# Working for Free...



## SuperD (Jan 11, 2017)

So I was bored one night and decided to see what kind of composing gigs were out there on Craigslist. Found one ad looking for a composer for a feature film but no pay. I wondered who this jerk was and so clicked the link. The actual description cracked me up because it came as a surprise. It's a serious issue though... Say NO to non-paying gigs, kids!

If everyone else on the job is getting paid then the composer should too. Stand up for yourselves!

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/crg/5952302741.html


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## jononotbono (Jan 11, 2017)

What do you think about doing work for Shorts that are for Charities that only offer Expenses and 100% Credits?


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## jononotbono (Jan 11, 2017)

SuperD said:


> So I was bored one night and decided to see what kind of composing gigs were out there on Craigslist. Found one ad looking for a composer for a feature film but no pay. I wondered who this jerk was and so clicked the link. The actual description cracked me up because it came as a surprise. It's a serious issue though... Say NO to non-paying gigs, kids!
> 
> If everyone else on the job is getting paid then the composer should too. Stand up for yourselves!
> 
> http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/crg/5952302741.html



It is hilarious by the way!


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 11, 2017)

Definitely NO.....but......sometimes it might be ok. I did it a few times for people I knew, that were promoting there own company they just started and in 80% it got me follow up jobs (of course paid , if they got success. 
........20% might be sharks, that only ask you, when they have no money and go somewhere else when the job is paid.....that happened too unfortunately.


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## Markus S (Jan 11, 2017)

Yeah, this is all nice and lean, but what to do about that (from Craiglist) :

"Seeking composer - I am a visionary *adult filmmaker* who is on a mission to change the face of pornography.[...] There is *no pay*, but our talent has agreed to involve all our post crew *in the "action"* . To be politically correct, both genders are accommodated."

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/crg/5933482202.html


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## PeterBaumann (Jan 11, 2017)

In general I agree, especially if others on the production are getting a fee. I've worked on a few student films while I've been studying which have been unpaid. We were all at a similar kind of level, with minimal credits, minimal funds (personal and for the production!) so were doing it as a stepping stone to bigger, better things. 

Whilst it's not always about financial compensation - credits, festival/media exposure, future collaborations can prove even more beneficial - the issue I have come across is when others on the production are being paid, there seems to be a bit of an expectation a lot of the time that music, sound design, sound editing etc. can be achieved for free, even when finances are available to distribute fairly amongst all contributors.


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## higgs (Jan 11, 2017)

Though in general my policy is to be thankful for the offers but turn them away, I have slightly mixed feelings about free work. Here are three examples I learned from my gut feelings:

I did a bit of unpaid work for a _new_ buddy's reel to help launch his career. He then went on to pay other people once their careers started moving. _I should have trusted my gut._

Then I did a couple of goodwill gigs when I lived in Austin a few years back for some folks with whom I had built a relationship and they were busting ass to launch a film. I believed in them - and I knew where those bastards lived  Those goodwill gigs turned into a handful of excellent paid gigs which turned into even more work. _I trusted my gut._
Then I agreed to help on another freebie project but I got some other paid work which, of course took precedent. This turned out to be a real drag for the folks running the freebie project because my paid gig, along with other folks dropping out of the freebie project, cratered the entire freebie project. _I should have trusted my gut._
Bottom line for me: goodwill is a judiciously made sacrifice for those who I know & respect, for those in whom I truly believe in, and for those who I know respect me back.


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## agarner32 (Jan 11, 2017)

This is a tough call for me. Fundamentally I agree with not working for free or super cheap and I've always hated when people did. The people it hurts are the ones already making a living, I get that. The same thing happens in the performance world. Young musicians to gigs for either free or super cheap which makes it hard for seasoned professioals to make a living. The fact is, people are going to do it whether we complain about it or not. I'm not defending it, but it's not going to stop. If you're a composer sitting around never working with very little experience trying to raise your level, working on a project for free is better than waiting around for something to happen for who knows how long. It's the same old thing, if you don't have the experience or resume than it's tough to get work so what do you do?


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## jononotbono (Jan 11, 2017)

agarner32 said:


> This is a tough call for me. Fundamentally I agree with not working for free or super cheap and I've always hated when people did. The people it hurts are the ones already making a living, I get that. The same thing happens in the performance world. Young musicians to gigs for either free or super cheap which makes it hard for seasoned professioals to make a living. The fact is, people are going to do it whether we complain about it or not. I'm not defending it, but it's not going to stop. If you're a composer sitting around never working with very little experience trying to raise your level, working on a project for free is better than waiting around for something to happen for who knows how long. It's the same old thing, if you don't have the experience or resume than it's tough to get work so what do you do?



