# [Solved] Where to put the Keyboard?



## holzlag0r

Hello,
where do you put your masterkeyboard?

I have seen a lots of setups where the masterkeyboard is under the desk, but this is not possible for me, since my desk is rather low and if I would put a 10cm keyboard there, my knees wouldnt fit there anymore.

Another option I have seen is to put it on top of the desk, in front or behind the (computer) keyboard. I tried to do something like that too, but when I do that, my (computer) keyboard is like 1/2 past the edge of the desk and I can't move my mouse more than a few centimetres, or I can't reach my (computer) keyboard comfortably because the masterkeyboard would be too high.

The only thing I can see working for me is putting and X or Z keyboard stand next to me - or a keyboard table. But then I dont have my computer in front of me while recoding and I have to turn around all the time.

Maybe somebody has a solution for me?
Thank you.


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## Hannes_F

Some options / ideas:

1. Mouse and computer keyboard on top of the piano keyboard.
2. Have a little side desk for the mouse.
3. Attach a trackball to your armrest.
4. Use the mouse on your upper leg (I do that often).


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## muk

Another idea: buy an x-stand, attach furniture casters. This way you can lower the stand and roll the piano under the desk when you don't need it.

Some more ideas are discussed here:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthre ... al_Pi.html


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## proxima

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*

The bottom line is that both the computer keyboard and MIDI keyboard should be in roughly the same place for ergonomic purposes. Which gets the best position depends on your preferences and how much you use each.

My solution, such that it is, is a bit of redundancy. For comfortable keyboard/mouse use, I have a keyboard tray at a nice low level in front of my iMac's main screen. On the desk above the tray I have a small MIDI keyboard (an Axiom 25, to be replaced eventually). At a right angle, I have my 88-key controller (a Kawai MP11), which can fit a keyboard, trackpad, and mouse on the top of it. Just behind the MP11 is another monitor. Depending on whether I'm doing more mouse/computer keyboard work or more MIDI keyboard work, I choose one setup or the other. Switching is just a matter right clicking on Logic and going to Option -> Desktop on Display X.

Computer monitors, keyboards, mice, etc. are cheap. If you've got the space, it's a nice setup with fewer tradeoffs. One tradeoff is that you have to either have two sets of monitors or prefer to listen in one configuration or the other. I looked through probably hundreds of studio setups (there were a few huge gearslutz threads) and it was clear that there was no perfect solution for this.


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## rpaillot

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*

This is what I did recently : 



I attached my midi keyboard to my desk with angle brackets, then my Dad made me a plexiglass plate that "link" the desk and the master keyboard, and allows me to put the computer keyboard and mouse roughly at the same level as the Master keyboard.

Here's some pictures 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ec7cqvnnv7x9y ... .50.08.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gld9756h4ndj0 ... .50.34.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gl3cni17y9zic ... .49.56.jpg


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## wst3

Proxima opined:
"The bottom line is that both the computer keyboard and MIDI keyboard should be in roughly the same place for ergonomic purposes."

And therein lies the rub. It fascinates me that no one has built a MIDI keyboard with a built in computer keyboard... but if they did my guess is it would still be wrong for more folks than it is right<G>!

I've done the mouse or trackball on my leg bit, it is not optimal.

Right now I have my computer keyboard sitting on top of my master keyboard, and a mouse pad (or trackball) sitting on the upper octave of the keys. Still sub-optimal, but less strain on my arm.

I am still playing around with different arrangements, and I'll built a permanent solution when I find the least annoying solution<G>!

FWIW, I still use two MIDI controllers - a Roland/Rhodes MK-80 88 key, weighted action because I like it's weighted action, and either an Ensoniq EPS (classic) or an Oberheim xK for an unweighted action. I'd love to ditch the later, but there are some things that are just easier to play on an unweighted action. 

AND, I dislike the Roland mod joystick, and I'm not a big fan of the Oberheim mod paddle - both have spring returns. I much prefer the Ensoniq wheel. That too is solvable.


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## chillbot

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*



rpaillot @ Sun Jun 08 said:


> This is what I did recently :


The wine glass really ties it all together.


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## AC986

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*



holzlag0r @ Sun Jun 08 said:


> Hello,
> where do you put your masterkeyboard?
> 
> I have seen a lots of setups where the masterkeyboard is under the desk, but this is not possible for me, since my desk is rather low and if I would put a 10cm keyboard there, my knees wouldnt fit there anymore.
> 
> Another option I have seen is to put it on top of the desk, in front or behind the (computer) keyboard. I tried to do something like that too, but when I do that, my (computer) keyboard is like 1/2 past the edge of the desk and I can't move my mouse more than a few centimetres, or I can't reach my (computer) keyboard comfortably because the masterkeyboard would be too high.
> 
> The only thing I can see working for me is putting and X or Z keyboard stand next to me - or a keyboard table. But then I dont have my computer in front of me while recoding and I have to turn around all the time.
> 
> Maybe somebody has a solution for me?
> Thank you.



I'm in the same camp as you. It's really a pain atm. 

I have an 88 note keyboard on a very solid stand (that doesn't move around at all) to my left as I look at the monitor screen. I don't like these big ready made desks you see that are supposed to be some sort of workstation. They seem and look cumbersome.

I am waiting to change my computer to an iMac hopefully one day and when I do, I will change my desk that the monitor, MCU PRO, mouse and computer keyboard are on and get one where I can slot the keyboard and it's stand in underneath. 

I think having everything in front of you instead of twisting around all the time is a much better way of going forward.


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## Hannes_F

wst3 @ Sun Jun 08 said:


> I've done the mouse or trackball on my leg bit, it is not optimal.



I found out that mousing on the leg works much better with trousers on, haha. And actually right now I am typing with the (asdl) keyboard in my lap.

Actually I used to have a huge desk plate but found that unfortunate acoustically, so I reduced it all to a very stable (piano) keyboard stand and a small side desk for telephone, graphical tablet and light. Minimal. Mouse and (asdl) keyboard are sitting on top of the (piano) keyboard but I handle them freely according to the situation because I very much dislike working bent forward.

EDIT Actually I have a number of keyboard and mouse sets distributed across the room and do input from several places, that turned out to be practical for me.


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## chillbot

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*

If you are into building custom furniture I have a solution that works well, which is to place the music keyboard just behind the computer keyboard but sink it down into the desk so they are almost flush with each other. You wouldn't have to do this with all keyboards but mine is a massive Motif XF8 which really doesn't give another option (you really can't place anything on top of it). I sunk it down into the desk a good 3 inches so that between computer and music keyboards my hands barely have to move.

It would be similar to putting your music keyboard at the front of the desk, then getting a pullout computer keyboard tray that not only pulls out but then rises up to make it flush. They make these, but I find they don't rise up enough and are not that stable.

In my last studio I made a really really cheap desk with this design. Just a bunch of wood and nails and painted the whole thing black, it was ugly but super functional. In my current studio I had a pro do the build, but same design. It really works well for someone who has battled carpal tunnel and back pain for years (been getting better since I switched to this design).

EDIT: Here is a very crude drawing of such a desk. It's 5 pieces: 2 racks on each side, a higher front shelf for keyboard/mouse, a lower back shelf for music keyboard, and a top piece (attach monitor arms to back of top piece to bring monitors out and sitting over music keyboard).

EDIT again: oops made the dumb graphic much smaller.


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## rpaillot

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*



chillbot @ Sun Jun 08 said:


> rpaillot @ Sun Jun 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I did recently :
> 
> 
> 
> The wine glass really ties it all together.
Click to expand...


I'm French, I can't resist


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## rgames

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*

It depends on how you work. If you're a "play it in" composer then you probably spend a lot of time using the MIDI keyboard. If not then you spend the vast majority of your time *not* using the MIDI keyboard.

If you're the latter then it makes sense to move the MIDI keyboard to the side and keep it out of the way. I use that setup and have a second monitor above the MIDI keyboard that duplicates the project monitor so I can control record/playback, select tracks, adjust VI's, etc. My MIDI keyboard is an S90ES and the computer keyboard fits nicely over the keyboard controls (which I don't use). To the left is a Novation Zero controller and to the right is the mouse. Computer keyboard and mouse are wireless so I just pick them up and move them over when I need to access the MIDI keyboard.

