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The Adventures of Creating a Choir Library - April 26, 2024 Update - Wait ... we've spent HOW MUCH???

Wait a minute ... going back to Peter's question, maybe it would be worth recording another day of strings, so we could get a full octave of intervals, as well as maybe some other stuff.
It's a shame that the current system doesn't allow you to charge for new content, because if that "other stuff" included more shorts, I'd be willing to pay an upgrade fee.

Ideally, at least for me, the "Staccato" that's already there would be re-purposed as a Staccatissimo, then have an added slower variation as a Staccato, and a faster variation as a Spiccato.
 
"Sounds like Tavener!"
"...Yyyyyyyyyes!"

I laughed out loud. Mike rules.
A much kinder response than others may have offered, so thank you. :grin:

Nick doesn't have a very loud voice, so I had no idea who or what he said it sounds like, so I had to decide (in the moment!) do I ask what he said, or do I just fake it and roll with it. Looking back, I'm glad I chose "roll with it," because to tell you the truth (and as you may have guessed), I don't know who (or what) Tavener is, so that could have been even more embarrassing!

isn't that EW, and aren't they in a former commercial studio already? I believe that Bill Putnam built both facilities, although that could be folklore, and I'm to lazy to look it up. Regardless they are both first class studios. What a history!
You're right, they were both built by Bill Putman. I think United was first, then he built "Western," which is now East West. Fun trivia - the main rooms at United are Studio A and Studio B, while at Western, they're named Studio 1 and Studio 2.

Our contractor actually suggested East West for Sunset Strings, since it would be a little cheaper, but I told her it might be a little awkward if Doug Rogers happened to stop by. Doug (or Nick Phoenix, for that matter) have never been fans of mine, I guess since they didn't appreciate some of my NAMM Report jokes. (Is it my fault they were such easy targets? I mean ... if you're going to boast that you were getting standing ovations when demoing Gypsy at your NAMM booth, how can I not point out that there was no seating in the booth???) In fact, when I bought the forum, the first thing Doug did was cancel their ads. ~sigh~ As my mom would often warn me, "Not everybody thinks you're as funny as you do."

More useless trivia - Across the aisle from us at NAMM was Ocean Way (United became Ocean Way for a couple decades when Allen Sides owned it), where they were demonstrating speakers. I introduced myself to Allen and said he might be interested to know we recorded at his old studio, but apparently, he already knew. He pointed at our banner (a picture of the women being recorded) and said "That's Studio A."
 
In the continuing "Editing Legatos Is Hard!" saga, we're making some progress, and now have a functioning Men Slow Oo Legato instrument working. (Yeah, I know that means we still have 23 legatos to go, but you take the progress where you can get it!)

Jayden did a quick noodle with it, which I think sounds pretty cool, so:
View attachment MEN Oo Slow Legato_JL Noodle.mp3
 
A much kinder response than others may have offered, so thank you. :grin:

Nick doesn't have a very loud voice, so I had no idea who or what he said it sounds like, so I had to decide (in the moment!) do I ask what he said, or do I just fake it and roll with it. Looking back, I'm glad I chose "roll with it," because to tell you the truth (and as you may have guessed), I don't know who (or what) Tavener is, so that could have been even more embarrassing!


You're right, they were both built by Bill Putman. I think United was first, then he built "Western," which is now East West. Fun trivia - the main rooms at United are Studio A and Studio B, while at Western, they're named Studio 1 and Studio 2.

Our contractor actually suggested East West for Sunset Strings, since it would be a little cheaper, but I told her it might be a little awkward if Doug Rogers happened to stop by. Doug (or Nick Phoenix, for that matter) have never been fans of mine, I guess since they didn't appreciate some of my NAMM Report jokes. (Is it my fault they were such easy targets? I mean ... if you're going to boast that you were getting standing ovations when demoing Gypsy at your NAMM booth, how can I not point out that there was no seating in the booth???) In fact, when I bought the forum, the first thing Doug did was cancel their ads. ~sigh~ As my mom would often warn me, "Not everybody thinks you're as funny as you do."

More useless trivia - Across the aisle from us at NAMM was Ocean Way (United became Ocean Way for a couple decades when Allen Sides owned it), where they were demonstrating speakers. I introduced myself to Allen and said he might be interested to know we recorded at his old studio, but apparently, he already knew. He pointed at our banner (a picture of the women being recorded) and said "That's Studio A."
Oh Mike, you are clearly very funny. People laugh at you all the time! :P
 
It's a lovely sound! Great chord progression too.

