Anthology II: Adagio general discussion

[T-LeffoH]

The new Adagio Violas were free to Anthology owners for 48 hours. Confusing I know , but I've got it now. I heard the new cellos and basses were going to be free to Anthology owners as well??

As far as I understand the communication from 8Dio, the upgrades for Anthology users are free even after 48 hours. Per the email:

"This coupon will expire in 48 hours.

This coupon is unique to you - do not share this code.

If you wish to receive the update after the 48 hours is up, please get in touch with support for your free upgrade."
​

I'm speculating they may have had just one internal script/process setup to spit out emails and time-dependent discount codes to users based on what products they currently owned, figuring most would hastily redeem.

With Anthology owners being the only exception to the discount cost timeframe, probably figured they could respond to those who missed the window via individual requests later...or maybe benefit from their not reading the fine print and purchasing anyway.

 

[Morning Coffee]

As far as I understand the communication from 8Dio, the upgrades for Anthology users are free even after 48 hours. Per the email:

"This coupon will expire in 48 hours.

This coupon is unique to you - do not share this code.

If you wish to receive the update after the 48 hours is up, please get in touch with support for your free upgrade."
​

I'm speculating they may have had just one internal script/process setup to spit out emails and time-dependent discount codes to users based on what products they currently owned, figuring most would hastily redeem.

With Anthology owners being the only exception to the discount cost timeframe, probably figured they could respond to those who missed the window via individual requests later...or maybe benefit from their not reading the fine print and purchasing anyway.

I think they probably use the 48 hours time frame on personal codes because some people might share their code to others. As they are a business, I think that is fair enough.

 

[teclark7]

Hoping someone can help me with a couple of queries.

I have the agitato grandiose ensembles (violins, viola and cello), the agitato sordino ensemble/ sections, adagietto and adagio viola. (I don’t have the agitato legato arpeggio nor do i have Anthology).

I have two questions I am hoping someone can answer:

1. I can get the new adagio viola for $28 but not sure what I would be getting. I understand I have both legatos in agitato and old adagio. Is it just a better user interface?

2. What am I getting by buying the new adagio violin and cello for $48 at intro price given that I have agitato for both of them and some nice patches in the agitato sordino as well as in adagietto? I am aware of a few bad (noisy) notes that presumably may have been fixed but I am not sure whether $48 each is worth it for a few fixes and a new UI.

 

[667]

You're obviously not sharing the whole conversation here.

Man there's no mystery about it: 8Dio chat support told me I have to pay 4 times to upgrade all 4 volumes (violin/viola/cello/bass).

I think for people who have been waiting a long time for bug fixes, people who spent $1000+ and supported your company and allowed you to build the business you now have, they deserve better than a $20 coupon.

But reading between the lines, if this is really 99% Agitato with some Adagio thrown in, I'm not even interested at $8. I want the original promise of Adagio delivered. Guess we'll never see it.

 

[pderbidge]

Man there's no mystery about it: 8Dio chat support told me I have to pay 4 times to upgrade all 4 volumes (violin/viola/cello/bass).

I think for people who have been waiting a long time for bug fixes, people who spent $1000+ and supported your company and allowed you to build the business you now have, they deserve better than a $20 coupon.

But reading between the lines, if this is really 99% Agitato with some Adagio thrown in, I'm not even interested at $8. I want the original promise of Adagio delivered. Guess we'll never see it.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I think this answers the mystery question though. If you own all the adagios it's still not a one time fee of $28 like it is for Anthology owners who get a one time $8 fee. That's too bad. I agree it should be better than that. It's like I posted earlier though that 8Dio is not alone in making these poor decisions and I understand why you wouldn't be interested. If the interface doesn't entice you then the content certainly won't since you have a lot more content in the original Adagio.

 

[667]

Maybe my perspective on it is just warped due to frustration with how Adagio was released/supported for what was a pretty expensive library at the time (on par with LASS or EW HS).

