# Are Pretty Good Marvel Superhero Movies the Best Hollywood Can Do?



## JohnG (Apr 29, 2018)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/29/...ight-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region

"That an overstuffed picture like this holds together at all is impressive enough. Yet messy as it is, “Infinity War” actually works reasonably well. Which makes it a fitting quasi-conclusion to a franchise that has been defined not by excellence but by being consistently and reliably pretty good." NYT review April 29, 2018


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## NoamL (Apr 29, 2018)

Well since this thread will doubtless have _Infinity War_ spoilers, see y'all in a week  haven't seen it yet.

But I want to go see _Annihilation_ and _The Endless_ first... there is no shortage of well reviewed, high concept, non superhero movies recently...

IMO one of the weaknesses of the entire superhero genre is that they have become like huge-scale TV shows. As aptly demonstrated by the fact that I'm steering clear of spoilers for this movie. I would never care about reading _Thor 3_ spoilers just like I wouldn't really care that much about reading the spoilers to a mid-season episode of a TV show. All of the real plot (meaning, stuff with _consequences_) in a television show happens during the midseason and season finales. Likewise, all the real plot in the MCU is happening in the teamup movies (the three Avengers films plus CA Civil War).


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 29, 2018)

Movie made beaucoup bucks.

All is good with the world.


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## CT (Apr 29, 2018)

I thought it was a lot of fun (and well-scored!), but I can't imagine that I'll still have much interest in all of this stuff after part 2 wraps things up next year. I'm amazed that I, and so many others, haven't gotten *totally* sick of it by now, but how could they possibly do it all again with any sense of freshness, fun, and interest? 

I think it's really a single-generation (or phase, whatever they call it at Marvel) thing, but this generation has lasted longer than I would have ever expected.


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## dflood (Apr 29, 2018)

Meh. Haven’t seen this one yet, but I’ve already seen way too many. They are all well enough made, but most are so lacking in a compelling story or characters that you might actually care about, that spoilers don’t really matter. Instead, we get ensemble mega-star casts who tediously jostle for screen time without ever seeming to believe in their own characters. 

My favourite superhero movies (Marvel or otherwise) are Batman Begins, The Punisher (2004), and Deadpool (I liked The Punisher because his only super power is how well he can take a beating!). Each had a single, central character with a reasonably engaging story arc that at least kept me interested to the end. The rest, while all perfectly watchable, were equally forgettable. 

Obviously, given the money they make, there are plenty of people who would disagree.


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## KEM (Apr 29, 2018)

Marvel movies are just good/fun entertainment. It’s like pop music, there may not be anything innovative or groundbreaking about them, but you’ll usually get a pretty good amount of enjoyment from them. 

I haven’t seen the movie yet, I will Tuesday, but so far all of my friends have really enjoyed it and most have already seen it a second time, so I’m excited to see it. And Hollywood has proved it can churn out great films, I really loved A Quiet Place, and so did a lot of other people, and that just came out, so I don’t think there’s really anything to be concerned about as far as the quality of future Hollywood films.


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## Replicant (Apr 30, 2018)

I'm just so $#%*in' tired of Marvel.

If you'd told 16 year old me, when the first Iron Man came out, that one day I'd be sick to death of Marvel Superheroes, he'd have never believed it.


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## fretti (Apr 30, 2018)

Well I like them, I have all recent Marvel DVD's; but it's not like LOTR or Star Wars to me. They do/are great in Visual Effects (though they use to much imo) compared to other movies. The battles before the end are always to long (in the end we all know no one is gonna die, they gonna save the world, and the hero achieves whatever has to be achieved...) so they could cut the last 30 min (imho). Other then Asterix and a few Spider Man comics these kinds of books were never really my world though, so it's not like I am super hyped for the next Marvel movie because I already know all the story lines, multiverses and what is all there. I'm excited, because I know it will be 2 hours with (often) a good laughter and lots of action where I can just enjoy myself and a good made movie. Nothing more really...
Wether or not it's the best Hollywood can offer: there are lot's of worse films imo, and people seem to like them and the studios make their money...
Also: in the last 18 years, there weren't so much movies/franchises that were really game changing (at least for the mass market), Hollywood seems to repeat itself and bets on what is already there and seems to be safe in terms of money making (yes many exceptions, where even these movies flopped) so yes I think it's the "best" Hollywood can *offer *right now, not the best they could do though (I believe; I don't work there or in the movie industry in general, if I am wrong and you know better, please correct me)


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 30, 2018)

Some are good, some are bad. Really enjoyed Logan, tried to watch guardians of the galaxy 2 and couldn’t finish it. 

Like others have said, they’re just a bit of fun (except Logan maybe). Something that’ll appeal to kids and adults alike.

I don’t think anyone is claiming they are great cinema.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

I love superhero movies (mostly Marvel, but Man of Steel and the Dark Knight trilogy are exceptions). I saw Thor Ragnarok for the first time Friday and LOVED it, thought it was awesome fun.

I've seem overwhelmingly positive reviews for Infinity War...some critics are sick to death of the genre (and I don't entirely blame them).

I started reading Tomb of Dracula, Warlock, Avengers, Daredevil, and Mighty Thor in the mid-70s...movies like today were a wonderful fantasy to me back then. Today I get to see all these marvelous superheroes live action.

It's kinda wunnerful imo. Where Star Wars fell flat for me (never cared much for it), comics movies have me inspired, cheering, laughing...having a heckuva time!


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## KMA (Apr 30, 2018)

For me, the magic of the superhero movie is a great origin story and a meaningful journey, so these protracted CGI orgies don't speak to me. Although, it's fun to have them on in the background while I'm doing my taxes or brushing the cat.

