# Interesting statements on U-he product development from Urs from a recent thread @KVR (link bottom of post)



## kgdrum (Dec 25, 2022)

“
I might add, we have had an exceptional year. Not much of a sign of a downturn. We haven't "teamed up" with NI out of desperation.

We do think very, very long term though. It's not like we need to fill gaps in our portfolio. Instead, we feel we can build upon the portfolio we have. I think we have reached maybe 10% of the market share that's possible. Maybe 25% with Diva, maybe 5% with Repro or Hive. That's like more than the rest of my leftover average life span, so no rush from my side.

I do feel the urge to develop new stuff. I crave doing a proper Mini, a Cat SRM, a JP-4, a S 770 or 800DV, the Synthex. We have new algorithms and technologies that IMHO absolutely rock, Z3 stuff.

But alas, let's finish Filterscape, Uhbik and Tyrell first. While that happens, bit and pieces of Z3 come together.”

- U

“
You have no idea how disappointed I am by all those latest Minis from the most reputable developers. They're like made by people who never touched a Mini, or who thought "let's get rid of all the quirks that make a Mini a Mini and push this dead sounding piece of code onto our followers". I could




“

“Thing is, emulation quality has *IMHO* gone down after Monark and The Legend, instead of building upon the status quo that was already reached. I wouldn't mind a MS-20 either. I'm more into its predecessors though. We have two 770s, a vintage 700, a new 700s and an 800dv. Maybe a crossover of all of them.”



> By latest I assume you mean CA?


“Look, I'm trying hard to not mention any names directly. But honestly, I don't even know CA made one. So no, I did not mean that one, I meant everyone that came after The Legend.

Let me also say that I think some of these Minis sound gorgeous, possibly better than anything I would have come up with. I just disagree with their development team (or marketing) on what's part of the Mini's character, and where to simplify/"fix" the model.

I also disagree with marketing lingo like "every single component modelled blah blah" when clearly, even with "fixed" components that bear no part tolerance, the circuitry reliably behaves differently. It means, by simple deduction, certain parts were not modelled and the marketing lingo is simply deceiving.

I have considered sending those companies a list of my disappointments. I have also considered posting my list of disappointments online. But then I thought I should simply put together my own Mini and let that speak for itself. I just don't know where to take the time to finish that project.”



> When its done, do you plan to slap it onto Diva or a standalone like Repro?


“I intend to add it to Diva *and* make it standalone.

Adding things to Diva may make them less obvious. For instance, gain staging... in Diva there's a difference if you use "Amplifier Volume" (voice parameter) or "Output" (global parameter). Only with Amplifier Volume cranked up fully you might get the typical Mini sound.

I have therefore thought about a concept I call "Diva Singles", which would have only ultra-faithful emulations of selected (as in: not all, rather few) synths. These would either be free with Diva (potentially a 2.0), or they'd be a separate thing. These would not be catering for mass usage, these would rather be there for reference. These would rather be mono synths. I don't know. It seems like a time consuming thing that may cost us more than we'd gain.

OTOH we always wanted to extend Repro with pun versions, like Repro-DG ("Re-Prodigy"), Repro-DC ("Repro-Odyssee"), Repro-BX ("Repro-OBX"), that kind of stuff.

But then of course, we'd rather love to get back to our concept of modelling the Cat. But that could also be part of... uhm, I don't know. Decisions, decisions.

So yes, there are numerous concepts of what we could do. We do have to think about commercial viability, I can't just pursue those out of personal ambition (vanity?).

For now (and for the next year or two) we're concentrating on Filterscape, Uhbik, TyrellN6 and Zebra 3.”

”
Some thing happen in parallel and/or leverage each other. For instance, the new filters in Filterscape are partially shared among Uhbik and Zebra3. 

Most of Filterscape work is a makeover of UI and content. The UI needed a speed-up and improvement for the EQ-curves. Latter is leveraged for Uhbik and Zebra 3 as well.

Most leftover work of Uhbik 2 is the surround part, UI speed-up (EQ curve...) and some more refinements in UI design. One example: The new reverb algorithm is not surround-enabled yet, and the developer isn't working at u-he anymore. This is why we put Uhbik last of our main products after MFM and Filterscape.

TyrellN6 is mostly UI makeover, content makeover, and maintenance. New Preset browser and tagging, for instance. In an initial step there won't be any developers involved. Later on we want to also add a "pro" version with extra features, but we have no clear roadmap for this.

Now, as for Zebra3, if I hadn't also had to work on Satin (which turns out, needs me for another week or two before we can release it), I'd only be doing things that are only or partly useful for Zebra3. Anything that's necessary for MFM/Filterscape/Uhbik that is *not* possible to leverage for Zebra3 is done by other developers, or by the design and content teams.

Or, as someone once said, everything is somehow related to everything else, somehow, which again is somehow related to every other thing.”










