That's it, you nailed it! That echos what has been my own experience and what I was trying to describe.
Recording and Rehearsing with Musicians at Your Home Studio
- Thread starter Louie
- Start date
@jcrosby, do you have any recordings of bowed string instruments you made (ideally, cello)? Raw tracks you would be willing or allowed to post after you revised your trapping with BAD panels? (If you weren't way on the east coast, I would just swing by with my cello and do a test recording).You can absorb a small room without deadening it, and make it sound surprisingly great. There are tons of hybrid absorber-diffuser products that do an excellent job. (Also known as Binary Amplitude Diffusers, which are now widely available. You'll also find them in tons of commercial spaces because they really do a surprisingly good job). You can also buy or make bass traps that have a membrane or material on the face, (hardboard for example). The membrane extends the bass absorption a bit, at the same time, it reflects midrange back into the room...
The great thing about panels like this is that they're ideal for smaller spaces, whereas the larger, more traditional types of diffusors aren't considered the best choice for smaller rooms...
I have a both types (B.A.D. and large traps with a hardboard face) in my studio. I replaced a bunch of absorption-only panels and they really did make a world of difference. The membrane panels sit near my speakers, (absorbing some speaker boundary reflection), and run along the rear of my space. The binary amplitude panels are scattered throughout my ceiling and sidewalls.
Additionally you can buy (or make) absorbers with a slatted surface (as you mentioned above)... Not to mention that there are heavier wooden acoustic surfaces/plates you can buy that offer any of the options above that you could mount as a face in front of standard absorbers...
RPG has some some great information on their site... GIK also has some useful information (as well as some great panels, I have their Alpha 2D's & their 'FlexRange' traps [5" & 7" deep])... If you do some digging there's plenty of research and math that supports the information you'll find at both of the links below...
Personally speaking, if I were in your situation the 1st place I'd start with is acoustics... It may cost you a few grand, but you'll at least know right away what to expect in terms of recording quality... You'd get an idea of how some these types of acoustic treatments would affect a custom space, and could even move any panels you bought in to one.. At the same time you might just be pleasantly surprised, and decide it's worth looking into some realistic compromises. (Which again, might have much more pleasant results than expected, without bankrupting yourself).
Decoding Diffusion -
We examine the various types of diffusion and how they are acoustically different from one another, from absorption, and from untreated reflective surfaces.www.gikacoustics.com
This is a touching tribute to cellist Lynn Harrell. He sadly passed away not long ago. I feel fortunate I saw him in concert before he passed.
It would be fair to say this is the cream of the crop of cellists today all playing this tribute together from their home studios/practice rooms during the pandemic. The recording quality is rough, no question. But it is more direct evidence that cellists gravitate to those domestic rooms that are on the more reverberant side. Some also have the book shelves which are not mathematical diffusers but do help break up the flutter echo off the walls and provide some absorption.
jcrosby
Senior Member
I wish I could, I'm actually not going to be back in Boston before Monday. I also don't play cello (the only stringed instrument I play is guitar...), and the only raw recordings I have are smaller percussion... But I do a lot of critical listening in my studio (I occasionally do some mastering for a few local artists) in addition to composing for trailers and production libraries...You can absorb a small room without deadening it, and make it sound surprisingly great. There are tons of hybrid absorber-diffuser products that do an excellent job. (Also known as Binary Amplitude Diffusers, which are now widely available. You'll also find them in tons of commercial spaces because they really do a surprisingly good job). You can also buy or make bass traps that have a membrane or material on the face, (hardboard for example). The membrane extends the bass absorption a bit, at the same time, it reflects midrange back into the room...
The great thing about panels like this is that they're ideal for smaller spaces, whereas the larger, more traditional types of diffusors aren't considered the best choice for smaller rooms...
I have a both types (B.A.D. and large traps with a hardboard face) in my studio. I replaced a bunch of absorption-only panels and they really did make a world of difference. The membrane panels sit near my speakers, (absorbing some speaker boundary reflection), and run along the rear of my space. The binary amplitude panels are scattered throughout my ceiling and sidewalls.
Additionally you can buy (or make) absorbers with a slatted surface (as you mentioned above)... Not to mention that there are heavier wooden acoustic surfaces/plates you can buy that offer any of the options above that you could mount as a face in front of standard absorbers...
RPG has some some great information on their site... GIK also has some useful information (as well as some great panels, I have their Alpha 2D's & their 'FlexRange' traps [5" & 7" deep])... If you do some digging there's plenty of research and math that supports the information you'll find at both of the links below...
Personally speaking, if I were in your situation the 1st place I'd start with is acoustics... It may cost you a few grand, but you'll at least know right away what to expect in terms of recording quality... You'd get an idea of how some these types of acoustic treatments would affect a custom space, and could even move any panels you bought in to one.. At the same time you might just be pleasantly surprised, and decide it's worth looking into some realistic compromises. (Which again, might have much more pleasant results than expected, without bankrupting yourself).
Decoding Diffusion -
We examine the various types of diffusion and how they are acoustically different from one another, from absorption, and from untreated reflective surfaces.
I've also had the pleasure of spending a couple of afternoons in an absolutely impeccable sounding mastering room. The experience was so eye opening that it lead me back down the acoustic rabbit hole. The stereo imaging in the mastering room genuinely blew me away (no surprise there), the sound was huge and enveloping. It wrapped around you, and the image was "tall", deep and larger than life, I can only describe it as the acoustic equivalent to being enveloped by the screen in an imax theatre...
Anyway, I became obsessed with getting the closest experience I could in my modestly small room. After replacing most of the panels in my space with the ones I mentioned perviously, I got as close as I believe is possible in a room like mine... It was a genuinely huge improvement from absorption only, and I achieved an enveloping image that seems to extend up to my ceiling and appears to wrap around you at times... (Keep in mind that I have a ridiculous amount of bass trapping. 18" in the back and corners, 12" in the front).
Anyway, I realize describing this on a forum sounds like hyperbole... After a bit of scrolling, the best example I've been able to find that's similar to what you're asking for is video of a sax player who redid his rehearsal/recording room after being really dissatisfied with how dead it was... Similar to a cello, the low mid of a sax tends to ring in small rooms, (and his is reeally small)... You can clearly hear how all of the midrange comes back, but you can also hear how there's a subtle, very short reflective quality that comes back as well... Hopefully this gives you an idea...
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Hey everyone,
So even though I've been dreaming about how nice it would be to build a "real" purpose-built studio, after reading books on studio building, inquiring on forums, and some hard thinking I wrote up a list of pros and cons, and the cons far outweigh the pros. My instinct is just to stay with a more minimalistic setup at home at this point in time, and for anything extra special and juicy as far as strings or ensemble recording, hire a professional recording engineer and nice acoustic space for a day or two at at time, keeping the option to continue doing rough mixes at home. I think it comes down to cost, location, and the huge fact that my focus is not engineering, but composition and musicianship. There are several lifetimes of work building craft and skill in just in those two areas.
Which brings me to an extension of the thread topic:
I have been re-doing the floor in the composing/mix room, and setup a temporary music space in my master bedroom, by moving in the bass trapping from the composing/mix room. And the pleasant surprise is, when setting up the trapping asymmetrical specifically for recording (and not mixing), this room is actually far better for recording. Can't account for this other than the room is not completely symmetrical, and opens into two other spaces including the hallway to the composing room, and a vanity area that extends into a walk-in closet on one side and bathroom on the other. So is effectively no smaller of a space and likely the semi-asymmetrical shape and openings better break-up the modal energy. Setting up in a corner and facing into the room, I've already recorded a nice acoustic guitar and upright bass capture that translate clear and clean. After applying more trapping to this corner, I recorded the cello by dangling a Sennheisder 441 from the soft mini-ceiling, and got the best capture yet mostly free of comb filtering and any low-end wolf tones. And it doesn't feel too dead or lifeless by playing facing into the room (sounds quite nice with a little Altiverb and BBCSO muted violins accompaniment
Nothing great, but at least a good start for a makeshift setup and room for improvement. I'm encouraged by these results, so the next step is to treat this room specifically for tracking and rehearsing/practicing. Bonus--the room is already relatively quiet (except during heavy airport take off time in the mornings) with two small windows with laminated glass inner sashes, and has modest but adequate floor space for rehearsals. The only drawback it is is closer to the HVAC system, but I already have a remote control, so not biggie to shut the system off when recording. The only thing to figure out next, is whether to DIY the treatment for this room, go with manufactured panels as a couple folks have suggested, or hybrid. Any any case, it's going to be some trial and error and tuning by ear and test recordings to get it the best it can be. I'm leaning in the direction of a GIK product that are stackable cubes that lock together that simulate fully trapped slat walls. They have test results that show even and full absorption down below the range of the cello, and the face plates have the BAD panel or binary amplitude diffusion for scattering and retaining some acoustic life like @jcrosby suggested. I'm thinking just stacking these as high as they will go against the existing painted drywall. The ceiling is angled so I might be able to call it done with hanging a small cloud over the corner of the recording area.
