# Studio One users, how do you find S1 for big orchestral projects?



## Arise

I more or less started on S1 as my first DAW and instantly fell in love with how easy and intuitive it is. But one of the faults of it imo is, how it handles CPU usage and it still not being that great at handling big templates or a big number of tracks (?)

My question is:
Does anyone here do big orchestral projects in it, and if so, how do you find it to be, performance and stability wise, say compared to for example Cubase. So hundreds of Kontakt/PLAY instruments, etc.

If Cubase is much better in this regard I will consider the switch, it's the only other DAW I would consider switching to.


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## DS_Joost

Coming from a Studio One user, I'd strongly suggest Cubase for this sort of thing. It's just better and more stable at it. Studio One is good at many things except CPU performance and save times. Abysmal imo. I have been using it for a long time now, and I love it, but it's not ready for prime time regarding orchestral stuff. I myself am seeing myself strongly looking at Reaper again for that purpose, no matter how strongly I can feel against that DAW sometimes.

One day, I'm sure it'll click...


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## Arise

DS_Joost said:


> Coming from a Studio One user, I'd strongly suggest Cubase for this sort of thing. It's just better and more stable at it. Studio One is good at many things except CPU performance and save times. Abysmal imo. I have been using it for a long time now, and I love it, but it's not ready for prime time regarding orchestral stuff. I myself am seeing myself strongly looking at Reaper again for that purpose, no matter how strongly I can feel against that DAW sometimes.
> 
> One day, I'm sure it'll click...



I see, that's the feeling I get too. I just wish Presonus focused more on orchestral composers/scoring, since now they are going the electronic route (but apparently it's on their list).
Reaper is a cool DAW, but I'm not the type to tinker much to get stuff working as I want them to, however I find it pretty unique and completely different to any other DAW out there and I tried more or less all of them. I keep it as a backup DAW now or a temporary one at least until I decide between my main (S1, or eventually, Cubase)


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## Pudge

Would jump ship in a flash if Studio one added features for creating modular templates and handling track counts and expression maps. Also some sort of PLE would be nice to see.


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## Chris Hurst

As the posts above has said, it isn’t the best due to auto saves. I’ve found they can get in the way a bit, which is a real shame as I really like it otherwise.

If they can sort that out, I may have another look in future.

In the meantime, I’ve moved over to Cubase and can see why it is popular for larger templates.


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## tabulius

For smaller projects Studio One is great, but I had to move back to Cubase when I started to use a bigger 1000+ track template. Cubase is a much faster handling mega projects. I hope Studio One will improve, because I liked some of the workflow features. The transform midi to audio tracks was so great and I’m going to miss it when going back to Cubase.


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## Robert Kooijman

Well, despite being a Cubase user since Atari days, I can't deny that S1 gets my creative juices flowing more easily then e.g. C10. Especially when starting from scratch on a new song / arrangement.

IMHO there are just too many annoying little workflow and GUI related issues that Steinberg stubbornly refuses to change or fix.

To me, the advantages of S1 often outweigh it's limitations.
So, instead of using a 1000 track template and visibility agents for manoeuvring around, S1 stimulates you to do more with less. Or one might argue "forces" you. But that's not always a bad thing 

Looking at the rate of improvements happening over the last few years in S1, I'm optimistic...


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## ionian

As a studio one user, for the most part it's pretty good but yes, it is seriously far behind the competition when it comes to CPU usage. 

I was a very long time Sonar user and honestly Sonar is most likely one of, if not the top when it comes to CPU optimization. It's one of the few things that DAW actually excelled at.

I've moved projects over from Sonar to Studio One, exporting audio and midi and importing it S1, and saving the plug in settings and re-opening them in studio one so that the project is identical. Projects that hovered around 6% in Sonar were hitting anywhere from 28-30% in Studio One. It's kind of insane. I'm always rendering audio and deleting inserts to keep the CPU from pegging in the red which is something I never had to do with Sonar, no matter how many plugs I had running. How bad it is with the CPU has been a long time complaint and it's at the top of everyone's request lists but presonus is still lagging on it. Either they don't get it, or they can't figure out how to utilize all the cores of a CPU. 

It probably can optimize plug usage as well. If you're rendering or bouncing tracks, turn off all your plugs if the track doesn't need it to bounce or render (use the global on/off for effects) and all of a sudden rendering time increases 3x easily. Even if you're rendering the track solo'd! It has something to do that even if the other tracks are muted, S1 is calculating the plug ins or something and it slows everything down. There's a lot of things that show that Presonus isn't really knowledgeable in CPU / core usage and optimization.

It's one of the (very) few things I miss from Sonar. Well, that and non-destructive midi. It's strange S1 doesn't have that. It has non-destructive audio, but not midi. I miss that too from Sonar.


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## jonathanwright

Studio One definitely works best for a 'build as you go' composing process - and its workflow is pretty much designed to function that way.

So if you need a massive pre-built template, it isn't the best solution.

I've got around a lot of its limitations by creating a huge collection of instrument presets. I've then organised the presets into folders by instrument group, and also as 'templates'. So I can just open up a 'template' folder, select all and drag the whole lot into the project window, it takes seconds.

I've then created a very simple Macro which names all the channels in the mixer, inserts an EQ preset on all selected tracks and assigns them to a bus. I also use Keyboard Maestro to then trigger the bus name dialogue. 

So for example, I can select my Brass tracks, press the key command and they'll all be named, have an EQ preset applied, routed to a new bus with a pop up asking for the bus name. The whole process is instant.

In many ways I find that faster than working with a template.


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## chibear

New to S1 so can't comment on OP yet, but for those bothered (like me) with the autosave, you can turn it off. To replace it I added a macro button top left with 'SAVE' on it for when I actually do something worth saving.


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## soundmind

I use S1 in a similar way to Jonathan, though I setup my instrument presets (Strings, Synths, Guitars, etc.) in their own S1 'song template'. I also have a 'song template' with some of my instrument favorites as a starting point for composing. I keep a select few instruments enabled so as to keep load times down. 

No matter which song I record a track with an initial idea (Strings, Synths, my main song template, etc.), I save the song, then import that track (via the files section in S1) into a new blank S1 song (another template I have that includes my global effects already setup). The imported track contains the instrument preset, effect inserts, the recorded midi, and even my track color coding for different instruments. 

Then keeping with the "build as you go" process, I import other instrument tracks from their respective song templates to begin writing the track. Then to keep my song templates ready for the next idea, I simply delete the previously recorded midi track and re-save that song template.

I did not know about Jonathan's method, which seems like another great workflow, until I had already developed my setup. I really enjoy S1, and am hopeful for their continued improvements.


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## ionian

Chris Hurst said:


> As the posts above has said, it isn’t the best due to auto saves. I’ve found they can get in the way a bit, which is a real shame as I really like it otherwise.



Autosaves are annoying but they saved my bacon once. 

Studio One has a really weird bug where once in a blue moon when you open a project, it will actually open your project TWICE and keep one hidden. I learned this the hard way, with clients in the room. (It took forever to sort this bug out). 

So I opened a project which had been roughly sketched out in midi the day before. Spent almost 12 hours with musicians tracking everything for real. I saved and then closed Studio One. All of a sudden a dialog box opened that said, "Do you wish to save?" and I clicked "yes" like an idiot. All of a sudden you could actually see all the tracks and the work done all day disappear and then the file re-save! One of the musicians even said out loud, "What the f**k?!" My stomach hit the floor. I re-loaded the song and EVERYTHING was gone! All the work we had done all day. I was freaking out, the clients were freaking out. I just kept stuttering! 

Thank God for "Versions". I had checked versions and was able to re-load a previous auto save and got everything back except for a single track of guitar, which we quickly re-tracked while it was fresh in the guitarist's mind. 

It took me a while to hunt down the bug, which like I said, I eventually figured out that once in a while it will open two copies of the same project and hide one. So you work on one, then when you close Studio One, if it asks if you want to save again, it's actually referring to the hidden, untouched project. When I clicked "yes" it basically re-saved the untouched project as the most recent one!

The only workaround I've figured out to get around this bug is that I've gotten into the habit in Studio One now of when I'm actually done with everything, I do one final save and that way when I close Studio One right after, if it asks if I want to save I just click NO because I know I already saved it.

So that's something else I miss in Sonar...Sonar actually had a setting in the menu that says "Only allow one project at a time to be open" and you can choose if the program can't open more than one project.


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## Brian2112

As a former Sonar refugee myself, I usually start to compose and arrange in Studio One. If the thing gets too heavy I just port it to Cubase. A lot of CPU intensive stuff I have running in VE pro anyway and have track templates of those in both so it’s just a matter of transferring the midi. Using more than one DAW is not that uncommon these days. In my opinion, Cubase is the king (on PC) for now. But potentially S1 could far surpass it at some point.


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## jbuhler

I haven’t experienced the CPU issues personally, and for me it seems to work better in that respect than Logic. S1 has also been more stable for me than Logic. I agree it works best with load as you go rather than large templates. I find when I get more than about 40 midi tracks it just gets hard to find things because of the way S1 manages the Instrument plug-in windows.


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## ionian

Also, if you use Kontakt in Studio One, make sure to turn on the Multi-core support in the Kontakt settings! If you check the warnings in Kontakt, it says to not turn it on if your DAW uses Multi cores because it'll cause conflictions. Because I used Sonar which was excellent with multi-cores I used to leave it off. 

When I switched to Studio One, I had a lot of problems using even mid-level kontakt libraries in Studio One without the meter pegging in the red on even a moderate number of notes. When I figured out that Studio One doesn't utilize multi-cores, I switched on the multi-core support in Kontakt, set it for the number of cores I have, and then Kontakt's usage dropped a huge amount and then I didn't have issues using libraries in Studio One.


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## muziksculp

For very large templates, using Slave PCs with VE-Pro is the safest, and most reliable way to go, that imho. applies to any DAW that has to deal with a huge track count template.

I love working with Studio One Pro 4, it is very stable (I'm on PC-Windows 8.1 Pro), and for large template work, I use two slave PCs via VE-Pro 6. I was a Cubase Pro 9 user, but the workflow in S1Pro 4 is fast, and wonderful compared to Cubase, I also feel Cubase is getting too clunky, with too many features, and it is slow to open, and save projects, S1Pro 4 just feel a lot snappier for me.

Hopefully Presonus will update it with more Scoring/Orchestral composer related features that will make it more efficient, productive, and suitable for this type of genre. I think the next big upgrade with new features will be Studio One Pro 4.5.


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## soundmind

ionian said:


> Also, if you use Kontakt in Studio One, make sure to turn on the Multi-core support in the Kontakt settings! If you check the warnings in Kontakt, it says to not turn it on if your DAW uses Multi cores because it'll cause conflictions. Because I used Sonar which was excellent with multi-cores I used to leave it off.
> 
> When I switched to Studio One, I had a lot of problems using even mid-level kontakt libraries in Studio One without the meter pegging in the red on even a moderate number of notes. When I figured out that Studio One doesn't utilize multi-cores, I switched on the multi-core support in Kontakt, set it for the number of cores I have, and then Kontakt's usage dropped a huge amount and then I didn't have issues using libraries in Studio One.


Thanks for the info!


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## 5Lives

S1 needs some things before it is great for orchestral work, but I would put my money of it getting there before Steinberg fixes many of the long-standing workflow issues and “design choices” of Cubase.


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## JPQ

jbuhler said:


> I haven’t experienced the CPU issues personally, and for me it seems to work better in that respect than Logic. S1 has also been more stable for me than Logic. I agree it works best with load as you go rather than large templates. I find when I get more than about 40 midi tracks it just gets hard to find things because of the way S1 manages the Instrument plug-in windows.


I feel also work better my old Logic (9.1.8). in btw i msut i try check today how hardware synths work with it. and few other things. and i itself dont like premade templates maybe related how poor my mac mini is. and i want simple projects not projects ith many tracks (soon as possible switch pc side and i dont generally like wrote complex projects like more songs few carefully selected elements like one song earlier this forum what i think is cello and piano).


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## ThomasL

Robert Kooijman said:


> To me, the advantages of S1 often outweigh it's limitations.
> So, instead of using a 1000 track template and visibility agents for manoeuvring around, S1 stimulates you to do more with less. Or one might argue "forces" you. But that's not always a bad thing


+1

I've saved quite a few instruments as "Export Instrument + FX Preset..." and if I need anything it's just drag-and-drop and it's there. Works good for almost all single instruments as well as my hardware synths. Kontakt Multis on the other hand, not so good. So I keep a basic setup of multis disabled in S1 and enable them when they are needed.

S1 has made me think in new ways, I was a bit obsessed with BIG ULTIMATE templates for quite some time but using less has gotten me to write better. At least I think so


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## puremusic

ThomasL said:


> +1
> 
> I've saved quite a few instruments as "Export Instrument + FX Preset..." and if I need anything it's just drag-and-drop and it's there. Works good for almost all single instruments as well as my hardware synths.



Oh how do you do that? Is that a V4 thing, or have I overlooked it in Version 3?


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## ThomasL

puremusic said:


> Oh how do you do that? Is that a V4 thing, or have I overlooked it in Version 3?


I *think* it's available in v3 as well...

Like this:





"Store" and "Export" are the same thing but Export gives you the possibility to store it wherever you like and not in Kontakts presets.






All those presets have any panning, FX and whatnot already applied. Reverb is "standard" in my template and the only thing (most often) I need to adjust after inserting the instrument.


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## puremusic

Ah-ha, there it is thanks. One of those functions I overlooked. This will be quite handy!


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## ThomasL

Yes, it's a great function!


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## Mason

This was the reason I didn’t go for Studio One after demoing it and I think multi core support is the #1 feature request by the users.


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## ThomasL

Mason said:


> This was the reason I didn’t go for Studio One after demoing it and I think multi core support is the #1 feature request by the users.


For what it's worth Studio One can withstand a larger session with lower latency on my rig than Logic, so I guess it depends on more than just "multi core support"...


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## jbuhler

ThomasL said:


> For what it's worth Studio One can withstand a larger session with lower latency on my rig than Logic, so I guess it depends on more than just "multi core support"...


I agree. I've never experienced a multi core problem using S1. I find it harder to navigate in S1 as the track count increases and the tabs fill up with VIs.


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## Mason

ThomasL said:


> For what it's worth Studio One can withstand a larger session with lower latency on my rig than Logic, so I guess it depends on more than just "multi core support"...



It couldn't handle my 300-400 track template well. I'm referring to the highest voted feature request on their forum and it has been requested for 2 years: CPU multicore support is needed. Especially for Multi Instruments.


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## ionian

Sonar is multi-core. Studio One is not. Projects that run at 6% in Sonar run at almost 30% in Studio One. 

Once some of you guys use a DAW that's actually multi-core, you'll understand.


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## ThomasL

ionian said:


> Sonar is multi-core. Studio One is not. Projects that run at 6% in Sonar run at almost 30% in Studio One.
> 
> Once some of you guys use a DAW that's actually multi-core, you'll understand.



Well, that would leave about 70% left to go 

I'll start my craving when the need comes, haven't yet. The demo song "Phat Hat - Phat Funk" with a latency of 16 samples gets the CPU meter moving to 4%. (Yes, I know it's not any multi core instruments in it but anyway.)


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## Akarin

It doesn't have any articulation switching feature (like Cubase Expression Maps or Logic Articulation Sets), so it's mostly unusable for my workflow.


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## DS_Joost

It's not just CPU usage. I find Studio One to be slow all around. Saving is slow. Loading instruments is slow. Loading a project is slow. It becomes slow when using an x amount of tracks, even when disabled, because of the stupid way it handles tracks as objects even then...

It's a really good program with a great workflow, but the load and save times truly get on my nerves.


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## jbuhler

DS_Joost said:


> It's not just CPU usage. I find Studio One to be slow all around. Saving is slow. Loading instruments is slow. Loading a project is slow. It becomes slow when using an x amount of tracks, even when disabled, because of the stupid way it handles tracks as objects even then...
> 
> It's a really good program with a great workflow, but the load and save times truly get on my nerves.


Another thing I haven't noticed, maybe because I tend not to work on projects that have more than 40 tracks in Studio One since I find other things about the program get very kludgy when using high track counts. Its autosave is more intrusive compared to other DAWs and about 80% of the time it crashes on closing the program or project if I have used Kontakt. And it's guaranteed to crash on close if I use it for more than about 15 minutes. I mean, if it's going to crash, that's a good place for it to crash, but it's still annoying. (I also reported it to support on several occasions, but they've never been able to resolve the issue, which I've been having it since about SO 3.2.) Load time for me doesn't seem any different than Logic for a similar sized project.


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## PaulieDC

jonathanwright said:


> Studio One definitely works best for a 'build as you go' composing process - and its workflow is pretty much designed to function that way.
> 
> So if you need a massive pre-built template, it isn't the best solution.
> 
> I've got around a lot of its limitations by creating a huge collection of instrument presets. I've then organised the presets into folders by instrument group, and also as 'templates'. So I can just open up a 'template' folder, select all and drag the whole lot into the project window, it takes seconds.
> 
> I've then created a very simple Macro which names all the channels in the mixer, inserts an EQ preset on all selected tracks and assigns them to a bus. I also use Keyboard Maestro to then trigger the bus name dialogue.
> 
> So for example, I can select my Brass tracks, press the key command and they'll all be named, have an EQ preset applied, routed to a new bus with a pop up asking for the bus name. The whole process is instant.
> 
> In many ways I find that faster than working with a template.


If you did a screencast video on all that I'd BUY it. Srsly.


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## PaulieDC

ionian said:


> Also, if you use Kontakt in Studio One, make sure to turn on the Multi-core support in the Kontakt settings! If you check the warnings in Kontakt, it says to not turn it on if your DAW uses Multi cores because it'll cause conflictions. Because I used Sonar which was excellent with multi-cores I used to leave it off.
> 
> When I switched to Studio One, I had a lot of problems using even mid-level kontakt libraries in Studio One without the meter pegging in the red on even a moderate number of notes. When I figured out that Studio One doesn't utilize multi-cores, I switched on the multi-core support in Kontakt, set it for the number of cores I have, and then Kontakt's usage dropped a huge amount and then I didn't have issues using libraries in Studio One.


You are the NHL Start of the Week with this post. Thanks!!


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## PaulieDC

muziksculp said:


> For very large templates, using Slave PCs with VE-Pro is the safest, and most reliable way to go, that imho. applies to any DAW that has to deal with a huge track count template.
> 
> I love working with Studio One Pro 4, it is very stable (I'm on PC-Windows 8.1 Pro), and for large template work, I use two slave PCs via VE-Pro 6. I was a Cubase Pro 9 user, but the workflow in S1Pro 4 is fast, and wonderful compared to Cubase, I also feel Cubase is getting too clunky, with too many features, and it is slow to open, and save projects, S1Pro 4 just feel a lot snappier for me.
> 
> Hopefully Presonus will update it with more Scoring/Orchestral composer related features that will make it more efficient, productive, and suitable for this type of genre. I think the next big upgrade with new features will be Studio One Pro 4.5.


As a new guy to this, I was considering jumping ship on S1 even though it's the only DAW I've ever used (coming from all-audio mixing and LOVING S1 for that). Cubase Pro 10 is $332 to crossgrade from Studio One Pro. But reading this and others, I just don't want to give up the things that ARE great (Drag-Drop, Mastering, great overall sound for audio, built-in Melodyne, etc etc). MNot to mention the 5 years of familiarity with the UI. So since I'm a VI noob, I think I'll stay put and have faith that Studio One will grow faster than me, lol! There's also the new VEP 7 announcement that now allows a single license and pre-orders at $167USD after the conversion, seems like a way to deal with the CPU probs. Anyway, thanks for the post, I think I'll stay on deck for now.


