Hannes_F
Traveller in boundlessness, at home in the Now
I'm shocked. These (USD 120,000) are costs per year?
If so then I wonder how many kids of musicians can expect their parents to fully pay them a music study. Makes me wonder.
Berklee College of Music (tuition)
- Thread starter Vision
- Start date
I'm shocked. These (USD 120,000) are costs per year?
If so then I wonder how many kids of musicians can expect their parents to fully pay them a music study. Makes me wonder.
AndreasWaldetoft
Member
In sweden you get payed to go to University...
That's how it should be here too, Andreas.
Hannes, I think $60K is per year. But it's still insane, and it's totally in line with other private colleges. The one my daughter goes to is the same (or it would be if we were paying list price, which wouldn't be a remote possibility).
Probably not more beneficial, but at least there was a thriving music industry to struggle to try and get into.
Something has to break. I don't see how this can continue.
Hannes, I think $60K is per year. But it's still insane, and it's totally in line with other private colleges. The one my daughter goes to is the same (or it would be if we were paying list price, which wouldn't be a remote possibility).
Probably not more beneficial, but at least there was a thriving music industry to struggle to try and get into.
Something has to break. I don't see how this can continue.
AlexandreSafi
Active Member
I was going to address this, but Vision, in your 2nd post, you practically answered your own question and even said exactly what i was going to say...
You said it best, it's 2015: Between the Amazons, M.Vertas (quite frankly he's that once-in-a-lifetime best-of-America Western-Zen kind of guy!), the "Macprovideos/Groove3s/Lyndas/CreativeLIVE" tutorials, you name it, it's all waiting for you!...
But the rules are always timeless: know yourself + you gotta desire pragmatism, seek specificity, specialize & commit!
You & your faculties are all the education you need!
As a student, i believe keeping a private door, or 1-on-1, has never been as valuable as now!
But really it's about knowing when Solitude vs. when Community can be your best ally & not a distraction to self-growth...
You should read Ralph Waldo Emerson's XIXth century essay on "Self-Reliance", i'm sure you'll love it!
Trust & Know thyself!
Best,
A.s.
You said it best, it's 2015: Between the Amazons, M.Vertas (quite frankly he's that once-in-a-lifetime best-of-America Western-Zen kind of guy!), the "Macprovideos/Groove3s/Lyndas/CreativeLIVE" tutorials, you name it, it's all waiting for you!...
But the rules are always timeless: know yourself + you gotta desire pragmatism, seek specificity, specialize & commit!
You & your faculties are all the education you need!
As a student, i believe keeping a private door, or 1-on-1, has never been as valuable as now!
But really it's about knowing when Solitude vs. when Community can be your best ally & not a distraction to self-growth...
You should read Ralph Waldo Emerson's XIXth century essay on "Self-Reliance", i'm sure you'll love it!
Trust & Know thyself!
Best,
A.s.
rgames
Collapsing the Wavefunction
Keep in mind that the best way to compare education costs is to look at *only* tuition and other fees (including books). You have to eat and have a place to sleep, so any costs incurred in so doing are going to be incurred regardless of whether or not you're getting a degree. So those costs really shouldn't be part of the cost of education. They're part of the cost of being a human being, educated or otherwise.
As far as ridiculous costs go - yes, college costs are absurd. I always say that a car's worth of debt at graduation is fine but a house's worth of debt is stupid regardless of profession. I would go so far as to say incurring any debt in pursuit of an arts degree is not a wise decision.
The costs are ridiculous because there's a perception within the US that college degrees are the best way to financial security, so there's a huge demand for them, a demand that is backed by lots of government subsidies. The colleges have every incentive to bury a student under a pile of debt - they have no skin in the game. Hence, we have too many people with college degrees (and many who never even get the degree) and associated worthless student debt.
The way to fix the problem is to get the colleges to underwrite the student loans, not the government. Then the colleges have a vested interest in providing degrees with good returns on investment - if the college provides worthless degrees then it won't get paid.
