Menu
What's new
By:
Filters

Not happy with production results

O

otisvillain

New Member
Hey all-

What ever happened to the principle of less is more? Keep it simple? The last two engineers I brought tracks to (they had good reviews), have not done a good job at all. I wanted clean, balanced, tight sounding tracks. The results were over-processed, all-vocal tracks.

Do engineers not listen to requests of their clients? I've came to the conclusion that I know exactly how I want my song to sound, and that I am much better served patiently mixing it down and handing off to be mastered. "RANT OVER!!"

Does anyone else have these problems?
Click to read more...
 
Hey Otis (if that's your real name, lol) ... you present an interesting situation, because that flips the tables a little bit. Usually as composers/songwriters/producers, we're the ones asked to bend to our clients' will. When someone else needs to bend to ours, we get to feel what our clients feel, lol.

Reason I say this, is perhaps a good way to look at this objectively might be to think about what our clients do with us, and apply it to this situation.

I haven't worked with a ton of engineers, and more recently, I've become more of the engineer myself, so I've seen it from both sides, even if in a limited capacity. I think I can offer a couple of key observations that could help.

An important element of all this might be reference tracks. While I don't doubt your originality, I'm guessing there are certain artists or certain pieces that define "clean, balanced, tight sounding tracks" to you, and those tracks are what you want your tracks to sound like. I don't mean they would sound the same in terms of content or arrangement or anything, but rather there are particular elements that you pick up on and want in your tracks. And hey, maybe your frustration is actually because the engineers ignored your reference tracks entirely!

The other thing is whether the elements of the track you provided lend themselves to the exact sound you're thinking of. Again, not doubting your ability, but sometimes we'll work with a certain sound, and try to hammer it into submission during the mix, where it's much easier to either choose a different sample/synth/drum sound, or re-record the thing you're recording differently, with a different mic, or using a different angle/distance, etc. And perhaps that's not possible by the mixing stage, which might mean that the mixing engineer needs to get a bit creative, perhaps double up that kick sound with a sample of their own to get the exact sound you need, or add/subtract elements in a way that doesn't ruin your musical vision.

I don't know, you might consider this extremely pedestrian from me, but that's just what comes to mind in response to your frustration. What do you think?
 
musophrenic said:
Hey Otis (if that's your real name, lol) ... you present an interesting situation, because that flips the tables a little bit. Usually as composers/songwriters/producers, we're the ones asked to bend to our clients' will. When someone else needs to bend to ours, we get to feel what our clients feel, lol.

Reason I say this, is perhaps a good way to look at this objectively might be to think about what our clients do with us, and apply it to this situation.

I haven't worked with a ton of engineers, and more recently, I've become more of the engineer myself, so I've seen it from both sides, even if in a limited capacity. I think I can offer a couple of key observations that could help.

An important element of all this might be reference tracks. While I don't doubt your originality, I'm guessing there are certain artists or certain pieces that define "clean, balanced, tight sounding tracks" to you, and those tracks are what you want your tracks to sound like. I don't mean they would sound the same in terms of content or arrangement or anything, but rather there are particular elements that you pick up on and want in your tracks. And hey, maybe your frustration is actually because the engineers ignored your reference tracks entirely!

The other thing is whether the elements of the track you provided lend themselves to the exact sound you're thinking of. Again, not doubting your ability, but sometimes we'll work with a certain sound, and try to hammer it into submission during the mix, where it's much easier to either choose a different sample/synth/drum sound, or re-record the thing you're recording differently, with a different mic, or using a different angle/distance, etc. And perhaps that's not possible by the mixing stage, which might mean that the mixing engineer needs to get a bit creative, perhaps double up that kick sound with a sample of their own to get the exact sound you need, or add/subtract elements in a way that doesn't ruin your musical vision.

I don't know, you might consider this extremely pedestrian from me, but that's just what comes to mind in response to your frustration. What do you think?
Click to expand...

Thank you for the reply. I see the main problem as the last two engineers are mixing my tracks to sound like everything else you hear on the radio. Now, I'm shooting for radio quality material, but all uniqueness/originality is lost through the over-processing, synthetic-ness they put into the song! I believe that if the instrument sounds good, why add a lot of processing to it? Maybe some panning, EQ, and a touch of reverb is all that is needed. I also favor a strong main lead vocal, without a lot of processing or excessive harmonies, which seems to be contrary to their vision.

I always send the mixed version of the song that I do myself (instrumental only, I'm still hesitant mixing vocals), which is clean and balanced. I figured that another set of ears, and a well treated room, and someone experienced mixing vocals would take the song to the next level, but that is not what happened. Indeed, a learning experience (expensive!).

I have a few revisions that the engineer allows, so tonight I'm going to spell out in greater detail what my vision is. I think moving forward, right from the start I will hammer home what my vision is
 
I think you are getting two things confused; engineers and producers. Engineers don't really care (in my experience) what you are wanting...and unless you can instruct them precisely during the mixing process, you are going to typically be very unsatisfied. The key is to hire a good producer; who will be able to achieve the end result since they are versed in the whole process. But the key is finding a producer that will achieve what you need.
 
