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Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 4 - Elite Orchestral Forces

Soundlex said:
Like I said I'm probably the only one... Let me develop this:
I use the quintet in Ark3 all the time.
This string section sound even more useful to me.
I use the Ark1 strings all the time too but the 8vas piss me off half of the time.
This as the blurred without 8va and sound even more punchy. The vibrato in the power legato is beautiful!
The orchestration choices are tasteful and I can see plenty of use for them even in a JW type of score situation.
Good luck doing that with the first 3...
Kinda like a BHTK but with the Ark sound, yummy!!
Idk, it's just my opinion.
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I think Ark 1 strings is the weakest part of that library. The strings in Ark 4 sound interesting, but I think I can get most this sound through other libraries I have. (I haven't watched the second walkthrough yet, so I may revise this opinion.) Nothing else that I've heard in Ark 4 except the choir sounds like something I can't get out of what I already have, and my initial impression of the choir, especially the men, is that it is peculiar. I'm not yet sure if that is a good or a bad thing. Again, maybe I'll revise my opinion after watching the second walkthrough and think more about the extreme attacks. I can definitely see how Ark 4 might be very useful for someone who is not already covered however. I'm speaking only for my own situation.
 
The name is gimmick-y but I was very impressed with the sound of the strings power legatos. Those string martele sustains also sound great. Not so much with the WWs and Brass though. It might be worth picking up just for those strings. Are there any other libraries that can achieve that sound?
 
I go nuts for small sections, thinking about it as a complement to BHCT. Some of those brass/ww combinations nicely fill out the gaps in that one.
 
I can't follow the concept of pre combined instruments. What about a new drum set library... first we have a kick together with a crash, next a hi hat with a snare, then a snare wich a kick and also a crash with a snare. Then we need hi tom with a kick and hi tom with snare, same for mid and lo tom... and hi and lo tom together. And everything with an open hi hat. Now we can make a simple drum groove... Oh wait! Couldn't we do that already with any single drum library since ages? Where is the joke?
 
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With recorded orchestrations you have the natural balance of the instruments AND the natural room response for this orchestration.
It's also sometimes a time/RAM saver when you have a nice tasteful instruments combination ready to go.
You don't have to call 4 or 5 instruments. Why have ensembles in libraries then...?
Because you can do it with V1+V2+Va+Cl+B right?
 
Saxer said:
I can't follow the concept of pre combined instruments.
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That's what's completely killing it for me. I LOVE those strings sounds. They sound like all those old 40s movies to me. But I just don't see ever using stuff like trumpet/english horn combos or piano/xylophone rolls combos. Ever. If for some rare thing I did need that combination for a few bars, I'd just combine instruments. Way more flexible. So even at $400 for a string library that isn't even in full sections and a bunch of instruments that I'll never use taking up space on my SSDs, it's really making me conflicted on pulling the trigger.
 
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Soundlex said:
You don't have to call 4 or 5 instruments.
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That's right, I have to call for 4 or 5 instruments plus the combined sampled instrument. The first 4 or 5 are for chords or solos plus the combi instruments for the unison passages. I never had a track where oboe, flute and clarinet are playing in unison all the time. Standard combination, yes, but all the time for a whole track? Never.
Soundlex said:
Why have ensembles in libraries then...?
Because you can do it with V1+V2+Va+Cl+B right?
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Ensembles are nice for trying chords and make simple pad work. But at the end V1+V2+Va+Cl+B sounds better.
 
Saxer said:
That's right, I have to call for 4 or 5 instruments plus the combined sampled instrument. The first 4 or 5 are for chords or solos plus the combi instruments for the unison passages. I never had a track where oboe, flute and clarinet are playing in unison all the time. Standard combination, yes, but all the time for a whole track? Never.

Ensembles are nice for trying chords and make simple pad work. But at the end V1+V2+Va+Cl+B sounds better.
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And nothing on the natural balance and the room response for your "unison passages"?
I thought I had a serious point there...anyway.
You should email OT and Spitfire to let them know how silly it is to offer combined instruments.
You seem pretty concerned by it!
 
Soundlex said:
You seem pretty concerned by it!
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I love a lot of the string sounds I hear in the ARK4 walkthroughs but I now I'll also never have a use for all those combis. That's the reason I pass Spitfires BH and ARK 4 too.
But a lot of those articulations would be welcome as an extension for BWW or Berlin Strings.
 
Saxer said:
I can't follow the concept of pre combined instruments.
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I hear you Saxer, but to be fair I think they have a philosophy behind it that you may or may not agree with. They recorded and blended the instruments in such a way that they would actually come across not as a combination but as a single new instrument. They want it to be "green", not "yellow" plus "blue".

