# Musician trying to rip me off... pfft!



## RiffWraith (May 10, 2014)

Sorry, just feel like venting here.

So, I need someone to play oboe for me. I actually started a thread here, and got a couple of suggestions, which I will look into during the week. In the meantime, I found an oboist on a website, and emailed him. He is in the UK, and has a number of film credits. Bear in mind, the music I have is a simple, straight-forward flowing legato phrase that is 18 seconds in length. So, to me, it's plainly obvious that I am not booking a 3hr session in a hall to get this done.

He tells me that he is frequently at Abbey Rd., and might be able to do it at some point soon, Great! I can pay him (which I am happy to do), and if I have to throw a few dollars towards AR or the engineer, that's fine too. But again - it's plainly obvious that I am not booking a 3hr session to get this done.

I ask him for a quote, and he tells me $420. Huh???? I go online, and find the Musicians Union rates for the UK. For a principle (which doesn't apply here, but let's assume that's what he is looking for - which is fine by me), it is $271 (£161) for a 3 hr session. So, I can hire him for 3 hrs at $271, but to hire him for five minutes is going to cost me $420? That's him trying to rip me off. If he would have told me, "look - it's a 3 hr. min., regardless of how little music you have, and that will cost you $271" - I would still have said no, but there he isn't trying to rip me off. With the $420, he is. 

Again, just venting....


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## chimuelo (May 10, 2014)

Do a session for someone and use their EBT Card payment. They work at weed stores, strip clubs, malls and concerts in Nevada. 
Then become a wealth redistributor by hiring the chap in the UK, as long as he accepts EBT transfers. Take the paying clients card and redistribute the Chinese money to England.
May as well get in on the scam, no requirements other than your word that you are a victim.
They've created numerous slithers of victimhood in the states, surely a category for composers has it's benefits.

On the other hand I would tell him OK, then send him something really un intelligible that takes time to listen and read. May as well waste as much of his time as you can
for pissing you off.


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## bbunker (May 10, 2014)

Sorry to hear that, Jeff. Sounds like you've had a couple of annoyances getting quotes for prices recently, what with this and your VAT adventures!

I guess the thing is that he isn't 'ripping you off' so much as just not giving you an inch on his pricing scheme. Which kind of tells me that he doesn't have sessions booked that he could piggyback your tiny cut onto, so the only way he could make a studio-recorded track work financially is if you foot the whole session cost. I would probably recommend going to somebody else.

As a performer, most of the times that I've stuck to my pricing guns have been when there was some factor that seriously degraded the gig for me, to the point that I would have been happy to walk on it. If you've talked it over and he knows the situation and still wants a scale-and-a-half session to record 18 seconds of simple music, he probably just isn't that into you! Like my mother always told me, there's plenty of hautbois fish in the sea.


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## mverta (May 10, 2014)

Did you ask him, in benefit-of-the-doubt tone of voice, about the discrepancy?

_Mike


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## Synesthesia (May 11, 2014)

Hey Riff,

Sounds like a bargain to me tbh! for a track recorded at AR..

I paid a well known session drummer in LA $750 once to play a tricky part on a track, partly because I wanted specifically his sound, and that was his fee. He recorded at his place.

I understand that many of the top LA session players get triple rate as a matter of course?

Just throwing in a different perspective!

Paul

edit -- btw -- realistically, for the engineer to load up the tracks into Tools, for them to get a quick setup mix that works in relation to the Oboe sound and do 3-4 takes for you -- you are talking about 30 mins in the studio I would suspect.


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## Daryl (May 11, 2014)

A session is a session. It doesn't matter that you only have a couple of notes to play. 

Also, did you talk about usage, overdubbing, cost of hire of room, engineer? I think I need more information before I can agree that you were ripped off.

A basic library session starts somewhere in the region of £120, or £140 if you want the iTunes release etc. Abbey Road engineers are usually around £80-100 per hour, and then you have to factor in set-up time (no matter how small) and room hire. AR1 is around £350/hr, AR2 £170 and you have to pay Pro Tools hire as well. I don't know the cost of the other studios at AR, because I've never hired them. Or was he going to record it somewhere else?

