# Why does Kontakt first instance take 45 seconds to load?



## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2021)

Any idea why the first instantiation of Kontakt takes a solid *45 seconds* to load?

*••• EDIT = SOLUTION FOUND! See post #83 for the answer (hint = it's .plist files) •••*

- If there are *no* other instances of Kontakt loaded, the first instance of either v5 or v6 of Kontakt takes exactly 40 seconds to load.

- If there *are* already other instances *of the same version* of Kontakt loaded, then loading another takes only a couple of seconds.

- These load times are the same whether inside Logic, inside VEPro (both AU and VST versions), or standalone.

- I do have a zillion Kontakt Player libraries installed via NI Access - could it be that the sheer number of installed libraries is causing the delay as Kontakt attempts to scan them / check their authorization status?

- I also have ten zillion non-Player libraries spread out across four 4tb SATA SSDs - could it be that Kontakt's files browser needs to scan mounted drives on startup even for these non-Player libraries?

- My QuickLoad database is not huge, but it's large - is this being scanned on startup and causing the delay?

- Are there any tweaks that can be made inside Kontakt, like re-building the DB file, changing anything in the Settings tab, etc. that could eliminate or reduce the delay?

System info = I'm on MacOS 10.14.6 (Mojave), Logic v10.4.8, Kontakt v5.8.1 and v6.6.1 (r139). Mac Pro 6,1 cylinder, 12-core, 64gb RAM. All Kontakt libraries are stored on four Samsung 860evo 4tb SATA SSDs in a pair of BlackMagic Multidock v2's daisy-chained to a single TB2 port on the Mac Pro cylinder, and these are *not* formatted as APFS.

This one is a real buzz kill, driving me nuts over here!

This might be one for @EvilDragon - even though you're not on Mac, do you have any ideas?


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## Alchemedia (Oct 12, 2021)

> I do have a zillion Kontakt Player libraries installed via NI Access - could it be that the sheer number of installed libraries is causing the delay as Kontakt attempts to scan them / check their authorization status?


Batch resave dramatically reduces load time by mapping to samples.


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## babylonwaves (Oct 12, 2021)

I think it's caching directory info and other resources. the cold load time gets really bad when you have a lot of external discs connected. every sub sequential load benefits from the cache already build. it seems that you can load the standalone version while you boot logic and then (cold) loading kontakt in the DAW works faster-


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## musicmaker9000 (Oct 12, 2021)

All NI plugins take much longer than other plugins to load, for me at least


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## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Batch resave dramatically reduces load time by mapping to samples.


Yeah, I know about that, but I'm talking about *cold* *load* times - when you load and empty instance of Kontakt with no instruments inside it, just choosing Kontakt from the plugin menu in VEPro or Logic. This delay also happens when just launching the standalone app, which then comes up with no instruments loaded.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2021)

musicmaker9000 said:


> All NI plugins take much longer than other plugins to load, for me at least


Me too - NI and Arturia are the slowest. I think Arturia is slow because it's checking authorization status.


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## Hunter123 (Oct 12, 2021)

Just a guess but it may be related to how many Quick Load's you have saved. I've noticed that the more I have the more time it takes for the 1st kontakt instance to load.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2021)

babylonwaves said:


> I think it's caching directory info and other resources. the cold load time gets really bad when you have a lot of external discs connected. every sub sequential load benefits from the cache already build. it seems that you can load the standalone version while you boot logic and then (cold) loading kontakt in the DAW works faster-


Well, I tried having standalone instances of v5 and v6 loaded already before launching Logic, and the slow load time was the same. I also tried having an instance of VEPro running with v5 and v6 loaded.... same result.

It seems that whatever caching is happening is separate for the Logic, VEPro, and standalone instances of Kontakt - like, they're not sharing a common cache of whatever it is that's slowing the first instance down. Also, v5 and v6 seem to keep separate caches, so having v5 already loaded doesn't speed up the first cold load of v6 for instance.

Once a single instance of either version of Kontakt is loaded in Logic (or VEPro), subsequent instances of that same version load lickety-split, and switching tracks while the plugin window is open with chain-link turned on also happens super-fast. It's just that first cold load that's slow. Of course, this also means that closing a Logic project and opening another has the same cold-load delay, since Logic de-instanciates all plugins in the outgoing project and then re-instanciates them in the incoming one. Another argument for using VEPro I guess....


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## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2021)

Hunter123 said:


> Just a guess but it may be related to how many Quick Load's you have saved. I've noticed that the more I have the more time it takes for the 1st kontakt instance to load.


Good idea, but on my rig it didn't help. I moved the contents of the QuickLoad to another location, restarted everything, verified that the QuickLoad menus inside Kontakt were now empty, and saw that Kontakt had re-built the three folders (Multi / Bank / Instrument) and that those new ones were totally empty - but the long cold-load time stayed the same.

40 seconds. Arrrggh.


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## confusedsheep (Oct 12, 2021)

standalone kontakt should load in 3-5 seconds max. that is seriously weird. do you have some kind of process monitoring tool, maybe you could identify the culprit thru cpu/disk usage per process?


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## Kent (Oct 12, 2021)

@tack didn’t you once do some deep-dive testing on this behavior?

(I might be completely misremembering or conflating you with someone else. Apologies if so!)


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## Christof (Oct 12, 2021)

Your empty Kontakt instance takes 40 seconds to load?
On my system it takes one second...strange, maybe you should try to reset Kontakt preferences or remove Kontakt from the plugin folder and do a fresh AU Scan within Logic and put it back again.


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## lux (Oct 12, 2021)

could it be that one or more installed libraries are located on a drive that's having issues? That could eventually explain the additional time. A possible test would be temporarely disable the external drives and see how much time it takes to load, then reactivating drives one at a time and try again (not sure wether this is possible or not on Mac as I'm a PC guy). At least that's what I would try myself.


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## easyrider (Oct 12, 2021)

Windows 10 here takes about 3 seconds


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## musicmaker9000 (Oct 12, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Windows 10 here takes about 3 seconds


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## jcrosby (Oct 12, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Any idea why the first instantiation of Kontakt takes a solid *45 seconds* to load?



I just timed load times for me in Logic and here's what I get...

Load times are the same in Logic 10.5.1 & 10.6.3 so it's not Logic...

Kontakt 5 = 5-ish seconds
Kontakt 6 = 3.5 seconds.

It could be that Kontakt 6 is a little snappier.... But I actually think it's Quickload. 
I have about 1/3 less patches in Kontakt 6's Quickload vs Kontakt 5's.

Any chance you have a huge Quickload folder?


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## Nimrod7 (Oct 12, 2021)

On a Mac Pro 2019 here, Big Sur, does 50 seconds or so to open, standalone, or in DAW (Logic).
I have a ton of libraries.

Actually I was thinking to open a thread today, glad that have been opened. Looking forward to see if there is a walkaround.


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## Braveheart (Oct 12, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Good idea, but on my rig it didn't help. I moved the contents of the QuickLoad to another location, restarted everything, verified that the QuickLoad menus inside Kontakt were now empty, and saw that Kontakt had re-built the three folders (Multi / Bank / Instrument) and that those new ones were totally empty - but the long cold-load time stayed the same.
> 
> 40 seconds. Arrrggh.


