# Learning Finale



## bryla (Apr 15, 2019)

I'm a long time Sibelius user switching slowly to Finale. I'm hoping to post my queries here in my attempt to overcome the challenges I face in switching.

I find it easiest to input notes with simple entry because I can do that by typing on the keyboard.

One thing about that I noticed is: I can press . to engage rhythm dot but I can't use the .-key to disengage. Is that right?

*My main question here is:*
How do you work with positioning dynamics both sudden and gradual? How do you make sure it snaps to the right note/beat position and what is the easiest way to position it vertically to avoid collisions?


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## Vardaro (Apr 15, 2019)

Why on _earth_ are you switching?!!


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## bryla (Apr 15, 2019)

Well that can take the thread completely off topic but the short answer is: people I work with use it and it is more flexible than Sibelius. Let's just close that conversation there.


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## cmillar (Apr 16, 2019)

I'm exactly like you....coming back to Finale after years away, and really loving it.

What's helped me get back in the 'flow':
- 'Finale 14' Trailblazer guide by Mark Johnson (I use Finale 25, but it's good for pretty much everything)
- 'Composing with Finale' by Mark Johnson (older, but still great)
- printing out the Finale 'Quick Start Guide (all the useful keystrokes)
- the Finale users forums

And...get 'Keyboard Maestro' (or whatever for you Mac or PC)...and program some keystroke shortcuts.

I'm liking 'Simple Entry' as well. I programmed a key on my external keypad to 'escape', and then another key to get back to 'Simple Entry/quarter note' whenever I want to get in and out of 'Simple Entry' quickly in order to noodle around on the keyboard without entering a million rests and notes that don't make sense. 

...Don't forget that Finale has some quirks compared to Sibelius...like, everytime you load in 'library' of your preferred chord symbols or fonts, that they get added to whatever is currently in the open file.
I have to remember to keep saving my preferred setups and to create templates and defaults.

But, the printed output is all worth it.


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## bryla (Apr 16, 2019)

Thank you cmillar! Already found some good workflow tips in the Quick Start Guide. Looking in to Mark Johnsons books as well


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## jamwerks (Apr 16, 2019)

If you have to be compatible with others, then go for it. FWIW, I know Finale like the back of my hand, and Dorico is light years ahead. I wouldn't be surprised if Finale went out of business in a few years...


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## bbunker (Apr 16, 2019)

Yep - "." adds a dot, but doesn't remove it - pressing it again double-dots, and presumably triple-dots. I tend to be on Speedy Entry, so if I double dot by accident or didn't mean to dot, then the back-arrow, duration-press sequence is pretty much muscle memory at this point.

I may be the only human being who really, really likes Speedy Entry. I can't stand the entry methods where you type in the note names, because the mechanical action of typing "A" and "C" (for example) doesn't feel as musical as pressing the up arrow twice to make a third.

On placing dynamics, there's a dotted anchor that should show you the snap-point of the dynamics. Positioning it vertically depends on what instruments are around, obviously, but one thing to keep in mind is that the default between-stave distance is a bit narrow (1.00" if I remember right) - especially for something like a solo instrument, or sets of soloists above a piano score that regularly goes above the staff, so the first step in music like that is probably to increase the gap between those two staves - and between any two groups, since those default to 1.00" and should really be larger for ease of reading anyway, and to prevent situations where notes and dynamics from the contrabassoons are hitting High Horn parts, etc.


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## JohnG (Apr 16, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> Dorico is light years ahead



That is interesting. My copyist said Dorico still lacks a lot of functionality he needs and he's sticking with Finale and Sibelius. I'm wondering whether there have been (very) recent Dorico updates, as he was aware of the 2.x updates.

I like the look of Dorico and certainly the workflow of Finale (though I'm used to it after all this time) is poorly thought out.


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## JT (Apr 16, 2019)

bryla said:


> *My main question here is:*
> How do you work with positioning dynamics both sudden and gradual? How do you make sure it snaps to the right note/beat position and what is the easiest way to position it vertically to avoid collisions?


Try to apply dynamics using the metatools. Most should be okay by default. But downstem notes with accents, the dynamic might collide with the accent and need manual adjusting.


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## jamwerks (Apr 16, 2019)

JohnG said:


> That is interesting. My copyist said Dorico still lacks a lot of functionality he needs and he's sticking with Finale and Sibelius. I'm wondering whether there have been (very) recent Dorico updates, as he was aware of the 2.x updates.
> 
> I like the look of Dorico and certainly the workflow of Finale (though I'm used to it after all this time) is poorly thought out.


Dorico does still lack some funtionality, but it's probably 95% done (my number). Dorico is also highly customisable, but for use in high level publication, some more customisabily will be needed (things possible in Finale because in Finale it's all manually done).

