# Which analog to midi guitar converters do you use?



## David Enos

Hello -

Forgive me if this was posted elsewhere, I couldn't find it. I am a bassist who also plays a little keyboard. My keyboard chops are fine for chords or slow moving lines but when it comes to fast lines I am way more faster and accurate with my primary instrument. I've been looking into the possibility of using an analog to midi converting device, and since the waveforms on bass cause way too much latency, I am playing around with the idea of putting guitar strings on a bass, playing it like a bass, and using an analog to midi converter for faster lines. Has anyone done this? If you play guitar, do you do this? Which converters have the lowest latency (cost is not a problem)? Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions you may have, much appreciated


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## Russell Moran

MIDI Guitar by Jam Origin http://www.jamorigin.com and a fast Mac (2017 i7 iMac).

rz


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## Coincidental

A +1 from me for Jam Origin. I've been using it since beta and it's got better and better - and was always pretty great. There's a limit to how perfect tracking can be, and it can help to adapt your playing style slightly if all you want is to input MIDI accurately, but I've found it to work so straightforwardly (once you've worked out how to route it all) that it's changed the way I work. And it's polyphonic... 

It's been over a decade since I last tried a hardware solution, and there was nothing then to match this software, but I'd be interested to hear if that's changed.

Oh, and they do a Bass version too: http://www.jamorigin.com/products/midi-bass/. Check out the demo?


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## David Enos

Russell Moran said:


> MIDI Guitar by Jam Origin http://www.jamorigin.com and a fast Mac (2017 i7 iMac).
> 
> rz


I'm on PC using Pro Tools (which is sketchy in regard to vsts) although I have been eyeing this software. I just saw they came out with version 2 though. Am wondering if it tracks faster. I've also heard great things about the Fishman Triple Play. It's supposed to have the lowest latency. Am wondering your opinion in regards to Jam Origin versus Triple Play? Any experience using it?


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## David Enos

Coincidental said:


> A +1 from me for Jam Origin. I've been using it since beta and it's got better and better - and was always pretty great. There's a limit to how perfect tracking can be, and it can help to adapt your playing style slightly if all you want is to input MIDI accurately, but I've found it to work so straightforwardly (once you've worked out how to route it all) that it's changed the way I work. And it's polyphonic...
> 
> It's been over a decade since I last tried a hardware solution, and there was nothing then to match this software, but I'd be interested to hear if that's changed.
> 
> Oh, and they do a Bass version too: http://www.jamorigin.com/products/midi-bass/. Check out the demo?



Yes, I've checked out Jam Origin, tried the demo. As far as hardware, I did a search on some guitar forums for fastest tracking converter and most people said the Fishman Triple Play was the best. I'm hoping someone with Jam Origin AND Triple PLay will chime in. As far as the bass converter from Jam Origin, the latency was substantial. Unfortunately no one has been able to fix this because the length of the waveform from bass notes are so much longer than the higher pitched guitar waveforms that both hardware and software converters require more time for the waveform to complete a cycle so it can recognize the pitch and send the corresponding midi note. Wish it wasn't so but you can't argue with physics. Oh well...


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## wst3

stranger than fiction... I still use an IVL Pitchrider 7000 MKii and every once in a while a Yamaha G10.


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## David Enos

wst3 said:


> stranger than fiction... I still use an IVL Pitchrider 7000 MKii and every once in a while a Yamaha G10.



Lol...I don't even know what those are


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## wst3

David Enos said:


> Lol...I don't even know what those are


That is (sadly) not at all surprising.

For the curious...

The IVL Pitchrider uses a "standard" split magnetic pickup that must be mounted (quite carefully) on the guitar. The brains are in a 1RU box that has a 2 digit LED display. there is also an optional footswitch that it turns out is not at all optional. It was badged by Kramer, Digitech, and eventually IVL.

It works reasonably well, but suffers from the same problems that plague most pitch to MIDI converters - false triggering on harmonics, and sluggish tracking on the lowest notes (pesky laws of physics!)

The Yamaha G10 uses a special controller that doesn't really look like a guitar, but it has six strings - did I mention they are all the same guage and must be detuned from each other? That's right, you can't play this thing without headphones because you do NOT want to hear the sounds the strings generate in the air! The controller uses several techniques - I used to know - and tracks brilliantly. I've still not come across anything that tracks more accurately.

