Cinematic Rooms with a Convolution reverb or not?

[jadedsean]

Hi Guys,

i am interested if anyone is using CRP with an orchestral template and how they are using it. I have seen people only use this as you can tweek everything and its super versitile. For example, i usually use Altiverb for my early reflections and then disengage the tail and then use an algo to finish. I think this is common knowledge here. I have however seen for example, Guy from Thinkspace say he only uses this verb and noting else. I believe he thinks the algo rooms sound so realistic that he uses just this one reverb. I have also tried this and what i found is, altiverb has a real coloration whereas CRP is super clean. I find Altiverb coloration to be somewhat pleasing but it can get very heavy in the low mids, like someone placed a blanked over your mix. Of course this is easily fixed with EQ but CPR does not really act like this, this is all subjective but i wondered what you guys think of just using CPR instead of the tried and tested method convo + Tail.

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[Supremo]

You probably know the answer. If the library is bone dry but has some in-built convo IRs, then you won’t need to add another convolution reverb for early reflections on top of the in-built one. If you aren’t happy with the original IRs (like for example, the ones used for Sample Modeling instruments), you can bypass them inside Kontakt and use your external convo IRs for the instrument placement as an insert effect and then send to an algorithmic reverb for a tail.
Otherwise, if the library is fairly wet, you must not use another convo on top of that for some extra early reflections. The outcome will sound bad. You will just send it directly to an algo reverb, like Cinematic Rooms, as a tail.

 

[jadedsean]

You probably know the answer. If the library is bone dry but has some in-built convo IRs, then you won’t need to add another convolution reverb for early reflections on top of the in-built one. If you aren’t happy with the original IRs (like for example, the ones used for Sample Modeling instruments), you can bypass them inside Kontakt and use your external convo IRs for the instrument placement as an insert effect and then send to an algorithmic reverb for a tail.
Otherwise, if the library is fairly wet, you must not use another convo on top of that for some extra early reflections. The outcome will sound bad. You will just send it directly to an algo reverb, like Cinematic Rooms, as a tail.

Hey man thanks for the reply. Yes, I am aware of this, my question was more based on the the quality of the simulation of the rooms within CRP rather than a real impulse in Altiverb for example. I just wondered if anyone was using the algorithms for both uses and not bothering with convolution at all.

 

[Junolab]

For me, the ER's are the best of Cinematic Rooms. In the end, both solutions will work just fine and I think you're overthinking it. A change in preset is a bigger change than using algo or convolution. I personally love the flexibility of algo but its more a UX thing than about sound. Then again the Seventh HEaven is algo, but basically behaves like algo so.....

 

[ed buller]

For me, the ER's are the best of Cinematic Rooms. In the end, both solutions will work just fine and I think you're overthinking it. A change in preset is a bigger change than using algo or convolution. I personally love the flexibility of algo but its more a UX thing than about sound. Then again the Seventh HEaven is algo, but basically behaves like algo so.....

The ER set up in CR is delicious. Very intuitive and sounds fantastic.

best

e

 

[Leandro Gardini]

You probably know the answer. If the library is bone dry but has some in-built convo IRs, then you won’t need to add another convolution reverb for early reflections on top of the in-built one. If you aren’t happy with the original IRs (like for example, the ones used for Sample Modeling instruments), you can bypass them inside Kontakt and use your external convo IRs for the instrument placement as an insert effect and then send to an algorithmic reverb for a tail.
Otherwise, if the library is fairly wet, you must not use another convo on top of that for some extra early reflections. The outcome will sound bad. You will just send it directly to an algo reverb, like Cinematic Rooms, as a tail.

In theory, it sounds correct not having more than one early reflection. But in practice, it's way more than sensible rules.
I use more than one early reflection on almost every instrument of my template. My template may sound bad than, but no one has ever let me know.

 

[Junolab]

In theory, it sounds correct not having more than one early reflection. But in practice, it's way more than sensible rules.
I use more than one early reflection on almost every instrument of my template. My template may sound bad than, but no one has ever let me know.

Rules are meant to be broken IMO I see way too many people here in this community who try to do something very specific instead of just getting inspired and then doing whatever the f*** they believe sounds good.

 

[Project Anvil]

Agree with @Junolab

Reverbs aren't some magical ingredient that make everything better. For the purpose of orchestral mockups the purpose of reverbs is often vastly overstated. I see it more as the final 5-10% that can elevate something that's already good to excellent, the proverbial cherry on top. For realism in mockups it is infinitely more important to get the orchestral balance right.

CRP is good, there is no question about it. You could definitely just have CRP as your only reverb. That said, I found that the part I used CRP for (early reflections) I could do almost just as well with the stock Cubase reverb (REverence). I'm sure some discerning ears would be able to tell the difference but for my uses I can do everything I want with stock reverbs and free IR's floating around the interwebs.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad if they have CRP, because it is a very good tool, I've used it, it's great, I just don't need it anymore.

I'm a little bit triggered by the idea that reverb or CRP has anything to do with realism in a mockup. I know you didn't claim this, but from your text I take it Guy did in his video. To me it's a fallacy. Again, reverb is the cherry on top, not some magical fairy dust that makes a shite mockup sound realistic all of a sudden (it doesn't help that the general tendency is toward using too much reverb anyway)

If you're trying to simulate a space just throwing a convolution reverb on something doesn't work, I don't care how good the plugin is. Something that's recorded quite close will have the proximity effect in the recording, so if you throw on a reverb you will have something that's recorded close yet sounds really big which doesn't make acoustical sense. If you want to get the most out of reverbs spend some time learning about psychoacoustics, things like: high frequencies roll off faster over distance than low, the haas effect, the proximity effect, the tendency for distant sounding elements to be more mono-ish in nature, the realization that (early) reflections are just patterns of delays, etc.

