What's new

Mockup: The Sorcerer's Apprentice (Full-Length), P. Dukas - SM Strings/Brass, AS VWinds, Pianoteq, Cineperc, MIR 3D

mbishop

Senior Member


Strings:
- Samplemodeling Strings
- BBCSO strings (harmonics-only in the opening 2 minutes)

Woodwinds: Acoustic Samples VWinds
Brass: Samplemodeling Brass

Percussion:
- Cineperc
- Recorded Suspended Cymbal

Pitched Percussion: Pianoteq (Glockenspiel, Harp)
Reverb: MIR 3D (Grosses Festspielhaus Salzburg)

Score: https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ReverseLookup/595907

0:00 - Intro
1:12 - M 14
2:28 - Rehearsal 7 (Bassoon Entrance)
4:17 - M 294
6:49 - Rehearsal 42
8:08 - M 789
9:33 - Rehearsal 56
10:40 - End



3 months ago this was supposed to be an exercise in making a template playable in Divisimate. Then it was going to be a template balancing exercise, experimenting with panning and positioning the instruments. That led me to change my reverb. And then I changed it again. And then I decided this would be an avenue to best learn the modeled and sample-modeled instruments. And then I changed my instrument lineup when VWinds Flutes came out. And then I changed the reverb again.

You know how it is, tinker tinker, trying to eke out that last bit of perfect performance that you hear in your head. But now I have to stop tinkering and actually put it out there. (Besides, my MIR 3D demo is about to expire!)

I've never expected that I could get these instruments to have the same tone as an acoustic instrument, but I'd hoped to get something that at least sounds alive. I wanted to make something that sounded like a vintage classical recording.

I would be thrilled to receive any nit-picky comments you might have about the performance, balance and tone of the instruments, or the music production aspects. I've heard it many, many times and at this point, I'm not able to notice what the rest of you can.

Enjoy. I hope to have produced something worth criticizing!

 
Last edited:
Given the level of histrionics the woodwinds have to go through in this piece, I think you've done an awesome job overall! Even the solo woodwind passages hold up really well from a depth and energy perspective to my ears.

No specific criticism to offer, but I think you hit the mark of the "vintage" sound that you were going for. I personally don't see 100% "realism" as the goal of a sampled or modelled mock-up, anyways.

I have to imagine that was a lot of work, but it was worth it! As someone who has not bought a dedicated solo WW library, yet, and has been looking at offerings like CSW and VWinds, this is a really helpful demo in seeing what these instruments can do. 😀
 
I think you hit the mark of the "vintage" sound that you were going for. I personally don't see 100% "realism" as the goal of a sampled or modelled mock-up, anyways.
Thanks for the comments! I'm glad to know that it does sound "vintage" to you. I didn't really know exactly how to do that, but I used one of the UAD freebies to give it some tape saturation.

Mockup: The Sorcerer's Apprentice (Full-Length), P. Dukas - SM Strings/Brass, AS VWinds, Pianoteq, Cineperc, MIR 3D

I remembered Trash Panda saying that was a challenge with modeled instruments since they were "too clean"


One really hard challenge for me, was what to do in those silent moments because when there was no sound, there really was no sound. It was dead. No air, no nothing. So I actually gathered some samples of dead space from an orchestral recording and faded them in during those moments. I'm not sure how successful it was, but at least it didn't have that "wait, did playback stop?" deadness.

Thank you again for your comments. I can't tell you how relieved I am to be able to finally share it and get it out of my system!

As someone who has not bought a dedicated solo WW library, yet, and has been looking at offerings like CSW and VWinds, this is a really helpful demo in seeing what these instruments can do.
I'm happy to post just the woodwinds if you like! This has been such a learning experience for me, that I'm happy to post whatever folks are interested in, dry instruments, just sections, etc…
 
Im actually working on the same piece, so I was very happy to see someone else take a shot at this. It's not an easy one but I think you have done a wonderful job. The flute runs at 3:19 sound great and I'm using VWinds as well, but I think mine sounds a to much synth at the moment. Do you mind sharing how you programmed that part? Attached an image of what I've got.

