Menu
What's new
By:
Filters

Intel Macs - ticking time bomb?

wayne_rowley

wayne_rowley

Active Member
No, they are not going to explode :)grin:), but there is a day coming, and I think coming quickly where they will be frozen in time!

Let me explain as this came to me yesterday.

I'm contemplating my next music computer. I've been using Logic on Macs for several years now. My current machine is a 2018 i5 Mini that I've updated to 32GB of RAM. Now, I love the performance and power efficiency of M-series Macs (I have an M1 Air) but the Apple prices to upgrade RAM and storage are crazy-high (for a non-pro) and you can only get the higher RAM for the high-end processors (Max and Ultra) which pushes the prices up even more. I'm also not entirely happy that they are not upgradable or serviceable - they have become like phones and iPads, just exceedingly more expensive. But I do like Mac OS, I like Logic and don't really want to jump ship.

So, up until yesterday, I've been contemplating a used Mac Pro - perhaps a top-end 2013 or even a 2019 if I can find one for a good price. After all, storage and RAM can be upgraded and on the 2019 I can stuff it with PCI storage! And I know that Apple are moving away from Intel but the machine will last for years - after all many people are running Mac Pros that are over 10 years old and OpenCore allows you to run newer OSs than what is officially supported...

And then it hit me - that's not going to happen!

It's possible right now because Apple still support Intel Macs and therefore release software as Universal Binaries. But once they completely dump support for Intel Macs (and given the 2019 Pro is 5 years old - that could be as soon as this/next year) then they will only build software in AS binaries. It just won't run on Intel Macs, not even with OpenCore. And it's not just OSes - all software will go the same way, even 3rd-party. No new Logic version. No new plug-ins. It will become frozen in time with the last release of Intel compatible software.

Yes it will keep working, but with no new software being produced for Intel Macs, I think their useful lifespan will be considerably shorter than the previous generation.

Any flaws in my logic (no pun intended)?

I'm hoping so because if not then the only real choices out there are to stay with Apple and move to AS - suck up their prices and upgrade ladder. And better buy new or Apple refurbished because it's not upgradable or repairable, and you have no idea how badly the SSD on a used Mac has been hammered...

Or throw in the towel, move to PC, where there's still at least some semblance of upgradability and compatibility, and learn a new DAW.

Frankly, neither option is massively appealing!

Wayne
Click to read more...
 
Why would it come as a surprise that Apple will phase out Intel support? It is the 100% logical and obvious move. Sorry, I just don't understand what your problem/question is. It's noting new that technology has an expiration time. Apple don't support their PPC platform anymore. At some point (pretty soon I reckon) they will want to push their own AS platform and stop supporting Intel.

Of course buying an (old) Intel Mac will be stupid at this point if you want to stay up to date with new software. So the solution is to get a Mac Studio or Mac Pro running AS. Simple as that. Or move to PC. Whatever floats your boat.
 
It's not a surprise, it's just that in my research I've come across a number of folks who've bought old Mac Pros and who talk about their longevity and OpenCore etc. - and it struck me that this time they are missing the point that Apple are switching architectures - there's no way OpenCore or anything else will help once Apple close the door on Intel Macs.

My problem, frankly, is the cost of them! When I got my Mac mini I bought a refurbish mid-range model for a good price and then bought and fitted the RAM myself. Before, that I upgrade both the RAM and storage in my 2011 MacBook Pro. None of this is possible any more - it's pay Apple's prices for RAM and storage or switch.

I feel as if I am being forced down the PC route!
 
My buddy who bought a 16-core Intel 2019 Mac Pro Rack with (I think) 192 ram and 4tb drive for like $15k new is hoping to get $3k for it not even four years later. And our favorite Mac refurbished / used reseller would only offer him $2,500 for it as he’s got a couple dozen of them piling up in the back room.

That should give you some idea of the rapid decrease in viability going forward. Intel Macs are only a good buy for those who have VERY specific use cases, such as certain PCIe cards they just cannot live without, and can deal with a machine that’s frozen in time. This involves making sure you have all of the installers for the versions of apps and macOS that you need to build new boot drives, etc. Not for the faint of heart or casual user, more for the post facility that absolutely needs to keep a dozen video capture or playback rigs with outdated but still perfectly good Kona cards (or whatever) working 24/7 in the machine room.

I froze my Intel machines at macOS Mojave and have transitioned to Apple Silicon and it’s not a subtle improvement.

