Who uses Protools nowadays and do I need to to get it!

[Guy Rowland]

The limit in PT Studio is (I think) 128 aux channels, which could easily be eaten up by vep returns and fx channels, etc.

One other thing to be aware of is that there's only 1024 midi tracks, which would constrain many heavy template users. Unbelievably, this is the same limit for Ultimate users. WHY? Ridiculous.

My feeling is for this reason alone PT isn't really a contender for many VI composers in any version. I tend to compose in Cubase and mix in PT.

 

[artomatic]

There's pretty much zero reason for any music user to use Ultimate now. The main feature anyone might miss that isn't a strictly post-production workflow is a single video track.

Ultimate perpetual is now $500pa to stay current vs $200 for Studio. Anyone using PT purely for sending mastering files can probably get away with the free Intro.

I considered PT Studio but it would render my HDX interface useless. I do not want to spend money for another interface that will work with Studio (Carbon, etc.). My other option is to just park Ultimate and reinstate if/when really needed.

 

[Cruz Azul]

In Cubase I often use the parabolic (exponential / logarithmic) type curves when finessing MIDI CC data and was surprised it wouldn't let me use that curve in Pro Tools.

In Cubase I often use the parabolic (exponential / logarithmic) type curves when finessing MIDI CC data and was surprised it wouldn't let me use that curve in Pro Tools.

Yes, amazing that it's not possible in Pro Tools. Cubase/Logic - drop a curve in and drag/pull as needed. So much quicker!

 

[SimonFranglen]

One other thing to be aware of is that there's only 1024 midi tracks, which would constrain many heavy template users. Unbelievably, this is the same limit for Ultimate users. WHY? Ridiculous.

My feeling is for this reason alone PT isn't really a contender for many VI composers in any version. I tend to compose in Cubase and mix in PT.

One of the main reasons we gave up on Cubase was the 256 group limit - which I hit daily. I can't function with 256 groups but for some that's more than enough. As I said earlier on, whatever your axe is - great.

Trapanese and I both work in a similar fashion. Although we have VEP templates, PT Track Presets are so flexible that we have no need to carry thousands of tracks with folders of Albanian goat tubas, Aztec death whistles and that custom kazoo piano permanently in the template.

I've written Soundflows that auto-create Track Presets and tag all the instruments I make or load for any cue. I can always search for anything I might remember based on a keyword like cue name, sound type etc. I make use of fast RAIDS to make loading and auditioning nigh instant. Once I've found all my kazoo piano patches, I can drag all of the candidates in, audition then delete the ones that didn't make the grade. It's fast and painless.

I'm in awe of those with 2000 track setups, hats off to you. For what it's worth, at the point that 1536 MIDI channels actively firing events (1024 midi and 512 instruments) is not enough in a nine minute cue - please shoot me.

 

[SimonFranglen]

I think the Pro Tools lingo for what I meant was the parabolic curve. I tried using it in the MIDI editor but it was unavailable. only linear, freehand, and some other draw tools were available.

After searching the internet I mostly found answers saying that "Parabolic and S-curve tools are for tempo automation. Parameter automation is straight interpolation, not vector."

Taken from this link (https://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=367308)

In Cubase I often use the parabolic (exponential / logarithmic) type curves when finessing MIDI CC data and was surprised it wouldn't let me use that curve in Pro Tools.


I did notice this on the latest update, but I don't really use MIDI effect plugins. Doesn't hurt to have them though, might use them one day.

Yup. Totally agree. I've requested all of these for MIDI CC editing. PT is definitely behind the curve

 

[Tom_D]

Just wanted to say thanks to @SimonFranglen for the info you have shared in this thread. I remember seeing the interview you did with the Spitfire folks showing your space, seeing you using pro tools for composition there, and wondering about the details of how you tend to use it.

I do generally enjoy using pro tools and am still experimenting with it for composition. I find my vep setup is similar to what you have described, and I also agree that the track presets in PT are very useful and easy to work with. The instrument and midi track limitations aren't really an issue for me at this time (especially since I can use some unused instrument tracks to fill out my aux needs if I run out of aux tracks in PT Studio).

Your comments have given me some extra motivation to keep exploring the program.

 

[SimonFranglen]

Just wanted to say thanks to @SimonFranglen for the info you have shared in this thread. I remember seeing the interview you did with the Spitfire folks showing your space, seeing you using pro tools for composition there, and wondering about the details of how you tend to use it.

I do generally enjoy using pro tools and am still experimenting with it for composition. I find my vep setup is similar to what you have described, and I also agree that the track presets in PT are very useful and easy to work with. The instrument and midi track limitations aren't really an issue for me at this time (especially since I can use some unused instrument tracks to fill out my aux needs if I run out of aux tracks in PT Studio).

