# What kind of Fee, etc?



## esteso (Apr 10, 2007)

So I've been talking to a woman who wants to use my music on a Dance CD of sorts. She travels all over the world to give instructional dance classes and wants a CD she can sell to her clients.

The CD will be around 60 minutes of music with voiceover in parts. She liked a lot of my music I played for her and I'd say it comprised maybe 50% of what would need to be done to deliver the project. I have no idea how many hours of composition the already completed music represents but it is certainly in the hundreds. (OK, I'm slow)

At any rate she wants to work with me and asked me for a price. I rejected the idea of getting "royalties" on the backend out of hand as any part of the deal. I also told her that I would like to be able to use the same music as a demo or maybe even re-sell it on a non-exclusive basis.

And then I asked her for $8000.

She was a bit shocked but wants to keep talking. I'm trying to clarify my thinking before our next meeting. I really have no idea if this is in the ballpark or not for something like this, it is simply what I felt I would like to get. (It's only $40/hr for 200 hours, doesn't seem like that much to me) I guess I could knock it down to $6000 and put some kind of cap on the hours needed to complete. Like a hundred or something. Then if it goes over, start charging by the hour...

I'm not sure, a little out of my depth here. Any advice? Things to look out for?

Thanks


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 11, 2007)

Great for you if you can even get 6 grand. I mean, you don't have to work to image; don't have to worry about formats; no temp track to replace; no last-minute changes while the mix is happening; you won't be dissapointed that the mixer placed your music lower than everything else that is audio; and you can use the music again! Not bad at all. :wink: 

PS: IMHO, charging by the hour makes you look more like a technician than an artist. Figure out how many days in your head, and then give the client a flat fee.


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## Rob Elliott (Apr 11, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Apr 11 said:


> Great for you if you can even get 6 grand. I mean, you don't have to work to image; don't have to worry about formats; no temp track to replace; no last-minute changes while the mix is happening; you won't be dissapointed that the mixer placed your music lower than everything else that is audio; and you can use the music again! Not bad at all. :wink:
> 
> PS: IMHO, charging by the hour makes you look more like a technician than an artist. Figure out how many days in your head, and then give the client a flat fee.




Great advice Ted. You know I have at times just gone right out and ask for the 'budget' on jobs like this. In 'some' cases I was surprised their number was higher than what I was thinking- in which case of course I said 'I can work with that' :D 


You might just say you are working out the numbers but 'what do you have in mind' - she says anything 6K and above, you tell her you will get back to her (in a day or two) and agree that you could - on this project work with that budget.

She says 10K - have her sign on the dotted line right away (before she changes her mind or finds other ways to use the money.)


Good luck on this.


Rob


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 11, 2007)

Rob Elliott @ 11/4/2007 said:


> Great advice Ted.



Thanks, Tob.

:mrgreen:


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## Mike Greene (Apr 11, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Apr 11 said:


> IMHO, charging by the hour makes you look more like a technician than an artist. Figure out how many days in your head, and then give the client a flat fee.


I agree with both Tob and Ted, but if she was already shocked by the $8,000 figure, he might need to lay it out why it's so much.

When I used to do demos for aspiring singers and rappers, I charged by the hour. One thing I learned was to always collect after each session and not let a tab start to run. Clients had no problem paying a couple hundred bucks at each session. But if I waited to bill them after a few sessions, I'd often get stiffed. In other words, they'd be able to pay $200, one day at a time for 5 sessions . . . but would almost always have trouble paying $1,000 all at once for the same 5 sessions.

The psychology of this is why the credit industry is so lucrative. It's why car dealerships stress what your PAYMENTS would be, rather than the total cost of the car. Most people can't save $25,000, but they can sure make a $500 a month payment.

So another option is to forget the flat fee altogether and charge an hourly rate as you go. Suppose she thinks $30/hour is reasonable. Bill her once a week or so and I'll bet in the end you wind up making more than the original $8,000 you asked for.

- Tike


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## Rob Elliott (Apr 11, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Apr 11 said:


> Rob Elliott @ 11/4/2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Great advice Ted.
> ...




Man Ned - you should have seen that 'typo' of a note I played on a gig last weekend. People were running for the exits, comments like - 'you suck, etc...' Wasn't purty :oops: . 

Sorry for hacking your name.


Sincerely, Tob 
:mrgreen:


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## esteso (Apr 11, 2007)

Thanks Ted, Tob and Tike, great advice on all fronts. I like Mike's psychology primer, it's true...... if someone asked me for $8000 I'd say, What? Are you out of your mind? So maybe the hourly fee route if she balks at $6000. At $35/hr I think I would end up making more money. (especially since I'm so slow) :lol: Just get paid every week.