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## Mucusman

jonathanwright said:


> So if you need a massive pre-built template, it isn't the best solution.
> 
> I've got around a lot of its limitations by creating a huge collection of instrument presets



Thank you so much, @jonathanwright. (I applied your ideas after you posted them on the Studio One board here last summer). This has revolutionized (or at least _greatly _sped up) my workflow in Studio One. I now have a series of shortcuts/presets for individual Kontakt instruments, organized by sections (brass, strings, woodwinds, piano, percussion, etc.) of my favorite patches. Somewhat akin to a large template, but different. Drag and drop and that instrument/patch is loaded and playable. I can't compare it to using a template in Cubase, but for me, I'm happy with this arrangement.


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## dzilizzi

Frankly, until you need it, I would stick with anything but Cubase. I find it very frustrating to use coming from ProTools and Sonar. Whereas S1 is easy. And maybe it is me, but when I load an instrument and have to exit and restart just to get the midi modifiers to activate so I can select an arp, it is a problem. And it happens a lot, but there is no rhyme or reason as to why something will work or not work. Though when it does work, it is still frustrating. You have to select the whole track - as in all items in the track - prior to opening the midi edit, if you want to edit more than the single bar. No other DAW works this way. Protools and S1 let you edit multiple midi tracks at the same time. Cubase doesn't have that. So there are pluses and minuses to midi in Cubase.


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## samphony

ionian said:


> Sonar is multi-core. Studio One is not. Projects that run at 6% in Sonar run at almost 30% in Studio One.
> 
> Once some of you guys use a DAW that's actually multi-core, you'll understand.


Studio One is multi-core aware. If I remember correctly the main difference between ie Logic and S1 is that Logics AU implementation will drop processing to a minimum if no data (midi or audio) is present under the playhead whereas S1 will constantly process all plugins even though AU and VST3 would allow dynamic processing.


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## jonathanwright

Mucusman said:


> Thank you so much, @jonathanwright. (I applied your ideas after you posted them on the Studio One board here last summer). This has revolutionized (or at least _greatly _sped up) my workflow in Studio One. I now have a series of shortcuts/presets for individual Kontakt instruments, organized by sections (brass, strings, woodwinds, piano, percussion, etc.) of my favorite patches. Somewhat akin to a large template, but different. Drag and drop and that instrument/patch is loaded and playable. I can't compare it to using a template in Cubase, but for me, I'm happy with this arrangement.



You're welcome, and thanks very much. it's nice to know it's come in useful!


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## chibear

New S1user here. I have a feeling that the multicore issue is a mac thing. I'm gradually ramping up my first large project in S1 on Windows 7 (3930k) and have been keeping an eye on Task Manager as I add tracks. At 40 tracks CPU is at 20% and the load is spread evenly over the odd-number threads. As the project grows it will be interesting to see if and how the even number threads are engaged.

As far as load times, I see little or no difference between S1, DP, or Mixcraft for that matter. IMO Kontakt is the bottleneck no matter what DAW you use.

Awhile ago I tried Jonathan's preset method and it is sweet. Couple that with a routing template ashe suggestred and workflow is going to be slick.


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## PaulieDC

chibear said:


> New S1user here. I have a feeling that the multicore issue is a mac thing. I'm gradually ramping up my first large project in S1 on Windows 7 (3930k) and have been keeping an eye on Task Manager as I add tracks. At 40 tracks CPU is at 20% and the load is spread evenly over the odd-number threads. As the project grows it will be interesting to see if and how the even number threads are engaged.
> 
> As far as load times, I see little or no difference between S1, DP, or Mixcraft for that matter. IMO Kontakt is the bottleneck no matter what DAW you use.
> 
> Awhile ago I tried Jonathan's preset method and it is sweet. Couple that with a routing template ashe suggestred and workflow is going to be slick.


I just went to Jon’s site and found his article on all the steps to do that, it’s basically a dream come true for studio one users, LOL.


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## spaunsam7

I've been using Joseph Trapaneze's Pro Tools session import method in S1 ever since the feature became available. It's great and very similar to some of the other methods mentioned here. I definitely agree with others that it gets wonky with those huge track counts.


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## samphony

spaunsam7 said:


> I've been using Joseph Trapaneze's Pro Tools session import method in S1 ever since the feature became available. It's great and very similar to some of the other methods mentioned here. I definitely agree with others that it gets wonky with those huge track counts.



I find what could be improved is the ability to drag import date to a location of choice. As of now all imported tracks land on the bottom of the tracks list.


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## PaulieDC

spaunsam7 said:


> I've been using Joseph Trapaneze's Pro Tools session import method in S1 ever since the feature became available. It's great and very similar to some of the other methods mentioned here. I definitely agree with others that it gets wonky with those huge track counts.



Great! I'll check it out!


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## Vehrka

jonathanwright said:


> Studio One definitely works best for a 'build as you go' composing process - and its workflow is pretty much designed to function that way.
> 
> So if you need a massive pre-built template, it isn't the best solution.
> 
> I've got around a lot of its limitations by creating a huge collection of instrument presets. I've then organised the presets into folders by instrument group, and also as 'templates'. So I can just open up a 'template' folder, select all and drag the whole lot into the project window, it takes seconds.
> 
> I've then created a very simple Macro which names all the channels in the mixer, inserts an EQ preset on all selected tracks and assigns them to a bus. I also use Keyboard Maestro to then trigger the bus name dialogue.
> 
> So for example, I can select my Brass tracks, press the key command and they'll all be named, have an EQ preset applied, routed to a new bus with a pop up asking for the bus name. The whole process is instant.
> 
> In many ways I find that faster than working with a template.



If you don't mind me asking, how exactly do you set up that type of macro? That seems like it would help a LOT in terms of workflow but unfortunately I'm not very smart when it comes to things like macros.


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## PaulieDC

Vehrka said:


> If you don't mind me asking, how exactly do you set up that type of macro? That seems like it would help a LOT in terms of workflow but unfortunately I'm not very smart when it comes to things like macros.


Hi Vehrka,

These two vids are pretty good explaining Macros. They aren't about making an instrument preset macro specifically but you'll see how the Macro process works:


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## jonathanwright

Vehrka said:


> If you don't mind me asking, how exactly do you set up that type of macro? That seems like it would help a LOT in terms of workflow but unfortunately I'm not very smart when it comes to things like macros.



Macro's in Studio One are actually reasonably easy to manage once you get the hang of them.

The screenshot below is the macro for naming, adding an EQ preset to a group of selected tracks, then routing them all to a new bus.

Trigger the command to name the mixer channels by their track preset name.
Add the EQ insert. You can choose any plugin and any preset related to that plugin, so it doesn't have to be an EQ. Just click in the 'Arguments' field for a pop-up window.
Trigger the command to assign a bus to the selected tracks.
You can then assign a key command to trigger the Macro, or create a button in the toolbar.


----------



## PaulieDC

Jon, I have a decent amount of training videos from Groove3, MacProVideo and Udemy. All 3 offer tons of audio courses as well as other subjects, and all 3 have DAW-specific courses including Studio One. But NONE of them have the vast amount of info you keep churning out in this forum and your website. If I were you I'd hammer together a "MIDI Orchestration in Studio One 4 Pro" course and get that out there. There is NO course like that, only generic "Editing MIDI in Studio One" that doesn't touch the stuff you know about. We'll eat it up and you'll get properly compensated for your effort and knowledge. Just my $.02.


----------



## PaulieDC

jonathanwright said:


> Macro's in Studio One are actually reasonably easy to manage once you get the hang of them.
> 
> The screenshot below is the macro for naming, adding an EQ preset to a group of selected tracks, then routing them all to a new bus.
> 
> Trigger the command to name the mixer channels by their track preset name.
> Add the EQ insert. You can choose any plugin and any preset related to that plugin, so it doesn't have to be an EQ. Just click in the 'Arguments' field for a pop-up window.
> Trigger the command to assign a bus to the selected tracks.
> You can then assign a key command to trigger the Macro, or create a button in the toolbar.


Jon, I have a decent amount of training videos from Groove3, MacProVideo and Udemy. All 3 offer tons of audio courses as well as other subjects, and all 3 have DAW-specific courses including Studio One. But NONE of them have the vast amount of info you keep churning out in this forum and your website. If I were you I'd hammer together a "MIDI Orchestration in Studio One 4 Pro" course and get that out there. There is NO course like that, only generic "Editing MIDI in Studio One" that doesn't touch the stuff you know about. We'll eat it up and you'll get properly compensated for your effort and knowledge. Just my $.02.


----------



## jonathanwright

PaulieDC said:


> Jon, I have a decent amount of training videos from Groove3, MacProVideo and Udemy. All 3 offer tons of audio courses as well as other subjects, and all 3 have DAW-specific courses including Studio One. But NONE of them have the vast amount of info you keep churning out in this forum and your website. If I were you I'd hammer together a "MIDI Orchestration in Studio One 4 Pro" course and get that out there. There is NO course like that, only generic "Editing MIDI in Studio One" that doesn't touch the stuff you know about. We'll eat it up and you'll get properly compensated for your effort and knowledge. Just my $.02.



Glad it's useful @PaulieDC, hopefully I'll get around to something like that one day!


----------



## Chris Hurst

@jonathanwright I wonder if you would mind expanding this part of the article a little?

"I recommend a handy little app called Keyboard Maestro on the Mac to automate the process of creating presets.

It takes a little setting up, but means I can open up Kontakt, navigate to a libraries instrument directory and ask Keyboard Maestro to select, save all of the instruments as Studio One presets automatically."

I'm looking into this way of working and anything that saves time is helpful, so I was just wondering if you could flesh out that part of the process a little, if you wouldn't mind?

Many thanks,

Chris


----------



## Lukas

That's a really interesting discussion.

Studio One is great for creating orchestral arrangements. Since version 3.5 / 4.0 MIDI editing is really powerful (improved multi track MIDI editing, editor/arrangement sync mode, MIDI filter, legato/adjacent notes tool), disabling tracks, linking tracks and channels (e.g. for multitimbral instruments with multi outs like KONTAKT or HALion Sonic) musicloops/Instrument+FX presets/Song Data Import make it really comfortable to organize instrument templates (even with an instant audio preview if you use musicloops).

But - as jonathan described in his article and in this thread - you should choose the modular approach instead of hundreds / thousands of instrument tracks (at least until PreSonus improves handling this amount of tracks). I switched to this workflow (having a well organized library of instrument presets on my HDD) and I found there are hardly disavantages over the huge template approach. Now I enjoy it to have a song that is not bigger than I need it to be. And dragging a preset from the S1 browsers is not slower than enabling a disabled track.

And as I already said it's really nice to be able to store a short phrase within the instrument preset so if I'm not sure if the preset fits for my current song I just double-click the .musicloop file (which contains the preset, insert FX, a FLAC preview file etc.) to audition it before I even need to load it into the project.

Maybe I could do a video tutorial for all this stuff in the next time...



muziksculp said:


> Hopefully Presonus will update it with more Scoring/Orchestral composer related features that will make it more efficient, productive, and suitable for this type of genre.


Could you list a few examples (without the articulation editor feature... we all know everybody is waiting for it ? If PreSonus reads this thread they can't put "Orchestral composer related features" into their ticket database 

What I personally need most is easier handling of instrument presets like drag'n'drop in the browser (it's possible in the files tab but not in the instrument tab). To move a preset into another folder we currently have to go into the user folder in Explorer/Finder and move it manually. But almost all essential MIDI / composing features I missed in 2016 have been added to Studio One in the last three years.

And I really find it remarkable that I haven't had CPU problems with bigger orchestral projects in Studio One (~ 100 tracks with about 80 KONTAKT instances). And I'm running a i7 from 2011... :D
So I guess many of the users having problems with that haven't checked out the dual latency engine / dropout protection that was introduced in Studio One 3.5. Whenever my song playback starts to crackle I set the dropout protection to a higher value. And due to the dual latency engine you can record a VSTi with a really low latency / buffer size anytime.


----------



## Dewdman42

The stuff being mentioned on this thread is really interesting! Makes me want to check out Studio One a bit more. The macro facility looks great! How are you guys handling articulation management with S1?


----------



## Lukas

Dewdman42 said:


> How are you guys handling articulation management with S1?


Like everyone did it before Cubase 6 (or 5?) introduced this feature  Recording or writing keyswitches and controller data into the instrument parts. (Or using them on different tracks)


----------



## muziksculp

I would like to see more track visibility features in Studio One Pro 4.5 Super important for workflow when working with a very large orchestral template. 

Basically creating more scenes I can switch between via Key Switches. 

A search by track name is another missing feature, also show all tracks with data, and any other useful track search, and visibility management tools. Plus some more custom colors, and auto color gradations for tracks in a folder, ...etc.


----------



## PaulieDC

Dewdman42 said:


> The stuff being mentioned on this thread is really interesting! Makes me want to check out Studio One a bit more. The macro facility looks great! How are you guys handling articulation management with S1?


After getting back into mixing and audio recording after many years, my first interface in 2014 was PreSonus which came with studio one. The fluidity of the user interface is so awesome I upgraded to Pro became committed for life and I didn’t care about any other DAW. Built-in Melodyne, drag and drop everything, amazing mastering section, two clicks to set up a working effects bus, no dongle, 5 installs per license, you name it. When I saw the number of people jumping from ProTools to studio one, I knew I was on the right track. For audio that is. Then in 2016 the MIDI Orchestration bug bit me HARD and I started exploring that world. Self taught music school really. I started hearing about the limitations of Studio One in that realm but I figured it could be made to work. I owned Notion and when the integration between the 2 appeared in one of the FREE Studio One 3.X upgrades, I was stoked. Then I built a new i9 daw last year (specs below) and when I actually started to USE Studio One, that’s when I discovered how lack of true multi core support became a problem. I open Task Manager and the first core gets hammered to 100% then maybe a second core gets triggered, while the rest idle along. For simple libraries like layout libraries or those that aren’t cpu hogs, you can deal with it. Load up a major patch and problems kick right in and you have to start tweaking block size and all that to try and make it work. This request has been on Presonus’s plate for YEARS in their online request area with over 600 people hitting the Plus sign to agree... it’s the #1 request. Yet they release all this other stuff but don’t address that. For Audio or EDM, it’ll work fine, but big VI projects, no go. Then I tried to install Notion on the new DAW. NOPE, incompatible with i9 and Xeon-based processors. No specific plans to fix that because it requires a total rewrite using a new engine (tech support’s own words). There goes my notation capability that I had previously paid full price for. Then I find out that video support is minimal at best, something I didn’t even think about. Next we find out that templates don’t work all that well (with no multicore how would they), but you can use presets which I do like the concept of, I use them in mixing all the time. So I get the heavy duty Synchron Steinway on sale, pop it on the studio one timeline, and Core #1 maxes out and crackles if I hit a series of fast chords. That’s it, I’m done. It’s too much, I need my environment to work. With much regret I cross-graded to Cubase 10 Pro for $332. That night I honestly felt weird, like I broke off an engagement. Over SOFTWARE, but that’s how good the user experience is with Studio One. But now I’m committing to Cubase and everything is working like it should. Task Manager shows 14 cores flying along happily sharing the load. And the amount of MIDI tutorials and videos for Cubase is crazy. What really surprised me was all these “new features” in Cubase 10... I was familiar with all of them since they have been in Studio One for several years, lol! I swore I’d never leave Studio One but I had no choice. I will still use it for audio work and for all audio needs in my church where I’m head sound guy. But for VI Composing, do your research before you try to commit, Cubase is probably a better way to go. Except for the STUPID dependency on a USB dongle that you have to have plugged in. REALLY? IN 2019? And if you lose it you have to buy a license again? Hello 1994, hey, where’s my external RS-232 5-1/4” floppy drive?? Kudos to PreSonus, Berlin, EastWest and NI for their login-based authentication.


----------



## Lukas

PaulieDC said:


> Next we find out that templates don’t work all that well (with no multicore how would they)


Hmm what have templates to do with multi core? Nothing!?


----------



## robgb

Former studio one user here. I thought it was a great DAW, but was constantly having problems with it crashing during launch. Still do. Don't know why. I'm thinking it doesn't like some of my plugins. It seemed to handle big files fine, but it's been a while since I switched to Reaper.


----------



## jbuhler

robgb said:


> Former studio one user here. I thought it was a great DAW, but was constantly having problems with it crashing during launch. Still do. Don't know why. I'm thinking it doesn't like some of my plugins. It seemed to handle big files fine, but it's been a while since I switched to Reaper.


For me, it crashes on close, pretty much every time. Not a big deal, since the file is saved and all. But still a bit curious, since this has been happening for several years, dating back to Studio One 2 (and I've reported it on several occasions). 

Recently and a bit more troublesome, it usually takes 3 or 4 launches for it to get through the start up. Usually, it hangs where it tells me that I have midi devices that I've used in the past but are not currently hooked up. Since the last update, the dialogue box doesn't reliably come up, and then I have to force quit and restart, after two or three further launches, the dialogue box will appear and it will then launch.


----------



## Lukas

@robgb @jbuhler: Have you tried moving certain plugins to find out which plugin is responsible for the crashes on startup / close?


----------



## jbuhler

Lukas said:


> @robgb @jbuhler: Have you tried moving certain plugins to find out which plugin is responsible for the crashes on startup / close?


The crash on close seems related to Kontakt. In any case, it only crashes on close when I have a Kontakt instance in the project, and when I have a Kontakt instance, it will crash on close almost 100% of the time if I have the session open longer than 15 minutes. (And it doesn't seem to matter what libraries I have in Kontakt.) The incomplete load at start seems related to the program not completing the check for MIDI devices that are registered but I don't have connected. I have not yet tried to eliminate all the MIDI devices that I don't have connected to see if I still get the error on launch.


----------



## Lukas

jbuhler said:


> The incomplete load at start seems related to the program not completing the check for MIDI devices that are registered but I don't have connected. I have not yet tried to eliminate all the MIDI devices that I don't have connected to see if I still get the error on launch.


Does the same happen when you reconnect the MIDI devices in the MIDI monitor window (icon at the bottom left)? Sometimes S1 freezes during this reconnect when my M-Audio Axiom Pro lost the USB connection. I'm pretty sure that same USB drivers are buggy and don't respond anymore during the scan which makes S1 freeze.


----------



## PaulieDC

Lukas said:


> Hmm what have templates to do with multi core? Nothing!?


Sorry, meaning if you have a huge template then you’ll potentially be running a lot of instruments which will need to all be loaded and if you use ‘em that doesn’t fly, which is why guys like Jon Wright abandoned that and use instrument presets, only dragging out what you need. Guess I should proofread first, eh?