These things take time to really integrate into your understanding which is why you should definitely experiment. One thing that really helped me get more command over reverbs is the understanding that reverb/tail = bigness, it's not a room/space in of itself, just the suggestion of size. For emulating a room, you need to look to delays.

Sorry for the tangent there, the point is that no reverb, not even CRP is some kind of silver bullet. You won't regret getting it, but don't expect miracles or you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[jadedsean]

For me, the ER's are the best of Cinematic Rooms. In the end, both solutions will work just fine and I think you're overthinking it. A change in preset is a bigger change than using algo or convolution. I personally love the flexibility of algo but its more a UX thing than about sound. Then again the Seventh HEaven is algo, but basically behaves like algo so.....

Thanks for the feedback. Sidenote, i was always under the impression Seventh Heaven was a sampled convolution reverb.

 

[jadedsean]

In theory, it sounds correct not having more than one early reflection. But in practice, it's way more than sensible rules.
I use more than one early reflection on almost every instrument of my template. My template may sound bad than, but no one has ever let me know.

It just goes to show everyone treats these things differently. I actually like it because there is no right or wrong way, once it sounds good it sounds good.

 

[jadedsean]

Rules are meant to be broken IMO I see way too many people here in this community who try to do something very specific instead of just getting inspired and then doing whatever the f*** they believe sounds good.

Yep i completley agree with you but, on the other hand a little bit of knowledge on the subject has to be a good thing.

 

[Junolab]

Thanks for the feedback, sidenote i alwayd thought Seventh Heaven was a sampled convolution reverb.

Sorry that was also a typo (the sentence also doesn't make any sense :D). I meant "Then again the Seventh Heaven is convolution, but basically behaves like algo so....."

 

[Junolab]

Yep i completley agree with you but, on the other hand a little bit of knowledge on the subject has to be a good thing.

Yeah, that's also fine. In general, there's way too much focus on the tool and not the process in these communities. The fact is that there are tons of professionals out there, who use tools of a "lesser quality" and their mixes sounds much better than ours. A carpenter might prefer a specific brand of hammers, but that doesn't mean that someone else can buy the same brand and then build the same.

The best advice is to work with the tools at hand (usually the stock in DAWs) and then get it to work. Then its easier to know the clear benefits of changing the tool to a different type or brand.

 

[jadedsean]

Agree with @Junolab

Reverbs aren't some magical ingredient that make everything better. For the purpose of orchestral mockups the purpose of reverbs is often vastly overstated. I see it more as the final 5-10% that can elevate something that's already good to excellent, the proverbial cherry on top. For realism in mockups it is infinitely more important to get the orchestral balance right.

CRP is good, there is no question about it. You could definitely just have CRP as your only reverb. That said, I found that the part I used CRP for (early reflections) I could do almost just as well with the stock Cubase reverb (REverence). I'm sure some discerning ears would be able to tell the difference but for my uses I can do everything I want with stock reverbs and free IR's floating around the interwebs.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad if they have CRP, because it is a very good tool, I've used it, it's great, I just don't need it anymore.

I'm a little bit triggered by the idea that reverb or CRP has anything to do with realism in a mockup. I know you didn't claim this, but from your text I take it Guy did in his video. To me it's a fallacy. Again, reverb is the cherry on top, not some magical fairy dust that makes a shite mockup sound realistic all of a sudden (it doesn't help that the general tendency is toward using too much reverb anyway)

If you're trying to simulate a space just throwing a convolution reverb on something doesn't work, I don't care how good the plugin is. Something that's recorded quite close will have the proximity effect in the recording, so if you throw on a reverb you will have something that's recorded close yet sounds really big which doesn't make acoustical sense. If you want to get the most out of reverbs spend some time learning about psychoacoustics, things like: high frequencies roll off faster over distance than low, the haas effect, the proximity effect, the tendency for distant sounding elements to be more mono-ish in nature, the realization that (early) reflections are just patterns of delays, etc.

These things take time to really integrate into your understanding which is why you should definitely experiment. One thing that really helped me get more command over reverbs is the understanding that reverb/tail = bigness, it's not a room/space in of itself, just the suggestion of size. For emulating a room, you need to look to delays.

Sorry for the tangent there, the point is that no reverb, not even CRP is some kind of silver bullet. You won't regret getting it, but don't expect miracles or you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Thanks for the detailed reply, nicley said. I should say though, i never thought that a reverb can make a bad mockup good. I too agree that balance within the orchestra is of course the end goal and reverb as you said the icing on top. Intresting that you said some discerning ears would be able to tell the difference, unless the reverb used is terrible i don't think most people could tell the diffrence. I actally started a thread a while ago asking this exact question, can you hear the difference between other reverbs. Most people can't, of course i am speaking of reverb in context, such as a hall verb on a orchestral peice. I am sure people can tell the difference between a plate, chamber and a room and so on.

Also i should mention, i am using libraies and ultilizing their mic positions. For me this creates the depth i am looking for and most times i add a little tail to finish it off. I also use eq to create more Z-depth within the orchestra. I don't really like the Hass effect and don't buy into the close mic idea too. To my ears this is even more work and over thought. Thanks again for the response i enjoyed reading it.