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Thinkspace MFA/MA vs Berklee Online Certificate

Noland said:
As well as basic music theory short courses, there are more advanced webinars and an elective module covering some deeper theory at TSE. The 2 theory short courses gave me enough knowledge for entry to the orchestration course and my knowledge continues to grow on the course.

Mixing and mockup techniques are well covered too and there are webinars from mixing engineers who have been in the industry for years and you can have 1-2-1s to discuss mixing or mockup or theory too. Whichever course you pick you have access to all the other material from the other masters courses and short courses and the extensive webinar library so even if it’s not specific to the course you pick you can get access to the info.

Orchestration is of course well covered and there are again very knowledgeable tutors presenting the videos and webinars.
World music I’m not sure is covered specifically from what I’ve seen so far but there are discussions and examples of using all variety of instruments in your scoring.

I’m sure you’ll get whatever you need from Thinkspace and as I haven’t used Berklee I can’t comment but I’m sure they’ll have you covered too, I doubt you’ll go wrong with either but speaking from my own point of view I’ve not regretted joining the course at Thinkspace and am thoroughly enjoying it!
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Thanks for chiming in! Super informative - especially as Thinkspace's site doesn't go into as much detail on what is being covered. For example, one of the elective options for the MA is "Advanced Composition" - but no information on what that entails.

By the way, when I was speaking with the TSE advisor, they were pretty clear that the application for the MFA (which includes the Orchestration component, similar to the standalone MA in Orchestration) required a 2 min fully notated score with full orchestra plus a professional sounding MIDI mockup of that. Not sure if that was just for the MFA application, or if you had a similar requirement for the MA? It implied a pretty substantial knowledge of composition form and orchestration was needed to even apply.
 
ALittleNightMusic said:
Thanks for chiming in! Super informative - especially as Thinkspace's site doesn't go into as much detail on what is being covered. For example, one of the elective options for the MA is "Advanced Composition" - but no information on what that entails.

By the way, when I was speaking with the TSE advisor, they were pretty clear that the application for the MFA (which includes the Orchestration component, similar to the standalone MA in Orchestration) required a 2 min fully notated score with full orchestra plus a professional sounding MIDI mockup of that. Not sure if that was just for the MFA application, or if you had a similar requirement for the MA? It implied a pretty substantial knowledge of composition form and orchestration was needed to even apply.
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I did have to submit a few mockup pieces and a written score too as well as doing a test piece for the MA. I had also done the old Cinematic Orchestration short course prior to applying so that helped a lot. I think they will give you feedback on your application submission and what you need to improve in order to be accepted if you don’t get accepted straight away, they’re very helpful with the application process.
 
I signed up for the MA or MFA (I cannot remember which one) a while back. Since I didn't have a formal musical education, I had to submit a piece of music for a video game brief (they sent a video with no music and I had to score it, basically) and I had to send them my examples of my work. I did that and they were pleased with that. The final task was to submit an essay on a piece of music. It was the 007 theme. At the time, I was baffled at why such a thing was important for being considered into the course, but I went along and did it. I am assuming that it was not good enough for them because I never heard back after I submitted it, if I recall correctly. I was actually pretty sad because I wanted to take the course, but I moved on and continued with life.
Seeing this thread has piqued my curiosity and interest in the course once more, but maybe Berklee would be a better choice? I don't know.
 
Arcane Master said:
I signed up for the MA or MFA (I cannot remember which one) a while back. Since I didn't have a formal musical education, I had to submit a piece of music for a video game brief (they sent a video with no music and I had to score it, basically) and I had to send them my examples of my work. I did that and they were pleased with that. The final task was to submit an essay on a piece of music. It was the 007 theme. At the time, I was baffled at why such a thing was important for being considered into the course, but I went along and did it. I am assuming that it was not good enough for them because I never heard back after I submitted it, if I recall correctly. I was actually pretty sad because I wanted to take the course, but I moved on and continued with life.
Seeing this thread has piqued my curiosity and interest in the course once more, but maybe Berklee would be a better choice? I don't know.
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Thanks for sharing - that's a pity. I will say my interaction with Thinkspace advisors has been extremely prompt and generous (on their side) in terms of their feedback to me.