Mac Pro 5,1 cheese graters are already pretty far out of date and present challenges to keep them relevant, but Mac Pro 6,1 trash cans are still rolling, and they are a LOT better for longevity than the 2019 Mac Pro. Why? Because you can freely swap / replace the boot drive. It’s not a standard off-the-shelf m.2 blade, but you can get the correct blades from OWC at reasonable prices and they’ll probably be available for a while yet. But the 2019 Mac Pro boot drives are tied to the specific T2 chip / motherboard of the machine they came in, and replacements are only available from Apple at significant cost. Although it appears that the current Mac Pro uses the same modules, and they are available today, having Apple as the only source for them puts you right back in the same ticking boat. So, weirdly, the older 6,1 machine may be able to be repaired and upgraded with third-party bits for longer than the newer machine. And OWC still sells drives and memory for Macs that are wwwaaayyyyy out of date.

And, yes, if the T2-locked boot drive in the 2019&up Mac Pro dies, you can install an internal PCIe or SATA drive and boot from that, but it’s not quite as elegant as having the boot drive where Tim Cook intended….
 
Last edited:
Even though my 2020 iMac is steaming along nicely, I feel I'll be in the same boat sooner than later.....hopefully I can get a few more good years out of it. It owes me nothing. Just in case, I've made the plunge back into using Cubase more often, and so far I'm really digging the C13 trial (I have C10). When the time comes, and it will, moving back to PC will be a solid option and Cubase is cross-platform. I love Logic and Mac, but I'm getting tired of Apple's redundancy strategies.
 
Echoing @charlieclouser. If you're interested in performance and longevity, the Intel/Silcon wars were a wipe out for Intel. It's not close. I saw at least a doubling of performance here when comparing my M2 Ultras to 28 Cores with identical systems (we risked it and did migration upgrades - which were painless). Even my M2 Max laptop hammers my 28 core.

Intel 2019's didn't suddenly become terrible, it is still an excellent machine, I use them for VEP, Pro Tools print rigs etc… As we go forward, the 28 cores will stay at Ventura 13.6. But…
Unless there's a need for PCIe slots and huge amounts of RAM, I'd be looking at M1/M2 Macs/Macbooks onwards if I was buying a second hand machine.
 
charlieclouser said:
Mac Pro 5,1 cheese graters are already pretty far out of date and present challenges to keep them relevant, but Mac Pro 6,1 trash cans are still rolling, and they are a LOT better for longevity than the 2019 Mac Pro. Why? Because you can freely swap / replace the boot drive. It’s not a standard off-the-shelf m.2 blade, but you can get the correct blades from OWC at reasonable prices and they’ll probably be available for a while yet. But the 2019 Mac Pro boot drives are tied to the specific T2 chip / motherboard of the machine they came in, and replacements are only available from Apple at significant cost. Although it appears that the current Mac Pro uses the same modules, and they are available today, having Apple as the only source for them puts you right back in the same ticking boat. So, weirdly, the older 6,1 machine may be able to be repaired and upgraded with third-party bits for longer than the newer machine. And OWC still sells drives and memory for Macs that are wwwaaayyyyy out of date.
Click to expand...
I was looking at some 6,1s, they are extremely good value right now on eBay. But I worked out that the performance wouldn't be much different to my Mac mini (even with an 8 or 12 core Pro), and my Mini has the advantage of Thunderbolt 3.
 
Jeremy Spencer said:
Even though my 2020 iMac is steaming along nicely, I feel I'll be in the same boat sooner than later.....hopefully I can get a few more good years out of it. It owes me nothing. Just in case, I've made the plunge back into using Cubase more often, and so far I'm really digging the C13 trial (I have C10). When the time comes, and it will, moving back to PC will be a solid option and Cubase is cross-platform. I love Logic and Mac, but I'm getting tired of Apple's redundancy strategies.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's one option I'm thinking of as well - looking at both Cubase and Reaper. But I would miss Logic's plug-ins and also the Drummer feature.
 
SimonFranglen said:
Echoing @charlieclouser. If you're interested in performance and longevity, the Intel/Silcon wars were a wipe out for Intel. It's not close. I saw at least a doubling of performance here when comparing my M2 Ultras to 28 Cores with identical systems (we risked it and did migration upgrades - which were painless). Even my M2 Max laptop hammers my 28 core.

Intel 2019's didn't suddenly become terrible, it is still an excellent machine, I use them for VEP, Pro Tools print rigs etc… As we go forward, the 28 cores will stay at Ventura 13.6. But…
Unless there's a need for PCIe slots and huge amounts of RAM, I'd be looking at M1/M2 Macs/Macbooks onwards if I was buying a second hand machine.
Click to expand...
A basic M2/M3 would be double the CPU performance of my Mini - more than enough.