FWIW when I hire an ethnic specialist to come to my studio for a library, it is £250 a session, plus travel.

D


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## Guy Rowland (May 11, 2014)

Yeah... um... Jeffrey, not sure you've quite thought this through, for all the reasons stated by others here.

It's quite an ironic thread this. How many posts have their been about us composers getting ripped off, and how we have to charge what we're worth? Would a producer take to the net to vent about some shark composer who had the audacity to charge what he thought he was worth?

Is this musician particularly good? He said what his fee was to record at one of the top studios in the world. If it's over your budget, that's perfectly fine - look elsewhere.

However, it all raises an interesting point. I think there's a huge gap in the market for a really good website for session musicians and singers, with demos of their stuff, whether or not they have their own recording facilities and can work remotely, and their rate. Quick and easy to source and compare.


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## Hannes_F (May 11, 2014)

I need to raise my prices.

That being said a 18 sec snippet is usually not done in 5 minutes because of

- communication with client for negotiation
- communication with client about musical questions (both together often up to 20 mails going back and forth per track)
- mic setup
- music preparation (often)
- project preparation
- getting into the mood of the music and understanding the point (most important step of all)
- practising a bit
- pre-recording
- listen, repeat
- cleaning up
- pre-mixing into client's audio
- sending for approval
- waiting for OK
- doing corrections if necessary
- delivering the audio
- writing invoice

This is in case of best process, not including complications, but still the actual recording time is only a fraction of the whole effort. I would currently charge about USD 65 or 70 in such a case (18 sec solo) just to give a ballpark, but that is only because I regard most composers that I work for as buddies. 

No real profit in such a snippet. Interesting projects and collaborations though.


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## TheUnfinished (May 11, 2014)

Something like this you mean, Guy?

Session Exchange


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## Guy Rowland (May 11, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Sun May 11 said:


> Something like this you mean, Guy?
> 
> Session Exchange



Why yes! Did this come out of SCOREcast? It's clearly very early days, but here's hoping this gets a lot more musicians and thus becomes a real success. (IMO there should be a standard rate upfront too.)


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## AC986 (May 11, 2014)

Does it have to be a live player Jeffrey? Can't a good oboe sample library perform an 18 second legato good enough?


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## Synesthesia (May 11, 2014)

I used http://sessionplayers.com/ -- for this particular chap (didn't have any other way to get in touch with him!)

Thanks,

Paul


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## Guy Rowland (May 11, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sun May 11 said:


> I used http://sessionplayers.com/ -- for this particular chap (didn't have any other way to get in touch with him!)l



Also useful to know - I hadn't ever come across them either. I see they have a sort of general rate, but that it's a "rates start from" figure.


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## Daryl (May 11, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Sun May 11 said:


> No real profit in such a snippet. Interesting projects and collaborations though.


I think this just about sums it up though, Hannes. You are sort of helping out for fun. If you contact a top session player, who may have been playing on the biggest Hollywood movies, and session playing is what they do for a living, they won't be interested in just helping out. And neither should they.

As composers we often find that we are undercut by people who are just doing it for fun or as a bit of pocket money, rather than a living. However, that doesn't mean we should cut our rates to do favours for strangers.

Having said that, most people might consider what I charge as a rip-off, but they aren't forced to hire me. :wink: 

D


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## Hannes_F (May 11, 2014)

Daryl, I try to be a bridge sometimes for 'samples only' composers to get their feet wet with real recordings. Some of those that use regular orchestras now once started out with my recordings in their demo reels. So ... I am not taking any work away from other players, on the contrary.

But of course you are right: soberly calculated it would not be profitable to begin any recording project much below USD 200 or USD 250 even if it is very short.


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## Daryl (May 11, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Sun May 11 said:


> Daryl, I try to be a bridge sometimes for 'samples only' composers to get their feet wet with real recordings. Some of those that use regular orchestras now once started out with my recordings in their demo reels. So ... I am not taking any work away from other players, on the contrary.


I quite understand, and I do a lot of things for exactly the same reasons (including "lending" my studio for Source Connect sessions).

D


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## RiffWraith (May 11, 2014)

Hey guys. I really don't think I was missing anything here.

