Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread

[Jonathan Moray]

I'm not really too impressed with any of the version of Leia's Theme posted here. But if I had to choose one it would be Infinite Woodwinds. It's the most consistent and doesn't have as many imperfections and quirks as the other ones. @Land of Missing Parts BWW Exp B as second for consistency, and maybe @5Lives CineWinds for tone. BWW Exp B only having a single velocity layer helps a lot with the consistency of the tone, legato, and most of all, the vibrato.

@El Buhdai, did you use anything else, other than vibrato and dynamics with IWW? Because I believe it would help to add some slight harmonics in places. The one thing, and this is a problem across everything modelled/semi-modelled (or whatever you want to call it), it often sounds too steril, it's too perfect. But at least with this approach you control the imperfections.

Adding a bit of a shelf EQ from 8k also helped with the tone of IWW in my opinion.



@El Buhdai, @Land of Missing Parts, @5Lives, or anyone else.

If you'd like I have a track you could compare next. I've recently listened a bit to the score for The Passion of The Christ, and it has some really hauntingly beautiful melodies. Especially in the track 'Peter Denies Jesus' there's a really good flute part. There's actually two flute parts; the ethnic flutes doing the bending right at the beginning, and the main melody. Both parts would be interesting to see which libraries might be able to pull it off. I know BWW, nor IWW, has any ethnic flutes, yet, but standard flute bends should do.

The piece is not extremely advanced or hard to play, but it is rather agile in parts, and it would be interesting to see how the different libraries handla that without tripping up.

John Debney - Peter Denies Jesus (The Passion of The Christ)

 

[Dan]

I'm curious on the strings: was this primarily using the CSS marcato patches?

It uses mostly spiccato, only very few marcato notes.

 

[Jonathan Moray]

If anyone wants to do the mockup for Peter Denies Jesus, here's a rough midi of it.

The midi is made for instruments where the vibrato is only an on / off switch so there's barley any ramps. If your going to use something like IWW, or any other library with gradual vibrato, you will need to change it to ramps. I'm using CC2 as vibrato and CC1 as dynamics. No other CCs used, only CC11 at 127 at the start of the track so if you have that assigned to anything other than volume you might want to remove it.

Right now I have three version:
CineWinds (CineSamples)
Symphonic Woodwinds (Spitfire)
Berlin Woodwinds (Orchestral Tools) - This is the Flute from Inspire which means that it's the legacy flute I believe and also not the full version. I might be able to get a version of the "real" BWW later.

 

[Eptesicus]

I think the one thing those Leia flute demos highlight is that NONE of them can do the repeated note at the start of the phrase convincingly.

A big problem with samples, generally. One of the few libraries that can do that well is Soaring Strings as they actually sampled rebows.

Don't know how you would do it with winds. I guess you would sample "reblows"

 

[Jonathan Moray]

I think the one thing those Leia flute demos highlight is that NONE of them can do the repeated note at the start of the phrase convincingly.

A big problem with samples, generally. One of the few libraries that can do that well is Soaring Strings as they actually sampled rebows.

Don't know how you would do it with winds. I guess you would sample "reblows"

I agree. Rebows and "reblows", as well as vibrato, are big problems when dealing with samples generally. And that was evident with the Leia demos.

Another thing that often gets me is going back and forth between two notes for an extended period of time, just a simple rocking motion for a few bars. But since barley anyone sample RR for legato and longs you very quickly become painfully aware of the limitations of samples. It's usually fine if it's buried far in the background.

 

[Eptesicus]

I agree. Rebows and "reblows", as well as vibrato, are big problems when dealing with samples generally. And that was evident with the Leia demos.

Another thing that often gets me is going back and forth between two notes for an extended period of time, just a simple rocking motion for a few bars. But since barley anyone sample RR for legato and longs you very quickly become painfully aware of the limitations of samples. It's usually fine if it's buried far in the background.

It surprises me how few companies sample reblows and rebows. It makes a massive difference. It's why I think soaring strings has probably the best and most agile legato of all. I have had to layer it in to tracks with CSS as it simply copes better with some repetitive arpeggios phrases.

 

[Dan]

Thank you for those great flute demos, guys!

Now I just had to try and see what it would sound like with an Infinite Solo Flute, not an ensemble.
Full disclosure: I took control of most of the library's features to shape the sound as beautifully as I could.



I also brought the flute up really close so there's no hiding in the reverb.

I think it doesn't sound too bad to be honest in terms of the performance. That's what I like about Inifinite Libraries: Even with the slightest change in Velocity or CC whatever, you can completely change the phrasing. Really endless possibilities.

