# Divisi Cellos



## Christian Marcussen (Nov 26, 2006)

Any good examples from classical or filmmusic? 

Any thoughts on when to write divisi for cellos? Its not something I have seen that often. 

Thanks


----------



## Leandro Gardini (Nov 26, 2006)

It´s very comon...you can find divisis in classical music for almost any piece later than classical period...to name a few - Daphins and Chloe (Ravel), Lar Mer (Debussy), Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus (Vaughan Williams), The Isle of the Dead (Rachmaninoff) any Symphony of Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev...etc, it´s endless!!!
If you get any Williams score you are not going to last to long without see a divisi for cellos!!!


----------



## Aaron Sapp (Nov 26, 2006)

Anytime a cello (or any particular string section) splits into two or more parts, it's divisi. And this is seen pretty much everywhere.


----------



## Christian Marcussen (Nov 26, 2006)

Aaron Sapp @ Sun Nov 26 said:


> Anytime a cello (or any particular string section) splits into two or more parts, it's divisi. And this is seen pretty much everywhere.



hehe, yeah I know what it is - I just haven't seen it in any of the score extracts I have in the literature I own. Granted I have no Williams scores


----------



## FrozeN (Nov 28, 2006)

Well these aren't really divisi celli but if you need some "extreme" examples....

Strauss - Also Sprach Zarathustra (8 solo celli)
Rossini - William Tell Oveture (5 solo celli)
Tchaikovsky - 1812 Overture (2 solo violas and 4 solo celli.... I think) :razz: 

Mahler's symphonies have a lot of divisi celli examples too.

And I am not gonna mention the Villa-Lobos piece! :lol: 

Cheers,
Frankie


----------



## Peter Alexander (Nov 28, 2006)

If you want to hear a stand-alone celli section divided, listen to the first movement of La Mer where the celli are div a 4. 

Listen to Overture to Parsifal by Wagner.

The purpose of dividing the strings is to expand the vertical harmony potential and to create various colors, like smaller string ensembles within the larger string ensemble. 

Writing divisi isn't just dividing the strings. You need to understand seating arrangements and which instruments get the parts, along with orchestral balance and when to double and not double instruments from other sections with the divided strings.


----------



## Christian Marcussen (Nov 28, 2006)

Thanks Peter - will check those out.


----------



## RiffWraith (Feb 8, 2007)

Howdy.

The very first Fellowship Of The Ring cue (the one not on the soundtrack, but in the film and on the complete recordings) contains div. celli - tho you would never know it by listening to it, so therefore it may not count for this thread...LOL


----------



## bryla (Feb 8, 2007)

also any of igor stravinskij


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 8, 2007)

A quote from the Alfred Blatter "Instrumentation & Orchestration":

"The cello doubles other instruments well, and in larger ensembles the cello section is regularly divided to provide two or more independent lines to the texture."


----------



## bryla (Feb 8, 2007)

so doubling to different instruments?


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 8, 2007)

cellos with basses, cellos with violas, cellos with violins, cellos with bassoons...etc


----------



## bryla (Feb 8, 2007)

ahh. great! thx Patrick


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 8, 2007)

Anytime my friend... :smile:


----------



## Rob Elliott (Feb 8, 2007)

Patrick de Caumette @ Thu Feb 08 said:


> cellos with basses, cellos with violas, cellos with violins, cellos with bassoons...etc




Just did a cue having the Cellos double the Bass Clarinet - my new 'favorite' double  

gave me 'evil' without going over the top.


Rob


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks Rob,
I'll make sure to add that one to my Evil devices arsenal :twisted:


----------



## Rob Elliott (Feb 8, 2007)

Patrick de Caumette @ Thu Feb 08 said:


> Thanks Rob,
> I'll make sure to add that one to my Evil devices arsenal :twisted:




No problem, Patrick. Seems like I always grab for the Cello/ContraBassoon - and of course that works perfect BUT the KLB and VC seems so 'sneaky' and 'up to no good' kinda sound without being melodramatic. Don't know a better way to describe it. :wink: 


Rob


----------



## James W.G. Smith (Feb 26, 2007)

hehe, the MIDI I just uploaded for you has divisi cellos, almost through the whole thing. And all of my other William's scores have them as well. leogardini is totally right on that one.