Anyway, this is great. I feel a lot more equipped to negotiate now. I'll let you guys know what happened.

thx


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## Rob Elliott (Apr 11, 2007)

[quote:f71106560e="esteso @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:21 pm"]Thanks Ted, Tob and Tike, great advice on all fronts. I like Mike's psychology primer, it's true...... if someone asked me for $8000 I'd say, What? Are you out of your mind? So maybe the hourly fee route if she balks at $6000. AòÅ†   V'Å†   V(Å†   V)Å†   V*Å†   V+Å†   V,Å†   V-Å‡   V.Å‡   V/Å‡   V0Å‡   V1Å‡   V2Å‡   V3Å‡   V4Å‡   V5Å‡   V6Å‡   V7Å‡   V8Å‡   V9Å‡   V:Å‡   V;Å‡   V<Å‡   V=Å‡   V>Å‡   V?Å‡   V@Å‡   VAÅ‡   VBÅ‡   VCÅ‡   VDÅ‡   VEÅ‡   VFÅ‡   VGÅ‡   VHÅ‡   VIÅˆ   VJÅˆ   VKÅ‰   VLÅ‰   VMÅ‰   VNÅ‰


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## esteso (May 7, 2007)

Ok, I got the gig! but I decided to go down to $5000. 

My reasoning.... a really good composer can write 3 minutes a day. (very generally, but I needed a figure to start) a 60 minute CD therefore would take a fast composer 20 days. So let's say 160 hours (8 hour days, how cushy is that?) at $30/hr = $4800

So she gets a great deal at $5000 and I get the job. (PS half of the music is already written since that's how I amuse myself in my spare time)

So my hourly isn't that great but I'm happy since my stuff was just sitting on a shelf collecting dust and now it will be heard. And anyway, being new at this I'm thrilled to get paid at all. She's happy 'cause it's not $8000.


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## Vision (May 7, 2007)

Just curious.. but why not do a per minute bid? It's been quite a while since I've done a CD/CD Rom. That's the way I've always known to charge.


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## esteso (May 7, 2007)

Well it essentially is a per minute bid. Just semantics really.

But this is new territory for me so........?


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## esteso (May 8, 2007)

Ned,

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the heads up.

I think on this project I'm simply not able to get more than what I've bid already, but it's a good idea to have some kind of limit on rewrites. How would you structure something like that? I mean you want the client to be happy but for this kind of money you can't be spending an extra week or two tweaking it to perfection.

Actually now that I think about it, I'm not sure what constitutes a rewrite. Where do you draw the line and how do you make it clear to the client?


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## esteso (May 8, 2007)

Thanks guys,

Hi John, long time no see. I loved your line about the metal to mambo rewrite!

Yeah, I think you're right.... right now it's just about keeping the client happy and advancing. This particular client isn't the fussy type so it's probably a non-concern anyway.


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## Mike Greene (May 9, 2007)

Michael, it sounds like a worthwhile gig to me. I'll second (or I guess third, since I'm behind Ned) John's comments. Good luck with it! 8)


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## damoy (Jan 4, 2008)

Sorry to dig up this older thread, but I find this converation about rewrites very interesting. I've never included any caveats about rewrites, but I do include a buffer in anticipation of rewrites. So far, I've come out relatively unscathed - but maybe it's just luck (like Ned's) and someday this luck may run thin.

Should I be concerned about protecting myself from rewrite hell? If I have a producer that doesn't seem to mind a rewrite clause, should I include one? Or will it make me appear more focused on the money than the project/art?


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## Hannes_F (Jan 4, 2008)

I think I have an idea who your client is. In the case she is a little FREAKY she is selling lots of DVDs on congresses and a participation per sold DVD would not be such a bad idea.


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## Christian Marcussen (Jan 4, 2008)

damoy @ Fri Jan 04 said:


> Sorry to dig up this older thread, but I find this converation about rewrites very interesting. I've never included any caveats about rewrites, but I do include a buffer in anticipation of rewrites. So far, I've come out relatively unscathed - but maybe it's just luck (like Ned's) and someday this luck may run thin.
> 
> Should I be concerned about protecting myself from rewrite hell? If I have a producer that doesn't seem to mind a rewrite clause, should I include one? Or will it make me appear more focused on the money than the project/art?




I usually dont have one either. However I just got fucked big time in the rear for rewrites. Everytime the guy I just made happy said "you nailed it, perfect" someone higher up in the hierachy said "no, it's all wrong"... 5 times! shiiiit... So I'm definately considering some kind of clause.


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## damoy (Jan 4, 2008)

Ouch! 5 rewrites! This is the stuff composers nightmares are made of.

Hannes - I'm not understanding the participation per DVD sold bit. Can you clarify that a little?

-Daniel


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## damoy (Jan 7, 2008)

Anyone else have any opinions on this? Do you charge for a large number of re-writes, or just chalk it up to experience/practice?


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## Markus S (Jan 8, 2008)

I personally do calculte a kind of buffer in my/our fee. It means I fix the price including some reworks, because this is quite normal. You can call it also stylistic research, rather than rework. Sometimes you will hit the nail on the head from the beginning so everybody (including the client) will save time. Sometimes there are 3-5 reworks or more, to satisfy the client. It is a bit of a bet : You can loose and win, depending on the project.

But it is just not possible to know exactly what will fit in the project (at least if you compose for computer games), you actually need someone very familiar with the project that can guide you. The more communication, the better. So again, reworks (on a certain measure) are quite normal, especially in the beginning of a project.

I personally have very rarely seen a client that abuses of reworks in the professional area. If the track is right for them, then they will keep it the way it is. If not, well then it is our job to get it right, but I think it is important to trust the client in his judgment.


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