That setup works for me because I spend only about 5% of my time actually playing the MIDI keyboard. If I had it in front of me, it would be cumbersome to use the computer keyboard and mouse: if the MIDI keyboard is in the right spot, everything else is hard to get to. If the computer keyboard is in the right spot, then the MIDI keyboard keeps knocking my knees and thighs.

rgames


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## Giant_Shadow

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*

Nice to have Ikea a hour away 8)


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## holzlag0r

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*

Alright, thanks everyone so far.
Im really happy with the forum!

So... Here is my desk + a very old keyboard:

Image

Sorry for the terrible quality. Camera is broken.

It is about the same size as the Impulse 61, which is: 102cm*33cm*10cm

The desk is about 72cm high. So the keys are at about 78cm. 
Thats personally a bit too high in my opinion. 
Also, writing on the keyboard is somewhat uncomfortably... 
I would not rename my tracks anymore I guess.
For writing longer texts and so on I would probably just disconnect the keyboard.
____________________________________________________

I dont really want to use a drawer for the keyboard and mouse. 
A friend of mine has it like that - it's nothing for me with almost 
no space for the mouse and unstable keyboard. But yes, it would work...
Same goes for the solution with the mouse on the upper legs.

For any solution with the midi keyboard beneath the table: It does not fit.
The distance between the two sides of the desk (don't know how they are called) 
is too small. Only about 2cm more and it would fit.

The plexiglass would not work for me, since my keyboard has a depth of 33cm with knobs and faders.

Thanks chillbot for the amazing drawing, but I dont have the money or the skills to get a selfmade desk. :cry: 
____________________________________________________

I guess the problem is that I want to have my computer keyboard and my midi keyboard directly in front of me, at the same place. Which is of course not possible.

Hmm, I dont know what to do...
I would really like to have a setup like Giant_Shadow's, but I can't because my computer is not only for composing purposes.

I guess I'll have to put my keyboard on a X or Z stand, or maybe a keyboard table.
But maybe I you can still find a solution that's working for me... :wink:


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## Ozymandias

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*

Here's my approach...

https://i.imgur.com/oDx72Ex.gif

I couldn't live with a static layout and didn't want a drawer under the desk, so in the end I mounted a lightweight MIDI keyboard on a couple of slides.


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## proxima

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*



holzlag0r @ Sun Jun 08 said:


> I dont really want to use a drawer for the keyboard and mouse.
> A friend of mine has it like that - it's nothing for me with almost
> no space for the mouse and unstable keyboard. But yes, it would work...
> Same goes for the solution with the mouse on the upper legs.


You can add a large keyboard/mouse tray and have the tray be quite stable by buying the right model. In the past, I've had something like this: 

http://www.amazon.com/Valencia-Series-Underdesk-Keyboard-Mahogany/dp/B001HA4DAK/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1402246037&sr=8-16&keywords=keyboard+tray (http://www.amazon.com/Valencia-Series-U ... board+tray)

There are also metal versions:

http://www.amazon.com/4028P-Underdesk-Oversized-Keyboard-Platform/dp/B001MS6T1I/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&qid=1402246172&sr=8-19&keywords=keyboard+tray (http://www.amazon.com/4028P-Underdesk-O ... board+tray)

but basically, something wide enough for both keyboard and mouse on the same drawer and supported by both sides.


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## kitekrazy

If someone would only make a universal attachment for a QWERTY keyboard to attach to a controller.


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## holzlag0r

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*



Ozymandias @ Sun Jun 08 said:


> Here's my approach...
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/oDx72Ex.gif
> 
> I couldn't live with a static layout and didn't want a drawer under the desk, so in the end I mounted a lightweight MIDI keyboard on a couple of slides.


Can you please send me a version of the gif where I can see more? I'm really interested in how that looks!


@proxima: Hmm, thank you, maybe I could try it out. But for now I'm searching for other solutions, maybe I'll come back to it later!


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## Mahlon

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*

Ahhh yes, this is one of the great ergonomic dilemmas of keyboard+keyboard. I'm still trying to figure it out and am building a new desk soon. Right now, this is how I have mine set up.

It works ok, but the piano keyboard is too high and too far away to be comfortable. Honestly, I don't know that there is a perfect answer to this. You'll probably have to accept that both ways are going to have a major fault.

