# Your submission sounds like a well-known track - Would you wanna know?



## sleepy hollow (May 24, 2015)

I try to listen and comment on submitted tracks here more often. Haven't uploaded my own music, but nevertheless I feel obliged to participate in this subforum.

Sometimes I just don't have anything useful to say, except maybe that I noticed a similarity between the submission and some more or less well-known movie or radio hit.

Would you want people to point that out to you? Even if it's the only thing they have to say? It's not that easy. Some people might consider this bad manners, while other people find that to be attentive and useful.

What do you think?


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## catsass (May 24, 2015)

I think a tactful approach could be harmless. 
"It has a real XXXXX vibe to it." or "Very XXXXX-esque in nature" etc.
If the piece is downright plagiarism, I think even this type of commentary could alert the party in question that they aren't fooling_ everyone_.
Or, in some cases, they simply may not even realize they are treading water so closely to an established piece of music.

Who here hasn't come up with a cool melody or what-not only to realize, "OOPS! Well, so much for that!"


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## sleepy hollow (May 27, 2015)

catsass @ Sun 24 May said:


> I think a tactful approach could be harmless.
> "It has a real XXXXX vibe to it." or "Very XXXXX-esque in nature" etc.


Yeah, I guess that's it. 

Interesting that there aren't more comments, but maybe that just means people agree with what you said.


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## KEnK (May 27, 2015)

I only comment on music that interests me.
I'm personally not into what most people here aspire towards,
so my comments are essentially useless to them.

I never listen to pieces described as:
trailer, adventure, game, battle, etc.

There are a few composers whose work I do admire,
and I always listen to what they post
but no doubt I'm missing some good stuff 
by my preference to avoid the generic.

I've found that even critical commentary on 'known' composers 
whose works I'm less than enamored w/ illicits a lot of unwarranted bad vibes.

ex- There are a few academy award winning filmscores that I think are utter nonsense.
Enough people have taken that view so personally (how dare I diss someone's hero!)
that I've stopped saying anything at all.

I wouldn't expect that a critique of some successful composer's work
would generate the level of hostility it occasionally has-
So I've personally sworn off giving my not so humble opinions.

But I do try to keep an eye open for 'creativity',
and when I find it I'll offer some appreciation or encouragement.

k


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## Stephen Rees (May 27, 2015)

One of my musical heroes RVW once said….

'With my own pupils now I always try to remember the value of encouragement. Sometimes a callow youth appears who may be a fool or may be a genius and I would rather be guilty of encouraging a fool than of discouraging a genius.'


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## KEnK (May 27, 2015)

Those are indeed wise words Mr Rees.

In my own student relationships I've learned many ways
to avoid saying "that's wrong".
I am in fact very encouraging to my students.

The critiques I'm alluding to above concern the derivative
stylistic choices many agree have become all to prevalent
in media and pop music these days.

btw-I have in fact listened to and been inspired by your music
and the advice you've given freely here.

And because of the obvious depth of your work,
I'm certain you know exactly what it is I'm bemoaning.

:mrgreen:


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## Stephen Rees (May 27, 2015)

That RVW remark wasn't at all directed at you KEnK. It just coincidentally followed your post. And thanks for your comment about my music and advice. Likewise I really enjoy reading your thoughtful posts.

The RVW quote is just something that I always try and keep in mind when considering whether to comment on someone else's work, and what I might say about it.


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## Stradibaldi (May 27, 2015)

It's not bad manners, I think it benefits composers to know that we just _can't get away_ with ripoff tracks. 

Take this track I randomly came across on Soundcloud.

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F92691176&secret_url=false[/flash]

The orchestration and composition are great, as is the recording, but for any literate listener those factors are overwhelmed by the* "HEY, that's John Williams!*" factor. As a result that listener won't give this piece the fair shake it deserves. 

I went through a phase of writing ripoff tracks, and no matter how cute I tried to be in leaving no fingerprints, listeners would always IMMEDIATELY say "That sounds like ____."

