# Should we orchestrate always having a tuba?



## Steve Martin (Feb 8, 2020)

Hi everyone,

I'm almost finished working on my first commercial score in Sibelius, which has a lot of parts derived from Public Domain scores from IMSLP. However, I've noticed none of these use Tubas at all, except one part which comes from a pd score that comes from the late romantic period, and even then, in the original score it only plays in the opening bar of the piece 2 notes So should I just delete the tuba part and keep the bass trombone/bassoon/dbass on the bass line where they are, and cut out the tuba as it hardly plays at all? Thanks for any comments on this.


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 9, 2020)

tuba is rarely alone on a bassline. I know I personally prefer using it with horns more then bones. I've never scored for live musicians, but dont many tune players double on cimbasso?


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## Land of Missing Parts (Feb 9, 2020)

Steve Martin said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm almost finished working on my first commercial score in Sibelius, which has a lot of parts derived from Public Domain scores from IMSLP. However, I've noticed none of these use Tubas at all, except one part which comes from a pd score that comes from the late romantic period, and even then, in the original score it only plays in the opening bar of the piece 2 notes So should I just delete the tuba part and keep the bass trombone/bassoon/dbass on the bass line where they are, and cut out the tuba as it hardly plays at all? Thanks for any comments on this.


Interesting question, as I've been spending time with public domain scores recently and have noticed this too. If it were me, I'd be thinking about it more as a personnel question: If the tuba player is already hired and present at the performance, why not give them the part? If not, don't hire them just for those two notes.


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## mikrokosmiko (Feb 9, 2020)

I always write for orchestra with tuba. I'd rather have it than a bass trombone


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## d.healey (Feb 9, 2020)

Tuba was only invented in the mid 1800s, so perhaps the scores you're looking at were written before then or not long after its invention.


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## Steve Martin (Feb 9, 2020)

Thanks everyone for your reply. This is the first time of written for a real orchestral performance, so all the advice is very helpful and I have appreciated your answers - thank you


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## Steve Martin (Feb 9, 2020)

mikrokosmiko said:


> I always write for orchestra with tuba. I'd rather have it than a bass trombone


That is interesting. Thank you for that comment.


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 9, 2020)

I treat the tuba like a sub bass instrument. So if the bass trombone is playing the bass note of the chord, I would double 8vb with tuba. Tuba is so much richer and rounder than the trombones, it really helps stabilize / support the low end of the brass section.

Not saying it works in every situation, but seems to be a good rule of thumb. Just my 2 cents...


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## Dave Connor (Feb 9, 2020)

The bass tuba was standardized in the modern era (for the most part) as exemplified in the works of Prokofiev and Shostakovich. Strauss and Mahler used it as well but the sort of a John Williams approach is identical to the Russians. It is a very specific sound and should be related to as such. The current use of Cimbasso is to ease the distinctive sound of the tuba in favor of a more trombone-like sound to blend with the brass above.


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## Steve Martin (Feb 9, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> The bass tuba was standardized in the modern era (for the most part) as exemplified by the works of Prokofiev, Shostakovich. Strauss and Mahler used it as well but the sort of a John Williams approach is identical to the Russians. It is a very specific sound and should be related to as such. The current use of Cimbasso is to ease the distinctive sound of the tuba in favor of a more trombone-like sound to blend with the brass above.


Great. thanks for those details Dave. I'll keep those details in mind. I've just been looking at the Star Wars John Williams score that I have, and John uses the Tuba as a bass instrument, and the bass trombone as a harmonic fill in, which I find quite interesting. Shows how modern orchestration has changed the function of certain instruments. Thanks for your tip Dave - Steve


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## Steve Martin (Feb 9, 2020)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I treat the tuba like a sub bass instrument. So if the bass trombone is playing the bass note of the chord, I would double 8vb with tuba. Tuba is so much richer and rounder than the trombones, it really helps stabilize / support the low end of the brass section.
> 
> Not saying it works in every situation, but seems to be a good rule of thumb. Just my 2 cents...


Yes, It seems to be a good idea to double the Bass Trombone an octave lower. Thanks for that tip. I've done that in some parts where I've orchestrated the orchestral accompaniment myself, so that affirms that it is ok for me to do this. Thanks for your help here.


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## JohnG (Feb 14, 2020)

Steve Martin said:


> Yes, It seems to be a good idea to double the Bass Trombone an octave lower. Thanks for that tip. I've done that in some parts where I've orchestrated the orchestral accompaniment myself, so that affirms that it is ok for me to do this. Thanks for your help here.



Just consider that, the lower the notes for brass (and other wind players), the more difficult it is to control volume and also to sustain a note. It takes, for example, an enormous amount of air to play the contrabass trombone, so if you write a note held for 16 beats at a 'normal' tempo, it is going to require a breath or two along the way.

Very low notes also can be very loud if the player is not that experienced. So it's not a bad idea to show the line to the conductor who may know the ensemble. 