As stated, he was going to be at Abbey Rd doing other recordings, and said he would fit me in while there. No travel, no cost of room, no od, no setup time. Usage, as I told him, was private use only. Again, throwing in a few extra dollars for an engineer would have been fine. But his fee is $420. It's not $420 for him,_ and _Abbey Rd. His comment:

_I'd allow $420 and I'll fit into other remote records I have going to save you on studio time_

This is what I don't get. $420 to do 18 sec of music and $271 to hire him for 3 hrs? Someone please explain to me how that makes sense.

"Did you ask him, in benefit-of-the-doubt tone of voice, about the discrepancy? "

Via email, yes. I brought up the MU rate. This was on Wed. He has not responded to me. That I think says it all.

If he is there already recording (as he said he would be), most of the things you mention Hannes, would not be in play. And even with practicing, if you can't record this line that I have in 5 min, there is something seriously wrong with you. Based on his history, he would easily be able to do it. Even if it took him 15 min. - how does that justify $420, when I can hire him for $271 for 3 hrs?

Cheers.


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## Hannes_F (May 11, 2014)

Jeffrey, all information put together I think he actually figured you'd not have much experience and / or people to ask and tried to get an advantage out of this. Kudos to you for trying to find a oboe player. This experience must have been not very encouraging though. I also watched the other thread where you tried to find an online session player (I think that was you). If that is the best result you got then this is indeed not very good.

That being said if the man has his price then this is his price.


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## KEnK (May 11, 2014)

"rip off" is to strong a word here.

He's not stealing from you, just pricing himself above what you're willing to pay.
Simply look elsewhere.

k


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## Daryl (May 11, 2014)

Riff, did you find out how much AR, engineer and Pro Tools was going to cost you on top of his fee?

D


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## Daryl (May 11, 2014)

KEnK @ Sun May 11 said:


> "rip off" is to strong a word here.
> 
> He's not stealing from you, just pricing himself above what you're willing to pay.
> Simply look elsewhere.
> ...


Exactly.

D


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## AC986 (May 11, 2014)

JEFFREY!!!!

Have you thought for a second that he might not be interested in doing it? These guys are busy busy busy. Why not use a sample lib for just 18 seconds. Ask Andy B how much for an 18 sec Oboe mock. Who's going to know the difference.


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## Guy Rowland (May 11, 2014)

Jeffrey - read Daryl's detailed reply above. Supose he was rolling it in with 2 other remote sessions, that's great and splits the cost 3 ways. Let's say it takes him 3 hours to do all 3, so it's 1 hour each of studio / engineer / PT time.



> Abbey Road engineers are usually around £80-100 per hour, and then you have to factor in set-up time (no matter how small) and room hire. AR1 is around £350/hr, AR2 £170 and you have to pay Pro Tools hire as well.



So just on costs of 1 engineer and, say, AR2 = £270 for the two per hour. He's charging you £250, so he's paying £20 to do the gig.

Sure there's assumptions there, but not unreasonable ones.

IMO, you're aiming way to high if you think that cost is unreasonable - Abbey Road and top film score player won't be peanuts, even rolling it into other sessions. Look around for guys with their own recording setups with less impressive CVs but good demos. Try Session Exchange that Matt linked above for starters - several woodwind players there.


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## Mike Greene (May 11, 2014)

I've paid rates similar to that before. It's on the higher side, but certain musicians can't be had for cheap, so if I want that guy, and if budget allows, I pay it.

18 seconds is irrelevant, in my opinion. I've done theme songs that were under 15 seconds, but I don't charge a lower rate for it. Whether it's 10 seconds or 60 seconds, the challenge is the coming up with the hook, not padding the other 45 seconds.

Same idea with an oboe session. The real time involved in a project like this is in the emailing and discussion, coordinating the session, talking to the engineer, labeling the files to send to you, etc. Letting tape roll for 3 minutes instead of 18 seconds is the least of the concerns.

So I think $420 isn't based on a dollars per second structure, it's more of a per-session thing. In fact, now that I think about it, if I pay a singer or musician to come into my studio, I don't pay them any less if it's just for three notes.

Just my opinions, of course.


