What's new

Opening old projects

Syneast

Active Member
I'm gonna rant for a bit. Opening old projects can be such a pain in the ass. Do I seriously need to have every version of my plugins since their inception installed on my computer at all times? I mean, things get updated and old versions often disappear so you can't even find the installers for them anymore because they are not part of the new and shiny "software manager".

Sometimes I am seriously considering going with all around open source stuff just to have things stay static, and to be in control over the changes. Maybe I'm getting old, but things constantly changing is starting to annoy me.

What are your methods for dealing with this?
 
Take screenshots of your plugin settings so they can be recreated if the old plugin no longer works. Be aware that some plugins have multiple pages/tabs/areas so it can become a bit of a lengthy process. Saving a patch in the plugin itself can help. Also, Cubase allows you to switch views to just a long list of parameters rather than look at the GUI so that makes it much simpler to capture them in 1 screenshot.
 
Opening old projects can be such a pain in the ass. Do I seriously need to have every version of my plugins since their inception installed on my computer at all times? [...] Sometimes I am seriously considering going with all around open source stuff just to have things stay static, and to be in control over the changes. [...] What are your methods for dealing with this?
In general there's nothing you can do after you've lost access to the old plugin. I'd probably ask the plugin developer for help in the first instance, since it's bad practice to create this situation[1]. As insurance for the future, bouncing to audio - as @Marcus Millfield suggests - is the only robust protection I can think of. Snapshots of plugin folders might help, but the chance of an old plugin version running on a current DAW/OS decreases as the years go by.

To own a computer is to choose repeatedly between change or obsolescence. I don't think anything can change that. Maybe open-source projects are better at managing change properly... but, FWIW, that hasn't always been my experience.

[1] new versions of a plugin should always load presets created by previous versions, should accept automation with the same identifiers, etc. If the developer can't do this, then they must release it as a new plugin so both can run side-by-side. This isn't always popular with users, as they must manually update their projects to get the new version (e.g. Kontakt 6 vs 7 recently), but it does mean that older projects continue to work.
 
For ongoing series / franchises (one of which is still going 20+ years on !!) I do some combination of the following:

• Use only Logic's stock plugins as much as possible. EXS-24 / Logic Sampler, stock synths / compressor / eq / reverb / delay. That's why I became a Jedi at converting Kontakt to EXS....

• Expanding upon that thinking, I try to use "big-name" plugins that aren't likely to go away too quickly as much as possible, like Waves, UAD, etc. Omnisphere still loads correctly on decade-old projects. Kontakt too for the most part.

• For any tracks that use non-stock instruments + plugins, I get pretty thorough with saving the presets individually from each instrument + plugin, as well as a Logic Channel Strip Preset that contains the whole strip. I make a folder inside each project folder for the Channel Strip Presets, as well as sub-folders for each plugin, then save them in both Logic's preset format as well as the plugin's native preset format, and I get pretty detailed with naming those preset files. Say I had a cue called "SAW3-2m11v2-Dog Trap v2" that had track #72 using Omnisphere through Waves Omni Channel and UAD Tape Delay.... I'd save out the Logic Channel Strip Preset as "SAW3-2m11v2-Track72-OmnispherePad", and then save out the individual presets as "SAW3-2m11v2-Track72-Omnisphere", "SAW3-2m11v2-Track72slot1-WavesOmniChannel", and "SAW3-2m11v2-Track72slot2-UadTapeDelay" etc. Usually the Channel Strip Preset is enough to get the whole strip back, but in case the format changes (or just didn't exist 20 years ago!) then I have the individual plugin presets saved with the plugin name AND the plugin slot # in the file name. This is a bit tedious, but I do this after the project has been delivered, when I'm in "clean-up and archive" mode. I also have key commands to save each of these file types, and copy+paste the names as I go so I don't have to type the entire string each and every time.

