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Mark Schmieder
Senior Member
With much effort and trial and error, I finally located a problem report follow-up from NI that addresses the issue, though it still took a lot of reboots, super-user actions, terminal commands, and adjustments to the instructions. Fortunately, I have years of experience on Unix so I always had a good clue of what to do when things didn't pan out in the instructions:
community.native-instruments.com
Probably each person's Mac will behave slightly differently depending on how they have set things up, but a positive side effect of going through this process is that I finally got superuser login to work again for the first time in years; I have been having to use "sudo" on individual commands, but that is the recommended approach for most things anyway.
I had to bootstrap my superuser login by using sudo to change its password. Kind of funny, really. Using "sudo" did not work for me, with the shell script provided above. I had to run it with "bash", but could only do that if logged in as "su" vs. using "sudo" on the command line.
After a few reboots as per the suggested sequence in NI's response, launching Native Access then went through several helper installations that had just been done on the command line, but I think it's all part of the bootstrapping to get it past the security walls.
Everything was fine after that, and now this new version is WAY faster, more responsive, and more correct in its display of my library status, than the older version. I am installing all of the Evolution Series updates and new libraries now, and also was surprised by how many other updates I have missed because they required Native Access v2!
Tips: Please grant permission to Native Access to install dependencies (NA2 on Mac)
If you get this message when opening Native Access:
community.native-instruments.com
Probably each person's Mac will behave slightly differently depending on how they have set things up, but a positive side effect of going through this process is that I finally got superuser login to work again for the first time in years; I have been having to use "sudo" on individual commands, but that is the recommended approach for most things anyway.
I had to bootstrap my superuser login by using sudo to change its password. Kind of funny, really. Using "sudo" did not work for me, with the shell script provided above. I had to run it with "bash", but could only do that if logged in as "su" vs. using "sudo" on the command line.
After a few reboots as per the suggested sequence in NI's response, launching Native Access then went through several helper installations that had just been done on the command line, but I think it's all part of the bootstrapping to get it past the security walls.
Everything was fine after that, and now this new version is WAY faster, more responsive, and more correct in its display of my library status, than the older version. I am installing all of the Evolution Series updates and new libraries now, and also was surprised by how many other updates I have missed because they required Native Access v2!
Geoff Grace
Senior Member
The South America collection looks right up my alley. I used to play a lot of Latin Percussion instruments, back when Santana ruled the airwaves here in the US. The timbales are an especially nice addition. The only thing I miss is a tambourine.
Is there one in any of these collections, by any chance? No big deal if it’s not. I have a number of sampled tambourines, plus the real deal.
Best,
Geoff
Is there one in any of these collections, by any chance? No big deal if it’s not. I have a number of sampled tambourines, plus the real deal.
Best,
Geoff
OP
OP
pulse
Senior Member
Actually that is a good question... for the life of me I can't remember. The fourth one definitely has a nice warm full sound. The Dan Moi is such a cool instrument... so much fun to play! I hope you enjoy it too!
Many thanks! I really didn't want to just do another harp library... I wanted to explore the prepared side of the instrument. I feel this library covers a nice balance between traditional techniques and extended techniques. Thanks for checking it out
Yikes sounds like a journey! I'm glad you got it sorted!With much effort and trial and error, I finally located a problem report follow-up from NI that addresses the issue, though it still took a lot of reboots, super-user actions, terminal commands, and adjustments to the instructions. Fortunately, I have years of experience on Unix so I always had a good clue of what to do when things didn't pan out in the instructions:
Tips: Please grant permission to Native Access to install dependencies (NA2 on Mac)
If you get this message when opening Native Access:
Probably each person's Mac will behave slightly differently depending on how they have set things up, but a positive side effect of going through this process is that I finally got superuser login to work again for the first time in years; I have been having to use "sudo" on individual commands, but that is the recommended approach for most things anyway.
I had to bootstrap my superuser login by using sudo to change its password. Kind of funny, really. Using "sudo" did not work for me, with the shell script provided above. I had to run it with "bash", but could only do that if logged in as "su" vs. using "sudo" on the command line.
After a few reboots as per the suggested sequence in NI's response, launching Native Access then went through several helper installations that had just been done on the command line, but I think it's all part of the bootstrapping to get it past the security walls.
