------



## KEM (Feb 6, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> There are three different octave designation systems used by various software. Germans tend to use C3 = middle C, USA tends to use C4 = middle C, and then there are weird outliers who say "negative octaves shouldn't exist" (Cakewalk and FL Studio), so C5 = middle C.



Yeah I started on FL and a lot of my friends are beatmakers so they still use FL, always thought that was about the dumbest thing ever and doesn’t translate to literally anything else


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 6, 2022)

Batwaffel said:


> then it could be that NI would feel some actual pressure and be forced to make some long needed changes lest more developers bail on their player.


Has it perhaps occured to you that NI might _already be working_ on some of those long needed changes? And that new Kontakt library developers are constantly joining the fold, it's not at all the case that "all rats are abandoning the ship"! Plus even those that are "leaving" are still developing libraries for Kontakt since it simply has wider market reach. You cannot beat the numbers.


----------



## chillbot (Feb 6, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> then there are weird outliers who say "negative octaves shouldn't exist" (Cakewalk and FL Studio), so C5 = middle C


I thought you were joking I had to go look. In 30 years of using Cakewalk I've never noticed this, ha.

Middle C is C4, to me, always has been. I just like the ideal of starting the keyboard with A0.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 6, 2022)

When I'm joking I usually end things with an emoticon, or something.  (Prior statement excluded.)


----------



## chillbot (Feb 6, 2022)

I don't have to use emoticons for clarification because I am never serious.


----------



## PrimeEagle (Feb 6, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> you have to submit audio demos in ogg format (never heard of ogg? Me neither)


Ogg is a fairly well-known high quality audio format that is optimized for streaming. It's open source and has been around for almost 20 years. It is used in the gaming industry, but also in other types of software.


----------



## szczaw (Feb 6, 2022)

Everything should move to Opus. They have some sequencing there as well. Maybe they could turn it into a DAW.


----------



## rgames (Feb 6, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> People don't seem to undersand how complicated the whole UI situation is. It's not something that can be done in a year. Or several, even.


Other developers dealt with required UI changes just fine. It's not like 4k resolutions are a new thing. They've been common for nearly a decade and available for probably two decades.

Kontakt is the *only* software I use that I have to squint at because of its antiquated UI.

rgames


----------



## NoamL (Feb 6, 2022)

RobbertZH said:


> The problem with all these different players is that you need to learn how they work.
> I know how to operate Kontakt. But today I bought two solo woodwinds from Orchestral Tools and so have to spend some time learning reading the manual, watching videos about Sine. Time I could spend to more usefull activities, like actually making music.


This is yet one more reason why I think working composers will drift towards using 1 or 2 main samplers in their templates (besides the rock-solid Kontakt). As @TomislavEP said too, it's just easier.




Mike Greene said:


> To clarify, the pricing is reasonable IMO, although others may have their own opinion on what's "reasonable."
> 
> Pricing aside, _"Make it easier for small developers"_ is a real thing, though. The encoding process is insane now. You have to submit artwork in a million sizes and specifications, you have to submit audio demos in ogg format (never heard of ogg? Me neither) at specific lengths and levels, and the MIDI associated with that ogg file is limited to certain specifications. And of course, you have to incorporate their NKS knobs ... using Maschine software. Yes, Maschine, not Kontakt or even Komplete Kontrol! And you have to incorporate these knobs to _their_ specifications, where they often disagree with you on how they should be implemented.
> 
> ...


When CineSamples did their announcement about MUSIO, Mike said they were anticipating a benefit of being able to upload & sell their libraries promptly after QA. That made me wonder exactly how much of a PITA the NI encoding process is and how long it takes. Thanks for the glimpse behind the scenes.


----------



## Kent (Feb 6, 2022)

PrimeEagle said:


> Ogg is a fairly well-known high quality audio format that is optimized for streaming. It's open source and has been around for almost 20 years. It is used in the gaming industry, but also in other types of software.


I love how it's named 'Vorbis' after 'Exquisitor Vorbis', but 'Ogg' is not named after 'Nanny Ogg.'

What are the og̶g̶dds?

GNU Terry Pratchett


----------



## Mike Greene (Feb 6, 2022)

PrimeEagle said:


> Ogg is a fairly well-known high quality audio format that is optimized for streaming. It's open source and has been around for almost 20 years. It is used in the gaming industry, but also in other types of software.


I'm sure ogg is a wonderful format, but I think you're missing the point. The point is I had never heard of it. I'm not a streaming or game developer, I'm a producer and composer, and all my submissions have been wave or mp3s. OGG isn't even a bounce option in Logic, nor is it in Pro Tools. So in the long list of things I have to submit, having this added to the list is an annoyance. I don't argue that it's not a great format, and I don't even doubt NI has good reasons for using it, but it's still an annoyance on my end, piled on to all the other annoyances. Granted, the conversion is easy ... but only AFTER you learn how, and AFTER you do the research on which app to use.

So whether I _should_ have already known about the wonders of ogg, I didn't. And whether I _should_ have already known what an svg image file is, I didn't. And whether I _should_ have already known how to use Maschine, I didn't.

The larger point is that I already created the library. But now I have to add another week of work doing other stuff. And when you get right down to it, most of that work is more about making NKS keyboards more attractive, rather than making my library better. Hence my resentment.

For those interested, here's the list we're supposed to check. I'm showing this because it shows another example of what's so frustrating in this process, which is, apropos of this post, that ogg files aren't even on this list. (They're supposed to be in the Instruments folder.) That's because many of the instructions we have are inconsistent or incomplete. In this case (final deliverables), there is literally no single page we can check to make sure we got it all. (I've made my own master list.)


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 6, 2022)

I dont think i made this one correctly


----------



## Robo Rivard (Feb 6, 2022)

In my dreams, VSL would buy all of Eduardo Tarilonte's libraries, and synchronize them. Engine is a dead player.


----------



## TonalDynamics (Feb 6, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


>


FLAWLESS photoshop skills


----------



## AMBi (Feb 6, 2022)

Robo Rivard said:


> Engine is a dead player.


Engine poisoned my water supply, burned my crops, and delivered a plague unto my house I’ll never forgive it for being what it is


----------



## Batwaffel (Feb 7, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> Has it perhaps occured to you that NI might _already be working_ on some of those long needed changes? And that new Kontakt library developers are constantly joining the fold, it's not at all the case that "all rats are abandoning the ship"! Plus even those that are "leaving" are still developing libraries for Kontakt since it simply has wider market reach. You cannot beat the numbers.





EvilDragon said:


> Again this is patently false, and this is speaking from experience and knowing the actual people who work on Kontakt.
> 
> People don't seem to undersand how complicated the whole UI situation is. It's not something that can be done in a year. Or several, even. And you cannot just throw any haphazard half-baked "solution" at that particular problem.
> 
> Tech debt is a real bitch.


Again, this isn't a new issue. This is something that has been an issue for a _very _long time. If they haven't fixed it by now, there isn't a whole lot of hope in it getting fixed at all. I am not a programmer, my focus is purely on the user end of things and on that end, NI isn't performing when it comes to the things we as users need or expect it to in 2022. 

The only reason that many of these developers haven't bailed on Kontakt is because of the lack of competition in the field. I guarantee you based on the many conversations I've had, you'd see a massive change there if there was a player that came out with the same capabilities of Kontakt.


----------



## Batwaffel (Feb 7, 2022)

Robo Rivard said:


> In my dreams, VSL would buy all of Eduardo Tarilonte's libraries, and synchronize them. Engine is a dead player.