Also, Berklee's advisors called me about 20 minutes after I signed up for the course to welcome me and ask if I had any questions.
 
Jackdaw said:
For anyone wondering about musical level needed for Thinkspace's MA Professional Media Composition, this is my story:

I just got accepted via Recognition of Prior Learning (RPL), meaning that I have no prior undergrad. It is possible but you have to put in some extra work and also explain yourself and your skills in the cover letter. I also had to pass IELTS English test (costs €365 here in Finland) because English is not my first language.
I have no musical education whatsoever and I don't play any instrument besides banging block chords and noodling melodies with my midi keyboard. My score reading abilities are at very newbie level, pretty much nonexistent. Back in 2019 when approaching my fifties, I just decided I want to learn composing and at last do something I always dreamt about. So, I am completely self-taught. For those with formal musical education I may look like a clown in this business, but I am doing this for me, not for others. If someone likes my work, it is just a bonus.
Your portfolio, in my understanding, plays the main role here. You can check my youtube channel (in my signature) if you want to know what level was enough to get accepted in. You don't need to be a master, they just want to see the potential in you. Afterall, if you were a master, why would you need more education. I'd like to mention that it is not only about your composing skills, you need to have some understanding in production side also to be able to start learning full speed from day one.

Remember that this is for Professional Media Composition, other courses may and will have different requirements.

I was eagerly waiting to start in January, but for unexpected events in my life (got laid off...) I may not be able to do it for time being. I'm still waiting for some things to clear up but it seems quite evident that I will have to pass and re-apply somewhere in the future again...
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I’m sorry you got laid off. I’m also sorry that it’s delaying your educational journey. Having said that, it’s chest from what you’ve written that you’re very focussed and I have no doubt you’ll find a way to move forward soon. I hope so.
 
cleverr1 said:
I started the ThinkSpace Education PMC MA in January 2023 part time over 3 years. So far I've only had enough time to follow the curriculum of assignments, but there are webinars and challenges beyond that if you do have the time. The feedback they provide after each assignment is very detailed and credible as the tutors are industry professionals. The 1-2-1s with the tutors are invaluable. On my 3 year schedule I get only a 30 min session every 3 weeks, so I have to prepare well to get the best out of them. TSE are constantly updating the learning material to follow industry trends. There's a strong focus on research for every assignment upon which practical decisions need to be justified to get the better marks. As an MA/MFA student you get access to an enormous amount of learning material for life which includes content for every course they run.

I'm not sure at my age if I could ever become a professional media composer, but if there's any potential then based on what I've seen I'm confident I'm in a good place.
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Hey, I'm wondering how your course is going? I'm tempted. :)
 
Greyscale said:
I was looking into Thinkspace myself. Have a handful of Short Courses and I really enjoy them and they offer a wealth of information. So I think going for a Masters would be a great thing to do.

I looked into Berklee for the Music Theory and Composition Certificate, because from the curiculum it looks right up my ally, but after watching the sample lesson (which are not from these courses) I am really not sure and to be honest I was a little shocked of how they present the content. Maybe they've chosen the wrong lessons as an example, because if the whole course (Film Scoring 101 and Orchestration 1) is like these sample lessons, it is very underwhelming for what they cost.

The information they provide is not my point, it is the way it is presented. If I want a Text only experience I can have it way cheaper in reading Adler, Korsakow or any other big textbooks on Orchestration (for this example) and I have the same information without spending 1,5K on a 12 week course.
On the other hand Thinkspaces Cinematic Orchestration Course has aged a little bit, but they provide you with also a lot of text, but interviews, videos with professional musicians which explain playing techniques etc. and that for a very reasonable price. Because of the age of the course they took it out of their programm now, but I am really happy that I have it.

