# Make Living on Sample Libraries?



## Alatar (May 14, 2017)

This is a question to all sample-library devs out there: 

How difficult is it, to make a living on making sample libraries? I.e. on creating and programming virtual instruments and libraries. For example: How many paid downloads can I expect, if I release a new library?


I know, its a quite a broad question. But I am thinking of releasing a virtual instrument of my own. And I have been wondering, if that is a feasible career path? To be a virtual instrument maker?


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## Bryan (May 14, 2017)

Well that will likely depend on more things than I could even imagine to know. For instance the quality of the instrument, how much you are able to put into marketing and so on... Maybe someone here can offer something but I would think that would be incredibly difficult to answer.


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## Norbz (May 14, 2017)

All of us had to start from somewhere.

I think many that currently sit on a portfolio of libs as their main source of income stumbled into it and it grew on them. Like anything in life, throw jam at the wall - if it sticks you scale fast, if not = next!

My journey was actually very accidental. 2009 I launched my 30th or so product (did like 50-60 .com's just looking for money in any niche. Launching ebooks, software, sounds, membership sites, whatever was trending), which was a beginner mini-daw and it took off on me. From there I developed a bunch of my own stuff not relying on programmers using stuff like maize, flowstone, little standalones, etc. By this time I had inadvertently transitioned from being a graphic designer/marketer + musician, into a business owner playing with the music production niche from a software perspective. Others I'm sure laser focused on aiming to be just that - and did it/do it.

As someone that has 20+ titles under their belt in various sub niches (I started launching sample pack sites, stock audio collections, and making more software), I can say that a LOT goes into this world. Making the actual instrument is probably 30% of the actual equation imo. You have to look at it from a birds eye view and what you will need pre-during-post launch to earn enough to transition into launching more or creating a staple product you can push for a few years without it going dry (unfortunately like in every niche, the market is capped for Kontakt so dev's launch stuff often to keep a drip of product coming and attracting new/more money).

The barrier of entry for Kontakt now looks very small, anyone can do it, there are more and more tools to help you do it. From skinning to white-label sample libraries to premade gui's in photoshop you can manipulate.. However the bigger picture is still important to look at. How much time and money is it going to take you to:

* Come up with a brand/logo/moodboard/treatments
* Complimenting GUI for your product
* Same for your website/customer journey
* Your ads/affiliate materials/bonuses/customer retention programs
* Making your actual instrument, testing, breaking, fixing, finalizing
* Creating tutorials, demo tracks, incentives to purchase
* Your copywriting, sales page needs/end user QandA pre-purchase

* Now here comes the fun part - you are ready to launch and see how the market will respond.
* Split test your sales pages, read Ca$hvertising/other to help maximize it
* You might have to do pricepoint split tests, deliverable split tests, adding bonuses/upping value, etc.
* Final market positioning, and now activating any/all marketing strategies

* If you have any success at all you will have immediate customer support needs (I have hired people but at first I did it all and you should too so you can instruct your staff easier).
* A few months go by - you go over and assess your costs/return/futureRev, and either "Yay - it worked - do it again" or "damn I just spent a bunch of money and time and the market doesn't want it" and you start over or give up.



EDIT: 


Alatar said:


> How many paid downloads can I expect, if I release a new library?



Not something anyone can answer, could be 2, could be 2,000, all depending on how you handle the variables above.


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## d.healey (May 14, 2017)

It's not difficult to make and sell a library. Generally the greater the number of samples and the more complicated the scripting, the more expensive - both cost and time - it will be and the more money you will need to make from it to be in profit. Your library is 99% likely to be pirated and there is nothing you can do about it - although iLok is pretty robust but probably not something you can utilise.

To make a living selling anything you need customers, if you sell someone a library they no longer need to buy that library so you've lost their custom at the same time you gained it  In order to retain customers you either need to make more libraries or charge for some other service like support or updates. You will have to offer support either way. So once you have a range of products to offer you can grow your customer base and depending on what you are charging for your libraries and how much demand there is for them you can start making a regular income - you probably won't be in profit the first year unless you are only producing low cost libraries. To make this regular income large enough to live off of you need to sell expensive products to a lot of customers, the idea of selling cheap products to lots of customers or expensive products to a few doesn't really work with selling sample libraries. So you need a decent number of products, an automated e-commerce website, an accountant, a marketing budget, and lots of eager customers.

I'm a small developer, I turn over about £1000 per month through website sales (averaged over a year), that is not enough to live on but it's a decent additional income stream. If I had more products and active marketing I could probably make a living from it, but that's not my goal.


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## Phillip (May 14, 2017)

It,a gonna be a labour of love


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## Andrew Aversa (May 14, 2017)

If you are willing to invest money into quality recordings and take the time to develop a really strong product... and then another one... and then another one... and then a lot more after that, you can certainly make it into a living. ISW became my own 'day job' probably around 2011, after we had released around 7 products over 4 years. Now we have a small but growing staff working a mix of full and part-time.

If you look at any of the major developers - Spitfire, 8dio, Soundsonline / East West, Spectrasonics - you'll see all of them are also doing well enough to have staff working every day on new products, tech support, web, marketing, and so forth. There are also a number of small, one or two-man operations that might not be doing $400 orchestral collections, but are nonetheless making a healthy living for their owners.

So sure, it's possible! But it's a business, and like any other business, you need time, money, and dedication to make it work (not to mention good ideas and good execution). 

As for sales, it really does depend entirely on a host of factors - namely price. The sales expectations for a $10-20 product are going to be a world apart from something in the $200+ range. My observation is that the demand curve is not linear for libraries/music software. In other words, I would not expect a $100 product to have 2x the sales of a $200 product, but more like 3x or higher. And a $20 product should have much higher than that.


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## Desire Inspires (May 14, 2017)

d.healey said:


> To make this regular income large enough to live off of you need to sell expensive products to a lot of customers, the idea of selling cheap products to lots of customers or expensive products to a few doesn't really work with selling sample libraries. So you need a decent number of products, an automated e-commerce website, an accountant, a marketing budget, and lots of eager customers.



This is Golden advice!!!


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## Andrew Aversa (May 14, 2017)

I do sort of disagree with that... it's all relative. Imagine a $300 library. If you can sell 100 copies a year, that's $30k revenue, which is nothing to scoff at. But there are literally millions of producers out there. That's the only way companies like Native Instruments can exist with revenues of _*hundreds of millions of dollars *_annually. And that means you COULD do a cheaper product - say $50 - and perhaps sell it to 600 people. Or a $5 product to 6000 people. It's certainly possible. There are music making apps in the $5-10 range that have sold tens of thousands of copies (or more...)

