# Trailer vs Epic: Whats the difference? [tips/advice/insight etc,]



## Dean (Jul 28, 2015)

*Note:If epic or trailer music does'nt float your boat,..gets your goat up or makes you throw up in your mouth there are other threads floating around where you can tear these genres a new one!(Why theres even a thread here that has become the very definition of 'epic' itself!*) *In other words this thread is more about giving practical advice,guidance insight and tips.*

A few people have asked about the differences between epic and trailer,which does seem like a grey area sometimes so I thought Id post my reply here aswell and hopefully others working in the field can provide insight,advice,nuggets etc.(or you can leave me hanging,I'll tuck my tail and take my leave!  )

IMO there are alot of similarities between the epic and trailer styles for sure,my take on the differences are as follows;

*Epic music*: has broader tones / themes including adventure,etheral,fantasy,uplifting,dissonance/exciting/thrilling.
*Trailer music*: has more specific tones/themes such as emotional/tension/urgency/power/darkness/drive/struggle.
(and 'gravitas',..I hear that alot from clients.)
*Epic music*: can have more complex score like orchestration,more 'lyrical' passages,ebbing and flowing,flourishes etc.
*Trailer music*: has a more more distilled/focused/linear structure & tone,one powerful cohesive idea that builds and builds.layers and layers,..like a freight train picking up momentum untill the last stop!
*Epic music*: instrumentation can include tpts/ww's/metals/violins/LOTR style etheral and deep male choirs etc,
*Trailer music*: generally try to avoid the above instruments (especially trumpets and anvils/metals),..trailers have a more rounded,deeper,robust sound,..a much darker tone overall.

These are just things Ive noticed along the way as I work on trailers Im simplifying here and there,..theres lots of crossover too re very dark tones,drive,urgency etc, in epic but I can't remember the last time I was asked for something adventurous,uplifting,fantasy.

ps:Im mainly talking about the bedrock of both styles here (the orchestra,theme,tone) I'm not really getting into hybrid,sound design,raging guitars,drum kits,chanting(shouting choirs),Industrial,dystopian,dub-step and so on. D


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## mwarsell (Jul 28, 2015)

Already liked this post somewhere, amazing, very relevant stuff. Thank you, Dean! Not sure how do you manage to be so active here with all your projects, but I (and others too I'm pretty sure) are very thankful.


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## rJames (Jul 28, 2015)

From my perspective, epic is just one genre within trailer music.
I think of trailer music as a structure.
(Not arguing with Dean, just a different perspective)
Trailer music (from this perspective) is any music that is written specifically to be used in motion picture advertising. 
There's a lot of pop and indie music used in trailers, but since it's not written with advertising as its main use, I don't include it. 
Trailer music is written with short stories, transitions and suspended pauses in its form. 
The big budget films will have more ads, so the chance of landing a license is greater with the Marvel franchises than with indie dramatic comedies. That's why people talk about trailer music as epic. More licenses there...more composers there. Plus, even action movies use epic cause everything is bigger than life in the movies.
Trailer music for comedies is not epic (unless they are playing the contrast). For thriller; not epic. Suspense, horror; not epic. 
But all these movies use a similar structure consisting of a short form, alternate transitions and endings, stops and dramatic pauses. 
To refer to the other "why do they want to be," thread... the epic trailer form wants to be blatant, give it to us straight, don't get all artsy on us. Trailer music wants to strike a memory in the general audience's subconscious. I'm totally generalizing here.
Ron


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## Daryl (Jul 28, 2015)

I sort of agree with Ron, except that I see them as two different sets, with an intersection.


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## Dean (Jul 28, 2015)

Guys, interesting points!..if its possible could you elaborate with any practical advice,techniques too (if not thats cool too.) Kind of looking at this thread as a loose tutorial/guide of sorts for folks breaking into this style of composition. D


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## Jaap (Jul 28, 2015)

I also sort of agree with Ron as well.

