Jimmy Hellfire
Senior Member
Has he really though? I wasn't in for the whole shit show so I might have missed something. Don't see why anyone would see the need to criticize the man himself.
An idea to address forum toxicity in VI-C
- Thread starter Garry
- Start date
- Status
Has he really though? I wasn't in for the whole shit show so I might have missed something. Don't see why anyone would see the need to criticize the man himself.
Geoff Grace
Senior Member
Nor do I. Christian alludes to such examples, though, in this post:
Best,
Geoff
Best,
Geoff
Daniel James
o_0
Also its worth mentioning that toxicity goes both ways. For example check the comments section on say Christians newest vlog or Homeys Spitfire walkthrough. You will find on one side that you have people commenting on the video or the product for good or bad, its a discussion about the video and its contents. On the other hand you have comments about me as a person, being called all sorts of names and commenting on my abilities as a composer. Totally irrelevant to the point of the videos but nothing more than a toxic response to defend their particular camp. I get the feeling that is the exact kind of Toxicity Christian hints at. Yet there seems to be little action being taken on their own videos. I feel a little practise what you preach wouldn't go a miss. I always tend to remove comments that are just trying to start a fight with someone or are attacking a person directly. If they disagree with me I will challenge it, but if they just leave Daniel is a douchebag, I am gunna remove it.
If comments against me as a person are allowed to stand in the current hub of their Youtube comments, I fear that this one sided 'toxicity' will continue to propagate in their 'protected' hub. Thats why I think VI-Control is important as it is. Sure you will get similar snarky comments like Christian + Spitfires youtube comments sections...in both directions. But here they can be called into question with more accountability, with an unbiased moderator to step in should things get either too off topic or too personal.
At the end of the day its up to Christian and Spitfire if they want their own hub for comments, but as it currently stands it seems like they should check the toxicity of their own community before labelling others as such. I did nothing other than take a first look at their product. I have not attacked any of them personally. I even engaged my social media audience specifically not attack anyone but to argue the points and to not take their comments outside of the Vi-Control debates. It would be nice to see a similar gesture from the other side of this whole thing, but I imagine seeing me get such a personal public lashing from their supporters feels good. Which I get, but I really expect companies and personalities of their caliber to rise above a little.
-DJ
Last edited:
Kony
Bad ape
Just to clarify, this is what DJ did yet it attracted a lot of opinions stating that it was toxic. So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a man-to-camera conversation doesn't prevent what some might consider negative commentary. I don't think the anonymity and bravado link is correct btw - I see people everyday in real life exhibiting the same amount of bravado with their opinions in the interests of saving face. Ricky Gervais addressed this perfectly when he said that people on the internet treat their opinions as facts.... But this can be extended into real life face-to-face conversations.
For what it's worth, I post on VI-C exactly what I would say in person although I have been accused of hiding behind an alias. As others have mentioned in another thread about identity, some post here under an alias in the interest of privacy. In terms of debate, I tend to favour the Bertrand Russell or Socratic form of dialectic enquiry - ie exploring all aspects, from all sides, negative and positive. Wiki sums it up better:
"A discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject but wishing to establish the truth through reasoned arguments".
The hub idea is an interesting one - but why wouldn't it be better (in the Spitfire example) for them to put more effort into social media to address any perceived negativity? I only ask because if, as it would appear, this is an exercise in brand management and damage control, then that would surely have to focus on this forum - ie hiving off to a Spitfire hub is not going to change anything over here at VI-C. And it's not going to change anything in terms of reviews posted by others on YouTube or Twitch and elsewhere. So why not tackle any perceived negativity head-on. I also have concerns about censorship in a company-owned hub....
If the hub idea is being floated to tackle recent events and to manage them in the future, that's not going to stop a YouTuber's 30,000+ followers from seeing his first look videos. I mentioned in another thread that Spitfire's efforts surely could and should have been focused on engaging with all of its customers to alleviate any issues and negativity surrounding the HZS release for example - and this should have been done prior to and after launch.
And all of this also depends on what the definition of toxicity is, and I think that would have to be defined first....
NoamL
Winter <3
I hear ya completely DJ.