Everything was fine after that, and now this new version is WAY faster, more responsive, and more correct in its display of my library status, than the older version. I am installing all of the Evolution Series updates and new libraries now, and also was surprised by how many other updates I have missed because they required Native Access v2!
Hey Geoff many thanks! Sadly no tambourine... we have a Tamborim but that's a little different
It's funny that we never sampled a tambourine, but that said I probably got drawn to sampling the more exotic instruments first! lol
Stevie
Use the modwheel, Luke!
Pretty much the same here. It's a permanent condition though, for like 1 year? Registering, logging in, downloading... everything is a catastrophe. Sorry to say, but NI currently is a big shit show.
Mark Schmieder
Senior Member
Well, tambourine isn't really a "world instrument" per se, and most of the countries included in these collections have other frame drums that are used instead, so the only one I might have expected to see it in is Europe, which includes orchestral drums and cymbals but also has some non-orchestral kit pieces such as kick drum.
I'm about to go through the new collections, so I'll remember to post my impressions of the additional surdo and also the timbales, with the latter being of special interest to me as the only ones I ever had that were at the pitch (and pitch interval!) that I needed were the ones in BFD Percussion, which I sold years ago after switching to Superior Drummer. Not even sure it's still available, anyway!
Timbales have gone through quite an evolution since they were invented. Many of the early models were practically in the kettle drum category. When I bought my first pair in the 80's, everyone in the Boston music stores considered them a variation of snare drum, but all of the cats I know from the Caribbean region or music traditions tell me they consider them a variant of toms.
South American libraries sometimes include a snare drum, but for most Brasilian forms, the Malacacheta and related Caixa de Guerra are more common, being similar in some ways but played more like an orchestral snare, standing vs. sitting, and flipping the drum so the wires are on the top. In addition, the wires are usually guitar strings (and fewer of them).
Just as with most instruments though, things are evolving, and though "drum kit" snare drums may be receding a bit in use, the indigenous alternatives themselves are continuing to evolve as well as to manifest more regional variants than ever.
Even so, the differences in sound, in a mix or ensemble, aren't huge, whereas a Tamborim is quite a different thing from a Tambourine. The Pandeiro might be a closer analogous instrument but even it is very different in resonance and pitch. And of course the Riq in Middle Eastern music is the likely ancestor of them all, and a bit closer in sound than the Brasilian frame drums are.
Jingles came later. They're also referred to as Zils, which is what they are called in their country of origin, Turkey -- although this term more frequently refers to Finger Cymbals. Even smaller frame drums don't always have jingles. But in western pop music, the jingle is more important than the sometimes-missing membrane (e.g., half-moon "rock" tambourines).
I'm about to go through the new collections, so I'll remember to post my impressions of the additional surdo and also the timbales, with the latter being of special interest to me as the only ones I ever had that were at the pitch (and pitch interval!) that I needed were the ones in BFD Percussion, which I sold years ago after switching to Superior Drummer. Not even sure it's still available, anyway!
Timbales have gone through quite an evolution since they were invented. Many of the early models were practically in the kettle drum category. When I bought my first pair in the 80's, everyone in the Boston music stores considered them a variation of snare drum, but all of the cats I know from the Caribbean region or music traditions tell me they consider them a variant of toms.
South American libraries sometimes include a snare drum, but for most Brasilian forms, the Malacacheta and related Caixa de Guerra are more common, being similar in some ways but played more like an orchestral snare, standing vs. sitting, and flipping the drum so the wires are on the top. In addition, the wires are usually guitar strings (and fewer of them).
Just as with most instruments though, things are evolving, and though "drum kit" snare drums may be receding a bit in use, the indigenous alternatives themselves are continuing to evolve as well as to manifest more regional variants than ever.
Even so, the differences in sound, in a mix or ensemble, aren't huge, whereas a Tamborim is quite a different thing from a Tambourine. The Pandeiro might be a closer analogous instrument but even it is very different in resonance and pitch. And of course the Riq in Middle Eastern music is the likely ancestor of them all, and a bit closer in sound than the Brasilian frame drums are.
