rottoy
Plebeian
Why stop there? Bring back waterboarding and execution squads as well.
An idea to address forum toxicity in VI-C
- Thread starter Garry
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Garry
Senior Member
You are proving my point.
Yeah, but I wasn't looking for a snake pit, I was just looking to discuss sample libraries with other people who share a common interest, that's all. Perhaps learn from others who have been at this game longer than me and can shed some light on questions I might have.
To me, it simply means that the value of the discussion is degraded, such that the real pieces of information become difficult to find, hidden amongst numerous posts from people who have no interest in the topic, and are only interested in ridiculing others. I'm sure it wouldn't take me long to find an example...
...There you go, great example. No need for it, makes entirely unwarranted assumptions, adds nothing to the main objective of the discussion. Toxic.
Parsifal666
I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.
(noir dick voice): "Look, awright? Dis might be the seedier side 'o town, but we're not talkin' broads taking baths in their socks or anything..."
Let's just step back and consider - why are talking about toxicity now? And what do we define as toxicity?
Because the answer to those questions can be extremely telling. Is it extreme language and blatant disrespect for the opinions of others that characterizes toxicity? If so, yes that exists here, and it has for a while. So is it the poor reception to HZS that makes it a problem now?
Let's be absolutely clear - it is not toxic to publicize your negative opinions on a product. Let's assume I fucking hate HZS with all my heart. I can rant about it. I can tell you why it's awful. I can tell you why you should never buy it, not in a million years, and why I'd rather buy literally any other string library first. None of what I just said is inherently toxic. It's my own opinion, and I believe it wholeheartedly (or I would, if I actually thought that). If Christian sees those opinions as toxic, rather than the way I convey those opinions, then he's just worried about Spitfire's reputation, not toxicity.
I think we can all agree that the negative response toward HZS isn't some random concerted effort to spew Spitfire hate. There are many issues with the product and many people are truly disappointed. Do some people go too far? Yep. That's a problem. But I hope everyone is seeing toxicity as a general attitude that manifests clearly with the response to HZS, not as an issue with the response itself.
Bottom line: toxicity is not a result of opinion, but of attitude. Toxic Spitfire fanboys exist. Toxic Spitfire haters exist. If you find something toxic because it does not align with your own beliefs, you are the problem.
Because the answer to those questions can be extremely telling. Is it extreme language and blatant disrespect for the opinions of others that characterizes toxicity? If so, yes that exists here, and it has for a while. So is it the poor reception to HZS that makes it a problem now?
Let's be absolutely clear - it is not toxic to publicize your negative opinions on a product. Let's assume I fucking hate HZS with all my heart. I can rant about it. I can tell you why it's awful. I can tell you why you should never buy it, not in a million years, and why I'd rather buy literally any other string library first. None of what I just said is inherently toxic. It's my own opinion, and I believe it wholeheartedly (or I would, if I actually thought that). If Christian sees those opinions as toxic, rather than the way I convey those opinions, then he's just worried about Spitfire's reputation, not toxicity.
I think we can all agree that the negative response toward HZS isn't some random concerted effort to spew Spitfire hate. There are many issues with the product and many people are truly disappointed. Do some people go too far? Yep. That's a problem. But I hope everyone is seeing toxicity as a general attitude that manifests clearly with the response to HZS, not as an issue with the response itself.
Bottom line: toxicity is not a result of opinion, but of attitude. Toxic Spitfire fanboys exist. Toxic Spitfire haters exist. If you find something toxic because it does not align with your own beliefs, you are the problem.
Daniel James
o_0
I know, thats why I started with what I think Christian was suggesting about it being a place for his vlog viewers to chat. I think thats a great idea.
An alternative to Vi-Control I think is a bad idea. The level of toxicity here is actually pretty low compared to the internet as a whole. And the mods here have proven to be pretty unbiased in most regards. A company run hub would not be a place for free discussion. Look at the old SoundsOnline (EW) forums. They end up as little echo chambers of people agreeing which never helps to push any discussion or concern forward.
I am not saying Christian was implying an alternate Vi control, I am saying the notion of if thats what people think when they hear hub is a bad idea.