Your comments have given me some extra motivation to keep exploring the program.

No worries. I'm always happy to answer questions. After a decade lurking I should be adding to the noise.

 

[Guy Rowland]

One of the main reasons we gave up on Cubase was the 256 group limit - which I hit daily. I can't function with 256 groups but for some that's more than enough. As I said earlier on, whatever your axe is - great.

Trapanese and I both work in a similar fashion. Although we have VEP templates, PT Track Presets are so flexible that we have no need to carry thousands of tracks with folders of Albanian goat tubas, Aztec death whistles and that custom kazoo piano permanently in the template.

I've written Soundflows that auto-create Track Presets and tag all the instruments I make or load for any cue. I can always search for anything I might remember based on a keyword like cue name, sound type etc. I make use of fast RAIDS to make loading and auditioning nigh instant. Once I've found all my kazoo piano patches, I can drag all of the candidates in, audition then delete the ones that didn't make the grade. It's fast and painless.

I'm in awe of those with 2000 track setups, hats off to you. For what it's worth, at the point that 1536 MIDI channels actively firing events (1024 midi and 512 instruments) is not enough in a nine minute cue - please shoot me.

There's no group limit on 256 in Cubase (not that I've ever got remotely close to it). Number of groups is unlimited.

But I agree with you about PT's track presets - they are superb, and yours sounds like a great way of working. I'd imagine its a ton of work to set up a full template, but there again all templates are a ton of work.

My own way of working is a disabled VE Pro template. IIRC it's about 1,500 tracks. Super quick to navigate just using subfolders in Cubase. I also automate VE Pro enabling so I use a couple of pads on my keyboard to enable / disable. That, I think, is still a restriction in PT - I don't know of a way to do it. Now they're paying attention to midi again, something like Cubase's transformer utility is essential for this kind of chore.

 

[samphony]

One of the main reasons we gave up on Cubase was the 256 group limit - which I hit daily. I can't function with 256 groups but for some that's more than enough. As I said earlier on, whatever your axe is - great.

Trapanese and I both work in a similar fashion. Although we have VEP templates, PT Track Presets are so flexible that we have no need to carry thousands of tracks with folders of Albanian goat tubas, Aztec death whistles and that custom kazoo piano permanently in the template.

I've written Soundflows that auto-create Track Presets and tag all the instruments I make or load for any cue. I can always search for anything I might remember based on a keyword like cue name, sound type etc. I make use of fast RAIDS to make loading and auditioning nigh instant. Once I've found all my kazoo piano patches, I can drag all of the candidates in, audition then delete the ones that didn't make the grade. It's fast and painless.

I'm in awe of those with 2000 track setups, hats off to you. For what it's worth, at the point that 1536 MIDI channels actively firing events (1024 midi and 512 instruments) is not enough in a nine minute cue - please shoot me.

I think good next steps regarding Pro Tools and composer focus features would be:

- a similar feature to Studio One‘s music loops: meaning saving clips or clip groups or multiple tracks to the pool as (track) presets should include audio previews

- a general track visibility management overhaul. Users especially coming from other daws shouldn’t be forced to use memory locations for track visibility.
> show tracks with clips in range
> show tracks with clips at edit cursor
> show tracks with data
> live filter tracks like spotlight search
> redo/undo visibility changes

- open up satellite sync to third party so one can sample accurately sync say Ableton Live/Studio One or whichever other DAW adopted that protocol to get past the old MTC and MMC Protocols. Satellite sync is so much more reliable and tight. Once you worked with a satellite synced setup it’s similar to once you worked with a DAW that nailed its track visibility management = difficult to live without it.

 

[samphony]

Albanian goat tubas, Aztec death whistles

This made my day

 

[SimonFranglen]

There's no group limit on 256 in Cubase (not that I've ever got remotely close to it). Number of groups is unlimited.

But I agree with you about PT's track presets - they are superb, and yours sounds like a great way of working. I'd imagine its a ton of work to set up a full template, but there again all templates are a ton of work.

My own way of working is a disabled VE Pro template. IIRC it's about 1,500 tracks. Super quick to navigate just using subfolders in Cubase. I also automate VE Pro enabling so I use a couple of pads on my keyboard to enable / disable. That, I think, is still a restriction in PT - I don't know of a way to do it. Now they're paying attention to midi again, something like Cubase's transformer utility is essential for this kind of chore.

What was I doing wrong? With 36 x 7.1.4 stems, each with 4 preassigned FX sends I couldn't actually print things the way I wanted - or could with Logic, Studio One, Pro Tools. I was constantly running out of when creating my templates (see error message below). I did try to get help from Steinberg; they thought there was a 256 group channel limit (see Steinberg website below). I had to reduce my template to get around the problem.

