Handling Cues in Film Scoring -Cubase/Logic

[charlieclouser]

Totally correct, Charlie. Preserve just means it does not disappear when unconnected. Decouple means that you load your VE Pro template and if your Logic template was saved, it automatically connects to a loaded VE Pro template, Coupled means it will populate an empty VE Pro server project, which sounds like a good idea, but it creates more problems than it solves.

Good, that's what I thought. Thanks for that, Jay.

It's kind of a drag though, because Preserve + Coupled is the closest functionality to what I get by using a zillion instances of EXS-24 with "Keep Common Samples In Memory" turned ON - when switching songs, the samples stay loaded but the front panel settings get replaced by those in the newly-loaded song. This way the songs load very quickly but I can still have unique, per-song settings for filter, ADSR, etc. The only part that stays is the sample maps themselves. This is ideal for how I like to work. But using VEPro with Preserve + Coupled always seemed to be problematic - things would unload and reload even when I thought they wouldn't, and it would often unload a whole frame and reload what appeared to be basically the same frame.

I'm realizing that the smoothest way to work with VEPro seems to be Preserve + Decoupled, so the only thing the newly-loaded song tries to do is re-establish connections with named server instances, but doesn't try to push front panel settings to them. This is a drag for me, and seems to be the cause of the issue that ryanstrong described - you adjust mic mixing in a Kontakt instrument on one cue, then adjust them in another cue, and now the first cue's settings are gone. It appears the only solution for this is to use Preserve + Coupled, which has it's own issues. Drag. I guess Preserve + Decoupled could be fine for those who have a standardized "realistic" sound established that can be used for all of the cues in a project, or route the mic positions separately back to the DAW for individual control there, but... hmmmm.

 

[Gerhard Westphalen]

Good, that's what I thought. Thanks for that, Jay.

It's kind of a drag though, because Preserve + Coupled is the closest functionality to what I get by using a zillion instances of EXS-24 with "Keep Common Samples In Memory" turned ON - when switching songs, the samples stay loaded but the front panel settings get replaced by those in the newly-loaded song. This way the songs load very quickly but I can still have unique, per-song settings for filter, ADSR, etc. The only part that stays is the sample maps themselves. This is ideal for how I like to work. But using VEPro with Preserve + Coupled always seemed to be problematic - things would unload and reload even when I thought they wouldn't, and it would often unload a whole frame and reload what appeared to be basically the same frame.

I'm realizing that the smoothest way to work with VEPro seems to be Preserve + Decoupled, so the only thing the newly-loaded song tries to do is re-establish connections with named server instances, but doesn't try to push front panel settings to them. This is a drag for me, and seems to be the cause of the issue that ryanstrong described - you adjust mic mixing in a Kontakt instrument on one cue, then adjust them in another cue, and now the first cue's settings are gone. It appears the only solution for this is to use Preserve + Coupled, which has it's own issues. Drag. I guess Preserve + Decoupled could be fine for those who have a standardized "realistic" sound established that can be used for all of the cues in a project, or route the mic positions separately back to the DAW for individual control there, but... hmmmm.

Why don't you just control the mic mixing with midi? I never adjust it on the actual Kontakt instrument gui in VEP. I've never had any issues with things getting messed up when opening sessions except for when I open a project using an old version of my VEP template and forget to load that metaframe. I rarely use the default sound mixed in my template but rather change it for most projects and it's never been an issue. It's different if you're doing more complex mixing directly in the instruments with parameters that can't be accessed through midi but that seems to be rare for most of us.

 

[charlieclouser]

Why don't you just control the mic mixing with midi? I never adjust it on the actual Kontakt instrument gui in VEP. I've never had any issues with things getting messed up when opening sessions except for when I open a project using an old version of my VEP template and forget to load that metaframe. I rarely use the default sound mixed in my template but rather change it for most projects and it's never been an issue. It's different if you're doing more complex mixing directly in the instruments with parameters that can't be accessed through midi but that seems to be rare for most of us.

That solution would certainly work. I don't usually need to mess with mic mixing anyway, when I'm concerned about Preserved Kontakt instances it's usually because of more complex and fiddly synth-type instruments that have lots of front-panel tweaks that I want to be unique per cue. For orchestral stuff I can usually just load, Decouple, save, and go. Anyway, most of the orchestral libraries don't really have that much stuff to adjust besides mic mixing - but when I'm using orchestral stuff in EXS I'm usually tweaking ADSR, filter, etc. - and these are usually parameters which aren't even accessible from the front panel of most orchestral Kontakt instruments, so it's no biggie really.

 

[Dean]

I'm doing a film now, by reels, and it's been horrible so the next time will be scene by scene. Curious though... let's say you dig something you wrote in an earlier scene and would like to bring it back later... what is the best way to access that midi data? Just copy from the old session and paste in the new session? This is the one advantage of working by reels is that its very easy to go back and pick out some previous work.

