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Muzzle on Daniel James?

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robgb said:
Sorry, I get the sentiment of your post, but who decides who a "nobody" is? No one here is a nobody.
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False. I am.

alexd said:
Is Hans Zimmer strings not Hans Zimmers strings? I do not understand?
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All you need to know is that it's a product made by Spitfire audio with Hans' name attached to it. Daniel James made a first-impression video that went on for hours and was largely negative.

Many shenanigans ensued, including Zimmer himself $#%*ing on Daniel. Various people went on to make 5+hour-long video rants and it seems the forum is unable to just move on.

The internet brings out the worst in all of us, and as is so often the case, it all got blown out of proportion, butts got hurt, and professionals many look up to may or may not have made fools of themselves.
 
Daniel James said:
....
So you know what. Fuck everything about this whole situation. I can't take it anymore.

And I am sure this 'conversation' you had with Spitfire was completely objective and unbiased right? And it also disturbs me that after that 'chat' with Spitfire I then receive a message saying I can no longer talk about them.

Its disgusting to me that knowing the things I told you, you still framed that post that way.
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Daniel, I consider what you offered in your many reviews of new sample products over the years to be factual, very informative, and focusing on the strengths, and more importantly, the weaknesses of the products. Bashing, I did not see. Yes, there was, as I said some 'focusing' on weaknesses, but for good reasons, and for these reasons many people value your reviews, as do I, because this information is hard to come by, and direly needed when making purchasing decisions. Interestingly, without your Hans Zimmer Strings review some people here said they probably would not have purchased the library.

I would go so far to say that your factual presentations of new products is very close to what I consider the objective truth, the 'holy' truth ;) And for that, your reviews are for me the pearls among reviews, and I especially enjoyed the HZS review, however, not the bashing on you after it, and some big names, that I otherwise admire a lot, should be massively ashamed for the behaviour they showed. What did Jesus have to say about holy (truth) and pearls (of wisdom)?:
  • A quotation from Matthew 7:6 in Jesus's Sermon on the Mount: "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."
In my mind you are solidly in the caster and giver group Jesus talks about, and the others who so shamefully tried to trample and tear you in the other group.

Daniel, please keep up the good work, even if your information or presentation might be perceived as toxic by the few with monetary interests in these new products, because, the people who matter don't mind, and the people who mind don't matter!

And Mike, please stop the censoring, noting good will come of it.
 
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Daniel, we have not forumised (!) before, but in all honesty fwiw, if your side of events was honest and true to you and had the right motives then bollocks to everyone else. I say the same to you Mike (Greene) too for that matter, it is just unfortunate that life does not always tally up equitably between us. If Trump and that guy with the funny hairstyle can do what they've done this morning.......beers and jokes about viola players all round.
 
I have deep respect for MGs attempt to dealing with all this, and also for DJs passion for what he does.
Forums simply aren't suitable for deling with negativity, personal attacks or anything which reminds of that. A forum like this needs very clear rules re. what's allowed and not (not in terms of opinions of course, but in terms of how they are presented and anything which looks like repetetive negative bias. But DH isn't banned: "I clarified to Daniel that if he does a YouTube video review of a Spitfire product (as opposed to Spitfire drama), he CAN post a thread here linking to it, even if the review is negative. He can also speak positively about Spitfire if he likes. He’s not “banned.” "
And DJ shares that this now has turned into more than he can handle. That's a statement which deserves attention and deep respect, even from people who may say that DJ is responsible for how this has developed.

From what I can see, the conflict is over.

My humble suggestion is that instead of mods/admins discussing all cases in PMs and threads, the forum needs very clear rules about avoid everything which appears as personal attacks or repetetive company attacks. When I was an admin, I had to tell the forum users that I simply can't spend so much time moderating individual conflicts/cases, and that they just had to read the rules again and stay away from discussing persons instead of opinions, always be polite (more than they would be in real life), and stay away from anything repetetive.

And people with "strong opinions" have to be very careful about not going on about the same things, using lots of threads/posts/videos/examples to demonstrate that they are right - even if they are. I'm not saying that DJ is doing this (nothing against DJ, and there are too many words and too long YT-clips for ne to personally have time to check that out anyway), my point is only that we need to show more respect and be more polite here than in real life. Things are often misunderstood and overreacted upon when we don't have people in front of us.

