# Cheap crappy pair of monitors or half decent headphones?



## Puzzlefactory (Sep 26, 2017)

Just got into a half hearted argument on Facebook about whether it would be better to invest in a budget set of monitors or a half decent set of headphones for mixing.

Was wondering what the concensus is around here?

Just to be clear, I'm talking about a "bedroom studio" with no acoustic treatment and a budget of between £100-£200 (or even £200-£300).


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## JohnG (Sep 26, 2017)

I guess I'd get the headphones. I like AKG K701s.


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## gregh (Sep 26, 2017)

get the headphones - your budget will allow for some decent ones. Just be very careful about your listening volumes and accept that you wont be able to hear low frequencies that well so don't over do them.
Speakers are more expensive to get reasonable quality, probably around the 400-500 range for a decent small pair. But do you think you can stand using headphones for a long period? Some people don't like using them for long, particularly closed back ones
I find my Beyerdynamic DT250's very comfortable


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## synthpunk (Sep 26, 2017)

arguing over gear and music is futile. Saying that I would recommend you save your hearing for when you get old and be very careful with headphones (lower volumes, and short hours). Many seem to get by on JBL LSR monitors.


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## Bear Market (Sep 26, 2017)

I have the same situation (bedroom studio, no treatment) and I went for a pair of decent headphones together with the Sonarworks Reference audio calibration software. I find mixing to be much easier on my headphones now than on my Yamaha HS-5s.


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## StephenForsyth (Sep 26, 2017)

Headphones but you should have speakers anyway if only because writing on headphones is somewhat fatiguing and annoying to me through some combination of both the sharp and present sound of the headphones and a literal clamp being attached to my head.

I don't have an acoustically treated room so I mix on headphones but I have a pair of speakers so I can take extended breaks from the headphones when I'm writing/entering in parts, having two outputs with easily controlled levels on your soundcard will come in handy here.


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## muk (Sep 26, 2017)

Working on headphones alone is somewhat problematic because the stereo image is different than on speakers. You should at least check your work on speakers. Good headphones are the AKG K701 that John mentioned, Beyer Dt880, or Sennheiser HD 600. The JBL LSR 305 seem to be good speakers for the price. If you want/need to go ultra cheap check out the Micca MB42X. With a DSP correction filter (can be found here: http://noaudiophile.com/Micca_MB42x_Bookshelf_Speakers/ ) applied they are quite something, especially at that price.


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## Tyll (Sep 26, 2017)

I know this is not exactly the question, but my upgrade path would be cheap headphones like the Superlux HD 668B (20€ headphones), next JBL LSR 305 (250€/pair speakers) than decent headphones in the 130-150€ range (DT 770/250, AT 50H-M50X, AKGs or whatever you fancy).

Headphones:
+ Much cheaper at a decent quality - the 20€ headphones are really good! 150€ is already in "all you will ever really need"-territory
+ Way clearer response compared to an untreated room

- Ears get tired quicker and can get damaged if not cautions with volume
- No good response in bass frequencies
- Might get uncomfortable over long time
- Stereo field placement is a little more tricky

Monitors:
+ Better stereo field

+- Bass response may get lower, but will likely be not clear due to the untreated room

- Much more expensive to get a decent pair. I actually think that 250€/pair is already a very usable range, but you sure get more improvement with increasing investment compared to headphones. Also I have yet to hear any decent really cheap monitors (in contrast to the 20€ headphones).

I'd say it's a bit of apples vs oranges. Both have their advantages and and disadvantages. Personally, I'm only able to get a good mix when using headphones and speakers in my untreated hobby home studio. I like the analogy of a room with little windows, which only allow to see a bit what's outside. But if you can run between the windows, you'll get a better overall picture.


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## germancomponist (Sep 26, 2017)

If you get used to a headphone, you can do mixes with it. Only the sound, when mastering, I would then make in the studio of a friend. In a "best" studio.


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## DaddyO (Sep 26, 2017)

+1 for JBL LSR305's on a budget in a bedroom. Ideal? No. It seems to me nothing in an untreated bedroom will ever meet the ideal of full response. So you do the best you can on a budget, and don't let the angst of "If only I could afford..." bother you.