We've released a wide range of products from $20 to $350. I can say that, again, the demand curve is definitely not linear and I could certainly see how a company could succeed strictly focusing on either end.


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## imagegod (May 14, 2017)

Also be aware: You may end up competing with libraries/samples/synths/effects that are either free of cost or inexpensive to the point of free. And some of them are incredibly effective, offering unbelievable value.

Which isn't meant to discourage...value can be found in many places and manifested in many ways.

Just a heads-up.

Good luck!


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## tcollins (May 14, 2017)

It is possible to make a decent living producing sample libraries, even with a smaller operation. It does take a few years to develop enough libraries and build your customer base, but it is possible.

Some of the challenges:

-Trying to get the GUI right, so that things are (hopefully) obvious. Not everyone speaks your native language.

-Getting a script to stop doing stupid stuff you don't want it to do, and do the right stuff consistently.

-Graphic design. I often end up spending the most time on this (because it's not my strength), and it's painfully slow for me. Choose two colors, and build from that. 

-Thinking up a name for a library. This can hold me up for weeks. There are 7.5 billion people on Earth, most of whom apparently spend most of their time thinking up cool names before I do.

-Recording with close mics. It's a noisy world, and nobody wants to hear your stomach growl on the tail of that long note. Or the air conditioner kicks on. Or a train goes by. Or you pass out from holding your breath too long.

-Pirates. They will trash your world the first time it happens, and you will have to fight the urge to wallow in self-pity. This is one case where I do hire out for help to keep it under control.

It's not for everyone, but if you feel that you could be happy getting up and doing this every day, do what you love!


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## Lee Blaske (May 14, 2017)

I wonder if it's getting easier or harder to get started in this business. My instincts are that it's getting harder. There's SO much competition out there now, and some pretty fantastic products can be had quite inexpensively. Strikes me that it would have been easier to get a foot in the door a decade or more ago. Unless you have some really good ideas, the low hanging fruit has been picked. People want quality, and quality takes a significant investment.


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## Andrew Aversa (May 14, 2017)

Yeah, there is more competition for sure. Back in 2007-8 when we started, there were few deep-sampled solo instrument libraries and almost no expectation of any UI whatsoever! However, there are also a lot more people making music now.

Think of it this way - it may be harder to convince a seasoned pro composer (or long-time hobbyist/enthusiast) to invest in your samples, as they may already have a substantial collection, and already follow companies they trust & enjoy. But to a total newcomer, student, etc., it's all new. You in theory have as much chance of reaching them as any other company would.


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## Saxer (May 14, 2017)

Lot's of competition... but also a very addictive user base!


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## Alatar (May 14, 2017)

Thanks for you valuable insights. 
Maybe I should not quit my dayjob just yet. Instead I should maybe release a library first and see, how well it does


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## JPQ (May 14, 2017)

I bet also what kind libs you make and what kind computer their needed use propely.


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## jononotbono (May 14, 2017)

Alatar said:


> Thanks for you valuable insights.
> Maybe I should not quit my dayjob just yet. Instead I should maybe release a library first and see, how well it does



I think that's the best plan. Have you made any libraries yet? I plan on making some but just for myself. I don't really have any intention of selling anything commercially as I just want personal instruments and sounds but you never know what the future holds. I'm pretty sure Spitfire started out like this. Personal instruments that eventually become Professional commercial tools.


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## Alatar (May 14, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Have you made any libraries yet?



Well, that's the thing: not really. I have some mostly-finished projects lying around on my hard disk. But nothing in a releasable state yet.


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## bigcat1969 (May 15, 2017)

If you were starting from scratch with limited resources what would you develop as your first couple instruments? 

Since this is VI I'm assuming mainstream band and orchestral instruments and the intro market is saturated. Orchestrally VSCO2 Community and VPO along with Alpine if you have Kontakt are very nice for the price of free. Organs and pianos galore for free. On the band side there are several excellent drumkits, good bass, a few stripped down but nice guitars and good electric pianos. Some of the Karfyfer stuff steps above intro for free imo. So you have to go mid tier or more niche or possibly do a whole rompler to generate value over free. 

Even then the value of fairly deeply sampled instruments has dropped. If you follow sales for instance you might acquire brilliant brass and percussion sections along with a section / chord at the touch of a key type orchestra all for $200. That would have been thousands not that long ago. Or on another sale excellent solo strings for $50 bucks per instrument. How do you guys make any money?


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## jononotbono (May 15, 2017)

Alatar said:


> Well, that's the thing: not really. I have some mostly-finished projects lying around on my hard disk. But nothing in a releasable state yet.



Well the first step is actually not worrying about releasing something commercially. You aren't ready. Learn how to make a library. Then make another one. Then when you know what you doing, then perhaps release something.

People moan all day and night. They complain about everything and this goes for the biggest and greatest Sample Library Developers with huge resources. Can you really imagine the head ache you are going to have by releasing a product in the wild, to that same demographic, when you don't know what you are doing are therefore 100% guaranteed of making mistakes? Just being honest!


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## Flaneurette (May 15, 2017)

tcollins said:


> Or you pass out from holding your breath too long.



When I was recording for libraries, this really got me... one time I got pretty close to hyperventilating and panic after recording 10 seconds long notes for two hours straight. Not to mention keeping everything still and fixed. Pushing strings down for 10 seconds without making additional movements and noises was also tougher than I imagined. (I play guitar for 25 years) physically demanding.


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## Lee Blaske (May 15, 2017)

zircon_st said:


> Think of it this way - it may be harder to convince a seasoned pro composer (or long-time hobbyist/enthusiast) to invest in your samples, as they may already have a substantial collection, and already follow companies they trust & enjoy. But to a total newcomer, student, etc., it's all new. You in theory have as much chance of reaching them as any other company would.



The problems with that are sites likes this and everything available on places like youtube. Newcomers frequent those sites, and since they probably don't have a lot of money to spend, they find everything they can find that's available for free. And when they do spend money, they ask everyone what's THE BEST library content out there. The major library producers will have extensive demos from talented composers, and that content will always be displayed well.

I hate to be on the negative side, but breaking into the market in 2017 would be daunting. You'd REALLY need to bring something to the table, and that most likely would require some real talent and significant investment. You're not going to be able to break into things by, for instance, sampling your Fender Rhodes and selling a bunch of copies of that.