But as far as film work is concerned, Finale (imo) shouldn't even be considered an option against Dorico. Dorico can do everything I need to do, much faster, more efficiently, safer, and more musically.

FWIW I recently completed 60 minutes of full orchestral music (as orchestrator & copiest), and did it in one Dorico file, divided into 40 Flows (cue's). No problems, no surprises. It my case (for example) it created a 65 page Vl I part, with about a dozen distinct running headers, cue tacet (when applicable), etc. Almost print ready. In Finale I would have had 800 (40 cues x 20 parts) distinct pdf's to deal with. No need for a separate copies team here. Just buy Dorico.

It's currently at 2.2.

Sorry about derailing this !...


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## bryla (Apr 16, 2019)

And please take the discussion about Dorico somewhere else  I'm also using Dorico on some projects so I know what it is capable of and what it certainly is not.

Meta tools are helping!

But as careful as I can place them, they turn up like this:




Now is there a way to automatically avoid the collisions between the _p_'s and _ppp_'s and the hairpins or do I have to manually drag them slightly like another caveman?


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## bryla (Apr 16, 2019)

For example I can't seem to position the _ppp_ under the note and have the hairpin start immediately afterwards and only last to just before the _p_. It's seems like an either/or setting.


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## Sean (Apr 16, 2019)

I've been using Finale for probably about 6 or 7 years at this point and as far as I'm aware of you need to manually move the hairpins.


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## JohnG (Apr 16, 2019)

Sean said:


> I've been using Finale for probably about 6 or 7 years at this point and as far as I'm aware of you need to manually move the hairpins.



I've been on it since version 1.0 and I still manually move hairpins. You can draw them pretty fast with the < and > keys, which I find fastest. 

That's the problem with Finale. Stuff like dynamics and articulation markings run into notes STILL. AAAAAAHHHH


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## bryla (Apr 16, 2019)

Okay. Good to know it's the way it's done. Then I don't have to waste energy on thinking I'm doing something wrong.


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## cmillar (Apr 16, 2019)

bbunker said:


> I may be the only human being who really, really likes Speedy Entry. I can't stand the entry methods where you type in the note names, because the mechanical action of typing "A" and "C" (for example) doesn't feel as musical as pressing the up arrow twice to make a third.



I'd like to use 'Speedy', but I can't wrap my head around seeing all the squished-up notes in the bar-window if I actually use Finale instead of pencil/paper for some composing.

So, I'm used to playing a MIDI keyboard for any notating/composing I do. Have tried to punch in notes QWERTY style, but it's not for my way of thinking.

'Speedy' actually slows me down! (... the beauty of Sibelius' version of 'Speedy Entry / Finale emulation' is that it automatically spaces the notes out as you compose.

How's Dorico for this? Does Dorico do 'Speedy-style' or 'Simple Entry style (duration before pitch) ?

Also...anyone familiar with Finale/Sibelius/Dorico.... some questions to rock the boat here:

I'm not a big film composer, but have done some smaller (but quality clients) documentaries and independent short films. So, I could actually care less about the development of notation software and the way they in which they can try to load in huge sound libraries and templates and try to replace actual dedicated DAW's...I'm just not that interested. I'd rather use my DAW for playing in sketches or scores that I've sketched out by hand in the first place.

Some big Dorico (or Finale!) thoughts and questions:

- will Dorico/Finale/Sibelius be around years from now and be available for us 'simple' users? You know...those of us that just want to notate and print out parts for real musicians? Or will you always have to upgrade to the 'latest-greatest-most-powerful' computers just to get some nice notation program?
- will these notation programs stay compatible with Windows 10 or Mac OSX 10.11.6 for many, many years to come?
- or, will the developers keep thinking that creating a DAW/notation program is their future?
- notation programs don't need to be 'bloated'....do they?

It's all enough to make me just get another electric pencil sharpener and print out reams of score paper! (....that, really, is still the fastest way to compose)

Any thoughts welcome!


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## wcreed51 (Apr 16, 2019)

The Finale user's group (not the MM one) is a valuable resource:

https://www.finaleforum.com/


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## bryla (Apr 16, 2019)

wcreed51 said:


> The Finale user's group (not the MM one) is a valuable resource:
> 
> https://www.finaleforum.com/


Thanks! Looks like I'm gonna be posting there


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## Rob (Apr 16, 2019)

And it could be a good idea to get yourself the "TGtools" plugin pack... makes lots of things easier, like tremolos, harmonics, editings and manipulations of various nature...


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## jamwerks (Apr 16, 2019)

@bryla there's an option you need to select to not have that problem with dynamics. I'll check it out tomorrow.