So, IMHO: time to move on, because...
war is over.png
 
leon chevalier said:
To all my dear VIC fellows :

If you feel that your are trap in an endless debate but feel the need to remake your point for the hundredth time... Help yourself and click that emergency Button:

>>> Here <<<

That might help you.

Love to everyone,

Leon
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Mabe for the language used in these threads - another fitting emergency button. Looks the same, reads different.

>>> For more Emotion <<<

:2thumbs:
 
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I've been here for a short time (compared to many others), and don't participate that much although I read the forum constantly. All the drama that happened before Mike taking the forum (remember that?) and afterwards from time to time is, honestly and from my humble point of view, absolutely useless and can only lead to 'bad taste in the mouth' (does this expression even exists in English?). This kind of drama is not what this forum is all about, fortunately all the drama is contained in a few threads / topics or people -and although noticeable, it's not spread all over the place.

I know all of us love this little corner of the internet were we can get in contact with people that share our passion, but really, it IS an online forum. It's not a life-or-death thing. I'm sure we can all be mature enough to take a little perspective, be kind and educated in our writings, and just be able to let things go. Anyone that participated on other forums or just navigated thru the internet for a while can quickly identify the trolls or soon-to-be-trolls. Just don't feed them and don't imitate their practices when dealing with them or normal people, which is part of the reason of some of the drama happening (have always the last word, debate endlessly thru a million pages where all POVs have been clearly stated, call names, get into personal issues, you know the deal...). In a forum you need to be 10 times more polite than in person, and getting repetitive is soooo close to trolling. Just remembering this would spare us a lot of the bad moments in the forum.

I for one appreciate the transparency of both Mike and Daniel here. I fully understand that there are moments when you have to force people to let go, actually so Mike can let this b*llshit go too. And @Daniel, I enjoy your videos and value your opinions very much in this forum, my little and probably stupid advice to you is: just don't take it so seriously. It is a great forum, but once again, it is an online forum, it's not worth to have serious shit or issues about it - actually it shouldn't have that kind of effect on anyone.

Can we all kumbaya together now? :)
 
I'm not even involved in this personally and it still bothers me immensely.
We're far beyond the point of "just lighten up" here, the damage is done.
I can only hope Spitfire, Hans and Daniel hug it out at some point in the future.
 
rottoy said:
So industry giants undermining someone's character shouldn't be taken seriously, because this is an online forum?
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That's not what I said, probably expressed myself wrong (not native English speaker here): no one should take an online forum so seriously to the point of getting involved in a endless discussion that could lead to anyone undermining his or her character. Do you think if that thread have had 2 pages instead of 200 it would have gone that far? I don't think so, but that's just my opinion, of course. But anyway, soon as that thread went south I just moved away, so I'm not aware of the details - and I don't want to know and open again the can of worms.

Maybe the damage is done, but there's not a single individual to blame. A bit more understanding and politeness from everyone would have prevented that. Plus, that industry giant is also just a person, so it is wrong if he undermined someone's character, but same as is wrong that someone undermined his character, isn't it? Should anything be taken more or less seriously if it's coming from an industry giant instead of someone else? Again, I don't think so. Maybe it's just me.
All this bother me too, but for different reasons I guess. It bothers me because it could have been easily avoided in the first place and it ended up making some people -like Daniel and probably Mike and even maybe Hans or Paul and Christian- feel bad and in general making this forum worse.
 
The guy, Daniel James, is talking about killing himself, because he is feeling he got harassed (or profoundly questionned in his personailty) by memebrs of this forum. Just a line to say, this should be taken seriously and an invitation to be a bit more caring when dealing with each others.
 
This all speaks of a wider issue about this forum.

To be clear: I really like this place. I've got great advice from all sorts of kind folks, including buying advice direct from composer giants. That sort of stuff is priceless.

But.

The worst habit that (some of) the VI control community has, is taking an issue that doesn't matter in real life and blowing it up out of all proportion. A flashing ad banner is easily dealt with a two finger swipe on the touchpad. A dodgy legato transition is dealt with by a tut, some quick CC editing or another musical approach. Yet frequently these things erupt into multi-page dust-ups.

It's the sort of argument that only matters at 2am with an open browser window but because there's no face to face discussion, it simmers in our brains. We take the most negative angle we can from it and off we go onto page 18 of the fight.

