Comparing reverb tails
- Thread starter Nico Schuele
- Start date
whinecellar
Jim Daneker
Follow up - I added acoustic guitar and pizz strings to that HD Cart-Lex 300 comparison and refreshed the dropbox link:
Dietz
Space Explorer
Well, kind of. Nothing easier nowadays than running two (or more) instances in series, or parallel, or cross-fed.
And if you haven't done so already - you should really listen to this reverb in surround and 3D. Easily one of my top-five algorithmic reverb engines these days.
whinecellar
Jim Daneker
After just this little overview, I'm extremely impressed - I can only imagine it in surround! I love that it's fully algorithmic too and not based on impulses. Whoever coded this did a fantastic job and really nailed that classic Lexicon magic.
Pier
Senior Member
whinecellar
Jim Daneker
They're vastly different. Cinematic Rooms is easily one of the best modern sound design reverbs I've ever heard, and is insanely flexible - but the one thing I can't quite get it to do is nail that vintage Lexicon texture; it's very clean and modern.
On the other hand, the more I dig into HD Cart, the more stunned I am - it's easily keeping up with the hardware. Relab's LX480 was as close as I've heard until now... HD Cart is next level and truly the first emulation I'd consider interchangeable with the original.
Honestly between Cinematic Rooms, HD Cart, a Bricasti M7, and AMS RMX16, I think I'd be set for life for every possible reverb flavor
Dietz
Space Explorer
I don't know this plug-in well enough to draw any serious conclusions. Not sure why, but it didn't click for me, so I didn't add it to my arsenal. In the right hands, I'm sure it's a great machine too.
Dietz
Space Explorer
... as long as they rely on algorithmic engines, yes.
whinecellar
Jim Daneker
All of those do... as long as they rely on algorithmic engines, yes.
Dietz
Space Explorer
Yes, of course. Personally I couldn't do without properly sampled real rooms, though.All of those do
Follow up - I added acoustic guitar and pizz strings to that HD Cart-Lex 300 comparison and refreshed the dropbox link:
Thank you for doing these, I was going to ask you prior if you’d be able to do something like this as I was curious.
To me it’s very close and at times subjective, really a credit to HD Cart. Hardware sounds better to me though, like it has slightly more definition and sounds smoother and more pleasing in some instances that is more discernible.
Thanks @Pier for sharing it in there, the in browser playlist is excellent. Everyone needs to use your platform for sharing files here lol. Very handy as a listener to have it all accessible to click around without leaving the page.
whinecellar
Jim Daneker
Yep, there's definitely a place for those too, but for me it depends on the implementation. One of those I really like for drums is IK's The Farm Stone Room - really good. If it's not obvious already, I'm a huge 80s fan and find myself immersed in that world given my current pursuit. Side note: it really is amazing how good things sounded back then and I'm not sure we've bettered it much; with few exceptions (Bricasti), we're still chasing outboard gear that's 30-40 years old and most of the time we're not catching itYes, of course. Personally I couldn't do without properly sampled real rooms, though.
Dietz
Space Explorer
I'd be pretty embarrassed if I suggested to look into MIR 3D now, but - you should look into MIR 3D. 8-)
vitocorleone123
Senior Member
Matt Hill (Liquidsonics) and Sean Costello (ValhallaDSP) are the current day algorithmic reverb gurus.
mducharme
Senior Member
The HD cart vs Lexicon comparison is interesting, but the main thing I noticed is that the HD cart wet has basically this slapback echo in it, I hear a second delayed attack right after the first one (presumably the early reflections followed by the tail). In the HD cart full mix I can still hear this as a slapback echo, whereas it is not audible in the Lexicon full mix.
whinecellar
Jim Daneker
And as I mentioned, I didn't dive too deep in trying to match them, so I'd bet the differences could be further blurred. The more I played with it, the more impressed I was. Looking forward to going deeper with it!
vitocorleone123
Senior Member
You could even use CRP for the ERs and HDC for the tails for more fun.
LiquidSonics
Member
While there are similarities HD Cart and a Lexicon 300 will not be the easiest things to match because the HD Cart algorithm is not in the 300. A stock 480 or 300 Random Hall isn't a million miles away from what's in the expansion cartridge algorithmically, but it's not the same thing - and this is why the project was taken on. We have plenty of Random Hall emulations already but the expansion cartridges are exceptionally rare finds. It would be a shame for that achievement to be lost forever when those are no longer working. Plus there are very few surround algorithms of the era. I don't do a great deal of vintage work, but this one was pretty appealing for those reasons.OK, so I just did a brief comparison between HD Cart and the Lex 300 (freshly serviced, for whatever that's worth). Started with the same factory preset "Large Hall", and they sounded noticeably different (no contest, in favor of the hardware). So I tweaked HD Cart to get as close as I could. Takeaway: the hardware still wins by a decent margin on soloed passages, but in a mix, it would be hard to tell.
Disclaimer: this was all of 15 minutes, and just one preset. I don't know HD Cart well enough yet, so I'm not sure if it can do the dual engine thing like the 300/480L... that's where you really get into the magic of those boxes. 3rd party patches by Italo D'Angelis are insane and have me searching for backups of my old favorites in case my current hardware dies. But man, HD Cart is a great find, and gets as close (or closer) to the hardware than anything else I've tried. I look forward to digging deeper!
Files if you want to compare:
Regarding dual algorithm, no not really, this is not possible because the HD Cart algorithm requires both of the processing boards at the same time to run the one algorithm (typically what shipped stock has a low enough complexity that the algorithms will fit on one of the two processing boards so two things can be run concurrently).
whinecellar
Jim Daneker
@LiquidSonics thanks for those details, especially re: the dual algorithm info. After I first demo'd HD Cart I read all about it on your site, and I totally get the intention behind it - absolutely brilliant and I’m so glad you did it. As you've mentioned, there's no other "legacy" reverb built for surround formats.
For the moment, my use case is purely stereo - I’m always looking for an in-the-box option for those classic Lexicon flavors (not the newer PCM 96-era stuff) and I've always been a bit disappointed with every option I've tried, until HD Cart.
Even though it's a bit of apples & oranges, I’m still able to get exactly what I’m looking for, and ultimately match or even exceed what I can get out of the hardware. That's a first for me. I can't wait to try it in a surround setup!
For the moment, my use case is purely stereo - I’m always looking for an in-the-box option for those classic Lexicon flavors (not the newer PCM 96-era stuff) and I've always been a bit disappointed with every option I've tried, until HD Cart.
Even though it's a bit of apples & oranges, I’m still able to get exactly what I’m looking for, and ultimately match or even exceed what I can get out of the hardware. That's a first for me. I can't wait to try it in a surround setup!
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