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Romantic symphony

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Having been on the receiving end of some very personal insults - unlike you @Guy Bacos - I must say I feel much less conciliatory. Insults I see no apology for, just a general 'sorry what this thread descended into'. And reading on the VSL forum that this is Mr. Kersten's normal modus operandi: lashing out at people, post a cursory apology, throw the next temper tantrum. He can keep his half-assed apologies to himself. If you can't post without insulting people and attacking their person, in my opinion you have no business posting here at all. See, there's a huge difference between writing something that you regret and apoligizing for it once. Or twice. Or even thrice. And doing it for basically every other post you make. Where's the use in apologizing for something you are not going to change?

Having contributed nothing at all to this forum, Mr. Kersten is drawing a lot of attention with his rogue entrance. Attention other forum members who posted their music and are getting no response were much more deserving of. So, in my opinion this forum would be better off without Mr. Kersten.

And one more thing. I am working for a professional orchestra of some renown. We are approached by composers on a regular basis about a possibility of a performance of their music. Standards are high and this 'Romantic Symphony' would never make the cut. Singing its high praises will do nothing to change that.
But even if Mr. Kersten had written something that could make the cut, it would not be performed. Simply because, having experienced a bit of his rather unpleasant internet-persona, we would be certain that it would not be a professional nor nice working experience. Believe it or not, there is no lack of people who are both, extremely talented composers and equipped with a professional attitude.

And this, hopefully, will be the last I'll ever post on anything Kersten-based. Lest I too will loose my manners and dish out some choice words myself.
 
Didn't realise there was editing going on. If person A posts something, then person B responds, and then person A edits the original post AFTERWARDS, does the "original and unedited" post sit somewhere for everyone to be seen? Otherwise, person B's response might look over-the-top to people who didn't read person A's unedited post? Just curious!
 
I enjoyed the piece but I also enjoyed tremendously re-peat's comments which, as always, from a literary point of view, are always a pleasure to read. I regret that when I posted my first piece in this forum I was humble enough to escape re-peat's notice so my chance to be roasted by him is long gone now.
 
I like music said:
Didn't realise there was editing going on. If person A posts something, then person B responds, and then person A edits the original post AFTERWARDS, does the "original and unedited" post sit somewhere for everyone to be seen? Otherwise, person B's response might look over-the-top to people who didn't read person A's unedited post? Just curious!
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I guess in the case of a response which might look over-the-top without context, it would be best practice to quote the post you’re replying to in full. I don’t always do that but this thread serves as a good reminder to do so.
 
ka00 said:
I guess in the case of a response which might look over-the-top without context, it would be best practice to quote the post you’re replying to in full. I don’t always do that but this thread serves as a good reminder to do so.
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Understood. Not that I plan on getting involve in controversial things, but it is helpful to know this. Thanks!
 
I was hoping for a reboot after that apology, I guess in the end that didn't happen, raw emotions got the best of William and must deal with the consequences now. Hopefully he will see this as a learning experience, cause he does have talent and a lot to offer. That's it for me here.
 
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PLOT SUMMARY :

William : Hey, here is my symphony.
Vi-C : ...
William : YOU MORONS.
William : Sorry about that.
Vi-C : Wonderful !
Vi-C : Impressive !
Vi-C : Fantastic !
William : Thank you guys <3
Vi-C : Sorry, I didn't like it.
Vi-C : Sorry, I didn't like it either.
William : YOU MORONS.
William : Sorry about that.
Vi-C : Guys, please be cool with William. He is sometimes too sensitive and passionate about his music, but very cool and helpful.
William : Yeah, I'm sorry.
Vi-C : Sorry, didn't like it either. You're a talented composer, but you should definitely take lessons from a scholared and experienced composer.
Vi-C : How dare you...© William was apologizing and now you're being rude with him again !
Vi-C : Why are you being bad with William ?
Vi-C : You're telling William he should pursue academic training but YOUR OWN MUSIC IS VERY BAD.
Vi-C : You morons.
Vi-C : Nice piece of music ! Maybe you should draw somes curves for CC1 and CC11. And add some vibrato.
Vi-C : Didn't like it, but great job nonetheless.
Vi-C : I Did like it. You can't please everyone.
Vi-C : Yeah, maybe we're a bit rude, but William was a moron in the first place.
Vi-C : HE SAID HE WAS SORRY OKAY ?
William : YOU MORONS.
William : Sorry about that.
 
WilliamKersten said:
I won't be accepted by Muck's renowned orchestra. I am so sad now. You know, I may lose around 20 seconds of sleep tonight. Almost as much as I've lost - a full 30 seconds - due to the peerless, scathing critique of Mr. Repeat (who knows the correct spelling of Delerue as his greatest accomplishment yet).

Oh well, this forum has proven to be a lot of entertainment. And exposure. Thank you!
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I'm curious though, what kind of exposure are you looking for?

In my experience it's unusual to troll other people in forums where peers are likely to see the roadkill.

Edit: By peers I mean your professional or working peers.
 
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Perhaps it's time for this thread to move to the drama zone. Sensitive musicians + ego = endless "last word" posts. The composer knows where he stands with those that appreciate his work and those that don't. Let's get back to a more civil discourse.

Dave
 
Well at least the drama got people to listen to this symphony!

BlackDorito said:
My reaction is mixed. The music grabbed me in local spots .. but generally seemed to be a long string of late romantic gestures. These were admirably executed - some were slow, delicate and beautiful, some bombastic - which provided some interest. As the music unfolded, I was not following it very well because the thematic material didn't cohere for me - I couldn't anticipate what would happen next.
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That summed it up for me too. I didn't have as much of a bizarrely negative reaction as Piet (who has some chip on his shoulder about concert music and academia).