Regarding range and control, it is useful to make a direct comparison with John Williams as a reference, since he is the greatest living orchestrator of traditional orchestra. Nevertheless, one should bear in mind that he's hires the best tuba players in the world and most of us don't have that luxury, at least not all the time.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 14, 2020)

mikrokosmiko said:


> I always write for orchestra with tuba. I'd rather have it than a bass trombone



+1.


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## bbunker (Feb 14, 2020)

There are a lot of pretty core repertoire pieces that make good use of the tuba, which I'd look at before dropping it. Wagner is a pretty key figure to look at, although his fixation on expanding the brass voices can be a bit distracting from how to use them in more conventional uses - when he's pulling out 4 Wagner Tuben, a Bass Trumpet and a Contrabass Trombone for color, it can be a bit disorienting from what a 'core' texture would sound like.

I think that modern film-music orchestration has the tuba solidly as the bass voice of the brass choir from two key influences: Russian and English. Tchaikovsky's last three Symphonies are decided masterworks, are profoundly influential, and they all have great tuba parts. That'd probably be the best place to start. Prokofiev and Shostakovich are good to look at as well, but to see an expanded, Russian take on the tuba after Tchaikovsky, Glazunov is a good place to look - his Symphonies aren't terribly well known today, but the tuba parts are spectacular, and they're all Public Domain.

The English composers are probably the ones that can be most directly traced to orchestration for film in the middle of the 20th century, with the influence of Holst, Vaughan-Williams and Walton on John Williams. And - it's all on IMSLP (well, except for Walton), so it'd be good to go through the Planets, and the Sea, London and Antarctic Symphonies of Vaughan-Williams before I made any decisions on Tuba.

I guess you can see where I sit on the question: long live the tuba.


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## Living Fossil (Feb 14, 2020)

Hi Steve, 

that's a good question.

There is a famous german book series about instrumentation bei Hans Kunitz (with quite a bit of a focus on Richard Strauss) where the part about the tuba consists mostly by stating that the tuba is quite often not the appropriate bass of a trombone section.
While it's a personal choice to decide if one agrees, it's in any case really interesting to have an eye on some examples he offers. 
In fact, sometimes a tuba - specially at higher dynamics - can bring an unwanted rustical feeling into a heroic trombone chorus, hereby lowering the impact.
So, if it's about a sharp, brillant sound, the tuba isn't the first choice. (however, I've heard from lots of musicians, that tubists in the USA use different mouth pieces, hereby achieving a more brillant sound than in the European tradition.)

Then again, an aspect that easily gets overlooked is the fact that the tuba is a wonderful bass for horn sections (e.g. choral-like passages). Specially at lower dynamics it's a wonderfully round, peaceful sound with lots of depth that can give a perfect bass to the horns to achieve a calm and heroic sound.

To answer your question:
If i use smaller orchestral sections, i quite often (about 50% of the time) use no tuba. However, this is depending on the style etc.


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## Sears Poncho (Feb 14, 2020)

New World Symphony by Dvorak- Tuba plays 14 notes. And in the slow mvmt.


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## nolotrippen (Feb 14, 2020)

That's right. Didn't Williams use the upper-register of the Tuba for the Jaws opening?


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## bradleybboone (Feb 14, 2020)

Should you orchestrate for Tuba? Yes, if you want to.
To me it is like asking, should you orchestrate for bass clarinet, baritone saxophone, or contrabassoon. Sure, if it fits.

Longer answer: the tuba has more technical facility than other brass instruments in the bass/sub-bass register. It also has a lot of dynamic control when played by a competent performer. With smaller tubas in F or Eb the performer has more security in the high range and can play with a less "ponderous" feeling. The tuba is a non-transposing instrument in the orchestra, so write where you'd like them to sound.

Please also look at the concerto, sonata, and band literature for what the modern tubist is capable of playing (as opposed to endless chains of whole notes). As for pairings, it sits well with the trombone or horn sections. The tenor tuba, typically played on a euphonium, is also a great addition to your low brass palette. As stated earlier in the thread, be aware of the breath constraints as the instrument requires quite a bit of air especially at loud dynamics.


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## CT (Feb 14, 2020)

Tubas are great, but if you want some interesting tuba-bereft examples, you can check out Sibelius and Puccini.


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## Steve Martin (Feb 16, 2020)

Thanks everyone for your comments here. This has turned into a very interesting topic, with a lot more depth than I realized. The comments and thoughts shared have been very helpful, and that's helped me in being more confident about what I'm writing. The tuba in the score isn't used much, but it's there when needed. I suppose I could drop it out entirely, but there are some places where I feel it will give the bass that extra 'push' of sound. So thank you everyone for your helpful participation in this thread. You're all amazing!


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## GdT (Mar 3, 2020)

I recently looked at Wagner Lohengrin Prelude to Act 3.
The Tuba is used to play the main tune for a lot of the time !!!
There is a brilliant tune in the high base with shimmering chords above.
The tune is played by Tuba, Bassoons, Trombones, Celli, CBassi.
When it gets a bit high the Tuba is replaced by a Trumpet.
My MIDI mockup is here:
box folder MIDI mockups


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