These days, I wonder if a better path into the wider biz might be to develop and sell preset libraries for already existing plug-ins, and/or libraries for dedicated instruments (e.g. Kong Kronos). But, those libraries are pretty saturated, too. 

Everything's saturated in the music biz.  And promotion of products that are out there is in high gear. It's just relentless. I half expect that one of these days, someone from The Loop Loft is going to jump out of the bushes and force me to buy some drum loops.


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## tcollins (May 15, 2017)

All it takes is something a little different, a new perspective, to be successful at it.


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## robgb (May 15, 2017)

d.healey said:


> I turn over about £1000 per month


Certainly nothing to sneeze at. Food and utilities for the family.


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## Mike Greene (May 15, 2017)

zircon_st said:


> And that means you COULD do a cheaper product - say $50 - and perhaps sell it to 600 people. Or a $5 product to 6000 people. It's certainly possible.


I agree with you on the $500 versus $200 versus $100 price points, but in my (admittedly limited) experience, the trends don't work the same way when you get much cheaper.

The main example I can give is RealiBanjo. It had an intro price of $29 and was selling really well, so I didn't want to change the price and ruin a good thing. After about a year, I decided it was finally time to raise the price to $49, which is pretty sizable jump. I expected my sales to slow, but to my surprise, they didn't. At all. Well, maybe a tiny bit, but it seems that anyone willing to pay $29 was also willing to pay $49.

My current theory is that when you get below 50 bucks or so, price becomes less of an issue and the question becomes more about will the customer pay anything at all, as opposed to how much would they pay. In other words, if the banjo was free, I'm sure I'd see a ton of downloads, because free is free. But if it was $1, I'm sure I would sell more copies than at $49, but I'll bet it would be less than double.

At least that's my theory . . .


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## d.healey (May 15, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> I agree with you on the $500 versus $200 versus $100 price points, but in my (admittedly limited) experience, the trends don't work the same way when you get much cheaper.
> 
> The main example I can give is RealiBanjo. It had an intro price of $29 and was selling really well, so I didn't want to change the price and ruin a good thing. After about a year, I decided it was finally time to raise the price to $49, which is pretty sizable jump. I expected my sales to slow, but to my surprise, they didn't. At all. Well, maybe a tiny bit, but it seems that anyone willing to pay $29 was also willing to pay $49.
> 
> ...


That's what I've noticed too, I sell less of my cheaper products than expensive ones, and those that buy the cheap ones or download the freebies are no more likely to buy a higher priced product.


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## chillbot (May 15, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> My current theory is that when you get below 50 bucks or so, price becomes less of an issue and the question becomes more about will the customer pay anything at all, as opposed to how much would they pay. In other words, if the banjo was free, I'm sure I'd see a ton of downloads, because free is free. But if it was $1, I'm sure I would sell more copies than at $49, but I'll bet it would be less than double.



You've discussed price point a lot on here, and I think the other forum too. I agree with you, if I want a banjo, I go and look at all my options and then I get the one that I think sounds the best within budget. I don't really care if it's $20 or $40 or $60 I just want the best one. I think a lot of people look at it like that. You don't go into it thinking, what samples can I buy that cost $20, you think: I need a banjo sample what are my options. To a limit anyway... I mean there are reasonable price points and then there is Gravity for $449. Somethings just don't make sense. (Spoiler: I bought it anyway.)

But there's another interesting thing that happens... what if one banjo is $20 and another is $120. And maybe they sound pretty similar in a lot of ways and they both sound pretty darn good. I might be *more* likely to buy the $120 banjo. In my head it seems like there's NO WAY the $20 banjo could possibly be as good as the $120 banjo and I need a REALLY GOOD banjo. So I guess it's good to know the market and see what other similar products are going for?

I needed a new acoustic bass a few months back and I narrowed it down to Straight Ahead Jazz Bass ($89) or Orange Tree CoreBass Pear ($59). I couldn't decide but I kept thinking that Straight Ahead must be better because it cost more. (Spoiler: I bought them both. Straght Ahead is better, in my opinion.)

I also tend to disregard a lot of samples and soundsets that cost under $10. There's probably a lot of great ones out there... but there also is a lot of crap out there, and it's not that it's not worth $5 (it probably is worth exactly $5).. it's that it's not worth filling out the form and your billing info and downloading it and installing it and all that. And a lot of times smaller sites have a lot of bugs with this stuff. If I see something that costs around $20 I figure it's worth the effort. I know.. makes no sense. I'm just a consumer, swayed by flashing lights and sparkly things.

Sorry... off topic. What were we talking about?


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## Andrew Aversa (May 15, 2017)

I think it depends on the audience and the type of sound. There are quite a few sites that sell, for example, preset packs and EDM-focused samples many of which are <$50. In these markets, a $100 product is definitely on the expensive side. None of us (in this thread, AFAIK) are really targeting that market. Most of us - especially on this forum - aim our releases more at pro composers, particularly film/TV/games. But that's a pretty small segment. We sold more copies of our Sonic Forest instrument ($20) than our previous ~$50-60 instrument by a factor of 5x at least.


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## Mike Greene (May 15, 2017)

zircon_st said:


> We sold more copies of our Sonic Forest instrument ($20) than our previous ~$50-60 instrument by a factor of 5x at least.


That's really interesting. Well, like I said, my data was admittedly limited.


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## Kyle Preston (May 15, 2017)

Lee Blaske said:


> Everything's saturated in the music biz.



Indeed, but many aspects of it are growing now. It's still a dynamic business.


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## pmcrockett (May 15, 2017)

My buying habits as a sample library consumer seem to fit fairly well into the non-linear demand curve that devs have proposed:

Under about $60 is impulse-buy territory for me.

I'll easily go up to about $150 if I feel like I'm getting a good deal and am likely to use the library. (So, the sweet spot for deep-discount sales, basically. This is the price range that VSTBuzz and Audioplugin.deals usually work within.)

Above $150 is usually a planned purchase that fills a specific need.

Above $400 is a planned purchase that is anticipated to be a workhorse library or to otherwise significantly impact my workflow.

I'm almost certain I've purchased more than the four times as many $100 libraries vs. $400 libraries that would be suggested by a linear curve.


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## Norbz (May 15, 2017)

Re pricepoints :: Here's an interesting part of my timeline that tripled my income, rather easily.

I was selling for $29.95, when I did pre-launch stuff I did split tests starting from $7, going up to $17, $29, $39, $49.. After all that, $29.95 was my magic number/most units moved here. To be most specific, we even tried $29.95, $29.97, and $29.99.