• For any tracks that use Kontakt, especially those that use protected (serial number required) libraries, or Vienna / Sine / Musio / Spitfire / etc., I always bounce each one to audio. I keep the original MIDI track with all the plugins intact (and of course save out the Channel Strip and all the presets individually), and I just keep the MIDI version muted / disabled, but not hidden. I try to do this as soon as the track is finalized, so I'll be mixing using the bounced audio, which saves time on clean-up day, but sometimes I get in too big a hurry to do that before delivery, so it becomes part of the clean-up process. But I always check and make sure that the bounced or BIP'd version is routed the same way as the original, and sounds identical, both solo'd and in the mix, before I move on to the next.

• During clean-up day I make sure that every single audio file used by a cue is saved locally to that cue's Project folder, and has a name like "SAW3-2m11v2-GtrRuggedChug" or "SAW3-2m11v2-OmniPadBNC" or "SAW3-2m11v2-TinaGuoLegatoBIP" etc. ("BNC" abbreviates "bounce" and BIP abbreviates "bounce in place").

• If an audio file is re-used between multiple cues I make sure it exists in EACH cue's audio files folder, and has a truly unique name reflecting that cue's title. So if I re-used "SAW3-2m11v2-DeepTaikoLoops" on the cue "SAW3-3m18v3-Still Healthy" then I make sure that file gets copied to the second cue's audio files folder, and I rename the new copy "SAW3-3m18v3-DeepTaikoLoops". That way there are NEVER two audio files with the same name but possibly different content / length / processing.

• Any hardware synths or processing are NEVER running "live" during the mix - I always print as I go for that stuff. And name the files with excruciating detail of course.

• Since I do use Ableton Live as well, I always save the Ableton project inside each cue's folder, and tell it to collect and copy all samples to that location. I do this as I go.

• During clean-up day I also mute / power-off / disable / hide any tracks that aren't used in each cue, to reduce confusion if and when I load up that cue years later.

• On clean-up day I also make use of the main reason that I go to all the trouble of converting so much stuff to EXS-24 / Logic Sampler format: I save each project with "Include EXS Instruments" and "Include EXS Samples" turned on in the Assets section of Logic's Project Settings. This saves a local copy of ALL of that stuff to each Project's folder, which is A-MA-ZING. (Boy do I wish it would do this for all Kontakt + plugins...). That way every single molecule winds up saved locally. I also do this for the master template for the film, which has all 976 EXS instances that each cue is descended from, and I make sure that all tracks are enabled / unmuted / loaded so that this save-out contains ALL 976 of them. For each individual cue, only the enabled / un-muted tracks will be saved, so those save-outs will contain only the EXS instruments used by that cue, but will also include any wild-card stuff that's different to the master tamplate, stuff that I've loaded up and used only on that cue. The EXS Instruments wind up all dumped into a single folder inside the Project folder, and the samples for each instrument are in sub-folders that are named the same as the instrument which references them. Okay so far.

• Once I've rolled through all of the cues (and the master template), I then condense the Samples folders to save disc space. To do this, I create a single master folder for "SAW3-EXS Instruments" and "SAW3-EXS Samples" at the top level of the SAW3 folder, then I drag all of the Samples sub-folders from each individual cue into that folder, and when I'm asked if I want to Replace / Rename the inevitable duplicates, I say "Replace". That way I wind up with a SINGLE folder that contains ALL of the individual Samples folders, which reduces disc space considerably. Since the Instruments files are tiny (like NKI files are), I leave them in each cue's folder, but I also option-drag them to the master Instruments folder, so I have a "sum total" folder of Instruments that matches my "sum total" Samples folders. I keep those per-cue Instruments folders on the off-chance that I made some change under the hood of the Instrument (changing velocity split points, key maps, controller mapping, etc.) but had neglected to save it out with a new name. (But I am normally very diligent about saving an Instrument with a new name if I've made ANY under-hood changes).

This sounds like a lot, and I guess it is, but clean-up usually only takes me one day for a whole film score, and I regularly load up cues from 20 years ago and everything is there, most of the tracks are still MIDI and can therefore be edited. If a Kontakt track won't come back, I have the BIP version. Ableton stuff always comes back, all the way back to Ableton v1.