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## RiffWraith (May 11, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun May 11 said:


> Riff, did you find out how much AR, engineer and Pro Tools was going to cost you on top of his fee?
> 
> D



As mentioned, the $420 was his fee alone.

I thought about maybe he just didn't want to do it, but there are other, easier ways for him to get out of it.

1. Stop emailing me/blow me off
2. Sorry, I don't have time right now - too busy
3. I am not interested in doing this, sorry
4. Your music sucks - I wouldn't be caught dead playing that in the privacy of my own home, let alone in public

Sending me two emails about his fee, and taking the time to explain to me how he is worth it, does not seem like him trying to get out of doing it.

Cheers.


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## AC986 (May 11, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sun May 11 said:


> Daryl @ Sun May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Riff, did you find out how much AR, engineer and Pro Tools was going to cost you on top of his fee?
> ...



Is he English?


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## Guy Rowland (May 11, 2014)

Jeffrey - assuming he wasn't in fact rolling his costs into his fee, he's still charging more than you want to pay, so go elsewhere. You're on a budget and that's totally fine. I don't get this thread.


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## Daryl (May 11, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sun May 11 said:


> Daryl @ Sun May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Riff, did you find out how much AR, engineer and Pro Tools was going to cost you on top of his fee?
> ...


Sorry, I missed that. Well if you think he's not worth it, don't hire him. Exactly as any client would do to you, if they thought your fee was too high for what you can do.

D


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## RiffWraith (May 11, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon May 12 said:


> I don't get this thread.



I don't get why you keep posting in this thread if you don't get the fact that I was venting - as I clearly stated earlier.


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## RiffWraith (May 11, 2014)

adriancook @ Mon May 12 said:


> Is he English?



Yes. What difference should that make?


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## RiffWraith (May 11, 2014)

Daryl @ Mon May 12 said:


> RiffWraith @ Sun May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Sun May 11 said:
> ...



No prob. 

I will go somewhere else - again, I was just venting.

Cheers.


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## wst3 (May 11, 2014)

Wow... interesting thread!!!

I think Jeff was in a position to vent... if the guy did not want to work on this particular project - for any reason - the polite thing to do is just say so. Stringing him along seems bad form. And Jeff was just venting because a prospect that looked promising went belly up... fair enough, happens to all of us at one time or another. Venting is healthy.

That said, many of the points made about the deal are reasonable, and even if they don't apply to this particular case they are thing I will try to keep in mind...

1) the seller gets to set the price, the buyer gets to accept, or decline to buy
2) you'll probably have an easier time working with prospects if you spell things out clearly and completely. The description above has some inconsistencies.
3) when a seller tells you they want X, and you aren't prepared to pay that fee then politely decline.
4) VI-Control is probably not the best place to vent about these sorts of things<G>!

Now speaking as one that has done some collaboration, recording guitar parts for others, I can attest to the fact that unless the part is written out exactly as desired - and that does happen - the actual time to "get it right" can grow rapidly!

My current approach is to record two or at most three takes based on the material sent to me, and any discussions about the piece. The first take is as close to what ever I was sent as I can make it. The second and third are more what I might do with the part were we sitting in the studio together.

I then offer one revision as part of the package, but I'll gladly do additional revisions for an additional fee.

The initial fee is based on the number of parts to be recorded, and the length of the track. It takes into account pre-production work, and set-up time.

That additional fee? Well to be honest it depends a lot on how the collaboration is going... 

This has worked out pretty well for me so far, although I've had very little time to pursue remote recording lately. I really need to work more on that aspect, as it can be a lot of fun!


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## NYC Composer (May 11, 2014)

My disconnect here is this: how is a guy asking a high fee "ripping you off"? His price is his price- it's more than I would pay, but easy enough to say "I'm sure you're worth it but it's more than I'm comfortable paying." Done.

I knew a number of double scale, even triple scale guys back in the day. They were in demand and getting their prices. Musicians can be capitalists!

I heard a guy singing on the street and thought he was great- asked him if he'd record a song of mine for a specific amount, and he agreed. He was homeless, living in a shelter at the time. Recently, I looked him up (he has sent me a website) and asked him to do a session for the same price- his fee was now quadruple! He'd gotten his life together and was working in a high end society band for big bucks. I just told him I couldn't afford it, and we parted amicably.


