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Arbitrary Decisions by Moderator

Nico5 said:
I have the feeling that you and others are using every rhetorical weapon in your immense and extremely impressive arsenal to side-track my original plea against too much chattiness and needless repetition by changing the topic to “welcoming”. I totally understand that you and others in this thread would prefer this forum to remain more chatty.

That’s fine and I have no more right to input than anyone. Much less than many others. My right to input is actually zero.

But the chattiness makes this forum a lot less interesting for users like me, who are seeking a higher bar of knowledge and experience exchange.

I also see that I’ve become a lone voice in this thread. Since I don’t enjoy playing old-man-shaking-fist-at-the-sky, I‘ll better fade away again.
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I didn’t see this until now, @Nico5

I’m sorry that my post about welcoming wasn’t written better as to prevent misunderstandings. I never intended to sidetrack the discussion or say that your p.o.v. isn’t legit to have.

It sucks whenever someone feels disallowed to express their opinion and therefore withdraws :sad:
 
Nico5 said:
I don't think moderation is a problem here. Quite the opposite: Mike's patience, sensitivity and also thick skin, while simultaneously navigating between relationships and principles is (imho) a very effective, rare and admirable combination.

However, I think on the spectrum between chat and knowledge base, VI leans quite a bit more heavily towards the chat side. A lot of the same ground is covered over and over again. And that's why I'm not participating much anymore.

However, when there's new ground to cover, this is one of the best places I know for interesting and sometimes insightful dialog from a relatively wide range of music maker perspectives.

I just wish it was easier to find those raisins in the large VI pie. Just blocking forums and/or threads hasn't proven to be a working solution for me.
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I don’t see it as an either or proposition. Most of the helpful, knowledge sharing posts come from the same members who are “chatty.”
 
Bee_Abney said:
I think you've also overstated the importance your contributions have had to the contributions of others. They aren't necessarily responding to you; they are just doing their own thing.
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Snarf said:
Nah, I feel you. Low quality and repetitive posts are what makes veterans of the forum leave. That being said, I agree with @Bee_Abney that those other comments were not necessarily in direct response to you.
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Henrik B. Jensen said:
I’m sorry that my post about welcoming wasn’t written better as to prevent misunderstandings. I never intended to sidetrack the discussion or say that your p.o.v. isn’t legit to have.
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Just wanted to quickly acknowledge some of the responses to my posts:

It's indeed entirely possible that my points were more being ignored (or "ghosted" as the kids say these days?) rather than strawmanned in those subsequent posts. I can accept that as a better explanation. -- But it also confirms, that I should just fade away.

Trash Panda said:
Most of the helpful, knowledge sharing posts come from the same members who are “chatty.”
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Yes indeed, if the less chatty members are leaving, that would indeed seem to be a logical consequence.


That that being said - the question, if the forum should be less chatty and more advanced and nuanced knowledge sharing isn't for me to decide or to even fight for.

It may very well be that VI control turning into a more of a chat room is actually a commercially more valuable proposition for advertisers and Mike than it being a more advanced knowledge exchange.
 
Nico5 said:
Just wanted to quickly acknowledge some of the responses to my posts:

It's indeed entirely possible that my points were more being ignored (or "ghosted" as the kids say these days?) rather than strawmanned in those subsequent posts. I can accept that as a better explanation. -- But it also confirms, that I should just fade away.


Yes indeed, if the less chatty members are leaving, that would indeed seem to be a logical consequence.


That that being said - the question, if the forum should be less chatty and more advanced and nuanced knowledge sharing isn't for me to decide or to even fight for.

It may very well be that VI control turning into a more of a chat room is actually a commercially more valuable proposition for advertisers and Mike than it being a more advanced knowledge exchange.
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Although I don't mind and participate in the chatty posts, I actually appreciate the sharing of information as that is how I learn a lot. i would hate for it to go away.
 
Nico5 said:
Just wanted to quickly acknowledge some of the responses to my posts:

It's indeed entirely possible that my points were more being ignored (or "ghosted" as the kids say these days?) rather than strawmanned in those subsequent posts. I can accept that as a better explanation. -- But it also confirms, that I should just fade away.


Yes indeed, if the less chatty members are leaving, that would indeed seem to be a logical consequence.


That that being said - the question, if the forum should be less chatty and more advanced and nuanced knowledge sharing isn't for me to decide or to even fight for.

