Endless Revisions.

[PaulLawler]

I’ve scored 3 films over this last year. The first two were a dream. The last one has been extremely tough in that over the space of 9 weeks, I’ve scored 1hr 50 minutes of intricate orchestral music to picture, approx 70 scenes, and then had to do an average of 8-10 revisions of each scene as the director and producers endlessly fiddled with things (on the rare times they agreed on what they wanted) That’s around 700 revisions. More often than not they weren’t revisions because they didn’t like something, they were mostly illogical granular level messing which often felt like I was no longer the composer, but music editor, which they didn’t have.

How do people protect themselves from such a situation ? Is this where a manager would come in and put a limit on things, or talk some sense into them on what to realistically expect with indie budgets ? I’ve done everything they asked hoping it might lead to other jobs, but honestly it’s nearly done me in, and I’ve not even done the stems yet :0

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[Thundercat]

I’m sorry I don’t have insights for you, but your instincts are right. Trust yourself.

Hopefully someone will chime in with practical advice.

Perhaps have a clause in the contract that limits revisions to a certain number, and beyond that, more money.

 

[CatComposer]

I have purchased creative gigs on Fiverr and they state up front how many revisions they are willing to do.
Some say 2 or 3, while others say unlimited.
This is helpful because if you agree to x revisions at the start, they probably won't push you to do more.

 

[PaulLawler]

I have purchased creative gigs on Fiverr and they state up front how many revisions they are willing to do.
Some say 2 or 3, while others say unlimited.
This is helpful because if you agree to x revisions at the start, they probably won't push you to do more.

Yes I’ve thought about doing that for future mid budget indies. While I wouldn’t want people to end up dissatisfied with the score, it might well make them consider the brief more, agree on style in advance between all parties, and not ask for changes on the turn of the wind.

 

[soundslikejoe]

I use contracts with details that outline everything. They get X number of revisions and 1 rewrite for free. I define the difference in a revision and rewrite. I also spec the amount charged for labor beyond X revisions. At that point, 700 revisions just becomes additional paid service, and it feels less like abuse.


X is a variable that I ask the producer/director to determine they want. Unlimited revisions? The cost of the package price is much higher. They as "Why?" and I say to account for potential labor excess. Endless changes has labor implications. Or they can pick a reasonable number, say 4 or 2 or etc (something I'm comfortable with) and once the wheels fall off... they control themselves or pay for the privilege of indecision.

 

[soundslikejoe]

I also recommend that a SINGLE person become the final communicator and only voice the composer must respond too. They can argue internally, but by the contract I only have to do what one of them says. If they can't agree... it's not getting done, but I'm not trying to please a committee of people. Only one person gets to say what revisions I must do.

 

[PaulLawler]

I also recommend that a SINGLE person become the final communicator and only voice the composer must respond too. They can argue internally, but by the contract I only have to do what one of them says. If they can't agree... it's not getting done, but I'm not trying to please a committee of people. Only one person gets to say what revisions I must do.

These are really interesting points, especially having these things in the contract, which I will definitely look at in the future. How do you determine what is an acceptable number for X ?

Also, how would you deal with a situation where you score the whole film having only dealt with the director, and then at the end the producers turn up and say oh no half of this is not what we wanted at all. I only deal with the director 99% of the time, but he can often insist on things, and then they want them taken out or changed etc

I'm trying to please not just the director and 2 producers, but also the producers relatives and friends.

 

[Thundercat]

These are really interesting points, especially having these things in the contract, which I will definitely look at in the future. How do you determine what is an acceptable number for X ?

Also, how would you deal with a situation where you score the whole film having only dealt with the director, and then at the end the producers turn up and say oh no half of this is not what we wanted at all. I only deal with the director 99% of the time, but he can often insist on things, and then they want them taken out or changed etc

I'm trying to please not just the director and 2 producers, but also the producers relatives and friends.

That's insanity and that's abuse of your time and talents.

You may not be in the position to do so, but I'd be at the point to say, "gentlemen, I've done everything the director has asked. If you had different requirements, you needed to tell me a month ago while the work was being edited. I'm happy to work with your changes, but this will cost X in additional (per soundslikeJoe's suggestion)."

Gotta stand up for yourself - you are worthwhile.