-DJ
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Garry
Senior Member
Yes, I agree completely. Dissent is not toxicity. To be clear: I didn't buy HZS, I defended Daniels criticisms, rebuked HZ for his comments, I noted that Daniel's unboxing/first look was largely confirmed by Reuben's review, and I encouraged Spitfire users to vote with their wallets to insist that trials demos and/or licence transfers are mandatory on their products. I'm also a Spitfire customer, and think they make great products, a couple of which I own.
I have nothing against dissent. I come from a Trade Union family - dissent is in my blood.
This is a broader question about the nature of Internet forums. We can either just roll over and accept that people's most base instinct is unavoidable in a faceless medium in which comments can be made and conversations derailed with no consequence. Or we can try to remove the aspects of this that facilitate the cowardice that underlies people's confidence in making statements they wounldn't dream of doing if they were identifiable. I'd like to remove the planks that support such cowardice, that's all.
Jay Panikkar
Active Member
@Garry
No, you are proving my point.
Anything and everything can be deemed toxic according to your standard. Anything posted in jest will be toxic. Any general statements and observations will be toxic. Any critique will be toxic.
My previous comment is clearly not aimed at you specifically but you sought to tactfully quote a very specific part of my comment to make it look like a personal attack for maximum effect.
And then deem it "toxic" and part of some grand problem in which you—and only those you agree with—are the moral arbiters. Only those opinions which you have deemed in advance to be appropriate are to be allowed.
What a primordial way of thinking!
This forum is not about you. There are thousands of people here from diverse backgrounds who hold diverse viewpoints and interests. By your own logic, it's toxic to suggest that those with certain viewpoints and interests should be filtered from the forum.
What is particular telling here is that this thread exists only because a random person dared to critique a product from a premium brand in which you're personally invested in and and many others dared to agreed with his critique.
We can go around in circles all day.
No, you are proving my point.
Anything and everything can be deemed toxic according to your standard. Anything posted in jest will be toxic. Any general statements and observations will be toxic. Any critique will be toxic.
My previous comment is clearly not aimed at you specifically but you sought to tactfully quote a very specific part of my comment to make it look like a personal attack for maximum effect.
And then deem it "toxic" and part of some grand problem in which you—and only those you agree with—are the moral arbiters. Only those opinions which you have deemed in advance to be appropriate are to be allowed.
What a primordial way of thinking!
This forum is not about you. There are thousands of people here from diverse backgrounds who hold diverse viewpoints and interests. By your own logic, it's toxic to suggest that those with certain viewpoints and interests should be filtered from the forum.
What is particular telling here is that this thread exists only because a random person dared to critique a product from a premium brand in which you're personally invested in and and many others dared to agreed with his critique.
We can go around in circles all day.
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Garry
Senior Member
We can, and you'll continue to prove my point.
So here's a test: since you don't like this idea I've proposed, then I won't see you back here on a thread that you think is flawed from the start, since it's definition of the toxicity it seeks to remedy is fundamentally flawed, in which I, and others like me, place myself as the 'moral arbiter', and that the very fact of me starting this thread is indication itself that I have major psychological problems and can't take the pressure in the snake pit. Surely with all that, you would have no interest in returning, or commenting further.
However, if instead your next post makes the same points repeatedly again, throwing further insults, then we'll know that you're here purely for the argument, and not for the discussion, and you will again prove my point for me. Only this time, you'll be shouting into a vacuum.
Yup, no toxicity on VI-C.
Jay Panikkar
Active Member
This is a forum in which I participate in. If anyone suggests that it be censored because they don't agree with certain things—especially an undemocratic and dangerously biased individual like you—then I will absolutely argue it.
Predictably, and once again, you are now attempting to play the victim so you can portray this as a personal attack. And in doing so, you have created the "toxic" thread that you wanted all along. Pathetic!
OP
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Garry
Senior Member
Yup... no toxicity here folks.
Robo Rivard
Senior Member
Toxic people should be used as human shields.
