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Spitfire Studio Brass

sostenuto said:
Yep ! …. and both Threads have truly 'soured' me going forward; as well as errant spray on planned SF libs as well.
Quick to add …. my scoring /orch weaknesses make me especially vulnerable to critiques by apparent, capable users.
This Thread has thrown a huge shade on planned Wishlist activity. Hopefully more clarifications will help sort this.
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Just to be clear: I didn’t find that example exposed any weakness in the library. It did not give reason to buy the library but it also gave no reason not to buy it. And for my money CH’s contextual video was far more informative. What I’d like is someone who isn’t CH to do a good contextual video so I had a better sense of its capabilities and limitations.
 
sostenuto said:
Yep ! …. and both Threads have truly 'soured' me going forward; as well as errant spray on planned SF libs as well.
Quick to add …. my scoring /orch weaknesses make me especially vulnerable to critiques by apparent, capable users.
This Thread has thrown a huge shade on planned Wishlist activity. Hopefully more clarifications will help sort this.
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I think that sort of thinking will only muddy the waters, tbh.
Maybe look at it like this:
  1. Every library has limitations and annoyances.
  2. No library will be "the one" that you'll want to stick with forever. There's always a bigger/newer fish.
  3. It's easier to find criticism online than praise, and those who are displeased are more vocal.
  4. Everyone is an "expert" online. Not all opinions count. ;)
I like music said:
On the other hand, I'm assuming that they know their economics (and that there's probably a ton of customers who don't visit these forums, so it maybe doesn't affect them all that much) and also, some probably feel that they can't really positively affect the outcome/direction of said threads.
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Yep. Judging by the communities on social media, youtube etc - I think VI control is small potatoes now to Spitfire. Also, history has shown these sort of threads degenerate eventually and never resolve.
 
richhickey said:
No offense taken, Alex. Certainly, a little demo like mine is but an anecdote. So, correct, you can't extrapolate from it. On the other hand, it is a bit of evidence, which can be looked at in and of itself only, but then, I think, objectively.

Does a tiny demo inherently represent a whole library? No, it's just my assertion that the demo is indicative of what I found throughout. Need you trust me? Of course not. Drop $299 and find out for yourself :) These things matter to me, they may not to you, many aspects remain subjective etc. That's what the YMMV is about.
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If I may be so bold, even in the universally adored Andy Blaney's piece, the intro sounds almost "stitched" together. One can clearly hear the articulations being used and the difficulty in creating a flowing phrase. And no, I could not do better, and that is exactly the point.

@richhickey - Thanks for posting. Your example glorified my fear about the possible incoherence between articulations. Obviously, it can sound great, but if you're on deadlines, great has to happen almost instantly. For that, it would seem to me that CSB might be a better fit for me.
 
Soprano_Sundays said:
I wish Spitfire would develop some better legato / transition samples. A lot of the defining characteristics of an instrument come from the first attack / transient of the instrument. Which is why when you listen to the short articulations of libraries they sound more realistic than the longs / legatos. (Something to bear in mind if watching a new library demo, if they start with the shorts)
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I’m definitely in the camp of those who think legato is overrated and writing idiomatically far more important. I notice it more when it’s present (in a bad way) than when it’s lacking. And the problem with that Firebird solo wasn’t the legato...
 
jbuhler said:
I’m definitely in the camp of those who think legato is overrated and writing idiomatically far more important. I notice it more when it’s present (in a bad way) than when it’s lacking. And the problem with that Firebird solo wasn’t the legato...
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Thats fair enough and it completely depends on what writing you are doing. But as I said before the most defining characteristic of an instrument (what makes it identifiable) is the beginning of the note. If you are blurring instruments together this isn't as much of an issue but if you are writing for exposed legato strings you need to hear transitions.
 
Alex Fraser said:
I think that sort of thinking will only muddy the waters, tbh.
**************
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All true and taken as intended. :thumbsup:

Dunno why these several SFA_Studio Strings /Brass critiques have had particular impact ….. but they have. 'Limitations and annoyances' are one thing, but these seemed more objective, technical, demonstrable than many.

Always open to solid advice and moving forward.
 
Soprano_Sundays said:
I wish Spitfire would develop some better legato / transition samples. All of the demos that I've heard of this library demonstrate a weakness in realistic transitions including the ones on Spitfire's soundcloud page. A lot of the defining characteristics of an instrument come from the first attack / transient of the instrument. Which is why when you listen to the short articulations of libraries they sound more realistic than the longs / legatos. (Something to bear in mind if watching a new library demo, if they start with the shorts)

I was listening to the Joshua Bell Virtual Violin which seems to be at the forefront of realistic sounding sample instruments. Has anyone else got suggestions of any other instruments that follow this kind of programming for Brass? Or is it too difficult yet?
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JB is indeed spectacular - and has 13 types of legato, and is $200 for 1 mic on 1 instrument (though part of it's brilliance at the cost of a design decision to have no dynamic cross fade).