But I do use more than the 24GB of RAM that they take - and even if 24GB was enough it's expensive. But the price of the Pro or Max models is even more so!

I've no use for the graphics improvements, and while I probably could use the extra CPU cores from time-to-time, again, price wise what would have been quite reasonable when I bought and upgraded the RAM myself equates to 2x or more for an AS Mac - quite an increase for a hobbyist. And then there's storage - similar, although at least I can use external SSDs for samples and projects.

The issue with used as that, depending on the age and history of the machine, the SSD may not be in great shape, and you can't replace them. I'd only consider an Apple refurb for used, and they're not that much cheaper.

Wayne
 
I also had a 2018 Mini with 32Gb of RAM. I bought the M2 Pro Mini with the same RAM, and it's lightyears ahead. (And doesn't struggle with larger displays.)

I have 1 Tb of storage, but I did run my sample libraries off an external SSD for a bit without any problem.

I wouldn't advise buying an Intel Mac, no matter how cheap. As you say, it's a gamble how long you can keep them up-to-date; and they are slower, and hotter. A 2013 Mac Pro has the old-style Thunderbolt connectors, and no USB-C.

Having ridden the change from Motorola to PPC; from PPC to Intel; and from Intel to M-series: I'd say that if you buy a M-series now, you'll get the longest life out of it.

The hardware is all but identical across the M1 to the M3, so there's no 'cut-off point' for Apple to say in 2028 that the next OS won't support M1s..

Yes, Macs are not upgradable in any meaningful sense now. The history of electronics is one of 'integration'. Your 2018 Mini's SSD can't be upgraded, either.

If you can start putting some money away now, you may be able to get enough together for a decent Mac before Intel goes boom (or just stick it on the never-never card....).
 
Last edited:
Literally on the same boat and planning to upgrade to a newer machine. I have a mac mini 2018 6 core i5, on which I manually maxed the RAM to 64 gigs which was a waste of money(still cheaper than mac ram upgrades) because 6 core i5's start coping after 40 tracks of orchestral samples (running from external ssds), even 20-30 audio tracks with 3-4 non stock plugins in maybe half of them doesn't work and I literally can't write shit on this machine and not to add that bluetooth is pretty much non functional on minis once you connect external ssds and that fan is always running! I am bound to Macs due to logic but planning on investing on a high end Mac Pro laptop M3 max with at least 96gigs ram 14 core and 1tb ssd because that seems the safest route to maintain it on a long term basis if you are stuck to logic and also I like the idea of writing anywhere with laptop and couple of ssds and portable midi keyboard. Will probably try to buy it in installments if I can but buying an older mac machine seems counterproductive at this point and switching to PC land might be a better route for you than using old macs. Also if I have learnt one thing from my buying experience, it is to always buy the latest and most maxed out spec wise products, either refurbished or new.

Always wondered how many tracks difference or performance wise would a 14 core m3 max mac laptop vs 24 core m3 max mac studio....
 
charlieclouser said:
My buddy who bought a 16-core Intel 2019 Mac Pro Rack with (I think) 192 ram and 4tb drive for like $15k new is hoping to get $3k for it not even four years later. And our favorite Mac refurbished / used reseller would only offer him $2,500 for it as he’s got a couple dozen of them piling up in the back room.
Click to expand...
Interesting! But actually kind of to be expected and that is also why I went with a Hackintosh and did not go for the 7.1 Mac Pro. But for the current price it comes on the range of getting decent slave for samples for those, who still need that kind of thing. The fact that you can get so much RAM in the old Mac pros makes them still appealing ... well, only for that price! :)
And, yes, if the T2-locked boot drive in the 2019&up Mac Pro dies, you can install an internal PCIe or SATA drive and boot from that, but it’s not quite as elegant as having the boot drive where Tim Cook intended….
Click to expand...
Can you install Windows on these or will the T2 Chip prevent that?
 
Jeremy Spencer said:
When the time comes, and it will, moving back to PC will be a solid option and Cubase is cross-platform. I love Logic and Mac, but I'm getting tired of Apple's redundancy strategies.
Click to expand...
This happened to me a long time ago, the reason i left apple. Its so easy for them to exclude all the intel stuff from their newer OS. Later on I settled on hackintosh, which ended with them killing the NVidia drivers in favor of AMD. So now I'm a happy windows user with no complaints. I can upgrade my pc however i want without all those stupid limitations imposed by apple on both software and hardware.
 