What do you think think?

Always go cue by cue.

I use the same master session/project when Im developing the score,I start a few hours into the session [without picture]and start working out the main themes,key scenes orchestration,variations,,tone.mood and so on] all this music I send to the director as I go along,.find out whats working from the director,..eventually you end up with large pool of approved themes/ideas/styles/tones.

Use this master session as your template for each individual cue [import each reel at the start of the session] then you can copy and paste from the large pool of music you've created further down the session,save it all as you go along through each cue and you soon end with a growing pool of new ideas.

D

 

[Dean]

I've never understood why you would want to use Preserve because if you want to change the mix balance of say mic positions on an instrument it doesn't maintain.

For example...

Cue 1
You decide the track needs to be more intimate so you use close mics on the Violas.

With that preserved state of close mics you now move on to Cue 2.

Cue 2
This is a bigger action scene that followed the intimate scene so now you need more room mics of the Violas. You slide the room mics up.

Now you go back to Cue 1 and the settings for Cue 2 have been preserved and now you've lost your intimate sound.

Isn't this the essence of Preserved? Maybe I've misunderstood/misused Preserve.

I know what you mean but you can always add new instruments with different mic settings to your VE Pro template as you go,[as for VE Pro settings]I usually load a few [Kontakt/Play] string/brass instruments [some with a close intimate setting and the other with a 'bigger' sound] and save that moving forward so in the one template you can go from intimate to a bigger sound.If something requires a very different sound or you simply run out of instrument slots of course you can create a new specific template for that set of big action cues, but generally a well loaded VE Pro template with 200 instruments [some with multible Key swtiches is more than enough.]

I did a few large scores recently with 70+ cues and only needed about 5 or 6 different Ve Pro templates. We all have our own ways of course,..whatever works.
D

 

[Dean]

Ive always used VE Pro decoupled.

 

[Jono]

Just about to start on a feature and they've given me the full edit minus any reels (they had said they wanted to work in reels - as did I). Would you chop up the picture yourself, save multiple projects with the entire video file or go back and ask for the reels?

 

[lupaul]

I would ask for the reels.
It may bring a lot of problems if you start work on entire video file and later have to sync cues to reels.

 

[guydoingmusic]

So aside from DP's chunk feature, Im curious to know how others are handling multiple film cues in Cubase or Logic? (Don't have time or energy to learn DP)

Im currently using Cubase, and have gotten away unscathed using a single session for all previous film projects. But in my most recent project, things got really messy with changes in edits. In fact, it was a nightmare. (tempo mapping hell!)

Im getting ready to score a feature film and need to figure out a better way that provides flexibility for film edits, but that still allows the ability to see the "big" picture of the score.

Are you guys creating a new project for every cue? What happens when the timecode changes to account for new edits? Are you importing new videos to each and every cue/project? Is VE Pro pretty much a must?

Any insight/tips from power users would be very much appreciated!

@jemu999 I asked the same question a while back and got some very valuable advice in this thread https://vi-control.net/community/threads/managing-cues-feat-length-film.49731/ -- I encourage you to read through it. Literally saved me a lot of headaches by taking suggestions (one person's in particular) given. I hope this will help you as well.

 

[Jono]

Got the reels. Got started. Got new edit and got very happy I'd asked for the reels

I'm a week away from making it out alive...

 

[DS_Joost]

In Cubase, the switching between project files is very easy, and you don't even need VEPro. I have it, but don't use it anymore. This is how I do it, and it has been the most painless and effortless for me:

Create 1 project for 1 cue with my master template with all tracks disabled. Start composing and enabling tracks whenever I need them. Save the project. DON'T CLOSE IT. Next cue, take the project from last cue, use it again. Cubase will load the samples again BUT HERE IS THE CATCH: as long as you don't complete shutdown the last project, the new project will load the same samples a lot faster than before. Even a big cue that uses about 25 gigs of RAM (I rarely use more) will load in under a minute. A project with VEPro would take almost as long because it has to disconnect and reconnect again.

So on and so forth.

How many times do you actually switch cues a day? I do that maybe 4 times, 10 at the most on a very productive day.

I like VEPro, but it causes more harm than good to me in the long run. The above is the best compromise (because it will always be a compromise) between flexibility, speed of loading and organisation. Enabling and disabling tracks has been the best thing to have come to Cubase in the last 10 years. It truly is a game changer.

Good luck!

 

[Jeremy Spencer]

A project with VEPro would take almost as long because it has to disconnect and reconnect again.



Good luck!

The thing is, it only takes a few seconds to connect (if you leave VEP coupled). The problem with disabling tracks is that you still need to load them when you're auditioning tracks to determine what you need. You probably already know what you're looking for, but I prefer to have everything loaded to I can instantly try out different patches. Plus, VEP takes all of the strain off of my DAW.