Engine 3 has been in development for quite a few years now. I expect we'll be hearing news about it soon.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 7, 2022)

rgames said:


> Other developers dealt with required UI changes just fine.


Other developers don't use homebrew bitmap-based UI toolkits from 20 years ago. This is a huge, huge issue that cannot be easily worked around. It's hard to explain to a non-programmer why this is so. But it just is.



rgames said:


> They've been common for nearly a decade


No, they were niche for the better part of the decade. They're still kinda niche, since 1920x1080 is by far still the most widespread resolution out there.

EDIT: Even that is wrong, looks like 1280x800 is the most widespread!



Batwaffel said:


> If they haven't fixed it by now, there isn't a whole lot of hope in it getting fixed at all.


That is a very wrong way to think about this issue. Again, the UI issue is something that cannot be solved in a year. Especially not when Apple throws a new curveball at devs every 6-12 months or so.


----------



## lux (Feb 7, 2022)

Have to say that I just recently got into Spitfire player with BBC, and found its semplicity pretty straightforward, and I was not even remotely sure it was a good move. I got a few more player based products after that and planning to get more.

NI it's not making things simple for small developers. I would, as example, encourage devs by offering an easy framework with a few nice looking basic features (like those included in the default libraries such Analog Dreams, Hybrid Keys and the like), so developers can focus their efforts on artistic direction of sampling and patches programming. Which is basically what we composers really need for our music.

If you force a small developer to script from scratch even the most basic features you're basically asking them to allocate their time/money budget in large amounts on stuff which is not core business to the musical goal of the sample library. It means less time for focusing on the concept, checking samples quality, less money for studio and gear. Less money/time to create something really musical and connected to the final usage of a sample library.

I don't think license scheme is what really prevents small devs from joining NI party. It changed in time and all in all it's relatively reasonable, if you got a nice musical idea in mind as developer.

I think complex scripting should be limited to advanced and innovative features where it really adds value. That is a plus for those who what to get that root. But scripting an arpeggiator, gate sequencer or envelopes is just wasting developers' money, no matter what. Go figure scripting knobs.


----------



## Simon Ravn (Feb 7, 2022)

Batwaffel said:


> I've been saying for years that NI needs some actual competition for Kontakt. They have gotten very lazy with it for quite some time.
> 
> The library tab is stupid. Get rid of it. It was fine when we had 20 libraries. Now with several hundred, it's just a pointless pain in the ass. Don't even get me started on trying to organise that thing.



I actually use the library tab. I generally just search for what I am looking for, and it is a pretty speedy process to find a specific library that way. Certainly faster than browsing the file system.


----------



## Loïc D (Feb 7, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> I'm sure ogg is a wonderful format, but I think you're missing the point. The point is I had never heard of it. I'm not a streaming or game developer, I'm a producer and composer, and all my submissions have been wave or mp3s. OGG isn't even a bounce option in Logic, nor is it in Pro Tools. So in the long list of things I have to submit, having this added to the list is an annoyance. I don't argue that it's not a great format, and I don't even doubt NI has good reasons for using it, but it's still an annoyance on my end, piled on to all the other annoyances. Granted, the conversion is easy ... but only AFTER you learn how, and AFTER you do the research on which app to use.
> 
> So whether I _should_ have already known about the wonders of ogg, I didn't. And whether I _should_ have already known what an svg image file is, I didn't. And whether I _should_ have already known how to use Maschine, I didn't.
> 
> ...


???
Ogg format sounds very 1990-2000.
It once was a candidate to replace mp3 because of the mp3 licence but never managed to do it (probably because of the lack of hardware & software support, remember mp3 players?  )
It later became a niche format and is not supported anymore in many DAW.

As for SVG format, what the point in providing scalar vector graphics for a non-resizable UI ?

That’s pretty absurd and looks like processes dating back from early Kontakt version (but I’m no Kontakt developer).


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 7, 2022)

You provide SVGs for marketing material and certain NKS assets, not your library's GUI. Also last time I checked that was optional.

EDIT: Yep it's optional, you can either provide highest quality raster image format that you have (including PSD), or SVG, for source material.


----------



## RobbertZH (Feb 7, 2022)

Many people write how wonderful the Spitfire player, Sine player or any other proprietary player is and that third party developers who now use Kontakt, Bestservice Engine, etc should move to those new players. 

It is one thing for a company to develop a new player and port their existing libraries to the new player and develop new libraries for the new player. They only have to instruct their development and sample lib team how to do it.

It is however totally different to let third parties release a library for your new player. Then you need to allocated people to provide customer support for those third party library developers (and for customers of the libraries, this means you and me) and address the request for new functionality (which the company itself may not need). It seems to me this is so bothersome that Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, etc, will not go that route.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 7, 2022)

I don't think any of these new sample players were even created to support 3rd parties in the way Kontakt does (except UVI and Gorilla Engine). They are all created with a particular niche or problem to solve in mind.


----------



## robgb (Feb 7, 2022)

jamwerks said:


> If you don't like them, then don't use them (or buy them). Done!


That's my philosophy, too. So I don't buy them.


----------



## robgb (Feb 7, 2022)

rgames said:


> I'd be happy to let Kontakt die. Seems NI feels the same way.


Nonsense. I can tell you with great confidence that Kontakt is actively continuing work on Kontakt, and thank god for that. It's still the king.


----------



## robgb (Feb 7, 2022)

KEM said:


> If SINE was a stable as Kontakt I think everyone would see how good it is, hopefully that’ll come with time. Spitfire Player just sucks in every aspect


Can you go behind the wrench on SINE? If not, stability is not the issue. I'm surprised that so many people are willing to settle for a Rompler over an actual Sampler. But each to his own.


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 7, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Feb 7, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Feb 7, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Feb 7, 2022)




----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 7, 2022)

Now we have this thread back on track!


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 7, 2022)

imho. Native Instruments is around today because of Kontakt. It is their primary $$$ generating application.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 7, 2022)

It's absolutely not _just _because of Kontakt. Hardware sales are also a sizable chunk of the revenue.


----------



## robgb (Feb 7, 2022)

I really don't understand the Kontakt disses. It's simply the most powerful tool we have for sample libraries, and it's accessible to everyone, including idiots like me. I can't tell you how many times I've had to go under the hood to fix things the sample developers can't be bothered with. This option is crucial to me, along with the ability to create my own sample libraries or completely rework existing ones. None of these new players allow me to do that.

It seems to me that those who complain about Kontakt are interested only in Romplers.


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 7, 2022)

robgb said:


> Can you go behind the wrench on SINE? If not, stability is not the issue. I'm surprised that so many people are willing to settle for a Rompler over an actual Sampler. But each to his own.


Except increasingly this isn't true for Kontakt player libraries. I have several Kontakt player libraries now where I can't go behind the wrench, so I can have a Kontakt player rompler or a proprietary player rompler. And in general the proprietary players are better suited to the functionality of the libraries than is the case with closed Kontakt player libraries.


----------



## robgb (Feb 7, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Except increasingly this isn't true for Kontakt player libraries. I have several Kontakt player libraries now where I can't go behind the wrench, so I can have a Kontakt player rompler or a proprietary player rompler. And in general the proprietary players are better suited to the functionality of the libraries than is the case with closed Kontakt player libraries.


The only time I've found this is with legato patches. I assume this is because the developer wants to protect their legato scripting. But I have yet to encounter a library that is completely closed and such patches are the exception not the rule.

And I'm sorry, but it's my understanding that the Kontakt versions of several of the SINE libraries are superior to the SINE versions. At least that's what I've been told.


----------



## Hadrondrift (Feb 7, 2022)

robgb said:


> I really don't understand the Kontakt disses.


