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Blown away by Berlin Strings (Kontakt-version)

Henrik B. Jensen said:
I did crossgrade. It was free so why not :)

I’m undecided about which version to use, Kontakt or SINE.

I really appreciate the familiarity I have with Kontakt after years of use. But SINE has mic merge. Add to that the recent update of Berlin Strings which was SINE only.
Click to expand...
Somethings to consider:

1. Sine, your project file size will be much smaller (it doesn't store the actual patches, just a reference to the patch), loading, saving much quicker.
2. Sine, any future updates to sine will be applied to existing projects (see point 1 - Kontakt stores the actual patch in the project file, so it doesn't update when the library updates). This is both a good and bad thing, depending on your perspective, and what the update does.
3. Once you have built a good template or track templates etc, you hopefully shouldn't need to open the kontakt or sine again, except if you want to change mic mix - and even that, you could just have all mics on all the time and route them out to faders in your template, and link them all together, thus changing mix of all instruments jointly, which I keep thinking about doing in my template.
 
Two quick questions, since I only have the first violins in SINE. Is the attack in the spiccatos weirdly cut in the Kontakt version as well (it's like a bit of the attack has been cut off)? And is it only in first violins or is it the same in all sections? I have started using the spiccato serial and the triplets patches instead for spiccato.
 
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syrinx said:
Two quick questions, since I only have the first violins in SINE. Is the attack in the spiccatos weirdly cut in the Kontakt version as well (it's like a bit of the attack has been cut off)? And is it only in first violins or is it the same in all sections? I have started using the spiccato serial and the triples patches instead for spiccato.
Click to expand...
Check your Env tab for spicattos - make sure the white circle on the left is fully up as far as it can go, adn the yellow lollipop on the left is as far left as it can go.
 
The easiest way to deal with a Sine instance hosting multiple channels belonging to one big instrument in Logic is to copy the incoming CC to all relevant channels using a MIDI Script.

The script below does that. It takes ALL incoming CC duplicates to different MIDI channels. All you need to do is copy this into Scripter and hit "Run Script". Some mentioned that it's not ideal from an editing perspective, and I agree. But at least you can work more fluently:

Code: 
/*
Copyright 2023 Babylonwaves // Version 1.0
*/

function HandleMIDI(event) {
    event.send(); // send original MIDI data out again

    if (event instanceof ControlChange) {
           
              event.channel = 2; // dupicate CC to channel 2 and send it
              event.send();
             
              event.channel = 3; // dupicate CC to channel 3 and send it
              event.send();

              event.channel = 4; // dupicate CC to channel 4 and send it
              event.send();
    }
}
 
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Paul@Sydney said:
Check your Env tab for spicattos - make sure the white circle on the left is fully up as far as it can go, adn the yellow lollipop on the left is as far left as it can go.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the suggestion. I tried it but unfortunately I can't hear much difference.
I did some more tweaking and weirdly I find it's mostly the mf layer. Disabling it (so I'm only using p, mp and ff) gels much better with me. Using Soft Low Layer helps a bit too, but I find it's still too easy to trigger a spiccato that "digs in" too much.

I love the fact that we are able to tweak stuff like this in SINE.

As I wrote in the last post, I find the spiccato serial and triplets useful (the triplets are perfect when you want something longer than spiccato but shorter than the staccatos).

Anyway, do the spiccatos of the other sections have the same "style"? Also, are the Kontakt versions the same? @Henrik B. Jensen, you were only using the longer staccatos in your noodles, right?
 
syrinx said:
Two quick questions, since I only have the first violins in SINE. Is the attack in the spiccatos weirdly cut in the Kontakt version as well (it's like a bit of the attack has been cut off)? And is it only in first violins or is it the same in all sections? I have started using the spiccato serial and the triplets patches instead for spiccato.
Click to expand...
V I spiccato sounds like this in the Kontakt version:
View attachment Berlin Strings Kontakt - Spiccato test - hbj1.mp3

Is it different in the SINE version?
 
