# In there anything better than vinyl?



## chillbot (Nov 17, 2016)

If no, please tell me why. If yes, please tell me what. If this is in the wrong forum, please move it.

OK I have terrible ears, I'm not a sound engineer, ok? I have what I consider "consumer" ears.

I normally listen to music via MP3 or Amazon or Pandora which is terribly compressed. So maybe vinyl just spoils me relative to what I'm used to hearing.

Right now I am listening to a $20 record (Zero 7) on a cheap $40 turntable going into a $10,000 digital mixer via $3 RCA cables playing on $5,000 monitors.

All I know is the sound seemingly FILLS the room like nothing else I've heard. I feel like I'm there with them. It's the only way I can describe it.

Recently I listened to "Kind of Blue" and I've listened to this album probably 300+ times on CD over the last 20 years and I heard stuff on vinyl that I've never heard before. I was so amazed I A/B-ed it against my CD copy. Night and day. Keep in mind I have terrible ears. But the vinyl version felt like waves of warmth vs my digital CD on the same speakers, same track.

I have a vague understanding that analogue should sound better than digital, I get 44.1k and 48k and the way audio waveforms are and the way that they're sampled. I don't understand necessarily why A) my vinyl sounds so fucking good through the same digital mixer and a $3 cable and B) why everyone isn't doing it. I mean we bitch and moan about every little thing on this forum, why isn't vinyl a thing? I haven't gone 96k yet, would that fix it?


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## colony nofi (Nov 17, 2016)

Vinyl is its own beast. It introduces its own non-linearities into the system. Its by no means perfect at all - but for whatever reason, humans tend to enjoy those imperfections. 
Damn - there's so much at play here I'm not sure where to start.
But - yes - there is "better" than vinyl from a mathematical and physics perspective. And even perhaps from a musican perspective - but then it depends on which perspective you choose, and for what reasons.

I'm not doing a great job of explaining anything really am I?

Its like asking - why do I still enjoy recording to Tape occasionally - when we KNOW that it introduces distortions into the signal chain? Is it partly because those distortions are pleasant to our ears / brain? Or is some of it the romanticism of cleaning the tape heads with alcohol, the action of putting the tape on the machine... watching the physical object as I'm working. Even hearing the whirr (its not always easy to acoustically isolate tape machines from your mixing room!)

For Vinyl, there is of course the act of actually putting on the record. Having the record in front of you - the cover, the artwork. The object. That changes the way you listen. You're also listening where there isn't a screen. We hear differently with different amounts of light going into our eyes. We concentrate more on sound when we shut our eyes / things are darker around us (less visual stimulation.)

There are even scientific papers written on this exact subject if you are interested.

So - to answer your question, you need to specify what "better" actually means. 

If by better you mean "closer to the original recording / sound that the engineer heard in the mastering suite" - then yes. There are measurably better methods of listening / consuming music.

But if by better do you mean the enjoyment and emotion you get from listening to music a particular way (or even collecting the object - and the phycology of collecting) - then for many many people, vinyl wins.

I've rambled.....


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## chillbot (Nov 17, 2016)

I love your response so much, thank you. 

I will say that you are correct, the reason I bought a turntable in the first place about a year ago is because I love the process of "putting on a record". It's a whole thing that involves a lot more thought than just clicking on Pandora. I don't dwell on the album cover or art so much as just knowing you have a few minutes then you have to flip it. Vinyl causes me to sit and listen instead of putting it on in the background while I'm doing other things. 

I'm more curious why it sounds so much better and so fulfilling to my ears and about the imperfections that you mention.


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## mverta (Nov 18, 2016)

3M 996 tape hit a little hot. That's the one that put the hook in me, and changed my ears forever.


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## husselblum (Nov 18, 2016)

I'm loving and enjoying vinyl as well - I love the whole procedure of putting a record on and quite enjoy the haptics of a record, the cover etc. Also I really just listen to the whole frigging record and don't jump around from song 3 to 5. 

About the sound quality I'm not really sure. One thing to keep in mind is the influence of the actual master you are listening to. This can get pretty confusing with all the different versions, remasters etc. The CD and vinyl you have might just be a different Master of the record and if so it should be possible to get a CD that sounds just as the vinyl does.