1.5yrs went by, we versioned twice by then, and I decided to test again, this time when I went to $39.95, I started to move more units a day (and this is going from 100ish to 130-140 units a day not 5 to 7-8, it was a big difference). I undervalued it, so did my audience, but only after I established the brand a bit. Tried $49, no go.

Now here's the kicker. My network allows 3 up-sells + 3 down-sells (meaning you can add 3 things to their cart after purchase in a "Thx for your order, would you like to add 'this one-time offer' as well for only $xx?" and a simple one-click-upsell happens if they click 'yes'), I implemented all three and had the last of the three be a monthly recur offer. Once someone has already paid for something, presenting something for double the price on the backend can turn over an amazing conversion rate if the value is there for them.

Price point split testing and adding a backend upsell-flow to my main offer literally tripled my income for quite a while after that. Probably more than triple. Customer was spending $40, now they can spend $200+ and be on a monthly recur of $20 for a long time...

OP = I would advise you to follow your intuition. If you enjoy this space, make your instrument out of love, don't rush it, look at all the things you'll need to actually launch something don't just make a simple ui + simple website with a low price and cross your fingers. Take it seriously without overdoing it re paralysis via analysis and keep getting feedback throughout your process of each element (instrument, website, copy, ads, graphics, prices, etc.).

Yes try to launch something different, or put a spin onto it - outdoing existing stuff will be difficult for sure.

EDIT: And yes there is a lot of free stuff out there, in every niche, in fact my main offer has a good dozen free alternates yet people still buy stuff and it's not always a 'no brainer' low price.

There is also a "it's free, can't be that good, I want to buy something so I know it has value" strange stigma to it, "I don't want a free drumkit when there's tons of reasonably priced legit providers I'm happy to support".. People still buy Lambo's, ppl still buy parts for their winter beater..

The rewards, if it works, are... how do I say this politely... FUKN AMAZING! If you hit, it can be lifechanging, and alternatively you can lose your shirt if you go all in on your first title and fumble too much.


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## paoling (May 16, 2017)

In my opinon it's quite difficult.

The problem is that, when you start, you have to be good at all the phases involved sample library creation. You should know how to properly record an instrument, you should have social skills to contact the right musicians, you should be able to find shortcuts to edit the samples (involving the creation of custom tools, find the right software for edit, etc), you should be able to design your own website with the integration of a shopping system, you have to script in Kontakt and to be able to properly design your interfaces, you have to create your own mailing list, to understand what works and what not in marketing, to make walkthrough videos and demos, maybe be able to make a decent video of the recording session..

And at the beginning it's unlikely that you have the resources to hire someone to make this for you. With some time you'll be able to hire other people, but, in my experience, you still have to be competent in all areas to be able to obtain what you need from the people you work with. I found a great help in my friend Olmo, mostly regarding the preplanning phase of the sampling sessions, because he's an active musician and he has great social skills. In the years we had some people who works for us part time and this has been a very important part that saves me time for the editing part of thousands of samples.

But in anycase one issue we have is that we almost invest our entire revenues in our next project: sure we are growing, but if we make a false step in the wrong direction we risk a lot. It's an amazing job, but often this is a kind of gambling and I feel that other jobs give a more relaxed sense of stability.

Also the internet can forget you fast. It's sure, a baker have to make the same bread each day in order to sell it, while libraries once produced are possibly a revenue for a lifetime. But you have to constantly remind people that you exists someway, with product after product, as Andrew says, and with the right sales.

So, when the development of library takes too much time than I've planned, I tend to feel a little agitated, because I'm already thinking about the next project to develop.

Regarding prices, I agree with Mike. Unfortunately the pricing point of a library can be thought as a quality indicator for the library. Exactly how it happens with wine. So if someone already owns a 100$ cello, he tends to avoid purchasing a 50$ cello, just because the price, in his idea, is an indicator that he already got a better instrument. Clearly these things don't apply to every customer, but sometimes it's worth to understand how pricing affect our idea of quality.

Also the type of library tends to be a very interesting thing. There are some instruments that sell just because they are a certain kind of instruments. Any "orchestral strings" instrument should sell something regardless of the quality of the package. Some words like Hybrid and Cinematic sell. Even if Rinascimento is a library of renaissance instrument we found important to mention the fact that many instruments included are medieval, because medieval sells more than renaissance.

Also working conceptually it's important. We are heading towards collections of instruments that can work inside a certain concept of music. So Rinascimento is thought about producing a certain genre of music. Eduardo Tarilonte's libraries are headed in the same direction. They are not single instruments, but complete tools to produce a specific genre of music (also for example ISW Super Audio Cart is something similar in concept).

We've have sampled some instruments, but I feel that they are so disconnected from a concept of unique music and so specific to a certain genre that I sincerely have no idea on how to release them.

Also in the end you have to try to understand who's your target customer. In our case is the "cinematic composer of music for film and media" and sometimes is the "studio producer of jazz and pop music". In Italy there are lots of things to sample that are very specific of our country. Rinascimento was one of those. But not all the musical things here can be interesting to our target customer. For example the "cantu a tenore" choirs from sardinia (which are amazing and sing with throat singing) are something never heard on a sample library but which I don't know how it would interest our "target customer".

So this job is a mix of acquiring the necessary skills in every area that concerns the development of a sample library, understanding the right budget for your sampling project, developing a site and a marketing system that works and to understand what the market needs or it's interested in.

So if you are determined go for it, but don't expect to be able to answer your question soon, because we still haven't figured it out :D


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## tcollins (May 16, 2017)

paoling said:


> In my opinon it's quite difficult.
> 
> The problem is that, when you start, you have to be good at all the phases involved sample library creation. You should know how to properly record an instrument, you should have social skills to contact the right musicians, you should be able to find shortcuts to edit the samples (involving the creation of custom tools, find the right software for edit, etc), you should be able to design your own website with the integration of a shopping system, you have to script in Kontakt and to be able to properly design your interfaces, you have to create your own mailing list, to understand what works and what not in marketing, to make walkthrough videos and demos, maybe be able to make a decent video of the recording session..



Well said, and pretty much my experience as well.


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## TTU (May 16, 2017)

Some amazing information here!


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## Jaap (May 16, 2017)

TTU said:


> Some amazing information here!



Agree!


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## Alatar (May 16, 2017)

I agree with the others above: Tons of great information here. Thanks everyone!


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## Hans Adamson (May 16, 2017)

If you can create a sample library/virtual instrument that you truly love the sound of yourself, and which you love to play, then you can be sure there will be others that feel the same, and you will be able to sell to this saturated market.