 

[PaulLawler]

That's insanity and that's abuse of your time and talents.

You may not be in the position to do so, but I'd be at the point to say, "gentlemen, I've done everything the director has asked. If you had different requirements, you needed to tell me a month ago while the work was being edited. I'm happy to work with your changes, but this will cost X in additional (per soundslikeJoe's suggestion)."

Gotta stand up for yourself - you are worthwhile.

Actually I did, but because I like the film and think something else could come from it, and because I know they have no more money, we agreed some weeks ago, that it would stop there and then and that any further instructions I would get would be approved by everybody in advance, but, that didnt happen as I found out to my peril recently, and is still pretty much ongoing now one of the parties discovered they can cut and paste bits from previous tracks to create new versions for me to 'sew together' regardless of tempo or key signatures.

 

[Thundercat]

Actually I did, but because I like the film and think something else could come from it, and because I know they have no more money, we agreed some weeks ago, that it would stop there and then and that any further instructions I would get would be approved by everybody in advance, but, that didnt happen as I found out to my peril recently, and is still pretty much ongoing now one of the parties discovered they can cut and paste bits from previous tracks to create new versions for me to 'sew together' regardless of tempo or key signatures.

Well good on you for standing up for yourself. But you see the producers never respected you to begin with. Better to let sleeping dogs lie.

 

[PaulLawler]

Well good on you for standing up for yourself. But you see the producers never respected you to begin with. Better to let sleeping dogs lie.

It does seem that way doesn't it. Thanks for your thoughts anyway, much appreciated.

 

[soundslikejoe]

I'm trying to please not just the director and 2 producers, but also the producers relatives and friends.

(see previous post too)

You define the revision process in the contract phase. There will be ONE person from the production team that can submit revisions to the composer, and the composer only has to respond to ONE person identified in the terms of service. If they argue among themselves, fine. They resolve their points internally, and one person sends you a request.

 

[PaulLawler]

(see previous post too)

You define the revision process in the contract phase. There will be ONE person from the production team that can submit revisions to the composer, and the composer only has to respond to ONE person identified in the terms of service. If they argue among themselves, fine. They resolve their points internally, and one person sends you a request.

I'm sure I saw somewhere about Junkie XL being fired from a film for only listening to the director instead of the producers ...?

 

[Thundercat]

I'm sure I saw somewhere about Junkie XL being fired from a film for only listening to the director instead of the producers ...?

Still doesn't justify accepting that kind of abuse. I'd rather work at Taco Bell than be treated like that.

 

[PaulLawler]

Still doesn't justify accepting that kind of abuse. I'd rather work at Taco Bell than be treated like that.

You’d probably be on a better hourly rate too.

 

[Ivan Duch]

I've been there a few times. You have to state a max amount of revisions when you send a quote. And say how much any extra revision cost after that.

Some producers might become like that because they're just abusive or because they don't know what they are doing.

A max revision clause in the contract will make them think twice when they send you feedback without knowing what they really want because they know they are wasting their money now, not only your time.

On your side of things you need to ask for very detailed brief and references.

When you are at this point accept the client isn't really happy with your music and there is not much you can do about it. It's a matter of taste. They are just trying to make you be the composer that you aren't. Adjusted to their own taste.

Again, that is why setting expectations right helps a lot. They should hire a composer which has done what they are looking for in the past or sent a proper demo. And you should ask for a ton of info before writing a single note. Part of our job is reading our clients mind.

The way out right now is total honesty. Explain that you cant financially sustain the current situation and that you need to reach final versions for the music or charge them a bonus.

 

[PaulLawler]

I've been there a few times. You have to state a max amount of revisions when you send a quote. And say how much any extra revision cost after that.

Some producers might become like that because they're just abusive or because they don't know what they are doing.

A max revision clause in the contract will make them think twice when they send you feedback without knowing what they really want because they know they are wasting their money now, not only your time.

On your side of things you need to ask for very detailed brief and references.

When you are at this point accept the client isn't really happy with your music and there is not much you can do about it. It's a matter of taste. They are just trying to make you be the composer that you aren't. Adjusted to their own taste.

Again, that is why setting expectations right helps a lot. They should hire a composer which has done what they are looking for in the past or sent a proper demo. And you should ask for a ton of info before writing a single note. Part of our job is reading our clients mind.

