# Windows 11 for audio?



## cedricm (Nov 27, 2022)

I've been extremely reluctant to upgrade from Windows 10 to Windows 11.

However, according to this video, audio performances as tested by Dawbench* have increased 15-20 % at low buffer sizes on dsp tests, while similar with a loss at most of 5 % on AMD and 2 % on Intel on the virtual instruments tests.

For those who took the plunge, how do you like Windows 11 for composing, producing, mixing, mastering?

* AMD 5950X, Intel 11900K, RME Babyface.


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## easyrider (Nov 27, 2022)

5950x windows 11 and Thunderbolt all working like it should.

Love it


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## inthevoid (Nov 27, 2022)

12900K, Win 11, RME UCXII absolutely flying! Using both Cubase 12 & Reaper.

Edit: was actually built by the guys in the video who I highly recommend


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## rgames (Nov 27, 2022)

I've done the switch on three different machines (two laptops, one desktop) over the past few months and found no real-world difference. But then again, I've found no real-world differences in performance across CPUs and OSs for about the last decade. However, I don't use DAWBench as a reference, I have my own set of benchmark projects that span several different types of work (full orchestra, pop, etc.).

I have not found DAWBench results to be representative of real-world scenarios. The video editing guys have the Pugent Bench suite that does represent reality but we in the DAW world don't have anything equivalent. So keep that in mind and temper your expectations accordingly.

rgames


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## TomislavEP (Nov 27, 2022)

If this is true, I might update the OS on my DAW in due time. The other systems that I use are not compliant.

Funny, most of the reviews and tests I've seen so far say that the performance of 10 & 11 is comparable in most cases. However, there is also a lot of talk about performance issues, especially with AMD Ryzen 7 (which is what I'm using). This is likely fixed by now, but I'm careful.

In general, the only thing that really draws me toward W11 is a more consistent look and the fact that W10 won't be supported in the future.


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## inthevoid (Nov 27, 2022)

One thing that does worry me with Win 11 is people reporting DAWs not playing nice with the latest update (22H2). I'm avoiding it for now, but has anyone had any issues with it?


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 27, 2022)

inthevoid said:


> One thing that does worry me with Win 11 is people reporting DAWs not playing nice with the latest update (22H2). I'm avoiding it for now, but has anyone had any issues with it?


Not sure if it's the latest S1 build or Win11 or what, but, yes, I'm getting more glitching that I can't track down - S1 shows red, I hear the glitch, but S1 doesn't indicate what caused it, and either does LatencyMon even though it's running.


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## AceAudioHQ (Nov 27, 2022)

I've noticed no difference working with 10 and 11. The upgrade went extremely smooth, the only thing I had to relearn is the new task bar where the icons are not in the left corner any more but in the center, 25 years of muscle memory and I always looked for the icons from the bottom left, took months to get used to them being in the center.


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## easyrider (Nov 27, 2022)

AceAudioHQ said:


> I've noticed no difference working with 10 and 11. The upgrade went extremely smooth, the only thing I had to relearn is the new task bar where the icons are not in the left corner any more but in the center, 25 years of muscle memory and I always looked for the icons from the bottom left, took months to get used to them being in the center.


Change it to left in seconds!


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## Gensaii (Nov 27, 2022)

Windows 11 has been fine for music production for me. No trouble with FL Studio (Not sure if I noticed much of an upgrade in performance.) You can try it out and then easily revert back within 10 days of updating if you don't like it or if there is a problem. I'd also recommend using software to clone your C drive beforehand.


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## Xabierus Music (Nov 27, 2022)

For the people having problems after windows update, check the power plan and make sure its not in "economic" or power saving mode, it hapened to me that i had a power plan focused on performance and high energy, and after the update it changed to "economic" mode, that was limiting the power on my cpu andni was having audio dropouts, after i changed the power plan for the high performance it works like it should with no audio drop outs


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## angeruroth (Nov 27, 2022)

Here Cubase 12 and Acoustica 7 are working fine in Windows 11 (i7-12700, 64GB). For video editing and other creative endeavors I don't have any glitches either, so I'd say it's all good, but I can't talk about performance changes because my current machine is quite different from the previous Windows 10.