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## bigcat1969 (May 16, 2017)

Great thread thanks for the input all you dev fellows. 
Also don't undervalue being a decent human being who interacts. I spent too much and was debating getting the Ladies on the awesome sale but thought that's Mike Greene he's cool I'll buy it. ISW was awesome on a sale and a nice upgrade price and communicating about so I'll definitely notice if they have a nice Black Friday sale. And Fluffy was very kind on an email exchange and when those Ren instruments go on Black Friday sale I'll probably bite in part because the chap is a good fellow. I don't 'know' anyone from VSL or EW, so that has no impact on my buying, but these guys make you give something a second thought and maybe hit the checkout button.


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## LMTD92 (Aug 5, 2017)

Hi, 

Really interesting discussion, great to hear different perspectives! I wondered what people had found to be the most effective platform to market on for sample libraries? We started a company last year and have had a decent number of sales but feel we are missing something when it comes to marketing. We regularly do newsletters, and posts on facebook/twitter/instagram, although we just don't seem to get as much of a following as expected. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


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## Mike Greene (Aug 5, 2017)

LMTD92 said:


> I wondered what people had found to be the most effective platform to market on for sample libraries?


Definitely buying ads on VI-Control is the best strategy! Get the most expensive package and buy lots and lots of them!


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## erica-grace (Aug 5, 2017)

Norbz said:


> 1.5yrs went by, we versioned twice by then, and I decided to test again, this time when I went to $39.95, I started to move more units a day (and this is going from 100ish to 130-140 units a day not 5 to 7-8, it was a big difference).



You are moving 130 units a day? You are moving 3900 units a month @ $39.95? You are making almost 2 million dollars a year selling sample libraries?


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## Architekton (Aug 5, 2017)

erica-grace said:


> You are moving 130 units a day? You are moving 3900 units a month @ $39.95? You are making almost 2 million dollars a year selling sample libraries?



I seriously doubt he has constant sale of 3900 units per month... :D But, he might make 500k $ per year if he is lucky, certainly not 2 mil!


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## LMTD92 (Aug 6, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> Definitely buying ads on VI-Control is the best strategy! Get the most expensive package and buy lots and lots of them!


Haha we did a VI email campaign and were fairly happy with the results, and for our next library we are putting much more into advertising and have VI and some other forums on the list. From your experience have you found these forums better for building customer base and sales than platforms like Facebook/Twitter? We are trying to learn where to focus our efforts and invest our money, and as a new company we are unsure of what we should be expecting in terms of sales so it's difficult to judge how well it's working.


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## Mike Greene (Aug 6, 2017)

LMTD92 said:


> From your experience have you found these forums better for building customer base and sales than platforms like Facebook/Twitter? We are trying to learn where to focus our efforts and invest our money, and as a new company we are unsure of what we should be expecting in terms of sales so it's difficult to judge how well it's working.


Full disclosure, I now own VI-Control, so my self-serving "recommendation" was tongue in cheek. 

With my own company (Realitone), I have a few thousand followers on Facebook, but unless I buy an ad, very few people will see any of my posts. Facebook ads have been effective, although expensive. A $1,000 ad buy might yield $2,000 or $3,000 in additional sales. Good, but not great. When a product is first launched, then results will be much higher, of course, but on the flip side, the effect of diminishing returns" also kicks in, and I've had ads that were a net loss.

I do like Facebook for advertising, and that's by far where most of our ad budget goes, although that's largely because Facebook is more expensive than forum ads, rather than because I thing Facebook is more effective. In other words, a banner ad on VI-Control costs $699 for a year, so that's the end of the expense, whereas with Facebook, I do a new buy for each campaign.

One other thought with Facebook ads - it takes a lot of time to learn all the intricacies of targeting. A _lot_ of time. Forum ads are the opposite. Other than creating the artwork, there's no work. Submit and forget. I run ads on 6 or 8 sites, and can't even remember what ad is running on any of them.

Facebook is easy to monitor an ad's effectiveness, but banner ads are more of a mystery. You can count clicks, of course (although that does take some effort), but much of the benefit of a banner ad is the long term effect of seeing the product over and over again, and that's difficult to measure.

The bottom line is that I do both. My Facebook ads are definitely effective, and I _think_ my website ads (forums or "other" sites) are effective. I can't say for sure where the biggest bang for the buck is.

However ... this will sound like a sales pitch, but after buying the forum, I looked at the ad statistics and the numbers are insane, considering how low the ad rates are. Each company with a banner ad on VI-Control has their ad seen 125,000 times per month. (125k "impressions.") For comparison, I also run ads on *OtherFamousForum* and their rate is _eight times_ as much for the same number of impressions. Again, this will sound like a sales pitch, but the ads here should be way more expensive than they are. (I'd raise them right now, but most of these people are my friends, so ... )

Plus, a couple days ago, I made all the banner ads also appear on the footer (like I said, these guys are my friends), so it's almost double the impressions at no extra charge. Interestingly, the footer ads seem to have a higher click rate than the header ads, although it's only been a few days, so we'll see what the long-term numbers are later. I'm not sure that I'll continue the footer ads, mind you, but they seem pretty non-obtrusive, so I probably will.

Jokes and sales pitches aside, whether you should run an ad here also depends largely on what you're selling. If it's related to media composing, then definitely. If it's hip hop or speed metal, maybe not.


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## d.healey (Aug 6, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> However ... this will sound like a sales pitch, but after buying the forum, I looked at the ad statistics and the numbers are insane


Would it be possible for individual developers to see the statistics for their ads?


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 6, 2017)

In the interest of transparency, I feel like this is worth discussing... I find it very hard to believe each ad is viewed 125,000 times per month. I think my napkin math recently came up with a figure of... 30 ads or so? Assuming only one ad is shown at a time that's 3.75 million impressions per month.

VI-Control's US traffic rank is 37,803 according to Alexa (lower is better), 57,816 worldwide. As it happens I have realtime analytics data for another music-related website which is US rank 26,263 and global rank 91,996. So, not too far off in either direction. And according to Google analytics, there are 427,281 impressions on the entire site in a one-month period. 

@Mike Greene I don't believe you are being misleading but I do wonder where you're pulling the data and exactly which numbers you're referring to. What are the actual unique visitors and sessions per month, and the exact pageviews? Also, are you counting impressions on pages where there are 20-30+ banners all in a row? I can almost guarantee that the CTR of those are infinitesimal.