Also, I don't watch anything with Affleck.


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## Divico (Apr 30, 2018)

Haven't finished the first Avengers cause it didn't speak to me. Also getting bored watching new superhero trailers in the cinema (well at least if its not Deadpool).

Although I'd say some superhero movies are really great and not just teenager entertainment. Think of Nolans Batmans, the first Iron Man or the old Spiderman trilogy. For me all good movies with great scores.
Not meant to be racist but this one made me laugh hard


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

As long as people spend money on them, these movies will be made, and it doesn't matter how bad they are. Wonder Woman was a huge hit and was lacking in so many areas that, in a normal world, it would not be considered even a decent movie. I think the problem with screenwriting today is the same problem we see with film scoring. Solid plot development has become less important than "moments." Film composers these days come up with themes that fit the moment, but show little or no progression throughout the movie (ironically Wonder Woman is an exception to this) to show the progression of the characters. If you really want good, solid filmmaking you'll have to look for it on TV or on Netflix and Amazon. Many of the good filmmakers have migrated because they know they're useless in the land of shitty superhero movies. And no, I'm not saying ALL superhero movies are shitty. But most of them are. Even Star Wars isn't immune. The Last Jedi was one of the most poorly constructed movies I've seen in recent history and doesn't work on any level except its special effects.



Divico said:


> Think of Nolans Batmans



The first one. The rest were crap.


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## ranaprathap (Apr 30, 2018)

I see how people are getting tired of the superhero stuff. But I thought Avengers Infinity war had a lot more to offer than a typical superhero movie. It had some of the best villain characters I had seen recently from any superhero movie (barring the joker of course). The villain had an arc, depth in writing, emotional sequences, and finally a believable motive. It was such a clever move that they chose to tell the story from the villain's perspective - the villain had so much screen time - more so than most superheroes in the movie I would say. With a crapton of superheroes in this film, with most of them having had their own individual movies in the past, I thought it will be a big mess in scripting with the superheroes competing for screen time. But I think they managed that part brilliantly. They were able to give enough screen time to most superheroes and everyone seemed to have their own purpose in the movie. Their inclusion in the movie didn't seem forced. And for those people who are thinking that this is another one of those superhero movies with a 30 minutes fight scene and the heroes winning in the end, all I can tell you without spoiling it is "just watch the film". 

And I thought Alan Silvestri did a good job with the score. All arguments about Marvel not having a superhero thematic continuity, they have managed to "fix" it to some extent here. Captain America, Black Panther, Guardians of the Galaxy everyone had their own little thematic element and when the character was introduced in the movie, the sound was immediately recognisable. This is a step in the right direction for Marvel and I hope they continue this. 

I understand the thought process of putting things under the banner of "shitty superhero movies". But a lot of Marvel's recent movies have been highly rated in addition to being commercial hits. They did a great job of building an arc over a period of 10 years until everything came to infinity war. It must have taken them a great deal of planning for this to happen. To me, this is good filmmaking. It doesn't always have to be poetic like the Thin Red Line.


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## MarcelM (Apr 30, 2018)

my son likes those movies and iam gonna visit the cinema for this one today.

the movies arent that bad and make alot of money so i guess more will be made.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 30, 2018)

Venom looks good.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 30, 2018)

I for one am baffled that people want to see any of this stuff at all, which says everything about both the industry and the audience.


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## Consona (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> The first one. The rest were crap.


Crap? The Dark Knight was one of the best films ever made, regardless the genre.


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## Cinebient (Apr 30, 2018)

I love these movies....just popcorn cinema and some hours to forget the reality.
Isn´t that for what such movies are?
I actually really liked Infinity War. I don´t expect a deep story in these movies and also not much logic as well.
Then all is fine


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## dannymc (Apr 30, 2018)

i think the reality is that all the clever thought provoking writing has moved into TV, netflix etc. so that means cinema basically has to become something different and closer to a rollercoaster or theme park ride. hence super hero movies do this best for the medium of cinema. but if you are looking for clever stuff i'd imagine tv is where it is at. just started watching the hand-maids tale. now that is some capativating stuff.

Danny


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## MA-Simon (Apr 30, 2018)

I enjoyed the first 3 Iron Man Films for the humor.
I watched a montage of Thor III on youtube and it was so bad. On a level with the old power ranger shows.
The new Spiderman with the kid was super fun.

I am probably the only one who did not super enjoy "the shape of water".
The acting was good, the art, the music, the idea etc. But it just had no surprises. I was bored of the characters halfway trough.

I looooooved: "Valerian" for the spectacle of visuals that it delivered. That to me was a cinema flick I would pay to watch on a big screen.

For me films have devolved to be a very boring format. I need more time & development.
For me stuff like: The Expanse, Westworld & Agents of Shield, Agent Carter (sadly cancelled) are way more interesting.


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## John Busby (Apr 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I for one am baffled that people want to see any of this stuff at all, which says everything about both the industry and the audience.


could you elaborate on this a little?

i happen to be a huge fan of what Marvel Studios have accomplished in their universe building - doing things that have never been done before in film history both in storytelling and production (like an entire feature in IMAX) and also successes in the box office that every other studio is trying to duplicate.

placing the 18 films aside for a moment, this studio is doing it right regardless of the genre.

and not trying to be a prick but with that said i wanna hear more about what you're saying about the industry and about (me) the audience.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

Consona said:


> Crap? The Dark Knight was one of the best films ever made, regardless the genre.


Clearly we saw different movies. The Dark Knight was a mess, and bad on many levels. But it was better than Inception. I'll give you that.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> ...which says everything about both the industry and the audience.