It's a matter of trusting people to see through the shitstorm, no matter how attacked you feel. For example, can you trust people to take "Daniel can't write music LOL" in the context of it's an anon YouTube troll attacking someone whose music shipped in more than 6 million copies of MGS TPP? I think you absolutely can! Take pride in your work and achievements mate! These venomous comments cannot hurt you.
Not having the last word against everyone who attacks you, is not about "being the bigger man" or "turning the other cheek" or anything like that, it's just that you can trust other people to build their own models of what statements are credible & not credible. Sometimes some statements are so venomous and irrational that they're self defeating.
A really good rule to follow!
Last edited:
Desire Inspires
To the stars through desire....
Yes, do it!
Geoff Grace
Senior Member
Daniel, I can understand why you would find those YouTube comments to be toxic. I'm really hard pressed to see any value to ad hominem attacks in any medium, and it's easy to see the harm. You've weathered your own powerful wave of criticism in this matter. I imagine you must be quite frustrated as well.
Best,
Geoff
MatFluor
Senior Member
Forums are nice for "storing" information. Bit I personally think that we have more than enough forums already.
I'm a guy who grew up with the early Public Internet (I was born in '85). BBS and Pater IRC was the way to go. Meanwhile it shifted to discord. I love live chat for various reasons - and there's immediate moderation, because the mod can simple directly talk to the person in real time - "Hey, stop it" is often enough.
We on the linked discord have a friendly community, but we also keep trolls and toxicity at Bay - hard offenders get kicked or even banned if needed. Our "side community" grows and very very rarely had something like this. And if some opinions suddenly peak, a day later it's gone unless you want to scroll up like crazy. It's like a fight in a bar - a few hours later nobody cares about it. In forums there toxic threads float around for days, and some guy who thinks he's funny bumps the thread up again and the onslaught continues. Not so with Discrod/Live chat.
So @christianhenson my suggestion is simply a live chat. Preferably discord (text, but also voice chats in groups as well as direct video and audio calls) since they already habe a well working infrastructure and means for great control (channels and roles) and much more. Discord is free to use, you can use it with an Installateur Program or with the Webbrowser.
I'm happy on the VI-C discord server, great people, great community, learned tons since I joined many moons ago and had very good conversations. I don't tag the forum members who are on there, but we're a nice bunch. I don't need "yet another" community from CH, I'd rather get more people in our discord and do meaningful and quick moderation - the way it's done now. (I'm not a mod myself over there)
I'm a guy who grew up with the early Public Internet (I was born in '85). BBS and Pater IRC was the way to go. Meanwhile it shifted to discord. I love live chat for various reasons - and there's immediate moderation, because the mod can simple directly talk to the person in real time - "Hey, stop it" is often enough.
We on the linked discord have a friendly community, but we also keep trolls and toxicity at Bay - hard offenders get kicked or even banned if needed. Our "side community" grows and very very rarely had something like this. And if some opinions suddenly peak, a day later it's gone unless you want to scroll up like crazy. It's like a fight in a bar - a few hours later nobody cares about it. In forums there toxic threads float around for days, and some guy who thinks he's funny bumps the thread up again and the onslaught continues. Not so with Discrod/Live chat.
So @christianhenson my suggestion is simply a live chat. Preferably discord (text, but also voice chats in groups as well as direct video and audio calls) since they already habe a well working infrastructure and means for great control (channels and roles) and much more. Discord is free to use, you can use it with an Installateur Program or with the Webbrowser.
I'm happy on the VI-C discord server, great people, great community, learned tons since I joined many moons ago and had very good conversations. I don't tag the forum members who are on there, but we're a nice bunch. I don't need "yet another" community from CH, I'd rather get more people in our discord and do meaningful and quick moderation - the way it's done now. (I'm not a mod myself over there)
Last edited:
I can agree about the bidirectional aspect, but at the same time, I think you would be the first to agree that CH's vlog is not a "toxic" atmosphere.
I totally understand CH being insulted--not denying that; I just think that being occasionally insulted by detractors is a normal part of life.
mc_deli
n trepreneur
Moderate!
Move the rubbish into OT
Move the reviews, promotions and shilling out if Sample Talk.