It may very well be that VI control turning into a more of a chat room is actually a commercially more valuable proposition for advertisers and Mike than it being a more advanced knowledge exchange.
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I respect your point of view. And I apologise for the clumsy wording of my post. I am grateful for you taking the time to share your point of view and value your contributions highly.
 
Henrik B. Jensen said:
When you say the forum is getting more chatty, are you thinking of the many speculative posts for example? What else?
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speculative posts are one of the symptoms. Others include:
  • high degree of repetitiveness of questions/answers/opinions
  • over-prioritizing on making everyone feel welcome while de-emphasizing expectations of prior effort by music making and/or forum newbies
  • endless threads that go on for years, making search for pre-existing answers difficult/impossible
  • posting without reading prior posts in threads
  • too much side tracking of original thread topics
  • much repetition of "my DAW is the best" in threads about other DAWs
  • much repetition of "you should really be using my preferred operating system" in threads about another operating system
  • too many posts like:
    • "OMG - this library/reverb/soft-synth is soooo amazing - I must immediately buy it".
    • "I bought it, yay me!"
  • and just generally too much fluff posting
All of those things resulting in it being difficult to find the signal of advanced knowledge or most relevant news or uniquely interesting opinion in an ever increasing avalanche of (albeit often charming) noise. Lo-fi is nice, but if it's so lo-fi that you can hardly hear the notes, it becomes more of a noise machine that assists sleeping, rather than a music station:

Mike Greene said:
2. VI-Control is busier than I would like, and getting busier. You have to scan over a hundred thread titles just to see what's new in the last 24 hours. That's too many, since it results in a lot of worthwhile topics getting lost in the mix. We are most definitely *not* starved for content. (Or as one over-posting newcomer put it when I told him to slow the f down, "I thought the more discourse the better." Yikes!)
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Nico5 said:
  • endless threads that go on for years, making search for pre-existing answers difficult/impossible
  • posting without reading prior posts in threads
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I don't know if it's possible for the forum software to enable searching within specific threads, but the fact that it's currently not possible has certainly frustrated me in the past when I've tried looking for info that someone surely must already have posted.
 
SupremeFist said:
I don't know if it's possible for the forum software to enable searching within specific threads, but the fact that it's currently not possible has certainly frustrated me in the past when I've tried looking for info that someone surely must already have posted.
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It is possible to search a specific thread if you are currently in that thread.

I suspect that recently posted threads don't show up in more general searches, though, as a number of times I checked to see if some news has been posted, can't find it, and then start a thread for something that is already on the board. But I could have just used poor search terms.
 
Nico5 said:
It may very well be that VI control turning into a more of a chat room is actually a commercially more valuable proposition for advertisers and Mike than it being a more advanced knowledge exchange.
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No need to worry about that happening. Almost no forum decisions are made with advertisers in mind. (Attracting developer participation, yes, but ad dollars, no.) Our house is paid off, this studio is paid off, our son's out of college and employed, and we have a dollar or two in the bank, so at this point, I can afford to run Realitone, this forum, and even my occasional composing gig in such a way that I feel good about them. (It's the upside of getting older, where fewer f***'s need to be given. ;) )

Nico5 said:
speculative posts are one of the symptoms. Others include:
  • high degree of repetitiveness of questions/answers/opinions
  • over-prioritizing on making everyone feel welcome while de-emphasizing expectations of prior effort by music making and/or forum newbies
  • endless threads that go on for years, making search for pre-existing answers difficult/impossible
  • posting without reading prior posts in threads
  • too much side tracking of original thread topics
  • much repetition of "my DAW is the best" in threads about other DAWs
  • much repetition of "you should really be using my preferred operating system" in threads about another operating system
  • too many posts like:
    • "OMG - this library/reverb/soft-synth is soooo amazing - I must immediately buy it".
    • "I bought it, yay me!"
  • and just generally too much fluff posting
Click to expand...

I have a rather lengthy post I'm writing which addresses a lot of the points made here. The challenge is you can't write hard and fast "rules," since there are worthwhile exceptions to almost any I might write. We don't want zero speculative threads, for instance, but it's impossible to define when it would be cool and when it wouldn't. As with the "New Members" thread, though, the thread will be something I can point to when I ask someone to slow down. (A lot of the over-posting issues are a fairly small number of people.)

