kgdrum
“Making a mess & calling it Art is where it’s at!”
Most users report DP as being problematic in a Windows environment,for most people DP works much better using the Mac OS.
Is it time for me to get a new computer?
- Thread starter musicalweather
- Start date
OP
OP
musicalweather
Senior Member
I've heard enough of how problematic DP is on Windows that I want to stay away from it. The astronomical cost of Macs does give one pause, though. But I think I've been with DP/Macs too long (20+ years) to be inclined to switch.
aldous
Senior Member
The number of open apps isn't really relevant, so just to check, you mean no other processes are using CPU etc in Activity Monitor? So the MDS thing isn't happening on most of the occasions that kernel_task is spiking?
If you've already checked out the temperature, that the fan's working properly, etc, with powermetrics or similar(?) then that leaves kernel_task's other functions. Have you got an external monitor by any chance? If you see kernel_task going nuts again, try unplugging it (as a diagnostic; not a fix), similarly any other external devices.
If it keeps indexing and doesn't stop, despite being given plenty of time to finish (e.g. after system updates) and without lots of constantly-changing files (e.g. because you're a software developer), then it may be suck on a dodgy index.
You can force it to rebuild the index by finding the settings for "Spotlight", "Privacy", adding "Macintosh HD" to the list of excluded locations, restarting, then removing it again. I suggest doing this at the end of the day because it'll then (correctly!) start feverishly indexing everything, but it should successfully conclude.
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musicalweather
Senior Member
This is really helpful - thank you! I made some observations after reading your post, and this is what I found:
I checked into DiskDrill which monitors the temp of the Macintosh HD, and it said its health rating was normal. Temps were in the low 90s.
Working on Pigments in standalone, my machine once again really slowed to a grind. Kernel_task was very high. So I disconnected the MBP from the external displays and kernel_task went way down. I continued to work on Pigments solely on the MBP for quite a while, with no spikes in the kernel_task at all.
At this point I should clarify, I disconnected my MBP from a powered hub, to which I have several devices connected: two monitors, two midi controllers and my audio interface. The hub is connected to my MBP with a Thunderbolt cable. I guess it's that cable/jack that is overheating my CPU…? The internet seems to have conflicting conclusions about this. I’m happy to have found the culprit, but now I’m wondering if I can find a way to work with the hub continuously connected without my CPU going crazy. I really need those external displays as well as the audio interface. If you have any suggestions around this, I’m all ears!
The kernel_task does seem to accelerate upwards when I open certain apps. For example, as I worked on Pigments last night, it very gradually used more CPU, starting at about 30%. The kernel_task percentage was quite low - almost negligable. Then I opened up Safari and the kernel_task CPU indicator shot up to somewhere around 500% and the machine really slowed down. After I quit out of Safari, the kernel_task percentage came down, though it took a while. I’m guessing there’s a memory issue going on as well; I didn’t look at the memory stats. Just anecdotally, it seems like my machine cannot handle two or more heavy apps at once, like say Digital Performer + VE Pro + Safari. It’s just too much. But perhaps this all more related to the hub/external displays.
I’ll have to do some further observing to see when the mds is spiking. But I think I will try the technique you suggested.
Thanks again for your suggestions!
Robert_G
The End is Near
I had some more thoughts, but don't take this as harsh criticism, because I'm trying to figure out why you do what you do. Your whole setup is a mess IMHO.
1. The reason for using a laptop of any kind...is for mobility.....no other reason. Laptops are a nightmare when it comes to upgrading...additional HDs....RAM...you name it. With the 2 slaves that you have on PC towers....there is no reason for a laptop as your main computer. You are NOT mobile having 2 PC slaves.
2. I compose and edit with dual screens...high quality....27" and 24". I sometimes consider a 3rd screen. I cannot imagine trying to compose on a single 15 inch screen. I would quit yesterday.
3. You sound like you're on a budget, but you have 2 slaves for a total of 3 computers. That isn't cheap. Wouldn't it be easier to run the whole thing on one powerful computer with lots of RAM? Slaves are so 1990s. Nobody needs slaves in 2024. Tower PC computers are more than powerful enough to do any level of composing out there without the bulkiness of slaves.....unless you are doing 4K video along with the composing (a different conversation)
4. The idea of running a Macbook and PCs (slaves) on the same setup with the added task of VEPro just asks for headaches (conflicts). Going this route would be like a reoccurring nightmare that you don't wake up from.
Anyways....I priced a few really nice builds in the $1800 U.S. range 12 Core Ryzens and 128 RAM with plenty of NVME HD storage.......more than enough for the average composer.
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musicalweather
Senior Member
@Robert_G : thanks for your thoughts.
My setup is not a mess; it has worked quite well for many years.