Epic is for me: WHOOOHOOOO

While Trailer is: wwww - hhhhoo(whoohoo?) - WHOOHOOO!!!! - (whoohoo is coming to your cinema soon)

To be a bit more serious. Epic is more a "state of mind" while Trailer is more form and as said before as well, a lot of trailer works have the epic sound, while not persé all trailers need to be epic nor that every epic piece is suited for trailers.


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## D.Salzenberg (Jul 28, 2015)

Hi Dean, I'm new on here after lurking for a while, and working on trailer tracks to submit to some libraries.
I've been studying trailer music a lot for the last twelve months (including your excellent Soundcloud page!)
It seems there are a lot of crossovers between Epic and Trailer music. Some trailer composers e.g. TSFH or Twelve Titans are definitely doing the Epic thing, but then there's also a lot of trailer music that isn't really Epic, e.g. Ninja Tracks and Heavy Melody.
Personally I kind of prefer the darker sound, rather than the heroic uplifting more traditional orchestral vibe, so that's what I'm working on myself.
David.


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## mwarsell (Jul 28, 2015)

"Don't get all artsy on us" lol! Epic 

Probably shouldn't post here with red wine circulating thru me, nothing substantial to say...  well...

Btw can't get enough of Zimmer's Man of Steel -trailer. Incredible stuff.


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## rJames (Jul 28, 2015)

Honestly, I don't compete in the epic trailer space. My licenses come from either fantasy/adventure or lacerating, murderous Fx.
But you can hear the form in every trailer.
But you don't hear full cues in trailers ... The story changes so fast, you hear :15 of each cue with layers and layers of Fx. It's sort of tough to figure out which hits go with the cue and which are the additional layers. (Generalizations)
You hear one kind of "stop," in a comedy... Arpeggio up to a stop then the dialog comes up for the funny line payoff.
The action stop might be after an intro that leaves you in an empty dark reverb. Somehow full, wide and atmospheric but empty. 
At the end of an action trailer maybe the strings and synths rise, pounding to a stop... Pause...final title settles in the dust of a second ending. 
Think about what kind of transitions like that fit in your cue.
Editors will undoubtedly cut your cue to pieces but it needs to be written so that if...IF...they ever get a chance to hear it, they will see how they can use your cue to make this trailer better than any they've ever edited before.
Ron
PS just my opinion from watching trailers and writing for myself and other producers.


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## Dean (Jul 28, 2015)

Hey Ron,
You're right,there is alot of splicing and dicing of several tracks in alot of trailers (I know you're generalising) but not as much as you might think,.alot of high end trailers only use 2 tracks for the whole trailer and in other cases just one track is used with some editing/cuts/sfx of course.

You're spot on about how you present your track too,.and if you can put set-pieces or signature sounds or interesting intros /outros into your track the music editor will pick up on that and you can land a trailer gig based on a section of your cue. D


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## Dean (Jul 29, 2015)

Just wanted to post this wee Q&A here too,(from another thread):

I've heard that for trailer tracks it's generally a good idea to have climaxes at around 1:30, 2:00, and/or 2:30. I originally had this track set up to hit on 1:30 and 2:00, but now it's all sort of jumbled up. I don't know if that would affect placement? I could easily edit it to fit if requested.

Forget all that crap.  [edit: Im being tongue in cheek here,its not crap.)
There are many different styles of trailer,..Slowburners that build , explosive tracks with dramatic pauses , emotional theme based , aggressive ear bleeding hybrid etc,..Dont force your cues to hit exact marks,editors love surprises too so if a track naturally runs at 4 - 6 mins noyone cares as long as you have a killer theme / set-peice / section / intro that grabs them. Think of your cue as an overall presentation or showcase,..if youre lucky they will run with a certain section of you're cue,if youre really,really,really lucky and your cue is that strong and cohesive they'll run with the whole thing!