KVR Forum: u-he sale via iZotope - u-he Forum


KVR Audio Forum - u-he sale via iZotope - u-he Forum




www.kvraudio.com


----------



## dyross (Dec 25, 2022)

This is all fascinating, and exciting (though in a patience testing kind of way).

It does seem like his complaints about the Minimoog emulations are pretty clearly pointing at Softube's. I sold the Legend after I bought Model 72, but haven't used the latter much yet so maybe I made the wrong choice (not because Urs doesn't like it, though that's interesting, but because I don't use it now that I have it).


----------



## kgdrum (Dec 25, 2022)

dyross said:


> This is all fascinating, and exciting (though in a patience testing kind of way).
> 
> It does seem like his complaints about the Minimoog emulations are pretty clearly pointing at Softube's. I sold the Legend after I bought Model 72, but haven't used the latter much yet so maybe I made the wrong choice (not because Urs doesn't like it, though that's interesting, but because I don't use it now that I have it).


I actually like the Softube synths but in any case for me it’s really interesting to hear Urs thoughts on product development and hear how he‘s trying to update and improve the U-he product line.


----------



## cedricm (Dec 25, 2022)

kgdrum said:


> “
> I might add, we have had an exceptional year. Not much of a sign of a downturn. We haven't "teamed up" with NI out of desperation.
> 
> We do think very, very long term though. It's not like we need to fill gaps in our portfolio. Instead, we feel we can build upon the portfolio we have. I think we have reached maybe 10% of the market share that's possible. Maybe 25% with Diva, maybe 5% with Repro or Hive. That's like more than the rest of my leftover average life span, so no rush from my side.
> ...


Yay to Diva 2!


----------



## diswest (Dec 25, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Yay to Diva 2!


When Zebra3 development was confirmed in this way, Urs wrote this:


> P.S.: The term "started to work on" certainly means at least 6 months until we'll see anything!


Back in 2012 😄
So, I wouldn't hope for the near future.









KVR Forum: Zebra3 Info - u-he Forum


KVR Audio Forum - Zebra3 Info - u-he Forum




www.kvraudio.com


----------



## KEM (Dec 26, 2022)

All I care about is Zebra3


----------



## doctoremmet (Dec 26, 2022)

In the mean time I’m having fun with CA Sines and GX80. Synths that actually exist.


----------



## doctoremmet (Dec 26, 2022)




----------



## kgdrum (Dec 26, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> In the mean time I’m having fun with CA Sines and GX80. Synths that actually exist.


I think we are all having fun with synths that we’re already using that actually exist. For me it’s interesting to hear Urs perspective on synths,effects etc…..and get a glimpse of his roadmap and plans for various products in the U-he line.


----------



## doctoremmet (Dec 26, 2022)

kgdrum said:


> I think we are all having fun with synths that we’re already using that actually exist. For me it’s interesting to hear Urs perspective on synths,effects etc…..and get a glimpse of his roadmap and plans for various products in the U-he line.


Oh absolutely. Urs is a talented developer. He just talks a LOT. At some point this past decade I sort of lost interest.


----------



## D Halgren (Dec 26, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Oh absolutely. Urs is a talented developer. He just talks a LOT. At some point this past decade I sort of lost interest.


If you think about it, really, he just responds a lot. People constantly distract him with questions of when and what.With Zebra 3, it is going to be hard to live up to the hype. That must be a hell of a weight to carry.


----------



## doctoremmet (Dec 26, 2022)

D Halgren said:


> If you think about it, really, he just responds a lot. People constantly distract him with questions of when and what.With Zebra 3, it is going to be hard to live up to the hype. That must be a hell of a weight to carry.


Very true. I am in no way disrespecting or criticizing the man. Just expressing my own fatigue


----------



## D Halgren (Dec 26, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Very true. I am in no way disrespecting or criticizing the man. Just expressing my own fatigue


I know, you are a very reasonable person, and a lover of great sounds! No slight on your statement.


----------



## Pier (Dec 26, 2022)

Other than Zebra 3, I'm hoping for a Uhbik Rack. Urs has teased it a couple of times but it's still not clear if it's going to happen or not.

What I would really love is a U-He rack or modular with all their stuff. At the very least having the Uhbik DSP inside of Zebra 3. But I'm 99% certain that's not going to happen either. Unfortunately U-He tends to limit the scope of their products in some weird ways which I find very frustrating. Why doesn't Diva include a sequencer? Why doesn't Bazille include a proper reverb or even better modular effects like Zebra? Etc.


----------



## vitocorleone123 (Dec 26, 2022)

dyross said:


> This is all fascinating, and exciting (though in a patience testing kind of way).
> 
> It does seem like his complaints about the Minimoog emulations are pretty clearly pointing at Softube's. I sold the Legend after I bought Model 72, but haven't used the latter much yet so maybe I made the wrong choice (not because Urs doesn't like it, though that's interesting, but because I don't use it now that I have it).