Jingles came later. They're also referred to as Zils, which is what they are called in their country of origin, Turkey -- although this term more frequently refers to Finger Cymbals. Even smaller frame drums don't always have jingles. But in western pop music, the jingle is more important than the sometimes-missing membrane (e.g., half-moon "rock" tambourines).
Mark Schmieder
Senior Member
What happened to the MIDI articulation mapping feature/documentation? I don't see it in the GUI or in the PDF anymore. I hate guessing what articulation a note represents, just using my ears, and trying to remember it each time. Is this hidden somewhere in the GUI that I haven't found yet?
Interestingly, the new Mbira library DOES have an Articulations page! Maybe it's a case by case basis, but I am trying to do a quick overview tonight so as to identify which instruments I am likely to use as my first choices, given that I have many options for most of these already. Maybe I can pay more attention tomorrow to each snapshot as I load it, to see if the Articulations tab pops up.
I just now noticed the shortcut feature for a spatial mic mix, as described in the user manuals, for dragging the circle in the middle of the GUI to different positions in the plane. Such a time-saver!
Below are some mini-reviews across the libraries:
=====
As for the Timbales, I would characterize them as being medium pitch, at correct interval. This is not a qualitative judgment; just useful information for those who need some input as to whether they need another timbale source or not. The actual quality of the recordings is quite good, with variety of articulations. It's too late at night for me to dig out my Gon Bops timbales for a pitch comparison.
=====
For the Dan Moi, I don't see any MIDI controls -- are they there? Typically, I like to be able to control, the vowel shape and the mouth filter, just as with a Talk Box. There are lots of articulations present, but is there any real-time morphing with CC's?
=====
Surdo 4 is the same pitch as Surdo 3, meaning it is the highest pitch of the Surdos (Surdo 1 is the lowest), but it sounds muffled, so I am guessing that the same Surdo was used for both Surdo 3 and Surdo 4, but either a damping technique was used, a softer mallet, or possibly it was re-skinned with Korina or another less resonant synthetic material vs. goat skin, for a contrasting sound.
All Surdo patches have Open/Muted sound available, so Surdo 4 is not a Muted version of Surdo 3.
=====
The new Bongo Set 2 is quite low -- possibly the lowest one on offer at the moment. Having two distinct tonal choices is very advantageous, as bongos are sometimes tuned low and blended in with the conga set; whereas for many other musical styles, bongos are tuned super-high to really cut.
=====
The Lion Drums and Lion Cymbal are quite nice. I wasn't familiar with their context, but apparently they are used primarily to accompany Dragon Boat Racing, and are meant to cue the speed?
=====
The Cow Bell Set is refreshingly dry, and sounds to me almost like a more traditional folk set or even the African variety, but I could be wrong. Whatever the case, there's a nice variety and they don't have unwanted resonance like so many cow bells do.
=====
I just realized that the Hawai'ian Shaker is probably a Caxixi, and that it is named Hawai'ian in the library due to coconut being the main ingredient? I had always wondered why a Hawai'ian Shaker was lumped with South America, and what it is, but maybe it really is something different, and anyway, the only other alternative would be the Asia library.
I use this one a lot, and it sounds even better now.
=====
Holy cow, the steel pans are worth the price of entry alone! I didn't dare get my hopes up, but I am astounded by their quality, and thrilled that they were recorded with such deep knowledge of the instrument's traditions, which include separation of the role of the bass and treble versions of pans.
Interestingly, the new Mbira library DOES have an Articulations page! Maybe it's a case by case basis, but I am trying to do a quick overview tonight so as to identify which instruments I am likely to use as my first choices, given that I have many options for most of these already. Maybe I can pay more attention tomorrow to each snapshot as I load it, to see if the Articulations tab pops up.
I just now noticed the shortcut feature for a spatial mic mix, as described in the user manuals, for dragging the circle in the middle of the GUI to different positions in the plane. Such a time-saver!
Below are some mini-reviews across the libraries:
=====
As for the Timbales, I would characterize them as being medium pitch, at correct interval. This is not a qualitative judgment; just useful information for those who need some input as to whether they need another timbale source or not. The actual quality of the recordings is quite good, with variety of articulations. It's too late at night for me to dig out my Gon Bops timbales for a pitch comparison.