At $48 I'm sure it's a great deal for anyone looking sampled strings.

 

[chocobitz825]

To start now implying that Agitato is just Adagio done right is nonsense. Although it is true that so little of the Adagio legato remains in Anthology/the new Adagio that I suppose you could argue that this is an admission that Adagio is rubbish and should just be thrown away and replaced with Agitato.

Didn't the video explain that Anthology was essentially the "best of" collection of Adagio and Agitato?

I mean I know many of us hear are confused, but I cant help but feel its because of false expectations. People read Adagio and think its an upgrade directly to adagio, but all of these are listed as "A Part of the Anthology Series"....meaning Anthology is the core of this product, not Adagio or Agitato. It makes sense that this is Anthology improved. It also makes sense that this is Anthology, broken up instead of one large collection.

I think maybe we have to look at this as two parts. One its an update to Anthology...and at the same time, they also happened to retire Adagio. Two separate actions somewhat unrelated to each other. I mean..Adagio is old...eventually it needed to be put down.

I dont know. I have criticisms with 8DIO, but their marketing language has been the least of my concerns. I've always had a problem with seeing coupons come hours or days after products are announced.

 

[ism]

Didn't the video explain that Anthology was essentially the "best of" collection of Adagio and Agitato?

The video stated - for marketing purposes - that this is a ‘best of’. In does not attempt explain the sense in which it can be considered a best of.

Of course, you can interpret this as a literal truth: if you take Adagio and Agitato and throw away most of Adagio, then I guess you can interpret this, in a very literal, technical sense, as a “best of”

But while the execution of Agitato is clearly better than Adagio, I personally prefer the kind of emotional lines the the full Adagio is capable of over the very different kinds of lines Agitato excellent at.

But does anyone here consider the rather lacklustre Legato II of Anthology/ Adagio 2.0 as in any meaningful sense the "best of" Adagio?

The tuneing is definitely better, and the playability is better - but only in the sense that most of the expressiveness has been removed, so there not much left to actually play.

But even Adagietto (notwithstanding the tuning) is much superior to legato II.

So the marketing video can laude this a ‘best of’ all it wants, but it doesn’t change the fact that most of what I consider as the best in Adagio (and even adagietto) has simply been expunged.

Nothing wrong with selling Adagio 2.0 as a “Adagio-mostly-expunged” cut down version of course. But it doesn’t mean we need to accept marketing-happy-talk euphemisms like ‘update’ and ‘best of’ uncritically.

Of course, if your don’t like Adagio, and are happy to replace it with Agitato legatos instead, the ‘best of’ make makes sense. Just that this isn’t where i’m coming from.

 

[chocobitz825]

The video stated - for marketing purposes - that this is a ‘best of’. In does not attempt explain the sense in which it can be considered a best of.

Of course, you can interpret this as a literal truth: if you take Adagio and Agitato and throw away most of Adagio, then I guess you can interpret this, in a very literal, technical sense, as a “best of”

But while the execution of Agitato is clearly better than Adagio, I personally prefer the kind of emotional lines the the full Adagio is capable of over the very different kinds of lines Agitato excellent at.

But does anyone here consider the rather lacklustre Legato II of Anthology/ Adagio 2.0 as in any meaningful sense the "best of" Adagio?

The tuneing is definitely better, and the playability is better - but only in the sense that most of the expressiveness has been removed, so there not much left to actually play.

But even Adagietto (notwithstanding the tuning) is much superior to legato II.

So the marketing video can laude this a ‘best of’ all it wants, but it doesn’t change the fact that most of what I consider as the best in Adagio (and even adagietto) has simply been expunged.

Nothing wrong with seller Adagio 2.0 as a “Adagio-mostly-expunged” cut down version of course. But it doesn’t mean we need to accept marketing-happy-talk euphemisms like ‘update’ and ‘best of’ uncritically.

