Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread
- Thread starter M0rdechai
- Start date
Sean J
Noise Maker
I own Dorico and Notion and have tested it in Notion, though I'm about to setup a template in Dorico. In Notion, it sounded flat if loaded raw. If you add detailed rules for accents and things like changing note length for staccatos, Infinite sounded as good as your average mock-up that way. The only thing it needs is some humanizing. A Kontakt multiscript could do it for Notion. Dorico has built-in humanizing, and easily the best and most thorough of all notation programs. It does most all the right things. So if I was getting good results in Notion, the results would only be better in Dorico. It will still need as thorough of an expression map as possible. The thing about notation is that Infinite is very capable. You just have to turn Dorico into a performer. It has all the abilities to do it, you just have to tell the program to use them.
It's pretty obvious that notation and Infinite has a lot of potential. Most libraries just aren't built for the kind of agility a notation program tends to demand of a VI. I'll post a mock-up made in Dorico on this thread once I'm done.
Sean J
Noise Maker
Actually... I just did some tests and found some map-related playback bugs regarding note length. Forget what I said. I did get good results in Dorico, but there's some real issues to know about right now.
Notion has an advantage I just encountered. Editing CC in Notion is easier as it's in-line with the staff (like StaffPad does it). Dorico's workflow is much more cumbersome here. Great features, just wonky and snail-paced to edit. This will matter for sustained performances. In Dorico, you can still get good note-length related playback results, but only if you change Dorico's overall playback settings. If you plan to use another library with Infinite, that could be a problem.
I disabled the map I made and only changed note durations in the playback options. It's buried under the Play Tab > Play Menu (at the top) > Playback Options (bottom) > Timing (left panel) > under Note Durations. This method works reliably right now. Dorico's default value is .25 for staccatos, which is unnaturally short with Infinite. I tried 47% and it sounded great at 160 bpm and 80 bpm (given the length being a percentage of the original note duration).
Tweaking just that one section in the settings gets you to a very good starting point with Infinite. You'd still want an expression map for brass mutes, flutter, and growl. Dorico has a lot of potential to map techniques (including custom techniques) like "overblown" to the breath knob in Infinite. You could even add "concert hall" to your score and have it change the room mid-score if you wanted. This can be a rabbit hole, so I'd first suggest tweaking just the playback options and writing a score. Once you're used to it, then you can figure out what settings you want to fine-tune, if any.
Thanks for your detailed reply. I use Dorico and would love more 3rd party integration much like Noteperformer or StaffPad. Even though we're in 2020 we're still at the widget level as far as combining DAWs, VSTs, templates etc. It's almost like we're still debating whether spark plug A is better than spark plug B for our cars. Hopefully the next version of Dorico later this year will address some of these integration issues.
DANIELE
I love to make music but I also love to make music
Would you mind to share the midis?
pierrevigneron
Active Member
At the risk of making a fool of myself after that demo, here's a couple snippets of WIP projects that make use of Infinite Brass and Winds!
I ask that you all excuse some sloppy MIDI, mixing, and composition.
Demo 1 is the one with wild writing I mentioned earlier. It uses Hollywood Strings. For the sake of showcase, all brass have been changed to Infinite Brass even where it might not have worked as well the original parts written with Hollywood Brass.
Demo 2 shows how Infinite might handle slower, more melodic music. It uses Cinematic Studio Strings (which I'm new to, so again, excuse the rather amateur sound).
For both demos, all brass is Infinite, and all woodwinds is Infinite except flutes.
I really like your orchestration of demo 1 could you send it back entirely?
El Buhdai
Active Member
Thanks! What do you mean send it back entirely?
DANIELE
I love to make music but I also love to make music
Thank you so much.
Figured I'd post something here too. I'm mostly clueless when it comes to brass arranging so this is mostly a pastiche based on listening to dans piece lol (https://vi-control.net/community/th...ron-venture-thread.86499/page-52#post-4533099)
This midi export is probably a mess due to me using FL..
This midi export is probably a mess due to me using FL..
Sean J
Noise Maker
Well it sounds like something brass players like playing.