The idea of dropping the piano keyboard down a few inches to make it level with the computer keyboard is a good one. But I think you still have to reach too far to access the piano keys.

Good luck; let us know if you find a working solution.

Mahlon


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## Ozymandias

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*



holzlag0r @ Sun Jun 08 said:


> Ozymandias @ Sun Jun 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's my approach...
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/oDx72Ex.gif
> 
> I couldn't live with a static layout and didn't want a drawer under the desk, so in the end I mounted a lightweight MIDI keyboard on a couple of slides.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you please send me a version of the gif where I can see more? I'm really interested in how that looks!
Click to expand...


Here's a photo of one of the slides:

http://i.imgur.com/1QeDuQH.jpg

The keyboard is bolted onto a flat steel bar which connects the two slides.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Some self-promotion:

http://www.virtualinstrumentsmag.com/co ... esk_Ad.pdf


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## artsoundz

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*

Nick- ot - trying to reach you. Sent pm.


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## RiffWraith

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*

I have the same idea as rpaillot - piece of wood (shelf, actually) that is secured to the desk, and sits on top of the MIDI kbd, and that holds the computer kbd and mouse. I cant be bothered with slides, nor the kbds being too far from one another. The way I have it, I have to move my fingers about 5-6" to get from one to another. Not for everyone, of course, but it works well for me.

Cheers.


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## holzlag0r

*Re: Where to put the Keyboard?*

Okay, thank you for your ideas!
I think I found now the solution I'll go with...

It is quite similar to @rpaillot's setup.
He added plexiglass in front of his desk to position his computer keyboard and mouse on top of it.
Instead of adding plexiglass in front of the desk, i'll "expand" it from behind, by adding something to support the displays. That way I won't have to deal with an unstable setup for mouse and keyboard.

Thanks to everyone!


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## groove

After thinking this problem around with some composer friends, one approach that works is to integrate a Doepfer Keyboard in a custom desk, I've done it with this french designer, see picture :
http://modson.fr/details-station-de-travail-eclipse.php


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## kitekrazy

groove @ Tue Jun 10 said:


> After thinking this problem around with some composer friends, one approach that works is to integrate a Doepfer Keyboard in a custom desk, I've done it with this french designer, see picture :
> http://modson.fr/details-station-de-travail-eclipse.php



Those look like stage props for Star Trek. I like those.


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## MacQ

I must be the only composer alive who uses the set-up I have ... but since it's the best in the known universe, I feel I have to share it with you all. Tomorrow. It deserves a back-story.


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## Creston

I've been trying to figure this out myself. I have an Ikea desk that I'm looking to get an MDF piece cut to size that's bigger than the Ikea table top (less deep and wider) to put on the Ikea frame. I was going to have brackets at the front hold an Alesis 88 but after reading they're 22lbs, I'm thinking they might rip out. Especially when trying to hit 127 velocities with perc libraries. 

Now I'm thinking of getting a piece of MDF cut to the width of the Alesis 88, lower my desk slightly, then have another less deep, same width piece of MDF go on top and hang over the Alesis 88 from the back to where the keys start. 

Now I've got to figure out how to have the top MDF panel rise up and be stable to support my screen and speakers. In a way it's like creating a big open ended briefcase for the master keyboard to fit into.

In a lot of the pictures I see with the master keyboard fitted into the desk, I take it they've removed the outer casing?


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## chimuelo

I would love to get the VI Composer desk at some point, 
until then I will continue standing to do everything as I drag my recording
studio around for real time parameter modulation and automation.


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## emu

Creston @ 11th June said:


> In a lot of the pictures I see with the master keyboard fitted into the desk, I take it they've removed the outer casing?



I don´t think you can simply remove the outer case with every keyboard as you need the electronics sitting in the right place. Fancy knobs and sliders on top of most keyboards would probably be a show stopper for perfect (ergonomic) integration. 
The only solution for this target I found was the already mentioned Doepfer LMK series. Removing the flight case is very simple or you can buy these keyboards even without any case (upon request).

I then asked a local carpenter to modify my Sterling modular Plan D and integrate the LMK2+ into the desk, similar to the solution groove posted above and I am really happy with this solution (as the keyboard is very low in height there is no problem with legroom).

If you find a matching electronics unit for a naked fatar keyboard it would probably be another (maybe) cheaper solution but I couldn´t find the electronics alone and Doepfer is not selling the LMK control panel separately.


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## stillcd

I built my own desk using this YouTube video as a guide. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2ZKfJshmbc

It has drawer slides on the keyboard "shelf" to allow me to slide my master keyboard in and out from under my desk. So this gives me plenty of space to have my computer keyboard and mouse sitting in a normal position on the top of my desk. I also built it so that there is plenty of room for my legs to go under the desk while working. I can post some pictures later if anyone's interested. The whole project cost around $150 for all materials. Similar products would cost at least $2000 if you were to buy one. Took about 12 hours to build and about 3 weeks to do all of the staining and finishing with polyurethane. But the end result is AMAZING! 

Cody


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## Ozymandias

emu,

Doesn't Doepfer's keyboard have the same TP40/GH action as Fatar's own SL990?

If so, using the Doepfer as a donor seems like an expensive way of harvesting what is basically the same keyboard...


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## emu

Ozymandias @ 11th June said:


> emu,
> 
> Doesn't Doepfer's keyboard have the same TP40/GH action as Fatar's own SL990?
> 
> If so, using the Doepfer as a donor seems like an expensive way of harvesting what is basically the same keyboard...



Yes, it´s the same fatar keyboard (TP40GH) but the difference is the electronics which is more complex on the Doepfer side. There are many keyboards out there using the same fatar TP40GH keyboard but they all react different and got different features.


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## AC986

chimuelo @ Wed Jun 11 said:


> I would love to get the VI Composer desk at some point,
> until then I will continue standing to do everything as I drag my recording
> studio around for real time parameter modulation and automation.



Chim, is that your Granddad in the background playing a guitar?


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## TheUnfinished

This is my somewhat strung out current studio set-up.
http://instagram.com/p/pGK_QRPUT-/#


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## Nick Batzdorf

I'm not a fan of computer keyboard drawers unless you have your forearms anchored on chair arms. Otherwise you have to create the anchors with your muscles, and that results in all kinds of bad stuff - carpal tunnel problems, neck and shoulder tightness, etc. But even with chair arms, the angle feels very uncomfortable for me.

And sliding the MIDI keyboard under your desk means you have to slide yourself back to play it when it comes out, and then you're the wrong distance from your monitor and speakers.

That's why I say the best solution is to have the desktop slide over the MIDI keyboard. Your computer keyboard and mouse move into the same position above the piano keys that Alex put his - i.e. the computer keyboard is where it would be if it were built into the MIDI keyboard.

I've tried every other configuration imaginable, and this is the only one I've found that works (given that I need a desk to work on as well as access to the piano keyboard). So far I've been using this configuration for over ten years, originally with a construction using Ultimate Support hardware then with my official Composer's Desk.


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## chillbot

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 11 said:


> I'm not a fan of computer keyboard drawers unless you have your forearms anchored on chair arms. Otherwise you have to create the anchors with your muscles, and that results in all kinds of bad stuff - carpal tunnel problems, neck and shoulder tightness, etc.



Here's a view of the actual desk I had built that I posted a rough diagram on page 1. But the reason I'm posting it is these:

http://www.ergorest.fi/en/forearm_support/

The ergorest are the greatest thing to ever happen to carpal tunnel, believe me on this. They give you 100% full range of motion with total arm support. I am not affiliated in any way with them but I honestly believe every person on this board should buy a pair immediately.

Not sure if you can get the idea how functional they really are. As I type this my arms are comfortably at my side, supported by them. (You'll notice my chair has the arm rests removed.) As I move my hands about 4 inches forward to play the piano keyboard, the arms glide with me (over the computer keyboard desk) for full support while keeping my posture (back) in an upright position. Or I can glide to either side to use a mouse (I use both left and right-handed mouse).


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## tcollins

After decades of neck and back pain, I built this desk in one day from materials available from any building supply store (Lowes in this case). It has made my life so much easier. I built another one for a client's studio that includes a computer keyboard/mouse shelf (Ikea) that pulls out over the keyboard. His is also a bit wider to accommodate a larger keyboard and 19 inch rack spaces on either side of the computer.

The profile of the side panels could be improved by making the upper part a long curve (like a fancy mixing desk). Led lights are optional!
TC


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