# HZ Strings First Look VIDEO - Full Live Stream (w/chatroom)



## Daniel James

Hey all,

I just did a 5 hour live stream looking at the entirety of the HZ String library by Spitfire.

A decent library which I have some issues with....as I go into, at length in the stream.

I understand the sort of reaction I am going to get with this one for various reasons. But please if you are going to object to or try to refute my opinion please at least watch for my justification behind it, so I don't have to repeat myself over and over.

-DJ


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## FabioA

Cool video! Thanks for that.
Totally agree with you about the big knob. To me it totally looks like a generic Kontakt library GUI (NI Symphonic Series, Heavyocity, OT, etc.)
As you said it looks clean, futuristic, very "apple style"; I'm sure there is a top research behind this design; but it looks like a cool handy game, not a professional tool to work with. They probably see us as babies playing with toys, that's it.


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## VinRice

FabioA said:


> Cool video! Thanks for that.
> Totally agree with you about the big knob. First of all, it totally looks like a generic Kontakt library GUI (NI Symphonic Series, Heavyocity, OT, etc.)
> As you said it looks clean, futuristic, very "apple style"; but it looks like a cool game, not a professional tool to work with. They probably see us as babies playing with toys, that's it.



Absolute bollocks...


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## FabioA

Oh, thank you for your undeniable arguments!


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## Øivind

nice video. i hope they release a lite version with just the close, tree and ambient/outriggers.


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## Ron Kords

If you expect to be knocking it in from the half way line because you have the same boots as David Beckham you're gonna be dissapointed....


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## Daniel James

VinRice said:


> Absolute bollocks...



Not at all. As I mentioned in the video. Its form over function. Looks nice.... but has lots of dead wasted space. I have to click through way to many things to get to functions I want. Also it makes trying to get a mic balance a pain when you might be layering one from page 1 of mics to page 5, would help to just have them layed out. Or at least more to a page. Same with the articulations.....and that big knob. There is no need for the big knob, just put the 4 knobs in its place.

You could easily get all of the important functions in the top half no problem and have the bottom be just mic positions. Might not look as pretty but would be much more streamlined to use.

Lemme throw a dirty photoshop together.

-DJ


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## Daniel James

This is function over form, not as pretty but all the controls are instantly accessible. I would much rather have the option to work fast than to have all that wasted space. Its as if the designers have never seen an analog synth before....we can handle lots of parameters on one page.


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## Daniel James

Ron Kords said:


> If you expect to be knocking it in from the half way line because you have the same boots as David Beckham you're gonna be dissapointed....



Yeah...If you bought David Beckhams boots but actually got a pair of slippers you would be disappointed wouldn't you. "But they are so soft" yeah but I can't play football in them can I.

-DJ


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## D Halgren

Daniel James said:


> This is function over form, not as pretty but all the controls are instantly accessible. I would much rather have the option to work fast than to have all that wasted space. Its as if the designers have never seen an analog synth before....we can handle lots of parameters on one page.


I totally agree with you on UI, but man that's ugly
It would give much easier access to everything though.


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## Daniel James

D Halgren said:


> I totally agree with you on UI, but man that's ugly
> It would give much easier access to everything though.



Im not a designer though. If you gave a design company that as a template they could make it pretty. I was demonstrating function over form. You could physically fit all that information on screen in one go, much more useful in long term practise.

-DJ


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## JohnG

I am really enjoying how it _sounds_, and I find the GUI to be inconsequential by comparison.


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## D Halgren

Daniel James said:


> Im not a designer though. If you gave a design company that as a template they could make it pretty. I was demonstrating function over form. You could physically fit all that information on screen in one go, much more useful in long term practise.
> 
> -DJ


I understand, just giving you a bit of friendly shite


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## Garry

Daniel James said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I just did a 5 hour live stream looking at the entirety of the HZ String library by Spitfire.
> 
> A decent library which I have some issues with....as I go into, at length in the stream.
> 
> I understand the sort of reaction I am going to get with this one for various reasons. But please if you are going to object to or try to refute my opinion please at least watch for my justification behind it, so I don't have to repeat myself over and over.
> 
> -DJ




I want to commend you Daniel for this. It’s easy for someone like me to state their opinion, but I’m a hobbyist, I don’t work in the industry, so I will not be impacted by expressing views which will challenge the mainstream. Congratulations to you for your honesty and bravery. I will watch all your previous and subsequent reviews with even greater respect, knowing that you provide an honest summary, palatable or not to the developers, and not the bland rubber stamping typical of other so called ‘reviews’. Whether people here agree or disagree with Daniel’s summary, I hope they will respect the fact that we need people like him to give honest opinions.

I also haven’t seen anyone but you Daniel do such a direct comparison between libraries: playing the same phrase for each library. In your comparison between Jaeger, CSS and HZS, the differences were minimal, and if anything, HZS to me sounded the thinnest of the 3. I hate to say it, because I’m a huge Spitfire fan, but that’s the truth.

When the HZS first came out, I compared how close I could get with Albion One to what Paul was playing with HZS. Pretty close! Add now with Tundra combined/layered, and I honestly don’t think the difference is reflected in the high price tag for HZS. Your comparisons with Albion One in the video also confirmed my first impressions. If anything, this is confirmation of just how good Albion One and Tundra are.

I’m genuinely pleased for those that bought HZS and love it; but for me, thanks Daniel for confirming this isn’t the library for me, and I can save my money for another day (probably to Spitfire...!).

And I totally love that GUI you photoshopped: actually reminds me of Hans Zimmer’s room layout!! Hey, so it’s even on brand!


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## Daniel James

JohnG said:


> I am really enjoying how it _sounds_, and I find the GUI to be inconsequential by comparison.



As I said in the video, I enjoy the sounds that are there, they are just not what one expects with the brand attached. And I have most of those types of sounds covered by Albion V.

I personally just didn't understand the decision to get 344 players then have them record more quiet articulations than big bombastic ones. You put Zimmer on something im expecting the size of interstellar and inception, im expecting the shorts flexibility and divisi of The Davinci Code and Batman. Im expecting the power of Pirates Of The Carribean. Instead we got 80% Albion V style patches done with more players.....with the articulations inconsistent across even the same section in a different seating position. Spitfire don't record bad sounding libraries. I have an issue with pretty much every other decision that was made for the library.

Again as I said in the video I don't fault Hans in it either. From what he has said he gave them his players, his layout, his mic placement, his recording team......he gave them literally everything he could to make it a 'Zimmer' sound ...but then they just made another Spitfire Strings library with it. THAT is what will get most people (as it did for me) while it IS Hans Zimmer's Strings (players placement mics etc) its not anything like Hans Zimmer's sound, it gives nothing of the impression of the legacy that comes with the brand Hans Zimmer. 

Even removing Hans the human man out of the situation, when you brand something with Hans Zimmer you EXPECT a certain direction...._you all know exactly what sound I mean_ and this library just isnt that....I am sure some will say that Hans writes soft pieces too but no one will ever name that as a 'typical' Zimmer sound, Watch his live show, note the bombasic to pppp ratio, notice how opposite to this library it is. Thats my biggest gripe. Call it Hans Zimmer Quiet Experiments I am good....Call it Christon Hensons signature series I would be fine with it. But when you brand something that sounds like Albion V as 'Hans Zimmer Strings' its just not what you expect, and that is why I was disappointed. 

Again it sounds great and its recorded well but its not what I wanted. And thats why in my video I am pointing that out to anyone else who expects the more bombastic styles that this library is not that. Its a Spitfire library through and through. If you like Spitfire you will probably like it regardless, but even though its Hans Zimmers actual strings, its nothing like his 'sound'.

-DJ


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## Alex Fraser

Hey Dan - you seriously looked kinda devastated and beat at the end of that stream. It's clear you put your heart into it. Hope you don't get too much grief.

I'd agree with a lot of what you said about the GUI. There's a lot of "form over function" going on - abstract icons instead of text etc. But the basics are down pat and with some tweaks and refinement, I think it'll be killer.

My one point of contention:
I do feel that despite the HZ name, the overall sound direction of the library has been clear for a while now. My expectations that the library would be an all out thundering monster were put to rest pretty quickly when I heard the initial offerings. I don't think there's been any mis-direction by SF or HZ as to what the library is. It's a huge string tool-kit with an emphasis on crafting the sound - and superb with it.

..but entertaining video mate. Very ranty. I didn't agree with all of it, but I respect the fact you put your balls on the line. I hope you don't get too much grief, and I hope the SF crew and HZ remember that it all comes from love.

My main takeaway from the video: I always regretted not getting the original Albion I, and now I'm seriously pi**ed I didn't.


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## Daniel James

Alex Fraser said:


> My main takeaway from the video: I always regretted not getting the original Albion I, and now I'm seriously pi**ed I didn't.



Thanks man! I actually use Albion 1 considerably more thant Albion ONE.

-DJ


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## jononotbono

Daniel, about sticking notes. In Cubase hit the "=" key. It resets MIDI. Hopefully that helps.


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## NoamL

Daniel, I’m in the middle of a long trip - will type a reply tonight - but wanted you to know I truly appreciate how fair & honest you were in giving your genuine thoughts about this library.


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## Ron Kords

Daniel James said:


> Yeah...If you bought David Beckhams boots but actually got a pair of slippers you would be disappointed wouldn't you. "But they are so soft" yeah but I can't play football in them can I.
> 
> -DJ


Your boot/slipper analogy is clearly ridiculous! 

Big fan of yours Dan but the walk through felt a little bit 'hatchety'.

Im assuming there's Interstellar / Dunkirk magic in this library but didn't get to see any of that (I only watched a few hours though). I guess the SF site is the place for that.

I'll get my coat....


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## SDCP

Quite agree with you Daniel. Articulation inconsistencies, volume issues, and I do not like the sound of the long violins - harsh sounding to me. That said, I like Spitfire libraries, and this library will be good for layering. Not a good overall library for me, but a few nice specialized sounds.


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## Daniel James

Ron Kords said:


> Your boot/slipper analogy is clearly ridiculous!
> 
> Big fan of yours Dan but the walk through felt a little bit 'hatchety'.
> 
> Im assuming there's Interstellar / Dunkirk magic in this library but didn't get to see any of that (I only watched a few hours though). I guess the SF site is the place for that.
> 
> I'll get my coat....



Its no worries mate, its just your level of bias for somethings over another I imagine. In this case you value Spitfire over my work which is fine.....its like when someone finds a comedian hilarious until they joke about something that you love then they are an asshole. No need to leave. 

I think my analogy was ok tho. Beckham boot being for scoring goals, slippers for comfort. HZ Strings I expected to let me score the big goals but instead is more relaxed and laid back. Perfect if thats what I wanted, but I wanted to try shots from the halfway line.

-DJ


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## SyMTiK

I respect your opinion on it, and agree with a lot of your complaints, but disagreed on some other aspects. I wouldn't totally say that this library doesn't do big loud and bombastic. Try layering the Bartok Pizz with the shorts, and load in all sections. The Bartok Pizz can sound like firecrackers. I do agree on being a bit dissapointed in the shorts as far as tightness goes, I feel they could be much tighter. Albion ONE has some excellent sounding shorts, so I know spitfire is capable of tightening up the shorts in HZ Strings. However, to be fair, getting that many players to all hit exactly at the same time could get a bit hard I imagine. Using close mics and tightness all the way up helps a bit, but 16th notes past 135/140 bpm gets a bit too muddy. Layering with a more defined library though helps to add some clarity, but I feel that the library should have been able to be defined from the start. The longs can go plenty loud too, again layering in all sections creates quite a wall of sound. 

I definitely agree with your points on the UI, lots of wasted space. I personally think the layout is decently straight forward, but it could have been executed much better and the size of the UI could have been utilized better like you said. I too agree the knob is a huge waste of space (though it is pretty). I wish it had a greater function rather than just some effects that didnt make it to the main page. if the knob wasnt there maybe all of those effects could have had their own smaller knobs that were right there in front. I am impressed with the performance of the new engine though, seems to be working well. 

Also, agree with you on the inconsistency between sections. Bit odd that they wouldn't go ahead and record the same articulations for ALL sections. Granted it is possible to use the LR swap button and boom the right hand articulations become left hand and vice versa but again, I don't quite understand why it's like that. 

Overall though I am happy with how it sounds and for most of the issues I have been able to find workarounds, and I have faith that Spitfire will fix some of the issues that have been reported so far. 

Do you still plan on doing a youtube demo and breakdown like you usually do?


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## SoNowWhat?

Thank you as always @Daniel James for taking the time to do this. I’m not sure I’m picking up HZ Strings any time soon (not because I don’t want to btw) but your videos are always insightful, and extremely useful (to me).


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## VinRice

Daniel James said:


> Not at all. As I mentioned in the video. Its form over function. Looks nice.... but has lots of dead wasted space. I have to click through way to many things to get to functions I want. Also it makes trying to get a mic balance a pain when you might be layering one from page 1 of mics to page 5, would help to just have them layed out. Or at least more to a page. Same with the articulations.....and that big knob. There is no need for the big knob, just put the 4 knobs in its place.
> 
> You could easily get all of the important functions in the top half no problem and have the bottom be just mic positions. Might not look as pretty but would be much more streamlined to use.
> 
> Lemme throw a dirty photoshop together.
> 
> -DJ



I wasn't arguing with you Daniel - I agree with you completely. I think the interface is a criminal waste of space. I was arguing with the idiot comment.


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## Ron Kords

Daniel James said:


> Its no worries mate, its just your level of bias for somethings over another I imagine. In this case you value Spitfire over my work which is fine.....its like when someone finds a comedian hilarious until they joke about something that you love then they are an asshole. No need to leave.
> 
> I think my analogy was ok tho. Beckham boot being for scoring goals, slippers for comfort. HZ Strings I expected to let me score the big goals but instead is more relaxed and laid back. Perfect if thats what I wanted, but I wanted to try shots from the halfway line.
> 
> -DJ


I was joking about the analogy and I don't now think you're an asshole 

Maybe this library isn't going to be the best for doing Zimmer bombast but I'm hopeful for the lush side of things...

Keep the vids coming Dan!!


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## VinRice

The sound is amazing, let there be no doubting that. Beautiful and inspiring, but the the volume disparity between standard and 'special' articulations is ridiculous. I completely understand the rationale for it - it reflects precisely what you would hear in the room and trying to balance 20 odd mics at all different levels would be a nightmare I am sure. 

However we are not in the 'reality business' and this is not a library for symphonic concert works (the way that OT Berlin aspires to be) - it's for Film/TV/Game and media music needs mixing, and mixing needs some level. If you are the type that has every articulation in a separate channel then no problem, gain-stage away - but that's not the way the world is moving. Articulation maps have changed my world and I ain't going back. There is however a perfectly good and easy solution - make the master volume follow EACH ARTICULATION when Global is off - and the Reverb send as well while we are at it. The Reverb is fantastic by the way.


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## quantum7

Garry said:


> ’Whether people here agree or disagree with Daniel’s summary, I hope they will respect the fact that we need people like him to give honest opinions.



Amen! I can’t even imagine how much money I would’ve saved over the years if everyone who did reviews gave an honest review without worrying about getting bashed for it. Thank you Daniel for being honest on what you think.


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## MillsMixx

I like your walkthrough Daniel. Overall though a very great "sounding" library even at the low levels. The sound of the samples with that many players are impressive and unique. The artifacts shine in Christian's walkthrough. When you pulled up Ark 3 and did a comparison of the shorts I could see the difference on the bombastic level of this library however. 

Curious do you think this would have been better if it had been done in Kontakt?


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## tmhuud

Thank you so MUCH for this review. I feel it is honest and from the heart. No fluff. Your criticism should be taken as CONSTRUCTIVE.


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## Grizzlymv

It doesn't matter that we agree or not with his review I think. What I value is his honest opinion. But that's what it is. HIS opinion. Then it's up to me, and each of us to do our own opinion based on the material we have in our hands, which include the feedback from DJ, Spitfire's own (biased) videos and other reviews. Personally I think he raised some really valid points. I've seen so many issues that it made me glad I did not spent 800$ on what look like an unfinished product, which is really not what I would expect from Spitfire which always delivered premium product with very few issues upon release. This time, it is different. I didn't need DJ's opinion to realize that. In a sense, it was somewhat to be expected with a brand new untested engine. But then you shouldn't ask premium price for it. Maybe try with a smaller library where people would be more willing to help (like the Lab for instance) than a premium product like this. Even the intro price is quite high for the quality of the finished product based on what I've seen in that overview. So many issues that should have been trapped by their QA before the release. If you really want to charge big buck for it, then at least, make sure people are aware of what they are getting into. That's something I like a lot from Performance Samples and Virharmonic for instance, you know what works and what doesn't and what the lib is for and what it isn't for, so you know what you are about to get when you give them your money. I wish more devs would have that level of transparency.


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## JohnG

I don't think it's an unfinished product. I think it will get some polishing as they often do.

I like it and am using it in a cue right now. To each his own; DJ and I have never seen eye to eye on what constitutes a review.


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## Daniel James

JohnG said:


> I don't think it's an unfinished product. I think it will get some polishing as they often do.
> 
> I like it and am using it in a cue right now. To each his own; DJ and I have never seen eye to eye on what constitutes a review.



Nor did I review it. I opened it up and gave first impressions. Thats why I called it a first look.

Did you watch the video? A big portion talks about the quality of sounds being good (a few things not quite as good) but having issues with expectations and reality. I never said you couldn't use it on a cue or enjoy whats there.

-DJ


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## JohnG

You had a preconceived idea of what it should be and, because in your view it didn't fit that, you criticized it. I don't think that's a useful review or a first look or whatever you want to call it, unless it's titled "DJ's Idea of What This Library Should Have Been."

I find your approach rushed and over-hasty, and therefore unreliable, not to mention that I don't know what speakers you listen to, based on some of the comments you make. 

And you always want the last word, so I'm sure you will reply.


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## axb312

Daniel, Thank you for the honest review. It's strange that Spitfire can release unfinished/ buggy products time and time again and still have people salivating over them. The articulations and flexibility (or lack thereof) also seem disappointing. 

I for one and happy with the decision to hold back on buying this.


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## Daniel James

JohnG said:


> You had a preconceived idea of what it should be and, because in your view it didn't fit that, you criticized it. I don't think that's a useful review or a first look or whatever you want to call it, unless it's titled "DJ's Idea of What This Library Should Have Been."
> 
> I find your approach rushed and over-hasty, and therefore unreliable, not to mention that I don't know what speakers you listen to, based on some of the comments you make.
> 
> And you always want the last word, so I'm sure you will reply.



Yeah having a dig at someone then saying that if they try to defend themselves they 'just want the last word'. So yes, I will respond to your dig with a response...on a messageboard....where people have conversations not just make statements then retire.

So to your point yes, I had a notion of what the product was, given the brand name attached and the push on it. Then I got the product and it didn't match the obvious brand. See my example of buying a bugatti car, whos brand is synonymous with speed....but they decide on the new car when promoting it to focusing on how pretty the trimmings are and how its 'A BUGATTI' but they wanted the new car to be slow. So people buying it expecting a BUGATTI will surely mention in their 'reviews' of the car that it doesn't 'feel' like a bugatti because its not fast. Thats why you put brands on things, so that people have an expectation of what they are going to get based on the legacy or 'CV' of the brand. So yes when I opened the library I bought for the Hans Zimmer sound, based off his incredible legacy, imagine my disappointment when I got just another Spitfire string library that in design is almost the opposite of what I would attach to brand Zimmer. I think its a valid thing to shape the perspective of a critique. If you watched my conversations after you will see the chat asked me what I would think if it was just a Spitfire Strings lib with no Hans Zimmer brand and I explained about the bugs, the interface, the new engine quirks etc.....but thats the thing I, and I imagine a few others might not have made the leap for the product had it not been for the brand Zimmer, so to have it not feel Zimmer was a big influence on the mood of my feeling towards it....which I think will resonate with a few other people who may be expecting what I expect with something labelled Hans Zimmer Strings. Again I think Hans gave them what they needed to do it, they just instead did another Spitfire lib. Which you are at liberty to like.

Or more bluntly, if I offered you a stick of gum and said it let you see in the dark...but then night rolls around and you are blind you would be pissed. You would review that as bad night seeing gum. But if you just wanted a normal stick of gum and I gave you the same gum....you would review it better, because its what you expect.

Worth mentioning I never edit away, so if I say something its usually because I am responding to something that I and everyone watching live just witnessed. If I was lying it would be glaring.

Also if you dislike what I say, why do you watch? You only ever comment to disagree with me so I already get you don't value my opinion, which is fine. But don't watch something you know you wont like, then complain about not liking it. Thats just dense.

But you always want the last word. so I'm sure you will reply. I'm just messing, there is a lot to unpack there, I am good with you responding, thats what debates and conversations are about...you like the thing, I don't like the thing, we explain why and see if we can find common ground.

-DJ


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## Geoff Grace

I'm very unlikely to watch a five-and-a-half hour video, so I won't comment on that; but I will share an observation about passion and aesthetics in music.

We're all passionate about music or we wouldn't be at VI-Control. Most of us also have certain styles or genres that we gravitate toward. Nonetheless, very few of us are so passionate about a specific sound that we go to the great lengths of developing libraries that help us achieve that specific aesthetic. Obviously, *Hans*, *Christian*, *Paul*, and *Daniel* all fall into that camp; and—as they are each individuals—their aesthetics all overlap and diverge at different points.

As a result, I fully expect *Daniel* to share what he likes and dislikes about any library. That's his passion. He's speaking his truth, and I completely understand why he does it whether I agree or not. Passion carries us solidly in one direction, and that inevitably sails us away from the courses charted by others.

Best,

Geoff


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## MillsMixx

another perspective of this library I found online.


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## The Darris

The only argument I will make against you DJ is that you are some how failing to realize that HZ uses this library and used a lot of it for Dunkirk. This is his sound. What's loud and bombastic are his Brass and Synths and Percussion. Sure, you can point to some iconic string moments from his past but his style has evolved past what I would consider the "Zimmer Sound" you are talking about. I own all of the Spitfire string libraries and can definitively say, this one stands apart from them. 

I didn't have 5 hours to watch everything you said but what I did see was frustration which you are admitting to. That's fine but some of your frustration was rooted in some ignorance, re; volume of articulations. This library is orchestrationally balanced which, not to over explain something you may already know, is when you get how each articulations naturally sounds in dynamic comparison to others. (ie; Flautandos played at piano will sound more quiet than a normale arco piano) They went to an extreme on some of these which seems to be what you are upset by but saying that's crap or whatever. I never got, from their promotional material, that they were going for balls to the wall loud and epic. That's been done by others already. They were going for HZ's sound and approach which is what they got. I have worked with some of HZ's private stuff that he recorded in Air years ago (probably used on Gladiator and Pirates). There are some similarities with this library but with this one, their is far more control and range. 

I think your frustrations for this library are rooted in some false ideas of what Zimmer's Sound really is. I think you are wanting this to be what creates "DJ's Sound" and that's okay but not every library in the world fits our needs. But, your implications, whether blatant or not, that Spitfire promoted this as this big epic over the top loud balls to the wall Zimmer big sound library seems off putting to me. Their live show, which I watched in full, demonstrated all the reserved and quiet patches. The demos demonstrated this too. The product page doesn't imply this either. There is hyperbole for sure but that's not the issue here. The issue is that you have some idea of what you think it should sound like and given what was available to you before you bought it that went against this idea, you still bought it. Sounds to me like you just are upset that you didn't get what you wanted and now it's Spitfire's fault. I understand that I could be way off with that but reading your responses and how you approached certain issues in your stream speak the opposite. 

Did you send them a support request for the issues you encountered yet?


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## quantum7

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but after watching and carefully listening to ALL 5 hours + of DJ's "First Look" video, I have to agree with most of his concerns and frustrations. As someone who owns the product, he is entitled to his opinions. DJ does say numerous times though that the library sounds great, which it does to me also, but again, I have to concur that there are indeed some valid concerns. I also respect that it pains him, as he has great respect Mr. Z, Christian, and Paul....and now feels that Mr. Z along with Spitfire will "hate him" for stating his honest feelings on HZ Strings. I am 49 years old and served in the US Army in the first Gulf War, and I am ashamed to say that I don't think that I would be as brave as DJ was (in his shoes, where he is at in his career) to so be brutishly honest on what he honestly felt...which now is sure to cause him some stress in the coming days I'm sure. I absolutely love Spitfire....as Tundra seemed to be created just for me, but I am grateful to DJ for stating what he honestly feels.


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## jtnyc

Marketing and releasing new libraries seems to be more of a priority than releasing products that are ready for release or fixing issues with previously released libraries. Albion V was released a year and a half ago and there are still missing mic positions and tuning issues. They must have released 15-20 libraries in that time. It took over a year to fix the velocity curves in Albion One, yet library after library was released in that time, and I won't even go into the early versions of Albion 1 (legacy). They eventually did improve A1, yet it still could use some love... haha (sweet as it is).

I own and like quite a few Spitfire Libraries. Some very beautiful sounding instruments. I only wish their quality control was as good as their passion and marketing. Sloppy programming, bugs, and long waits for fixes or no fixes at all makes the constant flood of new releases start to feel like like a bit of a piss take. I've become very cautious regarding new SF purchases.

As to HZS, I haven't heard anything that's really blown me away. It sounds ok, but nothing I can't get really close to with what I already own. Also some of the louder bigger stuff didn't sound particularly warm to me. The new UI looks like a bit of a labyrinth. I'm curious what people will be saying about it a few months down the line.


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## Jack Weaver

Hey Daniel,

Gonna do a review of that MatrixBrute you have sitting behind you?

.


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## ism

Hi Daniel,

I'm still trying to get my head around this library. And while admittedly I'm not the conniseur of bombast that you are, I'm puzzled by this reaction. To the point that I think might be worth trying to articulate my thoughs as there's quite a lot that's musically interesting going on here.

Here are a few of the themes of my puzzlement:

1. Loud vs big :

Listening to the demos, starting even with the trailer music, what I'm hearing is enormous, regardless of whether its loud or quiet. The relation of this library with Tundra is very interesting, but you could never get the enormity of this sound with Tundra.

When you swap in HZS for Jaeger, I hear a much bigger, and much more defined sound. But it isn't necessarly more agressive than Jaeger, but definately "bigger" - assuming we have a common understanding of what the metaphor of "bigger" actually means. Which now that I think of it, it's far from obvious.

My point here is that I'm not sure I agree that "loud" vs "quiet" is the best way to think of what this library is doing. My sense of the artistic vision of the library is that it always sounds enormous, defined, whether played loud of soft. 



2. Engineering the pallete:

I'm not exeperienced in engineering this kind of music, but this "bigness" and the definedness suggests that the end result is going to be very sensitive to reverb and mic choices. 

My main point of reference here is Light and Sound chamber strings. They're recorded dry, and have 7 mic positions. Initially I was sceptically about whether this was really necesary. But was very pleasantly surprised that the definedness of the samples combined with the 7 mics really allow you to craft the sound and stereo image in quite wonderful ways - expanding the pallete quite significanltly.

So given the sheer definedness of HZS, combined with all the mic position, I wonder if it might yet be possible to craft a more agressive sound via mics/reverb/stereo imaging?

And I was kind of feeling like this might be a consideration in dropping HZS into you Jaeger composition - at least I didn't feel HZS was at its best when you used the same reverb. 

Conversely, might a "bigger" but even less agressive sound be crafted in the mix?

3. How many colours of bombastic are there?

I'm also curious as to what that "Hans Zimmer sound" that you're looking that you're not getting elsewhere? 

In particular in your comparison with Albion 1 (~5:18:00) I certainly take your point that the Albion 8ve batch, out of the box is more agressive than HZS legato. But in the course of trying a few other things you quickly come up with a number of other very interesting sounds, all which are "bigger", and some of theme - at the cost of much more memory - do eventually become much more agressive. 

I guess what's interesting to me in this demo is that even in that short comparison there's an intiguing range of colours - and I've seen comments to suggest that working with the mics expands the pallete here in way that I assume might be something like my experience with L&S.

Again, I don't know much about the really bombastic side of things - but I wonder if there might be something similar to recent debates on Tundra - for instance, I love all the distnct colours you get in the tundra pallete - but some people say that all the sul tasto more or less sound the same. Fair the think that of course, but I find it puzzling.

Is there a gold standard in bombastic? Or is there space in this kind of music to work with subtle textures of bombast? To be honest all those agressive ostinatos sound much the same to be whether they're Albion 1, CSS or Jaeger. 

(Apologies if this sound like I'm being facetious - I'm not, I think this is a musically interesting question, and one of the things that makes HZS so intersting).


4. Just what is the "Hans Zimmer Sound" anyway.

Another interesting thing is this review in particular and this library (as well as Blue Planet 2 and Orchsestral Swarm) in general, is how its got me thinking further on what exacly is the HZ sound.

I agree that its not "soft" in the sense of something like Tundra. But it is "big" - in the sense of the metaphor that I mentioned above.

Dunkirk is the score that really brought this into focus for me. Emblematicaly, the "Variation 15" track -
it's a huge sound, yet with a lyrical quality, comeing in the midst of a score full of all manor of agressive, bombasitic thumping , fwacking and clanging of an epic battle. And yet in this moment, it telescopes all this enormity into the emotional experience of that single pilot. (The cavet is perhaps that I grew up with stories of my grandfather flying in the RAF at Dunkirk and the Battle of Brittan, so I was always going to be sucker for the epic Elgarian romanticism of that final scene)

And then if I think back to HZ scores that have really made an impression - yes there's lots of bombast which serves the action very well. But its always combined with - I don't quite know how to describe it - maybe a lyrical quality? Something that mediates between the bombastic ostinatos of rising action and the individual experience of a person in the story. Think of the lyricism in "The thin Red Line". Even in inherntly bombastic films like the pirate movies. I think I would even argue this for the Batman movies (though I've only seen one). These moments of lyricism where the ambient gigantic thonking epic events maintain their enormity even as the focus shifts this a more intimate view of a character.

Moreover, I'd argue that its partly because these lyrical moments working as well as they do (without loosing the enormity of the moment) that the big thonking ostinatos work as well as they do (and vice versa).

Admittedly, this is a pretty feeble attempt to articulate whatever it is that the "Hans Zimmer Sound" is, which is surely a much bigger thing than what I'm able to articulate. And I've really enjoyed the Spitfire marketing in its own right for its reflections on what exactly it is.

I think my point here is just that I disagree quite strenuously with your assertion that everyone obviously has the same concept of the "Hans Zimmer Sound". And I think a discussion that brought this out further might be very musically interesting.




5. Bug buttons - why?

Just to make the point that I do agree with you in places.

Of couse, there is a point in design theory to keeping things uncluttered, and that use of negative space isn't the same as wasted space. But I'm not convinced it makes sense for the kind of high end users that would buy this library. Especially your point about the mics. Especially if the mic positions are as important as it seems they might be.


And in general your review makes me want this library more - so thanks.


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## BassoonCake

Good first look, Daniel. After watching other videos as well (including Spitfire's), I'd say yours was honest and balanced. You pointed out the good, not just the bad. As you said, for this sort of money (~$740), we should expect something more complete, polished, and fulfilling of the marketing hype. There _are_ a few sweet spots in the library as you and others have pointed out, and at around half the price ( =~the full price of CSS) it could be worth it.


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## JT

Daniel, another thank you for giving us your honest first impressions with HZS. I initially blew off this library because like Daniel, I expected a huge Zimmeresque sound. I didn't bother watching Spitfire's walk-thru. That was my mistake. After watching parts of Daniel's review, it intrigued me. The things that Daniel wasn't crazy about, were exactly the type of things I could use. I just watched Paul's walk-thru and I'm sold. I'm getting this puppy. 

So Daniel, thank you, your honest opinion opened my eyes to something I had dismissed. I feel so lucky to be writing music now, there are so many great choices available to all of us.

JT


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## chillbot

ism said:


> Bug buttons



I fully enjoyed your post. I thought it warranted more than just a simple "like" so I just wanted to acknowledge, great post, great read. And bug buttons.


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## Saxer

There's one unspoken reason Daniel expected another library: it doesn't match his epic style of composing. So from his view I can follow all his arguments. But that might not be the case for everyone.

I'd also love to have some power patches played by the masses. But after looking at the Spitfire walkthroughs it was clear what to expect. I also could imagine they did some tests and it didn't sound as spectacular as the softer side (but that's personal speculation). I find the 'normal' articulations rather normal (means: doesn't really sound big, more like a symphonic setting with slow envelopes). But the softer parts sound really great and unusual. For me it's not really a string library but a textural sound design library made with strings.

I absolutely agree with the GUI. I'm not afraid of empty spaces, screens are big enough today. But spreading one function over several menu sites doesn't make sense at all. And the big knob is even slower to use as a small one (more mouse driving). Maybe the big knob will get useful functions in other libraries and this is the first one where it doesn't get it's full use.


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## NoamL

Some late night thoughts.

So again, I appreciate *your honesty* and not compromising your perspective. That's why you have the best brand as a sample library reviewer. You helped make up my mind that I'm not going to buy it. However, I disagree with a few things you said.

Thanks for drawing attention to the *consistency* problems in the library, which seem severe. Not even having legatos for some sections reminds me of 2006 vintage EastWest. The legato transitions feel clipped incredibly short. And despite what SF have said, I do wonder if some articulations aren't playing back at unity and it's a "known bug on shipping" like the legatos.

I think your biggest issue is with *HZ's aesthetic & creative direction*. *This is probably where we're going to disagree the most. *I was a little surprised to hear you namecheck scores like Inception, Batman, and Pirates. HZ has decisively moved away from writing close up string ostinato motors, together with the "epic percussion" aesthetic from the same era. There was a conspicuous absence of those sounds in Interstellar and he's pursued that artistic vision further in the 4 years since.

This product either is made of, or is similar to (not quite clear?), recordings that HZ commissioned to use in Dunkirk. So, this is his sound _right now_. I get what you are saying about HZ's "brand" being Batman and Inception to you, but twenty years ago you could say his brand was super synth-driven scores like Black Hawk Down, Backdraft and Crimson Tide. He reinvents himself. I don't think there was ambiguity about which "version" of Zimmer this library represents. Right from the first demos I thought "Oh yeah this is oceanic strings-as-synth Zimmer." Now, like you I'm not too into that; you would probably have rather had Batman Strings, and I would have dug Sherlock Holmes Strings. But this is his sound now.

With regard to the marketing, I think there is a *real big problem of unrealistic expectations that SF are not-quite-dispelling. * There was a thread on here this week about someone asking if HZS could be a good first library or "core" strings library. That is a DUMB IDEA.

I would have respected SF so much more if they themselves posted on that thread _"Hell no you shouldn't buy this library as your first strings, this library is an extravagant mad science experiment full of oddball sounds you can't possibly afford to replicate in a recording session. If you want bread and butter strings that can actually stand in for an orchestra during the mockup-approval stage of scoring, look no farther than our Symphonic Strings which are recently updated, comprehensive, and also cheaper."_ But then they would risk losing sales from hobbyists who are bored/frustrated with SSS and looking to HZS to "finally make me Hans."

The very fact that this library probably represents some kind of world record for strings in film/TV scoring, shows how superfluous its scope is. Can we draw a line under the point that* all of epic film/library music *was recorded with ensembles several TIMES smaller than this ?

The biggest, lushest Hollywood scores like Williams's Harry Potter or Star Wars Prequels were recorded with 64-68 strings. This is the range aimed at by libraries like SSS (60 players), HWS (57) and LASS (62).

Meanwhile driving, epic library music like 2SFH is often recorded with _somewhat SMALLER_ ensembles. And not for budget reasons! And just look at the sounds you can get from Metropolis Ark 1 (40 players) Albion 1 (37 players), JAEGER (36) and CSS (35).

The energy of that aesthetic of string writing comes from dry, punchy, presence and reasonable sized ensembles.

Adding players beyond the symphonic standard section sizes (say that 5 times fast!) DOES NOT add significant dynamic range or "beef," as your various comparisons accurately showed.

In addition, the Pirates scores were not done at AIR, but at Sony if my research is correct. Spitfire has developed this "cult of AIR" but not every kind of musical material is appropriate for it. It's a church!

I am going to go out on a limb that HZ himself can saw off if he wants, but I will make a semi-informed guess that the reason he wants such a large string ensemble for his projects, might be the same reason he used the 12-drumset circle on Man Of Steel. Did he really need the 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th drumsets for fear that the score would lack impact without them?! No, what a dozen drums allows him to do is fill the entire circle of speakers in the theater. If you want an ocean of string sound, but you want it to sound lush from every point, you might commission 340 string players... if you were sufficiently crazy... 

it does sound amazingly better than Spitfire's own String EVOs. The sound truly is an ocean. But are amazingly lush, wide-screen-filling string sustains worth $800? Not to my work. Everyone can decide for themselves of course.

I fully understand why you didn't like this, and similarly why you liked JAEGER. I mean Jaeger looks like it was custom-designed to help you break the music industry in half!  You have already written some killer tracks with MS's vocals.


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## Kony

Saxer said:


> There's one unspoken reason Daniel expected another library: it doesn't match his epic style of composing. So from his view I can follow all his arguments. But that might not be the case for everyone.


Some points have been made that this library focuses on the softer ppp side of HZ string usage - but is that accurately reflected in the product's name? It's called HZ Strings, not HZ soft strings....


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## Emmanuel Rousseau

Kony said:


> Some points have been made that this library focuses on the softer ppp side of HZ string usage - but is that accurately reflected in the product's name? It's called HZ Strings, not HZ soft strings....




Yes, maybe it should have been named "HZStringsButBewareNotTheKindOfStringsYouWouldExpectIfYouWantAnotherFFFLibrary".

Come on, there were demos, walkthroughs, articulation lists... I think this is exactly the kind of Strings that reflect HZ's current approach.


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## Kony

whitewasteland said:


> I think this is exactly the kind of Strings that reflect HZ's current approach


I think that's the point - HZ has a wide range but this library doesn't


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## mouse

To be a fly on the wall in spitfire hq this morning lol 

Personally I like that this isn't a bombastic library from what Daniel has shown. It seems other libs like Jaeger and Ark 3 already do that?


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## NoamL

Kony said:


> I think that's the point - HZ has a wide range but this library doesn't



That's fair, but even a really good library like CSS struggles to encompass _everything_ that strings can do in classical repertoire.


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## mac

Whether you agree with Daniel regarding the expected sound (the UI issues and bugs are unarguable imo), the video is entertaining as hell 

Thanks for putting yourself through that @Daniel James, you look completely drained by the end!


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## Kony

NoamL said:


> That's fair, but even a really good library like CSS struggles to encompass _everything_ that strings can do in classical repertoire.


Agree with you


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## ism

Kony said:


> I think that's the point - HZ has a wide range but this library doesn't



A good point. A truely comprehensive HZ library would include, for instance, Polynesian choirs, Somali percussion, and enough synths to sink a moderate sized ship. Also Baaba Maal vocals which would be awesome.


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## Kony

ism said:


> A truely comprehensive HZ library would


...cost $800 - a niche one not so much


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## Puzzlefactory

Maybe further down the line we’ll see “HZ strings Pro”, just like with the percussion.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Hej Daniel, thank you for your impressions and honestly: It is great to see that honesty escpecially knowing that you will displease some HZ fans here. That shows strenghts and I appreciate that a lot, man.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

And don´t worry about your career - freethinkers with personality are always more welcome to potential clients than buttnose crawling puppydogs.


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## fiestared

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> And don´t worry about your career - freethinkers with personality are always welcome more to potential clients than puppydogs.


+1


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## procreative

Things that bug me about GUIs, both Jaeger and HZS have this, why have all that screen estate and then make the articulations have to be scrolled to view them? A waste of space and means you never see the overall picture.

Things flawed in this release are what I suspected.

The sampler as expected has bugs, probably not as bad as a certain other player had on launch.

I still think one of the real benefits of a large section playing is missing and probably impossible to sample eg lively rhythmic playing with slight timing imperfections. OT attempted this with their sloppy blurry staccatos (but with a much asmaller section).

What you have ended up with is like a guitarist tracking a part out, playing it super tight and in tune. The more times you track it the thinner it gets instead of what you would expect.


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## davidgary73

So we can conclude that HZ Strings is good at doing atmospheric (immersive) sounds like Dunkirk etc but can’t do stuff action or driven strings type of styles?


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## Puzzlefactory

davidgary73 said:


> So we can conclude that HZ Strings is good at doing atmospheric (immersive) sounds like Dunkirk etc but can’t do stuff action or driven strings type of styles?



I dunno, the shorts sounded pretty good. If that isn’t actiony, I don’t know what is...


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## davidgary73

Puzzlefactory said:


> I dunno, the shorts sounded pretty good. If that isn’t actiony, I don’t know what is...



From the video, the shorts on the violins are good (but still slightly sloppy) but the cello and basses are not that good. Metropolis Ark 1 shorts for example are much more actiony


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## Lassi Tani

Thank you Daniel, I really appreciate your honest opinion about the library. I especially liked the comparisons, and man those octaves in Albion 1 sound good! When they announced the library, I somehow got the impression that it's especially amazing for epic scores, and can do loud, but I guess the marketing directed me to that impression more than the demos.

I'm quite surprised of the inconsistencies in the articulations, and I agree with Daniel, that if one section would have tremolo, I assume I would find it from other sections too.

To me action writing needs tightness in the shorts and with the number of players being this high, it's quite hard to have very tight shorts, which became clear from the video, when Daniel played 16th notes. Yes he could adjust the tightness, but still if you compare to e.g. Metropolis Ark 1, which is just made to shine in fast, action cues, in my opinion Hans Zimmer Strings isn't just good enough in that kind of writing. Also Spitfire's demos show this, that the library really excels in slow and quiet passages, but not in fast, loud and bombastic ones.

Of course for textures and more slow writing the articulations are wonderful, but I was expecting a library with more basic articulations (legato, tremolo, repetitions, etc) for all the sections + unusual articulations.

I was almost buying this, because Spitfire does marketing well, but I'm glad I waited for the reviews.


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## Dr Belasco

What I get from Daniel's vid is if I ever get asked to do a a certain type of sound then this library could be the one to go for. It looks like you would need to stick Gain across nearly all the channel strips.


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## Grizzlymv

JohnG said:


> I don't think it's an unfinished product. I think it will get some polishing as they often do.
> 
> .



Well, it's your right to see it that way. But when I have to pay that much money, the least I'm expecting is a polished and premium products . Especially when it come from an established company such as Spitfire which usually deliver quality product out of tbe box. With all the issues I've seen in that video, it still require a lot of polish. In comparison, I bought hexeract recently from Auddict. Different product, but It also needed a lot of polish upon release . But I only had to pay 100$ for it, half the final price. So it was easier to accept the "unfinished" state of the product. And even tbere, the issues they had wasn't affecting the playing of the instruments while here, it seems to be the case from what I hear when DJ is playing on his keyboard. It's a little more difficult to accept from my point of view. And it's surprising as it is really not the usual Spitfire quality we are used to get. it's like if they rushed the release for whatever reason... I may revisit the product once they fix their issues, and then the big price asked might be more justified.


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## redlester

Daniel James said:


> Instead we got 80% Albion V style patches done with more players.....
> 
> .....But when you brand something that sounds like Albion V as 'Hans Zimmer Strings' its just not what you expect



This is not helping at all for someone who passed on the special offer for Albion V last week!


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## phil_wc

I'd be good if they have HZS lite. I just want only essential articulation and mic position. The low end sound of them is so good. Haha


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## novaburst

Garry said:


> I’m genuinely pleased for those that bought HZS and love it



In the end this is what truly matters despite what others say or think, if you don't have a use for it get something else,

Many have different playing styles and ability's, so what some one else thinks of a product simply does not matter,

But I have come to understand even before reviews people start hating on products because of the type of music it represents, or they cant wait to tear it apart because that developer has gone its own way, and they only wait for some one to diss or slam that product in any form or way to say yes, yes im with you man, you got it right man, oh cool man, simply because you had no intention of getting the product in the first place,


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## SyMTiK

novaburst said:


> In the end this is what truly matters despite what others say or think, if you don't have a use for it get something else,
> 
> Many have different playing styles and ability's, so what some one else thinks of a product simply does not matter,
> 
> But I have come to understand even before reviews people start hating on products because of the type of music it represents, or they cant wait to tear it apart because that developer has gone its own way, and they only wait for some one to diss or slam that product in any form or way to say yes, yes im with you man, you got it right man, oh cool man, simply because you had no intention of getting the product in the first place,



I personally have really loved HZ Strings so far, (despite some bugs) and I personally think it represents his style and artistic vision. When I think of Hans Zimmer I personally think more about his use of large unconventional ensembles and instruments and trying to do things that haven’t been done before, and I think that HZ Strings follows that vision. When gain staged properly the quiet articulations do sound huge, not in the sense that they are “loud” but you can tell and feel that the sound is coming from something massive, its a very immersive sound. I think that the sound definitely sounds “Zimmer” to me compared to Interstellar, Dunkirk, and even some of Inception. 