I have never aspired to have a mobile setup. I’ve got lots of Orchestral Tool libraries, as well as HOOPUS and BBCSO, and those definitely need to be in towers. At the time I bought those heavy libraries, no Mac tower would have been sufficient to run them and my DAW. Getting slave PC’s proved to be the right solution at the time. I previously had my DAW, Digital Performer, on a Mac cheesegrater, a wonderful machine but which eventually became too old. As stated in my earlier posts, I’m not inclined to move over to a PC since DP apparently has a lot of problems on Windows. Back in 2016, the new Mac towers were out of reach financially for me, so I opted for a MacBook Pro. I never expected to upgrade it - just get a new (or refurbished upgrade) when the time came.
I also compose and edit with dual screens - 32” and 27” and can even add a third 22” screen. Never compose on just the laptop, though these days, I can do some sketching on it using Dorico or BBCSO Core.
The slave computers were purchased at different times as my libraries gradually expanded. VE Pro with slave machines is not a nightmare. Cumbersome at times, yes, but it’s part of my every day routine. DP has some great ways of setting things up in a modular way using the Clippings feature.
All this said, I take your point. Building a custom PC can give you a pretty powerful machine at a pretty reasonable price. But could it really handle everything - like a full set of Orchestral Tools instruments with multiple mic positions? And run a DAW loaded with plugins? I’m a bit skeptical. Regardless, the sticking point for me is that I’m really tied to Digital Performer on a Mac. There are just too many problems with it on Windows. Yes, Cubase beckons. I own it, but it would be a very steep climb to get as fast on it as I am on DP. So I’m stuck looking for an affordable Mac solution, which right now means some kind of used MacBook pro or Mac Studio.
My setup is not a mess; it has worked quite well for many years.
I have never aspired to have a mobile setup. I’ve got lots of Orchestral Tool libraries, as well as HOOPUS and BBCSO, and those definitely need to be in towers. At the time I bought those heavy libraries, no Mac tower would have been sufficient to run them and my DAW. Getting slave PC’s proved to be the right solution at the time. I previously had my DAW, Digital Performer, on a Mac cheesegrater, a wonderful machine but which eventually became too old. As stated in my earlier posts, I’m not inclined to move over to a PC since DP apparently has a lot of problems on Windows. Back in 2016, the new Mac towers were out of reach financially for me, so I opted for a MacBook Pro. I never expected to upgrade it - just get a new (or refurbished upgrade) when the time came.
I also compose and edit with dual screens - 32” and 27” and can even add a third 22” screen. Never compose on just the laptop, though these days, I can do some sketching on it using Dorico or BBCSO Core.
The slave computers were purchased at different times as my libraries gradually expanded. VE Pro with slave machines is not a nightmare. Cumbersome at times, yes, but it’s part of my every day routine. DP has some great ways of setting things up in a modular way using the Clippings feature.
All this said, I take your point. Building a custom PC can give you a pretty powerful machine at a pretty reasonable price. But could it really handle everything - like a full set of Orchestral Tools instruments with multiple mic positions? And run a DAW loaded with plugins? I’m a bit skeptical. Regardless, the sticking point for me is that I’m really tied to Digital Performer on a Mac. There are just too many problems with it on Windows. Yes, Cubase beckons. I own it, but it would be a very steep climb to get as fast on it as I am on DP. So I’m stuck looking for an affordable Mac solution, which right now means some kind of used MacBook pro or Mac Studio.
Thundercat
Senior Member
Well, I just bit the bullet and bought a brand new M3 Max MacBook Pro with 128GB RAM...put it on a 0% interest card with 21 months to pay it off...
Still painful, yes, but not as painful as paying interest on such a machine.
The unit is glorious...
aldous
Senior Member
Glad it helped - definitely sounds like progress! I think it's more likely to be triggered by something plugged into the hub: I asked about the monitors specifically because I suspect your CPU is taking on graphics work (which is why certain apps would make it worse)...
Are you able to re-try the experiment, but leaving the hub, MIDI controllers and interface connected whilst disconnecting the monitors one at a time?
OP
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musicalweather
Senior Member
I will try this and report back!
aldous
Senior Member
Great - was just about to add: if kernel_task calms down when one/both the monitors have been removed, can you then try plugging them into the MBP directly too? That'll rule in/out any contribution from the hub (or, more specifically, the tunnelling magic the mixture of displays and USB will be causing.)
Of course, if it isn't the monitors then by all means do the same procedure for the other devices, i.e. disconnect one at a time; see if the problem disappears; the re-connect directly; see if it reappears, and repeat until you're trying just the empty hub.
Robert_G
The End is Near
Having an all in one computer will remove the cumbersome. Although I don't want to derail your topic into a VEPro discussion, but I only see it as additional software that can cause conflicts. I keep it as simple as possible. VEPro's pros do not outweigh the cons.
Yes, it absolutely can. I'm still running a 2020 machine (3900x 12 core with 128 RAM, but my main drive is PCIe 4.0 NVME drive. My storage is all on NVME and SATA SSD. The options under $2000 in 2024 would blow my machine away. I run the entire Synchron Orchestra (Full libraries)....no track freezing or disabling. I add high RAM choir patches plus all sorts of other stuff including plugins and other mastering stuff. Had my Ram up to 80GB and the processor breezes through it. Also run full mics on various Kontakt libaries as well. The RAM adds up fast. Rarely does the CPU go over 30%...even with live midi playing included.