EDIT: For example, I just noticed that the attack of the repeated note at around 8, almost 9 seconds in the track is still a bit too harsh and sounds out of place. Now if I simply play around with the velocity of that note I can shape the attack to my liking and probably get it to sound even smoother. (I think the mistake here was to make its attack higher that the attack of the previous note, so it seems to "jump out"). I'm sure some users would find it tiresome to have to look after every little detail, but for me personally it is great because it gives me the possibility to get really close to how I want the performance to be.

 

[Dan]

If anyone wants to do the mockup for Peter Denies Jesus, here's a rough midi of it.

The midi is made for instruments where the vibrato is only an on / off switch so there's barley any ramps. If your going to use something like IWW, or any other library with gradual vibrato, you will need to change it to ramps. I'm using CC2 as vibrato and CC1 as dynamics. No other CCs used, only CC11 at 127 at the start of the track so if you have that assigned to anything other than volume you might want to remove it.

Right now I have three version:
CineWinds (CineSamples)
Symphonic Woodwinds (Spitfire)
Berlin Woodwinds (Orchestral Tools) - This is the Flute from Inspire which means that it's the legacy flute I believe and also not the full version. I might be able to get a version of the "real" BWW later.

Okay, so here's my Infinite version of this.

I kept it really simple this time, using only Velocity and CC1 for Dynamics (which I changed at a few places to better fit the Infinite Flute).
Vibrato settings stay the same throughout, but I turned up Breath Noise by a fixed amount throughout the whole piece to make it sound a bit more like an ethnic flute...

 

[Dan]

I agree. Rebows and "reblows", as well as vibrato, are big problems when dealing with samples generally. And that was evident with the Leia demos.

Another thing that often gets me is going back and forth between two notes for an extended period of time, just a simple rocking motion for a few bars. But since barley anyone sample RR for legato and longs you very quickly become painfully aware of the limitations of samples. It's usually fine if it's buried far in the background.

I think that especially in those cases the Infinite Libraries really have something to offer.
Each note attack and transition is ever so slightly different each time, so you can really get repetitive.

Attached are two examples with the Infinite Flute.

The first one is just two notes repeating. All with exactly the same note velocity. All with the exact same level of CC1. The Instrument is doing all the subtle variation.

The second one is an arpeggio. Same thing regarding velocity and CC1.

If you additionally alter that performance in terms of velocity and dynamics, you can really get something out of it.

 

[Jonathan Moray]

Thank you for those great flute demos, guys!

Now I just had to try and see what it would sound like with an Infinite Solo Flute, not an ensemble.
Full disclosure: I took control of most of the library's features to shape the sound as beautifully as I could.



I also brought the flute up really close so there's no hiding in the reverb.

I think it doesn't sound too bad to be honest in terms of the performance. That's what I like about Inifinite Libraries: Even with the slightest change in Velocity or CC whatever, you can completely change the phrasing. Really endless possibilities.

EDIT: For example, I just noticed that the attack of the repeated note at around 8, almost 9 seconds in the track is still a bit too harsh and sounds out of place. Now if I simply play around with the velocity of that note I can shape the attack to my liking and probably get it to sound even smoother. (I think the mistake here was to make its attack higher that the attack of the previous note, so it seems to "jump out"). I'm sure some users would find it tiresome to have to look after every little detail, but for me personally it is great because it gives me the possibility to get really close to how I want the performance to be.

As I thought; Infinite Woodwinds does the repeated notes quite well, it just depends on in whose hands it's in, since you really have total control over it. If you play it with too low of a velocity it will sound disconnected by a too noticeably fade in, while too high velocity will make it sound like a sforzando / marcato and that will also make noticeably disconnected. You have to find the sweet spot for where it still sounds fluid and connected. But at least you have the option to tweak it to your liking with Infinite Woodwinds. Wheres with other libraries it's really finicky to make in work, if you can make it work at all.

@El Buhdai s Leia version hade the best repeated notes as well.

Okay, so here's my Infinite version of this.

I kept it really simple this time, using only Velocity and CC1 for Dynamics (which I changed at a few places to better fit the Infinite Flute).
Vibrato settings stay the same throughout, but I turned up Breath Noise by a fixed amount throughout the whole piece to make it sound a bit more like an ethnic flute...

Sounds decent. A bit too much vibrato, and it comes in too quickly in most places, but since I know the vibrato is controllable that's not much of a problem. It's not a fault of the library, more of a creative decision. Getting the right vibrato with other libraries is near impossible for me since they are recorded the way they are, I just have to settle and it will have to be good enough because I cant do anything about it... I hate to settle for good enough because of the limitations of a library or because I cant make it behave the way I want it to.

I think that especially in those cases the Infinite Libraries really have something to offer.
Each note attack and transition is ever so slightly different each time, so you can really get repetitive.

Attached are two examples with the Infinite Flute.