----------



## DS_Joost

PaulieDC said:


> After getting back into mixing and audio recording after many years, my first interface in 2014 was PreSonus which came with studio one. The fluidity of the user interface is so awesome I upgraded to Pro became committed for life and I didn’t care about any other DAW. Built-in Melodyne, drag and drop everything, amazing mastering section, two clicks to set up a working effects bus, no dongle, 5 installs per license, you name it. When I saw the number of people jumping from ProTools to studio one, I knew I was on the right track. For audio that is. Then in 2016 the MIDI Orchestration bug bit me HARD and I started exploring that world. Self taught music school really. I started hearing about the limitations of Studio One in that realm but I figured it could be made to work. I owned Notion and when the integration between the 2 appeared in one of the FREE Studio One 3.X upgrades, I was stoked. Then I built a new i9 daw last year (specs below) and when I actually started to USE Studio One, that’s when I discovered how lack of true multi core support became a problem. I open Task Manager and the first core gets hammered to 100% then maybe a second core gets triggered, while the rest idle along. For simple libraries like layout libraries or those that aren’t cpu hogs, you can deal with it. Load up a major patch and problems kick right in and you have to start tweaking block size and all that to try and make it work. This request has been on Presonus’s plate for YEARS in their online request area with over 600 people hitting the Plus sign to agree... it’s the #1 request. Yet they release all this other stuff but don’t address that. For Audio or EDM, it’ll work fine, but big VI projects, no go. Then I tried to install Notion on the new DAW. NOPE, incompatible with i9 and Xeon-based processors. No specific plans to fix that because it requires a total rewrite using a new engine (tech support’s own words). There goes my notation capability that I had previously paid full price for. Then I find out that video support is minimal at best, something I didn’t even think about. Next we find out that templates don’t work all that well (with no multicore how would they), but you can use presets which I do like the concept of, I use them in mixing all the time. So I get the heavy duty Synchron Steinway on sale, pop it on the studio one timeline, and Core #1 maxes out and crackles if I hit a series of fast chords. That’s it, I’m done. It’s too much, I need my environment to work. With much regret I cross-graded to Cubase 10 Pro for $332. That night I honestly felt weird, like I broke off an engagement. Over SOFTWARE, but that’s how good the user experience is with Studio One. But now I’m committing to Cubase and everything is working like it should. Task Manager shows 14 cores flying along happily sharing the load. And the amount of MIDI tutorials and videos for Cubase is crazy. What really surprised me was all these “new features” in Cubase 10... I was familiar with all of them since they have been in Studio One for several years, lol! I swore I’d never leave Studio One but I had no choice. I will still use it for audio work and for all audio needs in my church where I’m head sound guy. But for VI Composing, do your research before you try to commit, Cubase is probably a better way to go. Except for the STUPID dependency on a USB dongle that you have to have plugged in. REALLY? IN 2019? And if you lose it you have to buy a license again? Hello 1994, hey, where’s my external RS-232 5-1/4” floppy drive?? Kudos to PreSonus, Berlin, EastWest and NI for their login-based authentication.



This post is absolutely the most honest and helpful here, and I agree with it 100%. This was my exact problem with Studio One, and I'd really urge people to demo the software because of this!


----------



## Lukas

PaulieDC said:


> Sorry, meaning if you have a huge template then you’ll potentially be running a lot of instruments which will need to all be loaded and if you use ‘em that doesn’t fly, which is why guys like Jon Wright abandoned that and use instrument presets, only dragging out what you need. Guess I should proofread first, eh?


Ahh okay - sorry, wasn't meant to sound rude.

But if you have a huge template then you will have 95% of the instruments disabled so they shouln't stress the CPU at all. So CPU is not really the problem, I guess it's rather that the S1 GUI is not optimized for displaying and editing that many tracks.


----------



## DS_Joost

Lukas said:


> Ahh okay - sorry, wasn't meant to sound rude.
> 
> But if you have a huge template then you will have 95% of the instruments disabled so they shouln't stress the CPU at all. So CPU is not really the problem, I guess it's rather that the S1 GUI is not optimized for displaying and editing that many tracks.



You are both correct. Both the CPU usage and the way Studio One craps itself up after an x amount of tracks (even disabled, it doesn't matter) are huge showstoppers for me, and the reason I went back to Cubase. 

Studio One always gets off to a running start. But when it's time to fly, it falls straight to the ground again. It never takes off. That is my analogy for it.


----------



## soundmind

Agree on the CPU usage of Studio One. It definitely has to be addressed and improved upon. However, with the track transform workaround, you can go back and forth from midi to audio with clicking “Preserve Instrument Track State”. I understand that this isn’t the solution with some vi’s that use an enormous amount of CPU out of the gate, but it has been a function that has helped me out with growing track counts due to dense layering of vi’s.


----------



## robgb

jbuhler said:


> Recently and a bit more troublesome, it usually takes 3 or 4 launches for it to get through the start up.


The last time I tried to launch it (a couple weeks ago), it simply would not launch. I must have tried ten times and it would crash while loading. I finally gave up. Maybe this problem has been addressed in Studio One 4, but I'm not going to pay a hundred or so dollars to find out.


----------



## robgb

Lukas said:


> @robgb @jbuhler: Have you tried moving certain plugins to find out which plugin is responsible for the crashes on startup / close?


I could, but it really isn't worth the time and effort for me. I rarely use Studio One anymore.


----------



## samphony

soundmind said:


> Agree on the CPU usage of Studio One. It definitely has to be addressed and improved upon. However, with the track transform workaround, you can go back and forth from midi to audio with clicking “Preserve Instrument Track State”. I understand that this isn’t the solution with some vi’s that use an enormous amount of CPU out of the gate, but it has been a function that has helped me out with growing track counts due to dense layering of vi’s.


Just imagine a bigger project with lots of tracks and lots of scratch pads. Transforming will take ages and it is done track by track not in parallel!


----------



## Jacob Cadmus

I must be one of the few lucky ones to not experience these apparent CPU issues in S1, because it works just fine for me. In all fairness though, I keep my templates pretty modest. Never had to load more than 150 tracks.


----------



## PerryD

Track count looks impressive in this video.


----------



## Sarah Mancuso

jbuhler said:


> The crash on close seems related to Kontakt. In any case, it only crashes on close when I have a Kontakt instance in the project, and when I have a Kontakt instance, it will crash on close almost 100% of the time if I have the session open longer than 15 minutes. (And it doesn't seem to matter what libraries I have in Kontakt.)


That's really odd. I've experienced a very similar problem with Kontakt when closing songs in Reason. I've found as a gross-hack workaround that I can avoid it locking up if I first do a select-all and delete all the instruments, then close the project, making sure not to re-save when I do. I'd assumed it was some sort of unresolved conflict between Reason and Kontakt, or an inexplicable oddity specific to my computer setup, so it's interesting to know it's also happening for some people in Studio One.


----------



## Headlands

This is an interesting conversation. I've been on Cubase for a very long time and I feel like it's ancient in the way it does many things workflow-wise. After having done some work in Studio One, Live, and even Pro Tools, Cubase feels like a bunch of old men who are stuck in their old ways for lots of workflow things and also how it looks -- and I'm not a very young guy myself.  

When I tried Studio One I found that the very advanced MIDI and editing capabilities weren't at the Cubase level, which is the main thing that's kept me from trying it again. This was about 1 1/2 years ago though, so maybe it's gotten better. Also, Cubase's ability to handle gigantic projects is imperative to me for a number of reasons.

But Cubase is often like bashing your head against the wall with so many things that they either refuse to adapt to the modern age with or are stuck in years-old legacy code. It's frustrating and I'm definitely keeping an eye on Studio One. Cubase is great in some ways but it feels so old (because it is), and when I tried Studio One it was like getting a very strong decongestant in certain ways.


----------



## Sean

Headlands said:


> When I tried Studio One I found that the very advanced MIDI and editing capabilities weren't at the Cubase level, which is the main thing that's kept me from trying it again.



I recently tried Studio One Pro from Splice and still found the MIDI to be a bit frustrating to edit but take what I say with a grain of salt as I didn't experiment too much with it. I find Cubase much easier for MIDI editing as well.


----------



## Jacob Cadmus

OK so I did a little experiment to help me gain a bit of insight into S1's CPU debacle. Having originally come from a Windows environment and utilizing multitimbral midi slots per instrument (Kontakt, PLAY, etc.), S1 ran fine with little-to-no issue. Since then I had switched over to Mac and got accustomed to Logic's workflow (optimized for ONE midi slot per instrument). I then replicated my Logic template into S1 (using the AU presets I saved in Logic, mind you), and WOAH... 40% cpu at IDLE. I see it now. Speaking only for S1 and Logic, they're practically opposites in the way they handle VIs. So I started a new template in S1, this time doing multitimbral slots once again - crisis averted.


----------



## jonathanwright

On the surface, MIDI editing in S1 isn’t the best. But setting up Macros to fill in a lot of the gaps makes a huge difference.

Of course it’s not as deep as the Logical Editor in Cubase, but Macro’s can get you 90% of the way there. 

Easy to set up too.


----------



## Lukas

Headlands said:


> When I tried Studio One I found that the very advanced MIDI and editing capabilities weren't at the Cubase level, which is the main thing that's kept me from trying it again.





Sean said:


> I recently tried Studio One Pro from Splice and still found the MIDI to be a bit frustrating to edit


That's very diffuse. Could you please be a bit more concrete and give examples? What exactly do you miss and what exactly is not so good when it comes to MIDI editing?



Jacob Cadmus said:


> OK so I did a little experiment to help me gain a bit of insight into S1's CPU debacle. Having originally come from a Windows environment and utilizing multitimbral midi slots per instrument (Kontakt, PLAY, etc.), S1 ran fine with little-to-no issue. Since then I had switched over to Mac and got accustomed to Logic's workflow (optimized for ONE midi slot per instrument). I then replicated my Logic template into S1 (using the AU presets I saved in Logic, mind you), and WOAH... 40% cpu at IDLE. I see it now. Speaking only for S1 and Logic, they're practically opposites in the way they handle VIs.


To compare the performances you have to tell us how you did it. Windows or Mac? Dropout protection properly set? Which settings? Which plugins? "40% CPU at IDLE". Where do you know? Task manager? The task manager displays are not meaningful so any comparison only task manager is be useless (everyone is doing it anyway... that's why there are so many stupid reports in forums that argue that one single plugin (DIVA, KONTAKT etc.) uses sooo much more CPU in DAW X than in DAW Y...).

If you really want to compare the performance of two DAWs you have to try out how many instances of plugins you can insert until you get dropouts.


----------



## Jacob Cadmus

Lukas said:


> To compare the performances you have to tell us how you did it. Windows or Mac? Dropout protection properly set? Which settings? Which plugins? "40% CPU at IDLE". Where do you know? Task manager? The task manager displays are not meaningful so any comparison only task manager is be useless (everyone is doing it anyway... that's why there are so many stupid reports in forums that argue that one single plugin (DIVA, KONTAKT etc.) uses sooo much more CPU in DAW X than in DAW Y...).
> 
> If you really want to compare the performance of two DAWs you have to try out how many instances of plugins you can insert until you get dropouts.



Did you read my post? I'm pretty sure I've covered all those bases. I think you misunderstand my stance on S1; I'm not trying to bash it, in fact I prefer S1 over Logic and plan to do a full switcheroo. 

But to answer your questions; I've tested S1 on both platforms, with dropout protection on MAX. I'm fully aware that it performs marginally better on Windows, and I've analyzed both system and DAW monitors. In Mac land, I made an apples-to-apples replica of my Logic template in S1, and I can attest that S1 does not handle high instrument counts as well as Logic does. HOWEVER, the workaround in S1 is that utilizing multitimbral outs per instrument reduces the need for high instrument counts, and performs significantly better that way; Logic on the other hand falls apart when going multitimbral. In the end of it all, I prefer the multitimbral method that S1 excels at, plus it's much more RAM-friendly than Logic. I hope that clears things up a bit.


----------



## jbuhler

Lukas said:


> That's very diffuse. Could you please be a bit more concrete and give examples? What exactly do you miss and what exactly is not so good when it comes to MIDI editing?


I haven't been using Studio One the past few months, because I've been working on a bigger project. But here are some things I remember irritating me: The piano roll randomly resizes the zoom when moving about. When it does, it often forgets the saved zoom setting. The CC lanes that are visible change, again seemingly at random. It takes a lot of clicks to open anything other than the default lanes and I've never found a good way to create my own defaults. You can't open two piano roll windows at the same time; or if you can I haven't been able to figure out how to do it. (I do like the flexibility of the piano roll design Studio One has though, which allows easy navigation and overlay of many parts.) It has no articulation support. Because Studio One works best with multi-timbral output, you have to manually locate the instrument in the instance of Kontakt that houses it if you need to see the GUI. I also have persistent problems with Studio One failing on start up and crashing on close. Its manual is completely deficient.

That said, I like Studio One, and use it on my smaller projects. The sketch pad is a marvel that I wish other DAWs would emulate. I very much prefer the way its arranger works for moving around sections compared to the way, say, Logic does it.


----------



## Sean

Lukas said:


> That's very diffuse. Could you please be a bit more concrete and give examples? What exactly do you miss and what exactly is not so good when it comes to MIDI editing?



Sorry for being rather vague but it was a few weeks ago and honestly I don't remember exactly what the issues were, just that they were enough to put me off S1. It wasn't really a lack of functionality, it was just the workflow for midi editing felt awkward to me compared to Cubase or Reaper.


----------



## samphony

jonathanwright said:


> On the surface, MIDI editing in S1 isn’t the best. But setting up Macros to fill in a lot of the gaps makes a huge difference.



Do you have a Macro that lets you Split Events without shorten notes at the split point? In S1 you have to change to the split tool and hold option to circumvent that.


----------



## Lukas

Jacob Cadmus said:


> Did you read my post?


Yes. Okay, you mentioned that you did this on MacOS. But you didn't say where your 40% cpu value comes from. If it's just activity monitor then it doesn't say anything.



Jacob Cadmus said:


> and I can attest that S1 does not handle high instrument counts as well as Logic does. HOWEVER, the workaround in S1 is that utilizing multitimbral outs per instrument reduces the need for high instrument counts, and performs significantly better that way; Logic on the other hand falls apart when going multitimbral.


Where do you know that S1 doesn't handle them as well as Logic? What makes you say that? Without knowing what exactly behaved different this experiment / result is pointless. Did you try how many Kontakt / Diva / etc. instruments you can load / play at the same time until you get cpu spikes / dropouts? Or how do you know which one "performs better"?

Don't get me wrong, I just want to have fair conditions for a comparison and not just some OS activity meter values that don't mean anything.

@jbuhler: Thanks for going into details.



jbuhler said:


> The piano roll randomly resizes the zoom when moving about. When it does, it often forgets the saved zoom setting.


The piano roll editor saves the zoom per track. That means you can set your perfect zoom level for the strings than switch to your drum pattern and set another zoom, then go back to the string track and you will see that the string zoom is recalled. Maybe that's what happened in your example...?



jbuhler said:


> The CC lanes that are visible change, again seemingly at random. It takes a lot of clicks to open anything other than the default lanes and I've never found a good way to create my own defaults.


The same here. The visible automation is saved for each track. Which is pretty clear because every instrument which is assigned to one track offers a different set of automation. That's why this can't be global (apart from velocity, pitchbend and aftertouch which are always available).



jbuhler said:


> You can't open two piano roll windows at the same time; or if you can I haven't been able to figure out how to do it.


Yeah, that's true. There's only one instance of the Music Editor in Studio One.



jbuhler said:


> Because Studio One works best with multi-timbral output


I can't really confirm that. I stopped using multitimbral templates in 2012 so I've been using single instrument instances for each track (Kontakt, Omnisphere, HALion Sonic, Stylus, VSL) and never had any problems with that approach. And my studio computer is still from 2011.

Concerning articulation support: Yes, that's one of the things that are very high on my TOP 10 list for S1 MIDI editing enhancements.


----------



## Jacob Cadmus

@Lukas - fair enough, I'll provide a little more context. I ran two tests between Logic and S1: first test being a one-track-per-instance setup that I built in Logic, 150 tracks/instances from a combination of Kontakt and PLAY, with various libraries loaded (too many to name). CPU meters in Logic are barely moving. Might I also add that I installed the MenuMeters app in my Menu Bar - all 8 of my cores barely moving. I then saved every track as AU presets and reloaded them into Studio One. Dropout protection set to MAX. CPU performance in S1 reads 40%. The performance meters of each instrument show some very slight movement, but collectively add up to 40%. All cores in the menu bar firing up almost halfway. 

Test #2: a multi-timbral template built in Studio One. Roughly 100 tracks, only 10 instances of Kontakt and PLAY being used. CPU performance in S1 reads between 9 and 15%. All cores on menu bar barely moving. I then saved those presets and reloaded them in Logic. CPU spikes on first core! WTF.

I can't make any generalizations here, and I'll run some stress tests next to be sure. But so far the main takeaway here is that the workflow of these two DAWs seems to be a give-and-take. Logic = single track/instance workflow; Studio One = multi-timbral. I can make a video of this if need be.

Also, my hardware specs are 2012 i7 Ivy Bridge, 32 gb ram, Samsung Evo 860 SSDs.


----------



## jbuhler

Lukas said:


> The piano roll editor saves the zoom per track. That means you can set your perfect zoom level for the strings than switch to your drum pattern and set another zoom, then go back to the string track and you will see that the string zoom is recalled. Maybe that's what happened in your example...?


This is good to know and I hadn't realized zoom worked quite like this in moving track to track, but no this isn't the issue I have. My issue is the piano roll rezooming while I'm moving about editing the midi in a track, and suddenly I'm staring at giant notes (zoomed all the way in) or tiny notes (zoomed all the way out). And when it happens, the saved zoom also changes so my only recourse is to resize manually, which needless to say is a pain.



> The same here. The visible automation is saved for each track. Which is pretty clear because every instrument which is assigned to one track offers a different set of automation. That's why this can't be global (apart from velocity, pitchbend and aftertouch which are always available).


I did know this and it's not quite the problem I'm having. Rather when I move to a different track in the main window and then come back, the visible CC lanes/velocity have changed. And it's not that it retains the order of the track I was just looking at. It just goes to some kind of default. (It doesn't happen all the time.) I also don't know an easy way to recall the configuration to get the lanes back other than to reselect them with clicks. Also there clearly could be global automation lane presets if Presonus wanted to institute them. An instrument may not use them, but what does it matter if there is an unused CC11 lane? How is that any different than an unused pitchbend lane? And the process of adding a CC lane is convoluted, requiring pop-up box and several clicks. 



> I can't really confirm that. I stopped using multitimbral templates in 2012 so I've been using single instrument instances for each track (Kontakt, Omnisphere, HALion Sonic, Stylus, VSL) and never had any problems with that approach. And my studio computer is still from 2011.


The instrument plug-in window is organized by tabs, so the more instances of Kontakt or other instruments you have the more tabs you have, and once you go over about eight, the tabs become far less useless, and it also seems to take longer to save with more instances, though I've never taken out a stopwatch... I will say that I've never had a CPU issue with Studio One with large track counts. It's always been a visual organizational thing that keeps me from going above about 50 virtual instrument tracks.


----------



## samphony

Hopefully S1 will gain screen sets in version 5 or later. Also keep in mind regarding cpu on idle Logic uses dynamic plugin processing whereas S1 doesn’t. 

Meaning Logic won’t adress full cpu cycles if no audio or midi is present under the playhead. 

On the other hand depending on libraries you use Logic might struggle with playing live spiking on one core whereas S1 doesn’t.


----------



## Lukas

jbuhler said:


> This is good to know and I hadn't realized zoom worked quite like this in moving track to track, but no this isn't the issue I have. My issue is the piano roll rezooming while I'm moving about editing the midi in a track, and suddenly I'm staring at giant notes (zoomed all the way in) or tiny notes (zoomed all the way out). And when it happens, the saved zoom also changes so my only recourse is to resize manually, which needless to say is a pain.


Sounds very strange. I've never seen this behaviour. Maybe you double-clicked you event in the arrangement while holding alt/option? This would fire the "zoom to fit" command which zooms the instrument part so that you see the whole event in the editor.



jbuhler said:


> but what does it matter if there is an unused CC11 lane? How is that any different than an unused pitchbend lane? And the process of adding a CC lane is convoluted, requiring pop-up box and several clicks.


When you load different instruments and look at the automation parameters they offer you will see that they differ from instrument to instrument. For example Presence XT offers Sustain, Breath Control, Expression and a custom set of parameters categorized into plugin sections (Filter, LFO 1, LFO2, Amp Env etc.) or scripting parameters. Omnisphere offers Program Change, the default 128 MIDI CCs by exposes custom parameters (like Master Filter) when you enable Host Automation for a specific parameter.

Because every plugin supports a individual set of automation parameters (and they can also change while being loaded) you can't have a global controller set for all instruments.

I tried to reproduce the behaviour you described (visible automation parameters change when switching tracks) but wasn't able to make it happen.



jbuhler said:


> The instrument plug-in window is organized by tabs, so the more instances of Kontakt or other instruments you have the more tabs you have, and once you go over about eight, the tabs become far less useless, and it also seems to take longer to save with more instances, though I've never taken out a stopwatch... I will say that I've never had a CPU issue with Studio One with large track counts. It's always been a visual organizational thing that keeps me from going above about 50 virtual instrument tracks.