Extrapolating (in wildly hand waving manor) to this library - it has 17 instruments, which at JB levels of sampling would come out to $3400 + lets say a factor of 50% for the extra mics, then rounding down a little because probably brass is a little easier to sample, and we're at say $4500. Also, two years of development per instrument, we're probably looking at another 34 years of development, so preorder now to get it in ... ok the extrapolation does get a bit silly at some point.

I'd be very interested myself to know more about how far away state of the art solo strings sampling is from brass - so sorry I can't be helpful with your actual question.

But just though I'd foreground the apples to oranges endemic to any comparison. :)
 
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Alex Fraser said:
Also, history has shown these sort of threads degenerate eventually and never resolve.
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I don't believe it was always thus. Most thread on new instruments tend to be quite useful. Then something changed.

Even the recent EWC thread was a genuinely useful thread. Lots of honest praise, lots of honest critique, all of it was interesting and valuable. Not everyone decided it was the library for them, but everyone seemed to go home happy. (It was kind of unnerving actually.)
 
Consona said:
Thx. Could you, if you have some spare time, post that Indy demo again, but with Time Machine treatment and Tree 1 mics only? Wondering whether the normal version would be enough sound-wise and how well the stretching works.
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I also noticed I had several places out of rhythm.Shame on myself......
I put Tree1 Only, Close1 Only, and a default mix with a few fixation on the midi sequence.
jamwerks said:
Which mic's did you have up
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Mic setup : C1+T1 for Trumpet Solo 1, T1 for Trumpets a2.
I barely know things about mixing, so I tried the default reverb.
Tree1 Only:
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_jonestheme_tmshort_tree_fxbypass-mp3.17203/][/AUDIOPLUS]
Close1 Only:
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_jonestheme_tmshort_close_fxbypass-mp3.17204/][/AUDIOPLUS]
FL default reverb:
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_jonestheme_tmshort_defaultrevmix-mp3.17207/][/AUDIOPLUS]
Extented, throne room (doubled with Horn a4 in the repeat)
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_forcetheme_ext-mp3.17208/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

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ism said:
JB is indeed spectacular - and has 13 types of legato, and is $200 for 1 mic on 1 instrument (though part of it's brilliance at the cost of a design decision to have no dynamic cross fade).

Extrapolating (in wildly hand waving manor) to this library - it has 17 instruments, which at JB levels of sampling would come out to $3400 + lets say a factor of 50% for the extra mics, then rounding down a little because probably brass is a little easier to sample, and we're at say $4500. Also, two years of development per instrument, we're probably looking at another 34 years of development, so preorder now to get it in ... ok the extrapolation does get a bit silly at some point.

I'd be very interested myself to know more about how far away state of the art solo strings sampling is from brass - so sorry I can't be helpful with your actual question.

But just though I'd foreground the apples to oranges endemic to any comparison. :)
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No sure and I think String sampling is ahead of brass at the moment. I have some Spitfire libraries and some of the articulations are fantastic (Chamber Strings - Flautando / Shorts). But I also have Cinematic Studio Solo Strings and Cinematic Studio Strings and legato is far more convincing although the lack of vibrato control is a little frustrating.

I guess different developers place different values on different aspects. Spitfire seems to concentrate on having a large number of articulations and mic positions. Where I guess I would prefer the one to three mic approach with more attention to transitions.
 
jamwerks said:
If I remember correctly from Paul's walk-through, the "Tree 2" mic's seemed to have less room.
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Made a Tree2 only, does sound even drier than tree1.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_jonestheme_tmshort_tree2_fxbypass-mp3.17210/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

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miket said:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jgra6mi1kbezh9/fbhorn.wav?dl=0

It holds up ok to me, in context. Not perfect, but no VI is, and given that the New York Philharmonic isn't sitting in front of me waiting to play what I write, I'll take not perfect.
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Thanks for posting. I understand you and @jbuhler have sunk costs, as do I! And I am not trying to make you feel bad about your purchase. But, legatos aside, objectively, your sample demonstrates exactly what I was talking about. The notes ramp in, more like you would do with a synth to emulate brass, both fading in the attack and opening a filter.

But these are samples. They should capture and reproduce the wonderful blossoming of a brass note and they don't. Most of the character of brass is in this moment.

I sincerely hope that they've recorded this and it's something they could expose via revised editing/trimming. The shorts are better in this regard but still exhibit some bizarre onset truncation. I don't understand what has happened here, as it doesn't seem like an artistic or even a performance/latency decision.
 
richhickey said:
Thanks for posting. I understand you and @jbuhler have sunk costs, as do I! And I am not trying to make you feel bad about your purchase. But, legatos aside, objectively, your sample demonstrates exactly what I was talking about. The notes ramp in, more like you would do with a synth to emulate brass, both fading in the attack and opening a filter.
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I have no sunk costs, as I've not yet purchased. Nice diversion of the conversation. You've yet to demonstrate anything other than that the horn 1 solo patch at that modwheel setting doesn't render the solo well in isolation. But whatever.
 
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