VI Control Professionals in Film Scoring, Is abusive behavior really an industry standard?

[construer]

If I understood correctly, the message of these two videos is that film scoring environment was a lot more crammed with narcissists and that now it gets better; that there are still toxic people in that environment and that a person should either learn how to deal with them, or to move away from them if she/he doesn't want to put up with that.

I did some search but failed to verify for sure that Martin H. is really Christian. If that is true...

This attitude 'I'm dickhead, deal with it' divides customers/audience into two categories:

those who have self-respect and remove themselves from toxic environment; and
those whose self-esteem is low enough to put up with abusive behaviour.

This makes me sad, because I had plans to use Labs in a classroom and to use my entry (made with Labs only) to show them that they don't have to use cracked software to achieve musically meaningful result.

 

[construer]

Reading all this, I'm so grateful for my current situation. I am doing uncredited work for one international media agency. Getting briefs, delivering, getting notes, doing changes... Occasionally, I get unsatisfied because I can not use my work to build my career. But I never asked about handling clients. Now, I am actually grateful to my producer for sheltering me from toxic environment.

 

[dzilizzi]

Maybe I've just worked and lived in too many abusive situations, but sometimes I think people have become too, I don't know, soft? I didn't get the backlash over the winner. I even entered and didn't win. That was fine. Suddenly an entry everyone here thought had a chance of winning was bad? Spitfire was awful for picking something that broke the rules? And the people actually making the final decision aren't even discussed?

I see comments here about directors wanting one thing but realizing it wasn't what they wanted when they heard it. And? It wasn't abusive. But these contest commenters complaining saying there was cheating, they were entitled to have their piece heard by JJ Abrams, David is a pro and it is an inside job, etc..., is not abuse? And people responding that this is how contests like this work is abusive?

I guess I don't get this. There is real abuse going on out there. But at some point we need to find a way to differentiate between real abuse and "my feelings were hurt". Anyway, maybe you can explain it to me.

 

[JoelS]

@construer Addressing a few points:

If you can find a trusted mentor, it probably doesn't hurt, assuming that person is worth the trust and knows what they're talking about. It's not a necessity, more a luxury, and probably something of a rarity these days. With all the prospective composers around, I think the mentor supply is probably rather thin.

That said, you'll often find people on this forum who are really helpful. Case in point, @dciurlizza Daniel Ciurlizza was really helpful to me two years ago (... two years?! Time moves fast) and I'd never spoken to him before that, didn't know him, came into contact here on this forum. There are people willing to help, at all levels of the industry.

Just be wary of any situation where there is a power dynamic at play. Mentor-student relationships can turn problematic fast, or can be rewarding and fulfilling. Caution seems advisable.

I did some search but failed to verify for sure that Martin H. is really Christian. If that is true...

I don't know what you're referring to here, but Christian has done a lot to advance the world of sampled instruments, and is very generous of his time in making educational material and discussing industry issues. The amount of flak he takes for being a visible industry pro who will speak off the cuff is really just... mind boggling to me. The sheer amount of free materials he has made available to people is enormous.

Do people want industry professionals to be bland robots who don't have an opinion and don't behave like human beings? Does success necessitate some abdication of personality for fear of offending people?

I don't know Christian personally, I haven't ever spoken to him, but I have tremendous respect for his contributions to the art of using sampled instruments in music and educating media composers.

Look at the overall picture. This also extends to personal attacks directed at other developers which I have seen many, many times here. These people are not out to swindle you, cheat you, or otherwise harm you. It's possible to simultaneously be a businessman, artist, and regular human who reacts in ways humans do.

The VI sampling world is still pretty small (though 11k entries to that contest rewrites my perception of its size somewhat) and the people at the forefront of it are still people and not SONY or some faceless corporation.

The sentiment that seems to pit them as antagonists and/or abusers really bothers me.

I'm not saying they are above criticism, but they are also not the enemy.

 

[Henu]

Maybe I've just worked and lived in too many abusive situations, but sometimes I think people have become too, I don't know, soft?

Couldn't agree more. Not talking about this topic particularly, but it seems that nowadays so many people feel so goddamn entitled to everything it makes me laugh. Or cry. Could also be a generation thing- being born in the late 70's myself has given me good dose of cynicism as a generational trait and protection against that, hah!

Besides, the first rule in "personal feelings in professionality" is that there are no personal feelings in professionality.

 

[Jimmy Hellfire]

Besides, the first rule in "personal feelings in professionality" is that there are no personal feelings in professionality.

People get pretty personal in professional environments all the time. Some of them will then call you unprofessional if you're bothered by it.

 

[Henu]

That's exactly my point. Let's not be those abovementioned unprofessionals ourselves.

