As I wrote, the gain on the Millennia Media is only 40dB on the tube setting (I think it's a little more with the solid-state path).
Sorry to be nitpicky!
Analog outboard gear is a lifetime investment.
Audio interface upgrade opinions sought
- Thread starter wayne_rowley
- Start date
Sorry to be nitpicky!
Sounds awesome! That's the sort of unit I'd go for if electronics wasn't a second hobby for me. I roll my own preamps and built my tube channels to host octal pentodes, octal dual triodes, 9-pin dual triodes, or 7-pin pentodes. So, they always have a lot of empty sockets...looks kinda weird. The pentodes include a triode switch. They all have switchable cathode bypasses for bass cut and switchable passive +3dB shelf selectable for 1K or 10K cutoff. Two of the channels also have 1/4" in at 1M Ohm that bypass the input transformers. Two use semi-vintage TRW transformers and one uses modern Hammond 850N. All have 20dB pad and phase reversal switches, and of course phantom.
Have about 100 variants of tubes that work at the bias points I have set...vintage, semi-vintage and Soviet era. Narrowed it to six I really like. Surprise finds are the GE 5654W mil-spec pentode (found that one about 12 years ago and apparently others did too, lol, now there are chinese fakes all over ebay "for the audiophile"). The other is the Soviet era 6SL7 dual triode equivalent. I have a small pile of Telefunken 12AX7 I got new when they were still available thru music stores (yeah, I'm really old), not my fav for preamps. Decent, but other choices I liked better. In fact I rewired the 9-pin sockets to host Raytheon/Western 5755 instead. Do like the Tele a lot in a Marshall though. jmo of course.
On the solid state side I rolled an INA103 based two channel, basically a Grace clone, sounds fantastic. Fairly easy project for the beginner roll-your-own-er.
Pier
Senior Member
Yeah.
The room, mic placement, the instrument, the player... all have a much bigger impact in the final result.
I don't disagree. For something like rock especially, imo if you can't make a good recording with a Behringer UMC202HD, a $100 Eurorack mixer and a handfull of 57s, high end gear isn't going to change a thing. And even given a quality performance and engineering choices, the equipment difference is maybe 1%? Or 2%? A top act needs that to compete. And a studio needs it for credibility when selling their services. A hobbyist like me? Its just something fun to play with because it sounds really good and was fun to build. All that said, a 57 is a different animal thru a high end pre and given the expense we'd all hope so.
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The mic itself makes a bigger difference than the preamp too. And yet I'd still rather use a better preamp than a worse one.
Another way of putting it: there are lots of subtle things you can do (and buy ) to improve the quality of your productions, but of course they're totally swamped by things like what you're recording in the first place!
) to improve the quality of your productions, but of course they're totally swamped by things like what you're recording in the first place!
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wayne_rowley
Active Member
The 476P would have been my preference, except the two line inputs are more useful to me, and the Phantom Power switch is all 4 inputs or none!
kgdrum
“Making a mess & calling it Art is where it’s at!”
I use a RME UCX which is a wonderful interface which happens to have two pretty good preamps but I also use a Great River ME-1NV preamp which gives me a Neve style pre thats definitely better than the preamps in the UCX.
For my modest needs this gives me some nice preamp options.
For my modest needs this gives me some nice preamp options.
Øivind
Audio Ikons
Ah right. The all or nothing Phantom Power is a bit of a strange decision by UA on the 476P.
Pier
Senior Member
A great river preamp is definitely not modest lol
sostenuto
AKA _ doubtingtom37
Went with trusty Scarlett 18i8 for more required In(s) /Out(s).
Previously chose dedicated Mic /Headphone Pre /Amps and still waaay less cost than comparable RME options.
Hasten to acknowledge enviable position RME continues to maintain across marketplace.
Serious Home Studio demands do not seem to make notable cost increase justifiable.
Open to consider opposing perspectives ......
Previously chose dedicated Mic /Headphone Pre /Amps and still waaay less cost than comparable RME options.
Hasten to acknowledge enviable position RME continues to maintain across marketplace.
Serious Home Studio demands do not seem to make notable cost increase justifiable.
Open to consider opposing perspectives ......
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proggermusic
Keyboards and Woodwinds, Jazz-Funk-Ambient?
No problem! When we're talking about the final few percentage points in gauging audio recording quality, we doom ourselves to a nitpicking prison of our own design... And we're all complicit...As I wrote, the gain on the Millennia Media is only 40dB on the tube setting (I think it's a little more with the solid-state path).
Sorry to be nitpicky!
And I certainly agree with you overall! I have the privilege of access to some of the very best recording chains at my friends' studios in the area, from Neve and API to Coil, Electric and Co, Collins, Spectra-Sonics (not the software company...)... etc, along with original Pultecs and the like. And it's all a joy to record with.
A couple things I've noticed over the years, though, for my own workflow...