My only concern is the small GUI on modern screens.


----------



## doctoremmet (Feb 7, 2022)

robgb said:


> It seems to me that those who complain about Kontakt are interested only in Romplers.


This is a bit hyperbolic now isn’t it? I complained about Kontakt in this thread, specifically about the terribly dated UI. This does not automatically imply I am only interested in romplers. In fact, that entire statement defeats all logic, sorry. The fact that people can have legitimate complaints about one of their musical tools, does not mean they don’t like the entire musical tool, or only like players / romplers. It just means they have a particular complaint


----------



## Kent (Feb 7, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> The fact that people can have legitimate complaints about one of their musical tools, does not mean they don’t like the entire musical tool, or only like players / romplers. It just means they have a particular complaint


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy 

you'll see a lot of the above on this forum


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 7, 2022)

robgb said:


> The only time I've found this is with legato patches. I assume this is because the developer wants to protect their legato scripting. But I have yet to encounter a library that is completely closed and such patches are the exception not the rule.


No, for Albion Solstice, for instance, the whole library is closed. Landforms as well. It seems like I've had a few other recent libraries, but I know those two are closed to going behind the wrench.



robgb said:


> And I'm sorry, but it's my understanding that the Kontakt versions of several of the SINE libraries are superior to the SINE versions. At least that's what I've been told.


You shouldn't believe everything you are told. As someone who has many of the OT instruments in both Kontakt and Sine, I prefer Sine in almost every case. Which isn't the same as saying that Sine couldn't stand to be vastly improved. Or that everyone prefers Sine to Kontakt. Obviously not, since there are many who have had real issues with Sine and have complained loudly about it. But if you read the Sine threads, you will find many complaining about Sine, yes, but many others who see Sine as a significant improvement over OT instruments in Kontakt.


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 7, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> My only concern is the small GUI on modern screens.


----------



## doctoremmet (Feb 7, 2022)

Kent said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
> 
> you'll see a lot of the above on this forum


Wait. Am I guilty of that? Haha, if so completely unintentional - I can assure you Kent. Anyway… I just read Rob’s post and his logic struck me as… kind of not logical. But who cares at the end of the day. I am sure noone does, so I’ll proceed and make some music. In fact, I was just using Kontakt, a most excellent musical instrument.


----------



## cuttime (Feb 7, 2022)

Kent said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
> 
> you'll see a lot of the above on this forum


Perhaps the Nirvana fallacy, also?:




__





Nirvana fallacy - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Kent (Feb 7, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Wait. Am I guilty of that? Haha, if so completely unintentional - I can assure you Kent. Anyway… I just read Rob’s post and his logic struck me as… kind of not logical. But who cares at the end of the day. I am sure noone does, so I’ll proceed and make some music. In fact, I was just using Kontakt, a most excellent musical instrument.


Ah no I was saying that such discourse here _in general_ tends to make impassioned and easily-falsifiable claims and then when those claims are threatened the more legitimate and conservative stance is the one defended. It was not a personal or specific point


----------



## doctoremmet (Feb 7, 2022)

Kent said:


> Ah no I was saying that such discourse here _in general_ tends to make impassioned and easily-falsifiable claims and then when those claims are threatened the more legitimate and conservative stance is the one defended. It was not a personal or specific point


Gotcha. I really should read up on this - it is interesting for sure but I only know about these things on a basic and intuitive level. And I am also sure I am probably making weird argumentations all the time, so it helps to be aware of such things. Thanks!


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 7, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Feb 7, 2022)




----------



## robgb (Feb 7, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> This is a bit hyperbolic now isn’t it? I complained about Kontakt in this thread, specifically about the terribly dated UI. This does not automatically imply I am only interested in romplers. In fact, that entire statement defeats all logic, sorry. The fact that people can have legitimate complaints about one of their musical tools, does not mean they don’t like the entire musical tool, or only like players / romplers. It just means they have a particular complaint


Point taken. My apologies.


----------



## doctoremmet (Feb 7, 2022)

robgb said:


> Point taken. My apologies.


No problem Rob!


----------



## rgames (Feb 7, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> No, they were niche for the better part of the decade. They're still kinda niche, since 1920x1080 is by far still the most widespread resolution out there.


"Common" doesn't mean "majority". It just means... well... common, as in not unexpected and not unusual. But not necessarily majority.

4k monitors are definitely common and have been for a while, especially among people who make use of music tech, hence the reason why pretty much every music software developer has adapted in some manner. If NI thinks 4k resolution (or high DPI in general) is uncommon enough to ignore it then I guess that's part of the problem.

Again, Kontakt is the only software I use that hasn't adapted. All the other devs think 4k is common enough to adapt.

rgames


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 7, 2022)

"All the other devs" is a gross overgeneralization. There's a number of devs who haven't adapted yet. AIR Music for example. Steinberg's own HALion. Some Waldorf plugins too (Largo, say). Eventide. Soundtoys. The list goes on.

Also don't forget NI does have opt-out usage data tracking, so they know which resolutions are most common for the majority of their userbase. And if you think that majority of users disable this, think again.


----------



## Casiquire (Feb 7, 2022)

robgb said:


> Can you go behind the wrench on SINE?


Can you upload as many samples or lines of code into kontakt as you want? 😛


----------



## mscp (Feb 7, 2022)

I wish there was a hardware ROMpler that all these devs made libraries for..this way, I'd have one (or several - one for each developer) racked in a 19" rack. Bish, bash, bosh. No issues. No updates, no BS.


----------



## MelodicAdagio (Feb 7, 2022)

I don't for a second discount the problems reported by various people with some of the non-Kontakt sample players. I just haven't encountered them--crashes and whatnot. Perhaps my workflow is different. SINE, Opus, Synchron Player, Spitfire Player--all have performed without issue for me. That's not to say improvements couldn't be made. 

I have plenty of Kontakt libraries, as well. Kontakt, of course, works fine, and it's familiar through long use, though improvements could certainly be made there also. So I don't really have any issues with the various proprietary players as long as they allow me to do what I'm trying to do with a minimum of hassle--and as long as they continue to improve their products and address user concerns.


----------



## Wunderhorn (Feb 7, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> Also don't forget NI does have opt-out usage data tracking, so they know which resolutions are most common for the majority of their userbase. And if you think that majority of users disable this, think again.


I bet that statistically more people with 4k screens will opt out than people with lower configurations.
Though it does not matter. We all know that Kontakt needs a new GUI, there devs will hear that probably all day long.

Before that though - as much as I would like to be able to take off my extra pair of spectacles - I would like to see sandboxing options and or other measures to prevent crashes, especially those that are caused by various libraries' scripting. A start would also be a better debugging system, so we could find out across many Kontakt multis which instrument caused the crash when it happens.


----------



## Troels Folmann (Feb 7, 2022)

Imagine we were all still using Akai S900 samplers ...

The future of more advanced instruments is one that requires more advanced technologies too.

We have hit the roof of what is achievable with conventional means - and with conventional I mean the same technologies we’ve all been using for the last two decades.

I would agree that there are relatively simplified samplers out there that don’t add much to the equation other than looking fancy. But overall speaking the fidelity/playability of software instruments is as good as the technology behind them and we need new technologies to push this forward. This is the primary reason we've spent the last 8 years designing a new audio format from the ground up and other devs advancing their technologies too.


----------



## Wunderhorn (Feb 7, 2022)

Troels Folmann said:


> Imagine we were all still using Akai S900 samplers ...
> 
> The future of more advanced instruments is one that requires more advanced technologies too.
> 
> ...


