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Ai - how do library developers feel about it?

Type two: you've got people that hear some app make a little music and they just extrapolate that to mean every music related company will be a dinosaur in a matter of months. The free market just doesn't work that way. The only way something exists, in the long run, is if someone will pay for it.
Spotify started around 2008 and since then they have lost around 5 billion dollars . The disruption of the music industry happened relatively quickly but Spotify have yet to profit from it and recoup their monumental losses . So how long of a run ?
 
So I am a developer, and once I was even paid to be a "futurist" - predicting the next big thing for tech giants (I said it was the internet - they said I was clueless - go figure..). So AI will improve over the next 10 years. Right now its a massively over invested mess. So yes there's a bubble in there - and some venture capitalists are going to get burned, and then there's going to be the usual round of fire sales and carpet bagging. But as the internet bubble of 2000 showed us - that doesn't mean the tech. will just go away...

As others have said the first area AI will likely attract is the low-end consumers of the output from some of my customers. So Pond5-ish things. It wont stop people making Pond5-ish output - nothing will stop people making music and playing musical instruments - just the market for the results is likely to shrink. This shrinkage will continue to creep upwards through the "quality layers" for want of a better term, but it wont be an overnight thing, and we(my customers and I) will be forced upwards in the quality hierarchy - its a classic model (Hyundai used to make rubbish cheap cars - then the Chinese arrived so now they have to make better quality products). Will AI turn the industry upside down? No. and even if yes - not overnight. Im likely to be gone by the time it breaks the current models badly enough to make it something I cant make a living at...but Im not young now so - YMMV.
 
I would like to hear why you think A.I., researched since 1956, is a bubble?
Cory Doctorow does a good explainer of why he believes AI is a bubble

 
Cory Doctorow does a good explainer of why he believes AI is a bubble

I didn’t read past ‘classic tech bubble’, sorry. There is nothing classic about an exponentially-growing tech that can do most of what humans do, and that keeps updating (soon on its own).
 
I didn’t read past ‘classic tech bubble’, sorry. There is nothing classic about an exponentially-growing tech that can do most of what humans do, and that keeps updating (soon on its own).

LOL Without reading it you are actually restating what the classic bubble claim is i.e. your 'exponentially growing' claim. THAT is the classic tech bubble claim, as you do not get more VC without achieving exponential growth. And permanent exponential growth is impossible, hence the bubble.


Another major issue with the AI bubble, which Doctorow discusses, is that it consumes vast amounts of energy, which someone eventually has to pay for. People generating zany images & strange sounding music with it for free does not even cover the costs. It's a loss leader. The short film I saw, which claimed to be the first AI generated short film, had a shooting ratio of 300:1 (!??) and required masses of VFX to achieve even basic continuity. Hardly a sustainable business... but chasing that exponential growth will keep the VF funds flowing.

I'd just suggest reading it again, especially before committing funds & attention to AI. As it would also be wise to plan on what value you will retain after the bubble pops.... Permanent exponential growth is impossible.
 
LOL Without reading it you are actually restating what the classic bubble claim is i.e. your 'exponentially growing' claim. THAT is the classic tech bubble claim, as you do not get more VC without achieving exponential growth. And permanent exponential growth is impossible, hence the bubble.


Another major issue with the AI bubble, which Doctorow discusses, is that it consumes vast amounts of energy, which someone eventually has to pay for. People generating zany images & strange sounding music with it for free does not even cover the costs. It's a loss leader. The short film I saw, which claimed to be the first AI generated short film, had a shooting ratio of 300:1 (!??) and required masses of VFX to achieve even basic continuity. Hardly a sustainable business... but chasing that exponential growth will keep the VF funds flowing.

I'd just suggest reading it again, especially before committing funds & attention to AI. As it would also be wise to plan on what value you will retain after the bubble pops.... Permanent exponential growth is impossible.
The more interesting claims of the article involve residuals that remain (or dissipate) after the bubble bursts. While I'm no fan of crypto currency, one thing that bubble did leave behind when it burst was an excess of GPUs, which AI quickly acquired and put into service. So even crypto was potentially not as empty as Doctorow made out, depending on how the AI bubble plays out... And though he seems mostly pessimistic about the AI bubble (rightly so), he is not as dismissive of it as crypto, and maybe for good reasons, as there does seem to be at the core of AI more potential social good than with crypto.
 