It's a great demo of the library. The MIDI performance could improve a bit IMHO. It needs a bit more sfz in the attack to reflect how competitive brass players get about being bold and forceful, competitive, and downright cut-throat."How many trumpet players does it take to screw in a light bulb? One to actually do it and the rest to say how much better they could have done it". --- "How do you make a trombone sound like a french horn? You stick your hand in the bell and play all the wrong notes". hehehe, we're evil to each other.
shawnsingh
Senior Member
So I integrated IB 1.4 into my latest template, with a rough mix to match Berlin Brass.
Attached is a comparison between BB and IB with my rough mix. The same motif repeated on various instruments/ensembles, and a big fanfare at the end.
1. BB horn 1
2. IB horn 1
3. BB horn 2
4. BB horn 3
5. BB horn 4
6. BB horn Ensemble
7. IB horn Ensemble
8. BB+JXL solo horns divisi triads
9. IB solo horns divisi triads
10. BB trumpet 1
11. IB trumpet 1
12. BB trumpet 2
13. BB trumpet 3
14. BB trumpet Ensemble
15. IB trumpet Ensemble
16. BB+JXL solo trumpets divisi triads
17. IB solo trumpets divisi triads
18. BB trombone 1
19. IB trombone 1
20. BB trombone 2
21. BB trombone ensemble (2 tenos, 1 bass trombone)
22. IB trombone ensemble (3 tenors only)
23. BB solo tenor/bass trombones divisi triads
24. IB solo trombones divisi triads
25. BB bass trombone
26. IB bass trombone 1
27. BB tuba
28. IB tuba
29. fanfare: Berlin Strings, Berlin Percussion, Infinite Brass (no Berlin/JXL Brass at all)
I mixed IB to roughly match BB - It only took one EQ and one VSL convolution reverb, applied to the same bus for all IB instruments. I disabled the ambient mic on all instruments. The VSL plugin is ideal here because it has a Teldex IR, but also it has specific features that come in very handy - ability to sculpt how hi-pass/lo-pass filters change over time on the IR, and ability to narrow the start/stop times of which part of the IR to use. These features made it possible to add the Teldex tone on top of the Mozarteum Salzburg Infinite Brass IRs without making things too wet at all. I probably should put more effort in trying the Bursa/Studio IRs instead.
My personal conclusion:
- The tone is as great as libraries like Berlin Brass, just a bit different. Who knows, maybe I could even have mixed them to be even more similar if I keep trying. But actually I think the difference is useful. I predict that IB could be mixed to work well with spitfire SSO as well, but I don't have that library.
- One place where IB sounds a little muddy and less precise in stereo image compared to Berlin Brass is when orchestrating individual players in triads. I'm not sure if there's something I can do to mix or program it better to improve that? Most likely this is not something that will matter too much in a composition in practice.
- With 1.4 this time I gave the trombones and tuba a real honest try - which I personally had a hard time with them before. Now I think I've figured out how to program them to sound good, plus tone improvements with 1.4, they sound pretty good to me!
- The ability to program performance nuances in Infinite Brass is WAY beyond what's possible in the other sample libraries I own. This just can't be understated how useful and rewarding it is - the ability to have arbitrary length short notes, the ability to sculpt almost any kind of attack I can fathom with just note velocity and CC1.
Attached is a comparison between BB and IB with my rough mix. The same motif repeated on various instruments/ensembles, and a big fanfare at the end.
1. BB horn 1
2. IB horn 1
3. BB horn 2
4. BB horn 3
5. BB horn 4
6. BB horn Ensemble
7. IB horn Ensemble
8. BB+JXL solo horns divisi triads
9. IB solo horns divisi triads
10. BB trumpet 1
11. IB trumpet 1
12. BB trumpet 2
13. BB trumpet 3
14. BB trumpet Ensemble
15. IB trumpet Ensemble
16. BB+JXL solo trumpets divisi triads
17. IB solo trumpets divisi triads
18. BB trombone 1
19. IB trombone 1
20. BB trombone 2
21. BB trombone ensemble (2 tenos, 1 bass trombone)
22. IB trombone ensemble (3 tenors only)
23. BB solo tenor/bass trombones divisi triads
24. IB solo trombones divisi triads
25. BB bass trombone
26. IB bass trombone 1
27. BB tuba
28. IB tuba
29. fanfare: Berlin Strings, Berlin Percussion, Infinite Brass (no Berlin/JXL Brass at all)
I mixed IB to roughly match BB - It only took one EQ and one VSL convolution reverb, applied to the same bus for all IB instruments. I disabled the ambient mic on all instruments. The VSL plugin is ideal here because it has a Teldex IR, but also it has specific features that come in very handy - ability to sculpt how hi-pass/lo-pass filters change over time on the IR, and ability to narrow the start/stop times of which part of the IR to use. These features made it possible to add the Teldex tone on top of the Mozarteum Salzburg Infinite Brass IRs without making things too wet at all. I probably should put more effort in trying the Bursa/Studio IRs instead.