Of course, if your don’t like Adagio, and are happy to replace it with Agitato legatos instead, the ‘best of’ make makes sense. Just that this isn’t where i’m coming from.

I get that. Everyone has their tastes for what works and what doesnt, but Anthology was the "best of" from what they had made with Adagio and Agitato. Whether we agree if its the best or not, is preference, but not a failure of marketing. "Best of" is not a promise, its an opinion. They feel from a technical standpoint, its the best of what they had. How they decided that, i dont know, but no matter which way they made this library, someone would step up and say "I disagree! this could be better to fit my personal preferences!". So again, I entirely understand your preference, but I cant agree that this is somehow misleading marketing.

They already stated that this library doesnt replace adagio, but should be considered as something separate. I've considered legato 2 to be a fast legato compared to the more expressive legato I. in my workflow thats totally fine because I dont have to do anything to get a workable fast legato. I dont need to adjust velocities or CC to get it, I just keyswitch to II, and go. This is better to me than having an instance of Adagio open, and an instance of Agitato open and trying to work the two libraries at the same time. Does it sound better than the older library? thats irreverent to me personally because if I wanted to use the sound of the older library, I'll use the older library.

What I cant get is this idea that somehow 8DIO marketing has screwed over people who would prefer Adagio. If you preferred adagio, use adagio and dont upgrade. Or if you upgrade, use both as necessary. If the argument is, now people can no longer buy the "superior" adagio, then I'd have to say, why should 8DIO go out of its way to appeal to people who didn't buy a product that came out in 2012? Especially after they'd had numerous flash sales. If people didn't buy it over the last 7 years, why wait for them to buy it now? This upgrade is optional and the quality of its benefits are subjective. If it doesnt fit your expectations, I understand. I just dont know how they could ever cater marketing to guarantee that everyone is going to get EXACTLY what they want.

 

[Dominik Raab]

If people didn't buy it over the last 7 years, why wait for them to buy it now?

I'm not disagreeing with you on your whole post at all, but this section seems weird to me. There are people who're just getting started and would maybe like to buy the original Adagio. There are hobbyist with a certain budget, and maybe they considered but haven't taken the plunge yet, telling themselves: "This year around Christmas, I'm definitely getting Adagio!" Not everyone was in the market for sample libraries for as long as Adagio has existed, not everyone had the means to buy it.

I'm not saying this is a major faux-pas or that 8dio are doing the wrong thing here. Still, the "It was available long enough, your fault if you didn't pick it up" argument (hyperbole; you didn't say it like that) doesn't really fly with me.

 

[ism]

I get that. Everyone has their tastes for what works and what doesnt, but Anthology was the "best of" from what they had made with Adagio and Agitato. Whether we agree if its the best or not, is preference, but not a failure of marketing. "Best of" is not a promise, its an opinion. They feel from a technical standpoint, its the best of what they had. How they decided that, i dont know, but no matter which way they made this library, someone would step up and say "I disagree! this could be better to fit my personal preferences!". So again, I entirely understand your preference, but I cant agree that this is somehow misleading marketing.

They already stated that this library doesnt replace adagio, but should be considered as something separate. I've considered legato 2 to be a fast legato compared to the more expressive legato I. in my workflow thats totally fine because I dont have to do anything to get a workable fast legato. I dont need to adjust velocities or CC to get it, I just keyswitch to II, and go. This is better to me than having an instance of Adagio open, and an instance of Agitato open and trying to work the two libraries at the same time. Does it sound better than the older library? thats irreverent to me personally because if I wanted to use the sound of the older library, I'll use the older library.

What I cant get is this idea that somehow 8DIO marketing has screwed over people who would prefer Adagio. If you preferred adagio, use adagio and dont upgrade. Or if you upgrade, use both as necessary. If the argument is, now people can no longer buy the "superior" adagio, then I'd have to say, why should 8DIO go out of its way to appeal to people who didn't buy a product that came out in 2012? Especially after they'd had numerous flash sales. If people didn't buy it over the last 7 years, why wait for them to buy it now? This upgrade is optional and the quality of its benefits are subjective. If it doesnt fit your expectations, I understand. I just dont know how they could ever cater marketing to guarantee that everyone is going to get EXACTLY what they want.