You should put some Hammers into those loading times.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2021)

confusedsheep said:


> standalone kontakt should load in 3-5 seconds max. that is seriously weird. do you have some kind of process monitoring tool, maybe you could identify the culprit thru cpu/disk usage per process?


MacOS Activity Monitor shows no spurious processes as Kontakt standalone starts up. Kontakt takes 99.9% cpu as it's starting, but after about 10 seconds it turns red in the list and its name changes to "Kontakt (not responding)".

However that may just be MacOS assuming it's locked up because it's doing nothing that's visible to the OS until it's finished caching or doing whatever it's doing in the background as it loads. After the usual 40 seconds it does in fact load and its entry in the Activity Monitor list changes back to "Kontakt" minus the (not responding). So that's not alarming.


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## Markrs (Oct 12, 2021)

I wonder if @EvilDragon is able to help with this, as he works for NI and is crazy knowledgeable about Kontakt.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2021)

lux said:


> could it be that one or more installed libraries are located on a drive that's having issues? That could eventually explain the additional time. A possible test would be temporarely disable the external drives and see how much time it takes to load, then reactivating drives one at a time and try again (not sure wether this is possible or not on Mac as I'm a PC guy). At least that's what I would try myself.


All drives are happy and healthy. Four Samsung 860evo 4tb SATA SSDs in a BlackMagic MultiDock v2 connected via TB2. Once Kontakt is up, loading .nki files is super-fast, as is switching between instances in Logic. It's only that first cold load that takes 40 seconds.

Dismounting and puling the drives from the MultiDock makes no difference in Kontakt's cold load times - standalone, AU in Logic, VST or AU in VEPro - makes no difference. 

Clearing the QuickLoad folders, wiping Kontakt's internal database, dismounting library drives, changing number of cores in MultiProcessor Support (standalone) - none of these make any difference.

40 seconds.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I wonder if @EvilDragon is able to help with this, as he works for NI and is crazy knowledgeable about Kontakt.


That's what I'm hoping! I tagged him in my first post hoping he'll chime in - but I know he's on PC and I don't think he has a MacOS rig.... but still I'm hoping....


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## Markrs (Oct 12, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> That's what I'm hoping! I tagged him in my first post hoping he'll chime in - but I know he's on PC and I don't think he has a MacOS rig.... but still I'm hoping....


Apologies I missed that you had tagged him. Finger crossed he can sort the issue out.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2021)

Welp, I've re-installed Kontakt v5.8.1 and v6.6.1 via NI Access - no change to the 40-second cold load time.

Deleted com.native-instruments.Kontakt.plist files, removed LibraryCache folders, yadda yadda yadda - no change.

I know it's supposedly fine to have v5 and v6 co-existing on the same machine, but is there any known weirdness that occurs from having both with massive amounts of Player libraries, or massive QuickLoad lists, or just massive amounts of .nki files on library drives?

I'm at the end of my rope!

This is the kind of crap that keeps me using EXS....


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## jcrosby (Oct 12, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> All drives are happy and healthy. Four Samsung 860evo 4tb SATA SSDs in a BlackMagic MultiDock v2 connected via TB2. Once Kontakt is up, loading .nki files is super-fast, as is switching between instances in Logic. It's only that first cold load that takes 40 seconds.
> 
> Dismounting and puling the drives from the MultiDock makes no difference in Kontakt's cold load times - standalone, AU in Logic, VST or AU in VEPro - makes no difference.
> 
> ...


Very very odd... Quickload has been the only variable where I've noticed any potential for a difference other than any small improvements that may have been made in v6 vs v5... And despite the difference between 5/6 being about a second, I wouldn't have known it was there if I didn't actually time it...So sounds like something's off... Hope you get it sorted....


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## babylonwaves (Oct 13, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Well, I tried having standalone instances of v5 and v6 loaded already before launching Logic, and the slow load time was the same. I also tried having an instance of VEPro running with v5 and v6 loaded.... same result.


here's what I see (12TB SSD, 8TB HDD mounted):

*In Logic*

Cold Load: 22.7s
Warm Load: 2.7s (after loading an instance in Logic first)
Warm Load: 6.1s (after loading a standalone instance of Kontakt standalone first)

*Stand Alone:*

Cold Load 23s
Warm Load 6.7s (after loading an instance in Logic first)
Warm Load: 5.2s (after loading a standalone instance of Kontakt first)


*In the end I've unmounted the HDDs (only SSDs now): *

Cold Load Logic: 8.8s
Warm Load Logic: 1.9s

btw: I have disabled both "Show Network drives" and "Show removable Drives" in Files > View. My database is completely empty and KMS is off. No Quick Load items.


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## EvilDragon (Oct 13, 2021)

Uhhh honestly (and unfortunately) I have no idea... How are the drives formatted? Unsure if that would play into things that much but you never know.

BTW the library cache folders are helping speed up loading of Kontakt, in fact.


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## wolf (Oct 13, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Any idea why the first instantiation of Kontakt takes a solid *45 seconds* to load?


What greatly helped on my setup (at least that's what I believe) is:
a) I unchecked almost all libraries in Settings - Libraries. I access everything via Quickload. My (completely made up) theory is that the images take extra memory + load time. I too believe a large Quickload directory is not the problem here
b) Settings - Database: uncheck "Include samples in database scan" and Remove all (or most) database folders. That means the search functions won't work, but I don't need them because of Quickload.

not sure if related, but I also disabled Usage Data tracking.


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## EvilDragon (Oct 13, 2021)

Usage data tracking doesn't really affect startup times, it might only very slightly affect closing times.

Libraries tab images are cached in the aforementioned library cache folder, which is faster than opening each individual .nicnt and looking for pics in them etc.

There are known issues with QL opening times if you have a bajillion entries - nothing is cached there (unfortunately).


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## Virtuoso (Oct 13, 2021)

This doesn't really help you, but just as a comparison, on my 2019 Mac Pro Kontakt loads in 6s in Logic with 153 libraries.


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## Illico (Oct 13, 2021)

Sorry for my ignorance. Is there an antivirus on Mac? I know on PC, sometime this could affect performance.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 13, 2021)

wolf said:


> What greatly helped on my setup (at least that's what I believe) is:
> a) I unchecked almost all libraries in Settings - Libraries. I access everything via Quickload. My (completely made up) theory is that the images take extra memory + load time. I too believe a large Quickload directory is not the problem here
> b) Settings - Database: uncheck "Include samples in database scan" and Remove all (or most) database folders. That means the search functions won't work, but I don't need them because of Quickload.
> 
> not sure if related, but I also disabled Usage Data tracking.


- Tried unchecking every single library in Settings > Libraries = no change in cold load time.

- Tried unchecking "Include samples in database scan" as well as "Automatically add loaded / saved files to database" (database is already completely empty) = no change in cold load time.

- Tried unchecking "network drives" and "removable drives" in the files browser = no change in cold load time.

