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muk said:
Also, I strongly disagree with your implicit notion that both sides are equally to blame.
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Could you quote me on that?

All I said was, mind you I never saw the initial post that started it all, but I was hoping for a sincere apology, and that would of been the end of it, and we talk about his piece. I couldn't of anticipated more outbursts. Don't give the impression I want to protect him at all cost, I said he will now have to deal with the consequences following his later reactions.
 
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BlackDorito said:
If we were face to face, this sub-forum would be somewhat like a grad school music seminar where we are listening and critiquing. The critiquing would undoubtedly be more diplomatic when you are eyeball to eyeball.

Some people instead might imagine that this is more like a salon performance, with some educated listeners. The listeners that wanted to be encouraging would clap loudly, and the ones that were not moved might not clap at all. If the the performers stood up and said "The clapping isn't loud enough!" some listeners might be offended.
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?

My point was that, and I said it earlier, there's a right balance. Look, I've had some pretty good teachers and well respected names, and wheteher it was face to face or written on paper, it was never expressed as what we saw on this thread, and they all contributed to me improving. Once again 2 wrongs don't make a right, William behaved like an idiot, but he should of been told this independently from his work. Let's be honest here, some users used his piece to get back at him, and I'm pretty sure the triggered anger, especially from re-peat was used to demolish his work and somehow felt it was his duty to put William back at his place. This is what I didn't appreciate. It would of been better to let a moderator deal with William's behaviour, independently from his musical work.
 
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re-peat said:
For some reason, I honestly don't know why (although I have a few ideas), this craving seems to be particularly strong among American composers and musicians (although it occurs in all other continents as well, obviously.)
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Being an American I can totally agree with what you're saying to some extent. I do believe it is more prevalent with certain age groups or "generations". I work with and socialize with quite a few people who are part of the "millenial" generation. I've never witnessed a more entitled group of people. This is in no way representative of 100% of the people in that classification, but in my experience it definitely defines the majority. Most of these "kids" grew up with bedroom walls full of participation trophies and being told that everything they do is "awesome" and "great" and "you're an amazing person" by everybody they know. The unfortunate truth is when these "kids" get older and are in the real world they have no idea how to handle or to react to being told they are wrong or to negative criticism. I'm sure this happens elsewhere as well, but it's unfortunate that life lessons aren't taught before entering the "real world".
 
Guy Bacos said:
I said he will now have to deal with the consequences following his later reactions.
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That you did. And then you came back and wrote this:

Guy Bacos said:
I'd be curious if everyone in this thread, if they'd have to say what they wrote face to face with the person concerned, including William, would they express themselves the same way?
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And that reads very apologetic to me. The word 'everyone' does include both sides. And to me that does implicitly excuse his behaviour, as it reads like the other side is to blame as well.

What actually happened from my point of view is that I posted a mild and polite critic of the piece that was meant to be constructive. What followed was a suada of personal insults. And in that context your post does read very apologetic.
 
muk said:
That you did. And then you came back and wrote this:



And that reads very apologetic to me. The word 'everyone' does include both sides. And to me that does implicitly excuse his behaviour, as it reads like the other side is to blame as well.

What actually happened from my point of view is that I posted a mild and polite critic of the piece that was meant to be constructive. What followed was a suada of personal insults. And in that context your post does read very apologetic.
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Not sure if you read my previous post, but I fear I'm just repeating myself. William was in the wrong, and his behaviousr was uncalled for, a mod should of taken action... but using his piece to trash him and teach him a lesson on his inapropriate behaviour, and you may not agree, but that's my opinion, was also wrong. And to me, this is a perfect example of 2 wrongs don't make a right. Following that, William dug himself into a grave, that's where I couldn't defend him anymore.
 
bzyboy said:
The unfortunate truth is when these "kids" get older and are in the real world they have no idea how to handle or to react to being told they are wrong or to negative criticism.
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I'm not sure if this discussion would be a prime example of grown up adults raised on a mindset of a different age handling that area better... ;)
 
Guys.... @Guy Bacos is correct.

