chocobitz825
Senior Member
this was generated in the early days of AIVA. I can't say if it's gotten any better since then, but in retrospect, I could see using some of the motifs and creating a new piece.
What are some ‘intelligent’ orchestration tools to help break me out of my box?
- Thread starter DennyB
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this was generated in the early days of AIVA. I can't say if it's gotten any better since then, but in retrospect, I could see using some of the motifs and creating a new piece.
szczaw
Senior Member
It lacks clear direction, motifs are meandering, but I actually find that stimulating. My brain wants to 'finalize' it, take it somewhere.
this was generated in the early days of AIVA. I can't say if it's gotten any better since then, but in retrospect, I could see using some of the motifs and creating a new piece.
chocobitz825
Senior Member
And that’s the current state of AI in a nutshell. It lacks clear direction, but you can find something to work with if it sparks the desire to ‘finalize’ it.
this is 100% AIVA generated, with just random VI’s applied. It’s flaws and limitations are clear. To Willowtree’s point the potential for educational use and practice or just outside perspective is there.
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szczaw
Senior Member
That's all I want from computer assisted 'composing' just enough of cohesion and musicality to get things going in my head.
Oh, sweet summer child... calm your emotions down
Your reply is the exact kind of thing I'd expect from a forum full of useless elitists. If your argument is "we've done it this way for hundreds of years, this is how it's supposed to be", then I urge you to immediately get rid of every piece of modern technology, and go back to the Neolithic period. Go become a hunter/gatherer, because that's how it has always been. "Can you name one caveman that used a computer??" That's all you're saying.
Stuck in tradition, and unwilling to think outside of your bubble. "B-b-but JOHN WILLIAMS", oh shut up.
AI composing apps have a place, and you just feel like it threatens you for some reason. Can it write a song for you? Not a good one. Can it drive inspiration and get you out of your comfort zone? Absolutely. You people just like circlejerking about the way things used to be and are completely ignorant to the last decade of computing. Fortunately, the old guard will die off in the next decade, yourself included.
@that woman: your sarcasm is garbage
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SupremeFist
Senior Member
I prefer useful elitists myself.
ProfoundSilence
Senior Member
If there was actually a way to prevent that person from being able to access the website it would be 100% worth the entertainment.
Fortunately for them - every obvious method is merely a minor inconvenience.
Either way, irony still stands - they are here wasting their time replying to me when I didn't bother reading a single character past this sentence.
mopsiflopsi
Active Member
This sounds very similar to a discussion I had with @ProfoundSilence a while ago, regarding learning methods for orchestration. I'm happy to report that one didn't devolve into name calling.
I'm a total noob here on this forum and coming into this from a software background. When it comes to AI I think people sometimes have simultaneously too generous and too narrow a definition of what it is. Most AI today is no where near being intelligent. Traditional AI, like the kind used in most video games and whatnot, rely on a combination of brute force computation and statistical analysis to approximate real intelligence. In other words, most AI just follow a list of instructions, branching at various points based on runtime conditions (however many the developer could think of accounting for), to arrive at a destination. It's not "intelligence" in human sense, it's just an algorithm.
The thing about algorithms is that they actually don't require a computer to exist. You could just as well think of Bach chorale style writing as an algorithm with a finite set of rules about voice leading. You could think of counterpoint as an algorithm. You could think of the spectratone chart guidelines on instrument doubling as a potential set of instructions for building an algorithm. In fact the entire point of music theory appears to be identifying the hidden algorithms that help with making music that sounds good. Scales? Algorithm. Modes? Algorithm. Harmonic function? Algorithm. Modulation by diminished 7ths? Algorithm. There is no single "The Algorithm for Making Music", just like there is no single algorithm for sorting a list of random integers or for finding a path from A to B. Doesn't mean you can't write one to help you in *some* situations.
So I can hardly see what the fuss is about when someone uses a computer algorithm to help them navigate all this. The masters did it too. They just didn't use computers for it.
I'm a total noob here on this forum and coming into this from a software background. When it comes to AI I think people sometimes have simultaneously too generous and too narrow a definition of what it is. Most AI today is no where near being intelligent. Traditional AI, like the kind used in most video games and whatnot, rely on a combination of brute force computation and statistical analysis to approximate real intelligence. In other words, most AI just follow a list of instructions, branching at various points based on runtime conditions (however many the developer could think of accounting for), to arrive at a destination. It's not "intelligence" in human sense, it's just an algorithm.
The thing about algorithms is that they actually don't require a computer to exist. You could just as well think of Bach chorale style writing as an algorithm with a finite set of rules about voice leading. You could think of counterpoint as an algorithm. You could think of the spectratone chart guidelines on instrument doubling as a potential set of instructions for building an algorithm. In fact the entire point of music theory appears to be identifying the hidden algorithms that help with making music that sounds good. Scales? Algorithm. Modes? Algorithm. Harmonic function? Algorithm. Modulation by diminished 7ths? Algorithm. There is no single "The Algorithm for Making Music", just like there is no single algorithm for sorting a list of random integers or for finding a path from A to B. Doesn't mean you can't write one to help you in *some* situations.