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## danielcartisano (May 11, 2014)

I don't understand how he's ripping you off. It seems harsh to me.

Why do some composers charge $100 per minute and other composers charge $1500-$15,000 per minute?

It's their price, and if they're good and in demand then it's simply up to how comfortable you are paying it.


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## RiffWraith (May 12, 2014)

I must say, I am really surprised some of you dont get this.

If the national average for gas is $3.28/gal, and this one station - who pays the same for gas as everyone else and has approx the same overhead - charges $5.99/gal because they are the last station before the highway, are they ripping everyone off? Of course they are.

If Chevrolet advertises a certain model as costing $24,000, and when you get to the dealer, they say that due to high demand, you have to pay $38,000 for this model, are you getting ripped off? Of course you are.

If you need to hire a musician whose session rate is $271 per 3 hrs., and he tells you for the 5 min of time it will take him to record what you need he is going to charge $420, is he ripping you off? Of course he is. Does he he have a right to charge what he wants? Sure he does. But he still ripping you off.


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## Guy Rowland (May 12, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Mon May 12 said:


> I must say, I am really surprised some of you dont get this.
> 
> If the national average for gas is $3.28/gal, and this one station - who pays the same for gas as everyone else and has approx the same overhead - charges $5.99/gal because they are the last station before the highway, are they ripping everyone off? Of course they are.
> 
> ...



>8o 

I'm EXTREMELY surprised that. in VI Control of all places, you're not getting this - equating professional musicians with gas prices and cars?!!!

I look forward to your post next time someone baulks at whatever you charge as a composer. Another composer will do it for free every time, so by your logic you're ripping them off.


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## Daryl (May 12, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Mon May 12 said:


> If you need to hire a musician whose session rate is $271 per 3 hrs....


No, you are quoting the Union minimum. He has already told you that this is not his session fee up front, so there is no ripping off.

In any case, why aren't you recording in the US?

D


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## RiffWraith (May 12, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon May 12 said:


> ... so by your logic you're ripping them off.



That's an asinine comment. ME looking to rip HIM off? No - I am looking to pay him the fair going rate. How is that ripping him off? Didn't you leave this forum? What happened?


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## RiffWraith (May 12, 2014)

Daryl @ Mon May 12 said:


> In any case, why aren't you recording in the US?



Maybe I should be....

Maybe we should drop this. My venting has turned into something it shouldn't. Not exactly sure why it wasn't ok to vent, but whatever.....


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## EthanStoller (May 12, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Mon May 12 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Mon May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > ... so by your logic you're ripping them off.
> ...


Did you even read that paragraph before you posted this? Guy was posing a hypothetical here - an apt one that strikes at the heart of why your argument is flawed:



> I look forward to your post next time someone baulks at whatever you charge as a composer. Another composer will do it for free every time, so by your logic you're ripping them off.


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## Stephen Baysted (May 12, 2014)

Jeff, maybe it's a currency issue - are you sure he didn't say £217 per 3hrs - that roughly exchanges at $415 or so. 

Mind you, regardless, he's not ripping you off.


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## AC986 (May 12, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sun May 11 said:


> adriancook @ Mon May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Is he English?
> ...



Ahhh well, there you are you see. 

Now listen Jeffrey, my main instrument is the oboe. I believe you can get what you want to fit from a good oboe library source.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (May 12, 2014)

I pay my lawyer $450/hr and he doesn't even play the oboe!  

Jeffrey, as long as you are not forced to negotiate with the barrel of a gun pointed at your head, he is not ripping you off. You are both free to walk away from this, just like with any other business deal.

Anyway, I hope you will find a solution for your track.

Good luck!

- Jerome


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## NYC Composer (May 12, 2014)

Interesting. I think the problem may be in the terminology.

I looked up "rip-off" in various sources. The definition varies widely from source to source, but one definition is "goods or services that are grossly overpriced." By that definition, Jeffrey's venting would at least be definitive, and I get the feeling that's what he means.