Folks don't seem to be buying into the idea and I'm not entirely sold on it myself. They probably could have explained it better and skipped the whole "insects hardwired to floor an elephant" preamble, but hey, it's worth noting that they're going for a specific thing that was thought out.
Saxer said:
But a lot of those articulations would be welcome as an extension for BWW or Berlin Strings.
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Agreed!
 
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Just 'grumping', but the tough thing for 'later comers' to OT _ like me _ is that these combi(s) are quite attractive at these costs. Adding them at Eur 599, 549, later makes these 'less used' selections unattractive.
OTH _ adding 3 or 4 in one, short, Promo /Intro timeframe gives me flatus .... (if that rings a bell) :rolleyes:
 
I appreciate the concept they're going for in these combinations, creating new colours that should be viewed as new instruments. I have a feeling that we may find more use out of these specific combos than anticipated, as the timbral qualities of many of these combinations seem to be diverse enough to play an important role in a variety of situations.

I personally love the choirs, especially the male choir, as that operatic touch from that one male voice that stands out can serve as a fronting instrument in some tracks. I'll be mentioning all this in my review.
 
There's a perceptual dimension to this. Ensuring you get the overtones of different instruments to perceptually fuse into a single sound is of course something that we do all the time in orchestration. (And the entire discipline of voice leading is the art of not preventing perceptual fusing)

But there are also factors know to work against the perceptual fusing of overtones - stereo image, for instance can give you brain clues that it's actually yellow-basoons on the left and blue-horns on the right, preventing the fusion into green-bassoon-horns all around. Similarly differences in vibrato or dynamic phrasing (or other expressive modulations) can inhibit this fusing.


So there's at least good theoretical case that these carefully orchestrated-for-perceptual-fusing single patches may indeed be able achieve an effect that could, a least, be a lot harder to achieve by layering samples recorded separately.

In general, this does look like a fun library. Much more interesting, have seen the walkthrough, that I had initial though.
 
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ism said:
There's a perceptual dimension to this. Ensuring to get the overtones of different instrument can perceptually fuse into a single sound is of course something that we do all the time in orchestration. (And the entire discipline of voice leading is the art of not preventing perceptual fusing)

But there are also factors know to work against the perceptual fusing of overtones - stereo image, for instance can give you brain clues that it's actually yellow-basoons on the left and blue-horns on the right, preventing the fusion into green-bassoon-horns all around. Similarly differences in vibrato or dynamic phrasing (or other expressive modulations) can inhibit this fusing.


So there's at least good theoretical case that these carefully orchestrated-for-perceptual-fusing single patches may indeed be able achieve an effect that could, a least, be a lot harder to achieve by layering samples recorded separately.

In general, this does look like a fun library. Much more interesting, have seen the walkthrough, that I had initial though.
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This!! Thank you.
 
ism said:
There's a perceptual dimension to this. Ensuring to get the overtones of different instrument can perceptually fuse into a single sound is of course something that we do all the time in orchestration. (And the entire discipline of voice leading is the art of not preventing perceptual fusing)

But there are also factors know to work against the perceptual fusing of overtones - stereo image, for instance can give you brain clues that it's actually yellow-basoons on the left and blue-horns on the right, preventing the fusion into green-bassoon-horns all around. Similarly differences in vibrato or dynamic phrasing (or other expressive modulations) can inhibit this fusing.


So there's at least good theoretical case that these carefully orchestrated-for-perceptual-fusing single patches may indeed be able achieve an effect that could, a least, be a lot harder to achieve by layering samples recorded separately.

In general, this does look like a fun library. Much more interesting, have seen the walkthrough, that I had initial though.
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On the other end with yellow+blue I can make lots of different shades of green, but for that they want you to buy the Berlin series. I want to play Yellow A and Blue B flat.That's what I call chromatic choice...
 
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ism said:
There's a perceptual dimension to this. Ensuring to get the overtones of different instrument can perceptually fuse into a single sound is of course something that we do all the time in orchestration. (And the entire discipline of voice leading is the art of not preventing perceptual fusing)

But there are also factors know to work against the perceptual fusing of overtones - stereo image, for instance can give you brain clues that it's actually yellow-basoons on the left and blue-horns on the right, preventing the fusion into green-bassoon-horns all around. Similarly differences in vibrato or dynamic phrasing (or other expressive modulations) can inhibit this fusing.


So there's at least good theoretical case that these carefully orchestrated-for-perceptual-fusing single patches may indeed be able achieve an effect that could, a least, be a lot harder to achieve by layering samples recorded separately.