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## D.Salzenberg (Jul 29, 2015)

Dean said:


> Just wanted to post this wee Q&A here too,(from another thread):
> 
> I've heard that for trailer tracks it's generally a good idea to have climaxes at around 1:30, 2:00, and/or 2:30. I originally had this track set up to hit on 1:30 and 2:00, but now it's all sort of jumbled up. I don't know if that would affect placement? I could easily edit it to fit if requested.
> 
> ...



Dean, I remember reading something by Lex I think it was, sorry if it was someone else, who said to structure your trailer intro into 30secs or 1 min. Do you not think that is a good idea? I'm trying to complete a set of six tracks with the aim of submitting to Position Music, Pusher Music, Fringe Element etc. Should I forget about hit points based on 30 sec intervals?
Many thanks, David


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## Jaap (Jul 29, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> Dean, I remember reading something by Lex I think it was, sorry if it was someone else, who said to structure your trailer intro into 30secs or 1 min. Do you not think that is a good idea? I'm trying to complete a set of six tracks with the aim of submitting to Position Music, Pusher Music, Fringe Element etc. Should I forget about hit points based on 30 sec intervals?
> Many thanks, David



Correct, that was Lex in this topic: http://vi-control.net/community/ind...ilers-loves-it-and-make-a-living-at-it.46203/

Scroll down a few posts to see that post. Very valuable information!


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## Dean (Jul 29, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> Dean, I remember reading something by Lex I think it was, sorry if it was someone else, who said to structure your trailer intro into 30secs or 1 min. Do you not think that is a good idea? I'm trying to complete a set of six tracks with the aim of submitting to Position Music, Pusher Music, Fringe Element etc. Should I forget about hit points based on 30 sec intervals?
> Many thanks, David



Hey David,
these are just my opinions based on my experience composing for trailers,..there are many,many ways to go about composing/structuring trailer cues,I think it depends on your personality/mindset and how you like to work.
Personally I rely on my instincts Ive never timed a section of music,I usually start with the idea/theme/tone then that usually dictates everything that comes next re intro/outro?.. Is this a slow burner?..builds and builds without stopdowns? Does it need lots of sound design?..does it need choir?

Ive written tracks that are under 2mins long and tracks that are nearly 6 mins long,..only because thats what the track needed,..say you have a track thats 6 mins (which is not the typical duration)it could have several stand out sections that might appeal to an editor and land you a trailer,that has happened to me a few times,I composed a massive 5 min cue and the guy picks the first 40 secs because of the 'still' atmosphere there that maybe all the other cues did'nt have.
You just never know what might resonate with the client so dont be a slave to the timings and structure too much is my point. D


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## rJames (Jul 29, 2015)

Dean said:


> ..say you have a track thats 6 mins (which is not the typical duration)it could have several stand out sections that might appeal to an editor and land you a trailer,that has happened to me a few times,I composed a massive 5 min cue and the guy picks the first 40 secs because of the 'still' atmosphere there that maybe all the other cues did'nt have.
> You just never know what might resonate with the client so dont be a slave to the timings and structure too much is my point. D


Remember that :30 and :60 tv spots are trailers too. I assume Lex's point was that accurate timings can only help... Never hurt, your chances.
Generally speaking, a 4 minute cue is overkill. If the cue does not immediately grab the music sup, your other parts may never be heard. Understanding how music starts and stops within a trailer is key. Study that. 
Ron
(Again, massive generalizations)


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## Dean (Jul 29, 2015)

Hey Ron, 
its great to hear about these different approaches to trailer/epic composition,..some guys are quite surgical about it and others are loosey goosey(guilty) 
I agree,the cue has to grab them from the get go but I think that has to be a given no matter how long your cue is.
My point is more about the approach you take to get there,I find theres a natural feel to the durations and structure of trailer cues,Im sure if I went back and timed certain sections of cues I did that they would be around the 30 sec / 60 sec mark aswell. 
I dont think 4mins is overkill,Ive had placements from tracks that length,..sometimes the section I thought about cutting out (so I can have a shorter running time) ends up being placed in a trailer.
Either way interesting stuff. D