I never used The Legend after learning it - it was good for that. Model 72 both sounds better AND is more authentic overall in terms of features. And The Legend was better sounding than Monark. I generally prefer my SE-02 to any Model D, though.



> If you think about it, really, he just responds a lot. People constantly distract him with questions of when and what.With Zebra 3, it is going to be hard to live up to the hype. That must be a hell of a weight to carry.



Another way to view this is that he ALLOWS himself to be distracted. It's mostly on him, not the people asking questions. He also chose to make a hardware unit when all people wanted was software.

Urs said


> I also disagree with marketing lingo like "every single component modelled blah blah" when clearly, even with "fixed" components that bear no part tolerance, the circuitry reliably behaves differently. It means, by simple deduction, certain parts were not modelled and the marketing lingo is simply deceiving.


When talking about softsynths, he's likely correct. However, there IS someone modeling each component better than U-He currently seems to, and that's Andy @ Cytomic. Go get The Scream and be amazed. He's also applying that tech to his other products, supposedly. I've read he dreams of making a synth, but... the wait on that is probably at least as long as the wait for Zebra 3 has been.


----------



## diswest (Dec 26, 2022)

Pier said:


> Other than Zebra 3, I'm hoping for a Uhbik Rack. Urs has teased it a couple of times but it's still not clear if it's going to happen or not.
> 
> What I would really love is a U-He rack or modular with all their stuff. At the very least having the Uhbik DSP inside of Zebra 3. But I'm 99% certain that's not going to happen either. Unfortunately U-He tends to limit the scope of their products in some weird ways which I find very frustrating. Why doesn't Diva include a sequencer? Why doesn't Bazille include a proper reverb or even better modular effects like Zebra? Etc.


All these synths are old. Nobody expected such popularity of modular back then. Zebra 3 is supposed to be more modular if I remember correctly and it uses many things from other plugins.

Also, U-he is quite small company. Look at the Clap, even their own synths aren't ported yet. Every macos update is months of delay. These synths are old, you can't just make them modular. It tons of work and tons of resources. Urs told that Twanstrom, Colour Copy and maybe Hive came to support company and fund future development.

One more thing makes me curious. Urs often says that some parts of code can be made only by him. I have no idea what is the reason of this, insufficient funds to hire more professional team or something else. But I see a bottleneck here which slowdowns development even more.
It's neither good nor bad, it's just our reality. However it's one more answer to your "why"s.

---

I'd love to see deeper U-he and Bitwig collaboration. You don't need to build a modular environment inside your synth when your daw is a modular environment. Just release your synth as a set of separate plugins/modules. But this is not the best solution from commercial point of view.


----------



## biomuse (Dec 26, 2022)

“Satin needs me…”

Hmm.


----------



## tmhuud (Dec 26, 2022)

Seems like attention spans are shrinking exponentially... 

Good work Urs. Take your time and make it good. Thanks for all the explanation. The more, the more we know what is happening the better. 

Regardless of your direction I know it will be good. Kudos for you not getting swallowed up by the 'Big Fish'.


----------



## Pier (Dec 26, 2022)

diswest said:


> Nobody expected such popularity of modular back then.


Reaktor was already pretty popular back then. In fact IIRC NI actually started working on it since the 90s and it was called Generator.



diswest said:


> Also, U-he is quite small company.


I could be wrong but, as someone who has been a U-He customer since 2010, I do think it's more of a philosophical thing rather than a lack of resources or even technical limitations.

U-He has a framework and they re-use it across their products (eg the preset browser). Diva could have had the same sequencer as Zebra for example, or Hive could have had the MSEGs from Zebra, or Bazille could have had the same effects grid as Zebra, etc, but they explicitly decided not to do those things.



diswest said:


> Urs often says that some parts of code can be made only by him. I have no idea what is the reason of this, insufficient funds to hire more professional team or something else. But I see a bottleneck here which slowdowns development even more.
> It's neither good nor bad, it's just our reality. However it's one more answer to hour "why"s.


There's a lot of heavy math involved in coding DSP so it's not something that can be easily delegated.

And then there are other difficulties inherent in running a software company. What if the person that worked on some complex algo leaves the company? If bugs arise in that code it takes 10x the effort for someone else to understand how it works. And yeah you can document, do code reviews, etc, but that also can have a big burden on a small company.

Sascha Eversmeier left U-He after almost a decade of working there and from comments by Urs it did have an impact on the company.



diswest said:


> I'd love to see deeper U-he and Bitwig collaboration. You don't need to build a modular environment inside your synth when your daw is a modular environment. Just release your synth as a set of separate plugins/modules. But this is not the best solution from commercial point of view.