I don't want to bash on Berklee because, there must be a reason for this institution to be so "famous" amongs composers, but the sample lessons really pushed me away from it.

Has anyone taken that Music Theory and Composition Certificate or Courses and can tell me more about their way of teaching, because I haven't given up the thought about taking it. :whistling:
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Yeah, the Berklee courses start ridiculously simple .. but most sky-rocket from there (at least to some degree). I've been working professionally scoring to picture (TV) for a while and I did the Film Scoring 101 on a whim. I'm glad I did, I actually learned loads. I'm doing Orchestration 2 at the moment and am loving it. It's pretty detailed but the big thing for me is how the material is laid out. It's super methodical. For those with a mind like mine it's perfect. It does depend a little on which tutor you get and ... it's still, at the end of the day, very expensive.
 
John R Wilson said:
I took the MA Orchestration for Films, Games and Television one. :)
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Hi John (and anyone else who may have some knowledge/opinions on this?), I was just wondering if I can please ask you something specific about this course (TS MA Orchestration) as I couldnt figure this out from the program webpage. Does it include detailed score analysis? and if it does does it have content somewhat loosely comparable with this course (module) that Berklee provide? (For example analysing the music of different films like Gone With the Wind etc)

online.berklee.edu

Film Score Analysis

Learn how film composers use an effective musical vocabulary while you expand your own overall knowledge of film, and start seeing films through the lens of a filmmaker.
online.berklee.edu online.berklee.edu

My best
 
ALittleNightMusic said:
As I wanted a more formalized foundation, I'm starting with some music theory courses even though I've studied much of the material on my own. The hope is with the classes, I'll absorb even more - and have more practical application practice than if I was just using a book (and I have plenty of those). The really nice thing with Berklee is they post a detailed curriculum for each course (links below) and I can see they are covering some topics that none of the commonly mentioned courses here cover.

My current plan is (assuming I like the instructional style and I'm getting benefit out of it):

Music Theory and Composition 2 -> Music Theory and Composition 3 -> Orchestration 1 -> Orchestration 2

And then I will have a decision to make on whether I want to switch over to Thinkspace - or continue with Berklee, as they offer a number of similar courses to Thinkspace's Professional Media Composition MA, specifically:

Film Scoring 101
Music Composition for Film and TV 1
Music Composition for Film and TV 2

But then Berklee goes seemingly beyond what Thinkspace covers with courses like:

Music Theory and Composition 4
World Music Composition Styles
Film Score Analysis (graduate level)
Compositional Voice Development in Film Scoring (graduate level)
Stylistic Adaptations in Film Scoring (graduate level)
Mixing the Film Score (graduate level)
Composing the Orchestral Film Score (graduate level)
Orchestrating the Film Score with Live Sessions (graduate level)

Looking at the curriculums, I'm seeing a number of topics I've been interested in that I think may be out of scope of Thinkspace's MA program (though TSE graduates will hopefully chime in and clarify). Topics like orchestration, world music, compositional form, deeper theory concepts like parallelism and serialism, mixing, and mockup techniques.
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@ALittleNightMusic I hope you don't mind me asking this but I couldn't help spotting on another thread when I was looking up about ScoreClub that you have studied on that (a post from back like 4 years ago I think?). I just wanted to ask you (if it's not too personal a question and you dont mind me asking) how come you've decided to study Berklee's Music Theory and Composition 2 course having taken Alains courses already? Do you feel for instance that having taken Alain's courses you still need to start at this level of theory study with Berklee? (rather than Scoreclub having prepared you for a higher level of study for example) Or is it more for a refresher or something perhaps? Again I hope you don't mind my curiosity here, it's just that I've been looking at doing studies myself and I'm trying to gage the best way forward for me, so I find your choice here really interesting to me.

To share with you a bit of context behind my question I have been considering the following possible trajectory of study myself:

Either:
• Berklee Professional Certificate Music Theory and Composition (plus Counterpoint course)
OR (been considering as cheaper alternative)
• ScoreClub (all courses)

Possibly followed by (if I should be fortunate enough to get in)...