I think HZ Strings is more about the idea of doing something new and different, which has always been his approach to composing. HZ Strings is big in a very different way than other livraries do big and respect that and I find the sound inspiring personally.

But then again, this is my personal opinion. I know for some HZ Strings was a let down and for some it doesn’t fit with their style, and I respect that!


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## procreative

Daniel James said:


> This is function over form, not as pretty but all the controls are instantly accessible. I would much rather have the option to work fast than to have all that wasted space. Its as if the designers have never seen an analog synth before....we can handle lots of parameters on one page.



Now thats a much better UI, maybe if the product had a simple and complex version like their other UIs this could have been achieved. You would have thought the UI experts they employed might have figured this out.

I wish a lot of the GUIs were laid out like this, maybe with a Basic and Expert view option.


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## Celestial Aeon

Daniel James said:


> This is function over form, not as pretty but all the controls are instantly accessible. I would much rather have the option to work fast than to have all that wasted space. Its as if the designers have never seen an analog synth before....we can handle lots of parameters on one page.



Please Spitfire, make an optional UI toggle that would allow us to see this <3 <3 <3


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## JohnG

Daniel James said:


> I opened the library I bought for the Hans Zimmer sound, based off his incredible legacy, imagine my disappointment when I got just another Spitfire string library that in design is almost the opposite of what I would attach to brand Zimmer.



Exactly, Daniel. You had an idea of what you expected and it isn't exactly what you think you hear in HZ's music. By contrast, actually, I think it is a lot of what I hear. 

You don't get "big" just by having each element hyped. Yes the sounds have to have a certain presence (which the 60 cellos unquestionably do), but achieving the effect of "enormous forces" has a lot more to do with the overall scale of the writing and the arrangement, and for that, I have to say this library can sound enormous. I'm working on a battle / action cue right now and am substituting (mostly -- I don't have time to redo it all) this library for what I'd been using. It's a climactic, emotional scene and these strings help it sound very expansive and 'uge. 

With regard to "just like other Spitfire libraries," I disagree. At least using the large sections, it doesn't sound like the other Spitfire libraries, especially solo lines. I have Tundra and I like it, but this is another scale altogether.

For years, I've hoped for a sampled string library that can carry a solo line on its own; there are many good ones out there but this one adds a flavour that is very different to my ears from what I already have. I bought it based on those demos and, once they fiddle a bit further with the legato and some other matters, I think it's going to be a mainstay for certain kinds of projects.

So we just disagree, though naturally we each have a point of view and, when it comes to aesthetics, I suppose people think everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Have a good one,

John


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

Skimming through now, and the only thing that annoyed me so far was Daniel's pronounciation of 'legno' (it's Italian so should sound more like 'lenyo'). 

From the promo stuff I did get the impression that this library was focused on a huge number of players, but with generally quieter techniques as the focus, so I can understand some confusion if you were expecting a _Pirates_ toolkit...


----------



## John Busby

ism said:


> So given the sheer definedness of HZS, combined with all the mic position, I wonder if it might yet be possible to craft a more agressive sound via mics/reverb/stereo imaging?


i agree with this... only extra mics cannot produce the missing articulations that should absolutely be in this library


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## novaburst

SyMTiK said:


> I think HZ Strings is more about the idea of doing something new and different,


This + 1

Also the developers have entered a new world with there new player, just like a plane taking off there will be turbulence, hence a few things to get right and bugs, lets give them some air at least to breath,

Let them at least get out of turbulence.


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## mac

novaburst said:


> This + 1
> 
> Also the developers have entered a new world with there new player, just like a plane taking off there will be turbulence, hence a few things to get right and bugs, lets give them some air at least to breath,
> 
> Let them at least get out of turbulence.



They should have run a few test flights before selling first class tickets


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## Mike Fox

I know that HZ has a wide dynamic range, but I agree with Daniel the sound that everyone knows HZ for is the bombastic one. HZ Strings _should_ have delivered that sound AND all the uniqueness of what the library actually is, because that would have offered people a wider, and truer representation of Zimmer's tonal palette. If a developer released a Danny Elfman toolkit library, but all It offered was the same orchestra used for Big Eyes, I would be incredibly disappointed. Btw, the whole "this library can sound big if you layer it" argument is doesn't sit right with me, because you shouldn't have to do any layering with a library like this to achieve a large sound. Ever play Trailer Strings? No layering required, and it sounds massive.


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## MisterLarbert

Interesting to compare the reception of HZ Strings to the Bernard Herrmann lib, which seemed to land very much where people expected from the name, versus this more mixed reaction. Not being super familiar with the depth of either composer's catalog myself, maybe someone else could comment on why that might be?


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## tehreal

Mike Fox said:


> I know that HZ has a wide dynamic range, but I agree with Daniel the sound that everyone knows HZ for is the bombastic one. HZ Strings _should_ have delivered that sound AND all the uniqueness of what the library actually is, because that would have offered people a wider, and truer representation of Zimmer's tonal palette. If a developer released a Danny Elfman toolkit library, but all It offered was the same orchestra used for Big Eyes, I would be incredibly disappointed. Btw, the whole "this library can sound big if you layer it" argument is doesn't sit right with me, because you shouldn't have to do any layering with a library like this to achieve a large sound. Ever play Trailer Strings? No layering required, and it sounds massive.



Guys, wasn't it clear from the demos what this library was offering?


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## Mike Fox

tehreal said:


> Guys, wasn't it clear from the demos what this library was offering?


I actually came to the same conclusion Daniel did after I listened to the demos, which is why I didn't buy it. That doesn't make Daniel's point any less valid, because what he's saying about the library still rings true. It is what it is.


----------



## Raphioli

Greatly appreciate your video.
Thank you!


----------



## Dr Belasco

I thought this was supposed to be less bombastic and more sort of Dunkirk; or at least that's where I may or may not have been misled or misunderstood.


----------



## Raphioli

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hej Daniel, thank you for your impressions and honestly: It is great to see that honesty escpecially knowing that you will displease some HZ fans here. That shows strenghts and I appreciate that a lot, man.



Strongly agree.
Honesty (no sugarcoating etc) in this review means, I can trust/rely on Daniel James other reviews. (this does *not* mean I didn't rely on his past reviews of course. This just made him even more reliable to me =) )


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## ctsai89

Thumbs up for honesty! Very much needed in this forum instead of the same old usual "oh it's sooooo lovely~~ highly recommended 100%"


----------



## TrondB

Daniel James said:


> when you brand something with Hans Zimmer you EXPECT a certain direction



The only thing I expect with Zimmer is the unexpected. This library, according to you, is just that.
And maybe it's me and my flailing eyesight but I haven´t seen anything in the marketing that suggests that by buying this library you will be able to replicate the well known sound of Hans Zimmer.

But then again, what do I know.


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## berto

For what is worth I agree with Daniel and his "First Look".
Not that i could afford the library anyway. But when I first saw the library "name" I just assumed it would provide all the Batman/Pirates strings sounds and make me the great composer that I am not  But while listening to some walkthroughs and I don't know where else, I realised it was not the case and they tried to experiment with the softer side of 300+ strings. But mine is just curiosity as I won't be buying it in any case because of the price :-(
If i had had the money and was a pro i would have jumped on it as soon as it was released, not even watching the walkthroughs and maybe I would have been disappointed as well...


----------



## ctsai89

I think my respect for spitfire dropped down to 75% as of lately. However, it would go back up to 95% if they publicly admit and are honest with the fact (or my opinion) that the whole Hans Zimmer deal was all for marketting purposes. In my opinion there's nothing wrong with doing so, and nothing wrong with admitting it. Business is business, company is a company.

And it's not like they're scamming the whole world into a world war 3 or anything. 

As a veteran user of Spitfire libraries, I have to say it's really redundant to get Hans Zimmer, however it's really cool and it's an extra choice to decide on for anyone who hasn't purchased ANY Spitfire string libraries.


----------



## Daniel James

TrondB said:


> The only thing I expect with Zimmer is the unexpected. This library, according to you, is just that.
> And maybe it's me and my flailing eyesight but I haven´t seen anything in the marketing that suggests that by buying this library you will be able to replicate the well known sound of Hans Zimmer.
> 
> But then again, what do I know.



Its all about branding. You almost have to take Hans the person out of the conversation with this. Hans Zimmer is a brand name when you attach it to something. With a brand comes expectations, thats why we as a society bother with brands at all. When someone says oh that track you wrote sounds Zimmerish more often that not it will be a big epic piece. The brand Zimmer comes with the expectation of the legacy that supports it. So I was expecting more detail and options with the shorts, more purposeful layerings (like bass cellos in octaves as they have done previously) Maybe some divici as Hans is known to do that quite often. When a client says that want you to Zimmer it up, we all know what they mean. And I was expecting a library with brand Zimmer in the title to allow me to Zimmer things up....But it does the opposite. 

Sure its Hans' actual strings so you can be literal and say the name is accurate. But nothing about what the actual players played for the sample is anymore 'Zimmmer' than any other string library. In fact some of the things they chose to record are the opposite of what I assocciate with Hans Zimmer but absolutely associate with Christian Henson or Spitfire. Like I said, they took Hans' set up and made a Spitfire library, not a Hans Zimmer library. If you go into it knowing that and you are ok with it, you may well like the library. There is lots to love, but its not a 'Hans Zimmer' library.

-DJ


----------



## Jay Panikkar

$800 worth of mental gymnastics bearing down on Daniel James as people try to justify their purchase. I love this kind of drama, and this thread is already very entertaining.

Like many others here, I was also very intrigued by the idea of HZS. One expects a massive project like HZS to be showcased in great detail but instead there was a suspicious lack of in-depth videos, so I passed on the purchase.


----------



## Consona

I think DJ's arguments make perfect sense.


----------



## ctsai89

Jay Panikkar said:


> $800 worth of mental gymnastics bearing down on Daniel James as people try to justify their purchase. I love this kind of drama, and this thread is already very entertaining.



I'm a drama queen too and I love it


----------



## Mike Fox

TrondB said:


> And maybe it's me and my flailing eyesight but I haven´t seen anything in the marketing that suggests that by buying this library you will be able to replicate the well known sound of Hans Zimmer.



"344 players"
"Thundering Basslines"
"AIR Studios"

Nah, that doesn't sound like Hans Zimmer at all.


----------



## Geoff Grace

ism said:


> A good point. A truely comprehensive HZ library would include, for instance, Polynesian choirs, Somali percussion, and enough synths to sink a moderate sized ship. Also Baaba Maal vocals which would be awesome.


I'm pretty sure that a truly comprehensive HZ library would include dozens of terabytes of samples, include the rights to u-he's _The Dark Zebra_, and take a decade or more to complete. And then, you'd have to release addenda periodically until *Hans* retired.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Daniel James

Mike Fox said:


> "344 players"
> "Thundering Basslines"
> "AIR Studios"
> 
> Nah, that doesn't sound like Hans Zimmer at all.



On paper you would think so huh. Perhaps you can understand my confusion when you take those ingredients and instead of blowing the roof you have 344 players play their instruments with the wrong side of the bow as quietly as possible.

-DJ


----------



## Daniel James

Geoff Grace said:


> I'm pretty sure that a truly comprehensive HZ library would include dozens of terabytes of samples, include the rights to u-he's _The Dark Zebra_, and take a decade or more to complete. And then, you'd have to release addenda periodically until *Hans* retired.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



Dark Zebra or ZebraHZ was a perfect example of putting the Hans Zimmer brand on something and getting what you both want and expect.

-DJ


----------



## Jazzy_Joe

I think we have to be more cautious giving into the marketing hyperbole, and swooning over these companies. 800 quid to find out its not for you is a tough pill to swallow, no matter what level you are at!


----------



## Geoff Grace

Personally, I try to take branding with a grain of salt. For instance, when I hear the word "tundra," I think of Vince Lombardi and the Green Bay Packers; but _Albion V_ didn't sound anything like Sam Spence's music. (Now, _that_ would be a great library!)

Seriously though, I try to ignore partisanship about brands and judgments about marketing; but I listen when people share their experiences with a company's support staff.

My choices are made firstly by my ears and wallet, and secondly with the input of early adopters like *Daniel* and many others here who share their experiences with a product. Thank you all.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## mcalis

Meanwhile I am still wondering why there is a "bottle" mic...

Speaking of which, I think some people would be a lot happier if they'd ditched a few mics and provided more (consistent) articulations. €800 is a lot of money. I understand they need to earn back their investment but holy smokes... that shit aint cheap!


----------



## ka00

mcalis said:


> I think some people would be a lot happier if they'd ditched a few mics and provided more (consistent) articulations. €800 is a lot of money.



Two versions of this library would be fantastic. You’d have a choice between:

- Hans Zimmer Strings $800
- Hans “Slimmer” Strings (the slimmed down edition) $450


----------



## Polarity

Honestly HZS didn't convinced me since first official demos and official videos, luckily the "not work/install on Win 7" took any little temptation out of me that I could have.
Not convinced even by a new plugin engine instead of Kontakt (sorry I don't love Play GUI either since years).

Now the "first look" (and what a look) by Daniel James just gave me confirmation that I'd waste my money getting this, especially thinking about the HZ sound.
Because I totally join Daniel in thinking about what is the famous "Zimmerish sound" and I don't feel it in HZS. I agree with him about it's thinner (compared to other libraries), less tight and less powerful WHERE you would expect different.
Ok, it's very good sounding but actually I sincerely expected a very different sound when it was announced with HZ's name attached to it.

Is it not the universal objective truth the one Daniel speaks in the video?
Well, who cares! I think the same and agree with him!

I know and love what he composes and produce and so I tend to trust what he says about libraries which let him compose his epic tracks...
and in this video he's not just talking "air"... he's showing us, he's making us listen to those differences.
For example Cinematic Studio Strings examples are much more close, detailed and nice to HZ's Pirates' soundtracks sound! I told that already in the "famous here" The Robber track (by Christof) thread.

I agree with him also about the GUI. 

All my respect and ammiration to Daniel.
In HIS position HE got the balls to say what he thinks, period!


----------



## novaburst

Daniel James said:


> Perhaps you can understand my confusion when you take those ingredients and instead of blowing the roof you have 344 players play their instruments with the wrong side of the bow as quietly as possible.



I am confused at this comment, a huge sound isn't turn up the volume, its your approach and technique in what your doing with the product.

its clear you cant use this product like you do with a basic string section or you start stumbling and tripping up all over the place and also making wrong comments about the product.



I posted this on another thread but listen to how he explains what to do and how he achieved the desired sound, check out his method and knowledge of working with a huge string section then listen to the last result.

It was not a loud piece but the piece sounded huge and massive and it was not the volume he used it was a certain method and he explained it well, its not about hitting the note on your key board and hoping for the best, its about working with your product and making it do what it was meant to.

The product is the real deal I am sure Hanz would not seal his name on fake or misleading the public, neither do I believe Spitfire would do the same and any such suggestion is utter foolishness

Learn the product, this is the first of its kind to hit the sample market and the learning curve is much more than the basic, this instant gratification is whats messing up a lot of composers because they cant cope with the learning curve so start bashing and disrespecting and I feel strongly this is the case here.

If you cant handle it don't disrespect it.


----------



## blougui

mcalis said:


> Meanwhile I am still wondering why there is a "bottle" mic...
> !



Bottle mic was already featured in HZpercs. IIRC it’s supposed to add some low end flavor that you blend to taste with other mics.


----------



## blougui

misleading that’s what he’s implying, come on ! And at length with that !


----------



## Daniel James

novaburst said:


> If you cant handle it don't disrespect it.



This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.



novaburst said:


> I am confused at this comment, a huge sound isn't turn up the volume, its your approach and technique in what your doing with the product.



If you watched the video all the way through you will see at times I compare HZ strings to other libraries that sound more like HZ than HZ String does. For example I showed how recording the bass and cello doubled is a bigger feeling and more natural sound than having the 60 celli and 24 bases on their own instances. I compare how the low shorts layered like in Christians vid sound muddier and less 'Zimmer esq' than say Metropolis Ark 1 low spics. When you buy something branded Hans Zimmer you expect them to give you things that make it SOUND like Hans Zimmer. Again thats why you put a brand on the box. This is not that. This is just another string library that sounds no more Zimmer than any other basic string library....even less so with the examples I gave.



novaburst said:


> Learn the product, this is the first of its kind to hit the sample market and the learning curve is much more than the basic, this instant gratification is whats messing up a lot of composers because they cant cope with the learning curve so start bashing and disrespecting and I feel strongly this is the case here.



Pray-tell how is this library such a revolution in your eyes? Not all sections even have the most basic string articulations, the extended styles are similar to libraries that already exist (see Albion V), Sure it has lots of players but Spitfire themselves have already done that before with Albion 3, 8dio just put out a library of more basses. Its a great library but I seem to see where you are seeing the innovation. Had they given us some tools that achieved amazing divisi style shorts (something possible with LASS) I would have considered it more Zimmer. If it had some special layerings like bass cello octaves or even good smooth Batman spiccatos, I would say its more Zimmer. But other than using his players and mic set up non of the content is anymore Zimmer than anything else. To me the point of calling it Hans Zimmer Strings is you are going to do something in the content you create that makes it distinctly Zimmer. And to me just having the more players doesn't get you there. 

Also I am not sure where you are getting this in your head that I think volume is the only way to a large sound, its more what they recorded. For example listen to how Albion 1's low octaves are recorded, listen to Metropolis Ark 1 and 3 by Orchestral tools. They recorded things loud, they recorded instructing doublings and size combinations...you push a key and its already by default more Zimmer sounding than the Zimmer strings. My main issue with Zimmer strings is they had everything perfectly in place to create the ultimate Zimmer sound and instead thought when people think zimmer they think albion V.

If you are going to attack me with 'You just don't get it' without examples. What don't I get? I spent 5 hours with it live, I used all the things. And if I have to go beyond the library to make it sound 'Zimmer' then the library itself by definition isn't zimmer enough.

-DJ


----------



## Daniel James

blougui said:


> misleading that’s what he’s implying, come on ! And at length with that !



I'm saying the product doesn't match the brand in this case. If you put Bugatti on a car you expect it fast not slow. If you put McDonalds on a food you expect it to be fast food not a 5 star meal. If you put Mont Blanc on a pen you expect quality not a bic ballpoint.

If you put Hans Zimmer on something you expect it to sound like Hans Zimmer. Based on what we know that brand to mean. No one (unless they are intentionally deceiving themselves for the sake of argument) thinks that the Hans Zimmer brand means more soft and quite more than it means big and powerful.

So yes I feel like this is more Spitfire than Zimmer. I justify that many times in the vid. If you disagree thats fine. But I feel its worth pointing out to those who are planning to spend $800 on it that it doesn't have that Hans Zimmer sound, its just his setup doing another Spitfire strings library.....of which there are literally already over 20 to choose from. Nothing about this library screams ZIMMER. It just says Spitfire. Again.

-DJ


----------



## yhomas

Daniel James said:


> Its all about branding.



I appreciate and respect your analysis and great videos including this one. Basically, your main point about HZ branding is perfectly true, and I am sure a large fraction will be disappointed by this--no question. 

On the other hand, HZ can do his branding however he wants. Arguably, HZ's major interest is about doing something "different", and it seems that this lib is at least does offer something different and useful to professionals (such as HZ himself). 

I am a layperson with some hobby interest, but I think that casually watching the Spitfire demos, maybe reading between the lines just a bit, basically gives most anyone the impression that the library strengths are the quiet articulations.

I have heard a lot of people love Albion 5, so let's just call this "HZ Tundra Strings XL". Arguably, the reasonable analysis here is for a composer who wants a specialized soft/lush string lib that perhaps does Tundra better than Tundra. 

For my personal purposes, Albion 5 (particularly on sale for $200) seems like a better bang for buck, but for an extra $400 one can go HZ Tundra String XL--and I imagine a lot of people are thrilled to have this option available to them.


----------



## Daniel James

yhomas said:


> On the other hand, HZ can do his branding however he wants.



As can Bugatti. But if someone buys the next car expecting what they know a Bugatti to mean then they will understandably be disappointed if they get something slower than a volvo.

-DJ


----------



## Geoff Grace

Does anyone here remember Spectrasonics Hans Zimmer Guitars? I do.

Maybe it's partly my age; I've been around nearly as long as *Hans*. I was in college when "Video Killed The Radio Star" was released. As a result, my association with his "brand" includes a wide variety of styles and sounds. I can't think of a product that's been released with his name on it that's alien to the music he's created.

Of course, I realize why some people associate him with what's now called "Epic" music—and it's great if he's inspired them to make their own epic sounds—but I think it's a disservice to his legacy to expect that any product bearing his name should have that one particular sound.

That said, I can't think of a recent product more deserving of the "YMMV" tag than this one. Many love it; many don't. C'est la vie.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## quantum7

ka00 said:


> - Hans “Slimmer”



LOL. It sounds like the name brand that he would call himself if he ever decided to retire from the music biz and then opens up a chain of weight-loss centers.


----------



## South Thames

Daniel James said:


> If you put Hans Zimmer on something you expect it to sound like Hans Zimmer. Based on what we know that brand to mean. No one (unless they are intentionally deceiving themselves for the sake of argument) thinks that the Hans Zimmer brand means more soft and quite more than it means big and powerfu



I'm basically in agreement with you on pretty much all of your criticisms, and the walkthrough was very enlightening as to some in-practice flaws, so thanks for that.

But I would say this. I don't own the library, and the reason I don't own it is because it was clear to me from the very first walkthrough (published well before the introductory promo price expired) that this was essentially yet another experimental Spitfire string library emphasising obscure technical, ambient patches and omitting the trickier stuff of actual bread-and-butter orchestral emulation -- convincing legatos, agile and varied shorts, useful combo patches etc. I chimed in on the introductory thread saying as much, and so did a number of others.

So whilst I would agree the name/marketing thrust is misleading, I would say caveat emptor to anyone who would buy the product without reviewing the walk-throughs and demos - whilst they may not have have uncovered the technical flaws you highlighted in your video, I think they do make it 100% clear that this is not a 'Hanz Zimmer' strings toolkit for those looking to buy a sort of pre-fab larger-than-life Zimmer strings sound, but something different and more obscure, and with a far more tangential relationship to the composer whose name is plastered on the box.


----------



## blougui

Daniel, so you say there’s some misleading with the brand, right?
I have no horses here, I was just correcting some previous interpretation of your comments on Twitch. I wasn’t commenting on wether you’re right or wrong - I couldn’t care less. I just appreciate your blunt honnesty, far more interesting or shall I say realistic than so many NFR reviews we now get - but man, 5h ! :-D


----------



## Daniel James

South Thames said:


> I'm basically in agreement with you on pretty much all of your criticisms, and the walkthrough was very enlightening as to some in-practice flaws, so thanks for that.
> 
> But I would say this. I don't own the library, and the reason I don't own it is because it was clear to me from the very first walkthrough (published well before the introductory promo price expired) that this was essentially yet another experimental Spitfire string library emphasising obscure technical, ambient patches and omitting the trickier stuff of actual bread-and-butter orchestral emulation -- convincing legatos, agile and varied shorts, useful combo patches etc. I chimed in on the introductory thread saying as much, and so did a number of others.
> 
> So whilst I would agree the name/marketing thrust is misleading, I would say caveat emptor to anyone who would buy the product without reviewing the walk-throughs and demos - whilst they may not have have uncovered the technical flaws you highlighted in your video, I think they do make it 100% clear that this is not a 'Hanz Zimmer' strings toolkit for those looking to buy a sort of pre-fab larger-than-life Zimmer strings sound, but something different and more obscure, and with a far more tangential relationship to the composer whose name is plastered on the box.



Well when they did the Bernard Herman library, its was a good representation of what that brand means. There were elements they didn't really dive into like the legatos or shorts leading up to release so my assumption was that they have the Zimmer sound covered, they are just showing what else you get. But nope...90% Albion V style 5% Zimmer style 5% broken.

-DJ


----------



## Daniel James

blougui said:


> Daniel, so you say there’s some misleading with the brand, right?
> I have no horses here, I was just correcting some previous interpretation of your comments on Twitch. I wasn’t commenting on wether you’re right or wrong - I couldn’t care less. I just appreciate your blunt honnesty, far more interesting or shall I say realistic than so many NFR reviews we now get - but man, 5h ! :-D



Yeah using the brand that has expectations and making something that isnt anything like what people expect with the brand. I now know that anything labelled with Hans Zimmer from Spitfire will probably not sound like Hans Zimmer, which to me just makes it another Spitfire library, and I will decide to buy it based on that. 

-DJ


----------



## tehreal

blougui said:


> Daniel, so you say there’s some misleading with the brand, right? [...]





Daniel James said:


> Yeah [...]



Whoops. You walked through that door all by yourself.


----------



## South Thames

Daniel James said:


> Bernard Herman library, its was a good representation of what that brand means.



Hermann library was a composer toolkit though, which this is not. I think the precedent here was the Zimmer percussion libraries, which I find tremendously useful, though again they would probably not be what most people would imagine on the basis of the name -- eg. it was not an easy way to quickly spin up Zimmer-esque percussion tracks, but rather a set of overall fairly natural (not pumped up) recordings of some very useful and not widely sampled percussion instruments.

Admittedly, I think the presence of 'Composer Toolkits' in their range alongside these Zimmer ventures which are not apparently intended as such, is indeed a source of marketing confusion and fixing that that should be a takeaway for them.


----------



## Daniel James

tehreal said:


> Whoops. You walked through that door all by yourself.



What? I have explained that many times. 

-DJ


----------



## Daniel James

South Thames said:


> Admittedly, I think the presence of 'Composer Toolkits' in their range alongside these Zimmer ventures which are not apparently intended as such, is indeed a source of marketing confusion and fixing that that should be a takeaway for them.



Yeah this could exacerbate the problem for sure. But they have a whole marketing team, it surprises me that they missed that putting Hans Zimmer on their products would make their customers expect a Hans Zimmer sound.

-DJ


----------



## blougui

Sound decision, in your position.
As SA seldom provides playthroughs, I often hold my wallet and wait for more demos and opinions before taking a leap of faith -as non of these pricey tools are licence-transferable.


----------



## NoamL

About "obscure" extended articulations - I see from a quick search that there are 200+ mentions of Bartok pizzicatos on VIC and only 30 mentions of col legno tratto. But there is really no reason why Bartok pizzicatos have become such a "standard" extra articulation. They are not that much more common in printed music than a bunch of other extended techniques for strings. I assume Bartoks have become "standard" because they're easy to sample, no legato transitions etc.


----------



## Critz

How could you deny it is an unfinished product? Did you hear those bumps and inconsistencies?
The legato is quite terrible. I mean, I would not expect a realistic legato from a library like that, but at the same time this is totally overpriced for a "layering/sound design" string library.
This is a bigger fail than Synchron Strings, I tell you.


----------



## tehreal

Daniel James said:


> What? I have explained that many times.
> 
> -DJ



Just don't like the word mislead. Usually means "with deliberate deceit". I think you mean that they're "unintentionally giving the wrong impression".


----------



## procreative

Geoff Grace said:


> Does anyone here remember Spectrasonics Hans Zimmer Guitars? I do.
> 
> Maybe it's partly my age; I've been around nearly as long as *Hans*. I was in college when "Video Killed The Radio Star" was released. As a result, my association with his "brand" includes a wide variety of styles and sounds. I can't think of a product that's been released with his name on it that's alien to the music he's created.
> 
> Of course, I realize why some people associate him with what's now called "Epic" music—and it's great if he's inspired them to make their own epic sounds—but I think it's a disservice to his legacy to expect that any product bearing his name should have that one particular sound.
> 
> That said, I can't think of a recent product more deserving of the "YMMV" tag than this one. Many love it; many don't. C'est la vie.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



Dont forget the Going For Gold theme (with its cheesy vocal) or The Damned's Black Album...


----------



## Covent Garden

Daniel James said:


> Yeah using the brand that has expectations and making something that isnt anything like what people expect with the brand. I now know that anything labelled with Hans Zimmer from Spitfire will probably not sound like Hans Zimmer, which to me just makes it another Spitfire library, and I will decide to buy it based on that.
> 
> -DJ


Hi Daniel,
I am not a Pro - and first of all I really appreciate this kind of review because it's authentic and it's your opinion. More free minded Folks please! We do need more such personal statements. And I totally agree that we are all Beta Testers - the Legato Patch bug f.e. is a shame! That reminds me to a "new" strategy of 8 DIO - they called it: "Beta Order". And I do now that 8 DIO Libs are sometimes over priced BUT: They declared the known bugs and envited the customers to report all bugs they'll find. Maybe the've learned from their Adagio "Desaster". And it was a fair deal if you want to accept the price ... So YOU have the choice!

But I don't understand really all the discussions about "Hans Zimmer" Sound", because the Demo Videos of Spitfire speaks for themselves (oh yeah, there were NO Legato Demos..). Today here in Germany I could coincidentally watch "Gladiator" in TV and I tried to give all possible attention to the typical "Hans Zimmer Sound" and I could notice very much of the lush Sound which you can find in the Demos of HZ Strings: Big but not loud, overwhelming strings with an enormous dynamic range, well defined Soundscapes. Let me call it "Big silence". The Lib (without Bugs for sure) would definitely fit this kind of epic music style (think about the parts with Choir and Female Voice at the end) in my opinion.

That said it won't fit the style of Pirates of the Caribbean, because I do agree that the weakness of the short articulations (Furthermore side by side with inconsistency of articualtions) is hard to believe. Century Strings - a smaller string section - will do that better (very nice Staccatos / different Spiccatos) and in case of Boombastic Epic Stlye Metropolis ARK 1 / 2 / 3 are doing a better job. Nevertheless I do like (as you've also said!) the lush sound of HZ Strings very much. But do I want to pay 599 EUROs for a Beta Stadium? Hmmmm - that is a hard decision, isn't it?

So thank you very much for your Statement and please go on James!

Markus


----------



## MaxOctane

There's just a basic ambiguity when a product is branded. Many will obviously feel like DJ, that a branded product means "this sounds like the composer's classic works." 

But Spitfire's product is, instead, "A string library that Hans Zimmer made." His crew, his techniques, and presumably he "executive-produced" it by signing off at various stages of development.

They're both valid, and certainly our pal @Rctec is not interested in a cartoon of himself.

I think this argument could have been avoided if it had been named "Hans Zimmer _SomethingSomething_ Strings." The Tidal Orchestra (aka Orchestral Swarm) was a HZ collaboration and didn't have any of this debate, because it was clear that this was an _idea_ that HZ had, which Spitfire executed. Just like here, HZ had an idea of 344 players in various configurations with silky tones.

I do believe that a product should be measured on its own merits and not the _a priori_ expectations, but DJ expresses a real concern from the *customer *POV, that many people may be disappointed to receive a product that wasn't what they expected (regardless of how good it sounds).


----------



## novaburst

Daniel James said:


> When you buy something branded Hans Zimmer you expect them to give you things that make it SOUND like Hans Zimmer. Again thats why you put a brand on the box. This is not that. This is just another string library that sounds no more Zimmer than any other basic string library....even less so with the examples I gave.



The title of the library is called Hans Zimmer Strings, the title is not called sound like HZ Strings if you or anyone wants the Hanz sounds then learn his chord progression, or compose a Hanz Zimmer piece then you are more likely to sound like him, but you want get a Hanz sound just because you have a product he was involved in the from the get go does not and will never make sense, how do you expect a Hans sound just because you have a product of his.

If you sat down with a piano and played same Hanz chops you will get a better result.

The product was made so you and I say again you or any one who has it can get creative with a type of product that Hans uses not so you can sound like him.



Daniel James said:


> -tell how is this library such a revolution in your eyes? Not all sections even have the most basic string articulations



we are not talking articulations we are talking about a huge string section with strings all over the place including the balcony, I do not agree that the same approach can be used for this product as your basic library, the product is different it is the first it will take a learning curve to get the correct sound its that simple, and I would suggest until that skill is learn don't use it or at least don't comment on it, because people will listen to you especially the haters of this type of music,



Daniel James said:


> Also I am not sure where you are getting this in your head that I think volume is the only way to a large sound, its more what they recorded. For example listen to how Albion 1's low octaves are recorded, listen to Metropolis Ark 1 and 3 by Orchestral tools.



If your reviewing or first looking at a product the easiest thing to do is fault find and compare just to say its not worth it,

Your review should have been about you and your sound or tone and strictly about what you can do, not about comparison.

344 players will never sound like 16 players it just want happen, does not matter how you double and layer, hence learning how the product works is very important to give the correct review. 

A lot of what I am saying is my personal thoughts not only on you but a load disrespect coming from a lot of post on this product simply because of the review you made, and I feel you could have done better.


----------



## David Gosnell

As always Daniel, thank you for taking an insane amount of time to share your live run through of HZS. As I've said before, it's like going round to a mate's studio for a bit of banter without having to leave my own house. And I now have a mental postcard of Jack Sparrow I am unlikely to be able to erase from my mind anytime soon!

Curiously, I have to start off by speaking in Spitfire's defence! I saw the teasers and then the demos and the walkthroughs I even before HZ commented about Dunkirk, I did think I heard sounds in there that reminded me of Dunkirk. At the time when I saw the movie I can remember thinking that the strings sounded thick and fuzzy, like somehow the sound was too fat to be able to fit into my ears - or a bit like when you've been to a gig and everything afterwards sounds a bit fuzzy (analogous to when a bomb has just blown up on a beach next to you - which I assumed was the effect he was going for - reflected in much of the 'sounds' of the film). At the time I assumed there was analogue processing and a chain of distortion fx creating the sound rather than 344 players in a big room - but listening to the walkthroughs and demos it all kind of made sense. And where the rest of us would reach for the plug-ins, Hans has earned the right to the resources to hire £250k worth of musicians and stick 26 mics in front (and behind and underneath) them and see what it sounds like. To some it might seem self indulgent - but like I say, he's earned that right on the back of a career of consistently getting it right within the deadline.

Which brings me onto defending 'Marketing'. Before my current life, I was a marketer by trade. 

I am willing to bet that 99.9% of the pros on this forum have been asked by a client to rip off a cue by HZ (for me, the word 'Zimmer' has appeared in a brief 5 times in the last 6 months - though to be fair, one of those was an ad for products for the elderly). While I have no feel for the hobbyists musical tastes, I can bet a large proportion have tried to write a HZ rip-off. The market for a library which would give you the big legato low end of Batman, the detailed intricate strings , early strings or intense 'flagellation scene' strings of DaVinci Code, the earthy bombastic strings of Pirates and so on and so forth, would be huge. Such a library would have been a godsend to pros and hobbyists alike. It's all very well to say 'learn your tools', but if you have to crank out 10 minutes finished music a day for two weeks to hit a deadline - 'out of the box' works very nicely for me every time. *THAT* HZS library would have been the marketer's choice. You could keep releasing upgrades too, it would take 10 years to cover his existing work and so long as he keeps on working you would need new material every year to cover his latest creative direction. A legend who keeps re-inventing himself is a match made in marketing heaven.

As I have said before, one of the issues with composer / developers is that they tend to get enthusiastic about products which suit their own compositional style. If they only ever use legato in unison they can easily create a library that can't cut it for composers who routinely use legato for 5 part contrapuntal, and so forth. Using those incredible resources to create sounds that suit a specific compositional style was an exercise in self indulgence, not in marketing. The owner of a library can record and release what they like - and I would like to think their new CEO would have pointed out to them at some point that they would make much more money recording the library Daniel wanted to buy than the one they recorded instead - and I assume Christian and Paul have decided to put their own creative beliefs before profit in this case. As for HZ, I equally assume his participation was motivated by something other than money - as I can't imagine his royalties for HZS will cause much of a blip in his earnings graph.

On my listening to the library demos, walkthrough and your first look - I did find the quiet stuff the most interesting, and actually my favourite sound was the Long Col Legno Tratto! I would tend to agree that the louder stuff didn't really grab me the same way the 8ve legato low strings did in the original Albion the first time I heard them (The first thing I thought was HZ/JNH Batman!). I didn't feel they offered anything significantly different to what I already had in SSS - and in 'epic' terms, not as useful as Metropolis Ark, or Albions 1 & 3. Music is however a business, and my next question was 'when would I use the quiet stuff?'. Dunkirk was an experimental movie in the way it presented well known material in a radically different way - and although I thought in places that worked and for me in places it didn't - it suited an experimental sound world. When would I have needed HZS in the last 5 years - and I couldn't think, at least for me, of a single brief it might have helped with. With the best will in the world, I might think Long Col Legno Tratto is cool, but most clients or audiences wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that and Symphobia CS - especially under dialogue. So I decided to pass; if I get offered a tense noir Scandi drama some day I can always go back and buy it later 

As to the sectional inconsistencies - that is a bugbear of mine for most of the high end string libraries. They are called 'sections' for a reason, and 90% of the time all the strings will be playing the same articulation - so they all need to have the same articulations available. If you're short of budget, record less articulations - I don't think I've ever used Bartok Pizz in my life! I would also have thought their existing Kontakt GUI could have been retained but perhaps made a bit bigger (i.e. easier to read) in the new player - they have spent a long time tweaking it based on customer feedback and we've spent a long time learning to use it. The fewer clicks the better is always a good choice and seeing all your mic faders at once seems obvious. In terms off the new player, you'll only really know how it plays with the other kiddies when you use it in anger - but I too would find it a wrench to move away from a multi-timbral plug-in' and unless it has a purge / learn type function like Kontakt, having a full library loaded along with everything else would seriously test RAM availability judging by the sizes of the patches you were loading.

Hopefully you won't receive too many death threats. Another thing I learned as a marketer was that people can get very passionate about defending a brand in which they have invested heavily - and the world of sample libraries has always struck me as particularly 'religious' in that respect - they can get quite prickly when it comes to blasphemy!

Thanks again though - everyone needs a virtual reality mate they can have a studio based laugh with. Now however I must create a new Jack Sparrow / Daniel James meme - I'd post it back here but I suspect it falls foul of the forum rules regarding pornographic images :-(


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## Emmanuel Rousseau

Some people here have a quite vulgar way to talk about HZ's work. It's not about "chord progressions", it's not about being ballsy and bombastic. There is no "HZ sound" : there are plenty. It's not a magic recipe one can get, with a signature library or not.

This way of thinking really feels reductive, and dare I say : almost insulting !


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## bpford

I think DJ you're mostly disappointed because they didn't put out a Daniel James strings library. 

Fair play on your other criticisms re: the articulation inconsistencies,gui, etc. but its pretty presumptuous of you to claim what the "Zimmer" sound is, considering, Hans himself has put his name on this project and defended it and the Spitfire team in these forums. Perhaps he has a better idea of what his sound is? 

Here's another thing to chew on...maybe the Hans Zimmer sound is more closely related to a conceptual work process (as CH hinted at in his latest walkthrough and you summarily dismissed), than a specific staccato articulation and ostinato style that he popularized and abandoned over 20 years ago? Maybe what makes his music stand out from his imitators and the seemingly endless stream of exciting but boring trailer music that parodies his scores from the 90's, is his inquisitive approach to bending and melding the tools at his disposal? 

And this library, does give the end user the opportunity to go way deeper into sculpting and manipulating the sound than in other libraries. Finding their own voice and sound. Making something new-ish. 

But yes, the shorts are a little flabby compared to Albion 1.


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## reids

bpford said:


> I think DJ you're mostly disappointed because they didn't put out a Daniel James strings library.
> 
> Fair play on your other criticisms re: the articulation inconsistencies,gui, etc. but its pretty presumptuous of you to claim what the "Zimmer" sound is, considering, Hans himself has put his name on this project and defended it and the Spitfire team in these forums. Perhaps he has a better idea of what his sound is?
> 
> Here's another thing to chew on...maybe the Hans Zimmer sound is more closely related to a conceptual work process (as CH hinted at in his latest walkthrough and you summarily dismissed), than a specific staccato articulation and ostinato style that he popularized and abandoned over 20 years ago? Maybe what makes his music stand out from his imitators and the seemingly endless stream of exciting but boring trailer music that parodies his scores from the 90's, is his inquisitive approach to bending and melding the tools at his disposal?
> 
> And this library, does give the end user the opportunity to go way deeper into sculpting and manipulating the sound than in other libraries. Finding their own voice and sound. Making something new-ish.
> 
> But yes, the shorts are a little flabby compared to Albion 1.



In terms of the "Zimmer" sound, many customers will want to be able to play and mock-up his scores in the strings section with very convincing results. A product marketed and hyped to this caliber, they are rightly so. Yes, he has a deep conceptual work process, but he also has access to the kind of "string sounds" the average composer, musician/hobbyist would like to 'emulate' for any particular reason...pick your choice. That overall string sound people have come to know and expect isn't well covered here in this library as we are led to believe...not even close.


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## emasters

bpford said:


> but its pretty presumptuous of you to claim what the "Zimmer" sound is, considering, Hans himself has put his name on this project and defended it and the Spitfire team in these forums. Perhaps he has a better idea of what his sound is?



I have followed Daniel for a long time with his videos - and look forward to, and enjoy what he has to share about different libraries/products. Player/legato defects aside (which Spitfire will correct), if Hans Zimmer put his name on this and had an active role in the libraries' production, then from his perspective it represents at least one dimension of the "Hans Zimmer Sound." Whether that aligns with a customer's perspective for the library, is up to each of us. In Daniel's case, clearly there is a gap. I like the sound of the library. But then the "Hans Zimmer Sound" from what I've seen and read about his process, is constantly evolving, very creative with its use of acoustic and analog instruments, focused on real players (perhaps getting sampled) with an incredible attention to detail. Certainly Han's music can sound epic and bigger than life, but it's certainly a lot more. I can appreciate Daniel's disappointment, and as a customer, he certainly has every right to share his perspective. But in Spitfire and Han's defense, they never misrepresented what this library was delivering, the walkthrough videos demonstrated the content and every step of the way, Hans was chiming-in here, showing his support for Spitfire. They were clearly in synch with what was being delivered and the product's brand identity.

Spitfire has consistently shown a strong commitment to its customers. The inconsistencies of volume, issues with legato, etc. will get sorted out (hopefully, quickly). But the core library is what it is at this point. Like it or not, from Hans Zimmer's perspective, this has his approval. So we move on. In my case, I'm looking forward to experimenting with it, learning better how to utilize the massive number of mic positions, and experiment. I have so many traditional string libraries already (as most of us probably do), with the same handful of core articulations, I'm anxious to see what one can do with these new tools in the box.

Peace...


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## markleake

novaburst said:


> The title of the library is called Hans Zimmer Strings, the title is not called sound like HZ Strings if you or anyone wants the Hanz sounds then learn his chord progression, or compose a Hanz Zimmer piece then you are more likely to sound like him, but you want get a Hanz sound just because you have a product he was involved in the from the get go does not and will never make sense, how do you expect a Hans sound just because you have a product of his.
> 
> If you sat down with a piano and played same Hanz chops you will get a better result.
> 
> The product was made so you and I say again you or any one who has it can get creative with a type of product that Hans uses not so you can sound like him.


With all due respect @novaburst, I call BS on this.

I understand what you are saying to a degree... that it is _how_ you use it that matters. But I think this just reinforces Daniel's comments, because it is basically saying a string library sold with Zimmer's name all over it (even with his clear attention and vetting of all the sounds), isn't going to sound much like Zimmer.

Er, what?

That's how I read what you wrote above.

I think it is a reasonable expectation that a library with his name on it is going to get you a fair way towards his sound without putting _too_ much effort in.


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## bpford

reids said:


> In terms of the "Zimmer" sound, many customers will want to be able to play and mock-up his scores in the strings section with very convincing results. A product marketed and hyped to this caliber, they are rightly so. Yes, he has a deep conceptual work process, but he also has access to the kind of "string sounds" the average composer, musician/hobbyist would like to 'emulate' for any particular reason...pick your choice. That overall string sound people have come to know and expect isn't well covered here in this library as we are led to believe...not even close.



You've led yourself to believe that. As many others have pointed out, based on the walkthroughs and demos, there was no marketing that hinted at or promised the sound of Zimmer from 20 years ago. That's been well covered by plenty of other libraries, SF included, for going on 10 years now. What you are getting access to, is, literally the samples he used less than a year ago on an Oscar nominated score. How much more bleeding edge can you expect...for $600 bucks? The price of a mexican strat.