Delete insults
Warn about posters who think they know what others are thinking - there's a lot of that.
And yes, take responsibility for our own part in the toxicity.
Musicians helping musicians, not this drivel, please.
Move the rubbish into OT
Move the reviews, promotions and shilling out if Sample Talk.
Delete insults
Warn about posters who think they know what others are thinking - there's a lot of that.
And yes, take responsibility for our own part in the toxicity.
Musicians helping musicians, not this drivel, please.
NYC Composer
Senior Member
An in depth topic that:
1. AGAIN is about Spitfire Audio in some way
2. Involves people arguing about whether they're arguing too much or "wrongly". Oh the irony...
Btw, I skipped to the end to make this pithy comment, as the idea of reading yet another 5 page self righteous thread was more than I could bear.
1. AGAIN is about Spitfire Audio in some way
2. Involves people arguing about whether they're arguing too much or "wrongly". Oh the irony...
Btw, I skipped to the end to make this pithy comment, as the idea of reading yet another 5 page self righteous thread was more than I could bear.
Dr Belasco
Active Member
Larry, aren't we a little too old to be in thread like this.
Jay Panikkar
Active Member
This "discussion" is deviating from the actual issue here.
A developer releases an overhyped and broken product that cannot be returned, or resold. A critic points out its flaws in a forum. The developer gets scrutinized by members of the forum for releasing an overhyped and broken product. And then the developer has the gall to point fingers at the critic and members of the forum when it is their fault—and theirs alone—for releasing an overhyped and broken product in the first place? This is utterly ridiculous!
That's the most annoying aspect of all this drama.
This has nothing to do with @Daniel James, his supposed evilness and "toxicity." Spitfire Audio has purposefully painted a giant bullseye on @Daniel James to distract from their bad release and deflect the negative feedback. If SA is actually concerned about "toxicity," they should address their own first. Or better yet, they should be subject to their own rules on "toxicity" and confined to the Commercial Announcement space with all their other content thrown out of VIC.
VIC has more than enough moderation to deal with actual issues. What makes VIC special is that individuals can agree to disagree all day without being destroyed by communist moderation. In the vast majority of cases, disagreements don't break out into a larger issue. In fact, more issues have been caused by developers making a scene than by the members at VIC. The current situation is no different.
@Arbee, as usual, is spot on.
On a larger note, the media/entertainment business is an extremely competitive market loaded with all kinds of rogues, iconoclasts, narcissists and worse. This is because weirdness, madness and creativity greatly overlap. It is an inescapable and inevitable part of any creative endeavour. You will meet people who may be radically different from you, who come from widely different backgrounds, who may be rude, belligerent and eccentric. If you can't tolerate diversity—especially in this creative endeavour—this may not be the field for you. Anyone unable to take the heat from a random post in a random forum in a random corner of the internet will be stepped on like an insect in this industry.
Stop playing with Play Doh and crayons.
A developer releases an overhyped and broken product that cannot be returned, or resold. A critic points out its flaws in a forum. The developer gets scrutinized by members of the forum for releasing an overhyped and broken product. And then the developer has the gall to point fingers at the critic and members of the forum when it is their fault—and theirs alone—for releasing an overhyped and broken product in the first place? This is utterly ridiculous!
That's the most annoying aspect of all this drama.
This has nothing to do with @Daniel James, his supposed evilness and "toxicity." Spitfire Audio has purposefully painted a giant bullseye on @Daniel James to distract from their bad release and deflect the negative feedback. If SA is actually concerned about "toxicity," they should address their own first. Or better yet, they should be subject to their own rules on "toxicity" and confined to the Commercial Announcement space with all their other content thrown out of VIC.
VIC has more than enough moderation to deal with actual issues. What makes VIC special is that individuals can agree to disagree all day without being destroyed by communist moderation. In the vast majority of cases, disagreements don't break out into a larger issue. In fact, more issues have been caused by developers making a scene than by the members at VIC. The current situation is no different.
@Arbee, as usual, is spot on.