We'll see how it goes. One unavoidable reality, though, is that the forum can't be much slower than it is now. Scanning the latest topics list, almost all are worthwhile, so it's not like we can get the Latest Posts feed down to just 30 topics, or even 70 topics updated in any given 24 hours. I think it's always going to be at least a hundred.

It's just that there are certain inside jokes and other reoccurring things that get annoying when it's the same people ("cliques," if you will) that keep derailing or sidetracking. Which again, the occasional sidetrack can be great, so I don't want to disallow them entirely (we don't want to turn this into the no-fun-zone), but I'm optimistic we can have fewer cat pictures, or fewer general musing threads from that same handful of (bored?) people who keep posting them.
 
Nico5 said:
speculative posts are one of the symptoms. Others include:
  • high degree of repetitiveness of questions/answers/opinions
  • over-prioritizing on making everyone feel welcome while de-emphasizing expectations of prior effort by music making and/or forum newbies
  • endless threads that go on for years, making search for pre-existing answers difficult/impossible
  • posting without reading prior posts in threads
  • too much side tracking of original thread topics
  • much repetition of "my DAW is the best" in threads about other DAWs
  • much repetition of "you should really be using my preferred operating system" in threads about another operating system
  • too many posts like:
    • "OMG - this library/reverb/soft-synth is soooo amazing - I must immediately buy it".
    • "I bought it, yay me!"
  • and just generally too much fluff posting
All of those things resulting in it being difficult to find the signal of advanced knowledge or most relevant news or uniquely interesting opinion in an ever increasing avalanche of (albeit often charming) noise. Lo-fi is nice, but if it's so lo-fi that you can hardly hear the notes, it becomes more of a noise machine that assists sleeping, rather than a music station:
Click to expand...
Just to add to that list (while we're here), another posting behaviour that has increased with and contributed to the noise, is when members take it upon themselves to "announce" something before the developer or the company gets the chance.
Posts that link a video but say nothing of it. Posts that contain a screenshot of an Instagram story but say nothing about it.
New threads created that copy paste the contents of a marketing email the OP just received - usually within 15 seconds of having received the email - yet saying nothing else about it.
And these days, when the marketing-savvy businesses are releasing weekly videos, regular social posts, and frequent newsletters, boy does that noise add up.
The beauty of newsletters and YouTube, is that you get to choose to be subscribed to that stuff. We're not really afforded that same luxury here.

Then there's another post type - which shares some similarities to the previous one - which I think of as the "Let me google that for you" posts:
Answers to questions simply based on things they've read or googled, often resulting in unhelpful, vague, and at times misleading responses that resemble a search engine result.
Q: "Looking for a good plugin that does this..."
A: "Here is a list of every plugin I could find online that purports to do this"
Q: ".... great"

Part of the pickle with this, is that many of these posts are created with the intention of being helpful. There might also be a driving factor of "being first", or getting a few likes in some cases, or simply to chat.
But there's always grey area around whether actions should be taken against somebody who is genuinely well-intentioned, especially when there are others who appear to appreciate those posts too.
 
At this point, I'm bewildered. I don't know how to be other than conversational. If I start a thread it is with a view to doing something for others or asking for specific advice. The same goes for most posts. To be helpful, to be nice, to amuse; or to help me with something.

I guess if I were to approach this board purely in terms of what helps me, I'd just stop posting. There are exceptions to that, where I have directly appealed for help. But now I feel like I'd just be bothering people with concerns they've read before.

You can't please everyone all the time; but who wants to be a source of pointless frustration for people doing better work than you?

I am being dramatic, I know. But, well, I'm a musician - what did you expect?

EDIT TO ADD: Wow, that was one heck of a self-pitying post! Don't worry about that; I am genuinely interested in finding a positive way forwards.
 
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I think it really is just a need for a clear delineation between a section of the forum for topical discussion and a section just for chitchat about the same subject.

For instance, you could split Sample Talk into "Sample Library Technical Discussion" and "Sample Library Chat" and then all of the social stuff goes to the chat sub forum where it doesn't show up at the top of the feed.

People who enjoy only focused discussion can now keep track of the feed for relevant topics and people who want to get to page 1000 on a release speculation thread can post in "Sample Library Chat" to their heart's content.

This also avoids sending everything that bloats up the feed to the "Drama Zone" :).
 
