Mastering decisions...

[Buffalo Bill]

Hi guys!!
I know how important it is to check your music on multiple devices. But the problem is that it won't sound the same for everyone.

What criteria do you use to adjust it?

I have the Presonus Eris E5 XT active monitors which sound great, but I mostly work with headphones. I don't have the room acoustically prepared, and I can't have it. And most of the time I do it at night, so I have to use headphones.

I have the Beyerdynamics DT880 Pro for production (with Sonarworks Reference that Im just trying). I also have some Superlux 668B, which I used before.
On my mobile phone, I have been listening to music for pleasure with JBL earbuds for a long time. I like them a lot since they have good bass and for my style of music, works awesome.
I also always carry the original white Samsung in-ear with cable, in case I run out of battery in the JBL.
Besides, I have the Vieta Way2 headphones that my wife uses sometimes, and a Vieta Pro bluetooth speaker, one of those cylinder-shaped ones that is many years old...

Now I think I have my first song (niceeeee!!! ) quite well balanced and with really good sound on my DT880 Pro. And it also sounds very good on the Superlux.
On the JBL, it sounds with a lot of bass and some instruments like the rattles (a type of shaker) are lost a little.
In the Samsung, the bass is lost a lot and the mids rise a lot. They have a slightly more squeaky sound.
In the Vieta headphones, the sound in general is quite dull, but I have barely used them, so I have no reference to other music.

What am I supposed to do? Modify the sound guided by the BEST headphones? Or make it sound as good as possible on the ones I know best and use the most, even though it may not be "the best" sound?

I have several professionally mastered commercial tracks of the same genre (more or less), that I have listened to millions of times for pleasure before starting to produce.
And the truth is that all these songs behave the same on different devices, but "in general" they sound more balanced.

How do you decide?
Many thansk!!

Click to read more...

 

[The Gost]

Hi guys!!
I know how important it is to check your music on multiple devices. But the problem is that it won't sound the same for everyone.

What criteria do you use to adjust it?

I have the Presonus Eris E5 XT active monitors which sound great, but I mostly work with headphones. I don't have the room acoustically prepared, and I can't have it. And most of the time I do it at night, so I have to use headphones.

I have the Beyerdynamics DT880 Pro for production (with Sonarworks Reference that Im just trying). I also have some Superlux 668B, which I used before.
On my mobile phone, I have been listening to music for pleasure with JBL earbuds for a long time. I like them a lot since they have good bass and for my style of music, works awesome.
I also always carry the original white Samsung in-ear with cable, in case I run out of battery in the JBL.
Besides, I have the Vieta Way2 headphones that my wife uses sometimes, and a Vieta Pro bluetooth speaker, one of those cylinder-shaped ones that is many years old...

Now I think I have my first song (niceeeee!!! ) quite well balanced and with really good sound on my DT880 Pro. And it also sounds very good on the Superlux.
On the JBL, it sounds with a lot of bass and some instruments like the rattles (a type of shaker) are lost a little.
In the Samsung, the bass is lost a lot and the mids rise a lot. They have a slightly more squeaky sound.
In the Vieta headphones, the sound in general is quite dull, but I have barely used them, so I have no reference to other music.

What am I supposed to do? Modify the sound guided by the BEST headphones? Or make it sound as good as possible on the ones I know best and use the most, even though it may not be "the best" sound?

I have several professionally mastered commercial tracks of the same genre (more or less), that I have listened to millions of times for pleasure before starting to produce.
And the truth is that all these songs behave the same on different devices, but "in general" they sound more balanced.

How do you decide?
Many thansk!!

We make decisions and live with them... I haven't found any other answer to your question. However, I think others will find some.

 

[Buffalo Bill]

We make decisions and live with them... I haven't found any other answer to your question. However, I think others will find some.

Thanks, I see...
But how do you do it in practice?
Because I imagine we all go through the same thing, right?

When someone asks about mixing techniques or processes, I haven't seen answers like "let your heart guide you and flow..."

