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Dear Villain

Senior Member
Vent time: So, after years of keeping my music low profile on my own websites, and working primarily with classical music for live performance, I decided to start a Soundcloud. I put up a few of my orchestral works (not my concert music, but more film/game stuff) and promoted the heck out of it. Today, I've got 2 followers. Yup, 2 followers. Even with shout outs to Facebook, friend shares (I can see people sharing links, but nobody actually subscribing!), Tweets, etc. and still only 2 followers.

How do you guys do it? I'm not a social media guy by any stretch, but it seems that those with 1000s of Soundcloud followers must be doing something I haven't figured out. Any tips?
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Followers generally mean nothing unless they have a personal interest in your creations. IT SUCKS SO HARD.. When you have slaved away over something and get hardly any pull online. Unfortunately we are a niche and with that comes low traffic. Now take Daniel James for example. He interacts with his audience frequently.. It makes people want to go to his channel. I mean I try to tune into his streams and we pretty much write the same stuff. It's all about incentives. I like what he has to say so I take time out of my day to listen.

Don't let it bother you. I get about 50 plays a day and it's mostly on 7 year old EDM.
 
I only recently started to leverage Social Media...

As said...only recently...2 Videos on YouTube [not linking it here, it's not my thread here] ;)

I think the key is to build a community - talk to the people, encourage them to listen to your stuff, and not just "drop a link" everywhere. Make them anticipate your next track, build a following by not just "putting tracks out" but also by interacting. Saying "thanks", reacting to comments, asking questions they could answer etc.etc.
 
Thanks for your insights, RGcomposer and MatFluor. It's funny, because I have another business focussed on digital content creation that attracts a large fan base simply with the product. I can neglect my social media, YouTube videos and forums for months at a time and still derive good sales and traffic. With my music, which is where my training and passion lies, I never get any momentum online, even if/when people give me positive feedback. Supply and demand, I guess. It's funny, because even though I benefit financially from my other content business, I resent it sometimes, as I'd much rather have success with my music (beyond my own satisfaction creating it, which of course, is success as well!)

Dave
 
@Dear Villain I suppose it is a matter of supply and demand. We are constantly surrounded by music, much more so than in the years before mp3 and Soundcould. When there is such an overwhelming amount of free supply, people get lazy about going out and actually searching for the highest quality. Add to the oversupply the increasing stratification of the market into lots of very specific genres. Many people never seek to hear anything outside of their favorite genre whether it is urban or country or blues or film music or classical. So we composers have a VERY hard time building up any kind of following for our music. It seems that today, either you get millions of hits, or none.

I liked your track. The concepts were great. The midi performance still needs some work, in my opinion, which might be wrong. Just my two cents. I would have liked a wider dynamic range. Also the dreaded "big organ" sound was lurking in the shadows in several places. You combat that with more humanization, and more dynamic variety. Concept, composition (melody or themes or motives, harmony, structure, orchestration), midi-performance, mixing, and finally mastering. Wow, there is a lot that goes into a good piece of music.
 
Saxer said:
If it wasn't your own music, would you go to your account and follow? And if so, why?
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Saxer, don't know if this is a sincere question, or a subtle way of implying my music isn't any good. Assuming the former, it's simply not that easy for me to "imagine it is someone else's music". I like it, or I would not write and share it. I believe it is worth a listen and should enjoy a wider audience. But, every artist feels that way about their own music, as they should. Also, I'm not one to spend a lot of time listening to other music, as I'm always writing my own and don't want to be unduly influenced. I know if everyone followed my path, we'd all be islands unto ourselves, writing only for ourselves, so I am grateful that some people aren't like me in that regard :)

At the end of the day, it is what Paul suggested about the overwhelming amount of content and the fact that everyone, myself included, wants to gain traction. It's a wonderful paradox, where everyone has a voice, and is encouraged to share that voice...then because everyone's shared their voice, nobody's voice can be heard through the cacophony.

Cheers for the food for thought, guys!
Dave
 
I didn't want to imply anything. Sorry if it sounds like that! I only recommend to look from the listeners end. What is interesting for a listener what he/she couldn't get elsewhere? My own experience is that there's so much music around that nobody really knows what to listen to first. Myself included. Normal consumers get stories and media around the performers... things like a star image. Music is mostly a side pack. Then there's music for musicians. Mostly good players on their instruments with followers playing the same instrument on a lower skill level. Then there is music for peer groups: metal fans, gothic, country, rap... a group of people feeling connected by listening to the same music. Movie fans that love everything in movies... so they like the music too. Music producers... people around here, love to talk and learn about music production. Some show their music including the making of and get a lot of followers. And there is music for media, music for sports, music for yoga... etc. But actually nobody looks for just music. At least in my experience.
 