My personal conclusion:
- The tone is as great as libraries like Berlin Brass, just a bit different. Who knows, maybe I could even have mixed them to be even more similar if I keep trying. But actually I think the difference is useful. I predict that IB could be mixed to work well with spitfire SSO as well, but I don't have that library.
- One place where IB sounds a little muddy and less precise in stereo image compared to Berlin Brass is when orchestrating individual players in triads. I'm not sure if there's something I can do to mix or program it better to improve that? Most likely this is not something that will matter too much in a composition in practice.
- With 1.4 this time I gave the trombones and tuba a real honest try - which I personally had a hard time with them before. Now I think I've figured out how to program them to sound good, plus tone improvements with 1.4, they sound pretty good to me!
- The ability to program performance nuances in Infinite Brass is WAY beyond what's possible in the other sample libraries I own. This just can't be understated how useful and rewarding it is - the ability to have arbitrary length short notes, the ability to sculpt almost any kind of attack I can fathom with just note velocity and CC1.
shawnsingh
Senior Member
oh - after that verbose essay, I forgot the attachment. Attached here.
I like music
Senior Member
You're a legend! IB sounding fantastic here mate. Great work!
Is it cheeky to ask what settings you used here and how your matched it?
Because it is tasty!
aaronventure
Senior Member
I don't think the EQ there is really the horns any favors, they sound like they are slightly muted. Shorts in horns are also a bit easier to play if you lower your CC1 by half and just higher velocity instead, that way you get that slightly rounded attack.
Here's something that's closer to what you're trying to achieve with horns (just the first example). Nothing was done here, this is how it loads out of the box (Mozarteum), except I added a bit of ambient mics. I uploaded the MIDI as well so you can see what I mean by lower CC1.
Eh, not really how it works, since you're plugging in an already wet and positioned sound. You're sending all the reflections from Mozarteum through another set of reflections.
If you want to try MIR, your best bet would be to disable the built-in convolution and use it that way.
shawnsingh
Senior Member
Oh thanks for the comments! I'm happy to give the details of the mix, let me first improve it based on Aaron's feedback.
Aaron, thanks so much for the reply - I cannot unhear the mute-like sound on the horns now that you pointed it out. I can also hear a high frequency sheen on the trumpets too, probably caused by the same EQ issues.
About the VSL Teldex IR on top of Mozarteum - actually I'm not using MIR here, this is the VSL suite convolution, and I cut the entire early reflection region of the IR with the start/length options I mentioned earlier, so it should only be applying the late part of the IR, this not compounding early reflections. But still you're right that one IR doesn't just override the tone of the other, I should have known better. I think your suggested approach of leaning more on the ambient and not using another reverb will be better.
Aaron, thanks so much for the reply - I cannot unhear the mute-like sound on the horns now that you pointed it out. I can also hear a high frequency sheen on the trumpets too, probably caused by the same EQ issues.
About the VSL Teldex IR on top of Mozarteum - actually I'm not using MIR here, this is the VSL suite convolution, and I cut the entire early reflection region of the IR with the start/length options I mentioned earlier, so it should only be applying the late part of the IR, this not compounding early reflections. But still you're right that one IR doesn't just override the tone of the other, I should have known better. I think your suggested approach of leaning more on the ambient and not using another reverb will be better.
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I like music
Senior Member
@aaronventure I haven't written anything with the new brass + winds yet. While we have the 'old' halls with the winds, any advice on which ones go together the best with the new rooms in IB?
aaronventure
Senior Member
Nothing wrong with using the tail only, that should be fine. Just watch out if it muddies your sound (and whether that's what you want).
The scheme's the same. New ones have RTs of 0.5 s, 0.9 s, 1,5 s. Old scoring stage is around 1.0s, and old medium hall is around 1.6s. Old large hall is around 2.2 s, if you're gonna use that, slap some tail on top of the medium hall.