KEM
The TENET Guy
How about everyone grows some thick skin and quits getting upset over what a random person on the internet says. This is forum, and from what I’ve seen the most of the people here are respectful. This isn’t a forum like KanyeToThe where it’s all out brawls on every thread. Wherever there’s a lot of people there will always be arguments and a few bad apples, but that’s just the way things go. This forum isn’t even toxic.
davidgary73
Active Member
Use the ignore thread and ignore user function. This will help to cut off reading useless meaningless trolling post.
I'd just like to add my 2 cents. I suspect like many others, I'm not happy about being "an audience" at VI-C or "a sitting duck for social media sales and marketing, or to help sponsor the building of online celebrities and proclaimed experts". I just come here to get a balanced view of normal folk's experiences with ALL of the major sample libraries and synths, and any new gems that have entered the market. That simple. Level playing field. No sponsored opinion. No posturing or positioning. Edit: just to clarify, I'm perfectly happy with open and fully disclosed advertising.
Some people and some businesses need to get over themselves and their perceived branding on this forum, that's not why I come here. I feel better now......
Some people and some businesses need to get over themselves and their perceived branding on this forum, that's not why I come here. I feel better now......
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Christian is a genuinely wonderful human being, and I can see how he might feel that VI-Comtrol is "toxic", but I disagree with that premise.
The fact is that VI-Control has thousands of threads, only a relative hadfull of which some _might_ consider "toxic". It's not that hard to simply choose to not read threads that one considers counterproductive.
In my opinion, a lot of very nice, well intentioned people have difficulty tolerating it when other people misbehave with their speech. These sort of people tend to use what power they have to stop the misbehavior, and if they can't stop it, they eject--epitomizing the phrase "take their toys and go home". To justify their own intolerance, they label the whole thing as "toxic"/counterproductive/etc.
Nonsense. VI-Control is not toxic; calling it such is objectively unreasonable and an insult to this fine community/resource/"hub".
If you go back and look at Christian's history, he's a heavy VI-Control participant (and great contributor)--making around one post per day going back quite a while. Has he spent the last X years bemoaning the toxicity here? Probably not.
Even among these recent ostensibly "toxic" threads, there is a good deal of _excellent_ content and entertainment, and lots of good points made by all sides in their cross examination of one another.
Did things get taken too far? Sure, but it is easy enough to stop reading once one thinks things have gone far enough. The fact that a few people may have gotten their feathers ruffled in a few threads doesn't at all impair the virtue of this forum as a whole.
(In the same way, neither does an occasional bit of intolerance cause a genuinely wonderful human being to cease to be such.)
If one accepts the ethical prerogative of free thought/speech, one must also generally embrace tolerance for what one finds disagreeable.
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Jimmy Hellfire
Senior Member
It all started with HZ calling someone a twat and getting away with it. 
Nevertheless, for freedom of speech to exist in practice, there must be a healthy level of tolerance for rudeness--even to the point where tolerance it's self is viewed as an ethical prerogative.
For example, what if I am "rude" about the king/president/PM? Should such be tolerated? Probably so.
Geoff Grace
Senior Member
While I don't find this site to be toxic, I think I can understand why Christian would at this point in time. After all, HZS was by far Spitfire's biggest project ever with a massive number of strings and a newly minted software host for the library; and after all that work, he was met with a powerful wave of criticism leveled at the product, the company, and even at Christian himself—some of it personal. It must have been terribly frustrating.
We can set aside whether or not this was merited as it's been discussed ad nauseam. I'm just trying to imagine his perspective, to consider why he would describe this place as toxic.
It's to our benefit not to chase off people from the top of our industry who share their knowledge with the community. I've seen it happen repeatedly in other forums, and it's a significant loss. Granted, there's a lot we do to help each other; but Christian has a rare vantage point and he's been very generous about sharing his experience. I hope he'll decide to stick around.
Best,
Geoff
We can set aside whether or not this was merited as it's been discussed ad nauseam. I'm just trying to imagine his perspective, to consider why he would describe this place as toxic.
It's to our benefit not to chase off people from the top of our industry who share their knowledge with the community. I've seen it happen repeatedly in other forums, and it's a significant loss. Granted, there's a lot we do to help each other; but Christian has a rare vantage point and he's been very generous about sharing his experience. I hope he'll decide to stick around.
Best,
Geoff
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