# How do you deal with this?



## kid-surf (Oct 10, 2006)

I was asked to do something close to a temp track. So, I do a track that is very close, same tempo, same instrumentation, same vibe. It feels *the same* from my perspective. Yet, they don't like it? I'm perplexed..........

So, now I have no clue what they want.

Basically I'm venting... but what do you do in that sit--where you're are as close as you can "legally" be to the temp they like and it's not close enough (for reasons only god knows)


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## Ed (Oct 10, 2006)

I think you should make hints that since they didnt like what you did, that you now dont know what they want. Maybe play them other similar bits of music and they can tell you what it is about it that they like. Try to make them be specific. 

Just my unprofessional suggestion


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## PaulR (Oct 10, 2006)

kid-surf @ Tue Oct 10 said:


> Basically I'm venting... but what do you do in that sit--where you're are as close as you can "legally" be to the temp they like and it's not close enough (for reasons only god knows)



Venting is good Kid.

Basically, depending on how intelligent they are as human beings - start asking lots of open questions.

Hey - didn't we discuss this before?

:mrgreen:


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## Lex (Oct 10, 2006)

I do it again till I get something that they want and I can live with...

Or quit if I see its gonna go nowhere no mather what I do..



Alex


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## kid-surf (Oct 10, 2006)

I hear you guys............


Man today has been a shitty day. Had this to deal with and also got word I didn't get this decent budget feature that I wanted. It was down to me and another dude, I lost. Being #2 out of many many composers doesn't feel that great. Unfortunately..... (so again I'm venting). Man, when am I gonna catch a break...???

It's just one of those days I guess.......


Ed -- thanks for the thoughts... yep that's the consideration.

Paul --- You mean to tell me that this isn't the first time this situation has happened???? :mrgreen:

Kays --- I hear you. Mostly I focus on trying to get 'good/quality' gigs -vs- money. It is a little taxing trying to be commercial for the commercial guys and filmy for the film guys. Ultimately the films pay way less when you consider how much music you have to write (at least on my level). So I guess that's what makes it attractive. 

Yeah, I do try to stay away from as much of that stuff as I can--those jobs you just know are going to be hell because you know they have no clue what they want and never will. But with this person in particular we are (hopefully) building a relationship where I'm the first composer he thinks of. (this is for ad stuff)

I can't post the music because I don't know who the other music is from, and don't want to post the spot it self.


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## midphase (Oct 10, 2006)

"Man today has been a shitty day. Had this to deal with and also got word I didn't get this decent budget feature that I wanted. It was down to me and another dude, I lost. Being #2 out of many many composers doesn't feel that great. Unfortunately..... (so again I'm venting). Man, when am I gonna catch a break...??? "


Man....I know how you feel! I've been there many times and there's absolutely no satisfaction in making it to the top two unless you get to be #1.

I think you and I are overdue for an evening of beers and rants!

I say Cat & Fiddle on Sunset....soon!


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## Mike Greene (Oct 10, 2006)

For me, when they don't like my knockoff, it's usually because they're just not digging my writing and production.
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## DeOlivier (Oct 11, 2006)

Mike Greene @ Wed Oct 11 said:


> Doing soundalikes is weird because you usually have to make a fairly unnatural melody because the original composer already did the obvious melody.



Yes! Yes! Yes! Well put. Unfortunately, in my current job I have to do soundalikes all the time....


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## Daryl (Oct 11, 2006)

Mike Greene @ Tue Oct 10 said:


> Here's what I'd do. Tell them that if you get much closer, you'd be in dangerous territory. Tell them some friend of yours just got told a film he did is being sued for $300,000. So if you were to go much closer, you'd need a contract addendum indemnifying you for this cue. Or at minimum, they'd need to pay a musicologist to stamp his approval that the piece is original enough.
> 
> - Mike Greene


Mike, everything you say is right on the money. However one little bit of information that you can also use is that even if a "musicologist" (pause for spitting) is hired to approve the track, these people have no liability insurance and their opinion has no legal standing, except to say that at least you bothered to get a musicologist involved.....! So make it clear to the company that there is no protection no matter what they do, and they will be likely to back down.

D


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## kid-surf (Oct 11, 2006)

Kays -- you name the time and I'm there. Sounds like a plan...

Mike you can't come, sorry, this is for VIP ONLY!!!! :mrgreen: Joke'n bro...  sure, come along.