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SimonCharlesHanna said:
Yo this is my memory from like 5 years ago but im pretty sure that particular patch isn't cycling through RRs unless you check or toggle an option. I cant recall exactly.

Something like new note resets RR or something. Basically playing more than 1 note keeps resetting the RR to 1
Click to expand...
Thank you, Simon, you are right! Random rr was off and that's default.

Here it is again with random rr switched on:
View attachment Berlin Strings Kontakt - Spiccato test - hbj1-01.mp3
 
Henrik B. Jensen said:
Thank you, Simon, you are right! Random rr was off and that's default.

Here it is again with random rr switched on:
View attachment Berlin Strings Kontakt - Spiccato test - hbj1-01.mp3
Click to expand...
I'm able to recreate your example more or less, as long as I make sure not to trigger any mf samples. Sounds like you're using the mp layer which sounds great in the SINE version. The weird "clicky" attacks occur mostly in mf and in the higher ranges, and just on a few notes.

Here's two I found just now . I've felt like there were more notes but maybe it's just these two that sticks out like a sore thumb.

They're in the mf layer.
Notes: C4 RR no. 6, and A4 RR no. 4 and 6 (no. 4 is better but it stands out compared to other notes).

View attachment berlin strings notes.mp3

It's not like I'm going through all my sample libraries like this like a crazy person, it's just that this thing stuck out to me (maybe I noodle too much in A minor?). I also feel like the mf layer sounds more like a forte layer, so I kind of wish it was higher up in the velocity range (don't know if the velocity distribution is the same for Kontakt).

Here's the A4 compared to surrounding notes for "context" (this is only using mf layer and RR 4 and 6 for all notes):
View attachment berlin strings notes2.mp3

This nitpicking is not meant as some kind of "omg this library sucks" (I think we all have scars from that thread). All libraries have small issues like this. I'm just wondering if it's there in the Kontakt version and/or SINE versions of the other sections. :)

Disabling mf layer and noodling a bit, they can sound really good:
View attachment berlin strings notes3.mp3

In the end, between these, the spiccato serial and the triplets (and the longer staccatos) there's a lot of articulations to choose from for any specific context.
 
babylonwaves said:
The easiest way to deal with a Sine instance hosting multiple channels belonging to one big instrument in Logic is to copy the incoming CC to all relevant channels using a MIDI Script.

The script below does that. It takes ALL incoming CC duplicates to different MIDI channels. All you need to do is copy this into Scripter and hit "Run Script". Some mentioned that it's not ideal from an editing perspective, and I agree. But at least you can work more fluently:

Code: 
/*
Copyright 2023 Babylonwaves // Version 1.0
*/

function HandleMIDI(event) {
    event.send(); // send original MIDI data out again

    if (event instanceof ControlChange) {
           
              event.channel = 2; // dupicate CC to channel 2 and send it
              event.send();
             
              event.channel = 3; // dupicate CC to channel 3 and send it
              event.send();

              event.channel = 4; // dupicate CC to channel 4 and send it
              event.send();
    }
}
Click to expand...
The problem with these sorts of solutions, which is what I use when I have to do it, is that Logic insists on recording the automation with the midi channel of the selected articulation in the articulation set. Though Logic will show and allow you to write automation to “any channel” there seems to be no way to get it to default to writing it that way so long as you are assigning articulations to midi channels. So you inevitably end up with situations of, say, modwheel data on multiple channels and the conflicts that then arise when you try to convert them with this sort of script. It’s not unworkable but it still presents lots of frictions.
 
syrinx said:
I'm able to recreate your example more or less, as long as I make sure not to trigger any mf samples. Sounds like you're using the mp layer which sounds great in the SINE version. The weird "clicky" attacks occur mostly in mf and in the higher ranges, and just on a few notes.

Here's two I found just now . I've felt like there were more notes but maybe it's just these two that sticks out like a sore thumb.