I don't know what the answer is. I don't think it will even change. Maybe a bit more self awareness would be nice.
 
Alex Fraser said:
This all speaks of a wider issue about this forum.

To be clear: I really like this place. I've got great advice from all sorts of kind folks, including buying advice direct from composer giants. That sort of stuff is priceless.

But.

The worst habit that (some of) the VI control community has, is taking an issue that doesn't matter in real life and blowing it up out of all proportion. A flashing ad banner is easily dealt with a two finger swipe on the touchpad. A dodgy legato transition is dealt with by a tut, some quick CC editing or another musical approach. Yet frequently these things erupt into multi-page dust-ups.

It's the sort of argument that only matters at 2am with an open browser window but because there's no face to face discussion, it simmers in our brains. We take the most negative angle we can from it and off we go onto page 18 of the fight.

I don't know what the answer is. I don't think it will even change. Maybe a bit more self awareness would be nice.
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I can assure you, based on my membership of another internet forum related to my football club of choice, VI Control is no different to anywhere else in these respects!

Regarding two fingered swipes, I think Christian dealt with that one in his recent vlog. ;)
 
Yeah, I've seen bitchiness in pretty much every music forum I've belonged to.

Invariably it always seems to orbit around 'people feeling a company or companies are ripping them off in some way' verses 'people defending said company'.

I used to hang out on the Maschine forum and before that dogs on Acid and it was the same in those forums too.
 
My only problem with Daniel's approach, and because I worked for EW I was too harsh in expressing it, is that he approaches all new libraries in an "instant gratification" way, open it up, play it and see what happens. And they are not all designed for that,. Some require substantial knowledge and time to use them well. So I think that actually performs a disservice to the community at times, but I know that others disagree and I have come to respect that.

I will only make the comparison that I can easily sit down and sight read Satie and the music will sound lovely. I cannot sit down and instantly sight read Ravel but that does not make the music any less lovely when mastered, it just takes a lot more work.

But I no longer have any personal animus to Daniel and stay or go, I wish him the best.
 
Ashermusic said:
My only problem with Daniel's approach, and because I worked for EW I was too harsh in expressing it, is that he approaches all new libraries in an "instant gratification" way, open it up, play it and see what happens. And they are not all designed for that,. Some require substantial knowledge and time to use them well. So I think that actually performs a disservice to the community at times, but I know that others disagree and I have come to respect that.
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Not sure how many more times he has to say it wasn't a review, it was a "first look" video.
 
Ashermusic said:
he approaches all new libraries in an "instant gratification" way, open it up, play it and see what happens.
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Soooo is that a bad thing? Nearly every developer's walk through videos (EW included) consist of, load a patch, press a key, write music. I mean EW's engine is called PLAY for Pete's sake, what does a guy have to do? If i shell out $600 for something you're damn right i wanna be instantly gratified with it!

to say Daniel in any way performs a disservice to the community is bullocks because he demands nothing from the community, save for respect that he's a human being! And to compare anything that Spitfire or any developer puts on the shelf to sight reading Ravel is ridiculous!

P.S. i also respect your opinions Jay and in no way am i trying to be a douche
 
mouse said:
Not sure how many more times he has to say it wasn't a review, it was a "first look" video.
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I understand, I just question the validity of "first look" videos with complex products that have a learning curve. And John, if it deters people from the product it doesn't matter whether it demands anything from the community. If you disagree with that, fine, but I stand by my opinions that without knowledge of the library's design, it frequently does more harm than good. And my analogy is apt IMHO. There are things of value in any endeavor that can be mastered quickly and there are ones that take more time and work.

And now I will bow out as I have no need to have the last word.
 
Sadly, everybody with a little success and achievements in his/her life seems to get bs like this:


Imo: you don't have to like everybody, but at least respect them for whom they are and what they've done (doesn't mean that critisims or discussions aren't allowed, but not personal insults...).
 
We're with you Daniel. Cheers.

Personally, I'd rather have more forum members like Daniel on here than Devs because I believe he actually does more for fellow musicians by letting us know which libraries and sounds are actually worth our interest and hard earned money. Library developers will mostly keep producing libraries anyway. People like Daniel, who do this for free, don't have to keep at it.

If a Dev would like to be a part of the conversation first hand and really take in the feedback of users and people generally interested in their libraries, they should consider this is a privilege - and this shouldn't be something we need to work for...
 
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