Exactly!


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## SuperD (Jan 11, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> What do you think about doing work for Shorts that are for Charities that only offer Expenses and 100% Credits?


If it's the same deal for the rest of the film crew, then sure. My problem is with the people who think that it's okay to get away with not providing any funding for the music while all others involved are being compensated. If everyone is in the project for free then there's really no problem. I've done that with small crew jobs where we were just doing it for the experience and all trying to learn, build our skills, and have something to show for it at the end. We still do it sometimes if we feel like experimenting with a certain idea. Nobody's being cheated. But when it's a real paid job, always make sure to negotiate for something fair in the scope of the budget.


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## jononotbono (Jan 11, 2017)

SuperD said:


> If it's the same deal for the rest of the film crew, then sure.



It's exactly that.
I need more experience scoring to picture and everyone has made these films for various Charities around the world for free with only Expenses being paid. The quality of the filming, well, 4 months in Africa and using Drones, so I imagine the quality of film making to be decent if these people have committed themselves to such a project. If I get the "gig" then I gain more experience, have something to "showreel", it's for Charity (which is not a bad thing), and I get official Credits for it. Plus it gets shared on Social Media. In this case, I really don't mind and see it as a positive thing.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 11, 2017)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Definitely NO.....but......sometimes it might be ok. I did it a few times for people I knew, that were promoting there own company they just started and in 80% it got me follow up jobs (of course paid , if they got success.
> ........20% might be sharks, that only ask you, when they have no money and go somewhere else when the job is paid.....that happened too unfortunately.





Markus S said:


> Yeah, this is all nice and lean, but what to do about that (from Craiglist) :
> 
> "I am a visionary *adult filmmaker* who is on a mission to change the face of pornography.[...] There is *no pay*, but our talent has agreed to involve all our post crew *in the "action"* . To be politically correct, both genders are accommodated."
> 
> http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/crg/5933482202.html




hahaha.....thats a good one......and I definitly know a lot of musicians that would change the face of pornography.....really visionary indeed !


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## Christof (Jan 11, 2017)

Does your dentist work for free?
Does your plumber work for free?
Does your lawyer work for free?


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## agarner32 (Jan 11, 2017)

Christof said:


> Does your dentist work for free?
> Does your plumber work for free?
> Does your lawyer work for free?


Here we go, I was waiting for somebody to say exactly what you said. I've heard that argument for decades. Those are different professions. Like it or not the arts follow a different set of rules. Is it going to change because working pros complain about it? The answer is no! I get it, working for free hurts professionals. I've been a victim of this like countless others. I used to get all up in arms when some college students would work for free or next to free. I felt robbed out of a gig. In the end it has not really affected my ability to make a living.

An inexperienced composer can stick to their principles and sit around for a paid gig and let all the other hungry composers get experience and build a resume or they can join the program.


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## SuperD (Jan 11, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> It's exactly that.
> I need more experience scoring to picture and everyone has made these films for various Charities around the world for free with only Expenses being paid. The quality of the filming, well, 4 months in Africa and using Drones, so I imagine the quality of film making to be decent if these people have committed themselves to such a project. If I get the "gig" then I gain more experience, have something to "showreel", it's for Charity (which is not a bad thing), and I get official Credits for it. Plus it gets shared on Social Media. In this case, I really don't mind and see it as a positive thing.


Sounds like a fine deal. Go for it & good luck!


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## John Busby (Jan 11, 2017)

this month marks one year for me on my composing journey. over the course of the year i offered services for free and the use of original tracks at no charge. My mindset behind it was to gain experience and garner relationships and what's cool is that even tho i offered work at no charge, whether it was for a family member, friend, or bonified client - when they heard the music they opened their pocket books in support of my talent and generosity. Granted, these people weren't any jo blows off the street, i either knew them personally or they were vetted and trustworthy people.

What i've learned from this and after really searching my heart on the matter, i didn't come out and charge money up front starting out just for the sake of me as a beginner and what i mentioned earlier but it was because i didn't truly believe in myself as a composer. I didn't have a clue what i was doing at first. I've been a musician for the majority of my life, but never this, not a composer, not a producer, songwriter maybe but not a good one.