For me I found the LSR's on sale for a great price at Sweetwater (in the USA) for $199. For that low "entry fee" I got a pair of what are probably the most popular entry level Pro Audio studio monitors. I completely understand your position, having been there myself. With limited funds and perhaps no prospect of more soon, you don't want to make a mistake. Me, five years later I feel I made the right choice.

Re: headphones, if you've used headphones for several hours straight and you haven't suffered from mad-headphone-user's disease, then I suppose there are good options. I ended up with some Sennheiser HD280 Pros, again at a great sale price ($99). But I wouldn't want to use them for more than an hour or two at the time. If you have never tried, I strongly suggest you do so before committing yourself to a path where you can't change your mind soon.

I was fortunate. For 300 US dollars I got both monitors and headphones with sufficient quality for my level.

Hope things go well for you!


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## Vin (Sep 26, 2017)

Decent cans (Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pro and Sennheiser HD600 are my favourites) + Sonarworks headphone calibration.


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## Puzzlefactory (Sep 26, 2017)

Just clarify, I'm not in the market. I have a nice set of dt770's and a pair of old Yamaha hs-50's (plus sub woofer).

I was just curious as to what people's opinions on the subject were. 

Like I said I was half heartedly arguing with someone on Facebook who was adamant that no matter what, you shouldn't mix on headphones. Obviously I disagreed.


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## passsacaglia (Sep 26, 2017)

Def headphones but +1 on synthpunk's post, take care of your ears, your inner ear cannot rehab or recover.  
I actually bought a kind of cheap pair on Aliexpress called iSK HF2010 (iSK pro audio), extremely good pair of cans.
All mixes have been top notch. Recommend checking them out. 40 bucks. Good headphones don't have to cost a fortune.
HeadFi review on them in this thread:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...i-greathon-cyberx-qpad-thread.585356/page-296


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## MarcelM (Oct 5, 2017)

passsacaglia said:


> Def headphones but +1 on synthpunk's post, take care of your ears, your inner ear cannot rehab or recover.
> I actually bought a kind of cheap pair on Aliexpress called iSK HF2010 (iSK pro audio), extremely good pair of cans.
> All mixes have been top notch. Recommend checking them out. 40 bucks. Good headphones don't have to cost a fortune.
> HeadFi review on them in this thread:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...i-greathon-cyberx-qpad-thread.585356/page-296



i bought those headphones and can only recommend them. they dont sound like 40 bucks headphones and iam very very pleased with the purchase. 

thx for the headsup, ive never heard of them before


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 5, 2017)

I bough a pair of iLoud Micro Monitors for £ 180 from Inta Audio. I can't stand using headphones for anything serious, and these little speakers are excellent as I travel a lot and they are great for use in hotels. Not the biggest bass of course - but if you are short of space and have a tight budget they are quite surprising.


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## ryst (Oct 5, 2017)

Vin said:


> Decent cans (Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pro and Sennheiser HD600 are my favourites) + Sonarworks headphone calibration.



I would agree with this. Or you could go the other way, get some decent monitors and Sonarworks for room calibration. Either way, I think Sonarworks can help if you're in a bedroom studio.


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## aaronventure (Oct 5, 2017)

Unless you treat your room (and you can't for that money, even if it's homemade stuff with Owens Corning) you won't get any "monitoring" out of cheap speakers, you'll just get a bit stronger and a bit clearer speakers than those $70 Logitech ones. They don't have the power, they don't come with a sub, their lows are usually non-existent, and they aren't balanced. Plus on top of that, you're hearing the room, not the speakers.

You can get Audio Technica ATH-M50x for less than $150. You can get Sonarworks Headphone calibration for like $70. And there you go, almost flat frequency response. When the night falls and I transition from my Sonarworks calibrated Adam A77Xs to average curve (the one that comes with the software, not custom) ATH-M50x, the transition is so natural and direct - because both are calibrated to nearly flat frequency response. Of course, it's not the same as the speakers, a small amount of diffused room is good for the ear and you can't hear the left headphone with your right ear.

But if I was starting all over again from nothing, I'd pick "dry" mixing on calibrated headphones over a shitty pair of monitors in a shitty room *ANY* day. That's actually what I did back in the day, the first thing I did was pick up a Sony's MDR-7506 cans for $90, however I didn't know about Sonarworks back then, if it even existed. I'm sure you have at least some speakers, and do use them to reference how your mixes sound.


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## Jake (Oct 5, 2017)

Seems pretty easy to me.

