# Orchestral Reverberation



## Jeffrey Peterson (Oct 31, 2011)

I know this has been discussed....but lets discuss it again.

If you please of course....

I'm still not clear on this problem. I understand that we all should "do what sounds good" but please don't give me that BS answer that belongs at Gearsluz.com 
I'm not an engineer and frankly I have bad ears when it comes mixing. I would like some guidelines please, until my ears get developed.

When I get in the studio the last thing I want to do is dink around with a reverb, I want to sit down and compose....but thats me.

Now to the question. We all have multiple sample libraries, some are as dry as the drive to Las Vegas, and others wet as Seattle in spring. The are all recorded in different spaces. Symphonic Orchestra and HS strings for example have Mics with great REAL ambiances, but you put them together with no artificially added reverb and it doesn't sound just right. Why? Obviously because they were recorded in different locations. 

Now, I'd rather not get into specific sample libraries but I am just using SO and HS as an example. 

Most libraries have a recorded ambiance of some sort that sounds great if you only use that specific library and in a lot of these libraries you can turn off the natural reverberation and have the sample dry. So is it better to...

A. Keep the recorded ambiance of each different library(if it fits the mix of course) and then apply an overall reverb to everything? For example 1 with a short ms for Early Reflections and 1 with a longer decay. Say 0.8ms and 6.1 depending on the mix.

or

B. If possible, keep everything as dry as possible. Forget the "recorded ambiances" of each library because they will conflict with one another and create chaos and wars in the mix. Once they are dry as the Sahara...THEN apply 3 reverbs. All sounds into 1 and only 1 reverb while that reverb is bused the 2 other reverbs. 1 to create a sense of space, another for early reflections and another for long decays. The first reverb will be bussed in with the sounds into the early reflection reverb and the long decay(like a cathedral). But the Short reflections will not be bussed in to the long decay...they will each separately be sent to the master track with no relation to each other.


What are you thoughts? A or B. Feel most free to correct my assumptions and understanding of both components of A and B.

Thank you.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 1, 2011)

Jeffrey,

I am sorry but if you dont want to 'Dink' around with reverb then I am afraid you need to hire an assistant engineer to do the reverbs for you.


But if you really want to do it right and care about the aesthetics of sound, then as a modern day composer, you must immerse yourself in technology and keep an open mind. There is no easy way to do this and there arnt just a bunch of tricks that will help you get a good sound. 

At the same time its not as trivial as it may seem. 

Think of your reverbs and eq's as also a means to communicate your ideas through the wonderful world of audio. The computer is also an instrument and needs to be mastered just like any other. 


If you do a quick search on reverbs, you will find many, many threads dedicated to this topic.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## Daryl (Nov 1, 2011)

Hire a good engineer. Get him/her to mix a couple of your tracks, question them at every turn (almost to the point of being annoying) and when they're gone, reverse engineer their mixes.

D


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 1, 2011)

Daryl @ Tue Nov 01 said:


> Hire a good engineer. Get him/her to mix a couple of your tracks, question them at every turn (almost to the point of being annoying) and when they're gone, reverse engineer their mixes.
> 
> D


That is a great idea. I'm going to do that. All the online tutorials and videos in the world are never gonna match up to a few hours in the company of a dedicated professional who is working on YOUR music.


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## Andrew Christie (Nov 1, 2011)

vibrato @ Tue Nov 01 said:


> Jeffrey,
> 
> I am sorry but if you dont want to 'Dink' around with reverb then I am afraid you need to hire an assistant engineer to do the reverbs for you.
> 
> ...



Couldn't have said it better myself.

Also don't underestimate the power of EQ for placing instruments in a 'space' and helping multiple libraries blend well together.

In regards to ER's/Tails 0.8 - 6.1ms sounds a bit short to me. I'm usually around the 30 - 60ms area.


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## Jean Paul (Nov 1, 2011)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Tue Nov 01 said:


> So is it better to...
> 
> A. Keep the recorded ambiance of each different library(if it fits the mix of course) and then apply an overall reverb to everything? For example 1 with a short ms for Early Reflections and 1 with a longer decay. Say 0.8ms and 6.1 depending on the mix.
> 
> ...


Well for Option A, why would you want to put ER reverb on samples with baked in room. To me this is asking for trouble and will create a muddy sound. If the sense of space is already in the samples then all you probably need is a long tail, to make everything glue together and sound in the same hall.

As for Option B, if the samples are dry, I normally send all instruments going to 3 ER reverbs busses depending on the depth and position, and one Tail reverb at the final mix bus.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Nov 1, 2011)

Thank you Jean Paul. Those are great guidelines and thoughts. I heard you music and your very talented.

Daryl and Unfinished, thank you I might do that, I've had mixers mix my stuff before but I always thought I was prying if I asked questions. 

30-60ms tail Andrew? Most of QL Spaces and Altiverbs are are .8 -15ms. 