"bored stiff"

"an ordeal"

"merciless tedium"

"no joy, no true musical excitement, not a single moment of thought-provoking inventiveness"

"wallows in its own seriousness"

"yawn" worthy

"begs desperately for applause"

"banal, bombastic, vulgar"

"pseudo-emotion"

"a second-rate composer" would "be embarrassed"

"has nothing to say"

"weak and flimsy"

"no inspiration"

"pathetically disappointing"

"dull, bland, forgettable"

shortening it would be "an act of kindness"

"not even the slightest possibility for joy or enjoyment"

"pretentious"

"a drag... a waste of time"

"depressing, dreary, self-indulgent and rather pretentious seriousness from the first second to the last"

and what he considered, I suppose, a masterful finishing blow -

"an experience that an audience will sit through with numbing resignation, and when they applaud its ending, which they will because protocol instructs them to, that applause is first of all a release of eagerly awaited relief and, secondly, these people applaud mostly themselves, and deservedly so, for having mustered the stamina and perseverance required to sit the whole thing out, silently suffering, without having lost their good manners."

Read these in isolation and tell me again that Piet's post qualifies as "feedback."

Regardless of what William wrote in his deleted/revised post, there's not one line in @re-peat 's reply to him that suggests how to improve the piece or write better music next time.

To @BlackDorito 's point.... None of this is the kind of critical feedback I'd expect from my composition professor in a class or from my peers in a seminar or salon setting. Instead what it is a person exerting his vocabulary to the utmost to toe right up to the line of outright flaming. Surrounding the above comments with a bunch of "I'm sorry to say, but" (sure you are, Piet) and "I hope I can say this without causing upset" (oh, surely that wouldn't be your intention, Piet) doesn't change what this post is.

I studied with Ira Newborn (scored a buncha John Hughes films). He could be very harsh on student's work. But at least when he thought a piece was banal and stilted he would say it in two words instead of five hundred and then show me how to fix it.
 
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That post came to be after our fine William had insulted the whole forum as musical no-nothings for not giving him the adoration he feels entitled to. If you are excusing him for personal insults, then certainly you have to excuse this post which may insult the music, but not the person. And I wrote nothing of the sort. In fact I wrote something not too dissimilar to your own critique. Yet I was treated to the same inane tourette and personal insults. In my opinion his behaviour is inexcusable. All the more so since he made exactly the same poor show of himself on the VSL board. In my opinion this forum would be better off without this troll.
 
I'd just like to add that as a composer that gave up a career to purposely devote myself full-time to composition, for little or no financial reward, I find great joy in sharing my music with others, and hope that it connects with listeners. When I get feedback, I appreciate it, even if it is not positive. The reality is, we all want to belong...we all want to feel like our work has meaning, and is appreciated. Absent financial rewards/fame/career advancement, all a composer has is the moment in which they write their music, and the inevitable moment where they share it with others. The composer can control the creative process, and find joy in their work once completed, but they have no power over how those that hear it, will receive it.

Had I received such a scathing review from an obviously learned individual like re-peat, I would likely have questioned the very reason I chose to compose in the first place. With malice, he brought forth some of the most hyper-critical, insensitive, demeaning, demoralizing, defacing comments I've ever read.

Just imagine, the time invested in the entire project; a project done purely for the love of writing music. Is there any other endeavour on earth, where one can take the sum of 40 plus years of experience, pour their heart in to a project of such a large scale that takes weeks/months to complete, share it freely with others that also do the same thing, and then face an onslaught of hate?

I get it: "William started it." That is true. His inability to control his emotions led to some unwarranted comments. He absolutely is to be blamed for those comments. But, I would suggest that the responses that followed were not proportional. They were of a level of spitefulness and vindictiveness that were purposefully designed to humiliate and denigrate a fellow human being.