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## rgames (Nov 27, 2022)

Xabierus Music said:


> For the people having problems after windows update, check the power plan and make sure its not in "economic" or power saving mode, it hapened to me that i had a power plan focused on performance and high energy, and after the update it changed to "economic" mode, that was limiting the power on my cpu andni was having audio dropouts, after i changed the power plan for the high performance it works like it should with no audio drop outs


Yeah that's a good point - I didn't have any issues with my desktop but Win 11 seems to handle power plans very differently on laptops. I've always used the "Steinberg Power Plan" on my laptops but had to disable it with Win 11. It was a crackling disaster, at least it was with a 12th gen CPU.

Also, at least when I was making the switch a few months ago, Win 11 lets you change stuff in the power plan that doesn't actually do anything on a laptop. I always used to do everything from the "Power Plan" setting in the control panel but on laptops there's another place where you set power options in Win 11 - I think you can right-click on the battery to go right to it. The control panel settings sometimes have no effect depending on the setting in the other location. That confused the crap out of me for a good two hours or so. Bad software design...


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## dylanmixer (Nov 27, 2022)

It's exactly the same.


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## inthevoid (Nov 27, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Not sure if it's the latest S1 build or Win11 or what, but, yes, I'm getting more glitching that I can't track down - S1 shows red, I hear the glitch, but S1 doesn't indicate what caused it, and either does LatencyMon even though it's running.


Thanks, that's good to know. I might hold off on updating for the time being in that case!


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## cedricm (Nov 28, 2022)

For those of you with a Ryzen processor and Thunderbolt, what's your motherboard?


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## pixel (Nov 28, 2022)

I only tried W11 on my laptop and I don't see any performance gain. The only difference is extreme battery drain. From about 10 hours of heavy use to max 3h of using Teams or Web browsing. I see that others also having this problem and there's no solution for now. 
It's even draining battery when laptop is supposed to be shut down. Apparently normal shut down is not shutting down PC like it was in previous Windows versions. 
W11 - the most eco friendly OS in the world 😁


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## cedricm (Nov 28, 2022)

pixel said:


> I only tried W11 on my laptop and I don't see any performance gain. The only difference is extreme battery drain. From about 10 hours of heavy use to max 3h of using Teams or Web browsing. I see that others also having this problem and there's no solution for now.
> It's even draining battery when laptop is supposed to be shut down. Apparently normal shut down is not shutting down PC like it was in previous Windows versions.
> W11 - the most eco friendly OS in the world 😁


Quite extreme.
Did you try:

Running Power troubleshooter
Enabling battery power saver
Disabling fast start
Disabling Bluetooth & WiFi when not using them
Stop apps from refreshing in the background
Lower the refresh rate for your display
Use a dark background or theme
Decrease time for lock screen timeout
Video Playback : Optimize for battery
Lower screen brightness
Disable autostart apps


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## pixel (Nov 28, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Quite extreme.
> Did you try:
> 
> Running Power troubleshooter
> ...


I'm a heavy OS tweaker since Windows 2000  I did what I could. No difference.
After seeing how my wife is working with audio on her Mac without any problems I decided that after over 20 years with Windows it's time to abandon this sinking ship. Win7 was the last version that I enjoyed. Since then MS is doing more and more user unfriendly OS. I'm done 😀


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## cedricm (Nov 28, 2022)

pixel said:


> I'm a heavy OS tweaker since Windows 2000  I did what I could. No difference.
> After seeing how my wife is working with audio on her Mac without any problems I decided that after over 20 years with Windows it's time to abandon this sinking ship. Win7 was the last version that I enjoyed. Since then MS is doing more and more user unfriendly OS. I'm done 😀


I'm quite satisfied with Windows 10.
With it, I'm using hardware designed for Windows XP. A compatibility I would never get on Mac.


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## ZeroZero (Nov 28, 2022)

I had all sorts of problems with Win 11. Recycle bin would disappear and shortly afterwards desktop would freeze, even Microsoft and several re-installs did not work. I upgraded to 12 and all is fine with no other changes.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 28, 2022)

I had no problems with the upgrade and have not noticed any practical improvements either. I've been using Studio One 5, Reason Lite and Wavelab Elements.


