Why did "Headshot" get banned?
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Hannes_F
Traveller in boundlessness, at home in the Now
It is technically impossible to avoid double standards. How would that work?
Moderators can and will not read everything, and often only when they are called by a report. So it could easily be that guy 1 violates the rules all the time and nothing happens, then guy 2 does the same one time, gets reported and axed. And when Frederick gets called to it, he has rarely time to read much but owns the biggest axe.
You can tell the police that you shoplifted because you saw others do it all the time but will that help? You are the one who got caught.
So, simply behave like a civilized person no matter what the others do, that is always good. Like my mother said (and yours presumably too) others are no scale. Absolutely not.
Moderators can and will not read everything, and often only when they are called by a report. So it could easily be that guy 1 violates the rules all the time and nothing happens, then guy 2 does the same one time, gets reported and axed. And when Frederick gets called to it, he has rarely time to read much but owns the biggest axe.
You can tell the police that you shoplifted because you saw others do it all the time but will that help? You are the one who got caught.
So, simply behave like a civilized person no matter what the others do, that is always good. Like my mother said (and yours presumably too) others are no scale. Absolutely not.
Mathieu A
Member
Would you mean that the thread "Star Wars the Force awakens trailer rescored" which was more than 50 pages and last more than a year with numerous insults and accusations has never been red by the moderators? And strangely a 6 pages thread where someone says he doesn't believe what another one said is suddenly closed and the guy banned and all his posts erased?
I mean, you seriously think this has nothing to do with the fact that the mistrust is about a god for a lot of people here?
Hannes_F
Traveller in boundlessness, at home in the Now
Basically yes. Mathieu, in order to explain the procedure to you: I am sure that some of the moderators read at least portions of "Star Wars the Force awakens" thread (I read some of it but not fully). It could be that we were called to some incidents in this thread, then usually we read some pages before to get an overview.
However I am not sure Frederick ever read that "Star Wars" thread at all. Maybe, maybe not, in any case presumably he did not set it into context to the new "Zimmer" thread whatsoever. Frederick steps in when a moderator calls his attention to something which is out of the norm, concentratedly examins the incident in question, and acts.
I am not sure I understand you here.
Mathieu A
Member
Headshot just said to HZ he didn't trust him, surely in a funny way but nothing more. No insult. But it seems too much for all of those who adore him and reported Headshot to the moderators. And even after that, they could, in order :
1 : notice Headshot about the posts they judge unacceptable (while oddly the french bashing was ok, no need to moderate that)
2 : ask everyone to calm down
3 (last resort) : close the thread
But they banned him, erased all his posts (and I mean all of them, not just the ones on this thread) and closed the thread without explanation. Is that a normal way to proceed?
Regarding the "Star wars Force awakens trailer rescored" thread, nobody was shocked by the tone of the discussion and the moderators didn't receive any report cause someone is called a "dick" on a thread that a lot of us red, or they received some and thought it was acceptable. In both ways, it seems better to be a well known composer than a total unknwown on vi control. Some are more equals than others...
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Hannes_F
Traveller in boundlessness, at home in the Now
Mathieu,
if that is your opinion then you should perhaps write a letter or a mail to Frederick, and make a reasonable suggestion how to fix the problems that you see. It is quite unlikely that Frederick will read this thread without somebody inviting him, so we are turning in circles.
You guys are not differentiating enough between what the moderator team does and what is reserved to the forum owner. No moderator can delete a user's account. So in this case you need to address the man himself.
if that is your opinion then you should perhaps write a letter or a mail to Frederick, and make a reasonable suggestion how to fix the problems that you see. It is quite unlikely that Frederick will read this thread without somebody inviting him, so we are turning in circles.
You guys are not differentiating enough between what the moderator team does and what is reserved to the forum owner. No moderator can delete a user's account. So in this case you need to address the man himself.
re-peat
Senior Member
On the subject of deleting threads: anyone knows why the "Music & Criticism" thread got deleted? As far as I recall, no famous composers were insulted during that discussion, no advertisers were ill-spoken of, no swear words or foul language was used, there wasn't a single word uttered that could be interpreted as legally risky ... and yet, for some reason, it still got deleted.
If it's not too much to ask, I would really like to know that reason. Thanks ad libitum.
_
If it's not too much to ask, I would really like to know that reason. Thanks ad libitum.
_
tack
Damned Dirty Ape
Didn't the person who started that thread request his account be deleted? Perhaps deleting accounts also deletes all threads started by the account holder, in addition to posts on other threads.
Or, maybe I'm (mis)remembering another encounter. Do you mean this thread?
And now that I look, your posts seem to have been deleted, Piet, and the only remnants are quoted text. From your question I gather this was done without your knowledge or having received any warning?
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Dave Connor
Senior Member
I never saw what you describe above. If I had I would have defended you exactly as I defended Hans. The reason I would defend either of you is because you are forum members - not your notoriety.