 

[construer]

Maybe I've just worked and lived in too many abusive situations, but sometimes I think people have become too, I don't know, soft? I didn't get the backlash over the winner. I even entered and didn't win. That was fine. Suddenly an entry everyone here thought had a chance of winning was bad? Spitfire was awful for picking something that broke the rules? And the people actually making the final decision aren't even discussed?

I see comments here about directors wanting one thing but realizing it wasn't what they wanted when they heard it. And? It wasn't abusive. But these contest commenters complaining saying there was cheating, they were entitled to have their piece heard by JJ Abrams, David is a pro and it is an inside job, etc..., is not abuse? And people responding that this is how contests like this work is abusive?

I guess I don't get this. There is real abuse going on out there. But at some point we need to find a way to differentiate between real abuse and "my feelings were hurt". Anyway, maybe you can explain it to me.

I would like to see this conversation going in more general fashion then arguing about specific event. There are threads for that.

For me, if producer/director change his mind and then accuse me of being a problem, how dare I to obey his wishes, I would find it abusive. And is from a psychological viewpoint. I actually, witnessed for the first time such behavior in a music composing context, let alone in a competition context. Let alone someone accusing 10k people of being a problem. And that excuse: that is how media world works. I wondered is it really?

Of course, in psychotherapeutic work I've heard a lot about such behavior and witnessed how damaging it is. Even on a small scale.

I might be snowflake, being sheltered from dealing with media clients directly. Or being someone who people can't drag into a fight (their words). Are we all soft? Even people who have significant careers?

 

[Henu]

The word "abusive" has suffered a great inflation lately in my books. It's a bit like at some point everyone who as an asshole was labeled instantly as "narcist" by people. It became the expression for people who were pricks, even though psychologically it didn't hold water almost at all.

The faster we can just label all those people as "assholes" in our minds and move on without losing our marbles, the better. No-one's going to shelter us from them or give us a prize for tolerating their behaviour, but it is solely our job to wipe these people from our lives. Not our moms', friends' (unless our friends run a motorcycle club) or colleagues' task, but ours. Also, Karma is a bitch.

 

[construer]

It sucks for the composer, who doesn't know what was wrong or if anything was really 'wrong' and it just didn't strike the right chord for the library based on their subjective (and often undisclosed) criteria. It's frustrating, but not abusive.

The most "pissed off" I got when a producer asked for a 10 min piece, and then changed it to a 8 min. I was 'silently pissed off' because I had to remove the best part, full orchestral part, that was THE best part I've probably ever written up to that point. He probably picked up that I was pissed off because when he actually decided to extend video to 12 min he didn't tell me, just copied one part one more time.

I don't find this to be abusive. Changing minds and creative solutions has to be possible until release. If he attacked me for writing 10 min piece, instead of 8 min piece without mentioning anything about final duration being open, I would for certain attack him back.

 

[Martin S]

Just to clarify to OP : I'm a dirt poor (formerly professional) Conservatory educated Jazz Double bassist from Denmark, and a hobbyist composer who happens to like Mr. Henson's products a lot. I've no affiliation with Spitfire or Mr. Henson and have never met him and probably never will.

I just watched the two videos I linked to in my previous post a week ago and thought they were touching some subjects that were also addressed in your Original post. I do think, however, that Mr. Henson's video regarding 'weaponising empathy' is of great value, and I'd recommend watching it more than once.

As I've no experience with the tv/film/composer industry (and also live in a highly unionized country) I'm appalled at the apparent level of abuse/lack of tolerance/empathy/consideration etc. in this very industry that I hear about from VI members, as well as in Mr. Henson's videos. If I ever had a dream (which I don't) of entering that industry, I'm now certain that I'll stay away and continue to make music entirely for my own pleasure

I do believe though, that this narcissistic B.S. of this (any) industry needs to be smothered to death by empathy, which is basically what I hear Mr. Henson is advocating for in the above mentioned videos (overly simplified, I know).

Alas, the narcissistic element has infiltrated every corner of the world over the last 2 - maybe 3 - decades and is flourishing like never before. I see it everywhere I go : people living with their heads deeply and firmly located in a certain part of their anatomy !! It's like a new normal.. In my naivety I still believe it's possible to reverse engineer this selfish and stupid behaviour, and make empathy the highest (and smartest) priority.

 

[NoOneKnowsAnything]

Is then, having a mentor you trust a must? Could it be advisable solution to inexperienced (young) people?

It’s ideal if you can get one, but figuring out how to get a top pro to be your mentor is very challenging and requires a lot of luck.

 

[NoOneKnowsAnything]

I value so much these comments. I'm currently making curriculums for the next school year and this thread gives me a lot of ideas about teaching social skills and how to protect oneself from internalizing abusive behavior and spreading it around even if a person must work in an abusive environment.