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## pixel (Nov 28, 2022)

cedricm said:


> I'm quite satisfied with Windows 10.
> With it, I'm using hardware designed for Windows XP. A compatibility I would never get on Mac.


True. Compatibility is a weak point of Apple. 
At this point, I'm jealous of the aggregate devices option on macOS. Now I have only four channels left on my 24-channel mixer. With macOS, I could add another audio interface instead of buying a bigger and bigger mixer whenever my studio grows. I already have 8 channels free on the Focusrite interface, which I cannot use together with the mixer (which also works as a multi-channel audio interface). 
Windows never was made with audio in mind. By looking at what they're doing with W11 (and what they were doing in the last decade), I lost hope that MS will ever care about audio. They have different priorities. 

ps. yes, I'm getting old, and I need an OS for grandpas


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## cedricm (Nov 28, 2022)

pixel said:


> True. Compatibility is a weak point of Apple.
> At this point, I'm jealous of the aggregate devices option on macOS. Now I have only four channels left on my 24-channel mixer. With macOS, I could add another audio interface instead of buying a bigger and bigger mixer whenever my studio grows. I already have 8 channels free on the Focusrite interface, which I cannot use together with the mixer (which also works as a multi-channel audio interface).
> Windows never was made with audio in mind. By looking at what they're doing with W11 (and what they were doing in the last decade), I lost hope that MS will ever care about audio. They have different priorities.
> 
> ps. yes, I'm getting old, and I need an OS for grandpas


I disagree. 
The last few versions of windows brought significant improvements for audio such as the ease of use of multiple audio interfaces concurrently, per application mixer and more. 
Support for a full stack midi 2 is actively being worked on. Hopefully it won't be a v11 exclusive.


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## pixel (Nov 28, 2022)

cedricm said:


> I disagree.
> The last few versions of windows brought significant improvements for audio such as the ease of use of multiple audio interfaces concurrently, per application mixer and more.
> Support for a full stack midi 2 is actively being worked on. Hopefully it won't be a v11 exclusive.


But you can't use two of them in one app like DAW. I'm not gonna wait for W20 (with built-in adverts  and even more bloatware) to have it.

Btw, all major new features are already W11 exclusive, so forget about having it in W10. W10 is getting only minor updates and no new major features since the launch of W11.


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## dterry (Nov 29, 2022)

I have a sample server built with Win 11 and found two things:

1 - Win 11 is more restrictive over user control. Microsoft has superseded Apple in the "tell the user what to do" category. Not a good trend at all.
2 - Security updates can not truly be disabled as they could in 8 and 10. This sample server shuts down VEPro and reboots about once a week, and every single user-configurable option regarding updates is turned off. Even editing Group Policy only works temporarily. You have to manually set it after every reboot, and even that doesn't seem to completely prevent auto-updates. You can only pause updates within the OS, and only restrict restarts for up to 18 hours a day. The only alternative is to keep Win11 systems completely offline, and deal with the constant reminders. 

After being a PC user and building almost all of my own systems for decades (since DOS days), I am planning to move to a Mac for my host system, and perhaps for the next sample server as well. I'll keep older i7s for servers as long as I can, but between sample library updates, VEPro, iLok, etc, those systems remain compatible for long. Macs are far from perfect, as some have noted here, but Microsoft's trajectory with Windows 11 is concerning to say the least. At best I think they are headed towards a less flexible controlled ecosystem. It may work fine for self-contained audio production (all in one PC), but for larger networked systems I am not optimistic.


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## Alchemedia (Nov 29, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Quite extreme.
> Did you try:
> 
> Running Power troubleshooter
> ...


I wouldn't suggest lowering refresh rate. Visually fatiguing.