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## Drundfunk

I agree with you that the name Hans Zimmer has a certain connotation towards epic and huge. I can understand your frustration to a certain degree. When the libary was announced I was really excited but when I was looking at the articulations and walkthrough I quickly came to the conclusion it is not for me. I appreciate your honesty. I'm pretty sure you saved some people from spending a lot of money. In my opinion the price tag is ridiculously high for what you get. In a way it is understandable that they have to pay the players and all the other people involved (and want to make a profit), but it just doesn't seem right to me. Well pretty sure they make their money back since the name Hans Zimmer is attached to it. Ironically my favourite Hans Zimmer score is The Last Samurai but still.....If this was all about huge and epic and marvelously done I'd probably be on board. Anyway looking forward to your next video. Always interesting, entertaining and helpful


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## tehreal

bpford said:


> [...] What you are getting access to, is, literally the samples he used less than a year ago on an Oscar nominated score. [...]



Out of curiosity, where is this claim made (I can't find this claim on the product page)?


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## markleake

bpford said:


> You've led yourself to believe that. As many others have pointed out, based on the walkthroughs and demos, there was no marketing that hinted at or promised the sound of Zimmer from 20 years ago. That's been well covered by plenty of other libraries, SF included, for going on 10 years now. What you are getting access to, is, literally the samples he used less than a year ago on an Oscar nominated score. How much more bleeding edge can you expect...for $600 bucks? The price of a mexican strat.


But I think that is the point, isn't it? Most people will expect the well known Zimmer sound, at least to some degree. And Spitfire in their marketing did make comments about it sounding big and lush. We may all have a different understanding of what that actually means in practice, but from a lot of the noise here on the forum _prior_ to the library's release, it was clear a whole load of people were going to be dissapointed. If you listened to what Spitfire _weren't_ saying or demonstrating with the library, it said a lot more than what they _did_ say.


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## husselblum

Obviously HZ in becoming a "brand" instead of being a living and working composer has lost all rights to collaborate with a sample library manufacturer to produce a product that he himself envisioned and actually uses. He should probably just change his name and/or stop doing stuff that other people don't want him to do.


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## markleake

tehreal said:


> Out of curiosity, where is this claim made (I can't find this claim on the product page)?


HZ in the commercial thread I think commented that he used the library for a few tracks in a movie. Someone then posted a Dunkirk track and I think he agreed it was used for that one, or didn't deny it at least. That thread is so big though... good luck in searching through it.


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## husselblum

markleake said:


> HZ in the commercial thread I think commented that he used the library for a few tracks in a movie. Someone then posted a Dunkirk track and I think he agreed it was used for that one, or didn't deny it at least. That thread is so big though... good luck in searching through it.



There you go:

https://vi-control.net/community/th...-ch-in-depth-video.68809/page-32#post-4197543


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## reids

bpford said:


> You've led yourself to believe that. As many others have pointed out, based on the walkthroughs and demos, there was no marketing that hinted at or promised the sound of Zimmer from 20 years ago. That's been well covered by plenty of other libraries, SF included, for going on 10 years now. What you are getting access to, is, literally the samples he used less than a year ago on an Oscar nominated score. How much more bleeding edge can you expect...for $600 bucks? The price of a mexican strat.



And this is to the point I was trying to make. Quite frankly, there was so few demo videos put out by SF only briefly covering it, one has little to know idea what this product is other than to assume by the iconic name and the hype of *344 STRING PLAYERS*, what direction and the kind of string library it is. Would you not think there would be no loud, bombastic, and thick strings covered with such a scale of string players recorded? Yes, I led myself to believe this to be the kind of sound one would get. Why is that? Because that is the kind of sound that has been widely known and associated to his name. I "led" myself to believe this based on the name and lack of coherent demo videos/music and Daniel believed this as well yet we don't know each other and probably live in different parts of the world. So I'm most certainly sure a vast majority of interested prospects will too until they get to the point of realization where we're in now. This is the issue here with the use of the name and not being upfront with what it actually is and can do. So bravo for being so vague where one has little to go on than believing in the name and the man's signature string sounds. It's a great idea for business cash-in at the moment, but not long term.


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## davidgary73

Just posting this so we know what HZ Strings is all about from the man himself.



Rctec said:


> if you want action, you need tight, small sections, front desk, playing aggressively with agility. Like a squadron of Spitfires . If you want a broad, epic, wide, girth and depth to your sound, use a large section. Lancasters over Berlin. It’s quit simple: you need to move massive volumes of air evenly. (Look up the physics paper on what the “Greatful Dead” did with their P.A. In the 70’s: hundreds of very high quality speakers as a wall, none of them driven into distortion...) That’s why Brass is so efficient at being loud and epic.
> But I’ve moved on from a lot of those “Batman” days, even though it’s all part of an ongoing experiment and search for ‘The Sound’ I hear in my head. But that was 16(!) Years ago...
> That “Batman” score is very much two complete string sections: one for the Long notes to give it size (never playing more than an mf+), and a more close-mic’ed agile section for the ostinatoes, accents and action bits. The ‘bite’ comes from the low Brass and Horns. ...by the time of, I think, “Dark Knight”, there was a gaggle of contra bass bassoons and bass clarinets hidden away with the Basses. But if you really have a good, analytical listen, you’ll always find two orchestras serving different roles (and different perspectives) in the action stuff. The excitement comes from the percussion, the synth and soloists. The emotional depth comes from the large amount of players playing at a quite restrained dynamic. I said it before: you need to find out where the Sweet Spot in an instrument is. And it’s never at the fff end of things. The rest is up to orchestration, recording and mixing chops. I didn’t come to being a composer from the normal channels of music school. I started out as a sound-designer (it was called “Synth-programmer” then) for other composers like Stanley Myers, Michael Kamen, George Martin, Christopher Gunning...So I developed a sense of production (especially with Trevor Horn) and Sonic Landscapes...
> But if you want that “Pirates” sound (please don’t - it’s soooo old), you have to remember its 50% samples. The same goes for things like “Gladiator”, which we did 18 Years ago.
> But we live in a time where you can truly experiment with sound like never before, especially with the scale of things. There is no reason to write like Beethoven and use that (then) revolutionary size orchestra any more. Our way of projecting the notes from the instrument on stage to the ear of the listener has changed tremendously since the time of Mahler (one of my favorite orchestrators...). All the “tricks” he had to pull, like, for example, the ‘offstage’ brass playing quite forcefully - and therefore ‘unnaturally’ against a single flute solo in the 2nd Symphony - we can do with recording and amplifying and specialization of the sound (Space! That’s what it’s all about for me... building perspectives that might be realistic or take poetic license...). I think it serves no one to try to emulate the “classical” orchestra (other than as an exercise). The old masters wherent old then, they where the revolutionary young things, and Strauss and Stravinsky had riots because they didn’t sound like what had come before. Equally, I don’t think louder or bigger is better. But... a solo violin has an unmistakably different timbre than a violin section. A single drummer has a different sound than turning them into a section as we did on “Man Of Steel”...
> So no, this was never thought off as the ‘All-Purpose’ string library. Those all exist, in one form or other. What Paul, Christian and I are interested in is expanding the range of possibilities beyond the constraints of architecture and 16th century technology. This library can play loud. That’s easy with that many players (sidebar - twice as many players is not twice as loud), but to be able to find the hidden, the quiet nuance, the most beautiful shimmer in the air...that’s what I’m interested in - at the moment. Next year, or maybe even tomorrow, I’ll be hunting down some other sound...



So this is not an ‘All-Purpose’ string library. It’s an “immersive" string library, not a bombastic string library.


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## ism

In hopes of maybe getting more discussion of music and less repetitive combativeness, heres a link to Han's post which is well worth a read ..

https://vi-control.net/community/th...-demos-welcome-here.70175/page-5#post-4209530

A few hilights:

"if you want action, you need tight, small sections, front desk, playing aggressively with agility. Like a squadron of Spitfires"


"If you want a broad, epic, wide, girth and depth to your sound, use a large section. Lancasters over Berlin. It’s quit simple: you need to move massive volumes of air evenly. (Look up the physics paper on what the “Greatful Dead” did with their P.A. In the 70’s: hundreds of very high quality speakers as a wall, none of them driven into distortion...)"

"The emotional depth comes from the large amount of players playing at a quite restrained dynamic. I said it before: you need to find out where the Sweet Spot in an instrument is. And it’s never at the fff end of things. The rest is up to orchestration, recording and mixing chops."

"So no, this was never thought off as the ‘All-Purpose’ string library. Those all exist, in one form or other. What Paul, Christian and I are interested in is expanding the range of possibilities beyond the constraints of architecture and 16th century technology. This library can play loud. That’s easy with that many players (sidebar - twice as many players is not twice as loud), but to be able to find the hidden, the quiet nuance, the most beautiful shimmer in the air...that’s what I’m interested in - at the moment. Next year, or maybe even tomorrow, I’ll be hunting down some other sound..."

And this I think goes a long way to answering this question:



Daniel James said:


> Pray-tell how is this library such a revolution in your eyes?



And just hearing this samples, the demos, this is something I can feel about this library, if not necessarily articulate. And I think Hans articulates it brilliantly, here and elsewhere.

And the reason I would even read so far in such a combative thread is in hopes of getting some insight into this.

I do like Daniels's music and style. When I tuned into the livecast I was hoping to get some insight into how this 'revolutionary' (which I think here just means new-to-sample libraries) quality might complement his work, and was disappointed.

But maybe now we can frame this in terms of the legitimate tensions of two styles and productively discuss this at a musical level?

I'm not saying I'm against a good riot per se, but the internet isn't my favourite medium for riots.


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## bpford

reids said:


> And this is to the point I was trying to make. Quite frankly, there was so few demo videos put out by SF only briefly covering it, one has little to know idea what this product is other than to assume by the iconic name and the hype of *344 STRING PLAYERS*, what direction and the kind of string library it is. Would you not think there would be no loud, bombastic, and thick strings covered with such a scale of string players recorded? Yes, I led myself to believe this to be the kind of sound one would get. Why is that? Because that is the kind of sound that has been widely known and associated to his name. I "led" myself to believe this based on the name and lack of coherent demo videos/music and Daniel believed this as well yet we don't know each other and probably live in different parts of the world. So I'm most certainly sure a vast majority of interested prospects will too until they get to the point of realization where we're in now. This is the issue here with the use of the name and not being upfront with what it actually is and can do. So bravo for being so vague where one has little to go on than believing in the name and the man's signature string sounds. It's a great idea for business cash-in at the moment, but not long term.



I think they had the same amount of demos they usually put out for a product...between 3 and 4? And I listened to them and thought...I don't need this...it's too big and epic for the music I make.

As to what I expect 344 STRING PLAYERS to sound like...I would never expect them to be playing super articulate, defined shorts or whatever. Have you heard a large ensemble playing tutti before in a room? It's pretty loose, even when it's tight. 

If the SF marketing videos had been in the vein of the EW choir marketing material, I'd think you guys would have a point, but they led with a typically restrained and tasteful, if heavily publicized roll-out.

Anyway, there was a demo someone posted on the other thread that was pretty good and way more typical of what I expect of the Zimmer sound, than the piece DJ was trying to shoehorn the library into. So I do think it can capture that ostinato epic sound, its just not what you've imagined it to be.


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## Daniel James

ism said:


> "if you want action, you need tight, small sections, front desk, playing aggressively with agility. Like a squadron of Spitfires"
> 
> 
> "If you want a broad, epic, wide, girth and depth to your sound, use a large section. Lancasters over Berlin. It’s quit simple: you need to move massive volumes of air evenly. (Look up the physics paper on what the “Greatful Dead” did with their P.A. In the 70’s: hundreds of very high quality speakers as a wall, none of them driven into distortion...)"
> 
> "The emotional depth comes from the large amount of players playing at a quite restrained dynamic. I said it before: you need to find out where the Sweet Spot in an instrument is. And it’s never at the fff end of things. The rest is up to orchestration, recording and mixing chops."
> 
> "So no, this was never thought off as the ‘All-Purpose’ string library. Those all exist, in one form or other. What Paul, Christian and I are interested in is expanding the range of possibilities beyond the constraints of architecture and 16th century technology. This library can play loud. That’s easy with that many players (sidebar - twice as many players is not twice as loud), but to be able to find the hidden, the quiet nuance, the most beautiful shimmer in the air...that’s what I’m interested in - at the moment. Next year, or maybe even tomorrow, I’ll be hunting down some other sound..."



Then give me all that. Give me all the articulations and prebaked versions of those. Give me the small tight section in divisi. Give me the 32 basses he talked about in his roundtable. Take all those staples one associates (including the smaller and softer stuff alongside) with the brand of Hans Zimmer and put THAT in the library called Hans Zimmer Strings. 

Thats why I keep saying you have to take Hans the person out of this a little bit. He personally sees things like the batman ostinato, or the pirates theme or the gladiator battle.... and he sees it as being done/old/boring because he has exhausted those techniques. But I HAVN'T there are things with those techniques which I want to take in new directions, ones Hans hasn't thought of yet. I want to try things he didn't before he moved on. Techniques and stylistic choices which are out of the ordinary are things I want to experiment with. Thats why I wanted this library to be a collection of what defines the Zimmer legacy. But I just got another string library with Hans' name on. Hans is still experimenting with this current thing, I want to see what he does with it before I try so that I can try to do things he didn't think to do.

Lol anyways I am too out of it to argue with everyone today, I shall continue this when I am next able.

-DJ


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## jtnyc

emasters said:


> Spitfire has consistently shown a strong commitment to its customers. The inconsistencies of volume, issues with legato, etc. will get sorted out (hopefully, quickly).



Many old Spitfire Libraries still have the inconsistencies you mention and more including tuning, phasing issues, and missing mic positions. They have shown more of a strong commitment to releasing libraries at a rapid rate, promoting the hell out of them with glossy stylized marketing campaigns, all the while not addressing issues in previously released libraries. When I think of the time and resources that goes into all that marketing, while at the same time existing libraries sit for months and months with unresolved issues... sorry I just don't see that commitment. Again, I love many Spitfire libraries and recognize the talent and time that goes into conceptualizing, planning and making them, but to say that they are on top of fixing issues just doesn't ring true to me. 

I just grabbed Tundra during the sale. Some really beautiful sounds in there! I absolutely love the soft lush vibe it provides. Unfortunately there are missing mic positions, unintended notes in samples, bumpy buzzy releases in places and tuning issues. How completely disappointing. The library was released in the fall of 2016, yet these issues still exist? How many new releases since then? I have to say that if I dropped $449 on it, I'd be more upset than I am. I'm still not happy, but there is a lot to like and at $199 it's easier to swallow. 

I say, less marketing, slow down the pace of new releases and focus on quality control and fixes.


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## reids

Daniel James said:


> Then give me all that. Give me all the articulations and prebaked versions of those. Give me the small tight section in divisi. Give me the 32 basses he talked about in his roundtable. Take all those staples one associates (including the smaller and softer stuff alongside) with the brand of Hans Zimmer and put THAT in the library called Hans Zimmer Strings.
> 
> Thats why I keep saying you have to take Hans the person out of this a little bit. He personally sees things like the batman ostinato, or the pirates theme or the gladiator battle.... and he sees it as being done/old/boring because he has exhausted those techniques. But I HAVN'T there are things with those techniques which I want to take in new directions, ones Hans hasn't thought of yet. I want to try things he didn't before he moved on. Techniques and stylistic choices which are out of the ordinary are things I want to experiment with. Thats why I wanted this library to be a collection of what defines the Zimmer legacy. But I just got another string library with Hans' name on. Hans is still experimenting with this current thing, I want to see what he does with it before I try so that I can try to do things he didn't think to do.
> 
> Lol anyways I am too out of it to argue with everyone today, I shall continue this when I am next able.
> 
> -DJ


These are exactly my points here as well. But you have to understand you are not going to get these signature sounds and playing styles from SF. Not this early in the game. It's like pharmacy, you want a cure or solution but they just give you a fix so you come back hoping or "believing" for something more your never gonna get. Once they've exhausted giving you bits and pieces here and there for strings, milking you, then maybe...just maybe it may be time to take a serious look at making the compendium HZ Strings Library after their 30th string library many years later. Probably by this time, technology will have advanced so much already that other devs will all have this area covered well.


----------



## davidgary73

I think we should save ourselves from this agony ahaha. This string library is not epic or bombastic and no longer the old HZ style we are so accustomed to. It’s HZ Dunkirk style from now onwards, wide and immersive. No more big drums and crazy fast string lines.


----------



## Daniel James

reids said:


> These are exactly my points here as well. But you have to understand you are not going to get these signature sounds and playing styles from SF. Not this early in the game. It's like pharmacy, you want a cure or solution but they just give you a fix so you come back hoping or "believing" for something more your never gonna get. Once they've exhausted giving you bits and pieces here and there for strings, milking you, then maybe...just maybe it may be time to take a serious look at making the compendium HZ Strings Library after their 30th string library many years later. Probably by this time, technology will have advanced so much already that other devs will all have this area covered well.



Yeah I just wanted the thing about Hans Zimmer strings to be things that are about it being Hans Zimmer. I had people emailing me saying that Ashton made it sound like Hans Zimmer....I have no fucking doubt he did. He made all the libraries before HZ Strings sound like Hans Zimmer too. You can take pretty much any library from the past 10 years and make it sound like Hans Zimmer. I just wanted the Hans Zimmer Strings library to get me there from the get go. Have some Zimmer style patches prebaked, have some special zimmer style articulations, groupings layering etc.

I'm not saying you can't get a Zimmer sound out of Hans Zimmer strings...I'm saying its no more Zimmer sounding than any other string library, and thats what I wanted, I wanted to push a key and be thrown into the purgetory of inception trying to find jack sparrow while toppling an emperor. And this is just another string library with more players with Zimmer branding.

Sure its my own fault for assuming brand Zimmer meant something in particular. A mistake I won't make again (I said that after HZ perc urgh) as I now know Hans Zimmer on the brand just means he is helping make it not it will sound anything like brand Hans Zimmer. But then I would just be comparing it to any other string library on the market. And I already said in the video how I would rate this library as just another string library (which I guess it actually is)....its inconsistent with articulations, The basic articulations do not have enough depth (programming/layer wise) compared to the competition. There are other string libraries that to me surpass what its trying to do as a string library in terms of bread and butter uses like legatos or spiccatos or tremolos.

And thats my point. If the brand Hans Zimmer has no specific meaning then this library is just another string library but they have more players and mics. Which is a nice novelty but in terms of end result makes it a very niche library. For the same price you can buy libraries which are actually closer to what one would expect to hear from something with the Zimmer brand, except they also include brass perc choir and band.

If this didn't have the Zimmer branding, and Spitfire made the exact same library I would have shown an interest for sure but for the same reason I don't have their other strings (not my taste and dont feel powerful enough) I probably would have passed. I for one definitely bought into the fact it was a Hans Zimmer String library. Again sure maybe its just me, but I wanted something special. Something defining. Instead its Spitfire Strings - With Hans Orchestra.

-DJ


----------



## reids

Also, can we hear some strings runs on here if someone can share or if this has already been covered somewhere. Thanks.


----------



## Soundhound

Having spent much of my adult life in marketing meetings (time i will never get back) exactly that kind of hilarious/mind numbingly ridiculous outcomes are pretty par for the course i’m afraid.




Daniel James said:


> But they have a whole marketing team, it surprises me that they missed that putting Hans Zimmer on their products would make their customers expect a Hans Zimmer sound.
> 
> -DJ


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Surely sounding like HZ, isn’t just about the sounds themselves but also about the composition too...? 

Like in Christians video, where he used different patches playing different melodies that interacted with each other...


----------



## Rctec

Daniel James said:


> Yeah I just wanted the thing about Hans Zimmer strings to be things that are about it being Hans Zimmer. I had people emailing me saying that Ashton made it sound like Hans Zimmer....I have no fucking doubt he did. He made all the libraries before HZ Strings sound like Hans Zimmer too. You can take pretty much any library from the past 10 years and make it sound like Hans Zimmer. I just wanted the Hans Zimmer Strings library to get me there from the get go. Have some Zimmer style patches prebaked, have some special zimmer style articulations, groupings layering etc.
> 
> I'm not saying you can't get a Zimmer sound out of Hans Zimmer strings...I'm saying its no more Zimmer sounding than any other string library, and thats what I wanted, I wanted to push a key and be thrown into the purgetory of inception trying to find jack sparrow while toppling an emperor. And this is just another string library with more players with Zimmer branding.
> 
> Sure its my own fault for assuming brand Zimmer meant something in particular. A mistake I won't make again (I said that after HZ perc urgh) as I now know Hans Zimmer on the brand just means he is helping make it not it will sound anything like brand Hans Zimmer. But then I would just be comparing it to any other string library on the market. And I already said in the video how I would rate this library as just another string library (which I guess it actually is)....its inconsistent with articulations, The basic articulations do not have enough depth (programming/layer wise) compared to the competition. There are other string libraries that to me surpass what its trying to do as a string library in terms of bread and butter uses like legatos or spiccatos or tremolos.
> 
> And thats my point. If the brand Hans Zimmer has no specific meaning then this library is just another string library but they have more players and mics. Which is a nice novelty but in terms of end result makes it a very niche library. For the same price you can buy libraries which are actually closer to what one would expect to hear from something with the Zimmer brand, except they also include brass perc choir and band.
> 
> If this didn't have the Zimmer branding, and Spitfire made the exact same library I would have shown an interest for sure but for the same reason I don't have their other strings (not my taste and dont feel powerful enough) I probably would have passed. I for one definitely bought into the fact it was a Hans Zimmer String library. Again sure maybe its just me, but I wanted something special. Something defining. Instead its Spitfire Strings - With Hans Orchestra.
> 
> -DJ


Daniel, I still haven’t watched your video, I apologize, but - why don’t I let you run riot for a couple of days in my room with my custom library? You can review it, if you want... the problem is, it’s so customized that, unless you spend a lot of time learning it - which you can’t do in a quick walk-through - it’ll sound... well, like anything “Spitfire” have done before (give or take some nuance that, by building their own sampler, they can address in time). I mean, you’ve had time in the past to see my set-up...
But you and I have very different ways of working. You are really fast - something I quite envy - and I have a feeling that you’d go absolutely balmy with the way my personal style of programming - and therefore the approach we’ve taken to the samples - takes forever. No instant gratification. I’m sooo slow, shaping each and every note. Because i can. Because that’s my style. And my samples are recorded and built around that. It’s not a ‘democratic’ sample engine like Kontakt that would suit everyone. It’s full of weird things that are specific to my ideas - and therefore my style.

But it is uncompromising.

And the team has accumulated vast amounts of knowledge over the years. The people like Mark Wherry and Claudius Brüse, Geoff Foster and our in-house sample team led by Taurees Habib and Raul Vega are forever focused on one dictator’s  vision. I don’t have to worry about how anyone else feels about the technology.
I find it amazing that some people complain about the amount of microphones we give them. It just makes me wonder if they have any concept of how much the choice of microphones, the distance - and all the other things that shape a sound emotionally - are part of creating the whole experience of recorded music.

Of course you can come up with a thousand new ideas differing from mine with the same material my custom samples allow. Lorne Balfe or James Newton-Howard - to name just two - do so on a daily basis. But they’ve been part of this, learned how to use the damn thing and make it their own for years.

And, quite honestly, other than the bugs I know that the “Spitfire” team will fix (I knew it was a really dangerous project to do this library and build a new sample engine. But I didn’t want to discourage the “Spitfire” team. So I kept my mouth shut...), the sounds are build in the same principals I used for my own work:

Make a library that will take a while to explore. A long while...See it as a new instrument that you have to commit to learning - even if it’s just learning how differently the response and latency is.
Is the basic sound inspiring? Because if it is, it’s worth committing to learning. Instant sounds bore me. Will the sound draw you in or push you away? ...And that’s completely subjective.

Daniel, we would have called it the “Hans Zimmer Legacy” strings, had we gone for what I was doing in 1994...

There are enough libraries out there that can do a pretty close job of what I was doing then. I promise you - because I’ve done it, when I didn’t have access to my own sounds (it’s a long story) - I can make “Time” sound as good with just the normal “Spitfire” strings.

But this is different. On purpose.

Look, other sample libraries have tried to do “me”. Either by using the musicians I’m closely connected to, or hiring my sample team away from me. The knowledge and their worth came from working on my projects for years - but (and I think it was a short-lived Love affair) it didn’t seem to work out. I didn’t try to persuade my team to stay, I really hoped that this would work out for all of them and make their lifes better...And I didn’t tweet about it, either.

But if I had to give you a bottom line to this whole discussion, it’s this: I have nothing but faith and respect for the work that Christian, Paul and everyone else at “Spitfire” is doing. I value them as people and composers, as pushers-of-the-envelope. I think they have integrity and good taste. They share their knowledge (look at Christian’s videos - he doesn’t have to do that...), which goes far and above the call of duty in selling a product. They are passionate about music and the orchestra. ...and they happen to have a similar sonic Love for that studio that I do. And really, I’m not in it for the money. Never was.
-Hz-


----------



## BradHoyt

Daniel James said:


> Then give me all that. Give me all the articulations and prebaked versions of those. Give me the small tight section in divisi. Give me the 32 basses he talked about in his roundtable. Take all those staples one associates (including the smaller and softer stuff alongside) with the brand of Hans Zimmer and put THAT in the library called Hans Zimmer Strings.
> 
> Thats why I keep saying you have to take Hans the person out of this a little bit. He personally sees things like the batman ostinato, or the pirates theme or the gladiator battle.... and he sees it as being done/old/boring because he has exhausted those techniques. But I HAVN'T there are things with those techniques which I want to take in new directions, ones Hans hasn't thought of yet. I want to try things he didn't before he moved on. Techniques and stylistic choices which are out of the ordinary are things I want to experiment with. Thats why I wanted this library to be a collection of what defines the Zimmer legacy. But I just got another string library with Hans' name on. Hans is still experimenting with this current thing, I want to see what he does with it before I try so that I can try to do things he didn't think to do.
> 
> Lol anyways I am too out of it to argue with everyone today, I shall continue this when I am next able.
> 
> -DJ



So Hans said this: "So no, this was never thought off as the ‘All-Purpose’ string library. Those all exist, in one form or other. What Paul, Christian and I are interested in is expanding the range of possibilities beyond the constraints of architecture and 16th century technology. This library can play loud. That’s easy with that many players (sidebar - twice as many players is not twice as loud), but to be able to find the hidden, *the quiet nuance, the most beautiful shimmer in the air...that’s what I’m interested in - at the moment. *Next year, or maybe even tomorrow, I’ll be hunting down some other sound..."

So what I take away from this is that Hans doesn't concern himself with what your, or anyone's, expectations of what a 'Hans Zimmer library' should be. You're not owed anything, he's doing whatever the hell he wants and Spitfire's helping him out with that.

I can respect that...


----------



## Puzzlefactory

The whole “sound like Hans” discussion reminds me a lot of Noisia in the DnB scene 10 years ago.

Everyone in the forums wanted to sound like Noisia (in particular their signature “Reese” sound) and there were posts left right and centre asking “how do I make bass sound x or y...”

It was discovered that they mainly used FM8, Massive, Razer, Kontakt, mutliband distortions.

So naturally everyone went out and bought those plugins but still no one could get that Noisia sound.

It’s becaue it wasn’t plugins or even then production techniques they employed. It was the time they invested.

In a later interview it was discovered that they would dedicate days to sound designing a single sound. By creating dozens, if not hundreds of different iterations of the same sound and bouncing them down and saving them as they went and then finding the sound that suited the track later on.

Seems this is a similar situation.

It’s not about the starting sound set, but the time and effort that’s put into working with the sounds.


----------



## mac

Puzzlefactory said:


> The whole “sound like Hans” discussion reminds me a lot of Noisia in the DnB scene 10 years ago.
> 
> Everyone in the forums wanted to sound like Noisia (in particular their signature “Reese” sound) and there were posts left right and centre asking “how do I make bass sound x or y...”
> 
> It was discovered that they mainly used FM8, Massive, Razer, Kontakt, mutliband distortions.
> 
> So naturally everyone went out and bought those plugins but still no one could get that Noisia sound.
> 
> It’s becaue it wasn’t plugins or even then production techniques they employed. It was the time they invested.
> 
> In a later interview it was discovered that they would dedicate days to sound designing a single sound. By creating dozens, if not hundreds of different iterations of the same sound and binding down and saving them as they went and then finding the sound that suited the track later on.
> 
> Seems this is a similar situation.
> 
> It’s not about the starting sound set, but the time and effort that’s put into working with the sounds.



But if someone were to release a synth called 'Noisia bass', I know my expectations wouldn't be for a standard synth with basic sine wave presets that you still had to program to get that sound!


----------



## Puzzlefactory

mac said:


> But if someone were to release a synth called 'Noisia bass', I know my expectations wouldn't be for a standard synth with basic sine wave presets that you still had to program to get that sound!



Actually, they did release a sound pack for Sylinth 1. It wasn’t very good (at least it didn’t have their signature sound in it).

Also, I don’t think it’s a fair comapatison to compare Hz strings to a synth with a couple of sine wave patches.


----------



## mac

Puzzlefactory said:


> Actually, they did release a sound pack for Sylinth 1. It wasn’t very good (at least it didn’t have their signature sound in it).



And this is Daniels point - he feels HZS doesn't have what _he_ and a lot of people consider Hans signature sound.


----------



## MaxOctane

I think we've all said everything there is to say about whether or not this meets the expectations of "Hans Zimmer" brand.

We should go back to discussing the sound of the library itself. Strengths, weaknesses, comparisons to libs from Spitfire and others, etc.


----------



## ThomasNL

So it really is Hans Shimmer strings huh?


----------



## Alex Fraser

Daniel, take Hans up on the offer mate. I speak for everyone when I say we *really* would like to see that video.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

mac said:


> And this is Daniels point - he feels HZS doesn't have what _he_ and a lot of people consider Hans signature sound.



I guess. 

It depends, I think, what you consider the Zimmer sound to be? 

I think some people can confuse Zimmers sound with Trailer music sound. 

I’ve just started listening to a Zimmer playlist on Spotify and what is striking me is how little the strings are in your face and when they are, they sound like small sections or soloists. 

Even the dark knight rises ostinatos are quite soft. 

A lot of his power comes from the brass IMO.


----------



## Consona

Wasn't there the writing on the wall with the Hans Zimmer Percussion already?

When I buy HZ Percs I expect to get something that'll make my studio monitors explode, some Man of Steel/Batman v Superman epic craziness, not some nicely sampled "ordinary sounding" drums. That's where the expectation based on a brand name comes into the whole thing.

Likewise, when I buy HZ Strings, I expect those Batman cello section spiccati, I expect Man of Steel Terraforming 4:45 basses and celli chainsaw FFF spicatti, I expect big, epic, loud, sweeping.

• Is it a reductionism of what Hans Zimmer's soundtrack work is? Yes, absolutely. Because HZ is the one who reinvents himself with like every movie now. Sherlock Holmes sounds very different from Batman, which sounds different from Interstellar, which sounds different from Man of Steel, which sounds different from Inception, which sounds different from Spider-man, etc. And yes, you have Driving Miss Daisy and Rain Man there too, but also The Rock and Gladiator... 

• But is it something misleading when I label exactly this (Batman/MoS spiccs) "HZ sound"? No, because it is exactly what people expect from HZ strings. It's like you make HZ Brass library without BRAAAAAAMMMMM. That's exactly what it is. It's like you make HZ Percussion without The Man of Steel Epic Drum Assault From The Outer Space patch. 
Braaam is like 0,001% of Hans' work, but it's one of those things what people think of when you say Hans Zimmer, IMO.


Sometimes the whole "Hans Zimmer sound" thing itself is misleading. Like when you listen to the Batman Begins, those spiccati are not loud and shattering all the time, they are actually quite soft a lot of the time, the whole sound is about the great production, mixing, orchestration, all that stuff. And while library cannot give me a good orchestration of my pieces, it can give me what I don't have, those instruments recorded and processed with the specific equipment, sampled at FFF, sampled tutti to get that nice full big yet quite clear because well orchestrated BRAAAM sounds, etc.
Of course in the end we can debate to the end of time what "HZ sound" is, what should be labeled and sampled as the "HZ sound", not only because Hans reinvents his sound palette, but because some people don't watch some types of movies, so what that sound is for someone is something else for somebody else. But what are his biggest films people associate him with? The Dark Knight trilogy, Inception, Pirates, Superman, big sweeping adventurous scores. It's like when you say John Williams, it immediatelly connotes "themes, classic orchestra, woodwind runs ". So, for me, when I get HZ Percs lib and somebody tells me, "just process those nice samples with UAD plugins", that's not why I bought "HZ" Perc library. Hope that makes some sense.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Personally I thought Hz Perc was huge. I always hold off using it i my (epic) tracks until the climax. 

Also, isn’t “hugeness” just a matter of contrast? 

If you want Perc or strings to stand out, then you mix/orchestrate it that way...?


----------



## Consona

Puzzlefactory said:


> Personally I thought Hz Perc was huge. I always hold off using it i my (epic) tracks until the climax.
> 
> Also, isn’t “hugeness” just a matter of contrast?
> 
> If you want Perc or strings to stand out, then you mix/orchestrate it that way...?


Agreed. But there are sounds you can't get just by orchestrating normal samples well. Listen to the Batman v Superman soundtrack.


----------



## Cinebient

I wonder why people always think everyone (or most people) should expect the same, especially if you take the time and go trough the walktroughs.
I mean when i first heard about HZ Strings it wasn´t clear for me what that means because i had the in your face things as well as the soft but epic things in mind. Then i watched the (yes few) demos and it was very clear what it will be. The rest is what people make out of it.
So this library might be a love/hate thing maybe. It might be very unexpected for some.....that is HZ 
But i also would totally agree that this was NEVER a misleading marketing in any way. 
Just my worthless opinion from an unbiased costumer. Of course every meaning is legit and i really appreciate to saying what people really think (even if it was a real rant and felt a bit over the place at the end).


----------



## Consona

Like what's the difference between "nice deeply sampled drums" and "nice deeply sampled HZ drums", when those HZ drums don't give you that Zack Snyder Superman vs Zod film sound? Does it just mean it was produced by Hans but that's all? If that's the case then ok, but... feels like something is missing.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Consona said:


> Like what's the difference between "nice deeply sampled drums" and "nice deeply sampled HZ drums", when those HZ drums don't give you that Zack Snyder Superman vs Zod film sound? Does it just mean it was produced by Hans but that's all? If that's the case then ok, but... feels like something is missing.




Again it’s contrast though. Just started listening to Man of steel and the biggest drums are in tracks where basically that’s all that’s playing (oil rig for instance).


----------



## Puzzlefactory

It’s the same as when people were talking about how huge John Williams Timpani were in Last Jedi.


----------



## Consona

Puzzlefactory said:


> Again it’s contrast though. Just started listening to Man of steel and the biggest drums are in tracks where basically that’s all that’s playing (oil rig for instance).


That still does not mean you can get that sound from ordinary samples.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Consona said:


> That this does not mean you can get that sound from ordinary samples.



Sure, but knowing HZ Perc as I do and listening to the Man of steel soundtrack as we speak, I don’t see any reason the one can’t handle the other.


----------



## Consona

What about this?


----------



## Consona

But BvS was released after HZ Percs so it's not fair, maybe those J XL mixes are close.

But post same examples and prove me wrong, nothing against that.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

I’m at work at the moment listening to Spotify on my phone. 

But didn’t @ashtongleckman do a “behind the score” for superman...? Would be interested to know which percussion samples he used.


----------



## blougui

Consona said:


> Like what's the difference between "nice deeply sampled drums" and "nice deeply sampled HZ drums", when those HZ drums don't give you that Zack Snyder Superman vs Zod film sound? Does it just mean it was produced by Hans but that's all? If that's the case then ok, but... feels like something is missing.



HZ percs were recorded prior to Superman vs Batman,weren't they ?
edit : Oh you beat me to it...


----------



## Hybrid X

quantum7 said:


> Amen! I can’t even imagine how much money I would’ve saved over the years if everyone who did reviews gave an honest review without worrying about getting bashed for it. Thank you Daniel for being honest on what you think.



I can fully agree with that! Thank you!!


----------



## ashtongleckman

Puzzlefactory said:


> I’m at work at the moment listening to Spotify on my phone.
> 
> But didn’t @ashtongleckman do a “behind the score” for superman...? Would be interested to know which percussion samples he used.


Was all strikeforce, HZP, Met Ark 2 (booms), drum lab (kits). Little bit of action strikes too for the snares.


----------



## Consona

ashtongleckman said:


> Was all strikeforce, HZP, Met Ark 2 (booms), drum lab (kits). Little bit of action strikes too for the snares.


Thx for info. This sample libs game is far too expensive for me, should have studied pencil drawing instead. 

But to comment on that remake, this is the exactly of what I'm talking about. Go listen to the original MoS soundtrack, the sound of those drums is actually very different to all those libraries. The space, the air around those drums, it's all missing here. The MoS stuff is recorded, EQed and compressed very differently. There's this _Man of Steel Complete Motion Picture Score_ with the "Action Drums Suite" track. Totally naked percs track. Go compare that. Really different sound... @Puzzlefactory


----------



## axb312

One point which I find extremely fair in Daniel's vid is - Why not do everything from the really soft to the bombastic with this library?

Like how often do you get 344 players together?


----------



## novaburst

markleake said:


> With all due respect @novaburst, I call BS on this.
> 
> I understand what you are saying to a degree... that it is _how_ you use it that matters. But I think this just reinforces Daniel's comments, because it is basically saying a string library sold with Zimmer's name all over it (even with his clear attention and vetting of all the sounds), isn't going to sound much like Zimmer.
> 
> Er, what?
> 
> That's how I read what you wrote above.
> 
> I think it is a reasonable expectation that a library with his name on it is going to get you a fair way towards his sound without putting _too_ much effort in.



Its the way HZ plays his chords and composes his music that give the HZ sound in that respect any instrument will do.

If these strings were used in a movie then you will need to copy that very same movie to have the same sound.

The idea of these strings is to have your own sound with a HZ tool and that was it, its just to take your creative level higher, or to get more creative with something that HZ would use, he is creative because he is unconventional
and these strings are unconventional. but being different or using the same product as someone does not mean you will sound like them unless you copy there music then people will say oh that sounds like HZ

If HZ name is on the product it means he had something to do with the development of it, so yes of course his name is going to be all over it after all he is now a recognized developer and now giving us the same type of tools he uses but not to sound like him, just to follow in his direction of the unusual.


----------



## Mike Fox

Puzzlefactory said:


> Personally I thought Hz Perc was huge. I always hold off using it i my (epic) tracks until the climax.
> 
> Also, isn’t “hugeness” just a matter of contrast?
> 
> If you want Perc or strings to stand out, then you mix/orchestrate it that way...?


Contrast is only part of it. The instruments being sampled, and how they are sampled is just as important. Just compare the Garageband timpani to the True Strike timpani. In isolation, the TS timpani feels and sounds bigger. Mixing and orchestrating something to sound huge can and does work, but when you sit down and compare CSS to Trailer Strings in isolation, you'll quickly understand why it's called Trailer Strings, and that's the library I'm going to reach for when I want that sound.


----------



## David Gosnell

I find myself in agreement with many different sides in this discussion. I can entirely sympathise with Daniel James' original position that what you are looking for in any HZ branded library is signature sounds. I can also more and more see where Rctec was coming from and what he has tried to achieve in this project.

I think HZ is unusual among the body of media composers in that I don't recognise his work based on compositional style. Williams, Elfman, Newman, Herrmann et al I think I could recognise just by reading a score. HZ has gone through periods where the compositional style was consistent for a while, but then moves on to explore something different. If I heard a new work by HZ I don't think I would suspect the work to be his based on orchestration, chord progressions, rhythms, melodies, modulations etc., I would suspect it was his through hearing something and thinking 'Oooh, what's that sound - I wonder how they did that?'. When I played my first note on the low legato 8ves in the original Albion I thought 'Zimmer' - an enhanced sub-bass element not present in a normal orchestral pairing of celli and bassi. The Braaaaam as another example, just a note - but when it first appeared it stood out as 'new' - not just new, but also ear candy. What Rctec describes above as a kind of curation of every single note is to me an element that has been consistent throughout his work - whereas what the notes are and what order/timing is applied has not.

To say that there is a specific 'Zimmer Sound' is perhaps way too generalised (although, when clients ask for it, we know it means what Daniel described), but I do feel that more than any other media composer I can think of, the 'sound' of the 'notes' before they are arranged into a score is a more important element of what makes HZ 'special'.

In that sense, more than any other composer I can think of (although, orchestrationaly Herrmann's combinations might qualify similarly) HZ is a composer for whom you could create a sample library that would be a major contribution towards trying to duplicate his work. I can select and D and an F (sorry, I can't remember what key it is in, in my head it's Dm) but until I have the 'Zimmer Sound', it isn't Batman.

Although I can't imagine that releasing all of the secret sauce for his past work would have any impact on whether he got gigs or not, I equally can't see why HZ would be motivated to spend his time in working with a developer to do it - pity though, it would be really good fun to play with! (Daniel, you should definitely take him up on his offer; maybe take some flowers, chocolates, a kilo of Thuringian rostbratwurst and a bottle of single malt to assist with any bridge repair work that might be required).


----------



## redlester

Daniel James said:


> As can Bugatti. But if someone buys the next car expecting what they know a Bugatti to mean then they will understandably be disappointed if they get something slower than a volvo.
> 
> -DJ



!! My Volvo’s quite nippy I’ll have you know. 

You’re probably thinking about the Volvos of 20 years ago.


----------



## Dr Belasco

redlester said:


> !! My Volvo’s quite nippy I’ll have you know.



Really??


----------



## Consona

David Gosnell said:


> I think HZ is unusual among the body of media composers in that I don't recognise his work based on compositional style. Williams, Elfman, Newman, Herrmann et al I think I could recognise just by reading a score. HZ has gone through periods where the compositional style was consistent for a while, but then moves on to explore something different. If I heard a new work by HZ I don't think I would suspect the work to be his based on orchestration, chord progressions, rhythms, melodies, modulations etc., I would suspect it was his through hearing something and thinking 'Oooh, what's that sound - I wonder how they did that?'.


But there's something about his music that's really recognisable, at least nowadays. I mean, the second I heard Supermarine from Dunkirk, I "knew" it's HZ. It just sounds like him, immediately. Maybe due to the production level, the way he uses orchestra not as an orchestra but only as another colour in the mix, the rhythms he uses, etc.


----------



## NoamL

Puzzlefactory said:


> It’s the same as when people were talking about how huge John Williams Timpani were in Last Jedi.



The difference is there is no "John Williams Timpani." John Williams writes for *the* timpani.

He has "favorite players," but in the sense that they're accurate at sightreading his challenging writing.


----------



## RiffWraith

NoamL said:


> He has "favorite players," but in the sense that *they're accurate at sightreading his challenging writing*.



That's part of it - but there's more to it than just that.


----------



## RiffWraith

David Gosnell said:


> (Daniel, you should definitely take him up on his offer; maybe take some flowers, chocolates, a kilo of Thuringian rostbratwurst and a bottle of single malt to assist with any bridge repair work that might be required).



DJ - if you go, I will meet you there and play tag-along!


----------



## NoamL

I mean Star Wars 7 still came out sounding like Star Wars with a different set of players, a different room....

of course it sounded SLIGHTLY different. But I think we only notice because we are in a "timbral age" of film music (see the Timbre Revolution thread where @Geoff Grace makes excellent points). I really think those differences aren't material to the emotional meaning of this specific kind of music.


----------



## David Gosnell

Consona said:


> But there's something about his music that's really recognisable, at least nowadays...