I'm simply looking for advice from experienced people so I can learn.

 

[Keith Cocker]

I think The Gost is absolutely right. However you master it will sound good on some mechanisms and not so good on other. Just decide what your main market is and work to that. Simples!!!

 

[The Gost]

Thanks, I see...
But how do you do it in practice?
Because I imagine we all go through the same thing, right?

When someone asks about mixing techniques or processes, I haven't seen answers like "let your heart guide you and flow..."

I'm simply looking for advice from experienced people so I can learn.

I haven't seen answers like "let your heart guide you and flow..."
Yes I imagine... I think that the first thing to do is to watch certain videos on Youtube of people where the result is obvious, there are some, after some advice even basic changes certain things, you still have to accept ( as far as I'm concerned) that even after years, I don't mix like Alan Meyerson.....mixing is one thing, mastering too but the first thing for me is orchestration and balance. For my next project, unless I can take Alan Meyerson, I will have it mastered by a person in that's the only profession... I hope that other people here will have other answers that may be more precise for you.
Best.

 

[Baronvonheadless]

I always make sure my mixes and masters sound as flat as possible in my flattest headphones/monitors and then listen on Bose devices where a lot of bass and hype is added and make sure they aren’t too bassy there but change the way they should change.

Just get them as close to your references in speakers u know and love and don’t over hype or overmaster or overcompensate.

Trust your ears (but that’s the hard part. Some ppl just have better ears for it).

 

[Buffalo Bill]

I always make sure my mixes and masters sound as flat as possible in my flattest headphones/monitors and then listen on Bose devices where a lot of bass and hype is added and make sure they aren’t too bassy there but change the way they should change.

Just get them as close to your references in speakers u know and love and don’t over hype or overmaster or overcompensate.

Trust your ears (but that’s the hard part. Some ppl just have better ears for it).

Many thanks! Really appreciate your suggestion!

 

[Baronvonheadless]

Many thanks! Really appreciate your suggestion!

No problem! Always happy to help, and even better when you want a fresh set of ears or in doubt, hire me

 

[PeterN]

Hi guys!!
I know how important it is to check your music on multiple devices. But the problem is that it won't sound the same for everyone.

What criteria do you use to adjust it?

I have the Presonus Eris E5 XT active monitors which sound great, but I mostly work with headphones. I don't have the room acoustically prepared, and I can't have it. And most of the time I do it at night, so I have to use headphones.

I have the Beyerdynamics DT880 Pro for production (with Sonarworks Reference that Im just trying). I also have some Superlux 668B, which I used before.
On my mobile phone, I have been listening to music for pleasure with JBL earbuds for a long time. I like them a lot since they have good bass and for my style of music, works awesome.
I also always carry the original white Samsung in-ear with cable, in case I run out of battery in the JBL.
Besides, I have the Vieta Way2 headphones that my wife uses sometimes, and a Vieta Pro bluetooth speaker, one of those cylinder-shaped ones that is many years old...

Now I think I have my first song (niceeeee!!! ) quite well balanced and with really good sound on my DT880 Pro. And it also sounds very good on the Superlux.
On the JBL, it sounds with a lot of bass and some instruments like the rattles (a type of shaker) are lost a little.
In the Samsung, the bass is lost a lot and the mids rise a lot. They have a slightly more squeaky sound.
In the Vieta headphones, the sound in general is quite dull, but I have barely used them, so I have no reference to other music.

What am I supposed to do? Modify the sound guided by the BEST headphones? Or make it sound as good as possible on the ones I know best and use the most, even though it may not be "the best" sound?

I have several professionally mastered commercial tracks of the same genre (more or less), that I have listened to millions of times for pleasure before starting to produce.
And the truth is that all these songs behave the same on different devices, but "in general" they sound more balanced.

How do you decide?
Many thansk!!

Maybe add (the available) AI in your arsenal. Which is the stuff that analyses the track, could be Ozone, or TGP etc. It probably hasn't reached its potential yet, but you get a basic idea where its 'too much' or 'too little'.

This is quite obvious choice now. (I would guess at least)

 

[Aymara]

Another vote for Ozone ... the results of the automatic analysis aren't always reliable, but they give good hints, where to look for improvement potential, especially the dynamic EQ is helpful.

Ozone Standard should be good enough, but wait for a summer discount. Native Instruments will have the Summer of Sound with 50% discount soon and it could be that Ozone will also be on discount, now that iZotope belongs to NI.

Other than that you are on the right track ... you found out, that the bass is too heavy and that the shaker is too weak

Also check your results in the car and on several HiFi systems, if possible. Checking on a phone is also important ... do you still hear the bass and the bass drum?

That's my way to check if the master is finished. I try to find an ideal compromise, that sounds good on all devices. But I produce Pop & Rock, not movie or trailer music, for which the car check for example might be less important, but can also give hints.

 

[Buffalo Bill]

@PeterN @Aymara Many thanks!!
I had read about the AI master feature of Ozone and sounds interesting. Not maybe for let the fully control with blind eyes, but to see some red flags to pay attention and learn about. I will get a try!

Thanks again!

 

[proggermusic]

So, I'm curious at this point how many of our average VIC folks have worked with proper mastering engineers on independent releases. Serious mastering is serious work that involves highly trained ears, proper equipment, and a properly tuned space in which to do the work. The nature of mastering has changed in the past few decades (as everything else has) but it's still a very important step in getting a commercial-release-ready recording and well worth the expense, which is relatively modest in the scheme of things.

When we "master" things ourselves, we're doing a very "make the best of what we have" job of it. And that's ok, I certainly do it myself when the budget isn't there for a proper mastering engineer, and in that case it's just as the OP indicates: do your best, listen as objectively as you can on as many various sources as you can, know that it won't ever be ideal, and just roll with it until you can live with it. Really nothing wrong with that.

But a proper seasoned mastering engineer, with a proper facility and the right equipment, will definitely be able to perceive things I can't (and I have pretty respectable ears). Besides, it's an objective set of ears that can catch things that familiarity will force us all to miss in our own work. A persistent tenacious frequency that builds up too much, or a dynamic inconsistency that doesn't work, who knows.

It's well worth taking the time to talk to these folks, learn what you can from them, and, whenever possible... Employ them!

 

[Aymara]

Serious mastering is serious work that involves highly trained ears, ...

And because my old ears are no longer good enough for the upper high end, I let my own masters being checked by a Pro, which is cheaper, than letting the whole master being done by him.

Worth a try for others too ... do your own master and let it be checked. It might be good enough, that the Mastering engineer has less work to do, which reduces costs.

PS: Possible downside ... some Mastering pros might say: "I do the whole master or nothing." But even then ... if your mix is good, he has not a lot to do.

 

[ScarletJerry]

If you are using the latest version of Logic, don’t forget that you have a built-in AI mastering tool.

 

[Buffalo Bill]

If you are using the latest version of Logic, don’t forget that you have a built-in AI mastering tool.

Manay thanks, but Cubase here...

 

[Aymara]

Manay thanks, but Cubase here...

Don't worry, Ozone is much more powerful than Logic's MA. Only downside is, that Ozone only analyses the loudest part of the song. But you can analyze any other part too and compare the results.

Check Youtube for tutorials.

 

[Beat Kaufmann]

Hello Buffalo Bill

The thing about mastering. As it stands, mastering doesn't necessarily mean as loud as possible, but in such a way that your music sounds passable to good on as many playback systems as possible (hi-fi, car, cell phone, headphones, etc.).

If this is the case and you don't want to blindly leave the whole sound thing to a tool, you need a monitoring option that sounds neutral enough for you to make real and right decisions.
In other words you need a system, that if your monitoring system tells you that the bass sounds bloated, it really is. Obviously, this is not possible via your loudspeakers - if only because of the lack of room treatment. So that obviously only leaves the headphones.
Then you simply need to know which frequencies your headphones favor or rather suppress. You talk about "good sounding headphones". I wouldn't want to deny this to the DT880, for example. Nevertheless, I quickly looked at the frequency curves of the DT880 and those of the Superlux 668B...

