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OT Berlin WW Bundle vs CSS WW BF Sales

hsindermann said:
) Been playing with Oboe 1. Took me a while to figure out how to switch between half and whole tone trills in Sine. After figuring that out I was impressed that there wasn't only those, but also min3, maj3 and 4th trills. Then I tried them... Is a 4th trill supposed to sound like this (coming at the end)?
Click to expand...
Here's those trills using BWW Legacy (in Kontakt):

View attachment BWW_Legacy_Trills.mp3

EDIT: adding hsindermann's SINE version for easy comparison:
View attachment SINE_BWW_trills.mp3
 
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ZeeCount said:
That sounds like an oboist playing a 4th trill to me. A lot of 4th trills are almost impossible to play cleanly on the oboe because they will be involving changing at least 3 fingers at once (eg. C - F would require 4 fingers at once). The oboe has trill keys, but they are only designed for doing HT or WT trills.
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Good to know - I guess one should avoid 4th trills for Oboes in general then.
 
ZeeCount said:
That sounds like an oboist playing a 4th trill to me. A lot of 4th trills are almost impossible to play cleanly on the oboe because they will be involving changing at least 3 fingers at once (eg. C - F would require 4 fingers at once).
Click to expand...
There's an advantage to having an instrument sound like it sounds... Also, I think one would typically use these sorts of trills in those impressionistic "trilled" chord accompaniment figures, so a lot performance issues in one instrument would get absorbed into the general wash of the woodwind section sound.
 
jbuhler said:
Somewhat smoother. Another one of those interesting differences that suggests porting is not as transparent as it seems it should be.
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BWW Revive was a complete new set of samples from the original BWW (apart from a few instruments which I can't remember off the top of my head).
 
I think all those finds needs to send to the OT headquarter right away and let us know how much involvement would be to keep those reported issues ironed out, in a relative time frame. Every important improvement will be time consuming as OT says, but every inch of work to the main flagship will be very helpful and to keep all straightforward upon their business in long term also. Now they have a main priority on December so like SF they will continue release big new ones without working on what is already on hand of every costumer?
Hopefully will know from they if those things are in the work as legato on BS.
 
hsindermann said:
Edit: I take it back, because what LoMP has posted sounds fine to my ears. What's in Sine does NOT.
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Just a guess here, but it sounds like the SINE version is playing back both the +5 and +6 trill (from Legacy version) overlaid on top of each other.

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By the way, fun fact. BWW Legacy appears to have been sampled chromatically, instead of in whole steps (as most libraries do it now). While it might not be super noticeable, it surely cost OT a lot more in recording and editing time.
 
It can be difficult to discuss Berlin Woodwinds because there's multiple versions of them, and it's not always clear what's being evaluated.

The Kontakt version contains BOTH the older Legacy patches (which are best, imho), and the newer "Revive" version (not as good as legacy).

I may be wrong, but I think the SINE version only has the Revive version (not the Legacy), if my understanding is correct. Plus a few more extra samples, I think.

It's a matter of opinion whether one prefers the Legacy version or the Revive version, of course. And I don't have Revive, but everything I've heard from that version seems generally inferior to me than the original Legacy patches.
 
Land of Missing Parts said:
Just a guess here, but it sounds like the SINE version is playing back both the +5 and +6 trill (from Legacy version) overlaid on top of each other.

---

By the way, fun fact. BWW Legacy appears to have been sampled chromatically, instead of in whole steps (as most libraries do it now). While it might not be super noticeable, it surely cost OT a lot more in recording and editing time.
Click to expand...
True, sounds again like multiple articulations playing at once, just like the mess at certain CC values when they also overlap.

I've also just noticed that these trills go up to a perfect 5th in Legacy, but in Revive and Sine only to a 4th. And are really only usable up to a 3rd. Gotta admit when I bought the Kontakt version back then, I mostly ignored the legacy patches and went straight for the Revive ones. I should invest some time playing with the legacy version - this seems to hold some gems that I wasn't aware of. So definitely thanks for the hint about Legacy! :)
 
ZeeCount said:
BWW Revive was a complete new set of samples from the original BWW (apart from a few instruments which I can't remember off the top of my head).
Click to expand...
Yes but remember that all happened before Sine, and then they ported Revive to Sine, where we continue to learn things didn't translate 1:1.
 