- Drives are formatted as MacOS Extended (Journaled).

- MacOS version is 10.14.6 Mojave.

- Unmounting and physically disconnecting every drive other than the boot drive, disabling Wi-Fi, disconnecting Cat5 network cables, disabling BlueTooth... I even disconnected every single drive, monitor, audio interface, USB hub, etc., and tried launching Logic + Kontakt standalone with only the Mac Pro boot drive, a single display, an Apple wired keyboard, and a trackball = no change in cold load time.

Since the cold load time is still 40 seconds even when there are no drives other than the boot drive mounted leads me to believe that it's not related to the speed or format of library drives. I swear that at one point I had Kontakt cold loading in 5 seconds on this rig, and for the life of me I can't figure out what's changed. I so rarely change anything on this rig (still on Mojave and Logic v10.4.8 !!!) that I'm grasping at straws.

I realize that I may not have the recommended settings under Settings > Engine and Settings > Memory. So what's the consensus for how the following items should be set?

- Settings > Engine > Multiprocessor Support = mine shows *** but I can choose any number of cores. What do we like for this setting on a 12-core Intel Mac running Logic?

- Settings > Memory > KMS (Kontakt Memory Server) = mine is off. Should I be using Memory Server, or is that a relic of days gone by?

- Settings > Memory > Instrument preload buffer size = mine is set to 60kb with the checkbox turned off. What do we like for this setting on a 12-core Intel Mac running Logic and loading samples from non-APFS SSD drives?


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## thesteelydane (Oct 13, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Welp, I've re-installed Kontakt v5.8.1 and v6.6.1 via NI Access - no change to the 40-second cold load time.
> 
> Deleted com.native-instruments.Kontakt.plist files, removed LibraryCache folders, yadda yadda yadda - no change.
> 
> ...


I think, without knowing what I’m talking about, that it’s the database file, and I don’t mean the quickload file, there’s another one. I never use the Kontakt database, so I disabled it and deleted it. Loading sped up considerably after that.


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## easyrider (Oct 13, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> - Tried unchecking every single library in Settings > Libraries = no change in cold load time.
> 
> - Tried unchecking "Include samples in database scan" as well as "Automatically add loaded / saved files to database" (database is already completely empty) = no change in cold load time.
> 
> ...


I have the solution…



Spoiler: Solution to slow Kontakt Load Times



Buy a PC and use windows 😝


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## YaniDee (Oct 13, 2021)

I moved my quick load folder, and most of my Kontakt issues (like endless QL scanning and crashing when I clicked the "x" close button) went away. I do miss it though, and I have QL backed up, if NI ever fixes this issue..However the load time is still very slow, esp in FL Studio 20, which can take over a minute for it to open.


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## Antkn33 (Oct 13, 2021)

This happened to me. I contacted ni and they had me delete some files and that fixed it. Sorry I can’t remember the files. But they were quick to respond


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## Antkn33 (Oct 13, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I have the solution…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then you will spend all your time installing updates and hotfixes


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## easyrider (Oct 13, 2021)

Antkn33 said:


> Then you will spend all your time installing updates and hotfixes


Myth….

Pro versions of windows allows end user to disable updates….

I'm Pretty active on quite a few forums….and the most people who complain are Mac users…..windows users just get on with it….


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## KerrySmith (Oct 13, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> That's what I'm hoping! I tagged him in my first post hoping he'll chime in - but I know he's on PC and I don't think he has a MacOS rig.... but still I'm hoping....


Maybe @Yaron_NI ?


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## YaniDee (Oct 13, 2021)

Antkn33 said:


> This happened to me. I contacted ni and they had me delete some files and that fixed it. Sorry I can’t remember the files. But they were quick to respond


Quite the tease..did the send you an email explaining the fix? I'm sure a lot of us would love to know it..


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## charlieclouser (Oct 13, 2021)

Antkn33 said:


> This happened to me. I contacted ni and they had me delete some files and that fixed it. Sorry I can’t remember the files. But they were quick to respond


Oh man, if you can find the email they sent with instructions about what files to delete, I'd be veeerrryyyy happy!

I've submitted a support ticket to NI, we'll see what happens.


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## Saxer (Oct 14, 2021)

About 8 seconds here in Logic - no Quickload instruments at all. Libraries spread over six different SSDs.

btw: my slowest loading instruments are from Audiomodeling


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## easyrider (Oct 14, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Oh man, if you can find the email they sent with instructions about what files to delete, I'd be veeerrryyyy happy!
> 
> I've submitted a support ticket to NI, we'll see what happens.


What is different now to then mate 


Post in thread 'Kontakt 6 Opens Slow?'
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/kontakt-6-opens-slow.88847/post-4503608


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## EvilDragon (Oct 14, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I so rarely change anything on this rig (still on Mojave and Logic v10.4.8 !!!) that I'm grasping at straws.



I wonder if your boot drive might be acting up, then, somehow?


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## Nimrod7 (Oct 14, 2021)

OS and hardware doesn't seem to impact the load times. I am on different Mac / OS than Charlie, still 50 secs or so to load.


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## jbuhler (Oct 14, 2021)

Saxer said:


> About 8 seconds here in Logic - no Quickload instruments at all. Libraries spread over six different SSDs.
> 
> btw: my slowest loading instruments are from Audiomodeling


Yes, this is me too, but I think even less than 8 seconds if we are just talking about loading an empty Kontakt into Logic cold from a template. I also have libraries spread across 6 different SSDs.

ETA: this is a 2020 i9 iMac running Catalina.


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## lumcas (Oct 14, 2021)

Kontakt 6 latest version - cold load 18 seconds, used to be much faster...
MacPro trashcan 6-core, RAM 64GB, Mojave 10.14.6, samples on fast TB2 SSDs, all MacOS Extended Journaled, system drive APFS

Following this thread with great interest...


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## charlieclouser (Oct 14, 2021)

easyrider said:


> What is different now to then mate
> 
> Post in thread 'Kontakt 6 Opens Slow?'
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/kontakt-6-opens-slow.88847/post-4503608


The only thing that's changed since the Yosemite days is my boot drive is now 2tb OWC Aura instead of factory Apple 1tb, and the Aura drive *must* be formatted as APFS, while the Apple drive was HFS. All storage drives are still HFS. The Mojave OS install on the APFS 2tb boot drive is a fully-manual clean install, not an upgrade or migration. I've re-installed both versions of Kontakt just yesterday. 

The OWC Aura drive is fine, showing 1,100 mb/sec on BlackMagic speed test and no repairs needed on Disk First Aid.

My previous post about everything being super-fast, even cold load times, was *after* I changed to the 2tb APFS boot drive... so my current configuration *did* work fine... until recently. Other than installing lots of new libraries, the only other change has been various point upgrades to Kontakt v6, from v6.2.1 all the way up to v6.6.1 - v5 is frozen at v5.8.1. Both v5 and v6 still cold load slowly. Something in v6 might be the culprit, but it's affecting v5.8.1 as well, and across all use cases - standalone, AU in Logic, AU or VST in VEPro or Live, etc.