All it says anything about is you.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

ranaprathap said:


> And I thought Alan Silvestri did a good job with the score. All arguments about Marvel not having a superhero thematic continuity, they have managed to "fix" it to some extent here. Captain America, Black Panther, Guardians of the Galaxy everyone had their own little thematic element and when the character was introduced in the movie, the sound was immediately recognisable.


Well, Silvestri IS good at what he does.


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## Paul Owen (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> Clearly we saw different movies. The Dark Knight was a mess, and bad on many levels. But it was better than Inception. I'll give you that.



Can't wait to see your universally applauded movie.


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## CT (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> Clearly we saw different movies. The Dark Knight was a mess, and bad on many levels. But it was better than Inception. I'll give you that.



Do you have "strong opinions," or do you just like saying things that you know a lot of people will disagree with? I wonder....


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

miket said:


> Do you have "strong opinions," or do you just like saying things that you know a lot of people will disagree with? I wonder....


I have strong opinions. Ask my wife.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

Paul Owen said:


> Can't wait to see your universally applauded movie.


Weakest counter argument ever. I don't make movies nor do I ever plan to. But I know a good one when I see it. The Dark Knight was not a good one. But, hey, if you enjoyed it, that's fine. My dislike of it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with you. The world would be boring if we all liked the same things.


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## Paul Owen (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> Weakest counter argument ever. I don't make movies nor do I ever plan to. But I know a good one when I see it. The Dark Knight was not a good one. But, hey, if you enjoyed it, that's fine. My dislike of it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with you. The world would be boring if we all liked the same things.



I agree with most of this. However to say the movie is bad is quite honestly one of the more ridiculous things I've read on here. It's not a bad movie. I did enjoy it yes, and would not tell you to feel the same but maybe just say that you didn't enjoy it. Now, if we're talking about The Room or Monster in the Closet (look it up) then you'd be right, they are BAD movies. The Dark Knight however is not. But I respect your right to say that you didn't enjoy it (for whatever reason). 
And yes, I wholeheartedly agree the world would be boring if we all liked the same things.

All the best


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 30, 2018)

johnbusbymusic said:


> could you elaborate on this a little?
> 
> i happen to be a huge fan of what Marvel Studios have accomplished in their universe building - doing things that have never been done before in film history both in storytelling and production (like an entire feature in IMAX) and also successes in the box office that every other studio is trying to duplicate.
> 
> ...



Well I find the movies to be very trite, clichéd, flawlessly sleek and painfully homogenuous. Everything about it: the writing, the assembly line production values, the video game cutscene look, the jokes, the actors and their obnoxiously uniform mugs, the oafish sound design dogmas, just everything about it. It's way past any notion of "too much of a good thing". The premise being here of course that I don't have a particular fondness to any kind of genre, or a special soft spot for superheroes. I just take things as they come.

To me, it shows an industries' depressing lack of creativity, daring and also trust in their audiences. It all just bores me to death, and there's a point where boring things become so much of a bad joke that you make on purpose because you're going for the "anti-joke effect" that it developes something that I perceive as an actively annoying quality. In turn, I find it depressing to realize that the general audience has so little interest in variety, novelty or subtlety, and instead chooses to content itself with assembly line type perfection of execution. I just find that it reflects sadly on the meaning of entertainment, creativity and public consensus as of late.

Mind you, this doesn't pertain to superhero movies exclusively, although they might be the worst offender right now. To be honest, I haven't seen a good film in ages.



Puzzlefactory said:


> All it says anything about is you.



Yes ... that I'm not necessarily bursting to see the same film for the 105th time and for some reason still act as if it was a sensational experience.


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## fretti (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> Clearly we saw different movies. The Dark Knight was a mess, and bad on many levels. But it was better than Inception. I'll give you that.


Don't you mean The Dark Knight Rises? Because that was the weakest out of all three.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 30, 2018)

Not everyone who picks up a book wants to read Ulysses. Sometimes people just want a trashy page turner or, dare I say it, a graphic novel...


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

Consona said:


> Crap? The Dark Knight was one of the best films ever made, regardless the genre.



I like that movie, and I actually really liked Dark Knight Rises (I still play the latter soundtrack). B

I put Civil War up there, I thought that had an excellent story and the airport scene was thrilling imo. The score was...functional.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I for one am baffled that people want to see any of this stuff at all, which says everything about both the industry and the audience.



I'm honestly curious: how are you baffled? Superhero movies aren't exactly not akin to classic Westerns, the motives are often strikingly similar. How the West Won is just a fine movie (for instance) with an at times Concert music level of composition by the incredible Alfred Newman. 

Superheroes might be a bit of a fad (hell, for all the good in them, Westerns were), but no harm done. It's mostly entertainment with more depth than most probably think...(see Civil War, Dark Knight).​


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## John Busby (Apr 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Well I find the movies to be very trite, clichéd, flawlessly sleek and painfully homogenuous. Everything about it: the writing, the assembly line production values, the video game cutscene look, the jokes, the actors and their obnoxiously uniform mugs, the oafish sound design dogmas, just everything about it. It's way past any notion of "too much of a good thing". The premise being here of course that I don't have a particular fondness to any kind of genre, or a special soft spot for superheroes. I just take things as they come.
> 
> To me, it shows an industries' depressing lack of creativity, daring and also trust in their audiences. It all just bores me to death, and there's a point where boring things become so much of a bad joke that you make on purpose because you're going for the "anti-joke effect" that it developes something that I perceive as an actively annoying quality. In turn, I find it depressing to realize that the general audience has so little interest in variety, novelty or subtlety, and instead chooses to content itself with assembly line type perfection of execution. I just find that it reflects sadly on the meaning of entertainment, creativity and public consensus as of late.
> 
> Mind you, this doesn't pertain to superhero movies exclusively, although they might be the worst offender right now. To be honest, I haven't seen a good film in ages.


