Digital Performer 11.3 update released

[Crossroads]

That's why I moved to a Mac. DP was worth it, and I had had enough of Windows (I've been a PC user since DOS 1.0).

Just my guess, but as DP was written for Mac and only ported as of v8, it probably relies on too many Mac-centric API/graphics conveniences that don't translate or Windows doesn't handle efficiently. DP uses a lot of png files to build the GUI. That may be part of the issue with Windows.

Whatever the reason, DP works very well on Mac. It is night and day compared to PC. Hundreds of tracks scroll smoothly. Switching windows, tabs and window layouts is as quick as any other DAW. Even the audio engine is more efficient on Mac.

I find it extremely shameful of MOTU to then promote this program and ask top dollar for it, knowing very well it doesn't work. It has made me so sour that I refuse to buy anything MOTU ever again, knowing this company willingly puts out this crap. There's no excuse for it.


MOTU is at the top of my company blacklist for this very reason.

 

[dterry]

I find it extremely shameful of MOTU to then promote this program and ask top dollar for it, knowing very well it doesn't work. It has made me so sour that I refuse to buy anything MOTU ever again, knowing this company willingly puts out this crap. There's no excuse for it.


MOTU is at the top of my company blacklist for this very reason. Assholes.

Do they know it doesn't work, or should we be asking if there are enough users with no problems that outweigh those that have issues with DP on Windows?

As with any company, it isn't the customers who have issues with an application that determine its viability, it is the internal testing and customers who don't. I really have no idea what their PC user base looks like, and how many have problems. Those of us with issues on Windows may be a minority.

I have reported Windows issues several times over the years, but MOTU wasn't seeing the same on their PCs. Even though I custom build all of my PCs for audio/midi efficiency (with Nuendo, ProTools, etc running well), I always knew DP would be a tossup, given its many years as a Mac-only application. That seems obvious enough.

I know there are PC users and composers running DP, but there must be some combination of hardware that happens to work perfectly well for some. The risk for me at MOTU's crossgrade price was minimal. DP does run on my PC - just not as responsive and snappy as I would like.

I get it that this can be frustrating if you bought DP at full retail, but that is what the demo is for. If it doesn't work, don't buy it. MOTU is generous enough with the 30 day fully functional, no hardware license key demo in that regard.

But I really wouldn't dump MOTU as a company over DP's performance on Windows. It's been well known since DP 8 that it wasn't great on Windows. They tried because users asked, but that doesn't guarantee complete success. Like I said, moving to a Macbook Pro was worth it for me to use DP. Not a huge investment either. It really depends on what workflow is worth to you though. Cubase may be the best solution if sticking with PC is the main concern.

 

[dts_marin]

MOTU is a really small company and the reason things aren't amazing isn't because of some perceived lack of respect towards the users. They must be really struggling to develop DP. They have to compete with huge corporations with practically unlimited budgets. (Apple, AVID, Steinberg/Yamaha)

I switched to a Mac after years of trying to use it on Windows. The performance difference is well worth the extra cost of buying a Mac.

The reason DP costs that much is that they still need an expensive developer team to maintain such a huge codebase even if they don't sell as many copies as the other more popular developers.

DAWs are a special kind of a development hell.

Despite all of the challenges I find the company great and I'll continue to support them as I don't like faceless megacorporations.

 

[dts_marin]

- Can a MIDI track show multiple CCs at once on different lanes and can you draw CC sine curves?

It's a really common feature request so it will be added at some point.

It's never going to be 100% like Cubase but there's room for improvement in many areas so please make sure you send them all your requests at [email protected] after doing the trial. They take feedback seriously.

If you need help with any setup questions this FB group has a lot of active users that can help you:

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

www.facebook.com

 

[devonmyles]

So I tested out DP 11.3 on Windows and...

Still in a laughable state. I don't know what that interface is doing, but it seems to run at 2 frames per second. Having 200 tracks visible, it took 20 seconds from clicking on a fader to it actually being selected and able to move it. And these were just MIDI tracks, nothing else in the project... I had visual glitches, menus not loading properly, VST's being blacklisted for no reason.

