Winter to Spring Waltz, looking for feedback or constructive criticism

[Luna_Lunara]

Hi, I am very new to composing, I have very limited music theory knowledge, am an low intermediate piano player and listen to orchestral music, where I try to pay attention to the techniques. Was considering getting a composition teacher, don't know if I am showing any promise to justify getting one, and also music is a hobby for me.

So I have tried to compose two waltzes before but this is my first completed piece, this waltz is more for listening than for dancing and I don't think it is classical. I don't really know what I am doing so I think there will be a lot of jarring parts in there, however I don't really know how to fix them or I don't know why it is happening so I have issues finding those parts.

If there are unusual parts (which I assume they are many, in the music and the notation) it is very possible that they were not intended or I don't know how to do it in a proper manner. So assume double stops and divisi where appropriate for example.

Link to orchestral score:

Link to audio:

Just looking for some feedback or constructive criticism. Thanks

Click to read more...

 

[Chris Findlaytor]

Hi Luna, welcome to the forum!

I think for being new to composition this is pretty good, certainly shows promise to me! You seem to have some pretty good instincts/good ears in my opinion, so maybe don't worry too much in a "proper manner" if you really like what you've made. That being said, a teacher could definitely help you be able to find out "what's happening" in the music, as well learning more about music theory (though not a requirement, as many cam attest).

I think the vibe of the piece definitely feels like a waltz, and I can see by looking at the score that you have a melody that comes back throughout the piece, which is good. I like the piano flourishes, they add a very nice touch. I really liked around 1:45 with the key change and crescendo, I only wish that section was longer!

The only part I had a bit of trouble with was the change from 2:02-2:05, I initially thought that it was the beginning of a different piece (which I'm thinking is the beginning of the Spring section after the end of the Winter section?). I think if the sections were transitioned a little smoother that could be helpful (for example, you could just delete the empty measure of silence (m.82), since the previous measure ends on beat 1, so it already has 2 beats of rest). I do like that this section is different than the previous music (again, assuming it's representing the changing season), adding variety which can be very nice in a composition.

I honestly wish my first composition was as good as this, I think it's a great start to your composition journey! Definitely a solid piece of music

Hopefully this helps, if there's anything else I can help with let me know!

 

[Luna_Lunara]

Hi Luna, welcome to the forum!

I think for being new to composition this is pretty good, certainly shows promise to me! You seem to have some pretty good instincts/good ears in my opinion, so maybe don't worry too much in a "proper manner" if you really like what you've made. That being said, a teacher could definitely help you be able to find out "what's happening" in the music, as well learning more about music theory (though not a requirement, as many cam attest).

I think the vibe of the piece definitely feels like a waltz, and I can see by looking at the score that you have a melody that comes back throughout the piece, which is good. I like the piano flourishes, they add a very nice touch. I really liked around 1:45 with the key change and crescendo, I only wish that section was longer!

The only part I had a bit of trouble with was the change from 2:02-2:05, I initially thought that it was the beginning of a different piece (which I'm thinking is the beginning of the Spring section after the end of the Winter section?). I think if the sections were transitioned a little smoother that could be helpful (for example, you could just delete the empty measure of silence (m.82), since the previous measure ends on beat 1, so it already has 2 beats of rest). I do like that this section is different than the previous music (again, assuming it's representing the changing season), adding variety which can be very nice in a composition.

I honestly wish my first composition was as good as this, I think it's a great start to your composition journey! Definitely a solid piece of music

Hopefully this helps, if there's anything else I can help with let me know!

Thanks for your thoughtful comments and feedback, and yes you are correct, the 2:02-2:05s section is where I intended for the Winter section to finish, and for the Spring section to start. I think your suggestion about deleting m.82 is a great, and will help things flow a bit better. After your suggestion I have been considering moving the Spring section up a half step, so it starts in the same key as the previous section, rather than switching it back to the key the song started in.

I have made both the changes and some other small changes. The audio is here should you be interested (Timestamp 1:36 for section before the changes):

I am pretty sure it flows smoother now, but still thinking about whether transposing the Spring section was the right choice, since it has become higher pitched now, am thinking if it is appropriate to balance it out a bit by adding some more mid range or bass. Also yes, your comment was very helpful. Much appreciated.