That's interesting. I never used the tabs to navigate through different Kontakt instances. I always use the "Instrument Editor" button in the arrangement to show the plugin windows for a certain track.


----------



## chocobitz825

Lukas said:


> That's interesting. I never used the tabs to navigate through different Kontakt instances. I always use the "Instrument Editor" button in the arrangement to show the plugin windows for a certain track.



When you exceed the tabs visual limit you can just click the menu button at the end of tabs lane and select the one you want in the menu as well.


----------



## Lukas

...which is not that helpful if you have 20 instruments called Kontakt 5 10, Kontakt 5 11, Kontakt 5 12, Kontakt 5 13 and so on...  That's why I prefer calling them from my tracks which have more meaningful names.


----------



## jbuhler

Lukas said:


> ...which is not that helpful if you have 20 instruments called Kontakt 5 10, Kontakt 5 11, Kontakt 5 12, Kontakt 5 13 and so on...  That's why I prefer calling them from my tracks which have more meaningful names.


You can name them.


----------



## Lukas

I know. I wrote a script to name them automatically by their track names according to the "Apply Track Names to Mixer Channels" function.


----------



## InLight-Tone

Lukas said:


> I know. I wrote a script to name them automatically by their track names according to the "Apply Track Names to Mixer Channels" function.


Can you share how that works?


----------



## Lukas

I can't share that right now, sorry.


----------



## ThomasL

samphony said:


> Hopefully S1 will gain screen sets in version 5 or later.


S1 has "screen sets", sort of. Works for me.


----------



## Lukas

I think he meant screen sets rather as a function to save and recall different window states (visibility, collapsed or expanded) and positions on the screen. The scenes are more for showing/hiding groups of channels and tracks.


----------



## neblix

It really is understated how powerful the "Import Song Data" feature in Studio One. You can import entire chunks of other projects (or if you're clever, a "source" project template) complete with bus routings and fx chains.

For example I can start an empty project to doodle whatever, then decide I want to get my finely tuned and pre-mixed Chamber Strings setup in here. Using this feature I can just pull the whole group of tracks right out of the source project in seconds.


----------



## chocobitz825

neblix said:


> It really is understated how powerful the "Import Song Data" feature in Studio One. You can import entire chunks of other projects (or if you're clever, a "source" project template) complete with bus routings and fx chains.
> 
> For example I can start an empty project to doodle whatever, then decide I want to get my finely tuned and pre-mixed Chamber Strings setup in here. Using this feature I can just pull the whole group of tracks right out of the source project in seconds.



agreed...while ill admit that auto-save gets long when you have big projects, its a small trade off given how versatile the overall system is. Its of course not perfect, but you get out of it what you put into it. There are so many various ways to customize and automate what you want to do. Import song data, templates and presets for pretty much everything. It's an underestimated DAW, and even better now that it has better export options for use with pro tools


----------



## ThomasL

Lukas said:


> I think he meant screen sets rather as a function to save and recall different window states (visibility, collapsed or expanded) and positions on the screen. The scenes are more for showing/hiding groups of channels and tracks.


Yeah I know, but it was the only thing I used screen sets in Logic for, showing/hiding tracks


----------



## samphony

I meant screen layouts not showing hiding tracks. I like how Nuendo and Cubase deal with that. What you are showing is called scenes. And only 5 of them can be recalled with key commands.


----------



## Miklós Vigh

jbuhler said:


> I did know this and it's not quite the problem I'm having. Rather when I move to a different track in the main window and then come back, the visible CC lanes/velocity have changed. And it's not that it retains the order of the track I was just looking at. It just goes to some kind of default. (It doesn't happen all the time.) I also don't know an easy way to recall the configuration to get the lanes back other than to reselect them with clicks. Also there clearly could be global automation lane presets if Presonus wanted to institute them. An instrument may not use them, but what does it matter if there is an unused CC11 lane? How is that any different than an unused pitchbend lane? And the process of adding a CC lane is convoluted, requiring pop-up box and several clicks.



I'm fairly new to the S1 but I experience the same issue here...

Correct me if I'm wrong but you are referring to *the* *problem related to the configuration of the Event Automation Lanes (Lane) within a given Instrument Part in the Edit Window*, I believe.

By default for each Lane S1 offers Velocity, Modulation, Pitch Bend, After Touch as Parameters. Based on your needs and the offered Parameters by the assigned Instrument (via the Instrument Track) to be automated, you can add additional Parameters to the Lanes. In order to view/edit multiple Parameters at once you need to create multiple instances of Lanes and select the relevant Parameter for each Lane separately.






*Issue:* for whatever reason, whatever you set up, S1 does not persist correctly the selected state of the Parameters in the Lanes. Whenever you e.g. add a new Instrument Track or even sometimes just change the selection of an Instrument Part/Instrument Track, S1 falls back some default Parameter selection across all the Instrument Tracks i.e. you can start the selection exercise from the scratch.

Do I miss something?


----------



## Lukas

Fanarik said:


> Do I miss something?


The main question is: When does this happen and what did you do to make it happen? Did you change the instrument of one track, did you duplicate a track or what exactly did you do?

I never had problems like that nor have heard of it. But if there are issues I'm very interested in the steps that are needed to reproduce it. Or a video that shows it. I just tried to make it happen by replacing instruments but all controllers/parameters that I had added to the controller lane stayed where they are (even if there were parameters that the new instrument doesn't have at all).


----------



## Miklós Vigh

Lukas said:


> The main question is: When does this happen and what did you do to make it happen? Did you change the instrument of one track, did you duplicate a track or what exactly did you do?
> 
> I never had problems like that nor have heard of it. But if there are issues I'm very interested in the steps that are needed to reproduce it. Or a video that shows it. I just tried to make it happen by replacing instruments but all controllers/parameters that I had added to the controller lane stayed where they are (even if there were parameters that the new instrument doesn't have at all).



Quick and dirty:

4 Instrument Tracks, Kontakt 5 instances have assigned
Each Kontakt 5 runs a CSSS patch (Violin I., Violin II., Viola, Cello)
Besides the default parameters the Sustain Pedal OnOff, Control 58 are added to the Lanes
S1 v4.1.4.51719
macOS Mojave, v10.14.4



I hope it helps.


----------



## jonathanwright

Fanarik said:


> *Issue:* for whatever reason, whatever you set up, S1 does not persist correctly the selected state of the Parameters in the Lanes. Whenever you e.g. add a new Instrument Track or even sometimes just change the selection of an Instrument Part/Instrument Track, S1 falls back some default Parameter selection across all the Instrument Tracks i.e. you can start the selection exercise from the scratch.
> 
> Do I miss something?



If you add a new CC parameter part way into a project, only the track you've added it to will automatically display that CC lane. Other tracks will still display the default set without your new parameter.


----------



## Lukas

@Fanarik: What you show in the video is totally correct behaviour: Each automation lane will show you the same parameter for every track. Maybe you have overseen that in one track you added Control 58 and Sustain Pedal in the opposite order. That's why the selected tab will be different.

If you look at it again you will see that it recalls the exact parameter that you've selected. In track 1 (Violin I) you've added Control 58 before Sustain Pedal. So if you remove and re-add Control 58 to bring it into the same order as the other tracks it will behave as you want


----------



## Miklós Vigh

Tested again, so the newly added parameters are not inherited across the tracks and the order adding them eventually defines if I can maintain the visual consistency of the lanes and the respective parameters across the tracks.

@Lukas and @jonathanwright thanks for the clarification!


----------



## jbuhler

Lukas said:


> @Fanarik: What you show in the video is totally correct behaviour: Each automation lane will show you the same parameter for every track. Maybe you have overseen that in one track you added Control 58 and Sustain Pedal in the opposite order. That's why the selected tab will be different.
> 
> If you look at it again you will see that it recalls the exact parameter that you've selected. In track 1 (Violin I) you've added Control 58 before Sustain Pedal. So if you remove and re-add Control 58 to bring it into the same order as the other tracks it will behave as you want


I have a similar issue and it's a hard issue to isolate because I only notice it after it's happened and I've never been able to determine a sequence to trigger it. Some of it might indeed be due to the fact that S1 remembers the set up for each track and I've forgotten that I had that track set up differently, but sometimes S1 does seem to revert to something like a default state, because I had just been working on that track and the automation lanes suddenly aren't at all what I was just using. And often the aftertouch lane is open even though I never use it.

Does anyone else have a problem with S1 hanging on quit? I've been having this issue since S1 3, and it's gotten worse with version 4. If I work on a S1 project for more than 15 minutes, it will hang on close 99% of the time. I can force quit it and the file is saved and all, but it's still disconcerting, and I've no luck with Presonus help on the issue. (Admittedly, I haven't gone back to them about it after several failed attempts to fix it with version 3.)


----------



## Lukas

Fanarik said:


> Tested again, so the newly added parameters are not inherited across the tracks


Of course not. Because basically each track (= instrument) may have a totally different set of available parameters. If I have one track with a NI FM8 and you add one parameter for FM Operator offset, whould should that be available on a track with KONTAKT 5? 

We must not forget that not everything in S1 is MIDI which means that most plugin parameters we see in the automation lanes (like cutoff in Mai Tai) are not MIDI CCs but rather rather real host automation (a distinct connection to one plugin parameter).

@jbuhler:


jbuhler said:


> And often the aftertouch lane is open even though I never use it.


Not often... it is *always* open because it's part of the basic parameters (Velocity, Pitchband, Modwheel and After Touch) which can't be removed.



jbuhler said:


> Does anyone else have a problem with S1 hanging on quit?


Only if there's a buggy plugin involved which hangs during quit and won't respond anymore. So you mean S1 will never quit and it's not a crash with a system message and a resulting crash log?


----------



## Miklós Vigh

Lukas said:


> Of course not. Because basically each track (= instrument) may have a totally different set of available parameters. If I have one track with a NI FM8 and you add one parameter for FM Operator offset, whould should that be available on a track with KONTAKT 5?
> 
> We must not forget that not everything in S1 is MIDI which means that most plugin parameters we see in the automation lanes (like cutoff in Mai Tai) are not MIDI CC but real host automation.



Ok, understood  then one more question: is there a way to maintain different number of lanes across the instrument parts which are not on the same track? As you correctly said the actual instruments might be different and need a different number of parameters to be adjusted.


----------



## Lukas

Yes, you could "Duplicate (complete)" the track including the instrument (right-click on the track). So the plugin and the automation will be duplicated as well.


----------



## jbuhler

Lukas said:


> Not often... it is *always* open because it's part of the basic parameters (Velocity, Pitchband, Modwheel and After Touch) which can't be removed.


By “open,” I mean visible in the automation lane even though that lane had been set to display CC21, say. Sometimes the lanes seem to revert to the initial state, like S1 can’t find the settings for the track. 



> Only if there's a buggy plugin involved which hangs during quit and won't respond anymore. So you mean S1 will never quit and it's not a crash with a system message and a resulting crash log?


The only commonality I’ve found is projects that use Kontakt hang on close. And by hang I mean I can leave it closing for an hour and it’s still there until I force quit. So no not a crash. With S1 I usually use the VST version of Kontakt with 16 outs.


----------



## Miklós Vigh

Lukas said:


> Yes, you could "Duplicate (complete)" the track including the instrument (right-click on the track). So the plugin and the automation will be duplicated as well.



Ok, I might be misunderstood so let me rephrase my question:

If Part A1 on Track A with Plugin 1 has 5 parameters and Part B2 on Track B with Plugin 2 has only 2 parameters then can I have 5 Lanes on Part A1 and 2 Lanes on Part B2?

I have tried the "Duplicate (complete)" but the end result is always the same number of lanes on all parts in the project regardless of its track...

P.S.: kudos to you guys for helping me with such fundamental topics, I have never thought that I will find such vibrant, knowledgable and helpful community here!


----------



## Phillip Dixon

just got mail from presonus
big annoncement on tuesday 21st may
live web cast.. latest inovation.based on users feedback.......so they say


----------



## rrichard63

jbuhler said:


> Does anyone else have a problem with S1 hanging on quit? I've been having this issue since S1 3


Yes. As far as I know this is not at all rare. Since it always seems to save my work and close all its windows before issuing the standard Windows "this program has stopped responding" message, I have always assumed that the problem is basically cosmetic, and that this is why Presonus doesn't bother to fix it.


----------



## Lukas

Fanarik said:


> If Part A1 on Track A with Plugin 1 has 5 parameters and Part B2 on Track B with Plugin 2 has only 2 parameters then can I have 5 Lanes on Part A1 and 2 Lanes on Part B2?
> 
> I have tried the "Duplicate (complete)" but the end result is always the same number of lanes on all parts in the project regardless of its track...


Yeah, sorry, I did not get that. What you want is currently not possible in S1. The exact lanes configuration won't be saved and recalled for each track. So if you have five visible lanes this will be the same for each track.

But I think that's a good feature request. Maybe you have a Sample Modelling instrument on one track which needs many different MIDI CCs ... but when editing (VSTi) drums you only need to see velocity.

Not that easy to say what should happen if there are multiple parts from several tracks opened in the editor. Hard to save that state. It's a bit like the editor zoom which is stored per track since Studio One 4. What this setting is gone as soon as you do multi track note editing.


----------



## Miklós Vigh

Lukas said:


> Yeah, sorry, I did not get that. What you want is currently not possible in S1. The exact lanes configuration won't be saved and recalled for each track. So if you have five visible lanes this will be the same for each track.



Thanks Lukas.


----------



## Genki

Phillip Dixon said:


> just got mail from presonus
> big annoncement on tuesday 21st may
> live web cast.. latest inovation.based on users feedback.......so they say



Yeah..hopefully they will finally add NKS integration...


----------



## Lukas

...which is not really an inovation though


----------



## Arise

Lukas said:


> ...which is not really an inovation though


 I don't recall Presonus mentioning "innovation" but it will be something to do with their biggest user requests. And for several years now the most voted request has been NKS integration. As well as CPU improvements.


----------



## petec

jbuhler said:


> Does anyone else have a problem with S1 hanging on quit? I've been having this issue since S1 3, and it's gotten worse with version 4. If I work on a S1 project for more than 15 minutes, it will hang on close 99% of the time. I can force quit it and the file is saved and all, but it's still disconcerting...



Disconcerting is somewhat of an understatement. Similarly my setup (orchestral) locks up on close almost every save. I don't have many tracks at all with the projects I'm working with. I've tried removing/deleting tracks in the mixer that I'm no longer using, eg Kontakt instances. Unfortunately windows Task Manager is my only method of shut down in these instances.

Sorry but I don't, as yet, have an answer to this. But like you, we persevere and hope someone at Presonus notices. Now I have to say that I really like using Studio 1 for my orchestral projects, and have found the software to be superb. It's just that the niggles bite.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Phillip Dixon said:


> just got mail from presonus
> big annoncement on tuesday 21st may
> live web cast.. latest inovation.based on users feedback.......so they say




4.5


----------



## rrichard63

I didn't notice anything about expression maps. But I might have missed it. On the other hand, the references to improved CPU management and track groups are probably relevant to this thread.


----------



## Ryan99

I watched this video. Great improvements on cpu, midi, mix, etc.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Ryan99 said:


> I watched this video. Great improvements on cpu, midi, mix, etc.



MIDI seemed weak, at least in this vid.


----------



## axb312

Another Zzz update for me...


----------



## DS_Joost

axb312 said:


> Another Zzz update for me...



Another huge update for me. Performance improvements sound great. Mixer improvements, video export. Remove unused tracks. Disable all. Macro toolbars get turbocharged.

This may not be obvious to everyone but what is happening here is good. Studio One brings heat into a DAW segment (the all-in-one DAW) that's been dormant for too long. They bring competition, and competition leads to faster development and exciting times for us all! So as a primary Cubase user, I say: go Presonus!


----------



## Phillip Dixon

totally agree and looking foward to official launch tommorow....there may be more in depth, than the leaked studio one expert vid...


----------



## chocobitz825

way better than the pro tools update..


----------



## axb312

DS_Joost said:


> Another huge update for me. Performance improvements sound great. Mixer improvements, video export. Remove unused tracks. Disable all. Macro toolbars get turbocharged.
> 
> This may not be obvious to everyone but what is happening here is good. Studio One brings heat into a DAW segment (the all-in-one DAW) that's been dormant for too long. They bring competition, and competition leads to faster development and exciting times for us all! So as a primary Cubase user, I say: go Presonus!



It's a step up no doubt. Just frustrated that one of the top feature requests, articulation management has not been implemented since 2015. Also looks like they took the video down....


----------



## Lukas

axb312 said:


> Also looks like they took the video down....


Of course they did. It came two days early.


----------



## Genki

Here is the list of things added in text form:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/presonus-studio-one/1265518-studio-one-4-5-a.html#post13992041

The CPU improvement is probably the most exciting change I see on there, otherwise a solid update but nothing too exciting imo


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

axb312 said:


> It's a step up no doubt. Just frustrated that one of the top feature requests, articulation management has not been implemented since 2015. Also looks like they took the video down....



S1 fanboy, but Articulation Management has been a sticking point for me.

Currently straddling 2 DAWs - workable.

I will definitely check out the update - the CPU improvement has my attention.


----------



## Miklós Vigh

Lukas said:


> Of course they did. It came two days early.



Seems to be still available:


----------



## Lukas

No.


----------



## Lukas

So here is 4.5 with many new MIDI / note editing features, a new video export function (whole video or only a range), a plugin manager (which addresses many issues Studio One users had with crashing 3rd party plugins) many CPU improvements.

Since I could not find a video about the new note editing stuff in 4.5 maybe some are interested in seeing all of them in action. I made a tutorial video... which is in german... but you can mute the sound and just see what's going on in the video


----------



## Lukas

By the way for us "template guys" there is another nice improvement in 4.5: When you save an instrument preset (like "8dio Claire Flute General Arts") we now can select your existing preset folders out of a dropdown list (like "Woodwinds" -> "Flutes") in which the new preset should be stored. In the older versions you had to type the full folder path manually...


----------



## jbuhler

jbuhler said:


> I have a similar issue and it's a hard issue to isolate because I only notice it after it's happened and I've never been able to determine a sequence to trigger it. Some of it might indeed be due to the fact that S1 remembers the set up for each track and I've forgotten that I had that track set up differently, but sometimes S1 does seem to revert to something like a default state, because I had just been working on that track and the automation lanes suddenly aren't at all what I was just using. And often the aftertouch lane is open even though I never use it.


I've been working in S1 again and continue to have this behavior. Here are two tracks set up with modulation, expression and velocity, but as soon as I jump out of that instrument, it changes, which is expected. But then it does not revert back when I come back to the instrument and I see no way to set the lanes. So how do I set this up so that every time I come back to the instrument the correct automation lanes appear? (Note that the video just toggles back and forth between two tracks.)


----------



## Dewdman42

let me ask you guys a question...about articulation management in S1..

I have been prototyping a homegrown articulation management system that would basically run as a VST plugin and provide keyswitching from automation. Is that something that would give you what you need in S1 unless/until PreSonus builds something into S1 itself?


----------



## chocobitz825

jbuhler said:


> I've been working in S1 again and continue to have this behavior. Here are two tracks set up with modulation, expression and velocity, but as soon as I jump out of that instrument, it changes, which is expected. But then it does not revert back when I come back to the instrument and I see no way to set the lanes. So how do I set this up so that every time I come back to the instrument the correct automation lanes appear? (Note that the video just toggles back and forth between two tracks.)




Odd, I cant replicate that. are you on 4.5.1?