For the hailstorm of cues in a weekly tv series, I do clean-up at the end of the season. This takes more than a single day however! But it has saved my ass a zillion times.
 
Last edited:
Great tips, as always, Charlie!

This old article by Craig Anderton may be worth a look as well:


Best,

Geoff
 
I always bounce/print midi tracks when I work as a habit (leaving the midi tracks still on the timeline but disabled so I can return as needed). I'll do it even if I intend to open the project in a few days or a week. I just want to lock in the timbre with all the modulation and effects I created. If I do need to return to the original midi, but something sounds different, I also have that bounced audio as a reference. I will also name everything clearly.

If I am creating very specific instrument racks or effects chains which are integral to a sound, I will also screengrab all the settings and drop those inside the project folder. If I'm using hardware synths, outboard gear, or recorded audio, I will document anything relevant about how the sound was made (any pictures of gear where the knobs are set, writing down synth patch numbers, an outboard or microphone signal chain). It sounds like a lot of work but it really only takes a few extra minutes and it's great housekeeping. I rarely have to look at these but a couple of times this has totally saved my ass for recall or recreating something a year or two later.

Middle of last year my MacPro trash can died on me suddenly. Had to get an all new computer, and unfortunately a few plugins are no longer supported by the newer MacOS. However, out of the several hundreds of plugins I own, only about 5 just wouldn't install at all, so I'd say that is pretty good.

The most annoying thing I discovered was that FabFilter, whose plugins I use a lot, "renamed" all of their plugins since then. They all used to have 'FF' at the front of the name, such as FF Saturn, FF Volcano, FF ProQ-2, etc. Now the newer versions are named simply by the plugin, Saturn 2, Volcano 3, Pro-Q 3, etc. I was very sad to discover there is no hope of "translating" the old versions to the new ones when opening a project - even though I have the newer versions installed, the project simply won't see them as the same thing because the names don't match perfectly. Luckily I had my screengrabs for some, but not all (I wasn't thinking to screengrab every instance of Pro-Q on every track!). There ought to be a way for this to be translated over but apparently it doesn't work that way. 😪
 
To own a computer is to choose repeatedly between change or obsolescence. I don't think anything can change that. Maybe open-source projects are better at managing change properly... but, FWIW, that hasn't always been my experience.
Sometimes you don't even have that choice. NI's latest announcement will remove the ability to authorize software on older operating systems in about a year. So, even if you maintain older hardware, you won't be able to authorize the software on it.
 
Great tips, as always, Charlie!

This old article by Craig Anderton may be worth a look as well:


Best,

Geoff
Although it's a lot of work, this is viable for finished recordings. But, if like me, you work on pieces of music over many years, it isn't a good option. Existing tracks might change depending on how the piece develops. There is no substitute for keeping the old sound libraries and plugins working.

I have multiple identical computers each with multiple identical internal drives with everything installed and enabled on them. I can swap a computer or swap a drive out of a particular computer in a few a few minutes and be back up and running. But, even this isn't fool proof.

The software companies don't give a rat's ass that some of us consider these software tools our instruments.
 
Sometimes you don't even have that choice. NI's latest announcement will remove the ability to authorize software on older operating systems in about a year. So, even if you maintain older hardware, you won't be able to authorize the software on it.
I think it's the same choice still: change the hardware, or watch it become obsolete. The OSes they're dropping are already beyond end-of-life, so that hardware can't really be maintained anyway. It's not nice for those who need to buy near gear, of course.
 
The OSes they're dropping are already beyond end-of-life, so that hardware can't really be maintained anyway.
Of course it can. If you have the installers (which I do), you can install old OSes (and other software) until the cows come home. I use two 2012 MacBook Pros (one running 10.14, the other 10.11) and a 2014 HP zBook running Win 10. I have identical backup machines for all three with all software installed, authorized, and ready to go. These do everything I need to do musically.