Half decent should always beat out cheap and crappy (as stated in your title)!

After all, crappy is..... well, crappy.

Though I do like cheap all else being equal!


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## passsacaglia (Oct 16, 2017)

I would say my isk hf2010 are way above half decent, 40 bucks for a dt880's copy catties.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 16, 2017)

I think if something like the LSR 305 is "crappy" then any headphones you get for that price would also be "crappy."

I'd probably go with the speakers if you're in a situation where you can make noise. If it were closer to $500 then maybe I'd go with headphones. I think the next level of speakers is above $1000. The problem is that you'll never get the same experience on headphones as with speakers so I'd rather go with lower quality speakers.

Regardless, Sonarworks would be a must for either option. If I had my DEQX then I'd pick pretty much any speaker over any headphones.


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## MarcelM (Feb 9, 2018)

passsacaglia said:


> I would say my isk hf2010 are way above half decent, 40 bucks for a dt880's copy catties.



i moved up to the new takstar pro 82 (also did cotton ball mod). really even ALOT better than the hf2010.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/tak...iscussion-thread.849965/page-84#post-14017870

bought those here and they arrived within one week in germany.

https://www.tomtop.com/de/p-i3156s.html

can only recommend these headphones. they really sound fantastic for really little money!


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## BenG (Feb 9, 2018)

In a similar predicament...

Are studio monitors pointless if your room is untreated?


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## robgb (Feb 9, 2018)

BenG said:


> Are studio monitors pointless if your room is untreated?


Well, it doesn't take that much to treat a room to some degree, BUT the key is knowing your monitors no matter how your room is treated. Listen to music other than your own. Use reference tracks when you're mixing. Familiarity with the sound of your equipment is far more important than anything else.


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## Greg (Feb 9, 2018)

Headphones.. I like the Sennheiser HD 650. I still like composing with them even with a good room and monitors. Being able to hear all the little details with headphones is super important to me on certain styles. Like when crafting soundscapes and intimate dry string pieces.


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## BenG (Feb 9, 2018)

robgb said:


> Well, it doesn't take that much to treat a room to some degree, BUT the key is knowing your monitors no matter how your room is treated. Listen to music other than your own. Use reference tracks when you're mixing. Familiarity with the sound of your equipment is far more important than anything else.



Makes sense and I can see your point. I've run into room/monitor issues before however, which is why I switch over to headphones. (DT 880Pro)


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## Mike Fox (Feb 10, 2018)

Im using the iloud micros. They are better than any budget friendly headphones.


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## storyteller (Feb 10, 2018)

BenG said:


> Are studio monitors pointless if your room is untreated?



Unfortunately for your own sanity... yes (IMHO). You can mix on anything, but it proves an uphill battle when nothing is treated well.

When I've been in temporary locations and have tried to set up monitors, even with light to medium treatment, I have great difficulty getting a mix right. However, when I'm in my fully controlled/treated room, it is much easier for me to create at a good mix than it is to create a bad mix. So I resort to headphones when I am outside of that environment and use monitors only as a reference to check the mix after it is all done.

Personal opinion of course... but if you had < $1k to spend, I would say that your are probably much better off getting a pair of HD650s, something like Apogee's Groove USB DAC (or even Apogee One for that matter), and also purchasing Sonarworks for headphones. If you want to spice it up in a sub <$1k budget, pick up Waves NX and their separate bluetooth device for it. Obviously if the budget is $500 or less, you'd have to make some concessions on the choices I mentioned. You could still grab a pair of HD650s and sonarworks assuming you have a headphone output that can drive it (with hopefully a great DAC). However, I've also known engineers that swear by something as simple as the Sony MDR 7506s (at $99). To each their own on choosing your cans.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 11, 2018)

Mixing on headphones is a really bad idea, in my opinion. No engineer I've heard of who has any choice would do that.

However, it's been common practice to mix on pretty lousy speakers, and there are rational reasons for that. Before Yamaha NS-10s became a studio standard there were Auratones, which are little things used mainly for checking how the mix will work on the radio, but people did mix on them. NS-10s' strength is that they force you to work hard to make your mix sound good.

I'd definitely look on the used market for a pair of speakers that are competent, even if I had to power them with an old stereo receiver or something. If they don't go down low enough to hear the bass, then also look for a pair of used headphones to check your mixes. *

But I'll take usable speakers over great headphones any day.