----------



## chocobitz825

Dewdman42 said:


> let me ask you guys a question...about articulation management in S1..
> 
> I have been prototyping a homegrown articulation management system that would basically run as a VST plugin and provide keyswitching from automation. Is that something that would give you what you need in S1 unless/until PreSonus builds something into S1 itself?



That'd be great. All i have now is a macro that automatically creates articulation notes, but its a bit of a task setting up the various articulations per library.


----------



## Dewdman42

Some macros like that still might be useful. I just barely acquired S1, so I have yet to get into the macro capabilities. The thing I am working on could use midi events or automation to drive the selection of complicated or simple key switching and/or channelizing, and some other nice features related to typical articulation handling. So you could use automation to drive it, or you could use, for example, PC events to drive it, or other types of midi events to drive it...and you could still potentially use macros to make it quick and easy to assign these automation or midi events to the right place in some simple manner. I don't know the macro environment well enough yet to know what is possible there.

What i have now is not even close to being fit for public consumption yet, but I am slowly working on it and eventually it will be. Just wondering if something like this would suddenly make S1 much more articulation friendly? 

DP has a similar issue, no articulation management, yet still even some important hollywood guys still swear by DP and they get by without articulation management. I think what I'm workin on would help them too. I even think some Logic and Cubase people might use it due to oddities with the solutions there, but we shall see. If I perceive there is a big enough demand here I might spend more time on it then I have been.


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## chocobitz825

Dewdman42 said:


> Some macros like that still might be useful. I just barely acquired S1, so I have yet to get into the macro capabilities. The thing I am working on could use midi events or automation to drive the selection of complicated or simple key switching and/or channelizing, and some other nice features related to typical articulation handling. So you could use automation to drive it, or you could use, for example, PC events to drive it, or other types of midi events to drive it...and you could still potentially use macros to make it quick and easy to assign these automation or midi events to the right place in some simple manner. I don't know the macro environment well enough yet to know what is possible there.
> 
> What i have now is not even close to being fit for public consumption yet, but I am slowly working on it and eventually it will be. Just wondering if something like this would suddenly make S1 much more articulation friendly?
> 
> DP has a similar issue, no articulation management, yet still even some important hollywood guys still swear by DP and they get by without articulation management. I think what I'm workin on would help them too. I even think some Logic and Cubase people might use it due to oddities with the solutions there, but we shall see. If I perceive there is a big enough demand here I might spend more time on it then I have been.



I think keyboard maestro does something similar but i haven’t even begun to touch it. I honestly don’t know where to start. If there was a good vst alternative, I’d love it. 

If you’d like to try out the macro I can share it. 

I have some set up for CSS, Spitfire Studio Strings, 8DIO century, anthology, and initiate strings, and some guitar instruments as well. Working on a bunch of others still.


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## Dewdman42

don't have any of those so it won't really be of any use, but just curious what approach you took generally speaking.

keyboard Maestro would not be able to do what my VST will do as a VST plugin sits in the midi stream and articulates the midi stream. Keyboard Maestro adds another dimension to what can be done with your macros though...it provides I believe a little more access to GUI elements and ways to loop around through things on the GUI, etc.. 

S1 also has an undocumented javascript engine that can be used to do everything Macros can do, plus a little more ability to make loops and things like that. I am just now learning about that also, so I can't really say more, but its undocumented and I wouldn't rely on it.


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## chocobitz825

the method is a combination of events.

It copies the note that is intended to start the new articulation
It then transposes the note to the keyswitch location (you set it in the transpose functions to transpose to, for example, C0.)
It sets the length of the note to 1/16
It humanizes the notes position back 0.00.50 (just ahead of the original note position)
and then copies the original Note back to its original position leaving two note. the original note, and the newly created keyswitch note (slightly pushed ahead of the note to trigger properly.)







The main hassle is just creating each keyswitch where you have to adjust the transpose note position and name it. Then setting up the menu structure. its time consuming, but so far effective.


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## Dewdman42

right. The undocumented javascript stuff would provide a place to make an actual GUI, but good luck figuring that out. Also the javascript stuff can read text files, so it would be possible to make JASON or XML files to drive the process if you were to use the javascript approach in S1 rather then Macros. But..unsupported by PreSonus.

Is it possible with the macros to do what you are doing but place the keyswitch itself on another track? Would it be possible to have the macro place PC messages instead of the direct keyswitches? Can macros be used to create automation points?


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## chocobitz825

Dewdman42 said:


> right. The undocumented javascript stuff would provide a place to make an actual GUI, but good luck figuring that out. Also the javascript stuff can read text files, so it would be possible to make JASON or XML files to drive the process if you were to use the javascript approach in S1 rather then Macros. But..unsupported by PreSonus.
> 
> Is it possible with the macros to do what you are doing but place the keyswitch itself on another track? Would it be possible to have the macro place PC messages instead of the direct keyswitches? Can macros be used to create automation points?



I’m still trying to sort that out. It seems like cc automaton is limited via macro. I don’t think there’s a way to set a target track either but I’ll dig a bit more.


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## Dewdman42

can be done with the undocumented javascript I know that much.


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## jbuhler

chocobitz825 said:


> Odd, I cant replicate that. are you on 4.5.1?


Yes, 4.5.1. But it started as an older project. I went back and set up a new project from scratch and it mostly works if I do it from there. (I say mostly, because it goes back to default arrangement for all instruments if I visit an instrument that hasn't had automation lanes manually added. That doesn't strike me as the way it is supposed to work—ETA: that is, I can't see any particular advantage to this behavior—returning to the default set-up—rather than having lanes default to the previous state of that instrument when it was last edited.)


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## Lukas

Edit / insert automation points in the music editor is not possible via macros. Insert notes is possible by using the new Fill with notes command (fixed pitch range with min = max). Of course the insert range is pretty limited as you can only fill the whole part, a particular range or between selected notes. Insert program changes is not possible via macros.

All these things could be done in JavaScript (if you know how) but there's no official way to do this so.... only for experimenting and on your own risk 

Making a custom MIDI VST for easier articulation management sounds like a cool project. But in my opinion everything that is not deeply connected to the editor and capable of reading instrument and track meta data is not that useful when working with many different instruments / articulation. Nice for some tests but not really helpful in practice. I recommend to wait for a clean and powerful solution coming from PreSonus


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## chocobitz825

jbuhler said:


> Yes, 4.5.1. But it started as an older project. I went back and set up a new project from scratch and it mostly works if I do it from there. (I say mostly, because it goes back to default arrangement for all instruments if I visit an instrument that hasn't had automation lanes manually added. That doesn't strike me as the way it is supposed to work—ETA: that is, I can't see any particular advantage to this behavior—returning to the default set-up—rather than having lanes default to the previous state of that instrument when it was last edited.)



That is odd. I’ll try and replicate it later. Perhaps someone has noted the same on the presinus forums


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## chocobitz825

Lukas said:


> Edit / insert automation points in the music editor is not possible via macros. Insert notes is possible by using the new Fill with notes command (fixed pitch range with min = max). Insert program is not possible via macros.
> 
> All these things could be done in JavaScript (if you know how) but there's no official way to do this so.... only for experimenting and on your own risk



Yeah I’ll stick to macros until something for solid comes along.


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## Lukas

For now and for everyone who doesn't know the new MIDI editing macro page yet:


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## chocobitz825

Lukas said:


> For now and for everyone who doesn't know the new MIDI editing macro page:




I actually tried with the fill notes macro first but there was no way to make it as precise as needed for consistent articulation switching. The copy method is more consistent because it references the notes already in the place to place the notes where they need to be. In place of articulation maps I’ve used the drum map as well, but the new interface is not ideal since it doesn’t show note length.


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## Dewdman42

and you can modify the toolbar with your own macros right?

What I do know about the javascript access is that you can specify a particular track to do things to. and there is one javascript command which basically can execute any macro function. Anyway, its not documented and hard to figure out, but I might at least try to figure out a way to make it easier to articulate notes somehow. 

but again, I see this as a way of inserting some kind of midi event which is the equivalent of a single cubase expression map. then I will use a VST plugin to translate that into whatever simple or complex keyswitches and channelizing is needed.


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## Lukas

chocobitz825 said:


> I actually tried with the fill notes macro first but there was no way to make it as precise as needed for consistent articulation switching. The copy method is more consistent because it references the notes already in the place to place the notes where they need to be. In place of articulation maps I’ve used the drum map as well, but the new interface is not ideal since it doesn’t show nor length.


Yes...true... it's not ideal.



Dewdman42 said:


> and you can modify the toolbar with your own macros right?


Exactly. You can create your own macros, macro buttons, groups and pages. Since 4.5 you can even build dropdown menus with separators and sub menus (that's what I did when I made the Music Editing page).



Dewdman42 said:


> What I do know about the javascript access is that you can specify a particular track to do things to.


Yes. You can actually access, insert and modify many objects like tracks, parts, notes. But you have to find out it yourself... there's no support or guarantee.


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## Dewdman42

when I figure it out I will publish some HOWTO stuff on the net, unlike anyone else so far.


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## jbuhler

chocobitz825 said:


> That is odd. I’ll try and replicate it later. Perhaps someone has noted the same on the presinus forums


I'll add that I got it working for SCS, but then when I added lanes for HZStrings, everything got messed up again, and when I went back to SCS none of the lanes would remain stable. I've asked a question over on the Presonus Forum, though I've never had great luck over there.


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## Lukas

jbuhler said:


> (Note that the video just toggles back and forth between two tracks.)


Send this video to the support including an example .song file (without instruments).


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## jbuhler

Lukas said:


> Send this video to the support including an example .song file (without instruments).


Thanks! ok, submitted a ticket to support with video, but without the .song file since I wasn't certain how best to strip it down to submit it. I'm hoping support can let me know what they need.


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## Lukas

As you've seen we could not reproduce your issue. So if you want the support (and the developers) to be able to reproduce it you should provide a song file.

How to strip it down:
1) Keep only the two involved instrument tracks
2) Remove unused instruments (there's a new command for that in the instrument rack). In the best case you remove ALL instruments.
3) If it does not work without the instruments try to replicate it with a basic Presence XT patch

That's enough to give them a chance to reproduce the issue.


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## jbuhler

Lukas said:


> As you've seen we could not reproduce your issue. So if you want the support (and the developers) to be able to reproduce it you should provide a song file.
> 
> How to strip it down:
> 1) Keep only the two involved instrument tracks
> 2) Remove unused instruments (there's a new command for that in the instrument rack). In the best case you remove ALL instruments.
> 3) If it does not work without the instruments try to replicate it with a basic Presence XT patch
> 
> That's enough to give them a chance to reproduce the issue.


Oddly, if I strip the instrument away then I don't have options to add any new parameters to the automation window. And the additional lanes I created disappeared when I removed the instrument, except expression. Fortunately, it does exhibit the symptom.


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## chocobitz825

Dewdman42 said:


> and you can modify the toolbar with your own macros right?
> 
> What I do know about the javascript access is that you can specify a particular track to do things to. and there is one javascript command which basically can execute any macro function. Anyway, its not documented and hard to figure out, but I might at least try to figure out a way to make it easier to articulate notes somehow.
> 
> but again, I see this as a way of inserting some kind of midi event which is the equivalent of a single cubase expression map. then I will use a VST plugin to translate that into whatever simple or complex keyswitches and channelizing is needed.




Here are two examples of the way I'm using the macros. For CSS because it has a velocity based key switch in place of the modulation wheel for some articulations, I threw a velocity macro in too. Its a bit more complicated for CSS, but for most other libraries its just a matter for picking your keyswitch and going, like in the second example for 8DIO Anthology. Not picking best articulations here, just showing how it works.

CSS


8DIO Anthology


I'd be interested to see how a VST could make all of this far smoother a process.


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## Dewdman42

Thanks for sharing, very cool! Its cool that S1 has macro capability and able to put into the toolbar... That alone is worth the price of admission.

So you were not able to get the macro to set the duration of your keyswitches automatically, you have to apply them to staccato length as a separate manual step?

The main point of a VST is not to eliminate some of what you're doing with macros, you still need a way to add SOMETHING to the tracks that will indicate which articulation to play. But the point is that you can hide the details. instead of embedding keyswitches into the track, which are completely different for every library, you embed a single event per articulation.. this could be a program change, or a CC message, or an automation point, or could also be a single keyswitch event too if you want. Then in the VST you map each of those to perform during playback whatever you need to for each sample library. Some sample libraries need to be channelized, some need keyswitches, sometimes more then one keyswitch. Some combine both. And there are other interesting issues such as latency compensation between articulations with slow attacks and other factors like that. All of the details like that can be buried inside a "map" in the VST. Then all you have to do in the DAW is find some way to tell the VST at any given moment which articulation you want enforced. LogicPro does this by letting you assign an articulationID to each event. Cubase does this with Expression Maps, which I'm not much of a fan. DP provides nothing, S1 provides nothing. But with a VST, you could still at least use ProgramChange events or CC's or automation points, etc.. to be the indicator of which articulation to use...a single event presents a single articulation, even if inside the VST its doing more elaborate stuff, depending on the sample library being used. It keeps your tracks much more simple in the DAW. This also provides a way to use a consistent approach, in other words, you could have it so that PC1 always means staccato. Then in the VST you decide for each sample library how to map PC1 into whatever each sample library needs to play staccato. But in S1 you just always use the same PC1 for staccato. That's a simple example, but you get the point.

I have other more elaborate ideas for the VST which will expand what is possible when combining libraries, applying note expressions, automatically doing legato on the fly, etc.. Anything that reduces the need to manually massage the midi data on the track in order to get articulations. My dream is, I enter the notes, I quantize them to the grid, I put simple tags (as events) to indicate which articulation for each note or phrase...then let the VST humanize, legatoize, send keyswitches, channelize or whatever it needs to according to the sample library map defined within.


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## chocobitz825

Dewdman42 said:


> Thanks for sharing, very cool! Its cool that S1 has macro capability and able to put into the toolbar... That alone is worth the price of admission.
> 
> So you were not able to get the macro to set the duration of your keyswitches automatically, you have to apply them to staccato length as a separate manual step?
> 
> The main point of a VST is not to eliminate some of what you're doing with macros, you still need a way to add SOMETHING to the tracks that will indicate which articulation to play. But the point is that you can hide the details. instead of embedding keyswitches into the track, which are completely different for every library, you embed a single event per articulation.. this could be a program change, or a CC message, or an automation point, or could also be a single keyswitch event too if you want. Then in the VST you map each of those to perform during playback whatever you need to for each sample library. Some sample libraries need to be channelized, some need keyswitches, sometimes more then one keyswitch. Some combine both. And there are other interesting issues such as latency compensation between articulations with slow attacks and other factors like that. All of the details like that can be buried inside a "map" in the VST. Then all you have to do in the DAW is find some way to tell the VST at any given moment which articulation you want enforced. LogicPro does this by letting you assign an articulationID to each event. Cubase does this with Expression Maps, which I'm not much of a fan. DP provides nothing, S1 provides nothing. But with a VST, you could still at least use ProgramChange events or CC's or automation points, etc.. to be the indicator of which articulation to use...a single event presents a single articulation, even if inside the VST its doing more elaborate stuff, depending on the sample library being used. It keeps your tracks much more simple in the DAW. This also provides a way to use a consistent approach, in other words, you could have it so that PC1 always means staccato. Then in the VST you decide for each sample library how to map PC1 into whatever each sample library needs to play staccato. But in S1 you just always use the same PC1 for staccato. That's a simple example, but you get the point.
> 
> I have other more elaborate ideas for the VST which will expand what is possible when combining libraries, applying note expressions, automatically doing legato on the fly, etc.. Anything that reduces the need to manually massage the midi data on the track in order to get articulations. My dream is, I enter the notes, I quantize them to the grid, I put simple tags (as events) to indicate which articulation for each note or phrase...then let the VST humanize, legatoize, send keyswitches, channelize or whatever it needs to according to the sample library map defined within.



Yeah it'd be ideal if Studio one provided similar options. People have been asking for years but still no luck. Checking now, I still dont see S1 responding to any of the parameters other than CC learn for some functions. Short of going into every library and changing their keyswitches to change to CC range, there is still no quick option to just make it all work.


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## Dewdman42

Well that's what a VST would provide a middle piece to connect them better. Even Logic and Cubase's articulation management is not perfect, its more than what S1 and DP have though.


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## Lukas

jbuhler said:


> Oddly, if I strip the instrument away then I don't have options to add any new parameters to the automation window.


Yes that's logical. Without the instrument Studio One can't know which parameters / controllers are available for automation.


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## jonathanwright

I’ll bore anyone who listens talking about the Macro Toolbar!

Personally I prefer to have everything on one page, accessible by drop downs, so I have all I need in this:







The majority of actions have a key command assigned too, but it’s handy to have it all there for the less-often used macros.


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## Lukas

jonathanwright said:


> Personally I prefer to have everything on one page, accessible by drop downs, so I have all I need in this:


Hehe... pretty similar to my macro page  I need my quantize macros (quantize 1/1 start + end) that often so that they got own buttons and key commands.


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## samphony

Dewdman42 said:


> Some macros like that still might be useful. I just barely acquired S1, so I have yet to get into the macro capabilities. The thing I am working on could use midi events or automation to drive the selection of complicated or simple key switching and/or channelizing, and some other nice features related to typical articulation handling. So you could use automation to drive it, or you could use, for example, PC events to drive it, or other types of midi events to drive it...and you could still potentially use macros to make it quick and easy to assign these automation or midi events to the right place in some simple manner. I don't know the macro environment well enough yet to know what is possible there.
> 
> What i have now is not even close to being fit for public consumption yet, but I am slowly working on it and eventually it will be. Just wondering if something like this would suddenly make S1 much more articulation friendly?
> 
> DP has a similar issue, no articulation management, yet still even some important hollywood guys still swear by DP and they get by without articulation management. I think what I'm workin on would help them too. I even think some Logic and Cubase people might use it due to oddities with the solutions there, but we shall see. If I perceive there is a big enough demand here I might spend more time on it then I have been.



I think it comes down to preference. If you’re working with one articulation per track you can work that way easily in S1.


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## Dewdman42

you don't need any special articulation management if you use one articulation per track, but I don't like working that way. Many people feel the same way as I do. But I agree, if you like one articulation per track, then no problemo today with S1


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## jbuhler

jbuhler said:


> Thanks! ok, submitted a ticket to support with video, but without the .song file since I wasn't certain how best to strip it down to submit it. I'm hoping support can let me know what they need.


Received a reply from support that wasn't especially helpful and basically said if I want the automation lanes to retain the state they were in before I shifted to another instrument then I need to make a feature request. Since folks around here seem to think this is already a thing, I was a bit surprised that support seems to think it's not the ordinary and expected behavior... I'm not even sure how I'd frame this as a feature request. 

That said, I tried setting up a template from scratch and ended up with the same problem when I added HZ Strings, since the options available for it under automation do not conform exactly to the automation available for other instruments. When that happens S1 seems to get confused and shifts to a default state if I return to the instrument. 

These are the kinds of issues I always seem to encounter when I work with S1 and it's one reason I can never solidly commit to it even though I like many things about it.


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## chocobitz825

jbuhler said:


> Received a reply from support that wasn't especially helpful and basically said if I want the automation lanes to retain the state they were in before I shifted to another instrument then I need to make a feature request. Since folks around here seem to think this is already a thing, I was a bit surprised that support seems to think it's not the ordinary and expected behavior... I'm not even sure how I'd frame this as a feature request.
> 
> That said, I tried setting up a template from scratch and ended up with the same problem when I added HZ Strings, since the options available for it under automation do not conform exactly to the automation available for other instruments. When that happens S1 seems to get confused and shifts to a default state if I return to the instrument.
> 
> These are the kinds of issues I always seem to encounter when I work with S1 and it's one reason I can never solidly commit to it even though I like many things about it.



I suppose if you write it up that you'd like the lanes to retain their previous state, then other users can come in and upvote that feature for them to work on it.