The-Architect said:
Literally on the same boat and planning to upgrade to a newer machine. I have a mac mini 2018 6 core i5, on which I manually maxed the RAM to 64 gigs which was a waste of money(still cheaper than mac ram upgrades) because 6 core i5's start coping after 40 tracks of orchestral samples (running from external ssds), even 20-30 audio tracks with 3-4 non stock plugins in maybe half of them doesn't work and I literally can't write shit on this machine and not to add that bluetooth is pretty much non functional on minis once you connect external ssds and that fan is always running! I am bound to Macs due to logic but planning on investing on a high end Mac Pro laptop M3 max with at least 96gigs ram 14 core and 1tb ssd because that seems the safest route to maintain it on a long term basis if you are stuck to logic and also I like the idea of writing anywhere with laptop and couple of ssds and portable midi keyboard. Will probably try to buy it in installments if I can but buying an older mac machine seems counterproductive at this point and switching to PC land might be a better route for you than using old macs. Also if I have learnt one thing from my buying experience, it is to always buy the latest and most maxed out spec wise products, either refurbished or new.

Always wondered how many tracks difference or performance wise would a 14 core m3 max mac laptop vs 24 core m3 max mac studio....
Click to expand...
My M2 Laptop with 96GB RAM happy ran 800 tracks of 96Khz audio, dozens of VI's - mainly Kontakt, a boatload of plugins, video at 50-60% CPU. My editors use laptops, running up to 1200 tracks and video with no issues. Anything you get will be fine.
 
charlieclouser said:
My buddy who bought a 16-core Intel 2019 Mac Pro Rack with (I think) 192 ram and 4tb drive for like $15k new is hoping to get $3k for it not even four years later. And our favorite Mac refurbished / used reseller would only offer him $2,500 for it as he’s got a couple dozen of them piling up in the back room.
Click to expand...
That would have probably cost him around 5 grand with similar specs, if he had gone with a windows pc. While i do agree that macs have their merits, not to the point of investing double for the same performance. No way.... Its also easier to sell, as you can even sell the stuff separately.
 
Some more food for thought:

Microsoft is pushing Windows 11 ARM, because they also want to get away from Intel, because these machines get too hot, which results in loud fans, most people get annoyed of. The IT press reports, that MS is working on a new Surface based on ARM, that will be even faster than a MBP M3 ... we'll see.

Btw, I had a mid 2014 MBP with i7, that served me well for nearly 10 years and is still used by my son in law with OCLP and Ventura. And I expect my new MBP M3 Max to last similar long ... I just needed to spare longer to be able to buy it.
When it comes to music production I don't want to use Windows, because it's too much hassle to fine tune and these machines are just too loud for mic recordings.

But if anyone wants to switch to Windows, just ask yourself how long it will take until Windows will also run mainly on ARM ;)

Thrilling times.
 
Aymara said:
Some more food for thought:

Microsoft is pushing Windows 11 ARM, because they also want to get away from Intel, because these machines get too hot, which results in loud fans, most people get annoyed of. The IT press reports, that MS is working on a new Surface based on ARM, that will be even faster than a MBP M3 ... we'll see.

Btw, I had a mid 2014 MBP with i7, that served me well for nearly 10 years and is still used by my son in law with OCLP and Ventura. And I expect my new MBP M3 Max to last similar long ... I just needed to spare longer to be able to buy it.
When it comes to music production I don't want to use Windows, because it's too much hassle to fine tune and these machines are just too loud for mic recordings.

But if anyone wants to switch to Windows, just ask yourself how long it will take until Windows will also run mainly on ARM ;)

Thrilling times.
Click to expand...
Jeez, that's not good. I guess I'll see where things are at in a few years.

I also have a MBP (2013), that is still solid as a rock. Upgraded to the iMac in 2021, but only for more horsepower.
 
Aymara said:
But if anyone wants to switch to Windows, just ask yourself how long it will take until Windows will also run mainly on ARM ;)

Thrilling times.
Click to expand...
I might be wrong, but i dont think microsoft which is primary a software selling company will do this any time soon, which is not the same story with apple that sells you the hardware and you can upgrade OS freely. I have an older 2012 toshiba laptop (which i dont use anymore), and just for the fun of it, i replaced the drive with a SSD and install windows 11. For basic stuff it runs really good (not the same story with apple).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom