More than 16 MIDI channels in one instance of VEP to use on Logic Pro

[Wensleydale]

I am as confused as you about how Kontakt handles MIDI channels when it's inside VEP. But, fwiw, my understanding is that you only get one output from each VEP "channel" (which seems to be VEP-speak for a plug-in slot). You can get 16 or 25 outputs from each VEP instance, but you don't get 16x16 just because you are using plug-ins (like Kontakt) which would give you multiple outputs if you loaded them directly in Logic. If that's rubbish I look forward to being corrected.

 

[marclawsonmusic]

If you need multiple outputs from a VEP channel, there is a + button near the bottom of the fader.

Simply add another stereo out in Kontakt and press the + button to add an aux channel in VEP. It will have the 3|4 stereo out.

 

[Wensleydale]

If you need multiple outputs from a VEP channel, there is a + button near the bottom of the fader.

Simply add another stereo out in Kontakt and press the + button to add an aux channel in VEP. It will have the 3|4 stereo out.

Thanks! Clearly I'm even more confused than I thought. But you are still limited to 25 stereo outputs per VEP instance, right?

 

[marclawsonmusic]

Thanks! Clearly I'm even more confused than I thought. But you are still limited to 25 stereo outputs per VEP instance, right?

That is configurable in preferences. You can have up to 32 audio outputs per instance, which I believe equates to 16 stereo pairs.

In Logic, these come back in as auxes. In Cubase, you can enable the additional stereo outputs in the instrument.

PS - More audio outputs = more CPU usage, so plan carefully!

 

[Dewdman42]

vepro can do more then 16 stereo outs but I’m not sure the limit, must be 32? My computer is in storage for the foreseeable future or I would check. Logicpro, however, is limited to 25 stereo pairs per multi instrument so with logicpro that is the max you can use.

I agree about cpu overhead of mixing it all in logicpro that. Why not just consider vepro part of your mixer and mix things there? You can always split off some stems if you need to or handle a couple instruments separately. There are advantages to using vepro as sub mixer

But if you really want to mix entirely in the daw, then I would consider just using one vepro instances per instrument track.

 

[Wensleydale]

I found a post by David Nahmani from last year in which he said:

"Multi-output (vs stereo output) is just related to how the audio signals from the multiple timbres are routed in Logic's mixer (either all on one channel strip or separated into multiple channel strips). That has zero impact on CPU usage or load distribution."

Dewdman42 and marclawsonmusic, do you disagree with that? I'm not challenging what you say, just wondering which of these posts I have misunderstood. David was referring to multi-outputs from Kontakt rather than VEP, but does that make a difference on this point?

 

[Dewdman42]

I think anything more will use more resources. Not zero difference. In the case of vepro, we are taking about more streams of audio that have to be buffered separately and returned back to the daw as separate data streams. That will fundamentally not be zero. I can’t vouch for or against whatever David said that you are quoting out of context.

Additionally, if you use vepro as a slave, then you will definitely have a large increase in network traffic by using many audio streams. There are many old posts on this forum you can find with people talking about this issue and the best thing is to try both ways and see what works best for you.

 

[Wensleydale]

The context was that David was explaining the difference between multitimbrality (which "is what affects CPU usage and load distribution in Logic Pro") and multi-outputs. But he was clearly trying to make the explanation as simple as possible, and perhaps thought it unnecessary to distinguish between "zero difference" and "relatively little difference".

It doesn't actually affect me directly, since I don't particularly want multiple outputs. I only got sucked into this discussion through misguidedly trying to answer TheWhat's question!

 

[gsilbers]

Just to be clear on what's going on here. Apple doesn't want people to work with the "sound module" workflow and rather have one instrument=one track. And it's seeing the multi timbral plugins as how things used to be done back in the days of 16 midi ch sound modules and limited technology. So upping the 16 midi channel count won't happen anytime soon.

So what about hundred of tracks templates? well, essentially you do that without VEP and have a much faster and easier streamlined experience. Is that happening right now? well, kind of. Some composers are using the offload feature in logic to start tracks either powered off or with Kontakt not loading ram until notes are played. This way a thousand track template opens in seconds in newer apple silicon Macs with large ram capacity.

Some composers are still rather use the VEP workflow and others still don't have newer kickass Macs but maybe the m3 Macs will work for this.

Not that the VEP workflow is bad it's just that apple is aiming to not do this and opting to get composers to use one track=one VI instrument and subfolders/summing tracks.

So you can still the sound module workflow with VEP but it would be with dewdmans amazing template that's essentially like its done with cubase/dp etc.

 

[TheWhat]

It doesn't actually affect me directly, since I don't particularly want multiple outputs. I only got sucked into this discussion through misguidedly trying to answer TheWhat's question!

Don't blame me. I also seek the knowledge. Thanks for the template and the explainations so far, Vepro 7 is all new to me. I do know for a fact that using it with Logic has helped with spreading the resource pain on my m1 studio with 32 gb ram and an old 2018 mac mini i5 with 64 gb ram. I need to really come up with work methods though because I find myself mixing in Logic and Vepro at the same time which seems like it might become some tangled christmas lights down the road if I don't just pick one to load effects on, I'm leaning towards mixing with Vepro at this point.

 

[emilio_n]

After spending all weekend playing around with the great template of @Dewdman42 , reading all the threads on VI-C about the topic and getting crazy with all the difficult concepts for someone with my knowledge about this, I concluded that in my case (Mac Studio M1 Ultra, Logic User and not professional at all) the best path is create a template without VEP to keep the things simpler. In this way, I can learn how Logic Pro works with the routing and add VEP in the future if I need it.
VEP may have more sense on Cubase or in older gear, but as @gsilbers said, Logic is not developed to work well (or easily) with VEP now.

I will keep my VEP licence for the future and try something simpler. Creating a template is a very time-consuming task!

Thanks to all for your feedback!

 

[Olympum]

After spending all weekend playing around with the great template of @Dewdman42 , reading all the threads on VI-C about the topic and getting crazy with all the difficult concepts for someone with my knowledge about this, I concluded that in my case (Mac Studio M1 Ultra, Logic User and not professional at all) the best path is create a template without VEP to keep the things simpler. In this way, I can learn how Logic Pro works with the routing and add VEP in the future if I need it.
VEP may have more sense on Cubase or in older gear, but as @gsilbers said, Logic is not developed to work well (or easily) with VEP now.

I will keep my VEP licence for the future and try something simpler. Creating a template is a very time-consuming task!

Thanks to all for your feedback!

You may also use an instrument per track and one VEP project per instrument. I posted about it here a bit ago, what’s nice is that since Logic is very efficient it only activates the audio and CPU when needed and the host runs super smoothly. This approach does not work with Cubase as it keeps all instances active.

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/instrument-tracks-with-vep.137096/post-5302780

 

[emilio_n]

You may also use an instrument per track and one VEP project per instrument. I posted about it here a bit ago, what’s nice is that since Logic is very efficient it only activates the audio and CPU when needed and the host runs super smoothly. This approach does not work with Cubase as it keeps all instances active.

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/instrument-tracks-with-vep.137096/post-5302780

Hey @Olympum !
Thanks for the suggestion. I will try this way. My only concern is that with so many instances inside VEP will be a nightmare to have all in order!

 

[Dewdman42]

Logicpro and vepro work ok together, there are pros and cons of every daw. Logicpro definitely needs an update related to multi timbral Inst usage in general, but it can handle large templates on its own too. There are pros and cons to using vepro with any daw. If you need the pros you can usually learn to live with cons or work around them, but many people don’t need vepro it is true.

The reason I like it is because I have nearly every vsl orchestra library and mirpro and vepro integrates all of that very nicely. Also I really like having an orchestra loaded in vepro ready to go while I can quickly switch projects in my daw without having to reload all the samples. It’s no problem to start a new template in logicpro alone with disabled tracks sure, but if you need or want to switch between already in progress projects without reloading samples then vepro is very helpful. Not only that but I can insure the orchestral mix is consistent across projects if they are closely related such as cues of a film, for example.

The downside of vepro is that it does elevate setup complexity and in logicpro you have to deal with multi timbral quirks unless you want to do one instrument per vep instance, which does have some advantages, but also loses one of my preferences which is to mix in vepro.

There are numerous different ways to work, there is not one perfect way.

 

[emilio_n]

Logicpro and vepro work ok together, there are pros and cons of every daw. Logicpro definitely needs an update related to multi timbral Inst usage in general, but it can handle large templates on its own too. There are pros and cons to using vepro with any daw. If you need the pros you can usually learn to live with cons or work around them, but many people don’t need vepro it is true.

The reason I like it is because I have nearly every vsl orchestra library and mirpro and vepro integrates all of that very nicely. Also I really like having an orchestra loaded in vepro ready to go while I can quickly switch projects in my daw without having to reload all the samples. It’s no problem to start a new template in logicpro alone with disabled tracks sure, but if you need or want to switch between already in progress projects without reloading samples then vepro is very helpful. Not only that but I can insure the orchestral mix is consistent across projects if they are closely related such as cues of a film, for example.

The downside of vepro is that it does elevate setup complexity and in logicpro you have to deal with multi timbral quirks unless you want to do one instrument per vep instance, which does have some advantages, but also loses one of my preferences which is to mix in vepro.

There are numerous different ways to work, there is not one perfect way.

I want to do a template Logic + VEP with one instance per orchestra section. I don't want to give it up, but I am finding strange behaviour. When I create all the AUX tracks from the "main" VEP AU3 on Logic, the first instance on the mixer (The main track to say something) takes the name of the last AUX track of the pool.

Why is this happening? If I change the name on the Mixer, this is changed on the track section on LP. How can I correct this? Change the name (and the icon) but not the sound.

Sorry if I am not too clear with the naming,

 

[Dewdman42]

Yea I agree, logicpro has some weird idiosyncrasies like that with multi timbral instruments . Make sure to report the bug to apple. It can get confused about icons too

 

[Wensleydale]

While idly tinkering with the settings in the AU3 plug-in today, I was surprised to see that Logic can now access all 48 ports of a VEP instance, without any messing about in the Environment. I'm sure it could only see 8 ports when I last wrestled with it a few months ago, and I haven't seen any mention of the change.



(I still don't understand how it is that I can use 48 ports when my VEP preferences are set to 8, but I'm not complaining.)

I was also pleasantly surprised to find that I can set separate parameters for the VEP tracks, such as delay. When I tried this a few days ago, I couldn't set the delay on one track without affecting the rest. And there hasn't been an update recently. Am I going mad?

Anyway this seems to offer new options for template design, so the day when I might finally get round to making some music is going to be further delayed.

 

[Dewdman42]

It was always able to do that. The limitation is if you try to use more then 127 channels across those 48 ports then logic will blow up or at least it would before; I don’t know if 10.8 had fixed that limitation but I doubt it

 

[Wensleydale]

It was always able to do that. The limitation is if you try to use more then 127 channels across those 48 ports then logic will blow up or at least it would before; I don’t know if 10.8 had fixed that limitation but I doubt it

Oh yes, I remember that now. I just tried it, and sadly this is still the case in 10.8.1. I know you have devised cunning workarounds.

I think what must have happened when I last looked at this was that I could see more than 8 ports in Dorico (using the VST3 plug-in) and jumped to the conclusion that only being able to see 8 ports in Logic was a limitation in Logic. I probably didn’t realise that I had to increase the ports setting in the plug-in, not just in VEP. I'm learning ... I’m just a bit slow.

 

[GoofyTroop]

I spent all afternoon trying to create a stack of VI tracks (Synchron Woodwinds) from one instance of VEP Pro on Logic Pro.
I tried everything (AU, AU3...) and I am not able to add more than 16 MIDI channels. I'm sure that I'm doing something wrong as it can't be so complicated.
Does anyone know an easy way to do it? Maybe I'm just wasting my time and it's better not to use VEP. I am using a single Mac Studio Ultra.

Thanks in advance!

Not sure if its the same. But i quit using logic after they updated it. Its like putting a ring on a pig to make multi timbral 16 channel instrument's.
I can creat them but all the faders move as one on all the 16 midi channels. Now when i load old logic sequences its a cluster F of mess and trashed seq. Now more independent fader moves. I just called Tim a “Tim Crook” with clown shoes and use Motu DP 11 or Cubase 12. Never looked back. I tried logic 3 days ago as a director wanted and quick mix of a old cue i did years back. It took like 15 min to load, then screwed up all my multi timbral instruments and mixes. Then it crashes. So i exported midi and opened in dp 11.3, reassigned to my template. And BAM! Worked perfect no crashes.

If anyone can teach me how to make multitimbral instruments in logic without have 16 instance's of kontakt, and faders independent please enlighten me. I loved logic. Apple support could not help. I just never looked back. Just moved in to a different software that makes adding multi timbral instruments a one click thing… just like old logic did for years.
Now its a unstable mess of frustration.