They're in the mf layer.
Notes: C4 RR no. 6, and A4 RR no. 4 and 6 (no. 4 is better but it stands out compared to other notes).

View attachment berlin strings notes.mp3

It's not like I'm going through all my sample libraries like this like a crazy person, it's just that this thing stuck out to me (maybe I noodle too much in A minor?). I also feel like the mf layer sounds more like a forte layer, so I kind of wish it was higher up in the velocity range (don't know if the velocity distribution is the same for Kontakt).

Here's the A4 compared to surrounding notes for "context" (this is only using mf layer and RR 4 and 6 for all notes):
View attachment berlin strings notes2.mp3

This nitpicking is not meant as some kind of "omg this library sucks" (I think we all have scars from that thread). All libraries have small issues like this. I'm just wondering if it's there in the Kontakt version and/or SINE versions of the other sections. :)

Disabling mf layer and noodling a bit, they can sound really good:
View attachment berlin strings notes3.mp3

In the end, between these, the spiccato serial and the triplets (and the longer staccatos) there's a lot of articulations to choose from for any specific context.
Click to expand...
If you want, you can upload some MIDI. Then I'll upload a MP3 of how it sounds in Kontakt :)
 
Henrik B. Jensen said:
If you want, you can upload some MIDI. Then I'll upload a MP3 of how it sounds in Kontakt :)
Click to expand...
Thanks for the offer.

Here's an example where I deliberately made sure the RR with the "clicky" A4's trigger in the first loop, and then they are shifted (since the loop doesn't coincide with a new RR cycle). The second cycle avoids that RR so it sounds better. I used only the Tree mic here and didn't put it through any processing. And to be clear (for future readers coming in here), this is the SINE version. :)

View attachment bs-violin-spicc-example.mp3

The MIDI is attached as below.
 

Attachments

  • bs-violin-spicc-example.mid
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Monkberry said:
After seeing the NI sale for Berlin Strings, I started revisiting all the YouTube reviews to see if these were still relavent compared with current options. With all the Native Access drama happening, I wasn't inclined to pull the trigger but a few of the vi-c members posted that OT was granting a free crossgrade to the SINE version so I pulled the trigger. I have to say, I love the sound of Teldex Scoring Stage with this library. I ended up buying their entire bundle, of which OT offered a discount for. No regrets. These share my top spot along with SA Chamber Strings Pro. It's good to see that people who bought these earlier still love the library.
Click to expand...
Caved on this point today.

Currently downloading! How do we go about the crossgrade as when I've tried to use the Key I got from NI it's invalid. So do I just message OT with it?

All the OT stuff I got is on Sine already so this is a first for me.
 
TheNashJMusic said:
Caved on this point today.

Currently downloading! How do we go about the crossgrade as when I've tried to use the Key I got from NI it's invalid. So do I just message OT with it?

All the OT stuff I got is on Sine already so this is a first for me.
Click to expand...
If you go to www.orchestraltools.com and scroll all the way to the bottom there's a Contact menu item.

Click on that, fill in the form (name, e-mail, subject, msg)

Then OT gets back to you asking for invoice, mail them a copy, they manually assign the Kontakt stuff to your OT account.

After this, download latest version of Native Access. Then finally you can download your new library / libraries :)

PS. Invoice may take a little while to get to you from NI. First you get an order confirmation, then waaaaaait, then invoice arrives much later :)
 
TheNashJMusic said:
Caved on this point today.

Currently downloading! How do we go about the crossgrade as when I've tried to use the Key I got from NI it's invalid. So do I just message OT with it?

All the OT stuff I got is on Sine already so this is a first for me.
Click to expand...
OT support was pretty fast for me. As Henrik described, I waited for the NI invoice and attached it to the email to OT support requesting the free crossgrade. A fellow named Gerard form OT took care of everything and sent an email when it was in my account and ready to use.
 
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