William there is craft to admire here. There are 2 issues with the symphony for me. First is that it's the sum of its influences. It sounds like a collection of direct excerpts from 1880-1910 works. Nothing wrong with being influenced by those masterpieces but I'd like to hear more of your voice with those influences. @Dave Connor mentioned Stravinsky's neoclassical period which is an interesting comparison. I think those pieces still scream "Stravinsky," they have his rhythmic and orchestration DNA in them. Haydn could not have written the 'Symphony of Psalms'...

Second issue is that the piece is very dramatic, it's trying to make a big statement. I like that. But for it to work I think there are two necessities. The 1st movement should be more narrowly focused, or even obsessed, with some very iconic & memorable theme that is presented directly and developed clearly. I love composers like Dvorak and Prokofiev, and I think history has been kinder to them than it otherwise would have, because of the directness of their musical language. As it is now your symphony reminds me a bit of Mahler who is always very dramatic & intense but I can never get into his work because it doesn't feel organized enough. To me he always feels like he's doing a series of dramatic interludes. This is probably a your-mileage-may-vary thing as there's many people who feel Mahler is the greatest writer ever and have no difficulty following him. The other necessity is that you HAVE to steer clear of some of the things you're doing with orchestration and harmony in your climaxes. I can't be more specific without transcribing the piece but there are some moments like 6:54, 5:00, etc they just seem plucked straight from Bruckner or even worse from some black-and-white 1930s film score that aged horribly. I think this is what people are picking up on when they used the unfortunate word "cliche" to describe parts of this symphony. I don't think it's all cliched but there are some moments in there that really grate on me as being both predictable and unavoidably old fashioned... like "Here comes the m7b5.... and there it is". If you take them out and bring forward more of your own voice it'll be such an improvement.

Admittedly I only had time this morning to listen to the first 10 minutes. I won't condescend to you or pretend that I'm a better composer. This is just my feedback as a listener.

Could not agree more with everything @josejherring wrote! It is such a challenge artistically and financially for any artist to devote a part of their life to trying to make a genuinely meaningful and new piece of concert music and I admire that you took that challenge.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, you morons.
 
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NoamL said:
Piet (who has some chip on his shoulder about concert music and academia).
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Hi Noam,

I hope you're not suggesting that I'm suspicious of, or biased against anything to do with concert music and/or academia. Because nothing — and that means: nothing — could be further from the truth. (As, I believe, anyone who knows me a bit better than forum relations allow for, has heard some of my music, read my contributions to discussions that deal with this subject matter, or is familiar with my SoundBoard-posts on various composers and their work, will testify.)
I hold concert music, historical awareness & perspective, education, technical knowledge and mastery of craft in the highest possible regard.

What I *am* suspicious of though, is composers craving approval from the academic world and being prepared — not necessarily knowingly, but no less perceptibly for it — to ignore their former artistically successful self in the hope, so it seems anyway, of being allowed into the illustre circles of the academic and intellectual elite. And forgive me, but I find most of this "rite of passage music" unspeakably boring. John Williams' concert works, Duke Ellington's symphonic excursions, Leonard Bernstein's "serious" stuff, much of Gershwin's post-Rhapsody-in-Blue non-Broadway catalog, Brubeck's efforts, Gerry Mulligan's flirtations with "serious music" ... heck, even Zappa's LSO orchestral work ... the list is depressingly long (and includes several of my favourite composers/musicians of the 20th century). The worst thing that ever happened to Mingus' music was Gunther Schuller — whom I otherwise admire enormously -- turning it into "serious" music. And killing it in the process.

For some reason, I honestly don't know why (although I have a few ideas), this craving seems to be particularly strong among American composers and musicians (although it occurs in all other continents as well, obviously.) After a few years, or decades, of wide-spread and often huge success, many of these artists seem to get increasingly uncomfortable being considered "composers of entertainment or light music". (As opposed to: serious music, a distinction the sense of which has always eluded me.) It doesn't matter that it is light music of the highest quality — oftentimes much better, more original and inspired, and as such, paradoxically, much less lighter and trivial than a lot of serious music —, there still seems to be an as yet unfilled hole in their soul, a sort of incompleteness to their sense of pride and achievement, that can only be filled, so they believe, if they can also convince the intellectual and academic coteries of their artistic worth. It's that kind of lofty, varsity-type prestige they seem to grow to desire more strongly than anything else.

And to that end, they usually turn out drab, conformist music that has none, or very little anyway, of the sparkle, ingenuity, personality, audacity and creativity of their unburdened-with-craving-serious-approval-music. Odd and fascinating phenomenon.

_
 
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Guy Bacos said:
I'd be curious if everyone in this thread, if they'd have to say what they wrote face to face with the person concerned, including William, would they express themselves the same way?
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Not in my case. Had I been presented with Mr. Turdsten's dribble and insults in person I would have responded much less calm and measured than I have here.

Also, I strongly disagree with your implicit notion that both sides are equally to blame. My critque was reasonable and polite. His explosion of insults was totally out of the blue and uncalled for.
 
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I'm a big fan of William's (no not the OP) and Bernstein's concert music (especially his symphonies) some of which is very moving and nicely written. Hell, I even like an American in Paris.....:)
 
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Guy Bacos said:
face to face
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If we were face to face, this sub-forum would be somewhat like a grad school music seminar where we are listening and critiquing. The critiquing would undoubtedly be more diplomatic when you are eyeball to eyeball.

Some people instead might imagine that this is more like a salon performance, with some educated listeners. The listeners that wanted to be encouraging would clap loudly, and the ones that were not moved might not clap at all. If the the performers stood up and said "The clapping isn't loud enough!" some listeners might be offended.
 
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