But over the year I developed confidence in myself thru these free service projects, i got better with production as a whole in my daw, i found this forum and got schooled a bunch  i've grown a nice catalog of sample libraries that i can half way work my way around in now lol, i developed a great relationship with a production company after composing a trailer track for them at no charge (by the way they will be on The Blaze tomorrow discussing their projects they've hired me to compose for them...Yay! )

So it's not just about turning something down for the sake of it beeing a "freebie" but it's properly judging the situation and really considering the costs and making a decision, and hopefully one that will benefit you as a composer/musician for the future in some capacity.

Blessings
JB


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## JohnG (Jan 11, 2017)

Even if it's for free or for not much (charity, student film, you-have-no-idea-what-you're-doing-first-effort), try to get money to pay for professional-level players. That does a number of things:

1. Sounds much better so they remember what a good composer you are _and_ you have something better to demo;

2. Reminds the person asking for the music that it's not, really, free; and

3. Elevates the impression you give as a "real" musician, rather than just someone who presses F9 and -- hey presto -- out come cool-grooves-n-beats.

I agree about the plumbers and carpenters. But to be fair, most of those craftsmen, by the time you hire them, are in a union and actually know how to fix pipes or attach things so they don't fall down. By contrast, if you're like me, you scored your first student films with absolutely no idea what you were doing, so it's more like school, or training.

If you _do_ know what you are doing, and are past the rank beginner stage, or if it's a commercial project (like, it's going on television or they otherwise intend to sell it and make money) charge money. Otherwise you're being a chump.


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## jononotbono (Jan 11, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Even if it's for free or for not much (charity, student film, you-have-no-idea-what-you're-doing-first-effort), try to get money to pay for professional-level players. That does a number of things:
> 
> 1. Sounds much better so they remember what a good composer you are _and_ you have something better to demo;
> 
> ...



I agree with all this and getting live players in some context is a great idea.


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## wst3 (Jan 11, 2017)

I have a slightly different take.

I work, for free, for a local community theatre where I've been active as a lighting designer, sound designer, composer, and music director for over 20 years. I do these projects because they let me stretch my imagination, and learn new skills with minimal pressure, and have fun with a very talented group of people for whom I have great respect. I should mention no one gets paid. That's one of the rules.

Sometimes these projects lead to paid work, which is always cool. I don't go into them expecting anything, which makes that a nice bonus.

And that's the extent! Or it is supposed to be. 

If someone wants to hire me to write music or record them then I charge them. I made an exception to that rule recently - I did a bunch of voice-over recording for a long-time friend. I did it to help him get his foot in the door. He got his foot in the door and it turns out I'll be recording/editing all his future work at my customary rate. Sometimes it pays to be a good friend.

On the technical side I pretty much always charge for bench time or design time. That's a lot of work, and I want to be compensated! Besides, I am aware that not everyone can repair a tape deck<G>!

I will offer 'free' advice about studio design and maintenance to folks on a couple of forums because I'm impressed with how much information is freely shared, and I've learned a lot from others. But even this has limits, I won't do a real design for free, but if someone is willing to do most of the heavy lifting I will share my experience. In candor, very few people are willing to pay for this sort of information anymore, so it isn't like I was gonna get rich!

A couple people have pointed out the difference between artists and other professionals or trades. I think that's true, anyone that works in the arts probably has that "hot burning desire" to do good work. Which is good. And many suffer from the mistaken impression that just because it is easy for them it is easy for everyone, and therefore how can they charge. I'd ask those folks to remember the last time they were sweating bullets because they couldn't come up with a great musical idea, but we all tend to forget that little detail.

I would encourage anyone working in the arts to find the dividing line with which they are comfortable and try to stick to it. A good starting point is simply if everyone else is getting paid so are you!


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## lpuser (Jan 11, 2017)

The interesting part here is, that in most other professions, people will *never* work for free. Society is used to downloading music for free and consequently many think that composing, producing etc. is also worth nothing.
That - in general - is very bad, because everybody must pay the bills, buy food etc.

Reminds me of this


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## NoamL (Jan 11, 2017)

The very first feature I ever scored, five years ago, was a gig off Craigslist and I wrote 40 minutes of music for $500... perhaps I shouldn't admit that for professional reasons...