I wish I knew what files, pref or plists or whatever, I could trash and force Kontakt to manually rebuild... or if there was and un-install procedure I could follow and then re-install again to see if that's the issue?


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## easyrider (Oct 14, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> The only thing that's changed since the Yosemite days is my boot drive is now 2tb OWC Aura instead of factory Apple 1tb, and the Aura drive *must* be formatted as APFS, while the Apple drive was HFS. All storage drives are still HFS. The Mojave OS install on the APFS 2tb boot drive is a fully-manual clean install, not an upgrade or migration. I've re-installed both versions of Kontakt just yesterday.
> 
> The OWC Aura drive is fine, showing 1,100 mb/sec on BlackMagic speed test and no repairs needed on Disk First Aid.
> 
> ...











How to Uninstall Native Instruments Software from a Mac Computer


Note: If you want to uninstall TRAKTOR software from a Mac computer, please refer to this article. The list below includes all files and folders created on your system after installing any of our p...




support.native-instruments.com





Worth a try?


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## babylonwaves (Oct 14, 2021)

I believe one aspect (HD/SSD speed aside) is how many Player libs are installed. Does Kontakt or Native Access show this number?


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## robgb (Oct 14, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Any idea why the first instantiation of Kontakt takes a solid *45 seconds* to load?
> 
> - If there are *no* other instances of Kontakt loaded, the first instance of either v5 or v6 of Kontakt takes exactly 40 seconds to load.
> 
> ...


I had this problem awhile back. What I did was go to the "Database" tab and clear everything out. The "Files" tab was also reduced down to the root folder. Then I restarted Kontakt and haven't had an issue since. There's apparently some issue with Kontakt trying to index all the folders, etc., every time it's opened.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 14, 2021)

Heard back from NI Support - they asked for a screenshot of my MacOS System Preferences > Security and Privacy > Privacy > Full Disc Access settings.

The only items on the list were:

com.bombich.ccchelper = checked (the scheduling agent for Carbon Copy Cloner?)
smbd = unchecked (used for network file copying between computers and turns on automatically?)
Disk Warrior = unchecked (used for rescuing dead discs, works great!)
Carbon Copy Cloner = checked 
ChronoSync = checked

I wonder if the Carbon Copy Cloner or ChronoSync background apps are holding up Kontakt launches? 

I haven't heard back from NI Support since I sent the screenshot, but I tried adding both standalone Kontakt apps to the list and turning their checkboxes to ON, but this did not change the cold load times.


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## MegaPixel (Oct 14, 2021)

Win10 here, kontakt vst3 1st load, takes anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds to load up for me, I have KU13CE fully installed.

But I have noticed it has slowed down a lot over the last month or 4, loading up instruments is also taking far longer. Win10 often puts it into a not responding state sometimes when loading instruments, which it never did before.

All is being loaded from an NVME & SSD.

Drag instrument over, wait, possible not responding warning, ignore and wait some more and eventually it will get there. Tested NVME & SSDs all fine...

Another NI tool I have issues with is Battery 4, if I ever use Battery 4, every time I load a track up that uses that I have to specify the folder where the battery 4 presets are installed so it can scan and find the samples. Which it has already scanned which I have done in it's pref's, multiple times.

NI... Going down hill...

Got my hands on UVI's Falcon recently, really do wish all the NI stuff was in that...


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## charlieclouser (Oct 14, 2021)

MegaPixel said:


> NI... Going down hill...


Thanks for the info, glad to know I'm not the only one with weird slow-down over the past few months - although my 40-second lag time is more severe than others are seeing....

Weirdly, quitting Kontakt standalone or removing the last instance of the plugin also takes longer than normal, but not 40 seconds. More like 5 or 10 seconds, but it used to be quicker.

Also, NI Access takes at least the same 40 seconds to "check for latest update" (maybe more?) before it finally begins automatically signing into my account. Then it takes another chunk of time to finally draw the thumbnails for all of the libraries in the list of installed libraries. This also seems to be a recent development....


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## MegaPixel (Oct 14, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Also, NI Access takes at least the same 40 seconds to "check for latest update" (maybe more?)


Oh god don't even get me started on NI Access...

I had an SSD failure about 6 months or so back and had to re-download everything (replaced with nvme drive), took me over a week (got really bad internet where I am)... But what was worse was:

1. On fresh windows I installed NI Access, it then wouldn't get past the updating screen. Apparently if you have 2 monitors plugged in it wont start up sometimes (but has been an issue since 2017 or earlier, there are posts all over their forums about it). I eventually had to install some c++ runtimes from 2007, boot into safe mode and disconnect my 2nd monitor and then it got me to the login screen.

2. Then the great download started, so booted back up all normal, logged in (and yes the list is a lot slower updating now too, but I think that's their servers). But it was downloading damaged / corrupt iso / zip file installers. NI Access is just downloading a iso or zip which contains 1 installer and some package files for the bulk of the data. The installer part was never corrupt as that always ran but the data packages some were. But it would say installed successfully after warning me something was corrupt or damaged... Which left me thinking... Did that install ok? Then after testing a few instruments out, yep, they were f****... So I re-downloaded them and same issue. Messaged NI support, and got a google drive share response about 2 months later... But luckily someone on kvr told me about the hidden folder it creates and it saves the download link in a hidden file. So I wrote a program to collect these download links. Uninstalled everything NI as I didn't write down which ones gave me the corrupt warning and used my program to record the link by pressing start and then stop on each download 1 by 1 till I got them all. Then used free download manager to que up the downloads.... Again...

Some were still corrupt but re-downloading them again got them to work, but some were just damaged and I couldn't get a good download. Then the google drive share links showed up and I got them from there, not the latest versions but at least I got the missing libraries back. So really didn't get everything NI working again for 2 or 3 months...

But then had to install them all manually... That took a while, and made sure I didn't put them on my boot drive this time... Not that it matters as it still installs stuff on your boot drive, so if I do format my boot drive or update to win 11, I would have to re-install them all again anyway...

Now I bought a external HD dock and HD to just store the NI downloads and updates, after install I unplug the drive and put it on a shelf for when it will be needed again...

Suffice to say, the whole experience put me off NI a lot...

Here was my fix, if anyone ever needs it...








KVR Forum: Native Instruments - Native Access not working (fresh install) - Page 5 - Instruments Forum


KVR Audio Forum - Native Instruments - Native Access not working (fresh install) - Page 5 - Instruments Forum




www.kvraudio.com


----------



## jcrosby (Oct 14, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Heard back from NI Support - they asked for a screenshot of my MacOS System Preferences > Security and Privacy > Privacy > Full Disc Access settings.
> 
> The only items on the list were:
> 
> ...


CCC 'helper' is what gives it permission to have full disk access. Totally fine..
And yes, smbd looks to be a system process needed for sharing files on a network, between machines, etc. (Usually stuff with a lowercase d means it's a system daemon... coreaudiod, launchd, etc.)