The Windows machine uses the current version of NA, so it's not a problem. It's the Macs that are the problem. If NI would simply maintain the ability to authorize Kontakt and sound libraries with older versions of NA (as they do currently), I could do what I'm doing now until the day I die.
 
Of course it can. If you have the installers (which I do), you can install old OSes (and other software) until the cows come home.
Of course you can keep them running if they don't need to interact with the rest of the world; but that's the nature of obsolescence rather than breakdown. Without patching, their ability to interoperate with anything else steadily decreases, and the risk to yourself and others steadily increases.

If NI would simply maintain the ability to authorize Kontakt and sound libraries with older versions of NA (as they do currently), I could do what I'm doing now until the day I die.
If vendors continued to support old hardware, then old hardware would be supported, it's true :) I think the issue is that it's not a case of "simply" maintaining anything, because of network effects. Oversimplified example: suppose NA relies on encryption that was great in 2010 but crackable in 2025... either they change their encryption and exclude old computers that can't handle it; or they use compromised encryption which (further?) alienates their VI developer clients.
 
Of course you can keep them running if they don't need to interact with the rest of the world; but that's the nature of obsolescence rather than breakdown. Without patching, their ability to interoperate with anything else steadily decreases, and the risk to yourself and others steadily increases.


If vendors continued to support old hardware, then old hardware would be supported, it's true :) I think the issue is that it's not a case of "simply" maintaining anything, because of network effects. Oversimplified example: suppose NA relies on encryption that was great in 2010 but crackable in 2025... either they change their encryption and exclude old computers that can't handle it; or they use compromised encryption which (further?) alienates their VI developer clients.
Maybe yes, maybe no. But, not all people using these tools are using them for short term commercial music. No other tools used in music creation work this way. Even products with custom ICs or programmed parts can be repaired with new parts, used parts from a donor unit, or a working replacement unit. The original manufacturer can't stop you from doing that. But, software companies can screw you over whenever they feel like it. Sorry man, I just don't believe that there's no solution to the authorization problem.
 
For ongoing series / franchises (one of which is still going 20+ years on !!) I do some combination of the following:

• Use only Logic's stock plugins as much as possible. EXS-24 / Logic Sampler, stock synths / compressor / eq / reverb / delay. That's why I became a Jedi at converting Kontakt to EXS....

• Expanding upon that thinking, I try to use "big-name" plugins that aren't likely to go away too quickly as much as possible, like Waves, UAD, etc. Omnisphere still loads correctly on decade-old projects. Kontakt too for the most part.

• For any tracks that use non-stock instruments + plugins, I get pretty thorough with saving the presets individually from each instrument + plugin, as well as a Logic Channel Strip Preset that contains the whole strip. I make a folder inside each project folder for the Channel Strip Presets, as well as sub-folders for each plugin, then save them in both Logic's preset format as well as the plugin's native preset format, and I get pretty detailed with naming those preset files. Say I had a cue called "SAW3-2m11v2-Dog Trap v2" that had track #72 using Omnisphere through Waves Omni Channel and UAD Tape Delay.... I'd save out the Logic Channel Strip Preset as "SAW3-2m11v2-Track72-OmnispherePad", and then save out the individual presets as "SAW3-2m11v2-Track72-Omnisphere", "SAW3-2m11v2-Track72slot1-WavesOmniChannel", and "SAW3-2m11v2-Track72slot2-UadTapeDelay" etc. Usually the Channel Strip Preset is enough to get the whole strip back, but in case the format changes (or just didn't exist 20 years ago!) then I have the individual plugin presets saved with the plugin name AND the plugin slot # in the file name. This is a bit tedious, but I do this after the project has been delivered, when I'm in "clean-up and archive" mode. I also have key commands to save each of these file types, and copy+paste the names as I go so I don't have to type the entire string each and every time.

