EDIT - Links to update posts:
Post for Week 2 ::: Oct 27, 2022 -Preparation for the Sessions
Post for Week 3 ::: Nov 7, 2022 - Choir Recorded - with pix and sound
Post for Week 10 ::: Dec 20, 2022 - Editing Begins
Post for Week 18 ::: March 8, 2023 - Back at United for session #2
Post for Week 24 ::: April 18, 2023 - Post-NAMM Report
Post for Week 62 ::: January 8, 2024 - Why, Oh Why Did We Do Legatos???
Post for Week 76 ::: April 25, 2024 - Wait ... we've spent HOW MUCH???
--------------------------------------------
Have you ever wondered what the process of creating a sample library is like? Have you ever wished a long-winded, self-indulgent egomaniac would explain that process? Then you’re in luck!
We’re in the early stages (recording starts in two weeks) of making a choir version of Sunset Strings. People often ask how much it costs to make a library, or why developers make the choices they do, so I thought it might be interesting to post a thread where I post in real time about what’s happening at various stages.
For the cynics out there, this is not intended to be an ultra-long teaser, and I promise not to fill this with a bunch of “OMG! This is sounding so amazing!” hype. That would be boring. Plus a year-long teaser isn’t going to fool anyone, since once we release it, you’ll actually hear it, so no amount of pre-release hype is going to fool you into thinking it’s better than it is.
Instead, this is all about me loving to talk about this stuff. Realitone is like a third career for me. (Records, then TV, then this.) So it’s all new and fun as I learn the various aspects. Even learning about marketing is fun, because it’s a new challenge. Of course, not everyone wants to hear my ramblings (as I’ve learned when I watch people run away from me at NAMM), but the thread title and these opening paragraphs should serve as fair warning for my self-indulgence.
Posting will be infrequent, maybe every month or two. I’ll try to post about internal discussions where we make conceptual decisions, or maybe even some in-progress examples.
For now, we’re calling this project Sunset Choirs, but I don’t actually know what it will be in the end. For perspective, Sunset Strings is waaayyy different from what we planned it to be, and part of the fun was letting it take us where it wanted to go. So who knows where this choir project will lead us.
With that said, we do have a plan. The Sunset Strings template is already in place and at our disposal, so if we can record similar things in a choir context, then this should be pretty easy. Although … I always think each project is going to be pretty easy, and I have yet to be right in that assessment, so I’m guessing this will be an interesting ride.
Let me start by explaining why we’re doing a choir library, starting with the backstory leading up to it:
SUNSET STRINGS
This was more successful than I expected, so the obvious thought was “Let’s do more of those!” With Covid, though, recording more orchestral material was impossible, so we decided to do a few bonus patches for Sunset Strings, which we could all do from home. As often happens, though, that got way out of control and we wound up with Nightfall.
You’ll notice I keep saying “we.” Jayden and Vincent have been working with me on this stuff since Sunset Strings. They’re both real composers, while I’m more of a songwriter who buys a lot of sample libraries and took a couple “How to Write Good for Orchestra” courses at UCLA Extention.
The sounds in Nightfall are mostly Vincent and Jayden, because they’re the experts in this stuff. Even Sunset Strings was not totally in my wheelhouse. Don’t get me wrong, I have lots of string libraries and I’ve written my share of orchestral cues. But “Ricochets” or even “Sul Tasto” were not terms I'd typically use. That was all Jayden and Vincent, as well as another guy named Mike, who also had a huge hand in the conceptualizing and creation of Sunset.
The 2-Layer system, the Repetitions concept, and making attacks and releases link to the sustains? That’s me. Figuring out what the string section should actually play? That’s Jayden, Vincent and Mike.
NIGHTFALL - FINALLY FINISHED!
Nightfall was supposed to just take a couple weeks, but it took over a year, as we kept getting more and more ideas and decided to make an actual instrument out of it. We finally finished it a couple weeks ago. (We added more stuff after the pre-release.) We sent it to NI for encoding, so we started talking about what to do next.
Now, I have a whole bunch of libraries (Realivox Men, Mandolin, Latin Percussion, Archtop, Organs, Mini Moog, etc.) in various stages of completion, but those are more along the lines of the pop products I did before Sunset Strings. They’re fun for me, but Jayden and Vincent are more serious composers than I am, and given that Sunset sold insanely well (and Nightfall ain’t doin’ so bad, either) I don’t want to turn off that valve for the sake of a ukulele I’ll be lucky to sell for $49.
My theory is that composers will spend hundreds on an orchestral product without batting an eye. (I mean … have you ever visited VI-Control?