ZeeCount said:
BWW Revive was a complete new set of samples from the original BWW (apart from a few instruments which I can't remember off the top of my head).
Click to expand...
Here's the new stuff they recorded for Revive in 2017:

Piccolo (new recordings)
Flute 1
Flute 2 (new recordings)
Flute 3 (new recordings)
Alto Flute (new instrument)
Oboe 1 (new recordings)
Oboe 2 (new recordings)
English Horn (new recordings)
Clarinet 1 (new recordings)
Clarinet 2
Bassoon 1
Bassoon 2

Also, they reworked the mics from Legacy to push them back (to match them to the rest of Berlin).
 
Land of Missing Parts said:
View attachment BWW_Trills.mp4

One nice advantage to Kontakt is you can go under the wrench and access the original audio files. It helps when troubleshooting or trying to figure out if the issue is playback vs the underlying recording being flawed.
Click to expand...
What does Revive in Kontakt sound like?

The problem is most acute on the F# and G in Sine and it continues downward from there, but with less intensity. The Ab above doesn't exhibit the issue, at least not to the same degree. From that G-F# pair, it would seem that sampling on the Revive trills seems to be diatonic, though it's hard to say for certain, since I only have the Sine version and can't see the samples.

Land of Missing Parts said:
Just a guess here, but it sounds like the SINE version is playing back both the +5 and +6 trill (from Legacy version) overlaid on top of each other.
Click to expand...
Sine only goes up to a fourth. Measured trills go to a fifth. It does sound a bit like a second sample is being triggered, though less so, using only one of the other of the spot mics. Even with the spot mics there is still something strange about the sound to my ear that's hard to figure. It may indeed be the awkwardness of fingering. It's hard for me to figure how manipulations of the recording itself could cause this. So it would be interesting to know what Revive in Kontakt sounds like.
 
Henrik B. Jensen said:
I would not pass on Berlin Woodwinds at 50% off because there are some inconsistencies.

You can check which articulations each instrument has here (edit: dynamic layers are listed too):

BWW Main (Kontakt)

Berlin Woodwinds Revive - Notes - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk

Piccolo, Flutes and Alto Flute BWW Revive contains a Piccolo Flute as well as three individually sampled Concert Flutes played by different musicians with a not
orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com

BWW Main (SINE)

Berlin Woodwinds - Notes (SINEplayer) - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk

Part of the acclaimed Berlin Series, Berlin Woodwinds raises the bar for detailed and true-to-life woodwinds. 12 individual instruments let you construct expres
orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com

Example:

Flute 1 does not have Marcato.
Flute 2 has Marcato Short and Marcato Long.
Flute 3 also has MS and ML.

If you need 2 Flutes with Marcato, use Flute 2 and 3.
If you need 3 Flutes with Marcato, use Flute 2 and 3, then use the transposition trick on one of them and use that as the 3. flute.
Click to expand...
That’s why we have libraries from other devs too:cool:
 
Flyo said:
I think all those finds needs to send to the OT headquarter right away and let us know how much involvement would be to keep those reported issues ironed out, in a relative time frame. Every important improvement will be time consuming as OT says, but every inch of work to the main flagship will be very helpful and to keep all straightforward upon their business in long term also.
Click to expand...
This.

No library are 100% perfect and you can always find faults. It can be helpful to showcase the flaws of instruments for the community, but it might help us even more in the long run if these sort of things are reported to the devs!
 
Flyo said:
I think all those finds needs to send to the OT headquarter right away
Click to expand...

Well, that's my main complaint about Orchestral Tools. I sent OT descriptions of the bugs I found in the Berlin Strings First Chairs library. Six years, one v2.0 update and one sine port later, all those bugs are still in the library, just like they were on day one. That's why I don't think reporting bugs to OT is worth your time, and I don't expect them to fix anything. It is more likely that OT will introduce more bugs with new versions than fix old ones. Berlin Woodwinds Legacy vs. Sine version is a classic example.

In my opinion, the quality control on the OT libraries is failing. It's what's stopping me from buying the Berlin series now.
 
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