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Mixing my film 5.1, what to send to LFE?

M

mrd777

Active Member
Hi everyone,

I'm mixing my own personal film project to 5.1, and trying to create an LFE track.

I already have really low sounds and bass drops in some of my music and sounds. In this case, should I separate those specific parts out via EQ and move them into the LFE, (the frequencies below 80hz)?

OR, should I not touch that stuff, and generate even lower frequencies (say, 30hz) - basically just "add" bass to parts of the film where some extra power will shock the audience?

Thanks!
Dave
Click to read more...
 
Little of both imo. The idea is to never have critical storytelling content only in the LFE, since depending on the screening situation it might not playback/be too low/deleted when folded down to stereo, etc. Don't separate out but accentuate what's already there.

The LFE track is nicknamed the "boom" track for a reason haha. I like to think of it like the rumble function in video game controllers- fun to use, but you're not going to make it rumble all the time and if the controller doesn't have that function, nothing will be missing from the rest of the gameplay.
 
mrd777 said:
Hi everyone,

I'm mixing my own personal film project to 5.1, and trying to create an LFE track.

I already have really low sounds and bass drops in some of my music and sounds. In this case, should I separate those specific parts out via EQ and move them into the LFE, (the frequencies below 80hz)?

OR, should I not touch that stuff, and generate even lower frequencies (say, 30hz) - basically just "add" bass to parts of the film where some extra power will shock the audience?

Thanks!
Dave
Click to expand...
According to Christian Henson you should send NOTHING to LFE.

 
It's important to understand that an LFE is _not_ meant to be used for "bass management". The LFE (Low Frequency Effect) shouldn't be fed with stuff that's actually meant to be full-range audio in the main speakers, but with dedicated signals that don't correlate with them.

Talking about score mixing, it's good practice to keep the LFE either empty altogether, or to feed it with elements that are "optional", in a sense that the film mixers can mute it without doing harm to the actual musical content of the mix.
 
Hi guys,

I think there is a slight confusion. I am not mixing music.

I'm mixing an entire film. So that means I'm generating low sub frequencies based on the entire soundtrack (Film, sound effects, etc).

SO far I've just done it on important moments, to highlight and make more powerful. I think this is the right approach. Open to more ideas :)

Thanks!
Dave
 
mrd777 said:
Hi guys,

I think there is a slight confusion. I am not mixing music.

I'm mixing an entire film. So that means I'm generating low sub frequencies based on the entire soundtrack (Film, sound effects, etc).

SO far I've just done it on important moments, to highlight and make more powerful. I think this is the right approach. Open to more ideas :)

Thanks!
Dave
Click to expand...
Then just ditch the sentence I wrote about "keeping the LFE empty" as an option. The rest is also valid for a the mix of a complete movie.
 
mrd777 said:
Hi everyone,

I'm mixing my own personal film project to 5.1, and trying to create an LFE track.

I already have really low sounds and bass drops in some of my music and sounds. In this case, should I separate those specific parts out via EQ and move them into the LFE, (the frequencies below 80hz)?

OR, should I not touch that stuff, and generate even lower frequencies (say, 30hz) - basically just "add" bass to parts of the film where some extra power will shock the audience?

Thanks!
Dave
Click to expand...
Usually, fim composers do 4.0: they don't touch the center, reserved for dialogue, nor the LFE, reserved for special effects and mixer's decisions.
 
I believe many mixers won't send tonal things like synth bass to the LFE, because the sound of the sub or room might make some notes louder than others. Something like a low drum boom might be OK, but as some others have said the LFE (and the center channel) are often reserved for FX.
 
mrd777 said:
Hi guys,

I think there is a slight confusion. I am not mixing music.

I'm mixing an entire film. So that means I'm generating low sub frequencies based on the entire soundtrack (Film, sound effects, etc).

SO far I've just done it on important moments, to highlight and make more powerful. I think this is the right approach. Open to more ideas :)

Thanks!
Dave
Click to expand...
If it's an effect, and it has a lot of low frequency energy, send it to LFE. Think explosions, the "Easter Island" preset from Albion One, or James Earl Jones' voice.
 
Isn't the question more how low to roll off what you feed to the other speakers?

I've never done a film mix, but if I were on an island with no one to ask, I'd just send everything below 80Hz - the rumble range - to the sub and make the crossover very gradual.

With obvious exceptions, most speakers in someone's living room or project studio aren't going to have anything much useful below about 60Hz, if that.

In other words, I don't think of my subwoofer as a separate channel, in fact I don't think about it at all - it''s just an extension of my speakers.
 
For music nothing in the lfe.

For sound effects only big hits. Booms/wooshes transition that have rumble. Crashes or punches if u want some impact

If you don’t have those then nothing in the lfe is fine.

You woudnt believe how many big budget films don’t hAve anything on the lfe or just in a very few places.

It’s not like you have to add something. It can be empty.
 
For sound FX in a film mix, the story should motivate the use of sub eg a quiet dialogue driven film may not need any LFE at all... And the moments that do, should be designed for it during sound editing/design.

On a film dub stage they always had dbx120 subharmonic synth for generating very low freq from existing/prepared material for LFE... The LowEnder plugin is a good emulation of that process.

reFuse Software: Lowender

reFuse Software: Tools for music and audio creation, including the Lowender and Bucketverb plugins.
www.refusesoftware.com

Sub/LFE is often used to provide scale - explosions & weapons are an obvious use, but eg accentuating creature vocals or bodyfalls or impacts or slow motion with subharmonic processing can add scale and gravity.