Yes, but what if you don't want to use Bitwig? Right now I'm working for a client that uses Cubase so how am I supposed to deliver sound design work if those modules or presets are Bitwig exclusive?

Also what if you want to make presets that can be easily loaded and distributed? Having a proper preset browser that can load presets quickly for easy iteration is not something that any DAW has. In part because the UX is not there yet but also because loading a bunch of third party plugins takes time. In Zebra you can click on a preset and in less than 1 second you can play the thing.

The solution has to be something that is DAW-independent and that doesn't use extra layers like VST or CLAP.

VCV is almost there but it has other issues for preset distribution.

Reason Plugin could be it. I'm testing that right now.


----------



## fakemaxwell (Dec 26, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Another way to view this is that he ALLOWS himself to be distracted. It's mostly on him, not the people asking questions. He also chose to make a hardware unit when all people wanted was software


You can always tell when Urs (or Charlie Clouser or Hans Zimmer on VIC) are procrastinating on something based on their posts. As somebody who does exactly the same thing, it's nice to see people at the top of their relative game suffer from the same issues 🤣


----------



## cedricm (Dec 26, 2022)

diswest said:


> All these synths are old. Nobody expected such popularity of modular back then. Zebra 3 is supposed to be more modular if I remember correctly and it uses many things from other plugins.
> 
> Also, U-he is quite small company. Look at the Clap, even their own synths aren't ported yet. Every macos update is months of delay. These synths are old, you can't just make them modular. It tons of work and tons of resources. Urs told that Twanstrom, Colour Copy and maybe Hive came to support company and fund future development.
> 
> ...


What I'd love is CLAP support in Studio One


----------



## diswest (Dec 27, 2022)

Pier said:


> Reaktor was already pretty popular back then. In fact IIRC NI actually started working on it since the 90s and it was called Generator.


It was supposed to be a platform to build synthesisers. Juce is even more modular in this way. But we're talking about something more consumer friendly, aren't we?
Also, existence doesn't mean popularity. Even now, despite on growth of popularity last decade, modular is still more for geeks.
And when we talking about popularity of reaktor, how many users really used it like a modular?
It's like Kontakt which is powerful sampler but wast majority of users have never sampled anything.
I don't argue with you on popularity of reaktor, but I still insist on arguable popularity of modulars event now.


Pier said:


> I could be wrong but, as someone who has been a U-He customer since 2010, I do think it's more of a philosophical thing rather than a lack of resources or even technical limitations.


Regardless of the reason U-He *is* a small company with limited resources. It's important in the context of discussion.


Pier said:


> U-He has a framework and they re-use it across their products (eg the preset browser). Diva could have had the same sequencer as Zebra for example, or Hive could have had the MSEGs from Zebra, or Bazille could have had the same effects grid as Zebra, etc, but they explicitly decided not to do those things.


Reusable components weren't here from the beginning. Now they are trying to unify stuff, but there are a lot of legacy.
You should remember how long they moved all their plugins to this presets browser. And this is not even a part of sound. Just imagine how accurate they should be to not accidentally change the sound.
For example, Urs told that it's easy to create a new version of Zebra almost from the ground than modify the voice structure of synth to allow it accept MPE. At the same time works with MPE.
But again, I partially agree with you. Not all these decisions are made by technical limitations. Some of them are Urs' vision. As customers we can agree with the vision and buy product or not.



Pier said:


> There's a lot of heavy math involved in coding DSP so it's not something that can be easily delegated.
> 
> And then there are other difficulties inherent in running a software company. What if the person that worked on some complex algo leaves the company? If bugs arise in that code it takes 10x the effort for someone else to understand how it works. And yeah you can document, do code reviews, etc, but that also can have a big burden on a small company.


From engineering management perspective one of most dangerous things is "only one person can do this". If you're a small company this may cost you the whole business.
I always pushed my employees to keep bus factor at least at two. There are many ways to skin that cat.
Anyway, my curiosity wasn't about how this is possible that only Urs can do that. It's more about why they've chosen this way.



Pier said:


> Yes, but what if you don't want to use Bitwig? Right now I'm working for a client that uses Cubase so how am I supposed to deliver sound design work if those modules or presets are Bitwig exclusive?


With all due respect to you, I didn't include you in my wishes 😁
Also, I mentioned that it would be not the best solution from commercial point of view. Exactly because of potential user base.
But it would be viable marketing decision if Bitwig fund that. Like Max for Live. You still can use Max standalone but M4L is integrated and bundled into the daw.



Pier said:


> Also what if you want to make presets that can be easily loaded and distributed? Having a proper preset browser that can load presets quickly for easy iteration is not something that any DAW has. In part because the UX is not there yet but also because loading a bunch of third party plugins takes time. In Zebra you can click on a preset and in less than 1 second you can play the thing.