Anyone who heard The Rock would have recognised Man In The Iron Mask - but I don’t think that would have allowed them to recognise Da Vinci Code. In 10 years time, Dunkirk won’t be in the same compositional ball park as The Ipcress Files (or whatever Hollywood has decided to recycle at that point in time )


----------



## Daniel James

Rctec said:


> Daniel, I still haven’t watched your video, I apologize, but - why don’t I let you run riot for a couple of days in my room with my custom library? You can review it, if you want... the problem is, it’s so customized that, unless you spend a lot of time learning it - which you can’t do in a quick walk-through - it’ll sound... well, like anything “Spitfire” have done before (give or take some nuance that, by building their own sampler, they can address in time). I mean, you’ve had time in the past to see my set-up...
> But you and I have very different ways of working. You are really fast - something I quite envy - and I have a feeling that you’d go absolutely balmy with the way my personal style of programming - and therefore the approach we’ve taken to the samples - takes forever. No instant gratification. I’m sooo slow, shaping each and every note. Because i can. Because that’s my style. And my samples are recorded and built around that. It’s not a ‘democratic’ sample engine like Kontakt that would suit everyone. It’s full of weird things that are specific to my ideas - and therefore my style.
> 
> But it is uncompromising.
> 
> And the team has accumulated vast amounts of knowledge over the years. The people like Mark Wherry and Claudius Brüse, Geoff Foster and our in-house sample team led by Taurees Habib and Raul Vega are forever focused on one dictator’s  vision. I don’t have to worry about how anyone else feels about the technology.
> I find it amazing that some people complain about the amount of microphones we give them. It just makes me wonder if they have any concept of how much the choice of microphones, the distance - and all the other things that shape a sound emotionally - are part of creating the whole experience of recorded music.
> 
> Of course you can come up with a thousand new ideas differing from mine with the same material my custom samples allow. Lorne Balfe or James Newton-Howard - to name just two - do so on a daily basis. But they’ve been part of this, learned how to use the damn thing and make it their own for years.
> 
> And, quite honestly, other than the bugs I know that the “Spitfire” team will fix (I knew it was a really dangerous project to do this library and build a new sample engine. But I didn’t want to discourage the “Spitfire” team. So I kept my mouth shut...), the sounds are build in the same principals I used for my own work:
> 
> Make a library that will take a while to explore. A long while...See it as a new instrument that you have to commit to learning - even if it’s just learning how differently the response and latency is.
> Is the basic sound inspiring? Because if it is, it’s worth committing to learning. Instant sounds bore me. Will the sound draw you in or push you away? ...And that’s completely subjective.
> 
> Daniel, we would have called it the “Hans Zimmer Legacy” strings, had we gone for what I was doing in 1994...
> 
> There are enough libraries out there that can do a pretty close job of what I was doing then. I promise you - because I’ve done it, when I didn’t have access to my own sounds (it’s a long story) - I can make “Time” sound as good with just the normal “Spitfire” strings.
> 
> But this is different. On purpose.
> 
> Look, other sample libraries have tried to do “me”. Either by using the musicians I’m closely connected to, or hiring my sample team away from me. The knowledge and their worth came from working on my projects for years - but (and I think it was a short-lived Love affair) it didn’t seem to work out. I didn’t try to persuade my team to stay, I really hoped that this would work out for all of them and make their lifes better...And I didn’t tweet about it, either.
> 
> But if I had to give you a bottom line to this whole discussion, it’s this: I have nothing but faith and respect for the work that Christian, Paul and everyone else at “Spitfire” is doing. I value them as people and composers, as pushers-of-the-envelope. I think they have integrity and good taste. They share their knowledge (look at Christian’s videos - he doesn’t have to do that...), which goes far and above the call of duty in selling a product. They are passionate about music and the orchestra. ...and they happen to have a similar sonic Love for that studio that I do. And really, I’m not in it for the money. Never was.
> -Hz-



Just to clear a few things up. Firstly I never said anywhere you are in this for the money. Also I don't want access to purchase the literal samples from 1994. As I have said before, alot of my frustration comes from my own misunderstanding of what a Hans Zimmer branded library meant. I thought it would be a definitive collection of special string articulations/layerings/prebakes and such which are synonymous with what people mean when they say they want a 'Hans Zimmer' sound. Thats why I keep talking about brands so much, to many the 'brand' Hans Zimmer means the legacy of your work (which most people I believe attribute to power and grandiose) but to you....actually being Hans Zimmer the man, you want to use your name as a brand that means something new, new samples that don't exist already, not necessarily what one thinks of when they say Hans Zimmer....like Kirk Hunter or Chris Hein putting their name on strings. And thats your prerogative, and it totally fine. I just know now that the Hans Zimmer stamp on it is no actual indication going in what I am actually going to get (unless of course you attach a signifier like 'Legacy' or 'Quiet' to it).

So I get (and mentioned in my video) why its called Hans Zimmer strings now. Its a string library made by Hans Zimmer....not the sound Hans Zimmer has brought to strings in his amazingly popular works over the decades. Which is fair and as you can see some people are loving it which they will not get any disapproval from me for doing so. Like I said I wanted to peek into the past and play with the concepts and layerings you used back then but I want to take them in new directions, look at the current synthwave explosion of people taking the tools of the 80's and going in new directions. I wanted to do that but for orchestra. I wanted to take the things you brought to the table over the past few year....the sounds and techniques which are intrinsically you and sold out arenas across the world on your latest tour, the sounds that sold millions of records.... I want to see where I could take them.

And sure I can just do those things with libraries I have already. I just wanted the Hans Zimmer strings to be 'exactly' that. Sure I could layer 10 drum kit samples together but it wont sound as good as recording it live. I can put cellos and bass in octaves but it sounds better recording it live. I can do divisi with LASS but if you discovered a way to sample that in your style it would sound better recorded live. So yes my misconception of what the brand Hans Zimmer means is the main source of my frustrations with the library and that of a few others who have messaged me in agreement since my video went live. I have said above my opinions on the library as just a string library compared to everything else out there on the market in terms of both quality and price but I do feel like the branding to some means something different than it does to you.

You have to remember you live being the actual Hans Zimmer we however live with Brand Hans Zimmer, which is a collection of your end results. So when WE say Hans Zimmer we expect the end result when YOU say Hans Zimmer you expect the experimentation that goes into getting a new result.

And to the other point, I like you entered this industry from a sound design perspective, I have known nothing but samples pretty much in my career. I probably don't view them the same way you do even, you see the actual players when you hear the sample, I hear a sound. To me a string section is a really beautiful sound but a sound non the less, like a synth sound or a sound design. I feel treating them without bias helps me create music which is more creative or at least more in tune with my personal aesthetic. So its less about learning a sample library....a skill I am very well versed in doing its more about the fact I already have a lot of whats offered already, I was hoping for special. Like I was watching Christians video on the shorts...they only really get up to a modest tempo 8th note, with 16ths becoming a blur or a hassle (like how Christian had to spread 8ths across sections to get a faked 16th) I at least expected something with the Hans Zimmer name to get up to 16ths at 140!.... but even then I already have like 5 libraries which can do the 16ths at 140 really well, I also have string libraries which can do big 8th notes and down beats with more power because the power was recorded into the sample..... And like I said with the Ashton Gleckman making HZ Strings sound like pirates, of course he did, he managed to make all the strings before HZ come out sound like Hans Zimmer too! Its not about wether or not you can, its about wether or not it was designed to make that the focus.


Anyways I think I made that point clear.

And of course I would always take up an invitation to come see you and your samples....Please don't shank me though. My wife would be very annoyed.

-DJ


----------



## Geoff Grace

Daniel James said:


> I at least expected something with the Hans Zimmer name to get up to 16ths at 140!


Just take the legatos, perform a stutter edit, and BOOM—you're done! No big deal. 

Best,

Geoff


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

The legatos at their current state are electrifying as hell so that you moonwalk while buying a twat burger at wallmart.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

novaburst said:


> Its the way HZ plays his chords and composes his music that give the HZ sound in that respect any instrument will do.


Of course, the composition changes how the instrument sounds like BUT the instruments used also change how the compositon sounds like. Every instrument (or ensembles and their recordings) has another character. And there are sounds that are closer to HZ's sound and others that are further away. Of course you have to work with a library a certain way to get a certain but there are always libraries that make it harder or easier to get there.
Here for example is Time (as I remember it haha) on the piano Hans used in the score... and then the same melody on another pianos.
http://picosong.com/wekmF/
The feeling and sonic meaning of the composition changes dramatically, in my view...

What sounds you use matters, not just how you use them.

Random rant of the day.


----------



## ashtongleckman

Daniel James said:


> Just to clear a few things up. Firstly I never said anywhere you are in this for the money. Also I don't want access to purchase the literal samples from 1994. As I have said before, alot of my frustration comes from my own misunderstanding of what a Hans Zimmer branded library meant. I thought it would be a definitive collection of special string articulations/layerings/prebakes and such which are synonymous with what people mean when they say they want a 'Hans Zimmer' sound. Thats why I keep talking about brands so much, to many the 'brand' Hans Zimmer means the legacy of your work (which most people I believe attribute to power and grandiose) but to you....actually being Hans Zimmer the man, you want to use your name as a brand that means something new, new samples that don't exist already, not necessarily what one thinks of when they say Hans Zimmer....like Kirk Hunter or Chris Hein putting their name on strings. And thats your prerogative, and it totally fine. I just know now that the Hans Zimmer stamp on it is no actual indication going in what I am actually going to get (unless of course you attach a signifier like 'Legacy' or 'Quiet' to it).
> 
> So I get (and mentioned in my video) why its called Hans Zimmer strings now. Its a string library made by Hans Zimmer....not the sound Hans Zimmer has brought to strings in his amazingly popular works over the decades. Which is fair and as you can see some people are loving it which they will not get any disapproval from me for doing so. Like I said I wanted to peek into the past and play with the concepts and layerings you used back then but I want to take them in new directions, look at the current synthwave explosion of people taking the tools of the 80's and going in new directions. I wanted to do that but for orchestra. I wanted to take the things you brought to the table over the past few year....the sounds and techniques which are intrinsically you and sold out arenas across the world on your latest tour, the sounds that sold millions of records.... I want to see where I could take them.
> 
> And sure I can just do those things with libraries I have already. I just wanted the Hans Zimmer strings to be 'exactly' that. Sure I could layer 10 drum kit samples together but it wont sound as good as recording it live. I can put cellos and bass in octaves but it sounds better recording it live. I can do divisi with LASS but if you discovered a way to sample that in your style it would sound better recorded live. So yes my misconception of what the brand Hans Zimmer means is the main source of my frustrations with the library and that of a few others who have messaged me in agreement since my video went live. I have said above my opinions on the library as just a string library compared to everything else out there on the market in terms of both quality and price but I do feel like the branding to some means something different than it does to you.
> 
> You have to remember you live being the actual Hans Zimmer we however live with Brand Hans Zimmer, which is a collection of your end results. So when WE say Hans Zimmer we expect the end result when YOU say Hans Zimmer you expect the experimentation that goes into getting a new result.
> 
> And to the other point, I like you entered this industry from a sound design perspective, I have known nothing but samples pretty much in my career. I probably don't view them the same way you do even, you see the actual players when you hear the sample, I hear a sound. To me a string section is a really beautiful sound but a sound non the less, like a synth sound or a sound design. I feel treating them without bias helps me create music which is more creative or at least more in tune with my personal aesthetic. So its less about learning a sample library....a skill I am very well versed in doing its more about the fact I already have a lot of whats offered already, I was hoping for special. Like I was watching Christians video on the shorts...they only really get up to a modest tempo 8th note, with 16ths becoming a blur or a hassle (like how Christian had to spread 8ths across sections to get a faked 16th) I at least expected something with the Hans Zimmer name to get up to 16ths at 140!.... but even then I already have like 5 libraries which can do the 16ths at 140 really well, I also have string libraries which can do big 8th notes and down beats with more power because the power was recorded into the sample..... And like I said with the Ashton Gleckman making HZ Strings sound like pirates, of course he did, he managed to make all the strings before HZ come out sound like Hans Zimmer too! Its not about wether or not you can, its about wether or not it was designed to make that the focus.
> 
> 
> Anyways I think I made that point clear.
> 
> And of course I would always take up an invitation to come see you and your samples....Please.... don't shank me though. My wife would be very annoyed.
> 
> -DJ



In my personal opinion, it isn't the libraries that make one sound like Hans Zimmer, HGW, RGW, and so on. Even if one had an all-in-one Hans Zimmer ultra sample pack full of all of his sounds, sure it would be awesome but it's more about the orchestration, actual writing, production, etc. You can make CineStrings, Metropolis Ark 1, CSS, hell even SCS sound like Hans Zimmer. They were all recorded in beautiful rooms, with wonderful players, and have great people behind the scenes creating them. You could also make a Hans Zimmer library sound not like Hans Zimmer. You yourself at the end of your video played CSS and made them sound like Hans Zimmer. The point of the demo was to show that you can get this library to sound like HZ as well, fast ostinatos, intense sound, etc. It's all about the experimentation, and becoming more familiar with that hefty batch of mics. I think we have the tools that we need to take some Hans' innovations, run with it, and meld it into our own as you said above.

The one thing of course you can't replicate is his relationship with the musicians he works with (specifically soloists), no matter how much you try with samples, you won't be able to take some random library and replicate Anne Marie's solo violin work on Man of Steel or Lisa Gerrard's work on Gladiator. If you are talking about the overall sound and texture of the scores you referenced in your video though (Pirates, Inception), it's really about the approach vs the sounds.

This library seems to touch a bit on both worlds, the delicate and soft, and it also has another end which deffinetely takes some time to unearth, but is still there. I tried to touch on the contrast in my demo. One of the most important things I've learned (so far) by analyzing a few of Hans' scores, is that the writing is primarily characterized more by technique, production, and the emotional reason for putting the notes where they are. Whether it's the Divisi writing in TLS, the brass voicing in Inception, or the sonic manipulation of some of the quietest elements in his music.

Would it have been nice if Spitfire recorded some insane marcados, or massive swells with the players, deffinetely. But for me at least, there's already so many brilliant libraries available on the market right now that have all that stuff, and do it brilliantly. I saw the articulation list before I pre-ordered it and I knew what I was getting, I don't think they marketed incorrectly, they even had a walkthrough available, and told you straight up what you'd be getting.

It's an ultra unique sample pack that's versatility is more determined by the way you use it than it's out of the box sound.


----------



## Geoff Grace

ashtongleckman said:


> It's an ultra unique sample pack that's versatility is more determined by the way you use it than it's out of box sound.


_It's not what you have; it's how you use it._

That little nugget of wisdom crops up over and over again in life, doesn't it? Our consumer society would be rocked to its foundation if we lived by that adage every day.

Of course, there are limitations to that truth. There are some basic necessities required to make and record music; but too often, we look to the tools for solutions rather than within ourselves.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## bvaughn0402

I think there are a lot of valid points on here from everyone. 

But ... if playing this made you sound like HZ, don't you think even more people would complain about it?

I decided to get it because it sounds beautiful.

I love HZ, but I'm not aiming to sound like him. So if the library doesn't sound like him, all the better for me.

I own a lot of guitars and amps used by John Petrucci of Dream Theater. Even if I play his riffs, with basically his equipment, I still don't sound like him.

Now some would be highly disappointed in that. But I've realized after many, many years of life that I would rather "be the first of me and not the next of them".


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

I can understand both sides of the argument.

On one side, for some people, the name, the vibe of the marketing and the pricing seem to suggest "the ultimate cinematic string library". While in reality, it's actually a highly idiosyncratic, maverick library. Depending on your viewpoint and expectations, "Hans Zimmer" can stand for either.

And then there's stuff you just kind of know when you've been in the whole samples game longer. Like, what you can expect from a Spitfire library, and what not. This it true for the qualities as well as the drawbacks. It's hard to know for a less involved person though. 

In any case, I respect Daniel James' honesty. And I think the lib is traditionally overpriced. But that's me.


----------



## Daniel James

ashtongleckman said:


> In my personal opinion, it isn't the libraries that make one sound like Hans Zimmer, HGW, RGW, and so on. Even if one had an all-in-one Hans Zimmer ultra sample pack full of all of his sounds, sure it would be awesome but it's more about the orchestration, actual writing, production, etc. You can make CineStrings, Metropolis Ark 1, CSS, hell even SCS sound like Hans Zimmer. They were all recorded in beautiful rooms, with wonderful players, and have great people behind the scenes creating them. You could also make a Hans Zimmer library sound not like Hans Zimmer. You yourself at the end of your video played CSS and made them sound like Hans Zimmer. The point of the demo was to show that you can get this library to sound like HZ as well, fast ostinatos, intense sound, etc. It's all about the experimentation, and becoming more familiar with that hefty batch of mics. I think we have the tools that we need to take some Hans' innovations, run with it, and meld it into our own as you said above.
> 
> The one thing of course you can't replicate is his relationship with the musicians he works with (specifically soloists), no matter how much you try with samples, you won't be able to take some random library and replicate Anne Marie's solo violin work on Man of Steel or Lisa Gerrard's work on Gladiator. If you are talking about the overall sound and texture of the scores you referenced in your video though (Pirates, Inception), it's really about the approach vs the sounds.
> 
> This library seems to touch a bit on both worlds, the delicate and soft, and it also has another end which deffinetely takes some time to unearth, but is still there. I tried to touch on the contrast in my demo. One of the most important things I've learned (so far) by analyzing a few of Hans' scores, is that the writing is primarily characterized more by technique, production, and the emotional reason for putting the notes where they are. Whether it's the Divisi writing in TLS, the brass voicing in Inception, or the sonic manipulation of some of the quietest elements in his music.
> 
> Would it have been nice if Spitfire recorded some insane marcados, or massive swells with the players, deffinetely. But for me at least, there's already so many brilliant libraries available on the market right now that have all that stuff, and do it brilliantly. I saw the articulation list before I pre-ordered it and I knew what I was getting, I don't think they marketed incorrectly, they even had a walkthrough available, and told you straight up what you'd be getting.
> 
> It's an ultra unique sample pack that's versatility is more determined by the way you use it than it's out of the box sound.



I would accept your logic if there were not already libraries out there which are closer to the Hans Zimmer sound than Hans Zimmer Strings. No one when talking about making it sound more Zimmer are actually thinking of the solos they think about the general vibe, sure which is more about how you apply the notes than the samples themselves. But you can actually record some of 'how you use it' techniques, and others have before. Look at anything in Metropolis Ark, it evokes what most know to be a Hans Zimmer type sound. I don't literally want it to play the pirates theme when I push a key, thats ludicrous. No, what I wanted was the prebaked, curated versions of what Hans does. You said it yourself, I can make a Hans Zimmer sound from pretty much anything I have already. What I wanted was those stylistic elements done live. I wanted the prebaked layers of octave bases and cellos, I wanted strings in divisi, I wanted that batman room tone (look at CSS measured trem for something close) I wanted it to be Hans Zimmer Strings. A collection of techniques and layerings synonimous with Hans that I can reach for when I want to try something with that idea, without having to reach for 5 differently libraries and mix them in certain ways to get the same result.

My aim ISNT to sound exactly like Hans Zimmer. Its to take these elements, these ingredients he has added to the vocabulary of music and see where I can take them. Look at Cinesamples Cinebrass Pro, the 12 horns and Monster Low brass....super Hans Zimmer inception sounding (maybe even literally). They are some of my favourite patches, because I push a key and I hear an amazing texture which was popularised by Hans. Now when I use the Monster low patch, I am not trying to recreate Inception...my aim is, "Now I have this awesome brass texture how can I use it to achieve my aim". Same with 8dio Epic Drum kit, 10 drummers recorded live together sounds awesome, but you dont get quite the same sound with 10 individual drum patches loaded, air moves differently in the room in that regard. Now when I load up the Epic Drum Kit, my aim isnt to re-create Man Of Steel, its "ok where can we take this awesome concept"

So yes you can analyse and emulate his scores all you want and from what I see they are mostly accurate too. But I want to do the COMPLETE OPPOSITE. I wan't to take the techniques and vocabulary he brings the the language and take it places he didn't think of. Thats why I wanted Hans Zimmer strings to be more Zimmery. Like I say I come from a production first standpoint, I understand that people playing divisi live in a room is better than with samples, I get that 10 individual drum samples doesnt sounds as impressive as 10 recorded in one room. I wanted Hans Zimmer. So I could see how non Hans Zimmer I could make it.

-DJ


----------



## ml.yl

This is a very engaging thread I must say ! Just my two cents I am very much enjoying the library but would like to know if we are going to hear anything from spitfire or hans on the logic on why so many of the articulations vary from patch to patch. This would seem to make it a bit difficult to remember where an exact sound is and would slow down workflow and speed initially. Also can we can expect a fix for the legato issues soon. 

Would be great to hear some thoughts on these topics.

Thanks ...and as a newcomer to this forum can I just say I’m enjoying it greatly and the community here.


----------



## ism

Daniel James said:


> . I wanted Hans Zimmer. So I could see how non Hans Zimmer I could make it.
> -DJ



Good line - I quite like this way of expressing it.


----------



## tehreal

If I'd known that complaining at length about HZS would get me an invite to Hans' personal studio...


----------



## Mike Fox

bvaughn0402 said:


> I think there are a lot of valid points on here from everyone.
> 
> But ... if playing this made you sound like HZ, don't you think even more people would complain about it?
> 
> I decided to get it because it sounds beautiful.
> 
> I love HZ, but I'm not aiming to sound like him. So if the library doesn't sound like him, all the better for me.
> 
> I own a lot of guitars and amps used by John Petrucci of Dream Theater. Even if I play his riffs, with basically his equipment, I still don't sound like him.
> 
> Now some would be highly disappointed in that. But I've realized after many, many years of life that I would rather "be the first of me and not the next of them".


Of course you won't sound exactly like JP, even with all the same gear. I'm also a guitarist, so we both know that there other factors at play than just the equipment we use. However, how much closer are you going to get to JP's tone by using the same gear, as opposed to using a Crate practice amp and a Metal Zone distortion pedal (there's a reason signature amps, and guitars are made)? Furthermore, If JP's custom Mark V only had a slight overdrive channel, instead of bombastic gain that JP is known for, how dissapointed do you think you would be when you realized it? Sure, the amp has one of the most beautiful drive channels, but good luck getting the tone that JP is known for.


----------



## Soundhound

Have I mentioned that hearing the clicking of his keyboard in his masterclass is bothersome? (I live in Venice, can be to the studio on a moment's notice...)



tehreal said:


> If I'd known that complaining at length about HZS would get me an invite to Hans' personal studio...


----------



## ashtongleckman

Daniel James said:


> I would accept your logic if there were not already libraries out there which are closer to the Hans Zimmer sound than Hans Zimmer Strings. No one when talking about making it sound more Zimmer are actually thinking of the solos they think about the general vibe, sure which is more about how you apply the notes than the samples themselves. But you can actually record some of 'how you use it' techniques, and others have before. Look at anything in Metropolis Ark, it evokes what most know to be a Hans Zimmer type sound. I don't literally want it to play the pirates theme when I push a key, thats ludicrous. No, what I wanted was the prebaked, curated versions of what Hans does. You said it yourself, I can make a Hans Zimmer sound from pretty much anything I have already. What I wanted was those stylistic elements done live. I wanted the prebaked layers of octave bases and cellos, I wanted strings in divisi, I wanted that batman room tone (look at CSS measured trem for something close) I wanted it to be Hans Zimmer Strings. A collection of techniques and layerings synonimous with Hans that I can reach for when I want to try something with that idea, without having to reach for 5 differently libraries and mix them in certain ways to get the same result.
> 
> My aim ISNT to sound exactly like Hans Zimmer. Its to take these elements, these ingredients he has added to the vocabulary of music and see where I can take them. Look at Cinesamples Cinebrass Pro, the 12 horns and Monster Low brass....super Hans Zimmer inception sounding (maybe even literally). They are some of my favourite patches, because I push a key and I hear an amazing texture which was popularised by Hans. Now when I use the Monster low patch, I am not trying to recreate Inception...my aim is, "Now I have this awesome brass texture how can I use it to achieve my aim". Same with 8dio Epic Drum kit, 10 drummers recorded live together sounds awesome, but you dont get quite the same sound with 10 individual drum patches loaded, air moves differently in the room in that regard. Now when I load up the Epic Drum Kit, my aim isnt to re-create Man Of Steel, its "ok where can we take this awesome concept"
> 
> So yes you can analyse and emulate his scores all you want and from what I see they are mostly accurate too. But I want to do the COMPLETE OPPOSITE. I wan't to take the techniques and vocabulary he brings the the language and take it places he didn't think of. Thats why I wanted Hans Zimmer strings to be more Zimmery. Like I say I come from a production first standpoint, I understand that people playing divisi live in a room is better than with samples, I get that 10 individual drum samples doesnt sounds as impressive as 10 recorded in one room. I wanted Hans Zimmer. So I could see how non Hans Zimmer I could make it.
> 
> -DJ



You confuse the point of the Behind the Score videos. I don't spend dozens of hours creating each and every one of those to just take everything in a literal way and go around imitating composers. They are all learning experiences. Understanding how different people do the same thing, telling stories with music. It exposes me to things I like, things I don't like, things I would change, some things get added to my pool of influence, and those concepts end up being combined, shifted, and altered into new ideas. I know your goal is to take the concepts and run with them, that's exactly what I'm trying to do, but in a different way.

That's my way of learning and becoming more familiar with this world, and I learn tons from each. I make the sessions public so people can do the same thing themselves and hopefully take something away and use their own individual voice and creativity to do something with those concepts.

In my opinion, the point of Hans Zimmer Strings is to bring something new to the table, that's why Hans did it. If you want just another string library, go to Metropolis Ark 1, as you said, it has that sound. I heard in the walkthrough that this wasn't going to the "Hans Zimmer Legacy" library. That would be great and all, but I'm more interested in stuff that's new. You can already get a bombastically huge sound with libs like Ark, Majestica, Jaeger, the list goes on. But getting that amount of players to play that quiet, it becomes something completely different than anything Albion V could provide. It becomes soft but at the same time strong and bold, and as I said, I deffinetely think you can achieve that classic Hans sound (Pirates, Inception) if you really put your mind to it. It's a learning curve, but the stuff is there. Again, it's about what you do with it.

The things you mentioned, layered cellos and basses, that's something you can do manually w/ HZS, Met Ark, etc. I understand your view on divisi and actually really like it. Hans' writing sometimes hops up to 4 different divisi voices though, so they would have to program everything for each of those, and including legato, the library would end up being more than a terabyte versus 183GB, and I'm sure they could do that, but it might take more than six years and far more development than it took for this, which seems to have been pretty intense. I think possibly fully realistic divisi sampling could be the next step in the sampling world to achieve further realism. Who knows?!

Our perception of many things is subjective, including samples. We all have different preferences, and use them in slightly different ways. There's no way to satisfy absolutely everyone. Anyways, I totally respect and understand your viewpoint on what you think the library should be. I don't think theres anything wrong with all of us having different opinions and thoughts. Imagine if we all just agreed on everything, there wouldn't be nearly as many fresh and creative ideas.


----------



## Saxer

@Daniel James
Isn't it possible that you didn't expect Hans Zimmer style but your own picture of it?
We all know how deep you are into epic music and loud music and loud epic music and extreme loud music that's very epic. That's your style and you are great in it! And all the scores of Hans you mentioned were the epic ones and especially the epic parts in it. Maybe it's just a little blindness on the non-epic eye? Just a little?


----------



## Soundhound

As a guitarist I hear you clearly! The number of pedals and amps and strings and compressors and drives that get sold to people hoping it will make them play like Robben Ford or Larry Carlton or Hendrix or Duane Allman is incalculable. As guitarists say, it's all in the fingers. So too with sample libraries. It's all in what you do with the tools. But I don't think Daniel wanted a library to make him sound like HZ, as he's said here again and again.



Mike Fox said:


> Of course you won't sound exactly like JP, even with all the same gear. I'm also a guitarist, so we both know that there other factors at play than just the equipment we use. However, how much closer are you going to get to JP's tone by using the same gear, as opposed to using a Crate practice amp and a Metal Zone distortion pedal (there's a reason signature amps, and guitars are made)? Furthermore, If JP's custom Mark IV amp only had a slight overdrive channel, instead of bombastic gain that JP is known for, how dissapointed do you think you would be when you realized it? Sure, the amp has one of the most beautiful drive channels, but good luck playing the stuff that JP is known for.


----------



## gyprock

I pick up my Jimmy Hendrix signature Stratocaster and immediately play and sound like him. Likewise with my Larry Carlton Gibson 335 and my George Benson Ibanez. I can charge 3 times the amount for a session because the studio is getting 3 guitarists. Doesn’t everyone do that?

To get back to topic, I can’t wait for Spitfire to release John Williams strings.


----------



## Mike Fox

Soundhound said:


> As a guitarist I hear you clearly! The number of pedals and amps and strings and compressors and drives that get sold to people hoping it will make them play like Robben Ford or Larry Carlton or Hendrix or Duane Allman is incalculable. As guitarists say, it's all in the fingers. So too with sample libraries. It's all in what you do with the tools. But I don't think Daniel wanted a library to make him sound like HZ, as he's said here again and again.



I'm not saying that Daniel wants to sound like HZ, so maybe I didn't illustrate my point well enough. Let's say I love Eddie Van Halen's amp tone, and I want to achieve that tone by buying a custom 5150. I have my own playing style, but want to incorporate that tone I love so much with my own style. Well, what the hell am I supposed to do when I learn that the amp only has a mild drive channel, and lacks the over the top, saturated gain structure that EVH is known for?

I'm fortunate enough to own an EVH Stealth. It's the exact same amp Eddie uses on tour. Does it make me sound exactly like EVH? Hell no, but It's so easy to fetch those classic EVH tones with it, and the best part is that I can play and compose my own music, and I don't sound like EVH. Just because the sound/tone is there, doesn't mean the copycat style automatically comes with it.


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## Rctec

Consona said:


> Thx for info. This sample libs game is far too expensive for me, should have studied pencil drawing instead.
> 
> But to comment on that remake, this is the exactly of what I'm talking about. Go listen to the original MoS soundtrack, the sound of those drums is actually very different to all those libraries. The space, the air around those drums, it's all missing here. The MoS stuff is recorded, EQed and compressed very differently. There's this _Man of Steel Complete Motion Picture Score_ with the "Action Drums Suite" track. Totally naked percs track. Go compare that. Really different sound... @Puzzlefactory





Consona said:


> Thx for info. This sample libs game is far too expensive for me, should have studied pencil drawing instead.
> 
> But to comment on that remake, this is the exactly of what I'm talking about. Go listen to the original MoS soundtrack, the sound of those drums is actually very different to all those libraries. The space, the air around those drums, it's all missing here. The MoS stuff is recorded, EQed and compressed very differently. There's this _Man of Steel Complete Motion Picture Score_ with the "Action Drums Suite" track. Totally naked percs track. Go compare that. Really different sound... @Puzzlefactory




Ok. Which way do you want me to go? DANIEL wants me to go backwards, which is exactly what that percussion library represents. This was an attempt to re-do the big Drums we used in the past(!) on things like “Gladiator” or “Batman Begins”, because I thought we where Done with that. That, by it’s nature, makes it quite narrow, but very specific to that style of music...
“MOS” and “BvS” was the future, i don’t think those movies where even out yet, or written yet, so it wasn’t my ‘sound’ yet. And if you can’t get the big action “Batman” hits out of what we did (Alan or my mixes - which are processed to fuck) or the beginnings of “MoS” out of JunkieXl and Steve Lipson’s mixes ( because that’s where Junkie developed the “MoS” sound) - I can only say that this proves my point. 

We gave you the same sounds and tools I used. In fact, unless you are listenening to the movies in surround off Blu Ray or have a cinema with Dolby surround handy, you have more of the sound available than the normal stereo you’d hear on a cd.

And I gave Urs Heckmann all the Zebra2 sounds that Howie and I had done for those old movies for free. I don’t work, get paid beyond the odd free update from Urs. I just think he does incredible work and it was my way of finishing a sonic chapter in my life by letting the sounds escape the nest, so to speak.

So if you can’t get a fffuckinglymassiveblowouttyeconesofanycinema sound in the world with those, it’s not the fault of the samples we gave you.

So now, explain to me Exactly what you’re doing, how you’re doing it and why it’s not working?!?

...But that’s why I want to go FORWARDS. Make tools for Music that hasn’t been written yet. Because if I give you the old ‘Epic’ stuff, you’re still under the impression that it’s not big, loud, edgy, epic, punchy enough.

But you got to learn the basics of the process, at least... in “MoS” the Drums are compressed and eq’d and mastered again after the track was written. In the mix. And again on the dub stage. You can’t do a post-production mastering process that is appropriate for a piece of music until the Music is written - and surrounded by the sound-fx. It doesn’t say on the “Spitfire” box that it comes with a free Alan Meyerson to post-produce your tracks after you’ve written them.

You know, sometimes you give all the pretty clothes to an emperor and he just doesn’t know how to wear them....


----------



## bvaughn0402

Mike Fox said:


> Of course you won't sound exactly like JP...



All true, and I don't disagree.

I got his gear because I believe it is 1) quality, and 2) it should get me close to "my sound."

There is so much to sounding like JP, not just fingers, but yes that. There is also phrasing, vibrato, how he thinks harmonically, vibrato, influences, etc.

So, to me it is similar to HZ. I like his sound, and I would expect using his players and space, it should get me close to it. But I would think nothing will make me sound like him unless they were prerecorded wav files he recorded. Like JP, you have his phrasing, harmonic approach, influences, etc.

Not to mention, unless I'm mistaken, more often than not he uses actual string sections for the final product.

So that is starting to get more like me using a Kontakt guitar library to sound like JP.


----------



## Rctec

DarkestShadow said:


> Of course, the composition changes how the instrument sounds like BUT the instruments used also change how the compositon sounds like. Every instrument (or ensembles and their recordings) has another character. And there are sounds that are closer to HZ's sound and others that are further away. Of course you have to work with a library a certain way to get a certain but there are always libraries that make it harder or easier to get there.
> Here for example is Time (as I remember it haha) on the piano Hans used in the score... and then the same melody on another pianos.
> http://picosong.com/wekmF/
> The feeling and sonic meaning of the composition changes dramatically, in my view...
> 
> What sounds you use matters, not just how you use them.
> 
> Random rant of the day.


That’s the good old “Malsmsjö”...


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## rottoy

Speaking of the Malmsjö, the timbre of the newly released Cinepiano (they sampled a Steinway) reminds me of the wonderful set of samples that Hans Adamson captured with the Malmsjö.


(P.S. I'm not a shill.)


----------



## Mike Fox

bvaughn0402 said:


> All true, and I don't disagree.
> 
> I got his gear because I believe it is 1) quality, and 2) it should get me close to "my sound."
> 
> There is so much to sounding like JP, not just fingers, but yes that. There is also phrasing, vibrato, how he thinks harmonically, vibrato, influences, etc.
> 
> So, to me it is similar to HZ. I like his sound, and I would expect using his players and space, it should get me close to it. But I would think nothing will make me sound like him unless they were prerecorded wav files he recorded. Like JP, you have his phrasing, harmonic approach, influences, etc.
> 
> Not to mention, unless I'm mistaken, more often than not he uses actual string sections for the final product.
> 
> So that is starting to get more like me using a Kontakt guitar library to sound like JP.


But you know that the Mark V packs a mean punch (just as you expect it to), and you don't have to do much to achieve it. Strum a basic power chord, and feel the earth shake, right? It seems like HZ strings should have had the same effect. Press a key and watch the mountains crumble. You've got 344 players! Why the hell not?! 

Btw, I will add that I really like the sound of this library. It is beautiful. So I'm sorry If I come aross as a troll or a hater. It's more of the concept that has thrown me off guard. I honestly don't know where most people stand with HZ strings right now. I just hope that most people who purchased it are happy.


----------



## Daniel James

Rctec said:


> Ok. Which way do you want me to go? DANIEL wants me to go backwards, which is exactly what that percussion library represents. This was an attempt to re-do the big Drums we used in the past(!) on things like “Gladiator” or “Batman Begins”, because I thought we where Done with that. That, by it’s nature, makes it quite narrow, but very specific to that style of music...
> “MOS” and “BvS” was the future, i don’t think those movies where even out yet, or written yet, so it wasn’t my ‘sound’ yet. And if you can’t get the big action “Batman” hits out of what we did (Alan or my mixes - which are processed to fuck) or the beginnings of “MoS” out of JunkieXl and Steve Lipson’s mixes ( because that’s where Junkie developed the “MoS” sound) - I can only say that this proves my point.
> 
> We gave you the same sounds and tools I used. In fact, unless you are listenening to the movies in surround off Blu Ray or have a cinema with Dolby surround handy, you have more of the sound available than the normal stereo you’d hear on a cd.
> 
> And I gave Urs Heckmann all the Zebra2 sounds that Howie and I had done for those old movies for free. I don’t work, get paid beyond the odd free update from Urs. I just think he does incredible work and it was my way of finishing a sonic chapter in my life by letting the sounds escape the nest, so to speak.
> 
> So if you can’t get a fffuckinglymassiveblowouttyeconesofanycinema sound in the world with those, it’s not the fault of the samples we gave you.
> 
> So now, explain to me Exactly what you’re doing, how you’re doing it and why it’s not working?!?
> 
> ...But that’s why I want to go FORWARDS. Make tools for Music that hasn’t been written yet. Because if I give you the old ‘Epic’ stuff, you’re still under the impression that it’s not big, loud, edgy, epic, punchy enough.
> 
> But you got to learn the basics of the process, at least... in “MoS” the Drums are compressed and eq’d and mastered again after the track was written. In the mix. And again on the dub stage. You can’t do a post-production mastering process that is appropriate for a piece of music until the Music is written - and surrounded by the sound-fx. It doesn’t say on the “Spitfire” box that it comes with a free Alan Meyerson to post-produce your tracks after you’ve written them.
> 
> You know, sometimes you give all the pretty clothes to an emperor and he just doesn’t know how to wear them....



You can go in whichever direction you want mate. As you do. I am saying I wanted the legacy because to me that is what the brand Hans Zimmer means. I get that you dont see the brand that way and I have said multiple times I get that the misunderstanding is on me. I have to reshape what brand Hans Zimmer means in my head before buying anything with brand Zimmer on it.

I can get fucking loud with the samples I already have. Thats not the problem. I was saying I was hoping the strings would be a collection of samples that got me to what I expected from brand Zimmer as quickly and painlessly as possible. It is a complex beast of course I was looking for the ultimate Hans Zimmer curation and a exhibition of all the things you already brought to the table. It doesn't matter if you already used it. The old classical masters have already used bass cello viola violin set ups at length but we still use them and we still take them in different directions. You can hear in your cues from Gladiator techniques and inspiration from Holst...but you didn't just play Holst, you took what he did and did Hans Zimmer with it and I love the result. THAT is what I want, like it or not mate you are a catalyst for some people, you brought them into the fold and showed how you can take the old and create greatness, it pains me that when I crave to do something similar its looked down upon as reaching into the past or at worst not wanting to innovate. Innovation has to be built on something that proceeds it. I wanted to see where I can take the concepts you have discarded and go places you wouldn't dream, or even dare.

So yes I can make music sound like Hans Zimmer if I wanted to already, I don't have an issue attaining certain sounds. Its just... I don't want my music to sound like you, but I wouldn't mind using some of your ingredients to make my own pie.

At the end of the day, what do I know. Clearly people dig what you created. I just have ideas of things I want to do. Most suck. But here we are.

-DJ


----------



## synergy543

Hans has always inspired me as being a musical chameleon rather than the one-trick pony people often view him as. This is a guy that did "Video Killed the Radio Star", then Lion King, Batman, Sherlock Holmes, DaVinci, Interstellar, etc. How are all these even remotely similar? I'd never have guessed they were from the same person. If Hans has one most-important single skill, its that can adapt and change. He just doesn't grow old, just more interesting each time.


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## Geoff Grace

Rctec said:


> But you got to learn the basics of the process, at least... in “MoS” the Drums are compressed and eq’d and mastered again after the track was written. In the mix. And again on the dub stage. You can’t do a post-production mastering process that is appropriate for a piece of music until the Music is written - and surrounded by the sound-fx. It doesn’t say on the “Spitfire” box that it comes with a free Alan Meyerson to post-produce your tracks after you’ve written them.


Yes, this is very important. One problem with the DIY approach that's so prevalent today is the lack of professional mixing and mastering enjoyed by studio teams. I've been lucky enough at points to have access to people with that advanced skillset and it's no small piece of the puzzle at all!

Best,

Geoff


----------



## tehreal

You think this thread is controversial, just wait until Jerry Goldsmith Panpipes is released.


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## fish_hoof

Just so i dont feel left out here lol but honestly... for me... love the interface. My job also has me writing music weekly for our church and being the guy to produce videos and write music to them. Downloding this on Wed and getting it installed and looked at for the first time on Thursday night, i was worried about learning something new new, esepcially with Easter coming but i was surprised how fast i could achieve some great sounds. For some reason, i liked the ability to explore... felt like it unlocked creativity for me. Its like when i noticed all the mic positions kind of tucked away, it was like finding gold! Thats just me though. 

I do beleive this library is so different than anything ive used (and i own a ton) and I think thats a very good thing... because for me, it allows me to achieve new stuff, unlock creativity and hopefully something sonically much different than two people who own the same sample library. Two people using HZS library can both achieve things wildly different. 

I just want to sound like me and hopefully, emotionally impact people because of it. I believe this library does this and from feedback ive received from services this weekend, i think its a positive step in the right direction. Look forward to more time with it. 

Thank you all for the great perspectives. Much love.


----------



## ThomasNL

synergy543 said:


> Hans has always inspired me as being a musical chameleon rather than the one-trick pony people often view him as. This is a guy that did "Video Killed the Radio Star", then Lion King, Batman, Sherlock Holmes, DaVinci, Interstellar, etc. How are all these even remotely similar? I'd never have guessed they were from the same person. If Hans has one most-important single skill, its that can adapt and change. He just doesn't grow old, just more interesting each time.



And i think that is exactly what a filmcomposer should be. Someone who can adept to every situation and find out what the best possible music is for the movie.

And Daniel, i think the reason why Hans wasn't "looked down upon" because of using older composers as inspiration is because it was used in the biggest triple a films in the world  and if i recall correctly, there has been enough discussion about the similarities between Gladiator and the Planets, so it is always the struggle of a composer.

As long as you feel like you are making music that is completely you, it doesn't matter what other people think and what sounds or styles you used.

Love this thread, some nice discussions here


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

rottoy said:


> Speaking of the Malmsjö, the timbre of the newly released Cinepiano (they sampled a Steinway) reminds me of the wonderful set of samples that Hans Adamson captured with the Malmsjö.
> 
> 
> (P.S. I'm not a shill.)



Love the sound! - although I'm missing "bell-like" qualities to compare it with the Malmsjö.


Btw: I almost go a heart-attack when I got the message "rctec quoted you in a post".


----------



## n9n9n9

I like the sound and I like the library so far. I'm finding the legatos too buggy to use (weird glitches and even some wrong notes or passing notes) and the load times are not handled very well... I have a very, very fast SSD attached directly to USB-C and it can still take a while to load a new mic or instrument... but while it is loading I get bizarre results: clipped notes sometimes, no sound sometimes and hung notes sometimes.

I gotta say it: between the un-hackability of this library (meaning no MPE, polyphonic aftertouch stuff) the CPU performance and the weird results I would have much preferred that HZ Strings was in Kontakt. Between this and Phobos I feel like Spitfire's custom plugins are not what I want. I will use this and like it but I'm really not sure that I would buy again.


----------



## Craig Sharmat

Might as well throw in my 2 cents. I don't care if a library is called "Strings of the Bubonic Plague" If it sounds good and inspires why is that not good enough.


----------



## Daniel James

Craig Sharmat said:


> Might as well throw in my 2 cents. I don't care if a library is called "Strings of the Bubonic Plague" If it sounds good and inspires why is that not good enough.



Someone put it well on my Youtube....Its like buying a library called METALLICA GUITARS and it consisting of soft acoustic guitars. I am sure it would be awesome but there is a good chance you wanted/expected something a little different.

-DJ


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## jtnyc

synergy543 said:


> This is a guy that did "Video Killed the Radio Star



Huh?


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

jtnyc said:


> Huh?


Yes, he also worked for the FBI as an investigator. That video is locked up since a long time... and it ain't comin' out any time soon.


----------



## ism

Daniel James said:


> ... Innovation has to be built on something that proceeds it. I wanted to see where I can take the concepts you have discarded and go places you wouldn't dream, or even dare.
> 
> -DJ



But the cool think here is that you're already doing it.

Grasping a few things a bit better from the last few pages of this thread (which has turned out to be quite interesting after a rough start), I think I see you point better.


One of the upsides to this whole thread/borderline-riot is that its spurred me to go back and re-listen to both HZ tracks and DJ tracks. And yeah, I think your tracks already passed from sounding from sounding Zimmeresque (in the sense you articulate) to sounding Zimmeresque-only-more so. Which is perhaps to say Daniel-James-esque.

And after your Albion 1 video (which - in my complete naivety of the hazards of spitfire libraries addiction - convinced me to buy it), I wouldn't have though you could go more epic. Then came your you Icini video. Then ... well I could go on ... it's been fun to watch, and who even know there were so many different colours of bombastic?