Wolfie2112 said:
I think you are getting two things confused; engineers and producers. Engineers don't really care (in my experience) what you are wanting...and unless you can instruct them precisely during the mixing process, you are going to typically be very unsatisfied. The key is to hire a good producer; who will be able to achieve the end result since they are versed in the whole process. But the key is finding a producer that will achieve what you need.
Click to expand...

That is what I'm learning now, that unless I can instruct them precisely, I'm going to be unhappy. What I don't understand is this: if I give them a mixed version of the song, that I did, how they are so far off the mark from what my vision was? If I say clean, balanced, tight, with a strong lead vocal, and a big sound, that is what I should get!

But I guess those specs are open for expansive interpretation, smh
 
otisvillain said:
Thank you for the reply. I see the main problem as the last two engineers are mixing my tracks to sound like everything else you hear on the radio. Now, I'm shooting for radio quality material, but all uniqueness/originality is lost through the over-processing, synthetic-ness they put into the song! I believe that if the instrument sounds good, why add a lot of processing to it? Maybe some panning, EQ, and a touch of reverb is all that is needed. I also favor a strong main lead vocal, without a lot of processing or excessive harmonies, which seems to be contrary to their vision.

I always send the mixed version of the song that I do myself (instrumental only, I'm still hesitant mixing vocals), which is clean and balanced. I figured that another set of ears, and a well treated room, and someone experienced mixing vocals would take the song to the next level, but that is not what happened. Indeed, a learning experience (expensive!).

I have a few revisions that the engineer allows, so tonight I'm going to spell out in greater detail what my vision is. I think moving forward, right from the start I will hammer home what my vision is
Click to expand...

Gotcha.

So the reference you provide is your own mix, if I understand this correctly. And given that you're handing it over to an engineer, it seems they're not necessarily treating your reference as a "leave this as it is, just make the vocals excellent" kind of thing. Perhaps that's the misunderstanding in this case.

My question then is this: is there any artist or collection of tracks that captures the vibe you're after? i.e. something that's radio-quality yet not over-processed? Because if there is, perhaps that gives your engineers the idea that "guys, seriously don't overdo this".

As an analogy, it sounds like you were hoping for an Aloe Blacc kind of mix, and the engineers thought you wanted a John Legend mix. If that makes sense, lol.
 
musophrenic said:
Gotcha.

So the reference you provide is your own mix, if I understand this correctly. And given that you're handing it over to an engineer, it seems they're not necessarily treating your reference as a "leave this as it is, just make the vocals excellent" kind of thing. Perhaps that's the misunderstanding in this case.

My question then is this: is there any artist or collection of tracks that captures the vibe you're after? i.e. something that's radio-quality yet not over-processed? Because if there is, perhaps that gives your engineers the idea that "guys, seriously don't overdo this".

As an analogy, it sounds like you were hoping for an Aloe Blacc kind of mix, and the engineers thought you wanted a John Legend mix. If that makes sense, lol.
Click to expand...

That is a great point. I think I need to make it very clear what my vision is, and that my mixed reference track, minus vocals, is how I want it to sound. That is exactly what I'm going to tell him before he starts the first revision. Additionally, I'll find a real reference track for him. Some of the blame is on me also.

Make sure we are all on the same page
 
Good luck with it! Sometimes the hardest learning curves on some things end up being the most important lessons.
 
Sometimes it's also hard to mix to a reference track if the recording itself wasn't done properly. That's why is always ideal to record and mix at the same studio.
 
Wolfie2112 said:
I think you are getting two things confused; engineers and producers. Engineers don't really care (in my experience) what you are wanting...and unless you can instruct them precisely during the mixing process, you are going to typically be very unsatisfied. The key is to hire a good producer; who will be able to achieve the end result since they are versed in the whole process. But the key is finding a producer that will achieve what you need.
Click to expand...

I have never come across a (good) engineer who didn't care what the client wanted. In this instance, it sounds like the producer role is shared between client and engineer- the client has the creative vision, and the engineer has the technical know-how and experience to realise that. If Otis isn't getting that, then there's either a problem in communication of expectations, or it might just be that the engineer isn't suited to a particular project.

The other thing I'd say is that mixing to try and match an incomplete ref is difficult because it involves a lot of second guessing- try and supply your engineer with a mix that's representative of where the vocals should sit, even if the sonic quality leaves a lot to be desired.
 
I wear two hats (at least). If I'm not writing, mainly instrumental stuff, I arrange, produce, track and mix (or any combination of those) songs for various singers/songwriters. In my experience, the clearer a client's vision the easier it is to realise it for them.
A lot of the time a songwriter doesn't really know what they want until they hear it but they very quickly know when something isn't working for them.
The more reference tracks the client can supply, the better. It might even be a combination such as the drum sound on track X, the guitar sound on track Y and the piano sound from track Z. Even if it's not possible to do it exactly at least I know the 'feel' they're after.
There's always a lot of give and take. And there are many ways to skin a cat. A particular mix engineer may specialise in a particular genre and will usually be aiming for a fairly current 'flavour of the moment' sound. It's really in the clients interest (financially and artistically) to be as specific as possible, especially if they're after something different.
Same as if a composer is given a brief for a film cue. The more info the better unless you want the composer or mix engineer to 'do their thang'!
 