There has been a consistent theme here that Hans doesn't do his own work. I argue against that because you can plainly hear his musical sensibility in all his work. I think it is poor musicianship to not be able to hear that. If he does a score that seems to be outside of what he is capable of then it's a fair question to ask him about it. If he answers just as if you answer a question, both of you should be afforded the courtesy of being believed you have spoken truthfully. Attacking that person as a liar is both speculative and uncivil as well as against forum rules. As you have said, there are forums where apparently it's okay to accuse in that way but this isn't one of them. Nothing wrong with that. It stems from Frederick Russ' very civil helpful nature.
desert
Just here so I don't get fined
Yes, this is the very ironic part.
Headshot accused of faking a mockup with real instruments = 50 pages of insults with no one receiving bans
Headshot accuses HZ of faking = instant ban
Dave Connor
Senior Member
Just to be accurate.
re-peat
Senior Member
Yes, that’s the one. Thanks, Tack.
Now I understand why I couldn’t find that thread: I searched for it via my control panel’s “Your content”. But as my posts in that thread were deleted, they’re obviously no longer part of ‘my content’ either …
And no, I wasn’t informed of any of that. Nor warned.
The official who deleted those posts didn’t even have the courtesy to leave a message in place saying that certain posts were deleted, let alone give us an explanation as to the reason why.
Which is my next question: why? Why delete a post that was written almost 5 months ago, during all of which time, no one (apart maybe from its addressee) appeared to consider it inappropriate. (In fact, that post received nearly 30 likes during its lifespan, which seems to indicate that its content resonated to quite some extent with a part of this community, no?)
If any moderator or administrator happens to read this: care to explain the reasoning behind the decision? Please?
Even if only to exclude the idea, that certain members yield enough power to be able to have other members’ posts deleted if they don’t happen to like what’s written in them, from the list of possible explanations. Because that would be a deeply unsettling state of affairs, I’m sure you’ll agree.
_
AlexanderSchiborr
Senior Member
Definitely that sounds not that you said that he is a liar, agreed. But lets be at least a bit more complete, also for the public here, right?
Lets take your first comment:
"
Hans Zimmer is also very good at Big band :
(link to his track)
this man is just incredible...the diversity of his scores is just...wow...it's like twenty composers in one...just wow...
Please Hans ! more Big band !
PLEASE HANS !! A BIG BAND MASTERCLASS !! PLEASE !!"
So I guess that first comment by you was just for informational reasons, right?...
After another forum member posted that:
".. not sure if you are being serious or very, very sarcastic...
... I do know what it should be, though..."
you answered the following:
"Of course, it was sarcasm.
If Hans Zimmer has entirely written and orchestrated this piece, as he said, I'm the King of the Universe and Santa Claus is my father.
But I do not prevent anyone from believing."
HZ said then the following in one of his posts:
"Actually, I did write and orchestrate that whole piece. That's why it's not all that good."
Your reaction to his comment was then:
"Sorry, I don't buy it. This piece is way too impressive technically for having been made by a "Big band rookie"."
After that post he reacted and asked you if you are calling him a Liar?
So..come one..when somebody would do this kind sorry shitty fueling fire into the can to heat a discussion thing then I would at a certain point ask you the same question.
And after that you even start to demand that HZ sends you a midi to prove that he didn´t talk shit? Are you totally nuts in your head? What´s wrong with you, dude?!:
"Sorry again but I don't know you...do I have to take your word for it and put aside my critical sense just because you are famous ?
Please send me an excerpt from the project (midi file), and if it's true, I will subscribe to your masterclass."
I never was a big friend or supporter of HZ but one thing I will tell you: If someone comes along and do such a bullshit highschool talk with me I would shovel up my major fist in his butt at the pace of lightspeed and show him some manners, and don´t think I am shitting here. It is the brutal truth! You know what I think you need to learn, yeah, you should learn some respect, because I think you lack of respect towards others. You have a sharp tongue and you don´t know when to stop which can be a major mistake if not considering so, in the end I think you totally deserve your kick!
Over and out!
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douggibson
New Member
Hey re-peat.
I tried sending you a message, but it seems you have a lock on who can send messages.
I had a post erased (with my permission, and the moderator asked me if it was ok) from the thread you are referring to. I just wanted to pass along what I know from that exchange.
I bet that is frustrating not knowing why your posts were deleted, and I hope you get a solid answer.
However there really was no way this thread was going to turn into a "musicians helping musicians" thread again.
A moderator, most likely thought the exact same thing, and took honest action to fix this and keep the peace.
I think he was correct to lock the thread. I would bet the mod simply wanted to keep things from blowing up into personal attacks (I think the pouring gas on flames images are still there.)