In fact there's already a certain type of track that I'm finding myself starting to think of as James-seque. Partly this is owing to your videos, perhaps aided but the fact that the scores that form my sense of the Zimmeresque are things like Black Hawk Down, the Thin Red Line, and now Dunkirk (as a rule, I avoid batman movies whenever possible, regardless of who scores them, so Hans shouldn't take their omission personally) and so I use the term "Zimmeresque" for something else. And, now that I think of it, its probably also owes in part to the weeks where one of your tracks (that I particularly like) was playing constantly on here the CBC (I think it was during the olympics).


So when you swap out Jaeger for HZS in the video - HZS really does sound more Zimmeresque to me (in my own sense of the Zimmeresque. But can see how it also sounds less James-esque.


Where I (respectfully) must disagree with you is when you argued that Zimmer sound is obvious one thing - although I gather this might be true in a particular sector of the industry. And I think you conflated Spitfire marketing (which Spitfire and Hans in their collaboration can control) with the "Hans Zimmer brand" (which in this sense it's been used here, even Hans himself has absolutely no control over) which had some unfortunate consequences. Although hopefully the air has been cleared enough on this and we all understand each other enough to not need to dwell on it. (And can keep talking about music instead).


In any event, its all brilliant. And I look forward to new work - with or without HZS - from yourself, Ashton and Hans.


(Although if you ever do find a way to use HZS in a DJ piece - I'd be excited to see the video).


----------



## ism

Just thinking that I once complemented a composer on sounding Zimmeresque on a particular (not particularly bombastic) piece of music. I think only now do I understand the look I got in return.


----------



## synergy543

jtnyc said:


> Huh?


Isn't this Hans (in front of the Moog) in the Video Killed the Radio Star video?



The music video for "Video Killed the Radio Star", written, directed and edited by Australian Russell Mulcahy,[59][60] was produced on a budget of $50,000.[3]....[59] Hans Zimmer can be briefly seen wearing black playing a keyboard,[61]


----------



## ka00

Daniel James said:


> I wanted to see where I can take the concepts you have discarded and go places you wouldn't dream, or even dare.



I’m all for unvarnished truths, but isn’t this a bit like saying, “Hans, how dare you go outside the box you created, when I needed you to give me what was inside that box so that _I_ could dare to go outside that box?”

It feels like telling a man exactly where to stand, so that when you stand on his shoulders you’re right where you wanted to be.

I appreciate your review of the library, pointing out it’s quirks and bugs, it was very informative. But I don’t think Hans owes anyone the combination to the Inception safe inside his head.


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## Daniel James

ka00 said:


> I’m all for unvarnished truths, but isn’t this a bit like saying, “Hans, how dare you go outside the box you created, when I needed you to give me what was inside that box so that _I_ could dare to go outside that box?”
> 
> It feels like telling a man exactly where to stand, so that when you stand on his shoulders you’re right where you wanted to be.
> 
> I appreciate your review of the library, pointing out it’s quirks and bugs, it was very informative. But I don’t think Hans owes anyone the combination to the Inception safe inside his head.



I never implied he owed anything. A bit of projecting there. I have said many times, I just (wrongfully) assumed a library with Hans Zimmer on the box would sound like Hans Zimmer. I wont be the last to make the error (if some of the messages of agreement I received after my vid from people who thought similar) and I have made my thoughts on this clear many times. I'm not telling anyone what they have to do at all.

-DJ


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## jtnyc

synergy543 said:


> Isn't this Hans (in front of the Moog) in the Video Killed the Radio Star video?
> 
> 
> 
> The music video for "Video Killed the Radio Star", written, directed and edited by Australian Russell Mulcahy,[59][60] was produced on a budget of $50,000.[3]....[59] Hans Zimmer can be briefly seen wearing black playing a keyboard,[61]



I never knew he was in the video. That's cool. Iconic track. I've never seen or heard Hans mentioned in any of the production, writing or performing credits, so I'm sure he "did" Video Killed the Radio Star. If your familiar with his playing, it's obvious Geoff Downes wrote and played those keyboard parts.


----------



## The Darris

Daniel James said:


> I just (wrongfully) assumed a library with Hans Zimmer on the box _would sound like Hans Zimmer._



Wrongfully yes, glad you feel that way but with that last sentence, it seems more ridiculous considering he used these damn samples on his last huge Oscar Nominated film score. So, yeah. It most definitely SOUNDS LIKE ZIMMER!!! Haha.


----------



## Craig Sharmat

Daniel James said:


> Someone put it well on my Youtube....Its like buying a library called METALLICA GUITARS and it consisting of soft acoustic guitars. I am sure it would be awesome but there is a good chance you wanted/expected something a little different.
> 
> -DJ



Yes of course except there would have been a walkthrough showing that it was acoustic guitars.
The walkthrough for HZS was pretty clear, it was not going to be a particularly agile library.

That said you did a 5 hour plus video, I didn't see it but did you get up to go to the bathroom, eat a pizza or the like?
if not i'm impressed with with your general fortitude. You have the VI composer community talking about the length of the vid so everyone knows who you are, if they didn't already, and this thread keeps getting bumped, most likely very good for Spitfire...it's a Win Win. Whatever the motivation for all parties I have no problem bumping the thread further... so have at it...


----------



## ism

The Darris said:


> Wrongfully yes, glad you feel that way but with that last sentence, it seems more ridiculous considering he used these damn samples on his last huge Oscar Nominated film score. So, yeah. It most definitely SOUNDS LIKE ZIMMER!!! Haha.



Daniel is using "Hans Zimmer" as in "Hans Zimmer" the particular brand, rather than Hans Zimmer the composer. Which is very confusing on a thread that actually includes Hans, as in Hans Zimmer the actual, real person. (Although he's being extraordinarily gracious - I mean what does it take to get Hans Zimmer to call you a twat these days - so maybe this is another version of "Hans Zimmer" who is no longer the "Hans Zimmer" of last week .

(Fun fact - in her translator's introduction to Derrida's "Of grammatology", Spivak discusses the philosophical distinctions between "Jaques Derrida" the actually person and "Jaques Derrida" the signifier of the philosophical texts that just happen to be written by Jaques Derrida the actual person as they function in the social fabric of human context ...etc)

I think It would be really helpful to find a more precise way to get our Hans Zimmers signifiers straight, respecting that there are many, many concepts of the Zimmeresque, none of with do can ever fully do justice to the full scope of the Zimmer ouuvre, much less Zimmer the composer. Also, it strikes me as kind of disrespectful to a person to use the name to mean something else other than themselves like, right in front of them. (Although I'm sure Daniel means no disrespect).



Its just that it feels we've been around this circle many times already - and while Spivak and Derrida do have lots and lots of completely fascinating things to say about how this is a fundament ambiguity of meaning and signification in the very nature of human existence, it would be great if we could just be clear on our Zimmers and Zimmersquenesses and not to have to deal with Derrida here at all.


----------



## Drundfunk

I feel like the discussion goes in circles at this point and only revolves about the expectation you have when talking about the Hans Zimmer brand. Some people associate epic and huge with it and some associate new and different with it. To me it seems like both parties have valid arguments and I personally simply view the library in a different light now after reading Mr. Zimmer's reply (still a lot of money tho). At this point I'm personally more interested in the choice of not having all available articulations for every section or seating. Is this on purpose and if yes what is the design choice behind it? Or went there something wrong with the recordings and so they ditched it? I'm just curious....


----------



## Jay Panikkar

@Daniel James
What do you think about the dynamic range of HZS (in terms of velocity layers) across articulations? According to the official HZS page, there are 205501 samples total. If you take into account the 26 mics available, then there are ~7903 samples per mic. These ~7903 samples are then spread across 5 sections of violins, 2 of violas, 5 of cellos and 1 of double basses which means that there are only ~608 samples per mic per section. 

It seems that most of the actual content is limited to 1–2 dynamic layers. For example, the 60 Violins section consist of Short, Pizzicato Bartok, Soft Col Legno, Long, Super Sul Pont, Super Flautando, Soft CS, Col Legno Tratto, Legato and FX patches. Of these 10 articulations, 7 are either soft or one-off articulations with no actual dynamic range. 

That's not a lot of "stuff" given the cost of the library, imo.


----------



## RiffWraith

Daniel James said:


> Someone put it well on my Youtube....Its like buying a library called METALLICA GUITARS and it consisting of soft acoustic guitars. I am sure it would be awesome but there is a good chance you wanted/expected something a little different.



You know Daniel, I see where you are coming from. I really do. But I see the other side as well.

I guess the Q here for me is this: forgetting - just for a moment - what HZS sounds like straight out of the box (I don't think any lib was really meant to be used that way anyway).... can you get the strings to sound like they belong in a Zimmer cue? And if yes... is it about the same level of difficulty, easier, or more difficult, as opposed to other string libs? Genuinely curious...


----------



## markleake

novaburst said:


> Its the way HZ plays his chords and composes his music that give the HZ sound in that respect any instrument will do.
> 
> If these strings were used in a movie then you will need to copy that very same movie to have the same sound.
> 
> The idea of these strings is to have your own sound with a HZ tool and that was it, its just to take your creative level higher, or to get more creative with something that HZ would use, he is creative because he is unconventional
> and these strings are unconventional. but being different or using the same product as someone does not mean you will sound like them unless you copy there music then people will say oh that sounds like HZ
> 
> If HZ name is on the product it means he had something to do with the development of it, so yes of course his name is going to be all over it after all he is now a recognized developer and now giving us the same type of tools he uses but not to sound like him, just to follow in his direction of the unusual.


Of course I understand this, yes. And I don't disagree with the core of what you are saying - it's similar to what you said before. But I think there is a lot more to it than this. I can't just say "ho hum" this is just another strings library, a mix of more ordinary styles and an advancement on Albion V maybe, and be OK with that. I'm not. If I were to buy the product (I haven't) I would be expecting something that gets me more easily to the point of being able to produce the well known Zimmer sounds.

The name on the product has to mean something. And I know it does... it just seems that to some people, like me, that it adds some expectations, while for others it doesn't so much. Or it does, but they are maybe quicker than I am, so they understand straight up that the Zimmer sound isn't really what you think it is.

Now that Hans himself has explained the thinking behind the library, and why it is what it is, so of course I can understand that now. Really, the library does sound unique and sometimes very beautiful. I knew before release the library was softer in style than I expected. But I am not so experienced and know all the ins and outs of composer sounds (Hans included) and their approach to things for me to realise that what you get with the library is something so different than what you would expect. I can respect that, but I am still a little surprised.

From the comments on the forum before release, it was clear there were at least some people who had expectations that were very different on HZS. For example the thread where one person was considering it as their main strings library and replacement for SCS. We told him/her it wouldn't be such a good option for that, but it took a lot of posts from a lot of different people to convince them of that, and even then I don't think they were really convinced. Sure, if they like the library, then they can buy it, but having such different expectations seems to be what this library has generated in a lot of people.

To be clear, I am not saying that Spitfire marketed it wrong, I am just saying that there was always going to be plenty of people who expected something different from a Hans Zimmer branded library.

@gyprock. I'm hoping Spitfire releases John Williams Strings, Brass, Woods, and darn it, we'll just throw Johnny himself in for free also.


----------



## Brian Nowak

The joy of being incredibly successful is that you get to do whatever you want to do.

The pain of being incredibly successful is that people have different ideas about what it is that you do, and what your "brand" entails. And if you put your name on stuff, that's what it is. It's a brand. You don't have to like it. But that's what happens in the market. People see your name - it immediately conjures up ideas about what it "should" be like.

The problem we have here is that Mr. Zimmer wants to create great products that follow his artistic sensibilities, and invariably this will cause brand identity confusion on the side of the consumer. Because the actions of said artist fly in the face of creating a brand.

Basically, what I have gathered here is that a product with the name Hans Zimmer on it will be a product that Hans Zimmer felt comfortable being involved in the creation of, and it will fit his sensibilities at the time of its creation. It does not mean that the product will reflect any preconceived notions that I have about Hans Zimmer, his sounds in previous time periods, or is an attempt to capture any "period" of his compositional life.

The other thing I have gathered is that I can only hope one day somebody is really disappointed in Spitfire Presents Brian Nowak Kazoo Choir.


----------



## markleake

Brian Nowak said:


> one day somebody is really disappointed in Spitfire Presents Brian Nowak Kazoo Choir.


Didn't they get close to that with the recorder sections in Albion 2 Loegria?


----------



## Brian Nowak

markleake said:


> Didn't they get close to that with the recorder sections in Albion 2 Loegria?



But that wasn't Spitfire Presents _BRIAN NOWAK KAZOO CHOIR_, good sir.


----------



## NoamL

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> On one side, for some people, the name, the vibe of the marketing and the pricing seem to suggest "the ultimate cinematic string library". While in reality, it's actually a highly idiosyncratic, maverick library. *Depending on your viewpoint and expectations, "Hans Zimmer" can stand for either.*



This is really well summarized and I feel the same. I enjoyed Hans's, Daniel's and Ashton's long posts too.

The only thing I want to add is, there's some people defending both ideas simultaneously. The idea that HZS brings a "whole new sound" but that you can _also_ recreate any 2000s-definition-of-"epic" score such as _Dead Man's Chest_ if you just "put your mind to it." I don't think this library can do everything.

If I had to recreate "the Pirates strings sound" I'd do it like this: layer 1 would be Adventure Strings, or Jaeger, or CSS (or maybe Berlin Strings with close mics only). Then double all strings behind with Symphobia (or try Metropolis Ark 1 instead?). And finally, double all basslines with gnarly synth bass!!  I wouldn't use HZS for "that classic Hans sound" because having 80 cellos simultaneously doesn't get me any closer. In fact you can see videos of the scoring sessions for Pirates 2 on Youtube and judge for yourself whether the orchestral setup looks anything like HZS.


----------



## Hat_Tricky

Sounds like HZ Strings is a Berlioz library. Personally, I wish i could afford HZ strings - hearing what harmonics, transients, and unexpected sounds a huuuuge number of an instrument can achieve (at low volumes in particular) is quite intriguing to me, and has been for years.


----------



## Replicant

I really don't understand the complaining around this release and I don't have time to read 13 pages of stuff, but my 2 cents. Also, disclaimer: I don't even own any spitfire products.

Speaking to the "I am disappoint" camp:

Did you guys not watch any of the walkthroughs and stuff they put out at least a whole MONTH before this thing dropped?

Like, even though I found the demo tracks unimpressive personally, the strings themselves sound good to me, but not "Oh yeah, this is worth 800 bucks" good.

I don't mean to offend with this, but I'm having difficulty voicing this in a way that doesn't sound snide: The rage here seems to be that people dropped an exorbitant amount of money on something because of the name attached to it, and possibly because they have too much money to burn on samples, and then were disappointed because the product didn't match the expectations that purely existed in their mind and weren't based on anything tangible beforehand.

It's also strikes me that a lot of people who are mad, also seem to admit to owning a ton of sample libraries. Now I get that reviewing them as Daniel does is part of what you do, but at a certain point, just for your own sake, I think you need to ask yourself "Do I really need yet another damn string library?" When you've spent thousands of dollars on them and own every major release on the market already? It's like, at a certain point, you've just gotta except that the next release probably isn't going to offer much more than what you have.

So far as I can tell, HZS works as it was advertised, the demonstrations Spitfire put out were enough to showcase what it was all about, and if you bought it without paying close attention to these demos — that's your fault.


----------



## prodigalson

just to add another perspective to this discussion, for me a major element of the HZ string sound is actually not in how loud or aggressive it can be but more about how the players instinctively play when playing his material either intuitively or through direction. i.e. the amount of vibrato, the bow pressure etc etc. in addition to the combined sonic characteristics of engineering, mic choice, room characteristics. When I first pulled up one of the softer (and apparently controversial) articulations and played an open Gminor chord I was struck with how similar the sound was with the track 'Eptesicus' from Batman Begins. And no, not just because of the hall but the tone, the amount of vibrato, the cumulative bow pressure and lack thereof etc.

I would posit that an awareness of the project, the fact that Gavin Greenaway was conducting, that Geoff Foster was engineering inspired the players to perform just a little differently than they would have even in Spitfire Symphonic Strings and this in combination with the mics and mixing, to me, actually gives me more of the HZ sound than an aggressive tight short that can play "16ths at 140" just like any other library.


----------



## ism

But Daniel has articulated - at length and repeatedly - what precisely he means by 'sounding like Hans Zimmer" and the 'Hans Zimmer Brand' and so forth. And this is totally fair - and in fact I've found it helpful to understand the particular concept of the Zimmeresque he was on about. He was qualify it as the "Zimmer Legacy" sound for a bit, which removed much of the confusion.


The problem is that the signifier "Hans Zimmer" is being used to mean many different things. Or rather many Horizons of Meaning. Which is great for a composer to have his name associated with such an expanse of possible meaning (though inconvenient for marketing purposes). This is why I compose myself - to find horizons of meaning.

And Hans isn't exactly Adam West who's career is destroyed by audiences never being able to get beyond batman (can composer be typecast, is that a thing?).

Where I think this thread became interesting is when these definitions and concepts of the epic and the bombastic and the Zimmeresque and the DanielJames-esque and so on start to be distinguished and clarified a little bit and then to be actually discussed.

I do have a critique I'd offer to share with anyone who thinks they own the signifier of "Hans Zimmer", or that it can only possibly mean one thing (again ... Derrida ... I'll admit that sometimes I turn to French philosophy as a coping mechanism when the internet starts to drive me crazy ... hopefully it will pass soon). It's a feature of meaning and signification and the structure of the human psyche that even Hans Zimmer himself can't own what the "Hans Zimmer brand" (as Daniel puts it) means ... as any typecast actor, or Derrida, or really any sufficiently crazy French philosopher will tell you. Although there's always the possibly of re/inventing horizons ... for instance seeing Dunkirk ... such a phenomenal reinvention or renewal or expansion ... or something ... of (my concept of) the Zimmeresque, I'm not sure never been so amazed by the effectiveness of a soundtrack.


Where Daniel is wrong is his assertion that no once could possible think that anyone buying a library with "Hans Zimmer" in the title could possibly want any other conception of "Hans Zimmer" than the one he wanted (c.f. ~ 4:40:00 on the video). But in fairness, this was not a review, but a hot-wash, first impression, passionate emotional reaction. And the positive thing to take from it is just how passionately so many people are moved by the Horizon of Meaning (sorry, shifting to German philosophy now) created by that particular moment of Zimmmerness. Clearly, for a lot of people, it had a power beyond the combined capacity of Spitfire marketing and Hans himself to contain. Which kind of sucks for Spitfire in that it really has unleashed a lot of hate towards them, including Christian personally, entirely unmerited (and I think that diverse opinions are fine but we should all be stand again discussion turning personal abuse - even Ashton suffered a personal attack on DJs youtube page, totally uncalled for).

But it is kind of cool that even this single, 20 year old fragment of Han's work is more powerful that the most powerful marketing department in the sampling world (and believe me those evil geniuses in Spitfire marketing ... I always seem to find myself buying all kinds of things that there was absolutely no way I was going to ever, conceivable, ever going to buy ... and then thanking them for it ....). I do however think that all the accusations that spitfire marketing here is in any way guilty being misleading is completely without merit. I'm all for jumping on and excoriating deceptive marketing, but I just don't see a case for that here. (On that note, the comparison of Spitfire with 8dio was, in the context it was made, a very low blow indeed).

Of course the great disadvantage Hans has over, say, Bernard Herman (in this, and only this, one, very specific context of branding and marketing a sample library) is that he's not dead. We've had decades to collectively fix the horizon of meaning of Bernard's output, which I imagine must be convenient from a marketing perspective (but *please* no one give them any ideas!).


And since I'm on a philosophical tear, why not a historiographical one? I also think Fawkner would have been completely on Daniel's side of this debate in the sense that 'the past isn't dead and buried, it isn't even past'. Clearly the "Hans Zimmer Sound" - in the Daniel-Jamesian sense of the term - is very much alive and generative in the hands of a very passionate group of people - great art is always bigger than the artist, and there's no way even Hans himself could declare it over, even if he wanted to. Which I don't imagine he would - what I hear Hans saying is more "you really don't need my help with that particular 'Hans Zimmer' Sound. And not "don't do that its passé".

And if there's anyone who doesn't need help in channeling that classic "Hans Zimmer Sound" it's DJ.

I love it when music is this powerful.


----------



## markleake

ism said:


> Which I don't image he - what I hear Hans saying is more "you really don't need my help with that particular 'Hans Zimmer' Sound. And not "don't do that its passé".


But I think he actually did say that last bit even. That's how I read his words here anyway. I know what he means though: Hans has consistently said he doesn't want people to copy, but to go explore their own sound, and you can hear the frustration coming from him when he says this. He wants other people to believe in their own skill and ability to tell a story, emotion, meaning though music. Music is such a wonderful human art, impacting all our lives so deeply, so it is no wonder he wants people to tell their own story with music, rather than repeating his.

I would love to be the fly on the wall to see those awkward moments when a producer/director wants to say to Hans, "can you be more, you know, Zimmerish" but is suffering such cognitive dissonance and doesn't know how to say it. 

Seriously, I wonder if that actually happens?!


----------



## Jeremy Gillam

Perhaps the most “Zimmer-esque” aspect of this library has nothing to do with sonics, but is actually the controversy and intellectual uproar it has caused.


----------



## Geoff Grace

One of the things I love about being a composer is the freedom to move from genre to genre as I move from project to project, and this thread makes me grateful that I still have the anonymity to do that. 

As a consumer, I understand the desire to rely on brand consistency. The last thing I want is for the Coke I ordered to taste like tomato juice. But then again, Coke doesn't care that it always has to taste like Coke. People, on the other hand, may long to break out of the box that made them famous—especially creative people. 

Best,

Geoff


----------



## ism

jrgillam said:


> Perhaps the most “Zimmer-esque” aspect of this library has nothing to do with sonics, but is actually the controversy and intellectual uproar it has caused.



And perhaps the most Daniel-James-esque quality of this thread is the chaos and mayhem it's created! (Which I think was Hans' point i not wanting to disrupt the spirit of Daniel's anarchy, or some such - which I think you have to take as a high complement coming from Hans.  

Or 'honest and unfiltered' if you prefer.


----------



## ism

markleake said:


> But I think he actually did say that last bit even. That's how I read his words here anyway. I know what he means though:



Yeah, but I was arguing that I read comment quite differently from how it seems to have been taken.


----------



## Kyle Preston

Daniel James said:


> I just have ideas of things I want to do



Daniel, I don’t mean this in a snarky or sinister way at all, genuinely. You have an ideal sound you’re trying to craft and you haven’t discovered it yet. Maybe you should MAKE that library instead of trying to buy it.


----------



## Rctec

ism said:


> But Daniel has articulated - at length and repeatedly - what precisely he means by 'sounding like Hans Zimmer" and the 'Hans Zimmer Brand' and so forth. And this is totally fair - and in fact I've found it helpful to understand the particular concept of the Zimmeresque he was on about. He was qualify it as the "Zimmer Legacy" sound for a bit, which removed much of the confusion.
> 
> 
> The problem is that the signifier "Hans Zimmer" is being used to mean many different things. Or rather many Horizons of Meaning. Which is great for a composer to have his name associated with such an expanse of possible meaning (though inconvenient for marketing purposes). This is why I compose myself - to find horizons of meaning.
> 
> And Hans isn't exactly Adam West who's career is destroyed by audiences never being able to get beyond batman (can composer be typecast, is that a thing?).
> 
> Where I think this thread became interesting is when these definitions and concepts of the epic and the bombastic and the Zimmeresque and the DanielJames-esque and so on start to be distinguished and clarified a little bit and then to be actually discussed.
> 
> I do have a critique I'd offer to share with anyone who thinks they own the signifier of "Hans Zimmer", or that it can only possibly mean one thing (again ... Derrida ... I'll admit that sometimes I turn to French philosophy as a coping mechanism when the internet starts to drive me crazy ... hopefully it will pass soon). It's a feature of meaning and signification and the structure of the human psyche that even Hans Zimmer himself can't own what the "Hans Zimmer brand" (as Daniel puts it) means ... as any typecast actor, or Derrida, or really any sufficiently crazy French philosopher will tell you. Although there's always the possibly of re/inventing horizons ... for instance seeing Dunkirk ... such a phenomenal reinvention or renewal or expansion ... or something ... of (my concept of) the Zimmeresque, I'm not sure never been so amazed by the effectiveness of a soundtrack.
> 
> 
> Where Daniel is wrong is his assertion that no once could possible think that anyone buying a library with "Hans Zimmer" in the title could possibly want any other conception of "Hans Zimmer" than the one he wanted (c.f. ~ 4:40:00 on the video). But in fairness, this was not a review, but a hot-wash, first impression, passionate emotional reaction. And the positive thing to take from it is just how passionately so many people are moved by the Horizon of Meaning (sorry, shifting to German philosophy now) created by that particular moment of Zimmmerness. Clearly, for a lot of people, it had a power beyond the combined capacity of Spitfire marketing and Hans himself to contain. Which kind of sucks for Spitfire in that it really has unleashed a lot of hate towards them, including Christian personally, entirely unmerited (and I think that diverse opinions are fine but we should all be stand again discussion turning personal abuse - even Ashton suffered a personal attack on DJs youtube page, totally uncalled for).
> 
> But it is kind of cool that even this single, 20 year old fragment of Han's work is more powerful that the most powerful marketing department in the sampling world (and believe me those evil geniuses in Spitfire marketing ... I always seem to find myself buying all kinds of things that there was absolutely no way I was going to ever, conceivable, ever going to buy ... and then thanking them for it ....). I do however think that all the accusations that spitfire marketing here is in any way guilty being misleading is completely without merit. I'm all for jumping on and excoriating deceptive marketing, but I just don't see a case for that here. (On that note, the comparison of Spitfire with 8dio was, in the context it was made, a very low blow indeed).
> 
> Of course the great disadvantage Hans has over, say, Bernard Herman (in this, and only this, one, very specific context of branding and marketing a sample library) is that he's not dead. We've had decades to collectively fix the horizon of meaning of Bernard's output, which I imagine must be convenient from a marketing perspective (but *please* no one give them any ideas!).
> 
> 
> And since I'm on a philosophical tear, why not a historiographical one? I also think Fawkner would have been completely on Daniel's side of this debate in the sense that 'the past isn't dead and buried, it isn't even past'. Clearly the "Hans Zimmer Sound" - in the Daniel-Jamesian sense of the term - is very much alive and generative in the hands of a very passionate group of people - great art is always bigger than the artist, and there's no way even Hans himself could declare it over, even if he wanted to. Which I don't image he - what I hear Hans saying is more "you really don't need my help with that particular 'Hans Zimmer' Sound. And not "don't do that its passé".
> 
> And if there's anyone who doesn't need help in channeling that classic "Hans Zimmer Sound" it's DJ.
> 
> I love it when music is this powerful.



That about sums it up... Daniel, you have to understand that I have no idea what my “brand” is. I’m in the Centre of some hurricane and don’t even know it’s windy outside. Sometimes people like you give me a glimpse, but it’s not my reality, as you well know. I - like I suspect all of you - just try to solve whatever storytelling/musical question is put in front of me and not get bored. Or bore the audience.
For example, I couldn’t do Ridley’s “Kingdom Of Heaven” because I - in my limited musical vocabulary - just kept hearing myself repeating all my “Gladiator” ideas. To Harry G-W it was All New, and he wrote a truly magnificent score. And even you, Daniel, were for a minute part of me trying to re-invent my sound on “Sherlock”. Ok, you didn’t really want to make coffee, but maybe it was me fucking around with banjos and fiddles that drove you away. I can quite understand. Warner Bros felt like that at first, too. I should have clocked it, but when I get an idea, I stubbornly stick with it... and I still think the banjos and Roma violins where a good idea. It was good enough for me to laugh out loud when the script for the sequel opened with “interior. Gypsy camp”.
But - and you know I like you - the reticence I had to go through with a bunch of smart - really Smart - studio executives was simply about ... sometimes you have to give people a moment to get used to me doing something “new”. In film-scoring you’re always asked to do something new and exciting... but than comes the moment where you play it for the first time to people who weren’t involved in the whole, loooong process of writing and thinking and discussing and experimenting and failing with the thing - and they are always a bit shocked. Because “New” isn’t what they really wanted. They wanted something that matched their preconceived ideas (I’d just done “Batman” for them) of the type of music of mine they liked. They forgot all about “Driving Miss Daisy” - also a WB film - as being just as much part of me as “Pirates” is. The difference here is... I have to fit into the appropriate language of storytelling on a film, while for a library I needed to surround myself with people that share a similar aesthetic to mine. Which I truly believe Christian and Paul do.
I’ve always tried to escape the “brand” thing, and the more I’ve tried, the more I’ve become that in people’s mind. Look, the most successful score of mine - the one to crib a line from “Gladiator” - truly seems to echo in eternity, is “Lion King”. Makes grown men cry. I saw it at Coachella. But that’s not the sound you expected. Even though, if you think about it, it would stand to reason. It’s got strings (really crappy samples...) and every kid seems to be somewhat familiar with it.
But neither you or I are thinking of that as the brand. You’ve just fallen into the trap that every composer hates the most:

You had some sort of temp score in your head.


And the “Metallica” example is a little unfair. The reason - and you know this - I got out of rock was the simple expectation a band has to fulfill in repeating what becomes ‘their’ sound. There are too many examples (including, I believe, from Metallica themselves) where the artist has to fight - and usually loose - their fight with the record company for trying a new sound. Who knows if Metallica really want to secretly do a ‘psychedelic (sp?) country and western hip hop’ album next? That’s why I got into film and never had a record deal....for the freedom to try new and weird things.
But back to the library... first of all, maybe you need to give it a bit more time than a quick meal at McDonalds? (I know...5 hours is more like a pub-crawl, not McDonalds, but I think it’s a better metaphor) Maybe the whole point of all this is to bring something that challenges you to - stealing from Chris Nolan here - Dream A Little Bigger?

Whatever the technical problems with a new sampler, they’ll get fixed (I wish you’d all have ‘closed’ systems like I do... we can really beta test things then. The price of technological anarchy is ...anarchy). But - is the underlying, fundamental sound, performance and recording solid and of a quality to stand the test of time and something that can inspire?

I never would use the words “a revolutionary, groundbreaking product”... To me it’s all just a bit of evolution. You wake up, you have an idea, get 300 odd players and make it Christian and Paul’s problem... 

I don’t want to be a brand. I’m not unawares or ungrateful and arrogant to complain about the money or the success. I’m lucky. But I, Hans Zimmer the person, don’t want to be a brand. But if it gives me the opportunity to write music, keep musicians fed, help build tools to inspire people who - inevitably and hopefully will become my competition - and somehow stay relevant to get you all arguing about it after forty years of being at it - so be it.


----------



## David Gosnell

I have an Aerosmith album which was recorded live, and after performing one of their classics, Steve Tyler shouts out to the crowd 'So which do you prefer, the old sh*t or the new sh*t?' and the crowd shout back in one voice 'The old sh*t!'

I can't help but be reminded of this classic artistic dilemma. If you book expensive tickets to see a Tom Jones gig and he only sings stuff off his latest album, a lot of his fans would be disappointed. Most bands whose careers have had a long lifespan accept that, no matter how sick they are of singing their version of 'It's not unusual', they owe it to the fans who put them where they are to carve through it one more time. In the relationship between artist and fanbase, 'the wand chooses the wizard' and if you write/perform something people really love, then that's how the world will define you - irrespective of how you define yourself.

I can definitely imagine a scenario where a producer has said to a director after HZ has left the screening room 'I was expecting something a bit more, 'Batman'???' - especially as there is a tendency to believe music attached to a successful franchise slapped onto a new project is likely to make that too more successful.

In terms of the brand or the person, artists are defined by their most broadly successful work. Here in the UK, Classic FM still frequently plays cues from Gladiator - but I have yet to hear them play anything from Dunkirk. This kind of thing perpetuates for HZ, as it does for all artists, the public perception that he's 'the Gladiator Guy'.

In this context, 'Hans Zimmer Strings' sounds like it will be a greatest hits album - whereas 'Han Zimmer Dunkirk Strings' not only fits with Spitfire's 'British history' brand names - but is a more precise description of what the library actually is. In the same way - 'Tom Jones Sings' would be a different album to 'Tom Jones Sings Delta Blues'.

In the sense that this thread has greatly enhanced my understanding of what Han Zimmer Strings is and was intended to be by its creators - way beyond the understanding I got from the pre-release marketing (I can't help but feel I would have been more likely to buy it if Rctec's explanations here had been part of the launch campaign) - I have also been persuaded a little more by Daniel's original argument that the launch communications have, maybe deliberately, left the door just open enough for anyone who doesn't bother with walk-throughs to jump to the wrong conclusion and drop their hard-earned cash on "'Til My Back Ain't Got No Bone" (2015) when they thought they were buying "Delilah" (1968).


----------



## Rctec

David Gosnell said:


> I have an Aerosmith album which was recorded live, and after performing one of their classics, Steve Tyler shouts out to the crowd 'So which do you prefer, the old sh*t or the new sh*t?' and the crowd shout back in one voice 'The old sh*t!'
> 
> I can't help but be reminded of this classic artistic dilemma. If you book expensive tickets to see a Tom Jones gig and he only sings stuff off his latest album, a lot of his fans would be disappointed. Most bands whose careers have had a long lifespan accept that, no matter how sick they are of singing their version of 'It's not unusual', they owe it to the fans who put them where they are to carve through it one more time. In the relationship between artist and fanbase, 'the wand chooses the wizard' and if you write/perform something people really love, then that's how the world will define you - irrespective of how you define yourself.
> 
> I can definitely imagine a scenario where a producer has said to a director after HZ has left the screening room 'I was expecting something a bit more, 'Batman'???' - especially as there is a tendency to believe music attached to a successful franchise slapped onto a new project is likely to make that too more successful.
> 
> In terms of the brand or the person, artists are defined by their most broadly successful work. Here in the UK, Classic FM still frequently plays cues from Gladiator - but I have yet to hear them play anything from Dunkirk. This kind of thing perpetuates for HZ, as it does for all artists, the public perception that he's 'the Gladiator Guy'.
> 
> In this context, 'Hans Zimmer Strings' sounds like it will be a greatest hits album - whereas 'Han Zimmer Dunkirk Strings' not only fits with Spitfire's 'British history' brand names - but is a more precise description of what the library actually is. In the same way - 'Tom Jones Sings' would be a different album to 'Tom Jones Sings Delta Blues'.
> 
> In the sense that this thread has greatly enhanced my understanding of what Han Zimmer Strings is and was intended to be by its creators - way beyond the understanding I got from the pre-release marketing (I can't help but feel I would have been more likely to buy it if Rctec's explanations here had been part of the launch campaign) - I have also been persuaded a little more by Daniel's original argument that the launch communications have, maybe deliberately, left the door just open enough for anyone who doesn't bother with walk-throughs to jump to the wrong conclusion and drop their hard-earned cash on "'Til My Back Ain't Got No Bone" (2015) when they thought they were buying "Delilah" (1968).


... I was writing when you where writing. Hence the crossover of ideas...


----------



## stixman

From what I can gather this library has some lovely beautiful sounds but is simply just overpriced due to having been endorsed by a name composer who just happens to be one of the most successful of this generation....so the question arises could this just be a coincidence possibly or some dastardly plan to capitalise on his popularity to fill the much needed coffers.....ps I was here @2018


----------



## David Gosnell

I think this thread is an object lesson in the importance (in marketing terms) of managing expectations. The classic marketing example is going to buy a classic car (or maybe a classic synth!), knowing it is worth $10,000 and offering only $5,000 as your opening negotiation tactic. If the seller gets pissed at your insulting offer and you haggle and end up getting it for $7,500 you feel really pleased you got a good deal. If however he responds, 'OK, $5,000 it is then' - human nature makes us feel a) 'what's wrong with it?' and then later b) 'damn! I should have offered $4,000!

The point being that what you pay isn't the issue, it's how good a deal you feel got that determines how satisfied you are with the outcome.

If we go in expecting one thing and get something different it is really unsettling and can prejudice our view of the value of what we are actually getting. Like a composer who wants to explore boundaries, a marketers job is to anticipate what people are going to want but don't know it yet - and then give it to them. You do however have to subtly prepare them first, so they are receptive to your offer before you make it. Our lives to date are a 'temp track', and selling us innovation is a special art form all in itself. This is the potential hazard of SF's teaser-type marketing strategy - it allows people to guess what a product is going to be and form expectations based on their own 'temp track'. If you then don't deliver, they will be dissatisfied with the outcome. 

It could be argued that the opportunity of being given access to a creative process is more valuable that being given access to something that has already been created - but putting a fishing rod in the hands of a man who has just told you he is hungry requires a little additional explanation if you don't want him to just start hitting you with it.


----------



## acomposer

Daniel James said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I just did a 5 hour live stream looking at the entirety of the HZ String library by Spitfire.
> 
> A decent library which I have some issues with....as I go into, at length in the stream.
> 
> I understand the sort of reaction I am going to get with this one for various reasons. But please if you are going to object to or try to refute my opinion please at least watch for my justification behind it, so I don't have to repeat myself over and over.
> 
> -DJ




You have quite a potty mouth.


----------



## Phillip

Hi Daniel. Thank you for your thorough review and your honesty. This disappointment with new Spitfire HZ strings may be a blessing in disguise. May be it is the time for you to get inspired with composers other than HZ? I think you,Ve mastered this idiom very well, but there lies a danger of depriving yourself of many other supremely valuable concepts. When I get lost in a sea of music or when I get frustrated with limitations of current library offerings I turn to classics. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven etc. Just listening, let alon analyzing their great music allows me put my worries in a larger context and except limitations of sampling libraries and other sources of frustration. I think the of times when Garritan Personal Orchestra seemed an incredibly powerful tool and how inspiring it was to start using it.

Today many of us want more, better, larger, faster. But what makes the music - the sound of the libraries you are using or your actual compositional skills - melodic inventiveness, harmonic sofistication, knowledge of counterpoint, polyphony and many other aspects of out craft?

If you are upset about spending money on something missrepresented by Spitfire, than the issue is rather - why are Spitfire products are not refundable and are not resellable? Is that fair to composers who spend their hard earned money on rather expensive tools?

All the best, Phillip


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

acomposer said:


> You have quite a potty mouth.



Why? I mean you can disagree with his opinion, but it would show more ability if you are able to articulate yourself and give some reasons either than just doing such statement.


----------



## blougui

stixman said:


> From what I can gather this library has some lovely beautiful sounds but is simply just overpriced due to having been endorsed by a name composer who just happens to be one of the most successful of this generation....so the question arises could this just be a coincidence possibly or some dastardly plan to capitalise on his popularity to fill the much needed coffers.....ps I was here @2018



When you book 344 top of the crop players in an expensive hall with top of their game technicians, R&D for a new sampler and the like, you won’t get away with it at a Thrifty price, mind you


----------



## Rctec

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Why? I mean you can disagree with his opinion, but it would show more ability if you are able to articulate yourself and give some reasons either than just doing such statement.



Mozart apparently had quite the potty mouth as well. I’m glad you wrote this, Alexander. It was bugging me, too. Daniel is a really great character, full of passion... I might disagree with him, but never on language!


----------



## Puzzlefactory

NoamL said:


> The difference is there is no "John Williams Timpani." John Williams writes for *the* timpani.
> 
> He has "favorite players," but in the sense that they're accurate at sightreading his challenging writing.



I meant the contrast is the same. 

People were talking about how huge the Timpani were in certain scenes of last Jedi. But in those scenes the timpani were pretty much playing solo. So of course they sounded huge.


----------



## Ryan

So much fun reading trough this..


----------



## blougui

btw, we keep commenting on SA marketing like they were wrong doing it that way but 1st: we are just a small crop of their customers : who knows if it doesn’t work for the larger crowd ?
2nd/ we only read the more vocals here (both positive and negative) 3d/ how come one would not brag about a tool of this scope and investment ? 4th/ With more than 40 employees Paul & Christian have to make it a success and use whatever soft weapon is at their disposal.

I myself could have but just 2 regrets: the absence of reselling value (a hobbyist with no revenue from my music so 600€ is really hard to fork out) and at the moment the absence of a playthrough of a lot more of mics and arts - I wouldn’t care that much if we could have the option of transfering the lib. 

Other than that, I really dig the tone of the lib, the lowend on some of the patches, the presence of details despite the sheer amount of musicians. 

I might have missed some information but I would have appreciated more of the reasonning behind the peculiar sitting of HZS.

It’s a pleasure to be able to read all the passionnate exchange between musicians who take care to articulate their arguments, here on VI.C (though it’s a distraction from what we should be doing right, wether or not we have HZS on our HD...)


----------



## rottoy

Rctec said:


> Mozart apparently had quite the potty mouth as well. I’m glad you wrote this, Alexander. It was bugging me, too. Daniel is a really great character, full of passion... I might disagree with him, but never on language!


I agree with Billy. I love being articulate and keep a tidy form when possible, but the temptation to punctuate an ornate sentiment with the occasional foul word is too much when being passionate about something.


----------



## Kony

New drinking game: read through this thread and every time you see any of the following words - Pirates, Batman, Inception, Gladiator, Braaam, TWAT, Interstellar, Lion King, Man Of Steel - have a shot of your favourite spirit....


----------



## oxo

i think everything you write about here (except the bugs), all misunderstandings, all disappointed expectations, all irritations, etc. ... is the result of insufficient communication of the marketing department about this product. when the exact concept of a product is communicated, the idea behind it, how it sounds, and how the customer makes the most of it, there are fewer false expectations.


----------



## acomposer

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Why? I mean you can disagree with his opinion, but it would show more ability if you are able to articulate yourself and give some reasons either than just doing such statement.



OK, I will try and articulate. Maybe you are not familiar with the popular term, 'potty mouth': 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Potty mouth

I watched a 15 minute segment of the video and he used the 'F' word many times. Why does he think this is necessary? I want to enjoy his interesting video without hearing profanity. If he is going to swear like that then maybe a cautionary notice is required? What if youngsters were to watch? Video makers have to be responsible.

I understand he maybe wants to get down with the kidz on a cool and hip level, but he should realize that some of us grown-ups don't feel the need to swear every other word and might find it quite jarring. Maybe he has Tourettes - in which case I sympathize but then the video should be edited afterwards to remove the profanity. 

It really isn't necessary.

Hope that clarifies my earlier post.


----------



## rottoy

acomposer said:


> OK, I will try and articulate. Maybe you are not familiar with the popular term, 'potty mouth':
> 
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Potty mouth
> 
> I watched a 15 minute segment of the video and he used the 'F' word many times. Why does he think this is necessary? I want to enjoy his interesting video without hearing profanity. If he is going to swear like that then maybe a cautionary notice is required? What if youngsters were to watch? Video makers have to be responsible.
> 
> I understand he maybe wants to get down with the kidz on a cool and hip level, but he should realize that some of us grown-ups don't feel the need to swear every other word and might find it quite jarring. Maybe he has Tourettes - in which case I sympathize but then the video should be edited afterwards to remove the profanity.
> 
> It really isn't necessary.
> 
> Hope that clarifies my earlier post.


April Fools to you too.


----------



## Dr Belasco

I would say to Daniel or anybody that does this for a living - when buying anything...sample libraries, audio interfaces, guitars, keyboards etc, always make as sure as possible that the product you're buying for your job is going to give you a return. Or why are you buying it?


----------



## fiestared

acomposer said:


> OK, I will try and articulate. Maybe you are not familiar with the popular term, 'potty mouth':
> 
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Potty mouth
> 
> I watched a 15 minute segment of the video and he used the 'F' word many times. Why does he think this is necessary? I want to enjoy his interesting video without hearing profanity. If he is going to swear like that then maybe a cautionary notice is required? What if youngsters were to watch? Video makers have to be responsible.
> 
> I understand he maybe wants to get down with the kidz on a cool and hip level, but he should realize that some of us grown-ups don't feel the need to swear every other word and might find it quite jarring. Maybe he has Tourettes - in which case I sympathize but then the video should be edited afterwards to remove the profanity.
> 
> It really isn't necessary.
> 
> Hope that clarifies my earlier post.



"*Tourettes*" You made my day ! Happy Easter


----------



## mouse

acomposer said:


> OK, I will try and articulate. Maybe you are not familiar with the popular term, 'potty mouth':
> 
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Potty mouth
> 
> I watched a 15 minute segment of the video and he used the 'F' word many times. Why does he think this is necessary? I want to enjoy his interesting video without hearing profanity. If he is going to swear like that then maybe a cautionary notice is required? What if youngsters were to watch? Video makers have to be responsible.
> 
> I understand he maybe wants to get down with the kidz on a cool and hip level, but he should realize that some of us grown-ups don't feel the need to swear every other word and might find it quite jarring. Maybe he has Tourettes - in which case I sympathize but then the video should be edited afterwards to remove the profanity.
> 
> It really isn't necessary.
> 
> Hope that clarifies my earlier post.