=====
For the Dan Moi, I don't see any MIDI controls -- are they there? Typically, I like to be able to control, the vowel shape and the mouth filter, just as with a Talk Box. There are lots of articulations present, but is there any real-time morphing with CC's?
=====
Surdo 4 is the same pitch as Surdo 3, meaning it is the highest pitch of the Surdos (Surdo 1 is the lowest), but it sounds muffled, so I am guessing that the same Surdo was used for both Surdo 3 and Surdo 4, but either a damping technique was used, a softer mallet, or possibly it was re-skinned with Korina or another less resonant synthetic material vs. goat skin, for a contrasting sound.
All Surdo patches have Open/Muted sound available, so Surdo 4 is not a Muted version of Surdo 3.
=====
The new Bongo Set 2 is quite low -- possibly the lowest one on offer at the moment. Having two distinct tonal choices is very advantageous, as bongos are sometimes tuned low and blended in with the conga set; whereas for many other musical styles, bongos are tuned super-high to really cut.
=====
The Lion Drums and Lion Cymbal are quite nice. I wasn't familiar with their context, but apparently they are used primarily to accompany Dragon Boat Racing, and are meant to cue the speed?
=====
The Cow Bell Set is refreshingly dry, and sounds to me almost like a more traditional folk set or even the African variety, but I could be wrong. Whatever the case, there's a nice variety and they don't have unwanted resonance like so many cow bells do.
=====
I just realized that the Hawai'ian Shaker is probably a Caxixi, and that it is named Hawai'ian in the library due to coconut being the main ingredient? I had always wondered why a Hawai'ian Shaker was lumped with South America, and what it is, but maybe it really is something different, and anyway, the only other alternative would be the Asia library.
I use this one a lot, and it sounds even better now.
=====
Holy cow, the steel pans are worth the price of entry alone! I didn't dare get my hopes up, but I am astounded by their quality, and thrilled that they were recorded with such deep knowledge of the instrument's traditions, which include separation of the role of the bass and treble versions of pans.
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Mark Schmieder
Senior Member
I recommend people install these libraries on an SSD, as they come as single Kontakt patches, with the individual instruments loaded as snapshots.
I'm going to move mine to my crowded SSD tomorrow, to speed up Kontakt load times.
The Tuned Percussion, understandably, takes the longest to load (I didn't buy the Ensemble library).
Europe is also a long load, probably due to the Grand Ensemble combinations.
I'm going to move mine to my crowded SSD tomorrow, to speed up Kontakt load times.
The Tuned Percussion, understandably, takes the longest to load (I didn't buy the Ensemble library).
Europe is also a long load, probably due to the Grand Ensemble combinations.
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Someone45356
New Member
The lowness of it reminds me of the very folkloric bongo del monte. But actually I do know there is one bongo del monte sample library so that might actually be the lowest.
OP
OP
pulse
Senior Member
Thanks so much for your thoughts... always great to get feedbackWhat happened to the MIDI articulation mapping feature/documentation? I don't see it in the GUI or in the PDF anymore. I hate guessing what articulation a note represents, just using my ears, and trying to remember it each time. Is this hidden somewhere in the GUI that I haven't found yet?
Interestingly, the new Mbira library DOES have an Articulations page! Maybe it's a case by case basis, but I am trying to do a quick overview tonight so as to identify which instruments I am likely to use as my first choices, given that I have many options for most of these already. Maybe I can pay more attention tomorrow to each snapshot as I load it, to see if the Articulations tab pops up.
I just now noticed the shortcut feature for a spatial mic mix, as described in the user manuals, for dragging the circle in the middle of the GUI to different positions in the plane. Such a time-saver!
Below are some mini-reviews across the libraries:
=====
As for the Timbales, I would characterize them as being medium pitch, at correct interval. This is not a qualitative judgment; just useful information for those who need some input as to whether they need another timbale source or not. The actual quality of the recordings is quite good, with variety of articulations. It's too late at night for me to dig out my Gon Bops timbales for a pitch comparison.
=====
For the Dan Moi, I don't see any MIDI controls -- are they there? Typically, I like to be able to control, the vowel shape and the mouth filter, just as with a Talk Box. There are lots of articulations present, but is there any real-time morphing with CC's?
=====
Surdo 4 is the same pitch as Surdo 3, meaning it is the highest pitch of the Surdos (Surdo 1 is the lowest), but it sounds muffled, so I am guessing that the same Surdo was used for both Surdo 3 and Surdo 4, but either a damping technique was used, a softer mallet, or possibly it was re-skinned with Korina or another less resonant synthetic material vs. goat skin, for a contrasting sound.
All Surdo patches have Open/Muted sound available, so Surdo 4 is not a Muted version of Surdo 3.
=====
The new Bongo Set 2 is quite low -- possibly the lowest one on offer at the moment. Having two distinct tonal choices is very advantageous, as bongos are sometimes tuned low and blended in with the conga set; whereas for many other musical styles, bongos are tuned super-high to really cut.
=====
The Lion Drums and Lion Cymbal are quite nice. I wasn't familiar with their context, but apparently they are used primarily to accompany Dragon Boat Racing, and are meant to cue the speed?
=====
The Cow Bell Set is refreshingly dry, and sounds to me almost like a more traditional folk set or even the African variety, but I could be wrong. Whatever the case, there's a nice variety and they don't have unwanted resonance like so many cow bells do.
=====
I just realized that the Hawai'ian Shaker is probably a Caxixi, and that it is named Hawai'ian in the library due to coconut being the main ingredient? I had always wondered why a Hawai'ian Shaker was lumped with South America, and what it is, but maybe it really is something different, and anyway, the only other alternative would be the Asia library.
I use this one a lot, and it sounds even better now.
=====
Holy cow, the steel pans are worth the price of entry alone! I didn't dare get my hopes up, but I am astounded by their quality, and thrilled that they were recorded with such deep knowledge of the instrument's traditions, which include separation of the role of the bass and treble versions of pans.
It's been a long day so sorry for my quick reply. Unfortunately the articulation page had to go due to the one mighty kontakt instrument approach we took. We really did consider adding it but it just made the whole UI experience too cluttered. Maybe this is something to consider for the future. That said maybe I can create a pdf document with all the hit types for each drum. It might take a bit but I'll work on it. Sorry for the hassle. As for the Dan Moi you are limited to the sampled performances. That said we did try to capture a wide variety of playing styles so I think it is definitely possible to create some lively mockups.Glad you like the Steel Pans... they were such beautiful instruments to record. Another favourite of mine is the Gypsy Dulcimer. Its like the granny piano of dulcimers... add Eventide Blackhole and hear the magic happen
Yeah I though it would be a nice contrast to have a low pitch bongo set... more options the merrier
Geoff Grace
Senior Member
Yes, tambourines aren't exactly a "world instrument" in the sense of localized "ethnic" libraries, which is what we're talking about here. I didn't mean to imply I thought they should have been in these collections, just that I (personally) miss them when I don't see them included with instruments I would use in a Latin context. I also realize this is billed as a South America library, not a Latin percussion one. There's some overlap, but they're not exactly the same.
Now that that's out of the way, I want to add that tambourines aren't unusual in Latin percussion sections, at least here in the US. As an example, one need only look at how many types of tambourines the brand "Latin Percussion" makes:
Percussion - Tambourines
www.lpmusic.com
In short, tambourines aren't out of place in a Latin percussion library; but they aren't a crucial part of one either.
Anyway, I didn't mean to derail the thread. These look like great libraries. I'm especially interested in the timbale samples at this point, because they're not nearly as commonplace as tambourine samples, and they have a great sound.
I'm encouraged by your review. Thanks, Mark!As for the Timbales, I would characterize them as being medium pitch, at correct interval. This is not a qualitative judgment; just useful information for those who need some input as to whether they need another timbale source or not. The actual quality of the recordings is quite good, with variety of articulations. It's too late at night for me to dig out my Gon Bops timbales for a pitch comparison.
Best,
Geoff
Someone45356
New Member
The naming is actually interesting if going by technicalities, especially since the pack itself would definitely earn itself the name as a “Iberoamerican” percussion library at that point. For it to actually be latin there’d have to also be represented in Haiti (Tanbou drums?) and Quebec (podorythmie?) in there as well. But it really is more like semantics of course lol
And the thing as well is that its not like it doesn’t earn its name as a south american library either. Brazilian instruments are basically never ever used in the “latin” Puerto Rican, Cuban, or Newyorrican ensembles save some novelties here and there. Alongside this, cumbia ensembles in the rest of south america are super popular and they do use the instruments featured here a lot (the timbales, bongó, congas). Of course I’d say the guiro (the metal guira more specifically)
is the big omission if we’re talking cumbia but the quality of the sounds of the instruments present is so good that I think it can definitely be overlooked.