Cory Doctorow does a good explainer of why he believes AI is a bubble

From Doctorow's blog post:

"Do the potential paying customers for these large models add up to enough money to keep the servers on? That’s the 13 trillion dollar question, and the answer is the difference between WorldCom and Enron, or dotcoms and cryptocurrency.

Though I don’t have a certain answer to this question, I am skeptical. AI decision support is potentially valuable to practitioners. Accountants might value an AI tool’s ability to draft a tax return. Radiologists might value the AI’s guess about whether an X-ray suggests a cancerous mass. But with AIs’ tendency to “hallucinate” and confabulate, there’s an increasing recognition that these AI judgments require a “human in the loop” to carefully review their judgments."

Alembic claims to have solved the hallucination problem:


Also, Doctorow cherry-picks examples like radiology where he expects that human labor would not be reduced, while ignoring key examples like programming which already seem to be showing substantial productivity gains. His anti-AI bias appears to be muddling his thinking.
 
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Also, Doctorow cherry-picks examples like radiology where he expects that human labor would not be reduced, while ignoring key examples like programming which already seem to be showing substantial productivity gains. His anti-AI bias appears to be muddling his thinking.
I think Doctorow's attitude towards AI is a lot more differentiated. This blog post of his makes that much more clear - he thinks AI controlled by humans is really positive, but humans being subserviant to AI is dystopian:

 
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I just found this and loved it!

I had to go look up whether House of the Rising Sun was still in copyright, because I've only ever seen Udio let you recreate public domain music. Well damn, House of the Rising Sun is actually public domain! Apparently it dates back to the 1900's! I wonder if there's not more covers because people just assume The Animals wrote it.


In any case, I figured this was particularly relevant to knowing the capabilities.

If you're not impressed, I feel bad for your denial.
When we get the tools to use to generate out our own music it's going to make sample libraries something we use to mock up our tracks (ironic) and use the AI to render it, much like we'd have had a real orchestra record it. There will be a place for sample libraries, and after that a whole new technology for sound designers will emerge that will need creative musical people to create.
 
The short film I saw, which claimed to be the first AI generated short film, had a shooting ratio of 300:1 (!??)
You're going to have to be more specific. AI improves so fast, if you saw it 12 or even 6 months ago it's already out of date. The power consumption point isn't a good argument because they've already made plenty of advances in making these things vastly more efficient. OpenAI's Music AI Jukebox in 2020 used to take hours to render. Now tracks render in seconds. They've made LLM's vastly more efficient also. It will be on your phone, running ON your phone. The one running in the cloud will be exponentially more advanced. If you aren't keeping up with what's going on and assuming it's like previous advances, you're going to be shocked how much more has improved since the last time you looked. Open AI's Sora came out of nowhere, we had no idea it could be that good this fast. The best AI Video before Sora was really RunwayML, and any other was comparable to that. This is like going from Midjourney Verison 3 jumping straight to Version 6. I'd say it's even better than 6. It also looks like the best image model, even beating than their own DallE3 (which btw they nerfed'd for the public, their demo's were better).

The thing about the bubble is the tech is improving so fast that i don't think it will be like a classic bubble. Bubbles happens because the hype outpaces the tech development. I don't see that happening, not in the usual way anyway, we've never seen tech improve so fast so exponentially. Surely at some point the failed companies will have to lose, but will this cause a AI bear market in total where even the big boys like Microsoft, OpenAI, etc all dump like the .com? I don't think so. But I think it will dump in some general way, but more in a consolidation form, if that makes sense

If it does, I don't think it will happen for a while anyway and if anything if a major crash happens it will not be because of AI being the bubble but some other factor. War, EMP, solar flare, some other major crisis like Covid was (of course with Covid that only made everything pump like mad after that sudden dump) .

AI Companies are literally nerfing their own technology, they're literally holding back what they have intentionally making it shitter so they can censor it and restrict it's abilities. They can add all kinds of emergent functionality without even any other advances.
 