I didn't say it must be the only distribution format.
Have you used Softube Modular? I can buy a dedicated non modular synth like their moog emulation and use parts of it as a modules. I'd love to see something like this but with Bitwig as it's much more versatile modular platform than Softube modular.

In Bitwig I could use Bitwig presets to save my multi-manufacturer modulars. Yes, I'll not be able to reuse these presets in other daws but I'm ready to pay this cost for such feature.

Also, when I work on sound design I don't care a lot about time of loading of one more plugin. It's usually faster than repatch patchbay or real modules. And much faster than get this dusty synth which I didn't use for months from the top shelf, find a power supply, find free inputs in a mixer, find working midi cable and so on.



Pier said:


> The solution has to be something that is DAW-independent and that doesn't use extra layers like VST or CLAP.


Solution for what problem? If you're still talking about my wish then I didn't mention these limitations. My problem is like "I want an oscillator from Bazille mixed with an Arp 2600 oscillator from V collection through Diva MS20 filter with Juno chorus modulated by Zebra MSEG splitted by bands with Bitwig spectral tools and processed with my favorite delay on the high band and Softube compressor on the low band".

I want to go one step deeper from what VST offers and combine plugins parts rather than plugins. Bitwig workflow is most similar with that at the moment. If there will be another daw which better fits with this idea I buy it as I bought Bitwig, so you statement on DAW or plugin format independence is not a case for me. If it will be a new standard supported by any major daw I'd be even happier. Before Bitwig I used Blue Cat Patchwork but Bitwig is more flexible. And with Blue Cat Connector which you recommended recently I finally can use Bitwig in Cubase as my daw of choice is Cubase.


----------



## Teksonik (Dec 29, 2022)

Urs has a habit of making snarky comments about other developer's products behind their backs and yet he's taken over a decade for Zebra 3. It's still nowhere in sight and there is a year old bug in Hive 2 that I'm told exists in Repro as well.

I used to have a lot of respect for Urs but to be honest his attitude of late it off putting. I guess people change over time but I much prefer the Urs of 2012 over the 2022 version.


----------



## waltercruz (Jan 5, 2023)

diswest said:


> From engineering management perspective one of most dangerous things is "only one person can do this". If you're a small company this may cost you the whole business.
> I always pushed my employees to keep bus factor at least at two. There are many ways to skin that cat.
> Anyway, my curiosity wasn't about how this is possible that only Urs can do that. It's more about why they've chosen this way.


But honestly, at least for the smaller companies, it's almost always just one person that have the domain of the DSP (Valhala, Cytomics, TAL, etc). And NI quality drop off when some people leaved the company - you can really tell that the DSP part is not for a lot of people.


----------



## Dirtgrain (Jan 5, 2023)

Teksonik said:


> Urs has a habit of making snarky comments about other developer's products behind their backs and yet he's taken over a decade for Zebra 3.


How is a post on a forum where other developers have a presence behind their backs? 



> I also disagree with marketing lingo like "every single component modelled blah blah" when clearly, even with "fixed" components that bear no part tolerance, the circuitry reliably behaves differently. It means, by simple deduction, certain parts were not modelled and the marketing lingo is simply deceiving. [Urs, quoted in OP]


Is he wrong about this?


----------



## Pier (Jan 5, 2023)

waltercruz said:


> But honestly, at least for the smaller companies, it's almost always just one person that have the domain of the DSP (Valhala, Cytomics, TAL, etc). And NI quality drop off when some people leaved the company - you can really tell that the DSP part is not for a lot of people.


Yeah exactly. DSP is already a super specialized field. Modeling of electrical components is a niche of a niche.

And to make a commercial DSP-based product (like a virtual synth) you need a lot more than just DSP knowledge. So very few audio dev companies get GUI programming right for example.


----------



## Teksonik (Jan 5, 2023)

Dirtgrain said:


> How is a post on a forum where other developers have a presence behind their backs?
> 
> 
> Is he wrong about this?


Because not all developers especially smaller one or two man operations have underlings to write code for them so they can spend all day on forums trashing other developer's work. 

Richard barely has time to frequent his own forum let alone KVR (Synapse does not have a company forum at KVR like u-he does). To be honest I don't want Richard and Marcin wasting time on forums, I'd rather they spend time writing code for another great synth.

Richard is one of the niceset guys I've ever encounted in this field and I've never seen him trash the work of other developers. I suppose if you have confidence in your own work you don't need to insult the work of others.

It's not the first time Urs has taken cheap shots at other developers. I guess if it's taking you over a decade and still counting just to go from Zebra 2 to 3 then you might feel the need to tear down the work of others to make yourself feel better.

Like I said I used to respect Urs a great deal but to be honest I think he's becoming an egotistical wanker.