My understanding of the word, correct according to many sources, is: a scam, a deceit, a fraud-i.e. promising something you don't deliver, theft, evil scheme, etc.

So in the multiplicity of definitions, we again see the possibilities for misunderstandings and dicey communication among people. It's easy to jump to a conclusion, which I did. If your definition of the word matches the first one I cited, Jeffrey, my apologies.


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## AC986 (May 12, 2014)

Surely Jeffrey there are a myriad of oboists in New York?

WTF is going on Jeffrey??? >8o


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## NYC Composer (May 12, 2014)

adriancook @ Mon May 12 said:


> Surely Jeffrey there are a myriad of oboists in New York?
> 
> WTF is going on Jeffrey??? >8o



The streets of New York run red with the blood of oboists who slit their wrists in despair, unable to find paying work.*


*ok, not really, or at least I hope not :wink:


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## AC986 (May 13, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 12 said:


> The streets of New York run red with the blood of oboists who slit their wrists in despair, unable to find paying work.*



In despair of Jeffrey more like. Jeffrey has run out of oboists in the United States and has now turned his attention to the UK and their imminent destruction too.

This is now a job for the United Nations.


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## Gusfmm (May 14, 2014)

Just giving you my personal perspective in a friendly mood, no other intent.

So, if you asked Hannes to record an 18sec violin part, he'd probably ask you for $70 as he said. Now you go and ask Joshua Bell, and he may ask for $2,000. Would you as quickly conclude that Mr. Bell is ripping you off? 

Now, now you go and check with Itzhak Perlman, and he asks you for $6,000. Would you now be inclined to conclude that it is Mr. Perlman the one ripping you off? Or maybe both Mr. Bell and Mr. Perlman are? 

Now, you come to me and ask (BTW, in reality, I don't play violin), and I say $1,200. I bet at this point your mind would be hesitating about Hannes' quality, discarding Perlman's offer for cost, and reflecting on both Mr. Bell and my abilities to deliver the best product...

And I'm concious that this is a risque statement put in such simplistic terms: with all due respect to all, I'd actually bet money on that the quality of the final product, in the scope of what you need, recorded by any of them (myself excluded of course :wink: ), would not be *significantly* different from the others. So not an important major factor from a cost perspective.

My bottom line suggestion, now that you've vented a bit, just try to get a few quotes and don't get too hung up on the one. Just as I'd be better off getting three quotes for my bathroom remodeling project contractor, or go visit three dealerships for my forthcoming vehicle lease renewal.




footnote: my most sincere respectful use of Mr. Frischat, Mr. Bell, and Mr. Perlman names merely for illustrative purposes, no other implication or otherwise implicit comparison intended.


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## jleckie (May 14, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue May 13 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > The streets of New York run red with the blood of oboists who slit their wrists in despair, unable to find paying work.*
> ...



lol. THAT is funny...


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## Diffusor (Jun 4, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Mon May 12 said:


> I must say, I am really surprised some of you dont get this.
> 
> If the national average for gas is $3.28/gal, and this one station - who pays the same for gas as everyone else and has approx the same overhead - charges $5.99/gal because they are the last station before the highway, are they ripping everyone off? Of course they are.
> 
> ...




He's actually probably saving you money. Would the $271 for 3 hours include studio fees? And I am sure there's a minimum charge to make it worth everyone's time. It wouldn't be worth my time to bill something for less than an hour. So, for example, factor in a $100 or so for his playing and an hour of studio time at Abbey Road 2 ($240, more if you want AR2) plus engineer ($80) and whatever other equipment fees. That's about $400 right there. That's probably how he came up with the price.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 4, 2014)

Wow - this is still going? :x 



Diffusor @ Wed Jun 04 said:


> So, for example, factor in a $100 or so for his playing and an hour of studio time at Abbey Road....



No - as I stated earlier, it was $420 _for his playing alone_. There was no AR time; as he was going to be there anyway, he was saving me the money on that time. At least, that's what he said. I quoted his words from the email he sent me earlier in this thread.

In any event, I got done what I needed. 

http://maecrosby.com/Welcome.html

$100 recorded. Which is in the range of what it should be, give or take.

Cheers.


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