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Saxer,

Very, very well put. In fact, you really did hit the nail on the head. In virtually any form of entertainment, the story surrounding the act/performer/subject is always more interesting to the audience than the product itself. In fact, I should know that the success I've had with my concert accordion and clarinet duo, Acclarion, in terms of 15 years of live performance, recordings, good management, etc. all owes to the fact that two musicians go on stage in front of a "suspicious crowd" (as in, are we really going to sit here and listen to an accordion and clarinet play a concert for 2 hours?!) and win them over with humour, stories, and "shtick" in addition to of course, being reasonably skilled musicians :)

But, doing the same with my composition activities is much harder, because I don't have any following, any way of penetrating through the vast field of other talented composers, etc. It is about the story. It is about the built in community of followers that a particular genre has. It is about everything but the music, which only gets recognition after the following has already been made, typically by offering a service/information/product to the end user that benefits them in their own pursuit. I guess it reinforces the idea that we truly must be our own biggest fan and be proud of what we do, irrespective of what others say (or don't say) about our work.

Thanks again for the great food for thought! Even though I know that others experience these same feelings, it's nice to hear people actually talk about it, and open up. Kind of an informal therapy session :)

Take care,
Dave
 
Dear Villain said:
In virtually any form of entertainment, the story surrounding the act/performer/subject is always more interesting to the audience than the product itself.
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I wouldn't say that the surrounding story is more interesting. It's kind of an anchor. Without the music most entertainment wouldn't be interesting too. Music transports the emotion. Most people can't talk about music and emotions. It's too abstract and too personal. And most people doesn't have the vocabulary to talk about music. Concert critics in local newspapers show this distinctly. And even here in a musicians forum it's mainly tech talk.
It's easier to talk about people, events, jokes. It's like food. Nobody talks about taste. In tons of cooking shows you can see people trying fresh cooked food and make 'mmmmmmmh'! The rest is kitchen work. We probably need something to hold onto. Something we can talk about.
 
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Dear Villain said:
It is about everything but the music, which only gets recognition after the following has already been made, typically by offering a service/information/product to the end user that benefits them in their own pursuit.
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This.
I've got nearly 17,000 Soundcloud followers. Here's why (I think!)
I create "beats" for a living - that's R&B instrumentals. There's a marketplace of people who are specifically looking for this kind of music and so my Soundcloud profile appears in Google searches etc. And my numbers are small cheese compared to some of my contemporaries.

Point is, my music is a service that fulfils a need that other people have. It's not a mark of quality. If I created a Soundcloud profile of my own personal music (poor man's John Williams set to fictional Star Wars scenes...) then I wouldn't get the traction.
 
I haven't managed to figure out how to use soundcloud effectively. Youtube has worked sort of OK for me. These are the things that I noticed:

1) People seem to like a video of a real performer more than an audio recording. If you can obtain one, it helps a lot!

2) When you have video recordings of real musicians, more people are watching, liking, sharing, commenting etc., because you get more than one audience: composer's audience and performer's audience.

3) You could combine different media into a single product. This is an example. I was once asked to write a music piece for a large table tennis tournament in China (actually, this is a few tournaments during one season). After writing that piece (a cross of EDM and classical :dancedance:) I made a table tennis video, and used my music as the background. So far, this has been my most successful music piece, at least in terms of hits, likes, comments etc. I had to make the video content interesting: it is a high quality slow motion footage of a top player, but it looks like many people who came to watch table tennis, liked the music too.

I hope this helps.
 
There is one more thing. Why did you decide to promote only this kind of your music? Perhaps, publishing only your film/game stuff does not put your music (and your craft) in the best light. As I feel it, music for film is a sort of accompaniment to the picture. It supposed to enhance the emotional impact of the picture, to work together with the picture. Without the picture, the music has nothing to support or enhance, and, in isolation, may seem less good than it actually is - like a single voice of a fugue.

Maybe, when you are promoting audio only, it would be a good idea to also promote some pieces that are meant to be heard without any supporting media.
 
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and- said:
There is one more thing. Why did you decide to promote only this kind of your music? Perhaps, publishing only your film/game stuff does not put your music (and your craft) in the best light. As I feel it, music for film is a sort of accompaniment to the picture. It supposed to enhance the emotional impact of the picture, to work together with the picture. Without the picture, the music has nothing to support or enhance, and, in isolation, may seem less good than it actually is - like a single voice of a fugue.

Maybe, when you are promoting audio only, it would be a good idea to also promote some pieces that are meant to be heard without any supporting media.
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This is the reason I stopped making media type music without a scene going with it, you aren't given any context to the piece, sure I have an idea of what would be happening in my head, but nobody that listens to it will so it won't make sense and probably won't impress anyone. That's why I started downloading videos from YouTube and rescoring them with my own music, and people are much more impressed with what I make now because they have something else to accompany it and it forms a complete experience.
 
and- said:
There is one more thing. Why did you decide to promote only this kind of your music? Perhaps, publishing only your film/game stuff does not put your music (and your craft) in the best light. As I feel it, music for film is a sort of accompaniment to the picture. It supposed to enhance the emotional impact of the picture, to work together with the picture. Without the picture, the music has nothing to support or enhance, and, in isolation, may seem less good than it actually is - like a single voice of a fugue.