I tend to think that if you have a digitally produced record it shouldn't be possible that it sounds any different on CD than on vinyl. If the record is an analog master, well - things might change as they do when you use tape compression etc. I've got different vinyl versions of the same album and while one sounds crappy the other one is splendid.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 18, 2016)

Vinyl was and is always a sonic compromise in a pressing from a great master tape. Also, it degrades with repeated plays,even with a good stylus and avoiding scratching.Digital is more accurate and has gotten better over time as the gear and the measuring tools got better.

The only thing I miss about vinyl records is the art work.


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## chibear (Nov 18, 2016)

I vividly remember when one of my friends caved and bought his first $1800 CD player and we all gathered to behold the wonder. It did deliver on the huge undistorted dynamic range (which has been pretty much eliminated in modern production) and the instruments that depended on sibilance were greatly improved. However high female voice, and high strings especially were and are extremely harsh compared to vinyl and the real thing for that matter. IMO that was the result of digital recording rather than the actual media as ADD CDs sounded much warmer and IMO better than DDD. There simply is less information in digital vs analog.

BTW a few months ago an advert came across my Facebook about a new needless turntable that reads the vinyl grooves with a laser. That should take care of the deterioration issue.


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## Tysmall (Nov 18, 2016)

http://productionadvice.co.uk/vinyl-mastering/
interesting read, tdlr is vinyl mastering is done with more dynamic range in most cases. You can't say one is better ... digital is cleaner, and is actually more dynamic (we just don't use it that way). So i guess you could call that better. But I think what you're hearing is a less squashed track which sounds better to your ears. compression ruins a stereo image and all the fake panned reverb in the world (stereo enhancer plugins) can't bring that back to life ... hence your "fills the room" analogy.

my two cents on the question.


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## chillbot (Nov 18, 2016)

The only benefit I see to digital is the convenience... you can skip around, you can transfer it on a usb stick or on the internet, you can listen to it while you run or in your car, it's cheap, it's convenient. These are all really great qualities. But if it was just about audio I would want to always hear it on vinyl. Maybe it's because my ears are so crappy I don't hear all the benefits of digital. I A/B a lot of stuff between vinyl and CD and it's an enormous difference to me. Vinyl sounds "deeper" to me, I don't just hear the music I hear the room sound, I hear the chairs creak or a foot tap on the floor. I imagine you can hear all that extraneous noise with digital but you have to listen for it. CDs sound like I am listening to a recording playing back on speakers, vinyl sounds like I am listening to live music.


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## Living Fossil (Nov 18, 2016)

Autosuggestion is a mighty sword when it comes to listening to music.
Maybe the mightiest of all.


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## d.healey (Nov 18, 2016)

> In there anything better than vinyl?


Vinyl's good, easy to clean and fairly hard wearing, but have you tried laminate? Or even real hardwood? It costs more but will definitely last longer. Another alternative is good old fashioned carpet, I prefer a shorter pile as it's easier to clean. If it's for a kitchen, bathroom, or hallway then maybe tiles/slate would be a good choice. Don't limit yourself to vinyl, there are so many more options.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 18, 2016)

d.healey said:


> Vinyl's good, easy to clean and fairly hard wearing, but have you tried laminate? Or even real hardwood? It costs more but will definitely last longer. Another alternative is good old fashioned carpet, I prefer a shorter pile as it's easier to clean. If it's for a kitchen, bathroom, or hallway then maybe tiles/slate would be a good choice. Don't limit yourself to vinyl, there are so many more options.



80,000 comedians out of work and this guy is cracking bad jokes


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 18, 2016)

I still listen to my records all the time.

They do sound great. And guess what? I have the output of the phono preamp connected to inputs on my audio interface, which eventually goes to my speakers.

That says there's no problem with digital audio. Those recordings simply sound good, between the tape and other stuff in the signal path (including the phono cartridge), dynamic range (which is ironic, because 16-bit audio has a much greater one), and just the sheer production artistry.

Also, they spent months making most of those albums, and they come from a great era in music. That has a lot to do with it too!


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## chillbot (Nov 18, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> They do sound great. And guess what? I have the output of the phono preamp connected to inputs on my audio interface, which eventually goes to my speakers.


This is what I was wondering about. I think I'm using an rca cable that I probably picked up in the days of Radio Shack too.