Haha what a fucking pile of shit lol


----------



## Dr Belasco

Tourettes isn't about swearing. It's about ticks and SHEEEEEEEP!!!


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

acomposer said:


> OK, I will try and articulate. Maybe you are not familiar with the popular term, 'potty mouth':
> 
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Potty mouth
> 
> I watched a 15 minute segment of the video and he used the 'F' word many times. Why does he think this is necessary? I want to enjoy his interesting video without hearing profanity. If he is going to swear like that then maybe a cautionary notice is required? What if youngsters were to watch? Video makers have to be responsible.
> 
> I understand he maybe wants to get down with the kidz on a cool and hip level, but he should realize that some of us grown-ups don't feel the need to swear every other word and might find it quite jarring. Maybe he has Tourettes - in which case I sympathize but then the video should be edited afterwards to remove the profanity.
> 
> It really isn't necessary.
> 
> Hope that clarifies my earlier post.



Sure it does and thats a fair point. Definitely.


----------



## Dr Belasco

This would be more indicative of Tourettes, but without the ticks.


----------



## markleake

acomposer said:


> OK, I will try and articulate. Maybe you are not familiar with the popular term, 'potty mouth':
> 
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Potty mouth
> 
> I watched a 15 minute segment of the video and he used the 'F' word many times. Why does he think this is necessary? I want to enjoy his interesting video without hearing profanity. If he is going to swear like that then maybe a cautionary notice is required? What if youngsters were to watch? Video makers have to be responsible.
> 
> I understand he maybe wants to get down with the kidz on a cool and hip level, but he should realize that some of us grown-ups don't feel the need to swear every other word and might find it quite jarring. Maybe he has Tourettes - in which case I sympathize but then the video should be edited afterwards to remove the profanity.
> 
> It really isn't necessary.
> 
> Hope that clarifies my earlier post.


I don't have a problem with people complaining about the swearing, as funny as some people may find such comments. Some people are more sensitive to this than others, and as adults (presumably most of us here are) we all know that, or we should. But this is what you get with Daniel and I doubt complaining about it here is going to change him. 
But I wonder if looking past that, you have a comment on what Daniel's video was about?


----------



## Dr Belasco

markleake said:


> But I wonder if looking past that, you have a comment on what Daniel's video was about?



Disappointment.


----------



## reid




----------



## germancomponist

Rctec said:


> .... You can’t do a post-production mastering process that is appropriate for a piece of music until the Music is written - and surrounded by the sound-fx. It doesn’t say on the “Spitfire” box that it comes with a free Alan Meyerson to post-produce your tracks after you’ve written them.....


This!
Exactly my first thought when I read Daniels wird's.


----------



## acomposer

rottoy said:


> April Fools to you too.



Not at all. I just don't like vulgarity and profanity. I guess that must be hard to appreciate in this day and age eh? I would be interested in looking at more of DJs videos but before doing so I would like to establish if he has a potty mouth in all of them or whether he was just having a bad day playing with HZ Strings? Also, he should note that a good many other musicians are able to produce informative YT reviews/walkthroughs without having a potty mouth.

_“Vulgarity is like a fine wine: it should only be uncorked on a special occasion, and then only shared with the right group of people.” _- J.Rozoff


----------



## novaburst

markleake said:


> I would be expecting something that gets me more easily to the point of being able to produce the well known Zimmer sounds.



I know I may sound like a loop, I am sorry for that, but its a string library yes a huge string library and that's it how is any one going to get a HZ sound from just a string library, doesn't matter how large the sections are please explain.

If it was a library full of instruments and sound effects and vocals that HZ uses then I may be inclined to understand but even then you will still need to compose some thing very similar to HZ to get that mood and vibe with those instruments and effects you cant just stick to what you all ways do and compose and then suddenly wow I sound like HZ, you will at least need to change something in your style of music and start adapting to the mood and emotion that HZ can radiate from his music, I would have thought any one could understand that.

There are many instruments that make up the HZ sound and it is not percussion or strings alone, he is very deep and particular when it comes to effects playing along side traditional instruments, he does very unique patterns with orchestration do you remember the string staccatos on the Dark Night nearly every one started copying it and yes they did sound like him but they did not have any of his library's.

Has there been more than 344 string section in a real life orchestra before I don't know to hand but my gut feeling says yes, but it has never been done in a sample library well at least until HZ came along.

Many don't know what a 344 string section sounds like but he does so he just wanted to share that in the sample world not that you can sound like him, it was so you can have the same experience as he did.

it was because of HZ why we now have such a library in the sample world and that is the reason his name is on the product, absolutely 100% no misleading form where I stand, his name would have needed to be the title role of the product because it was because of him its out there now 

Did any one go to HZ master class and listen to his teachings, any one who did would come out with a better understanding of a HZ sound and would be able to apply that to there projects. 



markleake said:


> I would be expecting something that gets me more easily to the point of being able to produce the well known Zimmer sounds.



So no I simply cant agree with this and I don't understand the logic behind it after all we are talking about music and we all have our different styles all use the same instruments and none of us sound the alike unless we start to copy or do something similar as one another.


----------



## novaburst

DarkestShadow said:


> Of course, the composition changes how the instrument sounds like BUT the instruments used also change how the compositon sounds like. Every instrument (or ensembles and their recordings) has another character. And there are sounds that are closer to HZ's sound and others that are further away. Of course you have to work with a library a certain way to get a certain but there are always libraries that make it harder or easier to get there.
> Here for example is Time (as I remember it haha) on the piano Hans used in the score... and then the same melody on another pianos.
> http://picosong.com/wekmF/
> The feeling and sonic meaning of the composition changes dramatically, in my view...
> 
> What sounds you use matters, not just how you use them.
> 
> Random rant of the day.



Nice piece, Why do you believe if you use another piano you want be able to get the same vibe, I would go further and say if you used a guitar you should be able to get the same mood.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

I think people were probably expecting something akin to the patch used in the “I like to write in D....” video.


----------



## D Halgren

acomposer said:


> Not at all. I just don't like vulgarity and profanity. I guess that must be hard to appreciate in this day and age eh? I would be interested in looking at more of DJs videos but before doing so I would like to establish if he has a potty mouth in all of them or whether he was just having a bad day playing with HZ Strings? Also, he should note that a good many other musicians are able to produce informative YT reviews/walkthroughs without having a potty mouth.
> 
> _“Vulgarity is like a fine wine: it should only be uncorked on a special occasion, and then only shared with the right group of people.” _- J.Rozoff


Wow, you must really have a hard time in this day and age.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

novaburst said:


> Nice piece, Why do you believe if you use another piano you want be able to get the same vibe, I would go further and say if you used a guitar you should be able to get the same mood.


For some it will sound the same. For me even replacing a string passage with another library can actually ruin it because for me every sound has an very different character and thus articulates the melody differently. Like human voices - they are all just voices but every one has another character and may be suited better for X or Y. I'm extremely glad that not every instument of the same sort sounds the same to me. That thought actually haunts me.  Or... every instrument


----------



## tack

acomposer said:


> Not at all. I just don't like vulgarity and profanity. I guess that must be hard to appreciate in this day and age eh? I would be interested in looking at more of DJs videos but before doing so I would like to establish if he has a potty mouth in all of them or whether he was just having a bad day playing with HZ Strings?


You'll want to avoid DJ altogether then. As well you should steer well clear of Mike Verta.

Alternatively, if you can overcome your aversion to particular words, you will find that you can learn a lot from both of them. I daresay no one has taught me as much as Mike Verta has, and he is both profane _and _vulgar (and usually in the most entertaining of ways). Those are different concepts too, and while Daniel is frequently profane I've rarely found him to be vulgar.

As to Daniel's video, I skimmed through it and watched most of the ranty parts near the end and I fully understand his argument. But I think the demos on the website are perhaps the best counterargument. When I heard them I felt that they didn't really sound much like HZ's prior stuff. From those demos alone I wouldn't have bought the library expecting a much different sound from the demos and SF's early walkthroughs.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

'Hans Zimmer' makes me think of Hannibal (my favourite of his scores) Interstellar, True Romance as much as other people jump to Pirates and Batman. Not everyone gets the same sense of what Hans Zimmer 'is' when they hear the name - hence the brand Vs identity conversations. And surely Hans putting his name on it means it should be something reflective of _his_ identity and creativity rather than him doing what anyone else might expect or want him to do.
The problem here is partly in putting their own expectations and prejudice onto what a HZ library _should_ be. We've already had many examples in this thread of how one might emulate the sound from Pirates, Gladiator etc. Saying you can get that particular vibe from Met Ark or Albion etc perfectly proves the point that a new library endorsed by Hans probably shouldn't concentrate on that sound (which he's since moved on from) anyway. 
The walkthroughs and info pre-release made it clear that this was a collaboration in a similar vein to Orchestral Swarm. Using the tech to do something new, interesting and driven by the creative ideas and collaborators of Hans. I prefer the idea of a library curated and co-produced by HZ with the aim of doing something new and exploratory rather than a reductive 'greatest hits' patchlist emulating two or three specific film scores from ten + years ago.


----------



## vms

LOL
"From thundering basslines to glass-like high strings, this is symphonic strings maximized."
"Take the dynamic of your scores to levels you’d never imagined with our most ambitious library yet."

Where are the thundering basslines?? hahaha
Thanks DJ for being honest!!


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Would be interesting to see if “Like a Dog chasing Cars” could be reproduced with HZ strings...?


----------



## tack

vms said:


> Where are the thundering basslines?? hahaha


Actually in the video when DJ layered cellos and basses in octaves he thought that sounded pretty good. He also pointed out it took two instances and 5GB, but it was possible.


----------



## vms

tack said:


> Actually in the video when DJ layered cellos and basses in octaves he thought that sounded pretty good. He also pointed out it took two instances and 5GB, but it was possible.


05:16:03
Albion 1 sounds even more powerful than the 60 cellos patch


----------



## Rctec

vms said:


> LOL
> "From thundering basslines to glass-like high strings, this is symphonic strings maximized."
> "Take the dynamic of your scores to levels you’d never imagined with our most ambitious library yet."
> 
> Where are the thundering basslines?? hahaha
> Thanks DJ for being honest!!



The thundering basslines are usually a zebra2Hz or a sitting nicely with the Basses. And maybe just a bit of Neve 1073. And then comes Alan’s mix...


----------



## PaulBrimstone

Reading Hans's recollections of scores and projects gone by makes me think a HZ biography would be a great read. Better still, an autobiography. How about it Hans; surely you have time on your hands?


----------



## Critz

It should be pretty clear that the positioning of instruments is at the base of the concept of this library. I don't have it and I can't judge how succesful and evident it is. But that's one of the keys of HZ vision I think. I remember an interview about Horns in The Dark Knight (?). 
Personally, that's pretty great, but I can't renounce to a proper legato and scripting and a certain consistency that my other "regular" string libraries have. 
I think that HZ Brass (if that's meant to be a series) will be a much more successful product, where the number and the position of sections will have a bigger impact..


----------



## rottoy

PaulBrimstone said:


> Reading Hans's recollections of scores and projects gone by makes me think a HZ biography would be a great read. Better still, an autobiography. How about it Hans; surely you have time on your hands?


I'm most curious as to the details of his first meeting with the famous Arnald Olafsson.


----------



## novaburst

DarkestShadow said:


> For some it will sound the same. For me even replacing a string passage with another library can actually ruin it



I agree especially if you have got accustom to that instrument you used in that piece nothing else will do, but now take that same piano and play Star Wars with it, it want give you a HZ vibe or sound or make you start thinking oh wow this sounds like HZ, so your trying to sound like HZ while doing Star Wars piece just because you have something designed by him..........eh ...no

I can remember you @DarkestShadow posted a few of your piece's
and you were worried because they sounded a little bit like HZ, quite a few listeners said yes it does and you should perhaps change the style up, even HZ him self joined the thread to encourage you to change it, the reason for that is because it was very close to a HZ composition.

I will take a guess and say I bet you did not use any HZ instrument's for those pieces, you simply just knew how a HZ piece was composed and that put you in danger of copy write.

Nearly every one has EastWest Hollywood strings including you, but we don't sound the same when we use them.

Different starting points, counter points, different intros, different timing, different understanding, different experience all adds to our complexity when writing music.

which is why just using what some one else uses is not enough you need to write like them too.


----------



## Mike Fox

vms said:


> 05:16:03
> Albion 1 sounds even more powerful than the 60 cellos patch


I keep scratching my head at that one. First, it takes HZ Strings 5GB to achieve that sound. 5GB!!! That's not even practical. My machine is maxed out at 64GB. If I have to use 5GB to achieve that sound, I'm gonna reach for a different string library that can pull it off at a much smaller footprint. That's just common sense. Second, I CAN get my other string libraries to sound like that, and that's a big problem I have with this library. It sounds beautiful, but aside from some of the unique articulations(which don't justify its price tag), I've yet to hear anything that my other string libraries can't already pull off. It took Daniel seconds to pull up a patch in Albion 1 that sounded just as good as the HZ Strings patches totalling 5GB.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Rctec said:


> The thundering basslines are usually a zebra2Hz or a sitting nicely with the Basses. And maybe just a bit of Neve 1073. And then comes Alan’s mix...



Christian seemed to make pretty thunderous bassline by adding the sub bass plugin in Logic.


----------



## IoannisGutevas

For me HZ Strings has a poorly designed UI and its a library with bad designed legatos and shorts with almost no utility. I don't understand the premise by some people that said -more or less- "Its a very good library if you spend the time and the effort to make great sounds out of it and if you cant understand that you are stupid". Im not giving 800euro for something that i will need to put a huge personal effort of days or weeks and A LOT of ram wasted in order to make something good. No i don't expect to press a key and suddenly turn my queues into Pirates of the Caribbean or Gladiator but for that much money i expect from the product i buy to be inspiring enough and intuitive enough in order for me to work with it. And this library fails hard on both aspects. At least for now (maybe future updates will make it worth). 

I don’t care if Hans Zimmer or Jesus was in the recording process, in the end its just a string library and composers should judge it like one and nothing else. Are there other string libraries that are far more intuitive with less ram requirements that can have better legatos and their shorts not failing? Yes. Unless you want to pay 800euro for 340 string players playing "pads" at ppp I don’t see the point on wasting so much money in this. I would pick Symphonic Strings from Spitfire over it in a heartbeat. Or hell you can buy almost 2 albions for the same price! (yes i know the price is reduced right now but im talking about the regular price of the library).

Don’t get stuck by brand names and big talk. If something is inspiring and useful its obvious to mostly everyone (like Jaeger for example or if you want examples from spitfire think the Albions when they came out). This whole charade that it is something exceptional but you are just stupid you don’t see it makes a poor excuse for a bad designed product in a very high price. 

At least thats what i think, for what it's worth  .


----------



## Puzzlefactory

I thought the legato’s thing was a bug that’s getting fixed...?


----------



## Vanni

Thanks DJ for the time and effort. Impressive.

Still, I think the “ranting part” is a bit exaggerated:

1- We are not talking about a mass consumer product or an impulse buy: we are talking about an expensive software aimed at music pros and the likes. I would assume that the overwhelming majority of buyers will actually do some research before buying, and listen to demos, reviews, etc. It will be quite obvious then what this library is really about.

2- While I certainly agree that 99% of people think at HZ sound as “boom boom HZ”, when reading about him I was actually more impressed by the astounding depth of his sound design. I got the feeling he actually spends more time, effort and possibly skills in crafting “how” to record a certain cue vs. actually composing the cue. Or better said, that “how” to record is as important as “what” to record. In this sense, I believe that the sheer amount of mics positions available, players positions, etc. is “HZ signature” just as much as the Batman’s 16ths. And maybe that’s what actually separates his final sound from all the “wannabe HZ sound” guys.

Thanks again for your time and effort.


----------



## loolaphonic

I was expecting Going for Gold so if the strings don’t let me do that then I’m not interested. 

With a new player can’t they do try-before-buy? Then people wouldn’t feel too upset that they didn’t get Captain Jack Sparrow.


----------



## prodigalson

vms said:


> 05:16:03
> Albion 1 sounds even more powerful than the 60 cellos patch



It's not an accurate comparison because the Albion patch is Cellos and Basses in 8ves recorded together. 8ves are always going to sound fuller and more powerful than an a line in unison.


----------



## Dani Donadi

Rctec said:


> Mozart apparently had quite the potty mouth as well. I’m glad you wrote this, Alexander. It was bugging me, too. Daniel is a really great character, full of passion... I might disagree with him, but never on language!



As a European living in the States, I can relate to that, but for some reason our "foul mouth" is never dramatic. Although I don't agree 100% with DJ, his language doesn't bother me at all.


----------



## Drundfunk

Mike Fox said:


> I keep scratching my head at that one. First, it takes HZ Strings 5GB to achieve that sound. 5GB!!! That's not even practical. My machine is maxed out at 64GB. If I have to use 5GB to achieve that sound, I'm gonna reach for a different string library that can pull it off at a much smaller footprint. That's just common sense. Second, I CAN get my other string libraries to sound like that, and that's a big problem I have with this library. It sounds beautiful, but aside from some of the unique articulations(which don't justify its price tag), I've yet to hear anything that my other string libraries can't already pull off. It took Daniel seconds to pull up a patch in Albion 1 that sounded just as good as the HZ Strings patches totalling 5GB.



I feel like that's quite an unfair comparison because the library doesn't try to excel in being huge and epic. Daniel made this comparison because he had a certain expectation what the library should be and was let down. I think Mr. Zimmer himself already stated that the library was not created having this huge and epic sound in mind, but rather having new and interesting colors to use (don't quote me on that one, just recalling from memory ). I don't know how many times I read on this forum that the reason people own so many libraries is, that every library has it's strength and weaknesses. So yes maybe Albion 1 is better at this epic sound, on the other hand can Albion 1 play long super sul pont? (I don't own Albion so I actually don't know).

Personally I'm leaning towards Daniel's side, but that's simply because I personally associate Hans Zimmer with this huge and epic sound. I'm sure many people do, but on the other hand my favourite HZ score is The Last Samurai and I could hear "You're so cool" from True Romance all day and it's not huge, bombastic and epic. I mean his career lasts for how long now? And how many scores are actually huge and epic? The Little Prince certainly isn't. So what I'm saying, just because we/you associate HZ with epic doesn't mean that it's true. In the end he is a film composer and has to create a sonic world with music and how that sounds depends on the film (at least that's how I see it and to me one of the reasons why for example Danny Elfman's score for Justice League didn't really click with the film (in my opinion)). So yeah I think it's quite unfortunate that we only associate a certain type of sound with HZ because it's actually quite versatile, like the movies he has worked on. 

I agree that 5GB is a lot. I'm working on a machine with 32GB and I don't see myself using a library which takes up so much space. On the other hand you have many options for sculpting the sound. In the end I think it's an additional tool to use if you like articulations which are sonically different to the "normal" articulations, probably rather aimed at professionals and/or people who don't have to care about computer specs or the money this library costs.


----------



## acomposer

Rctec said:


> Mozart apparently had quite the potty mouth as well.



I am not too sure about this Rctec. I have seen Amadeus 13 times and only recall one instance of the 'F' word (in the scene where Wolfgang rages about his "fuck*ng harpsichord breaking again"). Yes, in such extreme circumstances one can understand the use of profanity. It is fair to say that I would resort to such language myself in a similar situation (perhaps when my Pan Pipes become overly moist, for example.)

Harpsichords are difficult instruments to repair at the best of times and the last thing one needs is a G-string snapping whilst constructing an intricate fugal exposition in one's Symphony.


----------



## axb312

IoannisGutevas said:


> For me HZ Strings has a poorly designed UI and its a library with bad designed legatos and shorts with almost no utility. I don't understand the premise by some people that said -more or less- "Its a very good library if you spend the time and the effort to make great sounds out of it and if you cant understand that you are stupid". Im not giving 800euro for something that i will need to put a huge personal effort of days or weeks and A LOT of ram wasted in order to make something good. No i don't expect to press a key and suddenly turn my queues into Pirates of the Caribbean or Gladiator but for that much money i expect from the product i buy to be inspiring enough and intuitive enough in order for me to work with it. And this library fails hard on both aspects. At least for now (maybe future updates will make it worth).
> 
> I don’t care if Hans Zimmer or Jesus was in the recording process, in the end its just a string library and composers should judge it like one and nothing else. Are there other string libraries that are far more intuitive with less ram requirements that can have better legatos and their shorts not failing? Yes. Unless you want to pay 800euro for 340 string players playing "pads" at ppp I don’t see the point on wasting so much money in this. I would pick Symphonic Strings from Spitfire over it in a heartbeat. Or hell you can buy almost 2 albions for the same price! (yes i know the price is reduced right now but im talking about the regular price of the library).
> 
> Don’t get stuck by brand names and big talk. If something is inspiring and useful its obvious to mostly everyone (like Jaeger for example or if you want examples from spitfire think the Albions when they came out). This whole charade that it is something exceptional but you are just stupid you don’t see it makes a poor excuse for a bad designed product in a very high price.
> 
> At least thats what i think, for what it's worth  .



Very well put. Ignore the name. Ignore that its from Spitfire. Would you spend 800 USD or 600 USD for a limited, inconsistent and poorly executed set of articulations and a buggy release with a limited dynamic range.

I am surprised at the level of fanboyishness on here. I hope we can change this soon and force developers to see that as such we're unwilling to pay for overpriced libraries that don't meet expectations. The hope is that this will lower the barriers for entry and bring quality samples and instruments to everyone.


----------



## Mike Fox

Drundfunk said:


> I feel like that's quite an unfair comparison because the library doesn't try to excel in being huge and epic. Daniel made this comparison because he had a certain expectation what the library should be and was let down. I think Mr. Zimmer himself already stated that the library was not created having this huge and epic sound in mind, but rather having new and interesting colors to use (don't quote me on that one, just recalling from memory ). I don't know how many times I read on this forum that the reason people own so many libraries is, that every library has it's strength and weaknesses. So yes maybe Albion 1 is better at this epic sound, on the other hand can Albion 1 play long super sul pont? (I don't own Albion so I actually don't know).
> 
> Personally I'm leaning towards Daniel's side, but that's simply because I personally associate Hans Zimmer with this huge and epic sound. I'm sure many people do, but on the other hand my favourite HZ score is The Last Samurai and I could hear "You're so cool" from True Romance all day and it's not huge, bombastic and epic. I mean his career lasts for how long now? And how many scores are actually huge and epic? The Little Prince certainly isn't. So what I'm saying, just because we/you associate HZ with epic doesn't mean that it's true. In the end he is a film composer and has to create a sonic world with music and how that sounds depends on the film (at least that's how I see it and to me one of the reasons why for example Danny Elfman's score for Justice League didn't really click with the film (in my opinion)). So yeah I think it's quite unfortunate that we only associate a certain type of sound with HZ because it's actually quite versatile, like the movies he has worked on.
> 
> I agree that 5GB is a lot. I'm working on a machine with 32GB and I don't see myself using a library which takes up so much space. On the other hand you have many options for sculpting the sound. In the end I think it's an additional tool to use if you like articulations which are sonically different to the "normal" articulations, probably rather aimed at professionals and/or people who don't have to care about computer specs or the money this library costs.



Since the library doesn't try to excel at the big and epic, I'm a little thrown off when Spitfire emphasizes, "thunderous cellos". Am I missing something, or is that left open for interpretation as well? And yes, people have different ideas about what HZ represents, but the repeated problem I keep seeing in defense of this library is people are overlooking such a critical part of Zimmer's signature sound. Instead, people are defending HZ Strings by claiming there are more artistic sides to HZ than just the bombastic, and that's what HZ Strings is more about. That's so true! But why leave out such a classic and iconic element that also represents the living legend we all know and love?

Btw, HZ Strings is being aimed at EVERYONE who compose music, "developed primarily for composers, by composers", not just the elite professionals who don't have to worry about cash or resources. If an $800 string library can't load a bass and cello patch without using 5GB of ram, I can't help but question the kind of programming that took place to produce such inefficient results. That inefficiency shouldn't have anything to do with what type of library this is or is not. So is it an unfair comparison? Or is it something a potential buyer should be concerned about?


----------



## vms

prodigalson said:


> It's not an accurate comparison because the Albion patch is Cellos and Basses in 8ves recorded together. 8ves are always going to sound fuller and more powerful than an a line in unison.


Come on man, that 60 cellos patch sounds just like a normal cellos patch, i dont think anyone can tell that's a 60 cellos unison in blind tests, DJ layered cellos & basses later, they sounds similar to Albion 1.
And dont forget Albion 1 isn't that thunderous, Metropolis ark sounds a lot more powerful.

Spitfire uses "thundering basslines", "Take the dynamic of your scores to levels you’d never imagined" to advertise the product, and that's why DJ was expecting bombastic sounds (and some of us as well). Seriously they should have made it clear that they focused on soft dynamic in this library.

Besides, inconsistent articulations, bad legato performances, and it priced at $600, hahaha....


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Haven’t watched the video (far too long) but did Daniel balance the levels of the comparison? 

It’s common knowledge that anything will sound better if it’s louder. So only a comparison where the levels are balanced at max dynamics is a fair one.

Same goes for the “met ark is more thunderous than Albion” remark too...


----------



## jesus100

I think the final conclusion is that hans zimmer is everything, the epic and the soft, and this library is only the soft, missing the epic, perhaps should do more recordings because the library is incomplete is half


----------



## Puzzlefactory




----------



## vms

Puzzlefactory said:


> Haven’t watched the video (far too long) but did Daniel balance the levels of the comparison?
> 
> It’s common knowledge that anything will sound better if it’s louder. So only a comparison where the levels are balanced at max dynamics is a fair one.
> 
> Same goes for the “met ark is more thunderous than Albion” remark too...


You are most welcome to prove that HZ strings (out of box) sounds more thunderous than met ark.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

vms said:


> You are most welcome to prove that HZ strings (out of box) sounds more thunderous than met ark.



Don’t have either. 

But the point is, “out of the box” isn’t a fair comparison. 

Only by balancing the levels so they both hit the same dB at max dynamics, will you get a fair comparison.


----------



## Mike Fox

jesus100 said:


> I think the final conclusion is that hans zimmer is everything, the epic and the soft, and this library is only the soft, missing the epic, perhaps should do more recordings because the library is incomplete is half


Simply put, and 100% dead on.


----------



## vms

Puzzlefactory said:


> Don’t have either.
> 
> But the point is, “out of the box” isn’t a fair comparison.
> 
> Only by balancing the levels so they both hit the same dB at max dynamics, will you get a fair comparison.


By 'out of box', I meant without 3rd party plugins, volume/mics adjustments, built-in FXs/presets are all allowed


----------



## prodigalson

vms said:


> Come on man, that 60 cellos patch sounds just like a normal cellos patch, i dont think anyone can tell that's a 60 cellos unison in blind tests, DJ layered cellos & basses later, they sounds similar to Albion 1.
> And dont forget Albion 1 isn't that thunderous, Metropolis ark sounds a lot more powerful.



I'm not arguing that HZS necessarily is more "thunderous" than anything else or that everyone could tell the difference between a 10 cello patch and a 60 cello patch. I'm saying that if you're going to actually try to make that assessment you can't use one string patch orchestrated in 8ves with one that is in unison regardless of how many players are in either library and the patches need to be volume matched. Yes, of course HZS sounded fuller and closer to the Albion patch when he doubled it with basses.

Again, not arguing the marketing spin. Although one argument I would make in that respect is that just because there may be libraries out there that arguably can be more "thunderous" primarily because they have been specifically designed to SOLELY do that e.g. Metropolis Ark 1, that doesn't mean that HZS CAN'T do "thunderous". The assumption is that because it's Hans Zimmer Strings that it HAS to be THE LOUDEST MOST AGRESSIVE THUNDEROUS sound in a library ever. And if it's not then the marketing is misleading and overpriced and a disappointment etc etc


----------



## Puzzlefactory

vms said:


> By 'out of box', I meant without 3rd party plugins, volume/mics adjustments, built-in FXs/presets are all allowed



Again, I don’t have the libraries so I can’t do it.

I’m asking whether others have done it before passing judgement?

Also (as I said earlier in the thread) thunderous is all about contrast. If you come out the gate at 9 you’ve got nowhere to go but 10.

You come out the gate at 3-4 then 8-9 is thunderous and 10 is enormous.


----------



## vms

prodigalson said:


> I'm not arguing that HZS necessarily is more "thunderous" than anything else or that everyone could tell the difference between a 10 cello patch and a 60 cello patch. I'm saying that if you're going to actually try to make that assessment you can't use one string patch orchestrated in 8ves with one that is in unison regardless of how many players are in either library and the patches need to be volume matched. Yes, of course HZS sounded fuller and closer to the Albion patch when he doubled it with basses.
> 
> Again, not arguing the marketing spin. Although one argument I would make in that respect is that just because there may be libraries out there that arguably can be more "thunderous" primarily because they have been specifically designed to SOLELY do that e.g. Metropolis Ark 1, that doesn't mean that HZS CAN'T do "thunderous". The assumption is that because it's Hans Zimmer Strings that it HAS to be THE LOUDEST MOST AGRESSIVE THUNDEROUS sound in a library ever. And if it's not then the marketing is misleading and overpriced and a disappointment etc etc


Oh, I encourage you buy to it and then make a video to prove me wrong


----------



## kitekrazy

Vanni said:


> Thanks DJ for the time and effort. Impressive.
> 
> Still, I think the “ranting part” is a bit exaggerated:
> 
> *1- We are not talking about a mass consumer product or an impulse buy: we are talking about an expensive software aimed at music pros and the likes.* I would assume that the overwhelming majority of buyers will actually do some research before buying, and listen to demos, reviews, etc. It will be quite obvious then what this library is really about.
> 
> 2- While I certainly agree that 99% of people think at HZ sound as “boom boom HZ”, when reading about him I was actually more impressed by the astounding depth of his sound design. I got the feeling he actually spends more time, effort and possibly skills in crafting “how” to record a certain cue vs. actually composing the cue. Or better said, that “how” to record is as important as “what” to record. In this sense, I believe that the sheer amount of mics positions available, players positions, etc. is “HZ signature” just as much as the Batman’s 16ths. And maybe that’s what actually separates his final sound from all the “wannabe HZ sound” guys.
> 
> Thanks again for your time and effort.



I agree with this part. It's hard to justify that kind of money on some strings if you are not making an income with it. That's an RME Babyface or a MOTU unit. That's an upgrade to the latest Intel components, some SSDs.


----------



## TravB

With tremendous respect, admiration, and interest to what both Daniel James and Hans Zimmer do, this thread has been a fascinating read and insight into human perception. In our world of instant gratification, I fully understand Daniel's disappointment based on his expectations. For my part, while I LOVE and covet the "bombastic" sound Daniel writes about, I personally have no real or current need for it as someone who so far has only scored shitty no-budget shorts that no one will ever see. I was seriously afraid HZ Strings would ONLY be the HUGE sound that typically doesn't have a place in the tiny little stories I work on -- so in that respect, I was pleasantly surprised by the quieter and unusual offerings in HZ Strings. Still, for Daniel, I was actually heartbroken at the end of his first look video. I would love to hear what Daniel would produce had HZ Strings been what he'd hope for. But all may not be lost...

It is not lost on me that today is April 1st, and I can now see what is REALLY going on. This controversy has been one of the most BRILLIANT marketing ploys ever in the history of a sample library! You see, Spitfire, Hans, and James had this all planned from the beginning, and have done a masterful job at pulling us all in... and pulling our legs! I mean come on, NOT shipping a working Legato when Spitfire knows that's among the very first things we're all interested in? Nobody does that... unless it's on purpose.  And you all know as well as I do, a forthcoming update to HZ Strings will include DJ Bombastic articulations and mixes from "classic" HZ scores. Can't wait to hear them. Well done Spitfire!!


----------



## Soundhound

Fascinating thread. Except for the silly whining about bad language. I'm offended by people who are offended by cursing.


----------



## Garry

Lots of great points on all sides in this very informative thread. 

I'm by no means the first to say it, but I do think we as consumers should be pushing Spitfire, with our collective voice, to do at least one or the other of these: (i) *allow licence transfers* OR (ii) *allow time-limited demo downloads*, so that people can try the library before committing to it. When the asking price is $800, and the mantra is that you need to spend time to learn this library and get to grips with its capabilities, then I feel at least ONE of the options above is a fair request. Only this way, can you make a truly informed decision. 

I think Spitfire did their very best to honestly produce the best library they could; subsequent comments from Paul, Christian and Hans have articulated that vision with greater depth, and predictably, it has greatly satisfied the expectations of some, and not others. I also feel the people behind Spitfire are fair, honest and generous-hearted (as clearly evidenced by their many other offerings they make freely available, not forgetting their 1% charity donation). They are thoroughly engaged with their customer base (as evidenced by them personally frequenting this message board). As such, I feel they may indeed give consideration to this. But only if we, as the purchasing community, demand it with one voice - perhaps particularly for their higher priced offerings, such as HZS (or SCS, SSS or SSO). 

If this was in place - the likes of Daniel could happily say: thanks but no thanks (allowing the demo version time to elapse, or sell the license on) and applaud Spitfire for allowing its customers such choice; and all those happy with their purchase, could be truly relied upon for their support of the library (rather than in some cases it perhaps representing an avoidance of buyer's remorse).


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

novaburst said:


> I agree especially if you have got accustom to that instrument you used in that piece nothing else will do, but now take that same piano and play Star Wars with it, it want give you a HZ vibe or sound or make you start thinking oh wow this sounds like HZ, so your trying to sound like HZ while doing Star Wars piece just because you have something designed by him..........eh ...no
> 
> I can remember you @DarkestShadow posted a few of your piece's
> and you were worried because they sounded a little bit like HZ, quite a few listeners said yes it does and you should perhaps change the style up, even HZ him self joined the thread to encourage you to change it, the reason for that is because it was very close to a HZ composition.
> 
> I will take a guess and say I bet you did not use any HZ instrument's for those pieces, you simply just knew how a HZ piece was composed and that put you in danger of copy write.
> 
> Nearly every one has EastWest Hollywood strings including you, but we don't sound the same when we use them.
> 
> Different starting points, counter points, different intros, different timing, different understanding, different experience all adds to our complexity when writing music.
> 
> which is why just using what some one else uses is not enough you need to write like them too.





novaburst said:


> I agree especially if you have got accustom to that instrument you used in that piece nothing else will do, but now take that same piano and play Star Wars with it, it want give you a HZ vibe or sound or make you start thinking oh wow this sounds like HZ, so your trying to sound like HZ while doing Star Wars piece just because you have something designed by him..........eh ...no
> 
> I can remember you @DarkestShadow posted a few of your piece's
> and you were worried because they sounded a little bit like HZ, quite a few listeners said yes it does and you should perhaps change the style up, even HZ him self joined the thread to encourage you to change it, the reason for that is because it was very close to a HZ composition.
> 
> I will take a guess and say I bet you did not use any HZ instrument's for those pieces, you simply just knew how a HZ piece was composed and that put you in danger of copy write.
> 
> Nearly every one has EastWest Hollywood strings including you, but we don't sound the same when we use them.
> 
> Different starting points, counter points, different intros, different timing, different understanding, different experience all adds to our complexity when writing music.
> 
> which is why just using what some one else uses is not enough you need to write like them too.


Never said that there are instruments that sound so strongly like composer X that you'l never be able to escape that no matter what you play on it. I was just writing about tonal character in general and that instruments tend to have different timbres and characters which can change how the composition itself comes off and feels like. 
You are actually going pretty radical, stating that it's not gonna impact the vibe and character of the composition whether you use a guitar or a piano. I was then responding that for me every instrument or ensembles (even of the same type) has a different character. Not all, some sound very interchangable to me (when they to my ears lack character - sound generic).
I seem to respond to that pretty strongly since I'm able recognize most sample libraries in a piece if I know them - even though I don't own most of them.

Also "sound like" can mean two things - either the sound itself or the composition (or of course both together). My post about my potential Zimmer clones was purely about the composition. I don't think the raw sound of the little sketches (done in like 20-30 minutes, together) is in any way be interchangable with Hans Zimmer's.

You're also speaking in absolutes. Of course, if you're gonna play Mozart with any string library, it's not gonna sound like Hans Zimmer. But if you're gonna mockup Inception... you might wanna go with something like Hollywood strings and not Vsl Chamber strings. Because, while the sound itself doesn't make the composition it will still heavily contribute to how it feels like (or how close it sounds like to HZ or any other composer you aim to sound like).


----------



## KEM

I've been watching this thread unfold for awhile now and I can't say I've seen anything quite this dividing, I personally don't like the big, epic thing going on right now, to me it's overplayed and too predictable, so this library not being that is cool with me. I've been following Daniel for a few years now, and I know that's his sound, and I can agree with him on brands and expectations that come from them, so it makes sense that he would be disappointed given the kind of music he makes and what he expected out of the library.

I actually like how the library sounds, but I can't decide if I want to buy it over the Spitfire Symphonic Strings library, the Symphonic Orchestra bundle seems like a much better deal to me so I doubt I'll buy it, at least not for a long while.


----------



## Dr Belasco

The problem that Daniel pointed out was when compared to Jaeger. He didn't say the sound was bad on hzs at all but it was what you get for $599 versus $800. Personally, it would take me an age to get back a return on either library at that much cost, but if I was forced to choose then I would probably go for Jaeger because of variety and legato.


----------



## blougui

axb312 said:


> Very well put. Ignore the name. Ignore that its from Spitfire. Would you spend 800 USD or 600 USD for a limited, inconsistent and poorly executed set of articulations and a buggy release with a limited dynamic range.
> 
> I am surprised at the level of fanboyishness on here. I hope we can change this soon and force developers to see that as such we're unwilling to pay for overpriced libraries that don't meet expectations. The hope is that this will lower the barriers for entry and bring quality samples and instruments to everyone.


Well, I’m afraid the « we » you’re talking about is not such a realistic view of the field. And the frustrated expectations are, well, probably limited to a few vocal people here, at least for now.And if you feel it’s overpriced, then, do as I do : pass on it without commenting on how it should cost, may be.
Or may be you weee trolling.
Or were you playing 2nd degree ? And then I just made a fool of myself


----------



## axb312

blougui said:


> Well, I’m afraid the « we » you’re talking about is not such a realistic view of the field. And the frustrated expectations are, well, probably limited to a few vocal people here, at least for now.And if you feel it’s overpriced, then, do as I do : pass on it without commenting on how it should cost, may be.
> Or may be you weee trolling.
> Or were you playing 2nd degree ? And then I just made a fool of myself



Donno what playing 2nd degree is. And no I wasn't trolling (though Mr. Henson probably thinks I am) . Just being earnest. And please do speak up. What is the forum for if not to speak up? Maybe we can bring these sample library developers back to earth?


----------



## novaburst

DarkestShadow said:


> if you're gonna play Mozart with any string library, it's not gonna sound like Hans Zimmer. But if you're gonna mockup Inception... you might wanna go with something like Hollywood strings and not Vsl Chamber strings. Because, while the sound itself doesn't make the composition it will still heavily contribute to how it feels like (or how close it sounds like to HZ or any other composer you aim to sound like).



This


----------



## MarcelM

i agree with daniel on about everything. 

also the price tag is way too high and its a shame its that buggy and still gets released.


----------



## germancomponist

Allein die verschiedenen Mic Positionen erlauben uns, beste Ergebnisse zu erzielen! Ich bin mir sicher, dass Hans und Alan sehr genau wissen, wie man einen guten Sound erreicht! Zum Beispiel der Doppler Effekt, den man erzielen kann, indem man das Audio fúr die rear speakers mit einem kleinen Delay abspielt, und das audio einen tick runtergestimmt hat. Sorry, das Tablet, auf dem ich gerade Schreibe das funktioniert schlecht


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

germancomponist said:


> Allein die verschiedenen Mic Positionen erlauben uns, beste Ergebnisse zu erzielen! Ich bin mir sicher, dass Hans und Alan sehr genau wissen, wie man einen guten Sound erreicht! Zum Beispiel der Doppler Effekt, den man erzielen kann, indem man das Audio fúr die rear speakers mit einem kleinen Delay abspielt, und das audio einen tick runtergestimmt hat. Sorry, das Tablet, auf dem ich gerade Schreibe das funktioniert schlecht



Post of the week.


----------



## germancomponist

yeah, my tablet is spinning.....


----------



## Consona

Rctec said:


> Ok. Which way do you want me to go? DANIEL wants me to go backwards, which is exactly what that percussion library represents. This was an attempt to re-do the big Drums we used in the past(!) on things like “Gladiator” or “Batman Begins”, because I thought we where Done with that. That, by it’s nature, makes it quite narrow, but very specific to that style of music...
> “MOS” and “BvS” was the future, i don’t think those movies where even out yet, or written yet, so it wasn’t my ‘sound’ yet. And if you can’t get the big action “Batman” hits out of what we did (Alan or my mixes - which are processed to fuck) or the beginnings of “MoS” out of JunkieXl and Steve Lipson’s mixes ( because that’s where Junkie developed the “MoS” sound) - I can only say that this proves my point.
> 
> We gave you the same sounds and tools I used. In fact, unless you are listenening to the movies in surround off Blu Ray or have a cinema with Dolby surround handy, you have more of the sound available than the normal stereo you’d hear on a cd.
> 
> And I gave Urs Heckmann all the Zebra2 sounds that Howie and I had done for those old movies for free. I don’t work, get paid beyond the odd free update from Urs. I just think he does incredible work and it was my way of finishing a sonic chapter in my life by letting the sounds escape the nest, so to speak.
> 
> So if you can’t get a fffuckinglymassiveblowouttyeconesofanycinema sound in the world with those, it’s not the fault of the samples we gave you.
> 
> So now, explain to me Exactly what you’re doing, how you’re doing it and why it’s not working?!?
> 
> ...But that’s why I want to go FORWARDS. Make tools for Music that hasn’t been written yet. Because if I give you the old ‘Epic’ stuff, you’re still under the impression that it’s not big, loud, edgy, epic, punchy enough.
> 
> But you got to learn the basics of the process, at least... in “MoS” the Drums are compressed and eq’d and mastered again after the track was written. In the mix. And again on the dub stage. You can’t do a post-production mastering process that is appropriate for a piece of music until the Music is written - and surrounded by the sound-fx. It doesn’t say on the “Spitfire” box that it comes with a free Alan Meyerson to post-produce your tracks after you’ve written them.
> 
> You know, sometimes you give all the pretty clothes to an emperor and he just doesn’t know how to wear them....



I agree that the exact MoS sound is a sum of all the parts, some of which one cannot exactly replicate, like being Alan Meyerson. 

And I myself admitted those Snyder's films were not even out yet, so it was unfair to want those exact sounds in HZ Percs. So agreed there too.

And now, when there are the J XL's mixes, one should be able to get closer to the "fffuckinglymassiveblowouttyeconesofanycinema sound in the world" even though the MoS sound was "a future sound" at that time HZ Percs were created.

All I wanted to say is, those samples in that MoS remake track need more work to sound like MoS.


So point taken, and if there are no objections, let's move to the main and IMO more interesting topic now... 

When I'm thinking about it, maybe your "HZ" brand really is more about "something new", rather than "Batman strings + Inception brass", since, as I wrote previously, you reinvent yourself a lot from movie to movie. So yes, you are "The future guy", no doubt.

But as a counter-argument, when I bought Dark Zebra, I immediately thought "I've just got the HZ sound", and this is what Daniel was talking about, Dark Zebra is the perfect example of that, of "HZ Brand" Daniel was discussing (at least that's how I understand it, sorry if I'm wrong and being misleading), since I just got exactly what "Hans Zimmer Batman synth sound" was, not patches I don't know from those movies, (which would be the equivalent of Spitfire's Hans Zimmer Strings, as Daniel understands them and I can see why he makes those arguments). I hope this part of this whole thing makes sense.
When I push a key with the "Batflaps Performer" patch loaded, what immediately pops up in my head is, "this is Hans Zimmer's Batman, the Hans Zimmer sound". And the reason for it is obvious, it's an iconic/distinctive sound from your soundtracks, it's what I expect when I think of "Hans Zimmer's Batman".

BUT, if your philosophy is to be "The future guy" and that this is your true brand, then ok, it's completely fine. It's just our (my and Daniel's and some other guys' I presume) understanding of that thing was based on another presupposition, i.e. "The past", "The Dark Zebra" presupposition. Daniel's Bugatti presupposition.

In the end, your brand is the sum of all those things. Dark Zebra AND Spitfire HZ Strings, only now it's clear to us, thanks to your posts, that your main focus is "The future", so we should approach your HZ sample libraries/whatever else brand with that in mind. Whether some of us like it or not. 