It's true that all good composers rip off music, *John Williams himself ripped off the climactic scene of E.T.!*






What I find funny about the ET example is, on the one hand you could accuse JW of shameless lifting...

...on the other hand it's clear that JW understood what DOES work about Hanson's piece (the flying, breathless sensation created by the orchestration) and what doesn't work (the boring pompous horn theme). A lesser composer would simply have lifted the whole piece, whereas JW takes the orchestrational idea and combines it with a MUCH better brass theme and the interesting idea of a rhythm that "skips a beat" creating an even more breathless feeling. 

As a result the Hanson symphony ends up sounding like a mediocre rip of JW instead of the other way around!

The secret to ripping off, imo, is to STUDY the pieces you love instead of copy-pasting them. Find the behind-the-scenes principles that great orchestrational moments have in common, or great memorable themes have in common. 

Take what works - on principle - and combine it with your own voice.


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## sherief83 (May 27, 2015)

I agree with everyone, i want to add my own as well. This is my own personal personal opinion on this. I always felt when I hear any track by any of my fellow composers that there is always something to admire about it even if it does imitate a style or a composer. 

I feel that if one does give the track proper time and patience, its uniqueness would come out to all of us. Realistically speaking though we don't always have the time to spend on every single piece we hear unless you are super good and or well known. so our judgment is definitely impaired in that situation, quick to dismiss and not always fair sometimes. As for us as composers, we are always pressured that if we don't make an impression on your first listen, the piece is easily dismissed and eventually goes into oblivion with all the efforts and nights and days and pain that went with it. 

Thats why I stopped critiquing pieces in general. who am I to judge any piece if it is a great work or not. to me that piece at the time of conception, effort and the circumstance of the composer's mental state and the amount of effort that went in to it could not be anymore perfect. I have no right to take all that away with my judgment from you and if your piece made an impression, you've simply gained my admiration.


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## Jean-Michel GEORGE (May 29, 2015)

Interesting thread … It reminds me of another thread ... No, that's a joke :D

I think that what is central to this topic is the fact that we are ALL necessarily influenced by the music we have been listening to since childhood. So it’s not so much a question of “if” it finds its way into our own compositions, but when and how subtly it does … I believe that consciously or not it’s the alchemy of all the music we grew up with (and continue to explore) that forges our own style … unless you deliberately choose to work in a genre that doesn’t match your personal tastes (whether you’re following trends or simply trying to earn a decent living !).

I am always happy to hear what influences others hear in any given track of mine, and if they narrow it down to a particular piece / song and theme that’s fine ! I find it normal to offer similar feedback, highlighting any “sounds like” that comes to mind, and have never thought of it as bad taste … Except of course if I were to say “Oh God, that reminds of that crappy song by so and so …”, but that would obviously be asking for trouble  

Sometimes it hits me that what I’ve just come up with sounds very much like something from a known artist in which case I point it out myself to save other people the trouble :wink: 

Here’s an example of a track I wrote just a few weeks after having watched both “The Army of Shadows” which is a French film with a beautiful score by Eric de Marsan, and Hitchcock’s "Psycho" with that unforgettable theme by Bernard Hermann. If the use of the latter is as obvious as it was intentional, I really hadn’t suspected that the rest could be linked to having recently listened to De Marsan’s work, but I strongly believe it was … I’m comfortable with it though because no one would regard it as plagiarism … Just to illustrate that I consider influences as blessings rather than curses !

JM

https://soundcloud.com/jean-michel-george/mona-lisa-b-herrmann-meets-e-de-marsan


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## zacnelson (May 29, 2015)

Stradibaldi, why are people so generous to John Williams regarding his `rip-offs'? If someone on the forum even does a track that is `in the style of' a well known composer like Zimmer or Williams, the response can sometimes be quite merciless, even though there is no specific Melody borrowed, just a similar approach. And yet there are some significant points in some Williams scores which are so blatantly ripped off and people are so gentle about it. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the moments in the `King's Row' score by Korngold which found their way into the Star Wars and Superman themes. Besides, Williams' style of writing is not terribly different to the romantic composers 100 years ago. Zimmer on the other hand could probably be credited more definitively with having forged a new `sound' that is fresh.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (May 29, 2015)

Honestly, if this is acceptable, I think anything is. haha


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## zacnelson (May 29, 2015)

LOL!