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## Jaap (Jul 29, 2015)

Just saw this interview posted in the a few facebook music groups and fits the discussion here I think 
http://blog.synchtank.com/the-art-of-trailer-music-with-music-supervisor-vanessa-jorge-perry


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## Dean (Jul 29, 2015)

Thats a good read! It demonstrates that ,beside some the very rigid aspects/structures of trailer composition its pretty wide open too. D


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## kunst91 (Jul 29, 2015)

Dean said:


> *Epic music*: instrumentation can include tpts/ww's/metals/violins/LOTR style etheral and deep male choirs etc,
> *Trailer music*: generally try to avoid the above instruments (especially trumpets and anvils/metals),..trailers have a more rounded,deeper,robust sound,..a much darker tone overall


Hey Dean, awesome post, really informative for us looking to break into the trailer music scene. I'm in the middle of writing my first tracks for a real company (not just my demo reel!) so this is extremely helpful. Would you mind elaborating on your point about orchestration? For instance I feel like I've heard violins on pretty much every trailer track this year. Do you mean that they aren't used traditionally? Or that they're just generally not used?


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## Dean (Jul 30, 2015)

kunst91 said:


> Hey Dean, awesome post, really informative for us looking to break into the trailer music scene. I'm in the middle of writing my first tracks for a real company (not just my demo reel!) so this is extremely helpful. Would you mind elaborating on your point about orchestration? For instance I feel like I've heard violins on pretty much every trailer track this year. Do you mean that they aren't used traditionally? Or that they're just generally not used?



Hey,
re violins: no you need violins for sure!  I mean that for that typical 'trailer sound' if you have a solo string instrument or a soaring violin string section,usually you'd go with solo vc over solo vn and also double that soaring vn section with vcs/vas.This gives a more rounded/deeper and powerful sound overall.

Its really a tone or sound youre looking for,..a solo violin conjours up sadness in a fragile,beautiful way where as a cello (because of the register and tone) feels darker,brooding..violins give 'air',bite,presence,beauty,fragility,they rise above everything and cut though the orchestra but you need to have that powerful mid/bottom range carrying the tone of the track.

Note: Im generalising here,violins can be very aggressive,dark and atmospheric when played in lower registers/harmonics etc,..depends on how you use them. D


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## Jetzer (Jul 30, 2015)

Thank you for all this insight, Dean. Really inspiring and helpful.


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## kunst91 (Jul 30, 2015)

Yes, thank you!!


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## Dean (Jul 30, 2015)

Im hoping some other trailer composers might chime in too,..you guys out there? D


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## D.Salzenberg (Jul 31, 2015)

Hey Dean, Many thanks for starting this thread, some good info so far!


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## Dean (Jul 31, 2015)

No probs, if you can think of anything post it here too. D


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## D.Salzenberg (Jul 31, 2015)

I know its difficult to generalise, but would you say that if you are aspiring to write cinema trailers, then its best to avoid rock drums, hi hats, cymbals, breakbeats etc, and stick with programming more minimal deeper orchestral percussion and taikos etc?


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## Dean (Jul 31, 2015)

Hey, for trailers I would say avoid any ear piercing metals in general,(chimes/hi-hats/bell trees/glocks/triangles.)
Cymbals are great for big moments as long as they're not dominant or harsh (like a marching band  )
Re rock drumkits and trailer cues: That totally depends on the style youre going after and how you do it,a massive hybrid track with heavy soundesign is one way but it can be a very tricky thing if youre just laying a drumkit into an orchestral trailer cue,its really hard to 'place' a drumkit with an orchestra without it jumping out and changing the style and tone. (unless thats your after?)
I've only once used a drumkit in an epic cue (not Trailer) just for fun. D


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## Dean (Jul 31, 2015)

I thought they were more working trailer guys out there willing to chime in,..maybe not? (I'll soldier on.)  D


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## Greg (Jul 31, 2015)

Good point Dean about avoiding metals. I would take that a step further and recommend to not let your mixes get too hyped up in the high range either. Tracks like that make for a good TV spot, super compressed with the bass limited for extra loudness so the highs really scream in your face. However, in theatres it gets played back way too loud and always makes me cringe. Especially compared to a nice dark, properly dynamic cinematic cue.