 

[Jim of Seattle]

Thanks for your thoughtful comments and feedback, and yes you are correct, the 2:02-2:05s section is where I intended for the Winter section to finish, and for the Spring section to start. I think your suggestion about deleting m.82 is a great, and will help things flow a bit better. After your suggestion I have been considering moving the Spring section up a half step, so it starts in the same key as the previous section, rather than switching it back to the key the song started in.

I have made both the changes and some other small changes. The audio is here should you be interested (Timestamp 1:36 for section before the changes):

I am pretty sure it flows smoother now, but still thinking about whether transposing the Spring section was the right choice, since it has become higher pitched now, am thinking if it is appropriate to balance it out a bit by adding some more mid range or bass. Also yes, your comment was very helpful. Much appreciated.

Hi Luna. I have listened to both versions, and have some feedback for you.

First off, this sounds really great, and you should be super happy with it. Like @Chris Findlaytor said, I wish my first composition sounded like this.

Did you start in with the orchestral arrangement, or work off a piano version before orchestrating? Because I would *highly* recommend the latter approach. From the comments thus far in the thread, it seems you are mixing compositional and orchestrational thoughts. Ideally, most of the actual composing should happen before you decide what instruments are going to play any of it (though of course IRL it's not necessarily like that). Just like a painter starts with a line sketch, you want to know how your piece feels structurally first, and when that seems good, only then move on to arranging it.

It doesn't feel like you're in love with your melodic material enough. It starts out with a vibe that it's going to be very committed to melody, but the main theme doesn't behave itself, and before long I'm kind of structurally lost. Here's a little breakdown so you can hopefully hear what I'm talking about.

After your one-bar intro, then what sounds like the main theme starts, and because it's 8 bars long and ends on the dominant, my ear automatically hears that something has come to an end and we're now either going to hear that thing again, or go onto something else, or maybe get a different variation on what's come so far. I'm at 0:13 now.

So the strings swoop in at 0:13 and I'm thinking we're going to get the second half of the main theme but with some more volume and flourish. So I'm still with you. Then when that 8-bar section seems done, the thematic material doesn't seem quite done yet, at 0:25. I expected to get a concluding A minor chord signifying the theme was done. But it goes on, so I'm like, ok, it's an extended thing tacked on to the end of the theme, but I just know we're going to wind 'er up here any second.... and I wait... and wait... and by the time I'm up to about 0:40 I'm wondering what's going on structurally. The piece seems to be going it's merry way but I'm feeling lost already. My ear was wanting some sort of punctuation indicating one thing is done and a new thing is starting up. This is typically done with some combination of harmony, melody and orchestration, and is a moment for us all to think "OK, that's that, now what?" but you don't give us the chance to plant that flag, so by the time we're up to 0:45, 0:50, it' seems to just keep going with no sense of shape.

By the time we're at the 1:00 mark, I've lost a sense of place, both horizontally and vertically, and the piece has become kind of an exercise in that magical/eerie/beguiling darkness feel of the minor key waltz, but I don't have anything to hang onto and I'm now just floating in the generic sound.

Anyway, I'll stop there, because fixing that opening is higher priority than what comes after. You say you are new to composing, that it's only a hobby, but also that you were thinking of getting a composition teacher, so your future plans with regard to composing are not entirely clear to me. In any case, I wouldn't work anymore on this piece. Not because it's not worth working on by any stretch, but because you've clearly put a ton of work into it and should just happily log it as a Big Win and go onward and upward with something new. If you were going to continue working on this one, I would suggest writing it for piano-only (or 2 pianos if necessary) and get all the seductive charm of instrumental color off the table to concentrate on the "line drawing".

I hope this is helpful, let me know if you have any questions!

 

[Luna_Lunara]

Hi Luna. I have listened to both versions, and have some feedback for you.

First off, this sounds really great, and you should be super happy with it. Like @Chris Findlaytor said, I wish my first composition sounded like this.