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## gsilbers (May 29, 2015)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Fri May 29 said:


> Honestly, if this is acceptable, I think anything is. haha





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V47enEvsafQ


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## zacnelson (May 29, 2015)

Another good video here! Especially the Tattouinne music and the Nutcracker Suite one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IV5u9iwuQ


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## Dean (May 30, 2015)

It does prove that life is a popularity contest after all,..when JW is 'inspired' by so many classical compositions its no big deal but when some other well known composers do it they seem to get crucified?

But I dont think its a huge deal,there are repeated,copied patterns/styles everywhere in art and life,..Its the same with trailer music when folks say it 'all sounds the same' ,'cliched' with big perc,ostinatos,risers etc,its all true but to me Jazz,blues,Heavy Metal,Rap,Country music are no different at all.

I think the big difference is 'how' its done,.some composers just manage to do it so damn well and put their own stamp on it that it becomes their own but its all borrowed ,lifted,inspired and in some case unfortunately blatantly ripped off,..speaking of which,..the most extreme case I've heard was the Cyrano v (Elfman) Batman theme! D


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## catsass (May 30, 2015)

Rachmaninoff's blatant and unapologetic lift of not one, but two Eric Carmen songs comes to mind..

Or do I have that bass ackwards?  
All kidding aside, Mr. Carmen did reach an agreement with the Rachmaninoff estate, granting them 12 percent of the royalties for both pieces.


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## Stradibaldi (May 30, 2015)

> Besides, Williams' style of writing is not terribly different to the romantic composers 100 years ago.



*http://i.imgur.com/YREtbJzl.png*

Is that true? Can anyone show me a D7alt in Wagner or Tchaikovsky?

The supposed classical/romantic influence on JW's musical language is way overstated.


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## zacnelson (May 30, 2015)

Well I suppose I should say he's also influenced by 20th century composers too, the point is it's all familiar styles that pre-dated him. AND I totally don't mind that!


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## mducharme (May 31, 2015)

Williams, in terms of harmony, is very influenced by Jazz harmony as well as Romanticism and neo-Romanticism. His phrasing is pure classical though - 4 bar phrases as the norm, no asymmetrical phrases of 5 bars like you find in Brahms and other romantic music, so it's a very Mozart-like design. Very often structures such as the period, double period, and phrase group (similar to a period but with the second cadence ending in V as well, instead of I, to avoid too much resolution).

The Star Wars theme is a good example of a phrase group, which he probably uses because the long tonic pedal (or prolongation) during most of the theme would make a return to I so quickly after arriving at V a little bit too anticlimactic, and remove needed emphasis on V. The same is true in Jerry Goldsmith's Star Trek The Motion Picture theme, which seems to be modeled on the Star Wars theme (I don't know if anybody noticed, but he actually borrowed the last four notes of Williams' Star Wars melody for the last four notes of that theme as well). Since Jerry has more harmonic motion, he however can get away with ending on I, which he finally does at the very very end of the piece, preferring to draw out the resolution of dominant to tonic harmony for dramatic reasons (which is also probably a secondary reason that Williams did the same thing).

In contrast, the Indiana Jones theme is a typical classical double period with 8 bar phrases in a clear antecedent-consequent relationship. His love themes also use this classical phrasing but tend to follow what Green calls a "continuous ternary" design whereby the first A section modulates during the second phrase to a related key.

Williams' harmonic language differs greatly from, say, Goldsmith and Horner, in that he uses those Jazz harmonies. Goldsmith and Horner both would use more triadic harmony and create interest through chromatic mediants, whereas Williams uses seventh chords and other more complicated harmonies all over the place.