The truth is that, for 99% of Americans, managing debt has more effect on financial security than managing income. Student debt is a good place to start.
rgames
As far as ridiculous costs go - yes, college costs are absurd. I always say that a car's worth of debt at graduation is fine but a house's worth of debt is stupid regardless of profession. I would go so far as to say incurring any debt in pursuit of an arts degree is not a wise decision.
The costs are ridiculous because there's a perception within the US that college degrees are the best way to financial security, so there's a huge demand for them, a demand that is backed by lots of government subsidies. The colleges have every incentive to bury a student under a pile of debt - they have no skin in the game. Hence, we have too many people with college degrees (and many who never even get the degree) and associated worthless student debt.
The way to fix the problem is to get the colleges to underwrite the student loans, not the government. Then the colleges have a vested interest in providing degrees with good returns on investment - if the college provides worthless degrees then it won't get paid.
The truth is that, for 99% of Americans, managing debt has more effect on financial security than managing income. Student debt is a good place to start.
rgames
jaredcowing
Member
I have to agree with Richard on the tuition vs room & board point, although it's also true that alot of students don't have access to a (pertinent) university close enough that they can live at home while studying, and so they have to pay to live in a different area to get access to the university they want, at which point room & board really does become part of the expense of getting the degree. I think being able to find a school where you can live with friends or family and not pay rent (or not pay much) should be as important a factor when doing a college search as how expensive the tuition is.
Anyway, being someone who works at a public university that has cut expenses to the bone during the recession, I can say that not all universities have inflated tuition due just to limitless gov't loans. That's certainly the case for some schools (esp the for profits) but not all of them. I think a major factor in the exploding cost of higher ed is the rise of labor costs... alot of times schools will cut staff, pay their adjuncts peanuts and labor costs still go up. It might be related to the fact that education is a very service-based 'good' that cannot be easily automated (though MOOCs might change that). In our increasingly automated society (this is just my theory), the cost of services that still rely heavily on human labor inflate much faster than everything else because they're the only services that aren't becoming more efficient as quickly (healthcare is in a similar situation I think). Should our goal be to cut human beings out of all services as much as possible because we can't compete with the efficiency of machines, and we cost more? It's a fair question with no easy answer...
Anyway, being someone who works at a public university that has cut expenses to the bone during the recession, I can say that not all universities have inflated tuition due just to limitless gov't loans. That's certainly the case for some schools (esp the for profits) but not all of them. I think a major factor in the exploding cost of higher ed is the rise of labor costs... alot of times schools will cut staff, pay their adjuncts peanuts and labor costs still go up. It might be related to the fact that education is a very service-based 'good' that cannot be easily automated (though MOOCs might change that). In our increasingly automated society (this is just my theory), the cost of services that still rely heavily on human labor inflate much faster than everything else because they're the only services that aren't becoming more efficient as quickly (healthcare is in a similar situation I think). Should our goal be to cut human beings out of all services as much as possible because we can't compete with the efficiency of machines, and we cost more? It's a fair question with no easy answer...
Hannes_F
Traveller in boundlessness, at home in the Now
A quick check of numbers: The HMTM Hannover where I studied had a total budget for one year of EUR 23.2 Mil. EUR in 2013 for ca. 1350 students, that makes costs of EUR 17,200 (currently USD 18,700, used to be more) per year and student.
The student fees were in the range of 4 % of the total costs, the remaining funds came from other sources (mainly public funding).
So it seems that the USD 40k in Berklee might perhaps slightly be over the actual costs but it is the order of magnitude, plus probably a considerably percentage to compensate for financial aids like studentships.
The student fees were in the range of 4 % of the total costs, the remaining funds came from other sources (mainly public funding).
So it seems that the USD 40k in Berklee might perhaps slightly be over the actual costs but it is the order of magnitude, plus probably a considerably percentage to compensate for financial aids like studentships.
Daryl
Senior Member
I think it's only fair to remember that much of the money that students pay to universities is not for lessons and tutorials. There is a lot of infrastructure that needs to be paid for as well.
However, I think what irks a lot of people is that the full time lecturers and professors seem to think that teaching the students is getting in the way of their research, whereas the students don't think that they should be paying such huge sums just so that some professor can spend months researching Who Wants to be a Millionaire.
D
However, I think what irks a lot of people is that the full time lecturers and professors seem to think that teaching the students is getting in the way of their research, whereas the students don't think that they should be paying such huge sums just so that some professor can spend months researching Who Wants to be a Millionaire.
D
Hannes_F
Traveller in boundlessness, at home in the Now
Daryl: In a music College? Our professors were mostly instrument teachers, composition teachers, orchestra teachers, music history teachers. Very little research, especially compared to university.
I've seen both music college and university from inside, and while a uni professor had to lecture max. 8 hours a week and do research in the rest of time (and it was true that many thought that lecturing got into the way of what they wanted to do and were miserable as teachers) the typical workload of a music college professor was to give individual instrument training to a class of 25 students, typically 1.5 hours of training per student and week. But that is only how it is (or was) here.
I've seen both music college and university from inside, and while a uni professor had to lecture max. 8 hours a week and do research in the rest of time (and it was true that many thought that lecturing got into the way of what they wanted to do and were miserable as teachers) the typical workload of a music college professor was to give individual instrument training to a class of 25 students, typically 1.5 hours of training per student and week. But that is only how it is (or was) here.
Daniel James
o_0
lol $65k for a diploma no one will ever ask to see with no stable potential work options once you graduate? No thanks haha, give me interviews and youtube any day
-DJ
-DJ
EastWest Lurker
Senior Member
Depends on:
1. What you study. There are not a lot of places other than a college/conservatory where you can have (theoretically, at least) good teachers teach you harmony, counterpoint, composition, instrumentation, all while giving you a chance to participate in a choir, orchestra, or band.
2. Do you want to actually be good or just be able to make music that is au courant and get paid?
When I went to Boston Conservatory of Music in the late '60's, it was $1,500 a year, which seemed like a lot then. but I could raise it by singing and playing in the summer on Cape Cod.
Now it is $41,000.
1. What you study. There are not a lot of places other than a college/conservatory where you can have (theoretically, at least) good teachers teach you harmony, counterpoint, composition, instrumentation, all while giving you a chance to participate in a choir, orchestra, or band.
2. Do you want to actually be good or just be able to make music that is au courant and get paid?
When I went to Boston Conservatory of Music in the late '60's, it was $1,500 a year, which seemed like a lot then. but I could raise it by singing and playing in the summer on Cape Cod.
Now it is $41,000.
Daryl
Senior Member
Yes, I also have experience of both college and university (and have taught at both) and would broadly agree that music college teachers put in more hours and a lot of it is individual lessons, so can understand the cost, up to a point. I also seem to remember that music colleges have longer terms than most Unis.
D
antoniopandrade
Senior Member
As a recent Berklee graduate I can only speak of my experience.
Even though private colleges in general are incredibly overpriced, the experience you get at Berklee is unique in the world. I would never have been exposed to the things that made me want to do what I'm doing today if I hadn't gone to Berklee, it really opened my eyes and my world to new possibilities.
That being said, other people have different ways of getting to the same place, and hey man, if your road is youtube videos and you just happen to live close to a studio, or a concert hall, or you were raised by world class musicians, all the power to you, that's what makes the world interesting, those small differences that make up an individual.
I will say that the Berklee community (even though not always helped by Berklee itself) is powerful, and in the job market it does make a difference (not a huge difference, but in an industry this competitive, any help is welcome). All in all, I don't my time there was a waste of time or money, not in the slightest.
Even though private colleges in general are incredibly overpriced, the experience you get at Berklee is unique in the world. I would never have been exposed to the things that made me want to do what I'm doing today if I hadn't gone to Berklee, it really opened my eyes and my world to new possibilities.
That being said, other people have different ways of getting to the same place, and hey man, if your road is youtube videos and you just happen to live close to a studio, or a concert hall, or you were raised by world class musicians, all the power to you, that's what makes the world interesting, those small differences that make up an individual.
I will say that the Berklee community (even though not always helped by Berklee itself) is powerful, and in the job market it does make a difference (not a huge difference, but in an industry this competitive, any help is welcome). All in all, I don't my time there was a waste of time or money, not in the slightest.
Sing it brutha.
gsilbers
Part of Pulsesetter-Sounds.com
i am seening some comments about berklee not being worth it and private tutor or youtube channels will teach as much.
one thing id like to stress is that berklee degree is a bachelor degree accepted as any bachelor degree from any college.
why is this important? well, how many jobs are out there for music and how much do poeple make in music? very little, right? we all know that.
folks who pay for berklee (aka parents) want to know that if it doesnt work out in music their kid can still apply for a masters in any olther field or be accepted in jobs where a minimun of a bachelor degree is acceptable. this can be in any filed. most places with entry level jobs that require a bachelor doesnt have to have the exact bachelor of that job.
in LA i have seen several ex berklee guys who are not working in music. they work in other fields. still do the music thing on the side or for fun.
trying to see the workd outside music sometimes is difficult for some but there is one.
one thing id like to stress is that berklee degree is a bachelor degree accepted as any bachelor degree from any college.
why is this important? well, how many jobs are out there for music and how much do poeple make in music? very little, right? we all know that.
folks who pay for berklee (aka parents) want to know that if it doesnt work out in music their kid can still apply for a masters in any olther field or be accepted in jobs where a minimun of a bachelor degree is acceptable. this can be in any filed. most places with entry level jobs that require a bachelor doesnt have to have the exact bachelor of that job.
in LA i have seen several ex berklee guys who are not working in music. they work in other fields. still do the music thing on the side or for fun.
trying to see the workd outside music sometimes is difficult for some but there is one.
Minsky
Active Member
+ 1 on that. I'm doing Orchestration 2 now and it's excellent.
JJP
Did you know Mike Greene owns a llama? 🦙
I think it’s important for all of us to remember that access to information is not the same as education. Otherwise we would get rid of schools and only have libraries and the internet. There is a lot to be learned online, however, it is in not the same as an education from a college or university.
There is also the confusion of a well-rounded education with job training. Those things are also not the same. Job training is only part of a college degree education. That is why the degree has value beyond your particular field, as mentioned by others here.
I work with musicians who have a wide variety of backgrounds. Some are very successful. Others are beginners or people who have had limited career “success”. (We could have a whole other discussion on what constitutes success.) One common thing I see, is that those who are self-taught are more likely to have gaps in their knowledge, or have misunderstandings about fundamentals in their field. This does not mean they are unable to function or be successful in their field. It means they face difficulties which people who had a proper education do not have. For example, writing for a musical ensemble without having the experience of performing in one does leave gaps in your knowledge. There are some things you learn through experience, and a formal education provides some of that experience.
There are some people who are very skilled and experienced who have very few gaps in their knowledge and skills even without a formal education (college or private teacher). I find them to be somewhat rare.
College education in the USA has become prohibitively expensive for many people. This is to our shame and hurts the development of our country. We have stopped valuing education, and stopped funding our university system in the way we did in previous decades. This changes calculation of the value of a college education versus the cost. However, it does not mean that the value of education can be replaced by simple access to information.
There is also the confusion of a well-rounded education with job training. Those things are also not the same. Job training is only part of a college degree education. That is why the degree has value beyond your particular field, as mentioned by others here.
I work with musicians who have a wide variety of backgrounds. Some are very successful. Others are beginners or people who have had limited career “success”. (We could have a whole other discussion on what constitutes success.) One common thing I see, is that those who are self-taught are more likely to have gaps in their knowledge, or have misunderstandings about fundamentals in their field. This does not mean they are unable to function or be successful in their field. It means they face difficulties which people who had a proper education do not have. For example, writing for a musical ensemble without having the experience of performing in one does leave gaps in your knowledge. There are some things you learn through experience, and a formal education provides some of that experience.
There are some people who are very skilled and experienced who have very few gaps in their knowledge and skills even without a formal education (college or private teacher). I find them to be somewhat rare.
College education in the USA has become prohibitively expensive for many people. This is to our shame and hurts the development of our country. We have stopped valuing education, and stopped funding our university system in the way we did in previous decades. This changes calculation of the value of a college education versus the cost. However, it does not mean that the value of education can be replaced by simple access to information.