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## Mike Greene (Aug 6, 2017)

d.healey said:


> Would it be possible for individual developers to see the statistics for their ads?


Yes, but give me some time on this. I deleted and reposted all the ads a few days ago so that everything could start with a clean slate and I could be sure the numbers are correct. I'm still new to this, mind you, but I believe all I can see is the total number of impressions and clicks. I don't think I have access to day to day stats, or details of particular clicks or anything like that, although Gearslutz does (they give me a monthly report), so maybe it's possible. It's on my list to look into that, but bear in mind my "list" is a very long one. 



zircon_st said:


> In the interest of transparency, I feel like this is worth discussing... I find it very hard to believe each ad is viewed 125,000 times per month. I think my napkin math recently came up with a figure of... 30 ads or so? Assuming only one ad is shown at a time that's 3.75 million impressions per month.
> 
> VI-Control's US traffic rank is 37,803 according to Alexa (lower is better), 57,816 worldwide. As it happens I have realtime analytics data for another music-related website which is US rank 26,263 and global rank 91,996. So, not too far off in either direction. And according to Google analytics, there are 427,281 impressions on the entire site in a one-month period.
> 
> @Mike Greene I don't believe you are being misleading but I do wonder where you're pulling the data and exactly which numbers you're referring to. What are the actual unique visitors and sessions per month, and the exact pageviews? Also, are you counting impressions on pages where there are 20-30+ banners all in a row? I can almost guarantee that the CTR of those are infinitesimal.


I had the same questions, so I placed an invisible ad at the very top of this page. (Move your mouse to just above where it says your name, PM InBox and Alerts and you'll see that it's clickable.) That "ad" doesn't rotate, so in theory, it should count how many times a VI-Control page gets visited. In a week of testing so far, it gets about 80,000 impressions per day, so 2.4 million per month.

Assuming that number is accurate (this is all still pretty new to me, so maybe there's some "gotcha" lurking in the XenForo software), then the impressions per banner ad are in the ballpark. Although ... the totals for all banner ads add up to quite a bit more than 2.4 million. That's because if you stay on a page for a while, then the ad will change. In other words, ISW will be on the banner for 30 seconds (I don't know the exact time), then Realitone will replace it.

As far as why Alexa ranks VI-Control lower than your site with 427k impressions, possibly Alexa counts unique visitors, as opposed to page views? In the case of VI-C, the uniques visitors number would be far, far lower than the page views number. But with the rankings, I don't really know. Honestly, I only have _some_ faith in Alexa to begin with (I know of a few examples where rankings were reversed from what they should have been) and I'm not 100% sure that the advertising statistics I'm seeing here are perfect either. I think and hope they are, but I haven't dug into it.


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## bigcat1969 (Aug 6, 2017)

Targeted marketing baby. This is the biggest I wanna be a film score maker and all I need to be Hans Zimmer is one more good! VST gathering on earth. As well as being a pretty good place to move I wanna be Bach so give me an awesome orchestra VST. I'm guilty on both counts btw as I'm currently trying to score 'A Trip to the Moon' for baroque instruments... Numero Uno for upper and mid tier film and classical orchestral. Not so good for lower tier or free orchestral if there is any difference anymore. For the kids who want three chord loops and a cloud of dust or EDM on a 50 buck budget. Not a chance.


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 6, 2017)

Unless the analytics are from Google Analytics they aren't worth anything, so I would say start there and track the data for a month. The problem with relying on numbers from XenForo etc. is that it just tracks file requests, generally. That means it's counting every time a bot crawls the page and lots of other things that produce garbage data. Google Analytics filters that out and hones in on real, actual human impressions.

Also rotating ads are worth significantly less because users aren't likely to sit at the top and look at a banner; it's only going to be visible for a fraction of a second before they scroll, so anything beyond the first ad will likely not be viewed.


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## d.healey (Aug 6, 2017)

An alternative to Google analytics, which is a little kinder to your users is https://piwik.org/


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## Mike Greene (Aug 6, 2017)

I'll probably add Google Analytics (or piwik) at some point. (Or maybe it's already there.) I doubt the stats will be radically different from what I already have, though.

Even if they were, (and this is me being completely honest), I'm not so sure I'd want to even use those stats, since I don't think the other sites do, either. For instance, Gearslutz gives me a monthly report and the clickthrough rate (what percentage of impressions results in a click to my website) is about the same as I'm getting here, so I'm guessing their stats are achieved the same way as what I'm doing now. From a business standpoint, it would be stupid of me to broadcast a different methodology that shows fewer impressions.


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 6, 2017)

I can't speak to Gearslutz; if they are measuring impressions from their forum software just by # of times something is delivered, then they are doing it very wrong also. The point of bringing this up is to say that I don't like inflated/inaccurate numbers. Given the amount of goodwill that has been burned through by the previous administration here I think using correct numbers would be a nice gesture. Our traffic numbers from VI referrals indicate that if your numbers *are* correct the CTR would be abysmal, under 0.1%; FB would be orders of magnitude better.

To further illustrate how badly server-side logs mangle your stats, here's an example. According to my AWStats logs for Impact Soundworks, we got 93,946 page impressions in the last 6 days. The *actual* number, after filtering out robots, garbage, and other things that aren't real people? 10,793.


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## Mike Greene (Aug 6, 2017)

zircon_st said:


> I can't speak to Gearslutz; if they are measuring impressions from their forum software just by # of times something is delivered, then they are doing it very wrong also.


Yeah, but ... that's how everybody does it. What you're asking me to do is the equivalent of a car dealer adding taxes and fees to their advertised price while other dealers don't. 

Turns out it doesn't matter, though. I figured out how to check the impressions and clicks, and I can actually see a list of every single impression for the last 24 hours. Around 40% are registered members, so given that guests (different from robots) outnumber members at any given time (almost 2 to 1), this suggests the numbers are valid and that there is little bot influence to the stats. Maybe some, but not a significant amount.

Which makes sense, because a bot doesn't need to visit the site very many times to keep updated. I'll still check into Google Analytics at some point to confirm all this, but I'd be really surprised if it gives significantly different stats.



zircon_st said:


> Our traffic numbers from VI referrals indicate that if your numbers *are* correct the CTR would be abysmal, under 0.1%; FB would be orders of magnitude better.


Lower than that, even. Your CTR for ISW is around .04%. Typical for VI-C is closer to .1%. (More than double yours.). I'm not sure why yours underperforms, because it looks like a good ad to me.