Here's a better story. I did an experiment because I was curious what other composers were submitting to these ads... so I pretended to be a director and submitted a fake ad for a composer to Craigslist - I did this experiment once in NY and then again when I moved out to LA. I advertised the gig as a sci fi drama feature with $2500 budget for music. In each case, I got over 300 replies to the ad in the two days I left it up on the site. In one case I got an email from an Emmy nominated composer (from his agent). Most of the replies were form letters but some poor composers were actually typing out personalized emails to every worthwhile ad they came across... what a waste of time!

The competition is stiff out there....

So... working for free: a scam or not?

The truth is if you are entry-level nobody is going to just hand you a feature, a TV film or even a consistent supply of worthwhile short films. Why would anyone producing a quality film trust you, Mr. No Credits Composer, with their project?

Your first one or two projects it's ok to work for little or nothing. Just be selective and think about what's in it for you. Don't think about it in terms of exposure or relationships, because a director who pays his composer _nothing_ probably isn't going anywhere fast and neither is his incompetently lit, poorly edited, fanfic-script trainwreck of a movie, no matter how many Big Name Festivals he says he's submitting it to. But you do get something out of it: experience writing to picture, material for your reel, and at least a nominally worthwhile credit for your IMDB. There's software that can scrape the RSS feeds of CL and similar sites based on search keywords so you can review all the day's ads in a quick 10 minute scan each evening. Just do a hard pass on all free gigs and look for something low paying but worthwhile. Directors who really *care* will write an ad that tells you about their vision, the script or the high concept, and perhaps include stills from the movie so that you can see this isn't a totally garbage film. Craft your form letter to get to the point right in the first two sentences and lead off with links to your best music, not your entire reel. Get a Low/Deferred pay gig, work it, and move on.

If you don't have even the slightest credits, good luck getting _worthwhile_ films, a composer's assistant/tech position, etc. Oh but you have a _music degree_? Is my latte ready yet?

"Does your electrician work for free?" Guess what, the electricians have a guild that artificially restricts entrance to the profession. Any college student with Symphobia and a MacbookPro can score a film. Badly? Sure, but the directors we're talking about in this thread can't tell the difference. And the truth is you, on your very first feature or short, probably don't have a clue what you're doing. Like it or not, you're probably being paid your worth and the director will be lucky if you don't massacre their project.

All of the professionals will cry "solidarity!" but guess what, there is no solidarity that can stand against the only path to becoming a professional in the first place.


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## jononotbono (Jan 11, 2017)

NoamL said:


> The very first feature I ever scored, five years ago, was a gig off Craigslist and I wrote 40 minutes of music for $500... perhaps I shouldn't admit that for professional reasons...
> 
> Here's a better story. I did an experiment because I was curious what other composers were submitting to these ads... so I impersonated a director and submitted a fake ad for a composer to Craigslist - I did this experiment once in NY and then again when I moved out to LA. I advertised the gig as a sci fi drama feature with $2500 budget for music. In each case, I got over 300 replies to the ad in the two days I left it up on the site. In one case I got an email from an Emmy nominated composer (from his agent). Most of the replies were form letters but some poor composers were actually typing out personalized emails to every worthwhile ad they came across... what a waste of time!
> 
> ...



Love this post. You speak the truth.


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## Smikes77 (Jan 11, 2017)

I posted this in another thread, and I feel the need to post it here too...


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## NoamL (Jan 11, 2017)

LOL I love all these "Never write/act on spec" video skits. They are produced by writers and actors whose professions are protected by two of the biggest unions in Hollywood. Is there a composer's union yet? Still no? Would _anyone _here be for a composer's union if every Joe "FL12 Cracked Edition" Nobody with zero credits could just join up?

It's easy to say "In what job do people work for free?" Let me turn around that question, "In what job do you get a Day One lecture on what to charge from established firms with whom you have no professional association?" All of us who are even marginally professional need to stop telling entry level or hobbyist composers how to value their first credit. Especially if like me they would be total hypocrites by doing so.

I don't think it's so terribly unreasonable to see your first credit as an expense. What was the career value of your first learning experience scoring to picture, managing the workflow of a complete film, interacting with a director, thinking in terms of arcs and story beats, etc.?

Would you rather "buy" that or another Albion?

On this forum we have no problem telling people to "follow their dreams" by sinking hundreds or THOUSANDS of dollars into sample libraries. But doing their first gig for free, the horror!

I am not only taking one side in this argument btw. I wish that more directors at the entry level were aware of how much more successful a score can be with at least some live elements. Film schools should stress this - and so should composers. If you're entry level, make sure to talk about the budget for music not the budget for the composer. Make the director understand exactly where extra money will go: you're not profit-taking, you're investing it back in the film's success.

