# Phantom of the Opera orchestra reduced in the West End, members replaced with “keyboard effects”



## MikeH (Apr 17, 2021)

I believe it’s been the largest orchestra on the West End since it opened in 1986 (27 members). Now when they reopen it will be reduced to 14 alongside a new array of “keyboard effects” in order to give it some “freshness.” 

Stupid. 









West End’s Phantom of the Opera slices orchestra in half, leaving musicians without a job


Phantom of the Opera was celebrated for having the largest orchestra in the West End. Now, it’s being cut in half.




www.google.com


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## gzapper (Apr 17, 2021)

Pits have been sneaking in mainstage rigs for years. Its been a long battle between the AFoM and producers.


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## Daryl (Apr 18, 2021)

I suspect that this is cost cutting, to try to make up for reduced audience members. However, once it's gone, it's gone.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 18, 2021)

I've been to a few shows where there wasn't even a live drummer. I suppose that was partly for space reasons (the places where I saw this happen were all at the the Hollywood Pantages, which has a small pit) and maybe also because drums are difficult acoustically, but still, it's not a trend I want to see.


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## Daryl (Apr 19, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> I've been to a few shows where there wasn't even a live drummer. I suppose that was partly for space reasons (the places where I saw this happen were all at the the Hollywood Pantages, which has a small pit) and maybe also because drums are difficult acoustically, but still, it's not a trend I want to see.


On the plus side, keyboard players are musicians as well, so at least someone is getting work. Personally, even if an electronic drum kit is being used, at least there is that performance element than you can't get with backing tracks.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 20, 2021)

I'm pretty sure that these were backing tracks, not beats that were being played by a keyboard player. One of the shows was Wicked (I think?), and those drums are particularly good, so I was annoyed to see there were maybe 10 players, but no drummer.

These are touring shows at the Pantages, though, so the West End and Broadway may be different.


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## Hans-Peter (Apr 20, 2021)

Despicable. This will ensure that me and my soon-to-be wife won’t go to see Phantom whenever we visit London (2-3x/year, yes we were fans). Truly disappointed by that incredibly greedy move, but so real in this world.


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## JJP (Apr 20, 2021)

It's pretty common to have 2-4 keyboards in stage pits these days. It's just about cutting costs. A lot of people also don't realize that sometimes on Broadway the orchestra isn't even in the same building anymore.


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## prodigalson (Apr 20, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> I'm pretty sure that these were backing tracks, not beats that were being played by a keyboard player. One of the shows was Wicked (I think?), and those drums are particularly good, so I was annoyed to see there were maybe 10 players, but no drummer.
> 
> These are touring shows at the Pantages, though, so the West End and Broadway may be different.


I assure you there was no way the official union tour of Wicked was ever being toured without a drummer. I've worked quite a bit on Broadway and been involved in some union touring shows and the only major show I know of that has toured without a drummer was "Mamma Mia" and it is notorious in the community for being a terrible idea. 

As sad as this is, and it truly is sad, 27 is a simply unheard of number these days for all but the most extravagant productions. Every now and then you'll get a brief R&H revival where they'll do the original orchestrations but other than that 14 is actually a pretty respectable number.


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## ag75 (Apr 20, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> I've been to a few shows where there wasn't even a live drummer. I suppose that was partly for space reasons (the places where I saw this happen were all at the the Hollywood Pantages, which has a small pit) and maybe also because drums are difficult acoustically, but still, it's not a trend I want to see.


I’ve conducted three shows at the Pantages ,Wicked being one of them, and I will tell you every time our drummer was remoted to a back room. The drummer for wicked was Chris Jago. Fantastic drummer. Hell of a band when ever I play LA. That’s probably what you are thinking of. But yes, sigh, the pits are getting smaller.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 21, 2021)

ag75 said:


> I’ve conducted three shows at the Pantages ,Wicked being one of them, and I will tell you every time our drummer was remoted to a back room. The drummer for wicked was Chris Jago. Fantastic drummer. Hell of a band when ever I play LA. That’s probably what you are thinking of. But yes, sigh, the pits are getting smaller.


That's great to know and makes me feel a _lot_ better, because it was pretty upsetting. It was one of those things that would piss me off from time to time when I'd think about it. Synths playing horn or string sections is one thing, but blatant pre-records is another.

I was unaware of the remote room possibilities, which given the postage stamp stage that is the Pantages Theater, it makes a lot of sense. And yeah, his drumming was great, which was part of the reason I went to the pit at the end of the show, so I could give him a thumbs up.

How cool that you get to conduct these shows, by the way! I absolutely love musical theater. I was so pissed at my wife for "wasting so much money" on Les Miserables tix at the Shubert, but then we saw the show and ... totally hooked. I literally walked straight to the box office afterwards to see it again. (Legit productions are a whole lot different than watching my high school classmates squeak their way through "Some Enchanted Evening.")

If you're ever in the mood to post a "My Experiences Conducting Musical Theater" thread, I can guarantee at least one enthusiastic view.