(And since you've replied to my post, here's that embarrassing but totally necessary fanboy moment...  Thank you very much for your collaboration with Zack Snyder, I absolutely loved MoS and BvS UE, his imagery together with your music totally get me every time I watch those films, shame his Justice League (and plans for JL2) ended up the way it ended up...  And of course big thanks for The Dark Knight, my favorite movie ever. ...And I'm really curious about your X-Men: Dark Phoenix work, hope "the future" approach is there at maximum.  Cheers! )


----------



## Kony

Vanni said:


> I would assume that the overwhelming majority of buyers will actually do some research before buying, and listen to demos, reviews, etc. It will be quite obvious then what this library is really about


Yeah, you mean by watching reviews by early adopters like DJ...? A bit unfair to say DJ should wait for a review given the amount of reviews he's done....


----------



## Drundfunk

Mike Fox said:


> Since the library doesn't try to excel at the big and epic, I'm a little thrown off when Spitfire emphasizes, "thunderous cellos". Am I missing something, or is that left open for interpretation as well? And yes, people have different ideas about what HZ represents, but the repeated problem I keep seeing in defense of this library is people are overlooking such a critical part of Zimmer's signature sound. Instead, people are defending HZ Strings by claiming there are more artistic sides to HZ than just the bombastic, and that's what HZ Strings is more about. That's so true! But why leave out such a classic and iconic element that also represents the living legend we all know and love?
> 
> Btw, HZ Strings is being aimed at EVERYONE who compose music, "developed primarily for composers, by composers", not just the elite professionals who don't have to worry about cash or resources. If an $800 string library can't load a bass and cello patch without using 5GB of ram, I can't help but question the kind of programming that took place to produce such inefficient results. That inefficiency shouldn't have anything to do with what type of library this is or is not. So is it an unfair comparison? Or is it something a potential buyer should be concerned about?



As I mentioned before I'm leaning towards Daniel's side, simply because I also associate this sound with HZ first. I'm also with you and Daniel when you say the marketing is wrong. Yes it is, but I'm also not naive. The moment money is involved it's always a business that's why I don't give a damn what marketing and advertisement is telling me. Those are the things which intrigue me to look further into it. I'm actually looking for a string library at the moment and when HZS was announced I was excited "yeah a library from the guy who did Inception. This is going to be epic!". But then I listened to the demos and looked into the articulation list and I knew right away that it's probably not what I'm looking for. After watching Daniel's video I am convinced I made the right decision. The thing costs 600/800 euros. I can live a whole month with that amount of money. I'd gladly spend it, but for the right thing which will be probably Jaeger (and I'm waiting till Black Friday). Apart from that, I'm not overlooking the epic side of HZ. It's simply not in this library. Maybe they make another one dedicated to epic and huge, maybe not. I think HZ already gave a lot of insight why this specific library isn't about huge and epic. Also I can already imagine a parallel universe where they did exactly that and people there are complaining that they already have multiple options for epic and they expected something "more" from HZ. 

Well the library is definitely not aimed towards you and me since we both don't seem to have the computer specs to use it properly. Obviously you can buy it if you have the amount of money, but I personally couldn't justify buying it, so I simply don't buy it. Probably wouldn't use it that much. I can't tell you why the patches take up so much ram. I have no experience in developing libraries. Maybe it has to do with the amount of microphone positions? Maybe it's the new engine. Hell I don't know. All I know that it's too much for my computer. So either I upgrade my computer, freeze tracks left and right, or I pass. For various reasons I choose the third option. I also highly disagree with your statement "being aimed at EVERYONE who compose music". That's simply marketing again. Composing with libraries is an extremely expensive hobby. There are so many, especially young composers who simply don't have the money to go and buy libraries at their taste (not to mention the computer and other equipment they need). I think they can be lucky that nowadays the composer's cloud exists, wish that existed when I started. You are not entitled to own the library. If the price tag is too high for you, then accept it and move on. I'm just glad that libraries don't cost 1k+ anymore, because otherwise I'd probably starving now. Also I think that many professionals have to think twice before buying the library. So yes, the overall product seems to be aimed at people who have the money and the computer to run it, which is not the guy with his 16GB ram laptop, or me with a 32gb ram machine, or even you with 64gb.


----------



## Kony

Puzzlefactory said:


> Don’t have either.
> 
> But the point is, “out of the box” isn’t a fair comparison.
> 
> Only by balancing the levels so they both hit the same dB at max dynamics, will you get a fair comparison.


Here's a link to the bit where DJ compares the libraries so you can judge for yourself.


----------



## Mike Fox

Drundfunk said:


> As I mentioned before I'm leaning towards Daniel's side, simply because I also associate this sound with HZ first. I'm also with you and Daniel when you say the marketing is wrong. Yes it is, but I'm also not naive. The moment money is involved it's always a business that's why I don't give a damn what marketing and advertisement is telling me. Those are the things which intrigue me to look further into it. I'm actually looking for a string library at the moment and when HZS was announced I was excited "yeah a library from the guy who did Inception. This is going to be epic!". But then I listened to the demos and looked into the articulation list and I knew right away that it's probably not what I'm looking for. After watching Daniel's video I am convinced I made the right decision. The thing costs 600/800 euros. I can live a whole month with that amount of money. I'd gladly spend it, but for the right thing which will be probably Jaeger (and I'm waiting till Black Friday). Apart from that, I'm not overlooking the epic side of HZ. It's simply not in this library. Maybe they make another one dedicated to epic and huge, maybe not. I think HZ already gave a lot of insight why this specific library isn't about huge and epic. Also I can already imagine a parallel universe where they did exactly that and people there are complaining that they already have multiple options for epic and they expected something "more" from HZ.
> 
> Well the library is definitely not aimed towards you and me since we both don't seem to have the computer specs to use it properly. Obviously you can buy it if you have the amount of money, but I personally couldn't justify buying it, so I simply don't buy it. Probably wouldn't use it that much. I can't tell you why the patches take up so much ram. I have no experience in developing libraries. Maybe it has to do with the amount of microphone positions? Maybe it's the new engine. Hell I don't know. All I know that it's too much for my computer. So either I upgrade my computer, freeze tracks left and right, or I pass. For various reasons I choose the third option. I also highly disagree with your statement "being aimed at EVERYONE who compose music". That's simply marketing again. Composing with libraries is an extremely expensive hobby. There are so many, especially young composers who simply don't have the money to go and buy libraries at their taste (not to mention the computer and other equipment they need). I think they can be lucky that nowadays the composer's cloud exists, wish that existed when I started. You are not entitled to own the library. If the price tag is too high for you, then accept it and move on. I'm just glad that libraries don't cost 1k+ anymore, because otherwise I'd probably starving now. Also I think that many professionals have to think twice before buying the library. So yes, the overall product seems to be aimed at people who have the money and the computer to run it, which is not the guy with his 16GB ram laptop, or me with a 32gb ram machine, or even you with 64gb.


I can't speak for Daniel, but If you read my post earlier in this thread, you'll see that I came to the same conclusions he did after listening to the demos and watching the walkthroughs, which is why didn't purchase the library in the first place (which makes you and I in the same boat). Regardless, that doesn't make the main argument any less valid.

I'm really not sure what else to say in regards to the ram issue. Even If I had a system that could handle HZ Strings with pure ease, I would still hold the same opinion. 

Take care, and best of luck to you.


----------



## Alex Fraser

I'm waiting for some audio to bounce, so whilst my ancient iMac runs the numbers..
One listen to the demos and walkthrough on the SA site made it clear what sort of library this was prior to release. Marketing and brand name aside, it was there for all to hear.

I don't get the angst, especially 18 pages of it. (Front and back!)


----------



## muziksculp

Question : What's the bottle mic good for ?


----------



## Kony

Alex Fraser said:


> Marketing and brand name aside, it was there for all to hear


Actually, I think you'll find that there were no legato examples posted prior to release - you can draw your own conclusions as to why that was


----------



## Alex Fraser

Kony said:


> Actually, I think you'll find that there were no legato examples posted prior to release - you can draw your own conclusions as to why that was


Andy Blaney’s demo. Stuffed to the brim with legato.


----------



## CT

Alex Fraser said:


> Andy Blaney’s demo. Stuffed to the brim with legato.



Great sounding legato, at that.


----------



## Kony

Alex Fraser said:


> Andy Blaney’s demo. Stuffed to the brim with legato.


Have you got a link?


----------



## axb312

And apparently now the intro pricing ends on 11th April. I assume this means the bugs will be resolved today
/ tomorrow giving people enough time to review a non buggy product and inform other's opinions....?


----------



## axb312

Kony said:


> Have you got a link?



https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/hans-zimmer-strings/


----------



## Kony

axb312 said:


> https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/hans-zimmer-strings/


Have you got a direct link to the Andy Blaney demo?


----------



## axb312

Kony said:


> Have you got a direct link to the Andy Blaney demo?


----------



## Kony

axb312 said:


>



Cool thanks! I was referring to video demos though. So this must have been produced before...



christianhenson said:


> Did we release it with a bug? Yes, the legato thing, and we're a bit red faced about it but it crept into the release version without us knowing


----------



## Rctec

acomposer said:


> I am not too sure about this Rctec. I have seen Amadeus 13 times and only recall one instance of the 'F' word (in the scene where Wolfgang rages about his "fuck*ng harpsichord breaking again"). Yes, in such extreme circumstances one can understand the use of profanity. It is fair to say that I would resort to such language myself in a similar situation (perhaps when my Pan Pipes become overly moist, for example.)
> 
> Harpsichords are difficult instruments to repair at the best of times and the last thing one needs is a G-string snapping whilst constructing an intricate fugal exposition in one's Symphony.



AND THERE YOU HAVE IT! :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_and_scatology


----------



## Daniel James

Rctec said:


> AND THERE YOU HAVE IT! :
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_and_scatology



Well shit!

-DJ


----------



## Kony

Perhaps Mozart had Tourettes...?


----------



## tehreal

Rctec said:


> AND THERE YOU HAVE IT! :
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_and_scatology



Same with Bartók:

"In his 2002 book [The Untouchable: Bartók and the Scatological] about his father, Peter Bartók told stories about the composer that had never seen print before. Most surprising perhaps for readers used to the image of the rigorous, disciplined, morally uncompromising Bartók were Peter Bartók's descriptions about the composer's childish, obscene jokes. Despite the abundance of documentary evidence, scholars kept an embarrassed silence about the scatological nature of Bartók's humor."


----------



## Rctec

Daniel James said:


> Well shit!
> 
> -DJ


Well, shit, Daniel... did you see my very long response in this thread about you? The one about McDonalds? No response???

In the words of the Devine Mozart : “Dann kannst du mich am arsch lecken!” 

And giving you the benefit of the doubt that you either didn’t see it, or my intelligent prose left you speechless  (Yes, yes, I’m putting smiley faces in. I don’t want some twat to misunderstand words tinged with a light dusting of irony) suddenly made me think about a small philosophical point that might have escaped you about the methodology in your reviewing technique: it’s the usual, first impression ‘walk-through’. It’s on par with gleaning information by googeling something. Or finding out your facts from FaceBook. It presents you with information - not Knowledge. Big difference. And - whatever you want to say about the marketing - it’s at best, information (even though I thought the thin red line against the black was hinting at something a bit more poetic and refined). But somethings can’t be fully judged or comprehended by just surface information. Don’t marry The Girl after a first drink! To make anything as complex as a musical instrument speak beyond the superficial means you have to take the time to sit still, explore the very inside core of the sound and get the deeper knowledge to form a connection with it and you. You can’t just jump from pre-set to pre-set. That is - to me the definition of speed-dating. 

I keep (and I know you feel this, too, being constantly challenged on the same points...) repeating myself : No, I never saw this as the one stop string library. I never saw this as a legacy idea. I saw this - and it was always about was it useful to me to take things in a new direction - as just another personal library. The legacy part was an accumulation of working with all the techniques and musicians that over the last 30+ Years have gotten me to the here and now. Would have done it anyway, just kept it to myself (I have a different contract with the musicians than “Spitfire”. It actually makes it legally quite hard to release my personal library...)

@Daniel James, have a look, see if you can answer some of my points from the other text...
I do like having this discussion out in the open on this site. Makes me think and learn...and maybe pick up a bit of knowledge on the way...

-Hz-


----------



## NoamL

ism said:


> Clearly the "Hans Zimmer Sound" - in the Daniel-Jamesian sense of the term - is *very much alive and generative in the hands of a very passionate group of people*



Hey @ism, very well said. @miket wrote in another thread: 

_I feel that there are a number of recent composers, both in and out of the film world, who only *touched* on certain new possibilities, but because the pieces/scores they did it in are so well-known and revered, *it's been assumed that there's nothing more to discover in that realm. I think that's the wrong assumption.*_

HZ may never want to write another BRAMM again, but that doesn't prevent other people from continuing to explore the idea of impactful brass and string ostinatos, with very interesting results IMO. There is still "something more to discover."

But I think this process of "keeping a sound alive" and fully exploring it, has become flatly impossible in film scoring. Even if HZ _wanted_ to take his broken Holmes piano with him into Dunkirk or BR2049, he couldn't get away with it! The continual reinvention and specificity-to-picture is not just his shtick, it has now become how films are scored, period. 

I think writing _away_ from picture, in a sense is liberating because you can keep exploring whatever sound you want. If you want to keep writing BRAMMs then you can. It becomes a different kind of challenge... you have to do something to make your big-bollocks-orchestral-hits just as exciting and SURPRISING as the original. I mean all library writers are fundamentally chasing the "emotional high" of the originals, Mind Heist, Time, Requiem For A Dream, Sunshine Adagio in D, In The House In A Heartbeat, and all the other tracks that established trailer music "Archetypes."


----------



## Daniel James

Rctec said:


> You had some sort of temp score in your head.



I will definitely conceded on the first point, as I said before alot of this is with my understanding of what Hans Zimmer means. The temp score analogy is a good one here, I have listened to all your scores and in my head defined what through line connects them all. The result of which to me is what constitutes Hans Zimmer. Now I might be wrong, but I feel like you have spent more time with the man Hans Zimmer than me, so you have more points with which to calibrate the through-line of what you feel defines Hans Zimmer, and I can see how our definitions could differ.



Rctec said:


> And the “Metallica” example is a little unfair. The reason - and you know this - I got out of rock was the simple expectation a band has to fulfill in repeating what becomes ‘their’ sound. There are too many examples (including, I believe, from Metallica themselves) where the artist has to fight - and usually loose - their fight with the record company for trying a new sound. Who knows if Metallica really want to secretly do a ‘psychedelic (sp?) country and western hip hop’ album next? That’s why I got into film and never had a record deal....for the freedom to try new and weird things.
> But back to the library... first of all, maybe you need to give it a bit more time than a quick meal at McDonalds? (I know...5 hours is more like a pub-crawl, not McDonalds, but I think it’s a better metaphor) Maybe the whole point of all this is to bring something that challenges you to - stealing from Chris Nolan here - Dream A Little Bigger?



The Metallica comparison was like using an extreme example to show the point. Obviously with you the brand Hans Zimmer is way more ambiguous than Metallica....one who has no two scores sound exactly alike and one who plays the exact style/genere with every album. Metallica example is black and white, Hans Zimmer situation is more grey. But as I said above, when you listen to one artist there is something that carries across their work that makes it so that even if the genre is different it still _sounds_ like them. That 'through-line' defines what makes something sound like that artist.

When John Williams did Catch Me If You Can, the score didn't sound anything like Star Wars but we still _*knew*_ it was John Williams.

So yes while one can't just point to a film or exact example of a cue, there is something that ties all the work you do together, and that is what brand Hans Zimmer means. And I think (judging by the comments) that there are many people who see the same throughline as me.

And your bloody right I plan to spend more time with it, I spent $600 on it, i'm not going to trash it over me misunderstanding what it was. If you watch the video I do enjoy a lot of the content there. I say many times how I love certain sounds and textures. I had issues with more its purpose to me as a sample library. I have talked a few times about my issues with all the issues, but there is definitely things in here I will be using for sure. I'm not a total twat, I will use anything that I feel pushes my work forward. So I actually like a lot about it but obviously the bad parts are the juiciest to discuss and argue over....as it is in any type of journalism these days.



Rctec said:


> Whatever the technical problems with a new sampler, they’ll get fixed (I wish you’d all have ‘closed’ systems like I do... we can really beta test things then. The price of technological anarchy is ...anarchy). But - is the underlying, fundamental sound, performance and recording solid and of a quality to stand the test of time and something that can inspire?



Other than the legatos and dodgy volume jumps I was actually ok with the engine. Ran better for me that I expected, even under heavy load.

I have some grief with the UI design but thats been discussed already.



Rctec said:


> I never would use the words “a revolutionary, groundbreaking product”...



But Spitfire marketing team does. With everything. Regardless of what it is. I think this one even got "Historic"



Rctec said:


> I don’t want to be a brand.



For that to happen you would have to have been nothing, seen nothing, done nothing. We are all brands, defined by the through-line of our actions. We all know what it means to get a bit Hitler-ish...not exactly but we all have a good idea what it means. You have a very public legacy of what you have done, so to people on the outside we all get the general idea of what defines your brand....and being on the inside of the brand will never get to see what brand Hans Zimmer means, to us. This is where a good product manager steps in and explains to you the expectations of what your brand will mean. "If we put Hans Zimmer on the box, people will expect xyz". And you might disagree but thats why you need someone who is honest and can tap into what the brand means to most people.

But yes we definitely have a different idea of what the name Hans Zimmer on a product meant. To you, you are just a normal guy who had a lucky break, to others, in some cases you are revered as a god like creature from norse mythos! <-----those people exist, I have seen them on Facebook!!!

I don't fault you in any way for wanting to get into samples, I am 100% for it, I want waaaay more of it, I just feel like you need to get a good project manager guiding what the expectations of the public will be if you do library XYZ......for examples when you do Hans Zimmer brass I am expecting that Inception brass section somewhere. Everyone at Spitfire must already know that in the core of their bones. Someone managing that project needs to make that expectation clear, then as a team you decide how to manage that expectation with the customers...doing it or not doing it for whatever reason, and then that needs to be communicated to cunts like me so if it isn't there, I know why and I will be able to temper my expectations accordingly. Like I say regardless of if you want to be a brand or think you are, you are enough of one that people (rightly or wrongly) have expectations of what that name means when paired to a product.

-DJ


----------



## tehreal

Garry said:


> [...]
> 
> I'm by no means the first to say it, but I do think we as consumers should be pushing Spitfire, with our collective voice, to do at least one or the other of these: (i) *allow licence transfers* OR (ii) *allow time-limited demo downloads*, so that people can try the library before committing to it. When the asking price is $800, and the mantra is that you need to spend time to learn this library and get to grips with its capabilities, then I feel at least ONE of the options above is a fair request. Only this way, can you make a truly informed decision.
> 
> [...]



This needs to happen (not with just Spitfire, of course, but with every company that sells expensive libraries). BTW the point is NEVER off-topic when critiquing libraries.

If I'm not mistaken, VSL offers license transfers as well as the concept of Audition Credits (online real-time trials of libraries). Unfortunately they exclude some big libs from trial like Synchron strings, but at least you can transfer.

If companies continue to disallow either (as is their right) perhaps some folks should band together to create a non-profit subscription service to allow real-time trials for anyone. This is a discussion for another day but please keep it in mind.


----------



## Kyle Preston

This thread...this god damn thread.


----------



## Ivan Mayboroda

@Rctec Hi, Hans. Are you planning on doing your own demos with HZ Strings?


----------



## Rctec

Daniel James said:


> I will definitely conceded on the first point, as I said before alot of this is with my understanding of what Hans Zimmer means. The temp score analogy is a good one here, I have listened to all your scores and in my head defined what through line connects them all. The result of which to me is what constitutes Hans Zimmer. Now I might be wrong, but I feel like you have spent more time with the man Hans Zimmer than me, so you have more points with which to calibrate the through-line of what you feel defines Hans Zimmer, and I can see how our definitions could differ.
> 
> 
> 
> The Metallica comparison was like using an extreme example to show the point. Obviously with you the brand Hans Zimmer is way more ambiguous than Metallica....one who has no two scores sound exactly alike and one who plays the exact style/genere with every album. Metallica example is black and white, Hans Zimmer situation is more grey. But as I said above, when you listen to one artist there is something that carries across their work that makes it so that even if the genre is different it still _sounds_ like them. That 'through-line' defines what makes something sound like that artist.
> 
> When John Williams did Catch Me If You Can, the score didn't sound anything like Star Wars but we still _*knew*_ it was John Williams.
> 
> So yes while one can't just point to a film or exact example of a cue, there is something that ties all the work you do together, and that is what brand Hans Zimmer means. And I think (judging by the comments) that there are many people who see the same throughline as me.
> 
> Thanks, Daniel!
> 
> And your bloody right I plan to spend more time with it, I spent $600 on it, i'm not going to trash it over me misunderstanding what it was. If you watch the video I do enjoy a lot of the content there. I say many times how I love certain sounds and textures. I had issues with more its purpose to me as a sample library. I have talked a few times about my issues with all the issues, but there is definitely things in here I will be using for sure. I'm not a total twat, I will use anything that I feel pushes my work forward. So I actually like a lot about it but obviously the bad parts are the juiciest to discuss and argue over....as it is in any type of journalism these days.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than the legatos and dodgy volume jumps I was actually ok with the engine. Ran better for me that I expected, even under heavy load.
> 
> I have some grief with the UI design but thats been discussed already.
> 
> 
> 
> But Spitfire marketing team does. With everything. Regardless of what it is. I think this one even got "Historic"
> 
> 
> 
> For that to happen you would have to have been nothing, seen nothing, done nothing. We are all brands, defined by the through-line of our actions. We all know what it means to get a bit Hitler-ish...not exactly but we all have a good idea what it means. You have a very public legacy of what you have done, so to people on the outside we all get the general idea of what defines your brand....and being on the inside of the brand will never get to see what brand Hans Zimmer means, to us. This is where a good product manager steps in and explains to you the expectations of what your brand will mean. "If we put Hans Zimmer on the box, people will expect xyz". And you might disagree but thats why you need someone who is honest and can tap into what the brand means to most people.
> 
> But yes we definitely have a different idea of what the name Hans Zimmer on a product meant. To you, you are just a normal guy who had a lucky break, to others, in some cases you are revered as a god like creature from norse mythos! <-----those people exist, I have seen them on Facebook!!!
> 
> I don't fault you in any way for wanting to get into samples, I am 100% for it, I want waaaay more of it, I just feel like you need to get a good project manager guiding what the expectations of the public will be if you do library XYZ......for examples when you do Hans Zimmer brass I am expecting that Inception brass section somewhere. Everyone at Spitfire must already know that in the core of their bones. Someone managing that project needs to make that expectation clear, then as a team you decide how to manage that expectation with the customers...doing it or not doing it for whatever reason, and then that needs to be communicated to c**** like me so if it isn't there, I know why and I will be able to temper my expectations accordingly. Like I say regardless of if you want to be a brand or think you are, you are enough of one that people (rightly or wrongly) have expectations of what that name means when paired to a product.
> 
> -DJ


----------



## Rctec

Thanks, Daniel!


----------



## Rctec

Ivan Mayboroda said:


> @Rctec Hi, Hans. Are you planning on doing your own demos with HZ Strings?



Yup. Its called "the Next Movie"... I'm never quite in the position to write unless its for a deadline breathing down my neck...
-Hz-


----------



## Kony

Rctec said:


> Yup. Its called "the Next Movie"
> -Hz-


Very much looking forward to X-Men: Dark Phoenix....

I've only just realised you did the opener for Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 - always enjoyed listening to that when loading up the game


----------



## Daniel James

Rctec said:


> Thanks, Daniel!



Anytime mate.

-DJ


----------



## KEM

It's nice to see that things are staying (relatively) civil in here haha.


----------



## axb312

Daniel James said:


> Anytime mate.
> 
> -DJ


Hi Daniel ,

Sent you a PM - please reply when you have the time...Thank you.


----------



## Brendon Williams

Kyle Preston said:


> This thread...this god damn thread.



Why are you still reading this?
Wait, why am _I _still reading this?! 
Ah, crap...


----------



## mc_deli

Last night DJ saved my life from a broken heart


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Kony said:


> Here's a link to the bit where DJ compares the libraries so you can judge for yourself.




Can’t really see him matching peak levels in the video. He seems to be comparing shorts and how fast they can handle.


----------



## Jay Panikkar

Wait a minute... WTF? This is all _wrong! _

Don't you people know know "how 2 internetz"? You're not supposed to _agree_ on things! You're supposed to rage at each other using incoherent arguments, call each other trolls—throw in some ad hominem while you do it—and insult each others' mothers so we can stretch this thread to 50 pages.


----------



## Ron Kords

tehreal said:


> This needs to happen (not with just Spitfire, of course, but with every company that sells expensive libraries). BTW the point is NEVER off-topic when critiquing libraries.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, VSL offers license transfers as well as the concept of Audition Credits (online real-time trials of libraries). Unfortunately they exclude some big libs from trial like Synchron strings, but at least you can transfer.
> 
> If companies continue to disallow either (as is their right) perhaps some folks should band together to create a non-profit subscription service to allow real-time trials for anyone. This is a discussion for another day but please keep it in mind.


I really don't get this license transfer thing. Always honestly surprised that companies allow it.

Feels a bit like that thing where you eat half a meal and ask for your money back cause it's rubbish.

Love a trial period though...


----------



## tehreal

Ron Kords said:


> I really don't get this license transfer thing. Always honestly surprised that companies allow it.
> 
> Feels a bit like that thing where you eat half a meal and ask for your money back cause it's rubbish.
> 
> Love a trial period though...



Do you think you should have the right to drive your car every day for a year and then sell it to someone else?


----------



## Puzzlefactory

tehreal said:


> Do you think you should have the right to drive your car every day for a year and then sell it to someone else?



Bad analogy. Your only buying a “license to use” the library. 

So it’s more like renting a car and then sub-renting it to someone else.


----------



## tehreal

Puzzlefactory said:


> Bad analogy. Your only buying a “license to use” the library.
> 
> So it’s more like renting a car and then sub-renting it to someone else.



But I can cancel my rental agreement for a fee.

My analogy was more of a response to his meal analogy. I admit it's not a good analogy overall. My main concern is that these libraries can be very expensive and companies should allow transfers, trials or something. It's one of the main reasons I've never bought directly from Heavyocity but instead wait for NI to sell it.


----------



## Ron Kords

tehreal said:


> But I can cancel my rental agreement for a fee.
> 
> My analogy was more of a response to his meal analogy. I admit it's not a good analogy overall. My main concern is that these libraries can be very expensive and companies should allow transfers, trials or something. It's one of the main reasons I've never bought directly from Heavyocity but instead wait for NI to sell it.


My analogy isn't the best. My point really is that unless you delete all the samples from previous works then you're still 'using' the library. 

Maybe the whole sample library thing is young enough that companies need to offer this to compete but I would expect an industry wide 'policy' on no transfers eventually. At least amongst the big players...


----------



## axb312

Ron Kords said:


> My analogy isn't the best. My point really is that unless you delete all the samples from previous works then you're still 'using' the library.
> 
> Maybe the whole sample library thing is young enough that companies need to offer this to compete but I would expect an industry wide 'policy' on no transfers eventually. At least amongst the big players...



You would have the same issue with trials....how do you ensure samples are deleted and/ or not used in commercial productions even after the trial period is complete?

What needs to be available is better watermarking and automated tracking of content to spot these watermarks and possible copyright infringement.....

What I believe Devs should not do is put the anti-piracy burden on us...I used a library - till I'm pretty much sick of it/ bored with the sound...Why shouldn't I transfer it to someone else who can make more use of it, and at a discounted price?


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Ron Kords said:


> My analogy isn't the best. My point really is that unless you delete all the samples from previous works then you're still 'using' the library.
> 
> Maybe the whole sample library thing is young enough that companies need to offer this to compete but I would expect an industry wide 'policy' on no transfers eventually. At least amongst the big players...




More probable IMO is industry wide subscription models. At least with the developers with large catalogs.


----------



## JanR

Daniel James said:


> This is function over form, not as pretty but all the controls are instantly accessible. I would much rather have the option to work fast than to have all that wasted space. Its as if the designers have never seen an analog synth before....we can handle lots of parameters on one page.


This would be my wish also for HZ Piano and HZ percussion, to have all 16 mic positions in one patch on one screen all present and controllable. It works so counterintuitive to load up 16 individual signal patches to get all the single mic positions and scrolling up and down into kontakt between patches to make a mix. I appreciate the mic sets patches and individual signals, but I've always missed an all in one mic patch (and love the suggestion for a solo button for each mic).

I'm sure most people would LOVE to have all in one mic patches. This also goes for the BML/SSO line for that matter. So spitfire if your reading, please take it into consideration))

And to serve both the people who love simple and advanced interfaces, why not give both options, a tab for simple interface and tab for advanced with all controlls/mics present.


----------



## Valérie_D

Rctec said:


> AND THERE YOU HAVE IT! :
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_and_scatology




*Beginning of Amadeus, there you have it too


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

It would be interesting to see a second video once the issues are ironed out by Spitfire, where @Daniel James writes something in keeping with the spirit of the library. Now we've established it isn't a construction kit library for a handful of @Rctec scores from 2000-2005, it's something more experimental and ambitious.

As the early previews and demos suggested, this lib sounds as though it would suit something more stylistically aligned to Hannibal or Interstellar (or Dunkirk) than Pirates or Gladiator, so it would be interesting to hear Daniel ban himself from using a single spiccato patch and go off the rails a bit!

Regardless, it's been quite a civil exchange which is nice to see. I think it's important to have allow people to be critical but also to allow right of reply to the creators of the libraries. The community works best when we're all allowed to exchange ideas freely like this, and long may it continue!


----------



## Jay Panikkar

muziksculp said:


> Question : What's the bottle mic good for ?


For adding low end and also for sound design.


----------



## Noiro

Rctec said:


> You know, sometimes you give all the pretty clothes to an emperor and he just doesn’t know how to wear them....



This sums it up so well…

First of all, I want to express my deep respect to all of those who contributed to this string library and put in their hearts and their passion to make it as best as they can, from what we can see, it's pretty obvious they did!

Secondly, a warning to those who start to read this thread: The discussion is very amusing, but it will get you sucked in and addicted and it will eventually result in you having lost some precious hours reading all of it - which I did instead of continuing with my project.

Thanks Daniel for taking the time to give the community such an extended look at the library. Even if Rafael Nadal would do a review an a new tennis racket with the label „RF“ on it, it would still be Rafael Nadal playing Roger Federer’s racket, as only Roger can play like Roger, no matter the racket. It seems to me that you kind of expected the RF racket of 2006, while the product is the brand new racket of 2018. 

*Key Takeaway* for me: You will NOT be able to sound like HZ by buying this string library, not because the product is flawed, but because only he himself can. You can buy a sample library that he was involved in and HZ would maybe use himself to produce a piece (and that's great IMO). And if he does that, it will be a HZ piece, if you do the same, it will be a <Your name here> piece…

And I’m grateful for this last fact, as the world would be boring, static and dead without all its diversity. 

Best,
Manuel


----------



## James Everingham

7 year throwback for context anyone? This makes me feel old!!


----------



## Mike Fox

Ron Kords said:


> My analogy isn't the best. My point really is that unless you delete all the samples from previous works then you're still 'using' the library.
> 
> Maybe the whole sample library thing is young enough that companies need to offer this to compete but I would expect an industry wide 'policy' on no transfers eventually. At least amongst the big players...


No, you still are not using the library. If I were to rent a guitar from a music shop, record an album with it, then return the guitar so that someone else could rent it, how would I still be using the guitar? What you are still using are snapshots or imprints of what you did with the library when you "owned" the license. That's all. Due to the forbidden re-sale policy that so many developers force, licenses feel more like rentals than a product that I actually own. My analogy kinda falls short though, because once you download software, you can make more copies of it, and the dishonest people would probably still be using the software even after the license transfer took place. However, I don't think that's the reason why most developers don't allow license transfers. I think most developers don't allow license transfers, because it means less money for them, and they probably don't want to deal with the hassle of the license transfer process to begin with. I will say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for developers that do allow license transfers. Too often people have purchased a library only to be completely disappointed, and now they are stuck with it. I don't think that's right...at all. Walkthough videos are great, but even then, it's not enough. There needs to be a system that offers consumers the oppertunity to really get a feel for the library before they purchase it. I think a limited trial period would be the key.


----------



## Mike Fox

Noiro said:


> This sums it up so well…
> 
> First of all, I want to express my deep respect to all of those who contributed to this string library and put in their hearts and their passion to make it as best as they can, from what we can see, it's pretty obvious they did!
> 
> Secondly, a warning to those who start to read this thread: The discussion is very amusing, but it will get you sucked in and addicted and it will eventually result in you having lost some precious hours reading all of it - which I did instead of continuing with my project.
> 
> Thanks Daniel for taking the time to give the community such an extended look at the library. Even if Rafael Nadal would do a review an a new tennis racket with the label „RF“ on it, it would still be Rafael Nadal playing Roger Federer’s racket, as only Roger can play like Roger, no matter the racket. It seems to me that you kind of expected the RF racket of 2006, while the product is the brand new racket of 2018.
> 
> *Key Takeaway* for me: You will NOT be able to sound like HZ by buying this string library, not because the product is flawed, but because only he himself can. You can buy a sample library that he was involved in and HZ would maybe use himself to produce a piece (and that's great IMO). And if he does that, it will be a HZ piece, if you do the same, it will be a <Your name here> piece…
> 
> And I’m grateful for this last fact, as the world would be boring, static and dead without all its diversity.
> 
> Best,
> Manuel


Too bad your warning isn't on page 1.


----------



## mac

James Everingham said:


> 7 year throwback for context anyone? This makes me feel old!!




Daniel should make a video tutorial showing how he gets this Hans ostinato sound


----------



## rottoy

I'm trying to produce the latest dance hit using the best Spitfire has to offer; Hans Zimmer.
https://clyp.it/j05smwxe


----------



## Ron Kords

Mike Fox said:


> No, you still are not using the library. If I were to rent a guitar from a music shop, record an album with it, then return the guitar so that someone else could rent it, how would I still be using the guitar? What you are still using are snapshots or imprints of what you did with the library when you "owned" the license. That's all. Due to the forbidden re-sale policy that so many developers force, licenses feel more like rentals than a product that I actually own. My analogy kinda falls short though, because once you download software, you can make more copies of it, and the dishonest people would probably still be using the software even after the license transfer took place. However, I don't think that's the reason why most developers don't allow license transfers. I think most developers don't allow license transfers, because it means less money for them, and they probably don't want to deal with the hassle of the license transfer process to begin with. I will say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for developers that do allow license transfers. Too often people have purchased a library only to be completely disappointed, and now they are stuck with it. I don't think that's right...at all. Walkthough videos are great, but even then, it's not enough. There needs to be a system that offers consumers the oppertunity to really get a feel for the library before they purchase it. I think a limited trial period would be the key.


The guitar example is a convincing one but with samples you're licensing recordings (essentially). They're not just notes either. They are performances of notes, with incredibly high inherent value (cost of instrument, the years spent learning to play them). 

I wouldn't sign a contract that allowed my music to be sold or given to a third party with no recompense to me. I'm surprised that companies do.

In the U.K. there are protections in consumer law that allow return for full re-imbursement where the product or service does not 'perform as reasonably expected' but I'm yet to buy any library I didn't like where I thought that would be worth a shot.


----------



## Celestial Aeon

I might have a tad bit weird approach to sound libraries, but for me they are first and foremost about inspiration. I understand that many people think of them as first and foremost tools and if they can't utilise them 100%, they feel that the tool is not working. But for me it has given me a lot more freedom to think that instead of tools they are possibilities. If a sound library contains just a single articulation that makes me feel "whoa" or "damn this is nice" when I play with it, already that library has proven it's existence to me. If the price is 50$ then good, if it is 500$ then it is a bit of an ouch, but if I end up creating just a one good tune with it, it will probably earn itself back in the next year or two. I think if we end up arguing about what is the correct price for "the tool" and why is "the tool" like this and not like this, we sort of miss some important aspects of this whole trade. If you get inspired just a bit, it's already far beyond not having it.

This is one of the strong points of the Hans Zimmer Strings in my opinion. It is full of inspiring articulations and "magic" that is hard to value in numbers. I know I will be creating many many tunes with it.

Of course, this attitude sort of requires a situation where your budget is at least somewhat lenient so that you don't have to think too much about the price tags. But then again, most of the people arguing tend to be professionals so I don't think the budget is the main problem?


----------



## Mike Fox

Ron Kords said:


> The guitar example is a convincing one but with samples you're licensing recordings (essentially). They're not just notes either. They are performances of notes, with incredibly high inherent value (cost of instrument, the years spent learning to play them).
> 
> I wouldn't sign a contract that allowed my music to be sold or given to a third party with no recompense to me. I'm surprised that companies do.
> 
> In the U.K. there are protections in consumer law that allow return for full re-imbursement where the product or service does not 'perform as reasonably expected' but I'm yet to buy any library I didn't like where I thought that would be worth a shot.


Yes, sample libraries are licensed recordings/performences, even If it is a note per note production, but I don't see the correlation between that, and being allowed to re-sell a license. I think your point falls more along the lines of the complications that arise by modifying those notes, and then selling them as your own library. Regardless, some developers understand that not all customers are happy with their products, and they would rather leave the customer feeling satisfied than feeling burnt. I admire that. If developers aren't going to allow license transfers, they should at least allow trial periods.


----------



## Ron Kords

Mike Fox said:


> Yes, sample libraries are licensed recordings/performences, even If it is a note per note production, but I don't see the correlation between that, and being allowed to re-sell a license. I think your point falls more along the lines of the complications that arise by modifying those notes, and then selling them as your own library. Regardless, some developers understand that not all customers are happy with their products, and they would rather leave the customer feeling satisfied than feeling burnt. I admire that. If developers aren't going to allow license transfers, they should at least allow trial periods.


Yep, I agree re' the trial periods. There's one or two things I've bought recently that I wouldn't have done without trialling so I think it's a win/win in the main. I suppose piracy is the concern though apparently not as big an issue on companies own players. Maybe/hopefully we'll see more trialling.

We'll probably not agree re' re-sale 

I'm not a no re-selling dev' BTW! Just a surprised customer...


----------



## Garry

There will be some marketing people smiling gleefully if they could see how the meme, 'you are paying to license the product, you are not buying the product itself' has embedded itself in some of their customers' minds.

Why is a sample library any different than any other product?

It is not at all comparable to a rental: show me another example where you pay a single fee, own that for your lifetime, and pay no further fee, and it is still called a rental? All rentals I'm aware of require an ongoing fee to continue ongoing access to the product: house, car, lawnmower, you name it. Is there another rental agreement that says you pay once, you keep it in perpetuity, and never pay again?

It is not at all comparable to restaurant food: that is a consumable: if you eat the food, it cannot be eaten by another person who wants to take over your payment. Like any other non-consumable product, if it is in sufficient quality (and samples are pristine in this context, as they do not degrade in quality over time), there is no reason it should not be available for you to sell to another person as a second-hand product, having paid the initial asking price.

It is not a feasible argument to say that license transfers are not possible due to piracy, because there are numerous sample developers already providing evidence that this is not the case, and can be done effectively.

Similarly, it is not possible to argue that time-limited demos are not feasible, because there are again too many developers doing it to immediately prove this wrong. Ever heard of a little known product called Cubase - it comes on a 30 day trial period. Please don't the let marketeers convince you of such falsehoods - it's their job to do so, it's ours to see through it.

The reason developers don't feel the need to offer license transfers or limited duration demos is nothing to do with licensing or renting or feasibility, it's all to do with what the market will allow. Spitfire's products are of the highest quality - they are arguably the market leaders (I'm a highly satisfied customer of theirs). As such, they don't NEED to do either of these things. However, I think the question of demos and/or license transfers is relevant to bring up in the context of the HZS discussion for 2 reasons: (i) market leaders or not, Spitfire have shown themselves to be a highly principled and generous company, and I don't think whether the market can get away with them not doing this would be their only consideration as to whether to offer this or not - this cannot be said for all companies; (ii) this is a high priced library and they say you need to spend time to learn a new approach - no more block chords and volume to the max, and as such it can be hard from walkthroughs alone to evaluate prior to purchase what will be for many a considerable expense. Therefore, it is reasonable that the customer should either have the option to evaluate it under a trial period, OR sell on the license if after careful examination, they find it does not meet their expectations.

Although companies will have to consider the cost implications of trial demos and/or license transfers, imagine the difference in this thread if Daniel had been able to make the decision to not buy the product after the trial period. He is no longer $800 bucks down on a product that didn't meet his expectations. Would his response have been so visceral? Would he feel so let down? Or would he feel, 'nah, not f**ing for epic c***s like me - thanks, but no thanks.'  The absence of that negative exposure has a cost implication for companies. Similarly, others could have used the trial period and tried it out for themselves and not had to rely vicariously on other people's reviews. But in the absence of this, many potential customers are waiting on their purchase for the reviews of those like Daniel who are informed, have demonstrated ability, and provide honest opinions. As such, his opinion disproportionately carries cost implications. If companies want their products truly evaluated by all their customers to make up their own minds with the product in their own hands, rather than be vulnerable to the reviews of very few that can afford to be early adopters, then the trial period is an important, risk-free, and mutually-beneficial strategy to consider.


----------



## Daniel James

Garry said:


> Why is a sample library any different than any other product?



Because it falls into a part of law called Sound Recording Copyright. A sample library differs from a guitar because a guitar creates unique sounds with every note. A sample library is a collection of recorded performances covered under sound recording copyright.

Sample libraries are covered by the same laws and rules as if you were trying to use a lady gaga song in one of your tracks. You would need to obtain a licence in order to use it in derivative works. So lets say you got the permission and licence to use the lady gaga song in your track, you couldn't then just forward your licence on to someone else for a fee. Because firstly you still need the licence yourself for anything you have already used it in and secondly its not your licence to sell.

Just imagine every sample as if it was a Lady Gaga song and you get an idea of why you can't just sell it to someone else. If it was a CD of her songs for listening to, sure you could sell it, but you cant sell the specially obtained permission to make derivative works using it.

Thats just how that works and why it is different to selling a physical musical instrument. (BTW thats why it is easier to sample analog synths rather than digital ones, because the waveform samples in digital synths are essentially copyrighted performances....yup you heard me, the waveforms of digital synths are like tiny mini Lady Gaga recordings)

I know it sucks but we could spend the whole day arguing about copyright law and what shouldnt and shouldnt be considered fair, but the rules are the rules. If you want to change them start a movement or lobby your MP. You won't change much on Vi-Control 

-DJ


----------



## Garry

Daniel James said:


> Because it falls into a part of law called Sound Recording Copyright. A sample library differs from a guitar because a guitar creates unique sounds with every note. A sample library is a collection of recorded performances covered under sound recording copyright.
> 
> -DJ



So why are some companies allowed to do resales, and others are limited by the Sound Recording Copyright, preventing them doing so?


----------



## KEM

Man I just wanted to talk about some samples and now I'm getting a lesson in law from Daniel James, haha this is great.


----------



## Daniel James

Garry said:


> So why are some companies allowed to do resales, and others are limited by the Sound Recording Copyright, preventing them doing so?



I imagine some companies decide that firstly there is no way to actively prevent a user who has sold their licence from keeping the samples and continue to use them, so in that regard its anti piracy....an honour system doesn't usually work for most companies as an effective anti piracy measure.

Also you still need a licence for the copyrighted samples in your previous work using it. Some companies may be a bit loose on that but like it or not, it IS covered under the sound recording copyright. At the end of the day its up to the company, and its much more straight forward and legally sound to just say that you buy the licence and you cant resell it. Its like on a flight when they say you need to turn off your mobile phone, there are only a handful of phones that actually interfere with the flight but its much more simple practically and legally to just have everyone turn them off.

But this is a debate for a new topic. One we have had at length previously on VI. You should search it out. This isn't a new complaint by any stretch of the imagination.

-DJ


----------



## Ron Kords

Garry said:


> So why are some companies allowed to do resales, and others are limited by the Sound Recording Copyright, preventing them doing so?


In the case of Spitfire they pay royalties to the players - their contracts will prevent Spitfire from allowing the players work to be passed on / re-sold (I guess).


----------



## fretti

Garry said:


> So why are some companies allowed to do resales, and others are limited by the Sound Recording Copyright, preventing them doing so?