On a larger note, the media/entertainment business is an extremely competitive market loaded with all kinds of rogues, iconoclasts, narcissists and worse. This is because weirdness, madness and creativity greatly overlap. It is an inescapable and inevitable part of any creative endeavour. You will meet people who may be radically different from you, who come from widely different backgrounds, who may be rude, belligerent and eccentric. If you can't tolerate diversity—especially in this creative endeavour—this may not be the field for you. Anyone unable to take the heat from a random post in a random forum in a random corner of the internet will be stepped on like an insect in this industry.
Stop playing with Play Doh and crayons.
Last edited:
rottoy
Plebeian
This part especially has been made evident with their open enthusiasm for @reutunes review of Hans Zimmer Strings, which covered a lot of the points Daniel made, while being openly spiteful of @Daniel James take on the matter.
Rubs me the wrong way.
Parsifal666
I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.
All respect to you and CH, but how do you know this? Do you know this person personally?
Some people would opine that kind of classification shouldn't be bandied about in an offhand manner. I'm guessing
a) you do know him personally
or
b) you're one of the most obeisant members here or
c) both of the above
I'm betting it's b) which means you think he's a wonderful human being because of his videos and appearences here. Wouldn't more variables be needed for that kind of declaration? Because if my theory's true, try to grab a quick breath of real air before you go back up.
There was a movie called Yonkers Joe, which wasn't the greatest but it had a scene where some kid who worshipped Mickey Mantle was laughed at by the local Mafioso. When asked why he was laughing, said Don asked him if his father couldn't pay the rent, does he think MM would foot the bill, or help in any way? No, in fact he would probably laugh and/or try to get away from you or call his security guard to escort you out.
That scene is one of the things that helped get me get out of the worshipping thing.
Henson is making money doing what he's doing. If he didn't he wouldn't be putting up videos and pushing things here. Everything else, including possible feelings of satisfaction over helping another, is a cherry on top. No more, but to be fair, no less.
Keep in mind, this is not a knock against someone trying to make a buck at all. It's simple reality.
You want heroes? There are far more deserving.
Again, no offense or disrespect meant to anyone here or CH (or Daniel James for that matter). I just dislike seeing misdirected fanboyism. If you just have to worship someone, go sing the praises of Mahler, Bach, Goldsmith...there are far more things you'll learn overall. Better yet, once you've absorbed what you need to know as far as handling your libraries, stay off this forum for awhile so you'll have enough time to study up on the latter three. That way you can become great for yourself (and probably know one heck of a lot more than the average Spitfire Sycophant here...no offense to the outright Sycophants either).
SF employees are just that. They work for you. There are things you might learn from them (hopefully at least some of which has to do with handling your sample libraries). But if they're your primary focus of admiration (or even fourth tier), you are climbing up the wrong hole, baby.
Better yet, do your own thing and not care about all these other people. The hero worship thing can be a very stifling rabbit hole if left unchecked by reason. To paraphrase Kreator "be careful who you choose to believe".
I predict that only folks who just got caught up in there will mock this post. If you dismiss this as cynicism, you'll only continue to go further up until any real creativity on your part is completely suffocated.
Make yourself your only hero.
Last edited:
Not just aimed at you - when I looked a little earlier there were people telling others to "f*** off, fanboy"
Maybe the general toxicity has caught them by surprise and there hasn't been a need up to now to moderate the comments on their videos? Also, the SF ethos seems to be to have downtime at the weekend (which is healthy, of course). Perhaps when folks get into work on Monday they will prune out the bad stuff?
Parsifal666
I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.
Sometimes I wonder exactly how much the influence of, say, Starbucks has on some of the forum posts here...and even in the impulse buys (and some of the demo and review videos) here. I've certainly seen at least one CH video where I'm not even sure he had any idea what the heck he was really talking about (I'll let you decide which one, unless it was rightfully taken down already). And tbh I kind of got that vibe from James' video as well.
I think there are at least a few folks here who are pounding down Red Bulls, with credit cards just burning a hole in their collective pockets.
Once more, no malice or condescension meant toward anyone, I'm simply speculating (and to some degree, on some points, playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of discussion).
I think there are at least a few folks here who are pounding down Red Bulls, with credit cards just burning a hole in their collective pockets.
Once more, no malice or condescension meant toward anyone, I'm simply speculating (and to some degree, on some points, playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of discussion).
- Status