i hear you! and you have some valid points

if we place all other genre's aside tho, the one thing that cannot be ignored is the overall success of this franchise regardless of how you feel about the films.
Does that mean the audience is to blame? maybe...

let's look at justice league real quick: Warner Brothers attempted to replicate the same formula but only did 1/3 worldwide at the box office that the original Avengers film made - Infinity War nearly made more in three days that Justice League made in it's entirety.
What does that mean exactly? They're both team up kick'em in the nuts comic book movies right? Why then did the same target audiences not come out in droves to support Justice League as they did this weekend with Infinity War? 

to me the answer is in the execution, the leadership, the attention to detail, the storytelling, acting, production, pretty much everything you listed that bores you to death! Marvel has simply done it better.
(DC films have had better scores in my opinion tho)

i say all that to say, yes, these films are wildly entertaining and creative and the public consensus proves that by what they chose to come out and support over what they don't within this genre.
If you don't like these films that's perfectly fine, i really wish they did more for you because they're ridiculously fun! But please don't disrespect an audience by simply not appreciating or understanding this form of entertainment.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

fretti said:


> Don't you mean The Dark Knight Rises? Because that was the weakest out of all three.


Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises, but, yes, DK was the better of the two. Hey, guys, this is only my opinion based on fifty plus years of moviegoing. And I've had disagreements about movies in all of those fifty plus years.



Paul Owen said:


> I agree with most of this. However to say the movie is bad is quite honestly one of the more ridiculous things I've read on here. It's not a bad movie. I did enjoy it yes, and would not tell you to feel the same but maybe just say that you didn't enjoy it.


Well, we could really get into the weeds and I could tell you why it's objectively bad and why Nolan is one of the most overrated directors out there, but that's a discussion that is probably better reserved for another time and place. Would I put TDK in the same category as The Room? No, of course not. The Room achieved a whole new level of bad, right up there with Plan 9 From Outer Space. But just take a few minutes and consider the greatness of an action movie like Terminator Two or Aliens and put it up against The Dark Knight and you might understand where I'm coming from. And if not, hey, I don't have to be you and you don't have to be me, so all is good.


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## Replicant (Apr 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I for one am baffled that people want to see any of this stuff at all, which says everything about both the industry and the audience.



Have you _ever_ made a post entering a thread on these forums that didn't start with you asserting how much fucking better you and your tastes are than everyone else? Because I haven't seen one.

Anyway, Ant Man was probably the best of the MCU so far in my opinion. It was basically a heist movie that _happened_ to star a superhero.

Also Evangeline Lilly


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Not everyone who picks up a book wants to read Ulysses. Sometimes people just want a trashy page turner or, dare I say it, a graphic novel...


Why the straw man argument? No one has even said anything remotely like this. Hell, I WRITE trashy page turners, so I'm the last guy in the world who would be saying it. But some trashy page turners are better than others, and some are truly horrible. It's really all up to the reader's tastes.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Ant Man was probably the best of the MCU so far in my opinion


I agree with this wholeheartedly.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> Why the straw man argument? No one has even said anything remotely like this. Hell, I WRITE trashy page turners, so I'm the last guy in the world who would be saying it. But some trashy page turners are better than others, and some are truly horrible. It's really all up to the reader's tastes.



It was mainly in response to helfires comment but also partly in response to your “I know a good movie...” comment.

So no, not a straw man argument.


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## tmhuud (Apr 30, 2018)

Lol. And which time , and which place would you relocate Nolan to?


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## fretti (Apr 30, 2018)

johnbusbymusic said:


> i hear you! and you have some valid points
> 
> if we place all other genre's aside tho, the one thing that cannot be ignored is the overall success of this franchise regardless of how you feel about the films.
> Does that mean the audience is to blame? maybe...
> ...


Tbh, the trailer for Justice League was enough for me not to watch it...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 30, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Have you _ever_ made a post entering a thread on these forums that didn't start with you asserting how much fucking better you and your tastes are than everyone else? Because I haven't seen one.



Jeez, what are we gonna do?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 30, 2018)

That whole superhero thing is lead ad absurdum for me. They shit out every year a couple of those and that is fine. People seem to enjoy this (for me forgettable) movies like a hamburger at Mcdonalds. We had back then also popcorn movies but still with a bit controversy, at least I think so, not in every case of course. Back then there were also shitty superhero movies like the Supergirl (which was pure shit). But overall I am getting too old: This new stuff is not anymore my kind of drink. Most of the movies from Marvel and Co I saw were for me bad movies because they have imo shitty dialogues, script plot holes all over the place, missing motivations, no character development, they don´t tell good drama anymore imo. Sure..they look all super fancy, but I never was attrackted to that thing just because the movie looks good. But man..just my opinion. If people enjoy it, it is good. There is no right or wrong.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> It was mainly in response to helfires comment but also partly in response to your “I know a good movie...” comment.
> 
> So no, not a straw man argument.


Saying "I know a good movie" has nothing whatsoever to do with watching "high art" versus "trash." And while I believe our reception to art is largely subjective, there is certainly a level of competency that raises one work of art above another that has nothing to do with popularity. You may not like The Beatles music, but you can't objectively say it's bad music. You can, on the other hand, point to a song written by Max Martin and find objectively bad lyrics among other things. As far as The Dark Knight goes, there are guys on You Tube who will break down an action sequence from the movie and tell you exactly why it's all wrong, why it's confusing, why it's just bad filmmaking. But NONE of that has anything to do with the straw argument of "high art" vs. "trash."