----------



## telecode101 (Jan 5, 2023)

Teksonik said:


> Urs has a habit of making snarky comments about other developer's products behind their backs and yet he's taken over a decade for Zebra 3. It's still nowhere in sight and there is a year old bug in Hive 2 that I'm told exists in Repro as well.
> 
> I used to have a lot of respect for Urs but to be honest his attitude of late it off putting. I guess people change over time but I much prefer the Urs of 2012 over the 2022 version.


what is the bug in Hive?


----------



## Teksonik (Jan 6, 2023)

telecode101 said:


> what is the bug in Hive?


There is an issue with FL Studio's Fixed Size Buffer options. Turning them off causes hard crashes when browsing patches in Hive's browser and turning FSB on causes Arp/Seq patches to be out of sync. U-he support has been aware of the issue for a year and have been informed again recently. They said the issue also occurs in Repro but I don't own that one.

They said the workaround is to use an older version of Hive until they issue the fix....that they've known about for a year.

I'll simply keep the current version installed and switch FSB on/off depending on how I'm using Hive at the time. But that's going to be a PITA so I hope they can issue a fix sometime in the near future.


----------



## Russell Anderson (Jan 6, 2023)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Andy @ Cytomic. Go get The Scream and be amazed. He's also applying that tech to his other products, supposedly. I've read he dreams of making a synth, but... the wait on that is probably at least as long as the wait for Zebra 3 has been.


Those built-in FX would be the envy of many insert slots lol


----------



## Dirtgrain (Jan 6, 2023)

Imageline has been aware for years that FL Studio code is at odds with standards that many third-party plugins follow. They won't fix it either.

People have complained for years that The Scream is for so long a beta version.

And so it goes.


----------



## Teksonik (Jan 6, 2023)

Dirtgrain said:


> Imageline has been aware for years that FL Studio code is at odds with standards that many third-party plugins follow. They won't fix it either.


To Image-line there is nothing to "fix". That's the way they think it should work.

At any rate I have over 700 plugins, most of which are FX but with the dozens of synths that I own only Hive crashes during preset browse or goes out of sync with Arp/Seq patches. I use those kinds of patches that I've created all the time in every other synth that has an Arp/Seq without any issue.

Rob and Jon have even gone as far as to add an FL switch to Predator 3. You'd think with u-he being considered the gods of plugins they could do the same or at least come up with some solution in a year. 

Ever since the first DAW and the first plugin met, whenever there is an issue the plugin developer blames the DAW developer and the DAW developer blames the plugin developer. I don't imagine that will ever change.


----------



## Dirtgrain (Jan 6, 2023)

Imageline decided to stop supporting the plugin they sold me. And so it goes.

Meanwhile, was URS take wrong? Are those claiming to have modeled every component telling the truth?


----------



## Teksonik (Saturday at 8:24 AM)

Dirtgrain said:


> Meanwhile, was URS take wrong? Are those claiming to have modeled every component telling the truth?


I believe the following is wrong and quite frankly an unnecessary shot at his competitors:

"You have no idea how disappointed I am by all those latest Minis from the most reputable developers. They're like made by people who never touched a Mini, or who thought "let's get rid of all the quirks that make a Mini a Mini and push this dead sounding piece of code onto our followers".

Whether or not developers "modeled every component" are telling the truth or not only they can say. All we can do is judge the sound quality of the final product.

If he's talking about Cherry Audio, they released more plugins last year than u-he has in its history.

Some people love the CA plugins and some hate them and some will always complain about any emulation from any developer "they don't sound anything like the original" even though they've never owned, played, or even been in the same room as the original.


----------



## Dirtgrain (Saturday at 10:09 AM)

Teksonik said:


> If he's talking about Cherry Audio, they released more plugins last year than u-he has in its history.
> 
> Some people love the CA plugins and some hate them and some will always complain about any emulation from any developer "they don't sound anything like the original" even though they've never owned, played, or even been in the same room as the original.


From the OP:



> Look, I'm trying hard to not mention any names directly. But honestly, I don't even know CA made one. So no, I did not mean that one, I meant everyone that came after The Legend.


----------



## Dirtgrain (Saturday at 10:11 AM)

Teksonik said:


> I believe the following is wrong and quite frankly an unnecessary shot at his competitors:
> 
> "You have no idea how disappointed I am by all those latest Minis from the most reputable developers. They're like made by people who never touched a Mini, or who thought "let's get rid of all the quirks that make a Mini a Mini and push this dead sounding piece of code onto our followers".


From the OP:



> Let me also say that I think some of these Minis sound gorgeous, possibly better than anything I would have come up with. I just disagree with their development team (or marketing) on what's part of the Mini's character, and where to simplify/"fix" the model.


----------



## homie (Saturday at 10:26 AM)

It just sounds like his honest opinion and facts. I'm pretty sure he's not bullying others or something. He's just a human like everybody else and enjoys talking about that stuff (plus some procrastinating). Still one of the best/most fair companies around.


