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Spitfire Studio Brass

Rich - quite interested in your critique here, but may I respectfully suggest that lines like this:


If you want to play minimalist shorts like a robot army, have at. If you want something that sounds like brass and can play brass parts, look elsewhere - IMO, YMMV.



might pay lip service to respecting a diversity of opinion, yet its very hard not to read his as an insult an anyone who might actually like the library. And, speaking as someone who really likes almost all of what I've hear of this library so far, it's kind of a vicious personal insult on our musical judgement if you think about it, if perhaps an unintended one. I'm interested in your critique - but when I read a line like think I just get that sinking feeling because, well, this is the internet.


And then line like this:

I understand you and @jbuhler have sunk costs, as do I!

Risks giving the impression that you're further attacking anyone disagreeing with you by suggesting that their moves aren't honest.

Which I mention, because I'm quite interested in the points your making and would really like to seem them substantively engaged (so it's really unfortunate the tone some of this is taking here).

A question though - I do hear that lack of a pronounced attack on the horn you point out - although I also quite like the soft attack in context. Is this the sort of library where you can craft the dynamics of the individual note with the mod wheel? Some library do this brilliant (including most spitfire libraries), buy many not so much. (I'm not really sure what's reasonably to expect from brass libraries - so apologies for my ignorance, the only dedicated full brass library I have is so terrible that Paul and Christian could sample a kazoo and it be over the moon at what an improvement it is (so long as it was in AIR) ). Very hard to tell from what I've seen what capacity we have for crafting the dynamics. You can do this to great effect with the new solo strings, so wondering if the same might be true for the brass?


Update - you do speak to this point to in that last post to some extent in the above - so thanks, that was helpful. So now I'd refine my question to I think much the same thing @jbuhler has been asking - can you get a better attack 'blooming' at higher values of cc1?

Because on its own, what I'd be most likely to conclude from you example that Spitfire probably intended the soft dyanamic to have a soft attack as a favour to people like my self who rally love the softest parts of articulations. And maybe also that I don't care for the build in reverb. :). Thoughts?
 
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I understand you and @jbuhler have sunk costs, as do I!

Yeah, it's not really about sunk costs. I thought and listened very carefully before going down the new Studio road when the strings were released, and was just as careful about continuing with this one. I'm quite pleased with the library so far, and think I made the right decision.

You've offered your perspective on some things, I'm just offering my own as well.
 
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I think this might be the answer I was looking for - Horn 2 has more 'splat' in the attack - starting at ~ 5:32. So here's how you can get the full spat of the sampled attack, though I'm still trying to get a sense of how you can craft he dynamics after the attack. I took me a while to figure this out in some of the SSW instruments, and solo strings, but you really can shape the dynamics o great effect.

A pity horn 2 is only in the pro version. All the same, if you don't like the soft attack, it should possible to not use the horn with the soft attack.

 
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Rich - quite interested in your critique here, but may I respectfully suggest that lines like this:






might pay lip service to respecting a diversity of opinion, yet its very hard not to read his as an insult an anyone who might actually like the library. And, speaking as someone who really likes almost all of what I've hear of this library so far, it's kind of a vicious personal insult on our musical judgement if you think about, if perhaps an unintented one. I'm interested in your critique - but when I read a line like think I just get that sinking feeling because, well, this is the internet.


And then line like this:



Risks giving the impression that you're further attacking anyone disagreeing with you by suggesting that their moves aren't honest.

Which I mention, because I'm quite interested in the points your making and would really like to seem them substantively engaged (so it's really unfortunate the tone some of this is taking here).

A question though - I do hear that lack of a pronounced attack on the horn you point out - although I also quite like the soft attack in context. Is this the sort of library where you can craft the dynamics of the individual note with the mod wheel? Some library do this brilliant (including most spitfire libraries), buy many not so much. (I'm not really sure what's reasonably to expect from brass libraries - so apologies for my ignorance, the only dedicated full brass library I have is so terrible that Paul and Christian could sample a kazoo and it be over the moon at what an improvement it is (so long as it was in AIR) ). Very hard to tell from what I've seen what capacity we have for crafting the dynamics. You can do this to great effect with the new solo strings, so wondering if the same might be true for the brass?


Update - you do speak to this point to in that last post to some extent in the above - so thanks, that was helpful. So now I'd refine my question to I think much the same thing @jbuhler has been asking - can you get a better attack 'blooming' at higher values of cc1?

Because on its own, what I'd be most likely to conclude from you example that Spitfire probably intended the soft dyanamic to have a soft attack as a favour to people like my self who rally love the softest parts of articulations. And maybe also that I don't care for the build in reverb. :). Thoughts?

First off, I would very much like to ramp this down whilst anyone is taking this personally or feeling slighted. That's not the way I roll.

The 'robot army of shorts' was an admittedly snarky poke at the library's suitability to task, not aimed at its fans or their music. The 'sunk cost' comment was an explicit attempt to diffuse people feeling bad because they had already purchased. I did not state nor intend to state that anyone was suffering from 'sunk cost fallacy' and that's also why I included myself.

I'm now super aware that people are attaching themselves to the defense of this library and Spitfire, and having said my bit I'm happy to have others say theirs and stay out of it. I sincerely hate personal internet arguments. I'm still not sure how to give a head's up warning here on a new library without triggering this kind of thread, but have already acknowledged my editorializing didn't help. That said, concrete examples of potential trouble are something I'd really have appreciated more often before my own purchases, including this one.

I will thus answer your objective question then beg off. First, the ramping problem is by far the worst on the legato patches when there should be a legato transition, regardless of dynamic. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were to recognize something about this script is just busted because the legato transition seems to be MIA and we're only getting the crossfade of the next note. Legatos aside, across the articulations and dynamics, I just keep feeling like some envelope ramp is being superimposed over the natural blossoming of notes. It seems like the blossoming is under there, but loses out to the envelope. Does that make sense? I thought it might be to enable the 'tightness' slider, but that doesn't seem to do much of anything. The A/Bing with other libs wasn't to start a pissing match, just something I had set up to help me pinpoint what I was hearing. I do have VSL/Berlin/CH brass and in comparison (to the new CSB demos as well) it seems something is 'off'. I'd like nothing better than for Spitfire to discover it's just a wayward setting in the scripts.

At some point we reach the limits of talking about sound, but I'm not going to make a more extensive demo to demonstrate a negative point. I'm a fan of Spitfire and own a lot of their stuff. I wish everyone the best with the lib and their music.
 
I think this might be the answer I was looking for - Horn 2 has more 'splat' in the attack - starting at ~ 5:32. So here's how you can get he full spat of the sampled attack, though I'm still trying to get a sense of how you can craft he dynamics after the attack. I took me a while to figure this out in some of the SSW instruments, and solo strings, but you really can shape the dynamics o great effect.

A pity horn 2 is only in the pro version. All the same, if you don't like the soft attack, it should possible to not use the horn with the soft attack.


yes, it seems to me the longs in SF instruments are very much built with the idea that you will ride the modwheel to some extent and shape the sound appropriately. I think someone also said that the dynamic layers are fairly close together on the modwheel—or maybe that was CSB. It's all blurring together... But if that's the case, it might make the sound harder to control depending on how smooth the crossfades between layers are. That's another reason I'd like to see and hear more working demos of those with the library—to get a better idea of the mechanics of the library.
 
First, the ramping problem is by far the worst on the legato patches when there should be a legato transition, regardless of dynamic. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were to recognize something about this script is just busted because the legato transition seems to be MIA and we're only getting the crossfade of the next note. Legatos aside, across the articulations and dynamics, I just keep feeling like some envelope ramp is being superimposed over the natural blossoming of notes. It seems like the blossoming is under there, but loses out to the envelope. Does that make sense? I thought it might be to enable the 'tightness' slider, but that doesn't seem to do much of anything. The A/Bing with other libs wasn't to start a pissing match, just something I had set up to help me pinpoint what I was hearing. I do have VSL/Berlin/CH brass and in comparison (to the new CSB demos as well) it seems something is 'off'. I'd like nothing better than for Spitfire to discover it's just a wayward setting in the scripts.
This is a very helpful intervention and I understand your concerns much better now. Thanks for sharing them.
 
First off, I would very much like to ramp this down whilst anyone is taking this personally or feeling slighted. That's not the way I roll.

I will thus answer your objective question then beg off. First, the ramping problem is by far the worst on the legato patches when there should be a legato transition, regardless of dynamic. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were to recognize something about this script is just busted because the legato transition seems to be MIA and we're only getting the crossfade of the next note. Legatos aside, across the articulations and dynamics, I just keep feeling like some envelope ramp is being superimposed over the natural blossoming of notes. It seems like the blossoming is under there, but loses out to the envelope. **************************
At some point we reach the limits of talking about sound, but I'm not going to make a more extensive demo to demonstrate a negative point. I'm a fan of Spitfire and own a lot of their stuff. I wish everyone the best with the lib and their music.

I took your earlier posts to be valid and help set my expectations properly. Subsequent comment seemed to advise more tolerance on my part.
Becomes dang tough, as lifetime pianist /musician to sort many of these technical /orchestral issues.

This current post reinforces earlier concerns, and disappointment if you withdraw from further discussion of issues you feel notable.
 
I will thus answer your objective question then beg off. First, the ramping problem is by far the worst on the legato patches when there should be a legato transition, regardless of dynamic. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were to recognize something about this script is just busted because the legato transition seems to be MIA and we're only getting the crossfade of the next note. Legatos aside, across the articulations and dynamics, I just keep feeling like some envelope ramp is being superimposed over the natural blossoming of notes. It seems like the blossoming is under there, but loses out to the envelope. Does that make sense? I thought it might be to enable the 'tightness' slider, but that doesn't seem to do much of anything. The A/Bing with other libs wasn't to start a pissing match, just something I had set up to help me pinpoint what I was hearing. I do have VSL/Berlin/CH brass and in comparison (to the new CSB demos as well) it seems something is 'off'. I'd like nothing better than for Spitfire to discover it's just a wayward setting in the scripts.

At some point we reach the limits of talking about sound, but I'm not going to make a more extensive demo to demonstrate a negative point. I'm a fan of Spitfire and own a lot of their stuff. I wish everyone the best with the lib and their music.

Thanks - I'm starting from almost nothing in trying to get my head around what to listen for in a brass library, so this kind of analysis, combined with the spitfire demos (which I do find generally to be reliably helpful) is really very helpful.

(And the notion of 'the splat' is my favourite new concept of the day. Although, in fairness, the only other new concepts the day has proved as competition have all involved some crazily abstract algebra, so it wasn't all that competitive).
 
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I should say that I might just be coming from an ideology that doesn't necessarily line up with some people's, which is best summed up as, "things are good enough."

Most of us would choose real players over the best sample library if given the choice. I'm no different. But I probably take it further than many others, in that I don't *ever* expect to be more than *just barely* satisfied by virtual instruments. Maybe that's the result of being forced to work with crappy tools for so long, or spending so much time around the real thing. I don't expect perfection or anything remotely near it from this stuff. I don't mind something dodgy here and there, as long as it doesn't cause the music itself to totally collapse.

In 2018, if you spend smartly and don't cheap out, that doesn't seem to happen anymore. I think you can do something great with almost any reputable VI out there, if only you give it something great to do. I think we're well past the days of samples fundamentally undermining musicality in any significant way. Over the last few years, I don't think I've heard more than one or two serious critiques of a new library that weren't by my standards almost completely irrelevant.

Now, that's fine, as there's nothing wrong with pushing developers to do better. And I'm thrilled with each new leap forward, each bug fix, etc. But if it doesn't stop me from making music, I guess I just don't really care much, and it's been a long time since I've run into something that stopped me from making music (ok, at least as far as samples are concerned).

I don't own five or ten different brass libraries, and no matter how much cash I may have in my pocket, I never will. It's not my way of doing things, for better or worse. After several disappointments over the years which were resold or deleted, this is now the only dedicated brass library that lives on my hard drive, and I think it will stay that way for some time. It has its issues, but ultimately its value will be determined by what I do with it, not by those issues.

Anyway... if you agree with all that nonsense, and like the sound of it, then yes, this may be the library for you! ;)
 
but all I hear are three different tones
I agree with what you are saying. VSL always had the best legatos. I personally used to own a chunk of stuff from them. But, the legatos is what I care the least. It's the TONE what's important.... I remember loving having all those super articulations on the VSL solo strings. But, how, oh god, how difficult it was to change the tone of those strings. I got tired of been most of the time tweaking EQ levels, and never got the sound that I wanted.

The sound in that example is lifeless and flat. And in the previous one also sounds flat. Specially if you compare a relatively dry library like Hollywood brass. It simply sounds good even though is relatively dry.

One thing I've learned, is not to get too hipped by the demos of someone like Andy Blaney. This guy is so good at doing this. He will make a table sound like a violin. I know, that I will never be able to get something of that quality, so, I rather pick something that simply sounds good out of the box. I know I will sound like one of the boxes, but, that's me.
 
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A pity horn 2 is only in the pro version. All the same, if you don't like the soft attack, it should possible to not use the horn with the soft attack.
I'm looking at this primarily for the extra instruments that are offered only in the pro and what it might offer as an extension of SSB. There's definitely some stuff—more here, I think than SStS had to offer as extensions/supplements to SCS and SSyS. And I continue to think this is a terrific deal. But the need is not especially pressing, and I want the Whitacre Choir a lot more.
 
Quick question. If I buy the regular version now at 149$, I should pay 250$ to get the Pro version after the intro price is over. Am I right?
 
Any small user Studio Brass demos? Preferably in a classic orchestral setting with hall sound.

I have gone back and forth and can't really make up my mind. It's very inexpensive, even for the pro version, and some of the stuff I heard I liked.
 
One of the things which bothers me is the truncation of release samples in the walkthroughs which somewhat detracts from the realism - this is something which drives me nuts with the Hollywood series. If you hear the short phrase Paul plays with the Bass Trombone Solo in the Pro walkthrough, at 3:03 you need to hear the room tone as the phrase ends but it just stops dead. This is despite the CC1 being somewhere close to 50% as Paul lets go of the key. In isolation, this would be a problem without added reverb. I really want to like this!
 
After playing with the library some more, I can confirm (atleast in the "core" edition) that yes, the Legato patches do tend to have issues. Not much of the other patches do. Also, it is only some of the instruments, at some of their dynamic levels, in which the legato patches suffer. Turning up the reverb slider will help considerably, but occasionally there are actually missing samples for the transitions, and it cannot help with that.

I think a solid update would be likely to fix most of the issues, and maybe those missing samples are just a bug and it could fix them as well.
 
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