I agree that having a choice is a key. Being dependent of any one job is taking chances. I constantly think about leaving my teaching job and completely commit to psychotherapy and composing, but that job does provide me an opportunity to choose what I'm doing and how much. And it did save me from being dependant of abusive psychotherapy supervisor.

It is clear to me that a lot of abuse is happening. Just the other day, an actress friend asked a producer why her fee for a theater play is late, and got an answer: "Why didn't you called earlier?! Now, money is spent." And that's the final answer.

What was new for me was a structure of the abuse from my example. Usually, people will bully you into doing something they ask for but you don't want. Like working for free, doing work you didn't sign up for, providing favors or sexual pleasures... It was strange to encounter that someone is attacking someone for willingly doing what she/he was asked for.

Changing mind or ditching creative solution completely is acceptable to me. I find it normal part of creative process. Once, I was doing this long ad for a business venue. Producer asked for baroque music. I suppose he associated Bach's music with grandiose spaces. It was clear to me that it won't work, but I did what he wanted. Of course he changed his mind, several times. However, he never attacked and insulted me for making what he asked for in the first place.

Yes, my post is inspired by Spitfire/Westworld competition and how it was subsequently handled. And how most accomplished professionals were supportive of abuse. But I didn't want it to be about this particular event and about this particular people. I'm interested in underlying processes which is why my example is the underlying structure of communication that took place and not the actual conversation that happened. And I was baffled with a conclusion that it is just how media industry works. In #MeToo movement, even those whose career was made by the abuser spoke against him.

For some time, I believe that the only way to prevent abusive behaviors is by influencing broader environment. Through unions or some other organizations, or raising voice like in #MeToo movement.

In my country, however, the only available way is some kind of self protection from such environment, since even those organizations that exists and in theory serves to protect victim are corrupted. This, I believe, will be my task for this summer: creating a series of workshops about how to recognize abusive behavior, others' and own too, how to separate it from creative stress and process, how to process it and how to react.

All those comments are so valuable source of ideas. Thanks.

I strongly suggest you keep your teaching job.

 

[Cathbad]

Trying to see things from an apparent asshole's perspective can go a long way to clearing up unsatisfactory issues. I remember thinking this when there were stories in the news about Harvey Weinstein screaming and shouting at people on the job.

A while back, I used to run a small ensemble. Folks, you would not BELIEVE how difficult it is to get 6 people in a room at once. And this was for well-paying work. I did all the booking & marketing, wrote all the charts, even set out the stands and chairs. ALL they had to do was turn up and get paid but noooo...

That's just a sextet gigging nationally. I certainly never screamed or shouted at anyone but I can quite understand someone's frustration getting the better of them when trying to pull together a multi million $ international movie production.

 

[dzilizzi]

I would like to see this conversation going in more general fashion then arguing about specific event. There are threads for that.

For me, if producer/director change his mind and then accuse me of being a problem, how dare I to obey his wishes, I would find it abusive. And is from a psychological viewpoint. I actually, witnessed for the first time such behavior in a music composing context, let alone in a competition context. Let alone someone accusing 10k people of being a problem. And that excuse: that is how media world works. I wondered is it really?

Of course, in psychotherapeutic work I've heard a lot about such behavior and witnessed how damaging it is. Even on a small scale.

I might be snowflake, being sheltered from dealing with media clients directly. Or being someone who people can't drag into a fight (their words). Are we all soft? Even people who have significant careers?

Well I'm using this as an example because it seems the losers got abusive first. When an producer says we are not picking your entry because we liked this one better, do you really have the right to get abusive when the producer didn't say anything bad about your entry, but just I like this one better? Because it seems to me the producers were personally attacked - and the winner definitely was - for no other reason than the producer liked the product. This was what I don't understand. I'm being told these attacks are not abuse but that the response is?

Sorry, I'm not wanting to bring this up specifically which is why I'm trying to put it in general terms. But it is the same if you put in a sample into a sample library in the hopes of getting a job and you don't get it. Is is really abusive to be told this doesn't work for the client and find they went for something different? Or would it be abusive to come here and write posts and posts about how awful this sample library company is because they had the audacity to ask you to submit and then not use it?

I really think if you can't handle a "No" with no further explanation and consider it abuse, you have a problem. Because that is what I'm hearing from all this.

 

[construer]

I strongly suggest you keep your teaching job.

Public education is a toxic environment in its own right. Instead of tuning itself to a student's growth needs, it tries to forcibly squeeze her/him into the curriculum goals. And I'm so conflicted because of being an agent of such behavior. But that is offtopic.

 

[construer]

(My english is hitting its limits. Some sentences might be unintelligible. I'm sorry for that.)

I agree that it is hard to speak in the general terms about any particular event. My general approach is to publicly speak about behaviors and not persons. It takes a lot of time to get to know someone, and it might be never possible. In my thought process, attaching names to behaviors helps me organize my thoughts and speaks nothing about that person per se.