Did you start in with the orchestral arrangement, or work off a piano version before orchestrating? Because I would *highly* recommend the latter approach. From the comments thus far in the thread, it seems you are mixing compositional and orchestrational thoughts. Ideally, most of the actual composing should happen before you decide what instruments are going to play any of it (though of course IRL it's not necessarily like that). Just like a painter starts with a line sketch, you want to know how your piece feels structurally first, and when that seems good, only then move on to arranging it.

It doesn't feel like you're in love with your melodic material enough. It starts out with a vibe that it's going to be very committed to melody, but the main theme doesn't behave itself, and before long I'm kind of structurally lost. Here's a little breakdown so you can hopefully hear what I'm talking about.

After your one-bar intro, then what sounds like the main theme starts, and because it's 8 bars long and ends on the dominant, my ear automatically hears that something has come to an end and we're now either going to hear that thing again, or go onto something else, or maybe get a different variation on what's come so far. I'm at 0:13 now.

So the strings swoop in at 0:13 and I'm thinking we're going to get the second half of the main theme but with some more volume and flourish. So I'm still with you. Then when that 8-bar section seems done, the thematic material doesn't seem quite done yet, at 0:25. I expected to get a concluding A minor chord signifying the theme was done. But it goes on, so I'm like, ok, it's an extended thing tacked on to the end of the theme, but I just know we're going to wind 'er up here any second.... and I wait... and wait... and by the time I'm up to about 0:40 I'm wondering what's going on structurally. The piece seems to be going it's merry way but I'm feeling lost already. My ear was wanting some sort of punctuation indicating one thing is done and a new thing is starting up. This is typically done with some combination of harmony, melody and orchestration, and is a moment for us all to think "OK, that's that, now what?" but you don't give us the chance to plant that flag, so by the time we're up to 0:45, 0:50, it' seems to just keep going with no sense of shape.

By the time we're at the 1:00 mark, I've lost a sense of place, both horizontally and vertically, and the piece has become kind of an exercise in that magical/eerie/beguiling darkness feel of the minor key waltz, but I don't have anything to hang onto and I'm now just floating in the generic sound.

Anyway, I'll stop there, because fixing that opening is higher priority than what comes after. You say you are new to composing, that it's only a hobby, but also that you were thinking of getting a composition teacher, so your future plans with regard to composing are not entirely clear to me. In any case, I wouldn't work anymore on this piece. Not because it's not worth working on by any stretch, but because you've clearly put a ton of work into it and should just happily log it as a Big Win and go onward and upward with something new. If you were going to continue working on this one, I would suggest writing it for piano-only (or 2 pianos if necessary) and get all the seductive charm of instrumental color off the table to concentrate on the "line drawing".

I hope this is helpful, let me know if you have any questions!

Hi, thank you for your comments and feedback.

First of all I think your feedback is very in-depth and well explained, you are right about me mixing compositional and orchestral thoughts. So I started on piano doing the first section or first few sections, then orchestrated that part, then went back to piano. With your feedback I realized that I was just adding one section after another, but only really thinking about the section that came before it, rather than thinking about it also as a whole. My process was get something down first, then change it, which I think is fine if I was sticking to a piano version like you recommended, but I do think it can cause issues when jumping straight into the orchestration, which is only amplified as a beginner. Which is evident, as you pointed out the issues with the structure.

After following your breakdown while listening to the song, I definitely agree, a new section just started off on its own, and the section before didn't finish properly. So that definitely highlighted the importance of structure to me, and gave an idea of what things to work on, in both in composing and that song in particular.

So music has indeed been a hobby to me, and as I said, I recently started composing. From this I realized I am really quite interested in it, so I was considering getting a composition teacher to make it more of a serious hobby.

I would like to work more on this piece, though I am also interested in starting something new, so I will take your advice, where I plan to start working on something new, making a complete piano version, rather than jumping straight into orchestration, in order to try and make a song with a solid structure and also working on other things too. Then I will consider coming back to this song.

And yes, your comment was very helpful. Definitely made me realize many things that I didn't before.