I use CCC and Kontakt is snappy here. I just tried running a backup and instantiating Kontakt for the 1st time in a new project while CCC was copying. Same overall time, about 5-ish seconds when 1st instantiated (Kontakt 5 & 6). So it seems like even if CCC were running you shouldn't see anything slow down. I don't use ChronoSync though so no idea there.. (Although I'm pretty sure I'm long overdo to buy this... )

I agree with ED that something weird _might_ be going on with your boot drive. It'd at least be a good idea to check.

You can run a demo of DriveDX, which checks your drive for all kinds of errors. It tells you what kicked off any errors if they're found, it will warn you if any of them indicate possible failure, and will give you info about the warning. The one you want to pay immediate attention to is _Warnings (life-span / pre-fail)_. But any warnings are a sign that the drive might be starting to develop issues...






DriveDx - the most advanced drive health diagnostics and monitoring utility


DriveDx - the most advanced drive health (S.M.A.R.T.) diagnostics and monitoring utility. Save yourself the data loss and downtime that is associated with unexpected SSD and HDD failures. Don't worry about losing your important data, music, and photographs.




binaryfruit.com





(DriveDX has saved me from a few potentially serious drive failures... It's never given me a false positive, and back in the days of spinners if it kicked up a warning, a drive would often fail within a few weeks to a month after the 1st warning... It also kicked up a warning on an NVMe blade a few years back I had on a SQUID, within a week or so that blade randomly died... It does exactly what it says on the tin, and is well worth the price of admission if it's the kind of thing you'd find useful to have on hand...)


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## Akarin (Oct 14, 2021)

Maybe try completely disabling Spotlight. Sometimes the indexing does weird shit while launching programs. Had to disable it on the drive where my HALion libs reside as it was taking ages to do the first launch.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 14, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> I agree with ED that something weird _might_ be going on with your boot drive. It'd at least be a good idea to check.
> 
> You can run a demo of DriveDX, which checks your drive for all kinds of errors. It tells you what kicked off any errors if they're found, it will warn you if any of them indicate possible failure, and will give you info about the warning. The one you want to pay immediate attention to is _Warnings (life-span / pre-fail)_. But any warnings are a sign that the drive might be starting to develop issues...


Thanks for the recommendation for DriveDX - I bought a copy just to have it around. It showed zero issues with my boot drive, and minor issues related to lifespan and error / garbage collection on two of my 4tb 860evo drives (I have multiple backups and some fresh spares on hand).

Since the boot drive shows no issues, and the slow cold-load still happens even when launching Kontakt with no drives connected other than the boot drive, I'm inclined to believe the problem is not directly related to a drive failing or acting weird.

Still, maybe there's a wrecked file in there somewhere, like a preferences file that tells Kontakt to look at some drive that no longer exists, or something like that.

Waiting to hear back from NI Support...


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## jcrosby (Oct 14, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Thanks for the recommendation for DriveDX - I bought a copy just to have it around. It showed zero issues with my boot drive, and minor issues related to lifespan and error / garbage collection on two of my 4tb 860evo drives (I have multiple backups and some fresh spares on hand).
> 
> Since the boot drive shows no issues, and the slow cold-load still happens even when launching Kontakt with no drives connected other than the boot drive, I'm inclined to believe the problem is not directly related to a drive failing or acting weird.
> 
> ...


Good to hear your drive's at least ok... The DriveDx license will pay for itself over time. It really is dead on accurate, and immediately pops up the second a legit warning occurs. (Which is rare. 99% of the time you'll never know it's there, and its background process doesn't eat any more resources than any of the OS processes...

Does seem like it at this point. I've had a few weird issues over the past few years, one where NA would reauthorize all libraries when you launched it. It wound up being some cached authorization files. Once they were deleted the reauthorization issue disappeared... Basically sounds like something that Kontakt (or NA maybe?) uses for caching might be corrupt, and from what I remember these files are typically deleted, then recreate themselves after a reboot. (And IIRC often require one login to Native Access...)

Hope you get an answer soon... Kontakt headaches can be really frustrating!


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## mrnobody (Oct 14, 2021)

i’m on 10.5.3 (catalina), having the same issue with kontakt on Logic 10.4.8. i am too could swear it was 3-5 seconds cold load time at some point.

issue might be with Kontakt and Logic.

on Ableton Live 11.0.5 (running only AU) i get about 2-3 second cold load time.

I have a large quickload library, and as other suggested would rule that out.
I am also using CCC and don’t think it’s the issue.


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## wolf (Oct 15, 2021)

just tried running a backup copy of Logic 10.4.8. latest Kontakt. 10.15.7. otherwise running Logic 10.6.3. Kontakt loading time has not changed - remained just a few seconds.


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## tmhuud (Oct 15, 2021)

I have noticed things slowing down over the years. Maybe its the animated GUIs? Not sure. But not a fan of all the animation as I know it has to suck resources.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 15, 2021)

It's just weird because I had it working super-fast on this exact hardware and MacOS setup - the only thing that's really changed is various "point" updates to Kontakt from v6.2.x to the current v6.6.1, and I'm not sure exactly which of those incremental updates caused the slow down.

At this point I've tried everything:

- Turning off Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, and disconnecting Cat5 network cables.
- One or two 4k displays in both scaled and "default for display" resolutions.
- Moving all AU plugins except Kontakt out of the components folder.
- Clearing Kontakt database.
- Hiding all Player libraries in Kontakt Settings > Libraries.
- Removing everything from the QuickLoad folders.
- Booting the computer with no external drives, audio interfaces, USB hubs, or any cables connected except for power, wired Apple USB keyboard, and Kensington Expert Mouse.

So it's definitely a software thing. NI Support had me add Kontakt, VEPro, Logic, and Live to the "Full Disc Access" list in System Preferences > Privacy, but that didn't change anything. Waiting to hear back from them on round two.

The only thing I haven't tried is removing that old Chicken Systems Translator module, the one that used to allow import of EXS-24 files before it got broken at some point in the past. I just remembered that I may still have the older one (the one that works) swapped in. I will try that tomorrow.


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## lux (Oct 15, 2021)

Just as I don't see it in this list, you tried disabling all antivirus, anti-malware and any possible firewall that may be upset by some NI app calling home?

Also could it be that one of the following folders are under attention of some recently installed security app for Mac?








How to Change the Install Locations in Native Access


Important: This article shows how to change the install locations in Native Access for future installations. If you want to move an already installed NI product to a different location, please read...




support.native-instruments.com





just guessing meanwhile NI comes back with the solution


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## tmhuud (Oct 15, 2021)

I hate the frustration all this leads too. I've been having issues with a MOTU 828X in my back room. After mountains of research people were saying the USB port works better than the TB. Huh??? Lol. FINALLY they released i firaware fix. Then I have a cinema display I had to relocate and THAT caused issues as it did NOT like being plugged via one of its auxiliary TB ports vs the shorter cable that comes out the back. 

I feel your pain. Hopefully you get it resolved soon.


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## tmhuud (Oct 15, 2021)

lux said:


> Just as I don't see it in this list, you tried disabling all antivirus, anti-malware and any possible firewall that may be upset by some NI app calling home?
> 
> Also could it be that one of the following folders are under attention of some recently installed security app for Mac?
> 
> ...


