# New Avid S1 and S4 Mix Controllers



## Garlu (Jul 19, 2019)

New EUCON controllers from Avid. 

S1 looks interesting for a composer setup...!!! Would they implement midi cc capabilities on them? #wishwhatyouwant

Thoughts?


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## chimuelo (Jul 19, 2019)

I wish.
I pay developers familiar with Analog Devices ADSP-21469 to build custom mixers because Native Developers and even UAD won’t add MIDI #CC’s.
I’d love a quality mixer on PC but I gave up.
Besides DSP Devs have done this for over 20 years and are beyond MIDI. They’ve got CopperLan, OSC, etc.
Just finished the IEM Mixer for 8 separate Monitor Mixes below to assist my 4 AUX/ 16 Channel ASIO / Hardware keyboard mixer.

Please let me know if these guys finally broke into the vault for R & D and added the rare protocol called MIDI.

Just started using this for my small club venue, but here’s my project window. I route analog synths and hardware effects into the Audio/MIDI/DSP Rack, along with the rest of the bands mics electric drums. Trying to figure out a way to use bass without a stage monitor so we can play the showrooms where Monitors aren’t allowed, only IEMs.

I can manage and control everything, even lighting from my Master MIDI Controller.
The Physis K4 can automate an entire showroom, including MIDI Controlled Hydraulic Genies.


Please report back on this.
I usually find that when there’s no information and details on MIDI, there is none.
I had to join UAD Forum and badger people there and it was most surprising to find out their plug ins don’t even have MIDI.
This is odd considering the protocol barely uses resources to implement.


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## colony nofi (Jul 19, 2019)

It’s pretty clear on the avid site that this uses eucon and not midi. So to use midi you’d have to make a converter from eucon to midi. There are hacks allowing this now, but they’re not seemless (involves having some dummy / otherwise unused midi tracks in your daw connected to eucon and BOMES midi translated.)

As for the surfaces - interesting indeed. I’m certainly paying attention.


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## chimuelo (Jul 19, 2019)

Where I can read about converting this?
I’ve been creating MIDI Translator Pro projects and devices to act as a Hammond B3 Drawbar Controller, etc.

I’d probably use Bidule and the Bome Box that houses MTP Projects and add a 2nd Touch Screen just for IEM Mixing.

I’m bouncing between Mixers live right now because the keyboard mixes have automated FX and I’m using 5 x Pedals to control most scenes but occasional manual over rides so a Native Mixer would be much easier.

I run my Monitor Screens through USB Ports on my Physis so they’re right in my face as I perform.
There’s even a dual VESA Mic Stand adapter for 2 Screens.

Glad I read this thread because I can’t have a Eucon Hardware controller on top of my controller.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jul 19, 2019)

chimuelo said:


> Where I can read about converting this?


You basically just need to convert a midi channel's volume in a DAW into whatever CC you want. I do this directly in Nuendo. When you adjust the mixer volume of a midi track it sends out CC7 on that track. Each track gets its own CC conversion. Label the tracks CC1 etc, create a layout with just those CC tracks, and you're done. Virtual midi port gets all of the CC's and then sends them back in for whatever midi track I want to control. 

I think you can also get it to work in Mackie Control emulation and then convert that in programs that don't have Eucon but I remember having difficulties trying to get it to spit out Mackie.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jul 19, 2019)

Curious to see how the S1 compares to the S3 and the price. I barely use most of the features on the S3. Curious to know about fader resolution, easy VCA spill, and buttons to jump between layouts. Looks like it has the ability to easily select panning vs sends etc and fader flip. That's pretty much the only things I use on my S3. Having all the control buttons on top instead of on the sides might be a bit of an ergonomic hassle. I never really got into controlling plugins on it as you gotta click through and select too many things. Quicker to just open up the plugin and use the mouse. Basically means that the second row of LCD's and knobs never get used on my S3. I would consider downgrading to the S1 since it probably has all I need but the S3 has more of a wow factor.


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 19, 2019)

...just your regular reminder that Cubase natively supports midi CC control over EuCon via Quick Controls.

Wow, I see the S1 is replacing the Artist Mix. End of an era.


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## jamwerks (Jul 20, 2019)

I wonder also of the build quality of the S1? The Artist series was kinda iffy. Cool that the screen is not built-in!


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## chimuelo (Jul 20, 2019)

My apologies for not researching these surfaces before whining.

I’ve been looking for a SOFTWARE mixer, or soundcard based Mixing application that frees you from the mouse using MIDI.
Gave up on UAD, RME, Harrison, etc.

The EuCon stuff looks great if you tire from being handcuffed by a mouse.


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## muk (Jul 20, 2019)

The S1 looks really interesting. '[...] price to be confirmed but expect to be similar to the Artist Mix' (source: https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/production-expert-1/2019/7/17/avid-s1-eucon-control-surface-announced-what-you-need-to-know). In the comments somebody (apparently an Avid employee) states that the price is not decided yet, but probably will be 'a little more than the Artist Mix'.