* Another trick: you can touch the woofers of small speakers to hear whether pops and other low things they don't reproduce - like below 60Hz - are getting through. Or use a frequency analyzer to watch for them; I know Logic comes with one, maybe other DAWs do too.


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## JohnG (Feb 11, 2018)

People do all kinds of things when mixing that aren't supposed to work but they sort of survive anyway.

I can't believe how quietly my engineer works, for example. A lot of great mixers seem to operate that way. I like LOUD. Which I'm told is all wrong.


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## Puzzlefactory (Feb 12, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Mixing on headphones is a really bad idea, in my opinion. No engineer I've heard of who has any choice would do that.
> 
> However, it's been common practice to mix on pretty lousy speakers, and there are rational reasons for that. Before Yamaha NS-10s became a studio standard there were Auratones, which are little things used mainly for checking how the mix will work on the radio, but people did mix on them. NS-10s' strength is that they force you to work hard to make your mix sound good.
> 
> ...



Do those same engineers also mix in untreated rooms?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 12, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Do those same engineers also mix in untreated rooms?



The best engineers I know have a healthy "it is what it is" attitude.

But treating a room and solving its problems are two very different things!


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## Kaufmanmoon (Feb 12, 2018)

As someone who's still learning and getting used to mixing on speakers after a few years on HD650's I agree with most of what has been said here.
Sonarworks has certainly helped me on headphones and incredibly so on my studio set up now that i'm using speakers for the first time.

It's worth noting Alan Meyerson said he often mixes video games on headphones or laptop speakers as that's what he knows the audio is primarily going to be played through.
Of course music can be mixed on headphones. Is it as good as speakers in a lovely sounding room? doubt it.

I've heard my 10 year old Tannoy's in an untreated room to them in with GiK Panels in place and the Sonarworks and it made them sound like they were in another league. (just a shame one of the speakers is now on it's way out)

Headphones make perfect sense if you're in a room without treatment.
In the month or two i've been using speakers in a "treated" room to mix i've noticed the stereo imaging does make things more fun. My ears don't appear to fatigue as much and I'm hearing reverbs and compression far clearer than I ever did.

The room is more important than the speaker is what i've learnt. 
For the love of Darwin make sure you reference your music against the big guns.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 12, 2018)

Kaufmanmoon said:


> Headphones make perfect sense if you're in a room without treatment



Headphones make sense if something is only going to be listened to on headphones. Otherwise, you miss all the interaural cues, as they're called - the interaction of the two speakers and the room, which has a huge impact on how things sound.

As to "room treatment"... well, that's like talking about health treatment. Treatment for what?

Putting a bunch of shit up on your walls doesn't do anything unless it's solving a problem, and it can create problems.

I'm not aiming this at you or any one person, Kaufmanmoon, it's a general comment: I think there's more misinformation going around about acoustics than anything else in audio!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 12, 2018)

By the way, I'm not saying bad things about headphones! They're great for listening and monitoring, just not for mixing.

Some of my best friends are headphones.


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## Kaufmanmoon (Feb 12, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Headphones make sense if something is only going to be listened to on headphones. Otherwise, you miss all the interaural cues, as they're called - the interaction of the two speakers and the room, which has a huge impact on how things sound.
> 
> As to "room treatment"... well, that's like talking about health treatment. Treatment for what?
> 
> ...



Not offended Nick. The treatment I'm talking about is positive treatment such as the tri traps in my corners and a large monster trap on my back wall which has helped tame the low end in my room effectively.

Completely agree that some people are spending £100's on foam that's not doing diddly squat to help their room.

You think headphones aren't for mixing, I disagree. It's no problem. Do I prefer mixing on speakers? yes.


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## storyteller (Feb 12, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> By the way, I'm not saying bad things about headphones! They're great for listening and monitoring, just not for mixing.


Nick, you and I tend to agree on most everything discussed from a pro audio standpoint. I'm a little surprised we aren't there on this one. I'll always prefer monitors in a treated room... without a doubt. I do agree with you on that part. But, just from personal experience, I feel like every time I've ever mixed on a substandard monitor situation, there are a number of variables that inevitably cause the mix to lose its mojo. With good headphones and things like sonarworks and waves NX, the variables are largely eliminated.