FWIW, my understanding is that .1% is typical for forums like this one. Often lower, in fact. Facebook or Google CTRs will be much higher, of course, but those are much more targeted and _way_ more expensive per view. In my experience with Realitone, each "view" costs me 3 to 5 cents. Each impression on VI-Control costs me 1/20 of a penny. Facebook is a hundred times more expensive per view, and while the CTR is higher, it's not _that_ much higher.

Cost aside, banner ads are a completely different situation than FB or Google ads. A .1% click-through rate equates to one click for every 1,000 impressions. That sounds low, but if you think about it, it's makes sense. First, most people have little interest in any given product. And of those who do, they've probably already seen the ad, or perhaps already seen the product in an announcement or somewhere else, so there's no need to click. And of those who _are_ interested, but haven't already been to the website, many won't be actually _looking_ at the ad. (I can't tell you what ad appeared when I opened this page.) Many others won't want to click just yet and will be thinking _"Oh, I'll have to check that out later."_

It's also worth noting that part of the reason for a banner ad isn't just immediate clicks, but also branding. If someone sees the same ad (or company) enough times, it gets in their head.

The bottom line is if we're going to compare apples to apples, in other words, banner ads on VI-C to Gearslutz or KVR, then VI-C is significantly cheaper (per impression, which is the metric these sites use.) Plus VI-C has fewer ads on the page, so your ad isn't competing for attention with a page full of other ads, like it is on KVR or, to a lesser extent, Gearslutz.



zircon_st said:


> Given the amount of goodwill that has been burned through by the previous administration here I think using correct numbers would be a nice gesture.


I mentioned earlier that I put everyone's ads, including yours, onto the footer, basically doubling your impressions to 250k per month. I'm not charging anyone for this. With all due respect, I thought _that_ was a nice gesture.


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 6, 2017)

First of all, footers get a minor fraction of views that headers do, so again, that is using a misleading if not outright false number. You can't just multiply by two there, count bots, etc. 

Second, I guarantee you that plenty of other websites use actual analytics and not server logs to calculate their impressions stats. Again, I can't speak to GS, I don't know how they do it. But the biggest ad platform in the world - Google ads - most certainly does not use server logs, so I'd rather go by that as the gold standard (it being the biggest, most established, widely-used and widespread by every metric). You're wrong when you say "everyone" uses inflated fake stats from server logs.

Please listen to what I'm saying. VI is at a tenuous point after the debacle with Fred and the loss of a lot of trust and good will. Using bad numbers as a way of saying we're getting a great deal is very bad form and certainly doesn't want to make me spend a single cent more in advertising here.


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## Fleer (Aug 7, 2017)

This is a fine and interesting thread. Thanks for being so open about it, guys.


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## evilantal (Aug 7, 2017)

Analytics and conversions.... now we're moving into my territory


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## Mike Greene (Aug 7, 2017)

zircon_st said:


> First of all, footers get a minor fraction of views that headers do, so again, that is using a misleading if not outright false number. You can't just multiply by two there, count bots, etc.
> 
> Second, I guarantee you that plenty of other websites use actual analytics and not server logs to calculate their impressions stats. Again, I can't speak to GS, I don't know how they do it. But the biggest ad platform in the world - Google ads - most certainly does not use server logs, so I'd rather go by that as the gold standard (it being the biggest, most established, widely-used and widespread by every metric). You're wrong when you say "everyone" uses inflated fake stats from server logs.
> 
> Please listen to what I'm saying. VI is at a tenuous point after the debacle with Fred and the loss of a lot of trust and good will. Using bad numbers as a way of saying we're getting a great deal is very bad form and certainly doesn't want to make me spend a single cent more in advertising here.


Wow, this got unpleasant in a hurry.

I'm just offering the numbers I see here. I don't have Google Analytics installed (at least I don't think I do), but I explained why I believe the numbers I have are at least close. I can see the IP address for every single impression and around 40% are registered users. That's completely in line with what I'd expect if my stats are accurate, since we know most visitors are either not registered or not logged in. The numbers add up correctly to what XenForo claims (who have no skin in the game), so I believe the stats I have are at least "very close." As I said earlier, I'll install Google analytics at some point, but honestly, other things are much higher on my list at the moment than defending against claims that I'm "misleading" people.

Regarding the Footer ads, you actually CAN just multiply by two. My stats (flawed though you may think they are) bear that out. This makes sense because the ads get called at the same time as the header ad gets called on page load.

What's more, the click-through ratio for the footer ads is slightly _higher_ than the header ads. (In your case, .06% instead of .04%.) It's still very early, of course, so I'm hesitant to say that will continue, but it wouldn't surprise me, because I'm guessing many people automatically skip everything in the header, but as they scroll down the page reading posts, they're more likely to notice the footer since it signifies the end of the page. But if it makes you feel less like you're being "mislead," I'm taking you off the footer list.

Whether you think I'm trying to dupe people or not, I stand by my claim that VI-Control banner ads are a much better buy than KVR or Gearslutz. (Those are the only apples to apples comparisons we have.) KVR charges over $500 for 100k impressions. Gearslutz charges $800 per 100k impressions _if_ you buy a yearlong commitment of $9,600. That's their "best deal" Platinum package. (Their "Bronze" package will cost _triple_ per 100k impressions.)

Here at VI-Control, those 100k impression amount to around $50. I know these KVR/GS numbers because I pay them. Not only that, I can tell you first hand that the actual results (clicks to my Realitone site) do indeed cost far less from the VI-C ad than KVR or GS. (FWIW, those Realitone stats actually _are_ Google Analytics.)

Even if you think my VI-C/Xenforo stats are inaccurate, go ahead and cut them in half. Hell, cut them in fourths. It's STILL way cheaper here. (Although I contend that KVR and Gearslutz get their stats the same way I do, so I don't believe my stats should be cut at all.)

Regarding VI-C being at a "tenuous point," maybe I'm oblivious, but I don't get that impression. I think most people understand that I didn't buy this site to make money. I bought it to continue what it already was, and make it better where I can. I cancelled the email campaigns and there will be no more fundraisers. I've been as transparent as I can about the workings of the site, including _volunteering_ info that your ad has a lower clickthrough rate than you thought. (If I'm trying to "mislead" people, why would I have told you that?)

The fact of the matter is that until yesterday, there were no stats at all regarding banner ads on VI-Control. People (presumably including you) happily paid $699 for a year of banner ads without any knowledge of how many impressions they were getting. I don't get why my posting of the numbers I have (numbers I honestly believe are accurate) makes you now decide you want to pull your advertising. Granted, you may mistrust anything short of Google Analytics, but there were no Google Analytics before, either. Even if the XenForo (the forum software) numbers are "misleading" (which I contend they are not), then it doesn't mean your ad suddenly became less effective. Heck, the only thing that _did_ change was that I gave everybody free footer ads. (The expression, _"No good deed goes unpunished"_ comes to mind here.)

If you don't want to spend _"a single cent in advertising here,"_ then don't. You seem like a nice guy when we've spoken in person, and you're certainly knowledgable about a lot of things, but I'm not going to jump through hoops to make 700 bucks off of you or anyone else.


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 7, 2017)

Mike, it's the principle of the thing. I said right off the bat that I knew you weren't trying to mislead people - I said the *numbers you're using* are misleading. I explained in detail how and why those metrics were inaccurate and you doubled down on using them, even knowing that is the case.

The principle here is important. You *explicitly* brought up the numbers to illustrate how VI is such a great deal compared to other sites, and outright said that the ad rates are way lower than they should be. And that's not a true statement if the numbers you're using as wrong.

To be clear: From my 8+ years of advertising here and comparing to advertisements across a wide range of other sites and media I actually think the rates are reasonable! The best analogy I can use is if a retailer sold a product with an MSRP of $100 for $50 and said it was actually 75% off. Regardless of whether $50 is a good deal, if the MSRP is $100, it's 50% off and not 75%.

Here's what I would do if I were in your position. Rather than talk about impressions:

1. Pitch the value of ads because of the hyper-targeted audience. With sites like KVR, Gearslutz, MusicRadar (etc) you are not getting an audience of largely film/TV/game composers.

2. Pitch the value of the user engagement. People on VI stay on here for a long period of time. It's a unique site in that regard.

3. Pitch the receptiveness of the audience to purchasing products. On many other sites, people visit with the intention of talking about music production and not necessarily gear. Here, the audience by and large is frequently looking for info on what products to buy next.


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## chillbot (Aug 7, 2017)

I think Mike should step down from running VI-C. Line up the firing squad!


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## ScarletJerry (Aug 7, 2017)

I'm not a developer, but we all know that Mike is one of the nicest and best guys in the business. I'm grateful that he took over the site and I think that everyone could cut him some slack.

Jerry


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 7, 2017)

I apologize (to Mike as well!) if it seems like I'm attacking him personally. When I heard the news about him taking administration of the site I told him he was a great choice and that he has my fully support. I do still stand by that statement regardless of his choice of traffic stats; I know he wants what is best for the site.


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## LMTD92 (Aug 7, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> Full disclosure, I now own VI-Control, so my self-serving "recommendation" was tongue in cheek.
> 
> With my own company (Realitone), I have a few thousand followers on Facebook, but unless I buy an ad, very few people will see any of my posts. Facebook ads have been effective, although expensive. A $1,000 ad buy might yield $2,000 or $3,000 in additional sales. Good, but not great. When a product is first launched, then results will be much higher, of course, but on the flip side, the effect of diminishing returns" also kicks in, and I've had ads that were a net loss.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your detailed response, it's really useful for us to know this sort of information. We do track our clicks so can see where sales are coming from, but as you said it just takes a while to learn how to target effectively. Do you have any tips regarding targeting? We always try and narrow it down to what we think is our audience but the Facebook Ads in particular don't seem to deliver as much as expected. So far we are happy with the little experience we've had with VI and think banners ads are the way to go for our next product. I appreciate the footer option you have added in too, I think it's a nice gesture and can only do good to have it there - after all it's been right in front of me the whole time whilst writing this. When you were starting out did you find you had to invest a lot in to advertising to get the company known before regular sales started coming in? Alas it is neither hip hop or speed metal, but maybe next time!


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## gsilbers (Aug 7, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> Wow, this got unpleasant in a hurry.
> 
> I'm just offering the numbers I see here. I don't have Google Analytics installed (at least I don't think I do), but I explained why I believe the numbers I have are at least close. I can see the IP address for every single impression and around 40% are registered users. That's completely in line with what I'd expect if my stats are accurate, since we know most visitors are either not registered or not logged in. The numbers add up correctly to what XenForo claims (who have no skin in the game), so I believe the stats I have are at least "very close." As I said earlier, I'll install Google analytics at some point, but honestly, other things are much higher on my list at the moment than defending against claims that I'm "misleading" people.
> 
> ...




Im not THAT into the analytics but i did check this and the others analitics for price vs visitors per months and saw a glimpse of it. YEt i read thats it not THAT easy to find out and even less to predict sales. 

when we started advertising for www.Pulsesetter-Sounds.com we decided to go all out and test the waters on different forums, blogs, Facebook, etc etc. and the results where interesting. And it does follow what Mike is saying. 

GEarslutz has an insane amount of visitors but man, the (invisible-90's era) way they place advertisements and just how messy that site has become , yielded in the lowest returns ever. Unless.. you know. you are Pensado and take a picture next to a plugin. 
KVR was also interesting but similar in the oposite way; the ads placement is clutter as fuk. VI-C did have a nice mix of forum vs ad placement and thats something i liked from even before i started the company. ive been coming here for at least 5 years so I also think its about relashionships and learning others point of view. 

ANyways, the point is that the best return has been in VI-c but mainly due that the ad placement is not too cluttery and also its in a good place. 

Then again.. i shouldnt say all that because Mike will increase the rent!!!  


But one thing id like to add to this semi sour conversation is that its summer and EU countries take long vacations and that might affect the analytics a little.


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## gsilbers (Aug 7, 2017)

chillbot said:


> I think Mike should step down from running VI-C. Line up the firing squad!



We should have elections every 4 years to see who will run this place! Make VI-C great again


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## Fleer (Aug 7, 2017)

Meanwhile, pleased that Mike stepped in to run it. Man of reason, emotion and insight. And, above all, music.


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## VSTBuzz (Aug 9, 2017)

Hey Mike, on mobile, the ads aren't showing as their covered over by the navigation bar. Maybe its just on my particular browser but might be worth checking?


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## Mike Greene (Aug 9, 2017)

VSTBuzz said:


> Hey Mike, on mobile, the ads aren't showing as their covered over by the navigation bar. Maybe its just on my particular browser but might be worth checking?


I noticed that too, a couple days ago. Hopefully we can fix it, but doing any sorts of ad placement changes has been surprisingly tricky. Even the simple footer ad was anything but simple. (Well, simple for me, but not so simple for Andre, who actually had to do the work.  )


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