Is your sub lined up? How large is your mix room? Keep in mind the fundamental freq of 30Hz sub bass has a wavelength of 30 feet, which is why many dub stages are the size of cinemas.
 
timprebble said:
For sound FX in a film mix, the story should motivate the use of sub eg a quiet dialogue driven film may not need any LFE at all... And the moments that do, should be designed for it during sound editing/design.

On a film dub stage they always had dbx120 subharmonic synth for generating very low freq from existing/prepared material for LFE... The LowEnder plugin is a good emulation of that process.

reFuse Software: Lowender

reFuse Software: Tools for music and audio creation, including the Lowender and Bucketverb plugins.
www.refusesoftware.com

Sub/LFE is often used to provide scale - explosions & weapons are an obvious use, but eg accentuating creature vocals or bodyfalls or impacts or slow motion with subharmonic processing can add scale and gravity.

Is your sub lined up? How large is your mix room? Keep in mind the fundamental freq of 30Hz sub bass has a wavelength of 30 feet, which is why many dub stages are the size of cinemas.
Click to expand...
Hey Tim,
Thanks for helping me again> you helped my in a previous thread.

I was using Lowedner per your prev suggestion. Great plugin!

Also, no I don't have a 30ft room, but this mix will be taken into a theater for listening to by someone else. I am only generating LFE and mixing the best as I can in my own room. The rest is up to them and they know that.
 
synthetic said:
I believe many mixers won't send tonal things like synth bass to the LFE, because the sound of the sub or room might make some notes louder than others. Something like a low drum boom might be OK, but as some others have said the LFE (and the center channel) are often reserved for FX.
Click to expand...
Great point! I can totally see how messing with tonal bass instruments can be negative if not done properly. Eg, if you don't generate a sine sub an octave below, you will probably have some serious tonality issues.

I think I will keep that in mind and probably try to stay away from generating lfe for tonal bass parts.
 
mrd777 said:
Hi everyone,

I'm mixing my own personal film project to 5.1, and trying to create an LFE track.

I already have really low sounds and bass drops in some of my music and sounds. In this case, should I separate those specific parts out via EQ and move them into the LFE, (the frequencies below 80hz)?

OR, should I not touch that stuff, and generate even lower frequencies (say, 30hz) - basically just "add" bass to parts of the film where some extra power will shock the audience?

Thanks!
Dave
Click to expand...
According to Alan Meyerson, the LFE is rarely used unless there is a very important part of the story in which you wish to use the LFE to make an impact. If the LFE is used all the time, not only is it draining to the audience but no special moments stand out when you need them to.
 
GNP said:
According to Alan Meyerson, the LFE is rarely used unless there is a very important part of the story in which you wish to use the LFE to make an impact. If the LFE is used all the time, not only is it draining to the audience but no special moments stand out when you need them to.
Click to expand...
Exactly, even because the LFE Channel is canceled during downmix.
 
Nick Batzdorf said:
Isn't the question more how low to roll off what you feed to the other speakers?

I've never done a film mix, but if I were on an island with no one to ask, I'd just send everything below 80Hz - the rumble range - to the sub and make the crossover very gradual.

With obvious exceptions, most speakers in someone's living room or project studio aren't going to have anything much useful below about 60Hz, if that.

In other words, I don't think of my subwoofer as a separate channel, in fact I don't think about it at all - it''s just an extension of my speakers.
Click to expand...
If you do ever find yourself on that island, this is the wrong way to approach the sub!

Treat the main channels (or at least the LCR) as full range. As others are saying, treat the LFE as 'effects' only, and use carefully. Consumer systems that have a sub and smaller main speakers will do their own bass management to put bass into the subwoofer, and you absolutely do not want what you're doing at the mix to overlap with that.

If one were to crossover the extreme low end of anything into the sub, I'd recommend using the steepest filter available. A better idea, however, is try and decorrelate anything sent to the sub by using a subharmonic generator - this way if all these signals get smushed back together later down the line by a bass management system or a downmix there's less chance of unpleasant reinforcements or cancellations.
 
I sometimes provide separate stems for the LFE.

In most cases they contain bass elements played by (very low) sine waves.
To avoid the sub jumping around between playing loud and almost not playing I keep these
additional bass parts in a very narrow range (i.e. nothing like "octave jumps" etc) and in the rhyhtmical
sense reduced to only the most necessary accents (here again: nothing to erratic, usually key points of a pulse).
In my experience such moments can have a great impact; similar to listening to a church organ using its lowest pedal registers. But great impacts rely on being used not too often.
 
Scoremixer said:
If you do ever find yourself on that island, this is the wrong way to approach the sub!

Treat the main channels (or at least the LCR) as full range. As others are saying, treat the LFE as 'effects' only, and use carefully. Consumer systems that have a sub and smaller main speakers will do their own bass management to put bass into the subwoofer, and you absolutely do not want what you're doing at the mix to overlap with that.

If one were to crossover the extreme low end of anything into the sub, I'd recommend using the steepest filter available. A better idea, however, is try and decorrelate anything sent to the sub by using a subharmonic generator - this way if all these signals get smushed back together later down the line by a bass management system or a downmix there's less chance of unpleasant reinforcements or cancellations.
Click to expand...
Not arguing, asking Plato-style:

But surely if you roll off everything below 65Hz in your main speakers (where it's likely to get rolled off acoustically in any case), anything going to the sub isn't going to overlap in any objectionable way?
 
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