So I can hardly see what the fuss is about when someone uses a computer algorithm to help them navigate all this. The masters did it too. They just didn't use computers for it.
mopsiflopsi
Active Member
To add to my last post: Another crucial thing about algorithms is transparency. If you are not the one who built the algorithm or you can't peek under the hood to understand why it's spitting out the result that it is spitting out, THEN you will be a slave to the algorithm. Even then, it may not be the worst thing to happen. I mean, if my career depends on my ability to sort a random set of integers in the fastest way possible, yeah, I better know what's happening under the hood so I can use the correct algorithm for the correct circumstance. If I'm a hobbyist just having fun with this stuff? Don't tell me I need a computer science degree just to have fun at a hackathon.
szczaw
Senior Member
Computer aided composing will eventually be a part of every major daw. For purists:
Mozart, used automated composition techniques in his Musikalisches Wurfelspiel ("Dice Music"), a musical game which "involved assembling a number of small musical fragments, and combining them by chance, piecing together a new piece from randomly chosen parts" (Alpern, 1995). This very simple form of "algorithmic" composition leaves creative decisions in the hands of chance, letting the role of a dice to decide what notes are to be used.
Mozart, used automated composition techniques in his Musikalisches Wurfelspiel ("Dice Music"), a musical game which "involved assembling a number of small musical fragments, and combining them by chance, piecing together a new piece from randomly chosen parts" (Alpern, 1995). This very simple form of "algorithmic" composition leaves creative decisions in the hands of chance, letting the role of a dice to decide what notes are to be used.
mopsiflopsi
Active Member
This opens up the question of artistic ownership, which perhaps is the real sticking point for "purists". Am I an artist if I just followed some instructions to create passable music? How much creative leadership did I exercise in doing that? If all I did was to push a button to make a sad song, is that song really mine any more than a random song I heard on the radio was really written by/for me?
And then how is that different than following voice leading rules? I wrote a short piece the other day as a string voicing exercise with BBCSO, and while I'm sure it doesn't compare to "the masters", it did sound like something an average person could describe as somber and poignant. But the truth is, I had zero emotional engagement with it while creating it. I wasn't feeling sad or poignant. No AI was involved but... was that really me communicating something?
How much did Mozart put his heart and soul into each one of his 600+ published works? How much was done on auto-pilot?
My personal test of art is: 1) Did this piece communicate something to someone? 2) Did the creator really intend to communicate that thing? If the answer is yes to those two questions, then yes, an artist was involved. If something was communicated but it was really accidental or procedural, then there was no artistry involved there.
The methods of creation, AI assisted or otherwise, have nothing to do with it.
Tatiana Gordeeva
Long time member
Of all times, from Bach's fugues, through Kirnberger's and Mozart's dice games all the way to the current A.I.-based tools, composers, as other artists, have used generative, algorithmic, random, genetic, chaotic,... tools to create works of beauty that can touch our soul. And of course, now, it's all about the latest tools, computers.
My personal training is in classical and avant-garde music, studying the masters, etc. but I embrace with great pleasure all the new composing tools now offered to us.
You can either be ahead of your time
or be of your time, 
or else, let Time pass you by. 
It somehow reminds of that phrase: "A timid person is frightened before a danger, a coward during the danger, and a courageous person afterwards." Not the same but strangely applies here too.
I'm also reminded of the words of Francis Bacon, the painter, who wrote:
All painting is an accident. But it’s also not an accident, because one must select what part of the accident one chooses to preserve.
Whatever tools you use, the ultimate decision as to "does it constitute art?" is (still) yours to make!
My personal training is in classical and avant-garde music, studying the masters, etc. but I embrace with great pleasure all the new composing tools now offered to us.
You can either be ahead of your time
or be of your time, or else, let Time pass you by. It somehow reminds of that phrase: "A timid person is frightened before a danger, a coward during the danger, and a courageous person afterwards." Not the same but strangely applies here too.
I'm also reminded of the words of Francis Bacon, the painter, who wrote:
All painting is an accident. But it’s also not an accident, because one must select what part of the accident one chooses to preserve.
Whatever tools you use, the ultimate decision as to "does it constitute art?" is (still) yours to make!
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Tatiana Gordeeva
Long time member
As a fun additional note about A.I. in general... Since we are debating its merits (or lack thereof) for music I thought that it is revealing to let it, the A.I., debate itself, this time on something else.
I received today an article about IBM Project Debater, an A.I. that can debate any subject with humans. In this extract from 2019 it debates about funding preschools. You can watch the whole video or jump to the A.I.'s closing arguments here:
And remember: we are just starting with A.I.
The source article is this one https://www.zmescience.com/future/ai-debate/
I received today an article about IBM Project Debater, an A.I. that can debate any subject with humans. In this extract from 2019 it debates about funding preschools. You can watch the whole video or jump to the A.I.'s closing arguments here:
And remember: we are just starting with A.I.
The source article is this one https://www.zmescience.com/future/ai-debate/
mopsiflopsi
Active Member
The amount of time this would save me on the internet...
Tatiana Gordeeva
Long time member
Agreed !
youngpokie
Senior Member
It's creepy and amazing at the same time.
Also, this AI talks about preschools with the exact same voice that calls me a few times a week with threats about my car insurance, social security and the millions I can make working from home...
To veer from the ”intelligent” aspect of the original question, there is an app called Chordbot which, while it can do more than this, is just great for having a screen where a great number of chords in a key that you enter are displayed. You can easily hear various harmonic combinations from simple to complex and hum melody lines over them. As I said earlier it is not as intelligent as the other tools mentioned, and won’t help too much with orchestration, but it is good to jar you away from harmonic ruts.