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## Greg (Jul 31, 2015)

Another thing to consider when writing for trailers is how you're using your bass frequencies. I hear quite often the bass is practically ignored in some beginner epic music. Analogy synths, drums at low velocities, and drones work really well for filling that out. With powerful bass filling up the mix, it allows you to be more minimal on top of that, while still having a nice full cinematic sound.

I remember at least 3 times sitting in a music supervisor or editors office listening to music and when the low cinematic bass fills the room, their eyes start to twinkle or they're straight up like.."fck yeah!"

Then I giggle inside because they often don't have good acoustics and the bass in their small editing bays is just insane. Thankfully I think most use headphones unless they have company. Audiotechnica ath-m50s I've seen most often, for what thats worth!


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## Dean (Jul 31, 2015)

Great points Greg! D


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## kunst91 (Aug 1, 2015)

Greg said:


> Another thing to consider when writing for trailers is how you're using your bass frequencies. I hear quite often the bass is practically ignored in some beginner epic music. Analogy synths, drums at low velocities, and drones work really well for filling that out. With powerful bass filling up the mix, it allows you to be more minimal on top of that, while still having a nice full cinematic sound.
> 
> I remember at least 3 times sitting in a music supervisor or editors office listening to music and when the low cinematic bass fills the room, their eyes start to twinkle or they're straight up like.."fck yeah!"
> 
> Then I giggle inside because they often don't have good acoustics and the bass in their small editing bays is just insane. Thankfully I think most use headphones unless they have company. Audiotechnica ath-m50s I've seen most often, for what thats worth!



Awesome!


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## rJames (Aug 2, 2015)

Extremely dynamic underscore.


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## D.Salzenberg (Aug 10, 2015)

Interesting comments about avoiding metals etc, thank you, great tips so far. I'm coming from a guitar background, so am only just getting my head around orchestral writing as part of trailer cues. I'm getting to understand what the strings and brass need to be doing, albeit on a quite simplistic level, but never hear much woodwinds in modern hybrid trailers or even movie scores for that matter. I'm into the darker end of trailer music, not the fantasy adventure side, where I do hear more woodwinds. Do you think it's cool to just forget the woodwinds for hybrid trailer writing?


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## Dean (Aug 11, 2015)

I dont get it,..there are so many threads and endless discussions about trailer music here yet only one or two at most chimed in to help the new guys out?

Hey DSalzenberg, If you check my other posts its all there re trailer v Epic,woodwinds etc.  D


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## rJames (Aug 11, 2015)

Couple of things here.
1) When the trend is to not use trumpets, time to use trumpets...etc. The music just has to work! (personal opinion)
2) I don't think a lot of people in trailer music want to share their "secret sauce." Can't blame them.


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## kunst91 (Aug 11, 2015)

rJames said:


> Couple of things here.
> 1) When the trend is to not use trumpets, time to use trumpets...etc. The music just has to work! (personal opinion)



Definitely a good point, from what I've seen in my extremely (extremely!!) limited experience in the industry is that it's more about using the already established conventions in new ways. I for one am having a difficult time coming up with a spic string sound that hasn't been done before. All about sound design I guess!


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## Dean (Aug 11, 2015)

rJames said:


> Couple of things here.
> 1) When the trend is to not use trumpets, time to use trumpets...etc. The music just has to work! (personal opinion)
> 2) I don't think a lot of people in trailer music want to share their "secret sauce." Can't blame them.