) But the pop customer base is really tight with a dollar. Don’t get me wrong, the songwriter crowd will buy stuff. In fact, our all-time best money-maker is Realivox Ladies, not Sunset. (Mind you, it’s been out for 10 years, compared to two years for Sunset.) Sunset isn’t even in second place. That would be Blue. So there’s a strong market for the pop libraries.
But strings is easier. Plus ... less tech support! Everybody here knows what a rar file is, and how Kontakt works, and how to enter a serial number on Native Access. So compare that to the people buying Hip Hop Creator? Fuggetaboutit.
SO … WHAT LIBRARY TO DO NEXT?
Jayden and Vincent wanted to do a string quintet, or maybe even a full strings library. We settled on a string quintet, where we’d record each of the five pieces separately. Essentially five solo instruments in one package, but all recorded in the same room for a cohesive sound. Doing the math, that’s going to entail a massive number of days, and studio time at United is expensive, and needs to be booked in advance, so we need an accurate idea beforehand of how many days to book.
That’s important, because you can’t simply tack on extra days. (Someone else already reserved days after us.) And if you come back a month later, can you be sure all the mics will be in exactly the same position? Even with measurements and pictures, I don’t trust that, so I’m a fanatic for consecutive lockout days. Nothing moves, nobody touches the console, and there’s tape on the floor marking exactly where each chair should be. If we record a sustain on Day 1, everybody’s position needs to match perfectly with a sustain we record on Day 5. (With all due respect to some other libraries out there, I don’t want the stereo imaging bouncing around from note to note.)
So I decided to do a couple test days. Record a violin in the morning and a cello in the afternoon. Take those recordings and start editing the legatos and transitions to see exactly what we can get away with and determine how many days a final product will take to record.
It’s basically a 10 or 15 thousand dollar experiment. Better to invest that now, because the real thing will cost a whole lot more, and we don’t want nasty surprises.
Costs would obviously be much lower if we used my studio (free!), but my studio is a pop studio, where Studio A only has a 20’x18’ live room. United Studio A has a much larger room and better acoustics, which makes a huge difference for this sort of thing. So in the grand scheme of things, IMO the expense is worth it.
A LITTLE ASIDE ON UPFRONT COSTS
This is a good time to mention that you don’t want to focus too much on upfront costs. It’s important, of course, but the bigger question is how many copies will you be able to sell? More to the point, will spending a little more upfront increase those sales numbers later? Ideally we get to the point where we’re selling so many copies that it doesn’t matter how much we spent upfront. That’s the case with Sunset, and I’m soooo glad we didn’t go the cheap route.
Continued in next post...
Post for Week 2 ::: Oct 27, 2022 -Preparation for the Sessions
Post for Week 3 ::: Nov 7, 2022 - Choir Recorded - with pix and sound
Post for Week 10 ::: Dec 20, 2022 - Editing Begins
Post for Week 18 ::: March 8, 2023 - Back at United for session #2
Post for Week 24 ::: April 18, 2023 - Post-NAMM Report
Post for Week 62 ::: January 8, 2024 - Why, Oh Why Did We Do Legatos???
Post for Week 76 ::: April 25, 2024 - Wait ... we've spent HOW MUCH???
--------------------------------------------
Have you ever wondered what the process of creating a sample library is like? Have you ever wished a long-winded, self-indulgent egomaniac would explain that process? Then you’re in luck!
We’re in the early stages (recording starts in two weeks) of making a choir version of Sunset Strings. People often ask how much it costs to make a library, or why developers make the choices they do, so I thought it might be interesting to post a thread where I post in real time about what’s happening at various stages.
For the cynics out there, this is not intended to be an ultra-long teaser, and I promise not to fill this with a bunch of “OMG! This is sounding so amazing!” hype. That would be boring. Plus a year-long teaser isn’t going to fool anyone, since once we release it, you’ll actually hear it, so no amount of pre-release hype is going to fool you into thinking it’s better than it is.
Instead, this is all about me loving to talk about this stuff. Realitone is like a third career for me. (Records, then TV, then this.) So it’s all new and fun as I learn the various aspects. Even learning about marketing is fun, because it’s a new challenge. Of course, not everyone wants to hear my ramblings (as I’ve learned when I watch people run away from me at NAMM), but the thread title and these opening paragraphs should serve as fair warning for my self-indulgence.
Posting will be infrequent, maybe every month or two. I’ll try to post about internal discussions where we make conceptual decisions, or maybe even some in-progress examples.
For now, we’re calling this project Sunset Choirs, but I don’t actually know what it will be in the end. For perspective, Sunset Strings is waaayyy different from what we planned it to be, and part of the fun was letting it take us where it wanted to go. So who knows where this choir project will lead us.