Yamaha G10 Review from 1988
IVL Pitchrider 7000 information


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## David Enos

wst3 said:


> That is (sadly) not at all surprising.
> 
> For the curious...
> 
> The IVL Pitchrider uses a "standard" split magnetic pickup that must be mounted (quite carefully) on the guitar. The brains are in a 1RU box that has a 2 digit LED display. there is also an optional footswitch that it turns out is not at all optional. It was badged by Kramer, Digitech, and eventually IVL.
> 
> It works reasonably well, but suffers from the same problems that plague most pitch to MIDI converters - false triggering on harmonics, and sluggish tracking on the lowest notes (pesky laws of physics!)
> 
> The Yamaha G10 uses a special controller that doesn't really look like a guitar, but it has six strings - did I mention they are all the same guage and must be detuned from each other? That's right, you can't play this thing without headphones because you do NOT want to hear the sounds the strings generate in the air! The controller uses several techniques - I used to know - and tracks brilliantly. I've still not come across anything that tracks more accurately.
> 
> Yamaha G10 Review from 1988
> IVL Pitchrider 7000 information



Cool, I actually looked up the G10. There's one for sale for $695 USD. But it seems there must be something better - the tech must've improved since then it seems. Thanks for sharing this, I was not aware of either of these controllers.

I also looked up the synthaxe for sale, none to be found. THAT guitar/controller MUST have extra low latency, Allan Holdsworth used to play really fast legato lines on it live. It even had a breath controller for CC1 dynamics.

A funny side note related to this - Years ago I used to play bass with David Benoit who was a Yamaha endorsee. Yamaha used to sell libraries (on floppy disks) of various famous artists playing on their Diskclavier (basically a digital player piano triggered by midi in case you aren't familiar with it). The idea was that a customer who owned a diskclavier could buy a floppy disk that contained midi files of an artist they liked playing on a diskclavier, insert it into the floppy disk port, and the piano would start to play the midi file of the artist playing (either for a novelty at parties or for educational purposes as a piano student).

Anyway, Yamaha got the idea that they wanted more than just pianists playing so I was hired (along with David's drummer) to play along with David on Yamaha's then current midi bass and drums respectively. We get to the studio, drums track fine as you might expect. But the new bass from Yamaha is giving me all sorts of problems. The bass was built with sensors under each fret so it would respond to whatever fret was played, not unlike a midi keyboard. ZER0 latency since there is no pitch to midi conversion, the strings could be out of tune and it would still trigger the corresponding correct pitch assigned to that fret. Great idea, right? You'd think so...except...

Like most other string players, when I place a finger down on a string, the fingers BEHIND the depressed finger are also down on the frets, providing extra support. Low end chromatic joy! Well, after messing with it for about 15 minutes (trying to readjust my technique) and various unrepeatable expletives I finally gave up and played the bass part on a midi keyboard. To be fair, perhaps the sensitivity could be adjusted but there was no time to read up on it. I thought it was a great idea in theory and probably would've bought one if it worked. Oh well...

Sure hope others chime in on more current tech, it seems it must've gotten better.


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## premjj

David Enos said:


> Hello -
> 
> Forgive me if this was posted elsewhere, I couldn't find it. I am a bassist who also plays a little keyboard. My keyboard chops are fine for chords or slow moving lines but when it comes to fast lines I am way more faster and accurate with my primary instrument. I've been looking into the possibility of using an analog to midi converting device, and since the waveforms on bass cause way too much latency, I am playing around with the idea of putting guitar strings on a bass, playing it like a bass, and using an analog to midi converter for faster lines. Has anyone done this? If you play guitar, do you do this? Which converters have the lowest latency (cost is not a problem)? Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions you may have, much appreciated



Thanks a ton for creating this thread. I had no idea till now about the software that have been listed here as a response. 

It opens up a world of possibilities with my existing gear.


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## wst3

Hi David - I'm a big fan of Mr. Benoit! I place him up there with Vince Guaraldi (and Bill Evans) as one of my favorite pianists. His taste and technique are equally remarkable. That must have been a fun gig.