Good "mind fuck" tip.  And I totally agree with the 1-2 thing. True , who needs a 3rd reason with those 2. :D Yeah, doing sound alikes is hard when the 'right' part has already been thought off. I so totally know what you mean by it being unnatural at that point. _("Mr. Composer we'd like you to do a sound alike of Mary Had A Little Lamb... please get as close as you can!!!" _  )

Bruce -- funny story. I like those types of stories.

Daryl -- thanks for the info. Didn't know that.


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## PaulR (Oct 11, 2006)

There are times - perhaps ridiculously - that I really don't understand why you guys, especially the ones in Los Angeles, don't form your own media ventures style company and work almost as a team.


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## Hermitage59 (Oct 11, 2006)

PaulR @ Wed Oct 11 said:


> There are times - perhaps ridiculously - that I really don't understand why you guys, especially the ones in Los Angeles, don't form your own media ventures style company and work almost as a team.



Kid, it's pretty hard not to get involved emotionally, but objectively there could be a lot of reasons why you didn't get it this time, that may have nothing to do with the merits of your music. There's no rule that says directors, producers, etc. actually indulge in common sense and objectivity on a consistent basis.
Maybe a trick for the future is to write a different melody but use similar instrumentation at a basic level, i.e. if there's a big section trumpet cue two thirds of the way through, then you stick one in too. You'd be surprised (as i was when i tried this the first time) how many people use these 'impact' moments in a cue to indentify with.

Mike, right on the money. There have two occasions in my working life that i've done this, and then lost the gig because i frightened the client. However, each time, they've been nailed legally, and i haven't. A safety net that's worth keeping in the 'client persuasion toolbox.'

Paul, great suggestion. The guys in that pleasant seaside village called LA could really take a big opportunity by the throat, and form a company, etc.
Think of the size of the network you could create!

Daryl, we have a shared 'respect' for musicologists it seems. (Hang on, got to have a BIG spit.) The times i've wanted to strangle one, or drown one in a pond, or drag one behind a car for a mile or two, or.............

Taking a hit isn't easy for anyone, and none are immune to felling a little miffed.
The length of miff is up to us though. No one else is going to pay any notice.

Regards and good luck to you all,

Alex.


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 11, 2006)

I can't contribute much on the advice front, but can contribute this quote about musicologists that I read in an article about Shostakovich.....

Apparently, Shostakovich had heard this anecdote from his piano teacher at breakfast one day: 'What is a musicologist? I'll tell you. Our cook, Pasha, prepared the scrambled eggs for us and we are eating them. Now imagine a person who did not cook the eggs and does not eat them, but talks about them - that is a musicologist'.

That pretty much sums it up for me :smile:


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## kid-surf (Oct 12, 2006)

*Paul* -- I hear you. I've thought about that actually.

*Alex *-- I hear you. I try not to over think why things go the way they do. Because ultimately you'll never know unless they tell you. And there's been many times I've been completely wrong about the reasons for certain things as well thought that they'd hate something when they turned out to love it. None of it makes much sense really........


Good point about being miffed.... for me it lasts about a day then I'm over it. It's not so much miffed, for me, more so bummed if something doesn't work out when I know I could have killed on it but for some reason the 'dude' didn't see that in me. More so my thoughts are "how could they think I wouldn't nail this?" But I also try to remember that "for them" it never makes any sense unless they hear EXACTLY what they want..... it's very hard for many of these people to connect the dots even when they don't appear to be that far apart. I try to remember that these people can't know what's "in me". They only know what they can hear in front of them.... you know what I mean? They have a very hard time imagining what you will ultimately create for them.... even if they like your other work. (which seems strange to me, but they aren't composers)

Thankfully there are some dudes (clients/directors etc) out there that DO get music and can connect the dots....


*Stephen* --- I think of critics that way.


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## PaulR (Oct 12, 2006)

kid-surf @ Thu Oct 12 said:


> *Paul* -- I hear you. I've thought about that actually.



Yes, well do something about it. You (meaning any individual) will never, ever be able to stand astride every type of film music genre that's required - no one has ever been able to do that really effectively.

This is why even the A list have teams around them and perhaps most importantly of all - orchestrators. Orchestrators don't just orchestrate as you know. So with a team you could play to individual strengths maybe. I hate team events personally - but with TV and film work in LA - you need to get an edge somehow.


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## Thonex (Oct 12, 2006)

Daryl @ Wed Oct 11 said:


> Mike Greene @ Tue Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's what I'd do. Tell them that if you get much closer, you'd be in dangerous territory. Tell them some friend of yours just got told a film he did is being sued for $300,000. So if you were to go much closer, you'd need a contract addendum indemnifying you for this cue. Or at minimum, they'd need to pay a musicologist to stamp his approval that the piece is original enough.
> ...