I think its more important to nail the basic sound,tone and structure first,..when you've mastered that then you can push the envelope and tear it apart.(but feel free to knock yourself out with Tpts too!  )

I think theres a huge difference between giving advice on structure,tone,instrumentation etc, and giving away your secrets,..but to each his own.

People debate the state of trailer music here all the time,..but with a little bit of help it might raise the bar that some folks feel is way down in the gutter,..if that increases the competition then all the better for the state of trailer music.

D


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## D.Salzenberg (Aug 11, 2015)

Hey Dean, for guys like me eager to learn all I can about trailer music, any advice from people actually doing it very successfully as a career, such as yourself, is like gold dust. I really appreciate the time you take to do that, and hope some of the other guys can chip in a bit more too when they have time.
Don't think anyone is expecting anyone to give away their own particular secret recipe, if there even is one, but advice from those working at the top level is invaluable.
Dave


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## Dean (Aug 15, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> Hey Dean, for guys like me eager to learn all I can about trailer music, any advice from people actually doing it very successfully as a career, such as yourself, is like gold dust. I really appreciate the time you take to do that, and hope some of the other guys can chip in a bit more too when they have time.
> Don't think anyone is expecting anyone to give away their own particular secret recipe, if there even is one, but advice from those working at the top level is invaluable.
> Dave



Hey Dave, thanks!..(maybe there are alot less working trailer composers around here than I thought?)...but thats ok. D


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## emid (Aug 16, 2015)

Dean said:


> Hey Dave, thanks!..(maybe there are alot less working trailer composers around here than I thought?)...but thats ok. D



Hey Dean very good suggestions. I think you need to tag people you know who could chime in. Sometimes threads go unnoticed. Tag people like @RiffWraith @Blakus @Guy Rowland @Daniel James @Waywyn etc who may be willing to contribute. Great thread though!


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## Dean (Aug 16, 2015)

I just wanted to add a very important caveat: Trailer music has some very specific rules/guidelines/structures as discussed but the most important thing is to always follow the music,go with your instincts first,if a cue your working on 'bucks the trend' but sounds incredible (ie: no percussion/no ostinatos/no choirs,..5 min duration etc,)..thats great too,go with it.

You may have a track thats a much harder sell to potential clients but on the other hand you might end up with a truely original composition that could garner you just as much attention and make you stand out from the pack a little,..it could work for that one in a million trailer project,..who knows? D


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## Greg (Aug 16, 2015)

Another important tidbit is how to conceptualize your melodies when writing trailer music. Unless the score is completely driving the trailer, there has to be room within the melody for the trailer to breathe and have dialog.

The dialog here is practically counterpoint to Thomas' soaring horn line, and it is really effective:


Another example of stunning melodic pacing and how it works with the edit:


Or you can opt for no melody at all and just build the chord progression:


And finally, these are all examples of amazing compositions. That's what I love the most about working on trailer music. The standards can be set exceptionally high, and I find that extremely motivating!


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## mikehamm123 (Jun 27, 2016)

A few observations:

I've never noticed a relationship between the opening music of a trailer, and the end part.

The Zimmer foghorn thing may be on its way out already, too soon to tell.

Strings/horns/choirs are everywhere.

Pounding drums (I call them "Camerons") have been a mainstay for, what, 15-20 years?

The point that a trailer is a 'short story' is a good one.

Can't go wrong with lots of pauses and button/stinger endings.

It was news to me that the clunks and whooshes are often not part of the original music, but are added in by the music editor. True?


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## kunst91 (Jun 27, 2016)

mikehamm123 said:


> A few observations:
> 
> It was news to me that the clunks and whooshes are often not part of the original music, but are added in by the music editor. True?



Yes, and many studios specialize in creating these sound design elements in addition to full trailer tracks.


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## mikehamm123 (Jun 28, 2016)

kunst91 said:


> Yes, and many studios specialize in creating these sound design elements in addition to full trailer tracks.