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## JT (Apr 16, 2019)

bryla said:


> For example I can't seem to position the _ppp_ under the note and have the hairpin start immediately afterwards and only last to just before the _p_. It's seems like an either/or setting.


You would have to adjust the hairpin manually in your screen shot. 

But, what are the oboes and clarinets doing in these same measures. Very often they're playing something similar with the same hairpins. If so, adjust the flute hairpin manually, then with your mouse grab the flute hairpin and all the hairpins on the lower staves, then control-click the flute hairpin, a menu will appear, choose align vertically. All of the hairpins now will be adjusted like the flute measure hairpin. It's a big time saver.


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## JT (Apr 16, 2019)

cmillar said:


> - will Dorico/Finale/Sibelius be around years from now and be available for us 'simple' users? You know...those of us that just want to notate and print out parts for real musicians? Or will you always have to upgrade to the 'latest-greatest-most-powerful' computers just to get some nice notation program?
> - will these notation programs stay compatible with Windows 10 or Mac OSX 10.11.6 for many, many years to come?
> - or, will the developers keep thinking that creating a DAW/notation program is their future?
> - notation programs don't need to be 'bloated'....do they?
> ...


IMO, Dorico/Finale/Sibelius will all be around for a while. Dorico knew notation is a relatively small market, but they jumped in the deep end anyway. I'm always hearing how Finale won't be around much longer. But Finale isn't the big moneymaker that keeps things moving, SmartMusic is. And currently, you use Finale to create Smartmusic files. That leaves Sibelius. If one leaves the market I would guess that it's going to be Sibelius simply for the fact that they have chosen a subscription model. Sibelius 7.5 was the last version I bought. I'm not alone. Once Dorico becomes more complete I expect it to attract more cross-overs.

The comment about pencil and paper being the fastest way to compose, not as far as I'm concerned.
Pencil and paper may be a more tactile way of working, but its way slower than its digital counterparts.


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## cmillar (Apr 16, 2019)

I'm all in for Dorico...if it would create a Finale-like 'Speedy Entry' (choose notes from MIDI keyboard; and then choose duration for input)... but with the automatic spacing capability like Sibelius does for the same way of note entry.

That'd make it the big cheese.


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## bryla (Apr 17, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> @bryla there's an option you need to select to not have that problem with dynamics. I'll check it out tomorrow.


It was 'Snap When Attaching To Beats' in the Smart Shape Menu that had to be unchecked


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## bryla (Apr 17, 2019)

Rob said:


> And it could be a good idea to get yourself the "TGtools" plugin pack... makes lots of things easier, like tremolos, harmonics, editings and manipulations of various nature...


I see what easy tremolos and harmonics do, but what about the others? I thought maybe that Align/Move Dynamics might help me in this situation but it doesn't seem to do that much.


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## jamwerks (Apr 17, 2019)

Aligne/move dynamics is very useful. I use it about 50 of the time for edits of that type. It will get the vertical thing done for you at least. You'll want to select more or less measure depending on the situation. I work with small numbers in the "vertical" box and re-click until correct.


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## Rob (Apr 17, 2019)

bryla said:


> I see what easy tremolos and harmonics do, but what about the others? I thought maybe that Align/Move Dynamics might help me in this situation but it doesn't seem to do that much.


Obviously it depends on what kind of use you need finale for... in addition to what already said, I use tgtools for:
Breaking primary-secondary beams
Cautionary accidentals
Expand/compress spacing
Extract notes from chords
Program keystrokes for almost anything in Finale
Hairpins creation, with a start/end offset that you specify
many other things like l.v. etcetera

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the full commercial version of TGtools, not the included scaled-down plugin in Finale


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## bryla (Apr 17, 2019)

I'm on V25 and just had a look at V26. Does it eliminate the necessity for third party plug-ins?


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## Rob (Apr 17, 2019)

As far as I know the only new thing in 26 is auto stacking of articulations... but in 25 you can do everything, it’s not that you need external plugins. The reason why I use TGT is simply speed, as I always am on tight deadlines


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## jamwerks (Apr 17, 2019)

V26 will also place trems automatically on stems I believe, but for me was also buggier, so I went back to V25.


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## JT (Apr 17, 2019)

26 on a Mac has big speed improvements over 25. On the Mac side, both 25 & 26 will get speed benefits by opening in "Low resolution mode".

TGTools is a must, align dynamics & hairpins aligns all items in selected measures horizontally. ALso "Modify/Transfer" will take a layout that you tweaked for let's say Flute 1, and allows you to duplicate that layout in Flute 2 with a few clicks.

The JW plugins are also great, they're free but you can make a donation also.
https://www.finaletips.nu/


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