# To Sub or Not to Sub



## José Herring (Oct 23, 2010)

Been doing some research on the frequencies of musical notes. I've never bothered to look at it other than to know that "A" is around 440 to 446 depending on where you live. Once I looked at the full range of the scale I noticed that the lowest contra bass note (C0) is around 16hz. The C above that which is the lowest note for cello of course is around 32hz and the C above that is of course around 64hz. Which got me thinking.

My little 6.5 inch speakers reliably go down to 50hz and with the port extension goes down to about 40hz. I had flirted a few years back about adding a sub but ultimately decided against it. But now I realize that the bottom end of the cello range and most of the contrabass range is being missed.

But I'm perplexed. How is that I can hear these notes coming through my speakers? Am I actually hearing the fundamental or just the overtones. I've often had a hard time distinguishing the octave down below and perhaps this is why. I'm not looking for a sub system that will go down to at least 20hz, but this is just an odd thing to me. Is this why the bass always sounds weak in orchestral recordings? The speakers don't actually extend down to the lower frequencies in most playback systems.

Help me understand this.

best,

Jose


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## Revson (Oct 23, 2010)

Psychoacoustic phenomenon I believe...brain fills in the fundamental when the rest of the harmonic series is present. Some bass enhancers work on this principle, like Waves Renn-something or other, if I recall.


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## autopilot (Oct 23, 2010)

Hey Jose - 

I think your maths is out on the Cs 

Middle C (C4) is about 261 (not exactly) - call it 256 for easy maths

C3 is 128 

Cello C is 64 ish

Contra C is 32 .... and the human ear can't hear below 20hz anyway

But yes to the other bits  It's also why Bass drums often sound like the fundamental of whatever you add them to.

I think a sub is useful not so much for pitched material but for knowing you have balances correct for things like bass, kick drum and in partic electronic kicks and basses which may not have any upper harmonics at all. 

Not that I have one btw, but when I've taken my music to big stinkin' pa's that do, I often find surprises down there... that make me think I should use one for that kind of material


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## José Herring (Oct 23, 2010)

My math off an octave. Sorry about that. Just shows my confusion down the bass area.

Any way that being said then most of the bass notes below the cello lowest c would fall off the spectrum. Psycho acoustics or not it's a bit scary not to have the notes there. I guess the thing to do would then at least get a sub or full range speaker that can speak down to at least 32hz.

I say this because often I've pushed the bass up to hear the bass notes, now I realize that they're just not there period.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 23, 2010)

I've never heard of a 6.5" speaker being accurate down to 40Hz, Jose. 60HZ is usually about it; you probably don't hear vocal pops and hammer thuds on them.


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## drumman (Oct 23, 2010)

Interesting information. Thanks for posing the question because it makes me wonder...

I have a pair of KRK RP8-G2 speakers. They have a low end spec of 45 Hz. I know there are finer monitors available, but I am happy with these. I do mostly pop/rock and it's as a hobbyist so I don't have to be overly demanding. But I would like to know that I'm hearing all I should.

Any suggestions if I should consider a sub-woofer?


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## jleckie (Oct 23, 2010)

I have the KRk's as well. Verty interested in any feedback on subs as well.


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## José Herring (Oct 23, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Oct 23 said:


> I've never heard of a 6.5" speaker being accurate down to 40Hz, Jose. 60HZ is usually about it; you probably don't hear vocal pops and hammer thuds on them.



I never said they were accurate down to 40. I think they say it's usable down to like 55hz or so. But they extend down to 40 through the port. So it rumbles the air down to 40 which is about exactly how it sounds. Like a low rumble. :roll:


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## Andreas Moisa (Oct 24, 2010)

I recently added a sub to my Genelec 1030 and it's a whole different experience. The music sounds more complete.


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## Danny_Owen (Oct 24, 2010)

I have to agree- with monitors that small I'd get a sub.