That is just glorious.
This is the best choral sound I’ve heard in a virtual instrument, and my primary role as a musician is as a classical choral conductor of a top ensemble. I’d be glad to chat with you about how to target this to a range of conductors, music educators, and classical composers to do mock-ups for their singers.
 
I'm glad I chose "roll with it," because to tell you the truth (and as you may have guessed), I don't know who (or what) Tavener is,
"Like Arvo Pärt and Henryk Górecki, Tavener’s early musical training was in the fashionable white-hot furnace of the avant-garde in the 1960s. While at London’s Royal Academy of Music, his studies with Lennox Berkeley led to exposure to the music of Boulez, Ligeti and Messiaen; at the same time, he grew friendly with The Beatles and John Lennon invited Tavener to record his dizzying psychedelic musical melange ‘The Whale’ on the Beatles’ Apple label which brought impressive early recognition.

But Tavener was dissatisfied with the avant-garde and sought a purer, more uncluttered style. His journey into Eastern Christianity, and from there to Sufism and Hinduism, led to the creation of his most significant works, including The Lamb, Resurrection, The Protecting Veil, Song for Athene and The Veil of The Temple. In these works, liturgical chant is layered with clean harmonies and eastern rhythms, creating profound music of haunting spirituality whose roots lie in the ancient chants of the Orthodox Church but which is also startlingly contemporary.

Tavener’s music has a mesmeric simplicity and ethereal spaciousness in which the smallest gestures have great significance (The Lamb, for example, comprises just seven notes, ingeniously crafted into a work of intoxicating beauty). It is music which demands attentive listening: as each simple melodic line opens up, one has the sense of something far greater stretching into the infinite, and of time suspended, blissful and meditative."

cf. https://interlude.hk/holy-minimalism/


I mean ... I really don't think you're going for that "Tavener sound" per se ...

... but there's a quality of that demo that I can see *really* working for a certain type of holy minimalist inspired and aspiring composer ...



Or even for more pedestrian attempts at your garden variety "intoxicating works of beauty", "time of suspended, blissful and meditative" and/or "profound music of haunting spirituality". (And probably some other use cases also, I'm sure)


In any event, the point remains rather uncomplicated:



glorious.
 
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In the continuing "Editing Legatos Is Hard!" saga, we're making some progress, and now have a functioning Men Slow Oo Legato instrument working. (Yeah, I know that means we still have 23 legatos to go, but you take the progress where you can get it!)

Jayden did a quick noodle with it, which I think sounds pretty cool, so:
View attachment MEN Oo Slow Legato_JL Noodle.mp3
That's just incredible! Love the sound and the legato sounds soooooo cool! Can't wait to hear more :)
 
IT’S GETTING CLOSE, RIGHT?

I can dream, can’t I? But alas, we’re still at least a couple months away. And when I say “we’re a couple months away,” then that means … ugh, I don’t even want to think about what the real timeline must be.

On the bright side, the reasons it’s taking so long aren’t bad ones. No major problems or data losses or anything like that. It’s just that this project is much bigger than I thought, compounded by the fact that we’re all pretty fussy about what’s “good enough.” (I know that sounds like marketing hype, but I’m speaking not just for Realitone, but for many of the smaller boutique companies. Audiobro, Performance Samples … these aren’t “Cut corners to increase profits” guys.)

BUT MIKE, ISN’T THIS GETTING EXPENSIVE?

Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Hell yes. If we ever wanted proof that I’m a terrible at business, this project proves it. Don’t get me wrong, I understand what a smart businessman should do. But understanding and doing are two different things. I try to be smart, but I keep failing.

Case in point - 18 months ago, in my first post of this thread (or more accurately, Part 2 of that first entry), I figured income from this library would be in the $200k to $300k range. I speculated $400k might be possible, but that would be optimistic, so I wanted to keep my expectations in check.

For those who don’t remember every detail of all my posts (how dare you!), the basis for those estimates is that Sunset Strings grossed around $500k. That’s great, but those aren’t typical sales numbers, so we need to temper our expectations with the fact that strings are a much easier sell than choirs, plus I can’t count on Sunset Choir being as well received as Sunset Strings. (Even Daniel James had nice things to say about Sunset Strings … and I had once banned him!)

The sample library business hasn’t gotten more lucrative in the 18 months since I wrote that, but contrary to what some people believe, it hasn’t gotten less lucrative, either. At least not much less, so those numbers are probably still reasonable guesses today. (And hopefully still will be in 2026 when we actually release this thing!) $200k was probably a bit pessimistic, though, so let’s say $300k is our estimate. (Please, please, please let $300k be a better estimate than $200k!)