Also the solo violin at the end sounds great, is that sample modeling as well?
 

Attachments

  • Mockup: The Sorcerer's Apprentice (Full-Length), P. Dukas - SM Strings/Brass, AS VWinds, Pianoteq, Cineperc, MIR 3D
    Flute runs.png
    73.3 KB · Views: 13
Im actually working on the same piece, so I was very happy to see someone else take a shot at this. It's not an easy one but I think you have done a wonderful job.
Thank you and I sincerely hope you end up having done this in a smarter and more efficient manner than I did! I self-sabotaged many times. :(

The flute runs at 3:19 sound great and I'm using VWinds as well, but I think mine sounds a to much synth at the moment. Do you mind sharing how you programmed that part? Attached an image of what I've got.

You bet. I'll see if I can excerpt the MIDI for you as well, but in the meantime, here are the notes and my expression lane. It's not that different from yours to my eyes:
1714425133846.png

When I was thinking about these, I used the "humanize" function to slightly alter the note-ons, velocities, and note-offs. For these kinds of quick, synchronized runs, I also thought it would be very hard for a group of flutes to blow through them in a truly synchronized way, so I went back to the note-ons for each run and made sure they were even a little more sloppy than the rest of the run. The idea was that it's easier for players to synchronize after they have started playing, but on that first note, there is more variation.

Perhaps more important might be the instrument settings. If they are sounding synthy, that might be because they are perfectly in tune with each other. Here's what I have on the flutes. The "Pitch" section might be interesting. I can't remember how much I may have tweaked them:
Screenshot 2024-04-29 at 5.21.52 PM.png Screenshot 2024-04-29 at 5.21.40 PM.png Screenshot 2024-04-29 at 5.22.02 PM.png

Also the solo violin at the end sounds great, is that sample modeling as well?
That is indeed. Because it's so exposed, I went over that a number of times until I got just exactly the right emotional feel. I listened to a few different recordings as well to find things I liked from all the different interpretations. It's also on its own track and closer to the microphones in MIR so it will stand out a bit.
 
Last edited:
Amazing!!! I started it playing and turned back to my dayjob work, and forgot almost immediately that its samples. Fantastic mockup, and perhaps the best I've heard in quite some time. Right up there with the best. Extraordinary what you can get out of modelled instruments these days.
 
This must have been a lot of work! As Paul@Sydney says - it's good enough that you just listen to the music, I don't get distracted by the libraries at all. Bravo! :thumbsup:
 
The "Pitch" section might be interesting.
The Pitch! Yes that does help a lot.

One thing that I like is to increase the Decay time in the flute settings a little bit, I have it on 280 on Flute 1 and 2, to me that sounds more convincing for the shorts.

I don't want to contribute to more self sabotage, but I noticed you have Berlin Studio as well - it sounds reeeally good with BS..... just saying :)

Could you maybe post an audio example of Viola from rehearsal 17 / bar 198 to 238?
It's 3:30 in your version.
I find it hard to decide to go for a more legato or staccatissimo approach here. I think you really nailed the "clarity of each note" vs "sluring fast legato".
 
The Pitch! Yes that does help a lot.
Excellent. I also detuned any place where strings were playing in octaves (though I could probably detune them even a bit more). That's because of this post on this forum:


If you haven't already read it, that whole thread is fantastic.