One machine....keeping it simple.
I started with Cubase as a complete newbie and it only took a few months to understand what was needed to compose, edit, program, and publish music. You have the experience to figure it out in a couple of weeks. I would ditch DP and go to Cubase in a heartbeat. Then you can also ditch the dreaded overpriced MAC ecosystem as well.
gzapper
Active Member
I went from a 2017 intel macbook pro to an M1 w 64Gb, best computer upgrade ever.
The fans never go on, battery lasts forever, the mechanical parts of the laptop are excellent.
Consider a refurbished M1 or M2 if you want to save a bit, but its worth the cash.
I used to run an intel NUC for VEP7 but haven't turned it on since.
The fans never go on, battery lasts forever, the mechanical parts of the laptop are excellent.
Consider a refurbished M1 or M2 if you want to save a bit, but its worth the cash.
I used to run an intel NUC for VEP7 but haven't turned it on since.
Guy Rowland
Senior Member
It's true. But a little uncomfortable on your lap.
If you need it to move = Apple and pay up.
If you don't = PC and save.
Robert_G
The End is Near
That's just it. The OP said that his system has 2 slaves and isn't mobile.
kgdrum
“Making a mess & calling it Art is where it’s at!”
The OP has said repeatedly he wants to stay with DP and wants to be in the Apple/ Mac environment,why can’t you accept that it’s not just a matter of price for @musicalweather ?
He said wants to stay with a Mac and the DAW that he has been using for 20+ years.
You keep pushing a bargain that comes with obstacles(learning curve,new DAW,different OS and the time suck)some users don’t want to deal with all of this,I know I certainly wouldn’t.
Hasn’t he said this clearly enough already for you to understand this?
While your rig might work for you it might not work for others.
Guy Rowland
Senior Member
If DP Windows really is a no go, I'd at least migrate to a Mac Studio rather than max out an MBP if you don't have to be mobile. Reckon the lower specced of the two configs will be a great host computer, and more than 64gb would be way OTT if running with two slaves.
Robert_G
The End is Near
It's never too late to learn new things....and he DID state that he doesn't have unlimited funds...
Oh...I understand....
Lol....this isn't about a bargain. This is the difference of about $5k for a rig that will do the same thing. You would have to be pretty stubborn and set in your ways over changing your DAW for that kind of money. I wasn't saying he is stubborn or set in his ways...but you're getting defensive for whatever reason....I'm thinking your one of those MAC users that hates being reminded how badly you overpay for Apple products.
Again....he has already stated that he has a budget....and that budget is only going to afford him an upgrade (If he goes with MAC) that will only disappoint him in the long run.
I hope that answers your question.
gzapper
Active Member
I remember spec'ing out a pc rig that matched a loaded macbook pro and it came out pretty close.
Sure, you can get a tower cheaper but try it a laptop form.
If you were doing a fair comparison, do a comparison to a mac mini or mac studio.
Then post the specs for a fair comparison.
aldous
Senior Member
So I ended up reading the parallel thread / incipient bunfight, and noticed nobody had answered this:
Sampled instruments only needed large amounts of RAM because of high disk latency: i.e. it takes too long to pull the sample data off disk on-demand, so they have to pre-load the start of every sample to cover the gap. AS's low latency means most of that preload is unnecessary. The high bandwidth means it can maintain that for a lot of instruments.
Of course, if you don't configure your VIs to preload less, they'll keep on using the old amount. Many AS users haven't tuned this setting: I recommend setting preload to "surprisingly low" on AS macs (i.e. set it to minimum and raise until it works; that is, if it doesn't on the first try.)
In general, ignore anyone telling you how much memory you need: they have no way to know. Instead, listen to the instruments and "ensemble" sizes people run on the computer/memory they have, and how much they preload. And remember that PC numbers aren't relevant to AS and vice versa.
In general, including for playing sampled instruments, you need less RAM for on Apple Silicon (AS) compared to a PC/Intel Mac. That's because AS can shift data between SSD<->memory<->CPU very quickly: i.e. "high bandwidth" (how much data it can shift per second) and "low latency" (the elapsed time between request and receipt of some data.
Sampled instruments only needed large amounts of RAM because of high disk latency: i.e. it takes too long to pull the sample data off disk on-demand, so they have to pre-load the start of every sample to cover the gap. AS's low latency means most of that preload is unnecessary. The high bandwidth means it can maintain that for a lot of instruments.
Of course, if you don't configure your VIs to preload less, they'll keep on using the old amount. Many AS users haven't tuned this setting: I recommend setting preload to "surprisingly low" on AS macs (i.e. set it to minimum and raise until it works; that is, if it doesn't on the first try.)
In general, ignore anyone telling you how much memory you need: they have no way to know. Instead, listen to the instruments and "ensemble" sizes people run on the computer/memory they have, and how much they preload. And remember that PC numbers aren't relevant to AS and vice versa.