Do the filmmakers prefer they be *left out*? 

(I just got patches that make some of those sounds, lol)


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## Ashermusic (Jun 28, 2016)

Greg said:


> Another important tidbit is how to conceptualize your melodies when writing trailer music. Unless the score is completely driving the trailer, there has to be room within the melody for the trailer to breathe and have dialog.
> 
> The dialog here is practically counterpoint to Thomas' soaring horn line, and it is really effective:
> 
> ...




Greg, while all three of these trailers are well crafted and work nicely, the fact that anyone would describe them as "amazing compositions" truly troubles me.


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## JohnG (Jun 28, 2016)

Jay, a lot of people might say the same of 1970s pop tunes or 1980s film music or...just about any kind of commercial music you want to name. 

Writing a piece of music for a commercial purpose that sounds good and has "something to it" is pretty difficult, in my experience, and these pieces each have something going on. Sometimes, it's an arresting vocal concept, or amazing beat, or weaving of sound design; the stand-by Carmina Burana knockoff is not happening anymore, from what I am seeing, notwithstanding some of the casual dismissiveness in this thread.

Besides, the minimum production standards for this genre are lofty.

Like any niche out there, it sounds easy until you try competing.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 28, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Jay, a lot of people might say the same of 1970s pop tunes or 1980s film music or...just about any kind of commercial music you want to name.
> 
> Writing a piece of music for a commercial purpose that sounds good and has "something to it" is pretty difficult, in my experience, and these pieces each have something going on. Sometimes, it's an arresting vocal concept, or amazing beat, or weaving of sound design; the stand-by Carmina Burana knockoff is not happening anymore, from what I am seeing, notwithstanding some of the casual dismissiveness in this thread.
> 
> ...



Which is why I said it was well crafted and never said that was easy to do. But to call it "amazing compositions" in a world where you can listen to outstanding concert hall music, jazz, adventurous rock, film scores, heck even Two Steps From Hell, depresses me.


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## JohnG (Jun 28, 2016)

Arguably, they are amazing, at least in the context of "big movie" trailer music, for avoiding some of the over-used conventions of the genre. I'd say in addition that the production values of each of the three are at a very high standard as well.

I see music praised every day to the stars that is far more pedestrian than this and I just don't like to see it dismissed or someone's enthusiasm dumped on. As far as I know, Jay, you've never worked in this area; it's harder than it looks, so I'd just ask a little patience -- from you and others -- with those who admire it, even if that admiration seems excessive.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 28, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Arguably, they are amazing, at least in the context of "big movie" trailer music, for avoiding some of the over-used conventions of the genre. I'd say in addition that the production values of each of the three are at a very high standard as well.
> 
> I see music praised every day to the stars that is far more pedestrian than this and I just don't like to see it dismissed or someone's enthusiasm dumped on. As far as I know, Jay, you've never worked in this area; it's harder than it looks, so I'd just ask a little patience -- from you and others -- with those who admire it, even if that admiration seems excessive.



Actually I did one trailer and I did a good job in my opinion and the client's opinion, but "amazing composition" it was not. 

Sorry John, but to me, words matter. "Amazing composition' is what was written and I am a sworn enemy of hyperbole, whether it is from excess of enthusiasm or excess of frustration.


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## Greg (Jun 28, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Actually I did one trailer and I did a good job in my opinion and the client's opinion, but "amazing composition" it was not.
> 
> Sorry John, but to me, words matter. "Amazing composition' is what was written and I am a sworn enemy of hyperbole, whether it is from excess of enthusiasm or excess of frustration.



I meant it very literally. Sorry to make you spit your morning coffee all over the screen Jay. Maybe theres more to composition than lots of notes.


