The VSL Duduks , What do you think about them ?
- Thread starter muziksculp
- Start date
Beat Kaufmann
Senior Member
Then you probably (unfortunately) use the presets from VSL. They are all based on some positioning impulse responses that probably come from MIR (certain character).
I can only recommend to select the preset "DEFAULT" (at the very bottom of the preset menus) and then set the desired position yourself with the various microphones and the panner. You will get the sound you were used to from VSL 10 to 20 years ago. Direct, fresh, present and without coloration.
By the way, this "recipe" is valid for all SYNCHRON and SYNCHRON-ized libraries.
Have fun
Beat
By the way:
- Here is the sound of the free FUJARA-Flute (Default)
- Here is some Handel-Music (SYNCHRON Elite-Strings + SYNCHRON Woodwinds - all instr. with DEFAULT)
(...without the certain cahracter)
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I agree in large
. Though I do use the presets in BBO, for the ease of use.
Beat Kaufmann
Senior Member
Hello together
Ben is right, there are no IRs in play with the synchronous libraries in connection with the VSL presets. Nevertheless, I also notice again and again the mentioned "character" in connection with the presets. >> again recommendation: use "DEFAULT" preset and make yourself what you want.
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This thread made me buy the VSL-Duduk and try it out. Basically, the instrument is recorded very quietly. So there is quite a bit of amplification needed. This is already a bit better if you use "Default". Using the microphones "Close" and "Mid" gives me a sound similar to the recordings in Youtub videos. To achieve a duduk sound like you hear in typical music pieces, you have to put some effort into the VSL duduk. Adding compression and punch is the order of the day. But then at the same time the air noises come a bit strongly to the fore. The sound is off and it sounds like "bottle" as mentioned above, I have not heard. The library would need a little more embellishments, this is actually a shortcoming in my opinion.
---------------------
By the way, I decided to buy a duduk myself
As a saxophone player, I'll probably get a few notes relatively quickly. As it is, you have to reckon with about 400 euros.... in half a year it will be Christmas...
Have fun with my demo
Beat
Ben is right, there are no IRs in play with the synchronous libraries in connection with the VSL presets. Nevertheless, I also notice again and again the mentioned "character" in connection with the presets. >> again recommendation: use "DEFAULT" preset and make yourself what you want.
-------------------------
This thread made me buy the VSL-Duduk and try it out. Basically, the instrument is recorded very quietly. So there is quite a bit of amplification needed. This is already a bit better if you use "Default". Using the microphones "Close" and "Mid" gives me a sound similar to the recordings in Youtub videos. To achieve a duduk sound like you hear in typical music pieces, you have to put some effort into the VSL duduk. Adding compression and punch is the order of the day. But then at the same time the air noises come a bit strongly to the fore. The sound is off and it sounds like "bottle" as mentioned above, I have not heard. The library would need a little more embellishments, this is actually a shortcoming in my opinion.
---------------------
By the way, I decided to buy a duduk myself
As a saxophone player, I'll probably get a few notes relatively quickly. As it is, you have to reckon with about 400 euros.... in half a year it will be Christmas...Have fun with my demo
Beat
blaggins
Senior Member
Wow, that's such a different sound than if you load up the mix presets. Thanks for sharing your mixing wisdom @Beat Kaufmann. The air sound is very in your face this way, but the character of the instrument is much improved.Hello together
Ben is right, there are no IRs in play with the synchronous libraries in connection with the VSL presets. Nevertheless, I also notice again and again the mentioned "character" in connection with the presets. >> again recommendation: use "DEFAULT" preset and make yourself what you want.
-------------------------
This thread made me buy the VSL-Duduk and try it out. Basically, the instrument is recorded very quietly. So there is quite a bit of amplification needed. This is already a bit better if you use "Default". Using the microphones "Close" and "Mid" gives me a sound similar to the recordings in Youtub videos. To achieve a duduk sound like you hear in typical music pieces, you have to put some effort into the VSL duduk. Adding compression and punch is the order of the day. But then at the same time the air noises come a bit strongly to the fore. The sound is off and it sounds like "bottle" as mentioned above, I have not heard. The library would need a little more embellishments, this is actually a shortcoming in my opinion.
