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Muzzle on Daniel James?

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Mike Greene

Senior Member
Moderator
Genuine question... Are there any moderators on this forum anymore?

The only person I see doing any moderation these days is Mike, and while I appreciate the job he has done thus far, being the "Dorm RA" shouldn't fall under the responsibility of an admin of a website this large. That is a moderators job. An administrators job on a site this size should be mostly just that... administration. Mostly behind the scenes business.

Just to be clear, I am not criticizing the job Mike has done so far. I just think he needs some help. So much of the drama that occurs on this forum could be avoided with proper moderation, just as every other forum on the internet has done. This forum is no longer some small community of professional composers. It is a decent sized community full of various opinions, experiences, personalities, and cultures. Because of this, some conflict is inevitable, but small disputes don't need to be left to fester and turn into month long rivalries. Moderation can help with that.

Obviously I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, so I don't know whether mod candidates have been contacted or whether there had ever been candidates to begin with. However, in my opinion, proper moderation and mod structure is needed not just for the benefit of the forum, but for Mike's sanity as well.
There are two other moderators (Nick Batzdorf and Craig Sharmat), who help out, although for the most part, the forum self-moderates. On most reported posts, for instance, we'll decide (or rather, one of us will decide) "This will work itself out on its own. No need for us to step in" and 9 times out 10, that's exactly what happens. It's a very mature and sophisticated membership here.

There's very little day to day moderating necessary, so the three of us are probably enough. I might add more at some point, but that's been tricky in the past, because the temptation to step in quickly is often the wrong move (classic rookie mistake), and we'll then get the inevitable "How come Xxx's post got deleted?!?!?" thread with ensuing drama. It's a nightmare when that happens. That happened the very first week I took over this forum, in fact, and I had to clean up the mess, which took days. The person who deleted the thread is no longer a mod here and I actually believe we have less work now with just Nick, Craig and me handling things.

My problem isn't the day to stuff, it's the bigger dramas like this one. These are situations where there is no decision that everyone will agree is the "right" decision, so it has to be me who takes responsibility for these. Add to the mix the fact that Daniel (or Mike Verta or Samy, from two other recent dramas) have very large followings, and things get way messier. There's not much that Craig or Nick could do to help out with that.

There's also been a lot of behind the scenes politics to deal with this last couple months where I have to navigate around people's egos and feelings.

On the bright side, the first nine months were pretty easy, so I think this last two months is just an anomaly.

With all that said, I do think you're right that I should get more help, though. I'm still deciding/experimenting for myself exactly how the forum should be run and what the actual "rules" should be, so until I get that squared away, we're runnin' lean and mean. ;)
 

gamma-ut

Active Member
Sadly, everybody with a little success and achievements in his/her life seems to get bs like this:
The trouble is in an online population of millions you wind up with a high probability of one or two low-effort trolls ruining your day...unless you take the approach of no tolerance to abuse - report and move on (and block if you want to). If someone has a serious point to make, then that's one thing. Low and common abuse, get rid of it or in this case tell YouTube to get rid of it.
 

John Busby

Musician/Composer
users are too lazy to take time to read the manual, have a properly spec'd machine, and actually learn how to use the VI.
i guess i'm lazy then when i loaded up HW woods and most of what i heard were dull lifeless shrills. maybe i should have read the manual more?
 

rJames

Senior Member
It's a very mature and sophisticated membership here.

I'm still deciding/experimenting for myself exactly how the forum should be run and what the actual "rules" should be, so until I get that squared away, we're runnin' lean and mean. ;)
BTW anyone here know what a "Wisdom Warrior," is? Or is that handled in a different post?
 

kitekrazy

Senior Member
I can assure you, based on my membership of another internet forum related to my football club of choice, VI Control is no different to anywhere else in these respects!

Regarding two fingered swipes, I think Christian dealt with that one in his recent vlog. ;)
Funny thing about sports forums is when a team is doing bad members like to attack each other.
 

kitekrazy

Senior Member
My only problem with Daniel's approach, and because I worked for EW I was too harsh in expressing it, is that he approaches all new libraries in an "instant gratification" way, open it up, play it and see what happens. And they are not all designed for that,. Some require substantial knowledge and time to use them well. So I think that actually performs a disservice to the community at times, but I know that others disagree and I have come to respect that.

I will only make the comparison that I can easily sit down and sight read Satie and the music will sound lovely. I cannot sit down and instantly sight read Ravel but that does not make the music any less lovely when mastered, it just takes a lot more work.

But I no longer have any personal animus to Daniel and stay or go, I wish him the best.
Unfortunately that is also a marketing gimmick.
 

Mike Greene

Senior Member
Moderator
BTW anyone here know what a "Wisdom Warrior," is? Or is that handled in a different post?
Is that from the Facebook page? If so, then yeah, that's been a reeeeally tricky one for me to figure out what to do. Still not sure how to handle it.
 

rJames

Senior Member
Is that from the Facebook page? If so, then yeah, that's been a reeeeally tricky one for me to figure out what to do. Still not sure how to handle it.
No. That's just me throwing a wrench into the works... wondering about our friend. Sorry to take your time especially after reading in this thread how much of it you spend here. Maybe another moderator can handle it for you. Craig?
 

kitekrazy

Senior Member
If anyone ever thinks of going into development you should develop a thick skin. Sometimes that is the only way to turn enemies into friends. (sometimes)
 

lokotus

Member
I understand, I just question the validity of "first look" videos with complex products that have a learning curve. And John, if it deters people from the product it doesn't matter whether it demands anything from the community. If you disagree with that, fine, but I stand by my opinions that without knowledge of the library's design, it frequently does more harm than good. And my analogy is apt IMHO. There are things of value in any endeavor that can be mastered quickly and there are ones that take more time and work.