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I just found this and loved it!

I had to go look up whether House of the Rising Sun was still in copyright, because I've only ever seen Udio let you recreate public domain music. Well damn, House of the Rising Sun is actually public domain! Apparently it dates back to the 1900's! I wonder if there's not more covers because people just assume The Animals wrote it.


In any case, I figured this was particularly relevant to knowing the capabilities.

If you're not impressed, I feel bad for your denial.
When we get the tools to use to generate out our own music it's going to make sample libraries something we use to mock up our tracks (ironic) and use the AI to render it, much like we'd have had a real orchestra record it. There will be a place for sample libraries, and after that a whole new technology for sound designers will emerge that will need creative musical people to create.
I don't think anyone is saying that they won't be able to make the technology work. This demo is impressive in lots of ways.

The question is, and what a lot of folks who are bullish on AI seem continue to ignore, what happens when the VC money runs out, who's going pay for this technology to run. You're pretending like it isn't ungodly expensive to create and mantain. There must be a product at the end of the day that many people will pay good money for. And that money has to be multiples more than it costs to run or the companies go bye-bye.

Now, this is how I see it playing out until the technology becomes cheaper and cheaper and then any/every company will have some AI engineers on staff and it will be integrated in every product everywhere. And then even lowly developers like me and my tiny sample library company will have access to the tools and will improve our libraries with it. This vision of a 'changing of the guard' and all the sample library companies get swapped out for AI instrument companies is just silly. The tech is too expensive and the profits are too small now. Once it's cheap enough to develop and run these tools/models on the new Macbook Pro, not accessing some massive server farm in the desert via the cloud; actually running on your new PC, that's when it truly permeates everything.

So, I don't think anyone can deny that eventually AI will be integrated, in some way, in all the products we use. The dollars and cents just don't work for it to happen overnight, in a market as small as ours.
 
Some of you are understanding part of what is happening. Most of you don’t have a clue how fast this is developing in ALL fields, music or otherwise.

You have to think 2-3 papers down the line. Seek up reliable sources, make up your opinion, revise it and adapt. And do it all over again.

Whether you like it or not this change will be like all the times before a new technology gets high enough on the s-curve. You adapt or you perish.
 
"Better were the days when mastery of seas came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. You all know this to be true!" - Captain Barbossa
 
Odd, my post in this thread was deleted without explanation, looks like some others were too?
Are the AI overlords already in control?

Anyway to restate my point, as a sample size of 1 person who has bought and used a ton of sample based instruments & algorithmic plugins, playing with the latest crop of online generative AI tools completely obliterated my desire to invest further in those products, both because I see very compelling reasons that the kind of work I do will be obsolete quite soon, and if not, the next generation of composer tools will have to be completely transformed in order to remain competitive,

That may or may not be of interest to any developers watching this thread.

The latest VSL user survey has a few questions specifically about AI so I would imagine it's a concern.
Most of the posts deleted from this thread have been so for reasons explained in post 17. (This one likely will be deleted as well.)
 
I don't think anyone is saying that they won't be able to make the technology work. This demo is impressive in lots of ways.

The question is, and what a lot of folks who are bullish on AI seem continue to ignore, what happens when the VC money runs out, who's going pay for this technology to run. You're pretending like it isn't ungodly expensive to create and mantain. There must be a product at the end of the day that many people will pay good money for. And that money has to be multiples more than it costs to run or the companies go bye-bye.

Now, this is how I see it playing out until the technology becomes cheaper and cheaper and then any/every company will have some AI engineers on staff and it will be integrated in every product everywhere. And then even lowly developers like me and my tiny sample library company will have access to the tools and will improve our libraries with it. This vision of a 'changing of the guard' and all the sample library companies get swapped out for AI instrument companies is just silly. The tech is too expensive and the profits are too small now. Once it's cheap enough to develop and run these tools/models on the new Macbook Pro, not accessing some massive server farm in the desert via the cloud; actually running on your new PC, that's when it truly permeates everything.

