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Handling Cues in Film Scoring -Cubase/Logic

jemu999

jemu999

Active Member
So aside from DP's chunk feature, Im curious to know how others are handling multiple film cues in Cubase or Logic? (Don't have time or energy to learn DP)

Im currently using Cubase, and have gotten away unscathed using a single session for all previous film projects. But in my most recent project, things got really messy with changes in edits. In fact, it was a nightmare. (tempo mapping hell!)

Im getting ready to score a feature film and need to figure out a better way that provides flexibility for film edits, but that still allows the ability to see the "big" picture of the score.

Are you guys creating a new project for every cue? What happens when the timecode changes to account for new edits? Are you importing new videos to each and every cue/project? Is VE Pro pretty much a must?

Any insight/tips from power users would be very much appreciated!
Click to read more...
 
- New project file for every cue. This way I can make an absolute mess in a single cue, or go crazy with the tempo maps without disturbing any other cues. Any other method leads to pain and suffering. I wind up with 25-30 separate project files for an hour-long television episode and as many as 80 for a five-reel feature film.

- All built from the same template, which hopefully includes 80% of the sounds you're likely to use in the whole film.

- I leave a few empty instrument slots in my template for those one-off / wild card instruments that you want to load as you go and use only in that cue.

- Sometimes I do one of the biggest / most complex / biggest scope cues first, then use that project file as the template.

- I run video on a separate Mac Mini using VideoSlave software, so I can just slip and slide the cues in Logic against that. But in terms of time code, having the video inside Logic itself is no different - adjusting the Project start point just moves the music around relative to the video. The time code counter in Logic will always match the visual time code in the movie if you're doing it right, and the tempo map controls where the music falls relative to that. But if you have or can get a spare Mac, then VideoSlave is an excellent way to go. Check it out here:

https://non-lethal-applications.com/products/video-slave-3

- When the edit changes, no problem. Adjust the timecode / tempo map for each cue that's affected - individually. A time code calculator app can help if things get really complex. A free one is available from the same guy who makes VideoSlave, download it here by signing up to his email list:

https://non-lethal-applications.com/products/timecode-calculator

- VEPro is nice if you're using lots of Kontakt instruments. With "preserve" turned on, the VEPro setup stays the same as you load various cues in your DAW.

- To see the "big picture" I create a separate "whole movie" project in Logic into which I dump rough mixes as I work, and then the final mixes as they are finished. This project is also built from my template, so I can overdub just one string line or whatever on top of a finished set of stems at the last minute and re-bounce if needed without loading up the original cue's project file. (This usually only happens after the movie is on the dub stage and they're asking for just one more little thing to go on top of the stems they're already mixing against.) On bigger projects I use a separate Pro Tools machine to record my stems into - this way the Pro Tools session represents the whole movie (or the whole reel in the case of multi-reel projects) and I can easily hear how the current cue in Logic will overlap with the next / previous cues that are playing from Pro Tools.
 
I use Logic and the last film I did was one Logic session per reel. The previous one to that was one Logic session per scene.

The next one will be one Logic session per scene again. The one session per reel opened up a whole world of hurt with any edits/changes etc!

I also run one master session per reel and drop the scene bounces into the time line to make sure the flow and feel works. It can be easy to get sucked into a particular scene, so you need to remember the bigger picture continuously.
 
jemu999 said:
So aside from DP's chunk feature, Im curious to know how others are handling multiple film cues in Cubase or Logic? (Don't have time or energy to learn DP)

Im currently using Cubase, and have gotten away unscathed using a single session for all previous film projects. But in my most recent project, things got really messy with changes in edits. In fact, it was a nightmare. (tempo mapping hell!)

Im getting ready to score a feature film and need to figure out a better way that provides flexibility for film edits, but that still allows the ability to see the "big" picture of the score.

Are you guys creating a new project for every cue? What happens when the timecode changes to account for new edits? Are you importing new videos to each and every cue/project? Is VE Pro pretty much a must?