• ThinkSpace MFA Media Composition & Orchestration
OR
• ThinkSpace MA Orchestration AND Berklee Graduate Certificate Compositional Approaches to Film Scoring (in either order)

Do you perhaps have an opinion, given your experience so far, on which of the former would be recommended out of the two options (with me just picking one) of either ScoreClub or Berklee Certificate Music T&C?

Also if you happen to have an opinion on the latter two options I'd likewise love to hear that too (given your research into this area) if possible please :)

Kind regards
 
Following this thread. I applied for the ThinkSpace MA in Professional Media Composition to start part time in the fall. I was very tempted to go for the dual MFA in Professional Media Composition and Orchestration but I am not ready for the orchestration part yet. Maybe in the future.
 
Simmo said:
@ALittleNightMusic I hope you don't mind me asking this but I couldn't help spotting on another thread when I was looking up about ScoreClub that you have studied on that (a post from back like 4 years ago I think?). I just wanted to ask you (if it's not too personal a question and you dont mind me asking) how come you've decided to study Berklee's Music Theory and Composition 2 course having taken Alains courses already? Do you feel for instance that having taken Alain's courses you still need to start at this level of theory study with Berklee? (rather than Scoreclub having prepared you for a higher level of study for example) Or is it more for a refresher or something perhaps? Again I hope you don't mind my curiosity here, it's just that I've been looking at doing studies myself and I'm trying to gage the best way forward for me, so I find your choice here really interesting to me.

To share with you a bit of context behind my question I have been considering the following possible trajectory of study myself:

Either:
• Berklee Professional Certificate Music Theory and Composition (plus Counterpoint course)
OR (been considering as cheaper alternative)
• ScoreClub (all courses)

Possibly followed by (if I should be fortunate enough to get in)...

• ThinkSpace MFA Media Composition & Orchestration
OR
• ThinkSpace MA Orchestration AND Berklee Graduate Certificate Compositional Approaches to Film Scoring (in either order)

Do you perhaps have an opinion, given your experience so far, on which of the former would be recommended out of the two options (with me just picking one) of either ScoreClub or Berklee Certificate Music T&C?

Also if you happen to have an opinion on the latter two options I'd likewise love to hear that too (given your research into this area) if possible please :)

Kind regards
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I will go more in-depth in a couple of months - but in general, while ScoreClub was very interesting, I've found the Berklee Online content and learning approach to be far more comprehensive and effective (for me). More so than anything else I've come across (though all of those resources did teach me things that I am able to apply - even to my Berklee work). That includes Thinkspace's material (though I am not part of their MA or MFA).

There are different educational philosophies and approaches as well. Berklee Online, much like most American institutions, relies on weekly reading, graded assignments, exercises (with answer keys), quizzes and tests, along with live classes with the professor. Other places, like ScoreClub, take the approach of a seminar - you watch and listen, make some notes, and then you're on your own for the most part. The Thinkspace material I've come across is quite similar to this - watch Norwin Ludwin go through the orchestration he did for a cue (not particularly well-presented IMO by the way - take a Steve Rothstein score study class for example and he puts most others to shame) and pick up a few tidbits along the way (this was part of their post-grad teaser week). In their MFA / MA, it seems to be more of the UK approach where you have to do a practical and you have a tutor to discuss things with 1:1. Each approach may be the right one for you - but I've found for my own retention - and application - Berklee's approach is far more comfortable and effective.

Lastly, it depends on what you are trying to get out of things. If you want relatively surface-level understanding of musical concepts, how to apply those when writing film music, etc., there are many resources out there that could give you that. I don't particularly care about making a career as a media composer - I am primarily interested in becoming a better musician and composer. Undoubtably, Berklee's classes have improved my musicianship significantly - which is not something I can say for ScoreClub or Thinkspace or most other things I've tried (though I'm not discounting their value completely - they all can help in some way). But Berklee is a significantly more expensive option and I recognize not everybody has the means to go that route. As long as you are willing to do the work and put the time in to let the concepts soak in for you, I think most educational resources out there can teach you at least something. I think the other option would be private lessons with somebody you admire and respect. Good luck to you!
 