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## JohnG (Jun 28, 2016)

You know Jay, maybe you did one trailer. But to plop into a thread and poop on someone's enthusiasm seems frankly like some old guy saying "they don't write music like they used to." What do you want? A fugue? Jerry Goldsmith? Those pieces each have something very special about them and are, arguably, amazing.

I have done a lot of trailers and I think those are good ones, conceptually, production-wise, and yes, musically.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 28, 2016)

Greg said:


> I meant it very literally. Sorry to make you spit your morning coffee all over the screen Jay. Maybe theres more to composition than lots of notes.



Sure, some of the greatest music has been simple. That is very competent music but once again the idea that _anyone_ would think of it as "amazing composition" depresses me.

@ John, we are going to have to agree to disagree. This is the McDonalds-ization of musical standards IMHO.


Asher out _(drops the microphone)
_


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## JohnG (Jun 28, 2016)

"depresses me"

You demonstrate contempt and dismissiveness for other members sometimes Jay, whether you realise it or not.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 28, 2016)

JohnG said:


> "depresses me"
> 
> You demonstrate contempt and dismissiveness for other members sometimes Jay, whether you realise it or not.




Sorry John, I simply tell the truth as I see it. If others disagree, I am fine with it.


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## JohnG (Jun 28, 2016)

What happened to "Asher out?" Another thread that you have come into with practically zero knowledge of the genre and made all about you. I am really bored of that, Jay.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 28, 2016)

JohnG said:


> What happened to "Asher out?" Another thread that you have come into with practically zero knowledge of the genre and made all about you. I am really bored of that, Jay.



You addressed me by name John, so i assumed you wanted a response, not just to take a parting shot. I guess I misunderstood.


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## JohnG (Jun 28, 2016)

You misinterpreted.


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## mikehamm123 (Jun 28, 2016)

A music cue can be simple but effective--if its very effective, it can be 'amazing' even if its not concert-hall stuff.


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## mikehamm123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Gentelmen, you can't fight in here! This is the Epic Trailer thread!


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## kunst91 (Jun 28, 2016)

mikehamm123 said:


> Do the filmmakers prefer they be *left out*?
> 
> (I just got patches that make some of those sounds, lol)



Usually I include full mixes with sound design elements as well as alt mixes with no sound design. There are also pure sound design releases that might feature 500-600 sound design elements including hits, rises, glitches, textures, 1-2 minute sound design cues, etc.

Also FWIW trailer composers are asked every day to reinvent the wheel, which is one of the music difficult things to do. Editors and supervisors are always looking for something fresh and different, but at the same time they want composers to stick to certain formulae/conventions. The composers who are able to solve this conundrum on a regular basis are brilliant at what they do. It may not be for everyone, but I have a great deal of respect for them.


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## mikehamm123 (Jun 28, 2016)

Thanks for the tip, Kunst. 

I've been listening to lots of trailers these last few months and its interesting to track the styles and similarities/differences.

Anyone have a favorite recent trailer?


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## Dean (Jun 30, 2016)

mikehamm123 said:


> Do the filmmakers prefer they be *left out*?


 Some directors like Chris Nolan are very hands on with the trailers for their films [or should I say 'Hans' on?  sorry.] D


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## waveheavy (Jul 10, 2017)

I eventually learned there's a specific form structure trailer composers use as a guideline, and they don't stray too far from it (no, it's not a 3 act structure). In that sense, it is different than a simple epic track which may be more in depth musically and without much of the braams, whooshes, and downers. Also there's orchestral trailers and sound design trailers and cover trailers. The sound design trailers have very little that is musical; it's mostly FX.


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## rJames (Jul 11, 2017)

mikehamm123 said:


> I've been listening to lots of trailers these last few months and its interesting to track the styles and similarities/differences.


If you are studying, this is what its all about isn't it?


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## mikehamm123 (Jul 11, 2017)

rJames said:


> If you are studying, this is what its all about isn't it?



I guess so.

Here is a pretty cliche intro I did... should conjure up Liam Neeson coming home to an empty house or something:


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