So if that’s the income side of the equation, then how much have we spent? Obviously we’re still under $300k, of course, since only an idiot would spend over $300k to create a library that will only make $300k, right?

Uhhh … meet your humble idiot. For starters, recording costs were $160k. ($100k for the November session, then $60k more for the March pickups.) Then, the guys have this crazy expectation that they should get paid. There are a bunch of us now, so labor so far is around $140k.

So we’re already at $300k. (Gulp!) But wait, there’s more! We’ll still need to have this thing encoded and buy some licenses. So add another $10k to $20k for that. And if I want to actually sell this thing, I’m going to need to buy some ads. I spent around $75k on Sunset Strings ads, and I imagine this will be similar.

So we’re already pushing $400k, and that’s just the hard costs, which doesn’t include my time. (Dare I expect to get paid myself?) Nor does it include “opportunity costs,” meaning if you go 18 months without a release, there’s the lost “opportunity” of making money in other ways. Putting my gigolo business on hold, for instance. Errr, I mean releasing other products which take less time and could already be making money now.

REASSESSMENT TIME

So how did this happen??? How did a project where I thought I’d walk away with one or two hundred grand in my pocket turn into a money losing proposition?

First, the scope of the project increased. (Anyone here ever remodeled a house? Then you’re going to be nodding your head at this next part.)

Recall that the original recording budget was $100k, not $160k. We added a few days in March because “For just a little more money, we can make this library even better!”

That’s a rookie trap, and I should have known better. Libraries can always be better if you’re willing to keep throwing more time and money at them, but there’s a point of diminishing returns, where spending 60% more in recording costs (with an additional corresponding increase in editing costs) is *not* going to net 60% more in sales.

Yep, rookie mistake. (Made even more embarrassing by the fact that I’m not a rookie!)

Here’s the thing, though - I don’t necessarily regret it. The risk has gone way up, obviously, but this library is turning out to be much “more” than we originally thought, so I think the back end could get pretty high. Choirs are still a more difficult sell than strings, but <hype warning> the deeper I get into this, the more I think this is a damn good library, and I’m not sure there’s anything else like it.</hype warning> So I’m pretty confident it can make $400k on the back end.

Or at least close enough that I won’t take too much of a bath on it. I’m in a fortunate position where I can handle risks, since I already had a songwriter/composing career that paid off our house and this studio. I’m not in a position where I can set piles of cash on fire, mind you, but I can still sustain a moderate loss or two. So even with this going into high risk territory, I’m having fun with this.

And … I hesitate to actually say this out loud, but the optimist in me thinks there’s a possibility this might do really well. I fully understand it could lose money, but thinking it could do really well … I gotta admit, the gambling aspect of this is fun. Well … at least until my wife finds out …

Continued in next post ...
 
PRICING, PRICING, PRICING

Assuming we eventually finish this thing, we’re going to need to figure out pricing. Honestly, for the full collection, I still don’t know what to charge for this. In terms of the time and expense put into it, a high price would be justified. (At least from my perspective, not necessarily yours.) It’s way bigger than Sunset Strings, plus includes legato, which the strings didn’t.

But this still comes down to a game of “income” = “price” x “number of sales.” For example, if I price this at $600, but sell less than half as many copies as I would have at $300, then that means a $600 price point is less profitable than at $300. I don’t happen to own a crystal ball, though, so it’s a guessing game.)

There’s another factor, though. People keep telling me, “You can always lower a price, but you can’t raise it.” This is a good point, and I don’t want to trap myself into prioritizing a great first year at the sacrifice of subsequent years. We sold a whole lot of copies of the Ladies at $299 (sale price from $399 list.) Then about 5 years ago, I dropped the list and sale prices by a hundred bucks. I had room to do that. Contrast that with Sunset Strings, where I don’t have that room. (Not that I regret pricing it how I did mind you, but it’s already at a “can’t go much lower” price.)

I admire OT for the boldness of charging 799€ for Wallfisch Strings. I don’t know what their numbers are on it, but they’re not dummies, so I assume they’ve done well with it. And even if it turns out that this first year is disappointing, they can sell it for half off later and clean up.

Especially since that 799€ price, justified or not, gives it a perceived higher value. Speaking for myself, I have yet to listen to any demos of Wallfisch Strings, but I assume it must be really good because it’s expensive. It’s basic marketing psychology.