I was going to mention that SOPHOS has caused a lot of issues on my system.


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## EvilDragon (Oct 15, 2021)

Antivirus is not really a Mac thing, usually. 

I would try cloning the boot drive to a completely different type of drive, then boot from that clone instead of your current drive, see what happens...


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## MegaPixel (Oct 15, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> It's just weird because I had it working super-fast on this exact hardware and MacOS setup - the only thing that's really changed is various "point" updates to Kontakt from v6.2.x to the current v6.6.1, and I'm not sure exactly which of those incremental updates caused the slow down.


It's def' them...

They really need to strip kontakt down, and re-build it from the ground up. Then with each module/feature do the same, if its a large steaming pile of legacy code and a mess then, it's time to clean that up or even re-write that, before integrating it back with kontakt... Then compatibility test the hell out of it to make sure it runs everything it once ran and did before... Correctly... But as if NI would do that... My bets is that it's full of old old legacy programming and it's probably spaghetti code and nobody in house knows what everything does in it...

Ever wonder why all their plugins are all static background images with few dials or switch to another screen for more options? Load up a 3rd party kontakt library with pretty dials and effects and watch your cpu usage... I've often witnessed mouse lag on using x,y slider/faders etc...

Imagine if someone tried to build something as visual and as interactive as Phaseplant, Vital, Serum etc in kontakt lol... 300% cpu usage and no sound probably... But we are here for the audio and the lowest latency times possible...

I wouldn't be surprised if all the M1 chip stuff compatibility programming has just been slapped in anyway they can and as quick as they can, that would need to be detected on load and then in every module of kontakts programming it would need to be addressed also, a chain of delays on startup (init) and possibly in usage...


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## EvilDragon (Oct 15, 2021)

MegaPixel said:


> They really need to strip kontakt down, and re-build it from the ground up.



You say that as if it can be done with the flick of a wrist... That's a 3-5 years project for sure. Not happening. Plus, the old code is actually superfast exactly because it was written for year 2000 era machines...



MegaPixel said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if all the M1 chip stuff compatibility programming has just been slapped in anyway they can and as quick as they can, that would need to be detected on load and then in every module of kontakts programming it would need to be addressed also, a chain of delays on startup (init) and possibly in usage...



That's not how AS compatibility works... You cannot just "slap it in quickly".


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## MegaPixel (Oct 15, 2021)

EvilDragon said:


> You say that as if it can be done with the flick of a wrist... That's a 3-5 years project for sure. Not happening. Plus, the old code is actually superfast exactly because it was written for year 2000 era machines...
> 
> 
> 
> That's not how AS compatibility works... You cannot just "slap it in quickly".


RE: 3-5 year project
Yep, but sometimes it has to be done at some point... I don't even use code I've written from back in 2000 or 2010 tbh... But I don't live in the realms of C++. Hopefully some Machine Learning compiler will be created and never stop being trained / evolving to compile all code into the perfect, optimised and most compatible code man could never write for PC, Mac & Linux (chipset/architecture) in the next 3 to 5 years... (I'm sure some ML trained compilers already exist - NVidia).

RE: M1 AS Compatibility
"slap it in quickly" I know, coder myself, but we do, do that especially when the deadline is yesterday and everyone else is getting it (in this case m1 compatibility) and your rushing to get it in and working asap, and maybe ignoring the init process or just slapping it in.. lol... adding more to it.. for a take care of it later kind of thing...

But many have noticed the slow down in the last couple of version, so maybe a coincidence, but then again, maybe not.


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## EvilDragon (Oct 15, 2021)

MegaPixel said:


> Hopefully some Machine Learning compiler will be created and never stop being trained / evolving to compile all code into the perfect, optimised and most compatible code man could never write for PC, Mac & Linux (chipset/architecture) in the next 3 to 5 years


That's quite an utopia there  But hey, if that happens, I guess we're on the right track towards Skynet then!


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## charlieclouser (Oct 15, 2021)

Latest word from NI Support is that it may be a disk permissions issue - they suspect this because of the fact that it's only the first launch that is slow. Currently using their NI Support Tool app to generate a system report which will hopefully lead them to a solution....


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## charlieclouser (Oct 15, 2021)

lux said:


> Just as I don't see it in this list, you tried disabling all antivirus, anti-malware and any possible firewall that may be upset by some NI app calling home?
> 
> Also could it be that one of the following folders are under attention of some recently installed security app for Mac?
> 
> ...


I don't have any antivirus or anti-malware software on my Macs, and the only firewall going on here is whatever's built in to Apple AirPort and MacOS.

Disabling the software Firewall in System Preferences > Security & Privacy > Firewall has no effect.

I have a clone of my boot drive from three days ago, on a Samsung T7 SSD, and when booted from that clone Kontakt's cold load time goes down to 25 seconds - better (why?) but still not normal or acceptable.

Interestingly, all recent NI synths take the same 45 seconds to launch - Absynth, FM8, Reaktor 6, Massive, etc. - but a slightly older version of Komplete Kontrol (which I don't use and have not updated recently) as well as Reaktor 5, Guitar Rig 5, and all of their smaller FX plugins like distortions, compressors, eq's, etc. all load instantly as expected.

So something is going on with the latest versions and my system.

I should note that I still have Chicken Systems Translator v6 + v7 + the complete Sampler Tools suite of apps installed. These apps are complete garbage code - they ask for admin password on launch, they create locked prefs files that can't be deleted, they even have mis-spelled words in the splash screen ("componant" instead of "component") - but they can actually work for simple conversions between Kontakt and EXS-24. I know that Chicken Systems created the now-outdated "kconvert.bundle" files that were used to facilitate importing and converting EXS instruments into Kontakt, and I wouldn't be surprised if their trash code is wreaking havoc on some files that NI needs, locking them, or changing their permissions, etc. 

I just sent the 150mb log file created by the NI Support Tool back to NI, we shall see what they say....


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## mrnobody (Oct 15, 2021)

@charlieclouser do you have the ‘put hard disks to sleep when possible’ option set to on?

I have this option set to on, and i find that if I access the hds that contain kontakt librarys first, than the first cold load instance is faster

curious to know if that has any effect on your system as well..


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## charlieclouser (Oct 15, 2021)

mrnobody said:


> @charlieclouser do you have the ‘put hard disks to sleep when possible’ option set to on?
> 
> I have this option set to on, and i find that if I access the hds that contain kontakt librarys first, than the first cold load instance is faster
> 
> curious to know if that has any effect on your system as well..


Nope, none of my machines are allowed to sleep drives, network, or displays. Full manual, always-on operation here.


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## gamma-ut (Oct 15, 2021)

I don't think it hit 45 seconds in my case but when I noticed really slow loading times for Kontakt I decided to try instrumenting it using some of the tools in the OS X developer suite. CPU wasn't going through the roof so I opted for tracking file accesses. Lo and behold, it was scanning all the NI-related files in ~/Library/Preferences on startup. Now, all the libraries are going to be in there, so if you have a lot, that's going to take some time. However, crucially, it was piling through the various preference files that NI seems to use to track NKS-compatible products.