I'd suggest letting this one go forever on Windows. They haven't been able to fix it since 2012, and I wouldn't bet a single cent on them being able to fix it ever.

What a mess...

I recently purchased a new MOTU M4 interface (which is absolutely great), and bundled with the free software was Digital Performer lite 11xx. For many years I have been a Cubase user on Windows then moved over to Nuendo. I wasn't after change, but I was curious to give it a go because I have read good things about the DAW. Although, that was from MAC users. My experience on W11 was the same as your experience, not good. In fact, not good at all and a complete waste of time.

 

[Dewdman42]

The problems mentioned seem to be related to gui update speeds. Just out of curiosity, are you or were you using hdpi modes on your windows pc’s with dp11? Any other customizations to color profiles?

I ran into issues some years ago with my Mac also having very slow gui response especially with large projects; when I had customized my Mac’s color profile. This caused a lot of runtime math to be happening and with hdpi it was just that many more pixels to do the math and slowed dp to a crawl. I switched it back to using default rgb profile and suddenly snappy again.

I think it’s a tired old excuse to blame dp windows problems on the fact it was a Mac app for so many years in the past. It has had plenty of time now on windows. But I think very few windows users are actually using it. It doesn’t take much of anything to slow down the gui it would seem, that does not necessarily mean the entire windows build is “crap” but it may mean some people are running into graphics related hang up of some kind and some aren’t. Like I said I have had some similar issues on Mac too. I did figure out a solution on my own, motu tech support didn’t figure it out.

 

[machinesworking]

Honestly I really wish they never released a Windows version, because it's too many configurations, too many variables for a small company with a massive program like DP, there's bound to be some issues on some systems if you have a massive codebase like DP. It's bad enough (and I fit into this category so no offense meant), having an older user base that aren't that computer savvy, that can't predict or trouble shoot their systems when things go south, but to add in a whole other OS with all the drivers and plugin variables on top of all the other ways things end up broken, just seemed like it was predictably going to end up with issues.

I would love just once for an announcement on an open forum of a DP version update to not include every ex user and person who tried out the demo chiming in on how awful the DAW I use is. I'm aware that's asking too much, and people have a right to complain, but one can dream.

 

[dterry]

Honestly I really wish they never released a Windows version,

But then I probably would never have become a DP user. I'm sure my $400 was worth it.
Jokes aside, I completely agree. Nothing that is done well will ever please everyone.

Back to the release: DP 11.3 is running great here. I really like being able to edit midi Clips in the Midi Editor along with unpacked data. That's a big addition, and now we have options in how to handle midi data. No other DAW has that.

 

[Dewdman42]

I think it's good they released windows version and it will eventually reach parity with the mac version. If you want DP to be better supported and grow more, the product needs more market share, and being on windows will eventually pay off in that regard. There was a time when Cubase was struggling a bit on the mac too. Mind you, I don't intend to run windows version of DP any time soon myself either hahaha.

 

[machinesworking]

No I get it, and there does seem to be some more universal issue with cross platform DAWs and parity, it seems reports are always that X DAW runs better on Windows or Mac OS, lots of complaints lately about Live on PC, Cubase as mentioned has had bad Mac versions, and one graphics issue on Windows I recall.

It’s just with DP the user base is tiny compared to Cubase and Logic, and it’s lost ground to Studio One and Reaper as well. It’s weird seeing DP and Cakewalk Sonar be these tiny user bases, and at least in DPs case they’re still very actively upgrading it all the time. maybe I’m being over reactionary, because putting as much effort into it as they hav run the last couple years says it’s probably ding well.


And yes, having Clips editable in the Graphic Editor is fantastic. I really hope they expand it to the Drum and Event list, Matt Leblank literally said in the webinar last week while demonstrating new clip features that he knew I was going to ask about that! Really though Clips scream for drum editor functionality.

 

[kgdrum]

I find it extremely shameful of MOTU to then promote this program and ask top dollar for it, knowing very well it doesn't work. It has made me so sour that I refuse to buy anything MOTU ever again, knowing this company willingly puts out this crap. There's no excuse for it.