Currently running Adam A7s, I used them for 2 years without a sub, and every time I played back on bigger speakers with a wider frequency range the bass just sounded wrong- either to big or too small, but never quite right. Since getting the Adam Sub8 my bass response has been a lot more accurate and I've also been able to mix faster as a result.

That's not to say it's perfect. In total the Adam A7s + Sub8 cost about £1000. If I could do it all again I think I'd get the A8X instead and forget the sub, which would also be about £1000. The A8X's weren't around when I was buying though. Adding a sub can bring a world of other problems, and until you've got it set up right can be just as problematic as helpful. I had to get some acoustic treatment to get the best out of the setup, it was just a mess without it.

Having said that, I personally couldn't go back to just the A7s now, I need to know what's going on 'down there'.

If you have Spotify I suggest running this test. http://open.spotify.com/track/2tY2R9SwRVBaXNdu4Nh2ej

The track is '10Hz Bass Test' by 'Bass Society', in case you don't have Spotify and you can get hold of it by other means.

It's a silly intro but this will show you exactly what your speakers can do bass wise. I currently can't hear the bottom note much past about 1:12 on my setup, it becomes very quiet then dies away, but on my Beyerdynamic 150 headphones I can hear all the way to the end of the test (the headphones stretch right down to 5hz I believe). Before I got the sub it was dying out even before 1:12. All the notes should be playing back at equal volume if you have perfect bass representation (this is how it is on my headphones).


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## JohnG (Oct 24, 2010)

Danny_Owen @ 24th October 2010 said:


> I need to know what's going on 'down there'.



I think that says it all, with a nice touch of humour for those inclined to the puerile. Not that anyone here would be.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Oct 24, 2010)

Do we need to hear anything below 20 Hz?

I thought anything below 20 Hz got cut off anyway in the end. But I have been wrong before!


Tanuj.


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## José Herring (Oct 24, 2010)

vibrato @ Sun Oct 24 said:


> Do we need to hear anything below 20 Hz?
> 
> I thought anything below 20 Hz got cut off anyway in the end. But I have been wrong before!
> 
> ...



Not below 20 hz but definitely to 32hz.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 24, 2010)

Jose, do you hear vocal pops with those speakers? Those are around 55Hz, and dollars to donuts you don't.

Here's a good test: go to iTunes and listen to Skater Boi by Avril Lavigne. The first four 8th note Ds in the verse have an extra sub bass sound the first time that riff plays. That should be 38Hz, and if you hear it then the claim that there's usable response down to 40 is true.


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## José Herring (Oct 24, 2010)

Yeah I can hear vocal pops quite clearly.

My speakers do hit 55hz without much effort. That's kind of the cut off point. Below that it starts to turn to mud and gets boomy.

My speakers claim a frequency response from 65hz to 20khz. But, a frequency range from 42hz to 21khz. I don't quite understand the difference. But I figured the port tuning brings it down to 42hz and that's why they are boomy down there.

Here are the specs: http://www.jblpro.com/pages/recording/4200.htm

edit: I'll do the Itunes listening test tomorrow morning. Thanks!


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## germancomponist (Oct 25, 2010)

You only can mix things well if you are able to hear it all what you are mixing. And especially the deep bass mixing is very important. Deep bass uses a lot of power in your mix.

Listen to this audio file and watch to your meters: http://www.box.net/shared/uu0bnsr7l6


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## midphase (Oct 25, 2010)

A lot of it also depends on your room. 

When I was in my previous studio, I could rely on my Events 8" to hear pretty low end stuff, well enough to mix accurately.

Since I moved to my new space which is a lot bigger, I realized that I wasn't really hearing the low stuff. When I got Omnisphere and Trillian, this became a big enough issue on my mixing that I had to go out and get a sub to help get that low end energy in the room so that I could hear what is actually going on in the mix.

So in essence, it's really up to several factors including your room and how well you mix. Let's not forget that some of the best albums of the 90's were mixed on Yamaha NS 10s which I believe have 5" woofers.