As I don't use NKS/Komplete Kontrol I nuked those from high orbit and have since been more careful to not install NKS preset wherever possible. This may not help your situation but it has improved Kontakt loading time in my case. However, it does beg the question: have NI developers not heard of SQLite?


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## EvilDragon (Oct 16, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I know that Chicken Systems created the now-outdated "kconvert.bundle" files that were used to facilitate importing and converting EXS instruments into Kontakt, and I wouldn't be surprised if their trash code is wreaking havoc on some files that NI needs, locking them, or changing their permissions, etc.


KConvert is not at all used anymore in the Kontakt codebase.



gamma-ut said:


> However, it does beg the question: have NI developers not heard of SQLite?


Yes, they did, and they do use it where necessary.  But in ~/Library/Preferences are .plist files that store data like paths to KP libraries, state of various application options (like stuff you select in Kontakt's Options panel), and so on. SQLite is not a good pick for storing system-related stuff like that. plist/registry exists for a reason.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 16, 2021)

EvilDragon said:


> KConvert is not at all used anymore in the Kontakt codebase.


That's what I figured. I assumed that just having the KConvert.bundle files sitting innocently in their folder would not affect load times, but with Chicken Systems stuff... ya never know!

That's why I'm still suspicious that running Translator (or Redmatica even?) might have messed with some permissions or wrecked some tiny file somewhere that's causing Kontakt to throw up a hairball.

But the fact that most recent NI synths all take the same 45 seconds to launch leads me to believe the problem lies elsewhere.


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## EvilDragon (Oct 16, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> That's why I'm still suspicious that running Translator (or Redmatica even?) might have messed with some permissions or wrecked some tiny file somewhere that's causing Kontakt to throw up a hairball.



That is extremely unlikely. And when I say extremely, I mean there's practically zero chance for that to transpire.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 16, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> I don't think it hit 45 seconds in my case but when I noticed really slow loading times for Kontakt I decided to try instrumenting it using some of the tools in the OS X developer suite. CPU wasn't going through the roof so I opted for tracking file accesses. Lo and behold, it was scanning all the NI-related files in ~/Library/Preferences on startup. Now, all the libraries are going to be in there, so if you have a lot, that's going to take some time. However, crucially, it was piling through the various preference files that NI seems to use to track NKS-compatible products.
> 
> As I don't use NKS/Komplete Kontrol I nuked those from high orbit and have since been more careful to not install NKS preset wherever possible. This may not help your situation but it has improved Kontakt loading time in my case. However, it does beg the question: have NI developers not heard of SQLite?


Oohhh that's good info. I do not use NKS and I've been wondering about whether I can slim down the install by trashing those files.

How can I tell which .plist files are specifically related to NKS stuff, as opposed to ones that are needed for non-NKS operation? I have about 700 com.native-instruments.XXX.plist files in my Library>Preferences folder, and another 300 or so in the User>Library>Preferences folder - and many seem to be duplicated in both locations. There's native-instruments.plist files for every single Waves plugin and things like Zebra and Diva for instance, I'm assuming those are the NKS compatibility files?

Super hassle if I have to go and weed through those. And weird that even though I don't use Komplete Kontrol or NKS that those things would be slowing down the launch of plain vanilla Kontakt...

Now that I've got suspicions about NKS, I've updated Komplete Kontrol to the latest version, and I'm sat here watching it scan 1,400 plugins. In a couple of hours when it's done, I'll see if that improves matters (like if there was an old or corrupted Komplete Kontrol DB somewhere), and if things are still slow I'll try moving all of those .plist files to a safe place and restarting.

Should I be concerned that messing with those .plist files will affect the authorization status of my zillions of libraries and plugins? Or are they merely user preferences like UI / audio / midi / preset directory stuff? I don't mind if I have to manually reset those elements as I use the plugins....


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## gamma-ut (Oct 16, 2021)

The NI ones need to stay: I pretty much trashed anything that looked out of place such as synths or clearly not Kontakt-related, like as you say, Waves. I think all the NKS files are in User/Library/Prefs.

The authorisation files have moved around a bit over the years but I think at least some of those NI plists will contain the Native Access data. But I don't think it's a major deal to reset them - I didn't take detailed notes but I think I managed to avoid nobbling Kontakt libraries while doing The Purge. 

I honestly don't understand why Kontakt scans the NKS files. My best guess is that using that plist format was a shortcut they made while writing KK, not taking into account the fact that Kontakt scans that folder to check for new libraries.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 16, 2021)

Well, I tried letting Komplete Kontrol and its Scan Tool background app scan everything, and it keeps locking up on random plugins, like Softube Statement lead, Arturia Solina, etc. And when you force-quit and begin again it doesn't pick up where it left off, it starts again from the beginning. Sheesh.

So then I moved every single one of the com.native-instruments.XXX.plist files out of both the main Library and the User>Library folders, and...

BOOM. Both versions of Kontakt launch in 3 seconds.

BUT. Kontakt said it's not authorized. So I moved the .plist files for Kontakt, Kontakt5, Kontakt Factory Library back into their locations and now it's authorized again, but no libraries showed up in my Libraries tab.

So I guess the next multi-hour-long step is to gradually move .plist files back into their locations until all of my Player libraries are authorized. I will start with the NI Access .plist and see if that re-authorizes the libraries, and go from there.

But it looks like it's definitely a .plist issue over here.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 16, 2021)

*SOLUTION FOUND!!!*

So I went in and moved every single com.native-instruments.XXX.plist file from both the Library>Preferences and User>Library>Preferences folders, stashing them on another drive. There were about 500 in the main Library folder and about 700 in the User Library folder, many of them were for non-NI products, like Waves plugins etc. 

• With none of those .plist files in their normal locations, Kontakt launches in 2 seconds (!!!) - but it says it's not authorized.

• Moving just the .plist files related to Kontakt, Factory Library, and Komplete Ultimate back to their normal locations re-authorized Kontakt, but none of my Player Libraries were shown, and NI Access showed them as being "not installed". Kontakt launch time was 3 seconds.

• Moving all of the .plist files related to items shown in NI Access as "not installed" back to their normal locations re-authorized all of my Player Libraries. Kontakt launch time increased to 7 seconds. Tolerable I guess.

• Many .plist files existed in both the main and User locations. I noticed that items in the User folder got re-built when Kontakt was launched with the corresponding item in the main folder. So I let it rebuild them and threw away the ones I had dragged out to a safe place.

• I have not dragged back to their normal location any of those com.native-instruments.XXX.plist files that seemed to relate to Waves or other plugins, assuming that they're related to NKS and / or Komplete Kontrol. 

• I never got Komplete Kontrol to finish scanning, it kept locking up on random plugins and since I don't have an NI Kontroller, don't use NKS, and abhor the idea of a "shell" like Komplete Kontrol, I'm leaving those .plist files in the stash location for now.