So at around 1500$ it's not going to be cheap, but if it does what it seems to do, and is sturdy and reliable, it could be a great solution for our purposes. As a nice side effects, prices of the Artist Mix might drop when the S1 is released.


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## X-Bassist (Jul 21, 2019)

Ahh Avid, coming in overpriced again. They don’t seem to realize paying close to $200 per moving fader is pricey by any stretch of the imagination (Yes, this is mostly what I use it for, fader mixing). Was really hoping they were going to come closer to reality on this one.

The S1 isn’t expected to be released until the end of the year (meaning hopefully you could get one by Q1 2020) so finding one at a decent price (used or open box?) might be years away. But a used Artist Mix might be closer to $500 as people sell them off (got mine a few years ago for $600). The question is, how long will Avid support them? They seem to jump ship on products fast after they stop selling them (see amost every bit of hardware Avid and Digidesign has sold in the past). 

I really like PT and the Artist Mix, even when Eucon software is being a PITA. But Avid doesn’t seem to get that people like long term support for expensive purchases.


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## PerryD (Jul 22, 2019)

I have a fairly modest bedroom setup. I am using a Faderport 8 for track / transport control and a Behringer X-Touch compact for CC control. It is working well with Studio One 4.5


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## procreative (Jul 24, 2019)

I use a Mackie Control and Logic. Using a MidiFX script and Smart Controls, I am able to automate CC. What basically happens is instead of writing midi CC with the faders they are writing automation which the MidiFX converts to CC in realtime.

The Mackie Control has a feature to flip the rotary controls which is where Smart Controls normally show, to the faders.

The only pain is that you have to set this up per track (not a problem if you have a template), plus if you are anal about wanting to end up with CC in the project, then the only workaround is at the end to use the Event Editor to convert all the specific automation events into midi CC.

Identifying them is easy as they pick up the labels from Smart Controls.






Midi CC Automation with Mackie Control (A Solution)


I recently posted about the lack of options for automating MIDI CC in a DAW. After a lot of research I realised most DAWS had not way to achieve this as getting Bi-Directional MIDI from MIDI CC lanes is almost impossible without some workaround. I use Logic Pro X and already own a Mackie...




vi-control.net


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## procreative (Jul 24, 2019)

Jesus $24k-52k for a dumb controller! Thats crazy, maybe for a large studio intent on wowing their "talent", but really? And that dont even include the "optional monitors".

This is for the dumbasses who have money to burn and stupid clients.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 27, 2020)

procreative said:


> Jesus $24k-52k for a dumb controller! Thats crazy, maybe for a large studio intent on wowing their "talent", but really? And that dont even include the "optional monitors".
> 
> This is for the dumbasses who have money to burn and stupid clients.


No, it is for profitable studios doing non-stop DAW work that this surface accelerates. Think post houses. It has nothing to do with "wowing talent". For them it is 1/2 to 1/4 the cost of an S6 surface and available at a great price and in a smaller format for smaller edit suites. 

A business will depreciate this over 3-5 years and have paid it off many times over. It isn't for home studios - though Avid will take your $$ if you offer it. 

This is like a medium format camera system - if you know how to earn $$ with it, it is not expensive. If you aren't making $$ with it, it makes no sense at all. 

But just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean that anyone is dumb for buying it. They have clients to service and this will help them do that. The studios who buy the S4 have the movie studios that most people on this board would most like to work with as clients. It's ok if it isn't for you. It is pretty fairly priced for what it is. Look at what a Nuage costs with 16 faders and a center section - $25k. Same price. This is market priced for what it is.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 27, 2020)

I would be very curious if anyone has the Dock + S1 set up in ProTools yet. It looks like any command can be put on the touchscreen macro area of the Dock. I am interested and watching how this develops. The S1 has the same quality faders as the S3 according to a thread on the DUC that Avid responded to. It's a step up from the old Avid Mix.


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## Anders Wall (Jan 27, 2020)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> I would be very curious if anyone has the Dock + S1 set up in ProTools yet. It looks like any command can be put on the touchscreen macro area of the Dock. I am interested and watching how this develops. The S1 has the same quality faders as the S3 according to a thread on the DUC that Avid responded to. It's a step up from the old Avid Mix.


Yes.
Yes, but we've been able to create our own macros for quite some time.
Hell yes.

It's miles from the artists.
Much better build quality.
One thing I wish Avid would do is let us set a default parameter to have in encoder 1 (or fader 1) when you go into plugin automation.
Say that you want to reach the gain of a plugin, sometimes its on encoder or fader if you reverse 3, other times on 7 etc..
Would be great to mark the, for you, most important function.

/Anders


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 27, 2020)

Thanks, Anders! I appreciate the response. I know the Artist Mix could to, but everything seems taken to a new level with the Dock + S1. It seems to be a good bit of the "most used" function of the larger surfaces in a relatively affordable package. What they have done with using cheap tablets to provide large, color, touchscreen digital displays is quite clever. Keeps the "Avid" cost down, and lots of us have a tablet or two laying around anyway... Good times.


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