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## Lukas

I can't reproduce it. It tried it even with different instruments (Spire and Mai Tai) which provide different parameters for automation. It still works as expected:



If nobody can reproduce it there's no change for this to get changed or fixed. If you sent me an example 2 track song with S1 internal instruments (or if that's not possible two empty KONTAKTs) where this happens I could take a look at it. But apparently you are not ready for it.


----------



## chocobitz825

Lukas said:


> I can't reproduce it. It tried it even with different instruments (Spire and Mai Tai) which provide different parameters for automation. It still works as expected:
> 
> 
> 
> If nobody can reproduce it there's no change for this to get changed or fixed. If you sent me an example 2 track song with S1 internal instruments (or if that's not possible two empty KONTAKTs) where this happens I could take a look at it. But apparently you are not ready for it.





Just figured it out. In the original video, the issue is that Control 21 is active on one track and not the other. Whenever switching to the track that doesnt have control 21 active/in use, it defaults back to velocity. It might be better if it just kept the control 21 view open even on tracks that aren't using it, but it doesnt seem like its a bug, as much as its just not sure what to do when the channel is not present on the track you're switching to. Looking at the situation I was able to recreate the problem for usability, its likely that because its only maintaining the state from instance to instance, rather than locking the view for each track, when after it defaults to velocity, when you switch back to the track with Control 21, it stays on velocity, and does not switch back to control 21 view.


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## Lukas

That makes sense. But in my video I also added Portamento Time which is not available in the other instrument. Hmmm. I'll test it again later...


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## chocobitz825

Lukas said:


> That makes sense. But in my video I also added Portamento Time which is not available in the other instrument. Hmmm. I'll test it again later...



just tried a bit more, and I used a track of presence and a Track of Nexus. Nexus apparently uses control 21, but presence does not, and I cant automate that channel at all. So I get the same results, where the presence track defaults to velocity. I assume this might be the same problem, and is perhaps something to do with the fact that some instruments actually dont even have control 21 available (Or they've named it something else). So perhaps the system has to default to velocity because there's no channel on that instrument for it to display.


----------



## Lukas

But that's only if you have selected (not just added) Control 21 right? I just tried it with KONTAKT and Control 21 and as long as it's just available in the automation lanes but not selected it nothing will be reset to Velocity when switching.


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## chocobitz825

Lukas said:


> But that's only if you have selected (not just added) Control 21 right? I just tried it with KONTAKT and Control 21 and as long as it's just available in the automation lanes but not selected it nothing will be reset to Velocity when switching.



I think it depends on how the instruments identify the channels. If you load up presence, you’ll see there’s no channel called channel 21. No doubt one of them is channel 21 but the way studio one is reading it, that channel doesn’t “exist” for presence.


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## samphony

Dewdman42 said:


> you don't need any special articulation management if you use one articulation per track, but I don't like working that way. Many people feel the same way as I do. But I agree, if you like one articulation per track, then no problemo today with S1


I think my feature request for the articulation editor/ feature on answers.presonus.com has a lot of votes and I’m confident that you will see it sooner than later. It’s from 2015 by the way

http://answers.presonus.com/3240/articulation-editor

And it might not be implemented as I show it in that mock-up. I don’t have coding skills and my mock-up is just an idea but as far as I know the team in Hamburg is aware that a certain user base of S1 wants to see any kind of articulation switching implemented. 

Regarding one articulation per track. I think when someone works that way a comfortable way managing the amount of tracks is needed as well. I think cubase has a big advantage when it comes to visibility management. Another benefit of a single articulation per track workflow is working with independent track delay settings so that your notes stay on the grid.


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## jbuhler

Now, S1 just ate all the CC data for expression from every instrument in this piece. I've never seen anything like it.


chocobitz825 said:


> Just figured it out. In the original video, the issue is that Control 21 is active on one track and not the other. Whenever switching to the track that doesnt have control 21 active/in use, it defaults back to velocity. It might be better if it just kept the control 21 view open even on tracks that aren't using it, but it doesnt seem like its a bug, as much as its just not sure what to do when the channel is not present on the track you're switching to. Looking at the situation I was able to recreate the problem for usability, its likely that because its only maintaining the state from instance to instance, rather than locking the view for each track, when after it defaults to velocity, when you switch back to the track with Control 21, it stays on velocity, and does not switch back to control 21 view.


Yes, it’s true if I don’t have the automation lane open on an instrument that I get the behavior. My understanding from those on here though was the instruments were supposed to retain the state of the automation lanes last used in editing the instrument. That is evidently not the case...

The second thing is that some of my Spitfire instruments (especially those using the Spitfire sample player) evidently don’t use the regular MIDI CCs. In any case the parameters available in the automation lane chooser are different and “expression” for the Spitfire player is not the same as “expression” for most instruments. The upshot is that it is impossible to get the set of automation lanes under the music editor to be the same for, say, Spitfire Chamber Strings and Hans Zimmer Strings. This means that when I move from one to the other the automation configuration is always broken with S1 returning to something like a default state (generally but not always showing velocity or modulation in all lanes except modulation). In any case it just doesn’t work for that combination of instruments. 

Now the problem if you are working on a large template like an orchestra piece is that every instrument has to be able to be configured the same with the automation lanes if the automation configuration is going to be retained. If any instrument can’t do this you are kind of screwed and condemned to having to reset the automation any time you jump to an instrument that can’t be configured in that fashion. This does not make for efficient work and it’s one way the editing and programming of MIDI remains a chore in S1. The program still has a long way to go...

I’ll add one cautionary tale, and that is as I was working last night at some point the expression data on all tracks just disappeared. (I was not able to reproduce the problem so I don’t know what happened.) In any case I was able to go back to a fairly recent version and recover it but that kind of bug is worrisome, and good thing I wasn’t working on deadline. Related, when I went to restore an earlier version S1 hung on closing the previous project (as it often does for any project contains a Kontakt instance—a king standing bug that I’ve reported to support and Presonus hasn’t deemed important enough to fix). It took several attempts to restore because S1 could not close the current project to open a previous one. 

I love much about S1 and it’s workflow generally suits me better than Logic but the issues I’ve had the past couple of days as I’ve been working intensely with it remind me why I always end up going back to Logic for big projects involving lots of VIs. 

One final question. Is there a way to open the automation envelopes created under the music editor as automation tracks in the main window. Whenever I open the automation parameter in the main window the automation envelope created in the music editor does not show up so I can’t figure out how to edit it there.


----------



## chocobitz825

jbuhler said:


> Now, S1 just ate all the CC data for expression from every instrument in this piece. I've never seen anything like it.
> 
> Yes, it’s true if I don’t have the automation lane open on an instrument that I get the behavior. My understanding from those on here though was the instruments were supposed to retain the state of the automation lanes last used in editing the instrument. That is evidently not the case...
> 
> The second thing is that some of my Spitfire instruments (especially those using the Spitfire sample player) evidently don’t use the regular MIDI CCs. In any case the parameters available in the automation lane chooser are different and “expression” for the Spitfire player is not the same as “expression” for most instruments. The upshot is that it is impossible to get the set of automation lanes under the music editor to be the same for, say, Spitfire Chamber Strings and Hans Zimmer Strings. This means that when I move from one to the other the automation configuration is always broken with S1 returning to something like a default state (generally but not always showing velocity or modulation in all lanes except modulation). In any case it just doesn’t work for that combination of instruments.
> 
> Now the problem if you are working on a large template like an orchestra piece is that every instrument has to be able to be configured the same with the automation lanes if the automation configuration is going to be retained. If any instrument can’t do this you are kind of screwed and condemned to having to reset the automation any time you jump to an instrument that can’t be configured in that fashion. This does not make for efficient work and it’s one way the editing and programming of MIDI remains a chore in S1. The program still has a long way to go...
> 
> I’ll add one cautionary tale, and that is as I was working last night at some point the expression data on all tracks just disappeared. (I was not able to reproduce the problem so I don’t know what happened.) In any case I was able to go back to a fairly recent version and recover it but that kind of bug is worrisome, and good thing I wasn’t working on deadline. Related, when I went to restore an earlier version S1 hung on closing the previous project (as it often does for any project contains a Kontakt instance—a king standing bug that I’ve reported to support and Presonus hasn’t deemed important enough to fix). It took several attempts to restore because S1 could not close the current project to open a previous one.
> 
> I love much about S1 and it’s workflow generally suits me better than Logic but the issues I’ve had the past couple of days as I’ve been working intensely with it remind me why I always end up going back to Logic for big projects involving lots of VIs.
> 
> One final question. Is there a way to open the automation envelopes created under the music editor as automation tracks in the main window. Whenever I open the automation parameter in the main window the automation envelope created in the music editor does not show up so I can’t figure out how to edit it there.




yes it seems like its does not save the state of each track's automation windows, as much as it just seems to try and retain the same view for every track. I'm honestly not sure which is better. maybe this needs to be an option in the future. For me personally, when I'm doing automation, I'm normally doing the same kind of automation for multiple tracks, so it showing the same pages all the time is helpful. However, i can see the reasoning behind wanting it to retain the same view you had it on previously. 

as for automation in the main window, I never actually noticed that the two windows are not linked when you open up the automation. that must be a bug.


----------



## jbuhler

chocobitz825 said:


> as for automation in the main window, I never actually noticed that the two windows are not linked when you open up the automation. that must be a bug.


I was wondering if it was like the difference between track and region automation in Logic. 

So you also can't open automation envelopes you created in the music editor in the main window?


----------



## chocobitz825

jbuhler said:


> I was wondering if it was like the difference between track and region automation in Logic.
> 
> So you also can't open automation envelopes you created in the music editor in the main window?



I can see the outline of my envelopes in the main window, but when i open the automation in the main window, it just shows a flat line. If i draw something new in the main window, it directly conflicts with the one form the midi editor.


----------



## samphony

These issues need to get sorted. Did you report them? A show only used controllers or show controller preset nr … macro should be implemented as well


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## jbuhler

Lukas said:


> I can't reproduce it. It tried it even with different instruments (Spire and Mai Tai) which provide different parameters for automation. It still works as expected:
> 
> 
> 
> If nobody can reproduce it there's no change for this to get changed or fixed. If you sent me an example 2 track song with S1 internal instruments (or if that's not possible two empty KONTAKTs) where this happens I could take a look at it. But apparently you are not ready for it.



Here is a link to the S1 file. And here is an accompanying YouTube video:


I'll repeat that I sent these to Presonus support, and the support person said this was expected behavior and that it looks like the automation envelopes were created in different order. (They weren't except insofar as HZ Strings doesn't have the ordinary Expression of CC21 available.) It also doesn't really explain the behavior.

I would be fine if S1 either retained the configuration of the automation lanes on a per instrument basis or if you could set a default configuration that would appear regardless of whether the instrument had that automation available. But I can't even figure out how S1 expects its configurations to work. As best I can figure out the logic is: if the new instrument has the same parameter as the previous instrument retain it. If not, substitute velocity or some other randomly chosen default parameter.

Here is a partial list of the parameters available on HZ Strings:




The MIDI CCs are addressable but they are not the same format as the ordinary ones:








In particular, the HZ Strings has no MIDI folder.

Oh, and all the expression data just disappeared from my project again...

I was again able to recover it by going back to an earlier version, but this is seriously worrisome.


----------



## jbuhler

chocobitz825 said:


> I can see the outline of my envelopes in the main window, but when i open the automation in the main window, it just shows a flat line. If i draw something new in the main window, it directly conflicts with the one form the midi editor.


Yes, that's the behavior I get as well.


----------



## jbuhler

samphony said:


> These issues need to get sorted. Did you report them? A show only used controllers or show controller preset nr … macro should be implemented as well


Yes, I did report it, and got the response that I should make a feature request! I don't really even know how to describe the problem and how to propose it as a feature since it doesn't seem to affect everyone.


----------



## chocobitz825

jbuhler said:


> Here is a link to the S1 file. And here is an accompanying YouTube video:
> 
> 
> I'll repeat that I sent these to Presonus support, and the support person said this was expected behavior and that it looks like the automation envelopes were created in different order. (They weren't except insofar as HZ Strings doesn't have the ordinary Expression of CC21 available.) It also doesn't really explain the behavior.
> 
> I would be fine if S1 either retained the configuration of the automation lanes on a per instrument basis or if you could set a default configuration that would appear regardless of whether the instrument had that automation available. But I can't even figure out how S1 expects its configurations to work. As best I can figure out the logic is: if the new instrument has the same parameter as the previous instrument retain it. If not, substitute velocity or some other randomly chosen default parameter.
> 
> Here is a partial list of the parameters available on HZ Strings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The MIDI CCs are addressable but they are not the same format as the ordinary ones:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In particular, the HZ Strings has no MIDI folder.
> 
> Oh, and all the expression data just disappeared from my project again...
> 
> I was again able to recover it by going back to an earlier version, but this is seriously worrisome.




I’ve sometimes overwritten expression data by accidentally recording when multiple tracks were selected for edit (the blue pencil icons). Is that the case? Another time when I’ve “lost” automation is when recording midi on top of Previously recorded event of midi. This sometimes resulted in two events layered on top of each other and when i then merged the two some automation data was lost because the newer midi event did not have expression/automation recorded.


----------



## jbuhler

chocobitz825 said:


> I’ve sometimes overwritten expression data by accidentally recording when multiple tracks were selected for edit (the blue pencil icons). Is that the case? Another time when I’ve “lost” automation is when recording midi on top of Previously recorded event of midi. This sometimes resulted in two events layered on top of each other and when i then merged the two some automation data was lost because the newer midi event did not have expression/automation recorded.


No. I wasn't recording anything, and this morning I only opened the file to take those screen shots of the automation manager, so didn't do anything except that. Went to look at an instrument for other reasons and noticed the expression and CC21 data were missing again. 

There is something seriously messed up. Maybe this particular file is corrupt. If so, what's the best way to resolve it? Export the midi and reimport into a new project?


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## Lukas

Thanks @jbuhler for the song file! I took a look at it. Clear case: There is no Expression in your "HZ Violin 1" so it's pretty obvious why Expression switches to Velocity. It can't display a parameter which you haven't added.

In your video you open the Music Editor but you have no instrument parts in the song. The editor shows only automation parameters for a track that has something to display (notes, controller data or at least a part for it). That's why you don't see the controller lane change when you select the tracks. Add two empty instrument parts to your "HZ Violin 1" and "Violin 1" tracks and do the same thing again. You will see that HZ Violin 1 has no Expression. So here's the reason why it changes to Velocity  I've added Expression for this track and now it works as you want.

That's why I asked for an example song. This mostly helps to see what's wrong.


----------



## jbuhler

Lukas said:


> Thanks @jbuhler for the song file! I took a look at it. Clear case: There is no Expression in your "HZ Violin 1" so it's pretty obvious why Expression switches to Velocity. It can't display a parameter which you haven't added.
> 
> In your video you open the Music Editor but you have no instrument parts in the song. The editor shows only automation parameters for a track that has something to display (notes, controller data or at least a part for it). That's why you don't see the controller lane change when you select the tracks. Add two empty instrument parts to your "HZ Violin 1" and "Violin 1" tracks and do the same thing again. You will see that HZ Violin 1 has no Expression. So here's the reason why it changes to Velocity  I've added Expression for this track and now it works as you want.
> 
> That's why I asked for an example song. This mostly helps to see what's wrong.


Well, yes, this is the example you told me to produce that had no instrument on it. Since there are no instruments on either track, expression shouldn't even be there, but it was retained from the original tracks that had those instruments on it after I deleted the instrument. Interestingly, vibrato and CC21 disappeared when I deleted the instrument, but expression was retained. 

Actually HZStrings does have "Expression"; it just happens not to be the same "expression" as SCS, which follows the standard MIDI one. HZStrings will respond to "expression" data however as MIDI CC 0|11 or under its own parameter of "expression." But Studio One does not interpret either of those as the same lane as CC11/expression in other instruments. It works similarly for vibrato. 

None of this gets to the basic problem though: the automation configuration does not travel with the instrument as was initially stated by someone on one of these threads. That is simply not the behavior S1 is programmed to follow in general. So if you have an instrument like HZ Strings that does not address expression as CC11 (even though it responds to it as such) or vibrato as CC21, then I see no way to set up a configuration that will translate consistently across all instruments. You have to manually reset the configuration every time. I'm sorry, but that makes no sense in terms of design (it's really a lack of design and S1 not really being optimized for handling large numbers of VIs) and it results in a very kludgy workflow. And it makes working with a large number of tracks (to address the topic of this thread) difficult compared to other DAWs because I spend so much time manually resetting the automation configuration, which generally requires at least two clicks to reset expression and CC21 every time I change instruments.

Now if someone can tell me how to set up the instruments so I can avoid this, I'd be grateful, and it would address one big reservation to using S1 for large orchestral projects.


----------



## jbuhler

jbuhler said:


> Well, yes, this is the example you told me to produce that had no instrument on it. Since there are no instruments on either track, expression shouldn't even be there, but it was retained from the original tracks that had those instruments on it after I deleted the instrument. Interestingly, vibrato and CC21 disappeared when I deleted the instrument, but expression was retained.
> 
> Actually HZStrings does have "Expression"; it just happens not to be the same "expression" as SCS, which follows the standard MIDI one. HZStrings will respond to "expression" data however as MIDI CC 0|11 or under its own parameter of "expression." But Studio One does not interpret either of those as the same lane as CC11/expression in other instruments. It works similarly for vibrato.
> 
> None of this gets to the basic problem though: the automation configuration does not travel with the instrument as was initially stated by someone on one of these threads. That is simply not the behavior S1 is programmed to follow in general. So if you have an instrument like HZ Strings that does not address expression as CC11 (even though it responds to it as such) or vibrato as CC21, then I see no way to set up a configuration that will translate consistently across all instruments. You have to manually reset the configuration every time. I'm sorry, but that makes no sense in terms of design (it's really a lack of design and S1 not really being optimized for handling large numbers of VIs) and it results in a very kludgy workflow. And it makes working with a large number of tracks (to address the topic of this thread) difficult compared to other DAWs because I spend so much time manually resetting the automation configuration, which generally requires at least two clicks to reset expression and CC21 every time I change instruments.
> 
> Now if someone can tell me how to set up the instruments so I can avoid this, I'd be grateful, and it would address one big reservation to using S1 for large orchestral projects.


Addendum: I tried to set up a template with Spitfire Orchestra instruments and HZ Strings and with automation lanes defined. The SSO stuff all worked fine until I added the HZS and then it stopped working. Whenever I would go to a HZS instrument, the automation would have to be reset. And the same going back to an SSO instrument. 

The basic problem is that the user is not allowed to define a default state for the configuration of the automation lanes nor is the configuration saved with the instrument. Instead, when S1 encounters an anomaly it defaults to something, mostly velocity, but even that is not consistent. And then it retains that as the state going forward. Which is just not helpful and shows a lack of thought and design on the part of the developers. I really don't understand how Presonus is thinking about this. I mean, how do they expect that we will be using these automation configurations that would make this behavior reasonable?


----------



## jbuhler

Another issue I'm having with S1 as I work with large templates that militates against recommending it for big orchestral templates: whenever I get above about 50 GB of active memory used (I have 64GB) by S1, System, and other apps, S1 starts to have occasional pops from what seems to be unexplained CPU spikes. The problem exhibits more like the drives are not responding fast enough except that S1's performance meter and the Activity Monitor core meter both show a CPU spike in the first core, but the spikes don't correlate with a high number of instruments playing or anything obvious like that. 

Then, too, when working with large projects S1 often stalls randomly during export stems and mixdowns (stopping for 3 or 4 seconds at some point in the song with one of the CPU cores maxed out). Again, I only have these issues when working with large projects (more than 40-45GB of sample content) and this is almost entirely orchestral instruments in Kontakt and the SF player, and nothing appears to be a CPU hog.