So... if you're experiencing ridiculously long Kontakt launch times, get into those Preferences folders and get started manually dragging them to a safe location and then put back only the ones that relate to items that show up in NI Access as "not installed". 

Seven seconds is still way too slow for me to feel good about, but it's not "smash guitar through monitor" level slow. I am going to try moving a bunch of those .plist files, for libraries I don't need on this project, over to the stash point and see if I can get the launch time back down to around 3 seconds.

Freakin' hassle.


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## easyrider (Oct 16, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> *SOLUTION FOUND!!!*
> 
> So I went in and moved every single com.native-instruments.XXX.plist file from both the Library>Preferences and User>Library>Preferences folders, stashing them on another drive. There were about 500 in the main Library folder and about 700 in the User Library folder, many of them were for non-NI products, like Waves plugins etc.
> 
> ...


PITA


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## charlieclouser (Oct 16, 2021)

easyrider said:


> PITA


Yeah, pretty freakin' ridiculous. Especially because Logic can scan 32,000 EXS Instruments that take up 3 GIGAbytes of disk space in less than ten seconds when launching Logic, and then never needs to re-scan them until the user tells it to refresh the browser. Meanwhile, NI takes 45 seconds to scan 900 .plist files that occupy less than 8 MEGAbytes on disk.

I realize it's getting hung up somewhere, and most of that 45 seconds is NI sitting there scratching its head, but still. 

It looks like the only way to refresh those .plist files is to re-install all of those NKS-compatible products, or maybe use Komplete Kontrol's Scan Tool to refresh them... but Scan Tool kept hanging on random plugins and I had to force-quit after waiting a half-hour to see if it was moving or not. 

Urrrgggh.

So for the moment, only the .plist files relating to NI products and third-party Player libraries are present in their default locations on my rig, and launch time is 5-7 seconds. The rest of the .plist files are stashed in a folder on my desktop.

Tolerable I guess.


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## Kent (Oct 16, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Yeah, pretty freakin' ridiculous. Especially because Logic can scan 32,000 EXS Instruments that take up 3 GIGAbytes of disk space in less than ten seconds when launching Logic, and then never needs to re-scan them until the user tells it to refresh the browser. Meanwhile, NI takes 45 seconds to scan 900 .plist files that occupy less than 8 MEGAbytes on disk.
> 
> I realize it's getting hung up somewhere, and most of that 45 seconds is NI sitting there scratching its head, but still.
> 
> ...


FWIW I find that KK is not very ‘good’ at scanning and the process takes the better part of a day with quit-restarts needed every so often. Your experience sounds identical.


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## KerrySmith (Oct 16, 2021)

kmaster said:


> FWIW I find that KK is not very ‘good’ at scanning and the process takes the better part of a day with quit-restarts needed every so often. Your experience sounds identical.


KK has been a blight on my otherwise happy workstation, and when they updated it to scan/include “non-instrument” plugins, it became exponentially worse.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 16, 2021)

KerrySmith said:


> KK has been a blight on my otherwise happy workstation, and when they updated it to scan/include “non-instrument” plugins, it became exponentially worse.





kmaster said:


> FWIW I find that KK is not very ‘good’ at scanning and the process takes the better part of a day with quit-restarts needed every so often. Your experience sounds identical.


Good to know that my KK experience is not unique enough to be alarming or even surprising.

Hassle though that I need to get all cowboy in the Prefs folder just to manhandle the NI stuff into working order.


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## JonS (Oct 17, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Well, I tried having standalone instances of v5 and v6 loaded already before launching Logic, and the slow load time was the same. I also tried having an instance of VEPro running with v5 and v6 loaded.... same result.
> 
> It seems that whatever caching is happening is separate for the Logic, VEPro, and standalone instances of Kontakt - like, they're not sharing a common cache of whatever it is that's slowing the first instance down. Also, v5 and v6 seem to keep separate caches, so having v5 already loaded doesn't speed up the first cold load of v6 for instance.
> 
> Once a single instance of either version of Kontakt is loaded in Logic (or VEPro), subsequent instances of that same version load lickety-split, and switching tracks while the plugin window is open with chain-link turned on also happens super-fast. It's just that first cold load that's slow. Of course, this also means that closing a Logic project and opening another has the same cold-load delay, since Logic de-instanciates all plugins in the outgoing project and then re-instanciates them in the incoming one. Another argument for using VEPro I guess....


VEPro decoupled solves this.


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## Sunny Schramm (Feb 21, 2022)

easyrider said:


> Windows 10 here takes about 3 seconds


same here - 1-2 seconds max.

(i9 9900K, 32GB, RTX3080, WS Z390 Pro, Windows 11)


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## samphony (Feb 21, 2022)

1-2 seconds on a fully fledged m1max in both logic and Studio One native silicon mode. @charlieclouser 

Are you still on 10.14?


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## MegaPixel (Feb 21, 2022)

Sunny Schramm said:


> same here - 2-3 seconds max.
> 
> (i9 9900K, 32GB, RTX3080, WS Z390 Pro)


Opening a blank instance can take about 7 to 12 seconds for all of KK13UCE + around 15 3rd party extras which install via NA... Anywhere up to around 30 seconds for large libraries, via direct NKS open (yes batch saved)...

i9 9900k [email protected] on all cores, 32GB DDR4 3600 XMP2, RTX 3080, NVME Boot, SSD storage (Kontakt & all libs)

It's made by NI, it's working as intended, sloooow and will lock up every so often...
Just go make a cup of tea, go out get a sandwich and when you come back you should be able to start up another instance of it. 

Moral of the story... Make a blank project, create 10 instances of kontakt, save, then when you first start a project using kontakt open that then go out and get a cuppa and a sandwich


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## charlieclouser (Feb 21, 2022)

samphony said:


> 1-2 seconds on a fully fledged m1max in both logic and Studio One native silicon mode. @charlieclouser
> 
> Are you still on 10.14?


Yes my main rig is still on MacOS 10.14.6 Mojave. I reduced Kontakt's cold load time to 3 sec by removing tons of .plist files for all the NKS stuff that I didn't need, but that machine shall remain frozen at Mojave.

I do have a new M1max MacBook Pro 16" but I've only fiddled with it and haven't even put Kontakt on it yet. 

Waiting for the M-series Mac Pro replacement before I totally go all-in on Apple Silicon. If there's a Mac Mini announced soon I may get one, but I may just wait for the big boy if it's likely to happen within a year or so. By then everything that matters will be AS native I suspect, and the stuff that isn't by then will be end-of-life probably.

I have a lot of legacy tools that I still like to use, like ReCycle and other goofy stuff, so I'm gonna freeze my Mac Pro cylinder at Mojave and use it for all that old stuff. Redmatica KeyMap is on my ProTools cylinder which is still on Yosemite.


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## samphony (Feb 21, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> I do have a new M1max MacBook Pro 16" but I've only fiddled with it and haven't even put Kontakt on it yet.


Ha. Like Reinhold!

Totally understand why you froze the machine in time. I did so with one of the Intel minis in the rack. It’s practically a mirror of the trashcan mac before i sold it.


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