With that said, we do have a plan. The Sunset Strings template is already in place and at our disposal, so if we can record similar things in a choir context, then this should be pretty easy. Although … I always think each project is going to be pretty easy, and I have yet to be right in that assessment, so I’m guessing this will be an interesting ride.
Let me start by explaining why we’re doing a choir library, starting with the backstory leading up to it:
SUNSET STRINGS
This was more successful than I expected, so the obvious thought was “Let’s do more of those!” With Covid, though, recording more orchestral material was impossible, so we decided to do a few bonus patches for Sunset Strings, which we could all do from home. As often happens, though, that got way out of control and we wound up with Nightfall.
You’ll notice I keep saying “we.” Jayden and Vincent have been working with me on this stuff since Sunset Strings. They’re both real composers, while I’m more of a songwriter who buys a lot of sample libraries and took a couple “How to Write Good for Orchestra” courses at UCLA Extention.
The sounds in Nightfall are mostly Vincent and Jayden, because they’re the experts in this stuff. Even Sunset Strings was not totally in my wheelhouse. Don’t get me wrong, I have lots of string libraries and I’ve written my share of orchestral cues. But “Ricochets” or even “Sul Tasto” were not terms I'd typically use. That was all Jayden and Vincent, as well as another guy named Mike, who also had a huge hand in the conceptualizing and creation of Sunset.
The 2-Layer system, the Repetitions concept, and making attacks and releases link to the sustains? That’s me. Figuring out what the string section should actually play? That’s Jayden, Vincent and Mike.
NIGHTFALL - FINALLY FINISHED!
Nightfall was supposed to just take a couple weeks, but it took over a year, as we kept getting more and more ideas and decided to make an actual instrument out of it. We finally finished it a couple weeks ago. (We added more stuff after the pre-release.) We sent it to NI for encoding, so we started talking about what to do next.
Now, I have a whole bunch of libraries (Realivox Men, Mandolin, Latin Percussion, Archtop, Organs, Mini Moog, etc.) in various stages of completion, but those are more along the lines of the pop products I did before Sunset Strings. They’re fun for me, but Jayden and Vincent are more serious composers than I am, and given that Sunset sold insanely well (and Nightfall ain’t doin’ so bad, either) I don’t want to turn off that valve for the sake of a ukulele I’ll be lucky to sell for $49.
My theory is that composers will spend hundreds on an orchestral product without batting an eye. (I mean … have you ever visited VI-Control?
But strings is easier. Plus ... less tech support! Everybody here knows what a rar file is, and how Kontakt works, and how to enter a serial number on Native Access. So compare that to the people buying Hip Hop Creator? Fuggetaboutit.
SO … WHAT LIBRARY TO DO NEXT?
Jayden and Vincent wanted to do a string quintet, or maybe even a full strings library. We settled on a string quintet, where we’d record each of the five pieces separately. Essentially five solo instruments in one package, but all recorded in the same room for a cohesive sound. Doing the math, that’s going to entail a massive number of days, and studio time at United is expensive, and needs to be booked in advance, so we need an accurate idea beforehand of how many days to book.
That’s important, because you can’t simply tack on extra days. (Someone else already reserved days after us.) And if you come back a month later, can you be sure all the mics will be in exactly the same position? Even with measurements and pictures, I don’t trust that, so I’m a fanatic for consecutive lockout days. Nothing moves, nobody touches the console, and there’s tape on the floor marking exactly where each chair should be. If we record a sustain on Day 1, everybody’s position needs to match perfectly with a sustain we record on Day 5. (With all due respect to some other libraries out there, I don’t want the stereo imaging bouncing around from note to note.)
So I decided to do a couple test days. Record a violin in the morning and a cello in the afternoon. Take those recordings and start editing the legatos and transitions to see exactly what we can get away with and determine how many days a final product will take to record.
It’s basically a 10 or 15 thousand dollar experiment. Better to invest that now, because the real thing will cost a whole lot more, and we don’t want nasty surprises.
Costs would obviously be much lower if we used my studio (free!), but my studio is a pop studio, where Studio A only has a 20’x18’ live room. United Studio A has a much larger room and better acoustics, which makes a huge difference for this sort of thing. So in the grand scheme of things, IMO the expense is worth it.
A LITTLE ASIDE ON UPFRONT COSTS
This is a good time to mention that you don’t want to focus too much on upfront costs. It’s important, of course, but the bigger question is how many copies will you be able to sell? More to the point, will spending a little more upfront increase those sales numbers later? Ideally we get to the point where we’re selling so many copies that it doesn’t matter how much we spent upfront. That’s the case with Sunset, and I’m soooo glad we didn’t go the cheap route.
Continued in next post...
Last edited:
) But I don’t want to come off as tacky about it in a public post, so if this all seems indiscreet, my apologies for that.