I also believe, as I said above, that a director who really tries to wheedle you down ala Craigslist ("Think of the exposure! There's a 0.001% chance we're going to Sundance!") is a director who doesn't value the people who actually create the film - meaning, they're going nowhere fast. That doesn't mean you shouldn't take one of these opportunities, elevate the project as much as you humanly can while learning your trade, and step on it to get to somewhere else.


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## SuperD (Jan 11, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Even if it's for free or for not much (charity, student film, you-have-no-idea-what-you're-doing-first-effort), try to get money to pay for professional-level players. That does a number of things:
> 
> 1. Sounds much better so they remember what a good composer you are _and_ you have something better to demo;
> 
> ...


All excellent points! Thank you, John.


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## Replicant (Jan 12, 2017)

Damn, NoamL droppin the truth bombs


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## Smikes77 (Jan 12, 2017)

I can kind of see both sides.

Last year, I asked a friend to do post production on a music video for me - "mates rates" as he put it. It went from cooking him a chicken dinner to 2 days pay at a lower rate than he usually charges (which was actually almost as much as his usual fee).

I went through what I needed done on the video - "keep it simple, just bring out some blues and reds if you can and a couple of optical flares here and there, clean up any noise etc, but keep it simple".

He was sooooo obsessed with film that he tried to make it like a cross between a movie and a full blown £100,000 music video with the amount of optical flares he put in, literally every time the camera moved, BANG! There was a flare. I felt like I needed a pair of shades just to get through it. Plus, he washed out all the colours "to make it look filmic". I asked him to return it to what it was and basically calm the heck down.

He had a fair bit of experience in graphics and could do some cool stuff. Simple stuff - he seemed to struggle. And that`s where I believe experience in an area comes in (also, hitting the brief wouln`t hurt!) 

I felt conned.

If he had charged me according to his experience level in music videos then fine, but he didn`t.

Then again, I know at Thinkspace, they are VERY keen on you being paid if you do work for someone.

I have just done some scenes on a film whereby no-one got paid. I understood. So did everyone else. It stars a pretty big actor (certainly back in the day he was big), so I thought this was of benefit to me as well as the director. It means I get a credit.

Surely it`s not unreasonable though, to ask for a royalty, if for example, the director IS looking for financial gain (regardless of scale) from their film and you have added value to their product? (I think @JohnG pretty much said something similar).


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## synthetic (Jan 15, 2017)

Deane Ogden did a great podcast on this, "RC 0058: Working for Free." To summarize/paraphrase he says, 'OK, I would normally charge $6k or whatever to do this project, but you want to pay me in exposure. What does 6k in exposure look like? Will you feature me on your website, talk about me in interviews, bring me to film festivals and panels, ...?' And once the other side starts thinking about what they can do for you, the transaction becomes more balanced. 

Excellent podcast BTW, I'm surprised it's not mentioned here more often. 

http://www.deaneogden.com/rc/


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## mc_deli (Jan 15, 2017)

On one hand, right now, I would jump at almost any music composing gig for free. Circumstances.

On the other hand, noooo. And why? In the day job I have learnt never to work for free because of the risk involved. In a major production you are unlikely to be in control or have any real influence. You will likely have far less influence if you are working for free. You are more expendable. The risk is that this credit, exposure, networking value you have been promised might come to nothing.

And the more people involved, the more other freelancers, the more chancers, the more inexperienced people, the more risk that someone f***s it up for you. When someone blows the budget, when another freelancer irritates the backers, when the deadline is missed etc etc you have no control and the value of this project to you is immediately diminished. There is a risk that something happens that means you won't even come away with finished work, accepted work... that's why getting paid is compensation - compensation against the failures of others!

At least in a movie production, of whatever scale, there are usually a lot of people wanting to get to completion no matter what, and as a composer you are coming on board typically late when the project HAS to be completed.

However, doing pitch work for agencies is a mug's game. There, you are disposable, at the mercy of every individual in the chain, with typically no control, no influence, no visibility - it's a blind bet. And all the same potential for failure beyond your control applies. But worse. Because plenty of agency pitches have already been decided and others are there to make up the numbers. 

Moreover, in the agency world, in pitches of all kinds, there are lots of losers. A lot of agencies, suppliers, creatives etc. lose. Over and over again. There have to be losers. There's only one winner. Basically if you give your work for free to agencies you are guaranteed to be part of a pool of losers.

