Best Expression/Modulation practices

[TMOfficial]

Hey guys! Orchestra Tools is my main library I compose with. That being said, is there anyone else out there using their libraries that could offer some advice. I'm sure the same techniques could/would apply to other libraries. But I find it hard to get a complete fade out with changing the dynamic range for forte to piano for example. I noticed the NIENTE feature on OT but when I select it, I can't really hear a big difference.
I've seen some composers set the modulation and then do a similar pattern with the expression. I usually set my expression for all instruments (except for certain occasions) the same same level. But then I find myself fading down (on expression) from like a set level of 30 down to 8 or 6 just to try and get that clean fade out. But that's not always fool proof.

Or is this simply a matter of reverbs?

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[The Gost]

Hey guys! Orchestra Tools is my main library I compose with. That being said, is there anyone else out there using their libraries that could offer some advice. I'm sure the same techniques could/would apply to other libraries. But I find it hard to get a complete fade out with changing the dynamic range for forte to piano for example. I noticed the NIENTE feature on OT but when I select it, I can't really hear a big difference.
I've seen some composers set the modulation and then do a similar pattern with the expression. I usually set my expression for all instruments (except for certain occasions) the same same level. But then I find myself fading down (on expression) from like a set level of 30 down to 8 or 6 just to try and get that clean fade out. But that's not always fool proof.

Or is this simply a matter of reverbs?

I don't have OT but, if you use NIENTE there is no sound at the end...of the fader.

 

[MikeT99]

My own experience and workflow (not using any OT library, but a whole lot of others):
- I'm a BabylonWaves ArtConductor user, and I really appreciate the one track per instrument approach. For the one library I use sometimes that doesn't have this approach (Pacific Strings) I made a multi in Kontakt and created my expression map (I'm on Nuendo 12). I really really like this approach, many times I'll play, for example, CSS in the Marcato articulation, and then, having loaded the expression map, change everything.
- regarding CC's, I to tend to use dynamics and expression rather in tandem, although not linked - I've come to realize that mimics mostly the experience with real instruments (I'm a pro pianist, but have played extensively with orchestral musicians), even though Dynamics is almost always more wide in motion than expression - there's so much forte a violin section can go, but definitely the player will be at top dynamic playing sFz.
Sorry, can't help with that niente thing... just remember brass can't start or stop at niente, at least REAL brass

 

[Tom_D]

Regarding CC's, I to tend to use dynamics and expression rather in tandem, although not linked -

Same here.

I'm mostly riding the Mod wheel (CC1) and Expression (CC11) in parallel for sustained orchestral patches. CC1 gives you timbral changes while CC1 gives you volume changes.

However, I'm not specifically using Orchestral Tools, so I don't know how they are set up.

As a general suggestion, I would say

Use CC7 to set a static volume for the track
Use CC1 for Timbre changes
Use CC11 for dynamic volume changes. With CC11 at its lowest settings, you usually will be at silence.

 

[Onemandown]

My own experience and workflow (not using any OT library, but a whole lot of others):
- I'm a BabylonWaves ArtConductor user, and I really appreciate the one track per instrument approach. For the one library I use sometimes that doesn't have this approach (Pacific Strings) I made a multi in Kontakt and created my expression map (I'm on Nuendo 12). I really really like this approach, many times I'll play, for example, CSS in the Marcato articulation, and then, having loaded the expression map, change everything.
- regarding CC's, I to tend to use dynamics and expression rather in tandem, although not linked - I've come to realize that mimics mostly the experience with real instruments (I'm a pro pianist, but have played extensively with orchestral musicians), even though Dynamics is almost always more wide in motion than expression - there's so much forte a violin section can go, but definitely the player will be at top dynamic playing sFz.
Sorry, can't help with that niente thing... just remember brass can't start or stop at niente, at least REAL brass

Being loud is kind of our forte

 

[Per Boysen]

- regarding CC's, I to tend to use dynamics and expression rather in tandem, although not linked - I've come to realize that mimics mostly the experience with real instruments (I'm a pro pianist, but have played extensively with orchestral musicians), even though Dynamics is almost always more wide in motion than expression

I fully agree with your approach! But I also enjoy using a TEControl breath controller, since it gives me a finer level of control (I'm not so good with finger-faders). Nine times out of ten I blow the dynamics and if needed I can ride the expression fader with the hand I am not playing notes with. With a breath-controller you can also play twohanded and do the dynamics as part of the performance.