---------------------
By the way, I decided to buy a duduk myself
Have fun with my demo
Beat
I have to say I love VSL products, they are a huge part of my template, and I’m pretty convinced that there is a problem with the way the samples load with the Duduk library.
For a start the legato patches sounds like two instruments are playing at the same time, creating phasing issues, almost like a chorus effect, also adding room and space. Comparing those with the long notes, they just do not sound the same (or like they are in the same room).
The long notes do not have this problem, they have a beautiful breathy tone, but variation in the Vel.XF do not change the timbre at all. It sounds like it’s adding more of the same sample, and seem to do the same thing as the expression.
What is interesting is when you play the grace notes, you get the rich timbre generally associated with the Duduk, timbre that you simply cannot achieve (and I tried many different options) with the legatos or longs notes.
More revealing are the dynamic patches, as you can hear the tone going from low breathy to rich and powerful. Here all the dynamic layers are in display, giving the full range and beauty of the sampled instrument. These medium and higher dynamic layers again cannot be achieved with the legatos, long and short notes patches which indicate there could be an issue in loading the right samples.
It sounds like the player is only loading the low velocity samples for some reason and adding them on top of each other creating issues like the blowing in a bottle effect.
Overall this library is, in my opinion, very far from the amazing quality that VSL provides with its other libraries. I wonder if the samples costumers are getting could have been corrupted somehow, I’m not an expert, but to my ears this library doesn’t make sense.
I purchased it a couple of days ago and planning on sending them an email tomorrow before I return it. I hope they will give it a double check.
For a start the legato patches sounds like two instruments are playing at the same time, creating phasing issues, almost like a chorus effect, also adding room and space. Comparing those with the long notes, they just do not sound the same (or like they are in the same room).
The long notes do not have this problem, they have a beautiful breathy tone, but variation in the Vel.XF do not change the timbre at all. It sounds like it’s adding more of the same sample, and seem to do the same thing as the expression.
What is interesting is when you play the grace notes, you get the rich timbre generally associated with the Duduk, timbre that you simply cannot achieve (and I tried many different options) with the legatos or longs notes.
More revealing are the dynamic patches, as you can hear the tone going from low breathy to rich and powerful. Here all the dynamic layers are in display, giving the full range and beauty of the sampled instrument. These medium and higher dynamic layers again cannot be achieved with the legatos, long and short notes patches which indicate there could be an issue in loading the right samples.
It sounds like the player is only loading the low velocity samples for some reason and adding them on top of each other creating issues like the blowing in a bottle effect.
Overall this library is, in my opinion, very far from the amazing quality that VSL provides with its other libraries. I wonder if the samples costumers are getting could have been corrupted somehow, I’m not an expert, but to my ears this library doesn’t make sense.
I purchased it a couple of days ago and planning on sending them an email tomorrow before I return it. I hope they will give it a double check.
mducharme
Senior Member
This is because they only recorded one layer in the Duduk library, so the XF really isn't a a crossfade, it's a volume adjustment. And the layer that is recorded is at the edge of silence, pp or p or whatever, which is why it is so breathy. It unfortunately limits its usefulness to me to Duduk lines that are near the edge of silence. None of the Duduk libraries out there are perfect (I have pretty much all of them), so VSL had a big opportunity with this, and it is a shame that they stuck to only recording it playing very very quietly.
I feel like it would have been much better if they recorded two layers, or barring that, if the layer that was recorded was recorded at a bit louder of a dynamic than they actually did. It's a lot easier to simulate pp with timbre adjust on an mp or mf sample than it is to try to simulate mf by filtering a pp sample.
I'm hoping they go back and do additional recordings for this - maybe a lyrical legato Duduk recorded the same way as their new Synchron Flute1/Oboe2/Clarinet?
Oh waw, I’m surprised they would record only one layer for such an instrument… Makes sense then…
Thanks, sounds nice, I’m actually debating between getting this one or the Ilya Efimov Armenian Duduk…
scifo76
New Member
I've heard good things about Efimov's Duduk. Demos sure sounds great.
mducharme
Senior Member
Probably the three best ones at the moment are the Ancient Era Persia, the Efimov, and the Impact Soundworks. They all have their pluses and minuses. I don't find any of them are a particular "home run". The Impact Soundworks is the most flexible with the most layers if you put the time in to doing the shaping, but the Persia and Efimov have a bit better playability out of the box. Lots of people love the Efimov and rave about it, and I love the Efimov Uilleann Pipes, but I was disappointed by how noisy the Duduk was. The actual performance is really good, but the air noise differs a lot with every pitch and sometimes the transition from lots of air to little air can be jarring, if the Duduk is exposed, and the sudden brick wall change in air sound makes it sound very artificial. In context in a larger mix, in a non-exposed part where the air transition can be covered up, the Efimov is probably great.