MOTU is at the top of my company blacklist for this very reason.

It might be a specific incompatibility issue with your particular PC or some preferences that are causing the issues.It’s well known that DP generally works better on Macs but there must some PC users that are able to use DP with a PC. MOTU aren’t idiots if no one were able to use DP with a PC they would react accordingly. There are so many variables with PC builds,unfortunately your PC just might not be the right build to work well with DP.
Assuming everyone has the same experience that you have had with DP,which is unfortunate might not be totally accurate.

 

[pinki]

I think it's good they released windows version and it will eventually reach parity with the mac version. If you want DP to be better supported and grow more, the product needs more market share, and being on windows will eventually pay off in that regard.

Well maybe in the next millenium.

DP is just a crash fest DAW. They are too small to sort out their problems. It will never happen as it would have happened already, if it was going to.

I used to love Motu back in the nineties, then DP7 was OK and DP9, but anything after that was an unmitigated disaster crash fest. Sorry but I tried, I have the t shirt and all those “it’s your setup” back and forth were a distraction from the essential point.
Of course that’s my personal view, but it is based on real world experience and a deep desire to make it work over several years with Motu support.

When I moved to Logic Pro it was like the clouds parted. Never looked back….well except now, when I see people posting about “do Motu care there are these problems?” …they do, they are lovely people but the code is so old they can do nothing.

 

[Crossroads]

It might be a specific incompatibility issue with your particular PC. It’s well known that DP generally works better on Macs but there must some PC users that are able to use DP with a PC. MOTU aren’t idiots if no one were able to use DP with a PC they would react accordingly. There are so many variables with PC builds,unfortunately your PC just might not be the right build to work with DP.
Assuming everyone has the same experience that you have had with DP,which is unfortunate might not be totally accurate.

It's not. This issue has been reported time and again by almost every PC user out there.

I find that Digital Performer users are way too forgiving on the program. It's not like the Cubase thing which "performs slightly better on Windows" type of thing: DP on Windows is simply unworkable unless you absolutely have no other frame of reference.

Even on MOTUNation, which is staunchly in the "it must be your system" camp, they have ever so slightly acknowledged that it's not good. Again, DP users are way too forgiving for some reason, but it's there. They at one point finally acknowledged it.


Everyone I talked to has had this experience. It has been there since DP8. Search for it if you want. So yes, they are either idiots or worse, they simply continue to knowingly sell a broken product. I suspect it's the latter.

 

[kgdrum]

Well maybe in the next millenium.

DP is just a crash fest DAW. They are too small to sort out their problems. It will never happen as it would have happened already, if it was going to.

I used to love Motu back in the nineties, then DP7 was OK and DP9, but anything after that was an unmitigated disaster crash fest. Sorry but I tried, I have the t shirt and all those “it’s your setup” back and forth were a distraction from the essential point.
Of course that’s my personal view, but it is based on real world experience and a deep desire to make it work over several years with Motu support.

When I moved to Logic Pro it was like the clouds parted. Never looked back….well except now, when I see people posting about “do Motu care there are these problems?” …they do, they are lovely people but the code is so old they can do nothing.

There’s tons of DP users myself included that have more issues with Logic. It might be the Mac, it’s more probably an issue with preferences,plugins etc….in either case to assume it is universally a DP issue is imo shortsighted.
There are too many DP users that don’t have the plethora of issues you had and don’t feel compelled to continually pollute every DP thread to carry your anti-DP personal crusade.

 

[Crossroads]

There’s tons of DP users myself included that have more issues with Logic. It might be the Mac it’s more probably an issue with preferences in either case but to assume it is universally a DP issue is imo shortsighted. There are too many DP users that don’t have the same issues you had.

Except on Windows. Those are universal.

I would challenge anyone from the "it's your setup" camp to actually try it. Seriously. 99% of people who try to shove it away have never seen it. It is unbelievable.