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## germancomponist (Oct 25, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Oct 25 said:


> A lot of it also depends on your room.
> 
> When I was in my previous studio, I could rely on my Events 8" to hear pretty low end stuff, well enough to mix accurately.
> 
> ...



+1

A good test it: Load my audio example or something else with deep basses into your audio player / 
daw, let it play and walk around in your room. Listen where you can hear the bass best.


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## José Herring (Oct 25, 2010)

@ Nick,

I can hear the subass on Skater Boy but it's not exactly clear. Just sounds like a short low 1/2 note pulse.

@ Germancomp.

I can hear something in that file but the speakers are struggling and are totally uneven in the response. Sounds like a low time warp effect. Kind of like when you hear subbass explosions through the wall coming from the action film playing in the theater adjacent to the one you're sitting in.

Jose


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## sinkd (Oct 27, 2010)

Hi Jose,

That mp3 should sound like music--the very highest frequencies of tambourine and strings as well as a discernable low pulse in G.

DS


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## P.T. (Oct 27, 2010)

When a note at 32 hz is played through your little speakers you will be hearing the 1st harmonic at 64hz. I don't know that your ear will hear it as if it was 32hz, but you will hear the note because of the harmonics. There will also be higher harmonics as well.

I tend to wonder about bass guitars with 6 strings that go down lower than most speakers can go. What is the purpose if people are only going to hear the harmonic an octave higher?


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## P.T. (Oct 27, 2010)

josejherring @ Sun Oct 24 said:


> Yeah I can hear vocal pops quite clearly.
> 
> My speakers do hit 55hz without much effort. That's kind of the cut off point. Below that it starts to turn to mud and gets boomy.
> 
> ...



The difference is in the +/- numbers.
They list the response with +/-2db and the and the range with -10. It would mean that it goes down to 42 hz, but the volume is down 10db at that frequency.
The 65-20k (+/-2db) would mean that from 65 to 20k the volume stays within + or - 2 db.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 27, 2010)

I still haven't found the right monitor / sub combo. I auditioned the 2 smallest Blue Sky systems with subs - the 30-60hz was stunning, but then it all went wrong up to 120 or so for me. I'm wondering about the Adam 8xs... reluctantly I'm concluding that anything less than 1k just isn't going to cut it.

The whole area is tough. Who do you mix for? Loads of people have even PC setups with subs now, and they sound totally different from a typical modest hi-fi setup, let alone radio or TV. But I do know that there's nothing worse than overcooking the low end, playing it on modest speakers and hearing the cones fly apart...


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## midphase (Oct 27, 2010)

I think the trick is not to overdo the sub level. Keep the sub as a very SUBtle reminder of the low end information that is present in the mix, and not as part of the mix if you know what I mean.

Many people (including some engineers that I know) keep their sub level so high that it's impossible for anyone at home to hear the same mix. I find this to be silly and illogical. The sub should only be like a "spice" to the overall monitoring setup. 95% of the mix should be coming from your main monitors.


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## P.T. (Oct 27, 2010)

If 'the cones fly apart' on smaller speakers there may be too much energy at the higher bass frequencies in the 60-100 region.

If a speaker can't reproduce a low frequency, I doubt that frequency is harming the speaker.
Else, hoe could a portable radio with a 2" speaker play back any music without tearing apart?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 27, 2010)

> Let's not forget that some of the best albums of the 90's were mixed on Yamaha NS 10s which I believe have 5" woofers



Sure, but they always checked their mixes on the big monitors as well.

NS-10s are still very useful, because you have to work hard to make things sound good on them. And my theory about the reason is that apart from being midrange-forward, they don't have the dynamic range that higher-end models have. That forces you to make everything clear so that it's heard.

****

A friend of mine who mixed half the albums in the '80s and is still going strong bought - I'm not kidding - an $89 subwoofer at Cosco that he uses with his NS-10s. It works really well! The truth is that while there are differences between subwoofers, everything below about 80Hz is just a bunch of rumble, so the differences in sound are pretty small; what's important is the crossover, the way it integrates with the other speakers.