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## Studio E (Nov 18, 2016)

I've got to brag for a second, which is not my style but I wanted to share this. Last weekend I traveled to Nashville for a recording summit at Welcome to 1979 Studios. There were all kinds of panels over the weekend and a party Friday and Saturday night. 

At Friday night's party, there was a special surprise guest artist showing up to do a live direct to disk (Vinyl Lacquer) recording. In other words, an entire band recording in the studio and being mastered to vinyl at the same time. The guest artist ended up being Jason Isbell who I just so happen to love (and so should you ) Anyway, that was awesome. When the recording was finished, they plated the lacquer, created a "father", then a "mother" and then a "stamper". They sent the stamper to Memphis at 4:00 am on a personal plane and had records back to sell for the Saturday night party. It was amazing.

Secondly, the Saturday night party was a listening party. We sat in the control room which is quite large, probably nearly a hundred people. They turned down the lights and we listened to the original vinyl release of Purple Rain. The cooler part of the story is that we were sitting with Susan Rogers in the room. She was the one and only engineer for that entire album. it was her and Prince for the whole thing. Once the album was over, we had a Q&A with her between the audience and a reporter from Tape Op magazine. It was a WAY cool experience, not to mention all of the other amazing behind the scenes people I got to hang with.

I hadn't heard Vinyl since the early 80s and I was amazed at how good it sounded. I'm definitely planning on getting back there next year if not sooner.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 18, 2016)

Anyone remember the Sheffield Labs direct-to-laquer recordings?

I still have Thelma Houston and the Pressure Cooker. Every great session player from the mid '70s is on it. Outrageously good.

Unfortunately I don't have the Lincoln Mayorga ones. Those are also great.


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## jamwerks (Nov 18, 2016)

There's a new Waves Vinyl plug


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## synthpunk (Nov 18, 2016)

Same here. Listening can be spiritual on vinyl... Billie Holiday, John Coltrane, Van Morrison, etc. Not sure if you get the same vibe from newer vinyl. I have been told by local records stores that boom is more due to college students and millennials just liking to have the format in there hands, rather than the listening experience.

I also listen to much digital music as well (on my music server), sometimes its just more convenient.

Nick, yes I still have my Sheffield Labs.... James Newton Howard with the Pocoro's, Lee Ritenour, Flim & The BB's, etc.




Nick Batzdorf said:


> I still listen to my records all the time.
> 
> They do sound great. And guess what? I have the output of the phono preamp connected to inputs on my audio interface, which eventually goes to my speakers.
> 
> ...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 18, 2016)

College students, millennials, baby boomers - having the album in your hands and being able to read it while you listen is part of the whole thing. The White Album was a huge uproar because it was blank!

Wouldn't it be great if listening like that came back...


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 18, 2016)

Vinyl is what I'm used to. For example, going out in 1967 and buying Sgt Peppers and getting home and putting on my Hacker stereo record player still sounds better than a CD. It sounds better than years later on a Linn through an A&R amp and Heybrook speakers.


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## synthpunk (Nov 18, 2016)

I think budgets are so small it might not. For 95% of the world the cell phone, laptop, and ear buds is listening to music now. Still, once someone hears a good table/cart/setup and wax through tubes & horns, they understand the magic.

It was down to one vinyl pressing plant left in the U.S. as recent as about 10 years ago. Now most of those old lathes are in the hands of small labels doing vinyl again, like Jack Whites label in Detroit for example.

It's well worth supporting Record Store Day and Small Business Day because without those record shops there is just itunes. Most disturbing I recently was disturbed to see my favorite record store Amoeba Records in L.A. sold out there location to "business interests".

Highly recommend the documentary All Things Must Pass about the Rise & Fall of Tower Records by Colin Hanks. Might still be on Netflix.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> College students, millennials, baby boomers - having the album in your hands and being able to read it while you listen is part of the whole thing. The White Album was a huge uproar because it was blank!
> 
> Wouldn't it be great if listening like that came back...


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## Dietz (Nov 18, 2016)

chibear said:


> I vividly remember when one of my friends caved and bought his first $1800 CD player and we all gathered to behold the wonder. It did deliver on the huge undistorted dynamic range (which has been pretty much eliminated in modern production) and the instruments that depended on sibilance were greatly improved. However high female voice, and high strings especially were and are extremely harsh compared to vinyl and the real thing for that matter. IMO that was the result of digital recording rather than the actual media as ADD CDs sounded much warmer and IMO better than DDD. There simply is less information in digital vs analog.[...]