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## Alchemedia (Nov 29, 2022)

dterry said:


> I have a sample server built with Win 11 and found two things:
> 
> 1 - Win 11 is more restrictive over user control. Microsoft has superseded Apple in the "tell the user what to do" category. Not a good trend at all.
> 2 - Security updates can not truly be disabled as they could in 8 and 10. This sample server shuts down VEPro and reboots about once a week, and every single user-configurable option regarding updates is turned off. Even editing Group Policy only works temporarily. You have to manually set it after every reboot, and even that doesn't seem to completely prevent auto-updates. You can only pause updates within the OS, and only restrict restarts for up to 18 hours a day. The only alternative is to keep Win11 systems completely offline, and deal with the constant reminders.
> ...



I wouldn't go so far as to become another "Apple Scruff", however, there is no need whatsoever to upgrade to Win 11 yet. Besides, rumor has it they will release yet another version before Win 10 EOL October 14, 2025.


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 29, 2022)

dterry said:


> I have a sample server built with Win 11 and found two things:
> 
> 1 - Win 11 is more restrictive over user control. Microsoft has superseded Apple in the "tell the user what to do" category. Not a good trend at all.
> 2 - Security updates can not truly be disabled as they could in 8 and 10. This sample server shuts down VEPro and reboots about once a week, and every single user-configurable option regarding updates is turned off. Even editing Group Policy only works temporarily. You have to manually set it after every reboot, and even that doesn't seem to completely prevent auto-updates. You can only pause updates within the OS, and only restrict restarts for up to 18 hours a day. The only alternative is to keep Win11 systems completely offline, and deal with the constant reminders.
> ...


I didn’t find a difference between Win10 and Win11 for your number one. Maybe I just configured it differently?

There’s probably a solution for number two, but it should be built in. Chances are that an actual server version would be fine rather than one intended for home use. I’d search for the solution on the Internet.


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## pranic (Nov 29, 2022)

I've been kicking the tires with Windows 11, and overall, it appears to perform a little bit better than Windows 10 from a "perceived UX" perspective. (It just *feels* a bit faster for regular operations). Nothing faster or noticeable inside the DAW, though. It also feels a little bit faster than my semi-equivalent mac (Mac is i9-9900k w/64G) and the PC is Ryzen 9 5950x w/64G. I don't think you'll run in to any compatibility problems with Win11 unless your computer lacks a TPM module (required for Win11). I did a clean install of Win11, fwiw.

As another aside, the overt advertising in the start menu that I saw in Windows 10, has largely gone away in Windows 11 from what I can tell. There's still some subtle applications in the start menu that I didn't install on my computer, but it feels less intrusive than Win10 did.


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## cedricm (Nov 29, 2022)

pixel said:


> Btw, all major new features are already W11 exclusive, so forget about having it in W10. W10 is getting only minor updates and no new major features since the launch of W11.


Partially true at best. 
Example : compatibility with Linux gui apps was limited to windows 11's subsystem for Linux. 
It's now also available on windows 10.


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## dterry (Nov 29, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I didn’t find a difference between Win10 and Win11 for your number one. Maybe I just configured it differently?
> 
> There’s probably a solution for number two, but it should be built in. Chances are that an actual server version would be fine rather than one intended for home use. I’d search for the solution on the Internet.


Already searched extensively. Group Policy is the only option, and this is Windows 11 pro. The only difference vs Home is added security options with Bitlocker and WIP. 

My number 1 was one of the first things I noticed compared to my Win10 i7 system because turning off security is one of the first things I do when setting up a new PC.


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 29, 2022)

dterry said:


> Already searched extensively. Group Policy is the only option, and this is Windows 11 pro. The only difference vs Home is added security options with Bitlocker and WIP.
> 
> My number 1 was one of the first things I noticed compared to my Win10 i7 system because turning off security is one of the first things I do when setting up a new PC.


Im guessing they want people running servers to pay for a server license. Annoying.

Sorta like Apple’s forced plugin updates and other things. There’s no winning - it’s just picking what we the user lose on.


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## José Herring (Nov 29, 2022)

cedricm said:


> I've been extremely reluctant to upgrade from Windows 10 to Windows 11.
> 
> However, according to this video, audio performances as tested by Dawbench* have increased 15-20 % at low buffer sizes on dsp tests, while similar with a loss at most of 5 % on AMD and 2 % on Intel on the virtual instruments tests.
> 
> ...



Switched to W11 on all machines and never looked back.