----------



## maestro2be

I also just wonder how much of it is it's inability to handle Kontakt. It has been an issue for me for several versions. I am purposefully building an entire orchestration song out of only VSL instruments to see if I ever run across this issue as I get nothing but crashes and hangs when Kontakt is somewhere in the project. I can't imagine having 64GB of kontakt instruments. Just one instance of Gravity or Spitfire Chamber Strings and my projects go to shit. And it doesn't seem to care if it's Kontakt 5 or 6. It discriminates against both equally .


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## Lukas

My last hybrid orchestra production had ~ 50 instances if KONTAKT, ~ 20 GB samples in the RAM...

What do the crash dumps say? Where did the crash happen? Studio One can't do anything if a plugin crashes.

And does it happen with VSL / VE too? Or one if KONTAKT is involved?


----------



## jbuhler

maestro2be said:


> I also just wonder how much of it is it's inability to handle Kontakt. It has been an issue for me for several versions. I am purposefully building an entire orchestration song out of only VSL instruments to see if I ever run across this issue as I get nothing but crashes and hangs when Kontakt is somewhere in the project. I can't imagine having 64GB of kontakt instruments. Just one instance of Gravity or Spitfire Chamber Strings and my projects go to shit. And it doesn't seem to care if it's Kontakt 5 or 6. It discriminates against both equally .


I'll be interested in hearing your results. But S1 is not going to earn many converts for media scoring if it can't handle Kontakt. This is another thing that I've complained to Presonus support about several times dating back to at least early iterations of Version 3 and have received a very indifferent response. Either it is technically too hard or they don't care, but the lack of response on the matter suggests to me that they don't see it as a priority.



Lukas said:


> What do the crash dumps say? Where did the crash happen? Studio One can't do anything if a plugin crashes.



The crashes almost always happen when I close a project, and it usually hangs rather than officially crashes. I haven't checked recently and don't remember what it said when I looked into it but when I've contacted support about it, they never blamed it on a plug-in. It was more like: Well, it's not affecting your ability to work in the project or save it, so we don't really need to pursue this further at this time. And in any case, if Kontakt isn't behaving well in S1 but it works fine in Logic and every other DAW, in my book that's still on Presonus to solve. It's not like Kontakt is some obscure plug-in.

I compare this to Apple support on Logic, where twice in the last year or so I've had long discussions about some strange behaviors related to Kontakt scripting, especially in Spitfire instruments. In both cases, the problem had been addressed in the next update of Logic.


----------



## Dewdman42

maestro2be said:


> I also just wonder how much of it is it's inability to handle Kontakt. It has been an issue for me for several versions. I am purposefully building an entire orchestration song out of only VSL instruments to see if I ever run across this issue as I get nothing but crashes and hangs when Kontakt is somewhere in the project. I can't imagine having 64GB of kontakt instruments. Just one instance of Gravity or Spitfire Chamber Strings and my projects go to shit. And it doesn't seem to care if it's Kontakt 5 or 6. It discriminates against both equally .



How do you have kontakt configured. Do you have multithreaded option turned on in Kontakt by any chance? It probably should not be.


----------



## rrichard63

jbuhler said:


> Either it is technically too hard or they don't care, but the lack of response on the matter suggests to me that they don't see it as a priority.


If I had to guess, my guess would be that Presonus's priority is producers of pop, urban and EDM. I would further guess that if they were to start taking this seriously, they would have to hire someone with a background in film scoring, TV or production music. That sounds expensive. But doing so might lead to development of a Studio One 5 or 6 that would eventually dominate the entire DAW marketplace. Other parts of the foundation are there.


----------



## chocobitz825

rrichard63 said:


> If I had to guess, my guess would be that Presonus's priority is producers of pop, urban and EDM. I would further guess that if they were to start taking this seriously, they would have to hire someone with a background in film scoring, TV or production music. That sounds expensive. But doing so might lead to development of a Studio One 5 or 6 that would eventually dominate the entire DAW marketplace. Other parts of the foundation are there.



I think the last 4.0 aimed at beatmakers and EDM, while the 4.5 update was defintely aimed at pro tools users. Balancing everything out, S1 is still my preferred daw because I do many genres and it overall fits best to spark creativity for me. However to be perfectly honest, I can see why film scoring is low priority for them. In today’s market, how much more money do they stand to make appealing to all the beatmakers and “producers” compared to the decreasing number of people in film scores. Not to say the community is insignificant, but I mean...we’re more indies than mainstream.


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## Lukas

jbuhler said:


> And in any case, if Kontakt isn't behaving well in S1 but it works fine in Logic and every other DAW, in my book that's still on Presonus to solve. It's not like Kontakt is some obscure plug-in.


It is known that PreSonus / Studio One does not fix bugs and incompatibilities (like not conforming to the VST specification) in 3rd party software (plugins)... what Cubase and Logic have done several times in the past.

If a plugin behaves better in one certain DAW it doesn't mean it's Studio One's fault.

But in the case of Kontakt my guess is the system. I haven't ever had any problems with Kontakt in Studio One. I had problems with Arturia plugins, Waves plugins, Spectrasonics plugins. But not Kontakt (and Kontakt is an instrument which is in *each* of my songs).


----------



## maestro2be

Dewdman42 said:


> How do you have kontakt configured. Do you have multithreaded option turned on in Kontakt by any chance? It probably should not be.



I have multithread turned off for the instances that run directly inside Studio One, and Multithread turned on in VE Pro. I freeze/lockup with either one. I should add, it only happens when closing a project.


----------



## maestro2be

Lukas said:


> It is known that PreSonus / Studio One does not fix bugs and incompatibilities (like not conforming to the VST specification) in 3rd party software (plugins)... what Cubase and Logic have done several times in the past.
> 
> If a plugin behaves better in one certain DAW it doesn't mean it's Studio One's fault.
> 
> But in the case of Kontakt my guess is the system. I haven't ever had any problems with Kontakt in Studio One. I had problems with Arturia plugins, Waves plugins, Spectrasonics plugins. But not Kontakt (and Kontakt is an instrument which is in *each* of my songs).



On the exact same hardware I can use Cubase and never freeze or crash. To me, that strongly suggests it's a Studio One issue, even if it is some type of compatibility to my system. Oh, and it happens on the VE Pro server as well which is totally different hardware. Anytime I host Kontakt inside or outside in VE Pro it will hang forever or crash on closing a project. Presonus has not ever been able to solve it. VSL has never been able to solve it (tickets with both companies). I just make sure to save my VE Pro instances before closing a project so I never lose my work after the close crash that will happen.


----------



## jbuhler

Another thing that militates against using S1 for large orchestral projects: it's hard to move midi between files. Or at least the manual and lots of searching on Google doesn't show me how to do insert a chunk of music from one project into another.

Say I have 16 measures of fully orchestrated music in a S1 sketch pad in one file and want to move that section to another file to integrate it into a different piece that is say already 125 measures long. How do I insert those 16 measures at measure 126 of the new file? 

I've tried exporting midi and then importing it, but S1 insists on opening the midi in a new file rather than the file I dragged it to. (Why the developers thought this was the kind of behavior anyone would want is anyone's guess.) I've tried using import song data, but that seems to import only starting at measure 1 even if you already have music there. Is there a solution to this? Googling around suggests this is long standing issue. But maybe you just have to know the trick. 

The only solution I've found is to import the midi, instrument by instrument.


----------



## chocobitz825

jbuhler said:


> Another thing that militates against using S1 for large orchestral projects: it's hard to move midi between files. Or at least the manual and lots of searching on Google doesn't show me how to do insert a chunk of music from one project into another.
> 
> Say I have 16 measures of fully orchestrated music in a S1 sketch pad in one file and want to move that section to another file to integrate it into a different piece that is say already 125 measures long. How do I insert those 16 measures at measure 126 of the new file?
> 
> I've tried exporting midi and then importing it, but S1 insists on opening the midi in a new file rather than the file I dragged it to. (Why the developers thought this was the kind of behavior anyone would want is anyone's guess.) I've tried using import song data, but that seems to import only starting at measure 1 even if you already have music there. Is there a solution to this? Googling around suggests this is long standing issue. But maybe you just have to know the trick.
> 
> The only solution I've found is to import the midi, instrument by instrument.




this was actually a benefit i was going to mention,. Export the section you want as a musicloop. it would require you to cut those 16 measures temporarily to export the loop, but you can undo it after the export. Export will generate one musicloop per track. Just through those music loops into the new project wherever you want. 

This is one feature that makes S1 best for me as I collaborate on projects with other writers and exporting a musicloop is a gem. by default it saves the midi data, instrument and fx data, so when you import it, it will come into the new project just the same as it was in the last project, or if you're sharing a project with someone who has the same instruments and fx, they'll get all the information without any need for setup. 

Another alternative that might work is saving your one file in versions instead of making new files, but I'm not 100% mastered on this new function.


----------



## jbuhler

chocobitz825 said:


> this was actually a benefit i was going to mention,. Export the section you want as a musicloop. it would require you to cut those 16 measures temporarily to export the loop, but you can undo it after the export. Export will generate one musicloop per track. Just through those music loops into the new project wherever you want.
> 
> This is one feature that makes S1 best for me as I collaborate on projects with other writers and exporting a musicloop is a gem. by default it saves the midi data, instrument and fx data, so when you import it, it will come into the new project just the same as it was in the last project, or if you're sharing a project with someone who has the same instruments and fx, they'll get all the information without any need for setup.


That's helpful and better than the other solutions I've tried but it still has a couple problems, or I'm doing it wrong. First thing is that the music loop saves the instrument along with the midi. It's not a big deal to delete the instrument, but it does involve additional steps and when I'm running close to the memory capacities of the machine, I don't need to accidentally load a 1.2 GB instrument (or a Kontakt multi that is even larger). Oddly when I just did this, 3 of the 8 created new tracks and imported the instrument whereas the other 5 just went to the track. I don't know what the difference was. Second, the loops do not export with useful names. Instead I get *test*, *test (2)*, *test (3)*, *test (4)*, etc. rather than something useful like the original track names: *test (violin 1)*, *test (cello)*, *test (oboe)*, *test (trumpet)*, etc. Another advantage of the music loops are that you do get an audio render of each of the tracks to preview (so that helps), it retains the tempo information, and each of the midi files is cut to the same length to ensure they conform (which is not the case if you use the midi data from import song data). 

I did discover that I can create the requisite number of empty instruments in the current file, then go to the original file, copy it, and then paste the midi into the empty instruments, and then move the midi to correct places from there, and then delete the instruments. If the two files use the same template, then you can just do a direct copy paste. I don't think that method retains tempo information, however. (S1 also works much, much better with multiple files open than does Logic.)



> Another alternative that might work is saving your one file in versions instead of making new files, but I'm not 100% mastered on this new function.


I already make extensive use of versions and sketchpads, both of which are helpful in large projects if you are trying to do it all in one file. But things do get unwieldy. The problem I was trying to solve today involved trying to port between two versions of the project—though they had different templates because I used the first to sketch and then rebuilt but at some point I went back to work on this one chunk in a sketchpad. In any case, I found it no easier to do it from an earlier non-conforming version than from a completely different file.


----------



## chocobitz825

jbuhler said:


> That's helpful and better than the other solutions I've tried but it still has a couple problems, or I'm doing it wrong. First thing is that the music loop saves the instrument along with the midi. It's not a big deal to delete the instrument, but it does involve additional steps and when I'm running close to the memory capacities of the machine, I don't need to accidentally load a 1.2 GB instrument (or a Kontakt multi that is even larger). Oddly when I just did this, 3 of the 8 created new tracks and imported the instrument whereas the other 5 just went to the track. I don't know what the difference was. Second, the loops do not export with useful names. Instead I get *test*, *test (2)*, *test (3)*, *test (4)*, etc. rather than something useful like the original track names: *test (violin 1)*, *test (cello)*, *test (oboe)*, *test (trumpet)*, etc. Another advantage of the music loops are that you do get an audio render of each of the tracks to preview (so that helps), it retains the tempo information, and each of the midi files is cut to the same length to ensure they conform (which is not the case if you use the midi data from import song data).
> 
> I did discover that I can create the requisite number of empty instruments in the current file, then go to the original file, copy it, and then paste the midi into the empty instruments, and then move the midi to correct places from there, and then delete the instruments. If the two files use the same template, then you can just do a direct copy paste. I don't think that method retains tempo information, however. (S1 also works much, much better with multiple files open than does Logic.)
> 
> 
> I already make extensive use of versions and sketchpads, both of which are helpful in large projects if you are trying to do it all in one file. But things do get unwieldy. The problem I was trying to solve today involved trying to port between two versions of the project—though they had different templates because I used the first to sketch and then rebuilt but at some point I went back to work on this one chunk in a sketchpad. In any case, I found it no easier to do it from an earlier non-conforming version than from a completely different file.



I just tried another test of the musicloops and it seems like its actually pretty intuitive. If you load the musicloop into an empty space in the project, it will load up the entire track and instruments. If you just drag the musicloop into the space where you want it on a preexisting track, it will only insert the midi. Or as i believe you noted, if you load it into an audio track, it will load the wav file with midi and instrument data embedded. I wish there was a better option for naming the files. generally when I can, i just merge the events from the track into one event, and export that, but sometimes that might not be possible. perhaps its best to just export track by track is so you can at least name them relative to the track/instrument they represent.


----------



## jbuhler

chocobitz825 said:


> I just tried another test of the musicloops and it seems like its actually pretty intuitive. If you load the musicloop into an empty space in the project, it will load up the entire track and instruments. If you just drag the musicloop into the space where you want it on a preexisting track, it will only insert the midi. Or as i believe you noted, if you load it into an audio track, it will load the wav file with midi and instrument data embedded. I wish there was a better option for naming the files. generally when I can, i just merge the events from the track into one event, and export that, but sometimes that might not be possible. perhaps its best to just export track by track is so you can at least name them relative to the track/instrument they represent.


That's not quite it either, as the three loops that opened new instruments were all dropped onto instrument tracks just like the five that didn't open new instrument tracks. I guess S1 just decided that I really wanted to open those three loops with the original instrument. 

I didn't try the audio track, but that's a neat feature. I was referring to the file browser, where you can audition the midi musicloops before you insert them.


----------



## chocobitz825

jbuhler said:


> That's not quite it either, as the three loops that opened new instruments were all dropped onto instrument tracks just like the five that didn't open new instrument tracks. I guess S1 just decided that I really wanted to open those three loops with the original instrument.
> 
> I didn't try the audio track, but that's a neat feature. I was referring to the file browser, where you can audition the midi musicloops before you insert them.



That’s odd. I was able to just drag the loop right into the track (it even shows the midi event immediately on the track). Perhaps an instrument needs to be loaded on the track first. That or maybe you have to do it one music loop at a time.


----------



## jbuhler

chocobitz825 said:


> That’s odd. I was able to just drag the loop right into the track (it even shows the midi event immediately on the track). Perhaps an instrument needs to be loaded on the track first. That or maybe you have to do it one music loop at a time.


The tracks had instruments loaded, so that's not it either. In those three instances, S1 inserted a new track right above the track where I'd placed it.

I wonder it's some kind of version issue. That is, some of the tracks had been created quite a long time ago, maybe 3-4 years ago, whereas others had been created yesterday. And the three tracks that S1 rejected and created new tracks for had all been created yesterday. The only problem with that theory is that one track that had been created yesterday did allow me to put the midi on it.


----------



## samphony

jbuhler said:


> That's helpful and better than the other solutions I've tried but it still has a couple problems, or I'm doing it wrong. First thing is that the music loop saves the instrument along with the midi. It's not a big deal to delete the instrument, but it does involve additional steps and when I'm running close to the memory capacities of the machine, I don't need to accidentally load a 1.2 GB instrument (or a Kontakt multi that is even larger). Oddly when I just did this, 3 of the 8 created new tracks and imported the instrument whereas the other 5 just went to the track. I don't know what the difference was. Second, the loops do not export with useful names. Instead I get *test*, *test (2)*, *test (3)*, *test (4)*, etc. rather than something useful like the original track names: *test (violin 1)*, *test (cello)*, *test (oboe)*, *test (trumpet)*, etc. Another advantage of the music loops are that you do get an audio render of each of the tracks to preview (so that helps), it retains the tempo information, and each of the midi files is cut to the same length to ensure they conform (which is not the case if you use the midi data from import song data).
> 
> I did discover that I can create the requisite number of empty instruments in the current file, then go to the original file, copy it, and then paste the midi into the empty instruments, and then move the midi to correct places from there, and then delete the instruments. If the two files use the same template, then you can just do a direct copy paste. I don't think that method retains tempo information, however. (S1 also works much, much better with multiple files open than does Logic.)
> 
> 
> I already make extensive use of versions and sketchpads, both of which are helpful in large projects if you are trying to do it all in one file. But things do get unwieldy. The problem I was trying to solve today involved trying to port between two versions of the project—though they had different templates because I used the first to sketch and then rebuilt but at some point I went back to work on this one chunk in a sketchpad. In any case, I found it no easier to do it from an earlier non-conforming version than from a completely different file.


Why don’t you just copy paste the music events between songs?


----------



## samphony

By the way if you drag a music event into the browser it offers to either save it as musicloop or if you hit option/alt once it offers to save it as midi file. Either way it saves with the name taken from the event. You can also secondary click on the file in the browser and rename it.


----------



## chocobitz825

samphony said:


> By the way if you drag a music event into the browser it offers to either save it as musicloop or if you hit option/alt once it offers to save it as midi file. Either way it saves with the name taken from the event. You can also secondary click on the file in the browser and rename it.



Lol I’ve used this function and I always manage forget it’s there as an option.


----------



## Lukas

Why so complicated  If you just want the MIDI from the musicloop, just collapse it and drag the musicx/MIDI or the FLAC (audio) into your song.


----------



## chocobitz825

Lukas said:


> Why so complicated  If you just want the MIDI from the musicloop, just collapse it and drag the musicx/MIDI or the FLAC (audio) into your song.



It’s ridiculous how many times I have to remind myself to use the browser.


----------



## jbuhler

samphony said:


> Why don’t you just copy paste the music events between songs?


Because pasting a track at a time in a pain and if I do multiple regions then I have to create empty tracks to receive them since the templates don't conform with each other. Also both files have large templates, so I have to be careful about total system memory. Exporting the midi and then importing it into the next file avoids that issue.


Lukas said:


> Why so complicated  If you just want the MIDI from the musicloop, just collapse it and drag the musicx/MIDI or the FLAC (audio) into your song.


That's fine if your loop is only a couple of bits. But say instead the sixteen measures you want involves eighty instrument tracks and many of those tracks consists of multiple midi regions. Then this solution isn't so neat because the .musicloop output is *Name (incremental number)* for each part, and for my loop I now have, say part files ranging from *Name* to *Name (100)* that I have to properly put into place to reconstruct the passage. So in order to reproduce a passage in a new song I have to either take a screen shot of the original configuration and follow that to reconstruct or do something like my current solution:

create midi regions that span the full extent of the passage I want to copy for each instrument used. (Is there a command to group disparate midi on a track into a single region that spans the length of a loop?)
export the loop into an appropriately titled folder
rename each loop according to the instrument name of the track (is there a way in MacOS to automate renaming large numbers of file if I have, say, a text file of names in the order of the tracks as I want them? So if I have a CSV file that runs something like "piccolo, solo flute, solo flute legato, flutes a2, solo oboe, solo oboe legato, oboes a2..." and a set of .musicloops that corresponds to it like "part.musicloop, part (2).musicloop, part (3).musicloop, part (4).musicloop..." so that *part.musicloop* would become *piccolo.musicloop*, *part (2).musicloop* would *solo flute.musicloop*, *part (3).musicloop* would become *solo flute legato.musicloop*, etc.)
(optional) in the destination song create a new sketchpad, set the loop indicators to the length of the imported loop, and create a label for the loop in the arranger track. (You can also do something like this at the insertion point in the main song.)
use the browser (like @Lukas shows above) to import each musicloop into the appropriate track in the sketchpad or at the insertion point.
If I could find a way through a script to automate the consolidation and conformance of the midi regions for step 1, the renaming of step 3, and the extraction track names used in the musicloop into a CSV file (required to automate renaming) that would make this a pretty efficient workflow. Is there a bulk renaming script available to handle this kind of thing?