Remember when an agency asks you to pitch for free, typically all the other in-house creatives, project managers, producers, planners, buyers involved in the campaign will be getting paid no matter what happens. Their agency might not get the gig or the budget but they are still getting paid as individuals.


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## Daryl (Jan 15, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Remember when an agency asks you to pitch for free, typically all the other in-house creatives, project managers, producers, planners, buyers involved in the campaign will be getting paid no matter what happens. Their agency might not get the gig or the budget but they are still getting paid as individuals.


Actually, it's worse than that. Quite often when an agency asks you to pitch for a job, the account is already theirs, so they are just getting multiple composers to write the music for nothing, and then there is a choice for them and the client. They get the job, no matter who the composer is, so they don't care which composer ends up scoring the ad.


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## Replicant (Jan 15, 2017)

Working for free is bad when you are working for individuals, companies and corporations with money to spend.

Working for free on indie projects where nobody has any money and is simply doing this to gain experience and credits is fine and essentially necessary for the vast majority of composers who hope to have any chance in hell of ever becoming a professional.


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## jcrosby (Jan 15, 2017)

Working for free...


Is a zero sum game.

Not only does it devalue your work, it has the potential to devalue others work as well by setting a belief that custom, curated music has no more value than a ripped mp3... The more jobs someone takes for free the more it spreads the belief that musicians or artists will work for free because they're either desperate for for exposure, or exposure is a valid form of payment. There are exceptions, but I need to see proof in the pudding before I lower my rates or donate my time. 

It's fine if you are just getting started, but after a couple projects you should always ask for something even if it's just beer money... 

I always send these two links to people asking me to work for free:

https://8dio.com/2015/01/20/how-to-ruin-your-career-and-bring-down-the-music-industry/

http://shouldiworkforfree.com

It either sends them packing or opens up some interesting discussion 


(Another favorite link I send if it seems like they're fishing for fast food labor...)


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## procreative (Jan 18, 2017)

lpuser said:


> The interesting part here is, that in most other professions, people will *never* work for free. Society is used to downloading music for free and consequently many think that composing, producing etc. is also worth nothing.
> That - in general - is very bad, because everybody must pay the bills, buy food etc.
> 
> Reminds me of this




Doesn't stop them trying. I work in the design industry and there are loads of people that try this at both the bottom and top ends of the market. And since the advent of eLancer and all those other sites clearly aimed at 3rd worlders using a most likely torrented copy of Adobe CS its got worse.

Technology has meant we can all be designers, photographers, composers, authors, film-makers so those services have become devalued by the masses due to the proliferation of Wix type sites.


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## jonnybutter (Jan 18, 2017)

I think there are basic ethical problems with working for free, too. And it's not just in the arts, but all throughout the business world in the US (unpaid internships).

Problem one is that it severely limits who can do it; to work for free/in an unpaid internship, you need either well-off parents to feed and house you or some sort of lucrative day job (and maybe no need for sleep). If you are brilliant but poor - too bad. The US doesn't have a 'dole' or anything like it, so this is an inefficient, skewed way to do things.

Problem two is that expecting anyone to work for free in a business (not art) situation - even if they are willing to do it - is not ethical on the face of it, is it? In the old days entry level ppl might have gotten a low wage, but they didn't get *nothing*. If you charge nothing, guess how you and your work will be treated?

Unless it really is a labor of love (particularly if it is for _everyone_ - i.e. shooters, DP, et. al. also not getting paid), I'd advise against working for free. It's almost never worth it. Even if it's a ridiculously low hourly rate, you should get something. Even charity projects usually pay *something*. If you want experience, re-score scenes that already exist or work on interesting art pieces. I mean, it's up to you, but I don't see any upside to working in the commercial (including wannabe) realm for free.


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 19, 2017)

I don't think we should try to stop people from working for free. 

Everybody has their own reasons or motivations for work. If free work is bad, is work for below minimum wage bad too? What is the minimum level of compensation that should be demanded? These situations get intense, so let each composer choose his/her own destiny.


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## Smikes77 (Jan 19, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> I don't think we should try to stop people from working for free.
> 
> Everybody has their own reasons or motivations for work. If free work is bad, is work for below minimum wage bad too? What is the minimum level of compensation that should be demanded? These situations get intense, so let each composer choose his/her own destiny.



I think the argument here is that eventually, those composers will also choose YOUR destiny too, as noted by @jcrosby


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## jemu999 (Jan 19, 2017)

The problem is... you won't be asked to score a film, until you have scored a film.
Catch 22.


