Logic Pro Score-to-Picture: Do you export cues that don't start on an exact frame?

[FastMusic]

Hi all, I am doing a score-to-picture with individual Logic projects per cue.

I've set the 1 1 1 1 position to match the exact frame I need for each cue. However, I also include about 4 bars of pre-roll in my exports to give the client some headroom. The issue I'm facing is that when I add this pre-roll, the starting timecode of the file no longer aligns with an exact frame. Even if I include timecode in the filename, aligning it to that timecode puts my 1 1 1 1 position out of sync by several sub-frames.

I'm wondering if anyone has encountered a similar problem and found a better solution? I'm curious to hear how others are working around this issue.

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[dgburns]

I start my cues in Logic at bar 9. That way I have some preroll in case I need to add something earlier at a later stage without too much fuss. If I know ahead of time, I might even start the cue later, like bar 17 or higher if need be, but it’s rare. I set my starting tempo at bar 1 for what I want to write at bar 9, but I have sometimes changed my mind and placed a tempo change at bar 9, sometimes in revisions. The only drawback to this is the click counts in at the pre bar 9 tempo, but this is usually no big deal.

If you are preparing stuff for live players, the one drawback is that they will see 8 bars of nothing off the top, so some ppl will start at bar 3 or 4 to avoid too much dead space on the sheet music. I don’t have to worry too much about that.

When I set my timecode start at bar 9, I place my cursor at bar 9, and manipulate the start time for bar 1 in the Logic sync window, so that I get the timecode start I want for bar 9 —- the timecode display inthe main transport window will update as you fiddle with the timecode for bar 1. I run video on a PT machine, so the video is not in the Logic session. I place a marker in PT where the cue starts, and just get bar 9 in Logic to be the same time code number. It’s actually very simple and elegant if you do it once, it’s pretty easy.

- I never start a cue at bar 1, ever.
- I know there are other ways to skin the cat, but this works for me.

 

[wing]

I've only scored one feature (so far!) and the way we did it was the editor provided me 5-10 seconds of pre-roll into the cue, usually several shots before, which I preferred because it also gave me a sense of context of how the music will begin and where we're coming from before that, as well as some flexibility to adjust the exact timing where it starts. I also prefer a 2pop from the editor and keep that in the beginning so my export includes the 2pop for them to easily line back up on their end.

That said I did it pretty similar to David above, I started all my cues at bar 10, and would use the Logic video settings to ensure the timecode lines up at that bar. Because timing can change I also kept a google sheet of cue numbers to starting timecode. I liked having this freedom in case things change I have some room to adjust pre-roll, like if the director came back asking the cue to start a few beats before the scene or wants to add some kind of swell into the cue, I have several seconds where I can do that without having to move everything down.

 

[charlieclouser]

I also always start the music at bar 9, and even if the downbeat of bar 9 is at an uneven frame number - like 02.11.22.13 - I make the start point of all bounces and stem prints to the ProTools layback rig be an even number, at the previous whole-second interval.

So in my Logic Project I'd place a marker at 02.11.22.00, and name it with the cue name (like SAWX-2m12-Hacienda), place an end-point marker a little bit past the end of the ring-out at the end, and then do my bounces with that Cycle Range selected. Comes out perfect every time.

Same for my ProTools layback session on the print rig.

This method does a couple of things:

- There is always a little bit (less than one second) of dead air at the top of the cue before the first bit of audio or MIDI. Sometimes if you do your bounces right from bar 1, and you have some hard sounds exactly on bar 1, you might get clicks or other weirdness as everything gets going. That little bit of dead air lets all the instruments and plugins "wake up" and get ready to make sound. Of course when printing to the ProTools rig in real-time, I set about a 5 second pre-roll in ProTools so that it's playing before the start point, and then it punches into record at the desired point, and the Logic rig (which is slaved to timecode coming from ProTools) has already been playing for a few seconds during the pre-roll so everyone is awake on that side. All good, every time.

- When all of the cue bounces and stems start at whole-second intervals, it's a little quicker for the music editor to stick them at the correct spot - and, if they need to nudge things for any reason, they can more easily compare the nudged start point to the original, with no need for tricky math, trying to add and subtract frames, etc.

- Having less than one second of dead air isn't really a big problem - it's not like anybody will need to sit through eight bars of silence waiting to hear something. Although when I'm preparing mixes for CD or streaming releases, I do trim that dead air down to about 5-10 milliseconds, usually by looking at the waveforms, and I do apply a 2ms fade-in during that gap.

 

[FastMusic]

Thanks all; My question has more to do with how you handle subframes. Remember, Avid does not have subframes, Pro Tools has 100 subframes, and Logic has 80 subframes.

I am trying to find a good method to both bounce and have my downbeat cue starts at subframes .00 - otherwise, the cue will slip in time when delivered. Even if your cue downbeat is on an exact frame, without setting the bounce start to a subframe, your music will then begin in the middle of a frame.

What is the protocol for working around this?

 

[dgburns]

Well, I think Charlie answered this for you. If you bounce on the exact frame, and not a sub frame position in either Logic or Cubase, you would import into Avid at the right frame, because it is numerically the same value. A second is a second, is a second of time, no matter what the frame rate is.

Now, 80 sub frames @ 24 fps = 40 msec per time interval between each sub frame approx. So the worst you could be off is no more than 40 msec in either direction when importing to Avid. I doubt that would make a material difference unless your cue has phase info dependant on another cue you also imported into Avid. Most of the time, for me, when cues overlap, it’s not an issue.

So, set your cue timecode start at bar 9 to whatever you want, including sub frame, but bounce out earlier at a round timecode number so there are no subframes, they are at 00.

BTW, I always run PT in grid mode, set to one frame interval, so when I park my playhead somewhere on the timeline, I am always at a whole non sub frame timecode, I’m not in slip mode, where you could be somewhere inside of a frame of video. I fell into this habit years ago, working with film people, since it made no sense to work in slip mode and placing sound at the exact frame start meant it would exactly line up with the frame of film. Or atleast, that was the idea.

 

[dogtownmusic]

In 20 years I haven’t had anyone request subframe accuracy so I don’t think you have anything to worry about.