The first one is just two notes repeating. All with exactly the same note velocity. All with the exact same level of CC1. The Instrument is doing all the subtle variation.

The second one is an arpeggio. Same thing regarding velocity and CC1.

If you additionally alter that performance in terms of velocity and dynamics, you can really get something out of it.

Yes, exactly. It's the same with Sample Modeling; slight differences make all the difference. And just slightly changing the cc and velocity of each note will make is sound even better.

Trying to not get my hopes up too much for Infinite Strings, time passes faster if I don't wait for it, but it hard with this whole thread...

 

[Land of Missing Parts]

If anyone wants to do the mockup for Peter Denies Jesus, here's a rough midi of it.

The midi is made for instruments where the vibrato is only an on / off switch so there's barley any ramps. If your going to use something like IWW, or any other library with gradual vibrato, you will need to change it to ramps. I'm using CC2 as vibrato and CC1 as dynamics. No other CCs used, only CC11 at 127 at the start of the track so if you have that assigned to anything other than volume you might want to remove it.

Right now I have three version:
CineWinds (CineSamples)
Symphonic Woodwinds (Spitfire)
Berlin Woodwinds (Orchestral Tools) - This is the Flute from Inspire which means that it's the legacy flute I believe and also not the full version. I might be able to get a version of the "real" BWW later.

Here's BWW Exp B playing The Passion of the Christ song. The other examples are on the dry side, so I did the same, though I think there's a lot of tail in the actual soundtrack version.

I agree about the problem of re-blows, and there's a thread going on about that same issue for strings.

String libraries with manual rebow on the same note...

Hy, could you tell me what are the libraries that can do that without any keyswitch or foot pedal.... Just repeat one note and the bow changes. Rebow on repeated notes . Thanks. I think Tina guo 2 does it...

vi-control.net

It will be interesting to see what Cinematic Studio Winds brings to the table, as the strings and brass offer re-b(l)owing.

I really like my BWW Exp B, but it's mostly made to handle the lyrical lines with connected notes. For shorts I usually switch over to BWW (Legacy). The in-between cases are the hardest.

 

[Jonathan Moray]

Here's BWW Exp B playing the Passion of the Christ song. The other examples are on the dry side, so I did the same, though I think there's a lot of tail in the actual soundtrack version.

I agree about the problem of re-blows, and there's a thread going on about that same issue for strings.

String libraries with manual rebow on the same note...

Hy, could you tell me what are the libraries that can do that without any keyswitch or foot pedal.... Just repeat one note and the bow changes. Rebow on repeated notes . Thanks. I think Tina guo 2 does it...

vi-control.net

I really like my BWW Exp B, but it's mostly made to handle the lyrical lines with connected notes. For shorts I usually switch over to BWW (Legacy). The in-between cases are the hardest.

Yes, I kept the tracks in their default loaded state, no EQ or Verb. You can hide a lot of flaws with reverb. I find it more interesting to hear what they would sound like out of the box, not mixed. In the original soundtrack there's quite a lot of reverb. Throwing a good reverb on it would have made it more cinematic / dramatic and closer to the original, but not as interesting when comparing samples.

I gotta say I really like the passion (no pun intended) in the BWW Exp B, you can hear they were developed with solo lines in mind. The gradual vibrato is great. I would say it's recorded that way, right? No crossfade between non vib and vib?

But there's a problem I've heard a lot with BWW Exp B, and it can be heard here as well. It's when going from legato to gradual vibrato (low velocity I think). You can hear it clearly @10s. This would be because they recorded the legato with vibrato. So there's a abrupt change when going from legato with vibrato to gradual vibrato sustain.

 

[re-peat]

Several moments in your example where you can hear stacked samples, Land.
Lots of libraries suffer from this and it puts me off completely, especially with solo instruments.

_

 

[Jonathan Moray]

Several moments in your example where you can hear stacked samples, Land.
Lots of libraries suffer from this and it puts me off completely, especially with solo instruments.

_

I agree, it's a huge problem with traditional sampling. Works alright for bigger sections, but with exposed solo lines, it's very jarring.

Although I honestly cant hear it too much in Lands version, and it shouldn't be a problem with BWW Exp B since it's only a single dynamic layer. For me it's only noticeable between legato and sustains. Anywhere else you can hear it? Or are referring to the crossfades between legato to sustain?

 

[Land of Missing Parts]

Several moments in your example where you can hear stacked samples, Land.

I'd like to better understand what you mean Piet. Can you give more detail? BWW Exp B is one dynamic layer of course, but maybe you are hearing it in the legatos when it transitions between notes?

EDIT: @Jonathan Moray beat me to it, right as I was posting.

 

[NoamL]

For those interested: Here's some playing around with the Infinite Clarinet.