I recently completed a chamber piece called "When Doubt Arises." I wrote the following description to accompany the work. It, in my mind, suggests why such a thread has been so harmful, not only to the original poster, but those of us that struggle every day to believe in our art. Let's put an end to this thread, and go forward with a kind word for a fellow composer. If you don't find any meaning in someone's work, just pass on by quietly. Seriously, let's use our talent to elevate our fellow musicians. Offer a compliment, or a well-intentioned criticism. But stop with the over-the-top displays of intellectual superiority.

When Doubt Arises:

Being a creative brings with it triumphant elation and demoralizing despair. When Doubt Arises for clarinet, piano, violin, and cello is a 2 movement work that seeks to explore the multitude of emotions experienced in the pursuit of artistic excellence. As a composer, during the writing process, I have gone from brimming with confidence in the opening twelve measures, to a feeling of helplessness a few measures later. The constant cycle of emotions is a natural part of the process, but it is never easy to cope with. The best solution I’ve found is to plough forward, always writing, always attempting to create something with meaning, while drowning out the noise of trepidation and uncertainty. Usually, by the end of the process, I feel confident that I’ve achieved my goal and that I’ll have vanquished the demon of doubt from my mind…until the next piece begins.

Dave
 
I think y'all are pouring gasoline on the fire that will forge "Here's my latest piece, you morons!" into the new meme that will soon be infesting the member compositions section, just like N has found its way into many other threads. It all starts as a joke...

Jokes aside, where do you take the time to keep this thread still going???
 
NoamL said:
Guys.... @Guy Bacos is correct.
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I don't think he is, Noam. First of all, Guy suggests that my words were written in anger, which is not true at all. Some mild annoyance at first, yes, but anger? Not a sprinkle. (Guy should know actually, cause when I do write in anger — something which he has been witness to, and even the recipient of, in the very distant past — my language and message are entirely different, in a most unpleasant way, from what I've been contributing here.) Come to think of it, except for one febrile moment during the Spitfire Studio Series discussions, I haven't written anything in anger since, well, I can't remember actually, but it's certainly been a few years.

Guy also insists, for some reason, that I've been taking things personally. Again: totally wrong observation. (And Guy knows it of course, it's just that it's inconvenient for him to admit to it.) Apart from the fact that 15 years at V.I., and carrying on the way I have, tends to strengthen one's dermisses a bit, there is nothing here that I could ever have taken personally. It needs more than a bit of clumsy sarcasm or the odd feeble insult for me to start taking things personally, I can assure you.
The only thing that really got to me, if you must know, was Greg's vile attempt at derailing Romy. That rankled a bit, yes. Firstly, because it was such a despicable manoeuvre, and secondly, and much more disappointingly, because I never expected such a thing from Greg. For me, one of the sadder experiences at V.I. in many a year.

Guy also misreads my words entirely when he says that I used Mr. Kersten's piece "to get back at him". I didn't do anything of the sort. I merely got acquainted with the music (and rather more thoroughly than giving it the 8 minutes you deemed it worthy of), gave my honest opinion about it — an opinion which I would write again tomorrow and not change a single word —, and I also said that, still in my strictly personal opinion, its quality (or better: absence thereof) didn't justify in any way the Pomp And Kerstenstance with which it was introduced to us.

I will admit though — it would be paltering with the truth to deny it — that I would have phrased certain things differently if the work had been presented to us with a modicum of humility. My private opinion about it would have been exactly the same, but I would have written it down wearing the velvet glove rather than revealing the naked iron fist. (If, that is, I decided to write anything down at all, because, as I said before, my first reaction was to stay out of this thread altogether.)

And that the OP's personality rubbed me the wrong way is something I would think I don't have to explain or apologize for. If you ask around, you'll find I'm not alone. Forums are littered with people who feel the exact same way. Mr. Kersten appears to be a wrong-way-rubber extraordinaire. Wouldn't wanna have to feed all the wrong-way-rubbed, is what I'm saying.