... and the noble thing would be to take the blueprints of such technology to a round table and open it up for other devs to chip in and create a shared platform where it is about who offers what library instead of who offers which player with which features.

The more advanced things get the more complex they get the more problematic quality control becomes and essentially in the end it turns into a huge headache for users.

Look, the proof is in the pudding. Right here on this thread! There a plenty of people who say "Player X is crashing on my constantly" while there are others with sometimes even similar specs report that it runs just fine.

Most technical issues today are more and more of the nature that you can't reproduce them, can't track them. Guess how many times I did _NOT_ open a support case because I can't even reliably reproduce an issue just for demonstration's sake for myself! (Yes, with over 30 years computer experience).
Not opening a case for it does not mean that the problem isn't there.
And people (especially devs) wonder why there is so much frustration being expressed in forums and threads like these.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 7, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> I would like to see sandboxing options and or other measures to prevent crashes, especially those that are caused by various libraries' scripting. A start would also be a better debugging system, so we could find out across many Kontakt multis which instrument caused the crash when it happens.


This would hurt the performance quite a lot. But also, debugging is possible across multiple simultaneously loaded instruments in a single Kontakt instance with Creator Tools.

That said, scripting engine of Kontakt is almost never the cause of any crashes.


----------



## Wunderhorn (Feb 7, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> This would hurt the performance quite a lot.


Perhaps. That is why I said "option". Engage it when necessary, turn off for regular use.



EvilDragon said:


> But also, debugging is possible across multiple simultaneously loaded instruments in a single Kontakt instance with Creator Tools.


We need that across all open Kontakt instances (also when hosted in VEP).
Also, it should be possible for normal users to find out which instrument is causing issues so they can pass on the information in their support ticket to the respective dev.
If a crash log could contain information about the offending instrument that would already be helpful.



EvilDragon said:


> That said, scripting engine of Kontakt is almost never the cause of any crashes.


Aside from Vienna support being told the opposite, what do you think is the weak spot then?
Kontakt sometimes just stops sounding, a click on the "!" sometimes helps, sometimes not.
Then there is occasionally a CPU leak (an instrument or multi suddenly going up to 100% while idling.)
Or Kontakt freezes for some reason, has to be force quit.
Or just a crash.
Most of the time these things are difficult or even impossible to trace or reproducible.
But still it happens.


----------



## gohrev (Feb 7, 2022)

Those of you who like EW's Opus engine: I tend to agree, but why couldn't they make their knobs and sliders more precise by allowing you to enter digits?? 

The faders and knobs are so preciously sensitive, nudge the Close mic fader just a tiny bit up, and it will overpower the other mic. Rotate the panning knob a tad to the left: Your harp has left the stage.


----------



## rgames (Feb 7, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> majority


common != majority


----------



## rgames (Feb 7, 2022)

Forget about the GUI issues for a moment - here's a benchmark:

Using the Synchron player, loading three full string libraries (Synchron Strings, Synchron Elite Strings and Synchronized Dimension Strings), two WW libraries (Sychron WW and Synchronized WW), one brass library (Synchron Brass) and just about every perc instrument in Synchron Perc (57 instruments) requires:

- under 2 minutes
- 23 GB RAM

Using Kontakt-based libraries it took me about 7-8 minutes and ~90 GB to do the same. Now it's true that some of that is due to the scripting but still, Kontakt is vastly inferior in terms of both load time and memory usage.

And then when I shut down it takes ~15 sec with the Synchron libraries vs. several minutes with Kontakt. Truth is I seldom waited with Kontakt - I just rebooted because it was faster.

Because of this dramatic increase in performance I no longer need a slave and I can work on my desktop or laptop with exactly the same samples. I could never do that with Kontakt.

Kontakt is way behind. And it has been for years. Yes it was top dog for a while. But so was Myspace.

rgames


----------



## Saxer (Feb 8, 2022)

I'm a Logic user and I'm happy if I don't have to use Kontakt a lot.

No problem in smaller templates but filling a template with Kontakt libraries blows the song file data to hundreds of MBs. With included auto-backups of the song file (which I really like to have) every song grows into GB size. A midi-song! Only with Kontakt, no other player or sampler or synth does that.

Small fonts and the mini edit window are a nightmare.

Kontakt loads slowly when loading the first time (first Kontakt instance of a song).

I often do collaborations with other studios. Getting a Logic or Cubase song with the same installed and authorized plugins and libraries on another system loads without problems - except Kontakt which can't find the same libraries on a different computer. You have to open every single instance and click on "search Spotlight" so the operating system can tell Kontakt where the libraries are located.

After updating Kontakt from 5 to 6 all songs still load with Kontakt 5. Have to manually update all templates.

And I never get CPU-spikes in other players. A lot of Kontakt libraries are CPU eaters. Sure it's library dependent but it doesn't happen here in Sine, Spit-Player, Synchron, Opus, Falcon... and beside Omnisphere's FX cascades or Audiomodeling instrument stacks Kontakt libraries are the hungriest and often with unexpected spikes. It's better since Kontakt 5.5 but I still think there's a CPU difference between AU and VST versions of Kontakt.

So I'm happy there are all these new sample players. I actually prefer them.


----------



## samphony (Feb 8, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> That said, scripting engine of Kontakt is almost never the cause of any crashes.


What is?


----------



## vms (Feb 8, 2022)

rgames said:


> Using Kontakt-based libraries it took me about 7-8 minutes and ~90 GB to do the same


I guess the sample amount and preload buffer are different from Synchron libraries.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 8, 2022)

rgames said:


> Using the Synchron player, loading three full string libraries (Synchron Strings, Synchron Elite Strings and Synchronized Dimension Strings), two WW libraries (Sychron WW and Synchronized WW), one brass library (Synchron Brass) and just about every perc instrument in Synchron Perc (57 instruments) requires:
> 
> - under 2 minutes
> - 23 GB RAM
> ...


That is not an apples to apples comparison. You don't know how those Synchron instruments are laid out internally. How's DFD set up and so on. Too many factors are different here to make it a fair comparison. So unless you know exactly how Synchron instruments are built "behind the wrench", and pit it against a Kontakt instrument built in the same way, you cannot make a proper and fair comparison or a benchmark. So what you just posted bears no value in the grand scheme of things. Sure you make it sound important, and it is important _to you personally_, and that is fine. But that does not make it a properly done comparison overall.

Also scripting doesn't take up a ton of RAM like that. Samples, number of loaded effects and modulators, maximum polyphony that is set per instrument, is Time Machine Pro used or not, and UI assets do.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 8, 2022)

Saxer said:


> No problem in smaller templates but filling a template with Kontakt libraries blows the song file data to hundreds of MBs. With included auto-backups of the song file (which I really like to have) every song grows into GB size. A midi-song! Only with Kontakt, no other player or sampler or synth does that.


UVI does that and is even worse. Virharmonic guys had tons of issues exactly because of this sort of thing.

Most other sample players also store sample path references and instrument data (= how many groups, zones, modulators, effects, scripts) into the project chunk. Because referencing patches on your hard drive directly is INSANE, since updating a patch on your hard drive would potentially totally change how your projects sounds and behaves, in worst case totally break them.


----------



## rgames (Feb 8, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> You don't know how those Synchron instruments are laid out internally.


Nor do I care. Nor do most composers care. DFD, preload buffers, purging... Who cares.

We want to load up some instruments and make music. At present, doing so is vastly easier with non-Kontakt libraries.

What comparable Kontakt libraries match that number of instruments/artics with load times under 2 minutes and memory footprint less than 25 GB? I have most of the options and they don't get anywhere close.