I appreciate the insight into your workflow, and why you appreciate this.

And its great that the literal truth ('update', 'best of') the marketing happens to coincide with the way you use the library..

But the workflow you describe is that opposite of mine. Adagio has always been the library I like for slower lines, and some of the slow legatos are very beautiful and comprise what of which I most value about Adagio - especially in the violas, which tuning issues aside, can be quite gorgeous in Adagio in a way that is now completely lost in Adagio 2.0.


So reducing Adagio to the single Legato II for use as a fast legato (not even keeping the legatos of Adagietto) ... well, again, its great that this constitutes the 'best of' Adagio in your workflow. But it's the exact opposite of mine, and the opposite of how 8dio has always marketed Adagio. And even contradicts the implied meaning of the word 'Adagio'

And while I take your point of the subjectivity of 'best of', but I'd suggest that with the observation that the workflow that you describe is the exception rather that the rule.

Anyway, I think we've both made our points adequately. Glad you're enjoying Adagio 2.0.

 

[chocobitz825]

I'm not disagreeing with you on your whole post at all, but this section seems weird to me. There are people who're just getting started and would maybe like to buy the original Adagio. There are hobbyist with a certain budget, and maybe they considered but haven't taken the plunge yet, telling themselves: "This year around Christmas, I'm definitely getting Adagio!" Not everyone was in the market for sample libraries for as long as Adagio has existed, not everyone had the means to buy it.

I'm not saying this is a major faux-pas or that 8dio are doing the wrong thing here. Still, the "It was available long enough, your fault if you didn't pick it up" argument (hyperbole; you didn't say it like that) doesn't really fly with me.

I totally acknowledge the possibility that people maybe just didn't know until now, or maybe they were waiting for the next sale. I only got Adagio last year, and on sale for some of them. I actually only bought Adagio Violins because it was the last thing I didn't have, it hadn't gone on sale, and I figured I should just complete the set, because "who knows?"

I dont get the necessity or even incentive for the developer to wait for people who only buy on sale. I get that the costs are high, and some people just are waiting for that right opportunity, but thats not a guaranteed condition. If you get it on sale, you're lucky! If you had to buy it full price, thats the way it goes. If while you were waiting for the next sale, the product is discontinued, thats an unfortunate result of the gamble taken. There are many libraries I missed out on that were discontinued before I ever got a shot at them, but thats not a failure of the developer. Its just bad timing. I dont think 8DIO would have done themselves any favors by keeping such an outdated and cumbersome (from current perspective) library in their product line. If its the one thing you bought, and the first thing you bought from 8DIO, how much faith would you have in their brand, if you compared their old Adagio interface to CSS? or any other brand that uses smarter legato? They could potentially turn off just as many new customers by keeping outdated stuff up. for example, the only reason I even stay with East West is because of the composer cloud, but their engine is so old and obnoxious that they're often the last library I ever want to pull up and I'm constantly considering ending my subscription.

I appreciate the insight into your workflow, and why you appreciate this.

And its great that the literal truth ('update', 'best of') the marketing happens to coincide with the way you use the library..

But the workflow you describe is that opposite of mine. Adagio has always been the library I like for slower lines, and some of the slow legatos are very beautiful and comprise what of which I most value about Adagio - especially in the violas, which tuning issues aside, can be quite gorgeous in Adagio in a way that is now completely lost in Adagio 2.0.


So reducing Adagio to the single Legato II for use as a fast legato (not even keeping the legatos of Adagietto) ... well, again, its great that this constitutes the 'best of' Adagio in your workflow. But it's the exact opposite of mine, and the opposite of how 8dio has always marketed Adagio. And even contradicts the implied meaning of the word 'Adagio'

And while I take your point of the subjectivity of 'best of', but I'd suggest that with the observation that the workflow that you describe is the exception rather that the rule.