It also helps understanding aggressor, which helps in doing any business with her/him. In this case, my gaze was point to environment. I know that my approach can come across as too soft, but also opposite approach can come across as too insensitive. The difference is subjective and is dependant on life experience in a particular environment.

I'm also (as a psychotherapist) trained to catch double binding elements (mixed messages) in a clients narrative, usually in a small details. That's maybe why some things look huuuge to me.

There was a couple double binding elements in this event:

"Here is what we want." - "Why did you write what we want? We didn't want that."
"We are about community." - "Fuck you our existing and potential community."

Double binding, even at a minor scale, is quite distressing. Minor double binding distress ends faster, but can be very intensive and damaging. And it always makes a mind of a person who got hit by it to go into overdrive. Which then leads to violent and out of place reactions like attacking a winner in person, to wrongly attacking for nepotism... It was made even worse by the source-of-distress choosing to go deaf, so people tried to find any channel to be heard.

The only legit attack is the one aimed at the contest for ditching its own formal rules. That is why contest was abusive first.

The difference between hurt and abuse is tricky one, and there is no consensus about definitions. I see abuse (abnormal use) as betrayal of a social contract person agreed to: if a person signed up for marriage, she/he didn't sign up for physical violence; if a parent sign up for sending her/his kid to school, she/he didn't sign up for a kid to be sexually violated; if a person signed up for delivering music, she/he didn't sign up for being gaslighted.

In a case of any contest, formal rules are even legally binding. I have never witnessed any competition that publicly threw its own rules into a dirt. Someone suggested a class action lawsuit. It would probably take place if entrants paid for this contest.

Social contract betrayal that this contest did is for sure not as severe as other examples I've mentioned. I was struck by a sheer volume of it: thousands and thousands of people were harmed. And I was even more struck by support this behavior received from the industry professionals. Which pointed my eyes to environment in which all this happened.

(EDIT: A few grammatical errors.)

 

[Henu]

Wait....I'm a bit slow and it just hit me. Is this all about the Spitfire contest?

 

[thesteelydane]

@construer Addressing a few points:

If you can find a trusted mentor, it probably doesn't hurt, assuming that person is worth the trust and knows what they're talking about. It's not a necessity, more a luxury, and probably something of a rarity these days. With all the prospective composers around, I think the mentor supply is probably rather thin.

That said, you'll often find people on this forum who are really helpful. Case in point, @dciurlizza Daniel Ciurlizza was really helpful to me two years ago (... two years?! Time moves fast) and I'd never spoken to him before that, didn't know him, came into contact here on this forum. There are people willing to help, at all levels of the industry.

Just be wary of any situation where there is a power dynamic at play. Mentor-student relationships can turn problematic fast, or can be rewarding and fulfilling. Caution seems advisable.


I don't know what you're referring to here, but Christian has done a lot to advance the world of sampled instruments, and is very generous of his time in making educational material and discussing industry issues. The amount of flak he takes for being a visible industry pro who will speak off the cuff is really just... mind boggling to me. The sheer amount of free materials he has made available to people is enormous.

Do people want industry professionals to be bland robots who don't have an opinion and don't behave like human beings? Does success necessitate some abdication of personality for fear of offending people?

I don't know Christian personally, I haven't ever spoken to him, but I have tremendous respect for his contributions to the art of using sampled instruments in music and educating media composers.

Look at the overall picture. This also extends to personal attacks directed at other developers which I have seen many, many times here. These people are not out to swindle you, cheat you, or otherwise harm you. It's possible to simultaneously be a businessman, artist, and regular human who reacts in ways humans do.

The VI sampling world is still pretty small (though 11k entries to that contest rewrites my perception of its size somewhat) and the people at the forefront of it are still people and not SONY or some faceless corporation.

The sentiment that seems to pit them as antagonists and/or abusers really bothers me.

I'm not saying they are above criticism, but they are also not the enemy.

Completely agree. I once received a very abusive email because I dared give away a free instrument that required the full version of Kontakt. I know of another developer who literally received death threats for the same reason.

Luckily I grew in the classical conservatory environment so I have pretty thick skins

 

[construer]

Wait....I'm a bit slow and it just hit me. Is this all about the Spitfire contest?

I thought that I wrote in some comment. This post is inspired (triggered?) by it, and by conclusion that it is just how industry works.
Having limited experience (I've literally worked with 3 producers in 15 years, one local, two foreign) I needed the insights about this.

Reading comments, I got an idea, a kernel of idea actually, about creating workshops for my school about dealing with toxic environment. Now I got interested in personal stories about most beautiful and most abusive behavior they experienced, and about consequences of those behaviors.

Since I'm new on forum (registered in february), I don't know vi-control culture well. Are people willing to share personal stories (with names and brands omitted, of course)?