Maybe I am comparing apples and oranges. Please show us the Kontakt-based apples 

rgames


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 8, 2022)

rgames said:


> Nor do I care. Nor do most composers care. DFD, preload buffers, purging... Who cares.


You can speak for yourself but not project to everyone.


----------



## G_Erland (Feb 8, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> It’s been my most solid player. Not much functionality and it’s GUI is rather uninspired but solid.


Likewise - since 1.08 i can even load samples with the daw running - makes a horrible noise, but doesnt crash. And for me personally, the «simple» look is big part of its sell, if it looked like a fiddle with little knobs on the body and faders up the neck i would be the starter of this thread😂


----------



## robgb (Feb 8, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Can you upload as many samples or lines of code into kontakt as you want? 😛


I can certainly upload as many as I need.


----------



## robgb (Feb 8, 2022)

MelodicAdagio said:


> I don't for a second discount the problems reported by various people with some of the non-Kontakt sample players. I just haven't encountered them--crashes and whatnot.


Crashing isn't always the issue. Sometimes it's a matter of control.


----------



## robgb (Feb 8, 2022)

rgames said:


> Using the Synchron player, loading three full string libraries (Synchron Strings, Synchron Elite Strings and Synchronized Dimension Strings), two WW libraries (Sychron WW and Synchronized WW), one brass library (Synchron Brass) and just about every perc instrument in Synchron Perc (57 instruments) requires:
> 
> - under 2 minutes
> - 23 GB RAM


I don't use Synchron player and never have, so pardon my ignorance, but if you want to lower the volume of the release samples in Synchron, can you do that? If you need to retune a sample that's slightly off, can you do that?

If you don't like the way the legato sounds on a particular woodwind, can you offload all the legato samples and create a new instrument with your own custom scripting? Or use sustain samples and create a scripted legato patch?

Can you off load overly reverberant samples, batch apply a deverberator and then reload those samples for a drier instrument?

Can you go in and add an LP filter or a reverb or an EQ or saturation or any number of effects at the instrument level and save it so the patch always has those particular effects?

These are just a few things Kontakt allows you to do. If Synchron can do that too, sign me up.


----------



## Casiquire (Feb 8, 2022)

robgb said:


> I can certainly upload as many as I need.


Good for you, but that's not the case with many of the bigger devs out there and it's not an actual answer. The actual answer is no


----------



## Zhao Shen (Feb 8, 2022)

I would love new samplers. In theory, they should be able to disrupt Kontakt's market share with innovative new ideas. In practice, they're not good. I have my fair share of gripes with Kontakt (especially the poor options for library organization once you've accumulated many... Quick-load isn't fully featured enough). But it's still the best sample player on the market, and it's not even close.


----------



## robgb (Feb 8, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Good for you, but that's not the case with many of the bigger devs out there and it's not an actual answer. The actual answer is no


That may be true, but I'm worried about what works for me, not what works for other developers. And none of the Kontakt instruments I've bought seem to be lacking in samples, so...


----------



## Casiquire (Feb 8, 2022)

robgb said:


> That may be true, but I'm worried about what works for me, not what works for other developers. And none of the Kontakt instruments I've bought seem to be lacking in samples, so...


But you clearly do care what other devs are doing. You're in here trying to convince everyone kontakt is better


----------



## robgb (Feb 8, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> But you clearly do care what other devs are doing. You're in here trying to convince everyone kontakt is better


Sigh. Let's not be disingenuous about this. Kontakt IS better. There's simply no contest. The number of samples or code it can handle is irrelevant at this point. When someone manages to make a SAMPLER (not just a player but an actual sampler) that allows me to do more than what I can do with Kontakt, then I'll be happy to sing its praises.


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 8, 2022)

robgb said:


> Sigh. Let's not be disingenuous about this. Kontakt IS better. There's simply no contest. The number of samples or code it can handle is irrelevant at this point. When someone manages to make a SAMPLER (not just a player but an actual sampler) that allows me to do more than what I can do with Kontakt, then I'll be happy to sing its praises.


No, Kontakt may be better for your needs and uses, but it is not better for mine, and it is especially not better if you can't go behind the wrench, in which case Kontakt is almost always worse for my use. The OT libraries work almost uniformly better for me in Sine than in Kontakt. It isn't even close and that's taking into account that I can go behind the wrench and do all sorts of tweaks with the Kontakt version.


----------



## Mike Greene (Feb 8, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> The OT libraries work almost uniformly better for me in Sine than in Kontakt.


I'm curious about what ways Sine works better for you? Is it mostly around load times and reliability, or are there better features as well?


----------



## robgb (Feb 8, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> No, Kontakt may be better for your needs and uses, but it is not better for mine, and it is especially not better if you can't go behind the wrench, in which case Kontakt is almost always worse for my use. The OT libraries work almost uniformly better for me in Sine than in Kontakt. It isn't even close and that's taking into account that I can go behind the wrench and do all sorts of tweaks with the Kontakt version.


More power to you then. To each his own.


----------



## Saxer (Feb 8, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> I'm curious about what ways Sine works better for you? Is it mostly around load times and reliability, or are there better features as well?


In my case Sine takes about 20% of the CPU usage of the comparable Kontakt libraries. Might be a special case (Mac/Logic/AU) but it's incredible efficient here. And the song file size doesn't blow up like with Kontakt libraries.


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 8, 2022)

robgb said:


> More power to you then. To each his own.


You are the one trying to push the "Kontakt is better" line. I'm happy for you to say you prefer Kontakt and I don't doubt at all that it works better for.



Mike Greene said:


> I'm curious about what ways Sine works better for you? Is it mostly around load times and reliability, or are there better features as well?


I find Capsule squirrelly and it doesn't work all that well if you want to use keyswitches. You are limited to 12 keyswitches per instance, and the instances are restricted to which articulation you can load. This ultimately creates a lot of frictions. These frictions are not entirely eliminated in Sine but enough of them are that the whole operation is smoother. Load times are about the same as far as I can tell, but Sine will hang on reloading a project occasionally, so that's a net negative. RAM use overall seems lower in Sine but I don't make much use of purge, relying on Logic's don't load unused plugins feature. Reliability is also about the same: I get a lot of hung notes in Kontakt, very few in Sine. Although you can add legato transitions to most articulations in Capsule, the process is easier in Sine. 

Moving Berlin Strings from Kontakt to Sine has reduced the time it takes me to do a line considerably. It's still a fiddly library, but it is now on the order of my other string libraries to program, whereas it used to take about 50% more time. I'm not entirely sure where the time savings comes from except that the Sine version throws up fewer strange moments that have to be dealt with.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 8, 2022)

Capsule is unfortunately just not scripted very efficiently overall in Kontakt, as far as I can tell. That is not Kontakt's fault, that's fault of whoever programmed it.


----------



## G_Erland (Feb 8, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> You are the one trying to push the "Kontakt is better" line. I'm happy for you to say you prefer Kontakt and I don't doubt at all that it works better for.
> 
> 
> I find Capsule squirrelly and it doesn't work all that well if you want to use keyswitches. You are limited to 12 keyswitches per instance, and the instances are restricted to which articulation you can load. This ultimately creates a lot of frictions. These frictions are not entirely eliminated in Sine but enough of them are that the whole operation is smoother. Load times are about the same as far as I can tell, but Sine will hang on reloading a project occasionally, so that's a net negative. RAM use overall seems lower in Sine but I don't make much use of purge, relying on Logic's don't load unused plugins feature. Reliability is also about the same: I get a lot of hung notes in Kontakt, very few in Sine. Although you can add legato transitions to most articulations in Capsule, the process is easier in Sine.
> ...