One comparison point is that this library has more content than, say, Spitfire’s Eric Whitacre Choir. But if I priced mine significantly lower, I’d be sending a message that I don’t have confidence that Sunset Choir competes favorably in quality to EWC, so I bargain priced it to compensate. Ouch. It might make more money to do that, and who knows, maybe I will. (Eric Whitacre’s $599 price is from a few years ago, so it might not be priced the same if it were released today.) But if I want to play with the big boys, I need to not be afraid to price like the big boys.

Then again, money is nice, so … I reserve the right to throw everything I just said out the window and price this at $199! :grin:

We’ll have a Lite version as well, since not everyone can justify spending a pile of money on a choir library, so we’ll have a Lite version as well. What will be in it? Heck if I know. We don’t even have a working full version yet.

An interesting thing about Lite versions: With Realivox Ladies, we sell “Complete Ladies,” which people buy mostly when it’s on sale at $199, and we sell “Ladies Lite” which people mostly buy on sale at $99.

Guess which one sells more copies. Come on, guess. Ready? Ladies Lite sells maybe 10% as many copies as the complete Ladies do. It’s crazy, right? I’m half tempted to pull the Lite version off the website, just so the Ladies page would be cleaner.

Mind you, Ladies Lite has significantly less content than the Complete Ladies, but it does include the most important articulations - The oo’s and ah’s (including legatos), which is the main thing people use the Ladies for. (Background harmonies.) So I would have expected the Lite version to be the bigger seller, but it isn’t. Part of this might be that the price difference between $99 and $199 (on sale) isn’t that big, whereas the Choir Complete/Lite price difference will be bigger. It’s all so complicated!

WHAT ABOUT MAYBE HAVING A TEASER VERSION?

So there will be a Complete version and Lite version, but with all these delays, we’re looking into doing a teaser version. Probably like 30 bucks, maybe limited to just the Oo vowel (the most commonly used vowel), along with some other things so the library would actually be useful, so people could see why they might want a library like this. (Price would be applied to purchases of the Lite or Complete choir.)

I go back and forth on whether I think we should do this, though. It certainly wouldn’t be for the upfront money, because you can’t get rich selling 30 dollar libraries. (I learned that when we released RealiBanjo. Incredible quantity numbers … less incredible total dollar numbers. Same lesson with RealiWhisle. Big seller, but it doesn’t move the bank account needle.)

So the real purpose would be to introduce the marketplace to what we’re working on, and maybe get some advance interest. (99% of our customer base has no idea we’re working on a choir.)

There are some downsides, though. It’s more work, obviously. As if we need more distractions on this project.

Another concern is I wonder about whether doing this could actually result in making less money overall. This is a crazy thought process, but hear me out on this.

There are a whole lot of people who don’t really use the libraries they buy. They like the idea of having these libraries, and maybe playing a couple things when they first get it, but that initial dopamine rush is the real goal. (I’m guilty myself of this at times.)

So if there’s a $30 option where then can get that rush, and play with 2 Layers, and the Attacks/Releases, and a Repetitions articulation or two … they might not be craving the full fix. The newness is gone, so there’s not so much dopamine released in an upgrade purchase.

Or maybe I’m over-thinking it. (As I’m prone to do, as evidenced by this thread.) It’s at least a month or two before we can pull the trigger on doing that, anyway.
 
PRICING, PRICING, PRICING

Assuming we eventually finish this thing, we’re going to need to figure out pricing. Honestly, for the full collection, I still don’t know what to charge for this. In terms of the time and expense put into it, a high price would be justified. (At least from my perspective, not necessarily yours.) It’s way bigger than Sunset Strings, plus includes legato, which the strings didn’t.

But this still comes down to a game of “income” = “price” x “number of sales.” For example, if I price this at $600, but sell less than half as many copies as I would have at $300, then that means a $600 price point is less profitable than at $300. I don’t happen to own a crystal ball, though, so it’s a guessing game.)

There’s another factor, though. People keep telling me, “You can always lower a price, but you can’t raise it.” This is a good point, and I don’t want to trap myself into prioritizing a great first year at the sacrifice of subsequent years. We sold a whole lot of copies of the Ladies at $299 (sale price from $399 list.) Then about 5 years ago, I dropped the list and sale prices by a hundred bucks. I had room to do that. Contrast that with Sunset Strings, where I don’t have that room. (Not that I regret pricing it how I did mind you, but it’s already at a “can’t go much lower” price.)

I admire OT for the boldness of charging 799€ for Wallfisch Strings. I don’t know what their numbers are on it, but they’re not dummies, so I assume they’ve done well with it. And even if it turns out that this first year is disappointing, they can sell it for half off later and clean up.

Especially since that 799€ price, justified or not, gives it a perceived higher value. Speaking for myself, I have yet to listen to any demos of Wallfisch Strings, but I assume it must be really good because it’s expensive. It’s basic marketing psychology.