----------



## Scott Cairns (Feb 26, 2007)

Man, Williams has divisi Tuba's, Contrabasses and Bassoons of the scores Ive seen. :shock:


----------



## Rob Elliott (Feb 26, 2007)

Scott Cairns @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> Man, Williams has divisi Tuba's, Contrabasses and Bassoons of the scores Ive seen. :shock:



Hi Scott,


Yea baby!!! Divisi Tubas (Cimbassos) = Orchestral POWER chords =o


----------



## bryla (Feb 26, 2007)

are you guys concerned about playing a cello section divisi?

ehm let me explain:
if a sample library contains a cello section, this section is recorded with X cellists, and playing 2 notes with library causes this number to double?

I guess the way to get around this is by creating X amount of single cello sample tracks and recording what they each play, but that seems unnecessary.

Would you just play the two notes and then maybe just lower the volume?


----------



## James W.G. Smith (Feb 26, 2007)

bryla @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> are you guys concerned about playing a cello section divisi?
> 
> ehm let me explain:
> if a sample library contains a cello section, this section is recorded with X cellists, and playing 2 notes with library causes this number to double?
> ...



Not at all. Actually, if you listened to the example I put up in other thread ( http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... 8&start=35 ), that clip is divided by the following:

1st Violins - Up to 2
2nd Violins - Usually 2
Violas - Usually 2, up to 3
Cellos - Usually 2, up to 3

The problem that many people have when going for divisi is that if you are using bland samples then they have no room to define themselves, and that makes them drone. Also, because so many libraries record all the stringed instruments at the same distance (I don't know why but they do) the instruments have no room, and you get this massive pad effect. So mainly, it's all about the sounds that you use, and how you mix them. If done right (my example is not perfect but you get the idea), no one will really notice.

Be REALLY careful about using smaller ensembles in hopes of creating divisi with them though, because if they where recorded even slightly differently (which most are) than there larger counterparts, it is going to stick out really badly.

James


----------



## david robinson (Feb 27, 2007)

seems to me you guys are trying to do something (divisi) which, atm, is fairly alien to the sample library concept.
why VSL or someone (other than Gary Garritan) doesn't just give us a lib full of single instruments weirds me out.
i love: the slight out-of-tuneness, slight out-of-timeness of real players.
i also believe recordings with arbitraryò·Þ   RøL·Þ   RøM·Þ   RøN·Þ   RøO·Þ   RøP·Þ   RøQ·Þ   RøR·Þ   RøS·Þ   RøT·Þ   RøU·Þ   RøV·Þ   RøW·Þ   RøX·Þ   RøY·Þ   RøZ·Þ   Rø[·Þ   Rø\·Þ   Rø]·Þ   Rø^·Þ   Rø_·Þ   Rø`·Þ   Røa·Þ   Røb·Þ   Røc·Þ   Rød·Þ   Røe·Þ   Røf·Þ   Røg·Þ   Røh·Þ   Røi·Þ   Røj·Þ   Røk·Þ   Røl·Þ   Røm·Þ   Røn·Þ   Røo·Þ   Røp·Þ   Røq·Þ   Rør·Þ


----------



## david robinson (Feb 27, 2007)

all the things you've said , James, are the equal opposite to what i said.

all i know is real orchestras and sample orchestras are two different things.

how far would you get asking a real orchestra to imitate a sample library?

if a lib manufacturer actually took the time to record every chair in the string section separately so we could combine them later at our will, would this be more interesting?

certainly more flexible.

the amount of really really good orchestras out there are but a handfull as opposed to mediocre ones. 
i'd also hazard a guess as say most of the really good players are doing soundtracks because that's where the real money is. art has very little to do with it.