I was fully committed to Cubase, I built really excellent PLE and LE workflows, the midi gradients are awesome etc… We ultimately found that the problems, balanced against the significant improvements that Avid had made in the interim to be worth the pain of moving again. There was much groaning.
FWIW, If I was working on my own, I'd probably look at Studio One. It's the dark horse coming in fast on the rails - what Arnd and the team are doing there is amazing - they just don't yet have a feature set that I need for the films I'm working on… yet. Logic was the best for performance and some of the midi features are superb, like painting ostinati, but the bussing structure bugs when moving between rigs were a hard no. I need to be able to move, import etc… between me and orchestrators, mixers, editors. Pro Tools has that side of things solved better than anyone. There is a joy to never having to convert anything. That gives me peace of mind at 6am with a 9am deadline.

We did build a fully automated VEP deactivated template initially. It's super easy in PT. We already had 'default starting point' MIDI clips at bar -3 (or bar 1 in Cubase) that set each track's CC1/2/3/4/6/7/11/21 etc… After that, we had a deactivated clip that the action of activating switched the track on. The problem was that VEP would sometimes choke on first play to activate tracks when recalling a previous cue - this happened in Cubase and PT. if one instance received (say) 300 activation messages something wasn't getting through, not every track would end up activated. I couldn't risk it.
We still have a large amount of automation going on for each track - to balance close/room/chamber/symphonic, divisi etc. We're still having some issues with Infinite Brass needing to be reset every so often.


FYI - Guy, I find out so much from your soundboard notes. My wallet isn't a fan.

 

[Tom_D]

There's no group limit on 256 in Cubase (not that I've ever got remotely close to it). Number of groups is unlimited.

Steinberg site does seem to show there is a 256 limit for group tracks. Audio, instrument, and midi tracks are unlimited.

Compare the Versions of Cubase

Depending on the size and complexity of your projects, your feature requirements and budget, you can choose the Cubase version that fits you best.

www.steinberg.net

 

[samphony]

What was I doing wrong? With 36 x 7.1.4 stems, each with 4 preassigned FX sends I couldn't actually print things the way I wanted - or could with Logic, Studio One, Pro Tools. I was constantly running out of when creating my templates (see error message below). I did try to get help from Steinberg; they thought there was a 256 group channel limit (see Steinberg website below). I had to reduce my template to get around the problem.

I was fully committed to Cubase, I built really excellent PLE and LE workflows, the midi gradients are awesome etc… We ultimately found that the problems, balanced against the significant improvements that Avid had made in the interim to be worth the pain of moving again. There was much groaning.
FWIW, If I was working on my own, I'd probably look at Studio One. It's the dark horse coming in fast on the rails - what Arnd and the team are doing there is amazing - they just don't yet have a feature set that I need for the films I'm working on… yet. Logic was the best for performance and some of the midi features are superb, like painting ostinati, but the bussing structure bugs when moving between rigs were a hard no. I need to be able to move, import etc… between me and orchestrators, mixers, editors. Pro Tools has that side of things solved better than anyone. There is a joy to never having to convert anything. That gives me peace of mind at 6am with a 9am deadline.

We did build a fully automated VEP deactivated template initially. It's super easy in PT. We already had 'default starting point' MIDI clips at bar -3 (or bar 1 in Cubase) that set each track's CC1/2/3/4/6/7/11/21 etc… After that, we had a deactivated clip that the action of activating switched the track on. The problem was that VEP would sometimes choke on first play to activate tracks when recalling a previous cue - this happened in Cubase and PT. if one instance received (say) 300 activation messages something wasn't getting through, not every track would end up activated. I couldn't risk it.
We still have a large amount of automation going on for each track - to balance close/room/chamber/symphonic, divisi etc. We're still having some issues with Infinite Brass needing to be reset every so often.


FYI - Guy, I find out so much from your soundboard notes. My wallet isn't a fan.

I too am fond of Studio One. Arnd and team are very great people. It comes close to a great mix of Pro Tools, Logic and Cubase features for me and the collaborators I am working with. Especially @Lukas scripts are tremendously helpful.

Still for linear workflows and in regards to the whole editing paradigm pro tools still has an edge over it … yet

 

[Guy Rowland]

Steinberg site does seem to show there is a 256 limit for group tracks. Audio, instrument, and midi tracks are unlimited.

Compare the Versions of Cubase

Depending on the size and complexity of your projects, your feature requirements and budget, you can choose the Cubase version that fits you best.

www.steinberg.net

Ach I stand corrected - I looked it up earlier and it said unlimted so I'm going mad. Must have looked at a different site / DAW. The senility kicking in again.

I haven't had that issue with VEP choking on activating many tracks, but l don't think I've got anywhere near 300 simultaneous activations (much like I haven't got anywhere near 256 groups!)