----------



## Teksonik (Saturday at 12:33 PM)

Dirtgrain said:


> From the OP:


Yes I read that but it doesn't change my opinion at all.

I've never seen another developer comment on u-he's "development team (or marketing)".

If I was taking over a decade to release a version update to a plugin I'm not sure I would be commenting on the "development team" of other companies. 

Urs has taken shots at other developers in the past so this isn't the only instance and my opinion was formed long before that post.

Look I get it, Urs is worshiped and I think that's what has been feeding his ego.

Like I said before I used to have a lot of respect for Urs but I simply don't care for his current attitude.


----------



## homie (Saturday at 3:19 PM)

Teksonik said:


> Look I get it, Urs is worshiped and I think that's what has been feeding his ego.


Worshiped? How about respected? One can't deny that he is one of the best in his field. I can't remember him saying his plugins are above everything else. I don't really see justification for any drama. Also remember nuances get lost in translation easly.

I mean we all, or at least many of us, know there is room for improvement regarding sound, including Urs. In any case i'm looking forward to new original designs and more vintage emulations by him and others.


----------



## Teksonik (Sunday at 6:13 AM)

homie said:


> Worshiped? How about respected? One can't deny that he is one of the best in his field. I can't remember him saying his plugins are above everything else. I don't really see justification for any drama. Also remember nuances get lost in translation easly.
> 
> I mean we all, or at least many of us, know there is room for improvement regarding sound, including Urs. In any case i'm looking forward to new original designs and more vintage emulations by him and others.


Yes worshiped. Once again for the third time....I used to respect Urs but I simply don't like his current attitude. A lot of this story has taken place away from this particular forum so if you don't know the whole story you won't be able to formulate a cogent opinion.

Let's be honest, u-he hasn't released anything innovative since Hive and that's stretching it quite a bit. DIVA and Repro are simply regurgitating old stale sounding dinosaur synths and quite frankly I find both highly overrated. Ace and Bazille fall into the same category in my opinion.

It sounds like Zebra 3 will have some "innovations" but after more than a decade it should be a whole new synth.

In the end there are developers who innovate and then there are developers who imitate.

I like Hive 2 and use it in every project and also like Zebra 2/HZ but don't use it as much. If Zebra 3 is worth the update price then I'll probably buy it despite my personal feeling about Urs' attitude. If he releases _yet another_ stale old analog emulation then I'll pass.

I simply don't appreciate Urs' attitude of late. He's coming off as arrogant and pompous. Again this is based on interactions with him away from this forum.

If that triggers you then the "drama" is coming from your side.......


----------



## Wes Antczak (Sunday at 7:17 AM)

Sounds like Urs has gone the way of Uli, lol. Or... perhaps "drama" is becoming the new form of marketing. Personally, all my purchases are informed by what I need, what I like and what I can afford. The rest as they say, is just... "drama"


----------



## homie (Sunday at 8:01 AM)

I was just reading a KVR thread about the excellent Parawave Rapid synth when i saw a post by a user called Teksonik judging the Rapid dev regarding his attitude. Some people shouldn't take themselves too seriously i'd say.


----------



## homie (Sunday at 8:20 AM)

Wes Antczak said:


> Sounds like Urs has gone the way of Uli, lol. Or... perhaps "drama" is becoming the new form of marketing.


I don't think that's the case. There is just the same group of people in forums like say KVR and Gearspace that act like they own the place and know better than people who actually achieved something. Kind of sad. I don't really want to participate in those forums because of this. Enough of this. I'm probably also an idiot for posting my own insignifcant opinion about this.


----------



## Teksonik (Monday at 10:48 AM)

homie said:


> I was just reading a KVR thread about the excellent Parawave Rapid synth when i saw a post by a user called Teksonik judging the Rapid dev regarding his attitude. Some people shouldn't take themselves too seriously i'd say.


No you shouldn't take yourself seriously at all. 

Did you read the response I got from Parawave after I simply tried to help them when their reputation was getting smashed on forums?

Yea I base my attitude towards developers on the attitude I receive from them. You'd be surprised at how many developers I've had behind the scenes contact with that aren't a-holes.

There are a lot of developers I respect a great deal and again that's based on my interactions with them. A few developers annoy me and a few I refuse to do business with so you'll just have to deal with that fact.

What do you base your opinion of developers on? Or do you just genuflect to all of them like a fawning sycophant? 

So yes if people having opinions that you don't agree with is so traumatizing to you then any forum on the internet on any subject is simply not for you.

At any rate those are my honest opinions and if they trigger you so easily then I suggest you block me.


----------



## fakemaxwell (Monday at 11:18 AM)

Teksonik said:


> if they trigger you


Be sure to continue to ask after every post if it's too triggering, really drives home how edgy you are!


----------



## Teksonik (Monday at 11:40 AM)

fakemaxwell said:


> Be sure to continue to ask after every post if it's too triggering, really drives home how edgy you are!