And now I will bow out as I have no need to have the last word.
I remember being banned from ew forum when gathering up points of concern about the older version of the play engine vs kontakt.
Call it what you want in this case: first look, review. Were are not hackers stealing software, doing illegal things etc.
We (in this case Daniel) just talk with our own "professional" opinion about products etc... Sometimes (too) emotional, sometimes not.
Nevertheless, users critique can and should be answered by the developer / seller. But to just ban people out of forums (or certain topics) is just nuts, if there was no obvious intention of doing harm (like hackers) to a product line / company but just writing down or doing some movie clips with an opinion about a product. Hope it makes sense.

Cheers, lokotus
 

MrLinssi

A glorified bedroom musician.
I really like this forum and I've avoided these threads mostly because I've had nothing constructive to say. But I say this, @Daniel James: I don't pretend to know what you're going through in your life at the moment and frankly, it's none of my, or anyone else's business. But if you're in a bad place, please talk to people who support you and care about you. Cheers!
 
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alexd

New Member
So he was angry at Spitfire Audio that it was not the real Hans Zimmer Strings, was that it? Sorry!! just trying to understand here!!
 

rottoy

Plebeian
So he was angry at Spitfire Audio that it was not the real Hans Zimmer Strings, was that it? Sorry!! just trying to understand here!!
That's basically the gist of the feather that turned into a monstruous chicken.
He wasn't even angry, just a bit disappointed.
 

fretti

Senior Member
So he was angry at Spitfire Audio that it was not the real Hans Zimmer Strings, was that it? Sorry!! just trying to understand here!!
Not angry, but he expressed his opinion (speaking for many others probably) that it was not what you would expect by the name Hans Zimmer Strings + a lot of other things (pro and con). But that was mostly what led to the thing of people questioning him and his integrity as a reviewer, wich then led to ~140 pages on this forum of discussion.
Don't want to start this whole thing here again though...if you have enough time I suggest watching the 2 videos on twitch/YT (~8:30h) and reading the threads about the topics on this forum:)
 

MatFluor

Senior Member
So he was angry at Spitfire Audio that it was not the real Hans Zimmer Strings, was that it? Sorry!! just trying to understand here!!
In very short words about the HZS thing:
- It was a long "first look video", like downloaded, opened, let's go
- He voiced that he expects Hans Zimmer Strings to sound different then what they did. Meaning "Grand, Epic, Big" but they are "Delicate, wide, deep" (my wording)
- Disappointment because of the obvious ambiguity of what "Hans Zimmer Strings" should be. Some people think "Pirates of the Carribean" - and the strings are not geard explicitly in that direction
- He pointed out errors, and due to the nature of the first look video, he explored them in detail.

After that, in the respective Forum thread here, things got out of hand for various reasons.

@Daniel James as a swiss military specialist officer for the psychological service - if you experience such phases, as many people already said, seek professional help. No shame in that at all. I won't say again what other said here, so yeah. Get well buddy.
 

Lex

Senior Member
I still honestly can't understand why one semi-happy customer and their private yt video ended up as such big deal for Spitfire?
 

Mike Greene

Senior Member
Moderator
Ugh. Someone is going to read this section of the thread and start thinking, "Wait, so Daniel got banned because he posted a couple negative videos about Spitfire?" (I've been on forums long enough so I can guarantee there is at least one person who has come to that conclusion.)

Just so we're all on the same page, Daniel's two videos were fine. And it's still fine if he posts similar videos again. The videos, positive or negative, were not the problem. I need to be really clear about that: The videos were not the problem. I need to make that clear because some people (robgb, for instance) seem to have this idea that critical comments or reviews are no longer allowed. That's completely incorrect.

The problem was not the videos. The problem was the endless fighting with people afterwards. Post after post after post after post. The topic for Daniel's fighting was always Spitfire, eventually devolving into what gave me the impression that Spitfire was becoming his mission. I admit I could be wrong, but when it go the point where he got into a heated debate about how Labs amounts to illegal predatory business practices, I felt this was indicative of a deeper problem and not good for the forum. I honestly don't see how anyone could feel I should have let that keep going.

In any event, I'll clarify one more time: Product criticism = fine. Endless arguing = not fine.
 

Luke W

Active Member
I think Mike has every right to decide the spirit of the forum he'd like to run, then moderate as needed to maintain that spirit. If some feel stifled, they'll go elsewhere. Plenty of places to argue on the internet. Sounds like he doesn't want discussions to devolve into endless bickering or personal attacks, but still wants to encourage open, critical discussions of sample libraries. Tough balance to maintain, as critical discussions easily catch fire with "No, YOU'RE stupid!" I'm personally all for Mike yanking posts and telling people to knock it off. If a thread becomes a twenty page dumpster fire, close the comments down. If he gets heavy handed and only protects advertisers or kills valuable discussions (which he has the right to do so if he chooses) then I'd probably stop logging on. But his comments thus far lead me to think he's seeking to create a community moderated in a way I personally find inviting.
 
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