The Superlux has a fairly linear curve from about 30Hz to 1kHz, after which it drops steadily and then has a sudden and huge boost (+12dB) at about 5.5kHz. Assuming you are now correcting your music with these headphones, your music will tend to sound dull and dark on other systems because you are actually correcting the frequency response of the Superlux headphones.

The DT880 tends to have a downward tendency in the (<150Hz) bass. It probably sounds pleasantly warm because it has a flat hump around 300Hz. This gradually weakens down to 2kHz. Then the frequency response rises slowly (+9dB) to two peaks - one at 6kHz and the other at 9kHz. The frequency response then drops again. So the warm sound is probably accompanied by so-called silky highs. The totally typical and pleasant hi-fi sound (good sound).

Of course, you can't make any real decisions with those tools. Especially with the DT880, everything will probably sound nice and pleasant. In this case, the only thing that will probably help is a tool that smoothes out the beautifying curve, such as SoundID from Sonarworks for example. This is definitely a solution for headphones. For loudspeakers, such a system is only recommended if many things are already right in the "hardware world". Good, linear speakers, room treatment is made...
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One last thing. Unfortunately, stereo and spatial issues cannot be judged as well with headphones as with loudspeakers. Our hearing is designed to judge such spatial effects via time differences hitting our ears and the way frequencies bend around our head. Unfortunately, with headphones you have two fairly isolated sounds (L/R channels) that hit the ear canals vertically and not even from the front.
Example: If a lot of a stereo mix is mainly on the left and right, this can result in a nice stereo effect in headphones. Over loudspeakers, however, the music sticks to the left and right speakers, while the stereo center is completely "empty". My experience is that if a mix is right over loudspeakers, then it is also right over headphones. The reverse is not true.
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Hopefully my text will help you to make further decisions.

 

[Buffalo Bill]

@Beat Kaufmann Many thanks for your detailed reply!
I was really surprised how plain sounds the Superlux compared with de DT880, taking in mind the difference of price. The DT880 had better sound with better image, and much more comfortable, of course. I really love it. I hear now some sounds (or in other way) that havent feel before in the music that I commonly listen. But the Superlux are a really nice headphones...

Never tough before too much about frequency curves in headphones thinking that you always can equalize in your device. But always was in the listener side, not in the production. But now I see that is some like photographic lenses (a world that I have much more experience) You need to know the specs to know how the lens (or the headphones) will perform for your needs.

I had experimented that you say about the spatial and stereo and of course, Im totally agree. At the first days of mixing my first theme, I tended to separate too much some instrumenst working with the DT880 to get a nice spatial scene. That works great and sounds awesome... in the DT880!
But when listen in other more common headphones and other devices, I saw that you said about the lack of presence in the middle, so needed to correct. Now I understand why.

Again... many thanks!

 

[AudioLoco]

One last thing. Unfortunately, stereo and spatial issues cannot be judged as well with headphones as with loudspeakers. ..... if a mix is right over loudspeakers, then it is also right over headphones. The reverse is not true.
-----------------------------------

I personally don't enjoy mixing in headphones and find correct mix translation difficult, but not everyone agrees

Andrew Scheps Mixes w/Headphones (Almost Exclusively)

While he loves his monitors, he seems to have little use for them these days, and has mixed entire albums on his Sony MDR-7506s with little to no downside.

vi-control.net

 

[Aymara]

Regarding Spatial Audio … it’s not only the frequency response, that matters. Don‘t forget, that the soundstage of the headphone plays a major role here. The DT880 are open back headphones with a pretty huge soundstage. In-Ears in comparison have a very small soundstage for example. But also closed back over-ears often have a smaller soundstage.