Just curious, have you tried Waves NX in use with Sonarworks? I doubted it at first, but now I find that I have the NX system software setup for things like Spotify and use the plugin when mixing with headphones. I also bought the bluetooth attachment because the camera lags a bit and consumes too much CPU. I'm not sure I'd say the same thing about headphones if Waves NX wasn't part of the solution. It isn't perfect, but it can be used to fill a large gap when mixing with headphones. I much prefer my treated room and my Blue Sky's though!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 12, 2018)

I haven't tried Waves NX, but it looks interesting, and it could certainly change my mind about headphones if it does what it purports to do.

To be clear, I do have curved panels (broadband absorbers) in my the front part of my room, and I've spent a lot of time on the acoustics here, so I'm certainly not arguing that it's not important! My objection is to the vague extortions you read around the internet about nonspecific "room treatment," as if buying some arbitrary stuff and putting it up is going to do anything good. And sometimes the specifics are totally wrong.

Love my Blue Sky System One.

Oh - when I was talking about lousy speakers, I'm not saying *any* lousy speakers, I mean ones that make you work to get a mix right. That was always the selling point about NS10s, and I agree with it. And they used to be very cheap, before Yamaha stopped making them - although you'd often see them driven by $2500 power amps, which is kind of funny!

These curved baffles are what I have in the front sides of my room, but I sit outside the "reflexion-free zone" and don't have the front one (because I have a window there). And my baffles have four panels, not six like these. They're made by ASC, part of package they used to sell, and they work beautifully:


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## synthpunk (Feb 12, 2018)

I Grammy award winning artist once said Headphones are like condoms for your ears.


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## Puzzlefactory (Feb 13, 2018)

@Nick Batzdorf the point I was making (and the whole point of starting this thread) is that a lot of the time, the people advising that “you should only mix on monitors” are engineers who spend their entire mixing life in properly treated rooms, great bits of kit; with a good listening position, monitor layout floating room control room etc etc...

Of course in that situation, monitors are going to give you the best mix.

However, most people aren’t in this situation. Most “studios” are crammed in the corner of an untreated room (living room or bedroom) probably with one monitor in the literal corner. 

In that situation the room is going to play havoc with mix. They’ll be nodes all over the place and you’ll get a drastically different listening experience in relatively small changes in listening position. 

I would argue, in that situation, you’ll get a much more balanced mix (particularly in the low end, which causes the most problems) if you use a decent set of headphones.


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## garyhiebner (Feb 13, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I haven't tried Waves NX, but it looks interesting, and it could certainly change my mind about headphones if it does what it purports to do.
> 
> To be clear, I do have curved panels (broadband absorbers) in my the front part of my room, and I've spent a lot of time on the acoustic here, so I'm certainly not arguing that it's not important! My objection is to the vague extortions you read around the internet about nonspecific "room treatment," as if buying some arbitrary stuff and putting it up is going to do anything good. And sometimes the specifics are totally wrong.
> 
> ...


You still running an old CRT monitor in your room? Just shows you, you don't need the latest tech. ANd it still looks like you got an Apple G4 in the corner there.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 13, 2018)

garyhiebner said:


> You still running an old CRT monitor in your room? Just shows you, you don't need the latest tech. ANd it still looks like you got an Apple G4 in the corner there.



Stock picture! That's not my studio, I just posted it to show the baffles I have up!


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## synthpunk (Feb 13, 2018)

But our old Apple Cinema's are getting close to that 



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Stock picture! That's not my studio, I just posted it to show the baffles I have up!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 13, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> I would argue, in that situation, you’ll get a much more balanced mix (particularly in the low end, which causes the most problems) if you use a decent set of headphones.



I'll still take the speakers over the headphones. Headphones are fundamentally different - precisely because they lack interaction with the room.

For one, our brains compensate for serious lumps in rooms all the time. But you can make almost any room workable just by sticking up some gnarly broadband absorption at the front (behind the speakers, because the reflections you don't want are the ones coming from the same angle as the speakers).

The psychoacoustic theory is that the speakers or headphones don't give you the direct sound, they sort of give you reflections of a direct sound that you missed. Similarly, you need the room to hear the speakers themselves, i.e. they behave like instruments in a room.

It sounds crazy, I know.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 13, 2018)

But look, this all comes down to preference. If you can make better mixes on headphones, or even if you feel more comfortable working with them, then of course that's the way to go.