 

[resonate]

Now they're paying attention to midi again, something like Cubase's transformer utility is essential for this kind of chore.

All we need is a midi plugin (AAX) that will take care of these things, which hopefully will happen soon.

 

[chrisr]

a client specifically requests or provides a Pro-Tools session, then you need Pro-Tools.

I'm being pedantic here David but it's also possible to receive and deliver Pro-tools sessions via AATranslator for simple tasks like stem delivery.

 

[resonate]

So happy that Simon is chiming in on Vi-Control. I was very impressed and inspired watching his videos describing his setup (and lovely neumann speakers). I would say that Pro Tools has a really good chance at being the best, as long as the midi and vi performance it taken care of. The editing and mixing environment is second to none! Consistency is the word. It does not do you good when other DAWs have the same features but they are scattered all around the app.

 

[samphony]

So happy that Simon is chiming in on Vi-Control. I was very impressed and inspired watching his videos describing his setup (and lovely neumann speakers). I would say that Pro Tools has a really good chance at being the best, as long as the midi and vi performance it taken care of. The editing and mixing environment is second to none! Consistency is the word. It does not do you good when other DAWs have the same features but they are scattered all around the app.

And most often half baked and like you said not consistent. I say it again whenever we see pro tools adding features other daws have since the stone age (not my words), it’s implemented in a more clever way with a clear focus on usability.

I hope DAWproject gets adopted by Pro Tools in a not too distant future. So switching between DAWs becomes less cumbersome for certain workflows.

 

[Tom_D]

- a general track visibility management overhaul. Users especially coming from other daws shouldn’t be forced to use memory locations for track visibility.
> show tracks with clips in range
> show tracks with clips at edit cursor
> show tracks with data
> live filter tracks like spotlight search
> redo/undo visibility changes

- open up satellite sync to third party so one can sample accurately sync say Ableton Live/Studio One or whichever other DAW adopted that protocol to get past the old MTC and MMC Protocols. Satellite sync is so much more reliable and tight. Once you worked with a satellite synced setup it’s similar to once you worked with a DAW that nailed its track visibility management = difficult to live without it.

All of this, yes.

A few other things I was thinking about after working with PT this morning.

(1) Track name lengths. By the time I get the library, instrument, and any other info in there, the track only displays a jumbled short-form of the name. It works for mixing if all you write is "Drum Bus" but by the time I write EWSO_Trumpets_StaccRRx3, it is too long.

Now, the tracks list on the left of the edit window shows the whole name easily, but it doesn't update its location with your current selection. E.g. if I select a track in the edit window, I kind of wish the track list would move to where that track is (if it is currently out of view).

Scroll to track is a great idea, but there are two annoyances.

(1) The text drop down is super short so I can only see 2 or 3 entries and have to scroll up and down to see the rest. E.g. Search for "LASS", and you will only see a few tracks listed before you have to scroll down.

(2) You have to type the name exactly as it appears in your track, otherwise it will not show up in the list. E.g. I can't write "horns" and see all my horns tracks. I have to write CB_Horns to see CineBrass Horns.

The alternative is to use "Pro Tools Search", which is what I use most often. This is great as I can find tracks, groups, commands, etc. It also doesn't matter if you type things exactly, so i can indeed write "horns" and see all the horns tracks in a list. Plus the display is longer for some reason, so you can see more entries without scrolling. But one of its strengths is also its slight annoyance; If I only want to see tracks, I have to make sure I select the Horns MIDI track rather than the Horns bus or the Horns STEM or the Horns Group...etc. so because it shows everything, not just tracks, I have to be more careful that I'm selectibg the instrument and not something else.


TLDR - make the Scroll to track dropdown list longer to see more entries, and allow it to search any string of text in the track name (rather than demand you type the track name exactly as it appears)

 

[Tom_D]

General question to those using pro tools for composition - regarding midi exports, how do you approach them? I'll elaborate on why I'm asking...

Pro tools midi exports are a bit different than cubase, whereas all tracks in your PT session seem to be included in the export unless you mute them. With a big template I can imagine it being a pain if pro tools exports 500 tracks in a midi export. And it doesn't make sense to comb through a session muting all tracks with nothing in them. The alternative is to select all tracks with data on them and then right click the track header > export midi. Doable, but not as quick as a global export command.

Another oddity is that the manual for pro tools regarding midi exports seems incorrect in one area based on my testing. It says that muting midi clips has no effect on the export as long as the track itself is not muted; the data on the track will be exported regardless of whether the clips are muted or not. However, my testing seems to show that muting a clip, while leaving the track unmuted, means that the midi data is not included in the export. So muting clips does seem to have an effect.

Just curious about more experienced users thoughts on this process in PT.