100% true... and it happened with me with a Bee Gees knock-off... I was concerned it was too close... they got a musicologist... he said it was ok and that I my similarities were idiomatic to the 70's dance music style.

The commercial came out... Bee Gees publishing heard it... they called my client with a "cease and desist". I had to re-write it... but I charged them the full amount again. I had already warned them the first time.

T


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## Mike Greene (Oct 12, 2006)

Thonex @ Thu Oct 12 said:


> 100% true... and it happened with me with a Bee Gees knock-off... I was concerned it was too close... they got a musicologist... he said it was ok and that I my similarities were idiomatic to the 70's dance music style.
> 
> The commercial came out... Bee Gees publishing heard it... they called my client with a "cease and desist". I had to re-write it... but I charged them the full amount again. I had already warned them the first time.
> 
> T


Sounds like win-win for you. Bee Gees didn't sue (I wonder how good their case was if all they asked for was a "cease and desist') and you got paid twice! Sweet!  

Commercials scare, scare, scare me when it comes to soundalikes. That's where the big money lawsuits can happen.

One guy I know did a spot that cost the ad agency $160k to settle because the song was a bad knockoff. Another guy I know did a commercial and the company wound up paying an even million :shock: to settle because of a short uncleared sample that the agency stupidly insisted would be OK.

- Mike Greene


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## kid-surf (Oct 12, 2006)

PaulR @ Thu Oct 12 said:


> kid-surf @ Thu Oct 12 said:
> 
> 
> > *Paul* -- I hear you. I've thought about that actually.
> ...




Well..... that's an option. But for me, at this point, I'm not really in a panic about making it up the hill. _My_ edge is that my wife is an agent at the most powerful agency in the world (matter of fact). So, I'm lucky enough to have the opportunity to meet people most composers don't. Add to that that I RULE at composing!!! So how can I lose???? :mrgreen:

On the other hand, true, there are teams that do well. Two of those teams are my acquaintances. So I see that it's something that can and does work. (even if you aren't MV) 

I can't speak for anyone else here but for me I'm just not at the point where I feel it makes sense to form a team. There's also the issue of having, perhaps, to link up with a guy 'exactly' where you are career wise. That can be tricky. No one wants to carry the other guy. I don't think it's as easy as it sounds.

The other thing for me is that, I'm not trying to get every type of job under the sun. I'm not interested in doing certain types of work, and certain things I'm just the complete wrong guy for. I just turned down something today because it sounded lame.... music I'm sure I could pull off, pay was ok, but what's it gonna do for me? I don't want to do work I'll hate. Not worth it to me.



At some point it may seem more attractive to 'me' specifically....


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## synthetic (Oct 12, 2006)

Wasn't there a similar story about Ghostbusters? They wanted Huey Lewis' "I want a New Drug," it cost too much, so Ray Parker Jr. wrote a sound alike. That was one of the few instance where someone sued and won for a soundalike, I believe, because they had already tried to get the Huey Lewis track.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 12, 2006)

synthetic @ Thu Oct 12 said:


> Wasn't there a similar story about Ghostbusters? They wanted Huey Lewis' "I want a New Drug," it cost too much, so Ray Parker Jr. wrote a sound alike. That was one of the few instance where someone sued and won for a soundalike, I believe, because they had already tried to get the Huey Lewis track.


I've heard that story a few times but I wonder how much is urban legend. What I do know is the case was settled rather than won and Ray Parker (or the studio) wound up keeping the copyright rather than Huey Lewis. Even at the time I remember thinking it was a weak case, but if the studio did indeed approach Huey Lewis about Drug, the case just got a whole lot stronger.


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## Thonex (Oct 12, 2006)

kid-surf @ Thu Oct 12 said:


> Thonex -- I'm curious if you still have the track that was too close laying around. I'd be curious to hear what "too close" sounds like.



Yeah.... I have it somewhere.... This was over 10 years ago... and it's on some DAT somewhere.... when I get a chance I'll dig around for it... Although I'm not even sure my DAT machine works anymore 

T


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## tobyond (Oct 12, 2006)

He He, I met Ray Parker the other day. :mrgreen:


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## synthetic (Oct 12, 2006)

Huey Lewis and the News sued Ray Parker, Jr. for plagiarism, citing that Parker stole the melody from "I Want a New Drug." Ironically, Lewis was approached to compose the main theme song for the movie, but he had to decline due to his work on the soundtrack for Back to the Future. It was later reported in 2001 that Lewis allegedly breached an agreement not to mention the original suit, doing so on VH1's Behind the Music.