----------



## jbuhler

Here's a useful behavior that I stumbled across if you use lots of scratchpads. In the Mac version at least, if you put your cursor on top of the scratchpad selector, you can use the track pad or scrolling capacities of your mouse to quickly navigate among the various scratchpads without having to open up the menu.


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## samphony

Of course copy paste of events doesn’t include tracks and routing yet. A behavior that needs to be implemented in a future version in my opinion.


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## jbuhler

ok, here's a dumb question about S1. Sometimes when I click on a track in the arranger window—especially when clicking to expand a folder for whatever reason—S1 will randomly recolor the track without the color window ever appearing. Any idea what is going on or more importantly how to lock the colors once they are set so I don't inadvertently reset them? I seem to do this a couple of times a day.


----------



## ThomasL

jbuhler said:


> ok, here's a dumb question about S1. Sometimes when I click on a track in the arranger window—especially when clicking to expand a folder for whatever reason—S1 will randomly recolor the track without the color window ever appearing. Any idea what is going on or more importantly how to lock the colors once they are set so I don't inadvertently reset them? I seem to do this a couple of times a day.


If you by accident scroll with your scroll wheel while hovering over the color bar you will scroll through the colors.


----------



## jbuhler

Another thing to consider in working with large templates: for me, S1 has more trouble with Kontakt streaming from disk than does Logic. On this project I have to run S1 at 1024 samples and dfd buffer in Kontakt at 60kb to avoid frequent pops and clicks when playing back in S1. In Logic, I run at 512 samples and dfd of 24 buffer at 24kb for a similar sized project with no problems at all. I don't really know why S1 would have so much more trouble with Kontakt streaming from disk. But the problem was bad enough that I had to change to 1024 samples to make playback tolerable. 

I use Kontakt multis in S1 and an instance per track in Logic. I wonder if that might be part of the issue, presuming that all multis are processed by the same core, so the string multi for instance gets a lot of work. The other difference is I use the VST version of Kontakt in S1 rather than the AU.


----------



## jbuhler

ThomasL said:


> If you by accident scroll with your scroll wheel while hovering over the color bar you will scroll through the colors.


Thanks for the reply! Yes, I know that behavior when the color bar is open, but the weird thing is that the color bar never appears on screen.


----------



## ThomasL

jbuhler said:


> Thanks for the reply! Yes, I know that behavior when the color bar is open, but the weird thing is that the color bar never appears on screen.


That IS strange!?!


----------



## samphony

jbuhler said:


> I use Kontakt multis in S1 and an instance per track in Logic



You should work the same way in s1 like in logic. Also one instance per articulation should give you a better performance when working with dual buffer engines.


----------



## jbuhler

Ok, another strange behavior I'm getting right now in S1. I'm working in the scratchpad. I have the piano roll open on a second monitor. I have the loop set for 8 measures starting in m. 17. In the arrange window, I click on one of the regions to edit the midi at m. 17. But rather than going to the selected region or even staying in the loop, the editor instead goes to the unselected region at the beginning of the scratchpad and it turns off autoscroll. Any idea why it is doing this and how I can get it to stop? 

A second strange behavior. Sometimes when I'm scrolling in the piano roll, the scrolling becomes painfully slow and lags 5-10 second behind the movements I'm making with the scroll functions of my mouse (this is using the scroll functions of the Apple magic mouse). (I have to stop and wait for it to catch up.) This doesn't happen all the time, but once it starts happening after I open a project the more it will continue to happen. Again, does anyone know what might be going on?


----------



## jbuhler

So I've now been working with SO4 for about a month on a largish orchestral project, and really I'm having all sorts of problems that seem as best I can tell related to the size of the project. The music editor is excruciatingly slow to respond both in editing automation and navigation. (Scrolling from one part of the music to another part is barely functional at all.) Quantize is only working intermittently. It is slow to output mixdowns and stems, frequently pausing for as long as 30 seconds several times while creating in a 6 minute wav file for no reason I can figure out. 

It shouldn't be a memory issue as the iMac has 64GB of memory and is only using 35GB of it on this project. (The project is using about 100 tracks and another 10GB of memory is being used by the system and other programs.) But the machine behaving a lot like when I only had 32GB and would be using all of it. I have none of these issues in Logic. 

So I continue to think the S04 is really just not yet suited to deal with the complexity of large templates of VIs and I will be reverting to Logic for large projects after this. Beyond the performance issues I'm having, I also think the midi editing remains inadequate. The automation lanes continue to be a mess imho and only have one window for music editing remains a pain. Also the manual is completely inadequate, leaving much of the functionality of the program undocumented.


----------



## Lukas

jbuhler said:


> I also think the midi editing remains inadequate. The automation lanes continue to be a mess imho


Details please!


----------



## chocobitz825

jbuhler said:


> So I've now been working with SO4 for about a month on a largish orchestral project, and really I'm having all sorts of problems that seem as best I can tell related to the size of the project. The music editor is excruciatingly slow to respond both in editing automation and navigation. (Scrolling from one part of the music to another part is barely functional at all.) Quantize is only working intermittently. It is slow to output mixdowns and stems, frequently pausing for as long as 30 seconds several times while creating in a 6 minute wav file for no reason I can figure out.
> 
> It shouldn't be a memory issue as the iMac has 64GB of memory and is only using 35GB of it on this project. (The project is using about 100 tracks and another 10GB of memory is being used by the system and other programs.) But the machine behaving a lot like when I only had 32GB and would be using all of it. I have none of these issues in Logic.
> 
> So I continue to think the S04 is really just not yet suited to deal with the complexity of large templates of VIs and I will be reverting to Logic for large projects after this. Beyond the performance issues I'm having, I also think the midi editing remains inadequate. The automation lanes continue to be a mess imho and only have one window for music editing remains a pain. Also the manual is completely inadequate, leaving much of the functionality of the program undocumented.



Some points I agree with but by everything I’ve seen so far, it seems like Studio One is not a match for your preferred workflow. No doubt more changes will come to later versions as people keep contributing to the forums, but for whatever reason it seems like S1 is not a great match for your system/workflow. Logic is great though. If it works, why change?


----------



## jbuhler

chocobitz825 said:


> Some points I agree with but by everything I’ve seen so far, it seems like Studio One is not a match for your preferred workflow. No doubt more changes will come to later versions as people keep contributing to the forums, but for whatever reason it seems like S1 is not a great match for your system/workflow. Logic is great though. If it works, why change?


Why change? Good question. Because there are things about SO I like a lot, such as the scratch pads and how the arrangement track works, and even though I don’t like the fact that the music editor is limited to one window I do like the way it works in other respects. I also find SO works really well for me on modest sized projects. And the reason I chose to work with Studio One on this project is I was curious how well it could handle a large project now and I knew I’d want to be using the scratch pads. (And indeed I have 32 of them at the moment.)

But really the thing that is making SO unworkable for this project is the sluggishness, and within the sluggishness the scrolling is driving me batty. I scroll with one swipe on the mouse (Apple Magic Mouse) and it takes a good 15 seconds before the screen stops moving and of course it’s not at all positioned properly. Similar problem in the automation lanes. I click to create an edit point and the dot shows up 3 seconds later. I move the dot and the dot moves 3 seconds later. This makes for very tedious editing and I’m not sure what’s making everything so unresponsive except the size of the project since I don’t have these issues in other SO projects.

Today quantization stopped working too until I restarted. But about an hour later it stopped working again. I have no idea what’s up with this and as far as I’m aware it’s new behavior. (It started before I updated though so it wasn’t the update.)

Also when I click on a region in the arrange window the music editor is not opening to that region but is instead opening to a different place on the track.

The music editor follow cursor button keeps automatically disengaging and I’m not sure why. Like the quantization issue this one is new behavior for me. 

I bring this up not to complain but to report on my experience with a large orchestral template since that’s the topic of the thread. Though if anyone has ideas about why it’s so unresponsive or how to address the issue I’d be happy to hear them.


----------



## chocobitz825

jbuhler said:


> Why change? Good question. Because there are things about SO I like a lot, such as the scratch pads and how the arrangement track works, and even though I don’t like the fact that the music editor is limited to one window I do like the way it works in other respects. I also find SO works really well for me on modest sized projects. And the reason I chose to work with Studio One on this project is I was curious how well it could handle a large project now and I knew I’d want to be using the scratch pads. (And indeed I have 32 of them at the moment.)
> 
> But really the thing that is making SO unworkable for this project is the sluggishness, and within the sluggishness the scrolling is driving me batty. I scroll with one swipe on the mouse (Apple Magic Mouse) and it takes a good 15 seconds before the screen stops moving and of course it’s not at all positioned properly. Similar problem in the automation lanes. I click to create an edit point and the dot shows up 3 seconds later. I move the dot and the dot moves 3 seconds later. This makes for very tedious editing and I’m not sure what’s making everything so unresponsive except the size of the project since I don’t have these issues in other SO projects.
> 
> Today quantization stopped working too until I restarted. But about an hour later it stopped working again. I have no idea what’s up with this and as far as I’m aware it’s new behavior. (It started before I updated though so it wasn’t the update.)
> 
> Also when I click on a region in the arrange window the music editor is not opening to that region but is instead opening to a different place on the track.
> 
> The music editor follow cursor button keeps automatically disengaging and I’m not sure why. Like the quantization issue this one is new behavior for me.
> 
> I bring this up not to complain but to report on my experience with a large orchestral template since that’s the topic of the thread. Though if anyone has ideas about why it’s so unresponsive or how to address the issue I’d be happy to hear them.




no criticism intended. Its very unusual, and its hard to sort out why you're having such problems. I cant say its large projects, because my system with 128GB RAM has never stuttered like that...so perhaps its a matter of project size, and resource management within your system. Its very possible there are some Studio One resource management problems that people may experience depending on their system. Its very perplexing.


----------



## samphony

Maybe it’s a macOS related issue? It also depends if VEP is involved and if the instruments used inside s1 are vst or au?


----------



## jbuhler

samphony said:


> Maybe it’s a macOS related issue? It also depends if VEP is involved and if the instruments used inside s1 are vst or au?


No VEP. All instruments are running VST. It may be a MacOS issue but if so it's manifesting only with S1 since the machine has no issue with Logic. Besides losing quantization, it's also acting strangely with merge events. When I tried to merge regions, S1 instead deleted them. This happened on four tracks, while all the other tracks behaved normally. It's all very strange.

On the other hand, S1 crashed so hard earlier tonight that it crashed the whole machine. It's really behaving as though it is running out of memory even though the activity monitor says the machine has 20GB free. I would think it might be faulty RAM, except I haven't had an issue with Logic. I may well test it tomorrow.


----------



## jonathanwright

Many moons ago (so it may be different now), I found that S1 was far more stable on my system when I always used VST plugins, rather than AU.

When I used AU, it crashed constantly.


----------



## Gunvor

jbuhler said:


> No VEP. All instruments are running VST. It may be a MacOS issue but if so it's manifesting only with S1 since the machine has no issue with Logic. Besides losing quantization, it's also acting strangely with merge events. When I tried to merge regions, S1 instead deleted them. This happened on four tracks, while all the other tracks behaved normally. It's all very strange.
> 
> On the other hand, S1 crashed so hard earlier tonight that it crashed the whole machine. It's really behaving as though it is running out of memory even though the activity monitor says the machine has 20GB free. I would think it might be faulty RAM, except I haven't had an issue with Logic. I may well test it tomorrow.



I don't run my SO on a mac but a win 7 machine. I encountered a similar behavior with sluggishness and crashes when using vst3 instead of vst2 with certain plugins.


----------



## jbuhler

Gunvor said:


> I don't run my SO on a mac but a win 7 machine. I encountered a similar behavior with sluggishness and crashes when using vst3 instead of vst2 with certain plugins.


They are almost all Kontakt VST2. I think the Spitfire player is VST3. I may try disabling those and seeing if it improves performance. Thanks!


----------



## samphony

jbuhler said:


> No VEP. All instruments are running VST. It may be a MacOS issue but if so it's manifesting only with S1 since the machine has no issue with Logic. Besides losing quantization, it's also acting strangely with merge events. When I tried to merge regions, S1 instead deleted them. This happened on four tracks, while all the other tracks behaved normally. It's all very strange.
> 
> On the other hand, S1 crashed so hard earlier tonight that it crashed the whole machine. It's really behaving as though it is running out of memory even though the activity monitor says the machine has 20GB free. I would think it might be faulty RAM, except I haven't had an issue with Logic. I may well test it tomorrow.



Did you test your song = template/project with the newest 4.5.2?


----------



## jbuhler

samphony said:


> Did you test your song = template/project with the newest 4.5.2?


Yes. No change in basic behavior. 

Besides testing the RAM and stripping out the VST3 instruments I may try removing the scratch pads and opening a new large template and see if I have the same kinds of issues.


----------



## Minko

Quick two cents: VST3 is most stable in S1 for me. My instruments are in VePro. My sessions are pretty small. I found the updates from this year more stable en enjoy working in S1. If you keep having problems, then switch.


----------



## Miklós Vigh

For S1 v5, Presonus recommends *here* "_Make sure that the processor supports Hyperthreading (SMT for AMD, as Hyperthreading is Intel's way of saying SMT) and that it natively runs at *3.0 GHz.* or higher._ "

I'm about to upgrade the processor in my *Mac Pro 6.1 *from *4 core E5-1620 V2 3.7 GHz* to one of the following processors:


*Cores**CPU-Model**GHz**Watt*12 coreE5-2697 V22.7130W10 coreE5-2690 V23.0130W8 coreE5-2667 V23.3130W

As S1 users, using templates with relatively large number of instrument tracks, some of you still might use Mac Pro 6.1 without a secondary computer for midi to audio rendering.

If so, which processor would you choose?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## dcoscina

jonathanwright said:


> Many moons ago (so it may be different now), I found that S1 was far more stable on my system when I always used VST plugins, rather than AU.
> 
> When I used AU, it crashed constantly.


I'm finding OPUS crashing when used as an AU plug in the M1 native version. Unfortunately many VST plug ins down show up in M1 mode so I either have to switch with Rosetta mode to run OPUS (but then Spitfire Abbey Road and BBCSO don't work) or just not use it. :(


----------



## samphony

Miklós Vigh said:


> For S1 v5, Presonus recommends *here* "_Make sure that the processor supports Hyperthreading (SMT for AMD, as Hyperthreading is Intel's way of saying SMT) and that it natively runs at *3.0 GHz.* or higher._ "
> 
> I'm about to upgrade the processor in my *Mac Pro 6.1 *from *4 core E5-1620 V2 3.7 GHz* to one of the following processors:
> 
> 
> *Cores**CPU-Model**GHz**Watt*12 coreE5-2697 V22.7130W10 coreE5-2690 V23.0130W8 coreE5-2667 V23.3130W
> 
> As S1 users, using templates with relatively large number of instrument tracks, some of you still might use Mac Pro 6.1 without a secondary computer for midi to audio rendering.
> 
> If so, which processor would you choose?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


I choose the 12 core back then. If i where you i would go with the 10core.


----------



## GlassHarmonicist

Can anyone tell me how to access/edit Spitfire Chamber Strings "Intensity" data in Studio One 5.4.1?

SCS manual states this is CC#15.

I'm not clear on how the the items in the "Automation" list window in Studio One map to a specific VI. It does show, for instance, "Vibrato", "Expression(MSB)", also "Release", and "Tightness", but no entry for "Intensity".

A little lost here. Also noticing "Expression" lane doesn't seem to do anything, whereas "Expression(MSB)" seems to map to CC#11.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

GlassHarmonicist said:


> Can anyone tell me how to access/edit Spitfire Chamber Strings "Intensity" data in Studio One 5.4.1?
> 
> SCS manual states this is CC#15.
> 
> I'm not clear on how the the items in the "Automation" list window in Studio One map to a specific VI. It does show, for instance, "Vibrato", "Expression(MSB)", also "Release", and "Tightness", but no entry for "Intensity".
> 
> A little lost here. Also noticing "Expression" lane doesn't seem to do anything, whereas "Expression(MSB)" seems to map to CC#11.


following.


----------



## cedricm

DS_Joost said:


> Coming from a Studio One user, I'd strongly suggest Cubase for this sort of thing. It's just better and more stable at it. Studio One is good at many things except CPU performance and save times. Abysmal imo. I have been using it for a long time now, and I love it, but it's not ready for prime time regarding orchestral stuff. I myself am seeing myself strongly looking at Reaper again for that purpose, no matter how strongly I can feel against that DAW sometimes.
> 
> One day, I'm sure it'll click...


I'm building a mega template for BBCSO Pro, I'll keep you in the loop.
Studio One has the potential to become at least as good as Cubase Pro for very large templates - sound variations, no FX tracks limits I'm aware of and more.
However, the performance is very bad for simple things like filtering tracks above a few hundreds of tracks, so it's recommended to wait for when Presonus takes an interest in this clientele.
Other improvements woumd be to choose wider channels in the mixing console, or to show channel names on 2 or 3 lines. 
These improvements would really be quite easy to programmers, so the ball is on Presonus side.


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## GlassHarmonicist

Thanks! I guess I'll just take a wait and see attitude re: Studio One. For instance, I sure we they would implement a MIDI event window.

Seems like not too many people are completely at home in any one DAW at this point. I find myself bouncing between S1 and Logic to try to get all my articulations and dynamics behaving. I'm starting in Dorico, which has evolved to doing a pretty good job, but there's still a tremendous amount of editing in the DAW to get things playing correctly.


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## Al Maurice

GlassHarmonicist said:


> Can anyone tell me how to access/edit Spitfire Chamber Strings "Intensity" data in Studio One 5.4.1?
> 
> SCS manual states this is CC#15.
> 
> I'm not clear on how the the items in the "Automation" list window in Studio One map to a specific VI. It does show, for instance, "Vibrato", "Expression(MSB)", also "Release", and "Tightness", but no entry for "Intensity".
> 
> A little lost here. Also noticing "Expression" lane doesn't seem to do anything, whereas "Expression(MSB)" seems to map to CC#11.



*Steps to reproduce:*

i). Go to the lanes at the bottom of the midi edit window.

ii). Click on the *ellipsis icon bottom* left, will open up the automation selection panel.

iii). In the right hand section, scroll down until you see *#015* or any other CC you want to add, some named like Expression others not.

iv). Click the* add button*. And close the selection window with *Close button* (bottom right of panel).

v). Tab should show up at far end of lanes, with* 015*.

vi). Write in the *automation *in your favourite way.

Hope that helps -- see image below for an example:


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## Zoot_Rollo

Al Maurice said:


> *Steps to reproduce:*
> 
> i). Go to the lanes at the bottom of the midi edit window.
> 
> ii). Click on the *ellipsis icon bottom* left, will open up the automation selection panel.
> 
> iii). In the right hand section, scroll down until you see *#015* or any other CC you want to add, some named like Expression others not.
> 
> iv). Click the* add button*. And close the selection window with *Close button* (bottom right of panel).
> 
> v). Tab should show up at far end of lanes, with* 015*.
> 
> vi). Write in the *automation *in your favourite way.
> 
> Hope that helps -- see image below for an example:


or you can drag to the track using the hand in the upper left.

i was able to get CC15 working, but not really noticing any difference with the INTENSITY parameter in SA Chamber Strings Legato patches.


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## GlassHarmonicist

Thanks Al Maurice! I was able to add the lane in question, but as Zoot_Rollo mentioned, it seems to have no effect on playback.


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