Dont forget the mic routing, which is about 100 billion times easier


----------



## Casiquire (Feb 8, 2022)

robgb said:


> Sigh. Let's not be disingenuous about this. Kontakt IS better. There's simply no contest. The number of samples or code it can handle is irrelevant at this point. When someone manages to make a SAMPLER (not just a player but an actual sampler) that allows me to do more than what I can do with Kontakt, then I'll be happy to sing its praises.


It's not irrelevant, it's a global limitation that doesn't allow for some of the most popular libraries like BBCSO. And maybe YOU don't care about BBCSO, but that would be a disingenuous point. You'd be trying to convince everyone else kontakt is better, but then when someone points out ways on which it's not you'd hide in your shell behind "but that doesn't mean anything TO ME". Ok, then stop trying to convince other people if it's just about you. Accept their criticisms if it's not.


----------



## PrimeEagle (Feb 8, 2022)

It's strange that people are arguing about which program is better, when they are essentially different programs. Kontakt is a sampler, most of the others are just players. It's like arguing that Word is better than Excel because I'm trying to write a novel, or that Excel is better than Word because I'm doing my taxes. They're two different tools for different purposes. I guess the fact that Kontakt is actually a sampler + a player confuses the issue. Those that say Kontakt should go away and be replaced by one or more of the others don't seem to have a solution to the "sampler" part.


----------



## Casiquire (Feb 8, 2022)

PrimeEagle said:


> It's strange that people are arguing about which program is better, when they are essentially different programs. Kontakt is a sampler, most of the others are just players. It's like arguing that Word is better than Excel because I'm trying to write a novel, or that Excel is better than Word because I'm doing my taxes. They're two different tools for different purposes. I guess the fact that Kontakt is actually a sampler + a player confuses the issue. Those that say Kontakt should go away and be replaced by one or more of the others don't seem to have a solution to the "sampler" part.


That's fair, and I think an important part of the conversation isn't "which is better" it's "which is better _ for what?"_


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 8, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> Capsule is unfortunately just not scripted very efficiently overall in Kontakt, as far as I can tell. That is not Kontakt's fault, that's fault of whoever programmed it.


That’s a different issue and a fair point but doesn’t change the fact that OT libraries respond quite a lot better in Sine, at least for some of us. And really I’m agnostic on Kontakt and other players. I understand why companies would want their own players but It’s nice as a user to not have a situation of juggling a billion different player plugins. And the functionality of Kontakt itself has always been very high, even if I wish everything about it was bigger (old eyes).


----------



## Jrides (Feb 8, 2022)

robgb said:


> I don't use Synchron player and never have, so pardon my ignorance, but if you want to lower the volume of the release samples in Synchron, can you do that? If you need to retune a sample that's slightly off, can you do that?
> 
> If you don't like the way the legato sounds on a particular woodwind, can you offload all the legato samples and create a new instrument with your own custom scripting? Or use sustain samples and create a scripted legato patch?
> 
> ...


Can you do this with all Kontakt libraries? I was under the impression that a lot of libraries had the samples locked down in a way where you couldn’t rework them to create your own custom Legado and other fixes.


----------



## robgb (Feb 8, 2022)

Jrides said:


> Can you do this with all Kontakt libraries? I was under the impression that a lot of libraries had the samples locked down in a way where you couldn’t rework them to create your own custom Legado and other fixes.


Some of the developers put a lock on their legato patches, but I've only encountered this a few times. 99% of the time I'm able to make whatever changes I want to make.


----------



## MelodicAdagio (Feb 9, 2022)

robgb said:


> Crashing isn't always the issue. Sometimes it's a matter of control.


As I said, my workflow may be different than others who have issues with a given player. I may not encounter a potential problematic or annoying thing because I don't do things the same way as they might.


----------



## Composer 2021 (Feb 9, 2022)

Kontakt's user interface is awful. You can't make the player into a bigger window. Developers need to make their interfaces small to fit them into a Kontakt window. You can't show the keyboard and the full libraries list at the same time. Plenty of glitches from files not loading correctly and making you manually locate them every time. The price isn't horrible if you do the free library/crossgrade/sale thing, but the list price turns away a ton of casual musicians, who may turn away from developers who require Kontakt full. This hurts developers, who then make their own players to get more customers. If Kontakt wants to keep being relevant, they need to fix all of this!


----------



## labyrinths (Feb 9, 2022)

Composer 2021 said:


> Kontakt's user interface is awful. You can't make the player into a bigger window. Developers need to make their interfaces small to fit them into a Kontakt window.


I agree that a larger, scalable UI should be a priority (though for reasons I know @EvilDragon has explained here or elsewhere, there's a lot of work involved), but Kontakt has supported a nice wide format for a while now. Noire is the only library I own that takes advantage of that.


----------



## Jrides (Feb 9, 2022)

robgb said:


> Some of the developers put a lock on their legato patches, but I've only encountered this a few times. 99% of the time I'm able to make whatever changes I want to make.


Cool. Thanks. I wish there was a way to know ahead of time which developers locked their samples and the ones that don’t.


----------



## EvilDragon (Feb 9, 2022)

Composer 2021 said:


> You can't show the keyboard and the full libraries list at the same time.


How would you show the full libraries list once you have like 100+ libraries installed? Literally impossible.

Or, are you talking about Quick-Load? Fix for this is coming in next version of Kontakt (QL will go above virtual keyboard) 



Composer 2021 said:


> Plenty of glitches from files not loading correctly and making you manually locate them every time.


Not at all. Unless you move your libraires around all the time. Or you use external drives that randomly change their drive letter on Windows every time you reconnect them (rare). Maybe be a bit more precise about this? What exactly are you doing that it happens "every time"? As soon as you resave your DAW project after finding missing content, it is remembered.

Is this about non-Kontakt Player content? There's a solution for that in K6.6 onwards - explained in this post. (I should probably make it a thread.)



Composer 2021 said:


> The price isn't horrible if you do the free library/crossgrade/sale thing, but the list price turns away a ton of casual musicians, who may turn away from developers who require Kontakt full.


Nice story, not really substantiated by any proof. NI's numbers say otherwise. Also, majority of people get Kontakt through Komplete, not through individual purchase.



Composer 2021 said:


> This hurts developers, who then make their own players to get more customers.


Do you have any idea how much developing one's own sampler costs in hard cash and manhours? I bet ya it's far, far more than list price of Kontakt.  And then, once you make your own sampler, you are starting from ZERO, vs NI's established userbase of millions of people. Your story doesn't add up.


----------



## babylonwaves (Feb 9, 2022)

Jrides said:


> Cool. Thanks. I wish there was a way to know ahead of time which developers locked their samples and the ones that don’t.


just ask. you'll get an answer and you can base your decision on it.


----------



## Marsen (Feb 9, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> You are limited to 12 keyswitches per instance, and the instances are restricted to which articulation you can load. This ultimately creates a lot of frictions.


This just has about nothing to do with Kontakt, but alone with OT's Capsule programming. 
Because Capsule was not good enough, Sine is good?
Other developers show, how they can make "up to date" use of kontakt.
I don't want to sound mean. I just want to show a different view.

Look at the new Symphobia 1, which can handle 24 articulations in one instrument and even multis within one instance.

These arguments are just not on the point, if the whole discussion get's about comparing one developers engine choices.
Same with Spitfires kontakt libraries, which lots of 4k+ Monitor User get sick off, cause it's so tiny.
But then look at Insession Audio libs like World Percussion Creator or Taiko Creator. They are huge and good sized ( if you're not working with 1080P ).

To just blame kontakt for "not having a modern and useful gui" , is not the full truth.

Sure, there are advantages of new players.
If there wouldn't be any, they would be useless.

But for me, a real purge function like in kontakt, is much more useful then a smaller save file print.

So I do see the problems of Kontakt, but i also see the advantages.


----------



## Jrides (Feb 9, 2022)

babylonwaves said:


> just ask. you'll get an answer and you can base your decision on it.


Cool. Very simple and effective way to go about it. Thanks!


----------



## Getsumen (Feb 9, 2022)

Marsen said:


> This just has about nothing to do with Kontakt, but alone with OT's Capsule programming.
> Because Capsule was not good enough, Sine is good?
> Other developers show, how they can make "up to date" use of kontakt.
> I don't want to sound mean. I just want to show a different view.
> ...


To be fair Symphobia articulations are significantly less performance heavy compared to some OT stuff.

Could you imagine loading all of something like BST in one patch? Man the object memory alone would be like a gig or something lol


----------



## SergeD (Feb 9, 2022)

A request for a better Kontakt UI is like the guy asking to paint a bigger bird on his car. My God, are you crazy, it implies to dismantle all the mechanics under the hood, reinforce the engine and remodel a new frame that can handle that bird


----------



## MusicIstheBest (Feb 9, 2022)

My last post i think was auto-deleted, and so I read through the whole thread as recommended and haven't found my answer, so I'll ask again: Is there a difference in developing for the free kontakt player and the full version (besides the obvious license fees and native access registration) or is it all the same PITA for small developers?


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 9, 2022)

Marsen said:


> This just has about nothing to do with Kontakt, but alone with OT's Capsule programming.
> Because Capsule was not good enough, Sine is good?
> Other developers show, how they can make "up to date" use of kontakt.
> I don't want to sound mean. I just want to show a different view.
> ...


I don't think I've ever said Kontakt is bad. I've said my old eyes don't like that the fonts on the GUIs and behind the wrench tend to be very small, but I use and like plenty of Kontakt libraries. What I've said is that I prefer OT instruments on Sine to Kontakt. And I do! OT's programming for Capsule may well suck and be at fault. Who can say? But their instruments work better for me on Sine than on Kontakt. That's what matters. I have also said that I'm agnostic about the SF player. Their instruments work about as well for me on Kontakt as in their player and vice versa.


----------



## jbuhler (Feb 9, 2022)

MusicIstheBest said:


> My last post i think was auto-deleted, and so I read through the whole thread as recommended and haven't found my answer, so I'll ask again: Is there a difference in developing for the free kontakt player and the full version (besides the obvious license fees and native access registration) or is it all the same PITA for small developers?


As I understand it, there's no good way to copy protect non-Kontakt Player libraries, so they have to rely on the good will of their users and vague threats about watermarking. And they have to deal with users who don't own the full version of Kontakt buying their libraries by mistake. But I don't think they have to deal with any of the other issues.


----------



## robgb (Feb 9, 2022)

Composer 2021 said:


> Kontakt's user interface is awful. You can't make the player into a bigger window. Developers need to make their interfaces small to fit them into a Kontakt window.


You consider this small (click to get the actual size)?







Composer 2021 said:


> You can't show the keyboard and the full libraries list at the same time.


Do you mean Quickload? It's fixed in an upcoming version.


----------



## robgb (Feb 9, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> As I understand it, there's no good way to copy protect non-Kontakt Player libraries, so they have to rely on the good will of their users and vague threats about watermarking. And they have to deal with users who don't own the full version of Kontakt buying their libraries by mistake. But I don't think they have to deal with any of the other issues.


As far as I know there's no difference other than a player library can only be used after it has been added to the browser, which requires using Native Access to authenticate it.


----------



## jtnyc (Feb 12, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> Or, are you talking about Quick-Load? Fix for this is coming in next version of Kontakt (QL will go above virtual keyboard)


That is welcome news!


----------



## Cinesamples (Feb 12, 2022)

Kontakt is a sampler we will continue to support in the years ahead. As a matter of fact, we JUST finished encoding EVERY single one of our libraries for the Kontakt Player. It was very expensive for us, but we know its what customers want. I know the guys at NI, and they really do care about Kontakt. Also we have several new Kontakt products coming up.

AND, at the same time, we are just about to launch the Early Access for Musio (www.musio.com), our efficient and lightweight software plugin that gives you immediate access to a world of virtual instruments right within your DAW. Simply Search, Load and Play. www.musio.com It may not be for those of us that prefer to spend $6K on new virtual instruments, but it will give access to those who can't afford that.

We even invented our own LUA-based scripting language to handle unique and complex instrument features. Of course legato is possible, along with most of anything one can imagine. All of our CineSymphony line will be in Musio, and many new instruments recorded at some, pretty cool scoring stages here in Los Angeles.

Sign up and we'll get you on the list to do the Early Access Beta which is just days away. You'll get 30 days to try it out. No CC required for this. We need your feedback. Standby

(okay, reading this back kinda sounded like a commercial, forgive me. Just really wanna hear from you!!!!)

Mike P


----------



## Wunderhorn (Feb 12, 2022)

Cinesamples said:


> Just really wanna hear from you!!!!)



While in all fairness everyone should have a good fighting chance at this I would like to note that as a happy Cinesamples customer I am not interested in another sample player engine. It is one too many - I have been burnt by PLAY, ENGINE, Spitfire Player, SINE etc.
Therefore I will absolutely avoid Musio at least for two years after release.

As I mentioned before - if anyone feels the need to create a new sample player engine it should be a platform for all developers to have access to - and contribute to it.
For each developer cooking their own soup is ignoring one important element in this equation: _the customer_. And this customer does not want to baby-sit and trouble shoot X additional components in their rig when running a full orchestral template which is already feeling like a house of cards that may fall down any second. Things only become more complex, not simpler, so adding more diversity in sample players is making a working composer's life unnecessarily harder with little to no benefit over the existing options..


----------



## tmhuud (Feb 13, 2022)

Cinesamples said:


> Kontakt is a sampler we will continue to support in the years ahead. As a matter of fact, we JUST finished encoding EVERY single one of our libraries for the Kontakt Player.



Thank you soooo much!


----------



## Consona (Feb 16, 2022)

Ok.


----------



## EduPrado (Apr 12, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> I dont think i made this one correctly


That's exactly how I feel!


----------



## JDK88 (Apr 12, 2022)

Closed ecosystems suck. Need more formats like SFZ.


----------



## gsilbers (Sep 18, 2022)

ehhh.. so the stuff i do while troubleshooting to vent.


----------



## gsilbers (Sep 18, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Sep 18, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Sep 18, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Sep 18, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Sep 18, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Sep 18, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Sep 18, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Sep 18, 2022)




----------



## gsilbers (Sep 18, 2022)




----------



## august80 (Sep 19, 2022)

Can we get some memes on the number of installation managers. I've been praying for the day developers get together and do something like Steam for games. One app / store where almost everything is available to buy, demo, install, authorize, see reviews, chat on product forums. Standardized install paths, intelligent search and databasing. One app for all installations - tells you what you own, what you don't own, shows available expansions, alternative products, available preset libraries, video tutorials, and on and on. 

Could run regular sales like "Reverb Day" or "Indie Developer Day". Just a giant marketplace of audio & music software, where the core marketplace app (like Steam) is solely focused on stability, security, UI / UX, etc. while the music / audio software developers could just focus on their product development...and not worry about building 100 different installation managers and security protocols.

Ah, I can dream.