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## HammyHavoc (Dec 3, 2022)

pixel said:


> True. Compatibility is a weak point of Apple.
> At this point, I'm jealous of the aggregate devices option on macOS. Now I have only four channels left on my 24-channel mixer. With macOS, I could add another audio interface instead of buying a bigger and bigger mixer whenever my studio grows. I already have 8 channels free on the Focusrite interface, which I cannot use together with the mixer (which also works as a multi-channel audio interface).
> Windows never was made with audio in mind. By looking at what they're doing with W11 (and what they were doing in the last decade), I lost hope that MS will ever care about audio. They have different priorities.
> 
> ps. yes, I'm getting old, and I need an OS for grandpas


Not to be _that guy_, but why not just get an audio interface with a driver that supports multiple interfaces simultaneously? E.g. RME or UA. Use your existing mixer as a mixer if you feel benefit/value from it in your workflow, and use the interfaces as-intended. I've ditched the mixing desks over here. Control surfaces only in terms of mixing operations.


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## pixel (Dec 5, 2022)

HammyHavoc said:


> Not to be _that guy_, but why not just get an audio interface with a driver that supports multiple interfaces simultaneously? E.g. RME or UA. Use your existing mixer as a mixer if you feel benefit/value from it in your workflow, and use the interfaces as-intended. I've ditched the mixing desks over here. Control surfaces only in terms of mixing operations.


I already decided to move to Mac, so I don't see a need to buy interfaces like RME or UA.


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## pixel (Dec 5, 2022)

Btw. it looks like I'm not insane after all and Windows indeed has a problem with battery draining.
I can't believe that MS (and Intel) are seeing this as a 'feature'.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 20, 2022)

Installing Windows 11 solved the fan problem on my Dell 5530 laptop.

JOY!!!

i've read Win 11 handles foreground/background tasks better than Win 10.


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## Cideboy (Dec 20, 2022)

Watch out for drivers my opinion is if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. In my opinion windows 11 it’s just a money grab. You have to turn off a hell of a lot of things if you don’t want to get spied on. That and it’s harder and harder to make an account that isn’t tied into the cloud.


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 20, 2022)

Cideboy said:


> Watch out for drivers my opinion is if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. In my opinion windows 11 it’s just a money grab.


I upgraded for free to both 10 and then 11. Also, 11 works better overall at this point than 10 (except for the update policy).


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 21, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I upgraded for free to both 10 and then 11. Also, 11 works better overall at this point than 10 (except for the update policy).


free here as well!

zero driver issues!

probably the best upgrade this year, including music products!


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## Pier (Dec 21, 2022)

Does Microsoft still forces you to create a Microsoft account for using Windows 11?


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> Does Microsoft still forces you to create a Microsoft account for using Windows 11?


I think there's something like that now/coming if you are creating a brand new install? Fuzzy on details. But it doesn't change anything for "legacy"... as far as I know. 

Once in effect, that would be another annoying thing I'd list in addition to the default updates policy.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 21, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I think there's something like that now/coming if you are creating a brand new install? Fuzzy on details. But it doesn't change anything for "legacy"... as far as I know.
> 
> Once in effect, that would be another annoying thing I'd list in addition to the default updates policy.


i use my hotmail account.

i don't see how this is a downside.

hardly annoying IMO.


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## cedricm (Dec 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> Does Microsoft still forces you to create a Microsoft account for using Windows 11?


Microsoft doesn't force you to create a Microsoft account - at least in Windows 10. It just makes it unintuitive.
On the other hand, Google does with Android.


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## Pier (Dec 21, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Microsoft doesn't force you to create a Microsoft account - at least in Windows 10. It just makes it unintuitive.
> On the other hand, Google does with Android.


Yeah this was a new "feature" introduced in Windows 11.

AFAIK you can use Android without creating a Google account. You won't be able to use Google's services though (same with iOS).


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## Sombreuil (Dec 21, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Microsoft doesn't force you to create a Microsoft account - at least in Windows 10. It just makes it unintuitive.
> On the other hand, Google does with Android.


Are you sure? Last time I checked you needed to unplug your ethernet cable in order to create a local account.
Anyway, for those who want to use a local account instead, you can with Rufus.