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> I agree with this wholeheartedly.



Another super fun movie.


And Evangeline Lilly


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> That whole superhero thing is lead ad absurdum for me. They shit out every year a couple of those and that is fine. People seem to enjoy this (for me forgettable) movies like a hamburger at Mcdonalds. We had back then also popcorn movies but still with a bit controversy, at least I think so, not in every case of course. Back then there were also shitty superhero movies like the Supergirl (which was pure shit). But overall I am getting too old: This new stuff is not anymore my kind of drink. Most of the movies from Marvel and Co I saw were for me bad movies because they have imo shitty dialogues, script plot holes all over the place, missing motivations, no character development, they don´t tell good drama anymore imo. Sure..they look all super fancy, but I never was attrackted to that thing just because the movie looks good. But man..just my opinion. If people enjoy it, it is good. There is no right or wrong.


I agree. And I think my problem with this is that this really seems to be all the big studios are interested in making anymore. They occasionally make other types of movies because they have a roster to fill, but the tentpole franchise mentality in Hollywood has only gotten worse over the years. It started with JAWS and STAR WARS and has gone downhill ever since. Movies today are circus acts and little more. Some people love the circus. I don't.

P.S. Get off my lawn!


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> Saying "I know a good movie" has nothing whatsoever to do with watching "high art" versus "trash." And while I believe our reception to art is largely subjective, there is certainly a level of competency that raises one work of art above another that has nothing to do with popularity.



The subjectivity is a touchy thing for people who have a degree in the arts. The idea especially falls apart for me when we try comparing say, Bach's WTC to the overwhelming majority of music we've heard this century. From a purely compositional standpoint, any such comparison is kind of laughable (study up on your Bach and you'll see what I and literally thousands of music graduates already know).

"Music's all subjective" means Kanye West is right up there with Mozart (I'm laughing already), or heck, Coltrane's "Giant Steps" for that matter. The latter two have written truly great, enduring compositions, period.


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## fretti (Apr 30, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> And Evangeline Lilly


Oh, thats why Wonder Woman was so successful


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> Saying "I know a good movie" has nothing whatsoever to do with watching "high art" versus "trash." And while I believe our reception to art is largely subjective, there is certainly a level of competency that raises one work of art above another that has nothing to do with popularity. You may not like The Beatles music, but you can't objectively say it's bad music. You can, on the other hand, point to a song written by Max Martin and find objectively bad lyrics among other things. As far as The Dark Knight goes, there are guys on You Tube who will break down an action sequence from the movie and tell you exactly why it's all wrong, why it's confusing, why it's just bad filmmaking. But NONE of that has anything to do with the straw argument of "high art" vs. "trash."



Just listen to yourself, you’re calling the film bad film making and then saying it has nothing to do with high art vs trash. 

You’re saying it’s all subjective but then refuse to accept that your opinion is just that, an opinion.

Again, no straw man argument here. Carry on...


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

Oh wait, we're on films. "Vertigo" and "Star Crash".


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## Paul Owen (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> Terminator Two or Aliens



Now, why would pull out those two movies? Two films I grew up with and will love forever. You've gone and ruined a perfectly good thirty page debate/argument. Touché sir...touché...


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> "Music's all subjective" means Kanye West is right up there with Mozart (I'm laughing already), or heck, Coltrane's "Giant Steps" for that matter.


I agree, certainly, to a point. But then there are people who will insist the Kanye is the greatest thing ever and they're certainly entitled to their opinion, just like those who think comic book movies rock. Again, the world would be boring if we all agreed.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> I agree, certainly, to a point. But then there are people who will insist the Kanye is the greatest thing ever and they're certainly entitled to their opinion, just like those who think comic book movies rock. Again, the world would be boring if we all agreed.



Sure! I believe there's absolutely nothing wrong with liking what one likes.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

Paul Owen said:


> Now, why would pull out those two movies? Two films I grew up with and will love forever. You've gone and ruined a perfectly good thirty page debate/argument. Touché sir...touché...


LOL. I chose those two movies because A) we were talking about action movie sequels; and B) those happen to be two of the greatest action movies ever made. They are good on every level. Writing, acting, directing, special effects, and they actually take time to tell a story rather than string a bunch of cool events together.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 30, 2018)

The da Vinci code is bad writing. 

Bad prose, grammatical errors predicatble plot and over used story development.

But it’s still an enjoyable read.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

Well, Jaws and Star Wars aren't bad examples. As much as I practically worship the Jaws score (throw in 2...let's not forget that meisterwerk), the movie really was pretty straight forward. But even there, you had the greedy scum in office...though the mayor could be seen about as multi-dimensional as an Archie character I suppose. Still, SUCH a well done movie, let's at least agree on that.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> The da Vinci code is bad writing.
> 
> Bad prose, grammatical errors predicatble plot and over used story development.
> 
> But it’s still an enjoyable read.



I like the score to the sequel, have the blu ray with the stems.


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## Paul Owen (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> LOL. I chose those two movies because A) we were talking about action movie sequels; and B) those happen to be two of the greatest action movies ever made. They are good on every level. Writing, acting, directing, special effects, and they actually take time to tell a story rather than string a bunch of cool events together.



I wholeheartedly agree. Damn you!


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 30, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I like the score to the sequel, have the blu ray with the stems.



It was actually a prequel, but yeah I enjoyed the scores to all the dan brown films.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

MA-Simon said:


> I enjoyed the first 3 Iron Man Films for the humor.
> I watched a montage of Thor III on youtube and it was so bad. On a level with the old power ranger shows.
> The new Spiderman with the kid was super fun.