Anyway, you hit the problem squarely - in order to use any pitch to MIDI converter one needs to adapt to the quirks of whatever methods are used. Fret switching requires tremendous discipline in the fretting hand. Most other techniques require tremendous discipline in both hands, but are more forgiving to the fretting hand.

Of the few I've tried (Yamaha, IVL, Roland, Axon, and yes, Jam Origin) I still turn to the IVL most of the time. Probably because I've been using it for ages. 

And as I type that I should add I've created a slightly different setup. I use a Roland pickup (both 25 and 13 pin versions) which I connect to a GR-300, from which I pick up the individual string signals post compressor. That seems to "help" the Pitchrider detect pitches with fewer glitches.

I have tried several versions of Jam Origin, and I probably owe it to myself to try it again.


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## Lode_Runner

David Enos said:


> I am playing around with the idea of putting guitar strings on a bass


Regarding this, I'm not sure that'd work. 

If you've got a bass that has a long scale length like a Fender Jazz, then guitar strings probably won't be long enough to span from tail piece to tuning heads. Also there's the obvious differences in string gauge, with guitar strings being so much thinner they'll have a lot more room to slip out of place in the nut and saddle grooves of a bass causing tuning issues. The ball end of guitar strings probably won't be wide enough to anchor in the tail piece of a bass either. Also typical gauged guitar strings on the longer scale length of a bass would need to be tuned to a far higher tension to reach standard guitar tuning, probably getting into the territory where they'll snap. Then there's the pushing down of the strings over the higher frets which would mean intonation issues... okay I'll shut up now.


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## David Enos

wst3 said:


> Hi David - I'm a big fan of Mr. Benoit! I place him up there with Vince Guaraldi (and Bill Evans) as one of my favorite pianists. His taste and technique are equally remarkable. That must have been a fun gig.
> 
> Anyway, you hit the problem squarely - in order to use any pitch to MIDI converter one needs to adapt to the quirks of whatever methods are used. Fret switching requires tremendous discipline in the fretting hand. Most other techniques require tremendous discipline in both hands, but are more forgiving to the fretting hand.
> 
> Of the few I've tried (Yamaha, IVL, Roland, Axon, and yes, Jam Origin) I still turn to the IVL most of the time. Probably because I've been using it for ages.
> 
> And as I type that I should add I've created a slightly different setup. I use a Roland pickup (both 25 and 13 pin versions) which I connect to a GR-300, from which I pick up the individual string signals post compressor. That seems to "help" the Pitchrider detect pitches with fewer glitches.
> 
> I have tried several versions of Jam Origin, and I probably owe it to myself to try it again.



Hi Bill! Good to meet you online. Sorry for the delayed response, I am mired in a home improvement project at the moment. Yeah, it was a good gig and David actually took over for Vince Guaraldi on the Charlie Brown shows. Played on two of them with him. 

Yep, I just don't have the discipline with my fretting hand. I also wonder about the effectiveness of playing with only one finger on a fret at a time. As a teacher over the years I've always taught my students about economy of motion and that it's easier to play faster with smaller movements (keep the non-depressed fingers very close to the fingerboard) or no movement (all fingers are down behind the finger playing the actual desired note). Imagine trying to emulate a trill on a stringed instrument (hammer ons/pull offs) WITHOUT leaving the finger down on the lower fret. Seems like you could only go so fast. Perhaps tapping would work? As you said, adaptation is a must...

Question: The Roland pickup you use, is that what would be called a hex pickup? I've seen people talking about this (each individual string going to a different output) but I don't understand the reason why individual string outputs would help with pitch detection. Are they EQed differently? 

I tried Jam Origin recently on guitar (the demo version), still a little too much latency for my taste. Have you tried the Fishman Triple Play? Looking forward to your response and good to connect with you


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## David Enos

premjj said:


> Thanks a ton for creating this thread. I had no idea till now about the software that have been listed here as a response.
> 
> It opens up a world of possibilities with my existing gear.


 
You bet!