Vibrato I know you mean well but please respect my wishes in my original post and leave useless replies like that at Gearslutz. I already know I can "search the web for info". Did you expect me to reply and say, "wow I've never thought of that Vibrato...thank you so much for that valuable piece of info. I'm requesting typical guidelines that people use on there professional setup/template(referring to the original post. I'm a working composer not an engineer and I don't want to spend a week of dedicating my time dinking around with a reverb. Some people like doing that. You for instance I'm sure. Some people like playing with EQ's, Reverbs, Compression, and sound modulation and those people are typically more like "engineers" than musicians. To me its dinking around. To you its an art, and rightfully so. I believe it is an art because experienced engineers are Artists who are amazing at what they do and I respect that very much. However playing with a reverb to me is like doing taxes...but again...thats me.


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## Jean Paul (Nov 1, 2011)

Thanks Jeff. Here's an old thread that you might find useful.

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20664

And as Andrew mentioned, ER pre-delays are normally in the range of 20 to 70 ms. It is higher for closer instruments, and lower as you go further away. The ER room needs to be short enough to give the sense of depth. For tails in normal orchestral halls it ranges from 2.5 to 4 sec. I sometimes add a slight dash (like 4%) of a 6 sec tail for an extra smooth finish.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 1, 2011)

Jeffrey,

You posted in a public forum and asked for something to which I thought my reply was correct. My information (though it is common sense) is something to definitely try out. There are in fact a number of threads on reverb which you can access by simply searching.

Here are the reasons why I reccomended this:

1. You have not posted your music or asked for any kind of specific help that would get you specific replies. 

2. You have not clearly mentioned what sort of problem you are having with using reverbs. 

3. You have not mentioned what tools you are using to create your virtual environment.

4. I am not a professional mixing engineer and would in almost all cases, rather have an engineer do my mixes. But until such time where I can completely rely on a pro engineer, I must learn to create a rather decent sounding virtual stage. I am not suggesting that you must focus on reverbs all the time.

In fact, building a template is difficult in the begening but once its done and if intlligently done - you will not need to 'dink' around much at all.

If you are a working composer, you would already know that having a great sounding template is important because a lot of times, it goes straight with a few stems to the engineer or in worse cases, doesnt go to an engineer at all.

Of course, we all sit and compose as best we can but if you do post any specific question, people will come up with specific replies.

Unfortunately, if your question is as general as it is, I would reccomend again, reading previous posts and absorbing them.

This is not Bull Shit or Useless info that should be left at Gearslutz - whatever that means.

I am sorry, I could not be of any particular help to you. I hope in the future, I am able to contribute better.


And yes, of course I meant well. Why would I mean otherwise.


Regards,

Tanuj.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 1, 2011)

And what is complete Bull Shit is what you said about people using EQ, Compression and Reverbs. 

It is really sad that you think such people are lesser musicians and you automatically assume that I am a better engineer than a musician and some how possibly hide my musical weakness with the help of engineering.

You cannot truly learn more about this area with such thoughts. 

Sad.


Tanuj.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Nov 1, 2011)

I apologize Vibrato. I did not imply that engineers are "lesser" musicians, I have great respect for their abilities and ears that I do not have.

I would like to keep this thread on topic if possible Vibrato, thank you for your input.

Please refer to the original post.

I'm revamping my template and am still wondering if I should get everything as dry as possible first, then apply reverb. This will tie everything together nicely but then I hate the idea of not using the natural recorded ambiances of each instrument. 

Thoughts?


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## Andrew Christie (Nov 1, 2011)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Wed Nov 02 said:


> 30-60ms tail Andrew? Most of QL Spaces and Altiverbs are are .8 -15ms.



Wow really? Looks like I need to get with the program! :lol: I've found that to short of a ms tends to confuse the sound, maybe I'm just using bad IRs, and I'm not gonna argue with QL Spaces or Altiverb! 

(PS I don't own Spaces or Altiverb)


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Nov 1, 2011)

We must be looking at 2 different things.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 1, 2011)

Hello Jeff.

I find that the following has helped me:

1 - Worry about verbs last. Just compose with sounds you are inspired by then get a good volume balance between the instruments as you go. Your ear will be the judge of that.

2. - Once your comp is done (almost done) start getting creative with verbs and EQ. Why would you fiddle around with verbs and space first if your comp is half done. you don't know what other instruments you might add, which would lead to you making a better plan to how you want all your sounds to sit in a certain space when it's almost done. If you put verbs on at the start, as you add instruments, you'll probbaly change what you did anyway which makes me not see the point in putting verbs on just yet.

3 - While composing, make notes of how you would like your sounds to 'sound' and where you want them to be placed. I make notes such as, "Ambient verb/cut bass and high end/little bit of mids" You know.....

You just need the idea and once you have that you cannot go wrong.