However, though I have studied his melodic writing in detail, I haven't studied his harmonic language too closely, for fear I would start to sound like another John Williams clone. As it is, I find my own writing tends to sound an awful lot like Jerry Goldsmith and James Horner (especially 80's Horner) and I find that sound hard to completely get away from sometimes. If I started using Williams-esque seventh chords everywhere I would have a worse issue of sounding more like John Williams who has more imitators running rampant.


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## passenger57 (May 31, 2015)

Heard the 'Pines of Rome' the other day and was like.. that sounds like the Superman Krypton theme. Turns out Williams wrote it as a homage. So when someone who is familiar with the classical repertoire like Williams says 'that person sounds like JW' they could just as easily say, 'that person sounds like Respighi'


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## matolen (Jun 1, 2015)

At about the 3:25.00 point of Mike Verta's free-for-all video he plays a podcast detailing numerous "lifts" and "homages" of classical pieces in film music...

https://youtu.be/vZNqx3KjrIo

And of course reading this thread I can't help thinking of the whole Zimmer's Gladiator/ Holst's Mars, bringer of war incident...


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## Stradibaldi (Jun 1, 2015)

IMO Williams's approach is thoroughly jazz. 

*Why are people merciless on JW knockoffs? I think because the knockoffs only copy what's easy to copy.* Lydian melody, strings in octaves, bouncy horn accompaniment, woodwind flutters, etc. They aren't copying what is really at the heart of JW's music which is his extraordinary confidence in creating free and complex harmonic language, and his ability to write "scherzi" action pieces that seem to be complete bedlam while actually being very structured and transparently orchestrated.

There are lot of people out there knocking off "Fawkes' Theme" or "The Mission" or "Adventures On Earth" or "Across The Stars" - and comparatively _fewer_ people knocking off "Anderton's Great Escape" or "Pursuit Of The Falcon" or "Zam The Assassin" or "Whomping Willow" if you see what I'm saying here.

For that matter there's lots of people knocking off the big flying theme from "Halloween" from E.T. but not the modulatory section before it. It wanders all over the keyboard so you have no idea what key he's heading towards, and yet builds up logically to an incredible point of tension so that when he finally plays a big A7b9#11 (or something like that), you KNOW he's been working towards a big statement in D major all along. That buildup is what justifies the triumphant horn-cello unison and all the woodwind flutters and everything. Playing a big orchestration like that WITHOUT the buildup is just empty.

*It's the same thing with HZ knockoffs, they're not actually copying what makes HZ great.* If you take some of HZ's greatest tracks ever like "Time" or "Chevaliers de Sangreal" or "First Step", even a mediocre pianist like me can sit down and transcribe these tracks in 3 minutes. It's easy because HZ rarely writes anything more complex than applied dominants. It's all major/minor triads. By NO means is there any secret compositional ingredient to HZ's work. BUT, all the people who sit down and write i-bVII-bIII-bVI and write some sh!tty ostinato over it and go "Look I'm Hans" are missing the point, the genius of these pieces lies in finding AN idea, an idea that doesn't sound boring after the 6th time or the 10th time or the 16th time, and then actually repeating that idea 16 times and producing it _immaculately_. This is what the HZ imitators specifically do NOT do. They write every piece at _ff_ horns blasting off the bat like they never got what made "Time" great, or they never studied how HZ is constantly, subliminally seeding his themes in the comedic pizzicato bits in Pirates, Rango, Sherlock Holmes, etc.


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## Stradibaldi (Jun 1, 2015)

In addition the Inception one-upmanship in trailer music is boring as hell and http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/hans-zimmer-feels-horrible-when-his-inception-bramms-are-used-in-movie-trailers-20131106 (the man himself has said he's sick of it.) 

To state the obvious, HZ01 came out, ooh ahh etc., and next thing you know, _Interstellar_... hardly any percussion at all, right? What is there, a close-mic'd woodblock and some col legno string thwacks?


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