I can't say I've had any negative reactions to how this forum operates. I enjoy a lot of what's here and find things of interest on a weekly basis, and it's easy to skip over other stuff. I have some particular interests that I've refrained from creating threads on because I don't see signs of much interest from others in those topics.

I suppose that's part of coming into an already established forum. My first instinct is to try and find out what the already accepted focus is so as not to gate crash someone else's party. Some time after first coming here I read the explanation on the home page about the original establishment and purpose of the forum.

This introduction includes the following: "Historically, VI has been a composer-based community." And, "V.I. Control is also a community of high end sample library and virtual instrument developers who are also musicians."

I have kept this in the back of my mind while also noting that forums can evolve. Before having read this background I had already been perusing the site and the main impression I gained was that it was a forum about music technology. I didn't get the spontaneous impression that it was mainly about composing. That still seems to be the case.

With this background I can understand why some original or long standing members might feel dissatisfied or have even left, yet I still see threads about composing, and people asking for feedback on their compositional efforts. I suppose it's a matter of balance and evolution. To sum up, I enjoy coming to VI-C and find it friendly and helpful. It is a good way to stay current on new or updated products, and of course, sales! But it is also a good place to be able to ask technical questions, which I have found invaluable on occasion.
 
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Bee_Abney said:
At this point, I'm bewildered. I don't know how to be other than conversational. If I start a thread it is with a view to doing something for others or asking for specific advice. The same goes for most posts. To be helpful, to be nice, to amuse; or to help me with something.

I guess if I were to approach this board purely in terms of what helps me, I'd just stop posting. There are exceptions to that, where I have directly appealed for help. But now I feel like I'd just be bothering people with concerns they've read before.

You can't please everyone all the time; but who wants to be a source of pointless frustration for people doing better work than you?

I am being dramatic, I know. But, well, I'm a musician - what did you expect?

EDIT TO ADD: Wow, that was one heck of a self-pitying post! Don't worry about that; I am genuinely interested in finding a positive way forwards.
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You're overthinking this. ;) Personally, I like your posts and your conversational tone, and I'm guessing most people agree. (Although a certain group of guys often respond to your posts with little asides and flirty jokes and whatnot, which we could probably do without, but that's not really your fault.)

Which is why I probably shouldn't make generalizations before telling specific people "this is about you" and then everyone else can know it's not about them.
 
Mike Greene said:
You're overthinking this. ;) Personally, I like your posts and your conversational tone, and I'm guessing most people agree. (Although a certain group of guys often respond to your posts with little asides and flirty jokes and whatnot, which we could probably do without, but that's not really your fault.)

Which is why I probably shouldn't make generalizations before telling specific people "this is about you" and then everyone else can know it's not about them.
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Don't worry, I didn't take it personally! But, yes, I was overthinking it. I live and breath self-doubt. Oh, and the new avatar is very temporary and just a joke regarding the comment about cat pictures!

I'm very open to this discussion and the reining in of chattiness even though that goes against my personal disposition; it is something that is adversely affecting some of the other folks here.

(And I've never knowingly flirted with anyone - it's a bit of blank spot in my understanding of social behaviour!)
 
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There's a lot of talk in this thread about what should be included and talked about on the forum, and in particular the sort of content that annoys and folk would rather not see.

I get it. But I also need to stress - and I hope Mike and the rest of the mods realise this - that VIC is literally the only place that some of us (possibly a majority?) get to talk about this stuff.

And I really do mean that. I have a nice life: Family, children, friends. But not one single "real person" in my life knows what the hell I'm on about when I talk about a legato transition. When I'm excited about a new release, there's no-one to share that excitement with over a beer. When BBCSO came along, there wasn't a person in my "real" life who understood the importance of that release to a British bloke, raised on the BBC with an interest in tinkering with virtual instruments.

If you're involved in the industry, live in London or LA and get to discuss this stuff outside of forums, I'm very envious. I can't think of any other profession or hobby where the only place some of us can discuss our excitement about dropping £500 on a new toy is on a forum to a bunch of avatars.

And it's why a get a little antsy when the terms of the conversation are discussed. If the enthusiasm of hype thread wears you down, for example, please remember that for some of us it's the only space where we can actually talk about this shit.

Yes, there are other online spaces. But none quite like this. Just wanted to put this out there. A x
 
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