My experience so far with expansions for Falcon and PhasePlant

[emptyvessel]

Falcon expansions cost $39 and include about 100-130 presets.
PhasePlant content banks cost $29 and include about 50 presets.

While I love EDM, I'm not really into dubstep/trance/techno and the like, so I mostly purchased cinematic-themed libraries so far.

PhasePlant
What I like about PhasePlant presets, is that they have a description, giving advice on how to use them: try chords, play this register, use the modwhell, ...
This is a feature I'd like UVI to copy, since for Falcon, there's only an overall Expansion description.

I purchased Animus, Suspension, Tremor
I'm deeply disappointed. Many presets are not great to bad, I don't think there's much value.
...

I'm a bit gutted you were that disappointed with Suspension, Cedric.
I have a 32 preset pack available for Phase Plant in my own store that is more my usual style, which of course may not be a fit for you anyway, the pads I feel are pretty organic and evolving and should be very usable. If you'd like to flick me a message I can sort you a d/l link for the pack, I'd be interested in your thoughts. I think PhasePlant is a very versatile synth. Personally I find it easier to get quickly to the kinds of results I want with Falcon and Pigments, especially wrt the effects, but this isn't a reflection of the overall capability of PhasePlant, just timbral/character preferences.

In terms of individual patch descriptions - it is a possibility in Falcon btw if the sound designer chooses to use it. In the graphical UI "Info" page there is a small i in the top right of the interface, this opens a text window where the sound designer is able to type what they like:


It's limited in that you can't see it until you open the preset but at least there is some way for the sound designer to communicate some thoughts and background about the preset if they choose.

 

[gamma-ut]

The idea is that instead of using Midi CCs you'd use the macros for that.

Frankly, that illustrates my core point. This setup is fine if you're using a single MIDI controller surface with discrete knobs. It's very much an setup that's aimed at self-contained, self-modulating presets where the performer is tweaking knobs. If you're using a variety of controllers, say a Linnstrument or Touché, TEC breath controller or whatever, move-a-knob MIDI learn is a royal PITA because getting it to learn the right CC is a bit of a crapshoot. I actually have a Novation SL set up with the common expression controllers on a row of knobs so I can send a clean MIDI signal for this kind of learning. Personally, I'd rather not and though that is a personal gripe I think it speaks to the design priorities of different synths and why they end up with the kinds of preset libraries they do.

Also, bizarrely, MIDI learn isn't even mentioned in the PP manual (or if it is I can't find it) - they seem to assume that host automation is what people will use for the macros.

I also just remembered that, unless I'm doing something wrong, the MIDI bindings aren't saved with the preset.

 

[cedricm]

I'm a bit gutted you were that disappointed with Suspension, Cedric.
I have a 32 preset pack available for Phase Plant in my own store that is more my usual style, which of course may not be a fit for you anyway, the pads I feel are pretty organic and evolving and should be very usable. If you'd like to flick me a message I can sort you a d/l link for the pack, I'd be interested in your thoughts. I think PhasePlant is a very versatile synth. Personally I find it easier to get quickly to the kinds of results I want with Falcon and Pigments, especially wrt the effects, but this isn't a reflection of the overall capability of PhasePlant, just timbral/character preferences.

In terms of individual patch descriptions - it is a possibility in Falcon btw if the sound designer chooses to use it. In the graphical UI "Info" page there is a small i in the top right of the interface, this opens a text window where the sound designer is able to type what they like:


It's limited in that you can't see it until you open the preset but at least there is some way for the sound designer to communicate some thoughts and background about the preset if they choose.

Hi Empty Vessel,

I PMed you re:the 32-preset pack.

Since you took time to answer this thread in a constructive way, the least I can do is
give Suspension another try tomorrow.

 

[emptyvessel]

Hi Empty Vessel,

I PMed you re:the 32-preset pack.

Since you took time to answer this thread in a constructive way, the least I can do is
give Suspension another try tomorrow.

tbh I haven't listened to those Suspension patches for quite a while, I may revisit them myself and see how I feel. I felt at the time that my good friend Uwe/Arovane had done a good job on Tremor too so I was surprised to read you weren't keen on that either.

Looking forward to your feedback anyway. Constructive criticism is always welcome

 

[Pier]

I also just remembered that, unless I'm doing something wrong, the MIDI bindings aren't saved with the preset.

AFAIK the MIDI bindings are saved globally, not per preset.

 

[Pier]

Both left me really unsatisfied, and I didn't buy either. They both sound just like Vital, which in turn sounds just like Serum. It's that cold digital wavetable sound.

I've never demoed Synthmaster or Serum, but PhasePlant can have a very different sound from Vital.

I wouldn't judge PhasePlant from the online demos (or its libraries). For $10 you can subscribe for a month and fully test it out for yourself.

In fact, listen to this quick test I did:




Definitely also listen to the .wav I've attached too.

If PhasePlant has such a "cold digital wavetable sound" you shouldn't have any trouble figuring out which of the four sounds it is, no?

The other ones are ZebraHZ (with Diva ladder filter), Dune (also the ladder emulation), and Repro.

 

[Trensharo]

The idea is that instead of using Midi CCs you'd use the macros for that.

You can right click on the macro knob, and then midi learn with any CC you'd like.



So now you can browse the presets and tweak the macros much like you'd tweak the XY performance things in Zebra, but without having to ever leave the preset browser. Even use the mouse if one prefers that.

In my case, since I'm using Bitwig, these macros are automatically mapped to my knobs.



I know Ableton Live has a similar feature. I wrote this mini tutorial on how to set it up.

Not sure about Cubase and Logic, but I think Studio One has a similar feature called macros.

Channel Editor

Cubase has Macros. I think SONAR/Cakewalk has them, as well.

 

[emptyvessel]

@liquidlino
Curious about the catchall term of "wavetable group of soft-synths" given Phase Plant has 4 engines, 1 of which is wavetable, the same as Pigments although the sampler engine there also has a granular mode so strictly 5. Both synths (and Synthmaster fwiw) have great tonal range. Perhaps they inherently all have a clean digital sound unless programmed to avoid this but that could be said about most digital synthesisers. I'm not challenging or being argumentative btw, life's way too short, just pointing out that viewing those synths as wavetable synths is under-representing their capabilities.
Great that you're bringing audio into Falcon & Pigments, by far my favourite way to work for organic results.

@Pier
opening myself up here but my pick is that 1 & 3 are U-He synths. I like all but the 4th and 3 is my favourite. If the order you've put them in in the title is correct then I'm slightly wrong but I've never used Dune (#disclaimer)

 

[Pier]

Fair play, I can't hear anything distinguishable between those. Of them, the second one would be my choice - has that extra analogueness, seems non-linear in the filter, and more saturated. Will be interesting which one that is...

So what did you use in Phaseplant for this? Is it an anlogue saw wavetable? Is it Phaseplants filter, or are you cycling through the wavetable?

I used the default saw in all synths, and then simply put the filter and modulated it with the modwheel. Nothing else.

In PhasePlant I used the analog saw and the ladder filter (it's not available in the voice config but the effects).

This is it:



1) Repro
2) Dune
3) ZebraHZ with the Diva filter
4) PhasePlant

Also, a single note tends not to be very informative... would be interesting to get the same demo, buit with the minor third being played as well at the same time. Will show a lot more difference I expect.

Your wish is my command:



(let me know if you want the wav)

Same order, same everything except that I switched Repro 1 for Repro 5.

Obviously there are differences, but I don't think PhasePlant sticks out as being cold and digital.

opening myself up here but my pick is that 1 & 3 are U-He synths. I like all but the 4th and 3 is my favourite. If the order you've put them in in the title is correct then I'm slightly wrong but I've never used Dune (#disclaimer)

Wow I'm impressed you were able to catch that.

 

[Pier]

Curious about the catchall term of "wavetable group of soft-synths" given Phase Plant has 4 engines, 1 of which is wavetable, the same as Pigments although the sampler engine there also has a granular mode so strictly 5. Both synths (and Synthmaster fwiw) have great tonal range.

Zebra is also a wavetable synth.

Honestly, I think the filters and maybe some mojo in the audio path (VCA, feedback, etc) is where the magic really is. Not so much in the oscillators.

 

[doctoremmet]

Amazing, I think the only real difference I can pick up is that repro has some tuning drift going on, the others sound near identical to each other. Don't suppose you want to include a Falcon example too? (only joking, don't need to!).

Pier sold Falcon mere weeks after announcing it had landed

Cool test lads! I (as usually is the case) failed miserably. Props for Greg!!

 

[doctoremmet]

I have done so many tests, I’m done with them haha. I have tested revered classics like the OB-Xa, ARP Oddyssey, PPG Wave, Microwave 1, DX7, CZ1000, FZ1, and many other hardware synths (present here) against both direct emulations and other softsynths and even samples of the actual synths - and personally I basically almost always scored 50/50 (in a properly set up test of course, like the one you have prepared here). This has lead me to conclude that my personal “fun” with synths is mostly correlated with a good sound and a nice UI, and that any claims of ‘realism’ (and lack thereof) of an emulation and the “huge difference” that hardware can make -to me- are extreme exaggerations. This is not to say I do not believe some of you can spot a difference from ten miles away. Because I also always disclaim my message by saying I likely have bad ears, bad taste and probably even both. What I can tell you though is that some of these differences are claimed by people who have never had any exposure to ‘real’ hardware synths and that is why some of the claimed differences may have taken on mythical proportions in their heads, when in reality software synths really come awefully close, and -again to my ears- often even sound better.

 

[cedricm]

OK,
Here's my honest feedback, I'll leave it up to you to decide if it's linked to personal taste or else.

Empty Vessel's SleepSystem
It's pretty much what I hoped Suspension would be: a great collection of cinematic / ambient pads.
I favorited about half the pads.
For the price, it's highly recommended.

Empty Vessel's Suspension
I'm afraid a second and a third listening didn't change my assessment.
I realize taste isn't universal and what I don't like many will.

Globally, while the pads are different, they somehow all sound the same to me. Perhaps the "wobbliness intervals" are too similar or something.

The modwheel for glitch doesn't do it for me, but it may delight other customers.

Epic 2 doesn't work: one hears nothing. I tested in Studio One 5.4 and Bitwig 4.1*.

Bugs and randomness
Hearing patches many times, I did not hear the same everytime.
First, I thought this was a bug in PhasePlant (1.8.21 btw).
Then, I assumed it was the use of randomness for some parameters. Sorry, I didn't have time to check.

Here, views will probably vary. I welcome randomness. But I think you chose probability values that were way too small. I appreciate having some randomness during a 20s pad sequence. But if the 10th time I hear a preset, it sounds different, it's too unpredictable for me.

Examples: Epic 3, Metamorph.
Example 2: Mindwash. Sometimes, it's so quiet I thought it wasn't working.

Nocturn
Perhaps it's of no consequence whatsoever. The reverb tail is about 10s. But the sound continues to play (mostly inaudible but visible on the meters and on lane 3) for a good 40 s after that.

PS. You should consider making presets for Falcon

* Trying to import my midi project in Bitwig didn't work at first. I got an error message that the 8-track limit was exceeded. That's no way to program if you ask me. Bitwig should have imported the first 8 tracks or asked me if I wanted to.

 

[Pier]

Pier sold Falcon mere weeks after announcing it had landed

Cool test lads! I (as usually is the case) failed miserably. Props for Greg!!

In fact I didn't... I have to wait until February to be able to sell it!

 

[Pier]

I think we need a better test, this one doesn't seem to differentiate much....

The thing is, there are so many factors contributing to the final sound of a synth and there's a lot of placebo (for a lack of a better word) in our perception of sound. Look at the audiophile world where people rave about cables that cost thousands of dollars, which is absolute nonsense.

When listening to Vital and PhasePlant libraries, the digital feeling you're getting might come from a particular effect like the Disperser, or just because the designer used tons of multiband compression which does give this unnatural modern effect compared to pure analog.

Another test that could be done would be to drive the filters. This would probably show significant differences between the different filter modelings, but I don't think PhasePlant would come as evidently digital either. At least to me. @Empty Vessel with his privileged ears might have a different opinion

I've always suspected U-He does introduce saturation in the signal path of their synths or maybe something else. I suspect this is what actually gives them their revered organic qualities since so many companies have been able to model non linear filters pretty successfully.

Another example, if you look at Spire, it has a multiband compression at the output that many (most?) presets use. I'm sure this contributes to the perception of "the Spire sound".

Heck, maybe once we've made up our mind regarding the sound of a synth, our brain just catalogues it as "analog" or "cold and digital", etc. Just because sound designers tend to use it in one way or another. And that taints our perception of course.

This video comparing Diva and Serum really challenged my assumptions when I saw it. I'm not saying that there aren't differences between the two, but that maybe in many cases it's not so big as we imagine it to be.



Edit:

Personally, when watching that video there are many instances when I preferred the sound of Serum. Although it's a shame he didn't include the wav. Not sure how Youtube encodes the audio, but I can hear a big difference between my wav and the Soundcloud encoding.

 

[Bee_Abney]

The thing is, there are so many factors contributing to the final sound of a synth and there's a lot of placebo (for a lack of a better word) in our perception of sound. Look at the audiophile world where people rave about cables that cost thousands of dollars, which is absolute nonsense.

When listening to Vital and PhasePlant libraries, the digital feeling you're getting might come from a particular effect like the Disperser, or just because the designer used tons of multiband compression which does give this unnatural modern effect compared to pure analog.

Another test that could be done would be to drive the filters. This would probably show significant differences between the different filter modelings, but I don't think PhasePlant would come as evidently digital either. At least to me. @Empty Vessel with his privileged ears might have a different opinion

I've always suspected U-He does introduce saturation in the signal path of their synths or maybe something else. I suspect this is what actually gives them their revered organic qualities since so many companies have been able to model non linear filters pretty successfully.

Another example, if you look at Spire, it has a multiband compression at the output that many (most?) presets use. I'm sure this contributes to the perception of "the Spire sound".

Heck, maybe once we've made up our mind regarding the sound of a synth, our brain just catalogues it as "analog" or "cold and digital", etc. Just because sound designers tend to use it in one way or another. And that taints our perception of course.

This video comparing Diva and Serum really challenged my assumptions when I saw it. I'm not saying that there aren't differences between the two, but that maybe in many cases it's not so big as we imagine it to be.



Edit:

Personally, when watching that video there are many instances when I preferred the sound of Serum. Although it's a shame he didn't include the wav. Not sure how Youtube encodes the audio, but I can hear a big difference between my wav and the Soundcloud encoding.

All of that is true except... my synth is better than yours. Yours sounds X, whilst mine sounds not-X. Mine can do Y, whilst yours flounders about in the shallow pools of B and C.

Also, hardware analog synths rule. Just because.

Real music doesn't use synths anyway. Electric guitars and a thousand-piece drum kit - it's the only authentic music.

I'm probably missing some key bases... Oh, yes, having frets on your bass is like having training wheels on your bicycle and entering the Tour de France.


I just love sounds.

 

[doctoremmet]

To paraphrase LCD Soundsystem:

I hear all the synthesizers I know are more relevant than the synthesizers you know

I hear you and your band have sold your computers and have bought a syntheziser and a sequencer, because you want to make something REAL. You want to make a Yazoo record

 

[doctoremmet]

Translation for VI-C people:

My synth of choice is also used by Hans Zimmer

 

[Michel Simons]

All of that is true except... my synth is better than yours. Yours sounds X, whilst mine sounds not-X. Mine can do Y, whilst yours flounders about in the shallow pools of B and C.

Also, hardware analog synths rule. Just because.

Real music doesn't use synths anyway. Electric guitars and a thousand-piece drum kit - it's the only authentic music.

I'm probably missing some key bases... Oh, yes, having frets on your bass is like having training wheels on your bicycle and entering the Tour de France.


I just love sounds.

Electric guitars aren't real instruments.

 

[Pier]

Electric guitars aren't real instruments.

Honestly, if you're not making drums from the skins of goats you've raised yourself you're not a real musician.