Also, I never said it but I am going to say it now: my PC is an expensive powerhouse that runs any other DAW, no matter how large the project, no matter the plugins, like an absolute monster. To imply one has to change it to accommodate for DP's inherent problems is BEYOND ridiculous. DP is at fault here, not my PC. Otherwise I would have had problems with Cubase, Nuendo, Studio One, Reaper, Reason, Cakewalk, Pro Tools.

DP is the only DAW that doesn't work. The only one. I am so tired of hearing it's my setup. No. It's DP. And only DP. And MOTU is responsible for fixing it. Or not, I don't care anymore. What I do care about is the ridiculous reflecting back of the DP community. MOTU falsely advertises a working DAW on Windows, and I will warn anyone of this company for this. And to never publicly acknowledge this is an asshole move on MOTU's part.

There, I said it.

 

[machinesworking]

Well maybe in the next millenium.

DP is just a crash fest DAW. They are too small to sort out their problems. It will never happen as it would have happened already, if it was going to.

I used to love Motu back in the nineties, then DP7 was OK and DP9, but anything after that was an unmitigated disaster crash fest. Sorry but I tried, I have the t shirt and all those “it’s your setup” back and forth were a distraction from the essential point.
Of course that’s my personal view, but it is based on real world experience and a deep desire to make it work over several years with Motu support.

When I moved to Logic Pro it was like the clouds parted. Never looked back….well except now, when I see people posting about “do Motu care there are these problems?” …they do, they are lovely people but the code is so old they can do nothing.

IMO and you've shared yours here, some people just have no ability to solve issues. I had a recent brutally corrupted AU3 issue with Logic, in fact every other time I open Logic there's some issue or another, it's not my main DAW anymore and errant plugins that run fine in DP mess with Logic. In fact with no hate, (because flatly I ran Logic from 2002 to 2009, I actually really like it), Logic is the most problematic DAW on my system. I don't knock it though, because I have hundreds of third party AU and VSTs in my system, 466 AU's in the Components folder alone. Some of them are out of date and by the simple fact that all DAWs are different don't happen to mess with DP, and mess with Logic.

DP got to Apple Silicon pretty quickly, implemented better MPE support than Logic etc. IMO your opinion on DPs stability etc. is yours, it's not the most stable DAW here, (that would be Bitwig by a mile, because plugin sandboxing fixes 99% of all DAW issues), but because I use it the most and have cleaned out any buggy plugins, it's not the least stable.

I didn't mean my first sentence as an insult if you took it that way, I've noticed over the years that a substantial amount of musicians who are fantastic musicians, are not really that good at trouble shooting what is messing their DAW up etc. I've helped out dozens of friends fix their computers and stabilized unstable systems, and it can be shocking what people who otherwise are insanely good with technology have done (or missed) that kills their setup. I just find it odd that Logic is used as an example of stability, because if most definitely goes in order of stability Bitwig, Reaper, DP, Live, MPC then Logic here.

 

[machinesworking]

Except on Windows. Those are universal.

I would challenge anyone from the "it's your setup" camp to actually try it. Seriously. 99% of people who try to shove it away have never seen it. It is unbelievable.

Also, I never said it but I am going to say it now: my PC is an expensive powerhouse that runs any other DAW, no matter how large the project, no matter the plugins, like an absolute monster. To imply one has to change it to accommodate for DP's inherent problems is BEYOND ridiculous. DP is at fault here, not my PC. Otherwise I would have had problems with Cubase, Nuendo, Studio One, Reaper, Reason, Cakewalk, Pro Tools.

DP is the only DAW that doesn't work. The only one. I am so tired of hearing it's my setup. No. It's DP. And only DP. And MOTU is responsible for fixing it. Or not, I don't care anymore. What I do care about is the ridiculous reflecting back of the DP community. MOTU falsely advertises a working DAW on Windows, and I will warn anyone of this company for this. And to never publicly acknowledge this is an asshole move on MOTU's part.

There, I said it.

It's always plugins, it's not surprising that people with hundreds of plugins (like I would assume anyone with 5+ DAWs on their system has), will break DP. It is literally your setup, but like most people with a crashing DAW that seems to be the "only one", that's enough information, so you're done. I talk weekly with a couple Windows DP users who for some reason still use DP, somehow it works for some people. IMO this is why plugin sandboxing like Bitwig has is such a good idea. To me anyway this is the main thing MOTU could do to solve this.