4 - Don't get annoyed, but I used to ask questions like you, maybe I still do? but what I have realized is that there are only guidlines you can follow to an extent. Your song will be different to someone elses, therfore different verbs and sounds. My guidlines for you is if there is already a tone of verb on the samples you are using... just don't add any. I would infact mix and match any other sound around the verby samples you have in your track. Dont use too much verb either. It really depends on the sound.

5. - I'd like to hear the current song you are working on. It would help us help you. Therefore more in depth guidlines as you wished.

6. - You should dink around with verbs. It's the only way you learn. The amount of hours I have dinked around let me tell you! I just expriment in any way I can. 

7. - If you are using QL Spaces, then I don't why you would need to dink around so much, or say that it's like paying taxes. QL Spaces is just a matter of choosing your prefered space and using the pre delay and mix knob. It takes away all the mind numbing work, compared to other verbs which have a billion knobs!

It's tough mixing tracks there were recorded with different mics, in different rooms, played by a bunch of different players at different velocites, ect ect. This is why I admire HS. The environment it was recorded in is just simply perfect IMO. That studio has a brilliant sound. The close mics are almost dry, infact I wouldn't want any dryer. The mid mics are a bit fatter, more of a natural sound to the ear. The main mics are fat a big sounding. Perfect for epic and BIIGGG ambient style string pads and such. Then you have the surrounds which are pefect for placing the sound a little bit more in the space. Its just amazing. Libraries that are completely dry, almost dead, such as VSL is just simply not the right idea because it's unnatural. Us humans don't hear nearly dead strings and perc, so the studio environment is perfect for the sample world and the studio EW recorded HS in is what I wish every sample library was recorded in. 

Peace.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 2, 2011)

Jeffrey, 

I am working at the studio right now. But , here are a few pointers to help you get started.


First, thing to consider is which is your main core orchestral library? Is it a library that has reverb in it or is it something like VSL? 

If its Hollywood strings for example which has reverb in it, it's best to match your dry sounds with that kind of reverb.

My core library is VSL. So here is how I do it...


I have three instances of Vienna ensemble which have the basic eqs and exciters ex on them.

I lower the volume to mimic natural instrument volume. That means a solo flute cannot sound as loud as the first violin section. So you need to balance your levels here first.

So for example, first violins at, let's say -3 dB and flu 1 at -18 dB. I don't know my exact values, they keep changing but you get the point.


After you have done this - bring all your sounds inside your DAW either from the VSt rack or Vienna ensemble or play.

I then create several reverb fx or aux channels. I have the following:

1. Strings ER
2. Strings LR - late reflections

Similar channels for woodwinds, brass and percussion. After this I have a master reverb channel to add a lush reverberant sound to glue things over all.

When you have finished doing this, crea following group or aux channels:

1. Strings dry
2. Strings wet
3. Strings bus

And so and so forth for each section.


Once all of this is set up, do the following-

Send three signals from each output of each section - like violins, 2nd violins, violas,cells, brass and woodwinds in the same way.

You wanna send the output (dry signal) to the corresponding dry channel. And the output of the ER and LR channels to the wet aux channel. Then you must send the output of the wet and dry channel into the corresponding Bus channel.


In this way you can control at any given point in time the dry,wet or the combined signal simply with a fader instead of going inside the reverb and spending too much time there.


Send all of the bus channels into yet another aux channel called Master Orchestra. Ad send the percussion stuff to a new aux channel called percussion. This is useful as you can balance the levels between percussion and rest of the orchtra on the fly.

You will obviously need to adjust the various faders to get the right blend between ER and LR.

I will post in detail later.


Hope this helps. I may have skipped a few basic points in between.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## devastat (Nov 2, 2011)

I don't see myself very technically savy person and QL Spaces gets me very close to a sound (in terms of reverberation) I like by just using the presets, not that much tweaking around is required except to increase or decrease the wetness of each preset.. 

I usually apply a different reverb to each group of instruments, I have woodwinds in my track and I try the different presets in the Woodwinds "folder" in QL Spaces, one for brass and so on.. I never apply any additional reverb onto samples that already has reverb recorded on location I just tweak the mic positions (when available) to fit the mix.

I apply one of the scoring stage presets on the master bus and I get to very close to a sound I like.

I constantly compare my mixing decisions to a reference track that I like.


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## John Rodd (Nov 20, 2011)

I am not a composer..... but I am a pretty experienced orchestral recording, mixing and mastering engineer (along with non-orchestral music)

I know a lot of composers do some complicated things with a pre-delays, multiple reverbs, etc.......

*but at a basic, simplified level *- if you give me ONE very good "large hall" reverb preset (say, on a TC 4000 hardware unit - that can be had used for about $1,500) and give me all the virtual orchestral instruments as dry as possible... I can do a very good mix..... but of course I use all the mixing tools available such as EQ, panning, etc. as well.

But a lot of this has to do with mixing skill, of course. :wink: 

See my website for some examples of my mixing all virtual orchestras...... and hybrid scores... (and all live, as well)

just my 2c.

John


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