OP
OP
pulse
Senior Member
Hi All just letting you know we had to push out a small update for:
World Percussion Asia, Middle East and Ensembles. For some reason the 'Data' folder was missing in the installer. With out the Data folder the midi engine previews and drag and drop feature will not work correctly. The good folk and NI have managed to push out the update quickly for me. It is only a small download so best to grab it when you get a chance
World Percussion Asia, Middle East and Ensembles. For some reason the 'Data' folder was missing in the installer. With out the Data folder the midi engine previews and drag and drop feature will not work correctly. The good folk and NI have managed to push out the update quickly for me. It is only a small download so best to grab it when you get a chance
quietmind
Active Member
@pulse I'd put in a vote for the future for you to sample Sundanese sulings. Getting the full range of rulings and lots of dynamic levels, with close and room mics would be incredible. These are incredibly expressive instruments, and for some reason, rarely if ever sampled, and not with any degree of dynamic depth that captures what they can do.
OP
OP
pulse
Senior Member
Great idea! Thanks for the suggestion
Mark Schmieder
Senior Member
Interesting request as I just listened to a Lou Harrison gamelan composition CD tonight. He was one of my favorite modern composers, had a big influence on John Adams, and was one of the main composition instructors for Keith Jarrett. One of the biggest proponents of gamelan in the classical world, and the pieces I listened to tonight feature the Sundanese sulings.
Mark Schmieder
Senior Member
Many NI libs have a hover feature over the MIDI keyboard that says what the note maps to, articulation-wise etc. As they make money from licensing and aren't specifically a "direct competitor", perhaps they would be helpful in how to apply this feature vs. another vendor who is an NI licensee.
Although I did some work for a few vendors on this site during COVID, none of it was Kontakt programming, so I unfortunately don't have deep knowledge of its capabilities as a developer.
OP
OP
pulse
Senior Member
Interesting idea thanks... I'll keep that in mind and ask my scripting guru his thoughts
quietmind
Active Member
I met Lou a couple of times. Wonderful soul.
Mark Schmieder
Senior Member
Lou was a very gentle soul and gave so much of his time to people, asking nothing in return.
Ethnomusicology is baked into my DNA, as my grandmother, before she married, was a child prodigy performing at major concert venues and she was the only pianist that Colin McPhee would allow to accompany him. Colin is well known as one of the earliest proponents of gamelan in North America.
From Boston Modern Orchestra's website:
"Colin McPhee was a Canadian composer and musicologist. He is primarily known for being the first Western composer to make an ethnomusicological study of Bali, and for the quality of that work. He also composed music influenced by that of Bali and Java decades before such world music–based compositions became widespread."
Lou Harrison was heavily influenced by Colin. My grandmother met Colin while he was at Peabody Conservatory. My brother and I saw the premier of an opera based on his life, a few years ago.
Colin McPhee
Colin McPhee, composer, ethnomusicologist, pianist, professor (b at Montreal, 15 Mar 1900; d at Los Angeles, 7 Jan 1964). ...
www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca
Colin's role in promoting the study of non-western instruments in western conservatories cannot be understated. The impact this had on composers who followed, such as Philip Glass, John Adams, Lou Harrison, and much of modern Hollywood film scoring, is immeasurable.
Here is a more thorough study of the gamelan in North America:
And as musical instruments continue to evolve, no matter how old they are or where they are used, this is an interesting study of adaptations of gamelan construction for greater mobility:
Bringing gamelan to the west
Neil McLachlan recounts the development of a new version of the gamelan instrument adapted to the mobile Western lifestyle while keeping true to the Indonesian musical scale.
garlandmag.com
I don't think it is yet known for certain whether gamelan is the original East Asian "orchestra" and whether all the other traditional instruments of the region, such as Peking Opera Orchestra, ultimately derive from it, or vice-versa, or whether it was a symbiotic relationship from the start.