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ALittleNightMusic said:
I will go more in-depth in a couple of months - but in general, while ScoreClub was very interesting, I've found the Berklee Online content and learning approach to be far more comprehensive and effective (for me). More so than anything else I've come across (though all of those resources did teach me things that I am able to apply - even to my Berklee work). That includes Thinkspace's material (though I am not part of their MA or MFA).

There are different educational philosophies and approaches as well. Berklee Online, much like most American institutions, relies on weekly reading, graded assignments, exercises (with answer keys), along with live classes with the professor. Other places, like ScoreClub, take the approach of a seminar - you watch and listen, make some notes, and then you're on your own for the most part. The Thinkspace material I've come across is quite similar to this - watch Norwin Ludwin go through the orchestration he did for a cue (not particularly well-presented IMO by the way - take a Steve Rothstein score study class for example and he puts most others to shame) and pick up a few tidbits along the way (this was part of their post-grad teaser week). In their MFA / MA, it seems to be more of the UK approach where you have to do a practical and you have a tutor to discuss things with 1:1. Each approach may be the right one for you - but I've found for my own retention - and application - Berklee's approach is far more comfortable and effective.

Lastly, it depends on what you are trying to get out of things. If you want relatively surface-level understanding of musical concepts, how to apply those when writing film music, etc., there are many resources out there that could give you that. I don't particularly care about making a career as a media composer - I am primarily interested in becoming a better musician and composer. Undoubtably, Berklee's classes have improved my musicianship significantly - which is not something I can say for ScoreClub or Thinkspace or most other things I've tried (though I'm not discounting their value completely - they all can help in some way). But Berklee is a significantly more expensive option and I recognize not everybody has the means to go that route. As long as you are willing to do the work and put the time in to let the concepts soak in for you, I think most educational resources out there can teach you at least something. I think the other option would be private lessons with somebody you admire and respect. Good luck to you!
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Thank you so much, your personal insight into this is honestly really really appreciated and super helpful! What you shared about your experience of Berklee contrasted with ScoreClub (and TS also actually) has really made me think (and possibly rethink the way I was leaning regarding study options actually, I'll have to have a think about all this you've said). Food for thought for sure. Thanks for your time it's really appreciated.

Ooh P.S have you any thoughts at all on Marc Jovani having been a teacher on the Berklee Online courses Orchestration 1 + 2 (I believe they were) - as listed on his LinkedIn.
I believe I read he'd said somewhere that he had developed his course Symphonic Virtual Orchestration (the first course he offered with CC I believe) originally for Berklee and they wanted to buy it from him but weren't going to implement it into their curriculum for 2 years so he set up his own thing outside of Berklee.
I have the SVO (lite) course (which I picked up cheaply and yet to begin). I'm also aware he sells an "Orchestration 1" course which is somewhat more down the traditional Orchestration than SVO I think, and I'm assuming (guess) that this would be modelled on the Orchestration 1 course he taught at Berklee perhaps?
Do you happen to have any possible insight on those offerings and their link to the Berklee Online Orchestration courses he taught? And perhaps more importantly have you taken either of them and have an opinion on them? (You strike me as someone who perhaps has, my intuition is telling me haha) would love to hear any thoughts you may have?
I'm guessing even if he taught Orch 1 exactly/nearly the same as the Orch 1 Berklee course that the delivery method because of the difference in institutions could be noticeable right? I dont know? Again thanks for your time
 