There's a reason why early digital releases sounded "harsh": It is due to the fact that the mixes they relied on were made with the lossy, sonically limited target format "vinyl" in mind. This meant that the mixing engineer had to anticipate this loss by over-emphasizing those frequency ranges. (I'm old enough to have done that myself, back then. 8-) ...)

Well-done modern digital releases will out-perform vinyl easily, both in respect of frequency range and dynamic width. - That said, I want to point out that I like the warm distortion of the LPs and singles in my collection a lot, too. I just don't expect any "truth" from them


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## synergy543 (Nov 18, 2016)

Dietz said:


> There's a reason why early digital releases sounded "harsh": It is due to the fact that the mixes they relied on were made with the lossy, sonically limited target format "vinyl" in mind. This meant that the mixing engineer had to anticipate this loss by over-emphasizing those frequency ranges. (I'm old enough to have done that myself, back then. 8-) ...)
> 
> Well-done modern digital releases will out-perform vinyl easily, both in respect of frequency range and dynamic width. - That said, I want to point out that I like the warm distortion of the LPs and singles in my collection a lot, too. I just don't expect any "truth" from them


Well said Dietz. I couldn't agree with you more. 
However, much like politics, unless you've been there, experienced both extensively, and have become enlightened through experience, its difficult to convey this to non-believers!


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## patrick76 (Nov 18, 2016)

chillbot said:


> Right now I am listening to a $20 record (Zero 7) on a cheap $40 turntable going into a $10,000 digital mixer via $3 RCA cables playing on $5,000 monitors.


I was expecting to see audiophiles outraged and disgusted over your use of $3 cables, but sadly my expectation was not realized. Where are the righteously indignant $20k cable users on this forum? Was looking forward to a 25 page explanation about high quality cables...


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## InLight-Tone (Nov 18, 2016)

The landfills are happy for the demise of vinyl, 8 track & cassette tape etc....


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## LamaRose (Nov 18, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Also, they spent months making most of those albums, and they come from a great era in music. That has a lot to do with it too!



That's a great point. And a lot of that great earlier stuff was recorded/mixed for mono.


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## chillbot (Nov 18, 2016)

Tonight I'm listening to Beastie Boys.


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## LamaRose (Nov 18, 2016)

Survey says:




Nothing beats vinyl.


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## Arbee (Nov 18, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Vinyl was and is always a sonic compromise in a pressing from a great master tape. Also, it degrades with repeated plays,even with a good stylus and avoiding scratching.Digital is more accurate and has gotten better over time as the gear and the measuring tools got better.
> 
> The only thing I miss about vinyl records is the art work.


Although I'm always surprised how good the best vinyl albums still sound, I have to agree. Do I miss having to keep the bass down on the inner tracks to avoid the needle jumping? Or hyping the mix to compensate for the production loss? Hell no. I released an album in the late 80's that was one of the early ones on both vinyl and CD, very challenging (I also remember the first 24 track Sony digital tape machine being something north of $500K?  ).

Maybe I'm just not romantic enough, but I don't miss vinyl at all. Oddly enough, I do miss CDs though. Something tactile just makes you feel better about it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 19, 2016)

It's not vinyl I miss - for one because I still have all my records. But I miss the album as an artform. It was created as an up-sell from 45 singles, but it turned into a real artform of its own.

And while I love slamming, hit-you-in-the-chest production like "Shut Up and Let Me Go" by the Ting Tings - a study in fitting simple parts together like a jigsaw puzzle - I also miss the subtle dynamics in older pop productions. Drums without every hit being as hard as possible also groove.

It's all colors. I went to a press tour of Bruce Swedien's studio in the early '90s, where he played his latest Michael Jackson mix (so loudly I'm still shaking). He delivered different songs on different media. Some were on tape, some DAT. It was because of the sound he was after.


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## synthpunk (Nov 26, 2016)

Just a quick reminder that today is Record Store Day and small business Saturday please support your local record store if you have a chance they do appreciate it looking forward to our trip to Princeton record Mart in the next little while


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## synthpunk (Feb 21, 2018)

Henry Rollins on why vinyl matters 
https://reverb.com/news/henry-rolli...is-a-must-have-i-wouldn't-have-them-otherwise


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