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## Quasar (Dec 21, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> Are you sure? Last time I checked you needed to unplug your ethernet cable in order to create a local account.
> Anyway, for those who want to use a local account instead, you can with Rufus.


That works. You can also still use [email protected] as your email and enter a random password, causing MS to inform you that you're locked out of your MS account. Hit next, and the local (Who's going to use this device?) login screens appear.

As of 21H2 at least, you can interrupt the MS login by opening the task manager (SHift+F10 then tskmgr in the command prompt) and ending the process: Network Connection Flow, but I have not tried this one in 22H2.

As of now there are still a few ways to do it, but I wouldn't expect this to last forever.


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## Pier (Dec 21, 2022)

Quasar said:


> That works. You can also still use [email protected] as your email and enter a random password, causing MS to inform you that you're locked out of your MS account. Hit next, and the local (Who's going to use this device?) login screens appear.
> 
> As of 21H2 at least, you can interrupt the MS login by opening the task manager (SHift+F10 then tskmgr in the command prompt) and ending the process: Network Connection Flow, but I have not tried this one in 22H2.
> 
> As of now there are still a few ways to do it, but I wouldn't expect this to last forever.


This absolutely sucks. You could also just turn off wifi too.

I'm happy with Windows 10 overall but not being able to use a local user is the main reason I'm not switching to Windows 11. I feel it's extremely intrusive.


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## dterry (Dec 21, 2022)

I can't pin it down for sure, but my Win 11 i9 server (VEPro) keeps crashing every few days, and I think it may be Microsoft's forced updates crashing VEP while attempting to force running applications to shut down. Of course there is a chance it could be EW Opus (only VI being hosted), or VEP itself, but I haven't seen any indication in crash logs. All crashes are typically overnight when it is sitting idle, hence Windows updates is the most likely culprit.

This is a dedicated 128G sample server (nothing else loaded or running), and I've only begun to setup the VEP server with maybe 15-20G of samples so far; mainly to test stability without long reload times, and so far, it isn't stable. I don't dare try to load up 90G of samples in hopes of keeping it running even for a couple of days, much less the months I would need and expect from a sample server.

Very disappointing, but this may be par for the course moving forward with Windows.

By contrast, my Win7/Cantabile server has run for years without crashing or needing a restart.


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## Quasar (Dec 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> This absolutely sucks. You could also just turn off wifi too.
> 
> I'm happy with Windows 10 overall but not being able to use a local user is the main reason I'm not switching to Windows 11. I feel it's extremely intrusive.


Of course it's intrusive. But then again, almost everything involving the digital domain in a global information age is intrusive. The entire architecture of the web is designed to be as efficiently intrusive as possible.

I'm staying on W10 too, partly because "if it ain't broke", and any major changes (relevant to me at least) strike me essentially cosmetic and trivial. But moreso because even though there's nothing currently in W11 that is an absolute deal breaker (there are still work-arounds for local accounts, for using Quick Launch and getting the old r-click menus back etc.), I don't trust that this will remain so via subsequent updates. W10, comparatively speaking, is pretty much a known commodity.


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## Pier (Dec 21, 2022)

Quasar said:


> The entire architecture of the web is designed to be as efficiently intrusive as possible.


Huh? What do you mean?


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## Quasar (Dec 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> Huh? What do you mean?


That's a big subject, too big for this thread or this forum, but is oft-discussed in the culture as a whole. The short form is: The web is big business dominated by ginormous tech companies, and data collection for ad revenue and other purposes has become one of the largest industries in the world.

I was just alluding to what everyone already knows, and placing Microsoft's coercive tactics to discourage local accounts in the broader context.


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## cedricm (Dec 21, 2022)

Sombreuil said:


> Are you sure? Last time I checked you needed to unplug your ethernet cable in order to create a local account.
> Anyway, for those who want to use a local account instead, you can with Rufus.


I'm sure of it. I always begin a setup with local accounts to choose the name of my profile folder.