Be sure to get triggered by everything I post. Really drives home how......well I'll just leave it at that. 

So consider this....you and others think it's fine to take shots at me and it is fine since I know you wouldn't be taking those shots if we were in person but then you get triggered if I say something negative about a developer.

Do you not see the hypocrisy? 

The bottom line is if only positive comments about developers are allowed then this isn't a forum. 

If you don't like what I post then simply ignore me. Every time you quote me it only starts the whole cycle over again.


----------



## cedricm (Monday at 11:45 AM)

Teksonik said:


> Be sure to get triggered by everything I post. Really drives home how......well I'll just leave it at that.
> 
> So consider this....you and others think it's fine to take shots at me and it is fine since I know you wouldn't be taking those shots if we were in person but then you get triggered if I say something negative about a developer.
> 
> ...


It's fine to criticize, there are many negative comments in this forum too.
I think you made your opinion clear enough in 9 posts.


----------



## fakemaxwell (Monday at 11:48 AM)

Teksonik said:


> since I know you wouldn't be taking those shots if we were in person


Now this is truly an internet argument, what with you claiming that "irl I'm actually a tough guy"


----------



## Teksonik (Monday at 12:04 PM)

Since Parawave was brought up, I kept seeing people post "it's abandonware, the developer is out of business" etc and there might have been such comments on this forum.

I saw things like this at one forum:






So I contacted Parawave and asked if there was anything I could pass along to ease the fears of some customers (or potential customers). I was attempting to help the company address the concerns made by some.

This is the response I got, a meme nothing else:






A followup interaction was even snarkier from them. So if you think that's a proper response from a business (which we financially support) then there's not much more I can say. That response was aimed at every one of Parawave's customers who were concerned about the lack of interactions from them (during that time period).

Anyway since then they have released a road map for the future and have been a little more interactive with their user base (customers). Did my interactions have anything to do with chasing them out of the shadows? I have no idea but everyone simply sitting back and doing nothing had no effect at all. Sometimes you have to rattle a few cages......


----------



## Teksonik (Monday at 12:08 PM)

cedricm said:


> It's fine to criticize, there are many negative comments in this forum too.
> I think you made your opinion clear enough in 9 posts.


And 8 of those posts were in response to people getting triggered and quoting me.


----------



## Teksonik (Monday at 12:10 PM)

fakemaxwell said:


> Now this is truly an internet argument, what with you claiming that "irl I'm actually a tough guy"


I don't need to be a tough guy. I simply know you wouldn't make those comments if we were face to face. You might even learn to like me.


----------



## babylonwaves (Monday at 12:19 PM)

It's getting a bit boring. Somebody serve a new drama, please?


----------



## EvilDragon (Monday at 12:23 PM)

Not sure why you think work on Z3 started 10 years ago, it didn't. That long long Z3 thread on KvR was just quenching any speculation back in the day, but the actual work on Z3 absolutely didn't start in that time. So saying it took them 10 years for Z3 is not really cool, or accurate.

And as far as I can tell Urs and Richard are on good terms and have even discussed various emulation aspects etc...


----------



## diswest (Monday at 12:42 PM)

EvilDragon said:


> Not sure why you think work on Z3 started 10 years ago


Because Urs have literally said it, whatever it means 

Wrong point here is to think U-he spent all these 10 years on Zebra. A half of Urs' posts are about why Zebra 3 is delayed again. And they have released many great plugins and updates in these 10 years.

That's not good and not bad. Just clarification for those who don't read kvr.

Honestly, I'd love to see more developers who refresh their old plugins like U-he do.
Recently I bought MFM and realized it's awesome delay which I almost missed because of age. How many great plugins were lost abandoned by devs.


----------



## homie (Tuesday at 9:36 AM)

The Parawave matter started as speculation and arrived at attitude issues at one point. All while Rapid was working just fine. Did the person who started it tried to contact them first? It was kind of unnecessary and helped no one IMO. I suppose they are a small company (maybe just one single developer) without much time/resources to spend on internet forums.

I'm not trying to say legitimate reasons to be disgruntled don't exist, but no need to invent them.


----------



## Sid Francis (Tuesday at 12:03 PM)

At least it was a nice suggestion by TeksoniK to ignore...Teksonik. Perhaps some more nice reading in my favorite music forum instead of these wonderful , lets call it "discussions"


----------



## DoubleTap (Tuesday at 12:14 PM)

Thing is that I think we can probably all relate to Urs’s problem, which is a combination of busy-ness getting in the way and a slight reluctance to go over old ground. And the paralysis of choice as well which we all face - I mean, do we call it Half Zeb 3, or Duke Zebra Forever? (Hoping he’ll announce Z4 soon so I can justify a Duke Nukem 4Zebra riff).


----------