Scoremixer said:
I have never come across a (good) engineer who didn't care what the client wanted.
Click to expand...

Yes, I used a bad choice of words. I meant more along the lines of what you and London Mike described. Unless they have precise guidance, they are basically going by their own interpretation.
 
First off, you get what you pay for. If you aren't paying an engineer a good amount of money - regardless if they had good reviews - the chances are slim that you are going to get a top quality product.

Secondly, you say this:

I see the main problem as the last two engineers are mixing my tracks to sound like everything else you hear on the radio.

Well, then, they are doing their job, unless you specifically tell them that you are shooting for radio quality material, but do not want to lose all uniqueness/originality through over-processing, synthetic-ness being put into the song.

Your job is not only to write and arrange the song well, but to also properly communicate to your engineer what you are looking for. If you fail to do that, then your dislike of the production results is on you.

Hope that didn't sound harsh, but that's the way it is. Better luck to you in the future! :)
 
otisvillain said:
Do engineers not listen to requests of their clients? I've came to the conclusion that I know exactly how I want my song to sound, and that I am much better served patiently mixing it down and handing off to be mastered. "RANT OVER!!"

Does anyone else have these problems?
Click to expand...

I started mixing my own stuff for the reasons above. But that was back in the 90's when I started writing music. I've been a professional mix engineer for the last 15 years as well and the first thing I do is listen to clients requests! I'm hired to do the best job I can and make my clients happy with the end result. I'd say, if you want to patiently mix yourself, go for it. And get a mastering engineer who can give you feedback to improve your mixes. Otherwise, keep looking for a good mixing engineer that fits your mold and vision. They are out there. Good luck.
 
otisvillain said:
Hey all-

What ever happened to the principle of less is more? Keep it simple? The last two engineers I brought tracks to (they had good reviews), have not done a good job at all. I wanted clean, balanced, tight sounding tracks. The results were over-processed, all-vocal tracks.
Click to expand...
That sucks! Are you sure it were proessional engineers or people who pretend they are professional engineers?

otisvillain said:
Do engineers not listen to requests of their clients? I've came to the conclusion that I know exactly how I want my song to sound, and that I am much better served patiently mixing it down and handing off to be mastered. "RANT OVER!!"

Does anyone else have these problems?
Click to expand...
No, but I am an engineer. I am afraid there are some engineers who think they are producers. As an engineer you are in the service business and good engineers deliver the service the client ask for and give something extra that makes the work of the client better. In your case the engineers did the opposite. I would not hire them again.
 
erica-grace said:
First off, you get what you pay for. If you aren't paying an engineer a good amount of money - regardless if they had good reviews - the chances are slim that you are going to get a top quality product.
Click to expand...
Very true!

erica-grace said:
Your job is not only to write and arrange the song well, but to also properly communicate to your engineer what you are looking for. If you fail to do that, then your dislike of the production results is on you.
Click to expand...
I ask my clients what they want and discuss with them examples they send me. Imo It is part of the job of an engineer to find out what a client has in mind. Not always easy, but you cannot start a recording or mixing session when there is understanding about the project between the people involved.
 
ryst said:
And get a mastering engineer who can give you feedback to improve your mixes.
Click to expand...
I do not agree. Mastering engineers can give important tips about the sound in general, but they are not specialists on mixing. If you want to mix your own work it would be a better idea to invite a good and experienced mix engineer to your studio for a few hours to help you out.
 
Joram said:
I do not agree. Mastering engineers can give important tips about the sound in general, but they are not specialists on mixing. If you want to mix your own work it would be a better idea to invite a good and experienced mix engineer to your studio for a few hours to help you out.
Click to expand...

That certainly hasn't been my experience. I've gotten great advice from top level mastering engineers that have helped a lot in improving my mixes. I do agree that getting mix help from other mixing engineers is great too.
 
otisvillain said:
Hey all-

What ever happened to the principle of less is more? Keep it simple? The last two engineers I brought tracks to (they had good reviews), have not done a good job at all. I wanted clean, balanced, tight sounding tracks. The results were over-processed, all-vocal tracks.

Do engineers not listen to requests of their clients? I've came to the conclusion that I know exactly how I want my song to sound, and that I am much better served patiently mixing it down and handing off to be mastered. "RANT OVER!!"

Does anyone else have these problems?
Click to expand...

yep I wouldn't trust them. From what review have they got good reviews from? What kind of engineers are they?

If anything, you can just do your own engineering since you know your song the best. There are a few mastering/mixing companies that do it really well but they mainly do EDM and trance. However I could put my trust in them because EDM/trance are actually really hard to mix/master compared to other stuff.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom