Poll: Orchestra-Samplelibraries, are you ready for Beethoven?!

[fahl5]

In preparation for a Beethoven project, I did the as short as brilliant Prometheus Overture op43 with 11 different sample orchestras and would like to hear and - if you like - also to discuss your opinion about which sound is best suited for Beethoven's music.

To allow an unbiased musical judgment based exlusivly on what you hear, I didn't name the Librariy-Producers yet.

You can listen the 11 renderings here:
(broken link removed)

Click to read more...

 

[ProtectedRights]

Pheww I think all of them sound rather terrible, some of the much too dry. All of them could use some more velocity / controller tweaking and mixing.

 

[fahl5]

OK those who judge nearly 50 minutes of music in general in less than 20 minutes of time unveil a realy "deep" examination and understanding of what they are talking about.

I hope you understand, that this is of course not the reaction I have asked for. The question was "which is best Samplelibrary for Beethoven" and I am sorry to say you simply completly missed to answer it.

 

[nolotrippen]

I don't think "all of them sound rather terrible" is fair, but neither is the question. It's just too much audio information to process effectively. I like the idea of what you're doing, but try editing each down to about a minute (I know, edit Beethoven?). They do this in commercials all the time. Then there would only be eleven minutes to consider. Just my two hemidemisemiquavers.

 

[fahl5]

I don't think "all of them sound rather terrible" is fair, but neither is the question. It's just too much audio information to process effectively. I like the idea of what you're doing, but try editing each down to about a minute (I know, edit Beethoven?). They do this in commercials all the time. Then there would only be eleven minutes to consider. Just my two hemidemisemiquavers.

I think you are right. To be honest, I have made the testing for me and my personal expirience how I feel, the different libraries are able to respond to the needs of Beethovens indeed demanding and brilliant music.

But still I thought, if might have been perhaps for one or another (less superficial) of interest, since you can really see how capeable the different libraries are to realise real music which is more than just soaring swells and hammering ostinatos, but melodies, virtuosity etc.

Thanks for your answer.

 

[Billy Palmer]

From listening to 4 secs, D, G + I sound the best

 

[Jeremy Spencer]

There's no way I'm going to listen to every single track in is entirety, I merely skimmed through each one (no offence). To my ears, "A" sounded the best.

 

[ProtectedRights]

My point is, I think each rendition could be improved a lot with further editing. So judging "which library is best" isn't really possible with these examples.

 

[dzilizzi]

The problem with this question is that a very good VI player/orchestrator could make almost any VI library sound good with Beethoven. Whereas, someone like me who still can't figure out how to get the strings to work with the modwheel will not be able to make any library sound good. I don't know where your abilities stand.

The other problem I have its that I don't think one library will work. There's a reason people buy so many libraries. I'm on 3 and so far they all have synthy moments.

 

[Royosho]

Are all the examples using the same MIDI data with different sample libraries?

 

[dzilizzi]

I have to say that overall, none of the strings sounded good, though the shorts did sound good on some. And there were some really nice sounding runs. So I voted based on the winds and brass. After listening to A and B, I only listened to portions from the rest, though I tried to pick the same areas. I'd probably go with H and J.

 

[Eptesicus]

In preparation for a Beethoven project, I did the as short as brilliant Prometheus Overture op43 with 11 different sample orchestras and would like to hear and - if you like - also to discuss your opinion about which sound is best suited for Beethoven's music.

To allow an unbiased musical judgment based exlusivly on what you hear, I didn't name the Librariy-Producers yet.

You can listen the 11 renderings here:
(broken link removed)

Impossible to answer really. They all seem to have their own strengths and weaknesses and none of them are at all convincing.

 

[fahl5]

Are all the examples using the same MIDI data with different sample libraries?

Only the same Raw-Midi-Data. Each recordings simply must have been programmed in Cubase as a seperate project, simply because each library has a different set of available articulations, a diffent way to assign them to a midievent and different options to modify the resulting sound with Midi CC's.
But I didn't changed the Tempo that much. The difference are of course thze articulations and the dynamic balance between the different instruments.

 

[MartinH.]

Just curious, why didn't you start with picking a reference recording and then trying to match that the closest possible way with different libraries combined, and do a poll which one we think got closest?

I'm not gonna vote because I don't feel qualified, don't have the required familiarity with Beethoven's music and don't have the attention span to compare that amount of music in a fair way, but the whole methodology of this test is confusing me a little. If you only care "which sampled orchestra fits best out of the box", then... ok... But I'd have been much more interested in "how to get the closest to reference recording X by combining whatever libraries necessary" if I was doing such a test. If you had a ref-track that you are trying to match, I'd imagine you already would have been able to throw out a ton of options on your own and not need to ask people to compare so many versions of the piece to each other in the first place. Maybe narrow it down to the three best or so first on your own. And unless you provide a reference recording, who is to say that the vote won't be strongly influenced by personal preferences for the overall sound of certain libraries?

I'm sure you haven't put that ton of work into this on a whim and I must be missing something (me being a noob and all), but like I said, I'm a little confused by this whole setup...

 

[fahl5]

Just curious, why didn't you start with picking a reference recording and then trying to match that the closest possible way with different libraries combined, and do a poll which one we think got closest?

I'm not gonna vote because I don't feel qualified, don't have the required familiarity with Beethoven's music and don't have the attention span to compare that amount of music in a fair way, but the whole methodology of this test is confusing me a little. If you only care "which sampled orchestra fits best out of the box", then... ok... But I'd have been much more interested in "how to get the closest to reference recording X by combining whatever libraries necessary" if I was doing such a test. If you had a ref-track that you are trying to match, I'd imagine you already would have been able to throw out a ton of options on your own and not need to ask people to compare so many versions of the piece to each other in the first place. Maybe narrow it down to the three best or so first on your own. And unless you provide a reference recording, who is to say that the vote won't be strongly influenced by personal preferences for the overall sound of certain libraries?

I'm sure you haven't put that ton of work into this on a whim and I must be missing something (me being a noob and all), but like I said, I'm a little confused by this whole setup...

1) If you ever have had the chance to program a piece of music with an ochestral sample library, you would know, that there is not a single orchestral Samplelibrary, which you can use in any way "out of the box".
There is always a lot library-specific Work to be done until you can hear anything. And if you would have listened to any of the recordings presented here, you must have observed, that all instruments change their way toplay and to sound always according to the change of the musical situation. Which still gives a lot of more library specific work whcih you cant simply apply in any "out of the box" way on any other samplelibrary. So be sure each recording is worked out to get the result you can hear.

2) Actually I didn't used one "reference" but have ahd always a couple of them loaded in my project, simply because as there is no a single perfect Library there is also not a single perfect interpretation, which only have to be "simulated". All do have their advantages and their problems. and as a musician it is always left to me to decide what I prefer. So it is not about doing somehting like a remake of anything, it is always the attempt to do with the availabhle means the best of what one is looking for and of what is possible with the library in use.

3) I confess I am a bit reluctant, when it comes to combine different orchestral libraries, since hey mostly come with such a different acoustic conditions that it is hard to unify different libraries to something which is heard as a whole. However the situation on the market of samplelibraries with many interesting products, of which none seems to be in any way complette or perfect or at least covering everything atr least mor or less satisfyingly. this is what motivattes my experiment. It is perhaps an attempt to convince me to combine which i currently hesitate so much to do. So your feedback about which library does convince you at least the most would be very helpful for me.

 

[Hadrondrift]

The beginning of the piece sounds amazingly fake in nearly all versions. So putting this aside, I concentrated on the string runs, the sound of the woodwinds, the shorts. I ended up liking c) the most, followed by i) and a), but no version really convinced me. Maybe a combination of the libraries could enhance the overall result; some are good in the woodwinds, some in the runs etc.

 

[Chungus]

I've listened to them all in full. I'd say A sounds the best, even if it does sound kinda flat at times - on the brass especially.

Also, there seems to be a lot of hanging notes going on in example K, around the 2-minute mark.

 

[OleJoergensen]

It is a great idea, you can learn alot by doing this. But to me it sounds like you have used the same midi file for al 11 examples, which makes parts in some of the examples, sounds a bit out of balance.

Anyway, I like A most. But Im sure you can make them al sound quite good by using xx hours tweaking midi cc.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[MartinH.]

1) If you ever have had the chance to program a piece of music with an ochestral sample library, you would know, that there is not a single orchestral Samplelibrary, which you can use in any way "out of the box".
There is always a lot library-specific Work to be done until you can hear anything. And if you would have listened to any of the recordings presented here, you must have observed, that all instruments change their way toplay and to sound always according to the change of the musical situation. Which still gives a lot of more library specific work whcih you cant simply apply in any "out of the box" way on any other samplelibrary. So be sure each recording is worked out to get the result you can hear.

What I meant isn't that you could just swap out the midi data (of course you can't), what I meant is that although each library has its own sound "out of the box" due to its default settings on mic positions etc., you can still do a lot to change that sound further and blend different libraries together and make them sound more cohesive even if they were recorded in different rooms entirely.

2) Actually I didn't used one "reference" but have ahd always a couple of them loaded in my project, simply because as there is no a single perfect Library there is also not a single perfect interpretation, which only have to be "simulated". All do have their advantages and their problems. and as a musician it is always left to me to decide what I prefer. So it is not about doing somehting like a remake of anything, it is always the attempt to do with the availabhle means the best of what one is looking for and of what is possible with the library in use.

I can understand that sentiment. Personally I would feel like my mixing chops aren't nearly good enough to draw from more than one reference and make something that is better than any of the individual references. If I tried that, I'm pretty sure it would come out as something that isn't as good as any single one of the references and I feel personally much more comfortable picking one and then A/B switching back and forth and getting my mockup as close as I can. I find that also to be the best way for improving my mixing skills because I get more direct feedback whether any change I make contributes to my goal or not. I can be more objective when I have just that one reftrack to hit as a target, instead of picking two or more and aiming somewhere in the vague middle between them. But if your approach works for you that's of course the more creative and musical one!

3) I confess I am a bit reluctant, when it comes to combine different orchestral libraries, since hey mostly come with such a different acoustic conditions that it is hard to unify different libraries to something which is heard as a whole. However the situation on the market of samplelibraries with many interesting products, of which none seems to be in any way complette or perfect or at least covering everything atr least mor or less satisfyingly. this is what motivattes my experiment. It is perhaps an attempt to convince me to combine which i currently hesitate so much to do. So your feedback about which library does convince you at least the most would be very helpful for me.

I've listened to example A) in full and voted for that. If that one isn't a real recording, then kudos to you and the library developer. With all the others I have listened to excerpts and quickly got a feeling of listening to sampled music with all of them. Most of the other voters so far seem to agree. If that isn't one of the reftracks I'd go with that one for sure.
And I also noticed the hanging notes in K). Did you leave those in as a test to see if anyone even listens enough to notice them, because they're so obvious for over a minute nonstop?

 

[andrzejmakal]

You insist me to listen whole pieces, and you propose a file with hanging notes? Did YOU listen to these all?