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Simmo said:
Ooh P.S have you any thoughts at all on Marc Jovani having been a teacher on the Berklee Online courses Orchestration 1 + 2 (I believe they were) - as listed on his LinkedIn.
I believe I read he'd said somewhere that he had developed his course Symphonic Virtual Orchestration (the first course he offered with CC I believe) originally for Berklee and they wanted to buy it from him but weren't going to implement it into their curriculum for 2 years so he set up his own thing outside of Berklee.
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I contacted Berklee a couple months ago about these claims. I will be and have to be narrow about what I say here, but MJ is not an actual orchestrator and not an actual Berklee instructor in the full sense of the word. He would not be hired at Berklee proper in a million years. He may have worked for Berklee in Spain only, online only, for a bit only (I will update this when further info becomes available), but Berklee never tried to buy anything from him. They have been training composers, arrangers and orchestrators for a very long time now using their own systems and are not at a loss for how to do so.
__________
 
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Cletus McBone said:
I contacted Berklee a couple months ago about these claims. I will be and have to be narrow about what I say here, but MJ is not an actual orchestrator and not an actual Berklee instructor in the full sense of the word. He would not be hired at Berklee proper in a million years. He worked for Berklee in Spain only, online only, for a bit only, because of "something", and Berklee never tried to buy anything from him. They have been training composers, arrangers and orchestrators for a very long time now using their own systems and are not at a loss for how to do so.
__________
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Thank you for sharing that's really interesting to hear
 
Simmo said:
Thank you so much, your personal insight into this is honestly really really appreciated and super helpful! What you shared about your experience of Berklee contrasted with ScoreClub (and TS also actually) has really made me think (and possibly rethink the way I was leaning regarding study options actually, I'll have to have a think about all this you've said). Food for thought for sure. Thanks for your time it's really appreciated.

Ooh P.S have you any thoughts at all on Marc Jovani having been a teacher on the Berklee Online courses Orchestration 1 + 2 (I believe they were) - as listed on his LinkedIn.
I believe I read he'd said somewhere that he had developed his course Symphonic Virtual Orchestration (the first course he offered with CC I believe) originally for Berklee and they wanted to buy it from him but weren't going to implement it into their curriculum for 2 years so he set up his own thing outside of Berklee.
I have the SVO (lite) course (which I picked up cheaply and yet to begin). I'm also aware he sells an "Orchestration 1" course which is somewhat more down the traditional Orchestration than SVO I think, and I'm assuming (guess) that this would be modelled on the Orchestration 1 course he taught at Berklee perhaps?
Do you happen to have any possible insight on those offerings and their link to the Berklee Online Orchestration courses he taught? And perhaps more importantly have you taken either of them and have an opinion on them? (You strike me as someone who perhaps has, my intuition is telling me haha) would love to hear any thoughts you may have?
I'm guessing even if he taught Orch 1 exactly/nearly the same as the Orch 1 Berklee course that the delivery method because of the difference in institutions could be noticeable right? I dont know? Again thanks for your time
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I have access to a lot of the Cinematic Composing material. Marc has a particular style and approach for conveying information - some might called it frenetic. It does not go into much detail for my liking, but then again there's also a lot of YouTube content for you to make your own mind up. I'll just say that my professors thus far at Berklee Online have been excellent and very knowledgable. In addition to the course curriculum, they all have also shared their own material they have created on the topics. The ones I have had also happen to teach at the Boston campus.
 
ALittleNightMusic said:
I have access to a lot of the Cinematic Composing material. Marc has a particular style and approach for conveying information - some might called it frenetic. It does not go into much detail for my liking, but then again there's also a lot of YouTube content for you to make your own mind up. I'll just say that my professors thus far at Berklee Online have been excellent and very knowledgable. In addition to the course curriculum, they all have also shared their own material they have created on the topics. The ones I have had also happen to teach at the Boston campus.
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Thank you. Thanks for your time and all the very best with your studies :)
 
For the Berklee Film Score Analysis course linked above - do students get to study the actual full score for cues or are they doing the score analysis by ear? Both are important, but I do really like being able to see the score for study.
 
wsimpson said:
For the Berklee Film Score Analysis course linked above - do students get to study the actual full score for cues or are they doing the score analysis by ear? Both are important, but I do really like being able to see the score for study.
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That's a very good question, would love to know this too
 
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