Anyway, I think we've both made our points adequately. Glad your enjoying Adagio 2.0.

Really this whole thing reminds me of Orchestral Tools Woodwinds Revive.

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/confused-with-ot-woodwinds-revive.66749/
When I picked up OT Woodwinds, I ended up with a main collection 3.0 and a Legacy 2.2 version in the package. I guess they rerecorded some instruments with more mics, but not all, so they just threw everything in. So now, as a new user coming into this i have BWW Revive: 90 GB compressed, and BWW Legacy: 67 GB compressed on my drive, and I rarely go into the legacy folder because the mic setups are different and I havent really needed it, but eliminating that 67GBs of data is complicated because the samples appear to be grouped all in together. I accept that. For whatever reason, they felt it was necessary to keep both versions, and make the woodwinds set more expensive for new adopters. I dont agree with it, it doesn't work for my workflow, and I'd like 67 GBs back, but it is how the product is, so I just have to accept it. I don't feel like OT is a lesser company for doing what they did, its just how they approached a similar issue. We agree to disagree on workflows and what's important, and I'm sure we're not the only ones.

OT's marketing around this library:
Berlin Woodwinds is the industry standard when it comes to sampled woodwind collections.
The product that started our journey at the Teldex Scoring Stage in 2012, now received a huge update called Berlin Woodwinds Revive.
Most instruments have been newly recorded and, best of all, the whole original Berlin Woodwinds from 2012 with additional tweaks is included. This gives you as a composer double the number of instruments for ultimate flexibility and possibilities for doubling.
The purchase of Berlin Woodwinds consists of two separate collections that are available together as one big collection: Berlin Woodwinds Revive, containing all-new instruments, as well as Berlin Woodwinds Legacy, featuring the classic Berlin Woodwinds Instruments from 2012.


(My personal note:
"This gives you as a composer double the number of instruments for ultimate flexibility and possibilities for doubling."
Not really sure how this works with two versions of completely different mic positions, but thats marketing)

 

[ism]

Really this whole thing reminds me of Orchestral Tools Woodwinds Revive.

I think we'll simply have to agree that we perceive the dynamics of marketing semiotics very differently.

All the best.

 

[chocobitz825]

I think we'll simply have to agree that we perceive the dynamics of marketing semiotics very differently.

All the best.

fair enough. good day.

 

[Reid Rosefelt]

Back in December 2017, @Cory Pelizzari made this video, which compares Anthology to Adagio, before the release of Century. And his recommendation at the time was to just get the original Adagio Violas and Adagio Cellos plus Agitato Grandiose Violins.



Based on this video I purchased the violas when they went on sale and was waiting for a good sale on the cellos (now $118) I'm probably going to upgrade the violas for $28 and am thinking about getting the new cellos for $48.

What are your thoughts? How have things changed since then? Do you agree with Cory? Are the new Agitato Violins better than the Agitato Grandiose Violins Cory recommended, which are still available for $44? I also have the Agitato Sordino Strings, which I really like. Are they duplicated in this new series?

@Cory Pelizzari do you care to chime in?

 

[chocobitz825]

Back in December 2017, @Cory Pelizzari made this video, which compares Anthology to Adagio, before the release of Century. And his recommendation at the time was to just get the original Adagio Violas and Adagio Cellos plus Agitato Grandiose Violins.



Based on this video I purchased the violas when they went on sale and was waiting for a good sale on the cellos (now $118) I'm probably going to upgrade the violas for $28 and will think about getting the new cellos for $48.

What are your thoughts? How have things changed since then? Do you agree with Cory? Are the new Agitato Violins better than the Agitato Grandiose Violins Cory recommended, which are still available for $44? I also have the Agitato Sordino Strings, which I really like. Are they duplicated in this new series?