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## MikeH (Apr 21, 2021)

Luckily the Broadway orchestra is staying at 27. It really is a fabulous thing to hear those huge orchestrations live. I’ve seen Phantom several times, and the first time was my first real exposure to musical theatre. It’s the reason I’m a composer/musician today. I just remember being utterly transfixed by everything— especially the pit! As a kid, hearing those live musicians made me want to make music and play music.


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## ag75 (Apr 21, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> That's great to know and makes me feel a _lot_ better, because it was pretty upsetting. It was one of those things that would piss me off from time to time when I'd think about it. Synths playing horn or string sections is one thing, but blatant pre-records is another.
> 
> I was unaware of the remote room possibilities, which given the postage stamp stage that is the Pantages Theater, it makes a lot of sense. And yeah, his drumming was great, which was part of the reason I went to the pit at the end of the show, so I could give him a thumbs up.
> 
> ...


Good to know! I will be there again in 2022 with Moulin Rogue. Come up to the pit and say "hello"!

Also Les Miz was the show that got me hooked! HA


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## SquirrelMan (Apr 21, 2021)

gzapper said:


> Pits have been sneaking in mainstage rigs for years. Its been a long battle between the AFoM and producers.


802 AFM is one of the worst unions on the planet. Even worse than 47. I routinely go back and forth between being on and off their "do not play" list because I'm constantly at the office calling them out for all their B.S. and hypocrisy, which they hate - It's been a decades long war. At one point I thought of just forming my own musician's union that actually cares about musicians. 

At one point International Musician, the AFM Magazine did a big story on me and about my arranging / orchestration work and literally 2 days earlier 802 had put me on their do not play list because they had royally screwed up a contract for a show I was music directing and playing keys on at Radio City and I was in their upper office screaming about how I wanted them audited and how I was going to constantly speak out publicly against them and why no one should actually join since management just cares about pocketing the checks. So in the same month I was both the feature story in AFM's "International Musician" and also on AFM's "Do not play" list.

Long story short they screwed up the contract and there was gonna be a problem getting the orchestra into Radio City as a union show. 802's solution was to have me tell all my musicians to walk off the show the day of the show. Because of their screw up. This was a huge show, with a 30 piece orchestra and a cast and months of prep and rehearsal! So in order to keep 30 musicians employed, paid, and have the show go on, I went in as a non-union orchestra. So 802 flipped and put me on their do not play list for doing the show non-union. Meanwhile it was their fault that I had to do that since their only solution was to have my orchestra walk off because of their screw up, hence not work and not get paid. Remind me again how much the AFM actually give a sh!t about musicians?



JJP said:


> I A lot of people also don't realize that sometimes on Broadway the orchestra isn't even in the same building anymore.


I've played plenty of Broadway pits - some being Rent, Wicked, Hairspray, Beauty and the Beast, Spiderman. Jeez, I just remembered, I played on Bombay Dreams for the minute that was on Broadway - lol anyone remember that abortion? Anyway, I always think that, that if people can see how some of these pits are they wouldn't believe it. On one show half the pit band not only was in a different building, we were on different floors. Drums were like on the 5th floor, Keys - we were in a room on the 3rd floor. Everyone connected with CCTV and following the conductor on the screen. It's a shame it's come to that because the tickets are so horribly expensive. It's supposed to be an experience - not some piped in music from musicians all over the place. 

I remember one woman saying to me how amazing it must be to have a career on Broadway playing in pits and me telling her that spending my life 8 shows a week, in a tiny room with another keyboard player, staring at a little video screen wasn't what I had in mind when I thought of Broadway.

Rent was great because while it was a tiny band, at least we were roughly to the side of the stage and visible. And that show had a different vibe altogether - I'm still friends with a lot of the cast members and plenty of rentheads who used to obsessively come see that show which isn't the case for most shows. Rentheads had scoring low cost tickets from the TKTS booth down to a science.

Besides, I honestly don't think they want Broadway to come back. The rules equity has put out for the actors is ludicrous and most of my actor friends are either leaving NYC or in despair. I mean really stupid stuff like productions have to provide private transportation for equity actors to and from the show - no public transportation, and Uber and Lyft do not count as private transportation. What production has the money to provide private cars to ferry actors back and forth? Most of them are lamenting joining equity since non-equity are working but equity actors aren't. Yet another union who couldn't give two sh!ts about their members.

Besides if Broadway doesn't come back it'll be a nice breath of fresh air for me. All last year during lockdown I went back to doing session work. The dirty secret is that there was still a lot of recording going on in certain studios but it's been kept hush hush because we all were breaking quarantine, no one was wearing masks, etc. But there was surprisingly a lot of TV work that had to be done and there were some big names too on some of the sessions because everyone was looking to work. Just that the rules were no cell phones allowed because if you took a photo and posted it to Instagram, you'd get thrown off the session - No one wanted it out that we all were still working for obvious reasons. So I did a lot of sessions with some great cats and I have no photos from the sessions lol. But this break from Broadway was refreshing and I might just stay doing session work instead.




ag75 said:


> The drummer for wicked was Chris Jago. Fantastic drummer. Hell of a band when ever I play LA. That’s probably what you are thinking of. But yes, sigh, the pits are getting smaller.