By the way, Noam, you do realize, I hope, that selectively quoting from what I wrote, presenting those quotes without context and omitting to include what led up to them — you never even read what led up to them, it appears — , is a rather unfair and unbalanced representation of my thoughts on the matter.

And there seems to be more that you either haven't read or read inattentively, otherwise you wouldn't have put that comment about me not offering any helpful advice in bold yellow type. As I explained before: the OP made it very clear early on that he wasn't interested in any of that. He descended from the Reno Heavens upon us to grant us — poor salieris who suffer from rigor zimmeris — the opportunity to bask in the glowing beauty of His Music. And he expected nothing but glowing reviews — no advice, no suggestions, a certainly no criticism — in return. That was the idea.

And then the thing started which Whitewasteland summed up so admirably on the previous page of this thread.

Look, you may keep pointing at me as the torpedo responsible for its demise all you want, but if the USS Kersten has been making fatal amounts of water, it's got only its captain to blame. No one else.

_
 
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re-peat said:
The only thing that really got to me, if you must know, was Greg's vile attempt at derailing Romy. That rankled a bit, yes. Firstly, because it was such a despicable manoeuvre, and secondly, and much more disappointingly, because I never expected such a thing from Greg. For me, one of the sadder experiences at V.I. in many a year.
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Piet, my post was in no way disparaging Romy, that is purely your assumption and interpretation. I simply posted a link to Romy's work (and I did search for the best example I could find) and that put her comments in perspective for myself. I left it for others to make their own decision. I did in fact find her educational links quite interesting though and I respect her work in this area. I'm sorry to disappoint you that I'm no Saint, though I'm tickled that you had that impression.

The fact that you've brought this up several times already makes me wonder what your true intent is other than to push buttons for a response. I do not wish ill upon you nor Romy, nor will I fall for the trigger bait. You're repeating your points over and over. So what would you like to do in this situation? You clearly didn't like William's comments so now what? Are you waiting for a public lynching or trying to inspire one? Maybe humiliate him to the point of destructive consequences? Seriously Re-peat, there's a point where it makes sense to let go and pushing beyond that point is extremely destructive.

If you want to know what one of the sadder experiences on vi is for me, its watching so many talented people argue and fight with each other rather than discussing the common thread of music. You'd think the politics of the world would make us woke enough not to waste our time in a similar manner but rather focus and move forward with things that we value and feel are important. If you don't like what someone else is doing or saying, why not move on after making your position known? While it may be entertaining for some to read your witty attacks on others, its truly a sad use of your time and talent. While I respect your musicianship, I don't respect when you're repeatedly making harmful and hurtful attacks upon others seemingly for the purpose of triggering their buttons to elicit destructive responses. This is exactly how Keith Emerson ended his life, he was pressured simply by seemingly innocuous internet comments and criticism that endlessly rang in his ears until the point of pulling the trigger. They were only words, how bad can they be? Enough is enough. Lets just assume I'm wrong on all of this (my bad) and give you the benefit of doubt. Hopefully we can all move on toward more constructive pursuits rather than wasting more valuable time.
 
Sorry, Greg, for starters, there was no need whatsoever to go tracking down some of Rowy's music and post a link to it. Without even asking the composer's permission. I mean, why? And that you just happened to pick a lightweight neo-classical excercise, rather than something more substantial, wasn't speaking in your favour either. Worst of all though, it was the nasty, derisive way in which you introduced the music: "no need for comments, buf if you do, please be kind" ...
All of which completely disproves your explanation today that the manoeuvre was intended for innocent private enlightment only. In short: I don't buy it.
(And I've only brought this up once before today, by the way, not 'several times already'.)

But that I find myself back in this thread and obliged to say one or two things which I touched upon already, is simply because of the chronic misunderstanding, willful misinterpretation or sneaky misrepresentaton of what I said before. Surely, after Guy's and Noam's recent posts — stirring things up again for god knows what reason —, one is entitled a few more words? So, please, be a bit less myopic when pointing at people who "can't let things go". Trust me, I wished the thread had come to a halt after Whitewasteland's summary of it — would have been a nice ending to what I, for one, still think has been a worthwile and educational journey —, but it didn't. Not of my doing, as any impartial observer will agree with.