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## David Enos

Lode_Runner said:


> Regarding this, I'm not sure that'd work.
> 
> If you've got a bass that has a long scale length like a Fender Jazz, then guitar strings probably won't be long enough to span from tail piece to tuning heads. Also there's the obvious differences in string gauge, with guitar strings being so much thinner they'll have a lot more room to slip out of place in the nut and saddle grooves of a bass causing tuning issues. The ball end of guitar strings probably won't be wide enough to anchor in the tail piece of a bass either. Also typical gauged guitar strings on the longer scale length of a bass would need to be tuned to a far higher tension to reach standard guitar tuning, probably getting into the territory where they'll snap. Then there's the pushing down of the strings over the higher frets which would mean intonation issues... okay I'll shut up now.



Lol! Yeah, I've been wondering the same things myself. Particularly about the string length spanning the neck. I suppose I could try buying a set of guitar strings and try it out on my bass (tuned an octave up of course). Or perhaps using strings from some other string instrument. I didn't think about the strings slipping out of the saddle but yes, that could be a possibility. I think the bridges I use will accommodate the ball end of the strings though. Snapping could be a problem, yes. Actually, this conversation just gave me the idea to call a friend of mine who plays a "piccolo bass". I should call him and ask about his set up. I know he uses a midi bass too. Hmm...Incidentally, the issue for me with guitar (besides playing with a pick) is the width of the strings from one another. Just not used to it. This is all going to take some experimenting...it would really be nice though to be able to put in some playing on my instrument (kinda) while composing. Thanks for your input! Great post!


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## scoble08

David Enos said:


> Lol! Yeah, I've been wondering the same things myself. Particularly about the string length spanning the neck. I suppose I could try buying a set of guitar strings and try it out on my bass (tuned an octave up of course). Or perhaps using strings from some other string instrument. I didn't think about the strings slipping out of the saddle but yes, that could be a possibility. I think the bridges I use will accommodate the ball end of the strings though. Snapping could be a problem, yes. Actually, this conversation just gave me the idea to call a friend of mine who plays a "piccolo bass". I should call him and ask about his set up. I know he uses a midi bass too. Hmm...Incidentally, the issue for me with guitar (besides playing with a pick) is the width of the strings from one another. Just not used to it. This is all going to take some experimenting...it would really be nice though to be able to put in some playing on my instrument (kinda) while composing. Thanks for your input! Great post!



I use Melodyne Studio to convert guitar/bass to midi. Doesn't seem to requite as much "cleaning" as when I use jamOrigin midiGuitar.


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## wst3

David Enos said:


> Hi Bill! Good to meet you online. Sorry for the delayed response, I am mired in a home improvement project at the moment. Yeah, it was a good gig and David actually took over for Vince Guaraldi on the Charlie Brown shows. Played on two of them with him.


Bury the lead much<G>? That sounds incredible!



David Enos said:


> Yep, I just don't have the discipline with my fretting hand. I also wonder about the effectiveness of playing with only one finger on a fret at a time. As a teacher over the years I've always taught my students about economy of motion and that it's easier to play faster with smaller movements (keep the non-depressed fingers very close to the fingerboard) or no movement (all fingers are down behind the finger playing the actual desired note). Imagine trying to emulate a trill on a stringed instrument (hammer ons/pull offs) WITHOUT leaving the finger down on the lower fret. Seems like you could only go so fast. Perhaps tapping would work? As you said, adaptation is a must...


So true - all of it. I studied (years ago) from the Dennis Sandoli world view, and efficiency in both hands was a core component of his method. I was younger (much younger) and it took a couple years for the wisdom of many of his techniques to sink in. I now use most of those ideas in my own teaching (and suggest my students at least read "Guitar Lore")!

[QUOTE="David EnosQuestion: The Roland pickup you use, is that what would be called a hex pickup? I've seen people talking about this (each individual string going to a different output) but I don't understand the reason why individual string outputs would help with pitch detection. Are they EQed differently? [/QUOTE]
Now this is a deep topic! You are warned!

The hex pickup, magnetic (Roland, IVL, & others) or piezo electric (RMC, Fishman, & others) has an individual output for each string. As you might guess, the magnetic hex pickups do suffer from more cross-talk than the piezo-electric pickups. But from my experience most of the pitch to MIDI converters seem to work a little better with magnetic pickups. That could be because they were originally designed around magnetic pickups. It could also be that the piezo pickups tend to reproduce the upper octaves better - which might wrap around to the design issue?