So, I don't think anyone can deny that eventually AI will be integrated, in some way, in all the products we use. The dollars and cents just don't work for it to happen overnight, in a market as small as ours.
I think you underestimate how much money this will generate, and how much better AI will get and be capable of generating even more money. Everytime someone has said “well it can’t do this and that” tends to be proven wrong in about 6 months or less sometimes.

We’re so used to technology taking 5 -10 years to develop to do what AI does in 6 months. Look at video games for example. Look at basic video games like Pong or space invaders to where we are now. That took decades. Now find out when Midjourney started, and look at the evolution of quality from version 1-6. Look at those first AI videos like the Will Smith eating spaghetti one and then look at Sora and see long that took.

And who cares if some companies can’t keep up and have to shut down?

That will merely mean that another company is doing it better.

If it takes so much money to generate content then if they’re not taking in enough it means it’s not being used, which means it will be cheaper.

The amount of money used to make sample libraries that are only sold once is insane. How are they still making money? How much have Spitfire spent on recording expensive orchestras over and over in expensive recording studios over and over and over and over again? Why would anyone think there’s enough money in the industry for that? In a sea of other really good companies doing the same thing no less. The business model for AI is often paying subscriptions or for credits, so they get constant streams of cash that only stops if there’s no one around to use their GPU’s that cost the money.

What might be more likely is that companies like Udio will have to compete with open source technology you’ll be able to either run on your own system, like stable diffusion, or third parties that will be able to far more easily compete with the Udio’s and Suno’s.

As for AI in general. Same deal applies, only it’s even more obvious they’re not going anywhere. Technology hasn’t ever had the speed of development that AI has, and it’s only going to get faster because we’re developing better AI chips and designing AI super intelligence that can help solve the problems that would have slowed us down.

OpenAI alone disrupts everything. Robotics is only just starting, which also involves AI.

There’s too much development and value created to just run out of customers. I really don’t think you know what is actually going on, what the potential is, what’s being worked on, and what uses there’s going to be and how rapidly expanding those use cases (and so customers) that will open up. The fact that they’re literally restricting/dumbing down their models actually ate to the public should tell you a lot.

And Amazon was able to survive for how long without even making a profit? Over a decade maybe? And from the ground up. We’re talking about companies that are already the biggest in the world with a ton of cash, they’d be able to survive for a LOT longer.
 
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You're going to have to be more specific.

sure


Interesting, none of the soundtrack is AI.


The aspect that is interesting to me is how AI only ever achieves a part of the work, and requires a human to check the work and correct it. As with that article, it would not consistently generate a yellow ballon even when prompted to. As Cory Doctorow mentions in that bubble article, the same is true for many uses eg AI driving that requires 0.75 humans to 'make it safe' or writers who are fired & rehired to edit & correct AI generated text. An AI hallucinating stuff for a short film is low stakes & just burns more time than if they had shot it normally. But when human life is at stake, its a different story.
 
sure


Interesting, none of the soundtrack is AI.


The aspect that is interesting to me is how AI only ever achieves a part of the work, and requires a human to check the work and correct it. As with that article, it would not consistently generate a yellow ballon even when prompted to. As Cory Doctorow mentions in that bubble article, the same is true for many uses eg AI driving that requires 0.75 humans to 'make it safe' or writers who are fired & rehired to edit & correct AI generated text. An AI hallucinating stuff for a short film is low stakes & just burns more time than if they had shot it normally. But when human life is at stake, its a different story.
You're really showing how little you have interacted with this technology if any of this is a surprise to you.
 
You're really showing how little you have interacted with this technology if any of this is a surprise to you.

Indeed, but I am illustrating with a very practical example of how futile the "creative" process is with such technology, using a short film that was lauded as the first AI short film. Except it wasn't because the AI output is so inconsistent it took more work than normal filmmaking of the same idea.

Even as the results get better, trying to make films or images or music using a text prompt really does not seem like a valuable use of time, or a conduit to expressing my own ideas. Creatively it is a profound failure. I'm far more interested in what AI can do eg in medical & science fields. I actually suspect I am in a majority of preferring creativity where humanity is intrinsic to its creation, rather than data extrapolation. I hope thats ok? You seem very aggressive about the miracle of AI, its just the evidence that seems to be lacking.
 
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