Edit: my spelling is atrocious.
Please let me know if anyone has experience with these stackable GIK Sound Blocks, positive or negative
www.gikacoustics.com
So even though I've been dreaming about how nice it would be to build a "real" purpose-built studio, after reading books on studio building, inquiring on forums, and some hard thinking I wrote up a list of pros and cons, and the cons far outweigh the pros. My instinct is just to stay with a more minimalistic setup at home at this point in time, and for anything extra special and juicy as far as strings or ensemble recording, hire a professional recording engineer and nice acoustic space for a day or two at at time, keeping the option to continue doing rough mixes at home. I think it comes down to cost, location, and the huge fact that my focus is not engineering, but composition and musicianship. There are several lifetimes of work building craft and skill in just in those two areas.
Which brings me to an extension of the thread topic:
I have been re-doing the floor in the composing/mix room, and setup a temporary music space in my master bedroom, by moving in the bass trapping from the composing/mix room. And the pleasant surprise is, when setting up the trapping asymmetrical specifically for recording (and not mixing), this room is actually far better for recording. Can't account for this other than the room is not completely symmetrical, and opens into two other spaces including the hallway to the composing room, and a vanity area that extends into a walk-in closet on one side and bathroom on the other. So is effectively no smaller of a space and likely the semi-asymmetrical shape and openings better break-up the modal energy. Setting up in a corner and facing into the room, I've already recorded a nice acoustic guitar and upright bass capture that translate clear and clean. After applying more trapping to this corner, I recorded the cello by dangling a Sennheisder 441 from the soft mini-ceiling, and got the best capture yet mostly free of comb filtering and any low-end wolf tones. And it doesn't feel too dead or lifeless by playing facing into the room (sounds quite nice with a little Altiverb and BBCSO muted violins accompaniment
Nothing great, but at least a good start for a makeshift setup and room for improvement. I'm encouraged by these results, so the next step is to treat this room specifically for tracking and rehearsing/practicing. Bonus--the room is already relatively quiet (except during heavy airport take off time in the mornings) with two small windows with laminated glass inner sashes, and has modest but adequate floor space for rehearsals. The only drawback it is is closer to the HVAC system, but I already have a remote control, so not biggie to shut the system off when recording. The only thing to figure out next, is whether to DIY the treatment for this room, go with manufactured panels as a couple folks have suggested, or hybrid. Any any case, it's going to be some trial and error and tuning by ear and test recordings to get it the best it can be. I'm leaning in the direction of a GIK product that are stackable cubes that lock together that simulate fully trapped slat walls. They have test results that show even and full absorption down below the range of the cello, and the face plates have the BAD panel or binary amplitude diffusion for scattering and retaining some acoustic life like @jcrosby suggested. I'm thinking just stacking these as high as they will go against the existing painted drywall. The ceiling is angled so I might be able to call it done with hanging a small cloud over the corner of the recording area.Edit: my spelling is atrocious.
Please let me know if anyone has experience with these stackable GIK Sound Blocks, positive or negative
Sound Blocks
Information and Client Profiles related to bass traps, acoustic panels, diffusors for home theater, recording studio, restaurant acoustics, listening rooms.
www.gikacoustics.com
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proggermusic
Keyboards and Woodwinds, Jazz-Funk-Ambient?
You have chosen wisely.
Making the most of what you have is undoubtedly the wisest course. And exploring different rooms at your disposal is extra wise! Sounds like a very good situation, although I understand it's a pain to rearrange furniture and acoustic treatment every time you record.
I don't have experience with the Sound Blocks in particular, but I have many, many GIK panels and they're uniformly excellent. I think they're a great company, everything I've had from them is absolutely pro. They know what they're doing. Safe bet, I'd guess!
Making the most of what you have is undoubtedly the wisest course. And exploring different rooms at your disposal is extra wise! Sounds like a very good situation, although I understand it's a pain to rearrange furniture and acoustic treatment every time you record.
I don't have experience with the Sound Blocks in particular, but I have many, many GIK panels and they're uniformly excellent. I think they're a great company, everything I've had from them is absolutely pro. They know what they're doing. Safe bet, I'd guess!
Thanks Progger. Yeah, I have a couple of their plain vanilla bass traps along with a ton of Real Traps I bought a number of years back and no complaints. But anytime there is a mechanical interface on this kind of thing, I ask around, referring to the locking rails. For the rails, it's not clear to me whether these are magnetic strips or a tab inside a t-slot, seems like magnetic strips. Also, the bottom module for each stack have two feet for stability. Wondering how sturdy these are and whether anybody has had these come loose or bust off? These are fairly new product line it looks like and I dislike being a beta tester. I like more to sit on the sideline and watch until the bugs are worked out and the price comes down
. Going to get in touch with them soon and find out more.Yes it will be really nice, and excited to have the second room, just a few steps away, tailored for acoustic instruments. Plus, if I ever move can either sell the GIK traps or carry with.
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proggermusic
Keyboards and Woodwinds, Jazz-Funk-Ambient?
If you do get some of those modular GIK thingies, post back about how you find them... I'm always curious about things like that. I need to do a big order through them soon, I need to put a cloud up on the ceiling over my recording space and I plan to get another movable bass trap gobo, as well. (Those things, by the way, do wonders. Crazy amounts of improvement in recording quality just by dialing in the position of the mic, myself, and a single gobo.)
Not a problem will keep ya' posted.
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jcrosby
Senior Member
I'm not familiar with those exact panels, (they're too new). That said, the 'tech' is the same as what's inside various panels I have. (I have some with a 'range limiter', and some with 2D faces)...Hey everyone,
So even though I've been dreaming about how nice it would be to build a "real" purpose-built studio, after reading books on studio building, inquiring on forums, and some hard thinking I wrote up a list of pros and cons, and the cons far outweigh the pros. My instinct is just to stay with a more minimalistic setup at home at this point in time, and for anything extra special and juicy as far as strings or ensemble recording, hire a professional recording engineer and nice acoustic space for a day or two at at time, keeping the option to continue doing rough mixes at home. I think it comes down to cost, location, and the huge fact that my focus is not engineering, but composition and musicianship. There are several lifetimes of work building craft and skill in just in those two areas.
Which brings me to an extension of the thread topic:
I have been re-doing the floor in the composing/mix room, and setup a temporary music space in my master bedroom, by moving in the bass trapping from the composing/mix room. And the pleasant surprise is, when setting up the trapping asymmetrical specifically for recording (and not mixing), this room is actually far better for recording. Can't account for this other than the room is not completely symmetrical, and opens into two other spaces including the hallway to the composing room, and a vanity area that extends into a walk-in closet on one side and bathroom on the other. So is effectively no smaller of a space and likely the semi-asymmetrical shape and openings better break-up the modal energy. Setting up in a corner and facing into the room, I've already recorded a nice acoustic guitar and upright bass capture that translate clear and clean. After applying more trapping to this corner, I recorded the cello by dangling a Sennheisder 441 from the soft mini-ceiling, and got the best capture yet mostly free of comb filtering and any low-end wolf tones. And it doesn't feel too dead or lifeless by playing facing into the room (sounds quite nice with a little Altiverb and BBCSO muted violins accompaniment
Edit: my spelling is atrocious.
Please let me know if anyone has experience with these stackable GIK Sound Blocks, positive or negative
Sound Blocks
Information and Client Profiles related to bass traps, acoustic panels, diffusors for home theater, recording studio, restaurant acoustics, listening rooms.
These should work just like the ones I have, but with a deeper low end response... (You might want to call them and make sure that the 10" is mostly insulation (which I'd imagine it is). If so these seem like a really good choice. I could see these being really useful for recording because you could essentially use them like gobos that have a diffuse reflective face...
The 'Range Limiter' is a hardboard face that covers the entire front of the trap (hidden by fabric). This makes the front fully reflective once you get up into the midrange, and extends the bass range a little.
The 1D/2D faces are the binary amplitude faces. 1D will scatter the mids/highs in one direction, 2D will scatter the mids/highs in two directions. ("Direction" being like an XY grid... "1D" will scatter along the X or Y axis depending on whether you rotate them 90 degrees or not. "2D" will scatter them on both the X and Y axis).
Also, here's something inexpensive you could do to test the waters before ordering anything... (I did this myself, it gave me a real world example of roughly what to expect...) You can buy a couple of cheap same-sized plywood, hardboard, or pegboard panels and place them in front of your existing panels to see just how reflective it makes them.
Hi Progger, just following up in case you are still curious about this topic.
After pricing out the GIK Sound Blocks, and doing further reading on DIY trapping, I wound up starting down the DIY path for the "live room". I got this design from John Brandt's resources page:
Resources - Jhbrandt
OUR Resources For the ones with a deeper interest in the field of acoustics, here is a list of technical data, recommended articles, readings and links. If you have questions, comments, and/or suggestions on any of the material available, please feel free to contact us. All of the resources...
jhbrandt.net
Not sure if you are familiar with him but he's a fairly well known studio designer that has done many pro and home studio designs. On his resources page there is a free, complete detailed drawing set including acoustical testing results of what is called a "208" broadband trap with slats. The materials are standard, fairly cheap and they are simple to build. They stand 8' tall, but are light enough for 1 person to easily move around. I went 12" thick instead of 8" and it is a free standing unit. I have OK DIY carpentry skills and tools, but do have excellent blueprint reading skills so easy to figure out, but definitely time consuming to build the first one and used muscles I haven't used in a while!
The "108" trap is the same, but without slats (all the slats do is scatter some of the mid and high frequencies so as not to have too much of a "muffled" or eerie feeling when in the room).
So far I built my first "108". I'm going to build probably 2 or 3 "108s" and the rest "208s" (with slats). Since my labor is "free" and they look pretty nice this was the sensible route for me.
I'll post some pics after I get the "208" built and then some more after all of them are installed if there is any interest.
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proggermusic
Keyboards and Woodwinds, Jazz-Funk-Ambient?
Good on ya, that's a great way to go! Some great studios I know built their treatment themselves, it's definitely the most economical way to do itI don't have the space (or, honestly, the inclination) for woodwork, so I'm happy to pay the pros for it. But that John Brandt page looks like a great resource!
thesteelydane
Bunker Samples
Indeed. I used to rent an actual bunker, but that was obviously VERY location specific. At any rate, there’s a lot to be said for having a proper pro studio at home, being able to work whenever. The opposite of that is also true, however.Maybe this idea is a bit far fetched and the feasability will depend on your location, but there are certain organisations who rent out real estate to individuals as an anti-squatting measure.
I was able to rent an empty theater for €275/month including gas and electrical for 2 years, with which I could do what I wanted as long as you abide to the rules of the lending agreement.
The pros of this particular space was that it was without neighbours, the ceilings were high and had dampening material in them, so when closing the curtains and adding some basstraps, it sounded great. The main floor was around 20 x 10 meters.
Here ya' go, just got started not too long ago!
Built a few "108" broad bands, and now converting the closet in to a deep bass trap. Still many more "208" broad band traps to go!
proggermusic
Keyboards and Woodwinds, Jazz-Funk-Ambient?
Nice work!! Good luck! Gotta love the pink fluffy stuff... good for your electric bills, too.