Another member (not you) had really crossed the line - in my opinion which I posted about asking for its removal - about 6 pages before your post so it was already a very toxic thread.
tack
Damned Dirty Ape
I disagree. Honest action would have been to notify the parties whose posts were removed, rather than summarily and quietly deleting them.
I would rather spend my time on forums where I'm not looking over my shoulder wondering if my content is unwittingly vanishing into the bitbucket in my wake.
re-peat
Senior Member
Doug,
Locking a thread is one thing, but arbitrarily deleting posts, without explanation or informing anyone why, is quite another. Especially a post that nobody considered probematic for five whole months. Why did it suddenly have to go?
I agree that the thread wasn't particularly strong on "musicians helping musicians". It had other interest though, not without relevance to the community. And besides, if they were to delete all content from V.I. that doesn't fully qualify as "musicians helping musicians"-material, they'd be left with painfully little, I fear. Not that I'd mind, but either that motto means something and is adhered by consequently, or it isn't. You can't just invoke it when it's convenient or serves your purpose, and then ignore it at all other times.
Which brings us to that double standard thing again. I mean, doesn't it give pause to think when colourful phrases like "major-fist-in-the-butt at light speed" and "complete nutcase" are allowed to stand (not to mention the heated political post-election discussions that literally swarm with foul and eyebrow-raising aggressive language), while my observations — worded with more civil restraint than I have ever shown and, in this case, also expressing widely shared views — are considered out-of-line?
Seems only one explanation to me, and it isn't a nice one. The more so because the peacekeeper responsible doesn't seem to have the courage and decency to explain this sillyness.
_
Locking a thread is one thing, but arbitrarily deleting posts, without explanation or informing anyone why, is quite another. Especially a post that nobody considered probematic for five whole months. Why did it suddenly have to go?
I agree that the thread wasn't particularly strong on "musicians helping musicians". It had other interest though, not without relevance to the community. And besides, if they were to delete all content from V.I. that doesn't fully qualify as "musicians helping musicians"-material, they'd be left with painfully little, I fear. Not that I'd mind, but either that motto means something and is adhered by consequently, or it isn't. You can't just invoke it when it's convenient or serves your purpose, and then ignore it at all other times.
Which brings us to that double standard thing again. I mean, doesn't it give pause to think when colourful phrases like "major-fist-in-the-butt at light speed" and "complete nutcase" are allowed to stand (not to mention the heated political post-election discussions that literally swarm with foul and eyebrow-raising aggressive language), while my observations — worded with more civil restraint than I have ever shown and, in this case, also expressing widely shared views — are considered out-of-line?
Seems only one explanation to me, and it isn't a nice one. The more so because the peacekeeper responsible doesn't seem to have the courage and decency to explain this sillyness.
_
douggibson
New Member
I can't speak at all for the moderator, and please don't think I don't hear what you are saying.
I have no horse in this race. I posted because it seems you have not been communicated too, and know radio silence can be frustrating. I agree, that can leave a person "hanging" and wondering.
Also as a New Yorker ..... I don't mind the fowl language. I personally really enjoy reading your posts,
and respect your opinions. I would even go as far to say you, and a few others, are one the members whom I always try and read or listen to music posted.
You are also right about other comments allowed to stand. I fully confess in one forum thread post I called someone a total D#$K when he posted a photo of Trump with a Rambo machine gun and an eagle on his shoulder etc. Trust me...... his music was just as tacky. That thread is now gone too....... but I dropped a few F-bombs. (I said I was a New Yorker right ?)
I hope you get a straight answer. You can always write the mod and ask.
About half way through the thread you are referring to a member posted some comments that I felt were really out of line. Basically it was gossip on the mental health of a unnamed member. I posted a public reply that this was way out of line. I asked that person to remove this from his reply.
Look, I guess it is impossible to be discreet about all of this. Basically my thoughts were that JSG was posting bullshit about you. When I read his post, you specifically came to mind as the person he was referring to.(I may be 100% wrong but this is what honestly popped into my head) I posted that this way out of line for so many reasons.
The next day I received a polite message from the moderator that he agreed with me, and had deleted that comment from the thread. He asked if it was ok, basically to keep the thread on topic, to delete my post calling out JSG since those statements were no longer viewable. I said sure, of course. So my post was removed - and with 100% my permission and approval. I also hope, that the moderator gave a stern warning to JSG in addition to the edits on his post. I have no idea if this happened.
Well.....we got about 6 more pages and like the end of a pub crawl the thread basically devolved into talk of meditation...... At which point you (Re-peat) arrived to give life back to the party. I think the pouring gas on flames images are still there.
Personally I smiled, and I think laughed and clapped my hands a few times reading your post that is now gone. I am glad you speak directly and your post said what I certainly was felling towards the end of the thread.