Isn't it less that the companies are allowed to do resales, but the company itself who allows reselling and transferring licenses from one person to another, as they are the ones who own the copyright for the samples. So I think it's their call what your are actually allowed to do with your samples and especially for smaller firms I don't see reselling to be practical/ economical. But there are probably a lot more reasons why most companies don't do that...


----------



## Garry

Daniel James said:


> At the end of the day its up to the company, and its much more straight forward and legally sound to just say that you buy the licence and you cant resell it.
> -DJ



Yes, that's precisely my point! Spitfire can decide to do this if they choose to, and we know that's empirically correct, because a quick perusal of the Classified section of this forum will show you just how many other companies do indeed choose this route. I don't pretend to know UK Copyright law, but this precedence clearly shows that even if you're correct that this is the limitation, then the company has the option to pursue against it or not. If they simply choose not to, then any infringement is of no consequence, and it can't be cited as a reason for not providing license transfers. There's just simply too much precedence here for this argument to hold water.



Daniel James said:


> But this is a debate for a new topic. One we have had at length previously on VI. You should search it out. This isn't a new complaint by any stretch of the imagination.


Yes, I recognise that, but I think the particular theme of this discussion makes it pertinent: Christian said he was disappointed with so many negative reviews when the product was only 24 hours old. Similarly, many have directed comments to you that you need to learn to use it more effectively before reaching the conclusions you made, and that it's not like any other library. In _this _context, the issue is newly relevant: if companies are going to argue that their products cannot be fully evaluated after 24hrs, well unfortunately, that is 24hrs after payment is fully and irrevocably made - so evaluate away! If instead, you would have had 14 days to evaluate, then Christian's point would have had greater weight, and I can't imagine you wouldn't have reviewed it on day 13, before you have time to decide whether what you will pay for it is aligned with what you think of it.

Also, just because the debate has been had before, is no reason to dismiss it now: change will only occur if the market demands it, and sometimes the market needs a little convincing of their purchasing power.


----------



## Garry

Ron Kords said:


> In the case of Spitfire they pay royalties to the players - their contracts will prevent Spitfire from allowing the players work to be passed on / re-sold (I guess).



Any company could make that case, and many do not - it's a choice, on the company's part.


----------



## Ron Kords

Garry said:


> Any company could make that case, and many do not - it's a choice, on the company's part.


I think the choice to reduce profits to ensure the players get their 'cut' is a good one...


----------



## Garry

Ron Kords said:


> I think the choice to reduce profits to ensure the players get their 'cut' is a good one...


I don't imagine other companies do not pay their players. Presumably they find a way to make the recompense to the players worth it to them (or else why would they do it), that doesn't come at the cost of the consumer's choice.


----------



## Daniel James

Garry said:


> Yes, that's precisely my point! Spitfire can decide to do this if they choose to, and we know that's empirically correct, because a quick perusal of the Classified section of this forum will show you just how many other companies do indeed choose this route. I don't pretend to know UK Copyright law, but this precedence clearly shows that even if you're correct that this is the limitation, then the company has the option to pursue against it or not. If they simply choose not to, then any infringement is of no consequence, and it can't be cited as a reason for not providing license transfers. There's just simply to much precedence here for this argument to hold water.
> 
> 
> Yes, I recognise that, but I think the particular theme of this discussion makes it pertinent: Christian said he was disappointed with so many negative reviews when the product was only 24 hours old. Similarly, many have directed comments to you that you need to learn to use it more effectively before reaching the conclusions you made, and that it's not like any other library. In _this _context, the issue is newly relevant: if companies are going to argue that their products cannot be fully evaluated after 24hrs, well unfortunately, that is 24hrs after payment is fully and irrevocably made - so evaluate away! If instead, you would have had 14 days to evaluate, then Christian's point would have had greater weight, and I can't imagine you wouldn't have reviewed it on day 13, before you have time to decide whether what you will pay for it is aligned with what you think of it.
> 
> Also, just because the debate has been had before, is no reason to dismiss it now: change will only occur if the market demands it, and sometimes the market needs a little convincing of their purchasing power.



I'm not dismissing the debate, I am saying this thread isn't the place to have it again. The messaging is a bit all over the place as it is.

As others have mentioned there are various reasons for people not allowing licence transfers, as Ron put it above, you also have to consider the licences agreements the companies have with the players too. For example in London you can get a buy out, but you can't just re-use the content on another film (unless I am mistaken on how the UK musicians union handles that but I am 99% sure that is accurate). So you could sample them but once you have sold the licence to someone, if they then resell it to someone else the company would owe the players royalty for you selling the licence....without the company getting any of the money from that sale.

With LA unions its a nightmare to even record film scores when it comes to rights and usage so I can only imagine what its like trying to get sampling rights let alone resale rights too.

Each territory has different considerations on who owns what when someone records something. Sometimes the player has a certain ownership, sometimes thats transferred to the person who records but under conditions. It varied wildly, and often, and over different territories....of which most companies sell samples internationally.

And as you mentioned you don't know UK copyright law, and I imagine most companies are more focused on creating products than worrying about the individual laws governing what people can and cant do with copyrighted recordings and in what reigon, who owns what rights to the recording and what reselling as a concept does to the overall relationship between company, player, and customer.

So personally I understand why most companies don't allow reselling. I am all for streaming demos like try-sound and the like, but I think reselling a licence is to much of a legal grey area to get involved in for most.

-DJ


----------



## Ron Kords

Garry said:


> I don't imagine other companies do not pay their players. Presumably they find a way to make the recompense to the players worth it to them (or else why would they do it), that doesn't come at the cost of the consumer's choice.


I'm not saying they don't pay their players.

Some probably pay a session fee only which is fine but session / points is always preferable for the musician and probably a better way to ensure that this whole orchestral sampling thing can continue to the standards we enjoy today.


----------



## Daniel James

Ron Kords said:


> I'm not saying they don't pay their players.
> 
> Some probably pay a session fee only which is fine but session / points is always preferable for the musician and probably a better way to ensure that this whole orchestral sampling thing can continue to the standards we enjoy today.



I would love to read a thread about developers talking about the rights and restrictions of recording live players. Garry, go set that up! Lets not discuss it in this thread XD

-DJ


----------



## fretti

Ron Kords said:


> I'm not saying they don't pay their players.
> 
> Some probably pay a session fee only which is fine but session / points is always preferable for the musician and probably a better way to ensure that this whole orchestral sampling thing can continue to the standards we enjoy today.


I'd say they do both (have to do both?!). As they probably pay a fee/ book the musician for a recording session.
Also I can only speak (more) surely for Germany (as I live there), but from my parents (who are both professional musicians) I know that they get paid for a recording session or whatever and then are "automatically eligible" for roalties (wich are here collected by the "GEMA", as there is for sure a company or so in every country that handles this stuff for musicians) or better said, get money whenever the recording generates an income....


----------



## Garry

Daniel James said:


> I'm not dismissing the debate, I am saying this thread isn't the place to have it again. The messaging is a bit all over the place as it is.



Yes, I do understand you're not trying to close down the discussion: I personally think it's relevant to have that discussion here, because of the reasons I mentioned of it being particularly relevant in this case, and that this is a discussion thread that has garnered a lot of attention, and without the concerted voice of the community, nothing will change; scurrying it off into its own obscure thread will not help.



Daniel James said:


> As others have mentioned there are various reasons for people not allowing licence transfers, as Ron put it above, you also have to consider the licences agreements the companies have with the players too. For example in London you can get a buy out, but you can't just re-use the content on another film (unless I am mistaken on how the UK musicians union handles that but I am 99% sure that is accurate). So you could sample them but once you have sold the licence to someone, if they then resell it to someone else the company would owe the players royalty for you selling the licence....without the company getting any of the money from that sale.



So are you saying that this is specific to UK law? If so, I'm sure that someone more knowledgable than me will correct us if it's the case that other sample libraries that have been recorded in London or anywhere else in the UK subject to the same laws, and the company allows license transfers. Is this true?



Daniel James said:


> With LA unions its a nightmare to even record film scores when it comes to rights and usage so I can only imagine what its like trying to get sampling rights let alone resale rights too.



So, where are all these many libraries being recorded that DO allow transfers? It seems many companies manage it, so are London and LA the exceptions? If so, and the market took a strong stance on insisting that resale was important, then I'm sure companies would quickly find a way to circumvent such issues.



Daniel James said:


> And as you mentioned you don't know UK copyright law, and I imagine most companies are more focused on creating products than worrying about the individual laws governing what people can and cant do with copyrighted recordings, who owns what rights to the recording and what reselling as a concept does to the overall relationship between company, player, and customer.



Nah, that's too easy mate: I don't buy the argument that companies (particularly those as big as Spitfire) are not allowing resales because of their ignorance of UK Copyright law. Again, that comes straight from the market team's table! 



Daniel James said:


> So personally I understand why msot companies don't allow reselling. I am all for streaming demos like try-sound and the like, but I think reselling a licence is to much of a legal grey area to get involved in for most.



Fair enough. I have to note of course that you are not exactly an impartial observer in this discussion! As both a consumer and a developer of sample libraries, you too will have to determine your policy on resales. I take it from this discussion, Hybrid Two will not be allowing resales?


----------



## Garry

Ron Kords said:


> I'm not saying they don't pay their players.
> 
> Some probably pay a session fee only which is fine but session / points is always preferable for the musician and probably a better way to ensure that this whole orchestral sampling thing can continue to the standards we enjoy today.


This is for the session players to negotiate directly with the companies. I'm not a session player. I'm a consumer, so I (we?) can't know if what you're saying is true, and is the reason for the resales position. But what I can know, is that as a consumer, I'm being asked to pay $800 for a product that I can't return, can't resale, and have to pay for on the basis of a couple of videos. I'm suggesting there's an imbalance there, and that the consumers, not to the exclusion or the detriment of the session players, should collectively argue for a fair deal.


----------



## Garry

Daniel James said:


> I would love to read a thread about developers talking about the rights and restrictions of recording live players. Garry, go set that up! Lets not discuss it in this thread XD
> 
> -DJ


As neither as a session player, nor a developer, I'm not sure I'm the right person. I do know some developers actively engaged in this discussion right now though who might consider taking that up...


----------



## fretti

Daniel James said:


> Lets not discuss it in this thread XD
> -DJ


Are you planning on doing an overview video for HZ strings (when your project is finished) like Jaeger etc.?


----------



## Anders Wall

rottoy said:


> I'm trying to produce the latest dance hit using the best Spitfire has to offer; Hans Zimmer.
> https://clyp.it/j05smwxe


Hahahahaaaa!

....

hahaha!!!

Not Shit mr. Rotty :-O

/Anders


----------



## Ron Kords

Garry said:


> This is for the session players to negotiate directly with the companies. I'm not a session player. I'm a consumer, so I (we?) can't know if what you're saying is true, and is the reason by the resales position. But what I can know, is that as a consumer, I'm being asked to pay $800 for a product that I can't return, can resale, and have to pay for on the basis of a couple of videos. I'm suggesting there's an imbalance there, and that the consumers, not to the exclusion or the detriment of the session players, should collectively argue for a fair deal.


Dan has summed it up far better than me.

What I can say as an recovering session musician is that Im not telling porkies and it's 99% why some companies can't allow re-sale.


----------



## rottoy

Addressing @Rctec directly, if you feel the music piece below is in bad taste, I'll swiftly remove it.
I assure you it was done with the most benign of intentions.



rottoy said:


> I'm trying to produce the latest dance hit using the best Spitfire has to offer; Hans Zimmer.
> https://clyp.it/j05smwxe


----------



## Daniel James

Garry said:


> Yes, I do understand you're not trying to close down the discussion: I personally think it's relevant to have that discussion here, because of the reasons I mentioned of it being particularly relevant in this case, and that this is a discussion thread that has garnered a lot of attention, and without the concerted voice of the community, nothing will change; scurrying it off into its own obscure thread will not help.
> 
> 
> 
> So are you saying that this is specific to UK law? If so, I'm sure that someone more knowledgable than me will correct us if it's the case that other sample libraries that have been recorded in London or anywhere else in the UK subject to the same laws, and the company allows license transfers. Is this true?
> 
> 
> 
> So, where are all these many libraries being recorded that DO allow transfers? It seems many companies manage it, so are London and LA the exceptions? If so, and the market took a strong stance on insisting that resale was important, then I'm sure companies would quickly find a way to circumvent such issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, that's too easy mate: I don't buy the argument that companies (particularly those as big as Spitfire) are not allowing resales because of their ignorance of UK Copyright law. Again, that comes straight from the market team's table!
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough. I have to note of course that you are not exactly an impartial observer in this discussion! As both a consumer and a developer of sample libraries, you too will have to determine your policy on resales. I take it from this discussion, Hybrid Two will not be allowing resales?



I don't know what you want me to say mate XD. Some companies seem to be fine dealing with the legal grey area. Others not so much. I too hope there are more ways to demo products in the future, but thats just the way it is.

HybridTwo doesn't do resales either. Our content is watermarked open wave files. Meaning someone could transfer the licence but not delete the content. We don't have enough man power in our company to keep tabs on our thousands of customers, so we set up the rules to be manageable for us to keep track of. We are upfront about this and you know that going into the purchase. Anyone who has bought the licence to use our samples can use them in their work. Those who have not purchased it can not. Each company can do it how they wish but this is the best way for us to maintain that our licence is being used correctly.

Unfortunately when you run a company you can't use the honour system as a legitimate means to protect your IP.

-DJ


----------



## Garry

Daniel James said:


> I don't know what you want me to say mate XD. Some companies seem to be fine dealing with the legal grey area. Others not so much. I too hope there are more ways to demo products in the future, but thats just the way it is.



No, it's the way _we_ _allow it to be_. As purchasers, we have options. If we choose to buy only libraries that allow resales, then _that_ will be 'just the way it is'. It's up to us as consumers to push the companies for a fairer deal.



Daniel James said:


> HybridTwo doesn't do resales either.







Daniel James said:


> Our content is watermarked open wave files. Meaning someone could transfer the licence but not delete the content. We don't have enough man power in our company to keep tabs on our thousands of customers, so we set up the rules to be manageable for us to keep track of. We are upfront about this and you know that going into the purchase. Anyone who has bought the licence to use our samples can use them in their work. Those who have not purchased it can not. Each company can do it how they wish but this is the best way for us to maintain that our licence is being used correctly.



I actually think that's a very fair and reasonable way of doing it. Those who are professional can offset costs of libraries based on projects (indeed, as you did for HZS!) and should rightly bear the cost of using them in published works, and those who are hobbyists don't need the rights to use it in published works so shouldn't be paying for the privilege to do so, so I commend you for an equitable solution that matches your capacity to police it. Nice job mate, I genuinely like it - everyone's a winner! 



Daniel James said:


> Unfortunately when you run a company you can't use the honour system as a legitimate means to protect your IP.



Yeah, I wasn't suggesting we 'pinky promise' not to pirate stuff! And I fully want the companies to be protected; the system should be fair to them, as well as to customers and session players. Since the larger companies hold licensing keys for their software, it would seem reasonable that they administer a facility for the transfer of that licence. Since your company doesn't, you've come up with a practical solution that protects you and is a reasonable deal for the customer. I'm simply commending your general approach to all the other companies in this space.


----------



## SterlingArcher

synergy543 said:


> Isn't this Hans (in front of the Moog) in the Video Killed the Radio Star video?
> 
> 
> 
> The music video for "Video Killed the Radio Star", written, directed and edited by Australian Russell Mulcahy,[59][60] was produced on a budget of $50,000.[3]....[59] Hans Zimmer can be briefly seen wearing black playing a keyboard,[61]




With too much eyeliner


----------



## Garry

Garry said:


> ...Spitfire have shown themselves to be a highly principled and generous company, and I don't think whether the market can get away with them not doing this would be their only consideration as to whether to offer this or not



For evidence of how genuine the people behind Spitfire are, look no further than this video, just released. True humanity, offering deep and personal insights to help someone in the music community make life-changing decisions. I could not be more impressed with this, and it's for precisely THIS reason, that I feel that of all companies, that we could ask to give this issue genuine consideration from the customers' perspective, I think Spitfire is unrivalled in their potential to innovate in this space, for the good of the whole community.


----------



## Saxer

rottoy said:


> I'm trying to produce the latest dance hit using the best Spitfire has to offer; Hans Zimmer.
> https://clyp.it/j05smwxe


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK

Saxer said:


>


ummm..I think it's getting late in the day...


----------



## Alex Fraser

Saxer said:


>


What the f**k did I just listen to?!?


----------



## Saxer

Sorry guys... I had fun


----------



## mcalis

That dance song is one of the best things to come out of this thread.


----------



## JanR

In case anyone missed Daniel's epic Jack Sparrow line, someone uploaded it on youtube. Funniest thing ever!!


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK

Well as amusing and enriching as this thread has been (between watching 3 HOURS of the 5 hour twitch stream...) 'to be continued tomorrow'
I must retire to slumberland for work tomorrow

The long Bank Holiday is over and now it's back to basics 

For those over the pond, enjoy the rest of your evening on here

Good day all


----------



## Piano & Strings

JanR said:


> In case anyone missed Daniel's epic Jack Sparrow line, someone uploaded it on youtube. Funniest thing ever!!



When I watched this originally, I had the playback speed set to 2x!


----------



## Daniel James

JanR said:


> In case anyone missed Daniel's epic Jack Sparrow line, someone uploaded it on youtube. Funniest thing ever!!




For the record - this was supposed to be cut out for Youtube but the twitch export was glitched so I couldn't edit the highlight. So this video comes after my first look and wasn't intended for Youtube. In these parts I am normally having fun and talking to my chat room. This clip people are passing around was when I was being overly dramatic for comedic effect....so while I support what I am saying, I am taking it up to an 11 to entertain the people watching live. Also lol when I am in that rant mode I come up with some random phrases xD

-DJ


----------



## Rctec

rottoy said:


> Addressing @Rctec directly, if you feel the music piece below is in bad taste, I'll swiftly remove it.
> I assure you it was done with the most benign of intentions.


It’s shit! . ....I will Never Forget ÓLAFUR ARNALDS Name again!


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

Having had the time to watch the _Daniel James_ HZ-Strings review video, I would love to see Spitfire Audio release a *HZ-Strings Short Articulation Expansion* that focuses on adding a hefty load of additional short articulations, (Which I agree with Daniel that these should have been sampled, but sadly they were not), and I mean a lot more variety of shorts, that will make this library a really amazing product for those of us who feel these are very crucial, and important articulations that are missing from this library. They can offer this as a free expansion, or charge a reasonable fee for HZ-Strings owners. Actually this will make me purchase the current HZ-Strings library instantly !

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Vik

I don't have time to spend 5 hours on reading or listening to a review of a sample library (especially when they aren't actually reviews). So... have you, DJ, ever considered editing your 'reviews' to make them substantially shorter?


----------



## Rctec

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Having had the time to watch the _Daniel James_ HZ-Strings review video, I would love to see Spitfire Audio release a *HZ-Strings Short Articulation Expansion* that focuses on adding a hefty load of additional short articulations, (Which I agree with Daniel that these should have been sampled, but sadly they were not), and I mean a lot more variety of shorts, that will make this library a really amazing product for those of us who feel these are very crucial, and important articulations that are missing from this library. They can offer this as a free expansion, or charge a reasonable fee for HZ-Strings owners. Actually this will make me purchase the current HZ-Strings library instantly !
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp





Daniel James said:


> For the record - this was supposed to be cut out for Youtube but the twitch export was glitched so I couldn't edit the highlight. So this video comes after my first look and wasn't intended for Youtube. In these parts I am normally having fun and talking to my chat room. This clip people are passing around was when I was being overly dramatic for comedic effect....so while I support what I am saying, I am taking it up to an 11 to entertain the people watching live. Also lol when I am in that rant mode I come up with some random phrases xD
> 
> -DJ




But Daniel, the main problem for me with your walk-through is that your point of view is fundamentally unreliable - since you have a pre-conceived idea of “The Zimmer Sound” having the strings play loudly. You don’t really seem to listen or hear what goes on in the track with how I use strings... they usually play quietly. Let me give you some examples... but this time, really Listen. I don’t need to use words to describe what I mean. I just link you to the music:







And here is a little something with far too many cellos, playing way outside their comfort zone...



...I’m just posting this to make you aware that your methodology of your walk-throughs is flawed from the beginning...


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

JanR said:


> In case anyone missed Daniel's epic Jack Sparrow line, someone uploaded it on youtube. Funniest thing ever!!




When you put the video on half speed Daniels sounds like he had a bottle of Sparrows Whiskey.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Rctec said:


> But Daniel, the main problem for me with your walk-through is that your point of view is fundamentally unreliable - since you have a pre-conceived idea of “The Zimmer Sound” having the strings play loudly. You don’t really seem to listen or hear what goes on in the track with how I use strings... they usually play quietly.



I think Daniel refers more to the pieces like they are featured in the first 4 minutes here:



For me those strings here are going through the roof.


----------



## mac

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> When you put the video on half speed Daniels sounds like he had a bottle of Sparrows Whiskey.



Hahaha. My god, we all have far too much time on our hands


----------



## Tatu

Rctec said:


> “The Zimmer Sound” having the strings play loudly


This is really funny, since it's been rather apparent for years, that Zimmer rarely amps up the strings to those really powerful levels.. some brief moments from The DaVinci Code comes to my mind. Usually it all sounds like _p_ to _mf_ stuff for strings, whlist the brass peaks a bit higher to achieve desired timbre & color. To me it seems more like a very well balanced mixture of dynamics mixed extremely well together.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

mac said:


> Hahaha. My god, we all have far too much time on our hands



Oh man, I actually am working on some orchestrations for a band from England, I am out..I have to shape some lines..these damn distractions..all the time..I throw my laptop out of the window.


----------



## Rctec

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Having had the time to watch the _Daniel James_ HZ-Strings review video, I would love to see Spitfire Audio release a *HZ-Strings Short Articulation Expansion* that focuses on adding a hefty load of additional short articulations, (Which I agree with Daniel that these should have been sampled, but sadly they were not), and I mean a lot more variety of shorts, that will make this library a really amazing product for those of us who feel these are very crucial, and important articulations that are missing from this library. They can offer this as a free expansion, or charge a reasonable fee for HZ-Strings owners. Actually this will make me purchase the current HZ-Strings library instantly !
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


Paul and I where discussing exactly that today... and a few other ideas. But just discussing, not promising!


----------



## Consona

rottoy said:


> I'm trying to produce the latest dance hit using the best Spitfire has to offer; Hans Zimmer.
> https://clyp.it/j05smwxe


Lol, I'm listening to this on repeat, soo good!


----------



## mac

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Oh man, I actually am working on some orchestrations for a band from England, I am out..I have to shape some lines..these damn distractions..all the time..I throw my laptop out of the window.



Screw that, I'm going to watch the full 5 hour stream at half speed, way more entertaining!


----------



## Puzzlefactory

JanR said:


> In case anyone missed Daniel's epic Jack Sparrow line, someone uploaded it on youtube. Funniest thing ever!!




I actually laughed out loud at that little rant.


----------



## Dr Belasco

An Orchard in Czechoslovakia.

Still reeling.


----------



## Consona

JanR said:


> In case anyone missed Daniel's epic Jack Sparrow line, someone uploaded it on youtube. Funniest thing ever!!



Lol, the middle of Czechoslovakia line, legendary.


----------



## Rctec

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I think Daniel refers more to the pieces like they are featured in the first 4 minutes here:
> 
> 
> 
> For me those strings here are going through the roof.



That’s because the strings are doubled with a load of samples and synth...


----------



## mac

@Rctec Can I ask an off topic question? I was wondering what kind of hifi you use at home, and what you might listen to?


----------



## Consona

This is the Hans Zimmer String Sound:



And btw, you can get that no prob with Trailer Strings from Musical Sampling so sampling that again would be redundant....


----------



## Puzzlefactory

It’s true though. I’ve spent most of the weekend listening to a HZ playlist on spotify and the strings are very rarely “in your face” most of the power comes from the brass and percussion.

This track though has some pretty “in your face” ostinatos.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Rctec said:


> That’s because the strings are doubled with a load of samples and synth...



Yes, I know you layer things, _but isn´t that a part of what makes your sound_? I mean..that´s a rethoric question. Sure it is. So...well..I can understand such expectation quite a bit then when Daniel sais: Well I want to have those super loud and buttkicking shorts.:emoji_violin:


----------



## Rctec

mac said:


> @Rctec Can I ask an off topic question? I was wondering what kind of hifi you use at home, and what you might listen to?



Oooops... I don’t have one! Seriously, I listen to music in my studio or in the car. I quite like silence at home. Or a good set of headphones. Musical taste? Beethoven, Mozart, EDM, Crazy Gypsy Music, Manu Chao, Genesis (Gabriel Years), electronics, icelanding and Eastern Europeans composers, Charlie Parker and...Joe Zawinul, who I think was always amazing. Oh, and no kidding, ABBA for the songwriting craftsmanship. And Brian Wilson....oh, Serious Funk!
...how long have you got?


----------



## rottoy

Rctec said:


> Oooops... I don’t have one! Seriously, I listen to music in my studio or in the car. I quite like silence at home. Or a good set of headphones. Musical taste? Beethoven, Mozart, EDM, Crazy Gypsy Music, Manu Chao, Genesis (Gabriel Years), electronics, icelanding and Eastern Europeans composers, Charlie Parker and...Joe Zawinul, who I think was always amazing. Oh, and no kidding, ABBA for the songwriting craftsmanship. And Brian Wilson....oh, Serious Funk!
> ...how long have you got?


Is there a Mozart/EDM crossover? If so, do tell.


----------



## Garry

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I think Daniel refers more to the pieces like they are featured in the first 4 minutes here:
> 
> 
> 
> For me those strings here are going through the roof.



Wow, what a f**ing legacy! This music is just so inspiring. You can feel a thousand wannabes (me included!) opening their DAWs when they hear this. Most of us know we'll never achieve even 1% of this, but oh, the journey.

Thanks Alex for reminding me why we all do this in the first place.

Thanks Hans - the emotion just drips off every note. Can't listen to these without hairs bristling, landscapes conjuring themselves in my mind. Just beautiful.


----------



## Tatu

rottoy said:


> Is there a Mozart/EDM crossover? If so, do tell.


Check the 90's playlists


----------



## rottoy

Tatu said:


> Check the 90's playlists


Damn, they must have been Haydn from me.


----------



## Strezov

Rctec said:


> Oooops... I don’t have one! Seriously, I listen to music in my studio or in the car. I quite like silence at home. Or a good set of headphones. Musical taste? Beethoven, Mozart, EDM, Crazy Gypsy Music, Manu Chao, Genesis (Gabriel Years), electronics, icelanding and Eastern Europeans composers, Charlie Parker and...Joe Zawinul, who I think was always amazing. Oh, and no kidding, ABBA for the songwriting craftsmanship. And Brian Wilson....oh, Serious Funk!
> ...how long have you got?



Slightly offtopic, but @Rctec - curious which Eastern Europe composers caught your ears


----------



## JPComposer

rottoy said:


> Damn, they must have been Haydn from me.


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## mac

Rctec said:


> Oooops... I don’t have one! Seriously, I listen to music in my studio or in the car. I quite like silence at home. Or a good set of headphones. Musical taste? Beethoven, Mozart, EDM, Crazy Gypsy Music, Manu Chao, Genesis (Gabriel Years), electronics, icelanding and Eastern Europeans composers, Charlie Parker and...Joe Zawinul, who I think was always amazing. Oh, and no kidding, ABBA for the songwriting craftsmanship. And Brian Wilson....oh, Serious Funk!
> ...how long have you got?



Haha, I did wonder - what does someone who's spent so long in world class studios, turn to 'listen' to music on at home. I figured you'd go one way or the other, either a £200,000 set of floorstanders, or a £20 bluetooth device!

If you haver any recommendations for crazy gypsy music, I'm all ears


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## rottoy

mac said:


> If you haver any recommendations for crazy gypsy music, I'm all ears


That's not the preferred nomenclature. Crazy Roma music, please.


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## stixman

Bit of classic Gong? 


Rctec said:


> Oooops... I don’t have one! Seriously, I listen to music in my studio or in the car. I quite like silence at home. Or a good set of headphones. Musical taste? Beethoven, Mozart, EDM, Crazy Gypsy Music, Manu Chao, Genesis (Gabriel Years), electronics, icelanding and Eastern Europeans composers, Charlie Parker and...Joe Zawinul, who I think was always amazing. Oh, and no kidding, ABBA for the songwriting craftsmanship. And Brian Wilson....oh, Serious Funk!
> ...how long have you got?


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## tehreal

Of the 100+ projects HZ has scored, less than 10% have had what folks think of as the rambunctious "Zimmer string sound". The problem arises from the fact that those pictures (Batman, Pirates, etc) were such monumental box office successes that their main themes stick out in people's minds more. That's not Hans' doing so why should his library be beholden to that? It wouldn't accurately reflect his body of work where strings are concerned (nor is a lib required to do such a thing).

@Daniel James argument comes in with an explosion while @Rctec has been making his points with a slow steady simmer. Sorry, I'm probably still not going to get the lib for other reasons but this whole betrayal of brand thing is not holding water for me.


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## Rctec

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yes, I know you layer things, _but isn´t that a part of what makes your sound_? I mean..that´s a rethoric question. Sure it is. So...well..I can understand such expectation quite a bit then when Daniel sais: Well I want to have those super loud and buttkicking shorts.:emoji_violin:


But this isn’t just the Strings Library! The “Shorts” are a combo of many things. They are sort off my Verdi thing:


Maybe I should do that library. Verdi meets Berlioz in a pub.... ...most quoted piece in film music...


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## Rctec

stixman said:


> Bit of classic Gong?


 Yup! This one!


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## ThomasNL

Rctec said:


> Yup! This one!




So are you procrastinating your next project by being on VI-control this much Hans?  And Pierre Moerlen was one hell of a drummer...

That made me came up with an interesting question: Which musician would you love to collaborate with?


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## rottoy

ThomasNL said:


> So are you procrastinating your next project by being on VI-control this much Hans?  And Pierre Moerlen was one hell of a drummer...
> 
> That made me came up with an interesting question: Which musician would you love to collaborate with?


It could be that he's scoring a documentary about VI-Control and is doing his due research on the subject matter.


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## stixman

I have never heard of this album! i played with Didier who is a fantastic player and the other members of Gong once ..Pierre's drumming on the Angels Egg (edit) album is brilliant 


Rctec said:


> Yup! This one!


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## Consona

rottoy said:


> I'm trying to produce the latest dance hit using the best Spitfire has to offer; Hans Zimmer.
> https://clyp.it/j05smwxe


When can we expect the next chart smasher? Hans' voice is way too cool to stop the rave just after the first notch.


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## rottoy

Consona said:


> When can we expect the next chart smasher? Hans' voice is way too cool to stop the rave just after the first notch.


That's up to @Rctec .


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## D Halgren

For me it's always been this one!

I was able to see them live. What a show! Smurf hats!


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## Ryan

I made Hanz Zimmer cues/remakes back in 2009-2011 using LASS and Project Sam etc. If I want that bombastic Zimmer sound. I'll dial it in and mix it my self.


:D


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## reid

For stellar Romanian jazz, stick Fanfare Ciocarlia into YT, it'll provide you with a great starting place


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## muziksculp

Rctec said:


> Paul and I where discussing exactly that today... and a few other ideas. But just discussing, not promising!



Hi Hans,

Thank You Very Much for discussing this with Paul, it would be a delightful surprise if you agree to add a HZ-Strings (Shorts) expansion or any other ideas you come up with to complement the currently missing short articulations of HZ-Strings. 

I also want to add that It's great to have you participate in this forum, and read your comments, and perspective on libraries, and composition in general. I'm a big fan of your scores. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## tehreal

I think we can wrap this thread up now. Who's with me?

See you at the next release!


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## Lionel Schmitt

ThomasNL said:


> So are you procrastinating your next project by being on VI-control this much Hans?


Was thinking that as well  
Maybe he is exporting stems haha...
...8 days remaining...


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## Pianolando

Amazing thread, amazing answers from the man himself and absolutely amazing rant by DJ....comedy gold!


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## Dr Belasco

tehreal said:


> I think we can wrap this thread up now. Who's with me?
> 
> See you at the next release!



With Hans' new role as Spitfire's ambassador to the music United Nations??!!?>?

Surely not!


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## n9n9n9

I actually would like to be taken into the mist of an orchard in Czechoslovakia.


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## Noiro

After some consideration of this discussion, the team here at NoiroOne studio has decided to release a similar product soon aimed to bridge the gap.

We are proud to give you a first sneak preview of REAL HZ STRINGZ.

Highlights:

It solves all the shortcomings mentioned in this thread
Super easy UI - only two modes
It has a knob
It will be available as a Kontakt Instrument - the team is currently also working on a commodore version

Overview:

Two modes between one can switch:
1. Copycat - Choose this mode and the library will generate your personal HZ track. The one you had in mind actually. Instantly. Mixed and mastered, all with one click.
2. Real Deal - Switch to this mode to get the HZ String part that has not even seen the light of day, yet. This is actually something really innovative in the VI world, since it triggers a complex algorithm that’s connected to the real world! We live in the age of the internet of things, so it was about time for this mode. This mode will send (via the send FX bus) a team of specialized former intelligence agents over to the HZ studio, extract all relevant data (e.g. samples) and send it back (also via send FX) to the instrument.
Knob
The ONE Knob is one of the key features of this superb plugin. It simply gets the job done. Like any job.
Just one of the many outstanding features of this knob is that you can actually control it with an Atari 2600 Joystick controller.



We are currently accepting some users for beta-testing, so feel free to get in touch!

Best
Manuel


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## Puzzlefactory

So Daniel is doing another Twitch live stream as we speak, talking about all the backlash from his previous video.


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## blougui

Man, I cannot believe we go through it all again !
All the same arguments again, and again, and again... Its a weird way to call an "open conversation". It sounds evenless a conversation than your posts here. You're talking alone,wording the same arguments. But on Twitch. With people commenting on a chat box but with no real interactions, at least for the 10ish mn I just watched.
For the life of me, I can't understand why it is so. 
Very weird.
Guess I'm too old for that.


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## Kyle Preston

As someone in another thread with an Adam West batman avatar said, FUD.


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## Gauss

My photo editing skills are poor but, my take on cover for HZS:




I know this is a vineyard, not an orchard, but this is close enough.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Gauss said:


> My photo editing skills are poor but, my take on cover for HZS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know this is a vineyard, not an orchard, but this is close enough.


Oh, thats great, can you do a John Williams cover for timpani or maybe if not an Alan Silvestri Brass Wallpaper? Thank you..


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## Soundhound

"...shorts fall apart like a fucking rock star on drugs.." DJ is the John Lennon of sample libraries. Fucking hilarious guy.


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## Christof

Puzzlefactory said:


> So Daniel is doing another Twitch live stream as we speak, talking about all the backlash from his previous video.



How much coffee did he drink?


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## Lionel Schmitt

Christof said:


> How much coffee did he drink?


Energy drink, speed and a bit of coffee I believe.


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## MarcelM

DarkestShadow said:


> Energy drink, speed and a bit of coffee I believe.



and you think your comment is funny?


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## Guffy

Heroix said:


> and you think your comment is funny?


Don't you dare talk to him like that!


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## artomatic

Puzzlefactory said:


> So Daniel is doing another Twitch live stream as we speak, talking about all the backlash from his previous video.


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## PeterN

Gauss said:


> My photo editing skills are poor but, my take on cover for HZS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know this is a vineyard, not an orchard, but this is close enough.



Not an orchard in Czechoslovakia, and you say vineyard in Czechoslovakia. Is that even Czechoslovakia? First impression is Java Island, rainforest and a volcano in background. The mist that DJ mentions is there though.

Is that really Czechoslovakia?


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## Christof

Seriously, this whole thing becomes a bit ridiculous.
Let's concentrate on music instead.


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## Lionel Schmitt

Heroix said:


> and you think your comment is funny?


No.


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## Consona

Christof said:


> Seriously, this whole thing becomes a bit ridiculous.


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## Drundfunk

Consona said:


> Lol, I'm listening to this on repeat, soo good!



I always have the urge to sing "Call on me" above it when listening to it. Such an amzing piece of music


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## Puzzlefactory

Interesting. Didn’t realise there was a history between DJ and Spitfire.


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## blougui

Christof said:


> Seriously, this whole thing becomes a bit ridiculous.
> Let's concentrate on music instead.


What for ?
Haven't you watched last Mr Henson vlog ?
Saying he would have rather stayed in bed than attending his record session in Abbey Road ?

The emotion, the hubris, the drama, the helter-skelter of a life time is not in the music anymore, it's right here,right now, on VI.C, reading Mr Zimmer and Mr James politely arguing from their respective GQ while us, in the trenches, listen to shots passing by, a rat biting our guts from inside,desperate to see the light of day, waiting for our turn to jump in the midst of the muddled battleground, our wallet empty of all but the last image of our beloved.

It's not about music anymore, Christof. It will never be - not before next SA launch or M.Patty tweet.


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## jononotbono

Rctec said:


> Joe Zawinul



Yeah he's outrageous. I actually saw him supporting Herbie Hancock and a jazz trio called the Acoustic Triangle (they did some cool stuff performing completely unmic'ed - blowing Trumpet through the Grand Piano Strings for reverberation etc) at the Poole Lighthouse UK around 2004. It was an amazing evening as they all jammed with each other eventually. He started talking to the crowd with his Keyboards and Vocoders (and I had never experienced something like that with Electronic music before - I was instantly hooked). Badasses.


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## Lionel Schmitt

Rctec said:


> Oooops... I don’t have one! Seriously, I listen to music in my studio or in the car. I quite like silence at home. Or a good set of headphones. Musical taste? Beethoven, Mozart, EDM, Crazy Gypsy Music, Manu Chao, Genesis (Gabriel Years), electronics, icelanding and Eastern Europeans composers, Charlie Parker and...Joe Zawinul, who I think was always amazing. Oh, and no kidding, ABBA for the songwriting craftsmanship. And Brian Wilson....oh, Serious Funk!
> ...how long have you got?


where is Thomas Bergersen


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## blougui

Thanxfully he cited ABBA.
They were awsomely talented.It was not before 1989 that I began to love their tunes and appreciate the sheer talent of songwritting and interwoven singing but they've not left my pantheon since then.


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## Consona

Yea, many of us can only wish they had the ABBA brain for melodies.


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## jononotbono

Consona said:


> Yea, many of us can only wish they had the ABBA brain for melodies.



Oh definitely.


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## blougui

But with the voices.
Ulvaeus brain and the voices.


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## KEM

Rctec said:


> Musical taste? Beethoven, Mozart, EDM, Crazy Gypsy Music, Manu Chao, Genesis (Gabriel Years), electronics, icelanding and Eastern Europeans composers, Charlie Parker and...Joe Zawinul, who I think was always amazing. Oh, and no kidding, ABBA for the songwriting craftsmanship. And Brian Wilson....oh, Serious Funk!



Where's Underøath? Needs more Underøath...


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## Jose Antonini

I'm probably late to this debate but if someone asked me what I would've liked from the "Hans Zimmer Strings" library I would have sent them this:



The complete range.
I do understand the limitations of samples, this is wishfull thinking.

BTW @Rctec if at any time the "Hans Zimmer Interestellar Fucking Organ Library" ever comes out, count me in.


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## josephwmorgan

Jose Antonini said:


> BTW @Rctec if at any time the "Hans Zimmer Interestellar Fucking Organ Library" ever comes out, count me in.



Don't think this is the exact one but is prettyyyy close


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## ranaprathap

I don't think there is one "Hans Zimmer sound". He has managed to continuously innovate and vary his sound over the course of his career, all within the confines of film music. That is something I really love about his work. When I watched Kung Fu Panda 3 in theatres, I was really surprised to find that the music was Hans when the credits rolled out. 

However, I do not blame people for expecting that by buying Hans Zimmer strings, they will be able to do the ostinatos in The Dark Knight  However, if that was not the purpose of the library then the real question is what is the difference between a regular Spitfire Strings library with 344 players and plenty of mic positions, and a Hans Zimmer Strings library. What is it about the library that brings in the HZ branding? 

You can't blame HZ or Spitfire for people having wrong expectations. And you can't blame people for having wrong expectations from HZStrings. DJ has the freedom to suggest that they should have sampled all loud stuff. It was such an obvious thing they must have thought of, considering that there were 344 players. But they chose not to. Spitfire has the freedom to choose not to do that. I am sure they had their reasons. So I think there's nobody to blame. Let's all peace out from here!

Hans Zimmer strings or just regular strings, the library should be able to stand on its own in terms of quality. Not having loud stuff is forgivable. Having trivial bugs isn't. I hope they fix it soon. But to me from the demos, it sounded amazing. The violas patch sounded like silk. Wow.


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## ranaprathap

Rctec said:


> Paul and I where discussing exactly that today... and a few other ideas. But just discussing, not promising!


You should be careful with that. DJ has some offer you may not want to pass. 


Daniel James said:


> Take my name off it and throw that in a free HZS update, I will personally offer sexual favours to HZ and all the people at SF.
> 
> -DJ


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## Jeremy Gillam

blougui said:


> Thanxfully he cited ABBA.
> They were awsomely talented.It was not before 1989 that I began to love their tunes and appreciate the sheer talent of songwritting and interwoven singing but they've not left my pantheon since then.



I've had some interesting conversations with media composer friends about how we could really learn something from the great pop songwriters — that ability to create something that's instantly recognizable and memorable, simple yet still interesting is so applicable to film and TV. And nobody does it better than the Swedes. I was listening to some old Max Martin-penned Backstreet Boys songs this morning and and appreciating the awesome end-chorus counterpoint...


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## givemenoughrope

Rctec said:


> Daniel, I still haven’t watched your video, I apologize, but - why don’t I let you run riot for a couple of days in my room with my custom library? You can review it, if you want... the problem is, it’s so customized that, unless you spend a lot of time learning it - which you can’t do in a quick walk-through - it’ll sound... well, like anything “Spitfire” have done before (give or take some nuance that, by building their own sampler, they can address in time). I mean, you’ve had time in the past to see my set-up...



Right. Ok..This is a key point. You have to learn these libraries.

There is a bit of a disconnect for me between the specs, the walkthrough and the demos on the Spitfire page for HZ Strings. I can KIND OF hear how the walkthrough would yield these demos. It certainly doesn't make me feel like there are well over 100 strings playing. That leads me to believe that this is definitely a library (like the best libraries) that takes a lot of elbow grease but also rewards shaping notes and the finer touches of programming/mixing. And that would be the case with most libraries...However, some recent ones from Spitfire and 8dio have this sort of baked-in, one-shot mini performances thing going on. Dynamic patches, waves, EVOs, etc. Sus patches that don't sit there statically. It has come to be expected. I love these but they are what they are; useful and sound great but limited (so you just buy more of them). When you combine that with the idea of an ensemble library (I realize that this is NOT an ensemble library) or a library with non-standard section sizes I can see Daniel's point of view in wanting this library to sound great and cohesive and also somewhat instantly and at least generally sound like his notion of "brand Hans Zimmer" out of the box.

When I see "Hans Zimmer Strings" for sale, instantly my brain says, "No. Pass," even if HZ Strings could sound like a bunch of different things. I saw 300+ players and thought, "Nope. No chance." When I heard the demos I almost clicked buy right then and there which never happens. I'll still hold off only bc I'm still learning a few libraries and how to combine them with my awful cello playing (thank god for Cubase and SPAT) but it really want to get back to libraries that reward the elbow grease and this sounds like one for sure.

Listen to the middle section of Andy Blaney's demo. It doesn't sound like no 300 strings to me... sounds great! The spec and the "brand" be damned. The sound is what counts.


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## EvilDragon

Daniel James said:


> Unfortunately when you run a company you can't use the honour system as a legitimate means to protect your IP.



Seems to work just fine for Cockos (Reaper). But yeah, definitely helps to be well off before actually starting the company.


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## Jon K

New to this discussion but I agree with Daniel entirely its an excellent sounding niche library and if it was marketed as HZ edge of silence strings or whatever that would make perfect sense, then you could come out with an over the top HZ power string library and everything in between, but don't think this captures a wide enough array of sounds to be titled something so broad as HZ Strings unless that wasn't the intention, I dunno...


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## prodigalson

Jon K said:


> New to this discussion but I agree with Daniel entirely its an excellent sounding niche library and if it was marketed as HZ edge of silence strings or whatever that would make perfect sense, then you could come out with an over the top HZ power string library and everything in between, but don't think this captures a wide enough array of sounds to be titled something so broad as HZ Strings unless that wasn't the intention, I dunno...


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## Jon K

prodigalson said:


>


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## NoamL

Jon K said:


>


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