And finally: I believe I can, and I'm certain I always will, decide for myself what is the best use of my time and talent, thank-you-very-much.

_
 
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re-peat said:
I will admit though — it would be paltering with the truth to deny it — that I would have phrased certain things differently if the work had been presented to us with a modicum of humility. My private opinion about it would have been exactly the same, but I would have written it down wearing the velvet glove rather than revealing the naked iron fist.
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Aside from the fact that's possibly the most pompous thing I've ever read on VI control, is that seriously your argument, Piet? That he was nasty first so you had justification to be nasty also? That's something I have to tell my children off for.

Look - I read William's initial rant as it was published. Yes, it wasn't pleasant or clever *but* it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. It wasn't personal. Your followups however, were. They were vindictive and quite frankly, borderline bullying.

There's no "wilful misinterpretation or sneaky misrepresentation" of your words going on here. Despite the fact that William has edited his previous posts, even without a shred of context it's clear what you were saying. It helped no-one and was explicitly designed to be destructive.

You consider yourself a senior member and longstanding member of the forum? Act like it and set an example.
 
synergy543 said:
Piet, my post was in no way disparaging Romy, that is purely your assumption and interpretation. I simply posted a link to Romy's work (and I did search for the best example I could find) and that put her comments in perspective for myself. I left it for others to make their own decision. I did in fact find her educational links quite interesting though and I respect her work in this area. I'm sorry to disappoint you that I'm no Saint, though I'm tickled that you had that impression.
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Who's Romy?
 
Alex, Alex, Alex ....

Typical, I suppose, that you say there's no misinterpretation going on, right after giving us one of the more blatant examples of willful misreading of what I actually wrote. I said, and please focus and read this slowly, that I might have written a bit more gently, if at all, if the work had been presented with some degree of humility. Now, unless standard English is an entirely different language in your neck of the woods than it is in mine, it seems to me that this sentence is a completely different one from your translation which says: "You've been nasty, so that justifies me being nasty too."

And I hope you don't draw too much satisfaction from your second paragraph either, because reasoning-wise, it's also a bit of an embarrassement, if you don't mind me saying so. Let me explain. Of course, Mr Kersten didn't direct his initial outburst at anyone specific. How could he? He had just arrived, hadn't shaken hands with any individual yet, quickly deplored the reluctance and sobriety of V.I.'s welcome and, in response, lashed out at the community as a whole. Yes? Yes. (But as soon as a few of us stepped forward with individual opinions he hadn't counted on, he did a pretty convincing job — ask Muk — of becoming very personal and unpleasant. Something which you seem to have conveniently forgotten already.)
And in turn: who else if not the person who triggered a reaction from me, would I direct that reaction to? Tell me, please.

And you can go with a toothbrush for Lilliputian ants through my posts if you're so inclined, but you won't find a single phrase that the impartial observer — a good and trustworthy friend of mine — would call vindictive or bullying. (Unless, again, these words mean something different in your English than they do in mine.) Vindictive, in the English I'm familliar with, implies that some harm had been done to me and I was out for revenge. But no harm has come to me in this thread at all. None whatsoever. So how or why should I be vindictive?

Sure, I've been known to be more friendly with people than I was in my first post of this thread, I know that, but this one happens to contain what was and still is my opinion, and I remain of the unwavering belief that it includes nothing that, all things considered, was inappropriate.

Shall we draw a line under all of this and maybe divert our attentions elsewhere? I ask, because I beginning to experience the exact same state of mind as that which I felt at the beginning of this thread: being bored stiff.

_
 
Umm... seems pretty clear to me what happened. Random dude walked into a bar, insulted everyone and called the place a dump and as a result was kicked out by one of the regulars defending the place.

Why are we fighting about it so much?
 
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