----------



## pulsedownloader (Sep 19, 2022)

august80 said:


> I've been praying for the day developers get together and do something like Steam for games. One app / store where almost everything is available to buy, demo, install, authorize, see reviews, chat on product forums. Standardized install paths, intelligent search and databasing. One app for all installations - tells you what you own, what you don't own, shows available expansions, alternative products, available preset libraries, video tutorials, and on and on.
> 
> Could run regular sales like "Reverb Day" or "Indie Developer Day". Just a giant marketplace of audio & music software, where the core marketplace app (like Steam) is solely focused on stability, security, UI / UX, etc. while the music / audio software developers could just focus on their product development...and not worry about building 100 different installation managers and security protocols.
> 
> Ah, I can dream.


----------



## d.healey (Sep 19, 2022)

august80 said:


> Ah, I can dream.


There are a couple of these already. But not all games companies use Steam, the bigger ones tend to have their own systems.


----------



## pulsedownloader (Sep 19, 2022)

august80 said:


> Can we get some memes on the number of installation managers. I've been praying for the day developers get together and do something like Steam for games. One app / store where almost everything is available to buy, demo, install, authorize, see reviews, chat on product forums. Standardized install paths, intelligent search and databasing. One app for all installations - tells you what you own, what you don't own, shows available expansions, alternative products, available preset libraries, video tutorials, and on and on.
> 
> Could run regular sales like "Reverb Day" or "Indie Developer Day". Just a giant marketplace of audio & music software, where the core marketplace app (like Steam) is solely focused on stability, security, UI / UX, etc. while the music / audio software developers could just focus on their product development...and not worry about building 100 different installation managers and security protocols.
> 
> Ah, I can dream.


The problem is not all developers *want *this unfortunately. Some want to keep everything in their own ecosystem, some don't want the extra cost, some want to try their hand at making their own installer etc.


----------



## Voider (Sep 19, 2022)

august80 said:


> Can we get some memes on the number of installation managers.


----------



## ZeroZero (Sep 19, 2022)

I would go even further - the whole orchestration in sequencer thing and VSTs has got way too bloated. It's reaching the end of its shelf life. We need to get simplicity back.

In a sequencer, one track = one staff = choose your instrument from ANY library you have bought, choose your articulation (per note from any library), view in the notation package of your choice. Simply.


----------



## d.healey (Sep 19, 2022)

ZeroZero said:


> One track = one staff = choose your instrument from ANY library you have bought, choose your articulation, view in notation. Simply.


This is what I do already, I must have missed a memo...


----------



## Vik (Sep 19, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> The more proprietary players you have
> 
> • the more compatibility issues you have,
> • the more baby-sitting you have to do in terms of updates
> ...


But also:
With more players (and many of us already use a few of them), there will be more competition between them in terms of being self-explanatory / having all the needed functionality / being most stable and so on. 

Since none of us (probably) will read all the user manuals for Sine, the SF player, Musio, SoundPaint, Labs, Kontakt, the VSL Synchron Player, the other VSL player, the new L&S Incirios, the sampler(s) in your DAW(s) and the ones I forgot, the new players simply must have built in Help-functions (both quick-halp and more advanced help – see what Logic does). 

So the future is kind of bright, but having said that (too late now): I would have preferred if they all got together and created the optimum sampler – and that they all will get built in Check For Updates and (for the brave ones) Auto-Update.


----------



## ZeroZero (Sep 19, 2022)

d.healey said:


> This is what I do already, I must have missed a memo...


Edited my post to make it clearer


----------



## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 19, 2022)

Good reason for the big lazy fat overlord Native Instruments to improve Kontakt and the support (no personal experiences but read some troubling things).


----------



## vitocorleone123 (Sep 19, 2022)

Well Kontakt 7 will soon be available. While it can scale (but no apparent resizing improvements), will it also be more efficient?


----------



## kociol21 (Sep 20, 2022)

august80 said:


> Can we get some memes on the number of installation managers. I've been praying for the day developers get together and do something like Steam for games. One app / store where almost everything is available to buy, demo, install, authorize, see reviews, chat on product forums.



Like when Netlfix became popular and we are were like "YES! Now I can only have to have one platform for my movies/series. But then nope. HBO, Disney, Shudder, Hulu, Amazon, AppleTV, whatever. Now we are back into "good ol TV" times when we have to choose from 50 channels but now we also have to pay for each separately. 

Steam is also great because it really took the market way before everyone seemed to realize what's going on. Still, Epic store anyone? Windows store? Ubisoft Uplay? EA Store? BattleNET? EA store? Far from homogenous.

Now, for my rant...

Whole software market and especially specialized software, and for some reason ESPECIALLY music making software is incredibly toxic, unfriendly and constantly on the verge of breaking multiple customer rights, just pure concentration of asshole design. And it works like that basically because it "it was always like that" and people are just used to it and don't think too much. 

But imagine that games worked like music software:

- You can only install game on one PC.
- You can only install your game 3 times total. You have to pay 50$ and wait a month for approval to install it 4th time.
- You can only download game once, if you delete files by accident, you have to pay like 30$ to download it again.
- You have to have USB stick for game to work, different stick for different games, and you have to pay for the stick separately too.
- For each game you have to have separate auxilallary software just to update it. 

etc. and mind you, games are still in the "red area" of asshole design with weird security systems that sometimes are outright malware, anti resell policies etc. but they are still miles better that this sad bullshit we have to deal with when it comes to music production.

It's basically "pay us shitton of money and be glad that you can even use our product on our restrictive conditions". Hey, imagine if these policies trasferred to real products, it would be glorious.

You bought a car, but you can't borrow it to your friend, becasue as of company policy only "the owner" is approved to drive it, you can't resell it, you can't get yourself another pair of keys etc. 

Couple years ago I had hopes that people will become more conscious and stick it to devs, but nah, people don't care. "It was like that 10 years ago, so that's probably how it should be". "But but but developer's profit... they have to include these 20 anticonsumer policies and intrusive protection systems because it may be pirated!!11". Big whoop. I don't care and neither should you. It will be pirated either way, and besides it's company business whether they want to fight piracy. If they do, that's understandable, but do so without involving customers into it or gtfo. 

Offtopic rant over. 

Point is, there will be no unified platform for two reasons. 

1. Everyone want his fair share of cake and is reluctant to share with others.

2. We, as consumers, are our own demise, because we drool over shinies and throw money at devs no matter what f....d up shit they come up with and how bad they treat us.


----------



## TonalDynamics (Sep 20, 2022)

Voider said:


>


LOL this thread really blossomed, please more


----------



## TonalDynamics (Sep 20, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Good reason for the big lazy fat overlord Native Instruments to improve Kontakt and the support (no personal experiences but read some troubling things).


One would think, eh?

But if the recent 'leaks' were any indicator of the progress they've made with K7... let's just say we'll have to keep resorting to memes as our primary means of survival.


----------



## TonalDynamics (Sep 21, 2022)

kociol21 said:


> Steam is also great because it really took the market way before everyone seemed to realize what's going on. Still, Epic store anyone? Windows store? Ubisoft Uplay? EA Store? BattleNET? EA store? Far from homogenous.


Well it's great at least that virtually all of those other storefronts you mentioned essentially failed (not that that stops them from trying)

But on that note, Valve really deserves a lot of praise in terms of their role as devs of Steam; just as they've always been since the old days, they show practically no interest in becoming corporate monsters, have _tons_ of sales on a regular basis, and have always been primarily focused on improving the user experience of the platform. 

They really are some of the best devs I know (apart from the lack of a proper HL2 p.3, but we'll let that slide), and exemplify the 'correct' dev. attitude:

I.E., 'get all the business because you _deserve_ it', not because you're all that there is and everyone in your sector is thus forced to use you.


----------