In general, this does look like a fun library. Much more interesting, have seen the walkthrough, that I had initial though.
Click to expand...

My sense is that there will be many more 'informed' impressions of Ark 4, as its intended uses become better understood and applied. OT and the several top-tier creators /providers, are using their immense talents to provide fresh and innovative libraries which will allow similarly talented composers /orchestrators to go in new directions.

My severely limited, comparative talents appreciate these several new approaches. Last thing I need is another full orchestral library with little to offer than 'different' musicians, in different venues, likely using the same trusted recording devices (since there are few better).

Thank-you @ ism, and others, for balancing the bell-curve fringes with thoughtful and open minds ! :thumbsup:
 
Any guess on how this would pair with SCS/BHCT/OT Inspire 2/OT BS 1st chair? I'm a guitar/B3 classic rock/prog guy wanting one or two great sounding VIs to add mostly strings and maybe winds/brass into compositions. I have EWSO Gold Play and can't stand the wetness - I want 'present' sounding instruments (think Elenor Rigby - which OT First Chars reminds me of).

Budget is a concern so one or maybe two are doable, with the sales and possible Wish List. Love the sounds I'm hearing from SCS (been wanting this for a while but it is the most expensive) and the new ARK 4 (has quickly become a co-favorite - recency effect?). Could see myself doing some Epic as a secondary focus. Thoughts? Deadlines are making this tough to consider rationally!
 
Bansi said:
On the other end with yellow+blue I can make lots of different shades of green, but for that they want you to buy the Berlin series. I want to play Yellow A and Blue B flat.That's what I call chromatic choice...
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Absolutely. Plus, getting in and mixing your own colours is very often the fun part (and finger painting is arguably one of the better metaphors how I personally approach composition :) )


But there's also a point at which the colour metaphor breaks down, in that hearing involves a hierarchy of perceptual and cognitive dimensions, different from visual perception of colour. 'Blending' of sound occurs in our minds in multiple ways - harmonically, texturally (as in foreground and background textural layers etc), as well as a lower level of perceptual blending of individual overtones. You can get sounds to blend onto a single layer, or into a single chord without actually invoking the lower level perceptual effects in which the overruns are fused into a single perceptual process.

So, for instance, in a complex 4 part voice leading where perceptual independence of the lines is paramount, if you have two different instruments playing a single line, then even small differences in, for instance, the vibrato might conceivably break the perceptual independence of that line, causing your mind to scramble to try to interpret a 5 part voice leading, and since 4 part voice leading already has human perception push right to it's edge (*) his could break the voice leading for all but the most attentive listeners (**). Or maybe, for a listener failing to grasp a 5 part voice leading instead, this out of sync vibrato might then just break the voice leading altogether. It's a bit like the collapse of the wave function in quantum mechanism (if that's a helpful metaphor).


So a lot of the time when I really enjoy the finger-paining like process of mixing colours into sounds, its about them much easier colours on textural layers a lot more often than it is about separate perceptual streams. Sometime its possible to blend within a signal perceptual layers, but as the number of independent parts in the voice leading goes up, it gets a lot harder, very quickly.


Anyway, I am not nearly a sophisticated enough orchestrator to predict how amazing or not amazing this perceptual fusion based approach to orchestration of Ark4 will be. Just saying that there's a good theoretical basis on which to argue that it might be a really fun thing to try.

Hopefully I'll get the chance to play with it someday.


(*) I've always suspected that by they time he got to 5 and 6 part counterpoint, Bach was really just showing off. Modern perceptual science suggests that my suspicion was not unreasonably, in that 3 independent perceptual sound streams is normal for the human mind. 4 is entirely possible, but much hard to achieve. 5 is apparently not impossible, but probably going to take Bach-like powers of voice leading and an extremely talented and attentive listener. 6, well I'm pretty sure that's just showing off.

(**) All of this assumes we're orchestrating for an audience of humans of course. If you're orchestrating for, say, dolphins, then I'd expect their perceptual capacities would open up entirely new possibilities - and difficulties - in orchestration. Not that there's been a lot written on how to orchestrate for dolphins yet, so far as I know.
 
ism said:
(*) I've always suspected that by they time he got to 5 and 6 part counterpoint, Bach was really just showing off. Modern perceptual science suggests that my suspicion was not unreasonably, in that 3 independent perceptual sound streams is normal for the human mind. 4 is entirely possible, but much hard to achieve. 5 is apparently not impossible, but probably going to take Bach-like powers of voice leading and an extremely talented and attentive listener. 6, well I'm pretty sure that's just showing off.
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Well, when to this day literally thousands of people consider you the greatest composer whom ever lived, it's called "showin' yer skills, yo!"





lol!
 
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