Any insight/tips from power users would be very much appreciated!
Click to expand...

Definitely 1 project for 1 cue. [tempo/meter changes wont effect any other cues in your score.]

Hopefully you will be working with locked edit,if not,re-import the new vid edit into each session as you go [its not a big deal,all your projects are working off the same video file in all the individual projects]
Import the video always in the same start position and move your cue to where it needs to be in the revised edit/timecode etc.then save that new revised project,..see the links below re simple labeling system that will help you with multible versions of cues etc.

I would suggest getting the film in reels if possible,[better for the nerves to work on the score in sections] also quicker re importing/downloading new edits.

You can bounce your cues to audio as you go and import them into a master score session with the full edit of the vid to see/hear how its all playing out.

VE PRO is a game changer especially when you are working with multible projects/sessions on a film score,.theres a 'preserve' function that allows you to open and close multible projects/sessions without having to reload all your instruments/samples each time.So if you build a score template that works for most of your score you can keep the same template loaded as you swap and change projects [make sense?] Look into it.

A few thread links here re cue/reel organisation that might help?

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/reels-scenes-cues-and-timecode.54440/#post-3972634


https://vi-control.net/community/th...gth-film-cue-organisation.57873/#post-4028445
 
Last edited:
charlieclouser said:
- New project file for every cue. This way I can make an absolute mess in a single cue, or go crazy with the tempo maps without disturbing any other cues. Any other method leads to pain and suffering. I wind up with 25-30 separate project files for an hour-long television episode and as many as 80 for a five-reel feature film.

- All built from the same template, which hopefully includes 80% of the sounds you're likely to use in the whole film.

- I leave a few empty instrument slots in my template for those one-off / wild card instruments that you want to load as you go and use only in that cue.

- Sometimes I do one of the biggest / most complex / biggest scope cues first, then use that project file as the template.

- I run video on a separate Mac Mini using VideoSlave software, so I can just slip and slide the cues in Logic against that. But in terms of time code, having the video inside Logic itself is no different - adjusting the Project start point just moves the music around relative to the video. The time code counter in Logic will always match the visual time code in the movie if you're doing it right, and the tempo map controls where the music falls relative to that. But if you have or can get a spare Mac, then VideoSlave is an excellent way to go. Check it out here:

https://non-lethal-applications.com/products/video-slave-3

- When the edit changes, no problem. Adjust the timecode / tempo map for each cue that's affected - individually. A time code calculator app can help if things get really complex. A free one is available from the same guy who makes VideoSlave, download it here by signing up to his email list:

https://non-lethal-applications.com/products/timecode-calculator

- VEPro is nice if you're using lots of Kontakt instruments. With "preserve" turned on, the VEPro setup stays the same as you load various cues in your DAW.

- To see the "big picture" I create a separate "whole movie" project in Logic into which I dump rough mixes as I work, and then the final mixes as they are finished. This project is also built from my template, so I can overdub just one string line or whatever on top of a finished set of stems at the last minute and re-bounce if needed without loading up the original cue's project file. (This usually only happens after the movie is on the dub stage and they're asking for just one more little thing to go on top of the stems they're already mixing against.) On bigger projects I use a separate Pro Tools machine to record my stems into - this way the Pro Tools session represents the whole movie (or the whole reel in the case of multi-reel projects) and I can easily hear how the current cue in Logic will overlap with the next / previous cues that are playing from Pro Tools.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much Charlie. You have shared some excellent tips! I appreciate it. In fact I want to thank everyone. Definitely going to 1 project per cue.
 
But with all due respect to my friend Charlie, don't overlook Logic Pro X's Project Alternatives feature when dealing with cues that are largely the same but with different timings. It is very helpful.
 
charlieclouser said:
- VEPro is nice if you're using lots of Kontakt instruments. With "preserve" turned on, the VEPro setup stays the same as you load various cues in your DAW.
Click to expand...