The Efimov also only has one dynamic layer when you use vibrato, non vibrato it has two layers. So if you crossfade to vibrato or things like this, it actually can make the note get quieter, because you're crossfading from a two layer non vib to a single potentially quieter layer with vibrato.
I would suspect we may also see an Ancient Era Persia II at some point, as it seems due for an update (most of the others have gotten one in the same time frame).
The Efimov also only has one dynamic layer when you use vibrato, non vibrato it has two layers. So if you crossfade to vibrato or things like this, it actually can make the note get quieter, because you're crossfading from a two layer non vib to a single potentially quieter layer with vibrato.
I would suspect we may also see an Ancient Era Persia II at some point, as it seems due for an update (most of the others have gotten one in the same time frame).
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Virtuoso
Hoarder
Brilliant! This made me laugh out loud - Albinoni on a Duduk is priceless. It sounds like a duck having a seizure!
It would make perfect background music for a scene in a comedy film where someone is having a really horrible experience at a Turkish massage spa. 
Beat Kaufmann
Senior Member
Hello Virtuoso
I don't know exactly what kind of statement you actually want to make. I am happy so far that my "arrangement" could trigger "something". I was obviously able to evoke laughter (negative?) and the memory of a (negative?) spa experience.
Now, of course, there are always those who only like or even accept an original cast if possible. As good as they are right to see it that way, I count myself among the others who are a little more open. Personally, I think the Adagio is a brilliant piece that has already animated many different ensembles. In my opinion, all interpretations have something: they bring this brilliant composition to people. These special interpretations help spread the composition among people who otherwise wouldn't hear the "original"... So keep experimenting out there until everyone knows this Adagio.
What you hear here is (not ridiculous) creativity and a brilliant trigger: Albinoni's composition.
Some further interpretations
Have fun (if possible)
Beat
I don't know exactly what kind of statement you actually want to make. I am happy so far that my "arrangement" could trigger "something". I was obviously able to evoke laughter (negative?) and the memory of a (negative?) spa experience.
Now, of course, there are always those who only like or even accept an original cast if possible. As good as they are right to see it that way, I count myself among the others who are a little more open. Personally, I think the Adagio is a brilliant piece that has already animated many different ensembles. In my opinion, all interpretations have something: they bring this brilliant composition to people. These special interpretations help spread the composition among people who otherwise wouldn't hear the "original"... So keep experimenting out there until everyone knows this Adagio.
What you hear here is (not ridiculous) creativity and a brilliant trigger: Albinoni's composition.
Some further interpretations
Have fun (if possible)
Beat
I find it beautiful. In a way, the sound recalls me some kind of an Ennio Morricone western movie vibe.Hello together
Ben is right, there are no IRs in play with the synchronous libraries in connection with the VSL presets. Nevertheless, I also notice again and again the mentioned "character" in connection with the presets. >> again recommendation: use "DEFAULT" preset and make yourself what you want.
-------------------------
This thread made me buy the VSL-Duduk and try it out. Basically, the instrument is recorded very quietly. So there is quite a bit of amplification needed. This is already a bit better if you use "Default". Using the microphones "Close" and "Mid" gives me a sound similar to the recordings in Youtub videos. To achieve a duduk sound like you hear in typical music pieces, you have to put some effort into the VSL duduk. Adding compression and punch is the order of the day. But then at the same time the air noises come a bit strongly to the fore. The sound is off and it sounds like "bottle" as mentioned above, I have not heard. The library would need a little more embellishments, this is actually a shortcoming in my opinion.
---------------------
By the way, I decided to buy a duduk myself
Have fun with my demo
Beat
Virtuoso
Hoarder
No disrespect intended - it just caught me off guard to hear the familiar opening of the Adagio and then suddenly, a warbling Duduk playing the theme. Like an arrangement of Schindler's List for swanee whistle or The Lark Ascending on kazoo.