***

My main monitors are Blue Sky System Ones, which have a 12" sub and 6" sats. I'm extremely happy with the set-up, and the sub couldn't be better integrated.

Having said that - and I've posted this before - after hearing and (yes, I admit it) liking the UREI 813s at Mike Greene's studio, I won a lowball big for a pair of the smaller 809As on eBay (which I power with a really good Hafler amp that I already had). Of course they're not state-of-the-art by today's standards, but damn it I really like them! And the price I paid for them is laughable.

But here's the point: I discovered that there's a big difference between small speakers with a sub and big speakers. Of course you don't get the detail and imaging that the little Blue Sky system gives close up, but the bass is just overwhelmingly right. Small speakers plus a sub will play all the frequencies, but they just don't give you the kick in the chest, no matter how high the sub is turned up.

Mix on the little speakers; use big speakers for a reference - if you can.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 27, 2010)

> If a speaker can't reproduce a low frequency, I doubt that frequency is harming the speaker



It can, P.T., in fact the speaker is more likely to blow from all that power than one that can absorb it by moving back and forth.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 27, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Oct 27 said:


> Small speakers plus a sub will play all the frequencies, but they just don't give you the kick in the chest, no matter how high the sub is turned up.



Absolutely... that's the problem I had, I think. Kick in the chest is surely the higher bass frequencies? I tried various levels with the bluesky sub, and I could never get that frequency range sounding natural to me.

Incidentally, I've always thought low bass has little finesse, it just needs to a) be there and b) exactly as you say be integrated right, which in my experience is the really hard bit.


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## germancomponist (Oct 27, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Oct 27 said:


> > Let's not forget that some of the best albums of the 90's were mixed on Yamaha NS 10s which I believe have 5" woofers
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+1


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## José Herring (Oct 27, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Oct 27 said:


> > Let's not forget that some of the best albums of the 90's were mixed on Yamaha NS 10s which I believe have 5" woofers
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree completely. I go back and forth between getting a modern satellite sub combo or going for "vintage" large speakers with at least 10" woofers. I know that the new speakers are suppose to be more accurate, but maybe it's my old ears but vintage large speakers with a good amp sounds more natural to me. Mike's setup is a prime example. The say that the Urie's are not "that" accurate but the sound is so musical and pleasing and considering fact that 90% of the worlds greatest recorded music were done on what we consider vintage speakers I'm wondering if I should just go that route.

Also, I've often considered going for a good home theater sub to add to my setup. You can get some kick ass subs for $200 if you by direct from the manufacture like these guys: http://lavasubs.com/10_inch/powered_home_subwoofer.html


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 27, 2010)

> Kick in the chest is surely the higher bass frequencies?



It's a combination of frequencies that gives you the sensation of the impact, and I suspect there's more going on than that. And what I'm describing about the sound is definitely more than just the physical chest kick - which is probably a function of the amount of power in the appropriate band (most likely around 80Hz). It's the totality of the bass sound, possibly due to the effect of the cabinet and the way it intermingles with the higher frequencies. If you listen to a recorded bass - sampled or on a record - you simply know what that instrument sounds like in a way you just can't hear on NFMs with or without a sub. Same with a bass drum - or really everything at the bottom, the entire low end. It's a sound quality that goes beyond whether the frequencies are being reproduced.

Two other points:

1. While the fundamental of a bass drum is very low (you can beef up a bass drum with a gated sine wave at maybe 60Hz), there's a lot going on way up high - like 10kHz! That's where the point of the sound is. Same with bass guitar and other instruments. In fact, often the way to bring these instruments out in a mix is to find a clear frequency up there to boost - not just to raise the low end. (Which is not to say that you don't also need to EQ different bass frequencies to separate the kick from the bass.)

2. The sub actually responds lower than my 12" UREIs. Again, my guess is that it's the big ported cabinet that makes the big speakers sound natural, not the big driver.


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