In the meantime, is it possible for those of us that use the DAW to discuss it without you and others chiming in dozens of times in every thread about how awful it was for you? Can you move on and enjoy whatever of the 5 DAWs on your system you have working in stable condition? We've heard you, you've been acknowledged.

 

[dterry]

Except on Windows. Those are universal.

I would challenge anyone from the "it's your setup" camp to actually try it.

Ok, challenge accepted:

DP runs find on my PC. Custom built by me specifically for DAW use. DP's GUI isn't as responsive as Cubase, but it runs just fine. I scored several films in it on that PC. I only moved to a Mac to get the most out of DP and because Windows is an update/security disaster waiting to happen, not because DP didn't work at all.

So count me in the "DP works on PC" camp, at least compared to the "beyond ridiculous" inherent problems you seem to have faced.

If DP doesn't work for you, find something that does. If sticking with a PC is your most important goal, then you'll have to suck it up and pick a DAW that works best on PC. That certainly rules out Logic, and apparently rules out DP for you as well. That's life, and life doesn't owe anyone anything.

Also, any users reading in who may be new to the audio/composing industry (i.e. less than 10 years), need to understand that DAW companies do not bend to the users' will when it comes to fixes or features, and never will. I could post a long list of issues with Nuendo that I've been reporting for years, and still haven't been addressed, and never will. I've had sporadic corrupted projects occur in every single release since 7 (on PC), and I am running Nuendo 13 now along with DP and ProTools. I found a way to minimize possible corruption issues to near zero, and stick with it because what I gain from Nuendo is worth more than finding a few workarounds.

I've seen this PC vs Mac / DAW A vs B stability debate far too many times over the years, and dealt with good releases and bad releases in every DAW I've used. Software isn't perfect and neither are developers. And they aren't going to come running if my DAW or setup fails in the middle of a project. So that leaves it up to me to ensure I can get the job done regardless.

My solution was to have only one loyalty - to myself and my work - not to PCs, Macs, ProTools, Cubase, Logic, DP or anything else. If a DAW doesn't work, I don't waste 1 minute worrying about it. I find one that does and get back to work. I happen to really like DP, so I found the best way to make DP work *for* me, regardless of its flaws or limitations, even if that meant switching to Mac.

And to that end, it pays to have a backup DAW, duplicate templates and a backup plan, just in case.

 

[pinki]

There’s tons of DP users myself included that have more issues with Logic. It might be the Mac it’s more probably an issue with preferences in either case but to assume it is universally a DP issue is imo shortsighted. There are too many DP users that don’t have the same issues you had.

Like I tried to emphasise: my experience. And believe me when I say I have a lot of experience: I ran DP3 to DP11 professionally in various studios and various set-ups with a high level of expertise. YMMV as they say

I think it's fair to say the 'golden years' of all the A-List composers using DP are long gone. Sadly.

But look, I don't want to get into a flame over this, people are partisan and passionate about DAWs- me too over DP back in the day! I just want to offer the view that I am one of many who had the problem of severe instability with DP for an extended period. It's a beautiful DAW, but it desperately needs a massive code overhaul.

 

[HCMarkus]

It's a beautiful DAW, but it desperately needs a massive code overhaul.

DP11 works smoothly and consistently well on my M1 Mac Studio Ultra. When I moved from Intel to Apple Silicon, my in-progress DP10 projects moved right along with me to DP11, including a 90 minute documentary score, without issue. I'm still using the same template I used on my Mac Pro. AU Rosetta support has allowed me to keep using all my plugins, including the ones that were not AS-Native, until the plugin developers got around to supporting AS. DP runs more instances of VIs on AS than a number of other DAWs. And I love its flexibility in handling audio and MIDI.

"Desperately needs a massive code overhaul" is clearly an opinion; an opinion not shared by me.

I do share the "Beautiful DAW" opinion part, though!