Dean said:
VE PRO is a game changer especially when you are working with multible projects/sessions on a film score,.theres a 'preserve' function that allows you to open and close multible projects/sessions without having to reload all your instruments/samples each time.
Click to expand...

I've never understood why you would want to use Preserve because if you want to change the mix balance of say mic positions on an instrument it doesn't maintain.

For example...

Cue 1
You decide the track needs to be more intimate so you use close mics on the Violas.

With that preserved state of close mics you now move on to Cue 2.

Cue 2
This is a bigger action scene that followed the intimate scene so now you need more room mics of the Violas. You slide the room mics up.

Now you go back to Cue 1 and the settings for Cue 2 have been preserved and now you've lost your intimate sound.

Isn't this the essence of Preserved? Maybe I've misunderstood/misused Preserve.
 
ryanstrong said:
I've never understood why you would want to use Preserve because if you want to change the mix balance of say mic positions on an instrument it doesn't maintain.

For example...

Cue 1
You decide the track needs to be more intimate so you use close mics on the Violas.

With that preserved state of close mics you now move on to Cue 2.

Cue 2
This is a bigger action scene that followed the intimate scene so now you need more room mics of the Violas. You slide the room mics up.

Now you go back to Cue 1 and the settings for Cue 2 have been preserved and now you've lost your intimate sound.

Isn't this the essence of Preserved? Maybe I've misunderstood/misused Preserve.
Click to expand...

This is why you need different templates for different music. When I want to turn from lush to intimate I am far more likely to use other libraries that n to change mic positions.
 
I'm doing a film now, by reels, and it's been horrible so the next time will be scene by scene. Curious though... let's say you dig something you wrote in an earlier scene and would like to bring it back later... what is the best way to access that midi data? Just copy from the old session and paste in the new session? This is the one advantage of working by reels is that its very easy to go back and pick out some previous work.

What do you think think?
 
eschroder said:
I'm doing a film now, by reels, and it's been horrible so the next time will be scene by scene. Curious though... let's say you dig something you wrote in an earlier scene and would like to bring it back later... what is the best way to access that midi data? Just copy from the old session and paste in the new session? This is the one advantage of working by reels is that its very easy to go back and pick out some previous work.

What do you think think?
Click to expand...


Logic, like Pro Tools, has an Import feature where you can import exactly what you choose: channel strips, content, global info like tempo, keys, etc.
 
ryanstrong said:
I've never understood why you would want to use Preserve because if you want to change the mix balance of say mic positions on an instrument it doesn't maintain.

For example...

Cue 1
You decide the track needs to be more intimate so you use close mics on the Violas.

With that preserved state of close mics you now move on to Cue 2.

Cue 2
This is a bigger action scene that followed the intimate scene so now you need more room mics of the Violas. You slide the room mics up.

Now you go back to Cue 1 and the settings for Cue 2 have been preserved and now you've lost your intimate sound.

Isn't this the essence of Preserved? Maybe I've misunderstood/misused Preserve.
Click to expand...

Disclaimer: I rarely use VEPro - only in emergencies where I need a rack of legato cello patches to choose between and layer on the fly across dozens of cues, but....

Isn't the situation you're referring to caused by using Preserve AND Decouple? I thought it worked like this:

Preserve = contents of VEPro are not unloaded / reloaded when switching cues, but all front panel settings of the plugin are polled and saved with the individual DAW projects, and then pushed to VEPro when a new DAW project is loaded.

If Preserve is ON, then you can then, optionally, ALSO select Decouple. Preserve AND Decouple = as before, the contents of VEPro are not unloaded / reloaded when switching cues, but now the front panel settings of the plugin are NOT polled and saved with individual DAW projects, and when loading a new DAW project no front panel settings are pushed to the VEPro setup?

So Preserve ON and Decouple OFF = samples stay loaded but front panel settings of all VEPro instruments can be unique per cue. Preserve ON and Decouple ON = samples stay loaded and front panel settings stay untouched as various cues are loaded.

Am I understanding this wrong? Come on Jay, set us straight!
 