Jago's a great guy. I avoid California as much as humanly possible but I've played with him plenty of times here in NYC. He's also a great hang, but admittedly I haven't seen him in about 3 or 4 years.

Sheesh...I got rambly. Sorry.

Anyway, I'm not surprised it's a Lloyd Weber play. He's been pulling this BS for ages ever since shoehorning as many prophet 5s as possible into the pit of CATS to play synth brass.


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## gzapper (Apr 21, 2021)

SquirrelMan said:


> 802 AFM is one of the worst unions on the planet. Even worse than 47. I routinely go back and forth between being on and off their "do not play" list because I'm constantly at the office calling them out for all their B.S. and hypocrisy, which they hate - It's been a decades long war. At one point I thought of just forming my own musician's union that actually cares about musicians.
> 
> At one point International Musician, the AFM Magazine did a big story on me and about my arranging / orchestration work and literally 2 days earlier 802 had put me on their do not play list because they had royally screwed up a contract for a show I was music directing and playing keys on at Radio City and I was in their upper office screaming about how I wanted them audited and how I was going to constantly speak out publicly against them and why no one should actually join since management just cares about pocketing the checks. So in the same month I was both the feature story in AFM's "International Musician" and also on AFM's "Do not play" list.
> 
> ...


I'm sure there are some good stories there, I've been in and out of the AFM for a few decades now as well. And I've had some stupid fights, like doing a show where the local couldn't figure out how to fill out my contract since I wasn't just getting the minimum, so they just didn't give me a contract until I called the head office in the last week of a 7 week contract. Or working at a theatre festival up here in Canada as composer where I'm told I get a session with a 10 piece band to do music for the show. But 5 of the players have to be the fanfare band and one is me. So my 10 piece band is 4 brass, perc, myself and the 5 local players they pick for me. 

Still, I also remember playing clubs for scale. And its sad to see the AFM fading away while IATSE and Equity are at least watching out for their members and growing. You can complain, but the pits are still one of the few good paying gigs, you wouldn't want to replace it with club work and the occasional session.


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## MikeH (Apr 27, 2021)

Cameron Mackintosh Defends Decision to Reduce THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA Orchestra Size


The Phantom of the Opera's orchestra will be cut in half upon the production's return to the West End. Now, producer Cameron Mackintosh has spoken out about this.




www.broadwayworld.com





Cameron Mackintosh responds-

"Am I sorry? I'm sorry they're upset, but I do find it odd why musicians would want to keep doing the same thing year after year. I believe we should not be holding jobs for actors or musicians ad infinitum. This is not the Civil Service, we're creating art."

🤔


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## MikeH (Apr 27, 2021)




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## AEF (May 15, 2021)

SquirrelMan said:


> 802 AFM is one of the worst unions on the planet. Even worse than 47. I routinely go back and forth between being on and off their "do not play" list because I'm constantly at the office calling them out for all their B.S. and hypocrisy, which they hate - It's been a decades long war. At one point I thought of just forming my own musician's union that actually cares about musicians.
> 
> At one point International Musician, the AFM Magazine did a big story on me and about my arranging / orchestration work and literally 2 days earlier 802 had put me on their do not play list because they had royally screwed up a contract for a show I was music directing and playing keys on at Radio City and I was in their upper office screaming about how I wanted them audited and how I was going to constantly speak out publicly against them and why no one should actually join since management just cares about pocketing the checks. So in the same month I was both the feature story in AFM's "International Musician" and also on AFM's "Do not play" list.
> 
> ...


And how many people do you think caught covid or died from it bc of your sessions? 

Agree with you on 802. They are a disgrace.


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## South Thames (May 16, 2021)

> Luckily the Broadway orchestra is staying at 27. It really is a fabulous thing to hear those huge orchestrations live. I’ve seen Phantom several times, and the first time was my first real exposure to musical theatre. It’s the reason I’m a composer/musician today. I just remember being utterly transfixed by everything— especially the pit! As a kid, hearing those live musicians made me want to make music and play music.



It's not just the orchestration that's changing in London. The production itself is being switched from the original Hal Prince/Mario Bjornson production to a new, vastly inferior production Mackintosh created for touring - thus sparing him from needing to pay royalties to the estates of several of the show's original creators. I wouldn't be surprised if he follows suit in New York at some point. Thus one of the finest director/production designer collaborations in musical theatre history will be gradually replaced.

The reduced orchestrations are just that -- they are not in any sense re-orchestrations; they are just attempts to use keyboards and amplification to fill in the gaps left by the missing musicians, as you would do for a touring production. The original Phantom orchestrations, leaving aside a few spots of 80s anachronism, were pretty much unimprovable, so the guff about 'freshness' is just silly.


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