Maybe, when you are promoting audio only, it would be a good idea to also promote some pieces that are meant to be heard without any supporting media.
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Oh, I completely understand the need to match music with images (we're a very visual society after all!) I don't just promote this kind of music. I separate my concert music from music I'd like to license for film/games, etc. on two different websites. As for what I'm labeling "video game/film music", the truth is, I think of them as stand alone music that COULD be well-suited to film. If you listen to the tracks on my soundcloud, I don't really think they need to be attached to video to make sense. They're essentially completed orchestra works that might be suited as underscore music for various types of productions, as opposed to say "atmospheric" or other music that really doesn't do much on its own except to create a mood.

I have made many youtube videos using video/slideshows, but have never gone as far as to attach a copyrighted video (say a scene from a movie) and add my music over top. For one, I wouldn't know how to remove the original audio (assuming there's a combination of score, sound effects, and dialogue) and two, I don't want my account flagged for copyright violations. Wouldn't this also come across as a desperate tactic to get noticed, especially if the original score is highly regarded?

Thanks for the great suggestions and dialogue! I'm really digging your points of view :)

Dave
 
Dear Villain said:
I put up a few of my orchestral works...still only 2 followers.
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#1. I am a random layperson on the internet with a mild hobby interest in VI's and music, so don't take my input too seriously.

#2. I don't follow anyone on SoundCloud. The only artists I follow on FB are personal friends. So I am not in your target audience--see point #1.

#3. IMO, the question you should be asking is why should anyone rightly should follow your music. Based on a quick listen (while driving in my car), you have not made anything great:
- Song: Not particularly great
- Orchestration: Not particularly great
- Mockup/Musicians: Not particularly great
- Mixing/Mastering: Not particularly great
- Overall experience of listener: Meh

There so much great music out there with amazing songs by gifted composers, masterful orchestration, performed stunningly by some of the world's best musicians, recorded/mixed/mastered by top experts in their craft--available for free on SoundCloud and elsewhere. How can can you (or anyone) plausibly compete?

IMO, thinking that you _should_ be getting followers is a mistake.
 
Dear Villain said:
As for what I'm labeling "video game/film music", the truth is, I think of them as stand alone music that COULD be well-suited to film.
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Sorry, looks like I misunderstood your post. Then it makes sense to promote this music just as music, i.e. without any supporting media.
Dear Villain said:
I have made many youtube videos using video/slideshows, but have never gone as far as to attach a copyrighted video (say a scene from a movie) and add my music over top. For one, I wouldn't know how to remove the original audio (assuming there's a combination of score, sound effects, and dialogue) and two, I don't want my account flagged for copyright violations.
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Oh, no. I didn't suggest to use any copyrighted video without permission. My point was (before I realized that I misunderstood you) to use music, that requires supporting media, with some kind of supporting media. Exactly how or what media... I don't know. I gave you an example what worked for me, to my surprise actually.
Dear Villain said:
I separate my concert music from music I'd like to license for film/games, etc. on two different websites.
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I understand the advantages of doing this, but, I believe, there are also disadvantages: you have to run two sets of promotional activities instead of one. What about having both kinds of music on one website and then separating them within that website?
 
yhomas said:
#1. I am a random layperson on the internet with a mild hobby interest in VI's and music, so don't take my input too seriously.

#2. I don't follow anyone on SoundCloud. The only artists I follow on FB are personal friends. So I am not in your target audience--see point #1.

#3. IMO, the question you should be asking is why should anyone rightly should follow your music. Based on a quick listen (while driving in my car), you have not made anything great:
- Song: Not particularly great
- Orchestration: Not particularly great
- Mockup/Musicians: Not particularly great
- Mixing/Mastering: Not particularly great
- Overall experience of listener: Meh

There so much great music out there with amazing songs by gifted composers, masterful orchestration, performed stunningly by some of the world's best musicians, recorded/mixed/mastered by top experts in their craft--available for free on SoundCloud and elsewhere. How can can you (or anyone) plausibly compete?

IMO, thinking that you _should_ be getting followers is a mistake.
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Woah. Sorry, I've got a grump on today, but that's massively harsh and such a miserable thing to post. Unless I've missed the joke.

Quality is never a barometer of views/fans. (Just look at my profile!)
It breaks my heart when I stumble across random SC accounts full of beautiful music, perfectly orchestrated and written, scored for a film that never was. With 10 views.
 
You just probably haven't created that one spark yet that resonates with listeners. I have a soundcloud account that I used to use years ago for breakbeat and electronica, and I had a friend who created an account around the same time, making similar music.

One month, I uploaded a remix of a track and within no time, it had over 90,000 plays and I was getting dozens of followers per day. Now I thought my previous original tracks were far better, but it seems the listeners thought otherwise. Anyway, once I created that spark, all subsequent tracks at least got hundreds or thousands of plays. My friend who never had that 'breakthrough' track, remained on a handful of plays per track, even though some were awesome.

Bear in mind, this was years ago when a follower was someone who actually wanted to listen to your work. Nowadays it's all an automated load of bollocks full of bot accounts, and pay for follow services. Still my point remains - you need that one track that the masses will love.

Edit: Alternatively, create a buzz around yourself in some other way that organically leads people to follow you, similar to what Daniel James has done for himself with his videos.
 
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