They sound different too, again you'd have guessed as much. The piezo pickups give you that under-saddle, almost a guitar sound we all know and love. The magnetic pickups sound more like a conventional magnetic pickup.

For the Roland VG series the sound difference makes a difference. There is a piezo setting, but it does not eliminate the effect of the different pickups.The result is that any given model (e.g. ES-335 through a Fender Twin) will sound different depending on the pickup in use, and there is only so much you can do to mitigate the differences. Not a deal breaker, and in fact for some VG sounds I prefer magnetic, for others I prefer piezo - I am far too lazy to deal with that though!

To your specific question (you knew I'd get here eventually) - some of the input stages provide different high and low pass filters for each string. Some put a comparator (basically a level detector) with different time constants on each string. Some do nothing. The challenge stems from the fact that each string covers over an octave, but they are spaced only a fourth (ok, and a third in one case) apart. The low E string and the A string can both play a B, how do you know which one played it? Do you care? (I think that is part of the magic behind Jam Origin, but I don't know that for a fact!)

Even so, knowing which string was plucked does limit the number of "legal" notes, and simplifies (a little) the detection process. Even early analog pitch-to-voltage converters (Arp Avatar, 360 Systems Spectre, Roland GR-300) depended on a divided pickup. Some might argue those systems were a little more responsive. In the case of the GR-300 that is probably due to the fact that it did not depend on pitch extraction in the purest sense of the word. The Avatar and Spectre were notoriously flaky!

[QUOTE="David EnosI tried Jam Origin recently on guitar (the demo version), still a little too much latency for my taste. Have you tried the Fishman Triple Play? Looking forward to your response and good to connect with you [/QUOTE]

I try pretty much every new version of Origin. It is tantalizingly close, but I agree, it isn't quite there yet. I have great optimism that it will get there.

I find the Triple Play to be no better than Roland, or Axon, or any of the others that I've tried. I am still using the IVL Pitchrider 7000 as my main converter (driving it with different pickups though) because none of the newer gear is sufficiently better. If I were just starting out I'd probably get the latest Roland converter, it seems to be a little better.

If you mess around long enough you will discover that the low strings are slower to respond - simple physics I'm afraid - we need 1/2 cycle to know for certain the note. There are some cheats where we can look at the fundamental, and a couple harmonics and figure it out a little quicker, but they are not 100% reliable.

Another option is to use Melodyne or something similar to do the conversion after the fact. Much better than realtime, but not nearly as satisfying! Of course doing it off-line means you don't have to fuss with that half cycle thing<G>!


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## David Enos

wst3 said:


> Bury the lead much<G>? That sounds incredible!



Hey Bill, thanks for the reply! Sorry for the late response, finished building my deck and then got swamped with work. I appreciate the explanation about hex pickups. I don't know what you mean by 'bury the lead much', sorry. Good to know about the Triple Play vs. the others. I actually kinda dig the Melodyne idea! Great idea, and yeah, it kinda isn't the same as playing something in real time, not as much fun definitely, but if it works that would be very cool! I'll have to try it. Great post and THANK YOU!


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## Hired Goon

I looked into this a few years ago and came to the conclusion that it's nothing but a compromise. Fun to experiment with but at the end of the day it's a science project and not reliable enough for real time or live use.


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## sonicviz

I use Jam Origin Midi Guitar 2 and it's very good.

To get the best out of it you need to learn the software and adapt your playing style.
I think that could be said of any technology or instrument, in this case you're extending your guitar/bass into a hyperinstrument so you'll need to adjust a little. Nothing is perfect, but with a little work you can get an amazing new sound toy.

Good article on some of those issues here:
https://theproaudiofiles.com/jam-origins-midi-guitar-live-performance/

Also some great tips in these reviews:
https://www.bassgearmag.com/jam-origin-midi-guitar-2-and-midi-bass-real-time-audio-to-midi-software/
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/jam-origin-midi-guitar-2


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## DaveRodda

I used a hardware device for this in the late 90s called Amadeus. Coupled with software, it could analyze the accuracy of playing.
It's the Roland GI-10, and it serves a dual function: Converting a single-note analog input to a single-note MIDI out, and converting hex (up to six note) input from a GK-equipped device to up to six notes of MIDI out.

complete pcb


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