Actually Thor: Ragnarok is absolutely funny and fun. It's intentionally campy and self-effacing. Watch with a lighter heart, perhaps. I liked Spidey: Homecoming too, my friend.

Don't miss Thor!


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> It was actually a prequel, but yeah I enjoyed the scores to all the dan brown films.



I'm not even a huge HZ fan (mostly MoS, Interstellar, and DKR) and I really like what he did there.


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## CT (Apr 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> Well, we could really get into the weeds and I could tell you why it's objectively bad and why Nolan is one of the most overrated directors out there, but that's a discussion that is probably better reserved for another time and place.



Now this I'd love to hear; robgb has the secret "objectively true" viewpoint on Nolan that has eluded millions of other filmgoers and critics alike!


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## paularthur (Apr 30, 2018)

What's the greatest film ever made? Con Air.


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## charlieclouser (Apr 30, 2018)

dannymc said:


> i think the reality is that all the clever thought provoking writing has moved into TV, netflix etc. so that means cinema basically has to become something different and closer to a rollercoaster or theme park ride. hence super hero movies do this best for the medium of cinema. but if you are looking for clever stuff i'd imagine tv is where it is at. just started watching the hand-maids tale. now that is some capativating stuff.
> 
> Danny



I disagree. Most of my favorite pieces, whether they're films, tv, or "premium cable series", are one-offs, and NOT ongoing series. Michael Clayton, The International, The Girl on the Train, etc. etc. etc. These stories have a single arc, and are not applicable to be adapted into an interminable, open-ended series that comes in frustrating ten-episode bricks every eighteen months. My wife loves Game of Thrones, a good friend won't stop raving about Westworld - but to me those just feel like soap operas, and require such an investment of time and attention that I get distracted and bored, and when the next season finally arrives I've already moved on.

The only memorable "quality" series-form stuff I've seen in their entirety (and thus comprehended fully) are The Sopranos and The Wire, and for both of these I just waited until they were finished and then binge-watched from top to bottom while I was in bed with a cold. The only series I follow now are light-hearted stuff like Silicon Valley.

It's just my personal taste, but for serious drama I prefer single-arc pieces. Could you imagine a sequel to (or series of) Michael Clayton? It would be awful. Following the righteous do-gooder lawyer as he takes on corrupt corporations week to week? That said, I've watched that movie so many times I probably have invested as much time and attention as my wife has watching and re-watching Game Of Thrones all the time! 

So I think there's still plenty of imaginative and though-provoking writing in film, but the consumers' appetite (and their money) doesn't support the kind of movies I like as much as it does tentpole monsters like the Marvel stuff.


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## jononotbono (Apr 30, 2018)

I've recently watched 3 Billboards, Downsizing, The Shape of Water, Bladerunner 2049, Dunkirk, Annihilation, Happy Death Day, I, Tonya, mother!, 47 Metres Deep, Get Out, Atomic Blonde... To name but a few. Seems like Hollywood are interested in making all sorts of films. Not just Super Hero Movies.

And Nolan, in my opinion, is a trailblazer of a director. One of my favourites. But hey, that's just my opinion.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

*Pacific Rim*= Definition of _"Try-Not-To-Think-About-It"_ FUN!

*Jeepers Creepers!*

Aw man I almost forgot the lowly lovely of franchise pulp: *Puppetmaster* (Full Moon Productions). And with the series more than a couple of smile-bringing turns from (I believe) Mr. Manfredini.


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## fixxer49 (Apr 30, 2018)

paularthur said:


> What's the greatest film ever made? Con Air.


so wrong. it's Cabin Boy.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

fixxer49 said:


> so wrong. it's Cabin Boy.



They both rule!


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## Kyle Preston (Apr 30, 2018)

Article reminded me of an excellent, thought-provoking (and relevant) Nerdwriter video:

​

For him, the problem is 'passable' story-telling. Though I COMPLETELY disagree with his _Interstellar_ dig - his criticism I think stems from a belief that all characters _must_ have their stories wrapped up in shiny bows by the end of the movie. Why?


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## paularthur (Apr 30, 2018)

...i was referencing the great pop culture critic Sidney Young's (Simon Pegg) critique on films... lol


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

paularthur said:


> ...i was referencing the great pop culture critic Sidney Young's (Simon Pegg) critique on films... lol



I really like Con Air, so whether you meant something else is of course perfectly fine my friend.

I also LOVE Interstellar...but feel a good ten minutes could have been chopped off. A favorite score of mine by Hans.


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## paularthur (Apr 30, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I really like Con Air, so whether you meant something else is of course perfectly fine my friend.
> 
> I also LOVE Interstellar...but feel a good ten minutes could have been chopped off. A favorite score of mine by Hans.


as i do but what a great scene* that was on these pop-culture/movie debates in How to Lose Friends & Alienate People... the ending of Inception (imo) is the greatest ending in modern*** film history... & Time is probably my top 5 favorite film cues (if not my fav).


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

paularthur said:


> the ending of Inception (imo) is the greatest ending in modern*** film history... & Time is probably my top 5 favorite film cues (if not my fav).



It's a cool ending, but I liked the score better than the movie. I actually liked the effects in Inception better in Doctor Strange lol!

I loved Inception before they started getting more violent toward the end, battling all these mental variables...it just seemed silly to me by then (and keep in mind, I like superhero films, where the action is de rigueur). No offense to fans meant in the least, still a very good film imo.