 

[JaikumarS]

- New project file for every cue. This way I can make an absolute mess in a single cue, or go crazy with the tempo maps without disturbing any other cues. Any other method leads to pain and suffering. I wind up with 25-30 separate project files for an hour-long television episode and as many as 80 for a five-reel feature film.

- All built from the same template, which hopefully includes 80% of the sounds you're likely to use in the whole film.

- I leave a few empty instrument slots in my template for those one-off / wild card instruments that you want to load as you go and use only in that cue.

- Sometimes I do one of the biggest / most complex / biggest scope cues first, then use that project file as the template.

- I run video on a separate Mac Mini using VideoSlave software, so I can just slip and slide the cues in Logic against that. But in terms of time code, having the video inside Logic itself is no different - adjusting the Project start point just moves the music around relative to the video. The time code counter in Logic will always match the visual time code in the movie if you're doing it right, and the tempo map controls where the music falls relative to that. But if you have or can get a spare Mac, then VideoSlave is an excellent way to go. Check it out here:

https://non-lethal-applications.com/products/video-slave-3

- When the edit changes, no problem. Adjust the timecode / tempo map for each cue that's affected - individually. A time code calculator app can help if things get really complex. A free one is available from the same guy who makes VideoSlave, download it here by signing up to his email list:

https://non-lethal-applications.com/products/timecode-calculator

- VEPro is nice if you're using lots of Kontakt instruments. With "preserve" turned on, the VEPro setup stays the same as you load various cues in your DAW.

- To see the "big picture" I create a separate "whole movie" project in Logic into which I dump rough mixes as I work, and then the final mixes as they are finished. This project is also built from my template, so I can overdub just one string line or whatever on top of a finished set of stems at the last minute and re-bounce if needed without loading up the original cue's project file. (This usually only happens after the movie is on the dub stage and they're asking for just one more little thing to go on top of the stems they're already mixing against.) On bigger projects I use a separate Pro Tools machine to record my stems into - this way the Pro Tools session represents the whole movie (or the whole reel in the case of multi-reel projects) and I can easily hear how the current cue in Logic will overlap with the next / previous cues that are playing from Pro Tools.

Hello Charlie,

May I know how you use the timecode calculator in your workflow when a new edit arrives?

Thank you.

 

[charlieclouser]

Hello Charlie,

May I know how you use the timecode calculator in your workflow when a new edit arrives?

Thank you.

When a new edit arrives, a change log will be sent with it, showing exactly what's been changed from the previous version. If the editor doesn't send a change log, I'd immediately get on the phone to the assistant editor - who's usually the one dealing with logging those changes as well as outputting the video into my desired format. But on every project I've been on they have always sent me a very detailed change log. It would say things like:

- At 02.11.34.12 = extended shot of explosion = added 00.00.03.12

- At 02.12.14.21 = removed Jack's reaction shot = removed 00.00.06.04

- At 02.13.04.21 = extended shot of door by 12 frames, shortened following shot of Jack by 12 frames = no net change.

That's not the exact format, but it's basically the info that's conveyed. Exactly where the beginning of the affected shot is, how much it has been lengthened or shortened, and so forth. If it's just one shot that's been lengthened or shortened, I probably don't need to break out the timecode calculator. But if it's a bunch of shots within a single music cue that have been messed with, then it's just simple math. Add or subtract the amount they specified and move your locked markers, then hammer on the tempo/meter map until stuff lines up again. It's easier if they've messed with stuff where there's no music; then you type in the cue's old start point, add the total amount of added time, and the result will be your new start time. If there's a bunch of changes, you might have to add / subtract them all up to get a single number which can then be added / subtracted from your old cue's start point.

It's possible to do this with a normal calculator or pencil and paper but it will make you lose your mind. Having a timecode calculator that can correctly deal with 24 / 30 frames per second, as well as hours-minutes-seconds makes it so much easier.

But to be fair I've only had to break out the timecode calculator a few times over the last 15 years. I guess I've been lucky, but by the time I'm working on the music the picture is pretty much a lock. Maybe there will be four or five tiny changes before the dub, usually because a digital VFX shot didn't look right and needed to be shorter - something like that. But the horror stories I read on the internet about endlessly-changing picture edits across months and months - that never happens to me. Lucky I guess.

On the tv series I've done it's always, always, always locked before I step in the room - there just isn't time to keep fiddling with the cut when it's going to air in 10 days or less. Any fiddling with the cut just makes life hell for the composer, but way more so for the dialog and effects editors. In 250+ episodes of tv I've probably had less than ten instances where the cut changed after the spotting session, and in most (all?) of those they just said, "Work to the cut you've been working to, and we'll just deal with it on the dub stage as a music edit." Bing, bang, boom, my music editor chops and crossfades and it's dealt with.