 

[MikeT99]

Ah!, I'd love to try one! Almost pulled the trigger once, simply got that pre-buyers-remorse regarding actually working for me. But I'm thinking more and more of it, specially as I invested in Swam and Vhorns, really eager to try. Is yours the first gen, or the second?

 

[jbuhler]

It can get complicated because most instruments are set up with a volume ramp on CC1 along with crossfades between layers so the layers match. There is then a span of crossfade that blurs any two adjacent dynamic layers. Some dislike this mixed sound and so some instruments opt to have a narrower span of crossfade, with a more abrupt or bumpy transition. With such instruments you might use expression for intradynamic layer swells.

Many do use expression and modwheel more or less in tandem, keeping them just separate enough to add a sense of subtle motion. Many also add vibrato to that when vibrato is on a crossfade. For strings some use either modwheel or expression to shape the phrase and the other to emulate the bow. I find that sometimes works, sometimes not.

For falling off to silence at the ends of phrases I tend to bring both modwheel and expression down but you have to be careful not to eliminate the release but to be able to pass that to whatever reverb tail you are using.

 

[Tom_D]

But I also enjoy using a TEControl breath controller,

I tried an EWI many years ago but for some reason it seems to be super sensitive even when I tried to set it to minimum sensitivity. As a result, it wouldn't take much for the CC to go from 1 to 127. Maybe it was just me.

I'm curious about the TEControl sensitivity adjustment. Can it be set that you have to have to obviously exert more in order to have finer control of the device?

I guess you would also need some MIDI transformer to double the TEC signal to CC1 and CC11 for the instruments that require the use of both, or do one after the other as you said.

Sorry for the sidestep

 

[Matt Godbey]

Using mostly Orchestral Tools here, I pretty much have to constantly ride both CC1 and CC11. There's no way to get around it.

In fact, I really use an alarming amount of CC11 to shape the sound.

But, basically, both of these bad boys are constantly moving.

Oh, and with OT, most of the time you don't have to go full on CC1=127. In fact, especially with OT brass, you're riding CC1 in the 50 to 70 range. Similar idea with woodwinds.

M.

 

[mbishop]

Can it be set that you have to have to obviously exert more in order to have finer control of the device?

Yes, it comes with software to set custom response curves.

If you want to echo modified CC data from CC 11 to CC 7 (or anything else), you can achieve that with the “Modifier” MIDI insert plugin (available in Logic). You can also use Logic’s Smart Controls to make a version of that that modifies the values on a curve. Or, I wrote a Logic script to help users do exactly that. https://github.com/michaeljbishop/music-production/tree/main/logic/scripter/CCRider

If you just want a quick route to Niente, you can use the “Niente” plugin from Grumpy Monkey.

Niente VST / AU / Multiscript

Handy Tools for Midi Composers

grumpymonkeyplugins.com

 

[Per Boysen]

Ah!, I'd love to try one! Almost pulled the trigger once, simply got that pre-buyers-remorse regarding actually working for me. But I'm thinking more and more of it, specially as I invested in Swam and Vhorns, really eager to try. Is yours the first gen, or the second?

Second generation. You can set up different MIDI CCs (or aftertouch/press) for blowing, biting, nodding, or tilting your head. The utility software lets you set up curves for all controllers, how hard you prefer to blow and bite. I only use blowing and biting, as the head moves made me feel dizzy when I tried it. And when needed I slap a MIDI data converter on the track rather than switching TEControl set-up for different libraries and synths. My fav way to play SWAM Solo instruments is with the TEC for dynamics and a Seaboard Rise2 for glissandi and vibrato.

I can not recommend a breath control too much.

 

[Per Boysen]

I tried an EWI many years ago but for some reason it seems to be super sensitive even when I tried to set it to minimum sensitivity. As a result, it wouldn't take much for the CC to go from 1 to 127. Maybe it was just me.

I too have an EWI and I always set the software instruments to pitch-bend range 2 up and 2 down.

I guess you would also need some MIDI transformer to double the TEC signal to CC1 and CC11 for the instruments that require the use of both, or do one after the other as you said.

Yes, that's true. But if you record into Logic, Bitwig, Cubase etc, these DAWs can have a MIDI transformer at each instrument track's input. So if one of your libraries has other default settings you can just fix it in advance for each track in your template.

 

[Fitz]

CC7 is like faders on a mix console, CC11 can be used to balance your tracks against one another if need but ride it as well for ‘expression’