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## Replicant (Apr 30, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> The only memorable "quality" series-form stuff I've seen in their entirety (and thus comprehended fully) are The Sopranos and The Wire, and for both of these I just waited until they were finished and then binge-watched from top to bottom while I was in bed with a cold. The only series I follow now are light-hearted stuff like Silicon Valley.



I'm kinda the opposite.

It used to be that I couldn't stand a series. I just wanted to watch movie, a self-contained story, and be done.

But now I prefer series like Thrones, Black Sails, Avatar: The Last Airbender, the new Voltron, etc. because you get to spend so much more time in the world, and with the characters. It takes just the right amount of time to unravel everything in the plot nicely and it allows for a more expansive story and lore.

It's actually why I think Netflix's Castlevania is so good where as most films that adapt games are so bad. Most video games simply present too much material to adequately tell the story in an hour and a half to two hour timeframe. So the films get reduced to the action-plot point-action-plot point format of many games.

That being said, I'm a firm believer that a serialized drama has to be created with a clear beginning, middle, and end in mind. Otherwise, it just waffles on for years and gets increasingly absurd. Like the X-Files, Supernatural, or the Simpsons.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

miket said:


> Now this I'd love to hear; robgb has the secret "objectively true" viewpoint on Nolan that has eluded millions of other filmgoers and critics alike!


It ain't no secret.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> The da Vinci code is bad writing.
> 
> Bad prose, grammatical errors predicatble plot and over used story development.
> 
> But it’s still an enjoyable read.


We actually agree on this one. I cringed through a lot of it, but I kept turning the pages. Go figure.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Still, SUCH a well done movie, let's at least agree on that.


JAWS is an amazing movie all around. Unfortunately, it made so much money at the time that it helped usher in a new mentality in Hollywood. Something called "high concept."


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2018)

Here's a hilarious take on The Dark Knight and some of the things wrong with it:


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## CT (Apr 30, 2018)

Wow, there are actually people who are that anal about things? A whole YouTube channel devoted to it? What a time to be alive.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 30, 2018)

miket said:


> Wow, there are actually people who are that anal about things? A whole YouTube channel devoted to it? What a time to be alive.



They probably overcompensated for trying to quit this board.


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## YaniDee (Apr 30, 2018)

I'm not trying to pick a fight, it's just my opinion, but frankly I'd rather watch a silent film from the 20s than watch most of this mainstream junk. I admit, I have not seen any of these films, because they just don't appeal to me.
I find "classic" movies are more, let's say, "human" ..they leave you with something to think about..
Can you compare Charlie Chaplin to these farting bozos making $10 million per film?..
Can you compare Korngold, Steiner, Goldsmith, Barry or Hermann to this drony epic music with no melody?
Yes, it's the 21st Century, but sorry, I'm not impressed.


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## jiffybox (Apr 30, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I disagree. Most of my favorite pieces, whether they're films, tv, or "premium cable series", are one-offs, and NOT ongoing series. Michael Clayton...It's just my personal taste, but for serious drama I prefer single-arc pieces. Could you imagine a sequel to (or series of) Michael Clayton? It would be awful. Following the righteous do-gooder lawyer as he takes on corrupt corporations week to week? That said, I've watched that movie so many times I probably have invested as much time and attention as my wife has watching and re-watching Game Of Thrones all the time!



THANK YOU charlieclouser. Michael Clayton is a masterpiece. A movie like that comes along once every decade and that movie still crosses my mind and my streaming queue often and far more than I thought it would continue to years ago. Especially that last long shot in the taxi. And Tilda's mirror scene. Yeesh, so good. The score was aces, too.


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## Paul Owen (Apr 30, 2018)

In the interests of fairness...


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## Puzzlefactory (May 1, 2018)

Cinema Sins do a video for pretty much every film that gets realeased...


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## fretti (May 1, 2018)

YaniDee said:


> I'm not trying to pick a fight, it's just my opinion, but frankly I'd rather watch a silent film from the 20s than watch most of this mainstream junk. I admit, I have not seen any of these films, because they just don't appeal to me.
> I find "classic" movies are more, let's say, "human" ..they leave you with something to think about..
> Can you compare Charlie Chaplin to these farting bozos making $10 million per film?..
> Can you compare Korngold, Steiner, Goldsmith, Barry or Hermann to this drony epic music with no melody?
> Yes, it's the 21st Century, but sorry, I'm not impressed.


That's perfectly fine. Many people on the other hand can't do anything with Charlie Chaplin (myself included). I don't watch every movie coming out. I didn't watch Pacific Rim, Bladerunner, Tron, I stopped after the first two Transformers etc. etc.. Simply because I know what will happen, and that it will be nothing for me after watching the trailer(s). Haven't watched the newer Jurassic World as well. 
But I wouldn't say that Marvel belongs to the "mainstream junk". And I also think that "farting bozos" is no fair label for every actor there is. Yes there are many "actors/actresses" that "earn" (should say"get") a lot and are simply bad (J. Lawrence for example imho), but there are still great actors. But then again thats all subjective, everyone likes something else.

Also: sometimes one doesn't want to watch movies for the story, or for having to think about certain topics. There are other things to enjoy or to "take out of the cinema"; stuff like Visual and Special Effects, music, costume, picture, cut, acting and so on. My mom also never wanted to see a Marvel with us, but after watching Doctor Strange (actually just sat next to us in the beginning doing something completely different) she wanted (and did) see all other movies of the franchise in 3 weeks, only because she wanted to know all the backstories and parallel universe things that were also important for other characters and references out of DS (infinity stones, Shield, Thor etc.)...