One comparison point is that this library has more content than, say, Spitfire’s Eric Whitacre Choir. But if I priced mine significantly lower, I’d be sending a message that I don’t have confidence that Sunset Choir competes favorably in quality to EWC, so I bargain priced it to compensate. Ouch. It might make more money to do that, and who knows, maybe I will. (Eric Whitacre’s $599 price is from a few years ago, so it might not be priced the same if it were released today.) But if I want to play with the big boys, I need to not be afraid to price like the big boys.

Then again, money is nice, so … I reserve the right to throw everything I just said out the window and price this at $199! :grin:

We’ll have a Lite version as well, since not everyone can justify spending a pile of money on a choir library, so we’ll have a Lite version as well. What will be in it? Heck if I know. We don’t even have a working full version yet.

An interesting thing about Lite versions: With Realivox Ladies, we sell “Complete Ladies,” which people buy mostly when it’s on sale at $199, and we sell “Ladies Lite” which people mostly buy on sale at $99.

Guess which one sells more copies. Come on, guess. Ready? Ladies Lite sells maybe 10% as many copies as the complete Ladies do. It’s crazy, right? I’m half tempted to pull the Lite version off the website, just so the Ladies page would be cleaner.

Mind you, Ladies Lite has significantly less content than the Complete Ladies, but it does include the most important articulations - The oo’s and ah’s (including legatos), which is the main thing people use the Ladies for. (Background harmonies.) So I would have expected the Lite version to be the bigger seller, but it isn’t. Part of this might be that the price difference between $99 and $199 (on sale) isn’t that big, whereas the Choir Complete/Lite price difference will be bigger. It’s all so complicated!

WHAT ABOUT MAYBE HAVING A TEASER VERSION?

So there will be a Complete version and Lite version, but with all these delays, we’re looking into doing a teaser version. Probably like 30 bucks, maybe limited to just the Oo vowel (the most commonly used vowel), along with some other things so the library would actually be useful, so people could see why they might want a library like this. (Price would be applied to purchases of the Lite or Complete choir.)

I go back and forth on whether I think we should do this, though. It certainly wouldn’t be for the upfront money, because you can’t get rich selling 30 dollar libraries. (I learned that when we released RealiBanjo. Incredible quantity numbers … less incredible total dollar numbers. Same lesson with RealiWhisle. Big seller, but it doesn’t move the bank account needle.)

So the real purpose would be to introduce the marketplace to what we’re working on, and maybe get some advance interest. (99% of our customer base has no idea we’re working on a choir.)

There are some downsides, though. It’s more work, obviously. As if we need more distractions on this project.

Another concern is I wonder about whether doing this could actually result in making less money overall. This is a crazy thought process, but hear me out on this.

There are a whole lot of people who don’t really use the libraries they buy. They like the idea of having these libraries, and maybe playing a couple things when they first get it, but that initial dopamine rush is the real goal. (I’m guilty myself of this at times.)

So if there’s a $30 option where then can get that rush, and play with 2 Layers, and the Attacks/Releases, and a Repetitions articulation or two … they might not be craving the full fix. The newness is gone, so there’s not so much dopamine released in an upgrade purchase.

Or maybe I’m over-thinking it. (As I’m prone to do, as evidenced by this thread.) It’s at least a month or two before we can pull the trigger on doing that, anyway.
I love these posts and I find them incredibly effective marketing for someone like me who’s rather jaded by traditional marketing, though I enjoy analyzing it. I know these posts mostly aren’t aiming to be marketing but behind the scenes tales, but I’m also very drawn to such stories. All I’m saying I guess is keep them coming! I’m very excited about the choir!
 
Wow, more content than EWC! You should make it $499 regular, $399 intro, and go f'ing nuts with the advertising. You only need to sell a thousand copies to break even, and judging by the demos, its amazing and should outsell EWC.

And next year you can always make it $399 regular, $299 on sale and go nuts again with ads.
 
As someone who often fantasizes about giving “The Man” the finger and starting up my own thing - possibly in VI development - I appreciate you sharing all this info and thought process. Very illuminating, thank you! 👍
 
This account can't help but evoking an image of Mike (and co-conspirators), as they pour all their life energy (and Mike's money) into this choir, quietly muttering the mantra "We're on a mission from God" with suitable Blues Brothers intonation every time they need to swat away yet another pesky Mr Literal Pants economic reality in fulfilment of the library's true mission.


And it reminds me of just how much I just absolutely love sample libraries.
 
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