I actually wouldn’t mind if that was the case, but it’s not. I used to do a ton of tv work in the past and every now and then you work for somebody who wants to write their own score using my hands, and that’s what we have. They all rave about how great the music is but then can’t help messing around with it or contradicting each other in what it should do.
Although maybe all that is the usual ott politeness they tend to have when discussing something that doesn’t work- it’s great we really like it .. but. Maybe I don’t actually know what I’m doing, I could even be deluded .

 

[soundslikejoe]

When you are at this point accept the client isn't really happy with your music and there is not much you can do about it. It's a matter of taste. They are just trying to make you be the composer that you aren't. Adjusted to their own taste.

Again, that is why setting expectations right helps a lot. They should hire a composer which has done what they are looking for in the past or sent a proper demo. And you should ask for a ton of info before writing a single note. Part of our job is reading our clients mind.

I find this to be a bit off... It often has nothing it do with the music. This position doesn't account for producers/directors that have NO CLUE what they're doing. The music is likely excellent, and they are just grasping at their own failed vision. There's no amount of skill, style, demo, or pre production that will help in those situations. The scene sucks. You thought music would save it but Williams and Zimmer couldn't lift that trash scene out of the bin.

We need a clear contract and to be successful enough to draw the line against their petty bullshit. Their "taste" could be shite or they could disagree on what they want... A lack of vision or planning does not constitute a problem that my business should solve for free.

It has nothing to do with being happy with the music. They placed the order. They signed the contract. Music was delivered. Revisions will happen according the terms of service. Their failed vision does not constitute slavery on my behalf.

 

[Ivan Duch]

I find this to be a bit off... It often has nothing it do with the music. This position doesn't account for producers/directors that have NO CLUE what they're doing. The music is likely excellent, and they are just grasping at their own failed vision. There's no amount of skill, style, demo, or pre production that will help in those situations. The scene sucks. You thought music would save it but Williams and Zimmer couldn't lift that trash scene out of the bin.

We need a clear contract and to be successful enough to draw the line against their petty bullshit. Their "taste" could be shite or they could disagree on what they want... A lack of vision or planning does not constitute a problem that my business should solve for free.

It has nothing to do with being happy with the music. They placed the order. They signed the contract. Music was delivered. Revisions will happen according the terms of service. Their failed vision does not constitute slavery on my behalf.

Sometimes it is about the music not working in the producer's mind. Nothing wrong with it. It's part of the job. Many great composers have had their music rejected by directors and it didn't have anything to do with the quality of the music.

And it definitely doesn't mean the music is bad or good. It just means it isn't working in the producer's head. When a producer loves the music they tend to have a good gut feeling and go along with it.

It's true that decisions by committee are messy because there's no real vision and the client doesn't really know what they want. But when it's the case they're usually expecting to be pleasantly surprised and sometimes it just doesn't happen.

What I'm trying to say here is the following:

You need a proper contract in place and to set expectations right revision-wise. Projects can become nightmares like this if you don't do that.

But I don't think it's very productive to say your client is an asshole because they're not approving your music or don't know how to provide proper feedback. It's also not bullshit on their part if they're not happy. It's just a creative relationship not working the way everyone wanted it to work.

 

[PaulLawler]

Sometimes it is about the music not working in the producer's mind. Nothing wrong with it. It's part of the job. Many great composers have had their music rejected by directors and it didn't have anything to do with the quality of the music.

And it definitely doesn't mean the music is bad or good. It just means it isn't working in the producer's head. When a producer loves the music they tend to have a good gut feeling and go along with it.

It's true that decisions by committee are messy because there's no real vision and the client doesn't really know what they want. But when it's the case they're usually expecting to be pleasantly surprised and sometimes it just doesn't happen.

What I'm trying to say here is the following:

You need a proper contract in place and to set expectations right revision-wise. Projects can become nightmares like this if you don't do that.

But I don't think it's very productive to say your client is an asshole because they're not approving your music or don't know how to provide proper feedback. It's also not bullshit on their part if they're not happy. It's just a creative relationship not working the way everyone wanted it to work.

You make good points. I didn’t say my clients were an asshole though, just that the process is incredibly difficult due to endless conflicting ideas and methods.