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## charlieclouser (May 1, 2018)

jiffybox said:


> THANK YOU charlieclouser. Michael Clayton is a masterpiece. A movie like that comes along once every decade and that movie still crosses my mind and my streaming queue often and far more than I thought it would continue to years ago. Especially that last long shot in the taxi. And Tilda's mirror scene. Yeesh, so good. The score was aces, too.



I've watched Michael Clayton so many times that if it's on and my wife walks in the room, she groans and says, "Is that Mike? AGAIN?". She calls it "Mike" now. At this point I could probably re-do the ADR from memory. It's even referenced in Aqua Teen Hunger Force! (As was "Saw") But the score... oh man. That's absolute perfection - and it's kind of out of character for James Newton Howard, compared to lots of his other stuff. That "driving upstate" cue still shows up in temp tracks all the time.

If you liked "Mike", don't miss "The International" with Clive Owen and Naomi Watts. It compares favorably and the score is amazing. After I saw it for the first time, I mentioned the movie to my agent, and told him how much I loved the score, and he said, "Oh, yeah, I think the deal on that one is that they fired the original composer and hired Ramin to do it and he knocked it out in two weeks."

My reply was: "That's it. I'm retired. I quit. I give up. If Ramin did that in two weeks I have no business scoring films".

Fortunately, my agent said, "Oh wait, I'm thinking of a different film.... let me look it up." (clicks on IMDB) "Oh, right, now I remember. That score was by Reinhold and Johnny and the director, Tom Tykwer, and it took them something like a year."

So I said, "Okay, now I feel better. I'm un-retired"

I liked the score so much that I sought out Reinhold Heil by any means necessary so I could compliment him in person, and we've actually become good friends since then. And, yes, it did take all three of them forever to nail down the score. But it's awesome.


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## GtrString (May 1, 2018)

I think the movies are a display of technical movie making. The animations and the graphics are awesome, the whole visual side is rocking, the actors are young and popular.. but the storytelling is simple, banal and often not even coherent.

I've read Marvel comics for more than 30 years, and the films are pretty much like them. It is a seductive universe, but it does get old due to the hard template storytelling, and lack of complexity and depth in characters.

Maybe the screen and the sequel puzzles can lift it somewhat, but I think right now it is what sells. Due to the heavy emphasis on the technical side, they are probably also relatively cheap to make. So it is a reap off


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## Kyle Preston (May 1, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I liked the score so much that I sought out Reinhold Heil by any means necessary so I could compliment him in person, and we've actually become good friends since then. And, yes, it did take all three of them forever to nail down the score. But it's awesome.



That's a great story man! I'll have to check out that soundtrack because I absolutely *loved* their collaboration on _Perfume - The Story of a Murderer. _That score just chills me to the bone.


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## jononotbono (May 1, 2018)

Kyle Preston said:


> That's a great story man! I'll have to check out that soundtrack because I absolutely *loved* their collaboration on _Perfume - The Story of a Murderer. _That score just chills me to the bone.



Perfume! What a film!


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## JohnG (May 1, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> But the [Michael Clayton] score... oh man. That's absolute perfection



Agree 100% -- perfection. I don't know how you could change a note and make it better.


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## jononotbono (May 1, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Agree 100% -- perfection. I don't know how you could change a note and make it better.



If there was a reboot and you got asked to score it, how would you feel?


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## D Halgren (May 1, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> That score was by Reinhold and Johnny and the director, Tom Tykwer, and it took them something like a year."


I had the Cloud Atlas OST on heavy rotation when that came out!


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## D Halgren (May 1, 2018)

Personally, I think that Legion is the best thing Marvel currently.


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## JohnG (May 1, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> If there was a reboot and you got asked to score it, how would you feel?



I would weep quietly.

In my salad days I scored a movie that had been shot from THE SAME SCRIPT as a movie I'd scored only about a year earlier. The second one had been shoehorned into "the future" but, nevertheless, it was like a recurring nightmare trying to come up with something new for the same stories. Even many of the shots were cloned. Yikes.


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## Replicant (May 1, 2018)

In lighter news,

Antman & The Wasp looks awesome. Lovin' the buddy-cop sorta style.


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## robgb (May 1, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I've watched Michael Clayton so many times


As you should. Great movie.


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## asherpope (May 1, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> If you liked "Mike", don't miss "The International" with Clive Owen and Naomi Watts. It compares favorably and the score is amazing. After I saw it for the first time, I mentioned the movie to my agent, and told him how much I loved the score, and he said, "Oh, yeah, I think the deal on that one is that they fired the original composer and hired Ramin to do it and he knocked it out in two weeks."



So I think you should be getting royalties from any future earnings 'The International' makes - I've heard you mention it on so many podcasts! I saw it was added to Netflix the other day, and my immediate thought was "oh that's the film Charlie Clouser loves, I should check it out".


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## Parsifal666 (May 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> In lighter news,
> 
> Antman & The Wasp looks awesome. Lovin' the buddy-cop sorta style.



Looks like more fun! Evangeline to this day isn't exactly hard to look at, too


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## Replicant (May 1, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Looks like more fun! Evangeline to this day isn't exactly hard to look at, too



Alberta represent, wooo!

But yeah, she's hot as all hell.


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## KEM (May 1, 2018)

Update:

Just saw the movie, it was decently entertaining, but really slow and I thought there was gonna be a huge final battle and it just wasn’t really there. It was better than Black Panther, but not as good as Spider-Man Homecoming as far as the MCU goes. The score was totally awesome though, but I’ve come to expect that from Alan.


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## fretti (May 2, 2018)

They pobably wait for the „second part“ with the huge fight... As long as it won‘t be a mess like Hobbit Battle of Five Armies (or what it is titled in English) it will hopefully be pretty good next year


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