• For any tracks that use Kontakt, especially those that use protected (serial number required) libraries, or Vienna / Sine / Musio / Spitfire / etc., I always bounce each one to audio. I keep the original MIDI track with all the plugins intact (and of course save out the Channel Strip and all the presets individually), and I just keep the MIDI version muted / disabled, but not hidden. I try to do this as soon as the track is finalized, so I'll be mixing using the bounced audio, which saves time on clean-up day, but sometimes I get in too big a hurry to do that before delivery, so it becomes part of the clean-up process. But I always check and make sure that the bounced or BIP'd version is routed the same way as the original, and sounds identical, both solo'd and in the mix, before I move on to the next.

• During clean-up day I make sure that every single audio file used by a cue is saved locally to that cue's Project folder, and has a name like "SAW3-2m11v2-GtrRuggedChug" or "SAW3-2m11v2-OmniPadBNC" or "SAW3-2m11v2-TinaGuoLegatoBIP" etc. ("BNC" abbreviates "bounce" and BIP abbreviates "bounce in place").

• If an audio file is re-used between multiple cues I make sure it exists in EACH cue's audio files folder, and has a truly unique name reflecting that cue's title. So if I re-used "SAW3-2m11v2-DeepTaikoLoops" on the cue "SAW3-3m18v3-Still Healthy" then I make sure that file gets copied to the second cue's audio files folder, and I rename the new copy "SAW3-3m18v3-DeepTaikoLoops". That way there are NEVER two audio files with the same name but possibly different content / length / processing.

• Any hardware synths or processing are NEVER running "live" during the mix - I always print as I go for that stuff. And name the files with excruciating detail of course.

• Since I do use Ableton Live as well, I always save the Ableton project inside each cue's folder, and tell it to collect and copy all samples to that location. I do this as I go.

• During clean-up day I also mute / power-off / disable / hide any tracks that aren't used in each cue, to reduce confusion if and when I load up that cue years later.

• On clean-up day I also make use of the main reason that I go to all the trouble of converting so much stuff to EXS-24 / Logic Sampler format: I save each project with "Include EXS Instruments" and "Include EXS Samples" turned on in the Assets section of Logic's Project Settings. This saves a local copy of ALL of that stuff to each Project's folder, which is A-MA-ZING. (Boy do I wish it would do this for all Kontakt + plugins...). That way every single molecule winds up saved locally. I also do this for the master template for the film, which has all 976 EXS instances that each cue is descended from, and I make sure that all tracks are enabled / unmuted / loaded so that this save-out contains ALL 976 of them. For each individual cue, only the enabled / un-muted tracks will be saved, so those save-outs will contain only the EXS instruments used by that cue, but will also include any wild-card stuff that's different to the master tamplate, stuff that I've loaded up and used only on that cue. The EXS Instruments wind up all dumped into a single folder inside the Project folder, and the samples for each instrument are in sub-folders that are named the same as the instrument which references them. Okay so far.

• Once I've rolled through all of the cues (and the master template), I then condense the Samples folders to save disc space. To do this, I create a single master folder for "SAW3-EXS Instruments" and "SAW3-EXS Samples" at the top level of the SAW3 folder, then I drag all of the Samples sub-folders from each individual cue into that folder, and when I'm asked if I want to Replace / Rename the inevitable duplicates, I say "Replace". That way I wind up with a SINGLE folder that contains ALL of the individual Samples folders, which reduces disc space considerably. Since the Instruments files are tiny (like NKI files are), I leave them in each cue's folder, but I also option-drag them to the master Instruments folder, so I have a "sum total" folder of Instruments that matches my "sum total" Samples folders. I keep those per-cue Instruments folders on the off-chance that I made some change under the hood of the Instrument (changing velocity split points, key maps, controller mapping, etc.) but had neglected to save it out with a new name. (But I am normally very diligent about saving an Instrument with a new name if I've made ANY under-hood changes).

This sounds like a lot, and I guess it is, but clean-up usually only takes me one day for a whole film score, and I regularly load up cues from 20 years ago and everything is there, most of the tracks are still MIDI and can therefore be edited. If a Kontakt track won't come back, I have the BIP version. Ableton stuff always comes back, all the way back to Ableton v1.