_______________
Ray Parker Jr. Suing Huey Lewis Over 'Ghostbusters' Comment

Lawsuit, filed Thursday, claims singer's 'Behind the Music' comments broke earlier suit's confidentiality agreement.
by Teri vanHorn

Fri. March 23.2001 9:20 PM EST
Ray Parker Jr. is suing Huey Lewis over comments he made in his "Behind the Music" special, accusing the pop singer of breaking a confidentiality agreement concerning Parker's 1984 hit "Ghostbusters."

The suit, filed Thursday in Los Angeles Superior Court, states that Lewis breached the agreement by publicly discussing the lawsuit he filed against Parker 17 years ago, claiming "Ghostbusters" infringed on the copyright of Huey Lewis and the News' hit "I Want a New Drug".

The settlement agreement Lewis and Parker reached for that lawsuit in 1995 banned them from revealing any information that was not included in a press release they jointly issued at the time. The press release stated that the matter had been "amicably resolved."

Parker's lawsuit quotes Lewis (born Hugh Cregg) saying on "Behind the Music": "The offensive part was not so much that Ray Parker Jr. had ripped this song off, it was kind of symbolic of an industry that wants something — they wanted our wave, and they wanted to buy it. ... _t's not for sale. ... In the end, I suppose they were right. I suppose it was for sale, because, basically, they bought it."

That money was paid to resolve the lawsuit was protected by the confidentiality agreement, Parker claims.

The lawsuit states that the confidentiality agreement was "directly related to [Parker's] comfort, happiness and welfare," and that Lewis' comments were "inflammatory and disparaging" and "false" and caused Parker emotional distress.

Parker is seeking an unspecified amount of compensatory and punitive damages as well as lawyer's fees and "further relief as the Court deems just and proper."

Huey Lewis' lawyer, Gerry Margolis, said he could not offer comment when reached Friday evening (March 23). He said he had just received a copy of the suit and had not had a chance to review it fully._


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## Mike Greene (Oct 12, 2006)

That makes a lot more sense. I could never understand why the movie would have tried to license "I Want a New Drug." Much more believable that they instead were just trying to hire Huey Lewis to write a new song.

Funny thing is that Ghostbusters was also sued by Harvey Comics claiming their signature ghost looked too much like Caspar's uncles. That one actually did go to trial and the judge ruled in favor of Ghostbusters, saying "there are only so many ways you can draw a ghost."


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## Daryl (Oct 13, 2006)

Another bit of useless information for you all to ponder. Soundalikes are now not allowed to be called Soundalikes; they have to be called Stylealikes. This is because the interpretation of the "rules" has changed somewhat. It used to be the case that you would have to show a similarity in the melody (or sometimes chord structure) of your piece in order to claim that someone breached your copyright. That has been relaxed into a need to show intent to copy. This is much harder to get around and therefore if a Soundalike is to be written there can be no mention of the piece that it is supposed to sound like, or even any mention of the fact that it is supposed to sound like some pre-existing track!!

D


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## kid-surf (Oct 13, 2006)

Thonex @ Thu Oct 12 said:


> kid-surf @ Thu Oct 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Thonex -- I'm curious if you still have the track that was too close laying around. I'd be curious to hear what "too close" sounds like.
> ...



I hear you... I'm not sure my DAT machine works anymore either. Maybe because I threw it away and have the feeling it's in some landfill somewhere. :D

I did save some DAT tapes though... I have no idea why? It's not like the music on them is any good.


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## kid-surf (Oct 13, 2006)

tobyond @ Thu Oct 12 said:


> He He, I met Ray Parker the other day. :mrgreen:



Did he look happy or sad.... that may give us an indication of the amount awarded $$$....


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## kid-surf (Oct 13, 2006)

Interesting Huey Lewis story........

*"there are only so many ways you can draw a ghost."* 

I thought about that line for a sec. There really is more than a couple ways to draw a ghost. The problem is there's only so many ways you can draw a "commercially viable" ghost.  (the fact is -- no one can confirm what a ghost "actually" looks like) 


Daryl --- that bit of info was useful to me. I'm a knuckle-head so I wasn't hip to that. Good to know. Actually, i do recall hearing that. But it's a good reminder (since there's so many fools out there wanting rip offs) :D


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