anyway, now i go back to the real world, where even the best of players have bad days: the oboist's reed cracks and the concert master breaks his "E" string.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 27, 2007)

I think that point that James and Eric Persing (elsewhere on this forum) have made is that you can't reproduce the sound of 12 instruments playing a note or passage in one room with 1 x 12 recordings of single players. I believe that it has to do with acoustics and what happens when all the reflections bouncing off real walls, floor, celiing, and hey, people (they absorb frequencies too!) combine. It also may have to do with what happens when 12 players are listeing to each other, making minute but important adjustements to their playing as you're recording. Even just an octave slide can sound very different if it's a bunch of players doing it together vs 12 individual siides that you combine.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 27, 2007)

david robinson @ 27/2/2007 said:


> i personally, would like to see using sample libs become a legit art form in and of it's self.
> in fact, making instruments do the unexpected is my main source of inspiration.



I think you have a fantastic attitude! =o Let's break the mould!


----------



## careyford (Feb 27, 2007)

david robinson said:


> i personally, would like to see using sample libs become a legit art form in and of it's self.



It kind of already is. The difference is those who try to emulate an orchestra and those who twist the sounds into something else. It's the same exact thing with keyboards, you have unique synths (ones that are made to sound like something new) and ones used to emulate (a particular musical instrument).

James[/quote]

James' point is a very good one. Even when writing for humans, it's about using strengths and weaknesses to express yourself musically. I really enjoy knowing the specific players or singers because I can try to find things special to their talents. The hardest thing for me about samples is also the hardest about humans, how do you get the intangible or magical into the music. The composers that can do this with samples or synths impress me. ~o)


----------



## david robinson (Feb 27, 2007)

careyford, if you get great players on a good day, nothing is better.
of course if you know them well, and write for their strengths, magic can happen.

i just think that users expect too much from dumb samples and complain to the makers "i want it to do this, why can't it do that, it'd be better if it could..............". then the makers scramble to improve the product and keep their customers.

with samples, even if you have all the libs out there, you must adjust your content to suit the strengths.
compromise - life's full of it.

i do any number of mock up's of classical works, purely for education and enjoyment, and am pretty amazed at how convincing some can be. certainly better than a mediocre real symphony giving the work a "good read".

also, bare in mind that the people most likely to criticize an original work because of a technical flaw (other composers) are the least likely types to buy the cd of said work anyway.
the average punter out there does not care, how the recording was done, just that it get's them off for the money invested.

with samples, the sky's not even the limit, so break the rules, go on guys!! so what if it's not musically "correct". most advancements made in this world have been by free thinkers willing to take a chance, that "one step beyond" the norm.


----------



## david robinson (Feb 27, 2007)

Ned, hi, thanks.
my attitude is born of many many years in the music industry.

do you ever hear anybody say, "let's make a record and let's make it mediocre"? no.
they say," ........ and let's make it fantastic!!!"
otherwise, what is the point?

i long ago gave up doing music on a commercial basis(ie:to put food on the table). it's the easiest way to compromise one's art, and the fast track to hackery.

true art hurts, the only pay off for me is seeing people enjoying what i make as a "note juggler".


----------



## careyford (Feb 27, 2007)

david robinson @ Tue Feb 27 said:


> careyford, if you get great
> with samples, even if you have all the libs out there, you must adjust your content to suit the strengths. compromise - life's full of it.
> 
> with samples, the sky's not even the limit, so break the rules, go on guys!! so what if it's not musically "correct". most advancements made in this world have been by free thinkers willing to take a chance, that "one step beyond" the norm.



David, I agree with you. Limits are essential, and I do think samples help us push the limit of what's possible with music, generally. Adjusting content to the medium is no different with samples than when writing for a soprano instead of a tenor. As you know, you can't just transpose the line down. 

I'm new to samples and sequencing, but I recognize the value both as a tool for composing better music and for it as a worhtwhile (and often very musical) final product. 

_I_ just need to get better at it! :D


----------