For the hailstorm of cues in a weekly tv series, I do clean-up at the end of the season. This takes more than a single day however! But it has saved my ass a zillion times.

Excellent ideas

Question: Are you continuing to use EXS despite Logic having a new sampler that is seemingly more robust? If so, is it merely for convenience because you have everything already saved to EXS or is there a 'con' to using Logic's new sampler?
 
No other tools used in music creation work this way.
No tools worked this way before about 25 years ago: this is the first era in which tools have been made of data rather than materials, and been routinely modified by their manufacturer without being recalled to a factory. This is why analogies with physical tools don't really work (...starting with that apocryphal story of Bill Gates and General Motors.)

But, software companies can screw you over whenever they feel like it. Sorry man, I just don't believe that there's no solution to the authorization problem.
That's fine; anyone coming to VIC for validation is coming to the wrong place ;)

There are solutions, but it'd cost NI money to run a separate pipeline for those old OSes. Only ~5% of PCs and ~3% of Macs are running an OS that will lose support (i.e. pre-Windows 10 or pre-Mojave) so each of those customers would cost them >20x more to service than everyone else. It's never nice to find oneself getting the fuzzy end of the cost/benefit lollipop... but I don't think NI feels like screwing you: they just don't feel like subsidising you.
 
Excellent ideas

Question: Are you continuing to use EXS despite Logic having a new sampler that is seemingly more robust? If so, is it merely for convenience because you have everything already saved to EXS or is there a 'con' to using Logic's new sampler?
We’ll, the new Logic Sampler is basically a re-skin of EXS-24, with a few new features and a few minor changes, and all the old EXS Instruments load seamlessly into Sampler, with no “importing” needed. The only reason I’m still using EXS is because my main machine is frozen in time on macOS v10.14.6 Mojave and Logic v10.4.8, and I won’t begin using the current versions until my new m2 ultra Mac arrives. Since I frequent need to load and repurpose old cues going back 20 years, I’ll leave the old machine frozen and set it aside in case some plug-in or setting or whatever doesn’t make it across.

But I’ve tested the new Sampler and even my most comes EXS Instruments load, play, and sound the same. There are changes under the hood related to how it deals with Groups, velocity zones that need to overlap, etc. but Apple have implemented the changes without breaking anything. But this does mean that once certain Instruments have been loaded into Sampler and saved, their internal structure has been changed. So I want to keep a whole machine frozen just in case…
 
We’ll, the new Logic Sampler is basically a re-skin of EXS-24, with a few new features and a few minor changes, and all the old EXS Instruments load seamlessly into Sampler, with no “importing” needed. The only reason I’m still using EXS is because my main machine is frozen in time on macOS v10.14.6 Mojave and Logic v10.4.8, and I won’t begin using the current versions until my new m2 ultra Mac arrives. Since I frequent need to load and repurpose old cues going back 20 years, I’ll leave the old machine frozen and set it aside in case some plug-in or setting or whatever doesn’t make it across.

But I’ve tested the new Sampler and even my most comes EXS Instruments load, play, and sound the same. There are changes under the hood related to how it deals with Groups, velocity zones that need to overlap, etc. but Apple have implemented the changes without breaking anything. But this does mean that once certain Instruments have been loaded into Sampler and saved, their internal structure has been changed. So I want to keep a whole machine frozen just in case…

Ahhh I appreciate the explanation - I had no idea that Sampler made changes to the files - that's some news I can use
 
Ahhh I appreciate the explanation - I had no idea that Sampler made changes to the files - that's some news I can use
The changes that Sampler makes to EXS Instrument files are very small - AND they're backwards compatible. In other words, you can load an Instrument in Sampler, it will make some under-the-hood changes by itself, and then you can save the Instrument from within Sampler and it will still load just fine in EXS-24, and play and sound the same as it did before...

...which is amazing.
 
Top Bottom