I do cues in Cubase and master session in Nuendo (or Pro Tools although I can't do surround as I don't have HD) both running on the same computer. You can run multiple instances of Cubase if they're different versions (like 7 and 8) but then you need to have a license from 7 that was upgraded to 8.

The Video Slave seems to be a great alternative and even lets you import all your stems. It's what I'd be using but I'm on PC so I just use Nuendo for the master session (it's also just as expensive as buying another DAW).

One of the composers I normally work with just does it all in 1 session and hasn't had issues but he doesn't get many new cuts. As soon as you do or need to make major changes to a cue, all bets are off and things can easily become a mess.

One great thing about using separate cue sessions is that when you have edits earlier in the picture but none during a cue, all you have to do is reset the start time to the new location. No need to mess with tempos or adding time to get it to line up with the new start time.
 
ryanstrong said:
Quickly vs. loosing my entire mix and instrument settings per cue? No thank you.
Click to expand...

As long as you write it in midi you don't lose anything. I just use midi blips to reset my template when opened. If I want to change something I just write it in and when it opens, it updates to that. Lately I have been creating metaframes for different projects but it's just because I've been using a modular template and need certain things loaded/unloaded. If I want to make radical changes to a patch then I just load it in Cubase.
 
Yea
charlieclouser said:
Disclaimer: I rarely use VEPro - only in emergencies where I need a rack of legato cello patches to choose between and layer on the fly across dozens of cues, but....

Isn't the situation you're referring to caused by using Preserve AND Decouple? I thought it worked like this:

Preserve = contents of VEPro are not unloaded / reloaded when switching cues, but all front panel settings of the plugin are polled and saved with the individual DAW projects, and then pushed to VEPro when a new DAW project is loaded.

If Preserve is ON, then you can then, optionally, ALSO select Decouple. Preserve AND Decouple = as before, the contents of VEPro are not unloaded / reloaded when switching cues, but now the front panel settings of the plugin are NOT polled and saved with individual DAW projects, and when loading a new DAW project no front panel settings are pushed to the VEPro setup?

So Preserve ON and Decouple OFF = samples stay loaded but front panel settings of all VEPro instruments can be unique per cue. Preserve ON and Decouple ON = samples stay loaded and front panel settings stay untouched as various cues are loaded.

Am I understanding this wrong? Come on Jay, set us straight!
Click to expand...
I believe that is correct, if decoupled is off then the plugin settings for that instance are saved with the project. So you could decouple your VEPro instance if you make changes to mic levels/etc. and those settings will be pushed to VEPro upon reloading the project.
 
charlieclouser said:
Disclaimer: I rarely use VEPro - only in emergencies where I need a rack of legato cello patches to choose between and layer on the fly across dozens of cues, but....

Isn't the situation you're referring to caused by using Preserve AND Decouple? I thought it worked like this:

Preserve = contents of VEPro are not unloaded / reloaded when switching cues, but all front panel settings of the plugin are polled and saved with the individual DAW projects, and then pushed to VEPro when a new DAW project is loaded.

If Preserve is ON, then you can then, optionally, ALSO select Decouple. Preserve AND Decouple = as before, the contents of VEPro are not unloaded / reloaded when switching cues, but now the front panel settings of the plugin are NOT polled and saved with individual DAW projects, and when loading a new DAW project no front panel settings are pushed to the VEPro setup?

So Preserve ON and Decouple OFF = samples stay loaded but front panel settings of all VEPro instruments can be unique per cue. Preserve ON and Decouple ON = samples stay loaded and front panel settings stay untouched as various cues are loaded.

Am I understanding this wrong? Come on Jay, set us straight!
Click to expand...

Totally correct, Charlie. Preserve just means it does not disappear when unconnected. Decouple means that you load your VE Pro template and if your Logic template was saved, it automatically connects to a loaded VE Pro template, Coupled means it will populate an empty VE Pro server project, which sounds like a good idea, but it creates more problems than it solves.
 
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