John Williams imitations are one thing, but Sergei Prokofiev imitations, THAT'S impressive, thumbs up!

I think the one thing those Leia flute demos highlight is that NONE of them can do the repeated note at the start of the phrase convincingly.

A big problem with samples, generally. One of the few libraries that can do that well is Soaring Strings as they actually sampled rebows.

Don't know how you would do it with winds. I guess you would sample "reblows"

Cinematic Studio Strings has true sampled rebowing and Cinematic Studio Brass has true sampled retonguing, so Cinematic Studio Woodwinds will possibly have this feature as well.

All of these woodwind examples from different libraries are okay but they remind me of where brass libraries were at circa 2014. There's a lot more potential to unlock. Last year I bought Spitfire Studio Woodwinds very cheaply as a stopgap measure for mockups, and I'm not gonna buy any other winds until CSW comes out. Even if CSW isn't ultimately the best woodwind library ever, I'm at least waiting to comparison shop.

On this forum we often compare libraries on the basis of their strengths but I think a comparison of their weaknesses is more realistic. For each library what is the one or two unavoidable flaws that you will have to work around every single time you use that library? For example whenever I use a string library that doesn't have true rebows it turns out to be an issue. It's just one of the most idiomatic things strings can play and it almost always sounds horrible and unrealistic when there's no sustain RRs or rebow sample. Or another example, the #1 flaw with Sample Modeling Brass is that you have to position and spatialize it. I've heard people create great results with that and also some very obviously not-convincing ones, so, knowing my own limitations in that skillset, it's not for me.

 

[Jonathan Moray]

I think we all are excited for CSW. If Alex track record is anything to go by it's no doubt going to be amazing. Once the Cinematic Studio Series is completed that's probably going to be the my main collection as far as traditional sampling goes. It's the closes I've gotten to traditional sampling feeling like the more abstract semi-modelling approach. But sadly it will most likely still be limited and hindered by the downsides of traditional sampling.

On this forum we often compare libraries on the basis of their strengths but I think a comparison of their weaknesses is more realistic. For each library what is the one or two unavoidable flaws that you will have to work around every single time you use that library? For example whenever I use a string library that doesn't have true rebows it turns out to be an issue. It's just one of the most idiomatic things strings can play and it almost always sounds horrible and unrealistic when there's no sustain RRs or rebow sample. Or another example, the #1 flaw with Sampling Brass is that you have to position and spatialize it. I've heard people create great results with that and also some very obviously not-convincing ones, so, knowing my own limitations in that skillset, I'd never buy Sampling Brass.

Yes! Exactly this. That's why I don't buy libraries based on the company demos because they are usually written to the strength of a library to make it sound as good as possible, which is understandable from a business perspective. But I want to know what a library can't do and what it will struggle to do. Of course knowing it's strengths is important as well, but that's usually more obvious from demos and walkthroughs.

 

[Land of Missing Parts]

For each library what is the one or two unavoidable flaws that you will have to work around every single time you use that library?

For BWW Exp B the main flaws:
-Only really works for longer connected notes.
-Can't do repeated long notes (i.e. re-blows), as demonstrated in the Leia example. Clarinet, however, has a re-tonged legato which potentially would work.
-Limited control of the arcs. I listen back and think "If I had a choice, I wouldn't have raised it there, but oh well".
-Limited control of the attacks. It's hard and soft, I sometimes wish I had an in-between.

Also, I'd be curious to hear more about the "stacking" Piet mentioned above. All of that said, BWW Exp B is currently my favorite for anything with oboes and English horn, and for more prominent lyrical flute lines. I'm not as in to the clarinet, and haven't had much need for alto flute so far.

I'm anticipating replacing my BWW Legacy with CSW, but I imagine BWW Exp B I'll still be using for more exposed lines.

 

[pipedr]

OOH, I love these comparisons. Here's my attempt at Leia's theme with 8dio Claire Flute, Close + Decca mics in default position, using lyrical, strong, and one dynamic arc. I just realized that for some reason, Logic imported a tempo change, which I had thought intentional, so the beginning is faster. If I have time, maybe I'll make another attempt.

 

[Jonathan Moray]

OOH, I love these comparisons. Here's my attempt at Leia's theme with 8dio Claire Flute, Close + Decca mics in default position, using lyrical, strong, and one dynamic arc. I just realized that for some reason, Logic imported a tempo change, which I had thought intentional, so the beginning is faster. If I have time, maybe I'll make another attempt.

Thanks for sharing.

It sounds alright. At bit clumsy in places and I'm not the biggest fan of the phrasing and timber. Although, through no fault of yours. 8Dio Claire is a great example of having to write to the limitations of the library, and since it's strength is it's arc patches and they only work for certain lines, it's hard to sculpt to fit perfectly.