One thing that I like is to increase the Decay time in the flute settings a little bit, I have it on 280 on Flute 1 and 2, to me that sounds more convincing for the shorts.
One thing that I had to do was go back and change all my shorts to be even shorter. I remember reading somewhere that professional musicians will adjust their playing to the acoustics of the room, so if the room has a long tail, they need to make their staccatos even tighter. With shorter tails, more relaxed. I think I changed my reverb tail which caused me to go back and redo them (self-sabotage #115).
I don't want to contribute to more self sabotage, but I noticed you have Berlin Studio as well - it sounds reeeally good with BS..... just saying :)
I love Berlin Studio! Ironically, that was my first (and default) reverb choice. I agree 100%, it's a wonderful sound. There's no good reason that I'm not using it. More fate than anything. I started with BS, then started to solve the problem of getting that "vintage" sound. BS with modeled instruments just sounded too clean to my ears. I mistakenly attributed that to the reverb, and switched to another which also offered some actual placement of instruments. Though that sounded better (mostly because I hadn't cracked the nut of placing instruments in the stereo field) with a wider stereo field, but still didn't have that vintage sound. So then I changed to MIR 3D. Only then, did I realize the problem was me. I read through posts in the forum and suddenly understood wby there were so many posts about saturation plugins and "tape sound". When I added some of that, it solved the problem, but by that time, I was not willing to undo all my reverb settings and go back.

But I probably will try it again (once I have re-entered my other life for a bit). Maybe I can use MIR for raw positioning, but then run the sound through BS.

Could you maybe post an audio example of Viola from rehearsal 17 / bar 198 to 238?
It's 3:30 in your version.
I find it hard to decide to go for a more legato or staccatissimo approach here. I think you really nailed the "clarity of each note" vs "sluring fast legato".
You bet. That's my favorite viola part in the whole piece! Like a little bee buzzing around everthing else and it only happens once.

Here's what I have:
View attachment Sorcerer's Apprentice Mockup (mbishop) - Viola RH 17-20.mp4

I wanted the viola to make an entrance there, but then fade away like it's going to leave you alone, except that bee comes back, buzzing around!

You didn't ask about this specifically, but you might notice that the expression lane has a little bumps over the barlines, regardless of crescendo or decrescendo. That turned out to be essential to make the piece skip along. Every instrument in the mockup is (almost) always bouncing over those barlines. I think it was my high school jazz band teacher who told me that even if I was the only instrument playing, the audience should know where the beat is.

Here's the dry version of that same line so you can get a feel for the staccato and release times without the reverb interfering.

View attachment Sorcerer's Apprentice Mockup - Viola (Dry) RH 17-20.mp3

Edit: Replaced the dry recording since there was still a little reverb from the MIRacle insert.
 
Last edited:
Amazing!!! I started it playing and turned back to my dayjob work, and forgot almost immediately that its samples. Fantastic mockup, and perhaps the best I've heard in quite some time. Right up there with the best. Extraordinary what you can get out of modelled instruments these days.
This must have been a lot of work!
I sincerely appreciate you for acknowledging that. When I would get discouraged, I had to keep telling myself that everything is a lot of work when you don't first know what you are doing. And I was sacrificing sleep (since that's when I had time to work on it)

Thank you both! Your comments really made my day!
 
Monumental MIDI effort, my gosh, I can't even imagine the amount of time it took to achieve that level of detail. I pretty much forget it's made with samples; that's how much the music comes through on this.

Makes Acoustic Samples Woodwinds sound wonderful and nudges me (a bit of a hanger-back on their woodwinds) to really consider them. Between you and Leandro, y'all are going to empty my wallet once again.
 
One really hard challenge for me, was what to do in those silent moments because when there was no sound, there really was no sound. It was dead. No air, no nothing. So I actually gathered some samples of dead space from an orchestral recording and faded them in during those moments. I'm not sure how successful it was, but at least it didn't have that "wait, did playback stop?" deadness.
What you're talking about is referred to as "Digital black". On tape, there was at least some kind of noise or hiss so nothing was ever truly silent. In digital, it's like a black hole. A void. Complete vacuum. What you're looking for to stick in there is called "Room tone". When recording on locations, audio recordists will even tell the actors to be quiet for a few seconds so they can record the room tone in case they need it for later. Every foley and post production place worth their salt has an entire library of different room tones.

Great job, by the way. It's extremely tedious to do this kind of stuff for a few measures or a movement, much less an entire piece.
 
Top Bottom