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## Smikes77 (Jan 19, 2017)

jemu999 said:


> The problem is... you won't be asked to score a film, until you have scored a film.
> Catch 22.



Indeed.


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## jonnybutter (Jan 19, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> I don't think we should try to stop people from working for free.



But this is a strawman, Desire. This OP/thread is predicated on the idea that no one *can* stop anyone from doing anything. The real argument is about whether ppl _should_ do it. Aside from the ethical argument (which I think is strong, but really is just icing on the cake) I say that it's almost never worth it, unless it really is an art piece that you will be proud to show or are excited about in some way. There's a lot of persuasive practical reasons not to work for free enumerated upthread. So if you want to argue, I'd say the burden is on you to tell us when it *is* a good idea to score a film for free (since the norm is getting paid for working). I can imagine doing a scene or two in some circumstances, but a whole commercial film? Nope.

Obviously, ppl have to make their own decisions.


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## Studio E (Jan 19, 2017)

I would like to comment with my own personal experience with doing free work. In a prefect world, artists would all get paid and paid well all the time. This is not the case.

My very first project I ever did, which I was truly thrilled about, was a bicycle safety film for a contractor working for a government agency. At the time, I was using Cubase SX1 I believe, and all outboard synths, like a Roland XP-30, Korg N1R, and a Yamaha AN1x. The contractor was a friend of mine and I don't think money ever entered the equation. I just wanted a shot. He was taking a chance on me to deliver as an unknown quantity.

I really don't remember many details, other than the client being pleased with the entire production. After that, he offered me a PSA for money. He asked how much and I named my price (it wasn't much). Then another came along, and then he was hired for a local campaign commercial, and another and another and another. Along the way, his production company won a few awards for the productions I was a part of. I was now their go-to guy for all things music and have been ever since. Later this year, I have my firs feature film coming up from the same production company. It's their first chance and they made sure to offer me the chance to come along for the ride and again, named my own price.

Another thing; About 4 years ago, I went to a local film festival to meet directors and network. During a break, I walked right up to a guy who seemed like he was interacting with a lot of other folks. I basically introduced myself as a composer who was looking for more film work. He turned out to be both a director and the head of several local film making clubs/agencies in the area. He in turn, took me around and introduced me to many other directors, all small-time stuff but serious artists just the same. It turns out, they were about to start a film festival and screenwriting contest for students in the local K-12 school district.

That first year, I volunteered to score a film. They were all short films between 5 and 12 minutes. So I score that first one, and then a lot of other directors were asking about me. The next year I score 6 for the festival, then 5 the next year, and I stepped in down to two this last year. It has been a lot of work, but I can't even begin to express how much my writing, mock-ups, and mixing grew from working on those projects in particular. This is to say nothing of dealing with about 7 different directors, finding the language between us that would work, learning to communicate, fight for what's right, cave-in to their ideas sometimes, but overall, make art better than the years previous and learn precious life skills at the same time. One more thing; It was basically a gift to the community. The kids writing for the screenwriting contests were getting their movies made by this local group of VERY dedicated film makers. I can't count the amount of thank yous, compliments, and general applause I have received for my work there.

Work for that troop really got my name out in the community and lead to other paid work, accolades, speaking engagements and the University of Illinois, etc. It has been a great experience of growth that I made happen by offering my services and I wouldn't second guess it for a minute.

I have finally reached a point where I have become saturated with offers and am now turning a lot of free or low-pay things away. I'm not making a living through composing, so my situation isn't on a professional level, but still, it's made for a nice little chunk of change here and there. Everyone's situation is different. If the opportunity for working for free is something that you think will benefit you, why shouldn't you do it? Don't stay there any longer than you need to, but just get moving.

The final note on this; I feel that this problem also solves itself. Anyone who does enough free work, will certainly tire of it. At first the adrenaline will carry you through, maybe the promise of more exposure will get you through another project or two, but eventually, you'll have had enough of being taken advantage of, if that's the case.
Hope any of this helps.


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## Kony (Jan 19, 2017)

Studio E said:


> If the opportunity for working for free is something that you think will benefit you, why shouldn't you do it? Don't stay there any longer than you need to, but just get moving.
> 
> The final note on this; I feel that this problem also solves itself. Anyone who does enough free work, will certainly tire of it. At first the adrenaline will carry you through, maybe the promise of more exposure will get you through another project or two, but eventually, you'll have had enough of being taken advantage of, if that's the case.


Great post and I totally agree with this comment in particular.


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## mac (Jan 20, 2017)

If I were offered the chance to score the next Christopher Nolan movie for free (maybe some coffee and biscuits), would I do it? You're god damn right I would, in a heartbeat.

Yeah @Rctec, you'd better hope Chris doesn't hear about this, else it might be the end of your cozy little set up!


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## jonnybutter (Jan 20, 2017)

Studio E said:


> In a prefect world, artists would all get paid and paid well all the time. This is not the case.



I like your story, but the above is another kind of pseudo argument, like 'we shouldn't stop people'. A non existent perfect world has nothing to do with the question at hand.

I don't mean to berate anybody who wants to do what Studio E does. I just think the idea of working for free should be the rare exception rather than the rule, and that it usually isn't a good path to a career (as his own story illustrates). I started out doing training films and PSAs and the like too, but I got paid. It's not a perfect world to get paid for your work - it's a _normal_ world. Did producers take a chance on me in the beginning? Yes. So? When did it become acceptable for only the people at the bottom to take chances? 

I realize that the world has changed since I started (in the 80s), and part of that change is via technology, but another part is a change in attitudes, e.g. the 'sharing economy'. If people think they can get music for free, they definitely won't budget for it. If I am going to work for free, I'm going to write what I want to write, not kilos of underscore.


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## Replicant (Jan 20, 2017)

I wasn't going to go all out with my opinions in this thread because I don't want to upset anyone, but whatever; here goes:

*It's as simple as this*: You need credits to get any worthwhile job; working on lame indie projects is your internship. The reality is that these projects are made by recent graduates, hobbyists and other hopefuls working two jobs to pay off their pile of student loans. _You may never get out of this level no matter how good you get or how many projects you do
_
My experience is primarily in video games, but it always blows my mind on even those projects how there can be a 5-man team of a programmer, an artist, a sound guy, a level designer, etc. all spending countless hours developing the game on their own time, hoping it will be a success that leads to better things, but here comes the self-taught composer, demanding that he be paid $1,000 a minute. Really? Allow me to introduce you to the editor who started editing video as a hobby on YouTube when he was 13, put himself into debt to go to film school and can edit like a seasoned pro at the age of 21. He's doing this for credits, but you, with little or no experience, feel you _in particular_ need significant financial compensation because you're the music guy? Right.

_Stop expecting Hollywood pay on Backcountry-Alabama budgets
_
To insist that people working on small projects that aren't turning any sort of profit is killing the big dogs is ridiculous.

Perhaps it's unwise to admit this, but full disclosure: The first indie game I did was a paid project, generously I might add given that I had no experience, I just knew I could write catchy tunes and I wanted to do it. You might wonder how I could have the opinion I do given this fact. It's because the guy who hired me was a _pro_. He and his associates had a huge list of impressive credits and this was to be their first non-AAA title together. It remains the most high-budget project I ever worked on...and I was a _total_ n00b and they knew it. They had money to spend, so they got right to the point about how much they could offer me right away. They needed a musician, they liked my tunes and they were willing to give me the chance.

You know what that taught me?

If you're ever going to be a professional, making serious money — it will just happen if it's ever going to. If one day, some big-name Hollywood producer/director asks me to score his upcoming film, he knows that I know damn well that there's 200 million dollars going into this movie and that I'm not going to do it for nothing, so better put an offer on the table or start asking for prices right off the bat.

Until that day, and that day may never come despite all your networking and credits, you have two choices:

You either stop at 3 indie films and say "I'm only taking decent-paying gigs now" and possibly never work on anything ever again.

Or you continue to do what you (supposedly) love, keep improving your craft, keep networking and keep composing and if you're lucky, one day you may earn yourself the position of only being able to take gigs that pay X amount of dollars.


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## jononotbono (Jan 20, 2017)

Replicant said:


> I wasn't going to go all out with my opinions in this thread because I don't want to upset anyone, but whatever; here goes:
> 
> *It's as simple as this*: You need credits to get any worthwhile job; working on lame indie projects is your internship. The reality is that these projects are made by recent graduates, hobbyists and other hopefuls working two jobs to pay off their pile of student loans. _You may never get out of this level no matter how good you get or how many projects you do
> _
> ...



Thanks man. Excellent.


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## Kony (Jan 20, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Thanks man. Excellent.


+1


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