1) When I have to work fast, which is frequently the case, digital recall becomes VERY important. My RME unit is a godsend for this. (I realized that stepped gain controls on outboard units can compensate for this to a degree.)
2) The mics that I work with are generally quite sensitive and require relatively little gain (these days, either a U87ai or Austrian OC818, normally). As a result, even "colorful" preamps end up imparting very little color onto their signal, unless I pad the mic and drive the pre intentionally... which I don't usually feel like doing because of point (1) – much safer to do things like that digitally in case I need to revise things later.
This being VIC, it's worth pointing out that digital processing has gotten SO VERY GOOD over the past few years that the audible gap between, say, a Neve 1073 unit and a good-quality 1073 emulation has shrunk almost to nonexistence. Hardware units are fun, but digital flexibility has taken top priority for me, and I'm pleased at how negligible the auditory compromise has become, in that regard.
SupremeFist
Senior Member
Actually I bought the M6 specifically for its headphone amp, which has excellently low output impedance for driving low-impedance headphones such as the 32Ω VSX. (Check out Julian Krause on YouTube for why this is important.) Power is not an issue at all (my listening level is around 11 o'clock); it sounds as good as the Atom headphone amp I previously used with my Audient interface.
Øivind
Audio Ikons
I am far from knowledgeable in this area, so I am mostly going on googled info and some second hand experience. Taketh thy grains of salt with the words cometh hereafter.
A friend of mine just bought the MOTU M4 and a pair of AKG K702, and he needs to turn it all the way to 3 o'clock to get a normal listening level.
I found this strange because the K702 are just 62 Ohms, so I did some googling and I found this
I don't have any information on if AudioScienceReview are reliable or not.
The MOTU M4 can deliver 24 mW @ 33 Ohm, according to this review, which they rate as poor and 18mW @ 300 Ohm, which they rate as OK. I am guessing that this also applies to the other devices in the M family unless they are built with different components.
So while they seem to adequately be able to power the the Sennheiser HD 600 (~300 Ohm), they don't seem to be that good for cans like the AKG K702 (62 Ohm) and similar. This seems to be because of the lack of mW in the lower Ohms. I believe it depends on a mix between the headphone sensitivity and the Ohm?
In comparison, the UA Volts do 84 mW @ 32 Ohm and 22 mW @ 300.
Again, this is far from my area of expertise, but it does seem to confirm what my friend and some other people are experiencing.
Edit: and of course lots of headphones are probably powered perfectly on the M4. I just get a little frustrated that we still have to look for headphones that match the audio interface or vise versa in 2023. The headphone out on a MacBook Air M2 for instance can power just about anything.
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wayne_rowley
Active Member
I went with the Audient ID44 Mk II in the end. Many thanks for the thoughts and advice.
Wayne
Wayne
Pier
Senior Member
I'm assuming 3 o clock is like 75% of the gain?
Not sure what your friend considers a normal listening level but that seems extremely loud for the k702 which are considered very sensitive.
Right now I'm using the M4 with the Fostex T50RP which are 50ohm and infamous for their low sensitivity. Usually at around 25-30% sometimes I might push it as high as 40-45% but no more.
Øivind
Audio Ikons
Yes that % seems about right, and also yes, very much possible he listens to very high volume in general, tho he was very surprised about the amount knob turning he had to do, so even if he listens loudly, 75% still seems excessive for normal listening.
But during my googling I found similar stories regarding the M4 and K702, even VI-C post about the same thing (tho it claims the sound is boxy). And during the search escapade I had, there where more people having the same issue, so at least at that point there seemed to be good enough evidence for it when counting the second hand info of known and unknown people and a seemingly analytical review that states the mW in low Ohm is poor.
Maybe the K702 are just very hard to power, or, of the cases I have found, people listening really loud. But the Volts have almost 4 times the mW in low Ohms than the MOTU M4. That would indicate that either the Volts very overpowered or the MOTU M's aren't great in that specific area, especially when taking into account the review and various posts.
Luckily one can usually test both the audio interface and headphones and send them back if they don't work together. So that is probably a good idea to do.
I might have jumped the gun when I said that it has a weak headphone adapter in lower Ohms, and I should probably stick to personal experiences when stating things so blatantly.
I have added an edit to my original post so to try and not make it seem like a factual statement.
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SupremeFist
Senior Member
I would not (did not) choose a Volt for critical monitoring on low-impedance headphones because the output impedance of the headphone amp on those interfaces is measured at 10Ω. That will alter the frequency balance into 32Ω headphones. Power only matters if you literally can't turn it up as loud as you desire. (Your friend should turn his cans down while he still can preserve his hearing.)
SupremeFist
Senior Member
Audients are great overall, I'm sure you'll love it! (Only reason I didn't get a 44 to replace my old id14 is because I wanted the best possible signal into low-impedance headphones specifically, and the Audients have slightly too-high headphone output impedance for that case.)
Pier
Senior Member
Hey Steven do you have more info on this? Maybe some literature that explains this phenomenon?