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## elpedro (Feb 13, 2018)

I'll take headphones over crappy monitors any day.but the listening fatigue takes a big toll with headphones.


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## JonAdamich (Feb 13, 2018)

If you aren't tracking, get some open-back cans. Beyerdynamic is solid.

https://www.amazon.com/Beyerdynamic-990-Premium-HiFi-headphones/dp/B00193FT26 (990pro)is a great pair but keep in mind you might need a headphone amp. Considering what audio interface you use, it might not give you enough boost.

As someone else has mentioned 880 is also a solid choice.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 14, 2018)

Just bear in mind that you can hear everything on headphones. For openers, you're almost certainly going to make bad mistakes with ambience (i.e. not enough of it).

Yesterday I was polite, because people have all kinds of wacky opinions, but to me they're a really bad idea for your only reference.

And it's not like that's your only choice. I just did a quick search on Craigslist here, and there are about six pairs of perfectly acceptable speakers listed for under $150 a pair - and that's just my area, not the ones you have to drive half an hour to get.


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## synthpunk (Feb 17, 2018)

what Nick said 100%.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Just bear in mind that you can hear everything on headphones. For openers, you're almost certainly going to make bad mistakes with ambience (i.e. not enough of it).
> 
> Yesterday I was polite, because people have all kinds of wacky opinions, but to me they're a really bad idea for your only reference.
> 
> And it's not like that's your only choice. I just did a quick search on Craigslist here, and there are about six pairs of perfectly acceptable speakers listed for under $150 a pair - and that's just my area, not the ones you have to drive half an hour to get.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 17, 2018)

Most pop music is mixed for headphones on portable devices. 
I think mixing has become too much of a rocket science. Post a track and you'll get 20 different opinions unless something is really off.
Some like to use crappy speakers and if it sounds good that's it. Some will listen to their mix on multiple devices and make adjustments.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 17, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> Most pop music is mixed for headphones on portable devices.
> I think mixing has become too much of a rocket science. Post a track and you'll get 20 different opinions unless something is really off.
> Some like to use crappy speakers and if it sounds good that's it. Some will listen to their mix on multiple devices and make adjustments.



With orchestral samples, I'll buy that it's not brain surgery. Well... I won't really, but okay.

Mixing is a highly evolved art form, and there are engineers who are as good at it as the best musicians are at playing instruments. Actually, I'd say the studio *is* an instrument!

Over the years I've become reasonably competent at mixing. But I can tell you from personal experience that I've worked on a mix until it sounded really good - and then a friend who's a great engineer had at it, and it was *way* better. No comparison.

If you listen to some of the great albums that have stood the test of time... I mean, you can still hear something new in the production every time you listen to them.

A-B listening can be really interesting. You put one channel out of phase so the middle is canceled, making it easier to hear the reverbs and things.


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## Puzzlefactory (Feb 18, 2018)

One of the best produced I’ve heard is Groove Armadas Goodbye Country (Hello Nightclub). 

Which incedently also has one of my favourite string arrangements in the track Edge Hill.

I’m still impressed with the production value today even though I first heard the album back in the 90’s.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 18, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> With orchestral samples, I'll buy that it's not brain surgery. Well... I won't really, but okay.
> 
> Mixing is a highly evolved art form, and there are engineers who are as good at it as the best musicians are at playing instruments. Actually, I'd say the studio *is* an instrument!
> 
> ...



If I were to make money off my work the one thing I would leave out in a mastering chain is me. I think some who are starting out make more of an issue of mixing than creating. There have also been some professional artists who decided to master their own and it's obvious. I think Rush made that mistake. It is a skill that takes a lot of practice and the pro have to work at a much faster pace.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 18, 2018)

These days - that is, these days since the digital revolution that started in the early 80s - there's obviously much less of a separation between all the skills. Not only are we mixing as we go, we have way more toys than we can (or should) use available at the click of a mouse. No question, that's a tempting distraction.


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## gsilbers (Feb 19, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> One of the best produced I’ve heard is Groove Armadas Goodbye Country (Hello Nightclub).
> 
> Which incedently also has one of my favourite string arrangements in the track Edge Hill.
> 
> I’m still impressed with the production value today even though I first heard the album back in the 90’s.



i only remembered super styling. i re discovered it w your post and the whole albums is awesome!.


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