I don't have any idea of any possible Vi-Control conspiracy, but if memory serves me correct I believe you stated at one point and I am paraphrasing "You are the most despicable person I have ever had the mis-fortune of meeting." That makes me laugh pretty hard, but that was not going to turn into a "musicians helping musicians".
I just wanted to write you after I saw your posts wondering what happened. I can't comment on anything else. I have no official association with VI-Control..... and as I said I have no horse in this race.
I would just say -- for you not me --- write the moderator directly and ask. I tried sending you a message privately so I would not have to post this on the forum, but it seems you have a lock on how people can write you through the site. Is it possible the mod. may have tried to write you and found the same restriction ? I have no idea. I know I would have preferred to have posted this in a private conversation.
I wish you all the best
Doug
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Ashermusic
Senior Member
Well, as you know while I respect you greatly and I understand your point of view, I still maintain that whatever the motivation, comments on the music are fair game, comments on someone's opinions are fair game, but attacks on anyone's personality, character, etc should not be tolerated and the moderators should:
1. Remove the posts
2. Inform the poster that he/she has crossed a line and tell them to knock it off.
3. Suspend them if they do not head it. Ban them if they continue.
And yes, I have been guilty of it myself and I deserved the consequences and criticism that came to me. In one case, I publicly apologized to the person.
What I continue to need to learn, and I am not alone here in this, it is not dishonest not to say everything you are thinking.
re-peat
Senior Member
Jay,
If comments on someone’s opinion are fair game, then my comments were the fairest in the land as they focused largely on someone’s opinion … of himself. And the remainder of my comments simply communicated my viewpoint that the musical encounter with JSG was, for me anyway, a very disappointing one. Develop both those themes into a few well-spiced paragraphs and you have more or less what I contributed to that thread.
Doug,
Thanks for that. I would like to say a lot more actually, but it would be mostly expressing agreement, gratitude and sympathy, so please consider all that deeply felt but not written out.
It appears that my thoughts ran along near identical lines as yours during the unfolding of that thread. The second I read ‘Asperger’s’ it was quite clear in which direction JSG’s cannonade was pointed.
Ironically — all the more so because he’s decided to join us here — the insinuation of me suffering from Asperger originates with none other than Jay “attacks on people’s personality should not be tolerated” Asher. He was the first to share this bit of remarkable diagnosis of me with the V.I.-public, back in 2009. (To be truthful: I admit to, on occasion over the years, having given cause to a justifiably concerned frown.) And since then people have kept raking the diagnosis up whenever it suited them. That there’s no truth to it has of course never bothered any one of these sanctimonious Preservers Of The Fair & Tactful Game.
So, Jay, back to you: I wouldn’t be so quick to claim the moral high ground here and wear your judgemental hat (alas your favourite headwear), if I were you. Not here, not now. You have no authority or prestige in these matters whatsoever.
_
If comments on someone’s opinion are fair game, then my comments were the fairest in the land as they focused largely on someone’s opinion … of himself. And the remainder of my comments simply communicated my viewpoint that the musical encounter with JSG was, for me anyway, a very disappointing one. Develop both those themes into a few well-spiced paragraphs and you have more or less what I contributed to that thread.
Doug,
Thanks for that. I would like to say a lot more actually, but it would be mostly expressing agreement, gratitude and sympathy, so please consider all that deeply felt but not written out.
It appears that my thoughts ran along near identical lines as yours during the unfolding of that thread. The second I read ‘Asperger’s’ it was quite clear in which direction JSG’s cannonade was pointed.
Ironically — all the more so because he’s decided to join us here — the insinuation of me suffering from Asperger originates with none other than Jay “attacks on people’s personality should not be tolerated” Asher. He was the first to share this bit of remarkable diagnosis of me with the V.I.-public, back in 2009. (To be truthful: I admit to, on occasion over the years, having given cause to a justifiably concerned frown.) And since then people have kept raking the diagnosis up whenever it suited them. That there’s no truth to it has of course never bothered any one of these sanctimonious Preservers Of The Fair & Tactful Game.
So, Jay, back to you: I wouldn’t be so quick to claim the moral high ground here and wear your judgemental hat (alas your favourite headwear), if I were you. Not here, not now. You have no authority or prestige in these matters whatsoever.
_
Ashermusic
Senior Member
Indeed, you are right I did that Piet, but I should not have and would not do so now. I regret it and if I have not previously apologized, I do so now.
If I don't stick to that I should be reprimanded by the moderators and told to knock it off.
And again, just my view, comments on someone's opinion of themself instead of just their opinion of their skills, is crossing a line that should not be allowed. And "well spiced" is a more benign description than I would assign them.
If you disagree, then you disagree.
If I don't stick to that I should be reprimanded by the moderators and told to knock it off.
And again, just my view, comments on someone's opinion of themself instead of just their opinion of their skills, is crossing a line that should not be allowed. And "well spiced" is a more benign description than I would assign them.
If you disagree, then you disagree.
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