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## dterry (Dec 22, 2022)

Pretty much confirmed now - Windows updates are indeed crashing VEPro and in the middle of working on a score. This is completely unacceptable. Microsoft's obsession with controlling PCs we paid for needs to end. This is ridiculous. I have to reload my template 2-3 times a week and hack group policy everytime MS overrides my preferences. I despise Microsoft.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 25, 2022)

dterry said:


> Pretty much confirmed now - Windows updates are indeed crashing VEPro and in the middle of working on a score. This is completely unacceptable. Microsoft's obsession with controlling PCs we paid for needs to end. This is ridiculous. I have to reload my template 2-3 times a week and hack group policy everytime MS overrides my preferences. I despise Microsoft.


i FINALLY got my network running again.

what a friggin' pain. but it works.

i have VEPro 7 running, so far no issues.

not really clear on what's happening with your VEPro sessions.

is it the Windows updates?


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## cedricm (Dec 25, 2022)

dterry said:


> Pretty much confirmed now - Windows updates are indeed crashing VEPro and in the middle of working on a score. This is completely unacceptable. Microsoft's obsession with controlling PCs we paid for needs to end. This is ridiculous. I have to reload my template 2-3 times a week and hack group policy everytime MS overrides my preferences. I despise Microsoft.


You can disable updates when doing critical work and reenable them afterwards.








Enable or Disable Windows Update Automatic Updates in Windows 10


How to Enable or Disable Automatic Updates for Windows Update in Windows 10




www.tenforums.com




The other solution is, if you don't need internet while composing you can disable your network card - or disable the gateway to internet if you need local networking.


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## dterry (Dec 26, 2022)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> i FINALLY got my network running again.
> 
> what a friggin' pain. but it works.
> 
> ...


Good to hear you have VEP up and running! It does work once setup, but for sure, Microsoft isn't making our lives any easier. I am still testing combinations of Win11 and disabling updates with VEPro and EW Opus to see which contribute to the BSOD crashes. 



cedricm said:


> You can disable updates when doing critical work and reenable them afterwards.


For sure, but this is a sample server that is supposed to run 24/7. I disabled everything, including updates in group policy, but as soon as the PC reboots/crashes, group policy is re-enabled, meaning a sample server that should simply sit quietly and would under Win 7, 8 and 10, now requires constant maintenance. 

I am testing EW Opus standalone to see if that works, or is contributing to crashes. VEPro does crash under every test I've tried, and it seems related to Win11 (same version works perfectly on my Win10 system). I can't see either causing BSOD crashes with Windows alone, which is why I suspect Win11 plays a significant, if not exclusive role.


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## cedricm (Dec 26, 2022)

dterry said:


> Good to hear you have VEP up and running! It does work once setup, but for sure, Microsoft isn't making our lives any easier. I am still testing combinations of Win11 and disabling updates with VEPro and EW Opus to see which contribute to the BSOD crashes.
> 
> 
> For sure, but this is a sample server that is supposed to run 24/7. I disabled everything, including updates in group policy, but as soon as the PC reboots/crashes, group policy is re-enabled, meaning a sample server that should simply sit quietly and would under Win 7, 8 and 10, now requires constant maintenance.
> ...


Interesting. Have you contacted VSL's support? Surely you're not the only customer under W11.
Just in case you didn't do it already and assuming it's more or less as in Windows 10, make folder exceptions so that Windows Defender does not check for viruses in your samples/samples libraries folders.
It may be necessary to add some VSL specific folders Too.


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## easyrider (Dec 26, 2022)

Pier said:


> Does Microsoft still forces you to create a Microsoft account for using Windows 11?


No


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## SonicMojo (Dec 30, 2022)

dterry said:


> Pretty much confirmed now - Windows updates are indeed crashing VEPro and in the middle of working on a score. This is completely unacceptable. Microsoft's obsession with controlling PCs we paid for needs to end. This is ridiculous. I have to reload my template 2-3 times a week and hack group policy everytime MS overrides my preferences. I despise Microsoft.


What version of Windows are using for a sample "Server" anyway? If it has the word "Home" in the version anywhere - expect issues galore. And that is not Microsofts fault if you are attempting to use this version in a "server" context.

Either run Pro, Enterprise or actual Server if you want to control updates AND maintain your sanity.