@Cory Pelizzari do you care to chime in?

His video is why I skipped on the violins initially. I just bought them down the line to complete the set. At least in my mind these new ones sound better and are more functional but that’s subjective. I would be interested to see what Cory has to say.

 

[Land of Missing Parts]

Based on this video I purchased the violas when they went on sale and was waiting for a good sale on the cellos (now $118) I'm probably going to upgrade the violas for $28 and am thinking about getting the new cellos for $48.

What are your thoughts?

I'm in the same boat, as I have old Adagio Violas from the flash sale. And I got the Sordinos from a flash sale last year. As best as I can tell, here's what's going on in plain English.

New Adagio is:
-1 legato patch from old Adagio (which had a mess of different ones)
-1 legato patch from Agitato Grandiose (EDIT: With 3 legato types, velocity switches them)
-Sordinos from Agitato Sordino
-The most useful of the other articulations, namely shorts and a subset of dynamic bowings/arcs
-Newer interface which, unlike Anthology, doesn't take forever to load
-"Remastered" which is a fuzzy suggestion that they improved tuning and panning issues. Opinions from users on whether there is anything substantively different seem to vary. I'm not expecting much. (EDIT: Tuning fixes yes, minimal or no panning fixes).

Of those, I'm only interested in the 1 Agitato Grandiose legato. I don't care about the interface (I've modded my own Adagio multis, made my own articulation sets, and don't really even need to open Kontakt to use it. They load easy too.)

So to me it's a question of paying $28 for 1 legato and tuning fixes. And since this is a solo instrument, a divisi/chamber size, and a full section size, all in one, it's actually 3 legatos. (EDIT: Each with 3 types, velocity switches them)

 

[Dominik Raab]

I dont think 8DIO would have done themselves any favors by keeping such an outdated and cumbersome (from current perspective) library in their product line. If its the one thing you bought, and the first thing you bought from 8DIO, how much faith would you have in their brand, if you compared their old Adagio interface to CSS?

Fair point! Actually, one of the first 8DIO libraries I had was Anthology, and I wasn't thrilled (panning issues). Funny how those things work out... :D

the only reason I even stay with East West is because of the composer cloud, but their engine is so old and obnoxious that they're often the last library I ever want to pull up and I'm constantly considering ending my subscription.

I think I'm your exact opposite. 80% of my template, at least, is East West stuff, and I prefer PLAY over Kontakt (mainly because I learnt how to use VSTs on PLAY, so maybe it's just what I'm used to). I've only recently started to explore other options, mainly complementing my EW stuff instead of replacing it.

 

[ism]

-1 legato from old Adagio (which had a mess of different ones)
-1 legato from Agitato Grandiose

Possibly helpful:

- The origional Adagio has many legato patches, each with only a single type of legato. (Though there were some cumbersome multis that I was unable to even install that attempted to combine them)

- Agitato only ever had 1 legato patch - but with 3 type of legato triggered by velocity. (Which was a significant improvement in playability over the Adagio approach)


- Adagietto combined 3 Adagio legatos into a single legato patch, mirroring the playability of Agitato, only it expunges all the expressive arks of the original legato.

- Anthology/Adagio 2.0 Legato I, is virtually identical to Agitatio legato with the expressive arcs expunged.

- Anthology/Adagio 2.0 legato II has a single legato patch, but apparently with only a single type of legato. So it fixes some of the tuning issues (though not the panning), but otherwise expunges not only the expressive arcs of Adagio, but also the multiple legato type of Adagietto.

 

[Dominik Raab]

So it fixes some of the tuning issues (though not the panning), but otherwise it not only expunges not only the expressive arcs of Adagio, but also the multiple legato type of Adagietto.

As someone who only owns Anthology and the new Adagio, the insane number of legato styles is the only thing I really wish I had. Mainly in it for the feathered spics and the wonderful sordinos.