Sonic.


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## dterry (Dec 30, 2022)

SonicMojo said:


> What version of Windows are using for a sample "Server" anyway? If it has the word "Home" in the version anywhere - expect issues galore. And that is not Microsofts fault if you are attempting to use this version in a "server" context.
> 
> Either run Pro, Enterprise or actual Server if you want to control updates AND maintain your sanity.
> 
> Sonic.


Win 11 Pro on one, Win 10 Pro on another - only so I can control update frequency, which Home traditionally has limited. The server context you are thinking of isn't the same as hosting VEPro with samples. The only additions in Win 11 Pro are Bitlocker and information protection, neither of which should be turned on for DAW or sample server/VEPro use. Control over security has always been the only reason to choose Win Pro over Home. $100 extra just to tell Microsoft to mind its own business, and now, even that isn't enough.


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## SonicMojo (Dec 30, 2022)

dterry said:


> Control over security has always been the only reason to choose Win Pro over Home. $100 extra just to tell Microsoft to mind its own business, and now, even that isn't enough.


Group Policy Editor alone is worth the price of admission up to Pro plus so much more. I actually put "security" in the backseat on Pro or any other version except for LTSC - which is by far the best Windows 10 version MS has ever released. 

Sonic.


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## dterry (Dec 30, 2022)

SonicMojo said:


> Group Policy Editor alone is worth the price of admission up to Pro plus so much more.
> 
> Sonic.


Which is why I always use Pro - at least there is some user control, but even that is diminishing.


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## tressie5 (Jan 2, 2023)

I've been using Win 11 two years hence and it's proven to be ok for audio...once it's tweaked, that is. That means internet off, Bluetooth turned off, max power scheme settings applied, non-essential sound devices disabled, etc.


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## Sombreuil (Jan 2, 2023)

You must run LatencyMon longer and several times, otherwise it's pointless. And even so, LatencyMon is just a bridge between you and your PC and all it says is "Microsoft told me there is a problem".
Quite often you can't know what's the actual problem.

I did all the manipulations you did, and way beyond that actually, and I still have crackles in some situations (especially with Neural DSP plugins) with a 12600K.

I suspect the C-states to be the main problem, but yeah, it's not as simple as that for many users.


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## tressie5 (Jan 2, 2023)

I ran LatencyMon three times, for 3 minutes, 6 minutes, and 9 minutes. The first two times, I'd turned Defender's real-time protection off. With the third, I used an app to disable Defender altogether. There's an app I'd used as an adjunct to LatenyMon which helped me ID a major culprit - AMD's own AUEPMaster.exe. It was used to phone home but wrecked havoc with DPC latency. If i remember the name of the app, I'll post it here. BTW, there is a caveat emptor with Defender Control. It lights up Virus Total like a Christmas tree.


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## tressie5 (Jan 2, 2023)

Without a doubt, getting low latency and fixing click/pop issues is a challenge with Win 11 because of the plethora of background apps running "for your convenience".

Because Defender Control lights up VirusTotal like the sky on New Years Eve, I can't see it being popular.

That said, I've deleted it myself and resorted to suggested fixes which includes:
1. Changing my network adapter's Energy Efficient Ethernet setting in Device Manager to disable.
2. Uninstall Bonjour
3. Win 11 Power Options has settings called Processor Power Management which are not there by default. You have to find a way to enable that. Some ways are simpler than others, but here's one.
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials...decrease-threshold-windows-power-options.html Once it's done, I set Processor Idle Demote Threshhold to 100% and Processor Idle Promote Threshhold to 100%.


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## inthevoid (Wednesday at 11:03 AM)

Have just paused the Windows auto-update to 22H2 again for 5 weeks... has anyone here had any issues with it or am I (relatively) safe to take the plunge?


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## Sombreuil (Wednesday at 11:31 AM)

inthevoid said:


> Have just paused the Windows auto-update to 22H2 again for 5 weeks... has anyone here had any issues with it or am I (relatively) safe to take the plunge?


Just did the update. It automatically reactivated the "HD Audio" thing which caused some crackles, but besides that, no problem at first glance.


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